Trial Transcript Volume 6
Public Court Documents
August 4, 1983

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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 6, 1983. f5ff116f-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/3dcfa32f-e413-4d6c-a396-9922879b0295/trial-transcript-volume-6. Accessed July 16, 2025.
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yl,lti 1 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 IIJ THE UN I TED STI\TES D I STR I CT COURT FOR TllE EASTERN D I STR I CT OF NORTH CAROL I I.lA RALEIGH DIVISION RALPH GINGLES, ET AL., ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) B1-201-CIV-5 RUFUS EDMISTEN, ETC., ET AL., ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL" B1-1066-Crv-5 JAMES B. HUt.lT, LJ R., ET AL., JOHN .J. CAVANAGH , EF ALEX K. BROCK, ETC., ET AL., ETC., AL. 82-5 45-C I V- 5 DEFENDANTS. TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON PHILLIPS THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T. DUPREE, 1,R., THE HONORABLE W. EARL BRITT PBECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2tlcl lJ R.bich. ionh c.Etro 27arr 1 2 3 997 AT RALEIGH: MONDAY, AUGUST L, 198] VOLUME 6 OF 8 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. 4 b 6 7 8 I l0 l1 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 l8 19 20 2l 22 OQ 24 25 MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor lArB u Rrbhh, Honn C..oaln. 2nrt egE I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2r q, OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA I\PPEARANCES ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS: LESLIE J. WINNER, ESQUIRE CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER SU I TE 7 30 , EAST I NDEPENDENCE PLAZA 951 SOUTH INDEPENDEI.ICE BOULEVARD cHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202 ARTHUR .J. DONALDSON, ESQU I RE BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER. 6 KENERLY ]09 NORTH MAIN STREET SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144 ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQUIRE P. O. BOX 321+5 GREENSBORO, NORTH C/IROLINA 27402 LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, II.IC. 1O COLUI4BUS CIRCLE SUITE 2O3O NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS: JERRIS LEONARD, ESQUIRE KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE 900 17TH STREET, N..W. V,JASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE POST OFFICE BOX 629 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602 H P. O. Bor 2ltGg LJ Arbtcal ,\hdh c.Elil 2rolr 93S) I o 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 l5 16 17 18 19 20 2r .tq 23 24 oR. PBECISION HEPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IABLE OF CONTENTS W I TNESS D I RECT CRO.SS. RED I RECT RECROSS EXAM JOSEPH S. FARRELL By MR. LEONARD r002_1u34 1062-1u63 BY MS. WINNER r0l+-1u62 BY JUDGE PHILLIPS MARSHALL ARTHUR RAUCH BY MR. LEONARD r06+-1u78 tsY MS. GUINIER r0Zy-1U87 l06r-1u64 EXHIBITS NUMBE R DE FEI.IDANT DESCRIPTION MARKED RECEIVED 50 EDITORIAL FROM RALtsIGH TIMES 1U29 IO]U 51 TDIToRIAL FRoM nnurlen rIMEs r00z t00l F P, O.8or 2tlGit u R.blch, Nodn C.ro{^r 276il rOti0 a I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t rr., 23 24 25 FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 2:00 P.M. THIS CAUSE CAME THE HOI,.IORABLE J. AUGUST t, tggl, ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL BEFORE DICKSON PHILLIPS, ON MONDAY AT RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA. JUDGE DUPREE: GOOD AFTERNOON. JUDGE PHILLIPS: GooD AFTERNooN. I BELIEVE WE HAVE ONE EVIDENTIARY MATTER THAT WAS LEFT PENDING--A DEPOS ITION. MS. i^/INNER: YES, SIR. ON YOUR DESK YOU WILL FIND IN FRONT OF YOU COPIES OF ALL THE DEPOSITIONS THAT WE HAD OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. I HAD PREVIOUSLY COPIED THE WHOLE DEPOSITIONS EXCEPT FOR SENATOR MILLS'DEPOSITION. AT' THIS TIME I DO NOT OBJECT TO INTRODUCING ALL oF ALL. OF THEM EXCEPT FOR SENATOR *raar, ALTHOUGH I WOULD POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE.SUBSTANTIAL PARTS OF TERRY SULLIVAN I S !'/HICH HAS TO DO WITH CONGRESSIoNAL REDISTRICTING AND ARE IN THAT VEIN TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. I DON'T MIND THEIR BEING IN THE RECORD. AS TO SENATOR MILLS I DEPOSITION, HI S DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN ON TWO DIFFERENT MATTERS. ONE WAS HIS ROLE ON THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE AND HOW THE LEGISLATURE WAS DEALII'IG WITH LOCAL LEGISLATION. AND THE OTHER PART OF IT I-1AD TO DO WITH HIS PERS-ONAL FEELINGS ABOUT SINGLE MEMBER PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or ltrtt! Ll e.l.llh. Nodh c.rotn. 216l I 0 {_}i. o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l al., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.361e 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA DISTRICTS. WE FiAD OFFERED IN ONLY THOSE PARTS THAT HAD TO DO WITH HOW THE LEGISLATURE DEALT WITH LOCAL BILLS, AND I DO OBJECT TO THEIR INTRODUCING THE OTHER PART WHICH IS A WHOLE TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTER. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONIT YOU DO THIS? WH DONIT YOU WRITE A FORMAL OBJECTION AND FILE IT IN THE RECORD IDENTI FYING SPECI FICALLY THOSE PORTIONS TO I^/HICH YOU LODGE AN OBJECTION. AND I^'E WILL RULE SPECIFICALLY ON IT. BUT I DONIT THINK WE OUGHT TO HOLD UP THE PROCEEDINGS HERE. b/E h,ILL GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC RULING ON IT SO YOU WILL KNOW THE WAY I{E V I EI^J I T. MS. WINNER: ALSO, BEFORE THIS CAME UP I HAD ALREADY MADE THESE COPIES. AND I DID NOT COPY THE wHoLE DEPOSITION. SO ALTHOUGH IT IS tN THE RECORD, yOU DO NOT EACH HAVE THE WHOLE MILLSI DEPOSITION BEFORE YOU RIGHT NOW. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS IN THE RECORD. AND IF YOU WILL, MAKE VERY SPECINIC THE PORTION OF THE DEPOSI. TION THAT YOU HAVE OBJECTIONS SO THAT WE WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TALK I NG ABOUT. I.JE W I LL RULE ON I T. NOW, WHEN yOU FILE YOUR OBJECTION AND MR. LEONAR SEES IT, IF HE WANTS TO FILE A VERY BRIEF RESPONSE_-I HOPE WE DONIT NEED TO GET INTO FULL SCALE BRIEFING ON IT. BUT IF HE WANTS TO FILE JUST A VERY BRIEF RESPONSE TO IT, PUT THAT II'I THE RECORD TOO. WE I^/ILL RULE ON IT. F P. o. lor 2alcs LJ i.neh. i€nh C.rolril 2ttil 0u2 I a, 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 1l 12 13 14 15 16 17 _18 19 20 2l ar, 23 24 25 ALL RtGHT, MR. LEONARD. I'1R. LEONARD: THE STATE CALL.S JT)SEPH FARRELL. ( WHEREUPON, JOSEPH S. FARRELL WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: ) DIRECT EXAMINATION 2202 P.M BY I',IR. LEONARD: A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE, AND TELL THE COURT WHERE YOU LIVE? A MY I.IAME IS JOSEPI] S. FARRELL. I LIVE IN CHAPEL HiLL, NORTH CAROLINA. a WHAT rs YouR occuPATroN? ' A PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC LAW AND GOVERNMENT, UNIVER- SITY OF NORTH CAROLINA A; CHAPEL HILL. A I CALL YOUR ATTENT I.ON, MR . FARRE LL, TO DEFENDANTSI EXHiBIT 51. I BELIEVE YOU HAVE A COPY OF IT IN THE MATERIALS THAT ARE BEFORE YOU. I ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT? (DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NO. 51 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) A IT IS A COPY OF AN EDITORIAL FROM THE RALEIGH T I MES--- PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA - P. O Bor Atd lJ nd.tr. iodh c.rdrM 2t6ir r.0 U:] 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a 51? A 51? A IT IS YOUR CURRICULUM VLJAE. A OH. HIS IS BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION AND SOME OF THE PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITIES THAT DESCRIBES MY BACKGROUND. MR. LEONARD: THE DEFENSE WOULD OFFER EXHIBIT 51 INTO EVIDENCE. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE PLAINTIFF HAS NO OB!'ECTION TO IT. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED I.,/ITHOUT O BJ ECT I ON. (OTNEruONNTSI EXHIBIT NO. 51 WAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) BY MR. LEONARD: A MR. FARRELL, TELL THE COURT VERY BRIEFLY WHAT YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND IS AND YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE? A I HAVE A BACHELOR OF LAWS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA, CHAPEL HILL; A-MASTER OF LAWS FROM YALE UNIVERSITY. I JOINED THE FACULTY OF THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY IN JUNE OF 1964. MY FIELD FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS HAS BEEN GENERAL COUNTY GOVERNMENT. THE INSTITUTE ALLOTS SUB.JECT MATTER FIELDS AMONG ITS FACULTY IN MUCH THE SAME WAY THAT MOST ANY UNIVERSITY DEPARTMENT DOES. MY FI ELD I S TO BE CONCERNED I,.,I TH COUNT I ES--THE STRUCTURES OF COUNTIES, GOVERNMENTAL POWERS OF COUNTIES. - P. O. eor 2,416l! LI tubreh, Nodn crelm 2tcrr L0a 4 o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ro 13 14 15 r6 t1 18 19 20 2t ,o 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 77q.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AS A GENERAL PROPOSITION, I HANDLE MATTERS THAT DO NOT FALL WITIIIN THE SPECIAL CONFIDENCE OF OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FACULTY. I AM RESPONS I BLE FOR A B I ENN I AL SCHOOL FOR NEI.I COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, TWO ANNUAL CONFERENCES FOR COUNTY ATTORNEYS. I AM THE AUTHOR OF WI1AT I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I THE STANDARD TEXTBOOK ON COUNTY GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLI WHICH IS NOI^/ IN ITS THIRD EDITiON AND WILL SOON BE IN ITS FOURTH EDITION. DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENC HAVE YOU HAD E)(PER I ENCE DEAL I NG WI TH THE LEG I SLATiJRE? A BEGINNING IN 1969 I.WAS CHIEF CONSULTANT TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT STUDY COMMISSION CREATED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF 1967. THAT COMMISSION WAS CHARGED WITH INVESTIGATING THE ENTIRE STATUTORY LAW GOVERNING LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA. AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT WORK, I FIRST ASSISTED THE COMMISSION IN PRESENTING JTS LEGISLATIVE PACKAGE TO THE 1969 GENERAL ASSEMBLY. THAT PRODUCEDJ-ONE OF THE RECOMMENDA TIONS THAT GREW OUT OF THAT COMMISSION WAS A RESTRUCTI.IRING OF THE METHOD FOR HANDLING LOCAL BILLS IN THE GENERAL AS S EMB LY. AS PART OF THAT RESTRUCTURING PROCESS, I WAS CONSULTANT TO THE COMMITTEES IN BOTH HOUSES THAT HANDLED LOCAL BILLS IN THE t69_SESSION, AGAIN IN THE t7l SESSION, F P, O. Eor 2atalt lJ Rrl.|$, Nodn Crrollm 276tt 1005 o 1 , o 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 L7 18 19 20 2l <rat 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AGAIN iN THE '73 SESSICN, AND I BELIEVE Iti 175. SINCE ,75 I TRADED OFF WITH MY COLLEAGUE/ DAVID LAWRENCE, AND I GO EVERY OTHTR SESSION AND HE GOES bVERY OIHER SE5SIUN. A DO YOU CONTINUE TO CONSULT WiTH ANY COMMITTEES OF THE LEGISLATURE WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL LEGISLATION? A I DID NOT IN 198]. I DiD IN 1981. I EXPECT I PROBABLY WI LL AGAIN IN 1985. A YOUR BiOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND AS YOU HAVE SUB- MITTED IT iN EXHiBIT 5L LISTS THE VARIOUS PUBLICATIONS THAT YOU AUTHORED OR CO-AUTHORED OR EDITED THAT RELATE TO LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLII.IA? A YES. a Do You KNoh, How THE BOUNDARY LINES FOR COUNTIES IN NORTH CAROLiNA l^/ERE FIRST DRAWN? A YES. THERE IS NO GENERAL LAW PROCEDURE FOR EITHER CREATING A COUNTY OR FOR CNAIIETruE ITS BOUNDARIES. THE LINES OF COUNTIES NNI ORAWN BY A SPECIAL ACT OF THE LEGISLATURE. THE FIRST COUNTY BOUNDARIES WERE DRAWN BY THE LORDS PROPRIETORS IN 1670 WHEN THE ALBEMARLE COUNTIES WERE SET UP AS SEPARATE PRECII..ICTS. A NUMBER OF THE COUNTIES WER CREATED BY THE ACTS OF THE COLONIAL ASSEMBLY. SINCE THE REVOLUTION, OBVIOUSLY, THE COUNTIES HAVE BEEN CREATED BY AN ACT OF THE LEGISLATURE. THE METHOD BY WIJICH COUNTY BOUNDARIES ARE CHOOSE F P, O.8ox 2Eltl LJ R.heh, }{om C.roxn. 2]!ll 006 1 2 3 4 c 6 7 I 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 oE PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA HAS BEEN PRIMARILY AN AITEI4PT TO MAKE IT CONVENIENT FOR PEOPLE TO GET TO THE S[:AT OF GOVERNMENT AND TO DEFINE GEOGRAPHICAL AREASTHAT CORRESPOND AS WELL AS ONE CAN TO COMMUNITIES OF INTERESi, PEOPLE THAT GENERALLY KNOW EACH OTHER, THAT ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER, THAT HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON. ANY LINE DRAWN ON A MAP IS GOII.IG TO BE TO A GREATER OR LESSER EXTENT ARBITRARY UNLESS YOU HITPPEN TO BE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE NA-TURAL PHY S I CAL BOUNDAR I E S. THE BOUNDARIES OF OUR COUNTIES--MANY OF THEM DO FOLLOW NATURAL PHYSICAL BOUNDARIES. OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RIVERS, MOUNTAIN R IDGES, OCEAl.l SOUNDS, WHATEVER, DON I T. BUT 0N THE WHOLE THEY DO TEND TO FOLLOW COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST. i SUPPOSE THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT I COULD CITE OF THOSE ARE THE ORIGINAL ALBEMARLE COUNTIES, PASQUOTANK, CAMDEN, CURRITUCK, CHOWAN. THOSE COUNTIES--IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAP, YOU WOULD THINK WHY DO WE NEED A COUNTY TI]AT lS ONLY 10 MILES WIDE AND 25 MILES LONG. IT DOESNIT TAKE YOU LONG TRAVELING ACROSS THE SURFACE OF THE LINE TO DISCOVER THAT THOSE BOUNDARIES ARE NOT ARBITRARY, BUT THAT THE COUNTIES CONSIST ESSENTIALLY OF RIDGES OF HIGH GROUND CULTIVATED, LIVABLE AREAS DIVIDED BY RIVERS AND RIVER SWAMP UNTIL FAIRLY RECENTLY IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET FROM ONE COUNTY TO ANOTHER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN I WAS A CHILD, THE ONLY WAY TO GET FROM ELIZABETH CITY TO H P. O. Bor i,tlG! lJ R.bhtr. Nodh C.roltu ?rGlt i0{J7 I o 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CAMDEN couNl'Y v'lt\s ro cRoss WHAT t^,AS KNowN L-ocALLy AS THE G R EAT F LOAT I I..IG ROAD . THE CAMDEN COUNTY COURTHOUSE AS THE CROW FLIES IS LESS THAN A MILE OR PROBABLY ABOUT A MILE FROM THE PASQUOTANK COUNTY COURTHOUSE. IT MIGHT AS WELL BE 10 MILES AWAY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO GET THERE I,JAS TO CROSS A SWAMP THE STATE HAD BUILT AS AN EXPERIMENT A ROAD ACROSS MICHELLE ISLAND WHICH SEPARATES PASQUOTANK AND CAMDEN THAT I^/As SUPPoSED To FLoAT. THE PROBLEM WAS IT DIDN'T FLoAT. WHENEVER YOU HAD A GOOD BIG RAIN--MY FAMILY LIVED iN THE SOUTHERN PART OF CAMDEN COUNTY. h/E WOULD GO OVER TO VISIT AUNT SELMA EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, AND IF YOU HAD A GOOD BIG RAIN YOU LITERALLY DROVE ACROSS A BRIDGE THA WAS DEFINED ONLY BY THE RAILINGS. AS A CHILD IT I^JAS QUITE AN EXCITING THING TO BE AS ALMOST AS IF YOU WERE WALKING ON THE WATER BECAUSE THE WATER WOULD '.'"*O"Y BE SOMETIMES SIX OR EIGHT INCHES DEEP COMPLETELY ACROSS THE ROAD. MY POINT IS IT WAS.DIFFICULT TO GET FROM THE SUBTLE PARTS OF CAMDEN COUNTY TO THE SUBTLE PARTS OF PASQUOTANK COUNTY AND WAS WITHIN MY MEMORY. OTHER COUI'ITIES.-THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A NATURAL BOUNDARY. AN EXAMPLE OF A STRAIGHT LINE DRAWN ON THE MAP WOULD BE ORANGE COUNTY. WHEN ORANGE COUNTY WAS CREATED LONG BEFORE THE REVOLUTION, IT I^/AS THE FRONTIER. THE SETTLEMENT WAS AT HI LLS-BOROUGH. THE CENTER OF THE COUNTY F P. O. 8or ,1.:t l. R.brdr. rrodn C.roh 270I LOUI] I o 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 ro 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 976.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IVAS BAS I CALLY H I LLSBOROUGH, A VERY I-ARGE COUNTY, LARGELY BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING ESSENTIALLY BUT WOODS AND WILDLIFE IN MOST OF IT, THE SETILEMENT BEING AROUND I]ILLS_ BOROUGH. ASSETTLEI'lENTDEVELOPED,PIECESOFTHECOUNTY WERE CHOPPED AND NEI.I ONES SET UP. ONE AREA OF SETTLEMENT THAT OCCURRED FAIRLY EARLY ON WAS PITTSBORO. SO THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY WAS LOCKED OFF ORANGE AND ERECTED AS CHATHAM COUNTY ABOUT 1760, I BELIEVE. THAT LEFT THE REST OF IT. LATER ON AS THE NORTHERN AREAS BEGAN TO BE SETTLED, PERSON COUNTY AI.JD CASHWELL COUNTY WERE CHOPPED OFF THE TOP AND EECAME SEPARATE COUNTIES. THE CENTERS OF SETTLEMENT THERE WERE YANCEYVILLE AND ROXBORO, BASiCALLY IN THE CENTER OF THE AREA--STILL ARE. AGAiN, LATER THE wESTERN PARTS OF ORANGE WERE DIVIDE; OFF, FIRST INTO GUILFORD COUNTY WITH TNT CTruTEN OF SETTLEMENT BASICALLY AT GREENSBORO. LA'TER THE EASTERN PART OF GUI LFORD COUNTY WAS CONVERTED INTO ALAMANCE. TIIE CENTER OF SETTLEMENT THERE WA BURLINGTON. AND THE LAST PART OF THAT PROCESS WAS WHEN DURHAM COUNTY I.JAS CREATED ABOUT 1870 OR THEREABOUTS AFTER THE RAILROAD HAD COME THROUGH DURHAM, DURHAM GREW UP' DURHAM WAS A RAILROAD TOWN. THERE WAS NOTHING THEF:E BEFORE TI-tE RAI LROAD. AND THAT BECAME A COMMUI.IITY OF INTEREST IN THE F P. O.8ox 2Elltg LJ Rrbroh, Nonh c.,ot'o 2lor! iL 0LiI; I 2 3 1 o 6 t 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 r8 19 20 2l oo 23 24 o< PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SET-UP. SO ORANGE COUNTY IS WHAT IS LEFT WITH ITS COLONIAL CENTER OF SETTLEMENT BEING AT HILLSBOROUGH AND ITS LATER CENTER OF POPULATION CENTER OF SETTLEMENT BEING AT CHAPEL HILLO OF COURSE, AT THE TIME OF THE REVOLUTION CHAPEL HILL DID NOT EXIST. CHAPEL HILL DID NOT EXIST UNTIL THE UNIVERSITY WI.S ESTABLISHED THERE IN ABOUT I789, I BELIEVE. YOU CAN GO THROUGH A SIMILAR LITANY WITH VIRTUALLY EVERY COUNTY IN THE STATE. THE BOUNDARIES WERE DRAI./N FOR THE CONVEN I ENCE OF THE PEOPLE. THEY TENDED TO DEFINE COMMUNITiES OF II..ITEREST THAT HAD GROWN UP BEFORE THE COUNTY. I THINK INTERESTINGLY THE LAST TWO COUNTiES..THE LAST TWO COUNTIES, BY THE WAY, WERE CREATED IN 1911, HOKE AND AVERY. SO THE MAP WAS FLESHED OUT BY 1911. OCCURRED IN HAS THIS LI AND HOKE. IN 1911. THE LAST I'IAJO.R CHANGE I N COUNTY BOUNDAR I ES 1959. IF YOU WILL LOOK ON THE MAp, MOORE COUNT TTLE APPEI'iDAGE THAT STICKS DOWN TOWARD CUMBERLAN THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PART OF HOKE COUNTY, CREATED AGAIN, IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE MAP YOU WILL SEE THE FORT BRAGG I,IILITARY RESERVATION COVERS THE ENTIRE-- VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE NORTHERN PART OF HOKE AND EXTENDS INTO CUMBERLAND. THE ROADS THAT CROSS FORT BRAGG WERE OBVIOUSLY CLOSED AFTER IT BECAME_USED AS A MILITARY BASE. IT WASNIT F P. O. Bor a'ttag lJ R.blgn. xom C.rex^. ,arr i_0Lc I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 9 l0 11 L2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA TOO SAFE TO BE DRIVINIG ALONG THE ROADS AND DODGING ARTILLERY SHELLS. SO YOU COULD NOT GET FROM THE hIORTHERN PART OF HOKE COUNTY iO RAEFORD I,JITHOUT GOING ALL THE WAy AROUND THROUGH FAYEI'TEVILLE OR GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH CARTHAGE AND COMING BACK DOWN. IT WAS VERY INCONVENIEI'IT FOR THE F'EOPLE I^IHO LIVED THERE. SO IN 1959, WtTH EVERyBODyTS CONSENT, THE NORTHERN TIP Of' HOKE WAS ADDED TO MOORE. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, THE BOUNDARIES THAT YOU SEE ON THE MAP WERE--HAD I.IOT ESSENT IALLY BEEi..I CHANGED I N ANY SIGNIFiCAI.IT DEGREE SINCE 19I1. A WHAT ROLE DO THE COUNTIES PLITY IN THE DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES? A AN INCREASING--WELL, HISTORICALLy--- .JUDGE PHI LLIPS: ( INTERPOS ING) ANE YOU GO I NG TO QUAL I FY TI- I S GOOD EXPERT A; AN EXPERT? MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I TENDER MR. FARRELL AS AN EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT OF LOCAL STATE GOVERNMENT. MS. WINNER: GOVERNMENT OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT? IS THAT LOCAL AND STATE MR. LEONARD: LOCAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MS. WINNER: NO OBJECTION. JUDGE PHILLIPS: HE IS QUALIFIED WITHOUT F P. O.8or 2tl(t lJ Rtrdgh, Nonh Ct,orm 2r0lr 0l_ t I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .rq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085 779.3619 876.a571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA OBJECT ION IN THE MANNER IDENT I FI ED BY COUNSEL AND HI S EVIDENCE WILL BE RECEIVED IN THAT LIGIlT. BY MR. LEONARD: A THE QUESTION, MR. JUDGE PHILLIPS: FARRELL, t^,AS--- ALREADY RECEIVED WILL BE TREATED ( INTERPOSING) THAT IN THAT LIGHT. BY MR. LEONARD: WHAT ROLE THE COUNTY PLAYS WITH RESPECT TO THE DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES? FROM THE BEG I NN I NG, COUNT I E S I^'ERE CREATED AS THE ADMINISTRATIVE SUBDIVISIONS OF THE STATE FOR Ti]E DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES. IT IS INTERESTING--EVERY TIME I GO TO THE LITTLE CAPITOL I CANIT HELP--I AM STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT WHEN THAT WAS BUILT IN 1840 IT HOUSED ALL OF STATE GOVERNMENT. IT WAS THE ONLY STATE OFFICE BUILDING THERE WAS. THE ENTIRE MECHANISM FOR THE DELIVERY OF SERVICE PROVIDED BY THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA WAS DONE THROUGH COUNTIES AND THROUGH THE PERSONS ELECTED AND APPOINTED AS PUBLIC OFFICERS IN THOSE COUNTIES. THE STATE DID NOT EVEN HAVE ITS OWN REVENUE COLLECTION MECHANISM. THE STATETS MAIN SOURCE OF REVENUE I,JAS THE PROPERTY TAX THAT WAS COLLECTED BY THE COUNTY SHERIFF AND SENT INTO THE STATE TREASURER AND AN ANNUAL SETTLEMENT WAS MADE BETWEEN THE SHERIFF AND THE STATE TREASURER. - P. O. Bor 2tral LJ erbigh. tfrh C.ro{6. zrGtr 1012 a I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PFECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA THE COURT SYSTEM IN THOSE C,AYS WAS--THE STATE, COURSE, HAD SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES AND SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHO MET IN THE--IHE SUPREME COURT, OF COURSE, MET IN THE CAPITOL. THE ENTIRE MECHANISM FOR ADMINISTRERING JUSTICE IN THE STATE WAS DONE THROUGH LOCAL OFFICIALS, THE SHERIFF, COURT OF COURT, SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS. SO COUNTIES CONTINUE--THAT iS WHAT THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SET UP FOR. THEY CONTINUE TO PERFORM THE HIS- TORIC FUNCTIONS. THE COUNTY IS STILL THE PRIMARY MECHANISM FOR THE DELIVERY OF EDUCATION, I.iEALTH, SOC IAL SERVI CES, LAN RECORDS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAMS. I GUESS- I .JUST COVERED ABOUT 9O PERCENT OF THE MONEY SPENT LOCALLY. SO THAT IS ENOUGH OF THE LITANY--ELECTIONS. ELECTIONS? YES. CAN YOU TELL US HOW NORTH CAROLINA COMPARES TO OTHER STATES WITH RESPECT TO ITS RELIANCE ON THE COUNTIES AS AN INSTRUMENTALITY FOR THE DELIVERANCE OF STATE SERVICES EVERY STATE RELIES ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO A GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE TO DELIVER STATE SERVICES. NORTH CAROLINA PROBABLY IS ABOUT AVERAGE iN THAT SENSE ACROSS THE NATION. THERE ARE THREE BASIC MODELS OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT WHICH YOU WILL FIND AROUND THE COUNTRY. NEW ENGLAND USES A o F P. O. Bor 2tl6 u n.beh, xonh C.rox^. 27arr 1013 I o 3 4 b 6 1 8 I l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE TOWN AS THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCK FOR ITS COUNTY GOVERNMENT. h,HILE THE NEI^/ ENGLAND STATES HAVE COUNTIES, THE DO NOT HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF FUNCTION ANYMORE. THE SECOND MODEL IS..OP.IGINALLY DEVELOPED, I BELIEVE, IN PENNSYLVANIA--USES THE TOWNSHIP AS THE BASIC ORGANIZiNG FUNCTION. YOU WILL FIND TOWNSHIP GOVERNMENT IN PENNSYLVANIA, NEW YOR.K, OHiO, MICHIGAN. STATES OF THE OLD NORTHWEST TERRITORY TENDED TO FOLLOW THE PENNSYLVANIA-NEW YORK MODEL. TIlE REST OF THE COUNTRY I.'ITH THE E.XCEPTIOT,I OF LOUISIANA, WHICII WAS ALWAYS AN EXCEPTION, USES COUNTIES AS THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCK. ALL OF THE STATES IN THE SOUTH- EAST DO. VIRTUALLY ALL THE STATES WHICH I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IN THE MIDWEST AND THE FAR WEST-.I AM SORRY-.THE FAR WEST USE COUNTIES. WESTERN STATES TEND TO USE THE TOWNSHIP THE NORTHWEST TERRITORY. WE USE THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT MODEL, COUNTY GOVERNMENT BEING THE BASIC MECHANiSM FOR THE DELIVERY OF MOST OF THE GOVERNMENTAL SERVICES PROVIDED TO CITIZENS. AL PORTIONS OF THE STATE ARE I,JITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF A COUNTY THERE IS NO PART THAT IS NOT IN A COUNTY. VIRGINIA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOESNIT FOLLOW THAT MODEL. a I woulD LIKE TO ASK YOU TO FOCUS FOR A FEW MOMENTS ON INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES IN NORTH CAROLINA. HOW MANY INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES ARE THERE IN THE F P. O. &r itrta, lJ Rrbleh. No.th C..oliM a7!il i 014 I 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAL€IGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA STATE? A DEPEND I NG ON IJOW YOU COUNT, YOU W t LL COUl.lT EITHER 458 OR 474. IF YOU COUNT--YOU COULD COUNT HIGHER THAN THAT. IF YOU COUNT ALL MUNICIPALITIES THAT EXIST ON pApER, YOU MIGr-rT COME UP WITH AS MANY AS 500. SOME OF THEM STILL EXIST ON PAPER. THE SITE HAS BEEN LOST. I GUESS THE BEST EXAMPLE IS ANSONVILLE IN ANSON COUNTY WI.IICH STILL EXIST AS FAR AS THE LEGISLATURE IS CoNCERNED, BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THE SITE IS. SO YOU ELIMINATE THE GHOST TOWNS. YOIJ COME UP WITH 474 THAT ARE INCORPORATED AND ACTUALLY ETECT MUNiCIPAL OFFICIALS. I F YO(J THEN ELIi.4INATE THOSE THAT DON I T ACTUALLY PERFORM ANY FUNCTIONS SUFFICIENT TO QUALIFY THEM FOR GASO L I NE TAX ALLOCAT I ON S FROM THE STATE, YOU COME DOI'JN TO 458. a Now, oF THE 458, HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE A POPULA- TION OF OVER 2r500 PEOPLE? THAT IS POPULATION UNDER 2r5OO? A 357. a AND HOW MANY HAVE A POPULATION OF OVER 50r000? A EIGHT. A WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION OF NORTH CAROLINA RESIDES IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS? A 57.3 PERCENT, THE HIGHEST IN THE NATION, BY THE WAY. A THERE HAS BEEN SOME TESTIMONY, MR. FARRELL, IN F P. O. &r irtl(t LJ R.beh. xonh C.rolrn. 27Gtl rL0i.5 o I ,, 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L ,q 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THIS CASE ]'HAI'COUNTIES AIiE DECLINING WITH RESPECT TO'I-HEI RELATIVE IMPORTANCE IN THE CITY, STATE, COUNTY, FEDERAL REI.ATIONSHIP OF THE ADMINISTRATION OF GOVERNMENT AND THE DELIVERY OF SERVICES. DO. YOU HAVE AN AND COUNTIES IN THE STATE OR NOT THERE IS A DECLINE GOVERNMEN T ? OPINION WHEN YOU COMPARE THE CITI OF NORTH CAROLINA AS TO WHETHER IN THE IMPORTANCE OF COUNTY AND IT IS THE EXACT INCREASING IN IM- A OPPOSITE. PORTANCE. I DO HAVE SUCH AN OPINION, IN MY OPINION COUNTIES ARE GIVE THE COURT SOME EXAMPLES OF REASONS AS TO WHY YOU HAVE THAT OPINION. WELL, I CAN USE I'HREE FUNCTIONAL AREAS FOR EXAMPLE. THE PAI'TERN HAS TENDED TO BE THAT SOME SERVICES FIRST BECOME PROVIDED BY CITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE DEMANDED O NEEDED BY PEOPLE WHO '-'UEI* URBAN AREAS. THE SECOND STAGE OF THAT IS THAT PEOPLE WHO DONIT LIVE IN URBAN AREAS AND HAVE THOSE SERVICES AVAILABLE, BEGIN TO WANT THEM. THE FIRST STAGE iS COUNTY BEGINS TO PROVIDE THEM, AND THE FINAL STAGE IS THAT THE COUNTY TAKES OVER THE FUNCTION AND THE CITIES GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS ALTOGETHER. I'IOW, THE THREE BEST EXAMPLES OF THAT ARE LIBRARIES, HOSPITALS AND LAND FILLS--SOLID WASTE DISPOSALS. LIBRARIES ORIGINALLY WE.RE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY PROVIDED BY F P. O. Aor 2al{B u tLbrch. xonh c.r*n. ztctt i0 L6 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 ,1 22 23 24 oE PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CITIES, I SUPPOSE THE REASON BEING THAT BEFCRE THE DAYS OF AUTOMOBILES, YOU COULDNIT VERY EASILY GET TO A PUBLIC LIBRARY UNLESS YOU LIVED CLOSE TO IT. SO THEY TENDED TO BE IN THE CITIES. NOW I DON I T HAVE AN EXACT COUNT, BUT THERE ARE VERY FEW MUNICIPAL LIBRARIES LEFT. THEY ARE ALL NOW COUNTY LIBRARIES. HOSPITALS I'JERE ORIGINALLY I"IUNICIPAL FUNCTIONS. THEY ARE NOW VIRTUALLY EXCLUSIVELY COUNTY FUNCTIONS. THE MOST RECENT THING HAS BEEN SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL. NEARLY EVERY CITY IS GETTING OUT OF THE LAND FILL BUSINESS AS RAPIDLY AS IT CAN AI'ID THE COUNTY I S TAKING IT OVER. SO THE COUNTIES ARE BECOMING--THEY ARE PROVIDING MORE SERVICES THAT WE TRADITIONALLY HAVE THOUGHTOF AS BEING MUNiCIPAL SERVICES AND ARE BECOMING MUCH MORE FREE STANDING LOCAL GOVERNMENT UNITS IN THE BEST SENSE OF THAT TERM AS CONTRASTED TO PURELY ADMINISTRATIV; SUBDIVISIONS OF THE STATE. SO I THiNK THE SINCE--IN MY LIFETIME, AT COUNTY ROLE IS GROWING--HAS BEEN ANY RATE--MEASURABLE. IES IN NORTH CAROLINA THAT HAVEARE THERE COUNT NO INCORPORATED AREAS? YE5, CAMDEN AND CURRITUCK. A ARE THERE OTHER COUNTIES WHICH HAVE A SMALL NUMB OR RELATIVELY SMALL GEOGRAPHIC AREA THAT IS INCORPORATED? I DIDt!rT UT.tDERSTAND THE QUESTION. n P. O. Bor 2elt(l Ll R.bh+ Nonh C.otnr 2t!ll 017 I 2 3 4 D 6 7 8 I t0 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457t PHOENIX, ARIZONA ARE THERE COUNTIES THAT HAVE EITHER A SMALL NUMBER OI= INCORPORATED AREAS OR SMALL GEOGRAPHIC AREAS COMPARED TO THE ENTIRE COUNTY THAT ARE INCORPORATED? YES. I HAVE COUNTED. WELL, TERRELL COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS ONE TOI^/N, COLUMBI A, A VERY SMALL TOWN. HYDE COUNTY--I BELIEVE SWANN QUARTER IS THE ONLY INCORPORATED TOWN IN HYDE COUNTY. AND THAT IS BARELY MORE THAN A CROSS- ROADS. PAMLICO--THERE ARE A FEW IN PAMLICO. MOST OF THEM ARE VILLAGES.-ALL OF THEM ARE VILLAGES. IN THE FAR WEST MOST OR VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCORPORATED MUNCIPALITIES IN THE MOUNTAINS ARE BASICALLY VILLAGES. WE REALLY ONLY HAVE URBAN CONCENTRATIONS IN THIS STATE I N THE SO-CALLED P I EDMONT CRESENT RUI.IN I NG FROM RALE I G TO CHARLOTTE WITH SCATTERED EXCEPTIONS HITHER AND YON LIKE FAYETTEVI LLE AND WI LMINGTON. THE TYPICAL COUNTY HAS O*L OR TWO INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES THAT ARE LARGE ENOUGH THAT IF YOU DROVE THROUGH THEM YOU WOULD THINK YOU WERE IN A SMALL TOWN. PROBABLY iN TERMS OF NUMBERS, AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE INCORPORATED MUNICIPALITIES ARE SMALL ENOUGH THAT UNLESS YOU SAW THE SIGN WHICH SAYS 'INOW ENTERING MOUNT PLEASANT,'' FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WOULDNIT REALLY THINK YOU WERE IN MUCH OF A TOWN. A HOW DOES NORTH CAROLINA COMPARE WITH OTHER STATE WITH RE.SPECT TO THE PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION THAT LIVES IN F P. O. &r :,alGt lJ Rd.alh. |€nh C.rok[ arcrr i 01E o 1 o 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 r6 t7 18 19 20 2l ,, o1 21 25 I NCORPOP.ATED VERSUS UN I NCORPORATED AREAS ? IT IS THE HIGHEST IN THE COUNTRY--I-IVE IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS. THAT IS, BY THE WAY, WHERE THE POP- ULATION GROWTH IS OCCURRING AS WELL. THE PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION IN THE STATE THAT LIVE IN INCORPORATED MUNICIPAL TIES HAS BEEN ABOUT LEVEL FOR THE LAST--SINCE 1960. IT GOES UP VERY SLiGHTLY. THE GROWTH IS OCCURRING IN UNINCORPORATED RURAL AREAS. THERE ARE SUBDIVISIONS SPRINGING UP ALL OVER EVERY- WHERE. A WHAT IS THE COMPARISON OF NORTH CAROLINA TO OTHE STATES WiTH RESPECT TO THE ABILITY OF MUNICIPALITIES TO ANNEX UNINCORPORATED AREAS? A I THINK IT IS GENERALLY AGREED THAT THE NORTH CAROLINA ANNEXATION LAW IS THE MOST LIBERAL IN THE COUNTRY DEPENDING ON HOW YOU WANT TO USE TTINT TERM. AT LEAST IT IS EASIER IN NORTH CAROLINA FOR A MUI..IICIPALITY TO ANNIEX TERRITORY THAN ANY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY. A NOW, DOES THE COUNTY PLAY ANY OTHER ROLE IN NORTH CAROLINA OTHER THAN A PURELY GOVERNMENTAL ONE? IN MY OPiNION, COUNTIES, PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE OUTSIDE THE lNCORPORATED LIMITS OF CITIES AND TOWNS, THE COUNTY BECOMES ALMOST A, PART OF THE DEFINING CRITERIA YOU USE TO SAY WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU ARE FROM. IF YOU WERE TO ASK SOMEONE I,/HO GREW UP IN THE NORTHERN PART PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2ll(l u R.arch. Nodh C.7Cril t76il l- 019 I 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 1t 1(, 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 N 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX- ARIZONA OF PASQUOTANK COUNTY TO SAY TO THEM, IIYOU ARE FROM ELIZABETH CITY, ARENIT YOU?I' THEY WOULD SAY,'II CERTAINLY AM NOT. I AM FROM PASQUOTANK COUNTY OR I AM FROM NEW LAND,I THEY PROBABLY WOULD SPECIFICALLY SAY. THE PERCEPTIONS OF WHERE PEOPLE BELONG TENDS TO BE DEFINED BY WI.IAT COUNTY THEY ARE FROM. PEOPLE FROM CAMDE COUNTY ARE VERY DISTINCT ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT FROM PASQUOTANK OR THEY ARE NOT FROM CURRITUCK COUNTY. THEY ARE FROM CAMDEN COUNTY. AND IF YOU ARE FROM CAMDEN COUNTY, THAT IS THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN BE FROM BECAUSE THERE IS NO TOWN THERE. YOU CERTAINLY ARE NOT FROM ELIZABETH CITY. THE COUNTY, THEN, BECOMES-.IT IS ALMOST A CHICKE AND AN EGG ARGUMENT, WHETHER THE COUNTY CREATES THE COMMUNITY OR THE COMMUNITY CREATES THE COUNTY. I THINK THERE IS A LITTLE OF BOTH THERE. ,NCE THE POLITICAL SUBDi,,,,O* BOUNDARIES ARE DRAWN, PEOPLE THEN TEND.TO USE THOSE BOUNDARIES AS DEFINING THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO ORGANIZE THEMSELVES. EVERY--WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, EVERY RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION WITH WHICH I HAVE ANY FAMILIARITY USES COUNTIES TO DEFINE ITS DIOCESES OR CENTERS OR ITS CONFERENCES OR ITS ASSOCIATIONS OR WHATEVER THEY ARE CALLED. THEY DONIT DRAW FOR THEIR PURPOSES ARBITRARY LINES ON THE MAP. THEY WILL DEFINE THE DIOCESE AS A COLLECT I ON OF THE FOLLOI^J I NG COUNT I ES OR CENTERED I N THE COLLECTION OF THE FOLLOWING COUNTIES. F P. O.8or iitas u n.neh. tlodh C.roLil ,olr r0zc 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA CIVIC CLUBS TEND TO ORGANIZE THETR DISTRICT OR REGIONAL ORGANIZATIONS USING COUNTIES AS THE BUILDING BLOCKS. FRANCHISES FOR BUSINESSES, LIKE, I GUESS A COCA- COLA BOTTLINC FRANCHISE, IF IT IS A FAIRLY RURAL AREA, WILL BE IHAT "YOUR FRANCHISE C.OVERS THE FOLLOI,JING COUNTIES." SO, THE COUNTY BECOMES SOMETHING OTHER THAN A PURELY POLITICAT. SUBDIVISION. IT BECOMES ALMOST THE SOCIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON THAT SORT OF PERMEATES THE WAY PEOPLE ORGANIZE THEMSELVES IN THE STATE AND PUT THEMSELVES TOGETHER IN SMALL GROUPS TO DO THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER, IN ADDITION TO GOVERNMENT. EARLIER YOU INDICATED YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE IS WITH RESPECT TO THE HANDLING OF LOCAL BILLS AND WHAT THEY ARE AND I^JHAT THE LEGI SLATIVE PROCESS I S, .A A LOCAL BILL IS DEFINED--I DEFINE IT--AS A BILL WHICH APPLIES TO ONE OR MORE SPECIFICALLY NAMED COUNTIES OR ONE OR MORE SPECIFICALLY NAMED CITIES. MANY STATES HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS THAT MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO ENACT LOCAL BI LLS-.LOCAI- LEGI SLATION. THE STATE PROHIBITION AGAINST THE USE OF LOCAL BILLS BEGAN WITH THE JACKSONION SUSPICION OF STATE LEGIS- LATORS. IT WAS FILT THAT STATE LEGISLATORS WERE CORRUPT AND THEY TENDED TO TRY TO RESTRICT THEIR POWERS. OUR LOCAL BILL GREW PAR.TLY OUT Of THAT AND PARTLY OUT OF THE MOVEMENT F P. O. lor iltG LJ R.hoh, xom c.drd 276r 102.1 o 1 2 3 4 b 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 l9 20 2t DO OQ 21 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN THE l8BO IS WHEN C ITIES FELT-.MA.JOR CITIES IN THE COUNTRY_-FELT OPPRESSED BY THEIR STATE LEGISLATURES. NORTH CAROLINA HAS A CONSTITUTIONAL RESTRICTION ON THE USE OF LOCAL BILLS, BUT IT IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE ONE. IT DOESN'T COVER ANYTHING THAT AMOUNTS TO ANYTHING. SO, OUR LEGISLATURE IS FREE TO PASS BILLS THAT APPLY OI']LY TO WAKE COUNTY OR ONLY TO THE CITY OF RALEIGH OR ONLY TO ORANGE COUNTY, AND iT DOES SO IN GREAT NUMBERS. EARLY IN THE CENTURY YOU V.iOULD FIND THAT AN ACTUAL MA.JORITY OF THE BI LLS ENACTED IN ANY GIVEN SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE WOULD BE LOCAL BILLS. THE PERCENTAGE HAS DECLINED OVER THE YEARS. IN 1983, IT IS ROUGHLY 20 PERCENT. BUT THAT IS STILL A VERY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER. BASICALLY 20 PERCENT OF THE LEGISLATIVE OR 20 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL BILLS INTRODUCED WERE LOCAL BILLS. A SLIGHTLY GREATER PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL BILLS ENACTED ARE LOCAL BiLLS. so, THE PROCESS OF-ENACTMENT OF LOCAL LEGISLA- TION IS VERY MUCH A PART OF THE ANNUAL LEGISLATIVE SESSION. a BEFORE YOU GO INTO THE PROCESS, I ASK yOU TO GET THE ACTUAL FIGURES FROM THE MOST RECENT SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE. WHAT WERE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS THAT WERE INTRODUCED? A THROUGH .JULY lBTH--I STOPPED COUNTING AFTER JULY 1BTH, BECAUSE I FIGURED IT I^JAS LONG SINCE TIME FOR F F. O. Bor 2alB lJ t{rLagh, Nonh C.rolrn. 270il L022 1 3' 3 o 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA THEM TO GO HOME. SO I STOPPED COUNTING. BUT AS OT- JULY lBTH, 2,178 BILLS INTRODUCED, OF WHICH 425 WERE LOCAL. IT IS ABOUT 20 PERCENT. A HOW MANY OF THE LOCAL BILLS WERE RATIFIED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY? A 295 AS OF THA-T DATE. A HOW MANY OF THE GENERAL LEGISLATIVE BILLS WERE RATIFIED? A 5'+6 AS OF THAT DATE. NOW TELL THE COUP.T BRIEFLY ABOUT THE PROCESS BY I^/H I CH THE LEG I SLATURE HANDLES LOCAL B I LLS. A THE PROCESS IS DE:SIGNED TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO HANDLE A LARGE NUMBER OF LOCAL BILL I.JITHOUT TAKING UP A GREAT DEAL OF ANYBODY I S TIME. I T DOES THAT BY FOUR UNDERSTANDINGS. YOU WONIT FIND THESE WRITTEN DOWN ON THE STATUTE BOOKS ANYWHERE. BUT THERE ARE FOUR UNDERSTANDINGS IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO DO THAT. .r THE FIRST UNDERSTANDING NOW IS THAT USUALLY.-AND I WOULD SAY ALMOST ALWAYS.-A LOCAL BILL IS NOT INTRODUCED UNLESS A LOCAL GOVERNING BOARD HAS ASKED FOR IT TO BE INTRODUCfD. SO THERE WILL TYPICALLY BE A RESOLUTION FROM A BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OR CITY COUNCIL ASKING THEI REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS TO INTRODUCED AND GET PASSED A LOCAL BILL - P. O.601 2tlB l,J R.bhh. N6n c.ro{n. 27!tt I 023 I 2 3 I b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.!571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE SECOI'ID ASSUMPT ION I S THAT ALL MEMBERS OF TH LEGISLP,TURE WHO REPRESENT DISTRICTS IN WHICIl THAT COUNTY OR THAT CITY IS LOCATED ARE CONSULTED ABOUT THE BILL. IT IS A SERIOUS BREACH OF LEGISLATIVE COURTESY TO INTRODUCE A LOCAL BILL AND NOT TELL YOUR COLLEAGUE FROM THE SAME DISTRI THAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT. THAT GETS SORT OF FURTHER REFINED IN COUNTIES THAT ARE IN, SAY, A SINGLE COUNTY DISTRICT WITH MULTIPLE REPRESENTATIVES OR SENATORS. THERE ARE EASICALLY TWO PATTERNS FOR CONSULTING LOCAL MEMBERS. SOME DELEGATIONS FOLLOW THE UNANIMOUS CONSENT RULE. I^JAKE IS STILL AN EXAMPL OF THAT. IN WAKE COUNTY A LOCAL BILL WILL NOT BE INTRO. DUCED UNLESS ALL MEMBERS AGREE TO IT. IN OTHER DELEGATIONS, THE MAJORITY RULES. MECKLENBURG IS A TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF THAT. A LOCAL BILL WILL BE iNTRODUCED IN MECKLENBURG AFTER THEY HAVE CAUCUSED AND HELD A MAJORITY VOTE. AND THE UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE MAJORITY WILL GO ALONG WITH IT AND WILL NOT OBJECT. SO ALL MEMBERS ARE CONSULTED. THE THIRD UNDERSTANDING IS THAT LOCAL BILLS ARE EXPLAINED AND DEBATED IN COMMITTEE, NOT ON THE FLOOR. IT I S VERY RARE TO SEE--- (INTERPOSING) BY THE FLOOR, YOU MEAN THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE? THAT IS RIGHT. F P. O,8or 2ttl! Ll irngh, ttodh c.rollm zlort LU'/,* I o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 r9 20 2l oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 A76.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a 0R THE SENA'rE? A YES. IT IS VERY RARE TO SEE DEBATE ON LOCAL BILLS ONI THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE UNLESS IT IS A LOCAL BILL. THAT IS CONTROVERSIAL FROM A STATEWIDE STAND- POINTT YOU CAN EXPECT TO SEE A LOCAL BILL AUTHORIZING LIQUOR BY THE DRINK TO HAVE BEEN DEBATED, AS IT WAS. BUT THAT iS VERY RARE. IN A TYPICAL SESSION, NOT MORE THAN ONE OR TWO, IF THAT MANY, ARE. NOW, THE FINAL UNDERSTANDING IS THAT NORMALLY LOCAL LEGISLATiON IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL FROM A STATEWIDE VIEWPOINT AND THE MEMBERS WHO HAVE INTRODUCED IT TAKE FULL POLITICAL RESPONSIBiLITY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF PASSING IT SO IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE BILL. IS UNPOPULAR, THE PEOPLE WHO INTRODUCED THE BILL ARE THE ONES WHO THE VOTERS ARE TO GET upsET wrrH AND Nor rHE LEcls,-oir*a AS A wHoLE. NOW, THOSE UNDERSTANDINGS MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO HANDLE THE THINGS ON THE FLOOB BASICALLY BY A CONSENT CALENDAR TECHNIQUE. LOCAL BILLS ARE ALWAYS FIRST ON THE CALENDAR. THEY ARE HANDLED IN A ROUTINE ASSEMBLY LINE FASHION. EARLY IN THE SESSION, IF THERE IS NOT A GREAT DEAL OF PUBLIC BUSINESS TO DO, EACH ONE WILL BE TAKEN UP INDIVIDUALLY AND AT LEAST THE TITLE READ AND A SEPARATE VOT HELD ON IT. AS THE SESSION PROGRESSES AND THE PUBLIC F P. O.8or 2alal LJ Rrboh. lrodh crrolrm 27!ll i.0zi o I o 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA CALENDAR GETS LONGER, IT WILL BE FAIRLY TYPICAL TO PASS THEM IN A BATCH. a Now, MR. FARRELL, WHAT RESPECT TO I^JHAT IMPACT THERE WOULD LOCAL LEGISLATION--LOCAL BI LLS.-IN COUNTIES IF THOSE COUNTIES WERE TO DISTRICTS? IS YOUR OPINION WITH BE ON THE HANDLING OF MULTI-MEMBER DI STRI CT BE SiNGLE MEMBERED A THE IMPACT WOULD BE BRINGING TO THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE LOCAL CONTROVERSY. THE RESULT OF THA-r WOULD BE, IN MY OPINION, THAT FEWER LOCAL BILLS WOULD BE INTRODUCED. TH EFFECT OF THAT I^/OULD BE THE ABI LI TY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO ENGAGE IN INNOVATIVE OR EXPERIMENTAL PROGRAMS OR TO MODIFY STATEWIDE STRUCTURES WOULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY DIMINISH ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE FACT THAT THERE ARE SOME LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS IN NORTH CAROLINA NOW THAT--THAT IS, THE COUNTY IS SPLIT AMONG DIST;ICTS? A YES. CAN YOU GIVE THE GOURT SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT HAS CREATED IN THE PAST SESSION OF THEPROBLEMS THAT LEG I SLATURE? PROBLEMS ALL ARISE FROM THE FACT THAT NOBODY KNOWS W}1O REPRTSENTS THOSE PEOPLE AS A PRACTI CAL MATTER. THREE BILLS FROM THE I82 SESSION I THINK ILLUSTRATE THAT FAIRLY WELL. THE FIRST ONE WAS A LOCAL BILL THAT WOULD HAVE EARMARKED--EARMARK THE INTANGIBLES TAX ALLOCATED TO F P. O, Bor 2llc! LJ F.ldeh. xmh Crrolh. e76lr J,UZv 1 a, 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 l8 19 20 2l oo 23 24 OR PHECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX ARIZONA HENDERSON COUNTY TO BUILD A COURTHOUSE. THE BILL WAS INTRODIJCED BY A SENATOR REPRESENTIN THE DISTRICT WHO DiD NOT LIVE IN HENDERSON COUNTY. THE BILL WAS OPPOSED BY TIlE HENDERSON COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISS- IONERS. THE HOUSE MEMBER WHO DID RESIDE IN HENDERSON COUNT OPPOSED THE B I LL, BUT I T WAS.-THE ARGUMENT I^/AS MADE THAT THE SENATOR WHO---THE ARGUMENT I^/AS MADE THAT THE ENTIRE DELEGATION, AT LEAST IN THE SENATE, THAT REPRESENTED HENDERSON COUNTY SUPPORTED THE BILL BECAUSE PART OF HENDERSON WAS IN A DISTRICT 14iTFI BUNCOMBE. SO I'HE BUNCOI{BE DELEGATIOI.I SUPPORTED A BILL WH I CI-I EARMARKED I NTANG I BLES TAX PROCEEDS TO BU I LD A COURTHOUSE IN HENDERSON COUNTY. THE LOCALLY ELECTED--I^/ELL, THE RESIDENT REPRESENTATIVE OPPOSED THE BILL. THE BILL, I BELIEVE, PASSED. BUT IT WAS VERY CONFUSING AS TO WHO WAS SPEAKING FOR HENDERSON COUNTY IN TTIAT CIRCUMSTANCE. A SECOND EXO*'L' IS A BILL THAT DID NOT GET INTRODUCED AT ALL. THERE IS A RURAL AREA OF GUILFORD COUNTY KNOI.JN AS WALKERTOWN. THERE IS A SANITARY DISTRICT THERE CALLED WALKERTOWN SANITARY DISTRICT--I AM SORRY-- FORSYTH COUNTY. THE PEC)PLE WHO LIVE IN THE WALKERTOWN SANITARY DISTRICT ARE AFRAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GET ANNEXED BY WINSTON-SA.LEM. AND SO THEY WERE INTERESTED IN GETTII.IG INCORPORATED AS A MUNICIPALITY AS A SORT OF A DEFENS IVE INCORPOP.ATION. F t. O. gq 2tlB u irbrdr. rdh crrch 274il tr"02';' I q 3 4 5 6 t 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 o( PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE IN THE AREA CALLED THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE coNVENED AND ASKED, I'HO|J DO YOU GO ABOUT GETTING INCORPORATED AS A TOI^/N? l./E ARE AFRAID WE ARE GOiNG TO GET ANNEXED. II IT WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR US TO ADVISL. THEM BECAUSE THE NORMAL UNDERSTANDINGS DIDNIT APPLY. IT TURNS OUT THAT THAT PAF..T OF FORSYTH COUNTY IS IN A DISTRICT WITH GUILFORD COUNTY AND ALL THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THAT DISTRICT LIVE IN GUILFORD COUNTY. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT IN THAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A DEFENSIVE INCORPORATION. THE DELEGATION WANTS TO KNOW WHAT DOES THE CITY COUNCIL OF W INSTCN.SALEM THI NK ABOUT THI S. WELL, THE PEOPLE I,JHO REPRESENTED THE WALKERTOWN AREA DIDNIT REPRESENT WINSTON- SAI-EM. AND SO THERE WAS NO B I LL T TITEOOUCTO BY THE WALKER- TOWN INCORPORATION THIS.'U"'O*. I CANIT TELL YOU WHY. BUT WE EASICALLY COULD NOT TELL THEM WHO--WE DIDNIT KNOW WHO TO TELL THEM TO TALK TO ABOUT GETTING THEIR BILL I NTRODUCED. THE THIRD EXAMPLE iS THE WAKE FOREST ANNEXATION. OCCASSIONALLY A MUNICIPALITY WILL WANT TO ANNEX TERRITORY THAT DOESNIT MEET THE STATUTORY STANDARDS FOR ANNEXATION. IT IS NOT AT ALL UNUSUAL TO HAVE SPECIAL BILLS PASSED ANNEXiNG SMALL AREAS TO EXISTING TOWNS. - P. O. Bor 2tt(} u R.bloh, Nonh C.rclhr 27!lt LO'IE 1 .t 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE TOWN OF y{AKE FOREST WANTED TO ANNEX AN AREA. A BI LL WAS INTRODI]CED IN THE HOUSE. THE HOUSE DELEGATION REPRESENTED ALL OF WAKE COUNTY, INCLUDING WAKE FOREST. IT WENT JUST FINE IN THE HOUSE AND GOT OVER IN THE SENATE. THE SENATOR REPRESENTING THE TOWN OF WAKE FOREST IS IN THE DISTRICT WITH FRANKLIN COUNTY AND I DONIT KNOW WHO ELSE. I GUESS THAT IS THE 11TH DISTRICT--FRANKLTN AND VANCE-.SEN|ATOR SPEED. FROM HIS STANDPOINT, I DOUBT--WELL, I WOULDNTT WANT TO SPEAK FOR HIM. BUT AT ANY RATE, WHEN THE BI LL CAME UP IN THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON LOCAI- GOVERNMENT, SENATOR SPEED WAS NOT PRESENT. WELL, THE WAY THE LOCAL BILL UNDER- STANDINGS ARE, THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT THERE WAS INTER- PRETED BY THE COMMITTEE AS A SIGNAL THAT HE DIDNIT SUPPORT THE Bi LL. SO THE BI LI- GOT KI LLED IN THE SENATE. THE HOUSE MEMBERS, ALL WTTO REPRESENT WAKE COUNTY, THEN TRIED TO GET IT ON THROUGH THE SENATE. BUT IT WAS LAT IN THE SESSION AND IT GOT ALL ^INVOLVED. THE BILL FAILED. NOW, I,/HO CAN SAY WHETHER IT I'/OULD HAVE PASSED HAD THAT PART OF WAKE COUNTY BEEN IN THE SAME SENATE DISTRICT WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTY. THERE IS NO WAY i CAN TELL YOU THAT OR NOT. BUT IT CONFUSED LINES OF COMMUNICATION. MEMBERS THEMSELVES DID NOT KNOW I,'/HO WAS SPEAKING FOR THIS PARTICULAR PART OF WAKE COUNTY. IT JUST UPSET THE I^JHOLE NORMAL METHOD OF -OPERATION FOR THESE THINGS. F P. O. Bor 2atGl LJ Rd.rCr, Nonh C..oIM 276tr L0zt) 1 .t 3 1 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a MR. FARRELL, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHEIHER OR NOT NORTH CI.ROLINA HAS ANY ALTERNATIVE TO USING CCUNTY BOUNDARI ES IN CONSTRUCTING LEGI SLATIVE DI STRI CTS IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFiED TO RELATING TO LOCAL-.THE HANDLING OF LOCAL BILLS? NOT AS LONG AS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE THE STRUCTURAL RELATIONSHIPS FOR THE DELIVERY OF STATE SERVICES AND THE DELIVERY Of' LOCAL SERVICES ORGANTZED AROUND THESE BOUNDARIES. PARTLY BECAUSE WE DONIT HAVE MUCH OF A CONSTRAI ON LOCAL BILLS, I.JE ALSO TEND TO HAVE VERY BROAD GENERAL LAWS. WE DONIT U5E CLASSIFIED LEGISLATION. THE SAME MUNICIPAL LAW, FOR EXAMPLE, APPLIES TO CHARLOTTE AS APPLIES TO BAYBORO. IT THEN BECOMES NECESSARY TO AND CERTAINLY DESIRABLE IN MANY INSTANCES TO MODIFY THAT GENERAL LAW TO FIT A PARTICULAR LOCAL CIRCUMSTANCE. . IF YOU RE-DO. LEGISLATIVE BOUNDARIES WITHOUT REGARD TO COUNTY LINES, THERE IS A VERY STRONG--THERE WOULD BE A TENDENCY THERE, I THINK, TO--WELL, IT JUST DISRUPTS THE PROCESS. A DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN MARKED DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 5O? CAN YOU IDENTIFY FOR US WHAT THAT EXHIBIT IS? (DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NO. 5O WAS MARKED FOR IDENTI FI CATION. ) RALEIGH TIMES EDITORIAL, JULY L5, I B3? F P, O. Bor 2al6l Ll F.5rrr Nom C.ro{D Z70rr 030 1 o 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A CORRECT. IS THAT AN EXAMPLE, MR. FARRELL, OF THE KIND OF PUBLIC REACTION THAT BECOMES EVIDENT BECAUSE OF THE SPLIT OF PART OF A COUNTY OFF INTO ANOTHER LEGISLATIVE DISTRICI'AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LEGISLATOR TO THAT AREA THAT IS SPLIT OFF? MS. I^/INNER: I OBJECT TO MR. FARRELL TESTIFYING ABOUT WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE EDITORIAL. I OBJECT ALSO TO THE EDITORIAL,WHICH I S HEARSAY. MR" LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I ASKED IF IT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE KIND OF REACTION. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED. THE I^JI TNESS : I THINK IT HIT IT RIGI-IT ON THE HEAD. MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. I OFFER IT NOT FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE EDITORIAL, IF THE COURT PLEASE, BUT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT KIND OF PUBLIC REACTION COMES WHEN THE SlTUATION AND THE CONFLiCTS THAT TH WITNESS HAS TESTIFIEL' TO ACTUALLY OCCURRED IN THE LEGIS- LATURE. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT WILL BE ADMITTED FOR THAT PUP.POSE. (OTTTNORNTSI EXHIBIT NO. 5O WAS RECEIVED I N rv i oENCr. ) BY MR. LEONARD: H P. O.601 2ttlB LJ R.,.loh, Nonh crdlh. 27or l x031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 t9 20 2t 22 23 24 o( PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A NOW, MR. FARRELL, SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO THE RESIDENTS, THE VC]TERS AND THE RESIDENTS WITHIN COUNTIES, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THOSE INDIVIDUALS, GIVEN THE HISTORY YOU HAVE TESTIFIED TO, ARE BETTER REPRESENTED INDIVIDUALLY IN THIS STATE IN SINGLE OR MULTI:.MEMBER DI STRICTS IN THOSE COUNTI ES WHICH ARE CAPABLE OF BEING SINGLE MEMBER DI STRICTS? A IN MY OI'INION, THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY AS A I,'JHOLE ARE BETTER REPRESENTED BY MULTI -MEMBER DI STR ICTS THAN THEY ARE BY SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THE COUNTY ITSELF AS AN ENTITY OR AN AGENCY OF' GOVERNMENT? A I DO. IT IS MORE EFFECTIVELY REPRESENTED WHEN THE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS FOLLOW COUNTY BOUNDARIES. MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE? MAY I HAVE .JUST ONE MOMENT (pRusE. ) BY MR. LEONARD: A EARLIEF. IN YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU MENTIONED STATES WHiCH EITHER DO NOT ALLOW OR RESTRICT LOCAL BILLS. DO YOU KNOW, MR. FARRELL, WHAT PROPORTION OF THE STATES ALLOW OR RESTRICT OR PROHI BIT LOCAL BILLS? VIRTUALLY ALL. THE ONLY STATE THAT DOESNIT RESTR I CT THEI'1 AT ALL I S MASSACHUSETTS. THE STATES THAT--TH ONLY STATE THAT BEGINS _TO APPROACH NORTH CAROLINAIS RELIANC a P. O. Bor 2l1(} lJ R.broh. Nod c.rcxn. aratr 0 oa 1 r, 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2t .r0 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457\ PHOENIX, ARIZONA ON LOCAL BiLLS IS I',lARYLAND. MY RESEARCH TENDS TO INDICATE THAT NORTH CAROLIN AND MARYLAND RELY VERY HEAVILY ON THEM, AND NORTH C/TROLINA PROBABLY MORE THAN MARYLAND. a DOES THE--SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO WAKE COUNTY, MR. FARRELL, IS THERE ANY CONCLUSION THAT YOU DRAW I^/iTH RESPECT TO THE LOCAL BI LL PROBLEM YOU TESTIFIED TO IN THAT COUNTY BY VIRTUE OF THE URBAN AND RURAL SPLIT IN THE COUNTY ? YES. AS FAR AS NORTH CAROLINATS URBAN COUNTIES ARE CONCERNED, WAKE COUNTY IS.-EVERY COUNTY IS UNIQUE, OF COURSE. BUT WAKE COUNTY, I SUPPOSE, I S i"1ORE UN I QUE THAN OTHERS. AS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A COUNTY THAT HAS FAIRLY LARGE LAND ARfA, ONE MAJOR CiTY IN THE CENTER OF THE couNTY Ar.iD A LARGE NUMBER OF SMALL TOWNS AROUND lr, ZEBULON HOLLY SPRINGS, FUQUAY, W1KE FOREST nruO SO ON, AND A VERY LARGE RURAL AREA, WAKE COUNTY TO START HAS BEEN HISTORICALL A GOOD BIT OF TENSION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN RALEIGH AND PEOPLE l^/HO LIVE IN THE SMALL TOWNS AND PEOPLE wHO DONrT LIVE IN ANY TOWN AT ALL. ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES THE WAKE DELEGATION HAS EVERY SESSION IS BALANCING OFF THE INTERESTS OF THE URBAN RESIDENTS IN RALEIGH, THE SUBURBAN RESIDENTS AROUND RALEIGH l/,/H I CH ARE TEND I NG NOW TO BE THE PEOPLE FROM CARY--TEND TO BE THE SPOKESMEN FROM THAT VIEI\/POINT, GARNER TO A LESSER - P. O.601 l'tt6lt lJ F.brs6. &dh C.rotm aTCrt OJ; t 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 n 2L ,9 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA EXTENT-.THE SMALL TOWNS ON THE PERIPHERY AND THEN I'HE RUR AREAS IN WHAT WE USED TO CALL ''DEAD COUNTRY'I WHEN I \,.JAS AT HOME--E/ICH MEMBER IN THE WAKE DELEGATiON REPRESENTS THE PEOPLE IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY, THE NORTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY AND IN THE CITY OF RALEIGH. AND A PART OF THEIR REPRESENTING THAT COUNTY IN LOCAL LEGISLATION IS TO WEIGH ALL OF THE COMPETING INTERESTS CONCERNED, THE ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST LOCAL PROPOSALS, AND TO MAKE THEI OWN JUDGMENT AND TO INTRODUCE SUCH LEGISLATION AS THEY THIN IS GOOD FOR THE COUNTY AS A WHOLE. a AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPI|'rION AS TO WHAT SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTING OF WAKE COUNTY WOULD DO TO THE PROCESS THAT YOT,, HAVE TE S T I F I ED TO ? WELL, IT WOULD ELIMINATE ANY INCENTIVE TO HAVE ANY KIND OI- CONCENSUS IN THE DELEGATION BEFORE THE BI LL WAS INTRODUCED. MEMBERS REPRESENTING A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT WOULD OBViOUSLY BE COf.f Cf nrrf f O ONLY WI TH THE INTERESTS OF THE CITIZENS \4I.IO ELECTED THEM. IF YOU ARE IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT THAT IS PREDOMINANTLY THE CITY OF RALEIGH, THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO CONSULT THE INTERESTS OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE RURAL AREAS, SMALL TOWNS OR WHATEVER. SO THE EFFECT WOULD LIKELY BE THAT BILLS THAT INVOKED RURAL-URBAN CONTROVERSY-- AN ANNEXATION BILL IS A PRETTY GOOD EXAMPLE--WOULD BE INTRODUCED. LETIS SAY_IF THE TOWN WANTED THE BILL F P. O. &r l,tlas lJ nrhlch, Nonh C.rohn. 27Efi 1034 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I r0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l aD 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA INTRODUCED AND THE REPRESENTATIVE REPRESENTS THE TOWN, HE WOULD INTRODUCE I'HE BILL. HIS COLLEAGUES FROM THE SAME COUNTY, REPRESENTI THE AREA THAT IS GOING TO BE ANNEXED, LETIS SAY, WOULD OPPOSE THE BILL. NOW, IF YOU ARE SITTING ON A LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE IN EITHER HOUSE, THE LAST THING IN THE WORLD YOU WANT IS MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION FROM THE SAME COUNTY COMING IN AND ARGUING ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THIS BILL. AND EVEN WORSE IS FOR THAT TO ERUPT ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE AND SPEND HALF AN HOUR LiSTENING TO PEOPLE ARGUE ABOUT A WAKE FOREST ANNEXATION BILL ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE. NOBODY HAS GOT TIME FOR THAT. A MFi,. FARRELL, DO YOU HAVE AN oPINIoN AS To WHETHE OR NOT THE LEGISLATURE AS A WHOLE, THE T'WO HOUSES, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WOULD IN FACT FACILITATE ITSELF TO THE RESOLVE OF THE NUMBER OF LOCAL BILL ISSUES WHICH MIGHT INVOLVE CONTROVERSY? A I DONIT THINK THERE IS ANY STRUCTURAL WAY TO DO IT. YOU HAVE FEWER OF THEM. MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL. CROSS EXAMINATION 2:57 P.M. BY MS. WINNER: A DID WAKE FOREST HAVE STATUTORY AUTHORITY TO ANNEX I^/ITHOUT GOING TO THE LEGISLATURE? F P. O. Bor i6t.ll LI A.bE r Noirh C.rotrn. Z70lr 035 o I 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 to 13 14 15 16 t1 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.457 1 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A NOT THE AREA THEY WANTED TO TAKE IN. THEY WANTED TO ANNEX IT BECAUSE IT DIDN'T MEET THE STANDARDS DEFINED IN THE STATUTE FOR INVOLUNTARY ANNEXATION. A SO THEY WERE ASKING FOR AN EXCEPTION TO THE S TATUTE ? A YEs. A THE STATUTE REFLECTING THE STATE POLICY ABOUT ANN EXAT I ON ? A YES. A YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO OR A WHILE AGO THAT THE COUNTY BOUNDARIES }.IERE PRIMARILY SET BY 1911; IS THAT CORRECT ? A YES. A AI'iD THAT THEY REFLECTED THE COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST WHICI-i EXI STED AT THAT TIME? A YES. A ARE YOU AWARE OF THE CURRENT LOCAL OF Ii\DUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA? A NO MORE SO THAN ANY OTHER CITIZEN. A IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT INDUSTRIES--THAT SOME I NDUSTR I ES-- I N NORTH CAROL I NA DRAW THE I R RAI./ MATER IALS FROM PLACES THAT ARE NOT IN THEIR COUNTY? A OH, SURELY. A AND THEY ALSO DRAW THEIR EMPLOYEES--SOME INDUSTRIES DRAW EMPLOYEES FROM AN AREA THAT IS LARGER THAN25 - P. O. Box 2lr.(l lJ Rddcir. Nodh Crrcrhr zrarl 036 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 t9 20 2r oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFTICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE COUNTY? P, YES. A AND THEY ALSO DISTRIBUTED THEIR PRODUCTS TO AN AREA THAT I S MUCH MORE--- A (INTERPOSING) OH, YES, SURELY. a AND THAT IS MORE TRUE TODAY THAN rT WAS IN 1911? A I WOULDNIT THINK THERE WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENCE S IGNI FICANTLY. A IT IS CERTAINLY MORE TRUE TODAY THAN IT WAS, SAY IN IBTO? A I VERY MUCH DOUBT THAT THERE IS MUCH DIFFERENCE ON THAT. OUR FIRST INDUSTRY BASICALLY WAS SELLING PINE TAR AND TURPENTINE. WE SOLD IT TO EUROPE. THE BOUNDARIES OF COMMERCE HAVE ALWAYS GONI OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF THE COUNTY AND BOUNDARIES OF THE STATE AND THE NATION AS }IELL. . A THAT PINE TAR WAS MADE FROM PINE TREES THAT EXISTED IN THAT COUNTY, WAS IT NOT? A SURE. A ARE YOU AWARE ABOUT THE TRANSPORTATION IN THE STATE IN ;983? A SURE, YES. A DO YOU AGREE THAT ALMOST ALL MAJOR AIRPORTS IN THIS STATE ARE REGIONAL AIRPORTS THAT SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY? Ff P. O. lor ,tt6it L-a R.lr|Orr No.tr C.rolt^t 2tCr I i r)37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 oi o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 87 6.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA A YES. A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH MEDIA MARKET AREAS IN THE STATE? A I^JHAT IS A MEDIA MARKET? A LET ME BREAK I T DOWN. ARE YOU FAI"II L IAR WI TH NEWSPAF.ER MARKETING AREAS? A GENERALLY, YES. A WOULD YOU AGREE THAT MOST OF THE MAJOR NEI^,SPAPER IN THIS STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY? A YES. A AND THAT MOST OF THE MAJOR TV STATIONS IN THE STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY? A YES. A DC) YOU AGREE THAT MANY MA.JOR SHOPPING AREAS IN THE STATE SERVE MORE THAN ONE COUNTY? A YES. A AND iN FACT, THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE CONTROVERSY IN THE LEGISLATURE THIS SESSION; WASNIT IT? A I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO. A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE LOCAL SALES TAX BILL THAT WAS P/'SSED IN 1983? A YES. A AND THE CONTROVERSY OF THE LOCAL SALES TAX BILL OF HOW YOU WERE GOING TO DISTRIBUTE THAT HALF CENT OF MONEY? - P. O. Bor 2tl6 u Rd.tgh. Nonh cr.oril 274il .t- 03E o 1 .) 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 1l L2 13 1,1 15 16 t7 18 r9 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA YES. THE REASON FOR THAT CONTROVERSY WAS THAT SO MANY PEOPLE SHOPPED IN SHOPPING CENTERS THAT WERE NOT IN THEIR COUNTY, IS THAT RIGHT? A THE REASON FOR THE CONTROVERSY IS EVERYBODY WANT THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY CAN GET. THE FI.CT IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT COUNTIES THAT DONTT HAVE MAJOR SHOPPING CENTERS ARE GREATER THAN THOSE WHO REPRESENT COUNTIES THAT DO. AND THE MAJORITY WON ON THAT ONE. IF PEOPLE SHOP..IF PEOPLE SHOP IN THEIR OWN COUNTIES, THEN iT WOULD NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHERE YOU DISTRIBUTED THE MONEY BY POPULATION OR BY THE AREA IT WAS COLLECTED; WOULD I T? WOULD YOT,i REPEAT THAT? A a A YES. I WILL REPHRASE IT. WHETHER TO D I STR I BUTE THE MONEY I ru }I-IT THE CONTROVERSY WAS AREA THAT THE SHOPPING WAS DONE? BECAUSE PEOPLE SHOP--THAT MANY AREA THAN WHERE THEY LIVE--IN RIGHT OR IN THE AREA WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVED? R I GHT. AND THE REASON THAT TI.IAT WAS DIFFERENT WAS PEOPLE SHOP IN A DIFFERENT THE COUNTY I^JHERE THEY LIVE? a YES. NOW, YOL' TALKED ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION OF STATE o F P. O. Eor i'ttas u R.btgh, Nonh C.rotin. 27Gtr i0uS 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SERVICES. IS IT NOT CORRECT THAT FOR AN EXAMPLE THERE ARE MANY HEALTH SERVICES WHICH AF.,E DISTRIBUTED NOT ON A COUNTY BY COUNTY BASIS? A HEALTH AND MENTAL HEALTH HAVE MORE DISTRICTS FOR THE DELIVERY SYSTEM, BUT ALL THE DISTRICTS ARE COMPOSED OF WHOLE COUNTIES. A BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, CHARLOTTE MEMORIAL HOSPITAL SERVES NOT JUST MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A OH, I SEE. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR HOSPITAL a RIGHT. A YES. THEY TEND TO BE LOCATED IN CENTERS OF POPULATION AND FREQUENTLY SERVE AN AREA WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY DEFiNED BY COUNTY BOUNDARIES. A AND, FOR EXAMPLE, THE HOSPITAL IN ASHEVILLE SERVES MANY OF THE MOUNTAIN COUNTIES? A YES. THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE COUNTIES, THOUGH THEY SERVING, TY'"O"' DONI T CONTRI BUTE TO I TS SUF'PORT FROM TAX FUNDS, WHICH.iS A SOURCE OF MALJOR IRRITA'J TION WHEN THE COUNTIES WHICH ARE SUPPORTING THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HOSPITALS. THEY WANT THE OTHER FoLKS To SHARE tN THE cosr, BUT THEY DoNrT, oF couRSE. A AND FROM A PUBLIC POLICY CONCEPT, IT IS THERE- FORE IMPORTANT FOR THE STATE TO LOOK AT A TOTAL PICTURE AND NOT .JUST A PARTICULAR COUNTYI S PICTURE? A YES, OF COURSE. F P. O.601 2!t(l lJ R.ble,|. irodn Cr6trn. ar6rr 040 e, I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 16 17 l8 19 20 2l ar, o2 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE COMMUNITY CCLLEGE SYSTEM, YOU DONIT WANT TO JUST CONSIDER MECKLENBURG COUNTYIS ROLE IN CENTRAL PIEDMONT COMMUNITY COLLEGE; YOU WANT TO CONSIDER THE WHOLE REGION SERVICE AREAS? A YES. A GETTING BACK TO HEALTH, PLANNING I S DONE O1'I A REGIONAL BASIS, NOT ON A COUNTY BY COUNTY BASIS? A YES. A THERE ARE MANY REGIONAL HOUSING AUTHORITIES; ARE THERE NOT? A I DONIT KNOW. I DONIT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PUBLI HOUS ING. A CERTAINLY MENTAL INSTITUTIONS SERVE A WHOLE REGION OF THE STATE? A YES. a You TALKED ABOUT THE ..lUrric IAL SYSTEM AND THE COURTS BEING ONE OF THE EARLY FUNCTIONS OF COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. A IN FACT, JUDICIAL DISTRICTS ARE NOW THE ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT FOR THE COURTS; ARE THEY NOT? A IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE CLERK OF COURT IS STILL ELECTED BY COUNTY. SO THE CLERICAL FUNCTIONS OF THE COURT AND PR(}BATE FUNCTIONS ARE STILL DONE BY COUNTY--BY THE CLERK. THE COURT FACILITIES EXCEPT WITH F P. O. Bor 2ttca LJ R.blch, Ndh C.roilor 2rctr 1 041 1 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE EXCEPTION OF THE CI-IAMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT AND THE COURT OF APPEALS ARE ALL PROVIDED BY THE COUNIIES. THE ARE A FEW MUNICIPAL COURTROOMS, NOT VERY MANY, CORRESPOND- I NGLY. IN THE JUDICIAL DISTRICTS, THE PROSECUTORIAL DISTRICTS ARE ALL SET UP BY AGGREGATIONS OF COUNTIES. A BUT MANY OF THEI"I ARE AGGREGATIONS OF COUNTIES? A YES. MOST OF THEM ARE. A ANTD IN AS FAR AS THEY--AND THE SUPERIOR COURT .JUDGES ARE ELECTED STATEWIDE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION? A YES. A AND VACANCIES ARE APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR AND NOT BY THE COUNTIES? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THE OPERATING DISTRICTS OF THE COURT ARE DONE THROUGH THE LJUDICIAL DISTRTCTS ANO NOT THROUGH COUNTIE A THE OPERATING COSTS OF THE FACILITIES ARE DONE BY THE COUNTIES. EVERYTHING OTHER THAN THE COST OF PRO- VIDING THE PH'/SICAL FACILITY AND SOME OF THE EQUIPMENT IS DONE BY THE STATE. A EDUCATION IS DISTRIBUTED BY SCHOOL DISTRICTS; IS IT NOT? A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT, TO BE PRECISE. A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE UNITS. AND THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 140 SOME-ODD OF THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATIVE A P. O. Bor 26tB LJ n.boh, Nonh c.'olrnr 27cil lJ &'l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l qo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA UNITS? A YEs. A H I GHER EDUCAT I ON I S CERTA I NI..Y DONE NOT BY COUNTIES, BUT BY EITHER COMMUNITY COLLEGES OR THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM? A YES. A . AND THAT IS NOT DONE THROUGH COUNTIES? A THAT IS CORRECT. A TAX COLLECTIONS FROM THE STATEIS PERSPECTIVE-- TAX COLLECTION IS NO LONGER DONE BY THE COUNTIES; IS IT? A THAT iS CORRECT. A AT LEAST SOME POLICIES WHICH WERE MADE BY COUNTIES 75 OR 100 YEITRS AGO ARE NOW MADE BY THE STATE; IS THAT CORRECT? A POLICIES? A LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. LOCAL GOVERNMENTS USED TO HAVE THEIR OWN AUTHORITY TO BORROW MONEY, AND NOW THE STATE CONTROLS LOCAL MONEY BORROWING? A IT DEPENDS ON HOW.-THEY NEVER HAD AUTHORITY TO BORROW MONEY WITHOUT LEGISLATIVE SANCTION. THERE WAS A TIME I^/HEN BONDS WOULD BE AUTHORIZED BY A LOCAL BILL OCCASIONALLY. BUT IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO STATE CONTROL OVER WHETHER YOU MAY EVEN HOLD AN ELECTION ON BONDS, YES, THAT HAS CHANGED SINCE 1933. A AND FUNCTIONS SUCH AS ROAD CONSTRUCTION AND F P, O. Bor 2tld L, n.Uoh, Ndh c.rolM 27atr u.i 3 I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 A76.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BRIDGE MAINTENANCE HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED FROM COUNTIES TO THE STATE? A YES; TOTALLY TRANSFERRED IN 7933. A NOW, THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS THEMSELVES ARE NO LONGER APPCINTED OR SELECTED BY THE LEGISLATURE AS THEY \^/ERE 1O O YEARS AGO? A LETIS SEE. ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO WAS 188]. IT WAS A MIXED BAG. IN SOME COUNTIES, MEMBERS OF LOCAL GOVERNING BOARDS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LEGISLATURE BY LOCAL BILL IN THE PERIOD ROUGHLY FROM 1876 TO 1905. THAT WAS--. a (INTERPOSING) THAT WAS MOST COUNTTES; WASNTT IT? A I DONIT THINK SO. YOU MAY HAVE BETTER INFORMA- TION THAN I. BUT I DONIT BELIEVE IT WAS A MAJORITY. a AT ANY RATE, ALL COUNTY COMMISSIONERS--NO COUNTY COMMiSSIONERS ARE NOW APPOINTED BY THE LEGiSLATURE? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THE AMOUNT OF HOME RULE HAS CERTAINLY INCREASETI IN THE LAST 20 YEARS? A COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY IIHOME RULEII? A CERTAINLY. THE LEGISLATURE NO LONGER PASSES LOCAL BILLS FOR THE SALARIES OF THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, FOR EXAMPLE? A CERTAINLY NOT AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO. YOU WILL STILL ON A RARE OCCASICN SEE THAT. A P. O. Bor 2ala3 u F.ueh. xonn C.rolrnr 2?6tl .10{4 a 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2r ,, OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a BUT THE COUNTIES DO NOT NEED TO GO TO ' LEG I SLATURE TO EI'IACT LOCAL B I LLS TO DO SUCH TH I NGS AS SALAR I ES ? A THAT IS CORRECT. THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT--THE STUDY COMMiSSION--ATTEMPTED TO ACCOMPLISH-.TO DECREASE THE RELIANCE ON LOCAL BILLS. A AND THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THAT? A YES, BY AND LARGE. A FOR EXAMPLE, MUNICIPALITIES AND COUNTIES HAVE AMPLE ZONING AUTHORITY AND DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE FOR ZONING MATTERS? A THAT IS GENERALLY--YES, THAT IS TRUE. A AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, MUNICIPALITIES AND COUNTIES CAN CHANGE THEIR OWN FORM OF GOVERNMENT I^IITHOUT GOING TO THE LEGISLATURE AS THEY SO DESIRE? A AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, iT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR COUNTIES TO DO THAT. IT IS FAIRLY EASY FOR MUNICIPALITIES. THE ONLY WAY A COUNTY CAN CHANGE IT LOCALLY IS BY SUBMI TTING I T TO A VOTE. AND THAT I S CL'MBERSOME AND EXPENSIVE. IT IS GENERALLY NOW-.YOT,l SEE RELATIVELY INFREQUENT USE OF THAT. A BL'T COUNTIES COULD CHANGE THEIR FORM OF GOVERN- MENT BY LETTING THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE COUNTY VOTE ON IT? A IF THEY COULD CONSTRUCT WHAT THEY WANTED FROM F P, O.8or 2'll*l LJ Rrbteh. Nodh C.roilnt 276il t_0 2, t-, o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 t0 11 t2 13 l4 15 r6 t7 l8 19 20 2L 22 23 24 26 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA THE BUILDING BLOCKS THAT ARE PUI' IN THE STATUTE. BUT THERE ARE A DISCRETE NUMBER OF BUILDING BLOCKS. YOU CANNOT HAVE LESS THAN THREE, NO MORE THAN FIVE MEMBERS. IF YOU WANT SEVEN MEMBERS, YOU HAVE GOT TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE. YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE EITHER TWO-YEAR TERMS, FOUR YEAR TERMS, STAGGERED FOUR-YEAF. TERMS, OR A COMBINATION. IF YOU WANTED FOR SOME REASON SIX-YEAR TERMS, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE. THERE ARE--EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE SOMEBODY WILL COME UP WITH A NEW SCHEME THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO TRY OUT AND IT I,/ON'T FIT IN THAT SO-CALLED HOME RULE BILL. THEII YOU HAVE GOT TO GO GET YOUR LOCAL BILL. SO THERE ARE LIMITS TO WHAT COUNTIES CAN DO TO CHANGE THEIR FORM OF GOVERNMENT, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN CHANGE.S THEY CAN MAKE WI THOUT GOING TO THE LEG I SLATURE? A a CARRY I NG A a A MEAN WHO a A a YES. DOES EACH COUNTY HITVE TO HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE OUT I TS ADMI N I STRAT I.VE DUTI ES ? NO. IF YOU SUBDIVIDED A COUNTY--- (INTERPOSING) ITT ME ASK YOU IF BY THAT YOU RESIDES WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THAT COUNTY? THAT IS WHAT I MEANT. BUT EACH COUNTY MUST HAVE A REPRESENTAT I VE. EACH COUNTY--. F P. O.8or 2altt LJ e.bh[r. raodn crrouM 27011 u4€, I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PBECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA JUL)GE PHILLIPS: MORE QUESTION AND WE ARE GOING ( I NTERPoS I NG) nsK oNE TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS. ALL RIGHT.MS. WINI.]ER: BY MS. WINNER: A IF.\'OU SUBDIVIDE A COUNTY, WILL THAT COUNTY END UP-.A COUNTY SUCH AS MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WHICH IS A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT--WILL THAT COUNTY END UP WITH \,lUST AS MANY REPRESENTATIVES? I PRESUME SO. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: LETIS TAKE A RECESS UNTIL 3:25 . (TNE PROCEEDING WAS TO RESUME AT 3i25 RECESSED AT }:10 P.M. P.M.T THIS SAME DAY') F P. O. Bor ,tal lJ Rtblett. Norri Crydau AZoil -t_ 0,i 7 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t oq o4t 24 25 FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 1i25 P.M. ( WHERE UPON, .JOSEPH S. FARRELL THE WITNESS CN THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:) CROSS- EXAMINATION 3125 P.M. (RESUMED) BY MS. WINNER: A MR. FARRELL, SUBDIViDING COUNTIES WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ABILITY OF RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO OPEFIATE Ot.l THE BASiS oF COUNTIESi WOULD IT? SUBDIVIDING COUNTIES IN THE LEGISLATURE? A OH, NO. A AND SUBDIVIDING COUNTIES IN ThE LEGISLATURE WOULD NOI INTERFERE WITH THE ABILI;Y OF CIVIC CLUBS TO ORGANIZE THEMSELVES ON A COUNTY14IDE BASIS; WOULD IT? A NO. A AND IT WOULDNIT INTERFERE WITH THE ABILITY OF FRANCHISERS TO CONDUCT THEIR BUSINESS ON A COUNTYWIDE BASIS? A NO. A IF \'OU SUBDIVIDED A COUIJTY SUCH AS MECKLENBURG COUNTY OR WAKE COUNTY, EVERY COUNTY COMMISSIONER WOULD STILL HAVE A REPRFSEIITATIVE; WOULDNIT HE OR SHE? PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA - P. O.8or 2tl(t lJ nrhrsh, Nonh C.rdrn. 27ort iUtc> o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A AS A CITIZEN OR AS A COMMISSIONER? A AS A CITIZEN? A YES. A AND THEREFORE, THAT COUNTY COMMISSIONER WOULD STILL HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE AND A SENATOR TO REQUEST TO INTRODUCE LOCAL BILLS; IS THAT CORRECT? A ALL RIGHT. LOCAL BILLS ARE NOT.-A REQUEST FROM A COUNTY COMMISSIONER TO INTRODUCE A LOCAL BILL--MY OPINION WOULD BE IGNORED, BECAUSE THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS FUNCTIONS AS A BOARD, NOT AS A COLLECTION OF INDIVIDUALS. A WELL, GOING THROUGH YOIJR FOUR UNDERSTANDINGS OF HOW THESE THINGS COME TO BECOME LAW, USING AN EXAMPLE-. FOR EXAMPLE, IF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS DECIDED THAT IT WANTED TO ENACT A LOCAL HOTEL OR MOTEL TAX, THE FIRST THING IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT WOULD HAPPEN IS THAT THEY WOULD VOTE ON IT; IS THAT CORRECT ? A THE COMMI SS IONERS: WOULD; YES. A THE COMMISSIONERS WOULD VOTE ON THAT? A YES. A AND SUBDIVIDING MECKLENBURG COUNTY CERTAINLY I^JOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THEIR DOING THAT? A NO. A AND SUPPOSING IT WERE UNANIMOUS, WHICH MAY OR MA NOT HAVE BEEN, BUT SUPPCSING IT WERE UNANIMOUS, THEN THEY F P. O. eor 2!raB lJ R.bton, Nom c.rdm 2?al .r_u49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 r7 18 r9 20 ,1 .), 23 24 23 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]. PHOENIX, ARIZONA CERTAINLY COULD CONSULT WITH ALL THE--AS THAT COUNTY COMMISSION COULD GO TO ALL OF THE REPRESENTATIVES ELECTED FROM THE SUBDI STRICTS IN MECKLENBURG AND ASK I.HEI'i TO SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION; COULDN'T THEY? A YES. A AND GIVEN THE MECKLENBURG RULE AS YOU DESCRIBED lT, THOSE TIELEGATES FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY COULD STILL. VOTE AND ENTER INTO AN INFORMAL.AGREEMENT TO ABIDE BY THE MAJORITY RULE; COULD THE\. NOT? A THEY COULD. A AN:D I T STI LL COULD BE EXPLAINED AND DEBATED WITHIN A COMMITTEE, NOT ON THE FLOOR; IS THAT CORRECT? A IT COULD. A AND ASSUMING THAT IT WERE NOT CONTROVERSIAL AND ALL THE VARIOUS MEMBERS FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY SUPPORTED IF, IT STILL COULD BE PASSED ON TH; FLOOR WITH MINIMUM DEBATEi IS THAT CORRECT? A YES; THAT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS UNLIKELY, BUT POS S I BLE. A DC) YOU THINK IT IS UNLIKELY EVEN IF ALL THE MEMBERS FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY SUPPORTED IT? A OH, IF THEY ALL SUPPC)RTED IT; YES. THAT WOULD BE FINE. A AN:D EVEN IF THEY ALL DIDIIIT SUPPORT IT, IF THEY ENTERED INTO AN AGREEMENT AS A DELEGATION, YOU COULD STILL F P. O. Bor l'tltli LJ R.brgh. ,aodh C&dh 27!il j.05 c I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 L7 l8 19 20 2t oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA EXPECT THEM TO HONOR THAT AGREEMENT? IF THEY ENTERED INTO SUCH AN AGREEMENT. I THINK HAVE ANY SUCH AGREEMENT WOULDTHE PRESSURES FOR THEM TO DIMINI SH SUBSTANTIALLY. NOW, USING THE SAME EXAMPLE, A HOTEL-MOTEL TAX THAT WAS DEBATED IN THIS SESSION WAS PRIMARILY FOR UPTOWN-- FOR THE PROCEEDS TO BE USED FOR UPTOWN IMPROVEMENT? YES. A IN AN AREA IN WHICH CORRECT? OR WHERE FEW PE()PLE NOBODY LIVES? IS THAT LIVE? THAT MUCH ABOUT THEA I REALLY DONIT KNOW DEMOGRAPHY OF CHARLOTTE. a OK.AY. BUT UPTOWN I MPROVEMENT-- I S THE UPTOWN OR THE CITIZENSDOWNTOWN OF THE CITY IS IMPORTANT TO ALL OF OF THE CITY? A YES;. A . ANTD INASFAR AS THE LEGI SLATION AFFECTED THE WHOLE CITY OR THE WHOLE COUNTY, THEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT THE CITIZENS WHO LIVED IN EACH OF THE SUBDISTRICTS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IT; IS THAT CORRECT? YES. A AND BECAUSE THEIR CONSTITUENTS WOULD BE CON- CERNED ABOUT IT, THE REPRESENTATIVES WOULD STILL HAVE AN INTEREST iN MAINTAINING THE VITALITY OF THE WHOLE CITY? A THEIR PRIMARY INTEREST IS GOING TO BE IN F P. O. Eor 2tlait lJ R.h!D. t6nh C.@h.. 2rotr _r.05i" I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .rq 23 24 OR PRECISION REPOBTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE THAT ELECTED THEM AND GETTING REELECTED NEXT TIME AROUND. NOW, IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE INTEREST OF THE I^/HOLE CITY AND THE INTEREST OF THE SUBDISTRICT THAT THEY REPRESENT COINCIDE, THEN CERTAINLY. A PROBLEM ARISES WHEN THOSE TWO INTERESTS PERHAPS CONFLICT OR WHEN IT IS NECESSAR TO REACH SOME SORT OF COMPROMISE POSITION. A AND IF THEY CONFLICT, THE RESULT OF SUBDISTRICTS WOULD BE THAT BOTH SIDES OF THAT CONFLICT WOULD BE ARTI- CULATED? YES. THEY WOULD BE ARTiCULATED, EITHER ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE OR IN COMMITTEES; WHEREAS NOW IT TAKES PLACE BASICALLY OUTSIDE THE FORMAL PROCESSES OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND THEREFORE CONSUMES A RELATIVEL SMITLL AMOUNT OF TIME. A BUT THERE IS NOTHING TO STOP THE MEMBERS OF THAT COUNTY DELEGATION FROM MEETING WITH THEMSELVES AND RESOLVIN THEIR COMPROMISE IN MUCH THE SAME MANNER THAT THEY DO NOW; WOULD THERE BE? I THINK THERE WOULD BE, BECAUSE NOW IF YOU ARE DEALING WITH AN ISSUE THAT--WELL, THE I-iOTEL-MOTEL TAX FOR THE PURPOSES OF YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION IS A GOOD EXAMPLE BECAUSE THAT DOESNIT REALLY HIGHLIGHT URBAN-SUBURBAN-RURAL CONFL I CT. IF ON THE OTHER HAND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A P. O.8ox 2El(l lJ Ad.lon. Nonh C.E[m 2rail r 052 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 l9 20 2l ,., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTlNG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX ARIZONA SOMETHING LIKE THE WAKE COUNTY-CITY OF RALEIGH MERGER OF THE TWO SCHOOL DISTRICTS, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY DISTINCT SPL.IT IN THE DELEGATION ON THAT ISSIJE. THOSE PERSONS THAT REPRESENTED DISI'RICTS THAT WERE OUTSIDE THE OLD RALEIGH CITY ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN OPPOSED TO THE CONSOLIDATION. THOSE WHO WERE .INSIDE.. WELL, I DONIT KNOW. BUT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ON OPPOSITE S I DES. IT IS HARD FOR ME TO SPECULATE AS TO WHICH SIDE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ON. WITH THE AT LARGE ELECTION GOING ON, THE DELEGATION HAS TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE THE COMPROMISE BETWEEN CONFLICTING INTEREST I^/ITHIN THE COUNTY. AND IN THAT SORT OF CIRCUMSTANCE, THEY PROBABLY CAME UP WITH A BILL THAT SUITED NOBODY TN ALL PARTICULARS, BUT SUITED EVERYBODY IN ENOUGH PARTICULARS THAT THEY FELT COMFORTABLE WITH INTRODUCING IT AND PUSHING IT ON THROUGH, EVEN THOUGH IF YOU WERE TO ASK THE SCHOOL BOARDS OF THE TWO UNITS, "DO YOU SUPPORT THIS BILL,'I THE ANSWER IN BOTH CASES WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN NO. A AI.ID YOUR TESTIMONY, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS IF THERE WERE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, THE Th/O SIDES OF THAT CONTROVERSY WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE EXPRESSED IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS? THAT IS CORRECT. T}IE LEGISLATURE HAS THE AUTHORITY TC GRANT POWER A a F P. O. Aor 2ltd LJ n blOlr Nonh Ctrolto. 2761! iU ;.i'-'! rJr.J I o 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA TO COUNTIES AND TO UPHOLD--AND TO WITHHOLD POWERS FROM COUNT I E S ? A YES. A IT ALSO HAS THAT SAME AUTHORITY FOR OTHER BODIES POLITIC? A YES. A SUCH AS CITIES? A YES. a Ar\iD SCHOOL DISTRICTS? A YES. A AND OTHER SPECIAL DISTRICTS LIKE FIRE DISTRICTS? A YES. A DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY OTHER STATES PROHIBIT THE SUBDIVISION OF COUNTIES IN COMPOSING LEGISLATURE? A I DO NOT KNOW. A DID YOU CONSU.LT WITH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN 1981 DURING THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS ABOUT THE ROLE OF COUNTI ES? A NO. A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO ABOUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES,. IS THAT DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES BLURRED BY THE SUBDIVIDING OF COUNTIES? A I DONIT REMEMBER TESTIFYING TO THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES. A YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW COUNTIES WERE CREATED A P, O. Box 2tlGt lJ R.rach, Nodh crrolh. 27aI I 054 I 2 3 4 D 6 I 8 9 10 1l t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]| PHOENIX, ARIZONA BECAUSE THEY WERE DIFFERENT? A YE S,; UH-HUH. A THAT D I FFERENCE BETI^IEEN COUNT I ES I S NOT BLURRED BY THE SUBDIVIDING OF A SINGLE COUNTY; IS IT? A I THINK IT DEFINITELY IS. A THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COUNTIES IS BLURRED BY SUBDIVIDING WITHIN A COUNTY? A OH, NO. NO; I AM SORRY. A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURRENT APPORTIONMENT AS IT WAS ENACTED? A ONLY IN VERY GENERAL TERMS. A DO YOU AGREE THAT IT COMBINED COUNTIES THAT HAD FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT ECONOMIC INTERESTS? A I HAVE NO OPINION ON THAT. A FOR EXAMPLE, MECKLENBURG AND CABARRUS COUNTIES ARE A SENATE DISTRICT. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS OF CABARRUS COUNTY ARE SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT? A I REALLY HAVE NO OPINION ON THAT. A ARE YOU AWARE THAT CABARRUS COUNTY IS PRIMARILY A TEXTI LE PRODUCING COUNTY? A YES. A AND THAT MECKLENBURG IS NOT PRIMARILY A TEXTILE PRODUC ING COUNTY? A I ASSUME SO. Ff P. O. 8ox 2tt0i, Ll R.blch, Nodh C.Dln. 2r6t t r.055 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .r., 23 24 25 PREC!SION REPORT!NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a AND THAT IN FACT THE ECONOMI ES oF THOSE Tr^/O COUNT I E5 ARE VERY D I FFERENT? A IT IS A MATTER OF DEGREE. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURRENT SENATE DISTRIC NUMtsER 2? A LETIS SEE. IS THIS THE SENATE? THIS IS THE SENATE. a I TL{INK IT tS--A BLOW-UP OF IT IS ON THE EASEL. A ALL RiGHT. THIS ONE? ALL RIGHT. I AM NOW. A LET ME FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE REMOVE THE TOP OVERLAY. A THE YELLOW LINE DEFINES THE DI STR ICT? A THAT IS WHAT PRIOR TESTIMONY HAS ESTABLISHED. A ALL RIGHT. a D() yolt sEE oN THAT MAp CHOWAN COUNTY? A YES. A IS THERE A SUBSTANTIAL BODY OF WATER BETWEEN CHOWAN COUNTY AND BERTIE AND HERTFORD COUNTIES? A YES. A AND DO YOU THINK THAT THAT BODY OF WATER iS THE KIND OF NATURAL BOUNDARY THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SET'ARATES COUNTI ES? A YES. JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU WANT TO IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT TO WHICH WE ARE MAKING REFERENCE HERE? F P. O. 8ox 2llGS LI R.bloh. Xonh C.roIn. 27CI I05t, 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 1,t 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MR. HUNTER: MS. WINNER: BY MS. WINNER: 10 (A). EXHIBIT NUMBER 1O(A). A AP.E ALL AREAS IN THE STATE COVERED BY TOWNSHIPS? A AS FAR AS I KNOW THEY STILL ARE, AT LEAST ON PAPER. A AND ALL AREAS OF THE STATES ARE AT LEAST IN SOME ELECTION PREC INCT? A YES. A DO YOU AGREE THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN ONE PART OF THE COUNTY MAY OR MAY NOT RELATE TO PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE OTHER PART OF THAT SAME COUNTY? A I AGREE THAT THEY MAY. IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO RELATE TO PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE SA PAFI.T OF THEIR OWN COUNTY THAN THEY ARE TO RELATE TO SOME. BODY WHO LIVES EVEN IN AN ADJACENT 'O'*". a BUT FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN CORNELTA_- DO YOU KNOW WHERE CORNELIA IS? A I BELIEVE IT IS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY OR UNION PER.HAPS. IT IS CLOSE TO CHARLOTTE; ISNTT IT? YoU DRIVE THOUGH IT ON THE WAY TO CHARLOTTE. I KNOW THAT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU ASK HIM ANY LITTLE TOWN UP IN PASQUOTANK, HE CAN TELL YOU. BY MS;. WINNER: A IF SOMEONE I IVED IN A SMALL TOWN ON THE NORTHERN - P. O. Bor 2alB u Frbieh, raonh c.rcril aTur r057 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA END OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY, THEY WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO RELATE TO SOI'lEONE I^/HO LIVES IN SOUTHERN I REDELL COUNTY THAN THEY DO TO SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN INNERCITY CHARLOTTE; IS THAT CORRECT? A I WOULD TEND TO DOUBT IT. A DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDCE ABOUT MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A VERY LITTLE. A NOW, YOU SAID THAT THERE WERE 295 RATIFIED LOCAL BILLSi IS THAT CORRECT? A AS OF.JULY IBTH. A WHEN DiD THE LEGI SLATURE AD.JOURN? A JULY 22ND. A SO THE NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS--THERE WERE A NUMBER OF GENERAL BILLS THAT WERE IMPORTANT THAT HAD NOT YET BEEN PASSED? A THAT IS CORRECT. A LIKE THE APPROPRIATIONS BILLS? A YES;. THE APPROPRIATIONS HAD BEEN PASSED AS OF THE 1BTH. BUT THE GENERAL APPROPRIATIONS HAD NOT BEEN. a BUT THE 295 RATI FI ED LOCAL BI LLS--DO YOU KNOI^/ HOW MANY OF THOSE APPLIED TO ONLY ONE COUNTY? A WELL, I HAVE THE PRINTOUT. I COULD COUNT THEM. I WILL ESTIMATE. A WELL, INSTEAD OF ESTIMATING, LET ME ASK A F P. O. Bor ZIS lJ i.brsh. Nonh C.'ohM 27CI x 056 I o 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN CFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA DIFFERENT QUESTION. DID SOME OF THOSE BILLS APPLY TO CITIES AS OPPOSED TO COUNTIES? A WELL, IF THE BILL APPLIES TO THE COUNTY, IT NECESSAP..ILY APPLIES TO ALL CITIES IN THE COUNTY. A DID SOME OF BILLS APPLY ONLY TO A CITY OR CITIES RATHER THAN TO A COUNTY--- A ( INTERPOSING) YrS; CORRECT. a AND SOI.1E OF THOSE BILLS APPLIED TO SCHOOL DISTRICTS? A I PFIESUME SO; YEAH. A AND SOME OF THOSE BILLS APPLIED TO MORE THAN ONE COUN TY ? A YES. a Now, You MENTIONED SOME EXAMPLES OF PROBLEMS WITH LOCAL BILLS. IS IT A PROBLEM--IN THE CURRENT METHOD OF APPORTIONMENT A COUNTY MAY BE IN A DIFFERENT HOUSE DISTRICT THAN SENATE DISTRICT; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES.. A AND IF THAT IS TRUE, THE COUNTY COMMISSION WHO WANTS TO GET A LOCAL BILL PASSED MAY HAVE TO LOOK TO A REPRESENTATIVE WHO WAS IN ONE COUNTY AND A SENATOR I^JHO LIVE IN ANOTHER COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. A DOES THAT PROBLEM EXIST WITH WHOLE COUNTIES AS WELL AS IT EXISTS WITH -DIVIDED COUNTIES? F P. O,8ox 2a!43 lJ Rd.lgh, Nodh Cr.oln. 27CI i0 H; C: tJ t) I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX- ARIZONA A YES. A WAS THERE ANY REASON THAT THE RESIDENTS FROM WALKERTOWN COULD NOT HAVE GONE TO THEIR REPRESENTATIVE TO ASK ABOUT THEIR ANNEXATION--INCORPORATION? A THEY COULD HAVE, BUT THEY HAVE GOT TO GO TO BOTH. FOR LOCAL BILL PURPOSES THE SENATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES ESSENTIALLY FUNCTION AS A UNIT. A AND THEY COULD HAVE GONE TO THEIR REPRESENTATIVE AND TO THEIR SENATOR? A YES. THEY HAVE TO GO TO ALL OF THEM. YOU HAVE GOT TO GET THROUGH BOTH HOUSES. YOU CANrT .JUST GO TO ONE SIDE AND EXPECT TO GET ANYTHING DONE. A BL'T THEY COULD HAVE DONE THAT? A YES. A AND THE PEOPLE FROM FORSYTH COUNTY WHO REPRESENT I^/INSTON-SALEM MAY HAVE OPPOSED THAT; A YES. A AND THAT OPPOSITION MAY HAVE BEEN EXPRESSED? A YES. A SO YOU WOULD HAVE HAD THE REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS WHO REPRESENTED WALKERTOWN ARTICULATING THE NEEDS OF THE I R CONST I TUEI.ITS AND THE REPRESENTAT I VES AND SENATORS WHO REPRESENTED WINSTOI.J-SALEM ARTICULATING THE NEEDS OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS? A YES. A P. O. 0or a'tloll Ll R.hlch. Bonh C..o[m 276il .x.0ti L) 1 2 3 4 c 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A AI.iD THOSE NEEDS MAY HAVE BEEN D I FFERENT ? A YES. A DRAWING YOTIR ATTENTION TO THE WAKE FOREST SITUATiON, THERE WERE MANY OTHER EXAMPLES OF EXCEPTIONS TO THE ANNEXATION LAW I^/ERE NOT PASSED; IS THAT NOT CORRECT? A I CANIT TESTIFY TO THAT. I DO NOT KNOW. a WERE YOU THERE ? I'IERE YOU COVER i NG THE LEG I S- LATIVE SESS iON? A I WAS NOT THERE ON THE LOCAL BILL SIDE OF THINGS THIS SESSION. a so You DoNtT KNow WHETHER h'AKE FOREST WAS ONE OF MANY OTHER EXAMPLTS OF ANNEXATION? A I COULDN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY. IT WOULD BE UNUSUAL IF THERE WERE NOT OTHERS IN THIS SESSiON. BUT I HAVE NOI COUNTED THEM BY CATEGORY YET. I USUALLY DO. I JUST HAVENIT HAD TIME THIS YEAR. a BUT THI S SrSS'r ON WAS UNUSUAL WI TH REGARD TO ANNEXATiON BECAUSE OF THE REVJ S IOI.I TO THE ANNEXATION LAW WHICH WiLL BE IMPOSED? A THAT IS CORRECT. a NOW, THE HOUSE IVIEMBER FROM WAKE COUNTY CERTAINLY HAD THE ABILITY TO KNOW THAT SENATOR SPEED REPRESENTED WAKE FOREST; DIDNIT THEY? A YES. A AND THEY CERTAINLY COULD HAVE GONE TO SENATOR a P, O.8or 2tlGl u Rrbroh Nodh C.rdlnt Z7til n06t 1 2 3 4 5 6 ,| 8 I 10 l1 12 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 SPEEDi COULD THEY NOT HAVE? WELL, A REPRESENTATIVE APPROACH IS A SENATOR GINGERLY AND VICE VERSA. THEY COULD HAVE; YES. HOWEVER, ON A LOCAL BILL--FOR ANY LOCAL BILL lT IS NECESSARY FOR REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS TO COOPERATE; i SN I T THAT CORRECT? YES. AND ON THI S BI LL AS ON ANY OTHER LOCAL BILL, THE ASKED FOR COOPERATION FROM THEREPRfSENTATIVES COULD HAVE SENATOR FROM THAT AREA? A YES. A AND THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED OUTSIDE HIS NORMAL LEGISLATIVE EDIQUETTE? NO. A iS IT A REASONABLE INTERPRETATION THAT SENATOR SPEED SIMPLY .,IUST DI D NOT DO HI S .TOg: A THAT IS A REAS,ONABLE INTERPRETATION. THAT IS CERTAINLY WHAT THE NEWSPAPER SUGGESTED. A AND IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 5O AT PARAGRAPH FOUR--WOULD YOU DO THAT? (wt trurss coMPLI Es. ) A YES. A WOULD YOU JUST READ THE F'IRST SENTENCE OF THAT PARAGRAPH OUTLOUD? ".. .IT IS llo'THE FIRST TIME THE SENATOR HAS PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2llB lJ R.htgh. xonh c.rolrr 2rctt I Uo;I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L qo 23 24 25 DUCKED. II A AND READING THE REST OF THAT PARAGRAPH, THE OTHER EXAMPLE THERE TALKING ABOUT, IT IS NOT A LOCAL BILL, IS IT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A WHAT WAS I T? A THE ERA AMENDMENT. A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF URBAN AND RURAL SPLITS WITHiN COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. A UNDER A MULTi-MEMBER DISTRICT, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ALL OF THE REPRESENTATIVES TO LIVE IN THE URBAN AREA AND NONE OF THEM LIVE IN THE RURAL AREA? A YES. A AND IT IS POSSIBLE, IN FACT, FOR THEM TO ALL LIVE IN ONE SMALL PART OF THE URBANI AREA; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WAKE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVES HAVE LIVED OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF RALEIGH IN THE LAST SIX YEARS? A VERY FEW. MS. l^J I NNER : I DON I T HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS. REDIRECT EXAMINATION 1i5O P.M. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX ARIZONAF P. O. Bor i"El(t Ll R.blgh, t{odh c.iol6. 27ar r l" u63 I I 3 1 5 6 a 8 9 10 l1 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 n 2'r 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2ala lJ R.Ltorr. Nodh c.rotn. 276il tsY MR. LEONARD: A MR. FARRELL, DiD THE ANSWER TO YOTJ GAVE IN ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS WHICH BY COUNSEL IN ANY WAY CHANGE YOUR OPINION ON YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION? ANY QUISTION THAT WERE PROPOUNDED THAT YOU GAVE NO. MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. EXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. FARRELL, AS I UNDERSTOOD YOUR TESTIMONY ABOUT THE THREAT TO THE PRESENT MODE OF DOING BUSINESS IN THE LEGISLI.TURE WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL LEGISLATION, YOU DESCRIBED AS I UNDERSTOOD IT SOME ADVERSE EFFECTS THAT YOU SAW COMING FROM THE SPLITTING OF COUNTIES? YES,. IN MORE THAN ONE DISTRICT? YES. DO YOU THINK THE SAME KINDS OF DIFFICULTIES ATTEND THE GROUPING TOGETHER OF A NUMBER OF COUNTIES IN THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS? IS IT THE SAME PROBLEM? IT SEEMS NOT TO SINCE PEOPLE--THE PARTIES ARE ORGANIZED BY COUNTY. PEOPLE TEND TO KNOW, I THINK PROBABLY LARGELY BECAUSE OF PARTY ORGANIZATION-.IF A PERSON GETS ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE, HE HAS MADE IT HIS BUSINESS TO LU6* 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 oR. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA GET TO KNOW WHO IS WHO IN THAT WHOLE COUNTY. AND IT SEEMS TO WORK FAIRLY WELL. I DO THINK THE 1966 DECI SIOI! WHICH ELIMINATED ONE REPRESENTATIVE PER COUNTY AND REQUIRED MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE HOUSE DISTINCTLY REDUCED THE NUMBER OF LOCAL BILLS BEING INTRODUCED. A IN OTHER WORDS, AS I INTERPRET YOUR SENSE OF THINGS, THE IDEAL SITUATION SiMPLY FROM THE STANDPOINT OF MAKiNG THE LOCAL LEGISLATION PROCESS BASED UPON THE PRESENT UNDERSTANDINGS WERE BEST WOULD BE COUNTIES WITH REPRESEN. TATIVES ONLY FROM THAT COUNTY? A WITH AT LEAST ONE FROM EACH COUNTY IS THE IDEAL WAY TO MAKE IT WORK. THAT IS THE I,JAY IT DEVELOPED. A AND WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT? A WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT FOR 17 YEARS. .JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. FARRE LL. (wT TUTSS EXCUSED. ) MR. LEONARD: THE STATE CALLS MARSHALL RAUCH. ( WHEREUPON, MARSHALL RAUCH WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOI./S : ) DIRECT EXAMINATION 3i53 P.M. - P. O. gor 2Ellxt L, R.broh, Nodh C.rclln. 27at I i.065 1 q 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BY MR. LE0l.lARD : A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE? A MY NAME IS MARSHALL ARTHUR RAUCH. I LIVE AT 1i2I SCOTCH DRIVE IN GASTONIA. A ARE YOU CURRENTLY A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA? AIAM. a WHAT POSTTION DO YOU HOLD? A I AM PRESENTLY CO-CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, AND I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE LEGISLATIVE ETHICS COMMITTEE. a .rN wHrcH HousE? A IN THE SENATE. '{ HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A MEMBER OF THE STATE SENATE, SENATOR RAUCH? A I HAVE BEEN IN THE SENATE L7 YEARS. THIS IS MY I 7TH YEAR. A DI,IR I NG YOUR SENATOR I AL SERV I CE, HOW MANY LEGI SLATIVE REDI STRI CTINGS HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN? A I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN TWO. A WHEN WAS THE FIRST? A I BELIEVE THE FIRST WAS IN 1971. I WAS A MEMBER OF THE SENATE REDI STRICTING COMT4ITTEE. IN 1981 I I,.IAS CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE. F P. O. Bor 2.rdl u nrbloh, t.6h C.,otl{ 270il 1066 I 2, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 N 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN GASTON COUNIY? A 38 YEARS. A DO YOU HAVE A BUSINESS THERE? A I DO HAVE A BUSINESS CALLED RAUCH INDUSTRIES. WE ARE MANUFACTURERS OF CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS. A WHEN DID YOU FIRST SEEK PUBLIC OFFICE IN GASTON COUNTY ? A ABOUT 30 YEARS AGO. THAT IS CLOSE. I RAN AND WAS ELECTED TO THE CITY COUNCIL OF GASTONIA. A THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE EARLY FORTIES? I AM. SORRY, THE EARLY FIFTIES? A ABOUT THAT; YEAH. A I DON ' T HAVE A PH. D. IN MATHEMATICS. I.JAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT FIRST ELECI'ION THAT YOU RAN IN AND WERE ELECTED IN? .A YES. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT A BLACK OR A.JE HAD RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL. AND WE BOTH GOT ELECTED. AND NAT BARBER BECAME CITY TREASURER. I BECAME MAYOR PRO TEM. AND THAT WAS THE FIRST BLACK OFFICER AS I UNDERSTAND IN A CITY IN THAT AREA A LONG, LONG TIME PREVIOUSLY', IF EVER. a DURING TtlE--ri0t'/ LONG DID YOU SERVE ON THE CITY COUNCIL, BY THE WAY? A I SERVED SIX YEARS. A AND YOU WERE ELECTED TO THE SENATE IN 1966? A THAT IS CORRECT. THE FIRST TIME WAS 167 THAT I F t. O. Bor l'llct lJ Rrbroh. lb'rlr Crroflnr 2tarr tLU to''; 1 o 3 4 5 6 I 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 l9 20 2l ,, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCR!BING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA SERVED. A TELL THE COURT A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR OWN PERSONAL BACKGROUND IN GASTONIA AND GASTON COUNTY WITH RESPECT TO YOUR I,JORK IN VARIOUS AREAS OF HUMAN RELATIONS AND CIVIL RIGHTS. A WELL, WHEN I FII.IISHED ABOUT SIX YEARS ON THE CITY COUNCI.L, THE MAYOR THEN APPOINTED A GASTON COUNTY HUMAN RELATIONS COMMITTEE. AND THIS WAS PROBABLY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 20 YEARS AGO. I I.JAS CI-IAIRMAN. AND I GUESS OF ANY OF THE THINGS I MIGHT HAVE ACCOMPLISHED, I GUESS I WAS PROUDER OR PROUDEST OF THE ITCCOMPLI SHMENTS OF THAT HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSiON, BECAUSE THAT WAS A TIME WHEN WE INTEGRATED THEIITERS. THAT WAS A TIME THAT WE DID THINGS THAT PECPLE JUST ACCEPT TODAY. BUT WE INTEGRATED OUR MOVIE THEATERS, OUR RESTAURANTS, OUR MOTELS. THERE I^/ERE A LOT OF THI,NGS DONE AT THAT TIME. AND I WAS CHAIRMAN. AND AFTER THAT I SERVED ON THE NORTH CAROLINA GOOD NEIGHBOR COMMISSION A AND THAT WAS A STATEWIDE EFFORT? A YES. NORTH CAROLINA GOOD NEIGHBOR WAS STATEWIDE. I BELIEVE IT WAS GOVERNOR SANFORD WHO APPOINTED ME. A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE LOCAL ELKS CLUB IN GASTON I A ? A YES. I BELONG TO TWO ELKS CLUBS. I AM A MEMBER OF THE GASTON IA ELKS CL_UB AND I ALSO HAVE AN HONORARY F P. O. 8or alG! U ntbleh, Nodn C.roI[ 27ail i.UIo8 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MEMBERSHIP IN OUR BLACK ELKS LODGE. ME BY GIVING ME CARD NUMBER 1. AND THEY HAVE HONORED a GROUPS ? HAVE YOL' EVER RECEIVED ANY AWARDS FROM BLACK A YES. THE OMEGA PSI PHI, WHICH IS A GASTON COUNTY BLACK FRATERNITY, GAVE ME THE MAN OF THE YEAR AWARD, AND I IVI.S THE FIRST WHITE PERSON TO EVER GET THAT AI^JARD. A NOW, DURING THE COURSE OF THE YEARS, SENATOR RAUCH, HAVE YOU AND YOUR FAMI LY SUPPORTED THE YOUNG PEOPLE OTHER THAN MEMBEF'.S OF YOUR FAMI LY IN THEIR EDUCATIONAL ENDEAVORS? A YES. WE HAVE HELPED BOTH BLACK AND WHITE. I AM ESPECIALLY PROUD OF SOME OF THOSE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO FINISHED COLLEGE: A BLACK DENTIST, A YOUNG BLACK FELLO THAT rS NOW GOING TO GO TO HARVARD:O* SCHOOL, SOME OTHER FELLOWS, .JUST AVERAGE ''JIZENS LIKE MYSELF, WHO ARE NOW WORKING AND SUPPORTING FAMILIES, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE, THAT WE HAVE ENJOYED HELPING. H()W LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN RALPH G INGLES, SR. ? A 30 YEARS MAYBE. RALPH WAS ON THE GASTON COUNTY GOOD NEIGHBOR COUNCIL WITH ME. THAT IS WHEN WE CAME VERY CLOSE--30 YEARS AGO--20 YEARS AGO. a A a HAS HE EVER BEEN IN YOUR HOME? SURE. DO YOU KNOI,/ HIS SON? - P. O. gox 2tlGli LJ R.Bsh. t6fi c.,orm ,!tl iu0ii 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A IISKIPPERIi? a RliLPH, J R. ? A YEAH. I KNOW HIS SON VERY WELL. a AND yOU KNOW THAT rtSKIppERn OR RALpt-t, JR. IS ONE OF THE NAMED PLAINTIFFS IN THIS ACTION? A YES. THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO BOTH OF US. MS. WINNER: A SURPRISE TO MR. GINGLES. WELL, I OBJECT TO WHAT WAS JUDGE PHlLLIPS: WELL, WE WONIT CONSIDER THAT ANSWER. BY MR. LEONARD: a HOW LONG HAV:E YOU KNOWN THE RALPH GINGLES WHo IS A PLAINTIFF IN THIS ACTION? A 25 YEARS OR SO. WHEN HE WAS REAL LITTLE, I DIDNIT KNOW HIM. LETIS SAY AT LEAST 10 OR 15 YEARS. a Now, DrD THERE COME A rimr rN THE 1981 SESSTON OF THE LEGISLATURE WTITN VOU BECAME INVOLVED IN REDISTRICTIN A I AM SORRY? A YOU HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS THIS LAST TIME? A OH, YES. a rELL THE COURT WiAr COMMITTEE IT WAS AND WHAT ROLE YOU PLI'YED? A WELL, THE REDISTRICTING.-THE SENATE REDI STRICTIN WENT TO THE SENATE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE, AND I WAS F P. O. 8d 2t'lcl lJ fut tctr. Nonn c.rc[il 2rutt 10'?'c o I a, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-36t9 a76.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CHAIRMAN OF THAI' COMMITTEE. A WHEN THE PROCESS STARTED, DID YOU TAKE ANY POS I T I ON I,/I TH RESPECT TO WHETHER MEET I NGS WOULD BE PUBL I C OR HELD IN EXECUTIVE SESSION? A YES; I DID. I WANTED ALL THE MEETINGS HELD oPEN. ALMOST ALL oF THEM I,JERE. You KNow, SOMETIMES soME- ONE WILL MAKE A MOTION AND RECOGNIZING THE MOTION IS MADE THEY WILL GO INTO EXECUTiVE SESSION. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT 95--90 OR 95 PERCENT OF OUR MEETING TIME THAT WE SPENT IN MEETINGS WA5 OPEN TO EVERYBODY. A HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE SENATE ARE BLACK OR WERE BLACK IN THAT SESSION? A ONE. A THAT WAS SENATOR FRYE? A THAT IS CORRECT. a DID THERE COME A TIME Wnfr.r HE hJAS A MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE? A YES. AFTER TWO OR THREE MEETINGS--AFTER A MONTH OR TWO--HE WAS APPOINTED TO THE COMMITTEE. HE TOOK SENATOR GRAYIS PLACE WHO WAS FROM HIS DISTRICT. A WERE ALL OF THE VOTES OF THE COMMITTEE EITHER HELD OPENLY OR RECORDED? A ALL VOTES WERE OPEN AND SOME WERE RECORDED. a AND WHEN yOU SAy rCpEN, il yOU MEAN OPEN TO THE PUBLIC AND THE PRESS? F P. O. Bor lArB lJ R.brgh. taodh c.olh. 2761 tu'i i I , 3 4 5 t 7 I I 10 1l t2 13 14 15 r6 L7 18 19 20 2t or) 23 24 25 PREClSION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]. ' PHOENIX, ARIZONA A ALL VOTES WERE DONI.. IN PUBLIC OPEN TO THE PLIBLIC AND THE PRESS. A DURING THE COURSE OF DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM OF REDISTRICTING, SENATOR, TELL THE COURT WHAT PROBLEMS YOU EXPERIENCED FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED UNTIL THE TIME YOU EVENTUALLY WERE ABLE TO PASS A FINAL REDISTRICTING BILL. A WELL, IN THE VERY BEGINNING ESPECIALLY THERE WAS A DEFINITE PROTECTIVE FEELING BY THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE WHICH I THINK IS ONLY NATURAL TO PROTECT THEIR OWN ABILITY TO BE REELECTED. AND ALSO WE WERE UNDER WHAT-- I^JELL, WHAT WAS THE STATE LAW AND UNDER THE CONSTI TUTION. WE WERE REMINDED MANY TIMES THAT WE WERE SWORN NOT TO BREAK COUNTY LINES. THE FIRST PLAN THAT WE DID SEND TO..FOR APPROVAL WAS THE EXACT SAME PLAN THAT EVERYONE HAD BEEN ELECTED ,NDER. wE woRKED oN THAT 'LAN oori* wE *ERE T.LD wE COULDN'T AND AFTER WE *U*' TOLD THAT WE SHOULD BREAK COUNTY LINES AND SHOULD COME UP WITI-I. TWO SPECIFIC DISTRICTS THAT WERE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK. WE DID DO THAT. IT TOOK A WHILE. IT TOOK A NUMBER OF WEEKS. IT TOOK AT LEAST TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS WHERE WE INVITED EVERYONE IN. IT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE NEWSPAPERS. WE WER.E VERY CAREFUL TO DO THAT-.THAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING. WE PUBLISHED IN THE NEI,IS- PAPERS AROUND THE STATE. WE HELD THE PUBLIC HEARINGS. AND F P. O. &r itrl(x! lJ R.5ah. Nonh c.Dxr 2ral LU'? 2 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t1 18 19 n 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORT]NG ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IT WAS ABOUT THEN THAT--WELL, HAVING HEARD FROM THE JUSIICE DEPARTMENT THA't- WE SHOULD BREAK COUNTY LINES, WE DID. AND A BETTER PLAN WAS EVOLVED. AND THE FINAL PLAN/ AS YOU ALL KNOW, DOES HAVE TWO PREDOMINANTLY BLACK DISTRICT AND THAT WAS DONE IN COMPLIANCE WITH t"lHAT WE lt/ERE TOLD TO DO. AND THE COMMITTEE FELT THAT THEY HAD COMPLIED COMPLETELY. YOU WERE TOLD TO DO BY WHOM? BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. A DID YOU PERSONALLY PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE JUSTICE-.THE MEETINGS WITH THE .JUST I CE DEPARTMENT? ANO;IDI JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. a DID YOLJ MEET I NGS ? TO WASHINGTON TO SEE THE WEl.,iT AND SOME LEGI SLATORS. REPORTS FROM THEM AFTER THOSE SULL I VAN FROM OUR STAFF BACK AND HE TOLD US WI.'AT THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE DISTRICT IN THE EAST TO POPUL.ATION, AND THAT IN THAT HAD A PRECOMINANTLY D NOT GO STAFF RECE I VE A YES; I.JE D I D. TERRENCE HAD BEEN TO WASHINGTON. HE CSME WAS GOING TO BE NECESSARY TO DO, CRITERIA, THE PUBLIC HEARING, THE HAVE AT LEAST A 55 PERCENT BLACK ADDITION TO THE GUILFORD DISTRICT BLACK POPULAT ION. a ovER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME DID YOU AND YOUR COMMITTEE DEAL WITH THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS? WHEN DID IT F t. O.8or 2trcg Ll i.bagh. Nodi CJo{n. ztctr t 073 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC, MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA START AND A a A ABOUT 12 ON APRI L a WHET.I DID YOT,I PASS YOUR FINAL REDISTRICTING BILL MAY I LOOK AT THESE NOTES? YES; GO AHEAD. THE FIRST MEETING WAS M/rRCH l7fY, 19BI. WE HAD MEETINGS OF THE COMMITTEE WHEN WE PASSED THE BILL 27rH, t982. SO, ABOUT L3 MONTHS. YOU DEVELOP THE SENATE? DURING THE COURSE OF THOSE DELIBERATIONS, DID ANY CRITERIA TO GUIDE YOU AND THE COMMITTEE IN WE DID. AFTER THE STAFF WENT TO SEE THE .JUSTICE WE ESTABLISHED ANDDEPARTMENT, AT OUR JANUARY 28TH MEETING ACCEPTED THE REAPPORTIONMENT CRITERIA. aANDDIDTHESENATEANDTHECoMMITTEEDEBATEAND EXPERIENCE ANY DIFFICULTIES OR CONFLICTS BECAUSE OF THOSE CRITERIA? A THEy DID. IT WAS COMPr-Lfrly DIFFERENT FRoM WHAT h,E HAD PREVIOUSLY TSTNELISHED, SPECIFICALLY THE BREAKING OF THE COUNTY LINES WAS A BIq PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF THE SENATORS. AND THE CRITERIA WERE DEBATED AND THEY WERE FINALLY ACCEPTED. THEY WERE VOTED ON, MOTION MADE, SECONDED AND FINALLY PASSED. A TO WHAT EXTENT DID THE 40 COVERED AND THE 6O UNCOVERED OR UNDER THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT CREATE A WELL, THERE WERE TWO DI DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NON-COVERED COUNT I ES D I FF I CULT I ES FOR YOU? FFERENT PROBLEMS IN THE F P. O. Bor 2t163 u Brb{sn, Nom c.rch. ar0tt J.U',i /* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o.> 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX ARIZONA EYES OF THE LEGISLATORS. AND THE BIGGEST PROBLEM AS I REMEMBER I^/AS THE BREAK I NG OF THE COUNTY L I NES. NoBoDY WANTED TO BREAK COUNTY LINES. BUT I^/HEN .JUSTICE TOLD US WE HAD TO, THEY WERE BROKEN. AND AS I INDICATED, THEY WERE DONE IN WHAT IS NOW I BELIEVE THE NUMBER TI^/O SENATORIAL DI STRICT, THE OLD NUMBE ONE, WHEP.E WE HAD A 55.1 PERCENT BLACK POPULATION. AND THE OTHER WAS IN GUILFORD I^JHERE WE DO HAVE THE BLACK LEGISLATOR FROM. A DID THERE COME A POINT IN TIME WHEN YOU LEARNED OF PROPOSALS TO CREATE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN SOME OF THE MORE POPULACE COUNTIES? YES. AT LEAST ON TWO OCCASIONS THERE WERE PLANS BROUGHT-.THERE WAS A PLAN BROUGHT FORTH FOR A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT WHICH WAS VCTED ON AND DEFEATED, AND AT LEAST ON TWO OTHER OCCASIONS THERE WAS A NOTTON MADE TO APPOINT A COMMITTEE TO DEVELOP A ''.O* OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. AN THAT I./AS DEFEATED ON AT LEAST. TWO OCCASIONS. I THINK EXACTLY TWO. WHEN I S YOUR FIRST RECOLLECTION OF DISCUSSIONS O VERSUS SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS? WHEMULTI _MEMBER DI STRICTS DID THAT FIRST OCCUR? A I KNOW IF HAPPEI'IED ON APRIL 27TH WHEN SENATOR MI LLS MADE THE MOTION--FEBRUARY 9]H. HERE IT IS. ON FEBRIJARY 9TH, THERE WA-S A PLAN FOR 5O SINGLE MEMBER DISTRIC F P. O.8ox 2tldl lJ tu|.lch. Nm C.rdl[ 27GI _L 0'l 5 1 D 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2t oo 2g 21 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. M.qIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THAT WAS INTRODUCED BY SENATOR FRYE, MOTION MADE, SECONDED) VOTED ON AND FAiLED. A WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? A FEBRUARY 1982. AND ON THAT SAME DAY, SENATOR MILLS, SECONDED BY SENATOR NOBLE, MADE A MOTION FOR A THREE-MAN SUBCOMMITTEE TO WORK ON SINGLE MEMBER PLANS. AND THAT ALSO FAILED. A NOW, SENATOR RAUCH, PRIOR TO FEBRUARY gTH OF 1982, HAD ANYONE FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA APPROACHE YOU TO URGE YOU TO SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF SINGLE MEMBER D I STR I CTS IN THE LARGER METROPOL I TAN COUNT I ES? A I DONTT THINK SO. BUT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT SENATOR BILLY.-SENATOR BILL MILLS ALWAYS WANTED, I BELIEVE IT WAS, NUMBERED SEATS. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME I HEARD IT WAS FEBRUARY gTH WHEN SENATOR FRYE ASKED THAT WE VOTE ON A SINGLE MEMBE* ""*"'. AND THEN SENATOR MILLS MADE A MOTION FOR A SUBCOMMITTEE TO STUDY IT. A \^/HEN DID RALPH GINGLES, .JR., THE PLAINTI FF IN THIS ACTION, FIRST CONTACT YOU TO URGE YOU TO SUPPORT SiNGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE LARGER METROPOLITAN COUNTI ES? A HE NEVER DID. A DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT MR. GINGLES IS A CONSTITUENT..THE PLAINTIFF IN THIS CASE IS A CONSTITUENT OF YOURS? F P. O. lor iBtc! Ll Rtbtelr Noiri C.rothr 27at r t0''/ a 1 2 3 1 b 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 m 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A SURE, HE IS. A DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE LIVES? A SURE. A AT THE TIME YOU--INCIDENTALLY, DID YOU SUPPORT SEI.IATOR FRYE C)R SENATOR MILLS--STRIKE THAT. DID YOU SUPPORT SENATOR FRYEI S PF:OPOSAL FOR SINGLE MEMBER DI STRICTS A AS CIIAIRMAN, I DIDI'lIT VOTE. AS I RECALL, TT WAS DEFEATED RESOUNDEDLY, THOUGH. A DID YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THAT PROPOSAL? A FRANKLY AND 'SELFI SHLY I I^IOULD PROBABLY BE REELECTED MUCH EASIER IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT. SO I BELIEVE I PROBABLY LIKE SINGLE MEMTJER DISTRICTS PERSONALLY. a UP UNTI L FEBRUARY 9TH, 1982, HOW MANY l^JHI TE PEOPLE OR BLACK GROUPS IN THE STATE CONTACTED YOU URGING YOU TO SUPPOP.T SINGLE MEMBER DISTRi''''" A I DONIT BELIEVE ANY. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME I EVER HEARD OF IT COMING FROI.,1 THE BLACK PEOPLE WAS AT THAT MEETING. A AND DID YOTJ RECEiVE CONTACTSFROM BLACK GROUPS IN THE DISTRICT THAT YOU REPRESENT URGING YOU TO SUPPORT SINGLE MEI,lBER DISTRICTS? A NO. AND I HAVENIT NOW. A VfITH RESPECT TO THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT WAS HELD I N f'EBR.UARY OF T982, WHAT STEPS D I D YOU TAKE TO ENSURE THAT F P. O. Aor 1tr16s LJ F.brgn. Nonh C.rotil 2ilrr i0"r'7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457t PHOENIX ARIZONA THAT MEETING WAS PLIBLICIZED SO THE PUBLIC KNEW ABOUT IT? A WE ESTABLISHED A PRESS NOTICE. I BELIEVE WE PASSED A SPECIFIC NOTICE APPROVED BY EVERYONE IN THE COMMITTEE, AND THAT NOTIFICATION WAS SENT TO I BELIEVE 1O MAJOR NEWSPAPERS IN THE STATE AND HIGHWAY PATROLMEN TOOK MAPS THAT WE HAD DRAWN THAT WE WERE GOING TO TALK ABOUT AND HAD THEM PUT ON A NUMBER--MAYBE 1O--I BELIEVE THEY WERE DISTRIBUTED TO ALL THE COURTHOUSES. I TAKE THAT BACK. IT WAS ABOUT IO NEWSPAPERS THAT WE SENT THE PUBL.IC NOTICE TO. BUT WE HAD AND PUT THEM UP IN THE WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. THE HIGHWAY PATROL DELIVER THE MAPS COURTHOUSES IN THE STATE SO EVERYBOD PUBL I C I.IEAR I NG HELD ? THE AUDITORIUM IN THE LEGISLATIVE I^JHERE WAS THAT IT WAS HELD INA BUI LDI.NG. a A a A a MANY PFOPLE A 3 O O.-MAY BE BECAUSE I T WERE YOU PERSONALLY PFIESENT? I WAS. DID YOU CHAIR THAT MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE? I BELIEVE I DID. COULD YOU GIVE THE COURT AN ESTIMATE AS TO HOW ATTENDED THAT MEETING? IF I TOOK A GUESS AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, NOT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 10O AND JOO. BUT I DO KNOW WAS IN THE MINUTES THAT ONLY EIGHT PEOPLE SPOKE. F P. O. Dor 2lla! lJ e.r.tsh, Nodh c.re0nr ,ral -1 0'7 6 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 t3 1,1 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A'l- THE F IRS'f PUBLIC HEARING, ONLy ONE pERSON SPOKE. A WAS THERE AMPLE OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO TEST I FY? A OH, yES. WE OFFERED EVERYBODY AN OPPORTUNITy. I BELIEVE I REMEMBER THERE WAS ONE PERSON AT THE FIRST AND I BELIEVE THERE WERE EIGHT AT THE SECOND. BUT I HAVE IT EXACTLY HERE. ON OCTOBER 2OTH, IN THE JOINT PUBLiC HEARING, THERE WERE EIGHT SPEI.KERS. THAT IS CORRECT, OCTOBER 2OTH, 1981. EIGHT SPEAKERS CAME. AT THE MAY 2 1ST PUEJL I C HEAR I NG, ONLY ONE SPEAKER CAME. a THAT WAS 1981? A 1981, MAY 21ST, ONE SPEAKER CAME, DONNA JONES FOR COMMON CAUSE. SHE WAS THE ONLY SPEIIKER--MAY 2lST' 1981 ON OCTOBER 2OTH FOR THE JOINT PUBLiC HEARING, EIGHT SPEAKER CAME. I AM SORRY. I DID NOT HAVE THE EXACT NUMBER ON THE | 82 oNE. a Do YoU HAVE A RECOLLECTION ROUGHLY HOW MANY PEOPLE TESTIFIED THAT DAY? A I WOULD BE GUESSING. a WELL, DONTT DO THAT. A OKAY. IT WOULD BE IN THE MINUTES, OF COURSE. MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL. JUDGE PHJ LLI PS: CROSS-EXAMI NAT I ON? F P. O, lor 2!tGt lJ tuboh. Nonn C.Elrn. 2?arl iu" t' tl I a, 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CROSS- EXAMINATION 4iL7 P.M. BY MS. GUINIER: A IF I COULD .JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THAT? A OH, YES, CERTAINLY. A SENATOR, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED.]UST A FEW MINUTES AGO THAT YOU WERE PERSONALLY PRESENT AT THE PUBLIC HEARING, WHI CH PUBLIC HEARING I4ERE YOU REFERRING TO? A WELL, I WAS AT ALL THE MEETINGS. SO, THERE WERE TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS AS I RECALL. I WAS A'I'BOTH OF THOSE. AND I WAS AT EVERY MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE. .A NOW, WHICH TWO PUBLIC HEARINGS ARE YOU REFERRING TO? A I GAVE YOU THE DATES. THE FIRST WAS THE ONE THA I MENTIONED WHEN ONLY ONE PERSON FROM COMMON CAUSE SPOKE. THEN THERE |,JAS ANOTHER ONE WHICH WAS A JOINT ONE, AND THERE WERE EIGHT PEOPLE WHO CAME AND SPOKE. 1981? A AND BOTH OF THOSE PUBLIC HEARINGS TOOK PLACE IN A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND BOTH OF THOSE PUBLIC HEARINGS TOOK PLACE PR.OR TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ISSUING ANY LETTERS OF OBJECT IOI.I TO THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT? A I BELIEVE THAT IS CORRECT. A WTRE YOU ALSO PRESENT AT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT F P. O. Bor i'tlfr3 lJ R.ben, No^h c.6ttm arorl L 0gc 1 I 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA TOOK PLACE AFTER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD ISSUED ITS OB.JECTION TO THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT PLAN? A YES. A WHEN DID THAT PUBLIC HEARING TAKE PLACE? A I DONIT REMEMBER THE DATE. BUT THAT T BELIEVE WAS AROUND EARLY FEBRUARY. a IN FACT, THAT TOOK PLACE--- MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE ME. IF THE COURT PLEASE, THE I^/iTNESS HAS OBVIOUSLY USED SOME NOTES OF THE MEETINGS TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION SO HE WOULD BE ACCURAT WITH RESPECT TO THE DATES. , AND COUNSEL HAS TAKEN THOSE NOTES AWAY FROM HIM. I THINK HE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE THEM BAC K. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE COUNSEL A COPY IF IT WOULD FACILITATE HER CROSS-EXAMINATION. MS. GUINIER: THAT WOULD BE FINE. .JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THAT SEEMS LI KE A PERFECT SOLUT I ON. MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? JUDGE PHI LLi PS: YES. (OOCUMTUT HANDED TO WITNESS.) BY MS. GU I N,I ER : A SENATOR RAUCH, LOOKING AT YOUR NOTES, IS THERE ANYTHING ON YOUR NOTES ABOUT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT TOOK PLACE IN FEBRUARY OF L9B2? F P. O. Bor I't!63 LI B.ueh, xoni C.rcrh. 27aI r_ ugl 1 , 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 r9 20 2l .lq 2g 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A WE HAD A PUISLIC HEARING. yES, IF yOU LOOK UNDER JANUARY 2BTH, 1982, THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING WAS TO PASS TilE PLAN AND TO HAVE A PUBL I C HEAR I NG, AND THEN HAVE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ME'ET. SO THAT WE HAD A PUBLIC HEARING AFTER THAT .JANUARY 2 BTH MEET I NG. A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU HAD EVER HEARD THE ISSUE OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS AT A MEETING OF THE COMMITTEE ON FEBRUARY 9, 1982; IS THAT CORRE CT ? A THAT IS CORRECT. THAT IS RIGHT. A WERE YOL' ALSO PRESENT AT A PUBLIC HEARING THAT WAS DISCUSSED ON .JANUARY 28TH, AND THAT WAS HELD SOMETIME AFTER THAT? A I AM NOT SURE WE HAD A PUBLIC HEARING ON .JANUARY 28TH. THAT IS WI-iEN WE ARRANGED TO HAVE ONE. A DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY TIAVT A PUBLIC HEARING ON FEBRUARY I+TH? A WE MUST HAVE; YES. ^ A AND AT THAT PUBLIC HEARING-.WERE YOU PRESENT? A YES. A AND AT THAT PUBL I C I-IEAR ING, DI D YOU HEAR KELLY ALEXANDER TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE STATE AND NAACP? A YESi. YOU ARE CORREC'T. AND I WILL APOLOGIZE. BU I F YOU WILL NOTICE ON MY I{OTES I GO FROM .JANUARY 28TH TO FEBRUARY gTH. AND THAT IS WHY I SAID ON FEBRUARY gTH HENRY F P. O. 60r 2t16:t u e.Hsh. ;aodh cryctm arlr i 0t2 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA FRYE BROUGHT IN THE PLAN BY THE BLACK LAWYERS FOR SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. BUT YOU ARE CORRECT; I HAD TO HAVE HEARD IT AT THE PUBLIC HEARING AND THE DATE OF THAT WAS AS YOU SAI D--W/iS I T FEBRUARY 4? a THAT IS WHA]' I SAID. A THAT iS CORRECT. I AM SORRY. A TF.AT WAS PRIOR TO THE COMMITTEE MEETING AT WHICH SENATOR FRYE INTRODUCED--- A (INTERPOSING) THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. A AND AT THAT PUBLIC HEARING, DID YOU ALSO HEAR V(ILLIE LOVETT TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE? A I AM SORRY; I CANIT REMEMBER THAT. FOR SOME REASON THAT DATE IS OUT OF MY NOTES. A DID YOU RECALL ROBERT DAVIS TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE. MECKLENBURG COUNTY BLACK POI-i T I.CAL CAUCUS I N FAVOR OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS? A I AM SORRY. FOR SQME REASON, WHATEVER, THAT DATE IS NOT IN MY NOTES. A DO YOU HAVE ANY MEMORY INDEPENDENT OF YOUR NOTES OF THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT TOOK PLACE ON FEBRUARY 4TH? A YES,. I DO REMEMBER THE MEETING. AND I DO REMEMBER PEOPLE TESTIFYING. BUT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO TELL YOU WHAT THEIR NAMES WERE. A IN FACT, THE_RE WERE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE WHO F P. O. 8or 26lal LI F.breit Nofr c.dril atrll 083 5 6 1 , 3 4 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2r ,., 23 24 ,) <, PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PI-{CENIX, ARIZONA TESTIFIED ON BEHALF OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA FOR THE SENATE? A I AM SORRY; I DONIT KNOW. THE MINUTES WOULD TEL YOU EXACTLY. A SO YOU HAVE NO INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF THAT MEETING? A I DONIT. I DO HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THE MEETIN I DO NOT HAVE AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF WHO BY NAME S POKE . A DO YOU HAVE AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF WHETHER A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SPOKE ON BEHALF OF BLACK GROUPS ACROSS THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA? A THERE HAD TO BE SEVERAL THERE. A AND DO YOLJ HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF WHETHER THOSE PEOPLE WHO SPOKE ON BEHALF OF BLACK GROUPS ACROSS THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA SPOKE IN SUPPOP.T OF SINGLE MEMBER DI STRI C A PROBABLY, BUl. I Al4 NOT POS I T I VE. I AM NOT TRY I N TO BE DI FFICULT. BUT I AM .JUST TRYING TO BE HONEST. A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE FIRST SESSION FOR THE SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT TOOK PLACE IN A LONG SESSION FROM JANUARY THROUGH JULY; IS THAT CORRECT? THAT IS FOR THE 1981 REAPPORTIONMENT? A WE STARTED; YES, ON MARCH 19TH, 1981. a AI'iD WHEN DID YOU END THAT FIRST SESSIOT'I? A WELL, AT THE LAST MEETING DURING THE REGULAR - P. O. Bor 2tl6s lJ e.hgh. xonh C.roltil 27ar! LL)84 1 2 4 5 6 a 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SESS ION, I T WAS PROBABLY .JUNE l ITH. THEN WE HAD A SPEC IAL SESSION IN OCTOBER. I BELI EVE WE HAD PERHAPS TWO OF THEI4 IN OCTOBER, AND THEN WE WENT BACK IN JANUARY. A NOW, BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU HAD YOUR REGULAR SESSION-.THAT IS, BETWEEN MARCH AND JUNE 11TH--WAS SENATOR FRYE T. MEMBER OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON REAPPORTIONMENT? A NO; HE WAS NOT. A NOW, WHEN YOL' ORIGINALLY REDISTRICTED IN THE 1981 LONG SESSION, YOU FELT THAT YOU WERE UNDER A CONSTI- TUTIONAL MANDATE NOT TO BREAK COUNTY LINES, IS THAT CORRECT ? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THAT IS A MANDATE OF THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTION? A THAT IS RIGHT. a rN FACT, WHEN YOL| SUASTqUTNTLY RECONVENED IN .JANUARY, 1g82, YOU RECONVENED BECAUSE YOU HAD HEARD THAT YOti COULD IN FACT BREAK COUNTY- LINES; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND YOU REMEMBER, DON'T YOU, THAT THE ATTORNEYS WHO WERE ADVISING YOU TOLD YOt' THAT YOU COULD SPLIT COUNTIES? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND YOU WERE TOLD IN GENERAL THAT IF YOU BREAK ONE COUNTY LINE, YOTj COULD BREAK THEM ALL? a P- O. Bor 2al6lt LJ a.brqn. Nodh c.dril 27al 1Oii ! a 1 a, 3 4 5 6 a 8 I 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 r9 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA .I-HAT IS ALSO CORRECT. A AND IN FACT, AS A RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICEIS OBJECTION TO THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, YOU WERE PERMITTED TO BREAK COUNTY LINES WHEREVE THAT WAS NECESSARY TO GET PREDOMINANTLY BLACK DISTRICTS? A R I GHT. A AND IN FACT, AS A RESULT OF THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT IN YOUR OPINION, THE PROVISION_- EXCUSE ME. AS A RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTICEIS OBJECTION TO THE NORTH CAROLINA AMENDMENT, IN YOUR OPINION THOSE AMENDMENTS WERE IITHROWN OUTII, IS THAT CORRECT? A I AM SORRY; AMENDMENTS? I DON'T QUITE UNDER- STAND YOU. A THE AMENDMENTS THAT PROHIBITED DIVIDING COUNTIES WERE THROWN OUT AS FAR AS YOU I^JERE CONCERNED AS A RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTI CE I S OAUTCTION TO THOSE AMENDMENT THAT IS CORRECT. WE COULD BREAK THE LINES. AND WER.E YOU NOT IN.FACT TOLD THAT THE PROHIBITI AGAINST COUNTY LINES THAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE LEGISLATIVE CRITERIA THAT YOU REFERRED TO IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION-. WERE YOLI NOT TOLD THAT THAT PROHIBITION WAS PRIMARILY AN ANTI-GERRYMANDER PROVI S ION? I DON ' T BE L I EVE I V./AS TOLD THAT. IT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SENATOR, THAT LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING CRITERIA THAT YOU REFERRED THE TO a F ?. O.8or itrtas lJ icblrn. Nodh Crroltr ?rut r.UCI6 1 , 3 4 5 6 7 8 0 l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA I NDI CATED I'I1AT YOU COULD CROSS COUNTY L INES? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AI\ID THIS LEGISLATIVE CRITERIA WAS THE BASI S oN WHI CH YOU RED I STR I CTED THE SENATE? A THAT IS CORRECT. A NOW, AFTER THIS PARTICULAR LAWSUIT WAS FILED AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD OB.JECTED TO BOTH THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AS WELL AS TO THE FIRST SENATE REAPPORTIONMENT PLAN--- A (IruTERPOSING) EXCUSE ME. WHAT DO YOU REFER TO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE NORTH CAROLINA AMENDMENT? I AM NOT FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH IT. A THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE REFERRING TO, SENATOR, IS THE PROVISION AGAINST DIVIDING COUNTIES. THANK YOU. I JUST ACCEFT THAT AS PART OF THE CONSTITUTION. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY. a oKAY. I AM SORRYT- I T HOPE I T I5 CLEAR. A CLEAR. , A AND THAT DOESNIT CHANGE ANY OF THE ANSWERS THAT YOIJ GAVE ? A NO; NO. A NOW, AFTER THIS LAWSUIT WAS FILED AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD OBJECTED BOTH TO THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIOI'IAL PROVISION AS WELL AS TO THE FIRST F P. O. Bot 2ilt! u F.Hen, t6nh c.roth. 2tGrr _t u0';, o t .) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1l t2 l3 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o.) 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SENATE REAPPORTIOI.IMENT PLAN, YOU TOLD THE STAFF TO COME UP WITIi GOOD PLANS THAT WOULD ENABLE OR ENHANCE THE ELECTION OF MINORITIES; IS THAT CORRECT? A DEFINITELY. A AND THIS MEANT DRAWING SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS WHERE A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WITHIN WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT WERE BLACK IF A SINGLE MEMBER D I STR I CT WERE DRAWN? A THAT IS CORRECT. A ATJD YOU WERE NOT TOLD OF ANY LEGAL REASON WHY THIS COULD NOT BE DONE ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE? A THAT IS RIGHT. A AND YOU WERE NOT TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IT COULD ONLY BE DONE iF THE PLAN T,/ERE GERRYMANDERED? A NO. a AND YOU TJERE ADVISED BY ine STAFF OR By THE COUNSEL I,/HO WERE RETAINED THAT THEY WERE LOOKING SPECIFI- CALLY AT MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO.SEE IF A 65 PERCENT MA.JORITY BLACK DISTRICT COULD BE DRAWN? A WE TALKED ABOUT THAT; YES. .iUDGE PHI LI-iPS: WE WI LL AD.JoURN FOR TODAY. (THE PROCEEDING WAS, RECESSED AT 4:]O P.M., TO RECONVENE ON TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, 1983, AT 9:OO A.M.) F P. O. &r 2ll*l lJ R.br$. Nor$ C.E[m 27art .d_ u36 o 1 , 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 t6 t7 18 r9 n 2l 22 23 24 25 CERTIFICATE I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE PRECEDING 92 PAGES REPRESENT A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD oN MONDAY, AUGUST 1, 1ggl, AT RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA. THIS, THE 4TH DAY OF AUGUST, tggl. JO B. BUSH, CVR OFFICIAL. REPORTER UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2alat LJ R.hach, xorrh c.D[m 2r!tt