Correspondence from Still to Martin; to Jones; to Floyd; to Vaughan; to Kirk

Correspondence
September 11, 1986

Correspondence from Still to Martin; to Jones; to Floyd; to Vaughan; to Kirk preview

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  • Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Scott v Winston Salem Board of Education Appendix, 1970. d9399cce-c39a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/c4429916-b5f2-4058-906e-b5709c831c31/scott-v-winston-salem-board-of-education-appendix. Accessed May 22, 2025.

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    Volume II

In The

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 

FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT 

Nos. 15,185, 15,186, 15,187, 15,188

CATHERINE SCOTT, et al. ,

Appellants,
v.

WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY 
BOARD OF EDUCATION, et al.,

Appellees.

Appeal From The United States District Court For The 
Middle District Of North Carolina

APPENDIX

J. LeVONNE CHAMBERS 
ADAM STEIN
CHAMBERS, STEIN, FERGUSON & LANNING 

216 West Tenth Street 
Charlotte, North Carolina 28202

CONRAD 0. PEARSON
203-1/2 East Chapel Hill Street 
Durham, North Carolina 27702

JACK GREENBERG 
JAMES M. NABRIT, III 
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN 

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

Attorneys for Appellants



INDEX

Volume I

Page

Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint ....................................  3

Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education ............ :.......................  18

Further Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/
Forysth County Board of Education .............................  23

Answer of Defendant, Board of County Commissioners
of Forsyth County ................................................  25

Motion to Dismiss of Defendant, Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County .................................  28

Memorandum in Support of Defendant's Motion to
Dismiss ........................................................  29

Answer of Defendants North Carolina State Board of
Education and Dr. A. Craig Phillips ...........................  30

Motions to Dismiss and For Summary Judgment of 
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. Charles F. Carroll ....................................  34

Memorandum Brief in Support of Motions ........................ 41

Plaintiffs' Response to Defendants' Motion to
Dismiss and Motions for Summary Judgment ...................... 46

Memorandum ..................................................... 34

Order, Filed June 9, 1969 .....................................  38

Order, Filed August 5, 1969 ...................................  82

Plaintiffs' Motion for Preliminary Injunction ................  65

Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response to Motion ...................................  67

Memorandum in Support of Response .............................  69

i



Page

Defendants State Board of Education and the 
Superintendent of Public Instruction's Response to Motion ...............

Interim Order, Filed January 12, 1970

Order, Filed January 19, 1970

Motion For Summary Judgment of Defendant Board of 
County Commissioners of Forsyth County

Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant Board of County 
Commissioners of Forsyth County's Motion For 
Summary Judgment ..............

Memorandum ................

Memorandum and Order, Filed February 17, 1970

Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal
Memorandum ...............

Plaintiffs Objections to Defendants' Plan of 
Desegregation .....................

Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time 
For Docketing Case on Appeal

70

72

75

77

78

81

83

94

95

97

101

Order, Filed March 26, 1970

Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time 
To Docket Record on Appeal

103

104
Memorandum and Order, Filed June 25, 1970 

Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal

Plaintiffs' Motion For Further Extension of Time 
to Docket Record on Appeal .........

Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of 
Education's Report and Motion ...........

Order, Filed July 17, 1970

Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of 
Education's Notice of Appeal

107

205

206

209

231

234

ii



Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Notice of Motion .............................. 236

Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Report and Motion .............................  237

Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant's Report and Motion .......  255

Plaintiffs' Motion to Add Additional Parties-
Defendant ..................................................... 259

Preliminary Response of Defendant Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County ..............................  261

Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education 
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Reply to Motion to
Add Additional Parties-Defendant .............................  262

Order, Filed August 17, 1970 .................................  267

Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Notice of Appeal .................................  269

Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal .................................  271

Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education 
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Motion to Strike Out
Order Adding Additional Parties-Defendant .................... 272

Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response and Motion .................................  275

Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Brief in Support of Response and Motion ............  277

Plaintiffs' Reply to Motions of the Defendants Board 
of County Commissioners of Forsyth County, North Carolina 
State Board of Education and Dr. A. Craig Phillips,
State Superintendent of Public Instruction ..................  285

Order, Filed September 15, 1970 .............................. 293

Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal ....................................  296

Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal ....................................  297

Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education and
Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Notice of Appeal ...................... 298

Page

iii



Page
Interrogatories oi Plaintiifs to Defendant Winston-Salem/ 
Forsyth County Hoard of Education and Defendant's Answers

Interrogator ion oi Hoard (if County Commi 
Plaintiffs and Plaintiffs' Answers

loners to

Stipulation ......................

Plaintiffs' Interrogatories to Defendant and 
Defendant's Answers .......

299

328

336

338

Exhibits

School Board Members By Race, 1959-1969 and 1969-1970

School Board Policy With Respect to Non-Discrimination

Summary of Special Programs in the Winston-Salem/ 
Forsyth County School System .....................

Special Programs in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth 
County School System .....................

School Building Capacity .................. ..

Notice of Assignment Policy and Application for Transfer

School Board Regulation No. Ulll .................

School Board Policy No. 1/L15 .................................

School Board Policy No. i|123 ............

Adminisrrative Regulation No. Ul23 .............

McGuffey's Short Range Plan ..................

Trial Transcript

Hearing of January 9, 1970 ................

Volume II

Hearing of January 9, 1970 continued .................

Volume III

35U

355

356

368

373

378

382

38U

386

387

388

U25

676

1301

1724.7

Hearing of April 16, 1970 

Hearing of July 17, 1970 . 

Hearing of August 11, 1970

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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, will you come back to the

stand, please sir?
MR. V/OMBLE: Your Honor, if I may, I would like

to defer the continuation of this temporarily to back up 
and put into evidence statistical data on the composition 
of each school as of now. I think it will help the Court 
in understanding, as we go from one district to another, 
more clearly what we have.

THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,

MARVIN M. WARD
having previously been sworn, resumed the stand and testi­
fied further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you a document 

that has been identified as Defendants’ Exhibit 26 and ask
you if you would please state what that is?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 26
for identification.)

A This is a copy of information which we obtained
in December and to show the population make-up of each
school in the school district.

THE COURT: December of what year, Mr. Ward?
THE WITNESS: Of 1969.

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Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, this was submitted to whom?
A This was a report submitted to HEW. I believe

we submitted it on or about December the 19th, 1969 to HEW, 
and the information was obtained during the week prior to 
that.

U You say the information was obtained during the 
week prior to that?

A Yes.
Q Do you keep records in the school system official 

records, showing the race of the pupils in the system?
A No, we do not.
G In order to compile a list such as this, that you 

have submitted to HEW, how do you get your information?
A We asked the principals to determine as accurately 

as they can from the number of students enrolled at that 
particular' time the make-up, the racial make-up of the 
student body.

C Now, this particular one gives information both 
as to pupils and faculty, does it?

A That’s correct.
G School by school?
A Yes.
G And the racial break-down on the report isanong 

what races?
A It shows Indian, Negro, Oriental, Spanish and

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W h i t e .

Q And the front sheet, the cover sheet, of this is 
a summary sheet, is that right?

A A summary sheet, yes.
MR. WOMBLE: We offer this into evidence.
THE COURT: Do you have a copy before you, Mr.

Stein?
MR. STEIN: I do, Your Honor; no objection.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received

into the evidence is Defendants' Exhibit 26, and I'd 
like to see that, Mr Idol.

(The document above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bit No. 26 for identification, was 
received in evidence.)

Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, briefly, Mr. Ward, and 
referring to Defendants' Exhibit 24 which is the map showing 
the elementary schools in the outlying areas of the county—  

well, in fact all of the schools except those in the center 
of the county, and taking them in the same order as you did 
yesterday, could you briefly state by reference to this 
report and by pointing to each school, the racial composi­
tion of the school as far as pupils go as of the time of 
this report?

A Old Richmond, Negro 41, White 309; Vienna, Negro—
Q You might give the total of each.

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A 12, White 423 - total 435.

Let the Judge see the location of the school and
the composition.

THE COURT: You were speaking of Vienna?
THE WITNESS: Vienna Elementary.
THE COURT: Now, which one are you fixing to go to'*
THE WITNESS: Lewisville Elementary.
THE COURT: Now, wait, let me understand this.

Are the elementary in one place?
THE WITNESS: They’re on the first two pages.
THE COURT: All right. I have it.

A On the first page Lewisville Elementary is shown. 
The makeup - Negro 29, White 602 - total 631. On the same 
page, Clemmons Elementary.

HR. iVOMBLE: Does the Court have an opportunity
here to relate the information he is giving to the 
location in the county, where the school is?

THE COURT: Are you pointing to it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I’m pointing to them on each

occasion.
THE COURT: All right.

A Clemmons Elementary, Negro 14, Oriental 1, White 
972 - a total of 987. And then Griffith, just south of the 
city, the makeup is 1,020 white. On the second page, in 
the southeastern corner, Union Cross, Negro 3, White 659 -

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a total of 662. And Sedge Garden, just north of Union 
Cross, Indian 4, Negro 7, White 935 - a total of 946.

THE COURT: Now, you have district lines there
for each one of them, do you not?

THE WITNESS: Yes, the district lines that we
pointed out yesterday on the map were these.

THE COURT: Under your system, we will say that
one you just spoke about, do they have the right to 
transfer out of there and if so, have some students 
transferred?

THE WITNESS: They have the right to transfer in
or out of this district, and I am not sure about the 
particular district of Sedge Garden, but they do have 
the right and in many instances have transferred in and 
out.

MR. WOMBLE: We'll talk about transfers later.
A Kernersville Elementary, it's on the first page 

there.
THE COURT: All right.

A Indian 5, Negro 36, White 1,111 - total 1,152.
On the second page, Walkertown Elementary, up in the north­
east corner, Indian 1, Negro 91, White 916 - total 1,008.
And then on the same page, the school I mentioned yesterday 
with no definite line between,Petree Elementary, 1 Indian,
49 Negro, 280 White, for a total of 330. Then if we take

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Prince Ibraham, and the combination district of Prince 
Ibraham, Oak Summit and Mineral Springs, and take Prince 
Ibraham first—

THE COURT: Now, what page are we on here? Page 1
is Ibraham.

THE WITNESS: It's on page 1, listed under Ibraham.
THE COURT: Right.

A 361 White. And then on the second page, Mineral 
Springs at the top, Indian 1, Negro 48, White 832, with a 
total of 881. And just below it, or above it on the map and 
below it on the page, Oak Summit, 30 Negro and 656 White, 
for a total of 687. I believe the next is Rural Hall on 
the same page, up in the northern section, 50 Negro, 871 
White, for a total of 921. Old Town Elementary on the same 
page, Indian 1, Negro 99, Oriental 2, White 1,186 - total 
1,288. Speas, which is just south, Negro 2, Oriental 1, 
White 996, for a total of 999. Sherwood Forest, just south 
of Speas on the map, Negro 1, White 822, a total of 823.
And South Fork, which is just south of Sherwood Forest,
Negro 2, White 691, for a total of 693. I believe that’s 
all.

THE COURT: Under your system, within a district,
every student located in that district goes to that 
school if he wants to?

THE WITNESS: Yes, he is assigned there.

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Q (By Mr. Womble) Each student living within the
geographical boundaries as shown on Exhibit 24 would be 
assigned to the elementary school serving that district, 
is that correct?

A That's correct.
Q And then under the free choice of transfer, a 

child who had been assigned, we’ll say, to Vienna Elementary 
School would by reason of his living within the geographic 
boundaries of the attendance zone for Vienna Elementary
School, would have the privilege of transferring to another
school?

A To any other school in the system that wasn't 
over its capacity.

Q Do you have fixed rated capacities for the schools
A Every school has a rated capacity, and this

capacity is determined prior to assignment.
Q Now, where there have been transfers, transfer 

requests within the system, what has the Board's experience 
been with respect to the granting of those requests? In 
other words, what extent has the Board had to deny requests 
because of overcrowding?

A During this school year, several requests had to 
be denied, the schools that were over the capacity. No 
other requests are denied whatever for any school.

G Since this system has been in effect, what extent

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have you had to deny requests of black students requesting 
transfer to predominantly white schools?

A There have been very few.
u Have most of the requests that you have received 

been requests from pupils seeking to transfer to schools 
that were predominantly of another race, or have most of 
your requests been for transfer from one school to another 
where the pupils are predominantly of the same race?

A The great majority of requests have been for 
assignments to schools of the same race.

Q Would that be true both for black and white 
students?

A I believe it is generally true for both black and 
white.

THE COURT: In other words, they request a transfer
to where their race is in the majority?

TH& WITNESS: Yes. In other words, the transfer
normally is not based on race. It's based on a desire 
to go to a different school.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, referring again to Defen­

dants’ Exhibit 24, Mr. Ward, state whether or not the 
geographic attendance zone lines have been drawn for the 
purpose of discriminating with respect to race.

MR. STEIN: I object to the question as leading.
THE COURT: It's kind of liberal — w e ’re getting

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along with the evidence - but I'll sustain the objectior 
It is leading. You might ask him what criteria.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What criteria have been used,

Mr. Ward, in drawing the attendance lines for the schools 
shown on Defendants' Exhibit 24?

A Generally the size of the school and natural 
boundaries, such as open spaces, highways, railroads, creeks, 
and things of this nature which naturally tend to make an 
easy boundary line and one that will be satisfactory for a 
division line between families.

Q Are any of the lines based on race?
A None of the lines are based on race.

THE COURT: Mr. Ward, has there been any sub­
stantial change, we'll say, since '54 in the district 
boundaries for the schools? I don't want you to go 
into that in detail at this time, but what would you 
say? Has there been any substantial change?

THE WITNESS: There have been a number of changes
in the boundaries since '54, but most of them have been 
based upon the construction of new schools or divisions, 
and there was some change in boundaries as a result of 
the consolidation of city and county units in '63, to 
take better advantage of the school facilities. Other 
than that, most of the change in boundaries has come 
as a result of new construction or available facilities,

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for one reason or another. The Board has basically 
followed the policy of not moving people around just 
to be moving them around, unless it was a good reason 
for doing this, because it tends to upset people when 
you move them from one place to another.

THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Womble. I know it is
kind of distracting when somebody interrupts you with 
questions, but when I have something that comes to mind 
I want it answered. But go ahead.

MR. WOMBLE: Was there another question?
THE COURT: No, that's it.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, we are now looking at 
Defendants' Exhibit 25 - and incidentally, I don't think 
I've offered that in evidence. We would like to offer it 
into evidence.

THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. WOMBLE: It's a matter of showing the elemen­

tary schools in the central portion of the county.
MR. STEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that

Defendants' Exhibit 25 is received into the evidence.
(The document above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bit No. 25 for identification, was 
received in evidence.)

Q (By Mr. W om ble) Mr. Ward, I believe that you had

/

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testified yesterday afternoon about some of the schools on 
the eastern portion of this map. Would you go ahead and 
show the racial composition, pointing out each school, Just 
as you have done on the other map, down to the point where 
we were covering it yesterday, which I believe was Forest 
Park Elementary.

A On this map we started with Carver Elementary 
School up at the top on the first page, and up in the 
northeast corner of the city section, there are 706 Negroes 
and 3 white, for a total of 709. The school Just south of 
that, Fairview, 693 Negro. And south of that, on the same 
page, Fourteenth Street, 583 Negro. And then Skyland, 
which would be on the next page, Just south of that or 
southeast of Fourteenth Street, 483 Negro. I believe the 
next district we went to was Forest Park, which is Just 
south of that, and on the front page. Forest Park has 
20 Negro, 647 White, for a total of 667.

Q Now, I believe you testified yesterday that the 
former Fairview Elementary School serving this area served 
an all-white population?

A Yes, prior to I960.
Q Now it serves an all-black population?
A That’s correct.
Q And the same is true of Skyland?
A Yes, that occurred in the forties.

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Q Now, would you please explain the boundaries in 
each of the areas served and the student makeup of Waugh- 
town Elementary School?

A Waughtown Elementary is in the southeastern 
corner of the city and was formerly a city school, and the 
boundary on the east generally follows the former city 
boundary. It goes south from the Reynolds Park Road just 
east of Butler Street tc the city limit, and then follows 
the old city limit line south, close to Thomasville Road.
And then along just east of Thomasville Road, up to the 
boundary which we mentioned yesterday of Forest Park School. 
And from Waughtown Street north directly through an open 
area and through Reynolds Park to meet Reynolds Park Road, 
and that serves as the northern boundary. The enrollment 
at Waughtown—

Q Is that a new community or is that an old part of 
the community, or what?

A This is an old established community with rela­
tively little growth in it in recent years, and the makeup 
is 2 Indian, 35G White, for a total of 360. We move along 
over to Easton. Its boundary on the east is the same 
boundary just mentioned with Waughtown. The southern 
boundary follows approximately the old city limit across 
west to about the southbound railroad, and at that point 
follows the railroad track generally north to about Glencoe

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Street, and it follows Glencoe Street back across the 
northern line, till it goes just east of Thomasville Road 
and then comes back down to meet the other line, the other 
district.

Q V/hat is the nature of that area as far as develop­
ment is concerned?

A That area is a mixed neighborhood, and generally 
it is not a real old neighborhood. I think it was generally 
built sometime probably in the forties.- most of the houses 
in this general community, in the southern part. The 
northern part is much older than that. And the makeup of 
the school is 146 Negro and 191 White, for a total of 337.

THE COURT: What page is that on?
THE WITNESS: The first page, Easton.
THE COURT: Yes, I have it. I was back here on

another page which shows 4 Negro and 11 White. That's 
faculty.

THE WITNESS: That's faculty, I believe.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, yesterday you were testifying 

about the transfer of pupils from Negro schools to white 
schools in the late fifties and early sixties. Was Easton 
one of those schools?

A Easton was the second school that we mentioned, 
the second school to which Negro students were transferred.

Q And the pupils were transferring from a Negro

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school to Easton, were transferring from what school?
A They were transferring from Diggs to Easton.
Q Which is located where?
A About a mile and a half north, I guess, of Easton

School.
Q Are most of the students who now attend Easton 

from that geographic area, or is this racial mix that you 
have testified to largely the result of free choice of 
transfer?

A The makeup of this school is largely determined 
by the students who live within the district. We have very 
few students transferring into Easton, if any.

Q So that the pattern of pupil attendance at Easton 
now is not a continuation of the early pattern of pupils 
transferring from Diggs to Easton, but is the result of the 
residential makeup of the geographic attendance area served 
by that school. Is that correct?

A That is correct.
Q All right. Now, the next school?
A The Konnoak Elementary district. The eastern 

boundary is the southbound railroad; the southern boundary 
is essentially the former city limits — it may be changed 
now, and it goes across generally at this section of Waugh- 
town-Clemmonsville Road, and then follows the old city 
boundary in a slightly jagged line up north to about Beth

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Avenue, and generally follows Beth Avenue east, and then 
after it crosses the Main Street, it turns diagonally south, 
I believe, across - that may be Beth Avenue continuing on 
across. This generally is a neighborhood that has been in 
existence for a long time. There is some new growth in it 
in sections, but basically it is an older neighborhood.
The composition is 1 Negro and 550 White, for a total of
551.

Q Now, as you explained, that’s right at the very 
south end of the city?

A That's right.
Q Immediately north of that, what is the next 

school?
A We have South Park Elementary, with the same 

borderline on the south, Beth Avenue, and it follows the 
city line, I believe the old city line, diagonally west to 
Old Salisbury Road, and follows Old Salisbury—  the 
northern line follows Old Salisbury Road generally across 
until it hits Acadia Avenue, and then on into South Main 
Street. Then it moves north at South Main Street and 
generally goes diagonally across to Fayetteville Street 
until it hits the railroad, and then follows the railroad 
south to close the boundaries.

Q What is that?
A It is generally an older neighborhood in the

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1 eastern and northern section. There are new developments 
somewhat in the southern section of this district.

Q Now, when you say the northern section, you mean 
the northern section of this particular attendance zone?

A Yes.
Q Or attendance district?
A That's South Park, and on the second page. There 

are 4 Negro students and 536 whites, for a total of 540.
Q All right. The next one would by Diggs Elementary'*
A Diggs Elementary has the same southern boundary 

that I mentioned. At this point, generally the boundary for 
Diggs follows the Southern Railway on up to about the point 
that it crosses Vargrave, and then the northern line of 
that cuts through the development there just north of 
Willow Street until it hits approximately Main Street, and 
then closes the district down Main Street to the former line 
across the bottom.

Q What is the nature of the area served by Diggs
School?

A Generally that serves a housing project. The 
majority of the students come from that general area. It 
is fairly thickly populated, and the district is fairly 
small.

Q What about the access to the school?
A Acoess to the school is good for the housing

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project, but the access from any other area is relatively 
difficult. The section shown just across this line here, 
which seems to be close to Diggs, it is difficult because 
the rialroad comes in and separates it and makes it almost 
impossible for these children to come directly to school.

Q What is the composition of Diggs?
A Diggs has 609 Negro students in it.
Q Now, the next school immediately north of Diggs?
A Is hebane, which is located on Bruce Street and 

somewhat in the northern section of this district.
Q Where is Mebane located with respect to Winston- 

Salem State University?
A It would just be south of the University. The 

boundary lines of Diggs, I mentioned two of them, on the 
south, the southbound railway generally, and across here 
to Willow Street. It generally follows up through Salem 
College and through the city yard to a point about the 
expressway, and then follows the expressway east just past 
the Winston-Salem State University, and comes south until
it hits Stadium Drive, on back down to about the southbound 
railway.

Q What is the nature of that area?
A Generally the residential area, the major portion 

of it, is in the southern part of the district. The college, 
the University, takes up a substantial amount of area, and

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this along with the city yard, and the northern part of this 
is taken up by railway and expressways.

a The pupil makeup?
A It’s shown on the second page, 504 Negroes.
Q Now, immediately north of Mebane is what area?
A Brown Elementary School. It is rather a long,

narrow district. The district line on the south is the 
Interstate Expressway. On the east generally it is Cleve­
land Avenue up to about 23rd Street, and across 23rd and 
generally it follows Liberty Street south until it gets 
into the middle of the city district, and then I believe 
comes back across about 3rd Street, and down to the rail­
road complex to tie back into the Expressway.

Q V/hat is the nature of that community?
A Generally the students live in the north south­

eastern portion of this district. Most of the western 
portion of it is business district, up town, and relatively 
few students live back in this general - in the western 
part of it. And the composition of the school is 663 Negro 
students.

Q Now, North Elementary?
A North Elementary is just west of Brown, and 

Liberty Street generally makes the southern and eastern 
boundary, and this western boundary generally follows Oak 
Street, I believe, on its western boundary, and follows

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generally GlemAvenue up to approximately 23rd Street, and 
then across 23rd Street to Liberty, makes the boundary of 
this district.

0 What is the nature of that community?
A That is generally a relatively old community 

that was one time white, and somewhere in the middle sixties 
the school population changed and the community population 
changed from white to Negro. And the makeup of the school 
population now is 689 Negro students.

Q How recently was North Elementary attended by all- 
white students?

A Along about *64, I believe, is about the time 
this changed.

Q And you still serve the same geographic area, do
you?

A Generally the same geographic area that was 
served. I believe that the portion on the east, the Brown 
and the North Elementary district, and the Fairview district 
and this general area right between them, may have been 
changed somewhere in that period.

Q Let's see. The school immediately north of 
North Elementary is what school?

A That would be Lowrance. The boundary of Lowrance 
on the south, if we start with Glenn Avenue and 23rd Street, 
generally follows Liberty Street north to about 28th Street,

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1 and then goes west on approximately—  or it goes east on 
approximately 28th Street, and then goes through an open 
area up into the adjacent Carver line to the airport, and 
then we have a direct line, or straight line, across the 
northern boundary until it hits Cherry-Marshall Street.
I'm not sure what the street is. I'm not sure of the name 
of this street; I can't read it on the map and I'm not sure 
of the name of it.

Q It's on a direct line west, though, following 
about at midpoint of the airport, is it?

A Yes, from about midpoint of the airport until it 
hits Cherry-Marshall, and then it comes south on Cherry- 
Marshall Street to about Corporation Parkway and then follows 
Corporation Parkway back across, and roughly down Lyon 
Avenue until it ties in again.

Q Nov/, the Lowrance Elementary School is what kind 
of an area from the standpoint of development?

A Generally the Lowrance area is fairly old.
Portions of the district contain business, and a corner of 
it has the airport. This district has changed generally 
from white to Negro in the last three or four years, and 
the school population at this time is 726 Negro and 12 
white, for a total of 738.

Q Now, how recently was Lowrance Elementary School 
serving an all-white or almost all-white pupil population?

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1 A About four years ago, and there has been a 
gradual movement of white out until now only 12 students - 
white students - are still attending, and I believe the 
twelve live within the district.

Q Did it go through a time when the racial mix 
in the school reflected this transition? In other words, 
how did it progress, both at Lowrance and at North Elemen­
tary? Did it go completely from white to black in one year, 
or did it reflect a progressive change year by year as the 
transition occurred?

A At North Elementary the transition occurred 
within a one-year span of time. The transition of Lowrance 
has been more slowly over a span of about four years, and 
of course, there are not white students now in the North 
Elementary School, and there are still a few in Lowrance.
The earlier stages of movement in Lowrance were more rapid 
than they have been in the last year or two.

Q Now, the Kimberly Park Elementary?
A Kimberly Park Elementary has the same general 

line on the east, Lyon Avenue, approximately on the north 
it's generally Corporation Parkway, on the west—

Q Corporation Parkway or Coliseum?
A Coliseum Drive, I'm sorry. And then the western 

boundary comes through generally an open space down through 
the Children's Home property, down roughly - I'm coming too

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far - generally to the corner - the open space - the 
corner of the Children's Home property, and then across on 
about 20th Street to Thurman, and then it drops down a 
little lower on Thurman and goes roughly across on 14th 
Street to close the bottom portion of its boundaries.

Q What is the nature of the area served by Kimberly
Park?

A Generally Kimberly Park is an older area of the 
city and has been a Negro area for a long time. This school, 
I believe, probably has always been - or the original 
school, this school was burned down about three years ago 
and a new Kimberly Park School was built to replace it.

Q On the same site?
A On the same site. The new building is not quite

as large as the one originally there, and this school is 
completely filled. The enrollment there at this time is 
778 Negro.

0  All right. What is immediately south of Kimberly
Park?

A Just south was Carver Crest Elementary, and it's 
listed as Carver Crest on this map, and the names have been 
changed now to Cook Elementary School. The northern boundary 
I have just described is the southern boundary of Kimberly 
Park. The eastern line generally follows Oak Street down 
to a point roughly of the railroad—

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Q The Southern Railroad?
A The Southern Railroad across generally the eastern 

border of it, and then it goes - the line on the west—
G That would be the southern border?
A That would be the southern border, and the

western border is generally up through the Children’s Home 
Property until it ties in up about 20th Street with the 
Kimberly Park.

Q What is the nature of the area served by that 
school?

A This is still generally an older area that has 
been a Negro residential development. This school was 
built in about 1950, and the makeup is 477 Negro.

Q Now, the school immediately south of Carver Crest?
A Is Brunson Elementary, and Brunson Elementary has 

an unusual district in the fact that it has taken into it 
several areas that really do not have as many pupils in it. 
The southern boundary of it generally is the Interstate 
Expressway, and it includes generally the Baptist Hospital 
complex, and that portion of Ardmore, though there are now 
very few students in that district, just as the eastern 
portion of the district is essentially the downtown business 
district. On the west the general line is Stratford Road 
up to Reynolda Road, and then it follows Reynolds Road 
northwest up to about Silas Creek and generally follows

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Silas Creek up the Reynolds Estate out to the Old Town 
Golf Course until it comes to Cherry-Marshall, and then 
back down Cherry-Marshall to Coliseum Drive and back west 
and generally follows the Children’s Home line south to 
tie in to about where the Southern Railway makes the 
borderline for the Carver Crest district, and then it comes 
south just off of Oak Street down to about 5th Street, I 
believe, and then ties back in to the eastern district as 
the line generally through the railroad line just east of 
the city. Now, portions of this district, for instance 
the Baptist Hospital complex now, has very few students.
The whole eastern portion of the district is generally 
business. lhis area is the Methodist—

Q When you say ’’this area", you’re talking about 
the sort of north central part?

A The north central part is made up of the Methodist 
Children's Home. The portion up in this general area was 
not developed at the time the district was assigned, and 
later it now has considerable business along in this area, 
with some apartment developments in this area, and generally 
their proportion of it is not developed. It has the golf 
course and Reynolds Estates in it.

Q Now, you referred to the Children's Home. I 
don't believe you show a school there, but there is actually 
a school at the Children's Home, isn’t there?

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A The Children's Home actually serves the district, 
and we have not drawn boundary lines on it, but the bound­
aries oi Children's Home are the Children's Home p operty 
itself.

Q Is that school owned by the school system?
A The school is owned by the Children's Home cor­

poration, ana the school is operated by us as a part of the 
State school system, but the Children's Home provides the 
school, the facilities and operational cost.

Q What is the pupil makeup of Brunson School?
A Brunson has 1 Indian, 135 Negro, 2 Oriental, 1 

Spanish, 5AO White, for a total of 679.
Q Since we have referred to the Children's Home 

School, what is the makeup of that school?
A Children's Home now has at the elementary level 

180 students and they are white.
Q South of Brunson, what is the next school district?
A Latham Elementary School is just south, and the 

expressway is generally the border on the north side.
Lockland Avenue is the approximate border on the west side, 
and Old Salisbury Road and Arcadia Avenue make the southern 
border, and generally north Main Street, or South Main 
Street, up until you get close to Salem College. Then it 
moves off through the College and up to generally the 
public works area, until it reaches the expressway there.

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Q That would be the public works area or the Salem 

Cemetery area?
A I believe it's through the cemetery area and not 

the public works area. Generally this area is somewhat 
like Brunson. It has three slighly separated residential 
areas serving the schools, one in the southeastern corner, 
one on the west, and a portion just north of the school.
And then the northern part of it gets generally into a 
business area similar to that in Brunson. So that the 
district for a relatively small school is fairly large for 
a central district, just as it is in the case of Brunson.
And the makeup of Latham is 3 Indians, 7 Negroes, 1 Oriental 
and 415 white, for a total of 426.

Q That school is located more or less in the center
of that district?

A Yes.
Q Now, the school immediately west of Lathem—
A Is Ardmore Elementary School on Miller Street, 

and it has the same general boundary on the east of Lockland 
Avenue. It follows Salem Creek and the old city limit 
boundary, and then goes north close to Ebert, just west of 
Ebert Street until it hits the old city limits line, and 
then goes west to roughly the creek which follows right on 
up through generally to hit Magnolia Avenue, as it goes 
through this portion; then follows Magnolia by way up

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1 diagonally east until it comes to just a point-- to a point 
just north of Fairway Drive, and through the back lot lines, 
I believe, over to Melrose Street, and then it follows 
Melrose north to just north of Rosewood, and then over to 
Miller Street, and north on Miller to Queen and closes the 
boundary generally on Queen Street.

Q What is that area as far as development is con­
cerned and the age of it and so forth?

A This residential area dates back—  it is not one 
the older sections of the city; it was built several 

years ago, and at this point there is not a great deal of 
development in this area itself because, except for the 
southern portion, it’s pretty well developed, and it has 
been for some time.

Q And that is a substantial portion of Ardmore, is
it?

A Yes.
0 It would have been developed probably how many 

years ago?
A Probably thirty or forty years ago. And the 

makeup of the school is 7 Negro, 2 Oriental, and 586 white, 
for a total of 595.

Q I i mediately west of Ardmore, what's the elementary
school district?

A Bolton Street Elementary School. It is located

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in the northeastern corner of the district, which really 
serves the western portion of Ardmore. The boundary line 
is on the east - I have already given you. On the west—  

on the north, it generally follows Hawthorne Road out until 
it crosses 158 and then becomes Old Vineyard Road out to 
1-40. It follows 1-40 out to a point—  well, it's a point 
in an open area - identifying streets - it's close to the 
point—  it goes south through an open area to come into 
the Southern Railroad at about Hughes Street. It follows 
about a quarter of a mile out this street, and then follows 
generally Burke Kill Road out into open country, and goes 
diagonally east to pick up the Armore Elementary boundary 
at the southern tip. Host of the development in the Bolton 
Street area at this point is in and around and Just east 
of the school, but there are several developments to the 
south and in the northern fringe. A portion of this is a 
business area, hospital complex, and so forth. The 
enrollment is 1 Negro and 520 whites, for a total of 521.

0 Immediately north of the Bolton and Ardmore areas 
is what school district?

A Moore Elementary is located on Knollwood Avenue 
and genersBLy the northern section of this district. The 
southern line has been described in the Ardmore and Bolton 
Elementary, and generally on the north side it follows the 
Interstate Expressway all the way into the Baptist Hospital

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complex, and then ties in with the other line at that point. 
This area is generally a little bit newer in development 
than the other portions of Ardmore, but it is really a part 
of the northern section of the Ardmore complex. It does 
have a considerable business development just north of the 
school on the expressway.

Q What is the composition of that school?
A We have 1 Oriental, 438 whites, for a total of

439.
Q Immediately north of Moore School is what school?
A Whitaker Elementary School, and the southern 

boundary of that is the Interstate Expressway. The eastern 
boundary is Stratford Road to Reynolda Road. Then it 
follows Reynolda Road north to Silas Creek Parkway. It 
follows Silas Creek Parkway down to Robinhood Road. It 
goes east on Robinhood Road to Wellington, and then follows 
Wellington south and through the Forsyth County Club Golf 
Course and through Hathaway Park until it ties in down at 
the Interstate Expressway again. Generally this is an 
older residential area, in the eastern portion of it, 
with considerable new development along the west, generally 
all the way up and down. And the enrollment here is 7 
Negro, 608 white, for a total of 615.

Q Now, what criteria were used in establishing the 
school boundary lines for this part of the school system.

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shown on Defendants’ Exhibit 25?
A Generally the boundary lines were determined by 

the size of the school and natural boundaries as often as 
possible, such as railways, highways, open spaces, and things 
of that nature, creeks sometimes came into play.

Was race a factor in determining those boundaries?
A Race was not a factor in determining the boundaries.
Q If you would take the stand again, sir. Mr. Ward,

I show you Defendants’ Exhibit 27 and ask if you would please
explain what that is.

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 27 
for identification.)

A This is a summary sheet showing the makeup of the 
total school system based upon the information that we have 
been discussing at this meeting. It was collected in 
December 1969.

MR. WOMBLE: I would like to offer this into
evidence.

THE COURT: Have you had an opportunity to examine
that, Mr. Stein? I will give you an opportunity.

MR. STEIR: I won't have any objection to this
exhibit.

THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence is Defendants' Exhibit 27.

(The document above referred to 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bit No. 27 for identification, was received in evidence.)

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Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Ward, referring to this 
exhibit 26, how many elementary schools are there in all?

A Forty-two.
Q Now, you have testified with respect to the 

Children's Home School. I don't believe there was any 
testimony with respect to the Children's Center. What kind 
of a school is that?

A Children's Center is a small school for the 
physically handicapped. Actually we do not operate the 
school except to provide the teachers. The rest of it is 
operated by the Children's Center, Incorporated.

Q
A
Q
A
Q

That is a private organization?
That's a private organization.
Who owns the school facility?
The Chilhen's Center.
And what is the racial composition of the children 

at the Children's Center at the present time?
A At the present time there are 4 Negro and 46 

white, for a total of 50.

THE COURT: You say the purpose of the school is
for what?

THE WITNESS: Primarily for the physically handi­
capped.

THE COURT: The physically handicapped.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Where is that located?

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A It is located on Coliseum Drive at Reynolda Road.
Q Now, how many elementary schools are all black 

in their pupil composition as of December of 1969?
A There were nine.
Q How many were all white?
A There were three.
Q Now, the sheet that you have there has a "plus 2". 

What does that have reference to?
A The "plus 2" has reference to the fact that two 

schools which are not all white have a racial makeup that 
does not include black. They are oriental or Indian.

Q How many junior high schools are there?
A There are fifteen junior high schools.
Q As of December 1969, December 19, 1969, how many 

junior high schools were there that were all black?
A There was one.
Q How many all white?
A Two.
Q With reference to the senior highs, how many 

total senior highs in the system?
A Ten.
Q And as of December 19, 1969, how many were all 

black?
A Three.
Q And how many all white?

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1 Mr. Ward, I show you now Defendants' Exhibit 29 
&no I ask you to please explain what thai mftp is?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 29 
for identification.)

This map shows the junior high school districts 
of the schools that are outside of the general City of 
Winston-Salem.

Q And Exhibit 28 is what?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 28 
for identification.)

A It shows the junior high school districts 
generally within the city.

Q Now, where you say these are within or outside 
of the city, do they actually follow corporate lines any 
more?

A I use the word "generally" because our school 
boundaries do not necessarily follow the city boundaries.

MR. WOMBLE: We want to offer those into evidence,
T-'-cr Honor.

THE COURT: 28 and 29?
CLERK IDOL: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Mr. Stein, have you had an opportunity
or do you want to reserve your objection?

MR. STEIN: No, sir.

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THE COURT: Let the record show that received into
0 .

the evidence are Defendants* Exhibits 28 and 29.
(The documents above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bits Nos. 28 and 29 for identifica­
tion, were received in evidence.)

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, please explain what 
Exhibit 30 is?

A Exhibit 30 is a map generally showing the high 
school districts outside of the City of Winston-Salem.

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 30 
for identification.)

Q How are they shown?
A They are shown by dashed lines separating the 

school districts, and the school is shown on that by a 
square block and the name.

Q Basically the same as with reference to the
elementary and junior high schools?

A Similar.
Q I also show you Defendants' Exhibit 31 and I ask 

you to explain what that is.

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 31 
for identification.)

A It is the same type of map for the high schools 
generally within the City of Winston-Salem.

MR. WOMBLE: We also offer these into evidence,

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Your Honor.
MR. STEIN: No objections.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendants'

Exhibits 30 and 31 are received into the evidence.
(The documents above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bits Nos. 30 and 31 for identifica­
tion, were received into evidence.)

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you Plaintiffs’ 
Exhibit 29 and ask you to explain what that map purports 
to show.

A Plaintiffs' Exhibit 69?
Q 29.
A 29 shows all of the schools and their boundaries 

for the entire school system on the same map. The lines 
identifying the elementary districts are dashed blue lines. 
The lines identifying the junior high districts are dashed 
green lines. And the lines identifying the high school 
districts are dashed yellow lines.

THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. You are talking
about Defendants' Exhibit 29?

MR. WOMBLE: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29.
THE WITNESS: It's not ours.
THE COURT: Repeat again the lines and the__

Mr. Stein has that in the plaintiffs' evidence.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, just so you know, this

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1 map was also prepared by the defendants.
THE COURT: Oh, I see.
THE WITNESS: We prepared this map and it indicates

on the map, Judge, the scale.
THE COURT: That is what I've been wanting.
MR. WOMBLE: We prepared it and furnished it to

them, and they introduced it. So it's in evidence.
Your Honor, I believe for this next series of questions 
that it would be very meaningful to the Court—  somehow 
or other we need to get the map closer to the bench.

THE COURT: I will come down there. We usually 
take a short recess at about this time. Let's do that 
now, and those of you who are interested in this case, 
if you want to smoke out in the hall, you may, and 
somebody will notify you at about the time that we 
are going to take back up so that you will know.

All right. Let's take a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ward, if you'll come
back to the stand.

MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I believe it might be
helpful if you did come down to where you could see the 
map.

THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Ward, you have explained

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the Plaintiffs* Exhibit 29. It purports to show the district 
boundary lines or the geographic attendance zone lines for 
all three schools, elementary, junior high and high school, 
and that the boundary lines are color coded as shown on the 
map. Generally speaking, what plan or pattern does the 
local school system follow in assigning children from elemen-- 
tary to junior high and on to high school?

A Our system generally is what we call a feeder 
pattern of certain elementaiy schools feeding certain junior 
high schools, and certain junior high schools to certain 
senior high schools. The basic pattern, if it could be 
followed, that we would desire throughout if modifications 
weren't necessary would be two elementary schools feeding 
a junior high school, and two junior high schools feeding a 
senior high school. This would be the ideal situation.

Q You have how many grades in elementary school?
A One through six.
Q And junior high school?
A Seven through nine.
Q And high school?
A Ten through twelve.
Q In round figures what proportion does that mean 

you all have in each of the school systems?
A A little more than fifty percent would be in 

elementary, and generally approximately one-fourth in either

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of the others. However, the drop-out rate for senior high
school would make the enrollment there a little bit smaller 
proportionately.

Q Now, generally speaking, what enrollment do you 
consider a good enrollment in a high school?

A Generally our recommendation is that it ought to 
be above 1,000 or 1,200. Twelve hundred would be preferred, 
and not to exceed 2,000.

Q How about junior high schools?
A Junior high, generally the preference would be

from about 750 to 1,200.
0 And elementary?
A Five hundred to about 750 would be generally 

acceptable.

Q Now, would you please take the districts for the 
various high schools as shown on the map and explain the 
high school boundaries for each high school, the boundaries 
for the junior highs that serve each high school, and then 
explain which elementary schools serve those junior highs.

A Then perhaps the easiest place to begin would be 
on the west. Your Honor, this is shown on about the third 
sheet, and the junior highs and senior highs on the next 
page. The juniors are at the top and the senior highs down 
at the bottom. And we might start with the west, southwest 
district. Generally along the southwestern section of the

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county, you have the senior high school district for West 
Senior High, and I have outlined the elementary school 
districts, so I will not attempt to follow just the specific 
outlines of the district, but point out the schools that 
feed the junior and the senior high schools. So let’s look 
first at the Southwest Junior High.

Q Where is it located?
A It's in the southwestern section of the county 

generally.

Q Could you point it out on the map?
A It follows—
Q Point out the high school.
A The Southwest High School is here on the Lewis-

ville-Clemmonsville Road, just about a mile north of 
Clemmons. Southwest Junior High and West Senior High 
campuses are adjacent at that location, and both of them 
serve the same territory, and the feeder schools for
Southwest Junior High School are Clemmons Elementary on the 
south—

Q You m:git take that slow enough so the Judge can 
get that.

A Then Lewisville Elementary just north of that, 
and Vienna Elementary. And in the eastern section, South 
Fork Elementary—

G When you say eastern section, you’re talking about

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section—

A The eastern section of the Southwest Junior High 
district. Now, all four of these elementary schools feed 
into Southwest Junior High School, and the composition of 
that is 45 Negro and 621 white, for a total of I»m sorry,
I'm on the wrong one - 19 Negro, 1,248 white, and 1,267 
total.

Q That is the southwestern part of Forsyth County, 
isn't it?

A That's correct. Now, all of the students from 
Southwest Junior High attend West Senior High. So the same 
feeder pattern follows right on through the same district, 
the same location. The enrollment at the Senior High is 
23 Negro, 1,056 white, for a total of 1,079.

Q All right. Now, the next high school attendance 
area to the east of your West area?

A I think it might be well just to point out that 
we will talk about the Parkland Senior High School district 
and then talk about the junior high schools within the 
district. The Parkland district takes in all of the southern 
section of the city and the county, and it borders generally 
on the south, generally on the West and the Southwest 
District, and I will discuss first the Griffith Junior 
High district, and the junior high district at Griffith is 
fed only by Griffith Elementary School. So the boundaries

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of the Griffith Elementary and Griffith Junior High Schools 
are the same, and the student population of Griffith Junior 
High School is 525 white. The Junior High School district I 
adjacent to the Griffith is the Philo Junior High School i
district, and the junior high school is just north of the 
Konnoak Elementary School in the southwestern corner 
generally of that district. And the two feeder elementary 
schools to Philo Junior High School are Konnoak Elementary 
and South Park Elementary, with roughly a third of the 
Latham Elementary district, a portion south of Salem Creek, 
also going into Philo Junior High School.

Q So the Latham Elementary School district is 
divided into two districts for the purpose of attendance 
lines, junior high school?

A That's generally correct, yes. Now, the enroll­
ment at Philo is 19 Negro and 638 white. That's on the same 
page.

THE COURT: You say Latham Elementary is divided
into two districts?

THE WITNESS: It is one district for elementary
but as a feeder program the district is divided into 
different junior highs.

THE COURT: Have him tell me somewhere about that
division line, Mr. Womble. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Let me just do it now.

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-71

THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. V/omble) It follows what course 

geographically?
A The southeastern section of the Latham district, 

the portion south of Salem Creek, is the portion of the 
district which is assigned to Philo Junior High. Salem 
Creek is the dividing line.

G Why was Latham district divided into two parts 
for purposes of feeding into the junior high school system?

A When Latham School was built, a portion of the 
South Park and tie Ardmore School districts, and of the 
former Granville Elementary School, the districts were 
combined to make Latham. The geographic relationship and 
the former direction that these students traveled cause the 
Board to agree to an optional district at that time and 
later formed a firm one down Salem Creek, and the rest of 
them are assigned across the creek to Dalton.

Q All right.
A Moving on east a^d still a portion of the Parkland 

district is Hill Junior High School, and Hill Junior High 
School is served by three elementary -schools - Easton, 
Waughtown, and Forest Park, .md generally all of the ele­
mentary schools m  those three districts attend Hill Junior 
High School.

d You say generally; actually all of the students

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in those areas would be assigned_

A All of them are assigned to Hill. And the makeup j

of Hill is 41 Negro, 530 white, for a total of 571. Then I
the three—

a Did you give the figures as showing to the makeup 
of Philo Junior High?

A I think so.
THE COURT: 19 and 638.

0 (By Mr. Womble) Okay.
A The feeder pattern then for Parkland Senior High 

School, which is located in the district at the edge of 
the Griffith district on 150 - North Carolina Highway 150 - 
is for Griffith Junior High, Philo Junior High, and Hill 
Junior High, and the enrollment at Parkland is 4 Indian,
61 Negro, 1 Spanish, 1,453 white - for a total of 1,522.

THE COURT: That feeds Philo and what? v
THE WITNESS: Hill and Griffith.

0 (By Mr. Womble) All right. Now, what is the 
next one on the perimeter of the county, moving east?

A As we move on to the east and consider the East 
Senior High School district, it takes generally the whole 
eastern part of the county and has three Junior high schools 
feeding East Senior High School, and East Senior High School 
is Just off Interstate - about two miles west.

G Interstate what?

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A Interstate 40, two miles west, or east of the 
city. If we first look at the Glenn Junior High School 
district, which covers the southern portion of the east 
section of the county, it is fed by Union Cross and Sedge 
Garden Elementary Schools, and the enrollment at Glenn is 
3 Indian, 2 Negro, and 768 white, for a total of 773. And 
then Northeast is Kemersville Elementary, is Kemersville 
Junior High School. That is fed by Kemersville Elementary 
School - only one elementary school feeding this Junior 
high, and the enrollment at Kemersville Junior High is 
24 Negro, and 500 white, for a total of 524. And then in 
the northern section is Walkertown Junior High, fed by 
Walkertown Elementary and Petree Elementary. And the 
Walkertown Junior High enrollment is 1 India, 45 Negro,
621 white, for a total of 667. That leaves Glenn Junior 
High, Kemersville Junior High, and Walkertown Junior High 
feeding East Senior High.

THE COURT: Now, wait Just a minute. Walkertown
Junior High—

THE WITNESS: East Senior High is fed by the three
Junior highs.

THE COURT: I see.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Walkertown—
A East is the senior high for the whole eastern 

district.

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Q
A

A

Q

East is fed by what junior highs?
By Glenn, Kernersvllle, and Walkertown.
THE COURT: All right.
If we follow on around—
(By Mr. Womble) What is your pupil population at

East?

A East Senior High pupil population is 65 Negro,
147U white, for a total of 1539.

Q All right.
A If we move on to the northwest, the Mineral 

Springs Junior High School district covers the district 
mentioned yesterday for Prince Ibraham, Oak Summit and 
Mineral Springs Elementary Schools. These three schools do 
not have separate elementary districts, but ail three of 
them feed into Mineral Springs Junior High School. The 
makeup at Mineral Springs is 2 Indian 28 Negro, 888 white, 
for a total of 918.

THE COURT: Mineral Springs is fed again by what?
THE WITNESS: By the elementary schools, Oak

Summit, Ibraham, and Mineral Springs Elementary.
THE COURT: All right.

A The next junior high in the North district and 
west of the Mineral Springs District is Northwest Junior 
High on Murray Road, and it is fed by Rural Hall Elementary 
School, by Old Richmond Elementary School, and by the portion

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1 of Old Town Elementary School generally north of North 
Carolina Highway 67. Now, the enrollment at Northwest is 
107 Negro, 1 Oriental, 959 white, for a total of 1,067.
In addition to that, we have the Hanes Junior High district, 
which is south in a portion of the northern part of the 
city. The southern portion of the North High School 
district. Hanes Junior High is fed by North Elementary 
and Lowrance. Now, these three junior highs feed North 
Senior High, but we have a minor exception here at the senior 
high level, and let me give you the figures on Hanes, and 
then I ’ll talk about this exception. The figures on Hanes 
are 500 Negro, 13 white, for a total of 513. The North 
Senior High School district is made up of the Mineral 
Springs Junior High, the Northwest Junior High, and the 
Hanes Junior High districts, plus a portion of the Kimberly 
Park Elementary School district, and this is an exception 
to the general plan. The portion of the elementary district 
east of Cherry-Marshall and north of 20th Street, this 
portion of Kimberly Elementary is also assigned to North 
High School.

THE COURT: Where does the other portion of
Kimberly Park?

THE WITNESS: The other portion - well, this
portion and the remaining portion of Kimberly Park 
attends Paisley Junior High, and the rest of the

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students go to Reynolds Senior High, at the senior high
level.
u (By Mr. Womble) Now—
k The total composition now of North is 1 Indian,

30b Negro, 1460 white, for a total of 1766.
Now, Mr. Ward, when Hanes was built - let’s see,

Hanes is 
A 
Q 
A
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of Hanes 
A
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located where in the city?
In the northern portion of tho city.
What race did it serve when it was first built?
It served the white.
And I believe you testified that the composition 

now is bOO Negro and 13 white?
Yes.
Over what period of time has the pupil population

of Hanes been shifting from white to Negro?
A Generally that has occurred since 1965.
0 State whether or not—  well, what has the pupil 

mix in the school been during the period of transition? 
Did it shift all at once?

A It shifted gradually over about a three—year 
period from white to almost all black, over a period of 
about three year's.

u Where did the pupils in this area - that is the 
Hanes area - formerly go to high school?

n There was a high school at Hanes. It was at one

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time a high school, and the pupils went to Hanes Senior 
High.

Q And it has now been made a junior high, is that
right?

A It was closed, the high school was closed, I 
believe in about '63 and made into a junior high school.

Now, you mentioned the Kimberly Park area and 
the fact that that elementary school district is divided 
for purposes of feeding into the high schools. What high 
school formerly served the Kimberly Park and the Carver 
Crest Elementary Scnools?

A Paisley Senior High served this area.
Q Where was Paisley Senior High located?
A It is located on Thurman Street, or just off

Thurman Street, at Taft.
Q Was that a separate high school, or was that a 

combination senior high school and junior high school?
A It was a combination junior and senior high 

school in the same building. We had separate principals, 
but it was all in the same building.

Q Is there any high school curriculum at Paisley 
any more?

A Not at this time.
Q That is no senior high school?
A No senior high.

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Q Y/hen was that senior high school curriculum at
Paisley dropped?

A Two years ago. Really about a year and a half 
at this time when Paisley Senior High School was closed 
and the students who were then attending Paisley were 
assigned - the group in the northern portion to North Senior 
High; the group in the western portion generally to Reynolds 
High School, and a few from, I believe, the North Elementary 
district of Paisley were assigned to Atkins High School.

Q So thafcthe closing of Paisley Senior High School 
materially increased the number of Negro students attending 
both Reynolds High School and North High School, is that 
correct?

A Yes, it did, several hundred.
Q Do you remember about how many in each school?
A Somewhere between 250, I believe, and 300 at each

one of the schools.
Q All right. What is your next high school district0
A If we continue on with the general outlying 

districts, then the next school would be Mount Tabor Senior 
High School on Petree Road, just north of Polo Road, and 
the Jefferson Junior High School is the only junior high 
school in the Mount Tabor district. The makeup of each of 
these two schools is slightly different from others.
Jefferson Junior High School only contains grades seven and

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eight, and Mount Tabor Senior High School contains nine, 
ten, eleven and twelve. And the junior high school of 
Jefferson is fed by Sherwood Forest and Speas Elementary 
Schools, with the portion of Old Town Elementary district 
generally south of North Carolina #67. And the pupil 
population at Jefferson is 1 Negro and 815 white, for a 
total of 816. That is just at the two grades. And the 
same district makes up Mount Tabor Senior High District.
1 Negro and 1219 whites, for a total of 1220.

Q Now, you have already made some reference to 
Reynolds High School in connection with your explanation 
about Hanes and Kimberly Park and North. Please go ahead 
and give the details on the attendance areas served by 
Reynolds High, both at the elementary and junior high 
levels.

A The Reynolds High District generally is served 
by Dalton Junior High, by Wiley Junior High, and most of 
Paisley Junior High with the exception of the section of 
Kimberly Park Elementary School which was assigned to North. 
The Dalton Junior High School is fed by Ardmore Elementary, 
Moore Elementary, and Bolton Elementary, and the portion of 
Latham Elementary district north of Salem Creek.

THE COURT: Dalton Junior is fed from Bolton__
TIE WITNESS: Ardmore, Moore and the portion of

Latham north of the creek.

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THE COURT: All right.
A Wiley Junior High School is fed by Brunson Ele­

mentary and Whitaker, and Paisley Junior High School is fed 
by Carver Crest and Kimberly Park.

Q (By Mr. Womble) What are the compositions of 
those?

A The composition of Dalton Junior High is 1 Oriental 
829 white, for a total of 830. Wiley, 2 Indian, 183 Negro,
2 Spanish, 622 white, for a total of 809. And Paisley has 
552 Negro. Now, all three of these feed Reynolds Senior 
High, with the exception of the portion of Kimberly Park 
which we pointed out for North.

Q And the pupil makeup at Reynolds?
A The pupil makeup at Reynolds High School is 1 

Indian, 255 Negro, 1 Oriental, 1456 white, for a total of 
1713.

Q Now, Anderson?
A The Anderson district is due east of Reynolds, and 

Anderson Junior and Senior High Schools are in the same 
building, and Anderson Junior High School is served by Diggs 
and Mebane Elementary Schools. The high school and the 
junior high school have the same district, and they are 
operated as one combination school, and the total enrollment 
for the junior and the senior high school, grades 7 through 
12, is 976 Negro.

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Q If you divided that between junior high and the 

high school, the senior high students, would it be more or 
less fifty-fifty?

A The enrollment would be slightly higher for junior 
high school, possibly 500 at the junior high, 476 at the 
senior high.

THE COURT: In other words, the 976 includes both
junior and senior high schools?

THE WITNESS: Yes, all of the six grades.
u (By Mr. Womble) Now, with respect to the Anderson 

Junior-Senior High School, what plans did you have for that 
school in 1968 and for the expenditure of bond money which 
would have an effect on that school?

A The plan at that time was to leave Anderson Junior 
High in the present building, which is overcrowded by the 
combination of the two, and build an addition to Parkland, 
and the students who are now attending Anderson Senior High 
would then attend Parkland Senior High. Plans had gone 
forward enough until a preliminary plan had been completed 
by architects for use by the Board when the suit stopped 
the possibility of going forward. If that had continued, 
the school - Anderson Senior High School - could have been 
discontinued in oeptember of 1969, and these students would 
have been attending Parkland now.

Q So that would have had what effect on the number

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1 of Negroes attending Parkland High School?
A Well, it would have increased it by approximately

450.

Q Now, what is immediately north of Anderson Junior-
Senior High School?

A Just north of Anderson is Atkins Senior High 
School on Cameron Avenue at 12th Street, and it is fed by 
Kennedy Junior High School, which is west of Atkins and 
just off the 9th Street Exit on 52, the north side of 52, 
and both of these schools serve the same general area. The 
elementary schools that feed into Kennedy are Skyland,
Brown, North Elementary, Fairview and 14th Street, and the 
makeup of Kennedy was 1,042 Negro, 1 white, for a total of 
1,043. And Kennedy alone serves Atkins, which covers the 
same district, and the makeup of Atkins is 1135 white - 
I mean Negro.

Q What high school district is immediately north of 
the Atkins district?

A Just north of Atkins is Carver Junior and Carver 
Senior High School, or in the same large building with 
Carver Elementary School, and the district for all three of 
these schools is the same. So Carver Elementary feeds into 
the junior high school and into the senior high school, and 
it is a combination school similar to Anderson. The 
enrollment in grades 7 through 12 is 499, and the breakdown

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1 is roughly half and half, probably a few more at the Junior 
high level.

Q Now, that again is the high school, or rather it 
is the school that was built about 1950 to serve all of the 
Negro students in the Forsyth County school administrative 
unit outside of the city of Winston-Salem?

A That is correct.
Q Now, what if any plans did you have in 1968 with 

respect to Carver School?
A At that time, it was planned to close both Carver 

Junior High and Carver Senior High, and additions had been 
planned for Walkertown Junior High, and the preliminary 
plans had been drawn, so that the Junior high school students 
at Carver could attend 'Walkertown Junior High, and an addi­
tion had been planned, the preliminary drawings had been 
made, for an addition at East High School, and the senior 
high school students in the Carver area would attend East 
Senior High School.

Q Why was that not completed?
A W'hen the first court case was brought and we could 

not use bond money, then we could not continue with the 
project. If we could have, both of these schools would have 
been closed as of last September and these students would 
have been attending the Walkertown Junior and East Senior 
High School at this time.

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Q

-7

tad that would have increased the Negro enrollment 
at Walkertown by approximately how many?

A Roughly 250.

0 And at East high School by about how many?
A About the same number, about 250.

M u  W0MBLE: Did the Court want to ask Mr. Ward
anything further about the map?

THE COURT: I believe not.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendants 
Exhibit. 27. based on the testimony you have Just given, does 
the pupil summary identified as Defendants' Exhibit 27 

then show the numbers of students at each level, both black
and white, where there is a mixing of the races in the 
schools?

A Yes, it does.

Q How many blacks, SS of December 19, were attending
school in mixed schools where whites were in the majority?

A 2,025.

Q How many black were attending schools that were
uixed racially but with a black majority

MP- STEm: Your Hon“h. I would request counsel
to clarify the question. T would li <e to know now -
I know it's not my turn to cross examine - well, for 
instance, c e  one white child__

THE COURT: Kennedy. Can I help you out?

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MR. STEIN: Kennedy, right. It’s a mixing of
a thousand-so black kids there. I just want to under­
stand what these statistics mean.

THE COURT: Do you understand so that you can
clarify that?

THE WITNESS: Yes. This does include any school
that has any number.

THE COURT: Now, let me go back and catch up a
little bit. You are speaking from Exhibit 27, are you 
not?

MR. WOMBLE: Yes.
THE COURT: Now, the first figure that he gave

was a txiousand—some. Where is that on here?
THE WITNESS: That was 2,025. That's about the

middle of the paper.
THE COURT: I see. Blacks in mixed schools with

white majority. Now, I want to understand the point 
that Mr. otein was making. I don't understand what you 
all straightened out about this. What was your question, 
Mr. Stein?

MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I was pointing to Kennedy
Junior High School, which was shown on the last page
of Defendants' Exhibit 26.

THE COURT: Yes.
MR. STEIN: Which shows 1,042 black students and

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1 one white student.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR* STEIN: I was trying to see whether these

1,042 black students are included in this next figure 
he's about to testify about.

THE COURT: Oh, I follow. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I've answered the question.

That is included. We have not used any percentages or 
anything; we have used numbers of pupils.

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble, go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) So based on those figures then, 

there were how many blacks in mixed schools where the blacks 
were in the majority?

A There were 3,160.
Q Then that made a total of how many blacks who were 

in schools that were integrated to some degree?
A 5,185.
Q Then with respect to—  now, that was out of total 

of how many blacks?
A That's out of a total of a little over thirteen 

thousand. Actually the figure is 13,879.
Q Now, how many white students as of that date,

December 19, 1969, were attending mixed schools in which 
whites were in a majority?

A There were 32,608.

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Q

-733

And how many white students were attending mixed
schools in which blacks were in a majority?

A 193.
Q So that made a total of how many white students 

that were attending schools which were integrated in some 
degree?

A 32,801.
Q Out of a total of how many?
A 36,521.
Q How many blacks were attending all black schools,

schools in which the students were all black students?
A 8,541.
Q And how many approximately white students were 

attending schools that were populated by all white students?
A 2,915.
Q Then that breakdown shows the numbers or approxi­

mate numbers at each school grade level, does it?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Ward, does the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County

School System utilize mobile classrooms?
A Yes, it does.
Q You have referred to the fact that for the imple­

mentation of the free choice of transfer policy, each school 
has a rated capacity. Please state whether or not the rated 
capacity includes mobile classrooms?

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A Mobile classrooms are not included in determining
the capacity of a school.

Q Are transfers allowed when schools exceed the 
rated capacity from one attendance area to another?

A No, they are not.
Q What is the basis on which mobile classrooms are

added at a school?
A If the school attendance area is growing rapidly 

enough until the students cannot be housed within the area, 
then mobile classrooms are added for the benefit of the 
people who live within the area.

Q You testified, I believe yesterday, that there had 
been a desegregation of activities in connection with the 
operation of the schools. What does the school system do 
insofar as athetics is concerned?

A After the agreement with HEW, I believe in 1965, 
that we would operate a unitary school system, we combined 
all of our athletic activities and other programs and have 
operated them without regard to race in any manner since 
that time.

Q Does this involve inter-scholastic athletics as 
well as intra-mural?

A Basically at the junior and senior high school 
level, our teams are involved in playing other schools, and 
at the junior high school level, when we made the change, all

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of our schools have been playing at the junior high school 
level in the same conference with each other with no dis­
tinction as to race. At the senior high school level, we 
have moved in that direction as conferences have allowed 
that. Atkins High School, I believe, has joined the don- 
ference about two years ago. Anderson has just recently 
joined. Atkins went into the 4-A; Anderson has now joined 
the 3-A conference. And we have helped both of these schools 
to get into the conference as rapidly as we could.

Q What do you mean by the conference?
A The makeup of high school athletics consists of 

three or four different conferences and districts for schools 
of different sizes, and the larger—  the conference for the 
largest size is 4-A, the next largest is 3-A, and in this 
area we are speaking of the 4-A conference for the larger 
schools and the 3-A for the schools of the next size.

Q What geographic areas do the conferences cover?
A Generally the 4-A covers Forsyth, Guilford, and

one or two counties to the south, probably including Salis­
bury and Lexington. I believe the 3—A conference covers a 
little bit different territory.

Q But is not just Forsyth County?
A It is not just the Forsyth County.

THE COURT: Let's see now. You only have one 4-A?
THE WITNESS: Yes, we have a number of 4—A's. All

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the other large high schools like North, Reynolds, 
Parkland, and East, were already in the 4-A, and after 
this point Atkins has now—  has been playing in a 
Negro conference. It then moved into the regular 4-A 
conference.

THE COURT: And Atkins is in the 4-A now?
THE WITNESS: Atkins is in the 4-A, I believe

playing its third year now in the 4-A conference.
THE COURT: Which means its schedules—  I mean

in the scheduling, Atkins could play the others?
THE WITNESS: It's scheduled Just like Reynolds,

North, or any other school.
THE COURT: And they likely would play one

another?
THE WITNESS: They have been playing one another.

This is the third year.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Of course, there are other 4-A 

conferences across the state?
A There are a number of divisions of 4-A conferences. 
Q What about other activities? Has there been 

segregation of other activities in the schools, or have 
they also been desegregated?

A All other activities were desegregated in the 
same year and in the same manner.

MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I think that's all that

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-737

I care to ask Mr. Ward at this time.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, would you prefer to start

your cross examination or for us to come back fifteen 
minutes earlier? We've got about fifteen minutes to 
work, or we can work now and come back at 2:00, or 
we can stop now and come back at 1:45. Which would 
you prefer?

MR. STEIN: Whatever the Court would prefer. I
think that my preference would be to wait until after 
lunch. I spoke with Mr. Vanore at the break, and we 
discussed whether he would go first or I would go 
first, and I thought that it might be easier if he 
went first and then I could pick up all my cross 
examination.

THE COURT: I appreciate your calling that to my
attention. I have you people come here and then I 
ignore you. You are entitled to ask some questions, 
any examination that you wish. Do you wish to ask some 
questions, Mr. Vanore?

Ml;. VANORE: Yes, I would like to. It may take
about half an hour or forty-five minutes.

THE COURT: Well, let's see. How about Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, I have some questions.

Mine might not possibly take that long. If it would be 
possible to come back later.

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THE COURT: Who did you nominate first as the
defendant here, Fir. Stein? The Forsyth County Board 
of Commissioners? Well, I'll tell you. Let's come 
back at 1:45, and you appear first, Mr. Price, and you 
may ask whatever questions you wish, and then Mr. 
Vanore. I mean after we come back.

MR. PRICE: If it please the Court, due to our
schedule, Mr. Ligon is scheduled to go back at 2:00, 
and I have another hearing at 2:00 o ’clock. So if it's 
going to begin, I would prefer at 2:00 so he won't 
have a transition where I start.

THE COURT: I want to utilize our time, so I will
let Mr. Vanore go first, and he will likely carry over 
until Mr. Ligon arrives, and if not, we will give him 
time to get here.

MR. PRICE: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until 1:45.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above entitled case 

was adjourned, to reconvene at 1:45 p.m.)

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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Mr, Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, there are one or a few

other questions I ’d like to ask Mr. Ward.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I asked you about the 
criteria used in establishing the elementary school lines. 
What criteria was used in establishing the Junior and 
senior high school attendance area lines?

A Generally the Junior and senior high school lines 
follov, the elementary school lines and are established in 
about the same way.

Q Now, was race a factor in establishing the lines?
A With one or two exceptions at the high school

level, it was not a factor. A year and a half ago, when 
Paisley Senior High School was closed and the students 
assigned to North and Reynolds High School, race was a 
factor in establishing the lines.

Q How was it a factor? In other words, what was the 
purpose of the new lines that were drawn when Paisley was 
closed?

A The lines were drawn in such a manner that a sub­
stantial number of Negro students would be sent to North
High School and also a substantial number to Reynolds High 
School.

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<

0 Mr. Ward, the order signed by the Court earlier 
thic osjc.tso \h*t\ the faculty be reassigned by the 23rd
of January, tomorrow, and not later than February 1st, so 
as to achieve a ratio approximately the same race-wise as 
the ratio of black and white faculty members throughout the 
system. What was the ratio within the system up to this 
time during the current school year?

A Approximately fifteen percent of the faculty was 
working across racial lines.

Q What is the total faculty?
A About 2,100.
Q And what is the approximate number of black and 

the approximate number of white teachers?
A I don't recall the number of each one. The total

was close to 300 working across the lines.
Q Do you have the exhibit that has the pupils and 

faculty numbers?
THE COURT: I took the exhibits to look through

them, and my clerk has gone for them. He’ll be here in 
just a moment. Now, when you say "across lines", Mr. 
Ward, you mean that a teacher was teaching in a school 
where his or her race was not predominant?

THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: While Mr. Womble is getting to that,

what does the term I see used in decisions mean, as you

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-741-

understand it, the term "clustering schools"? What 
does that mean in an educator's language?

THE WITNESS: Clustering of schools is not a term
that has been commonly used in connection with the 
desegregation of schools. I would assume that it means 
using several schools in combination and a distribution 
of the students throughout the total number of schools 
involved in the cluster.

THE COURT: That isn't the nature of—  what they
have said in the nature of pairing?

THE WITNESS: Pairing would be two, using two
schools. There are some other plans, notably the 
Berkeley, California plan, that uses three. I would 
assume a cluster would mean the same approach but you 
would use more than three schools.

THE COURT: That is probably some of the Judiciary
terminology and not an educator's.

THE WITNESS: It hasn't been commonly used.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendants' 

Exhibit 26, that shows the number of faculty and the racial 
makeup of the faculty. Could you Just state what that is?

A This is a copy of the summary report made in 
December.

Q What are those figures as to the faculty composi­
tion?

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A I t  shows t h a t  we have 592 N eg ro , 1 O r ie n ta l ,  2

Spanish-American, 1611 white, for a total of 2,206.
Q Now, what is the present status of the work to 

reassign faculty as of the beginning of the second semester 
of the current school year?

A Assignments have been made to staff members, or 
faculty members, in the approximate ratio requested by the 
Court, and the School Board is now holding hearings for 
teachers who would like to raise an objection to this 
transfer.

Q When you say "raise objection", do you mean indi­
vidual appeals?

A Individual appeals to the transfer. The Board 
hopes to conclude those hearings by Saturday, and a full 
report could be made of the status perhaps by Monday.
Monday would be the first day in which the teachers would be 
in their new situation, across the lines.

Q Approximately how many teachers are involved in 
the transfer of teachers at this time?

A It is approximately 425 now.
Q Would they be equally divided race-wise?
A Yes, they would. It is an exchange proposition, 

so there would be an equal number on each side.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, with the permission of

the Court, we would like to plan to submit to the Court

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and put into evidence in this case the transfers when 
they are finalized, and we would expect to do that 
then the first of the week, on Monday.

THE COURT: I would want those with copies to
the plaintiffs.

MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Have you finished?
MR. WOMBLE: I think that’s all.
THE COUilT: Mr. Ward, there was a motion made

here about extending the time to file a plan from the 
February 1st date yesterday. I inquire of you - and 
one of the reasons was that the School Board was work­
ing on many matters, as I can certainly understand, 
but how many teachers have appealed to the Board for 
hearing with reference to this transfer, and when are 
those hearings being conducted?

THE WITNESS: The hearings were conducted on
Tuesday afternoon from 4:00 to 6:30, and from 7:30 
until 12:00 o'clock on Tuesday night; again last night 
from 7.30 until 11:00 o'clock. They will be continued 
Friday afternoon at 3:00 o'clock, and on Saturday 
morning at 9:00 o'clock. It appears now that there 
might be some fifty to sixty total who will appeal.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ligon, you may examine
this witness.

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-744-

MR. LIGON: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: No, I believe in view of that, do you

mind going first, Hr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I certainly don't, Your Honor.

FURTHER EXAMINATION
q  (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendant 

School Board's Exhibit No. 18, I believe you testified 
yesterday afternoon that that is the present plan of dese­
gregation which was adopted by your Board for the 1969-70
school year?

A That's correct.
Q I believe you also testified yesterday that under 

this plan all pupils are assigned to a school within a 
specific attendance zone with the freedom of choice to 
transfer to another school offering the same grade, so long 
as there is capacity at that particular school?

A That's correct.
Q Who approved the adoption of the present desegre­

gation plan?
A The School Board, the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County 

Board of Education.
0 Before the plan was adopted by the Winston-Salem/ 

Forsyth County Board of Education, was it first submitted 
to either the State Board of Education or the Superintendent 
of Public Instruction for approval?

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-745

A No, it was not.
Q Why was it not done, Mr. Ward?
A Because the State Board of Education and the 

State Superintendent have no jurisdiction over the plan.
Q How long has the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County 

Board used the attendance zones as the means of assigning 
the students?

A Since the school system was consolidated in 1963.
q Now, I believe you testified that from time to 

time certain changes are made in the attendance zones?
A That's correct.
Q Now, who approves the changes in the attendance 

zones?
A The Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education.
Q Now, prior to a change in attendance zones, do you 

submit the change to - the proposed change, to either the 
State Board of Education or the Superintendent of Public 
Instruction?

A No, we do not.
Q I believe also that you testified that certain 

requests for transfer had been approved by the Winston-Salem/ 
Forsyth County Board of Education?

A That is correct.
Q Now, the local Board of Education approves the 

transfer without first seeking the advice or approval of any

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-746-

state agency, is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Mr. Ward, if it became necessary to alter your 

present method of assigning pupils, who would ordinarily 
determine the method used to assign pupils within your 
administrative unit?

A The Board of Education.
Q The local Board of Education?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Who has the responsibility of hiring principals 

and teachers for your local school administrative unit?
A The administrative staff with the approval of the

local Board of Education.
Q Is it ncessary before a teacher or principal is 

hired to gain the approval by the State Board of Education 
or the Superintendent of Public Instruction?

A No, it is not.
Q Mr. Ward, who determines when a school building 

is needed in your school administrative unit?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Who determines where the building will be located?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Before locating, or before picking a particular 

location upon which a school building is going to be built, 
do you gain the approval of either the State Board of

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Education or the Superintendent of Public Instruction?
A No, we do not.
G I believe you do, before a school building is 

built, send plans to the State Division of School Planning, 
is that correct?

A That is correct.
G I believe also that the only reason that the plans 

are sent are for the approval of structural soundness of 
the school building, is that correct?

A Yes, sir.
Q Turning now to school bus routes, Mr. Ward, who 

has the responsibility of establishing or altering a parti­
cular school bus route?

A The local administrative staff with the approval
of the Board of Education, the local Board of Education.

Q From time to time, do you counsel with anyone, the 
State Department of Public Instruction, as to school bus 
routes?

A Yes, we seek information from the Department of 
Transportation.

Q Do they give you advice from time to time as to 
where a school bus route should be located?

A Yes, they do.
Q Are you bound to follow their advice, Mr. Ward?
A No, we are not.

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-748

Q Mr. Ward, does the school system receive funds 
from the State for the operation of the public schools in 
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Unit?

A Yes, we do.
Q What are those funds used for?
A The bulk of the funds for teacher salaries, but

other operational costs.
Q I believe you testified earlier that your office 

no longer keeps any records which show the racial composi­
tion of the student body or the faculty employed by the 
local school administrative unit, is that correct?

A That’s correct.
Q And if you ever need that information, you have 

to go to the individual principals to obtain that?
A That's correct.
Q Do you submit the prescribed forms to the State 

Board of Education before you receive state funds?
A Yes, we do.
Q Now, would any of these forms reflect the racial 

composition of either your student body or your faculty?
A No, they do not.
Q So the State Board of Education would have no way 

of knowing how many black teachers you employed or white 
teachers, or how many black students you had in your school 
administrative unit, would they?

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-749

A Not through state forms.
MR. VANORE: I don’t think I have any further

questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon, I realize you have Just

arrived. Are you ready for any questions you might have
MR. LIGON: Yes, Your honor. If it please the

Court, I only have three or four questions.
THE COURT: All right.

FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Ligon) Mr. Ward, along the same question­

ing of Mr. Vanore, you have testified concerning the geo­
graphical boundaries of the school districts. I will ask you 
if the Board of County Commissioners had anything to do at 
all with the establishment of those boundaries?

A No, they did not.
Q You have testified concerning the assignment of 

students in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school system.
I will ask you if the Board of County Commissioners had 
anything at all to do with the assignment of those students?

A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the employment of

teachers within the Forsyth County School System. I will 
ask you if the Board of County Commissioners had anything at 
all to do with the selection of the teachers?

A No.

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1 Q Or the assignment of the teachers?
A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the right of students 

to seek reassignment, and upon seeking reassignment for the 
students to be considered for reassignment. I'll ask you 
if the Board of County Commissioners had anything at all to 
do with this?

A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the school bus 

routes. I'll ask you if the Board of County Commissioners 
had anything at all to do with the determination of the 
school bus routes?

A No, it did not.
Q Finally, you have testified concerning the selec­

tion of school sites. I'll ask you if the Board of County 
Commissioners had anything at all to do with the selection 
of school sites?

A No, it did not.
Q Did the Board of County Commissioners at any time

encourage and direct the Board of Education with respect to
these matters we have just covered?

A No, it did not.
MR. LIGON: That's all I have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Stein?

CROSS EXAMINATION

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7S- /'ll

Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, do you have there a 
copy of Defendants' Exhibit 26, the recent statistical 
matters that were introduced?

A Yes, sir.
G Do you also have a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 27 

there? That's the pupil summary?
THE COURT: Are you going to question him at

length about some of these exhibits?
MR. STEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: I would just like to see if there was

an extra copy; it would be helpful to me. He's got 
to have a copy, but if you don't, it will be all right.

THE WITNESS: I believe that I have copies here
so that I could give the Court a copy.

THE COURT: All right. Do you have both?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.

G (By Mr. Stein) I would like to clarify some of 
the statements in Defendants' Exhibit 27, so that I am sure 
that I understand what it means, and so that I am sure the 
Court understands what it means. Now, it says here that 
there are 49 of the 68 schools - or 67 schools - in the 
system where there is some racial mix. "Some racial mix" 
means there, I take it, wherever there is at least one 
person, one student, of the opposite race attending, one

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minority student attending a school where there is a majority 
race of another race?

A That is correct.
Q I ask you to turn to Defendants' Exhibit 26, On 

the first page we see the first school is Ardmore School, 
which lists 7 Negro students, 2 Oriental students, and 586 
white students. By this definition, it's a school with 
some mix. Is that correct?

A Yes.
Q And the same is true about the Konnoak School, 

where there is one Negro student and 550 white students?
A Yes.
Q And I ask you whether the Moore School on page 

two, where 1 Orinetal - yes, 1 Oriental student attends 
together with 458 white students. Is that included in the 
schools which are mixed?

A Yes, I believe it is.
Q And the Sherwood Forest School, where there is 1 

black student with 822 white students is included?
A Yes.
Q And South Fork, South Park, Speas, Union Cross, 

those schools are included?
A Yes, they are.
Q Now, what about the Waughtown School, which has 

2 Indians and 558 whites?

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A It is included.
Q And the Whitaker School with 7 Negroes and 608 

whites?
A Yes.
Q Moving on to the junior high schools, the Dalton 

School is listed as having 1 Oriental student and 829 white 
students. That also is a mixed school according to the
Exhibit 27?

A I don't believe that one was included in the 
exhibit. I believe it was overlooked.

Q Then the Glenn School, 3 Indians and 2 Negroes
and 768?

A Yes, that was included.
Q And the Jefferson School with 1 Negro and 815 

whites?
A Yes.
Q The senior high school at Mount Tabor, Mount Tabor

Senior High School, 1 Negro and 1219 whites?
A Yes.
Q Now, directing your attention farther down 

towards the middle of Defendants' Exhibit 27, it lists 
32,608 whites in mixed schools with white majority. Are all 
schools that we have mentioned before, that the whites 
attending those schools, are included in this 32,609 figure? 

A Yes, they are.

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Q Now, conversely - well, strike that. I'd like 
to back up. Of the Carver School, that's listed on 
Defendants’ Exhibit 26, under elementary schools, I think, 
as having 706 Negro students, 3 white students. Is that 
the figure for the elementary grades, or is that the figure 
for the whole school?

A That is the figure for the elementary school, 
including a kindergarten program that we have there, and 
does not Include the Junior and senior high.

Q How large is the kindergarten program?
A Slightly over 200.
Q Do you know what grade those three white students 

are in?
A I believe they are in the kindergarten program.
Q Now, you Just testified that there were approxi­

mately 200 children in the kindergarten program at Carver. 
Were all 706 of the black students at Carver included on 
your Exhibit 27, where it says 360 blacks in mixed schools 
with black majority?

A I believe they were.
Q So that a sixth-grade child at Carver is in a 

mixed school where there are 3 white children attending 
kindergarten?

A That's included that way.
Q Yes. And that, Just so that I get it in sequence,

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it is somewhat repetitious - that school, the 706 black 
children at Carver are included together, are included in 
the 360 figure of blacks in mixed schools with black 
majority?

THE COURT: You mean the 3 fl60?
MR. STEIN: That's what I meait to say.

A I believe they're included in that figure.
Q Again, I think on direct examination, you told us 

that the 1,042 in Kennedy are included in that figure 
because there is one white child also attending Kennedy?

A That's correct.
Q Now, Mr. Ward, you are familiar, are you not, with 

the general percentage procedure that I think HEW uses, the 
courts have used in determining percent of integration?
That is, they say that 15 percent of the Negro students are 
attending school with whites, or 25 or whatever it is, and 
I think that it is also true that HEW does not - when the 
calculation is made, they do not include the kinds of school 
situations we are talking about, where there is only one or 
a handful of white students in a black school. Do you have 
a fairly current calculation as to the percent of the black 
children in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County System who are 
attending school with whites?

A No, sir, I do not.
MR. WOMBLE: Object to the form of the question.

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THE COURTi Mr. Womble, 1*111 going to be very 
liberal about the evidence that comes in. I don’t 
want something in the record—

MR. WOMBLE: The only reason for the objection
was - at least from the way the question was put - 
it seemed to me that it was very unclear as to what 
he was really asking. He says, "You are familiar with 
what HEW and what the courts generally require." As 
far as I know, there is no standard.

THE COURT: Well, you make a note of that and
I'll let you ask him some questions about it.

THE WITNESS: I do not have the answer anyhow.
MR. STEIN: It's also true that the question was

not that clear.
THE COURT: Do you think he cleared it up?
MR. STEIN: He cleared up for me. Maybe he didn't

clear it up for the Court.
Q (By Mr. Stein) I ask you to turn to the part of 

Defendants' Exhibit 26, which lists faculty assignments by 
race.

A I do not have a copy of that.
THE COURT: You said Defendants' 26?

A I do not have the attachment that has the faculty 
on it.

THE COURT: I see. Let him use this.

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oxem; backing up somewhat, Mr. Ward.
Mr. Vanore referred to Defendants’ Exhibit 18,- which I 
think you said is the most recent desegregation plan for 
the local administrative unit. Is that true?

A Yes.

Q Now, is there any provision in there, or is there 
any Board resolution prior to that which was in effect then 
or subsequent to that, which established a time table for 
the desegregation of the schools, of the faculties, in 
Winston-Salem?

A I do not understand your question.
Q Well, Mr. Womble, in his opening remarks, referred 

to the case, the Bowman case in the Fourth Circuit which 
was decided in 1967, where the court said that it was 
required for school boards to establish a time table for 
the desegregation of faculties so that no school would be 
racially identifiable as to faculty. I am asking at what 
time, if ever, the local Board took such action?

A The administrative staff had a proposal which it 
was following in connection with the desegregation of staff. 
We do not have a School Board policy relating to staff 
desegregation.

Q Could you describe for us what the administrative 
staff’s proposal was?

A The administrative staff proposal, after the

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moving of a very few people across the line the first year, 
moved to five percent the second year, ten percent last 
year, fifteen percent for this current year, and was to 
achieve early in the seventies approximately a fifty per­
cent ratio. Our plan did not go as far as the Court has 
now ordered us to go.

Q Well, the fifty percent ratio, could you explain 
what the fifty percent ratio would have meant if you had 
reached it?

A It would have achieved at least fifty percent 
of all the staff members in the predominantly Negro schools 
would have been of the opposite race.

Q So that in some of the black schools, you would 
have had fifty percent of one race and fifty percent of the 
other?

A In all of the black schools, we would have had 
at least fifty percent of the other race.

Q And when was this to have been accomplished? By 
when was it proposed that this be accomplished?

A I have forgotten the exact date. It was in the 
early seventies, '71 or ’72. I've forgotten what year it 
was.

Q Could you say again approximately what the black- 
white faculty ratio is in the system as a whole?

A It's about twenty-seven percent black.

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1 Q So that when you had reached your final stage, 
you still would have had a different ratio in the black 
schools from the ratio at large?

A That's correct.
Q And you would have had a different ratio in the 

white schools?
A Correct.
Q And the white schools would have been more white, 

in terms of faculty, than the black schools?
A That's correct.
Q The black schools would have been more black?
A That's true.
Q And this proposal, this administrative proposal,

was never adopted by the School Board, is that true?
A No, sir. It was not proposed to the School Board 

for adoption, and the School Board never did adopt it as a 
policy.

G When was this policy developed by the administra­
tive staff?

A I don't know the exact date. It was sometime 
within the last eighteen months.

Q Well, was it after June, June 10th, 1968, when 
Brewer vs. Norfolk was decided by the Fourth Circuit?

A les, it was after that time. We had been moving 
in this direction, but the plan which I have Just discussed

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was formulated after that time.
THE COURT: You are talking about administrative

staff members?
THE WITNESS: That is correct. The administrative

staff had made this decision, and of course we are the 
group that implements a decision of that nature.

THE COURT: What was the plan that you say had
been at least thought about but was never carried 
before the Board? Tell me that again.

THE WITNESS: May I have a copy of the Peabody
Report? Our plan is spelled out - I believe it has 
been introduced in evidence, has it not? Do you know 
what page it’s on?

MR. WOMBLE: 67, I believe.
THE COURT: I was confused when Mr. Stein said the

result of it would be that there would be more black 
staff members in the predominantly black schools and 
more white staff members in the predominantly white, 
as I understood it.

THE WITNESS: That would be correct for this
reason. Twenty-seven percent of our staff is black, 
and the other seventy-three is white. And in the black 
schools, the predominantly black schools, you use 
fifty percent white, then the ratio would have to be 
lower than 27 percent in the remaining schools.

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1 THE COURT: I see.
THE WITNESS: On page 67 of the Peabody Report,

this gives the time table proposal which the staff was 
in the process of using, and it says, "Number 1. For 
the 1969-70 school year, no school faculty would have 
more than 85 percent of a minority race." And this 
is approximately what we had achieved for the 1969-70 
school year during the stages before the Court issued 
its order.

THE COURT: You had about fifteen percent?
THE WITNESS: That is about the fifteen percent

in the minority schools. So we had achieved what we 
had proposed to achieve for this school year. Then 
the proposal for 1970-71, "No school would have more 
than seventy-five percent of a minority race." For 
the 1971-72 school year, "No school would have more 
than sixty-nine percent of the minority race." And 
for the '72-73 school year, "No school would have more 
than fifty-nine percent of the minority race." And 
for the 1973-74 school year, "No school would have more 
than forty-nine percent of the minority race." And 
that was as far as we had proposed to go.
Q (By Mr. Stein) In making these adjustments, you 

say that you moved to fifteen percent for this school year. 
Was the administrative staff working on its own, or were you

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consulting informally with the Board? How were you able to 

act without Board action?
A The Board had never had - over a period of years, 

it had never had any policy in relation to this, concerned 
with the number of people or the race employed, or had never 
given any specific instruction to the staff in connection 
with the assignment, but the School Board was aware of the
plan that we were following.

Q Now, you testified at some length concerning the
Board's assignment plan, which as I understand it involves 
geographical zones together with a free choice of transfer?

A That's true.
Q Does your office have statistics showing the 

resident population of each zone?
A No, we do not.
Q So you wouldn't know if tomorrow you said, "Every­

body go back where you came from; go to the school m  your 
own zone," you wouldn't know whether some schools would be 
over capacity and some would be under capacity?

A We do not have the exact statistics on that. 
q Do you keep records as to the number of transfer

requests granted each year?
A Yes.
a Do you keep cumulative records to determine how 

many students in each school were originally transferred and

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1 then reassigned to that school the following year?
A No, sir. We have not kept cumulative records.
Q Has your office attempted to determine the effect, 

either positive or negative, of desegreation of the schools 
of the free transfer provision contained in their assignment 
plan?

A Repeat the question, please.
Q What I'm trying to determine, Mr. Ward, is whether 

there are more children attending school across racial lines 
because of the free transfer provision of your plan, or are 
there less children attending schools across racial lines 
because they transferred away from an integrated situation?

A The best we have been able to determine, for the 
several years that this plan has been in effect, many more 
students transfer and the desegregation has been increased 
by this policy.

Q Well, are there some statistics in your office 
which you could produce which would back that up, or is this 
an educated hunch?

A We have had figures in the past to show. I am 
not sure that we have statistical figures that actually show 
this. The fact that we have not kept this information by 
race for the last several years and have had to turn to 
principals each year to determine this, I am not sure that 
the record could be accurately shown.

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G Do you know whether or not there are white
studenta who are residing in zones of schools attended 
exclusively or predominantly by blacks who have chosen to 
go to other schools?

A Repeat that question, please.
Q Are there whites in your system, white students, 

who live within the zone of a school which is attended 
exclusively or predominantly by black children who have 
chosen to leave that zone and attend a school somewhere 
else?

A I think there are a few, but I’m not positive.
THE COURT: Could that information be established,

Mr. Ward, with your records?
THE WITNESS: It might be possible. I'm not sure

whether we can or not since we have not kept records 
by black and white. It is rather difficult to establish 
things of this nature.

THE COURT: Of course I am sure you understand
the question. The question is where you draw your 
lines ungerrymandered and then the whites all transfer 
out.

THE WITNESS: I will answer it this way. Over the
period of the last four or five years, a substantial 
number of whites have moved out of districts. Some of 
them may have transferred out, and it might be possible

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for us to obtain some information of that nature for 
the Court.

THE COURT: These areas, some of them - and I
don't have the system where I can talk in terms of 
schools - there are some of them, like you say, and 
a couple of them, I believe you said, in a year they 
changed from - we will say - from predominantly white 
to predominantly black. Those then you are saying, in 
the main, were because of pupil moving from those 
areas?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. In the Fairview district 
early in the sixties, and then later the North Ele­
mentary, the Hanes and the Lowrance district. Many—  

the population of these communities changed although 
the districts were generally maintained, district 
lines. A great many white people moved out and many 
blacks moved in. It may be possible that there are 
still some whites living in these districts and some 
of them cransferring out under the freedom of transfer 
plan - I don't think the number is large, and we might 
be able to obtain that information.

THE COURT: To further display my lack of knowledge
of what has gone on here, somebody mentioned during 
the plaintiffs' testimony - the gentleman that was 
testifying there - something about redevelopment. Now,

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there has been some redevelopment here in Winston- 
Salem. What school area is that in? To me that 
means not so much people in a particular place being 
moved out, but maybe tearing down old houses and 
putting up new. What do you say? Tell me about 
redevelopment and how that's affected it.

THE WITNESS: Generally redevelopment has
occurred in the east and the northern area of the city, 
and in the course of the years we have had considerable 
movement when redevelopment tearing down was occurring. 
In one section of the city, many people moved to 
another area of the city, and then later when redevelop­
ment occurred in that, there was some movement back.
But generally when redevelopment occurred and people 
moved out, most of them stayed in the area in which 
they moved. Most of this has been in the eastern and 
northern sections of the city, though most of it has 
generally been in the Negro distrct, the ones that 
have been predominant.

THE COURT: To your knowledge has there been a
redevelopment where it was predominantly white and 
they had this redevelopment, and then as a result of 
the redevelopment it became predominantly black? Is 
that a situation that might have happened?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there is a housing project that

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is in the general area between Fairview and Lowrance 
that was one time—  it was one time I believe all 
white. It is now predominantly Negro, and I believe 
that the thirteen or twelve - how many students were 
listed - in the Lowrance - the white students listed 
in the Lowrance School district, are students who are 
currently living in that - white students who are 
apparently still living in that housing project.

THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Stein. You go ahead.
MR. STEIN: That's exactly where I was going now. 

Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, I show you Plaintiffs' 
Exhibit 21, which includes a letter to Mr. Valder from Mr. 
James K. Haley, Deputy Director of the Redevelopment 
Commission of Winston-Salem. The letter says, "Your letter 
of December 11th requesting information about relocation 
activities in Winston-Salem. Enclosed is a progress report 
of all Urban Renewal activities in our city and also a city 
map showing a pattern of relocation of families and indi­
viduals displaced by Urban Renewal into other areas of the 
city. All displacees were non-white." And the map here 
shows by percentage figures of where those people - and 
they were all non-white - went to after being displaced by 
Urban Renewal, and there is one area that says 30 percent 
of those - the figures are contained in the other attach­
ment. I ask you what school district is the area which is

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1 pink on the map and says 34 percent?
A That covers approximately four elementary school

districts. Roughly it would cover Lowrance, or a portion 
of Lowrance, North Elementary, Carver Crest, and Kimberly 
Park.

Q And what about the green area which says 37 per­
cent?

A That would generally cover the area served by 
Skyland, 14th Street, Fairview and Brown.

Q And 23 percent?
A Twenty-three percent would cover a portion of the 

Skyland area, a portion of the Carver district, some of 
Petree, and possibly a little bit of the Walkertown district.

Q Just a final question on a line of questions which 
I was asking you before. The School Board has not asked 
for and your office has not developed a recent statistical 
report on the effect of the free transfer plan on integra­
tion?

A No, sir, it has not.
Q Now, defendants have introduced Exhibit 3, which 

is a chart showing integration going back to 1957, and then 
some other exhibits which show action by the School Board 
on transfer requests. In response to questions from Mr. 
Womble, you testified that the names checked on those exhi­
bits were those black students who were allowed to transfer

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1 to white schools. Were there any black students during any 
of those years who applied to go to white schools but whose 
requests were denied? And I'm talking about the years 1957 
through '62.

A I do not recall what the regulations were in 
connection with transfer during that period, but none that 
I recall that fitted the regulations the School Board used 
at the time, and I do not recall what they were.

Q Well, I ask you to look at Defendants' Exhibit 5, 
which is entitled "Rules and Regulations Governing Assign­
ments and Change of Assignments for the Children in the 
Winston-Salem School Administrative Unit, August 9, 1956." 
Prior to 1963 were these rules and regulations in force?

THE COURT: Exhibit 5 you're looking at, Mr.
Stein?

MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.
A Yes, I believe these are the rules and regulations 

used at that time.
Q What rule or regulation contained therein could 

give a reason for the denial of a black child's request to 
transfer to a white school?

A I have not read these rules and regulations, and 
I could not answer the question without reading them care­
fully. I do not recall what they were.

Q I ask you to look at the attachments to rules and

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regulations, which are forms, and ask you were these forms 
the ones used by children requesting transfer at that time?

A Yes, sir, I believe these were the forms used at 
that time.

Q Now, there is some fifteen questions calling for 
information to be supplied by the parent of a child seeking 
transfer, and I call your attention to question 13, which 
says, "State specific reasons why child should not attend 
school to which child has been assigned.” Now, did a black 
child need any more reason than he simply wanted to go to a 
school which blacks had previously been excluded from?

A Not to my knowledge. I was not superintendent 
at this time, and did not actually do the work involved in 
this. But not to my knowledge.

Q On the next page—
THE COURT: You are saying he didn't need any more

reason than that he just wanted to transfer?
THE WITNESS: No. Reasons were used. I'm not

sure that it would require a different reason for a 
black or a white child to transfer.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Now, on the next page, there is a 

place for signature of parents and a place for the signature 
to be notarized. Do you know whether applications were 
accepted where the application was not notarized?

A Not to my knowledge. We provided a notary public

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in our office at that time, and anyone could have it 
notarized at no cost. So far as I know, all applications 
at that time were notarized.

Q If someone mailed it in without coming to your 
office, or coming to the superintendent’s office, and they 
weren't notarized, do you know whether they were rejected 
for that reason?

A No, sir, I do not.
Q Defendants' Exhibits 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, which 

show minutes of the Winston-Salem Board of Education meet­
ings, and actually 12 shows a meeting of a consolidated 
Board. One could determine if there were other black 
children requesting transfer whose requests were not granted 
by simply looking to see the schools - the name of the 
school in the left column, the school from which he sought—  

from which he wanted to leave, and look on the right, 
school where he wanted to go, and you could tell whether 
there was a child wanting to go from a black school to a 
white school. Would you also then know if that were a 
child - if that were a black child, or might there be some 
white children in black zones trying to go to white schools?

A As I recall it, there wa3 no way to distinguish 
except from the general makeup of the student body.

Q Now, before consolidation in the City of Winston- 
Salem, you also had attendance zones, did you not?

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A Yes.

Q And you also had prior to 1954 schools which were 
restricted to whites and schools which were restricted to 
blacks. Isn't that so?

A We had general attendance zones at that time.
Q What is a general attendance zone?
A About the same type of attendance zones that we 

have. It was not formal in that day, in terms of a require­
ment of a written application to change from one zone to 
the other.

Q Did you have lines on a map?
A I'm not sure whether there were lines on a map 

at that time. There were general zones, but no strict 
regulation enforcing them. There were lines generally that 
determined the boundaries between one school district and 
another, but no records were kept, and anyone going from one 
school to the other did not have to make a formal applica­
tion of any kind.

Q The general zones of the white schools and the 
black schools overlapped, didn't they?

A It's possible that some of them could in those
days.

Q Was the Anderson School in the city or the county 
system?

A Anderson School did not exist at that time.

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Q Was there another black school there?
A No, not at that location.
Q When was the Anderson School built?
A Sometime in the mid-fifties.
Q What about the Atkins School?
A Atkins School existed at that time.
Q How far away from the Atkins School did children

come?
A At that time, I believe all black students in the 

City of Winston-Salem came to Atkins, wherever they lived.
THE COURT: This is about what year we're talking

about?
THE WITNESS: Prior to *54 was my understanding.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. STEIN: Yes, prior to '54.

Q (By Mr. Stein) When did it stop that all the 
black children in Winston-Salem went to Atkins?

A When did what?
Q When were there other schools that black children 

attended in the City of Winston-Salem?
A You mean at the high school level?
Q All right. For the high school level.
A I believe it was in 1957 when one black student

attended Reynolds High School, assigned by the Board.
0 And the rest of them—

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THE COURT: Before that was Atkins like Carver?
All of the grades?

THE WITNESS: That was 9, 10, 11 and 12. It was
just a high school, Atkins was. It was not 1 through 
12; it was just 9, 10, 11 and 12.

THE COURT: The Negro students thoughout the
city went to Atkins?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: Was there then one elementary?
THE WITNESS: There were a number of elementaries

at that time, and there were no junior highs during 
this period. But Atkins was the only high school that 
Negro students attended at the high school level.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Were there some schools existing 

in the City of Winston-Salem in 1954 which were then Negro 
schools which still exist today?

A Yes.
Q Do you remember which ones they are?
A Atkins High School, 14th Street, Skyland, Mebane, 

Brown, Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, and I believe Diggs was 
built about that time. There was one other existing at 
that time, Columbia Heights, which has been closed since 
that time, and I believe that's all within the city.

Q Now, since 1954, has any white child ever attended 
Atkins?

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A Yes.

Q When was that?
A I believe it was during the *67-68 year. I’m 

not sure. It might have been *66-67. Two white students 
attended Atkins High School for one year.

Q Do you know whether they were residents of the 
Atkins district or not?

A They were.
Q Under the free choice of transfer provisions

which you have, have any white students chosen Atkins since 
1954, chosen to attend, to transfer?

A Not on a full-time basis.
Q Now, as to the 14th Street School, have you had 

any white students to attend there since 1954?
A No, we haven't.
Q And Skyland? Have there been any white students 

to attend there?
A No, sir.
Q And Mebane?
A No, sir.
Q And Brown?
A No, sir.
Q And Kimberly Park?
A No.
Q Carver Crest?

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A No.
Q Diggs?
A No.
Q Now, my memory of your testimony was that the 

Carver School was built to serve all of the black children 
in the county. That was built before—

A 1950.
Q 1950. How many white children have attended

Carver since 1954?
A Not more than a dozen. I don’t know the exact 

number, but not more than that.
THE COURT: There have been white children who

have attended Carver since 1954?
THE WITNESS: A few in the preschool program. I

do not know the exact number. We have three there this 
year. Y/e had some attending there last year. I don't 
believe any white students attended except in the pre­
school program, and that's been less than a dozen, I 
am sure.
Q (By Mr. Stein) How is it determined who parti­

cipates in the preschool program that you described?
A This preschool program serves the area that is 

included in the ESEA Title I Program, and only children from 
this area can attend, and the white students who are there 
would have lived in this district and would have had the

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privilege of attending on that basis.
Q So those twelve or so children who have attended 

Carver, white children who have attended Carver, since 1954 
are children who have been in a special federal-funded 
program and also lived within the area served by the program'* 

A That is correct.
Q No children have chosen to transfer into the 

Carver School from another zone?
A Many children have chosen to, but no white child­

ren.
Q No white children.

THE COURT: I assume from that that you mean many
black children have chosen to go to Carver, and you say 
no white?

THE WITNESS: Many black children have, but no
white.

THE COURT: Out of which areas do they come? I
realize that you don't have records with you. Can you 
answer that?

THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Let me have my Exhibit 24 back then.

Is it 24?
MR. WOMBLE: 26, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: 26.
THE COURT: All right. From what areas generally

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have they come?
THE WITNESS: The majority of students who have

applied for Carver have been the students in the Atkins 
and Paisley area. Probably the greater number have 
applied at the senior high school level after the 
redistricting - after the closing of Paisley Senior 
High and the changing of the district, which assigned 
a number of black students to North and Reynolds.
Under the freedom of transfer policy, a number of 
students requested and were granted transfer to Carver.
I don't recall the statistics this year, but I believe 
the first year there were approximately fifty students 
who were assigned to North and Reynolds from the 
Paisley area transferred to Carver at the senior high 
school level. That probably boosted their enrollment 
from around 200 to about 250.

THE COURT: And those were from North and Reynolds*!
THE WITNESS: From North and Reynolds, but from

the Paisley area.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Stein.

Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, Defendants' Exhibit 26 
shows approximately—  well, it shows 706 black students and 
3 white students at Carver at the elementary level, and 
499 in Carver in the Junior and senior high school level, 
which is approximately 1200 students or so. Is that under

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or above the capacity of the Carver School?
A That's slightly under the capacity of Carver 

School.
Q Do you have sufficient information to estimate 

how many of those children live within the Carver zone?
A I can't be real accurate on it. The majority of 

the preschool students come from outside of the Carver area. 
I would estimate - and this is only an estimate - that 
somewhere between 350 and 375 of the elementary students 
live in the Carver district, and a rough estimate of the 
Junior-senior high level would be 200 at the Junior high 
and probably 180 or 190 at the senior high. This is 
without having looked at any recent figures, and I may be 
off.

Q Could you do it the other way? Were you making 
a calculation as to how many people do not live within the 
district?

A No, these are the numbers that I think do live 
within the district and attend the school.

Q You said approximately 350, 200, and 180?
A I'm saying between 750 and 800 probably live

within the Carver district, and this is only an estimate.
Q How long has this preschool project been carried 

on at Carver?
A This is the second year.

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Q Now, are the zones approximately the same now as

they were then?
A Yes.
Q The Carver zone?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that since the Carver zone was 

initially established, the resident student population 
within the zone was, considerably smaller than the capacity 
of the school?

A Yes, this has been generally true since the zone 
was established.

Q Was this because the Board expected a significant 
number of people to transfer into Carver?

A No, it was not.
Q Why did you draw a zone around a number of studen 

significantly below the capacity of the school?
A There was capacity in the districts adjoining the 

Carver School district, that there was no reason to enlarge 
or crowd one district or another. There was a capacity at 
Petree, Walkertown, Prince Ibraham, the neighboring school.

Q Didn't you testify about a plan, an expansion 
program at Walkertown?

A That was at the junior high school level.
Q And that was to accommodate some students from

some other schools, is that right?

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A Our proposal was to discontinue the small Junior 
high school at Carver and the small senior high school at 
Carver and move these students to another school.

Q Now, Mr. Womble asked you several times about 
factors considered in drawing lines, and you said that one 
time a line was drawn with racial considerations, and that 
was—

A That was when Paisley Senior High School was 
closed and the students were assigned to North and to 
Reynolds.

Q Was the decision in drawing the lines there so 
that you would have an equal distribution of black students 
to these two schools?

A No. The distribution wasn't quite equal, and 
actually the distribution of students to Paisley was three 
ways, not two ways. Part of the students were assigned to 
Atkins, part of them to Reynolds, and part of them to North. 
This was related somewhat to the capacities of the buildings 
at all three places.

Q I was just trying to follow up somewhat on Mr. 
Womble's question and to determine—  maybe you could go to 
the map and show us where - how the line was drawn to 
promote desegregation, by showing us where the line might 
have been drawn which would have continued segregation.

A The manner in which segregation would have been

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continued would have been to continue Paisley Senior High 
School, or to have drawn the line so that all of the black 
students would have been assigned to Atkins. To show you on 
the map how the lines could have been drawn, if Paisley had 
continued, the students from Hanes and from Paisley Junior 
High, these two junior highs, had been attending Paisley 
Senior High. With the closing of Paisley Senior High, the 
sections to the north would be assigned to North. The 
section generally to the southwest was assigned to Reynolds; 
to the southeast was assigned to Atkins. Now, if Paisley 
had been discontinued, the lines could have been drawn so 
that these students would have all been assigned to Atkins.

Q Well, if race had not been a factor, that is all 
the children in all the affected schools for white, but the 
decision were made to close down Paisley Senior High, do 
you think that your line would have been different from the 
lines which you have drawn?

A I really don't know how to answer that question.
I think possibly it would, and a larger number of the studenl 
probably would have been sent to Atkins.

G Now, have there been other instances where lines 
have been drawn or altered to promote desegregation?

A None that I can specifically think of at the 
moment.

Q Judge Gordon asked you about a clustering of

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schools. Would you call the zones where you have two and 
three elementary schools within the same zone a cluster?

A No, sir, I would not.
Q Mr. Womble asked you some questions about athle­

tics. You said that Atkins and Anderson, I think, are now 
members of formerly only white athletic associations. Is 
that right?

A That’s correct.
Q Is Carver still a member of black athletic asso­

ciations? ♦
A Yes, it is.
G Does your office have data showing the location 

of all students within the system? Do you have any large 
pupil locater maps, or spot maps, I think they're called?

A Not of all the students in the district. We have 
locations made about a year ago, or part of them, in connec­
tion with the transportation survey, but we do not h ve all 
of them.

Q Were those locations made by race?
A No, sir, they were not.
G At no time during the pendency of this suit or 

the Atkins suit has your office undertaken to locate students 
within the system by race?

A No, sir, we have not.
Q Mr. Ward, who are your—  what are the names and

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titles of your primary assistants and associates in the 
administrative office?

A I have two associates, Mr. Raymond Sarbaugh and 
Mr. Ned Smith.

G And what is the race of Mr. Sarbaugh?
A White.
Q And Mr. Ned Smith?
A White.
Q Do you also have some assistant superintendents?
A I have three.
Q What are their names?
A Mr. Robert Blevins—
Q And his race?
A White.
Q And who else?
A Mr. Leo Morgan.
Q Morgan?
A Yes.
Q And his race?
A White.
Q And the next?
A Mr. Eugene Johnston.
Q What's his race?
A White.
Q Have there ever been—  has there ever been a black

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associate superintendent for the Winston-Salem schools?
A No, sir, there has not.
Q In this school system?
A No, sir.
Q Mr. Ward, under the present activities in re­

assigning faculty members, are there any schools which are 
projected to have a majority black faculty?

A No, sir.
Q Are there any schools which are projected to have 

more than thirty-seven percent, or so, of black faculty?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have a copy of the resolution of the Board 

where they decided to make these faculty reassignments?
A I do not have a copy with me, unless Mr. Womble 

might have one perhaps.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, there's no rush, and I

would prefer to conclude the cross examination of Mr. 
Ward - provided it is not going to be lengthy - but I 
don't want to cut you off. If you are at a point where 
we could take a recess, we will do so.

MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I don't think I'll be much
longer.

MR. WOMBLE: It may give us time to find what
he's asking about.

MR. STEIN: I think I would be a little quicker

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if I could just go through my notes one more time.

THE CJURT: All right. You may come down, Mr.
Ward. Again, those of you who are here, you may smoke 
out in the hall, and someone will notify you at about 
the time we will take up, and we will have a short 
recess.

(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, if you will return to the

stand. Were you able to find the minutes?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have a copy here which I

think will give the information that Mr. Stein would 
like to see.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, Defedants' Exhibit 26 

shows that there are 180 children at Children's Home, and 
that they are all white. To your knowledge, has there ever 
been any black children attending the school at Children's 
Home?

A Not to my knowledge.
Q And the exhibit further shows where it shows the 

present faculty assignments that the two black faculty 
members and fifteen white faculty members at Children's 
Home. Are there plans in your reassignment policies which 
you are attempting to carry out now to reassign teachers at 
Children's Home?

A It's included in the reassignment plan.

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Q Do you know or remember how many changes are 
proposed for that school?

A No, I do not, but it would put it in about the 
same percentage ratio as the other schools.

Q Now, the children, as I understand it, that go to 
school at Children's Home are children that live there. Is 
that true?

A That's correct.
Q So the School Board really does not have any 

control over whether or not there would be black children 
at that school, do they?

A No, it does not.
Q If the body that runs Children's Home should 

decide not to admit black children to Children's Home, then 
the school would stay white, is that true?

A I believe the policy of Children's Home now would 
permit black students to live and attend Children's Home.

Q But in fact now, today at least, none do?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know approximately how many children in 

the system ride school buses to school?
A In the neighborhood of seventeen thousand.
Q How many of those children are affected by the 

busing case? Isn't it the Sparrow case?
A Yes. Roughly three thousand more would be

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entitled to transportation if it were granted to all persons 
in the county alike, and I believe that it is estimated 
that approximately five thousand might lose transportation 
on March the 1st if some exception isn't made.

Q Has the local Board made any decisions as to what 
it plans to do if the court does not stay the effect of its 
order?

A The local Board has not made a decision in 
connection with that.

Q Have there been contingency plans formulated?
A No, there have not.
Q Now, those numbers would vary if attendance lines 

and assignment policies were changed, would they not?
A It could.
Q What is controlling as to whether a student is 

entitled to bus transportation at state expense is the 
distance he lives from the school to which he is assigned, 
not the distance he lives from the closest school to his 
house. Isn't that true?

A That's provided that he is attending within the 
district that he lives.

Q Yes, sir. Now, you testified at some length 
about attendance lines for Junior and senior high school, 
and you have characterized the assignment patters for Junior 
and senior high schools in this system as a feeder system,

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slightly modified in some instances. Is it not possible to 
establish a feeder system without drawing specific attendant 
lines for junior and senior high schools, simply to say that 
children graduating from schools A, B and C go to junior 
high school A,  and not be concerned as to where they live, 
or not be concerned to the extent of drawing lines on a map?

A I'm not sure I understand what you have in mind.
Q The Board could simply determine, could it not, 

that students attending particular elementary schools, upon 
graduation would go on to a particular junior high school?

A They could make that decision.
Q And that students graduating from a particular 

junior high school would go on to a particular high school?
A That would be possible.
Q This in fact is done in some systems, isn’t it?
A I assume you are making a statement and not asking

me a question.
Q I said isn't it?
A I do not know.

THE COURT: What relation does your feeder system
have, Mr. Ward, to the proximity of those that feed 
into the schools? We will say elementary schools 
generally located, those that feed in, closer to the 
junior high school than other schools, other elementary 
schools?

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THE WITNESS: Generally the pattern that we
followed in this community is to have a large high 
school district, which is made up of two smaller 
Junior high school districts, and then the elementary 
schools that are in the same general neighborhood as 
the Junior high school would feed to it - a logical 
pattern based upon proximity to schools.

THE COURT: And if you could transport them over,
why, you could get them from - we will say - the other 
side of the central area? It is Just a case of 
selecting those that are nearest to the school that 
you are feeding, is that it?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.
Q (By Mr. Stein) In a given high school zone in the 

system, although a child might be attending a high school 
closest to where he lives, it still might be some distance. 
Is that not true?

A That is true.
Q And even within the City of Winston-Salem, a 

student could be some distance from the high school he 
attends?

A Yes, he could live several miles and live in the 
system.

Q There has been some mention of on-going study of a 
plan for integration of the schools which apparently is not

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1 ready now for presentation. When was it first proposed by 
the School Board that such a study would be made?

A I'm sorry, I do not recall the date.
Q Do you remember the year?
A The first discussion, I believe, was a little more 

than a year ago.
Q Was that prior to the decision to have the survey 

report which has been introduced as Defendants' Exhibit 23?
A There was some discussion prior to the decision 

of that report.
Q Was any Board action taken prior to the decision 

to have this study made? Was there a Board decision as to 
a study to develop a plan for the desegregation of the
schools?

A I do not recall any. There was considerable dis­
cussion, but I do not recall any Board action in connection 
with it. There might have been; there was considerable 
discussion.

Q Approximately how many mobile units are located
within the system?

A Eighty-nine.
THE COURT: Are those in use; Mr. Ward?
THE WITNESS: All of them are in use.
MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
THE’ COURT: Anything on redirect, Mr. Womble?

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MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, Exhibit 26 shows that 
the enrollment, the pupil enrollment at Atkins is 1135 
Negro and no white. Are there any special classes at 
Atkins that are attended by whites?

A We have some vocational education classes there, 
and I believe there are approximately ten white students 
attending on a partial basis these clases.

Q What area does the vocational education program 
at Atkins serve?

A It serves the entire community in the field of 
auto mechanics, brick laying, painting, and things of that 
nature.

Q Mr. Stein asked you about the membership of Carver 
in a black athletic association. Who determines what 
athletic association a school joins?

A The principal of the school would determine that, 
and if he wanted to change from one to another, would apply 
to the association that he would want to get into, and our 
administrative staff would try to help him get into the 
association that he wished to belong.

Q Do you know why Carver has not changed or switched 
to another association, has not applied to another asso­
ciation, or has it applied?

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A I don’t believe it has, and I think possibly the 
reason is because of its small size and the constant 
feeling that Carver might be closed in the near future. I 
believe Anderson, under the same consideration, waited one 
year longer before it applied to the 3-A and then decided 
to go on with our encouragement to apply to get into the 
3-A association.

Q Mr. Stein asked you about your associates, Mr. 
Sarbaugh and Mr. Smith, and about your assistant super­
intendents Mr. Blevins and Mr. Morgan, and Mr. Johnston, 
and you testified that each of those persons is white. How 
long have they held the positions they have now?

A All five of these individuals have held these 
positions since the consolidation of the school system in 
1963.

Q During that period of time, has there been any 
increase in your table of organization for those positions?

A Not at that level.
Q Have there been any openings for any of those 

positions since consolidation of the city and county school 
systems?

A No, there have been no openings.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.

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THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Just a moment.

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT
Q Mr. Ward, the complaint alleges that the defend­

ants, the State Board of Education and Dr. Carroll - of 
course, that’s been changed to Dr, Phillips automatically—  

Now, the County Board of Commissioners, I don’t recall 
exactly, but it is in the main while they don't, you know, 
run the schools, they still have considerable influence on 
what the Board does, like the matter of roads to schools, 
like where the school buildings are constructed, and money 
for teachers and so forth. Have those defendants, or any 
of them, brought any kind of pressure or given you any kind 
of information, to your knowledge, that was along the line 
of insisting or promoting a racial system in this county?
Do you know anything about that?

A No, sir, they have not.
Q You say building construction, that you send that 

in to the State and ask them if they have—  do they have
a committee?

A They have the responsibility to approve these 
buildings from the standpoint of safety, whether the con­
struction is adequate from a strain standpoint, the types 
of boilers, whether the boilers and things of that nature

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are safe.
Q How long ago has it been since you built the 

buildings in this system relative to schools?
A We completed the last one a little over a year

ago.
Q Which one was that?
j. x

A Jefferson Junior High was one of the last ones 
completed.

Q You submitted the plans there?
A We submitted the plans as we have all the others 

through the years to the State Board of Education so that 
they could have their experts determine whether the building 
was sound, safe, and so forth.

Q Was that submission handled through your office?
A Yes, it is.
Q To your knowledge were any questions asked about 

the makeup of the attendance, or the makeup of the faculty 
of that unit, with reference to the race, whether it would 
be in the majority black or white, or anything else about 
race, anything to your knowledge?

A No question has come up in connection with race 
to my knowledge in the construction of new buildings in this 
school system.

Q When you take your budget over to the Commissioners 
each year—

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A That's correct.
Q Is that a line item budget?
A A line item budget.
Q Do you always take that?
A I'm present when it's taken, yes, sir.
Q You usually take two, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You leave the high one with them?
A That's right, and wind up, of course, with the low

one.
Q Have the Commissioners - your last budget or past 

budgets - have they gone into the matter—  or the County 
Manager or the County Attorney or any of them, ever dis­
cussed with you the matter of where any funds that were 
being expended for capital improvements were going to be 
spent, or any inquiries about the racial aspect? Has that 
been done to your knowledge?

A No, sir, nothing has come up in connection with 
race, in connection with that. In the last budget that was 
approved by the County Commissioners, the Commissioners did 
specify that capital funds in the amount of roughly $700,000 
would be used for an elementary school in the northwest 
section of the community. It didn't spell out any specific 
area; it merely said northwest section. That is the only 
reference that they have ever made to the location of schools,

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Q There is something about roads, now, every once 
in a while, that the District Superintendent will come by 
about roads to be built. Does he visit you about that?

A No, he does not.
THE COURT: Anything further, gentlemen, of Mr.

Ward? Mr. Stein?
MR. STEIN: Just a few questions.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Stein) All teachers hired, employed by 

the School Board, have to be certified by the State, isn't 
that true?

A The State establishes a certification procedure 
and certifies teachers. We may select any teachers we want, 
and they do not control our selection by that method.

Q You can't hire someone who is not certified?
A No, but we can hire somebody with different grades

of certification.
Q But it is unlawful for the Board to hire someone 

who does not have a state certificate?
A I'm not sure whether the law reads that way or

not.
Q At the invitation of the local Board, the State 

came in a few years ago and conducted a survey of this 
system, didn't they?

A Yes.

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Q And they made certain recommendations concerning 
organization and school facilities and so forth?

A It made some recommendations in connection with 
the school facilities. I don't recall any recommendations 
concerning organization.

Q What percentage of your budget is supplied by the
State?

A I can't tell you at the moment. I think current 
operations some sixty-five percent probably.

Q Now, do you know whether or not the State 
Superintendent, Dr. Phillips, has established within the 
last year or so an office of an Assistant Superintendent 
for Human Relations, or some title similar to that?

A Yes, he has.
Q Do you know whether or not he assumes some 

responsibility for advising and consulting with school 
boards and school administrations around the state to assist 
them in matters of school desegregation?

A Repeat the statement, please.
Q Do you know whether or not the responsibilities of 

this assistant superintendent are to assist local units to - 
advise and assist in matters pertaining to school desegrega­
tion?

A I know that it is supposed to be in the field of 
human relations. I do not know to what degree that it affects

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this
Q Has your office consulted with Mr. Phillips or 

any of his assistant superintendents or any members of his 
staff concerning any matters relating to school desegrega­
tion in Winston-Salem?

A We may have discussed some matters with some 
members of the staff.

Q Has Dr. Phillips initiated any conversation, dis­
cussions with your office or with the Board or members of 
the Board, if you know, concerning desegregation plans for
this system?

A Not to my knowledge.
Q Where does the money come to operate the buses 

which carry some seventeen thousand students to school in 
the county?

A Most of the money for the current operation comes 
from the State.

Q Are there people in the State Superintendent's 
staff who provide assistance as to site selection for 
schools?

A There are some who will if we ask for it.
Q Have you in this system asked for their assistance

in the last several years?
A Not recently.
Q In establishing bus routes, are the people in the

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State Superintendent's office - is there somebody who comes 
and makes on the spot reviews of the bus route proposed by 
the local Board?

A They will review it and discuss it with us if we 
request it.

Q Well, have you requested such a review in the last 
several years?

A Not a total review. We have asked for some 
assistance in certain cases.

Q 1 think you testified in response to a question 
from the Court that the budget submitted to the Board of 
County Commissioners is a line item budget. Is that true?

A That's correct.
Q Do the Commissioners ever question any particular

items listed on the budget?
A Yes, they sometimes do.
Q Do they ever make decisions as between several 

items, that is to say they authorize expenditures for line 
items 1, 2, 3 and 4, but not for 6, but for 7 and 8?

A No, sir, it has not been their custom since 1963 
to do that.

Q Well, do you automatically get the amount of 
money you request?

A No, sir, we do not. But if they give us less 
than the amount of money we request, they allow us to

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recommend the items which are cut.
q But you did say that the last time that they 

specified that a certain capital expenditure would be made, 
an elementary school in the northwest portion?

A This is the only restriction I recall the County 
Commissioners ever putting on.

MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
MR. WOMBLE: No further questions.
MR. VANORE: I have one or two questions.

FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe Mr. Stein asked you 

whether or not the State had conducted recently a survey of 
your schools, and I believe that you said that they had?

A Yes.
Q And that they had made certain recommendations as 

far as school facilities were concerned. If you know, are 
you under any legal obligation to follow any of the 
recommendations made by this survey team?

A I know that we are not.
Q I believe that Mr. Stein also asked whether or not

you had received any assistance in establishing bus routes 
from the State Superintendent's office. I believe you said 
you had on occasion received assistance. If you know, are 
you under any legal obligation to follow the recommendations 
made as to particular bus routes?

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A No, we are not.
MR. VANORE: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. You may come down,

(Witness excused.)
WHEREUPON,

RAYMOND SARBAUGH
was duly sworn and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
(By Mr. Garrou) State your name, please.
Raymond Sarbaugh.
Where do you live?
447 Dartmouth Road, Winston-Salem.
Where do you work in Winston-Salem?
I'm associate superintendent for instruction in 

the Winston-Salem/Forsyth Schools.
Q How long have you held that position?
A Since 1963.
Q What did you do before that?
A Before that I was associated with what was 

formerly the Forsyth County System.
Q How long were you with the Forsyth County System? 
A I came here as a teacher in 1949, and have been 

with the system since that time.
Q When were you made an associate superintendent of 

the Forsyth County System?

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A

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1 A I was assistant superintendent of the Forsyth 
system - there was no associate position prior to consolida­
tion, effective in I960, from I960 to 1963.

Q How long were you a teacher?
A I was a teacher, a classroom teacher exclusively 

for only two years.
Q Were you a principal?
A No, I never was a principal. I've been everything 

but that. Following the two years in classroom teaching,
I served as an assistant principal, as a guidance counselor, 
as the director of guidance services for the county system, 
as its personnel director, and then as assistant superinten­
dent.

Q In your position as associate superintendent, I 
believe you said in charge of instruction?

A Yes, sir.
Q What areas of the system are you responsible for?
A I am responsible for overall direction of every­

thing that has to do with teaching and learning, classroom 
instruction, what we teach, how it's taught, and the 
materials and equipment we use to teach it.

Q Who are the assistant superintendents that report 
to you?

A There is one assistant superintendent who reports 
to me - that's Mr. Blevins.

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Q What are M s  duties?
A He works at my direction, but generally in the 

area of the elementary and secondary curriculum.
Q Now, our system participates in some federal 

funded programs, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q I show you this document that has been marked as 

Defendants’ Exhibit 32, marked for identification, and I 
ask you what that is?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' ExMbit No. 32 
for identification.)

A This is a summary of the defiMtion of Title I of 
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and a descrip­
tion of special programs which are provided for students 
in some schools that are not provided for the general school 
population.

Q So that is a summary of all programs that you have, 
whether Title I or otherwise, that are not applicable to the 
system-wide, is that correct?

A It's a summary of most of them, but not necessarily 
all, but most.

Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, describe please, Title I of 
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.

A Title I of the Elementary and Secondary Education 
Act is a program which provides financial assistance to

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local school districts to enable them to provide special 
programs and services for eligible children. In order to 
be eligible for participation in one of these programs, a 
child must live in an area which has a higher concentration 
of poverty than the average of the school district at large.

Q Let’s stop there for a second.
A That is generally—
Q Now, when you say a higher concentration of 

poverty than the average, what do you mean by that? How 
is that determined?

A At the institution of this program in - I believe - 
1965, one of the requirements for participation was that 
each school district conduct a local survey, an income 
survey, by population areas and by census tracts and arrive 
at the number of families whose income at that time, I 
believe, was less than $2,000.00 per year. Since then, the 
base figure has been increased to, I believe, $3,000.00, and 
after identification of the number of such families, the 
mathematical computation was determined to arrive at a 
system-wide or county-wide average of poverty concentration.

Q Now, this is a program that is administered - 
strike that. The eligibility for the program is determined 
by individuals rather than schools, isn’t that correct?

A The eligibility for the program is determined by 
where the child lives. To be eligible, he must live in an

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area where the poverty concentration exceeds the county 
average.

Q Is there any requirement that the family income 
of a particular child fall under this average figure?

A If a child lives in the area-r-
Q He's eligible?
A He’s eligible. Yes, he’s eligible if he lives in 

an area. There is still a further qualification for 
eligibility, and that is that he needs special help. He's 
not eligible unless he needs the special help.

Q How is it determined whether or not he needs 
special help?

A This is determined by identification of his 
achievement and his aptitudes and abilities, and is deter­
mined by what appears to be his need for the program that 
has been identified as the program we want to provide.

Q Are there tests administered to determine the 
child's needs?

A There are no tests administered specifically to 
identify these children, except in connection with our 
preschool program. But there are tests administered in the 
school system routinely to all students at certain levels, 
and these are used in connection with this program. Teacher 
assessment and other personal data and observation is also 
utilized.

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Q Now, approximately how much money is spent on 
Title I programs in the system, if you know?

A This amount varies somewhat from year to year, 
but in the past year our appropriation for Title I was 
something over $863,000.00.

THE COURT: Are you talking about on a fiscal
year basis, calendar year? When you say past year—

THE WITNESS: For the 1968—69 school year.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, I show you a document that 

has been marked for identification as Defendants’ Exhibit 33 
and I ask you what that is.

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 33 
for identification.)

A This is a listing of schools in which programs 
under Title I of ESEA are offered, schools in which these 
programs are provided, and data concerning the number of 
students participating in the program.

Q Now, was this Defendants' 33 prepared by your 
office?

A Yes, it was.
Q Under your supervision?
A Yes.
Q And was Defendants' Exhibit 32 also prepared by 

your office?
A Yes.

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Q Under your supervision?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you have a figure for the per-pupil 

expenditure, Title I?
A I have a figure which is based upon the total 

number of students participating in Title I activities of 
one kind or another, and that would be an average expendi­
ture of $306.00 per pupil during fiscal *68-69.

Q Now, you said that that is the figure for the 
total number of pupils. Would it be true that there would 
be a great number of students who had quite a bit less than 
this figure?

A That would be true.
Q In other words, explain for the Court what varia­

tions this per-pupil expenditure would include.
A Some of the activities—  I can best explain by 

looking at page 2 of this last exhibit, I think. On page 2 
of this exhibit - I'm just picking the Fairview School, 
which is the first school listed, to illustrate. 131 
children are shown as participating in the art program there. 
Right above that, 20 children are shown as participating in 
the open highways first program. The per-pupil cost, and 
those children in the open highways program are included in 
the children in the art program, so that for those 20 
children the per-pupil cost is much greater, because they

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are involved in many programs. Some of the children in the 
131 are involved in the art program only, so the per-pupil 
cost would be much less.

THE COURT: Is this a preschool program in its
entirety?

THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: This is just part of it?
THE WITNESS: The preschool program is one which

Mr. Ward testified to at Carver School, but it serves 
children from all of these districts. And that's just 
one part of this program.

THE COURT: I see.
MR. GARROU: I was getting ready to go into that,

Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) On page 1 of Defendants' 32, the 

first item listed is the preschool program. Now, is that a 
Title I program?

A There are two preschool programs, as we identify 
them. One of them is a Title I program; the other is 
financed by federal funds but from another source.

Q Would you describe both of these programs, please?
A The first of these is a program which is financed

with Title I of Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and 
is operated in the Carver School. It is a year-around, or 
regular school year program, a nine-month program. It

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serves only children who live in that eligible area for 
Title I services as determined by poverty concentration, 
and they are given a kindergarten or readiness program for
a 180-day period.

Q Now, what is "Head-Start”?
A "Head-Start" is somewhat similar to the preschool

program. Its purposes are essentially the same. It is 
conducted in our system only in the summertime for a two- 
month period. It serves the same areas which are served by 
the Title I preschool program and some additional areas as

well.
q  So that the cost of operating "Head-Start"—  would 

the cost of operating "Head-Start" be included in this
$830,000-some figure?

A No, it would not be included in that.
Q Now, what is "Project Read"?
A "Project Read" is for our system a new program 

this year. It is a special individualized reading program.
It is for children in the elementary grades. In this 
program, the children are provided with specialized material, 
what we refer to as programmed textbooks, programmed 
material, and its purpose is to help them strengthen their 
reading skill and learn to read at their own pace.

Q What is programmed material? Would you describe

that?

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A Yes, sir, I'll try. It is a workbook type of 
material, and it is organized in question form where each 
question covers only a very small matter, a small item, and 
the student is given the question visually, and he then 
responds to answer that question, and usually his answer 
is a one-word or a marking answer from a series of multiple 
choice possibilities. And then in the workbook material, 
covered up, is the answer to that question, and after he 
has responded he is able to move his marker down and see 
the correct answer and determine whether his response is 
correct. If so, he goes on to the next question. And the 
questions are highly structured arid they are presented in 
a very systematic fashion, to present drill and repetition 
and reinforcement.

Q Now, what role does the teacher-aid have in this 
process?

A Because of the individual nature of this type of 
program, the teacher may have in her classroom twenty-five 
children - they are working in these workbooks, each one, 
each student, at his own rate, and most likely each student 
is at a different place. This is quite different from the 
more traditional type of classroom instruction, where 
everybody is on the same page, and at the same place. So 
the teacher is more a coordinator of activities, a resource 
person, and she has considerable difficulty in reaching each

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of these children on an individual basis as they need her. 
And so during this time, when this special reading program 
is in operation, we provide the teacher with a teacher- 
aid who assists her in supervising the work of the children 
as they proceed through this programmed material, and it 
may involve checking to see that they are responding 
properly in their workbook. It may be listening to them 
read when they have completed an exercise. It may be 
answering a question, and that kind of thing.

Q Now, this is the Title I program?
A Yes.
Q Let's go back to "Head-Start". You testified 

that "Head-Start" was not a Title I program and funds did 
not come out of Title I funds?

A "Head-Start" is financed with funds from the 
Office of Economic Opportunity, and those funds are pro­
vided directly to the Experiment in Self-Reliance in this 
community, and they subcontract their "Head-Start" program, 
part of it, to the public school system and part to some 
other community agencies.

Q What is the "Open Highway" program?
A This is agin a reading program, and we define it 

as the "Open Highways" program simply for identification 
purposes, and because "Open Highways" happens to be the 
title of the series of textbooks which is the basis for the

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program. In fact, it is a special program of instruction 
designed for disadvantaged children who bring a rather 
limited background of experience to the classroom.

Q How is it administered?
A Each of the schools in which this program operates 

has a first-grade class identified as the "Open Highways" 
class, and there are twenty children in the class. And I 
need to go back to ’68 and '69 to clarify it. In ’68-69, 
these twenty children were participating in the preschool 
program which I have already referred to, and they were from 
a given district, and they were grouped together for 
instruction in a class in the preschool program. In this 
current school year, those children entered the first grade 
back in their neighborhood elementary school, and they have 
been generally kept together as a unit in first grade, and 
in this program we attempt to strengthen the reading skills 
and their inadequacies in spoken language, and to improve 
their communication skills. The teacher has in addition to 
the "Open Highways" series of books a great deal of other 
material, and also has the services of a full-time teacher- 
aid.

Q How many pupils do you have participating in the 
"Open Highways" program now?

A We have something over two hundred, approximately 
the same number as are participating in the preschool

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program. One group of twenty or so children in each of the 
eleven Title I schools.

Q I believe you testified that the twenty children 
in each group are kept together throughout their elementary 
career, is that right?

A Well, so far, we haven't carried a group beyond 
this point yet. We only initiated this program in '68-69.
So the group of children involved are now in the first grade, 
It will be our intention to continue to keep them together 
as a unit in 1970-71.

Q Now, would you describe the art education under 
the Title I program? Before that, the "Open Highways'' is 
a Title I program, is it?

A Yes, it is. The art education program involves—  

it proviles special art teachers at the elementary school 
level and in these Title I area schools, and there are three 
of these teachers. And except for them, the school system 
provides no special art teachers at the elementary level 
in other schools. All instruction in art education is 
conducted by the regular classroom teacher. One of the 
three works full-time at the preschool program at Carver 
with the 220-odd children who are there. The other two 
work in the eleven Title I elementary schools, and they 
work directly with children in the first grades with 
emphasis on the "Open Highways" classes, and in some second

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grades actually, providing direct instruction to the 
children on a scheduled basis, and then time permitting, 
they provide instruction for other groups of children, and 
consultative service to all teachers in the school.

MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I interrupt because I
just don’t see how this whole line of testimony is 
connected to the issue before the Court.

THE COURT: What is the connection, Mr. Garrou?
I presume that ultimately you are going to get to 
showing that this program is one wherein the races 
were mixed up, which seems to be - you know - before us 
here. Tell me about it.

1®. GARROU: That’s one thing, Your Honor, and
what we intend to show is that these programs are being 
administered in schools that are predominantly black, 
and that these are special benefits that these schools 
have and that the other schools don't have.

MR. WOMBLE: There is also the aspect of it, Your
Honor, that these are programs that are especially 
sponsored with federal grants by the federal government 
for the purpose of providing compensatory educational 
programs for children who are economically deprived, 
and with that, educationally below the standards that 
you normally find throughout the system, and that the 
government must have known - as is shown through the

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testimony that has already gone into evidence about 
census tracts - that it is true in many, many situations 
throughout the country as well as here - obviously 
they wouldn’t set up their census tracts as they do - 
that persons who are educationally or economically at 
the lower end of the scale will be more likely to be 
neighbors of each other than to be scattered through­
out the community among the population generally.

And then we are talking here about programs that 
provide better than $300.00 extra per person, where 
the total public expenditure for a year in the public 
school system will amount to maybe $500.00 or so. So 
that you are expending better than fifty percent extra 
per child through federal expenditure to provide these 
compensatory educational programs. You can economicall) 
provide these programs only - I say economically, they 
are expensive enough as it is, but even with these 
appropriations, you can really make an impact only if 
the children who are receiving the benefits of these 
special programs are available in groups large enough 
for it to make sense for special teachers, additional 
teachers, to be provided to furnish the programs. And 
so where these programs are being provided, they are 
undertaking to uplift the opportunities, the exposures, 
the learning process, for these children in a manner

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that could not be achieved if these children were
picked up from their neighborhoods and scattered 
throughout the system on some arbitrary basis. And it 
seems to us that when we are talking about the 
neighborhood concept, the idea of a school board 
acting in good faith, in a logical way, in an appro­
priate and lawful way, to bring the best education 
possible to the greatest number of children, that it 
is relevant for the record in this case to show that 
not only are the geographic attendance zone lines 
drawn in a normal logical way without attempting to 
put the children of one race in separate schools from 
children of another race, but that where the natural 
result of the neighborhood approach does bring together 
in certain schools - in this case, I believe Mr. Sar- 
baugh has testified there are eleven schools involved - 
these children who can be materially helped by this 
kind of program, that the School Board should be 
recognized as not only operating lawfully but commend- 
ably, when it takes advantage of these opportunities 
to provide these additional uplifting programs for 
those children, and that the Court again should be 
very slow to do that which would destroy the good thing 
that is being done through the use of these programs.

THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I fm trying to find how

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much more we've got to do here. How many more witnesses 
will you have? You may come down for now, Mr. Sarbaugh 

MR. WOMBLE: At the moment, Your Honor, it looks
like we will have probably two other witnesses, and 
time-wise, I'm not sure how much longer it will take 
to complete the examination of Mr. Sarbaugh, but the 
other two witnesses - actually there is a third one 
that we would like to use who will be out of town 
tomorrow. We may or may not feel that we really need 
to use him, depending upon whether the materials we 
expect - the evidence which we expect to put in through 
the first two will cover it. I would think that we 
could certainly complete with those two persons and 
Mr. Sarbaugh tomorrow.

THE COURT: I am hoping we can finish tomorrow.
As Mr. Stein knows, I have a matter that he is involved 
in that I have been requested to get into on Monday.

MR. WOMBLE: I might say this, Your Honor. When
I say this will complete it tomorrow, there is one 
other thing that we would ask the Court to do that we 
think would be almost essential in order for the 
evidence that has already been introduced to be put 
into perspective and to have the significance that it 
needs to have in order for the Court's decision in this 
matter to be the kind of decision that I am sure the

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Court would want, and that is that we would ask the 
Court to view the schools in the system, with the maps, 
and an opportunity to examine on the ground the 
boundaries, the areas that are served by the various 
schools, so that there can be a factual determination 
as to whether or not the maps and the testimony show 
these to be the fair lines that we say they are. The 
difficulty with the map is, as Your Honor fully 
appreciates, any map looks gerrymandered unless you 
make just upon a grid pattern, and it is easy to call 
something gerrymandered. But when you go into the 
area and examine it, then and only then can a real 
determination be made as to whether statements that 
are made are supported by facts.

THE COURT: Well, I don't know how much of that 
I'll be able to do. I haven't said anything about

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this, and so forth. You lawyers maybe should know 
Judge Stanly has been ill; he has been in bed for 
about a couple weeks. I don't know how long he'll be 
out. He's a little reluctant about it. I've been 
trying to take care of the emergency matters, and I am 
doing the best I can. As you know, we held court the 
other Saturday, and so forth. I don't know how much 
of that I can do. I have got to give this case some 
attention, and we have over thirty civil rights cases

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1 on my calendar here, and you lawyers know what is
2 involved in that. There are only so many hours, and
3 I must give any case whatever time is necessary to the
4 point that I feel like I have become knowledgeable
5 enough about it to make a decision about it. Of course,
6 I can't devote my life to one case, and I know this
7

•
matter is a matter of much concern on the part of many

8 parents, black and white, and often the views here are
9 not the views of the parents in this.
10 I have a telegram here - I don't much like that
11 sort of thing - there's nothing caustic about it - but
12 expressing views. I get letters and I get telephone
13 conversations. I don't talk about the merits of the
14 matters, but it is pretty hard to say to someone
15 simply, "I'm not going to talk to you about it." And
16 it is from both races. And what I hear here isn't
17 always what their opinion is about it. But I have got
18 to decide it on what is here. If I do go and look at
19 any of those areas, Mr. Womble, I would want to on my

•
own select whatever limited number of areas I felt like

21 time permitted, unless you and Mr. Stein could agree.
22 I think maybe it might be suspect if your Board or you
23 or Mr. Garrou selected one - I'm not indicating that
24 you would do so improperly - I just think that maybe
25 it would show an impartiality if I looked at it and

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selected some. I will make a ruling on that tomorrow, 
and see how far we get along and how much time we have.

Mr. Stein, you had something that you were going 
to say?

MR. STEIN: I was going to say that I really dicin'i
feel it would be necessary for the Court to inspect 
schools and zones, and there are 68 schools here and 
zones go around them. Our position is — not at least 
for the purpose of this motion for preliminary relief 
that we seek, it's not that the lines are irrationally 
drawn. The purpose of this motion, we would concede 
that they are rationally drawn. Our position is that 
testimony of the Superintendent that race was not a 
factor is sufficient to require them to redraw their 
lines, because we read the cases that race must be a 
factor in disestablishing a system. It must be a 
factor where the statistical showing shows that we 
have remaining all black and all white schools, where 
here every single school that was black in ’ 54 remains 
black today. We really think it would be a waste of 
the Court’s time and irrelevant to the case for the 
Court to go around and see if the line appears to be 
rational or not. We frankly have not put on any evi­
dence or pressed strenuously here about gerrymandering, 
because we don’t think that’s an item.

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THE COURT: Would you stipulate that there has
been no gerrymandering in this? I had the feeling—  

while we're talking about preliminary injunction here,
I have a feeling that this case is being heard on its 
merits, but I understand it's on a preliminary injunc­
tion.

MR. STEIN: I would be very reluctant to stipu­
late anything like that. I would stipulate that we 
have offered no proof that there has been gerrymander­
ing.

THE COURT: Your position simply is, Mr. Stein,
that there are still schools in which only one race is, 
and by that factor alone the result follows that there 
should be a new plan?

MR. STEIN: That's true. That's our position.
THE COURT: Mr. Garrou, in the morning, hopefully

with Dr. Sarbaugh - I can see some relevance about it, 
but it seems to me that we might shorten that con­
siderably, that much of the detail would not be neces­
sary, and I will allow you to proceed along that line.

Anything else that we should take care of before 
we recess?

MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I have one matter. We
listed as a witness the first time, and I informed the 
Court when we began, that we thought that we would

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probably want to call an educational expert in rebuttal 
and Dr. Larson from Rhode Island is here and has been 
here for a couple of days, and he has taken the oppor­
tunity to further study the system. But I would very 
much like to be able to offer his testimony tomorrow, 
even if it's out of order, since he's from out of 
town.

THE COURT: Well, if this goes into next week -
I want to hear the case that you made the motion in, 
and I intend to hear that on Monday, the first thing. 
But I can change my schedule around as soon as that is 
over, but if he is here—

MR. STEIN: I spoke with Mr. Womble.
THE COURT: If he’s here and out of state—
MR. WOMBLE: I told him we would accommodate him. 
THE COURT: We will put him on tomorrow so he

won't be here over the weekend. I imagine you people 
will want to present some oral argument, and not many 
lawyers can get through in a case like this—  I want 
to continue with the oral argument right on in after 
we have concluded the evidence in it. But right now 
I think I will be tentatively trying to change my 
schedule so that a day next week - and hopefully that 
we can get through with it tomorrow. Let's take a 
recess until in the morning at 9:30.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case 
was, adjourned, to-reconvene-at 9*50 a.m. January 23, 1970.)—

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C. 

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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: I had a call from Mr, Vanore - I

guess it was about 8:30 here this morning - ana he was 
having trouble. He said he had to return to Raleigh on 
some matters last evening, and he was having some trouble 
over in the vicinity of Burlington, and I told him that we 
would wait until 10:00 o ’clock, and then I felt that we 
should continue.

Now, reference to Mr. Stein’s further testimony, 
have you people come to some agreement about that?

MR. W0MBLE: Yes, sir, we have discussed that,
and in order to make sure that Dr. Larsen might not be 
delayed in returning, it is agreed that he would go on the 
stand first this morning.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. STEIN: We therefore call Dr. Larsen to be

sworn.

THu, COURT: Mr. Erlacher, will you make particular
note on your record where we start with this testimony, so 
that when Mr. Vanore gets here that he might want that read 
back to him during some recess, and if you'll make a note 
as to where he comes in, you will know where to stop with 
him. All right.
WHEREUPON,

JACK L. LARSEN

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, please state your 
full name.

A Jack L. Larsen.
Q Where do you live?
A I live at 73 Canonicus Trail, East Greenwich,

Rhode Island.
Q Where are you employed?
A Rhode Island College,
Q What is your position at Rhode Island College?
A I’m a professor of educational administration 

and chairman of the Department of Educational Administra­
tion and Supervision.

Q Could you please give us a summary of your own 
educational background?

A Yes, sir. I am a native of Iowa. I have my 
baccalaureate degree in English from the University of 
Northern Iowa, my Master of Arts degree in American Studies 
from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in educational 
administration from the University of Michigan.

Q Could you now give us a summary of your employ­
ment experience since you graduated from college?

A From 1947 until 1956, I was a teacher of high 
school English, social science, at Park High School in

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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you like some accounting of these?
Q Well, yes, could you briefly describe your work

in New England?
A Yes. I headed a team two years ago that did a 

study for the Providence Public School System that resulted 
in its reorganization. On my part, the study was largely 
in the secondary area. I have served as an educational 
consultant with the Department of Justice, the Civil Rights 
Division, U. S. Government.

Q Is that in connection with school desegregation?
A School desegregation, yes. This was a school 

desegregation case in Bertie County, North Carolina. I 
have served as an educational consultant with the Legal 
Defense and Educational Fund, Inc, on several school cases 
in North Carolina, one in Alabama, and two in Virginia.
I'd be happy to detail some of those if you wish.

Q Could you list the school systems involved in 
the work that you've done in North Carolina?

A Yes. I worked on several county school systems, 
for instance Pitt County, Johnston County, Beaufort County, 
Edenton, Chowan County, Washington City case, most recently 
Durham County, a Charlotte-Mecklenberg School System, and 
in Virginia most recently the Norfolk, Virginia, School 
System, and just before that the Portsmouth, Virginia, 
School System. Earlier this year I did advise on the State

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Training School System of Alabama.
Q Did you have occasion to do any work in connection 

with Concord City School System?
A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Do you mean here in North Carolina?
MR. STEIN: Yes.

Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, have you served or 
are you presently serving on any committees of governmental 
or quasi-govemmental nature?

A Yes, sir. In Rhode Island I am a member of the 
Governor's Advisory Committee on training schools and 
correctional institutions in the state. I am on the 
Governor's Advisory Task Force for Equal Educational 
Opportunities for the State of Rhode Island. I am a con­
sultant to the Title I office of the Educational Secondary 
and Elementary Act in Rhode Island, and was this fall an 
evaluator of innovative programs submitted under Title III 
of ESEA.

Q Is that also in Rhode Island?
A Rhode Island, yes, sir. I might mention that I 

have been asked by the Newport, RHode Island, Board of 
Education and the State Department of Education to do a 
reorganization study of the Newport public schools.

Q Is that study for the purpose of reorganizational—  

reorganizing a system to accomplish desegregation, or is it

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1 a general study, or both?
A One of its purposes is desegregation. It has 

several purposes.
Q Dr. I.arsen, have you had occasion to examine the 

answers to interrogatories filed by the Winston-Salem/ 
Forsyth County Board of Education in this case?

A Yes, sir, I have looked at that data.
Q Have you had an opportunity to examine the maps

Included in those answers to interrogatories?
A Yes, sir, a map similar to the one on the easel.
Q Have you had an opportunity to familiarize your­

self to any extent of physical layout of the school district 
here?

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A Yes, sir. I have toured the district and looked 
at the schools from the outside and the surrounding areas.

Q How much time have you spent in Winston-Salem, 
Forsyth County?

A I was here for two days two weeks ago, and then 
j.ast week I went to Charlotte and examined more of the data

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t-te.r-e ^  ~--£ offices of Mr. Chambers and yourcerf, and I 
returned to Winston-Salem Wednesday afternoon this ween. 

Q Have you been here since then?
A Yes, sir.
w four study of the system here, what have you

attempted to find out and what have you attempted to do?

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O f f h  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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A I attempted to get a picture of the system in 
my study of the data, to discover what the enrollment 
patterns are in each of the schools of the system, what 
evidences there are of overcrowding in the schools, what 
evidences there are of enrollment undercrowding, you might 
say, the relationships of schools to each other, the ways 
in which the elementary schools are fed into the junior 
high schools, and the senior high schools, the present 
attendance areas, and this type of thing. I have been 
trying to - by working with it, to get a picture of it so 
that I can comment at least intelligently about it.

Q Have you analyzed the figures supplied by the 
local Board of Education which show the attendance at each 
of the schools by race?

A Yes, sir. That was one of the exhibits in the 
answers to interrogatories, projected enrollments for the 
school year 1969-1970.

Q Have you also seen figures which were offered 
yesterday as Defendants' Exhibit 26?

A May I see that, Mr. Stein? Yes, sir. I made a 
copy of this yesterday afternoon when you brought it to me 
at the lunch break.

Q Dr. Larsen, how did you proceed to analyze the 
statistical data showing enrollment by race?

A I made up for my own purposes a series of tables

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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that would enable me to examine the enrollment in each 
school by race, by faculty assignment, including year of 
construction, capacity, site acreage, and this type of data, 
for each of the schools. And then studied those figures 
in order to reach some kind of conclusion from them.

Q How did you organize the data to come to some con­
clusion? Did you establish categories?

A I established categories, yes. I like to work 
from definitions. I have the impression - have had for 
several years - that unless each person using the word 
"desegregation" or "integration" or "segregation", he finds 
what he means when he uses the word. It’s very difficult 
to know precisely what he's talking about. Therefore, as 
a professional, when I look at a school district, whether 
it is Winston-Salem or Newport or wherever, I try to arrive 
at a definition for myself that I can apply then in my con­
sideration of that district, and this I tried to do in 
Winston-Salem.

Q Could you first tell us the definitions you 
arrived at for "desegregation", if there are one or more 
than one, and then explain to the Court how you arrived at 
those definitions.

A Yes, sir. It is my opinion that a desegregated 
school in Winston-Salem should reflect in its student body 
enrollment the ratio composition of the grade level.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

WINSTON SALEM. N C

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MR. WQMBLE: We object to his statement as to
what it should.

THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: May I continue then?
THE COURT: Yes.

A A desegregated school - if I can say it perhaps 
differently - in Winston-Salem is one in which the student 
body enrollment reflects within ten percentage points the 
racial composition of that grade level in the system as a 
whole. Now, in my opinion, this constitutes a desegregated 
school. If for instance, the black-white relationship in 
the district would be 24 percent black to 76 percent white, 
a particular elementary school would reflect that percentage 
within ten percentage points. In other words, it would be 
at 14 percent to 34 percent black population. This is what 
I mean by desegregation.

Q (By Mr. Stein) Well, did you find, in fact, that 
this was approximately the black-white ratio in the system?

A No, sir. In the system, yes, sir. In the 
system - if I can refer to a note - from the data available 
to me until yesterday dealing with student enrollment, 
the elementary schools were about 22 percent Negro in the 
system as a whole, to 78 percent white. The secondary 
schools, the junior high schools, were approximately 76

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t l r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

WINSTON SALEM. N C

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percent white, 24 percent Negro. The senior high schools, 
77 percent white to 23 percent. This is in the district 
as a whole.

Q Well, in looking at the elementary schools then, 
what were the ranges which would meet your definition of 
a desegregated school?

A In the elementary schools, a desegregated school, 
according to my definition, would run from 12 percent to 
32 percent Negro. Applying that percentage ratio, there 
are two elementary schools in the district that qualify as 
desegregated schools.

Q How many elementary schools are there?
A There are forty-two in the district as a whole, 

countirg the Children’s Center and the Children's Home as 
elementary schools. So there would be two elementary 
schools in the district that would qualify as desegregated 
schools.

Q In your analysis, did you establish any other 
classifications?

A Yes, sir.
Q Excuse me, Dr. Larsen. Could you name the two 

schools there?
A Yes, sir. According to my figures, Brunson 

Elementary School and Old Richmond Elementary School are 
desegregated elementary schools. Brunson has 25 percent

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Negro; Old Richmond 12 percent. So they both fall within 
the 12 percent to 32 percent population.

Q The Old Richmond School is white at the outside 
of the range you were establishing?

A One end of it, yes, sir.
Q You were talking about other classifications?
A Yes, of a desegregated school is, as I have 

commented, as being in my opinion a segregated school is 
one in which the majority race is more than 90 percent, 
where the minority race would be 10 percent of the popula­
tion.

Q In applying that category to the elementary 
schools in the system, what did you find?

A I found that of the 42 elementary schools in the 
system, 36 come under the classification of segregated 
elementary schools.

Q So those would be schools with 10 or less percent 
of black enrollment?

A Yes, sir.
Q I don't think that quite adds up to 42. Is there 

another category?
A Yes, sir. I have a third category of schools. 

This is the category that fits between the desegregated 
school and a segregated school, and I merely call this a 
racially mixed school. This is where—  a racially mixed

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school in my definition is one in which the minority race 
of the student body is more than 10 percent of the total, 
but less or more than the range appropriate for a desegre­
gated school.

G So with elementary schools, what would be the 
percentage black which would come within a racially mixed 
school, by your definition?

A It would be ten percent to twelve percent, or 
over thirty-two percent.

Q How many schools did you find in that category?
A I found two. Easton Elementary School is 43 

percent Negro, which puts it above the ratio of Negro 
desegregated school. Petree Elementary School was 11 percent 
Negro, which puts it obviously between 10 percent and 12.

Q So in summary, there were four schools that either 
were in your desegregated category as defined, or in your 
mixed category as defined, and the rest were segregated by 
your definition?

A Yes.
Q Now, what did you find at the junior high schools?
A Applying the same definitions in the junior high

schools, a junior high school, to be desegregated, would 
have a Negro enrollment of between 14 and 34 percent. There 
is therefore one desegregated junior high school in the 
district out of the seventeen Junior high schools. Wiley is

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30 percent Negro, according to the projected findings made 
available to me.

Q Now, what about your second category of racially 
mixed schools? How many came within that range?

A One junior high school, Northwest, has 12 percent 
Negro population, which is rated just below the lower 
range of desegregation.

MR. WOMBLE: Which one was that?
THE WITNESS: Northwest.

Q (By Mr. Stein) How many fell within your 
definition of a segregated school?

A There are fifteen racially segregated junior 
high schools in the district. These fifteen have the 
minority race of less than 10 percent. Five of the fifteen 
are segregated Negro junior high schools, and ten of the 
fifteen are segregated white junior high schools.

Q Backing up, do you have the same kind of break­
down for the white segregated elementary schools? How 
many are segregated white and how many are segregated black?

A There are 36 elementary schools that could be 
classified as segregated. 26 of these are white, 10 are 
segregated Negro.

Q Moving on to the high schools, first tell us 
what the range would be for the desegregated high school 
according to your definition.

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WINSTON SALEM. N C

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A Yes. From the data made available to me, there 
are 11,047 high school students. Of this total, 8,404 or 
70 percent were white; 2,643 or 23 percent were Negro. 
Therefore a desegregated senior high school, according to 
my definition, will house a student population 13 percent 
to 33 percent Negro.

Q Dr. Larsen, what was the percentage white for 
high school?

A 23 percent Negro and 77 percent white in high 
schools.

Q How many of the high schools meet your definition 
of desegregation?

A Two.
Q Which high schools are those?
A North Forsyth and Reynolds. Both have approximate­

ly sixteen percent Negro population, therefore fall within 
the 13 to 33 percent classification.

Q How many fall in the mixed school classification?
A I found none.
Q How many came within the segregated classification7
A Seven. Seven segregated senior high schools.
Q How many of those are segregated white and how 

many segregated black?
A Three are black, Anderson, Atkins and Carver.

Four segregated white, East Forsyth, Mount Tabor, Parkland,

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West Forsyth, all have less than 10 percent of Negro 
population.

Q Did you make any analysis of the curricula 
offered at the various secondary schools?

A Yes, I did. Y/ould you like a comment on that?
Q Would you describe how you proceeded to analyze

the data and what your conclusions were?
A Yes. I might preface that by a comment, if I 

may, Mr. Stein. I am fully aware that Winston-Salem has 
many school districts of good quality, offers a senior high 
school course listing available to all schools in the 
district, and the only qualification for a school to offer 
any course that is available on the total course listings 
is that there be enough students to warrant offering a 
selective. One of the unfortunate effects in our culture 
of segregated schools, particularly black schools, is that 
it is very difficult to get together a class or a group of 
youngsters large enough to warrant offering some of the 
courses that we could classify as enrichment, advanced level, 
the kinds of school work that help make a cultivated human 
being, in my opinion. This is almost an inevitable tragedy 
in our system. V/hen schools become desegregated at the 
secondary level, we find that black children will tend then 
to take these culturally enriching coui’ses and profit there­
by . I have talked to many superintendents in the south and

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WINSTON SALEM. N C

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in the segregated north, and this is one of their very- 
serious concerns. They want to offer advanced courses in 
the languages, higher mathematics, in the arts, in all of 
their schools, and they find it very difficult to do so in 
the all-Negro or majority Negro schools. I'm sorry to 
lecture, but I have a real concern here, and I think that 
is happening in Winston-Salem, as it is happening in many, 
many places.

Q Could you tell us where you looked to find out 
this information, and what it was you found in Winston?

A Yes. One of the answers to interrogatories 
filed by the School Board was a listing of courses available 
in the senior high school, and a listing of the senior 
high schools in which each of those courses was offered, 
and I studied that table and reached some conclusions from 
it that illustrate, I think, the point I was trying to make. 
The three senior high schools which are either a majority 
black or exclusively black - Carver, Anderson and Atkins - 
are lacking in some of these areas, and I am sure this is 
a very genuine concern of Mr. Sarbaugh and Mr. Ward.

Q Which courses did you find were offered at the 
white high schools which were - given, not offered, at 
white high schools which were not given at these three 
schools, or some of them?

A Journalism, in the advanced course, journalism II

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is offered, at West and at Reynolds and Parkland; it's not 
offered at the three black high schools, nor is it offered 
at East or Mount Tabor. Some of the advanced speech courses, 
advanced composition, is offered at most of the white high 
schools; it’s not offered at the three black high schools. 
World literature is offered at two of the white high schools, 
and none of the black high schools. Consumer math is 
offered at two of the white high schools and none of the 
black. The fourth and fifth year math is offered at most 
of the white high schools and none of the black. Advanced 
biology is offered at two of the white high schools and none 
of the black. Geology is offered at two of the white high 
schools and none of the black. The same with ecology. Arts 
and humanities is offered at Reynolds only. World cultures 
is offered at four of the white high schools, none of the 
black. The fourth year of art is offered at two of the 
white high schools and none of the black. Second-year 
bookkeeping is offered at three of the white high schools 
and none of the black. I was very disappointed to find 
corporative business training was not offered at the black 
high schools.

Q Where was that offered?
A It was offered at two of the white high schools, 

North and Parkland. I noticed that the fourth year of 
Spanish was not offered at the black high schools, but is

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offered at three of the white high schools. I noticed that 
the fourth year - the third and fourth year of Latin are 
offered at four of the white high schools, and none at the 
black. These are indications deriving from, I think, the 
kind of culture in which we live, and I am quite certain 
that if the Winston-Salem School System were desegregated 
at the senior high level, that many of these courses would 
be successfully offered at each of the schools. I have 
great confidence that that would happen. I don't mean to 
imply that this is a deliberate attempt on the part of the 
school administration to deprive boys and girls of a kind 
of cultural enrichment. I think it is an inevitability of 
all black high schools.

THE COURT: Doctor, did you have an opportunity
to study the planned construction about some additional 
schools that has been testified about here?

THE WITNESS: Planned construction in the future?
THE COURT: Yes, if they had the bond money for

some schools. Did you have an opportunity to study 
that?

HIE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: I was going to ask you what, if any,

effect you thought that would have on the problems that 
you are talking about.

THE WITNESS: I think, Your Honor, the courses that

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I mentioned here, I tried to identify not necessarily 
higher vocational courses or specific trades courses, 
which takes usually expensive installation of equip­
ment, this sort of thing, and probably can be offered 
not in all high schools, but they should be, but the 
courses that are in the enrichment category that take 
a requisite number of students and a teacher, and can 
be offered in regular classrooms.

THE COURT: But if they were closing out some of
the all black high schools - and there is some informa­
tion here about a school in the southwest quadrant 
and one in the northwest quadrant, where they were all 
sent together, then it would put the students together 
where these courses could be offered.

THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honor. If the
students could be put together either in the present 
buildings or in future buildings, the important thing 
in my opinion is that they could be put together.
This then, I think, would make available these kinds 
of experiences for all youngsters, and they would have 
enough takers, you see.

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Stein.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you prefaced your 

remarks about curriculum with the comment that these courses 
are either offered or not offered because of demand.

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A Yes.
Q What in your opinion affects demand? Let me ask 

the question again. You also said that you thought some bla 
children in an integrated situation would take the course. 
Why would they take the course in the white school where 
they didn't take it in the black school?

A Yes. I think the answer to that is two-fold, Mr. 
Stein. In the first place, there may be in the black school 
four or five youngsters who would be interested in the 
course, and it's very difficult to offer a course for four 
or five youngsters unless the school district is a very 
wealthy one. They may not then get in the course. If 
these four or five are in desegregated, completely desegre­
gated senior high school, they would be part of a group of 
say, fifteen, and then the course could be offered 
economically. This is one criteria obviously. The other 
criterion is a little more difficult to pin down. And it 
is, I think, has a historical base, and I think Mr. Ward 
and Mr. Sarbaugh would be more informed on this than I 
would. But in the south and in the many parts of the north 
where the tradition is all black high schools, Negro high 
schools, dating back for perhaps several generations, the 
tendency of the past up to the fairly recent present has 
not been to offer culturally enriching courses in black 
high schools. This is a comparatively new phenomenon, and

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being comparatively new even eithin the last generation or 
so, means that the black youngsters have not been used to 
electing courses of this nature, because the courses perhaps, 
because of historical or economical rules, are not available 
to them or have not been available. They are not used to 
taking it. It is not part of their life style perhaps.
We find the same thing in Providence, for instance, when we 
integrated the secondary school and brought the youngsters 
together throughout the system, that we were offering more 
courses in these cultural enriching areas than we had before, 
and yet we had the same number of youngsters. We merely 
had them in a different type of composition.

Q Moving on, Dr. Larsen, did you analyze any other 
aspect of the system comparing black and white?

A In the study of the zoning and attendance areas,
I tried to determine what the elementary attendance areas, 
junior high attendance areas, senior high attendance areas, 
are, so I can get a picture of where youngsters come from 
and where they go to school and what schools they feed into 
above the elementary level.

Q Now, did you make any attempt to determine what 
approach might be taken towards desegregating the schools, 
if in fact they are segregated, as many of them may be, by 
your definition?

A I have no magic plan to offer as a result of my

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brief time to stutfy. There is an approach that I believe 
can be taken that will result in a great deal more desegre­
gation than present, and it will not necessarily discommode 
the entire school system to such a degree that it would be 
like a process of any visitation we have in the school 
district;nine senior high school districts - if I may use 
that as the term - nine senior high school districts. There 
is an approach in school district reorganization that goes 
after the problem by taking the given - taking the nine 
sub-districts in this case, and through a combination of 
them arriving at a different kind of district mix, we might 
say. This is, I think, a logical approach for a school 
administrator to use, and certainly in my opinion should be 
the first approach, because it is by all means the most 
primarily logical one.

THE COURT: All right. Now, you tell me that so
I can understand it. If they should tell me to order 
these schools to integrate within a week—  you explain 
that to me - I'm sure you're qualified in your field - 
Just a little more in detail what you're talking about. 
A Yes, sir, I will. Only with the statement that 

it isn't magic, but it would seem logical. Would you like 
me to go—

Q (By Nr. Stein) Yes. Would you come to the map? 
Let me ask a couple more preliminary questions, Your Honor.

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THE COURTs All right.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Have you made any determination 

or preliminary determination as to which senior high school 
districts you would combine so that you could proceed to 
desegregate the school?

A Yes, logically—  I went in it this way. Is it 
possible to make bigger districts out of the smaller ones 
to do something? And there were nine senior high school 
districts. And this is what I have done, in this provisional 
manner.

THE COURT: Mr. Erlacher, will you mark this part
of his testimony so that I can get it back without too 
much trouble when I get into studying this.
A What I have done is to take the present Carver 

High School District - from now on, I ’ll use the word 
"district" - I mean "high school district" to cover high 
school district - the present Carver High School District, 
the present Atkins High School District, ^ust below it, 
the present East Forsyth District, and the present North 
Forsyth District, and made one large school, senior high 
district, of it, which would take this section.

THE COURT: That’s Carver, East Forsyth, and what
other?

THE WITNESS: Atkins, Carver, which you know,
Your Honor, is right here (indicating). North Forsyth

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and East Forsyth, the four.
THE COURT: All right.

A And put them into what I would call District One. 
Now, in District No. 1, you would have obviously all of the 
elementary schools, junior high schools, and senior high 
schools presently in that area. Now, in District No. 1, 
in order to desegregate the black elementary schools, and 
with combinations of the white, I formed a cluster for 
grouping of Skyland, which is right here (indicating), with 
Petree and Sedge Garden, which go out.

THE COURT: You grouped Skyland?
THE WITNESS: I call this Group A.
THE COURT: Petree and what?
THE WITNESS: Sedge Garden.
THE COURT: All right.

A Now, there are basically two ways in which we can 
group or pair elementary schools to reach some kind of 
racial mix. One is by assigning grades, by assigning schools 
by specific grades - I ’m sure you’re familiar with that,
Your Honor - for instance, putting grades one and two in 
Skyland, three and four in Petree, five and six in Sedge 
Garden, and calling this one elementary attendance area.
I have chosen not to take necessarily that fact - I don’t 
know precisely where the youngsters live; I don’t have a 
spot map showing the precise home locations of each of the

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youngsters attending each of these three schools. So I 
assume that the youngsters attending Petree are living 
around Petree, the youngsters attending Sedge Garden are 
living around Sedge Garden, and the youngsters attending 
Skyland are living around Skyland. What I say is a possi­
bility is for these three schools now being one attendance 
area. The school district could assign grades one through 
six in each of the three schools. Now, they would have to 
take two things into consideration - number one, the proxi­
mity of the youngsters’ homes to the school, and number 
two is the race of the youngster. Now, using the figures 
that are presently—  the number of boys and girls presently 
assigned to each of these three schools, this would mean - 
if this can be done - you would have a majority white, 
minority black, student body in Skyland, Petree and Sedge 
Garden.

G (By Mr, Stein) Dr. Larsen, in your testimony you 
are using the figures which were the projected figures for 
this year, rather than the figures given yesterday?

A Yes.
Q I think it’s important that he work on those 

figures.
A I didn’t have time to revise everything since 

yesterday afternoon when I received the new figures. I 
have looked them over, and they are basically the same in

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-849-

ratio of black and white except for one school.
THE COURT: I would like to have from you some

support, because this is a complicated matter, and it 
takes a little thought.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, we have never suggested

what was to be done isn’t complicated to us; it’s 
Just simple to us that it needs to be done.

THE COURT: You insisted that I do this by
February 1st, Hr. Stein.

MR. STEIN: We’ve asked you to ask them to do it.
THE WITNESS: I would like to say, Your Honor,

that I find it somewhat embarrassing to come down with 
even what seems to be magic. The central school 
administration is privy to a lot more data than I am, 
obviously, and would be able to do it much more quickly 
than I could. I don't bring a staff along.

THE COURT: Of course, if they bring it to the
Judge and tell him that this is it, he would cast into 
it—  since last Wednesday—  it would likely, in your 
opinion take him a little time to absorb it and evaluate 
it, wouldn’t it?

THE WITNESS: Yes, and I think that he could call
on the school administration, the Board of Education, 
to help him. I would like to say, Your Honor, that I

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-850-

don't think that this is my Job, and I don’t think 
it's your Job; I think it's their Job basically.

The second grouping of elementary schools in 
District On® is—  I have taken Carver Elementary and 
Fairview Elementary and grouped them with this cluster 
up here - Oak Summit, Mineral Springs, and Prince 
Ibraham. That means taking the two black elementary 
schools and grouping them with the three predominantly 
white—

MR. WOMBLE: Excuse me Just a minute. That was
Fairview and what?

THE WITNESS: Carver Elementary.
THE COURT: And grouped with Prince Ibraham?
THE WITNESS; Yes. I think that's the way it's 

pronounced - Mineral Springs Elementary and Oak Summit 
Elementary. And I suggest that the school district do 
what they have themselves suggested doing, that is 
closing Brown Elementary School. According to the 
figures I have, there are enough spaces - student 
vacant spaces - in Oak Summit, Petree, Prince Ibraham, 
Mineral Springs, to absorb the youngsters from Brown, 
and I would suggest closing Brown and assigning those 
youngsters to schools that have vacant spaces. That 
leaves us, Your Honor, with two majority, or exclusively 
black elementary schools in District One. Those are

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-851-

North Elementary and 14th Street Elementary. I agree 
with the Board in one of its plans for the future—
C (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you say the Board’s 

plan, and you are in agreement with the Board. You are 
referring to a survey by the State Department of a few years 

ago?
A Yes. The State Department survey in ’64, I 

believe, and the Peabody report last spring, and as I can 
recall, I have a note on that somewhere, they both suggested 
closing Brown. What I’ve tried to accomplish, Your Honor, 
is to desegregate elementary education in this new district 
by grouping the black schools with white schools and 
assigning to each school the students by nearness to that 
school and by race, to obtain a majority white, minority 
black composition in each of the elementary schools, --.nd 
then I suggest — and I frankly have not had time to work 
out the statistical detail and the feeder system - that it 
be developed from the elementary schools to the Junior high 
schools and senior high schools in the district that will, 
in effect, render each of those majority black - majority 
white to minority black. And the composition of black and 
white in a new district makes that quite possible.

Q Dr. Larsen, I ’m not sure you finished saying what
you would do with North and 14th Street.

A Yes. In the short run, I believe that North and

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14th Street will have to oe utilized. I believe that if
they are utilized in the short run, they will remain majority 
black schools. I suggest that as soon as feasible, that 
the school district close those out, or use the buildings 
for other purposes, as has been suggested in several other 
surveys. Their location is such that it would be difficult 
to do much else with them. Now, I would suggest reducing 
the student body in them by assigning to other schools 
where the pupils' residence makes that possible, but I do 
not think that they can reduce it down to zero now. May I 
proceed?

Q Yes.
A I believe that by developing a feeder system from 

the new elementary setup into the junior high and senior 
high in District One, we can desegregate the schools. And 
I suggest - I would suggest, frankly, that this be done.
If I can move to another district—

Q All right.
A I have taken the Mount Tabor District, Your Honor, 

which is In here (indicating), and combined it with the 
present Reynolds District, which is contiguous to it, and 
we can call that District No. 2. Rather than specifying
every single move of every single child, what I have tried 
to do here is to take the elementary schools - there are
three majority to exclusively black elementary schools - in

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this new district now, this is District No. 2, Kimberly 
Park, Carver Crest—

THE COURT: .Wait a minute.
THE WITNESS: I ’m sorry.
THE COURT: Two or three elementary schools?
THE WITNESS: There are three elementary schools

that are majority black or exclusively block - Kimberly 
Park is here, Carver Crest is just below it, and 
Lowrance is just above it (indicating). Now, I suggest 
that these three schools be grouped with a number of 
white elementary schools and that the students be 
assigned to the school of the group by nearness to the 
school and by race. Now, the elementary schools I 
would suggest combining with Kimberly Park, Carver 
Crest anu Lowrance are Speas—

THE COURT: Now, wait a minute; a little more
slowly.

THE WITNESS: Speas.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Whitaker, cherwood Forest, Moore,

Brunson, and Ardmore.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: This would mean a grouping which

would look something like this; we can look at it in 
the form of a circle.

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Q (By Mi'. Stein) About how large is the area that 
you described on the map*?

A From Sherwood Forest, wiiich is the fartherest, 
it’s a litt-e over two miles as the crow flies, to Kimberly 
Park. 1 would think that from the extremes of that grouping, 
that the distance would run about three to three and a half 
miles from one end to the other. 1 am aware obviously that 
the youngsters now attending Kimbei'ly Park don't ail live 
on top of it; some of them live several blocks above and 
several blocks below, or whatever.

THE COURT: bo you know enough about the racial
patterns in Winston-balem to say whether or not the 
plan which you are suggesting, and to obtain a ratio 
which you deem a desegregated school, whether that 
would require busing or not?

THE WITNESS: I can't say exactly, Your Honor. I
must assume, not having a pupil spot map, that the 
pupils attending a particular school today live within 
a short distance of that school. I'm assuming tnat, 
and I cannot say precisely how much busing would be 
needed here; there would probably be some. I am trying, 
obviously, I am sure you realize, to keep it co as 
small amount as possible ana still arrive at a majority 
white ana a minority black elementary school. Then I 
would assume in District 2 a feeder system from the

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elementary schools to the secondary in such a manner 
as to desegregate secondary education. I'm sure 
Your Honor realizes that secondary education is never 
the most difficult to desegregate, because you can do 
it by feeding into it. The third district I would 
suggest is a combination of Anderson and Parkland 
districts into District No. 3.

THE COURT: Just a minute.
THE WITNESS: Anderson and Parkland. The Anderson

district is this geographically small one here, and 
Parkland is Just below it (indicating).

THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: It would be this (indicating on

map).
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Using the same basic approach, Your

Honor, I would take Diggs Elementary School, which is 
predominantly or exclusively black, and by combining it 
with South Park and Konnoak arrive at a majority v/hite 
and minority black in each of those three elementary 
schools. By assigning in the same way as the other 
groupings by nearness and by race, I would take the 
same approach with Mebane, combining it with Forest 
Park and Waughtown.

THE COURT: You combine Mebane with—

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TIE WITNESS; Forest Park, and moving on to 
Waughtown. We would have two groupings of elementary 
schools in this new District No. 3. And then assign­
ing a feeder system through secondary schools, which 
would desegregate those.

The fourth district, Your Honor, I would say, 
and the last one, is the West Forsyth District, which 
is presently this one (indicating). There are large 
distances and few schools, and I would suggest leaving 
it as it is, fully realizing that we wind up with 
predominantly white elementary schools.

THE COURT: Now, that’s going to violate your
definition, isn't it?

THE WITNESS; It's going to violate my definition, 
yes, it is, to that degree. My first consideration was 
to see what I could do in getting rid of all black, 
majority black, schools and rendering a majority white, 
minority black elementary and secondary system.
Having done that, I am not ready, Your Honor, to recom­
mend that we take youngsters and move them all over 
the district (indicating on map). I think as time 
develops, districts should look forward to rendering 
Vienna, Lewisville, Clemmons, for instance, as desegre­
gated schools.

THE COURT; In a unitary system that is unitary,

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that lends itself to additional improvement and so on, 
in a more complete unitary system, isn't that what you 
are saying?

THE WITNESS: I don't think you build Rome com-
t

pletely overnight, Your Honor.
When you have here, as you have here, a county- 

city system historically, because you are going to have 
schools at the extremes of the county, all the way 
around. Having desegregated the center part of the 
entire area, then I would suggest then move in such a 
way - and I don't remember dates of construction of 
these outlying schools, but perhaps eventaully those 
schools could be used for other purposes, or abandoned 
and the student population brought in closer. This is 
the inevitable consequence in many city-county systems.

THE COURT: Now, before we leave it, your Fourth
District - and maybe you can tell me qgain other than 
just showing me on the map - maybe Mr. Stein and Mr. 
Womble can tell me what that encompasses, so that I 
will have it here in my notes.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it encompasses the Vienna
Elementary—

THE COURT: All right; just a minute. All right,
Vienna Elementary.

THE WITNESS: The Lewisville and Clemmons Elements

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Schols. Yes, those three elementary schools; Southwest
and West Forsyth Senior High.

THE COURT: All right. Those are the ones?
THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, in saying that you 
would recommend leaving the West Forsyth District as it is, 
did you consider ways that the secondary schools there, the 
Junior high school and high school, could be desegregated?

A They could be. I have not worked that out, but 
they could be by bringing people from the inner part, from 
graduates of elementary schools in the inner city area, and 
assigning them out to the Junior high so that you would 
develop a feeder system that way (indicating on map).

Q Dr. Larsen, as the district is presently consti- 
tued, when assignments are made, a great many children go 
very long distances to secondary schools, is that true?

A Yes, sir. You take in the entire county, you 
have considerable distances.

Q And that is also normal, isn't it?
A By all means, by all means. I understand that

historically when Carver High Scnool - sitting here some 
years ago - 1 believe Mr. Ward's testimony was that all of 
the black youngsters in the county went to it. That meant 
that they were being brought from all over to that school.
It must have looked like a huge bus lot. This is inevitable

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when you have these long distances.
Q Dr. Larsen, in preparing your plan, or your 

approach, I think you described it, it's true, is it not, 
that you were trying to develop an approach which could be 
implemented quickly, could be developed and implemented 
quickly?

A Yes, sir.
Q And that in terms of longer range planning, that 

there might be ways to improve the situation of the out­
lying schools, and you suggested possible other uses for 
14th Street and North?

A Yes, sir.
Q Now, is it possible to develop a more intricate 

plan without a spot map showing where children live by race?
A The only other way I would know to do it and 

develop a more detailed and intricate plan would be with a 
spot map, or at least with a grid map that would locate each 
youngster within a half a mile throughout the city-county. 
This is what we used in the Charlotte case, for instance, 
and were able to work rather detailed on that basis, but 
without that, any person is assuming that where the schools 
are now is near where the youngsters live, and you can't go 
much beyond that assumption. Go there has to be necessarily 
somewhat general—

Q Do you have any estimate, as professor of adminis-

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tration, how long it would take - beginning with your 
approach as a hypothesis - to develop and implement a plan 
to accomplish what you are suggesting be accomplished here?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A I must assume, as X said a little while ago, that 
the school administration is privy to considerably more 
data than anybody coming in from the outside can absorb, 
and based upon that assumption and based upon my experience 
in the field and in the administration, I think that this 
grouping plan of elementary schools - the majority white 
to minority black - and feeding systems into secondary 
could be accomplished in a few weeks, or perhaps a bit 
before that.

THE COURT: Do you think that's educationally
sound, as an educator?

THE WITNESS: You mean moving the children, Your
Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't think it is educationally

unsound, no, sir.
THE COURT: You don't feel like moving a child

from one school - and you say it's principally in the 
lower grades, your elementary schools - in moving a 
child in the middle of the year, that child being

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adjusted in the present classroom, that that would 
cause no great problem, education-wise?

THE WITNESS: I don't think it would cause any
great problem, no, sir. I have great confidence in 
the resiliency of children, end in the understanding 
and cooperation of teachers. I think that what happens 
at the change point itself is not as important as 
what happens immediately following the change, and I 
think sometimes we fall into a trap, that we change 
youngsters and then abandon then. I am encouraged to 
see training sessions in Winston-Salem for youngsters, 
for parents, for teachers; and we know through all 
kinds of research in the last several years that the 
support given teachers in classes by the administra­
tion, by the Board, and by the community is the most 
important ingredient. Based on that professional type 
assumption, I think this could be done, and I don't 
think it would hurt the youngsters educationally or 
in any other way. Then it is done, Your Honor. The 
uncertainty of doing something, a little now and a 
little later, a little more later, is perhaps more 
galling and more upsetting to youngsters and parents 
than aoing the whole job.

THE COURT: But assuming the whole job was going
to be done on September 1st, the beginning of next year,

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a n d  y o u  h a v e  l e s s  t h a n  n i n e t y  d a y s  o f  s c h o o l  l e f t  h e r e  

i n  t h i s  s c h o o l  y e a r —  I 'm  n o t  t a l k i n g  a b o u t ,  y o u  k n o w , 

g r a d u a l l y  a c c r e t i o n  t o  so m e  s y s t e m  p r e m i s e d  o n  t h a t .  

W hat d o  y o u  s a y ?  Y ou  r e a l i z e  t h a t  w e a r e  n ow  i n  t h e  

l a t t e r  p a r t  o f  J a n u a r y  -  I  h a v e n ’ t  c o u n t e d  th e m  u p ,  

b u t  c e r t a i n l y  l e s s  t h a n  a  h u n d r e d  s c h o o l  d a y s  l e f t ,  

a c t u a l  s c h o o l  d a y s .  Was y o u r  s t a t e m e n t  b a s e d  o n  t h e  

p r e m i s e  t h a t  e v e n  com e S e p t e m b e r ,  t h e r e  w o u ld  b e  a  

g r a d u a l  m o v in g  i n t o  so m e u n i t a r y  p l a n  w h en  y o u  a n s w e r e d  

t h a t  y o u  t h o u g h t  i t  w a s  n o t  u n s o u n d ?

THE WITNESS: I  t h i n k  y o u  c a n  d o  t h e  w h o le  t h i n g

n ow  b e f o r e  t h e  e n a  o f  t h i s  s c h o o l  y e a r ,  a n d  d o  w h a t e v e r  

p o l i s h i n g  u p  n e e d s  t o  b e  d o n e  b y  S e p t e m b e r .  I  f e a r  

l a g s ;  I  h a v e  s e e n  i t  s o  o f t e n  -  n o t  d e l i b e r a t e  l a g s ,  

b u t  l a g s  b e t w e e n  t h e  d e c i d i n g  o f  a  t h i n g  a n d  t h e  

a c c o m p l i s h m e n t  o f  t h a t ;  t h a t  t h e  m o re  w e c a n  s h o r t e n  

t h e  l a g  b e t w e e n  t h e  d e c i d i n g  o f  s o m e t h i n g  a n d  t h e  

a c c o m p l i s h m e n t  o f  t h a t ,  I  t h i n k  t h e  b e t t e r  o f f  w e a r e ,  

i n  d e a l i n g  w i t h  t h e  p u b l i c  a n d  e x p l a i n i n g  i t  t o  th e m ,  

a n d  i n  t h e  e n d ,  t h e  k i n d  o f  m o r a le  f a c t o r  am ong f a c u l t y  

a n d  s t u d e n t s ;  t h e  k i n d  o f  s u p p o r t  f a c t o r  I  m e n t i o n e d .

I  t h i n k  t h a t  l e a v e - t i m e  s h o u l d  b e  s h o r t e n e d  a s  m uch a s  

a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l y  p o s s i b l e .

THE COURT: O f c o u r s e ,  y o u  d o n ' t  t r y  c a s e s  o n  w h a t

y o u  r e a d  i n  n e w s p a p e r s  o r  w h a t  y o u  r e c e i v e  i n  l e t t e r s ,

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but I read for adult teachers, this change - both 
black and white - has caused considerable trauma for 
the individual teacher, this move that they have made, 
and that if they are honest with us, then it looks 
like some child - well, it would be even more upsetting 
I ’m not in the field of education and I am some several 
years removed from my childhood, but I still remember 
something about it. When you change even from a class 
to a new teacher, there is difficulty and so forth.

All right. Will your examination go on some bit
yet?

MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I think it might be ten
or fifteen minutes more.

THE COURT: Well, we will take a morning recess.
You may come down; let’s take a recess now.

(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, if you will come back to

the stand, please. All right, Mr. Stein.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you testified earlier 

that you had acted as a consultant in school desegregation 
cases in other school districts. Could you give us your 
estimate as to whether the ^ob of desegregating the schools, 
according to your definition, is more or less difficult 
here than in the other districts you’ve looked at?

A Comparisons are somewhat difficult, but I don’t

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think the job here is terribly difficult. I think that 
they have a couple of advantages here. The biggest advan­
tage, rather obviously, is that it is a city-county system, 
and also an advantage that the housing areas in the city 
are predominantly black and are not too densely populated, 
and they are close to white areas, and they have the flexi­
bility allowed by space outside, rather than being some­
what locked in to a city only system and not having the 
flexibility to move out. In the groupings I tried to 
illustrate, they were mostly groupings moving out from the 
inner city, and that does give an advantage very definitely. 
And I ’m sorry - the second major advantage is that the 
ratio is about 75 white to 25 black on a percentage basis, 
which enables the school district to set up and desegregate 
on the basis of minority white - minority black, majority 
white. And this, we think, is a comparatively sound 
educational thing to do. Seventy percent plus white, 25 
percent plus black.

Q Dr. Larsen, in describing your approach which you 
have developed in the few days that you have studied some 
figures and looked at some schools, and as you drove around 
the area, you have not affected some of the outlying schools 
which are either all white or predominantly white, and you 
testified that you didn't know how far your approach would 
take in desegregating two of the inner city black schools.

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I think that was 14th Street, and what was the other one?
A North.
Q North. Do you think, even in the short run, that 

it would be impossible to develop a plan which would effect 
these schools as well?

A No, I don't think it's impossible. I maintain 
that the school administration has more data than I, more 
familiarity obviously of the possibilities. They may well 
find that they can in fact desegregate North and 14th 
Street; they may find in fact that they can desegregate 
some of the outlying county-based elementary schools and 
secondary schools. I certainly would not want to give the 
impression that it could not be done in the time available 
to me, and I am presenting a generalized approach. I 
certainly must not only admit but rather insist that it»s 
very likely the Board can do a more thorough Job in this.

THE COURT: Now, at the time - as it should be -
no public records usually indicate race. To do what 
you are talking about, would it not require some—  if 
they don't have a map indicating the race of the indi­
viduals and the students living at a particular place, 
wouldn't it take a door-to-door canvass to find out? 
Maybe they have that; I don't know. They have testified 
that they keep no records on the basis of race any 
more - and we can't disagree with that policy. Wouldn't

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that bring on some problem with your system - the 
matter of finding out where our people live and what 
race there? We’ve got to find out.

THE WITNESS: I assume, Your Honor, that the
school system knows where the pupils live, where the 
locations are, and I did not hear the testimony that 
they do not know the races of the youngsters, as could 
be determined in the schools that they are presently 
attending.

THE COURT: To make the division among the schools,
the testimony would involve finding out who lives 
where, and what race lives at a particular point, as 
I would see it. Somebody said on the stand the way 
they found out what percentage black and white was to 
call the principal, and he can tell. But of course, 
if they have that information - which I don’t know - 
maybe they do have it, but would you agree that some 
census has got to be made about who lives where under 
your system?

THE WITNESS: To do a precise pinpointing, yes,
some census—  at least to the point — I think I 
mentioned something like a half-mile grid, the popula­
tion within a half-a-mile-square grid on the map, can 
give you enough information for school allocation 
purposes without having to pinpoint precisely the home

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- 867 "

of each youngster. This information may be available. 
Again this is something—

THE COURT: Maybe they have that; I don't know.
All right.

THE WITNESS: I might say, Your Honor, that in
districts where there is a great deal of mobility of 
population, moving from one section to another, the 
zone locations are obviously subject to change. I 
remember in Illinois, we had to know precisely where 
every youngster lived and what grade level he was in 
and so forth, because we had to plan - constantly plan 
and replan every year for reallocation of youngsters 
to schools, and we had to do it because of great 
mobility shifts in the suburban population, and I 
think the same kind of approach can be used for 
different purposes also.

MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Vomble?

CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Larsen, what is your age?
A Forty-seven.
Q I believe that you said that you were bora in

Iowa?
A That's right.
Q And where was it that you got your A.B.?

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A The University of Northern Iowa.
Q And then you said that you got some graduate

degree in Minnesota. What was that?
A Master's, M.A.
Q And a Ph.D. was where?
A The University of Michigan.
Q Now, you said that your first employment was in 

Wiscpnsin?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what were you teaching there, what grade 

level?
A Senior high school. I was teaching high school 

English, occasionally U. S. history and social science.
Q What was the student population of the school in 

which you were teaching there?
A Washington Park High School, approximately 1,500 

students. Racine, I am sure you know, is somewhat an 
industrial town of about 90,000 people. This is what we 
call now an inner city school. In those days, we didn't 
have those terms.

Q What was the racial makeup of the school that 
you were teaching in?

A I would hate to be penned to a precise number.
I would say less than ten percent Negro, but precisely I 
couldn't say.

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Q Do you think it could be probably less than five
percent?

A I don't know, Mr. Womble. It would be somewhere 
between five and seven, somewhere in that area. Barbara 
McNair was one of my students, incidentally, one of my few 
claims to fame.

Q How many black did you have in your classes?
A I taught required English. We didn't have the

tracking system, so my classes would reflect about the same 
percentage of Negroes in the school as a whole.

Q So about one out of twenty-two, you'd say?
A Perhaps more than that. It would be two or three 

out of twenty sometimes.
Q And sometimes no blacks?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you said you were there until 1956?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you went to somewhere in Illinois. Where 

did you go in Illinois?
A To Park Forest, Illinois, to Ridge Township school 

district in Illinois, twenty-five miles south of Chicago.
Q Is that a so-called bedroom community for Chicago?
A Yes, sir. It's a good word for it.
Q What were you doing there?
A I was chairman of the division of language arts

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and social studies, on the superintendent’s staff as assis­
tant to the superintendent in those areas.

Q Assistant to the superintendent of the school 
system?

A Yes, sir.
Q And what was the total school population of that 

school system?
A The Illinois districts are unique. There are 

high school districts and elementary school districts, as 
I'm sure you know. This was a high school district, ten to 
twelve.

Q The district you were in was Just a high school 
district?

A Yes, sir. It was fed by thirteen elementary 
school districts with whom we worked in close conjunction.

Q How many high school students were there in your 
district?

A We had in the late fifties the reputation of the 
fastest growing district in the country. I think we started 
in *56. When I went there, there were about 700 students 
in one high school. When I left there, I left there five 
years later, we had about 3,000 in three high schools, 
two and a half.

Q What was the racial composition of the high school 
students in that district?

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A In nidge Township, I don't think - the years 
1956 to 1961 - a six square mile district, I don't think 
there was one single Iiegro living. That has changed.

Q I believe you said that you went from there to 
serve as principal of a high school in Michigan?

A Yes, sir.
Q Where was that?
A St. Joseph.
Q Where is St. Joseph, Michigan located?
A It's on Lake Michigan, the eastern shore, 100 miles 

from Chicago.
Q Does it serve as an outlying community for some 

larger city?
A No. The area is the St. Joseph-Benton Harbor 

metropolitan area.
Q And what was the nature—  what was the total 

pupil enrollment in the St. Joseph public school system? I 
take it this was a public school system?

A Yes, sir. I don't remember exactly, Mr. W'omole.
We had around 1,000 to 1,200 in the high school. There were 
two junior high schools, and the obvious feeding elementary 
schools. I don't remember precisely the overall population.

Q Well, if there were 1,000 to 1,200 in the high 
school, was it a 6-5-3 system?

A Yes, sir.

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Q So that would indicate somewhere in the neighbor­
hood of 45,000 total enrollment, wouldn't it?

A In that area, yes, depending on how wealthy you 
are and what your student-teacher ratio is.

Q Was this a wealthy community?
A Comparatively. Well, comparatively. I mean 

exactly that. I think that we had about &550.00 behind each 
youngster, which was not in 1961-62 - it’s about the median 
in Michigan.

Q What was the black enrollment in that school 
system?

A I would say around four or five percent.
Q Four or five percent?
A Yes. There again, I am guessing.
Q How many black teachers did you have in the 

system while you were principal?
A We had one in the high school, and I don’t remember 

how many in the others.
Q How many teachers did you have in the system in

all?
A About sixty-five to seventy in the high school.

I suppose around—  it would be 300 to 350 in the system, 
something of that nature. Very few black teachers.

Q How many black associates or assistants on your 
staff?

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A On my s ta f f?

Q Yes.
A I didn't even have an assistant prin ipal when I 

was principal there. I wanted one, and I understand my 
successor got one. So my administrative staff, it consisted 
entirely of myself.

Q So your staff was all white then, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir. I'm Danish.
Q Now, you moved from there to Ann Arbor - strike 

that Just a moment. What was the overall black population—  

what was the total population and what was the black popu­
lation in St. Joseph, Michigan, when you were there?

A Our school district population, which was a 
little bit beyond the city limits, took in part of the 
county - was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000. And 
I can't say how many of those were Negro, Mr. Womble. There 
were very few.

Q Now, were you still operating in the public school 
systems when you moved to Ann Arbor, or was that another 
a;3ignment?

A I Joined the University of Michigan staff.
Q So your only experience then as a teacher or 

principal in a public school system has been with systems 
that were either all white or nearly all white, hasn't it?

A Yes, sir, as a direct involvement, if you said

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that.
Q As a teacher or principal or staff member?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what was it you were doing at Ann Arbor?
A I was in the School of Education as an instructor 

and as a consultant to the Bureau of School Services. I 
taught three classes, seminars, in the School of Education, 
and I supervised student teachers assigned to several schools 
public schools, in Ann Arbor and surrounding communities.
And in my spare time I studied. I wrote a dissertation and 
studied for the doctoral examinations.

Q Studied for what?
A The doctoral examinations.
Q It was while you were there, between 1964 and '66, 

that you earned your Ph.D., is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you got your Ph.D. at Michigan in what year?
A *66.
Q Up to that time then, you had not been involved

in any consultative work with respect to school integration, 
had you?

A No, sir.
Q Then you moved to Rhode Island in 1966?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe you said you lived there in East

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Greenwich, Rhode Island?
A Yes.
Q Where is East Greenwich, Rhode Island?
A It’s a beautiful little town, you must come there

sometime. It is a small 300-year old village on Narragan- 
sett Bay, about twenty miles south of Providence.

Q On Narragansett Bay?
A Yes, sir.
Q What's the population?
A It's near the Quansett Point Naval Air Station,

if you were there in the war.
Q I believe you said that you went to Rhode Island 

as an associate professor at Rhode Island College?
A Yes, sir.
Q And where is Rhode Island College?
A It is in Providence.
Q How far is your home from the college?
A About twenty minutes, Mr. Womble.
Q What is the population of Providence?
A It's approximately 200,000, I believe.
Q And what is the black population of Providence?
A It ranges from 12 to 15 percent of the population. 
Q What is the population of East Greenwich?
A I don't really know, Mr. Womble.
Q About what?

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A

And what is the black population of East Greenwich'' 
I have no idea. Very, very small. I live out in

N in e  th o u sa n d  p e rh a p s .

Q 
A

a woody area; I have very little connection with East 
Greenwich. I ’m sorry; I Just don’t have much information 
about East Greenwich.

Q You chose the place that you live yourself, didn't
you?

A Yes, sir, it's near a trout stream and it's near 
the ocean, yes, sir.

G Do you have children?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many children do you have?
A I have two.
Q What are their ages?
A My daughter is eighteen, and my son is sixteen.
Q \7here does your daughter go to school?
A The University of Rhode Island.
Q Where did she go to high school?
A Several places. She graduated from East Greenwich 

High School; she was there her last year.
Q Were there any blacks in her high school?
A Not at East Greenwich.
Q Where does your son go to school?
A He's a Junior in East Greenwich High School now.

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Q

None that I know of.
Now, you don’t have anything against the blacks,

A re  th e re  any b la c k s  in  s c h o o l w ith  him ?

A
Q

do you?
A No. We lived in Providence for a year - we 

didn't get to that, or maybe I didn't mention it. We moved 
out to East Greenwich just last year. Do you want to ask 
me about Providence, or where we lived or anything?

Q All right, tell me about it.
A If we are going through a chronology, I don't 

want to leave any gaps.
Q What's that?
A We rented a house in Providence for a year while 

we were looking for a house, and Providence is very crowded 
and very congested and very expensive, and ray son and 
daughter went to school in Providence, of course, while we 
were there.

Q You were there one year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were there blacks in school with them there?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A I don't know.
Q Very few?
A This was on the east side; comparatively few.

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-878

ren percent, eight percent, something in that area.
Q And you moved away from there after you stayed

there one year?
A
Q

Yes, sir.
As I understand it, Rhode Island College

that a public college?
A Yes, sir. There are three state institutions in 

Rhode Island of higher education - the University of Rhode 
Island, which is in Kingston down in the south part of the 
state, which is the land grant institution - agriculture, 
engineering, liberal arts. Rhode Island College is education 
and liberal arts, the only one in the state, and then there
is the Rhode Island Junior College.

q  The Rhode Island College then is a teachers'

college?
A Basically, about seventy-five to eighty-five 

percent of its graduates go into teaching each year, and 
we offer a master's degree in many fields also.

Q what is the enrollment of the Rhode Island College;

What is the total enrollment?
A I would say about twenty-eight hundred in the 

undergraduate school, and about twenty-five hundred in the 
graduate school. Rhode Island is not the biggest state in

the union.
Q And how many blacks attend Rhode Island College?

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A N o t as many as we w o u ld  l i k e .  R ou gh ly  e q u iv a le n t

to the blacKs in the state. I think almost all of our 
students at the undergraduate level are from Rhode Island 
obviously, and the population would be in the college—  we 
are recruiting blacks. Presently the percentages would be 
around five or six percent black.

Q Go that would be maybe two to three hundred blacks 
out of 5,300?

A I was talking about in relation to the under-grad 
school, Mr. Womble. I think I said that. At the graduate 
school, I couldn’t say. Graduate students, many of them 
are part-time, and it's difficult.

Q So you would say then there may be 150 blacks?
A Probably.
Q What is the size of the faculty there?
A I don’t know; I really don’t. You’re going to ask 

of course, how many blacks on the faculty, and I think that 
we have about fifteen. The faculty - the college professors 
are hard-put to remember how many men are in their own 
department, let alone the whole university as a whole.
Three hundred, something like that, four hundred.

Q Three hundred to four hundred?
A Yes.
Q Total faculty?
A Yes. Perhaps more than that.

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Q Three hundred to four hundred or more?
A Yes.
Q Do you think it would be nearer to five hundred?
A Well, you ask yourself in college, what is a

faculty member? We have a full time equivalency, I think, 
of 380 or so. We have a lot of professors who teach part- 
time, that sort of thing.

Q Now, Dr. Larsen, you have been working as a con­
sultant in connection with integration of the schools for 
how long?

A About three years, Mr. Womble.
q Did you get into this through your work for the 

Department of Justice, or how was it?
A You mean how I started?
Q Yes.
A This area of my work?
Q Yes.
A I don't remember. I don't know if I could point 

to a specific origin, Mr. Womble. I had - as I think I 
testified, 1 had been engaged in work at the University of 
Michigan in school reorganization studies and that sort of 
thing, and because of this, my background, I guess I got 
into the work through a colleague at the college who was 
engaged, and X worked for him, and this is how it happened.

Q How many years have you been working as a consultan

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to the Legal Defense and Educational Fund of the NAACP?
A I was trying to remember it the other night. 

Someone asked me that question* and I think it is two and 
a half years. This is obviously intermittent, you know.

Q During the past three years, how much of your 
time has been spent on your consultative work?

A I can tell you last year when I reviewed the year, 
I had spent eighteen days outside of the state on consultant 
work with school districts, eighteen to twenty days, plus 
some days that I spent in my office at home working on data, 
which would probably be another four to five.

Q And the year before that?
A It would be about the same; it’s about the same, 

and this year will be about the same. This is deliberate 
on my part.

Q What was your income last year from this work?
A I don't know. I don't know. 1 could have been 

prepared to answer that question by bringing along my income 
tax statement or something, but I don't know.

Q Approximately - it doesn't have to be down to the
penny or dollar.

A Eighteen hundred to two thousand.
Q Was all of that for the Legal Defense and Educa­

tional Fund?
A You’re speaking of last year?

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-882

Q Y e s .

A M o s t  o f  i t  w a s ,  y e s .  I  h a d  a d d i t i o n a l  in c o m e  f r o m

o t h e r  c o n s u l t i n g  s o u r c e s .

Q W hat I  m e a n t  w a s  y o u r  t o t a l  in c o m e  l a s t  y e a r  fr o m  

y o u r  c o n s u l t a t i v e  w o r k  o n  i n t e g r a t i o n  m a t t e r s .

A I  s e e .  Y e s ,  s i r ,  t h a t ' s  w h a t  I  t r i e d  t o  r e s p o n d

t o .

q  And t h a t  w o u ld  b e  a b o u t  tw o  t h o u s a n d  d o l l a r s  l a s t

y e a r ?

A M ore o r  l e s s ,  y e s ,  s i r .

Q W hat i s  t h a t ?

A M ore o r  l e s s .

Q Y ou t h i n k  i t  m ig h t  b e  m o re ?

A T h a t ' s  a  c l i c h e ,  I  g u e s s .  N o , I  d o n ' t  t h i n k  i t  

c o u l d  b e  m o r e .

Q How many days o u t s i d e  the s t a t e  in 1967?
A A b o u t  h a l f  o f  t h a t ,  I  w o u ld  t h i n k .

Q A b o u t  n i n e  d a y s ?

A Y e s ,  I  w o u ld  s a y  s o .

q S o  t h a t  d u r i n g  t h e  l a s t  t h r e e  y e a r s ,  y o u  w o u ld  

s a y  t h a t  y o u  h a v e  b e e n  o u t  o f  t h e  s t a t e  o n  t h i s  t y p e  w o r k  

f o r  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  f o r t y - f i v e  d a y s  t o t a l ?

A Y / e l l ,  I  h a t e  t o  b e  p i n n e d  p r e c i s e l y  t o  t h a t ,  b u t  

t h a t  i s  i n  t h e  r a n g e  o f  a c c u r a c y ,  I  t h i n k ,  y e s .  I  w o u ld  s a y  

i n  t h e  l a s t  t h r e e  y e a r s .

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Q And during tills time, you have studied and given 
advice and made recommendations with respect to the Pitt 
County system in North Carolina?

A Yes, sir.
Q The Johnston County system in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Beaufort County system in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Chowan County system, Edenton, Chowan County

of North Carolina?
A Yes.

i

Q The Washington City system of North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Durham County system of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q The Charlotte-Mecklenberg system of North Carolina? 
A Yes.
Q And the Concord system of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q The Norfolk system in Virginia?
A Yes.
Q The Portsmouth system in Virginia?
A Yes.
Q And the Alabama State Training School?
A Yes.

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Q So you spent approximately forty-five days to 
study and give your professional advice on eleven different 
systems in that period of time?

A I have never figured it out precisely that way, 
but that’s the way it comes out, yes.

Q In other words, there hasn’t been much time at 
any place, has there?

A You asked me about time out of state on the 
systems; you didn’t ask me about time spent at home or in 
my office working on it.

Q You said about three days on that?
A Usually for each case.
Q I asked you about per year.
A I must have misunderstood you, Mr. Womble. Do 

you want to ask your question again?
Q All right. How much tine did you spend in your 

office working on these matters last year?
A I would say it would run one to two days for every

day spent out of state. So it would be about twenty to 
thirty days at home working on these kinds of data.

Q Twenty to thirty days?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would that apply for the previous year also?
A I would think so. The ratio usually is one to two 

days at home for each day spent out. This doesn’t always

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figure exactly that, but overall it would be about that.
Q So then you spent forty to fifty days and were

paid only two thousand dollars?
A I often did not charge for the time I spent at

home.
Q Now, you have also served during this period of

time as a consultant to the Rhode Island office that is in
charge of the Title I ESEA program in that state?

A Yes, sir.
Q Is that a good program?
A I think it could be better. We’re working at it.

We have huge problems.
Q Is it a good program?
A My familiarity with it was as a consultant on the

programs for the disadvantaged in the boys’ and girls’
training schools in the Children's Center in the state.

Q So your relation to that program did not go into
the public school system?

A No, except by extension, because that’s where the
youngsters came from. They wound up in the correctional
institutions.

Q Is it a worthwhile program?
A Yes, sir. It approaches it; it needs much improve-

ment.
Q It needs to be improved and extended?

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A And better thought through.
Q And of course you are talking about the manner in 

which it is operated in Rhode Island?
A Yes.
Q What about the innovative program under Title III 

under ESEA? What has your connection been with that?
A This last fall the school systems were asked if 

they wished, present programs in the areas of innovation 
for funding under Title III of ESEA, and I was one of a 
panel of four educators who evaluated the programs and made 
recommendations to the State Department of Education for 
furtherance of their wishes. And of course we evaluated 
those which we thought were worthwhile and those which we 
thought needed more work.

Q And you were making your recommendations to the 
State Board of Education?

A Yes, through the State Department of Education.
Q You were not directly involved with the operation 

of the programs in the school system?
A Not in the school systems, no, sir.
Q When were you first in Winston-Salem with connec­

tion with this particular assignment?
A Two weeks ago yesterday.
Q That would be Wednesday, January 7th?
A I don't remember the dote. I left my calendar in

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my other coat, I'm sorry. I was here for two days that 
week.

Q Two full days?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did you see and what did you do while you 

were here?
A You mean two weeks ago?
Q Yes.
A I met with Mr. Stein and Mr. Chambers - he was 

here part of the time. I met the Rev. Mr. McMillan, Dr. 
Jackson, and most of the time I studied the data and spent 
some time looking at schools.

Q How much time did you spend looking at schools?
A About a day, Mr. Womble, altogether, two weeks

ago.
Q Who took you around to trie schools?
A Dr. Jackson took me to a few, and the Rev. Mr. 

McMillan took me to several.
Q Which ones did you see?
A I saw the Carver School, Carver Crest, 14th Street 

School—
Q Wait Just a minute. All right.
A Atkins, Skyland, Kennedy Junior High, Brown 

Elementary, North Elementary, Kimberly Park, Paisley Junior 
High—

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Q Wait Just a minute. Kennedy, Brown, North Elemen­

tary and Kimberly Park?
A Yes. I ’m sorry; these are in illogical order. 

They're in the order which I saw them and made a few notes.
Q What's that?
A Kimberly Park, Paisley, Lowrance, Hanes, Brunson, 

Whitaker and Reynolds. Those are the schools I saw two 
weeks ago.

Q How many did you go in?
A None.
Q In other words, you Just rolled by?
A Drove by; stopped; looked around, yes, sir.
Q Did you talk with anyone else while you were here

on that occasion?
A Two weeks ago?
Q Yes.
A Not except in the area of occasional pleasantries, 

no, I didn’t, or confer with anybody except those I have 
mentioned.

Q When were you next in Winston-Salem?
A Wednesday of this week.
u What time did you arrive?
A 1:48 p.m.
Q Your plane was on time then?
A Yes, sir. That's right. That’s the only plane,

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isn't it, the one from Newark, yes, sir.
Q Now, who have you seen and what have you done 

since your arrival here with respect to this matter?
A I have looked at more schools; I have continued 

conferring with the attorneys in the case. I guess that's 
about it, Mr. Womble.

Q You haven't talked to anyone else except the 
attorneys this time?

A I talked with Mr. Friend on the school adminis­
trative staff briefly on the phone - I think it was yester­
day morning, and I think that's it. I talked with Mi'. John 
Shields in Winston last night briefly. My purpose was to 
find out when my friend Dr. Brazille was coming to town 
and where he was going to be staying so I could say hello 
to him.

Q Those are the only ones you talked to?
A Yes. I'm trying to think, but I've been quite 

busy. It doesn't sound like it. When you're running around 
in a car and talking to a couple people, but I've really 
been quite busy.

Q What other schools have you seen this trip?
A Yesterday I spent several hours doing the same 

sort of thing I did two weeks ago. I saw Mineral Springs 
Junior Hign - and I'm missing a note here, excuse me just 
a second. Yes, I saw Mineral Springs Junior High, North

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ForsythSenior High School, Northwest Junior High School, 
Prince Ibraham, Ardmore Elementary School, Moore Elementary 
School, Dalton Junior High School, Bolton Elementary School, 
Parkland High, Griffith Junior High and Elementary, Clemmons, 
South Park, Mebane Elementary, Anderson Junior-Senior High—

Q Wait just a moment.
A I'm sorry.
Q Mebane and then what?
A Anderson Junior-Senior High, Diggs - I think I 

said South Park. I believe that’s it, Mr. Womble.
Q Now, who took you around yesterday?
A Yesterday there was a gentleman named Mr. Smith,

Mr. Charles Smith.
Q Was he the only one accompanying you?
A While we looked at the schools, yes, sir.
Q Were you accompanied by somebody else during the 

rest of the day in connection with this?
A No. I worked yesterday in my motel room on the 

maps and the data, and looked at the schools in the afternoor 
with Mr. Smith.

Q And you mentioned Mineral Springs Junior High.
How about Mineral Springs Elementary?

A Yes, sir. Didn’t I mention that? I’m sorry.
Q Did you go in any of these schools?
A No, sir.

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Q Did you go by the school administrative office?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ask for or talk to anyone else on the 

school administrative staff other than Mr. Friend?
A I talked only with Mr. Friend on the school 

administrative staff. He was very friendly and he suggested 
that we try to get together and chat more. He suggested 
that he would ask - I think - Mr. Blevins to join us, and I 
told him I would be around, then I would call him back in 
the afternoon. I did so, and he got tied up ana we were 
not able to get together. I fully understand that the 
school administrative staff has been fantastically busy 
though for the last two days with the faculty desegregation.

Q But they did indicate a willingness to see you?
A Oh, yes. I have never had any difficulty whatever 

relating to my own fellow professionals in the field. I 
have no anticipation of being turned down.

Q What did you understand your assignment to be?
Mil. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I believe we're getting

into a new area.
THE COURT: I just hated to interrupt you. I know

there's a certain continuity. When you get to a point—
MR. WOMBLE: This would be a good time.
THE COURT: While it's on my mind, Dr. Larsen,

it has been suggested that the Court should visit some

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1 of these schools. I understand that you went to the 
schools, some of them. What in particular were you 
trying to evaluate? I want to see so I'll know if it 
will be helpful to me or not.

THE WITNESS: What I was trying to see, Your
Honor, was the general conditions of the plants, the 
general area in which the school plants reside in 
relationship to the neighborhoods, what I could observe 
of the kind of maintenance the school plants are 
receiving, outside maintenance, their relationship to 
each other - so that when I look at a map, I could 
form a mental picture of where the school sits and 
what it looks like. I wasn't asked, but I might 
comment that I found that with perhaps one exception 
or two exceptions, the plants seem to be in good order, 
maintenance, sound, and care has been taken in this 
school district. Some adequate facilities and some 
fine facilities. I was not there looking at curriculum; 
I was not there observing instruction. Of course, I 
would have visited the classes, but that was not my 
purpose.
q (By Hr. Womble) But even where you have such a 

short time to analyze a school district, you do find it 
important, do you not, to at least go by and see as many 
of the schools as you can?

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A Yes, I think so. It has limited value. I read 
the school survey report made by the North Carolina Depart­
ment of Education in 1964. I read the report written by 
Mr. Ward and submitted to the Board, I believe, in '66, on 
survey and planning, and I read the Peabody report done 
last spring. And I had from those three sources a fairly 
good picture of the capacity for the buildings, the years 
of their construction, the conditions, the site acreages, 
and this type of thing. So I wasn’t Just looking at schools 
completely blindly, Mr. Womble. That data was available to 
me, and I had studied it.

Q How much time did it take yesterday to get around 
to see the schools that you have listed?

A We left right after lunch before the court re­
convened, and we continued until it was too dark to see - 
5:30, 6:30, something like that.

Q How much time did you spend visiting the schools 
that you listed as having gone by or seen when you were here 
previously?

A Very much the same amount of time, Mr. Womble.
It was from after lunch until about dark.

Q So you did feel that it was important to spend 
what would amount to a full day's time out of the short time 
that you’ve had with reference to this system to go by and 
see these schools, didn't you?

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-894-

A I think it's important. I am not always—  I have
talked to colleagues who have done this - I mean who have 
studied the school systems, and it is important; it is of 
limited importance. If I have only a short amount of time, 
studying the data, studying the recommendations made by the 
Board and studying the maps is perhaps—  the relevancy is 
more important, but I try to do as much of both as I can.

Q You wouldn’t call what you’ve had with the 
Winston-Salem system a large amount of time, would you?

A No, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: I think that' s at a good point, Your

Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Come down, D r . Larsen.

I don't know about tlxis getting into a place to eat.
We will Just recess until 2:00 o ’clock, with the 
understanding that if we cannot all make it back just 
at that time, that there will be some short lee-way 
then. You might have some trouble.

Let’s take a recess until 2:00 o ’clock.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case 
was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock p.m.)

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-895-

AFTERMOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, Dr. Larsen, would you come

back to the stand, please?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, what assignment were 

you given in connection with the Winston-Salem/Forsyth 
County school system by Mr. Stein or Mr. Chambers, whoever 
gave you your assignment? Who gave you your assignment?

A Mr. Chambers and Mr. Stein together.
G What was that assignment?
A To study the data in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth 

County school system, its present state of organization, 
administrative organization, with particular reference to 
assignment by schools and the racial pattern, to reach 
whatever relevant conclusions I could, and to in a general 
way point to an approach that the school district could be 
reconstituted to increase the level of desegregation.

Q Was quality of education involved in your assign­
ment at all?

A It always is from my point of view, yes, sir, 
definitely.

Q Your background is in education, isn't it?
A Yes, sir. Education administration.
Q The matter of assignment of pupils to create a 

specific racial mix is just a matter of numbers, isn't it?
A I believe that we have enough—

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Q Just answer my question, please, sir.
A Would you repeat it then, please, I;ir. Womble?
Q I say the matter of assignment of pupils to

achieve a particular racial mix was Just a matter of numbers 
isn't it?

A Putting numbers together.
Q And has nothing to do with education?
A Yes, it does.
Q The assignment of pupils simply to achieve a 

particular racial mix?
A I believe it does have something to do with 

education.
Q Did you understand that a part of your assignment 

was to improve the quality of education in the Winston-Salem, 
Forsyth County system?

A Yes.
Q By achieving a given racial mix?
A By achieving desegregation.
Q To you desegregation means a particular- racial 

mix, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q So your assignment, as you conceive it, to improve 

education in Winston-Salem/Forsyth County, or to make 
recommendations for the improvement of education in Forsyth 
County, was related solely to the matter of racial mix?

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-897

A In those terms, yes.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, in connection with your study of 

the local system, you testified that you made visits to see 
the schools that you visited. You went by those schools; 
you didn’t go in. And that you studied certain other data, 
or certain data, that was made available to you. What did 
you study?

A The basic data was that contained in the extensive 
answers to interrogatories served on defendants January 10th, 
1969, which consisted of some sixteen exhibits. Do you want 
me to read what each of the exhibits was, Mr. Womble?

Q No, that’s not necessary. Is that all you studied? i
A You mean that's all I studied in data form?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes, basically the exhibits in the case that we 

had. If I had needed more data, I would have requested it 
from the school system administration.

Q You did not study the answers to the second set 
of interrogatories?

A You will pardon my ignorance to legal terms. I 
don’t know what the second set of interrogatories were.

Q What was the date of those you referred to?
A I believe these were January 10th, '69. And I 

don't recall legal documents by title, Mr. Womble. I studied 
all the projected enrollments for the ’69-70 school year for

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each building in the system. I studied the various surveys, 
as I mentioned before, that had been made of the system up 
to and including the Peabody study of last spring, and 
yesterday afternoon, as I mentioned - as Mr. Stein mentioned 
I was given the new enrollment figures as of December of 
this school year.

Q Did your study include a study of the Title I 
programs that are in effect in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth 
County School System?

A Mot specifically. I did review what I saw about 
them. I did not reach any conclusions; I did not evaluate 
them, if this is what you mean.

Q Do you know what schools those programs are being 
given in?

A The target schools? No, I could not give you the 
list of the target schools, no, sir.

Q Are you familiar with the "Project Read"?
A It's a Title I project for helping disadvantaged 

youngsters, I assume.
Q Do you know that that is a program that is an 

individualized reading program for children in the first 
six grades?

A I've seen it elsewhere, and that's what it is, 
yes, very often the primary years.

Q Are you familiar with a text known as "Open High-

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ways"?
A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with any Title I program that is 

a specialized program to teach reading to first grade 
students?

A In Winston-Salem, do you mean, Mr. Womble?
Q Yes, are you familiar with that program at all?
A No.
Q Are you familiar with the special art education 

program in the Winston-Salem school system under Title I?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know that in the target areas and in these

schools where the Title I program is available that it
includes special pupil personnel services, such as home 
visits, counseling and psychological evaluations, health 
and welfare services?

A No, I am not familiar with it.
Q Are you familiar with the special compensatory 

education program, or fortification program, at the junior 
high school level?

A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the special assistant

principal for instruction that has been added to the staff 
at Atkins High School under the Title I program?

A No, sir.

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Q Are you familiar with the comprehensive school 
improvement project by teacher aids, consultant services, 
and special materials and equipment?

A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the tutorial program?
A Mo, sir. In each question you are referring to

the Winston-Salem Schools, is this true?
Q Yes. Did you know that the Title I programs in 

the local school system include the following as project 
schools: Fairview, Kimberly Park, Brown, Carver Crest,
North, Skyland, 14th Street, Diggs, Lowrance, Mebane, Easton 
and the Children’s Home?

A The first part of your question, Mr. Womble? I 
was listening to the schools. Do I know that these are 
target schools?

Q That they are schools in which Title I projects 
are being conducted?

A Not specifically, I did not know that.
Q And did you know that the secondary project, or 

the project schools at the secondary level, include Hanes 
Junior High, Paisley Junior High, Anderson Junior-Senior, 
Kennedy Junior, end Atkins Senior High?

A I did not know that specifically. I realize, of 
course, that target schools are schools that are in poverty 
areas; if you asked me which ones they were, that—

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THE COURT: Let me ask you this, while it’s on my
mind. Mow, you testified that in certain areas - like 
Latin - if you have this racial mix that you recommend, 
that those programs could be furthered. What do you 
say about Title I programs? Would a racial mix further 
the instruction in a Title I program, or would it 
hinder it, or what do you say?

THE WITNESS: I don't see that it would hinder
it, Your Honor. I think we could still have the schools; 
that Mr. Womble has mentioned there, in target residen­
tial areas, and they would still have needy disadvan­
taged youngsters in them, and many of these programs 
could continue. I have some concerns about compensa­
tory education, as such. We are presently studying 
the effects of Title I progr<uns in a research manner, 
and the results are not in yet. So I cannot testify 
as to what results show on such worthy projects as Mr. 
Womble cites, as to whether -;hey are really doing the 
job we want them to do or not. There are some indica­
tions that these kin s of compensatory programs in all 
black schools located in poverty areas are not doing 
the job - are not having the effects we hoped they 
would have. I wish I could say they were, but the 
research is not too encouraging in this regard. I 
think that by putting youngsters, black and white,

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together so that the white youngsters are always in the 
majority, which is quite possible here, that the 
general level will rise.

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: We'll get to that part a little bit

later.
Q (By Mr. Womble) On the matter that the Judge 

first asked you about, do you know what the basis for 
qualification is for Title I programs as far as a child is 
concerned?

A He must be in a poverty area and this type of 
thing. I could not spell it out specifically.

Q He must reside in a poverty area?
A Yes. I find this number of schools a little dis­

tressing. I know it's a concern of the school system that 
you have this many schools qualifying for Title I, a lot of 
kids.

Q Dr. Larsen, do you know what tye annual cost per 
child is in the local public school system?

A Not specifically. I have heard - I believe in a 
piece of testimony - I believe it's in the neighborhood of 
five hundred; I don't recall the precise amount.

Q Do you know what the cost per child is for the 
compensatory education program, Title I?

A It would be higher, of course.

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Q I ’m talking about Just that part.

A No, I did not.
Q So you didn’t know that that exceeds $300.00 per 

child per year?
A That would be about standard, I would think.
Q So that the amount of money that is being devoted 

to other places as well as here for these compensatory 
educational programs is more than half again the total 
amount that is being spent for children for public education 
generally?

A -‘•his is typical, yes, sir.
Q Money is not everything,, but that kind of money 

properly used can be of real benefit in the education of a 
child, can it not, Dr. Larsen?

A We do not know, Mr. Womble. I wish we did. We 
do not know. There are some indications that if you put a 
lot more money into an all black school in a poverty area, 
whether or not this will raise the level of the youngsters 
in that school, we Just do not know. And there are indica­
tions that it may not.

Q Does it help the white child?
A Pardon?
Q Does it help the white child?
A We don't know that either.
Q The first $500.00 that is spent, is that worth-

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while?

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A Any money that is spent is worthwhile, Mr. Womble. 
What I was saying—

Q You’re not saying that the .£300.00 does not add 
to the educational program for the children who receive it, 
do you?

A Y/e do not know. This needs to be researched.
Q So you certainly—  you would think that it would 

add to it, wouldn't you?
A Ordinarily, yes. This is one of the surprises 

we are having to research.
q i thought you said you didn't know what the

answer was.
A That's Just exactly it, Mr. Womble. We don’t 

know if it does or not.
Q How can it be a surprise to you if you don't know? 
A We had assumed it would. The surprise is that we 

have no research evidence that it in fact is.
Q And you have no evidence that it in fact is not?
A That is true.

THE COURT: What you mean is you don't know
whether it's worth $300.00 or not; you know it's worth 
something, don't you?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, we certainly hope so.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, if in a system such as the

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Winston-Salem/Forsyth County system, where the total amount 
of money appropriated for compensatory education programs 
is in the neighborhood of nine hundred thousand dollars a 
year, and it is utilized to provide these programs in the 
schools that I named a few moments ago, the children who 
are receiving the benefits of that program in those schools 
would either have to stay in those schools to receive the 
benefits, or the money would have to be spread around to 
other schools to follow the children and to provide teachers 
in a wider number of schools in order for them to receive 
benefits, wouldn't it?

A Yes, sir, that is your choice.
Q And if you can give a compensatory reading course 

to twenty children in - we will say - Diggs School with one 
teacher and maybe a teacher's aid, and you then send six of 
those children to some other school where that program is 
not being given now, and keep seven and send seven to some 
other school where that program is not being given now, you 
either lose the opportunity for those children who are moved 
out to receive that program, or you have to - with the same 
money - attempt to employ three teachers for what you have 
been employing one, don't you?

A Put in those terms, yes.
Q That's about what it works out to, if you were 

going to do it practically, isn't it?

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A Yes. In those terms, yes, sir.
Q And what it means Is that you can’t do as much 

with the same money as you can if you have your children 
concentrated in schools located in the poverty areas where 
those children live. Isn’t that right?

A This is true. We are assuming - we must assume - 
that the school to which a child goes has a program that 
meets his needs.

Q Why are you assuming that?
A Because you construct the program to meet the 

child's needs. Perhaps you could take a child out of the 
poverty area, or desegregate his school in the poverty area, 
his needs are being met by other means along with compensa­
tory education.

Q But you can't carry that compensatory education 
throughout the system. If it's not effectively concentrated 
in a few schools, it is going to be much less effective 
spread through the system, isn't it?

A Not necessarily, Mr. Womble. I know of no educa­
tor who recommends keeping black schools black, keeping 
them in a poverty school area.

Q I'm not talking about black schools; I'm talking 
about children who need compensatory education.

A The schools that you read to me with one or two 
exceptions were all black schools.

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Q That is because those are the children that need 
compensatory education, isn't it?

A That's precisely it, and that's what we're talking 
about.

Q Now, from the standpoint of an educator and not 
from the standpoint of an assignment to perform a mathema­
tical racial mix, is it educationally sound, Dr. Larsen, to 
take children out of these schools that I have mentioned 
between now and June of this year, from these schools where 
they are getting this program, and to send them into other 
schools in this system for the balance of this school year - 
as an educator?

A As an educator, Mr. Womble, I think it is com­
pletely sound to do so, yes, sir.

Q And that's your professional opinion?
A Yes, sir.
Q During the past several years, you have moved

several times, haven't you, Dr. Larsen?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever move your child in the middle of a 

semester from one school to another?
A Twice, I think, Mr. Womble.
Q What month of the year?
A One time we moved in November, and another time 

we moved in April.

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Q And. y o u  m o v ed  y o u r  f a m i l y  a s  w e l l  a s  y o u r s e l f  a t  

t h a t  t i m e  o f  y e a r ?

A Y e s ,  s i r .  W hen t h e y  w e r e  i n  e l e m e n t a r y  s c h o o l .

Q Y ou  d i d  n o t  l e a v e  th e m  t o  f i n i s h  t h e  s e m e s t e r ?

A N o , s i r .

Q D id  y o u  h a v e  a n y  a l t e r n a t i v e  a b o u t  i t ?  C o u ld  y o u

h a v e  l e f t  th e m  t o  f i n i s h  t h e  s e m e s t e r ?

A I  f e l t  t h a t  i t  w a s  b e s t  f o r  t h e  f a m i l y  t o  s t a y

t o g e t h e r ,  a n d  s o  w e l e f t  t o g e t h e r .

q  S o  y o u  p u l l e d  th e m  o u t  o f  s c h o o l  i n  t h e  m id d le  o f

a  s e m e s t e r ?

A Y e s ,  s i r .

q  A r e  y o u  f a m i l i a r  w i t h  t h e  M o d e l C i t i e s  P r o g r a m ?

A N o , s i r ,  t h a t  i s  n o t  my f i e l d  o f  c o m p e t e n c e ,  a n d  

I  am n o t  f a m i l i a r  w i t h  t h e  p r o g r a n ,  t h e  M o d e l C i t i e s  P r o g r a m , 

i n  W in s t o n - S a l e m .

Q Y ou  d o n ’ t  k n ow  t h a t  i n  W in s t o n - S a l e m ,  t h e r e  i s  a  

p l a n  i n  t h e  a r e a  t h a t  h a s  b e e n  d e s i g n a t e d  a s  t h e  M o d e l C i t i e r  

a r e a ,  w h ic h  l i e s  e a s t  a n d  w e s t  o f  P a t t e r s o n  A v e n u e  -  d o  y o u  

k n ow  w h e r e  P a t t e r s o n  A v e n u e  i s ?

A N o , s i r .

Q Y ou  d o n ' t  k n ow  t h a t  t h e r e  i s  a  p r o g r a m  i n  t h a t  

p a r t  o f  t h e  C i t y  o f  W in s t o n - S a le m  t o  e x p e n d  v e r y  s u b s t a n t i a l  

su m s o f  m o n ey  t o  p r o v i d e  a m o d e l  o f  a n  e d u c a t i o n a l  p r o g r a m  

f o r  t h e  p e o p l e  i n  t h a t  p a r t i c u l a r  p a r t  o f  to w n ?

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A I know no tiling about that model.
Q And regardless of what that program might be, 

it would be your Judgment, would it, that if that area is 
an area in which blacks live exclusively or almost exclusive­
ly, the children of that area should be required to go 
elsewhere to school to achieve a racial mix?

A I would suggest and recommend that the children 
living there attend desegregated schools, whether the school 
is located there or elsewhere.

0 Regardless of where the children or where the 
parents wanted them to go?

A I don't think that is necessarily contradictory,
Mr. Womble.

Q What I'm asking is, if you had responsibility for 
determining where a child would go to school, or had 
responsibility for determining what the law should be, you 
would require a child to go to a school to achieve a racial 
mix for the benefit of the educational program of that 
child, regardless of what the parents of the child or the 
child might desire. Is that correct?

A Basically it is. It doesn't reflect my view, but 
I would also say - and I did on direct testimony, I believe - 
I would assign the child to the school nearest his home as 
possible, as long as that school can be desegregated.

Q Now, Dr. Larsen, you were discussing programs in

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certain high schools, and as I recall, you stated at the 
outset of your testimony that you recognized that course 
offerings would be available in a school in this system if 
there were a demonstrated desire among the students, a 
request for a particular course and interest for a particu­
lar course?

A If there were enough of them to warrant offering 
the course, yes, sir.

Q And you said that you were satisfied that - I 
believe the term that you used was - that you had great 
confidence that these offerings would be made available at 
all schools if they were desegregated. That's what you 
said, wasn't it?

A I believe I said I had great confidence that the 
offerings could. be taken - would te made available in all 
schools if they were desegregated, from the point of view 
that then there would be enough takers in each school to 
warrant giving the course. The difference is the number of 
takers.

G And so you are saying that if blacks were in ail 
of the schools, there would be enough takers so that these 
programs, in your opinion, would be available in all these 
schools?

A Is that a question, Mr. Y/omble?
Q Is that what you are saying?

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A Basically, yes. They would have an opportunity
then.

Q I presume you were looking at Exhibit 7, were you?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you gave the testimony about the course 

offerings in the high schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dramatics I is offered at Anderson, which is a 

black or predominantly black school, isn't it?
A Did I mention Dramatics I?
Q You didn't, but I did.
A I don’t have the exhibit in front of me; I just 

have some notes from it.
Q Do you have the exhibit there?
A No, sir.
Q Well, will you take my word for it then that 

Dramatics I is offered at Anderson, Parkland and Reynolds?
A Yes, sir, I ’ll take your word for that.
Q It is not offered at Atkins, Carver, East Forsyth, 

Mount Tabor, North Forsyth, or West?
A I'll take your word for it; I don't have the 

exhibit.
Q Now, what would make you think that by integrating 

all those high schools, Dramatics I would be offered at all 
of those schools?

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A What would make me think that?
Q Yes.
A I believe that if there are enough takers that 

the school system would offer Dramatics I.
Q Isn't it obvious from this that there are not 

enough takers?
A Yes.
Q Isn’t it obvious to you that if you send blacks 

into schools where they are not now, that that is not going 
to necessarily create a situation where there will be 
enough takers? If there are not enough takers at North 
Forsyth now, why would sending more blacks in there result 
in a demand for Dramatics I?

A I can’t testify on Dramatics I. I don't know 
what the reason is. Maybe they don’t have a teacher for it.

Q Let's take any of the others then. What was the 
first one on your list?

A I believe I mentioned Journalism II, Speech I and 
II.

Q I say what’s the first one? Let’s take Journalism
A Journalism II, yes.
Q Journalism II is now offered at Parkland—

MR. VOMBLE: I ’m sorry, Your Honor; this is
Exhibit 7 that we are referring to. It’s Exhibit 7
attached to an answer to an interrogatory. Unless you

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have the interrogatories—
THE COURT: I was going to follow the school with

your 26.
MR. WOMBLE: I thought you were looking for this

particular one.
THE COURT: I kind of have in mind now what the 

pupil population - the majority is, and it helps me 
some when I look at this. I will get it. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Dr. Larsen, Journalism II 

is offered at Parkland, Reynolds and Y/est, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q It is not offered at North Forsyth, Mount Tabor, 

East Forsyth, Carver, Atkins or Anderson?
A That's right. It's offered at Parkland, Reynolds

and West.
Q Is there any rational basis for concluding that 

the reassignment of children from Anderson, Atkins or 
Carver to East Forsyth, Mount Tabor or North Forsyth would 
result in a demand for Journalism II?

A It might.
Q But there's no reason for concluding that it 

would, is there? It might or it might not?
A That's right. My point is it might; that's right. 
Q And the same is true of all these others, isn't

it?

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A Yes. The point, Kr. V/omble - if I may be permitted 
to make it - may I make the point again if I didn't make it 
clearly the first time, that there is a cumulative effect, 
there are many courses that are offeree in some or ail of 
the white schools but not in any of the black schools.
This is the point, how, maybe 1 did not make it too clearly 
by not giving examples.

Q The examples you gave - I don't think they said 
what you just said.

A I think they did, sir.
G Of course, if you sent all of the children in all 

of the schools in Forsyth County to one school, there would 
be a demand for all of the courses that you can think of,
I guess?

A You wDuld have an educational park, wouldn't you, 

Kr. Womb lei
Q And t iat wouia be a substantially oversized school, 

wouldn't it?
A I did not recommend that.
u Isn't it true, hr. Larsen, that your statement 

that you had great confidence that these courses would be 
offered at ail schools if desegregated, is an exaggerated 
statement of what can be expected:’

A ho, I don't think it is an exaggerated statement, 
Fir. Womble. I think thai if all schools at the high school

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level were desegregated, that there would be more black 
youngsters taking more of these courses than they are now.

Q That isn't what your testimony is, is it?
A If that is not precisely what I said - I hope it 

is - my meaning. I try to give examples of where it is not 
true now, and I hope that when the schools are desegregated, | 
I hope that there are more black youngsters taking these 

courses than there are now.
Q Now, are you familiar with the proposal that the 

local school system had to close Carver Junior and Senior 
High Schools, and to transfer those pupils to Walkertown 
Junior High and East Forsyth?

A /an I familiar with it? I did read tills, yes, sir.
1 don't remember in what soui'ce, but I did read this.

Q And of the proposal to close Anderson High School 
and to reassign those pupils to Parkland?

A I don't remember seeing that, no, sir. I 
remember seeing some reference in one of these surveys about 
the Carver situation.

Q Nov/, hr. Larsen, let's review this proposal that 
you are making this morning, and you have made tliis after 
being in tills community about - net over a total of four

days?
A Being in the community four days, that's correct.
Q And without having talked with any of the school

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a d m in i  s t r a t o r s ?

A T h a t ' s  a  q u e s t i o n ?

Q Y e s ,  s i r .

A T h e a n s w e r  i s  y e s .

Q And w i t h o u t  h a v i n g  r e v i e w e d  w i t h  th e m  t h e  t r a n s ­

p o r t a t i o n  p a t t e r n  i n  t h e  c o m m u n ity ,  o r  w i t h  a n y b o d y ,  i s

t h a t  r i g h t ?

A Y e s .

G Do y o u  know  t h e  s i z e  o f  t h i s  c o u n t y ?

A N o t  s p e c i f i c a l l y .

Q Do y o u  w a n t  t o  t a k e  t h i s  r u l e r  a n d  s e e  h ew  f a r  i t  

i s  f r o m  t h e  f a r t h e r e s t  r e a c h e s  o n  t h e  w e s t  t o  t h e  e a s t e r n

b o u n d a r y ?

A I ' d  b e  g l a d  t o .

Q H ave y o u  d o n e  i t  b e f o r e ?

A N o , s i r .

Q W e l l ,  w o u ld  y o u  d o  i t  now ?

A T w e n t y - s i x  m i l e s .

G Y ou f i g u r e  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  t w e n t y - s i x  *> t w e n t y -

s e v e n  m i l e s  a c r o s s ?

A Y e s .

G How a b o u t  fr o m  t h e  s o u t h e r n m o s t  p a r t  t o  t h e

n o r t h e r n m o s t  p a r t ?

A A b o u t  t w e n t y .  I s  t h a t  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  r i g h t ?

S o  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  how  m any s q u a r e  m i l e s  w o u ld  y o u

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say there would be in this county?
A Oh, Fir. Wombie, my arithmetic—

MR. STEIN: We object to the question, Your Honor,
at any rate, whatevei’ it was. He's asking him to 
multiply these—  I think it's entirely irrelevant.

THE COURT: I'll take judicial notice that the
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that.
Q (3y Mr. Wombie) It is approximately then some twenty 

six or seven miles across, and nineteen or twenty miles from 
north to south at the widest points?

A Yes, in a quiet measurement that 1 just made.
Q And more or less rectangular in shape, is that 

right?
A Yes, sir’.
Q .jo that would be in excess of four hundred square 

miles?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you realize the number of pupils involved in 

this system, how many pupils?
A A few more than fifty thousand.
U And how many schools?
A Sixty some. Forty-two elementary schools, nine

senior high schools, seventeen junior high schools.
Q Now, your Disxrict No. 1—

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A Yes, sir.
Q That you proposed would cover what part of the 

county?
A The present North, East and Carver and Atkins 

High School districts. It would cover the upper northeast 
part of the county.

Q As a matter of fact, it would cover the entire 
northern part of the county, wouldn’t it, from east to west?

A It wouldn't go down this far.
Q I said the entire northern part, all the way 

across to the west boundary?
A Yes, sir.
Q And on the eastern side, it would go from north 

to south, so that it would actually cover approximately 
half or more than half of the entire county, wouldn't it?

A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you had two groupings, I believe, in this 

district?
A Yes, sir.
Q Your first gx-cuping of elementary schools would

cover which schools?
A Skyland, Petree, and Sedge Garden. This right 

here (indicating on map).
Q That would cover an area from east to west of how 

many miles?

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A Five to five and a half
Q Nine miles, isn't it, Dr. Larsen?
A Two inches to the mile - yes.
Q Did you include Sedge Garden?
A Yes, I included Sedge Garden. Yes. Now, the 

Board may want to bring some of these up into Kernersville.
I did not specify the exact number in Sedge Garden for that 
reason.

Q That school may be full, may it not?
A Of course.
Q So you may not be able to bring them up?
A This is why I tried to state that the school 

administration may adjust this, and that the youngsters in 
Sedge Garden right now may not be precisely the same as the 
youngsters will be when they make the switch. They are 
quite able to adjust those things, I assume. So it may not 
go all the way to the end.

Q Right now it does, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's the zone and it's nine miles across, isn't

it?
A Yes.
Q And from north to south, assuming that the child­

ren in Petree come from midway between Walkertown and Petree 
south, that district is how long according to your proposal?

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A About seven, isn't it? I'm sorry. A little over
six.

Q About six miles?
A Yes. If we came all the way to the bottom again, 

that has to do with the population in this particular area.
Q You understand that the children who are assigned 

to Sedge Garden are any children who live in this area?
A I would assume that, yes.
Q That was your assumption in making this study, 

wasn't it?
A It would have to be.
Q Now, the distances to which you testified are 

straight-line distances, according to the ruler, aren't 
they?

A That's right.
Q And do not take into account the mileage that 

would be covered by following roads that are on the ground?
A That's quite true. And I tried to make that 

clear, that this would be subject to adjustment, and that 
you would assign the youngsters to the school nearest to 
their home, and also according to race, which does not 
necessarily have to be contradictory. Now, I don't know, 
there may be black people living out here.

Q Well, look at Exhibit 26 and see what the school 
population of Sedge Garden is.

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A There are presently 7 black children and 935 white 
children.

Q Go you would assume from tnat then that there are 
very few black children iiving in this area, would you?

A That's right.
Q Now, what is the enrollment at Petree?
A A3 black, 280 white.
Q That's at Petree?
A That is a desegregateu school under my definition, 

l believe it was.
G Incidentally, your definition is just your

definition, isn't it?
A Yes, sir. I didn't give anybody else the crecit.
G how, what is tiie enrollment at Skyland?
A 433 Negro children, all block.
Q Now, would you assume from the figures you just

read that the residential pattern indicates a concentration 
of black citizens in this area around and west of Skyland, 
with a small number of blacks living between Skyland and 
Petree?

A Yes, sir.
Q And from the map, you can tell, can you not, that 

immediately north of Skyland is a substantially undeveloped 
area?

A Yes, sir.

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Q And south of Skyland on both sides of Interstate 
do, it is a relatively undeveloped area, isn’t it?

A Yes, sir.

Q if you were going to implement your plan, I would 
appreciate it if you would show us in numbers how you would 
do it. In oxher words, can you take these numbers now and 
just on a piece of paper show us—

A I may have done that, Fir. Womble. If you will 
give me ci nii nute, I think I may have done this.

A Show us the children by race who would be at each 
of those schools.

A No, I can’t do that. I find that very difficult 
to do. i can say this, that in Group A, which is the 
Skyland, Petrec and Sedge Garden, that there would be 467 
children, 67 black and about 1,200 white. Now, I do not 
know precisely where they are living except in the general—

Q I'm not asking you where they are living; I am 
asking you how many children you wind up with whixe and how 
many children you end up with black at each school?

A You have a percentage about three td one white 
over black in the three schools now. So if you combine the 
three schools and desegregate at each one, it would come out 
approximately to that amount.

Q All r^ght. Let's follow it through now.
A You would have a majority white to minority Negro

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in each of the three schools
0 So you would have then approximately - to use r 

figures, which might make it a little simpler - let’s say 
that then you would wind up with 500 children at Skyland,
in round figures—

A Yes.
Q Of whom you would expect 125 to be black?
A In round figures, yes. That comes out about that,

doesn't it? Yes.
Q And 575 to he white. At Petree, again to use 

round figures, let's say it would be 320, divide that by 
four, that would be 80 black and 240 white, wouldn't it?

A Yes, sir.
Q And then at Sedge Garden, there would be 950; you

would have roughly 235 black and 715 white?
A Yes. We are pinpointing to make a point, of 

course, the range. There is a range there, as you recall, 
for elementary school, of—  We don't have to be that prec 
at each school. We can go from 12 percent to 32 percent, 
something like that, black at each school. We pick the 
precise part in the middle. Do you understand what I'm 
trying to tell you?

Q
children

You've go so many white children and so many black 
in this area though?

A One of the three schools could have the lowest

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range of the number of black, which of course would make 
one of the others have the highest range.

Q Dr. Larsen, looking at Skyland with 500 children 

there now—
A Yes, sir.
Q All black.
A Yes.
Q They all come from this Immediate vicinity, 

because there is very little residential area except in 
the vicinity immediately west of the school?

A Yes.
Q So practically all of them come from west of the 

school?
A Yes.
0 Mow, explain to me under your plan - applying 

your proposal of proximity to school—
A Yes.
Q And the race—
A Yes.
Q Which of the 575 black children now attending 

Skyland School you would send to Sedge Garden or Detree?
A I don't know. If you’re asking me which precise 

youngsters—
Q I don't know them either. I'm talking about 

geography. This is where they live, west of the school?

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A Yes, sir.
Q From what area - these are all black, so you want 

to get 125 black to go to Skyland?
A That's right.
0. According to your formula, where do you get them

from?
A Right here (indicating). You mean white now?
Q I'm talking about black; they're all black in 

this area.
A You want the black people that go to Skyland?
Q The 125 black that you would send to Skyland.
A Yes.

Q Would you pick them from the closest proximity 
to the school, or from the western area of the zon^ of the 
school attendance zone, further west from the school?

A I would probably start the other way, Mr. V/omble, 
and pick from my black people in Petree and Sedge Garden 
that we need there, according to the ratio you worked out.
I would pick those to travel the least distance from the 
perhaps eastern part of the Skyland District to go out 
there, and then pull in from the west for Sedge Garden. Is 
this what you're getting at? I would probably do those 
(indicating on map).

Q That's what I'm getting at. From where would you 
choose the 125 blacks that you would assign to Skyland -

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assuming that there are 500 black children from this area 
right around and immediately west of Skyland who are now 
attending that school?

A I don't know from where I would choose them.
Q It would be very difficult, wouldn't it?
A You mean if you were to identify precise streets

that would go to Skyland?

Q No. Let's get at it this way; maybe this will 
clear it up. You have 500 children in this area who are 
going to Skyland?

A Yes.

Q That's just immediately north and south of Skyland 
and west of Skyland in a very small area?

A Yes, sir.

0 Now, 375 of those children approximately - accord­
ing to your plan - will have to be moved away from their 
neighborhood and sent to Petree or Sedge Garden?

A That’s quite correct.
Q Are you going to send to Sedge Garden those who 

live closest to Skyland, or those who live west of Skyland?
A I don't know. This would be a decision of the 

administration based upon—
Q Your formula is based on race and residence, and 

you said that those who were closest to the school - as long 
as they fitted the racial pattern - would be assigned to a

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p a r t i c u la r  s c h o o l?

A Yes, sir.
Q Now, where do you get those children? How do you 

make that assignment based upon your own formula?
A I tried to say, Mr. Womble - I didn't say it very 

clearly apparently - 1 would first take the Negro youngsters 
I needed to desegregate Sedge Garden__

Q From where?
A From that area closest to Sedge Garden. To 

Petree, and from that area closest to Petree, and the rest 
of the youngsters would stay in Skyland (indicating on map), 
-the rest of the Negro youngsters.

Q And with 500 children now attending Skyland, 
immediately north and south and west of Skyland, you will 
then be taking children from west of Skyland__

A Yes.
Q By Skyland—
A I'd go right by it.
Q And send them - some to Petree, which would be

approximately—
A Two miles.
Q Two miles from where they live?
A Yes.

Q And others you would send to Sedge Garden, which 
would be over five miles from where they live?

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A That's right.
Q And now those children are going to school within 

not more than five or six blocks of where they live?
A That is quite correct; that is precisely right.
Q And in reverse, you would do the same thing with 

the white children who are now attending Petree and hedge 
Garden?

A Yes. The other alternative, Mr. Womble, would 
be to close Skyland, and I am not ready to do that imme­
diately.

Q Dr. Larsen, what would your proposal have to say 
with respect to the assignment of pupils to the junior high 
schools in District 1?

A I did not spell it out, Mr. Womble.
u Would you please spell it out?
A I spelled it out to the degree that a feeder

system should be established by the administration, feeding 
from the elementary schools into the junior and senior high 
schools in such a way that desegregation of secondary edu­
cation is accomplished. I went no farther than that state­
ment.

Q Anyone could say that, couldn't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, could you explain to us what it means? Could 

you show me?

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A No, sir, I have not worked that out. I have not 
worked that out. You have enough black youngsters and 
white youngsters in the district that the Junbr and senior 
high schools could be desegregated through a feeder system.

Q And you have 250 square miles involved, don't you?
A I don't know the precise figures, but that's

about right.
Q And you did not have it worked out as to how you 

would feed either to the Junior high schools or the high 
schools?

A No, I did not work that out.
Q For District 1 or District 2 either one?
A I did not have time to work out the complete

feeder system in the secondary schools.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, your Group B included what 

schools?
A Carver Elementary and Fairview, both black, 

grouping it with Ibraham, Mineral Springs and Oak Summit.
Q Did you also say that you would close Brown?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why?
A Well, apparently because I—  it is in the midst 

of the black community there; it would be very difficult to 
desegregate, and partly because it has been recommended to 
be closed on different occasions.

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A Yes, sir.
Q What did you think of the appearance of the 

school?
A That's a difficult question. I think it can be 

closed - it's on a very small site. Eventually some of 
these schools in the all black community will have to be 
phased out, and it looked to me as if that would be a good 
place to begin.

Q As far the environment around Drown is concerned, 
it's pretty good, isn't it?

A Not bad; not bad, relatively speaking. As a 
matter of fact, the administration might prefer to keep Browr 
open and close perhaps one of the others, the 14th Street 
perhaps.

Q What you are suggesting is to close the school 
Just because it is in a black area, isn't it?

A This is quite true. What I ' m  suggesting is—  the 
objective is to desegregate your elementary education, and 
what we could call the inner city, you have about three 
choices. You can induce grouping, which I tried to do, 
which I think is probably the least painful; you can trans­
port youngsters all over the county, and/or you can close 
down some schools and take the youngsters out of that area 
and house them elsewhere. I am operating from tne point of

Q D id  you  see th e  s c h o o l?

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view that the objective is to desegregate elementary educa­
tion. Now, whether it is Brown which is closed, or one of 
the other oluer schools in the inner city, that I think is 
a decision which the Board should make. It might be North, 
it might be Fairview, it might be 14th Street, but I cannot 
figure a way of desegregating Brown because of its location 
wxthout taking these youngsters quite far afield, or bring­
ing some in.

Q In other word , it is located in the miudle of a 
residential area that is all black or practically all black?

A That's the point, Mr. Womble. Whereas Fairview is 
hovering on the edges here somewhat, and v/here, as you 
pointed out, Skyland is located near the edge, and as you 
point out again, Brown is quite in the middle. That's the 
basic reason.

Q And if you would let these children who live in
this area attend a school near their homes, Brown would be 
well located, wouldn't it?

A If we were all one race, Brown would be decently 
located, except it needs a larger site, as I recall, Mr. 
Womble. You might have difficulty getting a larger site.

Q oo that if we were seeking to operate a school 
system strictly without regard to race, Brown would be a 
good location to serve those people in that area, wouldn't it?

A That is not quite what I said. I said that if we

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were all one race and we knew we had no objective of 
desegregating schools, then it would be a good location 
except that, again as I say, it's a small site, and you 
might want to use it for a purpose other than it is being 
used. It was recommended by the State Department and also 
by the Peabody study to be replaced or abandoned, either in 
whole or in part, as were several of the other schools in 
the downtown or inner city area.

Q Dr. Larsen, in a place like the District of
Columbia, do you know what the racial mix in there?

A It’s going up to somewhere in the vicinity of 
eighty percent, is it not?

Q How about the school children?
A Probably a little higher amount.
Q It's well up in the nineties, isn’t it?
A Yes, I think so.
G What in your opinion needs to be done with their 

education?
A Do the best job you can. You have an all Negro 

community, or what is rapidly becoming an all Negro community 
you do the best job you can.

Q Do you think that you should close their schools 
and send them to Maryland and Virginia to school?

A Too far, under the conditions and everything else. 
That's why you’re lucky here.

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Q What is the geographic area in length from north 
to south that is currently serving 14th Street, Fairview, 
Carver, Oak Summit, Mineral Springs and Prince Ibraham?

THE COURT: Mr. V.omble, it's time for our after­
noon break. You can go on ten or fifteen minutes more 
if you want.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Approximately how far is that?
A One to two, I don't remember. Nine miles plus.

Between nine and ten, nine and a half.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, 1 think that's a good

place.
THE COURT: fou may come down for a moment,

doctor. We are going to take our afternoon recess.
All right; let's have a short recess.

(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Dr. Larsen, if you will

resume the stand.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, before the recess 

we were talking about the area north of the center of 
winston-Salem, to the north end of the county. Before 
going on with that, let me ask you one further thing about 
the first group, Group A, I think you had it, which was 
Sedge Garden, Skyland and Petree?

A Yes, sir.
Have you made any study at all about the traffic

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patterns and routings as they relate to the proposals you 
are making?

A No, sir, I have not.
Q Did you appreciate, in making your recommendation, 

that if a child in the vicinity of what is known as Five 
Points, where Sprague Street, V/aughtown, and Reynolds Park 
Road converge, were assigned to Skyland, that in order - 
and that child would be living in the western part of the 
Sedge Garden District, that that child in order to get to 
Skyland would have to go vestwardly on Reynolds Park Road 
right by Mebane School, and then turn north and go across 
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go east - I guess he would have to go east on Fourth Street 
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west on Fifth Street into Skyland School, and that in doing 
that he would be going twice as far as would be required for 
him to go to Waughtown School or Forest Park School, and it 
would take him right by Mebane School?

A Your question is was I aware of the complexity of
traffic?

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A
Q

were you?
A No.

That's right.
Only in a general way, Mr. Womble.
Certainly you weren't specifically aware of that,

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U And by "general way", what you mean to say, I 
suppose, is that this is a much more complicated problem 
than simply stating it as you have today?

A I stated it in somewhat philosophical terms, I 
hope with the codicil that the Board would in achieving the 
objective of desegregated schools, simply amend the plan to 
work in a more smooth manner. I did not present as a 
complete plan, but as an approach that could be used by 
combining large high school districts into largex- districts.

Q And each suggestion carries with it its own 
complications, doesn't it?

A I am sure it does, Mr. Womble.
Q Because you do have to take into account your 

traffic arteries, your school capacities, your residential 
patterns, and other factors, don't you?

A Yes, sir.
Q And when you are suggesting that for example they 

could send some of the children from Gedge Garden bchool in 
the east up to - you were suggesting that, up to Kemers- 
ville Elementary, and you were suggesting that that in 
Kernersville is over capacity?

A I think I suggested that in response to one of 
your questions under cross examination and not in the 
approach itself.

u What it boils down to is you are mailing suggestions

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really without offering solutions, aren't you?
I am offering an approach which is subject to

revision.
Q Well, your approach doesn't go to the point of 

being a plan which might be revised, but simply an approach 
which needs revision?

A I think that's an accurate statement. I would be 
pleased to work it out in more detail, given the time to do 
it.

Q And it would take time, wouldn't it?
A Time and help.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, referring back to the grouping 

that I believe you have designated as Group B?
A Yes, sir.
G And you testified that the length of that area, 

north to south, was approximately—
A Ten miles.
Q Ten to eleven miles. Now, the distance across the 

western boundary would be approximately how many miles?
A Four.

THE COURT: Now we are talking about area two?
THE WITNESS: Group B.
Mk . 'wOMBLE: Group B ana District 1 as I understood

it.
THE WITNESS: Carver, Faxrview, Ibraham.

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P h o n e  7 6 5  0 6 3 6



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THE COURT: I have it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, would you please explain 

how you would reshuffle the assignment of the students in 
Fairview, Carver, Ibraham, Mineral Springs and Oak Summit, 
based upon the numbers of children attending those schools?

A My point, Mr. Womble, was that the two black 
schools here are Carver and Fairview—

Q And what are their enrollments?
A Carver has approximately 450; Fairview about 750. 

It may have changed in the more recent—  Fairview has 695 - 
has gone down a little. Carver Elementary 709.

MR. STEIN: Mr. Womble, I think Mr. Ward's testi­
mony was that 200 or so of those children were pre­
school children.

THE WITNESS: That's right. My figures for Carver
were 450, Mr. Womble. Now, that was from the projected 
enrollments. I wonder what figure that would be 
equivalent to in the new—  in the December enrollment. 
Has grades 1 to 6 gone up that much?
Q (By Mr. Womble) There is a kindergarten program 

at Carver?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know about that?
A Yes, in general terms. I heard Mr. Ward mention 

it when I was in court the other day.

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P h o n e  7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6



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Q D id  you u n d e rs ta n d  t h a t  t h a t  i s  in c lu d e d  i n  th e

enrollment there in the 709?
A It was not included in the previous enrollment.

It is just a statistical question. Grades 1 to 6 did not go 
up from 450 to 709, I would not t ok.

Q Is your proposal one that would affect the kinder­
garten children?

A No.
Q Well, let's take out 250 of the kindergarten 

children. Then you have got 559, is that right?
A I think it's 459.
Q 459? Now, you have 459 at Carver?
A That's the question I was getting at.
Q You have 693 at Fairview?
A Yes.
Q What are your others?
A At Ibraham, my figures were 300 - and

checking to see if that has changed materially. That's 361 

under the new figures. At Mineral Springs, I have on the 
older data 866; that has gone - that’s approximately the 
same, 881. Oak Summit in my original figures, I had 669.
I see it is now 687. I believe that comes out to 1929, 
total of Ibraham, Mineral Springs, and Oak Summit, and I am 
adding the new figures, 1152 at the two inner city schools. 
Does that agree with yours?

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1 Q How many do you have at the other two?
A I have it 459 and 693 and 1152.
Q How many do you have black and how many do you 

have white?
A Y/ell, Carver and Fairview are both all black; 

it's 1152.
Q How, Mineral Springs?
A I did not separate. Me have 48 white children 

there.
THE COURT: You come up with the figure of 1152

at Carver—
THE WITNESS: And Fairview.
THE COURT: And Fairview?
MR. WOMBLE: That's right.
THE COURT: I see.

Q (By Mr. Womble) How, if you deduct your black 
children at Mineral Springs and Oak Summit—

A Yes.
Q And add those to the ones at Fairview and Carver-
A I find 30 at Oak Summit and 30 at Prince Ibr&nam 

ana d0 ac Mineral Springs.
Q There are not any blacks at Prince Ibraiiam?
A That's right. We have four. We have 78 black

children at the three predominantly white schools. Does 
that agree with your arithmetic?

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Q How many?

0 Yes.
A That’s 1851 white children to 1230 black children.

Does that agree with your figures?
Q Now, what does that do to your1 approach?
A It puts it out of whack, and I understood that

when I did it. It does give a majority white desegregated 
setup, but it does not come within the range of desegregation. 
I did that deliberately, Mr. Womble, because to bring the 
white enrollment up farther to bring the ratio down, I would 
have had to go out and pick up white schools at a much 
greater distance, and I preferred to do this within this 
range. I would not say that the Board may not want to 
increase the white children in that grouping, which would 
mean that they would have to go up and pick up iiural Hall or 
Walkertown Elementary to add to the Griffith, and I chose 
not to do that.

iHE COURT: I haven’t kept up with your figures.
You have a problem where there is a greater population 
of Negro in that grouping than jives with the percentage 
that you recommend?

THE WITNESS: That's right; it’s still majority
white, but the minority Negro population is larger 
than I v/oulvi like to see it be.

A 73.

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THE COURT: And how much is it?
THE WITNESS: It is 1230 black to 1929 white.

Q (By Mr. Womble) 1851?
A 1051, I'm sorry.

THE COURT: , I see. All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) In other words, it's two-thirds?
A About, yes.
Q As many blacks as whites.
A That's right. It's quite imperfect.
Q If you went up to take in Rural Hall, you would

be covering another six or eight miles, wouldn't you?
A That's right. That's why I did not do that. I 

just made the decision not to, and I left it open with this 
point that you pointed out, that perhaps it should have 
been and I will certainly admit that, maybe we should bring 
it down so that it will bring the ratic of black to white 
more in line with desegregation.

Q Then if you did that, then you would be trans­
porting blacks as much as ten miles or more to school, 
wouldn't you?

A That's right. I don't think ten miles is very 
far actually, Mr. Womble. Ten miles perhaps from here to 
here is no farther than the five miles or so that you 
pointed out from the lower end of the Sedge Garden district 
to Skyland, because what we are talking about in transporta-

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tion is always time, and not necessarily mileage.
Q It is time and money and it could be frustration, 

couldn't it, Dr. Larsen? And it is a long distance to go 
to school when you've got one within walking distance, 
isn’t it?

A This is one of the facts of life.
Q That depends on who's operating the system, 

doesn't it?
A I don't know what's the answer to that question.
Q Now, according to your definition, the schools in 

Group B would not be desegregated, would they?
A Not according to my definition. They would be 

racially mixed according to my definition. I had the 
category of racially mixed as a category stating that there 
were more than ten percent of the minority but not within 
the desegregation range.

Q Am I correct in assuming that when they go above 
the desegregation range by your definition, it is not 
desirable?

A That's right. So I made a tentative choice, to 
leave it that way rather than to bring in the others, and 
maybe you are influencing me to say that we probably should 
have brought in Rural Hall and Walkertown Elementary in 
order to do this.

Q But the way you have your proposal now, you have

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moved from one situation that you consider undesirable to 
another situation that you consider undesirable?

A That’s right, but not quite so undesirable. It’s 
a little better.

Q And to achieve an undesirable situation in the 
opposite direction, you are moving maybe two thousand 
children?

A Well, tvro thousand - I don't know if you would be 
moving that many.

Q Well, you’ve got three thousand people involved 
here, haven't you?

A I believe from Mr. Ward’s testimony yesterday we 
are moving about 17,000 busing now, and 2,000 - that relatior 
ship is not very big.

Q There's no reason to relate those two in this 
context, is there, Dr. Larsen?

A I don't know. Maybe in moving 2,000, maybe some 
of those 17,000 that are moving wouldn't have to be moved.
I don't know what your present bus routes are.

0 'There's nothing that you are proposing that would 
permit a child to go to school nearer his home than he is 
now going, is it?

A It's conceivable, yes.
Q Please explain that.
A As you adjust allocation, you adjust numbers.

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WINSTON SALEM. N C



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Maybe in the schools that are relatively close together, 
somebody may be going to Mineral Springs where he would then 
be going to Oak Summit, which is a little closer.

Q Do you know that he can go right now to the school 
that's closest to his home?

A Y/ithin the same distance, yes.
Q That's within the same distance?
A I'm not sure he's doing that, see.
Q He can if he wants to?
A Yes, and if there's room.
Q If he is within the district and it's closer to

his home, he can go there under this plan. Don't you 
understand that?

A The present one?
Q Yes.
A There would be a time, I would assume, that that 

exception would have to be made. It would have to be made 
with the density of the —

Q You're talking theory; you don't understand that 
exists now, do you?

A It does in many districts.
Q I'm talking about here in Winston-Salem, in the 

uistrict that we're talking about. You don't understand 
that that exists here, do you, in Mineral Springs, Oak 
Summit, Prince Ibraham District?

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Ph ONE: 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6



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A Wait just a moment.
Q What 1 1m getting at is you are not testifying 

that you have information that any child who lives closer 
to Oak Summit Elementary School is not permitted as a matter 
of right to go to Oak Summit School, or any child who is 
living closer to Mineral Springs is not permitted to go 
to Mineral Springs, or any child that lives closer to Prince 
Ibraham is not permitted to go there?

A That's right. You asked me in a theoretical 
sense, and you use these examples to prove a theory.

Q But it doesn't work, does it?
A The theory still works. There might come a day, 

as I tried to say, that the density of population around 
one given school—

Q We're talking about between now and the end of 
June, 1970.

A You're bringing theory down to practicality.
Q Yes, sir, I want to be practical.
A There are still spaces at Oak Summit and still

spaces at Ibraham; they are not overcrowded there.
Q So practically, speaking from a factual standpoint 

any transfer of any child under your proposal in this Group 
B would require that child to go farther to school than he 
now goes?

A Yes, it. probably would work out that way. There

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may be an exception to that, Mr. Womble. There are 61 or so 
black students presently at Mineral Springs. 1 don't know 
precisely where they are living. It may be that they will 
go a little bit closer next time; I don't know. So the 
answer to your question, I don't precisely know. The chances 
are very likely.

Q All right. Now, let's look at District 2 under 
your proposal.

A Yes, sir.
Q And let's take a look at the populations of those 

schools.
A I have the populations from the old figures. Do 

you want me to bring these up to date?
Q Let's take a look at the correct figures. Kimberly

Park?
A Kimberly Park is now 778, all black.
Q Carver Crest?
A It is now 477 and all black.
Q Lowrance?
A Lowrance has become 738, 726 black to 12 white.
Q Speas?
A Speas has—  shall we agree that1s black and white? 

Speas then would have 2 black and 996 white.
Q Whitaker?
A 7 black, 608 white.

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Q Sherwood Forest?
A Presently 822 white and 1 black.
Q Moore?
A 439 white.
Q Brunson?
A Brunson now is 540 white, 335 black.

THE COURT: Again the last figure?
THE WITNESS: 135.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Ardmore?
A I have 7 black and 586 white.
u So the total number of pupils, black and white,

involved in that Group C?
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry about this, Your Honor.

The problem is that I have the data from the projected 
enrollments and we are bringing it up to date with the 
new sheet that we just got.

THE COURT: I hope that you and Mr. Womble have
proven that mathematics is not an exact science.
0 (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, in your Group C, 

which includes Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, Lowrance,
Speas, Whitaker, Sherwood Forest, Moore, Brunson and Ardmore, 
and you have a total of how many pupils?

A 4,003 white, 2132 black.
Q That would be a total of a little over 6,000 then, 

wouldn’t it?

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map?

A Yes.
Q 6,135?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, would you please spot these schools on the

A Kimberly Park - can I do this Just by pointing?
Q All right.
A Kimberly Park is here; we come down Just below it,

Carver Crest; Lowrance is up here next to Hanes; Speas is 
over here; Whitaker right here; Sherwoou Forest - we move 
out here, Moore, and Ardmore here, Brunson here. What I 
did essentially was to draw a grouping like this (inuicating 
on map).

Q Now, from the east to west boundary of the group 
area you have Just pointed out, how many miles is it?

A It is six miles.
Q And the distance north ana south is how many

miles?
A Six, approximately six miles.
Q Now, the black children in that area live in what 

part of the total area you Just pointed to?
A In the more or less the upper northeastern portion. 
Q That's almost the northeast comer, isn't it?
A Kimberly Park is up near the corner, and then 

you come down to Carver Crest, yes. Lowrance, I'm sorry.

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s  

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Q It’s the northeast corner of the tract?
A Yes, sir. These come close to being once again

your city schools.
Q And the Kimberly Park area is how far across east 

and west?
A You mean from here to here?
Q From east-west on Kimberly Park?
A A mile.
Q In fact a little less than a mile?
A Just slightly.
Q And from north to south?
A A little more than a mile.
Q No—
A I ’m sorry. The same tiling.
Q It’s about three-quarters of a mile, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Your Carver Crest is about the same size and

shape as the Kimberly Park area?
A Yes, about a mile and a half or two miles in each

direction.
Q It's nearer three-quarters of a mile than a mile, 

isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Nov/, Lowrance is a little bit largex1 in area, but

the eastern and western portions of it are not developed,

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P u n u r  7 fie :



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are they?
A That's right.
Q So that the residential area around Lowrance would 

be approximately the same size as the area served by Kimber­
ly Park and Carver Crest, wouldn't it?

A Discounting the non-developed areas?
Q Yes.
A Lowrance pulls from a pretty wide—
Q I say discounting the undeveloped areas, it's

approximately the same size as Kimberly Park and Carver 
Crest, isn't it?

A Yes. One thing bothers me a little.
Q Could you answer that first?
A Yes. The map is basically a '66 map. 1 am not

certain whether this is built up in these undeveloped areas 
a little mo.e than it was.

Q 7;ell, the east part of Lowrance is in the airport,
isn't it?

A Yes.
Q So there wouldn't be much likelihood of any 

development there, would there?
A No. I don't remember what was here.
Q Do you recall going out Cherry-Marshall and 

seeing the coliseum and fairgrounds?
A Yes, sir.

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P mowf



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Q And that area was not developed as a residential 
area, was it?

A No. There are some new shopping areas going in 
rather close to here.

Q But they are not houses?
A That's right.
Q Now, would you please explain under your proposal 

how you would expect to get the black children from Carver 
Crest, Kimberly Park and Lowrance, to create the two to one 
mix you propose in Ardmore, Moore, Brunson, Whitaker, 
Sherwood Forest, and Speas, and how you would propose to 
get the white children from Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker 
Moore and Ardmore into Carver Crest, Kimberly Park and 
Lowrance?

A How would they get there?
Q How would you propose to reassign them?
A Many of them—  well, that’s two questions, Mr. 

Womble. How would they travel there, or how they would be 
reassigned?

Q How would they be reassigned?
A By residence area nearest, and by race, as I

said.
Q Explain what you would be doing, for example take 

Lowrance.
A Yes, sir.

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PHONE: 765-0636



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Q
A Yes, sir.
Q Of the area that you have circumscribed?
A Yes, sir.
Q You now have 726 black children going to Lowrance?
A Mr. Womble—  can we go off the record for a moment,

Your Honor?
THE COURT: Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)
THE COURT: Back on the record.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, the sheet that you 
were working from when you prepared your proposal showed 
the composition of Lowrance to be projected for the year 
1969-70 as what?

A 705 white, 20 black, for a total of 725. I 
therefore treated it as a white school.

Q You now find that it consists of 726 black and 12 
white?

A Yes, sir.
Q Just about the reverse of the figures you were 

working from?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what difference would that make in your 

proposal, Dr. Larsen?
A I would have to think about that, Mr. Womble. My

T h is  i s  i n  th e  ex trem e n o r th e a s t  p a r t?

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first reaction would be to use Lowrance in a different 
context that I have. I would have to - in a sense - go back 
to the drawing board looking at Lowrance as all black. 
Probably then it should be assigned—  it might be assigned 
better to the other group than to this one.

Q When you say the other group, you are talking 
about—

A Group A.
Q Ibraham, Oak Summit, Mineral Springs, Fairview 

and Carver. Now, if you did that, that would make a bad 
situation worse, according to your proposal, wouldn’t it?

A Then I would add Rural Hall and Walkertown to it, 
to bring more white children in and make the district go up
like that. And I'm very sorry about that, about an innocent 
mistake on my part.

Q Each time the picture changes then, it calls for 
a completely different look at it, doesn’t it?

A No. No school district zone lines are ever fixed; 
they must be adjusted.

Q Dr. Larsen, have you been advised of the residentia: 
pattern in the North Elementary and Lowrance Elementary areas 
Has there been a change in that pattern in the last five 
years?

A Well, I cannot testify as to—  I have inferred 
from comments that I have heard that the area has changed.

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Q
Yes. I don't know how long a period of time was
From all white to all black?

A
involved,

Q Now, as you approached school assignment, if an 
ax'ea is all white and children are assigned to a different 
school, with those children being all white, and then the 
neighborhood changes from white to black, would you change 
the school to which the children are assigned for the sole 
purpose of achieving the racial mix?

A I will hold desegregated schools as that important 
that I may likely do so. I find it also, in answer to your 
question, Mr. v/omble, that if the district is desegregated, 
the chance of a neighborhood changing is cut down somewhat.

Q Hanes High School - Hanes Junior High School, was 
all white five years ago, or approximately that - maybe it 
was a little iurther back — said went through a period where 
there was a heavy racial mix, and now it is all black, or 
practically so. Under your theory, why didn't it stop 
somewhere and remain as an integrated school?

A Perhaps because the whites who formerly went to 
it were able to move to areas that still remained all 
white schools. If the areas to which they were able to 
move were also desegregated, the chances of their moving 
would have been cut down.

Q You presume that to be true?

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P u m kil AC Q C



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A I  have seen i t  happen i n  a c o u p le  o f  o c c a s io n s ,

and—
Q In other words, it's one of those things that 

might happen or it might not happen?
A People change their residence from one area to 

another for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons, as 
you said, could be the educational plan to which they are 
going. They may go to it because it is all white, and the 
one they are living near becomes a changed pattern.

Q People also move to where they move to because 
of the neighborhood and the neighbors they'll have, don't 
they?

A And all other kinds of reasons.
Q For lots of reasons.
A One of the reasons is the one I cited.
Q Now, you have never lived in a community where 

you had integrated schools of the proportions that we are 
talking about today, have you?

A Not of the proportions, but the problems - the 
school population was 15 or 18 percent Negro.

Q Didn't you testify this morning that it was 12 to 
15 .percent?

A 12 to 15 percent.
Q Isn't that what you said this morning?
A I think that the entire Negro population was 12 to

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15 percent, and the school population ranges from 12 up to 
18, around 15.

Q Now, forgetting Lowrance for a moment then, since 
that was not in accordance with what you find the facts now 
to be, please explain by reference to the geographic area 
around Kimberly Park and Carver Crest the procedure you 
would follow in selecting students in those areas to be 
transferred to other schools and how you would decide which 
direction to send those students, and in reverse the geo­
graphic places from which you would assign students now 
attending Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker, Moore, and 
Ardmore and Brunson, to attend Kimberly Park and Carver 
Crest.

A I would do so by basis of pupil locater map, 
spotted the residence or the immediate block or two of the 
residence of each child, and assign them to the school 
nearest his home area in relation to race as well. This is 
how I would do it; doing it on the basis of this map, I 
can only speak in terms of theory.

Q And you are not speaking, you are not saying, 
you are not undertaking to say to this Court that it would 
be practical, are you?

A I would say it is possible only.
Q But not necessarily practical?
A. I suppose that would be - from the limits of

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practicality - it depends on the objective you are using. 
Under my objective, it would be practical and possible.

Q And your objective then is to do anything that is 
necessary to achieve a two-to-one racial mix in that area?

A I hold that desegregation is important enough to 
do what you must do. The other alternative would seem to 
be all black schools in Winston-Salem, and I don't think 
that is anyone's objective.

0 And you would do this even though it meant taking
a child - even if it was a black - from Sherwood Elementary
School and sending that child three miles to Carver Crest 
on a direct line, when it might be four miles following 
the street line?

A Yes, sir.
Q And you would do the same thing with children in 

the Ardmore area, the iioore area, the Whitaker area, the 
Speas area. You say that it is of such importance to 
achieve a specific racial mix that you would require a 
child from any one of those neighborhoods who might be 
within walking distance of his school - might live within
a block of the school - to send that child to Kimberly Park
or to Carver Crest?

A Yes, sir.
Q And in reverse, you would take a child who might 

live within a block of Kimberly Park or Carver Crest, and

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regardless of the wishes of the family or the child, require 
that child to go to Speas or to Sherwood Forest or to 
Whitaker or to Moore or to Ardmore or to Brunson?

A It could be.
Q And you think that is educationally sound?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, you live in Rhode Island, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q If you were the superintendent of schools in 

Winston-Salem/Forsyth County, or on the Board of Education, 
that would be what you would recommend?

A Yes, sir. Mot necessarily especially that, but 
I would recommend methods and approaches and plans where 
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School System could be 
desegregated. Rather, I would do the precise approach that 
I have mentioned here on the basis of the data available to 
me. I cannot say; I believe if I were the superintendent 
I would have more data and perhaps could do a much better 
30b of desegregating the system as I have pointed out. But 
I would work out a plan for doing that particular job, yes, 
sir.

Q And you would do it in the middle of the spring 
semester of 1970?

A I would do it as quickly as I possibly could. I 
would assume that I have many plans, I would have much

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knowledge already and wouldn't be starting to form a plan 

completely from scratch on January 22nd.
Q You have never lived in a community that did this

while you were living there, have you?
A vie did in Providence, Rhode Island when I was

there.
Q Providence, Rhode Island doesn't have the racial 

mix Winston-Salem, North Carolina has, does it?
A You didn’t ask the question that way; you asked 

me if I had lived in an area where this had been done, and 
I said yes. If I lived in a town where the racial composi­

tion is 75/25, no.
Q Did they do it in Providence in the middle of the 

school year?
A As a matter of fact, yes, they did.

Q VI hat month?
A I believe it was November, Mr. Womble.

Q What year?

A 1967.
Q How many children were transferred?
A I don't remember precisely. I could not say,
Q How much busing was required?
A Quite a bit; a good lot. Providence has a popu­

lation of something around 200,000 people, so it’s a fair 

size community.

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Pm on f • 765 0636



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Q Approximately how many black children were moved 

into white schools?
A Enough to raise the percentage—
Q How many in number approximately?
A I do not remember; I can't answer that question 

because 1 don't have those statistics in front of me. There 
were about 12 to 15 percent black students, and the schools— j 
each school was desegregated until there were not more 
majority black or all black schools, and no more all white 

schools.
Q How many schools did they have in the system?
A There are five large senior high schools, nine 

large junior high schools, and the requisite number of 
elementary schools to feed the schools. I don't know the 
number of elementary schools.

Q What is the geographic area?
A I couldn't tell you.
Q It’s not comparable to Forsyth County, is it?
A It's very dense. Getting across town in Providence 

from one side to another would take a longer time, even in 
a car, than going from one side of the county here to 
another. My college is on the west-north section of town, 
and to go to the church I attend on the east side of 
Providence, is a distance of perhaps not more than five 
miles or so, but in the best times it takes me in a car at

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WINSTON SALEM N C

Phone 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6



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least twenty minutes.
Q So it’s approximately five miles across town, is

it?
A Not to extremes, because neither of these are to 

extremes. We have a saying in Providence that you can’t 
get from one place to another very easy.

Q It is Just not comparable to Forsyth County, is it? 
A It is comparable in times.
Q It's not comparable in population or in geography,

is it?
A No.
Q Or in racial mix?
A No. We do have youngsters spending up to half 

an hour on a bus each way.
Q And that's good?
A It’s new to them; it's neutral; it's neither good 

or bad. It depends on what happens at their destination. 
That is important. If what happens at their destination, 
at the school to which they go, if what happens there is 
good and better than it would be close to them, then the 
bus ride is worth it. It's not the bus ride itself; it's 
what happens when they arrive at the place they're going.

Q Dr. Larsen, are you telling this Court that if 
you can work out a good educational system so that a child 
can get to school in five minutes, can get home in five

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Ph o n e : 765 0 6 3 6



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minutes, that it makes no difference to revamp the setup 
and have him spend a half an hour going each way?

A If the end of the ride is a desegregated school, I 
think it's worth it, and this is what I think, yes.

Q Let me read you a letter and ask you if you agree 
or disagree. "The majority of whites think we blacks favor 
this school integration bit. They couldn’t be more mis­
taken. Let me give many blacks’ viewpoint once again. Our 
black children and teachers will be placed in a minority 
situation. Only in our black schools are we in the majority. 
These government interferences and handouts that are 
supposed to help us hurt us more, but the so-called liberal 
element that is destroying this nation is too stupid to see 
the later effects. The AFDC is a perfect example of how 
our black men became emasculated. It breaks up more of our 

families and creates numbers of Illegitimate children.
Again in this school integration bit, it will be my 
children and the poor white children who will suffer. They 
will be transported across town to these fine schools, and 
they will not be able to take part in after-school activi­
ties. Who will bring them home? Most of us are not even 
a one-car family, much less two. They will be sitting 
next to children who are materially much richer, and this 
is very depressing and makes a young one feel even more 
inferior, and makes me feel bad because I can't provide my

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P h o n e  7 6 5 0 6 3 6



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children with fancy clothes. The poor again will suffer 
because the rich will 3end their children to private schools 
and siphon off our best teachers. As it stands now, even 
our best schools are bad enough. Don't ever make the 
mistake of believing that a shining new facility will 
provide a better education. We live near the old Gray High 
School. It has got a whiz-bang reputation, not only for 
music and dance, but for booklearning. It is an old build­
ing; its old building didn't hold it back. Too many of our 
blacks hove no pride. What really hurts is for them and 
the Supreme Court to think that we have got to mix with 
whites to better ourselves. What gall for them to believe 
in this racial supremacy of the white man." Do you think 
there may be some truth in some of that?

A I think it's very sad, Mr. Womble. I am very 
distressed humanly, educationally, that we may be further 
polarizing the races. I think this is very sad. I would 
feel as sad if that letter were written by a white man as 
by a black man. I think we must find ways in our educational 
planning to bring the races together in a kind of composi­
tion that reflects the reality of the community and not 
polarize them, and not use the schools to - in a sense, to 
polarize them. I think this is very sad.

Q Don't you think it also may be sad to artificially 
force people to be mixed according to some formula that you

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WINSTON SALEM. N C

Phone 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6



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or someone else has come up with against the wishes of the 
people who are involved, the people - I ’m talking about the 
individual person now who is going to school or whose child 
is going to school?

A The word "artificial" troubles me, Mr. Womble. I 
don't think that any assignment to school necessarily is 
artificial. Youngsters for generations have been assigned 
to schools not near their homes, and in getting to the 
schools to which they were assigned they often had to pass 
other schools. I don’t remember its being called artificial 
then. The reason they didn't go to the school nearest their 
homes could have been density of population, or the school 
Just couldn't hold them and they had to be transported or 
taken to a school in which there was room - mobility of 
population, or in some cases because of a dual school system. 
If we didn't call that artificial then, I cannot for the 
life of me see why we can call it artificial now.

Q Do you think it was wrong to transport the black 
children of Forsyth County from all over the county outside 
of the City of Winston-Salem to go to Carver School?

A Speaking back in the old dual system days?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I do think it was wrong. It was bad.
Q Do you think two wrongs make a right?
A No. No. I think in trying to bring the races

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together, we are not doing a wrong, Mr. Womble. I cannot 
believe that.

Q Don't you think that there may be better ways to 
bring the races together without forcing a child who lives 
within a block of one school to be transported by bus two, 
three, four, five, six or eight miles to another school 
that he doesn't want to attend, that his parents don't 
want him to attend, that take* him a half an hour to get 
there and back?

A I don't think that is necessarily a wrong. I 
think that the objective is a sound one; the objective of 
transporting to keep the schools segregated, in my opinion, 
was not on the same level of soundness.

Q Do you not think, Dr. Larsen, that this matter of 
the individual preference of a child and its parents may 
have some legitimate part to play in our constitutional—  

under our constitution?
A That smacks at being a legal question, Mr. Womble.

I am not a constitutional lawyer.
Q Don't you think it ought to have a part to play?
A Individual choice to attend school? I think in 

our present culture it cannot have the primary place to play. 
This is what I think. I hope that in the future, we can 
honor this in every way. I think now other considerations 
must also be weighed in the balance.

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Q If the black students and their families reside
in the Patterson Avenue, the Bon Air Avenue area of town - 
which would be sort of north central in Winston-Salem - 
because that's where they want to live, and if they live 
there and prefer to attend the school in which the students 
or the majority of the students are their neighbors, and 
if you have qualified teachers and a qualified principal 
in that school to provide them with an education that is 
equal to the educational opportunities that they might get 
elsewhere, and if they feel more comfortable there and they 
enjoy the school activities that they can engage in and 
still walk home for dinner, and if they prefer to be involved 
in class activities, student activities, where the elections 
to one thing or another - where there would be a cheer 
leader, class president, or what - is an election among 
students who are their neighbors in their own community, 
should they be denied that privilege?

A Yes, sir. May I make a statement on that, Mr. 
Womble?

MR. STEIN: Dr. Larsen, before you answer—  Your
Honor, I fail to see the relevance of the discussion.
It might be interesting, but I think that the argument 
implied in Mr. Womble's questions is exactly the kind 
of argument which has been foreclosed by the courts.
I heard Pat Taylor make exactly the same argument when

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he argued the Harnett County case over a year ago in 
the Fourth Circuit, and it did not prevail there.

THE COURT: Mr. Stein, you know, these witnesses
come into court and he has testified what a desegre­
gated school is - that’s a question of law. I let him 
testify because the courts have been doing that. The 
shoe is on the other foot. I need all the help I can 
get in this matter. And you have all gone fax- afield 
as far as the evidence goes in this, both sides, the 
defendants and everybody else, but it looks like these 
matters develop into one of those sessions whereby you 
introduce books and you introduce any and everything, 
and I think that this is beyond the point, too. Also 
his conclusion about what a desegregated school, as 
you and myself know the law, that would be improper.
But that's the way this area has developed, and I am 
going to let this go on for a little while. I hope 
you can bring it to a conclusion, M r. Womble.

MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir. I'm going to bring it to
one right now, I hope.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr, Larsen, are you by any chance 

familiar with the results of some research that was done in 
the Winston-Salem/ForsythCounty School System in October of 
1968 as it relates to the reading achievement of Negro 6th 
grade pupils in white schools, 1967-68?

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A No, sir.
Q Would you be surprised to find that the results 

of that research brought the following conclusion: "From
the facts as found in the tables, the following conclusions 
can be stated in regard to these pupils and their scores 
on the tests administered. (1) The Negro who has spent at 
least two years in white schools achieved at about the same 
level as they would if they had remained in a Negro school. 
(2) That the number of Negroes in white schools who lost 
ground in regard to the average reading achievement from 
the third grade to the sixth grade is about three times the 
number who have gained, whereas the expected number in each 
category should be about the same. (3) That only six of 
the Negroes in white schools have reading achievement scores 
that exceeded the average reading scores of the white pupils 
with the same tested I.Q.'s. Of these six, none had tested 
I.Q.'s below 90. (4) The Negro pupils going to white
schools possessed slightly higher I.Q.'s than did Negroes 
who remained in Negro schools. Considering the average 
reading scores of these two groups, there was little 
difference, but the difference that existed favored those 
who remained in the Negro schools." Would those conclusions 
be in line with your theory that there are automatic benefits 
to be gained just from mixing?

A I think that they may demonstrate that we need to

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a better job in all of our schools. I believe that we can 
find research that shows that achieving scores for black 
youngsters are higher in desegregated schools than they are 
in all black schools. I believe that this does not obviate 
the necessity in my opinion of desegregating public educa­
tion in Winston-Salem or anywhere else.

Q But might it not also indicate that the appropriate
way to do it is along more natural lines than the artificial
arbitrary approach that you have testified to today?

A I don’t know what natural lines are in this field, 
Mr. Womble. You mean wait—  we've beenveiting under freedom 
of choice until eventually some yon day the races decided
to go to school together. I don't know when that would
happen. I'm very much afraid of polarization, and I'm 
afraid that the letter you read me is very indicative of 
what might happen, and I'd hate to see it happen in Winston.

Q Are you by any chance familiar with another result 
of research by the Research Department of the Winston-Salem/ 
Forsyth County Schools, which was published in July of 1969? 
It is entitled, "A Study of the Test Scores and Academic 
Marks made by the Negro Elementary Pupils Who Were Enrolled 
in the White Schools During the School Year 1968-69”.

A No.
Q Would you expect to be surprised to find that the 

conclusions of this particular research were these: "From

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this study of the letter marks received by Negro students 
attending white schools, the following general conclusions 
may be stated concerning these pupils at this time, and 
with the limitations listed. (1) Among Negro pupils, those 
who began in white schools received higher percentage of 
high marks in white schools than did those who transferred. 
(2) While in Negro schools, the majority of Negro students 
in this study received grades at least "C" or above in the 
four academic areas, and after transferring to white schools, 
the majority of pupils received "D” or "F" except in 
spelling. (3) The average letter mark received in the 
Negro schools is at least one-half a mark higher than that 
received in the white school in the same subject. To say 
it in another manner, the average letter mark obtained in 
white schools for the Negro pupils in this study is at 
least one-half a letter mark below his mark in the Negro 
school, as seen from Table 33.'’

A I can only refer you to my former answer, Mr. 
Womble. I think w© can do a better job in all the schools.

Q Dr. Larsen, in connection with the proposal that 
you have made, have you made any studies as to the number of 
pupils who would be involved in the transfer?

A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the amount of busing 

that would be required?

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A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the cost that would be

required?
A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the time it would take 

to prepare such a plan, to make assignments in accordance 
with such a plan, to notify parents and students of assign­
ment, to order and receive school buses, to obtain appropri­
ation of funds for the purchase of buses, and other expendi­
tures that would be involved in order to do what you are 
proposing?

A The answer to those questions is no.
Q At this point, could you even estimate how many 

weeks it would take to - or how long it would take on a 
practical - not a theoretical basis, but on a practical 
basis, to put together — well, strike that. To do whac you 
are talking about, you would have to know where every child
lived, wouldn't you?

A Within a close vicinity, yes.
Q And you would have to know the race of each child 

at each place of residence?
A Yes.
Q Now, assuming that the information as to all of 

that is not available in sufficient detail, or with suffi­
cient completeness to enable the school system to make

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assignments on the basis of residence and race that you 
propose, how long would you think it would take, even if the 
money were available to buy the buses and had been appropri­
ated and any additional cost that would be involved as far 
as implementing the plan were concerned, to get that informa­
tion correlated realistically, work it out for the assignment 
of all the pupils who would be involved here, and to perform 
this task?

A If we started from scratch today, on January 26th 
or January 22nd, from scratch and had to—

Q From what?
A From scratch.
Q From what date?
A From today, whatever today is, the 22nd. If we

are starting from point zero, it would take some time - I 
don't know how long.

Q Maybe months?
A No, it wouldn't take months. No school district—
Q Have you tried to buy any school buses lately?
A No school district—
Q Answer me. Have you been involved in the purchase 

of any school buses lately?
A No, sir.
Q Well, don't you know that that alone can take 

months?

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A Do I know this? I don’t know it, no.
Q Are you familiar with the work that has been done 

by the local school system during the past month to arrange 
for the reassignment of teachers so that as of the beginning 
of the second semester of this year, they will be assigned 
to schools on a racial ratio basis?

A I assume there has been work; obviotwly there has 
been a good deal of work done.

Q Would you think that it might be reasonable for 
them to have been working practically full-time for a month 
to accomplish this?

A I don’t know how long it took them, Mr. Womble.
Q Using computers, notifying teachers, considering 

individual situations - it has nothing to do with busing, 
it has nothing to do with residence - you can appreciate 
that it would take quite some time to do this other job, 
can’t you?

A It can, yes. Yes, it can take time, or it can be 
done quickly. You are asking me a question on relative 
terms. It's very difficult to answer it. I ’d like to be 
able to answer it specifically.

Q It wouldn't be fair to the children to do a sloppy 
job, would it?

A I don't think a sloppy Job should ever be done in 
anything.

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Q So that anything that needs to be done needs to be 
done right, doesn't it?

A Yes. No Job is completely irrevocable.
Q Dr. Larsen, under the proposal that you have made, 

there would be no change in Bolton, would there?
A Let me see. I believe not. No, sir. I left that 

off the grouping.
Q And that was comprised of 520 white and 1 Negro, 

is that right?
A That's right. I left some all white schools; that 

is right.
Q The two schools that are privately owned as far 

as the buildings are concerned, Children's Center and 
Children's Home, you have not bothered with those?

A That's correct.
Q The school at Clemmons, in the southwestern part 

of the county, which is currently attended by 14 Negroes 
and 972 whites, would not be affected?

A That's right.
Q Easton, which is currently attended by 146 black 

and 191 white, would not be affected?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Easton, according to your definition, is not a 

desegregated school?
A I believe I classified that in another category.

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A I put that in the category between desegregated
and segregated. That's what I did.

Q So that Easton with 146 blacks and 191 whites is
not desegregated according to your definition?

A That's right. It's racially mixed.
Q But it is not a desirable situation?
A Not completely, no, by no means. I did not pretenc 

to do a complete Job of abolishing all all-white schools or 
all majority white schools. A complete Job of desegregation 
in the entire system, I would assume to mean that every 
school has blacks and whites in it, with a majority white 
and a minority black. I did not do that complete a Job.

Q But what you proposed you would call a unitary
system, wouldn't you?

A I would hope so. I would hope so for the present 
at least. I would assume that the Board would continue work­
ing on the problem.

Q Your proposal would not affect 14th Street, which 

has 583 blacks?
A I did make a suggestion, I believe, that 14th 

Street be—  wait a moment; let me check. I think I suggestec. 
that it be reduced in size and perhaps eventually phased out 
I did not now assign it in the groupings.

Q Didn't you this morning testify that you would
leave it as it is for the time being?

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A I think that's what I said, yes. There were two 
schools in the inner city, two black schools in the inner 
city, I suggested that they be reduced in size; otherwise

- y

left as it is, as they are, that is at the present. I 
think you're right.

Q When you have a plant of a certain size, you don't 
improve the school by reducing the pupil population to less 
than, say 580 some odd in the elementary school? Isn't that 
a good size for an elementary school? Isn't 583, assuming 
that it is not beyond capacity for the building, isn't that 
within normal range for an elementary school?

A Yes. Reducing the size so we can concentrate more 
the teacher-pupil ratio until we can do something else with 
these all black schools. What you are saying to me, Mr. 
Womble, is that I did not do a complete Job of desegregation, 
and this is true. I was not able to figure out how to do—  

there are several inner city all black schools. I tried to 
come up with an approach that would do an approximate Job 
of desegregation throughout the district. To do the same 
with 14th Street and North as I did with Fairview and Sky- 
land, Kimberly Park, Carver Crest and Carver, it was Just 
much more complicated and I Just didn't go that far.

Q It Just does get complicated, doesn't it?
A Yes, it does, and it is not easy.
Q Your proposal would not affect Griffith School?

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Q Which is presently attended by 1,020 whites?
A That's right. I left that along with several 

of the others on the fringes.
Q Nor would it affect Kernersville, which is 

attended by 36 blacks, 5 Indians, and 1,111 whites?
A That1s right.
Q Nor would it affect Latham, which is attended by 

3 Indians, 7 blacks, 1 Oriental, and 415 whites?
A That1s right.
Q Nor would it affect Lewisville, which is attended 

by 29 Negro and 602 whites?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect North Elementary, which is 

attended by 689 blacks?
A North Elementary, I think was in the same cate­

gory as 14th Street.
Q Nor would it affect Old Richmond, which is 

attended by 41 whites - I mean 41 blacks and 309 whites?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect Old Town, which is attended 

by 1 Indian, 99 black, 2 Oriental, 1,186 white?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect Rural Hall, which is attended 

by 50 black, 871 white?

A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .

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A

Nor would it affect South Park, which is attended
T h a t 's  r i g h t .

Q
"by 4 black and 556 white?

A That's right.
Q Now would it affect Union Cross, which is attended 

by 3 black and 659 white?
A That's right.
Q Nor would it affect Vienna, which is attended by 

12 black and 423 white?
A Yes.
Q Nor would it affect Walkertown, which is attended 

by 1 Indian, 91 black, 916 white?
A That's right.
Q And at this point you don't know how it would 

affect any of the junior high schools or high schools?
A It's done through a feeder system, as I said.

That's right.
Q Dr. Larsen, under your proposal, would you transfer 

children by classes, or would you ignore that in making 
transfers? I'm talking about, say a home classroom unit?

A I would try not to. I think I suggested to 
assume that everyone is home and not in the school and then 
assign them to the school nearest his home and also by 
race, and not to take a class out of a school and transfer 
that class to another school. I would—

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Q In other words, the net result would be to break
up the classes, wouldn't it?

A It could be.
Q Well, it would be, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, what do you consider the optimum 

mixing of the races in the school?
A I don’t know. I think in our culture the optimum 

must be with a rather substantial majority of white over 
black. Precisely what the numbers or the percentages should 
be, I could not say, but I think substantially white over 
black.

Q Why?
A I think we have found from some national research 

that if the whites outnumber the blacks by the ratio of 
somewhere around two-thirds to one-third or more, that the 
whites are not hurt and that the black people, the black 
youngsters probably rise in achievement. This research is 
not complete yet, but the indications are that the majority 
of black schools, or near majority black schools, tend to 
be inferior schools than do schools that are majority white.

Q What research do you refer to?
A The research of the U. S. Civil Rights Commission 

Study, the Racial Isolation of the Public Schools, and other 
research that has become—

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Q

“  7

Is that the same as the Coleman Report?
A Yes, the Coleman Report predated some of that, yes.
Q Is that research based on—  what is that research

based on as far as geographical areas are concerned?
A Studies of schools with different kinds of racial 

composition, from all black schools, studies from all black 
schools to several kinds of compositions, and the majority 
white schools seem to the better type. I think you are 
fortunate in that your racial composition is about 75/25 
in this district.

Q And there is much disagreement among educators as 
to the real facts with respect to this matter, isn't there?

A We have not had a research study long enough, 
enough of a longitudinal base, to give us more than what we 
call indications. The results though that all black schools 
tend to be inferior in raising achievement levels of students 
it seems to be quite apparent.

Q So it is certainly not established as fact, is it?
A I think the latter almost is, Mr. Womble.
Q Your disagreement with the conclusions of these 

reports is found among both black and white educators, isn't 
it?

A With some of the conclusions, particularly some of 
the statistical interpretations, and some of the more 
sophisticated terminology used. The conclusions as to the

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ethicacy of oil black schools in relationship to the 
majority of white schools, I think, is quite well establishec.

Q Now, you talk about the number of blacks reaching 
a point where it hurts the whites. How does it hurt them?

A I don’t know if I said that, Mr. Womble.
q Didn’t you say that the substantial majority 

should be white in any given situation, possibly two-thirds 

to one-third?
A Yes.
q So that the net effect would be not to hurt the 

whites but yet to help the blacks?
A I think this is one of the conclusions we have 

reached from some of these studies, that if the school is 
all black the black students achieve a certain level. If 
the school is majority white - may I back up? If the 
school is all white, the whites achieve a certain level.
If a school is all black, the blacks achieve a certain 
level. If the composition of a school is majority white to 
minority black, the blacks tend to rise above the level 
that they achieve at the all black schools, and the whites 
are at about the same level that they reached in the all 
white school. This is the finding.

Q This is a finding with which there is not total 
agreement, is there? It's not a conclusive finding, is it:

A No finding is really conclusive to that final

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nature. We're still working on it.
Q Isn't there a theory among educators that the 

brilliant child is not hurt by the less brilliant child 
being in the class?

A I don’t know this as a finding. I think this is 
almost on the level of an assumption.

Q It is almost on the same level as this other 
conclusion, isn't it?

A Well, you speak of brilliance; you're not using 
an exact term. A gifted child—

Q This business of indicating with your hands is 
the level of whites and blacks?

A I was indicating with my hands to illustrate that 
a majority white school, in a majority white school - 
substantially a majority white school, the blacks tend to 
achieve perhaps better than they achieve in all black 
schools. This is indicative of culture in the society in 
which we live. I don't necessarily applaud this.

Q Do you agree, Dr. Larsen, cr disagree with the 
proposition that because of some of the cultural tif?tr evv.** 
that you find that are more or less typical of either- the 
white race or the black race, that from the standpoint of 
identifying with and understanding the problems of and 
effectively disciplining the student, there are advantages 
for the teacher and the child to be of the same race?

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A Not necessarily, but I do say - I do think that 
the teachers need the help in understanding youngsters who
are different from themselves, and I believe this is the 
responsibility of the administrative supervisory staff of 
the school system.

Q And it can be a very real problem, can’t it?
A This administrative supervision is not easy, Mr.

Womble.
Q And it can be long and hard in solution?
A Some problems perhaps we always have with us.
Q And that would be one of them, wouldn't it?
A I think we have problems of teachers’ relation­

ships with kids no matter what color the kids are. They 
need help.

MR. Y/OMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. LIGON: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Ho questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
NR. STEIN: Your Honor, I don’t think so.

EXAMINATION BY THE COURT
Q Dr. Larsen, I might not agree with all your testi­

mony; it has stimulated my thought in many areas, and it has 
been very interesting. One matter that I particularly

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wonder about, not being an educator, is your opinion about 
the transfer in the middle of the school year. Much of what 
you say I have no quarrel with particularly, but that it 
would seem to me to bring on many, many problems, which is 
obvious to one not an educator. For instance, you tell me 
that kids are taking these courses in schools that are not 
in other schools. You transfer a child from School A to 
School B where there is not the subject which he was taking 
before, he needs that perhaps to graduate. Of course I 
realize that maybe you could work out some way - time 
permitting - to transfer him to some school perhaps - maybe 
you couldn’t - where French II is being taught. But there 
are all kinds of problems that are obvious to me, untrained 
in your field, that to me many of these matters you have 
in that area, have oversimplified, I think. Maybe not 
intentionally at all. But what I want to ask you, you are 
saying that in a system, in a given system with given 
conditions, that in your opinion you can end up with some 
schools that have very little mixing and still have a unitary 
system, but in your opinion that is not the ideal educational 
system. Is that it? Is that what you are saying to me?

A I think that is very succinctly stated, Your Honor.
Q The Court needs help in this area.
A Yes, sir.
Q And genuine help.

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A I think that a lot of help will be needed. I 
don't mean ever to underestimate hard work or difficulties 
of doing what I think everyone agrees must be done, and I 
think perhaps sometimes a pause between saying we are going 
to do it and the time we do it can be more painful than 
doing it, and then working out the bugs as much as possible.

G And I can see a vast difference in a move back 
earlier in the school year as against this time, you know, 
the process taking place.

THE COURT: Well, if there's nothing further, you
may come down. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Witness excused.)

THE COURT: Gentlemen, is there any reason that
we can't take up with this case 9s30 next Tuesday morning?

MR. WOMBLE: What's that date?
THE COURT: That would be January 27th?
CLERK IDOL: That's correct.
THE COURT: Any reason, Mr. Stein?
MR. STEIN: No. We will be here and ready.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I don't think of anything

right now. I would need to check to see if there is any 
difficulty. If there is, I will see if it's a difficulty 
that is resolvable, and if I find I have any serious diffi­
culty, I'll call Your Honor and let you know what the

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problem is.
THE COURT: All right. How about you, Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No problem,
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: No problem.
MR. WOMBLE: I’ll call and let you know either way.
THE COURT: I am sure Mr. Stein is going to

inquire about Dr. Larsen. I have no further questions.
MR. WOMBLE: I don’t think w e ’ll have anything

further, no, sir.
THE COURT: It's still light and the weather is

bad, and some of you have a long way to go. I have considere 
the matter of the report which I directed to be here by 
February 1st, and there has been a motion that the Board be 
given until February 21st, if I remember it correctly, and 
I am amending my order in the respect that they will submit 
the report on or before February 16th, 1970, which is on 
Monday.

I'm trying to find out what we've got to do next 
week. Mr. Womble, how much do you have?

MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Sarbaugh will be back on the
stand for the completion of his examination, and then as 
matters now stand we will have, I think, no more than three 
other witnesses.

THE COURT: Gentlemen, I warn you now that any

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N - S A L E M .  N.  C.

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argument that you want to present in this matter, I will 
want to hear at the conclusion, and also with reference to 
the summary Judgment motions that have been filed - that 
should be disposed of here by way of any presentation that 
you might desire to make. I don't mean that I will not 
give you time to present an additional brief, a limited 
time, but I will not set another date for '.rgument or 
presentation of argument after we conclude the hearings in 
this case. We have court beginning at 9:00 o ’clock on 
Monday - we have other matters; not this case. We will 
recess until 9:00 o'clock Monday morning. In this case 
Tuesday until 9:30, and we're recessing until 9:00 o ’clock 
Monday morning, and we have some other matters then that I 
must take care of.

All right; adjourn court.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case 
was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on Tuesday,
January 27, 1970.)

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Gentlemen, we had concluded Dr.

Larsen’s testimony at the end of the day on Friday. That 
was a plaintiffs' witness, and on Thursday Mr. Sarbaugh was 
on the stand and I would presume that we are ready to con­
tinue with his examination.

MR. GARROU: Yes, we are, Your Honor.
WHEREUPON,

RAYMOND SARBAUGH
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi­
fied further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, I believe on 

Thursday you had described the Title I art education pro­
gram. Would you then describe, please, the pupil personnel 
services program?

A Yes, sir. The pupil personnel services are 
provided throughout the school system, but they are con­
centrated services provided to those schools which are 
served by Title I of Elementary and Secondary Education Act. 
They are concentrated social services, including counselling 
the students on health matters, behavior, academic problems, 
placement in the special education classes, and much greater 
attention to school attendance in the schools in the Title I 
area in seventeen schools. There are eleven social workers

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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and six nurses who provide this as a team, this concentrated 
pupil personnel service. In the remaining 49 schools in 
the school system which do not qualify for Title I funds, 
they are served by five social workers and receive nursing 
service on a part-time basis, several hours a week.

Q In the schools that contain this program, are only 
eligible children allowed to participate?

A With respect to the pupil personnel services, 
eligible children receive first priority. When the needs of 
eligible children have been met, then these services may be 
extended to other children who are in attendance in those 
schools.

Q Would you describe for us, please, the Junior 
high school fortification program?

A That is an educational sounding term, Mr. Garrou. 
What we really have there in each of the Title I Junior high 
schools, we have a special resource teacher who has sub­
stantial competence and ability, and her function is as 
nearly as anything else that of supervisory work. She is 
an in-the-building supervisor and works directly with the 
teachers and with the students.

Q And what does the special assistant Junior 
principal at Atkins High School do?

A At Atkins, the regular allotment personnel entitles 
that school to one full-time non-teaching assistant principal

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with funds from Title I. Wo created an additional full­
time position in the area of instruction in order to provide 
a person on the faculty in a leadership role who can devote 
his full time to developing a more effective teaching 
program for the students who attend that school.

U Now, describe for us, please, the comprehensive 
school improvement project.

A This is a state and locally supported program, 
different now from the Title I program. This is not a 
program supported with Title I federal funds. It's supporte< 
with state and local monies. Its purpose is to upgrade the 
achievement of pupils especially in reading and communica­
tion skills. It provides for teacher aids in the primary 
grades. It provides generous funds for consultant service, 
for travel and visitation to other programs for the teachers 
who are participating, and funds for materials and equip­
ment.

0 Now, what schools is this program offered in?
A This program is in Fairview Elementary School.
Q Now, what is your tutorial program?
A We hove considerable use of volunteers throughout 

the school system. Much of it is with and through the 
cooperation of the community's Volunteer Bureau. But we 
have one really exemplary tutorial program at Lowrance 
School, and it is a tutorial where people from the community

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come into the school on a regular basis and provide indivi­
dualized assistance under the direction of a child’s class­
room teacher to pupils in the area of reading primarily.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would like to object
to this line of questioning as being clearly irrelevant 
to the question now before the Court, namely, whether 
the School Board has dismantled the racially dual 
system. Now, this testimony might go to something 
later on the merits of whether the School Board is 
properly utilizing Title I and other funds of the 
special program, but it certainly has nothing to do 
with whether the School Board here has dismantled.the 
dual school system. Whether they have operated Title I 
programs in those schools and what they have done 
with those funds, I don’t see any relevance at all to 
the question now that we thought was before the Court, 
whether we had desegregated schools.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, that was objected to on
Friday on the same grounds. I take the position that 
this is here on whether a preliminary injunction should 
be issued. The parties were unable to agree about it 
here to be decided finally on its merits. I think 
going to the issue of whether a preliminary injunction 
should issue, it is competent. I instructed Mr. Garrou 
not to go into the matter with the detail that he had

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

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proposed, but that I would h e a r  i t  i n  a n  a b b r e v i a t e d  

fashion. Overruled.
MR. GARROU: Your Honor, i f  I  might p o i n t  o u t ,

there are allegations in the c o m p l a i n t  t h a t  r e l a t e  t o  

this matter, and our contention is t h a t  w e  a r e  o p e r a t ­

ing a unitary system, a n d  t h e  f o r m u l a  i s  n o t  t h e  t e s t  

ol whether we are operating the s y s t e m ,  a n d  i f  i t ' s  

not the test we feel that we a r e  e n t i t l e d  t o  p u t  o n  

some other substantive evidence.
THE COURT: You may p r o c e e d .  T r y  t o  k e e p  t h i s  a s

concentrated as you can w i t h o u t  g r e a t  d e t a i l .  M r.

Idol, give me Defendants’ E x h i b i t  2 6 .  I  b e l i e v e  t h a t  

is the one w i t h  t h e  s c h o o l s  l i s t e d .  A l l  r i g h t ;  l e t ’ s  

get along.

Q (By Mr. G a r r o u )  M r. S a r b a u g h ,  w o u ld  y o u  d e s c r i b e  

the food service p r o g r a m  i n  t h e  s c h o o l s  b r i e f l y ?

A We have a system-wide consolidated o r  c o o r d i n a t e d  

food service program, uniform e x c e p t  f o r  t h r e e  s p e c i a l  t y p e s  

of food service p r o g r a m s .  I  take i t  y o u  w a n t  me t o  d e a l  

with those special food service p r o g r a m s ?

Q Y e s .

A There are three special types o f  f o o d  s e r v i c e

programs. (One is what is called the special a s s i s t a n c e  f o r  

reduced cost lunches, and this is a program t h a t  i s  s u p p o r t e d  

with federal funds - not Title I, b u t  w i t h  f e d e r a l  l u n c h

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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funds - and in the schools in wliich this reduced cost lunch 
is offered, children are provided a plate lunch, including 
a meat and two vegetables, milk, rolls and butter, for a 
maximum of 250, and they may pay that amount or any amount 
less than that, depending upon their ability to pay, nothing 
50, 100, etcetera, depending on their ability t o  pay. This 
is a more restrictive menu than we provide in the a la carte 
selection in the regular schools. So that's one of these 
programs.

Q Before you go on, why is i t  more r e s t r i c t e d ?

A In order to qualify for the r e d u c e d  c o s t  l u n c h  

program, the only menu that is permitted to be s e r v e d  i s  

this single menu. So there is no o p p o r t u n i t y  t o  p r o v i d e  a n  

a l a  carte; it is an either/or k i n d  o f  t h i n g .

Q Is this a federal requirement?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. Go on.
A There is a breakfast p r o g r a m , a  s p e c i a l  b r e a k f a s t  

program in some schools for eligible children, a n d  it i s  

financed with Title I funds. If a child is t a k i n g  p a r t  in 
the educational programs at his s c h o o l  a n d  m e e t s  t h e  e c o n o m ic  

standard, then he is eligible for free b r e a k f a s t s .  And t h e n  

the third feature of these special p r o v i s i o n s  w o u ld  b e  

lunches in the preschool program, and w e h a v e  m e n t i o n e d  t h a t  

program, for 220-odd children at Carver S c h o o l ,  a n d  a l l  o f

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t h e  c h i l d r e n  i n  t h i s  p r o g r a m  r e c e i v e  l u n c h  w i t h o u t  c o s t .

Q N ow , M r. S a r b a u g h ,  I  s h o w  y o u  a  c o p y  o f  D e f e n d a n t s ’ 

E x h i b i t  3 2 ,  a n d  a s k  i f  t h e  p r o g r a m s  l i s t e d  u n d e r  t h e  s c h o o l  

D i g g s ,  i s  t h a t  a n  a c c u r a t e  l i s t ?  W ere t h o s e  p r o g r a m s

o f f e r e d  i n  t h a t  s c h o o l ?

A Y e s ,  s i r ,  t h e y  a r e  o f f e r e d  i n  t h a t  s c h o o l .

Q N ow , I  sh o w  y o u  a c o p y  o f  D e f e n d a n t s ’ E x h i b i t  2 6 ,

a n d  a s k  y o u  w h a t  t h e  e n r o l l m e n t  o f  D i g g s  i s ,  t h e  r a c i a l  

m ak eu p  o f  D i g g s ?

A T h e r e  a r e  6 0 9  N e g r o  c h i l d r e n  a n d  n o n e  o f  o t h e r

r a c e s .

Q N ow , o n  D e f e n d a n t s '  3 2 ,  a r e  t h e  p r o g r a m s  l i s t e d

u n d e r  t h e  s c h o o l  F a i r v i e w ,  a r e  t h e y  a n  a c c u r a t e  r e p r e s e n t a -

t i o n ?

A Y e s ,  s i r .

Q W hat i s  t h e  r a c i a l  m ak eu p  o f  F a i r v i e w ?

A I t  i s  a n  a l l  N e g r o  e l e m e n t a r y  s c h o o l  w i t h  6 9 3

c h i l d r e n .

Q I s  t h e  1 4 t h  S t r e e t  g i v e n  t h e r e ?

A Y e s ,  t h e y  a r e .

Q W hat i s  t h e  r a c i a l  m ak eu p  o f  1 4 t h  S t r e e t ?

A I t ' s  a n  a l l  N e g r o  e l e m e n t a r y  s c h o o l .

Q And t h e  p r o g r a m s  u n d e r  B r o w n , a r e  t h e y  a c c u r a t e ?

A Y e s ,  s i r .

Q And t h e  r a c i a l  m ak eu p  o f  B row n ?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

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A That is an all Negro elementary school.
Q Lowrance, are the programs there an accurate 

representation?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the racial makeup of Lowrance?
A It is predominantly Negro elementary school. It 

has a small number of white children.
Q North Elementary, the programs there, are they 

an accurate representation?
A
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A

That is an accurate representation.
And what is the racial makeup?
It is an all Negro elementary school.
Kimberly Park, are the programs there accurate? 
Yes, sir.
And what is the racial makeup of Kimberly Park? 
It's an all Negro elementary school.
Skyland, the programs given there —
That’s correct.
And the racial makeup of Skyland?
All Negro.
Hanes Junior High, are the programs given there? 
Yes, that's correct.
And what is the racial makeup of Hanes Junior 

It is substantially Negro. There are 15 white

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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students out of an enrollment of 513.
Q Kennedy Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
fJ What is the makeup of Kennedy?
A It appears to be one white student in a student 

population of 1,043.
Q Are the programs given there?
A Yes.

0 And Atkins High School, are the programs given 
there?

A Yes.

Q And the racial makeup of that school?
A It’s an all Negro high school.
0 Now, are any of these programs given at Paisley 

Junior High?

A The program at Paisley would be comparable to 
what is provided at the other Junior highs, Kennedy - the
Junior high resource teacher and the pupil personnel 
service.

Q Are any of the Pr°grams offered at Mebane Elementary 
School?

A
0
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which we

Yes.

Which ones, do you recall offhand?
Mebane provides the special first grade program, 

referred to as "Open Highways". It has the art

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education program; it is provided with the same pupil 
personnel services as the others; its children are eligible 
for the year-round and summer preschool program; and it is 
participating in the breakfast and the special assistance 
lunch program.

Q How about Anderson Junior-Senior High? Are any 
of these programs offered there?

A Anderson would offer the same programs that are 
offered at Kennedy and Hanes Junior High Schools, the 
resource teacher and the pupil personnel services.

Q I believe you testified on Thursday that to be 
eligible for Title I participation, a child must be from a 
particular area, geographic area, is that correct?

A Yes. A child must live in an area in which the 
concentration of poverty exceeds the average of the 
community at large.

Q Now, would there be any difficulties in adminis­
tering these programs in all of the schools that are not 
now the schools in which they are given?

A There would be difficulty. Some of these programs 
could not be operated if they were spread on a much wider 
basis. The first grade special program referred to as "Open 
Highways" would be very difficult if not impossible to 
administer. Others of these programs could be offered if 
spread more widely. It would be impossible to concentrate

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O r  F it  i a l C o u h i  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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the resources that we have in terms of money and personnel 
as heavily on a child, and the effect would be a dilution, 
it would seem to me, but some of them could be so dispersed.

Q Now, what particular problems would be encountered? 
Would the teacher's Job be easier or more difficult?

A It would be more difficult for the teacher in that 
if children from the Title I projects were dispersed widely, 
the classroom teacher in most instances would have one or 
very few of these children, and she would be—  it would be 
necessary for her to provide this special program for them 
in addition to her regular teaching responsibilities with 
the group she is teaching. So it would increase the diffi­
culty of her Job to some extent.

Q Now, you mentioned the "Open Highways" program.
Why would it be impossible or very difficult to administer?

A The nature of this program is that these children 
are identified at the preschool level. They are grouped 
together as a class, and they have been kept together as a 
class, a concentrated group, over at this point a two- 
year period. If they were dispersed, then the concentration 
effects of that program could not be accomplished.

Q Now, if a child is eligible for Title I help, if 
he were removed to a school in which most of the students 
were not eligible, would he be likely to receive more or 
less benefit from Title I?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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A He would without doubt receive less benefits 
than he is receiving from Title I funds. If that were the 
case, I think we would have to re-think the Title I pro­
grams to a large extent. They have been, Mr. Garrou, 
children that have been assigned who live in the Title I 
target areas who have been assigned to schools outside
that area under free choice of transfer, and it has been__
these children have lost the benefit of that Title I pro­
gram by the transfer, because the evidence that we have so 
far indicates that ovrbest assets are gained by concentra­
ting on children with all of our resources and concentrating 
on them at an early age.

Q Has there been any measurable progress as a 
result of Title I programs?

A Yes, we have seen some measurable progress. I 
would have to say that we have not seen the demonstrated 
progress that we would hope for, or that we still hope for, 
from these programs. The evidence of that is that over a 
period<f several years we have modified our approach to 
Title I services. When we began, we made an attempt to 
provide services to all eligible children at every level, 
grades 1 through 12, and we found that this broad, large 
number made it difficult to provide sufficient impact to be 
effective. So we have modified our programs on a number of 
occasions and are now—  but we are providing some services

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to older children - the greatest concentration is on younger 
children. We feel and the evidence indiates that we can 
make the greatest impact - the examples would be our pre­
school and special first grade programs, which are the 
largest parts of this total project.

Q W°Uld y0U descrlbe for us, please, your approach 
to curriculum in the elementary schools?

A We have our general elementary curriculum is 
pretty uniform, it follows the state pattern pretty 
carefully, and the basic organization of the elementary 
school is that of what we call a self-contained classroom, 
where one teacher and one group of 25 to 30 children spend 

eir entire day together, and that teacher teaches all of 
the subjects to those children with some assistance from a 
specialist in music and a librarian. That is the general 
program in the elementary school.

0 Have there been any innovations developed in that 
program?

A There have been a number of__
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I»d like to object

again for the same reason I previously stated.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I note here - with

reference to the other objection - that in paragraph 
10(d) the plaintiffs allege the school lunch program is 
operated on a discriminatory basis, both as to quantity

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O f f u  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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-1001-

and quality, and in (j), the special school - which I 
presume he is talking about - are operated by the 
defendant and maintained in a way to favor white 
students. Now, there are many allegations here and
it seems to me that this testimony is pertinent to 
those allegations.

MK. CHAMBERS: I ’d like to go back to the motion
for preliminary injunction that we filed, Your Honor, 
and if the Court were to require that these schools be 
integrated, many of the allegations that we made in 
the complaint perhaps would not be-- would become mute, 
because the schools would then be Integrated as we 
contend they should be, and we wouldn’t be talking 
about some of the things we’re talking about now. The 
testimony now does nothing but further delay what the 
plaintiffs are entitled to receive, and that is a 
completely desegregated school system.

MR. GARROU: Your Honor, Dr. Larsen testified at
length on Friday on the curriculum at the various 
schools.

THE COURT: That was the plaintiffs' evidence,
and that was the purpose of Dr. Larsen being here. 
Overruled. I realize that we are taking a lot of time 
on this, but it was brought here and prior to the usual 
discovery that you lawyers very well do on both sides,

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  &  a s s o c i a t e s

O f f i c i a l  C q u r t  R f p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 
P h o n e  7 6 s . n f i i s



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-1002-

and it is here taking what you usually take by way of 
discovery. But I have no other choice other than to 
get into it. So overrule the objection. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) I believe you were describing 

the innovations in the curriculum in the elementary schools, 
Mr. Sarbaugh.

A There are a lot of departures from this basic 
pattern, fir. Garrou. Some of them I really wouldn't call 
innovations. There are departures; there's nothing new 
about many of them. But each elementary school has the 
opportunity, as its principal and faculty study the needs 
of the children in that school, to propose a departure in 
organization which they feel will better meet the needs of 
those children. It may be a special arrangement of grouping 
for reading instruction - this is a case in many schools.
So there is that kind of departure in the way of innovation. 
The tutorial program which I mentioned earlier at Lowrance 
School as being exemplary is - I would say is one of our 
most significant innovations and is really a national model, 
I would say. And then the program which I mentioned 
earlier, the comprehensive school improvement project at 
Fairview, is probably our next most significant innovation 
at the elementary level.

0 What types or forms of ability grouping do you 
maintain in the elementary schools?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C.



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A The elementary school is largely not grouped on 
the basis of ability, but in these departures that I 
mentioned, some schools will group their children for read­
ing instruction on the basis of their reading achievement, 
and in some instances they will group children on the basis 
of their achievement level in arithmetic, and in a few 
instances there are some classes where the students are 
grouped on the basis of ability for all of their instruction. 
This would be an unusual situation.

U Now, would you describe your form of curriculum 
in the junior high schools?

A The junior high school program includes—  it's 
a transitional type program from the elementary, where the 
child basically has one teacher all day, to the high school 
where he has a different teacher every hour. So we have 
some of both in the junior high. There is a long period of 
what we call the block of time, about half of the child's 
day is spent with one teacher in social studies and language 
arts. The other half in individual subjects, some of which 
are in academic areas and some of which are in areas of 
special interest and exploration.

Q Is that same form then followed throughout the 
system, Mr. Sarbaugh?

A Yes, it is, Mr. Garrou. Our junior high school 
program is more nearly uniform, I would say, than either the

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  &  A S S O C I A T E S

O F f  l( I A l C o u n t  R f p o r i e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N  C .



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1004-

elementary or the senior high.
Q Now, describe your form of curriculum in the 

high schools.
A We have in the senior high school a system-wide 

course of study. All courses are developed in writing - 
that is the content of them, the scope and sequence of them, 
and they are offered in the high school. As I believe Dr. 
Larsen testified on Friday, all courses that are available 
are initially offered in all high schools; students then 
make their selections. And the high school program generally 
has six teaching periods a day, and a student will take 
four or five different courses for approximately one hour 
each, and he will have usually one hour of supervised 
study.

Q Now, how is it determined which courses will be 
offered as opposed to given?

A In the senior high schools?
Q Correct.
A It is determined after a preliminary student 

registration, which indicates pupil interest.
Q Let's go back. I'm talking about the original 

list of courses that are given to each student. How is it 
determined what courses will appear on the list?

A Oh, on the list of offerings?
Q Yes.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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-1005-

A Generally nearly every course that we have 
available is initially listed. In the individual school, 
the principal and counsellors and faculty may have knowledge 
that there are certain courses in which there is consistently 
no pupil interest, and they may not include these. But by 
and large, everything that is in our course of study is 
offered initially in every high school.

Q Now, how is it determined whether or not the 
course will be given as opposed to offered?

A That would be determined by the demand, the 
student demand, after a preliminary registration, at which 
time students express their interest in course offerings for 
the following year. This is done in the early spring.

r> Now, suppose a student in a particular high school
expressed an interest by marking this form and that it was 
later determined that it was not going to be given in that 
school. Would there be any way for him to take the course?

A If the course were not going to be offered In his 
school, he would be contacted to make an alternative choice. 
One of those choices could be to request reassignment to a 
school in which the course were offered. This is done 
sometimes when a student has a course that he is particularly 
interested in and there is a demand enough at a school.

Q Is it possible to take that course in that school 
without transferring to that school?

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8, A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C
c c  n c i A



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A I t ' s  p o s s ib le ;  i t ' s  p r e t t y  d i f f i c u l t  to  ta k e  one

course in another school, because it is not always con­
venient and it doesn't always fit the schedule, the time 
schedule. The time schedule doesn't always fit. It is 
possible, and if it can be arranged in the time schedule, 
it can be done, and it has occurred in some instances.

Q But the easier method is for them to transfer to 
the school?

A The easier method would be to transfer to the 
school on a full-time basis.

Q Now, you said he was contacted. Who contacts him?
A This would be the function of the guidance depart­

ment. At the time that students are—  that the preliminary 
registration is completed, any questions that have developed, 
any courses that are not to be offered, or any student who 
has made an error in his registration, would be individually 
contacted and the matter would be discussed with him, 
usually by a member of the guidance staff, sometimes by a 
homeroom or a classroom teacher, sometimes by the principal.

Q Would you describe the vocational program in the 
high schools?

A Yes, sir. We have what we feel is a somewhat 
limited program in vocational education, and this has been 
a matter of great concern to our Board of Education and 
staff. What program we have, I would describe as consisting

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O r r n  i a l  C o u r t  R f p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E
VAS CT AI C A I C t i



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1007

Of two kinds of programs - one what we call the cooperative 
program, and these students come to school part of the day 
and spend part of the day on Jobs, working under supervision, 
We have programs of this type in the area of distribution, 
a program referred to as distributive education. And we 
have a similar kind of program, a work-study program, in 
the industrial area, where a student is placed in a skilled 
trade area. So that is one phase of the vocational program.
In addition to that, we have a very limited trade preparatory 
program, where all of the work is done in the school in a 
vocational laboratory. We have such things as auto mechanics, 
brick masonry, machine shop, painting and decorating, and 
tailoring, in that category. And there is one other 
cooperative program that I failed to mention, a cooperative 
business education program, which is new in this state, 
relatively new, in which we have only a small program, I 
believe in two schools.

0 Now, which high schools contain these vocational
programs?

A There are some vocational programs in every high 
school. They are not all the same in each high school.
Every high school has one or more of the cooperative pro­
grams. The trade preparatory programs are concentrated in 
two schools; one of them - the machine shop program - is at 
Reynolds High School, and the other four - auto mechanics,

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R f p o r t f r s  

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masonry, painting and decorating and tailoring - are at 
Atkins High School.

Q Do you have any white students taking these
programs at Atkins?

A Yes. These programs both at Atkins and at 
Reynolds are available to students from all high schools, 
and each high school has a quota which it is allowed, based 
on the size of the school. There are some white students 
in the program; however it is predominantly a Negro enroll­
ment.

Q Nov/, what agency or agencies accredit your high 
schools?

A Our high schools are accredited by the Southern 
Association of Schools and Colleges, which is one of 
several regional agencies that accredit both public and 
private secondary and elementary schools and colleges and 
universities, and ours is known as the Southern Association.

Q Now, is the accreditation from the Southern 
Association always unqualified?

A There are degrees of accreditation. There is 
full accreditation, which we would say gives the school a 
clean bill of health, a clear accreditation. And then there 
are several degrees in which deficiencies are noted. They 
may accredit the school and point out certain weaknesses; 
they may accredit the school and say that it is being given

w.

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O f f k  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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a warning to correct these deficiencies - that's a little 
more serious; the school may be on probation, and that's 
still a more serious situation; and finally the school
could be dropped from membership.

Are there any fully accredited high schools in 
the system?

A We have not had our accreditation reports for 
the current year, Mr. Garrou. For last year, there was 
only one accredited, fully accredited high school, and 
that was Atkins High School. All the others had some 
degree of deficiency - a warning or some kind of deficiency.

Q How do you allocate library books to your schools?
A We allocate funds to the school from our budget 

on a pupil basis, and after that is done if additional 
funds are available, they are allocated to schools which 
have the greatest need, which have the smallest ratio of 
books per pupil.

THE COURT: Before you get on with that subject,
what is the most common reason, if there is one, that 
the schools in the system are not fully accredited?

THE WITNESS: I would say two, Your Honor. One
is facilities, overcrowded conditions, substandard 
facilities, would be one, and the certification and 
training of the teachers would be the other. A teacher 
might be teaching in an area out of her major field of

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concentration, or she might have too many pupils, and 
tliose would be the two primary reasons.

THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) What would be the reasons, Mr.

Sarbaugh, that one school would have fewer library books
than another school?

A The age of the school would be the biggest single 
thing, Mr. Garrou. As the school years pass, the school 
builds its library collection and increases it. That would 
be the biggest single reason. And another thing would be 
any major and substantial influx of students, would reduce 
the ratio of books per pupil.

Q I believe you heard Dr. Larsen's testimony on 
Friday and heard him describe his approach, is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, considering his approach, are there any
administrative problems that would result, that would occur 
if this approach were implemented during the school year?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Answer it; are there any administra­

tive problems that would be in connection with Dr. 
Larsen's proposal of the schools.

MF(. CHAMBERS: I call the Court's attention to
the recent Alexander case and the Carter case. The 
Court doesn't consider administrative difficulties at

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S
Offii i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C
Pm.



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this - the problem is whether the school board has
done what it is supposed to do.

THE COURT: Overruled. Answer that; that can be
a yes or no answer.
A I'm not sure of the question, Mr. Garrou.

THE COURT: Let me ask it; see if this is satis­
factory. I think his question is if you put into 
effect what Dr. Larsen recommends in this school 
system, would there be any administrative problems.
Is that right, Mr. Garrou?

MR. GARROU: Yes, sir.
A There would be considerable administrative 

problems and instructional problems as well.
THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel for

the plaintiff objects to the question. All right; 
go ahead.

Q (By Mr. Garrou) Would you describe some of these
problems for us, please?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A You are asking for problems that would arise from 
immediate Implementation of his plan or at any time?

Q I am asking right now, for problems that would 
arise from implementation during the school year.

A During the school year. The biggest of a number

G R A H A M  E R L A C . H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

Phone 765 0636



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of serious problems that I would see in the movement of 
children during the school year would be that very certainly 
gaps in learning would occur. Teachers move at different 
paces as they teach; there are different groups; they often 
follow a different sequence in many of their courses; and 
students would almost certainly in many instances miss 
completely some whole segment of study that had been already 
treated in the school they were coming to and had not as 
yet been dealt with in the school they were leaving. So I 
would say that this would be the single greatest problem.
In many schools, especially in the elementary schools, as 
I have described the ways in which they are differently 
organized for instruction in reading and mathematics, 
acquainting the students with the new arrangement and 
finding where he belongs, where his appropriate placement
was, in a new group would be a substantial and time-consuminf
problem.

THL COURT: I don't understand what you mean by
finding his placement. You mean in his class of 25 or
30?

THE WITNESS: In the group. If in a class of 25
or 30, the students were grouped for reading instruc­
tion on the basis of their achievement level, determin­
ing which of those ability groups he fitted into would 
be some problem and would take time. It could be done;

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A S H E  D R I V E  

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it would take time. In the secondary schools - this 
would be most true in senior high; it would be true 
to a lesser degree in Junior high schools. Students, 
it would seem, would find themselves reassigned to 
schools where the courses they were taking were not 
available, and this could be a substantial problem.
It would be particularly a problem for seniors, and - 
weil, for any student, but most aggravated for those 
who are in the twelfth grade. It seems to me that 
any major movement of pupils in mid-year might well 
caH  f°r some further teacher reassignments beyond 
the ones that we are just experiencing today.
Q U y  Mr. Garrou) What would be the reason for

that?

A Well, for an example, it's very likely that more 
students taking French, we will say, might be reassigned to 
a new school than could be accommodated with the existing 
staff, and there would be some who were taking a different 
language might be transferred away, so there would likely 
be a need for some shifting of teachers to accommodate the 
requirements as best they could be accommodated. And then 
ofoourse our teachers and students are beginning to 
experience disruptive adjustment period today, and pupil 
assignment in the middle of a semester would result for 
many, many children in still another pupil-teacher adjustment

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O r r i t i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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d u r in g  th e  m id d le  o f  th e  n e x t  sem este r

Q Would there be any likelihood of individual 
students having difficulties in graduating or getting into 
a college?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A It is conceivable that there would be difficulty.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, that answer is entirely

speculative, and I move that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Motion denied. Go ahead.

A On two counts it would seem that this could be a 
possibility. First, that the student would be unable to 
complete a course in progress - that’s a possibility.
Second, that the marginal student who is having difficulty 
anyway, this might be the thing that would cause him to fail 
to successfully complete the course.

THE COURT: Well, it is very speculative about
that.

THE WITNESS: It is, yes, sir.
MR. GARROU: Your Honor, I ’d like to continue

this line with one or two more questions.
THE COURT: That is highly speculative, that part 

of it - I ’m leaving it in.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) You have closed schools before

in the consolidated high schools?

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C

PHONE:  7 6 5  0 6 3 6



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A Yes.
Q Do you have any experiences resulting in those 

actions that would help you make a Judgment as to whether 
or not more students would or would not drop out - as to 
whether or not more students would drop out or would fail
to graduate?

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to that on
the some grounds, that that, too, is clearly specula­
tive. There's no indication in the record whether 
the closing of those schools had any correlation to 
what we have, and the proposal that the plaintiffs 
are making here. Secondly—

THE COURT: I sustain the objection. As you
gentlemen know, in these cases in times past when we 
heard them, much evidence had been introduced that 
would not be in the ordinary suit allowed, and I am 
pretty liberal with letting it in, but I don’t believe 
I'll let you follow that line, Mr. Garrou.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, would there be any problems 

in the area of extra-curricular activities that would result 
from mid-year reassignment of pupils?

A There likely would be. Each school has its 
unique student activity program, of clubs and special 
interest activities, and to a large extent the same kind of 
problems that would arise with respect to courses - that is

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C
Punuc. Tfit:



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the class work - might well occur in terms of activities.
Q Back to the class work aspect of it a minute, Mr.

Sarbaugh, what system of grading and reporting would you 
use after a mid-year assignment - reassignment?

A If you reassign children in the middle of a grading 
period, you would have two teachers responsible for the 
evaluation of their work, theirassessment of their grade, 
and that would be difficult. It would require the two 
teachers to get together to arrive, I suppose, at a grade 
for that particular grading period. This was one of the 
reasons - not one of the major reasons - but certainly was 
a reason why the Board of Education chose to make its 
faculty reassignments at the end of a semester, at the end 
of a break in the academic year and at the end of a grading 
period.

Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, in your opinion, would there be 
any psychological effect on students resulting from a mid­
year reassignment?

MTi. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't know what

qualifications Mr. Sarbaugh has to give an opinion as 
to psychology. They haven't qualified him as an
expert.

THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, Mr. Chambers, was not

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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-10]

qualified as an expert, but he had been in the field 
of education for many years. And as you will recall 
in these cases, we have allowed educators for the 
plaintiffs to give opinions debatable about whether 
ordinarily he could or not, X can’t make a difference 
in this case. It's in the record — how long have you 
been in education?

THE WITNESS: This is my twenty-first year.
THE COURT: Have you ever done anything else in

your gainful adult life?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Overruled; go ahead.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I ’d like to indicate

for the record another basis, that this question is 
irrelevant also.

THE COURT: All right. Let the record so show.
All right; you may go ahead.
A it would seem to me that a mid-semester reassign­

ment of pupils would have some harmful effects. I think on 
normal children these effects would be perhaps short-lived 
and not terribly serious, but I think there would be some 
especially with young children who have a great sense of 
security, a strong sense of security and attachment to their 
teacher, to their classroom, to their school routine, and 
their routine is a great deal of their security that they

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feel, particularly with very young children. And then the 
other group that I feel would have - from my experience - 
most likely have some that would be affected, would be the 
pre-teen and early adolescent age group, which is at best a 
period of heightened emotion and a period when the crowd, 
or the peer group, is of the ultimate importance.

Q Mr. Sarbaugh, I show you a document marked 
Defendants’ Exhibit 34, and I ask you what that is?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 34 
for identification.)

A This is a research project done by the Research 
Department of our school system, dealing with the reading 
achievement of Negro 6th grade pupils in white schools in 
1967- 68.

Q Have you got a copy of that with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, was this document, Exhibit 34, prepared under

your supervision?
A Yes, sir, it was.
0 And who prepared it?
A Dr. James Sifford, our director of research.
0 What was the purpose of having it prepared?
A The purpose was to compare these—  comparison of 

achievement, to help us to begin to try to answer the 
question of whether or not achievement on the part of Negro

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children would be enhanced in an integrated school situation 
•i And what was the conclusion of the report?
A Mr. Garrou, this research and all of the other

that we have done, and nearly every other piece of research 
in education, has some substantial limitations, and I want 
to say for the record that that is the case, before I go 
into this. Any piece of educational research is valid for 
the children that are involved at the time it was done and 
is limited by the instrument that is used to measure. So
I want to make sure that that is clear. And then I would
say—

MR. CHAMBER: Your Honor, I'd like to object to
the document and testimony with respect to it.

THE COURT: Overruled.
A That this particular study, we feel the results 

of it are certainly inconclusive, but there are two or 
three findings which we at least have taken note of. That's 
about the best way I know how to put it.

Q Mr- Garrou) And what are those findings?
A First that a Negro student who has spent at least 

two years in a predominantly white school achieves - in the 
study - achieved at about the same level as he would have 
if he remained in a predominantly Negro school.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I submit that this
testimony and this document is clearly irrelevant to

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the proceeding. We are—  that problem has already 
been determined. I don't see whether kids achieving 
at a higher level in any of the schools can have any 
relevance to this case.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I haven’t had an oppor­
tunity to go through sixty-odd exhibits that you all 
introduced, but I am sure that I will find in there 
much of this very, very same thing.

MR. CHAMBERS: I submit that you will not, Your
Honor. The only thing we have in those exhibits are 
documents about statistics, basically. Now we're 
talking about what relevance a black kid going to a 
white school achieving is going to have in this pro­
ceeding. I don't see where that has any relevance.

THE COURT: I don't rightly recall about Dr.
Larsen, whether it was brought out on direct or whether 
it was brought out on cross examination, but this is 
exactly what was talked about and so forth practically 
all day Friday, and it was unobjected to and so forth. 
What do you say, Mr. Womble? This is taking an inordi­
nate long time to hear this matter, and as you lawyers 
know, these matters are usually explored in discovery, 
and you're willing to go at it, but a motion was made 
here and I felt that I should hear it. I changed my 
schedules around so that I could hear it, and I am

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doing the best I can to hear it thoroughly and im­
partially, and in all of these cases there las always 
gone in an unusual amount of incompetent testimony on 
both sides. I have seen books go in - they will hand 
him the book and say "What educator wrote this”, and 
that's been introduced for me to read. We all know 
that that violates any rule of evidence. Mr. Womble, 
do you have something?

MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I was going to point out
what the Court just mentioned with reference to Dr. 
Larsen, and I was also going to point out that it is 
not our purpose or intention to relitigate Brown. It 
seems to us that one of the very serious questions in 
this case is whether or not the Winston-Salem/Forsyth 
County Board of Education is operating a unitary school 
system, and we are of the opinion and believe that the 
determination of the unitary school system is not 
solely a matter of numbers, but it is the kind of 
system that you operate - it is the educational offering 
you give throughout the system, and it is in some 
measure indicated by the results you achieve.

Now, for example on this, the fact that the tests 
indicated that the child who spent two years in a pre­
dominantly white school in this community achieved at 
about the same level as if he had remained in the

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predominantly or all black school, we say is an indica­
tion that this school system is across the board doing 
the best it can to offer a uniform educational program 
that is designed to serve the needs of the child as 
best the system can, and that the only exceptions, 
really, that are made in uniformity are in the directior 
of helping a child who needs help more than someone 
else, and that is not a matter of race, it's a matter 
of operating in a sound educational manner a public 
school system that is in a true sense a unitary system 
and not a dual system.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would like to leave
my objection, and before the Court cares to dispose of 
it, I think that the evidence is irrelevant and I'd 
Just like to note the objection for the record.

THE COURT: Overruled. Let's get on through this
highly controversial part of it as quickly as we can.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, I show you Defendants' 

Exhibit 35, Mr. Sarbaugh, and I ask you what that is?
(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants* Exhibit No. 35 
for identification.)

A This is an additional research project, a later 
one than the one I have just referred to, and it is a study 
of test scores and academic marks made by Negro elementary 
pupils who were enrolled in the predominantly white school

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during 1968-69 school year.
0 Was that study made under your supervision?
A Yes, sir, it was.
Q And what was the conclusion of the study?
A Well, again—

MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to note the same objection,
Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that
counsel for the plaintiffs objects. Overruled.
A I think that I would have to say in summary of 

the conclusion, Mr. Garrou, that the conclusions are again 
inconclusive tc some extent. For the most part, this 
research shows no significant difference in the achievement 
of Negro elementary pupils in predominantly white schools 
than what their achievement would have been had they 
remained in Negro schools. There is in this study an 
exception to that in the area of arithmetic, and the Negro 
youngsters in the predominantly white schools did make a 
higher level of performance in arithmetic than was the 
average for Negro students in the predominantly Negro school! 
So that would be the one conclusion, and then the other 
would be that Negro children, when they transfer to pre­
dominantly white schools, make poorer academic marks - they 
make fewer A, B's and C's and more D's and F’s.

MR. GARROU: At this time, Your Honor, we'd like

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to offer into evidence Defendants' Exhibits 32, 33, 3 4

and 35.

THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendants'
Exhibits 33 through 35 inclusive are received into the 
evidence; that the plaintiffs object and except to 
this ruling by the Court.

MR. GARROU: And 32, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That's 32, 33, 34, 35 are

received into the evidence.
MR. CHAMBERS: We object, Your Honor, to Exhibits

34 and 35.
THE COURT: Amend the record to show counsel•s

objection to Defendants' Exhibits 34 and 3 5 .
(The documents above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bits Nos. 32 through 3 5  inclusive 
for identification, were received in evidence.)

MR. GARROU: That's all we have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers.

CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Sarbaugh, how long have

you been in the school system?
A I'm sorry?
Q How long have you been in the school system?
A This is my twenty-first year.
Q Your job title now is associate superintendent?

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A Associate superintendent.
Q I show you some of the documents that were attached

to interrogatories that were filed by the School Board - 
the second set of answers to interrogatories - and ask you 
if you have seen those documents before.

A I have not seen these documents exactly, but I 
have seen similar documents.

Q Would you look at the one pertaining to students?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you go through that document and tell us 

how many of the elementary school systems are entirely
Negro?

A All right, sir. Do you want me to name them, or
just by numbers?

Q Name them, if you don't mind.
A Brown Elementary, Carver Crest—

THE COURT: Now, are you naming all elementary
together?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, Your Honor. These are
grouped that way. There will be elementary and then 
junior, I believe. Yes, sir. These are elementary
schools.

THE COURT: All right.
A Diggs, Fairview, 14th Street, Kimberly Park,

Mebane, North Elementary, Skyland - and those are the

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elementary schools.
Q Now, would you name the schools that are entirely

white elementary schools?
A Bolton, Children's Home, Griffith, Moore, Sherwood

Forest, South Fork - those are the elementary schools that 
are all white.

Q Now, would you tell the Court whether those 
schools that you have Just named have been either all black 
or all white since you have been in this school system?

A Many of these schools in the former city system, 
since my association prior to '63 was with the county, I 
can't really speak for positively, Mr. Chambers.

Q Since the merger of the school system?
A Since the merger I think I can. I believe that

since 1963, with possible exception of North Elementary, 
there has been no change in either group of these schools.

Q Why did you think there would be some exception 
with North Elementary?

A It was at about that time that there were some 
residential changes in that area, in North Elementary, 
which had been a predominantly or all white elementary 
school, has changed and is now an all black school, and it 
was at about that time, I believe, Just before the merger 
that this occurred.

Q Now, I believe that Lowrance Elementary School is

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WINSTON SALEM. N C

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a school that changed from all white to all black, or 
predominantly black?

A Yes. At the time of the merger of the two school
systems, I believe it was all or certainly predominantly a 
white schools.

Q And now?
A Now it is predominantly a Negro school.
Q Would you go through and name the all black Junior

high schools?
A Anderson, Carver, Kennedy, Paisley, are the all 

black Junior high schools.
Q I believe that Hanes has about ten white students

out of a total of about 540 students?
A That's about correct, yes, sir.
Q Would you name the all white Junior high schools?
A Children's Home, Griffith; they appear to be the 

only all white.
Q Would you name the all black senior high schools?
A Anderson, Atkins, Carver.
Q Would you name the all white senior high schools?
A I believe there is none that is all white.
Q Now, a substantial number of the schools that

have some racial mix have less than ten percent, is that 
correct?

A That's correct, yes.

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Q And that’s all shown in that exhibit that you have
there in your hand?

A It is shown by number, yes.
Q I show you also a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 26,

and I ask if you have seen this document before?
A Yes, sir, I've seen this.
0 In fact that document shows the racial composition

of the schools as of December 1969?
A That's correct.
Q And that document shows that the schools which 

you have named as being all white or all black are still 
all white or all black, is that correct?

A That is correct.
Q And the schools that have been predominantly

white or predominantly black are still predominantly white_
In other words, you haven't had any substantial change in 
the racial composition of the schools among students?

A Certainly not with respect to those schools that 
are all white and all black, no, we have not.

What about those that have been predominantly 
white or predominantly black?

A There has been some increase in pupil desegrega­
tion in some of those schools.

Q Would you point those out?
A Are you asking me since that report and this one?

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-1029

I misunderstood you.

« Sine® this voyovt,

A 1 would say that there was no substantial change;
I misunderstood your question.

Q As I recall, you testified about some integration 
of teachers taking place at the beginning—  when was it? 
Monday?

A Yes.

Q Did you have anything to do with the reassignment
of teachers?

A Not anything—  well, yes, I had something to do 
with the actual reassignment of them.

Q Do y°u th© present racial composition of the
faculties at each school in the system as of today?

A I do not know the exact figures school by school
as of today.

Q Do you know who would have that information?
A I would think that the superintendent would have

that.

All right. Do you know, Mr. Sarbaugh, of any plan
presently that the School Board has to integrate all of the 
cChools in the system?

A I do not.

Q Mow, do you recall back in 1965 some consideration 
)y HEW of the North Carolina Department of Instruction on

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the use of Title I f u n d s  i n  i n t e g r a t i o n  o f  t h e  s c h o o l s ?

A N o , s i r .

Q Do you recall the ten percent r u l e  a b o u t  ESEA 
funds would not be cut off by the fact t h a t  o n e  o r  tw o  

students transferred to a school that was n o t  q u a l i f i e d ?

A I  know that funds a r e  n o t  c u t  o f f  f o r  c h i l d r e n  

who transfer out of the T i t l e  I a r e a ,  y e s .

0 I'll a s k  you n o w , M r. S a r b a u g h ,  i s n ’ t  i t  a f a c t  

that either in 1 9 6 5 - 6 6  o r  ' 6 7 ,  HEW h a s  a d o p t e d  a  r e g u l a t i o n  

to the effect t h a t  t h e  mere fact t h a t  b l a c k  s t u d e n t s  w ho  

qualify for ESEA f u n d s  t r a n s f e r r e d  t o  p r e d o m i n a n t l y  w h i t e  

schools, that w o u ld  n o t  c u t  o f f  t h e  f u n d s  o f  t h e s e  s t u d e n t s ?

A T h a t ' s  c o r r e c t ,  y e s .

Q As I u n d e r s t a n d  y o u r  t e s t i m o n y ,  y o u  a r e  s a y i n g  

that because these s t u d e n t s  a r e  t h e r e  a n d  a r e  p a r t i c i p a t i n g  

in ESEA programs, it w o u ld  b e  b e s t  n o t  t o  i n t e g r a t e  a n d  

leave the students there s o  t h a t  t h e y  c o u l d  c o n t i n u e  t o  

receive those funds. Is t h a t  w h a t  y o u ' r e  s a y i n g ?

MR. GARROU: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A I  don't b e l i e v e  that that's w h a t  I  s a i d ,  M r.

Chambers.
Q Could you e x p l a i n  i t ?

A I'll try. I n  a n s w e r  t o  t h e  q u e s t i o n ,  I  s a i d  

t h a t  i t  would be d i f f i c u l t  t o  c o n t i n u e  t h e  p r o g r a m s  t h a t

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are now being carried on effectively if they were spread to 
all schools in the system.

Q Let's talk about how you would say you would 
qualify schools. Would you tell the Court the federal and 
state rule now qualifying schools for ESEA funds, Title I?

A To the best of my ability. As I understand it, 
a school is qualified if it is in a residential area where 
the poverty concentration exceeds that of the community at 
large.

Q Is it based on the residential area, or the 
number of students who are in the school whose parents earn
less than $3,000.00 a year?

A It is based—  it has nothing to do with the school
pei' se.

Q Does it have anything to do with the residential
area?

A Yes.
Q Do you know that regulation you are talking about? 
A Well, the best I know is what I ’ve just told you.
Q Did you receive in 1968 and in 1969 a regulation 

from the State Department of Public Instruction, Title I 
office, regarding how schools qualified for ESEA funds?

A I don't recall directly. I'm sure if one was 
sent, we did receive it.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, if you are at a point

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where you need to look up some information—  we usually 
take a morning recess at about this time; would it be
helpful to take it now?

MK. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
11LL COURT: All right, Mr. Sarbaugh, you may

come down for the moment.
(A brief recess was taken.)

THE COURT: Mr. Sarbaugh, will you come back to
the stand, please?
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Sarbaugh, I»ll ask you 

again if the basis for determining the eligibility of 
schools for ESEA funds is not to count the number of child­
ren in a school whose parents earn less than a set minimum
per year?

A My understanding is that it is not the basis.
The procedure is not to count the children in the school, 
but to identify the economic poverty concentration in the 
geographic area, and that the school so located in that
area then becomes eligible.

Q How do you determine the area?
A I believe that was initially done by census tract, 

Mr. Chambers, if my memory is right.
0 You're not positive of that?
A I'm not positive. That was done in 1965, and 

I'm not positive.

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Q Would you have records in your office that shows 
the basis for determining the area?

A Yes, I would have, because at the time we made 
application we were required to submit this information.

Q By census tract?
A That's my memory on it.
Q Well, you haven't considered, have you, how the 

iesults of the students below the poverty area would be 
in the various schools to be integrated?

A I'm not sure I understand you.
0 I understood your testimony a moment ago to be 

that if you integrate the schools, you would have some 
difficulty in carrying out some of the programs as you now 
operate?

A I was saying that if we attempted to disperse the 
Title J programs to all schools, that it would be difficult
to administer them.

Q You're not considering then integrating the 
schools and carrying on the Title I program?

A For whatever we might disperse them.
0 What condition would you be talking about in 

dispersing the Title I programs for all schools?
A To follow eligible children.
Q Now, have you considered how many eligible 

children will be going to each school?

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A No.
t Ec what you are saying is highly speculative of 

what effect it would have on the existing program?
A Yes, the effect would depend upon the pupil assign-

plan.
q  At the present, you do not know what that assign­

ment would be?
A I do not.
Q I think you testified you had eleven schools that 

presently qualify as Title I schools?
A Eleven elementary schools, yes, sir.
Q Is it true that Title I funds are to be used to

supplement existing programs?
A Yes.
0 I understood you to say that you had a program 

under Title I called the pupil personnel services program?
A Yes.
Q How is the program used to supplement existing

programs?
A It is used by increasing the concentration of

social workers and nurses in the Title I area beyond the 
number that are provided through local funds.

q Would these five social workers in the other 49 
elementary schools be paid for by Title I money?

A No, they are not paid for with Title I money.

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Q How a re  th e y  p a id  fo r ?

A They are paid for out of the county generally,
the expense budget.

Q Do you have any of the eleven social workers in 
the Title I paid for by local money?

A No, they're all paid for with Title I money.
Q So you supplement some of the non-qualifying 

schools with local money and then the qualifying schools 
you use only Title I money for this pupil personnel service
px'Ogram?

A Except that the director of pupil personnel 
services and the five district workers also provide services
in the Title I area.

0 What is that? I thought they were assigned to 
the 49 other schools that didn't qualify.

A Well, their major duties are in the 49 other 
schools, but they provide services also in the Title I area.

Q Do you have anyone paid for by local funds in - 
social workers, in any of the qualifying eleven elementary 
schools?

A Not on a full-time, no.
Q Or assigned there as a major part of their work?
A Nor assigned there as a major part of their work.
Q You didn't testify about a predominantly white

school that has some special program - Parkview, I believe

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it is?
A Forest Park.
Q Parkview, isn't it?
A No, sir, we don't have a Parkview school.

THE COURT: Parkland?
A Parkland?
Q Parkland.
A A high school.
Q Did you have a special program there?
A Yes, we do. In fact, we have several special

programs at the senior high school level. I didn't testify 
about any of those, I believe.

0 That’s an all white school or predominantly white 
school?

A Except—  yes, they are all in predominantly white
high schools.

Q Do they qualify for Title I money?
A No.
Q Y/here do you get the money?
A Let me correct that. There is some limited Title

I money in one of those schools - that is Reynolds High
Dchool.

Q Is that because of some Negroes that attend
Reynolds High School?

A That's correct.

g r a h a m  F . RL A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O l F K  I A L COUHI  RFPOHTF.HS 

A S H E  D R I V E

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In fact, if you had Negroes attending all of theU
senior high schools, you probably would have more of the 
senior high schools qualify, would you not?

A Any school in which an eligible child attends—
Q Would qualify?
A Qualifies for services to that child.
Q Looking at your food services, do you have free 

lunches in all of the elementary, junior high, and senior
high schools?

A We have free lunches available on the basis of
need in all schools.

Q Do you operate it in all of the schools in the
system?

A Yes. It's operated in all schools.
Q Do you have any differences in your lunch program 

for the Negro and the white schools, actual differences?
A We have a difference in lunches with respect to

the special assistance lunch program which I described 
earlier.

Q Are those lunches available only in Negro schools? 
Mil. GARROU: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A They are available only in Negro schools.
Q I think you testified to that in deposition, 

didn’t you, Mr. Darbaugh, that those were available only in

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the Negro Schools?
A Mr. Chambers, I personally perhaps did not 

testify to that, because that would be an area which 
another staff member might have more competence.

Q At least that is a fact, is it not?
A To my knowledge, that’s a fact.
0 Do you know why it’s limited only to Negro

schools?
A I do not.
Q Do you not have an opinion that it serves as a 

deterrent to Negro students transferring because they 
wouldn't have these services available in a predominantly 
white school?

A I would doubt that that would be a deterrent.
0 At present you wouldn't have any program available 

at the white school if the Negro student transferred?
A You would have availability of a completely free 

lunch if the child had need for it.
Q But not the lunch he is getting at the present

school?
A But not this special assistance program.
0 You didn't testify about ability groupings in 

the junior high and senior high schools; do you have it? 
A In some junior and some senior highs we do and

some we do not.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S  

OrfK ial Court Reporters 

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

Phone 765 0636



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Q T e l l  us w h ic h  ones in  th e  s e n io r  h ig h  s c h o o ls ,

where you have ability groupings.
A In the senior high schools, the ability grouping 

occurs largely on the basis of the selection of courses.
If 1 may illustrate by mathematics, a student who elects 
an advanced level course in mathematics may do so only if 
he has met the prerequisites, and to that extent that is an 
ability group. There are some - in some of the required 
courses, there are some levels, English is an example.
There are several different achievement levels of English, 
and students are grouped into the level which seems most 
appropriate for1 them. This is true in most of the senior 
high schools.

CJ Which high schools have ability grouping?
A To my knowledge, all of our high schools have

some ability grouping of this kind.
Q Now, you said there were some other ability 

groupings on the basis of course offerings?
A Yes.
U What are some of the courses which would qualify

for ability grouping?
A As I said, advanced math, and advanced courses in 

science.
U Languages?
A Possibly the advanced language courses might be.

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■1C

The student who takes the advanced levels of foreign language 
up to the third, fourth and fifth year, is college bound 
and generally has a higher degree of academic aptitude and 
therefore it's a pretty homogeneous group, I would say.

0 Is it true, Mr. Sarbaugh, that this kind of 
ability grouping takes place only in the white high school?

MFv. WOMDLE: We object to the term "white" and
"Negro". The evidence shows what the composition of
the schools is.

THE COURT: I will sort that out when I look
through this. Overruled.
A It is not true that grouping occurs only in the 

predominantly white high school.
Q On the basis of course offerings, do you mean?
A On either basis.
Q Which Negro high school has ability groupings on

the basis of course offerings?
A All of them would.
0 Atkins has?
A Yes.
0 You have seen the answers to interrogatories 

prepared by the School Board in this case, have you not, 
dealing with course offerings?

A I have seen the answers to interrogatories which
1 submitted.

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Q Did you see your answer to interrogatory seven?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the senior high schools there. 

Tell the Court which ability grouping Atkins High School 
has on the basis of the courses offered.

A On the basis of course offerings, Journalism II 
would be the first one I come to. Remedial math.

0 Is that ability grouping?
A Yes.
U Advanced ability grouping?
A On the other extreme.

THE COURT: You said journalism and what?
THE WITNESS: Journalism II and remedial math.

That would be for students who had difficulty in 
mathematics and who were not ready for a general 
mathematics course. They would be grouped together. 
Algebra II, intermediate algebra and trigonometry, 
fourth-year math, fifth-year math is listed here - 
no, I'm sorry, that's geometry. Geometry would be one. 
Chemistry, physics.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Aren't those basic courses?
A Those are courses in which a substantial degree 

of ability is required for participation and success. The 
student who takes those courses - except for the remedial 
math - would have demonstrated a high degree of academic

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competence, and therefore would be in an ability or homo­
geneous group.

0 Have you seen the basic curricula required by the 
State Department of Instruction?

A Yes.
0 Isn't it true that the courses that you've Just 

named, with the exception of remedial math and Journalism, 
are required courses by the State Department?

A No, they're not required courses. They are
state courses; they're not required.

Q The state does not require that unit for graduatior 
from high school?

A The state requires none of the courses that I have
listed for graduation.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would Just like to
call the Court's attention at this Juncture, in connec­
tion with this testimony, to the exhibits that have 
been introduced by the plaintiff, answers to interro­
gatories of the State Board of Education.

THE COURT: Can you help me? You can do that
later if you wish. The particular—  do you have a list 
of the exhibits?

MR. CHAMBERS: It is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 50; it is
the answer of the State Board of Education to plaintiffs'
interrogatory eight.

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THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Now, would you look at the list 

and tell us the ability groupings you had for Reynolds High 
School in course offerings?

A In course offerings? Dramatics II, speech II, 
advanced composition, advanced placement English—

Q Advanced placement—
A Advanced placement English. That course is

offered at Reynolds but is open for students at all schools. 
All of the advanced placement courses are offered at Reynolds 
but are open to students in all schools.

0 Can a student from North Forsyth go over to 
Reynolds just for that course?

A Yes.
Q Does that happen?
A That does happen.
0 You don't have any difficulty in scheduling of

classes like you indicated a moment ago?
A We do have a little difficulty. We schedule the 

advanced placement classes consciously with that in mind, 
at the beginning and at the end of the day, to accommodate 
students from all of the other high schools.

0 How many Negroes do you have in Reynolds in those 
advanced courses?

A I don't know the number, Mr. Chambers. There are

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some Negroes in that program, which would he predominantly
white.

Q Could you give us any other advanced course levels
A Algebra II and intermediate algebra and trig,

fourth-year math, geometry, fifth-year math, advanced place­
ment math - like the advanced placement English - chemistry, 
physics, and advanced placement biology, and advanced 
placement chemistry.

0 Now, those courses that are offered like that at
the other high schools would be classified as ability 
groupings as for courses offered?

A The effect of offering those courses would be to 
create an ability group.

0 How does one qualify for one of those courses?
A On the basis of past performance and demonstrated

interest.
0 Does he have to do anything else besides register

for the course?
A He would have to be approved for these courses 

in most instances by the counsellor, or possibly by the 
chairman of the department in which that course was offered, 
as having met the prerequisites and being qualified.

Q Now, could you give us some objective things that 
you would follow in determining whether one qualifies for 
those courses? Do you have anything written down anywhere

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-1045

to determine whether one qualifies for those courses?
A Some of the individual schools may have some 

things written down. I would say that generally it is the 
marks they have made in previous courses in that area, and 
the recommendations of the teachers that have taught them 
prior to this time.

0 Do you have anything out of your office, any 
written records, to determine whether one would qualify for
one of the courses?

A Only to the extent that there may be certain other 
course prerequisites; that is, a student would not be 
eligible to take algebra II until he had successfully 
completeled algebra I, but beyond that, none.

0 That's the thing I'm trying to get to. The only 
thing one has to do is to complete the preceding course?

A No, not actually. That is one of the requirements. 
He would then be - if there was doubt as to his ability to 
succeed in the next higher level, he would be discouraged 
from going on.

Q And the counsellor would do the discouraging?
A The counsellor or the department chairman, or 

perhaps the teacher who has taught him the previous course.
Q You don't have any written regulations to deter­

mine what standards the counsellor or whatever other person 
is making the determination is to be governed on?

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- 1046 -

A We do not, no.
Q I always conceive of ability grouping as using 

a test score to decide whether one would be in advanced 
ability grouping, or medium, or low.

A You have reference to the other type of grouping 
to which 1 referred, the grouping in the required courses.

Q You do have that in every high school in the 
system?

A Yes.
Q Now, suppose one qualifies as below standard or 

average, what course offerings would he be required to take?
A Every high school student has certain things that 

he's required to take, and then he has certain opportunities
for election.

0  Do you have a section in English for the below-
standard ability course?

A Yes, we have several different levels of English,
and that is the other kind of ability grouping with which 
you are more familiar, I believe.

Q How would that differ from English I, English II
and English III?

A Well, English I - well, let's take English II 
because English I is taught in the ninth grade in conjunction 
with the social studies block of time. English II, there 
would be several different levels of English II. There

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would be an accelerated level of English II for the students 
who were the fastest moving; there would be a basic level 
of English II for the students who had reading difficulties 
and who needed special help; and there would be then 
several groups of intermediate levels, as many as - in our 
senior high school program, there are five different levels 
in some of these courses, ranging from special education 
to advanced placement.

Q Do you give a testto determine what level the 
student will be in?

A We don't give a special test; we have a system- 
wide testing program which is administered routinely at 
several different grade levels. That is one of the factors 
that is used, and then marks, school marks, in previous 
courses is also used, and recommendations from the teacher.

Q Do you have any written records or standards to 
govern which section a student will be in?

A We don't have any, no, except to describe the 
kind of student that each of these courses is designed for.

Q But no objective standards?
A No.
0 Have you checked the ability groupings at Reynolds

High School?
A No, I haven't.
Q Have you checked the ones at North?

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A No, sir.

0 Do you know what section or division the Negroes 
at Reynolds fall into, in ability grouping?

A I don't know as a matter of fact, as a matter of 
certainty, fir. Chambers.

0 Who would have the records for that? Who would
know?

A Who would know? Well, that would be in the—  

that information would be in the individual school and might 
conceivably be identifiable from records in the guidance 
office where our schedules are maintained, and these classes 
are coded so that you can determine whether English II in 
Room 201 at the first hour is as we call it a three-level 
course, a two-level course, and so on. It would be a matter 
of going to those records and then determining the racial 
makeup of the classes.

Q Do you have a section within the superintendent's 
called Testing and Research?

A We have a section called Research and Statistical
Service.

0 Is that the section that controls the testing?
A That's the section which handles the test scoring

and the assimilation of test results.
Q Does it select the test that's used?
A No, the tests are selected by a system-wide

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- 1049 -

committee composed of teachers, counsellors, and administra­
tors .

0 Who is the head of that section?
A Dr. James Sifford.
q Would you tell the Court why your vocational 

offerings at Carver and Atkins and Anderson High School 
differ from the course offerings at the other high schools 
in the system?

A Except as it relates to the size, I don't believe 
that there is a difference, a substantial difference, in 
Anderson and Carver. The vocational offering at Atkins is 
more substantial because of the location of the trade 
preparatory classes there.

Q Well, let's see. I show you again the exhibit 
attached to your answer to interrogatory seven. Is home 
economics a vocational course as you have interpreted it?

A It is classified as a vocational course by the 
State Department of Public Instruction.

0 Is industrial arts classified as a vocational 
course?

A No.
Q It is not. The last page of this answer shows

vocational education. That shows the course offerings at 
each of the senior high schools in the system in vocation?

A Yes.

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Q Not all schools offer the same vocational courses?
A No, they do not.
Q My question again is why the difference between 

the course offerings at the Negro schools and the course 
offerings at the white schools?

A Except for the courses in agriculture, which are 
offered at three schools - East Forsyth, North Forsyth, and 
West Forsyth - I don't see a substantial distinction, Mr. 
Chambers.

0 Well, are there differences in the course offer­
ings in addition to those courses?

A The other difference is that students " of 
education is offered at Carver.

0 Is there anything else?
A Marketing, which is a related—  a course related 

to distributive education, is offered at only three schools 
and is not offered at any of the Negro schools.

Q Isn't there another course, too?
A I'm trying—  I can't find it.

THE COURT: What three are those?
THE WITNESS: Those three are East Forsyth —

it's difficult to read those things - North Forsyth,
and Parkland.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers asked if there were
others, and that's the question before you now. I

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realize that it will take some tine to find it.
A I cannot identify another, Mr. Chambers. There 

may be one I am missing on here.
q Do you know why those courses are not offered at 

the Negro schools that you named?
A The distributive education course is not offered 

at Carver because of the size of that school, and now I see 
the other one and it is the industrial cooperative training, 
which on this sheet shows that it is not offered at Anderson 
and Atkins, which since that time has a program, has been 
instituted at Atkins High School in this area.

Q Has it been instituted at Anderson?
A No, it has not.
Q Do you know why those courses are not offered at 

the Negro schools?
A The reason is that those two schools are quite 

small in student enrollment, and it is difficult to sustain 
even one cooperative program, much less two. So we have 
offered only one of these cooperative programs in both of 
those schools.

Q What about Atkins?
A Atkins now has a program in both areas, distribu­

tive education, a very strong program, although it does not 
show on this exhibit. A program is now in operation there 
as of the 1969-70 school year.

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Q Why wasn't it operated in 1968-69?
A There were additional positions allotted at the 

beginning of the 1969-70 school year, and one of them was 
for that purpose.

0 What do you mean about allotted positions?
A Additional state funds were allotted for vocational

education.

Q Why didn't the local Board of Education allot 
one of those teachers to Atkins last year?

A The only answer I can give you is that the total 
vocational program there is much more substantial than at 
any other school, and Atkins students take greater advantage 
of the trade programs than the students from the other 
schools.

0 That's the only reason you can assign personally 
presently?

A Yes.
Q I show you an exhibit and answer to interrogatory

39. I ask you if that exhibit shows the test scores of the 
students of grades 1 through 12 in the high school as of 
the date indicated?

A This shows the average scores on the standardized
achievement tests which we admister at grades 3, 6, 8 and 10 
throughout the school system by school.

Q Would you look at the last page?

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A Yes.

THE COURT: Which exhibit are we referring to?
MR. CHAMBERS: That the defendants* answer to

interrogatory 39.
THE COURT: All right.

Q Would you tell us whether there is a difference 
between the average score in the Negro schools and the white 
schools, high school?

A There is a difference.
Q Would you tell us what accounts for that difference 
A I don't know how to say what accounts for it, Mr.

Chambers. If it were something correctable, I would have 
tried to correct it. I would say that it is a cumulative 
deficit that these children bring through the school years, 
through their school years, from a beginning at which they 
have had less opportunity and less readiness for school, 
and that as they progress through school, this deficit 
becomes cumulative and increases.

Q Do you have a copy of your Exhibit 34?
A Is that—
Q Your study.
A Yes. I'm not sure which is 34.
0 I think that's the early one.
A Yes, I do have that.
0 Would you look at grade one on that exhibit?

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A That's a study of sixth grade pupils.
Q What about the entering grade? Do you have that

shown on that exhibit?
A I beg your pardon?

Q Do you have the entering grade one on that exhibits
A No, I believe not. That exhibit seems to deal

with sixth grade only, and the achievement at sixth grade 
as related to I.Q.

Q I see. So that doesn't do anything but test 
the kid at the sixth grade level?

A it tests his reading achievement at the sixth 
grade level.

Q Does it compare it with the third grade level or 
the ninth grade level or anything?

A It compares it with the average Negro students 
who are not attending predominantly white schools.

Q How long had the children in that example been in 
the predominantly white school?

A Two years or more.
Q Now, have you checked the grade achievement level 

of the children after they complete the sixth grade, say, 
in the ninth grade, to make any kind of comparison?

A We have not made any more recent studies than the 
two which we discussed here, the last one being in July of 
'69.

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Q Did the last one test the children in the ninth
grade or sixth grade?

A No, we tested elementary children again.
0 In the sixth grade?
A I believe it dealt with children in the third 

grade and sixth grade.
Q Well, was there any comparison between the 

children in the third grade and the sixth grade to see 
whether there was any increase in the achievement level?

A Yes. In comparing sixth grade children or in 
measuring the achievement of sixth grade children, we found 
that for this group of children—

Q Measurirg them with whom?
A Measuring them against the average of Negro 

children in the school system.
Q In Negro schools?
A All Negro children, yes, and most of them would be 

in Negro schools.
Q All right.
A We found that those who began their schooling in 

the predominantly white schools made somewhat higher grades 
than those who transferred in. We found - the finding which 
I mentioned earlier about improvement in arithmetic computa­
tion. Otherwise we found that the results were about the 
same as would have been expected had they remained in Negro

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s c h o o ls .

Q Did you have a Negro valedictorian at one of the 
predominantly white senior high schools?

A I believe we did have. We don't have valedictoriar 
and aalutatorian; we have about eliminated those positions 
and have come up with what would be referred to as honor 
graduates, though they are listed in order of rank, and I 
believe that a Negro girl did—  was the highest honor
graduate in one high school last year, possibly last year.

Q I show you a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 23, page 
317, dealing with Atkins Senior High School. I think you 
testified that that was the only senior high school that 
qualified unequivocally by the Southern Association of 
Secondary Schools and Colleges?

A That's correct.
Q Would you look at that paragraph and tell the

Court what that paragraph says about Atkins High School?
A The paragraph has to do with the plant. Do you 

want me to read it?
0 Yes.

A "The total school plant is in poor condition. It 
has the general appearance of neglect. The plant should be 
considered for abandonment for the following reasons: (1)
The site is too small for a high school, 40 to 50 acres 
needed. (2) The neighborhood environment surrounding the

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school is totally unsatisfactory. (3) The library is too 
small; is not functional. (4) Guidance facilities are 
inadequate. (5) Specialized areas are inadequate for a 
large high school program. (6) Facilities are not adapt­
able to a contemporary program of large group, small group 
and individual study. (7) Plant not air conditioned.
(8) Cost of modernizing would exceed value of returns for 
service over a period of years. The inadequacies are too 
extensive to justify the expense and effort of trying to 
correct them.”

Q Do you have that same opinion of Atkins High 
School?

A I would say that I have generally that opinion of 
Atkins High School.

Q You have a Title II program in Winston-Salem also?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe that provides funds for library books?
A And other instructional material.
Q I think that all schools in the system qualify for 

Title II funds?
A All schools do qualify. There is some kind of a 

relative need formula that applies to that, Mr. Chambers, 
which determines the extent of participation.

Q When did you start Title II?
A My recollection is that we started that in 1966.

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I am sure we started it the first year it was available.
Q You are familiar with the ratio of library books 

per student in the school system?
A Yes, I'm familiar with that.
Q Did you, Mr. Sarbaugh, attempt to use those funds

to equalize the library books per pupil?
A We applied the relative need index as outlined.
Q Do you know why some of the schools in the system

today have less books per pupil than other schools?
A Yes, sir. I believe I testified to what I felt 

were the two most substantial reasons.
Q Was it possible for you to use Title II funds to 

equalize the books per pupils?
A It may have been possible for us to use Title II 

funds on some different proportion of relative need than we 
used. We chose to submit the needs of every school anti 
allow them to be allocated whatever amount of money their 
relative need called for.

Q Have you seen Exhibit 5 attached to the Board's 
answers to interrogatories?

A Yes, sir.
Q And that shows the books per pupil in each of the 

schools in the system?
A It does.

THE COURT: Are you saying, Dr. Sarbaugh, that you

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s u b m i t t e d  t h e  n e e d  o f  e a c h  s c h o o l  a n d  then whoever
r u l e s  o n  T i t l e  I I  f u n d s  m ade t h e  a l l o c a t i o n ?

THE W ITNESS: Y e s ,  s i r .

THE COURT: I s  t h a t  t h e  p o i n t ?

Q (B y  H r . C h a m b e r s )  D id  t h e y  m ake t h e  a l l o c a t i o n  

p e r  s c h o o l  o r  d i d  t h e y  m ake a lu m p  sum  f o r  t h e  s c h o o l  

s y s t e m ?

A T h e a l l o c a t i o n s  w e r e  m a d e , a s  I  u n d e r s t a n d  i t ,  o n  

a  p e r - s c h o o l —  b a s e d  u p o n  t h e  s c h o o l ' s  r e l a t i v e  n e e d .

Q Was t h a t  d o n e  b y  t h e  S t a t e  D e p a r t n e n t  o f  P u b l i c  

I n s t r u c t i o n ?

A I t  i s  my u n d e r s t a n d i n g  t h a t  t h e  m e c h a n ic s  o f  that 
i s  d o n e  b y  t h e  S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  o f  P u b l i c  I n s t r u c t i o n ,  b u t  

t h a t  t h e  f o r m u l a s  a r e  e s t a b l i s h e d  u n d e r  T i t l e  I I  out o f  the 
U . S .  O f f i c e  o f  E d u c a t i o n .

Q And d i d  y o u  s u b m it  t h e  a p p l i c a t i o n  t o  Raleigh?
A Y e s .

Q To t h e  S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A Y e s .

Q I t ' s  y o u r  o p i n i o n  t h a t  y o u  got back a per-school 
a l l o t m e n t  r a t h e r  t h a n  a  lu m p  sum  a l l o t m e n t  for distribution 
a s  t h e  l o c a l  B o a r d  sa w  f i t ?

A T h a t  i s  my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

Q Do y o u  h a v e  i n  y o u r  o f f i c e  a  r e c o r d ,  a receipt of
t h a t  a p p l i c a t i o n ?

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A Yes, we would have all the records of that, and 
our coordinator of instructional materials is the person 
who directly administers that program. She would be more 
competent to answer questions on that than I. But that is 
my recollection.

Q What is that person's name?
A Mrs. Medora Hill, M-e-d-o-r-a Hill.
Q You testified about administrative difficulties 

as you saw it in integrating the schools in the. system. Do
you have anything to do with establishing school attendance 
areas?

A No, sir.

Q Have you worked on a committee that established 
attendance areas for schools?

A I have worked within our administrator’s staff
on possible changes in attendance area lines, on new 
construction, in a limited way. But my area is primarily 
instruction.

Q Are you familiar with the racial composition of 
the city and county, generally familiar with where the 
Negroes reside and where the whites reside?

A I am certainly generally aware of that.
Q Did you see the plaintiffs’ exhibits describing 

where the Negroes and whites are residing in the city?
A I can’t recall, Mr. Chambers. Is that one of the

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exhibits that you introduced several weeks ago?
THE COURT: Hr. Sink or Mr. Leggett, maybe you

can help there with the exhibit.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) According to Mr. Charles Green 

who testified here earlier, this is the way he found Negroes
and whites to be residing, according to census tracts of the 
city.

A Yes.

Q According to him, the largest concentration of 
Negroes in the city were in cerses tracts 3, A, 5, 6, 7 and 
16.

A Yes.

0 In your opinion is that where the largest number 
of Negroes reside in the city?

A I'm not totally familiar with those census tracts, 
but from my general knowledge of the community in looking
at that map, that would appear to me to be where the largest 
number do live.

Q He also shows in census tract 2 that 80 to 90 
percent of the Negroes reside—  the residents in the census 
tract are Negroes. Would that be true in your opinion?

A May I?
THE COURT: Oh, yes.

A I would say that would be true, yes, sir.
Q He also says that in census tract 8 and 2, that

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the residents in that area would be approximately 60 to 70 
percent Negro?

A Eight and—
Q Two and eight.
A I would think that that would be correct.
Q He says that in census tract 19, that the resi­

dents in that area would be approximately 50 to 59 percent 
Negro?

A X m not as certain of that area. I can't say 
about that.

0  Well, according to him, the other census tracts 
of course in the county would run from 0 to 49 percent
Negro. This area here would be 0 to 10, and this area here 
would be 10 to 20?

A I would say that that is generally an accurate 
reflection.

Q Now, this Exhibit 29 shows the combined elementary, 
Junior high and senior high school attendance areas?

A Yes.

Q Did you know that in the establishment of those 
boundary lines, you would have only Negroes attending schools
in these areas?

MR. WOMBLE: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled, if he understands the

question; if he doesn't, you may rephrase it.

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A Are you asking if I knew at the time those boundary 
lines were drawn that Negro children make up the school
population?

Q Yes.
A I will have to say that I haven’t been involved to 

any extent in either the original makeup or modification of 
any of those lines. They were part of the Winston-Salem 
city unit, as I understand it; they existed before 1963.

Q Were they modified subsequent to that? I thought 
there was a school attendance area in 1965, and these as I 
recall were 1966?

A I don’t recall any modification in which I was 
involved in 1965.

Q What about April of 1966?
A I just don't recall.
Q Well, if Negroes concentrated in this area from 

90 to 100 percent, the attendance line enclosing those areas 
would only give you Negro students?

A It certainly would.
0 And if no Negroes are involved out in this area, 

or very few, the student population of those schools would 
be principally white, wouldn't they?

A That would be true.
Q Are you familiar with school pairing?
A Yes, I'm familiar with that; I'm familiar with

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t h a t  c o n c e p t.

Q Are you familiar with clustering of schools?
A The term "clustering" is new to me in terms of

pupil assignment. We have used the term of "cluster" in a 
teaching context rather than pupil assignment, but I have 
recently heard that term used.

Q Would you tell the Court what you understand 
"pairing" to mean?

A As I understand "pairing", it would be identifying 
two or more schools and two or more school attendance areas 
and oombining them into one attendance area, and providing 
a portion of the instruction at one school for all of the 
students in that area and a portion of the instruction at 
the other.

Q Like you take two elementary schools previously 
served grades 1 through 6, and divide one up to 1 to 3 and 
the other 4 to 6?

A That's right, yes.
Q That’s similar to, or is it about the same thing

as the Princeton Plan?
A That’s the way I, understand it, yes.
Q What do you mean by "clustering of schools"?
A I Judge that would mean more than two schools 

somewhat following this same context, where you might take 
several schools, a group of schools in a larger geographic

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areap and either reassign children so that maybe one school
was the first grade school, and another one was the second
grade school. That would possibly be one explanation of it.

0 Have you also heard of an organization school and 
a 4-4-4 plan?

A Yes.
Q Would you explain that for the Court?
A As I understand the 4-4-4, that would be a school 

where children attended grades 1, 2, 3, and 4 in one school,
grades 5, 6, 7 and 8 at another school, and grades 9, 10, 11 
and 12 at another.

Q Do you know of any school systems that are present} 
using that kind of school system?

A I know that there are some that are moving in that 
direction. I'm not positive that I can name one that I know
is, but it is a popular - a rather popular idea, particularly
the middle four.

Q In fact, that's the way they refer to it, the
middle grade?

A It's referred to as a middle school. It may have 
four grades; it may have three.

Q Mr. Sarbaugh, isn't it possible under some kind of 
arrangement, either in pairing, clustering, or reorganization 
of the schools, to integrate all of the schools in this 
school system?

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MR. WOMBLE, Object.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I will sustain it,

using the term "integrate-. You can us. another word.
I think that would be "mix the races," or something.
As to what "integrate" means, that seem, to be highly
debatable. Sustained in that form, ask him in another 
form.

° (By Mr. Chambers) In your opinion, Mr. Sarbaugh, 
is it possible through one of the arrangements that we have 
mentioned, or a combination of others, to mix students 
racially in each of the schools in this school system?

A It certainly is possible.
Q Now, what difficulties do you see it would have 

if you did that?

A It would be—  the major difficulties would be in 
designing any kind of logical orderly assignment pattern 
and maintaining it. It would mean essentially the abandon­
ment of the idea of school attendance and residents being
•elated. It would appear to me to be in many way, substsm- 
ilally more expensive.

Q Why would it be more expensive?
A Well, just from the point of view of movement of 

hildren. It would be more expensive in terms of trsnsport- 
ng them. If children attend schools based on their reslden, 
men the presumption is that many of them live close to the

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school they attend.

a Would the consolidation of schools also reduce 
the expenses that you presently have?

A Would the consolidation of schools?
Q Yes.
A Consolidation of schools would reduce some

expenses. We have not found actually - I believe we have
found many major savings in consolidation of schools because
there are some savings and there are some added costs on 
the other side.

THE COURT! 1 know what the word "consolidation" 
means, but in an educator's term - when we talk about 
"pairing" and "clustering" and "4-4-4", how does
"consolidation" differ? Isn't that a combination of 
several? What is that?
A It would be, Your Honor, the closing of one school 

and sending the children from that school to another, or 
auilding a new school and abandoning the old ones, ---- lt
lating existing schools and they no longer serve their 
jrevious purpose.

THE COURT: There has been some testimony about a
school in the southwest that serves some group in the 
southwest quadrant, and on. in the northeast. Is that 
carrying out that kind of plan? Is that the idea?
A The testimony about a new high school might serv<

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" -ht be carrying out that idea. There was a period in the 
history in this county of our educational development when 
there was a great deal of consolidation of small high 
schools, particularly in the Forsyth County unit. When I 
came here, for example, there were about fourteen high 
schools, all of them with student bodies of 150 to 200, and 
as the years went by we built new high schools and consoli­
dated several of those small ones by closing their high 
school program and transferring it to this new and larger 
consolidated high school.

THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't it true, Mr. Sarbaugh, 

that the State Board of Education has recommended that the 
schools consolidate in order to eliminate the expenses of 
operating small separate schools?

A It is true.

0 That was one of the factors behind the consolida­
tion of the county and city school units, wasn't it?

A No, sir. Now, you’re talking about a different 
term. That is a merger, and that is not the same thing.

0 Even a merger, sir, didn’t that reduce the 
expenses? Wasn't that one of the objectives of it?

A Not in this county, Mr. Chambers. We had two 
pretty large units already. The State Board of Education's 
interest in merging administrative units is in those counties

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C



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whers there are four or five separate administrative units, 
as there is in my home county, for example, Robinson County. 
There are four or five separate administrative unit.! each 
one has its own superintendent and administrative structure. 
And the State Board's Interest is in the merger of those 
small units.

Q Is it also in the consolidation of smaller high 

schools?
A It certainly is.
q Now, you were listing some of the problems with 

mixing students in the school system, and you stopped at 
what you thought would be added expenses to the school 
system. Do you know of any other problems that you might 
have, carrying out a plan that would mix students in each
school system?

A There would be adjustment problems, to be sure, 
and there would be some administrative difficulties involved^ 
but I would say that the major concerns, the major problems
would be the ones that I have listed.

Q The fact is, Mr. Sarbaugh, it can be done, can it

not?
A I don't think there's any question about the fact

that it can be done.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: It's about lunchtime. Will you people-

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a m o c i a t e s

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t s * *  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.



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I keep forgetting about you, Mr. Vanore1';'1
MR. VANORE: We do have some questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I should have let you ask before he

was examined by counsel for plaintiffs, but I overlooked 
it. Would you all like to have him for redirect, Mr. 
Garrou?

MR. GARROU: We have a few questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Well, you come down, Dr.

Sarbaugh. We will take our lunch recess, and take a 
recess until 2:00 o'clock.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case 
was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock p.m.)

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O f p i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Mr. Sarbaugh, would you come back to

the stand, please? Before you get underway again, Mr. 
Garrou, let’s hear from the State of North Carolina and 
give the county an opportunity to examine. Either one of 
you go, as you all see fit.

MR. VANORE: Is Mr. Chambers through now, Your
Honor?

THE COURT: He had announced he was, but do you
have other questions that you'd like to ask him now, Mr. 
Chambers?

MR. CHAMBERS: No, Your Honor, not at this time.
THE COURT: All right.

FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Sarbaugh, I believe you 

testified that there are certain courses of study that are 
required to be taught at each of the schools, required by 
the State Board of Education?

A There are some required courses, yes.
Q Who decides whether additional courses will be 

taught and in which schools the additional courses will be 
taught?

A The local Board of Education.
Q The local Board of Education. Now, twice in this

examination Mr. Chambers referred to federal and state rules

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

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1072-

for qualifying students for Title I ESEA funds. Do you
know who has the responsibility for determining eligibility 
for Title I ESEA funds?

A That eligibility would be a part of the federal 
guidelines.

G Part of the federal guidelines. In other words, 
do I understand you to say that there are no state rules or 
guidelines as far as those funds are concerned?

A Yes, that would be correct.
Q I believe also you testified that the state allo­

cates funds for vocational teachers; did you not testify to 
that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Who determines In which schools the vocational 
teacher will teach?

A The local Board of Education.
Q Now, in answer to one of Mr. Chambers’ questions 

as to whether or not there were ways to cause more racial 
mixing, I believe you stated that there would be some 
problem presented as far as student assignment patterns?
I ’m not sure if I understood you correctly. Was the major 
problem that you stated would be presented to the Board 
|would be student assignment patterns? Is that correct?

A As I recall, I said that that would be one of the 
|major problems, yes.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C. 

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Q Who has the responsibility of determining student 
assignment patterns, Mr. Sarbaugh?

A The local Board of Education.
Q Who has the responsibility to determine whether 

or not a school will be paired with another school or 
consolidated in your school administrative unit?

A Well, all decisions of that kind would be made by 
the local Board of Education.

Q I believe in answering one of Mr. Chambers’ 
questions concerning Title II ESEA funds which, I believe, 
deal with library funds, you stated that the funds come 
from the State Department, and when they come from the 
State Department they are designated as to a particular 
school to which these funds will be used at. Have you 
reconsidered your answer?

A I have checked and determined that my answer was 
in error, and that the funds from the state are allocated 
to the local unit on a per pupil basis, and that the distri­
bution of those funds on relative need is determined by the 
local administrative unit.

Q By the local administrative unit alone?
A Alone, yes.
Q Now, of course these state funds are actually 

federal funds, which are transmitted from the federal level 
to the local level by the State Board of Education?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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A That's correct.
Q But they are actually federal funds?
A They are federal funds.
Q In allocating these federal funds, is it your 

understanding that the State Department of Public Instruction 
does and must follow the federal guidelines?

MR. CHAMBERS: I object to that, Your Honor. I
don't see how Mr. Sarbaugh could testify about that.

MR. VANORE: I asked him if it was his under­
standing.

MR. CHAMBERS: That was a conclusion of lav.
THE COURT: That would be a conclusion of law.

Sustained.
MR. VANORE: I don't think I have any further

questions.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: I haveno questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Garrou.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Mr. Sarbaugh, in response to 

questions on cross examination, I asked you to compare the 
projected racial composition of the schools with Defendants' 
Exhibit 26 showing the actual composition as of December 19, 
1969. You testified, I believe, that all of the projected 
schools with white only enrollment ended up that way, did

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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you not?

Q I show these two exhibits to you now and ask you 
to compare the projectedenrollment of Bolton with the 
actual enrollment and see if there is a discrepancy.

A There is a discrepancy. The projected enrollment 
is 540 white and no Negro. The actual enrollment is 520 
white and 1 Negro.

Q I ask you to look at the figures for Sherwood 
Forest and tell the Court whether there is any discrepancy.

A There is a discrepancy there also. Do you want 
me to give it?

Q Yes, please give It.
A The projected figure was 848 white and no Negro. 

The actual figure as of December 19 was 822 white and 1 
Negro.

Q Now, I ask you to look at South Fork Elementary
School and to compare those figures.

A The projected figure was 732 white and no Negro; 
the actual figure on December 19 was 691 white and 2 Negro.

Q Now, I ask you to look at Kennedy Junior High 
and compare those figures.

A The projected figure is 1,058 Negro and no white; 
the actual figure is 1,042 Negro and 1 white.

Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, you testified in response to

A I  b e l ie v e  I  d id .

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cross examination about the vocational education in the 
high school, and you mentioned that agricultural programs 
were given in some high schools that were predominantly 
white. They were given in those schools and in none of the
high schools that are predominantly black. What's the 
reason for that?

A There isn't any apparent indication of demand for 
that program. There was a time when vocational agriculture 
was offered at Carver High School - that was at the time 
when that school served all of the Negro students in the 
county - and a substantial number of young Negro men from 
the rural areas were interested in such a program, there­
fore it was a program worth continuing. When the Carver 
district was modified and these students to a large extent 
began attending the high schools in the areas in which they 
lived, the need for this program seemed to diminish.

Q Mr. Sarbaugh, are you aware of the School Board 
Plan to close Carver Senior High School and Anderson High 
School? Are you aware of that plan?

A I'm aware of that, yes, sir.
Q What were the reasons for that proposal?
A There were two basic reasons for that proposal,

Mr. Garrou. The first was to close two small high schools 
in which the student enrollment was not sufficient to pro­
vide the broadest possible programs, and the second reason

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O r n c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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was to attempt to increase the extent of pupil desegregation 
Q Now, was this proposal carried out?
A No, sir.
Q Why not?
A The funds with which to do the necessary con­

struction to make way for the carrying out of this project 
have not been made available to the Board through some legal 
action pending against the Board.

Q I believe you also testified in response to cross 
examination about the physical facilities at Atkins High
School?

A Yes, sir.
Q And your testimony was limited to the physical 

facilities, is that correct?
A I believe I read a statement from the Peabody 

Report. Is that what you have reference to?
Q Yes.
A Yes, it dealt with physical plant.
Q Now, when a school is accredited, does the 

accreditation agency take into account the physical facilitie 
A Yes, that's one of the criteria.
Q I believe you also testified as to the effect of

Title II of ESEA on the library books in the various schools 
did you not?

A I did.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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Q Have you had occasion to compare the per capita 
number of library books in schools attended by predominantly 
black students with a per capita number of library books in 
predominantly white schools?

A I have occasion annually to examine the per 
capita library book figures in all schools in arriving at 
some basis for making special allotments. So I have 
reviewed allocations from all schools of the per capita 
numbers from all schools.

Q Have you detected any pattern in relation to the 
racial makeup of the schools as compared to the number of 
library books in such schools?

A I don't believe that there is any pattern with 
respect to the racial makeup, Mr. Garrou. If there is a 
pattern, it would be in relation to the age of the school.
The newer the school, the smaller its library collection 
per pupil.

MR. GARROU! That’s all, Your Honor.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have Just one or two questions,

Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Other than the one Negro at 
Bolton, and the one Negro at Sherwood Forest, the two Negroes| 
at South Fork and the one white student at Kennedy Junior 
High School, do you know of any other change from the actual

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C. 
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1079-

figures shown in that projection and the interrogatories?
A 1 do not, except the actual numbers are different, 

but with respect to racial makeup, I do not know of any 
other.

I think your answer on cross examination previously 
that there wasn't any substantial change between the figures 
shown on the projected figures and the answers to interro­
gatories and the figures you actually showed in your 
answers in your exhibit. Is that correct?

A I suspect that was correct.
Q Would you consider a school with 520 whites and 

1 Negro to be integrated?
MR. WGMBLE: Object.
THE COURT; Sustained. That's a question of law

and it's a matter of debate as to whether ve are
integrated or not, it seems.
o (By Mr. Chambers) You said that you were familiar 

'lth the plan of the School Board to close Carver and 
diderson Senior High Schools?

A Yes.
Q This was adopted back in 1967 or '60?
A Yes, I think that's about right. It seems to me 

67 possibly.
Q Do you know of any proposal of the Board to mix 

tudents in previously all black schools?

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O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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A No, air.
Q Isn’t it true that certainly since the merger 

what integration has taken place has been principally 
Negroes moving to previously all white schools?

A With the exception of these scattered cases, that 
would be correct.

Q Would some of the Negro schools in the system in 
your opinion be satisfactory for use if you mix students in 
those schools in the system?

THE COURT: I didn’t understand that question.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Are you familiar with the 

study made of this school system in 1964 by the State 
Department of Public Instruction?

A I'm generally familiar with it.
Q I think that'8 included in your answers to 

interrogatories that you filed in this case. In that study, 
the State Department made certain recommendations about the
use of the the existing facilities of the school, did it
not?

A It did.
Q Some were recommended to be continued for long 

range use and some were recommended to be discontinued, is
that correct?

A Yes, and some had been recommended for short range 
ise and partial use, and so on.

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O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.  

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Q And that study was supplemented by the Peabody
Committee?

A Yes, a follow-up study by that group, with an 
Intervening study by our own staff.

Q Oh, you have the study, too?
A Not as exhaustive as either of those.
Q Was it written?
A I believe so.
Q Are you generally familiar with the recommenda­

tions of the State Board with respect to the long range, 
short range, etcetera, use of schools in the system?

A I am not in a position to testify to those, I 
don’t feel, very completely, Mr. Chambers. That is an area 
of our operation - it is somewhat removed from my jurisdic­
tion. I am familiar with this study; I did read it at the 
time; I don't feel too competent to answer that.

MR. CHAMBERS: Okay; I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further of Mr.

Sarbaugh? All right. Thank you; you may come down,
sir.

(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Leo Morgan.

WHEREUPON,
LEO MORGAN

G R A H A M  E R L A C M E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E
w iM Q T n u  Q i i  r u  ki r



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was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Womble) Please state your name.
A Leo Morgan.
0 What is your age and where do you live?
A Fifty years of age; I live at 718 Westview Drive,

Winston-Salem.
Q What is your work, Mr. Morgan?
A Assistant superintendent of schools in charge of 

business affairs.
Q For the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Systeml
A Right.
Q How long have you been with the local school 

system?
A Seventeen years.
Q And what is your background of experience with 

the system? What jobs have you had?
A I began here as a teacher in the eighth grade at 

Gray High School, assistant principal at Whitaker, assistant 
principal at Hanes High School, principal of Hanes Junior 
High School, principal of Dalton Junior High School, and 
then in '62 assistant superintendent of the city schools.

Q And you have been with the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education since consolidation in 1963?

A Yes, sir.

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Q Now, in your particular work as assistant superin­
tendent, what is your area of responsibility?

A Business affairs, which would include new construe- 
tion, maintenance, and a portion of transportation.

G How many school buildings are there in the 
system that are now in use and which were built prior to
1930?

A Twenty-two.
Q Of these twenty-two buildings, how many of them

are used for schools where the student body is predominantly 
white?

A There are seventeen of the twenty-two which are
predominantly white.

Q And how many are schools where the student enroll­
ment is predominantly black?

A Five of the schools would be predominantly black.
Q Still speaking with reference to the older schools

in the system, what, if any, additions have there been 
built? In other words, are most of these in their original 
state, or have all of them or most of them had some addition 
constructed to them over the years?

A The records show that all of them have had - all 
of the twenty-two schools built prior to 1930 have had 
additions, one or more.

Q What is the condition of the schools with respect

■3fw
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to maintenance?
A You’re talking about this group of schools?
Q Yes.
A Well, I think they have been kept in a good state

of maintenance.
Q Now, this morning, in connection with the examina­

tion of Mr. Sarbaugh, a statement was requested to be read 
and was read from the Peabody Report on page 317, which 
included a statement that Atkins High School has the general 
appearance of neglect. Are you personally familiar with 
the appearance and condition of Atkins High School?

A I am.
Q What in your opinion is the appearance and condi­

tion of Atkins High School?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't want to be­

labor it, but I would just like to raise a question 
about the right of a party to cross examine - to 
challenge a document the party has introduced himself. 
As I recall, the local Board of Education introduced 
this document, this Exhibit 23, and whether the testi­
mony now is going to challenge what is already 
presented as its evidence, I think would be objection- . 
able.

THE COURT: I sustain the objection in the form
submitted as to what is his opinion about it. I will

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let him tell, Mr. Womble - I will let him tell about
it, what the appearance is.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What is the appearance and 

condition of Atkins High School, Mr. Morgan?
A I would say the appearance and condition is 

relatively good, in relatively good condition.
Q I show you a photograph album and ask you if you 

know what this album is, what it contains?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it?
A It contains photographs of the exterior of all of 

the school buildings and some surrounding snapshots.
Q In the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County System?

Yes, sir.
When were these pictures taken?
During the last month.
In what order are the photographs placed in the

A
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A
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album?

A The elementary schools first in alphabetical 
order, and then the Junior high schools in alphabetical
order, and senior high schools in alphabetical order.

Q And with respect to each school, what is the order 
in which the photographs appear?

A We have two shots of the exterior and then two 
photographs of the surrounding area.

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Q X call your attention to the photographs narked 
Atkins Senior” and ask you if those are fair representa­

tions - if those two pictures of the exterior of the school 
are fair representations of the exterior appearance of 
Atkins Senior High School?

A I would say they are fair representations of the
exterior of Atkins High School.

Q This has been marked Defendants' Exhibit 36 - that 
is this photograph album. Are you familiar with all of the 
pictures in the album?

(The item, above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 36 
for identification.)

A
album.

Q
A

I didn’t take them all; I've looked through the

Have you looked carefully at all of the pictures? 
I don't believe that I looked carefully.
MR. CHAMBERS: If Mr. Vomble will so state that

those are the schools in the system, I will so stipu­
late.

THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. WOMBLE: We offer into evidence Defendants'

Exhibit 36, showing all of the schools in the school 
system with photographs following each of the .pictures 
of the schools to show something of the surrounding 
territory.

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THE COURT: A l l  r i g h t .  Received into the evidence
is Defendants' Exhibit 36.

(The item above referred to, here­
tofore marked Defendants' Exhibit 
No. 36 for identification, was received in evidence.)

THE COURT: Just bring it and show the Court the
pictures of Atkins, the bottom of that page and the 
top of the next. I believe you want to see this? If 
you will hand this to Mr. Chambers—
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, when was Brown 

Elementary School built?
A The original construction was in 1914, an eight- 

classroom building.
Q And what additions, if any, have been added to 

that building since that time?
A There was a seven-classroom addition to Brown 

Elementary in 1939, three classrooms and a combination 
cafeteria-auditorium in 1955, and a ten-classroom addition 
in I960.

Q I show you a photograph in Defendants' Exhibit 36 
that states—  it's a picture of Brown Elementary. Would 
you please state what view of Brown Elementary that is?

A That would be the southwest corner.
Q And please state what you see there in that photo­

graph as it relates to any additions to the building.

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THE COURT: Put your finger on the picture you*re
talking about.

THE WITNESS: This picture. The building, here is
the ten-room addition.

THE COURT: In the middle of the photograph?
THE WITNESS: That's the latest addition, yes,

the newest portion of the building. In the background 
you see a two-story portion; the front portion is part 
of the three-room addition, the cafeteria and auditorluii 
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, the next photograph of Brown 

is a photograph showing what view of the building?
A This picture was made from the northwest corner.

It shows the auditorium-cafeteria combination and the three 
newest classrooms, which would be nearest Highland Avenue, 
and in the background is the oldest portion of the building.

Q What are the three following photographs immediate! 
following the second photograph of Brown Elementary?

A The third picture is a portion of the single­
family dwellings located north of the school. The fourth 
picture represents multi-family dwellings, apartments, on 
the south side of the school. And there is a fifth picture 
which shows a single-family dwelling on Highland Avenue 
north of the school.

Q What is the condition of Brown Elementary School?
A Well, I would say in general the building is in a

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good state of repair; however, I think the early construction 
should be phased out.

Q Would it be practical to phase out the oldest 
part of the building and continue to use the never parts 
of the building as an elementary school?

A The newest portion, the ten-room latest addition 
of I960, is separated by a covered walk from the remainder 
of the building; that could be used. There are other parts 
of the building, the other additions were tied on to the 
original construction and it would be difficult to tear 
that portion down and continue using the other; however, 
it could be done.

Q What is the size of the site on which this school
is located?

A The site contains six acres.
Q What kind of area is this in? Is it in a sparsely 

developed area, or is it a centrally located area within 
the community, or where is it?

A It is centrally located in the attendance area.
Q Is there any playground area with this school?
A Yes, we have playground area to the east of the

school and to the west of the school.
Q What are the projected plans for the continuation 

or discontinuation of the use of this school at the present 
time?

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MR. CHAMBERS! I raise an objection to that. I 
could reserve it for cross examination, but I -hVHnir for 
the record we should point out whether it's the plan 
of the School Board or what. There are three documents 
now in evidence that pertain to projected use of the 
school.

THE COURT: I will sustain it. Be more specific,
Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What are the School Board's 

present plans for the continued use of the school?
A The School Board has no plans in the six-year 

capital program. Brown was not a part of any construction 
in that program.

Q Is there any plan to eliminate the school, to do 
away with it?

A The School Board has made no commitment to do
away with the school.

Q Based upon your knowledge of the facility, is 
there any reason from a physical standpoint - that is from 
the standpoint of the physical facility - to close or to 
ebandon that school, other than the older portion that you 
have already testified about phasing out?

A No.
Q I now show you the photograph of the 14th Street 

School. Would you please explain what the age and condition

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o£ that school is?

A The original construction of 14th Street Elemenl
School was 1922.

Q What, if any, additions have there been to that
school?

A The original construction contained eighteen 
classrooms. In 1929 twenty additional classrooms were 
constructed.

Q are the Soh°o1 Board's long range plans with
respect to the 14th Street School?

A The School Board has not made any long range plans 
in connection with the 14th Street School.

Q Is there any proposal to expend- has the School
Board acted to expend any money toward the modernization of 
that school?

A There are no plans; no plans have been made other 
:han the general maintenance.

° What °ther schools in the system are most compar­
able in age and condition to the 14th Street School?

A Well, in design and shape and size, I would say 
hat the Kemersville Elementary School and the Walkertown 
lementary School would be the two that would be comparable 
ith the 14th Street Elementary School.

Q When were those two schools built?
A The Kernersville Elementary School was built in

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1926. The Walkertown Elementary School was built in 1924.
Q With reference to the North Elementary School, 

what is the age and condition of that school?
A North Elementary, the original construction was 

1923. There was an addition in 1952, and the latest addi­
tion was 1967. The 1923 portion of the building is still 
in use and is in a fair state. The *52 and '67 are in good 
to excellent condition.

Q Do you know whether or not there is any plan or 
any proposal to use North Elementary School in connection 
with the Model Cities program?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. The question is do you

know.
A I do know that it would be a part of that program.

MR. WOMBLE: Examine him.
THE COURT: Just a minute. Let's get all the

defendants first.
MR. VANORE: I have no questions, Your Honor.
MR. LIGON: No questions.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers.
MR. CHAMBERS: I Just have a few, Your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, are you familiar

with this Peabody Report?

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A

-109-

Yes, sir.
Q Have you looked at the appraisals of the schools

by the Peabody Committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q In your opinion, do their appraisals of the 

schools differ from yours?
A In general, I would agree with them.
Q Just as one example, North Elementary School - 

would you look at page 297, the last paragraph there dealing 
with North Elementary and read that to the Court?

A The last paragraph that deals with North Elementary
Q Yes, sir.
A "The building maintenance is inadequate. Custodial

service needs improvement, particularly in general and 
toilet room cleaning. The load on this plant should be 
reduced. The old building is in poor condition and obsolete. 
It should be demolished and replaced with a new facility.”

Q Now, you are also familiar with the school survey 
by the State Department of Public Instruction?

A Yes, sir.
Q Would you look at page 76 of that and read the 

general - the last general conclusion of the State Depart­
ment?

A "This elementary school plant will need attention 
within a very few number of years. It is not filled to

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capacity at the present time."
0 That’s in 1964?
A ’64.
Q So between *64 and '66 or *69, when the Peabody 

Committee Report was made, he had a substantial increase 
of the number of students attending that school?

A I don't know what the increase would be. There 
was an addition, a six-room addition, in 1967.

Q But in ’64 it was under-used, you had an addition 
to facilities in ’66, and in '69, according to the Peabody 
Report, it was over utilized?

A That's the report, yes.
Q In the maintenance of the schools, do you prepare 

a proposed budget for the School Board for upkeep of ground 
area and shrubbery and planting, etcetera?

A Yes, sir, we prepare the budget.
Q Do you prepare it for each school?
A For each school.
Q When you are concerned with making additions to 

existing facilities, do you prepare a budget for the School
Board?

A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when you have to make additional room and 

use mobile units, is it your office that also recommends to 
the School Board that a mobile unit should be placed at *»X"

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or "Y" school?
A It is not my office that makes the determination 

where the mobile units would go.
Q Does your office get involved in that decision at

all?
A Somewhat, yes.
Q In what respect?
A The Department of Instruction informs us where

additional space is needed, and we might shift a mobile 
unit - our department would shift a mobile unit from one 
location to another, or take care of the bidding for new 
mobile units.

Q Hasn't it happened quite a bit - in other words, 
moving one mobile unit from one school to another school 
because of increased population?

A This happens every summer.
Q Every summer? About how many units do you move

around like that?
A Well, it varies from year to year, depending on

what the needs are.
Q How many did you move in '69?
A We moved only two from one - I believe; I'm not 

positive of this. I believe two from other schools, from 
school to school, but a good many new ones were purchased.

Q How many new ones were purchased?

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A I don't recall offhand.
Q Do you have an approximate figure?
A About twenty-five.
Q And these mobile units cost about what?
A Six to eight thousand dollars, depending on the

type.
Q Six to eight thousand dollars?
A Six to eight thousand.
Q That's per mobile unit?
A Per mobile unit.
Q Do you have anything to do with capacities of 

schools, the school's ability to accommodate students?
A Only so far as determining whether or not a class­

room is standard or sub-standard.
Q What standard do you use? Is that the standard 

that's suggested by the State Department of Public Instruc­
tion?

A I don't know what their recommendations are size- 
wise. We use anything below 625 square feet as substandard.

Q Isn't it true that when you are getting ready to 
build a school building, you have to submit your proposal — 
that's the architectural drawings - to the State Department?

A Yes, sir, all the plans have to be approved by 
the Division of School Planning.

Q They have to approve it as to size and lighting

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-1097-

conditions and windows, etcetera?
A Correct.

Q When you add a mobile unit to a school facility, 
you increase the capacity of the school to accommodate the
students at that particular school?

A In practicality, yes, but in the capacity that we
published, the answer is no. It does not increase its
capacity.

° But ln actual effect, one mobile unit might add 
thirty more additional spaces for students?

A We use twenty-five as the figure.
Q Now, when you add a mobile unit to a white school,

you increase the capacity of that school then to accommodate 
white students at that school?

A Well, I say in practicality, you increase the
capacity of the school by twenty-five.

Q The same thing will be true if you add it to a
Negro school?

A Sure.

a Have you seen Exhibit 5 attached to the defendants'!
answers to interrogatories in this case?

A I have.

Q Did you have something to do with the preparation
of that document showing the number of mobile units at each
school?

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A I  d id .

Q Did you have something to do with the column 
dealing with the pupil capacity of the school?

A No, sir.
Q Do you know who made that determination?
A I believe Mr. Smith, the associate superintendent

of schools, made that.
Q When you made these additions to North Elementary 

that you were talking about and to Brown, did you not know 
that those additions would accommodate or that they would 
be populated only by Negro students?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A At Brown, I was not in this position when the 
addition was made, so I don’t believe I could give an 
answer to that. At North Elementary, the six classrooms 
were built when I was serving in this capacity. I did not 
know for sure that this would serve only black students.

Q You didn't know of any plan by the Board at that 
time to integrate—  well, to mix students in the school 
system at that time?

A I did not know of any plan at that time.
Q Have you made additions to the existing white

schools in the system, too?
A Yes.

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Q I think you have even constructed some white
schools new since 1954?

A Yes, sir.
Q And you didn't know of any plan at that time of 

the Board to mix students racially in those schools at that 
time, did you?

A No, sir.
Q Do you have anything to do with the purchase of 

land for schools when you are getting ready to build a new
school?

A Yes, sir.
Q What is the Board's standard now for the number of 

acres for an elementary school, recommended acreage?
A For an elementary school with enrollment of eight

hundred, ten acres.
Q What about a junior high school?
A Thirty, I guess, for eight hundred.
Q What about a senior high school?
A Forty acres for eight hundred, and one acre for 

each one hundred students above eight hundred, and the same 
thing would apply to elementary and junior high, above eight 
hundred an acre for each additional one hundred students. 
This is a general guide.

Q And the new high school projected where you plan 
to close Carver Senior High School and Anderson Senior High

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School, do you know how many acres of land you have purchased 
for that school?

A Would you repeat the question; I'm sorry.
Q It's my understanding that you propose to build a 

new high school in the northeastern part of the county to 
accommodate high school students from Carver and Anderson?

A I*m not familiar with that plan.
Q I show you this document attached to the Board’s 

answers to interrogatories, Exhibit 12, and ask you if that 
is a plan for the projected use of money by the School 
Board under the bond issue?

A It was, yes.
Q Has the Board changed that?
A The present Board has not officially adopted this 

plan as approved by the previous Board.
Q You mean the present Board of Education has not 

approved of the use of the moneys under the bond issue?
A No. The present Board has not to my knowledge.
Q There was some testimony a moment ago about the

Board not being able to carry out its proposal because of 
these pending lawsuits. Is it your testimony that the Board 
really doesn't have a plan, the present Board?

A The present Board was in the process of reviewing 
this plan.

Q It hasn't approved it yet?

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-1101-

A Not to my knowledge.
Q Do you have anything to do with the selection of

sites for schools?
A Yes, I do.
Q What are some of the factors that you consider 

when you select a site?
A Well, in selecting a site, you are selecting a 

site for a proposed school, and the need for the proposed 
school would have to be created or felt before you would 
start selecting a site. You wouldn’t select a site until 
you had a need for a school. The need for a school would be 
that some school is overcrowded or would need an additional 
school to relieve the overcrowded conditions at some school.

Q Once determined that a school was overcrowded, and 
you perhaps would need some additional facilities for class­
rooms, what would you consider then in selecting a site?

A Well, accessibility, a road situation, the topo­
graphy of the land, the soil conditions, how far it was from
the schools that it was to serve - those are some of the
general ideas.

Q So one thing you would consider would be the
students you anticipate being assigned to the particular
school?

A Yes.
Q Where they stay. Let’s suppose that you are in

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the circle here, census tracts 3, 4, 7 and 16, and you 
wanted to combine these districts for one elementary school. 
Would you try to select a school in the center of those 
districts so that all students would be going approximately 
the same distances to school?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
A I don't believe that_

THE COURT: Just a minute. Mr. Womble, he says
he has something to do with school selection.

MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir, he selects sites in areas
where he's instructed to select them by the Board. He 
doesn't select the sites on his own. In other words. 
It's a matter of Board determination as to where the 
school is to be built, and then he seeks the site for 
the area to be served. He doesn't make the selection 
of the area to be served himself.

THE COURT: That is possibly true, but that isn't
what he's saying. I think you could maybe bring that 
out by argument or otherwise, but that isn't what he 
is saying. Overruled.
o (By Mr. Chambers) Would you try to select a

chool in the center of the area?
a Are you saying that you would have one elementary 

ohool to serve that entire group or the entire area?
Q If that waa Part of the consideration, that you

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would have overcrowded schools I n  t h a t  a r e a  a n d  y o u  w a n t e d  

to build a school t o  a c c o m m o d a te  t h e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  o v e r ­

crowded area. Now, w o u ld  y o u  t r y  t o  l o c a t e  t h e  s c h o o l  i n  

the center of t h e  a r e a  y o u  were t r y i n g  t o  s e r v e ?

A Well, I t h i n k  t h a t  w e w o u ld  l o o k  a t  t h a t  -  w e  

would look a t  i t  f r o m  t h a t  s t a n d p o i n t .  T h a t  w o u ld  b e  o n e  

consideration.

0 Prior t o  t h e  n ew  Board t a k i n g  o f f i c e ,  w h a t  f a c t o r  

did you consider in s e l e c t i n g  t h e  s i t e —  w a s  t h a t  t h e  E a s t

High School attendance a r e a ?

A I wasn't involved i n  t h e  E a s t  H ig h  S c h o o l ,

selection of that site.

Q Which h i g h  s c h o o l  w a s  t o  a c c o m m o d a te  t h e  s t u d e n t s

from Carver a n d  A n d e r s o n  H ig h  S c h o o l s ?

A E a s t  F o r s y t h  H ig h  S c h o o l .

Q Your t e s t i m o n y  i s  t h a t  y o u  w e r e  n o t  i n v o l v e d __

A You said Carver and A n d e r s o n ?

Q Yes, I did s a y  C a r v e r  a n d  A n d e r s o n .

A Carver—  E a s t  w a s  t o  t a k e  c a r e  o f  C a r v e r  b u t  n o t  

Anderson. Parkland—  the p l a n  w a s  f o r  P a r k la n d  t o  t a k e  c a r e

of Anderson High School.
Q Did y o u  h a v e  a n y t h i n g  t o  d o  w i t h  t h e  s e l e c t i o n  

ol the site for the East,H ig h  S c h o o l  a t t e n d a n c e  a r e a ?

A No, sir.
Q Did you h a v e  a n y t h i n g  t o  do w i t h  s e l e c t i n g  t h e

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site for Parkland?

- 1104-

A Yes, sir. I worked in conjunction with the 
Planning Board and the School Board.

Q What factors you consider in selecting the
site for Parkland?

A Well, three or four sites were selected by the 
Planning Board, the City-County Planning Board, and the 
School Board reviewed all of these sites, bringing to bear 
the topography, the general area serving the students, and
the School Board made the final decision on which site would
be selected.

MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, anything on redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, I believe you testi- 

fied on cross examination that the previous School Board 
had approved the capital improvement program for the 
expenditure of bond funds that was shown to you by Mr.
Chambers. Is that right?

A Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q Now, when you say "previous School Board" as 

contrasted with the present School Board, when was there a 
change in the School Board?

A A change in the School Board—  there was a c- 
n the School Board in December of 1968.

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Q Was that after the Atkins suit and after the
Scott suit had been instituted?

A Yes, sir.
Q When was the bond election that approved the 24.8

million dollars of school bonds?
A That was in the spring of 1968.
Q And state what, if anything, you through your 

office or the School Board through you and your office, had 
done prior to the institution of the Atkins suit with 
respect to employment of architects or anything else that 
needed to be done toward the construction of additions at
EaSt m & h  School» Walkertown or Parkland, or all three, to 
accommodate the students who would be transferred from
Carver and Anderson.

A Architects were employed and preliminary drawings
were made by the architects.

Q For what project?
A For the East High addition, the Walkertown Junior 

iigh addition, the Parkland High School addition.
THE COURT: All right. Now, for East High School

addition—

THE WITNESS: East High, Walkertown Junior High_
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: And Parkland High School addition.
THE COURT: All right.

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-1106

A
Q
A
Q
A

The preliminary plans_
(By Mr. Womble) Well, now—  go ahead.
Excuse me.
Go ahead.
The preliminary plans are on file, and we were 

instructed after the lawsuit to stop work on the plan.
Q Do you haPP0n t0 recall how much expense had 

occurred at that time for architects’ fees?
A In the neighborhood of twelve thousand dollars.
Q You testi*ied also on cross examination that while 

the placing of a mobile unit at a school would increase by 
twenty-five the number of children who could physically be 
accommodated at the school, you didn’t actually change the 
rated capacity of the school. Are you familiar with the 
rules and regulations of the School Board with respect to 
the determination of whether or not a school has reached 
capacity for the purpose of determining whether or not a 
request for transfer by a student will be accepted?

A I am familiar, but I could not repeat it, Mr.
tfomble.

Q With respect to North Elementary, do you recall 
/hether or not it had been necessary to place mobile units 
it North Elementary to accommodate students residing within 
;hat attendance area prior to the construction of the addi-
ion to North Elementary in 1967?

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A Yes, sir, we had mobile units located there. I 
don't recall how many, four or five, I believe.

MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have one or two questions.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any questions?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.
MR. VANORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, do you recall 

complaints of Negro parents in Winston-Salem about the 
request to close Carver High School?

MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A Yes, I do.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Were they not asking the School 

Board to make Carver High School a high school rather than
close it?

A Mr. Chambers, I don't recall the nature of their
plan.

Q They did complain though, to your knowledge?
A Yes.
Q And that was before the bond issue was passed?
A I don't recall.
Q Wasn't it before this lawsuit was filed?

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1 A I believe that's right.
Q Wasn't it before you let contracts to the archi­

tects to draw the addition at East?
A I believe that's right, yes, sir.

MR. CHAMBERS: I have no further questions.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, what was Carver Schoo 
built to serve? What kind of a school was it?

A it was a union school, grades 1 through 12, built
to serve—

Q All twelve grades?
A All twelve grades.

Where a school—  well, are you familiar with thatQ
plan?

A
Q

Yes, sir.
Is that school built to serve all twelve grades 

an adequate facility to serve as a high school facility
only?

A With major renovation, my answer would be affirma­
tive.

Q
A
Q
A
0

As it now stands?
No, sir.
But it would take major renovation?
Yes, sir.
Do you recall whether or not there was objection

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Phone 765 0636



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to the closing of Paisley Senior High School by the parents 
and students in the Paisley area?

A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, it's still operating, isn't it,

Paisley?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Is Paisley Senior High School

still operating?
A Paisley Senior High School is no longer operating. 

THE COURT: I see Paisley, but that's a Junior
high, isn't it?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Paisley Senior High and Paisley 

Junior High were formerly operating in the same building,
were they?

A In the same building, yes, sir.
Q As is the case with Carver and Anderson?
A Yes, sir.
Q Paisley Senior High was closed?
A Yes, it was closed.

MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. VANORE: I have one or two questions, please,

sir.
FURTHER EXAMINATION

Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe you stated in response 
to one of Mr. Chambers' questions that the State Superinten­
dent's office approved architectural plans for school

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S

O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r *  

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buildings as to structural soundness and functional sound­
ness. Is that correct?

A Well, I said the Division of School Planning 
approved all of our plans, preliminary and finals.

Q Who determines where a school building is going to 
be located or relocated?

A The Board of Education makes that decision.
Q Who determines the size of the school building?
A The Board of Education makes that decision.
Q That's the local Board of Education?
A The local Board of Education.

MR. CHAMBERS: I Just have one question.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, in your opinion, 
would the renovations that you indicate would be necessary 
at Carver High School to accommodate Just a senior high 
school cost more than the new additions you are making at
East?

A It would be about the same amount.
Q That's with the existing facilities you have 

there to accommodate senior high school grades?
A Yes, sir.

MR. CHAMBERS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right, you may come down.
MR. WOMBLE: Come down.

(Witness excused.)

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-11]

THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have other witnesse:
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: How many more?
MR. WOMBLE: At the present time, I have two.
THE COURT: Let's take our afternoon recess.

(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to call Mr. Andrews to the

stand. Your Honor, before starting with this witness 
and so I won't overlook them, I would like to offer 
into evidence a publication of the Greater Winston- 
Salem Chamber of Commerce entitled, "Pocket Library"; 
it has some statistical data about the area, and he 
has no objection to it.

THE COURT: All right.
CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' Exhibit 37.
THE COURT: All right. Received into the record

is Defendants' Exhibit 37.
(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 37 
for identification and was received 
in evidence.)

MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to also offer into evidence
the interrogatory number 5 of the defendant Winston- 
Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education, addressed to 
the plaintiffs, and the plaintiffs' answer to that

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interrogatory. It relates to the identification of
the plaintiffs and concludes with the statement, 
"Plaintiffs do not contend that they were denied 
transfer to other schools because of race, but rather 
that defendants' plan and method of assigning students 
and teachers and total operation of the school system 
perpetuates a racially segregated system."

CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' 38.
THE COURT: You're not marking that as an exhibit;

that's Just in the record as evidence, is that right? 
There's nothing you're marking as an exhibit?

MR. WOMBLE: No, I did not.
THE COURT: It's not necessary.
MR. WOMBLE: Just so long as it's available to

the Court.
THE COURT: I was writing and I did not see what

you all were doing there.
MR. WOMBLE: I was really Just reading it into

the record. It would be interrogatory No. 5 and the
answer.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: That is not an exhibit then?
THE COURT: No. In some of your exhibits, is that

contained in any of the interrogatories? You have a 
number of them. Is that in yours?

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MR. CHAMBERS: We did not introduce our interrO'
gatories as an exhibit.

THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,

WILLIAM H. ANDREWS
v/as duly sworn and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Please state your name and age

and where you live.
A I'm William H. Andrews, 39} I live in Winston- 

Salem, 3640 Spalding Drive.
Q Mr. Andrews, how long have you lived in Winston-

Salem?
A I've lived here all of my life except for college 

years and a two-year tour in the Air Force. So that's six 
years.

Q Where did you receive your public school education^
A I attended elementary school at Columbia Heights

Elementary School, and Atkins High School.
Q Is Columbia Heights an elementary school in the 

City of Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it still in operation?
A It is not.
Q And you also attended Atkins High School in

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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Winston-Salem?
2 A Right.
3 Q Where did you go to college?
4 A I went to Tuskegee Institute in Alabama.

5 Q
What degree did you obtain from there and when did

6 you graduate?
7 A I received a bachelor of science degree in 1952.

8 Q
And I believe you stated you were in the Air Force.

9 When were you in the Air Force and where did you serve?

sO A I also received a commission in the Air Force,

1! along with my degree. In August of '52 I went on active

12 duty.
13 Q Where did you serve?

14 A 1 served in Headquarters Command, Washington, D. C.

15 Q
And when were you released from active duty?

16 A August of '5^.
17 Q

What was your rank at the time of your release?

18 A I was a first lieutenant at the time of my release

19 Q
Have you continued in the inactive reserve since

20 then?
21 A

Well, I was in the active reserve and I was

22 oromoted to captain. I am not inactive.

23 Q
Mr. Andrews, where did you go when you left the

241 Air Force?
2!S A I c a n e  back to Winston-Salem, back home, to go

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o f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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into business.
Q And with whom did you go into business and what

did you do?
A Several things, Mr. Wombla. I worked with a real 

estate firm, Ernest Johnson Seagravesj I also worked with 
my family firm in the real estate end.

Q And how long were you engaged in that?
A That, plus the operation of a service station,

for seven years.
Q What did you go into next? What line of work?
A I then went into Urban Renewal.
Q When was that?
A That was in 1961, September of '61.
Q And with whom were you employed at that time?
A I was employed by the Redevelopment Commission of

Winston-Salem.
Q Are you still with that organization?
A I am still with that organization.
Q Who was in the charge, who was the full-time

executive head of the Redevelopment Commission at that time? 
A Mason E. Swearengin, Executive Director.
Q Did he hold any other position at the same time?
A Yes, sir.
Q What?
A He was also Executive Director of the Housing

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Authority for the City of Winston-Salem.
Q What was the physical relationship between the 

Housing Authority office and the Redevelopment Commission
office?

A Well, they were two separate municipal corpora­
tions with an executive head.

Q Where? Were they in the same building?
A In the same building, yes.
Q How large an operation was it at that time as 

far as office space was concerned?
A In 1961, we had in the central office roughly 

200 square feet of office space. It was rather small.
Q Was that both for the Redevelopment Commission 

and the Housing Authority?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you employed to do by the Redevelopment

Commission in 1961?
A I was employed as a relocation officer.
0 What were the duties—  were there other relocation 

officers, or were you the only one?
A At that time I was the only relocation officer.
Q What were your duties as a relocation officer?
A They were to find suitable standard housing units

for displaced persons.
Q What do you mean by "displaced persons"?

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A These were persons displaced by the federal action 
of urban renewal.

Q How long did you continue as relocation officer?
A Roughly seven or eight months, roughly seven

months.
Q And then what was your next—
A I was promoted to relocation supervisor.
Q And what was your duty as relocation supervisor?
A Again, to physically relocate displaced families,

and as a supervisor - having brought on another relocation 
officer - I was to direct him.

Q In other words, you were in charge of all reloca­
tion activities at the Redevelopment Commission office?

A That's correct.
Q How long did you continue as relocation super­

visor?

A Two years. Again, that's approximately two years.
Q And then what was your next title?
A I was promoted to project manager.
Q And what was your duty as project manager?
A As project manager, my duties were the overall 

responsibility of relocation, of property management, of 
demolition. Well, those were the major areas as department 
manager. Clearing land, getting it ready for sale, and this 
type thing. But still the overall responsibility of the

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relocation.
Q Do you still have that title, or what is your

title now?

A I am administrative director for community services 
for both agencies, the Housing Authority and the Redevelop­
ment Commission.

Q And what are your duties as community services
director?

A I have the overall responsibility of relocation 
and making sure that it relates to the physical as well as 
the human standpoint, or we call it human renewal, as well 
as the physical renewal. It ties in social-economic problems 
in relocating people.

Q And you have this responsibility both for the 
Redevelopment Commission and the Housing Authority?

A Yes, sir.
Q Is it correct then to say from what you have 

already testified that you have been in charge of relocation 
for the Redevelopment Commission ever since you went with 
the Commission in 1961?

A Yes, sir.
Q During that time, how many families or family units 

I don't know what term you use - but how many individual or 
family unit relocations have you had responsibility for?

A Sixteen hundred and fifteen since '61.

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THE COURT: Are you talking about families?
THE WITNESS: These are householders, displaced

householders. Some were individuals, families and
individuals.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What has been the race of the 

people, the race or races of the people, who have had to 
relocate as a result of these projects?

A All black.
Q And what has been the policy of your office and 

the Redevelopment Commission with respect to the location 
of the residences to which these people were relocated?

A We have the policy - is and has been to relocate 
into standard housing throughout the community where such 
standard housing could be found at rents or prices that the 
displaces could afford to pay.

Q What sources of information have you regularly 
used in finding available places for these people to move 
into?

A We have used newspaper; we also have worked an 
arrangement with leading real estate people in Winston- 
Salem, and they supply us on a form that we give them 
listings of their vacancies. This is done weekly.

Q What parts of the community have you found listings 
available in connection with this work?

A The total community, Mr. Womble.

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Q Now, in undertaking to help these people find a
place to live, please state whether or not you have 
attempted to direct or control the place in the commxnlty 
to which they should move.

A Not at all. It would Just be possibly the 
opposite. We have not attempted to direct; there is always 
thechoice of the displacee. Pointedly, we make it a point 
not to direct the displacee as to where he should or should 
not move.

Q When you mentioned the figure 1615, was that the 
number that you have actually relocated?

A Yes, sir.
Q To date?
A Right, sir.
Q Please state whether or not, or what success you 

have had in finding residences for these people in the 
places where they wanted to move into.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I for the record would
just like to object, and I can explain it later.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
A We have found relocation resources in the areas 

that the families wished to move to. There are sufficient 
resources avaiable in the city.

Q Do you have a breakdown as to how many of the 
people - how many of these 1615 - moved into individual

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private homes; how many moved into public housing; how many 
moved into apartments or rooms?

A Yes, sir.
Q Could you give us that breakdown?
A Of the 1615, 177 purchased homes. 622 went into 

rental units. 137 went into public housing, federally 
aided public housing. 17 of them moved out of the city 
altogether. 23 moved without us knowing where they moved to. 
20 of them moved on their own into substandard housing. And 
20 of them were evicted. 599 individual householders moved 
into rental units.

THE COURT: 599 moved into rental units?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

Q (By Mr. Womble) So I believe you said 599 indi­
viduals?

A Right.
THE COURT: Wait. I'm not understanding you.

622 rented homes and 599 moved into individual rental
units?

THE WITNESS: Right. There is a breakdown, sir,
of the families who moved into units and individuals.
We are required to keep separate records on individual 
householders and families who receive additional 
federal benefits.

THE COURT: I see. All right.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C
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MR. WOMBLE: Do you have a city map there?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, I show you a map tha 

was introduced into evidence by the plaintiffs attached to 
their Exhibit 21. Are you familiar with that map?

A Yes, I am.
Q Was it prepared in your office?
A Right.

Q Now, would you please—  do you know what these
colors and percentages mean?

A Yes. The percentages mean the number, the percent
of people who were displaced and the areas into which they 
went.

Q Now, do you know how many people—  do these per­
centages add up to one hundred percent?

A They should, yes, sir.
Q Do you know how many people that involves?
A No, sir, I would have to break that down in the

office. We are still using the 1615.
Q 1615 families?
A Yes, sir.
0 From your testimony, do I understand correctly

that this would involve 177 purchases of homes?
A Yes, sir.
0 And 622 family units moving into rental facilities? 
A Right, sir.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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Q 137 into public housing?
A Flight.

Q 20 persons who moved on their own to substandard
housing?

A Yes.

Q And some 599 individuals moving into rental units? 
A Yes, sir.
Q So it is not 1615 persons purchasing homes?
A No, sir.
Q Now, the area where the 34 percent figure is

shown is bounded generally by what streets?
A By Northwest Boulevard on the south, 32nd Street

on the north, the new North-South Expressway on the east, 
and Cherry Street on the west.

0 Cherry-Marshall?
A Cherry-Marshall on the west.
Q Now, at the time you began your work of relocating

persons, what was the residential characteristic of that 
area from the standpoint of race?

A On the western portion, or near that Cherry Street 
side, that area was all black. In the northern area, ^jain 
down to Northwest Boulevard, the area was all white.

0 That would be the eastern half of the 34 percent
area?

A Yes, sir.

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O f p k  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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THE COURT: And w h a t  d o e s  t h e  p e r c e n t  m ean ?

THE W ITNESS: T h e 34- p e r c e n t  o f  t h e  p e o p l e  who

h a v e  b e e n  r e l o c a t e d  a r e  i n  t h i s  a r e a ,  s i r .

THE COURT: O f t h e  t o t a l  n u m b er  o f  p e o p l e  r e l o c a t e d

THE W ITNESS: T h e  t o t a l  n u m b er  o f  p e o p l e  r e l o c a t e d .

THE COURT: A r e  y o u  t a l k i n g  a b o u t  t h e  w h o le  1 6 1 5 ?

THE W ITNESS: Y e s .

THE COURT: A l l  r i g h t .

Q (B y  M r. W om ble) W ere y o u  a b l e  t o  sh o w  p e o p l e  

h o u s e s  t h a t  t h e y  m ig h t  p u r c h a s e  i n  t h a t  a r e a  -  t h a t  w a s  t h e  

e a s t e r n  h a l f  o f  t h a t  a r e a  t h a t  y o u  r e f e r r e d  t o  a s  b e i n g  

f o r m e r l y  w h i t e ?

A Y e s ,  w e d i d .  We d i d  s h o w  p e o p l e ,  a n d  t h e y  o f  

c o u r s e  a c q u i r e d  h o m e s  i n  t h a t  a r e a .

Q Was t h e  n u m b er  o f  p e o p l e  w ho w e r e  r e l o c a t e d  i n t o  

t h a t  a r e a  fr o m  t h e  s e r v i c e s —  a s  a  r e s u l t  o f  t h e  s e r v i c e s  

o f  y o u r  o f f i c e ,  a  l a r g e  o r  a  s m a l l  p e r c e n t a g e  o f  t h e  N e g r o  

c i t i z e n s  w ho m o v ed  i n t o  t h a t  a r e a  b e t w e e n  1 9 6 1  a n d  1 9 7 0 ?

A I t  w a s  a  s m a l l  p o r t i o n  o f  t h e  p e r s o n s  w ho m o v ed

i n t o  t h a t  a r e a  w ho w e r e  a s s i s t e d  b y  t h e  R e d e v e lo p m e n t  

C o m m is s io n .  We w e r e  t a l k i n g  o f  a n  a r e a  o f  so m e  3 , 0 0 0  h o m e s .

Q N ow , t h e  3 7  p e r c e n t  a r e a  sh o w n  o n  t h e  map g e n e r a l l y  

i s  b o u n d e d  b y  w h a t?

A G e n e r a l l y  b o u n d e d  b y  U r b a n  R e n e w a l  o n  t h e  s o u t h ,  

o r  1 1 t h  S t r e e t  o n  t h e  s o u t h ,  2 5 t h  S t r e e t  o n  t h e  n o r t h ,  a n d

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N  C

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the New Walkertown on the east, with this area that we just 
discussed, or the North-South Expressway, on the west.

Q Now, what was the racial composition of that area 
in 1961?

A The southern portion was all black. The northern 
area was mixed.

Q W e l l ,  w a s  a l l  o f  t h e  n o r t h e r n  a r e a  m ix e d ,  o r  w a s  

so m e  o f  i t  a l l  w h i t e  a t  t h a t  t im e ?

A Som e o f  i t  w a s  a l l  w h i t e  a t  t h a t  t i m e .

Q Do you recall when the northern area, the northern 
portion of that 37 percent area, when it first began to 
change from white to black?

A As I recall, the area went into transition about 
'56 or ’57, beginning in the southern portion, and then 
going on to the north.

Q Now, did you relocate persons into areas or 
portions of that 37 percent area where it was either a white 
neighborhood or a mixed neighborhood?

A I  d i d .

Q Would the persons who were relocated into the 
37 percent area through the services of your office consti­
tute a large or a small percentage of the total number of 
Negro citizens who purchased homes in that area between
1961 and 1970?

A T h e y  w o u ld  r e p r e s e n t  a  s m a l l  n u m b e r .

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

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1126

U Now, what are the general boundaries of the 23 
percent area shown on this map?

A That is generally Wheeler and Claremont in this 
smaller portion here.

Q That's at the south, is it?
A That's at the southwest corner. 1-40 on the south

area. Generally the Winston Lake area­
ta On the east?
A On the east. Bismark, which is in the Carver

Hoad area, on the north. Bismark, Butterfield Drive, in 
that area.

0
A
Q
A
Q

And on the west?
The Smith—Reynolds Airport.
And the 37 percent area that you Just testified? 
Yes.

Now, what was the racial - strike that. To what 
extent was this area developed for residential purposes in
1961?

A The southern portion, that which is close in to 
the center city, was developed and was occupied by blacks. 
The Carver Road area, Butterfield Drive, Cumberland Court, 
and so forth, was undeveloped at that particular time. 
However, the few streets that were developed were in black 
areas.

Q And I believe the Reidsville Road is also a part

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O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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A Right, sir. It's white, but it's a mixed area 
now. it's not an area of transition? it's an area in which 
whites and blacks live.

0 How many years has that been true to your knowledge>
A It has been in recent years that the City View

area -I would say in the past six years.
Q Have you through the services of your office had 

listings and made properties available to persons being 
relocated in the City View-Riedsille Road area?

A We have relocated in the City View area, yes.
Q 1)0 y°u have ar opinion as to the range of values 

of new homes built in this area in the past ten or fifteen 
years, along Highway 311 and in the new residential areas 
that you Just referred to, that are in the 23 percent area?

A Yes, I am familiar with the price ranges in this 
area. They are from ten to seventy-five thousand dollars.
The medium, 1 would say, would be in the twenty to twenty- 
five thousand.

0 Wliat are the names of some of the residential 
developments of recent years going out Highway 311 and on
each side of the highway?

A There is Northwood Estates, which is the largest 
recent development, with roughly 500 new homes, ranging up 
to 23, 24, 25 thousand dollars.

o f  th e  s o u th e rn  bo und a ry  o f  t h a t  a re a , i s  i t ?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N  C

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Q Where i3 it located?
A This is off of Carver Road to the left. This 

area backs up to the Smith-Reynolds Airport.
Q That would be to the west of Carver Road?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right.
A On the east in the Cumberland Road area, or 

Cumberland Road, you have the houses ranging up to—  one 
ranges up to $75,000; the medium would be $30,000 to $40,000 
In this large area here, that goes all the way down to 
Carver School—

Q That would be on the—
A That would be on the east side of Carver Road.

Northwood Estates is on the west side. In this total area 
are scattered homes that are in the higher priced range, 
and on down Carver Road; Spalding Drive has homes in the 
$25,000-$35,000 range; Winston Lake Estates, the same range. 
Those are private developments in that 23 percent area.

Q Are there some apartments on Highway 311 there at 
Winston Lake?

A Yes, sir. There are 100 units of public housing 
for theeLderly. Of course, this is under the leased housing 
program.

0 What is the name of that?
A That's called East Gate Village.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

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-115

Q
A

Q What is the racial makeup of the persona who live 
in that particular project? Is that a leased area?

A 90 percent black$ 10 percent white.
THE COURT: You had a name for that?
THE WITNESS: That is East Gate Village.
THE COURT: East Gate Village.
(By Mr. Womble) And its exaot location is where? 
It's Highway 311 or New Walkertown Road. On this 

map, we don’t have streets doing down in it, but It ia 
directly across the street from East Drive, or the Lakeald© 
Apartments which you might be familiar with.

C Is East Gate Village and Lakeside Apartments the
same thing?

A No. Lakeside Apartments are privately owned.
East Gate Village is a public housing program.

Q Now, when Lakeside Apartments were built, were 
the original tenants there white or Negro?

A They were white.
And are the tenants there today white or Negro? 
It’s 100 percent black occupancy.
And it is a privately owned apartment, Is it?
Right.
How many units are there, do you know?
I think there are two hundred and sixty some

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A

onits there.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

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1130-

Q How old are those apartments?
A These apartments were built during World War n .
Q Now, in the 6 percent area, can you define that

in any way as to geographic boundaries? It's pretty spread
out on the map.

A Again to the north is 1-40, and it runs down to 
Waughtown Street, to the south, generally Stadium Drive on
the east, and Alder Street on the west. And the second
area—

Q That’s the second part of the 6 percent area?
A Right. It’s Devonshire on the north, Station 

Street on the west, Thomasville Road on the east, and 
Joyce on the south. That’s a crowded street on the south.

Q What was the racial composition of this 6 percent 
area at the time you began your work as relocation officer?

A The first area of this 6 percent reading was all 
black. The last described area— ■

Q The first described area lies generally west of
the Stadium, does it?

A Yes.
Q All right.

A The second area, except for a small portion on
Moravia Street, was all white, except for this small area,
this Moravia Street area.

Q Would that be the southwest portion of the bottom

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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s e c t io n  o f  th e  6 p e rc e n t  a rea?

A It would be.
Q Please state whether or not you have shown places 

of residences to persons whom you were finding homes for in
that area.

A We did show homes, and in fact relocated people
to that area.

Q Mr. Andrews, let's see, in which one of these 
areas would the City Hospital, the former City Hospital,
be?

A It would be in the 23 percent area. The old 
City Hospital would be right in here (indicating on map).

Q What was the racial composition of that area 
immediately west of the hospital and north and south of the 
hospital when you were a boy?

A It was all white.
Q And what is it now?
A It is non-white.
Q What have the persons whom you have relocated - 

strike that - Have you had a regular questionnaire that you 
have filled out in connection with your relocation work on 
each of the persons to be relocated?

A Yes, sir, I have. We of course do one hundred 
percent surveys before we go into execution of an Urban 
Renewal project. I didn’t bring that survey sheet with me.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r !  

A S H E  D R I V E

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THE COURT: You say you went with the Redevelopment
Commission, Mr. Andrews, in what year?

THE WITNESS: In September of 1961.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Womble) I show you Defendants' Exhibit 38,
and I ask you if that is a copy, a form that you use in
connection with your relocation services?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 38 
for identification.)

A Yes, sir.
Q What are the questions that you ask a person in 

undertaking to find out where they would want to move to?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: The best evidence rule, Your Honor,

if he has a document.
THE COURT: Do you have a sheet that contains the

questions?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Are those the questions? I'll let him

tell what they are. Are you going to introduce that?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Go ahead.

A Question 7 on this sheet asks in what neighborhood

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O r r i c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  
A S H E  D R IV E

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-1133-

o f  t h e  c i t y  w o u ld  y o u  r a t h e r  l i v e  a n d  w h y .

Q (By M r. W om b le) W hat k i n d  o f  r e s p o n s e s  h a v e  y o u

gotten to that q u e s t i o n ?

A We h a v e  h a d  n i n e t y  p e r c e n t  o f  t h e  p e o p l e  t o  a n s w e r  

that they w o u ld  r a t h e r  r e l o c a t e  i n  t h e  sa m e  g e n e r a l  n e i g h ­

b o r h o o d ,  a n d  t h e y  g i v e  r e a s o n s  s u c h  a s  f r i e n d s ,  t h e i r  c h u r c h ,  

or t h e i r  w o r k , o r  y o u  k n o w , t h e  l o n g  l i s t  o f  r e a s o n s  w h y .

But the s u r v e y  r e s u l t s  s h o w e d  n i n e t y  p e r c e n t  o f  t h e  p e o p l e  

want to relocate i n  t h a t  sa m e g e n e r a l  n e i g h b o r h o o d .

Q Now, y o u  h a v e  r e f e r r e d  t o  t h e  n o r t h e r n  s e c t i o n ,  

up in the P a t t e r s o n  A v e n u e - B o n  A i r  s e c t i o n  -  t h a t  w o u ld  b e  

one of the f i r s t  a r e a s  t h a t  y o u  t e s t i f i e d  a b o u t  t h i s  a f t e r ­

noon -  a s  h a v i n g  g o n e  t h r o u g h  a  t r a n s i t i o n a l  p e r i o d ?

A T h a t ' s  c o r r e c t .

Q Are y o u  f a m i l i a r  w i t h  a n y  l o c a l i t i e s  i n  t h e  C i t y  

of W in s t o n - S a le m  w h e r e  t h e r e  h a v e  b e e n  b l a c k s  l i v i n g  f o r  a  

long n u m b er  o f  y e a r s  a n d  w h ic h  w o u ld  n o t  b e  c h a r a c t e r i z e d  

a s  t r a n s i t i o n a l  a r e a s  a l t h o u g h  t h e y  a r e  s u r r o u n d e d  b y  w h i t e  

areas? Would y o u  p o i n t  o u t  s u c h  a r e a s  a n d  s t a t e  w h e r e  t h e y  

are in t h e  C i t y  o f  W in s t o n - S a le m ?

A As I m e n t i o n e d  e a r l i e r ,  t h e  M o r a v ia  S t r e e t  a r e a ,  

ill of my l i f e  I  c a n  r e c a l l  t a l k  a b o u t  B e l l v i e w  a n d  t h e r e  

/ere always a f e w  b l a c k s  t h e r e  w i t h  w h i t e s  s u r r o u d i n g  th e m ,

Q I  b e l i e v e  y o u  d i d  s a y  t h a t  t h e r e  h a v e  b e e n  so m e  

>lacks moving in t h a t  n e i g h b o r h o o d  i n  t h e  l a s t  f e w  y e a r s ?

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O e e i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

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A Yes, sir. That area has been extended now.
Q Southward?
A Yes. Also the Watkins Street area, whioh is very 

close to center city. I can always recall - I had friends 
who lived in this area - that’s Watkins Street off of Broad - 
down near Reynolds High School - if I can find that street. 
Up here - not on Carolina Circle, but one of the streets 
there, I have always been—  there have always been blacks 
that lived in that area. And the West 8th Street area, 
and Broad, and down in that area, there have always been 
blacks. I can remember all of my life visiting in that 
area. There have always been a few blacks who live in an 
area right off of Shattalon Road, which is way to the north 
of the city (indicating on map).

THE COURT: How do you spell Shattalon?
THE WITNESS: That’s S-h-a-t-t-a-l-o-n.
THE COURT: Thank you. You say all of your life?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is that twenty-one plus?
THE WITNESS: Thirty-nine.
MR. WOMBLE: He's thirty-nine.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Andrews, with respect 
to public housing, I show you Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 20, 
a letter from David L. Thorapkins to Mr. Bob Valder, Regional

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Director, Legal Defense Fund, Charlotte. Who is Mr. 
Thompkins?

A Mr. Thompkins is Director of Management for the 
Winston-Salem Housing Corporation.

G Is he in the same office building with you there?
A Yes.
Q And what is the relationship between your work and 

his work for the Housing Authority?
A Well, we work closely together. Again, as 

Director of Community Services, I'm to see that new social 
goals are in fact a part of public housing, and this relates 
of course to management. It's an inseparable action.

Q Do you know Mr. Valder?
A Yes, I've talked with him at Charlotte.
Q Did he talk to you about these matters that I 

have been asking you about this afternoon?
A Yes, he did.

THE COURT: Is it Mr. Thompkins?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: He is Director of what?
THE WITNESS: Management.
MR. WOMBLEs Management Director of the Housing

Authority.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, the attachments, I direct

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your attention to the attachments that are attached to 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 20 entitled "Report on Occupancy of 
Areas Housing Authority Housing". What is the policy of 
the Housing Authority with respect to the renting of units 
in the public housing?

A There is a non-discriminatory policy which is in 
effect by this Authority.

Q How long has this policy been in effect?
A Since 1964.
Q Since the Civil Rights Act?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall whether or not the initial housing - 

strike that. Do you know what the criteria were in connec­
tion with the original development of the public housing in 
the community?

A Yes, 3ir.
Q What were they?
A Back in 1937 was a slum clearance program; 

public housing was designated to go into areas where you 
cleared slum housing, to erect new housing.

Q And that is what controlled the location of it at
at that time?

A That’s right.
Q And at that time, do you know what public housing

was constructed in the city?

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A Yes, sir.
Q What projects?
A The first project was Happy Hill Gardens, which

was here—
Q Which is located where?
A That’s located in the southern area of town. If 

I might go back in my testimony as to these sections, this 
is a black area, the Alder Street area. The first public 
housing was built in this area (indicating on map).

Q That would be in the—
A In the 6 percent area.
Q The south central portion of the north part of

the 6 percent area?
A Right. That was 497 units, I believe.
Q Since 1964, this housing has been open on a non- 

discriminatory basis?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether or not any whites have applied 

to move into It or have moved into it?
A We have not gotten one white applicant.
Q All right. Now, what is the next housing project?
A The next housing project was Kimberly Park, which

is in this 34 percent area, this southern portion of it. It 
runs from Northwest Boulevard to Glenn, and then it extended 
on up the line to Larchmont Avenue.

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THE COURT: What year was that, Mr. Andrews, when
Kimberly Park was built?

THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm not sure of the date.
It's roughly fifteen years old.

THE COURT: Fifteen years more or less?
THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q (By Mr. Womble) What project - Kimberly Park, 
what designation does it have?

A Twelve-three.
Q Twelve-three?
A Yes, sir. You see, there are two sections of it. 
Q How many units are there in the Kimberly Park 

public housing?
A 556 units.
Q And what is the occupancy of those units?
A One hundred percent black occupancy.
Q And what would the next public housing unit be?
A Piedmont Park.
Q Where is Piedmont Park located?
A Piedmont Park is located in the northern area of 

the city near Smith-Reynolds Airport. It is built on the 
old fairgrounds property.

Q And what was that residential area as to race 
around the old fairgrounds property at the time Piedmont
Park was built?

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A It was white
Q What is the racial composition—  well, how many 

units are there in that project and what is the racial 
makeup of the people who live there?

A There are 236 units there, 95 are white, 143 
Negro.

Q What other public housing is there in the city?
A Cleveland Avenue Homes, with 249 units - no, 244.
Q How old is it?
A It is twelve years old. It was built in a black

area.
Q What is the occupancy of it?
A It is totally black.
Q Are there any other public housing units, that is 

other than the leased units or some of the new Turnkey jobs?
A No, there are no public housing units other than 

leased housing, which we discussed already, plus scattered 
leased housing.

Q Do you have any leased housing on West 4th Street?
A We have twelve units on West 4th.
Q Where on West 4th Street are they located?
A They are located near the Peters Creek Parkway.
Q Near the point where 4th Street runs into Peters 

Creek Parkway over there, adjoins it?
A That's correct.

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Q What is the occupancy of those units?
A All white.
Q Has your office shown those units to both white 

and black residents?
A We have.
Q What has the reaction been froa the black resi­

dents?
MR. CHAMBERS; Objection. Hearsay, Your Honor. 
THE COURT; Overruled. You have shown them to

them?
A Yes.

MR. CHAMBERS: The question was what was the
reaction to them being shown, and he was testifying 
now to what they said.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Did you offer those persons an 

opportunity to rent there?
A We did.
Q That is black persons?
A That is correct.
Q Did any of them accept the offer and agree to

live there?
A None chose to live there.

THE COURT: You say there are twelve units?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I'm not as familiar with your city as

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you are. Now, physically, I know where Peters Creek is. 
Where is that, can you tell me, or maybe you could 
point it out on the map. The one you have there is 
all right. I'll look right over your shoulder,

THE WITNESS: Twelve units right here. This is
the Peters Creek Parkway. There's a hill and there are 
some apartments that we leased from private enterprise, 

THE COURT: I see. Mr. Womble, i3 your examina­
tion going to be much longer?

MR. WOMBLE: No, sir; I think I'll be through in
Just a few minutes.

THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Do you recall any incidents in 

which - strike that. Do you recall any fairly recent 
incidents in which a black person was shown a house on 
Queen Street? Are you familiar with that?

A I'm not.
Q Now, what other types of housing - let's see now. 

You've mentioned the leased housing on 4th Street, and the 
leased housing at East Gate Village. Is there any other 
leased housing that is rented through the Housing Authority?

A Yes. We have scattered leased housing, not a 
great number of them, but we have them scattered throughout 
the city.

Q And are they available to all persons without

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discrimination on the basis of race?
A Yes.

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. He may testify what the
policy might be, but certainly not what the conclusion 
would be.

THE COURT: Re-word your question.
q (By Mr. Womble) What is the policy of the 

Housing Authority with respect to the renting of these 
leased housing units throughout the city?

A The Housing Authority operates on a non-discrimina-
tory basis in all of its programs.

q What other housing, what other types of housing 
projects does the Housing Authority have?

A We are now developing a new program, Turnkey III 
Housing. This is a public housing program released to home 
ownership. We have selected along with HUD sites in Winston- 
Salem to construct Turnkey III, which is being developed by 
private enterprise and the Housing Authority, buy them from 
private enterprise.

Q How many locations are currently included in this
program?

A We have eight locations at this point. 
q Are they shown on the map that you were looking at

there?
A Yes, sir. These are the Turnkey III sites that we

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have (indicating on map).
THE COURT: I wish you'd tell me for my notes

where they are, Just generally. Are you going to ask 
him that?

MR. WOMBLE: Yes, I will, Your Honor. I'll offer
into evidence Defendants' Exhibit 38, the renewal area 
survey form, and also as Defendants' Exhibit 39 th© 
map showing the location of housing projects.

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 39 
for identification.)

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection to the last.
THE COURT: Let the record show—
MR. CHAMBERS: On the basis of the relevance of

the documents, Your Honor. Our contention is that the 
present—  well, we are contending that the community is 
presently segregated. Practices existing prior to 
today - and they have no effect on the Court's as to 
whether the School Board must go forward and do what 
has been created in the past.

THE COURT: Accordingly let the record show the
plaintiffs' objection, and let Defendants' Exhibits 38
and 39 be received into the evidence.

(The documents above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bits Nos. 38 and 39 for identifica­
tion, were received in evidence.)

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Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, could you state 
briefly where the eight Turnkey III sites are?

A There are ninety-nine units, a 99-unit site in 
the extreme northern section of the city. The major streets 
would be Cherry Street, and actually this is Cherry Street 
Extension - that's why I say the extreme north part of the 
city. And other further description of the areas are—  do 
you want to know just where they are?

Q I think that's all right.
A The next site is Patterson Avenue Extension, near 

the King's Department Store. Another site is going to the 
east, or the northeastern section of the city, is North­
hampton Drive.

THE COURT: What section is that? The northeast
section?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Womble) East and somewhat north of the 
airport?

A Right.
Q All right.
A Another 89-unit is in the City View area that we 

discussed earlier, or off of Riedsville Road. Another 211 
units is in the Morningside Manor area, which is near the 
Bowman Gray Stadium. Another is in the Broadbay section,

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or this is off of Highway 311 or the High Point Road. The 
sixth one is on the Rose Street area off of the Clemmons- 
ville Road. And the seventh one is off of Old Lexington 
Road near Western Electric. Oh, that’s eight, that’s right.

Q The last two were seven and eight instead of six 
and seven, is that right?

A Right.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I might have one or two

other questions, but I believe that this is a good 
stopping point for the night.

THE COURT: All right; you may come down. Let's
take a recess until the morning at 9:30.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled 
case was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on January 28, 
1970.)

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P R O C E E D I N G S
’llU.. COURT: All right, Mr. Andrews; if you will

resume the stand, please. Mr. Womble, you were on direct 
examination?
WHEREUPON,

WILLIAM H. ANDREWS
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi­
fied further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, Just for the record - 

I don't think I asked you yesterday - what race are you?
A I am of the black race.
q You testified, I believe, that the Piedmont Park 

Housing Project was initially occupied by white persons?
A Yes, sir.
q When did the Board of the Housing Authority of 

the City of Winston-Salem first take action toward integra­
ting that facility, or any facility of the Housing Authority, 
as a matter of policy?

A The Commissioners of the Housing Authority on the 
28th of January, 1964, passed a resolution saying there 
would be no discrimination in housing operated by this 
Commission.

Q How soon after that was integration in public 
housing initiated in the City of Winston-Salem?

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MR. CHAMBERS: May I make an Inquiry there? You
said integration was a conclusion of law?

THE COURT: That’s true. I know the context you
lawyers use that in, Mr. Womble, and you understand
that.
Q (By Mr. Womble) How soon after that was a person 

of the black race first rented a unit in a public housing 
unit in the City of Winston-Salem?

A Approximately a month after the passage of this 
resolution.

Q And that was in a unit that was formerly occupied 
by all white—

A Right.
Q Persons?
A Right.
Q Which unit was that?
A That was In a unit in Piedmont Park.
Q Was this before or after the passage of the Civil

Rights Act of 1964?
A This action was taken before the passing of the 

Civil Rights Act of '64.
Q Do you know when the HHFA Regulations under the 

Civil Rights Act of 1964 went into effect?
A The Regulations pertaining to HHFA became effective 

January 3rd, 1965.

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0 I believe you testified yesterday that it is the 
policy of the Redevelopment Commission of the City of 
Winston-Salem to be racially non-discriminatory in relocat­
ing persons who have to move on account of urban redevelop­
ment, is that correct?

A This has been the policy since '61, as to the 
execution of urban renewal in Winston-Salem.

Q In other words, that was since the beginning of 
urban renewal in this community?

A Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLEr I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I have nothing at this time, Your

Honor.
THE COURT: Mr, Price?
MR. PRICE: Nothing, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers?

CROSS EXAMINATION
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Andrews, are you telling 

the Court that there has been no discrimination in the sale 
or rental of housing in the City of Winston-Salem?

A No, sir.
0 In fact there has been to your knowledge?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. The question is to your

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knowledge, has there been discrimination.
A As far as renewal is concerned—
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I'm not talking about that;

I'm talking about the sale or rental of housing in the 
City of Winston-Salem. To your knowledge there has been 
di scrimination?

A Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. I realize that that is—

probably strictly applying the rules of evidence, but 
I'm allowing it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Are you familiar with the 

ordinance of the City of Winston that restricted Negroes to 
certain areas of the city?

A I am fairly familiar with past ordinances, yes,
sir.

Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5* which is a map 
of the City of Winston. Starting with Plaintiffs' Exhibit 
No. 1, it's an ordinance of the City of Winston of 1912 
passed at a special meeting of the City Council of Winston 
on June 30th. I'll ask you if you will read the first 
paragraph of that ordinance on the second page.

A "Be it ordained by the Board of Aldermen of the 
City of Winston that it shall be unlawful for any colored 
person to own or occupy any dwelling - bounded, I guess -

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-1150-

this la handwritten - '’bounded east by Fourth Street 
between Depot Street and the city limits on the east."
That is that paragraph.

Q A11 right* Would you read the second paragraph?
A "Be it further ordained by the Board of Aldermen

of the City of Winston that it shall be unlawful for any 
white people to occupy as a residence any dwelling on 3rd 
Street from Depot east to Ridge Avenue."

Q Are you familiar with those sections of the city? 
A I am.

Q Have they been white and black as indicated in the 
ordinance?

A Yes.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Your question was
have they been white and black as indicated by the 
ordinance, and the answer was yes?

THE WITNESS: I would have to answer further on
the question, but this has been the fact back through 
the years. But I was born in this area.
0 (By Mr. Chambers) On Fourth Street?
A Yes.

Q Under this ordinance it restricted the area to 
whites and blacks, right?

A Right.

Q Now, would you look at the third paragraph and tell

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Q
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tiic w 0".;rt wi'.at Ulat ^VViUtfa.
A "Be it further ordained that no white people 

shall be permitted to occupy as a residence any dwelling 
on Depot Street from 6th Street north to Liberty Street."

Are you familiar1 with that area of the city?
I am.

Has that been traditionally black?
Yes.
And the fourth paragraph established a misdemeanor 

for violation of the ordinances, is that correct?
A Yes.
U I show you Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 2, and ask you to 

tell the Court what the first paragraph of that ordinance 
appearing on the second page provides.

A That it shall be unlawful for any white person to 
occupy as a residence or to establish and maintain as a 
place of public assembly any house on the street or in an 
alley between two adjacent streets of which a greater number 
of houses are occupied as residence by colored people than 
occupied by white people.

Q Would you read the second paragraph?
A "That it shall be unlawful for any colored person

to occupy as a residence or to establish and maintain as a 
place of public assembly any house upon any street or alley 
between two adjacent streets on which a greater number of

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houses are occupied in residence by white people than 
occupied as residence by colored people."

Q Does the third paragraph there require that a 
person planning to build a house indicate whether the house 
is going to be for whites or blacks?

A I'll have to read it.
MR. WOMBLE: What is that exhibit that you are

referring to?
MR. CHAMBERSi Exhibit 2.

A It does.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) These two ordinances set up a 

segregated community for the City of Winston-Salem, did they 
not?

MR. WOMBLEi Objection.
THE COURTl Sustained.
MR. CHAMBERS: May I let the record show what his

answer would have been, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may answer for the record.

A In 1912, when those ordinances were adopted, I 
would say yes.

0 (By Mr. Chambers) I show you Plaintiffs* Exhibit 
4, an ordinance for the City of Winston-Salem.

MR. WOMBLE: On that other, we would move to strike.
Your Honor. It was 1912j it's thirty-nine years old.

THE COURT: Motion allowed, but let the record

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W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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r e f l e c t  w h a t  t h e  a n s w e r  w o u ld  b e .

Q (B y  M r. C h a m b e r s )  A r e  y o u  f a m i l i a r  w i t h  t h e

z o n i n g  o r d i n a n c e  f o r  1 9 3 0 ?

A N o t  c o m p l e t e l y  f a m i l i a r .

Q A r e  y o u  f a m i l i a r  w i t h  t h e  z o n i n g  p r o v i d i n g  A - l  

r e s i d e n c e s  f o r  w h i t e  a n d  Ar-2 r e s i d e n c e s  f o r  N e g r o e s  a n d  B - l  

r e s i d e n c e s  f o r  w h i t e  a n d  B - 2  r e s i d e n c e s  f o r  N e g r o e s ?

A I  c a n ’ t  h o n e s t l y  s a y  t h a t  I  am f a m i l i a r  w i t h  t h e  

z o n i n g  o r d i n a n c e  o f  1 9 3 0 .

Q I f  y o u  w i l l  l o o k  a t  p a g e  1 3  o f  t h e  z o n i n g  o r d i ­

n a n c e  ,  w h ic h  i s  P l a i n t i f f s '  E x h i b i t  4 - A , a n d  r e a d  t h e  p a r a ­

g r a p h  t h e r e ,  S e c t i o n  1 0  o f  t h a t  o r d i n a n c e .

A " I n  A - l ,  B - l  a n d  C - l  r e s i d e n t  d i s t r i c t s ,  n o  

b u i l d i n g  o r  a  p a r t  t h e r e o f  s h a l l  b e  o c c u p i e d  o r  u s e d  b y  a  

p e r s o n  o r  p e r s o n s  o f  t h e  N e g r o  r a c e ;  p r o v i d e d ,  h o w e v e r ,  t h a t  

t h i s  s e c t i o n  s h a l l  n o t  b e  I n t e r p r e t e d  t o  p r o h i b i t  a n y  o f  

t h e  f o l l o w i n g . "

Q R e a d  t h e  e x c e p t i o n .

A " U se  o r  o c c u p a n c y  b y  N e g r o  s e r v a n t ,  c h a u f f e r u ,  o r  

o t h e r  e m p lo y e e  w h e n  e m p lo y e r  r e s i d e s  i n  t h e  sa m e  b u i l d i n g  

o r  i n  a b u i l d i n g  o n  t h e  sa m e l o t . "

Q R e a d  o n .

A " U se  o f  o c c u p a n c y  b y  a n y  p e r s o n  w h o a t  t h e  t i m e  

o f  t a k i n g  e f f e c t  o f  t h i s  o r d i n a n c e  i s  t h e  o w n e r  o f  t h e  u s e d  

o r  o c c u p i e d  b u i l d i n g  o r  o f  t h e  l o t  u p o n  w h ic h  s u c h  b u i l d i n g

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C

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may be erected, or who at said time shall have contracted 
the purchase of the same by valid and enforceable contract 
of purpose, or by his successor in title by will or descent.1'

Q The third exception?
A "Use or occupancy by a member of the immediate 

family or servant or lodger or lessee or tenant of any 
person described in the above paragraph. (B) At any or 
all times during his concurrent ownership and residence in 
or on the building or lot."

Q Would you read Section 11, the first part of 
Section 11 on page 14?

A "In a B-2 and C-2 resident districts, no building 
or part thereof shall be occupied or used by a person or 
persons of the white race; provided, however, that this 
section shall not be interpreted to prohibit any of the 
following."

Q And it provides basically the same exceptions as 
under A-l, B-l and C-l?

A Yes.
Q Look at Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5. It shows the 

zoning code A-l, and it's indicated by whites, no markings 
at all. Is that correct?

A Correct.
Q A-2 has dotted spots in it, is that correct?
A That's correct.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

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Q Would you look at the map now, at the section
that is zoned A-l and tell me - tell the Court whether that 
area has traditionally been white?

A It has.
U Is it presently white?
A There have been changes.
Q Would you indicate the changes?
A The area I mentioned yesterday, up in the northern

area, Shattalon.
Ct Where is Shattalon on the map?
A This map doesn't include all of that area, so 

let's go back. The northern part stops at 25th Street.
Q Let me rephrase the question for you then, so 

that we can move on. Is that area today predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the area indicated for A-l?

Tell the Court whether that area—  I'm sorry. A^2. Tell 
the Court whether that area has been traditionally Negro?

A Yes.
Q Is it today Negro?
A Yes, sir.
Q Look at the area indicated B-l.
A Yes, sir.
Q Has that area been traditionally white?
A It has.

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O f f k i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

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Q Is it today predominantly white?
A It is not.
0 Tell the Court the changes.
A Around 9th Street and North Winston School, up 

Patterson Avenue, Greenway - this area has changed to black 
occupancy.

q Now, take that area that you Just indicated. Is 
that the area where you relocated some families for urban 
renewal in 1962 or '63?

A Yes, sir.
Q What other area lias changed - in the B-2 zoning as 

of 1930 - B-l zoning; I ’m sorry.
A In the Ilappy Hill area, which was originally 

partially black. This has expanded to differ with 1930.
Q How did it change? From white to black or black 

to white?
A From white to black.
Q Is that an area where you also relocated some 

families?
A No. This area changed before - I would say before 

any relocation from redevelopment.
Q Would you name the streets involved in that area?
A All right. In 1930, you had up Waughtown Street,

this shows B-l, blacks have moved in the houses that remained 
there. Bailey Street, which is south of Waughtown Street,

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C

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there have been some minor changes there.
Q Is there any other area that you know from the

1930’s that has changed in the B-l zoning?
A I can't recognize any at this point. I'm not

very familiar with this.
q  with respect to the B-l zoning area where you 

indicate some change, were those changes in the eastern 
part of the city, either southeastern or northeastern part
of the city?

A Yes, sir.
0 Now, look at the B-2 zoning and tell the Court 

whether the B-2 zoning area has been traditionally Negro?
A It has.
Q Is it today Negro?
A It is.
0 Look at the C-l zoning and tell the Court whether 

that area has been traditionally white.
A It has.
Q Is it today predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the C-2 zoning and tell the 

Court whether that area has been traditionally Negro?
A Yes.
Q And is it today all Negro?
A It is.

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C 

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Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 42, which is an 
iverlay for the City of Winston. Come down here. According 
■x> the code used on this exhibit, census tracts 3, 4, 5, 6, 
r and 16 are occupied by 90 to 100 percent Negro, is that
iorrect?

A That's correct.
Q In your opinion, does that exhibit reflect the 

surrect racial population of those tracts?
A It does.
Q According to that exhibit, census tract 2 shows

B9 to 90 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q According to that exhibit, census tract 8 shows

80 to 90 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A That's correct.
q According to that exhibit, census tract 19 shows

50 to 60 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A I would hesitate to say 50 to 60 percent is

correct.
Q What percentage do you think it would be?
A There are more whites that live in this area than 

blacks. I think the percentage there is a wider spread than 
50 to 60 percent.

Q Would you tell the Court vhether the area now occu­
pied by 90 to 100 percent Negro is the same area we were

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a. a s s o c i a t e s

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.  

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-1160

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part of the city. . ̂  aastem pert of the city? q And Negroes on the eastern p
A Yos
q And that'a basically the way the city la divided

racially today, isn’t it?
A. Basically.

the COURTi Mr. Andrews, you indicate in your
T.m not familiar with Winston-Salem; I testimony - I'm not iamxxx

dlan.t grow UP here - but in this area you referred to
some area where Melees lived, you referral1 *  ’ 
area over close to Reynolds School in this white area. 
Can you show me where those- I understood they were

small areas?
TIE WITNESSt Yes, sir.
the COURT, could you show me on the map where

they are? _
the WITNESS, All right, sir. This would be one

small area in here near Reynolds High School. Another
area is Wat,ins Street, which is off of Broad again

\ t m»ntlon«ci Sh&ttoin this area (indicating on P
. v it's in the extreme northern area Ion Drive yesterday. It 3 m

of the city.
THE COURT, Where are you pointing? 
the WITNESS, This is Shattalon Drive, Tour Honor. 

There are some other ampler area, that traditionally

G R A H A M  E B L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S  

O m i U L  COURT REPORTERS 

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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through the years blacks have lived.
THE COURT: I see. All right.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Andrews, if you were giving 
a divider between the white and Negro residence in the City 
of Winston, what would you indicate would be the dividing 
line? What street or what marking?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A You might say that the dividing line might 
be Cherry-Marshall or Thurmond Street, that runs north and 
south, and of course maybe splits the town east to west.

Q Is that Cherry-Marshall and Thurmond Streets?
A And Thurmond Street, yes. They are parallel 

streets. 1 can show them to you on the map. The section 
on the western portion, you have 1-40—

Q That runs east and west?
A East and west. After you get back over to Clare­

mont Avenue or the Cemetery Street, then you would go in 
this area.

0 That’s in the southeastern part of the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just for the record again, the north-south divider 

would be Cherry-Marshall and Thurmond Streets?
A Right.
Q And the 1-40 would mark the southern divider?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

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A The western section of the city’s southern divider 
q Now, what would be the eastern section of the 

's southern divider?
A Perhaps the community of Salem east. 
q In the southeastern part of the city?

A Yes.
Q They are pretty distinct areas, aren t they?

MR. WOMBLEx ubject.
THE COURT: Sustained.

q (By Mr. Chambers) I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 
, which shows the census tract racially in the city as of 

I960. According to this exhibit, census tracts 3, 6 and 7 
have the highest concentration or had the highest concentra­
tion of Negroes in I960. In your opinion, would that be

correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in 1969, census tracts 16, 4, 5, have changed 

from what they were in I960 to now 90 to 100 percent Negro? 

A Yes.
Q i think you testified that that’s correct?

A That's correct.
q I believe you had some turban renewal location in 

census tract 4. That’s around, I believe, North Elementary

and Lowrance?
A Yes.

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS 

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C.

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-1163-

Q I think you indicated that you didn't relocate 
nost of the families there but you did relocate some?

A That's correct.
Q And I believe you indicated you relocated some 

families in census tract 16?
A That's correct.
Q Out by the airport?
A Right.
Q And that changed from 80 to 90 percent in I960 to

now 90 to 100 percent?
A Right.
0 I think you indicated you relocated some families

in census tract 5?
A Correct.
Q And that changed from 70 to 80 percent in I960 to

now 90 to 100 percent?
A That's right.
Q Again you say you didn't relocate all of the 

families there, but you did relocate some?
A Yes.
Q Plaintiffs' Exhibit 43 shows your relocation 

activity; at least that is what it has been testified to 
show. In your opinion, does that exhibit accurately reflec 
the orange shows relocation of 6 percent, that 6 percent of 
the families were relocated in the orange area. This is the

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  Sr A S S O C I A T E S

O r  f H I A L COUNT R lN O R T lR S  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.

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orange here?
A Yes, right; that's correct.
Q It shows in green that 23 percent of the families 

were relocated in the green area. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q It shows in the purple that 34 percent of the 

families were relocated there?
A That's correct.
Q It shows in the blue, up here, that 37 percent 

of the families were relocated there?
A That’s correct.
0 Now, the purple area is the area affecting census

tract 4?
A Yes.
Q The green area is the area affecting census tract

16?
A Right.
Q The blue area is the area affecting census tracts 

5 and 6?
A Yes.
Q And the orange area is the area affecting census 

tract 8?
A That's correct.
Q You went to school in the City of Winston? You 

may take a seat.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go to a Negro or white school?
A I went to a black school,
Q Which high school did you finish?
A Atkins High.
0 Were you assigned by freedom of choice or 

assigned by boundary lines, or how were you assigned to 
school, if you recall?

A As I recall, Atkins High was the only black high 
school for me to attend.

Q And all Negroes in the city went to Atkins High 
School?

A Right.
Q Was Carver in existence when you were going to 

High School?
A Yes, it was,
Q Was it the high school for Negro county students?
A That's correct.
Q What elementary school did you attend?
A Columbia Heights Elementary School.
Q How were you assigned to elementary school, if you 

recall?
A I don't recall. It was the school closest to my

home.
Q I think you indicated that you were alsc in real

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8< A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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-1166

estate, or did some real estate before you went with Urban 
Renewal?

A I worked with—  I wasn’t a real estate broker.
0 Did you pass the Board?
A No, I was not a real estate broker.
Q Were you an agent?
A I worked with my father and Ernest Johnson, who 

was in the real estate business in Winston-Salem.
0 Is either one of them a member of the Real Estate

Board in Winston?
A No, sir.
Q To your knowledge, does Winston Real Estate Board 

or real estate organization have any Negro members?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. I think we are getting a

little far afield, Mr. Chambers, but my policy is to
let you people conclude and answer these questions.
Go ahead.
A Not to my knowledge.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you tell the Court what 

multiple listing is?
A Yes. The multiple listing agency is set up by the 

realtors in the City of Winston-Salem; they list individu­
ally in this collective listing agency.

Q They list all of the houses?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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A That the member groups of the multiple listing 

>rvice have, ye3, sir.
Q what restrictions does one who is not a member

f that board have?
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Do you know what the restrictions are?

THE WITNESS: No.
(By Mr. Chambers) You don't know of any limitaQ

.on?
No.

O Does he get a chance to know about all the houses 
reliable for rental in the City of Winston-Salem?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: He said he didn't know about this.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know all of the mechanics

of the multiple listing service.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Let me ask you. Mr. Andrews, 

Idn't you say yesterday that you talked to Mr. Robert

alder?
A Yes.
q Do you recall talking to him about multiple

Listing in Winston-Salem?
A Yes.
q Would you tell the Court what you told Mr. Valder 

about the multiple listing in Winston-Salem?

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

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A I told him that I did not receive the multiple 
listing service sheet, that we had worked with leading real 
estate people and we got individual listinge of houses.

Q Would you tell the Court what limitations multiple 
listing, or the lack of multiple listing would impose?

A One would possibly miss a complete listing of 
all housing available.

Q In the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall when you were working with the real 

estate agent whether houses were listed in the City of 
Winston according to race, advertised in the newspaper?

A I recall this being advertised, yes.
Q You had a colored and a white section, is that 

right?
A Right.
U Basically folowing the same pattern there, Negro

on the east side and whites on the west side?
A Correct.
Q You are familiar with the denial of services to 

Negroes in public services in the City of Winston?
MR. V/OMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, are we going into all

those areas? There are many of them, of course, that
could be explored. We have to wrestle with this—  my

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

WINSTON SALEM. N C

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policy in these oases, having Included the defendants 
MR. CHAMBERS: I Just want to put that question

to him. His testimony yesterday was to establish that 
public housing and urban renewal had not had any effect 
a, the racial pattern In the community, and we in pre­
senting evidence relevant to the requirements of 
Brewer vs. the School Board of Norfolk, and there the 
Court said whether public and private action had had 
any part in segregation In the community, end we think 
that that will affect it, not only the sal. and rental 
of housing but also discriminatory practices in public 
accomodation. We've got a hotel her. and a motel

there—
MR. WOMBLEi Your Honor, we do object to this 

testimony as not having relevance, end the Brewer case. 
It seems to us that there are actually two thing, that 
are significant that bear on this. Number one is that 
in the Brewer case, it is not actually talking about 
history; it is talking about the situation as it exists, 
and the court uses this language: "Assignment of pupll-
to neighborhood schools is a sound concept but it 
cannot be approved if residence in a neighborhood is 
denied to Negro pupils solely on the ground of color." 
This case was decided May 31, 1968. Within two and a 
half weeks after this case was decided, the Supreme

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Court handed down the decision in Jones vs. Mayor on 
June 16th, 1968, barring all racial discrimination, 
public or private, in the sale or rental of property.

Now, regardless of what history was, the law is 
that a person may not be denied the right to purchase 
or to rent on account of race, and that has been the 
clear law since about two weeks after Brewer came down. 
And to go into these things that are history, we say, 
is not relevant under Brewer and the only reason - the 
only point that we can see is for some historical data 
purpose that really doesn't have a bearing on today’s 
lew.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I won’t belabor the
point—

THE COURT: I'm going to let you go ahead, Mr.
Chambers. I somewhat wonder about the real pertinency 
of it, but I'm going to let you go ahead. Overruled; 
you may answer the question, if you remember what it 
was. Could you repeat it, Mr. Chambers?

MR. CHAMBERS: I'll repeat it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) You are familiar with the 

prior practices here in the City of Winston denying accommo­
dations to Negroes in places of public accommodation?

MR. WOMBLE: We object.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Restaurants, hotels—

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—

A
THE COURT: Overruled; you may answer. 
I am, Mr. Chambers.

Q You are familiar with Tanglewood Park? 
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

0 That’s in the County of Winston?
A I am.
Q Which excludes Negroes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you vent with the Urban Renewal Commission

in 1961?
A Right, sir.
0 And you stated that the policy of the Commission

at that time was not to discriminate against Negroes?
A That's correct.
Q I think you stated that you relocated 1615 families

from 1961 to the present?
A That's correct.
Q Is it true that all of those families were re-

located in all Negro or areas that were changing to Negro?
A That's correct.
Q Is it true that you knew at the time that you

relocated those families that those areas were changing to 
Negro?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.

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THE COURT: Overruled.
A Not all areas, no.
u (By Mr. Chambers) Which areas did you not know?
A The Heitman Drive area, which is south of town.
0 Southeast?
A Yes, sir.
p That’s part of the 6 percent?
A That’s correct.
0 You knew that all of the northeastern areas were

either all Negro or changing to all Negro?
A At the time of the first relocation into the Green­

way area, I did not think that it would change to an all 
black area.

G Where is that?
A This was north, north of town. I have reason 

for thinking this, if you want to question me.
0 Thinking that it would not change?
A Yes.
0 What other area did you not think was going to 

change to all Negro?
A No other areas.
U Was there any other area that you knew was going 

to change to Negro?
A Yes.
0 You knew that about the area around Lowrance

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Elementary School and North Elementary?
A This is the north Winston area that we were Just 

referring to.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I ’m not going to let

you ask if he knew any more. He could have an opinion 
about itj somebody can’t know what something is going 
to do, you know, like that. And I am sure Mr. Andrews 
is not trying to be dishonest, but that puts him in a 
bad light. He couldn’t know. All right; go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Well, is it a fact, Mr. 

Andrews, that all of the areas have now changed to all 
Negro?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. I believe he’s testified

to that before, but I'll let you answer.
A The Heitman Drive area has not changed to all 

Negro. It is predominantly Negro; there are still roughly 
six to eight families in the — white families in the north 
Winston area.

Q Is that the only exception?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you also relocated some families who

were uprooted because of Highway 52?
A That portion that runs through the urban renewal

area, yes, sir.

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q Did that include, or were those families involved
there, were they part of the 1615?

A Yes, sir.
Q Have you relocated any white families?
A We have been called upon by the Highway Commission 

to assist them in relocating some white families in the 
southern portion of Highway 52. We have not in fact re­
located any; we have let the Highway Commission use our
current referral booking, listings.

q so from 1961 to the present, the Urban Renewal
Commission has not relocated any white families?

A No, sir.
q You testified about public housing, and you say

that Happy Hill Carden was the first public housing project

in the City of Winston?
A That’s correct.
Q Was it built for Negroes?
A It was.
q Located in a Negro area?
A Yes, sir.
q Was it located on a vacant lot?
A Some of the land was vacant, and I understand some 

structures, some dilapidated structures were t o m  down.
u you indicated that Kimberly Park was the second

public housing?

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  Si a s s o c i a t e s

official COURT Reporters 

A S H E  D R I V E  

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Phone: 765 0636



-1175

* ■»+■ TVm't was built in "two The first section of it. Th

Was that built lor Negro?

Yes, slr‘ _
tad piedmont Par*, the third proj.ot, we. built

for whites?
A That's correct.
Q Cleveland Avenue was built in a Negro area?

A That's correct.
q Was it built for Negroes, too?

A it was.
q  tod you had a seoond addition to Kimberly Par*. 

Now, the only white project you had was Piedmont Par*?

A That's correct.
o And you say that that Is now ninety percent Negr
A NO. Those figures were Introduced yesterday;

there were 240-some residents there, and don’t recall —  there
e on I think 90 white families and the bala there were 90, i xnxiu*

were blac*. I would have to refer to those figures.
o But you haven’t had any white families

into an all Negro project?
A we have not had the first applicant. 
u well, you haven't had the a p p l i e d  but you also

haven't put a family in?
A That’s correct.

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q  You indicated that you had some leased units?
A Yes, sir.
q  Do you recall how many leased units you had?
A Roughly 150.
q  Are any whites in the leased units?
A Yes, sir.
0 Would you indicate on the map where they are?
A West Fourth Street, right here (indicating on map) 

West Fourth near the Peters Creek Parkway, which is this 
area. That's where there are leased units there.

Q That's all white?
A That's all white.
Q And that would be in census tract 11?
A I think it's 9, sir, I»m not sure. Let me check.

Yes.
Q And that census tract is 0 to 10 percent black?
A White.
Q It's 90 percent white according to that?
A Yes.
Q how many units do you have leased for Negroes?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT* Overruled.

q (By Mr. Chambers) How many units are leased by
the Housing Authority that are occupied by Negroes?

A Again, Mr. Chambers, I would have to refer to

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actual figures there.
Q You don’t have those with you?
A I didn't bring those today.
Q Do you have an approximate figure?
A Beg your pardon?
U Do you have an approximate figure?
A Yes, I would say approximately 150 units are 

leased. I would estimate that 20 of them would be leased 
to white.

Q You indicated twelve were in census tract 9; where
would the other eight be?

A In either census tract 9 or 10.
0 Let’s see. Census tract 10 would also be 90 per­

cent white?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, where would the leased units to Negroes be?
A We have 100 units that would be in census tract 17» 

I believe. I'll look a little closer. Yes, New Walkertown 
Road; it's east. Here you are right here, New Walkertown 
Road (indicating on map).

Q They would be in the city limits, would they?
A Yes. All public housing is in the city.
Q Would it show on your city map?
A Yes, sir. Of course I marked it on the map that 

was put into evidence yesterday.

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Q Looking in Defendants’ Exhibit 39—
A Here you are right here, Old Walkertown Road.
Q Now, what school would be near that unit?
A Well, Mr. Chambers, if I might say, this is 100

units of leased housing for the elderly.
Q And that's occupied by all Negro?
A No, sir. Ninety-ten, 90 percent black occupancy.
Q Well, is that a Negro residential area?
A Yes, sir, it is now.
Q Well, where is the other leased unit for Negroes?
A All right, here they are. Spotted all around here 

are six units. Here - they are all in this color (indica­
ting on map).

0 Is that a Negro area?
A No. Well, yes, this is, yes.
q Well, what other area would be leased?
A Here's one. They're scattered all around. There's 

at least one structure in a community; this is the reason 
for having these dots.

Q I see. Now, is any in those areas west of the 
line you indicated would be a divider?

A Yes, sir.
Q Would you indicate those?
A Twelve units that I just mentioned.
Q Well, those twelve units occupied by whites?

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Q
A

Yes, sir.
I'm ..lung about any units now rented to Negroes. 

No.
q They're all on the east side of that dividing

.ne, aren’t they?
A Yes.
q NOW, yesterday you also talked about some Turnkey

abs that you were considering?
A That's correct.
q Now, you have them marked on Defendants' Exhibit

A That's correct.
Q How many of those units are on the west aide of

le dividing line?
A These two.
q Would there be two or Just one?
A Two. 4
q What's the name of those units?
A Wall, I can give you the areas. Tomrlch Corpora-

icn is building 99 units - this is sailed Cherry View, 
rhlch is the northend and west of this line. Housing, 
incorporated built 222 units, Patterson Avenue Extension. 
,hich is north of town and out of the area that we have 
Inscribed as black or traditionally the black areas. Would

fou want me to—

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Q Wait a minute. Didn’t you tell me that Cherry
Street was the dividing line?

A Yes. When we talk about the Cherry Street—  

from the map you have used, in this area that has been 
traditionally all black areas.

Q We’re talking about Cherry running north and 
south, and the housing unit you are now referring to by 
being built by Housing, Inc., is east of that line, isn't 
it?

A It is, yes.
Q It's east of the Cherry Street?
A Yes, but it is not east of the area that we refer 

to down in central city, where we talked about tradition 
in the ’30 map, where blacks have lived traditionally.
This is still traditionally all white.

U What elementary school is in that area?
A I would have to get the maps and so forth for that 

area, but it would be all white. There are no traditionally 
all black schools in that area, none at all.

Q That is on Forest Hill Avenue?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Patterson Avenue?
A In that area. It won't come down to Patterson 

Avenue; it's up back in the area of Forest Hills.
Q Highway 52—

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1 A Is near it, yes. That’s the expressway.
2 Q The other units are also east of this dividing
3 line of Cherry Street?
4 A No, sir. Northampton Drive.
5 0 Is that east of Cherry Street?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Aren’t all the other unite east of Cherry Street?
8 They’re on the east side of the city, aren't they?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Aren’t they in predominantly Negro areas?
11 A They are not.
12 Q Which ones are not?
13 A All right.
14 0 I«m talking about those east.
15 A Northampton Drive is a white area. On the west
16 side of this Northampton site is a black, a traditionally
17 black area, Butterfield Drive in here. So what you have
18 done is actually, you'll have as many in this Northampton
19 area as you have here.
20 Q But you’ve got Negroes on the west side?
21 A You have Negroes on the west side of this site.
22 yes, sir. But whites on the east side.
23 Q Isn't that near Carver School?
1*1 A Yes, sir, this is near Carver School. The next
V site, 89 units is in what w. call the City View area.

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Q That isn’t a Negro area?
A No. The City View area is mixed; it’s a mixed

rea.
Q What census tract is that in?
A In 17.

THE COURT: How about pointing that out there?
Put your finger on it. I see; all right.
A So again, the City View area is in a mixed area.

Che next site is 211 units, which is in a mixed area of
Morningside Manor.

Q What census tract is that in?
THE COURT: That's over near Winston Lake?
THE WITNESS: Near Salem Lake, across from Bowman

Gray Stadium. 18.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Is it south of Old oalem or

north of Old Salem?
A It is east of Old Salem.
Q Well, is it north?
A Southeast.
Q Southeast.
A In this area, Mr. Chambers. Blacks have begun to 

move into the Morningside area, but if you’ll note on the 
map, here when you go out to Waughtown Street and in those
areas, it is totally 100 percent white.

q i thought Morningside was a changing neighborhood.

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A That's what I sayj Momingside is changing, hut
Momingside represents about 200 homes.

Q Changing from white to black?
A Yes.

THE COURT: How can you say it is changing? I
don't understand that. You can see people moving in, 
but it can't be known what is going to happen in there, 
can it? Well, it is changing from one, we will say, 
from all white to mixed. That we all know.

THE WITNESS: Right, sir. The people in Moming­
side say they aren't changing, and they're trying to 
stabalize the community and efforts have been made to
do that.
q (By Mr. Chambers) That was also done around

North Elementary School, wasn't it?
A I'm not familiar with what has been done. The

65 unit., Vector, near High Point Road going south. Again, 
this is a white area. Uo units, Westminister and Rosie 
Street; there are whites and blacks in the area. And 1A8 
units on Old Lexington Road; there is a mixture - higher
percentage of whites than blacks.

q why aren't there some units on the western side
of the city?

A We have not been able to get land. Land costs 
involved, keeping in mind that the Turnkey III is to supply

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homes that are needed for low Income families. After 
private enterprise amasses land and comes up with a pro­
posal to the Housing Authority, than we contract to acquire 
these houses when they are finished.

Q I don't belive you even have a public housing 
project on the west side of town, do you?

MR. WOMBLEt Object.
THE COURTi Overruled.

A The twelve units of leased housing is the closest 
thing that we might have.

Q And that’s in census tract 9. And I think you 
told me that your dividing line here was this street here?

A N o , s i r .

Q Okay.
THE COURT: The point has been made that you

haven't through the Commission, Mr. Andrews, relocated 
whites. Now, tell me about relocation. How do you 
select areas to redevelop?

THE WITNESS: These areas are selected after the
Planning Board declares an area blighted, substandard. 
From that action, then the Planning Board presents to 
the Winston-Salem Board of Aldermen its findings.
After this, the Redevelopment Commission Is directed 
by the Board of Aldermen to take or to apply for 
federal funds to execute an urban renewal project in

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this particular area.
THE COURT* Then when the Planning Board comes up 

with the area, you take the people in there and try to 
relocate those people and try to find them homes?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: And so far, you say, you haven't

relocated any—  there have been no whites in those
areas, Is that right?

THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.
THE COURT: That'b the reason you haven't relocated

whites?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further, Mr.

Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.

a (By Mr. Chambers) Hr. Andrews, haven’t you had 
some whites to relocate in the urban renewal area?

A No, sir.
0 Do you recall telling Mr. Womble that you had 53

white families that you found there homes?
A No, sir, I did not. In fact, we have not had

whites in the renewal area. I think again you are referring 
to Highway 52 South, where the Highway Department had the 
responsibility and they asked us if they could use our 
referral list, because we were in the business of talking

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1 with real ©state people.
2 Q Didn’t you Just tell me that you relocated the 

Negroes who were involved in Highway 52?
A Yes, I said that was in the Highway 52, in the 

urban renewal area. That was less than a nils of Highway 
52 that went through this area, which I’d like to point ou 
to you, hut it was in these areas that you mentioned on 
predominantly or all black areas. That ran from 3rd Stree 
to Liberty Street, in the urban renewal area.

Q Is that why you relocated them?
A Yes, sir, we had the responsibility. 
q Some developments you used yesterday, Northwood 

Estates, Cumberland Road, do you remember when Northwood
Estates were built?

A Yes.
q was it built and advertised for Negroes?
A I don’t recall it being advertised for Negroes.

It was built in a Negro area, yes.
Q Wasn’t there an ad run in the newspaper, in the

Winston newspaper?
A Northwood Estates was advertised, but I don't 

recall its being advertised for Negroes. 
q You don't recall then?
A No, sir.

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A Yes, sir.
q Was that built and advertised for Negroes?
A That area was built - lots were sold in that area 

and individuals built thdr homes, again in a traditionally
Negro area.

Q Were there other areas that you indicated?
Spalding and Winston Lake Estates, were they built and 
advertised for certain racial groups?

MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT* Overruled.

A I can't testify to their being advertised. They
were built in traditionally Negro areas, yes.

Q That’s been true of white projects that have been
built in the city, too?

A White projects?
q Are you telling the Court, Mr. Andrews, that you 

don't recall the developments being built and advertised for 
Negroes and you worked as a real estate agent?

A That's correct. Not advertised for blacks, no. 
q Were they listed with your real estate agency?
A Yes, sir.
q Were they listed with white agencies?
A I can't testify to that.
q do you know of any white agents that carried

either one of those projects?

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A No.
Do you recall—  well, give me some developmentsQ

on the western side of the city.
A There are British Woods, Salem Woods, any number 

of them.
Q Do you recall when British Woods was developed?
A Yes, sir.
0 Was it built for whites?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURTi When was British Woods started?
THE WITNESS* Approximately 1954, *55.
THE COURT* Did you have anything to do with it, 

were you connected with it?
THE WITNESS* No, sir.
THE COURT* Mr. Chambers, I hardly see how he could 

conclude that; unless you lay some background for his 
conclusion, I sustain the objection.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) When were you working with the 

real estate agency?
A You mean—
Q What years?
A You mean before I went with the Redevelopment 

Commission?
Q Yes, before you went with the Redevelopment 

Commission?

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A I would say—  I came back here in '5^, end '55 Mr*
Johnson died, I think, in '55 or '56.

Q So you worked from '55 to *61, or '56 to '61?
A I worked with Mr. Johnson from '5^» when I

back here, until he died in '56, and I've always worked 
with my father.

q During the time that you worked in real estate 
with your father and with Mr. Johnson, did you have any 
listing of a white home?

A No, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS* I have nothing further.
THE COURT* Mr. Womble?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) During that time, did you try to 

get a listing of a white home?
A I did not.

THE COURT* Mr. Womble, will your examination be 
protracted?

MR. WOMBLE* There will be a few questions, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT* All right, Mr. Andrews, you may come
down for a moment, please.

You may smoke out in the halls, and the 3ury room 
is out over here and you may smoke in there, those 
connected here, and someone will notify you at about

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the time we are to come back in, so that you will know 
we are about to start. Let's take a short recess•

(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT* All right, Mr. Andrews, will you 

return to the stand, please sir?
q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Andrews, Mr. Chambers 

asked you about a 1912 ordinance, and you read from that 
ordinance a provision to the effect that only white persons 
might reside on Fourth Street between Depot Street and the 
city limits to the east. Do you recall that?

A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you born?
A I was born on East Fourth Street at the corner 

of Linden Street.
q Is that in the area that under the 1912 ordinance 

was limited to white persona?
A That's correct.

THE COURTt Do I understand that you ware born 
within the area that you say that the ordinance set 
out was for residences of white people?

THE WITNESS! Yes, sir.
THE COURT* You were b o m  in 1930?
THE WITNESS* That's correct. 

q (By Mr. Womble) I show you Plaintiffs* Exhibit 5, 
which is a 1930 zone map of the City of Winston-Salem, and

graham erlacher a associates 
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direct your attention "to an aros that appears 'to ba-- well, 
according to the map, this ia up at the north part of town 
and it ia bounded on the north by what street?

A 30th.
Q And then it comes down along the west boundary 

along what street?
A This is Oakley there. The name has been changed.
Q Do you know the present name of that street?
A Greenway continues on up there.
Q How many blocks west of Patterson Avenue is Oakley

Street, now Greenway?
A That is Fourth Street over, Bon Air Avenue and 

then Greenway.
Q Then the north line of this area takes a right 

angle turn to the west along—
A 25th Street.
Q Is that 25th or 27th Street?
A 27th, yes.
Q For approximately how many blocks?
A Approximately three to four blocks.
Q And then coming south it follows what appears to

be a creek, does it?
A That's correct.
Q Down to about what street?
A Down to Burton Street,

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1 Q And then it goes east on Rirton and what other
street?

A Glenn Avenue.
Q And continuing on east in a northeasterly

direction, it goes how far to the east?
A Patterson - let's see now. Again, this was

Acreage Street; that street has changed; I'm not sure if
I can remember.

Q How many blocks east of Patterson Avenue is it?
A One, two, three, four blocks. Four blocks east

of Patterson Avenue.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned

as—
' A A—1 •

i Q
As A-l, which I believe was a white residential

8 district in the ordinance that you read?

' A That's correct.

‘ Q What is the racial composition of that district
9 now?
° A It is predominantly black.

' °
Now, I show you an area in the northeastern part

a of this map that is bounded on the north by about what
15 street?

14 * 26th Street.

“  Q
And generally on the west by what street, or Just

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a little bit east?
A Liberty Street.
Q Just a bit east of Liberty Street, is it?
A That's correct.
Q And it goes down how far south?
A It goes down to 16th Street.
Q And then on the east, it goes—
A This is a creek, and presently that's called

Bowen Boulevard.
Q What is that?
A That is Manchester Street.
Q Is that still known as Manchester Street?
A Yes, it still is.
Q That's more or less the eastern border of that

area, isn't it?
A That's correct.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned

for what kind of residential use?
A That was A-l residential.
Q Which according to the ordinance you read would be

restricted to which race?
A To the white race.
Q What is the racial composition of that area now?
A It is black.
Q I now direct your attention to an area in the

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central eaetern portion of this map which is bounded 
generally on the north by what street?

A 7th Street.
Q And on the west by what street?
A Highland Avenue.
Q And on the south by what street?
A Generally Belews and East First Streets.
Q And on the east?
A By Brushy Fork Creek,
Q Which at that time was the eastern corporate 

limits of the city, was it?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned 

for occupancy by persons of what race?
A The white race.
Q What is the racial composition of that area today?
A It is black today.
Q I direct your attention to a relatively small area 

lying east and southeast of Salem Cemetery on this map, 
bounded on the west by what is that street?

A It says Park Avenue; it is now Cemetery Street.
Q Cemetery or Salem Avenue?
A Salem Avenue runs all the way around (indicating 

on map).
Q What was that area immediately on the east side of

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then Park Avenue and now Salem Avenue, east of Salem Cemetery 
What was that then zoned for?

A That was A-l, or all white.
Q What is the situation in that area today?
A You have had some industries move in this area. 

There are some blacks in rental units here; these houses 
were on the east side of Salem Avenue, they’re white.

Q Now, I direct your attention to an area that is 
immediately south of Salem Water Works on this map, and 
east of Claremont Avenue. In that area is Claremont Avenue 
still known as Claremont Avenue?

A No, it's known as Stadium Drive in this area.
Q And east of Stadium Drive over to the corporate 

limits when this area was zoned for residence by what?
A A—1 or for the white race according to this map.
Q What is the racial composition of that area now?
A It is a mixed area.
Q By "mixed", you mean black and white?
A That's right.
Q Now, the limit of this map on the north is 

generally—
A 25th Street, in that area*'
Q Where is 25th Street today with reference to the 

northern boundary of the corporate limits of the City of 
Winston-Salem?

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A It 1b several miles away.
Q You mean—  *
A I can point out on this map. The area we were 

referring to, 25th Street shown on this map, that is 
roughly in this area, it is generally here. And of course 
you can see the boundary up here.

Q In other words, the corporate limits have extended 
now - let’s see, using the scale of that map, approximately 
how far north?

A One inch equals one-half mile, so we take this 
point right here - like I said, roughly two miles.

Q Have the corporate limits of the City of Winston- 
Salem extended east and west and south also sinoe then?

A It has.
THE COURT: What is the map exhibit number you

have there again, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: This particular one, Your Honor, is

Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5.
Q (By Mr. Womble) At the time the Housing Authority 

projects - Happy Hill Gardens and the others - were built, 
what was the purpose of the projects with respect to 
residential housing?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
Q (By Mr. Womble) In other words, was it to simply 

tear down the slum housing and provide better housing for

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people In those areas, or was it some other purpose?
THE COURT* Overruled.

A The purpose of the public housing was slum 
clearance and to provide housing for low Income families*

Q Was its purpose to affect the residential com­
plexion of any neighborhood one way or the other as far as 
race was concerned?

MR. CHAMBERS* Objection.
THE COURT* Are you familiar with the purpose of 

it, Mr. Andrews?
THE WITNESSl I'm familiar with the Housing Act 

of 1937.
MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, may I inquire whether 

he has been given an instruction of the Act itself, 
which would be a conclusion of law? We will stipulate 
to what the Act—

MR. WQMBLEt Let's get what the result was.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead, move on.

Q (By Mr. Womble) Answer the question.
A The construction of public housing was to provide 

housing for low income families and as a slum clearance 
effort at the same time.

Q Were the residents of the slum housing the same 
residents of the public housing when it was completed?

A Yes, sir.

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MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't know what he

said, the residents of the slum housing the same ones 
as the public housing. What time are we talking about 
and what area?

THE COURT: I don't know either, Mr. Chambers.
MR. WOMBLE: I'm talking about the race of the

persons who were residing in the substandard or slum 
houses that were cleared and the raoe of the persons 
who were moved into the public housing when the public 
housing was contructed at the clearance of the sub­
standard or slum area s , slum houses.
A This is true with the exception of Piedmont Park,
Q (By Mr. Womble) What was the situation there?
A That was in an area that was testified previously 

that was in the A-l area, which was all white.
Q The persons who originally moved into that housing 

were of what race?
A Were all white.
Q But now it is predominantly black?
A Yes, sir.
Q But it is mixed?
A Yes.
Q Does the Housing Authority undertake to find

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residences for persons without an application for housing?
A No, sir. People must make application to public 

housing, the various agencies. Social agencies refer 
people to the Housing Authority to be housed.

Q So all of those for whom you have found hmn»in£ 
have been people who have applied for housing?

A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you testified that the Redevelopment

Commission had not used the multiple listing service in 
obtaining listings for your use in connection with the 
relocation of persons. Why did you not utilize that service?

A Mainly the multiple listing service, as I under­
stood it at the time and do now, dealt with houses that 
were in a financial range which was above the people who 
were being displaced in this urban renewal area. Families 
with incomes of less than $3,000.00 a year were 49 percent 
of the people in this blighted area. There would be no 
point in getting multiple listings to show them $40,000.00 
homes or rental houses that rented for $200.00 a month.

Q And where were the listings? Well, I believe 
you've already stated the sources of your listings, and 
they cover the whole community, is that correct?

A That’s correct,
MR. WOMBLEi I think that’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?

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MR. VANORE: No questions.
MR. PRICE* No questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers?

RECROSS EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Chambers) I think you testified yesterday 

that of the 1615 people you relocated, 177 purchased homes?
A Yes, sir.
0 Where were those homes?
A Mr. Chambers, they were in these areas that I 

furnished you with the vidnitiea. They are all involved in 
those areas.

Q What price ranges were they?
A From seven to possibly twenty. Northwood
Q Some of them moved into Northwood Estates?
A Yes, sir.
q I think you testified that those prices ran from

$10,000.00, $15*000.00, $20,000.00?
A Yes, sir, some of them are a little higher. 
q I believe the prices in those ranges are carried 

in multiple listing even here in Winston-Salem?
A Yes.
q According to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5, In your opinior 

would 90 percent of the white residential areas be on the
west side of the city?

MR. WCMBLEl Object.

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THE COURT: Overruled.
A West and southwest.
q Would approximately 90 percent of the Negro 

residential areas be on the east side of town?
A Yes, sir.
q According to your opinion, would 90 peroent of 

the Negroes today be on the east side of town in the City 

of Winston?
MR. WOMBLE: I think that's what I understood him

to ask him before.
MR. CHAMBERS: This is Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 5.
MR. WOMBLE: He said where they lived.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: If you don't understand the question,

you may ask him to clarify it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) In your opinion, would 90 per­

cent of the Negroes today In the City of Winston be living 

on the east side of town?
A Yes, sir.
q in your opinion, would 90 percent of the whites 

in the City of Winston be living on the west side of town? 
A West and southwest, yes.
0 Basically the same as the Exhibit 5 shows there? 

A No.

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Q I'm talking in terms of the sections of the city, 
est and east. I’m talking about percentages. Would 90 
ercent of the whites, according to this exhibit, be in the
est side of the city?

A Yes, sir.
Q And that’s basically the same today?
A Yea.
q Not in the same areas, but west of the city?
A Right.
Q And 90 percent of the Negroes, according to this 

nap, would be on the east side of the city?
A Yes.

MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT 

a On your multiple listing, Mr. Andrews, maybe I hav 
overlooked something in your testimony, was your decision
not to get that multiple listing?

A Right. This was my decision, and the surveys
that I mentioned yesterday, and we knew the people that we 
were dealing with, what their incomes were, and It was my 
decision to make an all-out effort to get housing units 
that they could afford, plus their choice.

q No one has denied you of the multiple listing?
A No, sir.
Q When we talk about a multiple listing, I can just

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iee a sheet of paper with many houses on it. Is that what
.t is?

A That’s correot.
Q And. that you can get from all realtors who are

lembers of the realty board, or whatever organization it is?
A Right.
Q As I understand you, it was your Judgment that 

fou not get those?
A Right. I have—  in some instances some of the 

real estate people have pulled from their multiple — from 
their real estate books structures that were sent to them 
as part of the multiple listing service. This is Just a 
little more extensive than Just a listing! however, we have 
pictures of the structure and the type of heat it uses, and
it goes into some extent.

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, may I follow up on
that?

THE COURT: Yes.
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION 

q (By Mr. Chambers) Didn't you testify a moment 
ago that a man had to be a member of multiple listing in
order to get it?

A Yes, sir.
Q And you are not a member?
A I am not a member. I testified that I could go to

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real estate people that I am dealing with who are members 
of the multiple listing service, and from his book I might 
get one of the structures that he has there.

Q You don't get the multiple listing?
A I don't get the multiple listing.
Q No one gets it unless he is a member of the

multiple listing system here in Winston?
A That's right.
Q And presently only white real estate members are 

members of that system?
A Right.
Q Do you know whether the multiple listing in 

Winston-Salem is carried according to race?
A I couldn't answer it.
0 Isn't it a fact, Mr. Andrews, that it is carried 

for—  that there are separate books for white and the Negro 
homes?

A No, sir, that's not the fact. I have 3ust had a 
recent experience of a black man who bought a house from the 
multiple listing service that many of us might know.

Q I'm asking you don't you have two separate books?
A I can't answer that, Mr. Chambers; I don't know
Q You don't recall?
A No, sir. I don't know.

THE COURT: I realize that you have had experience

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in the real estate business, but you are not a realtor? 
THE WITNESS! I am not, right.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) There are some Negro realtors 
in Winston-Salem?

A One who is active at the present time.
Q And you worked with a Negro realtor, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.

MR. CHAMBERS: Nothing further.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

q (By Mr. Womble) You also work with white realtors,

don't you?
A That's correct.
Q And through them you can get any listing of 

houses that they have on multiple listing that you might be 
interested in, is that correct?

A That is true.
Q Mr. Andrews, as of 1930, what percentage of the 

white population of the community, according to this map, 
would you say was in the eastern half of the city? Would it
bo as much as 90 percent as of 1930?

A Not according to this map, it would not be. It 
is hard for me really to pinpoint the percentage here, but 
a quick glance would indicate that perhaps AO percent of 
the whites lived in this eastern part, from this map, and

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have 60 percent in the west.
Q In 1930?
A From that map.

MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. VANORE: No questions.
MR. PRICE: No questions.
MR. CHAMBERS: No questions.
THE COURT: All right; you may come down, Mr.

Andrews.
(Witness excused.)

THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble?
Mil. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I would like first to

put into evidence the State Board of Education answer 
to plaintiffs' interrogatory number 8, including that 
part of the answer that shows the requirements for 
graduation from high school.

CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' Exhibit
No. 40.

THE COURT: Are you familiar with thiB, Mr.
Chambers?

MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir, it's already one of our
exhibits.

THE COURT: And that's which exhibit number?
CLERK IDOL: 40.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendant

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a. a s s o c i a t e s

O f f i i t a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N  C  

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SchOOl Board Exhibit No. 40 is received into the 

evidence.
(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. AO 
for identification and was received 
in evidence.)

MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to recall Mr. Ward to the
stand, Your Honor, but may we excuse Mr. Andrews?

MR. CHAMBERS: We have no objection.
THE COURT: All right; thank you, Mr. Andrews.

HEREUPON:
MARVIN M. WARD

laving been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi­

fied further as followsi
DIRECT EXAMINATION

a (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you Defendants'
Exhibit 41 and ask you what that is?

(The document above referred to was 
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 41 
for identification.)

A This exhibit Bhows the new faculty ratios as 
existed yesterday in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School

System.
q  I believe you previously testified through 

Defendants' Exhibit 3 and oral testimony concerning It that 
as of the beginning of the 1969-70 school year, there were 
approximately 296 teachers teaching across racial lines, 1:

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.  

P H O N E :  7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6



that correct?
A Thct is correct.
q When did the Board of Education of the Vinston-

Salem/Forsyth County School System request you to make a

change in the faculty ratio?
A i Believe on December the 26th, the School Board

asked us to develop a plan for the new faculty ratios, and 
I believe the School Board ordered it done on January 14th, 
to become effective at the end of the first semester.

0 Explain what your criteria were and what was done 
to effect the changes that have resulted in the new faculty

ratio?
A After the School Board made their decision on the 

26th, an advisory committee composed of eight teachers 
representing professional organizations, four principals, 
three Board members, and two instructional staff members, 
worked to formulate plans and policies for this exchange, 
and the decisions made by this group Included devising a 
plan for random number selection for the Identification of 
the people to be reassigned, to make it as Impartial as 
possible. Then that the necessary assistance would be 
given to the personnel department by our research depart­
ment to make this change in a rapid fashion and do it 
effectively, and that the selection and the reassignment of 
teachers would attempt to balance faculties as nearly as

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8, A S S O C I A T E S  

OFFI C IAL C O U R T  REPORTERS 

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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-1209-

isslble from an experience basis, but It would be done with 
random number selection. Then it eliminated certain 
roups of people from the reassignment. The first stipula- 
Lon was that teachers who would be sixty-five years of age 
y July 1st, 1971 would be eliminated) all of the school 
rlncipals and all of the assistant principals approved by 
he School Board) the teachers of special education and 
entally retarded - both are retainable - and hearing handi- 
ap, speech handicap, vision handicap, and emotionally dis- 
;urbed would not be included. The one teacher of a ten- 
lonth experimental program, the teachers who were already 
reaching across racial lines, the teachers assigned in a 
lontlnuing education program, and the teachers assigned to 
Central Rehabilitation Center, and the four teachers 
assigned to the trade center. That teachers in public school 
music, choral music, instrumental music, and librarians who 
are not presently crossing racial lines would be included in 
a music and library pool for a random number selection for 
reassignment. And the other provision was that each school 
principal might select twenty percent of his original 
faculty for the purpose of retaining a core of personnel 
who would assist in maintaining a sound educational program, 
tnd that the personnel department, if there were unusual 
racancies that they could not fill otherwise, might select 
>ven from this twenty percent core. And these are the

g r a h a m  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i i  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.

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1 regulations by which it was done.
q  How long did it take the staff to work this out?
A Approximately two weeks.
0 And then after the details were worked out and 

the assignments were developed, what procedure was followed 
from then until the new assignments became effective yester­

day?
A A number of teachers appealed to the School Bear’d 

from this assignment, and over a period of several days 
the School Board heard the appeals and made decisions on
which ones should not be reassigned.

q Let’s see. How many total faculty is there?
A Roughly 2,100.
0 Now, the tabulation on this exhibit, does it

include the Children's Center?
A I believe the Children's Center was eliminated

from this, along with the Central Rehabilitation Center.
The teachers there were eliminated.

Q What would be the reason for not having them in

this list?
A There were no teachers in either group who could 

be matched with others that might be exchanged, who were
doing or teaching a similar program.

q What kind of children are the teachers teaching

at the Children’s Center?

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.  

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-1211-

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A T h e y  a r e  p h y s i c a l l y  h a n d ic a p p e d  g e n e r a l l y . 

u I s  t h a t  s c h o o l  a c t u a l l y  o p e r a t e d  b y  t h e  S c h o o l

S y s t e m ?

A I t  i s  n o t  o p e r a t e d  b y  t h e  S c h o o l  S y s t e m .  V/e 

m e r e l y  p r o v i d e  -  I  b e l i e v e  i t  i s  f o u r  t e a c h e r s  t o  a s s i s t  

th e m  i n  t h e  e d u c a t i o n a l  p h a s e  o f  t h e i r  p r o g r a m .

0. W ith  r e s p e c t  t o  C e n t r a l  S c h o o l ,  w h a t  k i n d  o f

s c h o o l  i s  t h a t ?

A C e n t r a l  S c h o o l  i s  f o r —  i t ' s  a  s p e c i a l  e d u c a t i o n  

p r o g r a m  g e n e r a l l y  f o r  h a n d ic a p p e d  c h i l d r e n  a t  t h e  J u n i o r  

a n d  s e n i o r  h i g h  s c h o o l  l e v e l ,  p r i m a r i l y  t h e  s e n i o r  h i g h  

s c h o o l  l e v e l .

THE COURT: I ’ m s u r e  i t ’ s  i n  a l l  o f  t h i s  e v i d e n c e

s o m e w h e r e ,  M r. W ard , b u t  t h e  C h i l d r e n ’ s  C e n t e r ,  w h e r e

i s  t h a t  p h y s i c a l l y  l o c a t e d ?

THE W ITNESS: A t C o l i s e u m  D r i v e  a n d  R e y n o ld a

H o a d .

THE COURT: And w h e r e  i s  C e n t r a l  S c h o o l ?

THE W ITNESS: A t  R a c e  a n d  C h u r c h  S t r e e t ,  d ow n  i n

O ld  S a le m .

G (B y  M r. W om b le) M r. W ard , I  d i r e c t  y o u r  a t t e n t i o n  

t o  D e f e n d a n t s ’ E x h i b i t  2 6 .  W hat i s  t h e  r a c i a l  m ix  o r  m ak eu p  

o f  t h e  f a c u l t y  a t  C e n t r a l  S c h o o l ?

A A t  C e n t r a l  t h e r e  a r e  1 3  N e g r o ,  2 2  w h i t e s ,  f o r  a

t o t a l  o f  3 5 .

G R A H A M  E B L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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-1212-

Q Is that the way it has been all this school year 
at that particular school?

A Yes, it is.
Q And it was not involved in this assignment of 

teachers during the past month then?
A No, it was not.
Q How many teachers approximately were reassigned 

as of the beginning of the second semester of the current 
school year, yesterday?

A Approximately 425.
Q Now, with respect to elementary schools, what is 

the - strike that. Does this exhibit of faculty ratios 
include both principals and teachers?

A Yes, it does.
Q What is the ratio of white end black faculty in

the elementary schools of the system?
A It is approximately 30 percent - shown here, it 

would be 29.98 black and 70.02 white.
Q That is not taking into account the teachers

assigned to the Children’s Home?
A That’s right. That would change this and make it 

29.83 Negro and 70.17 white.
Q What is the range within which the black faculty 

ratio ranges under the new faculty assignments?
A At a quick glance, it appears the low would be

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

O f f i c i a l  c o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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-1213-

16.67 at Children's Home and I believe the high is 36.84 at 
Mebane.

Q At North Elementary?
A 30.46 at North Elementary; it's a little higher.

I believe that's the highest.
Q Do you recall any particular circumstance affecting

the ratio at the Children's Home?
A I believe we had originally moved a third black 

person there, but we had a resignation, I believe, that 
created a problem at Children's Home and caused that low 
ratio. I believe that was the situation.

Q What is the faculty ratio as between white and 
black in the Junior and senior high schools of the System?

A 26.20 black and 73.60 white.
Q Now, the Junior high school level, excluding 

combination schools such as Anderson, Carver and Mount Tabor, 
what is the range within which the assignment of black 
facility to Junior highs is?

A I believe the low is 19.44 and the high of 33.33.
G Now, what is the range at the senior high school

level?
A A low of 14.49 and a high of 31.25.
Q Now, with respect to Anderson and Carver, what are

your percentages there?
A 40 at Anderson and 45.83 at Carver.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8« A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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Q flow d o e s  i t  h a p p e n  t h a t  t h o s e  a r e  b o t h  c o n s i d e r a b l y  

h i g h e r  t h a n  t h e  o t h e r s ?

A T h e r e  a r e  tw o  o r  t h r e e  p r o b l e m s .  T h e s e  s c h o o l s  

a r e  c o m b i n a t i o n  s c h o o l s , s e v e n  t h r o u g h  t w e l v e ;  t h e  s c h o o l s  

a r e  r e l a t i v e l y  s m a l l ,  w h ic h  c a u s e s  a  t e a c h e r  t o  h a v e  a  

l i t t l e  b i t  w i d e r  r a n g e  s o m e t im e s  o f  s u b j e c t  a r e a s  i n  w h ic h  

s h e  t e a c h e s .  A l s o  t h e r e  w a s  a  g r e a t e r  p r o b le m  f r o m  t h e  

s t a n d p o i n t  o f  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  i n  m a i n t a i n i n g  e n o u g h  c o r e  

t e a c h e r s  t o  r e t a i n  s t a b i l i t y  i n  t h e  s c h o o l .  And i n  a d d i ­

t i o n  t o  t h a t ,  1 b e l i e v e  w e m ay h a v e  h a d  o n e  o r  tw o  t e a c h e r s  

w h o a p p e a l e d  n o t  t o  b e  r e a s s i g n e d  f o r  r e a s o n s  t h a t  t h e  

S c h o o l  B o a r d  f e l t  w e r e  w a r r a n t e d ,  a n d  t h i s  h a s  m ade t h e  

d i f f e r e n c e  i n  t h e s e  tw o  s c h o o l s  a n d  c a u s e d  t h e i r  p e r c e n t a g e s  

t o  b e  l a r g e r .

Q A p p r o x im a t e l y  how  m any a p p e a l s  w e r e  t h e r e ?

A I n  t h e  n e i g h b o r h o o d  o f  f i f t y ;  I  d o n ' t  k n ow  t h e  

e x a c t  n u m b e r .

Q A p p r o x im a t e l y  how  m any o f  t h e  a p p e a l s  w e r e  g r a n t e d  

o r  a p p r o v e d  b y  t h e  B o a r d ?

A I  d o  n o t  k n ow  t h e  e x a c t  n u m b e r . I  w o u ld  s a y  

s o m e w h e r e  b e t w e e n  t e n  a n d  f i f t e e n .

0  W hen d i d  y o u  s a y  t h e s e  n e w  a s s i g n m e n t s  w e r e  p u t  

i n t o  e f f e c t ?

A On M onday m o r n in g  o f  t h i s  w e e k .

u N ow , M r. W ard , r e f e r r i n g  n ow  t o  t h e  a p p r o a c h  t o

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8c A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C

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-1215

changes in "the assignments of pupils testified to by Dr. 
Larsen last Friday, does the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County 
School System have transportation within the city to the 
schools?

A Only in the portion of the city which was not a 
part of the city in 1957, which was outside of the corporate 
limits in 1957.

0 Is that in accordance with the state plan of 
providing transportation?

A Yes, it is.
Q Did the City School Board, prior to consolidation, 

provide any transportation to schools within the city?
A No, it did not.
Q And since consolidation, has there been any 

provision for transportation to any of the schools that 
were formerly in the old city system?

A Transportation has not been provided for pupils 
on any different basis than it was prior to that time.

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Womble, getting back to Mr.
Ward, we talk about a semester break and so forth.
What date is the dividing line in your system here for 
the pupils? Was it last Monday?

THE WITNESS: Tuesday, January the 27th was the
first day of the new semester for our students in this 
system.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O F F I C IA L  C O U R T  R l P O R T l R S  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.

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THE COURTi Which was the day—  last Tuesday?
THE WITNESS: That was yesterday.
THE COURT: Yesterday?
THE WITNESS: Yes. When I referred to Monday

morning, our teachers worked in their new situations 
on Monday morning without students, on the 26th, and 
on the 27th - yesterday - our students were there, 
and that was I believe the first day of the second 
semester for students.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen suggested the grouping 

of Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, and Lowrance, with Speas, 
Whitaker, Sherwood Forest, Moore, Brunson and Ardmore. Are 
there any of those schools to which transportation is 
provided?

A Transportation is provided to students under the 
state plan at Speas and Sherwood Forest.

Q Are they in areas that were outside the corporate 
limits in 1957?

A That is correct.
Q Now, with the possible exceptions of Speas and 

Sherwood Forest and students living in the areas outside 
the corporate limits as of 1957, if Kimberly Park and Carver 
Crest and Lowrance were grouped with Whitaker and Moore and 
Brunson and Ardmore, so that children who are now attending 
Carver Crest or Kimberly or Lowrance would be assigned to

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N. C



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Whitaker or Moore or Ardmore or Brunson, and vice versa, 
children assigned to Ardmore, Brunaon or Whitaker should be 
assigned to Carver Crest, Kimberly Park or Lowrance, would 
there be any transportation available for those pupils 
other than private transportation?

MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Why is that objectionable, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: If he is asking whether the State

Board of Education would provide transportation under 
the present plan, that’s one thing. I don't know of 
any provision that would prohibit the local Board from 
providing transportation.

THE COURT: Well, the case before us sayB they
can’t inside the city limits since this '57* '59 date. 
All right. Put it more specific there. That's the 
thing that is bothering me about this situation.

MR. CHAMBERS: The only thing I’m suggesting, Your
Honor, is that the State Board said that it will not 
provide transportation! I'm suggesting to the Court 
that there is nothing that prohibits the Board from 
providing transportation within the city. And if the 
question is whether the State would presently provide 
that transportation under the present rules, I would 
have no objection. But his question is would there be 
any transportation.

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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-1218

THE COURT; All right. Rephrase your question.
Q (By Mr. Womfcle) Would the State provide any 

ransportation under the present State law and appropriations 
:or children attending any of those schools that I have 
just mentioned?

A Only the ones now who receive transportation; 
none other.

Q Well, which ones are the ones who now receive 
transportation?

A Speas and Sherwood Forest.
G And none of them receive transportation into any

of the others, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And none would receive transportation under the 

present State law and appropriations?
A That's right.
q Does the City-County Board of Education have any 

provision for transportation other than as provided under 
State law?

A No, it does not.
0 Does it have any buses or appropriations for 

operating buses other than in accordance with State law?
A No, it does not.
Q What is the cost of a bus, Mr. Ward, a school bus?
A The average cost is somewhere between five and

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a. A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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s i x  t h o u s a n d  d o l l a r s  p e r  b u s ,

Q W hat i s  t h e  c o s t  o f  o p e r a t i n g  a  s c h o o l  b u s  p e r  

p u p i l  p e r  y e a r ?

A T h e s t a t e  a v e r a g e  i s  a b o u t  $ 1 7 . 5 0 ,

Q H a v e  y o u  m ad e so m e  r o u g h  c a l c u l a t i o n s  a s  t o  w h a t  

i t  w o u ld  c o s t  t o  p r o v i d e  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  a t  t h e  e l e m e n t a r y  

s c h o o l  l e v e l  u n d e r  D r . L a r s e n ' s  a p p r o a c h ?

A Y e s ,  I  h a v e .  I  d i d  i t  n o t  J u s t  i n  t h e  a r e a  t h a t  

y o u  h a v e  m e n t i o n e d  t h e r e ,  b u t  i n  a l l  t h e  a r e a s  t h a t  h e  

s u g g e s t e d .

THE COURT: He h a d  a b o u t  f o u r  a r e a s ,  a s  I  r e c a l l .

THE W ITNESS: I  b e l i e v e  i t  w a s  f i v e .

THE COURT: F i v e ,  y e s .  A l l  r i g h t .  Y o u ’ r e  t a l k i n g

a b o u t  a l l  o f  th e m ?

THE W ITNESS: I ’m t a l k i n g  a b o u t  a l l  o f  t h e m .

A And i n  d e t e r m i n i n g  t h e  c o s t ,  w e a s s u m e d  t h a t  

t h e r e  w o u ld  b e  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  f o r  t h e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  

d i s t r i c t s  t h a t  n o w  h a v e  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n ,  s u c h  a s  S h e r w o o d  

F o r e s t  a n d  S p e a s ,  a n d  d e t e r m i n e d  t h e  c o s t  b a s e d  o n  t h e  o o s t  

f o r  t h i s  s c h o o l  s y s t e m  — w h ic h  i s  n o t  $ 1 7 . 5 0  b u t  i t  i s  

r o u g h l y  a b o u t  $ 4 . 0 0  h i g h e r ,  a b o u t  $ 2 1 . 5 0 ,  b e c a u s e  w e  u s e  a  

t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  s y s t e m  t h a t  t a k e s  t h e  e l e m e n t a r y  s t u d e n t s  

hom e f i r s t  a n d  t h e  J u n i o r  a n d  s e n i o r  h i g h  s c h o o l  s t u d e n t s  

h om e a b o u t  f o r t y - f i v e  m i n u t e s  l a t e r .  And w i t h  t h a t  p r o c e s s ,  

t h e  l o c a l  B o a r d  o f  E d u c a t i o n  p a y s  t h e  a d d i t i o n a l  c o s t  t o

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

PHONE: 765 0636



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make this possible. And using the cost of this school 
system - assuming that we had to transport all the other 
students thet do not now have transportation - it would
take—

MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to that as
being highly speculative and not responsive to the 
question.

THE COURT: Overruled; go ahead. I realize cost
isn't a factor in considering rights of people, but 
it is a factor in this case on a preliminary injunction 
because it is important because they've got to get it 
and how much someway, and I wouldn't know what that is. 
Go ahead.
A Taking the number of children that would be 

affected in Dr. Larsen's total plan at the elementary school, 
the total number of children who would be affected who do 
not now have transportation, would be a little over 8,000, 
and at our cost it would take approximately $187,000.00 to 
do it, if you assume that every one of these children had 
to be transported. If you assume that one-third of them 
would not have to be transported, because one-third might - 
in the mix that he was proposing, one-third might be able 
to remain in the district to which they are now attending, 
then the cost to this school system would be about $125,000. 
which would be two-thirds of the total cost that I gave you,

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e h  a  a s s o c i a t e s  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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, 0 0 0 . 0 0 .  N ow , i f  w e  h a d  t o  b u y  b u s e s  t o  d o  i t  w i t h ,  

i t  w o u ld  t a k e  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  e i g h t y - t h r e e  b u s e s  o f  t h e  s i z e  

t h a t  w e n o r m a l l y  u s e ,  a n d  t h e s e  b u s e s  c o s t  a p p r o x i m a t e l y  

$ 5 , 5 0 0 . 0 0 ,  w h ic h  m e a n s  t o  b u y  e n o u g h  b u s e s  t o  t r a n s p o r t  

a l l  o f  t h e  s t u d e n t s  w o u ld  t a k e  a b o u t  $ 4 5 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 ,  a n d  t w o -  

t h i r d s  o f  t h a t  w o u ld  b e  a b o u t  $ 3 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 ,  t o  b u y  t h e  

n e c e s s a r y  b u s e s  t o  p u t  t h i s  s y s t e m  i n t o  e f f e c t .  S o  t h e  

t o t a l  c o s t  o f  t h i s  s c h o o l  s y s t e m  a t  t h i s  t i m e  w o u ld  b e  

a p p r o x i m a t e l y  $ 3 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  f o r  p u r c h a s e  o f  b u s e s ,  a n d  a b o u t  

$ 1 2 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  t o  p a y  f o r  t h e  c o s t  o f  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  a f t e r  w e  

o b t a i n  t h e  b u s e s .

Q Was D r .  L a r s e n ' s  a p p r o a c h  s u f f i c i e n t l y  d e f i n i t e  

w i t h  r e s p e c t  t o  s e n i o r  a n d  J u n i o r  h i g h  s c h o o l s  t o  e n a b l e  y o u  

t o  m ak e a n y  c a l c u l a t i o n s  a s  t o  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  c o s t s ,  a d d i ­

t i o n a l  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  c o s t s ,  t h a t  w o u ld  b e  i n v o l v e d  i n  o r d e r  

t o  p r o v i d e  t r a n s p o r t a t i o n  f o r  J u n i o r  a n d  s e n i o r  h i g h  s c h o o l  

s t u d e n t s ?

A He d i d  n o t  g i v e  a n y  i n d i c a t i o n  o f  w h a t  h i s  p l a n  

w o u ld  b e  i n  r e l a t i o n  t o  J u n i o r  a n d  s e n i o r  h i g h  s c h o o l s .  He 

s i m p l y  s p e l l e d  o u t ,  I  b e l i e v e ,  f o u r  h i g h  s c h o o l  d i s t r i c t s  

b u t  d i d  n o t  g i v e  a n y  i n d i c a t i o n  o f  w h a t  t h e  f e e d e r  p l a n  

w o u ld  b e  e i t h e r  a t  t h e  J u n i o r  o r  s e n i o r  h i g h  l e v e l .

Q S o  t h e  f i g u r e s  y o u  h a v e  g i v e n  r e l a t e  o n l y  t o  t h e

s t u d e n t s  a t  o n e  l e v e l ?

A O n ly  t o  t h e  e l e m e n t a r y  l e v e l ,  a n d  o n l y  i n  t h e

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a. a s s o c i a t e s  

O r n c i A L  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.  

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ilstrlcts which he indicated that change would occur.
0 How do you purchase school buses?
A The State of North Carolina estimates the need 

for a future year and bids school bus chassis from companies 
that provide them and bids the school bus bodies from 
companies who provide them, and I believe contracts for the 
estimated number that would be needed during any school 
year, and then they are bought as needed from that contract.

Q How long does it take to get school buses after
an order is placed for them?

MR. CHAMBERSi Objection.
THE COURT: If you know or have an opinion, you

may answer* if you do not, why, of course it wouldn’t
be proper for you to answer.

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it varies at different
times during the year, depending upon the demand for 
buses. Sometimes it takes several months; at other 
times they can be obtained in a shorter span of time.

THE COURT: Some people say that you have got a
stock of them over here and you are Just fixing to do
that. What are those buses for?

THE WITNESS: Those are not our buses. Any buses
there belong to the State of North Carolina. This is 
simply a distributing point for buses for other school 
systems, and we have allowed them to use our school bus

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8, A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  
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parking lot for that purpose.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Are there presently any over­

lapped school bus routes in the school system?
A No, they’re not, with the exception of the 

special transportation to the Central and other special 
education programs.

Q But as far as the regular school program, taking 
those children to school who get transportation under state 
policy, are there any—

A No, there are not.
Q Any overlapping school bus routes?
A No, there are not.
Q what are some of the other practical difficulties

that would be - strike that. Even if you had transportation 
available, buses available and money for operation of buses, 
could you by reference to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 29 illustrate 
the kinds of practical difficulties that would be involved 
in assigning bus drivers and working out routes and addi­
tional expense that might be involved in connection with 
the operation of buses to transfer students, say, from the 
Skyland area to Sedge Garden, or from Sedge Garden back to 
the Skyland area?

MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, object.
THE COURTi Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS* May I say something? This whole

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8, A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

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discussion about transporting kid3 back and forth, or 
where or from where, haB absolutely nothing - no rele­
vance; he doesn't even know where the kids will be 
assigned if they follow what Dr. Larsen has suggested. 
And the major point here is that regardless of whether 
the Larsen plan is followed or some other plan, the 
fact that the Court finds that this is a segregated 
school system, something has to be done immediately, 
and all of this discussion, I submit to the Court, is 
highly irrelevant. And further I call the Court’s 
attention to the comparing opinion in Carter vs. 
Feliciana Parish, since the Court mentioned the pre­
liminary injunction at the outside limits, from the 
beginning of the lawsuit until the time that the case 
had been fully reviewed by the Court of Appeals, 
should be known within eight weeks. So I don't think 
that the testimony now as to how far the kids would 
be transported or other difficulties that might be 
involved has any relevancy at all.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I recognize in reading
the decisions - and I believe this Board recognizes 
whether it is liked or not, there is going to have to 
be more mixing of the races here; that I know; and 
already, from looking at this - and even if I didn't 
order it, I feel like that it will be done anyway. I

graham erlacher a associates 
O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

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don't disagree with more mixing necessarily, but I 
do know this, that we have got to exercise some Judgment 
in these matters. Now, I can’t believe that the 
Supreme Court in that rule, and I can't believe that 
our Fourth Circuit has told the District Court Judges 
Just to do away with any Judgment whatsoever on the 
practicalities of these matters. I hope that that is 
not true. 1 have always found you an extremely 
reasonable person, and I admire you very much. Much 
of what is said in this lawsuit by the plaintiffs is 
correct, as we know the law today. But there must be 
some Judgment exercised about these things.

Now, if we have got a racial mix - even Dr. Larsen 
says some of these schools in his Judgment must end up 
all white or all black, and he stated the number of 
those schools. Now, I don't know how much mix is 
required. This School Board has gone along here 
through '68 - maybe it is not as fast as they should 
have Justly and properly, but they have complied with 
HEW and the others, and I am not lecturing anybody 
about this, but there is a reasonable factor that if 
the whites are going to be brothers, they’ve got to 
extend their hand, and if the blacks are going to be 
brothers, they've got to extend their hand. And I 
told this School Board to mix these people and come

g r a h a m  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C. 

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up with a plan; they have no money; they have no buses H 
eight weeks or what not - I can’t be unreasonable, and 
I don’t think I should be asked to be unreasonable.

Now, when I study these facts, it could be that 
Mr. Ward has got some contingency money or he can get 
some money somewhere and that we can effect more mixing 
this year, but these matters are important - they are 
important to me - to know how this is going to be done 
in the eight weeks, and I realize what you say is true; 
that is what the courts have said, and that might be 
what has to be done and it might have to be done here.
I don’t anticipate - with Mr. Ward and the School Board I 
any trouble over this matter. I want to be reasonable 
about it; I believe and hope you do. But whatever has 
to be done, I will expect the School Board to comply 
with my orders, even though they might not be too 
palatable. But I don't know why—  I Just felt the 
need to make some expression. I want to hear about 
what will be required if we must have more mixing this

year. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) You might just come over here to

the exhibit, if you will, and explain.
A If we take one instance, Your Honor, to just 

illustrate some of the problsms that may occur in connection 
with this, in addition to cost. Time will be a factor, and

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a  a s s o c i a t e s  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C. 

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the drivers of buses, if we had them available, would be a 
factor, because of the location, the manner of transportatioxi 
and so forth. For instance, in the Sedge Garden community, 
and using Dr. Larsen’s proposal of the proximity to the 
school and race as the two factors that ought to be used in 
mixing, for instance Skyland, Petree and Sedge Garden, you 
have some difficulty, because these two things are not 
compatible. You either have to use one or the other, and 
if you assume that the students who would attend Sedge 
Garden - the portion of them there would be the ones nearest 
the school and at this end of the district - you would have 
the problem of these students, for instance in this district, 
by time, distance and so forth, are closer to three other 
elementary schools than they are to Skyland in his proposal. 
And for students in this general area to travel to Skyland 
School, they would have to follow this pattern to get to 
the Skyland School or else they would have to go back to 
this point and start in this direction, taking these students 
to Skyland School, and at that point the bus driver would 
still need to wind up over ultimately at East High School, 
because he is a student driver. This is Just an illustra­
tion of what will happen or of what can happen in any one 
of the districts that are involved. You have Junior high 
school students here, you have senior high school students 
here, you have these students. Now, it has not been

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.

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determined in any of these districts which pupils would be 
transported, but we have many difficulties in each situation 
If you had the buses and you had them available, you still 
have the difficulty of high school students being able to 
take the time, morning and afternoon, and that would add 
also a cost factor which I didn't mention, because you 
might add an hour a day to the time of transportation in 
each of these situations. And as you attempt to transport 
in more thickly populated areas, the time factor becomes 
even larger.

THE COURT: But giving transportation, you could
effect a mix in the area there?

THE WITNESS: It could be done. It would be done
with substantial difficulty and with considerably moire 
Inconvenience in terms of time and distance in the 
process of doing it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Would that then involve - to do 

that, as far as children going to school are concerned, if 
transportation could be provided and you were sending 
children from the western end of the Sedge Garden district 
into Skyland, the racial composition of that group going 
into Skyland would be what?

A The group would be white going into Skyland.
Q And the group on the bus from right around Skyland

going out to Sedge Garden would be of what race?

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

A S H E  D R I V E

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A It would be black. And the same thing would be 
true with Petree and from Petree.

THE COURT! Well, Mr. Ward, we can't Juat take 
Dr. Larsen's testimony. I realize that the plaintiffs 
can't get often local people to come in and tell about 
the education systemj that puts them at some dis­
advantage. Now, for that area, if the Court - and as 
I have said, it is my opinion that there has got to be 
more mixing in the schools by law - do you have any 
suggestion now, if I enter some order that you have 
got to do it I believe you will try it. Do you have 
any suggestion about that that would be helpful to me, 
or put any light on it as to how we might do it in a 
better fashion and accomplish the mixing than Dr. Lar­
sen has suggested?

THE WITNESS! Not at this time, Your Honor. I 
think it would need to be determined, there would have 
to be certain guidelines under which it would have to 
be determined before you could develop a plan for this 
or any other school system. Given guidelines in which 
to work. I feel like a plan for further desegregation 
of the school system would and could be developed, 
but you would have certain limitations. For instance, 
transportation is a limitation, and if you ask that 
this be done, I think we would have to determine what

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C
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would be available in terms of transportation before 
you would know what you could do. You would have to 
know to some degree what racial mix you were trying to 
achieve. Given these things, I believe that we could 
work out a plan.

THE COURT: Well, now, you realize, you know the
time is here, and we don't have whatever - fifteen more 
years to do it in, and again I don't want anyone to 
think that I am lecturing them about this matter, but 
I have been here this number of days and I've heard all 
this and I know it is a matter of concern to black 
parents, black children, black faculty members, white 
parents, the pupils, and so forth, and it's culminated 
and I'm glad to talk to you about it. But you are 
talking about guidelines perhaps from the Court, is 
that right? Somebody?

THE WITNESS: Perhaps from the Court, from someone.
At this point, Your Honor, the School Board has some 
expert working to develop a plan to be presented in 
this community in the near future.

THE COURT: Well, could you tell me - I realize
you are not on that committee - by hearsay or otherwise, 
will that effect more racial mix than you now have?

THE WITNESS: I am not thoroughly familiar with
the plan, but as I understand it, it will achieve some

GRAHAM ERLACHER & ASSOCIATES

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

ASHE DRIVE

WINSTON SALEM. N C.

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greater racial mix in the community.
THE COURT* Will that plan require greater 

transportation than you now have? I'm asking you 
about something that you are not familiar with.

THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar with it enough to
know what kind of transportation it would require.

MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, the Court indicated a 
while ago that Dr. Larsen indicated that some black 
schools might remain in his opinion and it still would 
be a unitary system. Our contention - I Just want to 
clear the record on that - is that there can be no 
black or a white school in the system, that all schools 
must have racial mixing.

MR. WOMBLE: I suggest now he's attacking his
own witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT* Mr. Chambers, that is your contention 
and you have that in your brief and some cases cited 
in support of that. However, that was what he said - 
that's my recollection about it, and I understand you 
all have ordered transcript - and they were in some 
substantial number, or they were over here on the 
western side of the map, is where he was referring to. 
But I realize that that is not your position in it.

Mr. Womble, let's go to lunch.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, sir.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M ;  N C
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THE COURT: All right, you may come down. Let's
take a break until ten minutes after two.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled 
case was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:10 p.m.)

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ward, will you come

back to the stand?
MR. WOMBLEt The defendants offer into evidence 

Exhibit 41 as previously identified. That’s the new 
faculty ratios.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, have you seen it?
MR. CHAMBERS: I've seen it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received

into the evidence is the Defendants' Exhibit 41.
(The document above referred to, 
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi­
bit No. 41 for identification, was received in evidence.)

MR. WOMBLE: We have no further examination of
Mr. Ward.

THE COURT: Let me see your exhibit, the one
that summarizes - is it 24? It's not 26. It says the 
non-mix and mix.

MR. WOMBLE: That was 27, I believe, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Hand me that, Mr. Idol. When I

looked over it over the weekend, I had some question but 
it leaves me now that I was going to ask you about it, but 
maybe I will think of it later. Do you have any questions, 
Mr. Vanore?

MR. VANORE: Yes, I do, please.

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  0, A S S O C I A T E S

O F F I C I A L  C O U R T  R E P O R T E R *  

A S H E  D R I V E

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FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, I believe you testified 

that as of yesterday there had been certain teacher reassign­
ment* made in your school administrative unit?

A That's correct.
Q I believe you testified that this was under a 

plan of teacher reassignment?
A Yes, sir.
0 Who adopted this plan of teacher reassignment,

Mr. Ward?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Now, prior to the adoption by the local Board of 

Education of this teacher reassignment plan, was the plan 
submitted to either the State Board of Education or the 
Superintendent of Public Instruction for their approval?

A No, it was not.
0 I assume the reason it was not submitted to them 

is that you did not think that it was necessary?
A That's correct.
Q Mr. Ward, is the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County

Board of Education required either under state law or under 
the State Board of Education regulation to provide any 
transportation whatsoever for the pupils in the administra­
tive unit?

A No, it is not.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.
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Q Who decides whether or not transportation is 
going to be provided for some of the pupils within the 
unit?

A The local Board of Education.
0 Approximately how many buses do you operate now»

Mr. Ward?
A 217.
Q Where do the funds come from for purchase of a 

school bus that is used by the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County 
Board of Education?

A From Forsyth County.
Q From Forsyth County?
A Yes, sir.
0 The State does not afford any funds for the

purchase of school buses?
A That's correct.
Q Who determines whether or not additional school 

buses are needed by the local Board of Education?
A The administrative staff makes recommendations to 

the School Board about the need,
Q And the School Board would then make the final 

decision?
A Yes.
Q Does the State Board of Education make any regula­

tions whatsoever dealing with the transportation of pupils?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N. C.
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A I don't understand what you have In mind.
Q Do they have any regulations determining the 

construction of the school bus that 1b used, the number of 
pupils that can be allowed to ride on a bus, the color of 
the bus?

A Yes, there are regulations that determine the 
structure, size, color and so forth, and also the pupil 
capacity of buses.

0 Who determines the bus route, Mr. Ward?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Does the State provide any funds for the transports 

tion of pupils by your unit?
A Yes, it makes funds available for operational 

costs.
U For the operational costs?
A Yes.
Q How is it determined how much state funds are 

going to be available to your administrative unit?
A Based upon the number of buses that we have in use,
Q And of course you testified that the local Board 

of Education determines the number of buses that will be 
used?

A That's correct.
MR. VANOREj I have no further questions.
THE COURT: What would happen if you had a plan

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  8. A S S O C I A T E S  

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.
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to build a school and you didn’t submit your plan to 
the State Board, Mr. Ward? Could you build the school?

THE WITNESS* No, I would be in violation from a 
structural standpoint in terms of building. I am 
required to submit a plan to the School Board, to the 
State Board of Education - not to determine where or 
how big, but to be sure that it is safe and sound 
from a structural standpoint.
Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe the local Board of 

Education also determines how many school buildings are 
going to be in operation, does it not?

A That's correct.
MR. LIGONz Just one question, Your Honor.

0 (By Mr. Ligon) With respect to the recent teacher 
transfer, did the Board of County Commissioners have any­
thing at all to do with the preparation, approval or 
implementation of the plan?

A No, it did not.
MR. LIGON* That's it* thank you.
THE COURT* Did you have some more questions?
MR. WOMBLE* No, sir.
THE COURT* All right, Mr. Chambers.

CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I won't be long with this,

Mr. Ward, I Just want to get the record straight about the

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

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Pwnwr



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participation by the State Board in the operation of the 
school system. You are familiar with the various forms 
that you have to submit to the State Board of Education?

A I believe moat of them.
Q I show you the answer of the State Board to

interrogatory 12, and I ask you if you will Just look through 
that document - those documents, and tell me if you are
familiar with those. What do those documents show generally, 
Mr. Ward?

A Most of those are instructions in relation to 
providing information in connection with salaries and in 
connection with the federal programs under Title I.

Q Are you required to follow those instructions?
A Yes.
Q By the State Board of Education? In order to 

qualify forfunds, you have to follow the instructions, 
don't you?

A Yes.
Q I show you the answer to interrogatory number 2 

filed by the State Board — I'm sorry, interrogatory number 1.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, what you just referred

to then, are they exhibits to the answer to interro­
gatory 12?

MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir. They are exhibits
attached to.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

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THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: They’re designated in the answer,

that answer to interrogatory 12.
THE COURT: All right.
CLERK IDOL: I believe also that would be relative

to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 50.
THE COURT: Number 50?
MR. CHAMBERS: That's correct.
THE COURT: All right.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you tell the Court 
whether the exhibit you are now looking at, which was the 
answer of the State Board to interrogatory 1, sets out or 
shows the local Board's budget for the school year 1967-68?

A It's a statement of the amount of money paid to 
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Unit during the 
fiscal year of '67-68.

Q Paid by the State Board of Education?
A Yes.
Q Is it detailed as to where the money is going and 

for what?
A It states the purpose for which it was spent.
Q Could you spend it for any other purpose?
A Nothing other than that under the general cate­

gory specified.
Q It also talks about the superintendent's salary -

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O F F I C I A L  C O U R T  REPORTERS 

A S H E  D R IV E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M  N C
D u n u r . n c i c



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-l

in other words, your office salary, including travel, 
attendant's counsel, office expenaes?

A Yes, it does.
Q Instructional services?
A Yes.
Q Salaries of elementary teachers and high school 

teachers?
A Correct.
Q It talks about the wages for Janitors?
A Yes.
Q The cost of fuel for the school systen?
A Yes.
Q Water, light and power?
A Yea.
Cl Telephone expenses?
A Yes.
Q It talks about transportation of students?
A Yes.
Q Wages of drivers?
A Yes.
Q Cost of gas and oil, etcetera?
A That's right.
Q What is this contract transportation?
A There's not any amount of money alloted under

that.

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O f f ic  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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Q Would you explain to the Court what that means?

A We have never had any contract transportation, 
and I'm not sure what is meant by that.

Q You're not sure that that means that the School 
Board—

MR. VANORE: He's already said that he's not
sure what is meant by it, and—

MR. CHAMBERS! Your Honor, I point out that the 
witness is on cross examination.

THE COURT: This is cross examination; go ahead,
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't It true, Mr. Ward, that 

the State Board of Education permits the local School Board 
to contract with other agencies to provide transportation 
for students?

A I think this is possible.
0 Like a city bus system?
A I've had no experience with it.
Q What is meant by the principal's bus salary or 

bus travel?
A The State pays each principal, I believe $1.50 

per month for each bus that he supervises during the school 
year.

Q The State also pays funds for vocational programs 
teachers?

A Yes, it does.

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O t f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E  

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Q Was the State budget for 1969-70 approximately 
the same as it was for 1967-68?

A I would assume it was approximately the same.
Q Did it increase some?
A It increased some.
Q I show you the State Board’s answers to interro­

gatories 2 and 4, and ask you if you are familiar with 
those documents?

A Yes, I am.
Q Do those documents talk about the requirements 

for certification of teachers?
A One of them does.
0 What else does it apply to?
A All of the professional personnel.
Q What other documents do you have?
A We have the budget forms for operation and a 

sample of the application for teacher certificate.
Q Now, this exhibit included talking about the 

operating school budget. Is that what you submit to the 
State Board in order to get approval of state funds?

A I believe it is.
Q And before you can get any state funds, the state 

has to approve of that budget?
A Yes.
U I show you the state’s answer to interrogatory

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O r r u  ia l  C o u r t  Re p o r t e r s

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number 3, and I ask if you will look at that and tell the 
Court what that is.

A It's a copy of the State Board of Education’s 
sick leave and substitute teacher regulation.

Q That governs when a teacher can take siok leave 
and what happens in case of substitution?

A That's right.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and regula­

tions?
A Yes, we are.
0 I show you the State’s answer to interrogatory 

number 5, and I ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are policies and regulations for allotment 

of teachers to each school system.
Q Are teachers allotted to your school by the 

State Board pursuant to those rules and regulations?
A Yes, they are.
Q And you are required to follow those rules and 

regulations?
A Yes.
Q I show you the State's answer to interrogatory 

number 7. I ask you if you will tell the Court what that 
document is?

A They are rules and regulations in connection with 
fire safety, with exceptionally talented children, with the

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O r r i c  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C.

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other special education students, and with educable 
mentally retarded, and in connection with driver training 
and safety education.

Q Are you required to follow those rules and 
regulations?

A Yes.
Q I show you State’s answers to interrogatory 

number 8 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are curriculum guides for the educable 

mentally retarded and for the trainable mentally retarded, 
and for driver education.

Q Are you required to follow those rules and 
regulations?

A Yes, sir.
Q I show you the State’s answer to interrogatory 

number 9 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A This is the guideline for athletics and other 

student activities.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and regu­

lations?
A Yes.
Q I show you State's answer to interrogatory number 

10, and I ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are rules and policies regulating the 

operation of the regular school buses during the summer

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S

O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

A S H E  D R I V E

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school program, and also a copy of regulatory policies 
for use of school buses by the County-City Board of Educa­
tion.

Q Are you required to follow those rules and 
regulations?

A Yes, sir.
0 I show you State's answer to interrogatory number 

11 and ask you if you will tell the Court what that is.
A These are policies and rules and regulations 

from the State Board of Education governing the expenditure 
of the &100 million State of North Carolina public school 
facilities bond issue of 1963.

Q Did you participate in that bond issue?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q Were you required to follow those rules and 

regulations?
A Yes, sir, we were.
0 I show you the State's answer to interrogatory

number 14 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are procedures for selecting and adopting 

and the distribution of textbooks and library books, and 
the standards of accreditation for high school, elementary 
and Junior high school, along with a policy guide for school 
food service.

Q Are you required to follow those rules and

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s

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regulations?
A Yes, we are.
Q Are you required to select textbooks from the 

books suggested by the State Board of Education?
A The last legislature liberalized the policy a 

little more than they had in the past.
Q You had previously been doing that?
A Yes.
Q Now you have been given a little bit more freedom 

in the selection of books?
A Yes.
Q Are you required, however, to select certain 

books despite the liberality in the policy?
A I don’t know that you could limit it to certain 

books, but there are limited ones.
Q Are your schools accredited by the State Board 

of Education?
A Yes, they are.
Q Are you not required to have them accredited by 

the State Board of Education?
A I don't know that we're required to; we do.
Q Well, does a student satisfy the state compulsive

attendance law if he is going to an unaccredited school?
A I believe he does.

Q He can go to an unaccredited school?

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O r n c  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R IV E

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A I believe he can.
Q Are all your schools accredited by the State 

Board of Education?
A Y e s .

^ I show you the State's answer to interrogatory 16 
and ask you to tell the Court what that is.

A This shows the amount of federal funds paid to 
this school system by the State of North Carolina for 
vocational education from the National Defense Education 
Act, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and for 
the school food service program.

U Did you receive appropriations for those services 
for the school year 1969-70?

A We received funds? I'm not sure that we received 
appropriations in advance.

Q You are using funds now?
A Yes, we are.
u I show you the State's answer to interrogatory 19 

and ask if you will tell the Court what that is.
A it contains forms for a financial report for a 

public school system in North Carolina for 1967-68, and 
the principal's monthly report form, and the final report 
form. These are blank copies, but they are the type used 
by schools in North Carolina.

Q You are required to file quite a few reports with

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O r  r i f  i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t f  r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

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the State Board of Education, are you not?
A Yes, we are.
Q And the State Board of Education sets quite a few 

rules and regulations to govern the operation of the local 
school unit?

A Yes.

Q Do you know what Percentage of your total budget 
is provided by the State Board of Education?

Q
A
Q
A
Q

A Somewhere between sixty and sixty-five percent,
not including capital outlay. I don't know the exact 
figure.

What percentage is provided locally?
Roughly thirty percent.
Is tiiat one of those documents I left there?
The last one you gave me.
I'm sorry. And about ten percent of your budget 

Is provided by the federal government?
A Somewhere between five and ten, I believe, by 

the federal government.
Q Mr. Vanore asked you about how you purchased 

school buses. Who replaces buses when they are worn out?
A The State of North Carolina.
Q Before you can add new buses, isn't it a require-

aent of the State Board that you get approval from the State 
ioard?

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E

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A I'm not sure of the answer to that question.
Q Are you telling the Court that you can Just go

out there and buy a bus any time you get ready?
A We have the authority to buy a busj I don’t know 

whether we would be required to have approval before we 
operate it.

Q Now, the State sets the regulation for how many 
teachers you can have in the system?

A How many they will provide.
Q Do you provide extra teachers from your local 

budget?
A Yes, we do.
Q Approximately how many are provided locally?
A Approximately 180 at this time.
Q Now, you also pay teacher supplement in this 

system, do you not?
A Yes, we do.
Q What is that, what is the teacher supplement 

presently? How much is it?
A I've forgotten the exact range now. It's probably 

from about six to thirteen hundred dollars per season, per 
teacher per year.

Q Your local funds are provided through the County 
Commissioners of Forsyth County?

A That’s correct.

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O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

Phone 763-0636



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Q You prepare a budget and submit it to the County 
Commissioners and if they approve it, then you are funded 
according to the amount they approve?

A That's correct.
Q You say approximately thirty percent of your funds, 

of the total amount, comes from the Commissioners?
A That's right.
Q Now, on transportation, do you have any arrange­

ments with the Safe Bus Company in Winston to provide 
transportation to any school to any city kid?

A No, we do not.
q  Does the Safe Company send a bus up to your high 

schools to pick up the high school kids at the end of the 

day?
A It does, the Safe Bus Company on its own does 

transport some students, some from high school and some from
Junior and some from elementary,

Q You do have a bus system within the city, private,
the Safe Bus Company?

A The Safe Bus Company operates its own buses.
Q Does it operate at Atkins?
A I would assume that it doesi I'm not positive.
Q Does it operate at Reynolds?
A I think so. Again, I ’m not positive. I'm not 

positive at which schools it operates; it's several of them,

g r a h a m  e r l a c h e r  a. a s s o c i a t e s  

O r n t  i a l  C o u r t  R e i * o * T t » s  

A S H E  D R I V E  
W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

Phone. 765-0636



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but I don't know at which schools
Q Doesn't it operate at several of the schools in 

the city?
A It does.
Q Does it provide reduced fares for students riding 

on the bus?
A I believe that's correct.
Q Isn't the fare about ten or fifteen cents for a 

school child?
A I honestly don't know what it is.
Q Anyway, it picks up a student and carries hid all

the way to the school?
A Yes.
Q Goes back in the afternoon and picks him up?
A Yes.
Q Approximately how many students ride on the city

bus?
A I do not know.
G Would it be fifty percent of the city students?
A I don't have any idea.
Q Y/ould you say a substantial number ride in the 

city buses?
A Compared to the total enrollment, I would say 

that it would not be a substantial number.
Q It would not be a substantial number?

GRAHAM ERLACHER & ASSOCIATES

O fficial C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s
ASHE DRIVE

WINSTON SALEM. N C

Phone 76 5  0 6 3 6



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A It would not be.
Q Now, you're talking about the total within the 

city or the total of the county?
A Either way. The total within the county, most 

of the students there are being transported by our own 
buses. Within the city, I do not believe it's a large 
proportion of the number there.

Q Anyway, arrangements have been made by Safe Bus 
Company to provide some transportation?

A That is correct.
Q Now, don't you also have activity buses?
A We have some activity buses at the Junior and 

senior high school.
Q At all of the Junior and senior high schools?
A We have at least one at all of them.
Q Are they paid for by the State Board of Education?
A No, they're not.
Q Are they paid for by the local Board of Education? 
A Yes.
Q Did you have to provide them?
A Yes.
Q And you provide the operating expenses for those?
A It is provided by the individual school activity

fund.
0 That's the operating expenses?

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A The operating expenses. The School Board buys
them.

Q Approximately how far is the average child bused 
in Winston and Forsyth County each day?

A I don't have any idea.
Q Well, take West Forsyth; approximately how far 

does the average child going to that school ride a bus each 
day?

A I don't have any way of knowing how to answer 
that question.

Q Is it more than five miles?
A I doubt the average would be.
Q Let's look at your district.

THE COURT: Mr. Ward, tell me where West Forsyth
is. Is it out in the county?

THE WITNESS: It is down in the southwest corner.
This is the outlying edge of the county.

THE COURT: You Just have that as West?
THE WITNESS: It's listed as West, but it's really

West Forsyth. This is the district for West Forsyth, 
and this is the location of the school (indicating on 
map.)

THE COURT: Well, you have Southwest?
THE WITNESS: Southwest is the Junior high and

West is the senior high for the same district.

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THE COURT: You go ahead with Mr. Chambers'
ques tions.

A The maximum distance that any child could travel, 
as the crow flies, from the very edge of the district would 
be about eight miles. So if you took the average for the 
district and the fact that population is a little greater 
down here, it's like that three, three and a half miles 
might be average.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) V/ould you look at North Forsyth 
and tell us approximately what the average distance is that 
a child travels per day at North?

A Again I don't think that I could give you an 
average. This North High School district is made up of a 
large rural area, with several areas that are more thickly 
populated, and I don't have any way of giving any kind of 
an average in that district.

d Would you tell U3 the fartherest distance that one 
would travel in the North Forsyth School district?

A It looks like about eleven miles would be the 
maximum distance, as the crow flies; it might be even more 
than that by road.

Q Would you look at East Forsyth and tell us the 
fartherest distance that one would travel in the East district

A It would be about the same.
Q Now, what is the fartherest that one would travel

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in the Parkland?
A It looks like it might be five and a half to six 

miles.
Q Looking at this map, how far in the city are buses 

running today that are provided for by the State?
A How far into the city?
Q Can you point it out on the map?
A The Parkland district - the senior high school 

district, which is this district — not elementary or junior 
high - but this school is on the outside of the city and 
these children from the Parkland district are bused to 
Parkland.

Q The Parkland district goes up here?
A The Parkland district is here. It comes in here 

and out that way.
Q Would you have buses running in the eastern 

section of the city around Atkins High School and Skyland?
A No, we do not.
Q Do you have buses running around Lowrance and 

Kimberly?
A We have buses at the high school level only, 

picking up students in the Lowrance and a small part of the 
Kimberly area that are assigned to North High School.

Q Do you have buses coming into the western part 
of the city, around Whitaker?

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A No, sir.
q So the furtherest they would come would be to 

Sherwood Forest Elementary School district?
A The Sherwood Forest and Mount Tabor; these buses

go back this way.
Q How far in the inner city would the buses come

for junior high school students?
A We don't have any buses within the city, I don't

believe, at this time, busing students.
Q Are there any buses at Hanes?
A No.
Q Now, looking at the district within the inner 

city, you estimate that you would have to pay out about a 
half a million dollars to provide buses and operate them 
according to the plan suggested by Dr. Larsen, and I think 
you indicated that you were anticipating busing every child
within the inner city?

A No, I did not, only two-thirds of them.
Q Well, you gave us two figures. One was for two-

thirds, I thought, and one was for every child.
A I used the first figure simply to determine the

cost, and then I explained to you that his plan would only
take two-thirds of that cost.

Q I see. Now, you indicated that you have some
Negro students who are presently assigned outside of their

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d i s t r i c t  u n d e r freedom  o f  c h o ic e ?

A That1s true.
Q Some going to Reynolds—  You might take the 

stand. Some going to Reynolds and some going to other 
schools in the system. How are they transported to school?

A They provide their own transportation.
Q You don't provide any kind of transportation for

them?
A I don't provide any transportation for any 

students at Reynolds High School.
0 Now, you have some going to elementary school 

outside of the district under freedom of choice?
A There may be a few.
Q Well, your figure, I thought, shows that you had 

about 2,000 Negro students in integrated schools. Is that 
correct?

A That is correct; not all elementary, but total.
Q How are the elementary students, how do they get

to school transferring outside of their district?
A All students within the boundary of the city, 

whether they go in the district or outside, provide their 
own transportation.

THE COURT: Hr. Y/ard, does that mean when you all
are talking about the inner city, does that mean the
old city limits plus what has come in?

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THE WITNESS: Mo. Actually, Your Honor, it means
the district within the city as of 1957. The students 
outside of that district line have been provided with 
transportation. The only exception to that, there is 
a school like Parkland - which is on the outside of 
the city and at the high school level - we can furnish 
transportation within the law to the student who lives 
inside the city if he’s transported outside.

THE COURT: To get him out there to his school?
THE WITNESS: That’s right. That's the line

we’re talking abut; that’s not necessarily in the 
city. But in relation to transportation, that's the 
line we're talking about for the moment.

THE COURT: I see. All right.
q (By Mr. Chambers) There are some students within

the inner city that are going to school outside the city 
limits. You can provide bus transportation for them?

A We are doing it at North and Parkland for high

school students.
0 Does the State pay the money for those buses?
A Yes, it does, and that's within the law.

THE COURT: We haven't met yet about that.
THE WITNESS: For the moment.

q (By Mr. Chambers) You indicated that there was 
a committee presently working on a plan for further student

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desegregation?
A That is correct.
0 Is that a committee of School Board members?
A There may be one or two School Board members on

it. The Committee is not totally made up of School Board 
members.

Q Is your staff on the committee?
A My staff is not a part of the committee. My 

staff has provided help and information to them, but there 
is no staff member on that committee.

Q Who is the chairman of that committee?
A Mr. Ed Pullen.
C Is he a member of the School Board?
A No, he is not.
Q Who appointed the committee?
A I ’m not sure. I believe - I ’m sorry. I'm not 

sure who appointed the committee. It was either a combina­
tion of the School Board and the Citizen’s Committee, or 
the Urban Coalition, and I'm not Just sure how it was 
appointed.

Q Does it have any authority at all?
A No, it doesn't have any official authority, no, 

sir. The authority is within the School Board.
Q Is there any committee presently authorized by 

the School Board to prepare a plan for further integration

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o f  th e  s tu d e n ts  i n  t h i s  s c h o o l system ?

A This committee that I speak of either was 
appointed by the School Board or jointly by the School
Board and another agency.

0 What other agency?
A It's either the Urban Coalition or the Citizen’s 

Commission, and I ’m not sure which.
Q Did the School Board give it any instruction?
A I ’m not sure exactly what its instructions were

to the committee.
G What participation has your staff played with

the committee?
A Providing information to them and helping them 

work with figures.
Q What kind of information?
A Information concerning the location of the schools, 

pupils, district lines, providing maps, and information.
Q Well, do you have a spot map?
A Not of the complete school system.
Q Do you have one of the inner city?
A We have one a portion of the inner city.
Q Which portion?
A The portion that would have been affected by 

transportation if the change had come to eliminate the line, 
to provide transportation for all students within the city

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0 That is if the lawsuit challenging—
A The Sparrow case.

Would that be the northeastern part of the city, 
northwestern part?

A It could be in any area of the city which would 
come into play as far as transportation was concerned if 
it were determined that the individual school attendance
area was larger, had a radius larger than a mile and a 
half.

Q Is that spot map in your office?
A Yes.

TIE COURT: Mr. Ward, no criticism about using
you here, but often on matters they have to depend on 
someone else to get the information, but I read in the 
newspaper where the committee that Mr. Chambers refers 
to, that there was some authorization to pay Dr. 
McGuffey - is that his name?

THE WITNESS: The School Board has employed Dr.
McGuffey and associates to help prepare a plan for this 
purpose,

aHE COURT: Is it your understanding that Dr.
McGuffey is working with the committee that Mr. Pullen 
heads?

TIE WIXNE33: That is correct.

on th e  same b a s is  as o u ts id e .

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THE COURT: Do I not read in the paper that the
School Board has authorized funds to maybe get this 
plan so the Court can understand it, to pay for 
organizing it, or somebody to get it together?

THE WITNESS: They have employed Dr. McGuffey
and his associates, and also have employed Mr. Pullen 
to assist with providing a plan for the School Board.

THE COURT: So the School Board does have some
connection with this committee; it Just isn't afloat 
without any connection with the School Board?

THE WITNESS: Both Dr. McGuffey and Mr. Pullen
have been employed to try to provide a plan for the 
School Board.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) When are they to report to the 

School Board on the plan?
A I don't know when they are going to officially 

report to the School Board in connection with the plan. 
There is a meeting today, I believe, in connection with it, 
ath members of the committee and members of the Board.

Q Is it Dr. McGuffey?
A Yes.
Q Has he already presented a proposal?
A If he has, I'm not aware of it.
Q What did the School Board instruct Dr. McGuffey 

with respect to integrating schools?

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A I ’ m n o t  aware o f  any s p e c i f i c  i n s t r u c t io n  i n

connection with it.
Q Did you go to the Board meeting where the School 

Board voted to employ Dr. IIcGuffey?
A I was present.
Q Well, are you aware of any instructions that were

given?
A Not any specific instructions.
Q Was he instructed to eliminate any busing?
A What?
Q Was he instructed to eliminate any busing?
A I don’t believe he was. I don’t recall any 

specific instructions in terms of what he was to do.
Q He was Just told to go and provide some plan for 

integrating the schools?
A I'm not sure what he was asked to do exactly.
Q Does he work out of your office?
A He has spent considerable time in our office

working, working with maps and information and material.
Q And you are telling the Court you don't know what 

he is doing?
A He has not been in our office recently, sir.
Q Well, is Dr. McGfuffey to report to the committee 

or to the Board of Education?
A I understand he is going to report collectively to

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the committee and to the Board at the sane time.
G Now, I think you said that the course you hud 

the school bus running, to Bolton Elementary and high 
school, you end up paying about $21.00 or $22.00 per pupil 
per year, whereas the State average is $17.50?

A That's correct.
G Is that $4.00 difference paid for out of your 

budget locally?
A Yes.

Approximately how much do you pay a year local?
A It’s probably seventy, seventy-five thousand 

dollars for this program.

G I didn't ask you; what is your total operating 
budget for this school year, 1969-70?

A I believe it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 
$26 million.

On the matter of teacher desegregation, you 
indicated there were several exemptions. I think you were
reading from the plan that you followed for the assigning 
of teachers?

A That's true.
G Do you have that with you?

Yes.
The plan for teacher desegregation—
That wasn't introduced into evidence. He simply

A
Q
A

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a s k e d  me q u e s t i o n s  a b o u t  i t .

THE COURT: N ow , h e r e  i s  s o m e t h i n g  t h a t  g i v e s  t h e

b r e a k d o w n . I s  t h a t  w h a t  y o u  n e e d ?

MR. CHAMBERS: I  u n d e r s t a n d  t h a t  t h e r e  w a s  a  p l a n

t h a t  t h e y  f o l l o w e d .

THE W ITNESS: I  h a v e  o n e .

Q (B y  M r. C h a m b e r s )  Do y o u  h a v e  a n  e x t r a  c o p y  o f  i t ?  

A I  d o  n o t  h a v e  o n e  w i t h  m e.

THE COURT: T h e y  c a n  r u n  o n e  o n  t h e  m a c h in e  b a c k

t h e r e  r a t h e r  h a s t i l y ,  M r. C h a m b e r s , f o r  y o u .

ME. CHAMBERS: I  c a n  d o  i t  l a t e r ,  b u t  w e w o u ld

l i k e  t o  m ake t h i s  a n  e x h i b i t .

q (B y  M r. C h a m b e r s )  And o n e  o f  t h e  e x c e p t i o n s  y o u  

h a v e  h e r e ,  a l l  a s s i s t a n t  p r i n c i p a l s  a p p r o v e d  b y  t h e  S c h o o l  

B o a r d ?

A T h a t ’ s  c o r r e c t .

G Why w a s  t h a t  a n  e x c e p t i o n ?

A I  d o n ' t  u n d e r s t a n d  w h a t  y o u  m e a n .

Q Why d i d  y o u  m ake t h a t  a n  e x c e p t i o n ?

A T h e c o m m it t e e  m ade u p  -  a s  I ' v e  e x p l a i n e d  I t  t o  

y o u  t h i s  m o r n in g ,  m ade t h a t  d e c i s i o n  t h a t  t h e s e  w e r e  t h e  

g r o u p s  o f  p e o p l e  t h a t  o u g h t  t o  b e  e x e m p t e d  fr o m  t h i s  e x ­

c h a n g e  .

q Why i n  y o u r  o p i n i o n  w e r e  t h e  a s s i s t a n t  p r i n c i p a l s  

o n e  o f  t h o s e  t h a t  w o u ld  b e  e x e m p t e d ?

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A I  w o u ld  b e l ie v e  i t  was to  c o n t in u e  th e  e f f e c t i v e

and efficient operation of the school.
Q Is that what was reported to the School Board when 

it approved this as an exception?
A The reasons given for these specific items were 

not reported to the School Board at that time.
Q Has it been reported to the School Board why tills 

was an exception?
A Hot to my knowledge.
Q Why did you exempt everybody in special education

in the areas indicated?
A Basically the reason for those exemptions probably 

was the difficulty in this type of child being able to adjust 
to the change, and the fact that it would be difficult to 
find other teachers who could match the teacher teaching in 
this particular field.

G How many schools did you have operating special 
education programs?

A I don't know the exact number; about six or eight,
I guess.

Q And where would they be? Would they be predominant­
ly white, predominantly black?

A Some of each.
Q Could you give us some names of them?
A I don't believe I can right off, sir. I could

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-126

find out the names, but at the moment I don't think I can 
all of them.

0 Now, the Children's Center, you indicated you 
didn't have anybody to match up with the teachers there?

A That's correct.
Q And according to your figures submitted in your 

Lxhibit 26, Children's Center has 4 white teachers and no 
Negro teachers?

A That's correct.
Q So you are leaving that all white?
A For the present.
Q Is Children’s Home an orphanage?
A Yes.
Q I notice that at Anderson, you have

Negro and 60 percent white, and at Carver you have 45 per­
cent Negro and 55 percent white, and your testimony was, as 
I recall, that these were small schools and you had some 
difficulty in matching up teachers?

A That was one of the problems.
Q 1 understand that at Atkins you still have quite 

a few vacancies, or several vacancies?
A That is not correct. I do not believe at this 

time we have more than two or possibly three.
Q Why do you have vacancies at Atkins?
A We had one or two resignations from people assigned

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there and we have not been able to fill them
Q Isn't it a fact that you didn't assign some 

people there, too?
A It is a fact that we assigned some where people 

had resigned in the exchange; we did assign some exchanges. 
I believe most of those have been filled. I believe our 
most difficult problem at Atkins is a case where the person 
resigned -

Q Are you telling the Court that you assigned a 
white teacher to fill every vacancy there?

A All that ha-vebeen filled.
Q There are two or three that haven't been filled?
A There are one or two that as of yesterday after­

noon had not been filled.
Q So you didn't assign anybody there yet?
A We may have. We had applicants, I think, for

all of these positions and they were being interviewed 
yesterday afternoon. I don't know what the situation is; 
they may be filled now. I think there were two or three 
as of yesterday.

Q As of Monday, you had four or five vacancies 
there?

A I don't think we had but about three or possibly
four.

Q Did you have any vacancies at the white schools?

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A I'm not sure
u Isn't it true that you didn't have any?
A I am not sure whether we did or not.
Q Isn't one of those vacancies at Atkins a French

position?
A I do not think it is.
Q Isn't it one of the required courses?
A French is a required course, but I do not believe 

there's a vacancy at Atkins in French; it may be.
Q You don't recall whether the one or two vacancies 

there now would be in a required course?
A One of them that they were having difficulty 

filling at the moment is in distributive education. I 
believe that one of the others was in business education, 
and I'm not sure what the third one was.

Q The teachers teaching junior and senior high 
school at Anderson and Carver, are they certified in all the 
fields they're teaching?

A Most of them are. I'm not absolutely positive 
that all of them are in every field they're teaching.

Q Mr. Ward, isn't it possible for you to further 
integrate Anderson and Carver now?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'll change the wording.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't it possible for you to

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racially mix more teachers at Anderson and Carver now?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A If you define the word "possible", I might be 
able to answer it.

THE COURT: I would think that would have to be
answered yes; I'm not telling you what—  the question
is could you Just put more teachers over there.

THE WITNESS: That could be done.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Is it true that in your system 

today you still have Negro principals at predominantly 
Negro schools and white principals at predominantly white 
schools?

A We have some that way.
Q What exceptions do you have?
A Brunson Elementary School.
Q That's predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Has a Negro principal?
A Yes.
L Any other school?
A Lowrance Elementary is predominantly Negro with

a white principal, and Hanes Junior High School is predomi­
nantly Negro with a white principal.

Q Now, would all the others have a principal of the

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race of the majority of the students in the school?
A Yes, they do.
0 How many Negroes do you have on your staff in the 

central office?

MR. WOMBLE: I object. We're getting into a
repetition, Your Honor.

TIE COURT: Well, overruled.
A Will you define the meaning of "staff"?
Q I'll withdraw the question. Do you think it 

possible to integrate the Negro schools in the eastern part 
of the City of Winston?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Sustained.

Q (By Mr. Chambers) Do you think it possible to 
mix students racially in the present all Negro schools in 
the eastern part of the city?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
TIE COURT: Overruled.

A Repeat the question, please.
Q Do you think it possible to mix students racially 

in the presently predominantly Negro schools in the eastern 
part of the city?

A It is possible.
0 What do you think could be done to integrate and 

mix them?

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A I don't have any suggestions for it at this time.
0 I think you heard Mr. Sarbaugh testify yesterday

about pairing and clustering different groups of schools?
A Yes.

Q You're familiar with these terms, are you not?
A Yes.

Q Are you familiar with the school systems that 
have used one of these means to mix students racially?

A Yes.

0 Would you tell the Court some of those systems?
A Princeton, New Jersey and Berkeley, California.
Q Would you tell the Court what kind of plan they 

have in Berkeley, California?

A Berkeley, California is using a plan which three 
schools are used to mix the races by using a district as 
large as three schools generally, and using different grade 
levels to take care of the pupils for the entire district.

Couldn’t that be done to mix students racially in 
the eastern part of the city?

A It possibly could.
Q Do you know of any other way?

MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.

A It might be done by pairing,
a Would you point out to the Court what kind of

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pairing you are talking about?
A Pairing is generally thought of in terms of the 

Princeton plan, in which you use two schools in the same 
district and part of the grades at one level and part at 
the other.

d Could you give the Court an example on the board 
with some of the schools you have in the system?

A You might take any two schools in the system that
are adjoining districts and pair them.

Q Would you come down and point out an example here? 
Y,fould you use Skyland and Petree?

A It could be used, but it wouldn't give a very good 
balance. Petree School is not quite as large as Skyland, 
and it would work out better if both of the schools are the 
same size. They are in adjoining districts and it could be 
done.

Q You say Petree is predominantly white?
A Predominantly white.
0 /aid Skyland is predominantly Negro?
A Yes.
C Both serve grades one through six?
A Yes.
Q Have you seen the pairing where you had two grades 

at Petree and four grades at Skyland, rather than three
grades each?

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A I'm sure some of that has been done; I'm not aware 
of any particular school that's done that way.

Q I believe Lowrance now is presently predominantly
Negro?

A Yes, it is.
Q /aid Kimberly Park is predominantly white?
A No. Kimberly Park is predominantly Negro. You 

would have to use Lowrance.
Q Both those schools serve grades one through six?
A That's correct.
Q And one possibility for that would be to put one 

in Lowrance?
A It probably would be again two and four. Mineral 

Springs is larger than Lowrance, and the balance wouldn't 
work out there. It would probably have to be done with the 
two grades at Lowrance and possibly four at Mineral Springs, 
because Mineral Springs is larger than Lowrance.

Q Now, the clustering, would it involve taking more 
than two schools, as we are indicating there for pairing?

A I'm not familiar with any school system that has 
actually used a clustering plan, but I assume that when you 
use the word "cluster", you are combining more than three 
schools. I would assume the Berkley plan involved three 
schools; the pairing plan in the Princeton plan uses two, 
and a cluster might use any number of more than that in the

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c o m b in a t io n .

Q In your opinion, would it be necessary to cluster 
in order to mix those schools on the east side of the city?

A I am not sure. I haven't studied it carefully 
enough to know whether clustering would be necessary in that 
process or not.

Q Just as another example, have you seen a district 
that would use four schools for pairing and make one 1 and 
2, the other 2 and 3, and the other one 3 to 4, and the 
other one 5 and 6?

A I have not seen any exactly like that. I notice
that some school districts have taken a larger area and had 
all the students at one grade level, maybe the fifth grade, 
go to that school.

Q Are you familiar with the plan now operating in 
Lexington, North Carolina?

A I know approximately what it is.
Q Is that a clustering kind of plan?
A I would assume that in at least some areas it

probably is a clustered plan. I don't know that that title 
has been used in connection with it, but as I understand it, 
they have different varieties of districts and different 
makeups.

Q Have you had a chance to see the plan that was 
adopted in Durham County?

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A I have seen the Judge’s ruling, I believe, on 
that case, and as I understand that, there is no clustering 
or pairing in it. It's simply a districting plan for 
Durham County.

Q Now, in your opinion, is it possible to district 
this school district to mix students racially in the schools?

A No, it is not possible.
Q If the Carver district, for instance, were 

enlarged, could you integrate Carver or mix students 
racially in Carver?

A Explain what you mean by that. If you enlarge 
the boundaries, would some white students be going to Carver?

Q Yes.
A That would be true.
Q If the Skyland district were enlarged, would you 

bring some white students into Skyland?
A Bring a few.
Q If the Lowrance district were enlarged, could 

you bring some white students into Lowrance?
A A few.
Q If the Kimberly district were enlarged, could you 

bring some white students into Kimberly?
A A few into that one.
Q Now, not only enlarging but by altering the 

boundary lines, you could bring some white students—

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A That would be enlargement,
Q Well, if you cut off the eastern part of the 

Kimberly district, for instance, and moved the western 
boundary line further west—

A Well, you would have to take in more area than
you now take in in the district, or you couldn't__ I don't
think you could do anything with it. See, Kimberly is in 
a very compact district; it is thickly populated, and if 
you went in any other direction you would have to take in 
a much larger area than you would give up in order to get 
the same number of students.

Q But it is possible to Just change some of the 
boundary lines you have there now to bring in some white 
students?

A You could bring in on any schools - any black 
school bordering a white school, you could change the 
boundary and bring in a few students. You could not bring 
in very many in any instance in the school - that is you 
might get up to ten percent. I doubt if there are any 
instances without radically moving the lines to an unreason­
able degree that you could get more than about ten percent, 
and it would be small, but you could pick up a few at 
almost any.

THE CuURT: What about at Brown? What could you
do at that?

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THE WITNESS: At Brown you could not. There are
two or three like Brown Elementary that do not border 
on white districts, and you could not do it at those. 
But around the outside fringe, you could adjust the 
lines and pick up a few white students, but probably 
not enough to meet anybody's guidelines as to what a 
desegregated school would be.

THE COURT: Mr. Ward, on the pairing or clustering
plan, as compared with the transpoi’tacion which is now 
provided, if you went through the system - you know, 
working out that plan and getting some mix somewhat 
on the basis that Dr. Larsen talked about, that is 
ten percent on either side - what about the transpor­
tation? You couldn't do it on the present transporta­
tion surely?

THE WITNESS: No, we could not, and actually, if
you used all the transportation that would be made 
available at the moment - with our capacity and the 
Safe Bus Company capacity - it couldn't be done.

THE COURT: Do you people have a contingency and
emergency fund, let's say, that you could hire buses 
that were available? Do you people have in your budget 
some contingency or emergency funds that could be 
utilized?

THE WITNESS: No. We have a very small amount of

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m o n ey  i n  o u r  p r e s e n t  f u n d .  T h e  S t a t e  o f  N o r t h  C a r o l i n a  

p r o v i d e s  m o s t  o f  t h e  m o n e y  f o r  t h a t  p u r p o s e ,  a n d  w e  

n a v e  a  v e r y  s m a l l  a m o u n t o f  m o n e y  i n  o u r  b u d g e t .  We 

d o  n o t  h a v e  a n y  c o n t i n g e n c y  f u n d s  t h a t  c o u l d  b e  u s e d  

f o r  t h a t  p u r p o s e .

THE COURT: A l l  r i g h t ,  M r. C h a m b e r s .

Q (B y  M r. C h a m b e r s )  I  t h o u g h t  y o u  h a d  3 7 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  

t h a t  y o u  u s e d  e a c h  y e a r  o v e r  a n d  a b o v e  w h a t  t h e  S t a t e  p r o ­

v i d e d  f o r  J u s t  a  k i n d  o f  a r r a n g e m e n t —

A T h a t ’ s  n o t  a  c o n t i n g e n c y  f u n d ,  s i r ;  t h a t ' s  d e s i g n a ­

t e d  a n d  s p e c i f i e d  b y  t h e  B o a r d  f o r  c e r t a i n  p u r p o s e s .

Q I t  i s  p o s s i b l e  t h o u g h ,  i s n ' t  i t ,  M r, W ard , t o  

r e o r g a n i z e  y o u r  c o m p l e t e  b u s  s y s t e m  t o  p r o v i d e  so m e  t r a n s ­

p o r t a t i o n  f o r  f u r t h e r  m i x i n g  o f  s t u d e n t s ?

A I t  i s n ' t  i m p o s s i b l e  t o  d o  w h a t  w a s  p r o p o s e d  b y  

D r . L a r s e n ,  o r  w h a t  w e h a v e  b e e n  d i s c u s s i n g ,  w i t h i n  t h e  l a w .  

Y ou  c o u l d  d o  so m e r e o r g a n i z a t i o n  b u t  r e l a t i v e l y  l i t t l e  

t o w a r d s  t h e  p r o p o s a l  t h a t  w e a r e  d i s c u s s i n g  w i t h i n  t h e  l a w .

Q Y ou c a n  d o  s o m e t h i n g  w i t h i n  t h e  la w ?

A R e l a t i v e l y  l i t t l e .

Q Y ou  i n d i c a t e d  t h a t  i t  w o u ld  t a k e  a b o u t  3 1 2 5 * 0 0 0 .0 0  

f o r  o p e r a t i n g  c o s t s  f o r  w h a t  D r .  L a r s e n  s u g g e s t e d  f o r  t h e  

e l e m e n t a r y  s c h o o l s ?

A. T h a t ' s  c o r r e c t .

Q And y o u ' v e  g o t  $ 7 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 ?

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A We do n o t  have 3 7 5 ,0 0 0 .0 0 . A t le a s t  h a l f  o f  t h a t

has already been spent.
Q The County Commissioners have contingency funds, 

don't they?
A I can’t answer that question.
Q You don't know that to be a fact?
A No, I do not.
Q Have you really made a study to determine whether 

the Safe Bus Company could provide transportation?
A No, I have not, except that I am aware of what 

the problems that Safe Bus Company has had within the last 
year or two in trying to provide the transportation that was 
needed in this community.

Q Have you sat down and determined approximately 
how far the children would be from the schools, given the 
plans that Dr. Larsen was talking about?

A No, sir, I have not.
Q You don't even know if they'd actually need 

transportation?
A Yes, I do. I have experimented with it just 

enough to determine the distance. Now, if you can implement - 
I'll back up - if this plan can be implemented without 
public transportation, then it wouldn't cost us any addi­
tional money. If the parents provided the transportation 
for the students and we weren't required to do it, then it

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wouldn't take any extra money for the school system to do It. 
If you left transportation up to the parents, that wouldn’t 
be a problem.

MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: You were on cross examination—

anything further?
MR. WOMBLE: I ’d Just like to clarify one point.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
q  (By Hr. Womble) Mr. Chambers asked you if the 

School Board had spent the sum of $75,000.00 of local money 
for transportation for children in the city. Now, did you 
understand that that was his question?

A No, I did not. I understood it to be in our 
transportation system, not within the city.

Q Has any of that money been used for inner city 
transportation of children?

A No, it has not. All of it has been in accordance 
with the transportation allowed by the State law.

MR. WOMBLE: That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?

FURTHER EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, do you know of any 

State Board regulation which dictates the location of a 
school building and where the school administrative unit 
will locate a school building?

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A No, I do not.
Q Do you know of any State Board regulation which 

requires that teachers employed by the local school adminis­
trative unit be assigned to particular schools within the 
school administrative unit?

A No, I do not.
0 Do you know of any State Board regulation which 

requires that particular bus routes be employed by the
school administrative unit?

A No, I do not.
0 Do you know of any State Board regulation which 

requires that pupils be assigned to particular schools 
within the school administrative unit?

A No, I do not.
I®.. VANORE: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No, sir, I have no questions.
THE COURT: There was some inference that the

county had plenty of money there, so that we might use 
you as a witness instead of a lawyer.

Anything further here?
MR. CHAMBERS: We have nothing further.
THE COURT: You may come down. Let's have an

afternoon recess.
(Witness excused.)

(A brief recess was taken.)

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THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have any more
witnesses?

lui. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we have no further
evidence. V/e would like to renew our request that the Court 
visit the schools that we have been putting in evidence 
about. While it would take a little time, we feel that it 
is very significant and important for the Court to have the 
benefit of knowledge of the actual geographic situation 
involved.

THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I could see that that
would be helpful, and I do not want to omit or fail to do 
anything that I should do with reference to this case, but 
it seems to me that right now this question is here on the 
matter of a preliminary injunction - I want to be honest in 
the matter - I don’t see how, on the merits, that there 
could possibly be much more evidence, perhaps so; but it’s 
here now on the matter of a preliminary injunction. I do 
not - if I see it right here from you people - reach the 
issue, the ultimate issue in the case, that is whether 
there is a unitary system now. That must come on the final 
decision on the merits. But again it would seem that 
technically we are not at that place; this was here on the 
motion for preliminary injunction. I realize that everybody 
was called on rather short notice and that no final pre­
trial order was entered, which was contrary to what we and

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you all usually do in these matters and all matters before 
the Court, but in order to pass on the issue that Is 
before me now I don't think that would be an absolute, do 
you? Or do you agree with me on the fact that the issue 
here is whether a preliminary injunction should be issued, 
not the ultimate issue of whether there is a unitary system 
or not. What do you think about that?

MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, it may be that at this
time it is not necessary for the Court to make what would 
be a final or ultimate determination of the question of 
whether or not a unitary system is now being operated, but 
it does seem to me that it is necessary for the Court to 
at least preliminarily consider whether this is now being 
operated as a initary system as it relates to the action 
that the Court will take with respect to this system at 
this time. What I am getting at is this. As we will point 
out in our oral argument, there are courts that have had to 
consider whether or not a preliminary injunction will be 
granted, and having passed on the question of injunction, 
determine for example that they are operating a unitary 
system and therefore no such order - injunction - is to be 
issued. I think that the decision in Alexander versus 
Holmes has also indicated that where a court finds that a 
system is operated as a unitary system, that it is appro­
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to retain Jurisdiction, and during the coming months to 
consider protest and proposed amendments that might be 
appropriate with respect to the further operation of the 
system in the future.

In other words, I think that as far as - particu­
larly in this matter of pupil assignment, pupil enrollment 
in the schools, it is clear from what the courts have said 
and what they have not said that there is no pat definition 
that a court can turn to and say, "Now, this system meets 
constitutional standards; this system does not," and that 
each case must be looked upon as an individual case. And 
in each case there may be instances in which the court feels 
that generally the system is or is not being operated as a 
unitary system. Ikat there are specific areas for schools 
where some further work may need to be done. So it does 
seem to me toot the Court must at least give consideration 
to this matter of a unitary system, even in passing on the 
matter before the Court.

THE COURT: Mr. Womble, what do you think I will
learn by - we'll say, by going to Atkins and going to 
Reynolds and going to the others? I have right now Just a 
maze of information that I came here Saturday and Sunday 
looking through some of it, and this week, and I didn't get 
through all of that. Of course, I have a general idea 
about this. But Just what will I learn? You can’t see toe

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boundaries; they are out there somewhere. I will see a 
student population, and I have a sheet here that tells me 
what the population is there. I would see some faculty 
members; I would see the physical plant. Tell me how that 
would help me with the problem that I have to wrestle with 
here? Y/hat do you say?

Mi., WOMBLE: Your Honor, one of the very real 
questions in this case, and in all of hese cases, revolves 
around the neighborhood concept, the proximity of school 
to the population to be served. The fact that a child 
under any system must get from an area to a school, it 
seems to us that - maybe it wouldn't. I think it would be 
desirable if the Court could actually go see all of these, 
but it seems to us it would be important to at least visit 
some representative areas - that would be both some that 
would be within the confines of the central area, some that 
would be more spread out, and what the Court would learn 
would be - I guess - along the lines that Mr. Carlyle used 
to teach us in the firm years ago, that there is Just no 
substitute for going and seeing a place. Anytime that 
any matter came up that he was involved in, where any 
physical situation was involved, it was understood that you 
went out to see it, where it was, where a wreck occurred 
or where that land was being condemned, or any other case 
that involved a physical facility.

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Now, here what the Court would, learn, you have 
for example a map picture of Skyland School and Petree 
School and Sedge Garden. By going to briefly visit the 
Petree area, the Skyland area, and out to the Sedge Garden 
area, the Court will get actual on-the-ground knowledge 
that cannot possibly be obtained otherwise as to the real 
distances, the routes of travel. In other words, to get a 
feel and an understanding of what would be involved in any 
major alteration of the present pupil attendance pattern.

THE COURT: Well, I of course - I don’t think I
was ever at Skyland or by Petree or by Sedge Garden. As 
you say, I know them from the map, but what has been told 
me, I know that Skyland is sitting there in a black communi 
I know that Petree and Sedge Garden, out in the more rural 
area where there are few black students, each one of them, 
and I know that to get the racial mix into Petree and Sedge 
Garden, the only way you can do it is to go over to Skyland 
there, in that concentrated community, and select some 
black students to haul out there - who, I don't know, and 
which ones, and then that you have got to go over to Sedge 
Garden and Petree and select some white students to haul 
back over to Skyland.

Your people here - and I say your; I've just been 
here a short while - they built the schools where the 
families were. That is the old concept; maybe to some

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people outmoded and old-fashioned, maybe it is; but that 
is what has been done and the schools were comparatively 
small, and they were built to accommodate - I imagine when 
Skyland was there, they built a school maybe to take care 
of the pupil population plus some protected time, and 
maybe that has been added to; I don’t remember. But that 
is what we are wrestling with here.

And frankly, if in this system as I see it, if 
any considerable racial mix comes about - and I would say to 
you in all candor that it looks like that that is what is 
going to have to come about - the only way that you ever 
get them is for the extra transportation. The courts don’t 
want to say "bus1'; they say ’’pairing", "clustering", "con­
solidation", or other methods that will serve to mix the 
students. The other method is busing and does away with 
the neighborhood concept, which I don’t know - that does 
violence to a lot of thinking of intelligent, good people - 
good people both black and white. And I say to you - I ’m 
not trying this case on letters - but there are black citi­
zens and black students who take a counter-position to what 
the plaintiffs do in this case. There are black teachers 
who take a counter-position to what the plaintiffs do. There 
are some whites who take a counter-position to what the 
defendants say about it. So it is a problem. Let me think 
about the matter of visiting the schools.

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First, Mr. Chambers, do you people have addi­
tional evidence?

ME. CHAMBERS: No, Your Honor. I mentioned that
we had an exhibit that we wanted to introduce that had not 
been duplicated. That would be Plaintiff's Exhibit 61. 
That's the plan for teacher desegregation.

HIE COURT: Would that conclude your evidence?
MR. CHAHBEiu3: That concludes our case.
THE COURT: Any evidence for the county?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.
THE COURT: Anything for the state?
MR. VANORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 61 is received

into the evidence.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 61
for identification and was received 
in evidence.)

THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you all want to present
some oral argument on this matter, even if I don't go to 
the schools? that would be your position, assuming that I 
do not visit the schools?

ME. WOMBLE: Yes, sir, we would want to have oral
argument, and we would want also—  we would like to have
the privilege of filing an additional brief with the Court.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Chambers, of course

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if there's oral argument there - I'm not indicating that 
Just because they are presenting oral argument that you all 
want to present some.

MR. CHAMBERS: We don't care to, Your Honor. If
the Court had some questions that the Court would like to 
ask, we would be glad to respond. We have submitted a 
brief, and the Court has received a copy of it.

THE COURT: I have your brief.
MR. CHAMBERS: We wouldn't care to elaborate any

further.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Womble, how much time?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I have not tried to

figure Just how much time it would take. I would think 
somewhere between thirty minutes and an hour, probably not 
over forty-five minutes.

THE COURT: Are you prepared now?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOMBLE: I take it we would follow the

plaintiffs, if they care to make any argument?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we will waive opening,

and if it becomes necessary we might have a few remarks in 
response.

THE COURT: All right. I haven't asked the
county and the state; of course I'll hear from you if you

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have something. I'm going to rule on all of this when I 
put it together. I'm going to rule on the motion for 
summary judgment.

MR. LIGON; Y/e would like to make a brief pre­
sentation, Your Honor, with respect to the motion. We do 
not care to make oral argument with respect to the plaintiffs' 
motion.

THE. COU. T: You, Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Y/e have some comments that we would

like to make also. It shouldn't take over fifteen or 
twenty minutes - with respect to our motion for summary 
judgment.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, when you are through
here, you are going back to Charlotte?

MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, Your Honor. I have to go to
Raleigh. I would respectfully request to the Court that 
if it's convenient for the Court for us to go ahead and try 
to complete the matter today.

THE COURT: I realize that you and Mr. Vanore are
the only ones out of the city. Well, let's go ahead, 
gentlemen. I'm going to give you an opportunity to present 
some briefs; that might cause you to be a little more 
abbreviated with your argument. Does anybody want the oral 
argument?

MR. ROUBLE: With the assurance that we can file

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additional briefs, I think we can put everything we want 
right in there.

THE; COURT: It is more valuable than it is telling
me about it out there, you know. If I have it in writing, 
it is more valuable to me than to have it stated. I don't 
want it indicated that I don't want to hear you; I'll be
glad to hear from you. How much time do you need to file
a brief?

MR. WOMBLE: We got an extension to the 30th of
January in the landfill case, and our time has almost run
out on that case.

THE COURT: And we've got the one here with Mr.
Hutchins and you.

MR. WOMBLc: We have that one that's on appeal,
and I just got the record back on the other landfill case; 
it’s on appeal, and I don't want to delay this, and I *v»<r.w 
it would be better from our standpoint, as well as the 
expediting of it, for us to get this put together and in
your hands as quickly as possible.

THE COURT: You have a brief or briefs in already.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, we have a preliminary one, but

we would want to very carefully put together what we 
believe are facts in our evidence and supports for authority. 

THE COURT: Ten days?
MR. WOMBLE: Ten days, I think.

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THE COURT: Will you people want to present
argument or brief?

MR. LIGON: Your Honor, I think that in the case
of the Board of County Commissioners, to file an additional 
brief within that ten days, the same ten-day period, would 
be satisfactory.

THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I think that we would do likewise

also. I don't want to be the only one in the crowd that 
presents oral argument.

THE COURT: I won't hold that against you.
MR. VANORE: They might though.
1®. WOMBLE: With our brief that we would file,

would the Court like to have proposed findings and conclu­
sions?

THE COURT: I would.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't want to be

unreasonable, but I would like to object to the ten days.
I have a problem myself. As we see the problem, the 
question is whether the Board is to do something. After 
that question is answered, either affirmatively or negative­
ly, we would have some determination about what is to follow 
and when. As it is now, I don't know what if anything is 
being done to prepare a plan, and our position is that some 
plan must be prepared and must be implemented, and that's

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why we asked at the earlier hearing for some deadlines for 
complete compliance; with what might be complete compliance, 
if the Court decides something should be done, ten days 
would put us into February for submission of briefs and 
the determination of whether something else needs to be 
done which might put us into March, and then there would 
be some determination of what is presented, if something 
is required, is adequate, and then the problem of the time 
for implementing whatever is finally approved by the Court, 
and I know the Court has read the decisions of the Supreme 
Court about the immediacy. And if we have that initial 
determination of whether this Board had to do something 
else, we certainly would have no objection to the ten days. 
But with that still being in the balance, we think that ten 
days might be too long. If eight weeks, the thing to run 
the gamut, the filing of the lawsuit and the final deter­
mination by the courts and implementation, we will run by 
the ten weeks.

And I recall the other day the Court extended 
time for the Board to file a final plan, if the Court 
decided that such should be submitted, until February 26th, 
I believe it was, or February 16th.

THE COURT: February 16th.
MR. CHAMBERS: But in the previous order the

Court stated if the Court decides something has to be done,

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the Board would have to submit a plan within ten days, and 
we accordingly—  we would register an objection to the ten 
days, which would put a burden on us, too. It would put a 
burden on us, too, but we don't think it should be done.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, have a seat; I want 
to talk to you a little bit. Everybody who has a case in 
court thinks his case is the most important, Just like the 
people at P. Lorillard that you are pursuing. You lawyers 
have your cases and your clients pursue you about it, and 
they all think they are important. No credit to myself, 
but a young girl was injured, out on vacation over the 
holidays, and we heard her case so that she could be here. 
We have many, many cases. I have arranged my schedule so 
we could hear the evidence in this matter; it has lasted 
much longer than I anticipated. Those people who have been 
put off think their matters are important also. On Friday 
here, we had some more hearings; next week we continue.
You people have, as good attorneys, introduced - I don't 
know - added up, maybe seventy-five exhibits in here. I 
presume you all put them in for a purpose, that is for me 
to look at, to study and analyze. I have always done that. 
I know that this is important to your clients, and I know 
it is important to the School Board, but I know also that 
you all would not want any court - the shoe is on this foot 
today; it might be on the other foot tomorrow - to make

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some ruling without having given the matter full considera­
tion. A lot of these exhibits are written exhibits, and 
I have had no opportunity to study them.

If the plaintiffs have rights that are being 
deprived, they are entitled to have those corrected. But 
I cannot see that to give a court time enough to look 
through and make some mature consideration and some mature 
judgment would be out of order in this or any other case 
that comes before me. We have people waiting for pre­
liminary injunctions to be heard now. It's a day when 
everybody, it seems, has lateral remedy, some injunctive 
relief, that they wish. I do not feel that the relief that 
is requested is of the urgency that the Court should 
abandon its responsibility to consider the matter, and I 
regret that we can't give instant justice. But even the 
slowness of the law sometimes banks the fires of passion 
and prejudice.

We fuss about courts being slow, but sometimes 
even that has its good effect. But as I say, we have 
gotten into it in what I would call record time - I don't 
think we made any record getting through with the evidence; 
it has been long and slow and tedious, and I am sure you 
all are tired, and I'm tired, and we just must have time to 
give what has been presented some consideration and hope­
fully correct anything that is incorrect.

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MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'd like to renew the
motion I made on - I think it was January the 9th, per­
taining to some direction, and I can appreciate the Court's 
reluctance to make a determination before you make it, but 
we are still looking at the lack of a plan and preparation 
by the School Board, and we'd like to renew the motion - 
and as to the case of Carter on December 17th - that some 
instruction to the Board to either be prepared to submit a 
plan forthwith if the Court should decide one should be 
directed, to submit one by a certain day. I think in 
normal operation of the school system, they would be con­
sidering some plan, and here there is a committee, I under­
stand, that is working; there is no definite time that the 
report is supposed to be submitted back, although I under­
stand they're supposed to meet tonight, the committee is to 
meet, and then sometime later perhaps report to the Board. 
But there is nothing definite as to time here, and because 
of it, we would again like to renew the motion.

THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I've ordered them to
file the one for '70'71 by February 16th, and I will put 
it in the order, that within ten days of any order they 
would submit a plan, and I presume that at least some 
preparation in the event - after looking at this - I should 
decide that they must now rework their system, that that 
was the purpose for putting the 10-day period in there, but

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I must first decide if I am going to require them to submit 
a plan to issue, and that's what I propose to do at this 
time, and that of course is what all of our evidence has 
been about. And they say they are in compliance and you 
say with equal urgency and candor and sincerety that you 
are not, you are operating a dual system; that it would 
seem to me, and that is contrary to what Mr. V/omble says, 
that on the prelirainary aspect - and I think we are just 
talking about really a technicality, that we've heard the 
case on its merits, and you agreed to that and the defendant 
did not, that we would hear it on its merits. The defendant 
did not see fit to do so, so it came here - just looking 
at it as lawyers - on the preliminary injunction aspect. 
Thinking about it over the night it looked to me as maybe - 
as to whether it is truly a unitary system or not was not 
the appropriate ruling just now; that in a preliminary 
injunction ordinarily you don't answer the issue on the 
merits. But this is somewhat an unusual situation that we 
have. It's unusual in this district inasmuch as we never 
had this protracted a matter on a preliminary injunction.
If we had just one-tenth this much time to spend on pre­
liminary injunctions, we couldn't possibly with eight 
judges keep up with them, /nd I am not complaining about 
that. Any time you start talking about children of people, 
you are talking about matters that are close to their hearts,

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nnci that is just as true of one race as the other, and it 
should be given attention, and I expect to do just that.

All right. Reflect counsel’s motion in the 
record, counsel for plaintiffs* motion in the record, and 
that the Court will take the motion under consideration.

All right. Let's recess until Friday morning at
9:30.

(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled 
matter was closed.)

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CERTIFICATE

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA 
COUNTY OF FORSYTH

I, Graham Erlacher, Notary Public in and for the 
County of Forsyth, State of North Carolina, and Official 
Court Reporter in the Middle District of North Carolina, do 
hereby certify:

That on the 9th day of January, 1970, there appeared
before me the foregoing witnesses in the above-entitled case;

That the said testimony was then taken at the time and 
place mentioned, beginning at 10:00 o'clock a.m. on January 
9, 1970;

That the said witnesses were duly sworn and examined 
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth in said case;

That the foregoing testimony was taken by me on steno- 
mask and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my super­
vision, and the foregoing eight hundred eighty-four (884) 
pages contain a full, true and correct transcription of all 
the testimony of said witnesses;

That the undersigned Graham Erlacher is not of kin or 
in any wise associated with any of the parties to said 
cause of action or their counsel, and that I am not inter­ested in the event thereof.

c^IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
~________  day 0f April, 1970.

^  Cl '‘l__ /  t f .— f ,  / U -:. - y

Official Court Reporter

My commission expires: 
August 23, 1970

G R A H A M  E R L A C H E R  & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f u i a l  C o u r t  R e p o r t e r s  

A S H E  D R I V E  

W I N S T O N  S A L E M .  N C 

P h o n e  7 6 5  0 6 3 6

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