Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Transcription
Public Court Documents
March 6, 1968
101 pages
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Transcription, 1968. e4fe5fbd-c29a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/29d777dc-5aa8-4f44-bc88-2434d8198fa4/rock-v-norfolk-western-railway-company-transcription. Accessed April 29, 2025.
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had bean done in th i s case, and to get the ease moving
we proposed d o v e ta ilin g .
Q What was the p o s itio n o f the ra ilw ays as
f a r as the ro s te r of in te g ra tio n fo r these two s e n io r i ty
d i s t r i c t s is concerned?
A we had no ob jec tion to p u ttin g the ro o te rs
together.
Q Mow, what was the fe e lin g of the ra ilro a d
as represented by your p o s itio n as ru le s superv iso r as
to the d e s i r a b i l i ty of in te g ra tin g the ro o te rs o r one
aethod over another?
A i t would probably work b e tto r fo r us to
have topped and bottoaed the ro s te r s . But d o v e ta ilin g
the ro s te r s oould be worked ou t.
Q Well, which would bo the b e t te r f ro a your !
p o s itio n In labo r re la tio n e end a l l o y s co n d itio n s, asthed
to have been employed ?
A Topping and bottoetiLiqt.
Q Mow, follow ing the issu e nee of th a t le t te r*
what change, i f any, did the ra ilro a d take in i t s p o s itio n
as to i t s w illingness to In te g ra te these r o s te r s t
A we had n estings on th i s l e t t e r .
q I ea only ta lk in g about th e in te g ra tio n
of the ro s te r s now. Mss th e ra ilro a d ever ehanged
p o s itio n as to being w illin g to in te g ra te the ro s te rs?
E. M. Martin - Direst 619
51 ^ 3.
2. H. Martin - Client 620
A No, s i r .
Q Horn, what conversations, i f a n /, vara ha Id
on the sub ject of In teg ra tio n of the ro s te r fo llow ing the
issuance of th is l e t t e r of October 31, 1968 between the
ra ilw ay company and the re p re se n ta tiv e s of the union?
A Or November 13 and 14, 1968, we held
confers boss with v ice -p res id en t P. A. Bardin of the United
T ranspo rta tion Union and general chairman M. T. Lusk.
Q What was the r e s u l t of those conferences?
A As a r e s u l t of those conferences we I
proposed a nenorandun of agreement to top and bottom the
s e n io r i ty ro s te rs between the Barney yard and th e CT yard, j
Q Now, who asked th a t the topping and
bottoming be used ra th e r than the d o v e ta ilin g ?
A The esployss or th e general chairman and
the v ice -p res id en t were of the opinion th a t they could net
reach an agrees*nt between the two lo ca ls to d o v e ta il , but
th a t p o ssib ly an agreement could be reached to top and
bottom. So we proposed the agreesmnt to top and bottom.
I
Q I hand you then Norfolk and Western Exhibit
No. 20, and ask you I f th a t Is the msnorandua s it s ament
th a t re su lted from th a t conference ?
A Tec, s i r .
MR. WORTH HUT ON 1 Is th e re any ob jection
to th a t going in to evidence.__________
E. M. H urt in - D ire c t 621
MR. BELTORi There is the ob jection
Mr. W orthington, wo expressed before. we w ill ee l
ob ject to tho e x h ib it . Tho o n l/ ob jection wo have
on th a t e x h ib it , M*. W orthington, in the
handw ritten notes on i t . That i s the only
objeotlon we have to I t .
MR. WORTH DOT OR s Let as see IT we
au th en tica te th a t then .
BY MR. WORTHimTORt
Q Mr. M artin, th e re la a one handw riting on
the seeoad page of D efendants' E xhibit H uber 20. Whose
handw riting la th a t?
A That is n ine.
Q When was th a t no ta tio n put on there?
A Moveaber I t , 1966,
Q Well then , th i s p u rparts to dea l w ith soon
I
conferences you had w ith Mr. M artin and Lush on what date?
A Moveaber 13th and U th , 1968.
Q So th i s handw riting was dene oente^oreaeew ely
a t the tin e ?
A Yes.
MR. WCRSHZMTQRt We o ffe r th i s in to to
which would be Warfolic and Western Xxhiblt Mo. 20.
MR. BELTCKi The o b iss tlo n we were not
5^ I ds.
!
B. M. Martin - Direct 622
abla to e s ta b l is h w ith re sp ec t to the m u t h k Iim
o r the notes nade on i t th a t i t was dons la the
reg u la r course of business.
* • WORTH DMETOMt z tag s I t then th a t the
ob jection i s withdrawn?
THB COURT i As to th e handw riting on the
second page i t only In d ica te s th a t copies of
th a t agreement were hand-delivered to Nr. Hardin
and Lusic and as the w itness has In d ica ted , he i s
the one th a t node the n o ta tio n of what tran sp ired
and what was to happen, 1 w il l admit i t .
Tour ob jection i s in the record .
(Nenorendua agreement e f fe c tiv e 12t01 A. it. !
December 1, 1968 was narked D efendants' E xhib it
No. 20 mod received In evidence.)
I
THE COUTi Let me look a t the r e s t o f the
1
ex h ib it a moment.
NR. WCKFHXMEONt Yes, s i r .
THE CQUTt All r ig h t , s i r . Oo ahead.
BY Ml. WORZHUMPONt
Q R eferring then , Mr. M artin, to the
n o ta tio n a t the - -
I1
j
1
THE COURT i What Is the number of the
5 % 2
1
S* N. Martin - Direct 6s*3
ex h ib it?
the CLBUCt i n h r 20, lo u r Honor.
BT m . WORTHUWTOHj
<3 On the second pace, the handw riting on
E xhib it 20 of Norfolk end Western E x h ib it, would you explain
•h a t happened w ith referenoe to Nr. Hardin and *>. Lma.
* As th i s note in d ic a te s here , we gave *Himi
copies of th is proposed aeuorandus agreement, they ware
going to go to Norfolk te rad n a l and ta lk to the two lodges,
and then oontact us i f the two lodges agreed .
<3 And did you hear fu r th e r frost those two
gentleasn on th is sub jec t a f te r th a t d a te?
A No, s i r .
I
>4 N ell then , the next oo—arnicatIon you got
fre n the unions was the s u i t th a t was f i le d by 9T*| i s
th a t co rrec t?
A lb s , s i r .
Q And th a t i s th i s p resen t ac tio n ?
A lb s , s i r .
vi Now, what contact , i f any, did you hare,
Mr* M artin, w ith the a i r hose a rb i t r a ry d ispu te?
A i handled i t , or handled the n eg o tia tio n s
on i t .
Q w ell, I th in k the record would show —
1
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it>
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K- M* M artin - d i r o o t
§24
« . xomnuBoro,, plaintiff.' tKhl>tt
No. 30.
HR. WORTHINGTON i
o * • '• « * ~ f t o P l a i n t i f f . ' e x h i b i t Ho. J , ~
" * " r r ln s t o « a * ib l t HO. 1 0 - , . w hich , ^
r o o . .h c w ib , t h a t t h . i . . t ^ . t , t h . „ Iy f c -
th o u o lo n Oh t h l . . « b j . c t , n . t hxh » t b M . w ith d ra w n , mr
• l a a p u t i n a b ay a n o o , i s d * t* a ____* , ,
' xm * ** •* 2 2 , l f § 2 , i * a l a t t e r
Mr. Brown, a o n o r .1 C h a lrM n , t o x r . m u , v1o ._
p r o . i d . n t o f t h . H o rfo lh ^ « a . t a r . R a ilw ay < ^ , » y i i .
thmt o o r r s e t ?
" * • “ B * - * 1 ® b J .o t t o t h . w l t h M . t M t l f y -
i n , t o t h l . . T our H onor, b a o a a a . i t 1 . . l . t t a r from
*ur. H O .U t o H r. Brown, u i i t h a . n o t U t . « U B -
l la h a d h . know , a n y th i n , a b o u t t h . l a t t e r .
BY MR. WORTHINGTON*
0 Do you
A Y sa, s i r .
TN* COCRT! L o t 's f in d
b e fo ro ho l d o n t i f l s s i t .
• ^ r t h l n g a b o u t th o l a t t e r ?
o u t w hat h a
T MR. WORTHINGTON:
What 4 o you te o v d M ttt i t ?
r> !
8 !
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f) |
Hi :
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14
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A • Martin - Direct 6*5
m ' * < ■ * * !* » « , I t has a i r * a d / been
in tro d u ced la «vldenoe, Tour M anor. I d o n 't
** {* ’w au th en ticate the e x h ib it,
™ COJWi All r ig h t .
by m. wovemimrcx:
Q Nov, what o ther dea lings had th e re been,
to you- Knowladga, daring th . parlod th a t you a n .o tU g
in your ea p as lty as ra lo a a a p a rr lso r o ra r tha a i r has*
a rb i t r a ry th a t had not bMn withdrawn or dalayad a n t l l th i s
d e te f
A Would you l e t a* here th a t question a g s is f
Q I w ill t r y to shorten th i s th la * up. fh e ie
ihed been previous dealings over th e s i r hose a r b i t r a ry fo r
tha Barney yard peoplej had th e re not?
A Tea, s i r .
Q Mow, had any of t
** «aw * s u e after* sne m i r e e d mm assed to sowi id er
by not e i th e r being withdrawn or delayed up u n t i l August
1966?
A The previous out had been withdrawn.
Q So was th i s the f i r s t e f fe c tiv e request
re la te d to the ra ilro a d or not?
A Yea, a i r .
MR, BKIgQBi -__Me ah th*
s t s *
ft I
I. If. Hart In - Direct 626
I t has not b n n shown th a t th s w ltnsss has a n /
Id e n tity or dealing* w ith th i s l e t t e r a t a l l .
**** not ob jec ting to th s a u th e n tic ity o f i t
because I t i s a dooussnt ha has before noVa
*** COURTi i c a n 't l i s te n to both of
a t one t in s . Horn, what connection did you have
w ith whatever th is e x h ib it l a , n r. m a tin ?
THE wetksss t This l e t t e r was passed on
to as by th s v ice -p re s id en t fo r handling.
W» COOTTi And you handled i t on behalf
of th s UorfoUc and w estern.
T O WIT w a s t Tea* a i r .
TVS COURT t And th e fa c ta contained la
l e t t e r , whatever they a re , they are known to you
firsthandT
TO wsnasi Tea, a i r .
T O COURT t Under the
• d a i t I t . i l a p a r tic ip a tio n
h is d iscu ssin g the e x h ib it .
* • WORMHR*r<*i A ll righ t* s i r .
n r hr. wcRHiiKxro*!
Q h r. K artin , a f te r rece iv in g th i s l e t t e r
dated August 22nd, 1966 which la P l a i n t i f f s ' E xh ib it 30-6,
idiat did you do cn behalf of th s ra ilw ay cm grn j as to
S <3C> (X.
to
handling i t ?
A i handled th is w ith our v lee -p res id en t and
* i 8*n*r *1 *an*»*r eharge of the A tlan tio Region of which
1 I Norfolk term inal la a p a r t .
I
a . M. Martin - Direct
* And whet did you do as to reaching a
h dec ision aa to whether th i s request should be grunted or
• j re fitted?
8 A
i
The v ice -p res id en t and general — ^ g r r
9 j reported th a t the Barney Yardmen were not - -
10 4 Did you conduct an in v e s tig a tio n or net?
11 A Through correspondence.
12 Q And w ith what person did you correspond on
13 th is su b jec t?
i
ij
14 A With the v io e-p resid en t and general
15
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manager of th is region.
10 i
| 4 Is he the person or not who i s acquainted
17 1|
j
s l th the conditions th a t you wars try in g to fin d out about?
•
18 j
1
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A Tea, s i r .
19 Q Is th is w ith in h is Ju r isd ic tio n ?
20 | A Tbs, s i r .
21 i Q Raw, as a r e s u l t of th a t in v e s tig a tio n .
22
| what was developed as to whether the Barney yard people
| o r w irt not doing th t * l r hoi# work f ro a t in
i
- 21 .
j inform ation you had?
-----
25 A
I
The vice -p resid en t end general manager
5 6 7 *
628
reported th a t they were not performlx* the d u tie s spe lled
2 out in th e a i r hose ru le .
Q Mas th e d ee is ien then th a t was nede i s your
4 i o ff lo e adopted by the ra ilro a d noapany based on th a t
in fo rma t ion?I I
« j A Yea, air.
!
Q * » t iaportanee use a t te s te d to the f a s t , i f
8 | any, th a t the people th a t were asking fo r th e a i r hese
o a r b i t r a ry were black?
10 A This had nothing to do with i t . :I
11 MR. UOKTHDUraMi A ll r ig h t . Answer »
>2 Mr. Moody.
I. M. Martin - Direct
13
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BY MR. MOODYi
Q Nr. M artin, going back to sene of th e
n eg o tia tio n s th a t hare bean re la te d here today on
a tte a p tln g to work th i s problem o u t, was th i s
o on temporary w ith the approximate t in e sene previous
d iscu ssio n had been had regard ing the r l p d t of the
V irg in ian men who had merged w ith the Norfolk and V aster*
R ailroad a t th is t in e ?
A This was sonatina a f te r th a t .
3 L ater on?
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® Ittpttn - Croat
629
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A Y*b .
q BM th *” 6Mn u to * t t
*>lng to t « c p i . . . rogorellng t h . r t « h t . of t h . » „
fro a *** o id V irg in ia n R a ilroad on theon tne Mor folic and Western
! M n l0 r ity *** th i s been d i.e u .se d ?
I
' 4 * * MXth - “ ~ » b « n d l.« u .M d , OO,
a ir .
* Well, what I th ink these l e t t e r s , or s t
1*“ t 0ne °f th * ~ »— to lnd loot# th .r o h r t
>*«, .< » . d U o u ..lo n . to u t . o * in to p o t io n of th . r o . W .
I t * t . t . . , « d i , r o f . r r l o . to t h . l . t t w of <*tobw , «
t h . n r .n d u . Of Ootobor 2. 1967 to .h lo h i t . f f . th a t .
Ohd I U road i n , dow, h r . m t h . b o t to . of t h . f l r . t
paragraph.
"W* u I f « *0 . 1 . . . . roquo.t ^
any or a l l . . n t o r l t y r o s to r . on XorfoUc t . r n ln a l
"* i n t*««t<Ki■ h r. Lu m a t a t r t th a t I t . . Ho. 1
001 • »<iw>»t th a t «ny r o U n b . l n t . g r . t ^
a t th is t i n s . "
W »t brought on th U pw tleu lM . d lM u aa lm i
do y « r t c l i , .b y . . . « pu t to th . « .„ „ .r ta * * * » :
“ * pu t. II- you m o ., that i f ln t . g r . t iM o f r o a te r . I
t * " * pU a* ’ ln « “ * «“ • - »h»t M n th .y ra fM T io , to . j
Whst r o s te r s ; do you know?
A 1 w u b a r r i n g to the th ree ro s te r s th a t
5 W
I
3. N. Martin - Cross 630
” b a r . «hl«h a r . o o v .rw U, th a t paragraph, tha Baraay M
ro a ta r , tha CT ro a ta r and th a former V irgin U n ro a ta r . x
waa - k i n g h i . i f t h l . - a . . Mqu. . t to x m , , ^ ^ „
a l l of thorn*.
Q And' *• I understand i t , th« p o s itio n both
of Mb*. Rock who was lo ca l ohairaan of 974 a t th a t t i a a , and
Ih*. Fsanort who was s e c re ta ry - tre a su re r of 974, and
Lush who represented the OTTJ, th a t they wore not —*n-g a
request a t th a t t in s fo r the n srg e r of the B am s, yard
ro s te r w ith the CT Yard ro s te r . But i f any asrg e rs took
p laee , which, of course, could only be probably the
V irg in ian ro s te r w ith the o ther r o s te r s , th a t i f th a t
took p laee the Barney yard wanted to be included f
4 That i s r ig h t .
* how, was th i s conference which was held a t
th a t t i n s , the usual and euatounry persona th a t took p a rt
in such conferences, th a t i s the lo ca l ohairaan f a r 974
rep resen tin g th a t r o s te r , and th s lo c a l, and the s e c re ta ry
t re a s u re r fo r 974, and Mr. Luck rep resen ting 9TU, and
yo u rse lf rep resen ting the ra il ro a d , would th i s be the
group th a t would d iscu ss these th in g s f
4 Vo, s i r . This is not th s nortstl group.
Vonsally only th s general ohairaan and a y se lf a a e t. On
c e r ta in th ings they do bring in s lo ca l ohairaan.
^ R ight. Do you reaeaber or know why
5 °!0 k .
W . Roes or * •. Pesnort happened to bo a ttend ing th ese
■eatings when norm ally they would not bo a tten d li«T
I. K. Martin - Cross
H
s
9
10
11
12
13 I
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A Woll, 1 th in s thoy woro probably tb sro ss
advisors to tho general ohairwan.
MR* MUTONt O bjection. So ob ject
ho Snows ss s f a c t .
WB COURTi I f you Snow, say so . I f you
i
d o n 't ,s a y so .
I
TKK WTTMSaSi I d o n 't Snow.
BY MR. MOODYi !
Q Mow, was th ere a request by the non fro*
tho fo m s r V irg in ian to Marge th e i r r o s te r w ith the M h V
roe t o r t
If) A Mo, s i r .
lb ft There never was a request T
17 A No, s i r .
IS Do you snow i f th a t 1 $ 0 1 € f a r
19 d iscussion with the N S W R ailroad and i t s p resen t
20 enployss or employes a t th a t tin e ?
21 A Mo, s i r , not a t th a t t i e s .
22 ft then did I t cone up a t soae o ther t ie s ?
23 A At the t in e of aerger between the MerfolS
24 and Western and V irg in ian . I t was discussed then in
2f> 1959.
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E. M. M artin - C ross 632
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I ' What was the dec ision as to S s t h t r th a t
j
r o s t s r should be Merged w ith your X & W employes s t th a t
tin e ? I
j
A The decision was they would not be
Q In o ther words, the old V irg in ian o r f
V irg in ian employes were not peraL tted to in s e r t th e i r
s e n io r i ty r ig h ts in to the ro o te r of your employes a t th a t
t in e ?
A
Q
have been
l i s t ?
No, s i r .
And I f they oaae on th a t ro s te r they would
to cone s t th s b o tto a of your s e n io r i ty
A That is r ig h t .
Q And they ehoee, I b e liev e , to w la ta in
th e i r own s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t r s th s r than to do th a t j did
they not?
A Tea, s i r .
^ Now, going again to one of the aeeoraadi •<
th i s i s dated Oetober 19 , 1967 — in which * r . Lusk s ta te d
th a t th i s was an in te rn a l n a t te r o f the BRT. i s th a t a
f a i r l y e o rree t statem ent w ith re ference to the winner of
n eg o tia tin g n a tte rs o f th is kind between th s ra ilro a d and
th s nan, th a t th s BR?, or s t th s p resen t t in s th e OTU
would take an o f f i c ia l p o s itio n and r e la te th e i r p o s itio n
to you?
6 V K
A That i s r ig h t .
Q And you could not ac t u n t i l tho p a r t ie s
aamm to a Mutual agraeasn t on i t ?
A That la r ig h t .
Q And i t would ho an in te rn a l n a t te r in th i s
in s tan ce , or s i tu a t io n of th is hind in which the WKt or the
p resen t UTU would taae up anong th e i r aaaborahlp, end a f te r
th e / noted upon i t th e / would m m to /ou and ifr. Lusk, or
the general ohairaan would he the p a r ty to cone to you with
the p o s itio n they were tak ii^T
A Yes, s i r .
Q Do you know whet p o s itio n Local 974 took
regard ing the proposal of aargar — and l o t 's taka th e se ,
. - Ii f 1 aay, one a t a t i n s .
F i r s t a t a l l , do you know i f they took tho
p o s itio n e i th e r fo r or ag a in st topping and bottoadLng?
A No, s i r .
4 You do not know?
A Mo, a i r .
Q At any t in s in your eonfsrensss w ith
p a r t ie s concerning t h i s , did any rep resen ta tiv e of 974
In d ica te to you th a t a p a r t ic u la r type of aa rg ar would he
s a t is fa c to ry to than or u n sa tis fa c to ry to than?
A Mo, a i r . 1 d o n 't know.
You do not r e c a l l any p o s itio n they took
I. N. Martin - Cross (33
Q
X. N. Martin - Croat 63
on a n / proposals th a t v srs d iscus sod ?
A The roquost a t th i s t in s was th a t i f any
ro s to rs aro in teg ra ted they wanted tho Barnoy Yard son to
bo made a p a rt o f i t . But tho quoation d id n 't a r iso as t<
whether i t would bo topped and Cottoned or dovotailod .
Q And you do not r s o a l l a t any t in s a
re p re sen ta tiv e of 974 in d ie a tin g th a t ho would not bo in
a greenest w ith topping and b o tto a l^ T
A Mo, a i r . I d o n 't r e c a l l i t .
Q nor would you r e c a l l anything, I believe
you s ta te d , as fa r as ldiether they would bo agreeable to
any o ther type of Merger of the ro e to rs?
A Me, a i r .
Q Mow, 1 understood you to t e s t i f y in
eonneetlon with the conference of October 19 , 1967 th a t yea
heard no fu r th e r fro * Mr. Luaa a f te r he ind ica ted th a t i t
was an in te rn a l n a t te r . Was th e re any fu r th e r re quest by
l>eeal 974 to tho I l H R ailroad , to your Knowledge, a f ta r
tha n es tin g of Ostobcr 19, 1967 netting a request fo r any
type of nergnr?
A Mo, s i r .
Q Arc you aware o f, or do you havo knowledge
of any fu r th e r conversation , o f f i c ia l or o th e rs iso th a t
*** — v e i l , l e t ' s atlow with baing an o f f i c ia l . Any
fu r th e r oonaldoratlon of th i s n a t te r by Local 550,
I
K« M. Martin - Cross 635
vhatfcar they took i t up o f f i c ia l ly and aetod on i t or not?
A Mo, a i r , I do not know.
Q You do not know?
A Mo.
Q And I boliovo you a ta tod th a t tho f i r s t
i to n in th i s lo t to r of August 30, 1967, tho f i r s t n s t to r
In thoro was a request fo r topping and bottoming. You had
a lo t to r , I hollows?
A Yds, s i r .
I i
Q Dotod August 30, 1967?
| A Yoa, s i r .
i
Q And you had no othor roquost o thor than tho
roquoat fo r topping and hottoning?
A Mo, a i r .
j
Q Going hook fo r a moment, l o t 's aoo i f I oan
c la r i f y tho p o s itio n of tho M * W on th is n a tto r of
d o v o ta illn g . I believe you to a t lf lo d th a t t o p p l e and
I
hot toning would bo tho h o tte r so lu tio n to th is problem,
I
in your Judgment?
A The, e i r .
Q And lo th a t tho o f f i c ia l p o s itio n of tho |
M h W th a t tho topping and bottoming would bo tho
p re ferab le so lu tio n to the problem?
A Yee, a i r .
What la th a t baaed upon?
S c15 ^ |
A
I. M. Martin . cross 636
wall,
bott<
A Vs hars had saporlsae* with topping
ro s ts r s a t o th s r p o in ts , and i t has waited
I t » s i l4 hs a nors ords r l y prooosa to ta p and
than to dors t a l l . m d © Totalling yon was Id
th a t would bs going in ts a fo ra lgn t a r r l t s j y
jrsa would hars nndsr a topping and
<4 And to o a r r j th a t f u r th s r , la your
la ra ilro a d in g , and p a r t ic u la r ly in t t e
, hars you had o ssas isa to aasv of o t te r
la which th i s has boos t r i a d , th i s d o ro ta i l ia g
i a t sgr s t lon of s t r a i t s grotgis o f aaa in to ana
and p u ttin g thou t s p a t t e r on srsw s. to you
of o t te r s who hars t r ia d t h a t t
o f ,suddoa
A
Q
any o t te r ra ilro a d s f
ho, s i r . ha
ra il ro a d , hut
of i t ,
o f
A
Q
>lsto
ia aa o rd s r ly
A
Ho, a i r .
And la
aa a f t t e
o p la isa would i t
a f f a r ta to o arry <
h i , a i r .
MR, MOOTS
tub count
That la a l l .
A ll r ig h t , a i r .
5 % 3
637
I ST m . BALLBit
I
X. N. Martin - Cross
2 Q Sr. M artin, you s ta te d th a t In |M r
| cap ac ity aa ru le s superv iso r f r a had knowledge o f fcMs
t l a t t e r eonoarnlng the a i r hoaa r a la and th e request fo r
l
■) a p p lia a tio a which waa datad , I b e liev e , 1967. X d o n 't
i
n hoaa a eop j of th la bafovo no. This U Xrahar 30-6.
1• Partapa «a a u g a l a copy of i t . Sara i t ia . I t la
iS datad Augost 22, 1966?
j
A lb s .
10 <4 Ton a ta ta d th a t you had a knowledge o f th a t ■
11 l a t t e r ?
12 A m o, a i r .
w 13 Q Although I t was not addressed to pout
11 A The, a i r .
15 Q Bra ; did f r a hare a knowledge o f th a t
1« l a t t e r t
17
I
A than i t waa resolved bp the v ice -p res id en t
• and general nanager, the v ice -p res id en t o f peroeanel, he
19 noted i t to an f a r ac tio n and handling.
■21» Q X aoe. waa th ia contained aa p a r t o f the
21 reco rds, the f i l e s th a t the v ice -p res id en t naps i s s n l s
th e a i r hose n a t te r r
23 A Tea, a i r .
21 Q Are pra aware aa to whether th e re had been
23 any precious requests to hare th e a i r hose ru le applied
X. M. nor t i n - c ro ss w
| to x a m y U N nan?t • ‘
A a ir , tharo h m boon.
j
Q Do you know approx lo o t o ly whoa thooo
i r n a s s t s bogaat
A Mo, a ir . I d o n 't kaoi whoa Unjr togaa.
Q Z ahow you ft la t t a r whloh la alpaad byI
H. e . W yatt, y ioo-p raald an t and ( m i n i n i a p r . datad
January 9, 1» .
Ml. WQWHUMTOWI w« aak th at tha
w ltaaaa taro tha a d v u U ft o f tha an ttra o x h lt lt .
Tharo la a uholo hatah o f aorraapondanaa on th la
th la x , and X d o n 't th in k tha w ltaaaa a s * * to ho
ftfthad to r onanftar book 12 and 13 yoava ^ tha
o z h lt lt la a lraad y la arldanoo. i t la h h l k l t
*o- 30, r ia ln t l f f a * In h ib it Wo. J<V
«SS OLXWXJ Wo haa I t .
*T Ml. WALLXRt
Q X aahad you to look a t tha aaoond po«a o f
th at o x h lb it, whloh la tha la t t a r x an r o fa r r li« to non.
In tha ta x t o f th a t la t t a r , doaa th la ro to r to a r r ia ia t
whloh had boon aado to hato A rtlo la t l , Soot Ion A o f tha
YhrdaaaAa agroonaat ap ply to hftrnoy Yard fo a o a n f
A Toa, a ir .
Q __ X ana. So th a t a t la a a t aa long a$o oa
5 91 x
8. N. Martin - Cross 639
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1959 th sro hod boon such « roquont ssdo?
A Yds, s i r .
q Art f N t w r t whothsr th s r s s o r t any
rs q m s ts md* bstwssn 1939 sad 1966, th s do ts o f th s
l s t t s r la E xhibit 30-6 ?
A Mo, s i r .
Q Xf you w ill t o n to — x th ia k i t i s
E xh ib it 30-5 in th a t t u t pasha**. Thar* i s s l s t t s r
datsd August 30, 1965 sddrssasd to Mr. H. C. Wystt,
v loo-pros Id s a t of tho Morfolk sad S ts to rn sa ils tay . i s
th a t a l s t t s r td&loh you a rs f a a t l l a r v l th f
A Mm , s i r .
q Xs th a t a l s t t s r nhloh i s in th s f l l s s
aa ln ta in sd by th s ra ilw ay w ith ro f ird t s th s a i r
s sn trso o rsy f
A X would say ysa.
q Aad i s i t a l s t t s r whlah
rsq u as t by Mr. 0. 1. Broun th a t th s a i r
•p p llsd to Barasy ih rd orswsf
A lb s , s i r .
q Mow, you s ta ts d th a t th a rs was
in r s s t ig a t io a p srfo rm d by th s ra ilw ay
it s th ir th s Barm y Bard m o wars po rf a rs in g
l i s ts d uadsr th s a i r boss ru lo . Aad you
th a t th sy worn no t. Would ysa
s ^ c
ts
statsd alas that
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X. M. Martin - cross 6X0
i p s o l f l s , wts tb s r e s u l t of th a t ln v o s t lf i t lo n
they were not requ ired to perfons these d u tie s , e r they
were ne t e e tu s l ly per f or ming then?
A The re p o rt was th a t th ey were n e t reqirtrtfl
to p e rfs ru these d u tie s .
Q Required by d u e , o r by what?
A A super v iso r .
Q I see . Se you d issevered th a t they wore
not being req u ired , l a f a s t , by the f o r e m o r j t r l — I s n
A Tbs, s i r .
3 Did you p a r t ic ip a te
in v es tig a tio n ?
A Me, s i r .
Q Rid yew in spec t th e
p era e a s i ly l a th i s
• • re e y u s d a t th e t in s
A he, s i r .
Q Se you are re ly in g ee the la f e r a a t ie s you
received by sheerer inv estig a ted th is ?
A That i s r ig h t .
<4 Mow I an a l i t t l e una lear about ***■
s e t t e r of th e sep ere te s e n io r i ty ro s te r —1Mislead by e r
to r f o r s s r V irg in ian sen . Are you fa a l 11 s r w ith t l t t t
e rrangsssn t?
A lb s , s i r .
to o 2L
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650
thm waaor andua rofw rdlng tha oonf T t m t , o r t t e — inrandw
■artcod now as D efendants' E xhib it Vo. 18 —
Ml. VOKBUMBTCMi I th in k i t wowld Vo
h e lp fu l booawso th e d a tes oro f l n a — X th in k yon
haws so t tha w ill t o wlwod 19 . X th in k th a t in
E xh ib it 1$.
NR. VALUERi Rf apele«loo th m . falW
P «fi 4 E xh ib it 19.
nr NR. VALLES t
Q Vow, th in — w rfkhw aoaaa rwa i k rfw m —
rn io h yow s ta te d row worn in s ttondaaoe . XV fo o t, fow
wrote t h i s M W t t U f
A lb s , s i r .
Q Vow, on M | » 4 If row will allow no to rood
I t , I t a to too i
"Hr. ROMM sta to d wo had v m t i s d a
ooNVlalvt f ro a tha BOO and i t won wood ad wary
i l a l i i v to tha in s ta n t raqw oot.”
eowld yaw t o l l wa who Nr. Poors own lo t
A n r . M rsoas a t th a t t i n s was aaaavar-
personnel.
q For tha Norfolk and Woo to m ?
A fo r tha Norfolk and Woo to m .
q And oowld you Jwat, ao thaaw la no dowbt,
i
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ik o \
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X. M. Martin - Croon *51
oould you c la r i f y what u ro fo rrod to by the in s ta n t
raqpaat a t th a t po in t?
A Ths inataxrt ro<xuoat roforrod to
ro fo r r la g to tho lo t t o r rocoirod fro a Qonorsi
Lank datod August 30th, 1967 in sh ish thoro warn fly #
ito an 1 la tod .
tfc» follow ing f i r s ««r s ix lin o s o f th a t
you w roto.
A lag ln a ln g wharof
Q log inning w ith "ho s a id ."
A "So said ha thoogdit tho two
should ho tanaa oaro of a t tho aaai
tho ito a a lia to d l a tho XX0C
97k, Brotharhood of Xoilrood
not holng allouod to
lie tow rtnal in yard
«h ito yap— a . 1 H , wo i f tho
Q That la t u th a t Z th in k ia
Wtm, would you not aay th a t th a t o o a a ti ta to
tho oospaay to sonaidor nargar o f thoao m o to rs?
A __ Mo, s i r .
fo r
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<4 Now, you havo also tost If 1*4 that tho
osapany was oonooraad to try to roaolvo this asttor. Xa
foot, thoso two aattors togrthar, to — t tha oaas arrU*.
And eoaaoquootly a Xottor waa wrlttan owar Mr. — aatta’s
si— atwro proposing doratalliag. you s to tod that ths
ooapany, I toollm, fait that topple and y~ntatiy would
to tot tor, but that domtailU« oould too worteod out; in
that oorroot?
A Too, air.
<4 Tou also statod that your fooling that
tapping and toottoning waa a aaparior asthad for iatogrotii*
tha Barasy yard and aain yard rostoro, waa a aattor of
o ttlm iA l osapany pollan la that oorroott
A Yds, air.
Q Waa it a aattor of offioial osapany policy
that domtaiilag would too wrtnd outr
A — a, air.
Q Bid you conduct any - worn you invulwad
X. N. Martin - Cross g —
A
Q
A
Q
you, air.
And diaouaalon atoout tha aargart
Atoout tho aargart
Z aa so rry . Atoout tha paaaihla aathadd
( o O i f r .
* Of the s e n io r i ty l i s t .
* » • , s i r .
* ufcat «M
of t l a s
w m . ballbri
^ Could you give US
in those d U ouss teas i*
subJest w it te r ?
A I do not h a r t a M i n i mi m M t in
eeaferenee The eonforonao m i appa ren t ly Bald on
°s**ber 31, 1968.
<* M s th i s tiw one
Involved in e s ta b lish in g -
o f f i c ia l
A
Q
>, s i r . z
*** ms d i r e s t your a t te n tio n to th i s
iM tte r. This i s a espy of E xh ib it 51-9 hm%
" f , m l to " v *»— •• I f I *a . o m . t , ( m M»
f l r r t p w a g n p h o f tM t K t t o , n f » to , x
* " « ott® - M t a H N i th r t « . hold ?
* *»», s i r .
^ ® days, snnoem lm Barney U sd msb,
M rn in a l, and tliose held October a and
1». 1967, am M iw rjr 4 « 22nd. and N t a w , 1 a * 16,
1968?
Tea, a i r .
----------L_
<coy
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Q That la s ix conferences T
A not w ith Mr. Manatta.
Q Mot with * . Manat t a r These a n
oonfarsaasa between n r . Leak?
A Yaa.
^ And eoapajtjr o f f ic ia ls ?
a n ig h t.
Q tOOth company a f f l a la la wa r t involved l a
th a t# conferences?
A z would h a r t t a cheek tha f l i t to se a , hat
Z waa pvaaaat a t aoat of than.
Q Do you know what tha su b jec t a a t t a r of
thaaa conferences waa?
A V h rlM th ings d ea ling w ith M m ? Ykrd
Q Did I t a lao daal w ith tha d o v e ta i l ! ^ o f
s e n io r i ty ro s te r s , includ ing th a Maraey Yard r o s te r , and
did I t d aa l w ith tugging and battoM ii« of thaaa r oat ora?
A I t d a a lt w ith tha flwa req u ests 11atad In
tha general e h a im a a 's l a t t a r «f Augoat 30, 19O7 .
Q Maw, d id thaaa flwa raqwaata In tlw dt
cons id o ra tio n fo r req u ests fo r aa rg a r o f tha s e n io r i ty
ro s te r s . The fiv e roquests which ware tha su b jec t a a t ta r
of thaaa aanfaranaaa?
___ A______ I t d id not request —
I. N. Martin - Ct m > g
Us ̂
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655
Q Z th in k th i s Is r e th s r s la p l* .
Nl. VGKCHZBGVOMi Lst th s w itness u m v
the question , p lo ts* .
A (Continuing) I t did not request s nergar
of th s s e n io r i ty r o s te r s . i t was s request th s t i f these
was any uergar of ro s te r s In the fu tu re , th a t th s Barney
Yard nan would be considered.
BY m . BALLBSt
Q AH r ig h t . Bee, in the course o f these
oenferenees, do you r e c a l l *»*ther aenbers o r re p re se n ts tiv e s
of Local 974 were p resen t a t these confe rences ?
A Yes, s i r .
3 were they pr e sen t a t a l l o f then?
A Z d o n 't know.
<4 Do you r e c a l l whether th s d iscu ssio n s a t
these conferences inclurtsd th s d if f e re n t and very apse I f le
sense , th s d if f e re n t scans of bring ing about c i th e r
d o v e ta ilin g or topping and bottcadng I f th s fu tu re Merger
of th s s e n io r i ty ro s te r s should be requested?
A Yes, s i r .
Q I t d id?
A Yes, s i r .
q So th a t you d iscussed d if fe re n t ways th a t
topping and Cottoning n igh t be c a rr ie d ou t, and th s
1 0(o ^
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* . K. Mftln — OfOM 65*
d if fe re n t n jr» Might be ca rried out?
A M d id n 't d lin t M th e d l f f t N B l a»thods.
At the t i a e we a ln p iy diaouaaed the request th a t i f a
aargar took p laaa a t eone subsequent data th a t th a Bamay
Ihxd aan ba included la th a t ae rgu r, reg a rd less a f aha t i t
vaa.
Q Did you than propoaa d o v e ta ilin g a f tha
s e n io r i ty ra a ta r s w ithout p r io r d laauaaloa of the uethod
of carry ing out th a d o v e ta ilin g ?
A vaa, a i r .
Q Did you than expect th a t request fo r
d o v e ta ilin g would ba agreed to by tha u o ia w f
A Mb d id n 't , no.
Q But had they agreed to i t , you ware
A go. we would have had to have aaaa
prevlaieae and have agreeneat aa to tha aaanar In whiah it
would bo dovetailed and how it would work after
dovetailing.
<4 I aaa. But you did aa a natter af
offielal oanpany policy write a latter statics
"We propose dovetailing of tha seniority
roe ten, the Barney lard nan and Merfel* tarninal
yardnan and would approoiato It if you would
(oOl 3^
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657
*pran«* to with in at tlM urllaat nnirranHuee
to affait this as aooa n potalbla.*
A Hi, sir.
Q Aad you say y w hadn't aoasidered the
aethod f or ainryifli out this ?
A ( H n a p o o M . )
Q H what m i l 414 you taatlf y that
dovetailing eeold to warned out?
A Hall, it elaply aan ba warhad out.
Q la that present company pellay, i w H a l U h l
aaa ba warned out?
A H a , air.
Q m m , aeeardlag to your aalleetlve
bargaining agm a aant with tha Molted Trumportatlaa ghlan,
can you aagotiata an aattara af thin nature with laaal
uaiaaa independently of tha general eheirnaaf
A Me, air.
Q Maw, Nr. Naady aefeod you about the
eoweagueaeea you felt eight tnane if there wee iamtant
dovetailing of renters, and x believe you stated that tt*t
would be bad far the railway and bat for tha spar at lane,
and bad far tha wear
A m .
Are there other ways that the eewiarlty
M t t B — i* > . a > M 8 i a j f c a t r f<r r rt e m u i M t
I tO H ^
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B. M* Martin - 0rot* <56
A The/ m o be topped and b o tt
<4 Am I te r* o th er waps th a t tha
be doveta iled w ithout In s ta n tly plowing a
la m a p TUrd nan in tha CT Yard, and a largo amahar o f Of
Xhrd nan in tha la ra e y Yard?
A I don’t anew imat th a aathad would bo* so*
a i r .
Q Mow, th a t i s th a only wap pm to n aao
d o v e ta ilin g working?
A Tha/ ara tha only two nathoda th a t Z know
Q Z» th a t idiat pan wars proponing l a th in
l a t t e r from Mr. Nanette?
A m o , a i r .
Q Da you envisage th a t t h i s noons Iwnflag
man amt a f th a l r proaoat Jofco?
A Mss, a i r .
Q I t would?
A m o, a i r .
Q Can pow envisage d o v e ta ilin g whioh would
involve aara gradual in togratlom of tha roe t o rs and th a
John?
A h r topping and bottoming,
q I s th e re any way w ith in tha eon t e s t o f
a d o v e ta ilin g farm of merger a mare gradua l appremah
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659
|
COU14 bC UMd?
* ^ agree to dovetail you would have to
hove an agreement as to the way it would be tplaintod.
Q And could that include a aero gradual
approach to the replaeeaent of non frost their current jobs?
A lbs, air.
Q Could that bo worked cut, that of an
inpleaenting agreement?
A tts, air. it would have to be an agreement
between the railroad and the g M i m l ehalrwtn.
Q X see. Bat it could bo worked out?
A lbs, sir.
MR. BALLSXs Mo further questions.
THE earnest a h right, air. Anything
further.
Ml. worm TIMM OMi lust a couple of natters
on redireet, Tour Manor.
B. M. M artin - cross
MXDSUQf MUXDttf X0K
BY MR. WGRKMXmrOMs
Q Mr. Martin, you wore asked about sous
portions of sane of the writings in this esss by ft>.
Bailor, and I think it night be helpful to have the reoord
straight, that the other relevant portions of those sans
(c lO ^
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K. N. Martin - Rtdlrttt 660
d o e o tn U be re fe rre d to a t the m m t lM . could you take
E xh ib it 30 — i th ia u you a t i l l have th a t - - on th e second
H P .
A E xhibit 30?
3 Vea. I th in k you were asked i f th a t did
not r e f e r to seas req u ests about the a i r hose a r b i t r a ry
In 1958. Za th a t r ig h t . That i s in the f i r s t
paragraph?
A Tea, a i r .
3 Would you read th e seeoad paragraph o f M a t
l e t t e r in to th e reeord then.
A "During oonfereaoo today i t was M utually
understood th a t your request fo r a p p lio a tio a of
A rtic le 41, sec tio n 4 , of the yardMM'e g n in e a l
to heresy yard foreasn and Barney yard ea r r ld e re
waa withdrawn w ithout p re ju d ic e ."
Q So th a t a i l th e req u ests eg to th a t t in e
were withdrawn by the next paragraph of th a t l e t t a r i i s
th a t r ig h t?
A fe e , a i r .
<4 Bow, l e t ' s r e f e r then to th e fo u rth page
of Xxhibit 30 o f the p l a i n t i f f . This was rsa d , X th in k ,
by you aa a l e t t e r of August 30, 1965 requesting
considera tion of the a i r hose a rb itra ry ! la th a t r ig h t?
_________ A___ yea, a i r .
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Q What does the very next U U « i t« H about
th a t req u est, in the second paragraph?
A * It was a lso understood th a t due to the
ao rc to riio i Involving a r b i t r a ry aliowanooo as
contained In the Kovedber 20, 1964
request fo r the a i r hose allowance fo r
■on would be withdrawn w ithout p re jud ice u n t i l and
a f t e r Ju ly , 1966, which i s the ex p ira tio n d a te of
the m oretorlum ."
Q So th a t request a la s was withd rawal was i t
not?
A lb s , s i r .
Q Now then , we w il l pees to E xh ib it No. 19 of
the Norfolk end Western, in which you wore u l s d t e read e
p o rtio n of th a t e x h ib it on F a ^ 4 . I th in k yea ware
asked to read j wore you n o t, the f i r s t l t e a which re la te d
to the Barney Ibrd employes not being allowed te
or work over the e n tire Norfolk te rm in a l. Bid yea
th a t in to the record ?
A lb s , s i r .
4 And would you read the f i r s t
th e sane page, nunber one, quoting Jh*. Farsona.
A Nl . T his complaint does not e x is t as
f a r as the c a r r ie r i s concerned be<
not received a request th a t any of the s e n io r i ty
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S. N. ittrtin - Ridlnot 662
v o m f n bo In to g ra to d .”
Than you wort n i o d , I th in * , by * . a t l l t r ,
whothor you oona ldar od tho f l r a t qpoto th a t you r t n
o f th a t pago a t a ro quoot fo r In ta g ra tlo a of tho r*
ana tho w try pago i t a o l f ahowa th a t you d id n o t | l a
o o rro o tt
A i t s , a i r .
MR. WCHUMOrOHi A ll right, air.
H B Conor i Anything fwrtter.
RBCROSS KXAJCUUffXCn
BY MR. MOODYi
4 Nr. M artin, Juat a ooupJLo of g n a te lo m .
Tho formr Virginian m n that tana to tho ■ h tf ted teaa
••Trying out tho aano dutloo and funetlona aa tteao m b
that woro working out on thia ratio propoalttoa, ted teaa
doing tho a a m thing aa your nan an tte 0V Xtedj had ttey
not, hruhoaon, ooaduatova, team a ratio wan wanted ate
to two on tho foruor traaoaoa on tte Virginian and tteao
on tte M h v, format oooduatora on tte Ylrglaiaa and tteao
on tte M h VT
A T te r a t io waa warted out by t t e au teu r o f
orowa ax is tin g a t tho t la o of nargar on t t e fo o te r
V irg in ian and Rorfol* and Maatorn ._____________
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Q T h m was bo c ro ssing of s lag s o r g ra f t
1In s s t
A Mo, a i r . A r a t i o of crows.
m . VQRRUMffGNt Thank you.
*** COOTTs A ll r ig h t , s i r . s to p down.
(V itossa excused .)
TBB COURT 1 Cent logon, I t la ten ralrmlTs
a f t e r one. wo w ill bo la roooas u n t i l two
o 'c lo ck .
(Rcoooa.)
AfCTMMOCM
H B COURT 1 A ll r ig h t , s i r . C a ll year
next wit nes s .
I. H. Martin - Kttroti 553
m m sL m m L a m s B b « • v itn o o .
by and on behalf of the Norfolk and Westora, bolj* first
duly sworn, tostlflod as follows 1
DIRIOT KXAMDMVXQR
UIH*.
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M. 8. PMUMTt - Dlraot 6 *
t . V m t
S ta t« your naaa, p 1m m , s i r .
Matthav Bdward Paaaort.
vhere do l i f t , Mr. pM Utoif
Fortaaouth , V irg in ia .
By «hoa i n you aaployad?
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Q Haw long ta tn you boan n p l iyM |y u h
N orfolk and tfaatarn R ailroad?
A Tvanty-flwa yaarw.
Q Bow, la 1967 what p N l t lM , I f m y , d id
you Hava w ith Loaal Lodga 974?
A S aera ta ry - tre a su re r and s a t N t i r y a f
tha grievance o o aa ltto e .
Q What oaaaalaa, i f any, d id y w hat* to
p a r tic ip a te in conferences in Oetobar 1967 w ith ttm
aanageaant of tha MorfoUc and Vaatarn Railway C a th a y aad
tha general ehalraan of th a Rratharfaeod w ith r i f M i n to
B a m y lh rd employee and working aondltlona f« r than?
A X attandad aanfaranaaa l a w ith
Q 1 hand you than two
boon aarlead in evidence aa IS aad 19 , Ix fclb lta
MorfoUc and Weatern, aad aafc yaw hava yaw had
aoplaa of thaaa aaaoraada to aaa
ion to
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h. 1 . Ptimrt - Direct 665
th e
accurate as to what t h e / say?
A Tea, I hare .
Q hew, p a r t ic u la r ly as to item l in
aeaorandua, what la your re c o lle c tio n aa to
language concerning i t c a 1 la these aeaaranda u
or aotT
A This i s c o r re c t.
Q how, h a r t you eaaalnsd the r e s t cT them,
^ f a i r to say you d o n 't reaeaber whether o f the
th ings were said la th e re th a t a re r e c i te d f
A h e t a l l of them.
hew than , pesalag to another
caae up, I believe in 1965 o r 1966 eoneemlx*
of th e nasa, or the t i t l e af the employes in th e
lo rd f ro a ea r r id e r to braheasa, aad from fareaan t e
conductor, d id you p a r t ic ip a te l a a conference on th a t
su b jec t?
A lb s , Z d id .
<4 What, it anyth ing, do you reaeaber was
about oae of the re aaoaa fo r th i s change being th a t the
capleyea, p a r t ic u la r ly the ea r r id e r s d esired the mum
• h*1* * 1 *»«*«■• I t would help t h a t l a g e ttin g c r e d i t and
o therw ise, th e t i t l e had su re p re s tig e to i t .
A h e l l , th i s wee
up by oae of the
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M. X. teaaort - Direct 666
t h e i r m m should be shangad as a l l o ther ywdnan.
MR. VdBBXMXQHi Answer Mr. Needy.
1NX COURTt Cross-eatemim.
BT Ml* NOCDTt
Q Mr. P sanort, X a s going to gat in to mom
th ings th a t you hare not p e r t ie u la r ly got in to on year
d i r e s t , and i nay aeioe you ay w itness i f neeaasary f a r th a t
purpose.
Do you r e e a u th e eenfereaeee w ith Mr. L ast,
•*d X be H e re Mr. M artin sad e th e rs , in eoaneetion w ith
whether or not any type of ae rg sr Mght take p ises between
th e Barney yard nen sad the ana os the Of yard . De yea
r e e a u aee tings a t which you attended to d iscuss th a t
su b jec t?
A m s , X do.
^ Bow, th a t newer re se lre d i t s e l f , and
apparen tly the p a r t ie s were unable to cose to aa
agreement. Do you r e s e l l i t a t eaa po in t In the
d iscussions Local ST* was offered topping and battnaliM
by th e re p re se n ta tiv e s of the UTVf
A m s , they were.
Q Do you r e c a l l th a t?
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A lb s .
Q And a t o m p o in t i s i t not c o r re c t th a t
ttas re p re sen ta tiv e s of 974 Ind ies tod th a t th a t a l* x t bo
a s a t i s f o o te r / so lu tio n to i t , from t h s i r s tandpo in t?
A v e i l , w ith soma sham es.
Q V ith sons o ther changes?
A lb s .
Q Vow, th a t i s where you ran in to a s ta lem ate)
was i t no t, the o ther changes brought in to i t th a t newer
were reso lv ed 1 i s th a t co rrec t ?
A V eil, i t i s hard fo r a s to im rn r th a t
o o r r e e t l / beeause r ig h t a t th i s time I was taken in to
nsnagsaent and was o ff of the ease . go what fu r th e r stops
they took was beyond ny knowledge.
Q Well, lo t ms go baok and see i f x earn
c l a r i f y the s i tu a t io n . l a the l a s t in you
were aware of what had taken p lace , a t th a t po in t to p p im
and bottoming had been Ind icated as a possib le
s a t is fa c to ry re so lu tio n , and in tvara your group them **
th a t would be s a t is fa c to ry , bu t th a re waa seas o th e r
m atters th a t you brought in to i t , o r were brought in to i t
whioh had to bo fu r th e r considered?
A W ell, as f a r as X can r e c a l l i t was
o ffe red . Bottoming and topping was offered to the Barney
Yard people. And as x befor e s ta te d soma sham es In i t
(0 f% < > v .
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N. X. Pcanort * Cross 666
hsd to bo made i f i t more going to bo soooptod.
St Co you Know what they woroT
A I be lieve the changes, os I can r e e a l l ,
the paragraph In th a t agreeaent s ta te d th a t th ese m n would
not be allowed to wane any ensrgeney work In th e Of Ib id
u n t i l a l l o ther boards and p o s itio n s out th e re had been
exhausted. And, of course , th i s wss not aeeeptable to
the s s a .
Q R ight. And w ithout th a t , o r th a t ass one
of the th in g s th a t a t th a t po in t caused a sta lem ate in
■swing forward w ith the topping and bo tton lngf
A As I before s ta te d , a t th i s t in e X was on wy
wey out and X r e a l ly d o n 't knew.
4 X understand, and X an not try in g to
e s ta b l is h th a t th is was the f in a l p o s itio n of 97A, beeause
you were not involved a t any l a t e r n eg o tia tio n s . But a t
th a t po in t i t appear ed to be ag reeab le w ith c e r ta in
exceptions which you f o l t should be brought in , o r which
was f e l t by 97* should be brought In to i t i f they were
going to top and bottom?
A w ell, I believe to th a t , i f X can r e c a l l ,
th a t th i s had sons th in g to do w ith XBOC to o .
Q R ltfit. X believe th e SIOC cans in to i t .
Were you th ere when the XKOC, the complaint had been aade
and XXPC a c tu a lly got in to these n eg o tia tio n s . Were you
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H. 2 . P ean o rt - C ross 669
th e re then?
2 1 wee w ith th e e in the M g tn n ln i f i t .
Thsy have hod m um rom ecnfereaees slnoo I l e f t .
Q R ight. Mew, do you r e c a l l IT BEOC took
th e p o s itio n th a t th e i r o r g s i n t i o e , o r th a t e r tf to isa tie n
s s s n e t s a t i s f ie d w ith topping and b o tt owing even i f th s
aea on the two bear ds were s a t i s f i e d . Do you reo aS w r i f
th a t to e s plane while you were th e re?
A X r e a l ly d sn ft anew.
W . MOCDT* All r ig h t . X th in k th a t i s
a l l .
U S c o m t Cross-exawiae.
nr mr. nxjfQMt
Q Hr. reanert, do yes prenssnss it Seosert
or Veanort?
A It is yeaaort.
4 Thank you. X think you testified in
referenoe to a sweeties put by Hr. Worthington that yes
had event wed the deeenente that you have before yen,
identified as Psfendants• inhibits 16 and 19?
a light.
Q than did you have aa opportunity te
these doeuaanba?
_ _____ A___X had to exanine part of it on the first of
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N. B. NMWTt
tho « M k .
Q Of th is VMk?
A r i f h t .
Q Who brought than to you?
A Tho lawyer.
0 Do you rM o g a im tho lxw ytr l a ooortV
A Too.
0 woo I t tho lawyor who oxaaiaod you?
A TOO.
o Did you t o o t i f y la roforoaoo to h is qoootlooo
a fto r tho — ooiao t i oo o f ufcothor o r ao t tho a a tto r a n o a c f i l
•ro cor r aot or n o t, oad X think your Boopoooo woo a l l o f i t
io not truoT
A Tho port th a t X hod rood.
0 Mould you toko o aoooat, p laaao, ood look
through thooo too doeuaoata ood p oin t out to thoCourt thooo
porta th a t you fo o l oro ao t a oorroot rooordatlao o f tho
dloouoalono th a t uoat oo a t th a t tla a ?
NX. N o m m o N M i x oh joot to tho fa ro o f tho
quootlon. Tho vitn oaa d id n 't aoy th a t p art o f tho
i t i t i o i ota wore ao t tru a. Ho sold ho d l d a 't ro o u ll
aoMM o f tho th in gs bolny s a id . That la a l l t t l o
€79
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d iffo r o o t.
m co u r ti HO oaa road
about than. Aa I r o o a li h is
th aa,
I t
ho ooaN
w ith rog<
to X 1* th in gs th a t
W4 A. k .
had to do w ith tho oargti
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th s memorandum said* but there were o ther p a r ts
of the memorandum damling v i th o ther su b jec ts th a t
be e i th e r had to examine, or was not f u l l / In
accord w ith . I s th a t what you said* Mr. PaanortT
THE WITNESS* That i s c o rre c t.
THE COURT: What about the o th e rs .
MR. BALLKRs That i s th s U t t a r area X am
try in g to ge t into* Tour Honor.
THE WXTMBSSt There is one th in g - -
Ml. BELTON s could you Id e n tify th a t one
by e x h ib it number* Mr. F tsn o r t .
THE COURT i Look on the f ro n t page and
aay what number i t la f i r s t .
THE wiTHESSt X see the page* but X was
try in g to find out what i t r e fe r s to .
Ml. VOKnamrGMi X th ink he U looking a t
18* Tour Honor.
THE COURTS Mo. He sh ifted a f te r you a l l
l e f t him.
THE WITNESS t X had to s h i f t because X
co u ld n 't find i t . I ean t e l l you i t waa erne ef
the e x h ib its which s ta te d th a t the motor power
e i t
down fo r e lg i t hours. This was one th ing
th a t X waa In - - I d o n 't r e c a l l s ta t in g th i s . X
may hare but I d o n 't r e c a l l s ta t in g th a t .
M. £ • naoort - Cross €f\
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M. R. Foaaort - Grots 671
m. mur o t f t ju s t tsic• s m u , * > .
Poancxrt, boaauso wo would llk o to - -
IKE WlTMUSs On E xhib it 18, I to n Ho. 5.
IT MR. K fQ K i
Q Mould you rood th a t p o rtio n . Nr. go m a r t .
THK OOQRft Wist p o rt of i t do you
d is s e r t s w ith .
x r « • m a n a t
Q That you h u rt roforonoo to*
A F ort o f Xtou Ho. 5- I t i s shout th s
sotoad l in o , th s f i r s t paragraph.
Q Mould you rood I t , p losso .
A "Ho sold tdoon tho p i r n sro slosod a l l
Barm y H H son a r t ou t o f f and wslh th s s tv o s ts
whilo n s t i t t powt r dopartaont o f layas s i t 4mm
fo r s ig h t hours sad do no th ing ."
This i s tho po rt th a t I d is s e r ts w ith . X
know ao to r powtr. fhoy sro thwart, hut th sy do harvt
ra r io u s Jobs to do.
q Now, a t tho t i n s you ossntaod th us a
doouasats. Nr. Fosnort, d id you oxaaiws say o th s r doeunsats.
And X t a l l your r t f t r t a o o to a doeuaont Id o n tif la d aa
fialatiffs 1 Exhibit Ho. jl-9,
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Would you tales a aoasat to rsad th a t .
A 10s.
Q Whan i s th s f i r s t t in s you saw th a t l o t to r t
A This waste.
Q Tbs aaa t t i a s you o ssa iasd th s o th sr
dnsunsets?
A TSS.
n s const w s t l a t t s r was th a t , th s lo tto s
o f f s r is g to d o r s ta i l th s union?
MR, f la m l« Doss t a i l or topping sad
fcottsaiag , y ss .
Mo fu r th s r q usstions.
THE COURT 1 A ll r ig h t . Stop d m .
C a ll your a s z t w itness.
(Witness ossuss d . )
N. K. Psanort - Cross 673
U tU B k ff n “ « w itness fey
sad oa bohslf of th s Msrfolh sad Wes te r n , b siag f i r s t du ly
sworn, to s t i f lad so fo llow st
DOTCT XXANZMATZOM
m i n . Mcwwiwrcfli
_________ U______af t o your f ul l *000 ̂ p le a se ._____________
(>JHK
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J . Parsons - D irect 694
being f i r s t duly sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fo llow st
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY m . VQKEUMffOKs
4 S ta te year naan, p lease , s i r .
A Jans* Parsons.
Q t t s r e do you l iv e , Mr. Persona?
A Roanoke, V irg in ia .
4 h r Whan are yon employed?
A Norfolk and Vest e ra Railway Oenpany.
4 lew long have you been in the ra ilw ay
business?
A F if te e n yea rs .
4 Hew long have you been eaployed by the
Norfolk and western Railway Coapaay?
A S lig h tly wore than s ix years.
4 And before you were eaployed by the Norfolk
and Western, by whan were yaw employed?
A P ittsb u rg and west V irg in ia Railway
Company.
4 What i s year p resen t p o s itio n w ith th e
Norfolk and Western Railway Oenpany?
A An a s s is ta n t v io s-p re s id e n t.
4 And whet sp e e la l d u t ie s , i f any, do yaw
J . f U N M - U m t
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with re ference to the Ciwll Right* Act?
* 1 ** ItM **U*1 **pU yw at
opportun ity o f f ic e r .
* Poo* th a t aean jou are th* equal
Opportunity o t t l ^ r fo r t h . . n t l r . f c r f . i ,
woo to rn system?
A I N .
Q How long h*To you hold th a t p o s itio n , and
tho poo i t Ion th a t woo pro llod nary to I t?
A August 1, 1968, X beliew e.
^ Whon did you ta w onror from
prelim inary to becoming on August 1st in t h i s p o s it lo o t
A Oh, f iv e o r s ix sonth* p r io r to th a t whoa
I was in tho porsonaol departm ent.
Q Wore you a t th a t time working w ith I t . Hahn
and g radually tak ing over h is d u tie s?
4 Mm, before we got in to M s gs*ey*l
p o licy of tho ra ilro a d on th i s , I would r* you
D efendants' **h ib lta 18 and 19 which arc the w i
conferences bold w ith refer*nee to tho ro s te r
ask you i f you have aeon those before?
A Tea.
Q ware you presen t e t those conferences?
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4 Whet occasion have /on had to a— lac
those am o rM ia fo r aeeuracy?
A Well, z read them sev e ra l t i n t s . The/
are accurate .
Q The/ a re accurate?
A Tea.
Q Maw w ith reference to the Item Ms. 1 la
tooth of these conference e x h ib its which r e la te s to th e
in te g ra tio n of the ro s te r s between the B arns/ yard and the
CT B id , what was the p o s itio n of the union w ith re sp ec t
to an a x is tin g request fo r In te g ra tio n a t th a t t l a * . This
toeing October 1967. was the union asking f a r in te g re tls n
a t th a t t i n s or not?
A Vo.
4 A fter theae conferences, what fu r th e r
re q u es ts , i f a n / , or d iscu ss io n s , i f a n /, wars had about
the in te g ra tio n of th e Barney yard and the OT yard ro s te r s T
A v e i l now, are you re fe r r in g to th ese two
n es tin g s , the nenorends of these two se c t lags?
i n COURTt A fter th a t .
BY MR. VORBUMTOMt
Q follow ing those, what fu r th e r th in g s
happened about th i s I to n 1?
A I an a f ra id I d o n 't q u its follow you.
J Farsons - Direct ggg
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J. Fereo m - Dlreot «97
Q I w il l t r y to male* i t a l i t t l e c le a re r .
Thera were a one d issu asio n s , were th e re n o t, in Oatober
1967. about a fu tu re n trg o r of th e Barney la rd r e n te r and
the OT Xhrd r o s te r 1 la th a t e e r re o t?
A lb s .
Q Whet fu r th e r n eg o tia tio n s , I f any, took
plane regard ing the fu tu re nerger of the Bemey U rd ro s te r
and the CT Yard r a s te r , I f say?
A With the unions, none.
Q With the unions?
A Mono.
Q Mo fu r th e r n eg o tia tio n s j i s th a t e n r re e tf
A Baa.
Q Mon, what happened w ith re fo resee to the
possib le nerger of the two ro o te rs in Ootober 1968?
A w e ll. In Ootober 1968 th e oaepin y prepmod
e d o v e ta ilin g of the re s to re .
3 I hand you then P l a i n t i f f s ' In h ib i t Mo.
31~9 and ask you I f th e proponel i s embodied In the l e t t e r
which composes 31-9?
A lb e .
Q Can you t e l l ue whet led up to the
Issuance of th a t l e t t e r ?
A Well, the oonpaay was In te re s te d l a
in te g ra tin g the ro s te r s end th e re had been as
il>2% 3 s.
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a m a n ia a t loo fo r e o se tlM , l o m p r
• f the roatar*.
J . P ersons - D ire c t 696
<4 fo r K u t p o l l* / m a o n i , I f any, mm th e
company in te re s te d in in te g ra tin g these ro s te r s ?
A Whet p o licy ressens?
*4 I t s . The eampany, you s a id , was
in te re s te d in in te g ra tin g the r o s te r s . Why use I t
in te re s te d in in te g ra tin g the ro s te r s ?
A Because the nan requested i t , and we had ne
ob jec tions to i t .
Q Well, what p o r t, i f any, d id the
cvlo tense of T i t le VII of the C iv il R ights Aet have in Urn
company's policy?
A Well, the company was q u ite in te re s te d in
aA ln ta la inc every e f f o r t to avoid any dlserindLnstion
•gains t the blank people.
Q Wow, hew did the procedure ahossa fo r
by th i s l e t t e r of October 51, 1966 f i t in w ith the
requirem ents of the Railway Labor Aet?
A Well, the eespany can not u n i la te r a l ly
change any union ag rseaen t. The only way i t can be dsns
i s by n eg o tia tio n w ith the union. So we propnaad **><■
to n eg o tia te w ith the union on the d o v e ta ilin g of tb s
ro s te r .
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J. Parson* - Direct 699
you had in lav?
A I an a lawyer.
Q Mew, what laws than bear on the tls a lIrg i
of a c a r r ie r with l t a enployea aa to working conditions
and so fo rth ?
A The Railway Labor Act p rim arily , h a t a lso
the fe d e ra l Enployers L ia b i l i ty Act.
3 And what e th e r reg u la to ry ru le s o r laws
•P fiy to a oo—on e a r r le r?
A In te r s ta te On— erne Co— le s io n .
<4 Mom, a f te r the issuance of the l e t t e r o f
October 31# I960 suggesting the d o v e ta ilin g of these
P la te r s , what n e g o tia tio n s , i f any, or what eo— u a ie a tls— ,
i f any, were had w ith the re p re se n ta tiv e s of th e union?
A X d o n 't r e c a l l any fu r th e r w ritten
ofunmnlaa t le n s . There were sev e ra l n es tin g s with
re p re se n ta tiv e s of the union.
Q Shot was th e toner of the conversations
th a t were had in those n e e ti— i?
A W ell, the teno r of the conversation was
th a t th e — I believe th a t the fe e lin g was th a t the unions
n igh t be w illin g to top and bottom, but were not w il l is g
to d o v e ta il .
Q What was th e p o s itio n of the ra ilw ay
(p 0 2 -
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J. Parson* - Direct 700
A Wo 11, It was Inns? oriel. Wo didn't ears
another they retained tho seniority districts, whether
dovotallod or topped or bottomed.
Q What woo **id to tho union pooplo on th i s
sub jec t than?
A Wo informed than of th a t .
Q Aft o r October 31, 1968, what inform ation
d id yon receive book o ith a r from tho gonoral chairman or
fro n the lo c a l a* to whathar they war# asking f a r
in te g ra tio n of the ro s te r s and as to what b asis tho
in te g ra tio n should taka place?
A We heard nothing more.
q What was than tho next th in g th a t earns in
th e way of seamaid.nation an th i s su b jec t?
A Tho law su it.
q Wow, passing than to a p a r t ic u la r m atter
which r e la te s to the n eg o tia tio n of a i r hose a b r l t r a ry ,
what p a r t d id you hare in th a t , i f any?
A w all, I s a t In on the meetings ta lk in g
about i t .
q Za this primarily handled by U p. hart in?
A »l.
<3 Hew, beginning in 1968 when you took scar
from Nr. Hahn, what waa the policy of the railway company,
if any, with reepeet to the Oivil Rights Act and its
631
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J. Parsons - Direst
by mr. v a m u n ro M :
707
Q I asked h ie i f he was fatal l i a r in the
changa in the nunhsr of black employes. i s a n a t te r of
#
i t 1s s tip u la te d c e r ta in changes have taken p la c e .
This w itness nap or nap not know p erso n a lly shout i t ,
teckuse I had prepared h la only an the system f ig u re s .
A Mo, I d o n 't know, s p e c if ic a l ly .
rn. WORTHHOTORJ A il r ig h t , s i r . Aaaeer
Nr. Needy.
TBS COOT s Cress-examine.
CROSS-SXANXXATXON
BY NR. MOODYi
^ Nr. Parsons, I believe you remained in tha
courtroom during the t r i a l j have you not?
A Yea.
Q You heard the testim ony of Nr. Martin th a t
th e p resen t p o s itio n of the Norfolk end w estern R ailroad
was th a t th e p re fe rab le so lu tio n would bo a topping and
bottoming of these ro s te r s i f any type of merger war# to
taka p lace . Are you in accord w ith th a t positionT
A Based on what X have boon to ld , yes.
Q And why would you take th a t p o s itio n ?
A Well, i t would appear to provide fo r an
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J • ?arsons - Cross
o r d e r l j w sj of doing th ings ra th e r than s s la n bang
isathod th a t n ight oauaa a l l kind a of problem s
4 In o thar words, I t would t>« jo u r thought
th a t to do tha d o v e ta ilin g would ba a d ls o rd a r l j waj. i t
would d is ru p t tha normal proeaduraa in both jrardsj would
I t not?
A I would th in k ao.
Q And In tu rn , so jou haard f r a a *>. Brjas*
who ta a t l f la d f a r tha H I V , eould wary w all aauao
a a f a t j hazards In both yardsj aould i t net?
A w ail, I t appears ao. X d o n 't s t a r work
In the yard.
Q You would agree, booed on what you hoard
la Court?
A iso .
Q And jo u r e f fo r ts to jo u r p o l le j p roposal,
or jo u r proposal d ea lin g w ith the problem was out of jo u r
concern, to ba aura th a t jeu did souply w ith T i t le YXX
of the C iv il R ights Act?
A P a r t l * n j , j« s . Wo d id n 't want anythUgi
to oeeur whore wo would bo ooouood of v io la tin g the
C iv il R ights Act.
Q Tha i m has a largo number of
government c o n tra c ts j does i t not?
A Not very aan j.
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/ J . Parsons - Cross 709
Q i r t you do hay# g w t w a l sen t m e te ?
A Woll, I would soy very , very few, ae tw elly .
Q dow, os fo r os the l s t t s r Shot woo wr&ttoa
to d r. Luo*, I believe dotsd Ostobor 31, 1968, In wh&sh 0
i
proposal woo nods, Z believe you s to tsd th a t proppool woo
1
nods regard ing d o v e ta ilin g , fo r th s purpose of
nego tia tion* ! i s th a t o a rre s t?
A Vs11, any propanol ws nans I s fo r th s
purpsos of ns got 1 s t ion . Ws c a n 't talcs u n i la te r a l o s tio n .
Q Z understand. In o ther words, you would
n e t f e e l th a t i t would be fso o lh ls to d o v e ta il th s re n te rs
of these two yards w ithout fu r th e r n eg o tia tio n s record ing
th s b a s is of sueh d o v e ta ilin g ?
A do.
Q There a re nany, nany problend th a t would
be invo lved | would th e re not?
A 1 would isoune th e re ore 0 g rea t nany*
Q R ight. And eons of thone would be as
woo pointed out in eonaeetion w ith the V irg in ian , on what
b as is the d o v e ta ilin g would tone p lo ee , and you would not
neoeaaar l l y propane an equal out and out d o v e ta ilin g on
an equal b asis of the two yards 1 would you?
A veil, th i s la eons th in g th a t would be l e f t
up to our labor re la t io n s people. I w ouldn't propeso
anything s p e e lf le . This la not in ay ba illw lek .
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718
th a oourtrooa. K« i s ovor a t our aauaaal ta b la .
TKX COWTt A ll r l< h t .
L ft. »» • wltoa** ty and
•a k ttaalf of Wa m l tad T ranspo rta tion QR&ea, t a l a s f i r s t
du ly n a n , t a a t l f la d u fo l lo w s
Q S ta ts yaur aauao and t d d m s , p laaaa .
A X. 0. M a m .
Q W ars do you l i r a ?
A 23513 Daw C lrc la .
Q Wharo ara you saployod?
A Norfoia as* N sstars Railway.
Q Haw long t a w you taaa saplayad w ith tha
Norfolk and tfaatava R ailroad ?
A Slaaa 1928, about fo r ty - th ro a ya w .
q M an you want t s nark fo r tha N orfolk aad
waa to rn in 1968, W at typa of work d id you f i r s t b a s is
w ith?
A I waa aaployod aa a o a l l bay.
q A a a l l boy? Viat ia th a t?
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*• C. NoSown - Direct
C all crew©.
719
THE COURTt i bav« heard of a © all g i r l ,
k t t t M t i ©all b©7 .
BY Ml. MOCDTt
8 *<■!' « r . t»o d l f f . r « n t « » . . of —r ' - m r r t
X g a th a rf
A That la rlM kt.
Q Tha work th a t you e a rn e d ©at th e re , 414 you
balong to a union a t th a t t in e o r J a la a union « t th a t t in e ?
A Bo, I 414 no t.
Q You 414 not ?
A Mo.
^ A ll r ig h t , a i r . M a r i 414 you go to t©
*PPl/ f a r work oa th a t oeoaeU at
A To tha general yardaaeter a t th a t t l a a .
Q Do you m a n haw you happen* to g a t a Joh
working, haw you happened to knew about work being
a v a ila b le r
I
A Ky fa th e r waa a genera l yarrtneater a t th a t
t in e , and I had an uaol© th e re th a t had p rev iously been
© apaeltyf
Vow, how long did you work la th a t
About 1934.
•> ! A
4
And what d id you do th *n?
I Milt in to tM t w i n M W * * tM B “
1. c. MoQo'm - Direct
7*0
M ir flt i
In 19&*
b A
Q
or not Ihw *
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u g g k in to tM tjpnlflHon, uhsn you
Aid |w t tPIn to t w in do w ln o l
OB tM darfollc t o w l w l -
i f you r o o t l l i And uould jou iW W , xx p *
^ w ustom «m ^d m twm “
tM olnnnl̂ tontlon W** *** M",t
*m m non* I would » T « " n •A l t d . Th*r * ***'
e igh t « t th a t t in * .
„ p u »W J**» • tt" lon “* tM t
__ Ju ly 8 , X lMilldV® , —« oiin union on ju-i-jr »A Yds, I Join t* urn w«*
193*-
Q
A
a
A
Q
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2 . )
yh st union did you Join?
o f « « U r o « l t w l — .
■__ . xoonl did »w» t o ’
Lounl W > •
M « ld JOU t o l l - t t f -W -W * * “
o f 10 0 .1 550 . t t M t t i n . ! - . « - -
r n » - —
Loosl 55°• _ _
A M U . • * « - t t l - U « • « “
. todM « - W 1» » o r fo U » t » U f M « - M r f .
tr*lnM»n * lod«o *****
y ic itifn RaXlnuy *
S. C. MeOcarn - Dlrsot 721
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q Do you know I f th s Bar nay TUrd had m y typs
an o r f t t i u t k f i a t th a t tins T
A Thsy had aoaa typa of o rg an isa tio n , bat I
d o n 't ro o a ll tha aamm of i t .
q was i t a soparat* o rgan isa tion f ra a 550t
A I t was.
$ Whsro did you work or what avoaa d id you
work In in your oapaolty aa a bratcaaaa a ta r t ln s to work
in tha ts ru ln a l tharoT
A X wonosd in th s to r a ln s l whloh aoaaiatad
o f, a t th a t t i a a , of Portloek yard , Laaborta Point yard
and Norfolk yard.
q For what parlod of t in s d id yaw work aa a
of
A As a braasaan up u n t i l 1935
p ro f i trd to ooaduotor in 1939*
q Lot as ask you th i s . IW a
obsorvatlon in tha Norfolk t a r n l n i l , aro th s dwtiao of a
brskssnn on thooo yards tho saas or s i n l l a r today ao thsy
wore fro a 193* to 19397
A oonorolly , yoa.
q Would you t o l l no what your d u tlsa woro aa
a braksaan during th a t porlod of tlnoT
A Of oeuros, tho braksaan was suppoaod to
a s s i s t th s oonduotosv NilClad up t r a in s , and sw itching tha
K. c. - D iract 722
of th# * iaaa lfy in g tra in * and asaanbling t r a in * .
2 htinpl** ao a l.
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And in doing *o **• i t n****aary Tor ym f
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4 Know th* rar!*** »igP*l* iw rolrad In handling tra in * ?
5 A Ox, pa*. You had ln ta rlaa lc iag *10*1*
i
ft u d fU »d *J«*al*.
7 4 What ara ln ta rlo d c ln g signal*T
8 A That i* * ig * l* goaam ing your d im a tio n ■
9 | through an ln tn rlook ing p la n t.
i
i o ! Q Ara thay o a n tra lla d by • * • t l u t i a i l f l
a eq u ip ew t o r by hand, a annual operation?
12 A In »om instanaa* thay a ra hand. * a * * U y
13 opam tad. In tom in stan t** thay a ra co n tro l lad by
!
14 o la t t r a n la a . i
15 Q Did your worn iaa lad a handling tra in * a t
in crossing*? 1
1 7 A ^ a .
18 Vorfcli* on tra in * a t c rossings?
1 9 A Via, s i r .
20 1
What do** th a t in a a l ta t
21 A I t in ro lva* flag g in g of tha arc**lng* 1rt11
i
22 no * l* * tr* a l* davl*a* aara * d n ta ln a d .
20) Q Did i t in ro lr* handling d e ra il* t
24 A f t i t imrolT*d handling d a ra i la an th*
in d u s tr ia l *lding*.2 5
E. C. MeQown - Diroot 723
Q What la th a t?
A 3IdInga throughout Norfolk term inal where
In d u s tr ie s ara looatad .
Q What la a d e ra i l?
A A d e r a i l i s , Z guess you would c la s s i fy i t
as a I d o n 't know how ex a c tly to t e l l you. There i s
soo* type of d e r a i ls , the type sa ile d a Bayes d e r a i le r ,
and a type s a ile d a Smith d e r a i le r . The Hayes d e r a i le r
i s a heavy type ob ject th a t f i t s over the r a i l , and sens
of then are operated from a sw itch . The o ther type i s
operated by a nan p u llin g th en o ff the r a i l h in s e l f .
Q l a o ther words, sons of th is requ ired
annual physica l operations or work?
A I t r e a l ly d id . l a f a s t , when they f i r s t
put the large Hayes d e r a i le r in , Z th in k they weighed shout
90 pounds. I t teak two nan to handle i t , and th ey were
sonething to t r y to ge t o f f , e sp e c ia lly in the wl n t ar tin a
i f they were frozen .
Q Do they s t i l l do th is type of th in g on the
Norfolk yard?
A gas, a i r .
Q Do the OT Thrdnen have to ca rry out th is
type work a t th e p resen t t in s ?
A Oh, yes. zt i s p a r t of th s l r d u tie s .
41 A ll r ig h t , s i r . How about handling th s
& VO
E. C. - D irect
724
t s | H
tamoicl#. la coupling and uncoupling e a rs . I* i t
» t t i m n to pkfi.Mii,r moro t h e , .~,-n1t.
aouplcd or uncoupled?
A Has, s i r . i t i s necessary
t k , , drop out of t o . to r . . p i .* » * . ^ M p o t
In .
Q What do they weigh?
A I would say c la s s to around 70 o r
®° «** 90 pounds.
Q Is th i s a p a r t of your d u t ie s , o r was *Mw
• p a r t of your d u tie s as a b r lm m n to a c tu a lly l i f t and
p la ss these 80 pound inaisklos In to p o s itio n ?
A Oh, yes. I f you are in p o s itio n B a m ia i
Wh*r * 3F®U •** '* *** ass la tones, in order to mrtp the
t ra in s nosing you have to perform those d u tie s .
^ A il r ig h t . non, a re you fa m ilia r w ith
the worn o f the man 1*0 work on what la known as the
Barm y lh rd a t K erfoik term inal?
A w ell, I wouldn 't aay x am fa m ilia r as f a r
as — I know what the work I s . in f s e t , I was over on a
Job up th ere one time and I decided t e s ta y oa the
Q Did you have an opportun ity o sar th e
to observe whst they a re doing on occasions ?
■; A h i , s i r .
4 Do you know of any work th a t th sy perf<
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E. C. MeOown - Diract
th a t 1 * ■ ore strenuous or eore d i f f i c u l t than th e w o t
carried out on th e CT Yard?
A hot th a t I know o f.
q Would you consider th is work to be ears
awnlal or sore d ir t y than the work on the OT W r i t
A Mo, s i r . j
.
q What would be sane of the work ea the Of
la rd th a t you would consider to he d i r t i e r or ju s t as
e e n ia l as the work on th e Barney Yard?
i
A W ell, when we shore ears up on th e hasp
on the Barney Yard, why i f th a t wind la blowing yen fimt j
about s e t covered up w ith co a l d i r t by th e t in e you s e t tow I
the end of the huap. And you have to physi c a l l y beadle
the hand brakes on i t to apply th e hand brakes. ,l
q Bow, to p h y s ic a lly handle the hand brake,
1
where do you have to be to do th atT
A Down between th e care on the end e f the ear*
ttw lo c a tio n o f the hand bran* * i l e h la on the atop .
q la i t located up a t the top o f the ear car I
a t the botton o f the oar?
A l a moat cases the brake step la Jnet abaut,
I would s a y , about four or f i v e f e e t fr e n the to p of the
oar. But in aoaa esses we have had oere where th e hand
brakes was a t the button of the oar.
q in any oaae when you are a tto a p tin p t o _____
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operate those brakes w ith loads of *osl, do you toad to
.,
got d i r ty fro* operating them?
A A bsolutely.
<4 How, you Mentioned when th e wind la
blowing. How about when the wind la not blowing. M l the
ea rs are easing In eon t a c t w ith sash ether* and these ea rs
are loaded w ith ooai. Does th i s hare say o f f s e t on the
c le a n liness o r d i r t in e s s of the Job?
A Any t in s you work around ooal you are galM
to ge t d i r ty .
4 M at about the re s p o n s ib i l i ty f r e e yeur
observation as between th e two yards. Would you s ta te
whether or not th e re Is say wore re s p o n s ib i l i ty m mm
yard than th e re Is sa the other* sad I f so Uhl eh aae w i ld
eeary th e aoat re sp o n s ib ility ?
A Well* I would say th a t I t la ab so lu te ly
i
aore re sp o n s ib il i ty down in the 0T Sard besauae you have
!
aore th ings to look out fo r . t h a t la you a re involved
j
In sw itching through crossovers. Thu a re Involved w&th
I
crews aovlng on the e ld s of you* book sad forth* and th e
i
aaa has got to bo even aore a l e r t down th e re where you
have a l e t of are a s working.
4 Do the aen on the Barney Hurd have any
s ig n a ls to worry about th a t you know of?
___ _ A. ... Mot th a t i_ know o f . ____ ______________ ... !
S. C. ttoOown - Direct 72$
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Q Do th iy hiv« any t r a in orders to concern
W M M lw w ith in tha Bamay t e d ?
A Mo, no t r a in orders involved a t a l l .
*4 Do they have any t in s ta b la s to know about? !
A Ms t in s ta b le s .
i
Q Do thay nava any erooainge to handler
A Mo pub lic c rossings th e re a t a l l , no, s i r .
3 Mow, would you t a l l ns fro u year observation I
of tha work on th a two je rd e , whether or n e t a mm f ro n th e
B. C . HoOown - Direct
Barney t t r d w ith equal s e n io r i ty would bo ab le to ow n ever !
and ca rry out the work on the Of t e d , not having irnrhsd
on th a yard before?
MR, BELTOtfi O bjection, your Honor. X
th in k th i s s a i l s fo r sp ecu la tio n on the s o r t of
the w itness bootees ha has net Indicated he keens
any of the people on the Barney t e d , and M at
j i
q u a li t ie s o r a b i l i t i e s they have.
tHB COURTi I th in k he oaa naios an
obser vat io n .
de it.
Your exception i s in th a record .
A ^(Continuing) I would say # 'a»n would
have q u ite a d i f f i c u l t t in e sowing
easing to th e CT t e d , fo r one
would n o t bo fanlliar w ith th e
o ff the
p a r t ic u la r
ii
726
■ore tra c k s . Ton hov« about 500 traoica, Z would oay,
w ith in ho rfo lk to rn in o l, o r wot* i f you want to inoludo
ind u stry o ld lnca th a t ho would bo obao lu to ly lo o t oo. I t
would to m h i* ooaoidoroblo t in o to co t aoquaintod w ith tho
X. C. MoOown - Direct
H MR. WOODY*
q Cow, how lone do you th in k o r i* o t poriod
of oKRorionoo would you th in k would bo ro*ui*od fo r o M
to eono on tho Bornoy » r d and bo oblo to oorry out
p ro fio io n tly ond f u l ly hio du tloo on o brokoonnT
A wo 11, WO would bo npo o tl nc of o won of
nOT— 1 l iM U l^ n M . I w«14 “ X *hat *•»“ «*• r t
looot th roo or fou r yooro. ■Mrbo lon®or.
Q cow, would you o ta to a u th o r o r wo* thoro
1 . any Job oo M - »**> lB
ra a p o a a lb lllty an , M l M to th a coadaotor l a t h . Od T ar,?
A i d o n 't th in k thoy hfcwo nay typo thoro
th a t would oouporo w ith i t , no.
q And whot would bo your opinion no to tho
a b i l i ty or a - rn to COM f r o . a Job lo t » aaroay M aa
a eoH luator, or w ith tha a .n lo r l ty to n i l a ao fttoa tw a«a
aeM ovar to th a 01 T a r ,. Do you th la lt ha aouM a a iry
out tho dutioo of o conduotort
Co, o i r . I th in k ho would bo o « p ld to lyA
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£ C. McQown - Direct
lo c t because the d u tie s on the CT Yard are e n t i r e ly
d if fe re n t from the d u tie s of a fa ren as on the Barney Yfcrd.
4 And what period of t i e s would you, fro n jo u r
observation , th ink would be nseeseery f a r m e to lea rn tha
d u tie s of a conductor?
A w ell, i would say about the a sm t i e s as i t
would a braksesn, th ree to four years.
4 A ll r ig h t . Bow, you s ta te d you were •
******** from 1934 to 1939. Sinee th a t t i e s , whet has
been your employment?
A whet i s what?
4 what Jobe have you held s le ee 1939?
j
A Well, I have been yard conductor s in es
1939* *od in 1991 I wee prenoted to e a r r e ta rd e r opera to r.
I hold ca r re ta rd e r operato r now.
i
m You were conductor fro u '39 u n t i l 1952?
A *51.
TBE COURT* *51.
THE WITNESSi '51 , yes, s i r .
i
729
BY Ml. MOODY*
Q Mew, where i s your ea r re ta rd e r p o s itle n ?
A Located on Lasberta Point yard s a ile d the
huap c la s s i f ic a t io n yard.
* Do you know your p lace on the s e n io r i ty
730
:)
4
ro * tc r In the CT iw d ’
A yeo. s i r . I a* on to p .
. _ on theQ Sine* you have been on
« . H ^ r l V « « - * “ * ° f * *
M *■ — » '* l l r 0 *d *“ * ^ °f?
A te e , • iT -
ft th a *«**>•• ° r th *
•y s te a t
A w u . •*»» » <•» «— t 0
t l l l t u . u « « - “ fo r’“ r * *° l * - d w W r -
f „ , , « lo t of paopla .o o w a 1* ' “ J *•»** “ “ *
fo r t , , c t ~ — - C — - ^
_ in f e e t , U i f i r e t
of M rv lo . th a t tw y P ~ f « « . » ___ k
►k. ^ t i o n .1 * * * * *d iv is io n of the n n tle n s l ednin
. th a t . e e n le r l ty Isboard neld on neny ew es
w ^ « r t y ^ 1 -
porfo— d f * tb * *a r r l *r '
, M I -"U ro w o d i t r » »TO w
_ th a t « • t r . - y®» “ « * • “ 1“r lWa a n lo rl.tr «*»*” ,
yard « d you tu>** * « » lo rlts r In the *em«y I *r ® J
Of yard?
A That i s r i t f i t .
. , A tate vbetber or not toq And would you
^ « — « - — * « “ * r 0 , t ~ f r ~ *“ w tm l
^ ^ I t w ith tha orr T»rd « ~ ld * . *
B. C. He O w n - Direct
Lul yL
s e n io r i ty sye tea as you understand I t?
A Z would say I t would be.
q Mould you s ta te ano ther or not th e s e n io r i ty
4 system noises ra ilro a d went acre d e s ira b le t
A I t la an lnoen tlve . Whan you f i r s t was*
X. C. NeQown - D ire c t 731
ti
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fo r th e ra ilroad* they gain In s e n io r i ty whlah g lues then
I
prof e re nee, aaybe an e a s ie r J e t , aaybe a day Job. Ifeyts
a nigtit jo b . I t g ives th en p reference .
q And would you s ta te whether e r n e t i t i s
Important to bars s e n io r i ty In the e f f ic ie n t o p e re tta s ef
11 ra ilro a d s?
12 A lb s , a i r . X c e r ta in ly do th in k i t i s
13 im portant.
14 <4 Does i t land i t s e l f to the s t a b i l i t y s f
15 the eaployasait lev e l?
16 A m
17 Q Vow* ware you p re se n t, e r were yes in 1
is
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yard a t Ilorfolk whoa Local 97* was fcursed
A fo e , a i r .
q What i s the b a s is of
A N tahership in 9T* i» fo r
e^>loyss on th a t s e n io r i ty d i s t r i e t .
<4 Does the rose e r e e l
w ith i t whatsoever?
A ho* a i r . _____
in 97*?
have anything t e do
S. C. McOown - Direct
Now, I believe when they fa r—d , o r ig in a lly
• p e r t of %— Brotherhood of —A ire—
*% th a t %1— | du they n e tt
A That le r ig h t .
Q Which wee l a t e r ohangad to the un ited
T ransporta tion Union?
A That le r ig h t .
4 Can yea e ta te whether or not yen knew I f
theee nan In the Berm y yard were given a choice of fencing
th e i r own lo ca le or ooaalng w ith another lo ca l?
A w ell, e t the t in e th a t — to the beet o f —’
re c o lle c tio n the t l — Ledge 97* wee ch a rte red , th e Barney
yard e—loyea were given the oppo r tu n ity to p e t i t io n
Norfolk Lodge 590. And i t woe by th e i r choice th a t they
requested th a t they have th e i r own lodge oa the Berm y
Q Do yew know —y they choee to term t h e i r
own organ!eetion?
73#
In
felt ll— that they would he
o f th e ir own a f f a ir e .
NR. BKZffQNt Z o b je c t to th a t, ltour
m r COURT I D on't M y W— t th ey
o n le— yew can t e l l — who in a u th o rity w ith than/
to ld you. otherwise i t would be hearsay evl
('o*f1^
*. C. NcOown - Direct 7J3
1
BY m . MOGDYt
2 i Q Let ns go back and ask sene questions
3
which a t / •hangs the p ic tu re on t h i s . * > . itodown, haws
4 you held a p o s itio n in Local 550?
5
A i
, 1 haws. Local chalm nn.
6 Q And when ware you lo c a l ehalraan?
7 A 1952.
8 U ntil when?
9 A U n til 193d. 1 th in k i t was ' 3 8 . Let m
10 see . 1 was lo c a l ohalraan fro * 1954 to i 960.
11 Q A ll r ig h t .
12 A And then again from '68 to *69.
13 Q And in th a t cap ac ity did you hare occasion
14 to know of
1
and consu lt w ith and be consulted w ith by the
15 ■sabers of re p re se n ta tiv e s of 974 w ith reference to fo rnU g
1(1 a separa te o rgan isa tion o r going w ith 550?
17 A I t s , s i r . We ta lked about i t n « r tim es.
Q And whet was th a t . You s ta te d th a t
19 d ec is io n . Do you know why they aede th a t decision?
1
20 Ml. KUTOHi Objection again on the sans
21 | grounds.
22 J TIB coder j un less you t e l l as whs I t was
23 s p o s lf ic a l ly th a t sa id th a t th i s was sens s ^ f i r n
24 of the body p o l i t i c of 974, then i t i s excluded.
25
*
YKB WXfNBSa: I th in k 1 can c la r i f y th a t ,
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X. C. MoQown - Direct
Tour Honor.
734
BT Ml. MOODY s
Q do ahead, i f you eon answer I t . I
A At th e t in e Mr. Fred Oregory wes a m bi r of
Norfolk Lodge 550, he was the f i r s t lo c a l chalrnan of
Lodge 974. And I ta lk ed and d iscussed I t w ith Mr. Gregory j
neny t in e s in regard to th e Barney yard enployes th a t they
wanted working conditions t e t t e r th e m , and he sa id th a t
m a mb them - - h e had ta lk ed to than and i t was th e i r
opinion they would be nueh b e t te r o ff i f they ha t t h e i r
own lo c a l.
MR. HEITOR I This is double hearsay, Bear
Honor.
THB COURT i z e a n 't hear what Mr. d reg cry 's
opinion n igh t have been. i t would hare to oesn
fro n sens o ther course.
MR. MOODYi A ll r ig h t .
i
BY Ml. MOODYs
Q Mr. MeBown, whet a re th e advantages or
disadvantages o r hewing your own lo c a l la the f e l te d
T ransporta tion Union?
A By haring your own lo c a l you can hare your
own lodge o f f ic e rs and you can hare your own lo c a l
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X.c. Modown - Direct
r tp rc M n ts t lv 4 , whloh Is in o o n tio t w ith th t t e r r i e r .
Q And do you have a de lega te to tho
n a tio n a l oomrantlon a lso?
A V**# •!*■. Each lo c a l has a de leg a te to the
n a tio n a l consention.
Q Do you harm tho opportun ity to bo
roproooatod by your own grievance e o a a ltte e aa oppoaod to
aoaw o th er o rgan isa tion grlevanoe eoondttee?
A *a«h lo c a l haa th o lr own grlewanoe
com alttoo.
i
4 Now, tho c o n s ti tu tio n of tho United
T ransporta tion union was Introduced, which was l a o f f s e t
I
in 1955. And on Paga 72, dea ling w ith wat e r ah lp , i t
s ta te s th a t In o rder to be a — he r of the Brotherhood of
R ailroad Trelmaan th a t th e ap p lican t s h a l l be a w hite wale.
I
sober, in d u s trio u s , and w il l ha te good moral ch a rac te r .
Can you t e l l no whether or not th a t p rov ision haa been
taken out of th is c o n s titu tio n ?
A lb s , s i r . i t was taken out.
Q What p a r t o f i t was taken out?
A The p a r t th a t applied to the d ia e r ia in a t lo s
aga in st tho —
i
4 And i s th ere any prov ision —
THE COURTS How about tho p a rt th a t said
you had to be sober. Old they lease th e t in there?
735
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B.C. NoOown - Direct
THB WEPICSS t That was taken out to o , a i r .
n r m. moan
q I s th e re any p rov ision In the p resen t
c o n s ti tu tio n of United T ranspo rta tion Union U n i t la g the
nastiaretilr btoause of raeoT
A So4 s i r .
Q Do you ro o a il when th a t was taken o tftt
A About I960.
q And ovon p r io r to the t i n s th a t t h i s was
r in r a i l fro * your c o n s ti tu tio n , wore unshorn allowed who
worn of ton Macro race?
A Has.
q gvsn though th i s was in the e e u e tih it ia n
they p o ru itto d th e* to eewe in p r io r to i 960 whan I t was
taken out?
A m s , a i r .
q haw, one of the a lle g a tio n s i s t h i s wait
i s th a t the Loeal W> has boon involved i s n eg o tia tin g
sen t ren te th a t have eaused tone hardship on th e
« n * e re of 97*. Would you s ta te whether o r not th e lo e a l
ledge has anything to do w ith n eg o tia tin g wage sen*neats?
A The lo ea l lodge ean sake j i la m n d c tla n a
probably of what they d e s ire to th e general cowait te e .
Ant th e general chalm an n eg o tia te s the c a n tm e t._________
foS
736
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I . C. Hedown - D ire c t 737
% ***• in * ease where Local Lodge 550 has i t s
o«b o rgan isa tion and Local Lodge 974 has i t s ova
o rg an isa tio n , who would mkm the rio im sn il a t ta in fo r the
— hare of the re sp ec tiv e lodgesT
A I t would he dose by the a>nb eg sh ip to the
general ehaJm en.
i
Q low shout grievancea. th e would handle
grievances fo r the sen te re of a c e r ta in lodge?
A The lo c a l ohalm an handles the grlevaneee
on e loca l le v e l . or course then I f he eanaot ge t the
11
grlevaneee cocrreeted they r e f e r to the generel cheiruen.
j
a le u , a f te r you served — I believe yes s ta te d
you served sev e ra l t in e s as lo e s l o h s ire sa . What o ther
p o s itio n s have you held in Loesl 550?
A L eg is la tiv e re p re se n ta tiv e .
'
q And whet Is the function of a le g is la t iv e
re p re se n ta tiv e ? I
A I handle s a fe ty s e t t e r s and n a tte rs
regard ing le g is la t io n . Meetly through the ehalrwsa e f the j
— I assn , th reuga th e s ta te d im e te r e f the le g is la t iv e
board.
Q And a re you p re se n tly , sad hsve jreu been
l
the le g is la t iv e re p re se n ts tlv e since what, 1954?
A 1952.
___ __ Q how, going bsea fo r a unseat to your p o s it le a
65*/^
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aa lo c a l ehairaan , what arc the func tions of the lo c a l
chairmen la a lo c a l?
A v a i l , the a a la func tion of the lo c a l
chairman la they handle g r ie vances re fe rre d to him by the
lodge with the lo c a l o f f i c ia ls o f the c a r r ie r , and then la
ease th a t he nemwt get the grievances co rrec ted , he
re fe rc the grievances to the general chalrwaa f a r handling. I
Q And aa a lo c a l cha lm aa of 550, hare yeit
had any grievance re fe rre d t e yen by anyone to a t t empt to
bring about a merger of the r eet e«e o f 974 tad 550?
A Met to me, no, e l r .
q Mew, w ith r e f e rence to the onion i t e e l f ,
do you have any co n tro l o r doee the lo c a l, o r the VO hare
I
any co n tro l over the h ir in g g re e tle e a of the ra ilro a d ?
A He, e l r .
Q Again, going beck t e the gueetloa o f any
merger req u es t, do yea knew of any request by m e a l 874
during your time aa lo c a l chairman to merge w ith Local 550?
A Ha, a i r .
q weald a mar gar of th e two lo c a ls b ring about
any ctuuge vhateeaver w ith re ference to work th a t they do?
A X d o n 't see hew i t could .
q whet la th e , i f X nay term I t t h i s way —
X believe yen s ta te d th a t the nenherehlp la th e lo c a l la
baaed on wtNre yea work?
S. C. JtcOown - Direet 73d ;
it 5 $
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S. C.
A n u t it 1*4 *. I t It too* •• | W »
eeeltrltf UitrUt.
Q I M r Molorlti 41*trl*tT
A 1M.
% AaA to f w r MMwlo4«o hot oltMtr u u l ff%
or W atlvttlat^ mmj rttiAllf ■igruptrl ItAgeef
A Hot to ay M M l LMU4, M ,
Q To 3nmr m m m Im ||« M l LMMl 550 i » « # | M |
O M D ItfOlTOtf «3P 6MMM* *ny MMMoor of 97% to Mo dtpAvt*
of M l «a»ioff*Mt* or frtMttlf o p y o r t f I t f t f
A *o* to «r
Q D. « M r t m U f U U l * • < • « » **•*'
A Mo, Sir.
Q Mow, * fe t «t«aA lo t M Off** of flMtlMC
on tt« WKemw IftH, or 0*1 Woo Off no*, t M f 4 •*
A M tll, I
n «M «r
ttai tida't
« a i ttat
A to t* of v ta i
• M M l t f ■**
;o » t* r t « H t»
> to »•* « *
l a j t r l to tad
________SL
1
" T r o s ts r s ,
0M r s s t s r s .
3 * f I
4 ^
5 probably
6 JSOS Ml
7 too s s s l
8
9 M US 1
10
11
12
13 or o r w
1 4 H tl* *
1 . 0. - p i r s e t
m know fro * r* » r la f
• r f M t smO* u
Moll,
1%
A
4
A
X sosl*
I f
mtt
X
f i r s t
I
T ff g y m I K f i r s t os too Of
^ ^ ^ ftios. A ll t o s f
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^ * ~OT « * *»U •
s Js* so tb s
A <*. I
Q A*A 1
A
*
i f t
to hs*« •
X th is * so
X s i l l
n m t i t
of
tfouli X
aoft y ss tfc ls . Bo
U ssslA bat
1 S ? * -
(
t
c
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B. C D l m t m
A Bo, sir. z don't think so.
^ Iki don't think it would tot
Of BsN
Q Mh/ not?
A l N t H M , llko X ktktod
until tho tmnmj turd non
* *• 'ten tho/ oowid eotwoil/
# I t m M | m
to on/ tonofit.
MR. MOCDTt Tho Ok mt, Mr. MM twn * u u n h
,1
i
« » OOQRf t Lot's soo how no iMWt t# §0 j
firm here. i
m . vaaxxaaroMi i w x o m ». it dooon't 1*
4
■MSB on/ dlfforonoo •
I»38
Mo dost
how* on/ quMtlom.
« n oourti All n«ht. x m u doe Ida it
when X «ot to thft U W v •
M U MOffflMt Could wo lo/ tho
5l
now. Tour Sonar. jfj
w n comat Thar fa. p
4- *
M U WCBTMIMMN»9 With this so f
ot thin faint, wo don't hero on/ quantJmnhb •
̂r
j
f
4 1.
CRCBS-SUjcDuvian 1 ■
r ,
j
j<. -•
(*5? - ! .; <
Coal and cotce.
Yard.
2 . C. NcQown - C ross 753
lme stinc the/ put over In the Barney
‘ 1 thlnic are speaking also on a windy
day the dust can fly all over people in the CT Yhrdj la
that correct?
A On a windy day the dust flies everywhere.
THE COURT: I promise you I am not going
to decide this case on whether the wind la
blowing or not, Mr. Belton. You all have
whipped that horse to death.
MR. BELTON* I don't think we have any
further quest ions.
THxt COURT* And in spite of even what I
might think of my Job, there is no way I can stop
the wind.| I
MR. BELTON* We are not going t3 ask you to
!
do that, Your Honor.
; i
No further questions.
THE COURT* Step down.
(Witness excused.)j
i
ROLAND E. LANCASTER, called as a witness
by and on behalf of the United Transportation Union, being
: first duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRLCT L X a MINAT ION
\
B Y M . MOCCY:
State your nuate sad acdresa, please.
I
a Roland £. Lancaster, 6277 Cnesapeake
Boulevard.
|
* Mr. Lancaster, where are you employed?
A Norfolk terminal, Norfolk and Western
Railroad.
4 And when did you go to work there?
A I hired out there February, 1937-
4 Have you worked regularly?
A No. I hired out as a brajcemsn.
u You went to work as s brakeman in 1937?
i» Y e s .
4 Ana since that t i n have you worked for the
N & W Railroad continuously?
A No, I resigned in 19
^ And when dlu you go back to work for them?
A 19*7.
4 Do you hold any office in either the local
or national union that you are represented by?
A No, I don't.
Q Have you ever held any office in either the j
local or the national?
R. £ . L a n c a s te r - E ia -eo t 754
(obO ?...
R. E. Lancaster - Direct
755
9 I
10
I 1
12
13
14
13
18 |
19
20 |
21
22
23
21
A No, air.
* H#ve jrou had an opportunity since you
started to wont for th. Norfolk and waatarn Railroad to
observe the wont that goes on in the Barney yard hap. ^
Norfolk?
A Yes, sir.
And have you worked yourself on the CT
Yard regularly since 1947?
A Yes, sir.
^ As a brakeman?
A Brakeman and conductor.
^ Brakeman and conductor ?
A Yes.
Q N o w * how iong does it take a new brakeman,
a normal individual who comes on the yard, CT yard, how
long does It take a new brakeman to learn the Job
properly?
A That is a hard matter to say. Soma of
them catch on quicker than others. II
Q On an average?
A C* an average I would aay maybe two years
to be able to get around the yard and learn all the tracks
and that stuff.
^ rfhat are soma of the differences in the
requirements of the work and duties of a brakeamn working
4 U/ I '5-
R. E. Lancaster - Direct 7 5 6
14
l'i
U)
IS
1!)
20
_^4 *-n g br&KemBn on the Barney Yard? on the CT Yard as opposed to a Dr«Ken*
A Well, they are handling cars coming off,
golng m o the d u » e r . •«> t M t .tuff, M 0 o » »» the
trMi.poet.tton yard you .re building up t l - freight.
p « . . n » r trains, out. of oo.l for the hill .nd ot cetera.
* In the Barney » r d 1. It » o e . . . r y for th-»
tB handle cargo. that would 0. « l t . h l n g fro. on. tra«c tc
another, anything of this Kind?
A well, they do run them out of different
tracks, y«a» *l r '
, 1, there any engine power or loeouotlv.
power over in the Barney Tardt
A go, air. four hu*> crew, put theu on ‘he
hill and tie them down.
4 Are there en, Interlocking e w l M h e . or
algnela required over In the Berney lt»r<3?
A Ho, elr.
^ And do you know approxlnately how aany
track, they h.v. In the Barney lardf
A “5 .
q And how many thay have In the CT fard?
A Roughly in the neighborhood, X would .ay,
.tout 300, counting lndu.trl.1 . W i n g . - » « t .tuff.
, Nnw, in ob.ervlng the work th»t goe. on
in th. two yards, would you .tat. whether or not « » — •
L L 1
2.4
24 i
r , s. Lancaster - D ire c t 7 3 7
a
15
lb
ln the CT T-rd, or th. worK in the Barney » * . » » « *•
the wore difficult or harder work?
A I have alwaya found the CT Yard to be the
T Kno* -- I never did work up on the
hardeat work. I don t know
hill up there.
, What la It in the OT Tard that you have
„b..rv«l or don. that "o u W M ‘slffer* nt °r
M T d e r than t v / w o r * In the Barney n r d l
W . BSUTONt We object to that. He atated
that ha never warKed ln the Barney yard.
t h e WITNESSt T h *t U ^lsht;■
THE COURTi I don't thin* he can qualify.
IT h. doe. not Know what they do In the B«-ne,
Y.rtl he c a n 't aay that he doe. a o - t h l n g that
la harder than that, W * nooAf.
MR. MOCDY x All right.
17
18
19
•JO
>1 I
22 I
22
21
m -• T ». — ~ iai of -
Barney « r d over the year* 1 ~ « 3T, t . U » In S - r a l
ahat function, are carried ~ t b , the - —
in that yard. 1
A On the Barney Yard?
4 Yea, air. I
A w e n . they handle th. - 1 “ U P»t
1
R. S. Lancaster - Direct 7 5 8
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on the hill, carry it down to the dumpers te dump It to
go into the holds of the snips. I have seen them handle
a whole track of oars and seen them numerous tints just
handle one car at a time.
A And tell us how they do it. Describe the
manner in which they carry it.
A If they have sufficient slack in the out
on the hill they have to pinch back on the car in order to
pull the pin to carry them down.
14 All right, sir. And by what method do
they know which car to send down?
A Well, they have numbered boards up there
that tells them what tracks they are going to run them
off of.
1
q And normally how many care would bo
moving at any one time in the Barney yard?
A Well, they have got three different
dumpers there. They would be moving three different
places, Pier 5 and north and south aide of Pier 6.
q Do these cars move from the same general
area to these piers?
A Oh, I would say yea, air.
* What are some of tha functions carried on
In the CT Yard that are different from these in the Barney
Yard?
6 M
I
R. L. Lancaster - Direct 7 5 9
W ell, malting up o f your time f r e ig h ts .
2 your passenger tr a in s , cu ts of co a l fo r the h i l l , aeucing
3 your cars in s ta tio n order and such s t u f f as th a t.
1
!
Q What work i s done in the CT Yard th at
•') requ ires p h y sica l a c t i v i t y ?
1
H A What did you say, p h y sica l a c t i v i t y ?
I
■1 7 Q Yes, s i r . P h ysica l movement and p h y sica l j
•f
h work on the part of the brakeman. what does he have te
y do?
i 10I ■ A You mean the oar r id e r s ?
{ i i■IsF
Q He, s i r . X am ta lk in g about the brahman
‘ 12
1
in the CT Yard. What are seas of the th in « i th a t he has
13 to do th a t requires him to do m nual work?
14 A W ell, ty in g the brakes, holdin g back on the
15 tr a c k s , and pinching the oars back, or pinching them down
IH
to g e t them sta rte d i f th ey w on't r o l l . omee th e y g e t
17 the slack, to g o t the p in .
18
Q Do you do th is in the CT Yard?
19 i A No, s i r .
20 1
Q What are some o f t t m th in gs — you were
2!
|
speaking o f the Barney Yard, app aren tly, then. M y
22
i question is to the CT Yard. What are some o f th e th in g i
I
23 1
you as a brakoaan do in the or Yard th at require m nual
24 j work?
25 1
| ̂ .... W ell, ty in g of brakoa and clim bin g upon the
7 6 0
*• E. Lancaster - Eiraofc
top Of the oar, and th a t aort of a t u f f .
2 Q WHon you t i e hroieee le th le u e u e lly ju ^ in g
3 or standing s t i l l T
1 A
W all, a t t la a s standing s t i l l . The
.) j “ J O rlty ° f the t i n . you .r e
<:
! Q T h . m ajority e f the time w l r t « ,v ln t?
7 A Yba, s i r .
N Q 1» i t eore d i f f i c u l t to t i e . bwuc.
}) standing s t i l l or nosing?
10 A
I would .a y .ow ing. i t 1 . T . deogorMB.
11 Q 1>0 you a t t u r n fin d a .lto h e e th a t m M
12 | to oparata ?
13 A Yas, s i r .
14 !
II
Q You do?
15 A Ybs.
lo
Q Do you hava to usa sons p h yslo al fo rca a t
17 ! tin a s in order to turn aw ltehas?
IX i
i
A Yba, s i r , you do.
19 |
1 3 What about opanlng K n u ckle.. ia 4t
20
*) 1
neoassary any tin e to usa any ohvaiAJii - ___ky p a y s ic a l fa re s to open knueitlasf
JL i
. ... 1
A O ccasio n ally th ay ara hard to opan.w ---■ — V|fVU*
Sonatinas i f th* fcnuekla pin i s gona ona nigh t drop out on
you and you hava to put I t back: In.
21 I
j Q What d0 W have to do m th is casa. You
i — What a ra you sp aa ia ,* o f ?
kit (c (n.I
J
R* B. Lancaster - Direct 761
8
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11
12
18
14
15
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A Put the knuckle back in .
3 What does i t weigh?
A L if t the pin end shove I t in .
3 * What does i t weigh, the knuckle, th a t is ?
A
1 •
Roughly, I would say, about 75, 8o or naybe
3 Are you requ ired to handle th is by yourse lf
90 pounds.
<
a t tines?
A Mo, you are not a c tu a lly required to do th a t
IT th e re i s a ea r in sp ec to r around.
3 Let as aslc you t h i s . i s i t qu ite o ften
done by brajeemn in the CT yard?
A Oh, yes, s i r .
Q I t i s . You are not requ ired to do i t but
you do I t as p a r t of your work there?
A Yes, s i r .
Q How about d e r c l le r s . Do you handle any
of th a t work?
Tes, s i r .
What i s th a t?
Well, I reckon they weigh anywhere fre n 80
o r 90 pounds. i t takes two hands to take than o ff and
two hands to put then on.
3 What do you do. Can you describe i t ?
A Ju s t ny l i f t i n g i t o ff of the tra c k tc where
U 7 ^
A
Q
A
762
i I t won’t d e r a i l the oar, and one# you are c le a r and f in is h
I using th a t tra c k , rep lace i t .
I
t 4 Is i t hard work?
1 j A Well, i t i s hard to a c e r ta in e x te n t, yes,
5 s i r .
H 4 how long were you braking?
A X was p romot ed in ’49.
8 : 3 You wore promoted to what, conductor?
9 A To conductor in ’49.
10 4 And you hare bean conductor since *49?
11 A Tbs, s i r .
12 4 T e ll us what the d u tie s of a conductor are?
I
15 A Well, talcing your orders from your
11 superv iso rs in order to build up and asks up your t r a in s
15 th e way they want them, and th a t s tu f f .
4 Do you have to know the s ig n a ls in the yards
17 | you work in?
18 ! A Tea, a i r .
I
4 Do you have to couple hose, or la th a t
s t r i c t l y fo r the brajceasn?
A Tea, a i r , wa couple hose e sp e c ia lly on the
job th a t X am on r ig h t now.
4 What, from your observation , would be the
e f fe o t , i f any, on the s a fe ty of the yard to d o v e ta il th i
ro s te r s of the Barney la rd with the CT Yard ?
R. B. Lancaster - Direct
25
----------------- .
R. E. Lancaster - D irect 753
1 i * On the s a fe ty fa c to r?
2
1 ^ On the sa fe ty fa e to r to put the nen e f f
:$ fch* Barm y Yard and merge them w ith the men on the CT Yard.
1 A
j Oh, 1 would say i t would Just take t l m f w
5 them to lea rn
I the yard and such s tu f f as th a t .
H Well, what e f fe c t would i t have on the
7 employment inl the two yards?
8
l
A Well, i t would be tak ing p a rt of ny
9 s e n io r i ty away from me I f they dovetailed the l i s t .
10 4 And what would i t do, as f a r as you know,
11 to your Job. Do you know i f i t would a f fe c t you?
12 A I imagine i t would.
13 "•i In what way?
14 ' A Well, I would probably drop down low on the
15 j l i a t . I an working a d ay ligh t Job now. I nay have to ge
U S back afternoon* or night* or something lik e th a t .
17 4 And since you have been on the ra ilro a d you
18 j
i have been working by a s e n io r i ty sy s tem have you not?
19 | A Yes, s i r .
20 4 Do you fe e l th a t is a valuable system to
21 work by on the ra ilro a d ?
22 | A Yes, s i r , I c e r ta in ly do.
2:i 1
1
4 Why?
24 A Well, i t g ives me my llv llhood and helps
2f> me to seek b e tte r Jobs and th a t s tu f f .
R» E. L&netittr - Dlrtot 7 6 4
Q And dots i t do the i i m th in g fo r the m n
on the Barney Y*rd. i f you did not have the s e n io r i ty
system, would you be secure in your r ig h ts to a j e t th a t
you worked up to r
A I w ouldn't th in k so .
-5 Yeu would not?
A Mo.
Wl. MOODY: All r ig h t , s i r . That i s a l l .
YHS COURT: Cross-examine.
* • WCRTHUWTOBi Norfolk and Western
Railway has no questions, Your lo n e r .
TBR COURT: A ll r ig h t . We avoid th a t
p rob les one more t in e .
CROSS •ZXAKDUYION
BY m . BALLER:
Q Ju s t a few questions, Mr. Lancaster.
A I c a n 't hear you, s i r .
Q I said I will just ask you a few gusstleas.
YU COURT: D on't be lieve th a t , I* .
L ancaster. He i s going t e be here as as you
I
R. E. Lsnosster - Redirect
769
i
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17 !
1 8 !
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A » » , » l r , i f thay dovatallad tha ro a ta r .
« That would . a n , would i t no t, th a t tha
aen la the GT Yard end the m b aM«. «
*•" ov#r the Berne 7 yard
-ould hoth b . try in g , ! , t h . . . ^ t0
o r th a t , wo*d both * . try in g to t r a m . 1^ ^ „
®*n ^ 6oth yards a t t h e ___ «.«* ” tn * t i e s ; would I t not?
A l a s , s i r , i th in k so .
Q *OW> U n , t t*“ t d i f f e r e n t , or U i t
d if f e re n t fro * what you r e f tn e d w.J w re fe rred to when you s ta r te d out
— avsrybody th a t . a . oa th a t ^ a ta r t .d ^ . t th .
i O o tto . Of t h . a a o lo r lty l u t , you - n > U n ,t
th a t eo rreo t?
A Th* t Is r l^ h t .
3 And you war. batng tra ln a d aa a now aan
and you did not . t a p In to a .raw and taka aowbody a laa
job who had b ~ n on t h . job fo r m , yaara , d u youf
1 onir ¥h*n you *«a working tha w rtra
board and the mus was o ff .
Q So th is would bo <»U.te d if fe re n t! would
i t no t, f r o . tha s i tu a tio n th a t tha o thar a tto rn ay Juat
polntad out to you in ra fa r r ln g to t h . M rnay Tkrd m a
ooalhC omra b u y in g aomaon. on a oraw who had b ~ n t h a n
m a f yaara. I t la an t Ira ly d l f r a r a n t f r a .
ooalng on and a ta r t la g on tha bottom of tha laddor?
* loa* a i r , Z aaa th a dlffaw anoa, -------------------
(o / /
R * E* ^ncaster - Redirect 770
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*•*• MOODY: All r ig h t , s i r . Thank you.
IKE COURTi Stop down.
(Witness excused.)
m . MOODY: can Mr. Lancaster be excusedf
the COURT: As f a r as I aa concerned.
Nr. L ancaster.
M, Y. LOSE, ca lled as a w itness by and on
behalf of the united T ransporta tion union, being f i r s t duly
sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fo llow s:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOODY:
4
A
4
A
4
S ta te your naas and address, p lease .
M. Y. Lusk.
And your address.
1624 Mora Lane, Northwest, Roanoke, V irg in ia .
Mr. Lusk, do you p re se n tly held a p o s itio n w ith
the tta ited T ransporta tion union?
A Yds, s i r .
Q What p o s itio n do you hold?
A General chairnan of the United
T ransporta tion Union rep resen tin g t r a in se rv ice enployee^
(i > 2 X
M. Y. Lusk - DirectM. Y. Lusk - D irec t jj±
1 road brakeman. yard brakemen, and yardman of the Norfolk
2 and Western proper.
3 Q Now, did you p r io r to holding th i s p o s itio n
4 work re g u la rly on the ra ilro a d ?
r> A S ir?
H Q Did you hold a p o s itio n working on tkn
1 ra ilro a d before holding th is p o s itio n ?
H A Tea, a i r .
9 * And what was your work?
10 A 1 was a road brake man and road conductor
11 on the Pocahontas D iv ision , Norfolk and Western Railway.
12 Q Where did you go to work?
13 A At w illiam aton. West V irg in ia , March 19,
14 19^7 j as a road brakenan.
15 '4 And did you belong or Join a lo c a l lodge
1H a t th a t t in e ?
17 A YWa, s i r .
18 : Q Which lodge did you jo in?
19
!
A At th a t time Lodge 533 of the Brotherhood of
20 | R ailroad Trainmen, now Local 655 of the un ited T ransporta tion
21 Union.
22 4 Where is th a t located?
23 A The c h a rte r of th i s looal la located a t
24 B lu efie ld , West V irg in ia .
25 And d id you la te r hold o ff ic e in th a t
L 11 3-
I
M. T. Lusk - D irect j j 2
1 lo ca tio n ?
2 A Yes, a i r .
4 Q T a il us what o fr io e s you h a v s held in th a t
1 lo ca l?
5 A S hortly a f te r becoming a road brageman,
<> through th e process of a premature re s ig n a tio n of the
• , se c re ta ry of the lo c a l grievance committee, I was e lec ted
8 to the o ff ic e o f s e c re ta ry of the lo c a l grievance committee,
9 charged w ith the re s p o n s ib il i ty of a s s is t in g the d ir is io n
to lo c a l chairman in handling the lo ca l grievances and
11 problame on the west end of the Pocahontas D iv ision , through
12 h is a u th o rity .
w 10 Q What o ther p o s itio n did you hold?
14 A Then l a t e r I was appointed - - I mean.
15 e le c te d , ra th e r , se c re ta ry of than Lodge 553. I was l a t e r
IB e lec te d v ic e - lo c a l chairman with the same d u tie s th a t I had
17 held as s e c re ta ry of the lo ca l committee. Then la te r as
#
lo c a l chairman of th a t lo c a l.
19 Q When were you e lec ted as general
2 0 j chairman fo r the R a w Railway proper?
21 1 A X assumed o ff ic e on January 17# 1967# a f te r
22
I
an e le c tio n th a t had been consummated in Rcvamher 1966.
20 |
Q What area does th is p o s itio n cover?
24 j
1
A The regions on the Rorfolk and Western
25 Railway c o n s titu tin g the A tlan tic and Pocahontas Regions.
i
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7 7 3
3
4
2
M. Y. Lusk - Direct
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which run westward f ro a Norfolk, V irg in ia to C inc in n a ti,
and Coluabua, Ohio, northward to Hagerstown, m ry lan d ,
southward to Ita lian , North C arolina and Winston-Salem,
North C arolina. southwest to Norton, V irg in ia on the
Pocy D ivision.
Q What a re the d u t ie s , your d u tie s as
general chairman, your p o e itio n as general chairman?
* To rep resen t the t r a in se rv ice employes I
have c ited in th e i r co n trac tu a l questions and enforce and
in te rp re t the agreement as between the united T ransporta tion
Union Trainmen Committee and th e Norfolk and Western
Railway p roper.
Q What about the general committee of
adjustm ent. Do you have any connection with t h i s , and i f
so , what i s i t , and what i s your p o sitio n ?
A I am chairman of the general committee of
adjustm ent.
A That i s a committee th a t is comprised of
lo ca l chairmen from various s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s on the
A tlan tic and Porahontaa Regions, s t o t a l of which th e re are
tw enty. And I p reside over th i s committee when In
se ss io n , and whan i t i s not in session speak fo r and ac t
aa the general committee.
4 Aa e p a r t of your d u tie s in th i s p o s itio n ,
d a you handle wage negotiatenna o r co n trac t __
t 1 5 *.
I
\
With rwferanoe to the HMney Tlrd in Norfoilct
A Yes, s i r .
^ And Local 550, th a t is the CT Yard in
Norfolk?
M. T. Lusk - Direct
774
A Yes, s i r .
Q And in dea ling w ith th ssa two yards haws
you shown any prafaronca whatsoever, or to your knowledge
has the JttV shown any preference between the men on the
Barney yard ro o te r and those on the OT Yard ro s te r?
A None whatsoever, as f a r as I know,
a Sxeuse «e. 00 ahead. Nobody whatsoever.
Would th a t include working conditions th a t you — have
endeavored to obtain the sane working conditions fo r m
on e i th e r yard or on both yards?
| A Yes, s i r . The m m as any o ther yard on
the M h W ays te n th a t I rep resen t.
^ Mow, you have been on sev e ra l yards in
your workj have you not?
A Yba, a i r .
<4 And to your knowledge le there anything
unusual about tha arrangement th a t we have here in Norfolk
with re ferenee to having a Barney Yard w ith a separa te
ro a te r f ro a the c la s s i f ic a t io n yard?
A That i s not unusual a t a l l , a i r .
A in daaling w ith th i s here , from your
(r H 3.
775M. Y. Lustc - D irect
1 experience and observation , i s th e re a va lid foundation
2 o r basis fo r th e re being two ro s te r s in th i s ea sef
A Well, the reason fo r the two ro s te r s , of
i | course, i« p r io r to mj t in e . But th is i s not a t a l l
’* j um“ u a l * z t u * Pul« th a t th ere are d if fe re n t s e n io r i ty
« | ro s te r s fo r d if fe re n t yards.
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<4 Mow, I would lik e to r e fe r fo r a few Minutes
to the a i r hose ru le and ask you i f you have had any
contact w ith or took p a r t in n eg o tia tio n s w ith the a i r
hose ru le fo r the Barney Yardasn in Norfolk?
11 j A Ybs, s i r .
12 | * Could you t e l l u s , p lease , what you r e c a l l
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as f a r as your n eg o tia tio n s are ooneerned.
14 A °n assuming o ff ic e of general eh a lrren .
,s | thiB ■***•»• was a c tiv e ly handled by s y se lf w ith th e
1(> | a s s is ta n c e of sons o f f ic e rs of Local, then 974, now 1809.
r 1 And we were able to acquire the a i r hose a rb i t r a ry fo r the
Barney Yard brakenan and conductors, e f fe c tiv e Much 1,
19 j 1968.
4 And fro * your knowledge of the e f fo r t s to
21 obtain the a i r hose ru le fo r the Barney la rd own, has every
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reasonable e f fo r t been aade by the un ited T ransporta tion
21 Union and you as general ohalrean to ob tain t h i s as soon
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as p o ssib le fo r the Barney yard nan?
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KK* VUPQMi__We object to that as leading.
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M. T. Lusk - Direct 776
THE CCHJHT x Oh, I th in k he esn say i f he
i s the nan th a t did i t , i f ha knows of any da isy
in i t or wants to oaks any exp lanation of i t , ha
can t e s t i f y to i t .
I overru le your o b jec tio n .
A (Continuing) Would you repeat the questionT
ST m. MOODYt
Q B asica lly , can you s ta te whether or not
every reasonable e f fo r t has been aade by the un ited
T ransporta tion Union, and you as general ohairsan , to
ob tain th e a i r hose ru le fo r the Barney Yard nan as soon as
you could?
A lb s , s i r .
Q Did you nego tia te and work continuously
during the t in s th a t you have been general ohairsan in an
a tte n p t to ob tain th is u n t i l i t was obtained?
A Conaansurate, of course, w ith ay o th er d u tie s
as general ohairasn . N atu ra lly I could not devote ay
e n tire t i a e to th i s . i
Q Z d o n 't naan continuously , but over a
period of t ia e ?
A Tea, s i r , p e r s is te n t ly .
Q Is th e re anything unusual about th e re
tak ing a period of t in s to ob tain soae new co n trac t r ig h t
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