Defendants' Third Set of Interrogatories and Request for Production; Requests for Admission

    o5

RUFUS L. EDMISTEN
ATYORI{EY CEI{ERAL

$tdte of $art\ $.arolina
peparlment ol l)ustice

P. O. BOI t20
RALEIGH

27lm,2-0i,,2e

January L'7 , 1983

Mr. J. Rich Leonard
Clerk of United States District Court
North Carolina Eastern District
Raleigh Division
Post Office Box 25670
Raleigh, North Carolina 27611

Re: Cavanagh, et a1. v. Brock, et aI.
82-545-CrV-5

Dear lt{r. Leonard:

Enclosed please find for filing the transcript
and exhibits from the deposition of Michael S. Michalec
on October L4, L982.

In accordance with Local Rule 3.09, Defendants
are filing these discovery materials for use in the above-
captioned matter.

Thank you for your usual cooperation.

Yours very tru1y,

RUFUS L.
Attorney

JVf,rJr. : rc
Enclosures

cc: Mr. J. Levonne Chambers
Ms. Leslie Winner
Mr. Jack Greenberg
Ivlr. James M. llabritt III
Ms. Lani Guinier
Mr. Arthur J. Donaldson
Mr. Robert N. Hunter, Jr.
Mr. Hamilton C. Ilorton, Jr.
Mr. [Iayne T. E11iot

7



(.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

r6

17

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

f-o

I

ir
I

;r

. IN THE I,]NITED STATES DIS]RICT COURT.FOR fiIE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORIH CAROLIM
MLEIGIT DIVISION

82-545-CrV-5

JOHN J. CAVAMGII, JOHN W. FARE, JOIIN M.
HESTER, RTCHARD V. LTNVTLLE, WTLLTAM W_.

LTNVILLE, JOHN HEI{RY MITRRAY, J. G. NEAL,
ItI. E. NEAL, CHARLES PTERCE, rRANK E.
RHODES, H. GRAY Sl.rArN, ROBERT P. SI{$HER
and W. GMDY SI.IISHER'

PLalntlffs,
VS.

ALEX K. BROCK (Executive DlrecEorr North
Carolina State Board of Electlons) ' ROBER'T

Id . SPEARMAN , MRS . ELLOREE M. Blt ry , E|S .
RLrTH T. SEMASHKO, WILLIAI*I A. MARSH, JR.,
and ROBERT R. BROI{NING (Membere, North
Carolina State. Board of Elecclone),

)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)

]
)
)

Defendants

The depositlon of IIICIIAEL S. HICHALEC was conducred

at 450 NCNB Bui1din5, Winston-Salerc, lriorch Caro1ina, coul-

mencing aC 9:2L orclock B.rn. on llonday, tne 4tn day of

October, 1982.

APPEARANCES OF COI.]NSEL

FOR TIIE PLAINTIFFS: Hanllton C. Horton, Jr., Esq', and
Thornas l{orth, EBg., of the firn of
WHITING HORTON & HENDRICK
450 NCNB Building
Winston-Sa1en, North Carollna 27LOl

fOR THE DEFENDAMS: James M. Wallace, Jr', Esq'
DeputY AttorneY General, and
Tlare B. SnlIeY, EBg.
Asslstant AttorneY General
NC Department of Justlce
Poet bfftce Box 629
Ralelgh, North Carollna 27602

Kathleen Heenan, L8q., of the flrm of
JERRTS LEoNARD & ASSOCTATES, P.C.
900 17Eh Streetl N.W.
I{ashlngton, D.C. 20006

Depoeltlon Servlces, IDc.



]d

("

(,

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

I

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

ao
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page

D.E

STIPULATIONS 3

EXAMINATION

MB.

Mr.

M8.

Mr.

Heenan

Wallace

Sn11ey

Horton

11, 30,

4, 52

63, 75

67

70

ADJOI'RNMENT

REPORTER CERTITICATE

WITNESS CER,TIFICATE

77

78

79

XHIB s

ExhtblE
Exhlblt
Exhiblt

L, 2
3
5

De fendanEs
De fendante
Defendants

44
4s
s9

Offered Identlfled

tl

Depoaltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



(,

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

,r*-rrv_s ao
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 3

STIPULATIONS

Pursuant to consent of the resPectlve partlee, the

deposLtion of MICHAEL S. MIC}IALEC was taken before Ctrarlotte

M. Perry, Notary Pub1ic and Court Reporter.

The deposttion was conducted et 450 NCNB BulldLng'

I{inston-Salen, North Carollna, beglnnlng at 9:21 orclock

8.rn. on Monday, the 4th day of September, 1982.

Formal notlce of tlne and place and PurPoBe of

taklng the deposltlon waa walved. Formalitles wlth regard

to seallng and fillng the deposltion were waived, and tt is

stipulated thaE the orlglnal transcript, uPon being certl-

f ied by the tmderslgned court rePorter, ehall be flled ln

the offlce of the Clerk of Un1ted Scates DlEtrlct Court for

the Eastern Dlstrlct of North Carolina, Ralelgh, Dlvlsion,

Ralelgh, NorEh Carolina.

It ls further etlpulated that obJectlons to queE-

tlone and motlons to strike answerg are reserved untll the

testimony, or any part thereof, Is offered for evldencet

except that obJectlon(s) to the form of any question ehall

be noted on the record at the tlme of the taking of the

testlmony.

Reading and signing of the Eestfuuony was requested,

said testlmony to be subnltted Eo the wltness and sub-

Bequengly flled wlth the court PursuanE to the aPPllcable

rule(s) of clvll procedure.

Depoeltlon Servlcee; Inc. r0-4-82



(.

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

,rJP,rv-s oo
lllchael S. Michalec Page 4

The vltnes8, MICIIAEL S. MICHALEC, belng flrst duly

aworn to Btate Ehe truth, the whole truth and nothlng but

the Eruth, on hie oath testlfled aa follows:

19:2L of clock a.m. J

E)HMINATION

BY MS. HEEMN TO MICHAEL S. MICIIALEC :

Q. Mr. Michalec, ItE Kathleen Heenan, and Itm assoc-

iated wlth the SCate of North Carollna. If you would' atarc

by statlng your fuIl name for the record, and your addrese,

please.

A. Michael S. Michalec, and I llve at   

ln  .

Q. Mr. Mlchalec, what ls your educatlonal backgrogndt

lf maybe you could summarlze for us, Just starEtng wlth ---

A. --- I{eIL, I donrt know if you want aLl

Q. Secondary educatlon? startLng wlth college and

go forward?

A. Oh, okay. I attended syracuse UniversiEy for one

year ln electrical engineeriog, and then I graduated from

LeMoyne College in Syracuse, New York, tn economlcs ln 1950'

Okay?

Q. Okay. what ls your educatlonal background ln com-

Puters?

A. Irve been ln and around computer work for Over

tlrenty year8.

Depoaltlon Servlce3l Inc. r0-4-82



(,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page

Q. And when you say ln and arotutd, ls that on-the-job

type involvenent and tralnlng?

A. Meanlng wtrat? Even wtren I was in college prLor to

this ti.ne, I worked around ln a data-processlng center.

I did not do systems and progranmlng work. However, I was

lnvolved ln adJunct firnctlons; accountg rece_lvab}e, thls

kind of thlng. And I worked as an lnternal audltor for

a while and managed an accountlng department prlor to

gettlng lnvolved ln data processlng directly in 1963.

Q. Okay. Why donr t you starE wlth naybe 1953

A. --- All rlght.

Q. In data proceeslng and give us an eoployment

sumrnary, golng forward from ---
A. --- Okay, ln 1963 I jolned General Dynanlce Corpora-

tion as a systems analyst, and left there ln f966 aB a

supervteor -- systems supervleor.

From there I went to Eaton Corporatlon as data Pro-

cessing rnanager of a divielon of Eaton.

MR. HORTON: How do you sPe1l that?

E-a-t-o-n?

THE I.JITNESS : E-a- t-o-n r rlght . FroE

there I noved to North CarolLna with Arlsta Informatlon

Systems, which was out of hllnston-Salenr 88 a proJect Ean-

ager, and progressed shortly ChereafEer to beconlng vlce

president of the company.

Depoaitloa Servlceo, IDc. to-4-82



t-,:

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

L4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,fr-"rv-s oo

l

,

I

ir

Michael S. Mlchalec Page 6

And ln 1978 I left Arlsta, after the eleven or

twelve years that I was there, and went lnto bueiness for

nyself ln the computer consulting, and have eince been that.

Thle last June I forned a partnershlp wlth another

gentleman. He caoe lnto -- ln effect, he came lnto businegs

wlth ne.

q. Thls ls Mlchalec & Jenkins?

A. Jenklns, right.

Q. Okay. Mr. Michalec, have you ever had any forroal

tralnlng ln the area of redistrictlng or reaPPortionlng?

A. Have DoE. No, I have noE.

Q. Have you ever drawn a redistrlctlng plan?

A. Have noE; Dor not prlor to thls tlme.

Q. Have you drawn one now?

A. Yeg.

a. Have you ever drawn a redLstrlctlng plan that encom-

passes an entlre state?

A. Not lf I had -- well, wlth thls oner Yesr but not

prior to this tiner Do.

q. Okay. Are you famillar wlth the comPuter data base

that was used by the legislature and the drafters ln the

North Carolina reapportlonnent -- when I eay North Carollna

reapportlonment, I referring to the one thatrs the eubJict

of thls sult.
A. Okay, letr s be careful about uslng technical terDs

Depoaltlon ServiceEl Ioc. 10-4-82



llir -

C

i.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. H1cha1ec Page 7

Ilke data base unless you know sPeclflcally vtrat data wetre

talking about. OkaY?

Q. OkaY.

A. l{e prfuuarlly are r.rslng the census data'

Q. OkaY.

A. Okay? And letre keep the comment to that, because

data base ls a wlde, generlc tern.

Q. Okay. I was referring Eo the census

A. --- OkaY.

Q. --- Whlch was the data base

A. --- Rtght, whlch ---

Q. --- Used bY the ---
A. Is the data base that Ehey provided to us;

thatr s correct.

Q. Mr. Mtchalec, do you have any oplnlon regardlng the

accuracy of the census daca?

A. No. I have no basls to -- to dispute the accuracy

of the data that was provlded Eo ll8. I know that the the

data in computer readable form that was provlded ia exacgly

the data that they gave us on prlnted form. okay? At least

exacEly as as much as I checked lt, an)rway. Letrs Put 1t

that way.

Q. Okay. Have you any opinion as to ntrat ought to be

done about the suppressLon problen ln the censua data?

A. SupPression Problern?

Depoeltlon Servlces' Ioc. to-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

L4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

,r*-"rv-s oo

l

I

I

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 8

Q. Yeah.

' A. Wtrat do you mean by that? Your 11 have to clarlfy.

Q. TLre suppresslon of Bome lnforrnatlon ln Bome geo-

graphlcal entltles or snall geographlcal units r*here the

census bureau has suppressed lnfornatlon to proEect prlvacy

of some lndlvl-dualB.

A. No, I dontt -- do not have any oplnlon.

Q. Do you have {rn opinion as Eo how a Programmer ought

to deal with asslgning populatton when they epllt a block?

A. Read that again, please.

Q. Do you have an oplnlon as to how a reaPPortloner

ought to assign populati.on in a apllt block?

A. No. I I -- you know, I I donrt understand the

purpose of the questlon ao It1I say no, I donrt trave any

opinlon.

Q. Mr. Michalec, are you fanlllar wlth sectlon five of

the Voting Rlghte Act?

A. Probably not as much ae I should be, rlo. Apart from

knowing what countles ln the State of North CarolLna came

under the Votlng Rlghts Actl rlo.

Q. Do you know what significance eectlon flve of che

Votlng Rights Act would have in the overaLl task of reappor-

tlonment or redistrictlng?

A. WelI....
LIR. HORTON: May I interpose; or not ao

Depoaltlon Servlce8, IDc. 10-4-82



lr-

(,

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

t0

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

oo
Michael S. Michalec Page

much an objectLon as a comment. I{tty donrt you Just ask hln

what he did, becauser you know, here not a legal exPert, and

we donr t tender hin as anythlng more than a person nho cen

handle the data that was provided and cone up wlth aPPro-

prlate results.
MS. HEEMN: Could you read back the last

question? Irve forgotten lt already.

[ttext previous questlon read back by reporter]

Q. (lt. Heenan) Gan you anslrer that questlon?

A. Itro havlng a hard tlne underetandlng ntrat youtre

trylng to get at, but baslcally I thlnk I ln -- ln -- one

ln the interpretatlon, an)n ayr that -- that I had with --
wlth the work in whlch -- that I was dolng, I guese lt was

the -- the polnt of one manr one vote. Ttlerefore, ln not

dilutlng -- or in not dilutlng the votLng Porrer of any Par-

tlcular group withln the state by uslng populatlon denslEles

greater for a partlcular eeat. Okay?

Q. (Ms. Heenan) Do you have an oplnlon on what ls

meant by dilutLon?

A. Meanlng that you would have a greater number of

people represented by one lndividual than you would have ln

another part of the state, where you would have a loC fewer.

Okay?

Q. All rlght. Do you have an oplnlon on what ls meant

by packlng?

Depoaltlon Servlcesl Ioc. 10-4-b2



lr
a.

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,t-"rv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 10

A. No.

Q. Do you have an oplnlon on the meanlng of raclal eub-

mersion?

A. I could guess, but I guees noEr no; not ln Ehls

ea8e.

Q. Do you have an opinion on what ls meant by frag-

nentlng?

A. No. NoE in the context of thlsl rlo.

Q. Do you have an oplnion regarding the approach a

redlstrlctor should take ln deternlnlng whether a Partlcular

redlstrlcging plan dilutes or eubnerges bLack votlng

strength?

A. No.

Q. Do you have an opinlon as to wtrether the 1980 reaP-

portlonment plane for the North Carolina General Assenbly

afford a falr opportunlEy for blacks to elect candldates of

thelr choice?

A. No, I do not have an oplnLon about thaE'

Q. Do you have an opinlon as to the allowable popula-

tlon deviatLon for a congresslonal redistricting plan?

A. No. I dld not look at congressi-onal'

Q. Do you have an oplnion a8 to the allowable popula-

tLon devLatlon for a staEe legislatlve reapportlonment plan,

neanlng the Etate house and senate?

A. You mean an opinlon aa Eo how much iE ought to be,

Depoeltlon Servlce8, Inc. r0-4-82



5

6

8

9

(

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

tl
18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

oo
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 11

you mean? I

Q. --- Letr s Bay as to what le allowabl conetltu-

tlonally allowable or perroisslble.

A. Wellr put -- you know, what we used were the Same

paraneters that the state used ln arrivlng at thelr redls-

trlcting plan; Ehe plus or mlnus flve Percent of the average

populatlon, dtvided by the number of representatives allowed

by the state constltutlon.
E}(A}'IINATION

BY MR. WALI.ACE TO MICHAEL S. MIC}IALEC:

Q. Mr. Mlchalec, Irm ---

MR. HORTON: I gather that Ms. Heenan

ls through wlth her questlons?

I{R. WALLACE: Are you golng Eo requlre ue

to do lt Ehat way? Ms. Heenan, I thlnk, would like to look

at her questlons a llttle blt longer and let roe go lnto a

few other polnts whlIe th€....

US. IIEEMN: Would that be okaY?

!fR. WALLACE: Do you have any obJection to

that?

1,1R. HORTON: WeII, I thlnk we can do lt

thls time, but usually ltre better for us to go ahead and

conplege one parEyt s questlons and then move to the next

one. But i.n thls case ---

MS. IIEEMN: Since we all

Depoeltlon Servtces, Inc. LO-4-82



L-

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

azQQ-crv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 12

MR. HORTON: --- Ilike, do you have an

obJectlon to ---
TIIE WITMSS: --- No.

MR. HORTON: --- Double teanlng?

THE I{ITMSS: No.

MS. HEEMN: We donrt rnean to do that.

Sometimes there -- Youtf€....
Q. (Mr. Wallace) I Juet want to ask you first, Mr.

Mlchalec, If,ere you able to draw -- dld you say you drew

reapportionment plans?

A. Yes.'

Q. Okay. What do You mean bY that?

A. We took the same parameters that the Etate took ln

reapportloning the rePresentatlon of the Etete for the house

and the senate -- Etate senate, goLng counEy by county.

Okay? The the ground rules that we used were to not

spllt nonvoting rlghts aPPllcab1e counties. That wae the

only parameter, and that wae al'l we looked 8t.

Q. ThaE was the onIY Parameter?

A. Ttrat was the only Parameter that I was glven'

Q. A11 rlght, sir. Dld you make an effort to stay

wLthln a plus or mlnus flve Percent deviatlon?

A. Oh, absolutely, Yee.

Q. And how many plans rf,ere you able to come up wlth

that stayed within a plus or minus five percent deviatlon?

Depoaltlon Servlcea, Inc. 10-4-82



Er-

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 13

A. I only attenpted lt once.

q. You attenpted

A. --- lgg.

Q. --- To draw a plan one tine?

A. And I have that here.

Q. You have that plan chere?

A. IJh-huh (yes) .

Q. Does that plan bear any resenblance to any other

plan you've ever seen?

A. The only other plan Irve ever seen ls Ehe one that

the Btate flnally calDe up wlth. Ttrat was the only one that

I looked at, and I really didnrt look at lt that cloeely.

Q. You were never asked to check any other plans or the

mathematlcal accuracy of any other plans?

A. Nor Blr.

Q. No other proposed plans were brought to your atten-

tion ---
A. --- NO.

Q. --- Other than Ehe enacted ones?

A. No.

Q. Everythlng you dld you did fron scratch?

A. Right.

Q. And you came up with one plan?

A. Llh-hutr, that I s correct.

Q. A11 right, elr. I donrt Eean to ask ridlculous

Depoaltlon ServlceE, Inc. l0-4-82



C

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

I

,r*-"rv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 14

questlons. Can you tell ne in a falrly sinple way how thaE

plan differs from the plan that was enacted by the general

assenbly wlth respect to the house of repreoentatlveE?

A. (No response)

Q. By that, I aesun let me state first, I aeeume

you returned two townships to Forsyth County when you ---

A. --- Thatr s correct.

Q. --- When you -- I mean, would that not be ---

A. --- lIh-huh (yes).

Q. --- A falr assumPtlon?

A. IJh-huh, yes .

Q. A11 rlght. can you tell me nhat you dld to accom-

modate that change?

A. WelI, I -- you know, roaybe the best thlng would be

to show you whaE wetve done.

Q. Lett a -- thaEr s

MR. HORTON: --- Letrs do thaE.

MR. I{ALLACE: --- Fine. JuBt ao we can

get lt on the record, too, lf thatts....
THE UIITNESS: Letrs -- IeEre take the

house. All rLght.

(Of f-record dlscussLon)

LIR. HORTON: Letrs see, Yourve got thelr

house, havenrt you?

THE WITMSS: Right, thatrs their house'

Depoeltlon Servlceg; Inc. 10-4-tii2



L.,
t

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

15

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

ao
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 15

Okay. This ls thelr -- their hotrse pIan.

MR. HORTON: Ttrls ls the one thaE wag

passed by the State, and thls ls Mr. MlchalectE'

THE WITMSS: Now, we have not drawn It

out on a nap -- all rlght -- whlch could very easlly be

done.

MR. WALLACE: OkaY.

THE I{ITMSS: Ttre firet dif ference that

you w111 notice as you 8,o through the house plan ls Ehey

split a Cota1 of twenty-four countles; sotre of then three or

four dlfferent wayg, a8 you can aee over ln here; they epllt

them up. I{e spllt thLrteen. ALl were Votlng Rlghts Act

countlee.

we made an attenpt ln -- ln aome cases let me say

thls, that we did spllt some countles that, in reallty,

probably would not have had to have been spllt, but we dld

it for the sake of a geographlc area, meaning that the srea

in whlch we were conlng up wlth for a house distrlct was

very, very large in -- ln area -- 8PACe, and we fert lt wae

better to go ahead and take the split to try to get tt to

lnto a Inore reasonable slze.

Q. (Mr. Wallace) I{hat dld you do? PuIl PortLons of

large distrlcts lnto two large dlstrlcta or ---

A. --- How -- whatever would -- whatever lt would take

to make that lnto into two; you know, llke eepeclally

Depoeltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

,r*,rrv-s oo
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 16

dlviding a great blg area lnto -- lnto two ereag. Like take

the area ln Che eastern part of the state where they have

one g,reat blg erea; we ended up epllttlng thls into two.

Q. uh-huh (Yes).

A. Okay? By taklng a Votlng Rlghts Act county -- or a

excuse -- yeahr a county, and splltting it and then

naking -- rnaklng lt two wtrere lt nade senee.

We dld attempt to keeP the areas as relatlvely ernall

as we posslbly could. OkaY?

MS. IIEEMN: I wonder lf I could look at

these?

TIIE I{ITMSS : OkaY.

MS. HEEMN: Could we take a couPle of

minutes Just Eo look at thls?

LIR. HORTON: Sure. WhY donrE we JusE

MS. HEEIiIAN: Itrs klnd of hard just to

-- you know ---
MR. HORTON: --- l,lhy dont t we let hlm go

through lt countY bY countY?

MS. HEEMN: OkaY.

THE WITMSS : OkaY.

MS. HEEMN: Oh, that wll1 be flner oE

dl-strict by distrlct, whichever.

THE WITMSS: Okay, yeah. Ttte dlstricts

start the same as thelrs do, in Ehe eastern part of the

Depoaltlou Servl.ceo, Iuc. 10-4-82



l-r -

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

(

Oo
Michael S. Michalec Page 17

state, and go to the western Part of the etate. That la not

MR. HORTON: --- I{hen you say thelrsr You

mean the offlclal state pLan?

THE TIITMSS: Ttre offlclal state plan,

okay. Ttratf s Just to keep the numberlng '- .ah" baslcally

the Bame. Yout1l gee Bome deviatLone. I wagntt -- I waSnrt

always concerned about dolng that ln that way. Okay. Now,

letts take thle. Let,ta -- slnce you have your coPy over

there Itm golng to read go over thls coPy here. Okay'

Orr flrst distrlct in the eastern Part of the state

only has one member one rePresentatlve. Ihelre had two.

They conblned a lot of thlngs together' and they also

crossed the the sound, which we dld not do.

Q. (Mr. Wallace) Explatn that, if you wou1d.

A. --- Okay, the -- what ls lt? tlhat ls the sound?

MR. HORTON: Albemar1e.

TIIE IJITNESS: I dontt even -- A1benarle

Sound, okay.

Okay. I donrt know -- I as I go through thlst

ltts -- Ltte let me put lt thls way. Itrs pretty old hat

to me, Bo yout ll have to ask me Eo EtoP or explaln EoneEhlng

as we go through here.

MR. WALLACE: lJell, as long as -- I would

ltke thls put ln as an exhlblt, lf thatrs all rlght wlth

Depoaltlon Servlce8, Iuc. 1,0-4-82



lr

1

2

3

C-

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

,r*rrv-5 o

I

I

I

ir

Mlchael S. MichaLec Page 18

you.

MR. HORTON: Do we have any extra coPlee?

THE WITMSS: I donrt have any extra wlth

me today, no.

MR. HORTON: We can firrnlsh everybody

copies, I guess, eventually, lf you can make_ copies of them.

MR. I{ALLACE: I thlnk we can make coples.

Let roe ask -- we have asked probably asked for a copy of

thls or Bonethlng, sirnilar in our lnterrogatorles to you. I

dont t remember. We dldnr t ask for a coPy of any plans or

anythlng like that?

I{R. WORTH: No. You Just asked whether

plans had been drawn.

I*[R. WALLACE: Okay.

MR. WORTH: To the best of ny recollec-

tlon, at least.
MR. I{ALLACE: A11 rtght. Why donrt we

defer thaE Judgnent? Can you check wlthin thoee interrog-

atories? Do you mind dolng that?

MS. SMILEY: Let me see, I think Irve got

them.

MR. I{ALLACE: Those are JusE draft lnter-

rogatories. Letrs Just go through lt.

THE I.IITMSS : OkaY.

MR. TJALLACE: I thlnk we can arrlve at an

Depoaltlon Servlces, Inc. LO-4-82



t"t-

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

15

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

oo-
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 19

agreement as to

THE I{ITMSS: --- Okay. I donrt know that

yourre going to Bee be able to Bee from here compared to

the plan thatr s that Ehe Scate came up wlth any -- you

know, rlght off the bat unless youtve worked with the eta-

tistics a while ---
MR. I{ALLACE: --- lJh-hutt.

THE WITMSS: --- Be able to aee anythlng

thatts elgnlficant in -- ln thls. Itte Just thac aB lre go

through representatlve by representatlv

. 
MR. I{ALLACE: --- tJeIL, letre donrt --

letfe donrt -- do you wanc to go through ---
TIIE IJITMSS: I donrt -- I donrt ---

MS. HEEI.IAN: Ird llke to go through

it.
MR. HORTON: Okay.

MS. HEEMN: I meanr Bo qulckly, by ---

MR. HORTON: --- You rnean dlstrlct by dls-

trict?
MS. HEEMN: Just dlstrlct by dlstrtct.

THE I.IITNESS: OkaY.

MS. HEEMN: I want a deviatlon ln the

:l:"- 
percentage i.n every dlstrlct, and I can go through lt

MR. HORTON: --- t{e11, uhY donr t you --

Depoeltloa Servlce8, Inc. LO-4-82



7

I

9

(

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

,t_"rv_s oo
MLchael S. Mlchalec Page 20

why dontt ---
MS. IIEEMN: --- And wrlte iE down.

MR. HORTON: --- Why dont t you go through

lt and put each distrlct, Mt. Michalec, and state the devla-

tion and the percentage of black population?

MS. IIEEjtilAN: And then the number of mem-

bers

MR. HORTON: --- And the number of mem-

berg.

MS. HEEI,IAN: --- Because Ehere will be

aome -- Bome dLfferencog.

TttE TIITNESS: Okay. Okay, the flrst dle-

trlct has a devlatlon of -- letre gee, how dld I put that --

.928 percent. ThattB .928 percent, okay, whlch means that

ltts -- the actual devlation, the way I represented lt on

here, is .00928. Okay? So IrlI glve it Eo you in thaE --

in those term8.

MS. IIEEMN: Yeah, if You would. Just

give me a decimal

THE WITNESS: --- Just the decfuoal polnt?

MS. HEEMN: Yeah.

THE WITNESS: Okay. The percentage -- you

want the percentage, black populatlon?

MS. HEEMN: YeB .

THE ITIITMSS: 31.8 Percent. 31.8.

Depoaltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

a
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 2l

Okay, and the eecond di.strlct has a devlatlon of '04

excuse me, .O24L2, and the black populatlon is 49 Per-

cent.

And the next dletrlct ts a devlatlon of .02679 mlnus

thatt B I mlnus percent -- and a black populatlon of 29.9.

Okay, the next dleErlcE, distrlct number four, has a

percentage of .04168 mlnus and a black population of 51.1

percent. And -- excuae me -- thoee are all one rePresenta-

tives, all the way through on this. Okay?

Dlstrict number flve has a deviation of .03827

mLnus. Oh, yourve alreadY got that?

MS . HEEMN: Yeah.

THE WITMSS: Oh, okay. And a black PoPu-

lation of 32.7 percent.

MS. HEIIMN: Irm Just golng to Etand

behind you so I can gee the list of cogntles, if ChaE w111

THE ITIITMSS: --- WeIl, I can Eurn tt

around because I can read lt upslde-down, lf thatts wtlat

youtd like. Would that -- wouldnrt that be easler?

MS. HEEMN: OkaY, if thatrs eaeler for

you.

so you

THE TJITMSS: I was an audltor for a wtrlle

learn how to read upside-down ---

MS. IIEEMN: --- To read upslde-down. A

Depoeltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



iir -

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

t4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,ril_"rv_s oo
Michael S. MLchalec Page 22

great talent.
IIR. WALLACE: He was that or a book ealee-

rDan; one of the two.

MS. HEEMN: Okay, distrlct 81x-

IIIE WITMSS: Dlstrict slx has a devlatlon

of .02550 and a black populatlon of 29.6 Percent'

Okay, district number seven has two rePresengatlv€s.

It has a devlatl-on of .04011 and a ---
MR. HORTON: --- Thatt s a mlnug.

THE WITMSS: Mlnus , right. And a black

populatlon of 18 percent.

Okay, distrlct number elght has two rePresentatlves

also, and a devlation of .00954 and a black populatlon of

35.3 percent.

And distrlct number nine has a devlation of .04507

and a black population of 43 percent. One representatlve'

MR. HORTON | 43.4.

THE I{ITNF-SS: 43.4. OkaY.

District number ten has two repregentatlveg and a

devlation of .00191 and a black populatlon of 42.3 Percent'

Okay, distrlct nu.mber eleven has two rePresentaEi'vee

also, has a deviatlon of .01512 minus and a black populatlon

of 45.9 percent.

You can 8ee I was running out of paper r*ren I ran

thls. Tttatrs why the red ls on there. A11 right'

Deposltlou Servlcesl Ioc. r0-4-82



L.-
I

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

7

8

9

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 23

Dlstrlct number twelve has Erro represenEatlvee and a

devlation of .04957. I thlnk thatt B our largest devlatlont

mlnus-wlse. And a black populatlon of 22.5 Percent.

And dlstrlct nr.mber thlrteen has a devlatlon of

.01085 and a 47.1 percenE black populatlon. tJhat was that?

That was thlrteen, okaY

Dlstrlct fourteen has tlro rePresentattves, and ltre

all of one county.

MS. HEEMN: Two?

TllE I'IITMSS: Rlght. And ao lt h88 a

deviatlon of .00996 mlnus and a black populatlon of 32.5

percent.

Okay, dlstrict number fifteen has two rePresenta-

tlves aleo, and has a devlatlon of .02796 and a black PoPu-

lation of 35.5 percent.

Okay, now thls one here, I had made a mlstake, and

we had notlced it after we printed it out, and I have not

been able to geE back to Ehe conPuter Eo make -- make thls

change. I had just Put the wrong distrlct nu.nber on these

countles ---
MS. HEEMN: --- Oh, okaY.

THE \TIITMSS: --- Or thls of theee

townships of Onslow County. Ttrey belong ln a eeparate

dLstrlct, ao we would have two and two here. tJe would have

two dlstrlcts or two -- excuse me, two rePresentatlves ln

Deposltloa Servlcesl Iuc. 10-4-E2



(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,r*"rv-s oo

tt
I

Mlchael S. Michalec Page 24

dletrict -- what le thls, distrlct ---
MS. HEEMN: --- Slxteen.

THE IIITNESS: --- Slxteen, rlght. And

that would be two -- two countles conblned; would be Harnett

and Lee County, and I would have to recalculate the

MS. HEEMN: --- Okay

TllE TJITMSS: --- The Percentage devia-

tLon, but lt ls noc -- ltrs not golng to vary greatly from

that.
MS. IIEEMN: Okay. And these townshlps

are actually in dlstrict forty-eeven?

THE WITNESS: The -- thatrs utlat Irn golng

to make then ---
I*lS. HEEMN: --- Okayo

THE WITMSS: Is dlstrict forty-eev€rl.

okay? only because if I donr t I have to renumber all the

other distrlcts.
MS. IIEEI{AN: All rlght.

THE IJITMSS: Okay? And lErs Just a

clerical exercise to do thaE.

MS. HEEMN: Okay.

THE IIITNESS: Okay? But welre talklng

about the total for the rtrole thlng of 21.5 percenE black

populatlon of both of those dlstrLcts together and a devla-

tlon of , you knot{... .

Depoeltlon Servtces, Iuc. LO-4-82



2

3

(

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 25

IIS . HEEMN: Okay.

THE TIITMSS: A deviatlon of .02946.

MR. HORTON: Minus.

THE WITMSS: Minus , rlght.
Okay, thle is district number Beventeen has three

representatives, and lt hae a deviatl-on of .00766 and a

black populatlon of 27 and a half percent.

Okay, now, I Buppooe that that problen could hsve

been broken -- wellr Eay -- mey or may not have -- Dor I
guese it could not have been broken down more. You got a
numbers garne whenever youtre playing thls game.

Okay, distrlct number eighteen has two representa-

tives and has a devlatlon of .03275 and a 27.1 percent black

populatton.

And district number nineteen has -- weII, it has one

counEy spllt ln here, too. It has two repreaentaclves and a

deviatlon of .OL362 minus and a black populatlon of 40 per-

cent even. I donrE even know what the etatewtde average ls.
Ird have to look at.

The district number twenty ls all of one coulty;

all of Durharn County, which has a deviatlon of .03904 and a

black populatlon of 36.3 percent.

And distrlct twenty-one has a deviatLon of .OO275

minus and a black populatlon of 22.9 percent.

Dlstrlct number twenty-two has aeven representatlves

I}epoeltloo Servlceg, Ioc. ro-4-82



f-

(,

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

t4

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. ltlchalec Page 25

and lncludes Wake Cor:nty, and a devlation of .02437 minue

and a black populatlon of 22.3 Percent.

MS. HEEMN: Okay.

THE WITMSS: And distrlcc twenty-three

lncludes all of Cunberland County, a deviatlon of .00851 and

a black populatlon of 30.6 Percent

And dlstrict twenty-four has all of Sanpeon County,

and it ls -- has a deviatlon of .01371 and a black popula-

tlon of 33.7 percent. One representatlver by the way; one

representative.

MS. IIEEMN: Okay.

TIIE WITNESS: Okay, and thls ls the one

where we -- we found I had made a er0a11 error, pulllng the

wrong -- I keyed the wrong nr:mber on the Ilst. Thle should

have been ten instead of flve, and then thts should be

0-5, whatever -- however ftve comes out. Irm wrltlng

upslde-down, an)nday, but rttatever, lt 8t111 dld not change

ny -- the overall thlng r*ren spllctlng one and four. But

nrrmber twenty-flve hae a deviation of .00854 and a bLack

populatLon of 37.3 percenE.

And distrlct twenEy-slx has four rePresentatlves and

has a deviatlon of .01209 and a black populatlon of 28,7

percent.

MS. HEUMN: OkaY.

THE WITMSS: And tllenty-eeven ls all of

Depoeltlon Servlces, Inc. t0-4-82



r.,

(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 27

Moore Cor:nty all by ltselfr whlch i,s a devlatlon of .03040

and a black populatlon of 2L.2 Percent.

And twenty-elght hae two rePresentatlves and ln-

cludes all of Alarnance County, and is a devlatlon of .01315

and a black populatlon of 19.3 Percent.

Dlstrlct Ewenty-nlne includes Part of GuIlford and

Rocklnghan County and has a devlatlon of .0244L and a black

populatlon of L8.2 percent and two rePregenCatlves.

okay, now, I did not choose to spllt Gullford 8ny

more. It could have been -- easlly have been spllt out more

by ftndlng the contlgulty of the varlous tounships vlthln

here and puIIlng lt out and naklng thls a Ilttle dlf-

ferent situation. Ttrere le a Gllner Townshlp wlth 53'000'

and, paired wlth another, could pull two rePresentatlves out

of here very easlly, but I dtd not choose to do that at thle

polnt. I dldntt feel lt wa8 my -- ny place to do that at

thls polnt ln tlme. I rras not lnstructed to look at any

part of that klnd of eltuatlon. But lre 8t111, wtth slx

representatlves, came uP wlth a very close deviation of

.00285 and a black -- total black Percentage of 26.6 Per-

cent.

MR. WALLACE: 
'If we can Just Xerox theee

and agreed upon the record, I thtnk we can stoP going

through these et thls polnt ln tlme'

MS. IIEEMN: Yeah.

Depoeltlon Servlce8r rnc. 10-4-82



\.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

,r*"rv-s o
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 28

MR. WALI"ACE: Is that ---
MS. HEEMN: --- That wouLd be fine' l-f I

can just fllp through ---
THE IIITNESS: --- Go ahead, yeah.

MR. HORTON: Yeah, thatrs fi.ne.

MS. HEEMN: Ttratrs all rlght.
MR. WALLACE: I Just think wetre....
MS. HEEMN: Okay. I know thle ls time-

consuming, but this ls the flret tlme wetve Eeen thls.
MR. WALLACE: It w111 go on your machine,

won't it?
MR. HORTON: I thlnk lt -- it probablY

wlIL.
MR. WALI"ACE: If we can Just etlpulate

thaE what wetlI 8et in resPonse to these interrogatorlesr if
we come to the concluslon that we dld ask for the pIans,

w111 be the same, then I think --'I thlnk we can dispense

wlth going through those ---
MR. HORTON: --- Yeah.

MR. WALLACE: --- And Kathleen ---
MR. HORTON: --- Right. Jim, yourre golng

to get them. We arent t golng to give you any trouble with

lt. My only concern ls the expense of dupllcatlng them on

these machines and aII.
MR. WALLACE: Ttrese?

Depoaltlon Servlces, IBc. to-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 29

MR. HORTON: Yeah.

MS. HEEMN: Ttris w111 Xerox, wontt lt?
I.[R. WALLACE: It. h"ppy wlth a Xerox, HaE.

It doesntt appear that ltrs 8o long lt wonrt go on aXerox.

MS. HEEMN: Yeah, becauee I
MS. SMILEY: --- Turn It sideways on a

legal Bheet.

TtlE WITNESS: Ttrle ls this ls Iegal

paper, yeah.

MS. IIEEMN: Irve Xeroxedr You know,

::: 
"* printouts, and lt -- they Xerox nlce and cleanr 8o

rlR. WALLACE: --- Wonr t cost you but a

dollar. It canr t be that ---
MR. HORTON: --- Ir11 b1L1 you. You all

blIIed us for Ehat doggone taPe. Didnrt they, Tom?

MR. WORTH: Yeah.

MR. WALI"ACE: I{hich Eape?

MR. HORTON: Itre comPuter taPe Ehey took.

MR. WALLACE: Dld rhey b111 you?

TtlE LIITNESS: Yes, $S+; somethlng Ilke

that.
MS. IIEEMN: Irm sorry Eo be 8o persnlck-

ety about thls, but I have thle odd theory about this Law-

sult, that Ehe crux of lt ls r*rere the lLnes are drawnr 8o

Depoeltlon Servlces, IBc. to-4-82



L'-

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

,rrnrv-s
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 30

thatts what Irro trylng to flgure out. You know, I really do

hate to dwell on details, but ---
MR. WAIIACE: --- You all want to let me

go ahead and ask -- I dontt have that trany more questlons.

You want to ---
MS. HEEMN: I thlnk thls le this

ls flne. I even got through mogt of the Lnportant Part.

You know, the rrestern part of the state no onets -- everyone

starts fllpplng very qutckly when they get Eo the western

part of the etate. Okay. Yeah, thatrs good'

THE LIITNESS: Ttrat ehouLd natch the end of

yours.

l'1S. IIEEMN: Rlghc .

THE WITNESS: Ttre same thlng.

MS. IIEEI{AN: llh-huh.

THE WITNESS: I,lerre uslng the same statle-

tlce. Maybe rny Percentages nlght be off by a tenth or Som€-

thing ln there, but thatrs about all'.
MS . IIEEIiIAN: Rlght . OkaY.

THE I.JITNESS: Because I rounded all of

mine.

E)G},IINATION

BY MR. I{ALI"ACE TO MTCHAEL S. MIC}IdLE9:

Q. So what wetve done ls Just go through, Et least t,,

part -- in large part, a ParE of the one reaPPortlonment

il

Depoaltlon Servlcee, rns. r0-4-82



L-

(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

(

oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 31

plan you drew, with no varlatlone above plus or minue flve

percent?

A. Thatrs exectly right.

Q. And wlth no countles epltt other than Votlng Righte

Act countles?

A. Ttre program would have told us lf there were any ln

error and what the dlstrlct nr:mbers rrere that were fut error t

that exceeded Ehat by plus or mlnus flve Percent. That was

ny worklng tool. I Just lefc tt ln the Program.

Q. All rlght, slr. Were you able to colDe up with any

Benate plans that ---
A. --- Ye8.

Q. lilere you able to come up with any eenate plans that

brought you ln at that plus or mlnus five Percenc ---

A. --- Yee. Itll give You a coPY

q. --- Or bel.ow and spllc no counties ---
A. --- Llh-huh (yes) .

Q. --- Not covered by the Vottng Rlghts AcE?

A. Correct, correct.

Q. How nany plans was lt?
A. Just one.

Q. Just one?

A. Thatr s all I was attempting to do.

Q. I{as that an orlginal plan, to your knowledge?

A. Orlglnal by ne? Yes.

I

I,t
t

Depoaltlon servlces' Ioc. 1O-lL-82



ii"

C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,rOrrv-s
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 32

Q. To you.

A. Yee, uh-huh.

Q. You created the PIan?

A. lIh-huh (yes) .

Q. l{as any other plan that achleved those obJectlves

brought to your attenElon ---
A. --- !rlg.

Q. --- Prlor to your drawlng the plan?

A. No. ltre only thlng that Irve seen all the way

through -thls are the etate plans.

Q. Yourve Been no oEher plans for house or Eenate

purpoees?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Do you have the figures on the senate pLan

wlth you?

A. Yes, right here.

MR. WALLACE: Do you want to go through

those, Kathy, ot do you Just want to Eake -- lf we can Just

egree to get thoee available to u8. I meanr W€ can do thaE

ln the calm of the evenlng. Ttrerets no reason to slt here

and do that.

Q. (Mr. Wallace) You say youtre vaguely fanlllar wlth

the Votlng Rlghts Act? I dont t want to testlfy for you,

btlt....

A. I{ell

Depoeltlon Servlcee, Inc. to-4-82



(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

t4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

o
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 33

Q. --- Strike that, please. Have you read the Votlng

Rlghts Act?

A. No, I have not.

Q. Have you read section five of the Voting Rlghte Act?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you thlnk ---
A. --- Well, I I donrt remember vtrat the number w88.

I'Je went over lt. He dld read Ehat to me whtle we were

slttlng here. Harn did read that to me.

q. In your oplnlon, do you know anythlng of substance

about the Votlng Rights Act, other than the fact that cer-

taLn counties ln North Carolina nay be spllt for reapPor-

tlonment purposes and certain countles may not be spllC?

A. Other Ehan the fact of Ehe PIus or mlnus flve Per-

cent e flo.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you thle. Dtd you actenPt to draw

more than one plan that acconplished your obJectlves?

A. No, dld not.

Q. Let ne ask you thls, too. Were your objectives to

come ln under plus or mlnus

A. --- Oh, absolutelY.

Q. --- Flve percent?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Okay. You dld noE attenpt to draw but one houee or

senaEe plan?

Deposltlon Servlce8, Ioc. 10-4-82



(,

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

,rtnrv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 34

A. Thatr s correct.

Q. Is there anyEhlng that leads you to believe that

plan is any better than any oEher plan you could draw?

A. That -- that I -- well, havlng been through the

exercLse oh, Irm Bure wlth a llttle more work there could

be some otherr you know, plan presented that. night be a

Ilttle different. Irm noE aure at thls polnt in tLne, glven

the crLterla I wae glven, and glven what I know about the

State of North Carolina, Irm not aure that I could come uP

wlth anythlng any -- any different or any ---

Q. --- So you really dont t ---
A. --- Thatt s any better.

Q. --- Know wtrether you could come up wlth any other

plans or any other better plans or any other worse pIans, ln

your opinlon?

A. WelI, I cercainly could come up wlth a IoE more

worse plane, sure.

Q. Oh, thatt s kind of a ellIy queetlon, lsnr t lt?
A. Yeah.

Q. All rlghE. What criterla dld you folIow?

A. Okay, basically I was told to only look at preparing

a plan for Ehe house and the senate where we dld not spIlt
nonvotlng rights applicable countles.

Q. IJh-huh.

A. That was the only crLteria, and that was all I used.

Depoeltlou Servlcesl Iac. to-4-82



1

2

3

7

8

9

(,

10

11

L2

13

t4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 35

I have no knowledge -- I did noE use any other crlterlon at

all; let ne put lt that way.

Q. Except percentages?

A. WelI, the plus or mLnus flve Percent. That -- that

because of, you know, what was ln there and rfrrat I was

told; thatr e correct

Q. All rlght. Are you alrare of the guldellnes or crl-

terla that were adopted by the general assenbly in lts reaP-

portlonment efforts?

A. No.

Q. All rtght, slr. So tn elther covered or noncovered

countles ln North Carolina dlO you make any aEteEPt to avold

dlluting the votlng strengch of minorLty vocere?

A. No, dld not ---

Q. In any senee?

A. In any -- any 8ense, rlo.

Q. A11 rlght, elr. Di.d che flgure flfti Percent mean

anythlng to you wLth respect to concentrattons of ninorlty

voters ln distrlccs?

A. No, I dld not look at anYEhlng.

Q. Dld the figure fifty-one percent mean anythlng?

A. (Witness moved head from elde Eo slde)

Q. Dld any percentage of bLack votere

A. --- Did not.

Q. --- Mean anything to you ln a dlstrlcc?

Depoeltlon Servlce8, Iuc. LO-4-82



I.

1

2

3

4

5

6

(.

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

15

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,r9f.rrv_s
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 36

A. Did not.

Q. And even if we go uP to sixty-flve Percent, that ---

A. I dldnr t look at lt elther rJaY.

Q. Dld that llean anything to you ln the covered

countles?

A. Dld not mean anything to me in the ntrole analysls

that I dld.

Q. In any colxlEyr covered or noncovered?

A. Thatr e correct. 
.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Thatts correct.

Q. All rlght, elr. Dld you attemPt to see to lt the

legtslative dLetrlcts conslsted of contiguous terrltory?

A. AbsolutelYr Yee.

Q. So thatr e another crlterion?

A. That was anoEher crlterlon.

Q. Were you consclously following thaE crlterlon?

A. Yes. Ttratrs r*hat makes lt more -- most difflcult;

not i-nposslble, but difficult.

Q. Did you attempt to make those districts as conPact

as posslble?

A. YeB.

Q. So thatt e another crlterlon?

A. Right. 1{e11, if you want to look at lt -- okay'

A11 rlght. That waa ---

Depoeltlon servlce8. ruc' 10-4-82



b-:

(j

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,J"rv-s O O
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 37

Q. --- All rlght.
A. --- That was not glven to me as a crlEerla. Okay?

From -- ln ny dlrectlves

Q. --- lJh-hutt .

A. --- When I was worklng wlth thte. Ttret was a cri-
terla that I -- we used baeically out of common Bense.

Q. You were not at all aware of these reapportlonment

crlterla?
A. Which -- that and the -- wlth the etate?

Q. The geireral assernblyre reapportlonnent crlEerta ---
A. --- Oh; no.

Q. --- Were they brought to your ettentlon in any

::l".rr 
or were you lnformed tn any manner that they exleted

A. --- No.

Q. --- Or wtrat Ehey eald?

A. Oh, Irm eure we mentLoned that there rrere aome, but

rre dld not -- I dld not get lnvolved with them aE all.

Q. You did not base your plans at all on those?

A. (Witness moved head from elde to slde)

Q. Except coincidentally. Is thaE what ---
A. --- Except colncidentally.

Q. All rlght, slr, lf you would, please Irrn golng to

backcrackas11ct1easposs1b1e.Wttereareyoufroro?

A. Origlnally?

,i
1iri
I

,

'lI

Depoeltlon Services, Ioc. LO-4-82



L._

2

3

5

6

C

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

t4

15

16

20

2L

22

23

24

25

17

18

19

,ro"rv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 38

Q. Origlnally.
A. Upstate New York.

Q. And you moved to North Carollna when?

A. L967.

Q. 1957. Have you travelecl the Btate to any extent at

all ?

A. Not Eo really any extent except co belng on the

coast at the beach and belng ln Ehe mountalne and this klnd

of thlng.

Q. Have you had occaslon ---
A. I learned a lot durlng -- doing thle, a lot Dore

than I
Q. --- So did I.
A. Itte very Lnterestlng now. l,Ihen thlngs Ilke Warren

County comes up in the nerrs, I know where that ls now, where

I dldnt t know anything about that before.

Q. Well, have you had occasLon at all to etudy the

history of the etate?

A. No , no.

Q. You never studled the history of the sEate?

A. (Wltness moved head from side to slde)

Q. If I eay anythlng to you about are you famLllar

wlth the geographlcal characterlstlcs of the etate? Yourve

lndlcated yourre arrare that there are the beachee and the

mountalns, and ---

Deposltlon Servlcea, Ioc. LO-4-82



(,

I

2

3

4

5

5

7

I

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Michalec Page 39

A. --- ThattB -- thatrs correct.

Q. Does your knowledge go any deeper than that about

the geography of the state?

A. In uhat way? I

Q. --- tJell, I thlnk we have ldentlfled the fact thac

we all know Albernarle Sound exlsts, but are. you generally

on a county-to-county baeis farolllar wlth the

A. --- !ifg.

Q. OkaY.

A. No. ltre counties baslcally dontt -- donrt mean any-

thing to me from a geographical polnE of view.

Q. Okay. Do you ---
A. --- OnIy the general area.

Q. Are you at all fanillar wlth any pollttcaI concen-

trations ln the State of North Carollna?

A. Just ln Forsyth County.

Q. Just ln Forsyth Cor:nty?

A. (Witness moved head up and down)

Q. Yourve stated Ehat you rnade no effort to acbommodate

or -- I donr t wanE to testlfy for you.

A. A11 rlght.

Q. Correct Ee lf Irm wrong, but you dld noE ln any way

ehow advertence to minorlty concentratlong

A. --- No, I did not.

Q. --- When you reapportloned. Dld you do so wlth

Depoeltlon Servlceel IDc. r0-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

8

I

t0

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

5

6

7

:-cI

Mlchael s. Mlchalec Page 40

resPect

A.

Q.

to any polltical
--- We -- I donr t

parElee ---
even have eny -- anY lnformatloo

--- You donrt know ---

A. --- About any -- about the rePreaentatlon or the

voter concentratlon, lf you want to Ehlnk in. thoee terms'

do not have sBYr excePt for Forsyth County.

Q. A11 rlght, elr. Did you conslder at all the concePt

of communitlee of lnterest throughouE the State of North

Carollna when you reaPPortloned?

A. No, lt would have been very dlffLcult, since I am

not thaE fanlliar wl,th everythlng tn thle sEate. I juet

attempted to keep the areas as small as posslble, and, of

courae, the contlgulty of the counties and the townehips

would -- I would hope wouLd have provlded that klnd of sltu-

aElon wlthln the -- within che dlstrlcts that were aPPor-

tioned. I could not an)rwhere near guarantee that, though'

I have no -- no knowledge about that.

Q. A11 rlght, elr. l{ellr you say youtre familiar with

Forsyth County with resPecE to pollt1cal concentratlons'

What do you know about the polltlcal concentratlons

of Forsyth Cor:ntY?

A. Well, I know how -- approxlnately how -- how many

voters there are here. I know from experlence where the

heavily Democratlc vote from thls county will come from'

Depoeltlon Servlce81 Ioc. 10-4-82



I*

(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 41

Q. Where is that?

A. East east l{lneton. I know basically some of the

ewlng townshlps or preclncts wlthin the county. Other than

thaE, thatre about all.

Q. Do you have any parElcular oplnion about the politl-

eal characterlstics of any of the cogntles lnvolved --

excuse me, townshlps lnvolved tn thls litlgatlon?

A. Oh, the -- yee. I Inean, You read lf you Just

read the papers you know enough about thaE.

Q. Let me aek you thls. Do you know whlch countles are

lnvolved ln thie litigatlon?
A. tJtrich tovnshlps?

Q. Wtrlch townshlPs , excuse me.

A. Be1ews Creek and Salen Chapel. Irm pretty aure

those are the two, Yes.

MS. HEENAN: Kernersvllle?

THE TJITNESS: WeI1, Kernereville; too.

Q. (Mr. l{allace) LeE me read a statement to Your if I

could, please, sir.
A. Okay.

Q. For the record, It, readlng paragraph five of the

reapportlonment crLterla, whlch have been introduced lnto

the court.
The paragraphs Bays: rrTo the extent conslstent wlth

alL of the above requirenent6, distrtcts should be con-

Depoaltlon Servlcesl IEc. to-4-82



(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 42

etructed Bo as to recognlze che Btaters hletorlc conmunltlee

and commonalltles of lnterest wlth respect to the 1nh8b1-

tants and constituencles wlthln euch distrlcts, provlded

such conslderations ehall not violate any of the prlnclples

llsted in paragraphs one through four sbove.r'

Now, what wetve gone through ln one through 1n four

above are the questlons Irve asked you about polltlcaI con-

centratlons, agaln, coulmunLtlee of lnterest, geographical

characterlstlcs ---
A. --- uh-huh (yes).

Q. --- Of the etate, and the percentage devLatlons.

Paragraph alx saysi rr...That thle

nlninlze vocer confuslon and maln-

were 8et out above.rr

the element of voter confusion or

in 8ny way ntratsoever nhen you

And by that I mean when You drew

All rlght, Blr.
w111 be done ln order to

taln the interests that

Dld you conslder

possible voter confuslon

reapportloned the etate?

your p1ans.

A. 1{e11, ln respect to keeplng the areea -- keeplng as

rnany counties intact as posstble, the people of the state

are used to votlng ln thelr county entitleE, and to puII aB

few townshtps out of one county to Join another county ag

as posslble -- outside of rhat, and keeplng wlthln the other

guldellnes abover oo, I dld not use any any other crL-

terta about voter confuslon.

,rorrv-s oo

1l

Depoeltlon Servlcea; IBc. 10-4-82



E.

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

L4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

(

8

Mlchael S. Mtchalec Page 43

Q. Okay. I,Ilth respect to Che houee or eenate?

A. Idlth -- wlth -- thatre rlght. ThatrB correct.

Q. In any plan?

A. (No response)

Q. We have been testifylng or you have been teetlfylng

wlth reepect to both plans, ln effect?

A. Rlght.

Q. A11 rlght, elr. Are you fanlllar with the affidavit

of 8111 Hale of June 14th, L982, which was lntroduced to the

court or flled wlth the courE, wlth resPect Eo the remand

iesue?

I,[R. HORTON: I donr t know that I have

that.

THE WITMSS: NO.

MR. HORTON: May I look at lt?

MR. WALLACE: tJell, lf you didntt get lE,

maybe you cantt respond to lt.

If you keep golng down therets one by Dan Long, and

following lt ---
MR. HORTON: --- Yeah.

MR. I{ALLACE: What lt ls, ltrs the trro

affldavits thaE went in ln response to your motlon to

remand.

MR. HORTON: Oh, yeah. Thatrs flne. If

youtd llker you can put thern as exhlblts to Ehls depoeLtlon.

tlri
t!
t,ri
Iil
l'

Depoeltlon Servlces, IEc. 10-4-82



F

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

{

Mlchael S. Michalec Page 44

MR. I{ALLACE: Thatre flne. For ttrat

matter -- well, I etlII donrt know exactly ntrat wetre golng

to do with these. Do you want to go ahead and mark them as

exhlbits and letrs worry about

MR. HORTON: --- Dupllcatlng them?

Ir[R. WALI"ACE: Yeah. You want to do that?

All rlght, letrs mark -- whlch le your house

TltE I{ITMSS: --- Thls ls the -- thls ls

the house, here.

MR. WALLACE: A11 rlght, elr. And thls

wetd mark lt....

MS. HEEMN: Why donr t we refer to thle aa

MR. I.IALLACE: --- Defendantr s

MS. HEEMN: --- Mlchalec House Plan, and

wet 1l mark lt as Exhlblt A.

(of f-record discusslon)

[Defendantrs E(hiblE 1 wae
marked for the_purpose of
identlficaclonJ

THE I{ITMSS: Okay. And then Ehis le the

Eenate.

MS. HEEMN: That would be 2.

[Defendantre E(hiblt 2 vae
narked for the_purpbse of
ldentificatlonl

MR. WALLACE: Oh, the criterla. I eee no

BzJ rv-5 OL

I

I

I

I

Depoaltlon ServlceE, Inc. to-4-82



lh-

(

1

2

3

4

5

5

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

t4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 45

need to put the criterla ln lf ttt6 no difference to you.

MR. HORTON: 1de11, you can lf yourd llke.

Slnce it was referred Eo tn Ehe depoeltlon lt nlght be a

good idea

llR. I{ALLACE: Uh-huh.

I.[R. HORTON: Letrs put that ln; those tlro

affldavlts.
MR. WALLACE: If you wou1d, please, mark

thls as -- why dontt we go atread and make these Defendantre

Exhiblts 1, 2, and 3.

(Of f-record dlscusslon)

[Defendancr I Exhibits 3 and 4

I?'ioEiII?t"i:L:f PurPose

Q. (Mr. Wallace) A11 right, slr. Let ne hand you

Defendantr s Exhlblt Nunber 4, and ask you to revlew thls

docunent.

ltlltness examlned docuroent]

A. Okay.

Q. A11 rlght, elr. Look at ParagraPh elghc of that, lf

you would, please, slr, che Hale affidavlt.

A. uh-huh (yee) .

Q. Let roe ask you lf -- well, letrs donrt look at Para-

graph elght right.nolf . Letts do thle flrst. And I donrt

know lf you have wlth you the flgures to refer to that w111

allow you to answer these queetlons or not. Let ne Just ask

Depoeltlon Servicea, Inc. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2r

22

23

24

25

Michael S. Mlchalec Page 46

them ---
A. --- Okay.

Q. --- For a few mlnutes and eee lf you do know.

Do you know whether, when you dld your conPutatlone,

you proceeded on the assumptlon that the populatlon of

Gullford Cotmty ln 1980 was 3L7 rl54?

A. Yes.

Q. You recall that?

A. I dld pursue thatr Yes.

Q. A11 right, elr. Do you agree that the ldeal of the

mathematically equal dietrlcte ln the state shoulct contaln,

ln the house of representatLves tdeally -- 491015 people?

A. Thatr s correct.

Q. In your work dld you determlne that Gullford County

was enEltled to aeven house rePresentatives?

A. I am not sure that -- lf I would dlvlde that outr I

could probably -- you know, I could figure thaE out, but

thatrs correct -- Dor thatts not correct. It doesnrE

faII wlthln that -- that range of nr:mbers. Gullford Cor:nty

Q. --- Do you have too few?

A. --- I{ould have to be epIlt. Too few.

Q. Too few people?

A. Too few people; thatrs correct.

Q. A11 right. l{ould you agree that ideally' using

82-,rv-s oo

Depoeltlon Servlce8, IEc. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

t.

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 47

491015 as our figure, the ldeal flgure would be 3431105 for

Guilford Cor:nty?

A. ThaEr s correct.

Q. That &eans a shortage of alnost 261000 people. I8

that correct?

A. To to run lt at exactly the number

--- To hit the ldeal representation ---
--- Thatrs correct.

--- Percentages ---
--- Uh-hutr (yes) .

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q. --- For Gullford CountY?

A. Thatt s correct.

Q. A11 rtght, elr, do you agree that the numbers betng

as they are wlth the Beven percent -- ohr excuse me, or with

seventeen -- strlke that -- with the seven rePresentaEives

from Gullford County, Ehat that leaves us wlth a mlnus 7 -56

percent devLation?

A. Ttrat could be. I would have to divide that out.

Q. Can you do that?

A. Thatr s correct. 7.56.

Q. All right, sir. Do you agree chat ln order to brlng

that relative devlatlon below five Percent youtre going to

have to conbine the populations of portlons of other coun-

tLes wlth the populatton -- or at least one other county

with the populatlon of Gullford County?

Depoaltlon Servlcea, Iuc. to-4-82



t!,

(:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Michael S. Michalec Page 48

A. No, I dontt agree wlth chat. I think you can -- you

can spllt Forsyth -- or spIlt Gullford Cor:nty and comblne lE

wlth oEher counties, the other way. Yourve talked about

bringing other countLes into Gullford. Irn talking about

spllttlng Guilford and puttlng it wlEh other countles.

Q. Do you agree that Gullford County can -- the counEy

line integrity cannot be adhered to tn Guilford Cor.rrty?

A. Thatrs correct.

Q. And come up wlth any betEer than a mlnus 7.56

A. --- Thatrs correct, uh-huh.

Q. --- Devtatlon. Is that correct?

A. (No response)

Q. So the county lines, in effecc, have to be fractured

either way for the sake of the numbers?

A. For the sake of the -- of conplylng with the Votlng

Rights Act of plus-or-mlnus -- with plus-or-mlnus five per-

cent, thatrs correct.

Q. The plus-or-mlnus five percent consideratlons are a

voting rlghts consideratlon to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you mean Votlng Rlghts Act?

A. Yes.

MR. HORTON: I{e11, It. golng to obJect to

that. Youtre asklng for legal concluslonEr and here tes-

tified that he is not faroiliar with the Voting Rights Actt

Bzit|crv-s oo

I
I

!

I

1l

Depoeltloa Servlces, IEc. to-4-82



Br

C.

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

M1chael S. Mlchalec Page 49

other than Just havlng portlons of lt read Eo hlm.

Q. (Mr. wallace) A11 rlght, sir. Wtlen you dld your

calculatlons, dld you know that at thaE -- weII, let me aek

you thls.
When did you begln work on these plans? Ttre house

and genate plans.

A. Sometlme in Auguet.

Q. Sometlme ln August. And you comPleted then tfien?

A. About a week ago; week and a half ago.

q. You completed the plans a week ago?

A. IJh-huh (yes).

Q. Are you aware at thls polnt that the Unlted Statee

attorney general obJected to the dllution of rotnority votlng

strength ln Bertie, Gates, kllfax, Hertford, MarEln, and

Northampton Counties prior to the last reaPPortlonment plan?

A. No.

Q. You were never aware of that?

A. (Wltness moved head f:rorn elde to slde)

Q. Let me read through one ParagraPh of the }trale affl-

davlt, lf you would, please, eir, and Just tell me whether

you ag,ree or dlsagree wlth each of these statementsr and I

dontt know whether theyrre going to faII within Ehe Parame-

tere of what you dld or not,.

Flret, lf -- (quote) lf ln order to brlng the PoPu-

latlon figures for the Gullford dlstrlcts lnto llne with the

o

Depoeltlon Servlcea, Ioc. 10-4-82



[-.

(.

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

Bzilbrv-s oo
ltlchael S. Mlchalec Page 50

conmitteer s relative devlatlon crlterlon Iend qlrotel -- you

can read along with ne lf youtd llke. Irm ln paragraph

elght. It may nake tt a llttle easler.

Okay, beglnnlng agaln, t'If in order to brlng the

populatlon figures for the Gullford distrlcts lnto lLne wlth

the commltteer e relatlve devlatlon crlterlon., the general

asserobly had transferred townshlps solely from Rocklnghan

County lnto the Gullford dLstrlct, lt would have been

necessary to transfer certaln Caswell County townehlps to

the dlstrict conprising Alanance County and the remainder of

Rocklngham County.tl

Are you able Eo exprees an oplnion on the correct-

ness of that statement, slr?

A. I donrt thlnk thaErs correct. I

Q. --- Can you explain your answer?

A. I dld not do Ehat ln the manner ln whlch Ehey have

instructed that it be done here in this paragraph.

Q. In what manner have you done lt?
A. I cornbined Caswell and Orange Cor:ntles to conprlee

one house dlstrlct, and I coroblned certain townships of

Gullford and Rocklngham County Eo -- to Put into anoEher

town-- or another dlstrtct, and also Alamance County wae

left all by ltse1f.

Q. A11 rlght, str. TtIe nexE statement ln the paragraph

ls, ttBecause of the heavy concentration of black populatlon

Depoaltlon Servlces, IDc. to-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

v-
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 51

ln Caswell County, thie would have fi'rrther dlluted the black

voting strength in the new 22nd dlstrlct, and also would

have necessltated firrther transfers of tornshlps lnto the

22ad dietrlcC from other contiguous cor:ntlee ln order to

coroply wlth the relatlve deviatlon crlterlon of the com-

mlttee. r'

Do you have any oplnlon as to the truth of that

staEement?

A. No.

Q. You do not?

A. (WLtness moved head from side to elde)

Q. A11 rlght, slr. Were you ever aware thaC there was

a heavy black populatlon ln Caswell County?

A. No, I was not.

Q. A11 rlght, eir. And wlth resPect to the senatet

have you determined rstrat the ldeal dlstrict ehould contaln?

A. 1.17,635 voEers.

Q. All rlght. And You ---
A. --- Orr excuse me, PoPulation.

Q. --- OkaY, and You entltled ---

A. --- Because You cant t ---
q. --- Gullford county -- or you determlned Gullford

County to be entitled to how many senators?

A. Let ne check ny -- they are short of -- letre seet

one, two, three -- shorE of three.

Depoeltlon Servlces, Ioc. 10-4-82



i-

(.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

*Alrv-s oo
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 52

Q. Itrey are ehort of three. So in order to entltle

then ldeally to threer You would have to, agalnr fracture

county llnes ln Guilford Cor:ntY?

A. Thatr e correct.

Q. And that le what you dld when you drew the plan?

A. Ihatr s correct

Q. All rlght, elr. L€t me geE thle etralght absolutely

lnto the record.

Utren you fractured the Gullford County lines, You

were, ln effect, were you not, advertent only to numbers of

people?

A. That ls correct.

MS. HEEMN: Mr. Horton, ls lt okaY lf I

Just ask a few questlons, and then I thlnk that w111 be lt?

Do you nlnd my double-teamlng the wltness?

MR. HORTON: Ttrat wlII be all righc.

MS. IIEEMN: Ttrank )ou. Just a couple

thlngs.
EXAMINATION

BY MS. HEENAN TO MTCHAEL S. MTCIIAJ-IQ:

Q. Mr. Michalec, when you were formulatLng these plane,

dld you ever compute or lncorporate lnto your data voting,

age populatlon?

A. No.

Q. I{hen you rfere formulatlng your plan, dLd you have

Depoaltlon Servlces, Ioc. LO-4-82



(-

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

15

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

MlchaeL S. Mlchalec Page 53

any knowledge of ntrere the lncumbent ---
A. --- No.

Q. --- Leglslators llved?

A. (No responee)

Q. Mr. Mlchalec, have you ever studled or looked at or

been farnlllar wlth ln any way the reaPPortlonment plans of

any other state?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any other basls or knowledge as to nhat

the population deviatlon or populatlon variances are ln

other etates?

A. No, I do not.

Q. In your oplnlon, ls a state leglslatlve reapPortlon-

ment plan of the type with wtrlch wetre deall.g, ls a popula-

tlon devlatLon of -- Iet me strlke that for a second.

What are the overall devlatLon, from hlghest to

Iowest, ln your plan?

A. I dont t have any ldea exact-- I donr t have those

figures we went through.

Q. --- Can you sort of ---
A. Itre

Q. --- Not summarlze, but, you know....

A. I.Ie can do lt by Just golng through ---
MR. HORTON: --- I.Ihy dont t you let hln

refresh his recollectlon.

Depoaltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



8..

C

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 54

MS. HEEMN: Okay, that would be flne.
THE IIITMSS: Okay. 

.

MR. HORTON: Off the record Just a nolllent.

(of f- record discueslon)

MS. IIEEMN: Back on record.

THE I{ITMSS: In the house. we had a range

of a minus 4.957 percent to a plus 4.454 Percent.

Q. (Ms. Heenan) And how about the Eenate?

A. In the Benace we had a mlnus 4.974 Percent to a plus

4.800 percent.

Q. Now, Mr. Mlchalec, ln your oplnion, would you eay

ltte a fatr Btatement to eay that the more oEher crlterla
one considers ln additlon to the populatlon equallEy' the

more factors you would try to lncorporate lnto your plan,

the nore difflcult lt would be to accommodate or to keeP

the devlatlons if you try to accomoodate other thlngs,

does lt -- would you say lt gets lnore dlfficult ---
A. --- YeB.

Q. --- To keep the populatlon down?

A. Sure.

Q. Returning to the genesls of thls plan that we have

ln front of ue right now, nowr thls ls the only plan youtve

drawn?

A. Thatr e correct.
q. Were there other plans ln process that were reflned

B2I:rv-s oo

1l

Depoaltlon Serviceel Inc. 10-4-82



L,,

(.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Michalec Page 55

or fine-Euned that Ied to thle?

A. Oh, there wouLd have to be.

Q. Okay. Could you explaln thaE a llttle blt for ne?

I rn probably not as fanlllar wlth the conputer Process as I

ehould be.

A. WeIl, the vay that you work through thls klnd of a

situatlon ls you begln to lay out a p1an, and then I would

try and let the comPuter teLl me wtrether that plan wae golng

to fall wlthtn the establlshed crlterla or not. And lf lE

dfd not, lt would report back to me where the devlations

were, and we would begln to work and try to work Ehose dev-

latlons out without causlng too much of a rlpple effecE from

there on out.

Q. Dld you ever actuallY draw a naP?

A. No.

Q. So you used the census data and ---

A. --- And the rnap that the sEate provlded us with.

This tnap.

Q. So you ---
A. --- lJhtch hae the populatlon by countles ---

Q. --- Right.

A. --- Vislbly on lt.

Q. And by townshlps?

A. PIus you nade the -- and by towoshlpsr yes.

Q. So you bullt the plan frorn the etatlstice?

B2l!crv-s O o

Depoaltlon Servlce8, Inc. 10-4-82



(

C,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

t4

15

16

17

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

,r{rv-s oo
Mlchael S. llichalec Page 56

A. uh-huh (yes) .

Q. And not on a map and then ---
A. --- No. TtIaEr I correct. Thatr I correct. I ueed

two dlfferent maps. I used one that -- where I had the

votlng righte cor:ntles underllned in red, and lt gave the

total popuLatlon for each county, and I used. that as a

master, and then thls as a workLng tool, where we had all
the lndivldual townshlpe.

Q. When you drew this p1an' did you have any lnfor-
matlon avallable to you as to Past voting Patterne or

practices?

A. No.

Q. Maybe it would be easler lf I aeked you to flnd thls

for me.

Can you telI me rihaE distrlct ntrmber ls Cunberland

County on your house plan?

A. Itrs on here. Cumberland County ls under 23.

Q. Okay. Mr. Mlchalec, do you have any opinion as to

whether or not your configuratlon of a five-nember distrlcC

in Cumberland Cor:nty adequately allows black voters an

opportunlty to elect ---
A. I have no opLnion.

Q. You dtd testlfy earller that you began in the

eastern part of the state tn Ehe nr:nberlng?

A. No. Only ln the resPect that I took the flnlshed

Depoeltlon Servlces, Iac. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

o
Mlchael S. Ulchalec Page 57

plan and renumbered lE fron that way back.

Q. Oh, okay.

A. I dld not starE ln Ehe eastern part of the state to

reapportlon.

Q. Where dld you begln your reapportlonlng?

A. Wtth the largest populatlon countles. flret.

Q. Okay. And those would be? Do you remember offtrand?

A. Mecklenbuf,B , Forsyth, lJake , Grll ford; looklng at

those first.

Q. Now, you say you Looked at those first. Dld you

draw or construct dlstrlcte in each of those places?

A. Thatrs a little hard to eay ntrether I really dld or

I didntt, because aB thlngs work out, lt Eakes several

iterations through the data to determlne r*rether or noE you

have the rlght populatlon to falI wlthln the Percentageg

the guidel,lneB.

To be honest wlth Your I really donrt remember. I

-- whether or not we actually apportioned some out or not.

I thlnk the flrst look was to look at those countles, I

guess, to Bee tf they would ftE lflthln -- wLthln the frame-

work of the nulti-menbered distrlcts, and try that, and then

go through the other countles and see what would work out.

But ltt s a matter of -- ltr s all lost ln the tech-

nlque. It --1t -- I really, I guess, cantt say that I '

Btarted all the tLme ln the same place, okay? Or that each

Depoeltlon Servlces, IDc. 10-4-82



Er-

(

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

rv-5

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 58

tlne I took only the Largeet cognEieg. I took thaE aB my

flreE look at Ehe -- look at lt, but I nay have dlecarded

that very early. I reelly donr t remember.

The way the whole thlng was deveLoped, ic was deve-

loped over a perLod of tlne, and I dld not apead concen-

trated Eirae on the thtng. I cantt -- you *9r, I am self-

ernployed, and I canrt afford to Mlckey Mouse arotrnd wlth

this foreverr you know, Ilke a forty- or elxty-hour week, ao

lt was hard to eay. We would -- I would work away et it and

then come back, and Ehen work away at lt and come back at

lt, ao itte a ltttle hard to 88Ir exactly.

But I dld not do ntrat they aPParently dld, whlch was

to sEarE at the eastern Part of Che Etate and move west. I

did not do thag. Itm not sure at what polnt I went to the

eastern part of the state or nhatev€t.

There are solDe troublesome counties ln thle state

from a statlstlcal polnt of view, and those were the oneB

that Eook most of the wrestllng around to deEermtne what to

do wlth then. You know, again, the only crlterla -- the

criterla I had was Eo see lf !t was posslble to do lt.

Q. Ttrls probably w111 ny last questlon. Maybe wer11

mark thls. I have here the letter from the Department of

Justice Eo Mr. Brock, dated Ehe 30th of November 1981.

MS. IIEENAN: And letts mark this Defenee

Exh1blt, whatever wetre oD.

82

Depoaltloa Servlces, IDc. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 59

[Defendantrs D(hlbtt 5 was
marked for Ehe PurPoBe of
ldentlflcatlonl

(of f- record dlscusslon)

Q. (lts. Ileenan) Mr. Mlchalec, Ir11 ehow you Defen-

dantrs Erhtbit 5 and ask you to read through that. The

flrst couple paragraphs are the most pertlnent, but ltre not

that long ao you may want to read through the r*role thlng.

[wLtness examlned docr,rment]

Q. Have you seen that letter before or ---

A. -:- No.

Q. --- Had an opportunlty to read tt?

A. (No responae)

Q. Dld you know Ehat lE exletedr oE a comnunlcatlon

conveylng that lnforroation from the Departnent of Justlce to

the state exleted?

A. Etom nerrspapers, thatre all. Just know wtrat they

were golng through down there, yeah. ThatrB rlght.
q. Do you have an oplnlon as to wtraE ls neanE by

deminlmis?

A. No.

Q. Do you have an oplnlon aB to wtrat ls meant by

ratlonal state pollcy ln Ehe context of redistrlctlng?

MR. HORTON: t{elIr maY I obJect to the

form of these questlone, because youtre asking an oplnlon of

an area that he le not quallfled ln and hasnrt purported to

Depoaitlon Servlees, IDc. 10-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 60

be quallfled ln.
fiIE TJITMSS: No, I really donrt have any

oplnlon at all; no.

MS. HEEMN: Okay. I have no frrrther

questions.

MR. WALI"ACE: Do you have anythlng you

want to ask?

z MS. SIIILEY: Why dontt we take a flve-
mlnute break and Just and talk for ---

.

MR. WALI"ACE: --- Do you nlnd lf we do

that?

I,[R. HORTON: Not aE all.
Igrlef recess]

Q. (Ms. Heenan) Ird llke to aek one partlcular ques-

tion. Now, I dont t mean to be fishlng; thle le to eatlefy

my curlosLty. Now, lf I mlestate your testlnony, I feel

aure that you w111 correct me, ao let me venture thls.
You sald that your crlEerlon or at least the over-

rldlng concern was populatlon equallty, and Ehatr s'what

gulded you Ln butlding thie plan?

A. Thatrs correct.

Q. Okay. Now, I would assume that Ehere are lnstances

where you wouLd have more than one cholce ln what to hlcch

on to Ln order to equallze the populatlon ln a county where

theret e a Bhortager oE where you separated townshlps fron a

Bz-rv-s oo

lr

Depoeltlon Servtces, Inc. 10-4-82



E"-

{

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

C

Michael S. Mlchalec Page 61

counEy by neceesity, and you have to hook them on Bomeuhere

else. There would ordlnarlly be more than one option.

A. No, thaEts not really true. If you look ac the con-

tlgulty of 'the countles r you -- you have to plck those rttrlch

are contlguous to the next counEy the townshlps that are

contlguous to the next county

You really donrt have as -- matter of fact, there

are aome countles ln the state that you really -- you cantt

spllt. I mean, those there are three or four or flve blg

townships, and itte very dtfflcult to spllt them, because

they Just send the next distrlct over, and very diffl-
cultr Bo you have to look ln other dlrections.

If you rrere to look at the dlrectlon wlth rfilch
yourre golng to Bo, y€sr but by the time you get to -- have

to spllt a county, youtve already pretty much eetabllshed

your dlrectlon. Yourve dectded r'trlch groups of cor:ntles or

whlch cormty ls pretty much golng to etand ln a -- on 1t8

OIilfI .

Q. Well, what lnfluenced your cholce as to r*trlch coun-

tles would

A. --- Uould be ---
Q. --- Stay together and whlch would stand on lts own?

A. Strlctly the way in whlch the plan was put together,

meaning that there -- the crlEeria was that lf I had to --
flret of all, I trled not to spllt any county. A11 rtght?

I

I

ir

Depoaltlon Servlce8, Iac. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

az-ru-s aa
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 62

And what I was coming to very fast was very large dlstrlct8

too large dletricts, and we were golng to have to make

epIlts, even -- you know, ln the beglnnlng, even lf you

ended up spllttlng -- letre 8ee, I epllt thlrteen countleg

on the sEate -- for the houee. Ttrey spllt twency-four.

Orlginally I was trying to get lt --. get lt down to

a little snaller group of countles that would be spllt, and

lt just wasnt t poesible without lncreasLng the eLze of the

distrLcts. And ao they became -- ln ny Judgment, at that

point ln tine they became Eoo large -- geographically too

1arge.

So what happens Ls thaE ntren you work -- lf you --
lf you looked only at one rray of golng across the state,

letre say from east to rrest, then youtre -- you are -- you

rnay have some choices. However, thattg not the way the plan

was put together.

It was put together ln varlous sections and ln

lettlng those sectlons meet together. And then rrhen we ran

into a problem, I might have had to move out tn one dlrec-

Eion or another directLon, whlchever direction really looked

feaslble. So you canrt realIy say that there was always

more than one choice. That depends on where you were at

that tlme. Okay?

Q. Was there ever more than one choice?

A. No. Not ln rny opinlon, anyway, the way the plan wae

Depoaltlon Servlces, Iuc. LO-4-82



2

3

4

5

6

7

(.

I

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page

put together. Not f:om the baels from where I etartedl DO.

Okay?

MS. HEEMN: I thlnk thatre lt.
MR. WALI"ACE: Irve got Juet a few more.

(of f- record dlscuseton)

E)(AMINATION

BY MR. WALI"ACE TO MICHAEL S. MIC}IALEC:

Q. Let me ask you thls, please, slr. AB you drew the

plans, dld you have a number of eeoators or rePresentatives

representlng a glven dlstrict, over r*rlch you dld not want

to go?,

MR. HORTON: I donr t r:nderstand the queE-

tion.
MR. I{ALLACE: A11 right. What Irn asklng

hfun ls when he drew rnultl-member distrlcts, was there Eo hlm

what he considered to be an unacceptable number of repreaen-

tatives or senators from any glven distrlct that he drew?

In other words, 8t what point, if at any polnt, dld

they become unacceptably large for hln in terns of the num-

bers of representatlves or senators coning to Ralelgh?

THE I,IITNESS: No. It was rnore the total

geographic area than lt was the number of senators. You can

Bee that we dld leave Mecklenburg Cor:nty lntact wlth elght

representatlves, and because the crlterla was not to spllt a

non-Voting Rights Acc ---

63

Depoaltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



b.

(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

15

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

,r-*u-, oo
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 64

MR. WAIJACE: --- Rlght, rlght.
THE WITMSS: --- Appllcable courty, Meck-

lenburg would have had to sEay lntact. However, ltre not

that large a geographlc area.

Q. (Mr. Wallace) A11 right. Do you know what county

or what distrlct that encomPassee the naJorlty of the PoPu-

latlon of a county ls represented by the trost Eenatorsr ln

your plan?

A. I{e11r Bo over that agaln, slow1y.

Q. I nay have to -- do you know utrat county, lf you

stayed wlthln county boundarles, or r*tat dlstrlcc thaE

encompasses the rnaJorlty of the populatlon of a corxtty that

sends the most Benators to the general assembly, under your

plan?

A. Itd have to look at -- look at the plan to see lf I

could flnd that out.

Q. Well, to do thaE r You would tr,ave to go through your

computer prlntouts that wetve ---
A. --- ThaErs right.

Q. Introduced aB Exhibits I and 2

A. --- Thatrs correct.

Q. --- And EhaE lnformation is contained.

A. --- llaybe I ought to say somethlng. Maybe youtve

Just never dealt wlth peopLe Llke me before, buE I forget

all the data that I ever worked wlth. I mean, I work wlth

Depositlon ServlceEl IDc. 10-4-82



C

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

*r-{ru-, a a
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 65

flnanclal statements wlth ny cllents all the tlne, and you

have a trabit of alwaye forgettlng that on purpoee, whlch la

why I cant t remember ---

Q. I thlnk ltre pretEy adnlrable how nuch youtre

rememberlng, for the record. I Just....
A. I remember the crlterla alwaysr oE al9 paraneterst

and I mlght remember certaln particular asPects of prograns

or systems ln general, but the data that oPerates wlthln

those is generally lost.

Q. Dld you make any attenpt to draw nu1tl-member as

opposed to slngle-member dletrlcts, or eingle-nember ea

opposed to nultl-member, or did it matter to you at all?

A. I trled to ---

Q. --- Staylng within county llnes.

A. --- Staylng wlthln collnty llnes as much as poeslblet

to draw single-nember as much as possible.

Q. Wtry did you do that?

A. I Just felt that it thatr s Just ny Partlcular

Judgment on wtrether or not -- that Just made more sense.

Q. Why dld lt nake Bore aenae to You?

A. Because of the Eotal generally the total geo-

graphic area lnvolved.

Q. Uell, how dld single-member distrlcts relate to the

totaL geographical area lnvolved?

A. If you take -- especlally Ln the western part of the

Depoaltloa Servlce8l Inc. 10-4-82



I

(t; 
,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

t4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

azfar,-s oo-
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 66

Btate, where you take all of the countles down ln the uoun-

talns and you make -- they all baslcally -- you can Eake

that r*role plece of the boot down there and take all of then

together and make two -- two members or two aenatorsr oE

four members, thls klnd of thlng.

Q. t h-huh

A. But itrs a very wide geographic area, and I tended

not to do that.

Q. So you ernployed ln your reaPPortionment plans a Pre-

ference for single-rnember dlstrlcts?

A. Wighout splitting county lines, yes.

Q. All right, si.r.

A. Okay.

Q. Are you aware of the percentage of registered voEere

ln the Btate who are reglstered as RepublLcane?

A. No, only ln ForsYth Cor'rntY.

Q. Only in Foreyth County. You do know the number of

reglstered Republlcane and Democrats ln Forayth Corurty?

A. Approxlmately, Yes.

Q. A11 rlghc. Hsve you ever made any attempt to deter-

mine what effect the slngle-nember dtstrlctlng -- these

single-member districting or Forsyth Cor:nty would have tn

terms of the Republlcan Partyr s effort to elect senatora or

representatlvee co the general assenbly?

A. No.

Depoeltlon Servlces, Inc. 10-4-82



llll-

(i

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

t7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 57

Q. Are you a reglstered voter?

A. Yes.

Q. And how are you reglstered?

A. Irm a regletered Republlcan.

Q. Okay. Have you ever done that wlth resPect co any

part of the Btete?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever heard froro any source that ln anyonet e

oplnlon the Republlcan Party could derlve beneflt from the

exisEence of single-nember dietricte in the noncovered

netropolltan areas of the etate?

A. No, Irve never ---

Q. --- You have never heard Ehat?

A. Irve never heard thatl Do.

Q. Has thaE ever lndependently occurred to you?

A. No, because Irve Just to be honest wlth Your

donr t have the time to think about Ehat kind of thlng.

MR. WALLACE: I have no further questlona.

MS. HEEMN: I have no fureher questlons.

MR. HORTON: Let me ask Just one or tltot

then.

MR. WALI"ACE: Do you want to aek anythlng?

MS. SI'IILEY: I was Just curlous . . . .

EXAMINATION

BY MS. SMILEY TO MICHAEL S. MIC}IALEC:

1l

Depoeltlon Servlces; Inc. 10-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,r-*rr-, o
Michael S. Michalec Page 68

Q. I{here else was too large geographlcally, and

epeclflcally, did you find any place ln the east that uae --
when you Bay r*hatts too large geographlcally, could you

tdentify Bome other areaa ---
A. --- Well

Q. --- And glve us a llttIe more ---
A. If you take an example of thelr dletrlct number

2 I thlnk thatr s 2 rlght ln the eastern part of the

Btate, where lt covers Currituck, Canden, Pasquotank, Per-

quimans, .Chowan, Washlngton, Ilrrell, and Dare, thattB an

awful bLg area.

If I were runnLng for public offlce down there, I
would find lt awfully dlfflcult to cover all of that par-

tlcular general arear oE to represent -- I guees represent

thoee people.

Theret e another -- wheret s the therer a one tn the

senate, too. TtreretB a very, very large senate dietrlcE

here. Letrs see -- whac -- excuse E€r here lt ls. Here lt
18. Here lt ls here.

In the senate, dlstrict nunbeE 1, also tn che

eastern part of the Btate, goea alL the way down to PamlLco

from Currltuck. Thatts an awful, awful large area, at leaet

to me, Just looking at the ID8p.

And out ln the western part of che state, thelr --
their dlstrlct nr:nber 29 ln the senate covers an awful large

Depoeltlou Servlce8. Inc. 10-4-82



tl&

("

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

a
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 69

area for -- with two representativee. Thatrs awful moun-

talnous country, too.

And Irm not aure -- Irve not been down in that

eastern part of the state down there, but I donrt know how

Bany roads are down there, but lt would be awful hard to get

acrosg aome of that....
MR. HORTON: You need ferries.
THE WITMSS: Yeah, across the sound.

Q. (Y". Snlley) Oh, 8o In the east dld you look at

brldge access and

A. --- Did not.

Q. --- As for contLnulty -- contlgulty ---
A. --- Dld not. ContlgultY?

Q. Yeah, conElgulty.

A. No, I dld not. I have trouble wlth Ehat wordr too.

No, I dld not.

Q. And so mostly, in terms of too btg geographlcallyt

youtre talking about the far east and the far west?

A. Ttratts -- well, thaLrs correct. Some ln the --

toward the center of the state, but there are less in the

center of the state, I thlnk, that ---

Q. --- Where in the center? Would you ldentlfy r*tere

you ended up with what you felt were too blg and had to do

sonethlng? /

A. WelL, I donrt remember. I would really have to....

Depoeltlon ServlceE, Inc. LO-4-82



\r

(

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

I

2

3

t7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

BzI,,rv-s oo
Mlchael S. Mlchalec Page 70

Q. Would Lt have been covered countles in the north-

ea8tern sectLon or tn the eastern section ---
A. --- No, most of them were ln the south, Bouth

central.

a. South and south central?

A. (ulltness moved head up and down)

MS. SI'IILEY: Tkratts all. I w88 Just....
MR. I{ALLACE: Are you through?

MS. IIEEMN: [rh-huh.

E)GMINATION

BY MR. HORTON TO MICHAEL S. MICIIALEC:

Q. Mr. Mlchalec, Iet me ask jusE one or two questlons.

They nay be redundant ln the sense, ln effect, they nay have

been asked before, but I would like to Bort of encapsulate

your testfunony lf rile may.

First, throughout your deposltlon you have used

thelr map or Eheir plan, and Ir11 ask you, Just for the

record, when you refer to thelr plan, do you mean the offl-
clal plan adopted by the general asserobly that ls suppoeedly

in effect now?

A. Yes, I do, uh-hutr.

Q. All rlght. And wtren, of eourser Iou sald your plan

or our planr you meant the one that you youreeLf prepared?

A. Rlght.

Q. Where dld you obtaln the data that you used tn

Depoeltlon Servlces; IEc. 10-4-82



(.
I

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

23

24

25

(.

Michael S. Mlchalec Page 71

nakLng your calculatlons and comlng up wlth your planl !lr.
Mlchalec?

A. It came fron the State of North Carollna, the offlce
of leglslatlve services. I guees thatre where lt came from.

They provided us wlth a magnetic tape, computer readable

forn, of the census data

Q. And dld you take Ehat magnetic tape and run lt off
and put lt lnto a forn that you couLd use?

A. Yes. Yes, I dld.

Q. Was any of the data changed in this process?

A. No, no.

Q. Dld you use tn every event the same data that you

rrrere advised the state had used?

A. Yes.

Q. What lnstructions were given you by me rshen I asked

you to asslet in this matEer?

A. Number one was to noE spllt -- to oee if lt could be

done wlthout spllttlng non-Votlng Rlghts Act aPPllcable

countles. Thatre baslcally the only criteria. Everythlng

else was judgnental on my part.

Q. A11 rlght. And r*rat results dld you achieve r*ren

you attempted to redLstrlct the Etate wlth resPect to these

lnstructlons?

A. I{e were successful wlthln the -- wlthln the realm of

the parameEers of non-voting rlghts countles not being epllt

oo

!

i
l,

i'

Depoaltlon Servlces, IDc. to-4-82



(

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

L4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,rI'r-, oo
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 72

and the plus-or-mlnus flve percent ntrlch ls dlctated ln both

plans.

Q. A11 right. Now, are you saylng, then, that you have

demonstrated in your plan that the state can be redisEricted

without spllttlng non-voting rights countles?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you attempt to subdlvide countles, multi-aeac

countles?

A. Nor I did not. No, I dld not.

Q. Thls ls not to say, I gather, ME. Mlchalec, that

they could not be split?
A. No, thatrs true. ThatrB true. They could be split.

I -- we had already talked about a sectlon of Guilford

County that was that there was a poesibiLlty for.

Q. Now, from the etandpoint of slnple computer exPer-

ience and logic or t*tatever, how dlfflcult a comPucer task

dld this present?

A. WelI, I dld not use the comPuter to actually make

the redistrtctlng plan. What we dld was to fornultste the

redistrlctlng plan and use Lhe comPuter Eo Prove whether we

were rlght or wrong r or to glve us lnterlm evalr:atlons of

the plan thet we -- that we were dolng.

We dld not use -- one of the problene that you have

ls the contiguity of countles and townehlps. Yourd have to

have all that programmed into the comPuter, and I really

Depoeltlon Servlces, IDc. 10-4-82



l}.'-

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

t2

13

L4

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

(,

22

23

24

25

a
Mlchael S. Michalec Page 73

dldnrt have the tfune to go through and do all that.

Q. tJtren you lnspected the statere plan, dld you con-.

clude whether they had cranked lnto thelr plan contlgulty

data?

A. No, I as far as I know, what -- wlth the programs

thar I looked Et, they did not.

Q. Could you tel1, looking at thelr program, r*rether

they had cranked lnto lt any racial dilutlon faccore?

A. As far as I know, they did not.

Q. Did they crank ln any economic facEore?

A. No.

Q. Did they crank ln any geographic facEore?

A. No, not aB far as I know. NoE -- not as far as r*rat

-- what I read ln their programsl fio.

Q. And did they crank lnEo Ehelr program any provlslons

for protectlng inctrmbents?

A. No.

Q. Are you saylng, then, that thelr plan was elnply a

mathematLcal or calculatLng assistance, 1n whlch they used

census data to help then wlth calculatlons?

A. That would be roy oplnl-on at thls polnt ln ttme.

Thatr s correct.

Q. In your planr 8e you completed lt, Mr. Micha1ec, dld

you succeed in naklng more compact dietrlcto than the plan

adopted by the general assernbly?

Depoeltlon Servlcea; Ioc. LO-4-82



2

3

11

L2

13

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

C

t

,retu-, o o
Michael S. Michalec Page 74

A. I think so, uh-hutr (yes).

Q. Did you succeed ln eplittlng less counties than chey

epI it?
A. Oh, absolutely, uh-hutr (yes).

Q. How many counties did you split ln the eenate?

A. I eplit eight, and they also spllt elght ln the

senate. Oh -- yeah.

Q. Did you split seven or elght?

A. Seven. I thlnk I spllt aeven. Excuse me.

Q. So you split one less county in the senate than they

split?
A. tlh-huh (yes) .

Q. How many counties dld you spllt ln the house?

A. Itrlrteen, and they spllt twenty-four.

Q. All right, sLr. Dld you succeed ln not dlvidlng any

non-votlng rlghts countles?

A. Yes, I dld succeed ln not dolng -- ln not divlding

non-voting rlghts counties.

Q. And in comparlng the deviations between the hlgheet

and lowest of thelr countlee, could you tell us with resPecc

to the houser 88y, wheEher you succeeded ln havlng a lower

range of devLatlon from the norm?

A. Yes. In the house I dld -- I was successful ln

achLevLng a lower range. In the Eenate I was not. I wae

slxteen-hundredths of a percentage polnt higher.

Deposltlon Serv1ce8, IDc. LO-4-82



(,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

I

Michael S. Michalec Page 75

Q. Thatr s slxteen-hundredthe of one percentage polnt?

A. Thatr s correct.

Q. In the senate. And what was the dlfference tn the

house, in terms of percenEage polnts?

A. Letrs see, rf,e were about divLde and eubtract thaE

out thirty -- about four-tenths of a percent lower.

Q. That le, lower than their devlatlon?

A. (witness moved head up and down)

It[R. HORTON: I belleve thatrs all I have.

MR. WALI"ACE: I have a few more now.

E)(AMINATION

BY MR. WALI.ACE TO MICHAEL S. MIC}IALEC:

Q. Irm very confused, slr, about aE least an lnplica-

tion in your testlmony. Irn golng to Iet you heLp rne

straighten that out, lf you would, please.

You say that you recelved computer lnformatlon in

the form of a tape

A. --- RLght.

Q. --- From the legislative services offlce.
A. Lrh-huh (yes) .

Q. Is that correct?

A. Thatr s correct.

Q. All rlght. Now, you took from that tape the census

data for the State of North Carollna?

A. Thatr s correct.

I
I

i
l

I

1l

Depoaltlou Servlcee, Inc. 10-4-82



(.

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2l

22

23

24

25

,r-*r-,
Michael S. Mlchalec Page 76

Q. All rlght. Now, you reePonded to one of Mr. Hor\

tonrs questlons -- and Irm not sure -- I donrt think for

sure I can even paraphrase lt but by the time you

answered lt I got the dlstlnct funpression that fron using

the tape only it wae aPParent to you thaE no other consider-

ation other than mathematlcal equallty had been used by the

leglslatuE€ ---
A. --- No.

Q. In drafting lts reaPPortlonment plan?

A. Walt a minute. That lsnrt -- the questlon -- his

questlon was whether or not the conPuter Programs ueed any

more daEa.

Q. OkaY.

A. Okay?

Q. OkaY.

A. Ttre computer programs, Eo the best of ny knowledget

did not.

Q. But tC would be entirely possible for all of Ehese

other factors ---
A. --- Oh, thatrs absolutelY true.

Q. --- To be considered by someone ln drawing a plan

and then rr:n lt on the computer to check for accuracy.

A. Ihatr s correct.
.

Q. Is that correct?

A. llh-huh (yes) .

Depoeltlon Services, Iac. l0-4-82



I

2

3

8

9

(.

10

11

L2

13

14

15

16

L7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

t

Michael S. Michalec Page 77

Q. And the essence of the Eestlnony today le that you

dtd not incorporate those factors prlor to checklng your

plans on the computer?

A. Thatt s correct.

Q. A11 rlght. You have no way of knowlng, do you,

whether Ehe legLelature consldered all of those other

factors?

A. Thatrs right, uh-hutr.

MR. IJAIIACE: I have no further questlone.

THE WITMSS : Okay.

MR. HORTON: Thatrs lE then. Mike, thank

you 60 much.

MS. IIEEMN: Okay. Ttrank your Mr. Mlch-

alec.

THE I{ITMSS: Okay.

WI{EREUPON,

at lL:12 or clock 8.ut. the deposltlon was adJourned

on the same day lt was begun.

Depoeltlon Servlceol Inc. 10-4-82



L"

2

3

4

t.

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

16

L7

18

19

20

2t

22

14

15

23

24

25

1

Michael S. Mlchalec Page

CB.TIFICATION

I, Charlotte M. Perry, Notary Pnbllc and Court

Reporter ln and for the County of Foreyth, State of North

Caro1lna, do hereby certify:
ThaE there appeared before me

in Ehe above-entltled causel

the foregolng witnees

That the sald deposltlon was conducted at
I

the tfune

and place hereln aforementloned;

That the eald witness, MICHAEL S. MICHALEC, was aworn

by me and examined to state the truth, the whole truth, and

nothLng but the truth, ln sald cause;

That the teetimony was taken by rne and recorded by

Stenomask, and thereafter reduced to t;pewrltlng under ny

direct supervlsion, and the foregolng (77) pages are a

complete and accurate record of all the testinony glven by

sald wltness at sald tlne;

That the underelgned, Charlotte M. Perry, ls not of

kln, nor ln anyrlse assoclaEed with any of the parties to

sald cause of action, nor thelr counsel, and that I am not

lnterested ln the event(s) thereof.

IN I{ITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and

seal, rhis rhe Lorh day of

ofFrcra! sEAt

CHARLOTTE M. PERRY

NOTARY PUBTIC-NORIH CAROT]NA

Counly of FonYlh 27L04lly Commlrrlon Expiu Novcmbor 9l !T!

1n-L-A'

78

rlotte M. Perry
Depositlon Servlcee,
4825 Gladwyn Drlve
Winston-Sa1em, N.C.

Depoeltlon Services, Inc.



!i+

(

C.

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

I
9

10

11

t2

13

14

I5

16

t7

18

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

Mlchael S. Michalec Page 79

I{ITMSS CER,TIFICATION

I, MICHAEL S. MICHALEC, do. hereby certlfy:
That I have read and exanlned the contents of the

foregoing (77) pages of record of testlmony as glven by ne

at the tlne and place hereln aforementloned;

And that to the best of ny knowledge. .and bellef , the

foregolng (77) pages are a complete and accurate record of

all the teetlnony gLven by ne at saLd tlne, except as where

noted on the attachment hereto

,\ Notary Publlc for the

County of ate of4 "P' ' , ,

do hereby certlfy:
That MICHAEL S. MICHALEC personally appeared before

uxn A)

IS

personally wltnessed the executlon of

the lntents and purposes hereln above

me rhls tn" //aaay of (f' - , lgfu
And that I

this docuroent for
descrlbed.

My Commlsslon Explres:

(sual1

OFF'CIALSEAL
*"t'#,i,i$'3ito#l'ytchrronn'

ez-))v-s oo

I

I

l'

Depoeltloa Servlcee, IDc. r0-4-82



I

REAPPORTIONMENS CRITERIA

r.

The legislatlve staff assigned to the project of redis-

tricting North Carolinats General AssembIy, together wlth the

statisticlans retalned by the General .Assembly to asslst the

leglslatlve staff shall be guldled by the followlng standards

ln the developnent of the plans for the House and the Senate'

l. Each legislative distriet, shall ln accordance wlth

the requlrements of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of

the United States be drawn so as to contain 48 1954 people Per

House member and 117r{89 for each Senate member. The populatlon

of each district shall no.t vary frorn the above flgures by nore

than a + 5t and the average deviatlon for each House shall not

exceed 3.25$. .

2. rn order to avold the dilutlon of the votlng

rights of racial minorlties as Protect,ed by the Vottng

Rights Act of 1965 and t,he l{th and 15th Amendmente to the

United States Congtitution, a DisErlct shaIl be created

wherever there are concentrations of racial minoritles

that can, without affirmative gerrymanderlng, contaln 50t

or more of such raclal minority and where Practicable,

such district shall be construeted 8o that such raclal

ninorities shall constitute 65t of the population in such

d istricts.



a( oo
-2-

3.Allleglslatlvedlstrlctsghallconslstofcontlguous

terrltory as requlred by the North carollna constltutlon and ehall

be as conpact as is practlcable consiSt'ent' wlth requlrements I and

2 above.

4.Nocountyshallbesubdivldednorshallacountyllne

be broken unrees nece'sary to meet the requiremenbs of l and 2 above'

5.Totheextentconsistentwit,halloftheaboverequlre-

ments, dlstricts should be constructed Bo as to recognlze the

staiers historic conmunlties and commonalities of int'erests with

respect to the inhabitants and constrtuencies within such distrlcts

provided such consideration shall not vloLate any of the principles

listed ln paragraphs I through 4 aboveo '

S,Totheextentnotineonsistentwithalloftheabove

standards and in order to minlmize voter confusibn and maintaln

the lnterests set out ln paragraph 5 abover Pf€s€nt legislatlve

district lines shaIl be preserved'

T.Duringthecourseofitswork'legislativestaff

assignedtot,hereapPortionmentProcesashallconsultwlththe
Attorney General and retalned counsel wlth respect to any legal

issuesanqshallneetregularlywiththecommitteesofthe
House and Senate appolnted for this PurPose'



ao
-3-

8. The staff shall conplete tts work to the end that

alegislatlveproposallspreparedforeachcommitteetohold

PublichearlngsontherespectiveplanstheweekofFebruary
I,IgE2.Thecomnitteestaffshalllinconsultationrit'h
the conmittee and counsel' PrePare a nrall'ing notifying

lnt,erestedindividualsandorganizatlonsthroughoutt,ha

etat,e of the date and time of such public hearings and

shalI also cause approprlate Press releases to be prepared

for the media. The staff shall also PrePare such notices

forpubllcatlonlnthelegalnotlcessect,ionofapproprlat,e
neusPaPers.

9. After the

resPectlve committ'ees

Attorney General and

priate and PrePare a

I,egislature the week

.a

publlc hearlngs have been helcl the

shall seek such oPinions from the

retalnecl counsel as they deem aPPro-

report, to be acted uPon bY the

of FebruarY 8r 1982'



(

AFFIDAUIT

tX; €* 4

lJilliam Kenneth Ha?e, being duly swgrn, deposes and says:

1. .I am ur attorney licensed in the State of tbrth Carolina and an employed

by the North Carolina General Assembly. I have served as staff counsel to.the

House Legislative Redistricting Cormittee since January 1981.

2, In October 1981, the North Carolina General Assembly adopted a redistrict-

ing plan for the North Carollna House of Representatives that did not contravene

the North Carolina constitutional provislons prohibiting the divislon of countles

in the formation of districts and that had an overall range of deviation from'the

ideal population for representative districts of 15.61X. (The first redistricting

plan for the House passed by the General Assembly in July 1981, had also followed

the constitutiona'l provisions prohibiting the division of counties and had an

overa'll range of deviation o.f !3,61.) The 0ctober plan was submitted to the United

States Department of Justice for preclearance pursuant to Section 5 of lhe Voting

Rights Act of 1955, as amended, (4? U.S.C. 51973, et seq.).

3. Pursuant to the Voting Rights Act of 1955, 40 of the 100 counties in the

State of North Carolina are covered by the Act, nhich requires the counties to'sub-

mit any change in voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, or standard,

practice, or procedure to the United States Attorney General for preclearance prior

to any such change becoming effective as law. (Approval of such changes may also

be obtained by seeking a declaratory judgment in the United States District Court

for the District of Columbia,) In 1968, Article II, S3(3) and 55(3) of the North

Carolina Constitution had been amended to prohibit the division of counties in the

formation of Senate and Representative districts. A1though these amendments v€re

subject to the preclearance provisions of Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, they

were not submitted to the United States Department of Justice until September 1981.

The Attorney General interposed an objection, by'letter dated 30 November 1981, to

the constitutional amendments insofar as they affected the covered counties. The

objection letter noted that the prohibition agu.l:tt dividing the 40 covered

counties in the formation of Senate and House distr.icts predictably required, and

had ]ed to the use of, Iarge multi-member districts, The letter noted further,

that the use of such multi-member districts necessarily submerges cognizable

minority population concentrations into larger wtrite electorates.



4. By letter dated January 20, L982, an obJection was lnterposed by the

Attorney General to the october House plan because lt rould have resulted in a sub-

mergence of black,roting strength. me o[iction letter noted that the House plan

had employed large nulti<nember districts *rich effectively submerged sizeable

concentrations of black population into a majority r*rite electorate and wtrich rvere

apparently a conseguence of the State's adherence during redistricting to the 1968

constitutional anendment. The objection letter also specifically noted that the

use of a county-wide district in Guilford County submerged a significant concenira-

tion of Ulaik cltizens in the city of Greensboro t*rere black Persons comprise over

one-third of ine ctty's population, Cumberland County was a'lso pointed out as an

area where concentrations of black citizens likewise suffered a submergence of

ineir voting strength as a result of large multi-member districts. .The objection

letter also specifically pointed to the northeastern counties of Bertie, Gates,

Halifax, Hertford, Martin and Northampton (previously District 5 under the 1971

p'lan), where the black population percentage of 57.5f in the 1971 three-member

district had been reduced to 51,7X, wtrich appeared to be a retrogression in the

position of racia'l minorities with respect to their effective use of the electora'l

franchl se,

5. The House Legislative Redistricting Committee (hereinafter the Committee)

on JanUar! 28,1982, adopted a set of criteria, based on federal and State redis-

tricting requirements, to guide them in creating representative districts for the

North Carolina General Assembly. (A copy of these criteria is attached hereto as

Hale Affidavit Exhibit A and is hereby incorporated by.reference as if fu1ly set

forth herein')

6, In light of the objections interposed by the Civil Rights Division of the

United States Department of Justice, and upon examination of the census popu'lation

figures for the counties and townships in the State of North Caro'lina, it is my

opinion that it is necessary in order to create representative districts for the

General Assembly to divide counties that are not covered by the Voting Rights Act.

More specifica'lly, Guilford County was one of thd; counties identified in the objec-

tion'letter received by the State. Guilford County'has a population of 317,154

under the 1980 census. For purposes of "one person, one voten considerations, an

ideal representative district shou'ld contain 49,015 people, Under the 1971 House

district plan, Guilford County was allocated seven representatives, Under the 1980

census, rne roeai poputatron for an area comprising seven representatives ls 3431105.

Under these circumstances, if the Guilford County llouse district was not changed,

-c-



a C:
. t.: 'rts population wou'ld have been 25,951 people less than the ldeal population' wttich

wou'ld yie'ld a relative deviation of -7.56t. In order to bring the relative

deviation for the Guilford districts rrnddi 5I, ntrich rould satisfy the deviation

criterion established by the Conmittee, it was necessary to corobine townships of

another county or counties xith Guilford County townships. The only two counties

contiguous to Gui'lford that are also covered by the Voting Rights Act are

Rockingham and Caswell Counties.

7 . Next, looking at the northeastern counties of North Caro'li na, a'lmost al'l

of which are covered by the Voting Rights Act, the Attorney General had obiected

specif ica'l'ly to the dilution of minority voting strength in Bertie, Gates, Hal if ax,

Hertford, Martin and Northampton Counties, In order to give cognizance to the

significant concentration of black citizens in the northeastern counties, the

Genera'l Assemb'ly created predominantly black House Districts 5 and 7, with black

popu'lation percentages of 61X and 62I respectively. (These di stricts were u'tti-

mately approved by the Attorney General under the Voting R'ights Act as giving black

voters a reasonable opportunity to e'lect candidates ,of their choice,)

In creating these districts so as not to reduce or dilute the voting

strength of b'lack citizens, it was necessary to transfer out of District 7 and into

the new District 22 (comprising Caswell, Person, Granvi'lle, Vance and portions of

Uarren and Ha1ifax Counties), the predominantly white population of the Halifax

County township of Roanoke Rapids. Correspqndingly, it was necessary to transfer

from District 22 and into District 7 the predominantly black townships of Fishing

Creek, Ford, Sandy Creek, Shocco, and l,larrenton. This. resulted in a lowering of

the black population percentage in District 22, *hich district is primarily made up

of counties a'lso covered by the Voting Rights Act and its protections against the

dilution of the effectiveness of black voting strength'

0 
If, in order to bring the popu'lation figures for the Guilford districts

into line with the Conrnittee's relative deviation criterion, the General Assemb'ly.

had transferred townships solely from Rockingham County into the Guilford district,

it wou'ld have been necessary to transfer certain'taswell County townships to the

district comprising Alamance County and the remainder of Rockingham County.

Because of the heavy concentration of black popu'lation in Caswe'lI County, this

would have further diluted the black votlng strength in new District 22 and also

wou1d have necessitated further transfers of townships into District 22 fron other

contiguous counties in nrrter to comoly with the relative deviation criterion of the

Corunittee, Obviously, the trinsfer of any particular township from one district to

another vill have a 'rippleo or niominon effect on surrounding counties and districts.

o

-3-



oo
g. similarly, combining caswell county townships, instead of Rockingham

county townships,'with Guilford county townships to bring the relative deviation of

the Guirford districts into 'rine with the.criterion, rourd not only have the same

minority dilution effect on Distri ct ?2, as rentioned ln Paragraph 8 above, but

wou.ld 
.teave the four-member district consisting of Alamance and Rockingham Counties

13,315 persons short of the idear popuration, with a relative deviation of -6.79/'

10. But for the existence of the voting Rights Act and the necesslty for

approva] or prec'learance by the Department of Justice' lt would have been posslble

to draw redistrlcting'plans for the House utrich did not cross county lines or

divide any county, It aPpears that it would not havb been possible.to gain

approvar by the Department of Justice without drawing the representative districts

as they are now drawn, or drawing some other plan wtrich would have also required

crossing some county lines in uncovered as well as covered counties'

}litliam Kenneth Ha1e being duly sworn, states

Affidavit subscribed by him, and that the contents

his know'ledge, information and belief'

Sworn to and subscribed

tms /4* aav

that he has read the foregoing

th'ereof are true to the best of

ary

My Conrnission

.:



Af n en9 'x C
Ir

Olfice ol the Assittont Attomay General WothinEtoa, D.C. 20530

i d tJoy ,gEr

tlr. Alex Brock
Executive SecretarY - Director
SEate Board of Elections
Suite 801, Raleigh Building
5 hlesE Hargett Street
Raleigh, North Carolina 2760L

Dear Mr. Brock:

This is in reference Eo the 1968 amendment (H.8. No.47L
(1967)), which provides that no counEy shal1 be divided in the
formation of a Senate or RepresentaEive district and which was
recently submitted to the Att.orney General pursuant. to Section 5

of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, 3s amended, !? U.S.C. 1973c.
Your submission was comPleted on October 1, 1981.

i.le have made a careful review of the informaEion that you
have provided, tl'rc events surrounding thc enactment of the change,
the application of the amendment in past legi-slative reaPPortion-
ments,'and comments and information provided by other interested
parties. On the.,basis of that analysis, \,re are_unable to conclude
Ltat this amendment, prohibiting the division of counties in
reapportionmenEs.., doei not have-a discriminatory PurPose or effect

Our analysis shows that the prohibi!ig, against dividing
Ehe 40 covered counEies in the formation of Senate and House
district,s predictably requires, and-has 1ed to the us-e cf ,. large
multi-membbr districts. -Our analyois-'shows further that the use
of such multi-member districts necessarily submerges cognizable
minority population concenLrations into larger white eId,pforates.
In the tontlxt of the racial bloc voting that seems to etkLst, such
a phenomenon operates and would conEinue to_ operate "to minimize
or'cancel out that voting sErength of racial elements of the
votin.q population. " Forlson v. -Dorsey , 379 U. S. 433, 439 (1955) .



ao
TLris determination with respect to the jurisdiction.s

- correred by S;;f;;-;-;i- the-voting Rights Act ihoutd in "\way be regarded as Precluding the State from followilg u ,/policy of preserving county Iines'whenever feasible in ,/
?ormuiating its new rlistrilts. Indeed, this is the policy in
many states, subject only to the Preclearance requirements of
Section 5, where applicable. In the present submission,
howeverr w€ are evaluating a legal requirement that every
county must be included in the plan as an undivided whole.
As noled abover the inescapable effect of such a requirement
is to eubmerge sizeable black communities in }arge multi-
member districts.

Under these circumstances, and guided by the standards
established in cases such as Beer v. United States, 425 U.S'
r30 (1976), vre are unabre to 6Eruaeffi8 amendment
requiring'nondivision of counties in legislative redistricting
aoes not have a raeially discriminatory purPose or effect.
Accordinglyr on behalf of the Attorney General, I must
interpos6 an objection to that amendment insofar as it. affects
the covered counties.

of coufs€r as provided by section 5 of the Voting
Rights Act, 1lou have the right to seek a declaratory judgment
fr6m the Unilea States District Court for the District of
Columbia that this change has neither the PurPose nor wilI
have the effect of denying or abridging the right to vote on
account of race, color or membership in a language minority
group. In addition, the Procedures for the Administration of
Section 5 (section 51.44, 46 Fed. Reg. 878) permit you to
request the Attorney General to reconsider the objection.
However, until the objection is withdrawn or the judgment \
fronr the District of Columbia is obtained, the effect of the \
objection by the Attorney General is to make the 1968 amendment)
IegaIIy unenforceable. /

If you have any questions concerning t'his matter,
please feet free to clft CarI W. Gable (ZOZ-724-7439), Director
of the Section 5 Unit of the Voting Section.

Sincerely,

Assistant AttorneY General
Civil Rights Division