Henry v. Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District Hearing of August 19, 1964

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI 
DELTA DIVISION

REBECCA E. HENRY, et al, )
)Plaintiffs, )
)v. ) CIVIL ACTION
)THE CLARKSDAtE MUNICIPAL SEPARATE ) NO. DC6428

SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, )
)

Proceedings had and evidence taken in the above-
entitled cause on the 19th day of August, 1964, at 10 a. m., 
in the United States District Court for the Northern 
District of Mississippi, Delta Division, at Oxford, 
Mississippi, before the Honorable Claude F. Clayton, United 
States District Judge.



APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiffs :

Derrick A. Bell, Jr., Esquire, 
10 Columbus Circle,
New York, New York,

and
R. Jess Brown, Esquire,
125 1/2 North Farish Street, 
Jackson, Mississippi.

For the Defendants:
Semmes Luckett, Esquire,
121 Yazoo Avenue,
Clarksdale, Mississippi,

and
William H. Maynard, Esquire, 
Stevens Building,
Clarksdale, Mississippi.



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THE COURT: You may be seated.
Will you announce your appearances for the

benefit of the record, please?
MR. BELL: For the plaintiffs, your Honor,

Derrick Bell, and local counsel, R. Jess Brown, is due up on 
a plane this morning. He hasn't arrived, but I expect he 
will shortly, and, with your permission, I should like to go 
ahead until he does arrive.

Municipal Separate School District and Mr. Tynes, the 
Superintendent, and the members of the Board of Trustees, 
and Mr. W. H. Maynard for the Board of Trustees of the

THE COURT: All right.
MR. LUCKETT: Semmes Luckett for the Clarksdale

Coahoma County Board of Education and Mr. Paul Hunter,
Ik r■*. — -r •County Superintendent of Education.

THE COURT: All right.
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call them around and let them be sworn?



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MR. LUCKETT: We will use Mr. Tynes, please.
If the Court please, may I make a statement at

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this time?

THE COURT: You may.
MR. JLUCKETT: As I understand it, we are here

today on the question of the plans submitted by the 
Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, as to whether 
those plans or any one of them would be approved, and also 
on the objections filed by the plaintiffs in the case, and, 
as I understand it, the problem is to develop the plan under 
which we are to proceed with the operation of the schools.

I make that statement because the attorney for the
plaintiffs on yesterday indicated that perhaps later on he

\might want to choose to bring in some testimony to attack
the plan that we will have under consideration today, and if

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that is the situation we would like to know at the present 
time whether that is what he intends to do because, if we
understand it, this is the day for the hearing of this,\these particular plans.

THE COURT: This is the day for the hearing on the\Vv: •, ' v \
plans submitted by the Board of Trustees to deal with the 
question of which one of these plans, if any, will be put 
into effect as an interim measure until we can have a full



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\hearing on the merits of the matter and thus arrive at a 
permanent solution of the problem.

I am assuming, perhaps erroneously, that counsel 
for plaintiffs had in mind that before any so-called 
permanent plan could go into effect that he then might wish 
to offer additional evidence.

Is that correct?
MR. BELL: You assume correctly, your Honor.
We would just point out certain objections to the 

Court's adoption of any of these plans as even an interim 
measure today, with the idea of looking forward toward a 
final hearing in this case, in which further testimony would 
be developed on the plans as submitted by the Board.

THE COURT: Does that answer your question,
Mr. Luckett?

MR. LUCKETT: It is our position, if the Court
please, that the testimony with reference to the conditions 
as they exist today, that is, on August the 19th, 1964, 
should be developed today.

Now, I see no fairness in requiring us to go
ahead with our proof if then the counsel for the plaintiffs\. . f . * ? ■is not prepared to meet the issue today.

Now, I know that even in our plan we retained the



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right to change our boundary lines, so to speak, if

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conditions which hereafter develop require those changes, 
and, of course, I know that nothing can be done to foreclose 
the right to question facts that may hereafter develop, but 
insofar as this hearing is concerned today I think the proof 
in support of hib objections or in consideration of these 
particular plans that we have before the Court ought to be 
introduced today and hot done in piecemeal.

THE COURT: Of course, we have taken the first two
steps in the only logical w^y they could have been taken,
that is, the Court dealt with the temporary-injunction\aspects broadly on briefs at an earlier date and directed 
the School Board to come up with a\plan that would 
accomplish the requirements set forth, in that order as of 
the beginning of school this fall.

At this time the Court is concerned only with
working a solution out as an interim proposition to meet the\\exigencies as they exist at this time. \

Even if I wanted to, I could not closek the door to 
a continuing jurisdiction with respect to the subject matter 
of this case, --

MR. LUCKETT: We appreciate that, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- and as the matter further develops

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either or both sides certainly will have free access to the 
Court to present any new situation that may have arisen, and 
I would not undertake to say the Court would ever be in a 
position to make what might be called a final determination 
of all of the issues involved in this matter without a full 
and complete hearing on the merits, which I anticipate will 
be later, when the construction that I am advised is under 
way shall have been finished and the situation fully 
developed, so that we then can undertake to come up with 
what might be called a permanent plan; but at this time 
we're concerned with the pressure of the situation time- 
wise, and I could not at this time undertake to say that 
either side, plaintiffs or defendants, would be foreclosed 
in any way from offering such proof as later may becomeV\
relevant to the issues involved. \

MR. LUCKETT: We understand thdt any new situation
can be inquired into. That's our understanding of the\situation, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir.
MR. LUCKETT: Mr. Tynes, will you take the

witness stand?



GYCELLE TYNES,
a defendant, called by and in behalf of the defendants and 
in his own behalf, having been first duly sworn, testified 
as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
By Mr. Luckett:

Q Is this Mr. Gycelle Tynes?
A Yes.

THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Luckett.
I might point out to counsel that there is a map

board
Oh, yes. You have a map on it already, I see.
MR. LUCKETT: Yes.
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
MR. LUCKETT: And we can move it.
We just left it there -- 
THE COURT: All right, sir.
MR. LUCKETT: -- until your Honor decided where

you wanted it.
THE COURT: When it becomes necessary to refer to

the map, it probably should be moved out here where the 
witness can see it and I can see it and counsel can see it. 

MR. LUCKETT: All right, sir.
P<5 e

*  y jw H & B U Q  ^  / o  f i o i t  !Y ]  YYlJYU t



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By Mr. Luckett:
Q This is Mr. Gycelle Tynes?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Tynes, you are the Superintendent of Schools 

of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, are 
you not?

A Yes.
Q How long have you had that position, sir?
A Since July the 1st of 1960.
Q You are one of the defendants in this lawsuit?
A Yes.
Q And you are one of the defendants who have been 

directed by the Court to come up with a plan or plans for 
the desegregation of the schools of the Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District, are you not?

A I am.
Q Mr. Tynes, did you participate in the drawing of

those plans?
A I did.
Q In conjunction with the School Board?
A Right.
Q And when we refer to "School Board" we're talking 

about the Board of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal



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Separate School District, --
A Yes.
Q -- are we not?
A Right.
Q And when we are talking about the School District 

we are talking about the Municipal Separate School District?
A Of Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q And let us get this clear at this point,

Mr. Tynes.
The boundaries of the Clarksdale Municipal 

Separate School District coincide with the boundaries of the 
City of Clarksdale, do they not?

A They are coterminous.
Q The Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District

has no added territory, as we speak of it in Mississippi?
A It has not.
Q Now, Mr. Tynes, when was work begun on the plan

or plans which are now before the Court for its 
consideration?

A These proceedings were filed in late April. I 
received my summons April the 24th. As soon, of course, as 
we were made parties defendant in the case the School Board 
immediately went into session, employed Mr. Luckett as



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counsel and, of course, began work on various plans.
Q Well, what was the first thing that was done, sir?
A As I recall, the first thing which we did was 

simply to listen to the counsel from you, in which you 
explained to me and the $chool Board that hereafter or 
thereafter no reference in our budgets, in our budgets of 
operation, budgets of construction -- that no reference to 
race could be made in any of these official documents.

Furthermore, you advised defendants that in all of 
their pursuit in the attainment of the educational 
objectives of the School District that all procedures and 
all operations, all actions would have to be completed on 
a nonracial basis.

We immediately, of course, accepted that counsel 
and put it into effect.

Q Well, now, for instance, the racial designations 
-- have they disappeared from the records of the school?

A Completely so. I
Q Insofar as your budget designations for different

races, have they disappeared from your school records?
A Completely so.
Q Insofar as your construction plans, -- and I

understand you do have some construction plans --



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A Right.
Q -- have they been developed without consideration

of race?
A They have.
Q What about the biracial -- compulsory biracial

system?
A You advised defendants that henceforth it was no 

longer permissible or legally possible to operate biracially 
a segregated school or a biracially operated school.

Q Well, were discussions had with reference to that 
matter -- about a change-over from the way the schools had 
been theretofore operated and the way they were to be 
operated in the future?

A You advised the defendants that hereafter, of 
course, within the limitations placed upon the School 
District and upon the defendants, of course, in this case, 
even though they hadn't been in court, that completely there 
could be no references to race in any of the operations of 
the school, but within these broad limitations set forth by 
the court, since the Brown case, that the School Board would 
have to find plans which it could pursue and implement which 
would still bring about the greatest educational welfare of 
the children and, of course, the greatest economic welfare



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of the schools in the School District.
Those two functions, of course, were set forth 

under the law, which guided the School Board and the School 
Superintendent.

Now, you further advised that any -- well, that 
many different approaches have been made to the solution of 
the problem such as the defendants faced and that these 
solutions, of course, were predicated naturally upon local 
conditions obtaining in the various school districts that 
had undergone a confrontation with these issues and problems 
over the nation, and, of course, each community, you advised 
us, is entitled to come up with a solution which is best 
fitted perhaps in a peculiar way to its own needs, its own 
conditions.

Q Were you advised that that solution must be such 
as could secure the approval of the Court under the 
desegregation decisions of the Supreme Court of the United 
States?

A We were so advised.
Q Well, did you consider some different plans that 

you had heard about?
A We did.

We took in note, of course, a number of plans that



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were in operation by schools which had undergone, of course, 
encountered, these problems.

Of course, we had an example close by in Jackson, 
the Jackson-Biloxi-Leake County case, in which a plan had 
been presented to the court concerning -- in fact, I would 
call it -- a free choice or an open-choice situation, in 
which any pupil actually could express his intent or desire 
or wish to attend any school in the total district at his 
grade and level. Of course, proximity to the school and 
other factors perhaps would enter in, --

Q Did you
A -- but that would be more or less an assignment 

and transfer plan.
Q Were the different transfer arrangements that had 

been adopted by different school districts discussed also, 
sir?

A They were discussed by the Board.
Now, of course, we were advised and we had access 

to records which indicated that any reasonable criterion, 
such as ability, aptitude, achievement, perhaps even sex, 
any reasonable factor or criterion which is not predicated 
upon race or color or religion or national origin, -- in 
other words, so far as no discrimination -- has been found



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to be, of course, acceptable to the courts.
Of course, now, that sort of thing would, in our 

case, inevitably lead to what we would choose to call, well, 
geographical districting, in which we, of course, would seek 
to eliminate a lot of the recurring problems, sometimes 
called a neighborhood school district and plan.

Q What do you understand by the neighborhood school 
plan, Mr. Tynes?

A Well, the neighborhood school plan is simply a 
time-honored and a time-tested method of dividing school 
districts into attendance zones where you have more pupils 
than can be accommodated in one school, by which a pupil 
living in those particular attendance zones attend the 
school, of course, at their grade level in their own home 
zone.

Q Do you mean by that that there would be an 
attendance area set up and that everybody in that particular 
area, regardless of his race, creed or color, national 
origin, could go to that particular school?

A That is correct. That is correct.
This is no new concept on the American educational 

scene, public school scene. In fact, it's time-honored and
time-tested.



Q To a limited extent, that is, insofar as on a 
biracial basis, has that been more or less the plan that has 
been followed in Clarksdale since you know of?

A Absolutely.
Throughout the 60-year history of the public 

school system in Clarksdale, of course, that system was 
followed, the neighborhood school concept, but up until we 
were advised in late April by you as our counsel, of course, 
it had been on a biracial basis.

Q Well, actually, as I --
A Now, there was one short interim period in which, 

of course, the State Legislature required us to go to an 
assignment basis, and we did two or three -- about three 
years ago, for an interim period, had to move to an 
assignment basis, simply on, you might say, orders or 
instruction from the State Legislature.

Q Well, with the exception of that three-year 
period, you would say that throughout the history of the 
Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District we have had 
the neighborhood plan, except then we had it on a biracial 
basis?

A That is correct.

Q And now we understand that we have to discard the



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biracial basis?
A Absolutely.
Q All right.

Were a number of plans discussed before you came 
up to a conclusion as to what plan would best suit the 
interests of the school children of Clarksdale?

A That is correct.
In fact, throughout this 10-year active period -- 

indeed, many years before this Brown case came on in 1954 - 
school men at national conferences, the association, the 
American Association of School Administrators, and other 
professional groups had been looking at all the problems 
inherent in multiracial schools.

Of course, we had it in a limited way in 
Clarksdale with quite a few Chinese pupils there.

Well, now, the schools in our territory have, of 
course, had Mexicans and Chinese alike. Our neighboring 
district has quite a colony of Indians; in fact, very close 
to us in a neighboring or adjoining district.

So, these plans have, of course, been discussed 
professionally for years and years.

I might say also just here that when the decision 
came on 10 years ago this past May many school men over



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especially the border zone of the South went into this with 
great enthusiasm, of course, on a voluntary basis. They 
believed, of course, in desegregation, that integration 
would work. They were eager, of course, to get along with 
it.

Now, in weighing these various plans and measures 
that have been, of course, projected by various districts 
over the nation, our School Board and I, myself, were 
concerned with finding a plan which would enable us to stay 
out of court.

We are not called, of course -- we're not 
professional litigants in any sense of the term. We school 
people are professional school men and, of course, we feel 
oddly out of place in a courtroom. This, of course, is not 
the sort of thing that we're professionally trained for; of 
course, have never even been called upon to consider until 
these problems have come on.

Now, in the weighing of these plans, the 
defendants were concerned about finding a plan which would 
enable this School Board, its administrative officers and 
its instructional staff to get on with the business of 
carrying out the instructional program of that community.

Now, we wanted a plan which would enable us to get



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out of court and stay out of court.
We recognize in this sort of thing there's going 

to be, of course, sacrifice. We know that people will get 
hurt. Property values are going to be affected and 
disturbed and things of that sort.

We recognize further, of course, that even this 
whole movement of integration is open to great question, and 
some of the broadest and deepest minds in America are 
profoundly disturbed about its implications, sociologically, 
psychologically, and the very trauma that the act of 1954 
sought to relieve children from may even be accentuated 
according to the testimony of some of the profound scholars 
of this nation.

But, be those things as they may, the defendants 
had no choice, no alternative, no option but to come up with 
a plan which simply would meet the criterion of the cases, 
of the newly passed Civil Rights Act and all other applying 
court decisions and legislation at the national level in 
order to let us do the thing for our children that's a full­
time task within itself -- educating our boys and girls in 
this, the twentieth century. Consequently, if we find 
ourselves constantly in litigation, we're going to fail at 
our function, in our trust, in our commitment to the task,



for these boys and girls.
Now, with these factors in mind, I come back to 

say that it would be inevitable that we come up with a 
neighborhood school plan, time-honored and time-tested.

Q Well, now, explain to the Court why, say, a 
neighborhood school plan would be more or less self­
executing in connection with not only the original, but 
permanent assignment of pupils to the schools.

A Yes.
Q Why would it be that?
A Well, I have indicated, of course, that the 

neighborhood school plan is what I would call indigenous to 
public education in America. It's just as native to this 
land as the cottonwood trees in the Delta. Consequently, we 
have this as a criterion or a standard or as a guideline to, 
of course, guide us in our thinking.

Now, if one looks at a map of Clarksdale, he can 
immediately see how the geographical layout of the city 
lends itself almost ideally to the implementation of a 
neighborhood school plan.

If you will look at the map, as, of course, we will 
in a short while, you will see that a railroad running from 
the northeasterly direction toward the southwesterly



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direction, but running in a straight line, divides the city 
into approximately two equal zones or halves; and, now, 
there's, of course, another railroad line which runs to the 
southward there and further divides the city, the southern 
portion of the city, roughly into two halves.

Now, of course, we have a river, the Sunflower 
River, which runs in a southerly direction, of course, from 
a northerly source, which divides the city somewhat in an 
easterly and westerly direction.

So, we have more or less these natural quadrants 
in the city, and now across the years, the 60-year history 
of the public schools of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate 
School District, the Board of Trustees has sought to locate 
its schools in the neighborhoods most accessible, where the 
children would be, of course, most accessible to the given 
school, itself.

It's true that on occasion it would be impossible 
to secure assignment without simply an exorbitant price in 
an area where development had suddenly occurred, and 
sometime, of course, a site would have to be placed a little 
further from a geographic center than the School Board would 
have preferred, but those things occur in every community.

Now, the high schools, both the senior high and



the junior high, and the elementary schools are located 
throughout the city in these various areas and zones just 
mentioned.

Q Now, to get back to the plan, itself, as I 
understand it, where these attendance areas and zones are 
drawn

And the whole town is divided into attendance 
areas and zones, --

A Yes.
Q -- is it not, Mr. Tynes?
A Yes.
Q Well, where they are drawn, then whoever lives in 

that district, whatever pupil lives in that district, 
regardless of race, creed or color or national origin, will 
have to go to the school in that particular attendance 
area,

A The School Board --
Q —  that is, with the exception of those two areas, 

which we will discuss later, where schools are to be built?
A Right.

The School Board and its administrative officers 
were completely color blind in the drawing and preparing of 
these various subdistricts and attendance zones.

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Q Let me get to this thing --
A They are the boundaries --
Q Let me get to this question first. I am talking 

about the self-executing quality of the neighborhood school 
plan, itself, how it gets you out of these problems about 
assignments and transfers and what-not.

Isn’t every child required to go to the school for 
his particular district?

A Absolutely.
I have administered school systems -- in fact, 

while I was Superintendent in Biloxi we had what I would 
call an ironbound neighborhood school zone system. Of 
course, at that time it was on a biracial basis.

Now, the Board of Trustees in its policies allowed 
no pupil --no pupil -- and throughout my tenure there not 
one pupil ever crossed the boundaries of his attendance 
zone. In fact, it was unthinkable. Consequently, we had no 
transfer problems. We had no assignment problems. We had 
none of these festering-sore situations in which the time of 
the administrative officer is taken up trying to appease 
this patron or that patron or the other. You just don't 
have them. You get on with the task of administering
schools.



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Q Is that written into this plan, about the no­
transfer provision from one area to another area?

A It is written into all four plans which have been
submitted to this Court, and, of course, we expect no 
deviation.

Q Now, as I understand it, the School District has 
been divided into senior high school zones, two in number, 
junior high school zones, two in number, -- not zones; I 
should say subdistricts -- and four elementary subdistricts.

Now, did you participate in the drawing of those
lines?

A I did.
May I say one further word?
In the drawing of these subdistricts and 

attendance zones within the subdistricts this School Board 
was guided and its administrative officers by only one 
criterion: What is best for all the pupils?

Now, these zones would have been drawn the same 
way -- these subdistricts would have been drawn the same 
way -- if there were but one race in Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District.

We were color-blind.
Q Supposing --



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A This thing, of course, is going to be rugged. No 
question about it.

Q Supposing there were mixed districts throughout 
Clarksdale, say with every other house being white and every 
other house being colored; would you have still drawn the 
lines as you have drawn them?

A We would have still had to have drawn them the 
same way.

Q Why is that, Mr. Tynes?
A Simply because we were following what we would 

call more or less natural boundary lines, and, of course, we 
were setting up criteria there to utilize our buildings to 
full capacity. We were concerned, of course, about 
accessibility to children, to safety and to health, and the 
possible hazards and the like, seeking to avoid those and 
the like. We were concerned about the total welfare of all 
the children in our School District, and, of course, -- I 
repeat -- this thing has taken sacrifice.

Well, now, do you have the maps before the Court,
Mr. Tynes?

A We do have them here on an adjacent bulletin 
board.

MR. LUCKETT: Judge, may we move that?



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THE COURT: Just move the map board on out.
Maybe you can straighten it up a little more in 

order to have it so counsel can see it.
MR. BELL: i'll come around.
THE COURT: All right.
By Mr. Luckett:

Q Mr. Tynes, I see on the map a red line. Is that 
the line of the railroad you have been referring to?

A This is a railroad which runs from Bobo to Lyon, 
from Lyon to Bobo, Mississippi, and, of course, it just 
about bisects the School District equally.

Q Yes.
Insofar as the area of the town is concerned, does 

it just about divide the town into half?
MR. BELL: Excuse me. Could I, for a second,

state for the purposes of the record --
Could we possibly identify which of these?
And perhaps you would like to introduce them.
MR. LUCKETT: All right, sir.
By Mr. Luckett:

Q Is that the exact duplicate of Map Number 1 which 
is on.file with the Court, sir?

A This is an exact duplicate of Map Number 1, which,



of course, sets forth the senior high school subdistricts 
and the senior high attendance zones, which actually are 
coterminous.

Q And it is an exact duplicate of Map Number 1 -- 
A It is a duplicate -- 
Q -- which is on file with the Court?
A Right.

-- of Map Number 1.
Q And would you say about half of the area of 

Clarksdale is south of that line and about half north of 
that line?

A I think it's readily discernible to any spectator 
that this line virtually bisects equally the School District 
in the Municipal Separate School District of Clarksdale.

Q There are, of course, children north of that line 
and there are children south of that line, --

A Correct.
Q -- are there not, sir?
A Right.

There are residential areas in both sections of
the city.

Q Are there more south of that line than there are 
north of that line?

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A Slightly more children. Slightly more children 
south than in the north.

Q Now, we do have at least two parochial schools 
north of that line, do we not, sir?

A Right.
There are two parochial schools patronized at 

present by white children only.
Those two parochial schools enroll approximately, 

I would say, 400 pupils, white pupils.
Q Are they patronized mostly by children north of 

that line?
A It is my understanding that the pupils who

patronize those two schools primarily live in the zone or 
area north of this railroad line running from Lyon to Bobo; 
that's correct.

Q Now, there is a parochial school south of that 
line, too, is there not?

A There is one, the Immaculate Conception, over
here.

That is right.
It is patronized, I believe, principally or 

exclusively by Negro pupils at present.
Q They come mostly from the district south?



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A Principally from south of the railroad. Possibly 
a few -- there's a few from north.

Q All right, sir.
You say there are more children, slightly more 

children, south of the railroad than there are north of the 
railroad?

A Yes.
Q Will you explain to the Court the prospect of the 

population growth in Clarksdale and where the greatest 
growth in Clarksdale is occurring?

A At the present time the greatest growth 
residentially in Clarksdale is in this westward area. In 
fact, this whole area within the corporate limits is rapidly 
filling up at the present time.

Now, there is some residential growth in the 
southeastern area, along in here.

Of course, there is scattered growth over the 
city, but far and away the preponderance of the residential 
growth and development for some years has been in this 
western sector of the city.

Q Now, is it a part of town that is anticipating an
almost immediate expansion and growth?

A Well, this area is going to soon develop. Within



31

two or three years it's going to simply be just about totally 
developed. It's striking out here to the sixteenth section 
now, which is going to completely barricade or block further 
expansion in that direction.

Now, the business and commercial area of 
Clarksdale, downtown Clarksdale, is centered in this 
particular spot.

Q That's the spot we would say is bounded on the 
west by the Sunflower River, --

A It is.
Q -- on the north by First Street, --
A Right.
Q -- on the east by Desoto Avenue --
A Right.
Q -- and on the south by this railroad line --
A Right.
Q -- that we are referring to?
A That's right.

Now, this business and commercial district is 
quite adjacent to all of this land out in here that is 
undeveloped.

Now, for a long while --
Right at this point is a creek, Mill Creek. In



fact, it runs all along -- it strikes Sunflower down here, 
but it runs all along -- this northeasterly boundary of the 
city.

For a long, long time the only access from out 
here to the city, to the business and commercial area of 
Clarksdale, has been through one road, this road coming in 
here from Friars Point, with a branch coming in here from 
Lyon.

Now, recently Desoto Avenue has been extended.
This Mill Creek has an approach 23 or 30 feet in 

depth constructed across there.
This Desoto Avenue now is extended -- in fact, 

this map doesn't show it, but it has gone up here in a 
circumference, and all the way back over here, simply making 
an interior circumference around the city.

Now, with this broad street being opened up, -- 
the gravel has already been placed and compacted; paving, I 
am sure, will start in just a matter of days at the most -- 
this street immediately makes the downtown section of 
Clarksdale immediately accessible to all of this area.

May I point out one other thing simply as a 
somewhat relative newcomer to Clarksdale, but still one who 
has known the town for 15 years: This area in western

32



Clarksdale was developed by a big landholder, King and 
Anderson, and I would say some of the most intelligent city 
planning I have seen in America was carried out here.

The land up in this area is primarily held by the 
Clark family, the family for whom the City of Clarksdale was 
actually named. Nobody has told me this in so many words, 
but it is common knowledge in our city that the Clark 
family, this proud heritage and proud name, is going to be 
just as anxious for its development in here to equal the 
King and Anderson development or perhaps to even surpass it.

Now, with this street opening up, housing out in 
here has simply gotten under way.

I suppose there are 30 or more units already under 
construction here.

We have three huge church sites -- one at this 
point; one at this point; another at this whole corner -- 
that have been purchased -- the Catholic Church here, the 
First Christian Church on one of the other sites and -- 

Q They are going to build the biggest Catholic 
Church in Mississippi right there?

A That is my understanding. It will be constructed 
on a 30-acre plot in this corner -- in this triangle right

33

here.



34

Of course, other churches will go up right here.
Consequently, this whole northeastern sector of 

town, the real estate folks tell me, is in for a huge 
expansion, what they call a huge plan.

So, this will naturally become the fastest growing 
section of Clarksdale just within a matter of months or a 
year or two, I would say, at the most.

Q So, would you tell the Court that it is reasonable 
to anticipate that in a matter of just a year or so that 
there will be just as many pupils north of that railroad 
line as there are south of that railroad line?

A The real estate folks tell me that within a very 
few years -- and, of course, they have engaged, along with 
the municipal authorities in Clarksdale, planning agencies, 
looking at what the city will be like 10 years from now, 20 
years from now and the like, and they advise me -- of 
course, I have to know where residential development is 
going to occur in order to advise the School Board on it, 
but they tell me within just a matter of a few years at the 
most the preponderance of population in the city will move 
into this area.

I would say, without question, without hesitation, 
that your pupil population in the area north of this line



will soon equal and thereafter, of course, continue to 
exceed in an accelerating fashion the development south of 
the railroad.

Q Now, Mr. Tynes, before this plan was developed, 
did you take into consideration or make a survey of the 
school facilities of Clarksdale?

A We have done so.
Q Of the School District?
A We have done so.
Q All right.

Now, we're talking now about the senior high 
subdistricts, are we not?

A Yes.
Q All right.
A This is the senior high.
Q How many senior high school facilities do we have 

in the district?
A We have two in the entire School District.
Q All right.
A We have one --
Q Is one of them located north of the line?
A One of them is located north of this line and one

is located south; that is correct.

35



36

Q Is the facility that is located north of the line
/adequate to take care of the pupils north of the line?

A It is at present.
Q Is the facility that is located south of the line 

adequate to take care of the pupils?
A It is at present.
Q I am speaking now of the high school pupils south 

of the line.
A That is correct.
Q All right, sir.

Is there anything further you want to say about 
the high school --

A Just one further word.
Now, the Court will notice here that we have the 

two subdistricts, one and two, and the attendance zone in 
each subdistrict is coterminous with its subdistrict.

Now, the purpose for that is simply this:
Planning authorities which have worked in our city and 
School District tell us that within 10 or 15 years, if the 
expected growth materializes, that soon we will need to have 
a second high school in the north area and perhaps shortly 
thereafter need a second one south. Consequently, we're 
coming here not with 1964. As the School Board has



37

previously stated, the defendants in this case do not desire 
to be coming back to court. We don't want that to be a 
recurring thing. Consequently, we're looking at 1974, and 
even 1984, and, so, we're attempting to lay out something 
here to which the wise and prudent may repair with utter 
confidence that this thing is a cure-all; it's something 
which meets the criteria of the courts, the criteria of the 
Civil Rights Act recently, of course, signed into effect, 
and this would enable, of course, the community, the school 
authorities, the Board of Trustees to get on with this 
important business of public education.

Q Now, does this plan, every plan that has been 
submitted to the Court -- is it envisioned that every senior 
high school student north of the line go to the senior high 
school north of the line --

A It does.
Q -- and every senior high school pupil south of the 

line go to the senior high school south of the line?
A It does.
Q Would you tell the Court something about the

condition of, we'll say, the senior high school south of the 
line?

A The senior high school south of the line at present



is a joint junior-senior high school. It was constructed, 
the initial units, in the early 1950s. Later units have 
been added at, I would say, a frequency of about every three 
years. In fact, the second unit is now being completed 
which has been done during my brief administration in the 
city.

Now, this school is located on a fairly ample 
campus. It has a facility close by which formerly belonged 
-- well, it belonged, I believe, to possibly a Negro 
American Legion post. I'm not certain about that, but I 
know that it was named the Negro Community Park or something 
of that sort and may still bear that name here, and later on 
it is my understanding that facility was taken over by the 
city, itself.

Our School Board has recently, after having 
discussed the matter for several years informally, requested 
of the city administration, the municipal authorities, that 
most of that area be simply transferred to the ownership and 
custody of the Board of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District, which, of course, would greatly 
enlarge the campus of that facility.

We've been wanting to develop it for several 
years. We've had plans -- in fact, we have funds budgeted

38



right now -- for a considerable development in that area, 
and, of course, we could not do it when we did not have 
clear title to it. It would have been a misuse of funds.
But we expect, of course, that to be consummated speedily.

Q Has a recent addition been put to that building?
A We have an addition which is being completed at 

the present time. In fact, it's scheduled for completion 
within the next 10 days.

Q That's about a hundred-thousand-dollar addition?
A Slightly over. About a hundred and six thousand.
Q Well, would you say that is a modern, up-to-date 

facility?
A We have had many visitors visit this plant. We 

have been told by leading educational authorities not only 
in the state, but in the South we have some facilities here 
in the homemaking area, in possibly the shop areas, in the 
library, different ones, which are on an equal with any that 
they have seen in the South.

The School Board is color-blind when it builds 
schoolhouses. It always has been --

Q All right, sir.
A --in modern years.

39

All right, sir.



A May I say one further word here?
Q Certainly.
A Right adjacent to this high school has been

constructed an 18-classroom elementary school, which we have 
never called an elementary school. We simply call it the 
George H. Oliver School.

Now, back of the long-range plan there, our 
Assistant Superintendent, who works, of course, for the 
schools in this area -- we have had in mind from the 
beginning that sooner or later that plant would simply be 
converted into a junior high facility. In fact, that's been 
the thinking and the planning all the way through, but our 
senior high has not yet reached the point where we can 
economically, educationally and feasibly divide our schools. 
The senior high will approach that in the next two or three 
or four years.

For a long time the holding power of the secondary 
schools greatly diminished around the eighth and ninth 
grade. Now, in the last two or three or four years, we have 
seen this holding power be greatly strengthened. 
Consequently, with this increasing enrollment at the senior 
high level, we know it's just simply a matter of two or 
three or four years we will be converting this entire plant

40



41

-- well, the George H. Oliver plant -- into a junior high 
plant, and, of course, it's so designed.

Q What about the condition of the high school 
facility that's north of the railroad line?

A Well, the senior high school facility is some 34 
or 35 years of age. It's a fairly well constructed 
building. It has had some, of course, foundation problem, 
especially on the north side. Considerable, I'd say, 
shoring up, even to the point of setting up underground 
cantilevers with counterweights and the like, has had to be 
added there; but it's still, of course, in service. In 
fact, it's the best building we have located on that campus.

Now, you go over across the street into the junior 
high buildings -- the newest junior high building is some -- 
it's between 45 and 50 years of age, and, of course, old age 
is beginning to show on it.

Now, a second junior high building there is 
pushing on up between 50 and 60 years of age.

Actually, three years ago the School Board 
partially renovated the newer of these two facilities. At 
that time the School Board had its architects and engineers 
look at the older plant, 10-classroom plant, and, frankly, 
they had to just back off. It had reached a point of no



42

return, where further improvements and renovations and the 
like there could not be justified simply because the 
building, I would say, in its educational dotance -- in 
fact, just as a building -- it's just out. Consequently, 
the School Board wants to make away with that older building 
at the first opportunity. In fact, soon the grand jury, of 
course, may compel it to do so. In fact, we've had the 
grand jury look several times at these facilities, and one 
time for an entire year we had one unit condemned, the band 
room there over the boiler-mechanical room, in which we had 
to vacate it for an entire year while we made repairs to it 
which satisfied the grand jury.

Q Of course, you were talking about the building
north

A Right.
Q --of the line?
A That was north of this line; that's right.
Q Let's take this tack out, Mr. Tynes, and turn 

over and put it back on these other maps down here.
Is this Map Number 2 that's identical to Map 

Number 2 that is on file in this case?
A It is.
Q What does it refer to?



43

A The junior high subdistricts and, of course, the 
junior high attendance zones, which, as in the case of the 
senior high, are coterminous with each other.

Zone Number 1 is coterminous with Subdistrict 1, 
and the same is true for Number 2.

Q Now, everything you said insofar as the senior 
high school subdistrict and the senior high school 
attendance zone applies to the junior high school 
subdistrict --

A That is correct.
Q -- and the junior high school attendance zone?
A That is right.
Q And you have discussed the condition of the 

facilities for both the junior high and the senior high?
A I have.
Q As I understand it, there is ample facility here 

in the facilities south of the line to take care of the 
junior high pupils who live south of this line?

A That is correct at the present time.
Q And the same thing is true north of the line?
A That's true at the present time.
Q Is there anything further we need to say about

that?



44

A Of course, we have again the same situation here 
in which 10 or 15 years hence we envision that the 
subdistrict will be further subdivided into attendance zones 
as growth makes it necessary and possible.

Q Mr. Tynes, has the town or School District been 
divided into elementary school subdistricts?

A It has.
Q Will you please explain to the Court the boundary 

lines of those particular subdistricts?
A We have here again this basic line, which bisects 

the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, the 
railroad --

Q Just a minute, Mr. Tynes.
A Yes.
Q This is Map Number 3, is it not?
A This is Map Number 3.
Q And it is identical with Map Number 3 --
A It is identical with Map Number 3 --
Q -- on file with the Court?
A -- of the elementary school subdistricts; that is 

correct.
Q All right, sir. Go ahead.
A Looking at this boundary line again, Lyon to Bobo,



it's readily discernible that the railroad which branches 
off roughly at a 90-degree angle from this railroad simply 
divides the pupil population virtually into equal halves.

Now, that enables, of course, the School District 
to have two elementary subdistricts, one at this point and 
two at this area, to take care of all the area south of this 
railroad running from Lyon to Bobo.

Of course, the railroad running from Clarlcsdale to 
Tutwiler makes this second division.

Now, if the School Board, of course, had been 
concerned about a short-range plan, an interim plan, or 
something of the sort, instead of a long-range plan, the 
Board would have been justified in simply viewing all this 
as one attendance zone; but, for reasons previously 
mentioned here by this witness, this area is about to 
undergo a tremendous explosion or expansion. Consequently, 
the School Board, taking full knowledge of this imminent 
expansion, came in with what I would call a natural 
boundary, using the river at the south and, of course, at 
this point the western limits of the city, and divided the 
area north of this Lyon-Bobo railroad into two subdistricts, 
Subdistrict 3 and Subdistrict 4.

Q Now, with the exception of the boundary line of

45



46

Clarksdale, of course, of which there is nothing artificial 
about it, are all the boundary lines of these subdistricts 
composed of rivers or railroads?

A They are.
Had the Board been thinking of a short-range plan, 

it could have gone here and taken a section line and made 
it, divided it, into equal halves, or relatively so, but the 
Board is looking to the long-range plan. Of course, it went 
to the most natural boundary that it had, of course, in that 
area.

Q Now, do we call on our plan this the southeast 
district, attendance subdistrict?

A That's right.
Q Southeast?
A Southeast in this area.
Q Southwest?
A Southwest here.
Q Northeast?
A Northeast here.
Q And northwest?
A And the northwest here.

Of course, we further number them Subdistrict E-l, 
"E" standing for "elementary", -- of course, one in the



47

southeastern subdistrict -- E-2, E-3 and E-4.
Q Well, in this Elementary Subdistrict 1, which is 

in the southeast quadrant of Clarksdale, how many elementary 
schools are there now at present?

A We have three elementary schools.
I think that's shown perhaps more effectively on 

the next map.
Q All right, sir.

How many do you have in this southwest quadrant? -
A We have one school at present.

We have another under construction now.
Q All right.

Where is that other one to be constructed?
A It is to be constructed right at this point, right 

at this population center, and, of course, we expect some 
day that expansion will occur in here and leave this school 
centrally located in here.

Q Now, you are pointing now at a spot immediately 
west of Washington Street, are you not?

A Right. South of Walnut extended, in here, in this 
corner.

Q What size tract is that?
A We have eight acres, and, of course, completely



48

utilizable.

Q All right, sir.
Has a contract been let for the construction --

A It has been.

Q -- at that place?
A It has been.

Q Has work begun?
Has the contractor --

A The contractor has moved onto the job and, of
course, has work under way.

Q When will that building be completed, according to
the construction contract?

A The contract calls for this building to be 
completed before Christmas.

Q All right, sir.
Now, are there any elementary schools in this

northwest quadrant?
A We have three elementary schools.

Q Just as you have in the southeast --
A Right.

Q -- quadrant?
A Right.

Q Are there any elementary schools in the northeast



49

quadrant?
A We have none in here.

Of course, this is chiefly business and commercial 
area in here, and just now, of course, expansion is about to 
take place.

The school does have an old site right here that 
it has had for some years, but it's hardly ample.

The School Board has made feasibility studies of 
a much larger tract of land. It's had its engineers and 
architects to make reports on it.

Of course, negotiations are well advanced toward 
purchasing this site.

Q That's a school that will have to wait until the 
accumulation of funds --

A That's right; an accumulation of funds.
In fact, I should point out here in the four years 

which I have been in Clarksdale this School District has 
constructed well over 30 classrooms. It has, of course, 
under contract, under construction now, 12 more, which will 
approach 50.

This is not a big school district. This, of 
course, is not a very rich school district.

A school district is like the goose that lays the



50

golden egg. With its tax base, it can do so much at a time. 
If it attempts to go faster than is economically and 
educationally feasible, waste will occur and, of course, the 
community will be -- instead of served, it will be 
disserved or abused.

Q All right, sir.
Suppose we turn over to that next map.
Is this Map Number 4 identical with Map Number 4 

that's on file with the Court?
A It is.

This map contains the elementary school 
subdistricts, the same as Map Number 3, but it includes 
within each of the four subdistricts the attendance zones.

Of course, here in the northeast subdistrict the 
zone is still coterminous with the subdistrict. Of course, 
that will remain true until this whole area develops or 
begins developing, of course.

Q Suppose we start over here, Mr. Tynes.
This, of course, is E-4, is it not?

A Right.
Q And that is the northwest quadrant, is it not?
A Right.
Q All right, sir.



51

Now, you have the three elementary schools in that
district?

A We do.
Q Has your subdistrict been divided into three 

attendance areas -- 
A It has.
Q -- or zones?
A It has.
Q All right, sir.

Is a school located in each one of those 
attendance areas or zones?

A There is a school located in each one of the 
attendance zones; that is correct.

Q That is what is called the Kirkpatrick School -- 
A Kirkpatrick here, -- 
Q -- in Zone E 4-C?
A -- Heidelberg here
Q Heidelberg.
A -- and Oakhurst in here.
Q All right, sir.

Now, the Oakhurst building is located near the 
Sunflower River, isn't it?

A Right.



52

Q Located on the easternmost part --
A Right.
Q -- of that particular zone?
A Right.
Q All right.
A Of course, this is the oldest building site that 

we have in the elementary school.
Q Now, Mr. Tynes --
A It may be the second oldest. This one over here

could be older, but it is the oldest in this quadrant or 
subdistrict.

Q This map here shows only one bridge across the 
river, does it not?

A Right.
There should be a second one -- one at First 

Street as well as at Second.
Q Will you just mark that bridge, please, sir?

Now, I think you have mentioned to the Court 
before, Mr. Tynes, that this area from the First Street, the 
First Street on the northerly side, and Desoto, First Street 
as the northerly boundary, Desoto as the easterly boundary, 
the railroad down here and the river here, is a busy
commercial district.



53

A Right.
Q This is downtown Clarksdale?
A Right.
Q Is it the busiest commercial district we have?
A It is.
Q All right.

We have, as you say, some children who live in 
this area, which is north of First Street and also in 
Zone E 3-A,

A Right.
Q -- do we not?
A Right; we do.
Q We also have some over here in what we call the

Pleasant Acres Subdivision?
A Pleasant Acres; right.
Q That is in this northwest corner of this

particular zone we are talking about?
A Right.
Q Now, where is it contemplated, if the first grade 

is affected by this plan, that the first-grade pupils in 
this particular area, that is, the area north of First 
Street and in the Pleasant Acres Subdivision, will go to 
school since there is no elementary school in this district,



54

that is, until such time as the elementary school is built?
A Is constructed; right.

These children, for some years, have been 
attending Oakhurst north of First Street, and, of course, 
east of Desoto they have attended Clark.

Q Well, let's --
A We have --
Q --talk about these here.
A These north of First Street -- we attempt to have 

them circumvent this dangerous congested area as much as 
possible and cross this First Street bridge and go onto the 
campus here.

Q Is it possible for these children, these young 
children, to come from this neighborhood, from the Pleasant 
Acres Subdivision, and this neighborhood that's north of 
the First Street, which happens to be where I live, to come 
into this bridge here, cross over here, without coming 
through this business area --

A That's correct.
Q -- and subjecting themselves to a traffic hazard?
A In fact, they so do.

May I make this statement to the Court: This is a
municipal separate school district. This district, under



55

the law of the state, cannot provide transportation for its 
pupils. Consequently, all children here and throughout the 
district have to, of course, get their own means or devices 
for getting to the schools, no matter what level it may be.

Q If these children had to go to some other school, 
of course, the only other school they could go to would be 
the Eliza Clark School, --

A Eliza Clark.
Q -- which is in Zone E 1-C, is it not?
A That's correct.
Q If they were sent to that zone, would they have to

be subjected to the traffic hazards in this commercial 
district?

A The children, of course, north of this line 
would -- they would have to filter in here and, of course, 
go a much longer route as well.

Q Would you say --
A But they have a major concern there.
Q Taking into consideration their proximity to the

school and also the safety consideration, would you say that 
it's essential that they, these in this area, of the 
Zone E 3-A, be permitted to attend the Oakhurst Elementary 
School until such time as they have an elementary school of



56

their own?
A We have no other accessible school to which they 

could be sent or allowed to attend.
Q Is it essential that they be permitted to attend 

the Oakhurst Elementary School --
MR. BELL: Now, your Honor, --
By Mr. Luckett:

Q -- until such time as they have an elementary 
school of their own?

A Yes.
MR. BELL: -- could we have a little objection

about some of the leading?
THE WITNESS: It is essential.
THE COURT: Just a minute.
MR. BELL: I think some of it is permissible, but

I think we are going a little too far on it.
THE WITNESS: It is, of course, necessary --
THE COURT: Wait just a minute, Mr. Tynes.
MR. BELL: I think some of the leading is perhaps 

helpful here, -- that is why we haven't objected -- but I 
think at this point we are going a little too far and we 
would like to object to the leading questions.

MR. LUCKETT: i'll try not to, your Honor.



57

THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: I thought I had made it clear

previously in my testimony that this is absolutely 
essential.

By Mr. Luckett:
Q What would you say about the children in this 

zone who live east of Desoto Street?
A These children, of course, in this particular 

area -- if they are assigned here or are permitted to 
attend here, they again would have to filter through this 
section, this congested area. Consequently, down through 
the years, these children have attended here.

Q Is that what you call the Eliza Clark?
A The Eliza Clark.
Q All right, sir.

Let's go down to Zone E-2, Subdistrict E-2, and 
discuss these two attendance areas down here.

Will you tell the Court how it is divided in 
attendance areas?

A We have on the east side a railroad extending from 
Clarksdale toward Mattson and Tutwiler; of course, on the 
north a continuation of the railroad from Lyon to Bobo.

The southerly and westerly boundaries, of course,



58

are simply the city limits, which are the limits of the 
School District.

Now, that confines the southwest quadrant, which 
is Subdistrict E-2.

Subdistrict E-2 is divided primarily on the basis 
of proximity, and, of course, on the further basis there of 
maximum utilization of existing facilities and planned 
facilities, and, of course, similar criteria, and health and 
safety and the like there.

Now, this school, of course, is under construction.
The population in here --at least the pupil 

population -- has increased more rapidly than we expected 
two years ago.

We made our last full study two years ago, and in 
that two-year interval we had a much faster rise here in 
pupil population.

This zone has been under observation by the School 
Board for a number of years. It felt, of course, that a 
school would be located in this zone.

Now, actually, the population zoomed up faster 
than we thought that it would. I, frankly, thought two 
years ago that it would be '65 before this need would be 
completely justified, but just overnight, of course, it has



59

moved just simply almost explosive.
Now, there was an old Booker T. Washington site 

located in a somewhat downtown residential area, but this 
was an inadequate site.

The State of Mississippi would not approve a site 
anywhere, of course, approaching that dimension.

The School Board some six years ago made an 
effort to purchase property adjacent in here, but it could 
not.

This blank space in here is simply a huge federal 
-- I believe it’s a federal compress, cotton compress, and, 
of course, it covers many acres. It would have been an 
ideal location, but, of course, that was out of the 
question, completely prohibited.

Now, the School Board went to this area and 
purchased something over 15 acres of excellently drained 
land and built, I'd say, one of the finest school plants in 
the state, or possibly even in the South, elementary school 
plant.

Now, it has 16 classrooms there -- the capacity.
The children in here, of course, the children in 

this area, pretty well use up the capacity of this school.
May I say this: Even though these classrooms were



60

designed some years ago for a huge enrollment -- they can 
handle 50 pupils without crowding, but during the time that 
I have been administrative school officer in Clarksdale we 
have constantly lowered our teacher-pupil ratio year by 
year. Each year we set up a goal, a more favorable goal, 
toward which we strive.

Now, any person, of course, with any knowledge of 
educational administration knows that we were moving toward 
full accreditation of our schools.

When I came to Clarksdale, many of the schools were 
not fully accredited. They were more or less partially.

Now, during this time, of course, we have 
steadily increased our ratio to the point this past year we 
had no school that had an average of more than 35 pupils per 
teacher in the elementary schools throughout the system. Of 
course, we had no teacher with more than 40.

Now, this year coming up we're attempting to 
better that ratio, and we will. We have employed more 
teachers. We're constructing more classroom units, and, of 
course, we will be enabled to so do.

Now, we will have, of course, a difficult problem 
in working out assignments of children in this zone the 
first semester if we are compelled to accelerate faster than



61

I would say is educationally feasible and perhaps for the 
safety and the welfare, the general welfare, of the 
children involved in this total area, if we enter into a 
desegregation plan before the construction date of the 
school.

These children must be educated.
Incidentally, I might point this out: The School

Board has appointed its acting principal of the school.
This school will be organized September 1st. It'll be 
housed at other campuses during that interval of four 
months.

Now, that's nothing new with us, --we did the 
same thing over here with George Oliver three years ago -- 
in which we organize a school and bring it into being as a 
separate entity and house it on other campuses until we can 
actually physically occupy the school.

Now, we do that in order to avoid a great 
impairment of educational learning in the middle of the 
year or the year in which the transfer to the new facility 
is made. These same children will come with their identical 
teacher to this new plant, whereas if you come in the middle 
of the year without prior educational planning and make 
these interruptions, employ new teachers and the like there



62

and the children come in with children they have never seen 
before and that sort of thing, of course, you're running up 
against a blank wall so far as instruction is concerned.

And may I repeat my concern here is for the 
instruction of children. I have no concern to become a 
social agitator, reformer, with all deference to those 
people who follow those callings. We are concerned, of 
course, with the educational welfare of children. That's 
my work. That's all I know.

Q Now, Mr. Tynes, when these plans were developed, 
there was also a survey made of the school population of 
Clarksdale, --

A There was.
Q -- was there not?
A That's right.
Q That was made about what time?
A This survey --

Of course, now, we received the summons back in 
late April. Then in the latter part of June, after we had 
done what work we could towards planning, working with the 
Board and with the counsel -- then in late June, possibly 
right at the final week of June, we received a temporary 
order -- I forget the exact legal language of it, but I



63

would call it a temporary order -- to proceed at once with a 
plan -- actually, by July 30, just 30 days later -- by 
which, of course, we would effect immediate desegregation 
September 1, 1964.

Now, most of our principals, all elementary, were 
on vacation. They're employed 10 months in the year.
June 15th they terminate their contract and come back, of 
course, August 16.

Immediately after getting this order at the end of 
June -- and the first week of July we had had a chance to 
posture to it with implication -- we had to call in our 
principals, at least all available, and get them, of course, 
into the job of simply pinpointing where every child lives.

I might say this: At least every two years -- and, 
of course, some years each year -- we make a detailed what we 
call a pupil population tack map of every residence of every’'-,, 
child in the school district. We do that, of course, and it 
is just more or less an accepted educational and 
administrative technique or procedure; but I had told our 
principals at the end of their contracts in mid June that we 
would set up these maps in September and October of this 
fall, not, of course, at all anticipating that we would 
immediately have to take a closer and an immediate survey of



64

our whole school district. Consequently, we had to pull 
these in from their vacations, all who were available, and 
immediately we went into that work of preparing a pupil 
population tack map.

Q Mr. Tynes, is this primarily a white residential
area?

A Primarily.
Q Are there any Negroes at all in this area?
A There are some scattered about. Not a great

number.
Q All right.

Did your survey, made the first part of July, 
indicate some Negroes in this particular area?

A It did; yes.
Q All right.

Insofar as this area we are talking about down in 
here now, which is Zone E 2-B, how would you say that area 
is divided between whites and colored?

A I expect about two to one colored ratio -- two to 
one over the whites.

Q You are talking about now --
A Now.
Q insofar as area?



65

A Now, insofar as area is concerned, it's just about 
split wide open.

The Negro families are simply more prolific than 
the whites.

Q Insofar as this, this is the most mixed zone we 
have in Clarksdale now?

A Well, it is.
Of course, we have others quite mixed also.

Q Now, we were talking also about Zone E 2-A.
A Right.
Q Is it primarily a Negro residential district?
A Primarily.
Q Are there whites in there?
A Whites; yellow. We have Chinese, of course.
Q All right, sir.
A Not a great number, but some.
Q It is contemplated under this plan, then, -- I hope 

I'm not leading too much, but I don't think this is 
objectionable -- that when this school building is built 
here, this new school building is completed in December of 
1965, --

A Sixty-four.
Q -- that the children here --



V

66

A Sixty-four.
Q -- in this zone will go to that particular school?
A That's correct.

If this Court, of course, speaks on an escalated 
or stairstep instruction, then the grade involved will be 
assigned here without respect or consideration for race, 
color, national origin, religion, or any of those, of 
course, objectionable criteria.

Now, that will, of course, be an absolute thing 
from which, of course, there will be no escape so far as the 
School Board is concerned.

Q If the Court will order this escalation to begin 
on September 1, 1964, where would these first-grade pupils
go?

A

Booker T.

Q

A

Q

I mean the first-grade pupils in Zone E 2-B.
Yes.
These pupils would have to be assigned here to 
-- Booker T. Washington.

That is in the plan, is it not, sir?
Yes. That's proposed.
All right, sir.
Do you know of anything further to be said about

the Subdistrict E-2 and those two particular zones?



67

A No.
Of course, this division is simply made here. 
These children are a little far from this center. 

They are much closer here.
Of course, we have safety factors present here, 

with sidewalks along Walnut, most of Walnut, and we think 
this, of course, would shorten their distance greatly from 
Booker T.

Q Is that the reason this line is drawn here -- 
A Right.
Q -- rather than the line along here?
A Right.
Q For the safety of the children?
A Right.
Q And the convenience of the children?
A Right.
Q Now, let's look at the southeast part.

Now, we have a large area out here -- 
A Right.
Q -- in this section of town?
A Reinhart.
Q What we call the Reinhart area?
A Right.



Q This is sort of wasteland in there, is it not?
A Cotton. Chiefly cotton.
Q Well, that is that old pond in there?
A Yes.
Q That's that old pond right there?
A Yes.
Q The cotton --

We better not call that wasteland. We might get 
run out of Clarksdale.

What is located there at this point?
A This is the Housing Authority here -- the

Clarksdale Housing Authority.
Q All right.
A And, of course, Immaculate Conception School at 

this point.
Q And this space right in here that is more or les 

blank?
A That's the hospital site -- the Coahoma County 

Hospital site.
Q Are there both Negroes and whites in that zone,
A Right.
Q -- Zone E 1-A?
A Right. Throughout. Throughout that zone.



69

Q A substantial number of whites?
A Yes; definitely.
Q Is there an elementary school in this particular

zone?
A Yes. One.
Q What's it called?
A George H. Oliver.
Q Is it the school that you referred to as being a

school that would ultimately be turned into a junior high 
school?

A We so expect; yes.
Q When and if that isdone, will another elementary 

school
A Will have to be constructed.
Q -- have to be constructed -- 
A Right.
Q --in there?
A Right.
Q Is there land available that belongs to the county 

or the community that's in that neighborhood?
A There's land adjacent to this George Oliver 

School, and, of course, there are other sites which we are 
looking at also.



70

Q You weren't there at the time. This did happen to 
be the old Municipal Airport?

A Right.
Q And it has been used for schools and hospitals, -- 
A Right.
Q -- has it not?
A Right.
Q Things like Health Department and what-not?

Now, is this an adequate facility or modern
facility?

Is it capable of taking care of elementary pupils 
in that zone?

A Quite adequate now. In fact, more than adequate. 
We'll have spare rooms here.

Q Is it modern?
A Constructed about two years ago. In fact, one

wing -- six classrooms were constructed just a year ago, but 
the original unit about two and a half years ago.

Q All right, sir.
As I remember, you said you had three schools in 

this quadrant?
A Right.
Q In this --



71

A Southeast.
Q -- southeast quadrant?
A District.
Q And, of course, that means you have got three 

zones?
A Right.
Q And the first one is the George Oliver zone?
A Right.
Q What would be the second one?
A Myrtle Hall.

This is Myrtle Hall.
Q Where is Myrtle Hall located?
A It's located in this block.
Q Right there?
A Right.
Q All right, sir.

Are there some whites in that area?
A Yes.
Q Now, you see this big part of this map down here, 

that is, it is the part, we'll say, south of State Street, 
and we are also on this Highway Number 49.

A Yes.
Q Now, are there any pupils in this area in here,



72

that is, between Highway 49 and the railroad and south of 
Zone E 1-C?

A There may be two or three pupils in there, but 
this whole area is industrial and commercial, that whole 
block.

Q So, actually, when we are talking about --
A I think there are one or two pupils right along

about here.
Q -- Area E 1-B, it is not nearly as big --
A No.
Q -- as it looks on the map?
A No.
Q All right.

Will these pupils who are affected by this plan 
at the beginning go to the school in that particular --

A They will so do.
Q Now, what about that school, both in reference to

its availability and capacity and --
A The Myrtle Hall School has actually four units. 

Three have classrooms. One unit has 10 classrooms; one has 
six, and one has four.

The unit which has four is frame. It's the only 
what I know marginal building which we have in the district.



73

For these four years during my administration we have sought 
means to abdicate that building.

Now, in constructing these 30-odd classrooms, just 
about this time we thought we would be able to vacate those 
four classrooms; but the population seemed to just come up 
and just caused us to need those rooms.

Now, we have finally planned what we call a 
breakthrough with this construction over here, in which 
actually we not only can vacate those four rooms and, of 
course, remove the property from the premises, but we will 
then have one or possibly two or three vacant classrooms for 
future growth in the more permanent building.

The six-classroom unit is a modern structure, 
constructed in the '50s, and we renovated it a year ago, 
just polished it up, -- Venetian blinds, better fluorescent 
lighting, of course, floor tiling and what-not then -- just 
gave it a good make-up job, brought it right up to date.

Now, the other unit, 10 classrooms, is an older 
unit. In fact, it compares over here with these high school 
units north of the railroad. It's somewhere up around 40 to 
50 years in age. It was renovated some five years ago and 
is in what I would call relatively good condition for a 
building that age. It certainly would compare with some of



74

the buildings over here.
This campus, of course, is not as large as we 

would like to have. It has four acres, and we would like to 
have it larger, and, of course, with that in mind, we don't 
expect to do much expanding in that area, but we will have 
more campus when we remove this building in late December, 
and we'll have room for growth.

Q In other words, that building in that area is 
expendable --

A Right.
Q -- and will go when this new building is 

completed in December, --
A Right.
Q -- September or December, of 1964?
A Right.

We will vacate it completely and -- not only 
that --we will raze it to the ground, remove it.

Q You have a Zone E 1-C?
A Right.
Q Does it have a school?
A Yes.
Q What do you call that school?
A This is the Eliza Clark building.



75

Q You have already said something about its age.
What would you say about --

A Eliza Clark is relatively a new building. It's 
only 10 or 12 years of age, but a peculiar thing about it 
-- it has only seven classrooms, and the foundation, for 
some reason, has simply given way.

In fact, studies -- I know my file goes back to 
*58 -- possibly even earlier -- show that the School 
District almost from its inception has had to have its 
architects and engineers make periodic inspections and come 
before the Board and frequently make lengthy written reports 
concerning the continuing deterioration of the structure of 
the building.

Something happened to the foundation, in which the 
whole northeast corner, three classrooms, especially, and, 
of course, others threatened, simply are settling.

The doors have to be cut off, and, of course, the 
frames are this way and that way and the like.

This is just simply a periodic thing.
Now, the Board spent for several years, especially 

in the late '50s, considerable sums of money trying to check 
the deterioration, but it reached a point, what I call a 
point of diminishing return, in which more money expended



76

into it simply was not arresting the problem. Consequently, 
this small unit, with only seven classrooms, is just simply 
going to have to more or less fade out of our educational 
planning unless things change in the foundation. Of course, 
we have no hope that they will.

We have about four classrooms which seem to be 
fairly free at the moment, but we have three that -- I 
would say this: If the grand jury should go in there this
next week, I doubt seriously that the School Board could 
occupy those three classrooms.

Mr. Tynes, you have already testified that these 
pupils in Zone 3-A who live east of the Desoto Street, in 
this pocket right in here, will cross under that viaduct and 
go to this school?

A Yes.
Q And that there's reason insofar as their safety 

and convenience that requires that?
A Yes.
Q Now, with those in the school and with the 

condition that you referred to the school being in, is there 
room for any more other than the pupils that are encompassed 
in the lines of Zone E 1-C?

A No.



77

We have had crowding in here in the last three 
years even utilizing these seven classrooms. We have had 
constantly to shift children over in this area all the way 
over here to Oakhurst. Consequently, we've had this j
crowding situation all along, and, of course, we never know 
when -- possibly right before school starts -- if a grand 
jury session happened to go over and make a check, we never 
know how many rooms we might have to vacate even on a 
moment's notice. Consequently, plans concerning this have 
to be very tentative, and we would be, of course, most 
reluctant to promise this Court or any other entity that we 
can have long use of this facility.

Q Now, the south line of that zone -- what is that?
A This is U. S. Highway 61.
Q All right.
A This area.
Q Of course, the western --
A The westward is the railroad --
Q Yes.
A -- running from Clarksdale on over to Tutwiler.

The northward, of course, is the railroad running 
from Bobo to Lyon.

The eastward is simply an old historical boundary



78

here that divides subdivisions and, of course, has been used 
for years and years, except this three-year period in which 
we had this crowding.

Q Now, these interior lines -- how were they 
arrived at?

You had to draw some interior lines in every one 
of these districts, -- 

A We sought --
Q -- subdistricts, except one.
A We sought with the attendance zones simply to take 

advantage of our educational facilities.
Of course, we were concerned with proximity of 

children. We were concerned about their general welfare, 
safety and health and the like, access routes.

We were concerned, of course, with factors such
as those.

We have to utilize our buildings. That’s, of 
course, the only thing economically feasible to do.

Of course, at the same time we sought to make our 
line straight, as free of gerrymandering as possible.

Of course, if we hit a corner of a block, we had 
to just come straight across it. We might have a part of a
lot. It would be a question of whether the front end of the

c.



79

lot or the rear end would simply prevail in that case as to 
where the child attended.

But these were just simply honestly and openly 
arrived at.

Q Let's turn and get to the fifth map.
A The which one?

Q The fifth.
A The fifth?

Q The last one, sir.
A Right.

Q Is this Map Number 5 identical with Map Number 5
on file with the Court?

A This is a composite map, simply a combining of all 
of the subdistricts and attendance zones, and it is an exact 
duplicate of Map Number 5 on file with this Court.

Q Is there anything else you think you need to say 
about the maps, Mr. Tynes?

A I would simply say this in conclusion: These
maps, these zones, were openly arrived at.

The School Board approached this, of course, 
color-blind, on a color-blind basis.

Hundreds and hundreds of children in both races
are affected.



80

Of course, this sort of thing took marvelous 
courage on the part of the School Board. Had it not had 
this overwhelming desire simply to get out of court and to 
get on with the business of education, I don't see how it 
could have possibly arrived at anything which is as 
professionally justifiable as is this presentation, this 
exhibit, or series of exhibits.

Q Well, let me ask you at this time to again 
summarize for the Court the advantages you see from an 
educator's viewpoint to the neighborhood school plan, 
particularly as it refers to the Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District.

A Well, the neighborhood school plan simply brings 
stability. It brings freedom from litigation, freedom from 
this festering-sore sort of thing, with all deference to the 
Court here.

I'm referring to its effect upon the defendants in
this case.

A school board and its administrative staff can 
ill afford to misuse their time by constantly being away 
from their duties and, of course, being party to situations 
and issues and the like which the wisest minds in the land, 
of course, hardly know the solution to.



81

Consequently, we have sought here, through an 
honest and above-board approach to this, to avoid these 
transfer problems, to avoid these constant situations, in 
which a parent, for a good reason or just simply for a minor 
reason, would want to go to this school or School B or C and 
the like -- and those things, I can testify to this Court, 
will arise even within a known race.

Now, if you have just a single race in a zone and 
if you allow these transfers and assignments and the like to 
take place, you will have that situation whether you have 
multirace patterns there or not. I have so had the 
experience and I can so testify.

Consequently, we say, without any hesitation 
whatsoever, that what the School Board and its administrative 
staff, its counsel, have sought to come up with here is 
simply a plan to which the wide and prudent may repair with 
confidence in the knowledge that this thing will enable the 
administrative staff and the School Board to get on with 
this task, this important task, of educating children.

Q Does it protect the safety of the children, sir?
A We definitely submit that it does.
Q Would it give a good educational pattern, in that 

it would have a good homogeneous group in each school?



82

A We would so have.
Now, you would notice here where we have greater 

integration of housing those people have learned to 
accommodate and to live together. Consequently, we would 
not expect to have the type of explosive situation in our 
school where these large communities have learned to 
accommodate to the cultural patterns. I mean the color 
patterns and the like.

We submit, of course, that even though we have 
involved hundreds and hundreds that we are attempting to, 
of course, not bring about what you might expect up in 
Chicago and some of the other places where we don't have the 
harmony and the respect and the mutual esteem which we have 
here in these homogeneous groups. Even though there are 
different racial patterns, we would hope, of course, we 
would not have these problems break out.

Q Now, Mr. Tynes, to get to another feature of this
matter, you and the School Board have recommended that we 
begin the desegregation of the schools by desegregating the 
first grade and then desegregating one grade additionally -- 

A That's right.
Q -- each year?
A That's right.



83

Q And I would call that a gradual approach.
Now, would you tell the Court why, in your 

opinion as an educator, that is the plan that should be used 
for the desegregation of the schools of this particular 
School District?

A I simply would be less than honest if I did not 
state right here my own personal conviction that the finest 
welfare of children will be served by segregated schools 
when we have large groups for which a number of schools are 
necessary; in other words, if you have large groups of 
schools located, of course, in a way that it can be done, 
but the courts have seen fit, of course, to override that 
philosophy, that point of view.

Now, whether or not the court is right, of course, 
has not been finally determined in the court of public 
opinion, and the judgment of the court as far as the verdict 
of history has not yet been written; but we are in this 
great sociological experiment.

Now, with that statement, let us come to an actual 
implementation of these plans proposed that you have asked 
in your question then.

Now, naturally, the School Board and its 
administrative officers, the white and the black, of course,



84

had to view all the criteria, all the factors, all the plans 
and the like that were available and come up with a starting 
point.

If we can just smash the whole thing together, of 
course, we can have explosion.

That hasn't been the pattern anywhere, to my 
knowledge, in which the whole thing was done just like the 
striking of lightning or something of the sort.

Now, the question naturally arises: At what
level --at what grade level -- shall the initial efforts be 
made?

That, of course, brings up the question of 
maturity of children. It brings up the question of the 
ability of children. It brings up the question then of the 
achievement of children. It brings up the question there of 
the behavior of children and the like.

Now, we would submit to this Court or to any other 
duly constituted body in this land that the place of 
beginning selected needs to be one in which this School 
Board, making this bona fide, good-faith effort, could 
expect the greatest margin of success.

If this thing should simply explode in the Board's 
face, you can imagine, of course, what would happen. The



85

School Board would be discredited and, of course, the whole 
community would be thrown in turmoil. The educational 
wheels would simply grind to a stop.

Consequently, it became the duty of this School 
Board, all defendants in this case, to arrive at steps which 
would grant to the defendants and to the entire community, 
all plaintiffs and defendants and the total community, the 
greatest margin of expected success.

Now, having studied the experiences of other 
school systems which have confronted and encountered these 
issues, these problems, the School Board and its executive 
officers came to the unanimous conclusion that beginning 
with the first grade, where children are, of course, the 
least sophisticated, where they are not mature enough to do 
one another personal physical harm and damage, where 
prejudice, racial prejudice, if it is acquired, as some 
would claim -- of course, others claim that it's partially 
inherited -- we don't know the full answer to it; the thing 
is in dispute, but granting, as we must do, that some 
prejudice must be acquired, that is, learned, we would 
naturally expect the children who have not attended a 
segregated school should have least prejudice.

Now, I'll grant now that I have heard competent



86

testimony to the effect that even in the most liberal home, 
white or Negro, or any other color, that by the time a child 
is three years of age this color consciousness and 
prejudice, all of that, on a sociological basis, is present.

Now, granting that, still we would think that if 
the thing is learned, if color prejudice is learned, or if 
some of it is acquired after a child enters this life, and 
not all of it came down through the blood stream, the genes 
and the chromosomes and the like, the hereditary factors, we 
would naturally assume, and predicate, of course, our plans 
upon this assumption, that there would be the least amount 
here with these first-graders.

Now, much has been made in recent years since the 
Brown case concerning the disparity in ability, native 
ability, and, of course, learning rate, intelligence and 
all those things between the races. These issues are still 
unresolved. No one knows, so far as I know, the total 
answer, except the Creator, himself. Some, of course, point 
out -- I've heard competent testimony concerning these 
differences.

Now, this we know: If there are inherent
differences or disparities in abilities of the two races, it 
would stand to reason that these disparities would be the



87

least at the first year of school, at the beginning year of 
school. We know, of course, if these disparities widen, if 
they tend to diverge instead of converge, as children 
proceed through school, that still the achievement and the 
ability levels would be, of course, the nearest equal at the 
first grade. In other words, we're saying that the 
children, all the children here involved, would have their 
fairest start at the first-grade level. Thereafter we 
fear -- in fact, competent testimony is available to this 
Court that thereafter the lag, of course, mitigates against 
the complaining race here today, and, of course, that would 
work to the trauma and to the educational hurt of these 
children that they sought to adjust, that they sought to 
keep up educationally, when they were not prepared. Whether 
by cultural deprivation, whether by heredity, I don't know; 
but, no matter the cause, we'd be giving them an unequal 
chance. We would be causing our plans to have a greater 
risk of simply frustration and of failure.

Now, I would not be a party to coming before this 
Court or any other court in the land and presenting 
something that -- I could not do so in a bona fide way, in 
which I could say, based on more than 30 years of 
professional work at this stage of life, I am devoted to it



and to the welfare of children -- I simply would not come 
here and submit a plan, be a party to it, which had simply 
the odds stacked against it at the beginning. Consequently, 
I am saying if we start at any other point here, other than 
the first grade, we are stacking the odds against these 
children -- and, of course, it's the children who stand to 
be the victims in all of this litigation and have the wheels 
of educational progress grind to a halt in community after 
community, and, of course, children seem to be greatly used 
there as pawns.

Now, to summarize, the ability of children, their 
achievement level, of course, their behavior, itself -- 
they're minimal; they're docile; they can be handled here at 
the first grade, whereas if they get up to adolescence and 
maturity they can, of course, be as mean as yard dogs when 
these color prejudices come to light.

You have only to read the newspapers to see that 
pattern across the nation, from border to border and from 
the Canadian line to the Gulf.

Consequently, we want to avoid these violences, if 
possible, and, of course, we don't want to come before this 
Court with a plan that has built into it the inherent 
qualities that will predispose it toward failure; and we

88



89

submit, therefore, that starting with the first grade is our 
best and most defensible procedure and the one that has the 
greatest opportunity to succeed.

Q That would carry on with that first grade one 
grade a year?

A It definitely would. It definitely would.
Q It wouldn't introduce any child who had previously

been to a segregated school?
A That is right.

Of course, even in the plans we have offered,
Plans 1 and 2, we propose right on that when we come to the 
junior high level we take the whole group.

I can't say, of course, that that's completely 
educationally and professionally feasible and advisable, but 
we have seen an apparent great haste in the courts of the 
land to get on with this business.

Consequently, if you examine these plans, you will 
find that these plans have -- in fact, they have more 
acceleration built into them than any plan I have seen 
submitted anywhere, anywhere close to the deep South. In 
fact, the School Board will catch great criticism -- it 
already has -- on the acceleration, the speed, with which it 
has gone into the matter of solving this problem.



Q The plans anticipate when we get to the junior 
high school stage and the senior high school stage it will 
take how long .to take those last six grades into the plan?

A Only two years. In fact, a total of two years.
In fact, if you would stop and analyze, one 

junior high grade hits, well, the senior high one year 
hence.

Of course, in a 12 months' period the whole group 
actually will be desegregated.

Q All right, sir.
Now, let's get to another subject, Mr. Tynes.
The School Board has expressed a preference for 

Plan 2, and you referred to it, I think, in some of your 
testimony.

A Yes.
Q Now, as I understand, the difference between 

Plan 1 and Plan 2 has to do with the beginning of the 
implementation of the plan in, we'll say, the second 
semester of the coming school year rather than the first 
semester of the coming school year, --

A Yes.
Q -- but with us taking on two grades then rather

90



91

than one grade the first of September. It would actually 
speed it up a little bit, would it not?

A In good faith, the School Board has set before 
this Court Plan 2, which actually will require a total of 
six years in which to effect desegregation comprehensively, 
from Grade 1 to 12, in preference to, shall we say, the 
Court-ordered plan, whereby, of course, we even accelerated 
it.

Now, the reason which lay back of the Board's 
judgment and decision in asking that Plan 2, in which two 
grades effective on January 1965, just four months hence, 
just over four months --

Now, naturally, some considerable thought and 
planning and soul-searching had to go into that. I would 
like just simply to give first some very casual reasons, 
reasons with less weight, and then come up to some reasons 
of greater weight, which prompted the Board and its 
administrative officers to come with this plan.

Now, in the first place, school begins two weeks 
from tomorrow -- not the planning; not the opening or 
anything. The school day, eight-hour school day, starts two 
weeks from tomorrow.

Our principals, of course, elementary principals,



92

have just returned from their two months' vacations. I have 
been unable to give to these principals clear and concise 
and unquestionable lines or guidelines or lines of 
procedure. In fact, we can't do that until the Court has 
spoken. Everything is on a tentative basis, and present 
uncertainty and the like prevails, and lots of confusion.

Now, we have already postponed registration, which 
was scheduled for months, that we had set yesterday. We've 
had to postpone that because anything that we would have 
done yesterday, of course, could have been subject to change 
later and, consequently, we've had the whole registration in 
abeyance.

Now, at this moment we have eight teaching 
vacancies, the highest number we have ever had on our staff 
at this time of the year.

Principals with one accord have told me that many 
of these vacancies stem from our uncertainty, our confusion, 
the spirit of agitation.

Of course, these things are not hidden under a 
bushel basket. They're known abroad. As you know, the news 
media literally pounces upon the sole dissension and 
discord. That makes sensational headlines and the like.

Now, perhaps I shouldn't mention this, but if the



93

Court will tolerate it I would like to do so.
/ When this temporary order first came in late
June, our Assistant Superintendent, who works with all the 
Negro children in that whole area there, came to me 
immediately when he saw it in the paper -- and, of course, 
we saw it then by the time, of course, we had gotten 
official word, even before, and he came to me immediately, 
and he had, of course, I'd say, the most agitated look I 
have ever seen a professional schoolman have. He was really 
at the verge of tears, and he says, :iMr. Tynes, we can't do 
it. We can't be ready."

Now, he knew, of course, what it would mean to
him.

Now, he's a man of outstanding integrity. I think 
that the members of his race have as much respect for him as 
any professional schoolman in this state, and, of course, he 
would testify here in a minute this- morning that this would 
be an impossible condition to be ready by September 1.

Naturally, he's been a party to every step we have 
taken throughout this whole thing. We don't hide things 
from him. He's a professional man; of course, has the 
qualifications and the like for one.

And, so, I submit, with all deference to the



Court, that our principals -- in fact, our Negro 
administrators actually have a greater concern here because 
they can see that possibly in the early stages here they're 
going to get hit more strongly and more directly than 
perhaps some of the others; in fact, to a greater extent.

Now, we have pointed out, of course, to the Court 
that our Riverton School will not be ready, for occupancy 
until late in December.

, Now, if we go ahead and crystallize and simply 
finalize matters here effective September 1 rather than 
January 1, then we're going to work a great educational 
disservice to hundreds of children. I know of no way by 
which we could do otherwise, and our administrators working 
with this problem right now, grappling with it, have advised 
me time and time again if the Court does not give us four 
months then our children are hurt, and, of course, that 
thing is upon us. Consequently, we're saying, of course, to 
this Court that we need flexibility here for four months.

I hope I'm not objectionable or obnoxious, but I 
submit, based on experiences in all the other school 
districts that I know about that have encountered this 
problem, that this four months' request does not appear to 
any schoolman that I know of as an unreasonable or

94



95

unfeasible request, and I would submit that simply with all 
deference.

Now, if we fail to have this period here in which 
we can adjust, while we have our principals on duty, while 
we have our teachers with their children, so that they can 
arrest all these rumors, these tendencies that would seek to 
disturb and undermine our educational program, if we 
suddenly and precipitously strike home this thing in the 
next several days to a community, a total community --

I'm not saying a word here in deference to the 
Board of Education or the Superintendent. I'm making this 
simple statement here and appeal for the professional staff, 
the teachers, who must carry on the cutting edge, the 
educational program and system, and I'm saying it further 
for the children, themselves.

I'm not saying a word for any other group than the 
children and the professional staff that would do this job, 
and I hope that, if possible, of course, Plan 2 will be or 
can be considered.

Now, to summarize, we would submit that this first 
grade or the first and second in that order, for the reasons 
previously set forth -- these reasons are behavior; these 
reasons are maturity; the reasons here are more equal



96

ability, are more equal achievement level at that point, and 
the fact that these will enable us to have a much fairer 
start, a much greater opportunity to succeed -- that these 
things be given full weight and consideration.

Q All right, sir.
Then, to summarize, will the terrible problem 

which we all recognize we're faced with -- will that be much 
more manageable, to a far greater extent than is present 
today, if we wait until this Riverton School is ready and 
constructed?

A It definitely will be.
Every administrator in our system, no matter his 

color, is thoroughly agreed that that is true.
Q It will ease the pains throughout the whole plan 

and throughout the whole district?
A Definitely.

It gives our administrators -- and, of course, 
this Court knows that the permanent schools of this nation 
ride forward first on strong principals -- and, of course, 
my whole philosophy is directed toward building strong, 
professionally competent principals, no matter what their 
color is. We vest them with authority and with discretion, 
broad discretionary power, and, of course, we attempt to



97

develop them, their competency, on a professional level.
Now, these people would be put at great, almost 

insurmountable, disadvantages if we rush them in before 
they've ever gotten to say one word to their staff, ever had 
a chance, of course, with their staff to say one word to the 
children involved.

This thing, of course, has come up like, oh, a 
thunderstorm in the summer, just simply had boiled up 
immediately, and, of course, has struck us.

Let me say to the Court that throughout these 10 
years, and even years before, full deliberation for this 
multiracial problem has been given by this witness and by 
many others in this state. We're not asking for time for 
deliberation. We've had all the time we need. We're asking 
simply for a little time in which to put our plan into 
operation.

No request is made here for time to deliberate.
The plea here is simply to enable our school principals and 
our school staff to put into operation these plans without 
bringing traumatic conditions to our children.

We think that the welfare, the safety and the 
educational welfare, of our children, of course, simply 
needs to be enunciated in court, and, of course, I make that



98

plea here from the witness chair this morning, that these 
things be given full weight and consideration.

MR. LUCKETT: That's all, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may defer your cross examination

until after the noon recess.
Court is in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Thereupon, at 11:53 a. m., the Court
recessed until 2 p. m.)



99

AFTERNOON SESSION

(The Court reconvened and the hearing was 
continued at 2 p. m.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.
The witness will resume the stand, please.
You may cross-examine.

GYCELLE TYNES,
a defendant, called by and in behalf of the defendants and 
in his own behalf, resumed the stand and, having been 
previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Bell:

Q You indicated, Superintendent Tynes, that when 
this suit was" filed you immediately called together your 
personnel and hired an attorney and thereafter took his 
advice concerning certain alterations of your operation of 
the Clarksdale school system; is that correct?

A The School Board, itself, assembled, and, of 
course, that was operation.

Q And that was soon after the suit was filed -- 
A Yes.



100

Q -- in April of this year?
A Yes.
Q Now, you indicated you made a study of varying 

methods by which it was your understanding that compliance 
with the Supreme Court's school desegregation decision could 
be obtained, and you decided on the plan of drawing a single 
set of zone lines; is that correct?

A That's correct.
I Q Now, would you review again the purpose or the 

reason why you felt that compliance could be obtained by 
drawing zone lines?

A Well, I think that we simply pointed out that this 
is a time-tested, time-honored means of reaching all the 
children in a given school district and getting them as 
close as possible to their schools, where their grade and 
level is, utilizing completely the school buildings, 
observing, of course, natural boundaries, with such factors, 
of course, as access roads, safety and health hazards, 
possible attractive nuisances, all of these things, of 
course, which go into the general welfare of children, --

Q Well, on
A -- and --

Excuse me.



101

A Yes.
Q On your plan it indicates, I believe, in each of 

the plans, that you had devised a set of standards in 
drawing these lines -- utilization of school buildings; 
proximity of pupils to schools to be attended; natural 
boundaries, and welfare of all pupils of the School District.

Now, taking those from the last, what standards or 
what factors in drawing these lines did the Board use in 
considering welfare of all pupils of the School District?

A Safety and health hazards and attractive 
nuisances.

Q And how about Number 2 -- proximity of pupils to 
schools to be attended?

A Since we have no public transportation, we 
attempt, of course, to keep pupils, other factors being 
equal, as close to their school as possible. Of course, 
that can't be totally achieved when you have a developing 
community, one in which areas simply make it financially 
impossible to purchase a site right in the geographic center 
of a particular zone or community. Consequently, in using 
proximity, we have to, of course, weigh it with or equate it 
with other factors, which, of course, impinge or bear upon 
the solution of the problem.



102

Q I would like to come back to that, but, first, 
what is just the approximate number of Negro and white 
students who are presently attending the Clarksdale school 
system?

A Between 5,000 and fifty-two or three hundred.
Q That would be the total?
A Yes.
Q And how would that break down as far as races are 

concerned?
A We had approximately 2600 Negro pupils this past 

year, net enrollment, and just under that figure for the 
whites.

Q Wait a minute. You said there are 5200 students.
A I said between 5,000 and 5200.
Q I see.
A I'm referring just to pupils living in this School 

District.
Q And you have at the present time seven elementary 

schools, Grades 1 to 6?
A Right.
Q And you have zones for nine grades?
A Right.

Nine schools.



103

Q Nine schools.
A Schools; right.
Q Contemplating the construction of two more

schools?
A Yes.
Q And the n you have junior high schools at the 

present time?
A Yes.
Q There are two junior high schools in the city; is

that right?
A We have one separately organized junior high. We

have a combination junior high and senior high.
Q Now, which is separate?
A The separate entity is north of this line. It is

in Subdistrict J-2, S-2, north of this line running from 
Lyon to Bobo, north of the railroad.

We have a separate entity there.
We have a joint entity at this location.

Q Now, the school here in the southern area, the
area south of the main railroad tracks, is the Higgins 
Junior and Senior High?

A Right.
Q Is that correct?



104

Q And what is the school --
THE COURT: Wait just a minute.
By Mr. Bell:

Q -- north of the --
THE COURT: Wait just a minute, would you, please?
Let me get something straight now.
Your junior high school in what I will call the 

northern high school and junior high school district -- is 
it actually a separate physical plant or is it-a plant on 
the same campus?

THE WITNESS: The senior high?
THE COURT: Junior high.
THE WITNESS: It has four plants or four buildings

making up a plant.
THE COURT: On a single campus?
THE WITNESS: On the same campus.
THE COURT: This is the one you were referring to

in commenting on one of the buildings --
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: -- being real old --
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: -- and in bad shape?

A That's correct.



105

By Mr. Bell:
Q Now, in this campus north of the railroad track, 

were high school students assigned there last year as well 
as --

A Senior high or junior high?
Q Give me the answer for both. I'm not real sure.

How about junior high first?
A Two years just junior high.
Q Junior high?
A Grades 7 through 9.
Q Grades 7 through 9?
A Right.
Q Then how about Grades 10 to 12?
A Ten to 12 attended a joint school out here, in the 

sixteenth section, one jointly operated by the city and 
county.

Q And was this the first year they had attended such 
school?

A Second year.
Q Second year?

THE WITNESS: That is correct.

A Two years.
Q Now, these were all white students who attended



105

By Mr. Bell:
Q Now, in this campus north of the railroad track, 

were high school students assigned there last year as well 
as --

A Senior high or junior high?
Q Give me the answer for both. I'm not real sure.

How about junior high first?
A Two years just junior high.
Q Junior high?
A Grades 7 through 9.
Q Grades 7 through 9?
A Right.
Q Then how about Grades 10 to 12?
A Ten to 12 attended a joint school out here, in the 

sixteenth section, one jointly operated by the city and 
county.

Q And was this the first year they had attended such 
school?

A Second year.
Q Second year?

THE WITNESS: That is correct.

A Two years.
Q Now, these were all white students who attended



106

this school?
A Right; they were.
Q And all Negro students who attended the Higgins

School
A That's my understanding.
Q --in the southern part of the town?
A Right.
Q What is the future plans as far as the 

utilization of this Clarksdale-Coahoma County School?
A This is owned by the county.

When I say the county, of course, we mean Coahoma 
County School District and its Board of Education.

Now, these two School Boards went into a joint 
arrangement or contract by which in a three-year period they 
agreed to operate and support jointly operated junior high 
and senior high schools.

The school back here, for this duration of the 
contract, is a junior high school, which for the past two 
years has housed county white junior high pupils.

Of course, out here this school has house the city 
white senior high students.

Q Now, you indicated, I believe, or the pleadings 
indicated that this contractual arrangement will expire in



107

June '64 --
A Right.
Q -- or '65?
A June 30, *64.
Q Is it presently planned to renew that contract for 

a further period?
A I think now, of course, counsel can simply do just

a little thinking and recognize, since this building is 
owned by the County District and since the County Board of 
Education as well as the City Board here, the Municipal 
Separate District Board -- each one has to face up to this 
encounter with the civil rights statutes, with the court 
cases, of course, which are imminent in this state, and one 
of which we're engaged in here, and the very nature of these 
things make, of course, continued usage of this building by 
the city pupils a completely speculative thing.

Q I don't know that I understand your answer.
- **•

THE COURT: I think I do. He simply said they
haven't worked it out yet.

By Mr. Bell:
Q Well, that, the former senior high school, was 

called the Bobo High School?
A Right.



108

I understand that has now been turned over for the 
administrative offices of the City Board; is that correct?

A No. It's used for -- it's been one of the chief 
buildings in this joint operation.

Of course, as soon as this terminates out here, 
it will again house the senior high school. That’s the 
only thing we have for it.

Q But at least for the last year or the last three 
years --

A Two years.
Q Two years?
A Two years; right.
Q And certainly for one more year they will be

utilizing the Clarksdale-Coahoma School?
A Of course, now, that's just simply about an even 

swap off. We swap off, oh, so many senior high students and 
get back about the same number of county junior high.

Q I don't know that I -- 
Would you repeat that?

A Well, we have somewhere, of course, approaching 
450 or 500 senior high whites going out here. We have 
somewhere around 350 to 400 junior high county pupils coming
in here.



109

Q Could you possibly, if the situation warranted, 
take back all of those 500 high school students into the 
Bobo High School?

A All of our plans, of course, were predicated upon 
that very thing.

Q Your plans for the future --
A All of our plans which we submitted to this

Court --
Q -- were predicated upon everyone using the 

Clarksdale-Coahoma School?
A No. All of our plans -- every one is predicated 

entirely upon the utilization of these plants at this area, 
senior high and junior high.

Q But you're really not planning to bring those 
students back in the next year into the Bobo High School?

A Well, what else could we do?
Q I don't know. I'm just asking what your plans

are.
A Well, of course, the plans to this Court and to 

plaintiffs' counsel concerning, of course, utilization of 
this plant -- that's the only one which the Municipal 
Separate District Board of Trustees owns. It does not own 
this in any shape, fashion or form.



110

Q Well, just clear this up for me: It's my
understanding that this Clarksdale-Coahoma School is 
operated by a joint board --

A That's correct.
Q -- composed of both your Clarksdale Board and the 

County Board.
A That's correct.
Q So, you are not entirely certain, if I may say so, 

as to what is going to happen to this school in the future; 
is that correct?

A Well, of course, we have the case here of one 
Board owning this plant --

Q Right.
A -- and another Board owning this.
Q But the Board that owns the Clarksdale plant is

partly the same Board that runs this school?
A Well, the Clarksdale Board owns, of course, 

nothing about this structure. This structure was constructed 
entirely by the county.

Q All right. Let's go on to something else.
Looking through your Maps 1, 2, 3 and 4, it seems 

that the main dividing line for your districts -- certainly

Of course, any continued use --



Ill

the high school and the junior high school, and to a great 
extent the elementary school -- is the Illinois Central 
Railraod track --

A That's true.
Q -- which runs from the northeast --
A Southwest.
Q -- corner down toward the southwest corner?
A That's right.
Q Now, could you tell us how the Board came to use 

these tracks as the main dividing line, applying the 
standards that you indicated?

A Right.
Well, simply, your buildings are located, of 

course, in the geographic areas.
Now, if you have two high schools in a school 

district, if one is located in a northerly area and one in a 
southerly, of course, your first concern there would be 
simply to say this: "We have two high schools. We have
students, of course, enough for the two high schools, and 
how to divide them so we don't gerrymander the lines and 
make it look as if we tried to exclude these and include 
those."

We don't just simply use a surveyor's transit and



112

let the line be there.
This line, of course, simply virtually bisects the 

School District into roughly equal halves.
Q And, in other words, it was more a line of 

convenience that would --
A I wouldn't say it was convenience. I simply would

not.
This, of course, is what you might call a 

historical boundary line. It s been here many, many years. 
I suppose over a half century.

Q To what extent is it a historical boundary line 
as far as school zones are concerned?

A You don't have many, of course, cross sections, 
mean access streets and the like that crosses it. They are 
very limited in number.

Q Isn't it a matter of fact that the major 
thoroughfares that go from the north to the south -- there 
are viaducts under the

A We have one at Desoto.
Q Aren't there a couple others throughout the --
A There's one at Riverside -- this point.
Q Isn't there an overpass or so along the --
A There is one right at the heart of the downtown



area.

113

There's one also at Issaquena.
I can't see the map.
It's about here.

Q Now, is it a further fact that prior to the 
adoption of this new set of zone lines that students were 
assigned in such a fashion, following the biracial 
assignment, -- in other words, the policy before -- that 
required them to go back and forth across these tracks?

Isn't that correct?
A A very minimum number.
Q Well, for example, all of the --

I think if we haven't established it perhaps we 
can establish it now -- that the zone --

There are a great number of whites in this area; 
isn't that correct?

A Yes.
Q In that Zone E 1-C?
A A great number.
Q What is that?
A Yes.
Q Now, going to high school, either at the Bobo High 

School or, in recent years, up to the Clarksdale-Coahoma



114

High School, of necessity, required all white children to 
cross over this line, to cross over this railroad track?

A Well, of course, going to this school, they 
chiefly go in cars out to the highway here and around like 
that.

Now, if they came here, when they came here, they 
did use one or the other of the viaducts.

Q And there were other whites, I believe, located in 
maybe an area over in the upper section of Zone E 1-A, --

A That zone; yes.
Q -- who would also have to cross the railroad 

tracks?
A The older students; yes.
Q Now, in the past -- at present, as a matter of 

fact -- all of the Negro schools, when they were still 
designated as Negro schools, --

A Right.
Q -- were south of the railroad track?
A Yes.
Q Isn't that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Then any Negro child who happened to live to the 

north of the tracks also was assigned to a school requiring



115

that he come under a viaduct or come over the track or 
some --

A Right.
He chose to do so.
I don't know of a single case in which any 

transfer came up.
Q If he went --
A Not during my tenure.
Q If a Negro child lived up here, went to school in 

the city system, when he got to the high-school age, it was 
necessary for him to cross across the Illinois Central 
tracks to get down to the Higgins High School?

A Right.
Q As a further example of the same kind of thing 

under the old system, we have the Tallahatchie Branch of the 
Illinois Central Railroad track that kind of bisects the 
southern --

A That's right.
Q -- portion of the town?
A Yes.
Q Now, you indicated, I believe, in your earlier 

testimony that there were a large number -- there are 
substantial numbers -- of Negroes living over in what are



116

designated the Elementary Zones E 2-A and E 2-B?
A Right.
Q Now, in order for them, when they reached high- 

school age, to get over to the Higgins High School, they 
also had to come across the railroad tracks or under 
underpasses?

A Right.
At this underpass right at this point.

Q Yes.
A State Street.
Q And, as a matter of fact, even under the present 

plan, it would be necessary, assuming all children in the 
lower section of town, in the southern section of town, 
meaning that section below the main Illinois Central tracks 
-- when they reach high-school age, they certainly would 
have to come -- if they were living west of the Tallahatchie 
Branch tracks, would have to come -- across those tracks or 
under a viaduct or something to get to the Higgins School?

A White; colored; yellow. White, black or yellow.
No discrimination.

Q I'm just --
A Yes.
Q That's the issue here, but I was just wondering



117

about the Negro children who lived over here. They would 
also have to come under the tracks?

A The white also, and Chinese and other races.
Q Now, I think we have established that all of the

schools prior to the preparation of this new plan, all of 
the schools above the railroad tracks, were designated as 
white schools?

A True. True.
Q Now, is this correct: All of the schools south of

the railroad tracks, with one exception, are designated as 
Negro schools or were designated as Negro schools?

A Previously were.
Q Previously designated as Negro schools?
A Right.
Q Now, north of the railroad tracks almost the whole 

population is white?
A Predominantly; yes.
Q Well, as a matter of fact, I understand that there 

are only a few spots where there are Negro families living 
north of the railroad tracks, and I don't know whether your 
late studies would have indicated this, but I understand 
they have moved out or have been moved out in recent weeks.

Are you aware of that?



118

A

noticed

Q

No; not to my knowledge.
I have seen one place near the gym in which I 

some houses had been removed, but --
That's one of the places that I was thinking

about.
A Yes.

I have seen that in passing.
Over here, -- and I am referring now to the area 

just above the Illinois Central Railroad tracks -- on North 
Edwards Avenue, just close to the city line, I understand 
along North Edwards there, along Coahoma Street and a few of 
the other streets running there, there are or there were a 
few Negroes who have also moved away in recent weeks.

A No.

/ T r
Q Were you aware of that?
A No.
Q You indicated that your principals had performed 

had come back from their vacations and performed --a 
study --

A Right.
Q -- as to exactly where the pupils lived.
A The first week of July.
Q Would there be anything in the study that would



119

reflect of the Negroes' movement from this little patch 
here?

A Possibly so.
If so, I think they have knowledge of it.

Q That would not be in your report that they 
prepared for you?

A Well, I don't have it with me, but if there are 
changes in here I'm sure they would be in the files of the 
Negro administrators.

Q Now, one further thing along that same line: I
understand until recent weeks the city limits of Clarksdale 
at this same point along North Edwards Avenue and just east 
of Coahoma continued out for a fairly good distance, and 
then the East Second Street also continued out toward North 
Edwards, so that they formed a sort of a triangular area of 
land, in which triangular area there were Negro families -- 
there were and are Negro families -- living. It is my 
understanding in recent weeks the city has turned this 
property back over to the county and that on this map and on 
the city maps it is no longer referred to as part, of the 
city and, therefore, not part of the School District.

Can you enlighten me as to whether that is
accurate?



120

A I have no positive information. I will say I ' 
noticed in the paper certainly the addition of some 
property, omission of other, but I didn’t check it out to 
fully identify it.

Q Then the information I have about this could be --
A It could be.
Q -- could well be -- correct?
A It could be.
Q Then could you confirm, based on the studies they 

prepared even in early July, my conclusion that there are 
very few, if any, Negroes still residing north of the main 
Illinois Central Railroad track?

A So far as I understand, there are some Negroes in 
this area northeast and about, and, of course, quite a few 
in here. I don’t know what number.

Q Now, what is the basis of that understanding?
A Just simply common knowledge.

So far as I know, Negro children have always 
resided in this pattern. Not a great many. I would say 
chiefly perhaps children of retainers, maids and house boys 
and the like, families in that area and about in here.

I have had no knowledge that they have moved.
Q But it is possible that if movement occurred,



121

particularly subsequent to July, that you would not know 
about it?

A It's possible. It's possible.
Q Let's drop down south of the main railroad 

tracks again and look first at this Zone E 1-C, which I 
believe is the zone for the Eliza Clark --

A Right.
Q -- School?
A Right.
Q Now, you indicated, I believe, this is a

predominantly white neighborhood in this zone?
A I don't recall whether that question was asked or 

not, but it is.
Q Now, as a matter of fact, my studies indicate, and 

I would like you to confirm, if you can, to enlighten me, 
that only whites live within the zone drawn here.

A I don't have --
Q Let me correct that
A Yes.
Q -- and let me say there are no Negroes living 

within this zone.
A I have no up-to-date information on that, but I 

would say traditionally this has been what you would call a



122

white residential zone.
Now, it's, of course, developing industrially and 

commercially, chiefly commercially, and when property shifts 
like that you don't know which group will move out and which 
will move in.

Q Well, you were indicating the standards for 
drafting the School Board lines, and I notice that the 
eastern line of Zone E 1-C seems to follow a southerly 
direction from the railroad tracks down along what is 
designated here as Wilson --

A Avenue.
Q -- Avenue.
A Extended. Right.
Q Now, can you tell us what were the standards that 

caused you to draw that line?
A Of course, one, the size of this building; two, 

for the
Q Let me point --
A -- structural addition.
Q I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Could we point to the location of the Eliza Clark
School?

A Just about where the "E" is; right about here.



123

Q Would the record accurately show pointing where 
the "E" is places it just about perhaps a half inch from 
the - -

I guess it's just across the street, the closest
point,

A Simmons Street.
Q -- from where the boundary line is drawn down 

Wilson Avenue.
A Of course, I have these --
Q Two hundred.
A Two hundred feet; yes.
Q I guess my question is: In view of the closeness

of the Eliza Clark School to the Wilson Avenue boundary, 
could you explain how or why the line was drawn at Wilson 
Avenue?

A Of course, we have to back up to the capacity of 
the school, its structural addition; the fact that that 
school has been overcrowded for three years, and we've had 
to shift pupils, of course, away from it; the fact that 
certainly during the next two years we're going to have to 
accommodate some north --

Q Isn't it --
A --in here.



124

Q I'm sorry.
Isn't it correct that at least now more than two 

years ago the Eliza Clark was listed as having only 20 
students more than the capacity, basing the capacity on 30 
students per grade?

A Of course, we transferred them to hold that down.
I'm positive about that information.

Q But, assuming my information on that is correct, 
then the Eliza Clark would be a lot less crowded than were 
a few of the Negro schools, principally, I believe,
Booker T. Washington, which had between a hundred and fifty 
and 200 over the maximum, basing the maximum on 30 pupils 
per class; isn't that correct?

A Well, of course, you're saying things about which 
I have no immediate knowledge. I can't assume those.

But we have temporary crowding at various and 
sundry schools that can occur. Of course, as quickly as 
possible we posture to it by working children in a dual area 
that's less crowded or constructing rooms.

Q Now, we understand, of course, you indicated in 
your earlier testimony that when you were drawing these 
lines the Board was completely color-blind, and maybe 
perhaps because of that you didn't notice that the dividing



line between this traditionally white community in Zone 
E 1-C and the Negro community in Zone E 1-B happens to go 
right down that Wilson Avenue; isn't that correct?

A Of course, we were concerned about homogeneity of 
communities.

Q I'm sorry. What was that?
A Homogeneity.
Q I see.

Would that homogeneous concern be based on race?
A No; not necessarily at all.
Q What other factors?
A Simply residents, of course, is one.
Q Now, these --
A In other words, we have integrated housing all 

about, and all about. Whether it is in this zone at the 
moment, I couldn't say; but I certainly anticipate there 
will be in a matter of weeks, if not now.

Q Well --
A I couldn't say at all there's no integrated 

housing in here now, which is all expected to be.
Q The --
A This zone, --
Q I'm sorry.

125



126

A -- you note --
Q I'm sorry, sir.
A Yes.
Q You are not indicating to me there are any 

substantial number of Negroes at all living in Zone E 1-C, 
are you?

I don't know for a fact.
Didn't your principals' survey show that?

A I don't know.
Q Now, we had studies prepared for the city, I 

understand, about two years ago, and even then they showed 
this as a completely white area.

We drove through all of this area. We saw no
Negroes.

We surveyed this area. We found no Negroes in
this area.

We found no whites in the adjoining area, E 1-B.
Now, if that information and those observations 

are incorrect, I should like for you --
A We had whites from Area E 1-B call the office, 

saying they were in this zone; simply heard rumors, of 
course, about lines and the like there, even though we 
haven't published them.



12 7

Q But this is predominantly --
A But those things get about.
Q E 1-B is predominantly a Negro area?
A I would say so; yes.
Q How about --
A I have had no Negro patrons call me from here.
Q I see.
A Of course, that is not proof that they are not in

here.
Q Do you --
A I cannot say for a fact there are Negroes in here.

I can say there are whites in here.
Q Going back to this Wilson Avenue boundary, it is 

correct, isn't it, sir, that on the western half of that 
boundary whites reside in great numbers and on the eastern 
side Negroes reside in great numbers?

A That's my understanding; right.
Q Now, is there any other explanation for drawing 

the line down Wilson Avenue, then, sir, than the fact that 
you wanted to assign all whites to the Eliza Clark School 
and you wanted to assign all Negroes to the Booker T. 
Washington School?

A Number 1, the capacity of this building; Number 2,



the fact it's going to have to pick up pupils for several 
years in the northern area, possibly pupils that are not 
affected elsewhere, not affected by the accelerating steps 
of the plans that may be adopted; the fact, of course, that 
we have no way of knowing how long we can use how many 
classrooms in there.

The School Board, for several years, of course, 
pondered, on official information, whether or not it would 
have to abandon the school at Year A or Year B or Year C.
We cannot tie long-range plans to it in any sense of 
confidence for fear that the structural deformation and 
deterioration may worsen to the point where the building 
gets condemned.

Now, we hope, of course, to keep every classroom 
possible in service. You naturally do. You have ten to 
$15,000 tied up in each classroom -- a minimum. Every time 
you lose a classroom, of course, you're hurt, hurt in the 
pocketbook.

Now, the capacity of this building, the physical 
condition in which it is and the fact, of course, it's 
going to have to catch children for at least a year or two 
years, we suppose, are facts which we have to consider.

Q But, nevertheless, the Booker T. Washington down

128



129

here and the Negro school in Zone E 1-B, which is Myrtle 
Hall, --

A Myrtle Hall.
Q -- are much more overcrowded than the Eliza Clark 

School; isn't that correct?
A They have not been for the last three years.

We have transferred pupils from this school the 
year just closed, --

Q Let me --
A -- the year of '63-'64.
Q In view of the information which you have just 

given, would you just explain one further factor -- and that 
is the boundary line along Wilson Avenue is not even a 
main street?

Wilson Avenue is not a paved road. In some 
sections it's just dirt-paved, --

A It's paved partially.
Q -- and in other parts it's just sort of a rut 

through grassy area.
A Yes.
Q Now, adding that further fact to the things we 

have already discussed, is there any further reason or 
justification why the line should have been drawn along



130

there, except for the fact that whites live on one side and 
Negroes live on the other?

A No. We stated this morning, of course, that 
these are well-defined historical markers or boundary lines, 
that this is one subdivision, this another subdivision, --

Q In other words, --
A -- and the like.
Q -- this historically, even under the old system, 

was the boundary line --
A Subdivisions.
Q -- between the white school district and the 

Negro school district?
A Subdivisions.
Q Let's look at this boundary line down in the

southern part of Zone E 1-C.
Now, that line, unlike the Wilson Avenue line, is 

along a main artery?
A Yes.
Q It's along Highway --
A 61.
Q -- 61?
A Right.
Q Now, it also, as I understand it, divides again



131

the Negro community which lives south of the highway?
A There's no --

I think possibly there are two or three pupils in 
this total area south of the highway.

Yes. If you come out here on Wissler Street to 
the Highway 49, up here, there are no children in this 
entire commercial and industrial zone except one or two up 
here who maybe live -- I don't know whether they live in a 
partial commercial building or what.

I had no knowledge of any children in there Until 
someone stated he found, I think, two children or three. I 
do not know which color they were. That wasn't pertinent, 
of course, to the map.

Q Assuming our information is correct, that there 
are children who are here and there are children here who 
are Negro, they, too, with this boundary line being drawn 
along Highway 61, for this distance, and this distance only, 
would be excluded from going to the Eliza Clark School; 
isn't that correct?

A That's true, but when this map was drawn we had 
absolutely no knowledge -- neither I nor any of my 
assistants -- Negro or white -- that there were any children 
south of this highway in this entire zone.



132

The only children south of the highway, of course, 
are east of Highway 49 -- in that direction.

Q And they have to come down here to --
A No; no. They go to school right here, just two

blocks away at most, --
Q I see.
A --at Myrtle Hall,
Q I see.
A -- right here, which adjoins the Highway 61.
Q On the north side of the highway?
A Right at that point.
Q Then, to kind of sum up again, the schools below

the railroad, south of the railroad, are all Negro schools 
with the exception of Eliza Clark and Eliza Clark is in a 
zone which, as it is presently zoned for your plans, would 
encompass only, have only, white children there?

A The elementary, of course, would; but, of course,
don't lose sight of the fact that this entire area, 
encompassing hundreds of whites throughout the entire 
number of zones, five elementary zones, of course, is tied 
to Higgins High School.

You have hundreds of elementary pupils -- some 
250 or 60; we have over 200 high school students also south



133

of this railroad, which, of course, are tied to Higgins. 
That's white students.

Q Now, what you're saying now is that, while my 
estimate is correct as to Negro students all being contained 
within Negro schools, what were formerly Negro schools, 
there are whites still living in Negro zones --

A No.
I Q -- or zones which are --
A We have Negroes north of the railroad.
Q Well, if there are any up there, you have 

indicated that they are in very small numbers?
A Not great numbers; no.
Q Well, there are a few areas south of the line 

where there are fairly substantial segments of the white --
A Right.
Q -- population?
A Right. In fact, hundreds of them.
Q Now, with this in mind and based on the studies

you and your principals made and the other studies which I 
am sure you made in connection with this plan, when this 
plan is placed into effect as to the first grade or as to 
the first and second grades, can you tell us how many 
students, how many Negro students primarily, will be



134

assigned to schools that prior to desegregation were 
designated as white schools?

A I have no way of knowing that. Of course, when 
you have your registration, then you'll find out; but 
families move about in the summer and, of course, we simply 
could not say.

We actually --
Q I know you wouldn't be able to give me an 

accurate figure, --
A Yes.
Q -- but don't you have an estimate, a rough 

estimate, based on the studies you have made, as to how 
much desegregation can be expected in the first grade if the 
Court orders the first grade desegregated this fall under 
your plan?

A No. We simply -- in fact, when we drew these 
boundaries and the like, it was just simply the knowledge 
of the Board and the will of the Board that who's ever in 
these areas -- they're just simply in there; and, of course, 
the Board hasn't sought to mitigate the effect of it or 
anything of the sort.

Of course, now, the Board recognizes it cannot 
compel students to attend a given school. It says, of



135

course, "If you live in a particular zone, you attend that 
school or else."

Of course, it can't make them. The children or 
their parents may make another choice, in choosing to stay 
home.

But the School Board, in all good conscience and 
good faith, has simply set these zones so that children in 
every zone -- as his grade is reached, he becomes tied to 
the school in his zone -- period. There's no relief from 
that so far as this School Board is concerned.

Q But you don't have any estimates, even rough 
estimates, as to how many people would be involved in what 
would amount to desegregated assignments at this point?

A No; we haven't.
Q When is registration?

THE COURT: Let me interrupt right here.
Based on the figures you came up with, the 

approximate figures you came up with, in July, do you have 
an estimate, assuming that those figures remain constant, 
as to how many Negro pupils in one grade would go into 
schools under this plan where white children have gone?

THE WITNESS: No. I have not made that estimate
or count.



136

THE COURT: You didn't carry it down to that
point?

THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I did do the converse. I checked on

the number of whites involved who would be assigned to Negro 
schools, and they ran between 50 and 60.

We had white parents calling us. We checked on
them.

We did not have Negro parents calling us. We did 
not check it.

THE COURT: All right.
By Mr. Bell:

Q You indicated --
MR. BELL: l'm sorry.
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
By Mr. Bell:

Q Now that you mention that, about white parents 
calling, you indicated you made a fairly good study of the 
problems that come about as a result of the Board's 
efforts or requirements to desegregate the schools. What 
study, if any, have you given to the effect of private 
schools set up as a result of state tuition grants on the



137

operation of the public schools?
A We made no study whatsoever. In fact, we don't 

know how many will be set up, reading the newspapers 
concerning this school or that school or the other; but 
that statute, counsel advised the School Board, myself, 
strictly says !!hands off" to the School Board and the 
school officials, that we're to have nothing to do with it. 
We simply are to completely exclude ourself from any 
request or anything at all like that.

Q I understand --
A Therefore, we --
Q -- you are not to help
A That's right.
Q -- in the administration of the private schools.
A Right.
Q But I was wondering whether you had made any study 

as to what effect the operation of the private schools under 
the state tuition program would have on the operation of 
your public schools.

A The only thing we have done --we have sought to
find out the pupils who would intend to -- of course, that
was in the preregistration last spring -- the pupils who 
intend to attend public school; and, of course, we set up



138

that information last spring.
Now, since that time, of course, we're under a 

temporary court order. We know nothing now as to what has 
happened; won't know until we register all pupils and 
determine that, --

Q I think --
A -- the situation.
Q I think I cut you off before. I was about to ask 

you: When is the new registration date?
A We have a tentative date set for Monday,

August 24th. Of course, that awaits the pleasure of this 
Court.

Q Now, at that time I assume you would find out both 
how many, if any, Negroes were assigned to previously white 
schools under your plan and how many whites were assigned to 
previously Negro schools.

A Well, I would assume that that information would 
be available, but so far as I and the School Board are 
concerned we have no interest, no curiosity or anything of 
the sort.

Once we solve a problem, of course, we have to 
live with it for better or for worse.

Q Well, you have probably noted, have you not, that



139

there have been advertisements in the Clarksdale Press- 
Register, in other words, about there will be private 
schools that go into effect at the First Baptist Church and 
that these schools are accepting applications and have 
received perhaps 45 or 50 applications?

Have you seen that?
A I have seen news articles that I didn't more than 

simply scan maybe two or three lines.
Q Are they generally to the effect as I have 

indicated, as far as you remember?
A Well, I'm a member of the Baptist Church myself.

I have no knowledge, of course, of any number such as you 
have there.

Q You did indicate, though, that the number of 
students that you estimate, white students, who would be 
assigned to schools that were once Negro was approximately 
45 or 50 in the first grade?

A Well, I said possibly 50 to 60.
Q Fifty to 60.

And under your plan, of course, you indicate no 
transfers --

A Right.
Q -- would be involved?



140

A In fact, that's the heart of the whole thing. If 
you started transferring, you're back in court. In fact, 
you couldn't administer a plan like that. You just wouldn't 
have a plan.

Q Have you received any phone calls at all, 
Superintendent Tynes, from white parents who indicated that 
they saw they were going to be in what was a Negro school 
zone and that they were planning to send their children to 
that Negro zone?

Have you received any contact from the parents?
A I have had, I think, two calls myself. Of course, 

I couldn't say as to the staff. I think I have had two, 
which are the only ones which I have knowledge of, two 
persons, two parents.

Q And what was their observations to you?
A Well, of course, they simply expressed 

dissatisfaction in being placed in such a zone.
One of them said he thought he'd bring suit 

against the School Board. Of course, not being a counsel,
I couldn't advise him to or not to and just had to listen.

Q Was the other parent's statement pretty much of 
the same effect?

A This other parent actually made this statement:



141

He said, "I wouldn't object so much if my child had a white 
teacher," and he just thought for just a moment. He said,
"I hate to think about my child going to a teacher who will 
not understand him, will know nothing about his background 
and the like."

He was not an angry person at all. He was more, 
you might say, one who felt hurt.

Q How about --
A But he showed no, I'd say, resentment.
Q What provision does the plan make for students 

who are entering the system for the first time above the 
first grade?

A We wouldn't discriminate against them. We 
wouldn't attempt to penalize them. Of course, the same 
standards would apply to them as the children in the system.

Q Well --
A The School Board weighed that. It could not see 

it would be fair and equitable and just to unduly penalize 
them by accelerating them or delaying them or anything else.

Q I don't think that --
My question is as to students who are coming in 

above the level where desegregation is then occurring.
A Yes.



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143

school in their zone, of course, they would have that 
choice. Any pupil would have, my understanding, if he 
chose to accelerate himself in his own zone, as long as he 
doesn't cross his zone or go somewhere else.

Q I don't know whether I --
Accelerate himself in his own zone?

A That's right.
In other words, if he's in a given zone and his 

grade has not yet been caught, --
Q Yes.
A -- I would presume there that if he wanted to 

attend a desegregated school in his zone perhaps --
Of course, I haven't thought through that. I do 

not have perfect knowledge there. That hasn't come up.
Q But generally the plan and policy would be --
A Would be
Q -- to assign a child --
A In other words, he would simply remain tied to -■
Q The old system until the new system caught up to

his grade?
A He would remain tied to his zone until his grade 

was reached.
Q You indicated that, while you had understood the



144

orders of the Court on this subject, based on your 
experience that you preferred segregated schools --

A That's right.
Q -- and gave some reasons for that.
A Yes.
Q Now, as a matter of fact, in preparing these lines 

and policies, has there been an effort, based on your belief 
that this is the best educational method, an attempt, to 
retain as much as possible the features of the old and for 
you preferred system?

A We did not have that choice.
We wanted a court order, temporary order, simply 

to become color-blind, and, of course, our counsel so 
instructed us. The Civil Rights Bill, of course, further 
came along and accented it. Consequently, we have drawn 
these boundary lines as I have testified this morning. We 
had to draw them just as though no such thing as a racial 
problem existed.

Q But you drew the main boundary for the whole 
system down the railroad tracks although that had not been 
the boundary before and even though most of the whites in

the community live above those tracks and most of the 
Negroes live below; is that correct?



145

A If you have a high school in the northern part of 
town and one in the southern, if you'd draw any other 
boundary than that, wouldn't it be open to question that 
somebody was attempting to circumvent or evade or something 
of the sort?

Q I don't know. You are the expert.
I would think that a line perpendicular through

the community would prevent the necessity of people 
traveling from this end of town up to this end of town and 
vice versa, but I was just wondering about how the lines 
were actually drawn. You indicated they were color-blind.

A Right.
Q Yet you have drawn this main line that pretty

well divides the white community in Clarksdale and the 
Negro community, and then you have further drawn a line in 
this Zone E 1-C that effectively isolates into a white 
school a great majority of the whites who are living down 
south of the railroad tracks; isn't that correct?

A Well, I wouldn't say so in those words; not at
all.

First of all, you have to, of course, do some 
line drawing if you're going to have a neighborhood school 
system, which the Board, of course, fully expected to have,



146

as we set forth in testimony this morning, and now a line 
must be drawn somewhere.

It, of course, could be drawn perpendicular to 
here, and immediately, of course, counsel for the plaintiff 
would say, "Look at this. This discriminates right and 
left."

Consequently, we drew a line here that we believe 
will stand any fair and equitable examination anywhere.

We say this line, of course, to use the expression 
that the people use, hurts hundreds of people.

Q In your studies of the plan --
And you indicated you had concluded that the best 

place to start desegregation was at the first grade?
A That's right.
Q And you gave the reasons for that?
A Right.
Q Now, in your studies or otherwise, had you come 

across school districts where desegregation was begun at 
the twelfth grade?

A Yes.
Q And have you also been advised of court orders

that have required desegregation to begin at the twelfth 
grade?



A I don't know if I have heard that, but I have 
talked with schoolmen at professional meetings, and, of 
course, they pointed out these, I suppose you would say, 
physical disturbances, behavior problems, in bringing in 
older students where the patterns of segregation had long 
prevailed and how it was quite difficult for those students 
to adjust, and frequently teachers -- in fact, I heard one 
school principal testify that his teachers, instead of being 
enabled henceforth to teach, had to spend their time 
attempting to solve pupil-conflict problems, behavior 
problems.

Q In that context, sir, could you give what 
decisions you had made and the Board had made with regard to 
recent decisions of the Court of Appeals for this circuit 
that require desegregation to work from both ends?

In other words, they considered the advantages of 
the first-grade start that you mentioned in your direct 
testimony; they considered certain other advantages that the 
school boards who had advocated the twelfth-grade start had 
offered, and they suggested and have ruled and required that 
desegregation start both at Grades 1 and 2 and maybe 10 and 
12.

Could you make any comment on that?

147



Did you have any discussion on that?
A We, of course --

MR. LUCKETT: If the Court please, I would like to
say here we developed this plan as a result of this Court's 
order, which says that we develop it one grade a year. We 
either start at the top or bottom and not at both lines.

MR. BELL: I just --
THE COURT: Well, the Court order said a minimum

of one year, as I recall the language that was used,
Mr. Luckett.

You may go ahead.
MR. BELL: I'm just asking whether or not there

was any discussion of these decisions.
THE WITNESS: We, of course, looked at those

situations, and I talked with some schoolmen. I would say 
uniformly, without a single exception, I have heard no 
schoolman state other than this: That when you bring
together older students, without the prior preparation, 
conflict is going to ensue, and if you don't watch it -- 
in fact, they say it's inevitable -- that, instead of 
teaching school, you'll wind up keeping school, more or less 
policing school, and, of course, that would mean a complete 
impairment of the educational process.

148



149

By Mr. Bell:
Q As part of your studies, did you review the 

plaintiffs in this case, who they were and the grade levels 
and

A Yes. We looked and, of course, we found several 
things quite significant.

We noticed that some of these plaintiffs had never 
attended a public school.

We noticed that some of these plaintiffs, of 
course, did not live in our School District.

We found other plaintiffs who lived in the 
district, but who were not bona fide residents. Their 
parents were elsewhere.

In fact, we have a number of plaintiffs in this 
lawsuit who have no right in the world to be heard before 
this Court or any other court in the land.

Q That was what your conclusion was on it; isn't 
that correct?

A That's as legal a conclusion as counsel, of 
course, can give to anyone, and, of course, we understand 
the laws of Mississippi. They apply to the students who are 
entitled to come and register in the various schools.

Q But you didn't give any consideration to



150

permitting the plaintiffs who had actually brought this suit 
to be assigned to desegregated schools as a method of 
beginning?

A They had, of course, as far as I know, made only 
what I would call simply an informal application through, I 
believe, a petition or some such document as that.

Q On that point, did your attorney perhaps advise 
you, when he was giving you the other advice you told us 
about on direct, that the various courts that would be 
controlling in this situation had indicated that that 
petition was sufficient to place the Board on notice as to 
their desires to have a desegregated education?

A Well, of course, we had no way to know that the 
petition was bona fide or whether it was more or less a 
trial balloon --

Q Did you ever write --
A -- or something of the sort.
Q Did you ever write to the petitioners --
A I did not.
Q --or contact them in any way?
A No.
Q In other words, while the petition was filed last 

year, you waited to hire an attorney and take these other



151

actions until suit was filed
A Yes.

Q -- in April 1964?
A Of course, we were not in court until suit was

filed.

Q Just a few small points: You were talking about
an expected development up in the northeastern

A Yes.

Q -- section of town?
A Right.

Q And you were pointing to areas which seemed to be
outside the city limits

A That's true.

Q -- of Clarksdale?
A Yes.

Q Assuming there would be development outside the
city limits, how would that affect you as a Clarksdale 
schoolman?

A Well, of course, this area of the western part of 
the city just two or three years ago was outside the city 
limits. I think it's a matter of fact that most 
developments occur outside the city limits, or at least 
they frequently do. I couldn't say that more of them do



152

than not, but frequently they do.
If you can see up here at the top, there’s quite 

a development in this section already. Numerous homes are 
constructed up here.

This area, where the city has recently extended 
out in this area, has just simply undergone, I would say, a 
development of 30 homes, and that territory has been taken 
into the city, sometime during the calendar year of *64.

Q I see.
A And, so, that's more or less traditionally 

expected.
Q In the expectation of this development you are 

planning to build a new school, North Clarksdale?
A Right.

It will be somewhere up in this area in here,
about as nearly a central point as possible, --

Q And in the meantime --
A --to get away from the commercial and business

zone.
Q But in the meantime students, the few who are 

outside of this main business area, --
A Yes.
Q -- are coming down and will continue to come down



153

to the Eliza Clark?
A Right.

They have traditionally done so.
The students here east of Desoto, back in the 

pocket in here, have done so.
Q And there are some students who will go across --
A There are.
Q -- here and go
A I don't think there are any in this section in

here. Maybe a scattering. I don't know.
But pupils up in this section and over in here 

have traditionally, of course, come to this school.
Q I see.

And these students over here will continue to come 
across the railroad tracks and go to Eliza Clark?

A We would hope so.
We would view the railroad as less hazardous, as a 

less hazard, than coming through the congested business 
district.

Q I see.
I agree with that.
Could you explain, for the elementary school 

districts, what is the significance of the subdistricts?



154

We have the school attendance zones here.
A Right.
Q What educational or administrative significance 

are the subschool districts?
A Of course, those zones are simply primarily 

administrative conveniences.
We would anticipate this: In the course of years

one zone may become too populated for the children in it. 
It's quite possible we would have to shift a street or a 
block or an area to another zone.

Q I see.
It's more --

A This would give some slight flexibility. It
simply would not completely tie up the hands of the School 
Board to the Court so that every time it made a simple 
administrative decision in order to utilize to the maximum 
its educational facilities it would have to come to court 
for permission.

Q I understand.
A It's just simply what we would attempt to call or

would call good school administration. At least we would 
hope it would be so considered.

MR. BELL: Excuse me just one minute.



155

By Mr. Bell:
Q Now, in this Riverton school area, where the

school is presently under construction --
A Yes.
Q -- and will be completed,
A In here.
Q Right.

-- the racial population there now is predominantly Negro, 
although there are some whites living there; is that 
correct?

A Well, no; we couldn't say that. We would say that 
the pupil population is about two to one in favor of the 
Negroes, maybe slightly higher, but the property, itself, 
the residential area, I expect, would probably be slightly 
more actual territory occupied by whites than by Negroes; 
but I testified this morning that apparently the Negro group 
is simply more prolific. They have more and more children.

Q Well, on this point, you had indicated the 
nature of the structures, the Negro structures, that had 
been built in recent years, and I was wondering perhaps an 
explanation of why it is understood that the Riverton School 
will, unlike most all of the schools in the system, not have 
a separate gymnasium and a cafeteria and auditorium, but



156

will have a combination gym-cafetorium, as it is called 
there.

A We have that same situation out here, Kirkpatrick, 
and, of course, frequently where finances are a 
consideration. In fact, good school administrators over 
the nation, in the universities and colleges, strongly 
question --

Well, let me put it this way: In all of my
construction I have never built an out-and-out gymnasium for 
an elementary school; not in more than 30 years I haven't.

Now, I find some communities which have, but I 
have never participated in it myself.

But we have in this facility what we would call a 
multipurpose room, -- of course, a huge auditorium, larger 
than this courtroom, much larger, of course -- in which we 
design it through construction, our architects, where it 
becomes a cafeteria, with tables that fold into the walls, 
completely out of the way. It becomes a gymnasium, with two 
basketball courts in it. It becomes an auditorium with a 
folding stage. We call that, of course, getting the 
maximum functional value out of a building.

Q Now, you say there's one other school that has a 
similar type of --



157

A It has a combination gymnasium and auditorium.
Now, it does have a small cafeteria.

Q I see.
A It has a separate small cafeteria.
Q I take it the other schools have --
A It was constructed before I came, incidentally.
Q I see.

The other schools, I take it, each have separate 
facilities for each of these activities -- gym, auditorium, 
cafeteria?

A I believe that they have; that is right. I 
believe they have.

Q On this criteria, just to close this out, you had 
indicated this morning a large number of criteria on 
assignments or drawing zones which resulted in assignments, 
including race and sex and --

A Not race. We have excluded that.
Q Well --
A Color and race, national origin, religion -- you 

have to exclude them.
THE COURT: My recollection --
THE WITNESS: Under the civil rights --
THE COURT: -- of his testimony that may have led



158

to this question was that there were, as he understood it, 
acceptable criteria for the classification of pupils, -- 

MR. BELL: I think --
THE COURT: -- such as sex,
MR. BELL: -- that was
THE COURT: -- mental ability and what-not.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: That's what I thought he said.
THE WITNESS: Mental ability, achievement,

aptitude, possibly even sex; but, of course, not race or 
color or anything of that sort.

By Mr. Bell:
Q But you used, in drawing your zone lines, the 

standards contained in your plan -- these four main points?
A Those were the basic criteria; right.

MR. BELL: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 
By Mr. Luckett:

Q In referring to the Riverton School, Mr. Tynes, 
can you tell the Court whether or not that is a relatively 
expensive or an inexpensive school?

A This school actually, on a square-foot basis, will



be, I expect, about the second most expensive school in the 
entire district -- certainly since my coming to it.

I would say that the Booker T. Wadiington School 
at this point -- in fact, we so consider it far and away as 
the best elementary school which we have, architecturally, 
functionally, simply the basic construction, all factors 
taken into consideration.

Now, this building is costing right on a par with 
Booker T. Washington.

I indicated this morning when we construct school 
buildings we're color-blind.

I simply testified a moment ago 1 have never 
advised any school board to build separate auditoriums and 
cafeterias and gymnasiums and the like. We can combine 
those functions into a multifunctional unit and get far more 
return on our educational dollar everywhere I have worked.

We have, of course, to watch our dollars very 
carefully in attempting to get the maximum return on each 
educational dollar, whether for building or for operation.

Q Well, to get to the beginning of his cross 
examination, he referred to what is the county school out 
there on the sixteenth section of land --

A Yes.



160

-- and referred to the joint control that the City 
School Board might have over that building.

A Yes.
Q Will the City School Board have any control 

whatsoever over that building after the end of this coming 
school year?

A It’s my understanding it will have absolutely
none.

Q All right, sir.
He's also discussed in detail the east boundary 

line of Zone E 1-C, elementary zone, that we call the 
Eliza Clark District, and he referred to it as being an 
ill-defined path on the east side.

A Yes.
Q Is it not true that, we'll say, this latter part 

of this east line, that is, the southerly part of this line, 
comes right down the middle of Mississippi Street -- 

A It does.
Q -- or Mississippi Avenue?
A It does.
Q And Mississippi Avenue is a paved street, is it

not?
A Yes.



161

Q Is it not a prominent street in Clarksdale?
A Right.
Q Is it not true --

MR. BELL: I don't think he has to lead the
witness, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. BELL: I think he's doing pretty good without

that.
THE COURT: Let's don't lead him.
MR. LUCKETT: All right.
By Mr. Luckett:

Q Mr. Tynes, can you tell the Court if it is true or 
not true that white people live on both sides of Mississippi 
Avenue, along that line right there, that is, the dividing 
line of that zone?

A That's my understanding.
Q In other words, do you mean to say that there are 

whites right across the street from that line?
A That is true.
Q And also north of this line --
A Yes.
Q -- right in here?
A Right.



162

Q Had that line been zigzagged here, could those 
whites have been brought into that zone?

A They could have.
Q By zigzagging it in a westerly direction, could 

they leave the whites out of that zone?
A Yes.

That simply was done in order to follow the 
streets and not the color bar. It was drawn in that sense 
and the whites were excluded.

Q And were placed in this Zone E 1-B?
A That1s true.

MR. LUCKETT: That's all, sir.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. BELL: No recross.
THE COURT: All right.
Mr. Tynes, let me ask you one or two questions in 

comparison between your plans.
You say you prefer Plan 2, which would delay 

desegregation until the beginning of the second semester of 
the oncoming school year or until the so-called Riverton 
School building is available for use?

THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: How



163

have Riverton, the one that's under construction now, as 
their school be handled between now and the end of the first 
semester?

THE WITNESS: Our principals are, of course,
working on that now, organizing classes and teachers, and, 
of course, they will attempt to house them at Booker T.; 
possibly some even here at Myrtle Hall, where we have some 
room. It's possible.

THE COURT: If I understand Plan 2, the one that
is the favored plan, as presented by you and for the School 
Board, once desegregation would begin under that plan it 
would proceed at the rate of two per year?

THE WITNESS: Plan 2 would have two grades
January; then for the next four years three, four, five and 
six, and then all of junior high, all of senior high. A 
total of six years from September 1964 would see all 12 
grades desegregated, whereas under Plan 1 a total of seven 
years would be required.

The School Board willingly and voluntarily, in 
good faith, has done two things in Plan 2 over Plan 1 -- 
and, of course, even Plan 1 went further than the Court had

THE WITNESS: May I --
THE COURT: How would those pupils destined to



164

directed. It went six years and then jumped three and 
three.

Now, under Plan 2 the School Board voluntarily 
offered to desegregate two grades as soon as this building 
is ready for occupancy in about four months; in other 
words, at the end of the year, this calendar year, about 
January 1.

It has done a second thing there: Instead of
offering to have 12 grades desegregated fully by 1971, it 
moved a year forward, to 1970, which would mean actually, 
just to recap, from the time this suit was filed, April 
the 22nd, 1964, a total of six years, about four months and 
one week would transpire before this entire School District 
would be totally desegregated.

We would submit, your Honor, that to our 
knowledge no other school system, no other school board, in 
this state or any of the others that I know of in the South 
has come forward in its own volition, in good faith, 
recognizing how much it's costing that community in 
agitation, confusion and the like, with a plan that 
accelerated, that advanced.

MR. LUCKETT: If the Court please, may I ask
Mr. Tynes a question here?



165

By Mr. Luckett:
Q If it is delayed until January 1965, Mr. Tynes, 

these pupils in the Riverton zone -- wouldn't they be 
permitted to go to the schools they would otherwise go to --

A That's right.
Q -- if they didn't have a lawsuit?
A We would not bind these children. We would

attempt, of course, to do all that we could in the way of 
taking care of their needs totally and adequately in that 
interim period, but with good faith to carry on here the 
very minute this plan became effective.

Your Honor, if I may, if I could give you a recap 
of these four plans --

THE COURT: I would like to have that.
Do you have copies available for counsel?
MR. LUCKETT: Yes.
THE COURT: Any further questions of this witness?
MR. BELL: No further.
THE COURT: You may stand down, Mr. Tynes.
-Do you have any other evidence to offer for the 

defendants?
MR. LUCKETT: That's all for the School Board,

THE COURT: Yes, sir.



166

sir.

plaintiffs at this time?
MR. BELL: We have no further testimony, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Do you have any evidence for the

We would like to, following the School Board's 
statement, if they have any, just make a statement of what 
we think the applicable law is in regard to the testimony 
which has been given and the plans which have been 
submitted.

THE COURT: Gentlemen, I want to dispose of this
as expeditiously as possible. Things are in limbo now, and 
I recognize fully that a great deal of confusion and 
uncertainty now exists which needs to be resolved as quickly 
as possible. i'll try to make disposition of it this 
afternoon.

Before I conclude this and begin with another 
matter that I have for consideration this afternoon, I am 
going to take a short recess and during that recess I'd like 
to see the attorneys who are in this case in chambers for a 
brief conference off the record.

Court is in recess until 25 minutes of four.



16 7

(Thereupon, at 3:17 p. m., a 28-minute 
recess was taken.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.
There are many factors involved in the approach to 

desegregation in any school. The impact of those factors 
necessarily, because there are no two school districts or 
two school systems alike, is different from district to 
district. Factors which may be of overriding importance in 
one district may be of little concern in another district.

At this time this Court is certainly in no 
position to say to anyone that it has anything like 
approaching complete information about the situation in the 
Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District.

I do not propose to indicate in any way that I am 
prepared at this time to make what anyone could properly 
consider a final disposition of this tremendous problem.

Purely as a tentative and as an interim measure, 
to meet the peculiar situation as I now understand it in 
this case and for this School District, this Court 
tentatively approves the proposed geographical arrangement 
within the boundaries of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate 
School District, that is, with the two principal districts 
for two high schools and two junior high schools and the



168

subdistricts as they are shown on the maps which have been 
filed with the Court, to which reference was made during the 
testimony of the Superintendent of this school system, and 
the Court approves, purely as an interim and a tentative, 
temporary measure, the combination of the two plans 
referred to as Plan 1 and Plan 2, that is to say, with the 
geographical arrangement for attendance centers, elementary 
school zones, desegregation of the first grade is to be 
accomplished with the opening of school for this school 
system in the month of September 1964; that is to say: We
start out with the proposed Plan 1. At the end of the first 
school semester or term of the school year 1964-'65 the 
Court approves for implementation at that time Plan 2, which 
when the Riverton School building now under construction for 
Zone E 2-B is suitable for use Plan 2 will then be approved 
and go into effect.

Again let me repeat, because I want it perfectly 
clear to all who are concerned with this case, that this is 
simply an interim program, subject to complete review and 
reconsideration by the Court as the development of this plan 
that the Court has approved occurs.

Time-wise, I do not think even the Superintendent 
of this school system could make a valid prophecy as to what



169

the effect of this program will be until sometime well along 
into the second semester of the school year 1964-'65, which 
means to say that there probably will be necessary sometime 
after that time another look at how this plan has affected 
primarily the welfare of the educable children who reside 
within the boundaries of this Separate School District.

If counsel can agree on the form of the order to 
be entered at this time, i'll be glad to sign the order when 
it is so jointly agreed.

Failing to agree, the Court will draft its own 
order to carry what I have said from the bench this 
afternoon into effect.

Are there any questions from counsel in this case?
MR. LUCKETT: l'm sure I understand, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Bell?
MR. BELL: Yes, your Honor; I understand.
THE COURT: All right.
The hearing on this case, the Clarksdale school 

case, is recessed.
For the information of counsel, I will be here 

for the remainder of the afternoon, and I will be here 
perhaps all day tomorrow, in Oxford. If you settle the 
form of the order, i'll be available here to sign it. If



170

not, if you will advise me tomorrow that you have not been 
able to agree on the form, I then will undertake to write 
the order myself.

(Thereupon, at 3:53 p. m., the hearing 
was recessed.)



171

/
/

I hereby certify that the foregoing 170 pages, to 
the best of my knowledge, skill and ability, are a true and 
correct transcript of my Stenotype potes of the proceedings 
had on August 19, 1964 at the heading in the case of: 

Rebecca E. Henry, et al,
Plaintiffs, 

v .

The Clarksdale Municipal Separate 
School District, et al,

Defendants,
[vil Action No. DC6428.\

Thî ' 28th day of August 1954.

Official Court Reporter 
United States District' Court 
Northern District of Mississippi