Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Testimony Transcription
Public Court Documents
March 1, 1968
125 pages
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Testimony Transcription, 1968. cdfe5fbd-c29a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/f7e1cefa-fe9f-42bb-b1e7-b7f6473aecd3/rock-v-norfolk-western-railway-company-testimony-transcription. Accessed May 04, 2025.
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w ith reference to war t in s cond itions?
A Hot unusual a t a l l . ta f . 0t , I - . g*.-
say th a t w ith a l l candor i t , as a general ru le takes sons
t i a s . s o a e tia e . «*oh t i a s . Too auoh, in v opinion.
* H<m , whan th is was consuaasted or s e t t le d ,
I believe th a t i t allowed a 40 eent per day per a n fo r a
Barney TSrd sen fo r s i r hose connectionsj d id i t not?
4 That i s r ig h t , yes, s i r . For conductors,
brakaasn and the aen working on the duapere.
w was th is an agraaasnt s e t t le a e n t pursuant
to the Railway Labor Act a t th a t time ?
A Yes, a i r .
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* Vaa I t agreed, to tha bast of your knowledge]
*»/ tha -Barney XSrd and by the OTU and by the ra ilro a d ?
A i t was agreed to se ttlam en t whan I as
general « h a lm n signed ay name to the w ritten agreement
e ffe c tiv e March 1, 1968, which was w ritten In the month of
February. 1 fo rg e t Ju st what d a te .
»4 And was th a t handled pursuant to the
Railway Labor Act?
A Yas, a i r .
Q Was a Section VI no tice served in th a t
~'f 1 In stance , os* not?
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A There had been n o tices served. But th is
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j M W was handled on h r p a r t w ithout n e c e ssa rily the
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M. Y. Lusk - D irec t jjq
, Section VI n o tice .
Q Mow, going to another su b je c t, th a t is the
5 e f f o r t of the men on the Barney Yard to ob tain sow* type of
4 aarger on the ro s te r s , did you take p a rt in any conferences
5 or n eg o tia tio n s in connection w ith th i s n a tte r?
(> A Mould you repeat the question?
• Q Did you take p a r t in any conferences or
8 nego tia tions in connection with e f fo r t s to obtain a aerger
9 of the ro s te r s of 974 and 550 by 974?
10 A (ki behalf o f, ana a t the request of the
11 ■sabers of Local 974 I did have conferences w ith the
12 c a r r ie r and advised the* of 974's p o s itio n , th a t in the
18 event th e re was an in teg ra tio n of any s e n io r i ty ro s te r s
" 1 1 ®**n topping and bottoming of any s e n io r i ty ro s te r s - -
15 j they would be node a p a rt of i t , among o th er th in g s .
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1 Q Mow, do you r e s e l l when th i s n a t te r f i r s t
17 °*ae to your a tte n tio n as general chairmen?
• A August 24, 1967.
19 I Q And do you r e c a l l how i t came to your
a tte n tio n , and what was being requested by 974 a t th a t
2i j time?
A i t was through a co n n n io a tio n th a t was
over the s igna tu re of the then s e c re ta ry - tre a su re r of
21 j 974, Mr. M. E. Peanort.
And do you know what th a t o rgan ization —i
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M. Y. Lustc - D ire c t 779
requesting w ith re spec t to what type of mreger i t was
i requesting a t th a t time?
A I f th e re was any in te g ra tio n , and I believe
topping or bottoming, they would be Included as a p a r t of
th a t In teg ra tio n and/or topping and bottoming. i stand
| to be corrected on th a t . I t la hard to remember the exact
con ten ts , but th a t was the question .
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Now, what d id you do pursuant to th a t coming
up and coming to your a t te n tio n . What a c tio n , I f any, did
you ta k e r
A As per th a t request I requested and was
accorded a conference with the c a r r ie r o f f ic e r fo r the
purpose of handling th a t , and o ther questions th a t had been
put forward by Local 974. And with the a ss is tan ce of the
s e c re ta ry - tre a su re r , Mr. M. E. Fesnort of 974 and the Local
Chairman Robert Rock.
<4 Did these e f fo r ts continue In connection
with th is over a period of time?
A Yea, a i r .
Q And can you t e l l me what the p o s itio n of
974 was a t these conferences th a t were held to d iscuss th is
m atter?
A I t was th a t they f e l t they were e n t i t le d
to the f i v e or s ix items th a t they had H a ted , and I t was
th e i r p o sitio n th a t they should get I t co rrec ted .
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k Dio they sp ec ify whether they wanted topping
or bottoming, or whether they wanted d o v e ta ilin g in d e a li i*
w ith th ia problem a t th a t tlma?
A The word d o v e ta ilin g aa aueh, I do not
r e c o lle c t being mentioned.
^ Vom» dld y°u have oooaaion to le a rn of
the p o s itio n of Local 550 in the CT yard w ith reference to
se rg e r th a t was propoeed by 974?
A At a l a t e r date I waa advised inform ally
th a t personally Local had ta b le d , or something, some
proposal s im ila r to th a t in the p a s t .
Q Mow, as the genera l chairman, la i t your
duty to attem pt to g e t the agreement of these lo ca ls whim
are a l l under your Ju r is d ic t io n , to get th e i r agpeemamfc
they had a disagreem ent, to get th e i r agreement as to
id iatsvsr ac tio n may be taken?
^ • s i r . z t i s th e job of the general
chairmen as rep re sen ta tiv e of both groups to t r y to to o an I
•ny disagreem ent between any two groups th a t he re p re se n ts ,
i f p o ss ib le .
Q And d id you name d i l ig e n t e f fo r ts to get
the two o rgan isa tions to work th i s problem cnt and a rr iv e
a t seam agreement on i t ?
* • And with the a ss is ta n c e of an
In te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e r .
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M. Y. Lusk - D ire c tM. Y. Lusk - D irect 781
1 Q
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Who was th a t?
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A Fred Hardin.
3 <4 And he la here in the courtroom, I
4 ! b e lie v e ?
5 A Yes, s i r .
t> Q What d id you do?
i i *i
Who had been assigned by the p re s id en t.
H Did you con tac t the p residen t o f the
9 United T ransportstIon Union end request th i s assignm ent. o r
10 • o m o m e e e le t you in th i s regard?
11 A YWa, s i r . That i s the normal course when
12 YOU here a d ispu te th a t seems to not be able to re so lv e .
13 then you ask fo r a ss is tan ce from th e p re s id e n t, and he
H assigns a ss is ta n c e , an in te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e r .
In Q D idn 't Fred Hardin jo in with you in these
10 e f fo r t s to n eg o tia te th is s e t t e r to a s a t is fa c to ry
17 conclusion?
1H | A Yes, s i r .
19 Q And did you continue w ith these e f fo r ts
•_>o 1 u n t i l such t in e as soma leg a l ac tio n was taken?
21 j A Yes, s i r .
22 j
! Q Now, during the testim ony here you have
23 | heard testim ony regarding a l e t t e r which was w ritten to
24 you by It*. N anette, I believe dated November 1, 1968.
25 Do jrou r e c a l l th a t testim ony?
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A The l e t t e r ?
Q Or mbs i t another d a te . i t la i l e t t e r
which has been - -
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A I t was dated October 31, 1968 and
received by m on November 1 , 1968.
4 I believe th a t was a l e t t e r which re fe rred
to a d o v e ta ilin g of the ro s te r s j i s th a t co rre c t?
A Yes, s i r , from the c a r r ie r suggesting th a t .
Q Suggesting th a t ?
A Yes.
Q Now, does th a t l e t t e r have any leg a l e f fe c t
when I t cones In to your hands?
A No, s i r . I t was to ns only a suggestion
by the c a r r ie r . i t was not forwarded to ns under the
p rov isions of the e x is tin g laws regard ing suoh a n a t te r aa
change of s e n io r ity .
Q And would the e x is tin g laws, would th a t be
the Railway Labor Act and Section VI of t t o t a o t. Would
th a t be the appropriate no tice to serve on you in order to
i n i t i a t e some leg a l proceedings through the Railway Labor
Act?
A Yes, s i r .
4 And th a t was not served upon you?
| A By the c a r r ie r , no, a i r .
What did you do a f te r you reosivsd the4
M Y. Luak - D ire c t 783
l e t t e r from the Norfolk and Western R ailroad?
A Thl» l e t t e r of suggestion Miloh the t e r r i e r
*as forwarding to the In te rn a tio n a l p re s id e n t, h r . C harles
Lona, November 5 , 1968.
* And what happened a f te r th a t?
A Then the next ac tio n taken, of c o \rs e , the
o f f ic e r had a lready been assigned by the in te rn a tio n a l and
th a t la why i t was re fe rred to the in te rn a tio n a l. We M a
conference with the p a r tie s Involved, November 15, 1968,
a t Norfolk, V irg in ia .
Q Now, you a a id the p a r tie s involved. Who
did you have a conference with?
A with th ree o ff ic e rs of Local 974, and la te r
th ree o ff ic e rs of Local 550.
Q You met sep a ra te ly ?
A Yea, a i r .
Q Was th is a fu r th e r n eg o tia tio n and a f fo r t to
bring about a se ttlem en t between the p a r tie s ?
A Y»a, a i r .
4 Do you r e c a l l what waa o ffe red , i f
anything, e i th e r by the UTU or by e i th e r o rgan isa tion w ith
reference to s e t t l in g i t a t th a t t i m ?
A At th a t time we offered to the o f f ic e rs on
the p a r t of the membership of 974 a proposed agreement
th a t had been agreed to as between the c a r r ie r end the
(r
M. Y. Lusk - D ire c t 7S*
, United T ransporta tion Onion fo r the topping and bottoalng
2 of Ind iv idual s e n io r i ty ro s te r s .
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5 I 5 What w*8 the P o sitio n of 974, I f you know,
i r e la t iv e to th a t proposed agreement?
" I A Qf the th ree o f f ic e rs concerned you are
saying ?
Q Yba, s i r .
A The th ree o f f ic e rs said a t th e term in ation
of the conference th a t they , as in d iv id u a ls , of course,
could not decide fo r the membership of gqk as to whether
th is would be acceptable or no t, and th a t they would
c e r ta in ly have to handle th is w ith th e i r nufeersh lp fo r
fu r th e r advice. a i t one of the p a r t ie s , Mr. I . b . Johnson
did suggest th a t th e topping and bottoming possib ly should
be accepted.
Q But i t was not?
A I t was no t, no, s i r .
Q Lid anything develop l a t e r as f a r as — you
said a t th a t time they could not accept i t , th a t they would
have to go back and speak to th e i r membership. f id you
hear anymore from th is as fa r as whether or not they would
acocpt i t ?
A Several days l a te r th e re was a telephone
conversation between ay vice general chairman who waa in
my o ffic e w hile I waa out of town. He recei**d a phont
^ $ 6 n
M. Y. Lusk - D ire c t 785
c a l l from the then lo ca l chairman Robert Rock saying th a t
th e re were two ad d itio n a l th ings th a t they thought I f th»y
were placed In the agreement th a t had been w ritten th a t I t
} could possib ly be acceptable to th e membership o f 97*.
Q Do you know what they were?
(i ! A S p e c if ic a lly they were fo r the f l l l l j * of
vacancies, the one item was, and the o ther was being a
H I d if f e re n t sec tio n o f th e agreement. They did In te r fe re
9 w ith the normal procedure of a e n lo r lty In f l l l l i * e x is tin g
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10 I vacancies on a term inal yard, or whatever. And they
n in jec ted themselves In to th a t normal procedure and did not
12 j follow the topping and bottoming procedures which gives th s
13 i ™an» p r io r man the vacancy f i r s t . And by token of th a t ,
14 j of course, I t n a tu ra lly could a f f e e t s e n io r i ty standing
r, I of the men In e i th e r yard.
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Hi | Q That ad d itio n a l proposal would have a ffee ted
17 th e s e n io r i ty e x is tin g a t th a t time In both yards?
18 A
1 Tea, a i r , equa lly so.
19 1 * Squally b o ?
20 A Tea, s i r .
21 Q Did any fu r th e r developments take p lace to
22 reso lve th a t p a r tic u la r problem?
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A No, a i r . I d o n 't be lieve th e re was
24 anything fu r th e r than th a t . We J u i t could not agree aa
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1 th a t was, and In fringe upon s e n io r i ty of both p a r t ie s and
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H. Y. Lusk - D ire c t 786
could be used as such.
^ All r i g h t . Now, to the b est of jnour
knowledge has Local 974 appealed the lepaase th a t was
reached. Have they appealed I t to the Board of Appeals
through the noreel procedures of the c o n s titu tio n of
the Brotherhood of R ailroad Traliman?
A No, s i r .
3 Well, I would ask you what p rov isions are
th e re in your c o n s titu tio n fo r appeal of such n a t te r s when
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you reach an lapasse such as th is ?
A Any dec ision a f fe c tin g any nanber of the
aenbership th a t I rep resen t by a y se lf as general chalraaui
or by an in te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e r can be appealed to a board
known as a Board of Appeals, through the o rderly process
of the c o n s titu tio n th a t i s now in e f fe c t fo r the un ited
T ransporta tion Union.
3 Was th a t p rov ision in e f fe c t in your
c o n s titu tio n during the t in e th a t th is n a t te r reached an
lapasse and n eg o tia tio n s did not continue?
A Yes, s i r .
I 4 Now, t e l l m , i f you w il l , i f another
occasion cans about in which the aen on the CT Yard sought
to obtain sons s e n io r i ty p o s itio n s onthe Barney la rd aa
re ta rd e r operators?
A There was a board dec ision of the 1st
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D ivision of the n a tio n a l Railway Adjustment Board. I do
not remember Ju s t tha da ta of the board d ec is io n , bat tb s
question In th i s board d ec ision was th a t the Barney yard
was to be extended to or expands^ r a th e r , to Include car
re ta rd e r operator p o s itio n s , which a re s t i l l in ex istence .
And I t was tha p o s itio n of then Local 550 th a t In as
as they had a lready e s tab lish ed c a r re ta rd e r o p e ra to r^
s e n io r i ty , th a t they were e n t i t le d to th a t work which was
located w ith in the confines of the Barney yard. This was
ru led aga in st by the general chairman, w ith the a ss is tan ce
of general chairman K. H. Jones, w ith the a ss is tan ce of
the then a s s is ta n t to the p re s id e n t, V. W. s a tte rw h lte .
And th i s dec ision was appealed by Local 550, th a t they
should be able to wan these p o s itio n s In the Barney yard,
and the appeal was denied unanimously by the then Board of
Appeals of the Brotherhood of R ailroad Trainman.
a What was the b asis of the d en ia l of the
r ig h t of the men on the CT yard to go over tarns, or
exerc ise th e i r s e n io r i ty as re ta rd e r operato rs on the
Barney Yard. What was the b asis of th a t d ec is io n th a t they
could not do th a t?
A The b asis o f the d en ia l of the award, as I
have read i t , la to have allowed the eaployes of the
CT yard Local 550 to come In to the Barney yard Local 974,
would be an Infringem ent upon th e i r s e n io r i ty r ig h ts . And
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under the ru le s of the then Brotherhood of R ailroed
Trainmen th a t , of course, was not allow able.
<4 Now i t brings up the question of the
importance or lack of importance of lack of s e n io r i ty r ig h ts
on the ra ilro a d . What importance do they hold in the
ra ilro a d employes employment w ith the r a i l ro a d t
A The ra ilro a d in d u stry as a sh a le , and, of
course, to ay experience, the Norfolk and w estern, to them
s e n io r i ty i s probably, I would say , c e r ta in ly w ithout
re se rv a tio n , the ao st valuable p roperty th a t you have in
your p o s itio n as a ra ilro a d employe. And I might
c la r i f y th a t by saying th a t vary few in d u s tr ie s th a t Z mi
aware of o ther than the ra ilro a d in d u stry does an am ilaja
who h ire s l a s t week get the same r a te of pay fo r th i r
p o s itio n worked aa the employe who wea h ired 20 yeare age.
The only d iffe ren ce between the two in th a t th e m e th a t
h ired 20 years ago can by a token of h is s e n io r i ty seek
and secure a b e t te r Job and have acre s e c u r ity . S e n io rity ,
in o ther words, i s a l l im portant on th e ra il ro a d .
Q New, was th e re s b asis fo r two sep ara te
s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s in Norfolk in the Norfolk yard. what
ia the b asis fo r having two s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s th e re T
A They wore c la ssed , Z imagine, aa two
yards. This was dons many years ago.
_ And is i t unusual when you have two
(p i O ik
M. T. Lusk - D ire s t 789
sep ara te yards which do two separa te types of work to hare
two s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s ?
A Is i t unusual?
Q Is i t unusual?
A No, s i r .
4 Do you know o ther p laces where they have
s im ila r s i tu a t io n s , o ther s im ila r type operations?
A Where th e re are s e n io r i ty ro s te r s w ith in a
yard?
Q Yds, s i r .
A Not on the N ft W in p a r t ic u la r , but I do
know of i t , yes, s i r .
Q. Now, one of the a lle g a tio n s in the s u i t in
th i s ease i s th a t the cost of th e re being two lo ca ls in
Norfolk, two lo c a l lodges, th a t i s , th a t th is has brought
about some u n fa ir p references over one as to the o th er.
Would you t e l l as whether or not the f a s t th a t they have
two lo ca l lodges has anything whatsoever to do w ith the
working conditions or the co n trac t n a tte rs ?
A Nona th a t I know o f. You have both ways
on th a t s i tu a t io n . You have sonatinas sev e ra l lo c a l
chairmen w ith in a lodge but rep resen tin g d if fe re n t s e n io r i ty
d i s t r i c t s , but sons rep resen tin g the ssne.
Q What is the b as is fo r the makeup of the
membersh i p, l e t '■ ja y , of 550. Does i t have anything t s
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M. Y. Lusk - D ir e s t 790
do with race , co lo r or creed?
A Not th a t I know of. There a re , of course,
black men and white men in both lo c a ls .
Q Is th e re any re je c tio n on the basis of race ,
co lo r or creed , to your knowledge, in e i th e r lo ca l?
A Not th a t I know o f, but the union i t s e l f
does not con tro l who the c a r r ie r h ire s or d o e sn 't h ire .
4 I understand th a t . Am I c o rre c t th a t you
au st belong to Local 550 i f you work in the Of Yard ?
A Yes, s i r .
Q But the fa c t th a t you are in Local 550,
th is i s the converse of the s i tu a t io n , as I understand i t ,
the f a s t th a t you belong to Local 550, or to another lodge,
d o e sn 't assn th a t you nust work in a c e r ta in p laea . Z
naan, i t i s the o ther way around, where your work i s the
decid ing fa c to r of what lodge you are in?
A That i s c o rre c t.
Q Does the united T ransporta tion Union, to
your knowledge, have any p o licy p ro h ib itin g the nsrg lng
of these lo ca ls i f they want to merge?
A Quite the co n tra ry . I t i s the po licy
of the p resid en t of the United T ransporta tion Union to put
any and a l l lo c a ls together th a t can be put to g e th er to
avoid any unnecessary expenses and e lim ina tion of of f le e r s ,
as f a r as th a t la concerned.
i 1 2 Jk
M. Y. Lusk - C ross
th e re were s n j pending?
A Not w ithout checking ay f i l e s and records.
C erta in ly there are easy o la la s outstanding in ay reco rds,
and aany o is le s arc s e t t le d as a r e s u l t of ag reesan ts.
f tit I would have to check the record .
<4 Do you know whether you discussed the
pending d a l e s a t the t i e s you are ta lk in g about the
a p p lica tio n of the a i r hose ru le?
A Many th in g s , s i r , are discussed in
n eg o tia tio n s .
m 1 ae not ta lk in g about the aany th in g s ,
Nr. Lusk. I aa ta lk in g about the e la la s .
m COURTS I f you know, say yes. And
i f you d o n 't , say so.
THK WITNESSj I ju s t d o n 't know, s i r , a t
th is t l a e .
BY W*. HKLTOMs
Q You t e s t i f i e d , Nr. Lusk - - l e t ae show
you the October 31, 196# l e t t e r . I th in k you saw i t
yesterdays i s th a t co rrec t?
Ml. WORTH DOT ON t What document a re you
re fe r r in g to now?
THE COURTS October 31# 196# l e t t e r , or
'67 l e t t e r . *6# le t t e r .
6 <r$* .
M. y. Lusic - C ross
3
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the WITNESSt Ye», s i r , I saw th is
l s t t s r .
BY NR. BELTON*
I f you want to r s f l s o t a
(o e1H X
»nt, Nr. Lusk,
3 Q I th ink you t e s t i f i e d yesterday a f te r
H you received
1 th is you had conversations with sous of the
7 o f f ic ia ls of 97*) i s th a t c o r re c t?
8 A A fter wa received th i s le tte rT
9 <4 Yes.
10 A Yes, s i r .
11 Q Did you t a l l then th a t you had th i s l e t te r ?
12 A I th in k tha l e t t e r , while not o f f i c ia l ly
13 presen ted , was known.
14 Q Did you t a l l th ea th a t you had received
15 tha la t te r ?
1(S A I d o n 't reaeaber.
17 Q Now, who did you ta lk to a f te r you
18 | raoaivad th is l e t t e r of 97*?
19 A With whoa did I ta lk a f te r I received **><»
20 l a t te r ?
21 j
Ii
Q O ffic ia ls of 97*?
22 i A Yes. Nr. Rock, Nr. Johnson, Nr. Haynes,
2.3 | I b e liev e . J aean, th e re could have bean o thers but
24 thasa ware a t the ac tu a l nesting .
M. Y. Lusk - Cross 803
you asy. mat do you r e c a l l t e l l in g any of the o f f ic ia ls
or anybody th a t you spo ts to from 974 th a t you had
le tte rT
A I d o n 't reasaber whether I s p e c if ic a l ly
to ld th ea or n o t, no, s i r .
Q I th in k you did t e s t i f y yesterday th a t
you had soas conversation w ith both h r . Rock and h r.
johnaon about topping and bottoming; i s th a t co rre c t?
A Topping and bottoming procedure.
4 Of the Barney Yhrd?
A lb s , s i r .
4 Now, oould you t e l l as once again , Nr. Lack,
what Nr. Rock said to you with re spec t to the a c c e p ta b ili ty
of topping and bottoaing?
A Nr. Rock?
Q Yes.
A b e l l , i f I reasaber c o r re c tly a t one t ia e
th is was an acceptable th in g . The topping and bo ttoa ing
procedure, i f i t could have been done. But then i t
became ob jec tionab le fo r soae reason beyond ay knowledge.
Q I th in k you gave two s t ip u la tio n s or two
th in g s th a t had to be added in your d ire c t te s t ia s n y , i f
i t were to be acceptable to NT. Rock. I am try in g to
c la r i f y those two th ings.
A I f I t were acceptable?
M. Y. Lusk - Cross 804
Q R igh t.
a At on* t i n i t was, yea, a i r .
4 With severa l ad d itio n s to th s proposal?
A Thors wars two, I th in k .
<4 I d id n 't q u its eatoh i t yesterday whan you
were te s t i f y in g , and I would l lk s to c la r i f y i t fo r the
rso o rd , and fo r ay own in fo ra a tlo n . What wars those two
th ings th a t you Ind iestad Nr. Rook said ought to be sddsd
to th a t proposal?
A I t was th a t , i f ay aaaory serves as
c o rre c tly , and I d o n 't have the w ritten two ad d itio n s to
the topping and bottoning procedure th a t was reooaaendsd.
They wars f i l l i n g or vacancies fro n the eaargency l i s t ,
ao -ca llac easrgancy l i s t , as i f they had bean used fron
the reg u la r l i s t ahead of the eaargency l i s t fron one ysrd
to another. And I asauna they a*ant th is v ice -v ersa .
Of cou rse , th a t i s an in te rru p tio n of ths s chedule
sgreeasn t in the proeess fo r f i l l i n g e x is tin g vacancies
through s e n io r i ty and through the s greeasnt .
(4 Did you understand what he neant on th a t
po in t alone?
A Did I understand what he neant?
<4 Yea, in te rn s of th a t ad d itio n .
a By those two proposals?
<4 Yes.
A Mow, tho eoaaunloatlon was not betweenI
myself persona lly and Nr. Rook on thoso two proposals as
such. I t was botwoon ay v ice-g en era l chairman over a
phono, and i t was ooplad down and handed to a s .
3 So you d id n 't - - you were not a t th a t
aeetlng?
A This was a telephone conversation where
l
th i s was In jec ted , s i r .
Q L e t 's c la r i f y fo r the record then , Nr. Lusk
a f te r the October 3 1 , 1968 l e t t e r , what conferences. I f
any, did you p a r tic ip a te In p ersona lly concerning the
merger in any fo ra of the OT la rd ro s te r and the Barney
Yard ro s te r?
A In any fora?
3 Yes.
A Oh, th e re were soae conferences between
th e , you know, the c a r r ie r as to the topping and bottoming
proposal and th i i* s lik e th a t , but the neat conference
w ith the o ff ic e rs of 97* was November 13 , 1968.
q Is th a t the la s t one you r e c a l l?
A S ir?
I
q Is th a t the l a s t conference you r e c a l l?
THE COURT! were th e re any. a f te r th a t?
I
A (Continuing) The telephone conversation
M. T. Lusk - Cross 805
was a f te r th a t regard ing the two a d d itio n a l lti X
1
.1
I
5
ti
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1H
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
M. Y. Lustc - c to m 806
d o n 't reaeaber Ju st — there m s no o f f io ia l conference
ss such p u t th a t po in t th a t I can ra o o lla o t ju s t offhand.
BY Ml. KLTOMi
^ ^ anything, n r . Luca, prevented
f ro a f i l in g a Section VI no tice w ith re spec t to
of the ro s te r s ?
A
Q
A
Nothing.
You could have done i t ?
With re sp e c t to follow ing a S ection VI
no tice fo r the nerger o f s e n io r i ty ro s te r s f
Q Yes.
A C erta in ly th a t by the c o n s ti tu tio n would
be an in te rru p tio n of s e n io r i ty of o ther people o ther than
those requesting sans, but I had no request fro n anyone
to serve a Section VI no tice which I , of course , n e t have
by the c o n s ti tu tio n .
Q Is i t your te s tin o n y th a t you c a n 't do
anything. You could not have done anything w ith re spec t
to nerger of the a t r o s te r and the Barney Ybxd re n te r
w ithout e i th e r 97* or 550 I n i t i a t in g the Section VI type
n o tle e ?
Without sene kind of in i t i a t io n pree
yes, a i r .
D id n 't you do th e a i r hose ru le
M. 7 . Lusk - C ross
happened la c e d la te ly th e re a f te r .
BY m . BELT OKI
Q Do you know. Nr. Lusk, w hsthsr or not the
V irg in ians th a t ws ta lk about now, th s people th a t eaae
ovar, a r t members of 550?
A Yes, s i r , as a rs o th sr ra i l ro a d s , by th s
way.
3 Several more questions, Hr. Lusk.
A 1 thought you wars going to g iro as two
■ora.
4 Onoe again , X w ill Ju st hand you th is . Did
you p a r tic ip a te in the n eg o tia tio n s —
MR. WORTH DOT ONt Which papar was th a t?
MR. BELTOHI October 31, 1968 l a t t e r .
B7 MR. BELTON:
£ Did you p a r tic ip a te in the l e t t e r leading
to the n ego tia tions of 1970 c o lle c tiv e bargaining agreement
with N & w?
A The 1970?
4 R ight.
A You mean January 1, 1970 schedule
agreement ?
* This agreement.
826
N. Y. Lusk - C ross 8*7
1 A Yea, s i r .
2 «i Did you p a r tic ip a te in th a t?
:t A Yes, s i r .
1 Q Could you Ju s t s o r t o f, i f you re ■sober.
*> t e l l the Court who fo r N I K p a r tic ip a te d in the
1) n eg o tia tio n s leading to th is c o n tra c t.
# A Of ooursc th e re were nany conferences and
H th is was a t in s consuming job of re w ritin g the agreement
9 and bringing i t up to d a te . But the p rin a ry personnel
l() o f f ic e r th a t d e a lt w ith ns on re w ritin g th i s agreement which
1 1
i
rep laces the one th a t had been e f fe c tiv e January 1, 195A,
12 was Nr, £ . N. M artin.
— 15 Q Do you r e c a l l whether during th e course o f
11 the n eg o tia tio n s , Mr. Lusk, th a t any of the company
15 o f f ic ia ls s ta ted to you th a t th is was the p o s itio n of the
U> soapany w ith re spec t to the merger of the Barney Yard and
17 CT Yard?
• A During the n eg o tia tio n s fo r th i s - - I mean,
19 the re w ritin g of th i s agreement?
20 <4 Yes, s i r . j
A No, s i r , th is was not re fa rre d to .
1
22 ' NR. BBLZOMi No fu r th e r questions.
2:1 CHS COUBTt Anything fu r th e r .
21 MR. WORTH DOT ON: We have no questions.
25 Your Honor.
1007^
«
M. Y. Lusk R e d ire c t 833
TH£ COURTt A ll r ig h t . Qo ahead.
■) la there anything fu r th e r .
MR. WORTHINGTONi Your Honor, I waived to
t crosa examination but I would l i s a perm ission to
0 change my aind fo r one to p ic .
H THE COURTi All r ig h t .
7 MR. WCRTHUWTOIft This was brought out on
8 cross examination by tha p l a in t i f f s , and i t was a
9 new su b jec t.
11)
1
11
12
RECROSS EXAMINATION
i;i by m . wGRTHmoaroiit
11 Q Nr. Lusa, th e re was some question asked
IT) you about conferences over th is 1970 add ition of the
IH
Norfolk and Western Railway Company ra te s of pay and
17 ' re g u la tio n s , whioh i s marked as P l a in t i f f s ' E xhib its Nos.
18
6 and 7 .
19 | A Yes, a i r .
20 Q You see i t j do you not?
21 1 A Yes, s i r .
22 i
1 <4 When did the conferences take place about
23 1
21
th is booklet here? I
Ov*r a long period of tin e up u n t i l tha d a ta .
the n f fa c tiv e d a ta . Somewhat p r io r to th a t , s u f f ic ie n t
'?C I &
834
t lM to have i t p r in te d . The nego tia tion* began ah o rtly
a f to r I u iu a td o ff ic e . Thia was ooa of ay d ea irea .
^ Now, th ia th in g , i th in k , ia marked
e ffa c tlv a January l , 1970 and aaya euparaading agreement
datad January l a t , 1954. war* th a ra any change* batwaan
the 1954 ed itio n and the 1970 e d itio n aa a f fa e ta the th ia g i
th a t are involved in th ia oaaaf
A Thara ware nany change* w ith in the
tg r tc a e n t aa i t now atanda and brought up to d a ta , with
p a r t ic u la r referenoe to the Barney Yard.
Q What ware thoae change*?
A Thara waa a complete two page memorandum
th a t applied a t r i o t l y to the Barney Yard th a t had bean
removed p r io r to ay aaaualng o f f le a , and th a t , of oouraa,
waa om itted.
4 Wall, in nego tia tion* th a t you p a rtle ip a te d
in , what change* ware made aa to Barney Yard employes?
THS COURT 1 V ail, the a i r hoaa.
A The a i r hoaa ru le , the merger agreement
e ffe c tiv e October 1, 1969.
BY MR. WORTHINGTON:
4 What do you mean the merger agreement
a f fe c tiv e 1969?
)CJ ^
M. Y. Luak - Reoroae
A P ro v id in g f o r th e q u a l i f ic a t io n * a n d /o r
M. T. Lusk - ftecrossl
4
.) i
8 :
10
1:1
17 !
18 :
i
19 !
20
21
2'1
21
2.i
r e s p o n s ib i l i t ie s of the employes whoa I rep resen t and the
c a r r ie r h ire s .
<4 Toes th is a f fe c t the Barney Yard, some
merger a ffo o tin g the Barney Yard ?
A Yes, s i r . I t a f fe c ts a l l esgtloyes of the
N k w proper.
■4 Well, when did the nego tia tions about th a t
agreement take p lace . I th in k you said i t took e f fe c t in
1969?
A The n eg o tia tio n s , s i r , were conducted ewer
a period of soas eleven months. I th in k , i f ay aeaory
serves as c o rre c tly , there were 65 days neg o tia tio n s with
the In te rn a tio n a l o ff ic e rs over th i s period on th is a c t te r .
<4 When did th a t take p lace , Mr. Lusk?
A 1966 and 1969.
4 '68 and '69?
A Yes.
4 Did th a t have anything to do with the
s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s between the Barney Yard and the CT Yard?
A Mo, s i r .
14 And i s i t not a fao t then th a t aost o f the
changes in th is 1970 e d itio n were negotiated back before
1969, and th a t th is was merely a p re sen ta tio n of a lo t of
th ings th a t had a lready been nego tia ted?
A Yes, s i r .
---------------- ----------- 835
M. Y. Lusk - R ecross 636
X j
!) j
|
11
12 j
12
14
15 j
K> |
17 !
IS
19 |
20 |
21 i
22 I
22
24
Q So that ths actu al n egotiation s about the
p rin tin g of th is 1970 th in g, aost o f ths oonfsrsnoss had
taiMn place before 19691 la th at r ig h t?
A Yes, s i r . Host of ths work involved was
proofing and o f what would go In and what would not go la ,
and things lik e th a t.
Q R ight. So th is 1970 thing was a e re ly Just
gathering the ohanges already aids and rep rin tin g tb sa f
A lb s , s i r , s in es 1954.
4 So In 1969 any conferences that you had
about th is P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit Roe. 6 and 7 were n e a t ly
about the p rin tin g of I t?
A Yes, s i r . And the correctn ess o f the sane
Q Mow, there was no occasion then fa r you
during that period of t ie s to r a is e anything about ths
asrgsr o f the s e n io r ity d is t r ic t s between the Barney Yhrd
and the CT Yard?
A Mo, s i r .
Q And you did not r a is e I t?
A Mo, s i r .
Q And there was no occasion fo r ths ra ilro a d
to ooaaent on I t at that t in s ; was there?
A No, s i r . There Is no p a rtic u la r reference
to the Barney Yhrd In th at agreeaant, with the exception
of the cover.
Q R ight. so th a t neg o tia tio n s th a t v t r t
had shout tha merger of th s Bam s7 Yard s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t ,
and th s CT Yard s e n io r ity d i s t r i c t were had a t th s l a s t ,
in th s la te part of 1968 a f te r you had these ta lk s about
topping and bottoming you got Nr. Rook's o b jec tio n s , and
th a t was about the la s t n eg o tia tio n s) i s th a t not o o rre e t,
• • ** the ra ilro a d is concerned?
M. Y. Lusk - R ecross 3y j
Q
in June, and
th s ra ilro a d
In '68, yes, s i r .
And th i s s u i t was brought in 1969, I th in k
th ere has been no conference between you and
since the s u i t was brought on th is su b je s tj
has there?
A With th s ra ilro a d since the s u i t was
brought?
Q Since the s u i t was brought?
A go, s i r .
MR. WORTHIMUFOMi That i s a l l .
THE COURT1 A ll r ig h t . Step down.
MR. BELTOKt One second.
BY MR. BELTOKl
Q What, i f anything, to your knowledge
prevented or prevents the union fro* ra is in g the question
of merger of the Barney Yard and CT Yard a t any t in s .
Is th e re anything in the document to prevent you from doing
7 C
M. Y. Lusic - R to ro ia 338
3 |
4 I
. 1 ■)
x
!» |
10 I
th a t , to ra is e i t with the eoopany?
A To merge tha s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s ?
Q To p a t i t io n tha company to d iscuss tha
merger?
A Mo, a i r , thara is no t, nor a lso i s these
anything in tha book th a t provides fo r i t .
h Under tha Section VI p rov isions we talioed
about, can you now p e t i t io n tha company or put than on
notioa you wish to d iscuss i t ?
A Tha merging of s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s ?
^ Yes. Wouldn't th a t be an appropria te
12 j s ta r t in g p o in t, a t le a s t a Section VI c la in ?
I
1 THE COURT* He has said th a t ha oou ldn 't
do th a t unless soae union requested i t . As I
ir> ! understand i t , i t h a s n 't been requested .
MR. BELTCH* That is not mj question . Your
17 ! Honor.
THE COURT* You mean can ha i n i t i a t e i t
w ithout th i s request?
MR. BELTQW* I want to mow i f th e re is
anything th a t prevented him from doing i t .
THE COURT* That i s the sane question . Is
th ere any reason you o a n 't i n i t i a t e on year own
hook a aargar of these th in g s , without e i th e r union
requesting i t ?
) i>u X
M. Y. Lusk - R ecross
8 3 9
THK WITUSSSj C erts in 1j there is .
» i
H) |
11 !
12 III
12 I
1 I
lb
H MR. BELTOMt
* You can do i t , you are saying?
A What do you naan. C erta in ly , there
raasons why I cannot put s e n io r i ty ro s te r s to g e th er.
t l» y » r . not oont.inod w ithin th a t boot ln d l t id n n l i , .
, r * contained w ith in the e o n a tltu tlo n of tho Unltod
T ransporta tion Union.
*ffi. BELTON: No fu r th e r questions.
THE COURT* Step down.
(Witness excused.)
But
They
L. Bo TERRY, ca lled as a w itness by e»*d
on behalf of the United T ransporta tion Union, being f i r s t
du ly sworn, t e s t i f i e d as follows*
20
2.1
i
DIRECT EXAMINATION
! BY W . MOODY*
Q S ta te your nans and address, p lease .
L. B. Terry. 5637 Cape Henry AveauSj
24 | Norfolk, V irg in ia .
S) , _
j _____ 5 ___ w'*r * *** you eng>loyed, Mr. Terry?
7 0 1 X
I*. B. T e rry - C ross 845
BY MR. BALLER:
Q Do you Know your exact Oats or e^ lo y m ra t
w ith Norfolk and Western R ailroad as a brejeeoan?
THE COURT s i bet you im oan t e l l you
w ithin twenty s ln u tea .
A 8-31-61.
8 I
9
I10
11
12 I
13
14
ir> |
Hi
IT j
18 !
19 !
20 |
21 I
22 I
23
21
jo u r promotion to
BY Ml. BALUKRt
Q August 31, 1961?
A Yes, s i r .
Q And what was the Sate of
conductor?
A 1-8 64.
Q la th a t about an average length of tlm s fo r
promotion from breusman to eonduetor in the yard?
A i t was two years and fiv e months. I d o n 't
know I f th a t i s average or no t.
MR. BALLERt Mo fu r th e r qu estlen s .
THE COURTS All r ig h t . C all
w itn ess .
(Witness excused.)
HOUSTON w. Ki r r a , ca lled as a w itness by and
on behalf of the United T ransporta tion union, being f i r s t
H. W. K itts - D irec t
d u l / sworn, t e s t i f i e d ss follow s:
846
i
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOODYs
<; •
j Q S ta te your nsae and add ress, p lease .
7 j A Houston *, H i t ts , IHd* stpsnd s t m t ,
* Norfolk j V irg in ia .
9 4 Where are you employed, Mr. K itts?
10 A Norfolk and Western Railway Company.
11 4 And what type work do you do?
12 A I a« a bratceasn, conductor.
13 4 When did you go to work fo r the Norfolk and
11 Western?
l.i A I went to work here January I 96I .
10 Q Did you work sons o ther p lace p r io r to th a t?
17 A i worked out of Roanoke on the
1* ■sin lin e .
19 w When did you go to work a t Roanoke?
20 ; A Operating departm ent, 1955.
21 ! Q And when you came to Norfolk yard, did you
22 be core a uii
o f a local of United T ransporta tion Union?
2:i | A At th a t t in e i t was HRT, yes, s i r , sane
21 union.
25
Which lo ca l was th a t?
! i t cn
H. W. K itts - D irect
A .
8*7
2 And which yard did you go to work on here?
D 1 A1
Well, we re fe r to I t as the CT Yard, the
1 msIn yard, th« big yard .
5 Q Now, have you worked re g u la rly in th a t yard
(> j s in es 1961?
1
•
t A With the exception of about 20 days in
8 1961, and February i t f a l l o ff whan I was furloughed fo r
9 about 2 0 days.
ID Q Have you had oeoasion a lso to observe the
1! Barney Yard here in Norfolk to see the type work th a t is
12 ca rried on in the Barney Yard?
•w>- ID A Yes, s i r .
14
* And how did you see th a t . Do you have
15 occasion to go to the Barney Yard?
Hi A White o ften , yes, s i r .
17
Q Is th a t any d i f f s r e n t , and i f so , what are
•
18 some of the d iffe ren ces between the work of the men working
19 !| on the Barney Yard and the work of the brake own on the
1
2D Barney Yard and the brskeaen on the CT Yard?
21 A Wall, there i s no poin t in - I was always
■>•>
a l i t t l e envious myself.
2D
<4
1
Why were you envious?
21 j
i ''. 'I A I t seemed to me a whols lo t s s s l s r and they
‘
25 i
| were not fo rever ty in g brakes on heavy cu ts of coal going
1 / 0 ?v
H. W. K i t t s - S l f t e t 846
up th ere .
Q
A
a
E asier on the Barnejr Yard?
Yes* s i r .
And you said they were not fo rev er ty i i*
brakes on thosa c a rs . I . th a r . a n , - 1 . i t d l f f l w l t to
j t i e brakes an ra ilro a d ears In the CT yard?
i
A W ell, whan you put 20 to 30 oar cu te of s e a l
| on the Barney yard , and i t to downgrade on the e a s t end
i "h*” th *r dro" **» o ff the h i l l and, you m
I t r x *° t U * ‘ f * " on two or th ree cars to hold the
c u t. So you keep alack bunoh fo r t h e . to p u ll the p ine ,
and you Ju s t h a e e ^ o - ^ i t 1 . atrenuoue. M th e r th a t or
you have to go oar .ty ing token brakes on each and every am
of thee.
Q Is i t unususl in the CT Yard to have te
operate these brakes while these ea rs are w i n e ?
A Oh, yes. we have to t i e brakes. we never
go on the h i l l without a brake on the re a r fo r f e a r you
break in two or cone uncoupled or sonsth ing , you are going
to have a run away and te a r the p ie r up. Bat we always
have a brake on the r e a r and i f we are shoving in sons of
these yards th a t has a grade, a downgrade, we are going to
leave then standing on the tra c k s , we have to t i e then down
a l l the t l m e .
S ta te whether or not you work re g u la rly
l l l X
4
H. W. Kitts - Direct
10
11
12
13
14
17
IK
on moving t r a in s in the CT yard.
A Would you repeat the question?
Would you s ta te whether or not you
required to work re g u la rly during your tenure of duty on
the CT Yard on moving tra in s ?
A All the tim e. That is ex ac tly what the
Job i s . And t r a in s movement on adjacent trac k s in e i th e r
or both sec tions continuously. And you have a l l crossovers
and everyth ing has to be lined up p roperly before you
your movement. You have to know the d istance of wtoas
are going, how much clearance you have in a tra c k , and how
■any ears you put in a tra c k .
Q How long would i t take a man to learn the
work of a brakeman on the CT Yard to be able to ca rry out
the Job without any a ss is tan ce or help?
A Well, when I went to work on the ra ilro a d
in the operating department I was on the main l in e , and I
thought I was a r ig h t f a i r brakeman on the main l in e . But
19 coming to Norfolk and working in th is yard down here i t took
me a couple of years to learn my way around. I would say
J> to be a good brakeman you would have to work a couple or
>2 |
th ree y e a n to r e a l ly get where you could pay, you know, pay
your own way.
i _* Now, in your work on the yard here in
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Norfolk, in your observation of the Barney 1**1* would you
h 2 ^
H. w. K i t t s - D ire s t
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s ta te whether or not the work on the Barney yard i s any
■ore d i f f i c u l t or aen ia l or d i r t i e r than the work on the
CT Yard?
1 j A C erta in ly not as hard. i t la not as
com plicated. 1 a o n 't see how i t could he any d i r t i e r , fo r
() the simple reason we hare to a limb around the top of the
cars a l l the t in e In the coal d i r t and the wind blowing
« an<s P i t t in g /o u r eyes ou t. They even provide us w ith
» g lasses when the wind is blowing. of course, they
10 ! hinder your v is io n quite a b i t . They do nine.
n * You w t r goggles o r s a fe ty g lasses in the
12 ct yard?
1:5 A You d° wh«n the wind is blowing, yes, s i r .
11 Q Are they worn in the Barney yard, to your
i;'> ; knowledge?
Ih j A I have never seen anyone w ith th ea on.
|
17 | Q in your capac ity as a member of
!
' Local 550, have you held any o ff ic e s in th s t lo c a l, and i f
19 so* which o ff ic e s hsve you held?
A I was p residen t of Local 550. X was
21
22
28
24
28
e lec ted November 1966 and assumed o ff ic e January 1, 1987,
and held th a t o ff ic e through Deoember 31, 1969. Three
y e a rs .
4 Now, during th a t period of tim e, November
1966 u n t i l December 1969, do you know*as p residen t of
I I * o
851
1 Local 550, of any request by Local 974 fo r the merger of
2 th es* two lo c a ls , not speaking of the s e n io r i ty ro s te r s .
3 I am speaking of the two f r a te rn a l o rg an isa tio n s . Have
1 you had any request from 974 to merge?
H. W. Kitts - Direct
5 A No, s i r .
0 Q You hsve not?
1 A Not to ay knowledge. No one approached ms
H about i t .
!) Q Would you t e l l me, i f you knew, what would
10 take place as fa r as o f f ic e rs of the lo ca ls are coaserned
11 i f these two f ra te rn a l lo ca ls should serge w ith each o th e rt
12 A Well, i t goes w ithout saying we only hare
1
13 ! one s e c re ta ry - tre a su re r , one p re s id e n t, and one d e leg a te ,
14 #nd on# le g is la t iv e re p re se n ta tiv e , and oae lo ca l chairmen
r’ ! fo r our te rm inal, and so on. I t would Just be a n a t te r
1H of someone losing o ff ic e rs .
Q And what is the comparison in th e members
of the two lo c a ls . Do you know the membership,
19 j comparative membership?i
A I d o n 't know ex ac tly how many is in the
1
Barney Yard, but I would say we have twice as assy , or
11 j maybe a few more.
«i And have you known of any provision in a
s i tu a t io n of th is kind where they did merge whereby i t
would be fe a s ib le o r p ra c t ic a l to have a c e r ta in portion
H. W. Kitts - Diroot
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of t h . mmmbtr^Xf l a U v l d u . i l , r « p r . . . . t . d tn th .
<*»t I m a t t i UKW. u th .* . IlMU Mw
,iM M " * pr**l<Unt- * l« « - p r . . i a .n t , 100.1 c h a i n . .
«»d .o fo r th or i . tto.ro ,ou oould . l o o t on. ^
to ro o o w n d ooa group of poopl. 1 . th* l u * lodg . tnd
*"°‘ h , r Pr*‘ “ *n t to « P « « n t Wottoor group of poopl. 1.
tlw m m lod«s?
A Mot p ro sId ee t. i don’t th in k tho grand
lodg . would O lio . i t . Mow, jrou «ould h .T . -
’*■ 00 loo t Ion. I mart to . t r i m .
That wasn’t Mis question .
THE COURT t Do jrou know of any waj you
sould haws two so ts of o ff lo o rs . i f you do, say
ysa. I f jrou don’t , say I don’t Know, i f you don’t
Know.
THE WITNESSi Wall, s i r , wo do navo two
so ts of o ff lo o rs fo r sons o fflo o rs roproson tlag
d if fe re n t groups of non, yes, s i r .
8*2
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BY m . MOODY:
« Aro th o y aaaboro o f two d lf fo r o n t o r a f t s ,
u s u a lly in th a aana l o c a l , or aro th o y wharo you haws
road«an, f o r s x s ^ i o , and you hava tho yardaan In tho m m
lo c a t io n . i s t h is tha s i t u a t io n whors you a ig h t haws
o f f l e s r a to ro p ro so n t sa sh o f th sa ?
7/5
d. JCltts — D lfto t 8*3
question
A I
I. £BL£QNi Objection to the
Ms Is loading the w itness,
belong to s lo e s i of th a t
of the
In
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i t m . noocYi
how, another question . D urlj* /o u r t
“ »»“ “ •«* o t U K «i 550, »0U14 ,o « s t . t . .M th n - or not
* M t ta r has h m on tho f lo o r r . c a r d i r , t h . m r g tr «f
the two ro s te r s between 974 and 550 ?
A hot aerglng of the r o s te r s , no, s i r .
^ ®** * n a t te r eons to th e f lo o r In
connection with lo w o ther asthod of p u ttin g the ro s te r s
I t has on th e f lo o r to top s«w» bott<
the ro s te r s .
22
2:1
*4 Could you t e l l us when and what ac tio n , i f
*°X» **s taxon on th s t n a tte r?
A I w il l have to app rox lasts the nenth. i t
was e i th e r September or October o f 1968. he had a abating
vlwiwai we discussed topping sad bottoming of the
s e n io r i ty ro s te r s w ith the o f f le e rs fro a 974 and 550, and
i t was brought to the f lo o r la our lodge.
Q A l l r ig h t , s i r .
A And the nen were no t favorable on one vote
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* * " • r °U “ •» « r . no t r.YOMbU.
th *7 Tot* I t on on* vo to f
A They d id .
Q And then whet happened?
* And in an o t te r t e o t l a . i t M , breusht m
•ad IT ay ae a a rr a*rv«a M
aorvo. te o o rro o tly , I t H l ta b lte . j
th in k i t le e t i u tab led .
11 411 r l «h t - *•• * * tta , on* o t t e r t e t t e r
m ted te opportun ity to mow of th . tu m o w of
« » io y o . tn t t e or Yard in M »folitf
A ™ - 1 '»**• te a dam t t e r w te r a .
« And Wtet te a boon t t e t u r n e r d u r ln t th .
p a r t four t e « n . Wtet t e . b e t t e t u r t e t e r In t t e
t e r f l a la rd . Ho. teny e te p lo y . . , i f ^ teM(> ^
been employed?
A Well, I would say in the peat two y ea rs ,
or two ted . t e l f y * e t t e , t e t e h i e 100 te n . * * X
would 75 t . 80 of t t e a « . t i n W M ««.
Q AH r ig h t , s i r .
A 3 one where in the neighborhood of *5 een
h*” . I t t e r q u it o r t e . a d l a e U r i t e o r « u ru lM M d.
4 In t t e l u t two f u n , .p p r o x lte to ly , you
« 7 t t e , . t e l o e 100 te n . Ho., t e v . you .t t e t e t t d - t e
® L * * * i« i f i t e t e . te r e . th a t do you tea* your f i n i t e
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H. V. K i t t s - D ire c t
on th a t you have ju s t given?
A Ju s t what I observed on the s e n io r i ty
ro s te r s over the past years.
MR. M O Q C I i We have no fu r th e r questions*
Tour Honor.
THE COURT* Cross-examine, Norfolk and
Western.
INI. WQRTHllRzrOMi We have no questions*
Tour Honor.
CROSS -KXANZHATIQM
BY MR. HAULER*
<3 Mr. K itts* mould you t e l l us uhat your
eaaet s e n io r i ty date i s as a Norfolk term inal yea*
braksasn.
A January ^4, 196I .
<3 And what is your date of s e n io r i ty as a
Norfolk term inal yard conductor?
A i t i s in January 1964.
Q Mow* during the period November 1966 to
December 1969* when I believe you t e s t i f i e d you were the
p re sid en t of Local 550, you s ta te d th a t your men had
d iscussed and considered a proposal re sp ec tin g topping and
bottoming from Local 974. Did you have any communication
«55
8• w. K itts - cross 856
f ro s tb s BUT regard ing any proposal of dov e ta ilin g ?
k Mo, s i r , i d o n 't .
4 Did you a t any M atin g of th a t union d lssu ss
o r rooalvs any CM naulcatlon fro n the Norfolk and Western
Conpany regarding d o v e ta ilin g ?
A No, a i r , I d id n o t.
Q Ju s t one f in a l th in g . In your observation
working in tb s or Yard over th e period of tb s l a s t few
y ears , have you noticed any change in tb s e f f le le n s y of
tb s operations there?
A w ell, the conpany has t r ie d t e m arasa tb s
o v e ra ll e f f ic ie n c y of the t e r a ln s l . They always Mve and
they continue to do th i s .
Q In your JudgMSt would you say th a t tb s
operations in the CT Yard are as e f f ic ie n t as they have
been In the past?
A I would say so , yes, s i r .
Q Mow, ju s t one f in a l th in g . Wee Id you t e l l
us how aany tin e a you have been furloughed since you worked
in the Norfolk term inal?
A One t in e .
Q That was fo r what period?
A 18 or 20 days.
NR. BALLSRt Mo fu r th e r questions.
___ __ *HK COURTi Step down.
»
H. W. K i t t s - C roat
(Vltnaaa excused.)
857
» ! E, W, WIL30M. ca lled a t a wltnaaa by and
j o n b#hAlf of t h « Unitad T ransporta tion Union, being f i r s t
H duly sworn, t e s t i f ie d as follow s 1
i
7
K DIRECT EXAMINATION
f)
10 BY MR, MOODYi
11 S ta te your naas and address, p lease .
12 A
1
E. w. Wilson, 1428 Lakeview D rive, V irg in ia
13 Beach, V irg in ia •
11 Where are you employed. Nr. Wilson?
l. i A Norfolk and Western Railway C olony .
1(1 Q And when did you go to work fo r the Norfolk
17 and Western?
18 1 A March 1 , 1963.
19 ! <4 Where did you go to work?
201 A In the CT Yard a t Norfolk te rm in a l.
2! (4 And what type work did you apply fo r
22 1 ob ta in a t th a t t in s ?
i
2:i ; A Well, a friend of nine was a conductor
24 I there and he took; as out and to ld as he could ge t as a
2f> Job as brateaan. and I was employed as a brakeaen by tlw
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W. h iito jj — C lrco t
N & V.
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^ How long were you a b r a * « n ?
̂ I ® ti l l an a bnkAMnorwKeaan, avan though I hold
conductor's a a n lo r l t , . x . . . ^ ^ ^ ^
Of Ju ly 1969.
W Hava you woricad on tha Norfolk CT Yard
oootlnuoualy S in . . rour I n t t t s l a a p lo y a n t . i t h t h . h o r f . i*
■ad Waatarn?
A Tat, a i r .
« And h a s . you .o rksd throujhout tha yam
in tha Norfolk araa in th a t aapaalty?
A Yea, a i r , I hava.
* Hava you had tha opportun ity to otoaarva
t h . .o r a th a t ta k a . p l .o . ln th . B a rn ., M tn
A r**’ *l r w« *“ »• Jobs th a t a ra oaUad
h“ P and thl. 1, p i .o ln , ootl ^
a m . coo . . go In to t h l . a r a . to p laaa thaM ay ta , and
X. am th a “oncara, am . . t a l a to than , and th sy a lso
a d rink - c h i n , th a t « . *0 d e n and urn and , . t
d rin k s .
Q Now, would you t a l l ua. I f you w il l , lo o t
of tha d iffa ran o aa . I f any, th a t you know o f, batwaan tha
two yards ln tha work th a t la ca rrlad out th a ra .
A Wall, a Barnay taan has d u tie s th a t ara
to a nan in tha yard* hh has a lready
12 I ^
2 . w. Wilson - D ire c t
859
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t . . t l f l . d t o . ty in g b r .R e ., e l l . b l n g up .n d d o n o a r .
•nd t h in g . . But „u r »orR u n r . v . r i n . w . n « on
- « l n g .q u l p w n t . w. h .v . to b . c a p a b l. o f e t c h i n g up.
g e t t in g UP n o coon o f f c u l p w n t , w w l „ „ n . to to n n i n
* " h our. wo h a r . a a a lg n n n t . th a t wont l a th o P o r t i o n
P«rd. T h . cooduotor on t h l . n . l g n n n t w i n bo
r o .p o n .lb lo f o r M R ln g up o lg h t o r nlno o l M . i f t o . t l o n .
In a t r a in In M o tio n o rd er. and i t .o u n d . Rind o f
» l n l e , but o p n d w a t e r g i r o , you 200 c a r . to a w lto h , and
fo u r tr a c R . to .w lte h than on, and you have to put
e v e ry th in g In ord er and g e t th e r e f r ig e r a t o r e a r s ,
e x p lo s iv e oars in ord er end i t ta k e s knowledge th a t I
d o n 't b e lie v e th e Barney yard men u se . They d o n 't have
th a t typ e o f work up th e re i s what i t amounts t o .
Q What * bout th e working co n d itio n s in s o fa r
“ c le a n lin e s s and t h i . type o f th in g u eonoerned. would
you t e n me whether or not th e re are any s u b s t s n t ls l
d i f f e r e n c e s , and i f eo , what th e y a re in t h is co n n ectio n .
A As f a r aa c le a n lin e s s g o e s , th e Barney m i
have to use g r e .a e to g e t th ese c a r . moving. w iey de
i t w ith a t ie k a and g lo v e e and th in g s l i k e t h i s . And I
im agine th e y do g e t some o f i t on them. But in tu rn , l
d o n 't b e l ie v e th e y are su b je c te d to some o f the d i r t y
c o n d itio n s we e r e . Like i „ the e * p ty yard when we work
o v e r t h e r e , we have to go in between th e se e a rs w ith
1 2 j *
E. w. Wilson - c i r t e t 860
brans stieics and sp ikes to opsn th s b u tt so icnuelclss.
2 The car* ara dropped on a fre e r o l l in to the e^>ty
3 ! yard ' and wh#n th*y h i t dust f l i s a out of the*. we r id si
i j o n top of tha ®a r» ' •«* I f I »■ r id in g on th s hsad snd I
r, ! Can look a t th * »»>d I e*n ju s t bare ly sss ths m n ,
« j b#cau»« ca* 1 dust la sw irlin g and th ings of th is natu re .
_ | Both th s jobs are d i r ty .
■
s ^ Wow, you Mentioned brake s t ic k s and ap ikss.
| Are these both ln s tru aen ts th a t a re used th a t req u ire the
io i PhJ»*o»l carry ing out of a o t lv i ty f
i
m | A a lp ‘ The «ain place th a t a brake
,2 | *tlclc and spike la used la in the re tu rn to the eo^ty yard.
13 j °u r Job is to go in these tra c k s , get th e tra c k of
h | ••SPtiee s o lid , as we c a l l i t . That i s , get a l l the
15 i oouplers and knuckles toge th er.
lh Now, to do th is w ithout a brake s t ic k *rd
it sp ike , an engine would have to sea t and beat back and fo r th
18 | fron approx ins te 1 y 45 a i mites to an hour. What we do is
19 in s e r t a spike in the knuckle of the oar using the edge
f \
20 of th e drawttsad as a lev e r , put the brake s t ic k behind the
21 spike and p u ll forward our body to pop the knuckles open.
22 We do th is to about 50 cars per tra c k in about 35 tra c k s .
23 Then the engine can shove back and couple the oars and
2i aake then a l l so lid with one shove back.
2r’ ^ How about a pinch bar th a t has been
1 2 1 x
B. W. Wilson - Direct 661
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Introduced In evldonoo, I bo lleve. Are you C a l l U r w ith
those ob jec ts?
A I am. And I am lik e the Barney yard. i
d o n 't lik e them too ouch e i th e r . We use them nomtly in
the ampty yard. They are laying around between the tra c k s .
The main reason we would need one is I f drawhesds are
by passed. Now, most of the oars we can get w ith the
brake s t ic k and sp ike . But i f the drawhesds a re by passed
we have to take a pinch bar and move the ea rs apart so th a t
we oan ad ju st the drawhesds and lin e the knuckles up. This
i s r e a l ly about the only place th a t I have ever used one.
They are not an in te g ra l p a r t of our d u tie s a l l over the
yard.
Q la v e you held o ff ic e In Local 550?
* a i r . I have been lo ca l chairman of
550 since 1969# and I was re c e n tly re -e le c te d to th a t
o f f ic e .
Q And what a re the d u tie s , or what i s the
19 j re sp o n s ib il i ty of a lo c a l chairman in a lo ca l of the
United T ransporta tion union?
1 ! A A lo ca l chairman d ea ls mainly w ith the
grievances of in d iv id u a l members fo r the lodge as a whole.
We process these grievances through lo ca l o f f ic e rs of the
c a r r ie r . I f no accord i s reached, we forward the
>r '
g rl« v a ju .a to th . g .n .r .1 o k t l n u i fo r f u r th t r handling.
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But. o f eoormo. t h t . « , » «U o h .T . t h . .p p ro r .x of t h .
lodgo as a whole.
3 And have you attended lodge Meetings
during the la s t f iv e or a la je e rs p r e t t j re g u la r1 /?
A Tee, s i r . That i s one th in g i believe is
the union. I go p re tty re g u la r.
4 And were you p resen t during any Meetings
«h«n • - t t o r e*M ro .M d ln , u , t , p . of of tb ,
ro s te r s of 974 end 550?
A Ybs, s i r . i re n ea te r i t . The da te
wouldn’t be e le a r in ay wind, bu t, of course, I heard the
l a t t e r read in Court the o th e r day, and I snow i t was in
1966.
<4 And what do you r e c a l l regard ing any action
by 550 on th a t M tto r?
A Well, a c tu a lly we too* a vote on the
question , but we d id n 't take any ac tio n because our lo ca l
lodge does not have the a u th o rity to ae t on M tte ra of
th is natu re . These th ings are handled by our general
ohalm en. Now, we can wake recoaaendatlons, but not
binding recoaaendatlons. And, of course, a t a lo ea l
■eetlng th e re n igh t be 25 een p re se n t, and those 25 a n
c a n 't apeak fo r 300 sous th a t we have cuployed on the
yard.
3 ? see . And you do not r e c a l l
s. w. Wilson - tirsct a
663
I •p a c if ic o f f ic ia l ac tio n baing taken while you ware
I p re s id e n t?
A Wo put i t in what you o a l l the round f i l e .
You know, wo c o u ld n 't do anything about i t anyway.
4 what about any merger of the two
j f ra te rn a l lodges. Do you r e c a l l any request coning fron
i
i 97^. Did th a t take place?
I .
A Mo, s i r . Mo request has cons to our
lodge to asrge . ju s t the lodges by thenselvos. I
I
discussed i t q u ite a few t in e s w ith o f f ic e rs and nsnbers of
the o ther lo c a l, but they haven 't second in favor of i t ,
r e a l ly .
3 Mow, Mr. Wilson, are you fa m ilia r w ith the
s e n io r i ty sy sten as an employe of the ra ilro a d ?
A Yes, s i r . I th in k every employe i s
fa m ilia r w ith I t .
Q And would you t e l l ne whether or not the
s e n io r i ty sy s ten e x is ts in the Norfolk area as between
j
th e nsnbers o f, or enployes of the Barney Yard and
enployes on the CT Yard. I s th e re a s e n io r i ty systen
involved th a t sep a ra tes those two from each o ther?
.
A Yes, s i r . To ny knowledge they have
always been separated .
Q And do you oonslder the s e n io r i ty sy sten
to be of iaportanee o r value to the ra ilro a d enployes?
H. w. Wilson - Direct
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K. W. Wilson - Direct 664
4 I have been s i t t i n g In Court In the l a s t
f#w 6sjr» l i s toning to people ta lk s to u t I t , sad I was
try in g to th in k of s d o sc rip tlo o , and I d id . S o a lo rlty
to no is llk o bu ild ing s house. Everyday I go to work
I Put s t r i c k n th a t house. Now, u n t i l I got the house
completed, s lo t o f th in g s , r o s i ly , they eon go wrong.
Bad weather. That i s when I ge t la id o f f , uhleh has
happened to ns befo re , and when you get the house c o l l a t e d
you can look forward to a good job . you can lock forward
to sons kind of s e c u r ity and no one can take i t away fron
you. K it u n t i l you do ge t i t b u i l t , or I f sensene c o m
•long and knocks the house down, you are s ta r t in g a l l over
•g a in , and I t la vary ln p o rtan t to ns and svery nan working
on tha ra ilro a d .
^ 1x1 words, i t takes a long t in s to
bu ild up s a n io r l ty on tha ra i l ro a d i does i t n o t. In sons
in stances?
A lb s , s i r . I t i s a l l ln p o rtan t to ns.
I t la tha only inoentlvo a t t i n t s th a t you have to keop
th is Job. You nay bo o ff a t another job ten sore
d o lla rs a weak, but you d o n 't want to give up e ig h t years
th a t you b u i l t up In th is s e n io r i ty system, because i t i s
Ju s t to your b e n e fit.
Q And would you s ta te whether or not
d o v e ta ilin g of tha two ro s te r s here would bo s breaking
865
o f t h a t s e n io r i t y a y s te a th a t you havs?
A Yaa, s i r , I w ould. And what I t l a , you
put on the s e n io r i t y r o s t e r , and you know you a re go in g
to move up. T h is I s a c o n d itio n th a t you can se e d a l l y ,
I
or y e a r ly , w hatever i t aay be. And I f ju s t one nan i s
put on a s e n io r i t y l i s t ahead o f you, I t ■ lgfr* «san the
d i f f e r e n c e between you w orking a d a y lig h t Job o r a
a id n ig h t jo b , and t h i s i s why i t I s Im portant.
Do you f e e l t h is I s Impor t a n t t o th e wen
on th e Barney yard a ls o th a t no one be a b le to in tru d e
upon t h e ir s e n io r i t y ?
MR. BEIT OHi O b je c tio n .
THE COURTi W e ll, he c a n ’ t speak f o r th e
Barney y a rd . But I a s c o n fid e n t h is answer would
be y e s . I f he were a llow ed to answer i t . So I
w i l l answer i t f o r h ie .
NR. BELT ON i That I s what we were t r y in g
to a v o id , your Honor.
THX COURT: That i s an oth er one o f th o se
have you stopped b e a tin g your w ife q u e s tio n s . Do
you b e l ie v e in Motherhood and th e f l a g . go
ahead.
MR, MOODYI A l l r i g h t , s i r .
A (C on tin u in g) Mr. Moody, I can t e l l ywu
how i t would a f f e c t sons o f th e a n . i t would have good
E. W. Wilson - Direct
1 J f K
866
and bad e f fe c t* .
MR. fiELXONs I move to s t r ik e , Your lo n e r.
I t i s not a question an the f lo o r .
THE COUNT * i t would more sons up on tlw
se n io r i ty l i s t , and sons down. I eon see th a t .
I might be a h e l l of a Judge but I oan work
mathematics.
Ml. BELTON* Your Honor, he was
responding to something and the question w a sn 't
asked.
THE COUNT: I t d o e sn 't make any d iffe re a e e .
He doean•t haws to t e l l ns. i t i s l ik e whether
the c o a l dust is only on the Barnsy yard or the
general yard. You a l l took two days to worry
about th a t .
MR. BELTON* we waive a l l questions on the
windiness of the days. Your Honor.
MR. MOODY* I have no o ther questions,
Judge.
THE COURT* l e t us ask you one question .
I f a aan i s a brakeman and he gets $32.58 a day,
i f he has been a brakeuan fo r f iv e yea rs , dess
he s t i l l get $32.58, or a pay enolunsnt fo r years
of se rv iee?
THB WITME53* sane r a te , Your Honor.
E.W. Wilson - Diltot
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THE COURT i i f ha has baan a breioeaan
15 /a a rs does he get anything acre $32. 58,
or whatever the wage is ?
THE WITNESS: Saae r a ta . The only
ha g a ts is an increase in vacation ‘ M rm n ii.
THE CCXWTi a i l r ig h t , s i r . Cfroaa-
ex asln e .
MR. WORTH Dior OH: Ho questions. Tour
Honor.
CROSS EXANDUfTIOV
BY MR. HALLER:
Q On your Job, It*. Wilson, how often wesltf
you say you use a ca r sever?
A a n y when I a s working in the eap ty yard.
This i s a yard where we re tu rn a c t i o s .
Q And when you work la the eapty yard on
those days, how o ften do you use i t ?
A Only i f the drawheads are by passed, end
you s ig h t find two a traoic out o f 35 tra c k s .
^ Does th a t happen every day?
A No, i t does not.
3 Coes i t happen every week?
— A ___i J W i i say th a t i t happens w ith in a 24 hour
? 1C*,.
W. W ilson - D iro o t
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p srio d . you assn a day, a 24 hour period?
H No, a s h i f t . A day th a t you work?
A A day th a t I work I s ig h t only work th rsa
tra c k s . i a s c e r ta in in o ther trac k s — out of these
th ree track s I w ill find one, yes, s i r .
Q So did you say th e re s ig h t be two o r th ree
out of 35 track s?
4 Mo. What I said was you s ig h t find two
a tra c k , or you s ig h t find th ree a tra c k , or you s ig h t
not fin d any fo r th ree tra c k s . You d o n 't knew u n t i l you
go down th ere and look.
Q So th e re oust be q u ite a few days you
d o n 't have to use a ea r sever a t a l l ?
A Yes, s i r . i f i d o n 't work in the yasd
I sore than l ik e ly would not use one a t a l l .
Si And i f you would work in the yard there
s ig h t be days you wouldn11 use one too ?
A Yes, s i r .
<4 Sow, you s ta te d th a t you have bees
a tten d in g see tin g s of Lodge 550 p re t ty re g u la r ly t m a
nusber of ysarof la th a t co rree t?
A Yai, a i r , I have.
^ You have taken an in te ra c t in the proposals
before th is lodge?
A I have t r ie d to .
w. Wilson - Cross
E. w. v i ls o n - Crons 873
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don’t care what the proposal would ba.
* So you don’t want anyona to gat naar your
s e n io r i ty ro a ta r?
A No, s i r . i t has bean tampered with ona
t la a and we su ffered as a r e s u l t .
Q Let ns read p a r t of th la l a t t e r to you.
I t • ays th a t a t the aee ting a notion was nada, seconded
•nd properly ca rried to tab le the request on a oonferenee
w ith your lodge.
Now, l e t ne s t a te I t ejcaotly.
"••• w ith Norfolk Ledge No. 550 lo ca l
grievance o o an lttee by Lodge 974, fo r the purpose
of b o tto m in g and topping of s e n io r i ty ro s te rs of
yardnen on Norfolk term inal u n t i l the s e n io r i ty
o f th e Norfolk and western and T lrg in ian has been
Is th a t what i t says?
A Ybs, s i r , i t does.
Q How do you understand th a t , " u n t i l th e
s e n io r i ty o f the Norfolk and Western and V irg in ian has
been nsrged."
A The asin th in g I oan t e l l you, there
probably weren’t aany members a t the m setli* .
Q S o you th in k th a t most of th e
w ouldn't be In favor of merging the ro s te ra ?
7 3 2 a,
E.V. W ilson - C ross
A So, s i r . com sen stand to g a la when
you merge, and some nan stand to lo s s , tout u su a lly the
m ajority w ill lo s s .
* I s i t eustoaary fo r the se c re ta ry -
t r s a s u r s r to w rits a l a t t e r to Nr. Lusk s ta t in g th a t a
notion waa aads, seconded and p roperly ca rried ?
A i f there are f i r e nan a t the v o t i n g , they
can d ire c t him to do i t Ju st lUoe they can do the — t
th ing in 974.
*4 without consu lting the r e s t of the naahers
A They can send i t th e re . Whether he takes
ac tio n or not i s aone th ing e ls e .
^ Now, you s ta te d th a t your s e n io r i ty as a
ra ilro a d aan i s worth a g re a t d ea l to you?
A Yes, s i r .
4 And to a l l ra ilro a d a n ?
A Yes, s i r .
* Would you say th a t the value of the
s e n io r ity depends on what i t can toe used fo r?
A Well, s e n io r i ty i s a - i t U a o s a s t l t y ,
and I d o n 't understand what you v a n , what i t can he used
fo r. You assn lik e to taka a p a r t ic u la r Job th a t you
want?
4 What would you th in k s e n io r i ty would be
worth on a sw itch tenders ro s te r?
*75
B.W. itfllfon - C ross
i A We d o n 't have sw itc h t e n d e r 's r o s t e r s
2 anymore.
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:i Q I b e lie v e s e a s aen do.
4 A * * t h a t I know o f . They h are s l i bean
) In corp orated w ith th e t r a in a s n 's l i s t , even though th e y
b s t i l l hold s w itc h ten d er s e n io r i t y .
t k M°l* sw itc h te n d e r s e n lo r l t y f
8 A One nan on N o rfo lk te rm in a l on our r o s t e r .
9 Q What i s th a t w orth to h in t
10 A What i s i t w orth?
11 k To have sw itc h te n d e r s e n io r i t y ?
12 A No one can a m h la o f f th e Job wheim h» i s
13 s e a le r .
14
k Does th a t g iv e h la any r ig h t s t o any oth er
15 | Jobs ?
lb
A No, s i r , not under th e way i t was s a t up
17 b e fo re . Sow Mas r ig h t s by th e o th er Jobs by h is
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s e n io r i t y d a te •
19 I k Mi sw itch te n d e r o r breknann?
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A As sw itch te n d e r and brajeeasn. B u t, o f
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c o u rse , s e n io r i t y d a te as brajosaan.
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Vi Weil* as sw itc h te n d e r , w ith s w itc h te n d e r
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s e n io r i t y , hs 1me a r ig h t to sw itc h te n d e r Jobs?
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A A brair.snan l i s t cou ld not a sve
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o f f th a t Job.
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E. W. Wilson - Cross qjg 1
1 Q How aany sw itch te n d e r 's Jobs are there?
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2 A You mean in the yard?
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3 Q R ight. ii1
4 A Two each s h i f t and two r e l i e f jobs.
f) Q Now, how aany Jobs does your s e n io r i ty 1
H glv« you a r ig h t to . I f i t la s u f f ic ie n t s e n io r i ty , la
7 t« raa of r e la t iv e ta rn s to ev e ry th il* a la s?
H A You naan as a re g u la r asslgnaan t?
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* R ight.
10 A I stand fo r q u ite a number of jobs on Kerf e ls
11 ta r a ln a l , but I an on the e x tra l i s t by oholee.
12 Q ^ th e re are how aany Jobs apprm l a a ts l j
13 jou would work a t one t in e or another?
11 A You assn good Jobs or bad ones?
15 Q Any kind. .
10 I A 1 stand fo r a whole bunch of bad ones end
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a couple of good ooas.
IS j Q More than the a»n with sw itch tender
19 II s e n io r i ty anyway?
20 A No, a i r . This aan has a bra t a i n ‘a
21 ; s e n io r i ty da ta th a t la baok In *53.
22
Q But i t i s the b u m ' s s e n io r i ty th a t
23 | gives him a r ig h t to other Jobs, the sw itch tender
21 se n io rity ?
25 A R ight.
> 7>5>v
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S. w. Wilson - Cross 877
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'< In o ther words, i t seems to a
<ilff*ranc« what icVod of s e n io r i ty you have.
A Wall, au ra . 1 c a n 't work conductor's Job
I hava conductor's s e n io r i ty .
Q I f you have can lo r I t y r ig h ts on bat ta r Job*
th a t is a d if fe re n t wind of s e n io r i ty r ig h t f r os s e n io r i ty
r ig h ts on worse jobs.
TOM COURT 1 1 d o n 't follow you.
A i f you want aa to answer I t , I d o n 't
understand what you are ta lk in g about.
BY m . BALLKRt
W You to ld toe you had s e n io r i ty r ig h ts to
•o«a good jobs and sons bad jobs.
A R ig h t.
^ What I as try in g to ask you i s whether i t
i s a l l the saas to you. Would you Ju s t as seen as haws
s e n io r i ty r ig h ts to a bad job aa to a good job?
A I d o n 't understand. You are m
whether I would ra th e r work a good job or n o t, aa opposed
to s bed jo b | r ig h t . I would ra th e r work s good Job.
4 And i t i s your s e n io r i ty r ig h ts t l t t t give
you th a t opportunity?
A Yes, s i r .
THE COURT 1 But the s e n io r i ty r ig h ts , swan
7 3 0 ^
to a bad Job as ag a in s t uoenp loyaent are
Importantj is th at r ig h t ?
i
THE w itness* la s , a ir . i t la when
mm taka conductor, mm had to vara bad Jobs f a r
two or throw /oars before I «an gat baaa to a good
brokeasn's Job.
^ W ilson • C ross 3^8
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THE COURTt Lot 'a nova along. I d o n 't
believe wa arm in a n / aroa of g roa t ralavanoa in
th is oaao.
BY NR. BALLERt
Q Would you trado /o u r s a n io r l t / aa a yard
conductor fo r a Barnay Yard conductor 'a s e n io r ity ?
A /o r a Barney Yhrd conducto r's s e n io rity ?
R ight. Sane d a ta .
A Som of th e Jobs Z would and aoaa I w ou ldn 't.1
I d o n 't th in k any of them got th e exact aam da ta th a t Z
stan d , 165 on the conductor s e n io r i ty ro s te r . They only
have 36 promoted conductors, as I understand i t . I d o n 't
sea how I could trado with then . I an on the bo ttoa of
the l i s t in the yard , and I would be on the b o tto a of th e i r s .
1
I o o u ld n 't gat anything good out of i t e i th e r way.
Q So you d o n 't th in k you would probably want
to trade i t ?
A Xt wouldn't naka any difference *<**<i» m a y .
S . W Wilton - Croea 879
Of course, are you asking m whloh I would ra th e r have,
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mj s tand ing or th e i r standing?
Q R ight. Wall, 1 an asking you whether
you would ra th a r hare s e n io r i ty r ig h ts la the CT Yard s la sh
j you do, or in the Barney yard share you d o n 't?
r
A I have bean working th e re e ig h t years, sad
I would ra th e r have the CT yard.I
I
la th a t beeause you th ink th i s is a b a tte r
kind of s e n io r i ty r ig h t?
A i t la because I have been working th e re
e ig h t years. That would be the only reason.
Q Suppose you could have s e n io r i ty with
e ig h t years s e n io r i ty date in the Barney yard?
A I d o n 't know what i t would be in the Barney
Ih rd , but I w ill t e l l you they p lay a lo t of sa rd s up th ere
and I lik e to p lay sa rd s . so X would be p re jud iced .
<4 What I an try in g to ask you i s i f you
th a t a l l s e n io r i ty r ig h ts are the sane?
A No, s i r , they a re no t. I would ra th e r he
an engineer. X would trade w ith an engineer in a ail mats
Q So th e re nay be a d iffe ren ce between
d if fe re n t kinds of s e n io r i ty r ig h ts as to deturadae hew
d e s ira b le they would be?
A Sure. There e re s lo t b e t te r Jobs then Z
have got.
880
MR. BILLER * Mo fu r th e r q u estio n s .
THE COURTt A ll r ig h t , s i r . Step d
(Witness excused.)
(R ecess.)
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fT O A. HARPIM, sa ile d as a v ltn ees by and
on behalf of the United T ransporta tion Onion, being f i r s t
duly sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fo llow si
I
DIRECT EXAMXMATIOfer
BY m , MOODY:
Q S ta te your nans and address, p lease .
A Fred A. Hardin, 843 Aldeman Road,
Jack so n v ille , F lo rid a .
vi Hr. Hardin, what i s your p resen t p o s itio n
with the United T ransporta tion Union7
A In te rn a tio n a l v ice -p re s id en t.
Q And i s th is a f u l l t in e p o s itio n or duty?
A Yes, a i r .
<4 P rio r to holding th a t p o s itio n , what did
you do. w ell, l e t so go back fu r th e r than th a t , perhaps,
and ask you were you a t one t in s a ra ilro a d asgiluja
; working on the ra ilro a d ?
“73*1 K
fi.W. Wilson - Cross
F. A. Hardin - d tract 881
A Tea, s i r .
■4 And t a l l me, i f you w il l , where you lived
a t th a t tin e ?
A I was an employe of southern R ailroad and
lived in G reenv ille , South C aro lina , and an
employe of Southern on October 1 , 1940.
4 Now, p r io r to going to work on the
ra ilro a d , what education did you have?
A Well, I , of course, fin ished high school,
and then I contemplated going to co lleg e , but 1 had a
chance to p lay p ro fess io n a l baseb a ll so I decided to
become a baseball p layer. And a f te r e couple of years
they advised ne th a t ay fe e t were g e ttin g too big end I
would never be e n a tio n a l hero , so I decided I would have
to ge t in something e ls e , end 1 went to wonc fo r the
Southern R ailroad.
4 And a t th a t time what type work did you do?
A I was f i r s t employed as a braiceman.
4 That was a t (b reenv llle , South C arolina? i
A Taa, a i r .
4 Did you belong to the United T ransporta tion
Union, or Brotherhood of R ailroad Trainmen union lodge a t
th a t time?
A Yes, s i r . I became a member of BRT Lodge
641 in d re e n v ills .
4 And how long d id you work there as a
A. Hardin - Direct
882
bra iceman?
A I worked th ree years ss s hraiosmsn and was
promoted to conductor October 1 , 1943.
4 Row, did you l a t e r hold o ther o ff le e s in the
lo c a l, or o ff ic e s in the lo ca l of the Brotherhood of
R ailroad Trainmen?
A Yes, s i r . 1 was s v ic e - lo c a l n h a l r in .
then a lo c a l ohAijr"*n > then a v ice-genera l ehairmaa, and
then general chairman, and than a l te rn a te v ice -p re s id en t.
4 And a lte rn a te r ic e p re s id e n t, i s th a t a
p o s itio n w ith the United T ransporta tion Union R ational
O rganisation?
A Yes.
4 As well ss the in te rn a tio n a l?
A Yoa.
4 Then what waa your next p o a ltlo a a f te r b e l ^
a l te rn a te vice p residen t?
A In te rn a tio n a l v ice p re s id en t.
4 I s th a t your p resen t p o sitio n ?
A Yea, a i r .
4 What does th a t involve, and what a reas do
you work in?
A w ell, the d u tie s of an in te rn a tio n a l v ise -
p residen t are to ca rry out assignments of tha p re s id e n t,
1 ^1 ^.
F.A. H ard in - D ire c t 883
f i r s t . P rim arily , however, I a s s l t general committees,
general chairman in n eg o tla tlo n a , agreementa w ith the
varloua ra llro a d a , and a t t e s t i n g to reaolve dlaputea w ith
: the varloua ra llro a d a and publie law boarda, e t ce te ra ,
and in add ition to th a t I peraonally have been involved
I
| w ith *°*t n a tio n a l nego tla tlona in the peat fo u r or f iv e
years.
£} You mentioned th a t you held the p o s itio n of
a l te rn a te v ic e p r e s id e n t . when did you take o ffio e in
th a t poaitlon?
A 1964.
Q And when did you become in te rn a tio n a l
v ic e -p re s ld e n t?
A 1968.
Q Mow, what areas of the country have you
war Iced in as in te rn a tio n a l v ice -p re s id en t, or a l te rn a te
v lo e -p re s id e n t?
A Well, h i s to r ic a l ly we have had v loe-
p resid en ts in the n o rth ea s t, so u th east, and various sec tio n s
country. But in aa much as I have been in
n a tio n a l nego tla tlona my assignments have covered the
e n t i r e United S ta te s and aven some of the ra ilro a d s I hive
worked on, even up in to Canada. But a l l over, a t la a a t th a
eas te rn h a lf of the United S ta te s , and sometimes west.
Q. Mow, d u rin g th e tim e th a t you have been
901
m atter?
A i have to be very c a re fu l. j d o n 't want to
be --
THE COURTs Don't t e l l mm anything th a t
happened a t the conference. Those people a re not
p a r t ie s to th is s u i t .
.
BY NR. MOODYt
<4 were you able to continue your e f fo r ts or
not?
A Upon re c e ip t -- Nr. Room l a t e r wrete Mr. Loan
a l e t t e r asicing th a t we schedule another meeting fo r fu r th e r
considera tion in handling of th i s n a t te r . M>. Lusk
re fe rre d i t to mm, and I ca lled Nr. room and to ld hiw th a t
i t would be f u t i l e fo r us to a tte u p t to handle i t any
fu r th e r , in view of the fa c t th a t I had been advised th a t
ir re sp e c tiv e of what we did they co u ld n 't s e t t l e the
com plaint. I t would be handled by so e i a tto rn ey s , and
they would not have the r ig h t to najes a se ttle m e n t.
<4 And have you had any fu r th e r conference
w ith any re p re sen ta tiv e s of 974, w ith sp e c if ic reference
to th is n a t te r since then?
A No, no conferences a t a l l , s i r .
<4 I would ask you whether or not you and Mr.
Lusk made every e f fo r t you could to work th i s s e t t e r out?
?• A. H ard in - D ira c t
I
90S
A We c e r ta in ly d id . In ay opinion. I th in k
we were successfu l in n ego tia ting a proposed a^ rea—ill th a t
I thought was ex ac tly what the Barney yard employes wanted,
and I was very disappointed th a t they f e l t lik e they needed !
th is other p rov ision in th e re . However, I recognised th e i r
r ig h t to c e r ta in ly ask fo r sonsth ing e ls e . In f a c t , I
expressed my disappointm ent and discouragement to Local
Chairman Rock, and to ld him th a t I c e r ta in ly wished th a t we
had the ways and means to continue i t end reso lve i t , hut la
view of the advice I had received from the Federal
Government th a t i t would be im possible. And Mr. Reek
seemed to be d isappoin ted . In f a c t , he said to me — ha
wrote a l e t t e r th a t he thought a group of employes could )
atop anything th a t they had s ta r te d , but apparen tly they
I
co u ld n 't in th is in stance .
4 Now, in connection with your p o s itio n as an
in te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e r , with re ference to proposing topping
and bottoming in the Norfolk yards, did you a t th a t t i a s
have knowledge o f, or do you now have knowledge o f how th i s
would work and what period of time would be involved in
order fo r the men to gain boom s e n io r i ty on the ro s te r la
the o ther yard?
A w ell, a t the time th a t I was f i r s t involved
In th i s , I , of course, t r ie d to acquaint myself w ith the
working cond itions. And, a t th a t tim e, to the best of_ i
~)m\
F. A. H ardin - D ire c t
903
ray memory, th ere were about 135 Barney la rd ei*>loyes
holding s e n io r i ty only in the Barney Yard and working th ere.
And th e re were, according to the inform ation furnished me,
over 300 employes on the s e n io r i ty ro s te r and wortclms In tHr j
i
C* Tard. And the agreement th a t I arranged fo r , Mr. T fluff If
and I , would have provided th a t the 135 Barney Yard sen
be placed in th e i r s e n io r ity order a t the bottom of the
CT Yard s e n io r ity ro s te r , and the 300-plus, whatever the
f ig u re i s , CT men would be placed on the bottom of the
Barney Yard ro s te r in th e i r s e n io r i ty o rder. T his, an I
sa id before, had been done on many, many ra ilro a d s throughout
the United S ta te s in yard , and in ro ad , and in various o ther
s e n io r i ty ca te g o rie s . And th is would allow a l l of the
Barney Yard man to a t a r t accumulating s e n io r i ty In the
CT Yard ahead of a man on the s t r e e t who h ad n 't been h ired
y e t. And, vloe versa . A CT Yhrd man would s t a r t to
accumulate s e n io r i ty In the Barney Yard.
And In view of the a t t r i t i o n r a te , and,
In c id e n ta lly , I in v estig a ted and I was amazed to find th a t
Norfolk the ra ilro a d a t t r i t i o n r a te or turnover r a te in
Norfolk fa r exoeeds the n a tio n a l average. And i t appears
th s t th i s is because rasny men are re leased from m ilita ry
I
se rv ic e , I guess the Navy, p rim arily , and take a Job with
the ra il ro a d , and the re s ig n a tio n ra te la very high in the
Norfolk a rea . I presume, I was to ld , th s t these people
7 u K.
A. H ardin - D ire c t
? * A Hardin - r ir e o t
returned to the varies* p a rts or u,** " s r th« country they \ i v«d
b*rop* » • « In the eerv loe.
AM another th ing th a t apparen tly has .o e .
connection la when th<» Bkan«n the ah lpyard . a re .o rk ln g they p«y „mry
lu c ra tiv e ra te s of nav
W ' and ra ilro a d sen re sig n and go to
war* fo r the shipyards and whatever.
Howaver, my f ig u re . , based on the
people on the e e n lo r lty ro e te r . Indicated th a t the
turnover re te here wee .bou t 13 per cen t.
^ Annually?
A Annually. And the n a tio n .! average. « t,l.h
1 an Involved r ig h t now In , the n a tio n a l average « . e g r^ g
to by the c a r r ie r re p re sen ta tiv e and the union, and tha
Federal Oovemnent, Is between 5 p v e .n t end 10 per eent
w ith a good f ig u re of 7.5 per eent probably being c o m e t .
So hearing tha testim ony th a t I haard a
l i t t l a while ago th a t there would be 1 :l or 102 , I d id n 't
I t *"r. u err ' v - . . . . . , . ^ —
-V. - - C - I i c . . . > 4 * 9 , * * 4 + 1* *
L e a n e r 1 * 3 . I t a ea .y to bed v . pu t In t l a ,
EKT on the proposed da te of E .o .eber 1, 1963, t h m nen
would have already noved up 101 n o tc h .., ,o to a p e . . , ln
the CT yard. And I an sure th a t they have enployed .
goodly nunber of people In the y ^ . So
o o n v .re .ly , the CT people vould hey . eoved up on the
s e n io r i ty ro s te r in the Barney yard.
F • lU n tiit r tre v i,
»J«. «hat n - r « | would , d .T e taVUn* * f.
^ r 5 “ M i* - * " ■ ro u r acquaintance . i , h * ,
W a , W a t e f f e c t would a d o v e t a i l in g have on the wan on
the low er end o f th e a e n lo r l t y r o a te r e r
* W e ll, I c a n 't c o v re h e n d a d o v e t a i l in g
w ith o u t g r e a t eo n fu a lo n . d l . p a i r , d l . e n o h . n t . n t w ith the
a y a te a , and e v e ry th in g e la e , h e c .u a . the p eo p le «n0 „ „
g iv e n a e n lo r l t y r i g h t . , whether I t be In the a n r d or
p eo p le over In the B « -n .y ya rd , th e y e x e r t ! , , t h e .
r i g h t . , and a u r e ly t h e , would, each nan m tu rn underneath
h la s e n io r ity - w is e would t a x . a l e . a . r a t t r a c t i v e jo b . ywu
would have to s te p down, and th e . t a p down p ro eeea , of
oo u rae, the and r e s u lt i f so nany p eople a re f u r l o u g h , and
th e y would go h o . w ith no co n d en satio n , and no gu aran tee
w hatsoever o th er than r a i lr o a d re tire m e n t f o r th e
p re s c r ib e d number o f d ay*.
* I^et me aaic you t h ia , H r. E ard ln . poea ta#
J tnm f t n u y Jajm men nave vs iue In yeur
o b e e rve tlo n and .aqu a In t w e e w ith t h is ilorfoU c a l t u a t lo n t j
1 W all, the a e n lo r lt y o f the Barney m an i
to the B a rm y yard anployea c e r t a i n l y la «oat v a lu a b le to
t h e . because I t Is th e w ay, and .a n . t h . t t h e , s e le c t th e
J o b o f t h e i r c h o i c e .
x And would th ia a e n lo r l t y be a f fe c t e d i f a
d o v e t a i l in g took p la c e in the Barney y a r d ?
1 <1 ?
*'5
P. A. Hardin - Direct
A I f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y , t h e d o v e t a i l i n g
t f t l n g U u . t h a s b e e n o c n t l o n e d t o a . - M n e v e r M n t l n t o
I t . I t . . . h a w d i a o u ^ i n t h e a n t I n c a t h a t l
b e c a u s e I e x p l a i n e d t o t h a a t h a t t h a t c o u l d n ' t b. under our
c o n s t i t u t i o n . I n e v e r h e a r d o f a n y auch t h i n g . B u t I f
t h e y p l a n n e d o n d o v e t a i l i n g t h e C T Y a r d I t would h a v e g n a t
e r r e o t o n t h e C T Y a r d , a n d I f t h e d o v e t a i l i n g w a s t o b e
■ M e i n t h e B a r n e y y a r d , u w o u l d h a v e t h . s a a e e f f e c t
t h e r e , c e r t a i n l y .
^ W h a t e f f e c t w o u l d i t b e , g o o d o r b a d ?
A W e l l , i t w o u l d c e r t a i n l y b e - - i t w o u l d b e
d i a a a t e r o u s t o s o m e , b u t i t w o u l d c a u s e s o m e p e o p l e t o b e
t h r o w n e n t i r e l y o u t o f w o r k a a s o m e b o d y a l o e t e s t i f i e d .
S o m e m a n w i t h a g r e a t d e a l o f s e n i o r i t y , i t m i g h t h e l p h i m ,
M R . B E U T O N i O b j e c t i o n , T o u r H o n o r .
T H E C O U R T : N o m a t t e r w h a t s o m e b o d y e l s e
t e s t i f i e d , y o u a a a n a x p e r t c a n t e s t i f y a b o u t t h e
r f f e e n r f .
t h e W I T N E S S : T b s , a i r . I
A ( C o n t i n u i n g ) C e r t a i n l y p l a c i n g o n e m a n
a h e a d o f a n o t h e r o n t h e s e n i o r i t y r o s t e r l i m i t s h l a J o b j
p o t e n t i a l . i t l i m i t s h i s p o t e n t i a l t o e a r n m o r e m o n e y t o
t a k e a J o b o f h l a c h o i c e . i t m a y m a k e o v e r t i m e o r h a v e '
a r b l t r a r l e s o r w h a t n o t t h a t o t h e r J o b s d o n ' t h a v e .
i
A n d t h e n t h e r a i l r o a d i n d u s t r y , w e a r e
907?. A. Hardin - Direct
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unique in the fa c t we d o n 't have any longevity pay such aa
y
government employes, ana so fo r th . A man works t h i r t y
years d o esn 't receive a n iok le ex tra fo r h ia long years of
s e rv ic e .
m What e f f e c t , in your opinion, would i t have
on the morale of the men?
A Well, I t would c e r ta in ly have a g rea t e f fe c t
on the morale of the men, because s e n io r i ty i s a valuable
p roperty r ig h t . i t is about the only th ing th a t oftentim es
Keeps a man from q u ittin g a ra ilro a d Job. Before he q u its
a ra ilro a d job, lik e he might in a s to re or eo tton m ill , ha
th inks about th is s e n io r i ty and how he has worked up to a I
b e tte r Job s e le c tio n . And In f a c t . In the business, I
one of the g rea t values of s e n io r i ty , i f you ever saw a
ra ilro a d man go in the fu rn itu re s to re in a ra ilro a d town
!
and seek c re d i t , the f i r s t th ing the c re d it manager would
ask him when he to ld h ia he worked on the ra ilro a d , would be
how much s e n io r i ty do you have.
W What about the e f fe c t of suoh a proposal on
work h a b its . Do you th ink I t would a f fe c t the work h a b its
of the man ?
A i t would c e r ta in ly a f fe c t work h ab its
because ra ilro a d aen are lik e a l l o th e rs . They may share
a r id e to work with a neighbor who Is on the same crew, and
they have a o o a p a tib il l ty w ith one or the o th e r, and m j
F. A . Hardin - Direct 906
2 !
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o iI
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p re fe r to work with a man and may p re fe r -- moat ra ilro a d
man p re fe r to work d ay lig h t. Most of the ra ilro a d i n
p re fe r to be o ff on Sunday ao they ean go to church and
w hat-not. a» t th a t la the r e a l , one of the r e a l values
of s e n io r i ty and s e n io r i ty r ig h ts . Most ra ilro a d m o
ob liga te them selves. They buy the type home they th ink
they can pay fo r In accordance w ith th e i r s e n io r i ty , and
what they can expect to earn . And they liv e In a
neighborhood th a t Is In accordance w ith th e i r s e n io r i ty .
T heir whole l i f e is entwined w ith s e n io r ity .
^ Let me astc you whether or not the
s e n io r i ty system is Important to the in te rn a tio n a l union
i t s e l f . Does i t have any laportanee to the unlca and I t s
membership?
a i t hss a g rea t dea l of laportanee to the
union. A ctually the union i s nothing more then a
c o lle c tiv e group of ind iv idual members, and the
ind iv idua l members have to have a --
A Doee i t have any e f fe c t on the un ion 's
a b i l i ty to con tro l i t s membership?
A A bsolutely. The funetlon of the lo ca l
changed d r a s t ic a l ly in the la s t 35 years. The is su e rs new,
the ra ilro a d em ployes,like employes, 1 presume, in a l l o ther
in d u s tr ie s , are b e t te r educated. They have had a f a r b e t te r
chiidPood, and they are aware of the value of an agreement.
n 5 0 x
^ • HardIn - D irec t
909
in
14
IS
If*
2U
(> i
*«l . . wa a p ..* ar u on th, M llroM > ao st ^ ^
* " 1*Wy* r ‘ « > • * • on
” r y f , e t « “ » « *“ « th . . . m o r n , . , . t n and th. rM t
that th . r w or i « i n , th . . . m o r n , n . bout th» onlj,
” *POn y°“ c“ hold » v .r t b . t r h .U> M M n u . .
s L*t a . . . . t r I o .n u n d .ra t.n d what you
*>«. ,ou hav. oartaih r u la . and r .« u U » lo n . unda, th .
Labor Act th at th . ■ •■ b.r.hlp or th . union 1 .
» w tr« i to . 0̂ ,1 , w ith , 1 . that oorract r
A !•* , a i r .
* And t h U ' fo r •* * * ! • , would p ro h ib it a
w ildcat a tr lk o j would i t not?
A Abaolutely.
̂ And i f a w ildcat atrlica la about the take
p n . . , uoutd ,ou . f t . whathar or not th . w o Intaruationa!
1,111 *t t *'*pt to I n t a r o f . to .T old ■ w ild cat a tr lu a t
* C a r t . i n t , th . OTO, a n , or th . tabo r unlom
In t h . ra ilro a d tn d u . t r , would naJta n m r , . r r o r t to
d l.c o u ra * . or p ro h ib it .n U 1 .M 1 a trlica , am wa hav. . . . »
son . ao ra r a . to -- wa hay. a p r o » l» ion In our
c o n s titu tio n th a t th o a . who tn m . M1 >nd
atrlicaa w ill be expelled froo the union.
vi What part doea the a e n io rity ays te a p lay
m your a b i l i t y to d la c lp lin e the - n t o abide by the law ,
A I f a «an know, that he la going to loae hla
IS I lx
1
F. A. Hardin - r ir e o t 910
i
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h
,s
!)
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1 1
1.')
Hi
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L’O
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Job, and he Knows th a t the ra ilro a d w ill need him badly
iAonday, or a Lx month* from now, and he can come back without
any b e tte r Job or loaa, you w ouldn't have any way of
curbing him, ao to apeatc. But by the fa c t th a t I f ha la
dism issed and loaea a e n lo r lty , even I f he comes back a year
from now he la a t the bottom of the totem pole and haa to
go through thoee years of hardahip to get a d es irab le job
again la a very valuable to o l , both fo r the ra ilro a d and fo r
the union.
Q R igh t. And I t la Important In labor
re la tio n s between management and labor; la th a t eo rrec t?
A A bsolutely.
* One or two other questions. You have
I
here two a e n lo r lty d l s t r lo t s In Norfolk. Is I t unusual to
have two s e n io r ity d l s t r l o t s , two or more In a s in g le c ity ?
A Nothing unusual about i t . Host term inal
ra ilro a d c l t i e a , c i t i e s or towns with ra ilro a d term inals,
have two or more se n io r ity d i s t r i c t s In the same town or
c i ty .
■H On the question of the tra in in g necessary
to take over a p o s itio n such as a brakeaan on the ra ilro a d ,
from your experience throughout the country, what would be
the average period of time required fo r a brakeaan to serve
before he would fu lly know the d u tie s of th a t Job?
A The tra in in g period v a rie s . Some
i
' ) 7 >! J ** v
A. Hardin - D irect 911
, I ra ilro a d s requ ire a f i f te e n day tra in in g pariod fo r new
employes. Ana the ra ilro ad s* of course, mate* th is
tra in in g pariod aa few days aa poaaibla baeauaa thay ara
paying a nonproductlva nan. Tha ra ilro ad * hava to pay
tra ln a a a , and the ra ilro a d * Know f u l l wall whan tha
tra in** beeoaes an employe, hi* f r a ta rn a l b ro thers and
fallow workers, thay w ill h*lp h i* do th* worn by doing i t
8 fojp « ^ 1 1 •<>■* day ha i s abla to carry hi* own weight
«nd do a good job .
* Whan th is tra in in g pariod is over w ith,
a f t« r th a t , do you have any a a tln a ta of how long bafora a
12 | ■** b^onaa fu l ly acqualnt*d with tha d u tla s on tha yard
i' such aa tha uorfolic yard, CT Yard?
14 1 A I aa not an expert in tha Norfolx yard ,
h r . Moody, but in most ra ilro a d term inals i t would
o a r ta in ly depend -
NR. BELTON* Objection, Your Honor. I t is
not responsive to tha question .
THE COURT* L e t'a leave th a t .
MR. MOODY* I w ill withdraw tha question .
21 I
BY MR. MOODY*
Vi With reference to tha question as to why
a Section VI no tice was not served in connection w ith th is
problem, would you s ta te under your c o n s titu tio n why a
7 j *>
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912
Saotion VI n o t l u »«• not served in th is a a t t a r of try in g
to s a t t l a th is a a t ta r between the two lo ca ls?
A The a a t ta r th a t I was assigns* to handla wa
an a tta n p t to gat tha aa rn a / Yard paopla b a t ta r job
opportunity and p ro te c tio n . At no t ta a while I was
handling i t was d o v e ta ilin g a a n io r i t / ro a ta ra ever
discussed o thar than aa/bs a casual mention, but i t was
navar swan eonprehended or drained of b / a s , and
a c co rd in g ly aa I s ta te d before. Nr. Lusk and I did not
serve a Section VI no tice fo r tha topping and bottoming
because we f a i t wa could in fluence tha c a r r ie r s t c give i t
to us w ithout the due process of tha law, so to spaas.
The handling under a Section VI Railway
Labor Act c e r t a i a l / involves a d d itio n a l t in e and i + h
d e ls / .
<4 Maw, you touched on th i s , but I want to sea
i f wa can c la r i f y i t as f a r as the uarger of th e two
f r a te rn a l o rgan isa tions in Norfolk. To /o u r knowledge,
has th e re bean a p e t i t io n by 974 o r WO fo r a uarger of
th a two lo ca l lodges?
A To ■y knowledge th ere has been no a t t e s t
uade to serge tha two lo c a ls . I t i s c le a r ly provided fo r
in tha e ana t l tu t ion how i t can be dene. In f a s t , I
volunteered to have i t dons before a t a o e r ta in po in t in the
handling of th is d isp u te . That question cans up 1
■>5 if* .
F.A. H ard in - D tra c t
P. A Hardin - D irect 913
volunteered to a s s is t in g e ttin g I t done immediately.
*4 Is i t unusual to have blacks and whites
in the same lo c a l. is there anything unusual about havlr^
membership In the lo c a l, black and white?
|
A Most of our lo ca ls are blaok and w hite.
W R ight. And I f you have black and w hite,
i s there any such th ing as providing in a s in g le lo ca l fo r
ind iv id u a l re p rssen ta tlo n of the black members and
Ind iv idual rep resen ta tio n of the white members in th a t
lo ca l?
A A bsolutely n o t. That woulc be
perpetuating seg rega tion , and we are try in g to do away with
any segregation and have harmony in In te g ra tio n .
MR. MOODYt A ll r ig h t , a i r . That is a l l
we have.
THE COURTi Cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY m . WORTHINGTON:
* Mr. Hardin, w ith reference to your
p a r tic ip a tio n in the nego tia tions about the proposal to
abo lish the separa tion between the Barney Yard s e n io r ity
d i s t r i c t and the CT Yard s e n io r ity d i s t r i c t in Norfolk,
you have mentioned c e r ta in sp e c if ic dates when o e rta ln
7
r. A. Hardin - cro ss
i j th ing* happens in those n eg o tia tio n * , have you not? j
A S i r , you w ill have to rephraa# the
Question because you may be leading me a s tra y . i doB, t
i know anything about abo lish ing any s e n io r i ty ara
ta lk in g about the topping and bottoming of the s e n io r ity
ro s te rs T
w Well, i f they were topped and bottomed,
8 | th* • • P o t i o n of the two d i s t r i c t s would be done away with? I
' A Eventually but not fo r a good many years.
j ^ ^ ** only In th a t sense I am ta lk in g about.
ii You can give me a word to use then . Let me ta lk about
| *** bottoming or otherw ise merging. You said
> | c e r ta in th ings happened on o e r ta ln d a tes in th a t con n ection
I
11 j ** fa r W* "«re concerned, d id you not?
1,1 i A Yes, s i r .
Q Do you have a memorandum of your time tab le
1 ‘ i on these various th ings?
18 i A Not with a s , no, s i r .
! i
Q As you t e s t i f i e d , were you te s t i fy in g to
these dates from memory, or did you have soamthlng in
w ritin g to r e fe r to?
A I was te s t i fy in g from my personal notes as
to the dates I met with the e ^ lo y e s .
l\ i
Q R ight. Now, do you have those notes
bef ore you as you a i t there in the w itness eh a lr?
1 'A
914
915P. A. Hal'd In - Cross
..... "* —......- • • .......... 4 . . .. ............ . _ _
A Yes, s i r . II
* Could you give us th s exact date of the
I
meeting th a t you had In Columbia w ith Mr. Rock, and tie.
Peanort and Mr. Haynes and w ith the p resid en t of the UTUf
A No, s i r , I cannot. i
* Could you give us the month?
A August, 1968.
Q Now then, Is th a t the f i r s t date th a t you
had anything to do w ith th is n a tte r?
A Yes, s i r .
^ 1 believe th a t you said th a t on a c e r ta in
date In October, which was October 23rd, 1968, th a t you and i
Mr. Lusic cane to Norfolk and met with Mr. Hock, and Mr.
|
Peanort, and Mr. Haynes, and a lso Mr. Medowan and Mr. K itts
o f 55^* Is t h a t t h e d a t e , and a r e t h o s e t h e people you
M t with?
A Yes.
«i Now, a t th a t t 1m , I believe you sa id on
the 23rd of October th a t you were encouraged th a t an
I
agreement might be able to be worked out th a t would
accomplish a topping and bottoming of these two ro s te r s )
I
is th a t r ig h t?
A I b e l i e v e I s t a t e d , and I aaant t o s t a t e ,
th a t I was e n c o u r a g e d t h a t a t o p p i n g a n d b o t t o m i n g would
r e s o l v e t h is c o m p l a i n t .
I S U
P. A. Hardin - Cross 916
i
i-]
1 ! Q How then, i t was a f te r October 33rd, 1968
j
2 j a r t# r you had been In Nor folic you went to see Mr. Luna who
̂ la , was then , and say a t 111 be, the p residen t of the
, In te rn a tio n a l Unlonj is th a t r ig h t?
A Ho, a i r , I did not. 1 wrote h i* - I gave
h i* * w ritten re p o r t . I d id n 't v i s i t him.
4 Where did you maice th a t re p o rt from?
■s A I d ic ta te d i t . I d o n 't know -- through
it the U. 3. s a i l .
10 -i Did you know the date on which you made
n th a t rep o rt to h is?
j A No, s i r , not offhand.
'
is | 4 Well, i t was •ometiae a f te r October 23rdj
11 : was i t not ?
1 A The rep o rt of the see t in g in Norfolk with
the people, and c e r ta in ly the re p o rt to the p residen t would
have to be a f te r the sea tin g fo r m to sake the re p o r t .
Q Did he not respond to you to go ahead and
i
i » j t r y to work i t out?
A Yea, a i r .
Q Can you find th e d a tes of your re p o rt to
h is and h ia response to you?
A No, s i r . I d o n 't have the sp ec if io d a te ,
but i t was - - I a s u su a lly very prompt, so i t would be
-> 1 w ithin a very few days of the October 23rd sea tin g in
I 7 C %
4 ~ f • A. H ardin - C ross 917
i i
10 I
11 !
j
j
11
iii:>
Mr '
I
17!
1*
i
19 1
21
H orfola, i presuae.
I
i Q B it i t would be sonatina a r ta r October 23rd?
A Yes.
* So i t was a f te r you got the rasponsa f ro a
Mr. Luna th a t you began to t a l a to tha paopla of tha
Norfolk and Western; i s th a t r ig h t?
A Wall, Bayba no t. yea, s i r . l a an o f f ic ia l
way i t was a f te r th a t . i aay have ~ you see , I was in
Norfolk over a t tha Norfolk and Weatem n eg o tia tin g a
■ •rger agraaaant and handling hundreds of o th er a a t te r s ,
dosans of o ther n a t te r s , and I aay hare asntionad to than
about tha p o s s ib i l i ty before October 23rd . I d o n 't re n t
th a t , s i r . I had sev e ra l conversation* on tha s t r e e t with
Mr. Parsons, Mr. Martin a t luneh, and what-not.
Q Wall, did you eoae fro a Norfolk than and go
back up to Roanoke?
A i d o n 't know. i nay have stopped by
Washington, s i r .
^ w all, you would have to be in Roanoke to
Nr. Martin and Mr. Parsons an the s tre e t} w ouldn't
you?
A Tee, *nd I a lso saw them in Washington.
Q w ell, 1 hand you what has been narked as
Norfolk and Western E xhibit No. 20 and ask you to read the
handw ritten n o ta tio n there on the aecond page of th a t
?S7.*
. 1
F.
1 e x h ib it .
2 1 A Yes.
:5 ' Q Yea,
1 A "Nat
F. A. Hardin - Croat 918
!) ,
10
12 I
IX
l ! ) i
20 ;
i
21
II I
and 14, 1968. They took ooples of attaehad to
N. F. K. term inal and are to eon tae t ua i f and
when the two lodges a t N. F. K. . . . "
I c a n 't read the la s t word, a i r .
Q I f I suggest to you th a t i t Mans "agree"
would th a t be i t ?
A Agree sounds reasonab le. I t i s signed
M. M 11-14 68."
Q What does th a t memorandum seen to you la
in te rp re tin g i t ?
A i t scans th a t -- I would presses he sasna
th a t ft*. Hardin and Mr. Lusk todc two oopies of th i s attaehad 1
i
document to Norfolk a f te r Novesfeer 13 and November 14.
|
Q And what was the doeuawnt th a t t h i s r e fe rs
to , in your in te rp re ta tio n of i t ?
!
A I t i s a proposed memorandum agree sen t to
becoae e ffe o tiv e December 1 topping and bottom ing the
s e n io r i ty ro s te rs of the Barney Yard and the CT Yard.
Q Does th is a lso suggest to you. Nr. Hardin,
th a t you and Nr. Lusk s e t w ith the Norfolk and H esters people
on November 13 end November 14, 1968?
7 (p 0 ^
P. A. Hardin - Cross 919
A i t c e r ta in ly does.
* do you have any re c o lle c tio n of any
i _ _ _ 4
preolae date on which you had any meeting with the Norfolk
w#***rn people on th is sub jec t between the time th a t
you l e f t Norfolk on October 23rd and communicated with
I* . Luna and got a response, and the date of November 13
«hieh th is memorandum ind loatee was the m e e tly ?
A R estate th a t , p lease .
^ You have got a period of tim e, Nr. Hardin,
*>*ta***n October 23rd, 1963 th a t you have fixed by
i memorandum, and we have another date of November 13 which
*• have fixed by memorandum. Do you ire member any date on
which you had any formal meeting with the Norfolk and
Western people on th is su b jec t between those two d a te s ,
October 23rd and November 13?
i
A S p ec ific d a tes ?
4 Yes.
A No, s i r . S ir , I meant to t e s t i f y , and I
th ink I did very c le a r ly , th a t between October 23rd and
November 13 and 14, we talked to the c a r r ie r s o ff ic e
and worked up th is proposed agreement, and I thought I
made i t c le a r th a t I mailed a copy to Norfolk on November
14 and went to Norfolk on November 15 . i s th a t what I
sa id . Is th a t what you understood th a t I said?
TH4 COURT 1 That i s what you sa id .
l d ^
P. A. Hardin - Cross 920.. —l .. —
, I BY « . WORTH m ar ON:
2 H Specifying what I understood, I was try in g
to get the d a tes .
, A i thought i t e s t i f i e d th a t we net w ith the
c a r r ie r and taiiced to the® sev e ra l t in e s , but I d id n 't
nave any sp e c if ic da tes as to when we s a t down.
But Exhibit 20 which I show you s p e c if ic a l ly
x f lx # * two days th a t you spent on th i s , November 13 and
t* November 14. You d o n 't d ispu te those dates?
in A No, no.
n H Eld ®P«nd more than two days on i t ?
- ! A I would say, yea. i an sure th a t we d id .
|
m ! Q How many more days?
11 A i would have no idea because, as I sa id ,
I was handling various o ther th in g s , and the f i r s t time or
ib two th a t I ta lked to c a r r ie r o f f ic e rs they were re lu c ta n t
i, i to ta lk about anything, and then during th is process I know
i' we talked to then before because one of the com plaints d e a lt
i;( with assignments. And I asked the c a r r ie r o ff ic e rs i f
2u they wouldn't agree to put a c e r ta in assignment procedure
21 . back lik e the Barney Yard people wanted i t . And they to ld
me no, th a t they wouldn't make up th e i r minds wheth«* they
-;i j w«*»ted i t or d id n 't want I t , and they were not going to
2i change th a t . Apparently we d id n 't meet with them.
4 On the subject of assignments, had not ths
P. A. H ard in - Cross 921
Barney Yard people asked fo r reg u la r assignments p r io r to
I November 196b?
A According to inform ation furnished me, yes.
k And had not the c a r r ie r granted i t ?
A Apparently so , s i r .
Vt Was not the request then in November 1968
th a t th is p rev iously granted assignment be resigned and the
old system resto red ?
A The way you explained i t to am -- not you,
but the way the c a r r ie r o f f ic e rs . Nr. Lusk explained i t to
me, th a t would be the net r e s u l t .
Tid the c a r r ie r not then l a t e r spree to
I
re s to re the old system and do away w ith the assignment?
|
A I t ru th fu l ly do not know, s i r .
1 Co you remember d iscu ss lr~ I t , but you
d o n 't know the u ltim ate r e s u l t o f those d iscussions?
A That is r ig h t , s i r . As 1 s ta ted a f te r
sometime in December, I have given th is no fu rth e r
| handling.
Q Now, 1 believe you te s t i f i e d a lso th a t In
your n eg o tia tio n s about the cosing together of the Barney
YSrd and the CT Yard ro s te r s , th a t th ere was no msntlon
of d o v e ta ilin g ; i s th a t co rrec t?
A No mention of d o v e ta ilin g between the Barney
Yard lodge o ff io e rs , 550 o f f ic e r s , and Nbr. Lusk and I .
~ n 3 ^
F.A. H ardin - Crocs 9*2
:{
t
(i
H
f)
10
^ Y Just want to know i f there was ever any
Mention of I t by anybody?
A I believe I s ta te d , to the best of ny
aenory, we had no con stru c tiv e eonaunlcatlon in th a t regard .
I t Is e n t i r e ly p ossib le and any be probable B rother Rock or
Peanort or Haynes sa id , L e t 's ta lk about d o v e ta il in g ." I t
any have been, but i f they would I would have ln n d la te ly
discouraged i t as being im p o s s ib le . so accordingly I do
not th in k th a t we gave i t any considera tion or even ta lked
about I t .
11 j Q How about from the c a r r ie r . Was any
12 | sugges tio n of d o v e ta ilin g from the o a r r le r made?
I
i! i A Yes, s i r . There was a suggestion about
I
u d o v e ta ilin g aade over Mr. N anette 's s ig n a tu re , I
r> understand, to Mr. Lusk.
I
<4 And th a t was Ju st before the conferences you I
had about the topping and bottoming on the 13th of November
and 14th of November, 1963) w asn 't i t ?
A I d o n 't know. I d o n 't have a copy of th a t
l e t t e r and w asn 't aware a c tu a lly of the l e t t e r u n t i l la s t
n ig h t. 3o I r e a l ly - - I was aware of the fa c t th a t soae
d ia logue, ooeannloatlon or something, had taken place
because I asked Mr. Parsons about i t m yself, and I a lso
.
asked Mr. Walker to fu rn ish as a copy of anything th a t the
o a r r le r had proposed.
F . A. H ard in - C roat 934
3 Did you p a r t ic ip a te , Mr. H ardin, in the
n eg o tia tio n s w ith N a w leading to the January 1, 1970
con trac t?
A Mo, s i r . x th in k th is la a re v is io n of
l
the p resen t agreesent w ith a new cover th a t brought i t
up to d a te . But I was not involved in th a t , a i r .
<4 Mow, Nr. H ardin, I th in k you a lso t e s t i f i e d
th a t about two conditions or ad d itio n s to the proposed
topping and bottoming of the merger th a t Nr. Hook
i
discussed w ith you. Do you r e c a l l your testim ony along
j th a t lin e?
A lh a , a i r .
Q Mow, what, i f anything, did you do about
try in g to get these conditions accepted by 330, e r N I V
a f te r they were nade to you by Nr. Hock?
A When Nr. Hook and X discussed then on the
telephone about November 23, X explained to Nr. Hook my
personal opinion as to tha Im p o ss ib ility of adding those
p rovisions w ithout f u l l general eonn&ttee se tio n . And
I asked Nr. Roek to continue to ta lk to h is psopls and
exp lain to than , t o l l them what X had explained to him,
in the hopes th a t they would modify, or we would none
to a masting of the minds.
According to what Nr. Rook to ld as on the
phone, the agreement of topping and bottoming com pletely
F. A. Hardin - Cross 935
s a t i s f ie d them, but a f te r he ca rried i t to the members
they wanted these o ther two p rov is io n s, and I even
suggested to Hr. Rook; a guarantee fo r any days pay they
lo s t because the sh ip d id n 't come in . That was r e a l ly the
answer to I t . And th a t would have to be done through the
serv ice of a Section VI no tice and n eg o tia tio n s . To
d iscu ss th a t approach — maybe we could do i t th a t way.
s p e c if ic a l ly I did not go back to Lodge 550 o r anybody
e ls e , beoause sh o r tly th e re a f te r I was advised th a t any
A p e ta in t we made would have nothing whatsoever to do with
the com plaint, and i t would be f u t i l e on our p a r t to t r y
to reso lve i t because another group had taken i t over, sad
they would decide what was b est fo r the people.
thinkc you may have t e s t i f i e d about I t a lready . But you
were try in g -- I th in k you t e s t i f i e d , to get th e concern of
in 1968 did you conclude th a t you were not going to be ab—
to resolve the m atter without the n ecess ity , i f need be,
of a Section VI no tice?
Ait I did n o t, in answer to your question
Let me c la r i f y t h i s , Mr. H srdln. I
Mr. Rock and 974 worked out w ithout the n ec ess ity of f i l i n g j
a Section VT n o tice j i s th a t co rrec t?
A Tbs, s i r , the o r ig in a l.
Now, a t what po in t a f te r these determ lnat
A I abandoned hope when the EEOC notified
7 a a
F. A. Hardin - Cross
“ **“ * "* OOUl<Sn,t ind th a t any agraanant
th a t « w a c h l wouldn ' t r . . o l y . the d lap u ta , and the
H a rr ie r 'a propowd .g r .e w .n t . . . contingent upon .e t tU n g
t h . co«p l« ln t. Th. c a r r ie r c « - ta l„ l7 « .„*« , to m u f y
•ny complaint any group or p .o p l . Bight hay. a g .in a t u ,
3o I t . . . »y opinion th a t i t m f u t i l e to p u n u . I t any
fu r th e r In yl«w Of the ESOC t .U ln g a . th a t »e d id n 't
hav . the r ig h t to a . t t l . i t , and anything w. d id w ouldn't
a . t t l . i t , th a t t h a , had ta k .n i t o v .r and they would have
to s s t t l s i t .
Q 1 th ljlk you said th is l e t t a r had bean
brought to your a t te n tio n . This la 31-9?
A Yes.
< Now, I thime you have a lready t e s t IT le d ,
h r. H ardin, th a t you did have knowledge of th is l e t t e r .
I th ink i t was given to you by W . Luak; la th a t oo rree t?
A I had knowledge of the con ten ts . I
t r u th f u l ly d id n 't know i t was in tha fo r* of a l e t t e r , hut
I d o n 't doubt i t whatsoever.
4 Now, in your d lseusslon with aeabers of
974, did you avar t e l l any of then about tha f a c t th a t
you had knowledge o f such a l a t t a r ?
A No, a i r .
# BELT ON t No fu r th e r (juestlons.
THE COURTt A ll r ig h t . Anything fu r th e r .
11,1
9^2
blading?
NR. HAYNES: Via, s i r .
NABR3CB f . HAYNES. ca llad aa a w itness by
and on behalf of tha p l a i n t i f f , haying baan p rev lo \» ly
duly sworn. t e s t I f la d aa follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY NR. BALLSR:
Q Whan ware you h ired aa a Barney la rd
brakeaan. Nr. Haynaa?
A I was h ired June 27, 1961.
Are you f a n i i i a r w ith tha fa c to rs th a t go
in to considera tion in tha pronotion of Barney Yard
brskaasn to tha Barney la rd conductor?
A Yea. I an.
* Would you vary b r ie f ly a ta ta sh a t those
fa c to rs a re .
A I th in * tha co st deciding fa c to r would be
tha deaand fo r Barney Yard conductors and. of course,
behind th a t they have to take a te a t of some type. I have
never taken I t .
*4 la s e n io r i ty a fa c to r?
"7 L> 5?
9*3----— ....... .......... •• - ---- — ___ ___
*• *• Baynes - D irec t 543
1 A Yea, s e n io r i ty has a lo t to do w ith i t .
2 I %w Have you been projected to Barney la rd
:{ conductor, Hr. Haynes?
I 1 A Mo, 1 h av en 't.
5
i Are you fa m ilia r w ith the conductors who
t> wor* p re se n tly In the Barney yard?
•
- A Yea, I am.
8 4 Do you know who i s the youngest Barney
ft n r d conductor In te rm of h ire date ie Barney yard
10 1 brekeman?
N j A I believe i t i s S tra in e r Smith.
• 12 j Q Bo you know what h is h ir in g Mate is ?
— l.i A Sometime in *55 .
14 Q Bo you know 0. L. Turner?
l.'> | A Yea, I do.
Hi ! 4 Do you know when he was promoted to
17 i! Barney yard conductor? i
•
18 A
!
I th ink i t was 1970. 1 am not su re . j
19 H Do you know when he was h ired as a Barney
20 Yard brake man?
21 A About the same tim e, 1955.
2‘> 4 Do you know H. R. H olly, k . K. H unter,
2-1 j B. W. Hunt?
- 21 j
i A Yes.
25 j vt
1
Are those men Barney yard conductors?
7 0 * .
_______________ M« F. H tJO tt •
A Yea, they a re .
Q W*W tKa il MB prOMOfd to BUTMf H i t
eoadeetor a t a p p r a la a te ly tha mum t la e ?
A Dm , they war*.
4 Matt t i a a «aa th a t?
A 1970, around.
^ Whan were thoaa aan h lrad aa Barney Xferd
Man. braicaMan?
A 1 would may about tha aaaa t l a e , 1955.
4 W ill you a ta ta tha raoa of thoaa aan?
A Thoaa aan a ra b lack .
4 A ll?
A A ll b lack.
4 With raapact to tha a i r hoaa ru le . Nr.
Haynes, ware you requ ired by a w ritte n eon treo t to perform
tha d u tlea 11ated under the a i r hoee ru le before Naroh 1.
1968?
A Aeeordlng to ay knowledge, no.
4 Were you required by your superv iso rs to
perform thoee d u tlea?
A The, a i r , we were.
4 Did you In f a c t perform then?
NR. WOKEHUKKONs Your Honor —
YBB Ccraw 1 We hare been through th la .
Soaabody testified to all thla. Hr. Billar,
1 7 0 > .
I
I
(
1(
11
u
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2.‘3
24
25
945
MR. BALLKR: I have no fu r th e r questions
of th is w itness.
m s COURTS A ll r ig h t , s i r . Any c ro ss-
examination.
Ho cross-exam ination . s te p down. c n il
your next w itness.
(Witness excused.)
M. P. Haynes - D lw o t
L. / WTRglL, c e lled as a w itness by end
on behalf of the p l a i n t i f f s , being f i r s t du ly sworn,
t e s t i f i e d as fo llow s:
DIRECT JSXANUUffXQN
BY Ml. BALLERs
Q W ill you p lease s ta te your Mom and
address and In d ica te fo r the record your race .
A Edward L. P u t r e l l . 714 Portsmouth
Boulevard. Race, black.
ii Where are you employed T
A Norfolk and w estern.
Q In what d iv is io n ?
A In the ooal p ie r departnent as brakenan.
m u
/4 What was your h i r in g d a te In th a t Job?
946■ *. L. F u tra i l - D irec t ^
1 A The e ig h th south , 1961.
2 Co you know the date?
* 3 A The d a te was the 30th .
4 Q That i s August 30, 1961T
5 A Tea.
(i k Hare you been promoted to Barney m rd
•
7 conductor?
8 A Mo, I h av e n 't.
9 k Co r n low . W lliito t . Thornton, J r . t
10 A lb s , X do.
1 1 Q DO you snow approxim ately what h ie h ir in g
12 i|
da te Is ss * Barney Yard hraxeaaa?
13 A I t was the 31st of August, or 1 s t or 2nd of
14 September.
13 I
1 Q What year ?
10 j A •61.
17 I Q Do you know i f he has been promoted to
•
1H j Bsmey Yard 1 6 5
19 I| A No, he h av en 't.
MR, BALLEAs i have no fu r th e r question !.
THB COURTi Any question*.
MR. VCKTHUOTOKi Bo questions.
rn . MOODY. BO questions.
THE COURT. Step down.
(w itness excused.)
1 1 2 *
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
1 2
1 3
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
36
w ould a l s o say? w o u ld n 't y o u , Mr. D a lto n ? I t was w ary w a l l
th o u g h t o u t and shew ed a l o t o f m a s o n in g dona by a b r i l l i a n t
j u r i s t .
Now, go a h ea d and t a l l m a b o u t i t .
MR. BELTON; I t c o u l d n ' t co«a to t h a t , Your
H onor, b e c a u se I d o n ' t know w h a t e v id e n c e was in t r o d u c e d .
Now, we w i l l sa y t h e r e w ere two i s s u e s t h a t th e
C o u rt s h o u ld d e c id e in t h i s c a s e , w hich th e C o u rt d id n o t
have t o d e c id e i n th e C & 0 c a s e . T h a t i s th e r e g u e s t f o r
b a ck p ay w hich i s p ra y e d f o r i n t h e o o a p la in t . And w h e th e r o r
n o t i f th e C o u rt f i n d s a v i o l a t i o n o f T i t l e V II s h o u ld t h i s
C o u r t g r a n t a t t o r n e y 's f e e s .
I t h i n k . Your H onor, on th e i s s u e o f a t t o r n e y 's
f e e s th e d e c i s io n o f th e F o u r t C i r c u i t i n Lee and R obinson
make o u r a rg u m e n ts , and I w i l l d i r e c t ray a rg u m en t t o th e b ack
pay c la im .
Two th in g s I w i l l s im p ly m en tio n to th e C o u r t ,
f i r s t o f a l l , b ro u g h t t o th e a t t e n t i o n o f Ju d g e Hoffman in
P r e t r i a l and a l s o m en tio n ed a g a in a t th e b e g in n in g o f th e
t r i a l , t h a t we w ould l i k e to d i r e c t o u r e f f o r t s i n t h e t r i a l
on th e i s s u e o f b ack pay to p u t t i n g on e v id e n c e show ing t h a t
t h e r e i s an econom ic l o s s . And i f th e C o u rt s h o u ld f in d
t h a t t h e r e i s an e c o n o sd c l o s s w hich m a u l t e d from th e
p r a c t i c e s o f w hich th e p l a i n t i f f s c o m p la in , th e n th e C o u rt
w ould h o ld a s e p a r a t a h e a r in g to d e te rm in e t h a t am ount.
7 7 3 a.
[by Mr. Bailer] 19
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b r i e f l y s o m o f th e l e g a l 'q u e s tio n s c o n ta in e d in i t .
My s t a r t i n g p o i n t i s , I t h in k , a b s o l u t e ly th e
same a s th e s t a r t i n g p o i n t o f a l l t h e s e d e fe n d a n ts i n t h i s
c a s e . T h a t i s th e v a s t im p o rta n c e o f s e n i o r i t y f o r a r a i l r o a d
» a n . Our p l a i n t i f f s s h a r e th e d e f e n d a n t 's viow t h a t s e n i o r i t y
i s th e m ost im p o r ta n t te rm and c o n d i t io n and b e n e f i t o f
em ploym ent f o r a r a i l r o a d man. We su b m it t h e r e f o r e t h a t t h e
C o u rt m ust r e c o g n is e t h i s v i t a l r i g h t h a s to b e a s s u r e d to
p la c k s a s w e l l a s to w h i te s so t h a t th e y can e n jo y th e b e n e f i t s
o f t h e i r s e n i o r i t y j u s t a s w h i te s h av e e n jo y e d th e b e n e f i t s
o f t h e i r own s e n i o r i t y .
Now, my p r i n c i p a l p o in t i s t h a t a s a s e t t e r o f
p r a c t *-c a * *a c t in t h i s s i t u a t i o n , B arney Y ard e s p lo y e e s c a n n o t ,
g iv e n th e c o n d i t io n s t h a t p r e v a i l in th e r a i l r o a d i n d u s t r y ,
and g iv e n th e c o n d i t i o n s t h a t e x i s t i n th e N o rfo lk T e rm in a l ,
go t o w ork in th e CT Y ard a t th e b o tto m o f th e CT Y ard r o s t e r .
As a p r a c t i c a l m a t t e r g iv e n a rem edy o f to p p in g and b o tto m in g
th e y m ust and w i l l rem ain in th e B arney Y ard f o r th e p r e s e n t
tim e and f o r som etim e i n t o th e f u t u r e . The f a c t t h a t t h e r e
hav* b e en no ch an g es u n d e r th e o ld sy s te m in th e p a s t , I
t a i n k p r e v e n ts an e x a c t a n a lo g y to w h a t w ould happen i n th e
f u t u r e b e c a u se w ith r e s p e c t to CT Y ard w o rk , and i n r e l a t i o n
to th e s e n i o r i t y p o s i t i o n o f p r e s e n t CT Y ard e ^ > lc y * e s ,
to p p in g and b o tto m in g w i l l p u t B arney Y ard man i n th e
p o s i t io n t h a t th e y have p r e v io u s ly b e en in ,. W hich i s t o *ay
7 7 3 * .-!
t h a t no m a t te r w hat t h e i r s e n i o r i t y p o s i t i o n Ln th e B arney
^ arr,-« tJ'.t*y w i l l be l a s t in th e CT Y ard a f t e r e v e ry o n e who i s
a l r e a d y t h e r e .
F o r th e n to go i n t o th e CT Y ard th e n u n d e r a
to p p in g and b o tto m in g o r d e r a t th e p r e s e n t tim e i s l i k e g o in g
in a s a new h i r e . They w ould have no s e n i o r i t y r i g h t s
v i$ - a - v i* p r e s e n t CT Yard em ployees w hich can be e x e r c i s e d
in th e CT Y ard . T h e ir o n ly s e n i o r i t y r i g h t s v/ould b e back
in th e B arney Y ard . And t h e i r o n ly new s e n i o r i t y r i g h t s
w ould be g a in e d a s a g a i n s t s u b s e q u e n t h l r e e s . F o r th e n ,
p r i c e o f w o rk in g in th e CT Y ard w ould be t h a t th e y fo re g o
in t h e i r CT Yard w ork a l l th e a d v a n ta g e s o f th e s e n i o r i t y t h a t
th e y have la b o re d so h a rd o v e r many y e a r s t o b u i ld up i n t h i s
B arney Y ard . T hese a d v a n ta g e s , a s Your Honor r e c o g n iz e d in
th e C ft O d e c i s i o n , a r e s im p ly a l l t h a t a r a i l r o a d man h a s
t o lo o k fo rw ard t o . He doos n o t g e t an i n c r e a s e in pay e x c e p t
a s th e u n io n a g re e m e n ts g a in an in c r e a s e f o r e v e ry b o d y . B ut
he d o es th ro u g h b u i ld in g up h i s s e n i o r i t y a t t a i n r e g u l a r i t y
and c e r t a i n t y o f work when th e r e i s any work to be had f o r
anyone in th e y a rd . He o b ta in s a c e r t a i n s e c u r i t y from
fu r lo u g h and a n n u lm e n t, lie o b t a in s p r e f e r e n c e a s b e tw een
d i f f e r e n t s h i f t s and d i f f e r e n t jo h a s s ig n m e n ts w i th in th e
s h i f t .
Under a to p p in g and b o tto m in g o r d e r a s i t w ou ld
o p o r a te a t th e p r e s e n t t im e , and in th e n e a r f u t u r e , a s a
773*.
p r a c t i c a l m a t t e r , B arney Y ard men w ould h av e none o f th e s e
a d v a n ta g e s i n th e CT Y ard .
Mr. Bock, f o r e x am p le , who h as th e a d v a n ta g e s
o f 24 y e a r s o f s e n i o r i t y In th e B arney Y ard w ould have to
s a c r i f i c e th e s e to go to work In th e CT Y ard . U nder a to p p in g
and b o tto m in g o r d e r he w ould n o t be a forem an a s h e i s i n th e
B arney Y ard , h u t he w ould be a b rakem an . He w ould n o t hav e
h i s p r e s e n t a b i l i t y to ch o o se b e tw een jo b a s s ig n m e n ts and
s h i f t s . He w ould n o t have any c e r t a i n t y o f r e g u l a r em ploym ent
from one day to th e n e x t , d e s p i t e h i s 24 y e a r s .
Mr. R u s s e l l 'C a lk e r t e s t i f i e d a t t r i a l t h a t ona
o f th e a d v a n ta g e s o f h i s 14 y e a r s o f w o rk in g in t h e B arney
Y ard was t h a t n r had a c e r t a i n d e g re e o f c h o ic e b e tw een th e
d i f f e r e n t j o b s , and he e n jo y e d and b e n e f i t e d from th e
o p p o r tu n i ty t o e x e r c i s e t h a t c h o ic e , u n d e r a to p p in g and
b o tto m in g o r d e r he w ould have no c h o ic e iu th e CT Y ard . Be
w ould be ab le - to work o n ly when and i f none o f th e CT Yard
e m p lo y a e s , t h a t i s none o f th e n in e ty - s e v e n p e r c e n t o f th e
w h ite em ployees goes to work in a c e r t a i n jo b , th e n i t w ould
be open t c Mr. W alker to ch o o se t h a t jo b .
Mr. Haynes and o t h e r w i tn e s s e s t e s t i f i e d t h a t
f i n a l l y a f t e r 10 y e a r s o f work in th e c a s e o f Mr. H aynes, he
hac a c e r t a i n s e c u r i t y from e x te n d e d f u r lo u g h s , and f r cct
v e ry f r e q u e n t f u r lo u g h s . ^ u t , o f c o u r s e , he w ould have no
s e c u r i t y o f t h a t ty^*e in th e CT Y ard u n d e r a to p p in g and
21
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o o tto m in g o r d e r . Ke w ould have o n ly th e p o s s i b i l i t y o f
r e tm m ln o to th e b a rn e y Y ard , w hich i s , o f c o u r s e , w hat ho
han now, an'* i t does n o t r 'o r e i ^ n t any k in d o f remedy to him .
My p o i n t I s t h a t th e s e men c a n n o t and w i l l n o t
a t th e p r e s e n t tim e work in th e CT Yard u n d e r th e te rra s o f
to p p in o and b o tto m in g s e t t l e m e n t . P o r them a t th e p r e s e n t
tim e to p r in o and b o tto m in g i 3 an i l l u s o r y rem edy. I t s o n ly
e f f e c t i s p r o s p e c t i v e . I t s o n ly e f f e c t w ould b e a f t e r a
c e r t a i n num ber o f y e a r s , and I am s u re we a r e a l l aw are in
th e r a i l r o a d c o n te x t th e num ber o f y e a r s te n d s to be r a t h e r
e x te n d e d . But a f t e r a c e r t a i n num ber o f y e a r s th o s e s e n i o r i t y
r i g h t s g r a n te d th ro u g h to p p in g and b o tto m in g w ould m a tu re i n t o
so m e th in g w hich as a p r a c t i c a l n a t t e r w ould b e u sed to g iv e
th e s e men a d e g re e o f c h o ic e t h a t b e g in * to p a r a l l e l w hat th ey '
e x e r c i s e d in th e B arney Y ard.
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THE C O U R T : W e ll, y o u r r e c o rd r e f l e c t s th ough
th e r e was a t h i r t e e n p e r c e n t tu r n o v e r in th e two o r th ro e
y e a r s t h a t w ere in o b s e r v a t io n in t h i s c a s e . I c a n ' t f i n d ,
i f s t a t i s t i c s p ro v in g yo u r c a s e a r e to be r e l i e d o n ,
Mr. B a i l e r , th e y a r e n o t g o in g to ta k e a l l th e s e s t a t i s t i c s
u n d e r su ch c ir c u m s ta n c e s in 7 1 /2 t o 3 y e a r s . T h is w ould be
no p ro b lem a t a l l .
UR. 3A1.LER: In 7 1 /2 to 8 y e a r s wo f e e l i t
w ould be sone p ro b lem . I t w ould be l e s 3 o f a p ro b lem th a n i t
i s now, b u t i t i s o b v io u s i t w ould ta k e a n o th e r 7 1 / 2 t o a yeajrs
7 7 i a - V
to nova up to a fo re m a n 's jo b , f o r ex am p le , f o r M r. Hock who
i s a l r e a d y a forem an in th e B arney Y ard , and *o o n , i t w ould
ta k e a n o th e r 7 .
T J I T COURT: I p u rp o s e ly have n o t , and I an n o t
y o in q to ta k e t h e , w h a te v e r e x h i b i t m ig h t i l l u s t r a t e th e d a ta
o f s e n i o r i t y f o r B am oy Y ard men and d a te o f s e n i o r i t y f o r
CT Y ard men, and t r y to se e w h a t a f f o c t a d o v e t a i l i n g w ould
have a s i t moved b la c k men down in s e n i o r i t y , o r w h ite « an up
in s e n i o r i t y , b e c a u se I ara n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n b la c k s o r w h i te s
in th e s e n s e t h a t I o u g h t to be In f lu e n c e d one way o r th e
° ^ '* r * i t h r e g a r d to i t . But w h ile you a rg u e t o na a l l o f
th e t h in g s t h a t m ig h t a f f e c t Mr. Rock in a d o v e ta i l i n g
s i t u a t i o n , in a to p p in g and b o tto m in g s i t u a t i o n , Mr. Rock i s
n o t th e o n ly p o rso n f o r whose b e n e f i t th e s u i t i s b ro u g h t .
Mow, when you f i t 3 5 3 , i f t h a t i s how many
w h ite p e o p le , w h ite brakem en there a r e in th e CT Yard in to
138, o r 139 in th e B arney Y ard , i t j u s t seems to mo by fo rc e
o f num bers b la c k p e o p le w ould be i n ju r e d more th a n w h ite
p e o p le .
Now, i f you can t e l l me I am w rong I w i l l be
I
g la d to h o a r i t , Mr. B a i l e r .
MF. BALLER: W e ll, i t i s th e p o s i t i o n o f o u r
p l a i n t i f f s , who, o f c o u r s e , r e p r e s e n t th e b la c k p e o p le i n th e
N o rfo lk T erm in a l t h a t th e y w ould n o t bo in ju r e d more th a n
w h ite p e o p le . We a c c e p t t h a t p o s i t i o n and i t i s o u r s .
2 4
!
2
3
4
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7
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lO
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“Jow, my p r i n c i p a l p o in t i s , you know, I i n s i s t
t h a t a f t e r 7 1 /2 to 8 y e a r s u n d e r a ta p p in g and b o tto m in g
o r d e r t h a t th e p o s i t i o n o f th e p l a i n t i f f s a n d t h e i r c l a s s w ould
be s u b s t a n t i a l l y im proved from w hat i t w ould be g iv e n no
r e l i e f . But I a l s o i n s i s t t h a t th e y w ould n o t be r e tu r n e d t o
t h e i r r i g h t f u l p l a c e , and more fu n d a m e n ta lly — t h i s i s
s e c o n d a ry a rg u m e n t.
The p r im a ry argum en t w ith r e s p e c t to th e
to p p in g and b o tto m in g , th e y c a n n o t be made to w a i t 7 1 / 2 o r 8
y e a r a . The e f f e c t o f to p p in g and b o tto m in g i s to ta c k a
n in e ty p e r c e n t b la c k l i n e on th e b o tto m o f a n in e ty - s e v e n
p e r c e n t w h ite l i n e .
THE COPRT: And i t w orks b o th w ays. The w h ite
on th e b o tto m o f th e b la c k l i n e a l s o . 'P i i s i s n o t a one-w ay
s t r e e t .
mi*. BALLRR: T h at i s c o r r e c t . B ut i f i t i s n o t
a one-w ay s t r e e t th e flow o f t r a f f i c i s much h e a v ie r in one
d i r e c t i o n b e c a u se a s we have show n, th e B arney Y ard jo b s a r e
i n f e r i o r .
How, w h a t th e p l a i n t i f f s ' dematyi i s t h e i r i
r i g h t f u l p l a c e , w hich i s th e th e o ry a l l o f th e s e c a s e s have
been d e c id e d u n d e r , and th e y demand i t now. They don t demand
i t in th e f u t u r e . In 1971 , a s we a r e now, th e p l a i n t i f f s a r e
a l r e a d y 6 y e a r s rem oved from th e d a te w hen, a c c o rd in g t o tike
C i v i l R ig h ts A c t, th e y w ere t o l d t h a t d i s c r i s d n a t l o n in
7 7 ? 4 - 6
25
em ploym ent a g a i n s t them m ust c e a s e .
Our p l a i n t i f f s ta k e th e ;> o s it io » t h a t h a v in g
w®ite<! 6 y e a r s and s u f f e r e d 6 y e a r s o f u n la w fu l d i s c r im i n a t io n
i
t h a t th e y have a r i g h t to a f u l l and e f f e c t i v e d e c re e w hich
w i l l p u t them in t h e i r r i g h t f u l p la c e i n s o f a r a s i t i s p o s s ib l e
now. ’Jo t i n 7 o r 8 y e a r s . T h a t i s th e fu n d am e n ta l p o in t
t h a t I w a n t to make w ith r e s p e c t t o to p p in g and b o tto m in g .
THF COURT: 'J e l l , I am n o t a rg u in g w ith you
b e c a u se I r e c o g n is e th e v a l i d i t y o f y o u r a rg u m e n t. T here i s
no o t h e r m a t te r in th e mind o* th e C o u rt e x c e p t t h a t w h a t i s
done o u g h t t o be in a c c o rd a n c e w ith th e law , and to u se an
o ld e x p r e s s io n , f a i r , and i t o u g h t t o be done now. B u t, I
c a n n o t h e lp b u t o b s e r v e , Mr. B a i l e r , t h a t i f 130 b la c k
s e n i o r i t y p o s i t i o n , and 380 w h i te , 330, i 3 t h a t i s th e num ber.
I d id have i t h e re in f r o n t o f raa whan I v&3 re v ie w in g t h i s
i n th e p a s t th r e e o r f o u r d ay 3 . T h ere i s some s e n i o r i t y f o r
b la c k p e o p le t h a t o u g h t to be p r o t e c te d j u s t a s th e sama
s e n i o r i t y o u g h t to be p r o t e c te d f o r a w h ite p e r s o n . I d o n ' t
t h in k t h a t th e c o lo r o f th e s k in o f th e p e rso n h a v in g th e
s e n i o r i t y i s th e n a t t e r t h a t o u g h t to be th e d e te rm in in g
f a c t o r i n any d e c i s io n t h a t th e C o u rt m akes. And i t i s n o t
g o in g to b e .
MP.. J3ALLER: We a g re e c o m p le te ly b la c k s e n i o r i t y
s h o u ld b e p r o t e c te d and g r a n te d t h a t s e n i o r i t y i t s f u l l e f f e c t
a s o f h i r e d a te i s a d e q u a te p r o t e c t i o n f o r th o s e b la c k p e o p le
7 73 a - 7
i n t h e i r jo b s and in th e o t h e r jo b s in th e T e rm in a l . A ll th e y !
w an t i s to be a b l« to e n jo y th e b e n e f i t s o f t h e i r h i r e d a te
i t
s e n i o r i t y , and t h a t ' i s o u r p o s i t i o n w i l l a d e q u a te ly p r o t e c t
th e n .
Tfir COURT: W ell, l o t ne • • I an n o t a rg u in g
w ith y o u . We a re d i s c u s s in g a common p ro b le m . B u t w i th o u t
know ing , and w i th o u t f o r th e moment c o n s id e r in g w h a t R o b e rt
P ock’ s d a te o f s e n i o r i t y i n , a s o p posed to any o t h e r p a r s o n 's j
d a te o f s e n i o r i t y , l e t ' s assum e f o r a m in u te t h a t h i r i n g in
th e CT Y ard on a d a te o f em ploym ent b a s i s , t h a t t h e r a w are
50 w h ite men who w ould have a s e n i o r i t y d a te p r i o r t o t h a t
o f R o b e r t Rock. And I fo llo w e d y o u r ad v i; e and d o v e ta i l e d
th e s e two s e n i o r i t y s y s te m s . And in d o in g so t h e r e f o r e p u t
50 p e o p le above P o b o r t Rock in a d a te o f s e n i o r i t y , and a s a
r e s u l t o f i t K r. Rock who h a s w orked 35 y e a r s to g a in th a
!
p o s i t i o n t h a t he had o f b e in g a b le to ch o o se h i s s h i f t and
to a f f e c t f u r lo u g h s to him and r e h i r e s to hitr., i s th e n p u t
back 50 num bers i n l i n e and h a s to ta k e some jo b t h a t he
o th e rw is e w o u ld n ’ t h a v e . I c a n ' t s e e t h a t a s a C o u rt I am
a c c o irp l is h in g th e p u rp o se o f a v o id in g a p rob lem t h a t e x i s t s
when you have two r o s t e r s a* some a g e .
**R. EALUSR: Of c o u r s e , th e 50 men in y o u r
h y p o th e t i c a l w ould bo s i r p e r io r t o him in s e n i o r i t y . They a r e
now h o ld in g jo b s in th e CT Y ard , and I b e t co m p arab le o r
b e t t e r jo b s to R o b e rt Rock , and he w ould th e n have th e
77J<i -8
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s e n i o r i t y t o b i d f o r t h o s e j o b s i f t h e y ch o se t o v a c a t e jo b s
e c u ’, b i d f o r h i s .
Tfir COURT; r c a n ' t s p e c u l a t e 0:1 t h a t . I f
cj 0 1 o b s r u n t h e d a y t i m e r o s t e r o * y a r d m a 3 t e r ' s jo b s o r
s o m e t h i n g o u t a n * ! p u t t h e m i n i t , p u t i n b o t h y a r d s , th ro u g h
t h e f o r e m e n , t h r o u g h t h e y a r d n u s a t e r s a n d g o t t o th e p o i n t o f
w h e r e R o b e r t P o c k w a s f o r c e d t o w o r k o n S a t u r d a y s and S u n d ay s,
I w o u l d b o d o i n g h i m a d i s s e r v i c e . I j u 3 t t h i n k I w ou ld .
: * n . 3ALLSR; b u t , a s a mat t o r o f f a c t , th e
r e a s o n o u r p l a i n t i f f s a r e i n t h i s l a w s u i t , t h e y f e o l t h e i r
p r o t e c t e d s e n i o r i t y r i g h t s to t h o s e Uarnoy Y a r d jo b s i s n o t
w o r t h a s m u c h t o t h e m a s t u e i r r i g h t t o com pete o n an e q u a l
b a s i 3 w i t ) ; t h e c T Y a r d e m p l o y e e s f o r a l l jo b s in th e T e rm in a l .
T h a t i s t h e p o s i t i o n o f t h e p l a i n t i f f s . T h a t i s why th o y a ra
i n t h e l a w s u i t . I t h i n k t u i e y h a v e s u p p o r t e d t h i s p o s i t i o n
t h r o u g h o u t t h e p r o c e e d i n g s , a n d a s t h e i r c o u n s e l I c e r t a i n l y
a c c e p t t h a t e v a l u a t i o n .
T h e r e i s a n o t h e r p o i n t w h i c h I t h i n k t h a t we a r e
o v e r d r a m a t i z i n g , t h e e f f e c t t h a t a d o v e t a i l i n g w ould h a v e , v
and 1 w ould l i k e t o d i r c u s s t h a t . I t h i n k you c a n ' t s e p a r a t e j
t h e i n a d e q u a c y f r o m t o p p i n g a n d b o t t o m i n g from th e p r o t e c t i v e
f e a t u r e s w h i c h w o u l d a c c o m p a n y a d o v e t a i l i n g p la n and m a k e
f e a s i b l e a n d a ls o p r o t e c t t h e l e g i t i m a t e i n t e r e s t s o f p r e s e n t
e m p l o y e e s .
T H E C O U R T ; H o m e b o d y i s g o i n g t o be a d v e r s e ly
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a f f e c t e d no m a t te r w hat sy s te m you u a e , a s I see i t .
H r. B a i l e r , from a b o u t an R month s tu d y r** t h i s . And where e
systen --
MU. THALLER: But n o t on th e b a s i s o f r a o e .
THE COURT: Somebody i s g o in g to be a ffec ted
a d v e r s e ly , no m a t t e r w hat sy s te m , and n o t w h i te o r b la c k .
J u s t a s e n i o r i t y num ber. And under a system o f tooping and
b o tto m in g , a s you know, t h a t I o rd e r e d in th e C t O case, X
f e l t t h a t th e n , and s c f a r I f e e l th e same w ay, th a t X h aven 't
s tu d i e d t h i s p a r t i c u l a r c a s e i n t h i s d e t a i l , th a t i f Itobert
Pock, t o u se hir> a s an e x am p le , m a in ta in s h i s presen t
s e n i o r i t y in a y a r d , ev en i f t h a t in some m anner i s in fe r io r ,
as you say i t i s , and a t th e sa n e t i n e i s g a in in g se n io rity
t h a t i s n e v e r g o in g to do R obert Rock any good because to b e rt
Rock and I a r e g o in g t o be p u sh in g up d a i s i e s by the time th a t
t h i s comes a b o u t . T h a t i s j u s t by v i r t u e o f h i e age end mine.
You and Mr. B e lto n m ig h t be a ro u n d . You lo o k young enough.
But Mr. Rock and T a r e n e t .
Now, a t th e same tim e we a re n o t going about the
p la n j u s t a t th e to p . T h is h a s g o t t o be so m e th in g th a t i s
a v e ra o e d o v e r th e w hole s c a l e . And i f Rock d o e s n ' t get the
s p e c i f i c b e n e f i t s o f i t , maybe num ber 95 down d o e s . And any
o r d e r t h a t i s p ro m u lg a te d , a s I s e e i t , h a s g o t t o be thought
o f in th e te rm s o f how i t a f f e c t s e v e ry b o d y on th e sc a le .
Now, I am l i s t e n i n g anc I d o n ' t mean to i n t e r
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your arguaent, except by exchanges l ik e th is perhaps Z gain
aonething out o f i t , as you n igh t.
MR. BALLERt I f I can sun up, because I think
I fu lly presented our p o sitio n .
THE COURT: A ll r ig h t.
MR. BALLBR: Mr. Rock deserves and demands
r e l i e f fo r h in s e lf and not only fo r h is son. Zt i s too la ta
to grant r e l i e f in an in ju n ctive sense to B se ll Johnson
because he has re tire d a f te r su ffe r in g e f fe c ts o f d is c r in in a t i :
over a career o f 35 y e a rs . We d on 't think th at should happen
to anyone e ls e .
We also want to point out in a l l o f the
d o v eta ilin g type remedies ordered by the Court o f Appeals
there has been a no bunping p rovision . Zncunbent employees
are not, despite the th e o re tic a l operation o f the merger, to
be displaced from th e ir present jobs by tran sferees eaareisin g
rig h ts that were gained as part o f the l i t ig a t io n .
S p e c if ic a l ly white incusbents are not to be kicked out o f
th e ir present jobs by blacks even i f the b lacks nay have
greater plantw ise s e n io r ity .
The orders which have been entered a f f e c t only
bidding fo r future vacancies and fo r promotions. We think
th at we recognise th at th is would be a necessary p art as a
matter o f le g a l p rin c ip le o f any d o v eta ilin g order which the
Court might en ter. I t was c e r ta in ly part o f Local l t 9 's o rd e i,
29
7 7 3 a.- / /
[by Mr. Worthington] St
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c h a n g e d . So, Your H onor, th e y c a n ' t h av e I t both ways. I f
th e y w a n t d o v e t a i l i n g h e re b e fo r e Y our H onor, they cannot
c la im in t h e i r b r i e f , a 3 th e y h a v e , t h a t t h e Railway Posy any
d i d n ' t r e a l l y toe an d o v e t a i l i n g when we o f f e r e d i t .
B ut a l l o f t h a t i s a s k in g Your H onor t o ta k e
d o cu m en ta ry e v id e n c e w h ich i s u n c o n t r a d ic t e d and c o n t r a d i c t
th e p l a i n t i f f ' s d o cu m en ta ry s ta te m e n t t h a t th e y d i d n o t w e n t
i n t e g r a t i o n and th e n b e l i e v e t h a t th e R ailw ay Company d i d n ' t
mean i t when th e y s a i d in w r i t i n g th e y w ould do i t .
B e a r i n m ind , Y our H onor, t h i s s u i t was broaght,
and t h i s i s u n d is p u te d , b e fo r e t h e p l a i n t i f f s aver knew
w h e th e r th e R ailw ay Company was w i l l i n g to do anything o r aok,
b e c a u se i t was n e v e r com m unicated t o them . And both the
p l a i n t i f f s who a r e named p l a i n t i f f s , who were w itnes s e s , s ta te d
u n d e r o a th th e y had n e v e r even h e a rd t h a t th e Railway Company
was a g re e a b le t o do t h a t . Y et th e y come h e r e . Your Honor,
and a sk to c o n v ic t th e R ailw ay Conpany o f a v io la tio n o f
T i t l e V II o f th e C i v i l R ig h ts Act f o r fa ilu re to t a k e
a f f i r m a t i v e a c t io n t o I n t e g r a t e th o s e r o s t e r s when they asked
us n o t t o , and we com m unicated th ro u g h channels wo were w illisjg
t o . They su e d us b e f o r e we h a d any ch an o e to emaa ta lk about
i t .
Your H onor, I su b m it i f t h e r a w as ever a
i n w h ich t h i s d e fe n d a n t s h o u ld b e exonerated o f any
i n t e t i o n a l , i f t h a t w ord s t i l l s t a y s i n tha s ta tu te v io la tio n
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to
o f equal employment op portu n ities, then thia ia such a oaae
where the Railway Company should be emonorated.
Mow, X would submit a lso that the p la in t i f f haa
fa ile d to prove th a t the Railway Cotap any waa g u ilty o f any
p a rtic u la r a ct in which we discrim inated againat anyone
e n t ir e ly . They h aven 't brought a a in gle person here th at sa id
lie went to the CT Yard and waa black and waa refused employman b
when there were h irin g opportunities th ere. They haven 't
brought a s in g le instance sin ce 1965 o f anybody who ia
e l ig ib le fo r promotion in e ith e r yard who was not promoted.
They have proven no segregation in the t o i le t or lo cker rooms
which they complained about, but h aven 't proven i t . They
h aven 't proven any ta s ts fo r employment. There are no te s ta
other than the p o lice check and p h ysical exam. They proved no
promotion te a ts th at are not re la te d to the job , such as
learn in g the sa fe ty ru les which they are required to learn
under PELA.
Now, X would have to concede th at as fa r as the
Railway Company i s concerned, th a t the p la in t i f f s do show a
case i f you work in the Barney Yard you do g et furloughed
more o fte n , and I think we have explained th at ia a p e r fe c tly
le g itim a te business in cid en t, i f there are no sale# o f ooal
and no ships to pick up the c o a l, there is no work fo r the
Barney Yard. On the other hand, I think Your Honor should be
aware in th at connection, th at by the choice o f the p la in t i f f*
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th ro u g h t h e i r own u n io n , th e y naked t h a t t h i s e x t r a b o a rd b e
s e t up and t h a t i t be c u t b a c k . And th e m a in te n a n c e o f th e
e x t r a b o a rd d o es th ro w p e o p le o u t o f w ork . And t h a t i s a w e l l
docum ented and u n c o n t r a d ic t e d a f f e c t o f haw ing th e e x t r a
b o a rd .
I w ould sa y a l s o we hav e to co n ced e t h a t a
who w orks in th e B arney Y ard i s n o t g o in g t o b e p ro m o ted on
^ r * t l e v e l o f p ro m o tio n a s f r e q u e n t ly o r q u ic k ly a s th e
man i n th e CT Y ard . I t h in k t h a t h a s been p ro v e n . The
s t a t i s t i c s , th e o t h e r m ethods o f p ro v in g we have t o co n ced e
th e y d o . B u t I w ould s u g g e s t t o Y our Honor t h a t s t a t i s t i c s
a l s o show t h a t a man who s t a r t s i n th e B arney Y ard h a s g o t a
b e t t e r
varY• v e ry m uch/chanon o f g e t t i n g to th e se c o n d l e v e l up t o t b
c a r r e t a r d e r o p e r a t o r th a n he d o e s i n th e CT Y ard b e c a u se
f i f t e e n p e r c e n t o f t h e b la c k em p loyees i n th e B arney Y a rd , o r
29 p e o p le o u t o f I f 6 a r e now c a r r e t a r d e r o p e r a t o r s , w h e rea s
i n th e CT Y ard th e r e a r e o n ly 23 c a r r e t a r d e r o p e r a t o r s o u t o f
421 e m p lo y e e s , w hich i s o n ly a b o u t s i x p e r c e n t . So t h a t a
b la c k man in th e B arney Y ard h a s g o t more th e n tw ic e s s good
a ch an ce o f g e t t i n g to th e se co n d l e v e l a s h i s w h i te
c o u n te r p a r t i n th e CT Y ard , so t h a t t h a t may n o t ev en b a la n c e
o u t . B u t i t c e r t a i n l y t a k e s some o f th e s t i n g o u t o f w hat
we h av e t o c o n c e d e . I t i s t r u e t h a t th e p ro m o tio n o p p o r t u n i t y
a r e g r e a t e r in th e CT Y ard b e c a u s e you have s m a l l e r c re w s .
You have g o t i n th e CT Y ard , you hav e g o t one c o n d u c to r and
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two brakemen. In th e Barney Yard you have one foreman and
you might have up to 8 or 10 man working fo r him. You d on 't
need aa many foreman.
I think there has bean aneoonomic d iffe re n c e . I
think the CT Yard work has expanded and the Barney Yard work
has tended to d eclin e s l ig h t ly in recent years. But regardless
o f those things the Railway Company's p osition in th is case
is we are w ill in g to give the p la in t i f f s greater m ob ility , and
we were w ill in g to do i t before they sued us. And we were
w ill in g to do i t before they even asked us to do i t because
they kept saying we are not asking you to do i t . And we in
October 1968 v o lu n ta rily a t r is k o f the d ispleasure o f the
labor unions, and you can be sura we did d isp lease them, and
we o ffe re d to do i t , and we have never backed o f f from th a t,
and we are s t i l l here today.
I would suggest a lso to Your Bonor th at beyond
the lack o f proof o f v io la tio n o f T it le V II, beyond the lack
o f proof o f that the Railway has done nothing to discrim inate
again st i t s black employees, th at we have taken a ffirm a tive
steps to try to erad icate any discrim inatory a f fe c t o f p rio r
p ra ctice p re ex itin g 1965.
Now, I would c a l l to Your Honor's a tten tio n the
testimony o f the w itness Glass who was the superintendent in
the CT Yard th at he had worked fo r two ra ilro ad s b efo re. And
at page 477 he was asked what r e s p o n s ib ility did you have in
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you r jo b fo r h ir in g brakemen in tho CT yard jo b . Hr, Ola
answ ered; "They a re h ire d through ay o f f i c e . My c h i e f
c le r k g e n e r a l ly sc re e n s the a p p lic a n ts and a a k e s ou t the
n e c e ss a ry p r e l la in a r y p apers fo r th e h i r in g , and a f t e r th
h ere passed th e n e c e ss a ry q u a l i f i c a t i o n s , ” and so f o r t h .
And I w i l l skft> so a e . I asked t h i s :
"Wow, s in c e you have been d is c h a r g in g t h is
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y fo r th e R ailw ay Coapaay, what o cca s
has a r is e n where th e re was one vacan cy and th e re
would be a w h ite a p p lic a n t and a b la c k a p p lic a n t
and th e re would be any p r e fe r e n c e o v e r one or th e
"A There have been none. l have had th r
h ir in g e p is o d e s in 22 Months th a t I have been her
and in a l l th r e e c a s e s I had a u th o r ity to h ir e 50
ktakem en, and I f i l l e d t h i s a u th o r ity as th e y casi
"0 Was th e re any p re fe re n c e o f any w h ite
a p p lic a n t o v e r any b la c k a p p lic a n t?
“A Wo, s i r .
"Q What o c c a s io n , i f an y, have you had te
encourage th e a p p lic a t io n o f b la c k a p p lic a n ts in
th e CT Yard snce you have been th e re ?
"A W e ll, I have re q u e ste d fro n a co u p le o
our c o lo re d yard brakenen to b r in g o r send sons o f
t h e i r f r ie n d s who would nake a good em ployee in
-fog employment.
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"0 C an y o u »«■ « t h a e m p l o y e s , t h e b l a c k
e m p lo y e e s t h a t y o u a s k e d t o b r i n g o t h e r b l a c k
«
e m p lo y e e s o r a p p l i c a n t s ?
M r. C h r i s t i a n a n d M r. B a k e r .
“ 0 W hat r e s u l t s h a v e y o u r e c e i v e d , i f a n y ,
fro m t h a t r e q u e s t ?
•A T h ey h a v e s e n t I n d i v i d u a l s t o b e
e m p lo y e d , a n d I b e l i e v e I e m p lo y e d — i t v a s e i t h o r
tw o o r t h r e e M r. B a k e r s e n t , a n d I r e a l l y d o n ' t know
how m any M r. C h r i s t i a n s e n t i n . "
So t h a t h e r e i s t h e man t h a t i s i n c h a r g e o f
h i r i n g i n t h e CT Y a rd who s a y s t h a t s i n c e h e h a s b e e n h e r e ,
h e h a s a c t i v e l y t r i e d t o r e c r u i t b l a c k a p n l l c a n t s , h a s
s u c c e e d e d i n r e c r u i t i n g th e m , a n d h i s t e s t i m o n y o n « a t
w as c o r r o b o r a t e d b y t h e w i t n e s s B a k e r who s a i d t h a t M r.
C l a s s a s k e d h im t o b r i n g p e o p l e t h e r e , a n d h e h a d b r o u g h t
th em t h e r e . So we h a v e a f f i r m a t i v e a c t i o n o n t h e p a r t o f
h i r i n g p e o p le i n t h e CT Y ard t o p ro m o te t h e r a c i a l m ix .
And we h a v e t h e r e s u l t s a c h i e v e d b y t h a t e f f o r t .
A g a in t h e w i t n e s s G l a s s , p a g e 5 1 0 j
"0 You s a y y o u h a v e e n g o u r a g e d b l a c k
a o p l i c a n t s to a p p ly fo r CT jo b s ? i s t h a t o o r re c t?
"A r e s .
•0 Do yo u a d v e r t i s e f o r j o b s i n t h e CT y j r d ?
------ _ -------------- "A Me h a v e s d w r H t ^ in l oqal
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n ew sp apers, y e s , a i r . L o ca l and as f a r as Rlohuon
Roanoke. We hare had ads In th e new spapers
a d v e r t is in g fo r jo b s .
"Q Would th a t be your r e s p o n s i b i l i t y fo r
p la c in g the ads?
•A Wo, s i r . T hat ad cones o u t o f th e
S u p e rin te n d e n t* s o f f i c e .
“ Q When i s th e f i r s t t in e th a t you know o
your own knowledge an ad p la ce d fo r CT Yard workern
"A i t was so n a tin a in th e y e a r I f 70. I t
con es to ne now as e i t h e r th e f i r s t o r n id d le p a r t
o f 1570 . i t i s the f i r s t and o n ly t in e I hare been
in N o rfo lk th a t an ad was p la c e d . i t has been
p la ce d n any, nany t in e s th rough ou t ny c a r e e r on
th e r a i l r o a d , b u t o n ly once h e r e .*
So th a t I th in k th a t th e e v id e n ce i s p e r
f e c t l y c le a r th a t th e y n ot o n ly hare se n t word in to th e
b la c k co n n u n ity lo o k in g fo r b la c k p eo p le in th e CT Y ard ,
and hare g o tte n th e n , but th e y h are a d v e r t is e d in th e
n ew spapers, a lth o u g h th e y hare n ever done i t b e fo r e h e r e ,
es Your Honor knows. I t has been a f a n i l y th in g .
We hare e v id e n ce th a t i s u n d isp u ted th a t tha
Company a t th e b eg in n in g o f th e e f f e c t iv e n e s s o f th e C i v i l
F lig h ts A ct adopted a p o l ic y to ab id e by i t , ap p oin ted Kqu
g g p lo y n e n tj^ p o r t u n lt y O f f i c e r , and we h are th e a d r e r t ls
bhat appeared in th e Conpany n a g a sln e th a t went ou t to a l l
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8
9
1 0
1 1
12
1 3
14
IS
16
17
1 8
19
20
21
22
2 3
2 4
2 5
employees saying v« are an equal employment employer »nd
in tend to abide by the C iv il Rights Act so th a t any black
employee who might want to t ra n s fe r to the CT Yard was
p e rfe c tly free to do so . Or i f he knee o f anyone th a t vented
k
employment w ith the Railroad they were p e rfe c tly free to ap p ly ,
th e re h a s n 't been a s in g le w itness here who sa id
he applied a t the CT Yard and was turned down because he was
b lack .
Now, X would submit a lso th a t s t a t i s t i c s which
have been used here to shew th a t the yards are sep ara te would
a lso show th a t th e re has been progress since 1965. And in
every year th ere has been p rogress, th e re have been black
employees th a t have gone in to the CT Yard. There were only
th r «« the CT Yard on Ju ly 1 , 1965, and by the f i r s t o f
1971 th ere were 19, which i s more than a s ix fo ld in crease .
Mow, you can c a l l th a t tokenism, bu t the Railway
Cfenpnny d o esn 't h ire and keep th a t many people in th a t length
o t t in e . How, i f you are going to take some dream world
wherein th ere i s an in s ta n t so lu tio n and te a r the whole
R ailroad down and s t a r t a l l over again , possib ly you could mix
them instan taneously . But I submit over a period o f th a t time
increasing the black employees in the CT Yard s ix fo ld i s
progress and not tokenism, and X submit a lso th a t during the
period o f time th a t the promotions in the CT Yard were
opened up to the black employees. You only had th ree black
66
7 s / a c
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
t 1
12
1 3
14
1 5
1 6
1 7
1 8
1 9
20
21
22
2 3
2 4
2 5
employees in tha CT Yard in 1965* and none o f than war*
suparviaory. But by 1971 twanty par oant. On* ou t o f fiv e
black employees w ith no acctmralated s a n io r ity war* now in
supervisory p o s itio n s . And by tha sans tokan tha percentage
o f w hite employment in tha Barney Yard has doubled during th a t
sane period o f t in e , even while o v e ra ll employment was
d ec lin in g • So s t a t i s t i c s can t a l l you s o f t anything you want,
depending on who i s reading then and how they are m anipulating
then. But I th ink the s t a t i s t i c s bear ou t the evidence th a t
the Railroad Conpamy brought here they hams a ffirm a tiv e ly
t r ie d to implement equal employment fea tu res o f the C iv il
Rights Act, and have accomplished the r e s u l t in th a t d ire c tio n
and are headed in th a t d ire c tio n .
But we s t i l l g e t back to the Railway Company's
p o s itio n , and th a t i s we are agreeable to the merger to give
the people m ob ility , and we were before we were sued, and we
s t i l l a re .
Now, th e re i s some claim we in some way are
responsib le fo r delay in g ran ting an a i r hose a rb it r a ry . Mow,
th a t has been argued in our b r ie f , and fo r the sake o f tim e,
and th is being a supposed ho liday , Z w on't reargue th a t , bu t
m e re ly c a l l t o y o u r a tte n tio n the fa c t th a t i t i s oovered in
o u r b r ie f s ta r t in g a t page 38. And Z w il l summarise i t in
th is way, Your Honor.
F i r s t , we were no t asked to change the a i r hoe*
67
7
TIIE COURT: I I .
X I
1 !
8 :lI
10
11
12
13
14
15
IH
1 7
18
ID
21)
21
22
MR. WORTHINGTON: Y es, I I , and r e c i t e s t h a t
th e C o u r t , h a v in g fo u n d t h a t t h i s t h in g w i l l ta k e c a r e o f
i t s e l f , and h a v in g found th e r e i s no r a c i a l im b a la n c e in
th e o v e r a l l w ork f o r c e i n th e com bined y a r d , b u t o n ly b la c k
im b a la n c e i n th e B arney Y a rd , and w h i te im b a la n c e in th e
CT Y a rd , t h a t we u n d e r th e num bered p a ra g ra p h o f t h e d e c r e e ,
u n d e r I I , 1 . we w i l l c e a s e f o r th w i th h i r i n g any yardm en in
th e N o r fo lk T e rm in a l by th e n e p o t i s t i c p r o c e d u re s an d I I .
" A ll h i r i n g f o r B arn ey Y ard and CT Y ard
w ork s h a l l b e done th ro u g h a s i n g l e o f f i c e , e i t h e r
a t th e p r e s e n t N o r fo lk T e rm in a l y a r d o f f i c e o r i n
s u c h o t h e r c o n v e n ie n t ly l o c a t e d f a c i l i t y , * f o r th e
p r o c e s s in g o f jo b a p p l i c a t i o n s .
Then on th e n e x t p a g e , t h i r d p a r a g r a p h .
" In h i r i n g new yardm en f o r t h e s e f a c i l i t i e s .
Now, you c a n ' t , a s we c o u ld d e m o n s tra te by a w i tn e s s h e r e
i f we have t o , you c a n ' t sa y t h a t a man i s g o in g , an
**PP^>ic a n t i s g o in g i n t o e i t h e r y a r d , b e c a u s e i f a v a ca n cy
e x i s t s i n th e CT Y a rd , f o r i n s t a n c e , and th e R a ilw ay Company
f o r e v i l p u rp o s e s w a n te d to p u t a w h i te man i n , th e R a i l r o a d
i s p o w e r le s s t o do i t b e c a u s e th e v a c a n c y d o e s n ' t r e a l l y
e x i s t i n th e CT Y ard . I f i t i 3 a d e s i r a b l e v a c a n c y , l i k e
w a te r s e e k in g i t s own l e v e l , th e p e o p le i n th e B a rn ey Y ard
who w an t t o be in t h e CT Y ard can go o v e r w i th a g r e a t e r
1 * 3 ^
I & >>
t \\
l ; s e n i o r i t y t h a n t h e n e w h i r e a n d t h e y w i l l d o s o , a n d
j
- 1 c o n v e r s e l y t h e w h i t e p e o p l e w i l l g o i n t o t h e B a r n e y Y a r d .
3 j S o t h a t i n h i r i n g n e w y a r d m e n f o r t h e s e f a c i l i t i e s , t h e
4 i Company w i l l c o n ta c t th o s e a g e n c ie s ( I n c lu d in g th e V i r g i n i a
j "
iS | S t a t e Em ploym ent C om m ission) and m ed ia i n th e N o r fo lk a r e a
H : w h ich a r e m ost l i k e l y t o p ro d u c e q u a l i f i e d b la c k a p p l i c a n t s
" i a s w e l l a s q u a l i f i e d w h i te a p p l i c a n t s and w i l l b e l i k e l y t o i
* ; c o n t in u e r a c i a l m ix i n a p r o p o r t io n c o m p a ra b le t o t h a t
I
» | p r e v io u s ly found by th e C o u rt t o e x i s t . In f u r th e r a n c e o f
10 j good f a i t h e f f o r t s t o m a in ta in su c h a r a c i a l m ix , th e Company
I •
n ; may e l e c t to d i s c o n t in u e co m m u n ica tio n w i th p a r t i c u l a r
12 a g e n c ie s and to s u b s t i t u t e o t h e r a g e n c ie s a n d /o r e n g ag e i n a
l
13 r e g u l a r p ro g ram o f a d v e r t i s i n g i n n e w sp a p e rs o r o t h e r m ed ia
11 h a v in g g e n e r a l c i r c u l a t i o n i n th e b la c k com m unity a s w e l l a 3
13 i th e w h ite com m unity i n th e N o rfo lk a r e a . i
! I
,(i ! We sa y a b o u t Y our H o n o r 's c o n c lu s io n , t h i s
i ;
17 | i s a s e l f - r e g u l a t i n g t h i n g , and t h e r e i s no n e e d f o r e l a b o r a t eII
18 ] r i g i d ty p e p r o c e d u r e s , and t h a t th e p r o o f o f c o m p lia n c e w i l l
1!) j b e in th e m a in te n a n c e o f th e r a c i a l m ix on th e s e m erged i
20 ; r o s t e r s . I f you hav e g o t a p r o p e r p o r t i o n o f b la c k em p lo y ees
I
21 | i n t i ie two y a rd s com bined w i th th e m erged r o s t e r s , t h a t i s !
■ - c o n s i s t e n t w ith th e p o p u la t i o n r a c i a l p r o p o r t i o n , t h a t
I
2> p ro v e s t h e r e i s no d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i n h i r i n g b e c a u s e you c a n n o t
21 p la c e a new em ployee i n a p a r t i c u l a r f a c i l i t y any l o n g e r . So
much f o r t h a t .
y
l i c i t , o n t h e t r a i n i n g a n d p r o n o t i o r a s p e c t s
2 , o f i t .!
i COURT: Now, do me a f a v o r . L e t 's do t h i s
I | one t h i n g a t a t i n e . How a b o u t h a v in g a s e a t a se c o n d ?
- j MR. WORTHINGTON: A l l r i g h t .
i
THE COURT: Now, t h e r e c o r d r e f l e c t s w h a t
M r. W o rth in g to n h a s s a i d , an d i n f a c t w h a t I a l l u d e d to i n
t h e memorandum t h a t when y ou h a v e new h i r e s c o n in g i n on a
s i n g l e r o s t e r t h a t th e p ro b le m o u g h t to r e l i e v e i t s e l f . Now;
H» i n th e C & O d e c re e I fo u n d t h a t i t w a s n 't e x a c t l y a p ro p o s
II t o th e p ro b le m h e re b e c a u s e t h e r e t h e r e was n o t o n ly th e
n a t t e r o f th e B arney Y a rd , and CT Y a rd , b u t i t h a d t o a l s o
13 | d i r e c t i t s e l f t o th e BRAC em p lo y ees in G roups 1 , 2 an d 3
14 J c l e r k s . F o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t d e c r e e d id h av e c o n s id e r a b le
15 d e t a i l i n i t , w h ich f o r th e m ost p a r t was d i r e c t e d a t t h e BRAC
R' s i t u a t i o n a s o p p o se d t o th e B arney Y ard c l a s s i f i c a t i o n y a rd
17 p ro b le m .
I
is j Now, i n th e p r o p o s a l a s made — y o u g e n tle m e n
19 j w i l l h a v e t o h o ld on now b e c a u s e I am t r y i n g to lo o k a t
20 ! t h r e e — a s s u g g e s te d by th e N o r fo lk and W este rn f o r whom
21 Mr. W o rth in g to n j u s t s p o k e , th e h i r i n g p ro c e d u re d o e s j u s t
22 ; t h a t , t h a t he h a s q u o te d . The h i r i n g p o r t i o n o f th e d e c r e e
2 i w ou ld be t h a t t h a t ho h a s j u s t a d d re s s e d h im s e l f t o .
i
?1 j i n t h e p ro c e d u re a s p ro p o se d by th e P l a i n t i f f s ,
j Rock and o t h e r s , t h e o n ly r e a l d i f f e r e n c e I c o u ld f i n a was
}
\ M R . B E L T O N : I d o n ’ t w a n t t o b e l a b o r t h e
! p o i n t , Y o u r H o n o r . I t h i n k w e s e t o u r p o s i t i o n f o r t h i n t h e
j p r o p o s e d d e c r e e , a n d I d o n ' t t h i n k I c o u l d e l a b o r a t e a n y
i
t ! f u r t h e r o n t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t w e s u b m i t t e d .
, T H E C O U R T : T h a t w a s y o u r b e s t j u d g m e n t o n t h e
Iii
i m a t t e r ?
!
M R . B E L T O N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , Y o u r H o n o r .
| T H E C O U R T : A l l r i g h t . N o w , I w i l l s i f t a l l
H j
o j t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n . M r . W o r t h i n g t o n , w h a t i s n e x t ?
1 0 I M R . W O R T H I N G T O N : A l l r i g h t , s i r . T h e s e c o n d
j
n I i t e m , Y o u r H o n o r , r e l a t e s t o t h e t r a i n i n g a n d p r o m o t i o n , a n d
i
1*2 i d o n ' t t h i n k t h a t w e a r e t o o f a r a p a r t o n t h a t . T h e r e i s
j
1 3 j o n e p r a c t i c a l f a c t o r .
\
, , i t h e C O U R T : T T h i c h p a r a g r a p h i s t h i s ?
I
1 5 j M R . W O R T H I N G T O N : T h i s i s i n t h e p r o p o s e d
1 « | d e c r e e o f t h e N o r f o l k a n d W e s t e r n . T h i s w o u l d b e P a r a g r a p h
1
I 0
1 7 *! I C . I t w o u l d b e o n p a g e 2 .i
w j L e t m e b a c k u p f o r a m o m e n t a n d s e t i t i n
] 9 | p r o s p e c t i v e . O u r h i r i n g p r o c e d u r e w o u l d g u a r a n t e e , w e s u b m i t ,
2 0 j t h a t a n e w h i r e w o u l d g o , w h i c h e v e r w a y t h e d e m a n d f o r
2 1 s e r v i c e s w o u l d i n d i c a t e w i t h o u t r e g a r d t o r a c e . S o t h a t v / x t h
2 2 ; t h e p r o c e s s o f t i m e , b e g i n n i n g i m m e d i a t e l y , t h e n e w h i r e s
2 3 : w o u l d g o i n d i s c r i m i n a t e l y i n t o t h e B a r n e y Y a r d o r C T Y a r o ,
.M j r e g a r d l e s s o f r a c e . T h a t l e a v e s t o b e t a k e n c a r e o f a g r o u p
j o f e m p l o y e e s t h a t a r e b l a c k t h a t Y o u r H o n o r h a s f o u n d a r e
lo c k e d i n t o t-i.o Barney V era . And ou r p r o v ir io n s f o r g iv in g
them a ch a n ce to b r e d : o u t o f th e B arney Yard and r-° t o th e
CT Yard a r e p r e t t y much in c o n t in e n c e w ith tn e p r o c e d u r e s
t h a t th e P l a i n t i f f s a r e a s k in g f o r and t h a t th e D efen d a n t
U nion a g re e s t o . We o n ly hav e i n t h a t r e g a r d one n a t t e r o f
s i g n i f i c a n c e . B e a r in g i n n in d t h a t we h av e th e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
a s a common c a r r i e r t o ru n t h e r a i lw a y and to ru n i t s a f e l y
and t o com ply w ith th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f s a f e t y f o r t h e em p lo y ees
u n d e r t h e F e d e ra l E m ployers L i a b i l i t y A c t , and t h e r e i s a
s i t u a t i o n we have c o v e re d t h a t t a k e s c a r e o f th e s a f e t y f a c t o r ,
acid we h a v e a w i tn e s s h e r e , i f n e e d b e , t o s u b s t a n t i a t e t h i s .
»I
To r e f r e s h Y our H o n o r 's r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h e
p ro c e d u re i s t h a t any B arn ey Y ard em ployee who w a n ts t o go
o v e r t o tn e CT Y ard and q u a l i f y a s a c o n d u c to r i n th e CT Y a rd ,
w h ich i s a se c o n d ra n g e i n th e l i n e o f p r o g r e s s i o n , i s g iv e n
n o t i c e o f an o p p o r tu n i ty to ta k e s p e c i a l t r a i n i n g and t o g iv e
.w h a t y ou m ig h t c a l l s u p e r s e n i o r i t y a s a c o n d u c to r i n th e
CT Y ard b e c a u s e when h e p a s s e s th e e x a m in a t io n he w i l l g e t
s e n i o r i t y .
THE COURT: As o f h i s o r i g i n a l d a te o f h i r e .
I1R. WORTHINGTON: Y es , a s o f o r i g i n a l d a t e o f
h i r e . T h is i s w h a t y ou c a l l s u p e r s e n i o r i t y . We c an l i v e w i th
t h a t . The R a i l r o a d Company d o e s n ' t c a r e . B u t we a r e c o n c e rn e d
w i th t h e s e p e o p le g e t t i n g th e t r a i n i n g and p a s s in g th e exam .
Nov/, th e y have o n ly had SO h o u rs t r a i n i n g , some o f th e m , in
1 1 ') \
1 4
v h a CT Y ard , w hich i s a d i f f e r e n t w o r ld fr o n th e B a rr cy Y ard ,
ar Your liar o r h r * fo u n d , and. J th in !; r i c h t l y r e . H- p a ss o s
th e exam • ,* e \h e u c n t t o ■’.■.or'' im m e d ia te ly a s c c o n d u c to r
-n th e CT Y ard , in t h a t in s t a n c e th e r e w ou ld b e none r i s k ,
and wc a rc n o t to o c c r f o r t a b le a b o u t p u t t in g a man in charge
o - a t r a i n e r r ; a f t e r o n ly CO h o u rs o f work in t h i s v e r y
c o m p lic a te d com plex o f th r e e y a r d s and s c f o r t h . 3 u t t o
a c c o m o d a te th e Equal Em ployment O p p o r tu n ity A ct r e q u ir e m e n ts
t h a t t h e s e p e o p le b e g iv e n an o p p o r t u n it y , v e w i l l , w ith
a p p r o p r ia te s a f e g u a r d s , t r y t o l i v e w ith t h a t p r o c e d u r e . B ut
th e s i t u a t i o n a r i s e s w here a man i s in th e B arney Yard and he
h a s been th e r e two y e a r s , w h ich he h a s to b e , and he w a n ts t o
go o v e r and q u a l i f y ar c o n d u c to r in th e CT Y ard , and h e g o e s
o v e r and sp e n d s CO h o u rs th e r e and ta k e s th e exam and p a s s e s
i t . -lew, th e r e i s no im m ed ia te n eed fo r hi53 s e r v i c e s a s a
c o n d u c to r , ev en though ho h as p a s s e d t h i s c r a s h program to
q u a l i f y . He h a s h i s c h o ic e under th e m erged r o s t e r o f s t a y i n g
in th e CT Yard and w o rk in g as a brakem an. B ut he may be
w o rk in g n i g h t s , w eek en d s , and l e s s r e g u la r ly i f he s t a y s in
th e CT Yard as a brakem an as com pared w ith g o in g b ack t o t h e
B a m e y Yard w here lie h as g o t a d a y tim e jo b , in d o o r s , w ith
b e t t e r pay and s c f o r th than a h ig h e r rank w a i t in g t o ta k e th e
. l ig h t .r rank in ta e CT Y ard. £ c he g o e s b ack t o th e B arney
Yard and stcys? th e r e as lo n g a s s i x m onths w ith r.o s e r v i c e in
r j . e CT Yard a t a l l , o t t e r th a n t h i s t r a i n i n g p r o c r a n . hr.c
4
s u d d e n l y h e i n c u l l e d f o r t h e c o n d u c t o r ' a j c - h , a r i u t h e
R a i l r o a d C o m p a n y s a y s t h a t i t w o u l d b e a n e x t r e m e l y d a n g e r o u s
t i l i n g f o r s u c h a n u n t o b e p u t i n c h a r g e o f a t r a i n c r r . v ’ i t h
a i l t h e m o v e m e n t s a n d r e q u i r e m e n t s w h e n h e i s r u s t y b y s i x
m o n t h s a n d n e v e r h a s h a d t h e r e a l t r a i n i n g w h i c h t h e e v i c ' e n c e
s h o w s i s n e c e s s a r y f o r s u c h a n e m p l o y e e i n t h e C T Y a r d .
! 7 e h a v e p u t i n a r e q u i r e m e n t , p r o p o s e d t o t h a
C o u r t a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 4 , w h i c h i s s o m e w h a t s i m i l a r t o t i r e
t r a n s f e r o f b r a k e m e n f r o m t h e B a m e y Y a r d t o t h e C T Y a r d i n
l a n g u a g e , s a y i n g :
" I n i n s t a n c e s d e e m s d n e c e s s a r y b y i t ,
t h e C o m p a n y m a y r e q u i r e b r a k e m e n s o p r o m o t e d , '
t h e s e a r e t h e B a r n e y Y a r d b r a k e m e n w h o a r e p r o m o t e d
a f t e r t r a i n i n g , " t o q u a l i f y f o r t h e i r f i r s t s e r v i c e
a s C T Y a r d c o n d u c t o r s , o c c u r r i n g m o r e t h a : - . s i x
m o n t h s a f t e r p r o m o t i o n , o n l y w h e n s u c h p r o m o t e d
c o n d u c t o r s h a v e n o t w o r k e d a s b r a k e m e n i n t i l e C T
Y a r d s i n c e p r o m o t i o n , i n w h i c h c a s e s q u a l i f i c a t i o n
m a y c o n s i s t o f u p t o t h r e e m o n t h s ' s e r v i c e w i t h
p a y a s C T Y a r d b r a k e m e n . "
W e t p h i n k f o r s a f e t y r e a s o n s t h a t r e q u i r e m e n t
e s s e n t i a l t o t h e p r a c t i c a l o p e r a t i o n o f t h e R a i l w a y C o m p a n y ,
a n d t h a t i s , I t h i n k , t h e o n l y m a j o r d i f f e r e n c e w e h a v e o n
t i i e s u b j e c t o f t r a i n i n g a n d p r o m o t i o n .
T t 'L C O U R T : W e l l , l e t ' s s e e . I n t h e v a r i o u s
p e r i o d o f t h r e e rnonthrs a n d b e r>ai<! a t t h e r a t e o f a 1 r a ) : o ; M ; .; :
i s t h a t c c r r o r t ? T h r r , a 1
r c a l i za t h e C c u i— Vn a . . 1 U r a n t i
s a f c t y , b u t I z 3 ~ p l y q u e s
mon t h s n c r i c d n f t o r h e h a
o f t h e t e s t i r a n t h a t w a 3
a t l e a s t h o w t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e t r a n s f e r e e s b a c h a n d f o r t hi i
, ^ b e t w e e n t h e t w o y a r d s . T h e s a f e t y f a c t o r I d o n ' t q u a r r e l
I I!) . !
:' i a b o u t . T h e C o u r t h a s t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i t . ;i I
T H E C O U R T ; A l l r i g h t . M r . 3 e l t o n , i n y o u r j
i
d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h y o u r a s s o c i a t e s , I a m g o i n g t o t a k e s o m e
n o t i c e o f t h i s . I m a y t a k e t h e 1 0 0 , t h e t h r e e m o n t h s
t
q u a l i f y i n g p r o v i s i o n a s p r o p o s e d t o m e , o r 1 m i g n t c u t t h a t
d o w n . ' i n * - i n a n y p . v o n t t h e r e i s c e r t a i n r e a s o n a b l e n e s s i c
t h a t a r g u m e n t .
i
M R . W O R T H I N G T O N ; W e h a v e , a s w e s u g g e s t e d
e a r l i e r , M r . G l a s s w h o c o u l d e x p l a i n t h e m a t t e r s , b u c I a n
s u r e Y e a r H o n o r i s f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e way a r a i l r o a d w o r k s , i
f r o m y o u r o w n e x p e r i e n c e .
i
T H E C O U R T ; A s s o m e b o d y s a i d , i t i s a h e l l o f
a w a y t o r u n a r a i l r o a d . I r e m e m b e r t h a t .
M R . W O R T H I N G T O N j N o w , t h e t h i r d a n d l a s t
p o i n t w c h a v e , Y o u r h o n o r , i s o n t h e a t t o r n e y s f e e s . I t h i n k
t h a t t h e r e i s c o n s i d e r a b l e d i v e r g e n c e t h e r e . Y e a r h o n o r
c a ; r o i n t o t r y t h i s c a s e a f t e r s o m e o f t h e p r e t r i a l p r o c e d u r e s
7 1
IN Tin: IJNITliD STATUS DISTRICT COURT FOR
Tin: EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
Norfolk Divis ion
ROBERT ROCK, e t a l
)
v s - ) CIVIL ACTION No. 255-69-N
)
THE NORFOLK AND WESTERN RAILROAD )
COMPANY, e t a l )
I , W. FARLEY POWERS, J R . , Clerk o f the United S t a t e s
D i s t r i c t Court f o r the Eas tern D i s t r i c t o f V i r g in i a , do hereby
c e r t i f y t h a t the fo rego ing a re the o r i g i n a l papers and a t r u e
record o f the docket e n t r i e s in the a b o v e - s ty led cause .
IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF I he reun to s e t my hand and a f f i x
t. ie s e a l o f the s a i d c o u r t , a t Norfo lk , in s a i d d i s t r i c t , t h i s
29th day o f June , 1972.
certificate: of the clerk
W. FARLEY POWERS, J R . , Clerk
Deputy Clerk