Anderson v. City of Albany, GA Transcript of Record Vol. II
Public Court Documents
August 1, 1962
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Anderson v. City of Albany, GA Transcript of Record Vol. II, 1962. 9b85b54b-ac9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/7d3d98ba-e436-470b-b273-bd1ef01789a2/anderson-v-city-of-albany-ga-transcript-of-record-vol-ii. Accessed April 12, 2025.
TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD
UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS
F I F T H C I R C U I T
No.
W. G. Anderson, et al. v.The City of Albany, Georgia, et al.Volume II
Appellants
Appellees
C. B. King221 South Jackson Street Albany, GeorgiaDonald L. Hollowell Cannolene Building (Annex) 859-1/2 Hunter Street Atlanta, GeorgiaJack Greenberg Constance Baker Motley Norman Amaker 10 Columbus Circle New York 19, N. Y.Attorneys for Appellants
H. G. Rawls, Esq.P. O. Box 1496 Albany, GeorgiaEugene Cook, Esq.Judicial Building 40 Capitol Square Atlanta, GeorgiaE. Freeman Leverett, Esq. Elberton, GeorgiaAttorneys for Appellees
Appeal from the United States District Court for the Middle District of Georgia, Albany Division
I N D E X(Volum e I I ) PageHEARING ON MOTION FOR PRELIMINARY IN JU N CT IO N , N o . 727 266aT e stim o n y o f M r. L a u r ie P r i t c h e t tC ro s s E x a m in a tio n ( c o n t in u e d ) ------------------------ 266aR e d ir e c t E x a m in a tio n ------------------------------- ------ 353AR e c r o s s E x a m in a t io n -—------------------ ----------------------- 3^5AT e stim o n y o f M iss E v e ly n C ou rsonD i r e c t E x a m i n a t i o n ------ -—*----------------- -------- -------- 386aT e stim o n y o f M r. A1 M o rrisD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n --------------------------------------------- 390AC r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n ---------- ------------------------------------- - 402AT e stim o n y o f M r. R , A . J a n e l l eD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n --------------------------------------------- 4o 6aC r o s s E x a m in a tio n --------- 4 l8 AT e stim o n y o f M r. R . V . HammontreeD i r e c t E x a m i n a t i o n --------------------- ------- --------- -— 422AC ro s s E x a m i n a t i o n ----------------------------------------------- 427AT e stim o n y o f M r. W. E . S w e e tin gD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n ---------------------- 435AC r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n ---------------------- ------------------ 43<oAR e d ir e c t E x a m i n a t i o n ------------------------------------------ 445AT e stim o n y o f C a p t . M e lv in R . C le g gD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n ------------------------------------------ 447AC ro ss E x a m i n a t i o n ------------ 450AR e d ir e c t E x a m in a tio n --------------------•-------------------- 4p8AT e stim o n y o f M r. D a v id R . O 'S c o t tD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n ----------- 460AC ro s s E x a m i n a t i o n -------------- -— -------------------------- - 473A
(Volum e I I - c o n tin u e d ) PageT e stim o n y o f M r. M. C , L o r igD i r e c t E x a m in a tio n --------------------------------------------- 507AC r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n ------------------------------- ---------------- 510AT e stim o n y o f T ro o p e r C la u d e H i l lD i r e c t E x a m i n a t i o n ------ -—----------------------------------- 510AC r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n ----------- 515AR e d ir e c t E x a m i n a t i o n ------------------ ------------------------ 824aT e stim o n y o f M r. E . H . H e id t , J r .D i r e c t E x a m i n a t i o n --------------------------------------- ------ 524aC r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n ---------------------------------- 526aR e d ir e c t E x a m in a tio n ----------------------------------------- 528a
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 266A
9 :3 0 A . M ., AUGUST 1 , 1962; HEARING RESUMED:
PRITCHETT - GROSS
BY MR. HOLLOWELL:Q Now, C h i e f , I b e l i e v e when we c e a s e d on y e s t e r day o r a d jo u r n e d , we w ere d i s c u s s i n g some a s p e c t s o f p i c k e t i n g : I a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t you had th e o c c a s io n t o a r r e s t D r . ¥ . G . A n d e rs o n , Em anuel J a c k s o n , S l a t e r K in g and one o t h e r by th e name o f H a r r i s , d u r in g th e month o f Ju n e o r J u l y , ’ 6 2 , w h ile i n th e p r o c e s s o f p i c k e t i n g ?
I b e l i e v e , i f I m ig h t ch a n g e t h a t d a t e , a b o u t t h e 1 0 th o f M a rch . T h a t 's A n d e rso n , J a c k s o n , E l i j a h H a r r is and S l a t e r K in g ? S i r ?A I h e ard y o u r q u e s t io n . I 'm s o r t o f t h in k in g now, i f y o u 'l l^ g iv e me a l i t t l e tim e on i t . . . 1 e i t h e r a r r e s t e d them o r th e y w ere a r r e s t e d by members o f my D e p a rtm e n t.Q Do you r e c o l l e c t what th e y w ere a r r e s t e d f o r ?A I f my memory s e r v e s me r i g h t , I t h in k i t wasf o r f a i l u r e to obey an o f f i c e r .Q, And d i s o r d e r l y c o n d u c t , i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ?A I ' d h ave to be r e f r e s h e d w ith so m e th in g t h e r e .I know i t was f o r e i t h e r f a i l u r e to obey an o f f i c e r o r d i s o r d e r l y c o n d u c t by f a i l i n g to obey an o f f i c e r .Q L e t me show you t h i s r e c o r d o r t r a n s c r i p t o f p r o c e e d in g s , C i t y o f A lb a n y v e r s u s ¥ . G . A n d erson :
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 267A
A L e t me lo o k a t t h i s f r o n t , i f you d o n 't m in d .I d o n 't b e l i e v e I a r r e s t e d th e s e men. I b e l i e v e th e y were a r r e s t e d by A s s i s t a n t C h ie f Su m m erford . I was in c o u r t th e r e t h a t m o rn in g f o r th e c o u r t to s t a r t and announced t h a t t h e C i t y A t to r n e y was in a B a n k ru p tc y C o u rt and c o u l d n 't be t h e r e and w e'd h a v e to h ave a d e la y o f c o u r t u n t i l he g o t t h e r e .Q Now, th e q u e s t io n i s , w it h what w ere th e y c h a rg e d ?A F a i l i n g t o obey an o f f i c e r and d i s o r d e r ly c o n d u c t .Q, D id you s t a y t h e r e th r o u g h o u t th e p r o c e e d in g s ?A I d o n 't t h i n k I s ta y e d t h e r e i n i t s e n t i r e t y .I t h in k I was in and o u t o f th e p r o c e e d in g s ,Q D id you h ave th e o c c a s io n t o s e e D e fe n d a n ts - s t r i k e t h a t - T e l l me i f you r e c o g n iz e th e p e r s o n s shown i n t h a t p h o to g r a p h , w h ich is : D -1 7 ?A T h a t 's D r . W, G . A ndersonQ, D r . W. G . A n d erso n ?A Y e s .Q What i s he d o in g ?A He a p p e a rs t o be h o ld in g up a s ig n w h ichs a y s , "W a lk , l i v e and spend in d i g n i t y " .Q Now, l e t me show you D -19 and s e e i f you r e c o g n iz e t h a t p e rso n ?
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 268A
A T h a t 's th e A s s i s t a n t C h i e f , one o f t h e p a t r o l men o f my o f f i c e , o f my d e p a r tm e n t, and from th e s id e v iew th e r e i t lo o k s s i m i l a r to S l a t e r K in g b u t I c o u l d n 't t e s t i f y I t was him b u t i t ' s s i m i l a r to h im .Q And D -1 8 , do you r e c o g n iz e anybody t h e r e and th e l o c a t i o n ?A Y e s , I r e c o g n iz e Bo Ja c k s o n and I t h i n k t h i s b o y 's name i s H a r r i s , th e paddy-w agon and one o f th e o f f i c e r s o f my D e p a rtm e n t.Q Now, you m en tio n e d A s s i s t a n t C h i e f Su m m erford ,was i t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Would you I n d i c a t e w h e th e r o r n o t he I s shown i n D -19 w it h S l a t e r K in g t h e r e ?A He i s shown in t h i s D-19 w it h someone who I s a y r e s e m b le s S l a t e r K in g and I presum e I t i s h im . I d o n 't deny i t ' s him and o f f i c e r o f my d e p a r tm e n t, J o e G o rd o n .Q, By lo o k in g a t 17 and 1 9 , w ould you be a b le to t e s t i f y t h a t t h a t was o r th o s e - s t r i k e t h a t p le a s e - T h at th o s e p a r t i c u l a r p h o to g r a p h s , D -17 and D -1 9 , a re a p h o to g r a p h ic r e p r e s e n t a t io n o f w hat th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s were as o f t h e tim e o f th e r e s p e c t i v e a r r e s t s o f S l a t e r K in g and D r . W. G . A nderson on t h a t o c c a s io n ?A A t t o r n e y , to th e b e s t o f my k n o w le d g e , I w a s n 't a t th e s c e n e , and th e o n ly t h i n g I h a v e h e r e to go by a r e
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 269A
t h e s e p i c t u r e s and I c a n ' t come to any c o n c lu s io n from t h e s e p i c t u r e s h e r e a b o u t t h e s u r r o u n d in g s o r what th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w ere in t h i s c a s e .Q, You do know th e y w ere a r r e s t e d ?A I do know t h a t .Q, Do you know - D id you b r in g w it h y o u th e p h o to g r a p h s t h a t w ere su b p o en aed ?A I b ro u g h t th e p h o to g ra p h s h e r e , t h e o n ly p h o to g ra p h s t h a t we h a v e p e r t a i n i n g to th e p r o t e s t s .Q Do you h ave any p e r t a i n i n g t o th e p i c k e t i n g ?A N o, I d o n ' t . (H an d in g p h o to g r a p h s to c o u n s e l f o r D e fe n d a n ts ) . . . On th o s e t h in g s now, I ' d l i k e f o r them to be k e p t in t h e same o r d e r .Q I show you D -20 and a sk you do you r e c o g n iz e t h a t l o c a t i o n and any o f th e p e r s o n n e l who a r e shown t h e r e ? A Y e s , I t h i n k t h i s i s a t th e S a l v a t i o n Army o r somewhere In th e v i c i n i t y o f Second o r T h ird A venue; and I r e c o g n iz e S l a t e r K in g and I b e l i e v e t h i s I s D r . A n d e rso n , Bo Ja c k s o n and H a r r i s ; and th e o t h e r s I d o n 't —I know t h e y 'r e p r is o n e r s o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y on a d e t a i l .Q T h e y 'r e w hat?A P r is o n e r s o f th e C i t y > o f A lb a n y on a work d e t a i l .Q Do you know how th e y come to be p r is o n e r s o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y on a work d e t a i l ?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 270A
A They w ere a r r e s t e d , c o n v ic t e d and s e n te n c e d to t h e w ork d e t a i l .Q P u rs u a n t to th o s e c h a r g e s t h a t we j u s t a d d re ss e d o u r s e lv e s t o a moment a g o , f a i l i n g to obey th e command o f an o f f i c e r and d i s o r d e r ly c o n d u c t?A I w ould assume t h a t i s . They h ave been a r r e s t e d on a number o f o c c a s i o n s .Q I mean on t h i s o c c a s io n ?A To th e b e s t o f my k n o w le d g e .THE CLERK: D -21 i s 13 p h o to g r a p h s in ane n v e lo p e .
Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, C h i e f , you r e c o g n iz et h a t t h i s f o l d e r c o n t a in s some 13 p h o to g r a p h s , which w ere b ro u g h t o v e r by you?A I d o n ! t know how many i s in t h e r e b u t I hope t h e y ' r e a l l t h e r e .Q. W a l l , w e ' l l co u n t them as we go a lo n g , b u t th e y w ere p ro d u ced by you a t o u r in s t a n c e ?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q, T h e se a re p h o to g ra p h s o f th e P o l i c e D ep a rtm en t?A They a re p h o to g ra p h s t h a t w ere made by th e P o l i c e D ep artm en t b u t I c a n ' t s e e them t h e r e . I f y o u ' l l l e t me lo o k a t th e m . (P h o to g ra p h s handed t o w it n e s s ) . . .Y e s , t h e s e w ere made and h ave th e d a t e s on a l l o f th em .Q, Now, w ould you i n d i c a t e what t h i s r e p r e s e n t son th e c o v e r h e r e ?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 271A
A D ecem ber 1 2 , 16l , 200 b lo c k o f P in e , V i o l a t i o n o f C h a p te r 1 4 , S e c t io n J , v i o l a t i o n o f C h a p te r 2 4 , S e c t io n
36 . I t h in k t h a t ' s th e —Q, Now, i s t h a t th e p a r t i c u l a r i n c i d e n t o r tim e t h a t we d is c u s s e d y e s t e r d a y , w here you s a id t h a t th e p e rs o n s who v;ere on th e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s tr a t io n w alked around t h e b lo c k s o f B o a r d , J a c k s o n , P in e and W a s h in g to n , and w ere f i n a l l y d i r e c t e d i n t o th e c h u te by th e C i t y H a l l? A T h a t 's c o r r e c t , and c h a rg e d w ith t h a t s e c t i o n . Q Now, w ould you lo o k a t t h e s e p h o to g r a p h s and show me how many p e o p le you can co u n t on any one p h o to g ra p h o t h e r th a n th o s e i n t h e l i n e o f m arch?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I t h i n k th e p i c t u r e s th e m s e lv e s s p e a k f o r th e m s e lv e s .THE COURTi I t h in k s o .
Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I w i l l a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t you s e e - I w ant to f in d o u t w hat he s e e s - as many a s 15 a d d i t i o n a l p e o p le , o t h e r th a n th o s e i n th e l i n e o f m arch and y o u r p e r s o n n e l In any one p h o to g ra p h ?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , It h in k t h i s w it n e s s can s e e what e v ery b o d y e l s e can s e e and I t h in k a g a in t h a t th e p i c t u r e s s p e a k f o r t h e m s e lv e s . 'MR. HOLLOWELL: I would su b m it t h a t —THE COURT: Do you in te n d t o In t r o d u c eth o s e p i c t u r e s in t o e v id e n c e ?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 272A
MR. HOLLOWELL: Me in te n d to in t r o d u c e them i n t o e v id e n c e , y e s .THE COURT: W e l l , I d o n 't s e e th e p o in ti n h a v in g him c o u n t p e o p le i n p i c t u r e s and su ch as t h a t , i f y o u 'r e g o in g to in t r o d u c e them in e v id e n c e .They w i l l be t h e r e f o r me t o lo o k a t .MR*, HOLLOWELL: V e ry w e l l ; we have no o b j e c t i o n .THE CLERK: 12 p h o to g ra p h s i s D -2 2 .
Q M r. H o l lo w e l l ; Now, C h i e f , I show you D -22 and as you to i n d i c a t e w h e th e r o r n o t a l l o f s a id p h o to g ra p h s a r e p o l i c e p h o to g r a p h s , P o l i c e D ep artm en t p h o to g r a p h s , and w ere b ro u g h t to t h i s C o u r t by you a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f th e D e fe n d a n ts ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Can you t e l l w h e th e r th o s e p h o to g r a p h s were ta k e n b e f o r e , d u r in g o r a f t e r th e a r r e s t s ?A They were t a k e n , d u r in g , b e fo r e and a f t e r .Q Show me one w here i t was ta k e n b e fo r e th e a r r e s t s ?A (H an d in g p h o to g ra p h s to c o u n s e l) . . . T h is one was d u r in g th e a r r e s t s , d u r in g th e a r r e s t s , b e fo r e th e a r r e s t s , d u r in g th e a r r e s t s , d u r in g th e a r r e s t s . I 'm n o t p o s i t i v e b u t I t h in k t h a t ' s b e fo r e t h e a r r e s t s , and t h i s one i s d u r in g th e a r r e s t s .MR. HOLLOWELL: M r. C o w a rt, I w onder i f f o r o u r p u rp o se s we may make t h e s e — c o u ld we make an e x h i b i t f o r t h i s g ro u p ; we c o u ld make e a ch o f th o s e
H e a r in g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 273A
2 2 -1 , a l l o f t h o s e , and t h e s e 2 2 -2 o r A , B , C; t h a t w i l l be f i n e .Q Now, as I u n d e rs ta n d y o u r t e s t im o n y , 2 2 -ath r o u g h (g ) a r e th o s e w h ich you s a y w ere ta k e n p r i o r to th e a r r e s t s ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q, And 2 2 -h th r o u g h (L ) w ere t h o s e ta k e n a f t e ry o u r o f f i c e r s had d ir e c t e d t h e l i n e o f w a lk in g i n t o th e c h u te to t h e r i g h t o f t h e p o l i c e s t a t i o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?THE COURT; I 'm n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d th eword " c h u t e " . I h a v e n 't h e a rd any te s t im o n y ab ou t any " c h u t e " . What i s i t you a re r e f e r r i n g to when you say " c h u t e " ?MR. H0LB0WELL: When we s a y " c h u t e " , s i r , we mean th e p a s s a g e w a y , th e s m a ll a lle y w a y t h a t i s im m e d ia te ly to th e r i g h t o f t h e p o l i c e s t a t i o n g o in g i n from P in e S t r e e t .THE COURT: An a lle y w a y ?MR. HOLEDWELL: Any a l le y w a y .A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A Y esQ (h ) th r o u g h (L ) a re ta k e n a f t e r th e l i n e o f m arch has been d i r e c t e d i n t o th e a lle y w a y t h a t i s immed i a t e l y t o th e r i g h t o f t h e p o l i c e s t a t i o n on P in e ?A T h a t 's a f t e r th e y had been p la c e d u n d e r a r r e s t .Q A f t e r th e y had been p la c e d u n d e r a r r e s t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 27̂ A
MR, RAWLS; I f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , I movet h a t th e word " c h u t e " h e r e t o f o r e u sed be s t r i c k e n from th e r e c o r d .THE COURT; Y e s I s u s t a i n t h a t . I wasp u z z le d a b o u t th e u se o f i t b e c a u s e no w it n e s s has used th e word " c h u t e " t h a t I r e c a l l and s i n c e i t i s an a l le y w a y , su p p ose we u s e t h a t w ord .MR. HOLLOWELL; W e l l , when he s a y s t h a t i t be s t r i c k e n , I w ould s u g g e s t t h a t In o r d e r f o r th e r e c o r d to be c o m p le t e , t h a t i t w ould s a y t h a t w h erev e r th e word " c h u t e " a p p e a rs t h a t t h e r e f e r e n c e i s to th e a lle y w a y w h ich h a s been d e s c r ib e d .THE COURT; I t i s t o th e a lle y w a y and Is u g g e s t t h a t i f w e 'r e t a l k i n g a b o u t an a lle y w a y t h a t we c a l l I t t h a t , so t h a t t h e r e w i l l be no c o n f u s io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: Y e s s i r .THE CLERK; 22 p h o to g r a p h s i n E XH IB IT D -2 3 .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, C h i e f , I show you D -2 3 , c o n t a i n in g 22 p h o to g ra p h s and a s k you whether* o r n o t th o s e w ere th e p h o to g ra p h s o r among th e p h o to g r a p h s t h a t you b ro u g h t to th e C o u rt a t th e in s t a n c e o f t h e D e fe n d a n ts ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Do you r e c o g n iz e th e d a t e ?A D ecem ber 1 3 .Q D ecem ber 13?A Y e s .
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 275A
Q T h is was one o f th e o c c a s io n s when you I n d ic a t e d i n y o u r d i r e c t e x a m in a tio n t h a t th e r e w ere c e r t a i n N e g ro e s who k n e l t and p ra y e d o u t s id e o f th e C i t y H a l l?A I d o n ’ t t h in k t h e r e ' s any te s t im o n y in t h e r e w here I s a id anybody k n e l t i n f r o n t o f t h e C i t y H a l l on t h i s d a t e . T h e re was a m arch o f some s o r t , I s a id ] b u t i t was a p r a y e r s e r v i c e and t h i s i s th e f i r s t t h i n g I ’ ve s a id a b o u t i t .
Q I 'm n o t s u r e t h a t I h e a rd t h a t , C h ie f ?A I d o n ’ t t h in k I s a id a n y t h in g i n t h i s te s t im o n yh e re p r i o r to t h i s a b o u t any k n e e l - i n a t th e C i t y H a l l .I s a id a d e m o n s tr a t io n i n f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l on th e
13t h . Q I s t h i s th e d e m o n s tr a t io n to w h ich you r e f e r ?A Y e s .Q And t h i s i s when you t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e s i d e w a lk s were b lo c k e d and th e r e w ere many p e o p le c o n g r e g a te d a ro u n d , and t h a t t h e r e was much t e n s io n ?A T h ese p i c t u r e s w ere -Q S i r ?A T h ese p i c t u r e s w ere I n t h e e x a c t o i’d e r b u tt h e y 'v e been s h u f f l e d S in c e th e y h i t t h a t t a b l e b a c k t h e r e , Y o u r H o n or. THE COURT: You t a k e y o u r tim e and you g e tthem In th e o r d e r in w h ich you w ant to t e s t i f y ab outth em .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 276A
A The W itn e s s : T h is i s th e m arch on th e 1 3 thand t h i s i s i n r e f e r e n c e t o t h e k n e e l - i n by S l a t e r K in g and R e v . Boyd on th e 1 3 t h , two d i f f e r e n t o c c a s i o n s , two d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s .MR. HOLLOWELL; A l l r i g h t , mark t h a t 23- b .A The W itn e s s : I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h i s i s a l l o fthem e i t h e r , A t t o r n e y .Q You t h in k you b ro u g h t more th a n t h a t ?A I w ould t h in k s o .Q, You w ould t h in k s o j do you know, C h i e f , w h eth eryou b r o u g h t more th a n t h a t ?A I t h i n k t h e r e ’ s one b a c k t h e r e t h a t shows S l a t e r K in g and R e v . Boyd k n e e l in g and I t h i n k , i f y o u ' l l s e a r c h b a c k t h e r e , y o u ' l l f in d i t .Q Do you t h in k t h e r e w ere more i n t h i s e n v e lo p e th a n t h a t ?A I d o .Q W i l l you d e s c r ib e t h a t w h ich you t h in k was inth e r e ? A T h e r e 's a p i c t u r e t h e r e o f a grou p k n e e l in g as t h e s e a r e , S l a t e r K in g , R e v . Boyd and p i c t u r e o f R e v . Boyd s o r t o f lo o k in g up to t h e sk y and S l a t e r K in g b e s id e h im . Q P e r t a in in g to t h e same d a t e ?A W earin g a r a i n c o a t , w h ite s l i c k e r r a i n c o a t , S l a t e r K in g .Q P e r t a in in g to t h e same d a t e ?A The same d a t e .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 277A
Q Now 2 3 (a ) th r o u g h 23 ( p ) , you s a y show a m arch a s you d e s c r ib e i t on th e 1 3 th o f D ecem b er, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A Y e s , I t h in k t h a t ' s t h e d a t e on th e b a c k on t h e s e , ta k e n by d e t e c t i v e s i n my D e p a rtm e n t.Q, And 2 3 (a ) th r o u g h (v ) you s a y p e r t a i n t o k n e e lin g and p r a y in g i n f r o n t o f t h e C i t y H a l l ?A T h a t 1s c o r r e c t .Q I t c o u l d n 't be t h a t t h a t was i n a n o th e r g r o u p , c o u ld i t , C h ie f ?A Not t o my k n o w le d g e .Q. Not to y o u r k n o w led ge?A B e ca u se e v e r y t h in g t h a t I h ave was b ro u g h t h e r e .Q Now, c o u ld you lo o k a t 2 3 (p ) - s t r i k e t h a t -( a ) th r o u g h (p ) and t e l l me w h e th e r t h e s e a r e t h e crow ds t h a t you d e s c r ib e d on y e s t e r d a y a s b e in g i n c i d e n t to th e d e m o n s tr a t io n on t h a t d a t e ?A Y o u r H o n or, t h e s e p i c t u r e s w ere ta k e n h e r e on t h i s d a t e to show th e -Q I 'm s o r r y , s i r , we c a n ' t h e a r you ?A T h is shows th e r o u te and t h e c lo s e n e s s t o th eb u i l d i n g s o f t h e s e m a r c h e r s , w h ich t h e d e t e c t i v e s ta k e n t o show t h a t t h e e n tr a n c e t o t h e s e b u i l d i n g s w ere im p a ire d and t h a t th e y c o u ld n o t be re a c h e d in n orm al way —MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u rt — e x c u s e me, s i r — i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , as h as been I n d ic a t e d by c o u n s e l f o r th e P l a i n t i f f s , th e p i c t u r e s a re t h e b e s t e v id e n c e o f what th e y show;
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 278A
a n d , t h e r e f o r e , we w i l l su b m it t h a t h i s s ta te m e n ts s h o u ld be s t r i c k e n b e c a u s e th e y a r e n o t r e s p o n s iv e to th e q u e s t io n a s k e d .MR. RAWLS: I f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , I su b m itt h e q u e s t io n ask e d th e C h i e f w a s, do t h e s e p i c t u r e s d e p i c t th e grou p and t h e crowd t h a t you t e s t i f i e d a b o u t; and t h e C h i e f was s im p ly e x p l a i n i n g t h a t th e y d id n o t p u r p o r t to r e p r e s e n t p i c t u r e o f th e crow ds b u t t h a t th e y show t h e i n a c c e s s a b i l i t y t o t h e e n tr a n c e t o t h e b u i l d i n g s ; and I t h in k th e q u e s t io n was r e s p o n s iv e .THE COURT: W e l l , I t h i n k i t was moreth a n r e s p o n s iv e . I t h in k t h a t M r. H o l l o w e l l ’ s c r i t i c i s m o f t h e an sw er I s w e ll fo u n d e d , I t h in k t h a t th e w it n e s s h a s n o t y e t resp o n d ed r e a l l y t o t h e q u e s t io n . The q u e s t io n , d o es th e p i c t u r e r e p r e s e n t th e crow ds r e f e r r e d t o by you in y o u r p r e v io u s t e s t i mony c o n c e r n in g t h i s i n c i d e n t . Now, so th e w it n e s s w i l l u n d e rs ta n d what i s r e q u ir e d o f h im , he I s r e q u ir e d t o answ er w h e th e r t h e p i c t u r e d o es o r d o es n o t r e p r e s e n t th e crow ds r e f e r r e d t o ; and t h e n ,M r. W itn e s s , you can e x p l a i n , i f you w is h , what i s i n th e p i c t u r e ; t h a t i s , w hat th e p i c t u r e d o e s r e p r e s e n t , what p o r t io n o f th e crowd i t d o e s r e p r e s e n t and what p o r t io n i t d o e s n o t . B u t answ er th e q u e s t io n , w h e th e r i t d o e s o r d o e s n o t r e p r e s e n t th e cro w d .A The W itn e s s : I can answ er t h i s w it h a y e so r n o , and th e n e x p la in m y s e lf?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o , 727 279A
THE COURT: Y e s .MR, HOLLOWELL: And - e x c u s e me - I t a k e i t t h a t th e p r i o r answ er h as been s t r i c k e n ?THE COURT: Y e s , I s u s t a i n t h a t o b j e c t i o n .A The W itn e s s : The answ er i s - s t a t e y o u r q u e s t io n , a g a in ?MR, HOLLOWELL: Would you p l e a s e re a d th e q u e s t io n , M r. R e p o r te r ?THE REPORTER: "Now, c o u ld you lo o k a t 2 3 {p ) - s t r i k e t h a t - (a ) th r o u g h (p ) and t e l l me w h e th e r t h e s e a r e th e crow ds t h a t you d e s c r ib e d on y e s te r d a y a s b e in g i n c i d e n t to th e d e m o n s tr a t io n on t h a t d a t e ? "A The W itn e s s : I w ould answ er t h a t w it h a " n o " ,Y o u r H on or, and e x p la in y o u r s e l f .THE COURT: You do n o t h a v e t o e x p l a i n .I d id n o t mean by my i n s t r u c t i o n s t o you t h a t w h en ever you g iv e a y e s o r no a n sw e r, t h a t you a r e r e q u ir e d to g iv e an e x p l a n a t i o n . I s im p ly w anted you t o u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a f t e r you have answ ered th e q u e s t io n , i f you w is h t o e x p l a i n , you m ay.A The W itn e s s : I w ish t o . T h e se p i c t u r e sw ere t a k e n , n o t o f th e cro w d , a t t h i s t im e b u t t o show t h a t th e b u s in e s s e s on t h i s s t r e e t , t h a t th e n orm al e n t r a n c e s and t h a t th e e n t r a n c e s t h a t t h e p e o p le had a c c e s s t o w ere b lo c k e d and c o u ld n o t g a in e n tr a n c e as th e y c o u ld on n orm al c o n d i t i o n s . And t h i s shows - t h a t ' s w hat I ' d l i k e to s a y .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 28 OA
Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : You su b m it t h a t t h o s e p h o to - g ra p h s show t h e g e n e r a l v i c i n i t y o f P in e S t r e e t and th e co rn e r o f W a sh in g to n and th e c o r n e r o f S o u th J a c k s o n , in th e v i c i n i t y o f P in e S t r e e t , d o e s i t n o t?A T h is shows P in e and J a c k s o n . I d o n ’ t t h in k t h e r e ' s any h e re —Q I t shows up and down P in e S t r e e t , d o es i t n o t?A Y e s , i t d o e s .Q, And t h a t ' s w here th e p e r s o n s w ere a r r e s t e d on t h a t d a t e , th o s e whom you s a y c o n s t i t u t e t h e m a rch e rs?A T h a t i s c o r r e c t .Q Now, l e t ’ s lo o k a t 23 (q ) th ro u g h ( v ) a moment and a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t th o s e p h o to g r a p h s , t h e p i c t u r e s t h a t a r e d e p ic t e d t h e r e , r e p r e s e n t th e crow ds t o w h ich you a l lu d e d on y e s t e r d a y a s r e l a t e d to t h a t p a r t i c u l a r m a tte r ?A Y e s , i t d o e s .Q And t h i s shows th e a r e a in t h e g e n e r a l v i c i n i t y o f w here t h e k n e e l - I n s o r th e k n e e l e r s , I s h a l l c a l l th em , w e re; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q And i t shows th e a r e a up and down t h e s t r e e t , d o e s i t n o t?A I t d o e s .THE CLERK; D -24 i s 25 p h o to g r a p h s .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : C h ie f , t a k e th o s e p h o to g r a p h s ,t h a t a r e u n d e r D -2 4 , and t e l l me w h e th e r o r n o t t h a t i s a ls o a g rou p o f p h o to g ra p h s w h ich were b ro u g h t from th e P o l i c e D ep artm en t by you t h i s d a t e a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f th e D e fe n d a n ts ?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 281A
A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t ,Q T h ese a r e p h o to g r a p h s o f t h e P o l i c e D ep a rtm en t?A I t ’ s p h o to g r a p h s t h a t w ere ta k e n d u r in g anda f t e r t h e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s i n f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l .THE COURT: On what d a t e ?A The W itn e s s ; On th e 13th,* i t ' s th e k n e e l - i n s .THE COURT: Do th e p h o to g r a p h s h a v e d a t e son th em , on th e r e v e r s e s id e o f them ? Do a l l o f themh a v e d a t e s on them ?A The W itn e s s : A l l o f them h a v e d a t e s on them ,y e s s i r ,Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : They a r e th e p r o p e r ty o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t, a r e th e y n o t?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t ,Q And th e y c o n s t i t u t e a l l , t h a t i s a l l o f th ep h o to g ra p h s t h a t you h ave b ro u g h t h e r e t h i s m orn ing a t t h ein s t a n c e o f t h e D e fe n d a n ts , c o n s t i t u t e a l l o f t h e p h o to g ra p h s w h ich you have p e r t a i n i n g t o any o f t h e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n stra t i o n s from Decem ber t o d a t e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A A l l o f th e p h o to g ra p h s t h a t I b ro u g h t h e re t h i s m o rn in g , th e y a r e a l l h e r e i n t h i s b u i l d i n g .Q T h at i s n ’ t what you w ere a s k e d , C h ie f ?A You ask e d me i f t h i s r e p r e s e n te d a l l o f th ep h o to s t h a t w ere ta k e n in D ecem ber?Q, No s i r , i f i t p l e a s e , M r. R e p o r t e r , w ould youre a d t h e q u e s t io n , s i r ?
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 282A
THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : And th e y c o n s t i t u t e , t h a t i s a l l o f th e p h o to g ra p h s t h a t you h a v e b ro u g h t h e r e t h i s m orn ing a t t h e in s t a n c e o f t h e D e fe n d a n t s , c o n s t i t u t e a l l o f th e p h o to g r a p h s w h ich you h ave p e r t a i n i n g to any o f th e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s tr a t io n s from D ecem ber to d a t e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : And a l l o f them t h a t youb ro u g h t o v e r t h i s m orn ing h a v e been tu r n e d o v e r to th e D e fe n d a n t s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q Now, c o u ld you lo o k a t t h o s e p h o to g r a p h s and r e c o l l e c t what th e y r e p r e s e n t , g e n e r a l l y ?A They r e p r e s e n t and show a g rou p o f N eg ro es k n e e l in g and p r a y in g in f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l . They r e p r e s e n t th e crow ds and c o n g e s t io n around th e a r e a w h ich was ca u se d by t h e s e k n e e le r s and p r a y e r s , and th e crow ds w h ich su rro u n d ed th e a r e a .Q In o t h e r w o rd s , t h e s e a r e t h e p h o to s upon w h ich you b ased y o u r s ta te m e n t y e s t e r d a y t h a t t h e r e w ere l a r g e crow ds I n c id e n t t o th e d e m o n s tr a t io n s on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r d a t e and th e r e was g r e a t t e n s io n among th e p e o p le and t h in g s w ere a b o u t t o e r u p t a n d , in y o u r o p in io n , t h e r e was g r e a t t e n s i o n , and i t I s based upon th e t h in g s t h a t a r e shown in th o s e p h o to g r a p h s ; I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .THE COURT: On what d a t e ?MR. HOLLOWELL: On th e 1 3 th .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 283A
THE COURT: We’ r e t a l k i n g ab o u t D ecem ber 13?MR* HOLLOWELL: Y e s s i r .THE COURT: L e t th e r e c o r d show t h a t .THE CLERK: D -2 5 , c o n s i s t i n g o f 8 p h o to g ra p h s (a ) th r o u g h ( h ) .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : L o o k a t 2 5 (h ) - w e l l , f i r s t , l e t me a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t you b r o u g h t t h e s e e ig h t p h o to g ra p h s t h a t a r e l i s t e d as D -2 5 -( a ) th r o u g h (h ) to c o u r t and th e y a r e th e p r o p e r t y and i n d i c a t e w h eth er th e y a r e th e p r o p e r ty o f t h e P o l i c e D ep a rtm en t o f A lb a n y , G e o r g ia ?A They a r e .Q Can you t e l l me w h e th e r o r n o t 2 5 (a ) vras b e fo r e o r a f t e r th e a r r e s t s ?A I t h in k i t ’ s b e f o r e ,Q Was 2 5 (h ) b e fo r e o r a f t e r ?A B e f o r e .Q Who I s th e l a r g e p o l i c e o f f i c e r t h a t you se et h e r e in th e fo r e g r o u n d ?A T h a t ’ s me.Q Do you know what t im e you a r r iv e d a t t h a t s p o t?A N o, I d o n ’ t . I t s a y s on h e r e t h e p i c t u r e wasta k e n a t 5 :0 0 P . M, I f i t xvas ta k e n a t 5 :0 0 P . M ., I was on t h e s p o t .Q A t 5 :0 0 P , M .?A Y e s .
0 25( g ) , was t h i s b e fo r e o r a f t e r ?A T h is was b e f o r e .
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 284a
Q 25( f ) , was t h i s b e fo r e o r a f t e r ?A T h is was a f t e r ,Q Who’ s t h e l a r g e man in th e r e a r t h a t I s b r i n g i n g up t h e r e a r ?A T h a t 's S e r g e a n t , D e t e c t i v e S e r g e a n t H a ro ld J e t e r o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t,Q, 25( e ) , b e fo r e o r a f t e r th e a r r e s t s ?A B e f o r e ,Q 25( d ) ?A A f t e r .Q T h is i s a f t e r ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q, And th e same I s t r u e o f ( c ) , i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ,t h e same g e n e r a l g ro u p ?A T h a t i s c o r r e c t .Q And 2 5 ( b ) , was t h i s b e fo r e o r a f t e r th e a r r e s t s ?A T h is i s b e f o r e ,Q, And i t I s upon t h e s e p h o to g r a p h s o r th e s c e n e s as d e p ic t e d t h a t you made y o u r te s t im o n y y e s t e r d a y c o n c e r n in g t h e l a r g e crow ds and t h e t e n s io n t h a t was I n c id e n t to t h i s p a r t i c u l a r d e m o n s tr a tio n on t h i s d a t e ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , l e t ’ s move a lo n gM r. H o l l o w e l l .MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, we h a v e th r e e p h o to g ra p h s h e r e , s i r ; m ark them a l l one num ber.THE CLERK: D -26 i s 3 p h o to g r a p h s , markeda , b and c
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 285A
Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, C h i e f , t h e s e t h r e e p h o to g ra p h s i n D-26 w ere a l s o b r o u g h t by you and a r e th e p r o p e r ty o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t, a re th e y n o t?A T h at I s c o r r e c t .Q I a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t you h a v e any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h e i r h a v in g been a s o - c a l l e d " d e m o n s tr a t io n !! on F e b r u a r y l o , 162?A T h a t d a t e t h e r e d o e s n ’ t c o r r e s p o n d to t h e d a t e t h a t i s on t h e s e p i c t u r e s . T h e se p i c t u r e s w ere ta k e n on D ecem ber 1 6 , 1961 In th e 200 b lo c k o f S o u th Ja c k s o n by P r i c e L ee W e s tb ro o k , d e t e c t i v e o f t h e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t.Q T h en , y o u ’ r e s a y in g t h a t t h i s 2 -1 6 -6 2 s h o u ld be 12 - 16 - 61?A 1 2 -1 6 -6 1 .Q, Do you h a v e any o b j e c t i o n i f I ch a n g e t h a t on t h e e n v e lo p e ?A I h ave no o b j e c t i o n w h a ts o e v e r . I d o n ’ t knowwho w ro te I t on. t h e r e .Q I d o n ’ t know e i t h e r , s i r . Now, l e t me show you 26(b ) and a s k y o u , i s n ' t t h a t a p h o to g ra p h sh ow in g th e g rou p a f t e r w h ich th e y w ere d i r e c t e d i n t o th e a l l e y , w h ichup t h e s t r e e t by y o u r o f f i c e r s , up S o u th Ja c k s o n tow ard P in e , a f t e r w h ich th e y w ere d i r e c t e d i n t o th e a l l e y , w h ich I s betw een P in e and B ro a d , r u n n in g o f f S o u th Ja c k s o n ?A T h is shows t h a t j u s t s o u th o f t h e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f Broad and Ja c k s o n th e y w ere —Q Now, e x c u s e me, s i r , y o u 'r e n o t a n s w e rin g my q u e s t io n ; Would you r e p e a t th e q u e s t io n f o r me, p l e a s e , M r. R e p o r te r ?
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o. 72? 286A
THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Now* l e t me show you 26(b ) and a s k you i s n ’ t t h a t a p h o to g r a p h show ing th e grou p a f t e r th e y had been a r r e s t e d and a r e b e in g b ro u g h t up t h e s t r e e t by y o u r o f f i c e r s * up S o u th Ja c k s o n tow ard P in e * a f t e r w h ich th e y w ere d ir e c t e d i n t o t h e a l l e y w h ich i s betw een P in e and B road ru n n in g o f f o f S o u th J a c k s o n ? ”A The W itn e s s : I w ould l i k e t o answ er t h a tw it h a y e s to th e q u e s t io n and e x p la in i t . T h is d o e s show a p i c t u r e o f them b e in g in t h e m id d le o f th e s t r e e t a f t e r t h e i r a r r e s t . I t a l s o shows o f f i c e r s o f th e A lb an y P o l i c e D ep artm en t t r y i n g t o d is p e r s e th e l a r g e g a t h e r in g o f p e o p le on t h e s id e w a lk s h e r e .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : T h ose on th e s id e w a lk ?A Y e s .Q Now* a s f a r as you know* t h e s e p e o p le a r e sh o p p e rs* I s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ?A in my own h o n e s t o p in io n t h e d ay t h a t was ta k e n * t h a t ' s w hat y o u 'r e a s k in g * th e y w ere o n lo o k e r s who were t h e r e to s e e t h i s d e m o n s tr a t io n and t o be on hand d u r in g t h i s d e m o n s t r a t io n .Q W e ll* answ er my q u e s t io n * C h ie f ?A I j u s t answ ered i t .Q As f a r a s you know, th e y a r e sh o p p e rs?A As f a r as I know* th e y w ere t h e r e a s c u r i o s i t y s e e k e r s and o n lo o k e r s o f t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s . W hether th e y w ere sh o p p in g * I do n o t know. I know th e y w ere t h e r e .
H e a r in g on M otion B’o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 287A
Q S o , you r e a l l y d o n ’ t know w h e th e r o r n o t th e y a r e s h o p p e rs?A I d i d n ' t s e e them s h o p p in g , n o .Q The p e o p le in t h e s t r e e t r e p r e s e n t th o s e whoa r e b e in g ta k e n t o j a i l , w h erea s t h o s e on t h e s id e w a lk a re t h e ones whom you s a y y o u r p o l i c e o f f i c e r s w ere d is p e r s i n g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h at i s c o r r e c t .Q. Now, 2 6 (a ) r e p r e s e n t s some o f y o u r o f f i c e r si n th e s t r e e t s t i l l d i r e c t i n g t h e g rou p t h a t was b e in g ta k e n on up Ja c k s o n to t h e j a i l ?AQ T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .And shows some o n lo o k e r s on th e s id e w a lk ?A I t shows l a r g e r g a t h e r e r s , l a r g e g a t h e r in g so f o n lo o k e r s h e re w h ich my men w ere t r y i n g t h e i r b e s t to c o n t r o l and d i s p e r s e .Q, Can you show me one o f y o u r o f f i c e r s in th e p r o c e s s o f - I 'm s o r r y - i n t h e p r o c e s s o f d is p e r s i n g anybody on th e s id e w a lk ; show me one o f t h e o f f i c e r s ?A (W itn e s s p o in t i n g on p i c t u r e ) One - tw o . . . .Q T h a t 's up a t th e c o r n e r , I mean in t h a t b lo c k ?A You d i d n ' t a s k me a b o u t t h e r e . You s a idd i s p e r s i n g them and I showed y o u .THE COURT: I s i t In th e p i c t u r e ? The W itn e s s : Y es s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I m ean, i n t h a t w h o le b l o c k ,o t h e r th a n a t t h e c o m e r ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 283A
A T h is shows two o f f i c e r s com ing s o u th to w ard s th e grou p a t te m p tin g to move th em .Q, Where a r e th o s e two o f f i c e r s ? I mean from p o in t o f l o c a t i o n ?A They a r e com ing down, r i g h t a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n , com ing down a s i t p l a i n l y shows r i g h t h e r e In t h i s p i c t u r e .Q They a r e a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f w hat?A Ja c k s o n and B road a t S t e m 's R e s ta u r a n t h e a d in g s o u t h , as th e p i c t u r e show s, a s t h e p i c t u r e so s t a t e s .Q Who a r e th o s e o f f i c e r s ?A I c a n n o t I d e n t i f y them o n ly a s o f f i c e r s o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t.Q So t h a t , th e y a r e a t th e c o r n e r , a re th e y In th e s t r e e t ?A I c a n ' t t e s t i f y a s to w h e th e r t h e y 'r e in th e s t r e e t o r n o t . The o n ly t h in g I know th e y a r e in th e crowd t r y i n g t o do t h e i r d u t y .Q. W e l l , you d o n 't know what th e y w ere t r y i n g to do now, do y o u , C h ie f ?A I was t h e r e .Q. I mean you d o n 't know, you d i d n ' t s e e them ; you d i d n ' t h e a r them sa y a n y th in g ?A I was t h e r e a t t h e tim e when th e y w ere d is p e r s e d -Q E x cu s e me - C h i e f —A I h e a rd them d is p e r s i n g th e cro w d .Q. E x cu s e me, C h ie f ?A They w ere t h e r e t o keep o r d e r , t o keep th e p e o p lem oving a s t h a t p i c t u r e so s t a t e s .
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 28 9A
Q Show me ~ can you t e l l me one t h i n g t h a t you s a id t o t h i s o f f i c e r t h a t you d o n 't know who i t i s ?A My o f f i c e r s w ere u n d e r d i r e c t i o n s d u r in g t h i s t h in g to keep a l l th e p e o p le m o v in g , to d is p e r s e a l l crow ds and t h a t so s t a t e s , t h a t th e y a r e in th e crowd t r y i n g to do t h e i r b e s t to do i t .Q Now, w i l l you answ er t h e q u e s t io n ?MR. HOLLOWELL; Would you r e p e a t th e q u e s t io n , M r. O f f i c e r ?THE COURT*. Su p p ose you r e p e a t I t , M r.H o l l o w e l l .MR. HOLLOWELL: I 'm n o t s u r e t h a t I know i t a c c u r a t e l y , s i r , and I want t o be s u r e t h a t I do n o t m is q u o te i t .THE REPORTER; " Q u e s t io n : Can you t e l l me one t h i n g t h a t you s a id t o t h i s o f f i c e r t h a t you d o n 't knew who i t I s ? "A The W itn e s s : My commands w ere g iv e n to a l lt h e o f f i c e r s , Y o u r H o n or, as t o what t h e i r d u t i e s was and as t o how t o p e rfo rm t h e i r d u t i e s ; and th e y w ere t h e r e d o in g t h e i r b e s t to do t h i s . I d id n o t s p e a k to e a ch one I n d i v i d u a l l y b u t I sp oke t o them c o l l e c t i v e l y in t h e group t h a t w ere o u t t h e r e . They a l l knew w hat t h e i r d u ty w a s.Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : Do you s e e y o u r s e l f i n t h i s p h o to g ra p h ?A Not a t t h e p r e s e n t b u t I was t h e r e .Q You mean you w ere somextfhere on Ja c k s o n S t r e e t ?
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 290A
A Somewhere r i g h t in t h a t v i c i n i t y , t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q How do you know t h a t you w ere somewhere in t h i s v i c i n i t y , w here in t h a t v i c i n i t y ?A As t h i s m arch come up t h e s t r e e t , I was i n t h e f r o n t o f i t .Q, T h e r e f o r e , you a r e beyond t h e p o in t w h ich i s shown in h e r e ?A N o, I t h i n k I was b e h in d t h e p o in t b e c a u s e i t shows th e d e t e c t i v e s ' c a r r i d i n g a lo n g th e f r o n t o f th e t h i n g h e r e and I t d i d n ' t g e t a l l o f i t . A l l t h i s p i c t u r e shows and was ta k e n f o r t h e b e n e f i t to show was th e cro w d s , t h e g r e a t m i l l i n g , t h e g r e a t cro w d , and th e o f f i c e r s t r y i n g t o d is p e r s e t h e s e cro w d s .Q Noxtf, I w ant you to p o in t o u t f o r me now, i f you w i l l - f i r s t , l e t me a s k you t h i s ; How much d i s t a n c e b lo c k - w is e i s shox«i i n t h i s p h o to g ra p h 2 6 ( a ) ?A I t shows ab o u t h a l f o f th e b lo c k t h e r e a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n , s o u th o f th e I n t e r s e c t i o n o f Ja c k s o n and B ro a d ; I t shows th e w h o le b lo c k from Ja c k s o n and Broad to th e New A lb an y H o t e l ; i t shows th e c o n g e s t io n and th e c o n f u s io n .Q W e l l , I asked you t h e b lo c k a g e ?A You ask e d me w hat I t r e p r e s e n t e d .Q N o, I ask e d you how much a r e a ?A A p p r o x im a te ly a b lo c k and a h a l f , two b lo c k sa t th e m ost
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 291A
Q And th e o n ly o f f i c e r s t h a t you ca n p o in t out a r e th e o f f i c e r s in t h e s t r e e t h e re and t h e o f f i c e r s a t th e o t h e r i n t e r s e c t i o n ?A T h e re a r e o t h e r o f f i c e r s in th e crowd th e r e I p o in te d o u t to y o u .Q, I mean a t t h e i n t e r s e c t i o n ?A I d o n 't know w h e th e r t h e y 'r e a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o r n o t .Q Do you r e c o g n iz e th e r e u n d e r t h a t S te m 's s ig n t h a t S te m 's i s r i g h t t h e r e a t th e c o m e r ?A I t ' s i n t h e v i c i n i t y o f t h e I n t e r s e c t i o n , t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q, And you s e e no o t h e r , on t h e s id e w a lk o r any p la c e e l s e o t h e r th an i n th e s t r e e t .A N o , n o t a t th e p r e s e n t I c a n ' t .Q A l l r i g h t , now l e t me show you 2 6 (c ) anda s k you i s n ' t t h a t a p i c t u r e o f t h e same g e n e r a l a r e a e x c e p t lo o k in g from S te m 's t o th e s o u th ?A T h is i s i n th e same v i c i n i t y lo o k in g s o u t h .Q, A l l r i g h t , now t h e s e a re t h e p h o to g ra p h s ta k e n a t 5 :1 5 a f t e r t h e a r r e s t s on t h e l 6th o f D ecem b er, 1961?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q And r e p r e s e n t th e b a s is f o r y o u r s ta te m e n t on y e s t e r d a y t o th e e f f e c t t h a t t h e r e w ere l a r g e crow ds and t h a t t h e r e was much t e n s io n among th e p e o p le ?A T h a t i s c o r r e c t .Q You d i d n ' t se e anybody who was g l a r i n g a tsomebody s t a n d in g n e x t to h im , d id you ? D id you?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 292A
A N o , I d i d n ' t .Q You d i d n ’ t s e e anybody a b o u t to f i g h t , d id y o u , i n th o s e p h o to g r a p h s ?A I w ould l i k e t o answ er t h i s and e x p la in m y s e lf , Y o u r H o n or. THE COURT: Y e s .A The W itn e s s : I d id n o t b e c a u s e I was busya t th e f r o n t o f t h i s l i n e . I was b u sy g i v i n g o r d e r s to my p o l i c e d e p a r tm e n t, t h e S h e r i f f ’ s o f f i c e r s , th e County p o l i c e , th e S t a t e P a t r o l , i n o r d e r to f a c i l i t a t e th e s a f e t y o f th e p e o p le , to t r y to d is p e r s e th e l a r g e crow ds t h a t t h e s e p i c t u r e s h e r e r e p r e s e n t ; and to keep th e p e a c e and t h e q u ie t In t h i s C i t y u n d e r t h i s t e n s io n w h ich was ca u se d by t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s .Q I t h in k - e x c u s e me - were you f i n i s h e d ?A Y e s , I ’ m th r o u g h .Q In a l l o f t h e s e p h o to g ra p h s t h a t you have b ro u g h t h e r e , d id you s e e anybody s p t t i n g on an o f f i c e r ?Y es o r n o , C h ie f?A N o, and I s t i l l r e q u e s t th e r i g h t t o sa y t h a t I w asn ’ t everyw h ere a t o n c e . I w asn ’ t everyw h ere in th e v i c i n i t y . My o f f i c e r s w ere i n th e crow ds t h a t were m i l l i n g w ith th e p e o p le ; th e y w ere a s k in g th e p e o p le to g o . Y o u ' l l have to a s k th e o f f i c e r s who w ere s p a t u p o n .MR, HOLLOWELL: Now, i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I w ould a s k t h a t a l l o f t h a t be s t r i c k e n a s n o t r e s p o n s iv e . I asked him d id he s e e anybody i n a l l o f th o s e p h o to g ra p h s t h a t he h a s b r o u g h t t h a t showed anyone s p i t t i n g upon an o f f i c e r , and t h e o t h e r was n o t r e s p o n s iv e .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 293A
THE COURT: W e l l , I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o nt o a l l o f t h e a n sw e r, e x c e p t t h e s ta te m e n t t h a t he d id n o t s e e , t h a t he In t h e s e p i c t u r e s d id n o t se e s u c h . B u t I ad m it t h a t p o r t io n o f h i s answ er w h ich e x p la in s t h a t he was in th e p r o c e s s o f d i r e c t i n g a l l o f th e o f f i c e r s and t h a t th e te s t im o n y a b o u t s p i t t i n g s h o u ld come from th e o f f i c e r s who can t e s t i f y f o r them s e l v e s .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : D id you s e e In a l l o f t h e s e p h o to g ra p h s - l e t me a s k ~ s t r i k e t h a t and l e t me a s k y o u :D id you t r y to - i n th e t a k in g o f t h e p h o to g ra p h s you g a v e some i n s t r u c t i o n s t o th e p h o to g r a p h e r s o r y o u r d e p a r tm e n ta l head who w ould c q n t r o l t h e t a k in g o f th e p i c t u r e s , d i d n ' t you?A I t o l d him I w anted as many p i c t u r e s a s p o s s i b l e o f th e cro w d s, o f a n y t h in g t h a t he c o u ld g e t ; and t h a t ' s w hat he t r i e d to g e t .Q Now, h a v e you a t any tim e seen a p h o to g ra p h among a l l o f th o s e t h a t h ave been ta k e n and w ere b ro u g h t h e r e , show in g any i n d i v i d u a l th r o w in g a r o c k a t a p o l i c e o f f i c e r o r a t a p o l i c e c a r ?A Not i n t h e s e p h o to g ra p h s t h a t I b ro u g h t h e re t o d a y , n o .Q And t h e s e a r e a l l t h a t you h a v e ?A They a r e a l l t h a t w ere ta k e n by t h e p o l i c ed e p a r tm e n t, t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q And you asked them t o t a k e a l l t h a t th e y c o u ld g e t , o f e v e r y t h in g t h a t th e y c o u ld g e t , by y o u r te s t im o n y a moment ago?
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 294A
A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h i s and e x p la in m y s e lf , Y o u r H o n o r, THE COURT: W e l l , l e t me g e t m y s e lf s t r a i g h ton t h a t , I t r i e d to f o l lo w t h e s e d a t e s , I t would be v e r y h e l p f u l t o me when t h e s e q u e s t io n s a r e asked i f th e y c o u ld be r e l a t e d to s p e c i f i c d a t e s . My im p r e s s io n I s t h a t a l l o f t h e s e p i c t u r e s t h a t h a v e been b r o u g h t h e r e r e l a t e to Decem ber 16 o r 1 3 th , 1 4 th and l 6 t h o f D ecem ber; Am I c o r r e c t In t h a t ?MR, HOLLOWELL: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , b u t I a l s o askedTHE COURT: W e l l , I was j u s t t r y i n g t o g e tm y s e lf s t r a ig h t e n e d o u t .MR. HOLLOWELL: E x cu se me.THE COURT: And none o f t h e s e p i c t u r e sr e l a t e t o any o t h e r d a t e s , s u c h a s J u l y , 1962?Am I c o r r e c t In t h a t ?A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t , Y o u r H onor; andt h a t ' s why I w ould l i k e to e x p l a i n .THE COURT: W e ll now, you answ er h i s q u e s t io nand th e n you can e x p la in i t . I was j u s t t r y i n g to g e t m y s e lf s t r a i g h t , on t h a t . S o , t h e q u e s t io n now was - Do you r e c a l l th e q u e s t io n , C h ie f ?A The W itn e s s : I t h in k he asked me w ere t h e s e -THE COURT: W hether any o f t h e s e p i c t u r e sshow anybody th ro w in g a ro ck a t a p o lic e m a n , I b e l i e v e . A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t . T h esep i c t u r e s - I sa y n o , and I e x p la in m y s e lf , t h a t none o f t h e s e p i c t u r e s show i t . T h e re a r e D ecem ber;
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 295A
and n o t h in g h e r e in t h i s m o n th . T h e se w ere a l l l a s t — o r r a t h e r l a s t m on th . T h ese a r e a l l Decem ber, 1961 , a l l o f t h e s e p i c t u r e s ; t h a t ' s when th e y w ere t a k e n .q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : And you h a v e no o t h e r p i c t u r e s ?A O f D ecem ber?Q O f any tim e from D ecem ber t o J u l y i n v o lv i n g any o f t h i s ?A Not ta k e n by th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t, n o , q Do you h ave any p i c t u r e s u n d e r y o u r c u s to d y and c o n t r o l , r e g a r d le s s o f whom th e y w ere ta k e n b y , t h a t show any o f t h e s e s o - c a l l e d " d e m o n s tr a t io n s ” o r a c t i v i t i e s ?A In my c u s to d y ?Q, in th e c u s to d y and c o n t r o l o f th e D ep a rtm en t?A Not u n d e r m ine o r th e c u s to d y o f th e D e p a rtm e n t,n o , Q, Do you know o f any o t h e r p h o to g ra p h s w h ich w ere ta k e n by anyone w h ich may n o t h ave been u n d e r y o u r c u s to d y and c o n t r o l?A Y e s , I t h in k th e y a r e u n d e r t h e c u s to d y h e r e .Q W ho's t h a t , M r. L e v e r e t t ?A I t h in k t h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .MR, HOLLOWELL: I s t h a t s o ? We w ould l i k e t o s e e th o s e p h o to g r a p h s , i f we m ig h t .MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , th e o n ly p h o to g ra p h I have i s a f i l m . I d o n ’ t h a v e any p h o to g r a p h s .A The W itn e s s : F i lm , t h a t ’ s th e o n ly t h i n g wehave
H e a r in g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 2$6a
MR. HOLLOWELL; What d o e s t h a t c o v e r ?MR. LEVERETT: T h is I s J u l y .MR. HOLLOWELL; A l l o f J u l y .MR. LEVERETT: I do n o t know. The subp oenad id n o t r e f e r to f i l m s , may i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ; i t r e f e r r e d o n ly to p i c t u r e s .Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, C h i e f , from D ecem ber 10 up u n t i l t h e f i r s t o f J u l y , d id you make any a r r e s t s o f any p e rs o n s in t h e v i c i n i t y o f any o f th e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n stra t i o n s , o t h e r th a n th o s e who w ere in t h e l i n e ?A Y e s , we h a v e .Q, Would you i n d i c a t e how many?A More th a n p r o b a b ly 5 o r 6 .Q 5 o r 6; now, when was t h i s ?A Some were a r r e s t e d in D ecem b er.Q How many?A I t h in k th e r e was 3 a r r e s t e d i n D ecem b er.Q Now, w here w ere th e y a r r e s t e d ?A They w ere d ru n k w h ite p e o p le a r r e s t e d i n f r o n to f t h e - w h ile th e d e m o n s tr a t io n s w ere g o in g o n , i n f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l ,Q D runk w h ite p e o p le a r r e s t e d ; n o w ,d id you a r r e s t any N egro es In th e v i c i n i t y o f a d e m o n s tr a tio n from Decem ber 10 to th e 1 s t o f J u l y ; t h a t i s , Decem ber 12 t o th e 1 s t o f J u l y ? MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I t h in khe o u g h t to make i t c l e a r what he makes r e f e r e n c e t o , w h e th e r th e y w ere d e m o n s tr a to r s o r w ere n o t d e m o n stra to r ’s
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 297A
MR. HGLLQWELL: May i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , t h i s i s e x a c t l y what w e 'v e d o n e , b u t I ' l l r e p h r a s e th e q u e s t io n so t h e r e w o n 't be any q u e s t io n ab o u t i t .Q D id you a r r e s t any Negro o r any w h ite p e rso n i n th e v i c i n i t y o f any s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s tr a t io n from D ecem ber 12 to t h e 2 0 th o f J u l y , o t h e r th a n you s a y -A When you. say In th e v i c i n i t y o f a d e m o n s tr a t io n - Q E x c u s e me, s i r - l e t me f i n i s h - o t h e r t h a n , a s you s a y , some 4 o r 5 w h ite p e rs o n s who w ere d ru n k i n t h e v i c i n i t y and you a r r e s t e d them ?A When you s a y v i c i n i t y o f t h i s , a re you i n c l u d in g S h i l o h , M t. Z io n o r i n S o u th Harlem w here th e y come th r o u g h , in t h e v i c i n i t y o f t h e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s ?Q, A lo n g th e r o u t e , s h a l l we s a y ?A T h a t w ould be i n th e v i c i n i t y , w o u ld n 't i t ?Q T h a t 's r i g h t ; a lo n g th e r o u te ?A Y e s , we made a r r e s t s t h e r e o f b o th N egro andw h it e . Q, F o r w hat?A Some f o r d r u n k , some f o r d i s o r d e r ly c o n d u c t ,some f o r o t h e r c h a r g e s .Q D u r in g th e tim e o f t h e s o - c a l l e d m arch es?A You s a id from Decem ber to J u l y 2 0 .Q Y e s b u t I s a y d u r in g th e tim e o f th e a c t u a l p r o c e s s o f th e m a r c h in g , as you r e l a t e d ?A I f I remember r i g h t , you s a id in th e v i c i n i t y o f t h e s e t h i n g s , n o t d u r in g .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 298A
Q I s a id i n th e v i c i n i t y and d u r in g . C h ie f ?A Y e s , y e s .Q How many ?A I h ave no know ledge as to how m any.Q Who w ere th e y ? Can you remember any one p e rs o n ?A From Decem ber 1 u n t i l J u l y 20?Q T h a t 's r i g h t , l e t ' s narrow i t down, C h i e f :On D ecem ber 1 2 , from th e tim e t h a t th e l i n e l e f t I t s p o in t o f o r i g i n u n t i l th e tim e o f a r r e s t s o f th e l i n e —A N o.Q — can you name any p e rs o n t h a t was a r r e s t e d , o th e r th a n th o s e who w ere in t h e l i n e ?A N o, we d i d n ' t a r r e s t - I w ould l i k e t o answ er t h a t w ith a "no" and e x p la in m y s e l f . N o, we d i d n ' t make a n y , b e c a u se a l l o f my o f f i c e r s w ere a s s ig n e d to t h i s a r e a ; we had no one o u t t o do any o r t o answ er any c a l l s o r p a t r o l l i n g t h e s t r e e t s as you w ould u n d e r n orm al c o n d it io n s ; and we d id n o t h ave u n i t s o u t p a t r o l l i n g . T h ese o f f i c e r s w ere c o n fin e d t o one a r e a , f o r th e s o l e p u rp o se o f s e e in g t h a t t h e p e a c e and th e q u ie t and th e d i g n i t y o f th e C i t y was p r e s e r v e d w h ile t h e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s w ere g o in g o n , a l l law e n fo rce m e n t o f f i c e r s o f th e C i t y , C ou n ty and S t a t e were r i g h t t h e r e .Q, Were r i g h t in t h e a r e a o f th e m a rch , as you c a l l i t ?A
Q,A
R ig h t in t h e a r e a , t h a t I s c o r r e c t R ig h t a lo n g i n t h a t g e n e r a l a r e a ? T h a t ! s r i g h t .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 299A
Q They w ere a l l a s s ig n e d to t h i s g e n e r a l a r e a ?A They w ere a s s ig n e d t o th e g e n e r a l a r e a , to s e et h a t th e p e a c e and q u ie t was m a in t a in e d , t h a t no one was h u r t , and t h a t we had no t r o u b l e ; and t o keep th e crow ds and th e c o n g e s t io n m o v in g .Q A l l r i g h t , l e t u s go to Decem ber 13: Were th e r eany a r r e s t s from th e p o in t o f o r i g i n t o t h e t im e o f a r r e s t o f any p e r s o n s , w h ite o r N e g ro , a lo n g th e l i n e t h a t was co u rs e d by t h e s o - c a l l e d " m a r c h e r s " , o t h e r th a n th e m a rch e rs ?A I a g a in s a y , answ er i t w it h a No, w ith th e e x p la n a t io n t h a t th e o f f i c e r s ------Q W ith th e same e x p la n a t io n ?A T h a t 's e x a c t l y r i g h t , t h a t th e y w ere c o n fin e d to t h e a r e a and u n a b le to do r o u t in e p o l i c e w o rk , u n a b le to e f f i c i e n t l y answ er c a l l s t h a t w ere r e c e iv e d i n th e D e p a rtm e n t.Q About how many o f f i c e r s w ould you s a y co m p rised t h i s t o t a l u n i t t h a t was th r o u g h o u t t h i s a r e a w here th e l i n e o f m arch was?A My D ep artm en t c o n s is t e d a t t h a t tim e o f 60~some odd m en. We had th e S h e r i f f ' s o f f i c e , th e County P o l i c e , and p o s s i b ly 60 t o 70 S t a t e T r o o p e r s , w h ich made ab o u t
150 o r -60 o f f i c e r s .Q, About 150 o r -60 o f f i c e r s ?A Y e s .Q, And w hat i s t h e f u r t h e r e s t d is t a n c e t h a t any o f t h e s e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s tr a t io n s h ave o r ig in a t e d from t o th e p o l i c e s t a t i o n ?
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o , 727 3C0A
A P o s s ib l y 6 to 8 b l o c k s .Q, Do you know o f any p o in t o f o r i g i n o t h e r th a n th e v i c i n i t y o f S h i lo h C h u rch ?A Not to my k n o w le d g e ,Q A l l r i g h t , so a c t u a l l y you h ave a b lo c k e a s t from th e c o m e r o f W h itn e y , t h a t i s th e s o u th - t h a t would be t h e n o r t h e a s t c o m e r o f W hitney and J e f f e r s o n ; you have one b lo c k t o t h e e a s t to J a c k s o n , a second b lo c k w ould be from Ja c k s o n t o H ig h la n d ; a t h i r d b lo c k w ould be to O g le -” th o r p e ; a 4 th b lo c k to B r o a d , and th e f i f t h b lo c k to P in e : S o , th e lo n g e s t d i s t a n c e t h a t h as e v e r , been in v o lv e d h as been a p p r o x im a te ly 5 b lo c k s , I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I s t a t e d 5 to 6 b l o c k s ,Q I b e l i e v e you s t a t e d 7 o r 8 b l o c k s , and t h a tw it h in t h a t a r e a you had u n d er y o u r c o n t r o l a p p r o x im a te ly
150 o r *60 o r *70 o f f i c e r s ?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t ,Q And y e t , t h e r e was n e v e r a t any tim e on t h e 1 2 th o r th e 13t h o r th e 1 5 th o f D ecem ber o f ! 6l t h a t th e r e w ere any a r r e s t s m ade, o t h e r th a n you sa y p e rh a p s 4 o r 5 d r u n k s , w h ite as y o u 'v e i n d i c a t e d , o t h e r th a n t h e m a rc h e rs ; now — MR, LEVERETT; May I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , hed i d n ' t s a y t h a t . T h a t was n o t h i s t e s t im o n y .MR. HOLLOWELL: I beg p a rd o n ?Q I s i t n o t y o u r te s t im o n y t h a t th e r e w ere no a r r e s t s m ade, o t h e r th a n th e s o - c a l l e d m arch ers on th e d ay s g iv e n r e s p e c t i v e l y ; t h a t i s , t h e 12 t h , th e 13t h and th e l o t h o f D ecem b er, ' 6l , a lo n g th e r o u te o f m arch , I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 301A
A D u rin g th e d e m o n s tr a t io n s and th e m arch es?Q Y e s ?A I d id n o t sa y t h a t t h e r e w ere 5 o r 6 . I s a id 5 o r 6 from th e p e r io d in D ecem ber u n t i l t h e d a te you s a i d .Q Oh I s e e , w h ich was a c t u a l l y to J u l y ?A D u r in g t h e m a rc h e s , t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q D u rin g th e m arch es?A B e c a u s e , as I s t a t e d In my answ er t h a t I g a v e y o u , I g a v e you my answ er w ith th e e x p la n a t io n t h a t we d id n o t and c o u ld n o t h a n d le r o u t in e and do r o u t in e p o l i c e w o rk , b e c a u s e we w ere a s s ig n e d t o t h e p r o t e c t io n o f t h e s e m a rch ers and d e m o n s t r a t o r s , i n t r y i n g to keep t h e p e a c e and th e q u ie t o f th e C i t y , to keep t h e s e l a r g e g a t h e r i n g s , w h ich t h e s e p i c t u r e s d e n o te , from m in g lin g and s t a y i n g i n th e v i c i n i t y w here we knew i f we k e p t them m oving t h a t w e'd h ave l e s s d a n g e r o f v i o l e n c e ; and t h e s e o f f i c e r s w ere t h e r e a s s ig n e d t o t h i s a r e a t o do t h i s ; and th e y d id a w o n d e rfu l jo b In d o in g i t , and t h i s i s t h e re a so n we c o u l d n 't c a r r y on r o u t in e p o l i c e w ork In t h e C i t y o f A lb a n y d u r in g t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s .Q Now, C h i e f , d u r in g t h a t same p e r io d from Decem ber 12 to th e 2 0 th o f J u l y , Decem ber 1 2 , ' 6l t o 20 J u l y ' 62, d u r in g any s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s t r a t io n , was t h e r e e v e r an a r r e s t o f any p e rso n a lo n g th e g e n e r a l r o u te o f m arch f o r s p i t t i n g on an o f f i c e r ? Y e s o r No?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t and e x p la in m y s e lf?THE COURT: Y e s
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 302A
A The W itn e s s : W ith a "No" b e c a u s e I was n o te v e ry w h e re . I was a t d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s . I c a n ’ t s p e a k f o r e v e ry o f f i c e r o f my D ep artm en t and e v e ry S t a t e T ro o p e r h e r e t h a t was a b u s e d , s p a t u p o n , i n t im id a t e d ; and I c a n ' t s p e a k f o r th em . I t h i n k th e y w ould be t h e on es t o t a l k . I d id n o t s e e i t b e c a u s e I was n o t everyw h ere a t o n c e ,Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I d i d n ' t a s k you vti e t h e r you sawi t ; I ask e d you w h e th e r t h e r e was an a r r e s t ? None to y o u r k n o w le d g e , you answ ered "N o"?A None to my k n o w le d g e .Q Now, l e t me a s k you t h i s : D u rin g th e p e r io d from D ecem ber 12 to J u l y 2 0 , was t h e r e e v e r an i n d i v i d u a l a r r e s t e d f o r th ro w in g a r o c k a t a p o lic e m a n o r any p e rs o n a lo n g th e g e n e r a l r o u te o f m arch d u r in g any o f o r b e fo r e o r im m e d ia te ly a f t e r any o f th e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s tr a t io n s ? Was th e r e e v e r an a r r e s t t o y o u r k n ow led ge?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h i s and e x p la in m y s e l f . No, th e r e was n o t an a r r e s t , b u t t h e r e w ere r o c k s throw n a t p a t r o l c a r s , throw ed a t o t h e r p e o p le who w ere in th e v i c i n i t y o f t h e s e c h u r c h e s , b e fo r e t h e s e m arches o r d u r in g t h e s e m a r c h e s . B ut t h e r e was n e v e r any a r r e s t made b e c a u s e o u r c a r s and o u r men w ere t i e d up and c o u l d n 't answ er c a l l s to any p a r t o f th e C i t y to i n v e s t i g a t e and lo o k i n t o t h e s e t h in g s w h ich w ere r e p o r t e d .Q L e t me s e e i f I u n d e rs ta n d y o u r t e s t im o n y ,C h i e f , t h a t t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w le d g e , t h e r e w ere no a r r e s t s , o t h e r th a n t h e 4 o r 5 p e r s o n s i n d i c a t e d , from D ecem ber 12 u n t i l Decem ber 2 0 , o f any p e rso n a lo n g th e
H e a r in g on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 303A
g e n e r a l r o u te o f m arch , o f any d e m o n s t r a t io n , o t h e r th a n th e m a rch e rs th e m s e lv e s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A N o, I t h i n k I t e s t i f i e d t h a t d u r in g t h i s t h a tt h e r e w ere some p e o p le who w ere a r r e s t e d d u r in g th e m arches o t h e r th a n th e d e m o n s t r a t o r s .Q I 'm s o r r y , s i r ?A I s a y , I t e s t i f i e d t h a t d u r in g t h e s e m a rc h e s , o t h e r p e o p le , 2 o r 3 o r 4 , w ere a r r e s t e d , o t h e r th a n th e m a r c h e r s .Q And t h a t was from Decem ber 12 u n t i l J u l y 2 0 , you s a y ; I s a id o t h e r th a n t h o s e , th o s e in th e m arch es?A T h a t 's what I t e s t i f i e d t o .Q And th e y w ere d ru n k s?A I w ould l i k e to e x p la in t h i s .Q And you f u r t h e r e x p la in e d t h a t th e re a s o n f o rt h i s was - THE COURT: W e l l , l e t him e x p la in i t . Yougo a h e a d .A . The W itn e s s : I w ould l i k e t o e x p la in I t .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .A . The W itn e s s : I answ ered t h i s , y e s , t h e r ew a s, and t h e r e w ere some ch a rg e d w ith d ru n k ; t h e r e were some ch a rg e d w ith d i s o r d e r ly c o n d u c t ; and p r i o r to - I d o n 't know w h eth er i t was th e 20t h o r th e 21s t o r 22nd o r 23r d , t h e r e w ere p e o p le who w ere a r r e s t e d t o t i n g p i s t o l s in t h e i r p o c k e t , ch a rg e d w ith c a r r y in g c o n c e a le d weapons and t r a n s f e r r e d . T h e re w ere o t h e r p e o p le who w ere c a r r y in g p i s t o l s i n t h e i r p o c k e t t h a t were a r r e s t e d f o r d r u n k , t h a t
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 30^A
had p e r m its t o c a r r y t h e s e p i s t o l s , and w ere p u t I n j a i l by o f f i c e r s o f my d e p a r tm e n t, i n t h e v i c i n i t y o f t h e s e d i s t u r b a n c e s . Q Now, C h i e f , d o n ’ t you know t h a t t h a t ' s d i r e c t l y c o n tr a r y to t h e s ta te m e n t t h a t you made l e s s th a n f i v e m in u te s ago?A N o, I d o n ’ t .Q Name me one p e r s o n , one p e rso n t h a t was a r r e s t e d o t h e r th a n th e m a rch e rs d u r in g th e tim e o f th e s o - c a l l e d m a rc h e s , in t h e v i c i n i t y o f th e r o u t e o f m arch , from Decem ber 12 to J u l y 20; name me o n e , o t h e r th a n 4 o r 5 d ru n k s f o r d i s o r d e r ly c o n d u c t o r b e in g d ru n k on t h e s t r e e t ?A He s a y s d u r in g th e m arch es and t h e m arch es c o n tin u e d p a s t t h e 20t h . I w ould l i k e to e x p la in m y s e lf .MR, H0LL0WELL: W e l l , i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,I w ant him t o answ er th e q u e s t io n t h a t I a s k e d ,THE COURT: W e l l , I t h i n k , i f I u n d e rsta n dw hat t h e s i t u a t i o n i s , I t h in k th e w it n e s s i s now e n co m p a ssin g i n h i s answ er some d a t e w h ich was n o t encom passed i n h i s o r i g i n a l a n sw e r.MR. H0LL0WELL: W e l l , we w ant i t —THE COURT; A n d , o f c o u r s e , t h e r e ’ s no u sef o r th e w it n e s s to be c o n fu s e d , no re a so n f o r i t , o r c o u n s e l b e in g c o n fu s e d . The q u e s t io n , now, C h i e f , t h a t he i s a s k in g you s to p s w ith th e d a t e , J u l y 2 0 ,The q u e s t io n t h a t he h a s asked you i s from p e r io d b e g in n in g D ecem ber 12 and e n d in g J u l y 20 - -
H e a rin g On M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 305A
The W itn e s s : THE COURT:MR. HOLLDWELL: THE COURT:MR. HOLLOWELL:
What was th e 2 0 th , Y o u r H on or. W e l l , I d o n 't know.S u n d a y , I b e l i e v e I t w a s , s i r . N o, on F r i d a y .On F r i d a y , l e t ' s s e e - J u l y 20was on a F r id a y .Q Now, from D ecem ber 1 2 , 196l t o J u l y 2 0 , 1962 —THE COURT: Now, j u s t l e t y o u r answ er to t h i sq u e s t io n , C h i e f , r e l a t e t o t h a t p e r io d ; and t h e n , a f t e r you have answ ered i t , i f you a r e asked a q u e s t io n s t a r t i n g w ith a n o th e r p e r io d , th e n you w ould g iv e t h a t In fo r m a t io n w it h r e g a r d to t h a t . I f you a r e n o t a s k e d , o f c o u r s e , t h e r e w ould be no re a so n f o r y o u r r e l a t i n g y o u r te s t im o n y t o any o t h e r p e r io d .A The W itn e s s : T h e re w ere 2 o r 3 .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : 2 o r 3?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q And none o f th o s e w ere f o r s p i t t i n g on ano f f i c e r ? R ig h t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Or th ro w in g any o b j e c t a t an o f f i c e r ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Nor c u r s in g o r c a l l i n g an o f f i c e r o t h e r nam es,i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Now, d u r in g th e month o f J u n e , 1 952, I b e l i e v e you in d ic a t e d t h a t you had some c o n v e r s a t io n s from tim e to tim e w ith D r . A nderson and S l a t e r K in g and M arion P age and
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3C6A
R e v . G a y : do you remember a c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t you had on o r ab o u t Ju n e 1 2 , 1962? . . . S i r ?A A t t o r n e y , I 'm t r y i n g t o rem em ber. W e've had so many m e e tin g s and so many d a t e s and so many c o n fe r e n c e s w ith t h e s e e x e c u t iv e members t h a t i t ' s h a rd to rem em ber.I d o n 't r e c a l l J u l y o r Ju n e 1 2 . I f you can show me somet h in g t h a t would r e f r e s h my memory, I ' l l be g la d to t e s t i f y to i t and g iv e you what I know ab o u t i t .Q, W e ll now, d u r in g t h a t g e n e r a l p e r io d you had been a p p o in te d by th e C i t y C o m m issio n e r o r th e C i t y Com m ission as th e o f f i c i a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f them i n c o n n e c t io n w it h m a tte r s p e r t a i n i n g to th e A lb a n y M ovem ent, i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ?A I would l i k e t o answ er t h a t and e x p la in I t .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .A The W itn e s s ; I was and I was g iv e n p e r m is s io n to t a l k t o t h e A lb a n y Movement and th e o t h e r p e o p le co n n e cte d w ith I t , p e r t a i n i n g to th e p o l i c i e s s e t f o r t h by th e C i t y C o m m issio n , a s r e l a t e d to me In my d is c u s s io n s w ith th em .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, on o r a b o u t t h e 1 2 th o f J u n e , you had a c o n v e r s a t io n In y o u r o f f i c e w ith th e p a r t i e s m e n tio n e d , n a m e ly , M r. S l a t e r K in g , M arlon P a g e , A t to r n e y C . B , K in g and D r . A n d erson j you h ave had su ch c o n v e r s a t io n s w ith th o s e p e r s o n s , h a v e n 't you?A I h ave had m any.Q Do you have any n o te s w h ich w ould h e lp you to remember t h a t p a r t i c u l a r d a t e ?A N o, I d o n ’ t .
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 307A
q W e l l , a t no tim e w ere you e v e r a b le t o g e t t h e C i t y Com m ission t o a c t u a l l y m eet w it h t h a t g r o u p , d id you?A I w ould l i k e t o answ er t h a t and e x p la in m y s e l f .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .A The W itn e s s : I s a y ” no" and i t was n o t myr e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o g e t th e C i t y Com m ission t o m eet w ith th e A lb a n y M ovem ent, wy o n ly c a p a c i t y was to be a spokesm an f o r th e C i t y Com m ission in m e e tin g s w ith t h e s e p e o p le and n o t to u s e any ty p e o f i n f l u e n c e to g e t th e C i t y Com m ission to m eet w ith t h e members o f t h e A lb a n y M ovem ent.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Does th e Com m ission h a v e a ch a irm an ?A The Com m ission as a M ayor.Q I s he th e Chairm an?A I w ould g u e s s he w ould be c a l l e d th e c h a irm a n , th e e x e c u t iv e o f f i c e r o f th e C o m m issio n .Q As f a r a s you know, t h e C i t y Com m ission has n e v e r met w it h t h e le a d e r s o f t h e A lb a n y M ovem ent, h a v e th e y ?A Members o f th e Com m ission have met w it h th e - Q The C i t y Com m ission?THE COURT: L e t him an sw er t h e q u e s t io n .A The W itn e s s : - h ave met w it h th e A lb a n y M ovem ent.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : You s a y members o f . Has th eCom m ission en b a n c , h as th e t o t a l Com m ission?A The A lb a n y Movement -Q E x cu se me, s i r , would you answ er t h a t y e s o r no?A N o, b u t I ’ d l i k e t o e x p la in i t .Q A l l r i g h t .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 308a
A T h a t t h e A lb a n y Movement th r o u g h i t s P r e s id e n t r e q u e s te d me, w it h th e P o l i c e Com m ittee o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y , a t w h ich tim e i t was s e t up and met w ith th e members o f th e E x e c u t iv e Com m ittee o f t h e A lb a n y M ovem ent, w it h t h e P o l i c e Com m ittee o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y . And t h i s was t h e o n ly r e q u e s t t h a t I know o f to m eet w ith t h i s g rou p and th e y h ave met w it h them in open c o u n c i l m e e t in g s , a s any o t h e r c i t i z e n , r e g a r d le s s o f r a c e , c o l o r o r c r e e d h a s a r i g h t t o d o , w h eth er t h e y 'r e i n v i t e d o r w h eth er th e y a r e n o t .Q, You say th e y have met w ith them ; you mean th e y have s a t and t h e r e w ere some members o f th e A lb a n y Movement t h e r e ; and t h i s was j u s t a r e g u la r m e e tin g a t w h ich anyone c o u ld a t t e n d , i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ?MR. LEVERETT; May i t p l e a s e th e C o u r t , N o. 1 ,I t h in k th e m in u te s w ould be t h e h i g h e s t and b e s t e v id e n c e ; and N o. 2 , I d o n 't t h i n k i t ' s been in d ic a t e d w h e th e r t h i s w it n e s s was t h e r e o r n o t ; aod u n le s s he was t h e r e , he c e r t a i n l y c o u ld n o t t e s t i f y o r f u r n is h th e in fo r m a tio n c a l l e d f o r .THE COURT: Y e s , I presum e t h i s w it n e s s , asa lw a y s , u n d e r s ta n d s t h a t i t i s n o t o n ly n o t r e q u ir e d b u t i t w ould n o t b e p r o p e r f o r him to t e s t i f y ab ou t a n y t h in g a b o u t w h ich he h a s no k n o w le d g e ,Q. M r. H o l lo w e l l : Do you have any know ledge o f th e C i t y Com m ission as su ch e v e r m e e tin g w it h t h e le a d e r s o f th e A lb a n y Movement? Y e s o r N o, C h ie f ?A I h a v e know ledge t h a t th e P r e s id e n t o f t h e A lb a n y Movement and t h e E x e c u t iv e S e c r e t a r y m e t.
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 309A
MR. HOLLQWELL; I f i t p le a s e t h e C o u rt -A The W itn e s s : I w ould s a y " y e s " and e x p la inm y s e lf , Y o u r H o n or.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : When?A In open Com m ission m e e tin g - th e d a t e was unknown, i t was s h o r t l y a f t e r - l e t ' s s e e , i t was 60 d ay s a f t e r th e d e m o n s tr a t io n s w ere c a l l e d t o a h a l t i n D ecem b er, a t th e f i r s t c o u n c i l m e e tin g , I t h i n k a f t e r , o r t h e second one in J a n u a r y , I b e l i e v e i t w a s, w here t h e A lb a n y Movement P r e s id e n t , W. G . A n d e rs o n , and M arion S . Page w ere e s c o r te d t o t h i s m e e tin g by me in p e r s o n .Q T h is was a t a r e g u la r m e e tin g ?A A t a r e g u la r m e e tin g .Q And t h a t was when?A I f my memory s e r v e s me r i g h t , i t was th e second o r t h ir d m e e tin g i n J a n u a r y .Q A l l r i g h t , h as th e r e e v e r been a tim e whent h e r e was a m e e tin g o f th e Com m ission w it h th e le a d e r s o fth e A lb a n y M ovem ent, a t w h ich t h e r e w ere no o t h e r p e r s o n s to y o u r know led ge?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t "Y e s " and e x p la in I t , T h ere was a m e e tin g .Q And when was t h a t , s i r ?A I w ould l i k e to c o n t in u e t o e x p la in t h i s .Q A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .A T h e re w a s, and t h e r e was a m e e tin g w h ich was c a l l e d a t th e r e q u e s t o f th e P r e s id e n t o f t h e A lb a n y Movement
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n ,, N o. 727 31QA
to m eet w ith th e P o l i c e Com m ittee and th e C i t y M anager o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y .MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I su b m it t h a t t h a t was n o t a t a l l r e s p o n s iv e and I move t h a t i t be s t r i c k e n and t h a t th e w it n e s s be d ir e c t e d t o answ er th e q u e s t io n .THE COURT: Do you know th e d a te when t h a tm e e tin g was h e ld , C h i e f , t h a t yori j u s t r e f e r r e d t o ?A The W itn e s s : No s i r , I d o n 't know th e d a t e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , t h a t was n o t t h e q u e s t io n a s k e d , I d i d n ' t a s k him ab ou t any 2 o r 3 p e o p le . I asked ab o u t t h e C i t y C o m m issio n , and he h a s r e f e r r e d to some s e p a r a t e —THE COURT: Maybe I can g e t a t i t - l e t mes e e I f I can s a t i s f y th e s i t u a t i o n ?MR. HOLLOWELL: Thank y o u , s i r .THE COURT: You t e s t i f i e d , C h i e f , t h a t th eC it y C o m m issio n , t h a t members o r r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f th e A lb a n y Movement d id a tte n d a m e e tin g o f t h e C i t y Com m ission a t some t im e , a re g u la r* m e e tin g o f th e C i t y C o m m issio n , I f o r g e t what d a t e you r e f e r r e d t o , i t ' s I n t h e r e c o r d ~A The W itn e s s : Y e s .THE COURT: B u t s o f a r a s you know, th e C i t yCom m ission as a body h a s n o t h e ld a s p e c i a l m e e tin g w it h r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f th e A lb a n y M ovem ent, th e C i t y Com m ission as an e n t i r e body?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 311A
A The W itn e s s : THE COURT*. The W itn e s s : THE COURT:
T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Has n o t h e ld a s p e c i a l m e e tin g ? T h a t 1s c o r r e c t .I s t h a t th e in fo r m a t io n youw a n te d , M r. H o l lo w e ll?MR. HOLLOWELL: Y e s s i r .Q, Now, C h i e f , a t t h i s c o n fe r e n c e - e x c u s e me - do you e v e r o r h ave you e v e r had a c o n fe r e n c e In w h ich M r. S e a r le s was p r e s e n t ?A Y e s , I h a v e .Q, And a t t h e same tim e w it h D r . A nderson and A t to r n e y K in g and S l a t e r K in g and M r. P age?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , a t t h i s tim e we w ould l i k e to o b j e c t to t h i s t e s t im o n y . I t h in k a l l o f t h i s l i n e o f te s t im o n y i s im m a te r ia l and i r r e l e v a n t . T h is i s n o t a la b o r r e l a t i o n s c a s e , in w h ich th e i s s u e i s w h eth er th e p a r t i e s h a v e b a r g a in e d , and f o r t h a t re a so n we t h i n k t h a t a l l o f t h e te s t im o n y i s I r r e l e v a n t and. s h o u ld be s t r i c k e n .THE COURT: What i s th e p o in t o f t h i s , M r.H o llo w e ll?Now, y o u 'v e a lr e a d y d e v e lo p e d s o m e th in g w h ich th e r e was no o b j e c t i o n t o , ab ou t w h e th e r th e r e had e v e r been a m e e t in g , w h eth er th e r e had e v e r .b een a s p e c i a l m e e tin g and su ch as t h a t . Now, a l l d e t a i l s ab o u t any c o n t a c t s betw een t h e C i t y Com m ission and r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f th e A lb a n y M ovem ent, what i s th e p u rp o se o f a l l o f t h a t ?
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 312A
MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , I t h in k N o. 1 —THE COURT: In th e f i r s t p la c e now , t h i sman on th e s ta n d i s th e C h i e f o f P o l i c e . H e 's n o t a member o f th e C i t y C o m m issio n . H e 's n o t a member o f th e b o d y . Now, he d id t e s t i f y t h a t he was d e s ig n a t e d t o c o n t a c t and be a c o n t a c t w it h t h e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f t h e s e p e o p le . B u t th e d e t a i l s o f any p a r t i c u l a r m e e tin g on any p a r t i c u l a r d a y , what i s th e p u rp o se o f a l l o f t h a t ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I t h in k b e c a u s e , Y o u r H onor:N o . 1 , on d i r e c t e x a m in a tio n th e C h ie f opened i t up In s t a t i n g t h a t t h e r e had been many m e e tin g s w ith th e le a d e r s and even on some o c c a s io n s i n w h ich R e v . M a rtin L u th e r K in g was p r e s e n t . T h ere h ave been s ta te m e n ts as t o what was s a id on o c c a s io n s r e l a t i v e to th e comp l i a n c e w ith c e r t a i n la w s . T h ere w ere s ta te m e n ts in tr o d u c e d - o r th e y h a v e n 't been in tr o d u c e d y e t b u t w h ich w ere s u b m itte d f o r p e r u s a l by th e C h i e f - p e r t a i n i n g to c e r t a i n r e l e a s e s , and I w ould su b m it t h a t I t g o e s to t h e i r - to t h e a n sw e rin g o f c e r t a i n e v id e n c e w h ich was e l i c i t e d on d i r e c t e x a m in a t io n , a t th e in s t a n c e o f th e P l a i n t i f f s 1' c o u n s e l . They p u t I t i n t o i s s u e . THE COURT: W e ll , he t e s t i f i e d ab o u t th em e e tin g s t h a t he knows a b o u t; b u t t o a s k him q u e st i o n s a b o u t what went on betw een t h e s e p e o p le and th e C i t y C o m m issio n , I d o n 't s e e t h a t t h i s w itn e s s i s th e p r o p e r p e rso n to q u e s t io n ab o u t t h a t . And as
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 313A
I say * I ’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t th e m a t e r i a l i t y o f i t anyhow . In o t h e r w o rd s , what went on In th e m e e t in g s , how i s t h a t p e r t in e n t t o th e q u e s t io n t h a t i s b e fo r e me now, ab o u t w h eth er an i n j u n c t i o n s h o u ld be is s u e d w ith r e g a r d to t h e s e mass d e m o n s tr a t io n s ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I would su b m it t h e r e , s i r —THE COURT: U n le s s t h e r e ' s some c o n n e c t io nbetw een t h e m ass d e m o n s tr a t io n s and t h e m e e t in g s .And w hat may h ave been s a id In a m e e t in g , w h ich m ig h t h a v e u se d as an e x c u s e o r a s a re a s o n o r a s a j u s t i f i c a t io n f o r mass d e m o n s tr a t io n s w ould be g o in g a s te p b e y o n d , I t h i n k , what i s p e r t i n e n t . In o t h e r w o rd s , t h e s e D e fe n d a n ts m ay, when th e y t e s t i f y , th e y may say t h a t b e c a u s e th e y c o u l d n 't g e t what th e y w a n te d , th e y f e l t l i k e th e y had a r i g h t to do w h a te v e r th e y wanted to d o . I d o n ’ t know what t h e y 'r e g o in g t o t e s t i f y .B u t t o go I n t o what was s a id i n t h e s e Com m ission m e e tin g s seems t o me to be g o in g beyond th e re a lm o f p e r t in e n c y . I w ondered why c o u n s e l h a d n 't made some o b j e c t i o n to some o f I t b e fo r e t h i s t im e , b u t I d i d n ' t w ish to ta k e i t upon m y s e lf t o r e s t r a i n I t , and I d o n ’ t want to do so u n d u ly now. B ut t h i s w it n e s s has been on th e s ta n d now f o r q u it e a w h i l e .MR. HOLLOWELL: V ery t r u e .THE COURT: And i f we s im p ly th row t h i s opento any r a m i f i c a t i o n s t h a t anybody m ig h t t h in k h as a n y t h in g t o do w ith th e o v e r a l l s i t u a t i o n , a g r e a t
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 314A
d e a l o f w h ich y o u 'r e g o in g I n t o w ould be p e r t in e n t and w ould r e l a t e to a s u i t w h ich you h a v e f i l e d , w h ich w i l l come up f o r h e a r in g In due c o u r s e , t h e s e s u i t s t h a t you h ave f i l e d in v o lv i n g th e C i t y o f A lb a n y and i t s o f f i c i a l s , * b u t w ith r e g a r d to t h i s I s s u e t h a t i s b e fo r e me now, I t h in k a g r e a t d e a l o f I t i s c l e a r l y n o t r e le v a n t to what w e 'r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .MR. HOLLCWELL: By th e C o u r t 's s ta te m e n t - was Y o u r Honor th ro u g h ?THE COURT: Y e s .MR. HOLLOWELL: By th e C o u r t 's s t a t e m e n t , th e C o u rt d o e s n 't mean to I n d i c a t e t h a t t h e s e m a tte r s w h ich h a v e been opened up by th e P l a i n t i f f s on t h e i r d i r e c t c a n n o t be p u rsu ed on c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n w it h in r e a s o n a b le bou nds?THE COURT: W ith in r e a s o n a b le b o u n d s .T h a t 's th e r e a s o n I ' v e l e t i t go as f a r as I h a v e .And y o u 'v e c r o s s -e x a m in e d h im , I t h i n k , r a t h e r f u l l y a lr e a d y on a l l o f t h i s s o r t o f b u s in e s s ; and now, to go ahead and a s k him q u e s t io n s ab o u t e x a c t l y what was s a id a t m e e tin g on su ch and su ch a d a t e and what was s a id a t a m e e tin g on a n o th e r d a t e seems to me to go to o f a r . I ' v e a llo w e d you to a s k him ab o u t w h eth er t h e r e w ere m e e tin g s o r w h eth er t h e r e w ere n o t , b e c a u se he h i m s e l f t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e r e w ere m e e tin g s ; and he t e s t i f i e d ab o u t a l e t t e r w h ich was w r i t t e n . And t h a t ' s th e re a s o n I ' v e a llo w e d you t o c r o s s -e x a m in e him ab ou t m a tte r s t h a t w ere r e f e r r e d t o i n t h e l e t t e r . B u t I
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 315A
a s k y o u to c o o p e r a te w ith us i n t r y i n g t o e x p e d it e i t by n o t g o in g i n t o t h e s e s id e is s u e s and d e t a i l s , w h ich r e a l l y go beyond t h e re a lm o f p e r t in e n c y , as I s e e i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , t h i s we w i l l c e r t a i n l y t r y t o d o , b u t I w ould c e r t a i n l y w ant th e r e c o r d t o show , as I know i t d o e s , t h a t t h i s w it n e s s , who was on f o r th e P l a i n t i f f s f o r t h e p e r io d o f some 5 o r 6 o r 7 h o u rs p r i o r to c r o s s e x a m in a t io n , h as t e s t i f i e d as to s ta te m e n ts made by c e r t a i n o f th e D e fe n d a n ts in m e e tin g s ] and I w ould su b m it t h a t i t w ould be most a p p r o p r ia t e and w it h in t h e p r o p e r sco p e o f c r o s s e x a m in a tio n f o r t h e D e fe n d a n ts t o a d d r e s s th e m s e lv e s t o t h e s e m a t t e r s . And t h i s i s what I s h a l l t r y to d o , b u t c e r t a i n l y s h a l l a ls o s e e k t o c o o p e r a te so as n o t to go o u t s id e o f th e r e a s o n a b le l i m i t s o f c r o s s e x a m in a t io n , s i r , I a s s u r e y o u .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go ahead and l e t ' ss e e how f a r i t g o e s . I d o n 't want to u n d u ly r e s t r a i n you b u t I do a s k y o u r c o o p e r a t io n I n k e e p in g o u t t h e s e I s s u e s , w h ic h , a f t e r a l l now, w ould be m a tte r s f o r d e t e r m in a t io n and w ould be m a t e r ia l In a n o th e r s u i t w h ich you h a v e p e n d in g , w h ich w i l l be t r i e d i n due c o u r s e .Su p p ose a t t h i s t im e , so t h a t maybe you can r e v ie w what you had In m in d , su p p o se we t a k e a r e c e s s f o r ab o u t 10 m in u t e s .RECESS: 1 1 :1 2 AM t o 1 1 :2 5 AM 8 -1 -6 2
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 316A
Q M r. I i o l l o w e l l : C h i e f , a t t h i s m e e tin g in y o u r o f f i c e a t w h ich M r. S e a r l e s and Page and S l a t e r K in g and A tto r n e y K in g w ere on o r ab o u t t h e 1 2 th o f J u n e , w hat d id you mean by th e s t a t e m e n t , " I d o n 5t mind and you d o n ’ t m a tte r " - do you r e c o l l e c t t h a t ?MR. RAWLS: Now i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , weo b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t io n , upon th e ground t h a t i t ' s i r r e l e v a n t , i l l e g a l and im m a te r ia l and th row s no l i g h t on t h e i s s u e s b e fo r e th e C o u rt i n t h i s c a s e .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , he h a s n ’ t answ ered y e t .MR. RAWLS: I 'm o b j e c t i n g , Y o u r H o n or.THE COURT; I ’ m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d th eq u e s t io n . R ep eat th e q u e s t io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: The q u e s t io n w a s, a t th e m e e tin g o f Ju n e 1 2 , when M r. S e a r l e s , S l a t e r K in g ,D r . A n d e rs o n , M. S . Page and A t to r n e y K in g were p r e s e n t , I asked him w h e th e r o r n o t he r e c o l l e c t s m aking t h i s s ta te m e n t t o t h e e f f e c t t h a t " I d o n ’ t mind and you d o n ’ t m a t t e r " .THE COURT: I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .I d o n 't se e any p e r t in e n c e to a q u e s t io n l i k e t h a t t o th e i s s u e b e fo r e u s . I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .MR. HOLLOWELL: W ith o u t a s ta te m e n t from c o u n s e lon I t ? THE COURT: I ' l l h e a r from you b u t w h e th e rhe m ade, w h e th e r he r e c a l l s h a v in g made su ch a s t a t e ment i n J u n e , I d o n ’ t se e t h a t I t h as any p e r t in e n c e
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o , 727 317A
h e r e . I ’ l l h e a r from you b u t I d o n 't s e e what p e r t in e n c e i t h a s .MR. HOLLOWELL: He h a s t e s t i f i e d as to s ta te m e n ts made by D e fe n d a n ts ; he h a s t e s t i f i e d t o t h a t w h ich he s a y s was r e s u l t i n g from d e m o n s tr a t io n s and from s t a t e m ents made by t h e D e fe n d a n t s . I want t o f in d o u t w hat he m eant by c e r t a i n s ta te m e n ts t h a t he made as th e C h i e f o f P o l i c e and as t h e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f th e C i t y Com m ission t o t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r p e rs o n s w ith whom he was t a l k i n g . I su b m it t h a t i t w ould be m ost a p p r o p r ia t e and c e r t a i n l y w it h in th e sco p e o f th e c r o s s e x a m in a t io n , u n le s s he s a y s t h a t he d id n o t make th e s t a t e m e n t . A l l I 'm a s k in g i s , d id he make th e s t a t e m e n t , a n d , i f s o , th e n I want t o know what he m eant by i t .THE COURT: I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n to th eq u e s t io n .Q, M r. H o l lo w e ll ; C h i e f , on J u l y 2 1 , I b e l i e v e th e r e was one o f t h e s e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s t r a t io n s : do you r e c o l l e c t how many s o - c a l l e d m arch ers t h e r e w ere on t h a t o c c a s io n ?
Qo f f i c e r s ,A
QA
l 6l , more o r l e s s .l 6l , and you had a p p r o x im a te ly 120 t o 160 i s t h a t c o r r e c t .T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Now, w hat was th e r o u te o f t h a t grou p ?I t was th e same r o u t e t h a t was fo llo w e d by th eo th e r m arch ers
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 318A
Q S i r ?A The same r o u t e t h a t was fo llo w e d by th e o t h e r m a r c h e r s .Q, T h a t i s , g e n e r a l l y down from S h i lo h e a s t on W hitney t o S o u th Ja c k s o n and n o r th on S o u th J a c k s o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q Now, where w ere th e y s to p p e d ?A They w ere sto p p e d a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n - t o th eb e s t o f my know ledge - t h e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f Ja c k s o n and B ro a d . I t h in k th e y w ere le d - th e y w ere sto p p e d a t t h a t i n t e r s e c t i o n , I ’ m p r e t t y s u r e .Q, Do you r e c o l l e c t who was l e a d i n g t h a t gro u p ?A I t h in k i t was th e R e v . Sam uel W e lls o r W i l l s ,Q Do you h a v e any p h o to g ra p h s p e r t a i n i n g to t h a t p a r t i c u l a r o c c a s io n ?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t and e x p la in m y s e lf .THE COURT: Y e s .A The W itn e s s : No, and th e r e a s o n I h ave nop h o to g ra p h s o f t h a t o c c a s io n i s b e c a u s e t h a t a l l o f t h e p e r s o n n e l o f my D ep artm en t were a s s i g n e d , and I d id n o t have enough d e t e c t i v e s t o l e t lo o s e to ta k e p i c t u r e s . They were t r a v e l i n g in a c a r w ith a lo u d s p e a k e r , e n c o u r a g in g p e o p le to go ab o u t t h e i r b u s i n e s s , t o d is p e r s e from th e a r e a , to s t a y o u t o f t h e a r e a , and w ere down on th e i n t e r s e c t io n o f O g le th o r p e and B road - O g le th o r p e and J a c k s o n , a t t h i s I n t e r s e c t i o n w ith a lo u d s p e a k e r , a s k in g th e Negro p e o p le who had g a th e r e d on th e so u th w e s t and th e s o u th e a s t
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 319A
c o r n e r s t o d is p e r s e and go ab ou t t h e i r b u s i n e s s , t o where t h i s t r o u b le o f t h e j e e r i n g and th e c u r s in g and th e a b u s iv e la n g u a g e t h a t was b e in g throw n a t th e o f f i c e r s who w ere s t a t io n e d a t t h i s i n t e r s e c t i o n , t h a t we d id n o t h ave th e p e r s o n n e l t h a t we c o u ld tu r n lo o s e s u f f i c i e n t l y to ta k e p i c t u r e s o f t h i s d e m o n s t r a t io n , b e c a u se i t was o u r i n t e n t i o n to u s e e v e r y t h in g we had to s e e t h a t n o th in g happened t h a t n i g h t , and t h a t v io le n c e d id n o t e r u p t i n th e C i t y o f A lb a n y .Q D id any o f th e lo O -o d d o f f i c e r s t h a t you had u n d e r y o u r c o n t r o l make any a r r e s t o f any p e r s o n , o t h e r th a n - in t h e v i c i n i t y o f th e r o u t e - l e t me r e p h r a s e t h a t , and s t r i k e t h a t , i f you p le a s e — D id any o f t h e 160 o f f i c e r s u n d e r y o u r command make any a r r e s t o f any p e rso n a lo n g th e r o u te up to th e tim e o f th e a r r e s t s , f o r s p i t t i n g on an o f f i c e r ? Y es o r No?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t and e x p la in t h a t .THE COURT: W e ll now, r i g h t t h e r e , t h a t ’ san exam ple o f what I 'm t r y i n g t o a v o id . T h a t-h a s a lr e a d y been co v e re d i n a q u e s t io n p r e v io u s ly ask e d t h i s w it n e s s , when you asked him d u r in g th e p e r io d from D ecem ber 1 2 , 1961 to J u l y 2 0 , I 9S 2 -MR. HOLLOWELL: W e 're on t h e 2 1 s t , s i r . T h is i s t h e 2 1 s t .TIIE COURT: I u n d e rs to o d t h a t y o u r q u e s t io nnow r e l a t e d t o a d a te i n Ju n e ?MR. HOLLOWELL: No s i r .THE COURT: I t r e l a t e s to J u l y ?
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 320A
MR. HOLLOWELL: J u l y 2 1 .THE COURT: J u l y 2 1 , a l l r i g h t ; I 'm wrongt h e n . Go a h e a d .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : The q u e s t io n w a s, d id any o f th e 160-odd o f f i c e r s u n d e r y o u r c o n t r o l make an a r r e s t o f any p e rso n a lo n g th e l i n e o f th e 160-odd p e r s o n s t h a t you say were m a rch in g ?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t and e x p la in m y s e lf .Q, J u s t a moment, I 'm n o t f i n i s h e d - on th e n ig h to f J u l y 2 1 , o t h e r th a n m a rch e rs? Y e s o r No?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t w it h a "No" and e x p la in my s i t u a t i o n .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .A The W itn e s s : T h ese o f f i c e r s w ere in l i n e s ,had been p la c e d I n l i n e s ; th e y had n o t - th e y had been t o ld n o t t o b r e a k t h e s e l i n e s , n o t to move o u t o f t h e s e l i n e s , and th e y w ere i n s u l t e d , abused -MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, i f i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , w e 'r e n o t —THE COURT: I w i l l a l lo w t h e w it n e s s toansw er a n d , I f t h e r e ' s any p o r t io n o f th e answ er t h a t you t h in k i s im m a t e r ia l , you may move t o s t r i k e i t .A The W itn e s s : — abused i n many w ays; b u tt h e s e o f f i c e r s had been i n s t r u c t e d t o th e p o in t t h a t th e y would n o t b r e a k t h i s l i n e u n d er any c ir c u m s t a n c e s , r e g a r d l e s s o f w h eth er you w ere h i t w ith b r i c k s , b o t t l e s , s p a t u p o n , c u s s e d a t o r a n y t h in g . And f o r t h i s r e a s o n , no a r r e s t s w ere made b e c a u s e th e y d id n o t b r e a k t h e c h a in o r th e l i n e ,
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 321A
b e ca u se th e y w ere t h e r e to s e e and t o p r o t e c t th e p e o p le and to keep t h e p e a c e and q u i e t . And th e y h e ld t h i s l i n e and n e v e r d id b r e a k i t under1 a l l o f t h e s e a d v e r s e c o n d i t i o n s , w h ich th e y had been s t r a i n i n g and s u f f e r i n g u n d e r s in c e th e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s s t a r t e d in J u l y .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, w here d id t h i s l i n e b e g i n , t h i s l i n e o f o f f i c e r s ?A T h is l i n e o f o f f i c e r s began a t t h e m id d le o f th e 200 b lo c k o f S o u th Ja c k s o n and ex te n d e d down S o u th Ja c k s o n t o O g le th o r p e A ven u e.Q Now, w here i s t h e m id d le o f t h e 200 b lo c k on S o u th Ja c k s o n ?A I t ’ s w here t h e a l l e y g o e s b e h in d th e C i t y H a l l .Q I s n ’ t th e 200 b lo c k on S o u th Ja c k s o n th e b lo c k betw een P in e and O g le th o r p e ?A I 'm s o r r y . T h ese o f f i c e r s e x ten d e d from N o rth Ja c k s o n , th e 200 b l o c k , m id d le o f th e 200 b lo c k o f N o rth J a c k s o n . I t was my e r r o r in s t a t i n g S o u th J a c k s o n , b e c a u se w e 'v e been down in t h e r e so much t h i s month u n t i l i t ' s s o r t o f h ard t o keep i t s t r a i g h t .Q Now, w ould you want to i n d i c a t e a g a in w here th e y exten d ed from ?A T h e se o f f i c e r s ex te n d e d from th e a l l e y b eh in d th e C i t y H a l l s o u th to O g le th o r p e A v e n u e .Q On w h ich s id e o f th e s t r e e t ?A On b o th s id e s o f th e s t r e e t i n s i n g l e l i n e s .Q, On b o th s i d e s ; w ere th e y on t h e s id e w a lk o r in th e s t r e e t ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 322A
A They w ere i n t h e s t r e e t .Q In th e s t r e e t ; now, name me one o f f i c e r on th e n ig h t o f t h e 2 1 s t who was h i t w ith a r o c k ? Name me any o f f i c e r t h a t you know?A On th e 2 1 s t , t h e r e was n o n e .Q. On th e 2 1 s t?A On S a tu r d a y n ig h t t h e r e w ere none t h a t w ere h i t w ith r o c k s .Q Name me one o f f i c e r who was s p a t o n , on t h e n ig h t o f t h e 2 1 s t?A Y o u r H o n or, I ' d l i k e to e x p la in t h i s a g a in , t h a t I was n o t p r e s e n t a t a l l t im e s and I c a n ' t s p e a k as to what happened a t a l l tim e s down t h e r e , o n ly w here I was a t . MR. RAWLS: May i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , wes t a t e in o u r p la c e t h a t we e x p e c t t o p la c e on th e w it n e s s s ta n d th e o f f i c e r who c la im s t h a t he was s p a t o n . THE COURT: W e l l , u n d e r th o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e st h e w it n e s s can s im p ly an sw er, i f he can name o n e , name h im ; i f he c a n ' t name o n e , he can s t a t e t h a t he p e r s o n a l ly ca n n o t name o n e , b u t th e q u e s t io n can be a n sw e re d ,A The W itn e s s : I c a n 't name o n e .Q M r. H o l lo w e ll : You can ' t name o n e : Didr e p o r t to you on t h a t n ig h t t h a t he was s p a t o n , on th en ig h t o f t h e 2 1 s t? Y e s o r no?
H e a rin g on M o tio n E’o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 323A
A N ot to my k n o w le d g e , n o .Q Were t h e r e any a r r e s t s , I a s k you a g a i n , o f any p e r s o n s o t h e r th a n th o s e a lo n g th e l i n e - th o s e in th e group o f m a rch e rs?MR. RAWLS: Now, Y our Honor p l e a s e , h e 'sa lr e a d y co v e re d t h a t .THE COURT: T h a t 's a lr e a d y been c o v e r e d .Q M r. H o llo w e d !; I b e l i e v e th e answ er was " N o " , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?MR. RAWLS: Y o u r H onor p le a s e —THE COURT: Y o u 'v e a lr e a d y asked th eq u e s t io n , h e 's a lr e a d y answ ered i t , and no p u rp o se c o u ld be s e rv e d by g o in g o v e r t h a t a g a i n .MR, HOLLOWELL: I d i d n ' t r e c o l l e c t w h e th e r I h a d . THE COURT: T h a t was th e o c c a s io n w here Ihad m is u n d e rs to o d y o u r d a t e .MR. HOLLOWELL: A l l r i g h t , th a n k you v e ry m uch,s i r .A The W itn e s s : I s t h i s on th e S a tu r d a y n ig h t ?Q M r. H o l lo w e ll : S a tu r d a y n i g h t , th e 2 1 s t?THE COURT: I h ave s u s t a in e d an o b j e c t i o nt o t h a t q u e s t io n a s b e in g r e p e t i t i o n .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l ; I b e l i e v e you s a id t h a t th e crowd was d is p e r s e d on t h a t n ig h t w ith o u t I n c i d e n t , on y o u r d i r e c t e x a m in a tio n ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I d o n ’ t t h in k I s a id w ith o u t — t h i s crowd was d is p e r s e d — I w ould l i k e to answ er t h i s q u e s t io n and e x p la in m y s e lf .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3 24 A
Q I m ean, d id you n o t s a y t h i s ?A T h is crowd was d is p e r s e d on t h i s n ig h t as o th e r crow ds w ere by members o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D epartm ent and a l l la w e n fo rc e m e n t t h a t was a s s ig n e d to th em .Q Now, on t h e 2 4 th o f J u l y , I b e l i e v e you in d ic a t e d t h a t th e r e w ere some 40 i n d i v i d u a l s , o f w h ich 23 w ere in a l i n e , and m oving i n t h e d i r e c t i o n o f C i t y H a l l on Ja c k s o n and O g le t h o r p e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I t h i n k I t e s t i f i e d t h a t on th e 2 4 th o f t h i s month 40 m a rch e rs w ere a r r e s t e d , o f w h ich 23 w ere j u v e n i l e s .Q, I b e l i e v e t h a t ' s w hat I s a id ? T h is I s t r u e ?THE COURT: Now, so th e r e c o r d w i l l show .I s th e w it n e s s s a y in g t h a t what M r. H o l lo w e ll s a id i s t r u e o r i s th e w it n e s s s a y in g t h a t what th e w it n e s s j u s t s a id i s t r u e ? What M r. H o llo w e ll I s s a y in g i s d i f f e r e n t to what t h e w itn e s s s a i d .A The W itn e s s : What I am s a y in g i s what I sayi s t r u e , Y o u r H o n or.Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : W e l l , l e t ' s s e e , maybe w e'd b e t t e r c l e a r i t u p : T h e re were 40 i n th e g rou p o f th e s o - c a l l e d m a r c h e r s , o f w h ich 23 w ere u n d e r 21 y e a r s o f a g e ?A I t h i n k y o u r s ta te m e n t was —Q W e l l , I 'm a s k in g th e q u e s t io n now, i s t h i s c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t , 40 o f w h ich 23 w ere j u v e n i l e s .Q, A bou t w hat tim e o f day was t h i s ?A T h is was 1 0 :5 5 P . M»Q Now, w here d id t h i s grou p le a v e from ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lir a in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 325A
A I t l e f t from S h i lo h and Mb. Z io n c h u r c h e s .Q And w h ich way d id th e y w a lk ?A E a s t on W h itney to J a c k s o n , n o r th on Ja c k s o n tow ards tow n.Q Were th e y w a lk in g In t h e s id e w a lk a r e a ?A They w e r e .Q Were th e y - Who w ere th e y b e in g le d by? Whomwere th e y b e in g le d by?A I c a n 't r e c a l l who th e y w ere le d b y .Q L e t me a s k t h i s : On e i t h e r th e n ig h t o f th e 2 1 s t , th e day o f th e 2 1 s t d u r in g th e tim e o f th e m arch w hich w e 'v e d i s c u s s e d , o r t h e n ig h t o f th e 2 4 th , d id you see any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts i n t h e m arch?THE COURT: By t h a t , do you mean i n d i v i d u a lD e fe n d a n ts ?MR. HGLLOWELL: T h a t i s c o r r e c t .A The W itn e s s : I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t andth e n e x p la in m y s e l f , Y o u r H o n or.THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .A The W itn e s s : The answ er i s , n o , I d id n o tsee them i n th e m a rch , b u t I saw D r . W. G . A nderson -Q MT. H o l lo w e l l : When?A The same n ig h t -Q W hich n ig h t ?A On th e 2 4 th .Q W here?A At t h e —
H ea rin g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 326A
THE COURT: L e t him answ er th e q u e s t io n , M r.H o l l o w e l l .MR. HOLLOWELL: I 'm t r y i n g t o , s i r .THE COURT: I n s t e a d o f i n t e r r u p t i n g him bys a y i n g , "w hen, w e r e " . You h a v e a lr e a d y c o v e re d th e w h ole t h i n g in y o u r o r i g i n a l q u e s t io n and l e t h im , g iv e him h i s o p p o r t u n it y to answ er y o u r q u e s t io n ; and t h e n , I f I t i s n ’ t a d e q u a te , w e ' l l g e t th e a n sw e r. B ut t r y n o t to i n t e r r u p t him so m uch. Go a h e a d .A The W itn e s s : I saw D r . A nderson and h i sp a r ty o f , I t h in k th e R e v . D r . M a rtin L u th e r K in g was i n t i l l s p a r t y ; I saw Bo Ja c k s o n i n th e v i c i n i t y , when th e s e crowds o f 3 - t o 4 ,0 0 0 w ere r a n t in g and r a v i n g , a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f Ja c k s o n and O g le t h o r p e , b e fo r e we marched in t h e r e t o q u e l l t h i s . They w ere t h e r e h u r l in g I n s u l t s , c u r s in g u s , I n v i t i n g us down t h e r e , c a l l i n g u s " p a l e - f a c e d s o n - o f - a - b i t c h e s " , and o th e r v u lg a r la n g u a g e , s u c h as " s o n s - o f - b i t c h e s " ; a l l o f t h e s e i n s t a n c e s , u n t i l we went i n . And I a s k e d , a s D r . W. G . A nderson d ro v e b y , 1 s a id to h im , I s a id "G e t o u t and l e t ' s j o i n th em , D o c t o r " . And he went on ab ou t h i s w ay.And t h e n , a t t h a t tim e we e n te r e d H a rle m , where we w ere a b u s e d , throw ed a t , h i t a t , s p i t a t , c u s s e d a t , and every o t h e r way t h a t anybody c o u ld be d o n e; and in o r d e r f o r us t o move t h i s mob, t o move t h i s t e n s io n from one p l a c e , to d is p e r s e I t , and t h e s e p e o p le come in h o l l e r i n g f o r t h e s e p e o p le t o r e t u r n to S h i l o h , r e t u r n to th e c h u r c h e s , a s t h e s e r o c k s , l i k e m o rta r s h e l l s , w ere p o p p in g i n t h e s t r e e t , and
H e a rin g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 327A
h i t t i n g t h e s e p e o p le up s id e o f t h e head and i n th e c h e s t ; and b e in g s p a t upon and t h r e a te n e d w ith g e s t u r e s . And th e s e men n e v e r b ro k e t h a t l i n e and t h a t ' s th e re a so n th e r e w ere no a r r e s t s , b e c a u s e we k e p t i t in l i n e , t h e s e men k e p t t h e l i n e a s th e y w ere i n s t r u c t e d t o do and r e s t o r e d p e ace and q u ie t a s b e s t we c o u ld to th e H arlem D i s t r i c t o f A lb a n y on t h a t n i g h t .MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, i f I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I move t h a t th e answ er be s t r i c k e n as n o t r e s p o n s iv e to th e q u e s t io n w h ich was a s k e d .THE COURT: W e ll , th e q u e s t io n , as I r e c a l l i t ,was w ere any o f t h e s e D e fe n d a n ts p r e s e n t ; and i f s o , w hen, and w here and what w ere th e y d o in g .MR. HOLLOWELL: T h a t 's c o r r e c t .THE COURT: And t h a t ' s what h e 's a n s w e r in g .H is answ er I s r e le v a n t and r e s p o n s iv e to t h a t q u e s t io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: H is answ er I s n o t r e l e v a n t , may I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , as r e l a t e s to what t h e s e D e fe n d a n ts w ere d o in g , and th o s e w ere t h e o n ly ones t h a t I h ave r e f e r r e d t o . Y o u r Honor asked th e q u e st i o n , as I r e c o l l e c t , am I r e f e r r i n g to t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r D e fe n d a n ts i n d i v i d u a l l y , and I w ould su b m it t h a t a l l o f t h i s lo n g t i r a d e was n o t r e s p o n s iv e and I move t h a t I t be s t r i c k e n - e v e r y t h in g a f t e r "saw D r .Anderson t h e r e and I asked him t o j o i n me and he d ro v e o f f - a s k t h a t t h a t be s t r i c k e n from th e r e c o r d .MR. RAWLS: H is e x p l a n a t io n , Y o u r Honorp l e a s e s , i s g iv e n to e x p la in h i s p o s i t i o n t h a t D r .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 328a
A nderson d i d n ' t c a r e what happened to t h e p o l i c e o f f i c e r s t h e r e ; and t h a t ' s th e re a s o n th e C h ie f went i n t o d e t a i l and e x p la in e d to th e C o u rt what th e s i t u a t i o n was t h a t D r . A nderson saw .THE COURT: W e l l , as I I n t e r p r e t h i s answ ernow, l e t ' s g e t I t s t r a i g h t , I d o n 't want to be u n f a i r to D r . A n d e rso n , I d o n 't want t o be u n f a i r t o th e C h i e f , I d o n 't want to be u n f a i r to c o u n s e l . As I i n t e r p r e t th e a n sw e r, h i s answ er was t h a t D r . A nderson was p r e s e n t , and you asked what D r . A nderson d id o r d id n o t do o r any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts . H is te s t im o n y i s t h a t D r . A n d erson was p r e s e n t and t h i s was th e s i t u a t i o n as he has d e s c r ib e d , and he asked D r . Anderson to a s s i s t h im , to go w ith him I b e l i e v e was h i s p h r a s e , to t r y to q u e l l th e s i t u a t i o n ; and t h a t D r . A nderson d id n o t do t h a t o r d e c l in e d to do s o . Now, t h a t ' s t h e way I I n t e r p r e t h i s a n sw e r.MR. HOLLOWELL: May I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , he d i d n ' t sa y a n y th in g ab ou t a s k in g D r . A nderson to go w ith him to q u e l l a n y t h in g . He s a id t h a t he asked D r . A n d e rs o n , he s a i d , to " l e t ' s j o i n th e m " . I b e l i e v e t h e s e a r e t h e e x a c t re m a rk s .THE COURT: As I s a y , I was p l a c i n g myI n t e r p r e t a t i o n on t h e m eaning o f I t , a n d , as I s a y ,I d o n 't w ant t o be u n f a i r . I f t h a t i s n o t a c o r r e c t i n t e r p r e t a t i o n , I w ant t h a t c l a r i f i e d . I was i n t e r p r e t i n g t h a t as m eaning t h a t he asked him t o go w ith him to q u e l l t h e s i t u a t i o n . Su ppose you c l a r i f y what you m eant by t h a t .
H ea rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 329A
A The W itn e s s : T h a t ’ s e x a c t l y what I m e a n t,Y our H o n or. He slow ed down as he p a sse d t h e i n t e r s e c t i o n , and I asked him to j o i n m e, as we w ere g o in g down i n th e r e to q u e l l t h i s and do t h e b e s t we co u ld to r e s t o r e .t h e p e a c e and q u ie t b a c k t o t h e C i t y , to p r e v e n t any f u r t h e r o r any v io le n c e o r any more a c t i v i t y ; and th e n he d ro v e on e a s t on O g le th o r p e .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : How do you know t h e r e were from 2 - to 4 ,0 0 0 p e o p le in t h a t g e n e r a l v i c i n i t y ?A I t was my e s t im a t e .Q On th e c o r n e r s , you sa y In th e v i c i n i t y o f th ec o r n e r s ?A I t was my e s t im a t e , as i t was a l o t o f o t h e r p e o p le who w ro te t h i s b u s in e s s u p ; and my e s t im a t e th e r e was betw een 2 - and 4 ,0 0 0 p e o p le g a th e r e d in t h e b lo c k betw een O g le th o r p e and Ja c k s o n and Ja c k s o n and H ig h la n d and W h itn e y , b a c k down i n t h a t a r e a .Q You m ean, w it h in a r a d iu s o f a 3 ~ b lo ck a r e a ?A A r a d iu s o f one o r maybe I f b l o c k s .Q Now, w h ich b lo c k s ?A As I jo is t t e s t i f i e d t o , th e b lo c k from Ja c k s o n - from O g le th o r p e t o H ig h la n d and p r o b a b ly h a l f o f th e b lo c k from H ig h la n d to W h itn e y .Q S o , from t h e a l l e y j u s t s o u th o f H ig h la n d to O g le th o rp e on J a c k s o n , ab o u t a b lo c k and a h a l f , t h e r e w ere some, you s a y , 3~ t o 4 ,0 0 0 p e o p le ?A 2 - to 4 ,0 0 0 - I ' d l i k e to - 2 - t o 4 ,0 0 0 .Q 2 - t o 4 ,0 0 0 p e o p le ?
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 33 OA
A I n my e s t im a t io n .Q Now, th e o f f i c e r s , you s a y , w ere i n th e s t r e e t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q In t h e m id d le o f th e s t r e e t ?A T h a t 1s c o r r e c t .Q Where d id th e l i n e o f th e 100- and - n o , o f t h e40, w alk u n t i l th e y w ere s to p p e d ?A T h is was a f t e r t h e s e p e o p le w ere p la c e d u n d era r r e s t , A t t o r n e y .Q, Oh, you mean a f t e r th e y were p la c e d u n d e r a r r e s t ?A L e t me e x p la in m y s e lf , Y o u r H o n or.THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .A The W itn e s s ; T h ese p e o p le , when th e y l e f t th e c h u r c h , th e w h ole c h u rc h e s em p tied and l i k e a. s u c t i o n , come and f o l lo w e d . When th e y c r o s s e d O g le t h o r p e , 40 p e o p le c r o s s e d O g le th o r p e and c o n tin u e d on t h e i r w ay. The r e s t o f th e s e p e o p le s ta y e d in t h i s a r e a , h o o t in g , s h o u t in g , h o l l e r i n g , I n s u l t i n g , c u s s i n g . And f o r t h i s , a f t e r t h e s e p e o p le w ere p la c e d u n d e r a r r e s t , we went b a c k down and i t became su ch an u r g e n t n e e d , t h a t f o r th e f i r s t tim e we e n te re d H arlem w it h a l l o f o u r p e r s o n n e l t o q u ie t t h i s p l a c e , to s e e t h a t p e a c e and o r d e r c o u ld go a h e a d , t o where p e o p le c o u ld c o n t in u e ab ou t t h e i r b u s i n e s s , w here c a r s c o u ld u s e t h i s s t r e e t to come o u t , r a t h e r th a n be h a r a s s e d , c u s s e d and b e a t on t h e s id e o f c a r s o f p e o p le t r y in g to u s e t h i s p a r t o f to w n . And in d o in g s o , we moved in t o t h i s s e c t i o n . And in d o in g s o , W yatt Tee W alk e r and o th e r members o f t h i s A lb a n y Movement and a s s o c i a t e s o f t h e
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 331A
A lbany M ovem ent, a f t e r we g o t down t h e r e and w ere b e in g b a rra g e d w it h t h e s e r o c k s and b o t t l e s and b e in g h i t and s p a t upon and c u s s e d a t , th e y w ere o u t h e r e h o l l e r i n g f o r them to "go b a c k t o t h e c h u r c h ," "e v e ry b o d y go b a c k to th e c h u r c h " , t r y in g to keep th e p e a c e , to a id us in k e e p in g down w hat was g o in g o n , b e c a u se i t was a v e ry e x p lo s iv e s i t u a t i o n , where i f any one o f t h e s e o f f i c e r s , a f t e r b e in g h i t w ith a r o c k or b o t t l e , had s te p p e d o u t o f l i n e to h ave went i n t h e r e , th e r e w ould h ave been v i o l e n c e , t h e r e would h ave been b lo o d shed on th e s t r e e t s t h a t n i g h t , in my o p in io n .Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : D id you se e M arion Page t h a tn ig h t ? A I h a v e n 't s a id I saw M arion P a g e , n o .Q D id you s e e S l a t e r K in g t h a t n ig h t ?THE COURT: W hich n ig h t a r e you t a l k i n gab o u t ? MR. HOLLOWELL: The 2 4 th , s i r .Q S i r ?A N o.Q D id you s e e C h a r le s Jo n e s ?A N o.Q D id you s e e D r . W. G . A nderson?A On t h a t n i g h t , y e s .MR. RAWLS: Now, Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s ,know w h e th e r i t ' s s p e c i f i c o r n o t , b u t w h ich n ig h t i s c o u n s e l t a l k i n g a b o u t?THE COURT: I c l a r i f i e d t h a t a moment a g o .H e 's t a l k i n g ab o u t th e n ig h t o f J u l y 2 4 .
H e a rin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 33 2A
MR. KELLEY: The 2 4 th ? I th o u g h t he wast a l k i n g ab o u t th e 2 1 s t .MR. HOLLOWEJ.iL: We l e f t t h a t 10 m in u te s a g o . Q D id you sa y you d id o r d id n o t?A I d i d .Q Was he d o in g a n y t h in g o t h e r th a n d r i v i n g h i sc a r ? A He ap p eared to me t o be d r i v i n g h i s c a r and o b s e r v in g what was g o in g o n .Q W e l l , one n o r m a lly o b s e r v e s when he d r iv e s ?A You ask e d me what he was d o in g and I ’ ve answered y o u r q u e s t io n .Q W e l l , d id he g e t o u t o f t h e c a r ?A U n f o r t u n a t e ly he d i d n ' t .Q D id you s e e M a rtin L u th e r K in g o th e r th an in th e c a r o f D r . A n d erson ?A N o, I d i d n ' t .Q, D id you s e e R a lp h A b e rn a th y ?A I d o n 't rem em ber, r e c a l l i n g w h eth er I saw him o r n o t .Q D id you se e E l i j a h Ja c k s o n - Em anuel Ja c k s o n ?A N o, I t o l d you t h a t I saw R e v . W yatt Tee W a lk e r .Q J u s t a moment, s i r ; i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,I'm n o t a s k in g ab ou t W yatt T . W a lk e r; I 'm a s k in g ab ou t Emanuel Ja c k s o n ?A N o, I d i d n ' t s e e h im .Q D id you s e e M rs . Ruby H u rle y t h a t n ig h t ?
H earin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 333A
A You know, I w ould l i k e t o answ er t h a t w ith an e x p la n a t io n , t h a t I d i d n ' t s e e M rs . Ruby H u r le y . I d i d n ' t see — t h e p e o p le who I h a v e m e n tio n e d , th e R e v . W yatt W alk e r, I do remember s e e in g him ; I remember s e e in g o r h e a r in g th e w ords spoken by members who w ere th e r e t h a t I co u ld h e a r th e m , "Go b a c k , go b a c k to S h i l o h , go b a ck to M t, Z i o n ."Q Whom was t h i s , what p e r s o n ?A W yatt W a lk e r .Q You s a y W yatt W a lk e r , now, who e l s e ?A T h a t was th e o n ly one t o my k n o w le d g e , b u t in my c o n v e r s a t io n w it h W yatt Tee W a lk e r , he t e l l s me t h a t R ev . Andy Young and o t h e r members o f t h i s A lb a n y Movement o r a s s o c ia t e s o f th e A lb a n y Movement w ere i n th e im m e d iate v i c i n i t y , e n c o u r a g in g t h e p e o p le to go b a c k t o S h i l o h , to ce a se w here t h e r e w ould n o t be any more e r u p t io n o f v i o l e n c e .Q Now, l e t me a s k you t h i s : P r i o r to t h e tim e o fth e a r r e s t s , w ere t h e r e p e rs o n s m a rch in g i n f r o n t o f th e 60 or th e 40? Y es o r n o , C h ie f ?A I c a n ' t t e s t i f y to t h a t b e c a u s e I w a s n 't —• th e s e 40 p e o p le , t h e r e was a l a r g e group t h a t l e f t th e ch u rch b u t o n ly 40 c r o s s e d th e s t r e e t to c o n tin u e th e m arch .THE COURT: T h e n , as I u n d e rsta n d i t , youd o n ’ t know; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t .THE COURT: W e l l , j u s t s im p ly sa y " I d o n 'tknow ".
H earin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 334A
Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Were t h e o t h e r p e r s o n s t h a t you d e s c r ib e d as b e in g 3 - t o 4 ,0 0 0 in a l i n e o f m arch beh in d th e 40 t h a t w ent a c r o s s th e s t r e e t , C h ie f?A N o, th e y w asn ’ t , and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in t h a t . They w ere n o t in a m arch , th e y w ere i n a mob, com ing up b o th s id e s o f t h e s t r e e t , com ing up c r i s s - c r o s s i n g a c r o s s , w here c a r s t h a t w ere t r y i n g to come o u t o f th e a re a c o u ld n o t move; w here o f f i c e r s had to go down and move them away, so p e o p le o f b o th r a c e s , w h ite and N e g r o , c o u ld come o u t w ith t h e i r ca r ’s and move t h e i r c a r s o u t o f th e a r e a , b e ca u se we had f e a r f o r th o s e p e o p le who were e n g u lfe d In t h i s mass and c o u l d n 't move f o r th e m asses o f p e o p le t h a t were c r i s s - c r o s s i n g In t h a t s t r e e t .Q Where w ere th e y c r i s s - c r o s s i n g , C h ie f?A R u n n in g from one s id e o f t h e s t r e e t to t h e o t h e r .Q W here? I s a y , w here?A In J a c k s o n , i n th e b lo c k in f r o n t o f th e T r a ilw a y s bus s t a t i o n , from O g le th o r p e on Ja c k s o n and on Ja c k s o n to H ig h la n d .Q How c o u ld th e y c r i s s - c r o s s when th e r e was a l i n e o f o f f i c e r s ru n n in g from t h a t p o in t a l l th e way on b o th s i d e s , w h ich l i n e s w ere n o t b ro k en ?A The l i n e was n o t down th e r e a t t h a t t im e .B ecau se o f t h i s s i t u a t i o n w h ich e x i s t e d , t h i s i s th e re a so n we went i n t h e r e t o r e s t o r e th e p la c e b a c k as c l o s e to n orm al as we c o u ld .Q Now, was t h i s b e fo r e o r a f t e r th e l i n e o f m arch had re a ch e d Ja c k s o n and O g le th o r p e ?
H earin g on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 335A
A T h is was a f t e r t h e l i n e o f m arch had been a r r e s te d and p la c e d i n j a i l .Q L e t me s e e i f I u n d e r s ta n d : th e l i n e o f m arch , th e s e 40 had gon e o n , th e y had been d ir e c t e d I n t o th e c e n te r — MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , t h a t ' sr e p e t i t i o u s , T h a t 's a lr e a d y been gone o v e r 2 o r 3 t im e s .MR. HOLLOWELL: M r. Raw ls d o e s n 't know what I have I n m in d ,MR. RAWLS: I f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , I a s k t h a tc o u n s e l a d d r e s s h i s rem arks t o th e C o u r t , and I make th e p o in t t h a t t h a t m a tte r h as been gone o v e r I n d e t a i l 2 o r 3 t i m e s , and I j u s t d o n 't t h in k t h a t th e q u e s t io n o u g h t t o be p e r m itte d to be a s k e d , and I make t h a t p o i n t . I sa y I t i s s im p ly r e p e t i t i o u s ,MR. HOLLOWELL: I f th e C o u rt p le a s e —THE COURT: W e l l , I , o f c o u r s e , d o n 't knowwhat h e 's g o in g to a s k . I m y s e lf t h in k i t ' s been gone o v e r en o u g h , b u t I 'm g o in g to a llo w th e q u e s t io n .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Thank y o u . The l i n e o f m a r c h e r s , th e 40 , had c r o s s e d o r r a t h e r had been sto p p e d a t O g l e t h o r p e ,40 had c r o s s e d o v e r and b een a r r e s t e d I n th e p r o c e s s and ro u ted on to th e j a i l , i s t h a t c o r r e c t , b e fo r e th e o f f i c e r s went s o u th on O g le th o r p e to d is p e r s e th e cro w d , i s t h i s c o r r e c t ?A T h ese p e o p le w ere s to p p e d , t o th e b e s t o f my know ledge, i n th e v i c i n i t y o f th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f Ja c k s o n and Broad and had been p la c e d In j a i l ; and th e n th e
H earing on M otion B’o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 336A
s it u a t i o n becam e so e r u p te d and so v i o l e n t and so in a mob a c t i o n , in th e b lo c k from O g le th o r p e t o H ig h la n d , th a t i t n e c e s s i t a t e d e v e r y one o f my men b e in g c a l l e d o u t , back t h e r e , w it h o n ly p e r s o n n e l i n th e o f f i c e ; and everyb o d y was p u t in l i n e and in s t r u c t e d as to what we would d o . And we went i n t o t h e a r e a to g a in th e p e a ce b a c k down t h e r e , to r e s t o r e i t .Q So t h a t , from th e p o in t o f a r r e s t , you had to t r a v e l a b l o c k , w h ich i s th e b lo c k from Broad b a c k to O g le th o r p e , b e fo r e you g o t i n t o th e a r e a w here t h e s e p e o p le were t h a t you c la im w ere d o in g t h e s e t h in g s ? R ig h t ?A T h a t 's n o t c o r r e c t and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in i t . Once t h e s e 40 m arch ers o r how many m arch ers t h e r e were were a r r e s t e d , th e r e was a s s ig n e d to them 4 o r 5 o r 6 o f f i c e r s to t r a n s p o r t them ; and f o r t h e n e c e s s i t y and t h e need o f a l l t h e o f f i c e r s b e in g a t t h i s i n t e r s e c t i o n o f O g le th o r p e and J a c k s o n , ev e ry b o d y was d e t a i l e d and ran on d o u b le tim e down t h e r e , i n d o u b le tim e m a rch , to th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f O g le th o rp e and J a c k s o n , w here th e y were im m e d ia te ly l in e d up on e a ch s id e o f t h e s t r e e t , I n s t r u c t e d as to what we w ere to do; and "u n d e r no c ir c u m s t a n c e s , r e g a r d le s s o f xd ieth er you a re h i t , s p a t u p o n , c u s s e d a t , y o u 'r e down h e r e f o r one m otive and t h a t ' s t o d is p e r s e t h i s crow d, s t a y in th e l i n e , move th e crowd o u t , d o n 't b r e a k t h i s l i n e u n d er any c ir c u m s t a n c e s ." And t h i s i s e x a c t l y what we d i d .0. Now, how a r e you g o in g to d is p e r s e a crowd by s t a y in g i n a l i n e C h ie f?
H earing on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 337A
A I t h i n k th e a c t io n sp e a k s f o r i t s e l f , t h a t th e crowd was d is p e r s e d .Q Y o u 'r e n o t a n s w e rin g th e q u e s t io n , s i r ?A We d id t h i s - I would l i k e to e x p la in i t , Y o u rHonor. THE COURT: D id you d is p e r s e them ?A The W it n e s s : We d id d is p e r s e th e crowd andth e re a so n we p u t t h e s e o f f i c e r s i n two l i n e s was to keep i t where no one c o u ld e n g u l f u s , t h a t one s id e was h e re w ith a l l th e p e o p le a g a in s t th e b u i l d in g s and m o vin g; t h i s s id e th e same way, w here th e y c o u ld n o t e n g u l f u s and s e p a r a te u s , w here th e y c o u ld c u t u s o f f from one g rou p to a n o th e r g ro u p ; and we moved t h e s e p e o p le w ith m o to rc y c le s in f r o n t o f u s , p u s h in g th e p e o p le b a c k , and w ith v o ic e commands m o v in g; and d u r in g t h i s tim e th e b o t t l e s and th e s to n e s and th e a b u s iv e la n g u a g e o f b e in g s p i t a t , cu ssed a t , t h r owed a t and l i l t , we moved t h e s e p e o p le down.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, how many o f f i c e r s do you know t h a t w ere s t r u c k w it h a r o c k o r any o t h e r ite m ?A T h e re w ere two o f f i c e r s t h a t w ere h i t d i r e c t l y . Many were s p a t t e r e d w it h c r a s h in g g l a s s , and was th e news m edia and o th e r p e o p le who w ere in t h a t a r e a .Q Do you know anybody t h a t th rew a r o c k o r a b o t t le ?A Do I know them p e r s o n a l ly ?Q D id you a r r e s t anybody?A N o, and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in th e s i t u a t i o n . I t was b e c a u s e -
H earin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 338A
q E x c u s e m e, s i rA - th e o f f i c e r s had -THE COURT: You s e e now, w e 'r e g o in g o v e ri t a l l o v e r a g a i n , t h e same t h in g t h a t has been co v e re d p r e v i o u s l y . Y o u ’ ve a lr e a d y asked him a b o u t w h e th e r anybody was a r r e s t e d on J u l y 24 f o r r o c k th ro w in g -MR. HOLLOWELL: No s i r , th e 2 1 s t , n o t th e 2 4 th .We have n o t b een o v e r t h a t .THE COURT: You h a v e n 't been o v e r I t on th e2 4 th ? MR. HOLLOWELL: THE COURT:The W itn e s s : THE COURT;
We h ave n o t .A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .I would l i k e to e x p la in m y s e l f . Go ahead and answ er th e q u e s t io nhe a s k e d .A The W itn e s s ; I would l i k e to answ er t h a tw ith a no and g i v e my e x p la n a t io n as to w hy.THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .A The W itn e s s : As I s t a t e d , t h e s e o f f i c e r swere t o l d t o h o ld t h e l i n e , n o t to b r e a k th e l i n e o r p u t a l i n k t h a t was bx,oken In t h i s l i n e in any w ay, r e g a r d le s s o f w h ether th e y w ere h i t w ith b o t t l e s , s p i t a t , cu s s e d a t , abused o r ro ck e d o r any o t h e r w ay, n o t to b r e a k t h i s c h a in and n o t to b r e a k t h i s U n e , w h ich we had p u t i n t o t h i s are a to move t h e s e p e o p le and r e s t o r e b a c k t o a s n e a r norm al a s we c o u ld .Q. M r. H o l lo w e l l ; D id you e v e r w r it e o u t t h e s e in s t r u c t io n s ?
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A N o, t h e i n s t r u c t i o n s w ere g iv e n by word o f mouth to th e p e o p le . B e fo r e we moved o u t , th e y had b een I n s t r u c t e d p r io r to t h i s , r o l l - c a l l t r a i n i n g . P r io r t o t h e s e p e o p le , th e s e S t a t e P a tro lm e n b e in g im p o rte d in h e r e , th e y w ere b r ie fe d and s c h o o le d as t o what we e x p e c te d o f th em . They were t o ld t h a t we d id n o t e x p e c t any v io le n c e o r to u s e any v io le n c e u n le s s i t was a c a s e o f h ave t o .MR, HOLLOWELL; May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I asked th e q u e s t io n , d id he e v e r w r it e t h i s o u t ; and th e r e s t o f i t i s n o t r e s p o n s iv e .THE COURT: W e ll , h e 's e x p la in in g how th eo r d e r s w e re , t h a t i t was n o t w r it t e n b u t h e 's e x p l a i n in g how th e y w ere i n s t r u c t e d .Q. M r. H o l lo w e l l : Was th e r e any b u l l e t i n e v e r is s u e d by y o u r o f f i c e t o any o f t h e s e l60~odd p e rs o n s th a t were u n d e r y o u r command?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t w ith a n o , and e x p la in i t , a s I h a v e b e f o r e , t h a t t h i s was done by word o f m outh, i n d i v i d u a l l y , i n fi*o n t o f a l l o f t h e s e p e o p le —THE COURT: And no o t h e r way?The W itn e s s : And no o t h e r medium.THE COURT; Th en , i t would n o t be n e c e s s a r yto a s k him a b o u t w h e th e r i t was done I n o t h e r w a y s .He s a y s i t was done by word o f mouth and o n ly t h a t w ay.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, I presum e t h a t th e same re a s o n in g w h ich you h a v e p r e v io u s ly g iv e n a c c o u n ts f o r th e f a c t t h a t t h e r e was no p e rso n a r r e s t e d f o r th ro w in g a r o c k
H earing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 340A
or th ro w in g a b o t t l e o r c u r s in g an o f f i c e r ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A As I h a v e s t a t e d , t h e re a s o n s w ere —Q I s a y , I presum e t h a t th e same r e a s o n s p e r t a in ?A T h a t * s c o r r e c t .Q Have you a t any tim e in y o u r p o l i c e c a r e e re v e r had one o f y o u r o f f i c e r s s p a t on and d i d n 't do a n y th in g a b o u t i t , e x c e p t on t h e o c c a s io n w h ich y o u 'v e t e s t i f i e d t h e s e t h in g s happ ened?A I w ould l i k e to e x p la in m y s e lf on t h a t .Q, Y e s o r no?A Have I e v e r had an o f f i c e r - r e p h r a s e i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I w i l l l e t i t be r e p e a t e d .THE COURT; He asked you w h e th e r you hade v e r a t any t i m e , any p r e v io u s t im e , had an o f f i c e r s p a t u p o n , when you d i d n ' t h ave th e p e rso n a r r e s t e d , p r e v io u s t o t h i s . T h a t was th e q u e s t io n ,MR. RAWLS: Y o u r Honor p l e a s e , we co n ten dt h a t w h e th e r he h as o r n o t i s e n t i r e l y i l l e g a l and i r r e l e v a n t .THE COURT: I t h in k i t I s t o o . A re youo b j e c t i n g t o i t , w h e th e r he had e v e r a llo w e d i t b e fo r e ? MR. RAWLS: T h a t 's r i g h t .THE COURT: I t h in k th e o b je c t i o n i s g o o d .I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .MR, HOLLOWELL: I f I m ig h t a d d re s s m y s e lf to i t , s i r ?THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .
H earing on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 34IA
MR. HOLLOWELL: I t h in k i t i s im p o r ta n t to know. T h is i s th e c h i e f law e n fo rce m e n t o f f i c e r who h a s g iv e n many o p in io n s , xtfho h as had much t r a i n i n g , who has been an o f f i c e r many y e a r s ; and who h a s I n d ic a t e d what h i s d u t i e s a r e , among them b e in g t h a t to a r r e s t f o l k s who b r e a c h o r d in a n c e s ; and I — and we a l l know i t i s e le m e n ta r y i n law t h a t to s p i t upon a p e rso n I s a b a t t e r y ; and I am t r y i n g to a s c e r t a i n from t h i s C h ie f w h eth er o r n o t he h a s d u r in g h i s c o u r s e o f tim e as an o f f i c e r had h i s o f f i c e r s s p a t u p o n , w ith o u t th e r e h a v in g been some a r r e s t s m ade, o t h e r th a n i n c o n n e c t io n , a s he t e s t i f i e d , w ith t h i s o c c a s io n .I t ' s a s im p le q u e s t io n , w h ich he can answ er y e s o r n o . THE COURT: Y e s , I ’ m su re he c o u ld .MR. HOLLOWELL: And as to p o l i c y , I t h in k t h i s would be im p o r t a n t .THE COURT: I t h in k he c o u ld answ er i t y e so r n o , b u t I d o n ’ t t h in k i t w ould be m a t e r ia l i n any r e s p e c t , as to what happened on any p r e v io u s o c c a s io n , w h eth er he e v e r a llo w e d i t b e f o r e . What went o n , on th e o c c a s io n s u n d e r I n v e s t i g a t i o n I s r e l e v a n t . I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : A l l r i g h t , d id th e p e rs o n s who were a r r e s t e d do a n y t h in g o th e r th a n - I ’ m t a l k i n g ab ou t th e 40 s o - c a l l e d m arch ers - w a lk down t h e s t r e e t , were s to p p e d , a r r e s t e d , d ir e c t e d on to th e s t a t i o n ; th e y d id n o th in g e l s e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
H e a r in g on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727
A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q T h is red l i g h t t h a t you in d ic a t e d on th e to p o f one o f y o u r p o l i c e v e h i c l e s had been damaged a t one t im e , w here was i t a t t h e tim e t h a t t h i s a l l e g e d damage was done?A I t was i n t h e v i c i n i t y o f M t. Z io n and S h i lo h c h u r c h e s ,Q M t. Z io n and S h i lo h ?A Y e s .Q And I b e l i e v e you s a id some r e a r - v ie w m ir r o ron some o t h e r c a r was damaged i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t . I t was i n th e v i c i n i t y o f T h ir d Id o k e e .Q O f w here?A T h ir d K L o k ee .Q Where i s t h a t ?A T h a t 's lo c a t e d in th e s o u th o f tow n, I b e l i e v e on A l l e n , I f I 'm c o r r e c t .Q, T h a t 's s e v e r a l b lo c k s removed from M t. Z io n ,i s i t n o t?A S e v e r a l . On d i f f e r e n t o c c a s io n s .Q Has th e r e been any r e p o r t o f damage to p r i v a t e p r o p e r ty in c o n n e c t io n w ith th e a c t i v i t i e s on t h e r i g h t o f th e 2 4 th , t o y o u r know ledge?A Not to my k n o w le d g e .Q. Do you h ave know ledge o f any r e p o r t s o f any damage to p r i v a t e p r o p e r ty on any o f th e o th e r d a y s o r n ig h t s on w h ich th e r e were a l l e g e d l y - on w h ich th e r e w ere m a rc h e s , to w h ich you have t e s t i f i e d ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3^3A
A I w ish t o - y o u 'v e r e fr e s h e d my memory h e r e , A t t o r n e y , and I w ould l i k e t o r e s t a t e t h a t on th e n ig h t o f t h i s 2 4 th , t h a t we d id have c o m p la in ts from p r o p e r ty owners a t th e I n t e r s e c t i o n o f O g le th o r p e and Ja c k s o n ; on th e s o u t h e a s t c o r n e r t h e r e ’ s a b o a r d in g h o u s e , w h ich had p e o p le g a th e r e d up around a l l th e f r o n t y a r d , w here th e p e o p le c o u ld n ’ t g e t i n and o u t ; and th e p e o p le d id c a l l and p e r s o n a l ly asked me a b o u t i t th e n e x t d a y ; t h a t he had t r i e d e v e ry way t o move t h e s e p e o p le ; and r a t h e r th a n to have t r o u b le and r a t h e r th a n t o have i n j u r y t o som ebody, he was a s k in g me my o p in io n a b o u t p u t t in g fe n c e s up around t h i s p r o p e r t y . And we so i n s t r u c t e d t h a t he had th e r i g h t to p u t a fe n c e around h i s p r o p e r ty to keep th e p e o p le from g a t h e r in g around h i s f r o n t s te p s and a l l o v e r h i s y a r d .That was on t h a t n i g h t .MR. HOLLDWELL: Now, i f I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I move t h a t th e w h ole re s p o n se be s t r i c k e n , in asm u ch a s i t i s n o t r e s p o n s iv e to th e q u e s t io n a s k e d .I asked h im , a s I r e c o l l e c t , w h eth er o r not he had any know ledge o f any p r o p e r ty dam age, and th e r e h as been no te s t im o n y t h a t he has g iv e n r e s p o n s iv e t o t h a t ,MR. RAWLS: I b e l i e v e t h e C h ie f s a i d , w ithr e f e r e n c e t o one c o m p la in t , who d id have p r o p e r ty dam age, Y o u r Honor p l e a s e .THE COURT: I , o f c o u r s e , h e ard a l l o f t h a t .You se e th e p ro b le m , h e re a g a in we g e t i n t o th e m eaning o f a te r m . I g a t h e r t h a t he had a c o m p la in t
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 344a
from a p r o p e r ty owner ab o u t t h e crow ds com ing on h i s p r o p e r t y . Now, w h e th e r t h a t ’ s p r o p e r ty damage In th e s e n s e t h a t c o u n s e l i s u s in g t h e te rm , o r in th e s e n s e t h a t th e w it n e s s I s ansx’/erin g th e q u e s t io n , dep en d s upon what I s m eant by p r o p e r ty dam age.H av in g p e o p le come upon y o u r p r o p e r ty and tra m p le on I t to th e e x t e n t w here you f e e l l i k e y o u 'v e g o t to a s k t h e P o l i c e D epartm ent f o r p e r m is s io n to p u t up a f e n c e , one p e rso n m ig h t t h in k t h a t ' s p r o p e r ty dam age and a n o th e r p e rso n m ig h t n o t . B ut a t any r a t e .I w i l l a l lo w t h e answ er t o s ta n d f o r w h a te v e r I t ' s w o r th . Now, c o u n s e l may sa y t h a t ' s n o t p r o p e r ty damage b u t th e C h ie f a p p a r e n tly c o n s id e r s t h a t i t I s .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l ; But t h i s i s a l l t h a t you have any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t , C h ie f?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q From th e 1 2 th o f Decem ber to d a t e , as a m a tte r o f f a c t ?A N ot a l l o f th e p r o p e r ty damage b e c a u s e we had o th e r c a r s in ju r e d and damaged by r o c k s from Decem ber up u n t i l t h i s d a t e .Q, In th e v i c i n i t y •—A — T h a t w a s n 't th e o n ly in s t a n c e o f p r o p e r ty dam age, as you so s p e a k , and 1 want t h a t to go i n th e r e c o r d , t h a t we have had o th e r p r o p e r ty damage to p o l i c e c a r s d u r in g t h i s p e r io d o f t im e .Q I 'm s a y in g on a p a r t i c u l a r d a t e , when t h e r e was a m arch as you c a l l i t , can you nane me one t im e , o th e r th a n th e two i n c i d e n t s w h ich you have m en tion e d ?
H ea rin g on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 34 5A
A N ot a t p r e s e n t I c a n ’ t .THE COURT: T h a t i s , you mean by t h a tp r o p e r ty o f p r i v a t e i n d i v i d u a l s ?MR, HOLLOWELL: P r o p e r ty o f p r i v a t e i n d i v i d u a l s o r even o f th e p o l i c e .THE COURT: W e ll , t h a t ’ s th e re a s o n I th o u g h tI ' d b e t t e r make i t c l e a r b e c a u se he h a s j u s t s a id t h a t th e y had p o l i c e p r o p e r ty damage on o t h e r o c c a s i o n s . A The W itn e s s : On o t h e r o c c a s io n s .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , I had j u s t asked him when and he s a id he d i d n ’ t remember a n y .THE COURT; A l l I am t r y i n g to do i s to a v o idc o n f u s io n , ab o u t th e m eaning o f th e q u e s t io n and th e m eaning o f th e a n sw e r. As I g a t h e r i t , now th e te s t im o n y I s - and t h e re a scn I re v ie w i t i s b e c a u se t h e r e ’ s no re a s o n f o r us to have any m is u n d e r s ta n d in g ab o u t i t , t h a t h i s te s t im o n y I s t h a t on th e n ig h t o f J u l y 2 4 , t h a t th e o n ly c o m p la in t from p r i v a t e I n d i v i d u a ls a b o u t p r o p e r ty dam age, u s in g th e term l o o s e l y as we h a v e , i s from t h i s i n d i v i d u a l who co m p lain ed ab o u t p e o p le com ing on h i s p r o p e r t y , and in q u ir e d ab ou t w h eth er he c o u ld p u t up fe n c e s to keep them o f f . B u t he t e s t i f i e s t h a t on o th e r o c c a s io n s th e r e h as been damage t o P o l i c e D ep artm en t p r o p e r t y .Now, X t h in k t h a t t h a t i s th e s i t u a t i o n , as I u n d e rs ta n d i t . Have I s t a t e d i t f a i r l y , c o u n s e l?MR. HOLLOWELL: 1 d o n ’ t t h in k t h a t Y o u r Honor has q u it e s t a t e d i t as i t has been t e s t i f i e d t o .
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 346a
THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .MR. HOLLOWELL: To th e e x t e n t , t o e x te n d and in c lu d e t h a t t h e r e h a s been dam age on to p o f one o f th e s e red t h i n g s on to p o f one v e h i c l e s and a r e a r -v ie w m ir r o r .THE COURT: W e l l , I u n d e rsto o d him to sayt h a t t h e r e had been o t h e r damage to p o l i c e v e h i c le s on o th e r o c c a s io n s ?A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t .MR, HOLLOWELL: We want to know w h eth er o r n o t i t was on a d a y o r a n ig h t when t h e r e had been one o f th e s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s t r a t io n s , an d , i f s o , w h ere .A The W it n e s s : T h e se d e m o n s tr a tio n s wereduring th e m arch es and d u r in g th e c o n g r e g a t in g o f a l l o f these 2 ,0 0 0 to 3 ,0 0 0 p e o p le g a th e r e d a t M t. Z io n and S h i lo h fo r t h e i r mass m e e t in g s , t h e s e c a r s w ere damaged —THE COURT: Now, th e q u e s t io n , C h i e f , i sju s t when and w hat dam age on what o c c a s io n ; t h a t ' s th e q u e s t io n .A The W itn e s s : I d o n 't remember th e e x a c t d a t e ,Your H onor, and I w o u ld n 't t r y to name th e e x a c t d a t e s .The o n ly t h in g I know i s t h a t c a r s , o u r c a r s w ere ro ck ed on 2 o r 3 o c c a s io n s ; n o t o n ly o u r c a r s b u t c a r s b e lo n g in g to o th e r law e n fo rc e m e n t a g e n c ie s t h a t w ere s t a t io n e d t h e r e , were r o c k e d , i do n o t know th e e x a c t d a t e , so I c o u ld t e l l you th e e x a c t d a te and t h e e x a c t h o u r .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : What c a r ?A Our d e t e c t i v e s ' c a r was h i t .
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3^7A
Q When?A T h a t I c o u l d n 't —•THE COURT: H e 's j u s t s t a t e d -Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Where w ere th e y - -THE COURT: Now, M r. H o l lo w e llr e c a l l th e e x a c t d a t e s o r th e e x a c t o c c a s io n s ; h u t he has s t a t e d as a g e n e r a l p r o p o s it io n t h a t i t h app ened. S o , I s e e no p o in t now i n g o in g b a ck and a s k in g him a g a i n , when h e 's a lr e a d y t e s t i f i e d t h a t he c a n 't rem em ber.Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Do you h ave a r e p o r t o f i t , s i r ? A I w ould h a v e to c h e c k and s e e . To th e b e s t o f by know ledge, I d o n 't know w h e th e r we do o r we d o n 't b u t I w ill s e a r c h th e f i l e s and s e e .Q I m ean, i t i s cu sto m a ry t h a t when t h e r e i s any damage t o any v e h i c l e b e lo n g in g to t h e D ep artm en t that th e re w ould b e a r e p o r t on i t , i s t h a t t r u e ?A I w ould l i k e to answ er t h i s w ith a y e s , and I th in k l a t e r on t h e s e o f f i c e r s who were i n t h e s e c a r s w i l l be used, THE COURT: In o t h e r w o rd s, you t h in k t h e r ew i l l be te s t im o n y a b o u t i t l a t e r from o t h e r s ?The W itn e s s : Y e s s i r .THE COURT: I s u g g e s t , s in c e he s a y st h e r e 's g o in g to be te s t im o n y ab ou t i t from o t h e r w itn e s s e s l a t e r , and h e 's a lr e a d y s a id t h a t he c a n n o t r e c a l l th e e x a c t d a t e s and t im e s , I s u g g e s t we p a s s on to so m e th in g e l s e .
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3^8a
MR. HOLLOWELL: I t h i n k I have one o th e r q u e s t io n , i f Y o u r Honor d o e s n ’ t mind i n c o n n e c t io n w ith t h e s e .q On t h e s e o c c a s io n s t o w h ich you make r e f e r e n c e , you don’ t know w h e th e r , w h a te v e r i t was i f i n f a c t th e r e was an ythin g t h a t h i t t h e s e a l l e g e d v e h i c l e s , was throw n by a person who was N egro o r w h it e , do you?A Y o u r H o n or, I w ould l i k e to answ er and e x p la in ?Q Yes o r No? Do y o u , y e s o r no?A Y o u r H o n o r, I w ould l i k e to answ er t h i s q u e s t io nin t h i s , t h a t I d o n ’ t , t h a t th e o f f i c e r s who w ere h i t w i l l t e s t i fy th e d a t e .THE COURT: I s y o u r answ er " n o ” t h a t youdo n o t?The W itn e s s : T h a t 's c o r r e c t , b u t th e o f f i c e r swho were t h e r e w i l l t e s t i f y ab o u t i t h e re l a t e r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, C h i e f , a f t e r t h e s e f o l k - strike th a t - As a p a r t o f y o u r d u t i e s as th e c h i e f law enforcement o f f i c e r who had some 160-od d o f f i c e r s u n d e r your j u r i s d i c t i o n , i t w ould h ave been th e d u ty f o r th e p rotection o f th o s e I n d i v i d u a l s who became p r i s o n e r s , I s that not tr u e ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q I a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t In Decem ber o f ’ 6 l , afte r th e Decem ber 16 s o - c a l l e d d e m o n s t r a t io n , you r e c e iv e d a ^ P o r t from y o u r o f f i c e r a t th e M i t c h e l l C ou n ty j a i l , in which a R o b e rt P r ic e i n d i c a t e d t h a t th e o f f i c e r th e r e
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 34 9A
in charge o f th e p r is o n s a id "You n ig g e r s a re j u s t l i k e any other n ig g e r s down h e r e " ?MR, RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p le a s e s -MR. HOLLOWELL: J u s t a moment —MR. RAWLS: W h a tev er th e man i n C a m il las a id i s i l l e g a l , i r r e l e v a n t and im m a te r ia l in t h i s c a s e . THE COURT: How c o n c e iv a b ly , M r. H o l lo w e l l ,could what an o f f i c e r m ig h t h a v e s a id in t h e j a i l in C a m il la , G e o r g ia , w here some p r is o n e r was i n c a r ce ra te d a f t e r b e in g a r r e s t e d , how c o u ld t h a t have any b e a r in g on t h e i s s u e b e fo r e us h e r e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I w ould t h a t i t would h ave a g re a t d e a l o f b e a r i n g . In th e f i r s t p l a c e , I had n o t f in is h e d t h e s t a t e m e n t .THE COURT: W e l l , w h a te v e r I t I s ,w h a t e v e r i t i s .MR. HOLLOWELL: The a c t io n s o f th e o f f i c e r s In c o n n e c tio n w it h t h e p e r s o n s a r r e s t e d , I would submit i s j u s t as im p o r ta n t to t h i s t r i a l as th e a c t io n o f th e p e r s o n s t h a t w ere a r r e s t e d and whose a c t i v i t i e s h a v e a t one tim e been r e s t r a i n e d .THE COURT: N o , th e y m ig h t be p e r t in e n t tosome o th e r l i t i g a t i o n b u t i t w ould n o t be p e r t in e n t to th e i s s u e b e fo r e m e, a s t o what tr e a tm e n t a p r is o n e r m ig h t h a v e had a t th e hands o f some law enforcem ent o f f i c e r , i f h e 's been m is t r e a t e d , a f t e r h a v in g been a r r e s t e d . T h a t c o u ld be th e b a s is o f o th e r l i t i g a t i o n o f o t h e r n a t u r e , b u t I d o n ’ t s e e how i t
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 72? 350A
co u ld have any b e a r in g on t h e q u e s t io n a t i s s u e in t h i s c a s e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I su b m it to Y o u r Honor t h a t th e w hole m a t te r o f a r r e s t by t h e P o l i c e D ep artm en t may be th e s u b j e c t o f l i t i g a t i o n w h ich i s o u t s id e th e j u r i s d i c t i o n o f t h i s C o u r t ; b u t t h a t d o e s n 't mean t h a t i t m ig h t n o t be a p p r o p r ia t e in t h i s C o u rt and I su b m it to Y o u r Honor t h a t t h e same t h in g i s tr u e on th e o t h e r s id e o f th e c o u r t ,THE COURT: What y o u 'r e g e t t i n g a t th o u g hI s s o m e th in g , a p p a r e n t ly somebody down In M i t c h e l l County s a i d , n o t a t th e t im e and n o t In c o n n e c tio n w ith any o f t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s , o r a t th e t im e any o f th e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s w ere g o in g on i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .MR. HOLLOWELL: I t h a s been - e x c u s e me —THE COURT: I ca n s e e no p e r t in e n c e to i ta t a l l . As I s a y , i t w ould h a v e g r e a t p e r t in e n c e in o th e r l i t i g a t i o n o f o t h e r n a t u r e , F o r i n s t a n c e , i f w hoever y o u ’ r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ab u sed some p r is o n e r in M i t c h e l l Cou n ty and some a c t io n w ere b ro u g h t o f any n a tu re in t h i s C o u rt o r in any o t h e r c o u r t t h a t m ig h t have j u r i s d i c t i o n o f i t , t h a t would be p e r t i n e n t ; b u t not on t h e q u e s t io n o f w hat th e s i t u a t i o n was a t th e tim e and i s now in A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , w ith r e g a r d to th e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f I m ig h t sa y s o , Y o u r H on or, t h i s o f f i c e r h a s t e s t i f i e d b r o a d ly , l o u d ly and lo n g l y th a t — i f t h e r e i s su ch a word — a b o u t e q u a l p r o -
Hearing on M o tion Fox'* P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 351A
t e c t io n o f t h e c i t i z e n s . I su b m it t h a t t h i s g o e s to the m a tte r o f e q u a l p r o t e c t i o n . T h is i s one o f th e bases f o r t h i s s u i t , a s I u n d e rs ta n d i t , t h a t th e peop le t h a t he h as —THE COURT; And i t c o u ld be th e b a s i s o f as u it - I am p re su m in g you h ave s o m e th in g th e r e t h a t could be th e b a s i s f o r a s u i t , I d o n 't know - i t c o u ld be th e b a s is o f a s u i t by w h oever t h i s i n d i v i d u a l i s th a t y o u ’ r e t a l k i n g a b o u t , a g a in s t w hoever may have abused h im , i f anybody d id ab u se h im . B u t i t ' s n o t in t h is c a s e , i t I s n o t b e fo r e me h e r e and c o u l d n 't be b e fo re me h e r e .MR. HOLLOWELL; Do I u n d e rs ta n d t h a t th e C o u rt takes th e p o s i t i o n t h a t any a c t io n on t h e p a r t o f any o f th e o f f i c e r s c o n n e c te d w it h th e a r r e s t s o f th e s o - c a l le d " d e m o n s tr a to r s " and t h e i r tr e a tm e n t w h ile in t h e i r c u s to d y h a s no r e le v a n c e t o th e I s s u e In t h i s case? THE COURT: No, I h ave n o t s a id t h a t ; I havenot r u le d t h a t and I w ould n o t r u l e t h a t . B u t what you are a s k in g now i s s o m e th in g t h a t happened to some p r i s o n e r , a f t e r he was a r r e s t e d h e re in A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , a f t e r he was p la c e d In j a i l i n M i t c h e l l County, so m e th in g t h a t happened down t h e r e , so m e th in g th a t somebody s a id down t h e r e , n o t in c o n n e c t io n w ith th e a r r e s t made i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , in c o n n e c t io n w ith th e d e m o n s tr a t io n .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 352A
MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , we do s u b m it , Y o u r H on or, th at what c o n s t i t u t e s an a r r e s t d ep en d s upon when th e in d iv id u a l comes to th e p o in t o f h a v in g been a c t u a l l y in c a r c e r a te d i n t o j a i l .THE COURT: C e r t a i n l y , and I g a th e r e d fromyour own s ta te m e n t t h a t he was a r r e s t e d in A lb a n y , G e o rg ia . He w a s n 't a r r e s t e d in M i t c h e l l C o u n ty .MR. HOLLOWELL: He was a r r e s t e d in A lb a n y ,G e o rg ia , and t r a n s f e r r e d on t o th e j a i l down th e r e in th e c u s to d y o f and u n d e r th e s u p e r v is io n o f th e same o f f i c e r , t h a t i s th e same p o l i c e d e p a r tm e n t, t h a t had made th e i n i t i a l a r r e s t .THE COURT: T h e n , based on y o u r own s ta te m e n ti t i s o b v io u s ly so m e th in g t h a t to o k p la c e a f t e r th e a r r e s t . S o , I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n . W e're n o t going in t o a n y t h in g l i k e t h a t in t h i s s u i t . T h ere are o th e r tim e s and o t h e r p la c e s when t h a t can be gone i n t o , M r. H o i l o w e l l .MR. HOLLOWELL: We h ave no f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s fo r t h i s P l a i n t i f f a t t h i s t im e .THE COURT: Then a t t h i s tim e we w i l l ta k ea re c e s s u n t i l 2 o ' c l o c k .LUNCH RECESS: 1 2 :3 0 PM t o 2 :0 0 PM - 8 -1 -6 2THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , yo u may c a l l y o u rnext w it n e s s .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I inform ed c o u n s e l t h a t t h e r e was one o t h e r q u e s t io n th a t I wanted t o a s k th e C h i e f . I t w i l l ta k e ab out iwo m in u te s .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o. 7 2 ? 353A
q M r. H o l l o w e l l ; C h ie f* I h ave j u s t a c o u p le o f questionsto a sk y o u : Do you h a v e any w ir e - t a p p in g eq uip m en t in the p o lic e d e p a rtm e n t?A I can an sw er t h a t w it h a m ost e n e r g e t ic n o .Q Was any o f t h e te s t im o n y w h ich you g av e basedupon any in fo r m a tio n o b ta in e d th r o u g h th e p r o c e s s o f w ir e tapping, so f a r a s you know?A I ' l l answ er t h a t in t h e same way w ith a v e ry energetic no .Q No f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s a t t h i s t im e .THE COURT: You may go down.MR. KELLEY: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I haves e v e ra l q u e s t io n s on r e d i r e c t e x a m in a tio n to c l a r i f y some b ro u gh t o u t on c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n .REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. KELLEY:Q C h ie f P r i t c h e t t , in c r o s s e x a m in a tio n you w ere asked whether o r n o t you w ere a u t h o r iz e d to s p e a k f o r th e Commission in m a tte r s w it h th e A lb a n y Movement: I s I t or not tru e t h a t you w ere a u t h o r iz e d to s p e a k o n ly w ith reference to p o l i c e m a t t e r s ?A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q Now, c e r t a i n p i c t u r e s h ave been e x h ib it e d t o you ^ you have exam ined t h o s e p i c t u r e s and you have r e l a t e d that you have based y o u r e s t im a t e o f th e number in crow ds°n those P ic t u r e s : I s t h a t th e o n ly b a s i s you h ave f o r y o u r estimate o f crow ds?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 72? 35̂ A
A No, i t i s n ’ t and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in t h a t . Those p ic tu r e s were ta k e n sh o w in g some o f th e crowd and some of the lo c a t io n s , b u t a l l o f th e crow ds w h ich w ere lo c a t e d all over the uptown a r e a t h a t w ere m i l l i n g , m oving a b o u t , standing and w a tc h in g i n o t h e r s e c t i o n s o f th e im m e d iate uptown a re a .Q S o , y o u r e s t im a t e s a s t o numbers a r e based a ls o on personal o b s e r v a t io n s ?A On my p e r s o n a l o b s e r v a t io n s .Q Now, you w ere a l s o ask e d w h e th e r o r n o t any parade perm its had been r e f u s e d ; Do you know w h e th e r o r not any parade p e r m its h ave been r e fu s e d ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , th e r e was no su ch e v id e n c e and no su ch q u e s t io n s answ ered or asked by th e D e fe n d a n ts ' a t t o r n e y as to w h eth er or not th e y w ere r e fu s e d any p e r m it s .THE COURT; I c a n n o t r e c a l l . I know th e r ewere q u s t io n s a b o u t p a ra d e p e r m it s . I d o n ’ t remember e x a c tly what t h e q u e s t io n w a s.MR. KELLEY: I d o n ’ t r e c a l l e i t h e r , Y o u r Honorp le a s e , b u t I t h i n k i t i s p e r t in e n t r e l a t i v e t o th e issu a n ce o r d e n i a l o f p e r m it s , and I w ould l i k e to go in to i t to e x p la in t h e p o s i t i o n o f th e C i t y as to parade p e r m it s .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p l e a s e th e C o u r t , I t h in k he would h ave to a s k him w h a t, i f a n y , in f o r m a t io n he has c o n c e r n in g p e r m it s , and n o t d i r e c t i t to him in th e Wa7 th a t he d id b e c a u s e th e n t h a t w ould be l e a d i n g .
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THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , su p p o se we do i tthat way, s i n c e I do n o t r e c a l l i t and a p p a r e n t ly counsel d o n 't a g r e e a b o u t i t . Su p p ose you j u s t a s k the q u e s tio n i n a d i r e c t w ay.q Mr. K e l l e y : A l l r i g h t , s i r . A re you f a m i l i a rwith the p o lic y o f th e C i t y r e l a t i v e to th e is s u a n c e anddenial o f parade p e r m its ?A I am.Q In th o s e c a s e s in w h ich p e r m its a r e n o t g r a n t e d , have the p e o p le m aking th e a p p l i c a t i o n s e v e r p arad e d anyway? A No.Q Has th e A lb a n y Movement e v e r made an a p p l i c a t i o n for a permit to y o u r k n o w led g e?A NoQ Has any r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f th e A lb a n y Movementever made an a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p e r m it to y o u r k n ow led ge?A No.Q Now, you w ere asked w h e th e r o r n o t any a r r e s t s have made o f th o s e n o t en gaged in th e d e m o n s tr a t io n s bu t were in the v i c i n i t y o f th e d e m o n s t r a t io n s : w ould you Please r e la t e to th e C o u rt th e names o f th o s e who were arrested on J u l y 2 4 , i f you h a v e th em , what th e y were d°4ag and what th e y had i n t h e i r p o s s e s s io n , i f you know?MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , th e w itness h as p r e v io u s l y t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e r e w ere no such p e r s o n s a r r e s t e d .THE COURT: I d o n 't r e c a l l t h a t b e in g h i stestim ony ab o u t J u l y 2 4 . X remember h i s te s t im o n y
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about a lo n g p e r io d when you c o v e re d from a c e r t a i n date to Ju n e 2 0 , w here he t e s t i f i e d t h a t some 2 o r 3 or 4 were a r r e s t e d . I do n o t remember th e r e b e in g testim ony ab o u t J u l y 2 4 .MR. KELLEY: I w i l l r e p h r a s e th e q u e s t io n ,Your Honor P l e a s e .THE COURT; A l l r i g h t .Q Mr. K e l l e y : W ere t h e r e any p e o p le a r r e s t e dduring the week o f J u l y 23?A Y e s , and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in i t . The week of the 23rd, t h a t I n c lu d e s th e 2 8 th . T h ese d a t e s a re a l l gone. That in c lu d e s J u l y 28?Q Or any tim e a f t e r t h e 2 3 , y e s ?A Y e s , on J u l y 2 8 , l a s t S a t u r d a y .Q What w ere th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s and what happened and who was a r r e s t e d and why w ere th ^ r a r r e s t e d ?MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , there was no e v id e n c e on th e c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n , w h ich re la te d to any a r r e s t s on th e 2 8 th o f J u l y , and n o th in g in th e re c o rd p e r t a i n i n g to any a r r e s t s r e l a t e d t o th e 28th o f J u l y .THE COURT: W e l l , o f c o u r s e , you g e n tle m e nask th e s e q u e s t io n s a b o u t a m u lt it u d e o f d a t e s , what happened on a p a r t i c u l a r d a t e , and o t h e r q u e s t io n s ar>e asked from Decem ber 12 up to t h e p r e s e n t t im e .F °r in s t a n c e , I r e c a l l M r. H o l l o w e l l , you asked him S0IS5e q u e s tio n s o f t h a t n a t u r e , D ecem ber 12 up t o th e Present t im e . I rem em ber a q u e s t io n t h a t co v e re d
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that p e r io d . And i t ' s im p o s s ib le f o r me t o r e c a l l e x a ctly what t h e n a t u r e o f t h e q u e s t io n was a s i t r e la te s to a p a r t i c u l a r d a t e . B u t s in c e what happened during a l l th e p e r io d i s p e r t i n e n t , t h a t i s a r r e s t s made, s in c e w e’ ve gone i n t o i t on a l l d a t e s t h a t a n y body has t e s t i f i e d a b o u t , I t h i n k i t w ould be p e r m is s ib le f o r him t o a s k him a b o u t t h e 2 8 th ; and I w i l l a ls o allow y o u , i f you c a r e t o do s o , to ex am in e him fu rth e r a f t e r th e c o n c lu s io n o f t h i s r e d i r e c t w ith regard to t h a t , i f t h e r e i s any q u e s t io n . Go a h e a d .Q Mr, K e l l e y : W i l l you answ er th e q u e s t io n ,please?A On th e 2 8 th , w h ich was l a s t S a t u r d a y , we had large g a th e rin g s o f p e o p le in t h e v i c i n i t y o f th e C i t y H a l l observing th e s e d e m o n s tr a t io n s o r k n e e l - i n s o r p r a y in g s ; and the o f f i c e r s t h e r e c o n fin e d to t h a t a r e a , t r y i n g to keep the peace and to move t h e p e o p le , n o t ic e d a t a p p r o x im a te ly 7:30 there one man, one w h ite man, w it h a p i s t o l in h i s pocket, w ith am m unition and t h e p i s t o l o u t ; he was im m e d ia te ly Placed under a r r e s t , d r u n k , c a r r y in g a weapon w ith o u t a. license; and w a rra n ts w ere ta k e n f o r h im . A n o th e r one a t approximately an h o u r l a t e r -Q J u s t a moment now, l e t ’ s f i n i s h t h a t one f i r s t ,i f vyou d o n 't m ind: Where was he when he was a r r e s t e d ?A He was r i g h t in f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l , betw een ĥe City H a ll and th e f in a n c e company to th e w est o f th e H all a t th e f in a n c e company —•THE COURT: B e fo r e we go any f u r t h e r w ith
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 358A
t h a t , th e r e a s o n I 'm a l lo w in g t h i s q u e s t io n i s b e c a u s e , i f i t r e l a t e s to a tim e g e n e r a l l y t h a t some d e m o n s tr a t io n w a s g o in g on o r was j u s t ab out to go on o r had j u s t c e a s e d , I w ould l i k e f o r t h a t to be c l e a r , b e c a u s e I do n o t want to ad m it i t u n le s s i t had some c o n n e c t io n w ith t h e d e m o n s t r a t io n .MR. KELLEY; Y e s s i r .q E x p la in to t h e C o u r t , i f you w i l l , what was going on in f r o n t o f t h e C i t y H a l l a t t h a t tim e ?A T h ere was a l a r g e c o n g r e g a t io n o f new spaper media, s e t up t h e r e w it h ca m e ra s ; we had some d e m o n s tra to rs to come In t h e r e to p r a y and t o s i n g ; and t h i s man was in the crowd w h ich was m i l l i n g ; and one o f th e o f f i c e r s in h i s patrol and in d o in g h i s d u ty t h e r e , n o t ic e d th e man b a ck o f f to one c o r n e r and p u l l t h e p i s t o l o u t , and b e fo r e he c o u ld do an yth in g w ith th e p i s t o l , he was d is -a r m e d , p la c e d u n d e r arrest and ta k e n away from t h e s c e n e .Q Mere t h e d e m o n s tr a to r s In f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l at th a t tim e?A To th e b e s t o f ray k n o w le d g e , th e y w e re .Q A l l r i g h t , r e l a t e what o th e r a r r e s t s you m ade, i f any, w h ile a d e m o n s tr a t io n was e i t h e r g o in g on o r imminent?A L a t e r o n , a b o u t an h o u r l a t e r , we had had more dem onstrations t h e r e . The p e o p le w ere s t i l l on t h i s n i g h t , great crowds o f m i l l i n g p e o p le w ere around th e h o t e l , in front o f th e h o t e l , t h e C i t y H a l l , w a lk in g 't h e s t r e e t , heavy t r a f f i c r i d i n g b a c k and f o r t h a lo n g th e s t r e e t ;
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and the o f f i c e r s p ic k e d up a n o th e r man d ru n k and ch a rg e d with him drunk and he had a p i s t o l i n h i s p o c k e t . He had a g u n - t o t e r ’ s p e r m it , b u t he was ch a rg e d and d is -a rm e d and placed in j a i l .q Were t h e d e m o n s tr a to r s In f r o n t o f th e C it y Hall at t h a t t im e ?A To t h e b e s t o f my k n o w le d g e , th e y were e i t h e r there or were j u s t a b o u t t o come t h e r e . I b e l i e v e th e y were th e r e . I 'm n o t p o s i t i v e , b u t to th e b e s t o f my knowledge they w e r e .Q Now, C h i e f , on t h e q u e s t io n o f v io le n c e o r possible v i o l e n c e , h a v e you o r n o t had any c a u s e from people not In v o lv e d in t h e d e m o n s t r a t io n s , o r as a m a tte r of fa c t n ot members o f t h e A lb a n y M ovem ent, r e l a t i v e to th eir d e s ir e to u s e f o r c e a g a in s t some o f th e d e m o n s tr a to r s ?A I h a v e and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in t h a t . I have had te lep h on e c a l l s , p e r s o n a l c o n t a c t w ith p e o p le w ith people who h ave come t o my o f f i c e and v o lu n te e r e d ammunition , v o lu n te e r e d w eapons and th e p e o p le to u se th em . And these p e o p le have a l l been d is c o u r a g e d to le a v e i t to th e iaw enforcem ent o f f i c e r s o f t h i s C i t y and t h i s County to keep the p e a ce and to e l im in a t e any ty p e o f t h i s v i o l e n c e .And we have t r i e d i n o u r own w ay, In t a l k i n g w ith t h e s e People p e r s o n a l l y , t o d is c o u r a g e i t by t a k in g no p a r t , having them ta k e no p a r t i n t h i s ; on a number o f o c c a s io n s I have had t h i s a id o r a s s i s t a n c e o f f e r e d .Q I s i t f e a s i b l e o r p r a c t i c a l f o r you to c o n tin u eto Use your law e n fo rc e m e n t o f f i c e r s on a 24 o r 18 h o u r basis?
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A I t h in k t h a t my o f f i c e r s a r e a t t h e b r e a k in g point. I t h in k t h a t th e s t r a i n w h ich th e y h ave been u n d e r these l a s t - t h i s i s t h e f o u r t h , b e g in n in g t h e m id d le o f the fo u rth week t h a t th e y h a v e been u n d e r t h i s t e n s i o n , and th is s t r a i n , t h a t th e y a r e now b e g in n in g to r e a c h th e breaking point,* and I t h i n k t h a t t h e s e men a r e o n ly human, that they can o n ly do so m uch, th e y can o n ly ta k e so much and th ere i s a l i m i t i n g p o in t o r b r e a k in g p o in t f o r e v e r y body and I t h in k now t h a t t h i s i s r e a c h in g t h i s p o i n t .q, When you le d t h e G e o r g ia S t a t e P a tro lm e n in t o the la r g e mob, w h ich you h ave a lr e a d y d e s c r ib e d , on S o u th Jackson S t r e e t , on t h a t one p a r t i c u l a r n i g h t , w h ich was th e 24th o f J u l y , w ere you a b le to i d e n t i f y th o s e who w ere throwing b o t t l e s and r o c k s and u s in g in fla m m a to r y la n g u a g e and th in g s o f t h a t n a t u r e ?A No, we w e re n ’ t .Q Why w e re n ’ t yo u ?A B e ca u se we w ere to o busy t r y i n g to c o n t r o l th e s itu a tio n , to keep th e p e o p le m o v in g , to keep t h e l i n e moving, to s e e t h a t th e p e o p le i n t h e s e l i n e s h e ld t h e i r ground, d id n o t b r e a k th e l i n e and t o keep t h e p e o p le movingQ Have you made any a r r e s t s by re a so n o f t u r n in g in fa ls e f i r e a la r m s ?MR. KOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h i s was a l l gone o v e r on d i r e c t e x a m in a t io n .THE COURT: I a g r e e w ith you and I ’ l l ta k ethe same p o s i t i o n now, M r. K e l l e y , w ith you as I d id
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Mr. H o llo w e ll in t h e c o u r s e o f h i s e x a m in a t io n . I d o n 't want any r e p e t i t i o n , any g o in g o v e r o f m a t te r s im p ly fo r e m p h a sis .MR. KELLEY; I d id n o t r e c a l l w h eth er wecovered th e q u e s t io n o f any a r r e s t s b e in g made f o r tu rn in g in f a l s e f i r e a la r m s ; and i f in f a c t I d i d n ' t cover i t , I w anted t o c o v e r i t and show t h a t t h e r e c o u ld n 't be any a r r e s t s b e c a u s e th e y c o u l d n 't i d e n t i f y them. THE COURT: Now M r, H o l lo w e l l , w ith r e g a l ’dto th a t p a r t i c u l a r p o i n t , w it h regard , t o t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p o in t , M r. H o l l o w e l l , do you r e c a l l any te s t im o n y w ith re g a rd to t h a t ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I r e c a l l , Y o u r H on or, I f my memory s e r v e s me c o r r e c t s , t h a t he t e s t i f i e d on d i r e c t th a t th e r e w ere f i v e c a l l s f o r f i r e a la rm s and t h a t they went o u t ; o r t h a t he had In fo r m a tio n to th e e f f e c t t h a t th e y w ent o u t and t h a t th e r e were no f i r e s and t h a t t h e eq uip m ent was r e t u r n e d ; and he sa id th e s e w ere i n t h e s o u th p a r t o f th e C i t y . And I b e lie v e t h i s was a b o u t t h e e x t e n t o f t h a t t e s t im o n y .THE COURT: W e ll now, do you o b j e c t to th esim ple q u e s t io n b e in g a s k e d , w h e th e r any a r r e s t s w ere uade as a r e s u l t o f t h a t a n d , I f n o t , why i t happened bhat th e r e w ere no a r r e s t s ? Do you o b je c t to t h a t ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I h a v e no p a r t i c u l a r o b je c t i o n to i t . i d o n 't t h i n k i t ' s r e a l l y r e l e v a n t .THE COURT: W e l l , I t h in k I t ' s r e le v a n t
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because i t i s e v id e n c e o f t h e g e n e r a l s i t u a t i o n created a p p a r e n t ly by t h e g e n e r a l a c t i v i t y c o n n e c te d with th e d e m o n s t r a t io n . T h a t ’ s t h e re a so n I t h i n k i t ’ s r e le v a n t .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,I would c e r t a i n l y h a v e some o b j e c t i o n t o t h e manner in w hich th e C o u r t h a s r e l a t e d i t , w h ich seem s, from th e s ta te m e n t as I u n d e r s to o d I t , t h a t th e Court was p u t t i n g h i s i n t e r p r e t a t i o n as to th e re a s o n fo r a p a r t i c u l a r r e s u l t , and I w ould c e r t a i n l y q u e s t io n t h a t , s i r .THE COURT: W e l l , I w a s n 't im p ly in g anyi n t e r p r e t a t i o n . I was s im p ly s a y in g t h a t , as I se e i t , th e f a c t t h a t t h e te s t im o n y h a s shown t h a t f a l s e f i r e alarm s w ere tu r n e d I n a t th e tim e th e d e m o n stra tio n was In p r o g r e s s w ould make i t r e le v a n t as e v id e n c e as to w h eth er i t was a p a r t o f th e g e n e r a l p la n o f the d e m o n s tr a t io n , t h e f a c t t h a t i t to o k p la c e a t th e same tim e ; and th e n t h e f u r t h e r In fo r m a t io n as to w h eth er any a r r e s t s w ere made a n d , I f n o t , why n o t .MR. HOLLOWE L L : I w ould su b m it t h a t th e s t a t e ment as s t i l l made by Y o u r Honor I s n o t a s i t w i l l be shown to be i n th e r e c o r d , i n t h a t I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e th ere was any te s t im o n y to t h e e f f e c t t h a t t h e f i r e alarms were made a s o f th e tim e o f t h e d e m o n s t r a t io n .The r e c o r d , as I r e c a l l i t , o r th e e v id e n c e as I r e c a l l I t was t o t h e e f f e c t t h a t t h e r e w ere some f i r e alarms d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f t h a t n i g h t , some f i v e
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 363A
f i r e a la r m s ; b u t t h e r e was no e v id e n c e t o my r e c o l l e c t i o n to th e e f f e c t t h a t th e y o c c u r r e d d u r in g th e d e m o n s tr a tio n .THE COURT; My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t i t wase it h e r a t th e same tim e o r im m e d ia te ly b e fo r e o r im m e d iately a f t e r , one o r th e o t h e r ; t h a t i t was so c l o s e l y a s s o c i a t e d . T h at i s my r e c o l l e c t i o n and I may be In e r r o r in my r e c o l l e c t i o n . B u t I d o n ’ t t h in k any harm can b e done by s im p ly l e t t i n g th e w it n e s s t e s t i f y ab o u t i t , in o r d e r t h a t any c o n fu s io n ab o u t i t m ight be c le a r e d u p . S o , you may go a h e a d .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I presum e th a t th e r e c o r d , i n s o f a r as Y o u r H o n o r 's s ta te m e n t i s co n cern ed , t h a t we a re d e p e n d in g upon th e r e c o r d as i t was s t a t e d a t th e tim e o f th e c r o s s and t h e d i r e c t , as d is t in g u is h e d from th e s ta te m e n t made by th e C o u r t .THE COURT: W e l l , th e s ta te m e n t made by mewas s im p ly my e f f o r t t o r e c a l l what th e te s t im o n y was and, o f c o u r s e , I 'm n o t t e s t i f y i n g .MR. HOLLOWELL: Thank y o u .THE COURT: And y o u 'r e n o t bound by myin t e r p r e t a t io n o f i t . I was s im p ly e x p l a in in g my r u l i n g , th e re a s o n I was r e a c h in g th e c o n c lu s io n I d i d .B e fo r e you go any f u r t h e r , M r. K e l l e y , i t has been c a l l e d to my a t t e n t i o n t h a t th e r e p o s s ib ly may be some p e o p le who h ave been subpoenaed as w it n e s s e s in th e c o u r t room and I w ould l i k e f o r t h e M a rsh a l to ta k e c h a r g e o f th em .
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THE MARSHAL: A re t h e r e any w it n e s s e s in th ecourtroom u n d e r su b p o en a o r a p p e a r in g h e r e a t th e request o f t h e C i t y o r e i t h e r s i d e , e i t h e r p a r t y ; are th e r e any i n th e co u rtro o m ?MR. HOLLOWELL: We r e le a s e d a fo rm e r w it n e s s which we h a d , M r. Em anuel J a c k s o n .THE CLERK: T h a t ’ s who we n o t ic e d and whywe c a l le d I t to t h e C o u r t ’ s a t t e n t i o n .THE MARSHAL: A re t h e r e any o t h e r w it n e s s e shere as a w i t n e s s , even th o u g h t h e y 'r e n o t u n d e r subpoena b u t i f you a r e h e r e a t th e r e q u e s t o f e i t h e r p a r ty , p le a s e s t a n d ,THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .Q M r. K e l l e y : W ere t h e r e m y a r r e s t s made byreason o f f a l s e f i r e a la r m s , C h ie f ?A No, t h e r e w a sn ’ t .Q Why w a sn ’ t t h e r e ?A A l l o f my o f f i c e r s w ere t i e d up a t t h i s s c e n e .None o f them answ ered any o f t h e s e c a l l s . T h e se c a l l s went o f f d u rin g t h e d e m o n s t r a t io n s , a f t e r th e d e m o n s tra - ^rens, and my o f f i c e r s w ere a s s ig n e d - one o f f i c e r was assigned to th e F i r e D ep a rtm en t a f t e r w a r d s , to t r y to t r a c k down these t h i n g s ; b u t none w ere made b e c a u s e a l l o f th e P°Hce powers w ere u se d i n t h i s m a rch .Q Were you a b le t o i d e n t i f y any o f th o s e who placed the f a l s e a la r m s ?AQ No, we w e r e n 't .I ha^e no f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 36o A
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR, HOLLOWELLq May I s e e t h e c o m p la in t j u s t a moment, p le a s e sir. . . . Now, C h i e f , on r e d i r e c t you i n d i c a t e d t h a t you were only a u th o r iz e d t o s p e a k f o r th e C i t y Com m ission i n connection w ith p o l i c e m a t t e r s : W i l l you d e f i n e what you construe to be p o l i c e m a t t e r s ?A Y e s , X w o u ld . I t\rould l i k e to e la b o r a t e on t h a t , that my only d e a lin g s w it h t h e A lb a n y Movement th r o u g h th e City Commissioner was th r o u g h p o l i c e p o w ers; and th e o n ly things th at were d is c u s s e d a t t h e s e m e e tin g s w ere th e a r r e s t s of these p eop le in D ecem b er, t h e bond money w h ich we had deposited w ith th e C i t y , th e c a s h bond m oney, th e d i s p o s i t i o n of these cases and o t h e r t h in g s and ite m s w h ich th e y had sent le t t e r s in r e q u e s t i n g ; t h a t t h i s was th e o n ly t h in g that I had th e a u t h o r i t y t o s p e a k c o n c e r n in g .Q How ever, you d is c u s s e d a l l o f t h e a s p e c t s o f the g riev an ce s, w h ich w ere r e l a t e d from tim e to tim e by the leaders o f th e A lb a n y M ovem ent, d id you n o t?A We d is c u s s e d many t h in g s d u r in g a l l o f t h e s emeetings.Q T h a t ’ s n o t my q u e s t io n , s i r ?A We d i d , g r ie v a n c e s and o t h e r t h in g s o f o t h e rnature.Q Now, t h e r e w ere no crow ds i n c i d e n t t o th e So~called d e m o n stra tio n w h ich was shown in th e p i c t u r e s
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that were any g r e a t e r a t any one s p o t th a n th o s e shown in the p ic t u r e , w ere t h e r e ?A T h ere w e r e .q Would you i n d i c a t e i n any one s i t u a t i o n co v e re d by those p i c t u r e s w here?A T h ose p i c t u r e s t h a t w ere ta k e n w ere i n th e immediate a r e a o f t h e C i t y H a l l , The o t h e r a r e a s w ere on South, on N o rth J a c k s o n , around th e c o m e r from th e C i t y H all, the 100 b lo c k o f N o rth J a c k s o n , B road Avenue betw een Washington and J a c k s o n .Q You w e r e n 't i n a l l o f th o s e p l a c e s , w ere you ?A I was a t t h e s e p l a c e s , o f f and o n , y e s .Q You w e re n ’ t in th o s e p la c e s d u r in g t h e p e r io dof time t h a t t h e s e p i c t u r e s w ere b e in g t a k e n , w ere you?A I was o f f and on around a l l o f t h i s uptown area. I o c c a s io n e d m y s e lf t o v i s i t a l l o f I t to s e e what was going o n .Q B u t t h e p i c t u r e s w ere ta k e n in o r d e r t o t r y to in clu d e e v e ry f a c e t t h a t you c o u ld t h in k o f , so you stated on c r o s s e x a m in a t io n ? I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A Not every? f a c e t . I s a id t h a t t h e s e p i c t u r e s were taken by o f f i c e r s o r d e t e c t i v e s o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e Department; th e y w ere I n s t r u c t e d to ta k e t h e s e p i c t u r e s ; and i t was my d u ty to fr e q u e n t m y s e lf around a l l a r e a s o f the C ity , where t h i s c r i s i s and w here t h i s t e n s io n and where th e se crow ds and mobs w e re .Q You mean w here t h i s t e n s io n and c r i s i s was tn your o p in io n , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e lir a in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727
A In ray o p in io n , I t wa3 t h e r e , y e s .Q Now, you m en tio n e d s o m e th in g a b o u t p e r m it s ,that there had been no g rp u p s t h a t had s o u g h t a p e r m it and been r e fu s e d b u t had gone on t o p a r a d e : Do you h ave a f i le which would show any p a r a d e p e r m its w h ich h ave been denied?A I t h in k th e p a r a d e p e r m it f i l e w ould show some parades th a t have been d e n ie d .Q Can you r e c o l l e c t an y?A I w ould l i k e t o e x p la in t h i s , Y o u r Honor?Q Answer i t f i r s t ?A Y e s , th e y h a v e been r e fu s e d and I w ould l i k e to explain i t .THE COURT: V e ry w e l l . Now, th e q u e s t io ni s , do you r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c a l l y a t t h i s tim e ?A The W itn e s s : Y e s , I d o , and I w ould l i k e to explain i t .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : A l l r i g h t , w ould you i n d i c a t e that one?A B ack a few m onths ago t h e r e was an A lb a n y g i r l too was crowned M iss G e o r g ia in Colum bus; sh e r e tu r n e d h e r e on Sunday and th e c lu b w h ich r e p r e s e n te d h e r , some c i v i c organization h e re w h ich r e p r e s e n te d h e r and had h e r as ^ e ir r e p r e s e n ta t iv e i n t h e M iss G e o r g ia B e a u ty C o n t e s t , Wanted to parade around t h e s t r e e t s , t h e s t r e e t s o f th e Cit7 of Albany in t h e uptown a r e a i n a m o to rca d e and p a r a d e ; e People were d e n ie d t h i s p e r m is s io n and r e fu s e d to
IjO
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let them do i t b e c a u s e th e y d id n o t h a v e a p e r m it ; and th e y did not p arade and d id n o t h a v e a m o to rca d e in th e C i t y on that d a te .q T h is was on S u n d a y , when t h e C i t y H a l l was closed, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I t w o u ld n 't h a v e made any d i f f e r e n c e .Q I s i t c o r r e c t ?A I t i s c o r r e c t and I w ould l i k e to e x p la in m y s e lf .It wouldn't have made any d i f f e r e n c e w h e th e r i t had been Sunday, Monday o r T u esd ay o r W ednesday, i f th e y d id n o t h a v e a permit and th e y had n o t p r i o r been g iv e n p e r m is s io n , th e y would not have been a b le to p a ra d e o r d e m o n s tra te i n s i d e th e City l i m i t s .0, D id th e y a p p ly f o r on e?A No, th e y d i d n ' t .Q Now, you s t a t e d t h a t you knew what th e p r o cedure was: Would you I n d i c a t e f o r th e r e c o r d what i s th e policy on th e Is s u a n c e o f p e r m its f o r p a ra d e s o r th e procedure r a t h e r ?A T h is p e r m it h a s t o go th r o u g h th e C i t y M a n a g e r 's o ffic e , who in tu r n fo rw a rd s i t t o my o f f i c e and we p e rm it this on th e b a s is o f t h e d ay i t i s , t h e h o u r , th e r o u te that they p r o p o s e , t h e number o f p e o p le t h a t ' s i n I t ; and then in tu rn we s i t down a n d , i f i t ' s w here t h e p e r m is s io n ls Slanted o r w h e th e r i t i s r e f u s e d , th e n w r it t e n p e r m is s io n is given to them o r w r i t t e n d e n i a l i s g iv e n to th em , s t a t i n g the reaso n s, s t a t i n g th e r o u t e , s t a t i n g th e tim e t h a t th e y Wlsh and th en i t ' s g iv e n b a c k to th em .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 7 2 7 369A
q Who makes t h i s d e t e r m in a t io n ?A The C i t y M a n a g e r , a lo n g w it h m y s e lf .Q I s a w r i t t e n a p p l i c a t i o n r e q u ir e d ?A I t i sq By w hat r e g u l a t i o n ?A I b e l i e v e t h a t ’ s r e g u la t i o n I n th e C i t y o r d in a n c e ,in the code book o f th e C i t y o f A lb a n y .Q, W i l l you show i t t o me h e r e ?A I t h in k th e C i t y M anager can f in d I t f o r youor one o f them t h e r e , o r we can s e a r c h i t .Q Are you t a l k i n g a b o u t C h a p te r 2 4 , S e c t io n 35 of the Albany Code?A T h is i s w here i t s a y s " p r o h ib it e d e x c e p t w ith written con sen t o f th e C i t y M a n a g e r ."Q P r o h ib it e d e x c e p t on w r it t e n c o n s e n t o f th e City Manger" ; i s t h e r e a n y t h in g t h e r e w h ich s a y s t h a t there has to be a w r i t t e n a p p l i c a t i o n ?A Not h e r e .Q T h e r e ’ s n o t h in g t h e r e w h ich s a y s how lo n g inadvance you have t o a p p ly , i s t h e r e ?A T h a t ' s c c o r r e c t .Q S o , a s a m a t te r o f f a c t , t h i s Code s e c t i o n s a y s only ^hat p a i’a d e s , d e m o n s tr a t io n s and a d d r e s s e s a r e to ta k e Place only on th e w r it t e n c o n s e n t o f th e C i t y M anager and n°thing e l s e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?^ T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .11R. RAWLS: We s u b m it , I f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s ,
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that th e Code i t s e l f , t h e s e c t i o n o f th e Code i t s e l f would be th e h i g h e s t and b e s t e v id e n c e ; and w h a te v e r c o n s tr u c tio n he p l a c e s on i t w ould be I l l e g a l , ir r e le v a n t and im m a te r ia lTHE COURT: D o n 't you a g r e e w it h t h a t , M r.H o llo w e ll?MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , I su b m it t h a t t h i s i s one o f th e p e r s o n s by h i s own te s t im o n y who h a s t h i s r e s p o n s ib i l i t y and w e’ r e t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t what a r e the p r o c e d u r e s .THE COURT: Y o u 'v e a lr e a d y ask e d him ab ou tproced u re. Y o u 'v e a lr e a d y been o v e r t h a t .MR, HOLLOWELL: H e 's answ ered th e q u e s t io n .THE COURT: B u t s t r i c t l y t h e q u e s t io n ab o u twhat does t h e law s a y , I t h in k y o u ' l l a g r e e t h a t t h a t ' snot th e way t o go a b o u t i t .MR, HOLLOWELL: I t h i n k t h a t ' s t r u e . I wastry in g to a n t i c i p a t e w h eth er o r n o t he knew o f any other p r o v is io n s I n t h e Code t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h i s s u b je c t - m a t t e r .THE COURT; A l l r i g h t .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I s t h e r e any p u b lis h e d r e g u la tion put out by th e C i t y M anager o r by t h e C h i e f o f P o l i c e ' s °ffice d e a lin g w ith t h e m a t te r o f a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p e r m it?A Not by t h e o f f i c e o f t h e C h i e f o f P o l i c e .Q W il l you r e p e a t y o u r a n sw e r, p le a s e ?A Not by th e o f f i c e o f th e C h i e f o f P o l i c e .
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q i s t h e r e any t h a t you know o f by t h e O f f i c e o f the City Manager?A I can o n ly s p e a k f o r my o f f i c e and n o t o f th e City Manager.q. You mean t h a t you a r e a p a r t o f t h e f o r c e which has th e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y u n d e r y o u r p r o c e d u r e and policy, th a t i s t h e p r o c e d u r e and p o l i c y o f t h e C i t y for the is s u a n c e o f p a r a d e p e r m it s , and you d o n 't know whether th e re a r e any r e g u l a t i o n s w r it t e n o u t w h ich have been published by t h e C i t y M a n a g e r 's o f f i c e d e a l i n g w ith this su b ject?A Not to my k n o w le d g e . The C i t y M anager i s sitting h e re . I c a n ’ t t e s t i f y f o r h im .Q What y o u 'r e s a y in g i s t h a t t h e r e a r e none to your knowledge?A To my k n o w le d g e .Q Have you e v e r se e n any?A l o ,Q Now, c a l l i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o n , C h i e f , to t h e d a t e I b e lie v e , t h e 1 3 th o f J u l y , 1962 , do you r e c o l l e c t having a c o n fe r e n c e w it h A t to r n e y K in g , S l a t e r K in g , R e v . Qay> Dr. A n d erson , M r. R o o s , on a S a tu r d a y and a t w h ich fche counsel who i s d i r e c t i n g th e q u e s t io n s t o you a t t h i s hinie was p r e s e n t?A I remember th e m e e t in g .MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s ,I don’ t s e e a n y t h in g a b o u t th a t ' t h a t ' s i n c r o s so f any o f t h e r e d i r e c t , b ro u g h t o u t by M r. K e l l e y .
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 372A
I j u s t d o n ’ t . I t h i n k h i s s c o p e i s l i m i t e d t o c r o s s co n ce rn in g m a t te r s t h a t w ere b ro u g h t o u t on r e d i r e c t by Mr. K e l le y h e r e ,THE COURT? Y e t , b u t , o f c o u r s e , I do n o t know y e t what q u e s t io n he w i l l a s k .MR. HOLLOWELLs Thank y o u , Y o u r H o n o r.THE C0UK1?: A sk y o u r q u e s t io n and th e n wew i l l se e i f i t i s r e l e v a n t . In o t h e r w o rd s , th e q u e stio n now i s w h e th e r he r e c a l l s h a v in g a c o n f e r ence and I w i l l a l lo w him t o a s k t h a t .Q MR. HOLLOWELL: I b e l i e v e you answ ered y e s ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q A t t h a t tim e t h e m a t te r o f p a ra d e p e r m its came up, did i t n o t?A I t c o u ld h a v e i n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n .Q Do you remember t h a t D r .A n d e r s o n ask e d M r. Rooswhether o r n o t he w ould i s s u e a p e r m it f o r t h e p u rp o se o f having a grou p o f N eg ro es to come from th e c h u rc h to th e City H a ll , in th e m anner i n w h ich th e y had done on p r e v io u s occasions; and M r. Roos r e p l i e d t h a t " I c o u l d n 't do t h a t " ; isn 't th a t t r u e ?A I d o n 't remember t h a t , n o . I t ' s p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e there was a l o t o f t a l k g o in g on i n t h a t room a b o u t v a r io u s ^atmers, bu t I d o n 't r e c a l l any c o n v e r s a t io n d i r e c t w ith Roos sund D r . ¥ . G . A n d e r s o n . I was t a l k i n g w it h o t h e r People w h ile o th e r p e o p le w ere t a l k i n g w it h h im , and i t ' s Possible th a t t h i s ta k e n p l a c e w ith o u t my k n o w le d g e .
Hearing on M otion For* P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 7'27 373A
q You w ere I n th e room a t a l l t im e s d u r in g t h i s discussion?A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .MR. RAWLS; Y o u r Honor p l e a s e , we su b m itth at Mr. Roos I s h e r e , h e ’ s a p a r t y and h e ’ s p r e s e n t ; and h e 's s u b j e c t t o b e c a l l e d f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n , i f he d o e s n ’ t t a k e th e s ta n d a s a w it n e s s f o r th e P l a n t i f f s .THE COURT; W e l l , I b e l i e v e t h e q u e s t io n has been ask e d and t h e answ er h a s been g i v e n . I w i l l allow I t to s t a y i n t h e r e c o r d , b u t I d o n 't s e e any use in p u r s u in g I t f u r t h e r , b e c a u s e h e ’ s now s a id t h a t he has no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a n y t h in g b e in g s a i d .Q Mr, H o l lo w e l l j You do r e c o l l e c t t h a t th e m a tte r of penults was d is c u s s e d ?THE COURT; Now M r. H o l l o w e l l , h e ’ s a lr e a d y answered t h a t . He s a y s he h a s no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f any d is c u s s io n a b o u t i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , I b egto d i f f e r r e s p e c t f u l l y w it h Y o u r H o n or, b u t t h i s was cot as I r e c o l l e c t h i s a n s w e r . He s a id t h a t hedidn’ t s p e c i f i c a l l y r e c o l l e c t th e s ta te m e n t t h a t I was a d d r e s s in g t o him and t h e r e p ly t h a t was b e in g made by M r. R o o s; b u t I do n o t b e l i e v e t h a t th e r e c o r d w ill show t h a t he s a id t h a t he d i d n ’ t r e c o l l e c t anyd is c u s s io n a b o u t p e r m it s ; and t h a t was th e q u e s t io n , s i r .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 72 7 374A
THE COURT: T h a t was th e way I r e c a l l e d h i ste stim o n y. I may be in e r r o r . Su p p ose you a s k him again .Q. M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now C h i e f , I ' l l a s k you i s I t not true - read th e q u e s t io n and t h e an sw er as you r e c o l l e c t it, Mr, R e p o rte r , p le a s e ?THE REPORTER: "Do you remember t h a t D r .Anderson asked M r. Roos w h e th e r o r n o t he w ould i s s u e a perm it f o r th e p u rp o se o f h a v in g a grou p o f N eg ro es to come from t h e c h u r c h to th e C i t y H a l l , In t h e m anner in which th e y had done on p r e v io u s o c c a s i o n s , and M r. Roos r e p lie d t h a t " I c o u l d n 't do t h a t " ; i s n ' t t h a t true? A , I d o n 't remember t h a t , n o . I t ' s p o s s i b l e because th e r e was a l o t o f t a l k g o in g i n t h a t room about v a r io u s m a t te r s b u t I d o n 't r e c a l l any c o n v e r s a tion d i r e c t w it h M r. Roos and D r.W , G . A n d e rs o n . I was t a l k i n g w it h o t h e r p e o p le "MR. HOLLOWELL: J u s t b e fo r e you s t a r t e d t h e r e ,Mr. J o i n e r , j u s t b e fo r e t h a t .THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : A t t h a t tim e th ematter o f p a ra d e p e r m its came u p , d id i t n o t?Answer: I t c o u ld h a v e i n th e c o n v e r s a t i o n ."THE COURT: What I 'm s a y i n g , M r. H o l lo w e llhe said i t c o u ld h a v e b u t he h a s no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f xt . He t e s t i f i e d h e h a s no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f any co n ve rsa tio n betw een D r .A n d e r s o n and M r. Roos about i t . S o , I d o n 't s e e any re a so n f o r p u r s u in g i t with t h i s w it n e s s f u r t h e r .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e lir a in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 375A
MR. HOLLOWELL; I f i t p l e a s e th e C o u r t , we a r e seeking to e l i c i t a p o s i t i v e a n s w e r , when he s a id th is co u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d . I su b m it t h a t i t w i l l be a p p ro p ria te f o r t h i s c o u n s e l t o t r y t o e i t h e r refresh th e r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h i s w i t n e s s , b u t c o u n s e l is f in d in g i t e x tr e m e ly d i f f i c u l t b e c a u s e o f c e r t a i n in te r p r e t a t io n s t h a t a p p e a r t o be m ade. I w ould l i k e the p r i v i l e g e o f b e in g a b le to h ave him answ er o u r question as I ask e d i t .THE COURT; I d o n ’ t mind you a t te m p tin g torefresh h i s r e c o l l e c t i o n , b u t when he makes a p o s i t i v e statem ent t h a t he h a s no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h e c o n v e r s a tion to w h ich you r e f e r , and th e n th e r e p e t i t i o n o f the same q u e s t io n o v e r i n o t h e r la n g u a g e and so o n , i s simply t a k in g t i m e . 1 d o n ’ t w ant to c u t you o f f u n d u ly . Go ahead and s e e I f yo u can r e f r e s h h i s r e c o l l e c t i o n . I t ' s a g a in s t ray b e t t e r judgm ent t o a l lo w you t o do s o , because I t h in k w e 'r e w a s t in g t im e b u t I w ant to lean o ver b ackw ard s to a l lo w you to do i t .MR. HOLLOWELL; I w i l l raove to so m e th in g e l s e .I nay come b a c k t o I t , s i r .Q You have and members o f y o u r P o l i c e D ep artm en t âve on hany o c c a s io n s a r r e s t e d w h ite p e o p le and N e g ro e s i0' kslng dru nk , h a v e you n o t?A We h a v e .Q And y o u ’ ve a r r e s t e d many p e o p le from tim e to tirne for c a r r y in g c o n c e a le d w eap o n s, i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 376Agearing
q Can you name t h e man t h a t you d id a r r e s t , you say, about 7 : 30, who was d ru n k and had a p i s t o l , on th e
23rd, or the 28t h r a t h e r ?A H is name xvas A lm on.q Beg p a rd o n ?A H is name w as. Almon and t h e o t h e r one was named Collins.Q Where a r e th e y now?A They have made bond and a r e now o u t on bond; where th ey're a t , I d o n 't know.Q Have th e y been t r i e d ?A Not to my k n o w le d g e , n o .Q I s t h a t A lm on, A - l - m - o - n ( s p e l l i n g ) ?A I t h in k s o .Q Do you remember e i t h e r o f th e f i r s t nam es?A One was nam ed, n ickn am ed "M ik e" and t h e o t h e r°ne, I don’ t know.Q Mike can b e i d e n t i f i e d w it h w h ich nam e, do you ^collect?A C o l l i n s . T h e s e names a r e on f i l e a t th e A lb a n y Police Department and can be g o t a t y o u r r e q u e s t o r a t y o u r indention o f g e t t i n g th em .Q Do you know w h e th e r o r n o t he h a s a p o l i c erecord?A That I d o n 't know . I t ' s a r e c o r d o f c o u r t . ̂ You made no a r r e s t on t h a t o c c a s io n o f any Negroes having an?? w eap o n s, d id you ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 377A
A I w ould l i k e to e x p l a i n - n o , I w i l l j u s t answ er that with a n o; and I w ould l i k e t o e x p la in t h a t , Y o u rHonor. THE COURT*. A l l r i g h t .A;: The W itn e s s : W e l l , I ’ l l le a v e i t as i t i s .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : Now, l a s t n ig h t t h e r e was ameeting at th e c h u rc h a c r o s s from M t. Z io n , was t h e r e n o t?MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n ’ t know what t h e s i g n a l s are here betw een c o u n s e l and t h e C o u r t , I mean and the w it n e s s , Y o u r H o n o r.THE COURT: I d o n ’ t know a n y t h in g a b o u tany e i t h e r . What a r e yo u r e f e r r i n g t o ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I was r e f e r r i n g t o g e s t i c u l a t i o n s by the C h ie f tow ard t h e c o u n s e l and v i c e v e r s a .MR. RAWLS: I w ish he w ould d e s ig n a t e th ecounsel t h a t he c la im s was in v o lv e d i n su ch s p u r io u s scheme.MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n ’ t r e c a l l h a v in g g iv e n i t any t e r m in o lo g y , e x c e p t to i n d i c a t e t h a t as I s to o d here t h i s was m ost e v id e n t t o me; and n o t o n ly was i t e v id e n t by lo o k b u t a l s o by u s e o f hands and g e s t ic u la t io n s and th e u s e o f t h e head tow ard c o u n s e l .MR, RAWLS: T h e r e ’ s t h r e e c o u n s e l h e r eat co u n sel t a b l e .MR. HOLLOWELL: — tow ard c o u n s e l t a b l e . And there was an o b s e r v a t io n o f some head s h a k in g by counsel as o f t h a t t im e , f i r , K e l le y t o be e x a c t .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 3?8A
THE COURT: W e l l , l e t ' s go a h e a d , M r.H o llo w e ll . I d o n 't know s p e c i f i c a l l y what y o u 'r e t a lk in g a b o u t .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , I t h in k I can make i t very c l e a r . I was q u e s t io n in g t h e g e s t i c u l a t i o n s made by th e w it n e s s t o c o u n s e l t a b l e , b o th w it h hand and head and t h e g e s t i c u l a t i o n s b a c k from c o u n s e l , p a r t i c u l a r l y in t h i s i n s t a n c e M r. K e l le y b a c k to the c h a i r , t h e w it n e s s c h a i r .A The W itn e s s : W e l l , I ' l l t r y to r e f r a i n frommoving about so much b u t I am g e t t i n g a l i t t l e t i r e d , Y o u r Honor. MR. HOLLOWELL: I t w a s n 't a m a t te r o f m oving about s i r .MR. KELLEY: May I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I amq u ite s u re I made no g e s t i c u l a t i o n . I d id s e e th e C h ie f wave h i s h a n d s . I d o n ’ t know what he meant as we have no p r e -a r r a n g e d s i g n a l s . I n e v e r c o u ld read s i g n a l s anyw ay, p l a y i n g b a l l ; and c e r t a i n l y I had no I n t e n t io n s o f c a r r y in g on a n y th in g w it h th e w itn e s s . I d id s e e him move h i s hands b u t t h a t ' s the e x te n t o f i t .A The W itn e s s : T h a t 's a s i g n a l f o r w a te r(h o ld in g up g l a s s tu m b le r ) . . .MR. KELLEY: F r a n k ly , 1 was a b o u t to a s k M r.Rawls to o b j e c t to th e q u e s t io n as b e in g i r r e l e v a n t and Im m a t e r ia l , on th e grou n d t h a t he has a lr e a d y been over th e same t h i n g many t i m e s .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 379A
THE COURT: W e l l , I 'm s u r e t h a t no c o u n s e l i nth is ca se f o r P l a i n t i f f s o r t h e D e fe n d a n ts w ould r e s o r t to any im p ro p er c o n d u c t o f any k in d . L e t ' s go a h e a d .Q Mr. H o l lo w e l l : C h i e f , on l a s t e v e n in g , b e in g the 31st o f J u l y , t h e r e was a m e e tin g a t M t. Z io n and Shiloh ch u rch es, was t h e r e n o t?, MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s ,he i s d e f i n i t e l y g o in g i n t o so m e th in g now t h a t i s not a c r o s s o f w hat M ayor K e l le y asked him on r e d i r e c t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , on the d i r e c t t h e C o u rt i t s e l f made I t v e r y e x p l i c i t that th e te s t im o n y w ould man r i g h t on up to t h i s present tim e and t h a t i t w ould be p e r t i n e n t .THE COURT: T h a t 's r i g h t , I d id s a y t h a tand I ' l l a l lo w you to a s k th e q u e s t io n .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l ; T h e re was a m e e t in g , t o y o u r knowledge, was th e r e n o t?A To my k n o w le d g e , t h e r e was Q How many p e o p le w ould you e s t im a t e w ere assembled in t h a t a r e a a t t h a t t i m e , s a y around t h e h o u r °f 1° o 'c lo c k o r betw een 9:00 and 10 : 00?A I c o t i ld n 't s a y b e c a u s e I was a t home and I had n° knowledge as to w hat was g o in g on h e r e . I was home l a s t nlsnt with my fa m ily f o r one t im e In fo u r w eeks and had no knowledge o f w h eth er t h e r e was one m e e tin g o r 10 m e e tin g s&oing on in th e C i t y o f A lb a n y a t M t. Z io n , S h i lo h o r any °ther ifegno c h u r c h .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 38OA
q W e ll , you j u s t s a id t h a t you knew t h a t t h e r e Was one at M t. Z io n ?A You s a id to my k n o w le d g e .Q To y o u r k n o w led ge?A By u n d e r s ta n d in g i t from somebody e l s e t o methat there w as, b u t I do n o t know how many p e o p le was a t these churches.Q One l a s t q u e s t io n : The s i t u a t i o n was calm in Albany back in May, so t h a t you w ere even a b le t o ta k e a vacation, w a sn 't i t ?A B ack when?Q In May?A l w ould l i k e to answ er t h a t and e x p la in i t ,Your Honor. The COURT: Y e s .A The W itn e s s : I d id t a k e one b u t i t wasinterrupted by d e m o n s tr a t io n s t h a t ta k e n p la c e p r i o r to Easter and r e q u ir e d my r u s h in g b a c k h e r e t o A lb a n y , to see and try to h a n d le t h e s i t u a t i o n . I d id h a v e ab o u t 3 or 4 days b e fo r e i t was in t e r r u p t e d by d e m o n s tr a t io n Prior to E a s t e r , and had t o come b a c k h e r e , le a v e one n ig h t snd drive a l l n ig h t to g e t b a c k h e r e ; and i t d id i n t e r r u p t my
^011 3 days v a c a t io n .Q What d a t e was t h a t , t h a t t h e r e was. a dem onstra-'*.. • rion in May, t h a t c a u se d you to h ave t o do t h i s ?A When was E a s t e r ? T h a t ’ s t h e o n ly v a c a t io n Ve had, was p r i o r t o E a s t e r , th e w eek o f E a s t e r S u n d a y .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 38IA
q Do you r e c o l l e c t t h e r e b e in g any a r r e s t s o f any demonstrators t h e w eek-en d a p p r o a c h in g E a s t e r ?A Now, I was c a l l e d ~~Q Do you r e c o l l e c t , I s a y , t h e r e b e in g any a r r e s t s ?A I do and I w ould l i k e t o e x p la in i t .q What d a t e was t h a t on?A I f I remember r i g h t , i t was on a S a t u r d a y .Q What S a tu r d a y ?A B e cau se Sunday was - you asked me, I d o n ’ t know the d a te , I 'm j u s t t e l l i n g you t h e b e s t I know by recollection, s t a n d in g o r s i t t i n g h e r e on t h i s s t a n d . I was in Florida —Q Have you ta k e n any n o te s c o n c e r n in g i t ?A No, I h a v e no n o t e s ,Q Those a r e n o t y o u r n o te s on t h e t a b l e ?A Y e s , t h e y ’ r e n o t e s .Q Do you h a v e some n o te s w h ich you h a v e In y o u rPocket, do you h ave a n y t h in g on them r e l a t i n g to any su chdemonstration?A Y o u ’ r e a s k in g me a q u e s t io n and I ’ m g o in g to my best to g iv e i t t o y o u , I f y o u ' l l l e t me.Q W e ll , t h i s i s t h e q u e s t io n I ’ m a s k in g a t th e moment: Do you have any n o te s on any d e m o n s tr a t io n t h a t occured at t h a t t im e , t h e tim e you m e n tio n e d , t h e S a tu r d a y osfore E aster?A Not on me p e r s o n a l l y . Now, can I answ er t h a t IPestion, Your Honor?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y In j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 382A
THE COURT: Y e s , go a h e a d .A The W itn e s s : I was in F l o r i d a and I a p p r e c ia t ethe fact t h a t t h e A lb a n y Movement d id a l lo w me a few d ay s to go in th e c e a s in g o f t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s . B u t I was called back f o r a d e m o n s tr a t io n w h ich o c c u re d i n f r o n t of the C ity H a l l on S a tu r d a y b e fo r e E a s t e r m o rn in g . And I le ft the p la c e w here I was on v a c a t io n and d ro v e b a c k here to be h e re on E a s t e r M o rn in g , t o s e e and t r y to direct th e f o r c e s o f my d e p a rtm e n t i n t h e s e t h i n g s ,Q, M r. H o l lo w e l l : You d o n ’ t know a n y th in g o f y o u r own knowledge t h a t happened on t h e S a tu r d a y b e fo r e E a s t e r because you w e ren ’ t h e r e , I s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ?A O nly w hat was r e l a t e d to me by members o f mypersonnel o f my D e p a r tm e n t .Q Now, t h e r e w e r e , by y o u r t e s t im o n y , a number o f citizens who c a l l e d and came by and o f f e r e d and s u g g e s te d violence, o f f e r e d to a s s i s t and s u g g e s te d t h e u s e o f violence by y o u r D e p a rtm e n t: Now, who w ere any o f th o s e folk th a t you can t h i n k o f ?A T h e se come t o me i n c o n f i d e n t i a l m anner, Y o u r Honor, and I r e f u s e to answ er t h a t q u e s t io n , b e c a u s e i t would be b r e a k in g a c o n fid e n c e t h a t was p u t i n me by o t h e r People, MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , I su b m it th a t th e r e i s no p r i v i l e g e w h ich he h as as th e C h i e f o f P o lic e i n t h i s k in d o f a s i t u a t i o n u n d e r any law o f e v id e n c e t h a t I know.
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THE COURT: Y e s , C h i e f , I t h i n k t h a t t h a twould n ot be a p r i v i l e g e d m a t t e r ; i f p e rs o n s came to you and made s u g g e s t io n s o f t h a t , I t h i n k t h a t you would be r e q u ir e d t o g i v e him t h a t in f o r m a t io n .A The W itn e s s : T h e re was one man, Y o u r H o n or,who cone to me and o f my own k n ow led ge I c a n ' t remember the name. He was from N ew ton, B a k e r C o u n ty ; and 1*11 h ave to search my f i l e s t o f i n d h i s name w h ich I h a v e , b u t I don't know I t now; and i f I had t o t e l l y o u , I c o u l d n 't if I had t o . B ut I h a v e t h i s on f i l e .Q Mr. H o l lo w e l l : And you w i l l p ro d u ce t h i s during th is t r i a l ?A I f i t ' s in my f i l e , I c e r t a i n l y w i l l .Q Now, who e l s e ?A The o t h e r s w ere by te le p h o n e and I c o u l d n 't sa y who they w ere, b e c a u s e I d o n 't know —Q D id th e y - e x c u s e me —A — b e c a u s e I d o n 't know w h e th e r th e y - who th e y Werej tney ta lk e d t o me by p h o n e , and by phone I t a lk e dto anc3 t o ld them t o d is c o u r a g e a n y t h in g , n o t t o doanything.Q D id th e y g i v e t h e i r nam es?A No, th e y d i d n ' t .Q Would you c a t e g o r i z e t h e s e as p ra n k c a l l s th e n ?A You c o u ld c o n s t r u e them a s t h a t . I was t a k in g
681 as caH s w h ich c o u ld be e i t h e r w ay, I d i d n ' t know.^ You g e t many p r a n k c a l l s , do you n o t?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 384a
A We r e c e i v e a num ber o f c o m p la in t s t h a t a r e n o t found to be j u s t .Q D id you keep a r e c o r d o f t h e s e c a l l s ?A No, I d i d n ' t .Q D id you s e e k to a r r e s t th e i n d i v i d u a l who offered v io le n c e ?A I ask e d t h e i r l o c a t i o n a s t o w here th e y w ere and they d id n o t t e l l m e.Q T h is i s t h e man from Newton?A No, t h i s man d id n o t come to me and sa y t h a t he was. He come t o me and o f f e r e d me b u l l e t s and g u n s , which I re fu s e d and t o l d him I had no need f o r , t h a t we had plenty o f p o l i c e e q u ip m e n t; and we d id n o t w ish t o u s e anything he had o r n eeded a n y t h in g w h ich he h a d ,Q D id you r e t a i n t h e am m unition and th e guns t h a t he brought?A He d id n o t b r in g a n y .Q You j u s t s a id he d id ?A No, I d i d n ’ t . I s a id t h a t he o f f e r e d b u t heaid not b r in g to me any i n p e r s o n . He r e la t e d to me by conversation i f i needed them t h a t he had i t . I d id n o t see any in p e r s o n .Q D id he i n d i c a t e how much o f i t he had?A I d o n ’ t r e c a l l a s he d i d , n o .Q W e ll , why d i d n ' t you go to s e e him?A T h is was i n a c o u n tr y w h ich was o u t o f my j u r i s diction and i f he had any down i n Newton o r B a k e r C o u n ty ,i nad no a u t h o r it y t o d e a l w it h i t .
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q Did you c a l l i t to t h e a t t e n t i o n o f S h e r i f f
Johnson?A I d id n o t .q Why n o t ?A I t was o u t o f my c o u n ty and I had no j u r i s d i c t i o n
in the m atter. The man t h a t I t a lk e d t o , I knew t h a t he knew my s i t u a t io n and I f e l t t h a t t h e r e was no need t o .Q W e ll , y o u ’ ve s e n t some o f y o u r p r is o n e r s t h a t
you have a r r e s te d p u r s u a n t t o some o f t h e s o - c a l l e d demonstrations dorm to th e j a i l in B a k e r C o u n ty , h a v e n ’ t you?A I have and I w ould l i k e t o e x p la in t h a t . We have personnel o f th e A lb a n y P o l i c e D ep artm en t s t a t io n e d with these p e o p le . They h a v e been w e ll ta k e n c a r e o f ,
well fed and w e ll ta k e n c a r e o f in t h e i r s t a y down t h e r e , and they are now t h e r e .MR. RAWLS: Y o u r H o n o r, we i n s i s t a g a inthat c o u n s e l i s g o in g f a r beyond h i s p r i v i l e g e o f cross e x a m in a tio n o f t h i s w it n e s s on what was b ro u g h t out by r e d i r e c t .THE.COURT: Y e s , i t i s g o in g r a t h e r f a r .Q Mr. H o l lo w e l l ; So t h a t , a s a m a t te r o f f a c t , then you have n o t had a l a r g e crowd o f p e o p le o f f e r i n g violence? THE COURT: W e ll now, c o u n s e l , t h a t ’ ssimply —MR. HOLLOWELL: I t h in k t h e r e c o r d w i l l show f o£* i t s e l f .
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THE COURT: T h a t 's w hat I was g o in g to s a y .That's a r g u m e n ta t iv e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't t h in k t h e r e a r e anyfurther q u e s t io n s a t t h i s t i m e , C h i e f .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , a n y t h in g f u r t h e r ?MR. KELLEY: N o th in g f u r t h e r . A sk M issEvelyn Courson to come I n , p l e a s e .M ISS EVELYN COURSON2nd w it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn In b e h a lf o f P l a n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. LEYERETT:Q S t a t e y o u r nam e, p le a s e ma'm?A E v e ly n C o u r s o n .Q M iss C o u r s o n , w here do you r e s id e ?A 1002 7 th A v e n u e , A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .Q And what I f any I s y o u r o f f i c i a l p o s i t i o n ,
Please ma'm?A O rd in a ry o f D o u g h e rty C o u n ty .Q I d i d n ' t g e t t h a t , I 'm s o r r y .THE COURT: L e t ' s h a v e o r d e r in c o u r t .There's to o much t a l k i n g o v e r h e r e . I d o n 't know where th e n o is e i s com ing fr o m . I w ant t h i s b u s in e s s ° f g oin g and com ing i n and o u t h e ld u n d e r some c o n tr o l, as i t c r e a t e s to o much c o n f u s io n , com ing and g o in g d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e p r o c e e d in g s . Byth is tim e i t s h o u ld be g e n e r a l l y u n d e r s t o o d , a lt h o u g h no announcement h a s been made o f i t , t h a t we o r d i n a r i l y take a r e c e s s ab o u t e v e r y h o u r and a h a l f ; and I
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 387A
s u g g e s t t h a t any p e rs o n who d o e s n o t in te n d t o remain in h e r e u n t i l th e n e x t r e c e s s p e r io d j u s t s t a y out u n t i l t h e r e c e s s p e r i o d . I do n o t mean t o im p ose th at as a r i g i d r u l e b u t I w i l l a p p r e c ia t e th e c o o p e r a tio n o f e v e ry b o d y i n e l i m i n a t i n g so much g o in g in and coming o u t d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f o u r p r o c e e d in g s .Go ahead „Q, M r. L e v e r e t t : You s t a t e d you a r e th e O r d in a r yof Dougherty C ou n ty?A Y e s .Q How lo n g h a v e you h e ld t h a t p o s i t i o n , p le a s e ma’ m A 9 i y e a r s ,Q M iss C o u r s o n , a s a p a r t o f th e d u t i e s o f y o u r office, do you is s u e p i s t o l - t o t e r * s l i c e n s e s ?A Y e s , I d o .Q P u rs u a n t t o r e q u e s t o f t h e C i t y M an ager, have you made a stu d y o f y o u r r e c o r d s ?A Y e s .Q To d e te r m in e t h e number o f s u ch l i c e n s e sissued d u rin g th e l a s t y e a r ?A Y e s , I h a v e .Q Can you t e l l me how many su ch l i c e n s e s , M issCoupon, were is s u e d i n th e month o f J u l y , i 960?MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I submit t h a t t h e r e w ould be no r e le v a n c e w h a ts o e v e r to t h i s s i t u a t i o n as t o th e number o f p i s t o l l i c e n s e s which have been i s s u e d . The p re su m p tio n w ould be th a t i f a p i s t o l l i c e n s e was i s s u e d , i t was is s u e d
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 72? 338A
pursuant to t h e law s o f th e S t a t e o f G e o r g ia , and t h a t a l l such p e r s o n s d id i n f a c t q u a l i f y ; and I s e e a b so lu te ly no r e l e v a n c y ,THE COURT: W e l l , I d o n 't know how i t ' srelevant y e t , I w i l l a l lo w t h e answ er and s e e how i t t i e s i n . I f i t d o e s n ’ t t i e i n some w ay, I w i l l exclude i t ,Q Mr. L e v e r e t t : In J u l y o f i 960, M iss C o u rson ?A 5 .MR, HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , i 960,J u l y i 960: t h e r e ' s n o t h in g i n t h i s t r i a l t h a t goes back t o t h a t p e r io d o f t im e ; and I su b m it f u r t h e r , since t h i s h a s now been p u t i n s in c e o u r c o l l o q u y , that th e r e w ould be no r e le v a n c e to a n y t h in g in i 960.THE COURT: W e l l , I 'm g o in g to a l lo w th etestim ony and s e e , d e p e n d in g upon w hat he s e e k s to develop. I d o n ’ t know y e t what i t i s . I f we d e t e r mine i t ' s n o t r e l e v a n t , w e’ l l s t r i k e i t , b u t I ' l l admit i t f o r th e t im e b e i n g ,Q Mr. L e v e r e t t : W i l l you s t a t e y o u r answ er tothe question?A J u l y , i 960, t h e r e w ere 1 0 .Q What a b o u t , j u s t t a k e th e m onths In o r d e r thereafter, p le a s e ma'm?A J u l y i 960 was 10; A u g u st was 9 ; Sep te m b er - 3; October - 4. November - 5 ; D ecem ber - 5 ; Ja n u a r y o f ’ 6l - you want to go i n t o »6l ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 389A
q Y e s , p le a s e m a’ m?A There was 1 4 ; F e b r u a r y f 6l was 11; *6l - 4; April * 6l - 6; May ! 6l - I S ; Ju n e ' 6 l - 8 ; J u l y *61 - 7 ;August «6l - 12; S e p te m b e r ' 6l - 12; O c to b e r 6l - 13;November ’ Si - 20.THE COURT: How many?The W itn e s s : ' 20 ; D ecem ber 61 - 34;January *62 -2 4 ; F e b r u a r y *62 - 1 8 ; M arch '6 2 - 15;April '62 - 14; May '6 2 - 15; Ju n e 62 - 11; J u l y '6 2 -
37. MR. LEVERETT: T h a t 's a l l .NR. HOLLOWELL: Now, may i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,I move t h a t t h e te s t im o n y be s t r i c k e n as n o t b e in g in any w ise r e l e v a n t t o t h i s c a s e w h a ts o v e r , n o r has th e re been i n any m anner any t i e - i n w ith a n y th in g which has been gone I n t o i n t h i s t r i a l . N o th in g h as been shown as to any r e l a t i o n s h i p betw een th e is s u a n c e of perm its to a n y t h in g t h a t i s germ ane t o t h i s t r i a l .And I subm it t h a t i t h a s no p l a c e , i t i s i r r e l e v a n t and i t i s Im m a te r ia l and t h a t i t s h o u ld be s t r i c k e n .There h a s n 't b een any i n d i c a t i o n , f o r i n s t a n c e , to whom th ey w ere i s s u e d . A l l t h a t h a s come i n I s th e fact th a t th e y may h a v e been is s u e d o r th e y w ere i s s u e d .Mr. Ho11owe1 1 : And t h i s I s o f no r e le v a n c e whatsoever and i t c e r t a i n l y h a s n o t been t i e d i n .THE COURT; M r. L e v e r e t t ?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , one o fthe is s u e s i n t h i s c a s e i s th e f a c t t h a t t h e P l a n t i f f s
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 390A
contend t h a t D e fe n d a n t 's c o n d u c t h a s e x c i t e d a s t a t eof te n s io n , a s t a t e t h a t c o u ld e r u p t and e x p lo d einto im m ediate v i o l e n c e ; and we t h i n k t h a t t h i s i sone o f th e ways by w h ich s u c h a m a tte r - one c ir c u m s t a n c eby which su ch a m a t t e r c o u ld be d e m o n s tr a te d .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I w ould say fu r t h e r t h a t , t h e r e h a v in g been no i m p l i c a t i o n as to whom o r f o r w hat r e a s o n t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r l i c e n s e s were is s u e d , i t w ould be a b s o l u t e l y o f no m a t e r i a l i t y in t h is p a r t i c u l a r c a s e . They may h a v e been is s u e d to business men. They may h a v e been Is s u e d to p o lic e m e n .They may have been I s s u e d to p r i v a t e d e t e c t i v e s . And I say t h a t i t h a s a b s o l u t e l y no r e f e r e n c e o r no r e l e vancy and i t h a s n o t been t i e d i n s u f f i c i e n t l y w it h any matter w h ich i s t h e s u b j e c t m a tte r o r b a s i s o f t h i s s u it , to be a b le to be a d m it t e d .THE COURT: We d o n 't h ave a ju r y h e r e andX w il l adm it i t f o r w h a te v e r i t ' s w o r th , f o r w h a te v e r weight I t h in k i t s h o u ld h a v e i n c o n s id e r in g th e i s s u e .THE COURT: A n y th in g f u r t h e r from t h i s w it n e s s ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't t h in k we have any questions f o r t h i s w i t n e s s ,THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , you may go down.
MR. A L . MORRIS3rd w it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn in b e h a lf o f P l a n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e d
taring on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 391ADIRECT EXAMINATIONMR. LEVERETT:q S t a t e y o u r name and r e s i d e n c e , p le a s e s i r ?A A1 M o r r is , 1020 L i n c o l n , A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .q Speak u p , p le a s e s i r , so th e p e o p le b a c k h e r e can hear you?A A l M o r r is , 1020 L i n c o l n , A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .q Mr. M o r r is , w hat i s y o u r o c c u p a t io n ?A I am o f f i c i a l l y o c c u p ie d a s an a n n o u n c e r- salesman at R adio S t a t i o n WALG.MR. HOLLOWELL: E x c u s e me, s i r , t h e w it n e s s 'voice d r i f t s o f f a t t h e end and I f in d i t d i f f i c u l tto understand h im .A. The W itn e s s : I 'm o c c u p ie d a s a r a d ioannouncer-salesman a t R a d io S t a t i o n W A L G .Q Mr. L e v e r e t t : M r. M o r r is , I c a l l y o u r a t t e n t i o nk the month o f D ecem b er, 196l , and a s k you w h e th e r o r n o t you had o ccasion to be o u t a t S h i lo h C hu rch d u r in g t h a t month?A Yes s i r , 1 d i d .Q What was t h e p u rp o se o f y o u r b e in g o u t t h e r e ?A We have - we w ere under-m anned a t th e tim e and
1 was asked to h e lp In t h e News D ep artm en t to c o v e r m e e tin g s for news fo r th e R a d io S t a t i o n ,Q What was g o in g on o u t a t t h e S h i lo h C h u rch a t ^at time?A We were t o l d th e y w ere h a v in g a mass m e e tin g ,ls wha.t th e y c a l l e d i t , and we a tte n d e d th e mass
feting.
searing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 7 2 ? 392A
q W e ll , d id in f a c t o r w ere in f a c t m ass m e e tin g s being held out th e r e ?A Yes s i r , t h e r e w e re .Q Under th e a u s p ic e s o f w hat o r g a n i z a t i o n s :A The A lb a n y M ovem ent.Q Mr. M o r r is , do you know any o f t h e D e fe n d a n ts in this case, W yatt T ee W a lk e r , R a lp h A b e r n a th y , R e v . M a r tin Luther King, D r . W. G . A n d erso n ?A I know them o n ly when I s e e th e m . O f c o u r s e ,I don't know them p e r s o n a l l y , b u t I do know th em , y e s s i r . when I see them.Q At any tim e i n D ecem ber d id you s e e any o f t h e s e Defendants out th e r e a t S h i l o h C h u rch ?A Yes s i r .Q What w ere th e y d o in g t h e r e , i f a n y th in g ?A They w ere s p e a k in g a t th e m e e t in g s .Q S p e a k in g to t h e g ro u p t h e r e ?A Yes s i r .Q Do you r e c a l l e v e r h a v in g seen t h e D e fe n d a n t ,' H u rle y , o u t a t S h i l o h C h u rch ?A Yes s i r . ̂ Do you know a p p r o x im a te ly when t h a t was?A That was on a F r id a y i n D ecem b er. I w o u ld n 't ^ the exact d a t e , a s i t ' s been q u it e a. w h i l e . ̂ Did she p a r t i c i p a t e i n th e m e e tin g ?MR. HOLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h a t ' sf a d in g .MR. LEVERETT: I ' l l r e p h r a s e th e q u e s t io n
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o , 727 393A
q W hat, i f a n y t h in g , d id sh e do w h ile you werethere?A She sp o k e t o t h e g rou p t h a t was p r e s e n t t h a tnight, q Who in t r o d u c e d h e r ?A She was in tr o d u c e d by th e p r e c e d in g s p e a k e r . q Do you r e c a l l who t h a t was?A D r . A b e r n a th y , I b e l i e v e ; I 'm n o ̂ to o s u r e .Q Do you r e c a l l was sh e in tr o d u c e d i n any p a r t i c u l a r manner?A W h a tev er h e r o f f i c i a l c a p a c i t y i s w it h th eNAACP. Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w ere you p r e s e n t when sh e made her remarks t o th e ' g ro u p ?.A Y e s s i r .Q And do you r e c a l l any o f th o s e rem arks?A Some o f th e m , s i r ; n o t q u o t e s . I c o u ld n ’ t q u o tethem. Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w ould you s t a t e t o th e C o u rt what she stated a t t h a t tim e ?A in b r i e f , sh e g a v e a s p e e c h ; she had been to Albany b e fo r e , sh e s a id b a c k d u r in g th e War d a y s ; and sh e said th at she was prou d t o s e e t h a t th e A lb a n y N egro had wised up. And sh e t o l d them t h a t sh e was th e r e as a rep resen tative o f t h e NAACP t o a s s u r e them t h a t th e y were behind th em , " t h a t we a r e b e h in d you 100 p e r c e n t . " , something o f t h a t n a t u r e . I w o u ld n ’ t — l i k e I s a y ,1 co u ld n 't q u o te h e r . And sh e went on and sp oke f u r t h e r
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No* 727 3 9** A
THE COURT: C o u n s e l, can you h e a r th ew itness?MR, HOLLOWELL: N ot to o w e l l , s i r .The W it n e s s ; I 'm s o r r y ,THE COURT: S p e a k u p , M r. M o r r is , so ev e ry b o d ycan h e a r y o u .A The W itn e s s ; Sh e w ent on and spoke o f th epower o f th e d o l l a r and t h e pow er o f th e v o t e s ; and sh e told the Negroes who w ere p r e s e n t t o r e g i s t e r to v o te and to withhold t h e i r money from c e r t a i n p l a c e s .Q M r, L e v e r e t t ; Now, do you know t h e D e fe n d a n tCharles Jo n e s , C h a r l i e Jo n e s ?A Y es s i r , I h ave se e n h im . I d o n 't know himpersonally.Q, Do you r e c a l l w h e th e r o r n o t he e v e r made any speeches out t h e r e a t t h e C h u rch ?A Yes s i r , he d i d .Q Do you r e c a l l w hat he s t a t e d a t t h a t tim e ?A He h a s a p p e a re d a t more th a n one m e e t in g .MR. HOLLOWELL; A t what tim e ?Q M r. L e v e r e t t ; T h is was i n Decem ber?A In D ecem b er. I d o n 't r e c a l l e v e r h e a r in g Charles Jo n es s p e a k i n D ecem b er.Q Have you h e a rd him s p e a k a t any o t h e r tim e ?A Y es s i r , d u r in g th e month o f J u l y .Q T h is y e a r ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 395A
q Do you r e c a l l w h ich day i t w as?A No s i r , I d o n ' t . I r e c a l l one o r tw o . L ik e Isaidj th e re ’ s been q u it e a few m e e tin g s t h a t I ’ ve h e a rd him
speak a t . One i n p a r t i c u l a r I r e c a l l t h a t he sp oke a t ,
that I heard . I d o n ’ t r e c a l l a l l o f th em , b u t I ’ ve h eard
2 or 3 *Q Do you r e c a l l a n y t h in g t h a t he s t a t e d i n any speech th a t he made d u r in g t h e m onth o f J u l y ?A Y es s i r , I d o .Q Would you r e l a t e t h a t , p le a s e s i r ?A I t h in k t h e f i r s t tim e I a c t u a l l y l i s t e n e d .The news fo llo w s D r . K in g and D r . A b e rn a th y arid we w ere interested in t h e i r s t a t e m e n t s . S o , we d i d n ' t l i s t e n to all of h is s p e e c h e s . B u t th e f i r s t tim e I r e c a l l C h a r le s Jones speaking to th e g r o u p , I b e l i e v e , was one d ay around noon and he was s p e a k in g a b o u t a p i c n i c t h a t was f o r t h coming at T i f t P a r k . And t h e o n l y , th e o t h e r o c c a s io n I recall was th e n i g h t o f th e l i f t i n g o f th e i n j u n c t i o n .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , go ah ead ?A He sp o k e b r i e f l y . A c t u a l l y , D r . K in g and D r . Abernathy had spoken e a r l i e r * . They w ere th e fe a t u r e d speakers and, as I s a i d , we w ere g e t t i n g re a d y t o wrap UP the m eeting a f t e r th e y had sp o k en ; b u t he sp oke b r i e f l y to the crowd and t o l d o f t h e e x p e r ie n c e s in F e d e r a l C o u rt taat dayj and t o l d a b o u t th e i n j u n c t i o n t h a t had been ■^ted, and went o n ; and he s a id t h a t some o f th e N egro es had Sotten a l i t t l e a n x io u s and some o f them who were
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 396a
planning on d e m o n s tr a t in g w ere p la n n in g on g o in g a h e a d ,
and that D r. K in g and D r . A b e rn a th y w ere o v e r i n th e o t h e r
church tr y in g t o t a l k t o th em , and th e y w ould l a t e r be le d
through, so t h a t th e y m ig h t g a i n In num ber.q Led th r o u g h w here?A We w ere In M t. Z io n a t t h i s t im e .Q M t. Z io n a t t h i s tim e and th e y w ere o v e r - he was referrin g to t h e f a c t t h a t D r s . A b e rn a th y and K in g were over in S h i lo h ?A Y es s i r , he s a id t h a t th e y w ere o v e r i n th e o t h e r church t a lk in g to th e h u n d re d , he s a id a p p r o x im a te ly 100 .He did not g iv e any s e t f i g u r e . I t h i n k he s a id a p p r o x imately - I'm s u re he s a id - a p p r o x im a te ly 1 0 0 . He s a id that they would be le d th r o u g h th e c h u r c h and down th e aisles in o rd e r t o g a in i n num b er. And he went on t o sa y something about he d i d n ' t w ant t o d is a p p o in t th e l o c a l law enforcement a u t h o r i t i e s o r so m e th in g o f t h a t n a t u r e , hke I s a id , th e r e a g a i n , I c a n ' t q u o te i t e x a c t l y .I have, In o t h e r w o rd s , we ta p e d t h e s e m e e tin g s I'v e l is t e n e d t o them s i n c e and t h a t ’ s how - I do remember him s a y in g t h a t th e y w ere g o in g th r o u g h th e church and on th e o u t s i d e .Q Now, you s a y t h a t you d id p r e p a r e ta p e s o f some °f the speakers on some o f t h e s e o c c a s io n s ?A Yes s i r , w e 'v e k e p t - we h a v e ta p e s o f th e entire m e e tin g s.Q D id you make th e r e c o r d in g s y o u r s e l f o r w ere th e y Blâ e Under yo u r s u p e r v is io n o r i n y o u r p r e s e n c e ?
.gjing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 397A
A Y es s i r , I made a l l o f th e r e c o r d i n g s , e i t h e r iyself or Johnny B . We d id i t t o g e t h e r , I m ean, a boy wto works at th e S t a t i o n *q Were th e m ik e s - e x c u s e me, go a h e a d .A We d id i t t o g e t h e r , In o t h e r w o rd s , t h e two o f u s .q What ty p e o f eq u ip m en t d id you u t i l i z e inmaking these ta p e s ?A W e l l , a m ic r o p h o n e , o f c o u r s e , and an Ampex tape recorder.Q Ampex ta p e r e c o r d e r ?A Yes s i r .Q Does t h a t d e v ic e make an a c c u r a t e r e c o r d in g o fwhat is played o r s a id i n i t s p r e s e n c e ?A Yes s i r , I t ' s su p p o sed to be th e b e s t In th e business.Q A l l r i g h t s i r , do you h a v e su ch a ta p e w ith you today?A Yes s i r , I d o . I do n o t - I h a v e a copy o f the tape*Q D id you make t h e cop y o f t h e ta p e y o u r s e l f ?A Y e s s i r , I d i d .Q I s t h i s an a c c u r a t e r e c o r d in g ?A Y es s i r .Q O f t h e o r i g i n a l as i t t r a n s p ir e d i n t h e c h u rc h ?A Y es s i r .Q When was t h i s r e c o r d in g m ade, t o th e b e s t o f your* C o lle c t io n , M r. M o r r is ?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 393AHearing
A T h is p a r t i c u l a r r e c o r d in g t h a t I was r e q u e s te d to bring was made i n D ecem b er, I mean r a t h e r J u l y , th e 1 6 th of July, X b e l i e v e .q Of t h i s y e a r ?A Yes s i r .q And whose v o ic e - w it h t h e C o u r t ’ s p e r m is s io nI would l ik e to a s k t h i s w it n e s s to p la y h i s ta p e - F i r s t , let me ask you t h i s : Whose v o ic e d o e s t h i s ta p e p o r t r a y at the o u tset?A A t th e o u t s e t o f th e t a p e , I h a v e n ’ t g o t I tcued up but a t th e o u t s e t o f th e ta p e w i l l be D r . W. G . Anderson, There i s a l s o t h e v o ic e o f R a lp h A b e r n a th y , and that would be th e o n ly two v o ic e s I h a v e on i t w it h m e.MR. LEVERETT: I w ould l i k e th e C o u r t 's p e r m is sion to have t h e w it n e s s d e m o n s tr a te by p l a y i n g t h i s tape a t t h i s t im e , i f i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t .Q I m ig h t s u g g e s t t h a t a f t e r one v o ic e f i n i s h e s ,you stop and i d e n t i f y who t h a t was b e fo r e you s t a r t on another. . , (W itn e s s s e t t i n g up t r a n s i s t o r r e c o r d e r to Play tape r e fe r r e d t o ) . , .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , p r o c e e d ,A ( P la y in g t a p e : ,!We had a man t o come I n t o o u r midst in Decem ber, h a v in g a b u r n in g d e s i r e to j o i n w ith freedom lo v in g p e o p le th r o u g h o u t t h i s N a t io n , who was S p e lle d to come b a c k i n J u l y . . . when we saw t h a t Justice had d ie d i n t h e C i t y o f A lb a n y i n t h e R e c o r d e r ’ s Courtroom on T u esd ay M o rn in g , J u l y 1 0 . Ane he came up
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 399k
to w , and he s a i d , " D r . A n d e rs o n , I came t o A lb a n y to march, and I w i l l m arch and nobody w i l l be i n my w a y ." )Q M r. L e v e r e t t : A l l r i g h t , s i r , whose v o ic ewas that?A W. G . A n d e r s o n .Q A l l r i g h t , now whose v o ic e i s com ing up n e x t , please s ir ?A I t w i l l be R everen d A b e r n a th y , I b e l i e v e .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w i l l you p ro ce e d w ith t h a t ?A (W itn e s s p l a y i n g t a p e : R e v . A b e rn a th y le a d in gcongregation in s i n g i n g so n g " I a i n ’ t gonna l e t nobody turn me 'r o u n d " , , . , )Q Whose v o i c e was t h a t l e a d i n g th e s i n g i n g , M r. Morris?A T h a t was R e v . A b e r n a th y .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , do you h ave any more th e r e ?A Y es s i r .Q A l l r i g h t , w hose v o ic e w i l l t h i s be?A R e v , A b e r n a th y .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w i l l you p ro ce e d to p la y t h a t ?THE COURT: What d a t e i s t h i s ?A The W itn e s s : The same d a t e , s i r .THE COURT: A re a l l o f t h e s e t h e same d a t e ?The W itn e s s : Y e s s i r . (W itn e s s p la y in gWhen I p u t h e r on th e p la n e t h i s m orn ing In Want a , j t o ld h e r to go on up t h e r e w ith h e r s h o u ld e r s
Atape: "
tack Aftd h e r head h i g h , and to t e l l th e p e o p le o f t h i s
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 400A
Ration th at th e N e g ro e s o f t h e S o u th and t h e N e g ro e s o f Albany are d e te rm in e d t o b e f r e e in t h i s g e n e r a t io n , and
that we are d e te rm in e d t o l e t nobody tu r n u s a r o u n d ." )q Mr. L e v e r e t t : Mas t h a t R e v . A b e rn a th y t h e r e ?A Y es s i r .q A l l r i g h t s i r , do you h a v e any more?A One m o re, s i r .Q And whose v o ic e w i l l t h i s b e ?A R e v . A b e r n a th y ,Q, A l l r i g h t ?A (W itn e s s p l a y i n g t a p e ; "We’ ve been w a it in g alongtime fo r freed om and w e’ ve . . . i t now. Our b la c k brothers, our f a t h e r s , d ie d on f o r e i g n b a t t l e f i e l d s , fighting to d e fe n d A m e r ic a . T h ey d ie d i n th e f o x h o le s and in the tr e n c h e s o f Norm andy, th e y d ie d on t h a t Sunday Morning a t P e a r l H a r b o r . And i f th e y c o u ld d i e in Europe and th e P a c i f i c T h e a t e r o f O p e r a t io n s , t o d e fe n d American, Why in th e d e v i l c a n ’ t some o f us d i e , i f n e c e s s a r y , here in Albany? They make me s i c k and t i r e d b u t I ’ v e seen ( a few negroes d ra w in g up s im p ly b e c a u s e th e y m ig h t h ave been hurt in th e s h u f f l e . " )Q A l l r i g h t s i r , i s t h a t a l l you h a v e now?A Yes s i r , t h a t ’ s a l l I h a v e now,Q Mr. M o r r is , how many p e o p le w ere i n th e c h u r c ha1: this tim e; do you h a v e any Id e a ?A I can o n ly s a y a p p r o x im a t e ly , s i r . I d i d n ’ t c°unt them.
taring on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 401A
q Was i t f u l l o r any v a c a n t s e a t s t h e r e ?A No s i r , i t was f u l l .q What a b o u t on t h e o u t s i d e , w ere any p e o p le on the outside o f th e c h u r c h ?A Yes s i r .q Do you h a v e any i d e a how many w ere on t h e o u t s id e of the church?A On t h e o u t s id e ? No s i r , I d o n ' t . T h e re was a lot of people o u t s i d e . I d o n 't know how m any. I c o u ld n ’ t say, We e stim a te d t h e cro w d , t h e e n t i r e cro w d , a t around
2,000. Q D id you t r a n s f e r t h e s e t a p e s from r e g u l a r ta p e recorder to th e s m a ll o n e , i n o r d e r to be a b le t o b r in g i t into the courtroom ?A Y es s i r , I d i d .MR. LEVERETT: A l l r i g h t , h e 's w ith y o u .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we move that th e w h ole t a p e and t h e in f o r m a t io n c o n ta in e d thereon, as I t h i n k h a s been p a r t i a l l y and o n ly p a r t ia l ly u n d e rs to o d by t h e r e p o r t e r , and c e r t a i n l y ty co u n se l s i t t i n g h e r e , be s t r i c k e n , f i r s t , on th e ground t h a t t h e r e i s an o r i g i n a l t a p e ; and i t becom es very a p p a re n t t h a t t h i s i s o n ly a co p y and t h a t t h i s fu rth e r i s o n ly a p a r t o f t h a t w h ich was on th e o r i g i n a l tape. N o. 2 , t h a t w h ich h a s been b ro u g h t h e r e i s ^ost u n f i t . I c o u ld n o t u n d e rs ta n d much o f i t a n d ,
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 402A
as I o b se rv e d th e r e p o r t e r , I d o n ’ t t h in k he was a b le to g e t i t . H e ’ s h e r e to s p e a k f o r h i m s e l f . And f o r th o se r e a s o n s I w ould su b m it t h a t th e w h ole ta p e r e c o r d in g s h o u ld b e c o m p le t e ly s t r i c k e n .MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h i si s n o t a d o cu m e n t. T h is i s a t r a n s c r i p t i o n o f a human v o ic e and I d o n 't t h in k i t i s s u b je c t to th e same r u le s g o v e r n in g d o c u m e n ts .THE COURT: I o v e r r u le th e o b j e c t i o n .CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR, HOLLOW E LL:Q, M r. M o r r is , y o u sa y "we made an e s t im a t e o f the number o f p e r s o n s who w ere t h e r e " ? Who was "w e"?A The o t h e r r e p o r t e r and m y s e lf .Q The o t h e r r e p o r t e r and y o u r s e l f , i s t h a t r i g h t ?A Y e s .Q Now, who was th e o t h e r r e p o r t e r ?A Jo h n n y B .M o s s e s .Q Who?A Jo h n n y B . M o s s e s , ( s p e l l i n g ) M ~ o-s~ s~ e-s.Q How lo n g h ave you been w o rk in g on t h i s jo b ?A You mean a t t h e r a d io s t a t i o n ?Q A t t h e r a d io s t a t i o n ?A I ’ ve been w it h t h e c h a in o f r a d io s t a t i o n for about fo u r y e a r s , b u t I ’ ve been w ith t h i s p a r t i c u l a r station f o r a p p r o x im a te ly - w e l l , s in c e t h e 1 s t d ay o r day o f November i n 19S i .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 403A
q what was y o u r f u n c t io n w it h t h e s e o t h e r s t a t i o n s ?A I was s p o r t s d i r e c t o r a t WAYX w it h t h e c h a in for three y e a rs o r l i t t l e o v e r t h r e e y e a r s .Q WAYS?A - X , In W a y c r o s s , G e o r g ia .Q In W a y c r o s s , G e o r g ia ?A Y e s .Q What e x p e r ie n c e h a v e you h a d , w h ich you f e e l qualifies you t o make an e s t im a t e o f th e num ber o f p e o p le that are lo c a te d o r s i t u a t e d i n th e d a r k on th e o u t s id e o f a church?A D r . W. G . A n d erso n s a id t h a t one c h u rc h s e a te d
850, I b e lie v e he s a i d , and t h e o t h e r s e a t e d 650; and he said "for th e b e n e f i t o f WALG", w h ich was me, " t h a t we have both o f them f u l l and s e v e r a l hundred o u t s i d e ,"So, I would assume t h a t i t was 850 p lu s 650, w h ich w ould be around 1500; and I w ould a ssu m e , I was o n ly g i v i n g my opinion and my e s t i m a t e ,Q I s e e . Now, d id you n o t s t a t e , h o w ev er, t h a t there were o n ly a b o u t 100 p e o p le o v e r i n th e c h u r c h a c r o s s the street? MR. LEYERSTT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , hedidn»t say t h a t .A The W itn e s s ; T h is was a n o th e r o c c a s i o n .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I ask e d him I f he s t a t e d t h a t ?A No s i r , t h i s was a n o th e r o c c a s i o n .Q T h is was a n o th e r o c c a s io n ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 4o4a
A R i g h t .q T h is i s n o t th e o c c a s io n t h a t you a r e t a l k i n g about, is th a t c o r r e c t ?A In o t h e r w o rd s , t h e e s t im a t e on th e crowd was on the night t h i s ta p e was made and th e e s t im a t e o f th e
100 people in th e o t h e r c h u r c h was on t h e n ig h t th e y demonstra ted , which was a l a t e r n i g h t , t h e l i f t i n g o f th e i n j u n c tion night, th e n ig h t t h a t t h e i n j u n c t i o n was l i f t e d .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't b e l i e v e t h e r e ’ s a n y t h in g else o f t h i s w i t n e s s .MR. LEVERRET: You may come down.THE COURT: Su p p ose we ta k e ab o u t a 10rqinute r e c e s s a t t h i s t im e .RECESS: 3 : 27 PM t o 3 :4 0 PMMR, LEVEKETT: May i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , b e fo r ep ro ce e d in g s , I t h i n k I s h o u ld c a l l t h e C o u r t ’ s a t t e n t i o n to the f a c t t h a t some o f th e te s t im o n y we e x p e c t to e l i c i t now w i l l b e r a t h e r v u l g a r and o b s c e n e ; a n d , i f th e re a r e any l a d i e s i n t h e co u rtro o m t h a t w ould lik e to r e t i r e , I t h i n k th e y sh o u ld b e g iv e n th e o p p o rtu n ity a t t h i s t i m e , i f th e C o u rt s e e s f i t .THE COURT: , , , A p p a r e n t ly nobody w is h e sto r e t i r e .
MR. LEVERBTT: C a l l R . A . JA N E LLE, p l e a s e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , we o b je ct to any te s t im o n y t h a t t h i s w it n e s s would
searing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 ^05A
have to g i v e , on t h e grou n d t h a t from tim e t o t im e during th e c o u r s e o f t h i s t r i a l t h i s w it n e s s h a s been stan d in g a t t h e d o o r l i s t e n i n g t o t h e t e s t im o n y .The same i s t r u e o f c e r t a i n o t h e r o f f i c e r s , a s w e ll as the w it n e s s , DAVID O 'SC O T T , who I s p r e s e n t ly s t a n d in g just o u t s id e t h e d o o r .THE COURT: A w it n e s s s t a n d in g o u t s id e t h a tdoor, even i f he w e r e , w h ich I d o n 't know w h e th e r he was or n o t, —MR. HOLLOWELL: I s e e him now and t h i s h a s been occurring from tim e t o t im e ,TEE COURT: *— was n o t i n th e co u rtro o m andcould n ot h e a r th e p r o c e e d in g s .MR. HOLLOWELL: He h a s been l i s t e n i n g a t th e door, s i r , and we h a v e a w it n e s s who w i l l b e a b le to t e s t i fy t h a t t h i s h a s been t r u e ; and we w ould su b m it that i t would be im p ro p e r f o r them u n d e r t h e r u l e s o f s e q u e s tr a tio n . And n o t o n ly t h i s b u t th e w it n e s s e s for the D e fe n d a n ts h a v e d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f t h e t r i a l teen r e q u ir e d to rem a in i n th e w it n e s s room , i f th e y were p r e s e n t h e r e a t c o u r t . And I su b m it t h a t th e testimony t h a t t h e s e w it n e s s e s would g iv e w ould be over o b je c t io n and t h a t i t sh o u ld n o t b e a d m itte d f o r the reaso n s s t a t e d .MR. LEVERETT: May I t p le a s e th e C o u r t , tobegin w it h , i f t h i s w it n e s s h a s been in th e h a l l , I Was not aware o f i t . N o .2 , t h e w it n e s s sh o o k h i s head
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o. 727
as i f to sa y he h a s n o t h e a rd any t e s t im o n y . And N o. 3I am n o t c e r t a i n b u t I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t t h i s w it n e s sw ill be c a l l e d upon t o t e s t i f y a s to any m a t te r t h a thas h e r e t o f o r e b een t e s t i f i e d t o .THE COURT: Su p p o se we c l e a r i t up t h i s way:MR. R . A . JANELLEw it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn In b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s * t e s t i f i e d
E THE COURT:Q M r. W itn e s s * h a v e yo u a t any tim e d u r in g t h e course o f th e t r i a l o f t h i s c a s e h e ard any o f t h e —• have you been p r e s e n t in t h e c o u rtro o m a t any tim e w h ile t h i s case was in th e c o u r s e o f b e in g t r i e d ?A No s i r .Q Second* h a v e you a t any tim e d u r in g t h e t r i a l of this case h e a rd any o f th e te s t im o n y t h a t h as p re ce d e d the testim ony w h ich you a r e ab o u t to g iv e ?A No s i r .MR. HOLLOWELL: Would th e C o u rt p e r m it c o u n s e lto d i r e c t q u e s t io n s t o him* s i r ?THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .V0IR DIRE - BY MR. HOLLOWELL:Q Have you a t any tim e been s t a n d in g a t t h e d o o r listening?A I h a v e been lo o k in g b u t I d i d n ' t l i s t e n .Q Beg p a rd o n ?A I was lo o k in g i n b u t I d id n ’ t l i s t e n ,Q You lo o k e d b u t d i d n ’ t l i s t e n ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 4Q7A
A T h a t 1s r i g h t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I b e l i e v e , Y o u r H o n o r, t h a t t h e witness was i n a p o s i t i o n to come t o t h a t d o o r and to look and he w ould be I n a p o s i t i o n t o h e a r th e testim o n y.THE COURT: L e t t h e r e c o r d show t h a t th emanner In w h ich t h i s c o u rtro o m i s c o n s t r u c t e d and the n a tu r e o f t h e d o o rs t o w h ich r e f e r e n c e h a s been made, w hich i s a s o l i d d o o r , s w in g in g d o o r s , w h ich has a g la s s a p e r t u r e i n I t th r o u g h w h ich a p e rso n could s e e , i s , i n t h e C o u r t 's o p in io n , a s t r u c t u r e of such a n a t u r e t h a t i t w ould n o t be p o s s i b l e f o r a person to s ta n d o u t s id e and r e c e iv e any i n t e l l i g e n t im pression o f w hat was b e in g s a id in t h e c o u r tr o o m .This i s e s p e c i a l l y t r u e , in t h e C o u r t 's o p in io n , because n o t o n ly w ould i t d i f f i c u l t to h e a r o u t there bu t i t i s d i f f i c u l t t o h e a r i n th e c o u r tr o o m .And in th e C o u r t ’ s o p in io n and t h e C o u r t ’ s ju d g m e n t, having in mind t h e p h y s i c a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s and t a k in g into c o n s id e r a t io n t h e p o s i t i v e te s t im o n y o f th e w itness h i m s e l f , th e w it n e s s w i l l be a llo w e d to t e s t i f y 3^d I o v e r r u le t h e o b j e c t i o n ,MR. HOLLOWELL: D oes t h e C o u rt w ant t o a l s o make i t a p a r t o f t h e r e c o r d t h a t t h e r e i s a t l e a s t a gap ° f not l e s s th a n a h a l f an in c h betw een th e s w in g in g doors.
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 408a
THE COURT: T h e re i s s u ch a gap betw een th eswinging d o o rs as w ould be n e c e s s a r y t o a l lo w t h e doors to a v o id s t r i k i n g e a c h o t h e r , w h a te v e r t h a t space I s .MR. HOLLOWELL: And w ould t h a t be l e s s th a n a h alf an I n c h , s i r ?THE COURT: I h a v e n o t m easured i t . L e t ’ ssimply l e t I t r e s t t h i s w ay: t h a t i n th e C o u r t 's judgment, v ie w in g th e p h y s i c a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s and having h eard t h e p o s i t i v e te s t im o n y o f th e w it n e s s , that th e w it n e s s w i l l be a llo w e d to t e s t i f y .BY MR. LEVERETT:Q. W il l you s t a t e y o u r name and a d d r e s s , p le a s e ?A Ray J a n e l l e , 1707 M e lr o e , A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .Q Mr. J a n e l l e , w hat i s y o u r o c c u p a t io n ?A D e t e c t iv e w it h t h e A lb a n y P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t.Q How lo n g h a v e you s e r v e d In t h a t c a p a c i t y ?A A p p r o x im a te ly two y e a r s .Q M r, J a n e l l e , I a s k you on J u l y 11 w h e th e r o r n o t y°u had an o c c a s io n t o be on d u ty o u t a t S h i l o h C hu rch?A I d i d .Q W il l you s t a t e to th e C o u rt w hat was g o in g onat that time a t th e S h i l o h C h u rch ?A T here was a b i g cro w d . The c h u rc h was f u l l .There was a b ig crowd on t h e s id e w a lk , and a t one tim e Wte a few came o u t o f t h e c h u r c h and jo in e d th e o th e r s on the s id e w a lk . We w ere a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t , m y s e lf and p o lic e o f f i c e r s .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e lir a in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 409A
q You w ere a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t w here?A A c r o s s from S h i l o h B a p t i s t C h u r c h , on th e northwest c o m e r ; and t h e C h u rch i s on th e n o r t h e a s t comer of W hitney and J e f f e r s o n .q Could you t e l l w h e th e r t h e c h u r c h was f u l l o r only p a r t ia lly f u l l ?A I t was f u l l .Q, What a b o u t on t h e s t r e e t s o u t f r o n t , do you have any id e a how many p e o p le w ere o u t f r o n t o r around the church?A A p p r o x im a te ly 200 on t h e s id e w a lk .Q What was g o in g on i n s i d e t h e c h u rc h ?A They w ere h a y in g a mass m e e t in g ,Q Did you s e e any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts o r i d e n t i f y any of them in t h e c h u rc h ?A One.Q Who was t h a t ?A S l a t e r K in g .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , now p ro c e e d and t e l l us w hathappened as t h i s crowd p ro c e e d e d o r r a t h e r t h i s grou p Proceeded out o f t h e c h u r c h t h a t y o u 'v e j u s t r e f e r r e d t o ?A W e ll , C h i e f P r i t c h e t t came t o t h e c h u r c h
m % s e lf , C a p ta in F r ie n d and C h i e f L a i r s e y fo llo w e dClllef P r itc h e t t i n t o th e c h u r c h . C h i e f L a i r s e y and m y s e lf eai,e out , t h in k in g t h a t C h i e f P r i t c h e t t and C a p ta in F r ie n d ei?e Dehind u s ; and we r e c e iv e d c a t - c a l l s ; and we s ta y e d Pretty c lo se to t h e c h u r c h w a it in g f o r C h i e f P r i t c h e t t , of c o u rs e , we h e a rd some p r e t t y bad la n g u a g e .
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 410A
q, A l l r i g h t s i r , w hat was th e crowd d o in g a t that time? Were th e y s t a n d in g s t i l l o r w ere th e y m i l l i n gabout?A M i l l i n g a b o u t and t a l k i n g . T h e re was one man especially - do you w ant me t o go ahead and s a y what —Q You may go ahead and s a y a n y t h in g t h a t you heard in y o u r p r e s e n c e ?A As C h i e f L a i r s e y and I w a lk e d , s t a r t e d w a lk in g across the s t r e e t , we h e a rd " y o u r m o t h e r - fu c k in g s o n - o f a - bitches, d o n 't you come b a c k on t h i s s id e o f th e s t r e e t " .Q Do you know t o whom th o s e rem arks w ere b e in g addressed?A I b e l i e v e i t was t o me and C h ie f L a i r s e y b e c a u s e we turned around and we h e a rd i t a g a in ? and some o f them in the crowd t r i e d t o g e t u s to come i n t o t h e cro w d , b u t we w ouldn't do i t .Q What d id th e y sa y t o you?A "Come on o v e r , come on o v e r " .Q How w ere th e y t a l k i n g when th e y s a id t h a t ?'•'feat manner o f v o ic e ?A L o u d .Q Were any g e s t u r e s made o f any s o r t ?A No s i r .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , d id you h e a r a n y t h in g e l s e o u tthere th a t n ig h t ?A We h e a r d , " L e t ' s g e t B ig R ed , l e t ' s g e t B ig R e d " ,
2 or 3 d i f f e r e n t t i m e s .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 411A
q And who i s t h a t , to whom w ere th e y r e f e r r i n g
i e n they made t h a t s t a t e m e n t , do you know?A O f f i c e r Red W i l l s , G rad y W i l l s . q A l l r i g h t s i r , now a t t h e tim e t h e s e rem arks «re made, what was t h e g e n e r a l a t t i t u d e o f th e crowd as far as you co u ld t e l l ?A I t h in k th e y w ere r e a d y f o r v i o l e n c e . One of them or two d i f f e r e n t v o ic e s k e p t s a y in g t h a t th e y Here tired o f t h i s t a l k i n g w it h C h i e f P r i t c h e t t and "let's f i g h t " . A n d , o f c o u r s e , I d o n ’ t know w h ich one It was that s a id t h a t .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I would o b je c t t o t h a t w h ole a n s w e r , u n le s s t h e r e is some more fo u n d a t io n th a n h a s a lr e a d y been l a i d , on the ground t h a t t h e r e h as been no fo u n d a t io n l a i d for an o p in io n t o t h e e f f e c t t h a t " I t h i n k th e y w ere "ready t o " , I ' v e f o r g o t t e n t h e word u s e d , w h a te v e r th e word w as. T h e re h a s been te s t im o n y t h a t he h e ard something com in g from two d i f f e r e n t p e r s o n s , c e r t a i n remarks; and c e r t a i n l y t h i s d o es n o t j u s t i f y t h e opinion e v id e n c e t h a t was s t a t e d .MR. LEVERSTTi May I t p le a s e t h e C o u r t , th e witness h a s s t a t e d t h a t he was p r e s e n t and o b se rv e d the crow d, t h a t he h e a rd th e rem arks m ade, and I t h in k that u n d er th e " c o l l e c t i v e f a c t s " r u l e t h a t i t would be im p o s s ib le f o r any w it n e s s to f u l l y d e s c r ib e th e Menacing e f f e c t o f a crowd o f p e o p le l i k e t h a t In
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 m2A
words t h a t w ould le a d up t o t h a t c o n c lu s io n , o t h e r than what t h e w it n e s s h a s d o n e .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h e r e i s no te s t im o n y t o t h e e f f e c t t h a t t h i s in fo r m a t io n or th e s e w ords w ere r e c i t e d a t t h e in s t a n c e o f any o f the D e fe n d a n ts , o r t h a t th e y w ere known by t h e D e fe n d ants o r t h a t th e y came from more th a n t h e two p e o p le th a t have been d e s c r ib e d ; a n d , t h e r e f o r e , t h i s i s no b a s is o r fo u n d a t io n f o r t h e sw ee p in g c o n c lu s io n t h a t was made by t h i s p a r t i c u l a r w it n e s s .THE COURT: W e l l , t r u e , t h e r e * s no e v id e n c eth a t any o f t h e s e named D e fe n d a n ts s a id t h e s e t h i n g s ; but I t i s e v id e n c e o f th e g e n e r a l s i t u a t i o n r e f e r r e d to in t h e P l a i n t i f f ' s co m p lain t,* and I ad m it i t f o r th a t p u r p o s e .MR, HOLLOWELL; May I a s k t h i s one q u e s t io n , s i r ; The c o m p la in t i s n o t e v id e n c e and I su b m it t h a t t h is w it n e s s w ould h a v e to make h i s s ta te m e n t b a se d upon th e e v id e n c e t h a t h a s been p u t i n by him ; and he has n o t p u t i n any to j u s t i f y s u ch a c o n c lu s i o n .THE COURT: W e l l , h e ’ s a p o l i c e o f f i c e r andhe was t h e r e i n th e m id d le o f th e th r o n g w h ich he d e s c r ib e d and had t h e f e e l o f t h e s i t u a t i o n ; and I th in k h e ’ d be q u a l i f i e d to e x p r e s s an o p in io n a b o u t i t .I w i l l a l lo w him t o do s o . I ad m it t h e t e s t im o n y .Q f i r . L e v e r e t t : Who was h o ld in g t h e m e e tin g^he c h u rc h a t t h a t t im e , O f f i c e r J a n e l l e ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 413A
A S l a t e r K in g , I o b s e rv e d him s p e a k in g . As f a r as who was th e l e a d e r , I c o u l d n 't t e l l y o u .q Was th e A lb a n y Movement h o ld in g t h e m e e t in g , o r do you know?A Yes s i r .Q Now, who i s Bo Ja c k s o n ?A H e 's t h e S e c r e t a r y , I b e l i e v e , o f th e A lb a n yftvement.Q Do you know w h e th e r o r n o t he was t h e r e a t t h i stime? A Y es s i r , he w a s .Q D id you h a v e o c c a s io n t o h e a r him make any remarks at t h a t tim e t o anybody?A No s i r .Q Was t h a t th e n ig h t t h a t C h i e f P r i t c h e t t wentin the church?A Y es s i r , i t i s .Q The p a r t y , J a c k s o n , was he th e r e a t t h a t t im e ?A Y es s i r .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we don't want him. t o le a d t h e w i t n e s s . T h e re h a s n 't been any te s t im o n y by t h i s w it n e s s t h a t th e C h ie f had gone i n t h e c h u r c h .THE COURT: H e 's p r o b a b ly j u s t t r y i n g toexpedite t h e m a t t e r , M r. H o l l o w e l l , You can r e p h r a s e the q u e s t io n .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727
Q, M r. L e v e r e t t : M r. J a n e l l e , s t a t e w h e th e r o rnot you saw C h i e f P r i t c h e t t t h a t n ig h t ?A Y es s i r , I d i d .Q What d id h e do?A He w ent i n s i d e th e c h u rc h t o s p e a k t o th e people, th a t he d id n o t w ant any v i o l e n c e .Q D id you go i n w ith him ?A Y es s i r , I d i d .Q D id you come o u t w ith him ?A No s i r , I came o u t a few m in u te s b e fo r e he d i d .Q And d id you have o c c a s io n to s e e him t a l k i n gto Bo Jackson a t any t im e t h a t n i g h t ?A I d o n 't remember i f I d id s e e him t a l k to h im .Q A l l r i g h t , s i r . Now, M r. J a n e l l e , I a s k youwhether1 or n o t on any s u b s e q u e n t o c c a s io n you were o u t at Keokee B a p t is t C h u rch ?A Y es s i r , I w a s .Q A l l r i g h t , s i r , w hat were you d o in g o u t t h e r e ?A O b s e r v in g and r i d i n g around th e c h u r c h and looking to s e e t h a t th e w h ite p e o p le s ta y e d aw ay.Q E x cu se me, w ould you r e p e a t t h a t , t h e answ er to the l a s t q u e s t io n , p le a s e s i r ?A J u s t o b s e r v in g t h e c h u r c h and m aking s u re t h a t
Linere was no t r o u b l e , s u ch as w h ite p e o p le com ing around the church, and so f o r t h .Q What was g o in g on i n s i d e th e ch u rch ?A They were h a v in g a mass m e e t in g .Q Who was h a v in g a mass m e e tin g ?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727Hearing 415A
A I'm n o t s u r e who i t i s . I c o u l d n 't t e l l you
Vs name tu t I b e l i e v e he was from T e n n e s s e e , some p r e a c h e r
from Tennessee. They had a d v e r t is e d i t t h a t n i g h t .q Was t h i s a m e e tin g o f th e A lb a n y Movement?A Y es s i r , i t w a s .q A l l r i g h t s i r , w ere you in th e p a t r o l c a r t h a t n ig hA Yes s i r .q A l l r i g h t s i r , t e l l what h app ened?A W e ll , as I was r i d i n g b y , I was headed e a s t onAlice, there was some c o lo r e d m a le s on th e s id e w a lk hanging over some c a r s , and one o f them a i d , "T h e re goes that w h ite s o n - — w h ite t r a s h y , m o th e r - fu c k in g detective".Q A l l r i g h t s i r , a n y t h in g e l s e s a id to you a t t h a ttime? A No s i r , I tu rn e d around and I came b a c k r i d i n g ty slow and one o f them s a i d , " i f you s to p h e r e lo n g enough, I 'v e g o t s o m e th in g i n my p o c k e t f o r y o u ." And I was by m y s e lf and I k e p t g o i n g .Q What to n e o f v o ic e d id he s p e a k in ?A L o u d , l i k e he m ea n t I t .Q D id he s p e a k in a f r i e n d l y to n e o f v o ic e o r n o t?A I w o u ld n 't s a y s o .Q Now, O f f i c e r J a n e l l e , I asked you w h eth er o rllot on any su b se q u e n t o c c a s io n s u b s e q u e n t to t h i s you e v e r Went back to S h i lo h C h u rch ?A Y e s , I d i d .Q F o r w hat p u rp o se ?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 416AHearing
A The same p u r p o s e , o b s e r v in g i t .q And w hat was g o in g on th e r e a t t h a t tim e ?A The A lb a n y Movement was h a v in g a mass m e e t in g . q When was t h i s - t h i s i s th e t h i r d o c c a s io n t h a t you've t e s t i f i e d a b o u t ~ do you r e c a l l what m onth t h i s was in?A J u l y .q Of t h i s y e a r ?A Yes s i r .Q, A l l r i g h t s i r , now you s a y a n o th e r m e e tin g was being held a t S h i lo h C h u rch ?A Yes s i r .Q How many p e o p le w ere In the c h u r c h ? Was i t f u l lor not?A i t was f u l l and p e o p le on th e s id e w a lk .Q On w h ich s id e w a lk ?A In f r o n t o f th e c h u r c h and on th e s i d e ; be onfee north s i d e , on th e n o r th s id e and on th e w est s id e of the church.Q T h at c h u r c h I s s i t u a t e d on th e c o m e r , i s i tnot? A Yes s i r .Q Do you know how many p e o p le w ere on the o u t s id e
there? A I would sa y a p p r o x im a t e ly , t h a t n ig h t a p p r o x im a te lyloo.
A And d id you r e c o g n iz e anybody in th e ch u rc h ? No s i r , I d id n o t .
gearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 417A
q Were any s p e e c h e s b e in g made o r what was g o in g on in there?A Somebody was s p e a k in g b u t I c o u l d n 't t e l l whoit was.q A l l r i g h t s i r , w ere you on f o o t o r w ere you In your p a tro l c a r ?A In a p a t r o l c a r w ith D ep u ty S h e r i f f M u r p h e y ..Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w hat h a p p e n e d , i f a n y t h in g , t h a tnight?A We w ere p r o c e e d in g w e st on W h itney when we cameup in front o f th e c h u r c h a t J e f f e r s o n ; we had to s to p f o ra stop sign and t h e r e w ere a g a in some c o lo r e d m a le s on th e sidewalk, and somebody in the crowd s a id " L e t 's tu r n th e mother-fuckers o v e r " .Q Do you know whom th e y w ere r e f e r r i n g to ?A They were lo o k in g s t r a i g h t a t u s .Q Now, r e t u r n in g t o t h i s f i r s t o c c a s io n t h a t youwe at the S h i lo h C h u rc h , M r. J a n e l l e , when C h i e f P r i t c h e t t drived on th e s p o t and w ent i n and came o u t , d id th e crowd disperse at t h a t i t i m e ?A No s i r , i t d id n o t .Q Did you c a l l t h e C h ie f t h e r e o r do you know who called him?A C h ie f L a i r s e y , I b e l i e v e .Q In y o u r p r e s e n c e ?A Y e s .Q Why was C h i e f P r i t c h e t t c a l l e d on t h e s c e n e a t ^ time?
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e lim in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 7 2 7 4l8A
A We w ere f e a r i n g v i o le n c e a f t e r t h e s e c a t - c a l l s and throw ing p e b b le s , com ing from t h e c h u r c h . We c o u l d n 't te ll which one was th r o w in g th em . And th e r e was a b i g crowd on the o u t s id e and v u l g a r t a l k i n g and so f o r t h . And I believe C h ie f L a i r s e y d e c id e d i t was tim e f o r C h ie f P r i t chett to see i f he c o u ld come o v e r t h e r e and t a l k to somebody.Q You s a y wha,fc w ere b e in g throw n?A P e b b le s , s m a ll r o c k s .Q A t whom?A W e l l , we w ere s t a n d in g on th e n o rth w e s t c o m e r of Je ffe r s o n and W h itn e y and th e y w ere b u i l d i n g a s e r v i c e station. T h a t 's a l s o on t h e n o r th w e s t co rn e r’ . And th e pebbles were h i t t i n g , I w ould s a y , a p p r o x im a te ly 10 f e e t away from u s .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , t h a t ' s a l l .CROSS EXAMINATION
W MR, HOLLOWELL:Q Now, J u l y 11 was n o t a n ig h t o r a day on w h ich there was any d e m o n s t r a t io n , t o y o u rrk n o w le d g e , I s n j t t h a t right?A I d o n 't rem em ber, n o t to my k n o w le d g e .Q And you sa y t h e r e w ere a p p r o x im a te ly 200 on th e sidewalk in f r o n t o f S h i l o h on t h a t n i g h t : I s n ' t i t tim eas a m a tte r o f f a c t , th e r e I s no s id e w a lk in f r o n t °f or on th e s id e o f S h i l o h , i t ' s j u s t a d i r t a r e a ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .Q J u s t a d i r t a r e a , th e r e i s no s id e w a lk ; andioat'g tru e on th e s id e and th e f r o n t ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 kl9A
A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .q p e o p le w a lk a l l o v e r t h a t t a r e a g e n e r a l l y , d o n 'tthey? A (No an sw er) . . »q Now, d id S l a t e r K in g o r any o f t h e o t h e rDefendants make any o f th e s ta te m e n ts t h a t you have referred to in y o u r d i r e c t e x a m in a t io n , t h e s e v u lg a r statements?A No, he d id n o t .Q T h at was t r u e on b o th o c c a s io n s a t S h i lo h and at the KLokee B a p t i s t C h u rch , i s n ' t t h a t t r u e ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q Was an o f f i c e r by th e name o f " B ig Red" t h e r e on the n ig h t o f th e 1 1 t h ?A He was on th e c o r n e r , he was on th e s o u th w e st corner in th e paddy w agon.Q You d i d n ' t a r r e s t anybody t h a t n ig h t In t h a t vicinity, d id y o u ?A No, I d id n o t .Q As a m a t te r o f f a c t , on th e l a s t o c c a s io n , I Relieve you s a id t h e r e w ere o n ly ab o u t 100 p e o p le t h e r e the church?A On th e w alk w ay, a s you c a l l i t .Q On t h e w alkw ay, and th e c h u rch I t s e l f was f u l l ?A I t w a s .Q And a t no tim e d id you h e a r any o f th e s t a t e -l,enta> fchese v u lg a r s t a t e m e n t s , r e f e r r e d t o In y o u r d i r e c t , y any of th e s e D e fe n d a n ts ?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 A20A
A No, I d id n o t .Q Nor d id you s e e o r h e a r them s u g g e s t to anyone that they make any s u c h s ta t e m e n t s ?A I d id n o t .Q Nor d id you make any d e t e r m in a t io n t h a t th o s e persons who made th o s e s ta te m e n ts w ere i n any way c o n n e c te d with the A lbany M ovem ent, d id you ? You made no d e te r m in a tion to th a t e f f e c t ?A I c o u l d n 't s a y b u t th e y w ere a t t h e C h u r c h .Q T h a t 's r i g h t , a t th e C h u rc h , b u t you made no determination as t o w h e th e r o r n o t th e y w ere In a f a c t apart o f th e A lb a n y Movement?A I c a n ' t s a y ; I c o u l d n 't s a y .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't b e l i e v e t h e r e a re any o th er q u e s t io n s .BY THE COURT:Q I b e l i e v e you t e s t i f i e d t h a t th e m e e tin g was one being h e ld by th e A lb a n y Movement?A Y e s s i r , i t w a s .Q. And so a d v e r t is e d ?A Y e s s i r .Q A l l r i g h t .® MR. HOLLOWELL:Q J u s t a moment, one f u r t h e r q u e s t io n : Have youever had any v u l g a r s ta te m e n t made t o you by any w h ite
Person? MR. LEYERETT: Now, may i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,t h a t 's im m a te r ia l t o t h i s c a s e . The q u e s t io n h e r e
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 421A
is not t h e r e l a t i v e m e r it s o f t h e two r a c e s b u t as to w hether o r n o t th e e v a lu a t io n cf c o n d u c t on a p a r t ic u la r o c c a s io n t h e s i t u a t i o n .THE COURT: In t h e b ro ad form In w h ichyou have asked t h e q u e s t io n , I t h i n k i t w ould be o b je c tio n a b L e , M r. H o l l o w e l l . You ask e d him a t any t in e . B e ca u se t h a t en co m p asses to o g r e a t a s p h e r e .But I w i l l a l lo w you to a s k him i f he had any s ta te m e n ts na.de l i k e t h a t to him a t th e e x a c t o r a p p ro x im a te tim e when any o f t h e s e m e e tin g s o r d is t u r b a n c e s t h a t have been r e f e r r e d t o .MR. HOLLOWELL: O f c o u r s e , Y o u r H o n or, what we were p a r t i c u l a r l y r e f e r r i n g t o I s t h a t I t i s n o t uncommon f o r t h i s k in d o f la n g u a g e to be used by people o f a c e r t a i n l e v e l to p o l i c e o f f i c e r s .THE COURT: I ' l l l e t you a s k him w h eth erI t ' s common o r uncommon.Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : I t i s n o t v a s t l y uncommon f o ryou to hear t h i s k in d o f la n g u a g e in c e r t a i n a r e a s o f t h e town, is i t ?A I ' l l p u t i t t h i s w ay, I ' l l e x p la in i t . Now, 2 have keen cu ssed a t by w h ite p e o p le b e f o r e , b u t I h a v e never been cu ssed a t in s u ch a m anner a s I was t h e s e Usvious n ig h ts by a c o lo r e d p e r s o n .Q By p e rs o n s t h a t you to o k to be c o lo r e d , I s t h a t
°orrect?A They w ere c o lo r e d .Q I m ean, you d o n 't know e x a c t l y from whom th e ^marks came, do you?
Searing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 h22A
A No, I d o n 't b u t I know th e r e was no w h ite p e o p le on the walkway.q None t h a t you saw?A I d i d n ' t see a n y , f o r I lo o k e d f o r som e. q You lo o k e d f o r some?A Y e s .Q B u t you d i d n ' t s e e any?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q B u t you c o u ld n o t s a y d e f i n i t i v e l y t h a t t h e r eweren't any th e r e ?A W e ll , a s f a r a s I 'm c o n c e r n e d , t h e r e w a s n 't anythere. Q T h is was a d a rk a r e a on th e s id e o f S h i lo h C h u rc h , was it not, and th e l i g h t was on th e c o m e r and down on the alley; th e r e c o u ld h a v e b een some th e r e ?A The l i g h t was com ing I n from th e windows o f th e church. I c o u ld s e e .Q There c o u ld h ave b e en some th e r e t h a t you n o t 5w, is th a t c o r r e c t ?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , Ithink he o u g h t t o s p e c i f y what he means by " t h e r e " .MR. HOLLOWELL: He s a id " Y e s " . No f u r t h e r
Questions.
MR. R . V . HAMMONTREE5 th w it n e s s c a l l e d and sw orn i n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATION
r-arlng on M otion F o r Pr e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727
S HR, LEVERETT:q S t a t e y o u r name and r e s i d e n c e , p le a s e s i r ?A R . V. H am m ontree.q Mr, Ham m ontree, w here do you l i v e ?A 715 O g le t h o r p e .q Speak up lo u d e r ?A 715 O g le t h o r p e ,ft I beg y o u r p a rd o n ?A 715 O g le t h o r p e .Q How lo n g h ave you l i v e d ; t h e r e , M r. Hammontree? A S in c e N ovem ber,ft November o f when?A L a s t y e a r .ft Have you l i v e d i n A lb a n y lo n g e r th a n t h a t ?A No s i r .ft What I s y o u r o c c u p a t io n , p le a s e s i r ?A M anager o f th e T r a ilw a y s G r i l l ,ft The T r i lw a y s w h ich ?A G r i l l .ft The g r i l l , i s t h a t s i t u a t e d i n th e T r a ilw a y s Station?A Yes s i r .ft Mr. Ham m ontree, c a l l i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o n totne Saturday, J u l y 21 , I a s k you d id a n y t h in g u n u s u a l *‘aPpen in the T r a ilw a y s Bus S t a t i o n ?THE COURT: W hich y e a r now a r e you t a l k i n g
423A
about?
ft M r. L e v e r e t t : 1962?
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 il24A
A T h at was l a s t - w hat d a te d id you sa y ?q S a tu r d a y ?A W e ll , th e r e was a p r e t t y good crowd come i n t h e r e Saturday n ig h t .Q W hat, i f a n y t h in g , had p r e c e d e d th e crowd coming in to th e bus s t a t i o n ?A W e ll , t h e r e ’ ! been a m arch up th e s t r e e t .Q A m arch up w h ich s t r e e t ?A Up J a c k s o n .Q Was i t c o lo r e d p e o p le -A Y e s s i r .Q O r w h ite p e o p le in v o lv e d ?A C o lo r e d .THE COURT; C o u n s e l, th e r e c o r d w i l l beconfused u n le s s we g e t i t s t r a i g h t a b o u t w hat d a te we're t a l k i n g a b o u t . You s t a t e d t h a t you were ta lk in g a b o u t J u l y 2 1 , 1962 . The w it n e s s u se d th e phrase " l a s t S a t u r d a y " . T h a t 'would n o t be J u l y 2 1 ,1962. L e t ’ s g e t th e r e c o r d s t r a i g h t a b o u t what d a te th is o c c u r r e d .Q M r. L e v e r e t t : Was i t l a s t S a tu r d a y ?A I t was a week a g o .Q S a tu r d a y was a week ago?A Y e s s i r .Q Now, th e p e o p le t h a t came t o th e bus s t a t i o n s ,1,ere khey w h ite o r c o lo r e d ?A They were c o lo r e d .Q Do you h ave any id e a how many o f them th e r e w ere?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 425AHearing
A No, I d o n ’ t . I t was f u l l .q You s a y t h e bu s s t a t i o n was f u l l ?A Y e s .q What were th e y d o in g ?A W e ll , th e y were h o o t in g and h o l l e r i n g .Q D id any o f them buy a bus t i c k e t ?A Not a s I know o f .Q And w here i s y o u r g r i l l s i t u a t e d w ith r e s p e c t to the outside a r e a t h e r e where th e w a it in g room o f th e bus station i s ?A W e ll , a s you come i n a t th e d o o r , you t u r n t o the right to come i n t o th e g r i l l .Q Were you o b s e r v in g th e s e p a r t i e s com ing in ?A Yes s i r .Q D id you h e a r a n y t h in g t h a t was s a id by any o f
A Y e a h , I h e a rd a few t h i n g s .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , w hat? W i l l you t e l l u s some o fthings t h a t you h e a rd ? Go r i g h t a h e a d , s i r ?A Somebody h o l l e r e d o u t and s a i d , " I f you w ant t° shit, ju s t s h i t i n th e f l o o r and p i s s a l l o v e r th e p l a c e " . Q D id you h e a r a n y t h in g e l s e ?A Not i n p a r t i c u l a r , n o .Q What was th e g e n e r a l a t t i t u d e o f th e crowd t h a t
55X16 *n the bus s t a t i o n th e r e ?A W e ll , th e y were p r e t t y row dy, seemed l i k e . They ,ere h o lle r in g and g o in g o n .Q W hat, I f a n y t h in g , what d id y o u do a s soon as Game in ?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 426aHearing
A I d i d n ’ t do a n y t h in g ,q Was i t n e c e s s a r y to l o c k th e b u i l d i n g t h a t youwere in? MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I a s k him not to le a d th e w it n e s s , p l e a s e .THE COURT: D o n 't le a d h im .A The W it n e s s : I d o n ’ t r e c k o n th e b u i l d i n g waslooked,Q, Mr, L e v e r e t t : What a b o u t y o u r g r i l l o rrestaurant?A I t w a s n 't lo c k e d .Q I t w a sn ’ t lo c k e d ?A No.Q Now, th e f o l l o w i n g Monday n i g h t , M r. Ham m ontree,I'll ask you w h eth er o r n o t a n y t h in g happened a t th e busstation?ASaturdayQAQAQAas much
Y es s i r , th e r e was n o t as many a s th e r e was n ig h t b u t th e r e was a b u n ch come i n t h e r e Monday n i g h t . A bunch o f whom?C o lo r e d p e o p le .Do you know how many?No s i r , I d o n ' t .What were th e y d o in g ?J u s t a b o u t th e same t h i n g , o n ly t h e r e w a s n 't ra ck e t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n 't a s many o f th em .QA W a sn 't a s many o f them?No.MR, LEVERETT: H e 's w ith y o u .
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , Mo. 727 2)2,
CROSS EXAMINATIONjj MR. HOLLOUELL:q Mr. H am m ontree, w hat a r e y o u r i n i t i a l s , s i r ?A R . V .Q R , V . H am m ontree, H - a - m - m - o - n - d - t - r - e e ?A No " d " .q H - a - m - m - o - n - t - r - e - e ( s p e l l i n g ) , and you haveto manager o f th e T r a ilw a y s G r i l l f o r how lo n g ?A S in c e Novem ber o f l a s t y e a r .Q From whom do you r e n t ?A From whom do I r e n t ?Q Y e s , f o r whom do you work?A F o r th e U n io n News.Q The U n io n News Company, I n c .A Y e s .Q And from whom do th e y r e n t ?A I d o n ’ t know.Q Do you f e e d N e g ro e s i n th e g r i l l ?A Y e s .MR. LEVERETT: Now, i f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , weobject to t h a t q u e s t io n on th e grou n d t h a t i t ’ s ir r e le v a n t and Im m a te r ia l t o t h i s c a s e . N o. 2 , g o in g into m a tte rs t h a t were n o t gone i n t o on d i r e c t ex am in atio n . MR. HOLLOWELL: I s u b m it , Y o u r H o n o r, t h a t i t has been gone i n t o i n t h i s t r i a l j and t h e r e h a s been testim ony o f th e a r r e s t and th e r e i s te s t im o n y t o th e e ffe c t t h a t i t was a t th e in s t a n c e o f t h i s g e n tle m a n , who i s th e m anager o f th e G r i l l .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 428A
THE COURT: Go a h e a d .MR. HOLLOWELL: Would you r e p e a t th e q u e s t io n , read th e q u e s t io n p l e a s e , M r. R e p o r te r ?THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Do you fe e d N e g ro e sin th e G r i l l ? A n sw er: Y e s ."Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : I s t h a t t r u e , s i r ?A Y e s .Q When i s t h e l a s t tim e you had one to e a t i n t h e r e ,do you remember?A No, I d o n ' t .Q When d id you e v e r h ave one i n th e r e t h a t you fe d ?A W e ll , th e d a te I d o n 't rem em ber.Q Do you remember th e month?A O h, t h e r e ' s one i n th e r e e v e r y day o r tw o .Q E v e r y d ay o r two?A Y e s .Q Have you had th e o c c a s io n t o c a l l th e p o l i c ewhen Negroes h ave come i n th e r e to e a t ?A I h a v e n ’ t c a l l e d th e p o l i c e .Q Have th e p o l i c e had th e o c c a s io n to come andmake a r r e s ts o f p e r s o n s who were s o l i c i t i n g s e r v i c e s i n th e r e ?A They h a v e .Q W ith o u t y o u r I n s t a n c e , w ith o u t you h a v in g c a l l e dthem? A W e ll , I h a d n ’ t c a l l e d th em , n o .Q W ith o u t any o f y o u r p e r s o n n e l c a l l i n g them?A I d o n ’ t know who c a l l e d th em .Q W e ll , a s th e m an ager, t h i s w ould be n o r m a lly/0U1, ^ s p o n s i b l l i t y , r i g h t , as th e m anager o f th e g r i l l ?
on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 429AHearing
A I d o n ’ t know.q You d o n ’ t know?A No.q When d id t h i s happ en?A What i s t h a t ?q These a r r e s t s , when th e p o l i c e came and a r r e s t e d people?A Now, i t ’ s b een a r i g h t sm art b i t .Q Beg p a rd o n ?A I t ’ s b een a r i g h t sm art b i t , I d o n ’ t know j u s t
Q Was i t a f t e r th e 1 s t o f November?A Y e a h .Q O f 1961,* i t was s u b s e q u e n t to November 1 , 1961?A Y e s .Q How many t im e s do you r e c o l l e c t t h i s h a v in ghappened?A T w ic e , I b e l i e v e .Q At l e a s t tw ic e ?A I b e l i e v e i t w a s. I w o u ld n 't be s u r e .Q Do you r e c o l l e c t how many were a r r e s t e d ?A No, I d o n ’ t .Q Have you s e e n th e p o l i c e a p p ro a ch N eg ro es s i t t i n g ln the w a itin g room and th o s e N e g ro e s s u b s e q u e n t ly le a v e ?A I h a v e n ' t .Q You h a v e n ot had th e o c c a s io n to s e e t h a t ?A No.Q Do you remember th e names o f L e ro y R o g e rs and J-seph P it t s and U ly s s e s C a u le y ?
Searing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 430A
A No,q D id you h a v e a w a r r a n t is s u e d f o r any N eg ro es during the month o f Ju n e ?A I d i d .q You d id ?A Y e s .q What were th o s e N e g ro e s d o in g ?A W e ll , th e y w ere j 'u s t r u n n in g aro u n d o v e r th erestaurant.
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D id th e y s i t down?They s i t a l l o v e r th e p l a c e .Were th e y fe d ?No.D id th e y a s k f o r s e r v i c e s ?No.N ever d id a s k f o r s e r v i c e s ?They n e v e r d i d .D id anybody i n y o u r e s t a b lis h m e n t a s k them I fth*y wanted to be s e r v e d ?AQA
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I d i d .You d id ?I d i d .How many t im e s ?W e ll , I d o n ’ t know how many t im e s .What d id t h e y sa y ?They d i d n ’ t .Where w ere th e y s i t t i n g a t th e tim e t h a t you madethis b lu e s t o f them a s t o w h e th e r o r n o t th e y w anted to beserved?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 431A
A At one tim e th e y were s i t t i n g on th e s t o o l s .Q And you p e r s o n a l l y a s k e d them?A I d i d .Q Who e l s e was p r e s e n t a t t h a t tim e w o rk in g i nthe g r i l l?A The w a i t r e s s e s .Q What a r e t h e i r names?A V i r g i n i a C o c h r a n .Q B eg p a rd o n ?A V i r g i n i a C o c h r a n .Q And?A I t h i n k sh e was th e o n ly one t h a t was t h e r e .Q Do you know w here sh e l i v e s ?A She l i v e s a t S y l v e s t e r .Q S y l v e s t e r , G e o r g ia ?A Y e s .Q Does she commute e a c h day?A Y e s .Q One moment, Y o u r H onor . . . As a m a t te r o fyou made ch a n g e f o r one o f th e young men i n o r d e rto get c i g a r e t t e s , i s n ’ t t h a t t r u e ?A N o.Q You d i d n ' t make any ch a n ge ?A I d id n o t .Q W hat' s th e young l a d y ’ s nam e, M iss C o c h r a n ,she make any ch a n g e a s f a r a s you r e c o l l e c t ?A She d id n o t .Q D id you s e e C h i e f Sum m erford when he came?
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 H32A
A I d o n ’ t know h im .
q The A s s i s t a n t C h ie f ?A Y e s .q, You saw him when he came?A Y e s .Q What d id he come f o r ?A I d o n 't know.Q You d o n ’ t know?A No.Q I s n ’ t i t t r u e t h a t he s a i d t o you o r you s a idto him, "You see th e y a r e n ’ t g o in g t o l e a v e , why d o n 't yougoon and a r r e s t them "?No.You d i d n ' t make t h i s s ta te m e n t?No.Do you know t h i s D e fe n d a n t h e r e , C h a r l ie Jo n e s ? I ’ ve s e e n h im .Beg p a rd o n ?I ’ ve s e e n h im .Y o u 'v e s e e n h im j h ave you seen him i n y o u r p la c e
I h a v e .Has he r e q u e s te d s e r v ic e .He h a s .Has he b een s e r v e d ?He h a s .How many t im e s ?I w o u ld n ’ t know.
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business?AQAQAQA
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 433A
q Do you know what he was s e rv e d ?
A No, I d o n ’ t .q I s i t n o t t r u e t h a t on one o c c a s io n when he was
tiiere, you asked him f o r an i n t e r s t a t e t i c k e t ?A I d o n ’ t rem em ber.q You d o n ’ t remember you a s k in g him f o r aninterstate t i c k e t , and when he r e f u s e d t o show you tot he had a t i c k e t , th e n y o u r e f u s e d t o s e r v e him ?A I d o n ’ t rem em ber.Q You d o n ’ t remember t h a t ?A No.Q Now, t h e s e p e o p le t h a t you s a y were i n th e p la c e or in the w a it in g room on th e n i g h t o f th e 21s t , th e y went on out of the b u i l d in g ?A They d i d .Q And t h i s was a l s o t r u e on th e n i g h t - on th e feday fo llo w in g , i s t h a t n o t t r u e ?A R i g h t .Q You d i d n ’ t c a l l th e p o l i c e on t h a t n i g h t , d id you?A No, I d i d n ’ t .Q You s a y you d id n o t?A I d id n o t .Q They d i d n ’ t do any damage t o y o u r p l a c e , d id
they? A They d i d n ’ t .Q As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , th e y d i d n ’ t do any damagefn 3Ay of the f a c i l i t i e s i n th e b u i l d i n g , d id th e y ?A I w o u ld n ’ t know.
Hearing. on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 434a
q W e l l , you d i d n ' t se e any?A I d id n 't see any.q I s n ' t i t t r u e t h a t you had th e o c c a s io n toappear in c o u r t i n c o n n e c t io n w it h y o u r h a v in g had C h a r l i e Jones a rre ste d ?A I d o n ’ t remember a p p e a r in g i n c o u r t when he wasarrested.Q T h is was i n Ja n u a r y o f ’ 6l - '6 2 , s o r r y ?A I d o n 't remember him b e in g t r i e d .q You d o n ’ t remember him b e in g t r i e d ?A N o.Q, You do remember h i s h a v in g been a r r e s t e d b u tyou don't rem em ber him b e in g t r i e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A No, I d o n ’ t .Q, Beg p a rd o n ?A I d o n ’ t .Q You d o n 't ; yo u d o n 't w hat? You d o n 't rememberhim g e ttin g t r i e d ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .Q B u t yo u do remember him g e t t i n g a r r e s t e d ?A T h a t 1s r i g h t .Q, I s n ' t I t t r u e t h a t , a s a m a tte r o f f a c t , th e dayyou came to c o u r t he w a s n 't t r i e d ?A Do w hat?Q. I s a y , th e d ay you came to c o u r t he w a sn ’ t t r i e d ,was he?A I w o u ld n 't 1-mow.Q D o n 't you r e c o l l e c t t h a t t h a t was th e day when
Hearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 435A
they changed th e c h a r g e fro m l o i t e r i n g to so m e th in g e l s e ;
Ho you remember t h a t ?A I d o n ’ t know a n y t h in g a b o u t t h a t . q You do remember com ing to c o u r t , b u t you d o n 't
remember h is b e in g t r i e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I ’ ve b e en t o c o u r t ,MR, HOLLOWELL: We h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s .MR. LEVERETT: Come down. C a l l M r.W, E . S w e e t in g . MR. W. E . SWEETING
6t h w it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn i n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. LEVERETT:Q I s y o u r name W, E . S w e e tin g ?A Y es s i r .Q M r. S w e e t in g , w here do you l i v e ?A I l i v e a t 1115 1 0 th A ven u e, A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .Q How lo n g h ave you l i v e d i n A lb a n y ?A S in c e 1 948.Q What i s y o u r o c c u p a t io n now, p le a s e s i r ?A W e ll , r i g h t a t th e p r e s e n t tim e I ’m o u t o fan occupation. I was m anager o f th e bu s com pany, th e % bus company.Q I s t h a t th e bu s company t h a t a f f o r d e d m u n ic ip a l8ervices in th e C i t y o f A lb a n y ?A Y es s i r .Q How lo n g were you m anager o f t h a t bus company?
M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727Searing on 436A
A From th e b e g in n in g h e r e I n 1946. q What was th e name o f th e bus company?A C i t i e s T r a n s i t , I n c .q Why i s I t n o t s t i l l i n b u s in e s s now?A We w ere b o y c o t t e d .q D id you go o u t o f b u s in e s s o r w hat?A Y es s i r , we c lo s e d down b e c a u se o f th e b o y c o t t .Q When d id you go o u t o f b u s in e s s ?A I o p e r a te d th e l a s t day - I can lo o k h e re and tell the la s t day - on th e 6t h d ay o f M arch .Q, The 6t h d ay o f M arch?A Y es s i r .Q When d id t h i s b o y c o t t b e g in ?A W e ll , i t s t a r t e d , su p p o sed to have s t a r t e dabout December 1 8 . I t d i d n ' t become e f f e c t i v e to any extent u n til a b o u t th e 2 4 th day o f Ja n u a r y .Q A l l r i g h t s i r , who p u t th e b o y c o t t i n e f f e c t ?A The N e g ro e s o f A lb a n y .Q What e f f e c t d id i t h ave on y o u r b u s in e s s a s-?ar as the volume o f b u s in e s s t h a t you had b een d o in g before that?A I t k n o ck ed a b o u t 2/3 o f o u r b u s i n e s s .MR. LEVERETT: A l l r i g h t s i r , h e 's w ith y o u .CROSS EXAMINATIONHOLLOWELL:Q I s i t S w e e tin g ?A Y e s .Q S - w - e - e - t - i - n - g ( s p e l l i n g ) ?A Yes
Hearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o . 727 437A
q M r. S w e e t in g , a t th e tim e o f th e is s u a n c e o fthe fra n ch ise to y o u r Com pany, one o f th e t h in g s t h a t you were required to do was to obey th e o r d in a n c e s o f th e City,, i s n ’ t t h a t t r u e ?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , Io b je c t to t h a t t e s t im o n y . T h ere h a s been no te s t im o n y as f a r a s any m u n ic ip a l bus company was c o n c e rn e d and i t ’ s i r r e l e v a n t and im m a t e r ia l .MR. HOLLOWELL: I su b m it t o Y o u r Honor t h a t t h e r e has been te s t im o n y c o n c e r n in g a bus b o y c o t t , and t h i s was opened up by th e P l a i n t i f f s ' d ir e c t ,* and I w ould submit t h a t in asm u ch a s th e r e h a s been te s t im o n y co n ce rn in g I t , we w ould be a t l i b e r t y to show why t h e r e was o n e , i f i n f a c t t h e r e w as; o t h e r w is e , a l l o f h i s te stim o n y w ould h ave t o be s t r i c k e n .THE COURT: I ' l l l e t you go i n t o I t .MR. HOLLOWELL: Would you re a d th e q u e s t io n ,Mr. R e p o r te r ?THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : M r. S w e e t in g , a t th etime o f th e I s s u a n c e o f th e f r a n c h i s e to y o u r Company, one o f th e t h in g s t h a t you were r e q u ir e d to do was to obey th e o r d in a n c e s o f th e C i t y , i s n ' t t h a t t r u e ? "A The W it n e s s : T h a t ’ s a lw a y s a re q u ire m e n t i nthe b u sin e ss .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : You were aw are o f th e f a c t t h a tthere i s a s e g r e g a t i o n o r d in a n c e r e q u ir in g th e s e p a r a t io n o f and. w h ite p a s s e n g e r s on th e C i t y b u s s e s , a r e you n o t?A No, I am n o t - to s a y t h a t I am f a m i l i a r w itho rd in a n ce , I am n o t .
M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 4 38AHearing o n
q D id you have a p o l i c y o f s e p a r a t io n o f N egro and ,,te passengers on y o u r b u s s e s p r i o r t o Decem ber o f 1961?A Not n e c e s s a r i l y s o .q What do yo u mean "n o t n e c e s s a r i l y s o " ?A I mean t h a t we n e v e r had any - s e p a r a t e d any passengers on o u r b u s s e s , u n le s s we had r e a s o n . Our drivers were a lw a y s i n s t r u c t e d t o , i f th e y had c a u s e , the passengers on th e b u s s e s c a u s in g a d is t u r b a n c e on the bus or s o m e th in g , th e n th e y d id what was n e c e s s a r y t o bring i t down. B u t t o make i t -Q W e ll , w hat - e x c u s e me -A B u t we n e v e r a s s ig n e d s e a t s on o u r b u s s e s to any one at any t i m e .Q Now, when you s a y " r e a s o n " w hat w ould be among those reasons?A I f t h e r e g o t to be a q u a r r e l betw een p a s s e n g e r s ®the busses o r so m e th in g o f t h a t n a t u r e .Q I f a N egro to o k a s e a t i n f r o n t o f a w h ite person on the b u s , t h i s w ould be c a u s e , w ould i t ?A I f i t c a u s e d i t , y e s , i f t h e r e was a d is t u r b a n c e .Q Have you had th e o c c a s io n t o have th e p o l i c e
1,0 Set on your bus and t o c a u s e p a s s e n g e r s to be r e - s e a t e d cnany of the b u s s e s on y o u r l i n e ?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , u n le s sthis w itn e s s was t h e r e and had f i r s t - h a n d know ledge of i t , I t w ould be h e a r s a y a s f a r a s he i s c o n c e r n e d .MR. HQLLOWELL: He ca n t e s t i f y a s t o w h e th e r o r not he h a s , N o. 1 And N o. 2—
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 439A
THE COURT: I o v e r r u le th e o b j e c t i o n .MR. HOLLOWELL: Thank y o u ; w ould you r e a d th e q u e s tio n , s i r ?THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Have you had th eo c c a s io n t o h a v e th e p o l i c e t o g e t on y o u r bus and to cau se p a s s e n g e r s to be r e - s e a t e d on any o f th e busses on y o u r l i n e ? "Q Mr. H o l l o w e l l : I n s o f a r a s you know?A T h a t * s r i g h t .Q Now, d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e b o y c o t t , d id youever rece iv e an y co m m u n ica tio n from th e M ayor o r from th e Chief o f P o l i c e o r from anybody i n any o f f i c i a l C i t y capacity, i n w h ich co m m u n ica tio n you w ere in fo r m e d t h a t the City p o l i c e d e p a rtm e n t w ould n o t e n fo r c e th e s e g r e gation laws a s p e r t a in e d to b u s s e s i n th e C i t y o f A lb a n y ?A They n e v e r had any o c c a s io n t o do t h a t b e ca u sethey never d i d .Q Do I u n d e r s ta n d th e n y o u r answ er t o b e , n o ,that you n e v e r r e c e iv e d any su ch co m m u n ica tio n ?A No, we n e v e r d i d ; t h e r e was no r e a s o n f o r u s t o .Q B u t you n e v e r r e c e iv e d one?A No.Q Do you r e c a l l a c o n fe r e n c e betw een y o u r s e l f andowner i n T a l l a h a s s e e , I b e l i e v e i t i s , and M r. P a g e ,ln which i t was s t a t e d t h a t i f th e A lb a n y Movement w ouldCourage th e u s e o f th e b u s s e s , th e n th e management w ould
589 k° i t t h a t t h e r e was no f u r t h e r s e g r e g a t i o n on th e tosses?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 440A
A Would yo u r e p e a t t h a t q u e s t io n , p le a s e s i r ,I didn’t u n d e rs ta n d i t ?Q MR. HOLLOWELLs W ould you re a d i t , s i r ?THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Do you r e c a l l aco n fe re n ce b etw een y o u r s e l f and th e owner i n T a l la h a s s e e , I b e l i e v e i t i s , and M r. P a g e , i n which i t was s t a t e d t h a t i f th e A lb a n y Movement would e n c o u r a g e th e u s e o f th e b u s s e s , th e n th e management w ould se e to i t t h a t th e r e was no f u r t h e r s e g r e g a tio n on th e b u s s e s " .A The W it n e s s : T h ere was n e v e r any s u c h .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : You h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n o fany such c o n fe r e n c e ?A I t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .Q A t no t im e ?A N o.Q Have you e v e r t o l d any members o f th e le a d e r s h ip°f the A lbany Movement t h a t you w ould n o t s e g r e g a t e on th etusses?A We t o l d th e le a d e r s o f th e A lb a n y Movement t h a twe met w ith -Q J u s t a moment, s i r —THE COURT: L e t him answ er th e q u e s t io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e ll , I want a d i r e c t y e s o r n o .THE COURT: I f i t i s n o t r e s p o n s iv e , w e ' l lre q u ir e him t o r e s p o n d .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , w hat I want to g e t a t i s a c a t e g o r i c a l a n s w e r . I h a v e no o b je c t io n t o h i s e x p l a i n i n g .
on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 441A
THE COURT: i s th e q u e s t io n - I h a v e f o r gotten th e e x a c t w o rd in g o f th e q u e s t io n . I s i t one t h a t ca n he an sw ered t h a t way?MR. HOLLOWSLL: Y e s s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t . T h en , an sw er th equestion e i t h e r y e s o r n o , i f i t I s su ch a q u e s t io n , and th en you c a n e x p l a i n i t .MR. KOLLOWELL; W ould you l i k e to h a v e i t r e - r e a dto you? The W it n e s s ; I w o u ld .MR. HOLLOWELL; M r. J o i n e r , w ould you re a d I t ? THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Have you e v e r t o l dany members o f th e le a d e r s h ip o f th e A lb a n y Movement that you w ould n o t s e g r e g a t e on th e b u s s e s ? "Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Y e s o r n o , M r. S w e e tin g ?A I t h i n k I c o u ld p r o b a b ly answ er t h a t y e s .Q When?A D u rin g th e m e e tin g i n P a g e ’ s h o u s e .Q U nder w hat c ir c u m s t a n c e s ?A To d is c u s s th e r e a s o n f o r th e b o y c o t t .Q You t o l d them t h a t th e r e w ould be n o n e , t h a tW wanted them to e n c o u ra g e N e g ro e s t o u s e th e b u s s e s , i s not c o r r e c t ?A W e ll , I d o n ’ t know t h a t t h a t ca n be an sw ered y e sor no. Q Was t h e r e any i n d i c a t i o n g iv e n a t t h a t m e e tin g^ ĥe s o - c a l l e d b o y c o t t ?A I d o n 't q u i t e g e t th e m ean ing o f y o u r q u e s t io n
Searing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 442A
q I t h i n k I c a n remember i t . I s a i d , was t h e r e any reason g iv e n b y th e p e r s o n s w it h whom you t a l k e d a t this meeting a s to th e r e a s o n f o r th e s o - c a l l e d b o y c o t t ?A Y e s , th e r e was a r e a s o n g iv e n .q What was t h a t r e a s o n ?A W e ll , when i t f i n a l l y came down, th e y were using us as a p r y a g a i n s t th e C i t y . They a c t u a l l y had no complaints a g a in s t u s a t a l l .Q They had no c o m p la in t a g a i n s t you a t a l l ?A No.Q D id th e y s a y t h a t th e y d id n o t l i k e th e s e g r e g a t io non the busses?A They had a r e q u e s t w r i t t e n clown, I t h in k a b o u t3 or 4 re q u e sts t h a t th e y were a s k in g u s to com ply w ith at the tim e. They had a ty p e d s h e e t and I t h in k th e r e ,,?as 3 or 4 d i f f e r e n t t h in g s on th e r e t h a t th e y w anted us4 k and we s a id we had no o b j e c t i o n t o d o in g th e t h in g s
they wanted.Q You t o l d them you had no o b je c t i o n s ?A T h at we had no o b j e c t i o n s .Q B u t d id th e C i t y t o y o u r know ledge e v e r t e l lten that th e y w ould p e r m it you and them to c a r r y o u t tflat which you h ad a m ic a b ly d is c u s s e d and a g r e e d upon?A I c o u ld n 5t sa y what th e C i t y t o l d th em . I know ilnat the C it y t o l d u s .Q You know what th e C i t y t o l d you ?A I know w hat th e C i t y t o l d u s . I c a n ' t say
tihat they t o ld th em .
Searing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o. 727 443A
q What d id th e C i t y t e l l you?A They t o l d u s t h a t th e y had - t h a t th e y w ould n o tinterfere.q They s a id th e y w ould n o t i n t e r f e r e ?A They d i d .q Do you know w h eth er th e y e v e r made t h i s p u b l i c to Negroes?A I 'm n o t - I c o u l n d 't s a y .Q y o u 'v e n e v e r re a d i t anyw here?MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u rt* hesaid he d i d n ' t know.Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : My q u e s t io n w as: h ave you e v e r road it anywhere?A What do you mean* i n th e n ew sp ap ers?Q, I n th e new spaper?A I d o n 't r e c a l l w h eth er I ' v e re a d t h a t e x a c twets in the n e w sp a p e r, I mean j u s t to t h a t e f f e c t .Q You d o n 't h ave any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f e v e r r e a d in g lo you?A No* I c o u ld h a v e . I f i t was i n th e r e * I p r o b a b lyFSad it* but I d o n 't r e c o l l e c t receding I t i n th e p a p e r , think i t was s t a t e d I n th e p a p e r* I 'm p r e t t y s u re I t stated i n th e p a p e r a t one tim e o r a n o th e r t h a t th e % had agreed w ith u s t h a t th e y w o u ld n 't I n t e r f e r e .Q What p a p e r and when?A W ell* now y o u 'r e a s k in g me a q u e s t io n , I c a n ' tMember the e x a c t d a t e . Som etim e d u r in g t h i s t h in g * and lt would be p r o b a b ly i n th e A lb a n y p a p e r .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y i n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 444 a
q Y o u n e v e r h e a rd i t o v e r th e r a d i o , d id you?A N o, I d o n 't l i s t e n to th e r a d io v e r y m uch.
q And you n e v e r h e a rd i t o r saw i t on th e TV, d idyou? A I c o u ld h a v e se e n i t on TV a s a news it e m .I don't r e c a l l .q i m ean, you d o n 't h a v e any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f e v e rdoing so?A N o.
q Now, i f i t h a d , you w ould h ave known a b o u t i tbecause i t w ould h a v e m eant t h a t y o u r b u s s e s w ould h ave been o p e r a t in g , w o u ld n 't i t ?A N ot n e c e s s a r i l y , n o t u n le s s th e p e o p le had g o t t e nback on them and r id d e n th em .q T h ere w ould have been no r e a s o n f o r them n o tto, would th e r e ?A W e ll , i f y o u 'r e a s k in g my o p in io n , I d o n 'tthink they had an y r e a s o n fro m th e b e g in n in g .q j Se e . W e l l , you know, as a m a tte r o f f a c t ,that the r e a s o n t h a t N e g ro e s were n o t r i d i n g y o u r b u s s e s was because o f th e f a c t t h a t th e C i t y w ould n o t a g r e e t h a t - would not a g r e e w ith them n o t to a r r e s t N eg ro es i f th e y s a t anywhere th e y may h a v e w anted to s i t on t h e b u s , do you not? MR. LEVERETT: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , weo b je c t t o t h a t . T h a t 's i r r e l e v a n t and h a s no b e a r in g on t h i s . I t w ould a l s o be a c o n c lu s io n o f th e w it n e s s about what th e C i t y w ould d o .
saring on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 445A
THE COURT: Y e s , i t c a l l s f o r him to re a dthe minds o f th e C i t y and o f th e p e o p le who w e r e n 't r id in g ; i t c a l l s f o r him t o re a d t h e i r m in d s . I su stain th e o b j e c t i o n .q M r. H o l l o w e l l : One moment, s i r . . . Now, was
fere any tim e when you had a m e e tin g w ith any o f th e
leaders of th e A lb a n y Movement t h a t t h e i r a t t i t u d e was
other than not r i d i n g on a s e g r e g a t e d bus system ?A W e ll , th e y s a i d t h a t was t h e i r r e a s o n s .Q V e ry w e l l ; no f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s .REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. LEVERETT:Q M r. S w e e t in g , do you r e c a l l any co m m ittee meetings in t h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p a t th e Chamber o f Commerce?A We had num erous m e e tin g s a t th e Chamber o fCommerce.Q Do you know w h e th e r o r n o t th e Chamber o fCommerce or anybody r e p r e s e n t in g i t e v e r com m unicated with members o f th e A lb a n y Movement a b o u t any d e te r m in a tion that had been made?A Y e s , I d e f i n i t e l y know t h a t t h e r e was somecommunication.Q What was t h a t co m m u n icatio n ?A I c o u ld n ’ t sw ear to i t , t o th e e x a c t com m unica-ti°n. x know th e y had some m e e t in g s . I was t o l d by them MaiJ ichey had some m e e t in g s .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , he "was t o l d by th e m ", s h e e r h e a r s a y .
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THE COURT: Do you k n o w .i t any o t h e r w ay,other th a n w hat som ebody t o l d y o u , M r. S w e e tin g ? q M r. L e v e r e t t : D id you e v e r d is c u s s i t w ith anyabers of the A lb a n y Movement a b o u t t h i s co m m u n ica tio n ?A D id I ?q Y e s s i r ?A Y e s ,q Who d id you d is c u s s i t w ith ?A I c o u l d n 't remember th e e x a c t p e o p le ; I d o n 'trecall the e x a c t p e o p le , b u t I do know t h a t I had some iiscussion w ith some o f th e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s o f th e A lb a n y ibvement w ith r e g a r d t o t h a t .Q What was th e co m m u n ica tio n ?A They w ere t r y i n g t o h a v e a m e e tin g o r r e a c hsow grounds, w hereby th e y c o u ld keep th e Bus Company B>ing, and see why t h e s e peoxole w e re n ’ t s a t i s f i e d , s in c e ĥad to ld them t h a t th e r e was n o th in g a s k e d i n t h i s lenient, in t h i s r e q u e s t t h a t th e y had ty p e d u p , t h a t feere was n o th in g i n t h a t r e q u e s t t h a t h a d n ’ t b een p u t - ^ hadn't been i n p r a c t i c e a l r e a d y ; and c o n s e q u e n t ly ,% thought t h a t t h e r e m ig h t be some p o s s i b l e way t o r e a c h jil agreement on th e t h i n g an d c a l l o f f th e b o y c o t t , s in c e % hadn't a sk e d f o r a n y t h in g t h a t w a s n 't a lr e a d y b e in g tone. Q W hat, i f a n y , r e p ly was made by th e le a d e r s o f ^ Albany Movement?.A Now, t h a t I c o u l d n 't sw ear t o , what t h e i r was.
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 447 A
MR. LEVERETT: H e 's w ith y o u .THE COURT: A n y th in g f u r t h e r fro m t h i sw itn e ss?MR. HOLLOWELL: I b e l i e v e n o t , Y o u r H o n o r. THE COURT: You may go down.
CAPT. MELVIN R . CLEGG-7 t h w it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn i n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. LEVERETT:Q I s y o u r name C a p ta in M e lv in R . C le g g ?A I t i s .Q C a p t a i n , where do you l i v e ?A My home a d d r e s s ?Q Y e s s i r ?A 1215 7 th A ven u e, A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .Q How lo n g h a v e you l i v e d I n A lb a n y ?A 17 y e a r s .Q And w hat i s y o u r o c c u p a t io n o r p r o f e s s i o n now?A C a p t a in on th e A lb a n y , G e o r g ia P o l i c e D e p a rtm e n t.Q How lo n g h a v e you te en e n g ag ed i n p o l i c e work?A 15 y e a r s .Q How lo n g i n A lb a n y ?A 15 y e a r s .Q C a p t a i n , I c a l l y o u r a t t e n t i o n to T u esd ayni8ht, w hich I b e l i e v e was on J u l y 2 4 , and a s k you I f aiYthlng u n u s u a l happened t h a t n ig h t ?A Y e s s i r .
M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 448 aHearing on
q W ould you t e l l i n y o u r own w ords w hat happ enedjiisofsh as you p a r t i c i p a t e c i i n I t ?A A t a p p r o x im a te ly 1 0 s 30 P»M. I was I n th e
100 block o f N o rth Ja c k s o n S t r e e t a lo n g w it h o t h e r C i t y police, S t a t e t r o o p e r s , C o u n ty p o l i c e . We r e c e iv e d a call to m u ster down i n th e 100 b lo c k o f S o u th Ja c k s o n Street a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f O g le t h o r p e . As we a r r i v e d there, C h ie f P r i t c h e t t a d v is e d us to - t h a t he w anted u s to get in two l i n e s . L o o k in g a c r o s s th e s t r e e t I Im a g in e there was 2 ,0 0 0 N e g ro e s on b o th s id e s o f th e s t r e e t , b lo c k in g the s tr e e t , h o l l e r i n g a t c a r s , j e e r i n g and r u n n in g b a c k from the bus s t a t i o n t o th e e a s t s id e o f th e s t r e e t , and a l lup and down I n th e H arlem a r e a .q Were th e y on t h e s id e w a lk s o r I n th e s t r e e t o rboth? A They were i n th e s t r e e t , on th e s id e w a lk ,blocking th e c o r n e r s and r u n n in g b a c k and f o r t h on b o th sides o f th e s t r e e t .q Was th e r e 2 ,0 0 0 on e a c h s id e o r was t h e r e a t o t a l
of 2,000?A I e s t i m a t e , I w ould e s t im a t e 2 ,0 0 0 a l l t o lo ..Q, A l l r i g h t s i r , how many p o l i c e o f f i c e r s werewith you t h a t n ig h t ?A I w ould s a y 125 to 1 5 0 .Q Now, what d id you do?A The C h i e f s a i d , a f t e r he g o t u s i n t o two colum nsto line b o th s id e s o f th e s t r e e t , we p ro c e e d e d down i n t o fee loo - i n t o th e 200 b lo c k o f S o u th Ja c k s o n S t r e e t . We
searing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 ^49 A
.-ere d isp ersin g th e crowd t h a t was I n th e s t r e e t . They were sitting on a u t o m o b ile s , th e y were c o n g r e g a t in g on th e s i d e - talks, je e r in g , h a r a s s in g and h o l l e r i n g names a t u s .q Do you r e c a l l any o f th e names t h a t were u se dthat night?A I h e a rd them c a l l u s " p a l e - f a c e d s o n - o f - a - b i t c h e s " .Q A n y th in g e l s e ?A D i s t i n c t l y , I d i d n ' t h e a r n o t h in g e l s e .Q What was i n f r o n t o f y o u r colum n?A P ardon?Q What was i n f r o n t o f y o u r colum n? D id you haveany motor v e h ic le s ?A We had two m o t o r c y c le s .q A l l r i g h t s i r , and p r o c e e d t o t e l l what happened?A We p ro c e e d e d on down to th e 300 b lo c k o f S o u thJackson S t r e e t , when C h i e f P r i t c h e t t g iv e u s th e o r d e r to hold up. J u s t a s we a r r i v e d th e r e a t t h a t d e s t i n a tion, g la ss was b e in g b ro k e a l l arou nd u s , b o t t l e s , r o c k s were being th ro w n . Somebody s a id t h a t one o f th e t r o o p e r s was hit s id e o f th e h e a d . I tu r n e d arou nd and c a u g h t a glimpse o f an o b j e c t t h a t I c o u l d n 't g e t o u t o f th e way of and I was s t r u c k i n th e c h e s t . I t was a p i n t w ineb o tt le . THE COURT; I s i t y o u r te s t im o n y t h a tyou were s t r u c k i n th e c h e s t w ith i t ?The W itn e s s : Y e s s i r .Q M r. L e v e r e t t : C o u ld you t e l l who threw t h a t
M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 450A
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A x c o u ld n o t . I c o u ld o n ly t e l l th e d i r e c t i o nthat it came fr o m .q I n th e d i r e c t i o n t h a t i t came fr o m , were th e r eshite people t h e r e o r N e g ro e s o r b o th ?A N o, i t was N e g r o e s .q What s e c t i o n o f town was t h i s in ?
A T h is was i n th e 300 b lo c k o f S o u th Ja c k s o n S t r e e t .q I s t h a t th e a r e a known a s H arlem ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .q Now, d id you make any e f f o r t to ap p reh en d o rarrest the p e rso n ?A I d id n o t . We h e ld o u r g ro u n d .q W i l l you s t a t e to th e C o u r t why, w ith r e g a r dto any in s t r u c t io n s t h a t you had r e c e iv e d , why you d i d n ’ t undertake to make an a r r e s t t h a t n ig h t ?A We were down t h e r e t o d is p e r s e th e cro w d , wewere to h o ld o u r g rou n d t h e r e , we d i d n ' t want to c r e a t e any violence; we were down th e r e t o i n s t r u c t th e p e o p le to move, to keep from h a v in g any t r o u b l e .MR. LEVERETT: H e ’ s w ith y o u ,CROSS EXAMINATION^ MR, HOLLO WELL:Q, C a p t a in C le g g , how do you s p e l l y o u r la s t , nam e,c-l«e or C - l - a ?A C - l - e .Q, C a p t a in M e lv in Lr,, i s t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ?A M e lv in R .Q C a p t a i n , what were you d o in g i n th e 100 b lo c k
gearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 ^ 5 1 A
of North Ja c k s o n a b o u t 1 0 :3 0 ?A We were k e e p in g th e s i g h t - s e e r s o r p e d e s t r ia n smoving in t h a t a r e a and we were s t a t io n e d th e r e i f any other d em o n stratio n s were f i x i n g to come o n .q You w e r e n 't h a v in g any t r o u b le i n t h a t a r e a ?A No, we were k e e p in g t h a t a r e a c le a r e d o u t ,all t r a f f ic and a l l w a lk in g p e d e s t r i a n s .Q You w e r e n 't h a v in g any t r o u b le i n th e 100 b lo c k of South Ja c k s o n e i t h e r , were you?A N o, we had t h a t a r e a b lo c k e d o f f .MR. LEVERSTT; May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , l e t himf in is h h i s a n s w e r .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : I th o u g h t he w as. Had youfinished, s i r ?A Y e s .Q You d i d n ' t h a v e any t r o u b le i n th e b lo c k betw eenBroad and O g le t h o r p e , you d i d n ' t h ave any t r o u b le th e r e ?Actually, you w ere c a l l e d down i n t o th e 200 b lo c k o f S o tith Jackson by th e C h ie f?A No, we were c a l l e d I n t o th e 100 b lo c k o f S o u thJackson S t r e e t by th e C h i e f , to th e i n t e r s e c t i o n . T h a t 's 4era we f e l l i n co lu m n s.Q You t e s t i f i e d b e f o r e , I b e l i e v e , t h a t you werethe 200 b lo c k and t h a t th e C h i e f had c a l l e d you down from the 100 b lo c k o f N o rth Ja c k s o n t o th e 200 b lo c k o f B°uth Jackson?A I t was th e 100 b lo c k o f S o u th J a c k s o n .Q Where do you c o n s tr u e th e 100 b lo c k o f S o u th
fearing on M otion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 4^2A
jaolcson to be?A B road S t r e e t s e p a r a t e s i t .q B ro ad S t r e e t s e p a r a t e s i t ; s o , i t w ould be th eblock between B ro ad and O g le t h o r p e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .Q T h a t ’ s th e 100 b lo c k ?A Y e s .q Now, you had no d i f f i c u l t y i n t h a t a r e a e i t h e r ?A No, we k e p t t h a t a r e a c l e a r .Q. You k e p t t h a t a r e a c l e a r ?A T h a t 1s r i g h t .Q Now, were you th e r e a t th e tim e t h a t th e f o l k who were a r r e s t e d a t th e c o r n e r o f O g le th o r p e were d i r e c t e d on into the s t r e e t and up Ja c k s o n t o th e a l l e y t h e r e o f f o f Jackson le a d in g i n b e h in d th e C i t y H a l l ?A I w a s .Q And t h e r e had been no d i f f i c u l t y p r i o r t o t h a ttime? You shook y o u r h e ad "N o"?A T h a t *s r i g h t .Q, S o , i t was o n ly a f t e r th e a r r e s t and when th eChief of P o lic e w it h two m o to r c y c le s i n f r o n t o f him wentdown i n t o th e a r e a t o th e s o u th o f O g le th o r p e t h a t you said you saw some f o l k c r o s s in g b a c k and f o r t h andth is i s th e g e n e r a l a r e a o f c o n c e n t r a t io n , i n s o f a r 3S the people w ere c o n ce rn e d ?A T h a t was th e h e a v i l y c o n c e n tr a te d a r e a .Q The h e a v i l y c o n c e n t r a t e d a r e a ?A Y es
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 453A
q As a m a t te r o f f a c t , n o r m a lly on a S a tu r d a y n i g h t ,for in s ta n c e , t h a t ' s a h e a v y c o n c e n t r a t io n anyhow , i s n ' t i t ?A I ' v e n e v e r se e n t h a t much c o n c e n t r a t io n i none spot, n o .Q T h a t w a s n 't my q u e s t io n , s i r . I s a y n o r m a lly ,between th e h o u rs o f 9 :0 0 and 1 1 :0 0 on a S a tu r d a y n i g h t , really on 'm ost any n i g h t , t h a t ' s a f a i r l y c o n g e s te d a r e a in that b lo c k betw een H ig h la n d and O g le th o r p e on S o u thJackson?A Do you mean S a tu r d a y n ig h t ? T h is was T u esd ay n i g h t ,Q, W e l l , I 'm s a y in g on 'm ost any n ig h t b u t p a r ticularly on S a tu r d a y n ig h t ?A Not t h a t m any.Q I d i d n ' t s a y t h a t many?A W e l l , i t ' s c o n g e s t e d , y e s .Q I t ' s a c o n g e s te d a r e a , g e n e r a l ly ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .Q Now, you s a y you d o n 't know where t h i s b o t t l ecame from? A Q I know th e d i r e c t i o n t h a t i t came fro m .Now, i n 2 ,0 0 0 p e o p le a t n i g h t , and t h i s , you s a y , was a fte r 1 0 :3 0 , you d o n 't know w h eth er t h e r e were any white in t e r s p e r s e d w ith th e N e g ro e s t h a t you s a y were there or n o t , do you?A I d i d n ' t s e e a n y .Q You d i d n ' t see a n y , b u t you d o n 't know w h eth erthere were any th e r e ?A I c o u l d n 't s a y .
on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o .727 454 aHeariong
q And you d o n 't know who th rew t h i s p a r t i c u l a rbottle?A I do n o t know who th rew i t .q You d o n 't know w h eth er i t was a p e r s o n who hadteen paid f o r t h a t p u rp o se o r n o t?A A l l I know i s , I saw i t com ing and i t h i t me.q And i t h i t you r i g h t h e r e , you s a y , i n th e c h e s t ?A C h e s t , y e s .q H i t you i n th e c h e s t and im m e d ia te ly a f t e r i t hit you, what d id you do?A I s ta y e d r i g h t where I w a s .Q You s ta y e d r i g h t w here you w e re; you d i d n ' t goany place?A No.Q I t d i d n ' t c u t you?A I t b ro k e th e s k i n .Q I t b ro k e th e s k in ?A Y e s .Q How b i g a p la c e was i t ?A Not m uch.Q J u s t h i t and b ro k e th e s k in ?A H i t f l a t .Q J u s t a s l i g h t b r e a k In th e s k in ?A Y e s .Q And t h i s i s a l l t h a t happened to y o u , i s t h a tcorrect?A T h a t * s r i g h t .Q Now, you d o n 't know who i t was t h a t a l l e g e d l y
on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 455AHearing
(je the s ta te m e n t , t h i s one v u lg a r s ta te m e n t t h a t you s a id .rou heard; you d o n 't know who i t was?A I do n o t . I was b u sy t e l l i n g th e p e o p le to move on and get o u t o f th e s t r e e t , when I h e a r d th e s t a t e m e n t .q You d i d n ' t h a v e to go to th e d o c t o r w ith t h i slittle break i n th e s k i n , d id you?A N o, I d i d n ' t .Q D id you se e any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts ? Do you knowwho the D e fe n d a n ts i n t h i s c a s e a re ?A Do w hat?Q Do you know who th e D e fe n d a n ts i n t h i s c a s e a r e ?A I know th e m ain D e fe n d a n ts , y e s .Q Maybe w e'd b e t t e r — D id you s e e M a rio n Pagethere th at n ig h t ?A No.Q D id you seequestion?A D id n o t .Q D id you seequestion?A N o.Q D id yo u seeA D id n o t .Q D id you seeA D id n o t .Q D id you seeA I d id n o t .Q D id you se e
S l a t e r K in g t h e r e on th e n i g h t i n
C h a r l i e Jo n e s t h e r e on th e n i g h t i n
D r . A nderson t h e r e t h a t n ig h t ?
R e v . K in g t h e r e t h a t n ig h t ?
R e v . A b e rn a th y t h e r e t h a t n ig h t ?
M rs . Ruby H u r le y t h e r e t h a t n ig h t ?
M otion Po p P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. J2( 456alearing on
A Who i s t h a t ? q M rs . Ruby H u r le y ?A I d o n 't b e l i e v e I know h e r .q How many b o t t l e s d id you se e ? O n ly t h a t one„as the only one you a c t u a l l y saw , w a sn ’ t i t ?A I h e a rd a l o t o f b o t t l e s b e in g b r o k e n .q B u t you d o n 't know where th e y were b e in g b ro k en ?A They w ere b ro k e n a l l arou nd o u r f e e t .
q Around y o u r f e e t ?A T h a t 's r i g h t , i n th e s t r e e t , where we were i n th estreet.q T h ere was nobody e l s e h i t b u t y o u , t h a t youknow, was th e r e ?A Y e s , th e r e was a S t a t e T ro o p e r h i t .Q Who was i t ?A S t a t e T ro o p e r was h i t .q Who was i t ? Who was t h a t S t a t e T ro o p e r?A H is name i s H i l l , I b e l i e v e .Q, H i l l , T ro o p e r H i l l ?A Y e s .Q, Was t h e r e anybody e l s e ?A Not t h a t I know o f .Q, N ot t h a t you know o f . Now, you say t h e r e weres°me 2,000 p e o p le i n th e r a d iu s o f th e s p a ce betw een th e 2“ and 300 b lo c k s o f S o u th Ja c k s o n S t r e e t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t , I w ould e s t im a t e i t a t t h a t .Q T h is i s w hat you w ould e s t im a t e i t ; now, howyou know t h a t t h e r e was t h i s number o f p e r s o n s ?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o . 727 457A
A W e ll* t h a t was my own i n t e r p r e t a t i o n * I meanestimate t h a t t h e r e was 2*000 p e o p le .Q What d id you u s e a s a b a s i s o f y o u r e s t im a t e ?A W ell* on th e amount* on th e l a r g e crowd t h a twas gathered.QAQAQwalk i s n o t AQAQ
B eg p a rd o n ?The l a r g e crowd t h a t was g a t h e r e d .D id you co u n t any p e o p le ?I d id n o t co u n t them .You d id n o t c o u n t them ; you know t h a t th e s i d e - v e ry w id e?T h at *s r i g h t .I s t h a t r i g h t ?T h a t ’ s r i g h t .And t h i s was J u s t th e d is t a n c e o f a s h o r t b lo c kand a h a lf?A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .0 I s n ’ t t h a t tr u e ?A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .0, So* t h i s I s J u s t y o u r e s t im a t e —MR. RAWLS: Y o u r Honor* h e ’ s t e s t i f i e d 3 o r4 tim e s on t h a t .THE COURT: I t h in k a b o u t 5 t im e s . He h a ss a id t h a t I t i s s im p ly an e s t im a t e and I r e a l l y see no re a s o n to c o n t in u e a s k him th e q u e s t io n . I r e a l i z e h e 's u n d e r c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n and you have a w ide l a t i t u d e * b u t l e t ’ s t r y n o t to r e p e a t i t so m uch.MR. HOLLOWELL: I was t r y i n g to e s t a b l i s h w h eth er
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P re lim a, n a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 458a
he had any b a s i s f o r h i s e s t i m a t e . I f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s .THE COURT: W e ll , he s im p ly s a id he lo o k e da t th e crow d and t h a t ’ s h i s e s t im a t e ; and I d o n 't th in k he ca n do any b e t t e r th a n t h a t and I d oub t i f you c o u ld g e t any more o u t o f i t by b e la b o r in g i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e we have any f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s . . . . J u s t a moment.Q Oh y e s , h a v e you s e e n W yatt W a lk e r , do you knowhim when you se e h im , R e v . W yatt W alker?A I d o .Q D id you see him on t h a t n ig h t i n t h a t v i c i n i t y onthat o c c a s io n ?A I d id n o t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e th e r e a r e anyf u r t h e r q u e s t io n s .REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. LEVERETT:Q C a p t a in C le g g , w h a t, i f a n y t h in g , had j u s tpreceded t h i s d is t u r b a n c e t h a t you had to go i n and h e lp quell? A B a ck on May 10 - -MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u rt - MR. LEVERETT: I ' l l w ith d raw th e q u e s t io n .Q I want to a d v is e th e w it n e s s , I mean on t h i snight? A O h, e x c u s e me. R e p e a t y o u r q u e s t io n .Q W hat, i f a n y t h in g , had j u s t p re c e d e d th e d i s turbance w h ich you had to go i n and q u e l l? Was t h e r e
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 459A
anything t h a t had j u s t p r e c e d e d t h a t ?A Y e s , th e y were h a r a s s in g th e o f f i c e r s t h a twere down i n t h a t a r e a . They were h o l l e r i n g a t th e p e o p le going by i n t h e i r c a r s .Q You m e n tio n e d , I b e l i e v e , on c r o s s t h a t somearrests had been made p r i o r t o t h i s d i f f i c u l t y t h a t you had: Were you p r e s e n t when th o s e a r r e s t s were made?A No.Q You were n o t?A No s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , you may go down.We w i l l ta k e a r e c e s s a t t h i s tim e u n t i l 9 :3 0 tom orrowm o rn in g .5 :0 0 P .M . , AUGUST 1 , 1962: HEARING RECESSED
9:30 A.M. . AUGUST 2 , 1 9 6 2 : HEARING RESUMED:Mid. RAWLS: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , b e fo r ewe s t a r t th e p r o c e e d in g s t h i s m o rn in g , I s h o u ld l i k e to c a l l th e w it n e s s e s t h a t we a n t i c i p a t e p u t t i n g up to d a y and see I f th e y a r e a l l p r e s e n t :I s D a v id 0 ! S c o t t h e re ?I s M a rv in L o r ig h e re ?M r. C h a r le s S t a n f i e l d , 'P . L . W estb ro o k ;L t . B . L . M anley o f th e p o l i c e f o r c e ;C a p t . J . E . F r ie n d , C a p ta in o f th e D e t e c t i v e s ; A s s i s t a n t C h i e f , Jam es J . L a i r s e y ;F i r e C h ie f W. E . Moody;
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o .727 460A
P a tr o lm a n R . G . W i l l s ;A s s i s t a n t C h i e f L e s l i e Sum m erford.Mr. M a r s h a l l , c a l l t o th e s ta n d th e w it n e s s , D av id O 'S c o t t , p l e a s e . MR. DAVID R , 0 'SCOTT
8t h w itn e s s c a l l e d and sworn I n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q You a r e M r. D a v id O 'S c o t t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t , s i r .Q Have you b een sw orn, M r. O 'S c o t t ?A Y es s i r , I h a v e .Q Where do you l i v e , Mr. O 'S c o t t ?A I n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , s i r .Q What o c c u p a t io n o r p r o f e s s io n do you f o l lo w ?A I 'm a f r e e l a n c e n e w s w r ite r and a l s o ac o lle ctio n c o n s u l t a n t .Q Do you have any know ledge c o n c e r n in g th eincident w h ich happened I n c o n n e c t io n w ith th e A lb a n y Movement's a c t i v i t i e s h e re on J u l y 21?A Y e s s i r , I d o .Q What i s t h a t k n o w le d g e , M r. O 'S c o t t ?A To th e b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c t i o n , th e 2 1 s t o fJanuary was a S a t u r d a y , a t w h ich tim e I was p r e s e n t a t th e Shiloh B a p t i s t C h u rch c o v e r in g th e mass m e e tin g s o f th e Albany Movem ent.Q Do you know w h eth er i t was m orn ing o r a fte r n o o n ?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * No. 727 461A
A I was th e r e i n th e a f t e r n o o n th ro u g h th e l a t t e rpart of the a f t e r n o o n and i n t o th e e v e n in g * s i r .Q, D id I s a y Ja n u a r y - you u n d e r s to o d me to sa yJuly, is t h a t r i g h t ?A Y es* J u ly * I 'm s o r r y .Q Are you t a l k i n g a b o u t J u l y ?A J u ly * y e s s i r . T h is was a c o u p le o f weeks a g o .Q D id you se e any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts who a r e i ncourt here a t th e mass m e e tin g i n th e a f t e r n o o n o f J u l y 21?A Y e s s i r * I d i d .Q W il l you name th e ones you saw* p le a s e ?A The o n ly two t h a t I saw were Mr. S l a t e r K in gand Mr. C h a r l ie J o n e s .Q Jo n e s and K in g * I s t h a t r i g h t ?A R i g h t .Q What* I f a n y th in g * d id you se e them do o r h e a rthem say i n c o n n e c t io n w ith th e mass m e e tin g o f th e A lb a n y Movement a t t h a t tim e ?A W e ll* th e y had in fo rm e d th e p e o p le i n th e co n gregation t h a t th e y had b een s e r v e d w ith an i n j u n c t i o n and*4* the b e st o f my know ledge* s a id t h a t th e y c o u ld n o t Participate a c t i v e l y .Q A c t i v e l y ?A A c t i v e l y i n any d e m o n s tr a tio n s * d e m o n s tr a tio n sas such, i ca n n o t remember th e e x a c t words t h a t went on without my n o te s o r w ith o u t l i s t e n i n g to ta p e s to be p la y e d baek. one o f th e rem arks made was t h a t " I ca n n o t le a d any itlarch but i t i s n o t up to me"* b e ca u se I have t h i s p ap er*
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 462A
and they waved t h i s c o u r t i n j u n c t i o n up i n f r o n t , on th e pulpit, so to s p e a k .q Who was t h a t s ta te m e n t made by?A By C h a r l i e Jo n e s .Q H e 's one o f th e D e fe n d a n ts , I s n ' t he?A Y e s s i r .Q Now, to w hat s i z e g rou p o r a u d ie n c e was t h a tstatement made?A B e t t e r th a n 200 o r 250 i n d i v i d u a l s .Q, I ' l l a s k you w h eth er o r n o t i t was made a t th esame lo c a le o r th e same c h u r c h t h a t th e p r e v io u s m e e tin g s of the Albany Movement had b een h e ld ?A One o f th e p r e v io u s c h u r c h e s , s i r .Q I n w hat c h u rc h was i t made?A I t was made a t th e S h i lo h C h u rch .A At th e S h i l o h C h u rch . Now, have you o b s e rv e dthe pattern o f t h e s e m arch es o r p r o t e s t s i n th e p a s t ?A Y e s s i r , I h a v e , s in c e th e v e ry b e g in n in g .Q What i s y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n o f th e p a t t e r n t h a tthey took or f o l lo w e d ?A W e ll , t o th e b e s t o f my k n o w le d g e , i t s t a r t e dtowards the m id d le o f Decem ber o f l a s t year,* th e y s t a r t e d 4 large g r o u p s , i n l a r g e num bers b a c k i n th e l a t t e r p a r t last y e a r . I b e l i e v e t h e r e were upw ards o f 200 i n th e Arches th a t d id ta k e p l a c e . T h en , I b e l i e v e i t was i n 4rll and M arch, M arch o r A p r i l I s h o u ld s a y , th e A lb a n y Movement or one o f th e o r g a n iz a t io n s s t a r t e d p i c k e t i n g ln the c i t y i n th e 100 b lo c k o f N o rth W ash in gto n le a d in g
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 7 2 7 463
0D to these d e m o n s tr a t io n s and m arch es t h a t have ta k e n place the p a s t m on th . S a tu r d a y n i g h t , th e 2 1 s t o f J u l y ,Slater King and C h a r l i e Jo n e s were s p e a k in g to th e grou p - this to the b e s t o f my know ledge was a f t e r 8:30 to 9 o ’ c l o c k in the evening —Q On what d a te was t h a t ?A J u l y 2 1 , S a t u r d a y . And I n o t ic e d i n th e b a ckdoor the R ev. K in g , h i s w ife and s e v e r a l o t h e r p e o p le come into the back d o o r and go i n t o th e p a s t o r 's stud y,- and a t this time somebody came up from th e b a ck room .Q Do you r e f e r to th e D e fe n d a n t , th e R everen dMartin Luther K in g ?A R e v e re n d M a r t in L u th e r K in g , y e s s i r .Q Now, y o u r te s t im o n y i s t h a t he came t o th e d o o rof the church w h ile S l a t e r K in g and Jo n e s were i n th e process o f a d d r e s s in g th e g a t h e r in g ?A Y e s .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h a t wasnot th e t e s t im o n y .THE COURT: W e ll , th e r e c o r d w i l l show.Q M r. R a w ls : W e ll , what i s y o u r te s t im o n y.ve to t h a t ?A S l a t e r K in g and C h a r l ie Jo n e s had j u s t c o n c lu d e de‘1(iea th e ir c o n v e r s a t io n s to th e p e o p le i n th e c o n g r e g a t io n 3i the S h ilo h B a p t i s t C h u rch , and a c o lo r e d m in is t e r g o t J*E'at the p r e s e n t tim e I ca n n o t t h in k o f h i s name - and
116 was a d d r e s s in g th e c o n g r e g a t io n . And a c o lo r e d g e n tle m a n Carae from th e b a c k room w here th e R e v . M a r tin L u th e r K in g
gearing on M o tion F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 7 2 7 464a
and his w ife and s e v e r a l o t h e r p e o p le t h a t I c o u l d n 't see because o f th e cro w d , and w h isp e re d so m e th in g to th e jeverend on th e p u l p i t . And I ca n n o t assum e what he w h is pered. But th e crowd was i n su ch a f r e n z y th e n t h a t th e y sere going to m arch on th e C i t y o f A lb a n y , no m a tte r what happened, no m a t te r who le d th em . And a t t h i s tim e th e y aid march.Q Was t h e r e a n y t h in g s a id p r i o r to th e m arch byJones or K ing e i t h e r one r e l a t i v e to any i n j u n c t i o n h a v in g been issued by th e F e d e r a l C o u rt?A Y e s s i r , th e r e w as.Q. What was s a id a b o u t t h a t ?A To th e b e s t o f my k n o w le d g e , th e y s a id t h a tfe have r e c e iv e d t h i s F e d e r a l i n j u n c t i o n and we ca n n o t actively le a d you i n t h e s e d e m o n s t r a t io n s " , and I b e l i e v e ^ Jones s a id " I c a n n o t le a d you m y s e lf b u t you ca n g o " , or words to t h i s e f f e c t .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we move th at t h a t be s t r i c k e n . I t ' s r e p e t i t i v e . H e 's a lr e a d y t e s t i f i e d to t h i s , i t ' s th e same d i r e c t e x a m in a t io n , what th e rem arks w e re »THE COURT: W e ll , h e 's j u s t t e s t i f y i n g moreln d e t a i l . T h a t 's th e im p r e s s io n I g e t . I t ' s s im p ly more i n d e t a i l . I o v e r r u le th e o b j e c t i o n .Q M r. R a w ls : M r. 0 ' S c o t t , were you e v e r in3it °f* the crow ds o r g ro u p s who g a th e r e d d u r in g th e p r o g r e s s ' °ne of th e s e m arch p r o t e s t s y o u r s e l f ?A The m in u te m ost o f th e m a rch e rs w ould le a v e o r
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No, 727 465
lould s ta r t f o r to w n , I w ould go im m e d ia te ly to a phone to call a wire s e r v ic e i n A t l a n t a , and th e n I w ould go to th e downtown a re a a p p r o x im a te ly a t O g le th o r p e and Ja c k s o n to begin to meet th e grou p when th e y a r r i v e d ,Q When th e m a rc h in g g r o u p , w h ich c o n s t i t u t e d o n lya small p a rt o r p o r t io n o f th e crowd t h a t was In th e churches and aro u n d th e c h u r c h e s , when th e y w ould m arch out, what would become o f th e r e s t o f th e p e o p le who were in the church and who were i n th e s u r r o u n d in g a r e a th e r e adjacent to th e c h u r c h , w hat w ould be t h e i r a c t io n s ?A W e ll , t h i s l a s t b i g m arch t h a t I w itn e s s e d onbis Saturday n i g h t , to s t a r t from th e b e g in n in g a l l th e rcy to the e n d , i t seemed t h a t th e ch u rch c o m p le te ly emptied i t s e l f ; and I th o u g h t th e r e w ould be a p p r o x im a te ly a-to 500 in t h i s m a rch . I t seemed t h a t e v e ry b o d y w ould go R edirection o f th e m a r c h e r s .Q Y o u 'r e s p e a k in g a b o u t th e m arch o f J u l y 24?A No s i r , J u l y 2 1 .Q J u l y 21?A Y e s s i r . And i t seemed t h a t e v e ry b o d y wentthe m arch ers and th e n when th e y g o t to O g le th o r p e Jackson, th e number had d w in d le d c o n s id e r a b ly .Now, on J u l y 2 4 , w h ich was a T u e s d a y , i f my serves me c o r r e c t , o f l a s t m onth, I remember th e "deters coming down S o u th Ja c k s o n and p a s t O g le th o r p e a t "'°ac4 where th e y were s to p p e d by th e C h ie f o f P o l i c e and ‘er o f f i c e r s . The C h ie f a sk e d them I f th e y had a p a ra d e Perait, 1 b e l i e v e , w h ich th e le a d e r s a id th e y d id n o t .
1 that time th e y were a sk e d to d is p e r s e , w h ich th e y d id
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 46 6 a
not do. And one t h in g l e d to a n o th e r and th e y were ta k e n into custody. A t t h i s same tim e a l a r g e crowd o f N egro es had f r o n t e d O g le t h o r p e A ven u e, b o th e a s t and w est o f Jackson, and a l l th e way to th e 2 - and 300 b lo c k s o f Jackson. I would e s t im a t e a crowd o f w e ll In e x c e s s o f 2,000. There were a - - T r a f f i c was c o n g e s te d t e r r i b l y on Oglethorpe, g o in g b o th n o r th and s o u t h . T h ere were a l o t of spectators and b y s ta n d e r s and th e r e 'were a l o t o f f i l t h y insults b e in g h u r le d a t th e p o l i c e .Q Now, y o u r judgm ent a b o u t what i s f i l t h y o r n o tfilthy might n o t co n fo rm b u t w i l l you s t a t e to th e C o u rt just ex actly w hat was s t a t e d and t o whom I t was a d d r e s s e d and so on, i f you know?A Y o u r H o n or, th e s e rem arks t h a t were made bythese people were e x tr e m e ly low g ra d e a n d , i f th e C o u rt so desires me to answ er th e q u e s t io n e x a c t l y , I w i l l .THE COURT: Y e s , s t a t e e x a c t l y what you h e a r d .A The W itn e s s : Thank y o u . I was s t a n d in gr4ht on the n o rth w e s t c o r n e r o f O g le th o r p e and Ja c k s o n and the c o lo re d p e o p le were on th e s o u th s id e o f th e stree1h and I h e a rd s u ch t h in g s a s "you God-damn c o c k - s u c k in g
2-ice, go hom e", "you w h it e - f a c e d m o t h e r - f u c k e r s " , " e a t shin you b a s t a r d s " , words l i k e t h i s . T h is went on f o r
»eli over a h a l f an h o u r , a t w hich tim e th e C h i e f o rd e re d “ls men and th e o t h e r men t h a t were a s s i s t i n g him t h a t “ne? were g o in g down I n t o th e s o u th s id e o f O g le th o r p e
0 break up t h i s crowd b e fo r e - I assume b e fo r e any ^ broke o u t .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 467A
MR. HOLLOWELL: We o b j e c t to any a s s u m p tio n t h a t he may h a v e .THE COURT: Y e s , we w i l l r u le o u t anya s s u m p tio n . I t ' s n o t c l e a r to me - b u t go a h e a d .Q M r. R a w ls : "W ithout s t a t i n g y o u r a s s u m p tio n ,have you had e x p e r ie n c e i n r e p o r t in g s i m i l a r in s t a n c e s o v e r the Country?A Y es s i r , I h a v e , n o th in g q u it e l i k e t h i s . I wasat the K o h le r s t r i k e a t K o h le r , W is c o n s in , on one o r two in s ta n c e s .Q On th e b a s i s o f what you saw t h e r e , w i l l youstate y o u r o p in io n r e l a t i v e to th e te n s e n e s s o f th e s itu a tio n and th e p r o b a b i l i t y o f an e x p lo s io n ?MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we w i l l o b j e c t to t h a t . T h is w ould be p u r e ly c o n je c t u r e and c o n c lu s io n and o p in io n and s p e c u l a t i v e . T here i s no e v id e n c e t h a t t h i s man i s any e x p e r t on th e e v a lu a t io n o f th e tem p ers o f p e o p le . He s a y s he h as w itn e s s e d one s t r i k e , and c e r t a i n l y t h i s I s n o t s u f f i c i e n t to q u a l i f y him a s an e x p e r t , so a s to be a b le to g iv e h i s o p in io n .MR. RAWLS: I t h i n k , Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s ,w h atev er he s a y s a b o u t h i s q u a l i f i c a t i o n s w ould go to th e e v a lu a t io n w h ich s h o u ld be g iv e n to h i s o p in io n . T h at d o e s n ’ t mean he c a n ' t e x p r e s s an o p in io n bu t i f th e C o u r t d o e s n 't t h in k he h a s had a g r e a t d e a l o f e x p e r ie n c e t h a t w ould e n a b le him to form su ch an o p in io n , t h a t w ould go to th e e v a lu a t io n o f h i s t e s t i -
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mony, b u t n o t t o th e a d m i s s i b i l i t y o r n o n - a d m i s s i b i l i t y o f h i s o p in io n ; and we i n s i s t t h a t h i s o p in io n i s a d m is s ib l e .MR, HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , u n le s s he i s an e x p e r t , he h as no r i g h t to g iv e h i s e v i d e n t i a r y o p in io n , a s th e r e w ould be no p la c e f o r i t i n a c o u r t o f la w , u n d e r th e law s o f e v id e n c e t h a t I know.THE COURT: W e ll , I d ou b t t h a t i n a s i t u a t i o n l i k e t h i s you w ould e v e r have a P h . D . I n P s y c h o lo g y s t a n d in g aro u n d a v a i l a b l e to t e s t i f y .I t h in k p o l i c e o f f i c e r s and p e o p le who have had e x p e r ie n c e i n o b s e r v in g th e p u b l i c , p e o p le who a re g e n e r a l l y q u a l i f i e d by t h e i r e x p e r ie n c e to have o p in io n s , I t h in k t h e y 'r e q u a l i f i e d to t e s t i f y .And when you p r e s e n t th e D e fe n d a n t s ’ s id e o f th e c a s e , i f you h a v e p e o p le o f t h i s t y p e , p o l i c e o f f i c e r s o r p e o p le e n g a g e d i n law e n fo r c e m e n t, o r p e o p le who a re accu sto m ed to w a tc h in g th e p u b l ic crow ds and d e a l i n g w ith them , I e x p e c t to a llo w you to o f f e r te s t im o n y to th e c o n t r a r y , i f you h ave i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we d o n 't e x p e c t , we w o u ld n 't e x p e c t to p u t on someone to g iv e an o p in io n who h a s n o t i n th e t r i a l l a i d a s u f f i c i e n t f o u n d a t io n to j u s t i f y h i s g i v i n g an o p in io n . I t h in k t h i s w ould be e le m e n ta r y I n th e law o f e v id e n c e , t h a t t h i s w ould n o t be p r o p e r ; and th e r e h a s been no e l i c i t a t i o n o f In fo r m a t io n from t h i s w it n e s s , i n d i c a t i n g t h a t h e 's e v e r seen any su ch
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e x c e p t on one o c c a s io n ; and t h i s c e r t a i n l y d oes n o t p u t him i n th e c a t e g o r y o f b e in g one q u a l i f i e d to make t h i s k in d o f e v a l u a t i o n . He i s n o t a p o l i c e o f f i c e r and by th e te s t im o n y h e 's o n ly had one e x p e r ie n c e and c e r t a i n l y t h i s i s n o t s u f f i c i e n t .Q M r. R a w ls : M r. 0 ' S c o t t , you r e l a t e d j u s tone — MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we a re a s k in g f o r a r u l i n g b e fo r e he p r o c e e d s .THE COURT: I im a g in e w hat c o u n s e l I s a b o u tto do i s to a s k him a b o u t th e e x t e n t o f h i s e x p e r ie n c e .MR. RAWLS: T h a t 's e x a c t l y what I in te n d e dto d o . THE COURT: And I w i l l r u le on i t as soonas he c o m p le te s q u a l i f y i n g h im .Q M r. R a w ls : Mr. O ’ S c o t t , you r e l a t e d oneincident w here you c o v e r e d a mass d e m o n s tr a t io n , i s t h a t the only one t h a t y o u ’ ve e v e r w itn e s s e d i n y o u r c a r e e r as a newspaper man?A No s i r , I ' v e se e n a l o t o f th e s e m ass d e m o n stra tions here i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia . I t h in k I ' v e seen j u s t about e v e ry one t h e y 'v e had w ith few e x c e p t io n s o f th e ®inor p i c k e t i n g . I have c o v e re d p la n e c r a s h e s , a u to accid en ts, f i g h t s , n o t a g r e a t p r o p o r t io n b u t 10 o r 15 p e o p le , an(i then t h i s s t r i k e e v e n t i n K o h le r , W is c o n s in , w h ich involved s e v e r a l th o u s a n d .Q S o , you h ave had e x p e r ie n c e i n e v a lu a t in g th e
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n ,, No. 727 470A
s itu a tio n s w ith r e f e r e n c e to crow ds,, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A Y e s s i r .Q Now, on th e b a s is o f y o u r e x p e r ie n c e and whatyou saw on t h e s e o c c a s io n s , s t a t e w h eth er o r n o t , i n y o u r opinion, th e r e was s e r io u s s t r i f e p r e s e n t and an e x p lo s io n was Imm inent?A W e ll , s i r , I f e e l t h a t s o m e th in g - -MR. HOLLOWELL: J u s t a moment, s i r ] I o f f e r my same o b j e c t i o n and f o r th e same r e a s o n s .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , I w i l l r u l e on i ta t t h i s t im e . I o v e r r u le th e o b j e c t i o n .A The W it n e s s : May I p ro ce e d ?THE COURT: Y e s .A The W itn e s s : L e t me sa y t h i s , C o u n s e l, i fthe C h ie f o r somebody im m e d ia te ly u n d e r h im , C h i e f o f Police P r i t c h e t t , had n o t moved i n t o t h a t a r e a im m e d ia te ly as he d id , th e L o rd o n ly knows what w ould h a v e happened i n the C ity t h a t n i g h t . The crowd 'was becom ing u n r u ly , e x tr e m e ly u n ru ly . I im a g in e th e r e were a few w h ite c i t i z e n s t h a t were becom ing u p s e t b e c a u se o f th e la n g u a g e t h a t was b e in g use(l . I t h in k i t c o u ld be b e s t d e s c r ib e d - -MR. HOLLOWELL: We o b j e c t to h i s im a g in a t io n . THE COURT: Y e s , we d o n 't want any Im a g in a t i o n . I f you o b s e rv e d anybody g e t t i n g u p s e t , you can so t e s t i f y , b u t we d o n 't want any im a g in a t io n .Q M r. R a w ls : Go a h e a d , b u t l e a v in g o u t th eA g i n a t i o n p a r t ?A I t h in k th e b e s t way to d e s c r ib e th e e n t i r e
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n * N o, 727
c o n d itio n s t h a t e v e n in g * i f I may go on t o th e p o in t where Chief P r i t c h e t t d id le a d t h e la w e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s i n t o the So u th * 200 b l o c k s o u th on Ja c k s o n * I t h i n k t h a t w ould best d e s c r ib e i t .Q Su p p o se you go a h e a d and d e s c r ib e w hat you saw?A A t t h a t tim e C h i e f P r i t c h e t t o r d e r e d t h r e e o fhis m o to r c y c le o f f i c e r s to form * I b e l i e v e th e r i g h t word i s * co rd o n a ro u n d h im .Q Form a what* I d i d n ' t u n d e r s ta n d you?A Form more o r l e s s a s p e a rh e a d t o go ah ea d o fhim. He had one m o to r c y c le im m e d ia te ly i n f r o n t o f him and two o f f t o th e s i d e ; and th e n he was on f o o t * w a lk in g and le a d i n g h i s men i n g ro u p s o f two down th e c e n t e r o f th es tr e e t* a s k in g th e p e o p le to go hom e. He s a i d t h e y had nob u sin e ss h e re * t h a t som ebody was g o in g t o g e t h u r t and* i fthey d i d n ' t g o home — no e x c u s e me — He s a i d som ebodywas g o in g t o g e t h u r t and i t w ould be b e s t i f th e y d id go home. A t t h i s tim e b o t t l e s and r o c k s s t a r t e d f l y i n g from the w est an d e a s t s id e s o f t h e s t r e e t . I d id n o t se e who threw an y o f t h e s e b o t t l e s . A l l I c a n s a y i s t h a t th e m inute e v e r y b o d y c r o s s e d th e c e n t e r l i n e o f O g le t h o r p e going s o u th on Ja c k s o n * t h e r e w ere n o t h in g b u t N egro
people I n t h a t a r e a . I m y s e lf p e r s o n a l l y was i n a p p r o x im ately th e c e n t e r o f th e g ro u p o f law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s going down* and I g o t m id-w ay down th e b l o c k a t a p p r o x im ately H ig h la n d A l le y * w h ich w ould be h a l f - w a y betw een O g le th o rp e and H ig h la n d * when one o f th e law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s y e l l e d a t m e, "Dave* lo o k o u t . " A t t h a t tim e I
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 7 27 472A
looked up and I saw t h i s b o t t l e come w h iz z in g a t me and I ducked and i t g la n c e d me on th e s id e o f th e h e a d , and it broke h a r m le s s ly o r b ro k e on th e grou n d w ith o u t g e t t i n g any f u r t h e r .Q W il l you d e s c r ib e a s m in u t e ly a s you can fromyour r e c o l l e c t i o n th e a p p ro x im a te number o f m i s s i l e s t h a t were h u rle d i n y o u r d i r e c t i o n ? Was I t j u s t a c a s u a l few or was i t a g r e a t number?A I t sounded l i k e th e 4 th o f J u l y , w ith f i r e crackers p o p p in g a l l o v e r ; and I n t h i s c a s e i t was b o t t l e s breaking a l l o v e r . I w ould e s t im a t e i n e x c e s s o f 7 5 .Q Now, d id you o b s e rv e a n y t h in g w ith r e fe r e n c e toanybody u n d e r ta k in g to e x p e c t o r a t e on anybody t h a t was p a r t ic ip a t in g i n th e e f f o r t to s to p th e co m m issio n th e r e ?A T h ere was one c o lo r e d man - t h e r e was one c o lo r e dnan on th e s id e w a lk t h a t y e l l e d - I im a g in e he y e l l e d to th e troopers - e x c u s e me -MR. HOLLOWELL: H e r e ’ s h i s I m a g in a t io n a g a in .A The W itn e s s :THE COURT: im a g in a t io n i n .Q. M r. R a w ls :O 'Scott?
O k a y , l e t me r e p h r a s e t h a t . Y e s , l e t ’ s d o n 't p u t any
J u s t s t a t e what he s a i d , Mr.
THE COURT: W hatever th e f a c t s a r e , noim a g in a t io n .A The W itn e s s : He s a id " O u ts id e a g i t a t o r s , gohome", and th e n he s p i t . I do n o t know w h eth er he h i t any ° f the law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s o r n o t . I d id se e th e
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 ^73A
spit le a v e h i s m outh.Q M r. R a w ls : D id he s p i t I n th e d i r e c t i o n o fthe law e n fo rc e m e n t o f f i c e r s ?A Y e s , he d i d .MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, may i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , he s s t i l - i l e a d i n g th e w it n e s s . Ask him , where ciid h e , THE COURT: W e ll , d id he s p i t I n th e d i r e c t i o n o f th e law e n fo rc e m e n t o f f i c e r s ?MR. HOLLOWELL: T h at i s l e a d i n g .THE COURT: I t may be s l i g h t l y l e a d i n g b u ti t ' s n o t o b j e c t i o n a b l e to t h a t e x t e n t . I o v e r r u le th e o b j e c t i o n .MR. RAWLS: The w itn e s s I s w ith th e C o u r t .BY THE COURT:Q J u s t b e fo r e th e c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n p r o c e e d s :When the w it n e s s was t e s t i f y i n g a b o u t th e o b sce n e la n g u a g e and i n s u l t s t h a t were b e in g h u r le d a t th e p o l i c e o f f i c e r s ,°n the o c c a s io n c o n c e r n in g w h ich th e w itn e s s t e s t i f i e d , at Is n ot c l e a r to me a s to who was h u r l i n g th e i n s u l t s at the o f f i c e r s ? Who?A They were c o lo r e d , com ing from th e c o lo r e d p e o p leacnoss th e s t r e e t .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d . You mayc r o s s -e x a m i n e .CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR. HOLLOWELL:Q You i n d i c a t e d you were a f r e e - l a n c e w r it e rand c o l l e c t i o n c o n s u lt a n t : What do you mean by " c o l l e c t i o n
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 474A
consultant"?A B i l l c o l l e c t o r .Q Who do you c o l l e c t f o r ?A I c o l l e c t f o r m y s e lf and f o r v a r io u s o th e rbusinesses and i n d i v i d u a l s w it h in th e C i t y o f A lb a n y .Q, Do you have a f i l e t h a t you keep o f a l l o f y o u rrecords p e r t a in i n g to c o l l e c t i o n s ?A Y e s , I d o .Q Where a r e th o s e f i l e s ?MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , t h a twould be e n t i r e l y i l l e g a l and in a d m is s ib le i n t h i s c a s e . T h at th row s no b e a r in g w h a te v e r on th e is s u e s in t h i s c a s e .THE COURT: I 'm g o in g to allow/ him to gofu r t h e r to s e e w h eth er I t does o r n o t . At t h i s p o in t I d o n 't see how/ i t c o u ld b u t I w i l l a l lo w him t o go fu r t h e r and se e I f I t h as any b e a r in g .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Where a r e th o s e f i l e s k e p t?A P r e s e n t l y , t h e y 'r e k e p t I n my o f f i c e a t homeM the f i l e s by e a c h q u a r t e r ly p e r io d a r e lo c k e d i n my safety d e p o s it v a u l t a t th e b a n k .Q Where do you l i v e ?A 1804 M e lr o s e .Q T h a t ’ s M - e - l - r —o - s - e - ( s p e l l i n g ) ?A I d id n o t h e a r y o u , C o u n s e l.Q T h a t 's M - e - l - r - o - s - e ( s p e l l i n g ) ?A M - e - l - r - o - s - e ( s p e l l i n g ) .Q Now, on th e n ig h t o f th e 2 1 st o f J u l y , 1962 ,
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 475 A
you s ta te d t h a t you saw S l a t e r K in g and C h a r le s Jo n e s a t Shiloh C hu rch?A T h a t r s r i g h t .Q And you s a id you h e a rd C h a r l i e Jo n e s sa y " I havebeen s e r v e d " , o r words to t h i s e f f e c t , "w ith a r e s t r a i n i n g order and I c a n ' t le a d any m arch o r p a r t i c i p a t e a c t i v e l y , what you do i s up to y o u " , th e words s u b s t a n t i a l l y a s th e ywere s t a t e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 1 s r i g h t .Q Y o u 'r e s h a k in g y o u r h e a d , y e s ?A Y e s .Q Now, you d id n o t h e a r S l a t e r K in g make anystatement to th e c o n t r a r y to t h a t , d id you?A N o.Q You d id n o t e v e r se e C h a r l ie Jo n e s o r S l a t e r K in gleading any s o - c a l l e d m arch o r d e m o n s tr a tio n ?A N o, b u t th e y s u re f i r e d them up f o r i t .Q What do you mean " f i r e d them u p "? They n e v e r4W say t h a t th e y s h o u ld m arch , d id th e y ?A They d i d n ' t sa y th e y s h o u ld j th e y d i d n ' t sa ythey sh o u ld n > t.Q They d i d n ' t h a v e any o b l i g a t i o n to sa y t h a tthey shouldn * t ?MR. RAWLS: T h a t w ould be a c o n c lu s io n o ft h i s w it n e s s , Y o u r H on or.THE COURT: Y e s , I d o n 't t h in k t h a t ' s ap ro p e r q u e s t io n , M r. H o l lo w e l l .Q M r. H o l lo w e l l : You f u r t h e r s t a t e d t h a t you
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saw Martin L u th e r K in g and h i s w ife come i n t o th e c h u rch after th ere had been some s p e a k in g ?A W hich i s -Q B eg p a rd o n ? T h a t ’ s r i g h t , i s n ' t i t ?A T h a t ’ s r i g h t , w h ich i s th e u s u a l p r o c e d u r e f o rthe leaders o f th e A lb a n y Movement to come to th e c h u rc h after the m e e tin g h a s g o t t e n u n d erw ay. They u s u a l ly arrive about an h o u r o r so a f t e r t h e y ’ ve s t a r t e d .Q As a m a t te r o f f a c t , a t th e tim e t h a t R e v . K in gand Mrs. K in g w ere com ing I n th e b a c k d o o r , th e grou p was beginning to le a v e th e c h u rc h o u t th e f r o n t , i s n ’ t t h a t true? AQAuntil theyQ A Q A Q A
th a t
fro® the b a ck room , w here th e R e v . K in g w as, and w h isp e rsomething to th e p e r s o n t h a t was on th e p u l p i t s p e a k in g to the
No.O r v e r y s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r ?S h o r t ly t h e r e a f t e r , b u t th e y were n o t l e a v in g came i n .You h e a rd R e v . K in g make no s ta te m e n t?No v e r b a l s ta t e m e n t , n o .You saw him w r it e no s ta te m e n t?N o.You saw him p a s s no s ta te m e n t?No, I saw what I assume to be one o f th e s e - MR. HOLLOWELL: W e ll , we o b j e c t to a n y th in g he a s su m e s , Y o u r H o n or.The W itn e s s : O k a y. 1 saw a c o lo r e d man come
C]?owd a t t h a t t i m e .
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ft B u t you d o n 't know w hat he s a i d , do you?A N o, I d o n 't .ft You d o n 't know w ith whom he had t a l k e d , do you?A No, I d o n 't .ft You d o n 't know who e l s e was i n th e same roomwhich R ev . K in g w as, do you?A T h ere w ere q u it e a few p e o p le i n t h e r e .ft A l l r i g h t , and you d i d n 't see th e man t h a t yousay went from t h a t room up to th e r o s tr u m , t a l k w ith anybodyin the room, d id you?A No.Q Now, you m en tio n e d th e f a c t t h a t you had o b s e r v -ei some p i c k e t i n g : What i s th e l a r g e s t number o f p e rs o n s of color t h a t you h ave se e n p i c k e t i n g on th e s t r e e t s o f Albany a t any one tim e ?A P e r s o n s o f w h a t, C o u n se l?ft C o lo r , N e g ro e s?A N e g r o e s . F o u r , i n th e 100 b lo c k n o r th o ffeshington.Q T h a t 's th e l a r g e s t number y o u 'v e e v e r s e e n ,^ y o u 'v e s e e n p e rh a p s how many d i f f e r e n t p i c k e t i n g
Occasions?A W e ll , I saw a n o th e r one l a s t S a t u r d a y , i n w hichêre were 10 i n th e 200 b lo c k o f B ro a d , ft On any o t h e r o c c a s io n ?A I have n o t ic e d p i c k e t s and n e w s -r e e ls - i n^wsreels and p e r s o n a l l y th ro u g h th e c o u n t r y .ft I mean h e re i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , betw een Decem ber
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 478a
of *6l and J u l y - w e l l , t h i s d a te - A u gu st o f '62?A I h a v e n e v e r se e n any p i c k e t i n g o t h e r th a ncolored p e o p le I n A lb a n y .Q A l l r i g h t now, on th o s e o c c a s io n s you sa y th elargest number a t any one tim e you have e v e r s e e n them was about 10?A Was 1 0 , c o r r e c t .Q And t h a t was w it h in a w hole b lo c k a r e a ?A I t was r i g h t im m e d ia te ly i n f r o n t o f th e C i t yHall o f A lb a n y , G e o r g ia .Q I n f r o n t o f th e C i t y H a l l?A Y e s .Q Where were th e y m a rch in g to and from ?A When I o b s e rv e d them , and th e y were s t a n d in g r i g h tthere, h o ld in g t h e i r p i c k e t s i g n s .Q O h, th e y i*?ere j u s t s t a n d in g h o ld in g t h e i r p i c k e t
s ig n s ? A Y e s »Q Where were th e y s ta n d in g ?A On th e s id e w a lk .Q W hereab ou ts on th e s id e w a lk ?A R ig h t i n th e m id d le o f i t .Q R ig h t i n th e m id d le o f th e s id e w a lk ?A Y e s .Q Would you know how wide t h a t s id e w a lk i s ?A I am g u e s s in g , and I ' d sa y 10 o r 12 f e e t w id e ,mâ e 8 to 10 .
10 o r 12 f e e t , a t l e a s t ?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727Hearing on Y iotio n F or P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 479A
A L e t ' s s a y , 8 to 10 f e e t w id e , a t l e a s t .Q D o n 't you know, Mr. O ' S c o t t , t h a t th e s id e w a lk
there is as w ide a s from me to you a p p r o x im a te ly ; i s n ' t i t ?A A p p r o x im a t e ly .Q Now, how f a r would you s a y t h a t I s ?A I w ould s a y 10 t o 12 f e e t .Q About 10 o r 12 f e e t ?A Y e s .Q Now, d id you know any o f th o s e p e r s o n s t h a t
were in th a t l in e ?A N ot p e r s o n a l l y , n o .Q D id you know them by name o r by s i g h t ?A N o. By s i g h t , I had seen a c o u p le o f them b e fo r e4 town.Q Were th e y i n th e p r o c e s s o f b e in g a r r e s t e d a tfeat time?A No, th e y were n o t .Q How lo n g d id you o b s e rv e them?A O h, a b o u t 10 m in u te s .Q A bout 10 m in u te s and th e n w hat d id th e y do o ryou d0?A They were - I d id n o t h e a r C h ie f P r i t c h e t t ' sC e lt ic command. I was a t th e head o f th e l i n e t r y i n g to % down th e s i g n s , so I c o u ld phone t h i s i n .Q At th e head o f what l i n e ?A The p i c k e t l i n e .Q Were you p i c k e t in g ?A No, I was n o t p i c k e t i n g . I was th e r e m e re ly to
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 480A
try and copy down th e s i g n s , th e c o n te n t s o f th e s i g n s .Q Do you remember what th e s ig n s s a id ?A W ith o u t my n o t e s , I w o u ld n 't want to v e n tu r e aguess on i t .Q How i s i t - do you have y o u r n o te s on what wassaid at th e ch u rc h ?A T h ere a r e some t h in g s you rem em ber, C o u n s e lo r ,and some t h in g s t h a t you lo o k a t t h a t d o n 't mean a n y t h in g to you and you f o r g e t p r o m p tly .THE COURT: The q u e s t io n now, M r. W itn e s sw as: Do yrou h ave any n o te s o f what was s a id a t th e church?A The W itn e s s : I h ave some n o t e s . I b e l i e v ethey're i n my c a r and some a t home.Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : B u t you d o n 1' t have any w ith you?A No, I h ave n o t . One o f th e —Q Now, when was t h i s t h a t you saw t h i s groupPicketing i n f r o n t o f C i t y H a l l?A S a t u r d a y , l a s t S a t u r d a y . I remember th e c o n t e n t s°f one o f th e s i g n s . I t was " P r i t c h e t t , open them c e l l s " .Q I 'm s o r r y ?A The c o n t e n t s o f one o f th e s ig n s s t a t e d , q u o te" M t c h e t t , open them c e l l s " , u n q u o te .Q Who had t h a t s ig n ?A One o f th e c o lo r e d p e o p le down t h e r e .Q You d o n 't know who?A No, I d o n 't .Q Do you remember what any o f th e o th e r s s a id ?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 481
A One was s i m i l a r to t h a t ; th e w o rd in g waschanged j u s t s l i g h t l y , b u t i t I n f e r r e d th e same t h i n g ,to open th e c e l l s .Q Where a r e t h e s e n o te s t h a t you h a ve?A I may h a v e some o f them i n my c a r ; i f n o t ,they'll be a t hom e.Q Do you w ant t o b r in g them up to u s , so we m ig h treview them?A I w o u ld n 't m in d .Q When was I t t h a t you saw t h i s ?A S a t u r d a y .Q. What S a tu r d a y ?A L a s t S a t u r d a y ,Q Where w ere y o u , a g a in ?A A t th e C i t y H a l l .Q What was th e o t h e r o c c a s io n s t h a t you s a id youhad seen p i c k e t i n g ?A B a c k i n A p r i l o f t h i s y e a r .Q What d id you see on t h a t o c c a s io n ?A C o lo r e d p e o p le w a lk in g up and down th e s t r e e twith s i g n s .Q How many?A F o u r ( 4 ) .Q Where?A I n th e 100 b lo c k n o r th o f W a s h in g to n .Q D id you see them sa y a n y t h in g t o anybody?A I c a n ' t remember t h a t , C o u n s e l; I b e l i e v e th e y^ n° t say a n y t h in g to a n y b o d y .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 482A
Q W e l l , a l l you saw them do was w a lk in g w ith th esigns, I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A W a lk in g . T h a t 1s r i g h t .Q As a m a t te r o f f a c t , t h e r e was 2 on one s id eof the s t r e e t and 2 on th e o t h e r , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q A l l r i g h t now, t e l l me a b o u t th e o t h e r o c c a s io n ?A W e ll , t h e r e were many o c c a s io n s i n th e 100 b lo c knorth of W a s h in g to n .MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e s , h e 'sg oin g i n t o t h i n g s t h a t were n o t ev e n to u c h e d o n , on d i r e c t , w h ich c o n s t i t u t e s a p r o lo n g a t io n o f t h i s h e a r in g ; and th e m a t te r s h e 's g o in g i n t o a r e e n t i r e l y i l l e g a l , I r r e l e v a n t and im m a t e r ia l . T h is s u i t f o r i n ju n c t io n i s b a se d on a l l e g e d v io le n c e and what h e 's t a l k i n g a b o u t and w hat h e 's g o in g I n t o i s m in u te d e t a i l s and th ro w s no l i g h t on t h a t p r o p o s i t io n w h a te v e r .THE COURT: W e ll , th e p e t i t i o n a l s o r e l a t e sto b o y c o t t s and p i c k e t i n g , a s I r e c a l l . D o e s n 't y o u r p e t i t i o n r e l a t e to p i c k e t i n g ?MR. HOLLOWELL: I t d o e s , s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , I o v e r r u le th eo b je c t i o n .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Thank y o u . Now, you sa yDu've seen them on many o c c a s io n s , b u t th e l a r g e s t number you h a v e e v e r s e e n a t an y one tim e was a b o u t 10?A Y e s .Q And th e o n ly t h in g you h ave e v e r seen them d o in g
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 483A
was c a rry in g a s i g n , w a lk in g up and down th e s id e w a lk , i s that c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's r i g h t .Q Now, y o u 'v e n e v e r b e lo n g e d t o any N egro c h u r c h ,have you?A N o, I h a v e n ' t .Q Y o u 'v e n e v e r had any a c q u a in ta n c e w ith N e g ro e sother than on an i n d i v i d u a l b a s i s , h ave you?A Would you c l a r i f y t h a t q u e s t io n ? I h ave knownany Negroes i n my l i f e t i m e , y e s .Q. I s a y , you h a v e n e v e r had any a c q u a in ta n c e w iththem oth er th a n on an i n d i v i d u a l b a s is ?A W e l l , I t h i n k w it h th e v/hite c i t i z e n s o f A lb a n y ,Georgia, I know some i n d i v i d u a l l y and some I d o n 't know a t all. MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u rt -A The W itn e s s : I know a l o t o f f o l k s .MR. HOLLOWELL: J u s t a moment, s i r . ' Wer e s p e c t f u l l y s u g g e s t t h a t th e answ er i s n o t r e s p o n s iv e .THE COURT: I d o n 't t h in k he u n d e r s ta n d s I t .Q M r. H o l i o w e l l : I w i l l r e s t a t e my q u e s t io n :you know an y N e g ro e s o t h e r th a n on a p u r e ly b u s in e s s asis , e x c e p t maybe th o s e who may have worked w ith you °r been In y o u r em ploym ent?I s t h i s i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia , o r —I n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia o r any p la c e e l s e ?Y e s , I d o .Where I n A lb a n y and who I n A lb a n y ?W e ll , D r . A n d e rso n .
AQAQA
gearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 434A
Q. I n what way do you know him ?A I know him th r o u g h b u s in e s s c o n t a c t s i n th e p a s t .Q I s a y , o t h e r th a n th r o u g h b u s in e s s o r I n anemployer-employee r e l a t i o n s h i p , o r a s s o c i a t i o n by v i r t u e o f having been em p loyed by th e same I n d i v i d u a l s ?A I s t i l l d o n 't u n d e r s ta n d h i s q u e s t io n , Y o u r H o n o r.THE COURT: W e ll -Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Do you have any N e g ro e s w ithwhom you s o c i a l i z e ?A No, I do n o t .Q As a m a t te r o f f a c t , you a r e g e n e r a l l y h o s t i l e t oNegroes, a r e n ' t you?A No, I 'm n o t ..MR. RAVILS: Now, i f Y o u r Honor p l e a s e ,w hether h e 's h o s t i l e o r n o t —THE COURT: H e 's answ ered th e q u e s t io n .He s a id he i s n o t .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Do you know I . D . W i l l i s ?A What was t h a t nam e, a g a in , C o u n s e lo r ?Q I . D . W i l l i s ?A O ff h a n d , th e name does n o t r in g a b e l l .Q D o e s n 't s t r i k e y o u . May I r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e cti°n by t e l l i n g you and i n d i c a t i n g t h a t h e 's th e man t h a t s tru ck f o r n o t g e t t i n g o u t o f y o u r way f a s t enough last f a l l ? MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s , Io b je c t to t h a t q u e s t io n ] i t ' s I r r e l e v a n t and im m a t e r ia l .
ring on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 48^A
THE COURT: Y e s , any p e r s o n a l m a t te r betw eent h is w it n e s s and any o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l , I d o n 't se e th a t t h a t h a s a n y t h in g to do w ith t h i s i s s u e h e r e ,Mr. H o l l o w e l l .MR HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we are t e s t i n g h i s c r e d i b i l i t y . He h a s j u s t s a id t h a t he was n o t h o s t i l e and t h a t ' s a p a r t o f th e way —THE COURT: You a sk e d him w h eth er he wash o s t i l e t o N e g ro e s a s a g r o u p .MR. HOLLOWELL: T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .THE COURT: B u t what y o u 'r e a s k in g him a b o u ti s some d i f f e r e n c e he may h a v e had w ith some i n d i v i d u a l , which w ould n o t be p e r t i n e n t to th e q u e s t io n a b o u t w hether he was h o s t i l e to them a s a g r o u p . F o r in s t a n c e , M r. H o l l o w e l l , i f you a n a ly z e i t , you w il l s e e and I t h in k you w i l l a g r e e t h a t t h a t w ould not be p e r t i n e n t b e c a u s e th e mere f a c t t h a t c o u n s e l may h i m s e l f a t some tim e had some d i f f e r e n c e w ith some member o f h i s own r a c e w o u ld n 't i n d i c a t e t h a t he was h o s t i l e to them., o r t h a t he m ig h t have had some d i f f e r ence w ith some member o f a n o th e r r a c e w o u ld n 't mean th a t he was h o s t i l e to th e r a c e . I d o n 't t h in k i n d iv id u a l s ~-MR. HOLLOWELL: W e ll , I t h in k p e rh a p s th e o n ly way t h a t you c o u ld p ro v e i t i s t h a t you w ould be a b le to e s t a b l i s h a s u f f i c i e n t number o f in s t a n c e s where th ere was no b a s i s f o r th e h o s t i l e a c t s w h ich h ave been e x h i b i t e d by t h i s i n d i v i d u a l tow ard a p e r s o n o f c o l o r .
Searing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. J2J 486 a
THE COURT: I f you h a v e any e v id e n c e t h a tt h i s w it n e s s h a s done s o m e th in g o r made some s ta te m e n t or ta k e n some a c t i o n t h a t I n d i c a t e s t h a t , a s a r a c e , th a t he i s h o s t i l e to th e N egro r a c e , I w ould a l lo w t h a t ; b u t n o t some I n d i v i d u a l a l t e r c a t i o n w ith some p e rs o n . I d o n 't t h in k t h a t ' s p e r t i n e n t .MR. HOLLOWELL: We’ re g o in g to show a s e r i e s , may i t p l e a s e th e C o u r t .THE COURT: I 'm g o in g to s u s t a i n th eo b je c t io n to any I n d i v i d u a l a l t e r c a t i o n .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t ,C oun sel I s somewhat a t a l o s s and I am w o n d erin g how you w ou ld be a b le to e s t a b l i s h th e h o s t i l i t y o f an i n d i v i d u a l , i f you were u n a b le to show on a s e r i e s o f t r a n s a c t i o n s t h a t t h i s was h i s r e a c t io n u n d e r th o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . To me t h i s w ould be th e n orm al m anner of p r o v in g s u ch a c a s e , where maybe you had n o t had a s ta te m e n t made to a grou p a s s u c h .THE COURT: I 'm n o t g o in g to a l lo w you t o goin to I n d i v i d u a l s i t u a t i o n s . I w ould a l lo w you to o f f e r p r o o f , I f you h ave a n y , o f any s ta te m e n ts t h a t the w it n e s s h a s m ade, e x p r e s s in g an a t t i t u d e o f h o s t i l i t y tow ard th e N egro r a c e . B u t when you g e t i n t o th e in d iv id u a l s i t u a t i o n s , I t h in k y o u 'r e g o in g beyond th e scope o f t h i s h e a r in g and I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .MR. HOLLOWELL: We xvould l i k e to in v o k e th e P r o v is io n s o f R u le 4 3 ( c ) and p r o f f e r o u r te s t im o n y P u rsu an t to t h a t s e c t i o n .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 437A
THE COURT: W e l l , you ca n su p p le m e n t th er e c o r d , a s you se e f i t .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : C a l l i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o n to t h i ssame month o f D ecem b er, 1961 , i n th e v i c i n i t y o f t h i s building, i s i t n o t t r u e t h a t you s t r u c k a N egro boy by the name o f W i l l i s , b e c a u se he d i d n ' t g e t o u t o f y o u r way?MR. RAWLS: Nov/, i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s ,I o b j e c t t o t h a t , a s i l l e g a l , I r r e l e v a n t and immat e r i a l , and h a s no .b e a r in g on th e i s s u e s i n t h i s c a s e .THE COURT: Y e s .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p l e a s e th e C o u r t , we a r e p r o f f e r i n g u n d e r 4 3 ( c ) ,THE COURT: A i l r i g h t , go ah ead and p u t i tin th e r e c o r d . I d o n 't c o n s id e r t h a t i t h a s any p e r t i n e n c e .A The W it n e s s : I d id n o t s t r i k e him b e c a u s e hedidn't g e t o u t o f my w ay. I s t r u c k him b e c a u s e he a lm o s t Mn me down.Q B e c a u se he a lm o s t r a n you down?A He b a ck e d i n t o me, t h a t ' s c o r r e c t , C o u n s e lo r .Q He was b a c k in g h i s c a r o u t?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A Y e s , h i s t r u c k .Q, And you g o t o u t o f y o u r c a r and made i t th eOccasion f o r y o u , assu m in g p o l i c e a u t h o r i t y , to come o v e r and to s t r i k e him ?A No, t h a t ' s w rong.
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 4 8 8 a
MR. RAWLS: Now Y o u r H onor p le a s e s ,, I o b j e c tto th e d is c o u r s e b e in g made by C o u n s e l to t h i s w it n e s s . The w it n e s s was i n th e p r o c e s s o f a n s w e rin g th e q u e s t io n .THE COURT: Y e s .MR, RAWLS: And he c u t i n on h i s an sw er —MR. HOLLOWELL: I had n e v e r f i n i s h e d th e q u e s t io n .MR. RAWLS: I f Y o u r H onor p le a s e s ,, I w ouldl i k e f o r w it n e s s e s h e r e a f t e r to be p e r m it t e d , a s th e r u le s p r o v i d e , to f i n i s h t h e i r answ er b e fo r e th e y a r e in t e r r u p t e d e i t h e r by me o r o t h e r c o u n s e l .THE COURT: Y e s , t h a t ' s w hat we s o u g h t toc a u t io n c o u n s e l a b o u t h e r e t o f o r e d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e s e p r o c e e d in g s , and I r e p e a t i t a t t h i s t im e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I ' l l be g la d t o .THE COURT: L e t ’ s a s k th e q u e s t io n and th e ng iv e th e w it n e s s tim e t o answ er i t and any i n s u f f i c ie n c y o r im p e r t in e n c e o r o b j e c t i o n to th e a n s w e r , you can make i t a t t h a t tim e and I ’ l l r u l e on i t a t t h a t t im e . L e t ' s t r e a t th e w it n e s s f a i r l y and l e t ' s have th e w it n e s s t r e a t c o u n s e l f a i r l y , and l e t ' s p r o c e e d in an o r d e r ly f a s h i o n .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : S o , you sa y he a lm o s t b a ck e d°ver you and th e n you h i t h im ; now, w hat was he d o in g« the tim e ? . . . S i r ? What was he d o in g ? What was
“6 doing a t th e tim e you h i t him ?A I had come I n t o th e P o s t O f f i c e b u i l d i n g -?ou wanted to h e a r th e a n s w e r , so I 'm g o in g t o g iv e you *4e whole s t o r y .
gearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , , N o. 727 ^ 89A
MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I ask e d him what was he d o in g a t th e tim e t h a t y o u , th e w it n e s s , h i t h im . The te s t im o n y i s t o th e e f f e c t t h a t he h i t him b e c a u s e — and I t h i n k th e r e was an o b j e c t i o n .MR. RAWLS: Now, Y o u r H onor p l e a s e —MR. HOLLOWELL: I w ant t o f i n d o u t what he was d o in g a t th e tim e t h a t he h i t h im .THE COURT: Su p p ose you j u s t l e t th e w it n e s st e l l a b o u t th e e n t i r e i n c i d e n t and th e n y o u ' l l g e t th e answ er to any d e t a i l e d q u e s t io n w ith o u t i t b e in g p i n - p o i n t e d . J u s t go a h e a d , M r. W itn e s s , s in c e th e y want th e in f o r m a t io n i n th e r e c o r d , j u s t go ah ead and t e l l a b o u t th e ’w hole t h i n g .A The W it n e s s : I was l e a v i n g th e P o s t O f f i c eB u ild in g a f t e r p i c k i n g up my m o rn in g m a il and s t a r t e d to cross th e s t r e e t b e h in d t h i s p a n e l t r u c k , a t w h ich tim e th e truck s t a r t e d t o b a c k u p , and had I n o t jum ped o u t o f th e way, th e t r u c k w ould h a v e d e f i n i t e l y k n o ck e d me down. At th is tim e I went aro u n d t o th e s id e o f th e cab o f th e t r u c k and, w ith o u t r e f e r e n c e to r a c e , c r e e d o r c o l o r , I a s k e d him, I s a i d , "What a r e y o u , a h o t - r o d d r i v e r ? " W ith th is he a s k e d me to "M ind my own G -d b u s i n e s s ." S o ,I opened th e cab o f th e t r u c k and s la p p e d him w ith th e open h a n d , and I w ould h a v e done i t , no m a tte r who he was, how b i g he was o r w hat he w as.Q. M r. H o l l o w e l l : E ven th o u g h you were ja y - w a lk in gand g o in g b e h in d th e t r u c k I n th e f i r s t p la c e ?
Searing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 490A
A I d i d n ' t know t h e r e were ja y - w a lk in g law s w it h inthe C it y .Q, Now, do you u s u a l l y h i t p e o p le who rub you th eurong way and who a r e a c t i n g l e g a l l y , s i r ? . . . S i r ?MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s , Io b je c t t o t h a t q u e s t io n . H e 's a ssu m in g t h a t th e man t h a t was b a c k in g o u t was b a c k in g l e g a l l y , w h ereas th e C o u rt knows a s a m a t t e r o f la w , when y o u 'r e p r o p e l l i n g a v e h i c l e i n any d i r e c t i o n , b a c k w a rd s , fo r w a r d s o r any o t h e r d i r e c t i o n , y o u 'r e su p p o se d t o lo o k where y o u 'r e g o i n g . T h a t ’ s th e la w . And from w hat he s a y s , th e man t h a t he re p rim a n d e d o r r e p r o a c h e d and s la p p e d was v i o l a t i n g th e la w , b a c k in g t h e v e h i c l e and n o t lo o k in g w here he was g o i n g .THE COURT: W e l l , t h i s i s j u s t an exam pleo f th e r e a s o n I d o n 't t h in k t h i s i n d i v i d u a l o r t h e s e i n d i v i d u a l I n c i d e n t s o u g h t t o be gone i n t o . What you do i s , i f you go i n t o th em , you g e t i n t o th e d e t a i l s o f th e i n d i v i d u a l a l t e r c a t i o n s , w h ich h a v e no b e a r in g w h a te v e r on w hat c o u n s e l i s t r y i n g to g e t a t , a s to w h eth er th e w it n e s s h a s any p r e ju d i c e a g a i n s t a r a c e as a w h o le . He h a s now s t a t e d th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s , Mr. H o l l o w e l l . S o , l e t ' s t r y to b r i n g i t to a c o n c lu s io n . Y o u 'v e g o t t e n i t i n th e r e c o r d now t h a t th e r e was an a l t e r c a t i o n and l e t ' s m in im iz e i t .MR. HOLLOWELL: We w ou ld l i k e th e an sw er to t h a t q u e s t io n and I t h i n k we can move on t o th en e x t o n e .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 7 2 ? 491A
THE COURT: A l l r ig h t .A The W it n e s s : H a v e n 't I an sw ered th e q u e s t io n ,C o u n s e l?Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : I t h in k n o t .A W e l l , w hat was y o u r q u e s t io n ?MR. HOLLOWELL: l a s t q u e s t io n , p le a s e ? M r. J o i n e r , w ould you r e a d th e
MR. RAWLS: q u e s t io n o u t? D i d n 't Y o u r H onor r u l e th e
MR. HOLLOWELL: He d id n o t .THE COURT: N ot y e t .MR. RAWLS: I f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e , I r e s p e c t -f u l l y a s k t h a t c o u n s e l i n t h i s c a s e a d d r e s s a l l o f h i srem arks to th e C o u r t and n o t t o c o u n s e l .MR. HOLLOWELL: to M r. R a w ls . I h a v e n 't a d d r e s s e d a n y t h in g
THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , l e t ' s p r o c e e d i n ano r d e r ly f a s h i o n , g e n tle m e n .THE REPORTER: " Q u e s t io n : Now, do youu s u a l l y h i t p e o p le who rub you th e w rong way and who a r e a c t i n g l e g a l l y , s i r ? ? "THE COURT: I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n t o t h a tq u e s t io n b e c a u s e i t p r e -s u p p o s e s a q u e s t io n w h ich th e w it n e s s c o u ld n o t p o s s i b l y answ er y e s o r no and do j u s t i c e t o h i m s e l f b e c a u s e c o u n s e l s a y s "who a r e a c t i n g l e g a l l y " .MR. HOLLOWELL: We w i l l rem ove t h a t , s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 49 2A
Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : The q u e s t io n th e n i s , do younormally s t r i k e p e o p le who rub you th e w rong way?A No, I do n o t , n o r m a lly ; b u t b e in g r a n downpractically i s n o t a n o rm al movement by a n y b o d y .Q Who r a n you down?A I s a i d a lm o s t .Q Who a lm o s t ra n you down?A T h is c o lo r e d man t h a t was d r i v i n g t h i s t r u c k .Q When you ra n b e h in d h i s t r u c k ?A No.Q, W h ile he was b a c k in g ?A N o, when I was w a lk in g i n an o r d e r l y f a s h i o nlooking a t t r a f f i c .MR. RAWLS; Now, Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s , I o b j e c tto c o u n s e l I n t e r s p e r s i n g a d d i t i o n a l q u e s t io n s w h ile the w it n e s s I s u n d e r ta k in g to an sw er th e q u e s t io n .THE COURT: M r. H o l l o w e l l , I know frommy e x p e r ie n c e a s a t r i a l la w y e r , I som etim es had th e same d i f f i c u l t y . We d e v e lo p an a n x i e t y f o r th e w it n e s s to s a y what we want him to s a y and we te n d som etim es to I n t e r r u p t him t o t r y to h e lp him s a y i t . And I d e t e c t t h a t te n d e n c y on y o u r p a r t . I f you w ould j u s t ask y o u r q u e s t io n and th e n l e t th e w it n e s s answ er w it h out I n t e r r u p t i n g , and t h e n , i f t h e r e ' s any d e f i c i e n c y in i t o r any im p r o p r ie t y a b o u t i t , make y o u r o b j e c t i o n or a s k y o u r a d d i t i o n a l q u e s t io n , and I t h in k I t w ould be h e l p f u l .MR. HOLLOWELL: I a s s u r e Y o u r H onor t h a t i t was n o t i n t e n t i o n a l .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 493A
THE COURT: I know. I had th e same e x p e r ie n c e a s a t r i a l la w y e r m y s e l f . B u t i t i s d i s r u p t i n g b e c a u se i t ' s n o t f a i r to th e w it n e s s t o p i c k a t him w h ile h e 's I n th e p r o c e s s o f t r y i n g t o answ er y o u r p r e v io u s q u e s t io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: V e ry w e l l , Y o u r H o n o r.Q Now, M r. O ' S c o t t , we w i l l c a l l y o u r a t t e n t i o nto the same m o n th , j u s t a few d a y s l a t e r , and on th e s e same grou nds a g a i n , you had th e o c c a s i o n , d id you n o t , to see a Negro woman who was lo o k in g a t you a s you came I n or went o u t o f th e P o s t O f f i c e , and you h ad th e o c c a s io n to say to h e r , "What a r e you lo o k in g a t , n i g g e r woman?"A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q And t h a t woman was th e m o th e r o f A t to r n e y C , B .King, i s n ' t t h a t t r u e ; you le a r n e d t h a t to be th e c a s e ?A I le a r n e d t h a t a f t e r w a r d s , t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s , Imove to e x c lu d e t h a t t e s t im o n y . I t ' s h i g h l y i l l e g a l , i r r e l e v a n t and Im m a te r ia l to an y o f th e i s s u e s i n t h i s c a s e . THE COURT: Y e s , I d o n 't se e t h a t t h a t i sany p r o o f o f any a n ta g o n is m to t h e N egro r a c e a s a w h o le . The same s ta te m e n t m ig h t h ave b een made to anybody e l s e . The o n ly r e a s o n I 'm a l lo w in g any o f t h i s a t a l l I s t o l e t c o u n s e l co m p le te h i s r e c o r d a s he h a s a s k e d to d o , I d o n 't t h i n k I t h a s any p r o b a t iv e v a lu e a s to an y a n ta g o n is m t o th e r a c e .MR. HOLLOWELL: W e l l , we s u b m it , Y o u r H o n o r, t h a t
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 494 a
t h i s i s t h e way t h a t we h ave c h o s e n t o e s t a b l i s h t h e r e c o r d . THE COURT: W e ll , you h ave i t i n th e r e c o r dnow.Q, M r. H o l l o w e l l : Now, M r. S c o t t , a s a m a t te r o ffact, you h ave n o t had th e o c c a s io n to d e a l iv ith any groups who were p r o t e s t i n g p e r t a i n i n g to t h e i r o r what they co n stru e t o be t h e i r c i v i l r i g h t s , o t h e r th a n p o s s i b l y the one o c c a s io n t h a t you m e n tio n e d i n c o n n e c t io n w ith Kohler p i c k e t i n g c a s e , i s n ’ t t h a t r i g h t ?A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .Q, Now, on th e n i g h t o f th e 2 1 s t , d id you a t anytime see any - e x c u s e me - do yo u know who th e D e fe n d a n ts are in t h i s c a s e ?A I h a v e a p r e t t y good i d e a , y e s .Q W e l l , j u s t to be c l e a r a b o u t i t , d id you se e -and we’ re s p e a k in g a b o u t J u l y 2 1 , 1962 - S l a t e r K in g ?A Y e s , I d i d .Q, J u s t a moment, I h a d n 't f i n i s h e d -MR. RAWLS: Now i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s , Ith in k he o u g h t t o be a llo w e d t o ta k e them one a t th e t im e , MR. HOLLOWELL: I had n o t f i n i s h e d th e q u e s t io n , s i r , i n o r d e r to I n d i c a t e w h ere .THE COURT: I d o n ’ t see why we h a v e to spendso much tim e t r y i n g to keep i t s t r a i g h t a b o u t a l lo w in g the w it n e s s to an sw er q u e s t io n s b e fo r e p r o c e e d in g w ith the o t h e r o n e . Now, c o u n s e l s a id t h i s - and a l l I
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o, 727 495A
want to do i s j u s t to e s t a b l i s h some o r d e r ly p r o c e d u r e - c o u n s e l p o in t s h i s f i n g e r a t M r. K in g and s a i d , "D id you see S l a t e r K in g t h e r e " —MR, HOLLOWELL: I d id n o t s a y —THE COURT: - - and th e w it n e s s an sw ered i tone way o r th e o t h e r . I d o n 't know how he a n sw e re d .B u t , why n o t l e t him an sw er and th e n a s k him th e o t h e r and th e n a s k him th e o t h e r o n e , and g iv e him an o p p o rt u n i t y t o an sw er th e q u e s t io n b e fo r e a s k in g a n o th e r q u e s t io n .MR. HOLLOWELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , I d o n 't t h in k th e C o u r t u n d e r s t a n d s . I had n o t f i n i s h e d th e q u e s t io n . I s a id "D id you se e S l a t e r K in g " and I was g o in g to d e s ig n a t e a t a p a r t i c u l a r p l a c e ; and he an sw ered b e fo r e I g o t th r o u g h w it h i t .THE COURT: The w it n e s s had th e Im p r e s s io nt h a t you w ere f i n i s h e d and I had th e im p r e s s io n t h a t you had f i n i s h e d .MR. HOLLOWELL: I had n o t .THE COURT: W e ll , w ith an i n c l i n a t i o n a s i fyou had f i n i s h e d th e s e n t e n c e , a p a u se a f t e r I t , I t h in k anyone w ould g e t th e im p r e s s io n t h a t y o u had f i n i s h e d y o u r q u e s t io n . B u t l e t ' s go ah ea d and t r y to do i t i n a f a s h i o n t h a t i s f a i r to th e w it n e s s , and n o t i n t e r r u p t him b u t l e t him answ er th e q u e s t io n when y o u 'v e co m p le te d i t .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : D id you on th e n i g h t o f J u l y 21,j-962 see S l a t e r K in g i n a l i n e o f w a lk in g o r m a rch in g o r
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 496 a
dem onstrating anyw here i n A lb a n y , G e o r g ia ?THE COURT: Now, j u s t a m in u te now. I st h a t th e end o f th e q u e s t io n ?MR. HOLLOWELL: T h a t 's th e end o f th e q u e s t io n .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .A The W it n e s s : D id I see him I n a l i n e o r■tr■ating i n any way? No, I d id n o t .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : How a b o u t C h a r le s Jo n e s ?A No, I d id n o t .Q How a b o u t D r . A n d erson ?A No.Q Mr. P age?A I c a n ’ t see M r. Page from h e r e .Q Do you know him ?A Y e s , I know h im . No.Q R e v . K in g ?A No.Q R e v . A b e rn a th y ?A No.Q M r s . Ruby H u r le y - s h e ’ s n o t h e r e : D id youher th a t n ig h t ?A W e ll , r i g h t o f f - h a n d I d o n ’ t t o ow w hat M rs .Hurley lo o k s l i k e ; so , I cannot answer yes or no u n t i l I saw he r ,Q W yatt Tee W alk er?A No.Q And th e same i s t r u e a s o f th e n i g h t o f th e 2 4 thof J u l y , 1962 , i s i t n o t?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 497A
A C o r r e c t ?Q, Now, t h e s e rem ark s t h a t you s a y you h e a r d , youdidn't h e a r an y o f them com ing fro m an y o f th e named D efendants, d id you?A I d id n o t s e e an y o f th e D e fe n d a n ts i n th e a r e a ;so, I assume i t d id n o t come from th em .Q Do you know th e names o f any o f th e p e r s o n s towhom th e s e rem ark s a r e a t t r i b u t e d ?A You mean who p e r s o n a l l y made th e rem arks?Q Y e s?A No, I do n o t .Q, Now, t h e s e b o t t l e s t h a t you made m e n tio n o f ,where was i t you s a i d one g la n c e d and h i t you?A O f f th e s id e o f my h e ad r i g h t h e re ( i n d i c a t i n g ) .Q Can you show me any a b r a s io n ?A N o, b u t I t was t h e r e , C o u n s e l .MR. RAWLS: Now, I f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s ,th e w it n e s s d i d n ' t s a y t h a t I t s c a r r e d up h i s h e a d .He s a id i t h i t him a g l a n c i n g l i c k .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , h e 's on c r o s s e x a m in a t i o n . I ' l l a l lo w th e q u e s t io n .Q, M r. H o l l o w e l l : Thank you -A N o, t h e r e was no c u t o r s c a r o r b r u i s e .Q, And you d o n 't know where th e y came from ?A They came fro m th e s id e w a lk s .Q Now, t h e r e a r e many d a rk s p o ts a lo n g th e s i d e walks i n th e 2 - and 300 b lo c k s o f S o u th J a c k s o n , a r e n ' t there?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n ju n c t i o n * N o. 727 498A
A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q And you c a n n o t s a y t h a t t h e r e were no w h itepeople i n t h a t croxvd* ca n you?A Y e s* I c a n .Q O ut o f some 2*000 p e o p le a t 1 0 :3 0 o r 11 o ' c l o c kin the n ig h t * where th e r e a r e d a r k s p o ts * you s a y you can say t h a t th e r e were no w h ite p e o p le i n th e g ro u p o f p e o p le in th ose two b lo c k s ?A I d id n o t se e an y w h ite p e o p le .Q A l l r i g h t * t h a t ' s d i f f e r e n t .A B u t i f I was a w h ite p e rso n * I w o u ld n 't havewanted to be down t h e r e w ith o u t p r o t e c t i o n a t n i g h t .Q T h a t w ould be t r u e g e n e r a l l y * w o u ld n 't i t ?You shake y o u r head* y e s ?A Y e s .Q As a m a t te r o f f a c t * you d o n 't ev en know w h eth eror not t h e r e may have b een p e r s o n s p a id to th row some b o t t l e s that n ig h t * do you?MR. RAVILS: Now* i f Y o u r H onor p le a s e s *t h e r e ' s b een no in t i m a t i o n i n th e e v id e n c e l i k e t h a t .THE COURT: I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n . Areyou s t a t i n g * M r. H o l lo w e ll* t h a t y o u 'r e g o in g to o f f e r e v id e n c e to th e e f f e c t t h a t p e o p le w ere p a id to do t h a t . MR. HOLLOWELL: We h a v e n 't come t o a c o n c lu s io n i n t h a t r e g a r d a s y e t * s i r .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t * I s u s t a i n th e o b j e c t i o n .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Now* a s to th e m a t t e r o f some
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 499A
person who s p a t , a l l you know i s t h a t he spat,* you d o n ’ t know t h a t he s p a t on an yb o d y] you d o n 't know w h e th e r he spat i n th e d i r e c t i o n o f a n y b o d y ; a l l you know I s t h a t you saw some s a l i v a le a v e h i s m ou th , i n d i c a t i n g t h a t he s p a t ?A He h e ld h i s h e ad up and s p i t s t r a i g h t o u t a t th egeneral d i r e c t i o n o f th e law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s .Q I n th e g e n e r a l d i r e c t i o n ?A O f c o u r s e , th e y were th e o n ly p e o p le o rin d iv id u a ls i n f r o n t o f t h i s I n d i v i d u a l t h a t s p i t .Q, W e l l , n o r m a lly , i f yo u were g o in g t o s p i t ,you d o n 't w ant t o s p i t on y o u r s e l f , you h a v e to s p i t i t o u t , is n 't t h a t r i g h t ?A N o r m a lly , i f I have t o s p i t , I h o ld my headdown and s p i t i n th e g u t t e r .Q I s e e . Y o u 'r e no e x p e r t on s p i t t i n g , a r e y o u ,sir? S i r ?A I d i d n ' t h e a r y o u r q u e s t io n .Q Y o u 'r e no e x p e r t on s p i t t i n g ?A N o, I w o u ld n 't c o n s id e r m y s e lf an e x p e r t ons p it t in g .Q What d id you mean when you s a id th e crowd wasin such a f r e n z y t h a t th e y w ould have m arched anyway?A When was t h i s ?Q On th e n i g h t o f th e 2 1 s t o f J u l y , 1962?A W e l l , th e crowd - i n r e f e r e n c e ' t o ' t h e crowd o fPeople i n th e S h i l o h C h u rch ?Q T h a t 's c o r r e c t ?A The crow d was w orked up i n t o s u c h a f r e n z y o rstate o f e x c it e m e n t t h a t th e r e was n o t h in g t h a t c o u ld
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 500A
have kep t them from m a rc h in g t h a t n ig h t ?Q I s e e . T h is i s y o u r o p in io n ?A I t i s my o p in io n a s t o th e o t h e r m ass m e e tin g sthat I had. a t t e n d e d and saw how t h e s e p e o p le w ere a r o u s e d .Q H ow ever, I b e l i e v e i t was y o u r te s t im o n y t h a tthere was a m i n i s t e r , who had sp o k en a f t e r b o th th e s t a t e ments o f th e D e fe n d a n t s , Jo n e s and S l a t e r K in g had s p o k e n ,that was y o u r te s t im o n y ?A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .Q I s t h a t r i g h t ?A I am a s su m in g he was a m i n i s t e r .Q B eg p a rd o n ? You a r e a s su m in g he was a m in is t e r ?A Y e s .Q I t was a p e rs o n ?A R i g h t .Q O f N egro e x t r a c t i o n ?A C o r r e c t .Q On th e r o s tru m o f S h i l o h C h u r c h , t h a t had sp okensubsequen t to th e s ta te m e n ts made by S l a t e r K in g and C h a r le sJones? A I b e l i e v e I t was th e same i n d i v i d u a l t h a t spokekoth b e f o re and a f t e r .Q T h a t sp oke b o th b e fo r e and a f t e r ?A T h at i s c o r r e c t .Q And i t was a f t e r t h a t p e r s o n had sp o k en t h a tgroup l e f t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I t was w h ile he s p o k e . I am t r y i n g t o r e c a l le x a ct w o rd s . I b e l i e v e i t w as, "L e a v e us le a v e now ",
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 5 0 1 A
and w ith t h a t , he l e f t and th e y w ent w ith him en m a s s e .Q T h is i s th e same p e r s o n t h a t you s a y sp oke b o thbefore t h e s e two D e fe n d a n ts and a f t e r ?A I b e l i e v e he spoke b e fo r e t o o ; t h a t ' s c o r r e c t .Q L e t me a s k you t h i s l a s t q u e s t io n , M r. O ' S c o t t :On the n i g h t o f th e 2 1 s t a g a in - ta k e t h a t b a c k - On th e night o f t h e 2 4 th o f J u l y , w here w ere you i n r e l a t i o n t o the f r o n t o f th e l i n e o f p e o p le who were w a lk in g from Shiloh C h u rch on N o rth Ja c k s o n o r S o u th Ja c k s o n i n a n o rth e rly d i r e c t i o n ?A When th e y l e f t th e c h u r c h I g o t i n my c a r anddrove a ro u n d .Q W hich way d id you d r iv e ?A Ja c k s o n and J e f f e r s o n , I came n o r t h on J e f f e r s o nu n til th e a l le y w a y b e tw een th e P o s t O f f i c e , t h i s b u i l d i n g here, betw een B ro a d and P in e , and tu r n e d r i g h t down th e alleyw ay and p a r k e d my c a r on Ja c k s o n h e a d in g s o u th and then w alked o v e r t o th e c o r n e r o r r a n o v e r .Q. L e t me se e i f I u n d e r s t a n d : J e f f e r s o n ru n s a lo n gthe w est s id e o f S h i lo h C h u r c h , r i g h t ?A T h a t 1s r i g h t .Q And you. came n o r t h on J e f f e r s o n s t r a i g h t onUP p a s t t h i s b u i l d i n g and tu r n e d i n th e a l l e y to th e righ t? A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .Q. And p r o c e e d e d o v e r to w ard s N o rth Ja c k s o n ?A I ra n - as soon as I parked my c a r , I ran south0n Jackson to meet the head o f the group.
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 502A
Q I s e e . How lo n g w ould you s u g g e s t t h a t i t to o kyou to do t h a t ?A 3 to 4 m in u t e s , maybe 5 m in u t e s .Q S a y a b o u t 5 m in u te s ?A T h a t 's r i g h t .Q Now, w here was th e h e ad o f th e l i n e when yougot to i t ?A They w ere com in g up S o u th Ja c k s o n and I c a n ' tsay e x a c t ly where th e y w e re , e x c e p t t h a t I had them i n s ig h t. They were i n th e 200 b lo c k S o u th on Ja c k s o n a tthis t im e , com ing u p .Q And th e y were s to p p e d w here by th e C h ie f?A W hich n i g h t i s t h i s now? T u esd ay?Q The 2 4 th ?A T u e s d a y , th e 2 4 th ; th e y were s to p p e d a t B r o a d .Q They were s to p p e d a t B ro a d - a l l r i g h t ?A And J a c k s o n .
0 And th e y were th e n d i r e c t e d i n t o th e s t r e e tand on o v e r t o th e j a i l , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A No, a t t h a t tim e th e R e v e re n d t h a t was le a d in gthem, th e y g o t on t h e i r k n e e s and p r a y e d , and th e y were allowed t o f i n i s h t h e i r p r a y e r .Q And th e n th e y were e s c o r t e d on a t t h a t tim e ?A N o, a t t h a t tim e th e y were a s k e d a g a in by th eChief to d i s p e r s e .Q He a s k e d them i f th e y had a p e r m it , i s t h a t whathe s a id ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t , y e s .
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n ,N o . 727 5 03A
Q And t h e n , he a s k e d them to d is p e r s e ?A He a s k e d them t o d is p e r s e s e v e r a l t i m e s .Q I s e e ; and t o l d them i f th e y d i d n ’ t he wasgoing to a r r e s t th em . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I b e l i e v e th e l a s t tim e he a s k e d them to d is p e r s ehe s a id " I 'm a s k in g you p l e a s e to a l l go h o m e ." T h ese a r e as c lo s e to h i s w ords a s I ca n rem em ber, " to go home o r I w ill" - -Q I ’ m s o r r y - d id you co m p le te y o u r s ta te m e n t?A No, I have n o t . He a s k e d them " p le a s e to gohome and d i s p e r s e " o r he s a i d t h e r e w ould h ave t o be a r r e s t s made. And I "was s t a n d in g w it h in 3 o r 4 f e e t o f th e C h i e f at the t i m e .Q And t h i s grou p s t a r t e d on a c r o s s th e s t r e e t o rwere th e y a r r e s t e d r i g h t on th e s p o t?A They were t o l d t h a t th e y were u n d e r a r r e s t .Q I s e e , r i g h t t h e r e ; th e y n e v e r h ad a c t u a l l ycrossed O g le t h o r p e a t a l l ?A They were a r r e s t e d down h e r e a t B r o a d .Q, I mean down h e r e a t B road ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t . N o, th e y had n o t .Q T h en , th e y were d i r e c t e d I n t o th e s t r e e t a f t e rbeing p u t u n d e r - a r r e s t and le d on up t o th e a l le y w a y t h a t runs b e h in d th e C i t y H a l l , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A I d id n o t s t a y w ith th e g r o u p . One o f th e o t h e rre p o rte rs t h a t I 'm a s s o c i a t e d w ith s ta y e d w ith th e g rou p and I went b a c k down to w ard s th e S o u th Ja c k s o n a r e a .Q, I s e e , you w ent b a c k down S o u th Ja c k s o n ?
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 504 A
A I n o t h e r w o rd s , I d id n o t e s c o r t th e grou p tothe C it y H a l l .Q Where was th e C h i e f a t t h a t tim e ?A I b e l i e v e th e C h i e f s t a r t e d to le a v e — s t a r t e dto le a d th e p e o p le u n d e r a r r e s t down and th e n i t was tu r n e d over to some o t h e r o f f i c e r s and I b e l i e v e he came b a c k .To answ er, to h o n e s t ly an sw er t h a t q u e s t io n , I d i d n ' t se e the C h ie f f o r a b o u t 10 o r 15 m in u te s a f t e r t h a t . I b e l i e v e he may h ave s t a r t e d - -MR. H0LL0WELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we d o n 't w ant to know w hat he b e l i e v e s .MR. RAWLS: Now, i f Y o u r H onor p l e a s e s ,I t h in k i t ' s i l l e g a l and i r r e l e v a n t and im m a t e r ia l and h a s no b e a r in g on t h i s c a s e , t h i s l i n e o f t e s t i mony a b o u t w here — w h a t 's t h a t g o t to do w it h th e i s s u e s o f t h i s c a s e ?MR. H0LL0WELL: I f i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h i s i s th e c r u x o f th e c a s e t h a t I am now o n .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .Q M r. H o l l o w e l l : Thank y o u . S o , you d i d n ' t se ethe C h ie f f o r 10 o r 15 m in u te s ?A N o, I had t o make a phone c a l l and i t wasap p ro x im a te ly 10 o r 15 m in u te s b e fo r e I saw C h i e f P r i t c h e t ta g a in . Q Now, p r i o r to t h i s tim e you had n o t h e a rd any° f th e s e rem arks to w h ich you have a s c r ib e d to c e r t a i n People?A No.
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Q T h ese v u l g a r rem ark s th a t you t e s t i f i e d a b o u t?A P r i o r to th e a r r e s t .Q P r i o r t o th e a r r e s t ?A N ot t h a t e v e n in g ; n o , I had n o t .Q N ot t h a t e v e n in g , and you s a y i t was n o t u n t i lafter th e s e f o l k had b e en a r r e s t e d and le d on o f f and th eChief th e n w ent b a c k down i n t o t h a t a r e a , t h a t i s c o r r e c t ,is I t n o t?AQAQ
B a c k down i n t o what a r e a now?The a r e a to th e s o u th o f O g le t h o r p e ?No, th e C h ie f --
A
A
You went - e x c u s e me —THE COURT: Go ah ea d and an sw er th e q u e s t io n .The W it n e s s : May I go a h ea d ?THE COURT: Y e s , an sw er th e q u e s t io n .The W it n e s s : A t t h a t tim e when I n e x t sawChief P r i t c h e t t , he was s t a n d in g i n c o n fe r e n c e w ith some o f his men and some o f th e - a c o u p le o f th e T r o o p e r s , I b e lie v e , a t th e - - I 'm t r y i n g t o g e t my d i r e c t i o n s s t r a i g h t - at the n o r t h s id e o f O g le t h o r p e a b o u t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n there, th e e a s t - w e s t c r o s s i n g on th e n o r t h s id e o f O g le thorpe; I n o t h e r w o rd s , th e y were s t a n d in g i n th e m id d le °f the s t r e e t , th e p ad d y wagon was t h e r e , and I do n o t know what c o n v e r s a t io n was t a k in g p l a c e , b u t I d id o b s e r v e him a t t h a t t im e .Q Now, l e t me see i f I u n d e r s t a n d . T h is wasafter th e a r r e s t s and th e f o l k had b een ta k e n on t o j a i l ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .
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Q, And you had gone and made y o u r c a l l , and some
10 o r 15 m in u te s - s a y 10 o r 15 m in u t e s , you s a y , you cameback th e n t o th e c o r n e r o f O g le t h o r p e -A And J a c k s o n .Q, And Ja c k s o n ?A - S o u th J a c k s o n , c o r r e c t .Q And i t was s u b s e q u e n t to t h i s t h a t th e C h i e f ,with t h i s s o r t o f a d v a n ce p a r t y so t o s p e a k , m o to r c y c le p o lic e m e n , some 2 o r 3 i n f r o n t and th e C h i e f s o r t o f i n the m id d le o f w hat m ig h t be a s p e a r h e a d , and you w a lk in g alon g b e h in d th e C h i e f ; i s t h i s c o r r e c t ?A I was w a lk in g b e h in d th e C h ie f ?Q D i d n 't you sa y t h a t you a cco m p a n ie d th e C h ie fdown th e r e ?A I a cco m p a n ie d th e law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s ,alon g w ith a c o u p le o f o t h e r r e p o r t e r s down t o t h e r e .Q I s e e , and I t was d u r in g t h i s p e r io d o f tim eth a t t h e s e a l l e g e d v u l g a r rem arks w ere made and t h e r e were t h e s e b o t t l e s , th e s o u r c e o f w h ich you do n o t know?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .MR. H0LL0WELL: One moment, Y o u r H onor —I d o n 't b e l i e v e we h a v e any f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s , Y o u rH o n o r. MR. RAWLS: Y o u 'r e e x c u s e d , M r. 0 ' S c o t t .C a l l M r. L o r i g .
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MR. M, C . LORIG9 th w it n e s s c a l l e d and sw orn I n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q M r. L o r i g , y o u ! re a l o c a l b u s in e s s man h e r e InAlbany?A Y e s s i r .Q What b u s in e s s a r e you in ?A I 'm S e c r e t a r y and T r e a s u r e r o f th e F . & S .S e r v ic e s , I n c . I t ' s a la u n d r y .Q How lo n g h ave yo u been. I n t h a t b u s in e s s ?A S in c e 19*4-6.Q Are yo u a n a t i v e A lb a n ia n , b o rn h e re ?A Y e s s i r . No s i r , n o t b o rn h e r e .Q, B u t y o u 'v e b een h e r e a l l o f y o u r l i f e ?A A l l b u t t h r e e m onths o f i t .Q M r. L o r i g , do you h a v e any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f anyin cid e n t t h a t hap p en ed on th e n ig h t o f J u l y 21 , t h i s y e a r , when you and y o u r w ife and c h i ld r e n were t r a v e l i n g th e s tre e ts o f A lb a n y ?A Y e s s i r , t h a t S a tu r d a y n i g h t , my w ife and mytwo c h i ld r e n and m y s e lf went o u t t o e a t . We came b a c k - We f i n i s h e d e a t i n g a t a p p r o x im a te ly 9 o ' c l o c k and we came back to my o f f i c e , w h ich i s on th e c o r n e r o f D a v is and Whitney. We had j u s t I n s t a l l e d a new p ie c e o f o f f i c e machinery and I t o l d my w i f e , I s a id "Come on down and l e t ' go by th e p l a c e , I want you to see t h i s p ie c e o f m a c h in e r y . So, we g o t down t h e r e some tim e a f t e r 9%00, s t a y e d I n
Hearing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , No. 727 508a
there a b o u t 5 m in u te s ; and I s a i d , " W e ll , l e t ' s go by th e post o f f i c e . " And s o , we g o t i n th e c a r and j u s t a s a matter o f c o u r s e went by th e p o s t o f f i c e l i k e I u s u a l l y go 2 or 3 t im e s a d a y , t h a t i s I u s u a l l y go down W h itn e y to Jackson and fro m Ja c k s o n I tu r n e d t o my l e f t and I 'm r i g h t in f r o n t o f th e p o s t o f f i c e . W e l l , t h i s tim e we went th e same way, and when we g o t to th e c o r n e r o f J e f f e r s o n and Jackson , I mean J e f f e r s o n and W h itn e y , I made th e rem ark to my w i f e , "T hey m ust be h a v in g a m e e tin g a t th e c h u rc h to n ig h t , l e t ' s go on b y " , b e c a u s e t h e r e w ere a number o f cars t h e r e . And xve went on by and g o t to th e i n t e r s e c t i o n of Ja c k s o n and W h itn e y and t h e r e was n o t to o many p e o p le there a t th e c o r n e r a t t h a t t im e . B u t when we made th e turn i n t o Ja c k s o n g o in g n o r t h , b etw een W h itn ey and H ig h la n d Avenue, I r e a l i z e d s o m e th in g was wrong and t h a t I had made a m istake by t u r n in g down t h a t s t r e e t . B u t by th e n c a r s had g o t t e n b e h in d me and I c o u l d n 't g e t o u t .S o , we k e p t g o in g and th e number o f p e o p le g o t bigger a s we p r o g r e s s e d n o r th on Ja c k s o n S t r e e t . And we crossed — and th e n I become - b e g a n to g e t a l i t t l e d i s turbed o v e r i t . I d i d n ' t know what was h a p p e n in g o r a n y t h in g , there was an ab n orm al number o f p e o p le down t h e r e , t h a t I bad n e v e r s e e n t h a t many g a t h e r e d on th e s t r e e t s t h e r e , a s many tim e s a s I ' v e b een by t h e r e b e fo r e i n my l i f e . S o , we c r o s s e d , a s we p r o g r e s s e d on n o r t h on Ja c k s o n a c r o s s t-ae i n t e r s e c t i o n o f H ig h la n d and Ja c k s o n and was g o in g i n t o the b lo c k betw een H ig h la n d and O g le t h o r p e , when a p p r o x im a te ly ta fr o n t o f Jo e M a lo n e 's t a x i c a b , I b e l i e v e i t w as, r i g h t
H earing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. J2J 509
in th e r e som ew here, th e t r a f f i c was s to p p e d ; and my a u t o mobile was s to p p e d , and th e a u to m o b ile s i n th e b a c k o f me and i n f r o n t o f m e, and a s we g o t t h e r e I t j u s t seemed lik e th o u s a n d s o f p e o p le aro u n d u s . And th e y r a n up to my c a r , and my w i f e , a s I s a i d , was s i t t i n g up f r o n t and I was s i t t i n g I n th e d r i v e r ' s s e a t , my two c h i ld r e n I n the b a c k ; th e y ra n up and th e y scream e d and h o l l e r e d ,"Yah, y a h " and p a t t e d on th e s id e o f my c a r ; and made g y r a tio n s and t h i n g s o f t h a t t y p e . B u t vie j u s t s a t s t i l l in th e c a r , b u t i t was s t i l l u n n e r v in g . I t e l l you f o r a moment t h e r e , I t was p r e t t y - I was t h i n k i n g p r e t t y bad th o u g h ts , I d i d n ' t know w hat t o do e x c e p t to s i t t h e r e , and t h a t ' s w hat we d i d .And th e n a f t e r a b o u t , w e l l , I ' d s a y a b o u t 30 second s, th e t r a f f i c s t a r t e d to m ovin g a l i t t l e b i t and we f i n a l l y p r o g r e s s e d and a s th e t r a f f i c moved o n , th e y moved them b a c k away fro m th e c a r ; and when we g o t to th e co rn e r , th e p o lic e m a n made u s t u r n t o th e r i g h t ; and we turned to th e r i g h t and w ent on a r o u n d . And. by t h a t tim e I had f o r g o t t e n a l l a b o u t g o in g by th e p o s t o f f i c e and I went on hom e.Q M r. R a w ls : M r. L o r i g , you s a id t h a t th epeople a p p ro a ch e d th e s id e o f y o u r c a r and je e r e d and so o n : w hat r a c e d id th o s e p e o p le b e lo n g to ?A W e l l , th e y were o f th e c o lo r e d r a c e . I d i d n ' tsee a w h ite p e r s o n . My w ife t o l d me t h a t she saw two w h ite p o licem en b u t I d i d n ' t s e e th e p o lic e m e n e v e n .MR. RAWLS: H e 's w it h y o u .
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CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR. HOLLOWELL:Q. M r. L o r i g , I s i t L - o - w - r - i - e ?A L - o - r - i - g . ( s p e l l i n g )Q, Now, what a r e y o u r i n i t i a l s , M r. L o r ig ?A M. C .Q. And t h i s t h a t you d e s c r ib e d you s a y was on th e21st o r th e 2 4 th ? I have 2 1 s t h e r e ?A T h is was S a t u r d a y . T h is was a S a tu r d a y e v e n in g .Q S a t u r d y , th e 2 1 s t?A T h a t 's r i g h t .Q, I d o n 't b e l i e v e we have an y q u e s t io n s .
TROOPER CLAUDE H IL L1 0 th w it n e s s c a l l e d and sw orn i n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q, S t a t e y o u r name t o th e C o u r t and to th eR e p o r te r , T ro o p e r H i l l ?A C la u d e H i l l .Q Are you a s s ig n e d to a c t i v e d u ty w ith th e G e o r g iaS ta te H ighw ay P a t r o l?A Y e s s i r .Q, How lo n g have you b een a tr o o p e r ?A 11 y e a r s .Q C o n tin u o u s ?AQ Y e s s i r .Were you i n A lb a n y on th e n i g h t o r a f t e r n o o n o r
H earing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 5 H A
evening o f J u l y 24 o f t h i s y e a r ?A Y e s .Q D id you p a r t i c i p a t e w it h C h i e f P r i t c h e t t andwith o t h e r law e n fo r c e m e n t o f f i c e r s i n r e l a t i o n t o a crowd which had g a t h e r e d i n t h e H arlem a r e a j u s t s o u th o f O g l e thorpe Avenue?A Y e s s i r .Q D e s c r ib e w hat you d id and what you saw , T r o o p e r ,p le a s e ?A W e ll , we were i n ,a u n i t .Q. W h a t's t h a t , i n a u n it ?A Y e s s i r , a g r o u p , a l l th e T r o o p e r s ; and so wehad l i n e d up on Ja c k s o n S t r e e t and C h i e f P r i t c h e t t was ahead o f u s ; and I was w o rk in g u n d e r th e command o f S g t . P h i l l i p s . And so he g a v e th e command to go down i n t o H arlem to h e lp c l e a r th e s t r e e t t h a t was b e in g b lo c k e d .Q Do you know th e o c c a s io n o r th e r e a s o n t h a t t h e r ewas s u ch a l a r g e g ro u p o f p e o p le a s s e m b le d i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p la c e ? Had a n y t h in g t r a n s p i r e d Im m e d ia te ly p r i o r to I t ?A W e l l , th e y were h a v in g c h u r c h down t h e r e , Iu n d e r s to o d .Q Do you know a n y t h in g a b o u t anybody m a rc h in gon th e s id e w a lk s j u s t p r e v io u s t o t h a t ?A Y e s s i r , t h e r e was a g rou p p r i o r t o t h a t , hadm arched up Ja c k s o n S t r e e t , and were a r r e s t e d by C h ie f P r i t c h e t t .Q What tim e o f e v e n in g o r n i g h t was i t t h a t youwent down w it h th e C h ie f and o t h e r o f f i c e r s to t h a t
H earing on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n , N o. 727 512A
p a r t i c u l a r a r e a ?A I w ould s a y betw een 1 0 :3 0 and 11 o ' c l o c k .Q. Do you h a v e i n y o u r m ind any e s t im a t e o f th enumber o f p e o p le ., th e p r o b a b le o r y o u r e s t im a t e o f th e number o f p e o p le t h a t was i n t h a t crow d t h a t had a s se m b le d there? A W e ll , I 'm n o t much a t e s t im a t in g cro w d s, b u t Iwould s a y b etw een 1500 and 2 ,0 0 0 .Q Y o u r e s t im a t e i s betw een 1500 and 2000?A Y e s s i r .Q, What was th e c o n d u c t o r a t t i t u d e o f t h a t crow d,Trooper? What d id th e y do or* w hat d id th e y s a y , t h a t you heard, t h a t a t t r a c t e d y o u r a t t e n t i o n ?A W e ll , a f t e r we g o t on down i n t o H a rle m , o fco u rse , and g o t o f f o f th e s t r e e t s , I mean th e s id e w a lk , got up on th e s id e w a lk ; th e y w ere c u s s in g and r a i s i n g s a n d .Q, Do you r e c a l l th e s p e c i f i c la n g u a g e t h e y wereusin g o r t h a t you h e a r d u s e d w h ich you r e g a r d e d a s b e in g p ro fan e o r c u r s e w ords?A Y e s s i r , I remember one o c c a s io n t h e r e , th e ys a id , som ebody s a id " h e r e comes P r i t c h e t t ' s a rm y ", s a id "The w h ite m o t h e r - fu c k e r s t h i n k t h e y 'r e a s good a s we a r e . "Q And t h a t ' s what you h e a r d s t a t e d ?A Y e s .Q From some s o u r c e I n th e crowd?A Y e s s i r .Q T h a t you were t r y i n g to d i s p e r s e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?A Y e s s i r .
H earin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o, 727 513A
Q, D id you se e o r o b s e r v e a n y t h in g e l s e i n r e l a t i o nto th e a c t i v i t i e s o f th e crowd?A W e ll , I saw some b o t t l e s b e in g throw n and a l s or o c k s . Q. D id you s e e anybody s p i t a t anybody?A Y e s s i r .MR. HOLLOWELL: L e t ' s d o n 't le a d h im .THE COURT: B o t t l e s and r o c k s - r i g h t t h e r e -by whom and a t whom? B o t t l e s and r o c k s b e in g throw n by whom and a t whom?A The W it n e s s : T h ere was b o t t l e s and r o c k s b e in gth row n a t u s .BY THE COURT:Q, B e in g th row n by whom a t whom? Who were th e yb ein g throw n by?A O ut o f th e crowd on th e s id e w a lk .Q On th e s id e w a lk ?A Y e s s i r .Q Who c o n s t i t u t e d th e crow d , what k in d o f crowdwas i t ?A I t was some c o lo r e d p e o p le .Q And b e in g throw n a t whom?A At th e o f f i c e r s ,Q Were you among th e o f f i c e r s ?A Y es s i r .Q A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .BY MR. RAWLS:Q, D id you g e t s t r u c k ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n No. 727 514A
A Y e s s i r .Q What d id you g e t s t r u c k w ith ?A W ith a r o c k .Q Have you g o t i t w ith you?A Y e s s i r .Q Where i s i t ?A (W itn e s s p r o d u c in g r o c k e t from h i s p o c k e tand h a n d in g to c o u n s e l) . . .Q Where d id you g e t s t r u c k , what p a r t o f y o u r bodyor y o u r h ead was s t r u c k by th e r o c k ?A R ig h t h e r e ( p o i n t i n g ) . . .Q Do you h ave a s c a r I n d i c a t i n g w here th e r o c kh it you? A Y e s s i r . THE COURT: L e t him s t a t e f o r th e r e c o r dnow what p a r t o f h i s h ead was s t r u c k ?A The W itn e s s : My l e f t ja w .Q M r. R a w ls : What was th e e x t e n t o f th ei n j u r i e s t h a t you r e c e iv e d from b e in g s t r u c k by th e ro c k ?A B r u is e d and b ro k e two t e e t h .Q Two jaw t e e t h ?A No s i r , t h i s one h e r e and c h ip p e d t h i s one h e r eon th e f r o n t ( p o in t i n g to t e e t h ) ; b ro k e one jaw t o o t h and ch ip p ed one o f th e f r o n t o n e s .Q D id you see any o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s on th e p a r t o fanybody t h a t was i n th e grou p a s se m b le d th e r e ?A I d i d n ' t u n d e r s ta n d y o u r q u e s t io n .
H earin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 515A
Q I j u s t s a y , d id you se e a n y t h in g e l s e on th ep a rt o f th e g ro u p t h a t you w ere down t h e r e u n d e r t a k in g to d is p e r s e t h a t i n d i c a t e d t h e i r a t t i t u d e tow ard th e o f f i c e r s th a t were p r e s e n t ?A Y e s s i r , th e y k e p t h o l l e r i n g a t us o b sce n ela n g u a g e , and on a c o u p le o f o c c a s io n s t h e r e I saw them s p it a t u s .Q A c o u p le o f w hat?A They s p i t a t u s on a c o u p le o f o c c a s i o n s .Q They d id ?A Y e s s i r .Q Were you i n s t r u c t e d by th e C h i e f to s t a y i nthe l i n e o f p r o g r e s s t h a t you w ent o u t t h e r e on?A Y e s s i r , we were i n s t r u c t e d to s t a y i n th eu n it and n o t to -MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , t h a t ' sl e a d i n g .MR. RAWLS: H e 's w it h y o u .MR. HOLLOWELL: T h at was le a d i n g b u t j u s t f o r g e ti t . CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR. HOLLOWELL:Q M r. H i l l , you d id n o t go b a c k o r you were n o tord ered down i n t o th e a r e a s o u th o f O g le t h o r p e and S o u th Ja c k s o n u n t i l a f t e r th e grou p t h a t you i n d i c a t e d were m arching had a lr e a d y been a r r e s t e d and ta k e n on t o j a i l , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 516A
A N o, I was n o t o r d e r e d down t h e r e u n t i l - whatI mean, down to th e t h e a t e r s o u th o f th e b u s s t a t i o n - u n t i l a f t e r th e crow d had b een ta k e n t o th e j a i l .Q, You d o n 't know who made any o f t h e s e o b sce n erem a rk s, to w h ich you r e f e r r e d i n y o u r t e s t im o n y , do you?A No.Q You d i d n ' t se e any o f th e D e fe n d a n ts I n t h a ta r e a , d id you? D id you e v e r se e any o f t h e s e p e o p le h e r e in s id e th e r a i l , e x c lu d in g t h e s e a t th e t a b l e h e r e , th e D e fe n d a n ts h e r e J o n e s , P a g e , K in g , A n d e rs o n , K in g , A b e rn a th y ?A No, I d i d n ' t r e c o g n iz e any o f th em .Q Do you know a man by th e name o f R e v . W yatt TeeW alker?A N o.Q Do you know a la d y by th e name o f M rs . RubyH u rle y?A No.Q How f a r were th e p e o p le , how f a r were th e p e o p lewho w ere i n th e s id e w a lk a r e a from w here th e o f f i c e r s were?A W e l l , we were i n s i n g l e f i l e s i n th e m id d le o fthe s t r e e t and th e y were on th e s id e w a lk .Q How much d is t a n c e was betw een th e two l i n e s o fo f f i c e r s ?A A bout 15 o r 20 f e e t , I im a g in e .Q, Would you s a y maybe one l i n e was a b o u t sa ya lo n g where you a r e and th e n h e r e 's th e c e n t e r o f th e s t r e e t betw een you and m y s e l f , and th e n th e o t h e r l i n e was o v e r h e r e ( i n d i c a t i n g ) ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 517A
A T h a t 's a b o u t r i g h t .Q I s t h a t c o r r e c t , a b o u t 15 o r 20 f e e t ?A (No an sw er) . . .Q W hich means t h a t th e r e was maybe 4 o r 5 f e e tbetween th e l i n e o f o f f i c e r s and th e c u r b , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .Q And t h e n , th e p e o p le w ere up on th e s id e w a lk ?A T h a t ' s r i g h t .Q D id th e p e o p le d is p e r s e ?A A f t e r we went down, y e s , th e y d e p a r te d and g o ton th e s id e w a lk .Q, I n o t h e r w o rd s , when you came down t h a t s t r e e tand t h e s e l i n e s were made t o th e r i g h t and l e f t o f th e c e n te r o f th e s t r e e t , l e a v i n g a gap i n th e r e o f 15 o r 20 f e e t , t h a t gap was g e n e r a l l y c l e a r ?A I t w a s, y e s .Q Now, do you h ave a m e d ic a l r e p o r t on y o u r i n j u r yth e re to w h ich you t e s t i f i e d ? A N o, n o t w ith me.Q You d o n ' t have one?A N o.Q Who was y o u r d o c to r ?A I went to th e h o s p i t a l o u t h e r e . T h e r e 's anin te r n e t h a t c h e c k e d me and x - r a y e d me, fo u n d o u t t h e r ewas no f r a c t u r e d b o n es and s a i d my t o o t h was b r o k e n . And so, i went to D r . Jo e L i s t e r , D e n t i s t i n T i f t o n .Q An in t e r n e c h e c k e d you o u t a t P h o eb e-P u tn amM em orial H o s p i t a l o u t h e re ?
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 518a
A T h a t ! s r i g h t .Q And no b o n es were b ro k e n ?A No.Q And so you went to th e d e n t i s t . D o c to r whom?A D r . Jo e L i s t e r .Q L i s t e r ?A L i s t e r a t T i f t o n .Q Can you s p e l l I t f o r me?A L - i - s - t - e - r , L i s t e r ( s p e l l i n g ) .Q, Now, how many b o t t l e s d id yo u a c t u a l l y see o rhow many r o c k s d id you s e e ?A W e l l , I d o n 't know o f f hand b u t th e y were j u s tpopping a l l aro u n d me.Q, They were p o p p in g a l l a r o u n d . Now, p e o p lewere c lc s e enough to you t h a t i f th e y had r e a l l y b een d raw in g a bead on you and th e r e w ere en ou gh o f f i c e r s o u t t h e r e , t h a t they c o u ld h ave h i t many o f them ; i s n ' t t h a t t r u e , a s c l o s e as th e y w ere?A Y e s .Q A c t u a l l y , m ost o f th e b o t t l e s and t h e s e o th e ritem s a s you s a y w ere f a l l i n g , th e y were f a l l i n g i n th e s t r e e t and b o u n c in g aro u n d th e f e e t o f th e o f f i c e r s , i s n ' t th a t t r u e ?A By t h e i r h e a d s t o o .Q S i r ?A They were■ f l y i n g by y o u r h e ad t o o .Q You mean o v e r th e head?A Y e s .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 519 A
QA
Qy o u r s e l f ?Awas h i t .
O v e r th e head?B etw een th e T ro o p e rs and th e o f f i c e r s .Do you know o f an ybod y e l s e t h a t was h i t b e s id e s
I b e l i e v e a C a p t a in o f th e P o l i c e D ep artm en t
Q Do you know who he was?A I c a n ' t c a l l h i s name o f f - h a n d r i g h t now, b u th e 's a C a p t a in o f th e P o l i c e D e p a r tm e n t.Q C le g g , C a p t a in C l e g g , was i t ?A I b e l i e v e t h a t ' s r i g h t , y e s .Q Was anybody e l s e - you and he a r e th e o n ly onesto y o u r kn ow led ge t h a t were h i t , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ?A W e ll , th e o n ly o n es t h a t I knew . I mean I d i d n ' tsee anybody e l s e h i t .Q And you d o n ’ t h ave any k n ow led ge o f anybody e l s eb e in g h i t ?A Somebody s a id th e r e was a news r e p o r t e r t h a t wash i t . Q Now, t h i s l i n e o f o f f i c e r s r a n f o r a b lo c k anda h a l f , a b o u t , d i d n ' t i t ?A I w ould s a y a b o u t a b l o c k , y e s .Q And a c t u a l l y , you d o n 't know where e x a c t l y th erock came from w h ich h i t y o u ; you know i t came from one s id e o r a n o th e r — w h ich s id e were you on?A I was f a c i n g s o u t h .Q You were f a c i n g s o u th ?A Y e s .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o. 727 520A
Q A bout w here on Ja c k s o n S t r e e t ?A A bout th e r e i n f r o n t o f th e t h e a t e r ., I b e l i e v ei t w a s.Q, Somewhere i n th e v i c i n i t y o f th e t h e a t e r ?A Y e s .Q B u t you d o n 't know e x a c t l y w here th e r o c k camefro m , e x c e p t i t had to come from y o u r r i g h t f r o n t ?A I t came from th e l e f t .Q Y o u r l e f t ?A You s e e , I was f a c i n g s o u t h .Q Y e s , i t came from th e l e f t s id e ?A Y e s .Q Now, o v e r on t h a t s id e th e r e i s a f i l l i n g s t a t i o nand a t a x i c a b s t a t i o n and a wash r a c k and a gap where you can go a l l th e way b a c k I n t o th e a l l e y , i s n ' t t h a t tr u e ?A I d o n 't remember a s e r v i c e s t a t i o n b e in g t h e r e .I b e l i e v e t h e r e ' s an a l l e y , a l i t t l e a l l e y .Q An a lle y w a y t h a t g o e s on b a c k o v e r i n th e r e ?A Y e s .Q S o , you d o n 't know w h eth er th e r o c k was eventhrown by a c o lo r e d p e r s o n o r a w h ite p e r s o n , do y o u , as a m a t te r o f f a c t ?A As f a r a s k n o w le d g e , I d o n 't know b u t I d i d n ' tsee an y w h ite p e o p le down t h e r e .Q You d i d n ' t se e a n y j you d o n 't say t h e r e weren ot an y th e r e ?A W e ll , I d i d n ' t se e a n y .Q, B u t I s a y , you d o n 't s a y an y were n o t th e r e ?A I mean I d i d n ' t see a n y .
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o, 727 521A
Q. T h a t 's th e o n ly r o c k t h a t you s a y t h a t h i t youand t h a t p o in t o f th e im p a c t b e in g y o u r l e f t c h e e k o r ja w ; t h i s was th e o n ly r o c k t h a t h i t y o u , w a s n 't i t ?A T h is i s th e o n ly o n e .Q, And you r e a c h e d down and p ic k e d i t up and p u ti t i n y o u r p o c k e t?A T h a t 's r i g h t .Q A t t h a t tim e ?A I mean I s t a g g e r e d aro u n d a l i t t l e b i t and i twas a t my f e e t .Q, You s t a g g e r e d aro u n d a b i t ?A J u s t a s e c o n d .0 I s e e , and you d o n 't know w h eth er th e r o c k t h a tyou p ic k e d up th e n a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t was th e r o c k t h a t h i t you o r n o t , do you?A Y e s .Q, How do you know t h a t ?A B e c a u s e i t f e l l down my s id e and I f e l t i t .Q I t f e l l down on th e s id e ?A Y e s .Q, W e r e n 't t h e r e o t h e r r o c k s I n th e s t r e e t ?A I d i d n ' t see an y r i g h t i n th e l o c a t i o n I wasI n . Q You d i d n ' t se e any o t h e r s i n t h a t l o c a t i o n ?A R ig h t where I was a t .Q R ig h t w here you w ere?A No.
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n No. 727 522A
Q Was t h i s l i n e a s t a t i o n a r y l i n e , th e l i n e o fo f f i c e r s ?A Y e s .Q The one you w ere i n , o r was i t a m oving l i n e ?A W e ll , we w ould move and th e n w e ! d s t o p , s lo wdown, and th e tim e I was h i t I was s to p p e dQ You mean th e l i n e w ould move i n w h ich d i r e c t i o n ?A S o u th .Q From n o r th t o s o u th ?A Y e s .Q In a colum n o r f i l e so to sp ea k ?A I n a colum n o f 2 ' s .Q I n a colum n o f 2 ’ s . W e l l , e x p l a i n w hat youmean? Were th e r e f o u r o f f i c e r s to a g r o u p , t h a t i s 2 i n th e l i n e on one s id e and 2 i n th e l i n e on th e o th e r ?A Colum ns o f 2 ' s , we were l i n e d u p .Q An open co lu m n , I s e e , you mean an open colum no f 2 's ?A Y e s .Q The seco n d o n e , e a c h one b e in g on o p p o s it es id e s o f th e s t r e e t r a t h e r th a n —A About 15 o r 20 f o o t a p a r t .Q Now, t h i s s p i t t i n g , a s you s a y , t h i s wasa c t u a l l y s p i t t i n g i n th e d i r e c t i o n , t h a t i s to w ard th es t r e e t ? Nobody s p i t on y o u , d id th e y ?A N o, j u s t i n o u r d i r e c t i o n .0 You d i d n ' t se e an ybod y s p i t on anybody —
H e a rin g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o . 727 523A
THE COURT: J u s t a m in u te : You s a i d w h a t,you s a id i n y o u r d i r e c t i o n ?The W it n e s s : Y e s s i r .THE COURT: L e t him a n s w e r .MR. HOLLOWELL: He d id a n s w e r .THE COURT: B u t you were t a l k i n g a t th e sametim e he w a s. I d o n 't know how i n th e w o rld th e r e p o r t e r ca n g e t you b o t h .MR. HOLLOWELL: May we a s k th e r e p o r t e r to re a di t ? THE REPORTER: T h a t 1s when th e y want me to re a dI t , when t h e y 'r e b o th t a l k i n g a t th e same t im e , and I c a n ' t g e t two a t one t im e ,THE COURT: T h a t ’ s what I know . He c a n ' tg e t i t when y o u 'r e t a l k i n g a t th e same t im e .MR. HOLLOWELL: I a s k him t o re a d w hat he h a s .THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .THE REPORTER: (R e a d in g n o t e s ) ; " Q u e s t io n :Now, t h i s s p i t t i n g , a s you s a y , t h i s was a c t u a l l y s p i t t i n g i n th e d i r e c t i o n , t h a t i s to w ard th e s t r e e t ? Nobody s p i t on y o u , d id th e y ? A nsw er: No, j u s t i n o u r d i r e c t i o n . Q u e s t io n : You d i d n ' t see anybodys p i t on a n y b o d y ? "B u t I c a n n o t ta k e two a t th e same t im e , Ju d g e .THE COURT: I r e a l i z e th e d i f f i c u l t y y o u 'r eh a v in g when c o u n s e l and th e w it n e s s a r e t a l k i n g a t th e sane t im e , and t h a t ' s what I ’ m t r y i n g to a v o id . A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .
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MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't b e l i e v e we have an y more q u e s t i o n s . REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q T r o o p e r , w ould you l e t me h a v e t h a t r o c k t h a tyou h a v e i n y o u r h a n d , p l e a s e , s i r ?A (W itn e s s h a n d in g r o c k to c o u n s e l)MR. RAWLS: M r. C l e r k , w i l l you f i g u r e o u thow you ca n i d e n t i f y t h a t ?THE CLERK: T h a t 's P - 9 .R E C E SS: 1 1 :1 0 AM to 1 1 :2 5 AM 8 -2 -6 2
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
MR. E , H. H EID T, J R .1 1 th w it n e s s c a l l e d and sworn i n b e h a l f o f P l a i n t i f f s , t e s t i f i e dDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q What i s y o u r b u s in e s s c a l l i n g , M r. H e id t?A I 'm em ployed by th e U . S . P o s t O f f i c e .Q What?A The U . S , p o s t o f f i c e .Q I n what c a p a c i t y do you work w ith th e p o s t o f f i c e ?A I 'm th e v e h i c l e m a in te n a n c e c l e r k .Q How lo n g h a v e you been em ployed by th e U . S .P o st O f f i c e D e p a rtm e n t?A S in c e O c to b e r o f 1945 .
H e a r in g on M o tio n F o r P r e l im in a r y I n j u n c t i o n N o . J2J 525A
Q, C o n t in u o u s ly h e r e a t th e A lb a n y o f f i c e ?A Y e s .Q, M r. H e i d t , do you r e c a l l an o c c a s io n i n Decem bero f ' 6 l , when D r . M a r t in L u th e r K in g was a r r e s t e d by th e P o l i c e D ep a rtm en t i n c o n n e c t io n w ith a m arch t h a t was c o n d u c te d on th e s t r e e t s o f A lb a n y on t h a t day?A I d o , s i r .Q D id th e p r o g r e s s o f t h a t m arch i n t e r f e r e w ithy o u r t r a v e l o r t r a f f i c on any o f th e s t r e e t s o r h ig h w a y s ; i f s o , s t a t e th e d e t a i l s , p l e a s e ?A I was g o in g to th e B . F . G o o d r ic h S t o r e i n th e100 b lo c k o f O g le t h o r p e A ven u e. I was t r a v e l i n g e a s t i n th e 300 b lo c k o f O g le t h o r p e . J u s t b e fo r e I r e a c h e d th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f Ja c k s o n S t r e e t , a l i n e o f m a rch e rs on th e w est s id e o f Ja c k s o n S t r e e t g o in g n o r th e n t e r e d th e i n t e r s e c t i o n , s to p p e d th e c a r s ah ea d o f me and f o r c e d me to s to p a t t h a t i n t e r s e c t i o n .0 And hoxv lo n g were you d e t a in e d th e r e w h ile th em a rch e rs were c r o s s in g t h a t i n t e r s e c t i o n ?A I w ould s a y a minimum o f 10 m in u t e s .Q Now, d id you o b s e r v e a n y t h in g a b o u t th e - i st h a t i n t e r s e c t i o n g u a rd e d by any e l e c t r i c a l s i g n a l l i n g d e v ic e ?A I t i s , th e r e g u la r a u to m a tic s i g n a l l i g h t .Q, D id th e m a rch e rs o b s e r v e th e s ig n s and s ig n sa s i n d i c a t e d by th e d e v ic e o r n o t?A They were i n t o th e s t r e e t and a p p a r e n t ly werep a y in g no a t t e n t i o n to th e s i g n a l d e v i c e .
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MR. RAWLS: H e 's w ith y o u .CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR. HOLLOWELL:
Q, Now M r. H e i d t , d id you s e e th e l i n e o f m archwhen i t f i r s t a r r i v e d a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f S o u th Ja c k s o n and O g le th o r p e ?A Would you r e p e a t t h a t p le a s e ?MR. HOLLOWELL: Would you re a d i t , s i r ?THE REPORTER: ( R e a d in g ) : " Q u e s t io n : Mr.H e i d t , d id you se e th e l i n e o f m arch when i t f i r s ta r r i v e d a t th e i n t e r s e c t i o n o f S o u th Ja c k s o n andO g le t h o r p e ? "A The W it n e s s : I was t r a v e l i n g e a s t on O g le t h o r p e , th e r e were s e v e r a l c a r s i n f r o n t o f me, j u s t b e h in d , j u s t w est o f what a t one tim e was th e g a r a g e o f th e T r a ilw a y s Bus S t a t i o n , I b e g a n to s e e p e o p le com ing from b e h in d th e bus s t a t i o n .0 D id you se e th e C h i e f o f P o l i c e ?A A f t e r th e l i n e o f m arch had a lr e a d y e n t e r e di n t o and was p r a c t i c a l l y a c r o s s th e s t r e e t .Q T h a t 's w here you saw him ?A T h a t 's w here I saw th e C h i e f , y e s .Q T h a t 's xvhere you saw th e C h ie f ?A Y e s .Q You d o n 't know w h e th e r th e C h i e f had s to p p e dthem p r i o r to t h a t tim e o r n o t , do you?A Y e s , I know.Q You know?
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A
QAre a ch e d th e Q
Y e s .How do you know?B e c a u s e he h ad n o t r e a c h e d them b e fo r e th e y n o r th s id e o f O g le t h o r p e .He had n o t?A N o.
0 You d o n 't know what th e l i g h t was when th e ye n te r e d th e i n t e r s e c t i o n , do you ?A N ot a t th e tim e o f th e e n t r a n c e , n o .0 A l l you know i s t h a t th e y were s to p p e d , u n d e ry o u r t e s t im o n y , b e fo r e th e h ead o f th e l i n e r e a c h e d th e n o r th s i d e , J u s t b e fo r e th e y r e a c h e d th e n o r th s i d e , th e head o f th e l i n e ; and t h a t was when you saw C h i e f P r i t c h e t t sto p p e d them ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?A As I r e c a l l , th e y were n o t s to p p e d u n t i lth e y had - u n t i l th e h ead o f th e l i n e had d e f i n i t e l y re a c h e d th e n o r th s id e o f O g le th o rp e ,* and d u r in g t h a t tim e th e l i g h t w ould h a v e had a ch a n ce to have s to p p e d them , any b e h in d th em .MR. HOLLOWELL: May i t p le a s e th e C o u r t , we w ould a s k t h a t t h a t be s t r i c k e n , d u r in g th e tim e th e l i g h t w ould h a v e had a ch a n ce t o h ave s to p p e d th em . We s a y t h a t i s n o t r e s p o n s iv e and i t i s a c o n c lu s io n .THE COURT: I t i s s t r i c k e n .MR. HOLLOWELL: I d o n 't b e l i e v e I have any f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s , M r. H e i d t ,
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REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:Q Were you o p e r a t in g a v e h i c l e b e lo n g in g to th eU n ite d S t a t e s P o s t O f f i c e D ep a rtm en t a t th e tim e ?A I w a s .Q You may come down.