Williams v. Wallace Transcript of Record (Pages 355-764)

    7  !/\ )< 5 v t U  cji_

SELMA



Document Title Page
Civil Docket US District Court 1-4
Complaint 5-11
Motion for Preliminary Injunction 12
Motion for Temporary Restraining Order 14-15
Order Denying Motion for Temporary Restraining Order 16-17
Duplicate Copy of Above (onion-skin, hard to read) 18-19
Return on Serving of Writ (Temporary Restraining Order)

• Fred Gray 20
• John Lewis 21

Order 22-23
Motion to Dissolve Temporary Restraining Order 24-25
Order 26
Plaintiff’s Memo of Points and Authorities 27-35
Order of US Intervenes (poor quality) 36-37
Complaint in Intervention 38-46
Cert of AG of US 47
Return on Service of Writ Order, Complaint in Intervention, Cert on
AG

• A1 Lingo 48
• James C. Clark 50

Petition to Show Cause Why Martin Luther King, J r  et al Should Not 52-55
be Punished for Contempt
Order Denying Motion For Temporary Restraining Order (poor 56-58
quality) marked Exhibit A
Exhibit B- Police Affiants March 9 58-59
Motion to make Injunction Permanent 60-63
George Wallace and Al Lingo 64-67
Return on Service of Writ Order Denying Motion for Temporary
Restraining Order

• Charles H. Jones, J r 68
• Fred Gray 69
• Amelia Boynton 72
• Hosea Williams 73
• Reverend Martin Luther King, J r 74

Order Denying Clark’s Motion to Make Injunction Permanent 75-76
Summon 78-79
Return of Service of Writ, Summons & Complaint, Motion for
Preliminary Injunction

• George Wallace 79
• James G. Clark 81
• Al Lingo 82

Duplicate of Above-Signed by Clark & Lingo as Unacceptable 83-85
Document Above Withdrawn from an Exhibit 89



Memo Transcript 499-507
Motion for Stay Preliminary Injunction Pending 508
Index-Witnesses Exhibits 509-514
Transcript

• Vol. 1 515-764
• Vol. 2 765-1027
• Vol. 3 1028-1275

Reply to: Attn, of Auja 1277-1278
Order for Return of Cash Appeal Bond 1279
Transcript, James Michael Barko 1280-1318
Order Denying Defendant Injunction 1319
Exhibit 1320-1325
Subpoena

• John Cloud 1326
• Annie Louree Fuller 1327
• Michael Benjamin Mosely 1328
• Richard Valeriani 1329
• John Cross 1330

• James Martin, Tom Lankford 1331

Subpoena Return on Service
• A1 Lingo 1332-133
• Leon Daniel 1334
• Returned Unexecuted 1335-1337
• George Stover 1338
• Mr. William (Bill) Jones 1339

Return on Service of Writ
• A1 Ling 1340
• Hon. George C. Wallace 1341

Return on Service
• A1 Lingo 1342
• Mrs. Addie Lily 1343
• Ceola Miller 1344
• Hon. Wilson Baker 1345
• Sister Michael Ann 1346

Attachment 1347
Return on Service, M.J. Anderson 1348-1349
Return on Service

• James G. Clark 1350
• Col. A1 Lingo 1351-1352
• Jack Johnson 1353
• Arthur Worthy 1354
• Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 1355

• Mr. Leon Daniel (not executed) 1356
1357
1358• Mr. Curtis Reese (not executed)



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

NORTHERN DIVISION

Hosea Williams, John Lewis and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
of themselves and others 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
United States of America,

Plaintiff-Intervenor, 
vs

Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama;
A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Civil Action 
No. 21B1-N.

FILED
MAR 3 0 1965 

-R, c- DOBSON- c1-EHK
’ Deputy Cterk

Before Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965.

(NOTE: This transcript is an excerpt transcript
containing the testimony of ASBURY MIDDLEBROOKS 
witness for the defendant, James G. Clark, in 
hearing in above case March 11-12-13-15-16, 196 
which testimony was adduced on March 15, 1965.)

Glynn Henderson, 
Official Court

Reporter.



I

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

NORTHERN DIVISION

Hosea Williams, John Lewis 
and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
of themselves and others 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
IiUnited States of America,

Plaintiff-Intervenor, 
vs

Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama;
A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Civil Action 
No. 2181-N.

Before Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery, 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965.

A p p e a r a n c  e s:
For the Plaintiffs: Gray & Seay

(Fred D. Gray and 
Solomon S. Seay, Jr.), 

Peter A. Hall,
Jack Greenberg,
Norman Anaker,
Charles H. Jones, Jr., 
Oscar W. Adams,
Demetrius C. Newton,
James M. Nabrit, III, 
Charles S. Ralston.

For the United States: Ben Hardeman, 
John Doar, 
David Reuben.



For George C. Wallace: 
(and for A1 Lingo 
3/11-12)

For A1 Lingo:
(from 3/13)

For Janes G. Clark:

C-oodwyn & Smith 
(Maury D. Smith, 
Charles M. Crook, and 
John S. Bowman).

John P. Kohn, Jr.

McLean Pitts,
P. H. Pitts,
J. E. Wilkinson, Jr., 
T. C-. Gayle.

(HOTS: This transcript is an excerpt transcript
containing the testimony of ASBURY MIDDLEBROOKS, 
witness for James G. Clark, in hearing in above 
case March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965, this testimony 
having been adduced on March 15, 1965.)



ASBURY MIDDLEBROOKS, witness for James C-. Clark, having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. P. H. PITTS:
Q Would you state your name, please?
A Asbury Middlebrooks.
Q And by whom are you employed, Mr. Middlebrooks?
A Dallas County, Sheriff Clark.
Q And how long have you been so employed?
A Since the lot of Jul}̂ .
Q All right, and where were you employed prior to your amplovnnent 

with the Dallas County Sheriff?
A Shuptrine Cattle Company, in Selma.
Q All right, and have you had any previous police training prior 

to your coming with the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department?
A I had approximately six years, over the week ends, as a

substitute, as a special deputy, assisting Sheriff Clark’s 
Department.

Q And did you —  do you have any other training beside this?
A I was discharged out of the Military Police, World War II.
Q You were a member of the Military Police during World War II?
A I was.
Q Nov/, is one of your principal duties for the Dallas County 

Sheriff’s Department as a photographer?
A That is right.

3



i Q And have you taken certain pictures in and around the Dallas 
County Court House during the month of February and March?

A Yes.

! Q Now, Mr. Middlebrooks, I show you here Defendants’ Exhibit nurn’otw 
11, and ask you as to whether or not you took these photographs 
and on what dates they were taken?

A On the second and twenty-two.
Q Is that February 22, 1965?
A That —  that is right.
Q All right, and these photographs were taken by you?
A That’s right.
Q Now, would you please explain to the court just exactly what 

these photographs depict?
| A These photographs are made of large crowd gathering by —  around 

a filling station; this first picture —
THE COURT: He just asked generally, not each

photograph.
Q Generally?
A Generally, large crowds gathering, very angry crowds gathering 

in --
MR. GREENBERG: Object.
MR. NABRIT: Move to strike, your honor.

Q Well, these --
THE COURT: I sustain it to the extent of the crowd,

his characterization of the size.

4



These pictures then just show crowds gathered in and around the
Dallas County Court House: is that correct?
Yes, sir.
All right. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, was there a 
that question. Is there a heavy flow of traffic 
the Dallas County Court House?
It is.
And during the times of these demonstrations, was 
traffic congestion?

ny —  I withd: 
in and around

■u

there any

Very much so.
And there are traffic lights or traffic controls located at the 
corner of the Dallas County Court House?
It is.
This is an automatic traffic signal? 
It is.
Now, at any time during the month of Februarjr, when these 
demonstrations took place, did the Selma Police Department have 
a policeman directing traffic at this corner?
They did.
And was there a lot of traffic congestion in and around this 
area during these periods of time --- 
Yes, sir.
—  in February?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
All right. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, I show you here Defendants'



Exhibit number 10, and ask you on what date these photographs 
were taken and if they were taken by jrou?

A February 16, 196$.
Q And generally, what do these photographs show?
A The people coming into the voter registration office, these

particular pictures show them coming in to sign the registration 
book.

Q Show them coming in to sign the registration book?
A In the corridor of the Court House.
Q All right, and where was this registration bock set up in the 

Dallas County Court House?
A Just inside of the entrance, the Lauderdale Street entrance to 

the Court House.
Q All right. And do these pictures which you have in your hand, 

which is Defendants’ Exhibit number 10, show various Negro 
citizens signing the voter registration book?

A It does.
Q Which is in this corridor?
A Yes, it does.
Q And in this picture, these three pictures here, do you see any 

member of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department or a State 
Trooper present in these pictures?

A Members of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department.
Q All right, do you see any State Troopers shown in this picture?
A I do not.



Q

A
Q
A

Q
A

Q
A
Q

A
Q

A

Q
A
Q
A
Q

A

7

All right, now, on the second page 
10, which are —  which is February 
there that you recognize?
I do.
And who is that person?

of Defendants’ Exhibit numbejr 
16, 1965, do you see anybody

C. C. Vivian. 
C. T. Vivian?
Vivian, Bennie Tucker.
Bennie Tucker?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
All right. Now, did —  were you present on this particular 
date, Deputy Middlebrooks?
I was; I made the photograph.
All right, and did you notice G. T. Vivian at any time prior to 
the —  to the time this photograph was taken?
Several occasions, other occasions he had been up at the Court 
House.
All right, but on this particular day, on February 16, 1965 —  
No.
—  did you see him before this photograph was taken?
No.
And ’where does this photograph show C. T. Vivian: what does it 
depict, if you will relay that to the court?
It is on the Dallas —  on Alabama Avenue entrance to the Court
House



8

Q

A
Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q

All right, and on this particular date, was the entrance, the 
Alabama entrance to the Dallas County Court House, blocked or 
obstructed?
It was.
And could anybody else who wanted to carry on business in the 
Dallas County Court House obtain entrance through this door?

MR. GRAY: Objection.
Absolutely not.
Now, was this on the day that C. T. Vivian was arrested?
It was.
All right, and he was arrested, then, on February 16, 1965?
He was.
And this is on the Alabama side entrance of the Court House? 
Correct.
Nov/, the Lauderdale side of the Court House, is there another 
entrance at this —  on the Lauderdale side?
It is.
All right, and is this a double door entrance?
Double door.
All right. Now, is the Lauderdale side —  is this the entrance 
that the voter registration line came through?
Correct.
All right. Nov/, Deputy Middlebrooks, I show you here Defendant 
Exhibit number 12, and ask you on what date these pictures were 
taken and what —  as to whether or not they were taken by you?

s



A
Q 

! A 
Q! ^

! A 
! Q
A

II

Q
A

Q
A
Q

A
Q

Q

A
Q

9

On March 6, 1965.
Now, what -- on what day was March 6, 1965?
On Saturday.
On a Saturday?
Yes, sir.
And what does these pictures depict?
These pictures are pictures of the Lutherans approaching the 
Court House.
All right. Now, on the second page there?
Second page is also —  is across Lauderdale Street approaching 
the Court House —
All right.
-- corner of Lauderdale and Alabama.
Was there any traffic congestion while these —  the Lutherans 
were crossing the street there?
There was a complete traffic jam.
All right, and was it necessary for the City Police to place a 
policeman at this corner to direct traffic?

MR. HALL: We object, your honor.
THE COURT: I sustain it.

Did the City Police place a policeman at this corner to direct
traffic? 
They did. 
All right. Now, on the third page of Defendants’ Exhibit number



10

A
Q
A

Q

Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A

os:
A

Q

12, what do these pictures show?
Large crowds gathering.
All right, and did you observe these crowds that were gathering 
I did, because I was making photographs: I mingled with the cro 
All right, and is —  these pictures are —  is this crowd in 
front of the Dallas County Court House, or are they across the 
street, or just where are they?
This top picture is in front of Federal Building, the corner 
of Federal Building, on Alabama and Lauderdale. They were on 
the corner and all down in front of the Federal Building.
All right, and how far did this crowd extend from the Federal 
Building down toward Turner Motor Company?
All the way down to Church Street.
All the way to Church Street?
Church Street.
And would that be one city block in Selma?
One city block.
And what does this second photograph on page three depict?
Large crowd on Lauderdale Street by the drug store, Post Office 
Drug Store, corner of Alabama and Lauderdale.
All right, and the third photograph?
The third photograph is also at the corner of the Federal 
Building.
All right. Now, in your best estimate, how many people would 
you say was across the street from the Court House and over their



11

on the Post Office Drug Store corner, to your best estimate? 
MR. HALL: Your honor, we object to this.
THE COURT: Overrule, to that question.

Go ahead?
I -- I would just off hand guess, I would say approximately a 
thousand to fifteen hundred.
All right, and this is in and around the Court House and across 
the street?
Correct.
Was this mostly white people or Negro citizens or —  or just 
what ?
In front of the Federal Building was mostly colored, and across 
by the Post Office on Alabama and Lauderdale were mostly white. 
Now, about what time of day did this occur, Deputy Middlebrooks 
Approximately three o’clock in the after —  p.m.
All right. Now, did you —  you said, I believe, that you 
intermingled with this crowd?
I did.
And did you hear any remarks made by any of the white crowd tha 
was over there on the Post Office Drug Store corner?
Very much so.
And what were these remarks?
Said, "It is time for us to take over."
"Time for us to take over"?
Right



12

|l Q And did you hear any renarks which were made by the crowd of 
Negroes which were located in front of the Federal Building?

A A lot of noise, a very angry crowd, like they were disturbed.
Q Were they singing any songs?
A I don’t recall them singing a song, but it was a lot of hollerijitc 

and carrying on.
Q All right. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, on the fourth page, would 

you please tell us what this shows?
A The first —  first picture shows a crowd gathered by the

filling station, and four of the marchers coming to the Court 
House. The second picture --

THE COURT: I can look at those; you can ask him
just generally what they show, but if you are going to offer them 
in evidence, I can see what they show.

HR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir; all right.
Q On this bottom picture, it shows an automobile driving up with 

smoke coming out of the back of it?
A Right.
Q Is there anything —  do you know who was driving this automobile
A I do.
Q And who was this person?
A Elmer Cook.
Q Elmer Cook?

| A Right.
Q Is he the person that was subsequently arrested and charged with



13

the fatal beating of Reverend Reeb?
A He is.
Q And what did they do, if anything, when they came up there to 

the Dallas County Court House?
A What did they do to the car?
Q (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
A This car pulled up on the corner and stopped, and Stanley

Hoggle, which you see in the rear here, raised the hood on the 
automobile and poured some Casite in the carburetor, causing a 
—  a big smoke screen.

Q All right. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, was it at any time —  I 
withdraw that. Did the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department move 
any of these white crowds and Negro crowds away from the Dallas 
County Court House?

A They did.
Q And did you assist in this?
A I did not.
Q Do you know the deputy who did this?
A I do.
Q And what was his name?
A Captain George Stoves and Chief Deputy Crocker.
Q And were they assisted by any City policemen?
A I do not recall.
Q All right, and on this particular day, were —  were there any 

fights that broke out among the crowd?



14

A I heard of it; I did not see it.
Q You did not see it?
A I did not see it; I was trying to protect myself, because I had 

several remarks made towards me.
Q All right, and did the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department —  dijd 

they make a ring around these Lutherans who had marched up to 
the Dallas County Court House?

A I don’t recall for sure; I was on one —  one end, and I didn’t 
—  never did get down on the other end because of the crowd.

Q Un, huh; were they standing in between the Lutherans who were 
gathered at the front of the Court House and the crowds which 
were located on the other side of the street?

A They was; they was.
Q Uh, huh; now, Mr. Middlebrooks, have you been stationed at the 

Dallas County Court House during the months of July —  February 
and March of this year?

A Yes, sir.
Q And have you observed the demonstrations which have taken place 

in and around the Dallas County Court House?
A I have.
Q Y/ere there any times when the sidewalk in front of the 

Lauderdale entrance was completely blocked?
A Several times.
Q All right, and did you observe this blockage?

A I did.



15

Q All right, and how would the demonstrators block the sidewalks?
A Line up, on numerous occasions they would march up and line up 

in a single line, and repeat it, completely single line, be fou 
and five deep —

Q All right.
A —  which caused complete blockage.
Q Did they lock arms?
A They did.
Q Uh, huh; they would all stand with their arms together?
A They did.
Q How, did —  did some of these demonstrations take place on days 

when the Board of Registrars was not in session?
A They did.
Q Uh, huh; and did some of these demonstrations take place when 

the voter registration applicant book was not open?
MR. GRAY; Your honor, we are going to object; all

these questions are leading questions.
THE COURT: I sustain it.

Q Do you know as to whether or not the voter application book was 
open on the date of, say, February 16, 1965?

MR. DOAR: Your honor, I object to this on the grour
it is repetitious; it has already been established.

THE COURT: Well, I will let him ask this witness
that; you can answer it; overrule.
A I donTt recall that particular date, because right off hand —



16

Q

A
Q
A
Q
A

Q
A

but I do know the book had been open several days.
All right. Now, have you attended any of the meetings which 
held at the —  at Brown’s Chapel in Selma, Alabama, in your 
official capacity with the Sheriff’s Department?
I onl̂ r attended one or two of the ward meetings.
Ward meetings?

wer<

Yes.
And were they held in Selma, in Dallas County, Alabama? 
They were.
And did you hear any speakers at these ward meetings?
Yes.

Q All right, and what was the substance of these speeches, if 
anything?

A To get out and go door to door and get the people out to come 
down and register.

Q Was anything said about juveniles?
A Bring all the kids.
Q To bring all kids?
A Bring all the kids.
Q All right. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, have you ever —  while you 

were stationed at the Dallas County Court House, have you ever 
threatened, abused, or intimidated any hegro citizens who was 
attempting to register to vote?

MR. HALL: I object, your honor.
THE COURT: Sustain it to that question



Mr. Middlebrooks, have you ever hit or struck any Negro citizen! 
at the Dallas County Court House?
I have not,
Have you ever seen any member of the Dallas County Sheriff's 
Department or the Dallas County Sheriff’s Posse or a State 
Trooper strike or hit any Negro in the area of the Dallas County 
Court House?
I have not in the area of the Court House.
Uh, huh. Now, Deputy Middlebrooks, I call your attention to 
Sunday/, March 7, 1965, and I ask you as to whether or not you 
were present on this particular day?
I was.
And where were you stationed?
March 7?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Across the River Bridge, highway SO east.
All right, and were you on a —  on horseback on this particular 
day?
I wa s.
And were you present when the Negro marchers came across the 
Edmund Pettus Bridge?
I was.
And did you observe them when they stopped in front of Major



Q And did you hear Major Cloud say anything to these marchers?
A I did.
Q And what did he say, if anything?
A He asked the marchers to halt, he told them due to circumstance 

of their safety and the safety of the highway and other people 
the highway that he could not permit this march to continue.

Q All right, and did he order them to disperse?
A He did.

MR. DOAR: I object to this line of questioning on
the ground it is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overrule.
Q You say he did order them to disperse?
A He did.
Q Did he give them any time limit in which to disperse?
A He -- I don’t remember the exact time: he did tell them they

had so long, but I don’t recall the amount of time he gave them 
Q In your best estimate, how long was it after Major Cloud read t 

order was it before the State Troopers moved into the marchers? 
A I didn’t —
Q How long, time wise, was it after Major Cloud gave his order wa 

it before the State Troopers moved into the marchers?
A It was after Major Cloud give the order.
Q After it, how long was it?
A Oh, I would say a matter of four or five minutes.
Q Now, you said that you were on a horse?

I S



19

A I was.
Q All right, and at what point did you proceed into the marchers?
A After Major Cloud had asked them to leave, they would not leave,

they were all over the bridges, all over every place, and the 
crowds began to try to push in behind the officers and all, and 
it become necessary to move the crowd.

Q And was this after the tear gas was thrown?
A It was.
Q All right, and what did you do, if anything?
A We rode up on the bridge: the majority of the crowd was standing 

on the foot of the bridge; we rode up there and told than to 
move on back to the churches.

Q All right.
A And we rode along beside of them, I rode along beside of them 

all the way over the bridge, and when they made a right turn on 
Water Avenue, we turned back and went back over the bridge, 
there were some more coming out from under the bridge.

Q All right. Now, at any time during this period when you were 
riding over the bridge, did you see any member of the Dallas 
County 5heriffTs Department or Posse abuse or intimidate any 
Negro citizen?

IIR. AMAKER: Objection.
MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.



20

Q Did you see any Negro —  I withdraw that question. Did you see 
any member of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department or Posse 
strike any Negro?

A I did not.
Q At this time? Did you, Deputy Middlebrooks, strike or hit any 

Negro citizen during this period of time?
A I did not.
Q Now, after you came —  said you came to the foot of the Edmund 

Fettus Bridge, did you then go back across the River Bridge?
A We did.
Q All right, and what did you do when you went back across the 

Pettus Bridge, if anything?
A We were ordered to come back highway SO west to Washington 

Street and assist a crowd of people down there, assist the 
police in moving the crowd out at Washington Street.

Q Was there a large group or crowd located at the intersection of 
Washington and Water Avenue --

A Very much.
Q —  when you arrived?
A Large crowd.
Q And how many people, in your best estimate, was in this crowd?
A I would say eight hundred.
Q Eight hundred?
A Eight hundred.
Q And did you move into this crowd and disperse them?



A As we came over the bridge and made a right turn on Water 
Avenue and the crowd saw the horses coming, they moved out 
toward the churches.

Q All right, and did you follow them?
A We did.
Q On down to Brown’s Chapel?
A We did.
Q And during this period that you followed them down to the Browr’ 

Chapel, did you see any member of the Dallas County Sheriff’s 
Department strike or hit any Negro citizen?

A I did not.
Q Did you see any member of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department 

pushing the Negroes along?
A I did not.
■Q Did you strike or hit any Negro citizen?
A I did not.
q Now, when you arrived at Brown’s Chapel, was there a large group 

of people congregated in the street outside of the church?

A There was.
Q All right, and at this time did the Mounted Posse move into 

this crowd?
A They rode towards the crowd, because the bricks and bottles 

flying every place.
All right, and during this period of time that you -were at 
Brown’s Chapel, were there any objects or —  thrown at you or

Q



22

any members of the Dallas County SheriffTs Department?
They come over the building, there were rocks and bottles come 
over the tops of the Washington Carver Homes down there —
All right.
-- where the horses were standing.
Did you get hit by any of these rocks or objects?
I did not.
Did any member of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department be 
injured at this time?
Right.
Now, did you chase any small children in the vicinity of the 
Dallas County —  in the vicinity of Brown’s Chapel?
No; they were in the crowds there, as we rode the horses up, 
they ran off, but we did not chase them.
You didn’t; did you chase any small children with bullwhips?
We didn’t even have a bullwhip.
All right, did you have a bullwhip on your saddle?
No.
All right, do you know if any member of the Mounted Posse had 
a bullwhip?
No.
All right, were there any ropes on the saddles?
Yes.
All right, were these ropes —  were they rolled up, or were the



23

let out?
A They were rolled up when we rode in, and they remained rolled ijij: 
Q And this was on the -- on the saddle?
A On the saddle.
Q All right. Nov;, were you present on the march which took plac^ 

on Tuesday, March 9, 1965?
A I was.
Q And where were you stationed on this particular day?
A At Sylvan and Selma Avenue, making photographs at the time the 

march started.
Q All right, and did you stay at the corner of Selma and Sylvan?
A I did not; I proceeded up and down the march making pictures —
Q All right.
A —  from the front to the rear.
Q All right, did you march along with the marchers?
A I did.
Q All right, and were you present at the Edmund Pettus Bridge?
A I was.
Q Did you hear United States Marshal Stanley Fountain read an 

order to the marchers?
MR. GREENBERG: Objection; repetitious.
THE COURT: Well, I take it they have their right to

present a version of what happened on all of these occasions, even 
though it is repetitious —

MR. GREENBERG: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply



24

THE COURT: —  but if there is no controversy
concerning it, let’s skip it —

MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: -- and I don’t understand that there is

any concerning this particular point.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.

Q Now, Mr. Middlebrooks, you stated that you marched along the
route, I believe, from Brown’s Chapel to the Edmund Pettus Brie, 
is that correct?

A It is.
Q And did you observe any crowds of white people gathered along 

this route?
A Very much.
Q And where were they?
A They were on the streets entering into Water Street, which is 

Lawrence, and Washington, I don’t recall the other street name,, 
and the U. and W. Manufacturing Company is on the route of the 
march, which is a manufacturing building, the people left their 
jobs, come out in the doors.

Q All right. Now, did you hear any of these people who you have 
just testified to make any remarks toward the marchers?

A I did.
Q And what were these remarks?
A They said, "Looks like it is time for us to get out there and 

stop it."



25

Q Nov/, I’ll ask you, Mr. Middlebrooks, as to whether or not you 
were close to Dr. Martin Luther Kins during the march?

A I wa s.
Q And was he assisted in any way during this march?
A Most of the way.
Q And how was he assisted?
A He had two gentlemen walking along holding him up most of the 

time.
Q Holding him up?
A Yeah.
Q And did you talk to Dr. King?
A I did not.
Q Did you have occasion to come face to face with him at any time?
A On occasion I was close enough to observe that he was being 

assisted.
Q And that is all you observed?
A That’s all I observed.
Q All right. Now, on this Tuesday, do you know as to whether or 

not the City Police blocked off all traffic at Alabama Avenue cn 
Broad Street?

A They did.
Q And was any traffic allowed to go this last block down Broad 

Street?
A I am not very clear on your question now?
Q All right, they blocked off the —  the intersection at Alabama



26

and Broad; is that correct; the City Police?
A Which day is this now?
Q On Tuesday?
A On Tuesday?
Q (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
A They did.
Q All right.
A They —
Q And was there a large crowd of people gathered at the corner

of Pilcher-McBryde’s and Tillman’s Drug Store, which is located 
at the intersection of Alabama Avenue and Broad Street?

A There was.
Q All right, and was there any traffic congestion in and around 

the downtown area of Selma on this particular day?
A For three or four blocks all traffic entering into Water Street 

was blocked completely off; from the River Bridge all entrance 
down to the L. and N. Depot was blocked off.

Q That was blocked off?
A Blocked off.
Q Now, going back just a minute to Brown’s Chapel, on the day, 

Sunday, March 7, 1965, xvere there any possemen injured on this 
particular day?

A I don’t recall any of the Posse members being injured.
Q Were any deputies injured?
A There was.



27

Q And how many deputies were injured on this occasion?
A One.
Q One?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And do you know the nature and extent of the injury that he 

received?
MR. NABRIT: Objection, unless personal knowledge.
THE COURT: Overrule: he asked him if he knew; if

he knows, he can testify to it.
A I know he was struck on the cheek and above the eye on the 

forehead.
Q Do you know what struck him?
A I was not present when he was struck.
Q All right. Now —

MR. GREENBERG: We move to strike that last response.
THE COURT: It will be excluded: motion granted.

Q Still on Sunday, March 7, 1965, on your —  when you were coming 
back to Brown’s Chapel, did you go by the residence where Mrs. 
Thacker lives?

A I did.
Q How near is this to Brown’s Chapel?
A I believe it is about a block and a half.
Q All right, and did you go to Mrs. Thacker’s residence?
A We did.
Q And what did you observe there if anything?



28

A As we were riding down Selma Avenue, we saw Mrs. Thacker 
standing in front of her house with a brush, which looked 
something like a yard broom, some people call it, or limb or 
something, and ten or fifteen Negro boys standing over by the 
corner, and we turned and rode off down there, because we knew 
there was fixing to be trouble.

Q Was there any trouble when you arrived?
A They were making a lot of backtalk toward one another.

MR. NABRIT: Objection; move to strike.
Q Were any objects —

THE COURT; As to what he knew before he went down
there will be stricken; it wasn’t responsive.
Q All right, did you see any objects thrown?
A I did not.
Q You did not?
A I did not.
Q Now —

MR. P. H. PITTS: Mark this for identification.
THE CLERK: Defendant —
THE COURT: Have you gentlemen seen it?
THE CLERK: Defendant Clark’s Exhibit number 13 for

identification.
Q How, Deputy Middlebrooks, I show you Defendant Clark’s Exhibit 

number 13, and ask you as to whether or not you took that 
picture, and if so, on what date?



29

Q
A

Q
A

Q

A

Q
A

I did take the picture.
What date?
March 1, 1965.
And what does this picture depict?
This picture is the photograph of a Nazi member which arrived 
on Lauderdale Street in the morning around ten o’clock.
And does this picture actually portray the scene at the time 
that you took this picture?
It does.
Is it a true representation?
It is true.

MR. P. H. PITTS: I offer Defendants’ Exhibit 13
into evidence.

THE COURT: It will be admitted.
Q Did you go up to this man and talk to him, Deputy Middlebrooks'1 
A I did not: I walked up close enough to make the photograph.

Q

A
Q

The City Police —
Do you know as to whether or not any member of the Dallas Count 
Sheriff’s Department went up to him?
I do not.
Now, just one more question; on these days where —  around the 
Dallas County Court House that you have testified to on these 
demonstrations, were there any United States Marshals or F.B.i, 
Agents present?
There were F.B.I. Agents present.

y



30

Q Do you know as to whether or not any United States Marshals were 
present?

A On one or two occasions there was Deputy Marshals in and out.
Q All right, so they were both present in —  during this period cf

time -- 
A Yes, sir.
Q —  at one tine or the other?
A That’s right: that’s right.

MR. P. H. PITTS: No further questions. Wait just
a minute, excuse me. We would like to offer Defendants’ Exhibits 
10, 11, and 12 into evidence.

THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. HALL: No.
MR. MERIT: No objection.
THE COURT: It will be admitted. Further direct?
MR. P. H. PITTS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Cross, for the Plaintiffs.

CROSS EXAMINATION:
BY MR. HALL:
Q Mr. Middlebrooks, I believe you say that your principal duty’s 

as a photographer; is that correct?
A That’s right.
Q Have you had training as a photographer, any specialised 

training?
A No



31

Q Do you develop your own pictures?
A I do not.I
Q Who develops your pictures?
A I send them to Carter Drug Company.|
Q Carter’s Drug Store; do you know if they retouch them or 

alter them or —
A I do not.
Q You don’t know?

| A I don’t know.
j Q They might be altered; is that right?

A Huh?
Q They could be altered; is that correct; or retouched?
A Well, I send the film off, and they come back to me a picture.
Q So you can’t testify as to whether or not those are true

representative pictures of the things that they portray?
MR. P. H. PITTS: I object to that; the pictures

speak for themselve3 •
THE COURT: Well —

MR. P. H. PITTS: He already testified they were a
true representation.

THE COURT: You need not argue.
MR. HALL: We don’t argue it, your honor.
THE COURT: Is there any contention that they have

been altered?
MR. HALL: We don’t know, sir; we just observe that



32

they looked like they might have been retouched.
TIE COURT: All right, you can question him; you can

question him on it, then —f
MR. HALL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: —  if it is —  if it is a contention —
MR. HALL: All right, sir.
THE COURT: —  or question in your mind about it.
MR. HALL: We —
THE COURT: You can go into it, if you wish.
MR. HALL: Excuse me, please, sir.

Q Mr. Middlebrooks, can you be sure that Carter’s Drug Store
printed your whole negative, or left some portion of it off?

A I am not sure.

Q You are not sure?
A We have the negatives in the State laboratory.

Q I see, sir.
A As of present.

Q I see.
A I get the pictures back, and the negatives are brought oo the

laboratory in Montgomery.

Q But you don’t know whether they printed your whole negative or

not, do you?
A You mean develop the whole negative?

Q Yes, sir?
A I looked at the negatives when they returned.



33

Then —
The negatives of these films that we are producing are available 
Yes, sir; but we wanted to know if you knew?
I wasn’t there.
You don’t know?
I made the pictures, I sent them in to be printed, and they 
come back to me printed.
So in answer to that question would it be yes or no?
It would be no.
I believe you testified with reference to a march of seme 
persons on —  or a demonstration of some persons on Saturday, 
March 6?
I did.
And as I recall, you referred to them as Lutherans; do you mean 
that there was a march of Lutherans in Selma on that date?
They said they was.
All of them?
Not all of them.
Isn’t it a fact that there were some Jewish people in that 
march, too?
I didn’t talk to the people; I heard —  overheard one or two 
guys ask them what their religion was, and they made the 
statement of a Lutheran.
I see.
And I was maneuvering making pictures.



34

Q
A
Q
A

Q
AA

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q

/\
ii.

Q

How many persons were in this line?
I would say thirty or thirty-five.
Could it have been seventy?
There were some bystanders followed us coming up the side 
streets, but actually the line in front of the Court House, 
after they assembled and got in a single line, I would say 
thirty to thirty-five.
Very small demonstration?
Very small.
They were all white persons; is that correct?
Correct.
Now, were there many of the Sheriff’s deputies or possemen theif 
The same number that we use all the time.
In your best judgment, what is that number?
Sixty to seventy men.
Sixty to seventy men; now, were any of these persons whom you 
referred to as Lutherans arrested?
Hot that I recall.
Were they required to disperse?
They were.
They were required to —  did they —  did they read a statement
before they left?
I was —  was not directly in front of them; I don’t know what 
the conversation was, I was making pictures, maneuvering around. 
Did you hear the leader —  did you see him read from a prepared



35

statement?
A Yes, I did.

Q He stood there on the Court House steps and read from a prepared 
statement, did he not?

A Not on the steps: on the sidewalk.
Q On the sidewalk in front of the Court House?
A Right.
Q Did they also pass out leaflets?
A They had some leaflets scattered all over the street, but

passing them out, I didn’t see them passing them out; I saw them 
on the streets.

Q They had some?
A One did have it.
Q Yes, sir; and they did pass —  they did put them out there on 

the -- on the street available?
A They were all over the sidewalk.
Q And the Sheriff did not arrest these persons at all?
A The Sheriff was not present.
Q The Chief Deputy or none of the Sheriff’s deputies or possemen 

arrested any of these persons, did they?
A Hot that I recall.
Q They marched, did they —  when they left the Court House, where 

did they go?
A They went down Church Street back to the Court House —  to the 

chapel where they had come from.



36

Q What place was that?
A I believe it is known as Knox School or Academy, or something.
Q Approximately how far is that from the Court House?
A I would say four or five blocks.
Q Did they go in a procession?
A They did not.
Q Or march?
A They were two and three in a bunch.
Q But they were not arrested, were they?
A Not that I recall.
Q On that return. Now, directing your attention to February 16 

MR. HALL: May we have Exhibit number 10, please?
Q I ask you to examine Defendants’ Exhibit 10, Defendant Clark

Exhibit 10, and ask you to open it and find the picture of som^ 
incident involving C. T. Vivian?

A (Presented)
Q Do you know the Reverend Vivian on sight?
A On sight, yes.
Q Were you present at the time that picture was made?
A I made it.
Q Were you present throughout the incident there involving the 

Reverend Vivian and Sheriff Clark?
A Not throughout.
Q When did you leave?
A I went to have lunch, and we was called and told to come back



37

to the Court House.
Q You left in the middle or before —  now, when did you arrive.

when did you take this picture, what was it occurring then?
A He was standing on the steps talking to Sheriff Clark.
Q And how soon after you took that picture did you leave?
A I was make —  I took this picture, then I turned around to make 

other pictures of the crowds around the area.
Q You were not looking at the Reverend Vivian?
A Only when I made this picture.
Q Did you ever turn back around at that —  at that time after you 

made that picture?
A I did.
Q Did you see the Reverend Vivian on the ground?
A No.
Q Did you see him with his mouth bloody?
A I did.
Q When did you see that?
A As they were carrying him to the car to go to jail.
Q Did you see him when he was hit in the mouth?
A I did not.
Q You don’t know who hit him?
A I do not.
q Did you hear the Sheriff say that he hit him and maybe broke 

his finger?
A He said it.



3S

Q He said it, didn’t he?
A That’s right.
Q Now, you know of this occasion where the Sheriff said he hit

him, so you know Sheriff Clark has hit one Negro citizen?
A He said it.
Q He said it* and did he have that finger taped up or worked on 

because he —  it was injured?
A It was bandaged.
Q Now, was the Reverend Vivian —  did you ever see the Reverend 

Vivian on the ground?
A I didn’t; I wasn’t in the area at that time.
Q Did you take any picture of the Reverend Vivian after he was h: 
A I have got one or two pictures of Vivian, but I don’t recall 

where they are, right off hand, I believe they are at —
Q You don’t have those with you?
A Not right now.
Q They are not a part of this Exhibit?
A No.
Q Now, this Exhibit was prepared by you when?
A Last night.
Q For the purpose of coming into court supporting the defendant, 

Clark?
A Right.
Q Is that correct?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)



You —  this is a part of the Vivian incident, but this is the 
only picture you have with reference to that: is that correct? 
There was another one down there.
These two pictures. Was the Reverend Vivian arrested?
He was.
On that occasion. What was he trying to do when he came down 
to the Alabama entrance to the Court House; v/hat did he ask th4 
Sheriff to let him do?
He wanted to go in; I just heard the discussion, I can’t recall 
the exact words.
You were right there; give us that?
lie was talking and shaking his finger in Sheriff Clark’s face. 
V/hat did he want to do?
I presume he wanted to get in the Court House.
V/hat did he say he wanted to do?
I don’t recall.
You don’t recall v/hat he said?
I don’t recall.
Was it raining on this occasion?
Not this day.
Are you certain about the rain?
That’s right.
Isn’t it a fact that the Reverend Vivian was trying to go inside
the Court House?
He was; he was trying to get in the Court House



40

Q

A
n

A

A
Q
AA

Q

isn’t it a fact that Sheriff Clark would not allow he nor the 
persons with him to go in the Court House?
That’s right.
Isn’t that the reason for the whole incident?
I -- there was arguments there when I arrived from lunch; I 
was called, I was eating lunch, and I was called back, and whe
I arrived with my camera, Vivian was standing there shaking 
his finger in Sheriff Clark’s face, and I saw the Sheriff turn 
around and turn his back on Vivian. Well, I walked on off to 
make other photographs, and I saw Vivian the ne:ct time going 
to the car. I don’t even recall what deputy was with him, but 
I did see him going back to the car.
Isn’t it a fact that the defendant, Clark, hit —  hit the
Reverend Vivian and that another deputy also hit him at this 
time, a Deputy Sheriff?
I didn’t see the licks; I was making pictures.
Don’t you know this to be true?
There was a little blood on his lips; I didn’t see him hit. 
Don’t you know that this is the truth, that another deputy 
besides the defendant, Clark, also hit the Reverend —

MR. KOHN: We object to that —
MR. WILKINSON: Object to arguing with the witness.
MR. KOHN: —  he said he didn’t see it.

I sustain it to that question: you can 
line, but do not argue with him.

THE COURT:
interrogate him along that



MR. HALL; All right, sir.
Q. Mr. Middlebrooks, on the occasion, directing your attention 

again to March 6, 1965, when these white persons were demon­
strating there in front of the Court House in Dallas County, I 
believe you said on direct that there were in your estimation 
fifteen hundred persons in the vicinity —

A That’s right.
Q -- is that correct?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And I believe you also testified that you heard some remarks 

to the effect that it was, "Time for us to take over"?
A That’s right.
Q And what -- what was meant by, "Us"?
A Well, it was a bunch of guys standing around, and this one guy 

I was making photographs and trying to take —  I got shoved 
off the bumper, I was standing on the bumper of one vehicle, 
and the crowd was pushing and trying to get up in there, and I 
was shoved off the —  the bumper and trying to protect my 
equipment, and I didn’t see who made the statement, but it was 
made by someone in the crowd, "It is time for us to take over, 
and I presume he was talking about the gang there, the crowd o 
people.

Q Were any of these persons arrested, those ’who wanted to take 
over?

A I don’t recall; I heard someone said that one of those was



arrested.

42

Q One was arrested?
A I donTt recall, myself.
Q Directing your attention to the automobile that smoked, I beli 

you said driven by Elmer Cook?
A Right.
Q Can you find that Exhibit, please?
A There it is, bottom picture.
Q Bottom picture?
A Uh, huh.
Q Now, who was in that car beside Elmer Cook?
A Stanley Hoggle.
Q Anyone else?
A Not that I know of.
Q And these are two of the persons who are alleged to have 

assaulted the Reverend Reeb?
A That is correct.
Q And caused his death?
A That is correct.
Q On this occasion they created, where was the car parked when 

this smoking —
A On the corner of Lauderdale and Alabama, on the Court House 

corner.
Q Was it --- did it —  was it in the middle of the street, did it 

create a traffic hazard, did it stop?



43

±t was not in the middle of the street; it created a traffic 
hazard because of all the smoke; you canTt drive through smoke 
to see where you are going, and this is a traffic hazard.
Were these persons arrested?
Not that I know of.
They are both white persons, are they not?
The}?- are.
But they were not arrested for —
They were ordered to move; that is all I recall.
They were just ordered to move, but not arrested?
As far as I know, not —
And one or two or three days later they assaulted the Reverend 
Reeb?
Well, the deputies had their hands pretty full, and Mr. Baker 
walked up to them and told them they would have to move the car 
out of the way.
Now, I believe you testified that on several occasions you have 
observed the entrance on the Lauderdale side of the Court House 
completely blocked; is that correct?
That’s right.
How many entrances are there to the Dallas County Court House? 
There is one on Lauderdale Street, there is one on Alabama, and 
there is one in the alley.
Is this an alley; there is some question?
Well, it is a parking area.



Q Is that —
A It don’t go through; it comes to a dead end.
Q Are —  you recall in January when the voter registration effort 

first began among Negroes in Dallas County?
A I do.
Q And they objected to having to stand in the rear alley?
A Yeah.
Q And there was some contention, there is some contention, that 

that is a regular and proper entrance to the Court House; is 
it an alley entrance or is it a regular entrance?

A It is a double door just like all the other doors; the employees 
go in and out.

Q So although the Lauderdale entrance may have been blocked, you 
had two regular entrances open?

A There is three entrances to the Court House.
Q Yes, sir; so that persons could get in to transact business. 

Deputy Iiiddlebrooks, have you —  do you use as a part of your 
regular equipment a cattle prod?

A We do.
Q Do you?
A I -- I don’t, but I don’t have no call for it.
Q Have you ever observed any deputy or member of the Sheriff’s

Posse or the Sheriff, himself, use one of these cattle prods?
On any demonstrator?

A I have seen them with them. As to actuall}'- making contact, I

44



45

can't say that I have, because I am a photographer, and I 
guarantee you, out in the crowd like this, you have got to kind 
of watch what you are doing, making pictures, you don’t have 
time to observe everything.

Q Have you ever made a picture of any deputy, posseman, or the 
Sheriff, himself, in the act of using a cattle prod on any 
demonstrator?

A Not that I know of; I have made pictures, and it is possible 
that it is being used.

Q Incidentally, going back to March 6, 1965, isn’t it a fact that 
that particular group called themselves —  who demonstrated at 
the Court House, that is, the white, all white group; didn’t 
they call themselves white -- concerned white citizens of 
Alabama?

A They had a —  pamphlets along with them; now, what was on all 
these pamphlets I don’t know; I made photographs of a few of 
them, I don’t recall what were on the pamphlets, and I did not 
talk with any of them; I mean, I don’t know what they called 
themselves.

Q We ask you to examine, sir, Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 4, and turn the 
page and look at first picture, it is already in evidence. Oh, 
I am sorry, this —  I may have not identified this properly. 
This is Intervenor’s Exhibit 4; tell us about the first picture 
there?

A A picture of people marching off of the Pettus Bridge and horses



46

going along beside them, behind them.
Q Are there men on the horses?
A Sure.
Q Who are the men on the horses?
A I am looking at the backs; I can’t identify the men from the 

back.
Q You can’t identify those. Gan you identify the scene?
A Edmund Pettus Bridge and Broad.
Q Can you tell us who these people are; do you know from looking 

at that picture?
A These are some of the marchers going down here on the side of 

the bridge.
Q Is that March 7 marchers?
A March 7 marchers.
Q I see, sir; and who are the men on the horses?
A Mounted Posse.
Q That is part of the Mounted Posse?
A Part of the Mounted Posse.
Q You don’t see yourself there, do you?
A No, I do not.
Q Will you turn to the next picture, please, sir; now, is that 

the same scene?
A It is part of the same march.
Q And the mounted horse -- the men on horses are there, and they



47

are Dallas County possemen?
A Right.
Q Turn the next scene; will you tell us what you see on that 

picture?
A Horses up and down the street, one behind, and one there with 

it looks like a billy stick up behind somebodyTs neck.
Q You mean one of the possemen have a billy stick up behind 

somebody’s neck?
A It is up behind somebody’s neck according to the picture.
Q Will you turn to the next picture; will you tell us what that 

indicates?
A Some of the marchers straggling along, and the horses all around
Q Are any of the horses there on the sidewalk with the marchers?
A It is one of them.
Q Up on the sidewalk?
A It is.
Q Not in the street?
A It is.
Q Do you see any of the marchers in the street?
A Not on this particular picture.
Q. Well, this is —  do you see any of the marchers at all on the 

street there?
A No.
Q They are all on the sidewalk?

Right.A



43

Q And some of the horses are on the sidewalk with them?
A Right.
Q That’s all; thank you, sir. Now, we ask you, sir, to look

at Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 8, this is not in evidence.
MR. HALL: (to Mr. P. H. Pitts) You want to see it?

Q Tell us if you can identify it; tell us what it is?
A It is horses and people.
Q Can you identify the people on the horses?
A Two of them.
Q Can you tell us their names?
A E. P. Wallis.
Q E. P. Wallis?
A In the rear.
Q That is on the rear horse?
A And John Cross.
Q John Cross on the second to the rear?
A I —  I can’t -- I don’t know who these are, because they are 

both in a line right there, and I don’t recall the horses.
Q Can you identify the place for us and the time?
A It appears to me that it is by the Chick-N-Treat, which is

across the river along the highway, it appears to me, I don’t 
recall these trees.

Q That is across the river on highway 50, across the river?
A Highway 80, I would say, I didn’t —  I don’t recall these trees,

but I think it is around the Chick-U-Treat area.



Q And it is scene taken on March 7, 1965?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)

MR. HALL: This —  excuse me, your honor; this has
not been introduced; I am going to introduce it.

THE COURT: Any objection to number 6, gentlemen?
HR. SMITH: No objection.
MR. KOHN: (Shook head to indicate negative reply)
MR. F. H. FITTS: No.
THE COURT: Plaintiffs1 & will be admitted in evidenc
MR. HALL: Was there any objection to that?
THE COURT: It is admitted in evidence.

Q Mr. Middlebrooks, these persons that you identified, are
members —  are they regular possemen or are they Deputy Sheriffs 
of Dallas County?

A They are Posse members.
Q Posse members?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q Now, are they on the Sheriff’s regular pay roll?
A They are not.
Q They are not; what is their function, what is their duty?
A E. P. Wallis is a business man; he shows horses all over the

country. John Cross is a night detective, I would say, or night 
detective -- I don’t know how to phrase it, he is a security 
man across the river in Selma, he checks the buildings and all 
at night, security business over there across the river.

49



50

0 And they are not officially a part of the Dallas County Sherif. 
office; is that correct?

A They are not on the pay roll.
Q Not on the pay roll?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q Do the —  do these two men hold any rank at all in the Posse?
A John Cross is kindly in charge of the Posse.
Q What is his title?
A His title?
Q Yes, sir?
A Well, he is just in charge; I believe they call him a captain.
Q Captain?
A But there is no —  nothing issued on it. I believe the list o: 

Posse members you have, it states on there as Captain John 
Cross, but he don’t wear any rank, there is no rank, it is 
just the boys call him captain of the bunch.

Q Nov/, Mr. Middlebrooks, we show you Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3,
which is in evidence, and ask you to examine it, please, sir, 
and tell us if you can what it is?

A It is a bunch of horses.
Q Men on the horses?
A One State Trooper, one woman lying on the ground.
Q Do you know the woman on the ground?
A I do not.
Q Do you know any of the men on the horses?



51

A I do.
Q Who are they,* will you identify them for us?
A This is Captain Stoves, G. A. Stoves, of the Sheriffs

Department.
Q Of the Sheriff’s Department?
A Right. This is E. P. Wallis.
Q Captain Stoves, of the Sheriff’s Department, is the —  is the 

horseman furthest to the left -- 
A To the left.
q __ as you look at the picture?
A To the left.
Q The next horseman is who?
A Is Wallis, a. P. Wallis#
Q Is he a deputy or is he a —  a posseman?
A He is a posseman.
Q Now, Captain Stoves is a deputy?
A He is a deputy.
Q But he is mounted at this time?
A He is mounted.
Q All right, sir; go ahead?
A This is E. P. 'Wallis; now, I don’t recall this gentleman here, 

I don’t even know his horse, but I can remember the one on the 

spotted horse.
Q That is the fourth from the left side of the picture?
A Harold Hendrix, he is in the farm implement business.



52

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q

And he is a posseman?
He is a posseman, and the other guy on the horse is Wyatt. 
Is he a regular police officer or posseman?
He is posseman.
He has other businesses?
Right.
Do you —  can you identify the State Troopers, sir?
I cannot.
Do -- are you -- do you know Amelia Boynton?
I do.
Will you examine that picture and tell us if you can determine 
whether or not that is Mrs. Boynton on the ground?
Not from this picture.
Were you anywhere in the vicinity of —  do you know that she 
on the ground at one time on March 7, 1965?
I do not.

was

During this march. You did not see her?
I did not see her, even in the march.
And this is a picture taken at the scene of the incident 
involving an attempted march from Selma to Montgomery on March 
7, 1965; is that correct?
It is.
These people were there. 1 have just one —

MR. HALL: Pardon me, your honor, lost these

Exhibits.



53

Q Mr. Middlebrooks, were you in Marion?
A I was not.
Q On the night of February 18?
A I was not.
Q Do you know if Sheriff Clark was there?
A I do not.

THE COURT: He wasn’t there.
Q Directing your attention to March 7, 1965, do you -- I believe 

you testified on direct that you did follow the —  the marchers 
back across the bridge?

A I did.
■

Q And you, yourself, was on horseback?
A I wa s.
Q When you came down the Pettus Bridge into Water Street on Broad 

did you see Commissioner Baker there?
A I don’t recall.
Q Did you see members of the City Police Department down there 

directing traffic?
A I did.
Q They were there; they were stationed right there at that 

intersection?
A There were some City Police there.
Q And as a matter of fact, they were directing traffic and

controlling traffic all over the City of Selma, were they not, 
on that day?



54

A That day.
Q Did you see the defendant, Clark, at that corner at that time?
A Not at the particular time; I was there, but we were back and

forward across the bridge.
Q Isn’t it a fact that Commissioner Baker suggested to the 

Sheriff’s Department that the City Police would handle the 
traffic problem and see to it that the marchers got back to the 
church?

A I don’t know anything about that.
Q You didn’t hear that?
A I did not hear that.
Q Ordinarily, do you patrol streets of the City of Selma and take 

care of traffic problems?
A When we are asked.
Q Were you asked on this occasion?
A Hot that I know of.
Q Mr. Middlebrooks, we ask you to look at this book marked

Intervenor’s Exhibit 1, and ask you to turn the pages and look 
at the picture A-30S and tell us, if you can, what is depicted 
in that scene?

A I see automobiles, people, and some horses.
Q There are men on the horses?
A There are.
Q Can you tell from looking at the picture whether those are 

possemen, Dallas County possemen or deputies?



55

A I can tell from the color of some of the horses, not from the 
nien’s facer I canTt see them that close.

Q But from some way or looking at the horses you can identify them 
as members of the Posse or as deputies of Dallas County Sheriff 
office?

A I can.
Q Can you tell us the names of any of those that you can see?
A Only one that I —  two of them that I recognize their horse,

I just happen to knox-/ their horse.
Q You know those horses, and who do those horses belong to?
A One of them belongs to E. F. Wallis, which is this one.
Q That a spotted horse?
A Well, he’s got a blaze face there and white legs.
Q Yes.
A And the spotted horse over on the side happens to belong to 

Harold Hendrix.
Q Now, can you tell us —  can you identify the locale?
A I believe to be behind —  to the side or behind the Kayo Service

Station.
Q And that is adjacent to highway SO?
A It is.
Q Across the River Bridge?
A It is.
Q On the Montgomery side?
A On the Montgomery side.



Q Yes, sir. Now, we ask you to turn the page here, sir, and look 
at picture A-209; observe the mounted horsemen and tell us ’who 
they are if you can? Do you see Mr. WallisTs horse there?

A Not very good picture of the horses.
Q All right.
A It is confusing.
Q We move further. Mow, we ask you to examine this picture, sir, 

which is marked A-210, and direct your attention to the 
horsemen in the scene, and tell us what that scene depicts?

MR. SMITH: We object to this, if the court please.
THE COURT: If he can, I will permit it.
MR. HALL: Sir?

A It is hard to identify horses that far off there. Now, there
is some white blotches on there, that is a white blotch, that
is a white horse background, it is not clear enough for me to 
make an identification.

Q Well, Mr. Middlebrooks, you could tell us —  could you tell us 
what the scene depicts, itself, without —

A It shows —
Q -- identifying anyone, if you can?

MR. WILKINSON: We object to this, if it please the
court: the picture speaks for itself.

THE COURT: Well, I take it he is going to see if 
he understands it: the purpose for going Into it further if it is 
on cross examination differs completely from direct testimony where

56



57

you are introducing photographs and then asking the witness to say 
what they show; overrule.

MR. HALL: All right, sir.
Q We withdraw that question, Mr. Middlebrooks, and ask you this;

do you see pictures of men on foot?
A I do.
Q You do; are they —  do they appear to be running?
A Two of them do.
Q Do they appear to be chase —  being chased by men on horses?
A There is a horse behind them.
Q Are there —  is there one horse or several horses behind them? 
A Well, there is several horses coming down behind them.
Q As a matter of fact, isn’t it five horsemen coming down behind

these men, and aren’t there three men on foot and running?
A Yes.
Q I will ask you this, Mr. Middlebrooks; can you look at this 

picture and tell us whether or no these mounted men aren’t 
possemen or deputies of Sheriff Jim Clark?

A I would say yes, they are men on horses, and all I recall was 
some of the possemen.

Q Were you, yourself, over in that area, taming pictures?
A Not that I recall —  taking pictures? 
q Yes, sir: did you go there to take any pictures?
A On Sunday?
Q On Sunday, March 7 —



5&

A March 7 —
Q at about the time of the attempted march from Selma to

Montgomery?
A I was not making pictures.
Q Uere you in that general area?
A I was across the river on highway DO east.
Q No, air; I meant where the pictures —  the last picture we were

looking at was taken?
A I don’t recall; I was over a pretty good area over there.
Q At some time were —
A At some time I was.
Q At some time —  go right ahead?
A At some time I was over a large area.
Q Did you, yourself, at any time chase anyone on your horse?
A Well, I rode behind them; I asked several of them to leave, anc. 

I rode behind them; now, some people call that chasing them, 
some call it riding along behind them seeing they move on out.

Q Let me ask you this, sir; were you riding at a gallop behind 
them?

A Once or twice.
Q. And were the persons in front running?
A They was.
Q You don’t say you were chasing them?
A I was riding behind them.

MR. MILL: Thank you; that’s all, sir.



59

THE COURT: Mr. Doar.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q On the 7th of March, who was in charge of the Mounted Posse?
A Captain John Cross was there, and I am the deputy in charge, 

supposedly assigned to be the deputy in charge, but due to the 
fact I have been making a lot of pictures, Captain Stoves was 
along with me.

Q Who was in charge of the Mounted Posse that day; were you in 
charge or Stoves in charge or Cross in charge?

A I would say Captain Stoves.
Q You would say that?
A He is the ranking officer.
Q All right. What instructions did he give you with respect to

your duties that day, you and the other members of the Posse?
A We we re there to disperse the crowd should it become necessary,,
Q V/hat force did he instruct you to use in dispersing the crowds'’
A Only force enough to move —  get the people to move out of the

way.
Q And to move —  move off the highway?
A Out of the areas wherever necessary.
Q What instructions were you given about moving the people back 

to the church?
A We were told to get the people back over the bridge toward the 

church, to carry the people back to the church.



60

Q Where did those instructions cone from?
A Sheriff Clark.
Q Sheriff Clark gave you those instructions?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what -- who made the arrangements for the Posse, the 

Mounted Posse, to be there that day?
A John Cross called the members; he was —  he was told by someone 

to call the members.
Q Who told him to call the members?
A I don’t recall.
Q Who told you to get your horse?
A Well, I knew the horses were coming: I had heard them talking 

about the horses coming.
Q Who gave you the instructions to get a horse and go over there'’
A I don’t know if the order come from Captain Stoves or from 

Sheriff Clark.
Q Did you have any instructions from the State Patrol as to what 

you should do over across the bridge?
A We were only there to assist the State Patrol.
Q Who was in charge of the operation then?
A Which operation?
Q The operation of dispersing that crox̂ d: was it the State Patrol
A I would say so.
Q Did Sheriff Clark tell you that you were to take your orders 

from somebody in the State Patrol?



61

A He did not tell me.
Q Did he tell you from whom you were to take your orders?
A We had Captain Stoves along, and we were taking orders there.
Q Did Captain Stoves instruct you or any other members of the

Posse that you heard to chase Negroes in the fields behind the 
Kayo Service Station?

A I didnTt hear that, because I was across the street.
Q Did you chase any of the Negroes in the fields?
A I was over there.
Q Over behind the Kayo Service Station?
A Yeah, and there was some running across the field.
Q And were you chasing them?
A I didn’t chase them: I was up behind the station there.
Q Did the other members of the Posse chase them?
A The horses were behind them.
Q What are the names of the Posse members that were chasing those 

Negroes?
A E. P. Wallis was there, and I believe John Cross was there, anc. 

Harold Hendrix, and that’s all I recall right off hand.
Q Did any member --- did Hr. Middlebrooks, Deputy Middle brooks, 

instruct E. P. Wallis or John Cross or Harold Hendrix to chase 
those Negroes behind the Kayo Service Station?

A I was across the street at the time that started.

Q Then did you go over into that field?
A I went over into that area and ordered the men to assemble.



62

Q You ordered the men to stop doing it; is that right?
A To assemble.
Q What do you mean by, ’’Assemble"?
A To come back, because the crowd was getting heavier on the

bridge, there was a big congregation on the bridge, and we had 
to move them off of the bridge, and there was a large crowd of 
people around the Chick-N-Treat and the Glass House, a very 
angry crowd, and we felt like we needed those horses there 
between the white crowd and the Negro crowd.

Q Did you say anything to E. P. Cross, Wallis, or Hendrix about 
chasing those Negroes in the field?

A I did not; I assembled them back in a bunch.
Q You didnTt tell them to stop doing that?
A I called them and told them to assemble.
Q You told them to assemble?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q Was that any part of their duties that day to chase these Negro 

citizens in that field?
A I feel like it was.
Q Just exactly why did you feel like it was?
A Because we had large crowds of people around the Chick-N-Treat,

around the Glass House, that was very angry crowd, the whites, 
we had the Negro citizens on the —  on the highway, and these 
come up from the rear, onlookers, and it was a very good 
situation to incite to get a riot started.



Did the _ did the Posse members chase any of the white people

Several of them.
And when?
After we crossed the bridge over there, after we moved them 
back across the bridge, they —  we went back over the bridge 
once or twice to see if everything was all clear, and then we 
had orders to go back over the bridge and help move the crowd 
on down to the church, that they were throwing rocks and 

bottles around the church.

?

I am talking about on the —  on the Montgomery side of the 
Pettus Bridge and around the Kayo Service Station, did you see 
any Deputy Sheriff or Posse member chase any white people?
I saw a State Trooper bump into one of the horses went by, I 
would call that chasing just as much as I would any of the 

rest of them.
You mean to tell me that when a State -  when a Posse member 
bumps into a State Trooper that the Posse member was doing the 
same thing as he was when he was chasing the Negroes?

No, I don’t; accidental.
That is all you say -- saw with respect to 
with the white people?

the way they dealt

Not —  no, that is not all I saw.
What else did you see?
Back of the Chick-N-Treat when these Negroes started up from



64

rear, we had Negroes in the highway, we had a very angry crowd 
around the Glass House, around the Chick-N-Treat and Kayo 
Service Station, then from the rear come a bunch of Negroes 
coming up behind.

Q What were they doing?
A They were just walking up to look.
Q Just walking up to look?
A So far as I know; I didnTt ask any of them what they were doin?
Q That is all you saw; you saw that?
A I saw them walking behind then.
Q Then were the Posse members instructed to chase those Negroes?
A I donTt know who instructed them; I saw them go out there to

push them back.
Q Did you instruct any of them, of the Posse members, to chase 

those Negroes?
A Not that group you are talking about.
Q Did —  prior thereto, did anyone instruct those Posse members 

to chase Negroes if they came up and watched?
A Well, I am sure that somebody give them the order; I don’t knoft 

who.
Q Well, did you hear someone give them the orders?
A I did not; I was across the street.
Q  The only person that would be in charge would either be Cross 

or Stoves; is that right?
A Cross or Stoves had a few men on one side, and I hud a few men



over on the other side of the street. We were on two aifferen'
sides of the street until that crowd started coming up there 
where it looked like it might be trouble, and then we moved 
over on that side.
Now, prior to the time that the Posse went into action, did 
Major Cloud or Colonel Lingo gather the Posse together and give 
them any instructions?
Not that I know of.
Prior to the time that the Posse went into action, did Sheriff 
Clark gather the Posse around and give them any instructions? 
Not that I know of.
You then had no instructions with respect to what force you 
should use to disperse the crowd?
We had been told to re--  we were called over for reinforcement
should we be needed.
Now, who moved the Posse into action?
I seen the horses riding off, and I went over; I don’t know who 
give the order, I didn’t, I didn’t hear the order; I was on one 
side of the street, and I saw these horses moving out, and due 
to what training we have had, when one bunch of the horses 
moved out, I figured it was necessary for the others to come 
on over with them, and I went across the street where these 
horses were moving out, because you could hear the crowd all 
the way across that street over there, they were on top of 
automobiles and everything else, and I figured it was time



66

enough to get over in that area and try to assist to keen dovm 
anything from happening.

Q When you got over there, all you did was order the Posse to 
reassemble ?

A Because they had rode off dovm there a Tways, and they had _
they had run off down there, and we had orders at that time fro: 
Sheriff Clark to clear the bridge.

Q How, you testified that they were —  there was people walking 
all over the bridge, they were ail over the bridge; now, isn’t 
it a fact that they were on the sidewalk walking back on the 
bridge?

A You are talking o_l two different occasions; I said they were
on the bridge, I didn’t say —  I don’t recall making the state - 
ment they were all over the bridge.

Q Well, then I correct that, I am sorry, but the —  your —
your testimony is —  then is this fair, that they were on the
sidewalk walking back across the bridge?

A Part of the time some of them was off on the street, but not 
all over the street; part of the time there would be a few of 
them off on the street.

Q And you —  while you were moving them back across the bridge, 
you caused those people to run by urging your horse faster so 
that they would move at a faster rate?

A I —  I didn’t urge them to run faster: I was riding on the side
of the people and telling them to keep moving.



67

Q
A
Q
A

Q

Q

But some of them were running?
Some of the people?
Yes, sir?
They were trying to catch up with the other crowd who had gone 
off and left them; there were some people running on the bridge. 
I didn’t catch the name of that man on the white horse?
There is two horses there 'were white; which —
The pure white, the all white horse?
The pure white?
Yes?
Is Wyatt.

Q Wyatt?
A Wyatt.
Q How many possemen were on duty that day?
A I believe thirteen or fourteen of the Mounted Posse, I believe:

I don’t recall counting then.
Q I would like to show you a document out of Plaintiff-Intervenor’, 

Exhibit 12 ---
MR. DOAR; That has not been yet offered in evidence,

your honor.
—  and ask you if you would look at that and tell me whether or 
not those are the names of the members of the Mounted Posse tna 0

were on duty on March 7?
A I recall those men being there.
Q That -- that list contains fifteen names: do you recall each anji



every one of those persons being present on March 7?
A I do.

Q Were there any others present?i
A Not that I remember.
Q This list that you have looked at, it is entitled, ''Members

of Dallas County Mounted Posse," and is dated March 9; is that 
right?

A That is names of the Mounted Posse.
Q Yeah, but I mean the date on top for identification —
A March 9.
Q -- was March 9, 1965?
A Right.

MR. WILKINSON: Mr. Doar, would you mind letting
me see that list?

MR. DOAR: No, not at all. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Smith.

BY MR. SMITH:
Q You mentioned that you took photographs in and around the Dalla 

County Court House on February 16, February 22, and March 6, of 
this year —

A Yes, sir.
Q -- is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, wore you present at the Dallas County Court House on any 

other occasion this year when demonstrations were taking place



69

there ?
A I presume I have been there every time there were any 

demonstrations there, the best I recall.
Q Can you give me your judgment or opinion as to when these

demonstrations in and around the Court House first commenced?
A The best that I remember about them, along from February.
Q Along in February?
A From --
Q Would it be the middle —
A From the 1st or 2nd of February on up I recall, well recall.
Q The 2nd of February is your best recollection as to when the

marches or demonstrations around the Court House started?
A Well, I wouldn’t say on the 2nd, but around the first of 

February: I am not too sure about 2nd day of February, but 
around the first of February.

Q And have they continued up to the present date?
A They have.
Q Up until this time?
A Yes, sir.
Q You say you have been present at most of these demonstrations 

around the Court House?
A I have.
Q Have each of them attracted crowds of white people?
A Very much so.
Q Have some of the crowds of white people they have attracted be



70

large crowds?
A They have.
Q Now, you say you were present Sunday, March 7?
A That’s right.
Q At the Edmund Pettus Bridge?
A Yes, sir.
Q I want your estimate as to the number of white people that were 

on the Montgomery side of the bridge Sunday, March 7?
A Does that mean parked vehicles or on highway SO —
Q When I say —  when I say white people, I mean other than law 

enforcement people?
A You mean in the vehicles or traffic that was tied up?
Q Anwhere, yes?
A Well, traffic was tied up from the traffic light this end of

the River Bridge, me sitting on a horse, as far down the highwa 
as I could see, two and three deep.

Q All right. Now, back to the Court House; on each of the
occasions that you have observed demonstrations there, have 
there been present United States Marshals, F.B.I. Agents, 
Sheriff’s deputies, and State Troopers?

A I don’t recall the State Troopers being around when these 
demonstrations and all were around the Court House.

Q Have the F.B.I. Agents been present on each occasion?

A They have.
q Have United States Marshals been present on each occasion?



71

h

Q
A

Q
A
Q
A

Q

A
Q
A

Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q

A

In and around the Court House; not -- they didn’t remain, they 
were there on business, in and out.
Were F.B.I. Agents present on -- 
On all occasions.
On Sunday; on Sunday?
Yes, sir.
Were United States Marshals present at that time?
I —  no, I don’t recall on Sunday —  March 7 was on Sunday, an 
I don’t recall seeing any United States Marshals.
All right. In your opinion —  how long have you been a lav/ 
enforcement officer in Dallas County?
I have been on the pay roll since the 1st of July.
1st of July?
But for the past six or seven years I have worked as a special 
deputy assisting the Department.
How long have you lived in Dallas County?
About eight years, or nine.
There is one photograph that shows an emblem on the arm of the 
man shown in the photograph with a Nazi Party —
Yes, sir.
-- emblem?
les, sir.
Are other members of the Nazi Party or people who v/ear emblenu 
the Nazi Party emblems, in Selma?
With this —



72

Q Have you seen other people?
A This particular one that I have the photograph of, I know tners 

was one other one with him; I know there were two on that 
occasion, possibly three.

Q Do you know of any others?
A Not with the bands on.
Q In your opinion as a lav; enforcement officer, if a march or a 

demonstration were conducted by Negro citizens along U. S. 
highway SO from Selma to Montgomery in Dallas County, would it 
attract large numbers of white people?

A It would.
MR. SMITH: I believe that’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Kohn.
MR. KOHN: No questions, your honor.
THE COURT: Redirect, Mr. Pitts.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir: just one or two question

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. P. H. PITTS:
Q Now, Mr. Middlebrooks, I believe on cross you were examined 

as to an incident which occurred with C. T. Vivian on —  I 
believe it was February 16, 1965; now, at the time C. T. Vivian 
came to the Alabama entrance of the Dallas County Court House, 
was the Lauderdale Street entrance open?

A It was.
Q And was there a voter registration line on the Lauderdale Stree



73

entrance on that particular day?
A It was not.
Q Were there people signing the application book on that 

particular day?
A Not at the particular time during the riot.
Q Had they been that morning?
A I don’t —  I don’t recall; the particular day is not in my mini 

fresh enough to say as to the date.
Q Uh, huh; is that the usual entrance that is used for the voter 

registration line on the Lauderdale Street side?
A I believe it was designated.
Q It was designated?
A I believe it was designated.
Q And by who was it designated?
A I believe it was designated by Judge Thomas.
Q All right. Mow, going back to Sunday, March 7, 1965; were

there large groups of white people gathered in and around the 
businesses on the other side, on the Montgomery side, of the 
bridge?

A It was.
Q And before this march started, were there also large groups of 

Negro citizens gathered out around this area?
A There were groups in —  in between the buildings.
Q Did the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department move these groups, 

both white and Negro, back away from the highway?



74

A They did.
Q And did they keep the white citizens who were out in and aroun 

this area from coning on to the highway?
A They did.

THE COURT: Any other questions from this witness?
Witness be excused from the witness stand.

WITNESS: Thank you, your honor.
(END OF TESTIMONY CONTAINED IN THIS TRANSCRIPT)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 
NORTHERN DIVISION
I, Glynn Henderson, Official Court Reporter of the United States 
District Court for the Middle District of Alabana, do hereby 
certify that the foregoing 74 pages contain a true and correct 
transcript of proceedings had before the said Court held in the 
City of Montgomery, Alabana, in the natter therein stated, or that 
portion of said proceedings indicated in note on page 2 thereof.
In testimony whereof I hereunto set my

MR. P. II. PITTS: That’s all
THE COURT: Recross, Mr. Hall
IR. HALL: We have no questions
THE COURT: Mr. Doar
MR. DOAR: No, sir

of March, 1965



m

FILED
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT f^p oc iqcr
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

NORTHERN DIVISION R. c og^ONi clerk
Hv

Clerk

Hosea Williams, John Lewis 
and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
of themselves and others 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,

Civil Action 
No. 2161-N.

United States of America,
Plaintiff-Intervenor,

vs
Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama; A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Before Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery, 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965.

(NOTE: This transcript is an excerpt transcript
containing the testimony of JOHN CLOUD, witness 
in rebuttal for the United States, in hearing 
in above case March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965, this 
testimony having been adduced on March 16, 1965.)

Glynn Henderson, 
Official CourtReporter.



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

NORTHERN DIVISION

Hosea Williams, John Lewis 
and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
of themselves and others 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
United States of America,

Plaintiff-Intervenor,
vs

Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama; A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Civil Action 
No. 21S1-N.

■piled
BAS 3 0 1965

•p. C. DOBSON, C1-ERH

D ep u ty  C le rk

Before Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 1 9 6 5.

(NOTE: This transcript is an excerpt transcript
containing the testimony of ASBURY MIDDLEBROOKS 
witness for the defendant, James G. Clark, in 
hearing in above case March 11-12-13-15-16, 196; 
which testimony was adduced on March 15, 1965.)

Glynn Henderson, Official Court
Reporter.



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

NORTHERN DIVISION

!j Hosea Williams, John Lewis 
! and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
j of themselves and others 
|i similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
j! United States of America,

Plaintiff-Intervenor, 
vs

j Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama;
A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Civil Action 
No. 21S1-N.

Before Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery, 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965.

A p p e a r a n c e s :  
For the Plaintiffs:

For the United States:

Gray & Seay
(Fred D. Gray and 
Solomon S. Seay, Jr.), 

Peter A. Hall,
Jack Greenberg,
Norman Amaker,
Charles H. Jones, Jr., 
Oscar W. Adams,
Demetrius C. Newton,
James M. Nabrit, III, 
Charles S. Ralston.
Ben Hardeman,
John Doar,
David Reuben.



2

For George C. Wallace: 
(and for A1 Lingo 
3/11-12)

For A1 Lingo:
(from 3/13)

For James G. Clark:

Goodwyn & Smith 
(Maury D. Smith, 
Charles M. Crook, and 
John S. Bowman).

John P. Kohn, Jr.

McLean Pitts,
P. H. Pitts,
J. E. Wilkinson, Jr., 
T. G. Gayle.

(NOTE: This transcript is an excerpt transcript
containing the testimony of JOHN CLOUD, witness 
in rebuttal for the United States, in hearing 
in above case March 11-12-13-15-16, 1965, this 
testimony having been adduced on March 16, 1965.)



3

JOHN CLOUD, witness for the United States in rebuttal, having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

i|
BY MR. DOAR:

DIRECT EXAMINATION:

| Q 
A 
Q

!A 
Q
A
Q

! A 
Q 
A 
Q

A
Q

A

Q

Will you tell the court your full name, please?
Major John Cloud.
Where do you live, Major Cloud?
Here in Montgomery.
What is your occupation?
As Highway Patrolman or State Trooper.
Major Cloud, would you speak up in a just a little louder voice 
so everyone in the court room could hear you?
Yes, sir.
How long have you been with the State Highway Patrol?
I think it will be eighteen years in May.
And at the present time what are your official duties with the 
State Highway patrol?
As Commander of the State Trooper Division.
And as the Commander of the State Trooper Division, what are yo 
responsibilities?
It’s as supervisor of all Troopers, enforcement Troopers, 
throughout the State, and well, that is just about it.
Now, were you in charge of the number of Troopers that were at 
Selma, Alabama, on March 7, 1965?

i:



i Q And when did you arrive in Selma?
A On that date or —  or when I first went to Selma?

j Q No, on that particular date?
A I went back into Selma Saturday afternoon sometime after court

recessed here.
Q Did you have any instructions with respect to a proposed march 

by a group of Negroes from Selma to Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you first receive instructions about that march?
A Well, the first instructions were changed.
Q And what were the first instructions?
A The first instructions was to -- that we were going to let them 

march on 80 and block off the traffic.
Q And from whom did you get those instructions?
A Colonel Lingo.
Q When did you get those instructions?
A I believe that it was on Friday afternoon.
Q And what —  were you given any further details with respect to 

the march?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were those details?
A On that particular month —  on receipt of instructions, it was 

to let them march; we were going to block off highway for foot 
traffic only and let them go through.

Q And when were those instructions changed?

4



5

It was on Friday afternoon —  no, I believe it was on Saturday,
9

I am —  I believe it might have been on Friday afternoon; I am 
not positive of that.
What were the changed instructions, Major Cloud?
Well, the changed instructions were that we was going to stop 
them on the highway.
And were you told where you should stop them on the highway?
No, sir; I believe that I selected the spot of stopping, myself; 
I am not positive of that.
What instructions were you given with respect to your course of 
action after you stopped the marchers on the highway?
We were going to stop them, tell them that it was an unlawful 
assembly, and that the march would not continue, and that we 
were to disperse them by the use of minimum amount of force that 
was necessary, and if they lay down in in the street where 
they were, we was to use gas.
Now, who did those instructions come from?
Colonel Lingo.
And what instructions did you then give your men with respect 
to the use of force?
It was the same instructions of the minimum amount of force to 
turn them —  try to turn them physically; if they lay down on 
the road, we were going to disperse them with the use of gas. 
Now, what arrangements did you make with respect to commands out 
on the highway during the time that the -- the dispersal



6

operation was in being carried out? Did you have any sig--
set of signals worked out with the Troopers under your direction

A No. sir; it was to be actually voice command; it was no
arrangement made on —  as to how the command would be given.

Q Now, after the marchers got out on the highway, did you see them 
coming?

A Yes, sir.
Q Did you observe their conduct as they came across the bridge?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were they peaceful?
A Apparently.
Q Were they orderly?
A They were on the walk of the bridge.
Q Were they orderly?
A As far as I could see from where I was.
Q You then lined up a number of Troopers across the highway just

below the overhead signs on the -- on the east side of the 
highway; is that right?

A Yes, sir.
Q And after the instruction was given to the marchers to disperse 

what happened?
A Well, they —  I -- I —  letTs see, when they -- after the

instructions were given to them to disperse and they refused to 
do so, I gave the order to the Troopers to disperse them.

Q Then what happened?

♦O



Well, the Troopers, to the best of my knowledge of it, began to 
slowly walk into the crowd. After they got into the crowd, the 
front lines of this march began to be a turmoil, and I called 
for the Troopers to regroup.
Did you -- had you given the Troopers any instructions with 
respect to striking any of the -- of the marchers at that time? 
Our Troopers are always told not to strike, but to use their 
stick as a —  as a means of shoving, pushing, or prodding.
Did jrou see any of your Troopers strike any of the Negroes 
there in that first advance?
No, sir; I saw people falling, including the Troopers; Troopers 
fell as well as the people in the march.
Now, then you called for the Troopers to regroup?
Yes, sir.
What kind of a signal did you use?
I used the P.A. system that I had that I stopped the marchers
with.
And then what happened?
Well, they came back to the head of the line, or the biggest 
portion of them regrouped.
Where were the others?
Well, we had some that were scattered on the side of each road, 
they were still in that area, and I sent Captain Moore down 
through that area, because some of them couldnrt hear with the
gas masks on, to get them to regroup; all of them probably never



6

regrouped in that particular spot.
Q And did you —  did you observe at that time whether there was 

any of the marchers laying prone on the highway?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what if anything did you do about them?
A Well, some of them were getting up, and we didn’t do anything 

about -- I didn’t at that particular time, of those.
Q Now, what instructions did you give the Troopers with respect 

to using gas?
A You mean at that time?
Q Prior instructions, yes?
A Well, we had told them that if they lay down that we would use 

gas; that is the instruction —  that was the instructions that 
they had, if they didn’t get up.

Q And how much gas did you intend to use?
A I think that we issued out about eight canisters of nausea gas, 

and twelve canisters of smoke gas, and forty canisters of tear 
gas.

Q Where is your supply depot on that gas?
A That gas is scattered throughout the State.
Q When you said it was issued out, where —
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was it issued out from?
A It v;as brought in; some was already in Selma, and the other —  

other canisters of gas was brought in by seme of the men that



9

Q
A
Q

A

Q
A
Q
A

Q

A
Q
A

came into that area on Saturday.
How much of that gas that was issued was used?
I have no knowledge of how much was used.
What instructions did you give your men with respect to their 
conduct in carrying out their orders after the gas was used? 
Well, no instructions was given to them as to what to do, other 
than to —  the thought was that the gas would break this 
dispersal up, and it was to herd them or gather them, head them 
rather, back toward town.
And did you see what happened after the gas was used?
Some; yes, sir.
And what happened?
Well, some of the people that was in this group that was laying 
down began to get up and try to run, and —  and some of them 
did, a lot of them did in fact, I saw one boy come from the 
front, run around the front end of it, and when he hit the 
pavement, he had a suitcase in his hand, and his feet slid out 
from under him, and he slid about ten feet, and he jumped up, 
run back, and picked the suitcase up and —  and went back toward 
town along the highway.
Now, did you —  did you give the Troopers any instructions to
move into these people that didnTt move after gas was used? 
You mean at the time, out at the scene?
Prior to the time gas was used?
No, sir.



10

Q You hadnTt given them any instructions to move in at all?
A No, sir.
Q Had they had any training or experience that indicated that this 

was standard operating procedure for the Troopers to move in and 
among the persons that were —  against whom the gas was used?

A Yes, sir; the riot training school that we have had, it has
taught them that to try to break groups up, to scatter them out , 
and get them headed in one direction if possible.

Q Then the —  the instructions that the Troopers had then was that 
after the gas was used to move in among the people and to scatter 
them, separate them, break them up?

A That is standard instructions; yes, sir.
Q Was any instruction given to them about the use of force?
A The standard instructions in the school is to use only what force

is necessary to disperse a crowd.
Q Did you have any instructions with respect to making any arrests
A No,sir; I didntt.
Q Did you have any instructions not to make any arrests?
A No, sir; I didn’t.
Q Did you determine, yourself, that you would not make arrests?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was your decision?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the basis of that decision?
A The basis of that decision was having seen these things go on



11

as they have in the past, ever}'- time arrests have been made, th3 

next day there would be more people to come to these meetings.
Q Now, did you ask for the Sheriff’s Posse to come out there that 

afternoon?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know that they were there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have any discussion with the Sheriff’s office with

respect to what their responsibilities would be with respect to 
this march?

A Yes, sir.
Q What was that discussion?
A It was to the effect that a certain group of the deputies and

Posse would be kept within the city limits to be used by the 
City in the event that the City called for help, the rest of 
them, I don’t know how many, was going to be staked out on the 
east side of the bridge and to be used only if it became neces­
sary.

Q And that is, the Posse was to be used only if it became necessar
A That was —  that was my understanding; yes, sir.
Q Was that your understanding with Sheriff Clark?
A No, sir.
Q With whom?
A Chief Crocker.
Q I see. And did you call for the Posse, the Mounted Posse, to go



12

into action that day?
A No, sir.
Q Did you feel it was necessary to control that situation that the 

Posse go into action that day? With your State Troopers there?
A Well, as from the way the things were —  the people were

running, I —  I kind of feel like it was justified; I feel like 
it was justified in using them trying to contain them.

Q But you didn’t call for them —
A No, sir.
Q —  to move into action?
A No, sir.
Q And your understanding was they would not go into action unless 

they were needed?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were in command?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know before you went out there what experience those 

Mounted Posse had in law enforcement?
A No, sir; not personally.
Q Did you give them any instructions out there what they should 

do when they went into action —
A None what--
Q -- with respect to the use of force?
A None whatsoever.
Q Now, with respect to the use of the nauseous gas, what effect



13
.

does that have upon a person against whom it is used?
A It makes them ill: my -- I think sick at the stomach.

i Q And you were aware of the fact, the consequences of the use ofi
noxious gas?

I A Yes, sir.
Q And were those eight canisters of noxious gas divided along 

this entire line of the march?
A I donTt actually know where they were used.
Q But they were used along the line of the march?
A I —  I am assuming that they were; yes, sir. I never asked if

thejr were when it was over.
Q In your opinion, was it reasonable to have the State Troopers 

move into areas where noxious gas was used to use their clubs 
to disperse a crowd?

A If they didn’t break up. V/hen that thing —  thing first —  when 
they first lay down --

Q I mean after the gas was used, after the noxious gas was used?
A Yes, sir; some of them were —  would not leave out of that area,
Q Well, would you believe that in your judgment it was necessary 

to use a club on a person?
MR. KOHN: Now, we object to the form of that

question --
MR. DOAR: I withdraw that.
MR. KOHN: —  use a club on them.
THE COURT: Sustain your objection.



MR. DOAR: I withdraw that.

14

Can you tell whether or not you observed the use of this noxious 
gas on the crowd?
No, sir; I couldn’t see anybody at that time apparently ill.
Now, ao any time ohat afternoon, did any of the marchers commit 
any act of violence on the east -- on the Montgomery side of the 
bridge?
I was told they did.
But did you see any?
I never saw any violence.
And did you see any of your Troopers strike any of the —  of the 
marchers?
No, sir; I didn’t.
Did you have any previous arrangements with the City Police with 
respect to that afternoon?
Yes, sir; I had talked to Mayor Smitherman and —  and Wilson 
Baker.
Did you, prior to the time your Troopers went into action, give 
them any instructions with respect to their conduct in dispersing 
this crowd?
Not actually; no, sir.
Did you --
It is just a standard thing that is taught.
What I am asking —  these -- these marchers were Negroes; is that 
correct?



15

A And white.
Q Principally —  principally Negroes? 
A Yes.
Q White people and sympathizers?
A Yes, sir.
q And most of your lav; enforcement officers are white?

A Yes, sir.
Q Did you tell your Troopers before they went into action that the? 

must not let their personal feelings interiere with the 
performance of their duty?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to that.
MR. KOKN: We object to the form of that question; iu

is not a question that is in issue in the case what their personal 

feeling was.
THE COURT: Well, I sustain it to the question as

phrased.
Q Did you give —  did you give the —  your Troopers any other 

specific instructions except just to use a minimum amount of 

force ?
A And use the gas if they lay down.
Q And then what were the instructions after the gas was to be used
A Well, we were assuming that the gas would break them up, and we

were going to get them headed back in the direction of town.
Q Did the Troopers have an instruction not to move into the crowc 

after the gas was used until you gave them an oraei.



16

Q You did did the Troopers move into the --- into the —  into 
the line of marchers without an order from you, after the gas 
was used?

A Some did: some moved in on order.
Q You ordered them?
A On a particular order.
Q What was your particular order?
A When this gas was dispersed and some of these Negroes were layî ij 

in the —  in the gas, they had their faces covered with 
handkerchiefs, and I instructed some of the Troopers to pull th 
out of the gas and pull them back out to where they wouldn’t be 
laying right there in the gas.

Q That was your specific instructions to the Troopers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that over the loudspeaker?
A No, sir; there was a group of Troopers there that I told them 

personally to pull those people out of that gas.
Q Other than that, you didn’t give any specific instruction to

your Troopers to move into those people after the gas was used?
A No, sir.
Q And can you tell me whether or not they did move into the peoplje
A Some did; yes, sir.
Q You know who the —  who those Troopers were?
A Mo, sir; I do not.

A Mo, sir.



17

How many Troopers were involved in this?
There were somewhere in the neighborhood of sixty-five, someth! 
like that. That is in the overall thing.
Did you receive any instructions from Colonel Lingo out at the 
scene of the —  of the march?
Yes, sir.
What instructions did you receive from him?
Well, let me —  could I have a minute just to think on it?

1W

Yes?
One of the instructions that I received from him through a p.A. 
system on his car was about keeping the news men contained on 
one side, which I had already set up. Another instruction was 
along the line after these people had fallen to the ground was 
to use the gas.
Did he give you any further instructions about the Troopers 
moving into the people that were along the line?
Wo, sir.
About how much time elapsed between the time you pulled your 
Troopers back after the first advance and the time they used gas'i 
I would say five or —  five minutes or more, just under the 
circumstances, just having to guess at it at that time.
Now, was Sheriff Clark with you on the scene?
He was there whenever I stopped the march: yes, sir.
Did you consult with Sheriff Clark that afternoon with respect 
to dispersing the crowd?



IS

Q Were the Troopers able to hear the instructions, if you know, 
when they had their gas masks on that you gave over the 
loudspeaker system?

A To re---  to reassemble?
Q Not only to reassemble, but to use the gas?
A No order was ever given to use the gas.
Q How did the gas happen to be used?
A That was something that —  that I don’t knoitf. It —  it started 

—  it seemed to start up at the front end of the line, and —  
and was just a spontaneous thing of coming down.

Q Had you instructed the Troopers prior to that time not to use 
gas until they were ordered to do so?

A Their their only instructions as to the use of it was that i.
they lay down we were going to use it, and it was just assumed
that they would wait to follow a command of using it.

Q That would have been the standard procedure —
A Yes, sir.
Q —  for the Troopers to await a command from their superior?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know who released the first gas?
A No, sir; I do not.
Q Was anybody in that line with the gas besides the Troopers?
A That I don’t know.
Q Was Sheriff Clark there?

A No, sir.



19

Q Did he release a canister of gas?
A He had -- at one time he had one of these spray type things,

and —  and once it momentarily sprayed out before any gas was 
used, but then he —  he —  it shut off.

Q Sheriff Clark, then, was the first person that started to spray 
gas that afternoon?

A Well, that was before all of the gas was started to being used; 
yes, sir.

Q And that was -- then after that happened, your Troopers started 
to throw the gas?

A Mot at that particular time; no, sir; because he was walking
down the line when this can--  this container thing, spray thing,
went off, and he said that it went off accidentally.

Q Well, I don’t care what he said, but it did go off?
A Yes, sir.
Q And —  and that was before your Troopers used any gas?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then how much time elapsed between that occurrence and the 

time your Troopers started to throw the gas?
A There was three or four minutes, actually.
Q And they then released the gas without any command from you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they get a command from Colonel Lingo?
A No, sir.

A Yes, sir.



20

Q Are you sure of that?
A Colonel Lingo gave the command to me to give to the men, and —  

and knowing that they couldn’t hear me from where I was, I 
couldn’t give a verbal command to do it, and —  and about that 
time it started, and come —  it just come right down the line.

Q What —  what precautions had you taken out there that day to be 
sure that the men would hear your commands, if any?

A Well, no actually no precautions were taken. I —  I had
thought that this group would turn around on command and go bac 
to their church or to their home as they were instructed to do, 
and —  and the men that had the gas were supposed to have been 
fairly close to me to where I could tell them to use it, but 
then when this turmoil started at the very—  pushing and 
falling that occurred on both sides, they got scattered.

Q The men got scattered?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you -- can you tell me why you decided to stop the mar|cJ 

on the Montgomery side of the highway rather than on the Selma 
side of the bridge?

MR. McLEAN FITTS: We object.
MR. KOHN: That is a direct examination, this is

direct examination; object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Overrule; he is calling him as an advers|e

witness, I assume.
MR. DOAR: That’s right.



21

A Would you repeat the question?
Q I was asking you about the basis of your judgment or decision

to stop the march on the —  on the Montgomery side of the bridge 
rather than on the Selma side of the bridge?

A Well, the Selma side of the bridge was in the city limits, and - 
and it was just decided that to stop them the City —  I don’t 
know whether the City would have stopped them or not, but it was 
just decided that if they were going to make the march to 
Montgomery, that for us to stop them they would get out of the 
city limits.

Q Did —  prior to the time that you went into action, did Sheriff 
Clark understand clearly that it was 3'-our responsibility to 
disperse that crowd?

MR. SMITH: Object.
THE COURT: Sustain it to that question.

Q Did you -- I would like to ask you again whether or not you had 
any discussion with Sheriff Clark before the dispersal as to whc 
would be in charge of dispersing the crowd, the marchers?

A As to dispersing them?
Q Yes, who would be in charge of the operation; did you have any 

discussion with Sheriff Clark about it?
A Only —  only right at the confrontation point, none -- none pric 

to that.
Q What discussion did you have at the confrontation point?

The Sheriff asked me if he wanted me —  if I wanted him to stopA



22

the marchers, and I told him no, that —  that we would do it,
Q Did he —  did he say anything about dispersing the crowd?
A No, sir.
Q Did he say anything about what he would do?
A No, sir.

MR. DOAR: Thank you.
BY MR. GRAY:
Q Major, there are —  has been a report to the effect that what 

the Troopers did on Sunday was not the orders originally given, 
and it was further reported that the Troopers were supposed to 
have formed a human wall and to just remain there, and only to 
use any force if the marchers attacked them: were any such 
information ever conveyed to you?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to that question, a
leading question.

THE COURT: Overrule.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We except.

A
Q

No.
Now, I think you testified, sir, that originally you were 
supposed to let them through, and then those orders were changed; 
when was the first time you discussed with your superiors the 
plans for making —  for stopping the march or for handling the 
march; when were the first time this matter was discussed with

you?
Well, I donTt I donTt know, it has been discussed, it had beer



23

discussed several days prior to this actual stopping.
And who did you discuss it with initially?
Well, with Colonel Lingo.
l/-'-ll you cell us what ionn oa. the —— how — — how was this done* 
was it Dy phone or was it in conference, or just what the 
situation was initially?
I think mainly it was just face to facej I am not positive of 
it --
Do you remember where --
-- because it had been a good bit of discussion about it.
Do you remember where that conference took place?
I believe it was in his office.
In your best judgment when?
Three or four days before the actual confrontation, the best of 
my knowledge.
Who were present at that time, other than you and Colonel Lingo?
I donTt remember when the actual first time was, because this 
thing has been discussed from time to time and is —  and different 
ones have been present at different times when —  when the actual 
thing was discussed.
Well, as —  as best you recall, who was present other than Colonel 
Lingo and yourself when the plans were being discussed for 
handling the marchers?
Well, at one time there was an F.B.I. Agent there.
Was this the first time you recall discussion?



I don’t recall —  recall the first time; I don’t think it was 
the first time.
Do you recall any other person present at that time?
Frankly, I don’t.
What instructions were you given by Colonel Lingo at that 
meeting with respect to handling the marchers?
Well, it was just that -- the same thing, that if we stopped 
them that we would —  and they lay down, we were going to 
disperse them with gas.
I think you testified that was the changed order, and this 
change took place on Saturday, I believe you said?
Well, there was —  there was a lot of discussion back and forth 
at different times, as to what method to use in the event they 
did this or did that, so when the actual final plan come down 
was on a on a Friday, I believe, late Friday afternoon.
Now, do you mean the —  as I understand it, there were two plane 
is that right? One plan was tc let them go and block off the 
highway; that is what you testified to; is that correct?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
And then later the plan was changed?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Who changed the plan?
Colonel Lingo changed it to me.
Now, what did jrou do in order to carry out the changed plan? 
There was no change in instructions to the men, because I hadn’t

21,



25

sent those particular men into Selma at that time.
Now, were there any written instructions at all?
None,

You received, no written .̂ns cruet ions, and. you gave no written 
instructions?
No, not to my knowledge.
N-j-d you. give &ny .miscructions with respect to bringing an-'r cas
to Selma?
Yes.
To whom did you give those instructions, and when? 
i told Lieutenant Milner to bring some gas, I believe I told him 
to do it, and I told Gaptar.n Miller out of Birmingham for his 
man that he sent in charge of his detail to bring some, and there
was already some here.
Now, I direct your attention to the Sunda\r afternoon, the dav 
of the march; approximately what time did you arrive at the 
point where the marchers were subsequently stopped?
I think we put our men out there about twelve thirty.
Now, at what time did you see Sheriff Clark arrive?
Just shortly after we got out there, shortly before the marchers 
showed up.
Did you have any conversation with Sheriff Clark, other than wha
you have already testified to
No.

c

—  with respect to handling the situation?



26

A Wo.
Q Now, at what time, if at all, did Colonel Lingo arrive at the 

scene?
A It was before —  I don’t know what time he arrived, but it was 

before the marchers got in sight anywhere at all.
Q Do you know exactly where he was?
A Most of the time I do.
Q Was he in an automobile?
A He was sitting in his automobile.
Q And where was it parked?
A Right directly across from where the —  where my car was stopped
Q Now, did you have any conversation with Colonel Lingo after he

arrived?
A Only twice that I recall; I wouldn’t pin it down to exactly.
Q And v/here did these conferences occur?
A One was he called -- called -- I believe he called on the P.A. 

system of his car to —  telling me where to put the news men, 
which I had already picked out a place to put them; and the othei 
one was right along the line of these people that were laying 
down.

Q Mow, you had a conversation with him right at the line?
A Yes.
Q Was that before or after gas had been used?
A Before the gas was used.
Q What —  did he at that time command you to use gas on the



27

marchers?
A Not at that time.
Q Did he at that time command you not to use gas on the marchers?
A Not when we -- I am speaking about when we first met together

on the line.
Q Yes, sir?
A No. Yeah, he did; he told me —  I asked him if he was —  if we 

was ready to use the gas, and he said, "Just hold it a minute. ' 1

Q How was Colonel Lingo dressed on that day? Was he in uniform 
or plain dress?

A Plain dress, with a rain coat of a type.
Q And 3>-ou say prior to the time that the gas was discharged Colonel

Lingo told you to hold it a minute?
A Yeah.
W Now, did he ever tell jrou to release the gas?
A He gave me the order.
Q Colonel Lingo gave you orders to release the gas?
A To order it used.
Q Now, was that before or was that after Sheriff Clark had 

discharged some gas?
I believe that it was after Sheriff Clark had accidentally 
discharged this gas.

Q Now, did Sheriff Clark discharge his gas before or after the 
arrival of the marchers?

A After.



28

Q The marchers were present?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And the Sheriff had already asked you whether or not you wanted 

him to stop the marchers?
A That’s right.
Q And you told him no?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q How many canisters of gas had Sheriff Clark had?
A I have no idea of -- of —  the only thing that I saw that he had 

was a —  a sprayer type thing.
Q Did he have a bag with some gas in it?
A I —  I didn’t see it.
Q Describe for us the sprayer type thing that you are referring to 

that contained gas?
A I didn’t —  I didn’t look at it; it looks like a small oxygen 

tank of some sort, the best that I remember.
Q Now, \vas that any gas dispensed or issued by your Department?
A No.
Q Do you know where he received that type gas from?
A No.
Q Had you had any conference with Sheriff Clark with respect to 

using that type gas that he had?
A Not my best recollection.
Q Do you know what type gas he had?
A No.



Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q
A

Q
A
Q

29

Novi, I think you testified earlier on direct 
the —  the -- the discharge of the gas was a 
occurrence —
Yes.

examination that 
somewhat spontaneou

-- is that right?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Now, I understand you to change your testimony to the effect 
that Colonel Lingo commanded you to give the order to use the
gas —
That’s right.
-- is that right?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Now, which one of those is correct?
They are both correct. When —  when the Colonel told me to use 
the gas, I couldn’t make them hear up the line where this gas 
was, and about that time it started off; I never called out to 
use gas. I did pull my cap off, making a kind of a waving 
motion, but -- but by the time that I had it off, the gas was 
coming down the line.
All right, now —
I was attempting to give the order.
As a matter of fact, there was a prearranged signal —
No.
—  on your part that when you take your cap off they were 
supposed to discharge the gas?

A



30

No.
Then why would you just take your cap off?
Well --
What was that supposed to mean?
I assumed that they would be watching me for a signal, but by 
the time I got it off the gas was coming.
So before you gave Colonel Lingo’s order, someone had already 
started using the gas?
That’s right.
Would it be a fair statement to say that you really had a mass 
of confusion there with the use of that gas at that time?
I don’t really think so.
Would you say that the use of the gas prior to the time you had 
given the order was a violation of rules and regulations?
It was --

MR. SMITH: We object.
MR. KOHN: We object to the form of that question.
THE COURT: Overrule.

It would as you say be a violation, but they gave it right at the 
time that I was in the process of attempting to give the order.
So —
I was attempting to give the order to use it whenever it went off, 
And this is at the time when these people were down in a position 
as if they were praying?
They wasn’t praying.



31

Q They were in a prayerful position, weren’t they?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And at that point, had anyone attempted to attack an officer or 

strike him?
A Now, that I don’t know.
Q You were -- how far Mere you from the marchers?
A Well, when -- when I first stopped them, they must have been

as —  about three fourths of the distance from here to the back 
wall back there, I would say twenty-five foot away from me.

Q And how far were they away from the line of State Troopers?
A I would say about twenty feet, because the Troopers were right 

in front of me.
Q Did you have a clear view of the marchers?
A Yes.
Q And did you see any of them have in their hands any instruments 

which appeared to have been any type of weapons?
A A lot of them had things in their hands; what they were I didn’ 

know.
Q Did —  did any ~~
A Some of —
Q Go ahead?
A That’s all.
Q Did any of them appear to have been knives?
A I didn’t see no knives.
Q Clubs?



32

A They had walking sticks.
Q Did you -- 
A Umbrellas.
Q Did you see any of them take the walking sticks or any other 

equipment they had and use it in a menacing manner toward the 
Troopers before the Troopers advanced upon them?

A No.
Q I show you, sir, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 12 for identification, and 

ask you what does that picture portray generally?
A Well, it shows the Troopers when they went into that line.
Q And that was shortly after you had given the orders for them to

disperse?
A That’s right.
Q Does that fair 
A That’s right.

and adequately depict what occurred at that time?

MR. GRAY: We offer this as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 12,
MR. SMITH: No objection.

Q Nov;, sir, will you tell us at what time —
THE COURT: It will be admitted.

Q -- did you order the Troopers to put on their gas masks?
A As the marchers were approaching.
Q That was before any order at all had been given?
A That’s right.
Q I think you testified you didn’t see any of your Troopers strike 

any of the marchers?



33

That’s right.
Did you see any of your Troopers with their clubs in their hand 
in a swinging position?
I saw some of the Troopers with their clubs in an upraised 
position.
Were they given orders to use the clubs in that position?
Their orders, standing orders, are to keep those clubs down.
So the Troopers who had their clubs in a raised position were irt 
violation of rules.and regulations of your Department; is that 
right?
That’s right.
I show you Intervenor’s Exhibit 3, picture number B-218; explain 
to us what that photo depicts, please? Are those Highway 
Patrols in that picture?
That’s right; some of them —
State Troopers?
Some of them are.
Will you tell us what the one on the right appears to be doing? 
He looks like he is pushing her.
Pushing who?
This girl.
With a club?
With a club.
Did you see that?
No.



34

Q Did you see any of the events where State Troopers were pushing 
or jabbing or striking any of the marchers? 

j A l saw no event where a State Trooper was striking a marcher.
Q Now. Major, there lias been a great deal of discussion about the 

conduct on the part of State Troopers since this incident 
occurred on March 7; will you tell us whether or not you have 
initiated an investigation to determine whether your Troopers 
may have used an excessive amount of force?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain it to that question.

Q Did you make any investigation at all as to the events which 
occurred on March 7?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to that.
MR. KOHN: Object to that question.
THE COURT: I will permit him to answer it. I am not

going to let him go into it, but as to whether or not he made an 
investigation, he can answer it.
A The only —  as to whether or not I did?

THE COURT: He asked you if you made an investigation
concerning the events of March 7?
A I made —  I had one investigation made.
Q What was the nature —  I don’t want the details, but what was 

the nature of the investigation?
MR. SMITH: We object to that question.
THE COURT: Generally, just generally; overrule.



35

To see if any of our Troopers were hit or struck, themselves, 
or met any form of resistance.
Now, did you have any —  any investigation made to determine 
whether any of the marchers were struck or hit?
I havenTt yet.
You haven’t yet?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Approximately, Major, how long was this line at the time it was 
stopped and you gave the order to disperse?
You mean the -- 
The marchers?
The marchers?
Yes, sir?
It was, I would say, a quarter of a mile long, a tenth of a 
mile, or something of that --
And I think your testimony was to the effect that your Troopers 
who were farthest toward Selma could not hear all of your 
commands?
They -- before the marchers got there, they could hear my 
command, because I tested the mike to see and asked one man to 
raise his hand, anybody down there If they could hear me, and 
they raised their hand.
And I —  I believe the gas that was distributed, it was rolled 
in from the side of the marchers all along the way, wasn’t it? 
That’s right.



36

Q Over a period of approximately a quarter of a mile?
A I don’t know how far down it went.

| Q But you could see the smoke from the gas quite a piece down the 
highway?

A That’s right.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to that, your honor;

vour honor, he is leading the witness.
MR. GRAY: He is not my x^itness.
THE COURT: Overrule; overrule your objection. |

Q And what you really had was gas being roiled in over approximate 
a quarter of a mile; is that right?

A It was gas along there.
Q Are you familiar, sir, with the brand of gas that was used, and 

the types of gas -- 
A You --
Q —  that was —  were used on this occasion?
A You mean the -- you mean as to the reaction or the brand name or

what ?
Q The brand names?
A I believe it is Federal gas, I am not —  I am not positive about 

it.
Q Are you familiar with the chemical contents 
A No.
Q —  of the gas?
A (Shook head to indicate negative reply)



37

Q Did you have an investigator or a cameraman on the scene making 
pictures of what occurred?

A I didn’t.
Q Who was that cameraman?
A I say I did not have, myself, have anybody under my command 

making pictures.
Q Was there any person from the State Department of Public Safety 

making pictures as far as you know?
A As far as I know, there was.
Q And who was that person?
A Well, one of them was Roy Smith, Trooper Roy Smith.
Q Did you see him near the head of the line?
A I didn’t.
Q Did you see him at any time during the time you were there on 

Sunday afternoon?
A No, I didn’t.
Q Do you know whether or not he did make movies and pictures of 

the occurrence?
A I understand that he did.
Q Do you know where those films are?
A I have no idea.
Q Have you seen them?
A I have not.
Q Do you know any -- whether anyone in your Department has seen 

those films?



33

A To my knowledge, I haven’t —  I don’t.
I Q I show you, sir, Intervener’s Exhibit 3, picture number B-213, 

and ask you whether or not that picture was made immediately 
prior to the time the gas was released?

| A I would say in my best judgment it was.
I Q And then I show you the next picture, which is B-21/+, and tell 

us whether or not that shows gas being dispersed?
A It does.

MR. KOHN: Let me borrow that a minute.
MR. GRAY: All right. That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Smith.

GROSS EXAMINATION:
BY MR. SMITH:

Q
A
Q

Were you in Selma between February 3 and March 7 of this year?
To the best of my recollection, I was part of the time.
About how many times have you been over there during this period

A During --- from the 3rd —
Q 3rd of February to March 7?
A That I don’t remember, I
Q Have you observed any of the demonstrations in and around the 

Dallas County Court House?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A Numerous of them.
Q Numerous of them?



39

A
Q

A

Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A

Q
A

Since this thing started.
How much time elapsed between your order of dispersal to the 
crowd on Sunday, March 7, and the time that the Troopers marche 
into the crowd?
To -- to the best of my ability of estimating time, it was a 
full two minutes.
During the interval of time which elapsed between the order, 
did any of the marchers disperse?
No.
Did they make any objection?
None whatsoever.
Did they do anything?
They stood —  just stood.
They stood?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
When did they kneel?
After we attempted to turn them, and had this initial physical 
contact with them, they dropped to the ground.
What did you tell the marchers in your dispersal order?
I told them, to the best of my recollection, I told them that -- 
first told them to stop right where they were, and after they 
stopped I told them that this march would not continue, that it 
was not conducive to the saxety of tnem nor tne motoring public, 
anyone using that highway, and that it was xherej-ore an unlawxul 
assembly, and they must disperse and go home or back to their



40

Q
A1\

Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q

A
Q

A
Q

church.
Did any of them say anything in reply to your order?
One man -- I donTt knoxv who he was —  was saying he wanted to 
talk to me, and a —  and that is the only thing that I heard any 
of them say.
Prior to Sunday, March 7, to your knowledge, did any leader of 
the proposed marchers submit to you or to anybody in the Alabam 
Department of Public Safety any proposed plan of march from Selrja 
to Montgomery?
Not to my knowledge.
None whatsoever?
None whats oever.
Was any discussion had, to your knowledge, between any member 
of the Alabama Department of Public Safety and anyone of the 
proposed marchers or their leaders?
No.
At the time you gave the order of dispersal, did you know how 
many persons would participate in the extended march from Selma 
t o Montgomery?
Would you repeat that?
At the time you gave the order of dispersal on Sunday, March 7, 
did you know how many people would participate in the march from 
Selma to Montgomery?
I had no idea; I assumed it was the bunch that came there.
Did you know on which side of the highway they would walk or



41

A
Q

A
Q

A
Q

A

Q

A
Q

A
Q

A

BY

march?
No, sir.
Did you know in what manner they would march, whether single 
file, two abreast, three abreast, or four abreast?
Ho, sir.
Did you know whether or not they proposed to march in the day 
time and night time?
No; no, sir; I had no idea.
Did you know what proposed sanitation facilities they intended 
to use?
I didn’t know; I —  on the way over there that Saturday afternoon 
I -- I saw some of these portable toilets on a truck going in 
that direction, and I later saw them parked at the church.
Did you know the duration of the proposed march; that is, how 
long it would last?
Hot exactly; no, sir.
Did you know what route they proposed to use when they entered 
the City of Montgomery?
Ho, sir.
Did you know whether or not the proposed marchers planned to 
walk in the highway or not?
No, sir.

MR. SMITH; l have no further questions. 
THE COURT; Mr. Kohn.

MR. KOHN;
Q Major Cloud, if one of 3/our men had a club in his hand on this



42

occasion and thought that he was about to be attacked, x\rouldn’t 
it be within your rules to let him raise that club?

A Yes, sir.
MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT: He has already answered: I will let it

stay in.
Q You had no authority and exercised no control over any law 

enforcement officers on the occasion of March 7, 1?65, but 
State Troopers and members of the Department of Safety —  Publi|c 
Safety; is that correct?

A That’s all.
Q Now, I believe you were asked about investigations concerning 

whether any of the marchers were injured; that would not be und 
your direct department, would it?

A No, sir.
Q Do you know, on your own knowledge or has it been reported to 

you, how many of your Troopers were injured on this occasion, 
March 7, 1965?

A There was a report submitted to me of —  listing names of ones 
that were injured and were —  met some sort of —  form of 
resistance.

Q Would you tell us, if you recall, if you remember, how many?
A I believe --

MR. GRAY: Your honor, we object.
MR. KOHN: You brought it out on direct examination,



THE COURT: As to the report that he received —
MR. NABRIT: Object.
THE COURT: As to the report that he received

! concerning the injuries to his men, I will permit him to answer it.
| Q All right?
A This report did not show the exact nature of injuries or anything

all it listed was names of Troopers that had been hit or met 
physical resistance, or pushed or shoved.

Q Then IT11 ask you if you know the number?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A Thirteen.
Q Thirteen?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q Now, Major Cloud, an umbrella, a walking stick, a CLANE —  a 

cane could become a very dangerous weapon, couldn’t it?
MR. GREENBERG: Object.
THE COURT: Well, I will take notice of that,
MR. KOHN: Sir?
THE COURT: I will take notice of that; we don’t neei

any testimony on that.
MR. KOHN: All right.

Q And I believe you testified that you did see numerous walking 
canes and umbrellas in this crowd?

43

A Yes, sir.



44

Q And isn’t it a fact -- I submit it to you as a fact and ask you 
to affirm it or deny it —  that this crowd, that substantially 
all of them, had some kind of bundle or bag with them?

A Yes, sir.
MR. KOHN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Doar.
MR. DOAR: Your honor, after I finished ~~
MR. McLEAN PITTS: I would like to ask him a few

questions.
THE COURT: Excuse me; excuse me, Mr, Pitts.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: For Mr. Clark, please, sir.

BY MR. McLEAN PITTS:
Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A
Q

Major Cloud, you say that you saw some of the State of the 
Sheriff’s Posse east of the bridge; is that correct?
Yes, sir.
Were those was that the Mounted Posse?
Yes, sir.
Did you see any on foot?
No, sir.
And you say the Sheriff was over there?
Yes, sir.
And you mentioned that he -- that there was a spray of tear gas 
released; is that different from a canister?
Yes, sir.
And what type of equipment is what is that: just explain the t



to the court?
I have never —  I have never actually seen one.
Does it —  can it be shut off and put on?
Yes, sir.
Shut off and put on?
Yes, sir.
And was it immediately shut off?
Yes, sir.
And do you know where Sheriff Clark was at the time? 
When that went off?
Yes, sir?
Yes, sir.
Where was he?
I in a general area I -- I know: I don’t know the exact spot.
In what general area was he?
Was in the area of where these people were kneeling, because
that was where I was.
And was that sometime before the -- the -- the --- the Troopers 
released anything?
Yes, sir.
Now, did you see anyone receive any ill effects or —  from that 
gas that came out of that?
Mo, sir.
That piece of equipment?
No, sir.



46

Q Nov/, getting back to the tear gas that the Troopers released, 
that is carried in canisters; is that right?

A Yes, sir.
Q And is -- how did they do -- use those canisters; did they just 

-- do you pull a release on them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they throw those, or did they roll them up the highways?
A Just rolled them.
Q And did they roll them on the wind side of these marchers?
A Yes, sir.
Q So that the wind blew the tear gas across; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q As I understand you, there was no explosion or nothing like that 

in the middle of these marchers; is that correct?
A No, sir; the best of my knowledge.
Q Nov/, you have had eighteen years experience in lav/ enforcement —
A Yes, sir.
Q —  is that correct? Have you in this experience that you have ie 

as law enforcement officer, have you heard of the use of horses 
or mounted posse?

A Yes, sir.
Q Is that an effective method in handling crowds?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know of law enforcement agencies that use horses?
A Yes, sir.



47

Q Are there some in this State other than Sheriff Clark?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you —  you had no agreement with Sheriff Clark prior to this 

march other than the fact that he appeared on the scene, as I 
understand you, after you arrived in Selma on that —  after you 
arrived at the point in Selma and asked you if he —  if you want< 
him to stop them; is that right?

A You say did I have any other
Q Yes?
A -- kind of agreement with him?
Q Yes; uh, huh?
A Yes, sir; I had one other agreement with him.
Q What was the agreement?
A Pie asked me after —  after he had asked me -- I believe it 

happened -- it occurred after he asked me if I wanted him to 
stop them, and I told him no, I had seen this Posse, Mounted 
Posse, on the -- I say the south side of the highway, and 
between two buildings, and the Sheriff asked me what I thought 
about moving half of his Posse over on the other side of the 
street, and I told him that would be all right.

Q That is the only other agreement you had with him?
A As far as I can remember; yes, sir.
Q All right, now, you mentioned Mr. L. C. Crocker, who is the 

Chief Deputy Sheriff?
A Yes, sir.



4u

Q

A
Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q

A

As a matter of fact, now, when you arrived —  you arrived 
Saturday in Selma, on the Saturday before; is that correct?
Yes, sir.
As a matter of fact, when you arrived in Selma, you found that 
the Sheriff wasnTt even in Selma; is that correct?
I knew he wasn’t.
You knew he wasn’t?
Yes, sir.
And you had -- so you had your conference with Deputy Sheriff —  
Chief Deputy Crocker; is that correct?
Yes, sir.
What agreement did you have with him relative to this situation 
on Sunday?
Prior to going over there, the Colonel had told me to contact 
the Sheriff’s office and the City office, and when I contacted 
Chief Crocker, Captain Moore, the local District Captain, was 
with me. We went into Chief Crocker’s office and asked him if 
he —  I believe we asked him, I —  we might not have asked him,
he might have volunteered, but —  i don’t know, but anyway we 
got together, and he told me where he was -- had was having 
his men staked out .just in the event that they were actually 
needed. We went over to the City office, over to the Mayor’s 
office; Wilson Baker met with us, with Crocker and myself and 
Captain Moore, and I believe the Mayor; and —  and Crocker told
Wilson asked Crocker where where he would have the men in



49

|i Q

Q

A
Q
A
Q
A

the -- on the City side, and Crocker told him where they would 
be. I don’t recall where he said he would have them, but he 
told Wilson that they would only be used if the City requested 
them.
And that -- that was the only agreements that was entered into 
between the Patrol and the State Troopers and the Sheriffs and 
the City; is that right?
Yes, sir; he had told me where to —  told me, but I didn’t 
understand where —  where they were going to be staked out.
All right, sir; now, and that conducive of good law enforce­
ment, and you coming in as a Major with the State Troopers, it 
was important for you to contact the two law enforcement agenci 
that would be involved —
Yes, sir.

3

-- other than State Troopers -- 
Yes, sir.
—  is that correct? And know what their plans were? 
That’s right, sir.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Doar.
MR. DOAR: Your honor —  your honor, during the last

examination Mr. Kohn handed me the other exhibits, and I would like 
to —  that were omitted from Exhibit 11; I would like to have them 
marked and offered, and then I want to ask the witness one question 
about some of the pictures.



50

THE COURT: All right, let them be given a number.
THE CLERK: Plaintiff-Intervenor»s Exhibit number 14
MR. McLEAN PITTS: I would like to see —  let me see

those, please, sir.
THE COURT: All right, letTs take a ten minute recess
(At which time, 10:57 a.m., a recess was had untilI

11:0? a.m., at which time the hearing continued)
MR. McLEAN PITTS: May it please the court, may I

ask Major Cloud one more question?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q (by Mr. McLean Pitts) Major Cloud, after the first movement
against this group of marchers, did you walk —  did you leave 
your position and go down the line?

A Yes, sir.
Q Was Colonel Lingo with you?
A Yes, sir; part of the way.
Q How far did you go down the line?
A Well, we must have went two thirds of the way to the end of the

line.
Q What were the marchers doing then?
A They were --- they were huddled together, some of them putting

handkerchiefs over their face, one woman when they first got 
in this huddle, one woman at the front of the line, I heard her 
say, "Put your handkerchief over your face."
Had —  had you given any order at that time to release tear gasQ *?



51

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A

Q

Q
A
Q
A
Q

No, sir.
Had any tear gas been released at that time?
No. sir.
And had you told them you were going to use tear gas?
No, sir.
Now, as you walked back down the line, was —  you say Colonel 
Lingo was with you?
Yes, sir.
Did he give you any orders along there?
Not -- at that time he said it wasn’t ready to use the gas. 
Now, did you say anything to the marchers as you were walking 
down the line?
Yes, sir.
What did you say to them?
I had my mask on, but I took it off, and I told them all along 
the line that —  that this was an unlawful assembly, for them 
to get up and go back to their home or to their church.
As you were walking along the line -- 
Yes, sir.
-- is that correct?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Did they obey your order?
No, sir.
Did you have to walk back to your -- about how far was it from 
the rear end of the line back to your position where you



confronted them?
Well, I was about half way.
And about what was the distance?
I --- I v/ould say five hundred feet.
And did you go all the way back to your position where you had 
lirst confronted them before you give orders to release tear gas 
No, sir.
Where did you give your orders?
Well, actually, no order was ever given, but it would have been 
given when I was in about that position.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir. That’s all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION:

MR. DOAR:
Major Cloud, would you look at one of the pictures in Exhibit 
number —  ivhat is the last Exhibit, 14 —  Intervener’s Exhibit 
number 14, it is marked 843, and I am calling your attention to 
the lower picture in the middle, and there is a man there in a 
rain coat; will you identify that person for me?
I couldn’t positively identify him.
Well, does it —  could you give me your judgment whether or not 
that is Colonel Lingo?
Well, he’s dressed similar to the way the Colonel was dressed 
that day.
Colonel Lingo had a white rain coat and a black hat?
Yes, sir.



Q And he was -- this man has got a white rain coat and a black hat 
A Yes, sir.
| Q Another picture which is in Plaintiffs’ Exhibit number —  

Intervenor’s Exhibit number 11, it is marked picture £>52; 
directing y o u r attention to the picture in the lower left, with'
a man there; can â ou identify that person?

A Not positively; no, sir.
! Q Was Colonel Lingo along the line where the gas was when the gas 

was being dispersed?
| A When it started off; yes, sir.
I Q He was right down there?
A With me.
Q Were —  were you right there, too?
A This —  this looks like the gas has already been dispersed.
Q What did Colonel Lingo do after the gas was dispersed?
A That I don’t know.
Q You don’t know?
A No, sir.

MR. DOAR: That’s all the questions I have.

BY MR. GRAY:
Q Major, did your Department have any of the leaders of the march 

under surveillance prior to the date oi the march?
A I don’t —  I don’t know, for myself, positively of it; I would 

assume that they did.
Q Beg your pardon?



don’t know positivelyI say I would assume that they did, but I 
And if the radio log would so indicate or report in Intervenor’k 
Exhibit 14, I believe, 12, then you would believe that that is 
true ?
If the radio log shows it, I would.
Now, would it be fair to say that the dispersing of the marchers 
on that day was a joint effort on the part of the Alabama State 
Troopers and the Clark Sheriff’s deputies and Sheriff Clark’s 
Posse?

MR. GAYLE: 
THE COURT: 
MR. GAYLE: 
THE COURT:

I object to that, may it please your hone 
Overrule.
I beg your pardon, sir?
Overrule your objection; you can answer

As it being a joint effort, it was our responsibility to dispers 
them; and if they joined in, then it was a joint effort of 
dispersing them.
They did join in?
Evidently.
And on several occasions you had discussions with Sheriff Clark, 
and he asked you about moving his Posse in various places?
Yes, sir.
And you had -- you had talked with the City officials about 
where their men would be. Now, tell us —  tell us, sir, how 
far did the State Troopers pursue the marchers back toward Selma.



55

To my knowledge, only to the bridge.
All right, now, when they got to the bridge, who then began to 
pursue them?
Well, as far as pursuing them, I —  I don’t know; I saw some 
Mounted Posse riding along over the bridge keeping them in —  
in on the sidewalk.
Now, isn’t it a fact. Major, that that was the understanding tĥ i 
the State Troopers would get them back to the bridge, and at 
that point the Mounted Posse would take them on back to the 
church?
Not to my knowledge.
Not to your knowledge?
(Shook head to indicate negative reply)
I think you testified that one of the marchers wanted to talk 
to you; did you permit any speech?
I he told me two or three times that he wanted to talk to me 
and I told him I had no further things to discuss with him, tha1 
it was an unlawful assembly, and they were ordered to disperse 
Now, were your orders to disperse this crowd regardless of the 
number and regardless of the circumstances?
There was no mention made of any number in the crowd.
So the orders were an unconditional order to disperse the 
marchers?
That’s right.
Will you tell us whether or not some of your State Troopers



56

threw smoke bombs into the air over the marchers?
A No, I couldn’t tell you that.
Q Do you know whether or not smoke bombs were used?
A Yes.
Q Do 3̂ ou know how they were used?
A I know how they were supposed to have been used.
Q And how was that?
A By rolling it on the road.

MR. GRAY: That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Smith.
MR. SMITH: No, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Kohn.
MR. KOHN: No, sir.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor, wait just one minute.

That’s all.
THE COURT: Any further questions from this witness,

gentlemen? Any of you? You can be excused from the witness stand. 
(END OF TESTIMONY CONTAINED IN THIS TRANSCRIPT)
»,> .|\ *'i> 'i'o' 'i' 'i't' •'r *̂r /i''r ^''i'

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 
NORTHERN DIVISION
I, Glynn Henderson, Official Court Reporter of the United States 
District Court for the Middle District of Alabama, do hereby 
certify that the foregoing 56 pages contain a true and correct 
transcript of proceedings had before the said Court held In



57

the City of Montgomery, Alabama, in the matter therein stated, 
or that portion of said proceedings indicated in note on page 2 
thereof.
In testimony whereof I hereunto set my hand on this the 29th day 
of March, 1965.



£VJ->« JLJ.LV L-iLJ U .

A 3 - 1 7 - 6 5  8 : 1 5  P . M
T o n s  No. U 8M  288

Edition 4-22-56

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT
H o s e a  W i l l i a m s  e t  a l

ZHntteb &tate* of America,
SOUTHERN D is t r ic t  o p  ALA-dAMA

M - A la - N  C i v i l  A c t io n  No 2 1 0 1 -N  

I  h e re b y  c e r t i fy  an d  re tu r n  th a t  I  served th e  an n exed  W r i t  o f  I n j u n c t i o n ___________
(W rit)

on  M iixM iB nan6m im Bdx.-.M cljl£ a n ..^ i. tA a » .A ltc a :n g y .-X o r . .J -3 . i la j3 - . jJ Q u n ty x ..A l_ a b a a a ________
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

vs:
s s : H o n . G e o rg e  C . W a l la c e  e t  a l

b y  h a n d in g  to  a n d  le a v in g  a  tru e  an d  c o rre c t copy th e re o f w ith  ..

(Individual or agent o f company, corporation, etc.)

p ers o n a lly  a t __C i t jL B a n k _________________________________________________________________________
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

a t _______________ S e lm a ,____________
(City)

a t  _-.4Q.-0Q_ a. m .-^ p o n c , on t h e ____

A la b a m a ____________________
(State)

l d t h  _ d ay  o f  _______M a rc h

in  th e  said  D is t r ic t

19-65?

M a rs h a l’s fees 3 * 0 0 . .

M ile a g e _________________

T o t a l  -  $  3 . 0 0

__G eor g e  H .  S t u a r t ............ ..
U nited S ta tes  Marshal.

( *
B y  ̂ yy /& ■* >. (<■' •

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING O FFIC E : 1963— 0 - 6 7 3 7 1 6 7/ D ep u ty .

R c . dOBSOM



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  288
Edition 4-22-W

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

®mteb States: of America,
Middle___D is t r ic t  o p  ...

Hosea Williams, et al 
vs.

Hon. George C. Wallace, 
CA-2181-N 
C-1i130

et al

Opinion, Order of Injunction 
I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed & Writ of Injunction_____

(W rit)

on the therein-named__^aury Smithy Attorney__________ ______________
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with .?.? Bowman, Attorney

(Individual or agent o f company, corporation, etc.)

personally at__2.?.k.Federal_Juilding_____________ __________________
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

___  Montgomery, Alabama
(City) (State)

at _i /4 c v i— p. m., on the____A7AA day of___
in the said District 
_, 19.A1.

Marshal’s fees__A3...GQ.
Mileage______A-IVIII

WILLIAM M. PARKER, JR.
U nited S ta tes  M a rsh a l

By JUjJjLzZ*-_____
D ep u ty.

U S . GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE: 1963— 0 - 6 7 3 7 1 6

LtU

>ON



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  282
Edition 4-22-55

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT
CA-2161-N
C4j130

flHmteb States! of America,
Middle___ D is t r ic t  o f  ________

s s :

Hosea Williams, et al Vs:Hon.George 0.Wallace, et al
Opinion,Order of Injunction and

I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed °1 jn!unc t-1-on_______
(W rit)

on the therein-named______________________ ___________
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with__
_____________ __Hon.C-scrgc 0.Wallace_________

(Individual or agent o f company, corporation, etc.)

personally at the Governors Of flee,State Capitol Building________________
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

at___'Montgomery .Alabama
(City)

c.
(State)

at _!£i?0 — p. m., on the  ...1222* day of. March
in the said District 

19.il.

Marshal’s fees _ji3*DCL
Mileage_______«2li_

$3.2l*

...William

U. S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OF/lil 10— 17777-2

M.Parker Jr.
U nited S ta tes  M arshal.

/, D ep u ty . S

oOBSOH



plates (Umtri of JVpp-
F I F T H  C I R C U I T

E D W A R D  W . W A D S W O R T H O F F I C E  O F  T H E  C L E R K R O O M  408 - 400 ROYAL ST. 
N E W  O R L E A N S , LA. 70130

C L E R K

tfarcfa 19, 19&5

WMORAKHM TO COUKSKL OB FAKT1K. LISTED BELOW:
Bo. 22U0U . GEORGE C. WALLACE, as Qorarmr of the »t*t* of

Alabama - vs- HOBSA VIILLIAML, KT AL.

Qeotlamea:
Find enclosed copy of order entered by the Court this date un 

the motion for stay pending appeal, ufoich order is selX-eatplanetory.

Hs&arc. Jack Qreeriben , lionmn Amaiier
a. James, Jr. * Jmmw *. Mohr it, HI 

Mr. John Do&r 
Mr. Fred D. Gray 
V* 6. Attorney 
-'Clark, O. 8, District Comrt 
Mr. A. P. Tuarcraud

Youre truly,



F o r m  N o . U S M  282
Edition 4-22-56

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT
CA-2I81-N
C-I4I3O

SHniteb States! of America, 1 Hosea wJ^Lianis» e t a lss: Vs*
M Ld£Lft______D is t r ic t  o f  . .A la b a m a ........... ....... | H o n .O e o rg e  C . W a l l a c e ,  e t  s i

O p in io n ,O r d e r  o f  I n j u n c t i o n  a n d
I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed _164t._of_5ljmtoU._pn-------

(Writ)

on the therein-named------------- iiugh-̂ iaddox------------------------
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with --

(Individual or agent of company, corporation, etc.)

personally at -------------------
(Address—Street number, apartment number,

rural route, etc.)

at___HQnigs2insâ _.
(City)

Alabama_____
(State)

at _5lL20. a?2fi.— p. m., on the  ..12th.__day of __..l'.'k-?lQh..
.... in the said District
___ , 19i5...

Marshal’s fees___
Mileage________ None.

$3.00

oesohP C



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  282
Edition i-22-65

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

tHmteb States! of America,
Mi.ddxG___D is t r ic t  o f  Alabama

Hosea Williams, et al 
vs.

Hon. Geor-e C. Wallace, 
s s : CA-2181-N

C-iil30
et al

Opinion, Order of Injunction 
I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed Injunct i on______

(W rit)

on the therein-named — _ ^ohn, Jr.____ ________ ________________
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with John P. Kohn, Jr._

(Individual or agent of company, corporation, etc.)

personally at__ 2 ltk 2 Woodley Road___________________________________
(Address—Street number, apartment number,

rural route, etc.)

at_____ Montgomery,
(City)

at -J?- :$0 U U —  r . m., on the
Alabama
17th

(State)

day of___
in the said District
, 19 65.

Marshal’s fees_&LJQQ..
Mileage______ i»Q§

$U.08

WILLIAM M. PARKER, JR.
" " 7 “ --------- U n ited  S ta tes M arshal.

By . .y
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE: 1963— 0 -6 7 3 7 1 6

D epu ty.



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  288
Edition 4-22-65

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

s s :

Hosea Williams, et al 
vs.

Hon. George C. Wallace,et al 
CA-2181-N 'C-iil30

Ooinion, Order of Injunction 
I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed Writ of Injunction....

(W rit)

®mteb &tatea of America,
Middle D is t r ic t  o f  AIsIdshis

on the therein-named__Al-kiHSQ—
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with --AI.Lingo____

(Individual or agent o f company, corporation, etc.)

personally at __Jiulxlla.JaXj&ty..Milding_
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

a£ __Montgomery, Alabama.
(City)

in the said District
(State)

at --U .h L !— p. m., on the__ 1Z.EI?___day of March ----- 19.65

Marshal’s fees__-f-3.;.QP..
Mileage______  '•?}*.

WILLIAM M. PARKER, JR.
____ ---n --- U nited S ta tes  Marshal.

/  j  y  ^ '  j
__  By  ̂ -

- ' '  D ep u ty.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OEPTCE : 1963— O G 7 3 7 1 6

p r r , : niVU. i U!\lVwU J  i ED

R. C. DOBSON
C' FRK



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  282
Edition 4-22-55

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

ftJm'teb £&>tateg o! America,
MIDDLE_____ D is t r ic t  o f  ___

Hosea Williams , et al, 
vs

s s : Honorable George C. Wallace,et al
Order of Injunction 
Opinion

I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed Writ Of Injunction_
( W r i t )

on the therein-named Attorney John Doar, Attorney for the Government,
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with Jli™* John Doar,

(Individual or agent of company, corporation, etc.)

personally at United States Marshal's Office in nerv; Post Office__Bldg.,
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

at Montgomery,
(City)

a t  J l l 20.___ m ., on th e

Alabama
(State)

I Z t h L ___day  o f ____ M a r c h ___________

in the said District 
1 9 . 6 1 .

Marshal’s fees 
Mileage____

William M. Parker Jr.
.&3.QQ

By C *L

U nited S ta tes  M arshal.

y t'. /
U. S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 18— 17777-2

/ D ep u ty.

Rhl ui n aND FILED

Iy] i\R 2 ?i 1255

R. C. DOBSON
r1 cpi/



F o r m  N o . U 8 M  282
Edition 4-22-55

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

tHm'teb States of America,
M ID D L E _____ D is t r ic t  o p  -ALABAMA

ss:
Hosea Williams,et alvs CA-2181-N
Honorable George C. Wallace, et al,

Order of Injunction Oô nion
I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed Writ of Injunction___ ___

(W rit)

on the therein-named Attorney Fred D. Gray. Attorney for the Plaintiff. _
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with him, Fred D. Gray,

(Individual or agrent o f company, corporation, etc.)

personally at United States Marshal's office in new Post Office Bldg..____
(Address— Street number, apartment number,

rural route, etc.)

a t________Montgomery,___
(City)

at .5.-.15.— M$K.—p. m., on the

______ Alabama
(State)

IZtix... day of Mar ail
in the said District 

1965....

Marshal’s fees 
Mileage____

J lJ.QO
william M. Parker Jr.

U nited S ta tes  M arshal. 

-  /By _i'--
D epu ty.

U. S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPFICE l f l ---17777-2

DPTfitiuKr-i

R C. DOBSON
c :.ipk



F o r m  N o . TJ8M  282
E d i t i o n  4 - W - M

K K U ti  ' 'K U  U S  JM A K .Srttt.U i, LiJC iU i'irt,

ALA -17-65 8:15 P.M.

RETURN ON SERVICE OF WRIT

®toiteb &>tate* of America,
SOUTHERN D is t r ic t  op ALABAMA

Ho sea Williams et al 
vs:

Hon. George G. Wallace et al 
M-Ala-N Civil Action No 2181-N

I hereby certify and return that I served the annexed ..KDit_ ol. ._I n J.V.Uc t j. on
(W rit)

on the therein-named ...__sJme.a__-GL..--CJ.ark,...as..Sh.erifi,...Qf_-DJaLlas...C.Qunty.̂..
(Individual, company, corporation, etc.)

by handing to and leaving a true and correct copy thereof with — Cj£rkjL Sheriff

(Individual or agent o f company, corporation, etc.)

personally at_the .County Jail, Dallas County. .Alabama
(Address—Street number, apartment number.

rural route, etc.)

at. ______S e l m a , .... .
(City)

at_.Qj.k5- _aaamc— p. m., on the ....

Marshal’s fees_2 .iQ 9 .--------
Mileage____ kQ« §0_---------

Alabama ..... in the said District
(State)

Hay of March __ , 19 6S

George h . Stuart
j i 1 U nited S ta tes Marshal.

By__- L ■ tA. t j  i -* t
D ep u ty.

Total - $ U0.80 U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE: 1 9 6 3 - 0 - 6 7 3 7 1 6

RETURNED AND FILED

R C. DOBSON
CLERK



Hosea Williams, John Lewis )and Amelia Boynton, on behalf )of themselves and others ) .similarly situated, ) Civil Action
Plaintiffs, ) No. 2181-N.

United States of America, )
Plaintiff-Intervenor, )

Honorable George C. Wallace, as )
Governor'of the State of Alabama; j
A1 Lingo, as Director of Public |
Safety for the State of Alabama; )
and James G. Clark, as-Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama, )

Defendants. )

(MEMORANDUM TRANSCRIPT: This memorandum_transcript contains
interrogation by the Court of the witness,A1 Lingo, at 
conclusion of examination by counsel of said witness during 
hearing held in above case before Hon. Frank M. Johnson,' 
Jr., Judge, at Montgomery, Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-10,
1965.)

THE COURT: Any further questions by you gentlemen?

Any from you?
MR. KOHN: No further questions, your honor.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a few questions, please,

sir. Colonel, let’s direct your attention to Tuesday, March 9; what
time did you go to Selma that day?

WITNESS: I got there, I guess, approximately one
>o’clock.

THE COURT: And I believe that you told the lawyers
that you had the same instructions that day from the Governor to stop the

march?
WITNESS: That is correct, sir; yes, sir.
THE COURT: And you got there about when?
WITNESS: Approximately one o’clock, I believe.



WITNESS: Yes, sir; p.m.
THE COURT: Did you have an opportunity to and did

you talk with Governor Leroy Collins that day on the 9th?
WITNESS: Yes, sir. I did; yes, sir; I talked to

Governor Collins.
THE COURT: And was he in Selma, according to your

understanding, as the Presidents representative on the Committee for 
Community Service?

WITNESS: I did have that understanding; yes, sir.
THE COURT: What was the nature of your conversation,

generally, with Governor Collins concerning the proposed march for 
Tuesday, the 9th?

WITNESS: Governor Collins came to me with Sheriff
Clark, and he says, "What these demonstrators want to do is march down 
and be confronted by the —  the Troopers and sing and pray and return to 
the church. Will you permit that?" I said, "Yes, I will”—  said, "I 
will even protect them on their way there, I will see that nobody harms 
them.”

THE COURT: All right. All right, and was it your
understanding that he went back, that he relayed your message to Dr. King

WITNESS: I assume he did; yes, sir. I also told
Governor Collins that, "All that will be agreeable, but there would be 
no march on the highways from Selma to Montgomery."

THE COURT: All right, and I believe you had your —
your Troopers at approximately the same place on the 9th that they were 
on the 7th?

WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
THE COURT: And do you know who furnished Governor

Collins, if anyone, with this map?
WITNESS: No, sir; I have never seen that map before.

THE COURT: And that is p.m.?



WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: —  they were to march?
WITNESS: I know nothing about the map.
THE COURT: All right. You don’t know, then, where

Reverend King obtained this map —
WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: —  that he testified about?
WITNESS: No, sir; I have never seen the map before.
THE COURT: All right, then is it fair to say that

your testimony on that point up to now is that you agreed with Governor 
Collins, as the President’s representative, that if the Negroes wanted to 
march down to where your Troopers were and —  and pray and sing and turn 
around and return, that was satisfactory on the 9th; is that correct?

WITNESS: Now, I didn’t agree that —  that he was not
in violation of your court order; I didn’t agree to that.

THE COURT: Yeah, that is one of the reasons I am
asking the question?

WITNESS: Yes, sir; I did not agree to that, and I
made no deal whatsoever —

THE COURT: What I am interested in is you just
answering my questions —

WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: —  I will interpret the court order.
WITNESS: Yes, sir; I am sorry.
THE COURT: Was it your understanding with Governor

Collins that Dr. King and a group of Negroes were to march on the 9th 
down to where your Troopers were —

WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: —  turn around after they sang and prayed

THE COURT: All right, as to the proposed route —

and go back to Selma?



WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
THE COURT: All right, is that what they did?
WITNESS: Is that —  that is what they did; yes, sir.
THE COURT: You heard the testimony that you moved

your Troopers before the Negroes turned and went back, and that you moved 
your cars; is that correct?

WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
THE COURT: And they were still there when you moved

your cars?
WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
THE COURT: And then they turned and went back without

your Troopers being there?
WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
THE COURT: Then if you stopped them that day, you

stopped them by agreement, did you not? Because you moved your physical 
force —

WITNESS: That’s right; I moved --
THE COURT: —  before they went back?
WITNESS: I moved the physical force; that is

correct.
THE COURT: Then if you stopped them that day, they

were stopped by agreement that was conveyed to them from you to 
Governor Collins; is that not right?

WITNESS: Well, the agreement I made with Governor
Collins; yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right.
WITNESS: Would you like for me —
THE COURT: And they turned around and went back on

their own after you moved your Troopers and moved your cars?
WITNESS: ThatTs right.
THE COURT: And they didn’t attempt to march on to



Montgomery?

yards from the River Bridge there in the city limits of Selma?
WITNESS: Not the city limits; in the police

jurisdiction.

WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: And you were still two or three hundred

THE COURT: How far from the Edmund Pettus Bridge
were you?

WITNESS: I would say about a quarter of a mile,
approximately a quarter of a mile.

THE COURT: Now, did anything else about this
agreement or understanding, whatever you want to call it, that you had 
with Governor Collins —  you started to say something a few minutes ago 
and I cut you off?

WITNESS: Yes, sir; I wanted to tell you why I
moved the —  the Troopers out of the road.

THE COURT: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
WITNESS: I think the traffic had been paralyzed long

enough, and I wanted to move my Troopers and let them return to the 
church and open that and let that traffic on through, it was just snarled
up —

THE COURT: Are you saying the traffic could go on
through while the Negro marchers were still there?

WITNESS: No, sir; they could not get through, they
were taking up the whole one lane of the road.

THE COURT: On the 9th?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And was there one lane open for them?
WITNESS: One —  one lane of —
THE COURT: For traffic?
WITNESS: There were four lanes, and one lane was



— o -------

closed by them.

WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: And then after you moved your Troopers,

did the traffic move on in the other two lanes?
WITNESS: No, sir; we had to hold it until they were

_ went on back, because I was afraid we might have trouble until they
got --

THE COURT: All right, all right.
WITNESS: —  cleared of the highways.
THE COURT: All right, now, getting on to —  back to

the 7th, a few questions, please. Who selected the place for the Troopers 
to stop the Negro marchers on the 7th?

WITNESS: I did, Major Cloud and myself.
THE COURT: All right. And what considerations

caused you to select this particular spot?
WITNESS: Well, it was a kind of wide place in the

road there where we could get the people back, they wouldnTt have to be —  
the outsiders wouldn’t be there close up.

THE COURT: Were the outsiders that day present when
you selected the spot?

WITNESS: Sunday they were.
THE COURT: I am talking about Sunday now?
WITNESS: You are talking about Sunday?
THE COURT: Yes, sir?
WITNESS: They were back —  yes, sir; they were not

up to the —  close to the edge of the road; they were back up in the 
buildings and around the side of the buildings.

THE COURT: That the only consideration that caused
you to select that particular spot as opposed to others?

WITNESS: I believe so; yes, sir.

THE COURT: Two lanes open and two lanes closed?



—  I

the outsiders, the whites that were there that you were afraid of?
WITNESS: Well, it worried me after what happened —
THE COURT: I am talking about when you —  when you

were troubled with them in selecting the spot?
WITNESS: Sunday?
THE COURT: Yes, sir?
WITNESS: Yes, sir; I did give it consideration; I

was watching it very close.
THE COURT: Now, is that bridge the only bridge for —

for automobile and pedestrian traffic coming out of Selma toward 
Montgomery?

WITNESS: Yes, sir; it is.
THE COURT: Did you give any consideration to putting

a barricade up at the Selma end of that bridge to stop that march?
WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: And why not?
WITNESS: The Governor wanted to get out on the

highway. Didn’t want to stop —
THE COURT: What?
WITNESS: Didn’t want to stop them in town. He didn’t

want to stop them in town.
THE COURT: Then the Governor had something to do with

you selecting the spot on the 7th?
WITNESS: Well, not necessarily —  yes, sir; he didn’t

want to stop them in town, Decause the white people, see, around those 
buildings, we were afraid we might have trouble; if we could get them on 
out there on the highway and disperse them and gat them back in an
orderly manner, we would have less trouble.

THE COURT: But they had to go across that bridge to

THE COURT: Did you give any consideration to moving

get on the highway?



were on the bridge, when they were on the Broad Street they were on 
highway 80.

THE COURT: Well, it would have been relatively
easy, would it not have, to have barricaded the bridge and stopped the 
march before they went across the only bridge?

WITNESS: We could have done that, but we might have
had trouble with all those white people that were down town. I had 
one lieutenant in charge there who had to back —

THE COURT: Were you afraid of the whites committing

WITNESS: Well, they were on the highway when they

violence?
WITNESS: Yes, sir; I was; I really was. It was —

I got one lieutenant here who could testify he backed off around a 
thousand to fifteen hundred white people, he started to throw gas on 
them.

THE COURT: All right, sir; a few more questions.
I believe the testimony has been up to this point that you and Sheriff 
Clark are on the same radio frequency —  when I say, ,rYou," I mean the 
Alabama Highway Patrol?

WITNESS: Yes, sir; that is correct. And several of
the others —  well, just about all the Sheriffs throughout the State, 
just a few —

THE COURT: That is what I wanted to ask you; are a
majority of the Sheriffs throughout the State on the Alabama Highway 
Patrol frequency?

WITNESS: That is correct, sir; not all of them, but
the majority of them.

THE COURT: Do you know what authority, if any,
Sheriff Clark had for being in Perry County the night that you say he and 
his deputies were over there?

WITNESS: No, sir. I heard him tell somebody he was
there by invitation; I donTt know.



about that
THE COURT: Who did you hear him tell he was there by

invitation?
WITNESS: I really don’t know. I don’t remember.
THE COURT: All right. Then the incident on Tuesday,

March 9 —  getting back to it —  was more or less a play of what had 
been agreed upon beforehand, wasn’t it?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: That is all I want to ask him. You can

step down.
WITNESS: Yes, sir.

(END OF MATTERS COVERED BY THIS MEMORANDUM 
.TRANSCRIPT)

WITNESS: No, sir; I donTt. I havenft talked to him

I hereby certify that the foregoing is a 
full, true, and correct transcript of 
notes taken by me in above matter, or that 
portion thereof indicated in caption on 
page 1 thereof.

Official Court Reporter.



FILED
HONORABLE GEORGE G. WALLACE, as Governor of the State 
of Alabama; AL LINGO, as Director of Public Safety
for the State of Alabama; and OAKES G. CLARK, as 
Sheriff of Dallas County, Alabama,

J

V .

HOGLA WILLIAMS, JOHN LEWIS and AMELIA BOYNTON, on 
behalf of themselves and others similarly situated, 
and UNITED STATES CP AMERICA,

Appellees

On Motion for Stay of Preliminary Injunction Pending 
Appeal from the United States District Court 

for the Middle District of Alabama

Before WOODBURY* and JONES and GEWIN, Circuit Judges 

BY THE COURT:

IT IS ORDERED that the application of the appellants 

for an order staying enforcement of the preliminary injunction 

entered on March 17 by the United States District Court for 

the Middle District of Alabama, wherein the individual ap­

pellees are plaintiffs and the appellants are defendants, 

and the United States is Intervenor, is hereby denied this 

March 19, 1965.

A tru* c . U S ' '  ,7 , v: t 'v, Js ■ 1/ \
L • A i \

r i  • • - ......... . . \it* Cj.^aisj.ana

♦Senior Judge, of the First Circuit, 
sitting by designation



I
I
I



INDEX - Witnesses
Vo

Dir . Crs. Red. Rec.
Plaintiffs* Witnesses

Martin Luther King, Jr. 25 38 104 106
Amelia Platts Boynton 119

136 141 169 170
Hosea Williams 175 204 242 246
Dr. William B. Dinkins 251 256 263 265
Dr. Edward Aldridge Maddox ,266 272

Jr •
John Lewis 286 303 338 341
Early Butler 347 352
Margaret Moore 359 367 384 386
Albert Turner 397 409
Paul Simpson 416 418

United States* Witnesses
A1 Lingo See excerpt transcript
Joseph Mark Avignone 424 ■ 439 450 451
Thomas E. Burns, Jr. 457 459 462
John J. Sweeney 463 465 467 468

James Michael Barko 472 482 501 507

L:
r

13-

P h i  H i p  S .  S n o d g r a s s  
L a u r e n s  W a l t e r  P i e r c e  
R o b e r t  L .  F r y e  
C a r l  G a b e l

F r e d e r i c k  D o u g l a s  R e e s e  
J o h n  C a r t e r  L e w i s

508
510

522
541

See
549

525

545
excerpt
555

54^ 548
t r a n s c r i p t  f i l e d  4 / 2 / 6 5  
556

51.3

544



INDEX - Witnesses (cont*d)
Vot

Dir . Crs. Red. Rec. Red. Rec. Di'
United States* Witnesses (cont’d)

Sallie Bett Rodgers See excerpt transcript filed 4/2/65
George Douglas 557 562 566
Leatha Mae Stover See excerpt transcript filed 4/2 /6 5

Janies Dobynes 567 572 579 530

George C. Wallace’s Witnesses
Alfred C. Harrison 532 537
Arthur P. Villadsen 599606 60S 619 623

61

Rex Thomas 624

A1 Lingo’s Witnesses
A1 Lingo See excerpt transcript filed 3/19/65

James G. Clark’s Witnesses
Stanley Fountain 276 231
Harper Roy Smith 629 650 666 674 679
Asbury Middlebrooks See excerpt transcript filed 3/30/65
R. E. Etheridge 632 689 709

713 725
7p

Charles H. Weber 729 737 740
Grace Thacker 749 752 753 754
James A. Hare See excerpt transcript filed 4/1/65
Thomas L. Pyron 759 764 767 769 770
Billy Mack Bobo 771 774



INDEX - Witnesses (cont»d)
Vo:L:

Dir. Crs. Red. Rec. Red. Rec. Diri
Plaintiffs1 Witnesses in Rebuttal
None.

United States* Witnesses in Rebuttal
John Cloud See excerpt transcript filed 3/29/65

George C. Wallace*s Witnesses in Surrebuttal 
None

A1 Lingo*s Witnesses in Surrebuttal 
None

James G. Clarke Witnesses in Surrebuttal 
None

INDEX - Exhibits
Plaintiffs* Exhibits
. . .  .................... ...I 1 - Photograph.
2 - Photograph.
3 - Photograph.
4 - Photograph.
5 - Photograph.
6 - Photograph.
7 - Photograph.
S - Photograph.
9 - Photograph.
10 - Photograph.



INDEX - Exhibits (cont’d)
i Plaintiffs1 2 Exhibits (corded)
11 - Photograph.
12 - Photograph.
13 - Press release.
14 - Press release.
15 - Route diagram for march March 9, 19 6 5.

United States’ Exhibits
1 - Photographs (36).
2 - Photographs (19).
3 - Photographs (IS).
4 - Photographs (4)•
5 - Photographs (3).
6 - Photographs (3).
7 - Aerial photograph, Selma, Alabama.
S - Movie film.
9 - Registration statistics.
10 - Photograph.
11 - Folder containing defendant Lingo’s records.
12 - Folder containing defendant Clark’s records.
13 - Orders entered by Judge Daniel H. Thomas.
14 - Photographs.

George C. Wallace’s Exhibits
1 - Map of 6th Division, Alabama Highway Department.
2 - List of bridges on U.S. highway SO between Montgomery and

Selma.

A1 Lingo’s Exhibits
None.



INDEX - Exhibits (cont’d)
James G» Clark»s Exhibits
1 - Newspaper photograph.
2 - Photographs.
3 - Photographs.
4 - Photographs.
5 - Photographs.
6 - Photographs.
7 - Photographs.
8 - Photographs.
9 - Photographs.
10 - Photographs.
11 - Photographs.
12 - Photographs.
13 - Photograph.
14 - Photograph.
15 - Order entered by Judge James A. Hare, Feb. 3, 1965.
16 - Order of Judge James A. Hare, given to Sheriff Clark.
17 - Order entered by Judge James A. Hare, July 9, 1964.
18 - NOT ADMITTED - Movie film.
19 - Selma parade statute.



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

NORTHERN DIVISION

Hosea Williams, John Lewis 
and Amelia Boynton, on behalf 
of themselves and others 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
United States of America,

Plaintiff-Intervenor, 
vs

Honorable George C. Wallace, as 
Governor of the State of Alabama;
A1 Lingo, as Director of Public 
Safety for the State of Alabama; 
and James G. Clark, as Sheriff of 
Dallas County, Alabama,

Defendants.

Before Hon. Frank‘M. Johnson, Jr., Judge, at Montgomery, 
Alabama, March 11-12-13-15-16, 19o5»

A p p e a r a n c e s :
' For the Plaintiffs:

For the United States:

Gray & Sea}r
(Fred D. Gray and 
Solomon S. Seay, Jr.), 

Peter A. Hall,
Jack Greenberg,
Norman Amaker,
Charles H. Jones, Jr., 
Oscar W. Adams,
Demetrius C. Newton,
James M. Nabrit, III, 
Charles S. R.alston.
Ben Hardeman,
John Doar,
David Reuben.

Civil Action 
No. 21S1-N.



2

For George C. Wallace: 
(and for A1 Lingo 
3/11-12)

For A1 Lingo:
(from 3/13)

For James G. Clark:

C-oodwyn 8z Smith 
(Maury D. Smith, 
Charles M. Crook, and 
John S. Bowman).

John P. Kohn, Jr.

McLean Pitts,
P. H. Pitts,
J. E. Wilkinson, Jr., 
T. G. Gayle.

(The above-st3^1ed case coming on for hearing at 
Montgomery, Alabama, March 11, 1905. before hon. irank M. Johnson, 
Jr., Judge, the following proceedings were had:)

THE COURT: This is Civil Action 21G1-M, Hosea
Williams and others, as plaintiffs, Un.xted States as plaintiff- 
intervenor, the Honorable George C. Wallace and others, as defendant
Who appears for the plaintiffs?

MR. GRAY: Your honor, I appear for the plaintiffs,
along with the following attorneys; my associate, Solomon S. Seay, 
jack Greenberg, Norman Amaker, Charles Jones, Charles Ralston, of 

New York —
THE COURT: Who?
MR. GRAY: Charles Ralston, R-A-L-S-T-O-N, Peter

A. Hall, of Birmingham, Oscar Adams, of Birmingham, and Demetrius
Newton, of Birmingham.

THE COURT: Each of those lawyers —
MR. GRAY: And James Nabrit, of New York; each is a

member of the Federal Bars, and I move their admission for the



3

purpose of participating in this case.
THE COURT: All right, on that motion each of them

will be admitted for the purpose of participating in this case. On 
behalf of the plaintiff-intervenor, who appears?

MR. DOAR: Your honor, John Doar for the United
States, and Mr. Hardeman, United States Attorney for the Middle 
District of Alabama.

THE COURT: On behalf of the Honorable George C.
Wallace?

MR. SMITH: Your honor, Maury Smith, on behalf of
this defendant, also the defendant, Lingo.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. SMITH: May I seek at this time and respectfully

request permission of the court for permission that Hugh Maddox be 
permitted to sit at counsel table -- he is not appearing as counsel 
of record in the case, not for that purpose —

THE COURT: I understand he is the Governor’s legal

adviser.
MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: He will be permitted to remain at counsel

table.
MR. SMITH: 
THE COURT.

Thank you.
Anyone else appearing for Governor Wallace

and A1 Lingo? On behalf of James G. Clark?
MR. McLSAN PITTS: Your honor, this is McLean Pitts,



ox Selma, P. H. Pitts, of Selma, Hr. J. E. Wilkinson, Jr., of Selma; 
Mr. T. G. Gayle is in the case with us, but he is not present today,

THE COURT: All right. Then, gentlemen, this
hearing was scheduled by order of the court upon the plaintiffs’ 
motion for preliminary injunction and upon the plaintiff-intervenor1, 
motion for preliminary injunction. There has been filed with me, 
or with the Clerk and presented to me as of this morning, a motion 
on behalf of the defendant, Clark, to make the preliminary 
injunction, as it is phrased in the motion —  I take it they mean 
a preliminary restraining order —  permanent.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: That is the preliminary restraining order

that was issued by this court.
M R. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor, it was written very

hurriedly; we don’t take any pride in our authorship of it.
THE COURT: There has also been presented to me —

and unless there is some objection, we will —  we will hear that 
motion at this time, also, along with —  along with the otner 
motions.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir.
THE COURT: There is also presented to me as of this

morning a petition —
MR. GREENBERG: Excuse me, your honor; I am not quits

sure that I understood you. Did you say that you untended go near 
this, along with the other motions, petition to show cause?



5

THE COURT: No, I haven’t gotten to that.
MR. GREENBERG: I am sorry; all right.
THE COURT: The motion of the defendant, Clark, to

make the preliminary restraining order permanent —
MR. GREENBERG: All right.
THE COURT: —  unless there is some objection, we

will hear that.
MR. GREENBERG: Yes, sir; we will hear that.
THE COURT: Now, there is also presented to me a

petition to show cause why Dr. Martin Luther King shouldn’t be 
found guilty of contempt of this court, presented on behalf of the 
defendant, Clarke

MR. McLEAN FITTS: Yes, sir: now, there are other
persons named in that petition, too.

THE COURT: Yes; well, let me say this in that 
regard; that any contempt proceedings or any order to show cause as 
to why an individual or individuals should not be found guilty of cc 
tempt of this court is a matter between the court and the alleged

contemptors.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: (Nodded to indicate affirmative

reply)
THE COURT: It is not a matter between James Clark,

and it is no matter that James Clark, as a litigant, has any intere 
In, so the court will, of its own motion, at this time, without 
regard to whether or not subsequent proceedings may be initiated,



o

upon order of the court and not upon order of Clark, dismiss that 
petition by Clark to shoitf cause. Are there anĵ  other motions to be 
filed?

MR. SMITH: None for the defendants we represent,
your honor, at this time.

THE COURT: And Mr. Greenberg?
MR. GREENBERG: We have filed a motion to dissolve

the temporary restraining order.
THE COURT: Yes, and that motion to dissolve the

temporary restraining order will be heard along with the other 
motions today. Then I take it the defendants, the Honorable George 
C. Wallace, A1 Lingo, and James Clark, join issue in as far as the 
motion for preliminary injunction and motions for dissolution of 
the temporary restraining order; am I correct?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, that is correct.
THE COURT: And the plaintiffs join issue on the

defendant’s, Clark, motion to make the preliminary or temporary 
restraining order permanent?

MR. GREENBERG: That is correct.
THE COURT: All right, then, gentlemen, are we ready

to proceed without any further preliminaries?
MR. GRAY; Yes, sir; subject to our witnesses being

present.
THE COURT: Then call your witnesses.



7

MR. GREENBERG: Just one question, your honor. The
| defendants have subpoenaed a large number of witnesses, and it isj
| possible that some of them have been subpoenaed in connection with 
i the defendantfs motion to find certain parties in contempt. If 
that is true, it would be a convenience if they were released: if 
thejr are here for another purpose, of course, then, they will have 
to stay. ■

THE COURT: Well, since the}r subpoenaed them, it
will be their responsibility, and they have the prerogative to keep 
them or release them.

MR. GREENBERG: We have also filed a memorandum of
points and authorities this morning.

THE COURT: I have that. Call your witnesses,
gentlemen.

MR. SMITH: Excuse me, your honor; in behalf of the
defendants, Wallace and Lingo, we have subpoenaed representatives 
of Associated Press as well as United Press International, and I 
would ask leave of this court, I feel that it is unfair to these 
representatives that they be placed under the rule; I would ask thal 
they be permitted to remain in the court room; I make this motion.

THE COURT: We will get to that point when we call

our witnesses --
MR. SMITH: All right, sir.

—  and when I get ready to put them unde)

the rule
THE COURT:



8

MR. SMITH: All right, sir.
THE COURT: —  if you will designate those that you

want to be relieved, and we will take it up with opposing counsel.
MR. SMITH: All right, sir.
THE COURT: All right, for the plaintiffs, call your

witnesses: as your name is called, if you will, please —
MR. GRAY: W:i 11 i am Jones.
MARSHAL: William Jones, come on around.
THE COURT: —  answer and come around to the place

designated by the Marshal.
MR. GRAY: James G. —  is he here?
THE COURT: Yes, he answered.
MR. GRAY: Oh, I am sorry. James G. Clark.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: He is a defendant, your honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. GRAY: Tom Lankford; is he here?
THE COURT: If you will, as your name is called,

please answer audibly so we can hear you.
MARSHAL: Tom Lankford; Tom Lankford.
MR. GRAY: Ceola Miller.
THE COURT: Just a minute; did that witness answer?
MARSHAL: No, sir.
THE COURT: What is the witnessTs name?
MR. GRAY: Tom Lankford. He is with the Birmingham

staff, the lawyer for the Birmingham News called me, and supposed 
to be one of these news men here, and I told him if either —



9

THE COURT; All right; your name, please?
WITNESS GIBSON: Gibson.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Lingo.
DEFENDANT AL LINGO: Here.
MR. GRAY: Janes Martin; he has been excused. Lily —

Addie Lily.
MARSHAL: Addie Lily.
THE COURT: All right, now, when you get to these

witnesses that do not answer, if you want the process of the court, 
j let me know; otherwise, I am going to skip on over it just like you 

are doing.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Wilson Baker; he is the Director of

Public Service of Selma.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor, Mr. Wilson Baker was

on duty all night long, and I —  he will be here sometime this
morning; he is on the wayr here, I know.

MARSHAL: He had a telephone call a few minutes ago

to this attorney.
THE COURT: Mr. Pitts says that he will be available.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: He was on duty all night long lasb

night.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GRAY: Curtis Reese; I don’t think he was served.

I believe, your honor, the others are our witnesses which we know

WITNESS GIBSON: Your honor, I represent the News.



10

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Gray, does that conclude
the call of your witnesses?

MR. GRAY: Dr. King, Mr. Gildersleeve, James

they are here.

Gildersleeve.

Mr. John Lewis 
Dr. Moldovan,

Viola Jackson.

witnesses?

several other

MARSHAL: Gildersleeve.
MR. C-RAY: Reverend C. T. Vivian, Mr. Albert Turner,
, Annie Lee Cooper, Hosea Williams, Mrs. Boynton,
Andy Young, Mr. Boom.
MR. HALL: Dr. Maddox, Dr. Dinkins.
MR. GRAY: Dr. Maddox, Dr. Dinkins.
MR. HALL: Mrs. Foster.
MR. GRAY: Mrs. Foster.
MR. HALL: We have several other witnesses •

MR. GRAY: Your honor —
MR. HALL: F. D. Reese.
MR. GRAY: Who?
MR. HALL: F. D. Reese.
MR. GRAY: Normarine Shore, Wilson Harris, Case}'- Lee

THE COURT: All right, are these the plaintiffsT

MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
MR. HALL: May it please your honor, there are

persons in the court room we probably will use, may

5



use, but I don't know the names as we can ascertain, but this is 
all we have.

THE COURT: lx the rule is invoked, they will be
required to remain outside the court room.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: The rule is invoked.
THE COURT: So if you are going to use a witness, you

better call them; if they remain in the court room, you cannot use 

them.
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
MR. HALL: This is ail we have, know of at this time,

your honor; we won’t proceed --
MR. SMITH: Your honor, the witness, William Jones,

was subpoenaed to produce certain press statements which I have in 
my file, or he has a cooy with him, also; could ohis witness be 

placed on call?
MR. GRAY 

admit, particularly the 
issued, and the other - 
able —

Yes, sir: and if the defendants will 
docket -- the Exhibit 1 to the complaint wa 
if I may see the statements, we may be

3

THE COURT: All right, just a minute, gentlemen; we

will take that up later.
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: These are the plaintiffs’ witnesses; if

these are the plaintiffs’ witnesses, swear them in, Mr. Clerk.
THE CLERK: All witnesses, please raise your right

hand.



12

(Group of witnesses sworn by the Clerk)
THE COURT: All right, now, these witnesses, with the

exception of those that may be excused from the rule, with the 
; exception of those that are parties to this case, proper parties anc. 
not __ not members of the class, will go into this witness room on 
my left.

MARSHAL: All witnesses, come this way.
MR. SMITH: Mr. Jones —
THE COURT: We will take that up later, just let them

go on; we have to do this in an orderly manner when we have this 
many witnesses.

MR. SMITH: I see.
THE COURT: After they go in the witness room, if

you have others that you did not call, you can call them.
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir; Henrietta Singleton.

MR. HALL: Margaret Moore.

MR. GRAY: Who ?
MR. HALL: Margaret Moore.

MR. GRAY: Margaret Moore and Leatha Stover.

THE COURT: All right, I take it of that call you

have one additional witness; is that correct:
MR. HALL: This is Margaret Moore: that is all I

can
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Swear this witness.



13

MR. AMa KER: Excuse me, your honor: the others —  thp
others are here.

will be righi

MR. GRAY: Are the;
MR. AMAKER : They .
_n. They are prese:
THE COURT. Mr. Gr.
:, please?
MR. GRAY: Yes, si:
THE COURT: If you
MR. GRAY: Leatha
COURT CRIER: Here
MR. GRAY: That is
TIE COURT: Swear

?hat is it, your honor; just these two.
COURT:

are three or them.
MR. GRAY: Here is the other one, your honor.
THE CLERK: All witnesses, please raise your right

hand.
(Group of witnesses sworn by the Clerk)
MARSHAL: Witnesses will come in this witness room
THE COURT: On behalf of the United States, the

plaintiff-intervenor, call your witnesses, please.
MR. DOAR: Your honor, I have several Government

witnesses that are not —  nave not yet arrived, Government employee 
The other witnesses that we have have been called, Reverend Dobynes 
D-G-B-Y-U-S-S, Ben Norfleet, John Carter Lewis



14

WITNESS J O C A R T E R  LEWIS: Here.
MR. DOAR: Come around, please. Charles Moss.
WITNESS CHARLES MOSS: Here.
MR. DOAR: Freddy Benson. He may be in that room

in there, Freddy Benson. Hr. Lewis; it is another —  there is 
another John Carter Lewis.

WITNESS JOHN CARTER LEWIS: This is John Carter.
MR. DOAR: All right, that’s all the witnesses we

have here at this time; the other witnesses —
THE COURT: Do you have any on call? This applies to

all parties to this case; if you have any on call, it will be your 
responsibility to keep them out of the court room.

MR. DOAR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, swear these witnesses.
THE CLERK: All witnesses, please raise your right

hand.
(Group of witnesses sworn by the Clerk)
MARSHAL: Come this way.
THE COURT: All right, now, is there any reason why

we should call the defendants’ witnesses separately? If you will, 
then, call -- call the witnesses for the Honorable George C. Wallac 

MR. SMITH: Your honor, the reason I couldn’t reply,
I don’t know what witnesses Mr. Fitts has in mind. When I call youjc 
name, come up. Jonn Lynch, Rex ihomas, Jacx Johnson, Arthur Worthy

Martin Luther King



15

MARSHAL: He is in the other witness room.
MR. SMITH: He is in the other witness room. Genera

Harrison, Colonel Shepherd, Mr. Villadsen, Mr. Bates, W. L. Allen.

defendant,

WITNESS W. L. ALLEN: Here.
MR. SMITH: 17. B. Painter.
WITNESS W. B. PAINTER: Here.
MR. SMITH: Major John Cloud.
WITNESS JOHN CLOUD: Here.
MR. SMITH: Major Jones.
WITNESS JONES: Here.
MR. SMITH: Those are these defendantsT witnesses.
THE COURT: All right. Now, on behalf of the

Lingo, do you have any witnesses in addition to these?
MR. SMITH: Ho, sir.
THE COURT: All right, on behalf

Clark, will you call your witnesses, please.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Your honor, in

witnesses, Deputy George Stoves, I-Iosea Williams,

of the defendant,

addition to these 
J onn Lewis, 0. i•

Vivian, Ralph ---
THE COURT: If they have already been sworn, you

need not be resworn.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Ralph Abernathy, Andrew Young,

James Bevel, John Love —  John Love, James Orange.
THE COURT: Just a minute, please. Do you have

information concerning that witness?



Virginia.
THE COURT: Has he been served?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I don’t know about that.
HR. I-icLEAN PITTS; Just one minute.
THE COURT; All right, I will address that question 

to the attorneys; has he been served?
HR. McLEAN PITTS: Let me check a second.
MR. P. H. PITTS: I don’t have knowledge —
MR. McLEAN PITTS: If you will, go right on, I will

check and come back to him; will it be all right?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. P. H. PITTS: James Orange, L. L. Anderson, A. D

King, Amelia Boynton, Frank Sirocco, James Gildersleeve, Marie 
Foster, Stanley Fountain.

MARSHAL: He hasn’t arrived yet.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: That is a Deputy Marshal.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Bernard Lee, Fred Shuttlesworth.

Your honor, we have seven witnesses which we have called which did 
not answer, but the subpoenaes are still out.

THE COURT: There are several of them, I don’t know
whether you have included in that seven these or not, but several 
of them have already answered --

MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.

16

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Says he is out of the State in

THE COURT: -- and been sworn and are in the witness



room

MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.
MR. MeLEAN FITTS: We don’t know about some of these

subpoenaes --
THE COURT: All right.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: -- that we haven’t gotten them

here 3ret.
THE COURT: I take it, then, you will make investiga­

tion and present the matter to the court, if you will.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All r:ight, swear these witnesses.
THE CLERK: All witnesses, please raise your right

hand.
(Group of witnesses sworn by the Clerk)
THE COURT: Now, gentlemen, I notice that two of

these witnesses are Deputy United States Marshals for this District; 
nnv reason why they snould not be excused from Ci.e ruie .

MR. McLEAN PITTS: No, sir.
MR. SMITH: We ask they be excused.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: No, sir.
THE COURT*. All right, swear in -- the witness, 

Johnson, will be excused from the rule. Now, there are other 
witnesses in this group that Mr. Smith asked be excused from the 

rule, members of the press.



IS

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I see one, Mr. Thomas.
MR. SMITH: Mr. Lynch, also.
THE COURT: Mr. Lynch; any reason why they should

not be excused iron the rule: any objection to it? They will be 
excused from it, those two witnesses.

MARSHAL: Deputy Worthy, too.
THE COURT: Well, I have taken that up; Worthy and

Johnson have been excused from the rule, they do not have to go 
in the witness room.

MR. GRAY: Your honor, there is also one of our
witnesses who is with tiie Birmingham Lews, a member of the pj.ess, 
should also be excused from the rule.

THE COURT: What is his name?
MR. GRAY: Mr. Gibson.
THE COURT: Tell that witness, and unless there is

some objection —
MR. SMITH: No objection.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We have no objection.
THE COURT: The witness Gibson, representative from

the Birmingham News, is excused from the rule. All right, now,
these other witnesses, let —

MR. McLEAN PITTS: There is one other officer, Mr.
Stanley Fountain, who is a Deputy Marshal for the Southern Disurxct

THE COURT: When he arrives, he will also be excused



19

from the rule of sequestration. All right, Mr. Lassiter, do we 
have additional seats in there for these witnessesc 

MARSHAL: No, sir' not in this room.
THE COURT: All right, take these witnesses to the

Grand Jury room, or to this jury room, if you have seats lor them. 
MARSHAL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Preferably to the jury room to my right

if you have seats for them.
MARSHAL: Yes, sir.
MARSHAL: Judge, I have James Gildersleeve just came

in, had a subpoena.
THE COURT: The witness Gildersleeve, I believe

called by Mr. Pitts.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir.
MR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Now, before we swear this

witness, are there any other witnesses in the court room whose names 
have not been called?

MARSHAL: Freddie Lee Bennett, Jr., just walked in.
THE COURT: Anyone in the court room who has been

subpoenaed, but the parties have not called your name, please stand
All right, and your name, please?

WITNESS LEON DANIEL: My name is Leon Daniel; I work
for U.P.I. and was subpoenaed by the plaintiffs.

THE COURT: Plaintiffs subpoenaed U.P.I. Mr. Daniel



20

THE COURT: You want him sworn?
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Come around. And your name, please?
WITNESS PAUL SIMPSON: My name is Paul Simpson, and

I was subpoenaed, F.B.I. brought me a subpoena, told me that I was 
THE COURT: Gibson?
MR. DOAR: Simpson; that is the witness —  just come

forward, please.
THE COURT: You want him sworn? Come around, please

Your name, please?
WITNESS M. J. ANDERSON: M. J. Anderson, Administrate

of the hospital.
MR. DOAR: That is subpoenaed —
WITNESS M. J. ANDERSON: Subpoenaed by the plaintif
THE COURT: Come around. Are there any others? All

right, swear these, swear these additional witnesses.
THE CLERK: All witnesses, please raise your right

hand.
(Group of witnesses sworn by the Clerk)
MARSHAL: We don't have room.
THE COURT: All right, these witnesses will go in

the witness room on my right and remain until you are excused. Nov, 
gentlemen, you have certain matters to take up, I unoerst-and one ol 

which is in reference to documents tnac were produced

MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.



21

THE COURT: That were produced by your witness, Jones.
If you will, 3rou gentlemen take this up during the recess that I am 
fixing to have for that purpose; and if it is agreeable with you 
all, it is agreeable with me that the witness be excused.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: And that announcement applies to any

other witnesses, so that we can proceed in an orderly manner without 
any more confusion than is absolutely necessary; if any witness has 
been subpoenaed by any party in this case, you have no right from 
this point on to excuse that witness unless it is agreeable with an­
other parties. Have your exhibits marked during this —  during 
this short recess for identification by the Clerk, if you will, 
the plaintiffs at this time; the defendants may have their exhibits 
marked at some time later; but in order to facilitate the presenta­
tion of your documentary evidence, have —  iiave your exhibits markei 
for identification purposes with the Clerk so they can be referred 
to initially and throughout by their -- by their number for 
identification. Do you have any other matters now that you want 
to take up, any part}/, before we get into the testimony of the case?

MR. GREENBERG: Your honor, I wanted to ask a
question, really. The case really divides into two pares; txie 
motion to dissolve the temporary restraining order is essentially 
a question of law, and at this moment I can’t think of any testimory 
that would be relevant to it. The motion for a preliminary

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.



22

injunction, however, is an evidentiary matter on which there would 
be testimony. We had thought, though we certainly/- would be happy to 
| proceed any way }rour honor suggests, that we would first argue the 
legal propositions, and then go into the evidentiary matters; but 
we are perfectly agreeable to do it any way —

THE COURT: We will reserve any arguments until we
take the evidence, and then if arguments are appropriate, I will 
hear them. I think possibly all of us are generally familiar with 
the rules that are applicable in this case, and we will not be able, 
as you say, Mr. Greenberg, to focus any of those propositions or 
make any application of them until the evidence has been taken, so 
1 see no reason for preliminary statements or arguments by counsel. 
Any other matter? All right, court will be in recess for ten 
minutes.

(At which time, 9:33 a.m., a recess was had until 
9:41 a.m., at which time the hearing continued)

THE COURT: All right, gentlemen, are you ready to
| proceed? Call your first witness, or start with your evidence.

MR. GRAY: May it please the court, by agreement we
would like to introduce Plaintiffs’ Exhibits 1 through 12, which 
are pictures of the Sunday’s march.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We haven’t made any such agreement
with this lawyer —

in
MR. GRAY: I am awfully sorry.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: —  and I haven’t even talked to b:



23

or seen the pictures.
MR. Y7ILKINS0N: Haven’t seen the pictures.
MR. Pic LEAN PITTS: \Ie have made no such agreement

with him or seen the photographs.
liR . GRAY: I am awfully sorry; we took it up with
we didn’t --
i iP-. SMITH: You want Bill Jones to remain here ?
MR. GRAY: Mr. IMtts says he won’t agree to ohem.

ME. SMITH: You want him to remain, Mack, or would
be on call? That was the idea, to put him on cal

I don’t care.MR. MeLEAN PITTS:
x rt r.OURT: All right, Plaintiffs’ Exhibits marked

for identification as 1 through 12 have been tendered, and I take 
it that part of the counsel, or some of the counsel for the 
defendants have agreed to their admissibility; any objection to 
them?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: —  I made no agreement with him

your nonor

in evidence?

n'J-Tg COURT: Well, -i
MR. McLEAN PITTS:
THE COURT: Do you

MR. PI cLSAN PITTS:
T  1 fTk v_/ x  i U whole exhibits
THE COURT: Do you

C Vi



24

HR. McLEAN FITTS: This is —  this is something that
Mr. John Doar gave me a few minutes ago.

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Clerk, if you will, help Mr.
Pitts determine if those are Exhibits 1 through 12 for identificati 

MR. McLEAN PITTS: I don’t know whether they are or
not. I mean I am honest with you.

THE COURT: If you will, help Mr. Pitts determine
that by looking on the —  on the sneets and wnere trey axe stamped.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: I haven’t —  we had —  Is that

on

all of them?

1 through 12.

THE CLERK: Yes, sir: this is Plaintiffs’ Exhibits

MR. McLEAN FITTS: This is the first time i have see 
those, is just a second ago; I want to look through them just a 

minute, your honor.
THE COURT: All right, call your first witness.
MR. GREENBERG: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., please.
MR. SMITH: Pardon the interruption; there is one

question about the witness, Daniel, from United Press, I believe, 
in Birmingham; we have no objection to him being excused from the 
rule, I don’t know whether that was clear or not. He is in the 
court room. He is your witness; we have no objection to him being
excused, that is, defendants, Wallace and Lingo.

MR. GRAY: I thought it was clear that he was

excused from the rule.



25

MR. P. H. PITTS: We have no objection.
MR. GRAY: Thank you.
MR. DOAR: All newspaper people are excused from the

rule.
M R .  WILKINSON: That was our understanding.
MR. DOAR: That your understanding, Mr. Gray?
MR. GRAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Proceed.

MARTIN LUTHER KING. JR., witness for the Plaintiffs, having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

MR. SMITH: All right.

DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. GREENBERG:
Q
A
Q

Q
A

Would you please state your name for the record?
My name is Martin Luther King, Jr.
What is your position, Dr. King?
I am President of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference 
and Co-pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia
What is the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Dr. KingI 
The Southern Christian Leadership Conference is an organization 
working in the civil rights movement that came into being in 
1957 to serve as a channel through which local protest 
organizations in the South could, cnannelize tneir protest 
activities; it works for the complete integration of the Negro



26

in American life through the philosophy and the method of 
non-violence; this is the basic philosophy that undergirds the 
Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
Could you explain what you mean by the philosophy of non­
violence, Dr. King?
Yes, this philosophy says in substance that one must have the 
inner determination to resist what conscience tells him is evil 
with all of the strength and courage and seal that he can muster 
at the same time he must not resort to violence or hatred in 
the process. It is a way of seeking to achieve moral ends 
through moral means, and I would say that the basis of the 
philosophy of non-violence is the persistent attempt to pursue 
just ends by engaging in creative non-violent approaches and 
never coming to the point of retaliating with violence or using 
violence as an aggressive weapon in the process.
Has the Southern Christian Leadership Conference operated in 
the State of Alabama?
Yes, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference has operated 
in the State of Alabama since its inception.
When was that, Dr. King?
That was in the year of 1957*
What is the most recent project in the State of Alabama in whic.i 
the Southern Christian Leadership Conference has engaged?
The most recent project is the project presently taking place 
?n some of the Black Belt counties of the State oi Alabama, and



voter registration drive in Selma, Alabama, and Marion in 
particular.

Q When did the project in Selma commence?
A Well, the planning started around the 17th of December of last 

year, but the actual project in terms of a kickoff meeting 
started on the 2nd of January of this year.

Q What was the particular purpose of the Selma project, Dr. King? 
A We have an affiliate organisation in Selma, which is one of the 

two hundred and seventy-five affiliate organizations that we 
have across the South, and our affiliate organization, oue 
Dallas County Voters League, invited us to aid and assist in 
getting more Negroes registered to vote.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor —
THE COURT: Just a minute.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor, I think all this

testimony is incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial to the issues 
involved in this case, and I —  just inquiring of the court, are 
you trying this under the rule that you will consider all the legal 
and competent testimony and will not consider any

THE COURT: Yes, in equity cases that is always the
rule, and I will make this comment for whatever assistance and 
guidance it may be to you gentlemen in your presentations, that i 
I consider the matter of grievances or alleged grievances that are
_ ar3 being protested to be a material issue, and 1 will permit
inquiry into that up to a point.

27



28

honor, to show this was -*•
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: The point I wanted to —  didn’t

want to be constantly objecting if the court was trying under that 
rule; that is all I wanted the record to show.

THE COURT: That will be the rule that is applicable)
Mr. Pitts.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir.
MR. GREENBERG: Would the reporter please read back

how far Dr. King got in his answer to that last question?
THE COURT: Well, he had been invited into Selma by

his affiliate organization for the purpose of assisting in getting 
qualified Negroes registered to vote.

MR. GREENBERG: Thank you.
Q And was this related to the Alabama voter project, this 

particular activity of the Southern Christian Leadership 
Conference?

A Yes, it was. We had had meetings with our affiliate organizati 
all over the State, I think in November or maybe early December 
of last year, and had discussed very seriously the whole matter 
of voter registration in the State of Alabama and the xact that 
there were glaring signs of discriminatory practices throughout 
the Black Belt counties. And when we dealt with the Selma 
situation, and when we were invited in, they made it clear to

MR. GREENBERG: Yes. I wanted to go into it, your

or



us that they only had some three hundred and twenty Negro 
registered voters out ox a potential of fifteen thousand, one 
hundred and. twenty-five, I believe that is, they had tnat many 
Negroes or they have that many Negroes in Dallas County of 
votinv age, wherein there are some fourteen thousand whites ox 
voting age and more than nine thousand registered, and these 
facts were brought out to us in urging us to make Dallas County 
one of the pivotal points of our total thrust into Black Belt.

Q And so then yoxi proceeded in Selma * and what form did your 
participation in the Selma movement take, Dr. King?

A Well, we started out having mass meetings; we felt that we had 
to do something to aroxise people all over the community,
realizing that when people have --

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Your honor, I object to what he
felt like; It calls for an answer as to what form it was, what type 

of people, I just want ~~
THE COURT: Well, I will sustain that objection: it

is not responsive to the question. The question was what form ox 
action did the movement take?
Q Did you hold meetings, Dr. King?
A Yes, we held mass meetings; we also organised ward meetings

throughout the city and the county. We were having these ward 
meetings all to stimulate the Negro people of Dallas County to 
seek to go to the Court House to register.

Q Did you engage in any other forms ox public protest or
encouragement?

29



30

Yes, we did. We decided that on the days that the county and 
the State had designated as registration days we would assemble 
at the church, which happens to be the Brown Chapel A.M.E. 
Church, and walk together to the Court House, so that that 
happened to have been every first and third Monday.
And did you —  you held these marches the first and third 
Monday from the beginning of the year, roughly, up until the 
present: is that correct?
That is correct.
Did you hold any other parades and demonstrations of a public 
nature?
You mean did I lead any?
Well, did the —  did your organisation, your affiliate?
Yes, all of them were centered around the whole matter of the 
right to vote.
At any point were persons who participated in these marches 
arrested?
Yes, many, many times; I think more than three thousand were 
arrested in —  in Selma and Marion together, and I was arrested, 
myself, in one of these periods when we were seeking to go to 
the Court House.
Did you participate in the planning of another march scheduled 

for March 7, 1965?
Yes, I did.
And would you describe the planning of that particular march,

Dr. King?



31

A Yes. Well, the plan was to engage in a peaceful, non-violent
walk from Selma, Alabama, to Montgomery, Alabama, where we woulc. 
present a petition to Governor Wallace protesting the denial 01 

the right to vote and the tragic and terrible police brutality 
that we had experienced in Selma.

HR. lie LEAN PITTS: We object to that.
HR. P. H. PITTS: Move to exclude that.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We move to exclude that;, that is a

conclusion.
THE COURT: Your motion is overruled; he is testifying

to what he was going to petition the Governor for.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, we except.
THE COURT: Go ahead.

q  What route had you planned for that march to follow, Dr. King?
A We had planned to walk up highway SO all the way, with stopping

points along the way, one in Dallas County, one in Lowndes 
County, and the last stopping point in Montgomery County, oeiore 
netting; uo to walk for the last day.
O  x

q why had you planned to walk rather than to engage in any other 

form of demonstration?
A Well, I think for two basic reasons: first —

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Wait a minute, your honor; we

object to why the witness did anything.
1 _l permit u-iat •

All right, sir.

THE COURT:

THE COURT: 1 w-
MR. McLEAN PITTS

Go ahead.



32

Answer the question.
Yes.

THE COURT: This has to do with his planning; go ahe
First, we were dealing with, and we continually deal witn, one 
whole question ox poverty in the Negro community, and we nad 
knowledge of the fact that the vast majority of Negroes j.n the 
Black Belt counties of Alabama earn less than eighteen hundred 
dollars a vear, so that most ox them could not afforci automooile 
and we felt that it would be a good thing on the one hand to 
deal with those who could not drive because they didn’t have 
any cars to kind of dramatize their poverty stricken situations 
and, on the other hand, to engage in the kind of self inxlxcted 
suffering that would be involved in walking fifty miles to 
continually call attention to the evils and the injustices

that we were facing i.n j

Did you have an actual ;

Yes, vie were w orking on

C-overnor■ which would na
Wednesday, if we had been able to march through.
And what would that petition have said, if you had reached the 
Governor to give it to him?
It would have said in substance, and 1 don’t recall the exact 
wording of it, but it would have said in substance that we 
assemble here to protest the fact that Negroes face notorious 
discrimination in the area of the right to vote in the Black



33

Belt counties of Alabama, and also, we had statistics to 
demonstrate this, revealing that in Lowndes County and Wilcox 
County you did not have a single Negro registered to vote, and 
in other counties the number was very, very small, and then goi:i| 
on to state that appealing —  appealing to the Governor to set 
forth a voter registration plan or structure in the State of 
Alabama that would make it possible for everyone to vote without 
facing any obstacles. Along with that was the second part 
dealing with the fact that we have constantly faced harassment, 
intimidation, brutality, and even physical death in an attempt 
to vote, or at least protest the fact that we can’t vote.

Q Dr. King, you, yourself, did not participate in any attempted 
march on the Sunday in question, did you?

A No, I did not participate in the Sunday march.
Q In your capacity as President of the Southern Christian

Leadership Conference, did 3/011 receive reports concerning what 
occurred on that Sunday?

A Yes, I did; I was in —
MR. SMITH: We object to the reports, now; they are

not material.
THE COURT: He is not asking what the reports were;

he

Q
A

asked if he received them: he said he had.
Did you receive them?
Yes, I talked with my staff members, I would say, almost 
half hour, ever3r hour, after the march up until midnight

every 
or efe



34

after midnight.
Q What reports did you receive, Dr. King?

HR. WILKINSON: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain it.

Q

A

Dr. King, do you and the 
and your Selma affiliate 
Selma to Montgomery?
Yes, we do: we feel that 
over to the State and to 
longings and aspirations 
be able to express in a

Southern Christian Leadership Conferen 
s still desire to engage in a march fro:> m

this is most important to try to get 
the nation what we feel are legitimate 
, and it would be one way that we would 
non-violent way these aspirations for

the right to vote and to get rid of the long night of police
brutality.

MR. GREENBERG: I have no further questions for Dr.

King now, your honor.
THE COURT: All right. On behalf of the —
HR. GREENBERG: The other parties may examine him.
THE COURT: —  p l a i n t i f f - intervener, any questions?

BY MR. DOAR*.
Q Dr. King, you mentioned that your drive centered in Dallas

County, Alabama, and you have also mentioned Lowndes Comity anc 
Wilcox County; were there any other counties in the Black Belt 
that you were concerned with during the months of January, 
February, and March of 1965?

A Yes, we worked in Perry County a great deal, and we have started



35

now working in several other counties, but during that particula 
period it was mainly Perry County.
Did —  will you tell whether you had any effort in Hale County? 
Yes, we started in Hale County: they did not start in January, 
but in February.
Did you start in am?- other counties?
Marengo County, Greene County, these are the ones that have 
already been started: it is our intention to work in all of 
these counties, but at least we have had some activity in these 
part icular c ount ie s.
During your trips to Selma, did you have occasion to observe any 
of the procedures of the Dallas County Board of Registrars with 
respect to the way applicants were processed?
Well, I did not observe the procedures from a first hand point.
I would just like to ask you specifically, I am talking about 
the question of speed -- 
Yes.
—  did 3̂ ou observe that, Dr. King? 
Oh, very definitely.
Would you tell the court what you observed during the months of 
January and February?
Well, I observed that the process was appallingly slow, and tha 
people î ere forced to stand in line a long, long time before 
they could even go into the Court House to sign up to get a 
number to be processed. And this slowed up even more, because



36

people had to come back on the basis of that particular number. 
I also noticed that once persons got in to be processed on 
registration days that the process was even slower because of 
the long form that they had to fill out; so in general, it was 
a very slow and continues to be a very slow process.
And could you tell us whether or not that number system was in
effect when you first got to Selma in early January?
Yes; as I recall, it started right at that time. Now, it may 
have been in effect earlier.
Did you observe any other practices with respect to the way 
Negroes -- what the Negroes were required to do in order to 
register to vote in any of the counties in which you worked?
Yes; we encountered the problem in all of the counties, but i 
guess it came out in more visible manner in Lowndes and Wilcox 
County. When we went there, the Negroes had. to have vouchers; 
and in those counties where you have no Negro registered to 
vote, we had the problem of getting somebody to vouch for them. 
We asked white persons to vouch, we talxed with tne Snerif~, on2 

Registrars: they said the}.7’ couidn*t vouch ior them, so that we
found a real problem, and we still find a problem on the vouche c

system.
Did you —  you specifically ask the public officials in those 
counties if they would vouch for citizens, Negro citizens, in 

that count}'?
Yes, I personally talked with the Sheriff of both Wilcox and 
Lowndes Counties and asked them if they would not vouch ±or



37

Negroes who were registered -- who were desirous of registering 
to vote. We had some three or four hundred standing out in 
Wilcox County, and we couldn’t get a single person to vouch for 
them.
During the time that you were in the Selma area during January 
and February, can you tell me whether or not you spoke about the 
slow pace of voter registration, complained about that to 
public officials in that county?
Yes, we spoke constantly, and I spoke constantly, to officials 
about it: I spoke about it in mass meetings, I sought to speak 
with Sheriff Clark about it, I talked with Mr. Baker about it, 
the Police Commissioner, and as many people as I had an 
opportunity to talk with, to point out the fact that this was 
all too slow, and that it was obvious that discrimination was 
existing, and that this was a method worked out to, really 
contrived, to keep the number of Negro voters at very low level. 
you personally were in the Selma area j_rom tne knd or 3rd. oi 
January and many days up through the present time: is chat 
correct?
That is correct: I have been there a great deal; I would say 
more than half of my time has been spent there.
Would it be safe to say that this lias been your central project 
since the first of the year, i960?
That is correct: yes, sir.

THE COURT: Nov;, you gentlemen representing the



36

defendants can proceed in any order that you agree upon; in the
absence of an agreement, just examine in the order that your name
appears in the case.

CROSS EXAMINATION:
BY MR. SMITH:
Q You say you came to Selma the first of this year, 1965, as 

President of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And your project generally being voter registration in Alabama?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q In Dallas and surrounding counties; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Where did you come from?
A Well, when I first came, as I recall, I came from Atlanta, which 

is my home, and which is the headquarters of our organization.
Q From the period, January to the present time, approximately how 

much time have you spent in Montgomery and Dallas Counties?
A To the best of my recollection, I have spent almost half of my 

time, or maybe a little more; I don’t know the exact number of 
days, but I think I could be safe in saying that I have speno 
at least half of my time in Alabama, and that would include not 
only Selma, but Montgomery and other counties.

Q And this is in regard to voter registration drive?

A That is —
Q That is the project?



39

That is the main project; that’s right.
Are you familiar with Mr. Jack Greenberg?
Yes, I an.
What is his position; is he counsel for —  national counsel for 
the N. double A .C.P.?
Yes, the N. double A.G.P. Legal Defense and Educational Fund.
Do you have communications between the Legal Division of No 
double A.C.P. and the organization which you head?
Yes, we do.
Are you pretty well informed from time to time what the Legal 
Division is doing and anticipating doing?
IIo, I am not* we —  I am not a member of the Board, and we don’u 
have any members of our Board —
Do you know -- excuse me. 

on that Board.
Did you know that a suit was pending in the United States 
District Court for the Southern District of Alabama, Northern 
Division, affecting the Dallas county Board o± Registrars in 
Januain’- of this year?
We were aware of several suits that had been filed.
Were you aware of this particular suit, thao affected the Dallas 
County Board of Registrars?
Yes.

THE COURT: Talking about United States against Atkin
MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.



40

THE COURT: All right.
I think I became aware of this particular suit. 
When?
In January.
In Januar}^?
Yes; uh, huh.
All right. Being aware of it, you came, nevertheless, to Selma 
in regard to the voter registration problem in Alabama, and 
particularly concentrating in Dallas County —
Uh, huh.
—  is that correct?
That is correct; uh, huh.
Now, you mentioned, I believe —  and I don’t want to misquote 
you, and that is the reason I am rephrasing the question —  you 
mentioned that you personally observed the registration process 
conducted or carried on by the Board ox Registrars in Dallas 
County over the oeriod of January for some time; is that correc
That is correct.
And in your opinion, based upon your personal observation, you 
found the process to be appallingly slow?
That is correct.
And you observed other practices of voter discrimination —  
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
-- in regard uo one registration o: prospective qualified voter

Yes, that’s right, the vouchers.



41

Did you report these to the Legai. Division ox the ii. oouole A.

C. P. ?
Oh, yes" we reported all of these.
Who did you report them to?
We reported all ox these things; I can’t say a^ this point 
Did you report them to Hr. Greenberg?
—  because I don’t recall; Mr. Young, Andrew Young —
Who -- is he in the Legal Division?
-- my assistant —  no, he is my Executive Assistant, and I thin, 
the contacts were made througn him, so i don’t recall.
Well, is it your understanding or do you know whether or not 
these practices which you observed in Dallas County were report 
to the Legal Division, N. double A.C.r.? Do you know that they 
were, cr do you?
1 am pretty sure that they were reported; yes, 1 am pretty sure 

ox that.
Were these practices that you observed reported to ohe Unxtea 
States Justice Department, any representative ox the United 
States Attorney General’s office?
Yes, we talked with —  in fact, 1 think almost ohe xirso day 
that we marched to the Court House, I talked personally with 
two officials from the Justice Department in the Federal Buildi 
across from the Court House and stated many of nhese things to 
them, and they said that they would get these —  they would 
relay it to Washington, and 1 made it very clear that, along



4^

with the problem of being denied the right to vote, we were 
facing terrible —

Q You are not answer!ng ray question —  excuse me for interrupting. 
A Uh, huh.
y My question simply was did you report it?
A Well, I did: yes, sir: yes.
Q You stated that you did? 
a I did; that’s right.

1 Did representatives of either tiie Justice Department or anybody 
connected with the office of the United States Attorney General 
tell you that they would file appropriate pleadings or petitions 
addressed to the Federal District Court in regard to these 
practices which you observed?

A At that time the men that I talked with onl3r said that they 
would get the facts to Washington, and they would be glad to 
relay it to the Attorney General.
What did the Legal Division of N. double A.C.P. tell you, if 
anything —  1 don’t know that they d.id, and 1 am not trying to 
ask a presumptive question, but did the Legal Division of H. 
double A.C.P. tell you anything in regard to petitioning the 
Federal Court wherein the voter registration question was 
pending in Dallas County?

M R. GREENBERG: Your honor, I would like to object
to this line of questioning; I don’t see xts relevance m  cross 
examination; I don’t know wnere it is going, ana 1 china _lu is



43

unduly protracting the case; we object.
THE COURT: Overrule; go ahead.

A I am very sorry?
THE COURT: What if anything —  what if anything did

the N. double A.C.P. counsel tell you concerning the institution of 
judicial proceedings?
Q Yes, sir?
A Well, at this particular time we 'were involved in the proolem 

of the large number of people being arrested, and we had to —  
q I am not —  that is not responsive, but —  I am not trying to 

be rude to you, but that is not responsive to my question. Did 
the —  did the N. double A.C.P. Legal Division tell you anything 
in response to your reporting these alleged voter discrimination

practices?
A I really don’t recall on that particular point. 
q you don’t recall whether they did or not?
A I would have to talk with Reverend Young about that. 
q a]_]_ right; in January when you came to Dallas County, did you 

know that the United States District Coiirt, in United States 
versus Atkins, had issued an injunction against the Dallas Coun. 
Board of Registrars and their successors in office in regard to 
voter registration and qualifications of voters in Dallas County 

Ho, I was not aware of this.
You didn’t know that the --- that such suit had been filed or 
that the court had assumed jurisdiction of it?

A
Q



44

This I became aware of after —  after 
When did you become aware of the fact 
Court had assumed jurisdiction of the

January 2 .
that the United States 
voter registration matter

in Dallas County?
I -- I am s o r r y :  I donTt remember the exact date —
Give us your best recollection?
—  but I would say about when I really became a —  seriously, or 
I should say when I —  when it really became a serious part of 
my understanding was when I was in jail, and as i recall -- 
You still haven’t told me when; that is what I am asking you? 
Yes, I --- as I recall, that must have been about the middle of 
January.
This year, 1965?
That’s right: I I —
So about the time that you came to Dallas County; is that 
correct?
Yes, shortly after, about two weeks after, as I recall, now —  
All right, now, you mentioned that you practice and adhere to 
the philosophy or method of non-violence: is that correct.''
That is correct; uh, huh.
And that you do not use or advocate the use of aggressive weapon

That’s right.
But did I understand 2rou correctly to say that in regard to the 
voter registration practices in Dallas County you and your 
organisation in conjunction and in concert with tne local



45

organization in Selma planned mass demonstrations?
Well, yes; we planned mass marches of people, potential 
registrants, to the Court House.
The purpose of these mass demonstrations and marches were to 
focus the attention of the alleged grievances that you and othe 
people had in regard to the registration practices; is that

r

right?
ThatTs right; and —  and to seek to arouse the conscience of 
the community and the nation on this issue so that somebody 
would really come to the po?<.nt and aid us so tha.t we could 
register and vote without any problems.
How many street demonstrations were conducted in Selma over the 
period, January to the present time; I am talking about street 
demonstrations?
Yes; I am sorry, I donTt know the exact number.
Would you say at least a half dozen.'’
Yes, I would say more.
Or more?
More than a half dozen.
And the purpose of these street demonstrations were the same 
as the mass meetings, so that I am not confusing you or myselx, 
the same purpose to call to the attention 01 the nation and oo

_all interested cit?Lzens of these alleged voter registra--
tion grievances; is that correct?
Partially; I would say that all along we nave had a twofold



problem, and we have tried to keep the two together, because we 
think they are kind of inextricably bound together, and that is 
the police brutality that -- the tragic police brutality that 
we have faced.

! Q You are not now being responsive to my question.I
THE COURT: It is responsive, it is responsive; go

ahead.
IQ You may continue?
A These were the two reasons, the right to vote and protesting the 

police brutality.
j Q Did you or persons in your organization obtain from the Dallas■

County Board of Registrars a registration list, a list of people 
that had been registered in Dallas County?

A I think that list was in the hands of the Dallas County Voters 
League.

Q And was the prospective applicants for registration given and 
designated numbers for the registration process?

A Yes, they were given numbers at first; as I recall, they are 
still given numbers after signing an appearance sheet. 

q Why didnTt you go to the United States District Court wioh your 
grievances instead of on the streets in Selma?

A Well, this is a basic philosophy, again, of our movement; we 

f eel --
Q Is the philosophy not to use the courts of this nation?
A No, not at all.

46

I



47

ion
Who have assumed jurisdiction of the particular matter which 
you are parading in the streets or in trying to sell to a nat 
No, that is not our philosophy: we feel that we must work throuj 
the courts; we have great respect for the courts, and some of 
our greatest gains have come through the Federal Judiciary, and 
we are the first to acknowledge that: but x̂re think that it is 
necessary, in order to mobilize people, to arouse them irom 
their apathetic slumbers and a lack of motivation brought about 
by long years of oppression, that we must give them more 
courage and a sense of participation by having mass demonstra­
tions and orotests in order to call attention to it. After ail 
in a court situation you involve just a few people, but when 
people en masse can feel a. sense of involvement and participati 
they, themselves, have a greater sense of urgency in the quest 
for their own freedom.
Did you know that the actions in voter registration suits of th 
type filed in Selma or Dallas County were class actions, on 
behalf of not only the plaintiffs, but all persons similarly 
situated; did you know that?
Yes, we realize that, and I realise that when I —
Anybody that had a grievance could present it to onab court 
which had jurisdiction of the voter registration matter

or

Yes.
did you understand that? 

Yes, I realize that.



48

Q But instead of presenting the grievances which you observed to 
the court through either the United States Justice Department 
or counsel of N. double A.C.P. or your organisation or any 
other organization, you felt that in the best interest of those 
whom you represented in the movement which you advocated to 
take it to the streets?

MR. GREENBERG: Object.
THE COURT: That is argument.
MR. GREENBERG: This is repetitious.
THE COURT: That is argument. Go ahead; don’t argue

with him: question him, but don’t argue with him.
MR. SMITH: All right, sir.

Q Were you on March 9, Tuesday of this week, at eleven o’clock in 
the morning served with a copy of this court’s order dated March 
8?

MR. GREENBERG: I would like to object to that, your
honor: this is a matter concerning which the defendants have filed 
a suggestion of contempt. The court has specifically said it is 
something —  it is not going to be taken up today: it is a matter 
that is relevant to that other matter. I think it would conflict 
with proper hearing of the other matter, and I don’t think it should
be gone into now.

THE COURT: Well, I didn’t say that it was a matter
that would not be taken up today; I said it was a matter that the 
defendant, Clark, had no right to petition the court —



49

MR. GREENBERG: We —  I am sorry.
THE COURT: —  Tor a show cause order.
MR. GREENBERG: In any event —
THE COURT: It is true that —  that this natter that

counsel seeks to commence inquiring into now is not directly involved 
in the main issue or issues in this case, and I take it that he’s 
getting into whether or not there was a violation of this court’s 
restraining order.

MR. GREENBERG: Precisely; that is why —
THE COURT: I will permit it for whatever light it

night shed on the attitude and the manner in which the demonstrations 
have been, and I will permit it on the same theory that I permitted 
your background inquiries, and I’ll also permit it on the theory fojj* 
whatever information it may give me in connection with whether or 
not any further proceedings should take place.

MR. GREENBERG: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
MR. SMITH: Now, would you please read the question

back?

order.
THE COURT: Whether or not he was served with the

MR. SMITH: Sir?
THE COURT: Whether or not he had been served with

the order* we don’t need the question read back.
Q Had you?



50

Yes, i was served.
And were you served at approximately eleven o’clock on the 
morning of March 9?
Yes, I think it was about that.
By the United States Marshal?
Yes; uh, huh.
And at that time where were you in Selma?
I was at the residence of Dr. Sullivan Jackson on Lapsley Street. 
Lapsley Street?
That’s right.
Did you read the order of the court?
I 'read it very hastily, and then I had it interpreted to me.
Who interpreted it for you?
Well, at that time Attorney Clarence Jones was there, and he 
was there in the house, and I had him to interpret the order.
You :read it, yourself, later, didn’t you?
I -- but before that I had it interpret-- i mean I had talk

w: th Mr. Greenberg about it, because I was aware of the fact

that there had been a restraining order, bu.t 1 hadn’t been
served with that, when I became aware of it I called —  I called

How, we are correct about the time that 
about eleven o’clock that morning? 
That’s right, out ± knew of tne order.

you were served: it was

Before you 'were served?



51

Before I was served; yes.
All right.
At least two hours or so before I was served.
How, after being served with a copy of that order on March 9, 
did you go to Brown’s Chapel Baptist Church on Sylvan Street in 
Selma?
.es. 1 dia
About what time Qia
about one o’clock.
About one o’clock?
It may have been a little later, one thirty 
between one and one thirty.
Was this a mass meeting at the church?
A mass meeting had been in process, but it 
of people who had assembled to engage in —

, but it was, I think,

was mainly a gathering 
in a peaceful march

Kow many people were there?
I would estimate about three thousand on the inside and outside. 
Did you talk to them?
I did talk to them; yes.
Did you talk to them in regard to marching from Selma to 
Montgomery?
T realljr don’t remember my exact words.
I am not asking for your exact words; I am asking for what in
substance you told the crowd?
I -- well, I said in substance that on the basis of conscience



and on the basis ox what I considered morality I had no 
alternative but to lead a march -- 
Did you tell them —

I-'IR. GREENBERG: Let him finish.
Excuse me for interrupting.

THE COURT: Let him finish.
But —  I had no alternative but to lead a march, and I 
them to join with me and march out of Selma across the 
but I made it very clear if we confronted a human wall 
would not try to break through a police line. This is

asked 
bridge, 
that we 
not in

the spirit of non-violence, and I would never advocate that.
How, when you walked out of the church in Selma and crossed the 
bridge, you would be on United States highway SO east, would -you
not ?
That’s right.
Did you walk out of the church with this crowd of people after 

the meeting?
Yes, x walked out w.;.tn cnei.i.
Did you proceed to U. S. highway SO east?
Yes, I -- we did.
This would have been about what time?
This would have been about two o’clock.
Two o’clock in the afternoon?
That’s right.
Now, did you --- did 3rou approach the bridge on U. S. SO east?



A

53

Did we approach the bridge?
Q Yes?
A Yes, we walked over the bridge.
Q Did 3/ou have approximately the same number of people with you 

as were in the church?
A I would assume so* it was a very long line.
Q Big crowd of people?
A Yes. thatTs right.
Q All right. Now, as 3/ou reached the bridge on U. S. £0, you

might say at the foot of Broad Street, were you there confrontec. 
with a United States Marshal who read 3̂ ou a copy of this court’s 
order of the previous day —  excuse me, it would have been of 
that morning?

A Yes, we were confronted with the Marshal.
Q Did the Marshal read it to you?
A He read it, he read sections —
Q Did he read the part of the order wherein the court enjoined you 

and others from attempting to march from Selma to Montgomery 
until this court had a reasonable opportunity to make a judicial 
determination of the rights of the parties to this action?

A Yes, he read that portion to us.
Q Now, that would be on the side of the bridge nearest downtown 

Selma?
A That’s right: uh, huh.
Q What did you do after the United States Marshal read you this

order?



54

l sira--simply said — ’
DidnTt say what you said —  excuse me: I asked what did you do? 

Would you --
Oh; I made a statement to the Marshal.
All right; did you go on across the bridge?
And then proceeded -- yes; uh, huh.
Did you go across the bridge?
Yes, we went across the bridgec
And that is marching in the direction of Montgomery?
That’s right; it’s in the direction of Montgomery.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
How far did you go?
We went across —  all the way across the bridge, and l would 
think after crossing the bridge we went another five hundred 
feet or so, and there we confronted the State Troopers in very 
large numbers, and they told us we could not proceed beyond tha-

point.
Now, this —  did approximately the same number of people 
behind you crossing the bridge as were originally in the

contxr 
church

That’s right; I —  I would think so.
About three thousand people?
That’s right; that would be my estimate.
Let me come back to what you wanted to say; what 
the United States Marshal when he read you this

did you tell 
court’s order?



55

I simply said I was aware of the order, but that on the basis 
of conscience we felt that we had to walk on. I just had two 
simple sentences, and we continued.
Did you plan the demonstration in Montgomery yesterday, or take 
any part in it?
The demonstration —
On De;:ter Avenue?
—  in Montgomery?
Tes?
No, I did not plan that at all.
Did you have knowledge of it?
Yes, I had knowledge of it, but I didn’t plan it.
Did you suggest it?
I had originally suggested a march on the Capitol yesterday, 
and it would have been the culmination of the walk from Selma 
to Montgomery, but after things didn’t work out and the Governo 
issued his ban, I made it very clear to the staff that we would 
have to call it off for Wednesday and wait until after the 
Thursday hearing in order to determine when we would have the 
march in Montgomery, and —
How many people —

r

And we contacted most of the people that had been contacted,
and the persons who came yesterday were probably people who 
were not notified and who had gone so far in their plans that 
they couldn’t call it off, but we had nothing to do with that.



Q Did any of the people in Selma that you personally knew or knew 
by sight participate in the march in Montgomery yesterday?

A Oh, I am sure there were persons that I knew; I didn’t see the 
march, but I am sure that there were persons in .it, because we 
have affiliate organization here in Montgomery, and I am —  I 
am sure they participated, but I didn’t see any of them; I 
wouldn’t know —

Q Did they come from Selma to Montgomery?
A I don’t recall anybody from Selma. Now, there again, I don’t 

know, but I don’t remember any of our staff members who have 
been in Selma, working in Selma, coming to Montgomery.

Q What was the purpose of the demonstration in Montgomery jrester- 
day?

A The purpose —
Q Was it the same purpose?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection; he just said he didn’t
know anything about the demonstration in Montgomery.

THE COURT: If he knows, he can answer it; I will
permit it; if you know.
A I can only go by what I saw in the newspapers and heard on the 

radio.
THE COURT: That wouldn’t be proper.

Q We are not interested in that. Have you previously organized 
and conducted mass marches or demonstrations in Montgomery 
County in regard to the voter registration?

56



57

Yes, earlier in the —  in February, I believe, we had a march 
to the Court House from the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church.
Was this in regard to the voter registration practices —
ThatTs right.
—  in Montgomery?
Yes.
Did you or any member of your organization have grievances in 
regard to the registration process in Montgomery by the Montgome 
County Board ox Registrars?
No, we made it very clear that this was not a protest march in 
Montgomery. I think the words used were a march of good will 
and to stimulate the Negro citizenry of Montgomery to make use 
of new opportunity that had been provided through the Federal 
Courts, and we wanted to get as many people down as we possibly 
could, and in the two days we got a little more than seven- 
hundred, and that was the main purpose.
In the plan of your march from Selma to Montgomery'-, did you or 
any of your subordinates or anybody in your organization make 
am*- inquire?- into the proposed route or investigate in regard to 
it?
No, we didn’t make any inquiry with legal o--  I mean with the
authorities of the State. We were —  we were very dead serious 
in saying that we planned to walk to Montgomery, and we went 
through a great deal of work and spent a lot of time planning 
the route, the stopping points, the tents, where they would oe,



the food problem, we had purchased all of that, and we didn’t 
have any idea that we would oe stopped, vie lelt that this woulj 
be a privilege that citizens could engage in as long as they 
didn’t tie up traffic and walk out on the main highway and —  
but on the side of the road.
Did you investigate approximately how many bridges were on U.3. 
highway 60 between Selma and Montgomery?
Yes: Mr. Hosea Williams, who was dealing with the whole logistic 
problem, studied the highway very thoroughly.
That was my question; it was studied?
Oh, ves; yes, it was studied, and he reported to me on it, all 
of the details.
Did he report to you that bridge —  number of bridges?
He reported there were about three bridges, I believe, but that 
one could walk across these bridges single file rather than two 
or three abreast.
He reported there were three bridges between Selma and 
Montgomery?
Well, I -- maybe I should say he said there were several; I 
don’t remember the exact number, he said there were several 
bridges, but when I raised the question of getting across the 
bridges, he said that in each instance one could walk across 
the bridge, but it would have to be one person at a time rather 

than two or three.
Did he or anyone in your organisation make any investigation

56



59

into the traffic count along this proposed route; that is, the 
number of cars and trucks tnau would travel this route daily.
I don’t think he studied the number of cars, and I guess that 
Was the reason that we did not plan to walk on the highway, out 

on the side of the road.
How did you plan to cross a bridge?
I am sorry, I didn’t —
How did you plan to cross a bridge?
Well, from my understanding, and I observed those bridges once 
or twice as I drove from Selma to Montgomery, there is a space 
whereby one can walk across the bridge and still not be on the 
highway; but as I said, it is just space enough ior one person 
to go at a time. Now, there are points on the highway that we 
naturally have more room. I would think thac ior cwenty-five 
or thirty miles of the fifty miles you have four lane highways 
which are naturally much wider than the two lane highways.
How many people did you anticipate joining in this march as you 
originally planned it from Selma to Montgomery?
We originall}.'' announced between five and eight hundred, and si- 
hundred and fifty starred out.
You started out with three thousand on this past Tuesday?
Yes* well, that was because of the new situation tnat had 
developed, and 1 don’t mind saying that we were terribly upset 
and all over what had happened Sunday, and this was in part a

orotest against that.



60

Q

i A

A

Q

Aii

On Tuesday of this week, did you receive notice of the 
proclamation issued 03/ the President 01 the Un-L̂ eu Stages 
Mo, I didn’t.

requesting —  excuse me: requesting that you observe the 
order of this honorable court?
po^ x was not aware of the President’s soauemenc until ai^ei we 
returned from the march.
When did 3̂'ou become aware of it?
This must have been about four or five in the afternoon. I had 
no knowledge of tie President’s statement.
Did vou tell Mr. Fountain, the United States liarsiial, ao one 
foot of the bridge on U.S. BO in Selma tnat you were compelled 
to defy this court’s order in regard to tne marcn?
Mo, I did not tell Mr. Fountain that; I have not told anybody 
that I was compelled to defy a court order, this order, I 
simplv said that on the basis of conscience I felt that 1 had t< 
march, and I felt that I was doing what was morally right, and 
in the situation I was honest to say what was practically rignt 
I want to read a quote from the Alabama Journal, a newspaper 
published in Montgomery, under the dateline 01 Wednesday, March 
1 0 , of this 3̂ ear, wherein it quotes a statement that you maae 
at the time which we are talking about, and after I read it 
would you tell me, please, whether it is true or incorrect or - 

THE COURT: Whether it is a correct quotation: go

a lie a c.



'“King said this is the first time he has ever defied a federal 
court order, and he realised that he might be held in contempt 
oi? c ourt x or* ni s 9. c o i. on •
Is that the statement?

LIE. GREENBERG: Does that purport to be a quotation?
And preceding that —  let me read so that I won’t misquote it; 
the article says, "United States District Judge j?rann m.
Johnson, Jr., had ordered King not to march Tuesday, but King 
said his conscience forced him to defy the unjust order- —

MR. GREENBERG: I would like to object, your honor;
would like him to point out what is in quotation and what is not 
quotation marks in that statement.

THE COURT: I sustain it.
MR. SMITH: All right, sir.

I show you this newspaper which contains the matters I have jus 
read, and there appears in quotation, "The unjust order"; did 

you make that statement?
Yes, I did; I made it very clear that 1 was very upseo aoout 
the order, and I felt that as a result of the order we had been 
put in a very difficult position, generally, and I had been put 
in a very difficult position in particular. I have nothing to 
do but to be honest about it. I felt that it was like 
condemning the robbed man for getting robbed and allowing tne 
robber to go uncondemned, and I made it very clear that this



62

order was an order that I was very concerned about and very upset 
about, but I did not, in spite of saying this, ever say that I 
was defying the court order. I always try to place it in the 
terms of acting on the basis of conscience, because I had a very 
difficult problem, and it was one of the most painful decisions 
I have ever made, to try on the one hand to d.o what I felt was 
a practical matter of controlling a potentially explosive 
situation, at the same time not defy a Federal Court order.

Q Did counsel back on Lapsley Street advise you that the aouempted 
march would not be in violation ox tnis court's order, you 
mentioned you talked to the lawyer aoout it?

A The counsel ---

Q
A

r*

A
Q

Did a lawyer advise you?
He said   he advised that it was an invalid order and that he
did not consider the march in violation —  I mean the march as 
something that would lead to contempt of court; but now, he 
didn’t advise me whether to march or not; I had to make that

decision.
THE COURT: Anything else, Hr. Smith?

Have 3̂ ou conferred with Governor Collins of lO.orida, the 
representative of Presid.ent Johnson, in Selma this week. 
Yes, I did on the day of the march.
Did you tell him in substance that the situation in Selma was 

a dangerous one?
Vie had a fairly long discussion, and 1 —  I don’t remember allA



63

Q

A

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A

Q
A
Q

we discussed. I have talked with him at length on the Selma 
situation, before, in Washington.
Did he beseech you in Selma this week not to —  did he ask you 
on behalf of the President of the United States of America not 
to conduct this march on Tuesday?
I don’t know if he was speaking for the President or giving his 
own personal views —
Did he make the statement to you —
—  but he urged me not to march.
He urged you not to?
That’s right; he did.
Did he admonish you that it was an explosive situation in Selma? 
He mentioned the fact that it was explosive and that it would ble 
a tragedy for the whole nation and it would tarnish the image 
of our nation if the events of Sunday would be repeated, and I 
said to him at that point that, 1!I agree with you absolutely, 
and I think instead of urging us not to march, you should urge 
the State Troopers not to be brutal toward us if we do march, 
because we have got to march," and I tried to articulate to him 
why we had to march, and I really feel that after I talked with
him at length about it he sympathized with my position.
But your conversation with him preceded your visit to the chur 
Yes, just before; I left immediately after I talked with him. 
And your march out on U.S. 80 across the bridge; he talked with 
you before?

c h



64

A He talked with me before that; yes.
MR. GREENBERG: Do we direct now? I would prefer to 1

do it after each counsel, it would focus better, but as your honor 

would prefer.
THE COURT: I believe we will let counsel go ahead.
MR. GREENBERG: All right.
THE COURT: Does that conclude your examination, Mr.

Smith?
MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Dr. King, before we continue

| with counsel examining you, along this last part of Mr. Smith*s 
j examination let me ask you a few questions, please.

WITNESS: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
THE COURT: On Tuesday when —  when you did march,

prior to the time you marched did you have any any conversation 
with Governor Collins concerning the extent of your march, how -ai 
vou intended to march, and where you intended to march?

WITNESS: Yes, I said to him that we felt compelled,
as I said earlier, on the basis of conscience, to march, and i said 
to him at that point that we were aware of the fact at that time tha 
the State Troopers were standing at a certain point across the br.-.d 
and that they were there In large numbers, and that they would form 
a human wall, and I went on to say that we would not ever attempt, 
on the basis of the non-violent spirit and the non-violent movement 
to break through a human wall that had been set up by a policeman. 
And when I said —  said that, I went on to say that I felt that at



of

e d

65

least we had to walk to the point where the brutality occurred Sunday 
and not only walk to that point, but to be able to make some kind 
witness, some kind of testimony, to have some prayers, because of 
the numerous religious leaders who had ccme in from u _l 1 over tne 

country.
THE COURT: Is it correct to say that when you start

I to march, and you went across the bridge, you knew that the State
j

i Troopers were approximately five hundred feet beyond it?
WITNESS: That’s right; we did.
THE COURT: And you did not intend at that time to

march past the Troopers; is that right?
WITNESS: That is correct; we —
THE COURT: Had you made any advance preparations

a march from Selma to Montgomery
WITNESS: I think —
THE COURT: —  in the way of food for that day, in

the way of food and trucks and things like that?
WITNESS: No, we didn’t. The —  the predominant

opinion was that we would not be able to get to Montgomery, so we
didn’t even prepare for it.

THE COURT: Now, it has been reported to me —  and
let me ask you if this is correct —  that after you reached the Sta 
Troopers, and while you were there and confronted by the Troopers, 
that they were pulled away and that their automobiles were removed 
while you all were still there; is that correct.'1

or

t<



66

WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: And then did you go forward, or did you

turn and go back to Montgomery —  I mean to Selma?
WITNESS: We turned around and went back to Selma.
THE COURT: After the State Troopers had been pulled

back?
WITNESS: ThatTs right.
THE COURT: And at that point there were no Troopers

in front of 3rou —
WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: —  between —  on the highway between you

all and Montgomery?
WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: But you turned and went back to Selmar

that report to me that I have received from the Jxistice Departme : i t

correct?
WITNESS: Yes, sir; that is correct.
THE COURT: You know why the State Troopers were

pulled back at that point to leave the highway open for you?
WITNESS: No, we —  we don’t know; we have been 

asking questions in my mind, in our minds, but we really don’t know. 
It may be that after confronting them, and we felt that we had to 
have this moral confrontation with the State Troopers, and they sail 
we couldn’t move forward, I made the statement, uDo you mind, sir, 
if we have some prayers and sing one or two freedom songs?’1 and then



I said -- I mean he said, "You can have the prayers and songs and go 
! back to the church. 11 This was a kind ox tacit agreement.

THE COURT: Now, a tacit agreement between who,

j between what parties?
WITNESS: Right there with who —  I don’t remember

the name.
THE COURT: Was Governor Collins there?
WITNESS: No, I am not sure if he was on the scene

or not. I am not sure, but I mean with the State Trooper who spoke

over the --
THE COURT: All right.
WITNESS: —  system.
THE COURT: Along that same point, let me ask you

if there was an agreement between you and —  and Governor Collins, 
who, as I understand it, was acting as a liaison between you ana trie 
State Troopers: is that correct; was he on that day carrying 

messages back and forth?
WITNESS: Well, when he came in, I think the sequent

would be this: He came and said that for many reasons he wished
that we wouldn’t march, and he urged us not to, and I went through 
a long discussion, relatively long discussion, about the reasons 
why I felt that we had to march, and then at that point Reverend 
Fred Shuttlesworth, who was in the meeting, said to Governor Collins 
that, "The thing you should do, Governor, if you want to be nelpfu.. 
in this situation, is to go to the Troopers and urge them not to



65

interfere with our activities today or not to be brutal in any mannei
THE COURT: Subsequent to that time, were you brought

• a route of march by Governor Collins?
WITNESS: Yes, he brought me a piece of paper with a

!route.

I

THE COURT: Before you marched?
WITNESS: Yes. As we —
THE COURT: And who did it purport to came from?

According to Governor Collins, the route of march that you and this
group were to tahe last Tuesday?

WITNESS: I am sorry, I really don’t know, and I gav
it immediately to Reverend Young.

THE COURT: Well, did you march according to the rou
that Governor Collins brought you?

WITNESS: Yes, it was the same route that they used
Sunday-, according to P.everend Young: ne looked at it immediately, 
and he said, “This is the same route, I am familiar with this.1'

HR. McLEAN PITTS: Now, we —  that is all right.
THE COURT: What were you informed with reference to

that route, that it was permissible for you to march along than rou 

or not?
WITNESS: Governor Collins said to me when he gave m

the paper, he came and said very briefly, “Let me give you this, 
or this is the route that they would like for you to follow."

THE COURT: They who: did he say?



65

T r*r f.-i T \T \?  q o ,  . i J_ i iiiiiOO v He didn’t say who. 
THE COURT: All right.
WITNESS: And he said, ;:I think things wa.11 work out

jail right,i; and that was all Q0 said.
THE COURT: D:ici ’.t have a point on there where the

|State Troopers were supposed to be?
WITNESS: I really don’t think it did. As I recall,

I looked at it very quickly and gave it to Reverend Young, but I
don’t recall --

Tine COURT: All right.
WITNESS: it having where the State Troopers were

to be, but it just gave around —  I don’t remember the name of 
streets, but it led right on around to the bridge.

THE COURT: Then as I understand i'

—  did you agree, and did you subsequently carry
Collins, that you would stop on your march where '

-T T  rm'T'vi n  O ,, Oh. 3re s: we made it very

Collins in our talk with him that we —

THE COURT: All right •

a
.or

WITNESS: —  would not break through the troops, we
would have to stop at that point.

MR. GREENBERG: Please the court, we have —  one of
the witnesses, I think, has that so called map. j.« is just a few 
scribbled lines* we are trying to get it so the court can see the 
whole thing. Here it Is.



70

The COURT: Let it be marked for identification.
THE CLERK: PlaintiffsT Exhibit number 15 for

identification.
THE COURT: I hand you Plaintiffs1 Exhioit Ip and

ask you if that is the diagram that Governor Collins gave you on tha 
morning before the march indicating where you could marcn?

WITNESS: Uh, huh; yes, sir: this is it.
The COURT: Do you know whether he had been in touch

with Sheriff Clark or Lingo or any of their representatives prior to 

that time?
WITNESS: I -- I don:t know, but I assumed that he 

had been. When he came to me, at the end of our meeting, after we 
suggested that he -- after we suggested that something be done abou 
curbing the brutality, he did say that they would immediately try
to do something about it, and we didnTt

THE COURT: Were you informed by Governor Collins
prior to the time you marched that if you stopped where the Trooper

were there would be no brutality?
WITNESS: Well, when he came to me, he said simply

that, ”1 think everything will be all right.” That was his stateme 
as I recollect, and I assumed by that that he meant that we would d 
able to march at least to the point where the brutality occurrea 
Sunday and would face the human wall, and that we would be pemitte
to have a brief period there and go back to the church.

We will take a ten minute recess.THE COURT:



71

(At which time, 10:55 a.m., a recess was had until 
|11:0 3 a.m., at which time the hearing continued)

THE COURT: Further cross, on behalf of the defendani
Clark.
1 BY MR. McLEAN PITTS:
Q Did I understand that your organization is the Southern Christia|n 

Leadership Conference: is that correct?
IA That is correct.
Q Is that a corporation?
A Yes. it is a corporation.
Q What state is it incorporated in?
A Georgia.
Q Georgia* is it qualified to do business in the State of Alabama? 
A We have affiliate organizations in —  in Alabama.
Q I asked 3̂ ou was that corporation qualified to do business in the 

State of Alabama?
MR. GREENBERG: That is a legal question; we object.

your honor.
THE COURT: I sustain it to that question.

Q Well, now, when you came —  went to Selma, when you went there, 
did you find that the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee 
was already there?

A They were there and had been working in the community for some 
two years, I think.

Q Better known as SNGC?



ThatTs right.
Uh, huh; and what other organizations did you find that was ther 
I didn’t know, other than the Dallas County Voters League, which 
is the strongest local unit in the City. And as I said, that is 
an affiliate organization of the Southern Christian Leadership 
Conference.
Is that the only two that you knew was there, was Student Non­
violent Coordinating Committee and the Dallas County Voters 

League?
That’s right; those are the only two I was familiar with.
All right; now, are those the only two organizations that have 
been promoting the mass meetings in Selma?
As far as I know; now, there may be other groups.
All right; now, who is in charge of the Student IJon-violent 
Coordinating Committee in Selma?
Well, the National Chairman is Mr. John Lewis.
And he has been in Selma; is that correct?
Yes, he has been in Selma —
Uh, huh.
—  all the —  all this period.
Do you know a man named Sirocco?
Yes, Frank Sirocco.
And what connection has he got with it?
I know Frank very well, but 1 don’t know his title with the 
organization; I know he is a staff member of ohe Student



73

Non-violent Coordinating Committee, but I don’t know the title 
that he has.
All rightr now, this man, Bevel, do you know him?
Very well.
What is his name?
Reverend James Bevel.
And where does —  where does he live at?
Well, at the present time he is spending most of his time, if 
not all of his time, in Selma.
And what —
He has lived in Atlanta, but now he is living in Selma.
And what is his connection with you?
Well, the Reverend Bevel is the Director of Direct Action of 
the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, which makes him a 
member of our Executive Staff and one of my closest associates. 
Now, how many of your Executive Staff and your closest associate 
as you call them —  how many —  will you name the ones that have 
been in Selma since January?
I would say all of our Executive Staff members on the whole, 
Reverend Ralph Abernathy, who is my closest associate in the 
Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Reverend C. T. Viviar., 
our Program Director —  1 mean our Director of Affiliates, 
Reverend Andrew Young, Executive Assastano, Reverend Bernard 
Lee, one of my Special Assistants, Mrs. Dorothy Cotton,
Director of our Citizenship Education Program, Mr. Kosea



74

Williams, Director of Voter Education and Political Action, 
and then numerous other staff members; I could name all if you 
wanted them, but I would say these are the Executive Staff 
members. Now, there are other members of our Field Staff, and 
we have a large number there, it would go —

Q How many of your Field Staff have been in Selma, in Dallas 
County, since January?

A I -- just to take a rough guess, I would -- to make a rough 
guess, rather, I would say between thirty and thirty-five.

Q All right; and how many, in your opinion, of the Student
Non-violent Coordinating Committee has been in Selma who are 
not residents of Selma?

A My impression is that they have had about the same number —
Q All right.
A -- between thirty and thirty-five or forty.
Q And those are the two main organizations that have been 

operating in Selma; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q What about CORE?
A CORE, I don’t think, has been operating in Selma up to now, bu 

Mr. Farmer, the head of CORE, did come down to participate in 
the march last Tuesday.

q Now, you invited certain people to come to Selma, didnTt you?
A Yes, I -- I did invite —
Q And among those was the late Malcolm X; wasn’t that right?



A No,
Q But
A No,

was
Q VJell

A —  w

invite —  I was in jail when he was in Selma.

so antithetical to the philosophy ox Malcolm X, or they — 

MR. GREENBERG: Let him answer the questions.

invited Malcolm X to cone to Selma when we were in the midst of 
a non-violent demonstration, and this says nothing about the 
personal respect I had with him; I disagreed with his philosoph|y 
and his methods.
All right; now, Dr. King, you say it is your philosophy that 
you believe in non-violence; is that right?

A ThatTs right.
q And you also say it is your philosophy that if any lav; or order 

of the court is against your conscience that you can violate 
that law or order of court; is that correct? .

MR. GREENBERG: Objection; he never said that.

Q I am asking —
THE COURT: Just a minute; that question is argument.

Go ahead.
Q Well, is that your philosophy?
A I have said often, and I have tried to write about it, that

non-cooperation with evil is as much as an evil as cooperation 
with evil, and I think there are times that laws can be unjust



?6

Q

A
Q

A
Q
A
G

and that a moral man has no alternative but to disobey that lav/!, 
but he must be willing to do it openly, cheerfully, lovingly, j 
civilly, and not uncivilly, and with a willingness to accept theI
penalty, with a hope and a belief that by accepting this and 
doing it in this way he will be able to arouse a conscience of 
the community over the injustice of the law and therefore lead 
to the bright day that everybody v/ill set out to change it.
All right; now, when you came to Selma you knew, or you learned 
shortly after you got there, that this case of United States 
versus Atkins was pending; is that right? That is the voter 
registration case in the United States Court;
That’s right; I learned about that after —
And you knew -- after you got to Selma, you knew that Judge Dan 
Thomas entered a temporary injunction there and specified how 
many people were to be registered per day by the Voter 
Registration Board, didn’t you?
ThatT s right.
One hundred; wasn’t that correct?
That’s right.
And you also know that --

THE COURT: Was that registered or accept an

application?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Register —  well, no, sir; not

register, Judge, application —  applications made out.
Q What I am getting at is processed, in other words, it was one



that correct?hundred to be processed by the Board per day; is 
Yes. as I understand the order, I think it was amended, as I — | 
How was it amended; do you know?
It is mv understanding that later he increased the number that j 
should be processed on an3r voter registration day.
But he —  but he also very carefully —  that order set forth 
that they would open up an appearance book there, and that 
everybody that wanted to register to vote would sign that 
appearance book and get a number: isn’t that correct?
That is correct.
And he specified that they would be present, the Board was to 
publish outside of its office the numbers each day; is that 
correct?
Yes.
And a person wasn’t there the first day could come back the 
second day; isn’t that right?
That’s right; uh, huh.
But if they missed two days straight, they were out: is that 
correct?
That is correct.
Now, do you know how many days the Voter Registration Board in 
Dallas County had been open before you got there in January?
I understand several days: I don’t remember how many.
Don't you know that the Voter Registration Board in Dallas 
County asked for ten additional days :.n January: don’t you. knov



, r\ w

ii
o

A

0,

7i

that as a matter of fact?
I understand that; yes.
Uh, huh; and don’t you know as a matter of fact that that Board 
was open ten days and had only thirteen Negroes apply?

A .7 S J- J- • C i let was quite understandable.
n All right, you •—  you know it, though, don’t you?
j \ I know that, and I know the reason.
Q All rignt, and then you led a march of fifteen hundred people

down there in one day on that
A That ’s right; yes.
Q Uh, huli; and prior to the time

had been other demonstrations
that Board?

A You you mean before -~
3efo:re you —

iown there, there

-- January'
Ye s v_L ^  O •

litely.
it this

Oh, 3*es; yos. de;
Uh, huh; and now, you also say that you know —  knew aboui 
injunction, this Federal Court injunction; is that right?
That’s right; uh. huh.
And you knew about Judge Dan Thomas’s injunction, didn’t you? 
That’s right; uh, huh.
And your lawyer —  does Peter Hall represent you?
Yes, he does; uh, huh.
And vour lawyers filed a petition with Judge Dan inomas to axlo.7



Si

A

A

yq

you to come to Selma the first time you come there to make a 
talk at Brown’s Chapel, didn’t he? Filed a petition with Judge 
Thomas, didn't he?
I am not sure ox all of the details ox that; I am —  i am —  
Well, you knew that there has been a State Court injunction 
issued -- 
That’s right.
-- against unlawful assemblies in Selma, didn’t you?
Yes.
And you ---
Well, we went on —
Wait a minuter and. jrou knew that that had oeen transxerred oo 
the Federal Court, didn’t you?
That’s right, but there was no ruling on it, I don’t think, at 
that time.
Uh, huh; but you —  and you —  you knew that your lawyers
petitioned the court to let you come to Selma at that cime,

didn’t you?
A I must —

MR. GREENBERG: I object to that.

A I am not sure of tnat•
iTR. GREENBERG: There was an application to dissolve

an order and that —  Dr. King is not a lawyer, he doesn’t know.

THE COURT: He has answered it; he said he wasn’t

sure



60

All right; now, did you know this; did you —  were you familiar 
with the fact that Judge James A. hare —ssuea an Older 
preventing ■—  enjoining demonstrators xrom blocking one sntranc 
to the Court House ana around the Court House ox Dallas County? 
Yes, I do recall this order, and I don’t think we have ever 
done that; I mean we didn’t practice that.
You blocked —  you completely blocked every entrance to the 
Court House of Dallas County, haven’t you?
Well, there have been times we had such a large number, ana the 
process is just so slow, that people had to stand somewhere,

and —
Hadn’t you tied up traffic where there could be no traffic
around that Court House; haven’t you?
Ho, I don’t think that is true; the day that we had the fifteen 
hundred, they were very orderly, lined up, and even on days like 
the day we had to stand in the rain and Sheriff Clark wouldn’u 
allow us to stand in the Court House, we stood out very orderly 
and didn’t block any traffic.
And do you --- do you remember -- have you marched on tnat Court. 
House and had demonstrators around that Court House aftei Judge 
Hare issued his order?
You mean around —
Judge James A. Hare; yes?
Oh, yes; we had people go down to the Court House.
After his order, and you led marches after that, haven’t you?



bl

Q

Well, I have led marches on a continual basis, because I thought 
via were moving clearly7- within the Constitution on that, ic was — 
And you knew that Judge Hare had enjoined you from coming to 
that Court House and blocking the entrance to that Court House,.

hadn’t you?
MR. AMAKER: Objection, your honor; the defendant — |

the witness was not named in that order.
THE COURT: Doesn’t make any difference, asking him

what he knew; you can answer it.
A

ft

A

ft

A

n

Yes; I have never —  and I have never been down when we blocked; 
the entrance to the Court House, because the line always started 
at the steos and went back, I forget the name of tne screet, 
but we never blocked the entrance, I would say on the whole, on; 
the demonstrations, on the marches that I have oeon on to the 
Court House, the entrances were not blocked.
You mean to tell this court that you have never blocked a irom
_ you and your group have never blocked the Lauderdale Screeo
entrance to this Court House, the Dallas County Court House?
I don’t recall ever blocking tne entrance.
But you occupied it all, didn’t you/
Hot all, because we were all pushed to the side, and ohere were 
oeriods when we were pushed around through the alley there on 
the side, but 1 don’t remember any time that the entrances and 
exits have been blocked, absolutely blocked.
How, has it ever been called to your attention that o. I. V.LViai



he has
blocked the Court Rouse entrance up there?
No, that hasn’t been called to ray attention that he —  
led marches down to the Court House.
All right, how many marches would you say altogether have been j 
made to the Dallas Countv Court Rouse?
That would really be a guess; I have no idea of the number. 1 I 
could simply say that —  that it has been a fairly large number:, 
but I don’t have any way to, at this point, give you the number 
of marches that have been held since January.
Now, you also were informed by Mr. Wilson Baker, the Director j 
of Public Safety in Selma, that City of Selma had a parade perm! 
statute, didn’t you; wasn’t you informed of that?
On the first day, one day we were marching, Mr. Baker asked if 
we had a permit to parade, and informed us that if we did not 
we were moving illegally, and I answered by saying that we were 
not parading, we were not blocicing entrances or egress or Ingres 
that we were not —  we didn’t have a band, we were not marching 
out in the streets, and that there was nothing within what we 
were doing that could be construed as a parade: but —
You interpreted the statute; is that correct?
That’s right —
Uh, huh.

And he informed you that if you marched, that you would be in 
violation of that parade statute, didn’t he



&3

A That -- that is correct, that —
Q All right.
A That we --
Q And you were allowed to march, you marched, and you were —  

marched some several blocks, and you had to go by the Civic 
Building, anyway, on the way to the Court House, didn’t you?

A That’s right: uh, huh.
q And when you got to the Civic Building, the City Police arrestei 

you, didn’t he?
A That’s right.
Q Uh, huh; and then you were charged with violating the City of 

Selma parade ordinance; is that correct?
A That’s right; uh, huh.
Q And you stayed in jail how many days?
A I think we were in five or six da3̂ s; I don’t remember the exact 

number now, but almost a week.
Q And î ou were offered bond, and your oond was set immediately 

after you were arrested, wasn’t it?
A That’s right; uh, huh.
q And you refused to make bond, didn’t you?
A That’s right.
Q And Reverend Abernathy refused to make bond, didn’t he?
A That’s right; uh, huh.

Now, after you got out of jail, you were thoroughly familiar wit 
the parade statute then, wasn’t you?

Q



A I was familiar with the fact that there was a parade statute and 
that we had --

Q Have you ever made application or any of your organisations to 
the City of Selma for a parade permit?

A Yes, we have.
Q When?
A I don’t remember the enact time or the enact day, but we did 

make an application.
Q For what date?
A I don’t remember the date, but we did get permission, I mean thj 

City gave us permission.
Q And the City Council of the City ox Selma never gave you 

permission to march on the streets of Selma, did they?
A I don’t know who gave it, whether it was tiie —  Mr. Baker or the 

Council at large, I mean the whole Council.
q  you have never gotten a parade permit from City of Selma in 

writing, have 3'-ou?
A Now, I am not sure if we got it in writing, but there was

there was a day, and 1 think it was the day that we carried tine 
largest number down, the day tnat we hao. some fiiteen nundred 
or two thousand people, and that day we had permission to march 
to the Court House, and it was my assumption that we had the 
permit; now, that is the only --

Q You don’t know; is that right?

64

That is the only time.



You don’t know?
*

Mo, I don’t have anything in writing on it.
All right, on the day that you said that you were going to march 
to Montgomery, did you have any parade permit that day from the 
City of Selma?
No, we didn’t have a parade permit that day.
And you -- now, as I understand you now, you came down Water 
Street, didn’t you, in the City of Selma? Isn’t that correct? 
That’s right; that’s right.
And you got on Water Street down there at the L. and N. Depot 
on Sylvan Street, didn’t you?
That’s right; uh, huh.
And that is some eight or nine blocks east of Broad Street; is 
that correct?
That is correct; uh, huh.
And you walked in the middle of the street, didn’t you?
At first we walked on the sidewalks, and I think we followed th|e 
sidewalk route until we got to the —  the street, or ratner to 
the bridge, and that was wnen we started walking in the streets 
and we did walk in the streets coming back from —  from the
march.
Now, listen, you walked all the way from the L. and N. Depot tc 
Broad Street in the middle of Water Avenue, didn’t you, and 
with signs, didn’t you, now?
Well, I don’t know what happened behind, but 1 am sa3ring in the



/
I

8b

front of the line we walked on the sidewalks until we got to 
the turn which leads across the bridge, and at that time we 
spread out a little more, and some were walking in the streets;j 
and coming back from the march we did walk in the streets all

j
the way.

Q I am going to ask you one more time; you, yourself, marched in 
the middle of Water Street --

ME. GREENBERG: I object.
Q —  that time from L. and N. Depot to Broad Street, didn’t you?

MR. GREENBERG: This is not only repetitious, but itj
is an insulting manner, and I just don’t see the point, your honor;J 
he asked it three times.

THE COURT: Just a minute; I sustain objection to
the manner in which counsel conducts part ox his interrogation.
All witnesses in this court, regardless of who they are, are to be 
interrogated with common courtesy.

MR. McLSAN PITTS: I am trying to, your honor, but
it is a point —

THE COURT: Make a little better effort.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir; it is a point I do want

to get over.
THE COURT: All right; all right; let’s get along.

We will keep order in this court or you will be excluded.
Q You did go to —  across the River Bridge, you say, when you got, 

out in the street; is that right?



&7

That’s right. 
All right; now, was there any traffic moving on the Ala bam a Rive r
Bridge while you were crossing there?
No, no traffic was moving at that tine.
And no traffic was coming south and no traffic was going north; 
is that right?
That’s right.
And how long did it take you to go from the corporate limits, 
which is Water Avenue, over to the traffic light and then back 
to Water Avenue, how —  how much total time elapsed?
You mean from the beginning of the march to the place we were 
stopped?
From the time you got on U.S. cC at Water Street and Broad 
Street to the time you got back --- 
Uh, huh.
-- to that intersection, how much time elapsed?
I would think about forty-five minutes or sc.
Forty-five minutes?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
And during that time there was no traffic at all; is that

correct ?
?hat’s right; that is correct.
Now, you have been on U.S. SO, haven’t you? You have ridden
backwards and forwards to Selma?
Yes.
And isn’t that a heavily traveled highway?



H nI

r\ 
,i H

Yes, it is heavily traveled.
And it goes through what is known as Big Swamp; Big Swamp, do 
you know where that is?
I don’t believe i do.

■

Do vou know where a series of bridges are through there, through ■ ia swamp land?

i A 1 have been —  i think 1 C i1

I! Q and tnere as tiiree ondges rig

A I am sorry; I don’t recall the
r\ You don’t attempt to tell u ilt S

ht there, isn*'

between Selma and Montgomery, do you?
A Ho, I really donTt know. As I said, Hr. Williams, our logistic 

man on this, said that there were several bridges, but I don’t 
recall the number.

Q And you —  you say that you were going to walk on the shoulder 
of the road; is that right?

A That’s right; uh, huh.
Q Row wide is the shoulder of the road; do you know?

Ho, I don’t know how w:i:de; _■ j _J- 0 is considerably wider in some

places than in others, but * j- is my information as it came to

Lie o iici. t i o is possible for pe:rsons to walk on the shoulder of
the road all the way to Montgomery with these slight breaks whe 
you must walk across bridges, and one can go across there, as 
I said earlier, one at a time.
Row, let me ask you this; an these meetings that you have oeon

n



I

,o. have you advocated at any time the boycotting of the Selma
Bus Lines;

A I haven’t, as I recall, made a specific speech or even statement 
on the bus line, itself, but I have endorsed the overall 
economic withdrawal program advocated by the Dallas County 
Voters League, and in the process I would certainly endorse the 
boycott of the busses, and I would take the wisdom and the 
judgment of the people of Selma on this, so I have heartily 
endorsed, although I haven’t made any speeches on it.

Q And have you been present where speeches were made that 
advocated the boycott?

A Oh, yes* I have heard speeches on that; uh, huh.
Q Who made those speeches?
A I don’t remember at the present time, and it was in mass meeting, 

and I can’t recall who —  who made the speech because we have — - 
we always have several speakers, but I have heard —  1 have 
heard it in two or three meetings.

Q Were those people from the Dallas County Voters League or from 
your organisation?

MR. GREENBERG: I object.
A I don’t remember.

MR. GREENBERG: This isn’t cross, and seems to be
diversionary; it is time consuming.

THE COURT: It is getting far afield. I have
permitted some background and some evidence on alleged brutality



90

and restrictions placed by the law enforcement officers upon their 
| demonstrations, and I will permit some additional examination on 
the extent of their activities in protesting and demonstrating, and 
; that is the purpose it is allowed for.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: That is correct, your honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead with it.

j| Q As I understand you, there is an active boycott going on; is
I

that right?
A On the bus
Q In Selma, of the bus line?

I A Yes, that is -- that is true.
I Q And there is also an active boycott going on of downtownj

merchants?
A That’s right; uh, huh.
| Q Uh, huh; and how long has that been going on?
; A I think about a month now.
Q About a month?
A Just about a month.
Q Now, all of that has gone to strain the relationship between th 

white people and the colored people in City of Selma, haven’t 
the}?-?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT; If he knows the answer to that, I will 

let him answer it.
A I don’t think so: I think these things have brought the

community to the point where it has to recognize the fact that



91

r\

A
Q
A

it has a problem. I think instead of bringing about divided 
relations, I think it has caused the community to look at itself, 
and this has been the purpose of our whole program. I think
that the only way you can get the problem solved is to get 
people to admit that there is a problem, and we have to dramatize 
it by engaging in our non-violent activities, and our boycotts 
are never to bring about estranged relations, they are not to 
put anybody out of business, they are to put justice in busines^ 
and to so arouse a sense of shame within the community of the 
silent that they will rise up and see a community responsibility 
to stand up against the injustices that exist.
So there is an active boycott in Selma?
Yes, there is.
Now. so -- now, let me ask you this; you know Felton Henderson? 
Felton Henderson?

Q Yes?
A Is he working with the movement in Selma?
Q i meant the Department of Justice attorney, he is a Department 

of Justice attorney.
A Oh, of course; yes, yes; he isn’t with the Department of 

Justice now, though.
Q Has he ever conducted any of those meetings?
A No, he hasn’t been to any meeting in Selma.
Q You -- that was the car, wasn’t it, that you rode in from 

Montgomery down to Selma, wasn’t it; wasn’t that che telton



92

Henderson?
Ij ' _MR. GREENBERG: May i renew my objection as to
I
repetitiousness.

THE COURT: I can understand —  I can understand your
!■ desire to get into that: is it pertinent, Mr. Fitts, to this inquiry

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Well, the only proposition I an
I getting --

THE COURT: I ask you that question as an officer of
j this court; is it pertinent to this inquiry?

MR. McLEAN PITTS: The only point I see it is
! pertinent as to whether he admits it or denies it; that is all I ami
! asking.i

THE COURT: Let’s get along, let’s get along; you
know it is not pertinent.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Well, what I am getting at, your
honor, is —  is —  here is what I am getting at; he has previously 
specifically denied it; I just wanted —

THE COURT: I have —  I have given both sides some
leeway in this thing to develop your background, and I understand 
maybe your anxiety to get into it, but it —  it is not even remotely 
pertinent to any issue in this case that I can see, is the reason 
I asked you that question.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: The point I am getting at is
whether or not he denied it -- denies that he did ride in the car 
down there with Felton Henderson: then it would be a matter that



93

would go to his credibility as a witness.
THE COURT: (Shook head to indicate negative reply)

Get along.
Q You say how many demonstrations --

THE COURT: Let’s not lose sight of the fact that
this inquiry concerns the petition to have this court adjudicate 
their constitutional rights with respect to a proposed march from —  
from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir.
THE COURT: And their right to march as a demonstra­

tion and to air their alleged grievances.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: As I understand, you limit us

solely to the —
THE COURT: I aim not limiting you in any way at this 

time, other than asking you not to lose sight of the issues in tne 
case.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir.
Q Now, I’ll ask you this: did you see —  on this march on this

day, March 9, did you see any of the Sheriff’s deputies anywher

A
Q
A
Q
A

there then?
I saw the Sheriff: I am not sure about his deputies. 
Where did you see the Sheriff at?
I saw him first as we crossed the bridge.

l assume

Where was he?
He was out In the —  well, he was on the highway when 1 first



94

saw him; he was in kind of running the reporters away or back 
f r om —

Q After you had crossed the bridge?
A Yes, that was when I first saw him; he may have been around 

earlier, but that was when I first saw him.
Q In other words, there was no big number of Sheriff’s deputies

or Posse around there at that date: is that correct; on that
date?

A I -- I really don’t recall.
Q You didn’t see them, did you?
A I don’t remember; I just assumed that they were there, but —
Q But when you got to the —  you -- do you know where the first

traffic light is on the Montgomery side of the Alabama River 
Bridge, which is called the old Montgomery highway?

A I am not sure: I don’t think we crossed —  came to a traffic 
light --

Q The point is --
A -- across the bridge.
Q —  you went to that traffic light, and that was where the State 

Troopers were; is that right?
A I am not sure about that, but I am —
Q And that traffic light is about a quarter of a mile on this sid

of the Alabama River Bridge, isn’t it?
A I would think so; if there is a traffic light there, I would 

think that is the amount of —
Q And when you marched, you marched right in the middle of the



road, didn’t you, from the bridge down to that —  to that traffic 
light, didn’t you?
After we crossed the bridge, we did move out into the middle of i
the road, and there didn’t seem to be any objection: no one eveh 
sought to stop us or spoke to us about that. When the march 
started that Sunday, there was an attempt to go right on the 
shoulder of the road, but a new set of circumstances had come 
into being by Monday, and very frankly, we were protesting 
crave injustice and terrible brutality.
Mow, prior to going out there on that road —  well, wait a 
minute; I withdraw that question. When you got up there to than 
traffic light, the only body up there was State Troopers; isn’t 
that correct?
That is right; I didn’t see anybody but the State Troopers.
I am talking about lav; enforcement, now, I am not talking about 
other people; that was the only lav; enforcement agency you saw; 
isn’t that correct?
I think that is correct.
And they were in blue uniforms, were they?
That is correct.
Did you see Sheriff Jim Clark there?
I saw him one other time, and I —  I don’t recall whether it wa
at the front of the line —  I mean when we were, the front, or 
pass -- as we passed him one more time in the process, I don’t 
recall where, but I did see him one more time after I saw him



96

at the foot of the bridge as we crossed that bridge.
But he didn’t take any part, so far as you know, out there at 
that traffic light, did he? Did he talk with any of you all or 
read any orders to you or anything, did he?
I don’t recall seeing him there, but I did see him again after 
we crossed the traffic light, and when I —  I mean after we 
crossed the bridge, and when I saw him he was pushing the 
reporters back.
Let me ask you this; you were present in meetings before this 
march and when —  did they call for volunteers to make this 
march; were you present then?
You mean on the day that -- 
Yes?
--- the march took place?
Or prior to that?
No; when I came to the church, everybody was ready to 
fact, the line had started assembling; we had so many 
we couldn’t even s^arL getting chem j.n cne cnm on, so 
had a number of people out on the playground, and the

march. In 
people thi 
that we 
church wak

still jammed and packed.
Now -- and you encouraged those people to make that march m  
defiance of this court’s injunction, didn’t you?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
I never —

THE COURT: I sustain it; that will be up to me to



97

determine that.
Q Did you encourage then to do it?
A I encouraged then to march, and in the process I never said 

anything about defying a court order.
Q And didn’t you -- when you got at the foot of the Alabama River 

Bridge, Mr. Stanley Fountain read that order to 3/011 again, 
didn’t he?

A That is correct.

n.

How, let me ask you this; did you make the statement to anyone 
that this was an unjust order?
An unjust law?
Unjust order?

MR. GREENBERG. Object.

MR. GREENBERG: That has been gone into quite
thoroughly, your honor.

THE COURT: I will permit this counsel, ho hasn’-
gone into it: overrule.
Q Did you make that statement?

ies, 1 made na c
it was made, we were 
time, and I am sure 1

,11 the pr 0cess; I
try p c- U u  ; diffici

lUr o_ some things
was quite upset

Q

in’t know to whom 
, moments at that 
, that particular 
)out this court

order.
How —  . Now, you said —  I want to ask you one more question; 
you said that this order —  that this route they followed was



98

the same route they followed on the previous Sunday; is that 
right?
That —  that is —  that is the information that came to me.
And, your honor, if I can correct one aspect of my testimony, a$ 
I thought it through, when the paper came to me, when Governor 
Collins gave it to me, I gave it first to Hr. Hosea Williams.

gave it to Reverend Young, butI said a few minutes ago that I gave it
as I thought it, it went first to Hosea
gave it to Reverend Young, and it was li
to me , i:This was the route we followed ;
So that you are just testifying to what somebody told you; is 
that right; to what Hosea Williams told you?
That’s right; Hosea Williams said —  “
So you as a matter of fact don’t know that that was the route 
that was followed Sunday?
Oh, nor I don’t knew that: I am just going by what he said.
Now, you have given 3-our support and your encouragement to the 
violation of the Federal Court injunction —

MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
—  or orders with reference to registration procedures, now, 
haven’t you?

HR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT: That concerns a matter of law; I take it

are talking about some orders Judge Thomas issued?
MR. MCLEAN PITTS: Sir? Yes, sir: am asking 11 he



99

cr

didn’t give his support and encouragement to the violation —
THE COURT: That will be up to Judge Thomas to

determine whether they have been violated; it involves a legal matt 
I sustain your objection.
Q You are --

THE COURT; I will let you inquire into it, but that 
is not the proper manner to do it.

MR. McLEAE PITTS; You say you will let me go into i 
THE COURT: Oh, yes: I sustain objection to that

question as it is phrased.
MR. lie LEAN PITTS: Oh, I see; all right.

Q Well, you were familiar with Judge Thomas’s court order or decree 
of injunction with reference to voter registration, wasn’t î ou?

A Yes, I was familiar with that.
Q Mow, have you ever at any time uttered any words or made any 

speeches that advocated not complying with that order?
MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT: Overrule.
MR. C-REENBERG: I think —
THE COURT: I will permit that.
MR. GREENBERG: —  as a preliminary, your honor,

ought he not to tell the witness in what respects?
THE COURT: Well, he asked him his preliminary.
MR. GREENBERG: What was the particular order he is

talking about?



100

A

THE COURT: He asked as a preliminary if He was
familiar with then; he said he was. I take it the question goes 
to any and all of them. Overrule your objection; you can answer it. 

Ho, I have never made a statement condemning that order; to the 
contrary, I have said that I felt that the order was a relatively 
good order —  not all that we wanted to see, but at least it was 
a step and a start in the right direction. And to demonstrate 
the fact that 1 felt that, there was some feeling in the 
community that we shouldn’t even sign the appearance sheet, and 
I persuaded my associates and others who felt that way that 
we should sign It; so instead of encouraging disobeying it, I 
came back in the community and encouraged the leadership to sign

v anri crn a] onp- wit t it and 1 think tne only the appearance sheeo and go along w..... 5

problem we face with the order as it stands is the fact that 
Sheriff Clark just won’t allow us to implement it.

Won’t allow you to do what?
implement the order; he just doesn't give us an opportunity to

implement the order. 
implement the order?
That’s right.
Now, you —  Sheriff Clark has never interfered with anyooay 
goilg in that Court House and signing that appearance book, has

he?
A I am afraid I have to disagree with you, sir.
0 well, can you state the occasions that Sheriff Clark lias ever t

r\

A

Q
A
Q



101

anything to do with preventing anyone from going in there and 
signing that appearance book in the —
By his verv presence, his harsh and brutal and vitriolic 
language, his constant intimidation, his physical brutalisationj 
of individuals, all of these things have served to discourage 
people from going in there: and the other thing is that he calls 
the numbers in a way and with a kind —  in the kind of manner 
that discourages people from even hearing the number called.
I have seen many people who didnTt even hear the numbers who 
were in line, and he obviously didn't want them to hear them.
Do you know -- do you know —  now, let's go —  go back just a 
bit: have you ever seen Sheriff Clark, himself, intimidate anyoru 
down at that Court House while they were trying to sign this 
appearance book, is that —  down there; nave you ever seen it; 
No, I mean as they would try to get in; that is where the 
intimidation takes place.
Now, that appearance book stays right in the -ront door, the 
main front doors of Dallas County Court House, doesn't it?
That is what I understand: I haven’t seen it.
And the Board of Registrars has assigned a man to sit there at 
a desk with that book, haven't they?
That is my understanding: yes.
And you -- all you have got to do is sign your name and —  by 
a number, and he hands you a card with a number on it, doesn’t

he?



102

A That’s right.
Q Uh, huh; and have you ever seen Sheriff Clam there intern ere 

with that procedure in any way?
A Oh, yes: I have seen him interfere with it.
Q Mow, what did he do to prevent that line from going in the Cour 

House?
A Well, he’s done many things; as I said, one is he has tried oO 

discourage people by a show of police force and the abuse of it.

Q I am asking you —
A I haven’t ever --
Q -- in your presence now —

MR. GREENBERG: Let the witness answer the question.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: I want his —
THE COURT: Restrict it to your presence; that is

what the question asks j-or.
■\ Yes: everv time I have been down there, they have had the Corn t 

House so —  I mean on the inside of the Court House so filled 
with possemen that if a person didn’t have great courage and 
fearlessness that can only come in a group collective situatio 
they wouldn’t even think of going in to register; the whole 
procedure is to discourage and to frighten people.

Q Now, do you know that day after day that that book is opened
down there, and there won’t be four or five people that will wa 
in there and sign that book with no possemen anywhere around;

do you know that?



103

A Well, we have had more than twenty-three hundred to sign it.
Q I am asking you, do you know that day after day that book is

open there, and there would be very few people come and sign th£ 
book at all with no possemen around at all?

A Well, I would admit that —  I don’t think Sheriff Clark has any 
opposition to a few Negroes getting registered; I think it is 
a fact that he is against the large number —

Q I didn’t ask you that.
THE COURT: That is not responsive; that is not

responsive.
Q The answer was not responsive.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Sir?
THE COURT: The answer was not responsive.

Q That is not responsive; I am asking you, did you know that that 
book was open down there da}r after day and a few people would 
come in and sign it, and there was no possemen nowhere around?

A Well, I don’t know; I can’t really ansxver that, because I don’t 
know. Every tine I have been around they have had a large numb

Q All right; now, what I want to get at is the times that you havje 
been down there there have been tremendous crowds with you, 
haven’t there ?

A That is correct.
Q And at that time you would see a lot of deputies and possemen;

is that right?
A That is correct.



104

MR. McLSAN PITTS: That’s all.
THE COURT: Redirect, Mr. Greenberg.

! REDIRECT EXAMINATION:
| BY MR. GREEI'IBERC-:
| q Rr. King, in describing your reasons for going on the Tuesday

-

march, the one which you marched to the point of brutalization - 
MR. P. H. PITTS: I object to the use of the word,

“Brutalization”; it hasn’t been any evidence other than the statement
that have come from that stand --

THE COURT: He is paraphrasing what the witness said

overrule.
Q

Q

A

The place you call the point of brutalization —
MR. C-REENBERG: I am just trying to describe the pla
THE COURT: All right.

_ you mentioned that you were motivated by a number of matters
some of which you described, but among them you said was a 
practical matter which you did not describe; what was the 
practical consideration?
Well, I had the practical problem that arose out of the fact th 
there were thousands of people in tne Selma community, many of 
whom had come from other sections of the country, but most ox 
whom lived in Selma, who were quite indignant and aroused over 
what had happened Sunday, and I felt that as a non-vxolent lead 
and with a deep passion to keep our whole struggle non-violent 
that it would have been unwise for that development to tame 
place with my not being in the leadership; I xelt tnat I nad a

C(



105

Q

moral obligation to the movement, to justice, to our nation, to 
the health of our democracy, and above all to the philosophy of 
non-violence to lead that line and keep that wait or the march 
or whatever we call it peaceful, and I felt that if 1 had not 
done it, the pent up emotions, the inner tensions and conflicts 
that were all latent at some points would have exploded into 
retaliatory violence.
Hove to another matter, Dr. King: there has been some reference 
to mass marches to the Court Housej do you know whether or non 
the persons in these mass marches were unregistered voters?

unregistered voters, by and large. There mayA Yes, they wore
ha ve been some
participated, but they went as vouchers and in order to cncoura 
others to register, but I can say that the vast majority of 
people who have participated an the marches have been
unregistered VOoGTS 0i Dallas Coulit •\T•

Nov;, a nother matter ‘0hat was brougkt  t o your attention by couns

was the fact M. U 0 ■>- rl•uiiau Quring the first ten days in January only

utij.r teen p e r sons appir —ied f or regiS oration .* do you know what was

the reason f or that 3 Dr. King 7

j _ i do; I know what I consider the reason, and that is tnat
after people have gone down over and over again to seek to 
register, they come to the conclusion that it isn’t worth it 
to go any more, and I have met numerous people in Selma and 
Dallas County who have told me that they nave tnea as many as



eight tines, and yet they have never been able to register
J_ G i'lILnk when people have been denied the right to vote for
years they do often lose r;lotivation, and I think :Lt is a r

o: .eadersiiip to arouse motivation and to grapp. w:.th cm
problem of apathy that can cone to a people who for years have 
not been able to register and vote as citizens.
How, move to another matter that was brought up an cross 
examination, other questioning, Dr. King* there has been some 
reference to the counties in which the movement has operated in 
recent months, and does that include Perry County as well?
AW it does.
And what form did your operation in Perry County take?
J_"C /Ook the same form as Dallas County. Our staff members went
into the county, organized the community, started having mass 
meetings and organised the community for moves toward the Cour 
House in order to register. And hundreds of people turned out 
on the registration days in Perry County, and of course hundred^ 
of people faced the same problem that we had in Dallas County 
by being arrested in the process.

MR. C-REEIJBERG: I think that’s all, Dr. King.
THE COURT: Mr. Smith, recross.

RE CROSS S iZAI- IINATI01I:
1R. SMITH:
I believe you mentioned that the citizens in Selma had pent up 

that in your opinion that could develop into anemotions



107

uncontrollable situation, yet in spite of that knowledge you 
directed these people into the streets in masses and numbers 
that you approximate three thousand?
Yes, and I did that feeling and knowing that when you give 
people an outlet, a way to channelise their resentment and 
their legitimate discontent, it is much better for them; when 
you just leave them sitting so often, and you don’t allow them 
to have a march here and there, if you can’t do it some way it 
is coming out in another way, and my whole philosophy has been 
that it is better to give people a creative, non-violent 
channel to express their discontent than to keep this pent up 
feeling there that can explode in violence if you don’t give 
them a chance to march and express this resentment in some 
way, so this was why I felt —
Did you give consideration to the other law enforcement problems 
of bystanders, of people that may be opposed to the demonstrator 
or marchers?
Well, I do, and it is not an easy decision and not an easy life 
to live when you have to lead a movement constantly facing the 
fact that you and your followers may face dangers of physical 
violence, but the non-violent movement says that in order to 
redeem the soul of the situation, of the nation, you must be 
willing to suffer and have violence inflicted upon you, but you 
don’t inflict it upon your opponent, and this is why I say that 
maybe there will be some blood in the State of Alabama before



10 8

we get freedom, but it must be our blood and not the blood of 
our white brothers.

q  You mentioned you had a prearranged parade route with Governor 
Collins, that you had a prearranged point to stop: is that
correct?

MR. GREENBERG: May I -- I don’t know if this is
proper to call thus an objection, but I think the characterization, 
11 Prearranged,i! is not borne out by the record; it was an eucnange
of information —

THE COURT: Overrule.
MR. GREENBERG: -- and I don’t know of any information

about what you would properly call prearrangement.
T HE COURT: Overrule.
MR. GREENBERG: Perhaps it is a semantic difference,

%■

but I think it is a difference.
THE COURT: Go ahead.

q in spite of that, why did you say publicly that your conscience 
compelled you to march, even if it disobeyed a Federal Court 
order?
Well, I -- it was my understanding after talking with counsel 
about it that this was an invalid order, and secondly, that l 
would not be. or we would not be violating an3r injunction or 
could not —  would not be cited ior contempt of couit ii we 
made the march. It was very obvious thao this human wall would 
be there; we knew that; there was no doubt in our minds at ail.



109

Ana as we discussed the whole matter for four or five hours, 
the night before, in the morning about five o’clock, and got 
back up in the morning to continue, all of us realised this and! 
agreed that we wouldn’t try to break through that wall, and 
consequently, we never anticipated getting to Montgomery, so itj 
could not be construed as a march from Selma to Montgomery, 
because we realized no matter how much we desired to get there,; 
that this problem of a police force with a show of power and
massive numbers standing there would block us.
The truth of the natter is you made the statement to the press,: 
you wanted the publicity, didn’t you?
Wanted publicity?
You made the statement to representatives of the press, and you 
wanted the publicity, the statement which you had made: isn’t 
that right?
No, I never make any movement —
Why did you make it to trie press?
—  for publicity, and 1 think —  i think it is a very 
degenerate leader who would leaa people in a movement liks uhis 
merely to get publicity.
If you didn’t want publicity, why —  excuse me.
X was doing nothing for the publicity; tne publicity will come
inevitably.
Why did you make it to the press if you didn’t want publicity?
I am constantly asked questions by the press, and it is very



3.10

difficult for me to avoid making statements to the press. 
When you were confined to the Selma Jail, didn’t you have 
stationery printed, uDr. Martin Luther King, Selma Jail," 
“City Jail, Selma, Alabama," and sent this out through the

or,
i

country?
Wo, I -- no, I didn’t do that.
You didn’t have stationery printed while you were confined? 
While I was in the Jail?
In Selma, City Jail?
No, not at all.
Designating your address as City Jail, Se3.na, Alabama?
No, not at all: no, that has never been done.
Where is the Federal Court situated in Selma, the building that 
houses them; do you know?
In front of the Court House.
In front of the County Court House?
That’s right: uh, huh.
Directly'- across the street?
That is correct.
The demonstrations which you had planned in Selma in part took 
place directly in front of the Court House, both the County 
Court or Circuit Court House of Selma and the United States 
District Court House in Selma, didn’t they?
Well, they were —  I am not sure if I understand your question;
they'- were designed for



Ill

|Q I am not asking —  excuse me, now, I am not asking what they
j!

were designed for.i
A Uh, hun.

j! Q Did the demonstrations in part in Selma take place in the public
street between tne United States District Gouro House and oke

,iil County Court House?
| A That is correct, in the —
|i o Large masses of people out there in front of the Court House 

parading around both the Federal Building and -- 
A In front of the County Court House mainly.
Q -- and County Court House; is that right?
A The County —  that’s right: the County Court House.
Q This was for the purpose of influencing the Federal District 

Court in Selma, who had jurisdiction of the voter registration 
suit; isn’t that right?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection, your honor: there is no -

A No, I don’t think —
THE COURT: Overrule your objection. He is asking

you the purpose: you say no?
WITNESS: No: that’s right.

Q That was not the purpose of it?
A No, that was not the purpose.
Q But matters were pending before that United S'oates District

Court in regard to the same matters which you were demonstratxr. 

or protesting about —



112

0

Q

A
Q

A
Q>
A
Q

A

mor
bi : 
Q

isn’t that correct?
THE COURT: —  and argumentative.
MR. SMITH: All right, sir.

On the prearranged stopping point of the parade of this past 
Tuesday, was that on the west or easo side oi the River Br.LQ.ge 
which U.S. CO crosses?
It was on the —  I guess the east side across one bridge.
But as you and the some three thousand people who were marching 
in the street approached the bridge, you were there confronted 
by United States Marshal who read to you the previous order of

THE COURT: That is repetitious —

this court --
That is correct; uh, huh.
—  is that correct?
That is correct.
But you oroceeded from that point to a point across tne bixdge 
and beyond some five hundred feet, did you say?
That’s right.

MR. SMITH: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Pitts, further cross examination.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir: I want to ask him a few

e questions.
MR. McLEAN PITTS:
In these marches that you have led down to tne Court House, you 
testified that those were made up mostly of people who were not



113

registered to vote: is that right?
That’s right: mostly of people who were not registered to vote.

Q And as a matter of fact, those marches had in there nonresidents
.

of Dallas County, didn’t they?
A Well, we had staff people in all of the marches to encourage, 

as I said earlier, and there were some registered voters, Negro 
registered voters of Dallas County, also there who were to serve 
as vouchers, so along with the large number of unregistered 
voters we have always had staff members of one of the two 
organisations and vouchers who were registered.

Q Well, now, as a matter of fact, you all brought in from
adjoining counties, there were people in adjoining counties 
that came in and got in some of those marches down to the 
Dallas County Court House, wasn’t there?

A This may have happened, because as I said earlier, we have been 
dealing with a twofold problem here, with the denial of the 
right to vote and with police brutality, and I think we have 
been protesting police brutality, we have had people from other 
counties, Indeed, we have had many of the young people of 
Selma, most too young to register, to engage in the activities 
to protest this. ,

Q And you all, your organization and your church and you, have 
advocated these juveniles staying out of school to take part 
in these demonstrations, haven’t you?

A Well, I think it has come —



MR. McLEAN PITTS: Sir?.
A Yes, we have -- we have had students to stay out, and we have 

given them our support.
Q And you knew, also, you have been informed since you were in 

Selma, that there were two city ordinances, one of the city 
ordinances prohibited any picketing or demonstrations around the 
Dallas County Court House when the Voter Registration Board 
was in session; were you familiar with that order?

A I became aware of this order after we started; we were aware ofj

114

THE COURT: Just answer yes or no, please, Dr. King.

Q But -- now, and were you also familiar with an ordinance of
the City of Selma that prohibited any picketing or demonstration 
around the Dallas County Court House while the Circuit Court was 
in session?

A There again, we became aware of this ordinance during the 
movement.

Q And on one occasion Sheriff Jim Clark came down when you were 
there and,read an order of Circuit Judge Hare commanding you to 
leave the court premises, wasn’t it?

MR. GREENBERG: I would like to object, your honor.
Q Premises —

MR. GREENBERG: 
involved in such questions as 
permission to do this kind of

That is a legal proposition that get 
Judge Thomas has specifically given 
thing and has enjoined Sheriff Clark,

3



j jand this witness can’t be expected to make a judgment as to the
|!I effect of one of these orders upon the other and the validity and 
|i so forth.

THE COURT: lour objection is argument; objection is
ij
j! argument; the question is whether or not he did this —

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: —  not the legal implications of it;

ij overrule.
Ij MR. GREENBERG: I thought the court should be aware|
1 of the fact that those municipal regulations don’t stand by 
themselves.

THE COURT: I am aware of it: go ahead.
Q You were familiar with those ordinances, weren’t you, and you 

were —  and Judge Hare, you were there when Judge Hare’s order 
was read by Judge —  by Sheriff Clark to the group in front of 
the Court House to the effect that he had Circuit Court in 
session and that picketing and demonstrations should cease aroun 
that Court House?

THE COURT: You are asking him if he were aware of
that?
Q Were you there when that order was read on that occasion?
A No, I was not there; but I was aware of the order, and I heard

it read over the radio several times.
Q And did you leave then after the order was read? 
A I was not there, as I said



116

Q Well —
A -- but some of my associates did not leave, maybe, but I was not 

there at a time when —
Q But you have been there when Circuit Court was in session and 

when the Board of Registrars was in session; is that right; is 
that right?

A That’s right.
Q And you knew about this ordinance, didnTt you?
A That is correct.
Q And you went there in violation of that ordinance, didnTt you?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection.
THE COURT: I sustain that.

Q Now, go back to the —  January, when this boycott —  I meant 
about this voter registrant —  Registrar, when there were only 
thirteen Negroes registered there for a period of ten days; 
during that period the Negroes were actively boycotting the 
Voter Registrars Board, wasn’t they?

A I wasn't aware of that, but this is not within my knowledge.
Q Now, there is one thing I want to ask you; on the 9th day of

this month, was there heavy traffic m  the area where you all 
marched across there, and was the traffic on the streets 01 the 
City of Selma heavy?

A You mean on highway SO?
Q Yes?
A I don’t recall how heavy it was, because as you rightly said,



I

it was cut off that particular time.
Q Well, your —  your marching across that bil--  bridge as you

did and coming back caused a severe traffic congestion, didn’t i 
it?

A Well, the traffic was cut off for the period that we were 
there; that is true.

MR. MeLEAK PITTS: Wait just a minute. That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Doar, any further questions? I

overlooked you.
MR. DOAR: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: When I went back around. Anything

further, Mr. Greenberg?
MR. GREENBERG: No, your honor.
THE COURT: All right. This witness will be excused

from the witness stand. We will recess now, gentlemen, xor the 
lunch hour. We will recess until one thirty.

(At which time, 12;10 p.m., a recess was had until 
1;30 p.m., at which time the hearing continued)

THE COURT: All right, call your next witness.
MR. GREENBERG: Excuse me, Judge, just one small

housekeeping matter: Dr. King would like to go to Birmingham to 
visit the minister who was struck and is dying of a brain injury. 
Mr. Pitts agrees to excuse him, and Mr. Smith agrees to excuse him 
so long as he will be back in the morning at the opening of court, 
with some allowance for making a plane connection.



115

HR. GREENBERG: We have a problem with another
witness. Now, we called as a witness, but did not call a witness, 
a Dr. Moldovan, who is from New York City, who was present at some 
of the events that occurred in Selma; we decided we don’t want to 
use him. He would like to go back, but apparently some of counsel

THE COURT: I have no objection to it.

ao want to excuse him, and i —  ± —  I don*'
know that they intend to call him or anything, and I wanted your 
honor’s ruling on that.

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir: -we do, Judge. I want to inquire 
into why the physician from New York was called to Selma: for that 
reason would not agree to excuse him.

THE COURT: I told you beforehand any witnesses that
have been subpoenaed and appear cannot be excused except by —

MR. GREENBERG: He has not been subpoenaed, your
honor, if that makes a difference, he was asked to —  he was sworn.

=>on svrnr’n ?

me nt.

THE COURT: He has not
HR. GREENBERG: He was
rP T-Hh)COURT: Been sworn
MR« GREENBERG: He was
rnTT-7-1i L iU COURT: All right,

: on you are responsibl

MR - SMITH: Yes, sir.
rn t JT? i ILlLi COURT: All right.
MR. HALL: Hay we use ;

;p nxm.



AMELIA PLATTS BOYNTON, a Plaintiff, having been duly sworn, testifi 
as follows:

DIRECT EilAHI NATION i
BY MR. HaLL:
q Would you please state your name, residence, and occupation?
A My name is Amelia Platts Boynton: I live 1315 Lapsley Street, 

Selma, Alabama; I am employed by the Pilgrim Health and Life 
Insurance Company as State Ordinary Supervisor; I also have an 
employment agency and insurance agency locaced 11 1 rannlm 
Street.

Q Is that in Selma, Alabama, also?
A In Selma, Alabama.
Q Can you tell us, Mrs. Boynton —

THE COURT; Just a minute, please; do we have a
Marshal? Go ahead.
Q What is the Dallas County Voters, if you know?
A Dallas County Voters League is an organization tnat is over

twent^'-five years old. Its purpose is to help to train and se( 
that Negroes become registered voters.

THE COURT. 1 lieu Udoor will have to remain closed

until we get
ahead.

through with this witness. All right, Mr. Hall; go

-- Mrs. Boynton?Q Go ahead and —  Mrs 
 ̂ Xt is an organization that is for the purpose of helping He,ro 3



120

to become registered voters, to arouse their interest in 
becoming first class citizens and to exercise their citizenship

q who is the members of this organization, Mrs. Boynton?
A Those who have become registered voters and many others who have 

tried for a number of times are members of the Dallas County 
Voters League.

Q Are all of these Negroes?
A These are Negroes.
Q Do they all —
A They all live in selma and Dallas County.
q Gan you describe for us, Mrs. Boynton, the activities oi the 

Dallas County Voters League beginning, let’s say, about 1963?
A In 1963 the Dallas County Voters League, after having tried to 

get the Negroes to register —
THE COURT: Just asked you the activities; he asked

you just the activities.
Q Just the activities?
A It is —  the activities are to train the citizens, the Negro 

citizens, how to fill out blanks, how to answer j_ntelligenuly 
and correctly the questions on the blanks, now to go down to 
the Court House and how to register.

q Tell us your position in this organization, please?
A I am on the —  I am a member of the Dallas County Voters League

and the Voters League has a Steering Committee, and I am on the 
Steering Committee of the Dallas Count}7, Voters League.



121

j Q, Can you tell us whether or no the Dallas County Voters League 
is involved with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference 
or any other organization in what is known as the Alabama project 

I A The Dallas County Voters League lias invited the South —  the 
Southern Christian Leadership Conference to help it, and we 
have become a part of the Dallas —  of the Southern Christian 
Leadership Conference; consequently, we working together, and 
we are a part of that organization.

|

Q Now, when did you extend this invitation to the 3.C.L.C.?
A This invitation was extended last year, either in the late fall 

or in the early part of the winter.
Q And as a result of this invitation, were there some initial 

meetings in Selma or some other place?
A As a result of this invitation, a few of us net with some of 

txie officials of S.C.L.C. in Montgomery, Alabama, and we asked 
them to please come over into Selma, because it is in the Black 
Belt, and having a large number we wanted them to try to 
speerhead the organization in that section in order that it 
might work out from there.

Q And you wanted them to help you do what, now?
A We wanted then to help us to get these people registered and

become registered voters.
Q And when you say, "These people," to whom do you refer?
A I refer to the Dallas County Negroes and Negroes of Selma.
Q Is there any other organization involved with you in this



122

pro iect?
A Yes: since T63 or ’62 we have had the Student Non-violent

Coordinating Committee to come in at our request to help us to 
get the Negroes registered.

Q Now this, then, is what is referred to as the Alabama project: 
is that right?

A That is the Alabama project, was the three organizations working 
together.

Q Are these efforts coordinated?
A The efforts are all coordinated.
Q I see. Now, with reference to attempting to get Negroes

registered and voting in Dallas County, what has been done by 
your organization or the other organizations working with you 
in the past two years?

A In the past two years we have had clinics, we have held the mass 
meetings, we have given instructions, we have taught them how 
to fill out applications, and we have taken them down in large 
numbers and small numbers, also, to register, and we have 
vouched for those who have gone down there.

Q Have you had any demonstrations?
A We have had demonstrations.
Q And will you tell us whether or no your efforts along these lines 

have been encouraged or discouraged by State or county people?
A The efforts have been discouraged by State and county officials.
Q And will you tell the court just what has been dene to discourage



123

3̂ our efforts?
A It is required in —  in Selma and Dallas County to have a 

voucher to —
MR. P. H. PITTS: I object and move to exclude tha

he has asked her what the officials of Dallas County have —  they 
have no control over the State laws.

THE COURT: Well, he asked what they have done,
whether they controlled it or not; heTs asked her what they have 
done. You can answer from your own personal knowledge; your 
objection is overruled.
Q Please continue?
A The —  those who are registered voters will have to vouch for 

those who go down and make an attempt to register. And there 
have been many blocks put up, or I might say interferences, 
and me personal!}' having gone down there to try to vouch for 
these people as well as a number of people going down having 
been blocked.

Q Are there other instances; have you been arrested?
A I have been arrested; I was arrested on the 19th of February 

of January, 1964.
Q Is that To4 or this Tb5?
A ’60 —  ’65.
Q 1965•
A Want me to tell you how —  what happened?
Q What was the circumstances of that arrest, please?



124

A As a voucher for those who go down, it is customary for me to gc 
down and stand, and as those people get ready to go, as the 
Negroes who are citizens go -- get in the line and go into the 
office of the Registration Board, it is my business to go there 
and vouch for them, filling out a certain portion of the 
application. On this particular time I went through the side 
door, and as 1 went in —  went into the Court House, there was 
an officer who is a Sheriff’s deputy standing there, and he 
said, "You cannot stand in the hall.-* I said, "I am there to 
vouch for these who are to be vouched for.1-' He said, "It 
doesn’t make any difference" —

MR. SMITH: We object to the conversation, if the
court please: hearsay.

THE COURT: Overrule; go ahead.
He said, "It doesn’t make any difference, you have to go in the 
alley." I went into the alley, and Sheriff Clark came in and told 
me to get out of there, that those were people there who had to 
be —  who were going in to register. I told him again —  I 
told him, also, that I was there to vouch for those who were to 
register. He said, "It doesn’t make any difference," says, "Yoa 
pet on back in the Court House." And when 1 went back into 
the Court House, I said to the person, to tms deputy, tnac, 
"Sheriff Clark said I must not stand out here, where am I to 
be, you said I am not supposed to stand in here?" He said, "Gc 
to the end of the Court House doom1' Then I went to the end of



125

the office, or the building, and there is where I sat for 
awhile. In the meantime, realizing that I had —  didn’t have 
enough money in the —  in the meter, I went out to put money in 
the meter. And as I was coming back, Sheriff Clark said to me, 
"Where are you going?" I said, "I am going into the Court House 
in order that I might vouch for these people." Ke said, "Well, 
you get in that Court House, and you get in there quick." I 
went into the Court House' I started up the steps, in fact, and 
when I started up the steps there were perhaps a half dozen 
SheriffTs deputies and members of the Posse: they said, "You 
cannot come in here." I said, "Sheriff Clark told me to come
in"; so he said, "Well, I am sorry, you can’t come in." aid

when I told him that I just went out to put money into the 
meter, he said —  one of them said, "Just go and ask Sheriff 
Clark about it." They came back and said, "He said yes, you 
can go in, but you have got to go around the alley." Then I 
had to go all the way back around the side and came in that 
half of the building coming back in: I went in because the 
people were standing up waiting for me to vouch tor them. At 
twelve o’clock one of the deputies who was m  the Court House 
in the hallway said to me, said to all of us in fact, "It is 
twelve o’clock, you can go home, and the office will open at 
two.- I went on the outside, and as I went In the out —  on tĥ  
outside, my car was parked opposite the Federal Building, I 
started down the street, and realizing that there was a rope t



126

Q
A

Q

block the pedestrians, and realising ± would nave to go so far 
down before I could cross, I turned around to come back to the 
intersection of Alabama Avenue and Lauderdale, when as I started
:own oner: f o  v* • r  c? o  i  r ■. 

\ j  - d i  O U J . . O .  . ‘Did I not tell 3rou to get in that 
Court House?" I said, •'! have been in the Court House at 
twelve o’clock." He said, “1 told you to get in that Court 
House and stay in there.*’ In the meantime I was headed toward 
my office, and I said, ;iI am going to my office now, it is alter 
twelve o’clock," and he said, "Don’t you say anything to me."
He ran to me, ran behind me, he grabbed me first by my coat 
around the waistline, he swung me around, and 1 continued to
say, "I am not- —  he say, "You. get in that line , I saia, "1 
am not in the line, i am on my way to the Court House —  to tne 
office as a pedestrian." 3o he said, "Don’t say anything to 
me; * he grabbed me then around the neck, and he shoved me for 
perhaps thirty feet toward the —  practically the length of the 
Court House, and he turned me —  he told the Sheriffs, ‘‘Arrest 
her, she is under arrest," and I went to jail, stayed there, wa^ 
given a criminal’s number, taken fingerprints.
You were arrested on this occasion?
j. WcLS •

I want to direct your attention to this previous date again, Mrfe. 
Boynton: were there —  we gather from your testimony there were 
some Negroes at the Court House for the purpose of registering 
to vote; is that correct?



127

A
n

A

A

Q

A

Q

A

A

Yes, there were.
Would you tell us how many Negroes were there, how they were 
arranged, were they waiting; approximately, in your best 
judgment, if you know, how many Negroes were there?
This was around —  this was dinner time.
When you first --
Fifty-five or seventy —  between fifty-five and seventy-five
Negroes were standing in line along 
House and near the entrance of the 
or in front of the Federal Building 
seventy-five.

the sidewalk of the Court 
Court House on the south sid 
, between sixty-five and

Were there any Negroes standing 
an alley just a moment ago? 
Well, at that particular time I 
alley to find out.
So you know there were sixty-fi 
there waiting to be registered? 
Standing in the line.

in the alley; you referred to

didnTt get to the end of the

ve or seventy Negroes standing

And your purpose for being at the Court House was to vouch for
these persons?
To vouch for them.
Tell us, Mrs. Boynton, is this the only occasion that you have 
been arrested by county officials or State officials in cnis 
voter registration drive in the last two years?
This is the first time I have been arrested.



126

This is the only time?
Yes.
Is there any other occasion that you have been confronted by 
Sheriff Clark during your voter registration activities, whether 
you were arrested or no?
There were several times that he spoke to me. Once going through 
the door he —  it is a double door on the south side of the 
building, and he was standing on one side of the door*, and as 
I approached the door, he said to me, “You get through that 
other door and go on in there.5' Well, I said, 5,I beg your 
pardon, what did you say?" He said, nDonTt run over me, you 
get in that Court House." Well, there were two doors, and 
naturally I wasn’t going —  I wasn’t going to run over him.
Now, on the occasion that the Sheriff aid arrest you, I believe 
you testified that he took you by the back of the neck —
Uh, huh.
-- or around the waist?
Yes.
And did he drag you along the street or push you along the street 
He pushed me along the street, along on the sidewalk, until he 
turned me into the hands of his deputies.
Into the hands of —  approximately how far did you say he pushec. 
you?
Approximately thirty feet.

Now, did you participate in the march or the walk acrossGood.



129

the bridge on Sunday, March 7?
Yes, I did.
Will you describe for the court exactly what happened?
We left the —  we left Brown’s Chapel A.M.E. Church approximately 
three thirty en route to Montgomery, Alabama, to protest to the 
head of the sovereign State the hardship of Negroes becoming 
registered voters. En route along the way at first we walked in 
groups of six, two by two in groups of six, and as we got to 
Alabama Avenue, Selma Avenue and Sylvan Street, the officers 
that ŵere along the way, some of them were possemen, some were 
deputies, and some were State Troopers.
Will you wait there just one moment; when you say, "Possemen," 
what do you mean?
There is an organized group that the Sheriff has organized, and 
I might say a few years ago there was an article in the paper ~  

MR. MeLEAN PITTS: Now, we object.
M R. p. H. PITTS: We object to that.
MR. McLEAN PITTS; We object to that.
THE COURT: Sustain objection.

When you refer to —  when you say, "Possemen," what do you mean 
An organized group that is under the supervision of the Sheriff. 
This is the Sheriff’s Posse?
Yes.
Well, go right ahead?
And as we -- as we got to —  to Alabama Avenue, we were asked 
to step up, because we were being guided by these law enforcemen



130

officers, and they said, "You donTt have to be in case —  in ju 
twos, but just Step up," so we stepped up, and we went on down 
to Water Avenue, turned west on Water Avenue, and when we got 
to the bridge, we began to wal.’.c then on the side in twos, ihat 
is on that —  that is where I walked. And when we got on the 
other side of the bridge, possibly a third of a mile or a 
quarter of a mile, vie were stopped then by an officer, State 
Trooper, as the State Troopers were on both sides of us all the 
way along until we were stopped. And the State Trooper read a 
statement saying that we could not go any further, that we were 
to stop there, and all of us must turn around and go back and 
must not go any further.
Then what happened?
Well, one of our leaders asked could he have a word to say.
You heard this; you heard the —
I heard that, myself.
All right, what was his —
He asked twice —
What was the reply to this request?
The request, pne second time he said it, which was right after 
a matter of moments after the first time, he said, “No, we 
you cannot make any statement; men, charge on them"; and with 

that --
Just one moment; did the person who made the reply identify 
himself; do you know who that person was?

$t



131

Yes, It was —  I do.
Who was the person?
That was Mr. Hosea Williams.
He made the request?
He made the request.
Can you identify the Trooper who made the repl}̂ ?
No, I am afraid I couldn’t.
Did he identify himself; did he say who he was?
I am sure he did, because he -- 
Did you hear that, you don’t recall?
No, I don’t recall.
All right, go right ahead and tell us what happened?
And when he said, l*Men, charge on them,” I saw these men when 
they put on their gas masks and came toward us; in the meantime, 
I remember having felt one blow, which was this blow here, and 
I remember an attempt to hit me a second time, and in that 
second --
Wait just one moment; how did they come toward you now?
They rushed us.
They rushed you?
They rushed.
Would you describe what they did before they charged the line 
or came toward the line?
They placed their gas masks on; when he said, 'Yten, charge them, 
they immediately placed their gas masks on, and this whole line



132

there was along the side from the bridge on up to where we were 
rushed to —  the part that I saw, I didnft see behind me, but 
that was perhaps twelve or fourteen of them 1 know I "could see, 
and they rushed toward us with their gas masks on. I remember 
when he hit me the first time, one of them, I can’t identify 
him, he hit me the first time here, and I held my hands up, and 
of course I wanted to throw my cap over my face, and then a 
second blow was here, and I remember nothing else. My glasses 
were —
You were knocked to the ground?
I was knocked to the ground.
You -- from that you became unconscious?
I became unconscious.
Mrs. -- I show you what purports to be Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3 
for identification, and ask you to look at it and tell me if 
you can identify it and tell us what it is?
This is me.
What —  what do you mean, ’’This is me”; is that you, actually, 
or is that a picture of you?
This is my picture; this is me when I was hit and the blow —  
Just a moment; identify what you are looking at?
I am looking a picture; I am looking at a picture.
Is that a picture of 3rourself?
I am looking at a picture of me.
Just one moment —  you know that is you?



133

A That is me.
MR. HALL: Gentlemen?
MR. SMITH: We have seen it, but I would like to loo!:

at it.

Q
A
Q
AJri.

Q
A
Q

A
Q

A
'--i

AA

I show you what purports to be Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 2 for 
identification, and ask you to look at it and tell us if you 
can identify it?
This is my picture.
A picture of you taken at what time on what occasion?
This is the picture that was taken when I was knocked out.
On what day?
On the —  on the 9th —  the —  the 7th.
That Sunday, the 7th of March?
Of March, 1965.
At or about the tine you were testifying to when you had been 
knocked to the ground?
This
Thank
1 for

s —  this was the picture that was taken at that time, 
you. I show you what purports to be Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 
identification, and ask you to look at it and tell us if

you can identify it?
This is the group that started to Montgomery.
Beg your pardon: that is a group, or is that some —  what is 
that, tell us what you are looking at?
This -- this is a group of Negroes who started to march to 
Montgomery on Sunday, the 7th of March, 1965.



134

Q You mean that is a group or do 3̂ ou mean that is a picture or 
photograph of the group?

A This is a picture; this is a picture of a portion —  it is not 
the whole group; it is a picture of a portion of the group.

Q Not the group, itself, but a picture of the group?
A Yes.

MR. HALL: May it please your honor, we are going
to offer into evidence these two pictures marked Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 
2 and Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 3 for identification.

MR. SMITH: Objection.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What is the basis for your objection?
MR. SMITH: You havenTt offered this?
MR. HALL: I haven1t offered this.
MR. SMITH: These are the two you have offered?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: You haven’t offered this?
MR. HALL: Two; those.
MR. SMITH: May I on voir dire ask the witness one

question?
THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION:
BY MR. SMITH:
0 In regard to this Exhibit which is marked Plaintiffs1 exhibit 2, 

is this a photograph of you in a state of unconsciousness?



135

A
Q
A
Q

It is, because I remember being knocked out.
Do you state that to the court';
Yes, I did.
That this StateTs Exhibit 2 depicts you in a state of 
unco ns c iousne s s?

MR. HALL: May it please your honor, we don’t
remember —  well, I withdraw that.

the COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Smith* voir dire examinat
Will you state to the court that this State’s Exhibit 2 depict 
you in a state of unconsciousness
This is the picture of me, and this is the picture —  this is 
the place where I was struck unconscious.
You are unconscious as shown and depicted in this photograph? 
This is my picture.
Not asking you that; I am asking you whether or not you are 
unconscious as shown in this Exhibit, this photograph?
Yes, indeed I was.
You were indeed unconscious at that time?
I was unconscious; yes.
Is it not a practice or a policy or procedure taught in

A

ions that demonstrators —
THE COURT: Nov; you are g
MR. Q“ T T m  7 T <• 

Q i - i J L  Jl i  i  • Yes, sir.
THE COURT: -- not to the

s to them?

?.t -

o the admissibility; what are



- j o

MR. S'1!ITK. I withdraw the objections.,
THE COURT: 2 and 3 admitted without objection.
MR. McLEAII FITTS: Wait a minute, I object to it on

I object to it on behalf of the defendant, Clark, on the ground 
that there is no connection between the defendant, Clark, and any
of these pictures h.ere.

m  1 rrp 
1 rixii COURT. xxl right.
7..TP i  lit • HALL 2 We will connect it up, your honor.
n T r * 1 a. i ill/ COURT; 2 and 3 vrill be admitted; go ahead,

i ial i«
T.'MD J.-iib • MeLEAN PITTS: We except.
MR. HALL; Thank you, Judge.

DIRECT EICAI1INATI0H ( cont * d) :
BY MR. HALL:
Q Mrs. Boynton, 1! show you PlaintiffsT Exhibit 3, and ask —

you to tell us v/ na t ~s described in that photograph?

A This —  this pi.cture describes me lying unconscious on the
ground during the time that we were going from Selma to
Montgomery on the 7"hh of March --

THE COURT: That is repetitious.

A -- 1965.
THE COURT: That is repetitious, Mr. Hall.
MR. HALL: Repetitious; thank you very much. May

it please your honor, we offer into evidence Flaintiifs* nxhibl0 

1 , and I hand it to the defendant.



137

MR. SMITE: is this the same Exhibit you lustJ kJ

mentioned or identified?
xiR • I .AlL :
TEE COURT;
MR. SUITE:

Any objection to it? 
No objection.

'.TP IAN PITTS: i don’t have any objection to the
picture here.

n T “ * “1 -|
W  .L  J -J L

MR. HALL: No objection
rpi t *T7ii rilli COURT: Any object!

T.,fP r ilu • SMITH: No, sir.
T ./HDi ' i l ’w • MeLEAN PITTS: No,
m  t rm 
i  iiJ-j COURT: Number 1 w:h

ook c11 Fla Int i x i sf ±.r:hib.
De admitted. m  evidence.
1 and describe what that

pi cture shows?
TILE COURT: She already has —
ME. MeLEAN PITTS: Me object to that.
HR. HALL: Your honor, may I say this?
THE COURT: She has already said what it purports to

aepict,

oriny on this

T-TT?.i - i i  - • HALL. Yes, sir
rpT-H?i n COURT: r n 0 j-1 - ,.<Jl v is
T..TO HALL: Maybe 30
Lt wao the longest -
THE COURT: Picture
MR. McLEAN PITTS:

ie group on the march.



135

HR. HALL: \1e have no more further argument on that

point.
Did you —  were you treated at a hospital after you were picked 

up on Sunday?
I was treated at the Good Samaritan Hospital.
What were you treated for?
I was treated for shock, for being gassed, and for cruises, i 
imagine, because they did put something on my arm and on the 

back of my neck.
When you say, "Gassed,” what type of gas?

A

0.

rPVi-i o I  I lJ .O is tear gas that was thrown during the time that they

advanced on us.
How did the gas affect you?
Well, I was unconscious from the —  from tne hit, and tnen the 
gas got into my stomach, and I had to be gagged, or helped oo 
be gagged in order that I coui-d bring it up.
Did you require considerable medical attention?
They gave me first aid from the time I remembered, and during 
the time I was at the hospital they gave me first aid. Tnen 
when 1 was carried home, some of my friends gave me urso aid. 
Now, let me ask you this, Mrs. Boynton: directing your attentioj 
back to the bridge, as you approached the bridge, going across, 
did you at this point or at any other point see Sheriff Clark 
or any of his deputies or any of them, members of his Posse?
As we were across the bridge, I remembered having seen men in 
khaki pants that was used usually by some of the deputies or



pcssemen.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Now, we object to that as far as

being evidence that Sheriff Clark’s men, there is lots of folks 
wear khakis, unless it is shown to be deputies of —  or either the 
Posse.

THE COURT: Overrule.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We except.
THE COURT: You can examine her on it.

Q Go right ahead; did you at any time see Sheriff Clark, himself;
you know Sheriff Clark, don’t you?

A I do.
Q You. are a resident of the City of Selma?
A Yes.
Q And Dallas County. You know him when you see him?
A Yes.
Q Did you see him on either side of the bridge on Sunday, May —  

March 7?
A I saw him on the other side of the bridge in a car.
Q When you say, “The other side,” do you —
A That is --- that is en route to Montgomery; it was not in the 

city, but it was just across the bridge.
Q After you had crossed the bridge?
A After we had crossed the bridge.
Q Then you saw the Sheriff over there in a car?
A In a car: that’s right.

139



140

Will you describe for the court his activities at the time you 
saw him?
I only saw him in the car; the car was moving along towards the 
--- well, toward Montgomery.
Did you see any members of this —  his Department on that side 
of the bridge, persons you could identify as deputies or members 
of his Posse?
I couldn’t identify them personally, but they were members of 
the Posse.
Did you participate in a further march?
I did.
Or walk across the bridge after March 7?
Yes.
Mrs. Boynton. Will you tell us on what date that occurred?
On Tuesday, March 9, I participated in a march to continue the 
march to Montgomery; there were perhaps three thousand people 
in that group, and I wasn’t as near the front as I was in the 
first march. We proceeded toward the bridge, and after getting 
Go right ahead?
After getting to the bridge —  after getting to the bridge, or 
before crossing the bridge, we were told by an officer, the 
name of the officer I don’t know, in fact 1 don’t know who it 
was, but it was an official, that we were not to go across the 
bridge, we were not —  we were asked to turn around and go back 
to the church. But we proceeded -- I couldn’t hear all of the



14 1

conversation; we proceeded and -- until we got to near the ligho 
on the other side of the Alabama River, and it was there v/e were 
stopped again by an official who was speaking through a mike, 
and we v/e re told to turn back, that v/e were not to go any 
further. It was there that v/e —  that Dr. Martin Luther King 
asked if he had something to say, and it was there that he told 
them that, "We would like to have a word of prayer.1'

Q You heard this, yourself?
A I heard that.
Q All right, tell us what you —  what happened?
A We knelt, and the two people prayed: one was Reverend Abernathy, 

and the other was a v/hite minister; then v/e sang. And later on 
when we finished, we turned around and v/ent on back oo tne 
church.

Q Was there any violence on this occasion?
A There was no violence whatsoever* this was a mixed group.

MR. HALL: I believe thatfs all.
CRO S S EXAMINATI OK".

BY MR. SMITH:
Q You say there was no violence on Tuesday of this week —
An Ho violence --

Q on the attempted march?
A -- on Tuesda?/ with reference to the march.

Q But there had been violence the preceding Sunday, on March 7?

A There was. They had the same tvnoe of people on both sides v/her



142

we marched Tuesday as they had Sunday with tear clubs and billy 
clubs.
You are one of the plaintiffs that filed a complaint in this 
court -~
Yes.

is that correct?
Yes.
And you were served with a copy of this court’s order dated 
March 9 on the morning of March 9, were you not?
I was served with the subpoena; I was served en route on this 
march on the 9th.
When were you when were you served?
1 was served between the church and Alabama Avenue.
Who served you?
One of the Marshals, I imagine.
Did you read the order of the court?
I did not read it, because when I was hit my glasses were lost, 
and I did not read it at that time.
Well, I thought you were served before you were hit, weren’t yoik? 
I had no —  my glasses were lost on Sunday when I was hit by onp 
of the State Troopers.
Well, you didn’t know what was in the court’s order?
I had heard what it was, and I knew I was not supposed to march 
according to that, because I handed it to someone else and askefcl 
them to give me the gist of it; at that time I had alreadv



143

Q

A
Q

A

Q
A

Q

A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

started, I was en route, to Montgomery.
I am talking about now when you were marching down the streets 
in the City of Selma —
I was marching down the streets.
—  did you know at that time you were net supposed to march 
under the order of this court?
Only while I was en route to Montgomery.
Your understanding, then, that you were only prohibited from 
marching when you were en route to Montgomery —
That is the only time.
—  is that right?
That’s right.
Well, didn’t you just say that on Tuesday, March 9, you 
continued the march which had commenced on Sunday, March 7? 
This was on Tuesday when I received --- 
I understand that.
That was on Tuesday when I received this from the Marshal’s 
On Sunday, March 7, the attempted march was from Selma to

hani

Montgomery; isn’t that right?
That’s right.
That was -- that was the purpose of the march —  
That’s right.
—  to march from Selma to Montgomery?
That’s right.
And did you understand the purpose of the march on Tuesday to



14 4

be a continuation of this march?
Not until I received this order.
So you changed your interpretation of wn&t the march was when 
you received the order; is that -what you tell the court?
I was en route to Montgomery when I received the order.
VIere you waiting?
Yes, I was, and we had stopped because we had stopped at the 
"intersection, and it was there thao a l-lai shal Iianded me 
Did you stop walking when the Marshal handed you the order?

Yes, I had stopped.
You pulled out of the crowd?
No, I did not pull out.
You did not?
He handed it to me while 1 was in one crowd.
While you were in the crowd?
Yes.
What did you do then?
i sai "Thank you."
Did you continue to march?
Yes, I did.
Dut vou knew at thac txme tne court had ordered you not to marct

No, 1 hadn’t had time to read xt.
But I thought you said you knew what was in one order .
I read it en route, or had it read to me; 1 had it read to me 
en route, a portion of tne oraer.



145

0Q Did you know at the time you were served what was in the order
did you know at the time you were served what was in the order

A Ho, I didn’t.
Q You did not?
A Ho.
Q How. you say the Dallas County Voters League is organised for 

helping the people to become voters —
A Right.
Q —  in Dallas County?
A That’s right.
q And this organization lias more or less merged or participated îi 

the Southern Christian Leadership Conference: is that correct?

A Y7e are affiliated with it; we are a ;part of it.

Q You are a part of it?
A Yes.
Q - T l -L  V—. you a registered voter in Dallas County 9

A Yes. I am •

Q When. were you registered to vote?

A Appr'oximately twenty-three — two or three years

Q Did you have any difficulty n registering?

A I ha.d no T * r »  «'■* •d n  i-iculty at aj-j- * -L simpl}r took the oa
! Q 'lo —gnecl my name, and I bel-< ove that was al1 .
Are you familiar with the Federal Court case that was filed in 
the United States District Court styled United Suai.es versus

Atkins?



/

l/,6

A jl G 3 •
Q has that filed approximately five years ago? Or when; i an

asking you?
A I thought you asked me how long have I been a registered voter;

oh, around twenty-five, around twenty-five.
A Were vou fan'liar with this Federal Court caso'?V-/ •

Yes.
aH How long have you been familiar with it?
A Ever since it ’was issued.
G

0

Q

And how long ago. in your judgment, would that have been?
How long ago what?
How long ago was it before the court issued it?
1 think it has been issued sometime last year.
Did it enjoin the Dallas County Board of Registrars from 
discriminating against Negroes in the registration process in
Dallas County?

A If it did, it wasn’t obeyed.

Q It what?
ri. It was not obeyed if --- if the Federal Government had enjoined

the reg-- the Board of Registrars from discriminating against

Negroes, it 'was not obeyed -- obeyed.
A Board of Registrars didn’t obey it?
A H o.
q Did anybody petition the Federal Court m  regard to their 

disobedience of the order?



1 47

A IGS.
ME. DOAR: If the court please, these matters are

before Judge Thomas in contempt action against the BoardJ 1 don’t 
see how this witness can know all the details of that proceeding. 
I think the questions are immaterial.

THE COURT: Well, as far as she knows, did anyone
petition Judge Thomas tc ask that his injunction be enforced: you 
can answer that question if you know.
A I know the order was asked to be enforced, but as far a 

legal side of it, I do not know.
s the

You do not know?
A That is in the hands cf the lawyers.

Q After the court entered the order, did it require a voucher for

registration?
A Yes, we still have vouchers. 
Q Still have a voucher?
A Yes.
Q Nov;, you say t

was also inviti
A That’s ri»-•» W ■*—.gnu.
n Did this group

League, how to stage mass demonstrations?
The Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee worked with us 
and under our supervision.
They tell you how to protest?



14 o

A We —  they helped us to get our people prepared to register.
Q Well, you mentioned, though, that you had clinics, and ĵ ou also
A Yes.
Q —  mentioned that you had mass meetings —
A Hass --
Q -- and that you had demonstrations?
A We had clinics about seven or eight years ago.
Q That is not my question --
A It is not if the clinics
q  nay question is, did the Student Non-violent Coordinating

Committee teach your group, the Dallas County Voting League, 
how to conduct mass meetings and how to conduct demonstrations?

A The Student Non-violent —  Non-violent Coordinating Committee 
heloed us to carry on the program that we had had in teaching 
them how to register, how to have clinics, and we took on a new 
part, and that is to be able to go down in large numbers to try 
to register, because as it had been said, and as you know, they 
said we didn’t go down enough, so they helped us.

Q Student Eon-violent Coordinating Committee told you you needed
to march?

A We had -- no.
It didn’t?

A No.
Q Well, I thought you said you too;c on a new part?
A We made the decision, ourselves, with the Student Non-violent



149

Coordinating Committee.
Did they suggest that you do this?
The Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee worked with us 
on all of these projects.
How did they tell you to conduct the mass demonstration or march' 
They did not tell us anything; we got together and worked out 
the programs that we load; they didn’t tell us.
Didn’t tell you?
No.
You worked together?
We worked together.
What program did you come up with, as to how to demonstrate?
The programs to demonstrate —  and it did not come from —  the 
objective was first by the student —  not by the organization, 
by Selma, Dallas County young citizens, who said that they were 
tired of reading about tarnation without representation, and 
this is what was said by them in a meeting, they were tired 
reading about taxation without representation, during the Boston 
Tea Party and what not, and why is it their parents could not 
register and vote —  “They didn’t do anything about it, so we 
are going to make an attempt to do something about it; we are 
going to march.1;
Did they tell you to disobe3T the law of the City of Selma?
I am telling you what they told us.
Well, I am asking you did they tell you to disobey the laws of



the City ox Selma?
A When the City o-f Selma was —  when it comes down to registering 

and voting, it is a federal law.
THE COURT: Mrs. Boynton, do 3rou understand that

question? He is asking you —
WITNESS: No, sir; I don’t.
THE COURT: —  what the Student Non-violent

Coordinating officers advised you to do?
A They didn’t advise us to do anything.
Q In regard to obeying or disobeying city laws?
A They didn’t advise us to do anything.
Q Did they tell you how to demonstrate?
A We worked out our program together.
Q You worked out the program together?
A Yes.
Q Well, what was the course of action that you \\rorked out in 

regard to demonstrating?
A The course was that we will get together, and we would train 

these people how to fill out the blanks.
THE COURT: All he is asking you about is demonstrat

ing, not filling out blanks.
A Well, we had to go down in large numbers, that is the

demonstration he is talking about, oecause than is tne only7- one 

I know.
q  Did you decide to bring in people from Montgomery County and

150



surrounding counties and from out Ox the Stare and irom t hr ought ii 
the nation if you could attract them; was that the plan?

A That wasn’t under the —  under the Student Non-violent 
Coordinating Committee.

Q Was it done under anybody?
A Yes.
Q Under whom?
A It was done under the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
Q Dr. King instructed you to do that?
A It was done under the organization of the Southern Christian 

Leadership Conference.
Q Did Dr. King instruct you to do this?
A The organization of which we are a part.
Q Did Dr. King instruct you to do this?
A This was worked out by the organization.

MR. SMITH: Judge. I believe she understands the
question.

THE COURT: Do you understand that question?
WITNESS: I just —  he said did Dr. King tell us to

do --
THE COURT: Answer -- just a minute.
WITNESS: The organization —
THE COURT: No, just answer the —

A No.
Q He did not?



152

No.
Did he, Dr. King, instruct you on the methods of planning a march 
or a mass demonstration and his theory of non-violence and without' 
the use of aggressive weapons?
In the meeting he made the suggestion.
Suggesting what?
That we have non-violent marches.
And call people from wherever you can call them —
Yes.
-- to participate in this march -- 
Yes.
-- is that correct?
Yes.
Did he instruct you to provoke violence?
He instructed us not to provoke violence.
Not to provoke violence?
Not to provoke violence.
Did he instruct you to disobey the city laws?
He instructed us to try to obey all laws.
All laws?
All laws, Federal laws where Federal laws are especially.
Federal Court orders?
Laws.
What?
Laws, orders, law.



153

Q Did he instruct you in the —  in the mass demonstration attempts 
that when dispersements were required or asked of you, that is, 
when somebody in apparent authority asked you to disperse, to 
fall to the street or to the sidewalk —

A No.
G
A
Q

A
G
A
G
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

A
Q
A
Q
A

And remain there limp?
No.
And be carried to the city jail in a state of limpness, so to 
speak?
No.
That is not right?
That is not true.
Well, was that practice carried out? 
I haven’t heard of it in Selma.
You haven’t heard of anybody —
I have not heard of it in Selma.
-- anybody falling to the street?
I have not heard of it in Selma, anybody being carried out 
Were you unconscious as shown in this Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 
photograph —
I don’t remember —
—  or were you falling limp?

anything that happened; I must have been.
You must have been what?
I must have been unconscious.

2 the



Limp or unconscious?
I must have been unconscious, because I know nothing of what 
happened afterwards.
Do you know Dr. MOLDORAN. of New York, a physician?
I have an idea who that is.
When did he come to Selma?
I don’t know.
Well, what is your idea of who he is?
A doctor came to the house to see me after I was taken home, and 
I presumed it was he.
Did somebody in your group call a physician from New York to 
come to Selma in regard to these planned marches?
I do not know.
You don’t know?
No.

154

You know nothing about it?
No.
But a New York physician did come, didn’t he?
jc   I imagine it was —  it was a —  not a citizen, not a
physician of the city who came.
Did this New York physician treat you?
I don’t know who treated me, but he came to the nouse to see hod
I was getting along.
Isn’t it a fact that street demonstrations such as the ones you 
participated in have been planned or considered by you and your



155

group to be unsuccessful unless there is some act ox violence; 
isn’t that a fact?

A Isn’t it what? Will you state —  make your statement again?
Q Isn’t it a fact that mass demonstrations which you have

participated in and which you have heard planned are considered 
by you and your group to be unsuccessful unless they provoke 
violence?

A I am afraid you are wrong.
Q They are considered successful whether they do or not?
A I am afraid you are wrong; we have never had anything like this 

to happen before.
Q Anything like what?
A Like having tear gas, going to Montgomery and having been stoppe 

before.
Q And your group, that is, Student Non-violent Coordinating

Committee, S.C.L.C., and the Dallas County Voters League, do not. 
advocate violence of any type?

A We do not advocate violence of any description, form, or fashior:
Q But you do feel it is proper for you to bring your grievance in- 

regard to voter registration on to the streets of Selma and 
Montgomery and other places in the State of Alabama?

A Our grievances were to be brought to the Governor who sent the 
State Troopers in there with violence.

Q, By marching —
A The only violence was on their side.



15 6

By marching from Selma to Montgomery?
Right.
All right, just one minute. Did you know that the Governor of 
Alabama requested in a public statement that this march which
was planned from Selma to Montgomery not be conducted because 
it may jeopardize the safety of the marchers as well as the 
motoring public and other citizens in Alabama?
Yes, but we had mapped out our plans how we were going without 
jeopardizing the lives of the citizens.
And you planned to do that regardless of the consequences?
We were going ---•
Is that right?
-- as pedestrians.
And you continued to march, even though this court on Tuesday, 
March 9, entered an order enjoining you from attempting to mar cl: 
from Selma to Montgomery —
Yes.
--- is that right?
Ye <
You felt compelled to disobey this court’s order?
xes.

MR. GRAY: Your honor, we object.
MR. SMITH: I have no further questions,

[t is argument.r IR. GRAY:
; _r« PittsCOURT:



BY MR. 1I CLEAN PIT”

Q You say that ■
existence how

A The Dallas Co’
twenty-five y<

Q Is 'that a cor;
A It is not.
0 Now, have any

A
Q

A
Q

Q

A

League ?
There are none.
There are white people in Dallas County that can’t vote, aren’ 
there?
They are invited; if they would like to be a member, we would 
gladly accept them.
You say that you were served with this court order while you 
were en route to Montgomery* is that right?
Yes, on Tuesday, the 9th, en route to Montgomery.
All right, but as I understand you, you had never got out of the 
corporate limits of the City of Selma?
No, I hadn’t.
And as I understand you, you were on Alabama Avenue when the 
U. S. —  Deputy U. S. Marshal served you?
Well, I won’t say Alabama Avenue; the group had stopped there, 
and we were —  I was a good way behind, so I was between the
church and Alabama Avenue



15$

The church and Alabama Avenue, on Sylvan Street?
On Sylvan Street.
And that is about two blocks, isn’t it?
Perhaps.
After you left the church; isn’t that right?
Perhaps.
So you were served then, and then after the route —  route that 
you took, you went down to Water Avenue, didn’t you?
We did.
On Sylvan Street?
We did.
Now, when you got on Water Avenue, did you walk on the sidewalk 
or you walk in the street?
I really don’t remember; wherever the group was, I walked behind 
them, walked —  took the same route that they'- took.
You don’t remember where you walked on Water Avenue?
I know I walked a portion of the time on Water Avenue on the 
sidewalk and a portion of the time in the street.
All right; now, as you were going out from the L. and H. Depot - 
that is on Sylvan Street, isn’t it?
Yes.
And that is right at the foot of Water Avenue, isn’t it?

Yes.
And that is where 3̂ ou got on Water Avenue, didn’t yon?
We —  we walked —



159

Q Isn’t that right.
A —  in that direction, and I think it was.
Q Ail right, from that point right there up to Broad Street or

the Edmund Pettus Bridge, you walked right in the middle of 
Water Avenue, didn’t -you?

A We were directed by the officers —
Q I mean, you were in the middle of Water Avenue, weren’t you?
A I am quite sure they directed us —
Q I am just asking you —
A Yes, I am sure.
Q —  were you in the middle of Water Avenue?
A I guess so, wherever we were directed.
Q All right, and it was —  and Water Avenue is a pretty heavily 

traveled street in the Cit}?- of Selma, isn’t it?
A It was cleared by the officers.

Q It was cleared —
A Yes.
Q —  but that is a heavy traveled street in Selma, it is one

of the thoroughfares, isn’t it?
A I am sure -- I am sure it is.
Q 1 +• A ~ U IS Ln that wholesale grocery area, isn’t that right?

A That’s right.
Q And wholesale groceries up and down that street, isn't it?

A That’s right; I think so.

Q And business is carried on up and. down that soreec, isn’t it?



160

It is.
Now, and this was on a Tuesday; is that right?
It was.
Now, you say that you traveled the same route on a Sunday; is 
that right?
Yes, and I think we were on the sidewalk, though I am not sure. 
Uh, huh; now, as a matter of fact, you didn’t travel the same 
route on Sunday, did you; you came down Alabama Avenue to Broad 
Street and then -- 
Maybe; I said I wasn’t sure.
You wasn’t sure?
Yes.
But you did come down to 3road. Street and walk the last block 
between Alabama and Water on Broad Street on Sunday, didn’t you? 
Well, it could have been.
Uh, huh.
I am not sure.
And that is a —  that is in downtown Selma, isn’t it?
It is.
And U.S. highway SO is a heavy traveled highway, isn’t it?
It has sidewalks, though.
U.S. 60 does?
Yes, on Broad Street, it has sidewalks.
I didn’t ask you --- I said U.S. highway is a heavy traveled
highway, isn’t it?



161

Yes, it is; yes, it is; definitely.
Uh, huh; now, you say that you had set out to march to Montgomer 
is that right?
That’s right.
Did you have any clothes with you?
Yes, I did.
What kind of bag?
I had a change of clothing and in a bag, a small bag.
Where did you have that?
I had it under raj'- am.
Under ĵ our am?
Yes.
Uh, huh: and what kind of shoes did ĵ ou have on?
I had on high heel shoes, because I always wear them.
High heel shoes?
Yes.
And you were going to walk from Selma to Montgomery with high 
heel shoes on?
I do not wear low heel shoes, because I can’t.
All right; now, did you know before you left the church down 
there that -- in fact you were requested before you left the 
church not to make that march on Sunday, wasn’t you?
I don’t remember.
Well, I -- you can remember back to Sunday, can’t jrou?
Whether 1 was requested not to make it.



162

Oh, this group was requested —
The group: yes.
—  not to make the march on Sunday, wasn’t it?
I don’t know.
Now, didn’t Mr. Wilson Baker, Sheriff Clark, Major Cloud, and 
all of them ask you all not to make that march on Sunday?
I was not in that meeting, and I don’t know.
Uh, huh: and now, on that date, on that Sunday, you —  you were 
met just about where —  at the end of that bridge, wasn’t you, 
on the Montgomery side ox the bridge, wasn’t you?
I think so.
Just a few feet over from the end of that bridge, wasn’t you?
I think so.
And they told you at that time to disperse and return back to 
Selma, didn’t they?
It was either Monday or Tuesday, and I don’t know which day it 
was.
l am talking about S u n d a y  now?
It was either Sunday or Monday, one of those days: I don’t know 
which day it was.
And that day, just stood there on that highway, didn’t they?
I don’t know whether that is the day we were stopped or not.
On Sunday, the day —
Well, I am not sure it was Sunday,we were met and stopped at 
the -- at the entrance of the brid.ge.



163

Yes, and that group continued to march on into those State 
Troopers, didnTt they?
We didn’t think they were vicious; we knew —
Well, they inarched on into the State Troopers, didn’t they?
We stopped when they told us to stop.
And the State Troopers then tried to break you up by each one 
of them grabbing a billy and running into you like that and make 
you go back across the bridge, didn’t they?
(Shook head to indicate negative reply)
Huh?
No.

But you refused to cross it, go back, didn’t you?
No, you are wrong.
On Sunday, didn’t you?
(Shook head to indicate negative reply)
All right. Now, let’s get back to this incident over at the 
Court House. Now, you state Sheriff Clark arrested you over
there at the Court House: is that right?
That’s right.
What were you charged with?
I wasn’t charged with anything at the beginning, 
were supposed -- after having been in jail for a 
or over to the jail, I was —  we were taken bacu 
House, and I think it was that time on, I didn’t 
were charged with until that night, and. that is

And when we 
couple of hours 
to the Court 
know what we
criminal



16 4

provocation.
Q Well, now, you —  you called this place the alley back there? 
A Yes.
Q Wow, actually, that is the Court House parking lot, isn’t it?

It is cement?
A I have never —
Q It is cement throughout, isn’t it?
A I have never seen any cars parked back there.
Q Never seen any cars there?
A No.
Q But that is a cement parking lot, isn’t it?
A I have never seen any cars parked there.

Q It is cement?
A It is cemented.

Q It is cement, isn’t it?
A It is cemented.

Q And there is a back door that opens into the Court House?

A Yes.
Q That is double -- double doors, isn’t it, aluminum doors or

door, isn’t it?
A There is a door --
Q Huh?
A There is a door that opens in the hall.

Q Double doors, aren’t they?
A I don’t know.



165

Same size as the doors that open in front on Lauderdale Street, 
isn’t it?
There is a door that enters into tne hall, whether it is douole 
or not, I don’t know.
All right. Well, now, you could stand right back there in that 
where you enter that door and look right straight through that 
Court House and look out on Laud.erdale Street, can’t you.''
That is where —  is why I had to walk around.
Nov/, the Lauderdale Street entrance is over there by the United 
States Court House, isn’t it?
That’s right.
And the Sheriff’s office is right there on the United States 
Court House —  I mean right there where you enter on the 
Lauderdale Street —  1 mean the Dallas —  Alabama Avenue 

entrance -- 
Alabama —
-- isn’t rfc —  huh?
Alabama entrance.
Alabama, isn’t it?
That’s right.
Well, the Sheriff’s office is just after you go through tne 
doors on the left' isn’t chat right.'
That’s right.
Isn’t that correct?
That’s right.



1 66

And the Board of Registrars is down the hall on the left, isn’t 
it?
It is about midways —
Uh, huh.
-- between the doors.
And the way they have been handling that thing is that the line 
would come up through that parking lot and in that back door an 
then back around back toward the Alabama Avenue, to the Board 
of Registrars; ain’t that right?
X think if I am not mistaken the3r pass the j.ront door, pass cue 
side door, then go through the back door, and then come on in. 
Into the Board of Registrars?
That’s right.
That is the way the line has been, wasn’t it?
That is the way it lias been.
Until Judge Thomas changed his order: isn’t that right?
I think so.
And then Judge Thomas changed his order where he ordered this 
appearance ’cool", to oe out front and lor it «o come througn one 
Lauderdale Street entrance; isn’t that right: isn’t that right? 
j don’t know what entrance —  they come through the Lauderaaie

entrance.
rLy v'j ght. Low, you do m o w  thac crai* 3oarq Oj. ae^-st. ai s m s  
open some ten extra days in the month of January, don’t You? 

Yes.

,d



167

And do you know that during the first ten days there was only 
thirteen Negroes that came down there and signed an applicant — 
that tried to register to vote” is taut correct;
Yes —
Yes.
-- I think so.
You know that, don’t you?
I think so.
And you know on the eleventh day is wnen they were xeu 
fifteen hundred down there, and they wanted them all registered

Yes,
day, don’t you?
ecause they didrd see the notice in the paper,
Via 1 ■?lid-L-L
see the noi:ice :Lil the paper; i.s that right?

a haIf inch i n s jL 38 •>
3o they wanted all fifteen Hundred registered in one day, drdn’ 

they?
3ome few read that notice and said they would like to gc down 
there, but they afraid of the atmosphere around tne Court douse 
with the possemen: that is why they didn’t. 
ir>d fifteen hundred, go down there on the eleventh day;
I think so; I hope so.
All right, now —  and since then, since Judge Thomas has said 
that since sometime in January this appearance book has bee? 
out there, hasn’t it, where you get a number —



16 6

A Yes.
Q -- and sign up; isn’t that right?
A Yes.
Q All right; now, at the tine you were down there with Sheriff

Clark, you had been walking backwards and forth in the hall of
the Court House and all up and down that line, hadn’t you?

A N o.
Q And you do that all the time, every time you go down there, don't 

you?
A I -- there was but one way to get from where I am standing: I

have got a place, they say, ’’Stand here,” and it is only one
way to get to the Registrars’ office, that is to go up here to
the Registrars’ office, enter the Registrars’ office, vouch ior 
the individual, walk back, and stand up here again, and the next 
one walk up there again, vouch for them, go back and stand xn 
that place.

Q Yes, that’s right, but you --
A That that really is walking up and down.
Q What you were doing is going out of the Court House and all over 

the Court House, in and out?
A That’s right —  no; no.
Q And you got a lot of folks down theret
A No, I vouched for them in that manner.
q  All right, the day that Sheriff Clark arrested you, he asked you 

where you were going, didn’t he?



1 6 9

A Yes, iie did.
Q And 3̂ ou called him a white son of a bitch, didn’t you?

WITNESS: Your honor, I don’t know how to curse.
A You picked the wrong person to say that —

rTHE COURT: Just answer the question: did you or
didn’t you?
A No, I did not.
Q And you spit at him, didn’t you: didn’t you?
A 'No, indeed, I did not.
Q All right.
A Can’t say anything to make it stronger.

MR. MeLEAN PITTS: That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Doar.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Mrs. Boynton, the day you went down there, was a large number

of people —  do you recall how many people the Board of Registrar 
processed?

A Was that when there were fifteen hundred down there that morning
Q Yes?
-A I think it was a hundred twenty.
Q Well, prior to Judge Thomas’s order, how many people were the 

Board processing?
A Six and maybe twelve, and one time I think about thirty. 

Thirty was the most in any one day?Q



170

A That is the largest.
Q Thank you.
A And they weren’t all Negroes.

THE COURT: Mr. Hall.
MR. HILL: No questions on redirect.
THE COURT: Mr. Smith.
MR. SMITH: Jio further questions.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: I would like to ask her one

farther question.
THE COURT: Mr. Pitts.

RECROSS EXAMINATION:
BY MR. McLEAN PITTS:
Q Did you hear —  on Tuesday did you hear Mr. Stanley Fountain, 

the United States Marshal, read the order of the court?
A I was too far back: I did not hear it.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right.
THE COURT: Anything further from this witness? You

can be excused from the witness stand.
MR. C-RAY: Your honor, may this witness be excused?
HR. SMITH: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
THE COURT: I have no objection; you can work it out

during this recess; court will be m  recess ten minutes.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Wait just a minute: don’t let her

go out.■
(At which time, 2:35 p.m a recess was had until



171

2:44 p.m., at which time the hearing continued) 
v rfHE COURT: All right, now, I understood we were

through with this witness.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: I wanted permission to ask her —

Judge, when they asked me whether she could go —  Judge, I am 
releasing her as far as I am concerned, I just wanted to ask her a 
couple ox more questions before she does leave.

THE COURT: Go right ahead.
Q Did you have with you on Sunday, this last Sunday, any type ox 

gas mask?
Any what?
Any type of gas mask?
No, I didn’t.
You didn’t have any homemade type gas mask with you.'

No, I didn’t.
On Sunday?
No, I didn’t.
And now, have you or tne Dallas County improvement Association 
is that the name of it —  Dallas County Tocers League?
That’s right: Dallas County Voters League.
At any time advocated the boycotting of the Selma Bus Lxnes.' 
After we had —  ves: in a way we have —  we did.
Have you done it; have you advocated —
I related atrocities of the story on tne bus 
Huh _ have you advocated the boycotting of the Selma Bus —

A



172

In a way, I imagine so: yes. Yes.
In a way you have?
Yes.
And have you contributed an̂ r sum. to putting on a bus lines that 
is running a route right in front of the Selma Bus Lines bus? 
Well, I contribute to the mass meeting.
Do you know who is doing that?
Well, I don’t know, I don’t know exactly, but I imagine that 
it’s somebody —
You don’t know?

THE COURT: He asked you if you knew.
ho.
It is not you?
No.
And it is three Volkswagens, isn’t it?
Yes, that’s right.
And those three Volkswagens were bought oy oiie Soudenc non— 
Violent Coordinating Committee, wasn’t they?
Well, I don’t know: I am g3.ad to hear -- ± don’t know exactly 
who, but someone —
Your organisation didn’t contribute any sum to io;
We contribute every night.
Do you know that there is an exclusive franchise granted to the 
Selma Bus Lines?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection



173

MR. GRAY: Objection.
THE COURT: You are getting far afield, Mr. Pitts.
MR. Me LEA IT PITTS: Sir?
THE COURT: You are getting far afield.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: The point I am getting at. your

honor, is that —  the point we are trying to get at, there is city 
ordinance after city ordinance that they have violated, and that is 
the only point I am driving at: if you think they are too far 
afield, I will withdraw —  I am trying to prove that there has been 
utter disregard for the city ordinances and laws in the Cicy of 
Selma since Christmas by this group.

THE COURT: And for what purpose are you trying to
prove that?

including --
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Well, including —  well,

THE COURT: What is your point in proving that?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes: the point in proving that

is including the orders of tins court and other injunctions.
THE COURT: I say what is your point in proving that
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Just continuous violation of couri

orders and statutes.
THE COURT: And what is your point in proving that?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Well, it proves that they violate

that —
THE COURT: As far as the issues in this case, what



17 4

I is your point?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: The point is, if they would

j violate these other orders willingly, and statutes and laws, they 
would violate the laws of the court —  the orders of this court, too

THE COURT: Objection sustained.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir. In other words,

it’s —  it is no wâ r to control it, in other words, law and order, 
unless we have obedience to law and order, and that —  that is one 
of the points, too, I want to prove it.

THE COURT: Any further questions from this witness?
Q I am handing you here now Plaintiffs’ Exhibit number 3, and I 

ask you, you say that was you laying down there on the ground, 
what is this over your head here?

A That is a plastic cap I had over my head with my glasses on,
which I have not found either one of them, and when I was hit am 
this was given, I remember this cap fell; well, it v/as cold, 
and it was standing up, it fell; I remember when it fell.

Q Did you pull that cap down over your face when you —
A I remember when it fell, when I was hit on this —  my arm.
Q Well, did you pull that down over your face when the tear gas -- 
A I don’t remember: no, I didnTt.
Q -- was used?

THE COURT: Anything further from this witness?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: That’s all.
THE COURT: Next witness.



175

MR. HALL: Mr. Hosea Williams, please.

HOSSA WILLIAMS, a Plaintiff, having been duly sworn, testified as 
follows:

.LAMINATION:
BY MR. HALL:
Q Will you tell us your name, address, and occupation, please, sir
A I am Kosea Williams, of 1165 West Fair Street, Atlanta, Georgia. 

I am the Director of the Political Education and Voter 
Registration of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

Q As Director of Political Education and Voter Registration, Mr. 
Williams, what are your duties?

A My duties —
Q And responsibilities?
A Ily duties and responsibilities are to assist, bid to stimulate 

and promote voter registration in the communities that request 
our services, and to operate adult citizenship schools, zo —  
in —  and to —  rather to cooperate, we have a program that we 
coordinate under the political education phase of the voter 
registration work with our adult citizenship school program thatf 
is to educate people to the: r political responsibilities.

q Are you a paid employee of the Southern Christian Leadership 
Conference?

a i am.
G Hew long have you worked in your present capacity, sir?



I

Q

0

A

Q

A
Q

176

Almost a year.
Have you bean doing this particular kind of work which 3rcu 
testified about here for the Southern Christian Leadership 
Conference --

A
_ i That’s right.
p —  in Selma and Da11a
A That’s right; correct

Have you also worked in other adjacent counties during the 
last year or two years?
I worked at adjacent —  other adjacent counties to Selina and 
Dallas during the year of 1965.
During 1965; when did you first begin working in Selma?
Our urogram began around the 2nd of January of this year.
Have you been there more or less ever since?
1 have spent more than half of my time since January 2 in the 
State of Alabama.
And you have worked in Selma and adjacent counties since that 
time?
Selma, adjacent counties, and counties as far as Montgomery.
All right, sir. Are vou familiar woth the Alabama project, Mr. 
Williams?
Yes, T am.
Did you have any part in evolving this program or this project?! 
Well, I expressed my opinion in the formulation oo the program. 
You attend the organizational meetings?



17 7

A
n

A

Some I did.
Gan you describe for us what the Alabama project is?
Well, it’s —  the Alabama —  Alabama project of the Southern 
Christian Leadership Conference evolved out of a meeting of the 
Statewide Coordinating Committee and the Southern Christian 
Leadership Conference and with the Dallas County, which is the, 
we considered a Black Belt, the center of the Black Belt oi 
Alabama, being the pivotal point, the program was to register,
get Negroes registered, and to teach them, to educate them 
politically, carry on a certain t̂ /pe of schooling and other 
activities in the Negro community that would develop a state of 
political awareness in citizens’ mind. Mow, once we got involve 
in Dallas County, we found out our primary objective was not 
to register Negroes, but to get the right to register without 
being intimidated, beaten, and jailed.

HR. P. H. PITTS: We object, and move to exclude tha1

3̂ our honor.
THE COURT: Overrule; asked him what his project was

designed to do.
0 Did you formulate programs from time to time to implement your

initial plans?
A We did: we had meetings of —  in Dallas County our program was 

more or less coordinated between the Southern Christian Leader­
ship Conference, the Dallas County Voters League, the S^udeno 
Non-violent Coordinating Committee, and the Dallas County Youth



176

Group. And we organized even to wards, and down to the block 
workers, and we would have a mass meetings, and as I said, some 
various forms of political education, this was the —  when we 
first began to orientate the community into the project, and 
thereby we set a certain time in which we would have a voter 
registration, you know, would kick off our drive in order to 
get citizens to go down and —  and register to vo^e.
Have you had any success ox getting people to go down and attemv 
to register and vote?
We have had success to get citizens to go down and register, go 
down for the purpose of registering, we have been most successf 
Have your mass meetings been well attended?
Mass meetings have been overflowing.
How often have you had mass meetings since —  during this year? 
On an average of five times per week.
Have you organized any demonstrations in furtherance of your 
program in Selma and Dallas County and otner places^
We have organized demonstrations protesting tne disenj-ranchiseme 
of Negroes, and specifically and particularly police brutality 

and jailings.
So you are saying that most of your demonstrations have been 
organized and carried on in an efxorc oo get tne r̂ .gnt to vote 
and to protest police brutality ~- 
ThatTs right.
—  is that what you are saying?

i . l

n



179

That’s right, in keeping with philosopher of the Southern Christia 
Leadership Conference, all of our demonstrations have been 
organized in a non-violent, peaceful attitude, and actually beer 
carried out in this manner.
Have many people been involved in these demonstrations
Well, I guess* I don’t know what you mean by, "Many"; it ranged
from -- I guess we would say many, my definition of many.
Would you give us your judgment of whether or no many people have 
been involved?
Well, our demonstrations have ranged anywhere from a hundred 
persons at this point up to —  well, in Dallas County up to 
actually demonstrations -- and I want to make this clear for 
the court, I don’t consider taking persons down to the Court 
House to register as a demonstration; one da;/ we carried down — 
oh, it was about -- I think about two thousand adults involved, 
and we did not break any laws, we abided, in groups of five —  
so I don’t consider this a demonstration. A demonstration is 
when we go down the streets in order to have a prayer vigil or 
something: so the demonstrations probably ranged up to a thousanc 
fifteen hundred.
So vou are distinguishing between a demonstration wnere you nave 
a prayer vigil or something else and taking of a large number 
of persons to the Court House for the purpose of signing a book- 
That’s right.
-- or registering and voting?



Yes, this is not a protest demonstration.
Let’s distinguish as to them further, and will you tell us about 
your success in getting people to go to the Court House in 
Dallas County and in other counties to register and vote, have 
you had any success, but let’s confine our attention to Dallas 
at this time?
To get citizens to go down, as long as we were in town, and this 
is why we were there, because the\r did request our services, 
the police brutality in cases the3r felt were lessened, and to 
get citizens to go down we were successful, we were successful 
to get than to go down to sign the book or to trjr to register, 
which is not a protest demonstration; we were successful to 
get individuals to go down to protest disenfranchisement and 
police brutality and failings and et cetera.
Can you give us the dates, specific dates, on which 3/ou were 
able to carrjr large numbers of persons or get them to go to the 
Court House for the purpose of either registering or signing the 
book as prospective registrants?
I can give the approximate dates; I can’t —
Will 3/ou do that, beginning in January?
I can’t give 3/ou the exact date: as I remember, one date that 
we had a large numbers down in order to get numbers, the same 
da3?- Mrs. Bo3rnton wa3 brutalized 03̂ Sheriff Clark.

MR. P. H. PITTS: Wait a minute, now: we object to —
MR. McLEAI'I PITTS: Wait a minute; we move to exclude



161

j that statement, "Brutalized by Sheriff Clark."
THE COURT: It wasn’t responsive; direct the

witness’s attention to jrour question, 
j Q Will you confine your answer --
I A I believe that was around, oh, I can’t say —  it was around

February 7, but I can’t give you specific dates, I don’t have 
then available, I wouldn’t trust ny memory.

Q May I ask you this, sir; If Mrs. Boynton says that date was 
January 19, would you agree with that date?

A January 19? 
j Q Yes?
A It was about Januarĵ , I would -- I would agree with it.
Q On that occasion were you present when the —
A I was with her.
Q when the persons came to the Court House for the —
A Yes, myself and Mr. John Lewis was leading the line down —  led 

the line, rather, down to the Court House.
Q Will you tell the court who were in that line; were they 

prospective registrants or persons —
A Yes.
Q —  going down for the purpose of registering?
A Mr. John Lewis and myself and Reverend Reese, the head of the

Dallas County Voters League, Reverend Anderson, Reverend Lewis, 
we had most of' the distinguished Negro ministers in that line, 
and when we came across —  well, we crossed the street to the



162

Q

Q
A

Court House, Sheriff Clark stopped us, and he said, "This is 
as far as you go, and you go down the street and go in that 
door down the street.11 I didn’t —  X didn’t, know too much abou 
the Court House, and Reverend Lewis said, "Well, I see white 
people are entering and going in and out of this door, Sheriff 
and I don’t see" —
Will you wait just one moment? I asked you if you had persons 
in that line who were going to the Court House _or the purpose 
of registering?

A This is true.

Q I didn’t —  I
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have
A This is true.

Q Will you give
A Well, in that ine we —  we had approximately seven hundred 

persons in the line, and you only have three hundred registere 
voters in Dallas County, to my recollection, only about twenty 
members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and 
the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee present; so I 
would say out of the several hundred at least five hundred werjs 
there for the purpose —  over the age of twenty-one were there 
for the purpose of getting registered.
How close did you get to the Court House on this occasion?
We got at the corner of the Court House, there is no door, ther



163

is a door about a half —  down this way and a block along —  
about a --- end of the block in this direction. To our —  in
other words, when we walked into the sidewalk facing us, it was 
a door about a block away, but there was another door at our 
left about thirty feet away, and this is the door that the 
ministers —  that the citizens of Dallas County were —  desired 
to go into.

Q Were you permitted to go in this door?
A We were not permitted to go into, but we were poked with billy

sticks and cattle prods.
HR. P. H. PITTS: He didn't asked what happened to

him, your honor: he asked him whether he was permitted to go in 
there, he just keeps on —

THE COURT: I sustain objection; I sustain objection
You just respond to the questions —
Q Ansx7er the question, please?

THE COURT: —  your lawyer —
A What was the question?
Q Were you permitted to go in that door?
A No, we were not permitted.
Q I believe you said previously that at this point you were 

confronted by Sheriff Clark —
A This is correct.
Q —  is that correct?
A Sheriff Clark and possemen and deputies.

I



164

Q Was Sheriff Clark, himself, there?
A Sheriff Clark was there, himself.
Q You know the Sheriff, don’t you, when you see him?
A I know him well, very well.
Q Did he speak to you?
A Yes, he spoke to ---
Q What did he say to you?
A He said. “This is as far as you going, if you going inside of 

Court House, you go down the street"; you want me to elaborate 
on what happened? The Judge told me —

Q I want you to say what he told you?
A All right; he said, “Go down the street,-1 and this point,

Reverend Anderson said, "Judge, we are citizens of this county, 
and we are desirous to go into this aoor, white Cj-t-LuGns are 
vo"' nc in and out of this cioor, you do no^ challenge one-i, why 
do you challenge us as taxpayers?1* ana ± said, •• bnera.fi, we 
are not going," he told me to snut up, tna^ I was an outsidex, 
that I had nothing to do with it, and then i-Ir. Lewis as „ed him, 
said, "Sheriff, we are only here, not to make trouble, for one 
purpose of helping these people get registered," so he told Mr. 
Lewis, "You are the lowest form of scum upon the face of une 
earth." And then a local minister, Reverend Bradford, spoke 
up and said, "Well, I am a citizen of this county, and I am 
desirous to go through this door." Sheriff Ciaru says, 
"Preacher, who are you, how long you been here?" So he said,



165

Q
A

Q
A
Q
A

Q
A

"Long enough." This irritated the Sheriff terribly, because he 
began to tremble. ■
No, no, no.
Okay, what he said. And then Reverend —  he said, "Weil, you 
can’t go through this door, and that is" —  he said it, "And 
that is the law." Reverend Anderson, a local minister, at this 
point said, "Well, Sheriff, we are citizens of this county, and 
we are here this morning to test that law." And then —  after 
the conversation he soon became irritated, and that is all.
That the end of the conversation?
That is all that was said: that is all that was said.
What was done at this point?
Oh, what was done? They began to poke us with the billy sticks 
and drive us up against the wall and rushed us all upstairs and 
hauled us over to jail some place.
You were carried upstairs; were you carried to a court room?
We were carried to —  we were carried upstairs, rushed upstairs 
I were grabbed in the back by one of the deputies which —  and 
were drug almost all the way upstairs, and I —  I didn’t ask hi 
outside to turn me loose, because I thought he wanted to 
brutalize me some more.

n

MR. P. H. PITTS: Now, your honor, that is —
Q Were you carried to the court room?

THE COURT: Just a minute; just a minute. When an
objection is made, now, you stop.



166

MR. KILL: All right, sir.
THE COURT: That is the only way I can control this

trial. How, Mr. Williams, you listen to your lawyer’s questions, 
and you just answer what he ashed you.

WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: When he wants to bring it out, he will

ask you a question designed to bring it out. Don’t volunteer any 
more information.

WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: How, get along.

Q Were you carried to a court room?
A Correct; was carried to a court room.
Q Do you know what court room?
A Court room on the third floor.
Q Do }rou know whose court room?
A I don’t.
Q Did you see a Judge in the court room?
A We never did see a Judge.
Q What occurred in the court room?
A We were told to sit down and -- that was al±.
Q You never saw a Judge: was there any trial?
A There was no trial* we never saw a Judge.
Q What happened then?
A We were carried out to the County Farm, and at Camp Selma, this 

was in the morning hour, and picked up at Camp Selma about 
eight that night and carried to Camp Camden, I believe, down



187

in Wilcox County, Wilcox or Iiarengo County.
Q Were you ever told what you were charged with?
A We were never told what we were charged with; we were not —  

never told.
Q When did you find out what you were charged with?
A Three -- four days —  three or four days later, three or four

days later, I disrenember when we were brought back to —  it 
was three days later, I believe. We were brought back to Dalla 
County.

Q And you were subsequently released on bail?
A Yes.
Q Iir. Williams, were you a part of the march, or did you have

anything to do with the march, from Selma, or attempted march, 
from Selma to Montgomery on March 7, 1965?

A Mr. John Lewis and I were the leaders of the march.
Q Did you organize this march?
A I participating in organizing it.
Q You participated in organising the march. But you and Mr.

Lewis, when you said the leaders, you mean you marched at the 
head of the column?

A Head of the column.
Q Will 3rou tell the court what happened on this occasion?
A Well, I would like to get some instructions as to what point; 

across the bridge ---
Q Start at Brown Chapel, and tell us what happened?



1S8

A

Q

Q

A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A

Oh.
Tell us very succinctly.
At Brown Chapel we lined up, and this was on Sunday, and Mr. 
Lewis and I lined up at the head of the line, and we left 
Brown’s Chapel on Sylvan Street and marched to West —  marched 
to Broad, and that is the beginning —  the bridge, I think
that is the city limit, on Broad, that is highway e--  highway
80 east, going into Montgomery, Alabama, and we marched in 
groups of five, four, five, or six, so many feet apart, due to 
some city ordinance, and after we reached the bridge, we lined 
up in twos, two abreast, and two abreast, and we marched on the 
sidewalk, the left hand sidewalk of highway SO crossing the 
bridge.
You said you had sidewalk: there is a sidewalk going across the 
bridge?
Correct.
And the line was on the sidewalk?
On the sidewalk.
You didn’t get out into the street?
We didn’t get out in the streets at no time.
Go right ahead?

TflQ crossed the bridge, some two or onree olocus we we_.l 
about the time we walked off of the oridge, this is on highway 
SO east, we saw State Troopers gathering across the road and 
saw some deputies of Dallas County, and this was the second



189

group of deputies —  well, this was the first group of deputies 
I remember, because at the beginning of the group —  bridge was 
a large group of possemen. And we continued to walk, and when 
we -- I guess were about fifty feet of the State Troopers,
there was a line, a-- completely across the road, there was an
automobile with public address system mounted on it, and I think 
the gentleman said that he was Major Cloud and, "This is as 
far as you marchers go.:: He said that, "This march is not
safe, and the Governor want it stopped, and I an ordering you
to disband, disperse, and return to your church or home.11 I 
said, ;‘I —  w e  would like to have a word with you, sir.ir He 
said, “'There will be no talking.n And he said, "Disperse 
immediately and —  and go home or —  go to your church or go 
home immediately, you have two minutes,” and I looked at my 
watch, and a few seconds later -- he said we had two minutes, 
and a few seconds later, I guess about ten or fifteen seconds 
later, he said, "I am telling you the last time to disperse tĥ t 
march and go home.” I —  I had asked him the second time to 
have a word with him, and after one minute and five seconds, he 
—  he gave the State Troopers an order to —  to move in and 
disperse the crowd. This 'was the order to move in and disperŝ  
the crowd. The State Troopers then took their night sticks, 
holding them by the end, and advanced briskly, briskly toward 
the group. And where Mr. Lewis and I were standing at the heaifL 
of the line and about two feet away, the whole group of State



Troopers leaped into the line knocking us back, driving us back
and sane began stabbing with their billy clubs, once they got 
us moving some began stabbing with their billy clubs, and some 
began swinging right and left, and some were swinging over in 
the pile up viciously, and we went down, and when we went down, 
after awhile, which they were jabbing us and whipping us with 
these billy sticks, the Major Cloud gave an order to regroup,
I think is the word he used, and they regrouped. And at this 
time saie Troopers that were on the side that did not participa 
before pulled into the group, and they all began to get these 
tear gas bombs out, and they marched back alongside the line, 
this time they did not attack the head of the line, and it was, 
you know, just seemed like an organised situation, because the 
first tear bomb —  gas bomb —  tear gas bombs were thrown on 
us were thrown very lightly, and they tried to throw them, 
seemingly, between the feet or up under the marchers. And 
then shortly after the first gas bombs along the line, at the 
head of the line, went off, they threw a second bombs, and 
at this —  about —  and at this tine I noticed the possemen, 
the mounted possemen. This is the first time I had seen them 
riding —

M R . p. H . PITTS: Your honor, is it possible —  we
object to this continuous expose on what happened; I think that his 
lawyer can ask him questions. He hadnTt asked him anything what 
the nos semen did; he asked him what the oace iroopers did, and cij—



we can

n

THE COURT: I understood he asked him what happened.
You go ahead and interrogate him --i

MR. HALL: We asked him what happened.
THE COURT: —  in question and answer form, and not

na rra t i ve form.
MR. HALL: All right.

Tell me, Mr. Williams, how close were you to the line oi 
Troopers when your column stopped?
About approximately fifty, sixty feet.
I believe you said these Troopers were stretched across the

road?
Correct.
Standing there in single file?
Correct; correct —  no; no, not in single file: they were not 
seemingly in any file, if in file they were two or three deep. 
They had some depth?
Yes.
Do you have any judgment as to how many State Troopers were 

there ?
Approximately eighty.
Now, at this point, did you see Sheriff Jim James dark?

A Not at this point.
Q Did you see any of his deputies?

A Yes.

A
Q
A

Q
A
Q

A
0.



192

Were some Sheriff’s deputies present?
Yes.
Were they standing there with the Troopers?
Over at the right, over at our right.
They were standing —
Troopers further —
They were standing to the right of your line?
That’s right.
This was across the bridge?
That’s right; correct.
About how many Sheriff’s deputies did you see?
I would estimate twenty, fifteen, I —  I would —  1 would come 
close to saying between ten and twenty.
Did you see any of the Sheriff’s Posse at that oime?
Not at this point.
Now, I am going to show you something, I want you to look at 
it for me; 1 show you this document here marked Plaintiffs’ 
Exhibit 5, and ask you if you can identify it and tell us what 

it is?
This is —
If you can?
This is -- this was the second attack by the State Troopers.

THE COURT: He just asked you what it was.
Tell us what this object is you are looking at?
Oh, this is the State Troopers attacking the marchers that was



193

marching Sunday.
Q Is this a photograph, Mr. Williams?
A That's right.
Q And that is a photograph of what?
A When —  this was just after the -- this was after the second

tear gas was thrown, when the Troopers first lunged back in and 
started beating with their billy clubs.
Do you see yourself in this picture? 
Yes, this is myself, here.

r\y Is this a picture of a —  a group of per.sons?

A The crowd was driven back.
Q Is this a picture of a group of persons?
A Yes; yes.
Q Does it include State Troopers and other officers?

This would include State Troopers.

Q And does it include a picture of yoursel..? o

Yes.
'hi Do you recognize that picture?
A Yes.
Q Is this a true likeness of what happened at the tine .s pictur

was made?
A This is true; 3res.

MR. HALL: May It please your honor —
MR. SMITH: I have seen it.
HR. MALL: —  we are going to offer it into evidence,

Plaintiffs1 Exhibit.



MR. SMITH: I have no objection.
TME COURT: It will be admitted in evidence.

How, at the time —  how long were you standing there after major 
Cloud spohe to you before you were attacked by the Troopers?
A total of about two minutes.
Acre you, vcurself, struck down?

c the ground: was John Lewis
A Tes.
Q You were pushed or struck down '

standing there by you?
~ X Yes.
r\ Reverend John Lewis?
it Yes.
Q has he struck, down?
A That’s right.
Q Did vou see him struck down?
il Correct.
Q Were there women and chiIdren 1

A Correct.
r, Did you see them struck down?
A Correct.
Q Did you see the Sheriff’s Fosse

across the bridge?
A Yes, correct: I did. I saw the

horseback.
The Posse was mounted on horseback?



19

:es.
And you sav; then across the bridge?

Did you see them participating --
Tes, i sav/ tneni.

re action there't, 9
V P  o ,- ° s ± did
What were they doing? 
They were whipping pec 
running —  and stain pec 
horses.

us what you mean; were they riding the
They were r.Lding their horses into the
DAd 3rcu see the horses step on anyone ?

and billy sticks and
tes, the marchers, with

i—ir■H you describe for
horses into the crowd?

in the
Ies, I sav; one man downed that the horse stepped just across 
his shoulder, and well, the nan later said he was kicked 
head by the horse, and I saw another nan when he tried to drive 
the horse up on the sidewalk and stepped on this nan’s foot.
Did you see Sheriff Clark on the south or east side of the 
bridge?
I didn’t see Sheriff Clark on the east side of the bridge.
How long did you remain across the bridge after you were first 
attacked before recrossing the bridge and coming to town? 
Approximately fifteen —  approximateIvr fifteen —  ten or fifteejn



19 6

minutes.
And then the entire group came back into Selma; is that right? 
Yes.
Did you cone with them?
Yes.
Describe .tor us what happened as you came into Selma; did you 
when you came across the bridge into Water Street, or Broad, 
this is the first street -- 
Yes.
—  as you come off the bridge coming —
We came over the bridge; then I observed —  this is where I 
observed Sheriff Clark, of Dallas County, possemen and 
deputies, and thejr were seemingly allowing a certain number of 
maybe Negroes, and were hollering, “Go get those God damned 
niggers, 51 and they were coming into us, and, "Kill the niggers 
and them God damned white niggers," and I —  I can describe 
other things that were said if the court would like me to.
Did you hear Sheriff Janes Clark, himself, say that?
I heard Sheriff Jim Clark, himself.
Did you march along with the group who were attempting to cros 
that bridge returning?
I did, 1 tried to usher —
What distance did you go ahead with them?
Well, I tried to stay at the rear of the line, to the best of 
my ability, there were some people behind me, but I, too, was



197

frightened to death for ray life, but I tried to stay as near 
back as possible to the rear, some people would be running up, 
and we would get them in front of us. but others were behind.

Q Can you tell us how far it is in terms of city blocks from the 
foot of the Edward Pettus Bridge on Broad Street to Brown’s 
Chapel on Sylvan Street?

A Approximately eight blocks.
Q Approximately eight blocks?
A I would say approximately eight blocks.
Q And did you go along with the people to —  the marchers?
A Seven of them.
Q You went seven of those blocks?
A Seven of the blocks.
Q Were the Sheriff’s men present all along the way?
A They were present and very active in beating —
Q Would you describe their activities along the way as you 

observed it: you did observe it. did you not?
A Yes; they would —  in some case they would grab —  they were

trying to get the whites, though, really more than they were th 
Negroes; they would say, “There is another white nigger loving 
son of a —  get him”; they would jump in there and try to pull 
them out to beat them, and sometimes —  they were on the 
horses would never pull anyone, they would just come along in 
the crowd with their bullwhips and whack them with their billy 
sticks, and whack them on the neck or the head with —  or



196

shoulders: the ones on foot, they were just running into the 
crowd and sometimes —  the people were already trotting slowly, 
really I guess you could say running, say, "Go nigger” —  
said, '‘Nigger, go faster, you ain’t going fast enough," and 
start people on the rear pushing further —  would try to push 
further to the front, and some would fall, and this was 
continuously for the seven blocks that I observed it.

Q And women and children were still in that crowd?
A Women, children, men, white people, Negroes.
Q Why —  what happened to you after you had gone seven blocks?
A A lady ran to me and threw a coat and said she had heard Jim

Clark, "Get the nigger was leading the line in the black suit," 
and she was afraid for my life, as I was.

THE COURT: Just answer the question; control your
witness —
Q What happened to you?

THE COURT: —  control your witness.
Q What happened to you?
a  What happened -- well, the lady rushed me into a house.
0 You —  you went into her house?
A Into her house.
Q Do you know the approximate location of this house?
A Yes, it is straight —  well, it’s —  it’s one block this side

of Sylvan Street.
Q Is a block away from Sylvan Street?



199

A It is a block —  it is the street that runs across one block 
over from the church —  the street that Brown's Chapel is on, 
which is Sylvan Street.

Q And 3/ou did go into the house?
A Correct.
Q When you went into the house, did you then look out of the 

window at the activity?
A Correct.
Q Could you see the marchers and the officers outside?
A The same thing as I described; I could see it, other than one

thing when Mr. —
Q Tell us what you saw, not —  what you saw, if you could see it?
A I saw possenen chasing little children, twelve and thirteen 

year old. with billy sticks, swinging at them, hitting them, 
as close as they could get to them, and —  and mounted possemen 
chasing little children, women, and men* I saw Sheriff Clark 
going into this woman's porch and hit this woman, I am —  she 
just had walked out the door, and he came around the corner, 
and he —  he went on to this woman's porch and whacked this 
woman, and this man cane out, and he backed away, and a lot of 
other possemen ran up, it was just this —  it happened —  this 
was a continuous thing as long as any Negro was in —  any 
Iiegro or any white person; I can say there probably wasn't —  
none was in the street at any point; they ran people all off 
their porches into their homes and beat up against doors, witn



possemen chasing everyone, as i say.
Do you mean that they were beating people who were not a part 

of the marchers?
Truer true.
Hr. Williams, approximately how many white people —  about 
approximately how many people were in that line 01 march with 

you?
I say ~~ I would say --- I say about seven hundred.
About seven hundred* do you have any idea how many oi those 
persons were white people?
About thirty.
About thirty: were these mostly workers for either 3.C.L.C. or 

3.K.C.C.?
I would say ten or twelve of them were —  either were workers 
of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference or the Student 
Non-violent Coordinating Committee; the others were interested 

citizens in Selma.
In Selma?
Some were Selma, and other citizens that came inoo oelnci.
Well, you are then saying at least ten of your thirty write 
persons were persons who were working with one of the two civi.. 
rights organizations —
Yes.
—  in Selma?
Correct



201

And had they been working in Selma for some time?
I am sure some had* I am sure some had for several weeks, that 
is the 1st, 2nd of January.
You did not have a large number of private citizens in this 
particular line of march?
\ihite citizens?
I mean white private citizens?
Ho more than twenty or twenty-five: no more than twenty or

all right, sir. Nov/ —
MR. HALL. Excuse me, please, your honor.

Directing your attention, Mr. Williams, back to the east side 
of the Edward Pettus Bridge, before we come across back into 
the City of Selma; when —  after you were first stopped and the 
tear gas applied, did the people just stand there or immediatel 
turn around and come across the bridge, or were there some otlie 
reactions?
When the last large amount of gas bombs were thrown, the people 
tried to retreat across the bridge. Then the possemen cane 
across beating them, keeping them —
That is —  that is —  I didnTt mean to interrupt you: I —  I 
understood you to say the last —  I said when they began, when 
they began to —  let me put my question again: after the line 
was stopped and the Troopers began beating, and then they 
applied the tear gas, did the line just stand there, or did the



202

Q
A

Q
A

Q
A
Q

A

Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q

people turn around and retreat, or was there some other reaction 
They tried to retreat.
Well, which way did they try to retreat* xvhere did the3r go?
Back across —  they tried to retreat back across the bridge, 
but some were driven out into a field.
You say some were driven into a field?
Many driven out ---
Are there some woods in that area, too?
Yes.
Were any driven into the woods?
Driven over near the woods, which is maybe a block from the 
shoulder of the road; there are some trees in there.
And some of them were driven into the trees?
Yes.
How did the officers react to these persons who ran into the 
trees; did they chase them or let them go?
iriev threw tear gas bombs down there, and some possemen —
mounted possemen chased them.
Mounted on horses ciiased tnem into the woods? 
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Did you attend this, yourself?
I observed this, myself.
Did you see them round up anyone out of the woods? 
I saw them running and beating people.
You mean they were riding along on the horse —



203

A

n

A
Q

A

Q

A
Q

A

w
A

Yes, sir.
-- and whipping them from the horse?
Yes.
I see. Now, as we come back across the bridge, and we come 
down the foot of the bridge, the hill, we get to Water Street 
right at Broad, and we come into Selma, I believe you say you 
first saw Sheriff Clark; did the Troopers follow 3̂ ou to this 
point?
Troopers did not follow us: Troopers followed us to the bridge. 
“Were you —  were you able —  were you still in charge of these 
marchers, in charge of this line at this point?
I myself and Mr. John Lewis.
Was Mr. Lewis with you at this point?
Mr. Lewis —  Mr. Lewis was with me up to a certain point; he 
was hit in —  severely in the head with a billy stick.
Did you observe whether or no any persons who had not been a 
part of this marching group were molested as you came into 
•Selma?
Yes, the first —  yes, very much so.
Can you tell us about any instance?
Well, it was over the bridge, it was a bus, yellow bus, with 
about thirty or forty persons, and this —  over at tne rignt, 
this is the first group that the possemen attacked, and one 
man in particular, possemen began to beat with their whips and 
billy sticks, one man in particular had a cork leg.



Were they all Negroes, these five Negroes?
These people were Negroes; the possemen started beating this 
man over the nead. and he scarce! screaming, he said, I am 
not a marcher, I am not with you-; they screamed, "You are a 
God damned nigger, though." He would try to run «.nd fall, ne 
had a cork leg, and every time he would get up, they would start 
beating him, and they drove him into the line ox marchers, into

the gas.
Was this in the presence of James —  Snerni James Clarke 
I didn’t see Sheriff Clark across the oridge.
You didn’t see Sheriff Clark. Do you know whether or no Mr. 
Lewis was injured on this occasion?
Mr. Lewis was injured right by my side; yes.
Do you know whether or not he was hospitalised as a result

Yes.
—  of such injuries?
Yes.

MR. HALL: 1 believe t ha t ’ s al 1 •

THE COURT: Mr. Doar •
MR. DOAR: 1 have no que stions, your honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Smith.
CROSS EXAMINATION:

HR. SMITH:
You say that you and John Lewis were the leaders of the Sunday |, 

March 7, march?



205

Reverend Lewis and I was.
You and he planned it, organised it. and were the leaders of it1

We helped plan it.
Well, did you know that on March 6, the day preceding the inarch 
that the Governor of the State of Alabama said that, “ouch a 
march cannot and will not be tolerated'1 i 
I was told this by someone, hearsay.
You were informed of that statement by the Governor of the Stat 

of Alabama?
I was told.
When were you told about it?
I canTt remember exactly, but I know just before the marcn 
someone did tell me this.
Did you have a meeting on the evening of Marcn 6?
Saturday evening?
Yes?
Yes.
What did you decide to do if you and the other demonstrators 
were confronted by Alabama State Troopers and ordered to 

disperse?
To discuss the matter with them.
To discuss tne matter with them.?
Yes, try to explain our position.
And to prevail upon them to let you continue to march from 

Selma to Montgomery?



No, just explain our position.
Just explain your position?
That’s right.
And what was your plan after 3̂ ou had explained your position?
We would have to make a decision then; it was not to walk throu
State Troopers.
Was it to disperse? 
It was to go —
Go home?
To go back, if they continued if we couldn’t get through. 
Was to what?
It was to go back if we could not continue.
If you could not get through?
Yes.
All right; now, on Sunday, March 7, Major Cloud, of the Alabama 
State Troopers, told you and the other leader of this 
demonstration or march that it wouldn’t be permitted, didn’t he
.es.
lie asked you to disperse, didn’t he?
Yes.
It 'was seven hundred people, approximately, in the crowd that
you led, wasn’t it?
Yes.
You disobeyed his order, didn’t you?



207

Qi
A
Q
A
Q
A

Q
A
Q

Q
A
Q

Q

Well, you didn’t disperse, did you?
No.
Was he an officer in uniform?
Yes.
Did he identif3̂ himself to you as a State Trooper?
Yes.
Major with the Alabama Highway Patrol —
Yes.
-- or State Troopers?
Yes.
And he asked you to disperse?
Yes.
And the refusal on your part and the part 01 others to do thac 
prompted the action on the part of Major Cloud?

MR. GREENBERG: Objection: he didn’t testify they
fused, he testified he wanted to talk to him.

THE COURT: As to what may have prompted Major Cloud

not a proper question.
MR. SMITH: All right, I withdraw the question.

But it was after the order to disperse was given and the refusal 
on vour part and the other der.ionstrators ohat wiajor oloud zormed 
a wedge or ordered a wedge with the State Troopers an holding 
the billv clubs as you have demonstrated in ohis manner ana 
walked or attempted to walk througn the crowd of the demonstra--

tors, wasn’ 0 it ?



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209

You didn’t see a wedge?
No, it might have been, I —  I just didnTt see the wedge; they 
carae —

You estimated approximately eighty State Troopers; is that 
correct?
Well, altogether, it was some along the side, I was talking 
about all the State Troopers I saw in the area, that includes —  
Do you know Mr. Lingo, the defendant seated here?
I learned of him, I have been knowing of him by reputation, but
I learned of him.
Did you see him that Sunday? 
I did not.
Did you hear him give any order in regard to 
action they took?
I did not; I did not.
You did not?
No.
Was he -- you didn’t see him there that —  
Not -- the man -- not Mr. Lingo; i saw Mr. G 
identified himself, seemed like he said, "I

the State Troopers

loud, the man that 
arn Colonel Cloud";

J

I remember the name, Cloud --
All right.
—  "Alabama State Troopers."
You are one of the original pla.intxifs -- 
Correct.



210

Q -- that filed the petition in this cause —
A Correct.
Q --is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Were you served with a copy ox this court’s order entered on 

I larch 9 ~~
A Correct.
Q —  enjoining you from, attempting to march from Selma to 

Ziontgomery?
A Cor’rect.
Q When were you served with that order?
A It was in the —  I believe it was in the afternoon; I don’t 

remember the time exactly, but I believe —  I believe it was
sometime after lunch or right around that time.

n Where were you when it was served?
A Beg your pardon?
Q Where were you when it was served?
A I believe I was at Brownsvi.lie Baptist Church or at Dr. —  x

think I was at Brownsville Baptist Church —  not Brownsvilie,
Brown Chapel.

h Did you lead the attempted march on Tuesday of t- -X s week?
A ho.

O’ here you there?
A Ho, I was at the church.
r\'v' Did you participate in the a 11 en pt e d raa r c h ?



no.
You didn’t leave the church?
No.
Y ou stayed in the church?
No: no, I was on the outside of tiice church
You didn’t go in the church?
Well. ̂ cl C C —-.iOs; in and out of the church.

?ron Selma toWas any discussion in the church about marching 
Montgomery on Tuesday?
That is what the meeting was about.
That is what it was about?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Did the]' decide to march?
’Well, I guess you would say the decision was made a couple o. 
weeks age] they just was talking about logistics.
Did they talk about the proclamation or the statement issued 
by the President of the United States requesting this group not 
to march?
I didn’t know about it; all —  everyone was depending upon the 
guidance of the persons who were going to lead the march.
Did they talk about this court’s order —

’ i v* o v1 hi O
ning the prop o s ed na r c h from Selma to Hontgomer;

they tal.ked about waiting until tile leaders -»OI

■rived to -- to take charge of what was going to



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A

A

213

procedures in Dallas Counts/: was that the purpose of it?
It was to protest the inhumane treatment of Negroes in Dallas 
County and the disenfranchisement.
By voter registration process?
And Jim Clark a.nd his Posse and deputies.
Was the purpose of your program to eliminate voter discriminati 
in the application or the registration to become qualified 
voters in Dallas County?
Yes, and surrounding countiesr you are correct there.
Why didn’t 3rou go to Federal Court with your petition?
I an not —  I don’t deal in legal ramifications: I have a job, 
my duties are assigned.
You deal in mass psychology, don’t you?
My duties are assigned; I deal in voter registration and 
political education: Dr. King and the Legal Defense Fund handle 
all the legal matters.
Isn’t it also a purpose of the demonstration to appeal to Negrc 
who have been given the right by Federal Courts oo register to 
encourage them to erercise that right which the Federal Courts 
lias given them or guaranteed then?
You are partly right.
Well, in what part am I wrong?
Because demonstration is non-violent, direct action, demonstra­
tions is to correct a wrong tnat a socieuy nas d.onxed a Negro 
in education and not a society tell him, “You can’t register an



214

Q

A

Q

A

r

vote because you don’t nave no education," but this same societ[y 
has denied this Negro an education; and also this thing of 
police brutality and intimidation, many Negroes who are qualifije 
and know they can go down and register are afraid to go down 
in Dallas County because of Sheriff Jim Clark, his Posse and 
deputies.
Well, why weren’t these complaints in regard to Sheriff Clark 
brought to the attention of the Federal Court?
They were.
Federal Court ignore them?
I don’t know just how far -- it is in court now.
And 3̂our group felt, and you as Director m  the capacit3r tnat 
you have mentioned, felt that it was necessaig7’ to correct this 
situation in Dallas County to demonstrate m  the streets, to 
call mass meetings; is that what you sair?
We felt that this, coupled with the court, aid from the courts, 
would correct the matter.
Didn’t suit you that Negro citizens were complacent, even 
though the Federal Courts had guaranteed the right, and the 
'ourpose of it was to provoke violence and call their aucenoj-on 

No.
— — to the sicua gi_on 
No.
-- to encourage them to vote?
No, not at all.



Q
A,

215

That is not at all trus?
No, we are non-violent, not violent; we believe in non-violence 
Did you ever think from the lav; enforcement standpoint, the 
problem that State Troopers or other law enforcement officers 
may have in controlling white people in a community?

MR. GREEKSERG:
•rib]_y rapet it i
m T xrpi nib COURT: T -

i o n s ! Lderation?
MR. SMITH: Ye
WITI'JESS: I di
THE COURT: DiTHE COURT: Did you give any consideration to any

difficulties the law enforcement officers may have in controlling
whxte cx'01 sens :V

A
n

We did give —  we give consideration; yes.
But you didn’t think that was serious enough to stop these 
mass marches, even though they may result in violence by white 
people inflicted upon Negroes; is that what you say?
Well, our consideration, xn our conclusion oi our consideratxoi 
we felt that the law enforcement officers of Alabama was adeqû t 
to prevent violence.
Well, isn’t it a fact that this group which you led initially 
defied the order of the Governor of this State and a major of 
the State Troopers in asking you to disperse and not oo march 
from Selma to Montgomery as you had announced?



, : ib

Mo.
Q And isn’t it also a fact that this same group, even though you 

didn’t participate in it, on Tuesday defied the proclamation 
of the President of the United Stages m  asxing then not to

march --
MR. GRESNBE'RG: Objection.

Q _ or attempting to march from Selma to Montgomery?
rn 7 rpi iUii COURT: 1 sustain it to tnnc question.

Q Is it also a fact --
rpTrp 1 iiH» COURT: You want to wait?
-rrj SMITH: Excuse me.
rn r tv?i ran COURT: I sustain it to that question;

he didn’t know anything about the 9th as far as the march j.s
concerned, so that objection is sustained.
Q Did the group defy the order of this court or disooey the order

of this court -- 
A No.

LIR. GREENBERG: Objection; that calls for a legal

conclusion, your honor.
Q Let me finish —  entered on March 9, a copy of which was served

on you, enjoining you and other citizens from attempting oc
march from Selma to i-iontgomex’y ;

A I don’t know --
HR. AMAKER: There has been —
MR. GREENBERG: Objection.



217

HR. MAKER: There has been an objection; don’t
answer.

THE COURT: Have you completed your question?
MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Sustained.

Q Did you disobey the order?
MR. GREENBERG: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SMITH: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Recess court, ten minutes.
COURT CRIER: Court will be in recess ten minutes.
(At which time, 3:40 p.n., a recess was had until 

3:30 p.m., at which time the hearing continued)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Pitts.

BY MR. P. II. PITTS:
q you say that you were one of the principal organisers of the 

march which took place in Selma this paso Sunday mom oelma oo 
Montgomery?
CorreCo•
And you say that you were aware of the order which was issued 
by Governor Wallace?
I had heard it.

A
Q

A
Q You had heard of the order?

Unofficially.
Uh, huh; and. when you started out on this march, did you have



knowledge that the State Troopers were on the other side of the
bridge?
No.
You had no knowledge of that?
No; I knew the State Troopers were in town and all around, I 
didn’t know they was at no specific point.
Uh, huh; when was the first time that you had knowledge of it? 
When I --
When you crossed over the bridge and saw them?
Yes.
And you say you walked down to the foot of the bridge and 
walked out about twenty-five or thirty feet and you were

then
ordered

to halt?
Further than that.
Uh, huh* but after a certain distance you were ordered to halt 
by Maior Cloud?
Correct.
And he told vou tnat this march was unlawful, ano. cnnt it coaid 
not be tolerated, it was dangerous for all the citizens of the 
State of Alabama; is that correct?
Correct.
And asked you to disperse?
Correct.
And you did not disperse; is that correct?
Well I wish —  I had two minutes, and I used a minute and five



2 19

seconds.
You had a minute and five seconds?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
And vou were looking at your watch and talking zo major C3.cud 
at the same time and telling him that you wanted to talk to
him?
Yes.
Uh, huh; and after this minute and five seconds, you said that 
the Troopers then moved into you holding the billy clubs up 
like this?
Yes.
Then vou said that they lunged into you?
Yes.
And did they jab you?
They jabbed; yes.
Did they strike you on top of the nead
Yes.
Uh, huh; and did they knock you down?
Yes.
And did they run over you?
Yes.
And when was the Fosse coming in?
That was after the3r —  Posse came in —  ixrst time j_ saw hue 
Posse was after the Major Cloud gave the order to regroup. 
Was this while the Troopers were all jabbing you in tne —



120

1MR. GREENBERG; Excuse me; let him answer the 
question; let him answer the question.

THE COURT: The objection is sustained. Address
your remarks to the court, please.

HR. GREENBERG: (Nodded to indicate affirmative repljv
Q Go ahead?
A When Major Cloud ga.ve the —  the order to regroup, and we were 

trying to pick up the wounded and console the wounded, and they 
came back and began to throw tear gas is the first time I 
observed the Posse.

Q Uh, huh; and where were you all this time when the Troopers werfe 
moving in?

A I was at the head of the line.
Q You was at the head of the line?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative -reply)

Q

Did you get hit?
Yes.
And -- but yet on --- on this -- on your direct examination you 
testified to all these things that you saw, such as Sheriff Jin 
Clark and his possemen and his deputies, you said that you saw 
them while the Troopers were moving in?
I never did.
h'hat were you doing when the Troopers were moving into you?
1 don’t understand your question.
What —  did you cover up your head?



221

A Yes.
r'' Did you fall down on the ground?

A A J- J- 02 t na t •
Q And you are sure that you saw the poss

into the woods, chasing tear gas —  th:
is that correct?

A Ho.
Q Did you testify on direct that you saw
- X . Ho * I never said a posseman had a gas

Q
A

4- V ^ J- O

after the Troopers attacked us when I saw the —  wnen the 
possemen were chasing people.
How long?
Ten —  ten. fifteen minutes —  ten —  approximately ten minuted

Q Uh, huh; and you stood over there in tiiat tear gas

gas mask for ten or fi:ftcen minu.too?

No.
Vê, Where did you go?
A moving about trying to get back aeroS 3 the bridge.

Trying to get back across the oridge 9

-1 (Nodded to indicate affirmative re'oly)
and teas \! J u-. o when you saw that?

A (Nodded to indicate af iTT-ld O Ave re'oly)
When all j- ’. r 

Uii.-. s was going on?

A Jcrrect.
Q And you are sure it waQ o c* c oO  L, O  VJ wmei:>?



I

009/ -

All
Yes •

ight. Ilow, you said that you cane bach across the bridge; 
s that correct? 
orre c t.

Lff Jin Clark when you cane back across theAnd did 3rou see Sir
bridge? 
Correct 
And where was he ?
he was over at the
was over at the le
Over on Jr  V) p left h
I would 3 3 .  y standi

left, not —  when v/e came off the bridge, he

near in the vicinity of West Broad and —  
not West Broad, Broad and Waters, an Broad and ub.oers.
Broad and Water; is that —  was he standing over there near the 
Selma Time s-Journa1 ?
I don’t know where the Selma Times-Journal is.
Over there on the right ox tae or..ago as you are going across

the bridge?
lies,
Uh, huli: is that where he was standing?
Yes' he wasn’t standing, he was moving about, and I ooserved a...
in this area and his moving.
And was anybody —  what were you doing when you were observing 
him; were you running across the bridge, or just what were you

doing?



o o o

'Jell, I observed him. I guess, for a period more than just, 
you know, instantaneously, I was running, sometimes ducking anc. 
dodging, pulling people in, picking people up.
Uh, huh.
I was trying to watch the Sheriff.
Were there a lot of people hollering and carrying on?
Yes, a lot of people hollering and carrying on.

it 0.f noise; was there a lot of no:i.se?
se; I don’t know what ;rou mean by •'lot

but there were noise.
I mean the Negroes that were coming back across the bridge, 
were they hollering, and you said they were helping, carrying 
some of the wounded, and et cetera?
The Negroes were hollering, the white citizens were cheering 
on the side, the possemen were hollering, Sheriff Clark was 
hollering.
Now, and you said Sheriff Clark was standing over here on
this corner?
I di-dn T t say he wa s —
saw nilm. moving around
Lloving around, and was
Clarv say, ;‘Go get the
That time plus other t

mding anv placo I _

Pier times as we went on toward the church; I 
heard him say that several times.
How far were you from Sheriff Clark when you heard him say thi



224

Varied lengths” I guess the first time approximately from here 
to the wall, the next time as we turned the corner and he ran 
across the street with a group he probably came as close as 
from here to 3̂ ou, on down the streets different times I heard 
him at least —  I heard him say it, I sav, approximately four
times.
Uh, huh; you heard him over all this noise you just testified 
about ?
And other possemen were cursing, '“'Get the niggers and the 
white son of a oaten —  the white loving son oj. a bitcnes 
the nigger loving son of a bitches.”
And you are sure, you are positive, that you heard Sherifi. 
Clark say what you just testified to?
Yes; yes.
And you heard him over all this noise tnao you just oestio-ied 

to?
Yes; yes.
From here over there to that wall?
it wasn’t that --
It was that far?
It wasn’t that much noise; it wasn’t any, you know, the degree

of noise.
Uh, huh; now, were there a lot 
on these corners?
Well, there were

of white people standing around

white people, don’t know what you mean,



225

lot,,! whether you mean twenty or a thousand.
A large -- a large group, two or three thousand, a hundred 
fifty?
Ho; largest group of whites I observed at any one point was 
over on the east side of the bridge, but over on —  I guess 
this would be the west side, the Selma side of the bridge, 
there were clusters of whites at various points along the —  
Huh, huh; and were they allowed to come down to the area where 
the bridge was, right there at the foot of the bridge?
Well, yes; they were on different corners; 1 don’t remember —  
they were on —  like when we got over —  cane —
As a matter of fact, that whole area was sealed off in there, 
wasn’t it, by police?
No, it was whites in there: it was whites in there.
Law enforcement —
No, whites, citizens, white men, I don’t know, white men and 
white women: white people were there.
Standing right there by the bridge?
Hot right by the bridge; the first group I observed is like 
you come over the bridge and turned right on V/aters, was acros 
—  that would be on, 1 guess, the west —  well, on that, corner 
Uh, huh; but law enforcement did seal off the area up -- you 
know where Garter’s Drug Store is?
T don’t know this; 1 know where Carter’s Drug Soore is, sure, 

know where Filcher-I-icBryde ’ s Drug Store isYou in that block?



226

Yes.
And that area was sealed off?
I don’t know this.
All right, okay: and —  and you said that you ran into a house? 

Yes.
Whose house was that; do you know?
I don’t know the lady’s name.
Uh, huh: was it a white lady or a Negro?
Negro.
Uh, huh; and she said that Jim Clark had given orders to get 
the leaders?
One leading the line with tne claca sure.
Uh, huh: and did you have on a black suit?
I did.
What did Sheriff Clark, have on that day?
His uniform.
His uniform; uh, huh; and what —  what does his uniform look 

like?
I’m afraid I want —  I want to think on that, because I saw hir 
a hundred times that one day.
If you saw him that many tines, you ought to know what his 
uniform looks like?
Yes, I --- I am not positive: I think he had on his uniform. 

Khaki uniform?
Well, he wears —



227

Q Green?
A He wears -- no, he wears beige, usually, beige, two different

colors of beige.

Q Did he have on his hat with the salad dressing as —  as you

all refer to it at the mass meetings?
Ai  _ I think so.
Q All right; and he had that on that day, too?

A Well, lie had on a hat.

Q.

A

0

Uh, huh; did he have on a helmet or a hat?
I am not sure of that.
All right; and are you sure that 3rou heard Jim Clark say, "Go 
get those God damned niggers1'?
I an pretty sure, I am very sure, I am positive.
You are pretty sure or are you very sure?
I am positive.
You are positive?

A Uh, huh.
Q But you don't know whether he had on —  what he iiaa on at that 

time?
A Well, I can't necessarily describe his enact attire.
Q Uh, huh; but î ou can describe what he said?

A Yes.
Q And you are positive that it was Sheriff James G. Clark, Jr., 

that said it?
A I am positive.



226

Q Okay. How, and are you positive he said this at the end of the 
Edmund Pettus Bridge, on the Selma side of the Edmund Pettus 
Bridge?

A Yes, sir; I didnTt see him across —  I dcr_Tt remember seeing 
Sheriff Clark across the other side.
All right; now, you also said that 3rou saw possemen chasing 
children?

a

Q
A

Q
A

Yes.
Uh, huh; and were they chasing them on the horses?
Yes. some of them —  some of them were on foot, and some oi them 
were on horses.
Where were you when you saw them chasing them?
Veil cert of the time I was running, dodging and taking cover, 
and gathering people up, doing different things; possemen 
chased us all the way from off the bridge right to the church. 
Were the children following the marchers?
There were —  there were —  there were persons under twenty--oni

Q

Q

A
Q
A

in the march.
Uh, huh; did you advocate taking juveniles out on the 

No, we didn’t.
Did vou try to take these juveniles and tell them not 
this march, that it would be dangerous?
Well, we did have an age limit on the march.

hi/;hway?

to go on

What was the age limit? 
t  _ _  t  believe it was seventeen.



229

Seventeen?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
And did you inspect these lines before you left to determine if 
anybody under seventeen was in the lines?
No, people are usually obedient and cooperative.
They usually say what you —  they usually obey your commands? 
No, not our demands: it is whatever the group agrees, they 
usually are —
Every group lias a leader, and I mean tney usually ooev oho 
leaderTs demands* is that —
We believe in seif government, so more —  several people have
something to say about —  
Uh, huh.
—  the decision.
Now, when you got back down 
Chapel on Sunday?

did you go back down to Brown's

I finall3r did.
You finally did?
Yes.
Were y o u  down there when the brickbats and garoage can cops 
were thrown at those —

MR. GREENBERG: There is —  there is no evidence —
THE COURT: Objection overruled.

LIE. P hi. PITTS: There may be.



TIE COURT

230

: Mr. Pitts, you don't have to argue this*
I have ruled with you.
Q Did 3rou see that?
A No.
Q Did you hear about it?
A About the —  explain your question again?
Q Did you have any knowledge of any brickbats or garbage can tops 

being thrown at any law enforcement officiaxs at Brown's Chapel 
on Sunday afternoon?

A I didn’t see any of this.
Q And you have no knowledge of it?
A I don’t.
Q All right. Now, where were you before you came to Selma, 

Alabama?
A I came to Selma directly from Atlanta.
Q From Atlanta?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And how long had you been in Atlanta before you came to Selma? 
A Almost a year.
Q Almost a year?
A Just -- yes.
Q Here you in Savannah, Georgia, at any time?
A Correct.
q And did you lead demonstrations in Savannah, Georgia?

A Correct.



231

lar aiield.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t know how far he wants to

pursue it; go ahead.
Q And what was the purpose of these demonstrations in Savannah, 

Georgia?
A To get —  to get —  to attain first class citizenship and to 

carry on activity that would redeem the soul of America and —
Q And was there any —  was there any violence in Savannah, Georgik

THE COURT: I don’t believe we ought to get involved
in that.
Q Well, how many —  just how many towns have you been in and led 

demonstrations?

MR. GRAY: We object, your honor: this is going too

1 was m  savannah, ana —  and actually, Savannah is the only 
place I was considered as the chairman or the president of the 
Saint Augustine, Florida?
I was not the chairman or president.
Were you were you in Saint Augustine?
I was in Saint Augustine.
How, at each of these places you have been, there has always 
been an outbreak of some sort of violence: is that correct? 
That there has —  well, I don’t —  no, I couldn’t say for sure. 
There was violence in Saint Augustine, wasn’t there?
Yes.

IIP’. GRAY: Your honor, we are going to object.



-32

How. you say that you are head of the voter registration aspect
*  r* j  * Q  O  T  f  < 9
WJ_ OxitJ O  • ' J * -1—1 • • •

And education.
Uh, huh; and you say that you went to the Court House one day 
with some local ministers and attempted to go in a certain door 
and you were not allowed to --
Ho; went down —  these people went down to get registered; I 
went with them.
Uh, huh; was this after Judge Daniel Thomas issued his order 
designating which door would be used for voter registration?
It was before he issued his order.
All right; and you wanted to go into what is commonly called 
as the Sheriff’s entrance; is that correct?
No; I don’t know wnetner tnat correct or nor.
The front door, what you call the front door?
T don’t know whether that is the front door or not.
Jell, did you want to go an the Lauderdale Street entrance or 
the Alabama Avenue?
It is the door across from the Lauderdale and Alabama, it is 
on —  the Ala,cana entrance, _l  ̂aj.n.~ iu ..s .ilabauia ohao i uns on. 
way on --
That is the door you wanted to go into?
Hof I didn’t want to go in any door, the citizens that pay

:es were des:'.rous of going in tii
,ier:: .o  "I 

h J__ L v /-L.ark tell them they c ouL



233

Street entrance -- door?
He told then to so in another door.
And which is the front door of the Court House?
I don’t know it is the front.

And you say oiia ̂ you were arrested ---
V o  o  J_ VSJ o  •

-- at that time ? You know the —  the door

lights up on t he outside of it, don’t you:'
I never noticed two big lights.
You have never noticed the lights on the outside of the xront 
door of the Court House as many times as you have been there?

Never noticed them.
You know where the elevators are to the Court House?

No.
You don’t know where they are?

Ho.
How rnanv times have you been to the Dallas County Court house 

since you have been in Selma?
How many times have I been in the Court House or to the Court 

House?
To the Court House and in the Court mouse ?
Well, which one you want me vo answer?

Both?
I don’t know how many times I have been to the Court, House, 
but in the Court House, I have been in the Court House mayce



- j  nt

four —  four tlines —  four or five tines.
Un huh: 3rou know which door you are supposed to use for voter 
registration, donTt you?
IIo.
You do not know after Judge Thomas issued his order?
Oh, after Judge Thomas issued his order?
Uh, huh; and that is the front door of the Court House, which 
is on the Lauderdale Street entrance; correct?
I don’t know it was the front.
Now, you said that you were carried upstairs and you were not 
carried before any Judge or magistrate; is that correct: after 
3rou were arrested ty Sheriff Clark?
Well, which arrest you talking —  on sane occasions we were 
carried upstairs, sometimes we usually entered on the docket 
and carried away to the other counties.
I am talking about this particular day you testified to on 
direct examination?
This particular day —
X believe you testified on direct, if 1 am correct 
Yeah, we were carried upstairs this particular day, we did nob 
come before a Judge, we were carried —  we were carried to jail 
that day, if my serve —  I am sure, without seeing a Judge.
You are positive that you didn’t see a Judge?
We didn’t see -- I didn’t see no Judge.
You didn’t see Judge Hugh Mallory?



235

I didn’t see no Judge until we were released.
Until you were released?
Yes.
And you are positive of that?
Yes.
IIow, just one or two more questions; on these lines that you 
have led down to the Dallas County Court House, is it not true 
that there have been numerous juveniles in these lines, and 
also m a n y  nonresidents of the State of Alabama and of Dallas 
County, Alabama?
Ho juveniles have been in any line I have led to amount to 
anvthing, nor have I led any lines to the Dallas County Court 
House with any appreciable number of nonresidents of Dallas 

County.
Pave there been many juveniles taking pare in tnese ciemonsna­

tions?
in some demonstrations juveniles tooK par^, out not no line 

that I led.
Tn other words, you didn’t lead a line witn an3r juveniles in 

it then?
I won’t say an3r, but not to my knowledge were any in there: 1 

am positive no appreciable number was tnere.
But as a matter of fact there were many juveniles in these line 
ever3' time thejr came to the Court House i
Not every time; sometime there were no juveniles in them.



236

Q How many marches have you led on the Dallas Count]*- Court House?
A Three.
Q Three?
A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q And how many people were in these marches every time?
A It varied. One day there was a hundred and ten of us; one day

it was a large number, five or sin hundred of us; another day 
it was -- I don’t —

q  l/ere there many white people standing up on the various corners 
around Dallas County Court House?

A No; no.
Q None?
A Very few.
Q Very few?
A Very few.

Uh, huh; no large groups of them gathered up on the corners:

A No large groups.
Q Now do you have any knowledge of a boycott which is taking 

place now in Selma, Alabama?
A N o.
Q You have no knowledge of it?
A Not I have some knowledge of a withholding -- witnnola_ng 

patronage campaign.
Q Nell, withholding patronage 

that?

campaign; do you nave knowledge of



237

0

A
H

A
Q
A

Q
A

C)

o’

Of a withholding patronage campaign, I have heard it discussed,
I have not participated in it: I know veiyr little about it, 
really; I have been giving my attention to the voter registration 
aspect.
Have you been at mass meeting when this was discussed?
Briefly: it has not been —  our mass meetings are usually taken 
up with voter registration time and dealing with police brutalib 
and so forth, but boycotts very briefly.
Uh huh: do you know —  do you have any knowledge of a with­
holding patronage campaign from the Selma Bus Lines?
T have heard this discussed very briefly: 1 heard you mention 
the busses today* I didnTt even know, really, that they nad 
bought little --
Is S.C.L.C. -- is this sponsoring this boycott?

No: no.
Is 3IIGG sponsoring this boycott?
Not to my knowledge.
Is the Dallas County Voters League sponsoring this boycott?
Well, I can sajr this, not to my knowledge; i Know it is a it 
is an organised part of the movement.
On the part of all three of the organizations?
On the part of voter registration and political education, we 
have tried to stick to the point.
You havenTt been -- what you are testifying, you are not 
directly concerned with the withholding patronage campaign?



238

That is not —  not why I —  my job is dealing with voter 
registration and political education; I try to stick to that tb 
best I can.
Now„ other —  you keep talking about this inhuman treatment and 
disfranchisement of the Negro citizens of Dallas County, Alabama 
first, explain to me what you mean by the inhuman treatment?
Like one day we were going —  we went into the Court house 
around on the Lauderdale side, the one the Judge said go in, 
we were not going to register and vote, but I was with four
ministers, five with seven ministers, we wanted to go
in and have a meeting with one of the Registrars or one of the 
secretaries there, and the Sheriff met us and said we could —  
we could not even go to the window, and the registration Oi.4.ice 
was closed, that is -- we say, “Sheriff, we are not here to 
register.u “Well, you get out o.'- here now," be say, ^e would 
like to see the Chief Registrar.:i “He is not in." Says, "We 
would like to see any other Registrar." “Then you have to go 
to the homes and select1*’ —  he ended up cow prodding us and 
jabbing us with billy sticks and drove us clean out of the 
Court House.
When was this?
This was the day that they arrested a hundred and fifty-six of 
us, and I think the largest arrest, maybe, in Selma; they 
carried us straight to the Camp Selma, and they carried us dowr 
and kept us three days in jail with no blankets, went down to



239

sixteen —  well, one fellow told us there, we didn’t have a 
thermometer, it was sixteen degrees.

MR. p. H. PITTS: That is not responsive to the
question.

Till COURT: You asked him what he meant by inhuman
treatment, Mr. Pitts: overrule.
A They told us Sheriff Clark --
Q Go ahead?
A —  they asked him why we couldn’t have —  people eighty-five, 

eighty-six years old, we asked the guards there why we couldn’t 
have seme blankets and some mattresses, some something, and the)', 
say, ”We are directly under the orders ox Sheriff Clark,” and 
they fed us food, bread and watered peas, for three days, 
wouldn’t let us make a call to a lawyer, wouldn’t let us call 
our families and homes, they didn’t know where we were, when 
he said, “Sheriff Clark1' —  we were down at Camp Camden.
Alabama, the fellow who is in charge there, he said, i:I have

jctly from Sheriff Clark. •*
i 41 a’nflmfl?

■hey carried us down to —  we were xn Camp

to ta iV CD orders cl:

y That at Camp Cam<
A Wait a minute, 1 '

Selma > and then
Camden, Alabama.

Q And t.his is what
A This LL S part of

Q What about the d

die inhuman treatment:

n-h*?



2/f0

The disfranchisement —  there are Negroes in Dallas County with 
master’s degrees have been down si;: times, at least sin times, 
to try to become a registered voter, and they have been denied 
the right to participate in self government and have been 
forced to live under a system, taxation without representation. 
And you testified about you wasn’t given an3r blankets; isn’t it 
as a matter of fact that you were given blankets and mattresses 
but they were stuffed down in the commodes at Camp Selma —
We were given no —
—  and the plumbing was torn out of Camp Selma: is that correct 
No.
That is not correct?
I wasn’t in Camp Selma but a day.
Uh, huh.
I was down at Camp Camden.
All right, was it true at Camp Camden?
No.
Was not true?
No.
You are absolutely positive -- 
Positive.
~ — O J_ <j i id U •

MR. ?. K. PITTS: All right, that’s all
THE COURT: Hr. Kail.
MR. MeLEAH FITTS: Wait just one minut



241

.. la t • P. H. PITTS: That’s all, your honor.
THE p attt? m .uuUiu „ Redirect, Mr. Hall.
L'lR • HALL: Excuse me. your honor.
i‘iiw • P. K. PITTS: Just one more —  a couple of more

A

A

aestions. please.
(by Mr. P. H. Pitts) You testified to some bullwhips which were 
used by the possemen?
Yes.
Did you sec these bullwhips?
Yes.
How long were they?
Vie 1 1 . I am a country boy, and I know a bullwhip, I would say 
they would stretch —  1 could strike you with it from Here, but
they had them balled up, had them, you know, folded like th

r Uil, huhi and you are positive that they were bullwhips?
A lie -- in the back in Attapulgus , Georgia, we call them

bullv/os c
Q Uh, huh; how raany oh the possemen had these bullwhips?

A I observed -- I know I saw about -- I say five or six: I am
sure all cf them did).x’t have them, some did have them.

o Uh, huh: you are pos:itive they had these whips?

** I am p 0 S  _  wV 0  .  _l  3  U \I them, they hit people with them, they

down in the crowds.
t7to p t-ti — v • i  • i - •'

Tv.-r.vio • n*,nf iliiD. x iicl U is all.
THE COUP.?: Redirect.



I

c

9 IO

RED HR 3 CT K 1 J LIIIATICi:
R. HALL:

Jiliiams. do ttgu know .L .L J. J A .  I Q  V .3 r*1 - 9

Of Dallas County, Alabama?

And do you aim m  t i n s  ecu: room” how is he dressed?
he has on a blue striped tie now, and he is behi
’ s head, I can’t see him.

- - will you just step down 1iere and show us, wi
please, sir; we just want to be sure 3̂ 011 know him, there is sorjie 
question about you having seen him; point him out?
This is Sheriff Clark with his hand on the seat here, the 
black —  blue so;:, black shoes, and striped tie, bald headed. 
Bald headed; all right, sir; take the stand. How, Hr. William^ 
on Sunday did 3/ou see any of the persons in your line of 
march engage the State Troopers, the Sheriff’s deputies, or 
the Sheriff’s Posse in any way physically?
No, sir.
Either by initiating some physical action or defending 
themselves?
N o.
Did you see any of the Negroes or white persons who were in 
your line of march with any type weapon or anything that might 
be construed to be a weapon?



2 43

No.
Did you at any time see either any of the State Troopers, the 
Sheriff’s deputies, or the Posse people, or any of the horses 
hurt in any way by any of those marchers?
No.
I believe you said that you went in the lady’s house to dodge -• 
I mean to take care of yourself, and later on you went on to 
the church: is that right* after you retreated?
Correct.
Would you tell us, did you find anything unusual on Sylvan 
Street or at the church when you got there?
Yes.
What did you find?
Well, ambulances were screaming, streaming, taking the injured 
to the hospital, Sheriff Clark was walking up and down with 
his billy stick, and three guys followed him, and they had 
shotguns or rifles, and they were —  they had —  they were 
running any person they saw on the street, wouldn’t let no one 
come out of the church, wouldn’t let no one come in the church 
and we were in the parsonage, wouldn’t let anyone stand out on 
the porch or lock out a window! in inch, we were upstairs, 
and he saw us looking out the window, he start screaming, “'Get 
back there, that window,n so and so and so, this was this 
type —
Did you see any State Troopers at this uiiue or la^er on m



2 44

Sylvan Street?
Yes, State Troopers —  State Troopers were there.
Were they there at the tine you returned? Or were they there 
later on?
Yes, some State Troopers —  some State Troopers were there wher 
I returned to the church, and others came in.
Did you -- did they at any time make a formal formation in 
Sylvan Street before the church; did they present arms?
It was something like present arms; it was a —  it was a type 
of formation.
Did they have rifles?
Yes.
Or shotguns in addition to sidearmst
Rifles, and I know —  looked like —  I think it is a gas gun, 
it has a large barrel, and it looks like a shotgun.
They were fully armed?
Fully armed.
They had sidearms, pistols, bill}7' cluos, and the long guns, you 
don’t know which ones they were?
Yes, pistols, billy clubs, the regular artillery, nancicmis anc.
so forth.
Let me show you this photograph, s..r, neie .'.t is, marked 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 9, ask you if you can tell us what it is? 
This is —  this is the general type of order for the next 
three_until about five o’clock or six o’clock that afternoo^i.



o ; r

Q Did you observe this; is it a true likeness of what you saw?
A This is a true likeness, plus not only up and down the streets,

but all --
Q Gan you identify this as being a true likeness of what you saw? 
A Yes.

THE COURT: This is on the '7th, March 7?
WITNESS: Yes.

Q On March 7?
A Yes; yes.

MR. HALL: Your honor please —  pardon me.
MR. SMITH: I have seen the photograph, and we have

no objection.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
MRc HALL: Thank you, your honor.
THE COURT: Let me see it.

0 Mr. Williams, do you know how many persons were wounded, treate 
for wounds or hospitalised, the total number of people in 
hospitals and treated for wounds, on Sunday, March 7, in this 
march?

A The last official count I was given was eighty-seven, the last 
E i g ht y - s e ve n ?
-- official --
Of that number, can you tell us how many were hospitalised for 
one or more days?

A I only

Q

Q

know about



2 46

Q
A
Q
A
Q

If you do not —
j know of about twenty that I happen to know -- 
No guesses -- 
No.
_’out you do know that have been reported to you that there
were at least eighty-seven hospitalized or treated for 
It was more than eighty-seven: this was the last official count
"o .ficl U X O O O if •

MR. HALL: I believe that’s all.
THE COURT: Recross.
MR. SMITH: (Shook head to indicate negative reply)
THE COURT: Recross.
HR. P. H. PITTS: Yes, sir.

RECROSS EXAMINATION:
BY MR. P. !' PVTTS*11 « 1 .1. i i u t

Q Now, I show you

A

Q
A

been introduced into evidence, and ask you if you will point 
me out a posseman or a member of the Dallas County Sherux’s 
Department in that picture:
There is none.
None in uhere?
In this picture.
You testified that that truly depicted the scene as you saw 
it down there that afternoon: is that correct?
Yes, plus plenty of possemen were there: it just happened to ojs



247

none in that picture.
Uh, huh; and there were large groups of people in the street? 
No, not at this tine.
I am talking about before?
No.
There wasn’t large groups of people milling around out in the 
streets?
Ho; well, at one point when they were trying to get into houses 
or churches or hones, when we first got back.
You mean to tell me that there were not people, Negro citizens, 
standing out on the street in front of Brown’s Chapel all the 
way from Brown’s Chapel all —  back down to the Baptist churcn, 
and white citizens, too; you mean to tell me they were not 
standing out on the street -- 
It wasn’t.
—  right after this occurrence happened at the bridge on yrour
wav back say, lor cthe next hour after you arrived back?
Iio.
At Brown Chapel?
No; the only Negroes and white persons I saw was trying to 
make cover or get in some house and running, the only ones I 
saw, no one standing still.
And they were not milling around out in that street?
No; positively no.
Did you ever see one of those bullwhips uncoiled that you



O} p *~LlO

testified to?
Uncoiled?
(Nodded to indicate affirmative reply) The ones that 3rou said 
you could hit me with from right there on the witness stand?
No, they had them balled up, and they were riding along against 
the line hitting them.
You are not sure if it was a bullwhip or not, are you?
Yes” one hit this close to me, the man rode along beside me 
with it in his hand.
Uh, huh: and you are positive it was a bullwhip?
Yes.
And you said you saw about _our or rive bullwhips?
At least that many, with possemen in the immediate area.

MR. P. H. PITTS: That is all.
THE COURT: Anything further? all right, you have

any matter you want to take up, gentlemen, before we recess for 

the day?
MR. MeLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir* Judge, we have certain

witnesses here, we are going to —  1 don’o know whether they are —- 
this witness may —  this man here is releasee, as xai â> we are 
concerned, I presume --- I don'-t believe that John Lewis

THE COURT: I canTt hear you.
MR. MeLEAN PITTS: I say I don’t believe that John

Lewis answered, but we are releasing tnese witnesses, Ilosea

Williams



249

THE COURT: You take care of that: you subpoena them
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Yes, sir; I was going to release

them here in court, but I didn’t want to release them without the
permission of other counscel. •

THE COURT: Well, take it up with them after we
recess.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. HALL: Your honor please, may this witness, if

it is no objection —

THE COURT: I have no objection.
MR. HALL: May this witness --
THE COURT: If you gentlemen agree upon it.
MR. HALL; Let him go?
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Let him go.
THE COURT: Anything else now you want to take up

with the court before we recess?
MR. GREENBERG: (Shook head to indicate negative

reply)
MR. McLEAN PITTS: Judge, what I would like to know

is something about we are going to have a good many witnesses from 
Selma to bring over here; we want some time uO call bacK over tuera 
and make arrangements to bring those witnesses over here.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: And by the time they rest their



250

case.
THE COURT: I will see if I can assist you with that

When do you gentlemen anticipate resting? We just had three 
witnesses.

MR. GREENBERG: It is difficult to say at this
point, your honor; I would think that we would run part of tomorrow 
morning in any event.

MR. MAKER: I -would think the better part of all dâ
HR. GREENBERG: We might even go into the afternoon.
THE COURT: Hr.

MR. DOAR: Well
over six or seven. We have sor
of t h i s, y o ur h o n o r•

i-p t rc? I  itCj COURT: Yes
HR . DOAR: I wa;

to tonight.

THE COURT: All
to say that t he pislintiffs and
up ail of tomorrow with their '

HR. HALL: Y e s,

MR . MAI S]. I

MR. hAnL: That

t. Then :.s C Xcl-L r J- 3
pia:mt ii x-intervener Wrin

[ think that would be

THE COURT: Then in response to your inquiry, Mr.
Pitts, I would suggest you would be safe in having ’your witnesses 
come Monday morning.



151

HR. KcLEAN PITTS: Monday morning.
TIE COURT: Monday morning: they will take up all

day tomorrow, Frida]*, then we will recess tomorrow afternoon until 
Monday morning. Anything else? anything?

v r-r-) ( T T T  m  T Mill . Oi-i-Lii i ? O y S J- JL #

.U .Li. n_ne o1clock in the
p .m a recess was had

9;00 a.m., March 12, 1965, at which time the hearing continued) 
THE COURT; All right, gentlemen, are we ready to
ing of the o e 3 o imony?
MR. ÎxJLiL l Yes, sir.
the COURT. Plaintiffs? For the def
I'll. SMITH: Yes, sir.
ni ilxll COURT. Are you reaay to proceed
MR. MeLEAL fiiij. ieo J  S — U* •
i' il" - • WILKINSOM: Yes, sir.
rnTJTP COURT: All right.
MR. HALL: Dr. Dinkins s please.
MARq ] ' A T ~ What is the name ?
MR. IitiIjXj c Dinkins, Dr. Dinkins

A O +- r* O

DR. WILLIAM JB. DXMKJ-LS, wxuness xo± 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EIIaMIHAT 101 i

he Plaintiffs, having oeen

BY MR. aMAK,ulll »
Q Will you state your name, please?



252

William B. Dinkins, M.D.
What is your residence, Dr. Dinkins?
Ily residence is 2507 Etheridge Avenue, Selma, Alabama.
Are you a practicing physician in the City of Selma, licensed 
bv the State of Alabama?•j

I am.
Dr. Dinkins, on Sunday, March 7, was there a first aid sec up 
in the City of Selma?
Yes, there was.
Where was that?
There was a first aid facility set up at the parsonage of the 
Brown Chapel Church.
Can you tell the court approximately how many cases were 
received at the first aid station?
We received from between sixty and seventy cases.
Of that number, were there —  was there a number sufficiently
serious that they were —

THE COURT: Received how many?
WITNESS: Between sixty to seventy cases.

What —  when -- when those cases came in to you, wnat did iou 
do with the more serious cases?
The more serious cases were referred to the hospital f1 om the 

receiving station.
Now, when you say, nThe hospital,il what hospital are you 

referring to?



253

Q
A
Q

Q

A

They were sent to Good Samaritan Hospital. 
To the emergency facility?
To the emergency facility.
At Good Samaritan Hospital?
That4s right.
Approximately how many such cases were 
facility of the hospital?

referred to the emergenc

1 would say about a dozen, maybe fourteen.
Of this approximate dozen cases, what were —  how serious were 
the injuries that were referred?
Well, the injuries that were referred, fractures, broken bones, 
and lacerations, that is where the skin was broken and needed 
to be sewed up, things that would not be done at first aid 
station.

Q I see. Were there cases of severe gas injuries, injuries on — 
A Yes, several, i would say at least two, severe gas cases were 

referred, also.
Q But those cases that were treated at the first aid station, 

persons were treated and —  and sent home?
A The ones treated at the first aid were treated and released. 

They were mostly the tear gas in the eyes.
MR. MeLEAN PITTS: I didn’t get that.
WITNESS: Those cases that were treated at the

station were mostly from tear gas in the eyes.
I see. The injuries that you treated at the first aid station.



25/;

where were they incurred? 
a  Where were the3r incurred?
Q Yes?
a  It is ray understanding —

MR. McLEAN PITTS: Now, we object.
MR. SMITH: We object to what his understanding is.
MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object to what his understand!
THE COURT: Sustain objection.

Q Did the patient -- any of the patients that you treated inform 
you of the place where the injuries --

MR. McLEAN PITTS: We object.
MR. SMITH: We object to this, if it please the

court.
THE COURT: I sustain it.

Q Were you —  were there any other physicians in attendance with 
you at the first aid station?

A I was -- I was in charge of the aid station; we had assistance 
from other people.

Q At what tine did you go on duty at the first aid station?
A About noon.
Q And how long was It until you completed your treatment of the 

persons who came there with injuries?
A Well, I stayed there until about eleven p.m.
Q Was there another first aid station set up?
A On Sunday/-?



255

Q Yes?
A Not to my knowledge.
C] Dicl you take any medical histom.es of the persons at the time?
A Ho; this was merely receiving and determining whether the case^ 

were serious enough to go to the hospital, or whether to just 
keep them there; it was more or less a receiving station rathet 
than a treatment station, really.

MR. MeLEAH PITTS: Judge, we can’t quite hear him
over here.
A It was more of a receiving station rather than a treatment

station, really: of course, very minor things we treated there
Q Did any of the patients that you treated inform you of the 

place where their injuries occurred?
A I couldn’t say that they did; but I can add this remark, I was 

listening —  well before patients began coming in I was
listening to a portable radio, and from the com--  radio
commentator who reports —

MR . McLSAN PITTS: We object t;o that.
MR . SMITH: We object, -- ■£ the court please.
THE COURT: That is sustained.

MR . AMAKER: That’s all •*

THE COURT: For the Goveminent?
MR. DOAR: (Shook head to ind:.cate negative
rn 7 -T-i 
1  li-Li COURT: Mr. Smith.

CROSS EXAMINATION:



O  C  ' '250

kf'

n

i i

O

BY MR. SMITH:
Q Dr. Dinkins, who is Dr. MOLDERAH: is
A Moldovan.
Q Moldovan?
A Dr. Moldovan is the physic.i_an from th

Human Rights.
Q And where is he from?
A He is from Hew York City.
Q Hew York City?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were other physicians from out of the

on either Sunday, March 7, or Tuesday,
Yes, sir.
How many other physicians from out of the State were there?
Well, I couldn’t give the enact number: one, two, three, four, 
five —  at least twelve.
At least twelve?
Yes, sir.
Who asked these physicians to come to Selma?
I understand some were —  were -- came from the Medical Committjee 
on Human Rights, who were asked by the S.C.L.C., Southern 
Christian Leadership Conference, to come.
Did Dr. King request that they cone to Selma?
And I understand that some came voluntarily.
When were they requested to come to Selma, if they were requests



257

THE COURT: You are not asking whether there have
been any violations of the Medical Association admission rules or 
the State admission rules, anything like that? If that is what 
you are inquiring into it for —

MR. SMITH: No, sir.
-- I am not interested in that in this

court proceeding.
MR. SMITH:

H

A

0.

I am not asking that, your honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.

If you know, when were these physicians from out of State 
requested to come to Selma?
Well, ail of them were not requested; some volunteered, just 
came on their on from —
Were any of them requested to come?

MR. GRAY: Your honor, we are going to object.
THE COURT: Do you know the answer to that question
WITNESS: I really don’t know.
THE COURT: Well, say you don’t know, we will get

along.
Q When did they come to Selma?
A I do not know when they came to Selma.
Q You do not know what month they came?
A No.

Were any of them there prior to Sunday, March 7?
Some of them I have seen as far back as a month or better.



258'

| Q They might have been in Selma for as much as a month prior to 
March 7?

A I won’t sayr continuously, but I have seen them; yes.
MR. SMITH: I believe that’s all.

3Y MR. McLEAN FITTS:
Q Dr. Dinkins, as I understand you --

THE COURT: I believe we have a rule in the court
about standing when you interrogate witnesses.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: I am sorry; it is all right.
THE COURT: That is ail right.

Dr. Dinkins, as I understand you, you went down to the parsonage 
of Brown Chapel Church on Sylvan Street at about noon on Sunday 
is that correct?

0

Yes, sir: that is correct.

Q What you testified to?
A That’s right , sir.

Q And a first aid station was set up in the parsonage; is that

right?
A A receiving station was set up in the parsonage.

Q A receiving station?
A Yes, sir.
o. Now, what --■ I don’t want you to go into all the medical terms

but just roughly, what did —  what did you have there?

What did we have ?
Yes; what type equipment?



<c>

Q

A
Q
A

Q
A

A

We had mostly —
Roughly: I don’t want to go Into all the technical stuff?
We had ---
I meant just roughly what you had?
Vie had just a common first aid facility: boric —  boric acid 
solution and sodium bicarbonate solution for washing out eyes, 
some splints —  well, we really had first aid material, no 
real medical equipment.
Just the ordinary stuff that you would see in a first aid 
station; is that right?
The first aid station; yes, sir.
That would take care of fractures until you could get them to 
a hospital, what I was talking about?
Merely the first aid.

he splints and that kind ofQ I meant the first aid end of it,
_  -U , . -O .0 0S  l/ U j. I »

A Yes, si:r: no sett:-ng 0f fractures
Q But you had boric cl C' .Ci there for

out you:v eyes?
J- X To wash out eyes; ye s, s ir .

you had that for washing

Q And you had that there at noon; you set that station up at noo 
A Yes, sir.
1 And -- and --- and how many other doctors were there?
A At that time there were perhaps three there: there were some 

at —  different numbers at different times.

! V



26C

All right; now, at that tins no march had started; wasn’t that 
right?
Mo, sir; no march was started at noon.
In other words, the station was set up in anticipation of takin|, 
care of any people that may be injured in the march; is that 
right?
T h e __

LH. C-RAY; We object.
The station was set up

THE COURT: Overrule.
The station was set up to take care of what we would expect to 
occur on a fifty mile march; we were not expecting what 
happened.
On the march; is that right?

A We were just expecting a march.
C i All. right; now, as you had I want to know how many, in your

judgment, in your —  the best of your estimate, how many 
fractures came into that station in —  into the first aid
station, now —
At least three —
-- fractures?
—  fractures, at least* I had no x-ray equipment there, but 
just on superficial —
I mean your observation and diagnosis; that’s right?
I estimated three fractures.



I

A

a

Q

A

261

Three fractures?
A (Nodded to indicate affir:mat! g r p  v» V O  x ep■ly)
0 And now, how many concussions ; did you h

there that you diagnosed?
A Yes, sir; we i ia d. I would say v**ve) S.L,,
r> And the rest was tear gas * .!_ 3 o  i i c l o right
A The rest "c e a. r gas •

How, did --
A Vie 11, not the rest tear g,A D  j; ther0 we re <

,  s :l;: per naps, concussions.

tilings, too. the majority rest vjas tear gas.
All right. Nov;, did -- did ambulances —  when 0 il G 3 G people
were brought back, did they go to the hospital with them, or
did they bring then to the first aid station?
They brought some to the f irst aid station and some to the
hospital, as i understand, it -) 3 niv *—
in other words, some of these people that were brought to the 
first aid station by ambulances and then the ambulances carried 
some from the first aid station over to the hospital; am I 
correct in that?
That is correct.
All right; now, who —  when were the arrangements made with you 
to set up that first aid station?
The Saturday night.
Saturday night --
Saturday (nodded to indicate affirmative reply).



262

-- before; is that right?
Yes, sir.
And who made those arrangements with you?
Well, the arrangements were made during a meeting: there were 
several people present.
And —  well, was it the Student Non-violent Coordinating 
Committee?
q n T P

Huh?
S.C.L.C.
Student -- I mean the —
Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
—  Southern Christian Leadership Conference?
Yes, sir.
They made the arrangements with you: is that right?
Yes, sir.
Did they make any arrangements for compensation to you?
No, sir.
And —  . Did 3̂ ou —  did you give any instructions to these 
marchers before they left the church?
No, sir; 1 did not.
Did you talk to them at all at any time about the effect of 
tear gas and so forth and what they should do ?
I did not.
Did anyone in your presence?



263

BY HR. HALL: 
Q Doctor -

MR. McLEAK PITTS: That* s —  that* s all.
THE COURT; Redirect.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:

THE COURT: Just a minute.
MR. HALL: Oh, I am sorry.
THE COURT: Same counsel interrogate the witness.
MR. HALL: I am sorry, your honor.

• AM AKER: Excuse us a moment, your honor.

BY MR. MAKER:
Q Dr. Dinkins, of the cases that you received at the first aid 

station, did you observe any secondary effects of tear gas.
such as vomiting or something of that sort?
Well, later in the day the secondary effects came on, 
vomiting, that —  that is not an immediate eifect.
I see. Can you estimate the number of such persons who 
exhibited these effects?
Oh, there were quite a few, maybe fifteen to twenty.

Q Were there any children treated by you at the first aid 
A Yes, we saw children.
Q Pardon?

station?

A We saw some children. 
Q About how many?



264

MR. MeLEAK PITTS: I canTt hear.
Q About how mamr children?
A That 'would be difficult to estimate: I didn't keep an age 

record.
Q In your best judgment, would you say there were as many as 

twenty?
MR. MeLEAH PITTS: Now, we object to him cross

examining.
THE COURT: Do not lead the witness. If you have a

iudsment as to how many children you treated, give him your best 
judgment on it.
A Including up to what age; through teenagers?
Q Then I say children, I mean persons under eighteen years of 

age?
A Under eighteen —

MR. I-lcLEAN PITTS: Wait a minute, your honor —  all
his definition of children.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
per'haps twenty, twenty-five
MR. AIiaKj llR e ThatTs all.
THE COURT: Mr . Doar.
MR. DOAR: No.
THE COURT: Mr . Smith.
MR. SMITH: No , sir.

Mr. PittsTHE COURT:



MR. HcLEAU PITTS: Wait just one minute.
RECRC'SS EXAMINATION:

vIR. He LEAK PITTS:
Doctor --

HR. C-AYLS: Get up.
MR. McLEAK PITTS: Excuse me: I am sorry.

Doctor, in your best judgment, what was the youngest person 
that you treated down there? Out of -- out of this march; out 
of this that was brought there to the first aid station?
I think the youngest one was about nine years old.
Mine years old; what was the -- how many —  about now many in 
that age group?
I didn’t see very many that young' perhaps that was the only 

one nine.
The majority of them xvere what we call teenagers, high school 
kids; is that right?
Yes, mostly teenagers.

MR. McLEAN PITTS: All right, that’s aL
rp TjTp J. iULi COURT: Anything further?

MR. m a k e r : No, your honor.

MR. SMITH: n o.
HR. GRAY: Hay this witness be excused?
rptn?1 XJ.-J COURT: I have no objection.

7, X T ',iii t • HcLEAU PITTS: Yes, we excuse him.

HR. SMITH: We excuse him.