Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education Appendix to Appellants' Brief

Public Court Documents
July 6, 1965 - January 25, 1966

Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education Appendix to Appellants' Brief preview

C.C. Spaulding III acting as appellant

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  • Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education Appendix to Appellants' Brief, 1965. ac4eb1f8-c89a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/edbea3a2-b247-49aa-8b31-e9a19b917b60/wheeler-v-durham-city-board-of-education-appendix-to-appellants-brief. Accessed April 29, 2025.

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MnxUb ^tatrs Court of Appeals
F or the F ourth Circuit 

No. 10,460

W arren H. W heeler, et al., and 
C. C. Spaulding, III, et al.,

Appellants,
v.

T he Durham City B oard oe E ducation,
Appellee.

APPEAL PROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR TH E MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

APPENDIX TO APPELLANTS’ BRIEF

Jack Greenberg 
J ames M. Nabrit, III  
Derrick A. B ell, J r.

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, N. Y. 10019

Conrad O. Pearson 
M. H ugh T hompson 
W illiam A. Marsh, Jr.

203% East Chapel Hill Street 
Durham, North Carolina

F. B. McK issick
209% West Main Street 
Durham, North Carolina

J. H. W heeler
116 West Parrish Street 
Durham, North Carolina

Attorneys for Appellants



I N D E X
PAGE

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11 .......    5a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-12 .........      15a

Answer of Defendant to Interrogatories Submitted 
by Plaintiffs on September 3, 1965 .......  17a

Exhibit 2-B Attached as Answer to Interroga­
tories ...............................     20a

Exhibit 2-C Attached as Answer to Interroga­
tories .....................................................................  21a

Exhibit 2-D Attached as Answer to Interroga­
tories ................................   23a

Exhibit 2-E Attached as Answer to Interroga­
tories .....................................................................  24a

Relevant Docket Entries .................................................  la

Exhibit 4 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 25a 

Exhibit 5 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 26a 

Exhibit 6 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 27a 

Exhibit 8 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 28a 

Exhibit 9 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 30a 

Exhibit 10 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 31a 

Exhibit 11 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 32a

Deposition of George Reid Parks .............................  33a

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg ............................. 52a

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner .................  64a

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen ..................     75a



Excerpts from Transcript of Hearing dated Septem­
ber 23-24, 1965 .................... ...... ........ .......... ............ . 98a

Memorandum and Order Denying Intervention .......  298a

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools .. 302a

Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendant’s Permanent Plan 
of Desegregation .......... ................................... .........  315a

Plaintiffs’ Supplemental Response .................... .........  318a

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law and Opinion .... 321a

Order ...............      341a

Testimony
Plaintiffs’ Witnesses :

Myrl G. Herman—
Direct ...............      98a
Cross ............................................      114a
Redirect ................ ........... ........................131a, 140a
Reeross ...... .......................................................  138a

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—
Direct ____ __ _____ ________ ____ _______ __  146a
Cross ...............       166a
Redirect ____ ____________ __________ _____  191a

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—
Direct .......... ....... ...... ......... ........... ........... ......  193a
Cross .......... ....................................................... 201a

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—
Direct ............................................... ......... ..... . 211a
Cross ........................ ...... .................... ............. 220a

11

PAGE



PAGE

iii

Lew W. Hannen—
Direct ................................................................ 222a
Cross .........................................   273a
Redirect .......................      283a
Recross .................. ...........................................  285a

Elliott B. Palmer—
Direct ..................................     286a
Cross .................................................................  292a

E xh ibits

Plaintiffs’ Exhibits:
Offered Printed 

Page Page
65-1—Documents....................................._. 223a. *
65-2—Documents....................................... 224a 294a
65-3—Document ............................   225a *
65-4—Document ............................   225a *
65-5—Document ____      226a *
65-6—Document .....     227a #
65-7—Document .....       227a *
65-8—Document ......     228a *
65-9—Document ................     231a 296a
65-10—Document ...................    236a *
65-11—Document   ........... ......... ....... . 247a 5a
65-12—Document .......     248a 15a
65-13—Deposition ________ ___________ 249a 33a
65-14—Deposition _______   24-9a 52a
65-15—Deposition ___      249a 64a
65-16—Deposition ......     249a 75a
65-17 for Identification—Documents ..... 260a, #

Omitted.



Relevant Docket Entries
# # # # *

7- 6-65 R ecord on A ppeal—received back from Court 
of Appeals the record, transcript of testi­
mony, and Exhibits. Receipt acknowledged to 
Court of Appeals.

7-16-65 Consent Order—as to reassignment of pupils 
for the 1965-66 school years, signed by Judge 
Stanley on 7-16-65.

7-22-65 Conference— with attorneys held before Judge 
Stanley in Durham. By 9-1-65 ptf. to submit 
their Memorandum of Law with respect to 
their request for a permanent plan for elimi­
nation of discrimination. Deft, has until 
9-15-65 to respond. By 9-9-65 deft, to submit 
to ptf. the results of the study of the deft. 
Board with respect to employment and as­
signment of teachers and other personnel 
without regard to race or color; and a state­
ment with respect to its proposed capital im­
provement program for year ending 6-30-66. 
If ptf. objects to any proposed capital im­
provements, objections to be filed by 9-21-65.

H earing Set f o r — 23 September 1965 at 10:00 
a.m. in Durham. Following hearing, the Court 
will take under advisement matters still in 
dispute.

9-13-65 R eport— by defendants on Proposed Construc­
tion and Enlargement of the School Building 
Facilities of Durham City Schools.



2a

9-13-65

9-20-65

9-20-65

9-20-65

9-23-65

9-28-65

Repoet—by defendants of Committee Studying 
employment and Assignment of Professional 
Personnel.

*  *  *  #  *

Motion to Intervene or in the Alternative 
for Leave to Be Added as a Party-Plaintiff 
—by applicant North Carolina Teachers As­
soc. C/S attached.

Complaint in Intervention—received, but NOT 
filed; not to be filed unless court grants mo­
tion to intervene on N. C. Teachers Assoc.

Motion—of plaintiff’s that the court consider 
the claim of intervenor upon the same evi­
dence to be introduced by original plaintiffs 
in the hearing on 9-23-65.

* # # « *
Hearing—in this action & C-11.6-D-60, before 

Judge Stanley in Durham in accordance with 
memo entered 7-22-65 (filed 7-29) and pend­
ing motion to Intervene by N.C. Teachers 
Assoc. Oral arguments heard;

Motion to Intervene Denied.—Following wit­
nesses sworn and testified for plaintiff:
Myrl G. Heiunan—Rhode Island.
Joseph S. Hines—N. C. College.
Joseph P. McKelpin—N. C. College. 

# # # « = *
Memorandum & Order—of Judge Stanley en­

tered as of Sept. 23, 1965, denying motion to 
Intervene of N. C. Teachers Assoc.

Relevant Docket Entries



3a

Relevant Docket Entries

9-28-65 Memorandum & Order—of Judge Stanley au­
thorizing the Durham City School Board to 
proceed with the acquisition of school sites, 
renovation, etc. according to its report dated 
8-20-65, etc.

Copies of Orders mailed to attnys. by Judge. 
# # # # #

10-15-65 Deft’s Plan for Desegregation—of Durham 
schools, with cert, of svc.

10- 25-65 Ptf’s Response to Deft’s Permanent Plan of
Desegregation—with cert, of service.

# # * # *
11- 26-65 Supplemental Response—of plaintiff to defen­

dant’s permanent plan of desegregation and 
opposition to defendant’s proposed order ap­
proving the plan. W/Cert./Service.

# # * # #

1-19-66 Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and 
Opinion—of Judge Stanley dated January 19, 
1966.

1-19-66 Order—of Judge Stanley adjudging that:

1. That the “Permanent Plan for Desegrega­
tion of Durham City Schools” filed on Oct. 
25, 1965, is approved in all respects, said 
plan to remain in effect until such time as 
the deft. Board shall present, and be 
adopted by the Court, some other plan 
for the enrollment and assignment of 
pupils.



4a

2. That the application of ptfs. for an order 
requiring the employment and assignment 
of teachers without regard to race is de­
nied.

3. All previous injunctions issued by the 
Court shall continue in effect.

4. Jurisdiction of these causes be retained 
for the entry of such orders as are neces­
sary and proper.

# # # # #
1-25-66 Notice or A ppeal—of the plaintiff’s from order 

entered in the U.S. District Court for the 
Middle District of North Carolina 19 Jan­
uary 1966, with $5.00 filing fee. C/S attached.

Relevant Docket Entries



5a

2710 Stuart Drive 
Durham, North Carolina 
August 20, 1965

Mr. Herman A. Rhinehart, Chairman 
Durham City Board of Education 
Durham, North Carolina

Re: Report of Committee Studying Employment and 
Assignment of Professional Personnel

Dear Mr. Rhinehart:

This report is made pursuant to Paragraph 9 of the Court 
Order issued August 3, 1964 by District Judge Edwin M. 
Stanley, United States District Court for the Middle Dis­
trict of North Carolina, Durham Division, Case Numbers 
C-54-D-60 and C-116-D-60, which provides:

“ That consideration of the request for injunctive relief 
with respect to the hiring and placement of teachers 
and other professional personnel in the Durham City 
School System is deferred until after the close of the
1964-65 school term. In the meantime, the defendant 
Board is required to make a detailed study of the ad­
ministrative and other problems involved. If the plain­
tiffs still desire to pursue this relief, they may make 
a further application to the court at any time after 
the end of the 1964-65 school term, at which time both 
the plaintiffs and the defendant shall be prepared to 
express themselves fully with reference to all admin­
istrative and legal problems involved, including, but 
not limited to, the standing of the minor plaintiffs to 
question the policy employed by the defendant Board

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



6a

in the hiring and placement of teachers and other 
professional personnel and how the minor plaintiffs 
are injured or otherwise affected by such policy.”

As directed by the Court, this committee was appointed to 
make the study.

At a meeting on February 5, 1965, the committee discussed 
at length the information required for proper evaluation 
of this problem. The conclusions reached were:

1. To enlarge the information requested on the applica­
tion for position form in order to provide additional 
information to assist in upgrading the teaching staff 
of our schools.

2. (a) To provide a summary of The National Teacher
Examination scores of all teachers who had taken 
the examination.

(b) To determine the number of teachers who have 
not taken the examination.

3. To send a questionnaire to all members of the present 
teaching staff. A copy of the form is attached.

4. To request presently employed teachers who have not 
taken The National Teacher Examination to take both 
the Common Examination (designed to provide a gen­
eral appraisal of basic professional preparation, gen­
eral academic attainment and certain mental abilities) 
and the Optional Examination (designed to aid in 
evaluating the teacher’s preparation to teach in his 
chosen field) and require the Optional Examination. 
Cost of the examinations will be paid by the Durham

. City Schools.

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



7a

The committee felt that the information obtained from 
the Optional Examination scores would be of great 
value to the teachers and the school administration 
in determining the areas of strengths and weaknesses 
and would provide a sound basis for guidance for 
improvements in the areas of weaknesses.

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11

The Superintendent was asked to provide the information 
requested by the committee.

On April 9, 1965, Mr. H. A. Bhinehart, Chairman of the 
Board, and Mr. Lew W. Hannen, Superintendent, met with 
representatives of the classroom teachers and discussed 
with them Item 4 above. A  copy of the report on that meet­
ing is attached.

On June 18, 1965, the committee met to consider informa­
tion provided by the Superintendent.

1. Only minor changes were made in the Application for 
Position form. A copy of the old form and a copy 
of the new form are marked “ Old” and “New” and 
attached hereto.

2. (a) Teacher Examination scores are on file for 81 
teachers.

Number of Teachers

Teacher scores from 300-399
White

0
Negro

3
400-449 0 0
450-499 1 3
500-599 17 5
600-699 29 0
700-799 21 0
800-899 2 0



8a

The requirement of a score of 450 for certification 
of new teachers in North Carolina has been in 
effect since July 1, 1961. At a regular School 
Board meeting on April 3, 1964, the Board 
adopted a resolution requiring a score of 500 for 
all new teachers in the city schools as far as ad­
ministratively possible. All teachers certified by 
the North Carolina State Department of Public 
Instruction on or after July 1, 1961, who were 
employed by the Durham City Schools for the 
school years 1964-65 and 1965-66 had a teacher’s 
examination score of 500 or more.

(b) The National Teacher Examination has not been 
taken by 571 teachers in the Durham City Schools.

3. The results of the questionnaire filled out by the pro­
fessional personnel are summarized on a copy of the 
form and attached hereto.

The committee considered the desirability of ascertaining 
the attitude of parents toward the integregation of pro­
fessional personnel. We concluded it would be difficult to 
develop factual information in this area. A considerable 
number of white parents, however, has expressed to mem­
bers of the Board their dislike of having their children 
under Negro teachers. Some will reluctantly accept them, 
and others will resist them, even to the extent of trans­
ferring their children to other schools. During the past 
two years of complete freedom of choice for reassignments, 
the following developments are enlightening and we think 
should be considered.

1. No parent of a white child has requested assignment 
to a predominantly Negro school.

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



9a

2. Although, the Board has assigned a number of white 
children to predominantly Negro schools, in every 
instance reassignment has, been requested to a pre­
dominantly white school.

3. A number of Negro children has also indicated a 
preference for predominantly Negro school by re­
questing reassignments from predominantly white 
schools.

4. An analysis of the 531 requests for reassignments for 
the school year 1964-65 reflects the following:

(a) 201 requests for reassignment from predomi­
nantly Negro to predominantly white schools. 
(Most of these were for Negro pupils, but an 
undertermined number of white pupils was in­
cluded in this group.)

(b) 108 requests for reassignment from predomi­
nantly white to predominantly Negro schools. 
(All of these were for Negro pupils.)

(c) 91 requests for reassignment from predominantly 
Negro to other predominantly Negro schools. 
(All of these were for Negro pupils.)

(d) 131 requests from predominantly white to other 
predominantly white schools. (The majority of 
these requests was from white pupils, but this 
also included an undetermined number of Negro 
pupils.)

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



10a

RECOMMENDATIONS AND OBSERVATIONS

1. It is recommended that the Durham City Board of 
Education continue the policy adopted at its regular 
meeting on April 3, 1964, requiring a National Teachers 
Examination score of 500 for all new teachers employed 
in the city schools as far as administratively possible.

2. In considering the facts previously outlined, we are led 
to the following conclusions:

a. For the school year 1964-65 the Board of Education 
made the assignment of pupils to the various schools, 
after which all pupils had the privilege of request­
ing reassignment to the school of their choice. All 
the requests for reassignment were granted. With 
complete freedom of choice all the white pupils at­
tended the predominantly wdiite schools and approxi­
mately 94% of the Negro pupils attended the pre­
dominantly Negro schools. This gives substantial 
strength to the present policy of teacher assignment.

b. The questionnaire sent to the teachers were returned 
by 93.7% of them. The results, tabulated on a first 
preference basis, are self-explanatory and have a 
high degree of correlation with pupil preference 
above.

c. The present policies of the Board with respect to 
employment and assignment of teachers and other 
personnel have provided our school system with an 
effective program of education for all the pupils of 
our schools. The committee recommends that we 
continue our present policies, but that the Board in 
the employment and assignment of teachers and 
other personnel by majority vote of its members

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



11a

make exceptions to any of its policies for valid and 
sound educational reasons.

3. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools has 
recently approved for accreditation all of the elementary 
and high schools in the Durham City System. Accredi­
tation has been recommended by the Accreditation Com­
mittee for all the Junior High Schools except two. 
Shepard Junior High School is not eligible for consid­
eration because it is a new school. It is anticipated that 
accreditation of this school will be achieved next year. 
Accreditation for Holton Junior High School was de­
ferred pending removal of outstanding deficiencies. It 
is anticipated that the deficiencies will be removed dur­
ing the 1965-66 school year, and full accreditation will 
be granted. Many of the accreditation reports referred 
to the good rapport between teacher and student and 
an atmosphere conducive to learning. It is with a great 
deal of pride that we commend our administrators and 
teachers for this achievement. Obviously, none of our 
pupils have been injured because of our Teacher Place­
ment Policy.

4. Desegregation has been achieved and will be continued 
in the areas indicated below:

a. Supervisors, Principals, and Teachers’ meetings
b. Workshops and In-service training courses
c. Grade level meetings
d. Subject area meetings including all special subject 

meetings
e. Supervisory staff work

Respectfully submitted,

George R. Parks, Chairman 
Mrs. Annie Laurie Bugg 
Dr. Theodore R. Speigner

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11



12a

SUMMARY OF QUESTIONNAIRE FILLED OUT 
BY PROFESSIONAL PERSONNEL.

BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE CITY OF DURHAM

In compliance with an Order of His Honor, Edwin M. 
Stanley, a Committee of the Board has been giving careful 
consideration and study to the hiring and placement of 
teachers and other professional personnel in the Durham 
City School System. For the purpose of assisting the Com­
mittee in its study, the Board most respectfully requests 
that each teacher answer the questions set out below.

What preferences do you have regarding your qualifica­
tions and willingness to teach in the following situations? 
(Enumerate your preference 1, 2, 3, etc.)

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11

WHITE TEACHERS
I am qualified to teach: I am willing to teach

20 1. Integrated classes 29
16 2. Predominantly negro classes 4

180 3. Predominantly white classes 213
54 4. Any of the above equally 24 \ ^
53 5. No preference stated 53

Given a choice:
323 Total 323 Total

I am best qualified to teach: I am willing to teach
0 1. Retarded pupils (up to 70 I. Q.) 1
0 2. Slow pupils (70-90 I. Q.) 2

104 3. Average pupils (90UL10 I. Q.) 97
68 4. Advanced pupils (110-130 I. Q.) 71
18 5. Talented pupils (130-f- I. Q.) 17
36 6. Random grouping of pupils 34
3 7. Any homogeneous grouping 9

11 8. Any of the above equally well 14
83 No preference stated 78



13a

In what public school did you teach during the 1964-65 
school year?

.... 323 Total .... 323 Total

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11

Date:

Signature (optional)

Please deliver the completed blank in the accompanying 
envelope to your principal who will return it to the Super­
intendent.

SUMMARY OF QUESTIONNAIRE FILLED OUT 
BY PROFESSIONAL PERSONNEL.

BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE CITY OF DURHAM

In compliance with an Order of His Honor, Edwin M. 
Stanley, a Committee of the Board has been giving careful 
consideration and study to the hiring and placement of 
teachers and other professional personnel in the Durham 
City School System. For the purpose of assisting the Com­
mittee in its study, the Board most respectfully requests 
that each teacher answer the questions set out below.

What preferences do you have regarding your qualifica­
tions and willingness to teach in the following situations? 
(Enumerate your preference 1, 2, 3, etc.)



Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-11

NEGRO TEACHERS
I am qualified to teach: I am willing to teach:

40 1. Integrated classes 48
21 2. Predominantly negro classes 50
0 3. Predominantly white classes 1

206 4. Any of the above equally 160 f l
21 5. No preference stated 29

Given a choice:
288 T otal 288 T otal

I am best qualified to teach: I am willing to teach:
3 1. Retarded pupils (up to 70 I. Q.) 5
2 2. Slow pupils (70-90 I. Q.) 9

107 3. Average pupils (90-110 I. Q.) 97
21 4. Advanced pupils (110-130 I. Q.) 24
3 5. Talented pupils (130+ I. Q.) 4

26 6. Random grouping of pupils 17
13 7. Any homogeneous grouping 65
65 8. Any of the above equally well 43
48 9. No preference stated

In what public school did you teach during the 1964-65 
school year?

.... 288 Total 288 Total

Signature (optional)

Date:

Please deliver the completed blank in the accompanying 
envelope to your principal who will return it to the Super­
intendent.



15a

A MINORITY REPORT
PRESENTED TO THE SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE
DESEGREGATION OF THE TEACHING PERSONNEL 

AND STAFF OF THE DURHAM CITY BOARD 
OF EDUCATION

Me. Chairman:

I wish to make the following recommendation:

1. That the City Board of Education should authorize 
the superintendent of Durham City Schools to employ 
qualified and competent persons for all positions and 
jobs, regardless of race, color, or national origin.
A. To implement this resolution and to make for the 

widest possible desegregation of teachers, staff, 
and students the following principles should be 
enacted by the Board immediately:

1) That all supervisors of instruction be assigned 
to serve all city schools, regardless of race,

2) That all special subject teachers be assigned to 
schools, regardless of race or color.

3) That assignment of teachers for the 1965-66 
academic term shall take place wherever pupil 
desegregation has occurred or will occur for
1965-66, regardless of race, color or national 
origin.

4) That teachers for the ensuing academic term 
be assigned to elementary schools regardless of

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-12

race.



16a

5) That the Board shall authorize the appointment 
of a competent and qualified Negro Assistant 
Superintendent.

6) That the superintendent he authorized to inte­
grate all general faculty and principal meetings 
for 1965-66 school term.

7) That the superintendent be authorized to make 
immediate plans for the desegregation of com­
petitive sports in the city school system.

8) That the Board should authorize the employ­
ment of qualified Negroes for the offices of the 
Superintendent and the Business Manager as 
clerks and secretaries.

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-12

Theodore R. Speigner

, 1965
Date



17a

Answer of Defendant to Interrogatories Submitted by 
the Plaintiffs on September 3 , 1965

*  *  *  *  #

3. Q u e s t io n : State the number, school and grade of 
white children, if any, who attended predominantly Negro 
schools during the 1964-65 school year; state the number, 
school and grade of white children, if any, who are ex­
pected to attend predominantly Negro schools during the 
1965-66 school year. In each case, name the Negro schools 
and the number of white students per grade in each school 
having or expected to have white students.

A nswer: No white children attended predominantly
Negro schools during the 1964-65 school year. No white 
children are presently attending predominantly Negro 
schools during the 1965-66 school year.

* # # # #
17. Question : State the total number of new positions 

created in 1963-64, 1964-65 and 1965-66 and the total num­
ber of new teachers and other personnel who supervise 
pupils hired during that period to fill such positions. Give 
a breakdown of these totals by school, positions per school, 
race of successful applicants.

A nswer: Eighteen new teaching positions were created 
in 1963-64; sixteen new positions in 1964-65; and four new 
positions in 1965-66. The number and race of the success­
ful applicants for each of these years was as follows:

1963-64 White 10 teachers
1963-64 Negro 8 teachers

1964-65 White 2 teachers
1964-65 Negro 14 teachers

1965-66 White 3 teachers
1965-66 Negro 1 teacher



18a

Answer of Defendant to Interrogatories Submitted by 
the Plaintiffs on September 3, 1965

All of the white teachers listed above were assigned to 
teach in predominantly white schools, and all the Negro 
teachers listed above were assigned to teach in predomi­
nantly Negro schools, except that one white teacher listed 
for 1965-66 was assigned to Hillside High School.

W W w -7?
20. Question : State whether the Durham City Board 

of Education has issued a regulation to the effect that no 
new teacher will hereafter be employed who is not willing 
to work on a completely desegregated basis.

Answer: No.
* # % # #

22. Question : State the rules, procedures and practices 
(including copies of any written rules), with respect to 
transfer of teachers from one position to another, includ­
ing separate statements with respect to transfers initiated 
by teachers and transfers initiated by the school adminis­
tration for the good of the school system.

A nswer : The written policy with respect to transfer of 
teachers is attached hereto marked Exhibit No. 9. See 
Answer to Interrogatory No. 18 with reference to the fre­
quency of such transfers.

Teachers are sometimes transferred from one position 
to another, at their request, to facilitate travel if the trans­
fer is in the interest of the schools. Transfers are initiated 
by the school administration when it is possible to place a 
teacher in a position for which she is better qualified than 
she would be in her former position.

# # # # *



19a

24. Q uestion  : Describe generally the school board’ s 
practices with respect to selecting new teachers for the 
school system, i. e., the process of selecting those to be 
hired from among a group of applicants.

A nswer: New teachers are selected for the school sys­
tem on the basis of certification, experience, scholastic rec­
ord, recommendations, and a number of intangibles which 
include, among others, appearance, personality, general 
attitude, and apparent fitness for a given position. Per­
sonal interviews are required of applicants in order to 
determine the quality of voice and the use of oral English, 
and to detect any other strengths or weaknesses of the 
applicant which are not apparent in a written application.

25. Q uestion  : Describe generally the process of deter­
mining the specific assignments of new teachers hired in 
the school system.

A nswer: A sincere attempt is made to place each new 
teacher in the specific position for which he or she is best 
qualified and apparently will be most happy because a 
teacher who is happy and satisfied is most likely to con­
tribute most effectively to the school program.

Answer of Defendant to Interrogatories Submitted by
the Plaintiffs on September 3, 1965



20a

Exhibit 2-B Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
PRO JECTED  C A P A C ITY  OF EACH CITY SCHOOL 1965-66 (Exhibit 2-B ) 

Durha' C ity Schools -  Sept b er  13, 1965
School G rades Capacity *

i . Durham High 10-12 1770

2. H illside  High 10-12 1350

3. B rogden  Junior High 7-9 780

4. C a rr  Junior High 7-9 970

5. Holton Junior High 7-9 695

6. Shepard Junior High 7-9 595

7. Whitted Junior High 7-9 1430

8. Burton 1-6 745

9. Club B ou levard 1-6 680

10. C re s t  Street 1-6 225

11. E ast End 1-6 770

12. Edgem ont 1 -6 475

13. F ayettev ille  Street 1-6 660

14. H ollow ay Street 1-6 545

15. Lakew ood 1-6 420

16. Lyon P ark 1-7 600

17. M orehead 1-6 420

18. North Durham 1-6 420

19. W. G. P ea rson 1-6 965

20. E„ K, Powe 1-6 700

21. Y . E. Smith 1-6 640

22. Southside 1-7 380

23. C. C. Spaulding 1-6 615

24. W alltown 1 -6 285

25. G eorge Watts 1-6 420

♦Based on 30 pupils p er  room  in the p r im a ry  grades and 35 pupils per 
room  in grade 4 through 8 as room s are actually assigned .



1553

581

739

535

572

337

429

356

278

270

471

515

150

321

im

•k c;

ENROLLMENT BI GRADES 
WHITE

1965-66
September 13, 1965 - Monday

SCHOOL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
1

12 i

Durham High 514 528 511 i

Brogden Junior 192 188 183 Sp 18 —

Carr Junior 224 276 _ 239

Holton Junior 212. 162

i! 
i 

___
1

Club Boulevard 88 102 88 108 ____It ... 12

Ed g onion t 66 12 27 30 41 50
Sp 13 
Sp 13

CSIP * 
85

dEsaaaot

Holloway Street 85 71 74 65 62 _ i7 .Sp 12

Lakewood 56 58 63 67 68 44

Morehead 39 46 47 43 45 33 1_25

North Durham 46 48 44 38 47 47

E. K. Powe 85 86 78 76 85 61

Y. E. Smith 83 90 82 82 69 96 Sp 13

1Southside 19 25 22 22 ___ 12__ 20 15 Sp 10

' George Watts 52 _ki ____ 18 „ ____ 18__ 1____54_ T 24

TOTAL 619 579 563 589 582 554 650 627 575 514 528 511
102 _2S 18
753 722 532

ft
0<w83
0
M*

>IP is an ungraded primary group.

E
xhibit 2-C Attached as Answ

er to



ENROLLMENT BY GRADES 
NEGRO

1965-66
Monday, September 13 > 1965

%OOL
__

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
’

12 {

_J?*rham High 41 26
1

15

ogden Junior 15 14 8 Sp 1

_Cir*r Junior 57 71 55

_J<‘ .lton Junior 11 9 8

C-ab Boulevard

I-a'emont 7 5 2 4 4 2
Sp 2
Sp 4

~CSIF—  
5

SiiKE

n.-.Llov/ay Street 11 7 8 6 3 11 Sp 3

L.irewood 1 3 3

! K-:~ ehead 13 15 10 10 9 9 T 3

Ik/'th Durham 10 5 9 13 8 9

E, K. Powe 1 1 2 1

Y. E. Smith 1 2 1 2

S^uthside 2 4 4 4 i 1 5 Sp 1
f
1

GeiTge V/atts 2 8 ___ 3___j ____ L 1 T 2 _ 1t

T, m 47 39 42 43 35 39 88 94 70 41 26 15
. 1 4 _ 6 1
102 io o 42

!%:
Ixi-

/S O
\Sfi I

E
xhibit 2-D

 A
ttached as A

nsw
er to Interrogatories



23a

Exhibit 2-E Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
(E xhibit 2-E )

NUMBER OF PR O F SIGNAL PERSONNEL AT EAC SCHOOL BY RACE
Septem ber 13, 1965

ST A FF, BY RACE

SCHOOL White N egro

Durham High 80

H illside High 1 64

B rogden Junior High 28

C arr Junior High 40

Holton Junior High 27

Shepard Junior High 25

Whitted Junior High 48

Burton 26

Club Boulevard 23

C rest Street 9

East End 27

Edgemont 16

Fayettev ille  Street 21

Holloway Street 20

Lakewood 13

Lyon P ark 19

M orehead 15

North Durham 14

W. G. P earson 32

E. K. Powe 20

Y. E. Smith 23

Southside 10

C. C. Spaulding 21

W a lit own 10

G eorge Watts 15



24a

Exhibit 4  Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
JSXH J & IT  //

DURHAM CITY SCHOOLS 

JUNE 1965

NUMBER OF NEGRO PUPILS AT EACH GRADE LEVEL 
1964-65

SCHOOL ________1 2 3 4 5____6 7 S 9 10 II 12 Total

Durham High 1 ft 12 8 38

Brogden Jr. High 11 13 5 * 1 29

Carr Jr. High 30 67 40 137

Holton Jr. High 7 10 4 21

Club Boulevard

Edgemont 4 6 3 5 2 • 2 3 22

Holloway Street 4 5 7 4 5 10
*
3 35

Lakewood 0 0 0 0 2 0 2

Mo rehead 17 10 i i 12 5 8 63

North Durham 2 6 6 5 6 3 28

E. K. Powe 0 1 0 1 0 0 2

Y„ E. Smith 1 0 1 0 0 0 « i 2

Souths ide 2 1 3 0 0 2 1 9

George Watts 3 8 4 1 1 3 20

TOTAL 33 37 35 28 21 28 49 90 .49 18 12 8 408

* Special classes ___________7 Total

Holloway Street 1
Mo rehead 4
Y. E. Smith 1
Brogden 1



ia-tm&jtjj
-+//L r  0F  a/ £0/10 c s w ^ ^ s  A-rrt5A/c///& f z k o m  1 ///)//rj -i  W /nr£ sw ctn-^

Monday, September 13, 19&5

a y (2
SCHOOL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

I
i12 ,

Durham High 41 26
|

15

Brogden Junior 15 14 8 Sp 1

Carr Junior 57 71 56

Holton Junior 11 9 6

Club Boulevard

Edgeinont 7 5 2 4 4 2
Sp 2 
Sp 4

"C3TP
5

Holloway Street 11 ‘ 7 8 6 3 11 Sp 3

Lakewood 1 3 3

Morehead 13 15 10 10 9 9 T 3

North Durham 10 5 9 13 8 9

E. K. Powe 1 1 2 1

Y. E. Smith 1 2 1 2

Southside 2 4 4 4 1 1 5 Sp X
i
1

' George Watts 3 2 8 ___ 3___ ___ L _ i T 2 — li

TOTAL 47 39 42 43 35 39 88 94 70 41 26 15
14. 6 1

102 100 42

4~

ct>
o

o
<<i.ObCo

E
xhibit 4 A

ttached as A
nsw

er to Int



26a

Exhibit 5 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories

(E xhibit 5 )

NEGRO PUPILS
ATTENDING PREDOM INANTLY WHITE SCHOOLS FO R THE FIRST TIME

Septem ber 1965

SCHOOL ______________  ______  GRADE T O T A L
1
i 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 a.- 9 10 11 12

Durham  High S ch ool! 37 13 4 54

B roaden  Junior High 13 3 16

C a rr  Junior High 56 33 7 ...... 9 6

H olton Junior High 10 5 1 16

Club B ou levard 0

Edgem ont * 6 4 1 .....11 .....

H ollow ay Street * 11 6 4 1 ? 7
I

30

Lakew ood 1 3 2 6

M orehead 13 2 2 4 2 9 32

N orth Durham 9 3 4 4 5 2 i 27

E. K. Powe 1 1 1
i
i
I 3

Y, E. Smith 1 2 2
1! 5

Southside 2 2 3 1 1 4 : 13

G eorge Watts 2 1 1 1 ! 8

S p ecia l Education *

Edgem ont -  C laes 1  ̂ __________ ______________________________ _____ 3

Edgem ont -  C lass 2 2 2

H ollow ay Street 2 2-

Total 324



Exhibit 6 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
/ /  ('-

In terrogatory  #10

27a

T each er and su p erv isory  vacancies f ille d  during the 1964-65 sch oo l

term :

School Number P osition
Race o f su ccess fu l 

_____ applicant

Durham High 3 Ge rm an 
English
Home E con om ics

White
White
White

C a rr Junior High 2 7th M ath-Science 
7th M ath-Science

White
White

Holton Junior High 1 7th E n glish -S ocia l 
Studies White

Shepard Junior High 1 7 th M ath-Science N egro

Whitted Junior High 2 A rt
Spanish

N egro
N egro

Club B oulevard 1 Prim ary- White

C rest Street 1 L ibrary N egro

East End 1 P r im a ry N egro

Edgemont 2 L ib ra ry
Specia l Education

White
White

Mo re he ad 1 G ram m ar White

North Durham 1 G ram m ar White

Y. E. Smith 1 Speech therapy White

Souths ide 1 P rin cip a l White

G eorge Watts 1 G ram m ar White

There was one application  made at the tim e o f the vacancy fo r  each of 
the fo llow ing positions: C rest Street, lib rarian , Edgem ont, librarian  and 
sp ecia l education, A ll other vacan cies w ere filled  by applicants still 
available from  the lis t  accum m ulated during the preced in g  sum m er. It 
is im p oss ib le  to give a re a lis tic  figure on the num ber of applicants actually 
available because m ost of the applicants had a lready taken other teaching 
positions by the tim e the above vacan cies occu rred .



28a

Exhibit 8 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories

(Interrogatory No. 14)

Recruitment and Selection
4111

A. General Point of View

1. The outstanding educational program wanted in this 
district depends upon getting outstanding teachers 
and holding them.

2. This district can secure the kind of teachers it wants 
by an effective recruitment program based on alert­
ness to good candidates, initiative that results in 
prompt action, and good personnel practices in deal­
ing with applicants.

3. The effectiveness of our education program is best 
secured by assigning personnel where they work best 
in meeting the needs of the district.

B. Employment of Teachers

1. It is the responsibility of the Superintendent of 
Schools to determine the personnel needs of each 
school and to locate suitable candidates to recom­
mend for employment to the Board of Education.
a. It is the responsibility of the principal to report 

the personnel needs in his school to the Super­
intendent as early in the year as possible.

b. It is the responsibility of the principal and the 
teachers to assist the Superintendent to locate 
or recommend and to secure the services of 
suitable teachers.



29a

Exhibit 8 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories

The principal, with the help of the classroom 
teachers, must play the major role in locating, 
recommending, and securing outstanding student 
teachers.

2. All candidates for employment as teachers must 
make application for positions through the office of 
the Superintendent.

a. The Superintendent is responsible for the final 
selection of desirable candidates for recommenda­
tion to the Board of Education.

Whenever possible, each principal will be asked 
to interview those candidates judged by the 
Superintendent as possibilities for filling the 
needs of the principal’s school and to make recom­
mendations concerning their employment or pos­
sible assignment.

b. All applicants are to receive considerate and 
prompt service. Candidates will be evaluated 
on their merits and qualifications for a position; 
basic essentials sought are: Intelligence, train­
ing, personality, and interest in boys and girls.

In effect

January, 1965
Uniformly applied in hiring teachers and other personnel.



30a

4115
Exhibit 9 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories 

(Interrogatory No. 15)

Assignment and Transfer

The assignment of staff members and their transfer to 
positions in the various schools and departments of the 
district shall be made by the superintendent on the basis 
of the following criteria:

1. The needs of the school system as determined by the 
board upon the recommendation of the superinten­
dent;

2. Contribution which staff member could make to stu­
dents in new positions;

3. Qualifications of staff members compared to those of 
outside candidates both for position to be vacated 
and for position to be filled;

4. Opportunity for professional growth;

J  5. Desire of staff member regarding assignment or 
transfer;

6. Length of service in Durham City Schools, 

j These criteria are listed in order of their importance.

In effect 
May 24, 1965



31a

Exhibit 10 Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
\  h ; t j  i J -

Jr, f en -* tU  ̂ aXBSt 16
DURHAM C IT Y  S C H O aS

TEACHERS H IR E D  DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR EACH YEAR

SCHOOL 1 2 S 2 I9 6 0 1 9 6 1 1 9 6 2 1 2 6 1 1 9 6 4

D urh a m  H ig h 1W 3W 3W

H il ls id e  H ig h

B ro g d e n  J r .  H ig h 1W 1W 3W

C a r r  J r .  H ig h 2W 2W 1W 5W 3W

H o lto n  J r ,  H ig h 2W 1 ¥

S h e p a rd  J r .  H ig h IN

W h it te d  J r .  H ig h IN IN 2N IN 3N

B u r to n

C lu b  B o u le v a rd 2W 1W 1 ¥ 1W

C re s t S tr e e t IN IN

E a s t E n d IN IN 2N IN

E d g em o n t 1W 1W 1W 1W 1W

F a y e t te v i lle  S tr e e t IN

H o llo w a y  S tr e e t 1W 1W 2W

L a ke w o o d 1W 1W 1W 1 ¥

L y o n  P a rk IN

M o re h e a d 2 ¥ 1W

N o rth  D urham 1W 1W

W . G . P e a rs o n IN IN

E . K . Powe 1W

Y . E . S m ith 1W 1W 2W 3 ¥ 1 ¥

S o u th s id e 1W 1W 1W 1W

C . C . S p a u ld in g

W a llto w n IN

G e o rg e  W a tts 2W 1W 2W 1W

lye j/ /iO/tt /  s  rvi- J r  PI jCHM er-P p i ’JPA/i'  ////;.• p m /i p



32a

Exhibit I I  Attached as Answer to Interrogatories
/=■ / f> //
In terrogatory  #19

Durham City Schools
P erson n el who serve  in m ore  than one sch oo l

SUBJECT
TAUGHT

NUMBER 
OF TEACHERS

RACE
OF TEACHER

PREDOM INATE 
RACE OF 3CHOO

A rt 1 v/hite V/hite
A rt 1 N egro N egro

L ib ra ry 5 White White
L ib ra ry 2 N egro N egro

M usic 6 White White
M usic 4 N egro N egro

P h y s ica l Education 2 V/hite White
P h ysica l Education 1 N egro N egro

G eneral Supervision 2 White White and 
N egro

G eneral Supervision 1 White White
G eneral Supervision 1 N egro N egro



33a

-----4r—

Geobge Reid Pabks, a witness called pursuant to agree­
ment, being first duly sworn in the above causes, was 
examined and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Parks, state your full name. A. George Reid 
Parks.

Q. And you are a member of the Durham City Board of 
Education! A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been a member, approximately! 
A. Approximately six years.

Q. Mr. Parks, would you give me a brief resume of your 
educational and employment background during this period, 
during your work with the Durham City Board of Educa­
tion! A. My educational background, Accounting Major 
at the University of North Carolina, Class of 1935. I have 
been employed by Golden Belt Manufacturing Company 
since 1937. At present, I am President of the Company.

Q. Mr. Parks, do you have any academic training relat­
ing to schools or school administration or anything like 
that! A. No special courses in school administration.

Q. Now I understand you were Chairman of a Commit­
tee of the School Board which had the task of studying

—5—
the problem of employment and assignment of professional 
personnel and considering the matter of teacher desegrega­
tion, is that correct! A. That is correct.

Q. Could you give me a statement, a general description 
of the activities of your Committee, starting with when they 
were appointed and who served on the Committee, what

Deposition of George Reid Parks



34a

you did in terms of meeting, and so forth? A. I believe all 
of that is outlined in that statement, is it not?

Q. Well, some of it is. When was your Committee ap­
pointed, approximately? A. It was probably in January. 
Our first meeting was on February 5th.

Q. And the members of your Committee were? A. Mrs. 
Bugg, Doctor Speigner, and I. Mr. Hannen and Mr. Rhine- 
hart were ex officio members.

Q. There are three members of the School Board plus 
the Superintendent and the Chairman of the School Board? 
A. That’s right.

Q. I have a copy of a report dated August 20, 1965, which 
has, I believe, been filed with the Court. Was this the re­
port of your Committee? A. Yes, that’s the report.

Q. Now has this report and your recommendations in it 
been submitted to a full Board, a full School Board? A.

— 6—

Yes, sir, it has.
Q. And has the School Board taken any action with 

respect to it? A. They approved the report of the Com­
mittee.

Q. About when was that? A. It’s been very recently; it 
was on Tuesday, I believe, following this date. This was 
filed about a week before the School Board meeting. I 
believe it was the September School Board meeting. I be­
lieve it was—

Q. Yesterday was September 13th.

Mr. Pearson: August the 30th.

A. August the 30th.
Q. August 30, 1965? A. That’s correct. That was a 

special meeting.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



35a

Q. The report does not indicate anything with respect to 
the method or criteria for hiring new teachers, new em­
ployees as teachers in the school system. Can you give me 
a description of how it worked? A. Mr. Hannon inter­
viewed and employed teachers; I think that information 
should be taken from him.

Q. As part of your Committee study, did you make any 
study of this process? A. Not of the employment; not of 
the techniques of selection, no.

Q. Did you make any study with respect to the plaee-
—7—

ment of teachers in specific schools and positions within 
the system, what the standards were? A. Not in specific 
schools, no.

Q. All right. Did you make any study of the— Are you 
informed with respect to the recruitment program for in­
viting applicants to take jobs or what is done along those 
lines? A. I am generally informed but not specifically.

Q. What is your understanding? A. Brochures are dis­
tributed to a number of schools in this area, outlining the 
advantages of teaching in the Durham City schools; and 
the teachers in these schools make recommendations from 
time to time to people they know who would like to teach 
here; those are referred to the Superintendent.

Q. Do they invite applicants for specific jobs or invite 
applications? A. I don’t know.

Q. The application form, the one that’s marked “ old” 
and the one that’s marked “new” , are attached to your re­
port. And I notice that both of them ask for the race of 
the applicant and ask for a photograph. Did your Com­
mittee take any action with respect to that or any recom-

Deposition of George Reid Parks



36a

mendation with respect to the meeting of those require­
ments? A. No.

Q. Did the Committee decide to continue those, or dis-
—8—

cuss it at all, or what? A. There were minor changes 
made in the employment application form. Those were 
attached to show the minor changes that were made. The 
“old” has been in effect for some time and minor changes 
were made in the “new” . There are no significant differ­
ences between the two.

Q. That change you mentioned had to do with the ques­
tion about the National Teacher Examination? A. I be­
lieve that was one of them, yes.

Q. Do you know what the others were? I couldn’t find 
any others. A. Mr. Hannen may recall. I think I would 
have to make a detailed check of the old and the new in 
order to answer that.

Q. Well, we won’t take the time now. But getting back 
to the matter I asked before, what about this business of 
asking the applicant for his race and asking for the photo­
graph? Did your Committee decide that this was a thing 
that should continue on the form, or what? A. That was 
not discussed.

Q. Do you have a general idea, Mr. Parks, how many 
applications for new positions as teachers were received 
and how many positions were open, say, this year or the 
last school year? A. No, I do not.

Q. You wouldn’t know either the number of new teachers 
hired or the number of positions? A. No, I do not.

—9—
Q. Did your Committee use any of that information? A. 

No, we did not; we did not use any of that information.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



37a

Q. Do you know the basis upon which the teachers are 
paid in the system, the school system? A. Yes.

Q. What— They have a salary scale, do they? A. A 
salary scale and a supplementary salary scale.

Q. What are the variables, the experience, the number 
of years teaching? Are those— A. Both.

Q. Those are the two things that determine salary? A. 
A Bachelor’s Degree has one salary scale and a graduate 
degree has another. Of course, a graduate degree carries 
a higher pay scale.

Q. And within the scales-— A. Are years of experience.
Q. —years and experience teaching? A. Yes; up to 

thirteen.
Q. Do they count years taught in other systems other 

than in Durham? A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. Does the salary scale take anything else in account 

that you know of? A. I ’m not sure of your question.
Q. Are there any other things that determine salary

- 10-

other than years of experience teaching? A. No.
Q. And Degrees? A. No, not once they are employed; 

they do determine this scale.
Q. Your report contains references to the National 

Teachers Examination? A. Yes.
Q. Am I correct in understanding that very few of the 

teachers presently in the system have taken the test? Is 
that the fair summary of it? A. Our report includes all 
the teachers in the City schools who have taken the test 
who are employed at the time of the report.

Q. If you’ll look at it and just verify this. It indicates 
81 teachers have taken the test and have the scores on file 
and 571 have not taken the test? A. That’s correct.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



38a

Q. Your report also mentions something about the test 
now being required. Is it required of all new teachers? A. 
Yes, sir, it is.

Q. How long has that been in effect? A. It was passed 
by the North Carolina Legislature in 1961.

Q. I see. And it went into effect that year? A. Yes.
— 11—

Q. Well, have all the—And the minimum score required 
by the Legislature is 450 points on the exam? A. That’s 
required for certification.

Q. Now more recently in 1964, the Durham Board re­
quires a 500 score? A. That’s correct.

Q. For employment, is that correct? A. That’s correct. 
Q. Now has this been required of all new teachers who 

have been hired during this period in Durham? A. Yes.
Q. How about non-certified teachers? Are there non- 

certified teachers in Durham who don’t meet these require­
ments? A. I believe there’s one with a B certificate.

The Witness: Is that correct, Mr. Hannen? 
(Discussion off the record.)

A. (Continuing) I don’t know.
Q. Your report also refers to a questionnaire which the 

School Board or your Committee distributed to teachers. 
Do you have a copy of that? A. Isn’t that attached to that?

Mr. Nabrit: Off the record.
(Discussion off the recoi’d.)

Mr. Nabrit: On the record.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



39a

Deposition of George Reid Paries

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Was this form prepared by your Committee or for 
your Committee? A. For our Committee.

— 12—

Q. And was it distributed during the last school year? 
A. Yes.

Q. I ’m looking at a tabulation apparently—I think the 
report indicates this is a report of the first choices? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Did you make any tabulation of the total number of 
Negro and white teachers who indicated that they were will­
ing, either a first, second, or third preference, to teach in­
tegrated classes or classes of pupils predominately in the 
other race? A. These are only first choices.

Q. That’s what I thought. I wonder if you made a tabu­
lation of the other choices. A. No------

Q. Do you know how many teachers—for example white 
teachers—indicated as a first, second, or third preference 
that they would be willing to teach integrated classes? A. 
These are their first preference. No other second or third 
choices were tabulated. These are the only tabulations 
made.

Q. Are the original forms still available? A. Yes, they 
are.

Q. All right. Was there any other effort to inquire about 
the attitude of the teachers other than this questionnaire?

—13—
A. No.

Q. They were not asked whether or not they were will­
ing to serve on faculties with teachers of the other race 
or any question like that? A. As far as our Committee 
was concerned, there were no questions asked. This ques­
tionnaire was submitted to them, filled out, and returned.



40a

Q. The questionnaire indicates, “ signature optional” . 
Was that the case! A. That is the case.

Q. Now, Mr. Parks, what is your understanding* as to 
the pattern of teacher assignment on a racial or non-racial 
basis! On a racial basis now, specifically. Is it still true 
that there are no Negro teachers teaching any white chil­
dren in the system? A. That’s correct, 

y Q. Are there any white teachers who teach Negro children 
in the system? A. Yes.

Q. How many white? A. One.
Q. Where is that teacher employed? A. Hillside High.
Q. When did she take that post? A. The beginning of 

this school year.
—14—

Q. September, ’65? A. Yes.
Q. Is that the first and only such white teacher to teach 

\ in a Negro school that you are aware of? A. Yes.
Q. Did your Committee have anything to do with that? 

' A. No.
Q. Did your Committee have at any time any communi­

cation with the United States Office of Education about the 
matter of teacher desegregation? A. Our Committee as 
such had no such communication.

Q. As a member of the School Board have you— A. 
There have been communications through the School Board 
for the School Board.

Q. Would you be in a position to tell me what the situa­
tion is? A. Well, it’s a long story. I have quite a few of 
the memorandums here that we have received.

Q. Could I see some of them, or could you summarize 
what’s gone on first?

Mr. Spears: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

Deposition of George Reid Parks



41a

Q. Let me ask one or two questions: Has the Board 
submitted a plan or plans—proposed plans—to the Com­
missioner of Education? A. Yes.

—15—
Q. And have any of them been approved? A. No.
Q. Are they still pending? A. As far as I know.
Q. And of course you know there is an application pend­

ing? A. As far as I know, that’s true.
Q. What has the Commissioner’s office advised the Board 

with respect to teacher desegregation? A. Well, among 
the things, in the application for employment we can’t ask 
their sex, their race, we can’t ask for pictures; they are re­
quired to teach anywhere they desire to teach. Those are 
some of the most recent communications regarding employ­
ment of teachers.

Q. And have any of them been adopted by the Board as 
of now? A. No.

Q. If I could look at those a little bit later, please? A. 
I have plenty of them.

Q. Your report indicates that no parent of a white child 
has requested assignment to a predominantly-Negro school, 
is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. And that those white children who have been assigned 
to Negro schools have requested reassignment and have 
been granted? A. That’s correct.

—16—
Q. Hid that experience enter into your Committee’s 

recommendation on the question of whether or not to 
change? A. This indicated the attitude of parents and we 
submitted that as part of our report.

Q. I understand. I was just wondering what that meant 
to you? A. Well, as a member of the School Board, I 
think we are—I am obligated to try and serve the people 
in the community; their wishes, of course, are influential.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



42a

Q. Well, did yon take this as an indication that—yon 
I interpreted it to indicate that the white parents did not 
\ choose schools with Negro teachers? A. That’s correct.
| Q. Your report also says that with complete freedom of 
choice—I’m paraphrasing. A. Yes.

Q. —approximately 94 percent of the Negro pupils at- 
S tended predominantly Negro schools. This gives substan­
tial strength to the present policy of teacher assignment. 
Would you explain that? A. That means that most of the 
/Negro children prefer Negro teachers.

Q. And that conclusion was one of the bases that your 
Committee acted on to continue your present policy? A. 
Yes.

—17—
\

Q. Now your report says under the part that is Recom­
mendation 2c. that—on the second sentence, says, “The 
Committee recommends that we continue our present poli­
cies, but that the Board in the employment and assignment 
of teachers and other personnel by majority vote of its 
members make exceptions to any of its policies for valid 
and sound educational reasons.” What present policies 
were you referring to? A. The present policy of employ­
ment and assignment.

Q. On a racial basis, assigning Negro teachers to schools 
with all Negro children and white teachers to the other 
schools? A. Employing the best Negro teachers we could 
for Negro schools and the best white teachers we could for 
white schools.

y Q. And the reference to exceptions to that was that if a 
particular applicant came forward, you felt that the Board 
might make exceptions in a particular case, is that the idea ? 
A. I think that statement is clear. I don’t know what cir­
cumstance will require special consideration but they had

Deposition of George Reid Parks



43a

in mind making exception for valid, sound educational rea­
sons.

Q. In any event, the general pattern would be as before 
and it would only be the exceptional case that there would 
be any assignment of a Negro teacher to a white school or 
a white teacher to a Negro school? A. That’s correct.

Q. That was your Committee’s recommendation? A. 
That was the Committee’s recommendation.

—18—
Q. And that was adopted by the Board? A. Yes.
Q. By the full Board? A. Yes.

Mr. Spears: I don’t think he understands you. 
When you say “the full Board” , do you mean unani­
mous?

By Mr. Nabrit;

Q. I meant that was adopted by the Board of Education. 
A. That is correct.

Q. Was there a vote on that? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the vote? A. I believe it was five to one. 
Q. Who dissented? A. If there was a dissent, it was 

Doctor Speigner.
Q. Did Doctor Speigner join in the Committee report, 

your Committee’s report, or did he disagree? A. There 
are some areas in which he disagrees.

Q. They are not indicated on the report, are they? A. 
No. He didn’t ask for anything to be added to the report. 
He did not file a minority report.

Q. Did he file a minority report with the School Board? 
A. He filed a statement which he read at one of the Com­
mittee meetings. At the Board meeting at which this was 
approved, he filed that at our request.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



44a

Deposition of George Reid Parks

—19—
Q. Do you have a copy of that? A. Yes, I do.
Q. I take it that Doctor Speigner was in favor of faculty 

desegregation. He proposed eight steps listed here. Did 
your Committee, or sub-committee, consider these pro­
posals? A. Yes, they did. He read these at a Committee 
meeting.

Q. Did you agree with any of them or disagree with all 
of them, or what? A. The final agreement was as indicated 
in the report. That was the majority opinion of the Com­
mittee.

Q. Would it be fair to say that you didn’t agree with 
Doctor Speigner’s report? A. I think it’s obvious that the 
majority did not agree with that.

Q. One item on here refers to special subject teachers. 
What are they? Are they teachers in junior and senior 
high schools, is that— A. I—

Q. Well, I can ask him. A. That will be better.
Q. Well, what about integrating general faculty and 

Principal meetings? Have they been desegregated now? 
A. That’s covered in the report, the areas in which there 
is complete desegregation.

Q. Well, let’s go to that. Your report on page 5 says,
— 20—

“Desegregation has been achieved and will be continued in 
the areas indicated below: a. Supervisors, Principals, and 
Teachers’ meetings.”  Would you tell me what meetings 
those are? A. I believe that’s as clear as I could make it, 
Mr. Nabrit.

Q. What about the workshops and in-service training 
courses? What are they and who conducts them, and so 
forth? A. I don’t know who conducts them but there are 
frequently held workshops for new techniques in the vari­
ous courses for upgrading the staff. I don’t know the fre-



45a

quency of these and I don’t know who are the supervisors 
or the instructors.

Q. What are grade level meetings! A. First grade, 
second grade, third grade, and so forth; all the grades in 
the school come together for a meeting on a particular 
grade problem.

Q. You mean all the first grade teachers from the whole 
City! A. Yes.

Q. Well what’s the frequency of those, do you know! 
A. I don’t know.

Q. What do you mean by “Supervisory staff work” , that 
desegregation has been achieved in supervisor}' staff work! 
A. Well, to me that’s self-explanatory. It’s supervisors; 
their work is integrated.

Q. You mean the whites supervise Negroes. Are there 
any Negroes who supervise whites! A. I can’t give you 
the complete details because I don’t know.

—21—
Q. Did your Committee make any study of distribution 

of teachers and schools in terms of what schools had the 
number of most-experienced teachers, which had the most 
teachers of less experience, in terms of the salary groups, 
scales, and standards! A. That was not discussed.

Q. You don’t know which school has the teachers with 
the most experience and higher salaries and which have the 
lower! A. That was not considered by our Committee.

Q. Do you know! A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know, in terms of the Negro schools and the 

white schools! A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that! A. The Negro teachers are, on the 

average, higher-paid teachers than the white teachers.
Q. And that would he the function of experience! A. 

And Degrees.

Deposition of George Reid Parks



46a

'-N„.

Q. Degrees? A. Yes.
Q. What about certification? A. Well, they all have to 

be certified to teach.
Q. Did your Committee consider—or as a Board mem­

ber, do you know of any State laws or regulations of the 
State Department of Public Instruction which has a bearing 
on the matter of faculty desegregation? A. No.

—22—
Q. Do you know whether or not the allotment of teaching 

positions by the State Department is still done on a racial 
basis and they allot so many white positions and so many 
Negro positions?

Mr. Jarvis: I object to the form of the question, 
Mr. Nabrit, “Is it still done” . It may have been done 
in the past but I ’m not sure.

Q. What do you know about this subject ? A. Our Com­
mittee didn’t consider; you’re asking for my knowledge ?

Q. Yes. A. This year it was discontinued; assignments 
this year were not on a racial basis.

Q. You say “assignment” . I take it you mean “allot­
ment” ? A. Allotments.

\ Q. Allotment of numbers. A. Allotment of numbers 
■were not so many for Negro schools and not so many for 
'white schools.

Q. And that was action by the State Department of Pub­
lic Instruction? A. I assume it was.

Q. Have you made any study of the comparative test 
scores of Negro pupils and white pupils in the system for 
standardized tests? A. The Committee did not consider

—23—

Deposition of George Reid Parks

that.



47a

Mr. Jarvis: I ’m not sure I understood your ques­
tion.

Mr. Nabrit: I asked Mm about a comparison of 
scores of Negro and white pupils on a standardized 
test.

Mr. Jarvis: You asked him— All right.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Going back to the Department of Health, Education 
and Welfare, are you familiar with a document issued by 
the Commissioner of Education called “ Guidelines for De­
segregation” ? A. I ’ve read that.

Q. Did your Committee give consideration to the provi­
sions in that relating to faculty desegregation? A. No.

Q. You didn’t discuss this? A. No.
Q. Was that because you disagreed or didn’t want to do 

that? A. We didn’t discuss it; the question was not raised.
Q. Did you think about it individually? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you receive a copy of a so-called model desegrega­

tion plan issued by the Office of Education ? Have you seen 
that? A. I don’t recall that particular one.

Q. It looks something like this. Do you recall seeing it? 
A. Yes, I ’ve seen this. It’s captioned, “Plan of Desegrega­
tion” , not “Model” .

—24—
Q. Correct. You are referring to this document issued 

by the Commissioner. Did your Committee give any con­
sideration to the staff desegregation matters mentioned in 
this plan of desegregation and to the attachment marked, 
“Additional steps toward staff desegregation” ? A. It 
wasn’t considered by the Committee.

Q. It was not? How many meetings did your Committee

Deposition of George Reid Parks



48a

have, do you know? A. I believe they are all referred to 
in the report.

Q. All right. There were—February 5,1965, was the first 
\ one? A. February 5 was mentioned first; then June 18th 
\ was mentioned.
\ Q. Were there any subsequent meetings? A. August 16; 
that was the last one.

Q. Was the final decision not to ask the teachers already 
employed to take the National Teacher exam? A. That’s 
correct.

Q. One of the attachments indicate that the members or 
the representatives of four teachers organizations— A. 
That meeting was between Mr. Hannen and Mr. Rhinehart.

Q. I see. Did your Committee consider any programs to 
prepare teachers for teaching in a desegregated situation 
of any kind? A. No, to give you a direct answer to that 

\ - 2 5 -
question.

Q. Has any program along that line been undertaken that 
you know of? A. It was hoped that if the teachers would 
take this exam that it would point out some of their weak­
nesses, so that additional courses and instruction would be 
helpful in upgrading them, to bring them up-to-date. That 
was the principle purpose in suggesting that they take this 
exam.

Q. Do you know of any efforts by the Board to apply 
for assistance from the Commissioner of Education, finan­
cial assistance or technical assistance, under the Civil 
Rights Act of 1964, a provision for financial grants for 
School Boards who conduct such programs? A. No.

Q. As far as you know, there has been no— A. As far 
as I know, there has been none for the teachers.

Q. All right. Has there been any requests for assistance

Deposition of George Reid Parks



49a

in drafting plans, consultants to be furnished by the De­
partment? A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Do you know if there are any State agencies that fre­
quently refer teachers to you, or school placement offices 
that do that? A. I know some are referred from time to 
time, but I don’t know which ones or how many.

Q. Are vacancies and positions posted or listed by race?
—26—

A. Repeat your question.
Q. Well, if you have vacancies, personnel vacancies, are 

they listed in any way? Do you notify the public at large 
or anyone that you have so many vacancies— A. No.

Q. —and invite applications? A. No. Not about post­
ing vacancies. There has been some advertising done on a 
few occasions for teachers.

Q. Has the advertising indicated that you were looking 
for Negro teachers or white teachers? A. I’m not sure 
exactly how the ads read.

Q. Does your Committee know of any applications by 
white teachers to teach in Negro schools? A. That was not 
discussed and as far as I knew there was no knowledge of 
that among the Committee members.

Q. What about going out to the Board? Did such a re­
quest ever come to the attention of the Board? A. I don’t 
know of any.

Q. I ’ll make the question broader: or white teachers to 
teach in Negro schools or Negro teachers to teach in white 
schools. A. I don’t know of any application.

Q. Do you know of the Board’s considering any people 
for such assignments, any individuals? A. I ’ve mentioned 
one that was hired.

Q. Any others? A. Not to my knowledge.

Deposition of George Reid Parks

—27—



Q. What about other staff posts! A. What others!
Q. Were there any applicants for other Negroes to work 

in white schools and others—in other positions dealing with 
children? A. Not that I know of.

Q. Or whites in Negroes? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Is it correct that the present practice and policy of 

the Board, the School Board, is to assign only white per­
sonnel in supervisory, administrative, teaching, and other 
positions dealing with children in the schools—to the 
schools that are predominantly-white where white children 
attend? A. I can’t add anything to my previous statement.

Q. Well, what I was trying to get to, the previous state­
ment applied to these other jobs as well as to classroom 
jobs? A. I don’t know that that’s necessarily handled the 
same way. Are you talking about office staff, for example ?

Q. Well, counselors, librarians, visiting teachers. A. I 
do not know of any applications.

| Q. Assistant Superintendents, Principals. I ’m not asking 
i you about the applicants; I ’m asking you about the assign­
ments. A. I would assume that the assignment policy 
would be the same as teachers.

—28—
Q. Both Negro and white schools? A. That’s correct.I ,Those that come directly m contact with the children.*
Q. Has your Committee made any recommendation with 

respect to such positions? A. The recommendations dealt 
with the general principle, not with a specific group.

Q. Why was Doctor Speigner’s name on the report if he 
disagreed with it? A. He was a member of the Committee.

Q. Did he sign it? A. Not to my knowledge; he had an 
opportunity to.

Q. Did the Superintendent, at a recent meeting of the 
Board, recommend a Negro librarian or special teacher be

Deposition of George Reid Parks



51a

placed in a predominantly-white school? A. We gave 
serious consideration to it. That was not the application 
that he had. There was a librarian over, I believe, at East 
End that was considered for Lakewood School. However, 
a better-qualified librarian was found for Lakewood; and 
that did not deprive East End of their good librarian.

Q. Did the Superintendent propose this to the Board | 
and the Board turned him down? A. Yes, you might say 
that.

Q. The Superintendent proposed employing a Negro 
librarian to— A. No, not employing.

—29—
Q. Transferring. A. Transferring.
Q. Transferring a Negro librarian to a predominantly- 

white school and the Board— A. Well, no action was 
taken on it, sir.

Q. Well, did members of the Board indicate they dis­
approved of that? A. They indicated that he should see 
if he could find—if he could find a qualified, a well-qualified 
librarian, to fill that position first. This was before school 
started.

Q. About when was this? A. Probably a month ago. I 
don’t recall the date of the meeting that was discussed.

# # # # #

Deposition of George Reid Parks



52a

A nnie Laurie Bugg a witness called pursuant to agree­
ment, being first duly sworn in the above cause, was ex­
amined and testified on her oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Would you state your full name? A. Mrs. Everett 
Bugg, Jr.

Q. Mrs. Bugg, would you give me a brief resume of your 
educational background, employment, and work experience 
you have had? A. Well, I graduated from Duke Univer­
sity in the Class of ’36, majored in History. Other than 
that, primarily a wife and parent.

Q. And you are a member of the Durham School Board? 
A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been on the Board? A. Approx­
imately three years.

Q. And you were a member of the Committee Mr. Parks 
just talked about? A. Yes, I was.

Q. You were sitting in the room when I was questioning 
Mr. Parks? A. Yes, I was.

Q. Now would you look at a copy of your Committee re-
—5—

port? By the way, did you sign it? Is it your report? A. 
No, sir, I neglected to do that.

Q. Do you adopt it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is the report you are in favor of? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you study any of the material from the Commis­

sioner of Education on the proposed plan of desegregation 
as guidelines? Did you see any of those? A. I have 
tried to read each of it as it has come in to us by the week.

Q. Did you make any attempt to make recommendations 
by your Committee which were consistent with the things 
the Commissioner of Education sent to you? A. No, I

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg
•—4—



53a

made no such attempt. I don’t believe that any member of 
the Committee did; I’m not sure.

Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that your feeling 
as a member of this Committee and as a member of the 
Board was that present policies for assigning teachers to 
the schools should be continued? A. I felt that in view 
of the total information that I have that I certainly agree 
with the first part of our recommendation there in that 
we were providing an effective program of education.

Q. And for that reason, you thought you ought to eon-
— 6—

tinue your policies, is that correct? A. With the excep­
tions made in that recommendation in that last sentence.

Q. It doesn’t indicate what kind of exceptions might be 
made. Do you have any ideas about what kind of excep­
tions you would favor personally? A. Well, I think we 
made one exception and that’s in the record already since 
the assumption of that policy.

Q. Why was that done, by the way? A. Well, it was my 
understanding from the Superintendent that this was the 
best teacher available for this position at that given time.

Q. Would it be fair to say that the general feeling was— 
that is, the normal practice—you should look for the best 
Negro teachers available for Negro schools and the best 
white teachers available for a white school? A. I would 
certainly say that that has been our policy.

Q. And is it not your feeling that that should not be 
changed to the policy of looking for the best teacher avail­
able regardless of race for any school? You don’t favor 
such a change? A. Certainly not. But at this particular 
time, I think that any School Board member has got to be 
constantly evaluating his policies and do that which they 
consider best for the entire educational system.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



54a

Q. You say not at this time. What sort of changes do 
you think— Do you anticipate at some future time or 
what! A. I think that our recommendation there for this 
particular time is a very sound approach and one in which 
our students, our parents, and our teachers can have con­
fidence.

Q. You think that their attitude about this is one of the 
major things that leads you to that view! A. Whose at­
titude, the three that I mentioned!

Q. Yes. A. Well, I think that very definitely that al­
ways has to be considered.

Q. Well, what else! A. What do you mean “ what 
else!”

Q. The educational standards! A. I don’t quite get—
Q. Did you make any study of the effect on educational 

standards of desegregating! Did you make any kind of 
study to determine what might happen! A. Well, I think 
that— Of course, all along as I’ve said you do evaluate 
that. Now specifically this Committee, no, other than what’s 
included in this report.

Q. All right. Did you make any— Excuse me. Go 
ahead. A. I think you would note in there, in this meeting 
with the teachers, where it says that the morale there is 
very high right at the present time among the teaching

— 8—

staff, which is of benefit to the students. I think they are 
definitely.

Another place referred in there to the recent accredita­
tion which we have just gone through. And I believe that 
any Board member, any student, any parent, or any teacher 
who reads this certainly would have confidence that what 
we have is an effective program of education.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg
-—7-—



55a

Q. Do you know how many new pupils, new teachers— 
or generally speaking, how many new teachers were em­
ployed last year, new people this year or— A. No, I 
don’t.

Q. —or any year. Do you have just a general idea? 
Do you think it would be like a hundred? A. No, I  don’t. 
I couldn’t answer that. I know it has been published in 
the paper at various times, but I ’m not very good at car­
rying figures in my head.

Q. Well, I’m not asking you for a precise figure. Would 
it be your impression that it’s a pretty large number of 
people—new people each year? A. I think that would vary. 
I think that we had probably quite a jump the year that 
we were having accreditation of elementary schools when 
the quantitative standards required lessening of the teacher- 
student load.

Q. Did you consider changing policy for new teachers 
with replacing new teachers on a non-racial basis as dis­
tinct from the problem of transferring teachers? A. No.

—9—
Q. Did you consider those? A. No.
Q. You’re not in favor of that? A. I think that our 

recommendations following our Committee study is a good 
recommendation or I wouldn’t have voted for it.

Q. Were you at this meeting referred to by the previous 
witness where Superintendent Hannen proposed the Negro 
librarian for transfer to a white school? Were you at that 
meeting. A. I was at that meeting. Now I ’m not just ex­
actly sure whether that was a proposal or whether that was 
a suggestion. It’s a possibility.

Q. Did you say anything about that? A. I ’m sure I 
must have because I’m afraid I do at every meeting.

Q. About what did you say about that, if you remember? 
A. I don’t recall; I honestly don’t.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



56a

Q. Do you recall whether or not you were for it or against 
it? A. I was not in favor of doing that right at that time. 
As I had understood, this teacher was going to be moved 
from East End and I questioned—I don’t remember whether 
I orally questioned it or not but in my own mind I certainly 
questioned the advisability of taking the teacher who ap­
parently was doing an excellent job in her present employ-

— 10—

ment and moving her. This would bother me, whether this 
was to go from one predominantly Negro school to another 
predominantly Negro school or if it were a white teacher 
going from a predominantly white to a predominantly 
white.

Q. Did the Superintendent say whether or not this 
teacher was willing to be moved! A. I don’t recall ask­
ing that question or that question even being asked. I was 
thinking in terms of the student, not the teacher’s desire.

Q. This was a librarian, right? A. That’s right.
Q. You thought it wouldn’t be a good idea, as you said, 

at that time ? Why was that, at that time ? A. Why would 
you deprive the students in that school of this teacher’s 
services?

Q. Teachers are transferred, aren’t they, from one school 
to another? A. Considering the needs of both schools or 
the system, as the case might be, that is correct.

Q. Sometimes good teachers are moved just as bad teach­
ers are moved? A. Well, I’m sure this is true.

Q. And you have transfers for the good of the school 
system initiated by the Administration and those requested 
by the employees, don’t you, at all times? A. I don’t be-

—11—
lieve it’s quite that frequent, not all the time.

Q. Well, this happens with some frequency on occasions?

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



57a

Would you say occasionally? A. Occasionally, I would 
say.

Q. Have you ever voted in favor of any such transfer 
when the Superintendent recommended or suggested it or 
asked for it? A. Well, I suppose legally, of course, we 
approve or disapprove of any action of this kind.

Q. I take it your answer is “yes” ? Wouldn’t it be fair, 
Mrs. Bugg, that the principal thing that concerns you about 
that transfer is that this would be a Negro who is going to 
work as a librarian in a white school? Wouldn’t that be 
fair, that this is something that is breaking the pattern, 
breaking the chain in the system? A. I don’t believe I 
could honestly say that; no, sir. I don’t believe that’s so.

Q. Well, what was the main thing that made you opposed 
to it? A. Opposed to it?

Q. Well, I think you said you weren’t in favor of it. 
A. At that particular time.

Q. Yes. A. That’s correct.
Q. What was your main reason? A. So far the policies 

that we had were working very effectively. At that par-
—12— '

ticular time, this Committee was still making its study and 
I cannot see that this would have been a very judicious 
thing to have done right at that particular time until our | 
studies were complete on this.

Q. You didn’t make any study of that particular lady, 
did you? A. We were studying our over-all policy.

Q. The over-all policy was no Negroes in the white 
schools and no whites in the Negro schools at that time, 
is that right? A. Our over-all policy was that we had at- ; 
tempted to hire or employ the best Negro teachers avail- i 
able for the Negro schools and the best white teachers I 
available for the predominantly white schools.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



58a

Q. And what about the situation where— Do you know 
how many vacancies you might have a year—in a given 
year—and the ratio of Negro and white applicants for this? 
A. No, I don’t.

Q. What would be your view of what the School Board 
should do if you had four— Suppose you had more quali­
fied white applicants than qualified Negro applicants and 
didn’t have enough Negro applicants to fill the positions. 
Has that happened, do you know? A. I don’t know whether 
that happens, no.

Q. Do you know anything about the certification situa­
tion—or are the teachers certified in this State? A. Do

—13—
you mean that we have in this system?

Q. Yes. It is a policy of this Board that we hire only 
properly certified teachers, certified by the State of North 
Carolina.

Q. Are there types of certifications? A. I understand 
that a type A certificate is issued, a type B certificate is­
sued. I don’t know exactly in what category these teachers 
are that we cooperate with at Duke. They have their AB 
Degree on some particular subject and then they go back 
and get their Master of Arts in Teaching. Mr. Hannen 
could answer that. But I believe that’s sort of a special 
arrangement that’s been made by the State Board; and it’s 
probably called a B certificate; I ’m not sure about that.

Q. Well, anyway would you know enough about the sys­
tem to know whether there is one certificate that’s kind of 
higher or more qualified than another kind of certificate? 
Is that the idea? A. As I understand it, the State Depart­
ment sets up certificates based on several different criteria. 
I ’m not real familiar with that.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



59a

Q. Have you ever compared the certificates of the Negro 
and white teachers of this system! Did the Committee do 
that, for example! A. The Committee did not do it, no. 

Q. How does the hiring process work! How are the teach-
—14—

ers told that there’s a job vacant! Who do they get in 
touch with when they want to get a job, new applicants! 
Who evaluates them! A. Well, of course, Mr. Hannen can 
tell you a lot more about that.

Q. Your Committee didn’t examine that process! A. 
The process and the means used in doing this!

Q. Yes. For example, who does this! A. The adminis­
trative staff; Mr. Hannen is head of it.

Q. What are the standards used? Has your Committee 
looked into the standards used for hiring people? A. Well, 
of course, we have written policies on this, Mr. Nabrit,

Q. Do you have the written policies with you! A. Yes, 
we do.

Q. Could I have those, please?

Mr. Nabrit: Let’s go off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Does the Board pass on every teacher’s assignment at 
some stage or another? A. At same stage or another, yes.

Q. How is it usually done in the routine situation? A. 
Give me an example.

Q. Would it be fair to say that generally the Superin­
tendent presented you with a list of proposed new people

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



60a

—15—
and the Board voted on them en masse ? A. Are you talk­
ing about new employees?

Q. Yes. A. As I understand it, Mr. Hannen here or Mr. 
Rhinehart—Mr. Rhinehart would be better to answer that 
question, the techniques or procedures used.

Q. Well, let me ask you this way: Did the Board discuss 
any individual teacher assignments other than this Negro 
librarian and the white teacher who’s at Hillside prior to 
this school year? Did you discuss the individuals on any 

I other occasions? A. No. The questions usually asked Mr. 
! Hannen were as to how he was coming with filling vacancies 
; and if he’s having any particular difficulties.

Q. So the usual situation you wouldn’t know about every 
teacher? You wouldn’t discuss every teacher transferred at 
a Board meeting, would you? A. Who is transferred now? 
Are you talking about transfer or hiring new teachers?

Q. Well, let’s talk about both; transfers first. A. If this 
were going to be something that might—could possibly 
present a difficult problem, I assume Mr. Hannen would 
definitely bring it before the Board.

Q. Otherwise, you might vote on it without much dis­
cussion, is that it? A. Otherwise, he would proceed in ac-

—16—
cordance with the written policies of the Board.

Q. One last thing. Did you make any studies or give any 
consideration to problems that might be caused in changing 
your present policy to a policy of hiring without regard 
to race and assigning without regard to race? A. I think 
that is pretty well covered either directly or by conclusion 
in this Committee report.

Q. There’s nothing you would want to add? A. I don’t 
believe so.

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg

* * * * *



61a

# # * # #
Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mrs. Bugg, did the accreditation report—or the Asso­
ciation accreditation report have anything to do or say 
anything about faculty desegregation? A. No, sir, it did 
not.

Q. Did it discuss it either way or the other or say whether 
or not it would have any effect on rapport or anything like 
that? A. It did not mention it. It congratulated us sev­
eral times about the staff they did find at the various 
schools.

Q. But there was no mention of faculty desegregation 
in any report that you recall?. A. No, there wasn’t.

Q. What effect it would have on the rapport of the stu­
dents? A. It’s my understanding that these teams go in to 
evaluate the situation as it is, and they do make certain

—36—
recommendations and there are certain recommendations 
made. Now I don’t want to leave the impression that we 
don’t have weaknesses as well as strength, weaknesses 
throughout the system; and one of the reasons for having 
the evaluation and going through the evaluation is for the 
benefit of the teaching staff itself, the administrative staff, 
and the Board, to do just what it says, evaluate, “Where 
are we now; where do we need to improve,” things like 
this.

Q. Would it be fair to say that your idea is— You talk 
about morale and possible effect of desegregation of faculty 
on morale. Is it fair to say that your attitude is with a 
segregated faculty with a good morale that you’re afraid 
to desegregate them in that it will make a bad morale? Is 
that the idea? A. Let me put it this way, that from my

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg
—35—



62a

own knowledge before this accreditation team ever came 
in and then from reading so far the reports of this ac­
creditation team, that we do have good morale among the 
students, among the faculty, we have good rapport of fac­
ulty to faculty, students to faculty, faculty to parents; 
and that any step we take, any change, whether it be in 
the instructional program, whether it be personnel policy, 
whatever it be, be designed to improve; and that this 
would always be done with careful study, no matter what 
area we are considering.

Q. You think that many of these people are against
- 3 7 -

desegregation of faculty and with that reason you don’t 
want to do it? A. Wait just a minute. I didn’t under­
stand that question.

Q. You think that the majority of the parents, the chil­
dren, and the faculty are against desegregation of the 
faculties and for that reason it shouldn’t be done? Is that 
fair? A. I think that from the support we have had from 
the public and by the patrons of our schools and all the 
evaluations that we have, that we have an effective pro­
gram.

Q. You said you were willing to make exceptions to this 
for someone who was very qualified, but as I understand 
you you are not willing to make exceptions just routinely 
to have the full spectrum of teachers according to ability 
distributed in the schools without regard to race. A. 
What would we be seeking and what would we accomplish ? 
I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

Q. Well, I can’t answer your question. I ’ll just have to 
ask them. A. I ’m sorry.

Q. The routine cases, you are not willing to do it without 
regard to race; only the very qualified teacher, is that it?

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg



63a

Deposition of Annie Laurie Bugg

A. I hope that no matter how large onr school system gets 
that any action we take won’t just become a matter of 
routine. I think this could be bad.

Q. Well, the average new teacher that comes to work,
—38—

you wouldn’t assign her on a non-racial basis; only the very 
qualified ones, is that the idea? I thought that’s what you 
said in answer to Mr. Jarvis’s question. A. I don’t know 
which particular question you are referring to by Mr. 
Jarvis. I still say that I certainly hope that we are seeking 
and employing and assigning teachers for vacancies where 
they can not only do the most effective job but where they 
are filling the specific needs of their specific school.

# # * * ■*



64a

D octor T heodore R. S peigner  a witness called pursuant 
to agreement, being first duly sworn in the above cause, 
was examined and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. State your name, please! A. Theodore R. Speigner.
Q. Would you give us a brief resume of your educational 

background and employment background? A. Graduate of 
Talladega College with A B ; AM, State University of Iowa; 
Ph.D, University of Michigan. My Ph.D was received in 
Geography and Conservation and Conservation Education. 
I  served as an elementary school principal, as a high school 
principal, as president of Martin Luther College in Ala­
bama, and for the past eighteen years professor of History 
and Geography at North Carolina College; and at the 
present time, I’m serving as Chairman of the Department 
of Geography and Director of the Division of Resource 
Use Education.

Q. How long have you been a member of the Durham 
School Board? A. On January 13, 1964.

Q. And for the written record, you are a Negro, is that 
correct? A. I am a Negro.

—5—
Q- Doctor Speigner, you were a member of a Committee 

that made a report on teacher employment and assignment? 
A. Yes, I served as a member of this Committee.

Q. Would you describe for me in a sort of a general way 
the work of the Committee, what happened in the delibera­
tions? A. Well, we had three major meetings and of 
course each person—each member, rather, had the respon­
sibility of exploration and research as far as the subject 
under advisement was concerned. And, of course, at our

Deposition o f  Dr. Theodore R. Speigner
— 4—



65a

various Committee meetings we made analyses of what had 
gone before, what we had done, the information we had 
gathered from the Superintendent and the Administration, 
et cetera.

Q. Did you agree to the recommendations of the Commit­
tee to the School Board! A. No; I agreed in part 1 and 
2 a and b. And c, it had to be rewritten in order that this 
Committee’s report could be approved. After c had been 
rewritten, I concurred with these notations that a minority 
report, or a synopsis of my contentions concerning the fact 
that this particular recommendation or resolution generally 
did not embody any phase of complete desegregation in 
compliance with the Civil Bights Act of 1964.

Q. In other words, you took the view that the Committee 
did not recommend enough pertaining to— A. Didn’t go 
far enough.

— 6—

Q- —to faculty desegregation? A. That was my at­
titude.

Q. You had a written minority report? A. Yes, I had; 
and at the meeting the Board requested that I send a copy 
to the secretary so that we could have some copies for dis­
tribution; and I believe that each member received a copy 
of the minority report.

Mr. Nabrit: Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Nabrit: Counsel stipulates that the entire 
report and attachments of the Committee, dated 
August 20, 1965, will be Exhibit A to the deposition 
and that the minority report will be marked Ex­
hibit B.

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



6 6 a

(Discussion off the record.)

(The two documents above-referred to were 
marked for identification respectively as: 
Plaintiff’s Exhibits A and B.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. One of your recommendations, Doctor Speigner, in 
your minority report was that the Superintendent be au­
thorized to integrate all general faculty and principal meet­
ings for 1965-66 school term. What caused you to make 
that recommendation? What was the past practice? A. I 
made that recommendation with this in mind: The princi­
pal meetings had been integrated for some time but the 
general faculty meetings for the teachers of the entire

— 7 —

City system had not become a reality; and I felt that if we 
were going to move toward the process of integration of our 
teaching personnel that we should begin with our faculty 
integration. And that’s why I made that statement there.

Q. Are these the general faculty meetings at the begin­
ning of the school year? A. The faculty meetings and any 
of the general meetings that the Superintendent would 
think advisable to call during the academic term, because 
I think you have your school meetings—I mean your build­
ing meetings and there you would have individual faculties. 
But I had reference to the entire City system.

Q. Now what about your recommendation about desegre­
gation of competitive sports? Are they segregated, and 
what is the practice? A. Well, it is my observation that 
we do not have the integration of our athletic activities. 
In other words, the predominantly-Negro schools compete 
and the predominantly-white schools compete; and you

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



67a

never have that cross. And sometimes we feel that the cross 
is necessary if we are going to maximize the potential of 
good human relations and the development of all the poten­
tials of the individual; and this would be good for both 
the white and the Negro.

Q. This second thing on your recommendation mentions 
“ special subject teachers.” What do you mean by that? 
A. I have in mind here art teachers, music teachers, phy-

— 8—

sical education teachers, special intramural, even I think 
in terms of choral instructors.

Q. The paragraph number 4 mentions elementary teach­
ers. What about high school teachers! What was your 
feeling about that—-junior high school teachers? A. I 
think that it should be across the board. I mention here 
the elementary school teachers as a beginning but I think 
that it should be across the board.

Q. All right. Did you make an effort to read the various 
materials that—the guidelines set down by the Commis­
sioner of Education? A. Yes.

Q. And the plan of desegregation of teachers that he 
sent out? A. The Superintendent supplied us with copies; 
plus the fact that I did some researching myself and had 
the opportunity of browsing through our library; and the 
Office of Education sent quite a bit to our Department of 
Education at the College. And so I had a wealth of infor­
mation in this particular area, and particularly Title VI 
and Title IV, Title III, and Title VII.

Q. Did you make any suggestion to the Committee with 
respect to trying to adopt a plan that would fit the Com­
missioner’s guidelines? A. Yes. I made several sugges­
tions, but to a certain extent they were not heeded, to be 
frank. During the earlier days on this Board, I indicated

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



68a

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner

—9—
to the Chairman what I believed should be the guideline 
for complete desegregation of our City schools. And I still 
feel that we should make every effort to meet the criteria 
set up by H. E. W. so that we can have what I call quality 
education. And quality education requires financial sup­
port to a larger extent than we are able in many cases to 
provide for our youngsters in our system. .

Q. You mean they need federal funds? A. We need 
federal funds. I think that the citizens of Durham are 
taxed now to their necks and if we were to think in terms of 
eliminating federal support to our educational system here 
in the City of Durham that we would run into a bottleneck 
in the end. And therefore I believe it is also good human 
relations. I don’t think the Durham City Schools can live 
unto itself. No man is an island unto himself and neither 
is the city system. And since we are meeting with people, 
our graduates, our teachers, we need to understand and to 
work with others and to prepare our students with a broad 
outlook and a broad perspective; and this is the way that 
we can do it. Because there is only one thing that is perma­
nent and that is change itself. And so we have to change 
in order to meet the issues of this day.

Q. What’s your recollection of what went on in terms of 
the Negro librarian who was considered or talked of for

— 10—

a white school? A. The Superintendent made the presenta­
tion and at that time he indicated—if I recall correctly and 
I think I do— that there was the best possible person for 
that position and that person was a Negro. And that was 
the transfer that other members have indicated this evening.

Q, Was this a public meeting? A. This was a meeting 
of the Board?



69a

Q. A  meeting of the Board? What happened next? What 
was the— A. Well, there was various opinion expressed.

Q. Did you express yours? A. Nothing definitely was 
recorded, as such.

Q. Did you express your view? A. Yes.
Q. WThat did you say? A. I felt that it would he a good 

policy, a good omen, for us to begin. We had to make a 
beginning somewhere and I felt that this would be a begin­
ning, because it was also stated that Hillside High—there 
was a possibility of having a white person teaching over 
there. I thought it was good for equalization, at least, to 
make a beginning. And I was for it; I was one hundred 
percent for it, because I felt that—reading the guidelines— 
that if we were going to have desegregation we had to make 
a start somewhere and this was a good start.

Q. Did any other members of the School Board speak
— 11—

in favor of it? A. There were some expressions pro and 
con. I can’t recall the exact words of the individuals.

Q. Can you recall who supported it and who was against 
it? A. Well, as far as the idea in principle I ’m sure that 
we had at least another member of the Board that sup­
ported the contention that I had in mind that I announced 
a moment ago. But a majority were not in favor of this as 
a policy, as a beginning, and they felt it would take some 
time, that this was not the time. That wTas the consensus, 
more or less, that this was not the time.

Q. Was there a previous occasion when there were ap­
plications by white student teachers to teach at Hillside 
High, at a Negro school, and a Negro student teacher to 
teach at a white school? Did that come before the Board? 
A. Yes. As I recall, some young lady from Duke University 
was interested in doing some practice teaching at Hillside

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



70a

and I think that maybe a student from North Carolina was 
interested in doing some practice teaching in the predomi- 
nantly-white school.

Q. About when was that? A. Oh, that was during the 
spring.

Q. Was it maybe the end of last year? A. Yes, more 
or less; it was in that period of time. Usually the time, I 
imagine, when people are getting ready to do student

— 12—

teaching; and of course that could be either in the fall or 
the spring.

Q. My impression was it was before December 15th; is 
that— A. Before.

Q. Before December, 1964, is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened? Was there a recommendation on 

those requests? Did they come before the School Board, 
those other requests? A. Yes. One, the young lady from 
Duke University.

Q. She personally came? A. No, not in person. But 
she even, I think, contacted some members of the Board 
concerning her desire to do practice teaching in a predomi- 
nantly-Negro school.

Q. And was her request then granted? A. No, it was 
not granted. I don’t think that in the end it came to a 
vote.

Q. She never— A. No, she never.
Q. She never got the assignment? A. No.
Q. The Negro applicant never got the assignment? A. 

No, I don’t think that the Negro applicant really followed 
through; I think that ended by—

Q. Did you look at the questionnaires that your Commit-
—1 3 -

tee sent out after they were returned? A. Yes.

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



71a

Q. What about the second and third choices, did you look 
at them? A. No, the second and third choices were not 
proposed as such.

Q. Did you ever see the actual questionnaires? A. Yes.
Q. I mean the large bulk of them? A. Yes, indeed, the 

Superintendent had them right there on the desk.
Q. Did you look at them? A. Oh, I thumbed through 

them but not in what I would call a real research fashion.
Q. In other words, you didn’t make any tabulation? A. 

No, I did not; I just thumbed through a few of them.
Q. Do you think it’s fair to say that a majority of the 

Board—strike—a majority of the Committee took a view 
that most of the teachers and parents wanted to continue 
the same system, that they wanted to continue the same 
system, that was one of their reasons? A. I think that 
is expressed somewhat clearly right here in the report it­
self.

Q. Did you agree with that? A. No, I did not agree 
and I do not agree with it now. I think that I expressed it

— 14—
that the Board has to show leadership and we have to edu­
cate these other people to the need for change. We are to 
be the leaders. And of course I even mentioned the fact 
that oftentimes you assign people when you employ them, 
you assign them to where they are best qualified or where 
you want them. That is true in a firm and that is true in a 
business enterprise.

Q. Did— What did the National Teacher Examination 
have to do with desegregating faculty, in your opinion? 
A. Well, the Committee wanted to gather some information 
in order to carry out, I imagine, an effective program or 
an in-service program, I’ll say. They had to get some of

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



72a

this information as to the teachers who had passed the test 
and in order to upgrade them, that is necessary; and I 
think in that sense maybe it was good that we could get 
some data concerning the scores, their qualification, their 
abilities, and as such.

Q. You didn’t get much. A. No, we didn’t get much, 
that’s true.

Q. Very few; 571 teachers haven’t taken the exam and 
only 81 have. A. Well, we think in terms of the beginning 
of this requirement. The State Department of Education, 
I believe it was about 1961, really indicated that teachers 
would have to take the examination; and then from that 
time on, it went into effect. So it hasn’t been in operation 
—I would say, oh, about four years now.

—15—
Q. It seems to me—I don’t know—that all the teachers 

hired in the past four years must not have turned in score 
cards. A. Well, the Superintendent wmuld have to certify 
that.

Q. Doctor Speigner, the last part of the report claims 
that there is desegregation in some of these matters, Su­
pervisors, Principals, and Teachers meetings. Do you 
know what that amounts to ? A. I think that Supervisors, 
they hold their meetings, come in without regard to race, 
at least in recent months, I should say. I know that to be 
a fact. And the Principals have their integrated meeting. 
And I believe that this fall there was the beginning of 
Teachers integrated meetings—general meetings, I will 
qualify it.

Q. That was the first time, this was a general meeting 
of all the teachers in the system? A. According to the in­
formation that I have at my disposal, that the first time

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner



73a

that we had a general faculty meeting of all the teachers 
in the City system.

Q. What about the workshops and in-service training? 
What do you know about that? A. I don’t know very 
much about that.

Q. What about grade-level meetings? A. I wouldn’t 
know too much.

Q. Secretarial meetings, are they special subject meet-
—16—

ings? A. I imagine here that the teachers in the special­
ized areas would meet together, but I’m not aware. I think 
Mr. Hannen would have to indicate whether they are de­
segregated.

Q. You don’t know when it began? A. No.
Q. The same for supervisory staff workers? A. Same 

is true.
Q. Are there any Negroes employed in the central ad­

ministration office of the school building in any profes­
sional capacity? A. Not that I ’m aware. We do have su­
pervisors ; we have a supervisor, but—

Q. What does he or she supervise? A. She. And it is 
my understanding that her work extends beyond the bor­
ders of race for this ensuing year; that’s my understand­
ing.

Q. How about clerks and secretaries? A. I haven’t ob­
served any clerks or secretaries. That was one reason that 
I indicated in my minority report here that I felt if we are 
giong to carry out a program of desegregation that the 
teaching personnel and staff—of the teaching personnel 
and staff, that we should make a beginning by at least hav­
ing several persons of the Negro race in this particular 
administrative unit.

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. 8psigner



74a

Deposition of Dr. Theodore R. Speigner

Q. As far as you know, there aren’t any! A. As far as 
I know, there are none. I imagine there are janitors and

—17—
what have you, in that kind of work.

Q. Do you know where most of the Negro teachers in the 
system, the new ones, what school they come from? A. It 
would be my guess that they would come from North Caro­
lina, more or less; North Carolina College would be one of 
your predominant feeders for the City school system.

Q. And what about the white teachers? A. It would be 
my considered judgment that most of them come from 
Duke University, the University of North Carolina, and 
then because of the fact that we are in a center here you 
have a large percentage of white teachers coming to Duke, 
their husbands in Medicine or in Law or in the School of 
Forestry or something of that nature. They would come 
here and as a result they would cast their lot and find em­
ployment if positions were open. So you would have there 
a cross-section.

* # * # *



75a

Lew W. Hannest a witness called pursuant to agreement, 
being first duly sworn in the above cause, was examined 
and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, what are your— Can you describe your 
process for announcing vacancies for positions? What do 
you do along that line? A. We send out a folder regard­
ing the opportunities in the school system to practically all 
of the Negro and white teacher training institutions in 
the southeastern part of the country, inviting applications 
for teaching positions. We ask all members of our staff to 
consider friends that they might have or associates in pro­
fessional meetings that they might meet and be impressed 
by, to the extent that they might be valuable additions to 
our staff, and lend every effort to the encouragement to 
these people to apply for teaching positions in the Durham 
City schools.

When applicants file applications and there are particu­
lar positions vacant, these applicants are interviewed by 
one or more members of the administrative staff. They 
are referred to the Principal of the school in which the 
vacancy occurs, insofar as that is possible at the time. In 
other words, if the applicant should come in at ten minutes

—5—
to five in the afternoon, the chances are we would not 
send her to his home. If she’s an out-of-town person and 
has to return that evening, then obviously he wouldn’t see 
her; or if he’s on vacation; or if it’s a Saturday morning 
applicant. In other words, we make every effort to try to 
secure as many good applicants as we can. And, as was 
pointed out, we are extremely fortunate here in the fact

Deposition o f  Lew W. Hannen
—4—



76a

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen

that insofar as .white teachers are concerned, we have a 
tremendous number of applicants from all over the United 
States who come here prepared to teach and in most in­
stances with some background of experience, whose hus­
bands attend graduate schools at Duke or Carolina. These 

e people constitute a very large pool of applicants for teach­
ing positions which you do not have anywhere else in this 
State.

I think this is one reason for the statement by previous 
witnesses that unless we do have about the best teaching 
staff in the State of North Carolina, that that is certainly 
evidence of poor judgment on the part of the people who 
do the interviewing and selecting, because this additional 
pool is here.

Q. Well, do you announce vacancies for specific jobs, go­
ing back to the question of how you announce jobs. Do you 
announce vacancies, as such, in this folder you send out? 
A. No. This is a general announcement that there are 
vacancies available. And, of course, we have many letters

— 6—

of inquiry coming in from all over the United States from 
both colored and white teachers. And in replying to their 
requests with the application blanks, we state that we do 
have generally a number of vacancies, which is generally 
true.

Now this is brought about certainly to some extent, to a 
substantial extent, by the fact that these husbands whose 
teachers are here only temporarily, three or four years 
generally; and this makes for a larger turnover than 
would be true in some other situations.

Q. Last year, a year ago, you hired about how many 
new people coming in, just roughly? A. I would say that



77a

each year we jm ploy between 75 and a hundred new teach­
ers. This generally would be true on account of the turn­
over that we have and retirement. Now this would not be 
additional teachers; this would be both additional and re­
placements.

Q. These are new people f A. Correct.
Q. And this is with a teaching force of about how many, 

around six hundred and some ? A. Slightly more than six 
hundred.

Q. And about how many applications do you get, do you 
receive? A. I would estimate that that would be between 
five hundred and a thousand.

Q. Do you have any idea about this seventy-five to a
— 7—

hundred, what percentage are Negroes and what percentage 
are whites? A. I wouldn’t venture a guess in the per­
cent, but I would say that there are considerably more 
white applicants than there are Negro applicants.

Q. Are there more white vacancies than Negro vacan­
cies? A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. Could you guess at the ratio, or estimate? A. No, I 
wouldn’t guess at it; I think it would vary from time to 
time. There are so many intangibles, so many invariable 
factors. For example, one year you might have half a 
dozen to a dozen Negro teachers retiring and another year, 
it might be just the opposite. There are many variables. 
You couldn’t generalize, I think, with any degree of ac­
curacy.

Q. Now your standards, you discussed with Mr. Parks 
that you employ on the basis of experience and Degrees? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Those two objective factors? A. That’s right.

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



78a

Q. What is the basis for hiring, for selecting a hundred 
out of a thousand applicants! What are your criterias 
you employ? A. That’s a long story. Of course, many of 
these things are hard to measure, like personality that you 
detect from a person in an interview; that would be sub­
jective. There are many criteria by which you would judge 
these prospective applicants on, I think, many of them that 
you can’t possibly measure objectively.

—8—
Q. Well, what are some of the objective ones? A. Well, 

of course we have some set up by the State already, which 
you must be certified. We have one here set up by the 
Board of Education that she must, as far as administra­
tively possible, have a score of 500 on the National Teach­
ers Examination. These are examples of the objective 
type.

Q. Do you look at their grades in school, things like 
that? A. Oh, yes, sir; that is, if they are fairly young 
teachers. Now if the teacher has been teaching 25 years 
and we employ her when she’s age 45 to 50, then the col­
lege grade that she made doesn’t bear the significance that 
if she were a beginning teacher. That’s what I meant by 
the fact that it would take a long time to go into the de­
tails of this and it would involve, in every instance, factors 
of subjective judgment.

Q. Who are the people on your administrative staff who 
make these subjective judgments? A. Primarily the As­
sistant Superintendent, Mr. Phillips, and the Director of 
High School Instruction, Mr. Hollander, and the Director 
of Elementary Instruction, Mrs. McCracken. Now, of 
course, you understand, Mr. Nabrit, that the Principals are 
involved here, too; I mentioned that.

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



79a

Q. Right. Does your rule and regulation hook have some 
standards for this? A. There are some policy statements 
in the manual.

—9—
Q- What about transfers of teachers from one position 

to another, teachers and other employees, to categories, 
those that are initiated or requested by the teacher or em­
ployee? Do you have standards for judging those, and what 
are they generally? A. In general, what we try to do, I 
think, is fit a teacher into the position where she is hap­
piest as well as most content and best prepared. This is 
what she wants and selfishly we get in return the best 
teaching in that type situation.

For example you might have a teacher who has done 
her student teaching in the fifth grade, say. We don’t have 
a fifth-grade vacancy at the time; we have a fourth-grade 
vacancy. This, from every other standpoint, appears to be 
a very desirable teacher. We place her over here in a 
school, in a fourth grade, say, early in June. In July, we 
have a vacancy in the fifth grade. In the meantime, we 
have found an applicant who is very well qualified for 
fourth grade position. We contact that teacher and, by 
mutual consent, move her into the other teaching situation, 
solely on the basis that this is where that teacher prob­
ably will do the most effective job of teaching.

Now on the other hand, where transfers are initiated by 
the teacher, this could be brought about by convenience to a 
school, by personality conflict between a given teacher and 
principal, for example. It could be brought about by the

— 10-

fact that in some instances that a teacher is just in a rut, 
so to speak, in her own appraisal of her work in a given

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



80a

school and she would like to get somewhere else. And we 
give every consideration to transfers of that type and in a 
good many instances, grant them.

Q. Do you have a fairly good number of those? A. We 
have several each year; I would not attempt, there again, 
to estimate the exact number because it would vary from 
year to year. But there would be several each year.

Q. How about transfers initiated by the Administration 
for the good of the school system? A. Well, we have men­
tioned that; we mentioned that about the fourth and fifth 
grade teacher, for example.

Q. I see. Oh, I thought that was where the teacher 
wanted the fifth grade. A. Well, this was a case where 
we both wanted it; we did it not only to please her but 
selfishly because, from a standpoint of the school system 
at large, she probably would do the best job where she is 
happiest.

Q. Now what’s the certification system? Do all of the 
teachers employed in the past four years have a 450 score 
on the N T E? A. I think that is true. Of course, now 
that has been raised to 500, as you know, by action of the 
Board. If I might add here to clarify the question that was

— 11—

raised and not answered a while ago about the small num­
ber, apparently, of these teachers in that listing. You see, 
when this Act was passed—I believe I am correct—by the 
1959 Legislature, it was not implemented until July 1, 1961, 
as I recall. This was not made retroactive. This went into 
effect for teachers certified on and after that date. And 
in the meantime, between that date and the present time, 
we have employed dozens of teachers with experience 
enough that it exempted them from having to take that

Deposition of Leiv W. Hannen



81a

examination. And that accounts for the small number here; 
I think you will be interested in knowing that, the reason 
for it.

Q. Yes. Because there would be, in the five-year-period, 
maybe between four and five hundred teachers employed! 
A. Yes, but experienced teachers by the dozens.

Q. Who were exempted from the exam! A. Right.
Q. Are there any non-certified teachers, teachers who 

have temporary certificates, lower level certificates, and 
others or— A. We have a rather insignificant number, 
very few teachers, who are not certified by A or G certifi­
cates, A being based on the Bachelor’s certificate, the G 
being based on a Masters Degree plus three years of 
teaching experience. We also have each year several teach­
ers from Duke University in the Master of Arts in Teach­
ing program there. These teachers are given full status as 
teachers under a special arrangement with the State De-

— 12—

partment of Public Instruction under which they teach on 
a B certificate, with the expectation that they will complete 
a Masters Degree during the first year that they are teach­
ing and then in subsequent years will have an A certificate 
and eventually after three years experience a—and even­
tually a G certificate.

Q. You mean you’ve got three kinds of certificates, A, B, 
and G! Is that it! A. There are other lower certificates, 
which we don’t have involved in our teaching staff. That is, 
there are substandard certificates. We just don’t employ 
those teachers.

Deposition of Lew W. ffannen

(Discussion off the record.)



82a

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Did you meet with the Committee? A, Yes, sir.
Q. Did you recommend to the Committee that they adopt 

this report? Or was that just their activity? A. I was 
there in a consultant capacity and to furnish any informa­
tion requested by the Committee for the study and com­
pilation of the report.

Q. Have you made any general recommendation to the 
School Board about faculty desegregation, the principle 
of i t l  A. We have simply stated, from time to time, to 
the Board that in our opinion this appeared to be inevitable 

! sooner or later; and I don’t know that I could define 
I “ sooner” or “later” very accurately.
W  - 1 3 -

Q. Could you give us your recollection about the Negro 
librarian that everybody has talked about, the transfer of 
the Negro librarian? A. At the time we discussed that 
with the Board, we had searched over a period of weeks for 
a librarian for the Lakewood School. It appeared from— 

Q. Well, just to interrupt you. Had the previous librar­
ian left or something? A. Yes. There was a vacancy. We 
had tried to secure a librarian and had been unsuccessful. 
It appeared also in the light of past experience that it might 
be easier to find a Negro librarian than a white librarian 
at some time in the immediate future.

In the light of that supposition, we talked with the Direc­
tor of Libraries of the City Schools. She appeared to be 
reluctant to take a chance on putting an unknown in that 
particular school as over against transfer of a known, out­
standing librarian. We stated the situation to the Board 
for its consideration and indicated that the Director of 
Libraries—I think we indicated this—I talked with this



83a

young lady and she said that she would give consideration 
to accepting this appointment if it were offered; she made 
no firm commitment that she would accept it.

Now I am supposing here in what the thinking of the 
majority of the members of the Board was at that time 
from informal conversations, rather than direct official ae-

—14—
tion of the Board. And this is supposition largely. There 
appeared to be some reluctance on the part of the Board 
to make this appointment on the ground that here you 
would be transferring an outstanding librarian from a 
predominantly-Negro school to a predominantly-white 
school and thereby denying the right—you might say—of 
these children to continue to have an outstanding librarian 
in the light of the fact that there was not available at that 
time a replacement of equal quality in that particular situ­
ation.

I think there was also very evident the feeling that this 
might be—might not be out of the picture entirely. But at 
that particular time when the Committee was still making 
a study of the securing and placement of teachers, librar­
ians and other personnel, that we might well wait to see 
what the Committee was going to report on this.

I think there also might have been taken into considera­
tion the fact that this very question was pending in the 
Courts at the time. As I say now, this is all supposition; 
there’s no record to this.

Q. Well, can you recall what was said that night when 
they made a decision? A. No, I don’t; I do not recall.

Q. You don’t recall anything, what was said? A. I think 
that this decision hinged largely upon a feeling that this 
was an inopportune time. And of course I made it clear—

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



84a

Deposition of Letv W. Hannen

—15—
Q. That was the impression you got that night? A. 

That was the impression I got.
Q. That it wasn’t the time to do this? A. That’s correct. 

And I think also the Board shared the feeling which I 
haven’t possibly expressed—I’m not sure—on this point: 
that a qualified librarian might just as well, at this par­
ticular instance and from this particular time, show up 
from the white applicants as from among the Negro ap­
plicants. In other words, I couldn’t predict what’s going 
to happen next week. All I could do was go on what our 
experience had been in the past and the likelihood of 

] another qualified applicant appearing would be more likely 
| to be a Negro applicant than a white applicant at that par­

ticular time.
Q. Well, after that meeting, did you subsequently find a 

white applicant and hire her? A. Yes, sir, a very well- 
qualified white applicant. This surprised me, I might add.

Q. Did you make any effort to get a balance in the various 
schools in the system in experienced teachers, teachers with 
higher Degrees? Did you try to balance them around the 
schools? Did you make any surveys to see what the situa­
tion is, for example? A. You can’t generalize there either 
because this would vary from year to year. But in general,

—  - 10 -
jof course, your more experienced teachers, as a whole, 

4 would be m~tfie predominantly-Negro school system as com­
pared to the predominantly-white schools, as a whole, on 

' account of this tremendous turnover in the white schools 
because of the wives teaching of the Carolina and Duke 
University students.

Q. Would you have readily available a breakdown by 
schools and experience and—Could you do that? Could



85a

you tell us pretty much what the salary schedule is, which 
schools have most experienced teachers in white schools, in 
experience and training? A. Yes, but I don’t know 
whether that would be worth much because as I said it 
would vary from year to year. Now you. could have, for 
example, in one of the schools you could have possibly a 
couple of new teachers in a given year, and then the next 
year you might have eight or ten. I don’t see that that fac­
tor is constant enough to be worth anything. But in general 
it is true that, as I say, the higher salaries we pay to Negro 
teachers, and the reason for that, as I say now, is once you 
get them, you have them. Once you get a white teacher, that 
is not true. Because those who have husbands, for example, 
at Duke University are going with their husbands when 
they leave. And then you have to do all over again. But 
we do believe that we get some of our very best teachers 
among this group because they come in from all over the 
United States, bringing new ideas, new school systems,

—17—
they are young, and they have an extra challenge to do a 
good job because their husbands are not going to stay in 
school unless they do. And we find these teachers generally 
to be a very satisfactory group.

Q. I understand there is a letter that goes out with the 
application forms to teachers? A. Yes.

Q. Is that a standard form letter? A. It indicates how 
to be certified.

Q. I would like to see a copy of that. A. We’ll get that. 
We’ll get several and give them to you.

Q. How did the white teacher come to be hired at Hill­
side High School this year? A. Because this was the best 
teacher available at the time in that particular position.

Deposition of Lew TV. Hannen



86a

Q. What was the job? A. English teaching, teaching 
advanced outstanding students.

Q. Was that teacher also mentioned in the same meeting 
with the librarian, in the same one that had the discussion 
of the librarian? A. I think so.

Q. Was a decision made then to hire her, or subse­
quently? A. No, the decision was not made until the 
Board changed its policy. And the Board sanctioned this 
as the first exception to the—I think Doctor Speigner indi­
cated this to the policy of white teachers in predomi-

— 18—

nantly-white schools and Negro teachers in predominantly- 
Negro schools.

Q. How do you stand with H. E. W. on the teacher de­
segregation matter? Have you been negotiating with them 
about it? A. Yes, we have. I don’t know where we stand.

Q. All right. Well, have you submitted more than one 
plan to them or what? A. Yes, we’ve submitted materials 
a number of times. I spent one whole morning in Washing­
ton with Mr. Mordecai Johnson, an attorney from the Jus­
tice Department, trying to find out why our plan had not 
been approved. And it appeared at the time that they were 
not interested in any plans that we submitted as much as 
they were in getting our signature on the so-called model 
plan that they had proposed. And that’s where the matter 
stands at the present time.

We have not been denied and we have not been approved.
Q. You are familiar with the fact that the Commis­

sioner’s guidelines require a noil-racial policy of assign­
ments for newly-hired teachers and some steps with respect 
to transfers. You haven’t submitted anything like that, 
have you? A. We have submitted essentially to them on 
two occasions plans that were very similar to plans that

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



87a

have been approved in this area; and ours has not been 
approved. And we have not had, at any time, a written 
communication specifying wherein our plans that, we have

—19—
submitted have fallen short.

Q. Could you also get me the number of teachers who do 
not have one of these certificates and where they teach and 
what they teach? A. You’re talking about the A and B 
certificates?

Q. No, I mean teachers who are not certified, who do not 
have one of these A  or G or B certificates. A. Well, we 
don’t have teachers of that type. That’s what I was just 
saying.

Q. You don’t have any? A. That’s what I’ve just been 
saying; we don’t have any.

Mr. Nabrit: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, with respect to the Negro and white stu­
dents who applied for positions as practice teachers, can 
you enlighten me about that episode, what it was and—when 
was it first? A. I can’t specify the date; I would say this 
was recently, that is within the last year perhaps.

Q. All right. Now let’s take the Negro applicant first. 
Where was that person in school? A. The Negro appli­
cant was in school in North Carolina College.

Q. Did she have a recommendation from the school? A. 
She had an approval—let us say—from the school to the

— 20-

Principal of the high school, which was irregular. That 
was supposed to come from my office, me or Mr. Phillips,

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



88a

the Assistant Superintendent. The high school Principal 
referred it—•

Q. Pm confused. I was asking whether or not her own 
school that she attended, North Carolina College, recom­
mended her as a practice teacher. A. Recommended her 
to the high school Principal of Durham High School.

Q. I see. And you say that was irregular ? A. That was 
irregular.

Q. What was irregular about that? A. The regular ap­
proach was that this application be made to the Superin­
tendent or the Assistant Superintendent.

Q. Now when the people at North Carolina College rec­
ommend to Hillside, do they deal with the Hillside Princi­
pal? A. They deal with Hillside, but it’s my understand­
ing that Mr. Phillips is sitting in the same capacity that I 
served when the former Superintendent was here and I 
was in the position that he’s in now, and that was the posi­
tion that these were handled through the central office and 
there was then referrals made to these various schools. 
Now there’s some disagreement on that, I ’m aware, at 
North Carolina College. It was our impression that that 
was generally understood.

However, I think that that’s a minor aspect of it. I’m
—  21 -

not contending that seriously. It did arise at our office; it 
was discussed with the Board; and at that time the recom­
mendation was made that we had very definite commit­
ments made both to North Carolina College, to Duke Uni­
versity, and to the University of North Carolina, which have 
been in effect for a great many years regarding the place­
ment of teachers. And it was suggested that night that we 
saw no reason for expanding the number of student teach­
ers who were placed in any given school.

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



89a

Now there were very good reasons for that.
Q. I ’m sorry to interrupt yon—

Mr. Spears: Let him finish.

Q. Go ahead. A. There were some very good reasons 
for that. We had applications from Meredith College, from 
Shaw University, from the University of North Carolina 
at Greensboro, Guilford College, and others, to let new 
teachers come into Durham here and student teachers come 
into Durham and teach. But particularly at Durham High 
School we had had complaints from time to time about the 
number of Duke students and Carolina students who were 
permitted to do student teaching there.

And, through no one’s fault but through oversight 
largely, there had been instances when maybe a child would 
have as many as three student teachers at one time. And 
parents felt that that was not a satisfactory arrangement. 
And particularly at Durham. High, we did not want to in-

— 22—

increase the student teacher load in that school.
Q. Let me understand the function that a student teacher 

performs. Does she serve as a helper to the regular 
teacher? A. No, she does the teaching over a period of 
time.

Q. All right; I see. Do you have these student teachers 
at both the elementary and secondary levels? A. We have 
them at all levels.

Q, And what would be sort of a typical; does a student 
teacher teach, say, a period of a week or— A. It differs 
among the various institutions. It would usually run from 
six to nine weeks, I think.

Q. You mean from six to nine weeks that a student

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



90a

teaches the children? Is the student supervised by the regu­
lar classroom teacher during that period? A. That’s 
right. The student teacher does the teaching.

Q. And they’re both in the room? A. Not at all times. 
There again there are variations among the institutions. 
Some of them recommend this from time to time, that the 
regular teacher absent herself from the room just to see 
what happens.

Q. Yes. Now how many student teachers do you have, 
say, in this school system during the course of a year? A. 
Oh, that would be hard to estimate. Mr. Phillips, with some 
leeway on it, might want to make an estimate of that. There

—23—
would be perhaps, in Mr. Phillips estimation, from fifty to 
seventy-five. This is a very significant number.

Q. Now what about substitute teachers? How do sub­
stitute teachers, how are they assigned? Do you have a 
class of teachers who have a substitute certificate, for 
example? A. In many instances, these would be people 
who were former teachers and their families have grown 
up to the place that they’re either in school or off to 
college, and this particular person wants to come back 
and do some more teaching.

Q. Now the substitute teachers are called in on a day- 
to-day basis for illnesses and things like that? A. Yes, 
by the Principal.

Q. Now do they make their arrangements directly with 
the Principal? A. They make the arrangements.

Q. Although are they handled by the central office? 
A. They make the arrangements directly with the Prin­
cipal.

Q. Are they approved by the central office? A. The 
Principals are supplied a list of these teachers by the

Deposition- of Lew W. Hannen



91a

central office; and of course in some instances—in an 
epidemic, for example—you would need teachers over and 
beyond those that were available on any list that we fur­
nish; and the Principal has to do some ferreting out on 
his own to give the vacancies at a given time.

Q. The substitute teacher lists are also on a racially
—24—

segregated basis.’ A. They have been up to the present 
time. I

Q. There hasn’t been a change in that? A. Not up 
until the present time.

Q. Do youhave summer school? A. Summer school pro­
grams.

Q. Are the teachers segregated in the summer school 
programs? A. In some instances they were, and in other 
instances they were not.

Q. Did you have any Negro teachers teaching white 
children? A. We had one this summer.

Q. Was that a program, a regular program, of the School 
Board or wTas that a— Was this Head Start? A. Was 
this— This was Head Start program approved by the 
Board of Education after some pressure from Washington.

Q. But the desegregation was the result of some pres­
sure from the Office of Economic Opportunity? A. This 
was a decision made by the Board of Education after 
a request from the Office of Education that we integrate 
the teaching staff.

Q. Do you have summer school—have you had summer 
school in other years or is this the first year you have 
had it? A. You mean regular summer school?

Q. Yes. A. We’ve had regular summer school for a 
generation at least, and recently a program has been

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



92a

—25—
sponsored and paid for by a special foundation grant from 
Duke University.

Q. What foundation? A. This is an enrichment— It’s 
Ford Foundation. It’s been an enrichment-type program. 
And here again, this has been open to outstanding students. 
We have had all types of students in it. And the faculty 
here has been chosen not only from among local teachers 
but from outstanding teachers throughout. The regular 
summer school program has been in effect for at least 
a generation.

Q. Mr. Superintendent, the Board—or rather the Com­
mittee report mentions the fact that with free transfer 
programs we’ve had in effect, not all of the white pupils 
who have chosen to go to a school with a white teacher 
and— Is this part of your thinking on the subject? What 
do you think about that? And do you regard that as a 
reason for not desegregating teachers or a reason for go­
ing slow in it or what? A. I can’t follow you on account 
of this noise coming in here.

Q. I said the Committee’s report noted that under the 
free choice plan so far in Durham, none of the white pupils 
have chosen to attend Negro schools. Those who are as­
signed there asked to be transferred out and none of 
them has applied to Negro schools with Negro faculties. 
In your view, does this indicate that these parents don’t 
want to send their children to schools where there are

—2 6 -
Negro faculties? And if so, do you think that’s a reason 

| not to do it? A. I think very obviously this is the choice,. 
\ the parent has made. Whether this is either desirable 
1 or right, I, would not be in a position to say.

Q. But as it stands, where the parent has a choice of a 
Negro-faculty school or a white-faculty school, this is what

Deposition of Leiv W. Hannen



93a

it comes down to. A. What it comes down to is you give 
a freedom of choice to one person or a group of persons, 
it seems that you ought to give it to everybody.

Q. Well, I know that’s what’s being done. What I’m 
asking is, isn’t is so that the Negro child and the white 
child now have their choice between a white-faculty school 
and a Negro-faculty school ? A. Yes, shy with the one 
exception, at Hillside High School, of course, which we 
have now.

Q. Do you think the fact— Strike. Would you go over 
these five categories on the last page of the Committee 
report, the part that says desegregated “Supervisors, Prin­
cipals, and Teachers’ meetings?” Could you give me a 
statement what meetings have been desegregated and what 
meetings aren’t desegregated so we get an honest under­
standing of the picture? A. I think, as was pointed out 
by a previous witness, we have both white and Negro 
Supervisors on our central administrative staff here and

—27—
housed in this building. And meetings are integrated that 
these Supervisors have. All the Principals’ meetings have 
been desegregated for many years; Principals have been 
meeting as a unit. There was a general Teachers’ meet­
ing last spring that was for all of the teachers of the 
entire community held at the Shepard Junior High School. 
There was a general Teachers’ meeting at the Durham 
High School this fall for all the teachers of the com­
munity.

Q. Is that the first time in recent years that you had 
desegregated Teachers’ meetings? A. Yes, sir. Work­
shops have been desegregated, all sorts of workshops, 
for a number of years. Your in-service training pro-

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



94a

grams have been desegregated for several years. The 
grade level meetings likewise. And by “grade level” , we 
mean now all of your first-grade teachers get together, 
your second-grade teachers get together, and so on; your 
subject area meetings.

Q. And grade level meetings, the’ve been desegregated 
for a period of time? A. For a period of time. And 
the subject area meetings have been desegregated for a 
period of time. And the reason that other phrase is added 
there, “including all special subject meetings,” that means 
for example your Home Economics Teachers will all meet 
together, your Shop Teachers will all meet together. 
These 'would be special subject areas. And your super­
visory staff work is all integrated. I believe Mr. Phillips

—28—
for the last few years has held supervisory staff meetings 
regularly, about once a month, including all supervisors 
without regard to race.

Q. Now are there any meetings that are not desegregated 
among the teachers or principals? A. Not that are called 
or sponsored by the administrative staff. You’re aware, 
I ’m sure, that in this State you still have separate meet­
ings of your professional associations. You have the North 
Carolina Teachers Association-—

Q. Yes. What are the four associations mentioned in 
that report? Are some of them all-Negro organizations? 
You had four representatives from four different local 
assocations. A. Yes. You have a city-wide white pro­
fessional staff organization, which is an affiliate of the 
state organization.

Q. Which one is that? A. This would be the Durham 
City Education Association. Then you have a city-wide 
white group that is a component of—or a division of the

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



95a

State organization, a local division that is exclusively class­
room teachers. This would include—

Q. What is that called? A. This is the Durham City 
Classroom Teachers Association. Then you have the Dur­
ham Teachers Association, which is the Negro group 
comparable to the Durham City Education Association. 
You have your Durham Classroom Teachers Association, 
which is the comparable group to the Durham City Class­
room Teachers

* # # # #
—32—

#  #  #  #  *

Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Did you have any Negro supervisors working in the 
white schools that had responsibility for them? A. Not 
directly with the pupils. Of course, the Negro supervisor 
as well as the white supervisors are supposed to work 
with teachers and that would be the extent of their work 
wherever they are, with teachers; teachers rather than 
pupils.

Q. Well, my question was: Were any of the Negro super­
visors in— Do they deal with white schools or-— A. They 
would not supervise the work of the white teachers; the}r 
would observe. They would observe, I think, in some in­
stances, the work of the white teachers but would not 
directly supervise. That was the experience there.

Q. I take it we’re agreed that the policy has been, as 
discussed with some of the other witnesses, to look for the 
best person to fill the vacancy in terms of the best Negro 
to fill a Negro vacancy and the best white person to fill 
a white vacancy? And that’s been the policy? A. That

—33—
has actually been the way that it has turned out up to the 
present time.

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



96a

Q. This white student at Duke who wanted to teach at 
Hillside High, she was doing something unusual in seek­
ing to teach at a Negro school, right? A. That’s correct.

Q. And she spoke to you about this? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she spoke to members of the Board? A. Some 

members of the Board, at least.
Q. Did you ask her to speak to members of the Board? 

A. She asked if she might do that; and I told her that that 
was entirely up to her, whether she wanted to do it or not.

Q. Did she come to you first? A. I don’t know whether 
she came to me first or not. I don’t know what all people 
she approached.

Q. Was she qualified? A. I didn’t investigate it, be­
cause she was not qualified to the extent that we had had 
no communication from Duke University about the matter; 
to that extent, she was not qualified to begin with.

Q. Well, did you advise her of that? A. We told her__
as I recall, we told her that it would be necessary for her 
to get the endorsement of the University in every instance 
before we place a teacher in a teaching situation—or 
Carolina or North Carolina College, as the case may be.

Q. And the Negro teacher who applied to the white 
school had the endorsement of her Dean, but you objected 
to the Dean dealing directly with the Principal, is that true ? 
A. This was a minor thing; we thought that he should do 
this the way that we understood it was being done, should 
be done. Then, of course, this girl was rejected on the basis 
that we did not wish to expand teacher training program 
at Durham High School, which already was at least as 
large as it should be, and perhaps larger in some instances. 
This would simply make access to Durham High School 
by another teacher-training institution when we’d already

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen



97a

Deposition of Lew W. Hannen

turned them down from all around in this section of the 
State.

Q. Oh, I see. You mean all of your teacher-training insti­
tutions have arrangements with a particular school within 
this system? A. This has been the custom in the past, 
for them to deal with certain schools. Universally this has 
been true and it has been limited to Duke and Carolina 
and North Carolina College. We feel that if we take these 
teachers from these three institutions in Durham that that’s 
just about all Durham ought to be asked to do when you’ve 
got other cities. We’ve got 169 school units in this State 
now. We think that when we take them from the two 
largest in the State and also North Carolina College, a 
third teacher-training institution, that that’s about all we

- 3 5 -
can do. So we are not set to expand our program.

Q. I understand. My point was, they deal with the tra­
ditional schools that their teachers have served? A. En­
tirely ; entirely.

*  *  *  *  *



9 8 a

Excerpts From Transcript of Hearing, 
September 23-24, 1965

*  •  *  #  *

Mybl G-. Herman was called as a witness on behalf of the 
Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was examined and 
testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Herman, state your address, please. A. 46 Cliff- 
side Drive, Cranston, Ehode Island.

The Court: I beg your pardon. Tell me the wit­
ness’s name.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. State your name. A. Myrl G. Herman.
Q. And what is your profession, Mr. Herman? A. At 

the present time I am Professor of Education and Director 
of Laboratory Experiences at Ehode Island College.

Q. Would you give the Court a brief resume of your 
educational background and your employment background 
in the field of education? A. I have a Bachelor’s Degree in 
Economics and History from McKendree College—

—43—
*  #  #  *  #

A. I have a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Economics and 
History from McKendree College in Lebanon, Illinois. I 
have a Master of Arts Degree in Education from Washing­
ton University in Saint Louis, approximately 60 hours be­
yond the Masters Degree in curriculum and instruction at 
Washington University in Saint Louis. I have been an 
elementary teacher for three years, a principal of an ele­
mentary school for two years, superintendent of schools

— 4 2 —



99a

for two years; Assistant Professor of Education, Univer­
sity of Oklahoma, for five years; Assistant Professor of 
Education at Ball State Teachers College, Muncie, Indiana, 
for two years; Associate Professor of Education and head 
of Elementary Education Department in the Graduate 
School of Education at Yeshiva University. There I was 
Associate Director of the Teachers Fellowship Program 
which was an internship program for teachers, supported 
by the Ford Foundation. I was visiting Lecturer of Edu­
cation at the University of Illinois for two years, Assistant 
Superintendent for Curriculum and Instruction in the Villa 
Park, Illinois schools, a suburb of Chicago, from which posi-

—44—
tion I came to my present position.

I have been in my present position about 25 days.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What are your duties in your present job! A. My 
main duties are the supervision and direction of the 
student-teaching program; that’s a teachers preparation 
program in the schools. I do not have direct responsibility 
for that but I am generally responsible for it, I am also 
responsible, generally responsible for the operation of the 
campus laboratory school.

Mr. Jarvis: May I inquire what is his present 
position!

Mr. Nabrit: I ’m sorry.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Would you repeat that? A. I am Professor of Edu­
cation and Director of Laboratory Experiences at Rhode 
Island College.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



100a

The Court: What are laboratory experiences? 
Maybe somebody will bring that out but I ’m not sure 
what you’re speaking of.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What is the laboratory school? A. This has to do 
with all the experiences in the preparation of teachers 
where a teacher is involved in learning how to teach within 
a classroom setting as separated from classroom work.

—45—
The Court: I see. All right, go ahead.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. I think that you might clarify that, if you’re talking 
about a laboratory school, what it is. A. Well, the labora­
tory school is a school which is used for the preparation of 
teachers in the early stages of their training—that is, the 
freshman, sophomore, and junior years—where the pro­
spective teachers spend time in the schools under the direc­
tion of teachers, getting preliminary experience before en­
tering into student teaching in the public schools.

Q. In the public schools, but the laboratory school is an 
elementary school? A. Yes. It has children in it, children 
four years of age through the ninth grade.

Q. And do you have a particular area of specialization 
in the field of education? A. My area of specialization is 
dealing primarily with instruction. I have, of course, train­
ing in the area of curriculum but for approximately 15, 16 
years I have spent a great deal of my time in classrooms 
analyzing the teaching of teachers and the teaching of stu­
dent teachers.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiff s—Direct



101a

Q. Would you give the Court your view with respect to 
the effect of the tendency of the policy of segregating 
faculties by race—

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs-—Direct

Q. -—in the context of a school policy based on a system
— 4 6—

of freedom of choice!

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Now are you talking—I ’m not sure I 

understand the question. Before I rule on the ob­
jection, does your question relate to the pupil or the 
teacher or both? I didn’t understand that in your 
question, just what you were driving at. Would you 
ask your question one more time ?

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. The question was: What are your views or what is 
your view as an educator of the consequences of faculty 
segregation by race and how that relates to a system of free 
choice for desegregating schools wherein the children or 
parents choose their schools?

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
The Court: Well, I ’ll overrule the objection and 

let him answer. He didn’t ask it any differently but 
I ’ll let him answer it.

Mr. Spears: Your Honor, he said what was his 
view. He didn’t say if he had an opinion or not; it’s 
his view.



102a

The Court: Well, that’s what I had reference to, 
but I think we’d end up at the same place.

I suppose, Professor, you have an opinion in that 
area, do you?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
—47—

Mr. Jarvis: Your Honor, might I just elaborate 
on the objection a little bit? I don’t know whether 
he has been ottered as an expert in the freedom-of- 
choice systems; I don’t know if he has ever had any 
experience in the system.

The Court: Well, I ’ll let you examine him on that 
score. Objection overruled. Go ahead.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Go ahead. A. The question is a little bit compli­
cated; let me break it down. I have to pre-empt what I 
have to say with the fact that of all the factors that are 
involved in the education of children, the teacher is the 
most crucial element. That is, the choice of the teacher who 
teaches is extremely important, not only because this per­
son directs the activity of the children, but also because as 
a person he represents the culture to the child.

Now I personally feel that if you are assigning teachers 
strictly on the basis of race as a prior question in the terms 
of employment, you are actually violating the child’s right 
to equal opportunity in terms of his education. I base this 
on the idea—

The Court: Well, I ’ll strike that. You didn’t bring 
him here to advise the Court on the question of law. 
He said you are violating his rights; I guess he’s

Myrl G. Herman— for Plaintiffs—Direct



103a

talking about he feels it’s a violation of his constitu-
—48—

tional rights, and I ’m sure you didn’t intend to ask 
such a question. That’s voluntary, but I don’t think 
that’s competent.

The Witness: I ’m referring to his educational 
right. I ’m not interpreting the Constitution as such. 
I ’m saying that if you use race as a basis for employ­
ing teachers and assigning teachers, you are not 
actually attempting to get the very best of teachers, 
the very best of teachers.

Every school system should be trying to employ 
the best teachers that it can employ and assign them 
to the teaching position. But if you have as a basic 
element the requirement of a particular race, you 
start to eliminate some of the best, the choices of the 
best teachers that are available.

If you have a school that is, say, a colored school, 
you have four vacancies in that building and you 
are going to fill them with Negro teachers, you al­
ready have discounted the fact that there are excel­
lent teachers available who are white for that school 
and you are not necessarily choosing the best 
teachers.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Do you have an opinion on the effect of faculty segre­
gation on the student’s knowledge-learning process, looking 
at it in the context of a situation where you have all Negro 
pupils and all Negro faculty, where you have all white

—4 9 -
pupils and a white faculty, where you have all white faculty 
and a predominantly white but mixed student body, those 
various contexts; would you talk about them?

Myrl G. Herman-—for Plaintiffs—-Direct



104a

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Overruled. Gro ahead.

A. Well, in such cases you are actually depriving a child 
of contact with the culture; the whole basic idea of educa­
tion is that the child will be introduced to the culture and 
all that is present within it. If he does not have contact 
with teachers of various races or from various elements 
of the population who make up a substantial proportion of 
the population, you are actually depriving the child of that 
kind of cultural contact.

I think that our children are becoming more and more in­
volved in a changing kind of world. The moment that a boy 
is finished with high school, he is subject to the draft, go­
ing into the Army. Here he will start to come into contact 
with people who are his superiors who may be from another 
race. If he goes out to look for a job, he goes to be inter­
viewed by personnel managers who may be of another race. 
In all of his activities, he is very likely to be exposed to 
people who may be superior to him or making decisions 
about him and who may be of another race. The schools 
will enable him to predispose himself to whatever it is that 
he will meet in life.

—50—
I feel that a school which is made up of teachers pri­

marily of one race then prevents this child from having a 
good life experience which he deserves and should have.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. When you talk about cultural experience, in what 
sense do you use the word “ culture” ? Would you explain 
it? A. In the sense that “ culture” represents what society 
does, thinks, feels, and so on, not from the use of the term

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



105a

that you put in quotation marks where somebody is talking 
about it in terms of actually making fun of cultured per­
sons, so to speak. I am using an entirely different sense, 
in the sense that it’s representative of what society does, 
thinks, feels, and so on.

Q. Now could you relate your view to an actual program 
in school such as reading textbooks? Does this relate to 
the actual learning process? A. Well, one of the general 
movements in this direction in order to provide the child 
with this kind of contact, even if he happens to be in a 
segregated school or what we would call a nonsegregated 
school where there is no possibility for the child to have 
contact with pupils of another race or teachers of another 
race, there has been definite trends towards the organiza­
tion of materials which will do this for the child. Many 
reading programs are being instituted over the country, 
for example, which contain multi-ethnic material where

—51—
children are reading about children of another race. They 
are seeing pictures of teachers teaching children of another 
race, teachers of another race teaching someone of their 
own race, and so on. There is a general movement in this 
direction in order to acquaint children through the means 
of the curriculum with other elements of the culture that 
happen to have another environment. In some of the sub­
urbs around a large city there is a highly limited environ­
ment where children have absolutely no contact at all with 
members of the Negro population or with Chinese popula­
tion or with Mexican population or what have you; and 
there is a definite attempt to at least do this at another 
level if it can’t be done in actuality.

Q. What is the relationship—would you make a com-

Myrl G, Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



106a

parison between learning by study of books and learning 
by other means?

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.

A. Well, again the trend in education over the past fifty 
years has been somewhat away from words and towards 
more contact with actuality as a basis for words. In other 
words, we have tried to give children some kind of a per­
ception through experience before he uses the words for 
that experience.

So I would say that this is in general what we are trying 
to do in relation to training the child, social training of 
the child, as well as to other elements.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What about the effect of a policy of faculty segrega-
—52—

tion on a Negro child in a school with all Negro children 
and all Negro teachers; do you have any opinion with re­
spect to the educational impact of that? A. Well, again, 
here a child is within a limited environment not having a 
true representation of the culture before him or not having 
experience with the true culture. In a case like this, too, 
there is the matter of the self-concept which a child de­
velops.

I think that the investigations in the development of 
children tend to show that the only way a child can develop 
self-concept and relate to the world is through the experi­
ence which he has. If his experience is limited, his self- 
concept is limited by that experience. He does not really 
get a true picture of the world.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



107a

I think that a Negro child in a highly-limited environ­
ment which is primarily Negro oriented tends to develop 
very great prejudices which need to be offset by a con­
tact with, say, good models of the white population or of 
Latin population, Mexican population, or any other type 
of representative element of the culture.

Q. What about the white child in the all-white—the white 
child in a school that might have some Negro students but 
no Negro teachers or an all-white faculty, or in an all- 
white school? A. Well, he has somewhat the same prob­
lem. I think if you look at such things as mobility of the

—5 3 -
population in this country, we can see what his problem 
might be outside of just this one limited experience. About 
a fifth of the population of this country moves every year. 
This has been going on for quite some time. The possi­
bility of a child moving is very great. If he has had such 
a limited kind of education prior and he goes into a new 
area where there, say, is a mixed population with which 
he has to contend, he operates at some disadvantage with­
out prior experience and prior knowledge that he needs.

Again I must relate this to life experience and to the 
whole future of his life. He is going to live in a very mobile 
society even if he never leaves the school system. He has 
even a more limited kind of education if he doesn’t leave 
it until he is an adult. Then when he is an adult, he gets 
himself into situations. He is going to be very mobile. 
There is great possibility of his moving. He will come into 
contact with a wider culture and will not be prepared to 
contend with it.

Q. Now how does the race of the teachers, where the race 
of the teachers is restricted—does that have a bearing on 
parents’ attitude about the school and the choice of the

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



108a

school for their child? A. Well, in most of the communi­
ties where there have been plans for transferring children, 
so forth, there has been a reluctance of parents to put

—54—
their children in schools which were predominantly of an­
other race. This is particularly true, I think, of the Negro 
population. The studies would indicate that the Negro is 
very insecure in a totally-white environment and this would 
be true of Negro children who would be put in totally-white 
schools. Therefore, parents would tend to hold their chib' 
dren out of totally-white schools as, of course, white par-1 

I ents would tend to keep their children out of total-Negrcf 
schools.

The tragedy of this is when transfer does occur, it’s 
usually the wrong people. They are the kind of people 
who need this kind of training least.

If you will look at— I don’t know if this is true in .Dur­
ham or not; I have not had an opportunity to look at this 
phase. But the experience of other school systems is that 
the people who tend to transfer their children—let’s take 
the Negro population—the Negro parents who tend to put 
their children in the white schools on an open-transfer 
basis or any other plan tend to be the people who already 
have had a great deal of contact with white people. Their 
children tend to have had a great deal of contact with 
white children. These are children who are generally 
middle-class or of the higher middle-class who have had 
all of the things that are needed in reference to already 
understanding relationships with another type of person 
in the population. The rest who do not transfer are prob-

—55—
ably the children who need this kind of contact most.

Myrl G. Herman-—for Plaintiffs—Direct



109a

Q. Now this whole business of cultural contact is I think 
outside of what the average person thinks about education, 
what public schooling is like. It’s not a math; it’s not 
ABC’s. Is there a legitimate relationship between all of 
this and public education as it is conceived in this country?

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.

A. You have the same thing here that is true of what I 
spoke about a while ago. When we are teaching children 
to read and we are teaching children mathematics and we 
are teaching children social studies, geography, history, 
and so forth, you are preparing the child for the culture; 
you are preparing him to participate in the culture. You 
have exactly the same kind of goal as you do in terms of 
dealing with personalities in the culture, the very same 
kind of people.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Now, Mr. Herman, have you thought about possible 
methods of changing a school system from a segregated 
faculty to a desegregated faculty, various plans for doing 
it, the alternatives and possible ways of doing it? Would 
you indicate those and what your view is to better ways 
of doing it?

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Well, I don’t know how that has any

—5 6 -
bearing on the decision. It may go to the remedy if 
you reach that certain point. Let the Professor say 
what he thinks in that area.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



110a

A. Various systems have been tried for carrying out such 
a program. If you think this through or you look at the 
literature on the subject, you come to some various alterna­
tives which are available to you. You can use some type 
of random assignment and redistribute all the teachers in 
the school system, or you can use some kind of gradual 
plan such as was used in Miami and Dade County with 
their junior colleges. That is, they had a gradual system 
where Negro teachers worked with white teachers for a 
semester before being put into classrooms on their own; 
or you have the alternative of some kind of a planned, 
controlled procedure over a number of years where de­
segregation of faculty occurs immediately to some extent. 
Then you have a plan whereby this would be increased.

If you look at the three plans or the three bases, I don’t 
think that you could come to any other conclusion other 
than to use the latter plan. I think the plan such as was 
instituted in Oklahoma City as a result of the Court’s 
order there is quite a desirable one. It probably would be 
effective in virtually any community if such a thing were 
to be carried out.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Would you describe more fully what you think would 
be a desirable plan?

—57—
Mr. Spears: Object.
The Court: Overruled.

A. Well, first of all I think there would have to be some 
desegregation of the faculty which is presently operating- 
in the schools. In virtually any community if you survey 
the teachers you will find that there is a substantial body

Myrl G. Herman—•for Plaintiffs—-Direct



111a

of teachers who are qualified and are willing to work in 
desegregated classes or in classes composed mainly of 
children, say, of another race. There is almost always some 
body of teachers who are willing to do this, and I think you 
begin with these people who have expressed this qualifica­
tion and willingness to work in that type of school and 
under those conditions.

I don’t know how this would be governed. I think that 
perhaps Courts in general would have to set some kind of 
percentage base, not necessarily just to get an arbitrary 
figure because it would be plucked out of the air to some 
extent, but in order that duress or coercion could not make 
some difference to the people who had this willingness.

The Court: What was that last statement?
The Witness: I don’t say that this exists any­

where actually. I’m just saying for the purpose—
The Court: You said perhaps “duress or coer­

cion.” I didn’t get that statement you made.
The Witness: Well, a percentage figure estab-

—58—
lishecl by the Court prevents duress and coercion 
of the people who have expressed a willingness to 
teach in such schools.

The Court: I understand that. I couldn’t hear you 
before.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Go ahead. A. Following that, I think you must base 
your desegregation plans on conducting your survey from 
year to year of those people who are willing and who would 
accept such an assignment. I think this would be a basis

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



112a

for transferring teachers. In other words, in the beginning 
you do this and you do this every year following.

Then in your employment practices each year as you 
employ a new staff, you would employ a new staff primarily 
on the basis of qualification, ability to teach, and so forth, 
without regard to race; and these people would then be 
assigned without regard to race in the schools. Over a 
period of years— Of course, there is no great desegrega­
tion that occurs immediately because of this, but over a 
period of years you would have a substantial desegrega­
tion of the teachers in the school system.

I think that some necessary prerequisites also are that 
when this is first begun that the superintendent of schools 
needs to be given a great deal of opportunity for judgment 
here. I think that he should prepare a plan which is sub­
mitted to the board, perhaps reviewed by the Court, a plan 
which would cover, say, a number of years, say exactly

—59—
what the procedures will be and what will actually occur 
during that period of time.

I think also within the reports or within the actions of 
the school system there must be some consideration in 
service education of teachers who would be working with 
classes of another race or desegregated classes, integrated 
classes, or however you want to classify them. In other 
words, this is an essential factor which would have to be 
organized and carried out over a period of time. White 
teachers in a totally-segregated school system which has 
been operated—white teachers would not really have the 
competencies, all the competencies, that would be necessary 
in working with Negroes. This would be a new experience 
for them, and the same would be true on the other side of 
the fence.

Mijrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct



113a

The Court: Let’s take a five-minute recess.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)

The Court: All right, you may proceed, Mr.
Nabrit.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q, Mr. Herman, would you have an opinion with respect 
to faculty desegregation on the achievement of pupils; and 
if you do, would you express it? A. The overall infor­
mation on this topic actually intimates that with desegre­
gation of faculty, children tend—both Negro and white 
children tend to achieve somewhat higher. There are some 
initial effects that have been noted by school systems and

—60—
that is immediately upon desegregation of faculties, you 
seem to have a slight decline; but after a period of time 
the achievement level tends to be higher than it had been 
previously. A study which was done by the Baltimore 
schools shows this effect, and a number of other schools 
that I can’t cite right at the moment.

Q. Mr. Herman, have you made any survey of the Dur­
ham schools or any effort to become familiar with the 
Durham schools? A. I have made no study of the Dur­
ham schools, nothing other than what I would class as 
superficial information, which is a few facts about the 
school system which are of very recent origin.

But I don’t come here to tell people how to run their 
schools or tell the Court to tell the schools how they should 
be run. I come merely on the basis of my knowledge about 
children and the teachers’ relationship to the children and 
the effect of teachers on the children.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Mr. Nabrit: Your witness.



114a

Cross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. Mr. Herman, you just said you have no knowledge 
and made no study of the total school system here in the 
City of Durham? A. That’s correct.

—61—
Q. Now you know that we have here in the City of 

Durham freedom of choice for pupils? A. That’s what I 
understand.

Q. Now then where a child—his parents have a freedom 
of choice, then they exercise that choice as to the school 
they go to? A. I understand that’s true.

Q. And any child who desires to go to a white school or 
a school that is predominantly white, then he has that 
choice; then he has a teacher in that school, doesn’t he? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. Now if he does not exercise that choice, do you feel 
then that he should be compelled to exercise that choice? 
A. I feel that for the child’s own good that perhaps this 
might need to be done. There are forces that are operating 
to determine what the choice will be that perhaps should be 
overcome. In schools—in virtually every situation where 
desegregation of both faculty and children has occurred, 
there has been resistance on the part of parents initially, 
but later this tends not to be the case and parents tend 
then after a period of two, three, four years in some cases 
to think more of the welfare of their child in terms of the 
education he will receive, rather than where he is getting 
it and who he is getting it from.

Q. Well now, what effect would it have on a child if he
—62—

is forced to go to a school that his parents don’t want him 
to go to? A. That depends on what the parents do to

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



115a

the child. The child’s experience when he gets there is the 
important factor.

Q. Well, I asked you if they force him to go to a school 
that the parents don’t want him to go to, would that have 
a detrimental effect on the child, whether he be white or 
Negro? A. It might and it might not. There have been 
studies of the adjustment of children under such cases 
and these studies indicate that children normally adjust to 
such conditions fairly readily, particularly within a period 
of a few months rather than the first day or two days or 
three days.

Q. Well, what about the choice of the teacher when he 
elects to go to a particular school, then isn’t he in effect 
selecting that school and selecting that teacher that’s 
there at the school? A. I don’t know how to—what frame 
of reference to put your question in. Would you ask it 
again and let me think it through?

Mr. Spears: Would you read the question?

(Thereupon, the Reporter read the pending ques­
tion as above recorded.)

A. Yes, he is.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, Your Honor, I don’t under­
stand the question, whether it means the parent is

—63—
selecting the teacher or the teacher’s preference for 
the school.

The Court: Well, I understood that whoever
made the choice, the choice is not only the school but 
the composition of the student body and the faculty,

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



116a

that he chose it all, as I understood what the ques­
tion was.

The Witness: I understood the question to he: 
Is the choice not a choice? And the choice is a choice.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. He makes that choice? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in a democracy he is entitled to make that choice, 

isn’t he? A. He may or may not be. We don’t let people 
make their choices about everything that they do.

Q. Well now, speaking about the children, you are not 
familiar with the Durham system? A. No.

Q. Then if a teacher is assigned to a school that the 
teacher does not want to teach in, what effect would that 
have on the teacher and on the pupils? A. If a teacher 
is assigned to teach in a school where she or he does not 
wish to teach, the result would be a deterioration of the 
morale of that particular teacher and perhaps other 
teachers as well.

Q. And pupils also? A. This should actually have no 
effect on pupils simply because assignments are usually

—64—
made before school starts. This type of thing, if this 
teacher were compelled to teach in a situation in which 
he did not wish to teach, his relationship to the children 
whom he is teaching would be a result of the morale 
situation; in that sense, you are correct.

Q. But there is no legal way, is there, to force a teacher 
to teach in a school that he doesn’t want to teach in? Is 
there?

Mr. Pearson: Your Honor, I think I—
The Court: Objection sustained.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



117a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross 

By Mr. Spears:

Q. In other words, the teacher has a choice also, doesn’t 
he! A, Not actually, no. In actuality, school systems 
operate under the direction of the Board of Education and 
the superintendent of schools, and the teachers are assigned 
to teach where they are needed. Let me give you an illus­
tration of this. Almost all school systems at some time or 
another are forced to employ teachers whom they cannot 
give an assignment as they do not know where that teacher 
is going to teach. In other words, that teacher is going to 
be assigned without choice.

Q. Well, does a teacher have any right in the matter 
himself or herself? A. Legally—I don’t know the statutes 
in this state but I assume they are much like elsewhere. 
Legally, no; but ethically, yes.

—65—
Q. Yes. That is, he should have some right; a teacher 

should have some right? A. I would support that idea, 
yes.

Q. You will? A. Yes.
Q. Now in a system like we have in Durham where there 

is freedom of choice and the Negro child’s parents request 
that he be assigned to a predominantly-white school and 
that child participates in all of the activities of that school 
—that is, in curriculum, the classroom, on the playground, 
the literary societies, and others—then that child is given 
what you say, the opportunity for culture, a broad culture; 
isn’t he? A. Yes.

Q. And you have no objection to that, do you? A. No, 
I clo not have any objection to it.

Q. And if the Durham schools are doing that, then the 
child who elects to go is receiving that culture ? A. That’s 
correct.



118a

Q. And the child who does not elect to go, he is receiving 
what he elects that he desires to have, isn’t he! A. I don’t 
know.

Q. Now do yon know anything about—Well, do you know 
that in the State of North Carolina that the salaries of 
Negro teachers and white teachers are based entirely on

— 66—

their certificate? A. Yes.
Q. And the salary is the same across the board— A. 

Yes.
Q. —without regard to race! A. Yes.
Q. And that in selecting the teachers by the Superinten­

dent or the Board, they endeavor to get the best-qualified 
teacher they can get for that system; is there anything 
wrong with that? A. I understand that this is done with 
the one restriction, that is in relation to race.

Q. To get the best-qualified teacher regardless—• A. 
Except that the person must be qualified by race for a 
particular school assignment.

Q. Well, if in selecting and assigning teachers, if the 
best-qualified teachers are assigned to teach in the schools, 
doesn t that take care of the situation? A. Assignment 
implies employment; there is no way that you cannot-—fail 
to relate the two.

Q. You have to employ them before you assign them, 
don’t you? A. But you employ them by the number of 
positions which are available and to which the teacher is 
going to be assigned.

Q. Well then, if you select the best-qualified teacher
—67—

whei e jou have a vacancy, then has the Board endeavored 
to furnish the students the best training they can get?

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



119a

A. If a vacancy exists and the Superintendent chooses 
and the Board then employs the best teacher for that posi­
tion, yes.

Q. Yes, whether he be white or Negro. A. That’s right.

The Court: While they are conferring, Professor, 
are you familiar with the National Teacher Examina­
tion?

The Witness: Yes, the National Teachers Ex­
amination.

The Court: What do you think of that as a means 
of testing teachers?

The Witness: It’s a reasonable instrument to use. 
It is used widely across the country and is a reason­
able instrument to employ for this measure for the 
purposes for which it is being used here.

The Court: It is ?
The Witness: I would not object to it at all.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. Well, where the Board or Superintendent employs 
the best-qualified teacher to fill that vacancy and if the 
best-qualified teacher happens to be a Negro teacher or 
a white teacher, then isn’t the Board performing its proper 
function in the educational process? A. As long as the 
race element is irrelevant.

— 68—

Q. I asked you the “best-qualified teacher.” I didn’t say 
anything about race, isn’t that right? A. Well, you didn’t 
mention race; that’s why I added that in.

Q. Well, I mean in that question, I said the best-qualified 
teacher— A. Fine, yes.

Myrl G. Herman-—for Plaintiffs—Cross



120a

Q- —to fill that vacancy, whether it be Negro or white. 
A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with the qualifications, the respec­
tive qualifications of the Negro teachers and white teachers 
in this immediate area? A. Yes.

Q. You say that they are equally qualified! A. In terms 
of paper qualifications, yes. As to the other qualifications, 
again I don’t know because I have not had the direct ex­
perience with the system or with the pnpils in the State.

Q. Now in employing a teacher you look at the rating 
of the teacher, his certificate or his standing in his college; 
there are other factors involved as well as proficiency in 
the standing, whether he graduated near the top or near 
the bottom; and in employing teachers these other intan­
gibles such as personality, ability to express yourself and 
to mix, shouldn’t that also be taken into consideration? A.

—6 9 -
Yes. Let me say that I have looked at the hiring policies 
of the school system and there is not inherently anything 
which is wrong with them. They think that the Superin­
tendent and his staff should be given every opportunity 
to look at intangible factors as you classify them in terms 
of personality, language, and so on. This kind of choice 
should rest in the Superintendent’s hands.

Q. If that is being done, then the Board and the Super­
intendent are doing their work, as you say, in a proper 
way; wouldn’t you say? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And experience also enters into employment, doesn’t 
it? A. Yes.

Q. Will you elaborate on your statement that white 
teachers and Negro teachers do not have all the competency 
to teach children of the other race? A. This has to do 
with the cultural background of the teacher himself. A

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



121a

child, as I said before, needs a wide cultural contact. The 
cultural contact can only come from people who come from 
diverse backgrounds. A white teacher has grown up in a 
different kind of cultural setting and transfers certain ideas 
and structures to a child; so does a Negro teacher who 
has the same kind of background, which is uniquely his 
own because of the culture in which he is reared. A child 
should have a chance to contact good models who repre-

—70—
sent a race other than his own.

Q. Well, should a pupil be given an opportunity to come 
in contact with a person of his own background? A. Yes.

Q. Isn’t that more important or of equal importance to 
coming in contact with a person of a different background? 
A. No, I don’t think so. You look at the priorities here. 
The priority would be for him to have contact with a per­
son from a different background, in fact, from several 
different backgrounds if possible.

Q. Well, even though that person might not be able to 
communicate with the pupil equally or as well as a person 
with the same background? A. Would you rephrase your 
question ?

Q. I say, even though that person might not be able to 
communicate with the pupil as well or equal to a person, 
a teacher, of a similar background? A. I answer the ques­
tion “yes,” if it’s a continuation of the previous question.

Q. Now I believe you stated on direct examination that 
it wasn’t a question of percentage, that is, if you had a 
hundred teachers you would have to have 50 Negro teachers 
and 50 white teachers; you don’t mean that? A. With per­
centages you are getting an arbitrary definition of who’s 
competent, if you know what I mean. In other words, you

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



122a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—71—
are saying that so many people are competent. I men­
tioned a percentage several different times and I would 
like to know which time you are referring to.

Q. Well, I refer to whether in a school that had 50 teach­
ers in one school and they were all Negro teachers, then 
would you say that they should have 25 white teachers or 
five white teachers or ten white teachers! A. I wouldn’t 
commit myself to a percentage of that group at all.

Q. In other words, you wouldn’t say whether there should 
be one or 25 or 30! A. No. They should have a hundred 
percent of the most competent teachers that they can get 
in their classrooms, regardless of their background.

Q. In other words, get the best-qualified teachers! A. 
True.

Q. Whether they be white or Negro! A. Yes, or any 
other race.

Q. Or any other race, Indian, Chinese, and so forth.
Did I understand you to say that in your opinion the 

Court should designate a certain percentage! A. Yes, and 
let me explain that. I thought you might be referring to 

i this. I think the percentage should be small enough that 
it is absolutely reasonable to expect that this can be done. 
The reason the percentage figure would be used in this

—7 2 -
case would be to prevent the school system or any people 
in it—and I ’m not saying that you would do this at all; 
I met Mr. Hannen and he’s a very fine person—but the 
intent of the Court or anyone else in issuing such an 
order would be to prevent coercion or duress of teachers 
who were willing to teach. Let’s say a teacher was willing 
to teach but then through some subtle means you told her, 
“You are not supposed to say you are willing to teach in



123a

a white school or Negro school,” you have to do something 
which would prevent this from happening and I think yon 
have to set some kind of a minimum percentage which 
would tend to prevent this.

Q. Then if the Court should set a percentage, isn’t the 
Court in effect coercing the teacher and the system to meet 
that percentage ? A. It would if it were a percentage which 
were extreme; but if it were perfectly reasonable, there 
would be nothing wrong with this. In other words, it’s 
setting some kind of a basic minimum. I don’t think the 
logic here breaks down.

Q. Well then, in your opinion the assignment should be 
only to those teachers who are willing to teach in that 
respective school? A. That’s true, yes. As I said before, 
this is related to the morale problem; I ’ve already testified 
to this.

Q. Now the systems that you speak about you are famil­
iar with, it’s merely that there are 50 vacancies and they

—7 3 -
employ 50 teachers, and I assume the best qualified? A. 
They will employ the 50 best teachers that they can get 
and assign them to the vacancies that exist.

Q. Well now, in employing a teacher, if you have a va­
cancy in English in the seventh grade, that’s the teacher 
you try to get, a teacher who can teach seventh-grade Eng­
lish; isn’t that right? A. Sure.

Q. You don’t simply employ 50 teachers that might be 
math, history, and not English; you would want to find 
out, if you have a vacancy in math or English, then that’s 
the teacher that you feel, that the Board feels, and the 
Superintendent, that is qualified to teach that subject; isn’t 
that right! A. Wherever you can specifically do it, you 
employ the best person for the position.

Myrl G. Herman*—for Plaintiffs—Cross



124a

Q. That position? A. I’m talking about a single posi­
tion. You’re looking for a single person to fill that single 
position.

Q. And not simply employ 50 teachers and assign them 
across the board regardless of their capacity or ability to 
teach that certain subject? A. Correct.

Q. Because teachers, in your experience, certain teachers 
do specialize in certain subjects, don’t they? A. Abso­
lutely.

—74—
Q- Hstory, English, geography, math, physics, and so 

forth.
So then you wouldn’t say that you would take a science 

teacher who specialized in physics in college—that was their 
major—and ask them to teach geography, would you? A. 
You’re not permitted to do that ordinarily because of 
certification laws, anyway, so that doesn’t have much mean­
ing.

Q. But I mean you would not— A. I would not do that, 
either.

Q. What? A. I would not do it, if that’s the question.
Q. Well, then I’ll ask you if employment and assignment 

are synonymous? A. No, they are not.
Q. Well, if you employ an English teacher to teach the 

seventh grade and then you assign them to teach the 
seventh grade, isn’t that synonymous, to teach English in 
the seventh grade? A. If he happens to be— If the va­
cancy happens to be in a Negro school and you specifically 
employ a Negro for that position.

Q. But if you employed the best-qualified teacher for that 
position— A. That’s different.

Q. —there’s nothing wrong with that, is there? A. No.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—•Cross



125a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—75—
Q. Well, about the seventh-grade English teacher, if yon 

employ a teacher to teach English in the seventh grade, 
you have a vacancy when you employ him, isn’t that an 
assignment at the same time? A. That is, yes.

Q. You employ him at that particular position? A. Yes.
Q. And when you employ him, he is employed for that 

position-— A. Yes.
Q. —and it is an assignment? A. Yes.

The Court: Do you have many more questions to 
ask?

Mr. Spears: Just one more.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. If the Durham School Board does that, employ a 
teacher for a particular place, a particular vacancy, a par­
ticular subject, do you have any quarrel with that? A. If 
that’s what they do, I have absolutely no quarrel with it.

Mr. Spears: All right, come down.
The Court: Mr. Herman, let me ask you a ques­

tion or two, please, to see if I understand. You say 
you feel that it is desirable for children in schools 
to have contacts with all other races that live in their

—7 6 -
community, whether they are Negroes, white, Chi­
nese, Indians, whatever it might be, because in later 
life they are going to be in contact with the citizens 
of the community and that if they learn to live with 
them and to understand during school, then they 
will be better able in later life to understand this 
problem.



126a

Well, see if I do understand that. What you really 
advocate is, while there has apparently been some 
controversy in the North about bussing children 
across town to schools to gain a balance in all 
schools, is that what you’re speaking of, that that’s 
a desirable thing to do?

The Witness: I ’m not referring to that. I ’m re­
ferring primarily to teachers. It seems the children, 
in their contacts in life and through their home and 
elsewhere, gain all kinds of prejudices and get many 
of the wrong contacts. They should see during their 
lifetime and all their growing-up as early as possible 
a good representative as well from those same 
groups.

The Court: Well, I understand that that is ap­
pealing; I follow you on that perfectly well. But 
now to achieve that, do I understand that you feel 
that the School Board then, since it is a desirable 
objective, then has a positive duty to see that that 
is accomplished?

The Witness: I think they should assign teachers
—77—

rather than move the children, you know, by bus, 
say, from one community to another; it can be ac­
complished much more readily with the teachers. 
The assignment of a white teacher in an all-colored 
school is an easier way to get that kind of contact.

The Court: Do you mean you think you get the 
same thing if a school is an all-Negro school and a 
white teacher is assigned to that school, that the 
Negro child will achieve the same culture and all 
the other desirable things to attain from an educa­
tion by a white teacher being there?

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



127a

The Witness: Yes. One thing about young chil­
dren is their distance from home seems to have some 
effect on the way they feel about school. I think 
it’s important that they be at least fairly close to 
home and not be bussed. As you get down to the 
fundamentals of this, I would not object strenuously 
to the moving of children about if they were older 
but I certainly would not want to see the younger 
children moved a great deal. Junior-high-school- 
level youngsters, for example, are probably twelve 
or thirteen years of age and they are capable of 
getting around; they know how to get on and off 
of a bus; they know, you know, the community, and 
they know the route which they take and so forth. 
But young children do not really have a perception

—78—
of this. For instance, a young child’s perception of 
time and distance is very, very poor.

The Court: Well, from your experience both ac­
tually from your teaching and your work and ex­
periments and tests that have been conducted and 
so forth, what do you feel is the best, the most 
desirable way to achieve this? Now one way is to 
give every child—white, Negro, Indian, Japanese, 
or whatever child is in the system—complete free­
dom to go to whatever school they select. Now if you 
do not do that, how do you achieve what you’re talk­
ing about so far as the student—I’m not talking 
about the teacher now—is concerned, other than to 
set up some sort of a system in the school whereby 
they are purposely bussed out of the neighborhood, 
if that is necessary to do it in order to achieve that, 
just to achieve an intermixture of the races?

Myrl G. Merman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



128a

The Witness: Well, what you say is true. You 
would almost have to do this.

The Court: Well, which do you feel is the most 
desirable method, for the School Board to force the 
child to do something that the child and his parents 
do not desire or to give the child a complete, un­
restricted and uninhibited freedom of choice to 
choose his school?

The Witness: That would be hard to say. It
—79—

would depend on the community and I really don’t 
know the community well enough to make this kind 
of judgment. Ordinarily you could make some kind 
of blanket statement here but whatever it would be 
might be wrong as far as the community is con­
cerned, and I don’t have that knowledge.

The Court: Well now, just one other question 
about teachers. As I understand, what you have tes­
tified to in substance is this: that you would think 
it would be a desirable thing for any school system 
to take the teachers they now have and then ask 
those teachers if they are willing to teach in a school 
where a race different from theirs is predominant. 
If they say no, to leave them where they are. If 
they say yes, then that the School Board should then 
further examine those teachers with reference to the 
subjects and grade level that they are teaching to 
see whether they have to displace somebody else 
over at another place, and consider their personality 
and other qualifications on a fair, objective basis 
without regard to race, and then attempt to place 
those teachers who are willing to—

The Witness: Yes.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



129a

The Court: —in the system now.
The Witness: Yes.

—80—
The Court: And then as you employ new teachers, 

that they be employed solely on the basis of merit, 
in other words, that you do not consider race what­
ever. If you are going to use this College Achieve­
ment Score or whatever that organization was we 
spoke of, that you take a person, the degrees held 
—that is, their academic achievement, their score 
on the board—if they used that, if they used that— 
That is a non-discriminatory sort of thing, isn’t it?

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: And then the interview for person­

ality and ease of communicating with other pupils, 
and make an honest decision based on that for the 
place where there is a vacancy.

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: And then that the Superintendent 

and the Board should have wide latitude in judging 
those intangibles and get the best person they can, 
and leave the race entirely out of it. Do you think 
that’s the best way of achieving that?

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: What is your feeling—Somebody 

said something about seventh-grade English. Let’s 
use ninth-grade mathematics; I suppose they teach 
mathematics in the ninth grade. Suppose that you

—8 1 -
ha d, well for example, a white teacher who says, 
“Yes, I am willing to teach, in any school in the 
system, ninth-grade mathematics. That’s my field.” 
But there is no other teacher of ninth-grade mathe-

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross



130a

matics in the system, and certainly not in a pre- 
dominantly-Negro school, who is willing to teach in 
a predominantly-white school. How would you treat 
that? You would have one willing person but no 
place to put that person.

The Witness: Well, in this case you would have 
a vacancy; I would transfer the teacher, say, to 
the Negro school and fill the vacancy with a new 
teacher which would be the best-qualified person 
that you could find.

The Court: I know, but you are displacing that 
Negro teacher. You see, you’ve got a teacher in 
the ninth grade in the Negro school and that teacher 
is not willing to leave.

The Witness: Oh, I see, you don’t have a vacancy; 
in that case, you wouldn’t have a transfer and you 
would have to hold this in abeyance until there 
was a chance, say, for two people even to switch 
positions. The experience of school districts in 
this type of thing has been that they first have a 
fairly large number of people, a substantial num­
ber who say they are qualified and are willing to 
teach a segregated class of another race or an

—82—
integrated class or a desegregated class. They are 
classified differently; in other words, they had three 
different kinds of choices. But the experience has 
been that there is a fairly good number of people 
who will do it, then as time goes on there are fewer 
people who want to do this; then after a period 
of four or five years there tends to be an upswing 
of quite a number of people who have the willing­

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Cross

ness.



131a

The Court: Well, let me ask you this one further 
question and then I am through. How would you 
treat a situation where you have a white or Negro 
teacher who told you, and you were the Super­
intendent of Schools, “I am willing to go to any 
school in the system without regard to race and 
teach the subjects that I am qualified to teach, but 
I want to tell you, sir, that I do not feel that I am 
qualified to teach in a predominantly-white school,” 
if it’s a Negro teacher, or vice versa; that, “I am. 
willing if you want me to go, I will go, but I tell 
you that in my opinion I am not qualified to do that” ; 
what would you do if you were Superintendent?

The Witness: In that case I would have a tendency 
not to have the person transferred, unless my own 
reasoning and my own experience with this person 
previously, what I knew about this person, would

— 8 3 -
lead me to believe that this person has this willing­
ness and has always done a good job before, has 
tried and has worked hard, and I can therefore put 
her in this position and she will probably succeed; 
then that kind of judgment can be made. I think 
that the Superintendent and the staff will have to 
be given some leeway.

# # * # #
-—84-—

Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. On cross examination I believe you told Mr. Spears 
that you didn’t see anything wrong with the School Board 
policy of hiring the best teacher that’s available for a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



132a

vacancy. What would be your view of a School Board 
policy that hired the best white teacher for a vacancy in 
a school with white children and the best Negro teacher 
for a school with Negro children? A. Well, that’s not 
what I inferred and that would not be the best way to 
get the best person for the job.

Q. This morning in your examination you made refer­
ence to the hiring policies of the Durham system, which 
you said you approved. To what were you referring? 
A. I was referring to the statement of policy prepared by 
the school district.

Q. A  written document that you read? A. That’s right. 
That did not contain anything with reference to the race 
question.

—85—
The Court: I ’m sorry, I did not hear the last 

part of that ansvrer, “not” something.
The Witness: The material that I read had no 

reference whatsoever to the race question in refer­
ence to employment.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. You testified also in response to questions by counsel 
for the Board and perhaps in answer to the Court’s ques­
tion on the subject of the willingness of teachers to teach 
in a different situation from the past, willingness to teach 
in a school with children of the other race with a faculty 
of the other race, and you thought they should only be 
assigned where they were willing. Do you apply that to 
the new employees who are coming into the school system? 
A. No. I think that when people are being interviewed 
for a new position, as new people within the school sys-

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—-Redirect



133a

tem, that they should be aware of what that position is 
that they are interviewing for or in general. There are 
occasions when a school system has a very specific posi­
tion that may be a Negro or a white school. Regardless 
of who is being interviewed, they should have this made 
clear to them, that they are being interviewed for this 
particular position. There are times when you do have 
to do some blanket hiring and employing. You know, for 
example, that you usually have from year to year a num­
ber of vacancies which occur, say, at the second grade;

— 86—

this occurs every year, you have a turnover rate. And 
sometimes you try to beat other school systems to the 
punch by employing people you would like to have before 
other people get them. In other words, if you wait too 
long—you know you’re going to have vacancies and you 
know if you wait, you won’t have a wide number of people 
available to interview, so you may hire on a blanket basis 
under some conditions.

I don’t know whether the Durham system does this or 
not but most school systems do. In most eases you are 
employing people without their full knowdedge of the 
exact position they are going to have; and in those cases 
you would employ the best person you could, and again 
without reference to race.

Q. In other words, at that point would you consider the 
teacher’s attitude with respect to willingness to teach at 
a school with children of another race? A. I would refer 
to there is a possibility of being assigned, say, to one 
school or another. But I certainly would not—you know, 
I would pay no attention to whether they said—If they 
said, “I ’ll only teach only in a white school,” you would 
have to say, “Well, this is a blanket type of thing. You

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



134a

may be appointed to either school.” You wouldn’t take 
this into consideration.

Q. Would there be other situations where perhaps at 
the end of the year, close to the beginning of a new school 
year, where you would be hiring people not for a specific

•—-87—
job! A. Yes. Sometimes you’ve got vacancies which occur 
on towards the end of the summer, even before school 
starts, and there’s nothing you can do about them. A 
woman’s husband is transferred or someone becomes ill 
and will not be able to teach, or these kinds of things: 
these are the vagaries of the employment in the school.

In these cases, too, I think you need to employ the best 
person without regard to race, and this should be a ques­
tion really.

Q. You were also asked questions with respect to the 
National Teacher Examination; you indicated you ap­
proved of the use of them. Would you indicate specifically 
what you think it should be used for, whether it should 
be used as the sole criteria or in connection with other 
things? A. Well, it should not be the sole criterion by 
which a person is judged. There are other factors which 
would be important, and these were mentioned before. 
But as I understand it, according to what I read, the 
Durham school system would use this as sort of a minimum 
screening device. In other words, if you made a score of 
500 you then became eligible for interview, at which time 
other things might be considered.

I might say this, by the way, I would not take the 
National Teachers Examination score as the basis; in 
other words, if somebody made a 781 and somebody else

— 88—

made a 780, I don’t think that’s a reason for taking one

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs-—Redirect



135a

person over the other in that that test is not that reliable. 
But if you are going to use it as a minimum screening 
device—in other words, anyone over 500 will he con­
sidered by the school system and not those below—I think 
that would he adequate.

Mr. Jarvis: What was the last thing you said! 
I ’m sorry, I didn’t hear it. What was the last thing 
you said?

The Witness: I said if you used the 500 level as 
the screening level, everyone above would be eligible, 
those below not eligible, I think that would be an 
adequate way in which to use it.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What about using it for evaulating present em­
ployees? A. I don’t think you actually can do this. You 
have already registered your confidence in people who 
already are employed in the school system. You have 
some of them who probably have been employed for 
many, many years, and I don’t think that you can be 
retroactive with a group of people who have already served 
the school district for perhaps a long period of time.

Q. Now you answered questions with respect to your 
view of the free choice plan for assigning children and 
I think you indicated that you would have to know more 
about the particular community. Could you indicate what

- 8 9 -
in your view are the variables, the things that would tend 
to make it better or worse? A. Well, open transfer sys­
tems, open enrollment plans operate more effectively when 
you have such a thing as, say, a homogeneous social class ; 
that is, both Negro, white, Chinese populations, what have

Myrl G. Herman— for Plaintiffs— Redirect



136a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

you, would be from the same social class level. There 
would tend to be no restrictions here in terms of the way 

\ people would move. But if you have multiple class levels, 
i then people would tend to be affected by whatever their 

social class distinctions are.
Another thing you are affected by is something like 

the history of an area. If you have the history of a com­
munity, it may be such that some things would be un- 

1 desirable and some things would be desirable, but the his- 
I tory of a community would affect how people would 

decide where their children would go to school under an 
i open transfer system.

Another thing would be general community attitudes. 
This may be somewhat repeating the history thing. But if 
you look at the present attitudes that prevail in a com­
munity, which may have just been arrived at yesterday 
—after all, attitudes can only be a day or two old—but 

\ attitude structure of the people in the community again 
would have some effect on an open transfer system, would 
either inhibit it or promote it ; and I don’t know anything 
about those variables in the City of Durham.

—90—
Q. What- would be your view of beginning teacher de­

segregation by starting out with a very small number of 
Negro teachers in white schools, say one single pioneer 
type of thing! A. Well, I would say if this were to be 
done in any one school, there should be at least two teach­
ers who are not part of the predominant group, mainly 
because a person who would be absolutely alone, say, 
among a large group of people, would feel left out com­
pletely. All of the research on group dynamics points to 
the fact that a person who is screened out or ostracized 
by a group or who feels different than a group, regardless



137a

of how the group feels about him, would not be in a very 
good psychological position. I don’t think he would be in 
a good psychological position to teach so he would need 
some reinforcement from another individual. I really think 
the number needs to be substantial enough that you can 
say you are actually carrying on desegregation or you 
shouldn’t do it. You know, it’s not worth doing if you’re 
going to do some things which defeat the ends here.

In other words, you might—this could be an instrument 
for destroying desegregation, so to speak, if you had so 
few teachers in a building that they felt somewhat iso­
lated; you could destroy the purpose of the whole thing. 
So the number should be substantial enough that people 
have others like themselves with whom they can relate, 
at least occasionally or have lunch with them or talk with 
them about some problems they may have in the building.

—91—
Q. You testified that school authorities have to use their 

judgment and their discretion about who to pick for a 
particular job or who they think will do, both in the hiring 
process and in transfer. Suppose this School Board de­
cided that in its best judgment only Negro teachers were 
qualified for a Negro school; what do you, as an educator, 
think of that! A. Well, I think the School Board in that 
case would have to examine its conscience and its own 
convictions because if they were to apply themselves to 
hiring the best people for any position, this would not be 
likely to happen. It might happen in an instance, but not 
in a number of instances.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs— Redirect

Mr. Nabrit: Your witness.



138a

Recross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. I believe you stated that you were not familiar with 
the variables here in the Durham city school system? A. 
No.

Q. Therefore, you have no opinion on that, do you? A. 
No.

Q. That is, as to the adequacy here of the free-enroll- 
ment policy? A. No. I don’t contend to make any con­
jectures here about what should be true here. I can only

—9 2 -
say that there are general principles that operate; there 
are general problems other districts have had, and so forth.

Q. And they would be general but they would have to be 
applied. They might not be applied in one locality and 
applied in another locality? A. That’s true.

Q. I believe you stated that if you have a minimum of 
500 score on your National Teachers Examination and any 
person who makes an application with a score of 350 or 
450, you simply do not consider those? A. If you have 
that as a policy, then that would be true and would be 
applied to everyone.

Q. Yes, and then all above 500, you could then consider 
those and determine which is the best-qualified person to 
fill any position? A. Yes, without reference to score any 
more except to wide differences. It might be that 800, you 
know, would be better than 600.

Q. In other words, if they are under 500 simply don’t 
ask for an interview; if they are above 500, then if other 
statements in the application, experience and so forth and 
educational qualifications, then you could ask for an inter­
view? A. Yes.

Q. But a teacher who made 800 might be as good a 
teacher as one who made 700, isn’t that right? A. That’s

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Recross



139a

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs—Recross

■—93—
true. You can use the score if there is a wide difference, 
only I think you are a little bit risky in using the scores 
of the National Teachers Examination by using these dif­
ferences because if you look at the scoring process itself, 
the way the norms were set up, the difference between a 
700 and an 800 score on the test is maybe only one or two 
test items; it’s a very small number of items, so it’s really 
not too reliable. But if you are using a screening point, 
use that point and let the rest go.

Q. You use a cutoff point and then after that, you inter­
view them? A. Yes.

Q. And it is proper to have an interview with a teacher 
you are going to employ, isn’t it? A. I should say it is.

Q. Because there are intangibles other than the actual 
score on the examination? A. Yes.

Q. And taking all of those into consideration, then you 
would say the Board should employ the best teacher avail­
able who made application for that particular opening in 
the school? A. Yes.

Q. Now you speak about vacancies; a vacancy in the first 
grade and a vacancy in the seventh grade, they are both

—9 4 -
vacancies, aren’t they? A. Yes.

Q. So if you want to employ a teacher for a vacancy in 
the first grade, then you look for an efficient, qualified 
first-grade teacher, don’t you? A. You look for a teacher 
who has primary training and. who will do well in that job.

Q. Then if you get into junior high school, say the 
seventh, eighth, and ninth, or senior high, tenth, eleventh, 
and twelfth grade, and you have a vacancy there, you are 
looking for the best-qualified teacher to fill that vacancy? 
A. Yes.



140a

Q. Now the teachers that have already been teaching 
for a number of years, that experience is worth a lot to 
the local school system, isn’t it, so long as they meet the 
other qualifications? A. There would be a debate on that. 
I think anyone who is in the profession would point out 
to you quickly that somewhere around the fifth year there 
is usually no appreciable—What shall I say?—improve­
ment because of experience. Beyond that point some other 
factor or variable has to come into operation, such as his 
further graduate training or something of that sort. But 
most of what one will learn from experience is learned 
in about the first five years. However, almost all school 
systems place a value on experience; we all accept it. The

—95—
longer you are with the school system, the more money 
you make, just as a general factor, accepted everywhere.

Q. I believe in North Carolina after thirteen years you 
get the maximum salary for your certificate, isn’t that right? 
A. Yes.

Q. So they consider in North Carolina—you’re not quar­
reling with that—thirteen years experience is considered 
valuable as far as compensation is concerned? A. I accept 
whatever is done by the school system or by the State by 
statute in this respect. There is nothing that can be done 
about this, but the actual facts of it are I think that around 
the fifth year we tend to get minimal improvement as far 
as a person’s experience is concerned.

Mr. Spears: That’s all. Thank you.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. One more question. When teachers are trained to be 
teachers, do they specialize in a particular grade or groups

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect



141a

of grades or what? A. Well, if they are elementary- 
school teachers, they ordinarily stipulate their training in 
this way: A kindergarten teacher ordinarily does take 
some kindergarten courses separate from primary, but 
she is also considered a primary teacher and she takes 
primary training.

Q. What are the primary grades? A. The primary
—96—

grades would be kindergarten through the third grade, 
ordinarily. For the middle grades or the fourth through 
sixth grade, they would take a similar training but it 
would be slightly different in some cases. So you’ve got 
a specialization, primary, kindergarten, and middle grades. 
And then junior high school usually has a separate certi­
fication and sometimes in some states—I don’t know how 
it is here—but in some states junior high certification is 
different from secondary schools certification; in others 
it’s the same. I don’t know which is true here.

Mr. Nabrit: That’s all.
Mr. Spears: All right, come down.
The Court: Mr. Herman, let me ask you this 

question to clarify it. I ’m not sure. I f you were 
Superintendent of the schools and you were trying 
to do the fair and right and best thing and not dis­
criminate against anybody and you had some va­
cancies, we’ll say, in junior high mathematics and 
a teacher came in with a high score, with good aca­
demic training and experience, good personality, and 
that teacher says, “Well, I will accept your employ­
ment. I would like to be a part of your system; I 
will come into your system. But I will only teach 
in a Negro school” ; or another person said, “I will

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect



142a

accept it. I will only teach in this school, but I will 
be glad to accept employment.” You wouldn’t know

—97—
whether you were going to get another applicant 
that anywhere near met the qualifications of that 
teacher. You had no more. What would you do 
with a situation like that?

The Witness: Well, I would make it clear to the 
person to whom I was talking that no such thing 
could be done, except that we would try to accommo­
date them if they felt this way, but future assign­
ment might have them to be transferred. Because 
this person was excellently qualified, was an excellent 
teacher, I might go over to the Negro school and 
ask a teacher there if she would like to move to a 
white school and I would put this person in there 
with the full knowledge that she had not put a club 
over my head and that, you know, “I would feel 
free to transfer you in the future.” You can lay it 
on the line with them.

The Court: But if they said, “I will not accept 
employment if I ’m going to be transferred. I will 
accept employment for this purpose and for no other. 
If you want me, all right. If not, well—”

The Witness: Well, if you hold the Sword of 
Damocles over my head like that, no, I will not 
employ you.

The Court: All right.
The Witness: No, I don’t think a school system at

—98—
any time should be threatened or clubbed into con­
ceding in this ease.

Myrl G. Herman-—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect



143a

The Court: Well, Pm not talking about threaten­
ing. A  person says, “I will accept the employment 
under certain conditions.” Like a person at a bank 
might want to employ a man and they say the con­
ditions of employment are so-and-so, and they say, 
“No, I will accept your employment on these condi­
tions,”  It might be a salesman, the man is trying 
to employ him and he says, “You’ll have to cover 
seven states,” and he says, “No, I can’t be away from 
home that much but I will take four states.”

The Witness: Well, in the professional ranks of 
teaching you just don’t let things like this occur. 
You know it is holding a club over our head, the way 
we would accept it; I ’m sure Mr. Hannen would 
accept it that way, too.

The Court: Well now, there is just one other 
thing. You said something about in this freedom of 
choice or transfer of students, you said you felt that 
it would be freely exercised if the students of all 
the races involved were of the same general—I don’t 
think you used “economic”-—

The Witness: I said socio-economic.
The Court: —status, then there would be more of

—99—
a tendency, but that as that widened there would be 
less. What has been your experience as to this: Is 
it or is it not true that you would have that same 
problem, without regard to race, in every nation on 
the face of the earth that there is a natural tendency 
always for people to seek association, social and 
otherwise, with people that they have something in 
common with?

The Witness: This is true.

Myrl G. Herman— for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect



144a

The Court: Isn’t there a tendency for a person 
working in the hank down here making $10,000.00 a 
year to feel ill at ease living in a neighborhood with 
people making $200,000.00 a year, who send their 
children to Europe every summer and each one of 
them have an automobile, and he can’t possibly have 
that?

The Witness: Yes, I think there is a tendency for 
people to feel like this. However, I think when a 
school system has a program—let’s say if you’ve got 
this open-enrollment program, you have it as a pro­
gram because you support it, because it is your pro­
gram; you’ve organized it. Then I think you also 
have an obligation to implement it; in other words, 
you should work at it. You shouldn’t say we have 
this and then just let it sit from there on because 
a lot depends on the educational level of people.

— 100—

I Uneducated people do not know the value of educa­
tion and they do not respect it as much as others,

I nor do they know what might be available elsewhere 
I in terms of an education; and so they aren’t likely to 

have their children go somewhere else. This is sort 
of a basic weakness of people.

But I think a school system should work at im­
plementing any program which they support. I might 
say that school systems which do work at imple­
menting an open-transfer system probably eventu­
ally will have bigger problems than they ever had 
before because if they really work at it and the 
open-transfer system is taken advantage of, you tend 
to get a great many people wanting to get in the

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—-Redirect



145a

same building; then you have to start making de­
cisions.

The Court: Well, this has nothing to do with it 
and we’ve got too much to do, but I was just inter­
ested in your experience in this field, if you thought 
a school board would be making a contribution to the 
welfare of the children: Say there is no question of 
race involved, let’s say they are all white, and you 
have one community over here with a junior high 
school serving an area and they’re in a lower eco­
nomic strata; the children have adequate clothing 
and everything but they do not have a great deal, 
but they are in the same general economic strata.

— 101—

Then the adjoining school happens to be a section 
where the average income of the parents is $15,000.00 
a year more and those children have a lot more 
wealth. Do you think a school board would make a 
contribution to either of those groups by encouraging 
each to go to the other school?

The Witness: My answer would be no, and I would 
have to qualify it just to some extent and that is 
unless there was some program which had been or­
ganized to take care of this in some way. This would 
be a difficult program to organize, by the way.

The Court: Well, it’s just a thing that sort of 
caught my interest and, as I say, that last question 
has no relationship to what we are talking about.

The Witness: Well, there would be a lot of forces 
here which would be negative.

The Court: Well, thank you, Mr. Herman.
The Witness: Thank you.

Myrl G. Herman—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect



146a

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct
— 102—

*  *  *  *  #

Doctor Joseph S. Himes was called as a witness on 
behalf of the Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was 
examined and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. State your full name. A. Joseph S. Himes.
# # # # #

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Himes—Doctor—what is your profession? A. I 
am Professor and Chairman of the Department of Soci­
ology of North Carolina College.

Q. Would you give us a brief resume of your educational 
background? A. Yes. I have a Bachelor’s and Master’s 
Degree from Oberlin College, a Ph.D. from Ohio State 
University, and one year of post-doctor study at the Uni­
versity of California at Berkeley.

Q. And what has your work experience been in the pro­
fessional field? A. Well, my major experiences, I did so-

—103—
cial work in Columbus, Ohio, for about eight years. Then 
I have been at North Carolina College since 1946; now while 
there I taught in the summers at Sacramento State College 
in California, Syracuse University. I taught one year as 
a full Professor at Helsinki University in Finland, and last 
summer I taught for the University of North Carolina in 
an extension summer institute in Winston-Salem. These 
are the main ones.

Q. Are you a member of professional societies in soci­
ology? A. Well, I belong to a good many; if I may men­
tion just the more important ones, perhaps. I am a Fellow



147 a

of the American Sociological Association. I belong to the 
International Sociologists Association. I am on the Board 
of Directors of the National Council on Family Relations. 
Perhaps the most important is that I am at the last moment 
President of the Southern Sociological Society. And there 
are some others if you would care to have a whole list.

Q. No, that is sufficient enough. How long have you lived 
in the Durham area! A. Since 1946.

Q. Now, Doctor Himes, do you have an opinion with 
respect to the value of teacher or faculty desegregation 
and the effects of desegregation or segregation on children, 
Negro and white children, in the schools! A. Yes.

—104—
Q. Would you set forth—would you explain your opin­

ion and your views and your reasons for them to His 
Honor? A. There’s a great deal of research and profes­
sional judgment with which I agree that argue that the de­
segregation of faculties in public schools benefits the chil­
dren. To mention some of the points, for Negro children in 
desegregated schools to have some Negro teachers about has 
important morale value; here is somebody with whom they / 
can identify from their own group. It gives them a sense j  
of belonging to the school organization.

If there are Negro teachers on the school faculty, this 
shows the children that they, as Negroes, are more fully / 
included in the school’s organization, the school process, f 
than if all the teachers are white and most of their school­
mates are white.

Now the result of this is emotional and psychological.
It results in higher morale; it pays dividends in greater 
motivation for these children. They feel less threatened 
by the school situation and hence they are more willing to 
try. They feel more enthusiasm about their schoolwork

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



148a

under these circumstances, and thus their potentialities for 
successful achievement and performance are more fully 
released. As a result, for Negro children in a school of this 
sort where there are Negro teachers, generally speaking 
their performance is better, their morale is higher, their

—1 0 5 -
sense of belonging is deeper.

Now to have Negro teachers in schools with white teach­
ers where children are mixed has benefits for the white 
children as well. I think there is a great deal of opinion and 
research that stresses this point, as Mr. Herman said this 
morning, bringing out that children who are today going to 
school, to public schools, particularly those in the elemen­
tary and junior high schools, will in ten or fifteen years be 
entering the military service and the labor market, labor 
force; and these are parts of our world which are now very 
substantially desegregated and which will in ten or fifteen 
years be even more desegregated. And these children are 
going to have to train with other people of both races. 
They may often be under the direction of officers of the op­
posite race. They will work with persons of the opposite 
race and under the supervision of, sometimes, often, per­
sons of the opposite race.

To have an interracial experience in elementary and 
junior high school and high school now where both their 
schoolmates and their teachers are racially mixed, prepares 
them in a reality situation for the kind of world they’re 
going to have to live in when they’re out of school. This is 
one of the benefits for white children, that they will have 
an actual experience in school where supervisors and mates

—1 0 6 -
are both white and Negro. This is analogous to what they 
will experience, at least many of them.

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



149a

And children—One of the great resources of American 
society, American communities, is the idealism of people. 
This is what a great deal of America is about and children, 
young people, have much more of this than we older, more 
experienced, and I ’m afraid sometimes cynical, people. 
Now if children find in their schools that the democracy 
that they hear about a good deal is exemplified in the fact 
that all the people in the community, without reference to 
color, are part of the school situation, that ideals are the 
same—this is so tremendously important, that society can 
be released into actuality into their lives. This I think is 
an important benefit to our children.

Then a third thing that the white children can derive 
from this kind of school experience is that—with Negro 
mates and Negro teachers—is that they have a wide experi­
ence with more different kinds of people, and I think we 
believe very much that this is a good thing for people. We 
spend a lot of money going to Europe and other places to 
see other people, other kinds of people. Well, we might as 
well get it right here, to see other kinds of people, people 
who are part of our community, and come to know them.

Now I think the mixing of Negro and white teachers in 
school faculties has advantages to the teachers—

—107—
Mr. Jarvis: Object.

A. —and if I may—

Mr. Jarvis: I object at this point, may it please 
the Court.

The Court: Overruled. Go ahead.

A. If I may just mention one or two points here. In a 
school where there are Negro and white children and there

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



150a

are also Negro teachers along with white teachers, the Ne­
gro teachers may if necessary serve as a resource for the 
white teachers. In the event they have questions or things 
they don’t understand, they can turn to their white faculty 
mates for interpretations and expressions and understand­
ing of the problems that they may be having with Negro 
children. It’s resource ready to hand in their colleagues, 
to work together in a situation of this sort; and I think 
this would be particularly true with some of the first white 
and Negro teachers that work together.

It’s a challenging experience primarily because it’s new, 
but because, in our community I ’m afraid, also some dan­
gers. It’s a challenging experience and it may very well 
draw out more of the best from good teachers than we 
might otherwise get.

Then again I think it’s desirable, it’s beneficial, for Ne­
gro and vThite teachers to work together; again, it’s an en­
riching experience. They work with, they learn about, they

— 108—

come to understand people in the community that they 
might never otherwise notice, in this way.

I am saying that as I see it, and I think there’s a great 
deal of evidence in the field of sociology to suggest, that 
the mixing of Negro and white teachers has benefit for 
Negro children, white children, and all teachers.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Doctor Himes, when you refer to evidence or sources 
in the field of sociology, do you have any specific studies 
in mind? A. Well, I can suggest some sources. There have 
been, as Mr. Herman said this morning, a great many 
studies. This is a subject that has been studied a great

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



151a

deal, and in the last ten years particularly. Let me men­
tion three sources that are themselves pretty comprehen­
sive summaries of many studies.

One of these is a very excellent little book entitled “ The 
American Negro Profile” by Thomas Pettigrew of Harvard 
University. In this book Professor Pettigrew has summar­
ized from the point of view of a social psychologist prob­
ably at the time of its publication everything that was rele­
vant on this subject. It was published I think perhaps 
about five years ago.

There is a rather monumental and exhaustive summary 
of research in the field entitled “Racial and Cultural Minor­
ities” by George Simpson and J'. Milton Yinger of Oberlin 
College. I have nothing to do with them. This is about the

-—109—
most comprehensive compilation and summary in the field 
and there is a great deal of material relating specifically to 
school matters.

Another book that—

Mr. Jarvis: Pardon me, Doctor Himes. What was 
the name of that last book? “Racial and Cultural—” 

The Witness: “Racial and Cultural Minorities” 
by Simpson and Yinger.

Mr. Jarvis: Yinger?
The Witness: Yes, Y-i-n-g-e-r.
Mr. Jarvis: Thank you.
The Witness: Yes.

Continuing:

A. There is another fairly recent book—although it is not 
devoted entirely to Negro-white problems, it does have a 
very long section—and it’s called “Minorities in American 
Society” by Marden and Meyer.

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



152a

Now there is a great deal of other material but I mention 
these because in this way I can sort of capture a great deal 
of material in three titles.

I might mention one article that I would recommend very 
strongly. I am not altogether sure about the title of the 
article, but I can give you enough of the source that you 
can find it if you’re interested. It’s by Professor Daniel 
Katz; it’s in the “American Psychologist” for June 1964. 
Now Professor Katz as a social psychologist studied the 
experiences of Negro and white children in desegregated-

— 110-

school situations and segregated-school situations both at 
the public-school and the college level over a period of about 
eight years, and in this article summarized his basic find­
ings. Now he was interested in this article particularly to 
answering the question on how does a desegregated experi­
ence affect Negro children and white children, what factors 
seem to be decisive in making for a good educational experi­
ence or a poor educational experience.

One of the main things he says is that if the school oper­
ates properly that a desegregated experience is a better 
educational experience for all children, both white and Ne­
gro, than a segregated school situation.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Doctor Himes, have you any observations or opinion 
with respect to the faculty integration in institutions you 
have been connected with? A. Yes. Well, I suppose the 
best experience, of course, is my own college where I have 
been there now—this is my twentieth year; and ever since 
I have been there we have had both white and Negro teach­
ers. We have had Chinese teachers and Indian teachers,

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



1 5 3 a

and we have always had a desegregated faculty at our col­
lege.

In my department—and I know it perhaps more inti­
mately than any part of the college—we have a mixed fac­
ulty. We have seven people; two of these are white teach­
ers. It is my considered judgment that the mixed faculty

— 111—

provides a better experience for both faculty and for stu­
dents. For us, the Negro teachers, to have white colleagues 
provides both a real and psychological, sometimes a vicari­
ous as well as a real intellectual and academic stimulus. 
Frequently our white colleagues have access to experiences 
that are not accessible to us. We can get these experiences 
vicariously from them.

To take one specific illustration, from my colleagues in 
my department I get a great deal of the—well, it’s really 
the important professional gossip, if I may use the term, of 
what goes on at the University of North Carolina and Duke 
University and other universities where I don’t have the 
contacts. Now this is professional knowledge. I call it 
“gossip” because it’s not what you find in professional 
journals, but it’s important to a professional.

Let me give you another illustration of the kind of bene­
fits. One of my colleagues in sociology has a Ph.D. from 
Ohio State University; therefore, he has professionally 
quite good training; he is a competent sociologist. One of 
my white colleagues only has a Master’s Degree, but she 
has had a tremendous experience traveling in Europe and 
South America, Latin America, and in Asia. She has had 
a vast experience working in international relations at the 
semi-diplomatic and diplomatic levels. She speaks at least 
three languages other than English. Now she is able to 
bring to me and to my colleagues and to my students a

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



154a

— 112—

breadth and a depth and a richness of experience com­
pletely outside of the narrow confines of sociology that my 
colleague with the Ph.D. cannot bring, because he hasn’t 
had this kind of experience.

In my judgment this is important for students to have 
this kind of experience because again I remind you that our 
students from North Carolina College are going to enter 
an increasingly-desegregated world where the demands 
upon them for knowledge and skill and performance are 
becoming more and more like those of everybody else, not 
just demands for Negroes; and we need to be able to pro­
vide them more and more of the kind of thing that prepares 
them for this sort of experience.

Well, this is sort of a long answer, but my point is that I 
think, I think—in fact, I know, in terms of my own experi­
ence—that the desegregated faculty has important benefits 
for the faculty itself, for both the Negro and white faculty 
members, and for our students in the college; and I would 
venture to say that some of these same kinds of forces are 
in operation at the public-school level.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Doctor Himes, do you think the effect of a policy of 
faculty segregation on the teachers and pupils—that is, a 
policy of limiting the faculty at a school with all Negro pu­
pils to Negro teachers and the faculty of white schools to 
white teachers—what kinds of effects does it have on the

— 113—

educational process of the teachers and the pupils? A. 
Well, people tend to infer from this fact of segregation at 
both teacher and pupil levels that the Negro schools are 
inferior to the white schools. Now I don’t argue that this

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



155a

is necessarily the fact, but the social realities and psycho­
logical realities of our community life indicate clearly that 
people draw this kind of inference. As a consequence the 
Negro people, parents, teachers, children, resent the infer­
ence of inferiority that results from enforced segregation. 
They are discontent, they resent it, there is hostility; and 
these are certainly not, I would argue, desirable sentiments 
and attitudes of our general community life.

Negro children who go to schools or Negro teachers who 
teach in schools which they think because they are segre­
gated are inferior are likely to be limited in their motiva­
tions to achieve and aspirations, the goals of their achieve­
ment. I know this is true because one of my jobs is to 
counsel the students in my department and particularly 
when they come to be juniors and seniors and try to help 
them to decide what they are going to do when they gradu­
ate. And one of the most difficult problems I have is to get 
Negro boys and girls who have all their lives lived in segre­
gated Negro communities, attended segregated Negro 
schools, worshipped in segregated Negro churches, to get 
them to see that it’s possible for them to aspire to some 
of the general advantages that exist in American society,

—114—
the scholarships and fellowships for graduate study, the 
jobs, and so on. They come to us by the hundreds every 
year and one of the hardest jobs I have is to get my stu­
dents to see that: “This means you. This is not for white 
people.”

One of the things that has happened to them in their 
twenty years segregated life is that they are now convinced 
that some things are for white people and some things are 
for Negroes. Now I am arguing that one of the damages 
that accrues from school segregation is this almost perma-

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



156a

nent and hopeless damage to the motivations and aspira­
tions and achievement levels of a substantial sector of our 
population.

At the same time I can think of at least two other un­
desirable consequences. Mr. Herman mentioned one of 
these this morning. If a school district such as Durham 
has only Negro teachers for Negro schools and white teach­
ers for white schools, that tends to segregate the reservoir 
of available teachers, to limit the reservoir. If a white 
school needs a teacher and there are three available compe­
tent, skilled, talented Negro teachers but they can’t teach 
in the white schools, they have simply been ruled off limits 
for their service in the school district.

This is an old experience and we know it; we have seen 
it many times. Because we had segregation in professional 
baseball for many years, we denied ourselves whole genera­
tions of Willie Mayses and Jackie Robinsons; and once we

—115—
desegregated we have had a veritable explosion of fantastic 
talent that before twenty years ago was sort of wasted in 
segregated, kind of third-class baseball. Now this is one 
of the social losses that accrue from a segregated system

Another very interesting consequence of a segregated 
system is that although a school district or school board 
may declare its policy as nonsegregation, but if it still has 
schools which are segregated in faculties, some schools 
which are segregated and all faculties or virtually all facul­
ties segregated, it is really saying to the people in the 
community that “what we do does not agree with what we 
say.” And people, social beings, they read our actions , 
much more than they read our words; and the people in j 
that community, both white and Negro, you see, will infer I 
from the fact that faculties are segregated that it means j

Dr. Joseph 8. Dimes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



157a

segregation is what should be. And if the community is in 
any degree committed to what all desegregation of the 
schools and facilities means, the existence of segregated 
faculties and segregated schools tends to negate this and 
really to support the segregation that is said to be ended.

Now there are other kinds of consequences that he didn’t 
mention, but I think this is all that I can think of at the 
moment.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Doctor Himes, as a sociologist would you have an
- l i e -

opinion with respect to the effect of faculty segregation on 
the operation of a free-choice assignment system, for chil­
dren to have a choice of schools? A. Yes. Well, this is 
related to the point that I was just making. If there is a 
very substantial amount of segregation in the school system 
—I’m not talking about policy; I ’m talking about what ac­
tually happens—if the faculties are completely or almost 
completely segregated, if the number of children involved 
in desegregated schools is minimal and only Negro chil­
dren, no white children, one of the things this says—and 
I am just fairly sure—it says to the Negro people that the 
freedom of choice is not really meant, that they aren’t 
really free, they are free in words but not in substantive 

•reality.
For example, in this community my impression is that 

the children—most of the children, Negro children, who are 
already attending previously all-white schools are from 
middle-class Negro families. Where these families—these 
families have a feeling of security to take the chance with 
this sort of thing, but many poor families with limited edu­
cation and relatively low-status occupations, and limited

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



158a

incomes, feel it rather risky; and they see—they see the 
pattern of the community which tends to confirm to them 
that this is not only risky but it’s not the general sort of 
thing now I am doing.

— 117-
Now I want to argue quite strongly that whatever the 

stated policy might he, if the facts of the situation seem 
to say to people that segregation in schools both at the 
level of pupils and teachers is the practice, then this will 
tend to reinforce and support the pattern in the minds of 
people and to discourage many Negro families and parents 
and their children from making the break with the past 
which is still the present.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Does this have to do with the concept of group co­
hesion? A. Well, yes. I think obviously these people, the 
people I am talking about who feel it risky to take these 
chances are— What I am saying is that these children and 
these parents will feel more comfortable with their chil­
dren attending a school where the teachers are Negroes and 
feel that it is much more risky attending a school where 
the teachers are white, the teachers are all white, where 
most of their mates are white; this is a risky thing. They 
feel comfortable, secure, with teachers and mates of their 
own racial group, and hence they do not break out of this 
—as one of the old sociologists said in a moment of pro­
found insight, that “birds of a feather flock together”— 
consciousness of kind. But I am saying that the conscious­
ness of kind in this instance is reinforced by the practice 
in the community.

—118—
Q. What happens too that’s sort of human nature prin­

cipally if you desegregate faculties? A. Human nature?

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



159a

Q. Well— A. Let’s see now, will you say that again 
so I ’m sure I am clear!

Q. What I am trying to say is—well, perhaps what 
kinds—When you say people feel it’s “ risky”— A. Yes.

Q. —what do you mean by that! A. Well, what I am 
suggesting is that parents are likely to feel that their 
children will be mistreated by white teachers in a school 
where all the teachers are white or mistreated by their 
white mates, that the parents themselves are taking risks 
of reprisals from their employers and people in the com­
munity.

As a matter of fact, while I can’t argue that any of this 
has happened in Durham, I do know that—-

The Court: You said what! I didn’t get that last 
statement.

The Witness: I said I cannot argue, because I 
don’t know the facts—I don’t know; I can’t argue 
either way as to whether this has happened in Dur­
ham.

A. (Continuing) —but I do know that it has happened in 
other places, that these kinds of things have happened

—119—
both to schoolchildren and to parents of schoolchildren.

But now I would say—I would say that there is nothing 
inevitable—as a sociologist, this is a professional opinion— 
that there is nothing inevitable in human nature that would 
tend to force people, sort of a natural force, to force people 
to stay always in a group of people of their own kind. This 
comes to be habitual but it is not human nature in the sense 
that it is hereditary or a driving force. So if the social 
forces permit it and encourage it, Negro children will go

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



160a

into desegregated schools with ease. But it’s the social 
pressures that tend to, not I think human nature or any 
land of inherent forces.

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What tendency does faculty desegregation have on 
such a choice; in what direction would it tend to effect it ? 
A. Faculty segregation or desegregation?

Q. Segregation. A. Segregation. Well, I would think, 
as I suggested, that if the faculties of the schools continue 
segregated, one of its consequences will be to encourage 
parents, both white and Negro, to continue sending their 
children to schools where teachers are of their same racial 
group. White parents will continue sending their children 
to schools—although they have freedom of choice—to 
schools where the teachers are white. Negro parents will 
tend—with, as we know, some exceptions—but will tend

— 120—

, to continue sending their children to schools where the 
[teachers are Negroes. And thus our policy of free choice is 
limited, negated, by our practice of faculty segregation.

Q. Doctor Himes, would you tell the Court about the na­
ture of the program you worked on last summer? A. Oh, 
yes, I ’ll be glad to. The Learning Institute of North Caro­
lina promoted a summer institute on the problems of school 
desegregation. It took place at the Advancement School 
in Winstom-Salem and it was financed by a grant from the 
Office of Economic Opportunities, and the program was 
run by the Extension Division of the University of North 
Carolina. It was for in-service junior high school teachers 
and principals, counselors and supervisors in North Caro­
lina. There were some 96 people enrolled in the program.



161a

I was employed as one of two people to teach a course, the 
university-level course in Racial and Cultural Minorities.

The aim in this course was not to persuade people to 
become unprejudiced or to become prejudiced. The aim 
was not to tell people how to desegregate schools. It was 
a study of the forces and factors involved in the relations 
of a Negro minority in a white dominant group in the 
United States, and in our region, particularly our region, 
with the aim to understand what happens and to under­
stand why it happens and to get some bases for planning 
what might be done to change these problems, although

— 121—

we do not engage specifically in the planning.
Q. What was the racial composition of the student body 

and who were they? A. They were all junior high school 
people from the State; they came from about 56 of the 
State’s 100 counties. About, almost even—I think there 
was something like 52 percent white and 48 percent Negro, 
and about the same kind of division between the men and 
women in the Institute. They varied in age; I don’t know. 
One gentleman I had in the class was well into his sixties, 
I am sure; then there were some very young teachers there, 
in their middle and lower twenties. Varying age and all 
kinds of dimensions.

In addition to the course in sociology in minority rela­
tions, each teacher-student took a course in education, lan­
guage, arts, reading, math, or something of that sort. And 
then there were structure activities, direct discussion group 
activities involving specific problems in school desegrega­
tion in the 56 counties and a number of school districts 
in the State, trying to turn up some ideas of what people 
might do specifically when they went back to their home 
communities in helping the school district to comply with

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



162a

the desegregation process as required by the Civil Rights 
Law of 1964.

We all of us lived at the Advancement School so we had 
many opportunities for personal contacts, to talk together,

— 122-

play together, and work together, and provide people not 
only a chance to learn about—Negroes the whites and 
whites the Negroes, to learn about one another from read­
ing books, but to learn about one another from living and 
working and playing together, and talking about what was 
for them a very real problem, hoping to find some answers 
or perhaps primarily to give some direction—not specific 
answers, direction-—in how to approach the problem and 
how to work at it to find answers to make up answers.

Q. Would you have a view with respect to the desirabil­
ity of such a program on the part of desegregation pro­
grams? A. Oh, I think they are virtually indispensable. 
This experience last summer told me a number of things 
and one of the things it told me was that given a situation 
where we are all of us, every school district in the State is 
under the pressures of the Civil Rights Law and the di­
rectives of the United States Office of Education to move 
forward on the front of pupil and teacher desegregation, 
we simply must have experiences of this sort where we 
learn all we can about the facts of intergroup relations, 
where we learn a great deal more than we now know about 
each other.

One of the calamitous consequences of segregation is the 
fact that Negro people do not know white people and white 
people do not know Negro people; and I say this with full 
recognition that many Southern white people claim that

—123—
they know the Negro. The facts just do not support this

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



163a

allegation, and we need to learn each other because we are 
going to have to more and more work together and live 
together. And institutes of this sort and other kinds of 
institutes where administration people and teachers of 
both racial groups share experiences as people, share ex­
periences as professional people, share experiences regard­
ing common problems, seem to me absolutely inescapable 
if we are going to both move forward and have harmony.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. All right, Doctor Himes, do you have any views with 
respect to the method of desegregating faculties in the 
public school system? A. Yes. I do indeed have some 
views. I ’m not sure how popular they may be in some 
quarters, but I am very much disenchanted with the free­
dom of choice as the method to do the job. Now the Civil 
Eights Law of 1964 gives school districts three years to do 
the job, until 1968, and I don’t think it can be done by a 
freedom of choice. I think that what we—

Q. Excuse me. You’re talking about pupils now or fac­
ulty? A. I ’m—

Q. You’re talking about pupils? A. Yes, I ’m talking 
about pupils. Is that what the question was addressed to?

Q. Wei, it wasn’t, but— A. Oh, I ’m sorry.
—124—

Q. Well, you go ahead and answer that one. A. Oh. 
Well, I think one of the consequences of the freedom of 
choice in many places is it’s going to aggravate the prob­
lem and really not achieve the end that would be hoped 
for. Now what it does, I think, is this. What’s involved, 
our Congress, our Congress—we the people—our Congress 
has decided for us, on our behalf and for us, that we must

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



164a

desegregate our schools. Now this was not “ those evil 
people in Washington” ; this was our Congress that we 
elected, I helped to elect to Congress, and the President— 
so did the rest of us—and they made this decision for us, 
that we must desegregate our schools, both pupils and teach­
ers. And they have given us the responsibility of imple­
menting this; they have given us certain broad—

The Court: Gentlemen, this is very interesting, 
but his argument as to why he does or doesn’t agree 
with the Courts or what they do, I don’t think is 
making any contribution. If we are ever going to 
get through—it’s very interesting and he’s a very 
well-lettered gentleman and I ’m enjoying it, but I 
don’t think we’re ever going to get through if we 
continue with this. It’s irrelevant to the issue we’re 
trying.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Let me ask you about the method of desegregating 
faculties. A. Methods! Yes.

—125—
Q. What sort of approach, concerning new employees and 

old employees, and— A. Yes. Yes. Well, I would agree 
pretty basically with what Mr. Herman said this morning. 
I think that he said that under the direction of the Court 
that the School Board ought to indicate that a reasonable 
proportion of the present faculty should be desegregated 
immediately. Now in my judgment, a “ reasonable propor­
tion” does not mean any percentage as small as one per­
cent or let’s say a sort of a—well, one teacher here and one 
teacher there on a trial experimental basis. This I think is 
unreasonable. I would say that a demand of the School

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Direct



165a

Board to desegregate 60 or 70 or 80 percent is also unrea­
sonable.

Now something that is not extremely large and virtually 
impossible to handle or something that is not so small and 
trivial, is what I mean by a “reasonable proportion.” These 
might very well include and perhaps even be more than the 
people who have voluntarily expressed an interest in ex­
changes and working in other schools. This is a beginning.

I agree with Mr. Herman that new teachers as employed 
ought to be assigned where needed without reference to 
race in any respect and that in addition, in reference to the 
other teachers who are already on the faculties, they 
would be encouraged—and I want to stress this word be-

— 126—

cause it seems to me it’s important here—-they would be 
encouraged to enter the desegregation process voluntarily 
and express interest that they be involved in the process 
and, as Mr. Herman indicated, there would be a matter of 
five, six, or seven years that all of the faculty in the district 
could be included.

Now I would think finally—well, two other things I would 
think ought to be involved in such a program. One, that 
the School Board must make a firm and clear policy on 
this matter that is acceptable to the Court and that is 
clearly communicated to all of the school personnel, the ad­
ministrative and teaching personnel; and second, that the 
School Board ought to carry on educational processes, pub­
lic relations processes, so that all those people who will 
be involved, the teachers, will know what they mean and 
will come to get as much understanding of what it means 
and does and its consequences as possible.

Dr. Joseph 8. Mimes—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Mr. Nabrit: Your witness.



166a

The Court: Let’s take a very brief recess.

(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)

Cross Examination by Mr. Jarvis:

Q. Doctor Himes, you have related to us your opinion 
as to some of the advantages that would accrue to the 
system here as a result of desegregation of the faculties? 
A. Yes.

—127—
Q. Do you agree with Doctor Herman that there might 

also be some disadvantages, even if temporary? A. Yes.
Q. Would you elaborate, if you would, please, sir, on 

some of the disadvantages that you might expect to result 
from it immediately, and if there would be any long-range 
disadvantages or impairment of the effectiveness of in­
struction? A. Yes. Well, I don’t see that there would be 
any significant long-range disadvantages from the deseg­
regation of faculties. Now this is what you’re talking about 
particularly ?

Q. Yes. A. Yes. Immediately, though, it’s entirely pos­
sible that in a given school where the faculty is deseg­
regated, if there had not been adequate preparation and 
people—the people immediately involved, the initial ones, 
were not willing to participate in this kind of situation, 
that there might develop tension in the school situation 
that would be disadvantageous, although I don’t say that 
this would happen necessarily in every case. If the deseg­
regation were adequately prepared and properly directed 
and controlled, this need not accrue.

Q. But I take it you would agree then, or it would be 
your opinion, that it is necessary for a good deal of “public

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



167a

relations work”—I believe as you put it— A. Yes.
—128—

Q- —in response to one of the other questions— A. 
Yes.

Q. —and that it is not something that you would expect 
should be done just immediately on a large-scale basis! 
A. Yes, I would agree with that, with one proviso: that 
you and I clarify what we mean by a “good deal.” Now 
if by a “good deal” you mean five years of preparation, 
I don’t think this is necessary. But I don’t think that 
teachers ought to be picked up and transferred tomorrow 
with no preparation of the teachers involved and of other 
teachers in the system. Now this need not require years 
and years to do.

Q. But it would require some time! A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And you would recommend that that be done before 

there is any significant degree of integration? A. I would 
recommend that that be done before and in terms of a 
firm and clear policy by the Board of Education to do it.

Q. All right, sir. I assume that you would agree that 
rapport between teacher and student and also between 
teachers and principal, between parent and teachers, is 
very important in an effective program of education? A. 
Yes, of course.

Q. Do you think that there would be any difficulties or 
would be any significant drop in the effectiveness or 
quality of instruction that you might expect immediately?

—129—
A. In terms of this rapport?

Q. Yes. A. Yes. Well, I don’t see why there should 
be any. We have ample experience in this community and 
in neighboring communities in this State that tells us 
that Negro professional people, teachers, social workers,

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs'—Cross



168a

our public health people, can work in mixed staffs with 
mixed clienteles and mixed families, families of the clients, 
quite adequately, successfully, sometimes indeed even 
brilliantly.

You see, 1 am saying that we have much evidence that 
says to us that just because this professional social worker, 
teacher, educator is a Negro and works with white col­
leagues and white clients or pupils, that you have to have 
that rapport; we know that this does not necessarily 
happen.

Q. Well, 1 assume that you would agree that you would 
be less likely to find bad rapport between a teacher and 
older students perhaps, even at the university level, you 
would expect less disadvantages and less effect on the rap­
port from integration? A. No, I wouldn’t expect less good 
rapport in the case of older students than in the case of 
younger students.

Q. I meant it just the opposite; perhaps I didn’t make it 
clear. Would you think that the relationship between an 
integrated faculty and the pupils, the students, at the uni­
versity level would probably be better initially than it

—130—
would be at an elementary level or junior-high level? A. 
I see no reason whatever to expect that. There may be 
reasons but I don’t see them, and the experiences that I 
know about do not tell me that one would necessarily ex­
pect this as a general principle.

Q. All right, sir. Do you think that the desire and the 
attitude of the teacher is an important consideration in the 
integration, whether to desegregate the faculties or not to 
desegregate the faculties— A. Yes.

Q. —in a given situation? A. Yes. The desires and at­
titudes of teachers are important factors in this situation.

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



169a

Q. And I gather that you would agree that that is an 
appropriate area of inquiry, as to just what the teachers 
and parents, the general acceptance that that might meet 
in the community; you would agree that that would he 
a proper area of inquiry, would you not? A. Well, with 
teachers, I would agree that that might be a proper area 
of education and public relations.

Q. That is not my question. Do you think it would be a 
proper consideration for the Superintendent to inquire 
into in the hiring of teachers for a given position, whether 
or not she is willing to teach in a given position! A. Let 
me see, I am not altogether clear about your question.

—131—
You are talking now about a new teacher, are you?

Q. Yes. Well, I ’m talking about a new teacher or an old 
teacher. Don’t you think that the desire of a teacher to 
teach in a given situation is important before an assign­
ment is made? A. Well, I would make a difference be­
tween the handling of teachers already in the service and 
the employment of new teachers. May I take a moment 
and be specific about this?

Q. Yes, sir. A. Let’s take a case of teachers who have 
been in the service for fifteen years or a number of years 
who have worked all this time in one school and who, be­
cause of this fact, have a sort of an emotional vested in­
terest in this school. Now this teacher’s desires and at­
titudes might very well be very strong indeed. This would 
be different, I think, from the case of a teacher who taught 
in the same school only one year or two years, who is 
therefore fifteen or twenty or even more years younger 
than the first teacher. His desires and attitudes are likely 
to be much less strong and deep; he is likely, by reason 
of both his youth and his short training in this school, 
to be a great deal more flexible. And still a third case is

Dr. Joseph S. Rimes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



170a

a teacher that you are just hiring who doesn’t yet have 
any job in the system, who is not attached to any school. 
I ’m not at all sure that his desires and attitudes need be 
an important matter at all.

Q. Well, wouldn’t you agree that the attitude of the
—1 3 2 -

teacher has a great deal to do with the quality of instruc­
tion in a system? A. Yes, I know. Of course I do.

Q. If a teacher is unhappy, she is not going to provide 
the quality of education for the children that she would 
if she were perfectly content with her situation; isn’t that 
correct? A. If the Superintendent is interviewing an ap­
plicant and this applicant says to the Superintendent, “I 
will be unhappy unless I can teach in a particular school,” 
this then becomes one of the qualifications of the teacher 
for the job.

Q. Well, you would certainly agree that the teacher 
should not be employed unless she was going to be happy 
in the position that she was employed to fill? A. Yes, but 
I don’t think—I don’t think—

Q. Well now, you agree with that, first?

Mr. Nabrit: Allow the witness to answer the 
question.

A. I will agree with that only in general terms.

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. All right, sir. Now— A. Generally speaking, I would 
agree that desire and attitude are important factors.

Q. Well, would you think that as far as the effect on the 
pupil is concerned that desire and attitude of the teacher 
is any more important in the case of teachers with ten 
years experience than in the case of teachers with one year

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



171a

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross

— 133-

experience? A. No, I don’t think so. But you see, the 
point I am saying to you is that the desire and attitude 
will be different in these cases.

Q. Yes, but you would agree that in all cases you must 
have a satisfied teacher in a given situation; if she is not 
content with her position, she is not going to be as effective 
as she otherwise could and should be? A. Well, I would 
say this. I would agree that in all eases we would hope 
to have a teacher who is happy because she desires and 
is contented to teach in that situation.

Q. Well, you are familiar with the reservoir or supply 
of teachers that we have in this area, are you not? A. 
Only in a very, very general way. I am not in teacher 
education; this is not my area of specialty.

Q. Are you aware of the fact that generally there is a 
shortage of teachers for public schools? A. Well, my 
impression is that the shortage insofar as it exists is more 
severe for white teachers than for Negro teachers.

Q. You do understand that there is to an extent a short­
age of teachers, that there is some difficulty in employing 
enough teachers— A. Yes.

Q. Qualified teachers. A. Yes.
— 134—

Q. —to supply the needs in practically any system in 
this area of North Carolina? A. Yes, although this short­
age is variable by race.

Q. Yes, sir. Well, do you have any basis for your under­
standing that there is not an adequate supply of Negro 
teachers? A. Well, the basis for my opinion is discus­
sions with the appointment officer of our college and at the 
A and T College, some discussions with principals. Now 
there is a shortage; I ’m not denying this. I am saying that



172a

my impression is that the shortage is not as severe in the 
case of Negro teachers as it is in the case of white teachers.

Q. All right, sir. Well, being of course connected with 
sociology and that science, you are familiar, of course, and 
realize that we will have—we would have some Negro 
teachers in this area and some white teachers in this area 
who would just not be willing to teach in a school where 
their race was in the minority; would you say that that’s 
correct? A. This is very possible, yes.

Q. All right, sir. And if that is the case, you would 
still suggest or still agree with Doctor Herman that in the 
employment of new teachers, a teacher should not be em­
ployed who was unwilling to teach in any place that she 
might be assigned? A. Yes. I would certainly agree that

—135—
this ought to be one of the conditions of employment as a 
matter of policy.

Q. Well now, Doctor Himes, assuming—or granting for 
the moment that there might be some teachers who would 
just he unwilling to teach in a school where the other race 
was predominant— A. Yes.

Q. —and that some of those teachers might not be re­
quired to accept the employment or for economic reasons 
did not have to work—• A. Yes.

Q. —do you have some suggestion of how this inade­
quacy of supply of qualified teachers might he filled? A. 
Well, no. My answer to that would be to say this: that 
a teacher who would refuse to teach in the school to which 
he was assigned because this was a school where he would 
have to work with people of the other race, was not quali­
fied.

Q. Was not qualified to teach? A. Was not qualified. 
I am saying that in my judgment, in my judgment, as we

Dr. Joseph S. Mimes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



173a

move forward a condition of qualification ought to be the 
willingness to work in interracial situations.

Q. Well, do you consider that there would be any diffi­
culty in finding enough qualified teachers who would meet 
that requirement to fill the needs of the school system! 
A. Well, of course, you are asking me to answer a question 
that is impossible to answer in the first place and that I am

—136—
not competent to answer, and the best I can give you is a 
guess. But I would guess that to make that qualification 
would not increase the difficulty of finding enough teachers 
by any very substantial amount. It would increase it some 
but by only a relatively very small amount, would be my 
judgment.

Q. Well, that “very small” group of pupils that you 
could not find a qualified teacher to employ for them, what 
would you suggest that those pupils do for an education? 
A. I don’t admit that you’ll have that situation.

Q. You don’t admit that there would be any lack of 
teachers? A. That you would reach the place any more 
under the situation I am talking about than you have now 
where you wouldn’t have teachers for the students. I don’t 
think we are talking about a real situation, sir.

Q. You are not aware of the fact that there is a real 
difficulty in finding enough teachers to employ— A. Of 
course.

Q. —qualified teachers, even under the present policy? 
A. Of course.

Q. You are not aware of that? A. I have the same 
trouble in my department. Of course. But I am saying to 
make this a condition of employment would eliminate only 
a very small proportion of people from the reservoir and 
that it will not make it—in my judgment, in my guess, it

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



174a

—137—
would not make it impossible to find enough teachers. It 
will make it more difficult but not impossible.

Now I tell you, sir, that I am not an expert on these mat­
ters and it is only a low order of judgment or a guess 
about it.

Q. All right, sir. Doctor Himes, assuming that such was 
a requirement and that a portion of your complement of 
teachers was required to teach under those circumstances, 
for economic reasons they had to work—and of course that 
is their profession; we assume they’re going to work in 
their profession—and those teachers reluctantly accept em­
ployment under those conditions, do you think that the in­
struction, the education of the pupils in the system, will 
be benefited by that situation? A. I ’m afraid I didn’t fol­
low your question, sir.

Q. If it becomes necessary to employ white teachers to 
teach in predominantly-Negro schools who do not desire 
to do so but are compelled to do so— A. Yes.

Q. —do you think that their effectiveness as teachers 
will decrease and thereby deprive the pupils of the quality 
of education that they are entitled to receive? A. This is 
possible. This is possible. But, sir, let me remind you that 
there are teachers in the Durham school system and in 
every school system who are teaching under circumstances

—138—
that they do not prefer. I will venture to say that there 
are a number of teachers in the system who would rather 
be in another school, who would rather be in another level, 
would rather be teaching another subject.

Q. I believe you admitted that you are not qualified to 
speak with reference to the teacher situation in that regard 
though, is that correct? A. I— I—

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



175a

Q. You are not familiar with the qualifications of teach­
ers in the area? A. No, I didn’t say that. I said that I 
was not competent to talk about the supply situation.

Q. The supply of teachers, qualified teachers? A. But 
I am talking about teachers in the system whom I know 
and teachers in other communities whom I know. I know 
teachers who are teaching at, say, the elementary level who 
prefer to teach at the high school level, who are teaching 
in one subject and they are better trained in another sub­
ject. Now they would rather be somewhere else than where 
they are.

Now we already have this situation and, if it follows 
that any teacher in a situation that he doesn’t prefer re­
sults in the lowering of our teaching efficiency, we already 
have it.

Q. Would you agree that it might be decreased even 
more? A. It might be decreased by this situation, yes.

—139—
Q. All right. Now, Doctor, you referred to your own 

personal experience out at North Carolina College— A. 
Yes.

Q. —your association with the students in counseling 
there and what not? A. Yes.

Q. You were apprised of the attitudes and the damage, 
the hopeless damage that had been done to some of these 
children as a result of the years of enforced segregation 
in the public school system? A. Yes.

Q. You have no experience, I take it, where pupils have 
been brought up in a free-enrollment situation such as we 
presently have here in Durham now, do you? You haven’t 
had an opportunity to talk with, to teach, or to discuss with 
pupils out there, any of whom have been raised or edu-

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



176a

cated in a system where assignment to schools was made 
on the basis of freedom of choice? A. No.

Q. All those that yon have talked to have been brought 
up in strictly segregated situations, have they not? A. 
Yes, but you see, sir, your question says something different 
to me from what I think it’s saying to you. If I have ar 
student in my college who graduated from a high school ini 
a school district where all his life they had a freedom-off

— 140- - -

choice policy but all his life he went to the Negro elementary 
school, the Negro junior high school, the Negro high school, 
he was still just as segregated as if there had been no free­
dom of choice.

Q. Well, what I am asking you— A. And he will be 
just as damaged because he went to a completely-segre­
gated school system, whether it was a free-choice segrega­
tion or a non-free-choice segregation.

Q. Well, I am asking you have you come in contact Avith 
a single student out there who Avas brought up—who had 
the opportunity to attend the school of his choice such as 
under the system that we have in Durham now? A. We 
have had in our school and I have taught students who 
graduated from Durham High School and Central High 
School and Greensboro and other schools Avhich were for­
mally Avhite schools, and they exercised freedom of choice 
and went to these schools. I taught them.

Q. Yes, sir. That would be just for one year or so, 
wouldn’t it, freedom of choice? You don’t recall a system 
anywhere in the country where a pupil has had the ad­
vantages or disadvantages of a freedom-of-choice system 
for twelve grades of public school, have you? A. No. Is 
there any system in the country where it has existed?

Q. Not that I knoAV of. A. Oh, I see.

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—141—
Q. So you have no basis of comparison? We have 

passed the stage here in Durham of segregating the sys­
tem and we now have a system where every pupil in the 
system can select the school that he desires to attend with­
out regard to race; you have no experience with that type 
situation, do you? A. No, sir. But we also have segre­
gated schools in Durham.

Q. Do we? A. We do, where every pupil and every 
pupil is all white or all Negro.

Q. Doctor Himes, isn’t that as a result of the choice of 
the pupils in that very school? A. I’m not arguing that. 
I ’m saying that is in fact segregation.

Q. Well, it is segregation by choice if it is so, isn’t it? 
A. Well, in the literal sense, yes; only in the literal sense 
though.

Q. I gather that you personally do not feel that a system 
of assignments to public schools based on freedom of 
choice is adequate? A. No. I was going to express my 
views on this and the Judge thought it was irrelevant.

Q. All right, sir. Well, let me ask you this: Do you think 
that a system of neighborhood schools is adequate? Do you 
think that zones ought to be drawn around the particular

—142—
schools and every child in that zone be required to attend 
that school regardless of his preference? A. Well, I’m not 
sure; this is a very moot question and I ’m not sure whether 
I agree with it fully. But I can say to you that this is his­
torically traditional in the United States; until ten years 
ago we had never in this country experienced freedom of 
choice, until we decided this was one way to deal with segre­
gation. Before this every child in America went to the



178a

school to which he was assigned and he had no choice ex­
cept in very unique and exceptional cases.

Q. Do you believe in the principle of neighborhood 
schools! A. I don’t know. I’m not sure about this.

Q. Well now, Mr. Herman stated that he thought that 
there were certain advantages in having the pupils attend 
schools in their neighborhood? A. Yes.

Q. That they should not be bussed across town to a 
school in an entirely different situation, entirely different 
neighborhood, and whatnot? A. No.

Q. That his experience was that the educational advan­
tages to the pupil were better if they attended school in 
their own areas and not transferred out somewhere; do you 
agree with that? A. I ’m not sure. I just said that I ’m

—143—
not sure what my views are on the neighborhood school. 
I can say this on the bussing— I can say two things on the 
bussing. If we bus some Negro children across town so 
that they can go to a school and desegregate or we bus some 
white children across town so that they can desegregate a 
Negro school, the bussing of children across town to school 
is not at all a new phenomenon in our community. I live 
directly across in front of Hillside High School and I see 
every day busloads of children come into that school and 
some of those busses pass almost in front of Durham High 
School. Now whether they pass literally in front of it or 
not, I don’t know. So bussing children is not a unique ex­
perience within cities, to say nothing of our rural com­
munities.

Now on the matter of bussing children for the specific 
purpose of desegregation of schools, it’s a very disputable 
matter; but I would argue there that the benefits to school- 
children of going to school with children of different races

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



179a

and background and so on, the benefits are great enough to 
offset some of the inconveniences, one of which may be the 
bussing.

Q. Doctor, do you have any—or are you qualified to 
speak in the area of the qualifications of teachers who are 
available for employment in this area, the quality and 
qualifications of teachers in this area; are you familiar 
with that? A. Do you mean in the reservoir?

—144—
Q. Yes, six*, in our own reservoir here. A. Only insofar 

as they are graduates of my college.
Q. You have had occasion to come in contact with teacher- 

graduates of other colleges, have you not? A. Yes, my 
college particularly.

Q. You come in contact with graduates from your own 
college— A. Yes.

Q. —in the teaching profession and graduates from other 
colleges who serve this reservoir? A. Yes.

Q. Well, in your opinion would you say that the Negro 
teachers are equally qualified with the white teachers to 
instruct the pupils in this school unit? A. Yes. Well, let 
me— In this Institute this summer in my classes, I had 45 
students in my classes and they were almost equally divided 
as to white and Negro. All of the principals, Negro and 
white principals—they put all of them, and the supervisors 
and the counselors, into one class and gave it to me. So I 
taught principals and supervisors and counselors in one 
class and I taught teachers in another class, both Negro 
and white. Now this is one limited though very concrete, 
specific experience where I had white and Negro principals 
and white and Negro teachers side by side in a single com­
petitive situation.

Dr. Joseph S. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



Now that’s one kind of experience. I know a great many
— 145—

Negro teachers in the State. 1 taught some of them at onr 
college for many years. I have met them in many other 
kinds of contacts. Now I don’t know a great many white 
teachers, public school teachers; I know some but not a 
great many. I know some in this community.

On the basis of these experiences, I would say that there 
is not a great deal of difference. There is not a great deal 
of difference.

1 This summer I would get the papers that my students 
j wrote for me. As you see, I don’t see well enough to read 
i for myself so my wife read the papers for me. I would 
! not let her tell me the names of the students. I would read 
! the paper first, make a judgment on it, mark my comments, 
yput a grade on it, and then say, “Who is it?” Unless the 
student tipped his hand by a personal comment—unless the 
student tipped his hand by a personal comment which told 
me that he was white or Negro, I couldn’t tell. It happened 
again and again and again.

Q. Well, Doctor, you are— A. I couldn’t tell. Now let 
me add some more. Then at the end of the term when the 
grades were ail compiled, it was tweedledum and twee- 
dledee. They didn’t separate on the basis of race; they 
separated on the basis of competence and race just disap­
peared.

Q. In your personal acquaintance with Negro teachers
— 146—

who live in Durham and who teach in the Durham city 
school system— A. Yes, I know many of them.

Q. —you don’t know of any who are employed by the 
Durham city system who are not qualified to teach in the 
system, do you? A. Oh, not in my judgment. But let me

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



181a

say this. I know a great many of the teachers and I know 
they run the full gamut from talented, dedicated, highly- 
skilled teachers, teachers with tremendous talent, teachers 
with great personalities and great charm—

Q. Well, based on your professional experience— A. 
—and at the other end there are some who are very poor 
teachers.

Q. But based on your professional experience, you would 
say that the same situation would be found with reference 
to the white teachers in the system, would you not? A. I 
would be inclined to say the very same thing, yes.

Q. So you are not of the opinion that the Durham City 
Board of Education has been assigning inferior teachers 
to teach the predominantly-Negro schools as compared with 
the quality of teachers who have been assigned to teach 
the predominantly-white schools, are you? A. No, not at 
all. This is why I don’t hesitate to suggest that we desegre­
gate these teachers, because the white parents and teachers 
will not lose when they get Negro teachers.

—147—
Q. And the Negro pupils would not receive any better 

instruction by being taught by a white teacher than they 
would by being taught by a Negro teacher, isn’t that cor­
rect? A. Not necessarily, no.

Q. Well, I believe you stated that you felt they would be 
equally qualified? A. Yes.

Q. Well, do you think that race alone, the race of the 
teacher, everything else being equal, is any benefit to the 
pupil? A. But, sir, if you wanted to argue with me earlier 
as you did that to put these white teachers over here in the 
Negro school will conflict with their desires and attitudes 
and they would be reluctant and unhappy and therefore 
they would do a poorer job, then you’ve got to admit—

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



182a

Q. I’m talking about now, speaking—

Mr. Nabrit: Your Honor—

Q. —speaking with reference to—

Mr. Nabrit: Your Honor, the witness was inter­
rupted.

The Court: Well, I think if the witness would 
be a little bit more responsive; he has a tendency, 
you ask him whether it’s night or day and he has a 
tendency to tell you what it was the last four years. 
If he would just be—I think he has a tendency to be

— 148—

a little bit argumentative. He’s trying to get him to 
answer a question.

Mr. Nabrit: Your Honor, I think the questions 
are argumentative and the witness is trying to—

The Court: I think they are to a degree; I agree 
that all the questions that have been asked him have 
been argumentative to a degree.

But go ahead and ask your question.
Mr. Jarvis: All right, sir.

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. You are not of the opinion that the administration 
of the Durham city school system has been assigning teach­
ers of inferior quality to the predominantly-Negro schools 
as opposed to the predominantly-white schools? A. No.

Q. Is your answer “no” ? A. No, I am not of that 
opinion.

Q. That that is the case? A. No.
Q. And everything else being equal, you would not at­

tach any significance to the race of the teacher with refer-

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



183a

ence to the quality of instruction received by the pupil? 
A. Well, if I understand what you are asking, I think my 
answer is yes. I guess—no, I—

Q. If the teacher—, If you have two teachers, one white 
and one Negro, and they are equally qualified and they have

—149—
the same background. A. Yes.

Q. Their experience is the same, they come from the 
same section of the country, say, and their vacations have 
been spent in the same countries, if you attach significance 
to that; all of those things equal. A. Yes.

Q. Is there any advantage to either a white or a Negro 
pupil by being taught by a person with a different color 
skin? A. Not in strict educational terms; that is, within 
the strict confines of arithmetic or English or history. But 
in terms of this broader culture that Mr. Herman talked 
about this morning, there may be.

Q. Where the culture is the same, race then would not 
be a factor, would it, if they are equally qualified and have 
the same background and same culture? A. All right, if 
you make them identical twins; in this sense, yes, it doesn’t 
make any difference there.

Q. All right, sir. You would agree that the Negro teach­
ers who teach in this system come from varied backgrounds 
and cultures, would you not? A. Yes.

Q. And the same would be true of the white teachers? 
A. Yes.

Q. Now if a Board of Education had a policy whereby
—150—

they employ the best qualified Negro teachers available to 
teach in a given teaching situation in a predominantly- 
Negro school and hired the best possible qualified wdiite 
teachers to teach in a similar given situation in a predomi-

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



184a

nantly-white school, and if there was an equally-qualified 
person available for both positions, I assume that you 
would agree that there would be no discrimination as to 
the white pupil or Negro pupil? A. Discrimination at what 
point?

Q. A disadvantage in his educational opportunities. A. 
Oh, no.

Q. There would not be? A. No, I don’t see that there 
would be.

Q. All right, sir. And if that situation, if it were not 
true, but you would have a vacant position in a Negro 
school and a vacant position in a predominantly-white 
school and there were two equally-qualified white teachers 
and no qualified Negro teacher for that specific situation 
and the Board assigned both of those teachers to those 
vacancies, there would certainly be no discrimination as to 
the individual pupils in that situation, would there? A. 
Now are you saying assign the white teacher in the Negro 
school this time and the Negro teacher in the white school?

Q. Yes. A. Crisscross them?
Q. No, I ’m not crisscrossing them. There is no qualified

— 151-

Negro teacher available. If you just have two qualified 
teachers and both are white and it’s the policy of the Board 
to fill those vacancies with those two qualified teachers, 
then there would be no discrimination against the pupils, 
would there? A. No.

Q. Well, Doctor Himes, are you familiar with the re­
cently-stated policy of the Board of Education with refer­
ence to the hiring and placement of teachers? A. No.

Q. You are not? A. No.
Q. You are not aware of the fact that the Board’s

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



185a

presently-stated policy is to hire the best-qualified Negro 
teachers and the best-qualified white teachers to fill the 
positions that are vacant in the system, and that they be 
assigned to those schools with the provision that exceptions 
will be made in the assignment where that is deemed 
necessary for a sound educational system.; you are not 
aware of that policy?

Mr. Nabrit: Object to the question. It’s mislead­
ing.

The Court: Well, he said he was not aware of the 
policy, period, and if he’s not aware of the policy 
he couldn’t be aware of those things he was stating.

Mr. Jarvis: All right, sir.
—152—

The Court: I think there was something in the 
file as to what the policy is. I’m not suggesting it 
wasn’t an accurate statement; I don’t know. So I 
will sustain the objection.

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. Well then, Doctor, if you are not familiar with the 
present policy of the Board in the assignment and placing 
of teachers, then you have no basis for an opinion that the 
present policy of the Board is not appropriate? A. No. 
I don’t believe I have expressed an opinion on the present 
policy of the Board.

Q. So you do not have any opinion as to whether or not 
the present policy is appropriate or not, do you? A. No, 
because I don’t know the policy.

Q. Now I believe you suggested in answnr to Mr. Nabrit’s 
question that you had some very definite views on the

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



186a

methods by which desegregation might be accomplished 
in the faculties? A. Yes.

Q. And you indicated that you agreed with Mr. Herman 
in principle that no teacher should be assigned to a situa­
tion where she was not willing to teach initially, that you 
should only assign those teachers—those white teachers 
to a predominantly-Negro school where the white teacher 
is willing to accept that position? A. Well, but I qualified 
that, if you will remember; I said that I felt this would 
be relevant in the beginning with the teachers already in

—1 5 3 -
service, and I said that—mainly those teachers who ex­
pressed a willingness to be involved in desegregation. If 

I nobody expressed a willingness to be involved in desogre'A 
1J gation, then of course some folks who are unwilling are 
1 going to have to be involved. So this is my qualification: 

that to begin and with the Teachers already in service, 
hopefully with those who express willingness to switch; 
and it may be necessary, to get what I call a reasonable 
proportion involved from the very beginning, it may be ; 
necessary to involve some people who are mildly reluctant. J 

Q. Doctor Himes, I’m having difficulty following your : 
reasoning that it is more important as far as the pupil is 
concerned that the preference of an experienced teacher be 
given more weight than the preference of a new teacher, 
when related to the pupil. I ’m not talking about the ad­
vantages or disadvantages as far as the teacher is con­
cerned. But as far as the pupil is concerned, why would 
you give more weight to the desire and attitude of an ex­
perienced teacher than you would the desire and attitude 
of a new teacher? A. Well, you are shifting words a little 
in there for the meaning of what I said, a little. I wasn’t 
talking—I was talking about the older teacher, not in terms

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



187a

of his experience, but in terms of his vested-interest com­
mitment to a given school and, therefore, for him this 
change might be more traumatic than for the younger 
teacher who has less invested in the school, who is less at-

—154—
tached to it, who feels less vested interest; that for him, he 
has greater flexibility in that he may be more willing to 
make the change. He may he easier to bring into it with 
persuasion than this older person.

Q. I take it then— A. What I am arguing is that it 
seems to me in terms of the emotional forces and the human 
forces and the resistances, that the program can be oper­
ated more easily with younger teachers with shorter serv­
ice, with less deep investments and commitments to a par­
ticular school, than with older people who have deep invest­
ments and deep commitments and emotional attachments 
to the school.

Q. But as I understand it, you would suggest that it be a 
requirement that all new7 teachers in the system not be em­
ployed unless they were willing to teach in any situation— 
A. Wherever assigned.

Q. —and that if they would not agree to that, that they 
just not be employed regardless of whether you had enough 
teachers to go around or not? A. Yes.

The Court: Doctor, what would you do if you were 
the school administrator and if it were impossible— 
if you recruited and advertised in the paper and you 
called and you interviewed and they said, “No, thank 
you, I don’t care for this employment,” and you’ve 
got 500 children out here with no teacher, do you say

—155—
it’s better for them to go without any instruction for

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



188a

a year than it is for the School Board to employ a 
qualified teacher but who wasn’t willing to take cer­
tain assignments? Which is the greater of the two 
evils ?

The Witness: Well, Your Honor, when you create 
a situation of this sort which is purely hypothetical—

The Court: Yes.
The Witness: —and perfunctory, you leave me no 

choice but as I told counsel earlier, it’s a hypothetical 
situation—

The Court: I understand that and it might not 
ever happen. But I understood you to tell him just 
now that you would not employ a teacher, even 
though you couldn’t get a full complement otherwise, 
unless they came with the commitment that they 
would teach wherever assigned; and that prompted 
me to ask the question: What would you do if you 
had these 500 children and there was no one to in­
struct them because you couldn’t get enough teachers 
to come under that commitment that they would ac­
cept an assignment anywhere?

The Witness: Well, I suppose if I were a Super­
intendent and confronted with that situation, I would 
go to my Board and say, “ This is the situation. Will

—156—
you make a specific exception to your policy in this 
instance?”

The Court: For this year?
The Witness: “For this year to get us over this 

hump.” But this is a specific.
The Court: Yes.
The Witness : But I would still think, Your Honor, 

that this won’t happen.

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes— for Plaintiffs— Cross



189a

The Court: Well, possibly it wouldn’t; I don’t 
know whether it would. But go ahead with your 
questioning.

The Witness: We are engaging in guessing, I 
think.

The Court: That’s right.
Mr. Jarvis: I have just one other question or two, 

if the Court will indulge me a moment.

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. Doctor Himes, have you had an opportunity to ex­
amine the report of the Committee of the Durham City 
Board of Education on the study of the Employment and 
Assignment of Professional Personnel? A. No. No, I 
haven’t seen that report.

Q. Have you had an opportunity to see that report? A.
No.

Q. Are you familiar with the results of the questionnaires 
that were returned by the teachers with reference to their 
own opinion of their qualifications and their willingness 
to teach in schools where the composition of pupils by race

—157—
was predominantlyy one race or another? A. No. Only I 
have heard just a few rather general comments about the 
results of this questionnaire, but I know very little about it.

Q. Would it surprise you to know that only one Negro 
teacher in the Durham City Administrative School Unit 
who returned the application stated that they were willing 
to teach in a predominantly-white class ?

Mr. Nabrit: Objection.
The Court: Well, we have had so much latitude on 

this whole thing, I’ll let him answer this one ques-

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



190a

tion. I don’t know quite the relevancy of whether he 
would or wouldn’t be surprised, but go ahead.

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. You were of the opinion, I gathered—you stated your 
opinion that we would have no difficulty in filling the com­
plement of our teaching staff, meeting our full complement, 
if the requirement was made that the teacher teach at any 
position to which she was assigned? A. No, I didn’t say 
that, sir. I said that it was my opinion that the School 
Board, the staff would probably have somewhat more dif­
ficulty if that were a condition of teaching than they now 
have. I did not say they would not have any difficulty, but 
I think only a little more difficulty.

—158—
Q. Only a little. And I gather that you did not base your 

opinion or take in consideration that only one of 288 Negro 
teachers who returned their application—returned the 
questionnaire, stated that they were willing to teach in a 
predominantly white class?

Mr. Nabrit: Objection. Before you answer—Your 
Honor, the question is predicated on—

The Court: That is not in evidence, that you
didn’t take into consideration a fact that is not in 
evidence.

Mr. Jarvis: Well, I ’m asking him what he took 
into consideration in forming his opinion.

The Court: Well, he said he took into considera­
tion no answers to any questionnaires whatever, that 
he didn’t know anything about that; and there is no 
evidence upon which your question is based. I mean 
you can ask him hundreds and hundreds of questions

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Cross



191a

whether there was any basis for it or not. He said 
he took none of it into consideration; as I understood 
the doctor to say that he didn’t even know that the 
questionnaires had been sent out and answered.

The Witness: Well, I knew that the questionnaire 
had been sent out and answered and I had heard 
some few general comments, but this only very re­
cently and my knowledge is so superficial that I ’m 
really not competent to comment on it.

—159—

Dr. Joseph 8. Ilimes—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

By Mr. Jarvis:

Q. Your opinion then -was not based on any knowledge of 
the feelings of individual members of the Negro teaching 
staff? A. My judgment was not based on the results of 
that questionnaire.

Q. Well, was it based on the result of information, any 
information as to how many Negro teachers would be will­
ing to teach at a predominantly-^white school? A. Not in 
Durham.

Q. Not in Durham? A. Not in terms of anything ap­
proximating even a very casual survey from Durham.

Mr. Jarvis: All right, I have no further questions.
The Court: All right.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Doctor Himes, you talked about a period of prepara­
tion of teachers before we get into desegregation. Would 
you put that in terms of years or months or what? A. Oh, 
you recall I said that I thought something like five years 
is fantastic and unreasonable. I should think a matter of 
months. For example, if the School Board decided this fall



192a

to initiate this program next year, next September, that
—160—

the intervening time would provide adequate time, I would 
think. It might be—it might be feasible to institute it the 
next semester, but this would be relatively short notice to 
plan the activities and to carry them out. I should think 
that six to eight months ought to be required to do it.

Q. Now you answered one of Mr. Jarvis’s questions with 
respect to what kind of policy of the School Board—if you 
thought it was discriminatory. I will ask you what is your 
view of a School Board policy which states that white teach­
ers will be hired for white schools, schools with white pu­
pils, Negro teachers will be hired for schools with Negro 
pupils, and that only in exceptional cases would there be 
any change of that policy?

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
The Court: Now aren’t you guilty of the same vice 

that you got up a few moments ago and said I should 
prevent him from engaging in, exactly? That fact is 
not in evidence, is it?

Mr. Nabrit: I asked it as a hypothetical question.
The Court: Well, you objected a moment ago to 

his asking a hypothetical question based on “did you 
know that so-and-so” or “if so-and-so.” I sustained 
that objection. If you are basing a hypothetical ques­
tion on something that’s in evidence, why I think it’s 
pei’fectly all right; but there is no evidence upon

—161—
which to base the hypothesis even.

Mr. Nabrit: I withdraw the question and will at­
tempt to rephrase it.

The Court: All right, sir.

Dr. Joseph 8. Himes—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



193a

Dr, Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs■—Direct 

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What is your view with respect to whether or not a 
policy of assigning faculty by race is good or bad?

Mr. Jarvis: May I ask that that question be read 
back?

Mr. Nabrit: I asked for his view of the policy of 
assigning faculty by race, putting them in schools on 
the basis of race.

Mr. Jarvis: Well, I object. That’s too generalized. 
The Court: Well, I don’t know the relevancy of his 

opinion, but he may answer it.

A. Well, I think it’s clearly a policy of segregation, and in 
my judgment it’s bad.

# # # # #
—162—

Doctor Joseph P. McK elpin was called as a witness on 
behalf of the Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was 
examined and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. State your name, please. A. Joseph P. McKelpin.
Q. What is your profession? A. I ’m a Professor of Ed­

ucation.
Q. State your educational background in a brief resume, 

please.
The Court: Excuse me. Professor of Education 

where, Doctor ?
The Witness: North Carolina College.
The Court: All right.



194a

A. I received a Bachelor of Arts Degree at Southern Uni­
versity at Baton Rouge, Louisiana; Master of Science in 
Guidance and Education at the University of Wisconsin; 
Doctor of Philosophy in Education Administration at the 
University of Wisconsin.

The Court: You received your Ph.D. Degree from 
where, Doctor?

The Witness: The University of Wisconsin.
The Court: The University of Wisconsin. All 

right.
—163—

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What has your work experience been relating to edu­
cation? A. Public school teacher, junior high school in 
New Orleans, Louisiana. While I worked for the doctorate 
degree, I was Research Assistant in the Department of 
Education at the University of Wisconsin. I taught at 
Tuskegee University during the summer, A  and T College; 
Southern University, where I spent ten years and held a 
variety of jobs including regular classroom teacher, Direc­
tor of Student Teaching, which included Professor of 
Laboratory Experiences and was Director of the Labora­
tory School. And then at North Carolina College I serve 
as Director of the Bureau of Education and Research.

# # # * #
—164—

* * # # #
By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What do you do in your current job? A. Well in my
—1 6 5 -

current job, in addition to teaching courses and adminis-

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Direct



195a

tration, researching and statistics in the Bureau of Educa­
tion and Research, I am responsible for advising students 
about research plans, other colleagues in the college, and 
to define problems and develop plans for approaching solu­
tions to those problems, principally.

Q. Doctor McKelpin, do you have an opinion with respect 
to the effect of the policy of assigning teachers on the basis 
of race on a school program, and would you tell us what 
effect you think it has! A. Yes. But to do that, I wish 
you would let me lay just a little background. I think we 
need to recognize that there have been changes in societies 
and cultures from time immemorial. This is just part of 
the evolutionary process.

But now we find ourselves in a time where this change 
has to be deliberately designed in order to do two things: 
to promote the national welfare and to enhance the national 
image. I could talk about this some more, but we need to 
recognize that this is so.

Now when you look at another part, the role of education 
has, as someone has said, traditionally been passed under 
culture; but now at a time when society and culture is 
changing, the role of education cannot simply be passed 
under culture. You have to recognize what the new things 
coming are and to make education a facilitator of the new 
things that are coming in.

—1 6 6 -
In this connection we need to recognize more and more 

that in the international community one of the things that 
gives us most difficulty is the lack of people who can live in 
peace and mutual respect with others who are different in 
color and orientation. This is coming to be more and more. 
The schools must now have the role of producing people 
who more and more can do these things.

Dr. Joseph P. Mc-Kelpin—for Plaintiffs—Direct



196a

Another element here that is related to the national wel­
fare is to be sure that we have enough talent to do the job 
that needs to be done. Eight now many jobs that need to 
be done are not being done because the talent isn’t devel­
oped, and part of this is because we are not using people in 
disadvantaged groups who have talent and developing their 
talents so this can be available for the national welfare.

One other thing, and that is the whole education goes on 
—if you will allow me just to reduce it to something like 
this: The individual, as a result of all of his encounters 
and the things that he meets, people and other things, 
develops an image of the world, the world that he knows, 
and this image includes himself. Now if this is true and if 
this results from the encounters that he has, it is clear 
that who teaches him is one of the determinants of the 
image that he has, not only of the world, but of himself. 
And as other speakers have indicated—and here we get

—167—
into the effect—as other speakers have indicated, this busi­
ness of assigning teachers on the basis of color or ethnic 
groups systematically so that teachers teach only those 
who are like them in color does a disservice to both Negro 
and white children, because they develop images of them­
selves and of the world that are destroyed and that make 
it impossible for them to live in peace and mutual respect 
with people of a different color, both domestically and 
internationally.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What is your view of the importance of the relation­
ship between the teacher and the pupil in the educational 
process! A. Well, I think this has been said too. Coming 
after many others speakers, I suppose many of the things

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Direct



197a

which I would want to say, I have heard already. But, of 
course, this is the most critical relationship in formal edu­
cation because, as has been said, not only is the teacher 
the carrier of the culture but the teacher helps the child 
through interacting with the child to build a concept of 
himself.

For a child to have experience not with just teachers 
from one color group, but cutting across whatever group 
there might be in the community, gives the child a better 
chance to develop a concept of himself and again of the 
world that is more realistic, that is more valid, and is 
likely to be verified as he moves on into the future.

Q. Well, take the case of the Negro child in the all-Negro
- 1 6 8 -

school with an all-Negro faculty. A. Well, as Doctor 
Himes has indicated, there is a tendency to believe under 
these circumstances that there is an element of inferiority 
involved.

Q. A tendency of who to believe that? A. Well, there 
is a tendency for those involved both in the school—and I 
speak of Negro teachers and Negro students-—but there is 
also a tendency for those who are not there, that is, white 
teachers and students who are excluded from this situa­
tion, to feel that it’s inferior. Now as he has also indicated, 
this is not necessarily so, but the belief that it is turns 
out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy which results in their 
having less motivation—and incidentally, there is much 
research to prove that this turns out to be pretty much 
the case—feeling that their separation from the majority 
of the community is a derogation of their social standing, 
their social value, and their simple human dignity, and 
this tends to give them less of an incentive. This tends to 
give them the impression—which is actually true in too

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin— for Plaintiffs—Direct



198a

many cases—that their opportunities for participation on 
a wide range, these opportunities are limited.

So I am saying the fact of segregation tends to mirror 
back to these people a sense of being placed at a lower level 
in the social scale of thinking.

Q. What about the Negro child who is attending a
—169—

predominantly-white school with an all-white faculty, how 
does the assignment policy affect him? A. Well, I think 
so far as his peers are concerned the child develops to this 
extent a more valid impression of himself and of the world. 
But to the extent that there are not Negro teachers on 
this faculty who would be models of authority and models 
with which he could identify, to this extent, while this is 
better than the previous situation you mentioned, it is less 
good than it ought to be by virtue of the lack of Negro 
teachers on the faculty.

* Q. Again you have mentioned study on this subject. Are 
there any sources that you would care to refer to? A. Yes, 
there are several. And actually I can’t remember all that 
I have gone through, but some which come to me immedi­
ately here, two or three are included in A. H. Pastile’s 
“Education in Depressed Urban Areas,” published in 1963 
by Southern University Press. One in particular is written 
by David and Pearl Ausabel and it’s called “Ego Develop­
ment in Segregated Negro Children.” Another study which 
may interest you is—well, a whole bunch of studies that 
are summarized—not summarized—described, included in 
the issue of “ The Journal of Social Issues” for April of 
1964, edited by Thomas Pettigrew, whom Doctor Himes 
has mentioned.

Another study—and this is quite appropriate for what 
we are considering here—done by Naomi and Arnold Buck-

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin■— for Plaintiffs-—Direct



199a

—170—
heimer is called “ Equality Through Integration” and is 
the report of experiences and efforts made from the late 
’30s up into the early ’60s in Greenberg District Number 8, 
Westchester County, and New York City, and tells the 
story of how in the course of these years they hit upon a 
plan called the “Princeton Plan” which seems to work very 
well both for teachers and students.

One other study you might be interested in in this con­
nection put out in the early part of this year by the Bank 
Street College of Education, and it’s the report of a semi­
nar of experts called “Education for the Segregated and 
Deprived.”

By Mr. Nabrit :

Q. Do you believe the views you have expressed with 
respect to the effects of segregation represent a minority 
view, a general view, or what? A. I think that anyone 
who cares to check the theory and research dealing with 
education and segregation will find that this is a majority 
view of those who have studied the situation in terms of 
how it operates and its effect on both teachers and students.

Q. Can you talk about the effect of this on a child’s 
learning process? A. Yes, I can.

Q. The faculty segregation on the child’s learning proc-
—171—

ess, I ’m talking about. A. Yes. I want to go back first 
and mention again—I mentioned this self-image, self-con­
cept, self-esteem, ego development that is achieved, then 
I ’ll go on to what you have asked me.

This self-image moderates, you might say, and controls 
to some extent the achievement motivation, the aspiration 
of a child, the willingness to define a goal and to work

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Direct



200a

towards it. So it depends on how he sees himself and this 
is determined to some extent by whether or not a child 
sees in his school not only people of one group but of both 
groups, so that he feels that these are goals which he could 
aspire to.

Now if this is true, then a school in which you have 
teachers of only one color would tend to have different and 
opposite effects on white and Negro children. White chil­
dren, as for instance the group for the advancement of 
psychiatry indicates, would feel better about themselves 
than they had any objective reason to feel, and Negroes 
would feel more negative and contemptuous of himself than 
they should. Whereas if you had a faculty consisting of 
both Negroes and whites, there would be more reality of 
the situation and so their conceptions of themselves and 
their efforts towards goals and aspirations would be more 
realistic.

Q. Would you say something with respect to the issue of 
the effect of faculty segregation on people’s preference for

- 1 7 2 -
schools, their choice of schools? A. Yes. It seems to me 
that—It is true, I suppose, “birds of a feather flock to­
gether.” We need to recognize that. This is something we 
have learned. This is a cultural teaching from the past. 
By way of pointing out what I meant by “the thing that is 
now emerging,” we are being forced to teach that while 
birds of a feather may still flock together, the “feathers” 
may not be determined by the color of the skin but instead 
by other ways of behaving which people learn, rather than 
things with which they are born about which they can do 
nothing.

But in conformity with what we have learned in the past, 
the Board of Education may say, “ You are free to choose 
any school you want,” but if school “A” over here remains

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Direct



201a

predominantly taught by members of one color group and 
school “B” by members of a second-colored group—as Doc­
tor Himes pointed out, what people are really living says a 
great deal more to them than the things you give them to 
study or what you tell them—and so while you may osten­
sibly have freedom of choice, actually you have reduced the 
arena in which this freedom exists by failure to show that 
you really mean what you say by doing something about it.

So if your teachers remain segregated, this tends to re- / 
inforce segregation so far as students are concerned even/ 
though you say you have freedom of choice.

—173—
Mr. Nabrit: No further questions.

Cross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. Doctor, did I understand you to say that a Negro child 
being taught solely by a Negro teacher gave him an inferi­
ority complex? A. No, you didn’t hear me say that, but 
you did hear me say—

Q. Well, I’m just asking you did you say that. A. I did 
not say that but I will clarify what I said.

Q. Well, you said something about being— A. Would 
you permit me to clarify it so I can put it in context, sir?

Q. Let me ask you this: Didn’t you say that if he was 
taught by a Negro teacher, he would feel inferior? Did you 
say that? A. May I put it in context?

Q. I just asked you if you didn’t say that a while ago. 
A. May I put in context what I said?

Q. Just answer the question “yes” or “no” and then ex­
plain it. A. I didn’t say that.

Q. You did not; all right. What did you say then? A. 
Yes, sir. What I did say is that the existence of this pattern 
of Negro teaching Negroes only and whites teaching whites

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



202a

only conveys to both Negroes and to whites that the minor-
— 174—

ity group has been relegated to a second-class citizenship, 
that he has been placed at a lower level in the social scale; 
and this is borne out by innumerable pieces of research.

Q. Well, you now say to His Honor that you want every 
teacher in every Negro school in Durham to be a white 
teacher? Are you saying that? A. Would you repeat that, 
sir?

Q. Did I understand you to say now that you want every 
Negro teacher in Durham discharged and a white teacher 
employed to teach in all the Negro schools? A. This is not 
what I am saying. What I am saying is that—

Q. Well, I ask you this: Do you want all the Negro pupils 
to be taught by white teachers? A. No, I do not.

Q. Do you want all the white pupils in the City of Dur­
ham to be taught by Negro teachers? A. No, I do not.

Q. Then do you want them to be taught by white teachers 
as well as Negro teachers? A. I want all of the students to 
be assigned teachers without regard to color.

Q. And on the basis of their qualifications? A. Of 
course.

Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir.
— 175—

Q. In other words, you want first a good teacher, don’t 
you— A. Eight.

Q. —who has the qualifications to teach in a given situa­
tion? A. He should be qualified; right.

Q. Qualified. And if he is not qualified, he should not be 
employed? A. And his color should have nothing to do 
with his qualifications.

Q. And his color should have nothing to do with it? A. 
Eight.

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



203a

Q. Now you spoke about culture. You spend about six 
to eight hours a day in school don’t you? A. About six.

Q. Well now, then there is culture elsewhere in the com­
munity other than in the school, isn’t there? A. This is 
true.

Q. You get some culture at home, don’t you? A. Yes. 
I ’m wondering now how you use the term “ culture,” though.

Q. Well, you used the term “ culture” ; you talked about 
it in school. I ask you this: If you get culture at school, 
don’t you get it at home? A. Well, what I ’m trying to 
say is that—

—176—
Q. Well, I just asked you: Don’t you get culture at home ?

Mr. Nabrit: I object. He’s not allowing the wit­
ness to answer the question.

The Court: Well, he’s not answering the question. 
He can answer any question “yes” or “no” if he can, 
and then he can explain his answer.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, the witness tried to do that.
The Court: But he wouldn’t answer. He asked 

him a specific question that could be answered “yes” 
or “no.” He is entitled to explain any answer he 
wants. If he can’t answer it yes or not, he can say, 
“ I can’t answer that question yes or no.”

A. I can’t answer that question yes or no.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. Well, do you get culture at church? Do you get some 
culture when you go to church or Sunday school? Do you 
get it on the playground? A. Well, it’s operating, let me 
say—

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



204a

Q. I just want to know this: Do you mean to say the only 
place you get culture, that a child gets it, is in a schoolroom?
Can you answer that? A. Yes. Let me answer that like 
this, please. The school is recognized by a large majority 
of people as being the one institution which can have some­
thing like a uniform effect across various lines that split up 
the community into segments. Now it is true that culture 
is operating—cultures are operating—subcultures, if you

- 1 7 7 -
wish—are operating on these pupils all the time, wherever 
they come into contact with their peers, but especially where 
they come into contact with adults who are significant to 
them and who are carriers of a culture they will have re­
flected to them, mediated to them, some aspects—the pupils 
will—some aspects of culture. That is, again all we are? 
talking about here are the characteristic ways of thinking,j ?
feeling, and acting which have been developed in the past,1 /  
brought on into the present, modified and move on into thb 
future.

Q. A  child, if he doesn’t go to kindergarten, he stays 
home with his family six years, isn’t that right; six years 
that he’s home with his parents and his brothers and his 
sisters and the community? A. That is true.

Q. Well, does he develop any culture there the first six 
years of his life; doesn’t he get culture there? A. Yes.
He learns the ways of thinking, feeling, and acting which 
his parents carry.

Q. Which his parents and the people he associates with, 
his friends? A. Eight.

Q. And then he goes to school for six hours a day for 
180 days. Now then, the difference in 180 days and 365 is 
about 185 more days. Where does he get his culture there?

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—-Cross



205a

Did he get any more culture after he left school? A. He
—178—

is becoming aculturated all the time in all places.
Q. Well, what do you want him to do during this 185 

days; do you want him to stay in his community and play 
there or what do you want him to do ?

Mr. Nabrit: Object to the form of the question.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. Well, to get culture—

The Court: Well, what he wants, just what does 
he suggest, if he has an opinion.

Q. Well, what should he do for the balance if you want 
him to get culture 365 days a year; what should he do the 
remaining time?

Mr. Nabrit : Objection. I don’t know what should 
who do about what.

Mr. Spears: Well, I ’m just trying to say this: 
He is arguing that a child gets culture by going to 
school if he has a white teacher—

The Court: Objection overruled. Go ahead and 
ask the question.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. Now then, what— A. Now let me make this clear. 
I think I see the point of contention here. Of course, all 
the time that people live and interact with other people— 
that is, younger people especially—they are being acul­
turated. Now this means, of course, that the home, the 
community, the school, all aspects of these various situa-

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



206a

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—179—
tions of interaction are sites at which culture is being 
mediated to the child.

We simply say that the school has a special function to 
present the culture at its very best which may not and 
cannot, so far as we know, be done anywhere else for as 
wide a segment of the population in a community.

Q. Well, likewise he gets it in Sunday school, doesn’t he? 
A. Yes.

Q. His teaching? A. Yes.
Q. And his minister at the services and attending the 

various activities in his community? A. True.
Q. Now you said that pupils should be permitted to be 

subjected to that, that he should be permitted to have that 
opportunity to have a segregated faculty; is that right? 
You said that a pupil should be permitted to have the op­
portunity to attend a school with a segregated faculty? A. 
I didn’t say that.

Q. You didn’t? A desegregated faculty, I mean. A. Oh, 
desegregated, yes.

Q. Desegregated. A. Yes.
Q. Well now, then shouldn’t he also have the opportunity, 

if he desires, to go to a school where he has freedom of
- I S O -

choice that doesn’t have an integrated faculty? A. That 
depends, and let me explain it. I think we have to recog­
nize that there are values related to the welfare and destiny 
of, let us say, the nation as a whole as well as the com­
munity as a whole, that may be more important than the 
desires, wishes, of a particular individual.

Q. Well then, who is going to tell him that he must go 
to that school if his father and mother, parents—he’s sub­
ject to their control and their discipline and they say,



207a

“ You go to this school,” then are you going to say that he 
should not mind his parents? A. No, sir. I think you have 
a constituted group in the community vested with the re­
sponsibility for making such decisions. This is your Board 
of Education.

Q. Well, I ask you, though, if you have freedom of 
choice—which the boy has—should the parent then have 
the right to say and decide himself where he wants his 
child to go to school? Are you going to deny him of that 
right, the parent? A. No.

Q. All right. I f he has that right then that’s his choice, 
isn’t it? A. Oh, it’s his choice.

Q. Yes. A. I have pointed out, however, that it is a 
choice pretty much in name only. It’s fairly well predeter- .

—181— :
mined by social forces and psychological forces that are j 
impinging on both the child and his parents.

Q. And that would be for both white and Negro race, 
wouldn’t it? A. Yes, this is true.

Q. Now I ’m a Trustee out at North Carolina College. I 
want to ask you this question: Do you mean to say that 
because you are down there teaching that the Negro pupil 
down at your college feels like he is not getting a good ed­
ucation because you are teaching him?

Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, objection to that 
question.

The Court: Overruled. If he feels that way.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, the question doesn’t 

really put the testimony of the witness in the proper 
context.

The Court: Well, this is cross examination. He 
may explain.

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



208a

A. Mr. Spears, am I speaking to you as Trustee of my 
Board or as attorney for the Board of Education?

The Court: You can forget about he’s Trustee of 
your Board. You are testifying in Court. You go 
ahead.

The Witness: Your Honor, he just reminded me.

A. No, I do not feel, Mr. Spears, that students coming
—182—

under my instruction are receiving inferior instruction. 
But I suspect that in the Durham community as a whole 
many white people feel that this is a school reserved for 
the second-class citizen and I suspect that these feelings get 
reflected back to students who come to me, and I suspect 
that they react to that by building within themselves some­
thing of a negative image with low self-esteem.

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross

By Mr. Spears:

Q. It may not be material, but you do have a good col­
lege, don’t you? A. We have a very good college.

Mr. Spears: That’s all.
The Court: Doctor, let me ask you this. I heard 

you say something a while ago but I didn’t quite 
understand you. Do you think that a young child 
—that a Negro child going to a predominantly-Negro 
school and being taught by a predominantly-Negro 
faculty develops any greater feeling of inferiority 
than a white child going to a predominantly-white 
school and taught by a predominantly-white faculty; 
and if so, where is the difference and the distine-



209a

tionf I thought you touched on that a few moments 
ago in your testimony.

The Witness: Yes, Your Honor, I did. And I can 
speak of studies and I ’m particularly thinking of 
the Ausabel study, which indicates that segregated 
Negro children do develop unwarrantedly-low esti-

—1 8 3 -
mates of themselves; and it’s an implication of the 
statement of the Group for the Advancement of 
Psychiatry, on the other hand, that segregated white 
children develop unwarrantedly-high estimates of 
themselves. Now what I have said is that both of 
these kinds of distorted self-images fail to serve 
these people well when they get in situations which 
require them to live in peace and mutual respect 
with those of a different color.

The Court: Well, what do the psychiatrists and 
sociologists say causes that, that would cause one 
segregated group to develop a feeling of inferiority 
while another equally segregated group develops a 
feeling of superiority?

The Witness: Well, yes. In one case you have a 
group—Let me back up here a minute and call your 
attention again to the capacity and the tendency, the 
actual fact that the individual mind in interaction 
with various aspects of its environment builds an 
image of the world, including the self of the person 
having the mind. Now if you keep in mind that this 
image reflects the effects of these encounters—now 
if the encounters are always of the nature to say to 
a person, “You occupy a low level in this social ar­
rangement; you cannot aspire for certain goals”— 
now if it said that to him. in a number of ways and

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin— for Plaintiffs—Cross



210a

consistently, then he is going to develop this image
— 184—

of himself which is reflected back from what he 
undergoes.

Likewise, if a person operates in a situation where 
he can do no wrong and if he does, he can blame it 
on the other guy over there who always does wrong, 
he gets an unusually rosy picture of himself. And so 
it’s the same process working, but at different levels 
with different opportunities and methods of acquir­
ing status in the social group. It’s culturally defined.

The Court: Well, let me just ask you this. I fol­
low what you say there. Do you think that is still 
valid if you take groups in the same economic status 
and coming from environments of the same economic 
status generally—you know, the same general income 
group with parents with perhaps little or no educa­
tion, without regard to this race question at all—that 
child, the white child, doesn’t he develop that same 
feeling that the neighborhood from which I come, 
the opportunities that I have, the most I could ever 
aspire to is a job in that mill or some manual job 
out here, and he drops out of school because he 
doesn’t have the motivation! Isn’t about the same 
situation created as with the Negro child coming 
from that same type of environment, that there is 
really no motivation at home! When you put the 
two side by side, do you think there is that distinc-

— 185—

tion or is the distinction you made a few moments 
ago still as valid as it was, under these circum­
stances!

Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin—for Plaintiffs—Cross



211a

The Witness: Yes, Your Honor, I think so, for 
this reason. Admitted that you could hold socio­
economic status—this is what they say—but even 
though I have as much of the world’s goods as any­
body else, if I am restricted in my participation in 
various cultures, situations, this tells me something 
about myself and what I can expect; and so I begin 
to build my life in terms of the image I have of my­
self and what I can expect to become.

Now this isn’t all that’s involved. I ’m not saying 
this is all of it, but this still operates—

The Court: We are all restricted somewhat. I 
have never had an invitation to some of the halls in 
Washington or in New York and I never aspire to it 
because I am not in that economic group to ever have 
an invitation. We are restricted in that sense, all of 
us, aren’t we?

The Witness: I think this is true.
The Court: But that’s not in context. I realize 

what you are talking about. Thank you, Doctor.
# #  *  #  #

— 192—

# * * # #
H oward M. F itts, Jr. was called as a witness on behalf 

of the Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was ex­
amined and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Fitts, state your name and address. A. Howard 
M. Fitts, Jr., 2529 Weaver Street, Durham.

Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a teacher at 
North Carolina College.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct



212a

Q. What, do you teach? A. Health education and hy­
giene courses.

The Court: I ’m sorry, I can’t hear. If you would 
speak as though you were speaking to the corner 
of the room back there and you wanted somebody 
back there to hear you, then I could hear you and 
your attorneys here and everybody could. I couldn’t 
here what you were saying.

—193—
What do you teach?
The Witness: I teach health education.
The Court: All right.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Fitts, how long have you been in Durham, North 
Carolina? A. This is my eleventh year.

Q. Do you have children? A. I have one child.
Q. Does he attend Durham public schools? A. He does.
Q. What school? A. Moreliead Elementary School.
Q. What grade is he in? A. Fifth grade.

Mr. Spears: I didn’t understand what school you 
said.

The Witness : Morehead Elementary.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. And for the record, sir, you are a Negro, is that 
right? A. I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.

Q. For the written record, you are a Negro, is that cor­
rect? A. Yes.

Q. Now does your child attend a predominantly-white

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct



213a

school or a Negro school or what? A. Predominantly
- 1 9 4 -

white.
Q. Now are you a member of any civic association that 

worked on the public school desegregation in Durham? 
A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. What is that? A. I am a member of the NAACP 
and the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs.

Q. With reference to the Durham Committee on Negro 
Affairs, what affairs have you participated in, what posi­
tion do you hold, and so forth? A. I am Co-Chairman of 
the Subcommittee on Education.

Q. Would you describe to the Judge the activities of 
that Subcommittee on Education of the Durham Committee 
on Negro Affairs, and tell him what you do?

Mr. Spears: Objection, Your Honor. Objection. 
The Court: I didn’t understand the question. Will 

you describe what?
Mr. Nabrit: The activities of this committee. 

What I am doing, my purpose, Your Honor, is to 
lay the basis for his observation that he will testify 
to.

The Court: Objection overruled.

A. The primary purpose of the committee is to improve 
educational opportunities for Negroes and youth in gen­
eral in Durham. These are the primary objectives, and 
we have engaged in various kinds of meetings and activi-

—1 9 5 -
ties and activities in general to carry out these aims.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct



214a

Q. Describe the program of the committee for the Judge. 
A. Well, with reference to school desegregation, we feel 
that this is one activity that will improve educational op­
portunities for youth. We have encouraged the idea of 
Negro children taking advantage of opportunities to enter 
desegregated schools. We have had speakers at churches. 
We have had speakers at public meetings. We have visited 
homes in various neighborhoods. We have answered in­
quiries from parents and done that type of thing.

Q. Now concerning you personally, do you get inquiries 
from parents or how do they come, calls to your home, 
or what! A. We get both inquiries and contacts from 
meetings that we attend, from places where we make an­
nouncements, and so on—and home visits, yes.

Q. Now does your committee have other activities that 
bring your attention to parents that are not directly re­
lated to desegregation, other educational activities? A. 
We have communitywide programs from time to time, at 
which time the public in general is invited to attend, and 
these would be parents who are not actual members of our 
organization.

Q. What I meant was do you have any programs with 
respect to school dropouts and things like that? A. We

—1 9 6 -
have. We have conducted tutorial programs to help chil­
dren who are having difficulty with studies or who need 
guidance with their studies and so on.

Q. And what about a program with relation to school 
dropouts? A. In terms of school dropouts, we have as­
sociated with other grounds to help children of this type 
to take advantage of the offerings of the various agencies

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:



215a

here in the city that do have direct programs for drop­
outs. We have no direct program ourselves but we do 
try to enable children and make parents aware of pro­
grams that are available for them.

Q. Now returning to your program with respect to 
encouraging desegregation, have you been operating dur­
ing the period where a freedom-of-choice program has 
been in effect in this city? A. Yes, I have.

Q. Roughly what period of time has this committee been 
working on that, to your knowledge, your participation? 
A. Well, my participation began in the summer of 1962. 
Where my participation began, whatever activities that 
have gone on in this have occurred. You asked the time.

Q. Now in connection with this program, have you come 
to know the feelings and fears of Negro parents, their 
attitudes with respect to sending their children to schools 
with all-white faculties?

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.

Q. In the City of Durham?
—197-

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
The Court: The fears of doing what?
Mr. Nabrit: The feelings, the parents’ feelings 

and attitudes with respect to sending their children 
to schools with all-white faculties in Durham.

Mi’. Spears: Your Honor, we object. It can’t be 
anything but hearsay evidence.

The Court: How is that competent, Mr. Nabrit?
Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I think this 

is about the best type of evidence you can get of 
the attitudes expressed by people—that is, the



216a

verbal acts—bow they expressed themselves in com­
munity activities about this kind of problem.

The Court: Well, isn’t that hearsay!
Mr. Nabrit: I think not, Your Honor. I think it 

is an exception to it.
The Court: What exception !
Mr. Nabrit: Because what he would report would 

be verbal acts. He would be reporting what people 
say about the situation. Now the extent to which 
people mean what they say is another problem, but 
at least he would be reporting what they say.

The Court: What do you mean—I don’t under­
stand “verbal acts.” Something that’s verbal, isn’t 
that a statement! How do you perform a verbal 
act!

—198—
Mr Nabrit: Well, I think, Your Honor, that what 

I am trying to suggest is that this is comparable 
to a statement such as in a contract situation, “I 
accept,” or, “I offer to sell.” It’s similar to the 
res gestae concept.

The Court: Well, of course, an offer to sell, if 
the statement of the person making the offer, if he 
is a party to the action, of course, it would be 
competent; if not, it would be pure hearsay.

I doubt if it’s competent. I ’m going to let it 
in and I ’ll hear from you later. The witness is on 
the stand. As to whether it can be considered, I have 
grave reservations about it, its competency, as to 
what people have said to him as he has gone about 
over the city.

Go ahead.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—-Direct



217a

Q. Would you describe briefly what you encountered! 
A. I guess I have to start with my own family, with my­
self. There are fears when one considers placing a child 
in what is considered a white school—and this is how they 
are referred to, as “white” schools. Parents with smaller 
children have fears that the teachers may show some prej­
udices, that they may not give the child the feeling of 
being wanted, that they may make the child feel that he

—199—
isn’t really a part of the class, that he may not have an 
opportunity to participate in all school activities. These 
are some feelings that do exist when one considers en­
tering a child into what are called “white” schools.

For parents of older children these same feelings exist; 
however, there are somewhat different feelings also. 
Parents of older children and the children themselves have 
fears that they may be called names, that there may be 
conflict arising between children and that the teachers 
and administrators may not intercede or may show par­
tialities. These are some of the feelings. There are feel­
ings of parents of older children, particularly high school 
children, that their children will not have opportunities 
to experience leadership roles, that they will have oppor­
tunities for scholarship, say, that they would get in the 
all-Negro schools, and that they may have more difficulty 
succeeding scholastically.

I think these are generally the kinds of feelings that do 
exist when parents consider the possibility of seeking- 
admittance of their child to the integrated school.

Mr. Jarvis: Motion to strike, Your Honor.
The Court: Motion overruled.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:



218a

Q. Now, Mr. Fitts, I don’t think it’s quite clear what 
parts of this are in your own situation, in your own family, 
and what parts are related to your contacts with what 
some people told you around the community. Would you

— 200—

tell about your own experience when your child first applied 
to a white school, your own family? A. Well, my child 
has been in an integrated school for two years. This is 
the third year. It was my decision to seek transfer, feel­
ing that he would have opportunities for a better educa­
tional experience. I had some qualms about it, of course. 
I had considerable difficulty getting my wife to accept this 
view. She felt that the opportunities were better, but she 
felt also that there might be problems that she would not 
want this child to be confronted with. In fact, my wife 
hardly slept the first night before he was to enter the 
school.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:

Mr. Jarvis: Motion to strike, Your Honor.
The Court: I didn’t hear the last. I can’t hear 

what the witness is saying.
Mr. Spears: I can’t understand him either, Your 

Honor.
The Court: He talks so I can’t hear him. I have 

asked him if he will look back over there and raise 
his voice a little bit. I don’t know what his last 
answer was.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Would you repeat the last part of that to the Judge?
A. The last part of my answer had to do with my own



219a

experience. I said that I had made the decision some two 
years ago to seek admittance to an integrated school for

— 201—

my son and that it was a decision of my own. I had some 
qualms about making the decision, but I decided that this 
would be a better opportunity for the child. I attempted 
to convince my wife of this and she felt too that the educa­
tional experience could be—

Mr. Jarvis: That’s my objection, Your Honor. 
I object to anything that his wife might have felt. 
He can speak from his own experience.

The Court: Well, my feeling is that it’s objec­
tionable, but I ’m going to let him put it in the 
record. I will reserve for you that it should not be 
considered as to what his wife said.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Go ahead. A. Well, she felt too that the educational 
experience could be better in that school; however, she 
felt the problems which he might be faced with were prob­
lems that she was not sure that she would want him to 
undergo. Nevertheless, I persuaded her to agree with me 
in this. And my last statement was that she hardly slept 
the night before he was to enter the school.

Q. Was there any specific problem that bothered you 
relating to an all-white faculty in that school your son 
was applying to? A. As I stated earlier, I was uncertain 
as to the kind of treatment that the child would receive.

— 202—

I was concerned as to whether he would be treated with 
warmth, whether he would be shown the kind of love that

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiff's—Direct



220a

I felt teachers should show children, and whether he 
would be given the encouragement and the aid that I felt 
teachers should give him, and whether he would be given 
opportunities to experience full school-life participation,

Mr. Nabrit: Your witness.

Cross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. When did you exercise the right of freedom of choice 
for your son to go to Morehead, what year! A. Two 
years ago; that would have been 1963.

Q. At what grade— A. At the third-grade level.
Q. Third-grade level; that was ’63-’64! A. That’s right. 
Q. And did he attend the third-grade level! A. Yes.
Q. He was promoted? A. He was promoted.
Q. And did he attend the Morehead School in ’64-’65? 

A. He did.
Q. In what grade? A. Fourth grade.
Q. Fourth grade. Did he complete that grade? A. He

—203—
was promoted.

Q. He was promoted to the fifth grade? A. Yes, sir. 
He was promoted, sir.

Q. And he is now attending Morehead School this year? 
A. Yes.

Q. In the fifth grade? A. In the fifth grade.
Q. What school was your child attending in the first 

grade? A. He was attending Spaulding School.
Q. That’s Spaulding Elementary School? A. Elemen­

tary School.
Q. And so at the end of that first grade, the first year, 

then you made application— A. No. The school zone 
changed and he was assigned to Fayetteville Street School.

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Cross



221a

Q. But in other words, he was in Spaulding School one 
year? A. That’s right.

Q. And then the next year he was assigned to Fayette­
ville? A. That’s right.

Q. That’s when you requested reassignment? A. That’s 
right.

Q. And it was granted? A. It was.
Q. And your child has been automatically initially as­

signed each year to Morehead since that time? A. Up
—204—

until this year when the freedom of choice went into effect.
Q. Well, this year then you were given a choice? A. 

That’s right.
Q. And you have exercised the choice to return him to 

Morehead School because you were satisfied with the 
progress your child was making there? A. That’s right.

The Court: Professor, have you found that your 
fears and apprehensions were unfounded to begin 
with?

The Witness: With my child there has been only 
one experience which I can say was an unpleasant 
experience. It was not an activity of the school, 
but an outside agency which operated in the schools ; 
and I was very unhappy with this. I reported it 
to the School Board. Other than this, with my child 
I have no experience to report that I think was an 
unfair situation, Your Honor.

The Court: Well, in that then your fears and 
apprehensions, as it turned out, the one time—

The Witness: Well, the only actual thing I can 
say that I care to point to here, Your Honor, is that

Howard M. Fitts, Jr.—for Plaintiffs—Cross

one.



222a

The Court: All right.

By Mr Spears:
Q. You have no complaint about the treatment of your

- 2 0 5 -
child by the teacher in these grades, do you? A. No, I 
have not.

Mr. Spears : That’s all.
The Court: All right. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)
Mr. Jarvis: Your Honor, we would like to move 

to strike, for the purpose of the record, all of this 
witness’s testimony.

The Court: Well, motion denied. I ’ll give further 
consideration to it. It’s still conditional in the 
record.

Mr. Nabrit: Mr. Hannen.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Lew W. Hannen was called as a witness on behalf of 
the Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was examined 
and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit-.

Q. State your name, sir, and your position with the 
Durham Public Schools. A. Lew W. Hannen, Superin­
tendent of Durham City Schools.

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you several pieces of paper 
marked “ Special Meeting, Board of Education, City of

—206—
Durham, June 9, 1965.” Attached to that are four sheets



223a

that are marked “Resolution.” They have your signature. 
Would you identify those, please? A. These are accurate 
documents.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer into 
evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit Number 1 under date 
1965, minutes of the Special Meeting of the Board 
of Education for the City of Durham dated June 9, 
1965, with two attached resolutions.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
The Court: All right, let the exhibits be received 

in evidence.
Well, let’s identify these as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 

65-1, 65-2, and so on; and if the defendant has ex­
hibits put the defendant’s exhibits as 65-1 and 65-2 
so as to distinguish them from exhibits previously 
received. Wouldn’t that do it?

Mr. Nabrit: Very well, Your Honor. Thank you.

(The documents above referred to were marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-1.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a document marked “ Special 
Meeting, Board of Education, July 2, 1965,” and ask you

—207—
if you can identify it as the minutes of the meeting on 
that day? A. This is an authentic copy of the minutes 
of that meeting of July 2, 1965.

Mr. Nabrit: I offer this in evidence as Plaintiffs’ 
Exhibit 65-2.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



224a

Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-2.)

By Mr. Nabrit:
Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a copy of a paper marked 

“Special Meeting, Board of Education, August 30, 1965,” 
and ask you if that is a copy of the minutes of that meet­
ing? A. This is an accurate copy of the minutes of the 
meeting of August 30, 1965.

Mr. Nabrit: If it please the Court, I offer this in 
evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-3.

The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.
Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, counsel for 

the defendant has asked me to note for the record 
that in the last exhibit there was a resolution or

—208—
prepared statement which is not included in this 
copy of the minutes. I don’t believe that it has any 
bearing on this matter.

Mr. Jarvis: We agree that it’s not relevant to 
this inquiry, Your Honor.

The Court: Do the minutes refer—
Mr. Nabrit: The minutes say, “Enter statement 

here,” and in the official copy the typist typed it 
in at that point.

The Court: All right. Let the exhibit be received 
in evidence.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



225a

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-3.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a set of papers and ask you 
if these are not copies of pages from the official rules 
and regulations of the Durham City Schools which per­
tain to various personnel policies and which were supplied 
to me by your office? A. These are copies of pages taken 
from the Policy Manual adopted recently by the Durham 
City Board of Education.

Q. Approximately when was this adopted? A. In the 
spring of 1965.

Mr. Nabrit: If it please the Court, I offer this
—2 0 9 -

group of pages as one exhibit, Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 
65-4.

The Court: Are they stapled together, Mr.
Nabrit?

Mr. Nabrit: No, they are not, Your Honor. I 
agree they should be.

The Court: If they are not, I wish you would 
have the Clerk to staple them.

Any objection?
Mr. Jarvis: No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: All right, let the exhibit be received 

in evidence.

(The documents above referred to were marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-4.)

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



226a

Lew W. Hannen■—for Plaintiffs—Direct 

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show yon a document marked “Con­
tract for Instructional Service, For Use of the City Ad­
ministrative Unit,” and I ask you if you can identify that 
document and tell the Court if it’s used and, if so, how? 
A. This document is the state form used for contractual 
purposes in the employment of teachers in the State of 
North Carolina, and is the one used by the Durham City 
Schools.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer this 
contract form in evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-5. 

The Court: Any objection?
Mr. Jarvis : No objection.

— 210—

The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.
(The document above referred to was marked 

for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-5.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a document marked “Appli­
cation for Position, Durham City Schools,” and ask that 
you identify the document, if you can, and tell the Court 
if this document is used and, if so, for what purpose? A. 
This form is used for the re-employment of teachers who 
hold teaching positions in any given year in the Durham 
City Schools.

Q. Is it correct that a different form is used as an appli­
cation for position of new employees? A. Yes, sir.



227a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer this 
document marked “Application for Position, Durham 
City Schools,” as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-6.

Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-6.)

By Mr. Nabrit:
—211

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a blank form letter with the 
letterhead of Superintendent of the Durham Schools, and 
ask you whether or not this is not a standard form letter 
sent to persons who write to you requesting job applica­
tion forms? A. That is correct. This has to do with how 
they might obtain certificates.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer this 
as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-7.

Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
The Court: All right, let the exhibit be received 

in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-7.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Superintendent, I show you a document marked 
“Durham City Schools, Durham, North Carolina, Teachers 
Salary Schedule 1965-66,” and ask you to identify it. A. 
This is the salary schedule adopted by the Board of Edu­
cation for teachers’ salaries for the school year 1965-66.



228a

Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer this 

as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-8.
The Court: Any objection!

— 212—

Mr. Jarvis: No objection.
The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-8.)

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, looking at Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-8, 
would you undertake to explain the various columns of 
information on this document so that we may tell what 
the symbols indicate? A. The letters on this—

Mr. Nabrit: Excuse me. Your Honor, would you 
like to look at one?

The Court: Yes.

A. The letters in the extreme left column indicate the ex­
tent of training as a teacher. The B certificate is for a 
teacher who does not have a Bachelor’s Degree and the 
necessary hours of education, including student teaching. 
In other words, this is a substandard certificate compared 
to the A  certificate. The A certificate is regularly granted 
to those applicants who have completed a Bachelor’s De­
gree and have fulfilled the requirements, professional train­
ing and education, including student teaching. The G cer­
tificate is a graduate certificate and it’s based upon both 
training and experience.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



Lew W. Eannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

—213—
The numbers at the side of the letters indicate the num­

ber of years of teaching experience. For example, the “A-0” 
would be a certificate rating given to a teacher who had a 
Bachelor’s Degree and fulfilled the educational require­
ments, but had had no teaching experience prior to the 
time that the schedule was in effect.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. N owt in order to get a G certificate, is it required that 
you have a Master’s Degree? A. That’s correct.

Q. Is the lowest category G-3, is it—the first two years 
experience don’t count; is that correct? A. You are re­
quired to have three years of teaching experience before 
you can attain a Master’s rating. The reason for the G-2 
being there is that if the teacher starts with a B rating 
and then goes to two years in the A rating, then it would 
be a G-2 rating. That’s the only instance in which the G-2 
would be used.

Q. Now the next column to that is headed “ State, 1 
month.” What is that? A. That is the official state salary 
schedule, and this would be paid to the teacher the first 
month.

Q. And the next column is headed “State, 9% Months.” 
A. That’s multiplying the previous column by 185 days in 
the school year or nine and one-fourth school months.

—214—
Q. Nine and one-fourth school months is the length of 

the school year? A. Right.
Q. That’s the basis on which the teacher is paid out of 

state funds? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the next column is headed “Amount Supplement.”



230a

Would you explain that to the Court? A. That is the 
amount of local money which is used to pay teachers at 
the various levels. This is derived from a local supple­
mentary school tax. This is paid at the request of the 
teachers themselves, part of it early in January and the 
remainder of it at the conclusion of the school year or the 
first of June.

Q. Now do all teachers in the Durham system get this 
local supplement for their level? A. All teachers in the 
Durham City Schools are under the same salary arrange­
ment.

Q. And the final column is entitled “ Salaries” ? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. The actual total salary paid to the teachers? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. And there’s a footnote at the bottom. Would you 
explain that? A. Now the State has provided additional 
funds for payments over and above the regular salary

—2 1 5 -
schedule for those persons who happen to hold a Doctor’s 
Degree—that is, an earned Doctor’s Degree.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Hannen. Mr. Hannen, I show you a 
document marked “Durham City Schools, Classroom Teach­
er Distribution, 1963-64,” and ask you if you can identify 
this. A. This is information that was compiled by the 
business office of the Durham City Schools for the school 
year 1963-64.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer this 
in evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-9.

The Court: Any objection?
Mr. Spears: No, sir.

Lew W. Hcmnen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



231a

The Court: Let the exhibit be received in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-9.)

Mr. Nabrit: May I hand a copy of this to the 
Court?

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, would you undertake to explain this 
teacher distribution chart, starting with the top row of 
columns; what do they indicate, across the top row? A. 
The top row indicates the certification status of the vari­
ous teachers in the various schools for the school year 
1963-64.

—216—
Q. So that, for example the fifth column, which is marked 

“A -l,” indicates teachers with A certificate, one year ex­
perience; is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. In the A group the highest category you have is A-12. 
Would you explain that? A. That means that after a 
teacher has taught 12 years, she will not receive further—■ 
higher remuneration per year for further experience be­
yond the twelfth full year with an A certificate.

Q. Now would the column of numbers under “A-12” indi­
cate teachers with A certificates and 12 or more years of 
experience? A. That’s right.

Q. This could be anywhere from 12 up to the oldest 
teacher in the system? A. That’s right.

Q. And is the same thing true or a similar thing true 
for the category “ Gf-13” ? A. That’s correct.

Q. That’s 13 years or more? A. Yes, sir.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



232a

Q. Now I notice yon have one teacher with a category 
C-4. I believe you indicated to me that there was no longer 
any such certificates in the system? A. That was a sub-

—2 1 7 -
standard certificate by one of the very old teachers at the 
time, and in the meantime she has completed work which 
should entitle her this year to a B rating.

Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, is the distribution of teachers indi­
cated on this form for 1963-64 generally representative of 
the pattern which has continued to the present time? A. 
I can’t answer that without having that information for 
the various years.

Q. Well, it’s two years old. I am trying to ascertain if 
this is more or less typical.

Mr. Jarvis: Mr. Nabrit, if you would permit me 
to interrupt. At the time that this was furnished 
to you, there was not available a distribution sheet 
or schedule like that for the current year. We will 
get one in the hands of the Court, if you would like 
to so stipulate, and substitute it or add it to this 
exhibit, as soon as we can get it up. I understand 
that there may be one available now that one of 
the members of the Board has, if you would like 
to do that.

Mr. Nabrit: Very good. I will accept that stipu­
lation, with the Court’s permission, that the parties 
would file a document comparable to Plaintiffs’ Ex­
hibit 65-9, but up-to-date, brought up to the most 
recent figures; and we would request, Your Honor,

—218—
that that be given an exhibit number now, perhaps.

The Court: Well, let’s put it 65-9(a) when filed,

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



233a

stipulated—I’m just going to write on the bottom 
of this in pencil; Stipulated that the defendant will 
furnish the Court with comparable data with respect 
to— You haven’t filed these figures for ’65-66?

The Witness: No, we have not.
Mr. Jarvis: If it please the Court, we’ll add the 

’64-65 and, as soon as one is available for ’65-66, 
we’ll also furnish that and furnish counsel for the 
plaintiffs with copies, of course.

The Court: Well, let me ask this. Mr. Hannen, 
you are not bound by this, but I imagine you have a 
pretty fair idea as to whether or not these ’65-66 
figures are reasonably comparable to these.

The Witness: That is right.
The Court: There has been no dramatic change, 

has there?
The Witness: It would vary from year to year, 

but in general it would follow this pattern.
The Court: So isn’t it true that to add to and to 

show any changes there, that this year would prob­
ably reflect a comparable change?

Mr. Jarvis: Yes, sir.
—219—

The Court: All right. Now that’s it; I put a nota­
tion down on this Exhibit 9 that it has been re­
ceived in evidence, and see if that’s in accordance 
with your understanding.

Mr. Jarvis: Do you want us to sign this, sir?
The Court: No, that’s all right. The record will 

disclose it. That is your understanding?
Mr. Jarvis: Yes, sir.
Mr. Nabrit: Yes, sir, Your Honor.
The Court: All right, let it be received in evidence.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



234a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

L

& i

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Superintendent, I ’ll ask you if generally Exhibit 
65-9 indicates that approximately in the neighborhood of 
48 percent of the total number of Negro teachers in the 
syslenrhave graduate degrees? A. That’s right.

Q. And I’ll ask you if it also isn’t true that Exhibit 65-9 
indicates that something slightly less t.ha.u-2£L percent, 
between 18 and 20 percent of the white teachers in the 
system have graduate degrees? A. That’s right.

Q. Mr. Superintendent, I ’ll also ask you if generally the 
exhibit does not indicate that a substantially greater per­
centage of Negro teachers were in the upper range of 
experience—that is, 13 years and above, 12 years and 
above—than white teachers? A. That’s right.

— 220—

Q. And that conversely you had a large percentage of 
white teachers who had less degrees of experience than 
there were Negro teachers in that category? A. That’s 
right. And of course the factor there that’s important is 
that you have a large pool of hundreds and hundreds of 
white teachers available as wives of graduate students at 
Duke and Carolina.

The Court: Has what? I didn’t hear that.
The Witness: Wives of graduate students who 

attend Duke and the University of North Carolina.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. What is the pattern with some teachers? I mean do 
they come— Isn’t it true that they come and stay a few 
years, two or three years, while their husbands are in 
school, sometimes one year, and then leave? A. Gener-



235a

ally, these people who are employed stay three or four 
years.

Q. Now I’ll ask you to indicate generally—what could 
you tell me about what the turnover rate is ; do you know 
that? A. No, I don’t know the answer to that.

Q. Well, let me try to get that information in another 
way. A. If you are indicating that the turnover rate is 
larger, considerably larger, among the white teachers than 
among the Negro teachers, that would be correct.

— 221—

Q. Well, can you give the Court an estimate, or the 
actual figure perhaps by looking at the interrogatories, of 
the number of new people hired? A. Yes. Normally we 
would employ between 75 and 100 new teachers each year; 
and by “new” teachers, we mean not only additional staff 
members, but replacement of staff members.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, at this time 
I would like to offer in evidence the answer of the 
defendant to interrogatories submitted by the plain­
tiffs on September 3, 1965.

The Court: That’s Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-10. It is 
the defendant’s answer to—

Mr. Nabrit: Interrogatories submitted by the 
plaintiff on September 3, 1965.

Mr. Jarvis: May it please the Court, those an­
swers—

The Court: Were the answers submitted Septem­
ber 3 or the interrogatories submitted September 3?

Mr. Nabrit: Interrogatories.
Mr. Jarvis: May it please the Court, as a matter 

of information, those answers restate the questions 
that were submitted—

Mr. Nabrit: Yes.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



236a

Mr. Jarvis: —so perhaps just introducing the 
answers would be appropriate since the questions 
are also there.

— 222—

The Court: Well, the original of this is in the 
Court file, the original of the answers, and the 
answers were filed with the Clerk on September 22, 
1965, and appear to be dated, the certificate of 
service, on September 21, 1965.

Mr. Nabrit: Yes, Your Honor.
The Court: Do you want to introduce another 

copy or do you want this original?
Mr. Nabrit: I would like the original to be marked 

perhaps by the Clerk.
The Court: Well now, the original has a number 

of exhibits and you would include, of course, the 
exhibits attached to it?

Mr. Nabrit: Yes, I would.
The Court: Well, Mr. Clerk, maybe you’d better 

take these answers, and they are originals, and mark 
them as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-10, and let them be 
received in evidence.

(The documents above referred to were marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-10.)

Mr. Jarvis: May it please the Court, as I under­
stand it then, the questions and the answers are 
being introduced in evidence?

—223—
The Court: That’s true. The answers wouldn’t 

help you much without the questions.
Mr. Jarvis: No. That’s the reason I made that 

point.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



237a

The Court: You do repeat, I believe, in your an­
swer you repeat the question and then give the 
answer.

Mr. Jarvis: Yes, sir.
The Court: Do those answers have attached any 

of the material that you have previously introduced 
as an exhibit?

Mr. Nabrit: Any of it? I think not.
The Court: Well, I knew there were some charts 

and tables; I didn’t know if there was any duplica­
tion.

Mr. Jarvis: I do not believe so, Your Honor.
Mr. Nabrit: I don’t believe there’s any.
Mr. Jarvis: The other information that has been 

introduced was furnished informally to the plaintiffs.
The Court: Well, that’s all right. If there is, I 

will detect it. It would not make any difference.
Mr. Hannen, while he is looking at that, let me 

ask you a question. I imagine your experience is 
much the same as other School Boards’. You say 
that the Board employs from 75 to 100 new teachers 
a year, which are for new positions created because 
of expanding enrollment, I presume, and also for

—2 2 4 -
replacement of teachers who resigned the year be­
fore. Do you have normally as many applicants, 
teachers with A or G certificates that is, qualified 
applicants, as you have positions to fill or do you 
have to go recruit or do you have two applications 
for each position or one and a half; can you give 
me any information about that?

The Witness: Yes, sir. We do recruit in various 
ways, particularly from all the student training in-

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



238a

stitutions in the southeastern quarter of the United 
States, plus sending out a brochure. We also ask 
our teachers and principals when they go to educa­
tional meetings to try to find some friends or ac­
quaintances, those who would be desirable to try 
to recruit to come to Durham.

But in addition to that we have these girls, 
largely girls, from all over the United States who 
come here with their husbands to do graduate 
work, which means that we have a pool of perhaps 
between five hundred and a thousand applicants 
among that group. And this would not be true in 
any other large city system in North Carolina, and 
very few places in the Southeast. This means that 
ordinarily we in most cases would have many more 
applicants than we .have teaching positions.

For example, English or social studies would be
- 2 2 5 -

fields in which we would have dozens more applica­
tions than we would have vacancies each year. On 
the other hand, when you start looking for a chemis­
try teacher or a vocational teacher or someone to 
teach Russian, for example, we might have con­
siderable difficulty in finding that particular person 
at a given time.

The Court: Do you teach Russian here!
The Witness: Yes, sir. Only two schools in the 

State are teaching it; Durham High School is one 
of them. We also teach German; I think there are 
about eight or nine high schools in the State teaching 
German.

The Court: Well, you have answered. Thank you.

Lew W. Ilannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



239a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct 

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, if yon will look at your answer to In­
terrogatory Number 17, isn’t it correct that this indicates 
the number of new teaching positions, that is the net in­
crease in teaching positions, during those three school 
terms, those last three school terms? A. These figures 
are the number of teachers employed to fill vacancies 
which occurred during the school term each year.

Q. Would you— Are you sure of that, sir? I ’m not dis­
puting you; I just— Would you read that? A. I ’m sorry. 
I thought this was another table that you had.

Q. All right. A. These are the positions that were
—226—

created as new, additional positions during these years 
given.

Q. So that you had in ’63-64 eighteen new positions, in 
’64-65 sixteen new positions, and ’65-66 four new* positions ? 
A. That’s right.

Q. But in each of those years you were— A. Replacing 
people.

Q. —nonetheless hiring in the neighborhood of 75 to 
100 people as replacements or including— A. Including 
these.

Q. Including these and replacements? A. Right.
Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, I would ask you to look at Exhibit 

1(e) to the answers to interrogatories, which is a page 
headed “Number of Professional Personnel at Each School 
by Race, June 1965,” and I ask you if these two pages of 
that document do not indicate the staff distribution by 
race for the last school year, ’64-65 year? A. That’s cor­
rect.



240a

Q. The situation in June when the school ends? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Now isn’t it also true, sir, that this document in­
dicates that at that time in the schools that were attended 
entirely hy Negro pupils, there were only Negro teachers 
and there were no white teachers in those schools as of 
June 1965? A. That’s correct.

—227—
Q. And that in the schools where white pupils attend, 

including in that category both the all-white schools and 
the predominantly-white schools, there were no Negro 
faculty members and only white faculty members? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Now is it also correct that that pattern, that that 
came about because of the policy and practice of the 
Durham school system to assign teachers on the basis of 
the race of the pupils in the schools, a system that grew 
up under the segregation laws and has continued to 1965; 
isn’t that correct? A. This was the system or custom or 
i practice. I cannot say that I have been able to find any 
! written policy to that effect.

Q. Now to return to Exhibit 2(e) to the interrogatories, 
a similar document dated September 13, 1965, and I ask 
you if this isn’t the faculty distribution by race as of 
the most recent date available, the beginning of this school 
year? A. That’s right.

Q. And I ’ll ask you, sir, if the prior racial pattern did 
not continue with one exception at Hillside High School? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. And that one exception is a white teacher who has 
been hired at Hillside High School, an all-Negro school? 
{A. That’s correct.

Lew W. Hannen-—■for Plaintiffs—Direct



241a

Q Now I ’ll ask you, sir, if it’s not a fact that on August
—228—

30, 1965, the Durham School Board voted to continue in 
effect its policies with respect to assigning teachers by 
race, the present policy, the pre-existing policy, and stated, 
however, that by majority vote of the Board it might make 
exceptions in the future; is that a fair statement of what 
they did? A. With one other phrase at the end, for as­
signment—

Mr. Spears: Excuse me. He’s asking about some­
thing written. Just read the statement.

Mr. Nabrit: I ’m asking him about his under­
standing of—what his understanding was.

Mr. Jarvis: Your Honor, that statement is already 
in the record there. It might be different from what 
is actually stated in the record.

The Court: Well, I think that what they did would 
be the controlling thing. I don’t know whether Mr. 
Hannen has any recollection or understanding dif­
ferent from what it is; and why would his under­
standing be relevant? If he has an erroneous under­
standing—I don’t know that it is any different.

Mr. Nabrit: I think it’s ambiguous—slightly am. 
biguous—not really, I think.

The Court: Is this in the record anywhere? A 
copy was filed?

Mr. Jarvis: Yes, sir. It’s part of Exhibit Num-
—229—

ber 3.
The Court: Attached to what?
Mr. Jarvis: I believe that’s the minutes of the

Lew W. Ilannen— for Plaintiffs—Direct



242a

meeting of August 30th that are in evidence, and 
that’s where that policy was stated.

Mr. Nabrit: That’s correct, Your Honor. If you’ll 
look on page two of Exhibit 65-3.

The Court: Yes, that’s on the second page; I 
see it. Now I’m not just sure; I guess this was 
filed pursuant to the memorandum here of July 
22nd, but there was filed on September 13th with 
the Clerk a more comprehensive report concerning 
practices of the Board with respect to the employ­
ment and assignment of teachers and so forth. 
Now is that a part of the record anywhere? It’s 
just in the Court file here.

Mr. Jarvis: It has not been introduced into evi­
dence yet, Your Honor. That is what is referred 
to in these meetings; that was adopted at this 
meeting.

The Court: Well, I notice the same paragraph is 
in that report. Do you propose to introduce— You 
have a copy of this, I assume?

Mr. Nabrit: Yes, I have one right in hand, Your 
Honor.

The Court: It’s addressed to—the first part of 
the report is addressed to Mr. Herman A. Rhine-

—2 3 0 -
hart, Chairman, and so forth. Do you propose to 
introduce that? I don’t know whether you’ll want 
it in the record or not.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, I am in the position, Your 
Honor, where I want it in the record but I also 
want to cross-examine the witnesses about the docu­
ment. I’m reluctant to put it in as my own exhibit, 
unless I question witnesses about it.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



243a

The Court: Well, I ’ll give you some latitude on 
that. Do you propose to put it in?

Mr. Jarvis: We propose that it should be in the 
record.

Mr. Nabrit: I agree.
The Court: Well, I wanted to get it out of the 

Court file if I ’m not supposed to consider it. It’s 
just there and I had looked over it preparatory to 
this hearing, and I didn’t want to be considering 
something that was not a part of the record and 
that was the reason for my inquiry.

Mr. Nabrit: That was properly before the Court. 
It was filed in response to Your Honor’s direction 
that the committee make a report.

The Court: Well, if you want to put it in, I ’ll 
give you latitude about cross examination.

Mr. Nabrit: Very well, Your Honor. I ’ll ask Mr.
— 231—

Hannen about it now.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Hannen, would you identify the document be­
fore you, which is a great number of pages there? Would 
you tell what the various documents put together here 
are, the first one? A. This is a report to the Chairman 
of the Durham City Board of Education, Mr. Herman A. 
Rhinehart, dated August 20, 1965, pertaining to the work 
of a committee studying employment and assignment of 
professional personnel. It sets forth information regard­
ing meetings of the committee, information accumulated 
by the committee, and concludes with some recommenda­
tions and observations by the committee; and it has at­
tached to it certain—

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



244a

Q. What is the first document attached to it? A. __cer­
tain documents, one on the National Teachers Examina­
tion.

Q. Now that document, “Subject: National Teachers 
Examination,” is that the— A. This is a report of—

Q. A report from the School Board Chairman and you 
to this committee about a meeting you had? A. Yes. This 
is an explanatory insertion here that is referred to in 
the document submitted by the committee and it purpoi'ts 
to give the results of a meeting held between the Chairman 
of the Board and the Superintendent on the one hand

—232—
and a committee of professional people on the other, re­
garding certain suggestions with reference to giving the 
National Teachers Examination.

Q. All right. Now turning to the next attachment, it’s 
marked “Summary of Questionnaire Filled out by Profes­
sional Personnel.” There’s one sheet that has on it “White 
Teachers” ; the next sheet has on it “Negro Teachers.” 
Am I correct that this purports to be a tabulation of ques­
tionnaires answered by the teachers? A. That’s right.

Q. Now can you tell us how the tabulation was con­
ducted? A. The tabulation was made by the clerical staff 
of the Durham City Schools under the direction of the 
Superintendent, and then was made again, was double- 
checked by other members of the clerical staff.

Q. Now am I correct that on this questionnaire the 
person who made the tabulation indicated “No preference 
stated” for any respondent who did not use the numerical 
preference system, one, two, three—that is, someone who 
wrote in “yes” or wrote a little note or put check marks 
—people that responded in that fashion were listed “no

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



245a

preference” ? A. I think that the instructions given were 
that if there was one check mark in a series of possibilities, 
where you had, for example here, five choices and here 
you had eight choices—

Q. Well, I guess I—
—233—

Mr. Jarvis: Well, let him explain, please, Mr.
Nabrit. I think he’s attempting to.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Go ahead. A. Where there was one check mark for 
any one of these series, this was counted as a first choice 
since it was the only choice; or if it was a “yes” or a “no,” 
it was counted as a first choice if that was the only mark 
in that series.

Now if these were labeled one, two, and three, we counted 
just the first choice of this person, so that in the final 
tabulation you would have exactly the same number of 
answers that you had respondents to the questionnaire.

Q. There was no tabulation of second choices? A. No 
tabulation of second or third choices.

Q. Now isn’t it correct that the actual questionnaire, 
under the first half of the page there where, “I am qualified 
to teach,” there are really only four questions and no 
preference is stated on the questionnaire? A. That’s right.

Q. They had four categories; it was: “ I am qualified to 
teach,” and “I am willing to teach,” either “integrated 
classes,” “predominantly Negro classes,” “predominantly 
white classes,” or “any of the above equally” ; those were 
the four? A. That’s right.

Q. Blanks the teachers could mark. Now who prepared 
this questionnaire, do you know? A. This questionnaire

Lew W. Ilannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



246a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

—234—-
was prepared by the committee working on the employ­
ment and assignment of professional personnel.

Q. Do you know if any of them had training as to 
opinion-sampling techniques, as to how to design a scien­
tific opinion instrument? A. I think you would have to 
ask them that question.

Q. You don’t know that any of them had that training? 
A. I ’m not aware of what training that any of them had.

Q. Continuing with the documents in this set of papers, 
we next come to a document that is marked “Application 
for Position,” and has handwritten at the top “old.” A. 
That’s right.

Q. And that’s followed by another one, similar but 
slightly different form, that has at the top “new” ? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Now would you tell us what these two documents 
are? A. These are the applications for positions used by 
the Durham City Schools, that are sent to the various 
applicants who are seeking teaching positions in the Dur­
ham City Schools.

Q. Now what are the old and new? When was the old 
used and when was the new used? A. The new was 
adopted within the last two years when it became in­
creasingly important that we have data on hand regarding 
the scores of teachers on the National Teachers Examina­
tion. This is essentially the main difference in the two

—2 3 5 -
documents.

Q. Now am I correct that these are the forms which are 
sent to the new person who has never been associated 
with this system before who applies for a job? A. That’s 
correct.



247a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Q. Now is it also correct that both applications, the old 
and the new, asks for the race of the applicant and for a 
photograph to be attached? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I would 
offer the documents that the witness has just de­
scribed, the report of the committee studying the 
employment and assignment of professional per­
sonnel and the various attachments.

The Court: How about taking the one filed with 
the Court bearing the Clerk’s stamp of September 
13, 1965? You look that over and see and then we 
will not have duplicates in.

Mr. Nabrit: We offer this as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 
65-11.

The Court: Let it be received in evidence.

(The documents above referred to were marked 
for identification and received in evidence as : 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-11.)

By Mr. Nabrit:
—236—

Q. Mr. Hannen, I show you a document marked “Mi­
nority Report of the Subcommittee on the Desegregation 
of Teacher Personnel and Staff of the Durham City Board 
of Education,” and ask you if you identify this document? 
A. Yes. This is a notation or report to the Chairman of 
the Board from Doctor Theodore E. Speigner, stating rec­
ommendations that he wished to make regarding the em­
ployment and placing of teacher personnel.

Q. Doctor Speigner was a member of the subcommittee— 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. —referred to in Exhibit 10? A. Yes, sir.



248a

Q. And his name is listed on that report but he also filed 
a he didn’t sign it but he filed a minority repo rt; is that 
correct? A. That is right.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I offer in 
evidence the minority report of Doctor Speigner.

The Court: That will be Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-12. 
Let it be received in evidence.

(The document above referred to was marked 
for identification and received in evidence as: 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 65-12.)

* * * * *

— 237—* * * * *
Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, at this time 

I would like to offer into evidence the depositions of 
Lew W. Hannen, Doctor Theodore R. Speigner, Mrs.

—238—
Annie Laurie Bugg, and Mr. George Reid Parks, 
three members of the School Board and the Super­
intendent of Schools, taken in this case—

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
* * * * *

—242—
* * * * *

Mr. Jarvis: Well, as I say, we withdraw our ob­
jection.

The Court: Well, I believe it would be better then 
to give them separate exhibit numbers. Now Plain­
tiffs’ Exhibit 65-13 is the deposition of Mr. Parks, 
and Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-14 will be what deposition?

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



249a

Mr. Nabrit: Mrs. Bugg.

(The depositions above referred to were marked 
for identification, respectively, as: Plaintiffs’ 
Exhibits Nos. 65-13 and 65-14.)

The Court: And Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-15 is the 
deposition of!

Mr. Nabrit: Doctor Speigner, S-p-e-i-g-n-e-r.

(The deposition above referred to was marked 
for identification as: Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 
65-15.)

The Court: And Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-16 is the 
deposition of?

Mr. Nabrit: That will be the deposition of Mr. 
Hannen.

—243—
(The deposition above referred to was marked 

for identification as: Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 
65-16.)

The Court: And Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-17?
Mr. Nabrit: We have all four of them, Your 

Honor; we have 13 through 16. There were only 
four that were deposed.

The Court: Only four, all right. Well, let those 
exhibits then be received in evidence without objec­
tion.

(The four depositions above referred to, hereto­
fore marked for identification, were received 
in evidence as: Plaintiffs’ Exhibits Nos. 65-13, 
65-14, 65-15, and 65-16.)

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



250a

Mr. Spears: Now, Your Honor, I want to make 
a statement; as far as I ’m concerned, it’s off the 
record. We did not object in the beginning to Mr. 
Parks’ because Mr. Parks had to be out of the city, 
and it was agreed between counsel that we could use 
his deposition because he could not be here; and 
that’s the reason we didn’t object to Mr. Parks’.

The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Nabrit: If it please the Court, at this time I 

would like to offer into evidence four documents 
which are certified as true copies in a form accord-

—244—
ing to the statutes by the Assistant General Counsel 
of the Department of Health, Education, and Wel­
fare. These four documents all pertain to school 
desegregation and, in order, they are a document 
entitled “ Plan of Desegregation,” which deals—the 
first sheet deals with instructions and then the second 
is a sort of a blank form, “Desegregation Plan Based 
on a Freedom of Choice System.” The second docu­
ment is a memorandum from the United States Com­
missioner of Education dated June 9, 1965, on the 
subject of “Discriminatory Dismissal of Negro 
Schoolteachers in Connection with Desegregation.” 
The third document as certified is a document en­
titled “ General Statement of Policies Under Title 
VI of the Civil Eights Act of 1964 Respecting De­
segregation of Elementary and Secondary Schools.” 
That’s dated April 1965. And the fourth document, 
another document entitled “Plan of Desegregation,” 
which deals with—it’s a blank form plan dealing 
with geographic attendance zones.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



251a

I have copies of these.
Mr. Spears: We object to each of those documents 

offered.
The Court: Have you seen a copy of them?
Mr. Jarvis: Yes, sir.
Mr. Spears: He showed me this morning, but I

- 245-

object to it.
Mr. Jarvis: We have seen these documents as they 

were furnished to the Board from time to time.
The Court: As they were furnished to the Board?
Mr. Nabrit: By the Department of Health, Edu­

cation, and Welfare.
Mr. Jarvis: By the Department of Health, Edu­

cation, and Welfare.
The Court: Well, let me see them.
Mr. Jarvis: We don’t think that these documents 

are competent.
Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, on the issue 

of authenticity, I think that’s covered by the Federal 
Rules.

Mr. Jarvis: Oh, we would stipulate that they are 
authentic. It’s a question of their competency.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, as I say, my 
principal purpose in submitting these is at the con­
ference we had here in open Court this summer, the 
Court indicated it wanted to be informed about the 
policies of HEW respecting faculty desegregation. 
So I talked with the staff there in Washington and 
asked them to give me the documents which indi­
cated their policies. This was the agreement. That’s 
why I’m offering it.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



252a

Lew W. Ilannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 246—

The Court: Well, I don’t remember verbatim what 
was stated. I think what I had in mind when I made 
that statement back then was that I was generally 
familiar with the fact, that it had been in the press 
that the Department of Health, Education, and Wel­
fare were requiring something in this field as a pre­
requisite to the receipt of Federal funds in the 
operation of school systems, and that perhaps if this 
administrative unit received and used Federal funds 
that it would be a final solution to this entire area 
between the obligation imposed upon the School 
Board by Health, Education, and Welfare as a pre­
requisite to the receipt of those funds; thereby it 
might avoid any further controversy in Court in the 
area, I think is what I had in mind.

Mr. Nabrit: May I say, Your Honor, that I intend 
to question the witness about the negotiations of the 
School Board with HEW, the present status of it, 
about the receipt of these documents I just offered 
in evidence from HEW, the Board’s consideration 
of them.

I represent to the Court that there is a discussion 
of these documents by the witnesses in the deposi­
tions, and I am prepared to argue a great variety 
of reasons why these documents are relevant and 
of interest.

One of them, the document has quoted it in full,
—247—

the recent opinion of the Fifth Circuit, the guide­
line, the appendix, it’s completely printed in Federal 
Second. So these are not documents of any great 
secret or anything. These are publicly-announced



253a

policies of the Department. I think they have a direct 
legal bearing on the situation.

The Court: Well, I can see this, Mr. Nabrit, that 
if you think that you are attempting or these plain­
tiffs are attempting to enforce some provision of the 
Civil Eights Act, then that’s one thing, if that law 
is applicable to this situation. Now if it is not and 
you are seeking the protection of constitutional rights 
in what some Federal bureau or agency might or 
might not do in this field, it doesn’t seem that it’s 
pertinent to this inquiry.

Now the question, if the plaintiffs here are content 
with the requirements of Health, Education, and 
Welfare and what they require of the School Board 
and the School Board’s compliance with that as long 
as they receive Federal funds, then that ends all of 
our controversy because there is another agency en­
forcing it.

But here now you are applying to the Court, and 
I don’t see how you can have it all ways, to say: I 
want what they require the Court to enforce and then

—248—
I want, in addition to that I want to go beyond their 
requirements and to take the combination of those 
requirements and the requirements of the decisions 
of the Courts in the field, and I am seeking the more 
favorable of the combination.

I don’t see that you can do that.
Mr. Nabrit: I am almost put in the position by 

Your Honor’s question of having to make a full 
argument on the merits, but let me try to do it real 
quickly.

The Court: All right.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



254a

Mr. Nabrit: Number one, our suit is under the 
Constitution and is authorized by the Acts of Con­
gress giving District Courts the right to jurisdiction.

Number two, it is relevant for the Court’s con­
sideration of what to do about any constitutional 
question, what Congress has done, said, and author­
ized the Executive Branch to do in carrying out, in 
implementing the first section of the Fourteenth 
Amendment and an Act passed under the fifth sec­
tion of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Number three, the Fifth Circuit has held twice a 
proposition which I think commends itself to rea­
son, and that is that it’s just a matter of relation­
ships between the Judicial and the Executive 
Branches of the Government; that the Judicial 
Branch ought to pay attention—when they are both

—249—
operating in the same field, the Judiciary ought to 
inform itself on what the Executive Branch is doing 
in the same area and make efforts to—not to work 
in conflict, at least, within of course—recognizing, 
of course, the different responsibilities, the fact that 
the Court’s obligation in the last analysis is not to 
do what the Executive Branch wants, but what is 
constitutional, and all that.

The Fifth Circuit held in the Singleton case re­
cently and in the case called Price against Dennison 
that it would give great weight to the Office of Edu­
cation guidelines, one of these documents I just of­
fered in evidence; and I think that’s only reasonable 
because certainly the Congress, in passing Title VI, 
putting the Commissioner in the picture, didn’t in-

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



255a

tend to promote conflict between the Judicial and 
the Executive Branch any more than was necessary.

The Court: Well, let me ask you this. I know 
nothing about— Is it or is it not a fact that the Com­
missioner, where there has been a Court order, has 
adhered to the Court order and accepted that com­
pletely or has the Commissioner gone beyond the 
Court order and imposed additional restrictions on 
boards as a condition precedent to the receipt of 
funds ?

Mr. Nabrit: I have no reliable information other
—250—

than those guidelines, what he said he was going 
to do.

The Court: What does he say he is going to do?
Mr. Nabrit: And it’s vague. It’s vague. What 

they say, the reference is to final Court orders and 
Court orders of a certain kind.

The Court: Where is that?
Mr. Nabrit: Well, if you start at the first page 

of the guidelines, Roman numeral II, “Methods of 
Compliance” indicates four things. One of them, one 
of the alternatives is : “Submitting a final order of a 
court of the United States for the desegregation of 
the school or school system which satisfies the re­
quirements specified in IV below, together with an 
Initial Compliance Report” ; and then IV is also on 
the same page. They undertake to— They talk about 
final orders and they talk about orders which direct 
desegregation of the school system. They talk about 
the compliance reports, and then—

The Court: Well, that would look like, just from 
reading this—I have never seen this before—but it

Lew W. Hannem—for Plaintiffs^-Direct



256a

looks like that he would accept compliance with the 
Civil Rights Act or compliance with the Court order 
if the Court order is to his liking, but if it’s not to 
his liking that he will impose additional require­
ments. Isn’t that about what he says ? “Submitting 
a final order of a court of the United States for

—251—
the desegregation of the school or school system 
which satisfies the requirements specified in IV be­
low” ; and the IV : “A school system subject to 
a final order of a court of the United States will 
be eligible for Federal assistance only if the order 
directs desegregation of the school system; it does 
not suffice if the order merely directs school author­
ities to admit certain named persons or otherwise 
fails to require the elimination of a dual or segre­
gated system of schools based on race, color or na­
tional origin.” And then they have to indicate the 
present state of compliance with the order and the 
school district’s program.

In other words, if it goes as far as he thinks it 
should go and contains the provisions he thinks 
it should, that he will approve it; otherwise, that 
he will impose requirements beyond the Court order.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, we can all read it. I have no 
access to any information beyond this document.

The Court: Well, that’s the first time I ’ve ever 
seen this document; but I just don’t, Mr. Nabrit, 
see how that is germane.

Now I am going to do, as I am given the wisdom 
to know and to read and to understand, what the 
Courts have said is proper in this area depending 
upon the evidence adduced. That I have always

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



257a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

—252—
attempted to do in these orders. Now we have here 
specifically an opinion of the Court of Appeals for 
this Circuit some three months ago speaking to the 
only areas that we have before us. Number one is 
what sort of plan should be required of the Board, 
that is, a continuing type of plan; should the Board 
be required to submit a plan based on compact dis­
tricts and using natural boundaries and so forth, or 
is a true freedom of choice as was laid out in some 
detail in the Richmond case and referred to in the 
opinion here in this case—is that sufficient if the 
Board elects to do that.

Now that is one question we have. The other is 
this desegregation of the faculty and administrative 
personnel. As I read those decisions, it was that 
the plaintiffs are entitled to show as to how the 
present practices or lack of desegregation of teacher 
and administrative personnel affects the child; and 
if there is a showing that a child is adversely af­
fected, then that you have perhaps met the require­
ments. But it seems to me that is the only area; and 
how the Secretary of Health, Education, and Wel­
fare by his rule can help us in that area I do not 
know.

I have tried to give you every latitude possible 
and, as you recall, even your own witness said 
yesterday, “Well, maybe I shouldn’t go into that

—253—
because that has been covered in other speeches to­
day.” And they were largely “ speeches.” It was all 
right; I let it in. I have tried to get everything in 
that is germane to this. But if we go to taking the



258a

opinions of all agencies and individuals who write 
rules and regulations to try to aid us in this, we’ll 
be here for weeks.

I just do not think it’s competent under the deci­
sions of the Court. They are my guide and I ’m 
going to try to comply with them just as scrupu­
lously as I know how. Now if you will point out to 
me—I’m going to follow—I don’t think anybody 
should ask me to do otherwise—I am going to 
follow as nearly as I know how to do it the pro­
nouncements of the Court of Appeals for this Fourth 
Circuit and the Supreme Court of the United States 
if they have spoken in appeal. Now if they haven’t 
spoken in appeal, then of course the Fifth or Tenth 
or any other Circuit becomes important, if they 
haven’t spoken. But if the Fourth Circuit has spoken 
in an area, there is no need to suggest to me that I 
ought to take another Circuit over our own Circuit 
and to substitute my judgment for theirs. I’m not 
going to do that.

Mr. Nabrit: Your Honor, isn’t that a point that 
the Fourth Circuit hasn’t really definitively decided

—254—
the issue of, teacher segregation? They sent it back 
for evidence.

The Court: No, they have said it and as I under­
stand it—the decisions are here; we can get them 
out—they said that these plaintiffs had standing to 
complain but there had been no record made and 
no attempt to show how their rights were affected 
by the other, and it was remanded to give the plain­
tiffs an opportunity to show how the rights of the 
individual minor plaintiffs and their parents were

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



259a

affected by the policy of the Board; and that’s what 
we are here taking evidence on.

But how the Secretary of Health, Education, and 
Welfare can aid us in that area I do not see.

Mr. Nabrit: The point was a simple one in per­
haps a half a dozen cases in the past. My reference 
to the Fifth Circuit was not to suggest that this 
was directly binding on you, but to show how one 
Court regarded the HEW policy as not only being 
relevant but controlling.

The Court: Well, I have read those cases of the 
Fifth Circuit. I attempt to read every advance sheet 
from cover to cover when it comes out, and I read 
those cases. I have not gone back and studied it.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, Your Honor, I don’t want to 
be arguing with your ruling but—

—255—
The Court: I want to give you every bit of lati­

tude I can, but there must be some bounds within 
which we keep it. You can establish that, the policy 
here and how it affects the students here; I think 
that’s what our Court of Appeals has said. And as 
to what Health, Education, and Welfare might re­
quire of some school board as prerequisite to getting 
funds, I don’t know. I have had no experience with 
them and I am not suggesting that they would do 
anything. But they say, well, I have the funds, and 
they can make all sorts of demands that could or 
could not be enforced in Court. I can see that and 
I am not prepared yet to say that a Court should 
take what they say as gospel and to abdicate your 
authority. Our Court of Appeals hasn’t said it. 
When they do I’ll be glad to comply, but until they

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



260a

instruct me to do that I just do not think it is rele­
vant to the inquiry.

Mr. Nabrit: May it please the Court, I would 
move that the documents I have offered in evidence, 
and which Your Honor has rejected, be marked for 
identification and filed in the record under Rule 43 
as excluded evidence.

The Court: Sure, I ’ll be glad to do that. It will 
still bear the mark of 65-17 and will be a part of 
the record, but it will not be received in evidence.

—256—
(The documents above referred to were marked 

for identification as: Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 
65-17.)

The Court: Let’s take about a five-minute recess.

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Nabrit : May it please the Court, perhaps this 

is an excess of caution. I don’t know if I am required 
or not to indicate an exception to the exclusion of 
the Exhibit 65-17.

The Court: All right. You may put it in the 
record.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, isn’t it a fact that the policy of the 
School Board with respect to placing teachers as imple­
mented by you has been to attempt to screen Negro appli­
cants to obtain the best Negro applicants for the jobs in 
the Negro schools, and to screen white applicants, white 
applicants only, in the schools with white pupils, to try to 
get the best of that group ? A. I don’t want to belabor the

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



261a

semantics in the case, but there is no written policy that 
I have been able to find on that; but that has been the pro­
cedure and the custom.

Q. And it has been your understanding that this is what 
the School Board required you to dot

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Well, ask him like this: Has that

—-257-
procedure and custom met with the approval of the 
School Board?

The Witness: Yes, it has.____
The Court: Isthat what you want?
Mr. Nabrit: Yes, sir. Thank you.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Now isn’t it a fact, Mr. Superintendent, that you have 
had discussions with the School Board about changing the 
policy and about a program of faculty desegregation? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. Isn’t a a fact, Mr. Superintendent, that during the 
summer of 1965 at one meeting you suggested to the School 
Board the possibility of transferring a Negro librarian 
from a Negro school to a white school, but that the Board 
declined to approve that suggestion, indicating generally 
that they didn’t think it was time for such a step? Is that 
accurate? A. It is accurate that this was discussed and 
that that suggestion was made, but there was no action 
taken by the Board or referred to in the minutes as action 
of the Board at that meeting.

Q. Well, isn’t it accurate to say—and didn’t you testify 
on your deposition—that your perception of the majority 
response of the Board members was that they thought it

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



262a

wasn’t the time to do such thing? A. That was my testi­
mony in the deposition; that is correct. But I still assert

—258—
that there was no motion made, seconded, and passed at 
that meeting, and therefore no formal action taken. And 
I gave in my deposition purely my personal impression of 
what the general attitude of the Board was toward that 
particular situation.

Q. And subsequently, after that meeting you employed 
a white librarian for that vacancy, so the question was 
resolved in that manner? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Superintendent, there is in evidence a Board 
resolution which pertains to this subject in the minutes of 
August 30, 1965. Let me ask you first if it’s not a fact 
that Doctor Speigner submitted a minority report of that 
committee and disagreed with part of the committee report 
and so indicated at that meeting? A. I don’t recall that 
that was submitted as a minority report at that meeting. 
I do recall that Doctor Speigner read a statement, several 
parts, at the meeting.

Q. And that statement he read, is that the document 
which is in evidence as Exhibit 65-12? A. I ’m not sure 
that that is the exact document. I am sure that it contains 
essentially the point of view that Doctor Speigner ex­
pressed at that meeting.

Q. Now referring to Exhibit 65-3, at the bottom of the 
second page there is a resolution which is quoted there.

—259—
I’ll ask you first to read it to the Court. A. “The present 
policies of the Board with respect to employment and 
assignment of teachers and other personnel have provided 
our school system with an effective program of education

Lew W. Hannen•—for Plaintiffs—Direct



263a

for all the pupils of our schools. The committee recom­
mends that we continue our present policies, but that the 
Board in the employment and assignment of teachers and 
other personnel, by majority vote of its members, make 
exception to any of its policies for valid and sound educa­
tional reasons.”

Q. Mr. Superintendent, as far as you know, is this the 
only written policy of the Board that relates to the assign­
ment of personnel by race? A. That is true, except for 
any of the documents that were introduced from the policy 
manual that might be pertinent to this.

Q. But the policy manual doesn’t reflect the practice you 
just spoke of, assigning Negro teachers to Negro schools 
and whites to white; is that correct? It doesn’t say anything 
about it one way or the other? A. No, sir. But it does 
discuss the employment and placement of teachers.

Q. But in terms of this matter of racial assignment 
policies, this paragraph you just read is the only thing 
that there is that’s written? A. To the best of my knowl-

—2 6 0 -
edge, that’s correct.

Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, referring to the Exhibit 65-11 and 
in particular to the page marked, “ Summary of Question­
naire Filled Out by Professional Personnel,” the one indi­
cating white teachers, would you refer to that?

Now, first, isn’t it a fact that in the tabulation there was 
no indication given to people’s second preference or third 
preference? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And also isn’t it a fact that the tabulation doesn’t 
really indicate—there’s no effort to indicate the intensity 
of the feeling of the respondents about that, whether their 
second preference was something they really would do, for

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



264a

example? A. This simply was a tabulation of the re­
sponses by the various teachers regarding what they pre­
ferred to do, and we assumed that their first choice was 
what they preferred to do.

Q. Do you have any idea of the number of white teachers 
who are now actually teaching integrated classes? A. No.

Q. It would be in excess of the 29 that indicated willing­
ness, wouldn’t it? A. Probably.

Q. Isn’t it a fact that the answers to interrogatories
—261—

indicate that Negro students are at a good number of the 
predominantly-white schools. Do you know how many? A. 
All but one.

Q. All of the white schools— How many white schools? 
A. It would be ten I believe.

Q. And they are at all grade levels? A. I don’t follow 
your question there.

Q. The Negro pupils attending. A. At all grade levels 
in some schools, but not at all grade levels at other schools.

Q. And Exhibit 2 attached to the answers to interroga­
tories indicates how they are distributed throughout the 
school system? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now what was the total number last year of Negroes 
attending school with whites, and this year? A. As I re­
call, the total last year was between four and five hundred; 
it varied from time to time. And the total this year as of 
the date that this deposition was taken, or the latest avail­
able information for the deposition was 601.

Q. Returning to this questionnaire, you had 24 white 
teachers who have indicated that they were willing to teach 
any of the classes equally, is that correct? A. That’s cor­
rect.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiff s—Direct



265a

Q. And you had 53 who didn’t indicate any preference
— 262—

at all? A. That’s correct.
Q. Isn’t it a fact that some of those persons in that 53 

were people who made check marks under one, two, and 
three, or one, two, three, and four, without indicating which 
one was their first choice, just indicated check marks on 
all the boxes, one or more of the boxes? A. If there were 
instances of that, then these people would be counted as 
not having given a preference.

Q. And there were such persons? A. I’m not sure. I 
suspect there were a few.

Q. There wasn’t any count of all the people who didn’t 
return the questionnaire with some marking on it, I mean 
in this total of 323? A. Nor, sir, all of these were.

Q. All of these indicated something? A. Some response, 
that’s right.

Q. Now turning to the next page, which is a summary 
of the responses of Negro teachers, 48 said they were will­
ing to teach integrated classes; correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. And 50 said they were willing to teach predominantly 
Negro classes? A. Yes, sir.

Q. One said predominantly white classes? A. Yes, sir.
—263—

Q. And 160, by far the largest number, said they were 
willing to teach “Any of the above equally” ? A. Yes, sir.

Q. With 29 more saying no preference? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Superintendent, wouldn’t you conclude— 

or do you conclude from this questionnaire in the form it’s 
in now that with respect to both white and Negro teachers, 
there are fairly good numbers who would be willing to 
try a different situation from their prevailing practice if

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—-Direct



266a

the administration offered them the opportunity? A. I 
think you would have to take these statistics exactly as 
they are given and go on from there.

Q. With these questionnaires you didn’t have the names 
of the people in all eases; some signatures were signed but 
no signatures were necessary? A. That’s correct, and you 
would have no way of knowing who these people were so 
that you could follow through administratively on the 
choices.

Q. You would know some but you wouldn’t know for 
others? A. That’s correct.

Q. And isn’t it a fact, Mr. Superintendent, that the 
School Board has not to date taken any action or made any 
statements to the teachers in the system indicating that 
it’s in favor of such applications or would look with favor

— 264—

on such applications? A. There has been no statement, to 
my knowledge, of that type.

Q. Now isn’t it correct that at the deposition you testified 
that you had informed the Board and believed that faculty 
desegregation would eventually come or inevitably come 
or something like that? A. Yes.

Q. You told the Board that? A. Yes. I made the state­
ment I think in the deposition that in my opinion that 
faculty desegregation was in the offing, but how soon that 
would come and to what extent I was not in a position to 
say.

Q. This was something you told the Board in these dis­
cussions during the past years? A. That statement has 
been made at either a Board meeting or a committee meet­
ing; I think at a Board meeting, as I recall.

Q. But the only action the Board has taken with respect 
to this is that resolution of August 30th, the one that you

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



read? A. That action, plus the fact that the Board, you 
will recall, did approve the assignment of the white teacher 
to the high school.

Q. When was that done? A. You have the record there.
Q. It was in 1965? A. 1965.

—265—
Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Superintendent, that no white 

pupil has yet attended any of the schools that have Negro 
faculties in Durham? A. That is correct. I

Q. Now, Mr. Superintendent, in your testimony or depo­
sition a year ago—I think in your testimony to the Court 
you described the fact that the State Board of Education— 
the Department of Public Instruction allotted the number 
of teachers to local units, including Durham, on the basis 
of race—in other words, they allotted you so many Negro 
teachers and so many white teachers—based on the school 
population and a formula. Is it correct that that policy 
by the State Board has been changed, they no longer allot 
numbers on the basis of race? A. Thafa correct.

Q. So that there is nothing about the allotment procedure 
which would require or encourage local authorities to keep 
faculties racially separate at this stage, is that right? A. 1 
There is no indication regarding race now in the State j 
policy.

Q. There is nothing in these regulations which requires 
faculty segregation? A. There is nothing, period.

Q. They have also not adopted any policy requiring it,
—266—

I take it? A. That’s right.
Q. That is, requiring desegregation? A. That’s right.
Q. Mr. Hannen, isn’t it a fact that the Board has de­

clined to submit a plan or commitment on the subject of

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



268a

faculty desegregation to the Department of Health, Edu­
cation, and Welfare?

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
Mr. Spears: Objection.
Mr. Nabrit: Your Honor, I thought I ought to 

ask the witness that question; this involves what the 
School Board has done.

The Court: Well, I think you can establish that. 
I ’m going to sustain the objection. What I am afraid 
of, you are going to lead into a whole wide area 
again with the Health, Education, and Welfare. He 
has stated what the policy has been and how they 
defined it and what the Board was doing.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, one more question, again not 
intending to defeat your ruling but—I want to work 
within the limits of what Your Honor has said. I ’ll 
ask the question so that your objection to— Don’t 
answer it until counsel has an opportunity to object.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Isn’t it a fact that the Department of Health, Edu-
—2 6 7 -

cation, and Welfare has to date declined to approve the 
Durham system for receipt of Federal funds because of 
their requirements under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act?

Mr. Jarvis: You may go ahead and answer that. 

A. Would you restate your question, please?

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



269a

Q. I asked if it isn’t a fact that to date— A. Are you 
saying “today” or “to date” ?

Q. To date, up until now. —they haven’t—declined to 
approve it? A. They “haven’t” declined to approve it?

Q. No, they “have” declined to approve it. Have they 
approved it or not? A. We answered that in our deposi­
tion to the effect that we don’t know where we stand. We 
have had no written communication whatsoever from 
Health, Education, and Welfare indicating that they have 
approved or disapproved our plan. Although we have tried 
more than once and the Chairman of the Board has tried 
to get them to spell out wherein the multitude of docu­
ments that we have sent up there from time to time fall 
short of what they require, as of right now we have had 
no written communication that has indicated whether we 
are approved or disapproved.

Q. You do know that you haven’t received anything tell­
ing you you have been approved? A. We sure haven’t.

—268—
Q. And has this actually affected your receipt of Federal 

funds for this current school year?

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
The Court: Overruled. He can answer it.

A. The Business Manager would have to answer that ques­
tion. I am not evading it or side-stepping it. It’s simply 
this: Ordinarily we would get funds for the first quarter 
of the fiscal school year, which would include July, August, 
and September. Now we did receive funds for the entire 
last school year up through June 30th. These funds are

Lew W. Hanneiv—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:



270a

reimbursement funds after reports are sent in for this 
quarter, and sometimes you get those funds in October, 
sometimes November, and sometimes December. We have 
not received funds for this current quarter because the re­
port is not concluded yet—at least our reimbursement 
funds.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Has the School Board made any application to the 
Government for funds under the Civil Bights Act of 1964 
to grant to the Board money for technical assistance to aid 
you in your desegregation program—

Mr. Spears: Objection.

Q. —or for funds which are available for the Govern­
ment to give the School Board to conduct training institutes 
that ease the process of desegregation, any of those funds'? 
Have you ever applied for any?

— 269—

Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Overruled. He may answer.

A. We have not made application and I think this is largely 
because I have made no recommendation to the Board that 
they make application for these funds, inasmuch as you 
have Duke, Carolina, and North Carolina College here and 
other colleges in the area that have made application for 
funds, and I think a substantial number of our teachers 
have taken advantage of courses given under those funds 
that were appropriated to the institutions, which would 
put us in a different light from some place where there 
weren’t these colleges and universities.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



271a

Q. But the fact of the matter is that the Durham School 
Board hasn’t embraced any of these programs? A. That’s 
correct.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct

By Mr. Nabrit:

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Superintendent, is it your understanding of your 
present authority of the School Board, the present policy 
of hiring and assigning, that you would not have authority 
on your own. to assign a white teacher to a Negro school 
or a Negro teacher to a white school and that you would 
have to submit this, if such a matter came up, to the Board 
to determine whether or not, by a majority vote, they 
would make an exception? A. That is my understanding.

Q. This questionnaire sent around to the personnel, the 
tabulation for Negro teachers has one person who indicated 
willing to teach predominantly-white class and 160 who 
said “Any of the above equally.” Now do you understand 
“Any of the above equally” like I do, to mean that these 
are people who would be willing to teach white classes, 
Negro classes, or integrated classes! A. I don’t know how 
to interpret that because I don’t know why that large num­
ber would check that way. It’s rather difficult to know 
what motive might have been behind that. There may have 
been a multitude of motives. I have not attempted to in­
terpret it. I have just taken the figures for what they 
say, that is, that it’s evident that there are 160 out of that 
group that have said that they are qualified or willing—



272a

that they are willing to teach in any of the above three 
equally well.

Q. I take it you would need to know more than this ques­
tionnaire tabulation indicates to really know what you 
could do if you adopted a program of assigning people who 
were willing? A. I think in the long run you would need, 
before you made any assignments from this data, you cer­
tainly would need to know who these individuals were 
because there would enter into this many of these other 
factors that we have labeled as intangibles and so on. I 
think that you would not, on the basis of that questionnaire

—271—
alone, you would not assume to assign teachers any dif­
ferently from what you have already assigned them or 
change teachers from one position to another.

Q. Mr. Superintendent, don’t you think it would be rea­
sonable to expect that a teacher’s willingness and willing­
ness to tell you if they were willing to make such a change 
would depend at least in part on whether or not the teach­
ers thought the School Board favored this or was reluctant 
or against it ? Don’t you think it would make a difference 
whether or not the School Board told them that, “ This is 
our program and we want you to cooperate,” or if the 
School Board indicated on the other hand that they didn’t 
like it, that this would affect the teachers’ responses? A. 
I think in any instance that a teacher professionally would 
want to cooperate with the Board of Education for the 
betterment of the school system; and if this would fall 
under that category, I think that would be true.

Q. It would matter whether or not the School Board 
took a positive attitude about this or a negative one in 
terms of how the teachers reacted to it, don’t you think?

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Direct



273a

A. I think the teachers in general would try to cooperate 
with the Board in any effort to improve the school system.

Q. Well, what I am asking you specifically I guess is: In 
a program to change the existing system, the teachers’ will­
ingness to change would depend in part on if the School

—2 7 2 -
Board indicated a willingness to change; don’t you think? 
A. Well, I think this is an “ iffy” question, that certainly 
individuals would react to it in varying degrees and in 
varying ways. First of all, I think it would depend on what 
the School Board was asking them to do. Now whether a 
teacher would consider that this was for her benefit and 
the benefit of the school system, I wouldn’t be in a position 
to say, I think.

Mr. Nabrit: Your witness.

Cross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. Mr. Hannen, in the employment of teachers in the 
Durham city schools, it is an employment to fill vacancies; 
is it not? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And for a vacancy in a specific class in a school? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. And in employing a teacher to fill that vacancy, please 
state whether every effort is made by you and your as­
sistants and the principal to get the best teacher available 
for that vacancy. A. That is correct.

Q. Whether it be white teacher or Negro teacher? A. 
That is true, of course with the reservation that we under­
stand where the teachers are to be assigned.

—273—
Q. But an effort is made to get the best teacher available 

for that vacancy? A. Yes, sir.

Lew W. Hannen—-for Plaintiffs—-Cross



274a

Q. Do you have an interview with the teacher? A. Yes, 
we do.

Q, Does the principal have an interview with the teacher 
applicant? A. Wherever that is feasible.

Q. And is the applicant told where the vacancy is, what 
grade, what school? A. Yes. The applicant is told that, 
with the reservation that this is a tentative assignment.

Q. So the applicant is privileged not to accept the offer 
of employment? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the data of this report, it indicates that one Negro 
teacher out of a total of 288 stated that she was willing 
to teach in a predominantly-white class? A. That is cor­
rect.

Q. Only one out of 288, first choice? A. That’s my recol­
lection.

Q. Now these exhibits have the words “ Negro Teach­
ers”—the Exhibit Number 11 offered by the plaintiffs has 
the words “ Negro Teachers” and “White Teachers.” I ask 
you if the questionnaire was sent out—-if it had any desig-

—2 7 4 -
nation of race on it? A. It had no designation on it as 
to race.

Q. And it was optional whether the questionnaire was 
signed by a teacher or not? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it was optional whether the questionnaire would 
be returned or not? A. Yes, sir.

The Court: How did you determine whether or 
not the questionnaire was filled out by a Negro or 
a white teacher?

The Witness: The teachers were instructed, Your 
Honor, to return these in a sealed envelope to the 
principal. These were turned in by schools.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



275a

Q. In other words, the questionnaires were sent to a 
principal of a certain school, of various schools, and they 
were distributed and collected by the principal— A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. —and sent back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that’s the only way you knew whether it was a 

white school or a Negro school or a predominantly-white 
school? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now since it was optional whether it would be signed 
or not, then there was no compunction there, was there,

—275—
about the teacher not being willing to return that making 
a frank statement about the questions submitted? A. The 
teacher was under no compulsion to sign the blank or to 
return the blank.

Q. Regardless of whatever the policy of the Board may 
have been prior to that time? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That one Negro teacher that indicated she was willing 
to teach in a predominantly-white school, you would have 
to find out what grade and what subject that person was 
teaching, wouldn’t you? A. If we were to move that 
teacher.

Q. Yes. You would have to determine the grade and the 
subject the person was teaching and then whether or not 
there was a vacancy in a school that she might be trans­
ferred to? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now in making a transfer, Mr. Hannen, I ’ll ask you 
this: In making transfers you try to take into considera­
tion or do take into consideration that for the teacher trans­
ferred there will be a person employed that is equally well 
qualified to fill that vacancy by reason of the transfer? A.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross

By Mr. Spears:



276a

We would make the transfer only if she were better quali­
fied to.

Q. And then you would endeavor, would you not, within 
the policy, endeavor to obtain a qualified teacher to take the

—276—
place vacated by reason of the transfer? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In other words, the desire of the teacher to make a 
transfer, that is only one of the requisites of the policy of 
the Board? A. That’s right. And it would be somewhere 
down in the list; it would not be first.

Q. I ’ll ask you if your policy isn’t expressed in Plain­
tiffs’ Exhibit 65-4 on Page 4115, and that’s entitled what? 
A. Entitled “Assignment and Transfer” of teachers.

Q. I ’ll ask you to read it.

Mr. Spears: Your Honor, this is in the record, 
but to keep you from having to look through it.

By Mr. Spears:

Q. Would you read that, please, sir? A. “ The assign­
ment of staff members and their transfer to positions in 
the various schools and departments of the district shall 
be made by the superintendent on the basis of the follow­
ing criteria:

“ 1. The needs of the school system as determined 
by the board upon the recommendation of the superin­
tendent ;

“2. Contribution which staff member could make to 
students in new7 positions;

“3. Qualifications of staff member compared to

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



277a

those of outside candidates both for position to be
— 277—

vacated and for position to be filled;

“4. Opportunity for professional growth;

“5. Desire of staff member regarding assignment 
or transfer;

“6. Length of service in Durham City Schools,

“These criteria are listed in order of their importance.” 
are being exercised, yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Hannen, something was said by one of the 
witnesses for the plaintiff about the fear of a pupil being 
transferred to a predominantly-white school as to his not 
being received by the teacher and by his classmates. I ’ll 
ask you if you have had any complaint from a Negro child 
or a Negro parent that their child assigned to a predomi­
nantly-white school has been in any way mistreated or 
hasn’t been given full opportunities afforded in that school1? 
A. I have not had any objection of that type that I recall.

Q. Have you yourself made inquiry of the Negro pupils 
who have been assigned to predominantly-white schools as 
to how they were being treated and how they were get­
ting along? A. I have done that a great many times in­
formally when I would go to a school that was predomi­
nantly white and would see either individual Negro pupils 
or groups of Negro pupils about the school. I have inquired 
specifically, “How are you getting along?” And they 
would say, “Well, all right.”

“ Is everyone treating you all right?”
“Yes.”

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



278a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—278—
“How are you getting along with your teachers and the 

other pupils? Are you getting along all right without any­
one taking advantage of you or anyone bothering you in 
any way?”

And I haven’t had a single instance in which a pupil has 
reported other than that they had been treated by stand­
ards that they considered satisfactory.

Q. Now those Negroes who have been assigned to pre- 
dominantly-white schools, they are permitted to participate 
in all of the full programs of that school, are they not? A. 
We have followed that as a policy regularly.

Q. Band, football, baseball, basketball? A. Chorus, clubs, 
and the entire gamut of activities in the school have been 
offered freely to all pupils on the same basis.

Q. And they are being exercised, are they not? A. They 
are being exercised, yes, sir.

Q. Every school in the city is an integrated school other 
than Club Boulevard, isn’t it? A. Every formerly all- 
white school is integrated except Club Boulevard.

Q. That’s what I meant. Every formerly all-white school 
except Club Boulevard now is an integrated school. A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. And under the freedom of choice, there are no zones 
now? A. No zones at the present time.

—279—
Q. Explain to His Honor in compliance with the order 

what the Board did in July with reference to the initial as­
signment of the 1965-66 school year. A. We followed his 
order as clearly as we could to the best of our understand­
ing in giving absolute freedom of choice to the pupils 
throughout the city schools administrative unit.



279a

Q. And I’ll ask you if the requests have been granted. 
A. All the requests have been granted.

Q. Both Negroes and white for freedom of choice? A. 
Yes, sir. And in every case this was the first choice of 
the parent.

Q. And thus far has there been any overcrowding in the 
city schools? A. There has been slight overcrowding in 
two or three places based on the standard of 30 pupils per 
classroom, which the Board has in the past attempted to 
hold to as far as possible. But there is no overcrowding 
under the standard set up by the State and Southern As­
sociation which allows up to 35 in these grades four through 
eight.

Q. Now you were asked about the applicants available 
for teaching in the Durham city schools and as to how long 
was their experience from the exhibit handed to you; and 
you stated that a great many applicants were wives of 
graduate students, law students, medical students at the 
University of North Carolina, Duke University, and North

—280—-
Carolina College. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. Now as a rule they do not teach more than how many 
years here? A. As a rule they teach three or four years.

Q. Now you, at the time you employ them you realize 
that, you know it will be temporary as far as their being 
here ? A. That’s right. Unless of course they change their 
mind in the meantime and like Durham so well they stay, 
and that happens in some instances.

Q. Now I’ll ask you, of that pool if you had a similarly 
qualified applicant, a person who lived in the area and was 
going to be more or less permanent here, then which one 
would you select? A. Other factors being equal, we would 
select the person who would be here through the years.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



280a

Q. And that would account for the fact that in certain 
grades that you have here—or a certain number of teach­
ers—the turnover due to this employing the wives of these 
medical, law, and graduate students! A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that turnover from your standpoint, as far as 
the Board, is really not desirable, is it! A. Not if you 
could find qualified applicants.

Q. I mean if you could find qualified teachers who would
- 281-

say, “ This is my life work and I want to stay here” ! A. 
If these teachers were of equal ability to these temporary 
teachers, we certainly would employ the ones who were 
going to be here for an extended period of time.

Q. Now I ask you if you agree with Mr. Herman’s state­
ment yesterday that you couldn’t just look at an appli­
cant’s record and his certificate and tell whether he or she 
was well qualified for the position that was vacant! A. 
On that basis alone you could not tell.

Q. You should have an interview; and are there not in­
tangibles that enter into the employment of a teacher! A. 
Yes, sir. I have stated a number of times—

The Witness: If His Honor will permit me to 
enlarge on this just a moment.

A. —that in every instance in which I interview a teacher, 
as I talk with that teacher I am asking myself constantly 
the question: Is this the type of vibrant, enthusiastic, per­
haps optimistic, friendly, and capable person that I would 
want teaching one of my two sons or my daughter!

Lew W. Hcmnen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



281a

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross 

By Mr. Spears:

Q. And does it necessarily follow that an applicant or 
a teacher who has a graduate degree is better than a person 
who has an A.B. Degree? A. I didn’t follow you.

Q. I say does it necessarily follow that a person, an ap­
plicant or a teacher, who has a graduate degree—that is,

—282—
a Master’s Degree—is necessarily a better teacher than 
one who has only an A.B. Degree? A. No, that doesn’t 
necessarily follow at all. In one very recent year, as I re­
call, the only white teacher that we did not re-employ at 
the end of the year was a teacher with a Master’s Degree 
and ten years of teaching experience.

Q. Well, why was she not re-employed? A. Incompe­
tence. We judged that by the year; we had that teacher 
just one year. I’m not implying that we had her all ten.

Q. Well, that’s what I was going to ask you, if you had 
her ten years to find out that she was incompetent. You 
say that one you refer to was here only one year? A. Was 
here only one year. There may have been one or two other 
teachers that I don’t recall released that year, but this 
one impressed me very much.

Q. The Plaintiffs’ Exhibit Number 3, the minutes of the 
Specail Meeting of the Board August 30, 1965—now at the 
meeting on September 13th, were these minutes read at 
that time? Were these minutes read at the meeting on 
September 13th? A. No, these minutes were not read. 
They are submitted to the Board some days prior to the 
meeting.

Q. Each member of the Board? A. Each member of the



282a

Board, after they had been written up by the Superin-
—283—

tendent and checked with the Chairman of the Board.
Q. And at that time was there an amendment to show 

this vote was a four-to-two vote? A. That’s right. And I 
think those members of the Board who voted against that 
motion requested that their votes be recorded.

Q. The minutes of August 30th were corrected to show 
that the vote on the report as far as the employment of 
teachers was four to two rather than five to one, is that 
correct! A. That’s correct.

Q. Now at that meeting on August 30th when the report 
of Mr. Parks, Mrs. Bugg, and Doctor Speigner was pre­
sented and read, at that meeting did Doctor Speigner sub­
mit a signed minority report at that time ? A. I think not.

Q. He did read a statement? A. As I recall he read a 
statement, and I believe passed that statement over to me 
as a part of the record of the meeting, and as I recall it 
was not a signed statement at the time. And again as I 
recall, I do not believe it was labeled as a minority report; 
I may not be correct in that statement.

Q. Well, was any motion made that the minority report 
be adopted rather than the majority report? A. No, sir.

—284—
Q. And the majority report of the committee was adopted 

by a vote of four to two? A. Yes, sir.
Q, The salary schedules of teachers who have the same 

certificate, is that salary the same throughout the entire 
school system, where you have the same certificate, the 
same experience? A. Yes, the same training and experi­
ence, then the salary is uniform.

Q. Uniform throughout the system? A. Yes, sir.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Cross



283a

Q. And the supplement is also uniform? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now the principal, is the principal’s salary based 

on the number of students in that particular school? A. 
It’s based largely upon the number of teachers, the way 
the State salary schedule is set up; and with that State 
salary schedule in mind, we pay a lump sum annually to 
the principal for what we consider adequate compensation 
for that particular job.

Q. And that is uniform throughout the system? A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. Both as to a Negro principal and a white principal? 
A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Spears: That is all, Your Honor.
—285—

Redirect Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Superintendent, you pay your salaries on an ob­
jective basis and it’s based on two tangible factors, ratings 
and experience; is that right? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have to act on these intangibles but you some­
times make mistakes, like the teacher you had to discharge; 
right? A. Yes, sir.

Q. The final analysis of how much money you give a 
teacher is on the objective standings? A. That’s correct. 
This teacher, by the way, had excellent recommendations, 
which led us to be believe that maybe somebody was get­
ting rid of the teacher.

Q. Now just so the exhibit will be correct, Exhibit 65-3, 
the minutes of August 30th, you say that the minutes should 
be corrected to indicate that someone else voted against the 
motion? A. Yes, sir.

Lew W. Hcinnen—for Plaintiffs—■Redirect



284a

Mr. Nabrit: Can we do that on the copy, Your 
Honor, so that the actual minutes will be correct?

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Who was it that voted against it? A. Mr. Sessoms, 
as I recall.

Q. Would it be correct to say that Doctor Speigner and 
Mr. Sessoms voted against the report? A. Yes, sir.

—286—
Q. Would you make that correction on the copy?
Now you agreed with one of Mr. Spears’ questions which 

included a statement that there was only one Negro who 
was willing to teach in a predominantly-white school. Isn’t 
it a fact that as far as you know from that questionnaire 
there are 161 who were equally willing to teach in any 
school?

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

Mr. Jarvis: I think that the report speaks for 
itself.

The Court: Well, I understand that. I under­
stood his question—you have brought that out be­
fore—that there are 160 who said they would be 
willing to teach at any of those, predominantly white 
or integrated or any of the schools.

Mr. Nabrit: One final question. This is some­
thing I neglected to go into on direct.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Has the Board adopted or committed itself to the 
free-choice policy for a long term or for any particular 
period of years, or has it considered going back to zones 
or has that been discussed or what?



285a

Mr. Jarvis: I object. That resolution is a part of 
the record. You have introduced it, and it states 
what the policy of the Board is. The Board has 
adopted a resolution stating what its policy is and 
I think it speaks for itself.

The Court: You mean this one year?
—287—

Mr. Jarvis: No, sir, for the future until such time 
as they may change it. That resolution was adopted 
June 9th, immediately following the decision of the 
Court of Appeals in this case. The resolution is in 
the record.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, I still want to continue my 
question. I want to know what his understanding is 
about the plan.

A. My opinion is that we will continue operating under the 
system that we are operating under now until that is 
changed.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Well, do you have any in.dica.tian whether there are 
plans to change it or not? A. That has been discussed in­
formally. I don’t know that any definitive action by the 
Board has been taken.

Q. What has been discussed informally, the idea that 
maybe you might go back to zones or you can’t do this free 
choice too long or what? A. Simply that this is only one 
way of doing this thing and that this could very well give 
way to some other practice in the near future.

Lew W. Hannen—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



286a

Beeross Examination by Mr. Spears:

Q. There has been no report or any resolution adopted 
to change the present freedom of choice in Durham city

- 2 8 8 -
schools, has there, Mr. Hannen'! A. That’s correct.

Q. And it’s working satisfactorily, isn’t it? A. Well, we 
have been able to accommodate all of the pupils in school 
in the situation requested by their parents.

Mr. Spears: All right, that’s all.

(Witness excused.)

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Elliott B. Palmer was called as a witness on behalf of 
the Plaintiffs and, being first duly sworn, was examined 
and testified on his oath as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Mr. Palmer, state your name and address. A. My 
name is Elliott B. Palmer. I live in Raleigh, North Caro­
lina.

Q. What is your present employment? A. I am the 
Executive Secretary of the North Carolina Teachers As­
sociation.

Q. Mr. Palmer, give us a brief resume of your back­
ground and education. A. I went to the public schools of 
Durham City. I graduated with a B.A. Degree at North 
Carolina College in Durham in Social Science and Eco­
nomics. I graduated from the North Carolina College in

— 289—
Durham with a M.A. Degree in Administrative Education



287a

Elliott B. Palmer—-for Plaintiffs—Direct

and Economics, and did further study at Duke University 
at Durham.

Q. And what has been your employment background? 
A. I worked in the junior high and senior high schools in 
Durham County as a teacher. I worked as principal of 
the Lakeview Elementary School in Durham County; four 
years as a teacher, four and a half years as a principal, 
and one year present employment.

Q. What are your duties in your present employment? 
A. Working in the scope of the teaching profession in 
North Carolina, Negro teachers in particular, who work 
from kindergarten through the higher education, a pro­
gram of professional growth and development, protection 
of rights of the teaching members.

Q. In your job do you come in contact with teachers, 
Negro teachers particularly, around the State; and what 
access do you have— Do you consider their complaints 
and their problems and find out about them? A. Yes. And 
my duty is particularly any time a complaint of unethical 
or unprofessional practice is entered by a teacher, it’s my 
job to inquire into the situation and make recommendations 
to the Board of Directors.

Q. Have you had specific inquiries relating to the deseg­
regation process?

—290—
Mr. Spears: Objection.
The Court: Overruled, if he has had any inquiries. 

A. I have had many.

By Mr. Nalbrit:

Q. Would you describe—describe your job in connection 
with what has happened?



Mr. Spears: Objection.
Mr. Jarvis: Objection, Tour Honor. I don’t know 

how this could possibly lead to any competent evi­
dence.

The Court: Well, I don’t either, but let him de­
scribe his work. Objection overruled.

A. With regards to the desegregation of schools, we have 
had several problems that have been conveyed to my office 
and we have made inquiries into. Among these complaints 
we have had some systems where a school where Negro pu­
pils who have been previously going to all-Negro schools 
being reassigned to white schools. In this instance when 
the Negro pupils are taken into the white schools where 
they have segregated faculties, because of the loss of the 
Negro-pupil population in the previously-Negro school 
there has been a loss of teacher jobs for the Negro teachers.

In other systems we have had complaints about teachers 
who have been harassed in their community because pupils 
requesting assignment, sometimes their own children, some­
times children of other parents, who then complain to the 
teachers who in turn complain to us for assistance.

—291—
The Court: Now wait just a minute. What’s the 

relevancy of this to this Durham case? The plain­
tiffs’ own evidence is that there has been no such 
here.

Mr. Nabrit: Well, the question was directed to 
the witness as to his opportunity for knowing about 
teacher attitudes in the State and his opportunity 
for contacting teachers and what he knows about 
teachers. This was a prelude to the next question. 
Let me ask the next question; I ’ll ask him that.

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Direct



289a

The Court: Well, this is hearsay in the record. 
I wanted to give him all sort of latitude, but I de­
clare, for somebody seeing this record, that it is so 
totally crammed full of incompetent evidence—-I’m 
trying to be just as fair as I know how and give you 
all the latitude, but I don’t see the relevancy or the 
competency of it. But you go ahead.

By Mr. Nabrit;

Q. Mr. Palmer, do you have an opinion with respect to 
the relationship between faculty segregation and the free- 
dom-of-ehoice system—

Mr. Jarvis: Object, Your Honor. I don’t know 
how this witness is qualified—

The Court: Well, he hasn’t finished asking the 
question; I don’t know what the question is. I ’ll 
have to understand it. He was still talking. Wait 
until he finishes his question and then we can un­
derstand it and object.

- 2 9 2 -
Go ahead and restate your question again and 

finish the question.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. My question was whether or not you have an opinion 
about the relationship between faculty segregation and the 
operation of the freedom-of-choice desegregation plan. 
Have you had an opportunity to observe them and do you 
have an opinion with respect to it!

Elliott B. Palmer—-for Plaintiffs—Direct

Mr. Jarvis: Objection.



290a

The Court: He asked if he had an opinion. Objec­
tion overruled.

Mr. Jarvis: Your Honor, I don’t know if he’s 
qualified to give an opinion. He hasn’t shown that 
he’s had any opportunity to observe.

The Court: Well, all he’s asked him so far is if 
he has an opinion.

Mr. Jarvis: All right, sir. I ’ll withdraw my 
objection.

The Court: All right. Do you have an opinion?
The Witness: Yes, sir.

A. Freedom of—

Mr. Jarvis: I object to his stating what his opin­
ion is.

The Court: Well, this is along the line of some 
other evidence that’s already in. I don’t think it

- 2 9 3 -
helps much, but go ahead. Objection overruled. You 
can cross-examine him on it.

A. My opinion on the relationship of faculty segregation 
and the freedom-of-choice plan is based on one of the rea­
sons that the Board of Directors for the group by which I 
am employed took a serious look at the problem here in Dur­
ham City. If a sufficient number of pupils exercise the free­
dom-of-choice plan and are admitted to enter the previously 
all-white school and no provision is made for the faculty to 
be desegregated, the question inevitably will come: What 

i will happen to the Negro teachers when they have lost the 
1 pupils in the integrated school T This pattern has been evi- 
\ denced all over our State as to what happens in the final 
\analysis: Negro teachers lose their jobs.

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Direct



291a

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Direct 

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Now how does that problem affect the operation of the 
free-choice plan in the communities you have observed? A. 
Many Negro teachers then, in order to protect their employ­
ment, have encouraged the students to not request reassign­
ment to the previously all-white schools.

The Court: Do you know of an instance where that 
has occurred in the Durham school system that you 
could give us specifically the name, place, date, the 
teacher involved?

The Witness: I would not be in a position to do
—294—

that.
The Court: I’ll sustain the objection.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. Do you have an opinion with respect to the willingness 
of Negro teachers, members of your association, the associ­
ation by which you are employed, to work on a desegregated 
faculty—on a desegregated faculty basis! A. I have not 
made a sample study, but in traveling throughout the state 
and talking with Negro teachers, they are willing to work 
in an integrated program but they expressed reservations 
as to whether or not their expressing a desire to work in an 
integrated program will result in economic flashbacks. For 
example, some teachers have stated that they admit they 
will teach in a white school; if asked to teach in a white 
school, it may not be the sort of attitude the administration 
would be expecting of them. And with this one-year con­
tract, they may find their jobs in jeopardy.



292a

The Court: Do you know of any instance where 
that has happened in the Durham city system?

The Witness: That I ’m not at liberty to say. 
The Court: What?
The Witness: That I ’m not at liberty to say.
The Court: Well, you are at liberty to say it if 

you are going to testify here.
The Witness: For the same reason, sir.

By Mr. Nabrit:

Q. The question is do you know; the question is : Do you
—2 9 5 -

know of any such facts? A. No, I can’t admit to that.
Q. You weren’t trying to keep anything from the Judge? 

A. No. No.
Q. The last thing you mentioned was the one-year con­

tract. Explain how that works briefly. A. North Caro­
lina’s public school system issues a contract to its personnel 
for the period of one year’s service. At the end of that 
period contracts are reissued to those who are desired to be 
kept and not issued to those who are not desired to be kept. 

Q. Is there any tenure? A. No.

Mr. Nabrit: That’s all.

Cross Examination by Mr. Jarvis:

Q. Your concern, Mr. Palmer, and your interest in this 
matter is the effect on the teachers of an integrated or 
freedom-of-choice system, is that correct? That’s your in­
terest and that has been the face of the matter that you have 
studied? A. My work deals with the employment of the 
teacher. My interest, of course, is on the effect on the Negro 
student and teacher, of course.

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Cross



293a

Elliott B. Palmer—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Q. But you are the Executive Secretary of the North 
Carolina Teachers Association, and it was your Assoeia-

—296—
tion which asked to intervene in this matter for the protec­
tion of rights of the teachers, is that correct? A. Of the 
Negro student and teacher. We asked for it on the basis of 
teachers, yes.

Mr. Jarvis: I have no further questions.
The Court: All right, come down, sir.
(Witness excused.)

Mr. Nabrit: I think I am ready to rest, Your 
Honor. May I have a moment?

The Court: Well, if you think you are, maybe 
these gentlemen will want to confer to see what evi­
dence they have. We’ll take a very brief recess.

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
The Court: Anything further for the plaintiffs? 
Mr. Nabrit: No, Your Honor. The plaintiff rests. 
Mr. Jarvis: The defendant rests also, Your Honor.



294a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-2

SPECIAL MEETING

Durham City Board or Education 

July 2, 1965

A special meeting of the Durham City Board of Educa­
tion was held Friday evening, July 2, 1965, at seven-thirty 
o’clock, in the Board of Education room in the Fuller 
School building. Members present included H. A. Rhine- 
hart, chairman; Dr. John Glasson, George R. Parks, Carlie
B. Sessoms, and Dr. Theodore R. Speigner. Mrs. Annie 
Laurie Bugg was not present as she was out of the city. 
Also attending the meeting were Mr. Marshall T. Spears, 
attorney for the Board, Mr. Robert L. Foust, executive 
director of Operation Breakthrough, Miss Ethel G. Reade, 
educational director of Project Head Start, Mr. Herman
C. Hollander, director of secondary instruction, and Mr. 
Leonard E. Davis, local director of Project Head Start. 
The meeting was called to take action on a demand from 
the Office of Economic Opportunity, received by the super­
intendent at 3:40 p. m. today, that the teaching staff for 
Project Head Start be integregated as a definite require­
ment for approval of the Project.

On motion by Mr. Sessoms, seconded by Dr. Glasson, 
the Board waived written notice of the meeting, and de­
clared a special meeting to be in session.

A motion was made by Mr. Parks, seconded by Mr. 
Rhinehart, that the proposed Head Start program be car­
ried out as understood by the Board in the application 
submitted and the contract signed.

Following a very lengthy discussion, a substitute motion 
was made by Mr. Sessoms and seconded by Dr. Speigner



295a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-2

that a white teacher be transferred from Edgemont School 
to East End School, and a Negro teacher be transferred 
from East End School to Edgemont School, and a white 
teacher’s aide from Holloway Street School be interchanged 
with a Negro aide from one of the predominantly Negro 
schools in order to comply with a statement by Mr. James 
Heller from the Office of Economic Opportunity that this 
arrangement would be the minimum of faculty integrega- 
tion required by the OTEcTof Economic Opportunity. The 
motion carried.

Mr. Rhinehart, Mr. Foust and Mr. Hannen conferred 
with Mr. Heller by telephone and reported the minimum 
requirements to the Board prior to a vote on the motion.

The meeting adjourned at 9 :45 p. m.

/ s /  H. A. Rhinehart 
H. A. R hinehart, 
Chairman

/s /  Lew W. Hannen 
Lew W. Hannen, 
Secretary

lrl



296a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65-9A

(See Opposite)



X
E

R
O

'..

ittdwsm o i <priiulti/ SCHOOLS CLASSROOM. TEACHLH DISTRIBUTION -  l$6h-6$ \ 6 r -7  '
L — ....J.. .. . ( , , ...... .........

i
pL- J5 S k ^ S h

05 150 D1 E6 AO A1 A 2 A3 Ait a5 A6 A7 AS A. 9 A1G A l l A12 03 oa o5 C-6 G7 G8 G9 QIC o n 012 0 1 3 6 TOTAL ^

Durham Hinh 1 6 11 5 1 2 1 2 2 13 1 2 2 2 2 19 71 .

Broaden Jr* 3 3 2 1 ]. 1 1 8 1 ___l ____1 28 _
Carr Jr® 2 1 5 2 k 1 1 _ 1 _ 2 7 37 -

a Iton  J r . 1 2 3 2 1 2 8 l 1 1 1 ____ 1 26 „

C lub l l v d . h 2 1 1 1 8 i 1 3 2 2 __

Edf;cvnont 1 5 1 1 1 1 3 i 1 * 15 _
H ollow ay 1 7 1 2 2 2 1 3 19
Ir’k'UfOOd 3 h 1 ___L i 13

Morehead 2 1 1 2 _ L - — £ —1_ _ — i£—
II® Durham 1 1 1 1 1 8 1 Hi .
E. K. "-c'-.o 1 h 1 2 2 __ 2_ _______ 12—
X. R. Smith 5 a 3 1 1 6 20
Southside 1 l 1 1 1 *3 ___ 2. ____ — 10—

y»-M- r* 1 3 h 1 1 1 )- L_HLh ______ 15
Special Education 2 t'£

TOTAL WHITE 1 3 1 1 36 38 3h 16 6 12 7 6 3 3 5 2 92 r\c. i 2 3 5 2 3 2 3 " 36 325 _

H ills id e  Hirii 1 1 2 O 1 2 1 2 1 2 1. 11 1 i 1 Z 17
4

50 -
She'oard Jr.

— ~ •
1 1 1 2 2 " h i _ J L — L- _ _ 2 _ L l . ------ X 2C

L’hittcd Jr. 2 1 2 1 3 ] 1 _ 2 _ - U J 3 — L 2 __ 1 1 h3— —----- ---- - — -
l ? 1, 1 1 5 _ 1 _ _ 1 _ — 12. ____.— 25, -Burton

Crest St. 1 1 3, __ L . T ............9
Fast End 1 1 1 1 1 7 — JL ... 1.2 ..........25
Fayetteville St, 1 2

— f—r
1 1 5 — ]— T _ Z ------ 11X9—

Lyon Hark 1 — 1 . — L - — L . ___12. 2C

Pearson 1 1 ? 1 13 __1_ ___1 2 .32
Soaulding 1 2 1 1 ] _L _ — 1h _ 2 __ ___1_ f* .......— 21
Wa litown 1 a 3 , 8 ~

Special Education 1 — 2

TOTAL COLORED
.

3 3 8 8 10 9 h 9 6 a a a 70 1 i 1 a 5 l 2 6 3 5
1

l o t 27 9

TOTAL 1 3
1 . 1 1 .

39 111 h2 2 L 16 21 11 15 9 7 9 6 162 3 2 3 a 8 6 a 9 5 6 xaa 60k

TS ■ <0!
\



297a



298a

In the United States District Court 

For the Middle District op North Carolina 

Durham Division

Memorandum and Order Denying Intervention

[same title]

These cases were commenced in 1960. Numerous opin­
ions and orders have been entered by this Court, and the 
cases have been considered by the Court of Appeals on 
three occasions. The last decision of the Court of Appeals 
was on June 1,1965, at which time the cases were remanded 
for further proceedings. The Court had a conference with 
counsel for the plaintiffs and the defendant on July 22, 
1965, at which time the cases were set for a hearing on 
September 23, 1965, on all pending issues, one being the 
issue relating to the employment and assignment of teach­
ers and other school personnel.

On September 20, 1965, the North Carolina Teachers 
Association filed a written motion for an order permitting 
it to intervene as a party plaintiff in these cases and file 
a complaint in intervention. The certificate of service in­
dicates that copies of the motion papers were served on 
counsel for the defendant by mail on September 17, 1965. 
The applicant for intervention alleges that it is a profes­
sional teachers association, organized as a private, non­
profit, membership corporation, and that most of its mem­
bership is composed of Negro teachers teaching in public 
schools of North Carolina, including the Durham City 
School System. It is contended that the intervention should



299a

be permitted on the grounds that (1) the applicant and 
its members are members of the class who are or might 
be affected by the relief prayed for by the original plain­
tiffs, (2) the applicant and its members have a substantial 
interest in the subject matter of the action, (3) the ap­
plicant and its members may be bound by any judgment 
relating to the desegregation of pupils and teachers, (4) 
the claims of the applicant and that of the original plain­
tiffs present common questions of law and fact, and (5) 
the intervention will not to any extent delay or prejudice 
the adjudication of the rights of the original parties who 
are represented by the same counsel.

The applicant for intervention is represented by the 
same counsel as the original plaintiffs. The applicant and 
its attorney have known since the litigation was first started 
back in 1960 that the question relating to the employment 
and assignment of teachers and other school personnel 
in the Durham School System was one of the issues being 
litigated in these cases, and have known since July 22, 
1965, that the issue was one of the issues set for trial 
on September 23, 1965. The defendant has not filed a 
response to the motion to intervene and, indeed, under 
Local Rule 21(g) has 20 days after service of motion to 
file its response. This 20-day period is, of course, long 
after the case is set for trial. If the complaint in inter­
vention should be allowed, the defendant would have a 
reasonable time within which to file its answer, and this 
again would delay the trial scheduled for September 23, 
1965.

The right of intervention is controlled by Rule 24 of the 
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Broadly speaking, Rule 
24 treats two sorts of intervention. One is a matter of

Memorandum and Order Denying Intervention



300a

right, and the other is permissive. Intervention as a mat­
ter of right is allowed if (1) a Federal statute confers an 
unconditional right to intervene, (2) the applicant may 
be bound by the judgment and his interest is or may be 
inadequately represented by existing parties, or (3) the 
applicant may be adversely affected by a disposition of 
property in the custody of the court. It is not contended 
that there is a Federal statute conferring an unconditional 
right on the applicant to intervene, or that there is any 
property in the custody of the court for distribution. 
Neither is there any question about the present parties 
being inadequately represented because they are repre­
sented by the same counsel who represent the applicant for 
intervention. Not being a party to the action, the rights 
of the intervenor, if any they be, could not possibly be 
affected by any judgment entered in favor of or against 
the original plaintiffs in these actions. Intervention is 
permissive when a statute of the United States confers a 
conditional right to intervene, or where the claim of the 
applicant and the main action have common questions of 
law and fact. It is not claimed that any statute confers a 
conditional right to intervene, and if intervention is per­
mitted, it must be on the basis that the applicant’s claim 
and the main action have common questions of law and fact. 
If the questions of law and fact are identical, it is diffi­
cult to perceive, particularly when represented by the same 
counsel, why intervention is desired. I f the applicant for 
intervention has superior rights or claims to those of the 
original parties, then new questions of law and fact are 
introduced into the litigation, which will necessarily delay 
the trial. Counsel for the applicant stated that in no 
event did they desire a delay in the trial.

Memorandum and Order Denying Intervention



301a

And finally, for intervention, either as a matter of right 
or permissive, to be allowed, the application must be 
“timely” made. It is difficult to understand how the appli­
cant for intervention can seriously contend that the ap­
plication has been timely filed, particularly in view of the 
history of the litigation, including the fact that on July 22, 
1965, the cases were set for trial on all pending issues on 
September 23, 1965, and the further fact that the original 
plaintiffs and the applicant for intervention are repre­
sented by the same counsel. Clearly, by standing mute 
until September 17, 1965, less than a week before the trial, 
the application cannot be said to have been timely made.

The Court, in the exercise of its discretion, concludes 
that motion to intervene should be denied. Becton v. 
Greene County Board of Education (E.D., N.C.), 32 F.R.I). 
2201 (1963); Securities and Exchange Commission v. Bloom­
berg, 1 Cir., 299 F. 2d 315 (1962); Tessyman v. Fisher, 
9 Cir., 231 F. 2d 583 (1955); Kelly v. Pascal System, Inc., 
(E.D., Ky.), 183 F. Supp. 775 (1960).

O R D E R

For the reasons stated, I t I s Ordered that the motion of 
the applicant, the North Carolina Teachers Association, to 
intervene as a party plaintiff in these cases, and to file a 
complaint in intervention, be, and same hereby is, denied.

/s /  Edwin M. Stanley 
United States District Judge

Memorandum and Order Denying Intervention

Entered as of 
September 23, 1965.



302a

To the Honorable Edwin M. Stanley, Chief Judge, 
United States District Court

For the Middle District oe North Carolina:

The Durham City Board of Education, defendant in the 
above entitled actions, pursuant to a Memorandum Order 
entered on September 24, 1965, respectfully submits to the 
Court the following “Plan for Desegregation of the Dur­
ham City Schools” to govern assignments and enrollments 
of pupils in the Durham City Administrative School Unit 
during the 1966-67 and subsequent school years:

Permanent Plan oe Desegregation 
Durham City Administrative School Unit

City of Durham, Durham County, North Carolina

I.

A bolition oe Zones and Feeder System oe A ssignments

Effective as of June 10, 1965, all attendance zones pre­
viously adopted for elementary and junior high schools 
in the Durham City Administrative School Unit and the 
feeder system of assignments to high schools were abol­
ished, and effective with the 1965-66 school year, the 
Durham City Board of Education established one general 
school district within the Durham City Administrative 
School Unit and opened enrollment to all students at all 
schools within the district without regard to race, color, 
religion or national origin.

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



303a

II.

A nnual Freedom of Choice of Schools

The Durham City Board of Education has adopted a 
policy of complete freedom of choice to be offered an­
nually to all pupils in all grades of all schools without 
regard to race, color, religion or national origin.

The parents, guardians, or persons acting as parents 
(hereinafter referred to as “parents” ) of each pupil eligible 
to attend the schools of the Durham City Administrative 
School Unit shall have the right and responsibility to select 
the school to be attended by their child, teaching the grade 
in which said child is entitled to be enrolled, in accordance 
with the following practices and procedures.

Teachers, principals and other school personnel are not 
permitted to advise, recommend or otherwise influence 
which choice is made, and they are not permitted to favor 
or penalize children because of choices.

III.

Pupils Entering First Grade

Parents of any child entering the Durham City Schools 
for the first time at the first grade level shall register 
such child in the school desired by presenting such child 
at the pre-school registration to be held at each elementary 
school on scheduled dates which will be publicly announced 
annually. In advance of the time for pre-school registra­
tions each school year, the Board will announce through 
local newspapers of general circulation and other news 
media a schedule of times and places for pre-school regis­
trations in all schools, together with appropriate instruc­
tions for registration of first grade pupils at the school of

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



304a

the parents’ choice. No first grade pupils will be registered 
prior to the dates set for pre-school registration.

When registering first grade pupils, parents will he re­
quired to complete an “Application for Assignment” form 
(a copy of which is attached hereto marked Exhibit “A ” ). 
The child may be registered at any elementary school in 
the school system, and the choice may be for that school 
or for any other elementary school in the system. Parents 
who do not request assignment for their child at the pre­
school registration may register their child at the school of 
their choice by filing an Application for Assignment at 
any time after such pre-school registration or by present­
ing such child at such school on the opening day of the 
school year and completing an “Application for Assign­
ment” form at that time.

Assignments of children will be made in accordance with 
the highest preferred school specified in such applications 
until the maximum capacity per classroom has been at­
tained at each school. If none of the designated choices 
for a child can be granted, the parents of such child will 
be notified and required to make another choice from 
among all other schools in the system where space is 
available.

Written notice of assignments will be mailed to parents 
of first grade pupils filing “Applications for Assignment” 
within fifteen (15) days after the close of the preceding 
school year or within fifteen (15) days after receipt of 
the applications, whichever last occurs.

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



305a

IV.

Pupils Promoted to Junior High School and 
Senior High School

Pupils who will complete the course of instruction in an 
elementary school and will be promoted to junior high 
school for the following school year, and pupils who will 
complete the course of instruction in a junior high school 
and will be promoted to senior high school for the follow­
ing school year shall be furnished an “Application for 
Assignment” form (Exhibit “A ” ) together with appro­
priate written instructions, to be delivered to their parents 
with their report card for the next to last six-weeks period. 
Additional forms and written instructions wTill be readily 
available to parents, students and the general public in 
the school offices during regular business hours.

Parents will be instructed to designate, in order of pref­
erence, by first, second and third choice, the school to be 
attended by their child during the following school year. 
The completed application form must be delivered to the 
child’s teacher by a date therein stated, which date shall 
be not less than fifteen (15) days from the date of delivery 
to the pupil. Applications will be honored on the basis 
of the order in which such forms are returned, for the 
highest preferred school specified in such forms offering 
the grade in w7hich the child is eligible to be enrolled and 
having the capacity to accommodate him. If none of the 
designated choices can be granted, the parents of such 
child will be notified and required to make another choice 
from among all other schools in the system serving his 
grade level where space is available.

As to each “Application for Assignment” completed and 
filed within the designated period, the Board of Education

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



306a

will enter the final assignment of such pupil on his final 
report card and mail the same to his parents not later 
than fifteen (15) days after the last day of the school year. 
Notice of final assignments of all other pupils whose 
parents have completed and filed “Applications for Re- 
Assignment” will be mailed to such parents not later than 
fifteen (15) days after the return of such applications.

Parents who do not return the completed “Application 
for Assignment” form within the designated time will be 
required to file an “Application for Assignment” form 
when their child is presented for enrollment. Any pupil 
who presents himself for enrollment at a particular school 
on or after the opening day of the school year, and no 
application form has been obtained from his parents, will 
be enrolled at such school providing it teaches the grade 
in which he is eligible to be enrolled and has the capacity 
to accommodate him.

In the event none of the preferences specified by a parent 
can be granted by reason of overcrowding, or if an “Ap­
plication for Assignment” form cannot be obtained from 
the parents of any child who cannot be enrolled at the 
school where he presents himself for enrollment at the 
opening of school, such child will be assigned to the school 
nearest his residence teaching the grade in which he is 
eligible to be enrolled and having capacity to accommo­
date him, without regard to race, color, religion or na­
tional origin.

V.

Pupils Not Promoted From Highest Grade in 
Elementary and Junior High Schools

Pupils who are presently enrolled in the highest grade 
at any elementary or junior high school and who are not

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



307a

promoted to the next highest grade for the following 
school year will be assigned to the school where they are 
presently enrolled. Notice of such assignments shall be 
entered on the pupils’ final report cards, which shall be 
mailed to parents not later than fifteen (15) days after 
the last day of the school year.

Parents of such pupils will be mailed an “Application 
for Re-Assignment” form (a copy of 'which is attached 
hereto marked Exhibit “B” ) with appropriate written in­
structions which will be enclosed with each pupil’s final 
report card and notice of assignment. Additional forms 
and written instructions will be readily available to parents, 
students and the general public in the school offices during 
regular business hours.

Parents of such pupils shall have the unqualified right 
to obtain the transfer of their child from the school to 
which assigned to another school of their choice by com­
pleting and mailing or delivering the “Application for 
Re-Assignment” form to the office of the Superintendent 
of City Schools by a date therein stated, which date shall 
be not less than fifteen (15) days from the date the final 
report card was mailed. The completed form shall desig­
nate, in order of preference, by first, second and third 
choice the school to which transfer is desired for the 
following year.

Applications for Re-Assignment will be granted on the 
basis of the order in which such completed forms are 
retuxmed, for the highest preferred school specified in such 
applications teaching the grade in wdiich such child is 
eligible to be enrolled and having the capacity to accommo­
date him. If none of the designated choices can be granted, 
the parents of such child will be notified and required to

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



308a

make another choice from among all other schools in the 
system serving his grade level where space is available.

Written notice of final assignments will be mailed to 
the parents of all such children requesting re-assignment 
not later than thirty (30) days prior to the beginning of 
school.

VI.
Pupils W ho Have Not Completed All Gbades at 

School A ttended

Pupils who are eligible to be enrolled for the following 
school year in a grade taught at the school presently at­
tended will be assigned to the school where they are pres­
ently enrolled. Written notice of such assignments for 
the following school year shall be given to parents of each 
such pupil on or with his report card for the next to last 
six-weeks period of each school year. At the same time 
the parents of each pupil will be furnished an “Applica­
tion for Re-Assignment” form (Exhibit “B” ), together 
with appropriate written instructions.

Parents of such pupils shall have the unqualified right 
to obtain the transfer of their child from the school to 
which assigned to another school of their choice by com­
pleting and returning the “Application for Re-Assignment” 
form to their child’s homeroom teacher, or to the office of 
the Superintendent of City Schools, by a date therein 
stated, which shall be not less than twenty (20) days from 
the date the report cards and notice of assignment are 
issued. The completed form shall designate, in order of 
preference, by first, second and third choice the school to 
which transfer is desired for the following year.

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



309a

Applications for Ee-Assignment will be granted on the 
basis of the order in which such completed forms are re­
turned, for the highest preferred school specified in such 
applications" teaching the grade in which such child is 
eligible to be enrolled and having the capacity to accommo­
date him. If none of the designated choices can be granted, 
the parents of any such child will be notified and required 
to make another choice from among all other schools in 
the system serving his grade level where space is available.

The Board of Education will enter the final assignments 
of all such pupils on the pupils’ final report cards, which 
shall be mailed to parents not later than fifteen (15) days 
after the last day of the school year.

VII.

Pupils E ntering Upper Grades por First Time

Parents of any child entering the schools of this Ad­
ministrative School Unit for the first time at any grade 
level above the first grade may register such child in the 
school of their choice, teaching the grade in which the 
pupil is eligible to be enrolled, by completing and filing 
an “Application for Assignment” form (Exhibit “A ” ). 
Such forms will be available during regular business hours 
at the various school offices and at the office of the Super­
intendent of City Schools on and after the date report cards 
for the next to last six-weeks period have been issued to 
students enrolled for the school year next preceding such 
application.

Applications from parents of such children shall be re­
turned to the office of the Superintendent of City Schools 
and will be processed and honored, and assignments made

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



310a

therefrom, in accordance with the procedures outlined in 
paragraph IV.

Written notice of final assignments will be mailed to 
the parents of all such children requesting assignments 
not later than thirty (30) days prior to the beginning of 
school or fifteen (15) days after receipt of Application 
for Assignment, whichever date last occurs.

VIII.
Pupils Changing Residence Aetee A ssignment

Parents of children moving their residence within the 
Durham City Administrative School Unit after assign­
ments have been made may obtain the transfer of their 
child from the school to which assigned to another school 
of their choice by completing and mailing or delivering 
an “Application for Re-Assignment” form (Exhibit “B” ) 
to the office of the Superintendent of City Schools. Such 
completed forms shall designate, in order of preference, 
by first, second and third choice the school to which transfer 
is desired.

Applications for Re-Assignment by reason of change of 
residence will be granted on the basis of the order in which 
such applications are received, for the highest preferred 
school specified in such applications teaching the grade in 
which such child is eligible to be enrolled and having the 
capacity to accommodate him. If none of the designated 
choices can be granted, the parents of such child will be 
notified and required to make another choice from among 
all other schools in the system serving his grade level where 
space is available.

Written notice of final assignments will be mailed to the 
parents of all such children requesting re-assignment not

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



311a

later than thirty (30) days prior to the beginning of school 
or fifteen (15) days after receipt of Application for Re- 
Assignment, whichever date last occurs.

IX.

N o n - R e s i d e n t  A t t e n d a n c e

Pupils not residing in the Durham City Administrative 
School Unit may be permitted to attend public schools of 
this system only if the enrollment of any such pupil does 
not result in the denial of a resident pupil’s preference of 
assignment.

X.

S p e c i a l  E d u c a t i o n  C l a s s e s

The Board of Education may, consistent with sound edu­
cational criteria and practices and in a non-discriminatory 
manner, assign pupils to special classes for mentally re­
tarded and talented children with consent of their parents, 
and without regard to race, color, religion or national 
origin.

XI.

C a p a c i t y  a n d  O v e r c r o w d in g

The “capacity” of each school and each classroom shall 
be determined in accordance with the maximum capacity 
per classroom permitted under the minimum standards for 
accreditation established by the North Carolina State 
Department of Public Instruction and the Southern Asso­
ciation of Colleges and Schools.

Applications for Assignment and Re-Assignment will be 
honored on a first come, first serve basis, although excep­
tions may be made in some instances in a non-diserimina-

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



312a

tory manner. The exceptions herein referred to will be 
made where necessary to assure that any pupil wishing to 
attend a school with substantial numbers of the other race 
has an unequivocal and realizable right to do so.

XII.

T b a n s p o b t a t i o n

The Durham City Board of Education has not in the past 
and does not presently provide transportation for any 
pupils attending school in this Administrative School Unit. 
In the event that school transportation is subsequently pro­
vided for any pupils in this system, for any purpose, it will 
be provided on an equal basis without segregation or other 
discrimination because of race, color, religion or national 
origin.

XIII.

S e b v ic e s , F a c i l i t i e s , A c t i v i t i e s  a n d  P b o g e a m s

There shall be no discrimination based on race, color, re­
ligion or national origin with respect to any services, facili­
ties, activities and programs sponsored by or affiliated with 
the schools of the Durham City Administrative School 
Unit.

XIV.

N o t i c e  a n d  P u b l i c i t y

Upon the approval of this Plan by the United States 
District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina, 
copies of this Plan, including forms of the “Application 
for Assignment” and “Application for Re-Assignment” and 
instructions to parents, will be made freely available to

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



313a

all persons at the office of the Superintendent of City 
Schools, and will be given to all television and radio sta­
tions and all newspapers serving this area. News media 
wdl be asked to give conspicuous publication to the Plan, 
including a description of all its provisions. If the Plan 
does not receive prominent and complete newspaper cov­
erage, appropriate advertisements will be conspicuously 
placed in the newspapers serving this area. The adver­
tisements or other newspaper coverage will set forth the 
text of the Plan, the application forms and the instructions 
to parents. Individual notice and instructions to parents 
will be delivered to the parents of all pupils attending the 
schools of this Administrative School Unit, as provided in 
the Plan.

In addition, meetings and conferences will he called to 
inform all school system staff members of, and to prepare 
them for, the school desegregation process. Similar meet­
ings will he held to inform Parent-Teacher Associations 
and other local community organizations of the details of 
the Plan, to prepare them for the changes that will take 
place effective with the 1966-67 and subsequent school 
years.

Annually at least three (3) weeks before the final dates 
set for filing Applications for Assignment, conspicuous 
notice will again be prominently placed in the newspapers 
serving this area for at least three (3) consecutive weeks 
immediately preceding said dates. In addition, copies of 
the Plan, including the instructions to parents and appli­
cation forms, will be freely made available at all times to 
any person at the Superintendent’s office and at all schools 
during regular business hours.

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



314a

XV.

C o n t i n u i n g  A p p l i c a t i o n

This Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools, 
upon approval by the Court, will govern the assignment 
and enrollment of pupils in the Durham City Administra­
tive School Unit during the 1966-67 and subsequent school 
years, and shall remain in effect until such time as the 
Durham City Board of Education shall present and, with 
the approval of the Court, adopt some other Plan for the 
assignment and enrollment of pupils in this Administrative 
Unit.

XVI.

C e r t i f i c a t i o n

This Plan for Desegregation was duly adopted by the 
Durham City Board of Education at a meeting duly called 
and held on the thirteenth day of October, 1965.

Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools



315a

Plaintiffs, by their attorneys, respectfully submit to the 
Court the following response to the defendant’s permanent 
Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools 
adopted October 13, 1965.

1. In a Memorandum dictated September 24, 1965, the 
Court stated:

“ • . . that it was of the opinion and would so hold that 
the defendant Board was at liberty to continue in­
definitely the assignment and reassignment of pupils 
on a free-choice basis as outlined by the Court of Ap­
peals for this Circuit in the Richmond case handed 
down by the Court of Appeals on April 7, 1965, or in 
the decision in this case decided on June 1, 1965, or 
that the Board might adopt nongerrymandered school 
zones and boundaries and assign students in accord­
ance with such zones.”

The Memorandum directed the Board to file a plan not later 
than October 15, 1965, and directed that not later than 
October 25, 1965, plaintiffs “ advise the Court . . . wherein 
the plaintiffs contend that the proposed plan of the defen­
dant Board does not comply with either the freedom-of- 
choice plan referred to or the compact-school-zone plan. . . . 
If the plaintiffs’ counsel is of the opinion that the plan 
does comply, he will so advise the Court and the plan will 
then be approved.”

2. In accordance with the direction of the Court, plain­
tiffs have studied the plan filed by the defendant Board 
and hereby advise the Court that insofar as they are aware

Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendant’s Permanent
Plan of Desegregation



316a

the plan is consistent with the freedom-of-choice assign­
ments referred to by the Court of Appeals in the Richmond, 
Virginia school case decided April 7, 1965 (Bradley v. 
School Board of City of Richmond, 345 F.2d 310).

3. Plaintiffs, however, do not consent to or acquiesce in 
an order approving the Board’s plan and respectfully object 
thereto on the following grounds:

a. The issue of faculty segregation and the Board’s con­
tinuing practice of assigning teachers to schools on the 
basis of race, which has not yet been ruled upon by the 
Court, is vitally related to the adequacy of the plan for 
pupil assignments as an effective desegregation plan. Plain­
tiffs submit that the freedom-of-choice type of plan is in­
adequate to effect desegregation of the school system in the 
context of the continuing policy of placing teachers in 
schools on the basis of race in a segregated pattern.

b. In the context of this case, the freedom-of-choice plan 
is not adequate to disestablish the pattern of segregation 
in the Durham City schools because:

(i) the segregated pattern was deliberately created 
by the school authorities through a variety of compul­
sory pupil assignment methods based on race or color;

(ii) the defendant Board has a history of resistance 
to desegregation and has employed a variety of devices 
and stratagems to maintain segregation by compulsory 
assignment practices;

(iii) the Board’s previous actions and the Board’s 
continuing faculty segregation policy operate to dis­
courage pupils and parents from using the freedom-

Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendant’s Permanent
Plan of Desegregation



317a

of-choice plan to eliminate the existing segregated pat­
tern ;

(iv) the freedom-of-choice plan was adopted by the 
Board which had knowledge of the fact that the free 
choice system previously in effect in Durham has not 
resulted in the desegregation of a single class in any 
of the all-Negro schools in Durham, has knowledge of 
the fact that no white pupils have chosen to attend any 
of the schools with all-Negro faculties and student 
bodies, and by reason of this knowledge and experi­
ence has reason to believe that the free choice plan 
will not operate to actually desegregate any of the 
all-Negro schools in the system.

Respectfully submitted,

Jack Greenberg 
James M. Nabbed, III 
Debbick A. Bell, Jb.

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, N. Y. 10019

Conrad 0. Pearson 
M. Hugh Thompson 
W illiam A. Marsh, Jr.

203% East Chapel Hill Street 
Durham, North Carolina

F. B. McK issick 
209% West Main Street 

Durham, North Carolina
J. H. W heeler 

116 West Parrish Street 
Durham, North Carolina

Attorneys for Plaintiffs

Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendant’s Permanent
Plan of Desegregation



318a

Plaintiffs, by their attorneys, respectfully submit the 
following as their supplemental response to the defendant’s 
permanent plan of desegregation adopted October 13, 1965, 
and in opposition to the defendant’s proposed order ap­
proving the aforesaid plan.

Plaintiffs’ position is that the Court should reserve deci­
sion with respect to the defendant’s Plan until the issues 
relating to the defendant’s practice of allocating teachers 
to schools on a racial basis have been resolved. Plaintiffs 
reiterate their objection that the plan submitted is inade­
quate in that it fails to provide for an elimination of faculty 
assignments on a racial basis. The recent opinion of the 
United States Supreme Court in Bradley v. School Board 
of the City of Richmond, Va., 34 U.S. Law Week 3170, 
November 15, 1965, directly supports plaintiffs’ position.

The Court held in Bradley that the Court of Appeals 
erred in finally approving a free-choice plan without having 
considered the claim of Negro pupils and parents that the 
plan was inadequate because of “alleged” faculty segrega­
tion, and in not requiring a prompt evidentiary hearing on 
this matter. In this case, unlike the Richmond ease, faculty 
allocation on a racial basis has been conclusively established 
on a substantial uncontroverted evidentiary showing and 
is conceded. The Richmond school board contended in the 
Supreme Court that the slight evidence on this point was, 
in effect, stale and that in fact faculty segregation policies 
have been abandoned.

Thus, we submit that it would be error for the Court 
in this case to approve the plan in its present form without 
ruling on the merits of plaintiffs’ claim that the plan is

Plaintiffs’ Supplemental Response to Defendant’ s Per­
manent Plan o f Desegregation and Opposition to
Defendant’ s Proposed Order Approving the Plan



319a

inadequate because of faculty segregation. This involves 
no prolonged delay since the evidence has been adduced, 
briefs are due to be filed December 6, 1965, and plaintiffs 
are willing to submit the matter without further oral argu­
ment.

A piecemeal disposition of the case, by deciding part but 
not all of the issues, would be inefficient and possibly bur­
densome because it would raise the possibility that there 
would be separate appeals by one or both parties from the 
two separate orders dealing with a completely interrelated 
subject matter.

Furthermore, plaintiffs submit that the question for deci­
sion by the Court is not whether the proposed plan, ab­
stractly viewed, is “constitutional.” Rather, the question 
is whether the plan is “adequate” to eliminate the segre­
gated system created by the school authorities in the 
existing factual context. Plaintiffs have contended in their 
previously filed “Response” to the plan that experience 
with the free choice method in Durham to date demon­
strates that it will not eliminate effectively the segregated 
system, and that some affirmative steps to eliminate exist­
ing segregation must be required. We reiterate that view. 
However, if that contention be rejected by the Court, plain­
tiffs submit alternatively that any approval of the free 
choice method should be not only concurrent with a re­
quirement of prompt and effective faculty desegregation, 
but also temporary and conditional upon a future demon­
stration by the school board that the plan in its actual

Plaintiffs’ Supplemental Response to Defendant’s Per­
manent Plan of Desegregation and Opposition to

Defendant’s Proposed Order Approving the Plan



320a

operation is effective to accomplish the objective of school

Plaintiffs’ Supplemental Response to Defendant’s Per­
manent Plan of Desegregation and Opposition to

Defendant’s Proposed Order Approving the Plan

desegregation.

Respectfully submitted,

Jack Greenberg 
James M. Nabrit, III 
Derrick A. Bell, Jr.

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, N. Y. 10019

Conrad C. Pearson 
M. Hugh Thompson 
W illiam A. Marsh, Jr.

203% East Chapel Hill Street 
Durham, North Carolina

F. B. McK issick 
209% West Main Street 

Durham, North Carolina
J. H. W heeler 

116 West Parrish Street 
Durham, North Carolina

Attorneys for Plaintiffs



321a

Stanley, Chief Judge.

This is another chapter in these consolidated cases in­
volving the desegregation of the public schools of Durham, 
North Carolina. The actions were commenced in 1960. For­
mal opinions have been rendered by this Court on two 
previous occasions,1 and the cases have been reviewed three 
times by the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.2

Following the last remand by the Court of Appeals,3 
counsel for the parties, on July 16, 1965, presented to the 
Court a consent order governing the assignment and re­
assignment of pupils in the Durham School System for the
1965- 1966 school year.

At a conference with counsel on July 22, 1965, schedules 
were fixed for the parties to further express themselves 
with respect to (1) a constitutionally acceptable plan gov­
erning the enrollment and assignment of pupils for the
1966- 1967 and subsequent school years, (2) the elimination 
of discrimination in the employment and assignment of 
teachers and administrative personnel, and (3) the reno­
vation, enlargement or construction of school facilities 
designed to perpetuate, maintain, or support segregation. 
All unresolved issues were scheduled for trial on Septem­
ber 23, 1965.

Findings o f Fact, Conclusions o f Law, and Opinion

1 Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education, 196 F. Supp. 71 (M.D. 
N.C., 1961) ; Wheeler v. Durham City Board o f Education, 210 F. Supp 
839 (M.D. N.C., 1962).

2 Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education, 4 Cir., 309 F. 2d 630 
(1962); Wheeler v. Durham City Board o f Education, 4 Cir., 326 F. 2d 
759 (1964); Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education, 4 Cir., 346 
F. 2d 768 (1965).

3 Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education, 4 Cir., 346 F. 2d 768 
(1965).



3 2 2 a

At the opening of the trial on September 23, 1965, the 
Court was advised that the defendant on September 13, 
1965, had filed a detailed report with respect to its contem­
plated capital improvement program for the year ending 
June 30, 1966, including its reasons for the enlargement of 
particular schools, the selection of new school sites and the 
construction of new school buildings. The plan set out in 
detail the current status of all buildings previously author­
ized by the defendant Board and also reviewed its long- 
range planning. Counsel for the plaintiffs stated that they 
had received a copy of the report, and that they did not 
desire to file objections or exceptions thereto. The right 
was reserved, however, to later object to the construction 
or enlargement of facilities not referred to in the report. 
Without objection, the Court, on September 28, 1965, en­
tered a memorandum and order authorizing the defendant 
Board to proceed with the acquisition of school sites, the 
construction of new buildings, and the enlargement or reno­
vation of existing school buildings and facilities, in accord­
ance with its report dated August 20, 1965, and received 
in evidence as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 65-1. The order was 
without prejudice to the rights of the plaintiffs to there­
after file specific written objections to the acquisition of 
other school sites, or the construction of new buildings, or 
the enlargement or renovation of existing school buildings 
not set out and referred to in said report. The said report 
of August 20, 1965, and the Court’s memorandum and 
order of September 28, 1965, are incorporated herein by 
reference.

With respect to the enrollment and assignment of pupils, 
the defendant Board, on September 23, 1965, was directed, 
not later than October 15, 1965, to file with the Court, with 
a copy to counsel for the plaintiffs, its plan for the enroll­

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



3 2 3 a

ment and assignment of pupils for the 1966-1967 and sub­
sequent school years. The Court expressed the opinion that 
the defendant was privileged to submit a plan based on 
either freedom of choice, as approved by the Court of 
Appeals in Bradley v. School Board of City of Richmond, 
Virginia, 4 Cir., 345 F. 2d 310 (1965), and Wheeler v. Dur­
ham City Board of Education, 4 Cir., 346 F. 2d 768 (1965), 
or the compact school zone plan as referred to in Gilliam 
v. School Board of City of Hopewell, Virginia, 4 Cir., 345 
F. 2d 325 (1965). On October 25, 1965, the defendant filed 
a comprehensive plan governing the assignment and enroll­
ment of pupils in the Durham School System during the 
1966-1967 and subsequent school years, and indicated that 
a copy of same had been mailed to counsel for the plaintiffs 
on October 14, 1965. On October 25, 1965, the plaintiffs 
filed their response to said plan, advising the Court that, 
insofar as they were aware, the plan was consistent with 
the freedom of choice plan referred to by the Court of 
Appeals in Bradley v. School Board of City of Richmond, 
Virginia, 4 Cir., 345 F. 2d 310 (1965). The plaintiffs did 
not, however, consent to, or acquiesce in, an order approv­
ing the plan for the reasons that the issue of faculty seg­
regation was vitally related to the adequacy of the plan. 
It was further contended that, in the context of these cases, 
the freedom of choice type of plan was inadequate to effect 
desegregation of the school system in view of the policy 
of the defendant in placing teachers in schools on the basis 
of race. In plaintiffs’ supplemental response to said plan, 
filed on November 25, 1965, the Court was requested to 
reserve decision on the plan for the enrollment and assign­
ment of pupils “until the issues relating to the defendant’s 
practice of allocating teachers to schools on a racial basis 
[had] been resolved.” Plaintiffs asserted that their request

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



324a

found direct support in Bradley v. School Board of the City 
of Richmond, Virginia, 34 LW 3170 (November 16, 1965). 
The plan for permanent desegregation of the Durham City- 
Schools, as filed with the Court by the defendant on Octo­
ber 25, 1965, and the responses of the plaintiffs filed on 
October 25, 1965, and November 26, 1965, are incorporated 
herein by reference.

On September 20, 1965, the North Carolina Teachers 
Association filed a written motion for an order to intervene 
as a party plaintiff in these cases, and to file a complaint 
in intervention. The certificate of service indicates that 
copies of the motion papers had been served on counsel 
for the defendant by mail on September 17, 1965. The 
applicant for intervention alleged that it was a professional 
teachers association and that most of its membership was 
composed of Negro teachers teaching in the public schools 
of North Carolina, including the Durham City Schools. 
It was contended that the intervention should be permitted 
on the grounds that (1) the applicant and its members 
were members of the class who would or might be affected 
by the relief prayed for by the original plaintiffs, (2) the 
applicant and its members had a substantial interest in 
the subject matter of the action, (3) the applicant and its 
members might be bound by any judgment relating to the 
desegregation of pupils and teachers, (4) the claims of the 
applicant and those of the original plaintiffs presented 
common questions of law and fact, and (5) the interven­
tion would not to any extent delay or prejudice the adju­
dication of the rights of the original parties who were 
represented by the same counsel. The applicant for inter­
vention was represented by the same counsel as the original 
plaintiffs. Consquently, the applicant and its attorneys had 
known since the litigation was first started back in 1960

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



325a

that the question relating to the employment and assign­
ment of teachers in the Durham City Schools was one of 
the issues being litigated in this case, and had known since 
July 22, 1965, that this issue was one of the issues set for 
trial on September 23, 1965. Under Local Rule 21(g), the 
defendant had 20 days after service of the motion to file 
its response. If the complaint in intervention had been 
allowed and the defendant given time to file its answer, 
the evidentiary hearing scheduled for September 23, 1965, 
would have been delayed. Counsel for the plaintiffs stated 
that in no event did they want to delay the hearing. The 
Court denied the motion to intervene, and on September 
28, 1965, filed a memorandum and order, incorporated 
herein by reference, setting forth its reasons for the action 
taken.

Commencing on September 23, 1965, a full evidentiary 
hearing was held on the one remaining issue, namely, the 
relation between employment and assignment of teachers 
and other school personnel on a racially segregated basis 
and the adequacy of the plan for the enrollment and as­
signment of pupils. At the conclusion of the hearing, the 
parties were given specified times within which to file pro­
posed findings of fact, conclusions of law, and briefs. Oral 
arguments were waived. Since the plaintiffs offered no 
evidence, and requested no findings or conclusions, with 
respect to the employment and assignment of administra­
tive personnel in the Durham School System, it is assumed 
that this issue has been abandoned.

The request for findings of fact, conclusions of law, and 
briefs of the parties having been received, the Court, after 
considering the evidence, including exhibits, answers to 
interrogatories and depositions, and briefs filed by the

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



326a

parties, now makes and files herein its Findings of Fact 
and Conclusions of Law, separately stated:

F indings of Fact

1. During the present school year, the Durham City 
Public School System is composed of two high schools, five 
junior high schools, and eighteen elementary schools. As 
of June, 1965, the System employed 652 teachers, 348 white 
and 304 Negro, and enrolled 14,365 pupils, 7,114 white and 
7,251 Negro. By racial composition of students, one of the 
high schools is predominantly white and the other is at­
tended solely by Negroes; three of the junior high schools 
are predominantly white, and the other two are attended 
solely by Negroes; and one of the elementary schools is 
all-white, nine are predominantly white, and the remaining 
eight are attended solely by Negroes.

2. In June of 1965, there were 408 Negro pupils attend­
ing thirteen schools with white pupils and white faculties. 
The balance of the Negro pupils attended schools with all- 
Negro faculties and pupils. All white children attended 
predominantly white schools with all-white faculties. No 
white child attended any of the eleven all-Negro schools.

3. In September of 1965, 600 Negroes attended school 
with white pupils and white faculties, 324 of them being 
in predominantly white schools for the first time. All white 
children in the System attended predominantly white 
schools with all-white faculties. The balance of the Negro 
students attended the eleven all-Negro schools. In Sep­
tember of 1965, one white teacher was employed by the 
all-Negro Hillside High School to teach English to out­

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



327a

standing students, and all other teachers in the eleven 
Negro schools were Negroes.

4. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, an 
accrediting agency, has recently approved for accreditation 
all of the elementary and high schools in the Durham City 
School System. Accreditation was also recommended for 
all junior high schools, except one attended solely by Negro 
pupils which was not found to be eligible because it had 
not been in operation one full year, and another attended 
predominantly by white pupils which had accreditation 
deferred pending the removal of certain deficiencies. Dur­
ing its survey, the Association did not report any instance 
where pupils in any school did not have the same level of 
instruction, or rapport between teacher and pupil, as found 
in all other schools in the System.

5. In recent years, the Durham City School System has 
employed between 75 and 100 new teachers each year as 
replacements and to fill new positions. Ordinarily, there 
are between 500 and 1000 applicants to fill these vacancies. 
Even with this large number of applicants, made up in part 
by wives of graduate students at Duke University, con­
siderable difficulty has often been experienced in finding 
teachers in certain fields. The turnover among white 
teachers has been greater than among Negro teachers, re­
sulting in a larger percentage of Negro teachers in the 
System having more years of experience than white 
teachers. Approximately 48% of the Negro teachers have 
graduate degrees, while only from 18 to 20% of the white 
teachers have graduate degrees.

6. The Durham City School System has a uniform salary 
scale for all teachers, both white and Negro, and salaries

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



328a

are based upon years of experience and degrees held. All 
public school teachers in the State of North Carolina, in­
cluding the Durham City Schools, are employed on a year- 
to-year basis, and do not have tenure. There are no laws 
or regulations, State or local, governing the assignment 
of teaching personnel to particular schools. Teachers pre­
viously employed are required to make application each 
spring for re-employment, using a simplified application 
form. In addition to the employment of teachers before 
the commencement of the school year, a number of new 
teachers are employed to fill vacancies which occur during 
the year. For example, during the last six years, there 
have been from eleven to twenty vacancies during each 
school year.

7. During the 1963-1964 school year, eighteen new teach­
ing positions were filled by four white teachers and four­
teen Negro teachers. In 1965-1966, four new positions were 
filled by three white teachers and one Negro teacher.

8. As earlier noted, white teachers have been employed 
to teach in schools attended predominantly by white pupils, 
except for one white teacher who is employed at the all- 
Negro high school. Additionally, during the 1965 summer 
school program, a Negro teacher taught at a predominantly 
white elementary school, and a white teacher taught at an 
all-Negro elementary school. Integration of professional 
employees and activities in the Durham City School System 
has been achieved in the area of (1) meetings of super­
visors, principals and teachers, (2) workshops and in- 
service training course, (3) grade level meetings, and (4) 
supervisory staff work.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



329a

9. Since 1959, no teacher in the Durham City Schools 
has been discharged or demoted by reason of decrease in 
enrollment of pupils at a particular school, or the practices 
of the defendant Board in making teacher assignments.

10. There is no evidence to support a finding, and indeed 
the plaintiff does not contend, that the defendant Board 
has not assigned equally qualified teachers to all schools, 
or that the quality of instruction at schools employing 
Negro teachers is not equal to the quality of instruction 
at schools employing white teachers.

11. There is no written policy requiring the assignment 
of teachers on a racial basis, but the practice and custom 
is admittedly maintained with the approval of the defen­
dant Board.

12. Practice teaching programs have also been operated 
on a segregated basis. This results in students from white 
colleges going to white public schools, and those from Negro 
colleges going to Negro public schools, for their student 
training. A white college student who sought assignment 
to a Negro school, and a Negro college student who sought 
assignment to a white school, were both denied such as­
signments. The superintendent maintains, however, that 
these applications were handled by the applicants in an 
unorthodox manner.

13. The defendant Board recruits teaching personnel by 
sending brochures containing general announcements of 
vacancies to both white and Negro training institutions in 
the southeastern part of the United States. Newspaper 
advertising is also employed at times to recruit personnel.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



330a

The brochures emphasize the advantages of teaching in 
the City of Durham and in the Durham City School System. 
All interested persons are furnished with applications, 
which they are required to complete and return to the 
superintendent. New teachers are selected from such ap­
plications on basis of certification, experience, scholastic 
record, recommendations, appearance, personality, general 
attitude, and apparent fitness for a given vacancy. Before 
employing a teacher for any position, the applicants are 
personally interviewed in order to determine the quality 
of voice, and to discover the oral use of English and other 
traits not apparent from the written application. The 
application form requires that the applicant state his or 
her race, and submit a photograph.

14. In order to receive certification by the State of North 
Carolina, all new teachers are required to take the Na­
tional Teacher Examination and receive a minimum score 
of 450 on the examination. Since April 3, 1964, the defen­
dant Board has required all applicants to take the National 
Teacher Examination. During the last two years, all 
teachers who have been employed by the defendant Board 
have been required to have a score of 500, or better, on the 
examination.

15. While the defendant Board has no policy requiring 
the employment of Negro teachers to teach at all Negro 
schools, or the employment of white teachers to teach at 
all white or predominantly white schools, the admitted 
practice of the Board has been to employ the best quali­
fied available Negro teachers for schools attended by Negro 
pupils, and the best qualified white teachers for schools 
attended solely or predominantly by white pupils.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



331a

16. On August 30, 1965, by a 4-2 vote, the defendant 
Board voted to continue its existing policy with respect to 
teacher assignments, but stated that it might, by majority 
vote, “make exceptions to any of its policies for valid and 
sound educational reasons.” The Superintendent under­
stands this policy to mean that he has no authority to 
assign a white teacher to a Negro school, or a Negro teacher 
to a white school, without first submitting the matter to 
the defendant Board to determine if it will make an ex­
ception to the general policy. The majority report indi­
cated that a considerable number of white parents had 
expressed “their dislike of having their children under 
Negro teachers” ; that during the two years of free trans­
fers, no white parent had requested transfer to a Negro 
school; that those white pupils assigned to a Negro school 
had in every instance requested reassignment to predomi­
nantly white schools; and that some Negroes had sought 
transfer from white schools to Negro schools. Because of 
the fact that in 1964-1965, under a free transfer plan, all 
white pupils attended predominantly white schools, and 
94% of the Negro pupils attended all-Negro schools, the 
majority felt that substantial strength was given to their 
present policy of teacher assignments. The majority also 
believed that its questionnaire of teacher preferences cor­
related with pupil preferences, and that its policy of 
teacher assignments had provided the school system with 
the most effective program of education for all pupils. 
Dr. Speigner, a Negro member of the defendant Board, 
submitted a separate statement disagreeing with the deci­
sion to retain the racial policy in making faculty place­
ments.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



332a

17. A committee of the defendant Board appointed to 
study the employment and assignment of teachers made 
a survey of the preferences of teachers employed in the 
Durham City Schools, and of their attitudes toward faculty 
integration. The results were tabulated from question­
naires sent to all teachers in the system. A return of the 
questionnaire was not required, and teachers who did 
return the completed forms were permitted to sign them, 
or not sign them, at their election. The questionnaire was 
returned by 93.7 per cent of the teachers. Of the 228 Negro 
teachers who returned the form, not a single teacher indi­
cated that he or she felt better qualified to teach predomi­
nantly white classes, and only one indicated a preference 
to teach predominantly white classes. Of the 323 white 
teachers who completed and returned the questionnaire, 
the great majority indicated they felt best qualified to 
teach, and were most willing to teach, predominantly white 
classes. The white teachers indicated that they were least 
qualified, and least willing, to teach predominantly Negro 
classes.

18. The plaintiffs offered the testimony of several wit­
nesses in the fields of sociology and education in an attempt 
to show the extent parental choices were influenced by 
faculty segregation where students were given complete 
freedom to attend schools of their choice. While none of 
these witnesses were found, or declared to be, experts in 
their respective fields, they nevertheless were permitted to 
express views with respect to the consequences of faculty 
segregation in a system where children were free to choose 
the schools they desired to attend.

19. The first witness offered by the plaintiffs was Myrl 
Gr. Herman, Professor of Education and Director of Lab­

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



333a

oratory Experiences at .Rhode Island College, who testified 
that while he had made no study of the Durham City 
School System, and had no opinion concerning the ade­
quacy of the free-enrollment policy presently in effect, he 
felt that schools should always employ and assign the best 
available teachers without regard to race. He further 
stated, however, that school boards should only assign 
teachers to schools where they were willing to teach, since 
a serious morale problem would arise if teachers were 
assigned against their wills. In the employment of teachers, 
Mr. Herman felt that the school board should be able to 
consider such factors as standing in college, experience, 
proficiency, personality, and ability to express themselves 
and to mingle with others. He stated that his experience 
taught that it was always desirable for school children to 
come in contact with all other cultures since they would be 
required to mix with other cultures after they had com­
pleted their education. Generally, he felt there was a 
reluctance on the part of parents to request an assignment 
of their children to schools which were totally or predomi­
nantly of another race, and that this was true of both 
white and Negro parents. He approves of the National 
Teacher Examination to the extent that school boards re­
quire all applicants for teaching positions to make a mini­
mum score before their applications are considered.

19. Dr. Joseph S. Himes, Chairman of the Department 
of Sociology at North Carolina College, testified that a 
mixture of teachers by races had an advantage to pupils 
and teachers alike; that Negro teachers at an integrated 
school had an important morale value in that it gave them 
a sense of belonging; that segregated faculties had a ten­
dency to create the impression that Negroes are inferior,

Bindings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



334a

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion

and tended to demonstrate to Negro students that it was 
not possible to work with whites; that one of the conse­
quences of faculty segregation was to encourage both Negro 
and white parents to continue sending their children to a 
school where teachers were of their same racial group; 
that he was against freedom of choice for students; and 
felt that schools should be forced to integrate. Dr. Himes 
stated, however, that he was not sure that his ideas had 
any validity in the Durham City School system since he 
was not familiar with the freedom of choice method em­
ployed to assign teachers, or the effect such methods had 
on the employment and assignment of teachers.

20. Dr. Joseph P. McKelpin, Professor of Education at 
North Carolina College, stated that school children needed 
experience with all color groups in the community for the 
reason that such experience would cause some children 
to develop a better concept of themselves, and their efforts 
toward their goals and aspirations would be more realistic. 
Dr. McKelpin expressed the opinion that freedom of choice 
for students would not be meaningful without faculty de­
segregation for the reason that freedom to choose a school 
was an empty gesture as long as teachers remained seg­
regated.

21. Howard M. Fritts, Jr., a teacher of Health and 
Hygiene at North Carolina College, and a member of the 
Durham Committee on Negro Affairs, testified that he has 
a child attending the fifth grade at Morehead Elementary 
School, a predominantly white school in the Durham City 
School System; that the primary objective of the Durham 
Committee on Negro Affairs was to improve educational 
opportunities for Negro youths, and that one of its activ-



335a

it-ies had been to encourage Negro children to enter deseg­
regated schools; that when parents considered sending 
children to schools with segregated faculties, they had fears 
that the teachers might show some prejudice and might 
not give their children the feeling of being wanted; and 
that there is also a fear that their children might not have 
the opportunity to participate in all school activities. Mr. 
Fritts also felt the parents of older children, and the 
children themselves, had fears that they might be called 
names, that there might be conflicts arising between chil­
dren and the teachers, and that administrators would not 
intercede or be impartial. Mr. Fritts went on to testify 
that this was the third year his child had been in an inte­
grated school, and that he experienced the same fears as 
those expressed by other parents when he first entered his 
child in a predominantly white school with an all white 
faculty. He concluded, however, by stating that the ex­
perience with his own child had proved his fears to have 
been unfounded.

22. Elliott B. Palmer, Executive Secretary of the North 
Carolina Teachers Association, testified that he had re­
ceived complaints in other North Carolina communities 
about the loss of jobs by Negro teachers because of the 
loss of population in Negro schools, and because of seg­
regated faculty policies. However, he had no specific infor­
mation concerning the Durham City School System.

23. Negro pupils who have requested assignment to pre­
dominantly white schools have participated in the full 
programs of those schools, including band, football, base­
ball and basketball. All such and similar activities have 
been offered to, and exercised by, all pupils on the same

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



336a

basis. The defendant Board has received no complaints 
from any Negro child or parent to the effect that any child 
assigned to a predominantly white school had been mis­
treated in any way, or had not been given equal oppor­
tunities within the school. In several instances, personal 
inquiry by school officials had been made of Negro students 
attending predominantly white schools, and in all such 
instances the Negro students had reported that they were 
getting along well with their teachers and white classmates, 
and had no complaints.

24. The plaintiffs have offered no direct evidence that 
Negro children in the Durham City School System, or 
parents, have been threatened or coerced, or have otherwise 
been reluctant to exercise their free choice of assignment, 
by reason of the present practices of the defendant Board 
in the employment and assignment of faculty members.

25. Under the freedom of choice system presently exist­
ing in the Durham City Schools, and under the plan for 
the enrollment and assignment of pupils during the 1966- 
1967 and subsequent school years, as filed with the Court 
on October 25, 1965, the parents of every child, white and 
Negro, are given the unrestricted right and opportunity 
to select the school they desire their child to attend.

Discussion

There can be no question but that the comprehensive 
plan governing the enrollment and assignment of pupils 
in the Durham City School System for the 1966-1967 and 
subsequent school years, as embodied in the report filed 
with the Court by the defendant Board on October 25, 1965, 
is consistent in every respect with, and embodies every

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



337a

essential element of, the freedom of choice assignment plan 
approved by the Court of Appeals in Bradley v. School 
Board of City of Richmond, Virginia, 4 Cir., 345 F. 2d 310 
(1965), and cited with approval in Wheeler v, Durham City 
Board of Education, 4 Cir., 346 F. 2d 768 (1965). It em­
braces a system whereby each student is accorded the truly 
unrestricted freedom to attend the school of his choice. 
It is true that the Bradley case was remanded by the 
Supreme Court4 on the ground that the Court of Appeals 
should have remanded the matter to the district court for 
an evidentiary hearing on the relation between faculty al­
locations on an alleged racial basis and the adequacy of 
the desegregation plan, but the Supreme Court pointed out 
that it expressed no views on the merits of the case.

The plaintiffs, after a full evidentiary hearing, have 
totally failed to prove their allegation that there is any 
substantial relationship between the employment and as­
signment of teachers on a basis of race and the freedom 
of choice plan adopted by the defendant Board governing 
the enrollment and assignment of pupils, or that the method 
of employing and assigning teachers in any way renders 
inadequate the jjroposed plan for the enrollment and as­
signment of pupils.

It is interesting to note that none of the witnesses ten­
dered by the plaintiffs as experts had any knowledge of 
information whatever concerning the freedom of choice 
plan presently being employed in the Durham City School 
System, and which the defendant Board proposes to con­
tinue in the future, and that their testimony was confined 
to generalities and sociological theories. No specific ex­
amples were given. The one exception was Howard M.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and, Opinion

4 34 LW 3170 (November 16, 1965).



338a

Fx'itts, Jr., and he stated that his earlier feelings with 
respect to the consequences of his child being enrolled in 
a predominantly white school, and taught by an all white 
faculty, had proved to be unfounded. The language of 
Judge Brown, in discussing testimony of a similar nature 
in Monroe v. Board of Com., City of Jackson, 244 F. Supp. 
353 (W.D. Tenn., 1965), seems particularly appropriate:

“Plaintiffs offered some testimony from Negro parents 
that Negro pupils are reluctant to attend schools in 
which all the teachers are white, some because they are 
afraid that the white teachers would require higher 
performance and perhaps others because they are 
afraid that they would not receive fair treatment. 
These witnesses gave no specific examples. It should 
be noted, however, that the intervening plaintiffs, at 
least, are seeking to attend schools with all white 
faculties. Plaintiffs’ education experts largely testified 
in terms of the educational desirability of mixed facul­
ties, but we do not believe that this is a constitutional 
consideration. Plaintiffs’ sociology expert testified that 
in his investigation of the question at Nashville he had 
not turned up much evidence that fear of going to 
school to all white teachers is a deterrent, but he also 
testified that having all Negro teachers stigmatizes a 
school as a ‘Negro’ school which tends to keep it 
segregated.”

Since the testimony of plaintiff’s witnesses was based on 
theory rather than existing problems, and since the plain­
tiffs have totally failed to prove their charge that freedom 
of choice on the part of students and their parents has in 
any way been coerced, discouraged or otherwise affected

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



339a

by placing teachers in schools on the basis of race, it neces­
sarily follows that the defendant Board is entitled to have 
the freedom of choice plan for the enrollment and assign­
ment of pupils approved as being free of constitutional 
infirmities. Actually, the testimony of Myrl G. Herman, 
the most impressive witness offered by the plaintiffs, tends 
to disprove the plaintiffs’ charge. While recognizing the 
desirability of assigning teachers without regard to race, 
Mr. Herman felt that school children received the greatest 
benefit by coming into contact with the people of other 
races and cultures. This benefit would be denied Negro; 
children attending a predominantly white school if they 
were not also taught by white teachers.

It is rather apparent that what is being attempted here 
is to use the pupils as a vehicle for obtaining a desegre­
gation of faculties without in any way involving teachers 
in the litigation. This the plaintiffs may not do. Teachers 
are clearly not within the class represented by the plaintiffs, 
and the plaintiffs cannot assert, or ask protection of, con­
stitutional rights of others not parties to the action. Mapp 
v. Board of Education of Chattanooga, 6 Cir., 319 F. 2d 571 
(1963).

Nothing that has been said is to be construed as the Court 
condoning racial discrimination in the employment and 
assignment of teachers. On the contrary, any policy that 
requires, or even permits, any racial consideration what­
ever in the employment and placement of teacher person­
nel is clearly unlawful. Colorado Comm’n. v. Continental, 
372 U. S. 714 (1963). However, as earlier noted, the con­
stitutional rights of the teachers must be vindicated by 
the teachers themselves, not by some group or organization 
acting on their behalf. The plaintiffs only acquire standing

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion



340a

by showing that they themselves are affected by the action 
complained of.

For the reasons stated, the defendant Board is entitled 
to an order approving its plan for the enrollment and as­
signment of pupils in the Durham City School System for 
1966-1967 and subsequent school years, as embodied in its 
report of October 25, 1965. Consequently, an order is being 
entered approving said plan.

Conclusions of Law

1. The Court has jurisdiction of the parties and of the 
subject matter.

2. The policies and practices of the defendant Board in 
the employment and assignment of teachers do not coerce, 
discourage, or interfere with the unrestricted freedom of 
pupils to be enrolled in, and assigned to, schools of their 
choice, and such plan is in all respects free of constitutional 
infirmities.

3. The application of the plaintiffs for an order requir­
ing the employment and assignment of teachers in the 
Durham City School System without regard to race should 
be denied.

Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Opinion

January 19, 1966

/%/ Edwin M. Stanley 
United States District Judge



341a.

O R D E R

(Filed January 19, 1966.)

Following the remand of these cases by the Court of 
Appeals (Wheeler v. Durham City Board of Education, 4 
Cir., 346 F. 2d 768 (1965)), the Court, on July 16, 1965, 
entered a consent order governing the enrollment and as­
signment of pupils in the Durham City School System for 
the 1965-1966 school year, and directed the defendant Board 
to file a plan, free of constitutional infirmities, governing 
the enrollment and assignment of pupils for the 1966-1967 
and subsequent school years.

Pursuant to the direction of the Court, the defendant 
Board, on October 25, 1965, filed with the Court a “Perma­
nent Plan for Desegregation of the Durham City Schools,” 
which embodied the unrestricted freedom of choice ap­
proved by the Court of Appeals in Bradley v. School Board 
of City of Richmond, Virginia, 4 Cir., 345 F. 2d 310 (1965), 
and cited with approval in Wheeler v. Durham City Board 
of Education, 4 Cir., 346 F. 2d 768 (1965). The certificate 
of service indicated that a copy of the proposed plan had 
been served on counsel for the plaintiffs on October 14, 
1965. On October 25, 1965, the plaintiffs filed a response 
to said plan, advising the Court that the plan was consistent 
with the freedom of choice system approved by the Court 
of Appeals in the Bradley and Wheeler cases, but objected 
to the approval of the plan for the reason that faculty 
segregation in the Durham City School System rendered 
the plan inadequate. The plaintiffs further requested that 
a decision on the plan for the enrollment and assignment 
of pupils be deferred until the issues relating to the prac­
tice of the defendant Board in allocating teachers on a racial 
basis had been resolved.



342a

Order

Following a full evidentiary hearing, the Court has on 
this date made and filed herein its Findings of Fact, Con­
clusions of Law, and Opinion wherein it was found and 
concluded that the policies and practices of the defendant 
Board in the employment and assignment of teachers do 
not coerce, discourage, or interfere with the unrestricted 
freedom of pupils to be enrolled in and assigned to schools 
of their choice, and that said “Permanent Plan for Deseg­
regation of the Durham City Schools,” governing the en­
rollment and assignment of pupils for the 1966-1967 and 
subsequent school years, should be in all respects approved.

Now, therefore, in accordance with said Findings of Fact, 
Conclusions of Law, and Opinion, It is  o r d e r e d , a d j u d g e d  

a n d  d e c r e e d  :

1. That the “ Permanent Plan for Desegregation of Dur­
ham City Schools,” as filed with the Court by the defendant 
Board on October 25, 1965, the provisions of which are 
incorporated herein by reference, be, and same is hereby, 
in all respects approved, and that said plan shall hereafter 
remain in effect until such time as the defendant Board 
shall present, and with the approval of the Court adopt, 
some other plan for the enrollment and assignment of 
pupils which is also free of constitutional infirmities.

2. That the application of the plaintiffs for an order 
requiring the employment and assignment of teachers in 
the Durham City School System without regard to race be, 
and same hereby is, denied.

3. That all previous injunctions issued by the Court shall 
continue in effect.



343a

Order

4. That jurisdiction of these causes be retained for the 
entry of such orders as are necessary and proper.

/ s /  Edwin M. Stanley 
United States District Judge

January 19, 1966



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