Trial Transcript Volume 6

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IIJ THE UN I TED STI\TES D I STR I CT COURT

FOR TllE EASTERN D I STR I CT OF NORTH CAROL I I.lA

RALEIGH DIVISION

RALPH GINGLES, ET AL., )
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B1-201-CIV-5

RUFUS EDMISTEN, ETC.,
ET AL.,

ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL"

B1-1066-Crv-5

JAMES B. HUt.lT, LJ R.,
ET AL.,

JOHN .J. CAVANAGH , EF

ALEX K. BROCK, ETC.,
ET AL.,

ETC.,

AL.

82-5 45-C I V- 5

DEFENDANTS.

TRIAL BEFORE

THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON PHILLIPS

THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T. DUPREE, 1,R.,

THE HONORABLE W. EARL BRITT

PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2tlcl
lJ R.bich. ionh c.Etro 27arr



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997

AT RALEIGH: MONDAY, AUGUST L, 198]

VOLUME 6 OF 8

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

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MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor lArB

u Rrbhh, Honn C..oaln. 2nrt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I\PPEARANCES

ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

LESLIE J. WINNER, ESQUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER
SU I TE 7 30 , EAST I NDEPENDENCE PLAZA
951 SOUTH INDEPENDEI.ICE BOULEVARD
cHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202

ARTHUR .J. DONALDSON, ESQU I RE

BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER. 6 KENERLY

]09 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144

ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQUIRE
P. O. BOX 321+5
GREENSBORO, NORTH C/IROLINA 27402

LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, II.IC.
1O COLUI4BUS CIRCLE
SUITE 2O3O
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019

ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

JERRIS LEONARD, ESQUIRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREET, N..W.
V,JASHINGTON, D.C. 20006

JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602

H P. O. Bor 2ltGg
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PBECISION HEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IABLE OF CONTENTS

W I TNESS D I RECT CRO.SS. RED I RECT RECROSS EXAM

JOSEPH S. FARRELL

By MR. LEONARD r002_1u34 1062-1u63

BY MS. WINNER r0l+-1u62

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS

MARSHALL ARTHUR RAUCH

BY MR. LEONARD r06+-1u78

tsY MS. GUINIER r0Zy-1U87

l06r-1u64

EXHIBITS

NUMBE R

DE FEI.IDANT

DESCRIPTION MARKED RECEIVED

50 EDITORIAL FROM RALtsIGH TIMES 1U29 IO]U

51 TDIToRIAL FRoM nnurlen rIMEs r00z t00l

F P, O.8or 2tlGit
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FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 2:00 P.M.

THIS CAUSE CAME

THE HOI,.IORABLE J.

AUGUST t, tggl,

ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL BEFORE

DICKSON PHILLIPS, ON MONDAY

AT RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA.

JUDGE DUPREE: GOOD AFTERNOON.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: GooD AFTERNooN.

I BELIEVE WE HAVE ONE EVIDENTIARY MATTER THAT WAS

LEFT PENDING--A DEPOS ITION.

MS. i^/INNER: YES, SIR. ON YOUR DESK

YOU WILL FIND IN FRONT OF YOU COPIES OF ALL THE DEPOSITIONS

THAT WE HAD OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. I HAD PREVIOUSLY COPIED

THE WHOLE DEPOSITIONS EXCEPT FOR SENATOR MILLS'DEPOSITION.

AT' THIS TIME I DO NOT OBJECT TO INTRODUCING ALL

oF ALL. OF THEM EXCEPT FOR SENATOR *raar, ALTHOUGH I WOULD

POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE.SUBSTANTIAL PARTS OF TERRY

SULLIVAN I S !'/HICH HAS TO DO WITH CONGRESSIoNAL REDISTRICTING

AND ARE IN THAT VEIN TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. I DON'T MIND THEIR

BEING IN THE RECORD.

AS TO SENATOR MILLS I DEPOSITION, HI S DEPOSITION

WAS TAKEN ON TWO DIFFERENT MATTERS. ONE WAS HIS ROLE ON THE

LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE AND HOW THE LEGISLATURE WAS

DEALII'IG WITH LOCAL LEGISLATION. AND THE OTHER PART OF IT

I-1AD TO DO WITH HIS PERS-ONAL FEELINGS ABOUT SINGLE MEMBER

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or ltrtt!

Ll e.l.llh. Nodh c.rotn. 216l I



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.361e 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DISTRICTS. WE FiAD OFFERED IN ONLY THOSE PARTS THAT HAD

TO DO WITH HOW THE LEGISLATURE DEALT WITH LOCAL BILLS, AND

I DO OBJECT TO THEIR INTRODUCING THE OTHER PART WHICH IS

A WHOLE TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTER.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONIT YOU DO THIS? WH

DONIT YOU WRITE A FORMAL OBJECTION AND FILE IT IN THE

RECORD IDENTI FYING SPECI FICALLY THOSE PORTIONS TO I^/HICH YOU

LODGE AN OBJECTION. AND I^'E WILL RULE SPECIFICALLY ON IT.

BUT I DONIT THINK WE OUGHT TO HOLD UP THE PROCEEDINGS HERE.

b/E h,ILL GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC RULING ON IT SO YOU WILL KNOW

THE WAY I{E V I EI^J I T.

MS. WINNER: ALSO, BEFORE THIS CAME UP

I HAD ALREADY MADE THESE COPIES. AND I DID NOT COPY THE

wHoLE DEPOSITION. SO ALTHOUGH IT IS tN THE RECORD, yOU DO

NOT EACH HAVE THE WHOLE MILLSI DEPOSITION BEFORE YOU RIGHT

NOW.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS IN THE RECORD. AND

IF YOU WILL, MAKE VERY SPECINIC THE PORTION OF THE DEPOSI.

TION THAT YOU HAVE OBJECTIONS SO THAT WE WILL KNOW EXACTLY

WHAT YOU ARE TALK I NG ABOUT. I.JE W I LL RULE ON I T.

NOW, WHEN yOU FILE YOUR OBJECTION AND MR. LEONAR

SEES IT, IF HE WANTS TO FILE A VERY BRIEF RESPONSE_-I HOPE

WE DONIT NEED TO GET INTO FULL SCALE BRIEFING ON IT. BUT

IF HE WANTS TO FILE JUST A VERY BRIEF RESPONSE TO IT, PUT

THAT II'I THE RECORD TOO. WE I^/ILL RULE ON IT.

F P. o. lor 2alcs
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ALL RtGHT, MR. LEONARD.

I'1R. LEONARD: THE STATE CALL.S JT)SEPH

FARRELL.

( WHEREUPON,

JOSEPH S. FARRELL

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOWS: )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 2202 P.M

BY I',IR. LEONARD:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE, AND TELL THE

COURT WHERE YOU LIVE?

A MY I.IAME IS JOSEPI] S. FARRELL. I LIVE IN CHAPEL

HiLL, NORTH CAROLINA.

a WHAT rs YouR occuPATroN? 
'

A PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC LAW AND GOVERNMENT, UNIVER-

SITY OF NORTH CAROLINA A; CHAPEL HILL.

A I CALL YOUR ATTENT I.ON, MR . FARRE LL, TO

DEFENDANTSI EXHiBIT 51. I BELIEVE YOU HAVE A COPY OF IT IN

THE MATERIALS THAT ARE BEFORE YOU. I ASK YOU IF YOU CAN

IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT?

(DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NO. 51 WAS MARKED

FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

A IT IS A COPY OF AN EDITORIAL FROM THE RALEIGH

T I MES---

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

- 
P. O Bor Atd

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a 51?

A 51?

A IT IS YOUR CURRICULUM VLJAE.

A OH. HIS IS BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION AND SOME

OF THE PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITIES THAT DESCRIBES MY BACKGROUND.

MR. LEONARD: THE DEFENSE WOULD OFFER

EXHIBIT 51 INTO EVIDENCE. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE PLAINTIFF

HAS NO OB!'ECTION TO IT.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED I.,/ITHOUT

O BJ ECT I ON.

(OTNEruONNTSI EXHIBIT NO. 51 WAS RECEIVED

IN EVIDENCE. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. FARRELL, TELL THE COURT VERY BRIEFLY WHAT

YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND IS AND YOUR PROFESSIONAL

EXPERIENCE?

A I HAVE A BACHELOR OF LAWS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF

NORTH CAROLINA, CHAPEL HILL; A-MASTER OF LAWS FROM YALE

UNIVERSITY. I JOINED THE FACULTY OF THE INSTITUTE OF

GOVERNMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY IN JUNE OF 1964. MY FIELD FOR

THE LAST 15 YEARS HAS BEEN GENERAL COUNTY GOVERNMENT. THE

INSTITUTE ALLOTS SUB.JECT MATTER FIELDS AMONG ITS FACULTY IN

MUCH THE SAME WAY THAT MOST ANY UNIVERSITY DEPARTMENT DOES.

MY FI ELD I S TO BE CONCERNED I,.,I TH COUNT I ES--THE

STRUCTURES OF COUNTIES, GOVERNMENTAL POWERS OF COUNTIES.

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P. O. eor 2,416l!

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

77q.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AS A GENERAL PROPOSITION, I HANDLE MATTERS THAT DO NOT

FALL WITIIIN THE SPECIAL CONFIDENCE OF OTHER MEMBERS OF THE

FACULTY.

I AM RESPONS I BLE FOR A B I ENN I AL SCHOOL FOR NEI.I

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, TWO ANNUAL CONFERENCES FOR COUNTY

ATTORNEYS. I AM THE AUTHOR OF WI1AT I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I

THE STANDARD TEXTBOOK ON COUNTY GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLI

WHICH IS NOI^/ IN ITS THIRD EDITiON AND WILL SOON BE IN ITS

FOURTH EDITION.

DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENC

HAVE YOU HAD E)(PER I ENCE DEAL I NG WI TH THE LEG I SLATiJRE?

A BEGINNING IN 1969 I.WAS CHIEF CONSULTANT TO THE

LOCAL GOVERNMENT STUDY COMMISSION CREATED BY THE GENERAL

ASSEMBLY OF 1967. THAT COMMISSION WAS CHARGED WITH

INVESTIGATING THE ENTIRE STATUTORY LAW GOVERNING LOCAL

GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA.

AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT WORK, I FIRST ASSISTED

THE COMMISSION IN PRESENTING JTS LEGISLATIVE PACKAGE TO THE

1969 GENERAL ASSEMBLY. THAT PRODUCEDJ-ONE OF THE RECOMMENDA

TIONS THAT GREW OUT OF THAT COMMISSION WAS A RESTRUCTI.IRING

OF THE METHOD FOR HANDLING LOCAL BILLS IN THE GENERAL

AS S EMB LY.

AS PART OF THAT RESTRUCTURING PROCESS, I WAS

CONSULTANT TO THE COMMITTEES IN BOTH HOUSES THAT HANDLED

LOCAL BILLS IN THE t69_SESSION, AGAIN IN THE t7l SESSION,

F P, O. Eor 2atalt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AGAIN iN THE '73 SESSICN, AND I BELIEVE Iti 175. SINCE

,75 I TRADED OFF WITH MY COLLEAGUE/ DAVID LAWRENCE, AND I

GO EVERY OTHTR SESSION AND HE GOES bVERY OIHER SE5SIUN.

A DO YOU CONTINUE TO CONSULT WiTH ANY COMMITTEES

OF THE LEGISLATURE WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL LEGISLATION?

A I DID NOT IN 198]. I DiD IN 1981. I EXPECT I

PROBABLY WI LL AGAIN IN 1985.

A YOUR BiOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND AS YOU HAVE SUB-

MITTED IT iN EXHiBIT 5L LISTS THE VARIOUS PUBLICATIONS THAT

YOU AUTHORED OR CO-AUTHORED OR EDITED THAT RELATE TO LOCAL

GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLII.IA?

A YES.

a Do You KNoh, How THE BOUNDARY LINES FOR COUNTIES

IN NORTH CAROLiNA l^/ERE FIRST DRAWN?

A YES. THERE IS NO GENERAL LAW PROCEDURE FOR

EITHER CREATING A COUNTY OR FOR CNAIIETruE ITS BOUNDARIES.

THE LINES OF COUNTIES NNI ORAWN BY A SPECIAL ACT OF THE

LEGISLATURE.

THE FIRST COUNTY BOUNDARIES WERE DRAWN BY THE

LORDS PROPRIETORS IN 1670 WHEN THE ALBEMARLE COUNTIES WERE

SET UP AS SEPARATE PRECII..ICTS. A NUMBER OF THE COUNTIES WER

CREATED BY THE ACTS OF THE COLONIAL ASSEMBLY. SINCE THE

REVOLUTION, OBVIOUSLY, THE COUNTIES HAVE BEEN CREATED BY AN

ACT OF THE LEGISLATURE.

THE METHOD BY WIJICH COUNTY BOUNDARIES ARE CHOOSE

F P, O.8ox 2Eltl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAS BEEN PRIMARILY AN AITEI4PT TO MAKE IT CONVENIENT FOR

PEOPLE TO GET TO THE S[:AT OF GOVERNMENT AND TO DEFINE

GEOGRAPHICAL AREASTHAT CORRESPOND AS WELL AS ONE CAN TO

COMMUNITIES OF INTERESi, PEOPLE THAT GENERALLY KNOW EACH

OTHER, THAT ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER, THAT HAVE SOMETHING

IN COMMON.

ANY LINE DRAWN ON A MAP IS GOII.IG TO BE TO A

GREATER OR LESSER EXTENT ARBITRARY UNLESS YOU HITPPEN TO BE

FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE NA-TURAL PHY S I CAL BOUNDAR I E S. THE

BOUNDARIES OF OUR COUNTIES--MANY OF THEM DO FOLLOW NATURAL

PHYSICAL BOUNDARIES. OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RIVERS,

MOUNTAIN R IDGES, OCEAl.l SOUNDS, WHATEVER, DON I T. BUT 0N THE

WHOLE THEY DO TEND TO FOLLOW COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST.

i SUPPOSE THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT I COULD CITE OF

THOSE ARE THE ORIGINAL ALBEMARLE COUNTIES, PASQUOTANK,

CAMDEN, CURRITUCK, CHOWAN. THOSE COUNTIES--IF YOU LOOK AT

THE MAP, YOU WOULD THINK WHY DO WE NEED A COUNTY TI]AT lS

ONLY 10 MILES WIDE AND 25 MILES LONG. IT DOESNIT TAKE YOU

LONG TRAVELING ACROSS THE SURFACE OF THE LINE TO DISCOVER

THAT THOSE BOUNDARIES ARE NOT ARBITRARY, BUT THAT THE

COUNTIES CONSIST ESSENTIALLY OF RIDGES OF HIGH GROUND

CULTIVATED, LIVABLE AREAS DIVIDED BY RIVERS AND RIVER SWAMP

UNTIL FAIRLY RECENTLY IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO

GET FROM ONE COUNTY TO ANOTHER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN

I WAS A CHILD, THE ONLY WAY TO GET FROM ELIZABETH CITY TO

H P. O. Bor i,tlG!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CAMDEN couNl'Y v'lt\s ro cRoss WHAT t^,AS KNowN L-ocALLy AS THE

G R EAT F LOAT I I..IG ROAD .

THE CAMDEN COUNTY COURTHOUSE AS THE CROW FLIES

IS LESS THAN A MILE OR PROBABLY ABOUT A MILE FROM THE

PASQUOTANK COUNTY COURTHOUSE. IT MIGHT AS WELL BE 10 MILES

AWAY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO GET THERE I,JAS TO CROSS A SWAMP

THE STATE HAD BUILT AS AN EXPERIMENT A ROAD ACROSS MICHELLE

ISLAND WHICH SEPARATES PASQUOTANK AND CAMDEN THAT I^/As

SUPPoSED To FLoAT. THE PROBLEM WAS IT DIDN'T FLoAT.

WHENEVER YOU HAD A GOOD BIG RAIN--MY FAMILY

LIVED iN THE SOUTHERN PART OF CAMDEN COUNTY. h/E WOULD GO

OVER TO VISIT AUNT SELMA EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, AND IF YOU

HAD A GOOD BIG RAIN YOU LITERALLY DROVE ACROSS A BRIDGE THA

WAS DEFINED ONLY BY THE RAILINGS. AS A CHILD IT I^JAS QUITE

AN EXCITING THING TO BE AS ALMOST AS IF YOU WERE WALKING ON

THE WATER BECAUSE THE WATER WOULD 
'.'"*O"Y 

BE SOMETIMES

SIX OR EIGHT INCHES DEEP COMPLETELY ACROSS THE ROAD.

MY POINT IS IT WAS.DIFFICULT TO GET FROM THE

SUBTLE PARTS OF CAMDEN COUNTY TO THE SUBTLE PARTS OF

PASQUOTANK COUNTY AND WAS WITHIN MY MEMORY.

OTHER COUI'ITIES.-THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A

NATURAL BOUNDARY. AN EXAMPLE OF A STRAIGHT LINE DRAWN ON

THE MAP WOULD BE ORANGE COUNTY. WHEN ORANGE COUNTY WAS

CREATED LONG BEFORE THE REVOLUTION, IT I^/AS THE FRONTIER. THE

SETTLEMENT WAS AT HI LLS-BOROUGH. THE CENTER OF THE COUNTY

F P. O. 8or ,1.:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IVAS BAS I CALLY H I LLSBOROUGH, A VERY I-ARGE COUNTY, LARGELY

BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING ESSENTIALLY BUT WOODS AND

WILDLIFE IN MOST OF IT, THE SETILEMENT BEING AROUND I]ILLS_

BOROUGH.

ASSETTLEI'lENTDEVELOPED,PIECESOFTHECOUNTY

WERE CHOPPED AND NEI.I ONES SET UP. ONE AREA OF SETTLEMENT

THAT OCCURRED FAIRLY EARLY ON WAS PITTSBORO. SO THE

SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY WAS LOCKED OFF ORANGE AND

ERECTED AS CHATHAM COUNTY ABOUT 1760, I BELIEVE. THAT LEFT

THE REST OF IT.

LATER ON AS THE NORTHERN AREAS BEGAN TO BE

SETTLED, PERSON COUNTY AI.JD CASHWELL COUNTY WERE CHOPPED OFF

THE TOP AND EECAME SEPARATE COUNTIES. THE CENTERS OF

SETTLEMENT THERE WERE YANCEYVILLE AND ROXBORO, BASiCALLY

IN THE CENTER OF THE AREA--STILL ARE. AGAiN, LATER THE

wESTERN PARTS OF ORANGE WERE DIVIDE; OFF, FIRST INTO

GUILFORD COUNTY WITH TNT CTruTEN OF SETTLEMENT BASICALLY AT

GREENSBORO. LA'TER THE EASTERN PART OF GUI LFORD COUNTY WAS

CONVERTED INTO ALAMANCE. TIIE CENTER OF SETTLEMENT THERE WA

BURLINGTON. AND THE LAST PART OF THAT PROCESS WAS WHEN

DURHAM COUNTY I.JAS CREATED ABOUT 1870 OR THEREABOUTS AFTER

THE RAILROAD HAD COME THROUGH DURHAM, DURHAM GREW UP'

DURHAM WAS A RAILROAD TOWN. THERE WAS NOTHING THEF:E BEFORE

TI-tE RAI LROAD.

AND THAT BECAME A COMMUI.IITY OF INTEREST IN THE

F P. O.8ox 2Elltg
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SET-UP. SO ORANGE COUNTY IS WHAT IS LEFT WITH ITS

COLONIAL CENTER OF SETTLEMENT BEING AT HILLSBOROUGH AND ITS

LATER CENTER OF POPULATION CENTER OF SETTLEMENT BEING AT

CHAPEL HILLO OF COURSE, AT THE TIME OF THE REVOLUTION

CHAPEL HILL DID NOT EXIST. CHAPEL HILL DID NOT EXIST UNTIL

THE UNIVERSITY WI.S ESTABLISHED THERE IN ABOUT I789, I

BELIEVE.

YOU CAN GO THROUGH A SIMILAR LITANY WITH

VIRTUALLY EVERY COUNTY IN THE STATE. THE BOUNDARIES WERE

DRAI./N FOR THE CONVEN I ENCE OF THE PEOPLE. THEY TENDED TO

DEFINE COMMUNITiES OF II..ITEREST THAT HAD GROWN UP BEFORE THE

COUNTY.

I THINK INTERESTINGLY THE LAST TWO COUNTiES..THE

LAST TWO COUNTIES, BY THE WAY, WERE CREATED IN 1911, HOKE

AND AVERY. SO THE MAP WAS FLESHED OUT BY 1911.

OCCURRED IN

HAS THIS LI

AND HOKE.

IN 1911.

THE LAST I'IAJO.R CHANGE I N COUNTY BOUNDAR I ES

1959. IF YOU WILL LOOK ON THE MAp, MOORE COUNT

TTLE APPEI'iDAGE THAT STICKS DOWN TOWARD CUMBERLAN

THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PART OF HOKE COUNTY, CREATED

AGAIN, IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE MAP YOU WILL SEE

THE FORT BRAGG I,IILITARY RESERVATION COVERS THE ENTIRE--

VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE NORTHERN PART OF HOKE AND EXTENDS INTO

CUMBERLAND. THE ROADS THAT CROSS FORT BRAGG WERE OBVIOUSLY

CLOSED AFTER IT BECAME_USED AS A MILITARY BASE. IT WASNIT

F P. O. Bor a'ttag
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

TOO SAFE TO BE DRIVINIG ALONG THE ROADS AND DODGING

ARTILLERY SHELLS. SO YOU COULD NOT GET FROM THE hIORTHERN

PART OF HOKE COUNTY iO RAEFORD I,JITHOUT GOING ALL THE WAy

AROUND THROUGH FAYEI'TEVILLE OR GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH

CARTHAGE AND COMING BACK DOWN.

IT WAS VERY INCONVENIEI'IT FOR THE F'EOPLE I^IHO

LIVED THERE. SO IN 1959, WtTH EVERyBODyTS CONSENT, THE

NORTHERN TIP Of' HOKE WAS ADDED TO MOORE.

BUT OTHER THAN THAT, THE BOUNDARIES THAT YOU SEE

ON THE MAP WERE--HAD I.IOT ESSENT IALLY BEEi..I CHANGED I N ANY

SIGNIFiCAI.IT DEGREE SINCE 19I1.

A WHAT ROLE DO THE COUNTIES PLITY IN THE DELIVERY

OF STATE SERVICES?

A AN INCREASING--WELL, HISTORICALLy---

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: ( INTERPOS ING) ANE YOU

GO I NG TO QUAL I FY TI- I S GOOD EXPERT A; AN EXPERT?

MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I

TENDER MR. FARRELL AS AN EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT OF LOCAL

STATE GOVERNMENT.

MS. WINNER:

GOVERNMENT OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT?

IS THAT LOCAL AND STATE

MR. LEONARD:

LOCAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN

MS. WINNER: NO OBJECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: HE IS QUALIFIED WITHOUT

F P. O.8or 2tl(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OBJECT ION IN THE MANNER IDENT I FI ED BY COUNSEL AND HI S

EVIDENCE WILL BE RECEIVED IN THAT LIGIlT.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A THE QUESTION, MR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

FARRELL, t^,AS---

ALREADY RECEIVED WILL BE TREATED

( INTERPOSING) THAT

IN THAT LIGHT.

BY MR. LEONARD:

WHAT ROLE THE COUNTY PLAYS WITH RESPECT TO THE

DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES?

FROM THE BEG I NN I NG, COUNT I E S I^'ERE CREATED AS

THE ADMINISTRATIVE SUBDIVISIONS OF THE STATE FOR Ti]E

DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES. IT IS INTERESTING--EVERY TIME

I GO TO THE LITTLE CAPITOL I CANIT HELP--I AM STRUCK BY THE

FACT THAT WHEN THAT WAS BUILT IN 1840 IT HOUSED ALL OF

STATE GOVERNMENT. IT WAS THE ONLY STATE OFFICE BUILDING

THERE WAS.

THE ENTIRE MECHANISM FOR THE DELIVERY OF SERVICE

PROVIDED BY THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA WAS DONE THROUGH

COUNTIES AND THROUGH THE PERSONS ELECTED AND APPOINTED AS

PUBLIC OFFICERS IN THOSE COUNTIES. THE STATE DID NOT EVEN

HAVE ITS OWN REVENUE COLLECTION MECHANISM. THE STATETS

MAIN SOURCE OF REVENUE I,JAS THE PROPERTY TAX THAT WAS

COLLECTED BY THE COUNTY SHERIFF AND SENT INTO THE STATE

TREASURER AND AN ANNUAL SETTLEMENT WAS MADE BETWEEN THE

SHERIFF AND THE STATE TREASURER.

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P. O. Bor 2tral

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PFECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

THE COURT SYSTEM IN THOSE C,AYS WAS--THE STATE,

COURSE, HAD SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES AND SUPREME COURT

JUSTICES WHO MET IN THE--IHE SUPREME COURT, OF COURSE, MET

IN THE CAPITOL. THE ENTIRE MECHANISM FOR ADMINISTRERING

JUSTICE IN THE STATE WAS DONE THROUGH LOCAL OFFICIALS, THE

SHERIFF, COURT OF COURT, SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES, THE

DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.

SO COUNTIES CONTINUE--THAT iS WHAT THEY WERE

ORIGINALLY SET UP FOR. THEY CONTINUE TO PERFORM THE HIS-

TORIC FUNCTIONS. THE COUNTY IS STILL THE PRIMARY MECHANISM

FOR THE DELIVERY OF EDUCATION, I.iEALTH, SOC IAL SERVI CES, LAN

RECORDS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAMS. I GUESS-

I .JUST COVERED ABOUT 9O PERCENT OF THE MONEY SPENT LOCALLY.

SO THAT IS ENOUGH OF THE LITANY--ELECTIONS.

ELECTIONS?

YES.

CAN YOU TELL US HOW NORTH CAROLINA COMPARES TO

OTHER STATES WITH RESPECT TO ITS RELIANCE ON THE COUNTIES

AS AN INSTRUMENTALITY FOR THE DELIVERANCE OF STATE SERVICES

EVERY STATE RELIES ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO A

GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE TO DELIVER STATE SERVICES. NORTH

CAROLINA PROBABLY IS ABOUT AVERAGE iN THAT SENSE ACROSS THE

NATION.

THERE ARE THREE BASIC MODELS OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT

WHICH YOU WILL FIND AROUND THE COUNTRY. NEW ENGLAND USES

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE TOWN AS THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCK FOR ITS COUNTY

GOVERNMENT. h,HILE THE NEI^/ ENGLAND STATES HAVE COUNTIES, THE

DO NOT HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF FUNCTION ANYMORE.

THE SECOND MODEL IS..OP.IGINALLY DEVELOPED, I

BELIEVE, IN PENNSYLVANIA--USES THE TOWNSHIP AS THE BASIC

ORGANIZiNG FUNCTION. YOU WILL FIND TOWNSHIP GOVERNMENT IN

PENNSYLVANIA, NEW YOR.K, OHiO, MICHIGAN. STATES OF THE OLD

NORTHWEST TERRITORY TENDED TO FOLLOW THE PENNSYLVANIA-NEW

YORK MODEL.

TIlE REST OF THE COUNTRY I.'ITH THE E.XCEPTIOT,I OF

LOUISIANA, WHICII WAS ALWAYS AN EXCEPTION, USES COUNTIES AS

THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCK. ALL OF THE STATES IN THE SOUTH-

EAST DO. VIRTUALLY ALL THE STATES WHICH I KNOW ANYTHING

ABOUT IN THE MIDWEST AND THE FAR WEST-.I AM SORRY-.THE FAR

WEST USE COUNTIES. WESTERN STATES TEND TO USE THE TOWNSHIP

THE NORTHWEST TERRITORY.

WE USE THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT MODEL, COUNTY

GOVERNMENT BEING THE BASIC MECHANiSM FOR THE DELIVERY OF

MOST OF THE GOVERNMENTAL SERVICES PROVIDED TO CITIZENS. AL

PORTIONS OF THE STATE ARE I,JITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF A COUNTY

THERE IS NO PART THAT IS NOT IN A COUNTY. VIRGINIA IS THE

ONLY STATE THAT DOESNIT FOLLOW THAT MODEL.

a I woulD LIKE TO ASK YOU TO FOCUS FOR A FEW

MOMENTS ON INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES IN NORTH CAROLINA.

HOW MANY INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES ARE THERE IN THE

F P. O. &r itrta,
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAL€IGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

STATE?

A DEPEND I NG ON IJOW YOU COUNT, YOU W t LL COUl.lT

EITHER 458 OR 474. IF YOU COUNT--YOU COULD COUNT HIGHER

THAN THAT. IF YOU COUNT ALL MUNICIPALITIES THAT EXIST ON

pApER, YOU MIGr-rT COME UP WITH AS MANY AS 500.

SOME OF THEM STILL EXIST ON PAPER. THE SITE HAS

BEEN LOST. I GUESS THE BEST EXAMPLE IS ANSONVILLE IN

ANSON COUNTY WI.IICH STILL EXIST AS FAR AS THE LEGISLATURE IS

CoNCERNED, BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THE SITE IS. SO YOU

ELIMINATE THE GHOST TOWNS. YOIJ COME UP WITH 474 THAT ARE

INCORPORATED AND ACTUALLY ETECT MUNiCIPAL OFFICIALS.

I F YO(J THEN ELIi.4INATE THOSE THAT DON I T ACTUALLY

PERFORM ANY FUNCTIONS SUFFICIENT TO QUALIFY THEM FOR

GASO L I NE TAX ALLOCAT I ON S FROM THE STATE, YOU COME DOI'JN TO

458.

a Now, oF THE 458, HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE A POPULA-

TION OF OVER 2r500 PEOPLE? THAT IS POPULATION UNDER 2r5OO?

A 357.

a AND HOW MANY HAVE A POPULATION OF OVER 50r000?

A EIGHT.

A WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION OF NORTH

CAROLINA RESIDES IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS?

A 57.3 PERCENT, THE HIGHEST IN THE NATION, BY THE

WAY.

A THERE HAS BEEN SOME TESTIMONY, MR. FARRELL, IN

F P. O. &r irtl(t
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THIS CASE ]'HAI'COUNTIES AIiE DECLINING WITH RESPECT TO'I-HEI

RELATIVE IMPORTANCE IN THE CITY, STATE, COUNTY, FEDERAL

REI.ATIONSHIP OF THE ADMINISTRATION OF GOVERNMENT AND THE

DELIVERY OF SERVICES.

DO. YOU HAVE AN

AND COUNTIES IN THE STATE

OR NOT THERE IS A DECLINE

GOVERNMEN T ?

OPINION WHEN YOU COMPARE THE CITI

OF NORTH CAROLINA AS TO WHETHER

IN THE IMPORTANCE OF COUNTY

AND IT IS THE EXACT

INCREASING IN IM-

A

OPPOSITE.

PORTANCE.

I DO HAVE SUCH AN OPINION,

IN MY OPINION COUNTIES ARE

GIVE THE COURT SOME EXAMPLES OF REASONS AS TO

WHY YOU HAVE THAT OPINION.

WELL, I CAN USE I'HREE FUNCTIONAL AREAS FOR

EXAMPLE. THE PAI'TERN HAS TENDED TO BE THAT SOME SERVICES

FIRST BECOME PROVIDED BY CITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE DEMANDED O

NEEDED BY PEOPLE WHO 
'-'UEI* 

URBAN AREAS. THE SECOND STAGE

OF THAT IS THAT PEOPLE WHO DONIT LIVE IN URBAN AREAS AND

HAVE THOSE SERVICES AVAILABLE, BEGIN TO WANT THEM.

THE FIRST STAGE iS COUNTY BEGINS TO PROVIDE THEM,

AND THE FINAL STAGE IS THAT THE COUNTY TAKES OVER THE

FUNCTION AND THE CITIES GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS ALTOGETHER.

I'IOW, THE THREE BEST EXAMPLES OF THAT ARE

LIBRARIES, HOSPITALS AND LAND FILLS--SOLID WASTE DISPOSALS.

LIBRARIES ORIGINALLY WE.RE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY PROVIDED BY

F P. O. Aor 2al{B
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CITIES, I SUPPOSE THE REASON BEING THAT BEFCRE THE DAYS

OF AUTOMOBILES, YOU COULDNIT VERY EASILY GET TO A PUBLIC

LIBRARY UNLESS YOU LIVED CLOSE TO IT. SO THEY TENDED TO BE

IN THE CITIES.

NOW I DON I T HAVE AN EXACT COUNT, BUT THERE ARE

VERY FEW MUNICIPAL LIBRARIES LEFT. THEY ARE ALL NOW COUNTY

LIBRARIES. HOSPITALS I'JERE ORIGINALLY I"IUNICIPAL FUNCTIONS.

THEY ARE NOW VIRTUALLY EXCLUSIVELY COUNTY FUNCTIONS. THE

MOST RECENT THING HAS BEEN SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL. NEARLY

EVERY CITY IS GETTING OUT OF THE LAND FILL BUSINESS AS

RAPIDLY AS IT CAN AI'ID THE COUNTY I S TAKING IT OVER.

SO THE COUNTIES ARE BECOMING--THEY ARE PROVIDING

MORE SERVICES THAT WE TRADITIONALLY HAVE THOUGHTOF AS BEING

MUNiCIPAL SERVICES AND ARE BECOMING MUCH MORE FREE STANDING

LOCAL GOVERNMENT UNITS IN THE BEST SENSE OF THAT TERM AS

CONTRASTED TO PURELY ADMINISTRATIV; SUBDIVISIONS OF THE

STATE.

SO I THiNK THE

SINCE--IN MY LIFETIME, AT

COUNTY ROLE IS GROWING--HAS BEEN

ANY RATE--MEASURABLE.

IES IN NORTH CAROLINA THAT HAVEARE THERE COUNT

NO INCORPORATED AREAS?

YE5, CAMDEN AND CURRITUCK.

A ARE THERE OTHER COUNTIES WHICH HAVE A SMALL NUMB

OR RELATIVELY SMALL GEOGRAPHIC AREA THAT IS INCORPORATED?

I DIDt!rT UT.tDERSTAND THE QUESTION.

n P. O. Bor 2elt(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ARE THERE COUNTIES THAT HAVE EITHER A SMALL

NUMBER OI= INCORPORATED AREAS OR SMALL GEOGRAPHIC AREAS

COMPARED TO THE ENTIRE COUNTY THAT ARE INCORPORATED?

YES. I HAVE COUNTED. WELL, TERRELL COUNTY, FOR

EXAMPLE, HAS ONE TOI^/N, COLUMBI A, A VERY SMALL TOWN. HYDE

COUNTY--I BELIEVE SWANN QUARTER IS THE ONLY INCORPORATED

TOWN IN HYDE COUNTY. AND THAT IS BARELY MORE THAN A CROSS-

ROADS. PAMLICO--THERE ARE A FEW IN PAMLICO. MOST OF THEM

ARE VILLAGES.-ALL OF THEM ARE VILLAGES.

IN THE FAR WEST MOST OR VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE

INCORPORATED MUNCIPALITIES IN THE MOUNTAINS ARE BASICALLY

VILLAGES. WE REALLY ONLY HAVE URBAN CONCENTRATIONS IN THIS

STATE I N THE SO-CALLED P I EDMONT CRESENT RUI.IN I NG FROM RALE I G

TO CHARLOTTE WITH SCATTERED EXCEPTIONS HITHER AND YON LIKE

FAYETTEVI LLE AND WI LMINGTON.

THE TYPICAL COUNTY HAS O*L OR TWO INCORPORATED

MUNICIPALITIES THAT ARE LARGE ENOUGH THAT IF YOU DROVE

THROUGH THEM YOU WOULD THINK YOU WERE IN A SMALL TOWN.

PROBABLY iN TERMS OF NUMBERS, AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE

INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES ARE SMALL ENOUGH THAT UNLESS

YOU SAW THE SIGN WHICH SAYS 'INOW ENTERING MOUNT PLEASANT,''

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WOULDNIT REALLY THINK YOU WERE IN MUCH OF

A TOWN.

A HOW DOES NORTH CAROLINA COMPARE WITH OTHER STATE

WITH RE.SPECT TO THE PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION THAT LIVES IN

F P. O. &r :,alGt
lJ Rd.alh. |€nh C.rok[ arcrr



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I NCORPOP.ATED VERSUS UN I NCORPORATED AREAS ?

IT IS THE HIGHEST IN THE COUNTRY--I-IVE IN

UNINCORPORATED AREAS. THAT IS, BY THE WAY, WHERE THE POP-

ULATION GROWTH IS OCCURRING AS WELL. THE PERCENTAGE OF

POPULATION IN THE STATE THAT LIVE IN INCORPORATED MUNICIPAL

TIES HAS BEEN ABOUT LEVEL FOR THE LAST--SINCE 1960. IT

GOES UP VERY SLiGHTLY.

THE GROWTH IS OCCURRING IN UNINCORPORATED RURAL

AREAS. THERE ARE SUBDIVISIONS SPRINGING UP ALL OVER EVERY-

WHERE.

A WHAT IS THE COMPARISON OF NORTH CAROLINA TO OTHE

STATES WiTH RESPECT TO THE ABILITY OF MUNICIPALITIES TO

ANNEX UNINCORPORATED AREAS?

A I THINK IT IS GENERALLY AGREED THAT THE NORTH

CAROLINA ANNEXATION LAW IS THE MOST LIBERAL IN THE COUNTRY

DEPENDING ON HOW YOU WANT TO USE TTINT TERM. AT LEAST IT IS

EASIER IN NORTH CAROLINA FOR A MUI..IICIPALITY TO ANNIEX

TERRITORY THAN ANY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY.

A NOW, DOES THE COUNTY PLAY ANY OTHER ROLE IN

NORTH CAROLINA OTHER THAN A PURELY GOVERNMENTAL ONE?

IN MY OPiNION, COUNTIES, PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE

WHO LIVE OUTSIDE THE lNCORPORATED LIMITS OF CITIES AND

TOWNS, THE COUNTY BECOMES ALMOST A, PART OF THE DEFINING

CRITERIA YOU USE TO SAY WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU ARE FROM.

IF YOU WERE TO ASK SOMEONE I,/HO GREW UP IN THE NORTHERN PART

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2ll(l
u R.arch. Nodh C.7Cril t76il



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX- ARIZONA

OF PASQUOTANK COUNTY TO SAY TO THEM, IIYOU ARE FROM

ELIZABETH CITY, ARENIT YOU?I' THEY WOULD SAY,'II CERTAINLY

AM NOT. I AM FROM PASQUOTANK COUNTY OR I AM FROM NEW LAND,I

THEY PROBABLY WOULD SPECIFICALLY SAY.

THE PERCEPTIONS OF WHERE PEOPLE BELONG TENDS TO

BE DEFINED BY WI.IAT COUNTY THEY ARE FROM. PEOPLE FROM CAMDE

COUNTY ARE VERY DISTINCT ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT

FROM PASQUOTANK OR THEY ARE NOT FROM CURRITUCK COUNTY. THEY

ARE FROM CAMDEN COUNTY. AND IF YOU ARE FROM CAMDEN COUNTY,

THAT IS THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN BE FROM BECAUSE THERE IS NO

TOWN THERE. YOU CERTAINLY ARE NOT FROM ELIZABETH CITY.

THE COUNTY, THEN, BECOMES-.IT IS ALMOST A CHICKE

AND AN EGG ARGUMENT, WHETHER THE COUNTY CREATES THE

COMMUNITY OR THE COMMUNITY CREATES THE COUNTY. I THINK

THERE IS A LITTLE OF BOTH THERE.

,NCE THE POLITICAL SUBDi,,,,O* BOUNDARIES ARE

DRAWN, PEOPLE THEN TEND.TO USE THOSE BOUNDARIES AS DEFINING

THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO ORGANIZE THEMSELVES. EVERY--WELL,

FOR EXAMPLE, EVERY RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION WITH WHICH I HAVE

ANY FAMILIARITY USES COUNTIES TO DEFINE ITS DIOCESES OR

CENTERS OR ITS CONFERENCES OR ITS ASSOCIATIONS OR WHATEVER

THEY ARE CALLED. THEY DONIT DRAW FOR THEIR PURPOSES

ARBITRARY LINES ON THE MAP. THEY WILL DEFINE THE DIOCESE

AS A COLLECT I ON OF THE FOLLOI^J I NG COUNT I ES OR CENTERED I N

THE COLLECTION OF THE FOLLOWING COUNTIES.

F P. O.8or iitas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

CIVIC CLUBS TEND TO ORGANIZE THETR DISTRICT OR

REGIONAL ORGANIZATIONS USING COUNTIES AS THE BUILDING

BLOCKS. FRANCHISES FOR BUSINESSES, LIKE, I GUESS A COCA-

COLA BOTTLINC FRANCHISE, IF IT IS A FAIRLY RURAL AREA, WILL

BE IHAT "YOUR FRANCHISE C.OVERS THE FOLLOI,JING COUNTIES."

SO, THE COUNTY BECOMES SOMETHING OTHER THAN A

PURELY POLITICAT. SUBDIVISION. IT BECOMES ALMOST THE

SOCIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON THAT SORT OF PERMEATES THE WAY

PEOPLE ORGANIZE THEMSELVES IN THE STATE AND PUT THEMSELVES

TOGETHER IN SMALL GROUPS TO DO THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER,

IN ADDITION TO GOVERNMENT.

EARLIER YOU INDICATED YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY. TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT YOUR

EXPERIENCE IS WITH RESPECT TO THE HANDLING OF LOCAL BILLS

AND WHAT THEY ARE AND I^JHAT THE LEGI SLATIVE PROCESS I S,

.A A LOCAL BILL IS DEFINED--I DEFINE IT--AS A BILL

WHICH APPLIES TO ONE OR MORE SPECIFICALLY NAMED COUNTIES OR

ONE OR MORE SPECIFICALLY NAMED CITIES. MANY STATES HAVE

CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS THAT MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO

ENACT LOCAL BI LLS-.LOCAI- LEGI SLATION.

THE STATE PROHIBITION AGAINST THE USE OF LOCAL

BILLS BEGAN WITH THE JACKSONION SUSPICION OF STATE LEGIS-

LATORS. IT WAS FILT THAT STATE LEGISLATORS WERE CORRUPT

AND THEY TENDED TO TRY TO RESTRICT THEIR POWERS. OUR LOCAL

BILL GREW PAR.TLY OUT Of THAT AND PARTLY OUT OF THE MOVEMENT

F P. O. lor iltG
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN THE l8BO IS WHEN C ITIES FELT-.MA.JOR CITIES IN THE

COUNTRY_-FELT OPPRESSED BY THEIR STATE LEGISLATURES.

NORTH CAROLINA HAS A CONSTITUTIONAL RESTRICTION

ON THE USE OF LOCAL BILLS, BUT IT IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE ONE.

IT DOESN'T COVER ANYTHING THAT AMOUNTS TO ANYTHING.

SO, OUR LEGISLATURE IS FREE TO PASS BILLS THAT

APPLY OI']LY TO WAKE COUNTY OR ONLY TO THE CITY OF RALEIGH OR

ONLY TO ORANGE COUNTY, AND iT DOES SO IN GREAT NUMBERS.

EARLY IN THE CENTURY YOU V.iOULD FIND THAT AN

ACTUAL MA.JORITY OF THE BI LLS ENACTED IN ANY GIVEN SESSION

OF THE LEGISLATURE WOULD BE LOCAL BILLS. THE PERCENTAGE

HAS DECLINED OVER THE YEARS. IN 1983, IT IS ROUGHLY 20

PERCENT. BUT THAT IS STILL A VERY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER.

BASICALLY 20 PERCENT OF THE LEGISLATIVE OR 20 PERCENT OF

THE TOTAL BILLS INTRODUCED WERE LOCAL BILLS. A SLIGHTLY

GREATER PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL BILLS ENACTED ARE LOCAL

BiLLS.

so, THE PROCESS OF-ENACTMENT OF LOCAL LEGISLA-

TION IS VERY MUCH A PART OF THE ANNUAL LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

a BEFORE YOU GO INTO THE PROCESS, I ASK yOU TO

GET THE ACTUAL FIGURES FROM THE MOST RECENT SESSION OF THE

LEGISLATURE. WHAT WERE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS

THAT WERE INTRODUCED?

A THROUGH .JULY lBTH--I STOPPED COUNTING AFTER

JULY 1BTH, BECAUSE I FIGURED IT I^JAS LONG SINCE TIME FOR

F F. O. Bor 2alB
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THEM TO GO HOME. SO I STOPPED COUNTING. BUT AS OT- JULY

lBTH, 2,178 BILLS INTRODUCED, OF WHICH 425 WERE LOCAL. IT

IS ABOUT 20 PERCENT.

A HOW MANY OF THE LOCAL BILLS WERE RATIFIED BY THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

A 295 AS OF THA-T DATE.

A HOW MANY OF THE GENERAL LEGISLATIVE BILLS WERE

RATIFIED?

A 5'+6 AS OF THAT DATE.

NOW TELL THE COUP.T BRIEFLY ABOUT THE PROCESS BY

I^/H I CH THE LEG I SLATURE HANDLES LOCAL B I LLS.

A THE PROCESS IS DE:SIGNED TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO HANDLE A LARGE NUMBER OF LOCAL BILL

I.JITHOUT TAKING UP A GREAT DEAL OF ANYBODY I S TIME. I T DOES

THAT BY FOUR UNDERSTANDINGS. YOU WONIT FIND THESE WRITTEN

DOWN ON THE STATUTE BOOKS ANYWHERE. BUT THERE ARE FOUR

UNDERSTANDINGS IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO

DO THAT. .r

THE FIRST UNDERSTANDING NOW IS THAT USUALLY.-AND

I WOULD SAY ALMOST ALWAYS.-A LOCAL BILL IS NOT INTRODUCED

UNLESS A LOCAL GOVERNING BOARD HAS ASKED FOR IT TO BE

INTRODUCfD. SO THERE WILL TYPICALLY BE A RESOLUTION FROM

A BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OR CITY COUNCIL ASKING THEI

REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS TO INTRODUCED AND GET PASSED

A LOCAL BILL

- 
P. O.601 2tlB

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.!571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE SECOI'ID ASSUMPT ION I S THAT ALL MEMBERS OF TH

LEGISLP,TURE WHO REPRESENT DISTRICTS IN WHICIl THAT COUNTY OR

THAT CITY IS LOCATED ARE CONSULTED ABOUT THE BILL. IT IS

A SERIOUS BREACH OF LEGISLATIVE COURTESY TO INTRODUCE A

LOCAL BILL AND NOT TELL YOUR COLLEAGUE FROM THE SAME DISTRI

THAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT.

THAT GETS SORT OF FURTHER REFINED IN COUNTIES

THAT ARE IN, SAY, A SINGLE COUNTY DISTRICT WITH MULTIPLE

REPRESENTATIVES OR SENATORS. THERE ARE EASICALLY TWO

PATTERNS FOR CONSULTING LOCAL MEMBERS. SOME DELEGATIONS

FOLLOW THE UNANIMOUS CONSENT RULE. I^JAKE IS STILL AN EXAMPL

OF THAT.

IN WAKE COUNTY A LOCAL BILL WILL NOT BE INTRO.

DUCED UNLESS ALL MEMBERS AGREE TO IT. IN OTHER DELEGATIONS,

THE MAJORITY RULES. MECKLENBURG IS A TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF

THAT. A LOCAL BILL WILL BE iNTRODUCED IN MECKLENBURG AFTER

THEY HAVE CAUCUSED AND HELD A MAJORITY VOTE. AND THE

UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE MAJORITY WILL GO ALONG WITH IT

AND WILL NOT OBJECT. SO ALL MEMBERS ARE CONSULTED.

THE THIRD UNDERSTANDING IS THAT LOCAL BILLS ARE

EXPLAINED AND DEBATED IN COMMITTEE, NOT ON THE FLOOR. IT

I S VERY RARE TO SEE---

(INTERPOSING) BY THE FLOOR, YOU MEAN THE FLOOR

OF THE HOUSE?

THAT IS RIGHT.

F P. O,8or 2ttl!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a 0R THE SENA'rE?

A YES. IT IS VERY RARE TO SEE DEBATE ON LOCAL

BILLS ONI THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE UNLESS IT IS

A LOCAL BILL. THAT IS CONTROVERSIAL FROM A STATEWIDE STAND-

POINTT

YOU CAN EXPECT TO SEE A LOCAL BILL AUTHORIZING

LIQUOR BY THE DRINK TO HAVE BEEN DEBATED, AS IT WAS. BUT

THAT iS VERY RARE. IN A TYPICAL SESSION, NOT MORE THAN ONE

OR TWO, IF THAT MANY, ARE.

NOW, THE FINAL UNDERSTANDING IS THAT NORMALLY

LOCAL LEGISLATiON IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL FROM A STATEWIDE

VIEWPOINT AND THE MEMBERS WHO HAVE INTRODUCED IT TAKE FULL

POLITICAL RESPONSIBiLITY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF PASSING IT

SO IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE BILL. IS UNPOPULAR, THE PEOPLE

WHO INTRODUCED THE BILL ARE THE ONES WHO THE VOTERS ARE TO

GET upsET wrrH AND Nor rHE LEcls,-oir*a AS A wHoLE.

NOW, THOSE UNDERSTANDINGS MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO

HANDLE THE THINGS ON THE FLOOB BASICALLY BY A CONSENT

CALENDAR TECHNIQUE. LOCAL BILLS ARE ALWAYS FIRST ON THE

CALENDAR. THEY ARE HANDLED IN A ROUTINE ASSEMBLY LINE

FASHION.

EARLY IN THE SESSION, IF THERE IS NOT A GREAT

DEAL OF PUBLIC BUSINESS TO DO, EACH ONE WILL BE TAKEN UP

INDIVIDUALLY AND AT LEAST THE TITLE READ AND A SEPARATE VOT

HELD ON IT. AS THE SESSION PROGRESSES AND THE PUBLIC

F P. O.8or 2alal
LJ Rrboh. lrodh crrolrm 27!ll



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CALENDAR GETS LONGER, IT WILL BE FAIRLY TYPICAL TO PASS

THEM IN A BATCH.

a Now, MR. FARRELL, WHAT

RESPECT TO I^JHAT IMPACT THERE WOULD

LOCAL LEGISLATION--LOCAL BI LLS.-IN

COUNTIES IF THOSE COUNTIES WERE TO

DISTRICTS?

IS YOUR OPINION WITH

BE ON THE HANDLING OF

MULTI-MEMBER DI STRI CT

BE SiNGLE MEMBERED

A THE IMPACT WOULD BE BRINGING TO THE FLOOR OF THE

HOUSE LOCAL CONTROVERSY. THE RESULT OF THA-r WOULD BE, IN

MY OPINION, THAT FEWER LOCAL BILLS WOULD BE INTRODUCED. TH

EFFECT OF THAT I^/OULD BE THE ABI LI TY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

TO ENGAGE IN INNOVATIVE OR EXPERIMENTAL PROGRAMS OR TO

MODIFY STATEWIDE STRUCTURES WOULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY DIMINISH

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE FACT THAT THERE ARE

SOME LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS IN NORTH CAROLINA NOW THAT--THAT

IS, THE COUNTY IS SPLIT AMONG DIST;ICTS?

A YES.

CAN YOU GIVE THE GOURT SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT

HAS CREATED IN THE PAST SESSION OF THEPROBLEMS THAT

LEG I SLATURE?

PROBLEMS ALL ARISE FROM THE FACT THAT NOBODY

KNOWS W}1O REPRTSENTS THOSE PEOPLE AS A PRACTI CAL MATTER.

THREE BILLS FROM THE I82 SESSION I THINK ILLUSTRATE THAT

FAIRLY WELL. THE FIRST ONE WAS A LOCAL BILL THAT WOULD

HAVE EARMARKED--EARMARK THE INTANGIBLES TAX ALLOCATED TO

F P. O, Bor 2llc!
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PHECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

HENDERSON COUNTY TO BUILD A COURTHOUSE.

THE BILL WAS INTRODIJCED BY A SENATOR REPRESENTIN

THE DISTRICT WHO DiD NOT LIVE IN HENDERSON COUNTY. THE

BILL WAS OPPOSED BY TIlE HENDERSON COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISS-

IONERS. THE HOUSE MEMBER WHO DID RESIDE IN HENDERSON COUNT

OPPOSED THE B I LL, BUT I T WAS.-THE ARGUMENT I^/AS MADE THAT

THE SENATOR WHO---THE ARGUMENT I^/AS MADE THAT THE ENTIRE

DELEGATION, AT LEAST IN THE SENATE, THAT REPRESENTED

HENDERSON COUNTY SUPPORTED THE BILL BECAUSE PART OF

HENDERSON WAS IN A DISTRICT 14iTFI BUNCOMBE.

SO I'HE BUNCOI{BE DELEGATIOI.I SUPPORTED A BILL

WH I CI-I EARMARKED I NTANG I BLES TAX PROCEEDS TO BU I LD A

COURTHOUSE IN HENDERSON COUNTY. THE LOCALLY ELECTED--I^/ELL,

THE RESIDENT REPRESENTATIVE OPPOSED THE BILL. THE BILL, I

BELIEVE, PASSED. BUT IT WAS VERY CONFUSING AS TO WHO WAS

SPEAKING FOR HENDERSON COUNTY IN TTIAT CIRCUMSTANCE.

A SECOND EXO*'L' IS A BILL THAT DID NOT GET

INTRODUCED AT ALL. THERE IS A RURAL AREA OF GUILFORD

COUNTY KNOI.JN AS WALKERTOWN. THERE IS A SANITARY DISTRICT

THERE CALLED WALKERTOWN SANITARY DISTRICT--I AM SORRY--

FORSYTH COUNTY. THE PEC)PLE WHO LIVE IN THE WALKERTOWN

SANITARY DISTRICT ARE AFRAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GET

ANNEXED BY WINSTON-SA.LEM. AND SO THEY WERE INTERESTED IN

GETTII.IG INCORPORATED AS A MUNICIPALITY AS A SORT OF A

DEFENS IVE INCORPOP.ATION.

F t. O. gq 2tlB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE IN THE AREA

CALLED THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE

coNVENED AND ASKED, I'HO|J DO YOU GO ABOUT GETTING

INCORPORATED AS A TOI^/N? l./E ARE AFRAID WE ARE GOiNG TO GET

ANNEXED. II

IT WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR US TO ADVISL.

THEM BECAUSE THE NORMAL UNDERSTANDINGS DIDNIT APPLY. IT

TURNS OUT THAT THAT PAF..T OF FORSYTH COUNTY IS IN A DISTRICT

WITH GUILFORD COUNTY AND ALL THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THAT

DISTRICT LIVE IN GUILFORD COUNTY.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT IN THAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCE

WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A DEFENSIVE INCORPORATION. THE

DELEGATION WANTS TO KNOW WHAT DOES THE CITY COUNCIL OF

W INSTCN.SALEM THI NK ABOUT THI S. WELL, THE PEOPLE I,JHO

REPRESENTED THE WALKERTOWN AREA DIDNIT REPRESENT WINSTON-

SAI-EM. AND SO THERE WAS NO B I LL T TITEOOUCTO BY THE WALKER-

TOWN INCORPORATION THIS.'U"'O*. I CANIT TELL YOU WHY.

BUT WE EASICALLY COULD NOT TELL THEM WHO--WE DIDNIT KNOW

WHO TO TELL THEM TO TALK TO ABOUT GETTING THEIR BILL

I NTRODUCED.

THE THIRD EXAMPLE iS THE WAKE FOREST ANNEXATION.

OCCASSIONALLY A MUNICIPALITY WILL WANT TO ANNEX TERRITORY

THAT DOESNIT MEET THE STATUTORY STANDARDS FOR ANNEXATION.

IT IS NOT AT ALL UNUSUAL TO HAVE SPECIAL BILLS PASSED

ANNEXiNG SMALL AREAS TO EXISTING TOWNS.

- 
P. O. Bor 2tt(}

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE TOWN OF y{AKE FOREST WANTED TO ANNEX AN

AREA. A BI LL WAS INTRODI]CED IN THE HOUSE. THE HOUSE

DELEGATION REPRESENTED ALL OF WAKE COUNTY, INCLUDING WAKE

FOREST. IT WENT JUST FINE IN THE HOUSE AND GOT OVER IN THE

SENATE. THE SENATOR REPRESENTING THE TOWN OF WAKE FOREST

IS IN THE DISTRICT WITH FRANKLIN COUNTY AND I DONIT KNOW

WHO ELSE. I GUESS THAT IS THE 11TH DISTRICT--FRANKLTN AND

VANCE-.SEN|ATOR SPEED.

FROM HIS STANDPOINT, I DOUBT--WELL, I WOULDNTT

WANT TO SPEAK FOR HIM. BUT AT ANY RATE, WHEN THE BI LL CAME

UP IN THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON LOCAI- GOVERNMENT, SENATOR

SPEED WAS NOT PRESENT. WELL, THE WAY THE LOCAL BILL UNDER-

STANDINGS ARE, THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT THERE WAS INTER-

PRETED BY THE COMMITTEE AS A SIGNAL THAT HE DIDNIT SUPPORT

THE Bi LL. SO THE BI LI- GOT KI LLED IN THE SENATE.

THE HOUSE MEMBERS, ALL WTTO REPRESENT WAKE COUNTY,

THEN TRIED TO GET IT ON THROUGH THE SENATE. BUT IT WAS LAT

IN THE SESSION AND IT GOT ALL ^INVOLVED. THE BILL FAILED.

NOW, I,/HO CAN SAY WHETHER IT I'/OULD HAVE PASSED HAD THAT PART

OF WAKE COUNTY BEEN IN THE SAME SENATE DISTRICT WITH THE

REST OF THE COUNTY. THERE IS NO WAY i CAN TELL YOU THAT OR

NOT. BUT IT CONFUSED LINES OF COMMUNICATION.

MEMBERS THEMSELVES DID NOT KNOW I,'/HO WAS SPEAKING

FOR THIS PARTICULAR PART OF WAKE COUNTY. IT JUST UPSET THE

I^JHOLE NORMAL METHOD OF 
-OPERATION 

FOR THESE THINGS.

F P. O. Bor 2atGl
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a MR. FARRELL, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO

WHEIHER OR NOT NORTH CI.ROLINA HAS ANY ALTERNATIVE TO USING

CCUNTY BOUNDARI ES IN CONSTRUCTING LEGI SLATIVE DI STRI CTS IN

ORDER TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFiED TO

RELATING TO LOCAL-.THE HANDLING OF LOCAL BILLS?

NOT AS LONG AS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE THE

STRUCTURAL RELATIONSHIPS FOR THE DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES

AND THE DELIVERY Of' LOCAL SERVICES ORGANTZED AROUND THESE

BOUNDARIES. PARTLY BECAUSE WE DONIT HAVE MUCH OF A CONSTRAI

ON LOCAL BILLS, I.JE ALSO TEND TO HAVE VERY BROAD GENERAL

LAWS. WE DONIT U5E CLASSIFIED LEGISLATION.

THE SAME MUNICIPAL LAW, FOR EXAMPLE, APPLIES TO

CHARLOTTE AS APPLIES TO BAYBORO. IT THEN BECOMES NECESSARY

TO AND CERTAINLY DESIRABLE IN MANY INSTANCES TO MODIFY THAT

GENERAL LAW TO FIT A PARTICULAR LOCAL CIRCUMSTANCE.

. IF YOU RE-DO. LEGISLATIVE BOUNDARIES WITHOUT

REGARD TO COUNTY LINES, THERE IS A VERY STRONG--THERE WOULD

BE A TENDENCY THERE, I THINK, TO--WELL, IT JUST DISRUPTS

THE PROCESS.

A DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN

MARKED DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 5O? CAN YOU IDENTIFY FOR US

WHAT THAT EXHIBIT IS?

(DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NO. 5O WAS MARKED

FOR IDENTI FI CATION. )

RALEIGH TIMES EDITORIAL, JULY L5, I B3?

F P, O. Bor 2al6l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A CORRECT. IS THAT AN EXAMPLE, MR. FARRELL, OF

THE KIND OF PUBLIC REACTION THAT BECOMES EVIDENT BECAUSE OF

THE SPLIT OF PART OF A COUNTY OFF INTO ANOTHER LEGISLATIVE

DISTRICI'AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LEGISLATOR TO THAT

AREA THAT IS SPLIT OFF?

MS. I^/INNER: I OBJECT TO MR. FARRELL

TESTIFYING ABOUT WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF THE PERSON WHO

WROTE THE EDITORIAL. I OBJECT ALSO TO THE EDITORIAL,WHICH

I S HEARSAY.

MR" LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I

ASKED IF IT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE KIND OF REACTION.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.

THE I^JI TNESS : I THINK IT HIT IT RIGI-IT ON

THE HEAD.

MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. I OFFER IT NOT

FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE EDITORIAL, IF THE

COURT PLEASE, BUT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT KIND OF PUBLIC

REACTION COMES WHEN THE SlTUATION AND THE CONFLiCTS THAT TH

WITNESS HAS TESTIFIEL' TO ACTUALLY OCCURRED IN THE LEGIS-

LATURE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT WILL BE ADMITTED FOR

THAT PUP.POSE.

(OTTTNORNTSI EXHIBIT NO. 5O WAS RECEIVED

I N rv i oENCr. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

H P. O.601 2ttlB
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NOW, MR. FARRELL, SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT

TO THE RESIDENTS, THE VC]TERS AND THE RESIDENTS WITHIN

COUNTIES, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THOSE

INDIVIDUALS, GIVEN THE HISTORY YOU HAVE TESTIFIED TO, ARE

BETTER REPRESENTED INDIVIDUALLY IN THIS STATE IN SINGLE OR

MULTI:.MEMBER DI STRICTS IN THOSE COUNTI ES WHICH ARE CAPABLE

OF BEING SINGLE MEMBER DI STRICTS?

A IN MY OI'INION, THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY AS A

I,'JHOLE ARE BETTER REPRESENTED BY MULTI -MEMBER DI STR ICTS THAN

THEY ARE BY SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS.

AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THE

COUNTY ITSELF AS AN ENTITY OR AN AGENCY OF' GOVERNMENT?

A I DO. IT IS MORE EFFECTIVELY REPRESENTED WHEN

THE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS FOLLOW COUNTY BOUNDARIES.

MR. LEONARD:

IF THE COURT PLEASE?

MAY I HAVE .JUST ONE MOMENT

(pRusE. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A EARLIEF. IN YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU MENTIONED STATES

WHiCH EITHER DO NOT ALLOW OR RESTRICT LOCAL BILLS. DO YOU

KNOW, MR. FARRELL, WHAT PROPORTION OF THE STATES ALLOW OR

RESTRICT OR PROHI BIT LOCAL BILLS?

VIRTUALLY ALL. THE ONLY STATE THAT DOESNIT

RESTR I CT THEI'1 AT ALL I S MASSACHUSETTS. THE STATES THAT--TH

ONLY STATE THAT BEGINS _TO APPROACH NORTH CAROLINAIS RELIANC

a P. O. Bor 2l1(}
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457\
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ON LOCAL BiLLS IS I',lARYLAND.

MY RESEARCH TENDS TO INDICATE THAT NORTH CAROLIN

AND MARYLAND RELY VERY HEAVILY ON THEM, AND NORTH C/TROLINA

PROBABLY MORE THAN MARYLAND.

a DOES THE--SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO WAKE

COUNTY, MR. FARRELL, IS THERE ANY CONCLUSION THAT YOU DRAW

I^/iTH RESPECT TO THE LOCAL BI LL PROBLEM YOU TESTIFIED TO IN

THAT COUNTY BY VIRTUE OF THE URBAN AND RURAL SPLIT IN THE

COUNTY ?

YES. AS FAR AS NORTH CAROLINATS URBAN COUNTIES

ARE CONCERNED, WAKE COUNTY IS.-EVERY COUNTY IS UNIQUE, OF

COURSE. BUT WAKE COUNTY, I SUPPOSE, I S i"1ORE UN I QUE THAN

OTHERS. AS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A COUNTY THAT HAS FAIRLY

LARGE LAND ARfA, ONE MAJOR CiTY IN THE CENTER OF THE

couNTY Ar.iD A LARGE NUMBER OF SMALL TOWNS AROUND lr, ZEBULON

HOLLY SPRINGS, FUQUAY, W1KE FOREST nruO SO ON, AND A VERY

LARGE RURAL AREA, WAKE COUNTY TO START HAS BEEN HISTORICALL

A GOOD BIT OF TENSION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN RALEIGH

AND PEOPLE l^/HO LIVE IN THE SMALL TOWNS AND PEOPLE wHO DONrT

LIVE IN ANY TOWN AT ALL.

ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES THE WAKE DELEGATION HAS

EVERY SESSION IS BALANCING OFF THE INTERESTS OF THE URBAN

RESIDENTS IN RALEIGH, THE SUBURBAN RESIDENTS AROUND RALEIGH

l/,/H I CH ARE TEND I NG NOW TO BE THE PEOPLE FROM CARY--TEND TO

BE THE SPOKESMEN FROM THAT VIEI\/POINT, GARNER TO A LESSER

- 
P. O.601 l'tt6lt

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

EXTENT-.THE SMALL TOWNS ON THE PERIPHERY AND THEN I'HE RUR

AREAS IN WHAT WE USED TO CALL ''DEAD COUNTRY'I WHEN I \,.JAS

AT HOME--E/ICH MEMBER IN THE WAKE DELEGATiON REPRESENTS THE

PEOPLE IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY, THE NORTHERN

PART OF THE COUNTY AND IN THE CITY OF RALEIGH. AND A PART

OF THEIR REPRESENTING THAT COUNTY IN LOCAL LEGISLATION IS

TO WEIGH ALL OF THE COMPETING INTERESTS CONCERNED, THE

ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST LOCAL PROPOSALS, AND TO MAKE THEI

OWN JUDGMENT AND TO INTRODUCE SUCH LEGISLATION AS THEY THIN

IS GOOD FOR THE COUNTY AS A WHOLE.

a AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPI|'rION AS TO WHAT SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTING OF WAKE COUNTY WOULD DO TO THE PROCESS

THAT YOT,, HAVE TE S T I F I ED TO ?

WELL, IT WOULD ELIMINATE ANY INCENTIVE TO HAVE

ANY KIND OI- CONCENSUS IN THE DELEGATION BEFORE THE BI LL WAS

INTRODUCED. MEMBERS REPRESENTING A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT

WOULD OBViOUSLY BE COf.f Cf nrrf f O ONLY WI TH THE INTERESTS OF THE

CITIZENS \4I.IO ELECTED THEM.

IF YOU ARE IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT THAT IS

PREDOMINANTLY THE CITY OF RALEIGH, THEN THERE IS NO REASON

FOR YOU TO CONSULT THE INTERESTS OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE

RURAL AREAS, SMALL TOWNS OR WHATEVER. SO THE EFFECT WOULD

LIKELY BE THAT BILLS THAT INVOKED RURAL-URBAN CONTROVERSY--

AN ANNEXATION BILL IS A PRETTY GOOD EXAMPLE--WOULD BE

INTRODUCED. LETIS SAY_IF THE TOWN WANTED THE BILL

F P. O. &r l,tlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

INTRODUCED AND THE REPRESENTATIVE REPRESENTS THE TOWN, HE

WOULD INTRODUCE I'HE BILL.

HIS COLLEAGUES FROM THE SAME COUNTY, REPRESENTI

THE AREA THAT IS GOING TO BE ANNEXED, LETIS SAY, WOULD

OPPOSE THE BILL. NOW, IF YOU ARE SITTING ON A LOCAL

GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE IN EITHER HOUSE, THE LAST THING IN THE

WORLD YOU WANT IS MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION FROM THE SAME

COUNTY COMING IN AND ARGUING ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THIS

BILL. AND EVEN WORSE IS FOR THAT TO ERUPT ON THE FLOOR OF

THE HOUSE AND SPEND HALF AN HOUR LiSTENING TO PEOPLE ARGUE

ABOUT A WAKE FOREST ANNEXATION BILL ON THE FLOOR OF THE

SENATE. NOBODY HAS GOT TIME FOR THAT.

A MFi,. FARRELL, DO YOU HAVE AN oPINIoN AS To WHETHE

OR NOT THE LEGISLATURE AS A WHOLE, THE T'WO HOUSES, THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WOULD IN FACT FACILITATE ITSELF TO THE

RESOLVE OF THE NUMBER OF LOCAL BILL ISSUES WHICH MIGHT

INVOLVE CONTROVERSY?

A I DONIT THINK THERE IS ANY STRUCTURAL WAY TO DO

IT. YOU HAVE FEWER OF THEM.

MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL.

CROSS EXAMINATION 2:57 P.M.

BY MS. WINNER:

A DID WAKE FOREST HAVE STATUTORY AUTHORITY TO

ANNEX I^/ITHOUT GOING TO THE LEGISLATURE?

F P. O. Bor i6t.ll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.457 1

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NOT THE AREA THEY WANTED TO TAKE IN. THEY

WANTED TO ANNEX IT BECAUSE IT DIDN'T MEET THE STANDARDS

DEFINED IN THE STATUTE FOR INVOLUNTARY ANNEXATION.

A SO THEY WERE ASKING FOR AN EXCEPTION TO THE

S TATUTE ?

A YEs.

A THE STATUTE REFLECTING THE STATE POLICY ABOUT

ANN EXAT I ON ?

A YES.

A YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO OR A WHILE AGO THAT

THE COUNTY BOUNDARIES }.IERE PRIMARILY SET BY 1911; IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A YES.

A AI'iD THAT THEY REFLECTED THE COMMUNITIES OF

INTEREST WHICI-i EXI STED AT THAT TIME?

A YES.

A ARE YOU AWARE OF THE CURRENT LOCAL OF Ii\DUSTRY

IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A NO MORE SO THAN ANY OTHER CITIZEN.

A IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT INDUSTRIES--THAT SOME

I NDUSTR I ES-- I N NORTH CAROL I NA DRAW THE I R RAI./ MATER IALS FROM

PLACES THAT ARE NOT IN THEIR COUNTY?

A OH, SURELY.

A AND THEY ALSO DRAW THEIR EMPLOYEES--SOME

INDUSTRIES DRAW EMPLOYEES FROM AN AREA THAT IS LARGER THAN25

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFTICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE COUNTY?

P, YES.

A AND THEY ALSO DISTRIBUTED THEIR PRODUCTS TO AN

AREA THAT I S MUCH MORE---

A (INTERPOSING) OH, YES, SURELY.

a AND THAT IS MORE TRUE TODAY THAN rT WAS IN 1911?

A I WOULDNIT THINK THERE WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENCE

S IGNI FICANTLY.

A IT IS CERTAINLY MORE TRUE TODAY THAN IT WAS, SAY

IN IBTO?

A I VERY MUCH DOUBT THAT THERE IS MUCH DIFFERENCE

ON THAT. OUR FIRST INDUSTRY BASICALLY WAS SELLING PINE TAR

AND TURPENTINE. WE SOLD IT TO EUROPE.

THE BOUNDARIES OF COMMERCE HAVE ALWAYS GONI

OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF THE COUNTY AND BOUNDARIES OF THE

STATE AND THE NATION AS }IELL. 

.

A THAT PINE TAR WAS MADE FROM PINE TREES THAT

EXISTED IN THAT COUNTY, WAS IT NOT?

A SURE.

A ARE YOU AWARE ABOUT THE TRANSPORTATION IN THE

STATE IN ;983?

A SURE, YES.

A DO YOU AGREE THAT ALMOST ALL MAJOR AIRPORTS IN

THIS STATE ARE REGIONAL AIRPORTS THAT SERVE MORE THAN ONE

COUNTY?

Ff P. O. lor ,tt6it
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 87 6.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH MEDIA MARKET AREAS IN THE

STATE?

A I^JHAT IS A MEDIA MARKET?

A LET ME BREAK I T DOWN. ARE YOU FAI"II L IAR WI TH

NEWSPAF.ER MARKETING AREAS?

A GENERALLY, YES.

A WOULD YOU AGREE THAT MOST OF THE MAJOR NEI^,SPAPER

IN THIS STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND THAT MOST OF THE MAJOR TV STATIONS IN THE

STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?

A YES.

A DC) YOU AGREE THAT MANY MA.JOR SHOPPING AREAS IN

THE STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND iN FACT, THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE

CONTROVERSY IN THE LEGISLATURE THIS SESSION; WASNIT IT?

A I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE LOCAL SALES TAX BILL

THAT WAS P/'SSED IN 1983?

A YES.

A AND THE CONTROVERSY OF THE LOCAL SALES TAX BILL

OF HOW YOU WERE GOING TO DISTRIBUTE THAT HALF CENT OF

MONEY?

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P. O. Bor 2tl6

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YES.

THE REASON FOR THAT CONTROVERSY WAS THAT SO MANY

PEOPLE SHOPPED IN SHOPPING CENTERS THAT WERE NOT IN THEIR

COUNTY, IS THAT RIGHT?

A THE REASON FOR THE CONTROVERSY IS EVERYBODY WANT

THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY CAN GET. THE FI.CT IS THE

NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT COUNTIES THAT DONTT HAVE

MAJOR SHOPPING CENTERS ARE GREATER THAN THOSE WHO REPRESENT

COUNTIES THAT DO. AND THE MAJORITY WON ON THAT ONE.

IF PEOPLE SHOP..IF PEOPLE SHOP IN THEIR OWN

COUNTIES, THEN iT WOULD NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHERE YOU

DISTRIBUTED THE MONEY BY POPULATION OR BY THE AREA IT WAS

COLLECTED; WOULD I T?

WOULD YOT,i REPEAT THAT?

A

a

A YES. I WILL REPHRASE IT.

WHETHER TO D I STR I BUTE THE MONEY I ru }I-IT

THE CONTROVERSY WAS

AREA THAT THE

SHOPPING WAS DONE?

BECAUSE PEOPLE SHOP--THAT MANY

AREA THAN WHERE THEY LIVE--IN

RIGHT

OR IN THE AREA WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVED?

R I GHT.

AND THE REASON THAT TI.IAT WAS DIFFERENT WAS

PEOPLE SHOP IN A DIFFERENT

THE COUNTY I^JHERE THEY LIVE?

a

YES.

NOW, YOL' TALKED ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION OF STATE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SERVICES. IS IT NOT CORRECT THAT FOR AN EXAMPLE THERE

ARE MANY HEALTH SERVICES WHICH AF.,E DISTRIBUTED NOT ON A

COUNTY BY COUNTY BASIS?

A HEALTH AND MENTAL HEALTH HAVE MORE DISTRICTS

FOR THE DELIVERY SYSTEM, BUT ALL THE DISTRICTS ARE COMPOSED

OF WHOLE COUNTIES.

A BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, CHARLOTTE MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

SERVES NOT JUST MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A OH, I SEE. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR HOSPITAL

a RIGHT.

A YES. THEY TEND TO BE LOCATED IN CENTERS OF

POPULATION AND FREQUENTLY SERVE AN AREA WHICH IS NOT

NECESSARILY DEFiNED BY COUNTY BOUNDARIES.

A AND, FOR EXAMPLE, THE HOSPITAL IN ASHEVILLE

SERVES MANY OF THE MOUNTAIN COUNTIES?

A YES. THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE COUNTIES,

THOUGH THEY SERVING, TY'"O"' DONI T CONTRI BUTE TO I TS

SUF'PORT FROM TAX FUNDS, WHICH.iS A SOURCE OF MALJOR IRRITA'J

TION WHEN THE COUNTIES WHICH ARE SUPPORTING THE COMMUNITY

COLLEGES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HOSPITALS. THEY WANT THE OTHER

FoLKS To SHARE tN THE cosr, BUT THEY DoNrT, oF couRSE.

A AND FROM A PUBLIC POLICY CONCEPT, IT IS THERE-

FORE IMPORTANT FOR THE STATE TO LOOK AT A TOTAL PICTURE

AND NOT .JUST A PARTICULAR COUNTYI S PICTURE?

A YES, OF COURSE.

F P. O.601 2!t(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE COMMUNITY CCLLEGE SYSTEM,

YOU DONIT WANT TO JUST CONSIDER MECKLENBURG COUNTYIS ROLE

IN CENTRAL PIEDMONT COMMUNITY COLLEGE; YOU WANT TO CONSIDER

THE WHOLE REGION SERVICE AREAS?

A YES.

A GETTING BACK TO HEALTH, PLANNING I S DONE O1'I A

REGIONAL BASIS, NOT ON A COUNTY BY COUNTY BASIS?

A YES.

A THERE ARE MANY REGIONAL HOUSING AUTHORITIES;

ARE THERE NOT?

A I DONIT KNOW. I DONIT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PUBLI

HOUS ING.

A CERTAINLY MENTAL INSTITUTIONS SERVE A WHOLE

REGION OF THE STATE?

A YES.

a You TALKED ABOUT THE ..lUrric IAL SYSTEM AND THE

COURTS BEING ONE OF THE EARLY FUNCTIONS OF COUNTIES; IS

THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A IN FACT, JUDICIAL DISTRICTS ARE NOW THE

ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT FOR THE COURTS; ARE THEY NOT?

A IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE

CLERK OF COURT IS STILL ELECTED BY COUNTY. SO THE CLERICAL

FUNCTIONS OF THE COURT AND PR(}BATE FUNCTIONS ARE STILL DONE

BY COUNTY--BY THE CLERK. THE COURT FACILITIES EXCEPT WITH

F P. O. Bor 2ttca
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE EXCEPTION OF THE CI-IAMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT AND

THE COURT OF APPEALS ARE ALL PROVIDED BY THE COUNIIES. THE

ARE A FEW MUNICIPAL COURTROOMS, NOT VERY MANY, CORRESPOND-

I NGLY.

IN THE JUDICIAL DISTRICTS, THE PROSECUTORIAL

DISTRICTS ARE ALL SET UP BY AGGREGATIONS OF COUNTIES.

A BUT MANY OF THEI"I ARE AGGREGATIONS OF COUNTIES?

A YES. MOST OF THEM ARE.

A ANTD IN AS FAR AS THEY--AND THE SUPERIOR COURT

.JUDGES ARE ELECTED STATEWIDE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?

A YES.

A AND VACANCIES ARE APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR AND

NOT BY THE COUNTIES?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THE OPERATING DISTRICTS OF THE COURT ARE

DONE THROUGH THE LJUDICIAL DISTRTCTS ANO NOT THROUGH COUNTIE

A THE OPERATING COSTS OF THE FACILITIES ARE DONE

BY THE COUNTIES. EVERYTHING OTHER THAN THE COST OF PRO-

VIDING THE PH'/SICAL FACILITY AND SOME OF THE EQUIPMENT IS

DONE BY THE STATE.

A EDUCATION IS DISTRIBUTED BY SCHOOL DISTRICTS;

IS IT NOT?

A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT, TO BE PRECISE.

A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE UNITS. AND THERE ARE

APPROXIMATELY 140 SOME-ODD OF THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE

A P. O. Bor 26tB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

UNITS?

A YEs.

A H I GHER EDUCAT I ON I S CERTA I NI..Y DONE NOT BY

COUNTIES, BUT BY EITHER COMMUNITY COLLEGES OR THROUGH THE

UNIVERSITY SYSTEM?

A YES.

A . AND THAT IS NOT DONE THROUGH COUNTIES?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A TAX COLLECTIONS FROM THE STATEIS PERSPECTIVE--

TAX COLLECTION IS NO LONGER DONE BY THE COUNTIES; IS IT?

A THAT iS CORRECT.

A AT LEAST SOME POLICIES WHICH WERE MADE BY

COUNTIES 75 OR 100 YEITRS AGO ARE NOW MADE BY THE STATE; IS

THAT CORRECT?

A POLICIES?

A LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. LOCAL GOVERNMENTS

USED TO HAVE THEIR OWN AUTHORITY TO BORROW MONEY, AND NOW

THE STATE CONTROLS LOCAL MONEY BORROWING?

A IT DEPENDS ON HOW.-THEY NEVER HAD AUTHORITY TO

BORROW MONEY WITHOUT LEGISLATIVE SANCTION. THERE WAS A

TIME I^/HEN BONDS WOULD BE AUTHORIZED BY A LOCAL BILL

OCCASIONALLY. BUT IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO STATE CONTROL

OVER WHETHER YOU MAY EVEN HOLD AN ELECTION ON BONDS, YES,

THAT HAS CHANGED SINCE 1933.

A AND FUNCTIONS SUCH AS ROAD CONSTRUCTION AND

F P, O. Bor 2tld
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BRIDGE MAINTENANCE HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED FROM COUNTIES

TO THE STATE?

A YES; TOTALLY TRANSFERRED IN 7933.

A NOW, THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS THEMSELVES ARE

NO LONGER APPCINTED OR SELECTED BY THE LEGISLATURE AS THEY

\^/ERE 1O O YEARS AGO?

A LETIS SEE. ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO WAS 188]. IT

WAS A MIXED BAG. IN SOME COUNTIES, MEMBERS OF LOCAL

GOVERNING BOARDS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LEGISLATURE BY LOCAL

BILL IN THE PERIOD ROUGHLY FROM 1876 TO 1905. THAT WAS--.

a (INTERPOSING) THAT WAS MOST COUNTTES; WASNTT

IT?

A I DONIT THINK SO. YOU MAY HAVE BETTER INFORMA-

TION THAN I. BUT I DONIT BELIEVE IT WAS A MAJORITY.

a AT ANY RATE, ALL COUNTY COMMISSIONERS--NO

COUNTY COMMiSSIONERS ARE NOW APPOINTED BY THE LEGiSLATURE?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THE AMOUNT OF HOME RULE HAS CERTAINLY

INCREASETI IN THE LAST 20 YEARS?

A COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY IIHOME RULEII?

A CERTAINLY. THE LEGISLATURE NO LONGER PASSES

LOCAL BILLS FOR THE SALARIES OF THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS,

FOR EXAMPLE?

A CERTAINLY NOT AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO. YOU WILL

STILL ON A RARE OCCASICN SEE THAT.

A P. O. Bor 2ala3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a BUT THE COUNTIES DO NOT NEED TO GO TO

' LEG I SLATURE TO EI'IACT LOCAL B I LLS TO DO SUCH TH I NGS AS

SALAR I ES ?

A THAT IS CORRECT. THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THE

LOCAL GOVERNMENT--THE STUDY COMMiSSION--ATTEMPTED TO

ACCOMPLISH-.TO DECREASE THE RELIANCE ON LOCAL BILLS.

A AND THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THAT?

A YES, BY AND LARGE.

A FOR EXAMPLE, MUNICIPALITIES AND COUNTIES HAVE

AMPLE ZONING AUTHORITY AND DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO THE

LEGISLATURE FOR ZONING MATTERS?

A THAT IS GENERALLY--YES, THAT IS TRUE.

A AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, MUNICIPALITIES AND

COUNTIES CAN CHANGE THEIR OWN FORM OF GOVERNMENT I^IITHOUT

GOING TO THE LEGISLATURE AS THEY SO DESIRE?

A AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, iT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR

COUNTIES TO DO THAT. IT IS FAIRLY EASY FOR MUNICIPALITIES.

THE ONLY WAY A COUNTY CAN CHANGE IT LOCALLY IS

BY SUBMI TTING I T TO A VOTE. AND THAT I S CL'MBERSOME AND

EXPENSIVE. IT IS GENERALLY NOW-.YOT,l SEE RELATIVELY

INFREQUENT USE OF THAT.

A BL'T COUNTIES COULD CHANGE THEIR FORM OF GOVERN-

MENT BY LETTING THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE COUNTY VOTE ON

IT?

A IF THEY COULD CONSTRUCT WHAT THEY WANTED FROM

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE BUILDING BLOCKS THAT ARE PUI' IN THE STATUTE. BUT

THERE ARE A DISCRETE NUMBER OF BUILDING BLOCKS. YOU CANNOT

HAVE LESS THAN THREE, NO MORE THAN FIVE MEMBERS. IF YOU

WANT SEVEN MEMBERS, YOU HAVE GOT TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE.

YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE EITHER TWO-YEAR TERMS, FOUR

YEAR TERMS, STAGGERED FOUR-YEAF. TERMS, OR A COMBINATION.

IF YOU WANTED FOR SOME REASON SIX-YEAR TERMS, YOU HAVE TO

GO TO THE LEGISLATURE.

THERE ARE--EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE SOMEBODY WILL

COME UP WITH A NEW SCHEME THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO TRY OUT

AND IT I,/ON'T FIT IN THAT SO-CALLED HOME RULE BILL. THEII

YOU HAVE GOT TO GO GET YOUR LOCAL BILL.

SO THERE ARE LIMITS TO WHAT COUNTIES CAN DO TO

CHANGE THEIR FORM OF GOVERNMENT, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN

CHANGE.S THEY CAN MAKE WI THOUT GOING TO THE LEG I SLATURE?

A

a

CARRY I NG

A

a

A

MEAN WHO

a

A

a

YES.

DOES EACH COUNTY HITVE TO HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE

OUT I TS ADMI N I STRAT I.VE DUTI ES ?

NO.

IF YOU SUBDIVIDED A COUNTY---

(INTERPOSING) ITT ME ASK YOU IF BY THAT YOU

RESIDES WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THAT COUNTY?

THAT IS WHAT I MEANT.

BUT EACH COUNTY MUST HAVE A REPRESENTAT I VE.

EACH COUNTY--.

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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUL)GE PHILLIPS:

MORE QUESTION AND WE ARE GOING

( I NTERPoS I NG) nsK oNE

TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS.

ALL RIGHT.MS. WINI.]ER:

BY MS. WINNER:

A IF.\'OU SUBDIVIDE A COUNTY, WILL THAT COUNTY

END UP-.A COUNTY SUCH AS MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WHICH IS A

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT--WILL THAT COUNTY END UP WITH \,lUST

AS MANY REPRESENTATIVES?

I PRESUME SO.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS: LETIS TAKE A RECESS UNTIL

3:25 .

(TNE PROCEEDING WAS

TO RESUME AT 3i25

RECESSED AT }:10 P.M.

P.M.T THIS SAME DAY')

F P. O. Bor ,tal
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FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 1i25 P.M.

( WHERE UPON,

.JOSEPH S. FARRELL

THE WITNESS CN THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:)

CROSS- EXAMINATION 3125 P.M.
(RESUMED)

BY MS. WINNER:

A MR. FARRELL, SUBDIViDING COUNTIES WOULD NOT

INTERFERE WITH THE ABILITY OF RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO

OPEFIATE Ot.l THE BASiS oF COUNTIESi WOULD IT? SUBDIVIDING

COUNTIES IN THE LEGISLATURE?

A OH, NO.

A AND SUBDIVIDING COUNTIES IN ThE LEGISLATURE

WOULD NOI INTERFERE WITH THE ABILI;Y OF CIVIC CLUBS TO

ORGANIZE THEMSELVES ON A COUNTY14IDE BASIS; WOULD IT?

A NO.

A AND IT WOULDNIT INTERFERE WITH THE ABILITY OF

FRANCHISERS TO CONDUCT THEIR BUSINESS ON A COUNTYWIDE

BASIS?

A NO.

A IF \'OU SUBDIVIDED A COUIJTY SUCH AS MECKLENBURG

COUNTY OR WAKE COUNTY, EVERY COUNTY COMMISSIONER WOULD

STILL HAVE A REPRFSEIITATIVE; WOULDNIT HE OR SHE?

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AS A CITIZEN OR AS A COMMISSIONER?

A AS A CITIZEN?

A YES.

A AND THEREFORE, THAT COUNTY COMMISSIONER WOULD

STILL HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE AND A SENATOR TO REQUEST TO

INTRODUCE LOCAL BILLS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A ALL RIGHT. LOCAL BILLS ARE NOT.-A REQUEST FROM

A COUNTY COMMISSIONER TO INTRODUCE A LOCAL BILL--MY OPINION

WOULD BE IGNORED, BECAUSE THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

FUNCTIONS AS A BOARD, NOT AS A COLLECTION OF INDIVIDUALS.

A WELL, GOING THROUGH YOIJR FOUR UNDERSTANDINGS

OF HOW THESE THINGS COME TO BECOME LAW, USING AN EXAMPLE-.

FOR EXAMPLE, IF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY

COMMISSIONERS DECIDED THAT IT WANTED TO ENACT A LOCAL HOTEL

OR MOTEL TAX, THE FIRST THING IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT

WOULD HAPPEN IS THAT THEY WOULD VOTE ON IT; IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A THE COMMI SS IONERS: WOULD; YES.

A THE COMMISSIONERS WOULD VOTE ON THAT?

A YES.

A AND SUBDIVIDING MECKLENBURG COUNTY CERTAINLY

I^JOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THEIR DOING THAT?

A NO.

A AND SUPPOSING IT WERE UNANIMOUS, WHICH MAY OR MA

NOT HAVE BEEN, BUT SUPPCSING IT WERE UNANIMOUS, THEN THEY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457].

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CERTAINLY COULD CONSULT WITH ALL THE--AS THAT COUNTY

COMMISSION COULD GO TO ALL OF THE REPRESENTATIVES ELECTED

FROM THE SUBDI STRICTS IN MECKLENBURG AND ASK I.HEI'i TO

SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION; COULDN'T THEY?

A YES.

A AND GIVEN THE MECKLENBURG RULE AS YOU DESCRIBED

lT, THOSE TIELEGATES FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY COULD STILL.

VOTE AND ENTER INTO AN INFORMAL.AGREEMENT TO ABIDE BY THE

MAJORITY RULE; COULD THE\. NOT?

A THEY COULD.

A AN:D I T STI LL COULD BE EXPLAINED AND DEBATED

WITHIN A COMMITTEE, NOT ON THE FLOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?

A IT COULD.

A AND ASSUMING THAT IT WERE NOT CONTROVERSIAL AND

ALL THE VARIOUS MEMBERS FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY SUPPORTED

IF, IT STILL COULD BE PASSED ON TH; FLOOR WITH MINIMUM

DEBATEi IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES; THAT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS UNLIKELY, BUT

POS S I BLE.

A DC) YOU THINK IT IS UNLIKELY EVEN IF ALL THE

MEMBERS FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY SUPPORTED IT?

A OH, IF THEY ALL SUPPC)RTED IT; YES. THAT WOULD

BE FINE.

A AN:D EVEN IF THEY ALL DIDIIIT SUPPORT IT, IF THEY

ENTERED INTO AN AGREEMENT AS A DELEGATION, YOU COULD STILL

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

EXPECT THEM TO HONOR THAT AGREEMENT?

IF THEY ENTERED INTO SUCH AN AGREEMENT. I THINK

HAVE ANY SUCH AGREEMENT WOULDTHE PRESSURES FOR THEM TO

DIMINI SH SUBSTANTIALLY.

NOW, USING THE SAME EXAMPLE, A HOTEL-MOTEL TAX

THAT WAS DEBATED IN THIS SESSION WAS PRIMARILY FOR UPTOWN--

FOR THE PROCEEDS TO BE USED FOR UPTOWN IMPROVEMENT?

YES.

A IN AN AREA IN WHICH

CORRECT? OR WHERE FEW PE()PLE

NOBODY LIVES? IS THAT

LIVE?

THAT MUCH ABOUT THEA I REALLY DONIT KNOW

DEMOGRAPHY OF CHARLOTTE.

a OK.AY. BUT UPTOWN I MPROVEMENT-- I S THE UPTOWN OR

THE CITIZENSDOWNTOWN OF THE CITY IS IMPORTANT TO ALL OF

OF THE CITY?

A YES;.

A . ANTD INASFAR AS THE LEGI SLATION AFFECTED THE

WHOLE CITY OR THE WHOLE COUNTY, THEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT

THE CITIZENS WHO LIVED IN EACH OF THE SUBDISTRICTS TO BE

CONCERNED ABOUT IT; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

A AND BECAUSE THEIR CONSTITUENTS WOULD BE CON-

CERNED ABOUT IT, THE REPRESENTATIVES WOULD STILL HAVE AN

INTEREST iN MAINTAINING THE VITALITY OF THE WHOLE CITY?

A THEIR PRIMARY INTEREST IS GOING TO BE IN

F P. O. Eor 2tlait
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OR

PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE THAT ELECTED THEM AND GETTING

REELECTED NEXT TIME AROUND.

NOW, IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE INTEREST OF THE

I^/HOLE CITY AND THE INTEREST OF THE SUBDISTRICT THAT THEY

REPRESENT COINCIDE, THEN CERTAINLY. A PROBLEM ARISES WHEN

THOSE TWO INTERESTS PERHAPS CONFLICT OR WHEN IT IS NECESSAR

TO REACH SOME SORT OF COMPROMISE POSITION.

A AND IF THEY CONFLICT, THE RESULT OF SUBDISTRICTS

WOULD BE THAT BOTH SIDES OF THAT CONFLICT WOULD BE ARTI-

CULATED?

YES. THEY WOULD BE ARTiCULATED, EITHER ON THE

FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE OR IN COMMITTEES; WHEREAS

NOW IT TAKES PLACE BASICALLY OUTSIDE THE FORMAL PROCESSES

OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND THEREFORE CONSUMES A RELATIVEL

SMITLL AMOUNT OF TIME.

A BUT THERE IS NOTHING TO STOP THE MEMBERS OF THAT

COUNTY DELEGATION FROM MEETING WITH THEMSELVES AND RESOLVIN

THEIR COMPROMISE IN MUCH THE SAME MANNER THAT THEY DO NOW;

WOULD THERE BE?

I THINK THERE WOULD BE, BECAUSE NOW IF YOU ARE

DEALING WITH AN ISSUE THAT--WELL, THE I-iOTEL-MOTEL TAX FOR

THE PURPOSES OF YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION IS A GOOD EXAMPLE

BECAUSE THAT DOESNIT REALLY HIGHLIGHT URBAN-SUBURBAN-RURAL

CONFL I CT.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

A P. O.8ox 2El(l
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PRECISION REPORTlNG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

SOMETHING LIKE THE WAKE COUNTY-CITY OF RALEIGH MERGER OF

THE TWO SCHOOL DISTRICTS, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY

DISTINCT SPL.IT IN THE DELEGATION ON THAT ISSIJE. THOSE

PERSONS THAT REPRESENTED DISI'RICTS THAT WERE OUTSIDE THE

OLD RALEIGH CITY ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT WOULD PROBABLY HAVE

BEEN OPPOSED TO THE CONSOLIDATION. THOSE WHO WERE .INSIDE..

WELL, I DONIT KNOW. BUT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ON OPPOSITE

S I DES.

IT IS HARD FOR ME TO SPECULATE AS TO WHICH SIDE

THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ON. WITH THE AT LARGE ELECTION GOING

ON, THE DELEGATION HAS TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE THE COMPROMISE

BETWEEN CONFLICTING INTEREST I^/ITHIN THE COUNTY. AND IN

THAT SORT OF CIRCUMSTANCE, THEY PROBABLY CAME UP WITH A

BILL THAT SUITED NOBODY TN ALL PARTICULARS, BUT SUITED

EVERYBODY IN ENOUGH PARTICULARS THAT THEY FELT COMFORTABLE

WITH INTRODUCING IT AND PUSHING IT ON THROUGH, EVEN THOUGH

IF YOU WERE TO ASK THE SCHOOL BOARDS OF THE TWO UNITS, "DO

YOU SUPPORT THIS BILL,'I THE ANSWER IN BOTH CASES WOULD

PROBABLY HAVE BEEN NO.

A AI.ID YOUR TESTIMONY, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS IF

THERE WERE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, THE Th/O SIDES OF THAT

CONTROVERSY WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE EXPRESSED IN THE

LEGISLATIVE PROCESS?

THAT IS CORRECT.

T}IE LEGISLATURE HAS THE AUTHORITY TC GRANT POWER

A

a

F P. O. Aor 2ltd
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TO COUNTIES AND TO UPHOLD--AND TO WITHHOLD POWERS FROM

COUNT I E S ?

A YES.

A IT ALSO HAS THAT SAME AUTHORITY FOR OTHER BODIES

POLITIC?

A YES.

A SUCH AS CITIES?

A YES.

a Ar\iD SCHOOL DISTRICTS?

A YES.

A AND OTHER SPECIAL DISTRICTS LIKE FIRE DISTRICTS?

A YES.

A DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY OTHER STATES PROHIBIT THE

SUBDIVISION OF COUNTIES IN COMPOSING LEGISLATURE?

A I DO NOT KNOW.

A DID YOU CONSU.LT WITH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN

1981 DURING THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS ABOUT THE ROLE OF

COUNTI ES?

A NO.

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO ABOUT THE

DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES,. IS THAT DISTINCTION BETWEEN

COUNTIES BLURRED BY THE SUBDIVIDING OF COUNTIES?

A I DONIT REMEMBER TESTIFYING TO THE DISTINCTION

BETWEEN COUNTIES.

A YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW COUNTIES WERE CREATED

A P, O. Box 2tlGt
lJ R.rach, Nodh crrolh. 27aI



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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BECAUSE THEY WERE DIFFERENT?

A YE S,; UH-HUH.

A THAT D I FFERENCE BETI^IEEN COUNT I ES I S NOT BLURRED

BY THE SUBDIVIDING OF A SINGLE COUNTY; IS IT?

A I THINK IT DEFINITELY IS.

A THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES IS BLURRED BY

SUBDIVIDING WITHIN A COUNTY?

A OH, NO. NO; I AM SORRY.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURRENT APPORTIONMENT

AS IT WAS ENACTED?

A ONLY IN VERY GENERAL TERMS.

A DO YOU AGREE THAT IT COMBINED COUNTIES THAT HAD

FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT ECONOMIC INTERESTS?

A I HAVE NO OPINION ON THAT.

A FOR EXAMPLE, MECKLENBURG AND CABARRUS COUNTIES

ARE A SENATE DISTRICT. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE ECONOMIC

INTERESTS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS

OF CABARRUS COUNTY ARE SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT?

A I REALLY HAVE NO OPINION ON THAT.

A ARE YOU AWARE THAT CABARRUS COUNTY IS PRIMARILY

A TEXTI LE PRODUCING COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND THAT MECKLENBURG IS NOT PRIMARILY A TEXTILE

PRODUC ING COUNTY?

A I ASSUME SO.

Ff P. O. 8ox 2tt0i,
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PREC!SION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a AND THAT IN FACT THE ECONOMI ES oF THOSE Tr^/O

COUNT I E5 ARE VERY D I FFERENT?

A IT IS A MATTER OF DEGREE. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURRENT SENATE DISTRIC

NUMtsER 2?

A LETIS SEE. IS THIS THE SENATE? THIS IS THE

SENATE.

a I TL{INK IT tS--A BLOW-UP OF IT IS ON THE EASEL.

A ALL RiGHT. THIS ONE? ALL RIGHT. I AM NOW.

A LET ME FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE REMOVE THE TOP

OVERLAY.

A THE YELLOW LINE DEFINES THE DI STR ICT?

A THAT IS WHAT PRIOR TESTIMONY HAS ESTABLISHED.

A ALL RIGHT.

a D() yolt sEE oN THAT MAp CHOWAN COUNTY?

A YES.

A IS THERE A SUBSTANTIAL BODY OF WATER BETWEEN

CHOWAN COUNTY AND BERTIE AND HERTFORD COUNTIES?

A YES.

A AND DO YOU THINK THAT THAT BODY OF WATER iS THE

KIND OF NATURAL BOUNDARY THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT

SET'ARATES COUNTI ES?

A YES.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU WANT TO IDENTIFY

THAT EXHIBIT TO WHICH WE ARE MAKING REFERENCE HERE?

F P. O. 8ox 2llGS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. HUNTER:

MS. WINNER:

BY MS. WINNER:

10 (A).

EXHIBIT NUMBER 1O(A).

A AP.E ALL AREAS IN THE STATE COVERED BY TOWNSHIPS?

A AS FAR AS I KNOW THEY STILL ARE, AT LEAST ON

PAPER.

A AND ALL AREAS OF THE STATES ARE AT LEAST IN SOME

ELECTION PREC INCT?

A YES.

A DO YOU AGREE THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN ONE PART OF

THE COUNTY MAY OR MAY NOT RELATE TO PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE

OTHER PART OF THAT SAME COUNTY?

A I AGREE THAT THEY MAY. IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE,

THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO RELATE TO PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE SA

PAFI.T OF THEIR OWN COUNTY THAN THEY ARE TO RELATE TO SOME.

BODY WHO LIVES EVEN IN AN ADJACENT 
'O'*".

a BUT FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN CORNELTA_-

DO YOU KNOW WHERE CORNELIA IS?

A I BELIEVE IT IS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY OR UNION

PER.HAPS. IT IS CLOSE TO CHARLOTTE; ISNTT IT? YoU DRIVE

THOUGH IT ON THE WAY TO CHARLOTTE. I KNOW THAT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU ASK HIM ANY LITTLE

TOWN UP IN PASQUOTANK, HE CAN TELL YOU.

BY MS;. WINNER:

A IF SOMEONE I IVED IN A SMALL TOWN ON THE NORTHERN

- 
P. O. Bor 2alB

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

END OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY, THEY WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO

RELATE TO SOI'lEONE I^/HO LIVES IN SOUTHERN I REDELL COUNTY THAN

THEY DO TO SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN INNERCITY CHARLOTTE; IS

THAT CORRECT?

A I WOULD TEND TO DOUBT IT.

A DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDCE ABOUT

MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A VERY LITTLE.

A NOW, YOU SAID THAT THERE WERE 295 RATIFIED LOCAL

BILLSi IS THAT CORRECT?

A AS OF.JULY IBTH.

A WHEN DiD THE LEGI SLATURE AD.JOURN?

A JULY 22ND.

A SO THE NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS--THERE WERE A

NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS THAT WERE IMPORTANT THAT HAD NOT

YET BEEN PASSED?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A LIKE THE APPROPRIATIONS BILLS?

A YES;. THE APPROPRIATIONS HAD BEEN PASSED AS OF

THE 1BTH. BUT THE GENERAL APPROPRIATIONS HAD NOT BEEN.

a BUT THE 295 RATI FI ED LOCAL BI LLS--DO YOU KNOI^/

HOW MANY OF THOSE APPLIED TO ONLY ONE COUNTY?

A WELL, I HAVE THE PRINTOUT. I COULD COUNT THEM.

I WILL ESTIMATE.

A WELL, INSTEAD OF ESTIMATING, LET ME ASK A

F P. O. Bor ZIS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN CFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DIFFERENT QUESTION. DID SOME OF THOSE BILLS APPLY TO

CITIES AS OPPOSED TO COUNTIES?

A WELL, IF THE BILL APPLIES TO THE COUNTY, IT

NECESSAP..ILY APPLIES TO ALL CITIES IN THE COUNTY.

A DID SOME OF BILLS APPLY ONLY TO A CITY OR CITIES

RATHER THAN TO A COUNTY---

A ( INTERPOSING) YrS; CORRECT.

a AND SOI.1E OF THOSE BILLS APPLIED TO SCHOOL

DISTRICTS?

A I PFIESUME SO; YEAH.

A AND SOME OF THOSE BILLS APPLIED TO MORE THAN ONE

COUN TY ?

A YES.

a Now, You MENTIONED SOME EXAMPLES OF PROBLEMS

WITH LOCAL BILLS. IS IT A PROBLEM--IN THE CURRENT METHOD

OF APPORTIONMENT A COUNTY MAY BE IN A DIFFERENT HOUSE

DISTRICT THAN SENATE DISTRICT; IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES..

A AND IF THAT IS TRUE, THE COUNTY COMMISSION WHO

WANTS TO GET A LOCAL BILL PASSED MAY HAVE TO LOOK TO A

REPRESENTATIVE WHO WAS IN ONE COUNTY AND A SENATOR I^JHO LIVE

IN ANOTHER COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A DOES THAT PROBLEM EXIST WITH WHOLE COUNTIES AS

WELL AS IT EXISTS WITH 
-DIVIDED 

COUNTIES?

F P. O,8ox 2a!43
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX- ARIZONA

A YES.

A WAS THERE ANY REASON THAT THE RESIDENTS FROM

WALKERTOWN COULD NOT HAVE GONE TO THEIR REPRESENTATIVE TO

ASK ABOUT THEIR ANNEXATION--INCORPORATION?

A THEY COULD HAVE, BUT THEY HAVE GOT TO GO TO BOTH.

FOR LOCAL BILL PURPOSES THE SENATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES

ESSENTIALLY FUNCTION AS A UNIT.

A AND THEY COULD HAVE GONE TO THEIR REPRESENTATIVE

AND TO THEIR SENATOR?

A YES. THEY HAVE TO GO TO ALL OF THEM.

YOU HAVE GOT TO GET THROUGH BOTH HOUSES. YOU CANrT .JUST

GO TO ONE SIDE AND EXPECT TO GET ANYTHING DONE.

A BL'T THEY COULD HAVE DONE THAT?

A YES.

A AND THE PEOPLE FROM FORSYTH COUNTY WHO REPRESENT

I^/INSTON-SALEM MAY HAVE OPPOSED THAT;

A YES.

A AND THAT OPPOSITION MAY HAVE BEEN EXPRESSED?

A YES.

A SO YOU WOULD HAVE HAD THE REPRESENTATIVES AND

SENATORS WHO REPRESENTED WALKERTOWN ARTICULATING THE NEEDS

OF THE I R CONST I TUEI.ITS AND THE REPRESENTAT I VES AND SENATORS

WHO REPRESENTED WINSTOI.J-SALEM ARTICULATING THE NEEDS OF

THEIR CONSTITUENTS?

A YES.

A P. O. 0or a'tloll
Ll R.hlch. Bonh C..o[m 276il



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AI.iD THOSE NEEDS MAY HAVE BEEN D I FFERENT ?

A YES.

A DRAWING YOTIR ATTENTION TO THE WAKE FOREST

SITUATiON, THERE WERE MANY OTHER EXAMPLES OF EXCEPTIONS TO

THE ANNEXATION LAW I^/ERE NOT PASSED; IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

A I CANIT TESTIFY TO THAT. I DO NOT KNOW.

a WERE YOU THERE ? I'IERE YOU COVER i NG THE LEG I S-

LATIVE SESS iON?

A I WAS NOT THERE ON THE LOCAL BILL SIDE OF THINGS

THIS SESSION.

a so You DoNtT KNow WHETHER h'AKE FOREST WAS ONE

OF MANY OTHER EXAMPLTS OF ANNEXATION?

A I COULDN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY. IT WOULD BE

UNUSUAL IF THERE WERE NOT OTHERS IN THIS SESSiON. BUT I

HAVE NOI COUNTED THEM BY CATEGORY YET. I USUALLY DO. I

JUST HAVENIT HAD TIME THIS YEAR.

a BUT THI S SrSS'r ON WAS UNUSUAL WI TH REGARD TO

ANNEXATiON BECAUSE OF THE REVJ S IOI.I TO THE ANNEXATION LAW

WHICH WiLL BE IMPOSED?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

a NOW, THE HOUSE IVIEMBER FROM WAKE COUNTY CERTAINLY

HAD THE ABILITY TO KNOW THAT SENATOR SPEED REPRESENTED

WAKE FOREST; DIDNIT THEY?

A YES.

A AND THEY CERTAINLY COULD HAVE GONE TO SENATOR

a P, O.8or 2tlGl
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SPEEDi COULD THEY NOT HAVE?

WELL, A REPRESENTATIVE APPROACH IS A SENATOR

GINGERLY AND VICE VERSA. THEY COULD HAVE; YES.

HOWEVER, ON A LOCAL BILL--FOR ANY LOCAL BILL lT

IS NECESSARY FOR REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS TO COOPERATE;

i SN I T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND ON THI S BI LL AS ON ANY OTHER LOCAL BILL, THE

ASKED FOR COOPERATION FROM THEREPRfSENTATIVES COULD HAVE

SENATOR FROM THAT AREA?

A YES.

A AND THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED OUTSIDE

HIS NORMAL LEGISLATIVE EDIQUETTE?

NO.

A iS IT A REASONABLE INTERPRETATION THAT SENATOR

SPEED SIMPLY .,IUST DI D NOT DO HI S .TOg:

A THAT IS A REAS,ONABLE INTERPRETATION. THAT IS

CERTAINLY WHAT THE NEWSPAPER SUGGESTED.

A AND IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT

NUMBER 5O AT PARAGRAPH FOUR--WOULD YOU DO THAT?

(wt trurss coMPLI Es. )

A YES.

A WOULD YOU JUST READ THE F'IRST SENTENCE OF THAT

PARAGRAPH OUTLOUD?

".. .IT IS llo'THE FIRST TIME THE SENATOR HAS

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2llB
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DUCKED. II

A AND READING THE REST OF THAT PARAGRAPH, THE

OTHER EXAMPLE THERE TALKING ABOUT, IT IS NOT A LOCAL BILL,

IS IT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A WHAT WAS I T?

A THE ERA AMENDMENT.

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF URBAN

AND RURAL SPLITS WITHiN COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A UNDER A MULTi-MEMBER DISTRICT, IS IT POSSIBLE

FOR ALL OF THE REPRESENTATIVES TO LIVE IN THE URBAN AREA

AND NONE OF THEM LIVE IN THE RURAL AREA?

A YES.

A AND IT IS POSSIBLE, IN FACT, FOR THEM TO ALL

LIVE IN ONE SMALL PART OF THE URBANI AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WAKE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVES

HAVE LIVED OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF RALEIGH IN THE LAST SIX

YEARS?

A VERY FEW.

MS. l^J I NNER : I DON I T HAVE ANY OTHER

QUESTIONS.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 1i5O P.M.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX ARIZONAF P. O. Bor i"El(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2ala
lJ R.Ltorr. Nodh c.rotn. 276il

tsY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. FARRELL, DiD THE ANSWER TO

YOTJ GAVE IN ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS WHICH

BY COUNSEL IN ANY WAY CHANGE YOUR OPINION

ON YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION?

ANY QUISTION THAT

WERE PROPOUNDED

THAT YOU GAVE

NO.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.

EXAMINATION

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MR. FARRELL, AS I UNDERSTOOD YOUR TESTIMONY

ABOUT THE THREAT TO THE PRESENT MODE OF DOING BUSINESS IN

THE LEGISLI.TURE WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL LEGISLATION, YOU

DESCRIBED AS I UNDERSTOOD IT SOME ADVERSE EFFECTS THAT YOU

SAW COMING FROM THE SPLITTING OF COUNTIES?

YES,.

IN MORE THAN ONE DISTRICT?

YES.

DO YOU THINK THE SAME KINDS OF DIFFICULTIES

ATTEND THE GROUPING TOGETHER OF A NUMBER OF COUNTIES IN THE

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS? IS IT THE SAME PROBLEM?

IT SEEMS NOT TO SINCE PEOPLE--THE PARTIES ARE

ORGANIZED BY COUNTY. PEOPLE TEND TO KNOW, I THINK PROBABLY

LARGELY BECAUSE OF PARTY ORGANIZATION-.IF A PERSON GETS

ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE, HE HAS MADE IT HIS BUSINESS TO



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

GET TO KNOW WHO IS WHO IN THAT WHOLE COUNTY. AND IT SEEMS

TO WORK FAIRLY WELL. I DO THINK THE 1966 DECI SIOI! WHICH

ELIMINATED ONE REPRESENTATIVE PER COUNTY AND REQUIRED

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE HOUSE DISTINCTLY REDUCED THE

NUMBER OF LOCAL BILLS BEING INTRODUCED.

A IN OTHER WORDS, AS I INTERPRET YOUR SENSE OF

THINGS, THE IDEAL SITUATION SiMPLY FROM THE STANDPOINT OF

MAKiNG THE LOCAL LEGISLATION PROCESS BASED UPON THE PRESENT

UNDERSTANDINGS WERE BEST WOULD BE COUNTIES WITH REPRESEN.

TATIVES ONLY FROM THAT COUNTY?

A WITH AT LEAST ONE FROM EACH COUNTY IS THE IDEAL

WAY TO MAKE IT WORK. THAT IS THE I,JAY IT DEVELOPED.

A AND WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT?

A WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT FOR 17 YEARS.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

FARRE LL.

(wT TUTSS EXCUSED. )

MR. LEONARD: THE STATE CALLS MARSHALL

RAUCH.

( WHEREUPON,

MARSHALL RAUCH

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOI./S : )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 3i53 P.M.

- 
P. O. gor 2Ellxt

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BY MR. LE0l.lARD :

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS,

PLEASE?

A MY NAME IS MARSHALL ARTHUR RAUCH. I LIVE AT

1i2I SCOTCH DRIVE IN GASTONIA.

A ARE YOU CURRENTLY A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL

ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA?

AIAM.

a WHAT POSTTION DO YOU HOLD?

A I AM PRESENTLY CO-CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE

COMMITTEE, AND I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE LEGISLATIVE ETHICS

COMMITTEE.

a .rN wHrcH HousE?

A IN THE SENATE.

'{ 
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A MEMBER OF THE STATE

SENATE, SENATOR RAUCH?

A I HAVE BEEN IN THE SENATE L7 YEARS. THIS IS MY

I 7TH YEAR.

A DI,IR I NG YOUR SENATOR I AL SERV I CE, HOW MANY

LEGI SLATIVE REDI STRI CTINGS HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN?

A I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN TWO.

A WHEN WAS THE FIRST?

A I BELIEVE THE FIRST WAS IN 1971. I WAS A MEMBER

OF THE SENATE REDI STRICTING COMT4ITTEE. IN 1981 I I,.IAS

CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE.

F P. O. Bor 2.rdl
u nrbloh, t.6h C.,otl{ 270il



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN GASTON COUNIY?

A 38 YEARS.

A DO YOU HAVE A BUSINESS THERE?

A I DO HAVE A BUSINESS CALLED RAUCH INDUSTRIES.

WE ARE MANUFACTURERS OF CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS.

A WHEN DID YOU FIRST SEEK PUBLIC OFFICE IN GASTON

COUNTY ?

A ABOUT 30 YEARS AGO. THAT IS CLOSE. I RAN AND

WAS ELECTED TO THE CITY COUNCIL OF GASTONIA.

A THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE EARLY FORTIES?

I AM. SORRY, THE EARLY FIFTIES?

A ABOUT THAT; YEAH.

A I DON ' T HAVE A PH. D. IN MATHEMATICS. I.JAS THERE

ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT FIRST ELECI'ION THAT YOU RAN IN

AND WERE ELECTED IN?

.A YES. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT A BLACK OR A.JE

HAD RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL. AND WE BOTH GOT ELECTED. AND

NAT BARBER BECAME CITY TREASURER. I BECAME MAYOR PRO TEM.

AND THAT WAS THE FIRST BLACK OFFICER AS I UNDERSTAND IN A

CITY IN THAT AREA A LONG, LONG TIME PREVIOUSLY', IF EVER.

a DURING TtlE--ri0t'/ LONG DID YOU SERVE ON THE CITY

COUNCIL, BY THE WAY?

A I SERVED SIX YEARS.

A AND YOU WERE ELECTED TO THE SENATE IN 1966?

A THAT IS CORRECT. THE FIRST TIME WAS 167 THAT I

F t. O. Bor l'llct
lJ Rrbroh. lb'rlr Crroflnr 2tarr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCR!BING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA

SERVED.

A TELL THE COURT A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR OWN

PERSONAL BACKGROUND IN GASTONIA AND GASTON COUNTY WITH

RESPECT TO YOUR I,JORK IN VARIOUS AREAS OF HUMAN RELATIONS

AND CIVIL RIGHTS.

A WELL, WHEN I FII.IISHED ABOUT SIX YEARS ON THE

CITY COUNCI.L, THE MAYOR THEN APPOINTED A GASTON COUNTY

HUMAN RELATIONS COMMITTEE. AND THIS WAS PROBABLY IN THE

NEIGHBORHOOD OF 20 YEARS AGO. I I.JAS CI-IAIRMAN. AND I GUESS

OF ANY OF THE THINGS I MIGHT HAVE ACCOMPLISHED, I GUESS I

WAS PROUDER OR PROUDEST OF THE ITCCOMPLI SHMENTS OF THAT

HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSiON, BECAUSE THAT WAS A TIME WHEN WE

INTEGRATED THEIITERS. THAT WAS A TIME THAT WE DID THINGS

THAT PECPLE JUST ACCEPT TODAY. BUT WE INTEGRATED OUR MOVIE

THEATERS, OUR RESTAURANTS, OUR MOTELS. THERE I^/ERE A LOT

OF THI,NGS DONE AT THAT TIME. AND I WAS CHAIRMAN.

AND AFTER THAT I SERVED ON THE NORTH CAROLINA

GOOD NEIGHBOR COMMISSION

A AND THAT WAS A STATEWIDE EFFORT?

A YES. NORTH CAROLINA GOOD NEIGHBOR WAS STATEWIDE.

I BELIEVE IT WAS GOVERNOR SANFORD WHO APPOINTED ME.

A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE LOCAL ELKS CLUB IN

GASTON I A ?

A YES. I BELONG TO TWO ELKS CLUBS. I AM A MEMBER

OF THE GASTON IA ELKS CL_UB AND I ALSO HAVE AN HONORARY

F P. O. 8or alG!
U ntbleh, Nodn C.roI[ 27ail



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MEMBERSHIP IN OUR BLACK ELKS LODGE.

ME BY GIVING ME CARD NUMBER 1.

AND THEY HAVE HONORED

a

GROUPS ?

HAVE YOL' EVER RECEIVED ANY AWARDS FROM BLACK

A YES. THE OMEGA PSI PHI, WHICH IS A GASTON

COUNTY BLACK FRATERNITY, GAVE ME THE MAN OF THE YEAR AWARD,

AND I IVI.S THE FIRST WHITE PERSON TO EVER GET THAT AI^JARD.

A NOW, DURING THE COURSE OF THE YEARS, SENATOR

RAUCH, HAVE YOU AND YOUR FAMI LY SUPPORTED THE YOUNG PEOPLE

OTHER THAN MEMBEF'.S OF YOUR FAMI LY IN THEIR EDUCATIONAL

ENDEAVORS?

A YES. WE HAVE HELPED BOTH BLACK AND WHITE. I

AM ESPECIALLY PROUD OF SOME OF THOSE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN

WHO FINISHED COLLEGE: A BLACK DENTIST, A YOUNG BLACK FELLO

THAT rS NOW GOING TO GO TO HARVARD:O* SCHOOL, SOME OTHER

FELLOWS, .JUST AVERAGE 
''JIZENS 

LIKE MYSELF, WHO ARE NOW

WORKING AND SUPPORTING FAMILIES, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE, THAT

WE HAVE ENJOYED HELPING.

H()W LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN RALPH G INGLES, SR. ?

A 30 YEARS MAYBE. RALPH WAS ON THE GASTON COUNTY

GOOD NEIGHBOR COUNCIL WITH ME. THAT IS WHEN WE CAME VERY

CLOSE--30 YEARS AGO--20 YEARS AGO.

a

A

a

HAS HE EVER BEEN IN YOUR HOME?

SURE.

DO YOU KNOI,/ HIS SON?

- 
P. O. gox 2tlGli

LJ R.Bsh. t6fi c.,orm ,!tl



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IISKIPPERIi?

a RliLPH, J R. ?

A YEAH. I KNOW HIS SON VERY WELL.

a AND yOU KNOW THAT rtSKIppERn OR RALpt-t, JR. IS ONE

OF THE NAMED PLAINTIFFS IN THIS ACTION?

A YES. THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO BOTH OF US.

MS. WINNER:

A SURPRISE TO MR. GINGLES.

WELL, I OBJECT TO WHAT WAS

JUDGE PHlLLIPS: WELL, WE WONIT CONSIDER

THAT ANSWER.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a HOW LONG HAV:E YOU KNOWN THE RALPH GINGLES WHo

IS A PLAINTIFF IN THIS ACTION?

A 25 YEARS OR SO. WHEN HE WAS REAL LITTLE, I

DIDNIT KNOW HIM. LETIS SAY AT LEAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.

a Now, DrD THERE COME A rimr rN THE 1981 SESSTON

OF THE LEGISLATURE WTITN VOU BECAME INVOLVED IN REDISTRICTIN

A I AM SORRY?

A YOU HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN THE REDISTRICTING

PROCESS THIS LAST TIME?

A OH, YES.

a rELL THE COURT WiAr COMMITTEE IT WAS AND WHAT

ROLE YOU PLI'YED?

A WELL, THE REDISTRICTING.-THE SENATE REDI STRICTIN

WENT TO THE SENATE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE, AND I WAS

F P. O. 8d 2t'lcl
lJ fut tctr. Nonn c.rc[il 2rutt



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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-36t9 a76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CHAIRMAN OF THAI' COMMITTEE.

A WHEN THE PROCESS STARTED, DID YOU TAKE ANY

POS I T I ON I,/I TH RESPECT TO WHETHER MEET I NGS WOULD BE PUBL I C

OR HELD IN EXECUTIVE SESSION?

A YES; I DID. I WANTED ALL THE MEETINGS HELD

oPEN. ALMOST ALL oF THEM I,JERE. You KNow, SOMETIMES soME-

ONE WILL MAKE A MOTION AND RECOGNIZING THE MOTION IS MADE

THEY WILL GO INTO EXECUTiVE SESSION. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT

95--90 OR 95 PERCENT OF OUR MEETING TIME THAT WE SPENT IN

MEETINGS WA5 OPEN TO EVERYBODY.

A HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE SENATE ARE BLACK OR WERE

BLACK IN THAT SESSION?

A ONE.

A THAT WAS SENATOR FRYE?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

a DID THERE COME A TIME Wnfr.r HE hJAS A MEMBER OF

THE COMMITTEE?

A YES. AFTER TWO OR THREE MEETINGS--AFTER A MONTH

OR TWO--HE WAS APPOINTED TO THE COMMITTEE. HE TOOK SENATOR

GRAYIS PLACE WHO WAS FROM HIS DISTRICT.

A WERE ALL OF THE VOTES OF THE COMMITTEE EITHER

HELD OPENLY OR RECORDED?

A ALL VOTES WERE OPEN AND SOME WERE RECORDED.

a AND WHEN yOU SAy rCpEN, il yOU MEAN OPEN TO THE

PUBLIC AND THE PRESS?

F P. O. Bor lArB
lJ R.brgh. taodh c.olh. 2761



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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457].
' PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A ALL VOTES WERE DONI.. IN PUBLIC OPEN TO THE

PLIBLIC AND THE PRESS.

A DURING THE COURSE OF DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM OF

REDISTRICTING, SENATOR, TELL THE COURT WHAT PROBLEMS YOU

EXPERIENCED FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED UNTIL THE TIME YOU

EVENTUALLY WERE ABLE TO PASS A FINAL REDISTRICTING BILL.

A WELL, IN THE VERY BEGINNING ESPECIALLY THERE WAS

A DEFINITE PROTECTIVE FEELING BY THE MEMBERS OF THE

COMMITTEE WHICH I THINK IS ONLY NATURAL TO PROTECT THEIR

OWN ABILITY TO BE REELECTED. AND ALSO WE WERE UNDER WHAT--

I^JELL, WHAT WAS THE STATE LAW AND UNDER THE CONSTI TUTION.

WE WERE REMINDED MANY TIMES THAT WE WERE SWORN NOT TO BREAK

COUNTY LINES.

THE FIRST PLAN THAT WE DID SEND TO..FOR APPROVAL

WAS THE EXACT SAME PLAN THAT EVERYONE HAD BEEN ELECTED

,NDER. wE woRKED oN THAT 
'LAN 

oori* wE *ERE T.LD wE

COULDN'T AND AFTER WE *U*' TOLD THAT WE SHOULD BREAK COUNTY

LINES AND SHOULD COME UP WITI-I. TWO SPECIFIC DISTRICTS THAT

WERE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK.

WE DID DO THAT. IT TOOK A WHILE. IT TOOK A

NUMBER OF WEEKS. IT TOOK AT LEAST TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS

WHERE WE INVITED EVERYONE IN. IT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE

NEWSPAPERS. WE WER.E VERY CAREFUL TO DO THAT-.THAT WE WERE

GOING TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING. WE PUBLISHED IN THE NEI,IS-

PAPERS AROUND THE STATE. WE HELD THE PUBLIC HEARINGS. AND

F P. O. &r itrl(x!
lJ R.5ah. Nonh c.Dxr 2ral



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PRECISION REPORT]NG
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IT WAS ABOUT THEN THAT--WELL, HAVING HEARD FROM THE

JUSIICE DEPARTMENT THA't- WE SHOULD BREAK COUNTY LINES, WE

DID. AND A BETTER PLAN WAS EVOLVED. AND THE FINAL PLAN/

AS YOU ALL KNOW, DOES HAVE TWO PREDOMINANTLY BLACK DISTRICT

AND THAT WAS DONE IN COMPLIANCE WITH t"lHAT WE lt/ERE TOLD TO

DO. AND THE COMMITTEE FELT THAT THEY HAD COMPLIED

COMPLETELY.

YOU WERE TOLD TO DO BY WHOM?

BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

A DID YOU PERSONALLY PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE

NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE JUSTICE-.THE MEETINGS WITH THE

.JUST I CE DEPARTMENT?

ANO;IDI

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

a DID YOLJ

MEET I NGS ?

TO WASHINGTON TO SEE THE

WEl.,iT AND SOME LEGI SLATORS.

REPORTS FROM THEM AFTER THOSE

SULL I VAN FROM OUR STAFF

BACK AND HE TOLD US WI.'AT

THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE

DISTRICT IN THE EAST TO

POPUL.ATION, AND THAT IN

THAT HAD A PRECOMINANTLY

D NOT GO

STAFF

RECE I VE

A YES; I.JE D I D. TERRENCE

HAD BEEN TO WASHINGTON. HE CSME

WAS GOING TO BE NECESSARY TO DO,

CRITERIA, THE PUBLIC HEARING, THE

HAVE AT LEAST A 55 PERCENT BLACK

ADDITION TO THE GUILFORD DISTRICT

BLACK POPULAT ION.

a ovER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME DID YOU AND YOUR

COMMITTEE DEAL WITH THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS? WHEN DID IT

F t. O.8or 2trcg
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC, MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

START AND

A

a

A

ABOUT 12

ON APRI L

a

WHET.I DID YOT,I PASS YOUR FINAL REDISTRICTING BILL

MAY I LOOK AT THESE NOTES?

YES; GO AHEAD.

THE FIRST MEETING WAS M/rRCH l7fY, 19BI. WE HAD

MEETINGS OF THE COMMITTEE WHEN WE PASSED THE BILL

27rH, t982. SO, ABOUT L3 MONTHS.

YOU DEVELOP

THE SENATE?

DURING THE COURSE OF THOSE DELIBERATIONS, DID

ANY CRITERIA TO GUIDE YOU AND THE COMMITTEE IN

WE DID. AFTER THE STAFF WENT TO SEE THE .JUSTICE

WE ESTABLISHED ANDDEPARTMENT, AT OUR JANUARY 28TH MEETING

ACCEPTED THE REAPPORTIONMENT CRITERIA.

aANDDIDTHESENATEANDTHECoMMITTEEDEBATEAND

EXPERIENCE ANY DIFFICULTIES OR CONFLICTS BECAUSE OF THOSE

CRITERIA?

A THEy DID. IT WAS COMPr-Lfrly DIFFERENT FRoM WHAT

h,E HAD PREVIOUSLY TSTNELISHED, SPECIFICALLY THE BREAKING

OF THE COUNTY LINES WAS A BIq PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF THE

SENATORS. AND THE CRITERIA WERE DEBATED AND THEY WERE

FINALLY ACCEPTED. THEY WERE VOTED ON, MOTION MADE,

SECONDED AND FINALLY PASSED.

A TO WHAT EXTENT DID THE

40 COVERED AND THE 6O UNCOVERED OR

UNDER THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT CREATE

A WELL, THERE WERE TWO DI

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE

NON-COVERED COUNT I ES

D I FF I CULT I ES FOR YOU?

FFERENT PROBLEMS IN THE

F P. O. Bor 2t163
u Brb{sn, Nom c.rch. ar0tt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

EYES OF THE LEGISLATORS. AND THE BIGGEST PROBLEM AS I

REMEMBER I^/AS THE BREAK I NG OF THE COUNTY L I NES. NoBoDY

WANTED TO BREAK COUNTY LINES.

BUT I^/HEN .JUSTICE TOLD US WE HAD TO, THEY WERE

BROKEN. AND AS I INDICATED, THEY WERE DONE IN WHAT IS NOW

I BELIEVE THE NUMBER TI^/O SENATORIAL DI STRICT, THE OLD NUMBE

ONE, WHEP.E WE HAD A 55.1 PERCENT BLACK POPULATION. AND THE

OTHER WAS IN GUILFORD I^JHERE WE DO HAVE THE BLACK LEGISLATOR

FROM.

A DID THERE COME A POINT IN TIME WHEN YOU LEARNED

OF PROPOSALS TO CREATE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN SOME OF

THE MORE POPULACE COUNTIES?

YES. AT LEAST ON TWO OCCASIONS THERE WERE PLANS

BROUGHT-.THERE WAS A PLAN BROUGHT FORTH FOR A SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICT WHICH WAS VCTED ON AND DEFEATED, AND AT LEAST ON

TWO OTHER OCCASIONS THERE WAS A NOTTON MADE TO APPOINT A

COMMITTEE TO DEVELOP A 
''.O* 

OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. AN

THAT I./AS DEFEATED ON AT LEAST. TWO OCCASIONS. I THINK

EXACTLY TWO.

WHEN I S YOUR FIRST RECOLLECTION OF DISCUSSIONS O

VERSUS SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS? WHEMULTI _MEMBER DI STRICTS

DID THAT FIRST OCCUR?

A I KNOW IF HAPPEI'IED ON APRIL 27TH WHEN SENATOR

MI LLS MADE THE MOTION--FEBRUARY 9]H. HERE IT IS. ON

FEBRIJARY 9TH, THERE WA-S A PLAN FOR 5O SINGLE MEMBER DISTRIC

F P. O.8ox 2tldl
lJ tu|.lch. Nm C.rdl[ 27GI



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. M.qIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT WAS INTRODUCED BY SENATOR FRYE, MOTION MADE, SECONDED)

VOTED ON AND FAiLED.

A WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?

A FEBRUARY 1982. AND ON THAT SAME DAY, SENATOR

MILLS, SECONDED BY SENATOR NOBLE, MADE A MOTION FOR A

THREE-MAN SUBCOMMITTEE TO WORK ON SINGLE MEMBER PLANS.

AND THAT ALSO FAILED.

A NOW, SENATOR RAUCH, PRIOR TO FEBRUARY gTH OF

1982, HAD ANYONE FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA APPROACHE

YOU TO URGE YOU TO SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF SINGLE MEMBER

D I STR I CTS IN THE LARGER METROPOL I TAN COUNT I ES?

A I DONTT THINK SO. BUT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY

THAT SENATOR BILLY.-SENATOR BILL MILLS ALWAYS WANTED, I

BELIEVE IT WAS, NUMBERED SEATS. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME

I HEARD IT WAS FEBRUARY gTH WHEN SENATOR FRYE ASKED THAT

WE VOTE ON A SINGLE MEMBE* 
""*"'. 

AND THEN SENATOR

MILLS MADE A MOTION FOR A SUBCOMMITTEE TO STUDY IT.

A \^/HEN DID RALPH GINGLES, .JR., THE PLAINTI FF IN

THIS ACTION, FIRST CONTACT YOU TO URGE YOU TO SUPPORT

SiNGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE LARGER METROPOLITAN

COUNTI ES?

A HE NEVER DID.

A DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT MR. GINGLES IS A

CONSTITUENT..THE PLAINTIFF IN THIS CASE IS A CONSTITUENT

OF YOURS?

F P. O. lor iBtc!
Ll Rtbtelr Noiri C.rothr 27at r



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A SURE, HE IS.

A DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE LIVES?

A SURE.

A AT THE TIME YOU--INCIDENTALLY, DID YOU SUPPORT

SEI.IATOR FRYE C)R SENATOR MILLS--STRIKE THAT. DID YOU

SUPPORT SENATOR FRYEI S PF:OPOSAL FOR SINGLE MEMBER DI STRICTS

A AS CIIAIRMAN, I DIDI'lIT VOTE. AS I RECALL, TT WAS

DEFEATED RESOUNDEDLY, THOUGH.

A DID YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL OPINION WITH RESPECT

TO THAT PROPOSAL?

A FRANKLY AND 'SELFI SHLY I I^IOULD PROBABLY BE

REELECTED MUCH EASIER IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT. SO I

BELIEVE I PROBABLY LIKE SINGLE MEMTJER DISTRICTS PERSONALLY.

a UP UNTI L FEBRUARY 9TH, 1982, HOW MANY l^JHI TE

PEOPLE OR BLACK GROUPS IN THE STATE CONTACTED YOU URGING

YOU TO SUPPOP.T SINGLE MEMBER DISTRi''''"

A I DONIT BELIEVE ANY. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME

I EVER HEARD OF IT COMING FROI.,1 THE BLACK PEOPLE WAS AT

THAT MEETING.

A AND DID YOTJ RECEiVE CONTACTSFROM BLACK GROUPS

IN THE DISTRICT THAT YOU REPRESENT URGING YOU TO SUPPORT

SINGLE MEI,lBER DISTRICTS?

A NO. AND I HAVENIT NOW.

A VfITH RESPECT TO THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT WAS HELD

I N f'EBR.UARY OF T982, WHAT STEPS D I D YOU TAKE TO ENSURE THAT

F P. O. Aor 1tr16s
LJ F.brgn. Nonh C.rotil 2ilrr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX ARIZONA

THAT MEETING WAS PLIBLICIZED SO THE PUBLIC KNEW ABOUT IT?

A WE ESTABLISHED A PRESS NOTICE. I BELIEVE WE

PASSED A SPECIFIC NOTICE APPROVED BY EVERYONE IN THE

COMMITTEE, AND THAT NOTIFICATION WAS SENT TO I BELIEVE 1O

MAJOR NEWSPAPERS IN THE STATE AND HIGHWAY PATROLMEN TOOK

MAPS THAT WE HAD DRAWN THAT WE WERE GOING TO TALK ABOUT

AND HAD THEM PUT ON A NUMBER--MAYBE 1O--I BELIEVE THEY

WERE DISTRIBUTED TO ALL THE COURTHOUSES. I TAKE THAT BACK.

IT WAS ABOUT IO NEWSPAPERS THAT WE SENT THE PUBL.IC NOTICE

TO.

BUT WE HAD

AND PUT THEM UP IN THE

WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT.

THE HIGHWAY PATROL DELIVER THE MAPS

COURTHOUSES IN THE STATE SO EVERYBOD

PUBL I C I.IEAR I NG HELD ?

THE AUDITORIUM IN THE LEGISLATIVE

I^JHERE WAS THAT

IT WAS HELD INA

BUI LDI.NG.

a

A

a

A

a

MANY PFOPLE

A

3 O O.-MAY BE

BECAUSE I T

WERE YOU PERSONALLY PFIESENT?

I WAS.

DID YOU CHAIR THAT MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE?

I BELIEVE I DID.

COULD YOU GIVE THE COURT AN ESTIMATE AS TO HOW

ATTENDED THAT MEETING?

IF I TOOK A GUESS AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, NOT

SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 10O AND JOO. BUT I DO KNOW

WAS IN THE MINUTES THAT ONLY EIGHT PEOPLE SPOKE.

F P. O. Dor 2lla!
lJ e.r.tsh, Nodh c.re0nr ,ral



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A'l- THE F IRS'f PUBLIC HEARING, ONLy ONE pERSON

SPOKE.

A WAS THERE AMPLE OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO

TEST I FY?

A OH, yES. WE OFFERED EVERYBODY AN OPPORTUNITy.

I BELIEVE I REMEMBER THERE WAS ONE PERSON AT THE FIRST AND

I BELIEVE THERE WERE EIGHT AT THE SECOND. BUT I HAVE IT

EXACTLY HERE. ON OCTOBER 2OTH, IN THE JOINT PUBLiC HEARING,

THERE WERE EIGHT SPEI.KERS. THAT IS CORRECT, OCTOBER 2OTH,

1981. EIGHT SPEAKERS CAME.

AT THE MAY 2 1ST PUEJL I C HEAR I NG, ONLY ONE SPEAKER

CAME.

a THAT WAS 1981?

A 1981, MAY 21ST, ONE SPEAKER CAME, DONNA JONES

FOR COMMON CAUSE. SHE WAS THE ONLY SPEIIKER--MAY 2lST' 1981

ON OCTOBER 2OTH FOR THE JOINT PUBLiC HEARING, EIGHT SPEAKER

CAME. I AM SORRY. I DID NOT HAVE THE EXACT NUMBER ON THE

| 82 oNE.

a Do YoU HAVE A RECOLLECTION ROUGHLY HOW MANY

PEOPLE TESTIFIED THAT DAY?

A I WOULD BE GUESSING.

a WELL, DONTT DO THAT.

A OKAY. IT WOULD BE IN THE MINUTES, OF COURSE.

MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL.

JUDGE PHJ LLI PS: CROSS-EXAMI NAT I ON?

F P. O, lor 2!tGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CROSS- EXAMINATION 4iL7 P.M.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A IF I COULD .JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THAT?

A OH, YES, CERTAINLY.

A SENATOR, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED.]UST A FEW MINUTES

AGO THAT YOU WERE PERSONALLY PRESENT AT THE PUBLIC HEARING,

WHI CH PUBLIC HEARING I4ERE YOU REFERRING TO?

A WELL, I WAS AT ALL THE MEETINGS. SO, THERE WERE

TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS AS I RECALL. I WAS A'I'BOTH OF THOSE.

AND I WAS AT EVERY MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE.

.A NOW, WHICH TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS ARE YOU REFERRING

TO?

A I GAVE YOU THE DATES. THE FIRST WAS THE ONE THA

I MENTIONED WHEN ONLY ONE PERSON FROM COMMON CAUSE SPOKE.

THEN THERE |,JAS ANOTHER ONE WHICH WAS A JOINT ONE, AND THERE

WERE EIGHT PEOPLE WHO CAME AND SPOKE.

1981?

A AND BOTH OF THOSE PUBLIC HEARINGS TOOK PLACE IN

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND BOTH OF THOSE PUBLIC HEARINGS TOOK PLACE

PR.OR TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ISSUING ANY LETTERS OF

OBJECT IOI.I TO THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT?

A I BELIEVE THAT IS CORRECT.

A WTRE YOU ALSO PRESENT AT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TOOK PLACE AFTER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD ISSUED

ITS OB.JECTION TO THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT PLAN?

A YES.

A WHEN DID THAT PUBLIC HEARING TAKE PLACE?

A I DONIT REMEMBER THE DATE. BUT THAT T BELIEVE

WAS AROUND EARLY FEBRUARY.

a IN FACT, THAT TOOK PLACE---

MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE ME. IF THE COURT

PLEASE, THE I^/iTNESS HAS OBVIOUSLY USED SOME NOTES OF THE

MEETINGS TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION SO HE WOULD BE ACCURAT

WITH RESPECT TO THE DATES. 
, 

AND COUNSEL HAS TAKEN THOSE

NOTES AWAY FROM HIM. I THINK HE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE THEM

BAC K.

I WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE COUNSEL A COPY IF IT

WOULD FACILITATE HER CROSS-EXAMINATION.

MS. GUINIER: THAT WOULD BE FINE.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THAT SEEMS LI KE A PERFECT

SOLUT I ON.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?

JUDGE PHI LLi PS: YES.

(OOCUMTUT HANDED TO WITNESS.)

BY MS. GU I N,I ER :

A SENATOR RAUCH, LOOKING AT YOUR NOTES, IS THERE

ANYTHING ON YOUR NOTES ABOUT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT TOOK

PLACE IN FEBRUARY OF L9B2?

F P. O. Bor I't!63
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WE HAD A PUISLIC HEARING. yES, IF yOU LOOK

UNDER JANUARY 2BTH, 1982, THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING WAS TO

PASS TilE PLAN AND TO HAVE A PUBL I C HEAR I NG, AND THEN HAVE

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ME'ET. SO THAT WE HAD A PUBLIC HEARING

AFTER THAT .JANUARY 2 BTH MEET I NG.

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU HAD

EVER HEARD THE ISSUE OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS AT A

MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE ON FEBRUARY 9, 1982; IS THAT

CORRE CT ?

A THAT IS CORRECT. THAT IS RIGHT.

A WERE YOL' ALSO PRESENT AT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT

WAS DISCUSSED ON .JANUARY 28TH, AND THAT WAS HELD SOMETIME

AFTER THAT?

A I AM NOT SURE WE HAD A PUBLIC HEARING ON .JANUARY

28TH. THAT IS WI-iEN WE ARRANGED TO HAVE ONE.

A DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY TIAVT A PUBLIC HEARING ON

FEBRUARY I+TH?

A WE MUST HAVE; YES. ^

A AND AT THAT PUBLIC HEARING-.WERE YOU PRESENT?

A YES.

A AND AT THAT PUBL I C I-IEAR ING, DI D YOU HEAR KELLY

ALEXANDER TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE STATE AND NAACP?

A YESi. YOU ARE CORREC'T. AND I WILL APOLOGIZE. BU

I F YOU WILL NOTICE ON MY I{OTES I GO FROM .JANUARY 28TH TO

FEBRUARY gTH. AND THAT IS WHY I SAID ON FEBRUARY gTH HENRY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FRYE BROUGHT IN THE PLAN BY THE BLACK LAWYERS FOR SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTS. BUT YOU ARE CORRECT; I HAD TO HAVE HEARD

IT AT THE PUBLIC HEARING AND THE DATE OF THAT WAS AS YOU

SAI D--W/iS I T FEBRUARY 4?

a THAT IS WHA]' I SAID.

A THAT iS CORRECT. I AM SORRY.

A TF.AT WAS PRIOR TO THE COMMITTEE MEETING AT WHICH

SENATOR FRYE INTRODUCED---

A (INTERPOSING) THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

A AND AT THAT PUBLIC HEARING, DID YOU ALSO HEAR

V(ILLIE LOVETT TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE ON

THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE?

A I AM SORRY; I CANIT REMEMBER THAT. FOR SOME

REASON THAT DATE IS OUT OF MY NOTES.

A DID YOU RECALL ROBERT DAVIS TESTIFYING ON BEHALF

OF THE. MECKLENBURG COUNTY BLACK POI-i T I.CAL CAUCUS I N FAVOR

OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A I AM SORRY. FOR SQME REASON, WHATEVER, THAT

DATE IS NOT IN MY NOTES.

A DO YOU HAVE ANY MEMORY INDEPENDENT OF YOUR NOTES

OF THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT TOOK PLACE ON FEBRUARY 4TH?

A YES,. I DO REMEMBER THE MEETING. AND I DO

REMEMBER PEOPLE TESTIFYING. BUT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR

ME TO TELL YOU WHAT THEIR NAMES WERE.

A IN FACT, THE_RE WERE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE WHO

F P. O. 8or 26lal
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PI-{CENIX, ARIZONA

TESTIFIED ON BEHALF OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA FOR THE SENATE?

A I AM SORRY; I DONIT KNOW. THE MINUTES WOULD TEL

YOU EXACTLY.

A SO YOU HAVE NO INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF THAT

MEETING?

A I DONIT. I DO HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THE MEETIN

I DO NOT HAVE AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF WHO BY NAME

S POKE .

A DO YOU HAVE AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF

WHETHER A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SPOKE ON BEHALF OF BLACK GROUPS

ACROSS THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?

A THERE HAD TO BE SEVERAL THERE.

A AND DO YOLJ HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF WHETHER THOSE

PEOPLE WHO SPOKE ON BEHALF OF BLACK GROUPS ACROSS THE STATE

OF NORTH CAROLINA SPOKE IN SUPPOP.T OF SINGLE MEMBER DI STRI C

A PROBABLY, BUl. I Al4 NOT POS I T I VE. I AM NOT TRY I N

TO BE DI FFICULT. BUT I AM .JUST TRYING TO BE HONEST.

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE FIRST SESSION FOR

THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT TOOK PLACE IN A LONG SESSION

FROM JANUARY THROUGH JULY; IS THAT CORRECT? THAT IS FOR

THE 1981 REAPPORTIONMENT?

A WE STARTED; YES, ON MARCH 19TH, 1981.

a AI'iD WHEN DID YOU END THAT FIRST SESSIOT'I?

A WELL, AT THE LAST MEETING DURING THE REGULAR

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SESS ION, I T WAS PROBABLY .JUNE l ITH. THEN WE HAD A SPEC IAL

SESSION IN OCTOBER. I BELI EVE WE HAD PERHAPS TWO OF THEI4

IN OCTOBER, AND THEN WE WENT BACK IN JANUARY.

A NOW, BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU HAD YOUR REGULAR

SESSION-.THAT IS, BETWEEN MARCH AND JUNE 11TH--WAS SENATOR

FRYE T. MEMBER OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON REAPPORTIONMENT?

A NO; HE WAS NOT.

A NOW, WHEN YOL' ORIGINALLY REDISTRICTED IN THE

1981 LONG SESSION, YOU FELT THAT YOU WERE UNDER A CONSTI-

TUTIONAL MANDATE NOT TO BREAK COUNTY LINES, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THAT IS A MANDATE OF THE NORTH CAROLINA

CONSTITUTION?

A THAT IS RIGHT.

a rN FACT, WHEN YOL| SUASTqUTNTLY RECONVENED IN

.JANUARY, 1g82, YOU RECONVENED BECAUSE YOU HAD HEARD THAT

YOti COULD IN FACT BREAK COUNTY- LINES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND YOU REMEMBER, DON'T YOU, THAT THE ATTORNEYS

WHO WERE ADVISING YOU TOLD YOt' THAT YOU COULD SPLIT

COUNTIES?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND YOU WERE TOLD IN GENERAL THAT IF YOU BREAK

ONE COUNTY LINE, YOTj COULD BREAK THEM ALL?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.I-HAT IS ALSO CORRECT.

A AND IN FACT, AS A RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF

JUSTICEIS OBJECTION TO THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL

AMENDMENT, YOU WERE PERMITTED TO BREAK COUNTY LINES WHEREVE

THAT WAS NECESSARY TO GET PREDOMINANTLY BLACK DISTRICTS?

A R I GHT.

A AND IN FACT, AS A RESULT OF THE NORTH CAROLINA

CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT IN YOUR OPINION, THE PROVISION_-

EXCUSE ME. AS A RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTICEIS

OBJECTION TO THE NORTH CAROLINA AMENDMENT, IN YOUR OPINION

THOSE AMENDMENTS WERE IITHROWN OUTII, IS THAT CORRECT?

A I AM SORRY; AMENDMENTS? I DON'T QUITE UNDER-

STAND YOU.

A THE AMENDMENTS THAT PROHIBITED DIVIDING COUNTIES

WERE THROWN OUT AS FAR AS YOU I^JERE CONCERNED AS A RESULT

OF THE DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTI CE I S OAUTCTION TO THOSE AMENDMENT

THAT IS CORRECT. WE COULD BREAK THE LINES.

AND WER.E YOU NOT IN.FACT TOLD THAT THE PROHIBITI

AGAINST COUNTY LINES THAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE LEGISLATIVE

CRITERIA THAT YOU REFERRED TO IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION-.

WERE YOLI NOT TOLD THAT THAT PROHIBITION WAS PRIMARILY AN

ANTI-GERRYMANDER PROVI S ION?

I DON ' T BE L I EVE I V./AS TOLD THAT.

IT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SENATOR, THAT

LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING CRITERIA THAT YOU REFERRED

THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I NDI CATED I'I1AT YOU COULD CROSS COUNTY L INES?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AI\ID THIS LEGISLATIVE CRITERIA WAS THE BASI S oN

WHI CH YOU RED I STR I CTED THE SENATE?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A NOW, AFTER THIS PARTICULAR LAWSUIT WAS FILED

AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD OB.JECTED TO BOTH THE

NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AS WELL AS TO THE

FIRST SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT PLAN---

A (IruTERPOSING) EXCUSE ME. WHAT DO YOU REFER TO

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE NORTH CAROLINA AMENDMENT? I AM NOT

FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH IT.

A THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT I THOUGHT YOU

WERE REFERRING TO, SENATOR, IS THE PROVISION AGAINST

DIVIDING COUNTIES.

THANK YOU. I JUST ACCEFT THAT AS PART OF THE

CONSTITUTION. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.

a oKAY. I AM SORRYT- I T HOPE I T I5 CLEAR.

A CLEAR.

, A AND THAT DOESNIT CHANGE ANY OF THE ANSWERS THAT

YOIJ GAVE ?

A NO; NO.

A NOW, AFTER THIS LAWSUIT WAS FILED AND THE

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD OBJECTED BOTH TO THE NORTH

CAROLINA CONSTITUTIOI'IAL PROVISION AS WELL AS TO THE FIRST

F P. O. Bot 2ilt!
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PRECISlON REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SENATE REAPPORTIOI.IMENT PLAN, YOU TOLD THE STAFF TO COME

UP WITIi GOOD PLANS THAT WOULD ENABLE OR ENHANCE THE

ELECTION OF MINORITIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A DEFINITELY.

A AND THIS MEANT DRAWING SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

WHERE A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WITHIN WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY

A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT WERE BLACK IF A SINGLE MEMBER

D I STR I CT WERE DRAWN?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A ATJD YOU WERE NOT TOLD OF ANY LEGAL REASON WHY

THIS COULD NOT BE DONE ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE?

A THAT IS RIGHT.

A AND YOU WERE NOT TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IT

COULD ONLY BE DONE iF THE PLAN T,/ERE GERRYMANDERED?

A NO.

a AND YOU TJERE ADVISED BY ine STAFF OR By THE

COUNSEL I,/HO WERE RETAINED THAT THEY WERE LOOKING SPECIFI-

CALLY AT MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO.SEE IF A 65 PERCENT MA.JORITY

BLACK DISTRICT COULD BE DRAWN?

A WE TALKED ABOUT THAT; YES.

.iUDGE PHI LI-iPS: WE WI LL AD.JoURN FOR TODAY.

(THE PROCEEDING WAS, RECESSED AT 4:]O P.M.,

TO RECONVENE ON TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, 1983,

AT 9:OO A.M.)

F P. O. &r 2ll*l
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CERTIFICATE

I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE

PRECEDING 92 PAGES REPRESENT A TRUE AND

ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD

oN MONDAY, AUGUST 1, 1ggl, AT RALEIGH,

NORTH CAROLINA.

THIS, THE 4TH DAY OF AUGUST, tggl.

JO B. BUSH, CVR
OFFICIAL. REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2alat
LJ R.hach, xorrh c.D[m 2r!tt