Eaton v. James Walker Memorial Hospital Board of Managers Deposition of Doctors - Volume II

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA WILMINGTON DIVISION
Civil Action No. 932

HUBERT A. EATON, et al,
Plaintiffs,

v.
THE BOARD OF MANAGERS OF JAMES WALKER MEMORIAL HOSPITAL, a Body Corporate, et al,

Defendants.

DEPOSITIONS OF DOCTORS:
Singletary VanVelsor Warshauer Wells Williams Johnson Mr. Martin Doctor Weinel andTidier

VOLUME II of two volumes

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Wiida y. Jdauer



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I N D E X

WITNESSES: Direct Cross Redirect Recross
Dr. Henry P. Singletary 170 182 156 199
Dr. Harry Van Velsor 201 207 208

Dr. Samuel E. Warshauer 209 223 223 mm mm mm

Dr. Edwin J. Wells 227 239 241 —

Dr. R. Bertram Williams Jr. 248 264 —

Dr. Robert W. Williams 265 280 281 —

Dr. Hooper D. Johnson 285 —

Mr. Robert R. Martin 303 —

Dr. William H. Weinel Jr . 315 326 327
Dr. James Tidier 330



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p R . H E N R Y  P. S I N G L E T A R Y , having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Will you state your full name and medical 

specialty.
A Henry Pate Singletary, pathologist.
Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital? 
A I am.
Q How long have you been on the staff?
A Five and a half years.
Q Are you on the staff at Community Hospital?
A I am.
Q How long have you been on the staff?
A Six months.
Q Are you the chief pathologist at both of

these hospitals?
A Yes.
Q Who was the chief pathologist prior to you?
A Dr. George Lumb,
Q When did he cease as chief pathologist at 

these hospitals?
A December 30, 1964,



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Q Did he leave the community at that time?
A Yes.
Q Where has he gone?
A He obtained a position with Warner-Lambert 

Laboratories. He is now in Morris Plains, New Jersey, 
and will go shortly to Toronto where he will be the 
vice-president in charge of a phase of research.

Q Did you work with him when he was chief 
pathologist?

A I did.
Q Were you his assistant in any sense?
A I was his associate, assistant, yes.
Q Are you also the secretary of the medical 

staff at James Walker?
A Yes, I am.
Q What are your duties as secretary?
A I manage to write down the notes of the meetings 

when they occur, both the executive meetings and the 
general staff medical meetings, and also to write 
correspondence as directed by the membership.

Q Do these notes become the minutes of the 
meetings?

A 
Q
A

TOiey do.
When are these meetings held?
The general staff meeting has four assemblies



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a year, and they would be in January, March, and bo 

forth - quarterly. The executive staff meets once a 
month.

Q Was a meeting held In December of 1964?
A I believe it was. I don't have the notebook.
Q Let me call your attention to Dr. Eaton's 

application for staff membership at the hospital. Was 
Dr. Eaton's application presented to the staff meeting 
in December?

A I don't have the notebook, but that sounds 
about right.

Q Was his application discussed at that time?
A Yes. Just a moment. I do have seme notes, 

but I was not instructed to bring my record notebooks 
and so I didn't. Yes, apparently it was discussed at 
about that time.

Q The ballot was not, however, taken at the 
meeting?

A No, Ihe ballots are by convention sent out 
by mail to the individuals and then returned after they 
are checked. Unreturned ballots count as a positive 
vote.

Q Was there 3ome discussion at this time of the 
legal action which Dr. Eaton might take if he were 
denied staff membership?



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A Yes.
Q Was there a discussion of the order of the 

United States Court of approximately August 1964 concerning 
Dr. Eaton’s application?

A There were many discussions concerning his 
case and related cases, both inside the meeting itself 
and outside the meeting.

Q In the hallway?
A That * s right.
q  Are the minutes of that meeting transcribed?
A Yes.
Q Do the minutes reflect the nature of these 

discussions?
A Well, really, I wish if you were going to questio 

me about the minutes that you had aslced me to bring the 
minutes with me. Now, I'm sure if all of this was dis­
cussed, a notation is made, but I don't remember 
everything I wrote down. I have done a lot of other 
things too.

Q To the best of your recollection did you at 
that time set forth in the minutes the nature of the 
discussion?

A No, I doubt if I did. I think that I Just 
stated that his name came up and a short discussion was
held



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Q Did you discuss Dr. Eaton's application with
other members of the staff?

A Not during the meeting, no.
Q In the hallway?
A Well, I was part of the discussions; I didn't 

lead them.
Q Could you give us the names of some of the 

physicians with whom you discussed the matter?
A I really don't remember,
Q Are you aware that the credentials committee 

of the hospital acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application?
A Yes. Oftey initially decided to await the 

outcome of the legal action that Dr. Eaton was involved 
with; and then when the legal action was stopped, 
apparently —  I don't believe he was acquitted; the 
Jury was Just dismissed for lack of insufficient

"To CLsf^l_fp ifiL •evidence* At that time then the credentials committee 
ruled that he was eligible for vote.

Q I believe you said for lack of "Insufficient" 
evidence. Don't you mean for lack of sufficient 
evidence?

A All right, you can take it either side and 
say it either way you want.

Q You don't regard what the Judge did at that
time as an acquittal?



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A No, I don't.
Q Were you involved in that lawsuit?
A Indirectly.
Q How were you involved?
A I assisted in an autopsy done by Dr. George 

Lumb on a woman supposedly who had an abortion.
Q And that constituted the evidence against Dr.

Eaton?
A As far as the lawsuit was concerned, yes.
Q Did you vote on Dr. Eaton's application in

December and again in February?
A Yes. Well, my vote was counted one way or

the other each time.
Q Were you prepared to testify in court against

Dr. Eaton?
A I would prefer not to.
q  Were you prepared to testify against Dr.

Eaton at this criminal trial?
A I was not prepared to testify against anyone,

but purely what I found during the autopsy.
Q And this evidence would have been for the

prosecution, would it not ?
A This evidence would have been supporting the 

fact that the woman in my opinion was aborted. It was at 
least a problem of whether the woman was aborted and who



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and that's where the case fell down.
Q Are you aware that two noted pathologists from 

out of the city had come to Wilmington in order to 
testify for Dr. Eaton?

A I was aware of that. There were also other 
pathologists who supported our own testimony or opinions 
whose reputation I feel is much greater and whose 
ability is more recognized.

q  Well, the Judge chose not to even hear those 
pathologists brought by Dr. Eaton; isn't that correct?

A That is true.
Q You don't regard this as exoneration?
A No. I regard this, and actually the Judge 

also made a statement at the time--
Q Let's not have both.

MR. HOGUE: Just a moment. You are asking
him about this, and I think the record should 
be full on this. You had Dr. Eaton testify 
yesterday to what not only was said but what 
was going to be said. Now, there is a time 
to object. And you have asked the question, 
and the witness wants to answer it, and I 
think he should be allowed to answer it.

MR, MELESNERt Let the record reflect,
Mr. Hogue, that I don't in any way indicate that



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you cannot ask him that question. I merely 
did not ask him that question and I don't wish 
him to answer it at this time.

MR. HOOUEs Well, of course, you refused 
to let him explain his answer.

MR. MELESNER: I will rely on the transcript
of that proceeding for any statement made by 
the judge. (To the witness) Of course, Mr.
Hogue can ask you what your recollection is.

THE WITNESS: Do you have the transcript
of the judge's terminal statement?

MR. MELESNER: I'm asking the questions.
Doctor, thank you.

TOE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. MELESNER:

Q How did you vote on this December ballot?
A It was really a secret ballot and I think it 

should remain so.
Q How did you vote on the February ballot?
A In the first ballot, the one in which it 

was not certain whether we should have a secret ballot 
or not, I tore the ballot upj and, therefore, that would 
have counted as an affirmative vote for Dr. Eaton.
The second ballot was a secret ballot.

Q Are you telling me that the first ballot was not



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a secret ballot?
A All the ballots by convention have always been 

secret; however, during the first ballot it was decided 
by the president of the staff, due to the implications 
of this particular case, that people should sign their 
names and, therefore, it was a departure from convention 
but the constitution and by-laws had nothing to say 
about this even though it was a convention that this 
was a requirement. Subsequently an additional by-law 
was made saying that all ballots should be secret,

Q Would you, then, have a list of how many 
people voted on the first ballot?

A No, I don't have a list,
Q Who counted the first ballot?
A I did.
Q Did you note how many people had voted?
A I counted the affirmative votes and the

negative votes.
q  No. Do you know how each member of the staff 

had cast his ballot?
A Many people didn't sign their names.
Q When you voted in February, how did you

vote?
A Was this the first or the second?
Q The first was in December, I believe.



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A Okay. The second was a secret ballot 
according to the regulations and by-laws of the hospital.

Q I'm asking you now, directly, how you voted 
on the second ballot.

A Do we have a Judge here?
ME. HOGUE< His answer is that he voted 

by secret ballot. I thought it was very 
clear.

BY MR. MELESNERs
Q Do you refuse to answer that question?

MR. HOGUEt He has answered he voted by 
secret ballot.

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Do you refuse to tell me how you voted?
A It was a secret ballot. I'm not saying I

voted negatively or positively.
Q In a secret ballot procedure, Doctor, isn't 

it possible, then, that a physican could vote for or 
against a man for any reason?

A I would presume that if he voted, he voted 
for a reason.

Q Well, if he doesn't have to tell the way he 
voted, he certainly doesn't have to tell the reason why 
he votedj isn't that correct?

A That is correct.



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Q And so the physicians on the staff at James 
Walker need not give a reason why th^ vote for or against 
a man?

A That's true.
Q They could vote against a man, then, because 

they didn't like him?
A That's true.
Q Or they could vote against a man because of

the color of his skin?
A It all amounts to the same thing; they could

vote against him for many reasons, and you could Just 
list any number of them you would like.

Q Just the way you can vote against a man or 
for a man in a fraternity election, is that correct?

A •mat's right; or a national election.
Q Have you ever watched Dr. Eaton perform 

surgery?
A I have not.
q  Have you ever conducted a general investigation 

of his medical competence and character?
A No.
Q I'm going to ask you again for the record,

Doctor: when you voted In February, did you cast an 
affirmative or negative vote on Dr. Eaton's application?

A According to the males and regulations of the



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hospital it was a secret ballot; I choose to honor those 
until such time as they might be changed.

Q Isn't it also your understanding, according 
to the by-laws of the hospital, that before a second 
ballot can be taken two or three months after a first 
ballot on a man's application, that the general staff 
has to vote to permit that second ballot?

A To my knowledge this is the first time anyone 
has ever had two ballots taken, at least so close 
together. No, the general staff had nothing to do with 
the second ballot being asked for; the Board of Managers 
of the hospital requested it.

q  Was the general staff unhappy about the second
ballot'’

A Yes, they were unhappy in general.
Q Do you think that might account in part for 

the different result between the first and second ballot?
A Hiat's true. But both of them —  well, you 

have the percentages.
Q Is it your understanding, Doctor, that the 

Board of Managers exercises some independent Judgment 
on an application?

A That's true, they cam accept or reject the 
recommendations of the medical staff; however, this 
would be very unusual that they would do it.



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Q Have they ever done so to your knowledge?
A Ihis Board of Managers to ray knowledge has

never done so.
Q But it Is your opinion that they would have 

the power to do so?
A It Is understood that they do have the power 

to do that.
Q But as a matter of practice they always 

follow the recommendation of the staff?
A They are not doctors and are not able to 

Judge professional capacity; therefore, they choose 
not to take that as their responsibility, though on 
paper they can do it.

Q But we are not certain, are we, that the 
doctors are judging professional capacity either; we 
are not certain of that, are we?

A Well, I imagine some doctors feel in their 
minds that they are certain; others perhaps not.

Q Tie procedure permits that, doesn’t it?
A That's right.

MR. MELESNER: Your witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOGUE:

Q Doctor, Mr. Melesner asked you several questions



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about a trial or some sort of action which I assume you 
were related to. Was this in the Superior Court of 
New Hanover County?

A Yes.
Q And at this time Dr. Eaton, I believe was 

the defendant in that action?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the State of North Carolina was the 

plaintiff?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you present at that trial most of the

time ?
A Most of the time I was in the courtroom.
Q Now, with respect to the charge, do you know 

what it was?
A Yes.
Q What was the charge against Dr. Eaton?
A Criminal abortion leading to death; and he 

was being tried for murder.
Q For murder?
A Yes.
Q Now, did Dr. Eaton testify in that trial?
A No.
q  Do you recall in that trial where the body of

the deceased was found?



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A Yes.
Q Where was It found?
A In Dr. Eaton's office.
Q In Dr. Eaton'8 office?
A That is my understanding.
Q Do you recall who went and found the body

there?
A An undertaker was called, I don't know who; but 

apparently the coroner was not called.
Q You say the coroner was not called?
A That is my understanding.
Q There was no evidence there that the coroner 

was called; is that correct?
A There was no evidence.
Q Was the undertaker French I. Davis; is that

correct?
A It very well might be. I imagine you could 

rely on the records of the court.
Q Do you recall what time of day or night that 

the body was found?
A No.
Q You don't?
A It was during the daylight hours, I believe,

but other than that I do not know.
Q Was there any evidence that this .deceased had



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been a patient of Dr. Eaton?
A I don't believe that she was a patient of 

Dr. Eaton so far as we knew.
Q Were any of Dr. Eaton's medical records on 

this patient available in court?
A They were not available in court.
Q You never saw the medical records of Dr. Eaton 

on this patient?
A Yes, I saw some medical records on this 

patient•
Q What was that - a death certificate?
A No. That was —  shall I tell you, or do you

want to ask me?
Q Yes, sir, tell me.
A There was a permit form written out stating 

that this woman - she signed her name - knew that she 
was in a state of abortion; and it was in the possession 
of Mr. Burney, Dr. Eaton's lawyer, and he showed this 
to Dr, Lumb and to me. He swore Dr. Lumb to secrecy; 
he didn't say anything about it to me. This apparently 
was written prior to the time she was to be admitted to 
a hospital.

Q Was she admitted to the hospital?
A Apparently the intent, as we understood it, 

was for her to be admitted to the hospital, but she was not



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admitted
Q At that trial did a Philip William Gilroy 

testify? Do you know of any Philip William Gilroy?
A The name is awfully familiar. Who was hej 

could you identify his position?
Q I can't identify him, no. How about a Mrs. 

Viola H. Smith?
A I don't think so. Really, the trial almost 

entirely consisted of medical evidence that the woman, 
in the opinion of those experts who testified, had been 
aborted, and that the abortion led to her death.

Q Did you examine the death certificate on 
this woman?

A I saw it or heard of itj it was that the 
woman died of anaphylactic shock to penicillin.

Q Was this deceased woman's name Alma Jenlta 
Fredrick?

A That sounds right. I'm vague on these 
answers, because I was assisting another pathologist on 
this and did not testify myself, but I think I have the 
facts pretty well straight.

Q Now, I believe you stated or started to state 
that at the close of the evidence the judge made some 
comment or statement. Do you recall what that was?

A In general context, yes. He stated that



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there was insufficient evidence for the case to continue, 
and that he moved —  he desired -- he wished that the 
case be dismissed. He said, however, that this should 
not alter the opinions of any persons in the courtroom; 
and from the statement such as this, I, of course, would 
conclude that it was not an acquittal but rather was a 
dismissal because of insufficient evidence presented 
at court to link Dr, Eaton to the case.

Q Now, Doctor, as secretary of the medical 
staff, how long have you been secretary; did you state?

A About a year and a half except for a period 
of about two months in about May and June,

Q As secretary of the medical staff, have you 
observed the handling of applications to the courtesy 
staff from time to time?

A Yes,
q  And the procedure used in handling them?
A I have.
Q Would you state whether or not the procedure 

used with respect to Dr. Eaton's application was the 
same as that which has been used with respect to 
application of other white and Negro doctors?

A Yes; it was the same the first time it came 
through except for its being delayed. The second time 
it differed somewhat in that the executive committee by



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request of the Board of Managers had the votes go out. 
Usually It’s not the executive committee that handles 
It.

Q Now, Isn't it true under your by-laws, though, 
that the Board of Managers has the right to accept a 
recommendation, reject a recommendation, or refer It 
back for further consideration?

A Yes; they cam reject or accept, and presumably 
can send It back.

Q And In this case they referred it back for a 
second consideration; isn't that true, sir?

A That is true.
Q Now at either time Dr. Eaton's application 

was being considered, did any member of the Board of 
Managers or the director of the hospital attempt to 
influence your vote in the matter one way or the other?

A No, not really. No.
Q Do you know of any influence they tried to 

put on any other person? .
Lotts

A No. Obey wanted a revote jtiihr the people —  

presumably they wanted the people to be mindful of the 
fact this would probably come up for this type of 
trial or hearing, and to be sure of how they wanted to 
vote.

Q I believe Dr. William Wheeler and Dr, Daniel



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Roane, two Negro doctors, are presently on the staff] is 
that correct?

A TBiat is true; and a third one, Dr, Gray, now 
deceased, was also admitted,

Q And their applications were handled under 
these same procedures?

A Ihree doctors, three colored doctors. Yes,
sir,

MR, HOGUE: I have no further questions,

REDIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MEISSNER:
Q Now, Doctor, let me Just clarify something. 

You tore up your application in December, is that not 
correct, so you cast a ballot in favor of Dr. Eaton 
being placed on the staff?

A What I did was mark it against Dr, Eaton, 
and then I looked at it and I tore it up and threw it 
away; so it counted for him.

Q So it counted for him?
A Right.
Q Do you know of any attempt that has been made 

to re-try Dr. Eaton for this criminal charge?
A No, I don't believe he could be re-tried for



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the same thing,
Q Now, Mr, Hogue has asked you some questions 

about whether or not anyone on the board tried to in­
fluence your decision. Did you do anything to try to 
influence the decision of the people on the board?

A No, My conversations with the board were 
fairly limited,

Q Do you know that Dr, Eaton had the Medical 
Examiner for the State of Virginia here?

A Yes, I know. Dr, Mann. Dr. Mann is not a 
pathologist; he is a physician and a lawyer.

Q Dr, Mann - was he awaiting to testify for Dr,
Eaton?

A No, Dr. Mann was not here awaiting to testifyj 
an assistant was.

Q Do you know that gentleman's name?
A No,
Q Are you certain that Dr. Mann wasn't here?
A He wa3 not in the courtroom.
Q Do you know that he was not in Wilmington, 

North Carolina, on that day?
A No, I don't know.
Q So he may have been?
A Of course, he may have been in town; he wasn't 

where the case was being tried in the courthouse.



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Q Of course, his evidence wasn’t necessary, was
It?

A His evidence —  it would have been very 
interesting to hear his evidence.

Q And you are certain that Dr. Mann is not a 
pathologist?

A This is what I have been told.
Q You might be in error, though, on this?
A It's possible, but I don’t believe I am in 

error; I don't believe he is a certified pathologist.
My understanding is that his training is primarily legal, 
and that he is also an M.D.; but I understand that he has 
not had specialized training.

Q On what is your understanding based?
A On what people have told me.
Q What people?
A Dr. Helpern, the Chief Medical Examiner for the

State of New York, who is an outstanding authority on «
£sp* <*..//> t!^ A rc/v sit—  ' l ̂  /a'"'

medical-legal matters, for instar.og^ pathology, in this *<-*<

country, who also testified at the case.
Q He testified for the prosecution?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that Dr. Eaton also had waiting to

testify the Chief of the Basic Science Division of the 
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology?



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A Yes. Dr. Johnson. I have met Dr. Johnson.
I knew that he was available to testify# but he also 
was not in court; presumably he was in Washington and 
would fly down if he was needed.

Q You are not certain of that either, are you?
A Of course, I'm not certain that he wasn't 

in town, but he wasn't in the courtroom.
Q Now, did Dr, Lumb cast a ballot in the December

vote?
A Yes.
Q Did Dr. Lumb testify against Dr. Eaton in 

this case?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that Dr. Lumb tried to influence 

members of the staff to vote against Dr. Eaton, and that 
for that reason there v*as a second ballot?

A I don't believe Dr. Lumb had anything to do 
with the second ballot,

Q I'm talking with respect to the first ballot.
Did Dr. Lumb attempt to influence members of the staff 
against Dr. Eaton?

A No, I don't think he did.
Q Did you?
A Well, not intentionally. If I did influence 

anyone, it was not with the intention of influencing anyone.



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I will clarify that, if I may. People asked me specific 
questions concerning the trial, and I answered them.

Q Isn't it also likely that they asked Dr.
Lumb specific questions?

A Of course, yes.
Q And isn't it also likely that Dr. Lumb told 

people on the staff that he thought they should vote 
against Dr. Eaton?

MR. HOGUEi I object to the question as 
to its form and also as to its content.

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Will you answer the question, please?
A Do we have a Judge to rule on this?

MR. MELESNER: You may answer the question.
The objection is for the record, sir.

THE WITNESS: I see. Is that right, Mr.
Hogue?

MR. HOGUE: Yes, sir, you can answer it
if you can. I don't see how anybody could 
answer that question.

THE WITNESS: Well, I can't answer the
question.

MR. MELESNER: Would the reporter please
read back that question?

Q (Read by Reporter) "And isn't it also likely



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that Dr, Lumb told people on the staff that he thought
they should vote against Dr, Eaton?”

A Let me say this, If I might deviate slightly. 
Dr. Lumb was very depressed over this entire thing, and 
It Is likely that Dr, Lumb's Influence was more for 
Dr. Eaton than against him, except for a period of time 
right after the trial during which he was a little bit 
disturbed. He felt his professional reputation had been 
smirched,

Q So that the trial wasn't a basis upon which 
one could oppose Dr. Eaton?

A Well, I don't know about that.
Q Well, the man who was closest to the trial 

didn't oppose Dr. Eaton because of It?
A Dr, Lumb eventually did not oppose Dr.

Eaton. I don't know what his vote finally was, but he 
became very noncommltal toward the last.

Q Wasn't your reputation also on the line?
A Well, I expect it might have been.
Q You were Dr. Lumb's associate?
A Yes, I worked with him closely on the case.
Q And you have taken over his position?
A Yes.
Q The result of the trial, then, affected Dr.

Lumb's reputation?



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A I didn't say that. I 3aid that he felt it 
might have.

Q I believe you said he was depressed over it?
A He was very unhappy over the whole thing: 

first, that a doctor in the community was tried for 
abortion and, second, that he was involved in the trial 
and, third, that he had to testify against a doctor.
He was unhappy over the whole thing, and so was the 
entire medical community.

Q Were you unhappy with it?
A I didn't like it. Fortunately, I didn't have 

to testify,
q  You mentioned a statement earlier supposedly 

shown to Dr, Lurab by Dr. Eaton's attorney; is that 
correct?

A Yes.
Q Didn't this statement indicate that the 

deceased knew she was in a state of abortion, and that 
no one in Dr, Eaton's office or Dr. Eaton had anything 
to do with causing that state of abortion?

A It implied this,
q  Well, now, it said it, didn't it?
A No, I really don't know what the words were.

It was a good while back that this happened.
q  So you may have been wrong in your characterizatl



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of that statement when Mr. Hogue asked you about it?
A I don't think so. It would be nice to get 

that record from Dr. Eaton, because he surely must still 
possess it.

Q You think the language involved should 
decide it, not your testimony about what the language 
is?

A Well, it would be nice to decide it, if we are 
going to bring this unpleasant event back up, on documents 
that were made on the spot at that time rather than 
recollections many months later.

Q Well, did you bring this unpleasant memory 
to mind when you cast your ballot against Dr, Eaton in 
February? wevei5—

A Well, I have,) really forgotten it since. Now, 
mind you, I haven't told you how I voted.

Q Let me strike that question then about the 
way you voted. Do you recall this unhappy event when 
you cast your ballot in February?

A I expect I did.
Q Did it influence your decision?
A Well, remember I voted for him previously,
Q Did it influence your decision in February?
A Remember, this was the second time?
Q lhat is correct.



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A Well, It didn't Influence ray decision the 
first time, and X doubt if it influenced my decision

A u_j>
the second time; it may have in an unoonooious manner.

Q You said that other physicians asked you 
questions about the trial at the time of the discussion 
of Dr. Eaton’s application. Vihat were these specific 
questions?

A Rather like you are asking me now, except, 
you know, in a more---

Q I ’m afraid I can't hear you. Would you speak 
up, please?

A They asked more or less the same questions 
you are asking now except in, of course, different 
language and under different circumstances,

Q Well, now, Doctor, I have asked a lot of 
questions and it is difficult for me to keep track of 
which ones you mean; so would you repeat some of them 
for me?

A About the trial.
Q You said "specific questions." I want to 

know what specific questions about the trial they 
asked.

A This happened a long time ago. Many people 
have talked about this. 3hey asked whether I thought 
an abortion was done, and I said, "Yes, in my own mind



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"Did her deaththere is no doubt of it.” They asked, 
result from an abortion?" And I said, "In my mind there 
is no doubt of it." It was established that her body 
was found in his office, and so I made a statement as 
to that.

Q But you say that if the trial itself and 
the events surrounding it influenced your decision, 
it was only unconscious?

A I think so. Of course,•unconscious feelings 
are very strong feelings.

Q Do you know who brought the supposed crime 
to the attention of the police?

A I understand that a relative of the woman 
who died first spoke about it to someone, and it started
a rumor. It eventually got to the coroner and other

a *. <a(
persons in authority, and they then questioned the 
explanation,

Q Do you know how many months after the death 
this took place?

A It was two or three; it was awhile afterwards.
Q Only two or three?
A I don't remember. It was a good while after­

wards.
Q A good while afterwards?
A Well, really, if you were going to ask me that,



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I wish you had asked me to bring my records on that, too. 
It was a good while afterwards.

Q To the best of your recollection, Doctor.
Now, was that person who spoke to the sheriff, the 
coroner, about it actually Dr. Wheeler?

A I don’t have that information. Really, I
have to say I don't know who first brought it to the 
attention of the authorities, but I hear that first 
the family got word about the case; and then where it 
went, I don't know.

Q As far as you know it could have been brought 
to the attention of the authorities solely through 
malice?

MR. HOGUE: Objection to that question.
A It's possible,

MR. MELESNER: No further questions from
me, Mr. Hogue.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUE:
Q Doctor, no member of the governing board or 

its director had anything to do with that investigation 
as far as you know, did it?

A That '3 right, so far as I know.



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Q
did you, 

A

You never had any dealings with them at all, 
with respect to Dr. Eaton's criminal indictment?

That's right, they weren't involved.
Q Your dealings were purely with the SBI, 

the State Bureau of Investigation, is that correct, 
and the local police; isn't that correct?

A And the coroner's office, yes,^Mr. Burney 
and Mr. Bowman.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’S NOTES
P age L ine



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D R . H A R R Y  Van V E L S 0 R , having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Will you state your full name and medical 

specialty, please, Doctor.
A Harry VanVelsor, Dermatologist.
Q How long have you been practicing medicine?
A Since 1949.
Q How long have you been practicing here in 

Wilmington?
A Since 1952.
Q Are you a member of the staff at James Walker

Hospital?
A I am.
Q How long have you been a member of the staff?
A Since, I think, '52 or '53* courtesy staff

then; and regular staff since ' 5 4 - 1  believe now, I'm 
not sure - approximately '54.

Q Are you on the staff of Community Hospital?
A No, I'm not.
Q Are you familiar with Dr. Hubert Eaton's

attempts to gain membership on the courtesy staff of



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James Walker?
A I am.
Q Do you recall in December of 1964 and again 

in February of 1965 receiving a ballot to vote on Dr. 
Eaton's application?

A I do.
Q Do you recall how you voted on those occasions?
A I do.
Q How did you vote on those occasions?
A I voted for him being accepted on the

staff.
Q To the best of your understanding were those 

secret ballots?
A Yes.
Q And was any reason given for the vote?
A Well, the reason was he was applying for staff 

membership; other than that, I didn’t know of any reason.
Q When you voted, you didn't give any reason, 

did you?
A No.
Q And is it your understanding of the procedure 

that no physician need give a reason vrtiy he casts his 
ballot?

A Well, I always thought that it was a secret 
ballot and you didn't have to say why,



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Q Isn't it possible, then, that physicians who 
opposed Dr. Eaton could do so for personal reasons?

A I imagine so.
Q Reasons in no way related to his medical

competence or character?
A I suppose so.
Q For racial reasons?
A Possibly.
Q Because of his civil rights activity?
A Possibly.
Q Or just because they didn't like the way he 

looked ?
A Well, I think that's stretching it a little

bit.
Q Well, it is possible, isn't it?
A It's possible.
Q Do you know of any reason why Dr. Eaton should 

not be on the staff at James Walker?
A Well, if I did, I would have voted against

him.
Q Are you aware that the credentials committee 

had endorsed his application?
A Yes.
Q Is that an endorsement of an applicant's

competence?



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Q Did you give weight to their endorsement?
A Well, it helped —  it let me make up my mind.

If they had not endorsed him, I certainly would not have 
voted for him,

Q Are you aware of any standards for medical 
staff membership at James Walker aside from those in the 
by-laws of the medical staff?

A I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. 
Could you be more specific?

Q Are there any standards or guidelines to your 
knowledge which suggest how a physician should vote and 
what he should consider when passing on an application 
for courtesy staff membership at the hospital?

A Well, I don't know that any are written
down,

Q There are none that are written down?
A I'm not aware of them,
Q What did you consider?
A Well, if you want to know why I voted that 

way, I'll be happy to tell you,
Q Would you, please?
A I feel that once a physician is on the staff 

of James Walker Hospital, all physicians will then be 
required to live up to certain standards set by the hospital

A Iheoretically it is, yes, sir,



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In the practice of medicine. This I feel will help the 
entire community, patients and physicians and the 
hospital alikej and X felt that any physician who is 
competent should be allowed to practice there and 
prove his competency and thereby improve the quality of 
medicine in Wilmington.

Q If he were deficient after being placed on 
the staff, could he be taken off the staff?

A Yes. Anyone who is on the staff at James 
Walker, if he doesn't live up to certain standards, can 
be taken off the staff for a certain length of time.

Q Or his privileges could be limited?
A That's what I mean - privileges suspended.
Q Is that common In medicine today when a 

physician isn't able to keep up to the quality of 
practice?

A It happens not infrequently at the James 
Walker Hospital.

Q So if Dr. Eaton wasn't a good surgeon, for 
example, he could be retained on the staff, but his 
surgical privilege could be suspended?

A No, not If he's not a good surgeon. If he 
doesn't live up to the standards that are set by the 
James Walker Hospital. Now, of course, I don't know 
the standards in the surgical department because I have



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nothing to do with the surgical department, but I know 
they have certain standards that all the surgeons have 
to live up to.

Q Are you aware that with possibly one or two 
or three exceptions, every white physician in the City of 
Wilmington is presently on the staff at James Walker or 
has been on the staff at James Walker?

A I believe I know that.
Q Did you attend the medical staff meetings 

which discussed Dr. Eaton's application?
A I believe I did.
Q There was a general discussion of Dr. Eaton's 

application?
A Well, I don't recall, honestly, hearing Dr, 

Eaton's name mentioned. I think I recall some talk 
about changing the voting laws, but I don't recall his 
name being specifically mentioned.

Q Is it possible that some of the physicians on 
the staff of James Walker opposed Dr. Eaton because of 
his opposition to the new hospital bond issue?

A It's possible.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any physicians 

opposing him for that reason?
A No, I do not.
Q Was that a fairly controversial issue among



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physicians here - the new bond issue?
A I don't think it was very controversial; I 

think most of them favored it.
Q There was some opposition in the community on

it?
A Considerable.
Q Do you know anything of fears expressed by 

Negro physicians and the Negro community in general about 
this new hospital?

A No. As I said, I'm not on the staff of 
Community, so I don't know what the feeling was at that 
hospital. You hear a lot of rumors in town, but I 
don't listen to rumors. N

MR. MELESNER: Thank you, Doctor. That
is all from me.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUE I
Q Doctor, you are aware that three out of the 

four Negro doctors who have applied for the staff of 
James Walker Hospital have been admitted, aren't you?

A Yes, I am.
Q And two of them, I believe, are presently on

the staff?



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Q And the procedures used with respect to them 
and with respect to the white doctors who have been 
admitted since you came to Wilmington, were the same 
as those with respect to Dr. Eaton, weren't they?

A That's right.
Q They were all voted on?
A That's right.
Q Did any members of the board of directors of 

the hospital, the Board of Managers, or Mr. Martin the 
executive director of the hospital, attempt to influence 
your decision in this matter at all?

A No.
MR. HOQUE: I have no further questions.

REDIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Doctor, did you vote for or against the other 

Negro physicians who applied?
A For.
Q All of them?
A Yes, sir.

A Yes, sir.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’S NOTES
P a g e L in e



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D R . S A M U E L  V A R S H A U E R .  having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELESNER:
Q Will you state your full name and medical 

specialty.
A Samuel E. Warshauer, internal medicine.
Q How long have you been practicing medicine 

here in Wilmington, Doctor?
A Continuously since 1945.
Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital? 
A Yes.
Q What positions do you hold on the staff?
A At the present time?
Q Correct.
A I'm attending physician in medicine and

president of the medical staff.
Q Were you president during December of 1964 

and February of 1965?
A I took this office —  let's see, this is 

•65 —  since October the 1st, 1963.
Q Are you now or were you ever on the staff of

Community Hospital?



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A Yes.
Q I believe your staff membership there

terminated---
A Not completely. I still utilize the hospital 

as a courtesy member and as a consultant.
Q Are you also a member of the Board of Managers 

of the James Walker Memorial Hospital?
A By virtue of my position on the staff.
Q I presume, then, you have been on the board 

as long as you have been president of the medical staff?
A That's correct, yes.
Q Are you aware of the lawsuit which Dr. Eaton 

brought against the hospital, and the order which the 
court issued in August of 1964?

A Yes, sir.
Q What was your understanding of that order?
A That the hospital was not to discriminate in 

its staff membership by reason of race, or not to reject 
applicants by reason of race.

Q Did you also understand that the hospital was 
to be considered a public hospital?

A Yes, sir.
Q Was it your understanding, and is it your 

understanding that the hospital could deny staff 
privileges for any other reason than race?



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A The hospital can deny staff privileges for
any reason other than race, yes,

Q Could do so because it Just didn't like the 
way a man acted?

A Well, when you speak of the hospital, you are 
speaking of an impersonal thing. People act for the 
hospital according to its rules and regulations,

Q Who makes the decision on staff membership?
A The final decision is made by the Board of 

Managers upon recommendation of the attending staff of 
the hospital.

Q Did the Board of Managers make the decision 
with respect to Dr. Eaton's last application?

A ihey approved the recommendation of the 
attending staff.

Q They did not attempt to exercise any independent 
Judgment ?

A They requested the staff to reconsider his 
application, and the staff did so,

Q And the staff rejected the application] 
correct?

A On a reconsideration, yes.
Q And was it solely because of this rejection 

that the board turned down Dr, Eaton's application?
A The board was unwilling to act contrary to the



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/staff recommendation.
Q Has this always been the policy of the board?
A As far as I know, the board has never acted 

in an opposite manner to a staff recommendation for 
membership. The board feels that the medical staff is 
better able to evaluate an applicants qualifications 
than the board is; that’s my impression, sir.

Q Did you attend board meetings which discussed 
Dr. Eaton's application?

A Yes, sir, I have attended practically all the 
board meetings since I have been a member.

Q What was the nature of the discussion about 
Dr. Eaton’s application?

A I don't recall exactly. I don't know how to 
answer that, really. The discussion ranged over wide 
areas, and I Just don't know exactly —  I would be 
speaking for somebody else,what somebody else said at 
board meetings, and I don't recall it in sufficient 
detail to really tell you that.

Q Do you think that the board is empowered to 
place a physician on the courtesy staff regardless of 
what the medical staff decides?

A It has that power in its rules and regulations.
Q It chose not to exercise that power with

respect to Dr. Eaton.



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A Well, It has chosen not to exercise that 
power In regard to any applicant as far as I know.

Q Do you recall how you voted on Dr. Eaton's 
application?

A I did not send in a ballot; and when one is 
not sent in, it is counted as an affirmative.

Q Is this true on both occasions, December and 
February?

A I think so.
Q Why did you not send in a ballot and support 

Dr, Eaton's application?
A When one doesn't send in a ballot, one in 

effect supports the application.
Q Why did you support the application is what 

I am asking you?
A I did not in my own mind have a valid reason 

for voting against him.
Q Isn't it true under the procedure that the 

medical staff does not give a reason why it has failed 
to recommend an applicant?

A That's true, yes.
Q Then the only important thing is the total 

of the votes?
A The actual vote.
Q The board doesn't seek to learn what the reasons



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were?
A The board sought in this case to learn what 

the reasons were, but apparently they were —  the 
communication to the staff was a bit faulty. Maybe 1 
had something to do with itj I mean maybe it was my 
fault. As I recall, when the board sent the application 
back for reconsideration, they requested the staff to 
give them reasons for the rejection, and I was supposed 
to Inform the staff of this situation; but it was my 
feeling that the staff was not willing to state 
reasons - that is, the members of the staff; they were 
of the opinion that they could, as they had always 
done in the past, keep their reasons to themselves and 
vote as they so felt; and I could not pursue it any 
further, and they merely voted again, and the applicant 
was again rejected, and the Board of Managers felt 
obliged to accept that recommendation.

Q So it 1b possible, isn't it, that members of 
the medical Btaff voted against Dr. Eaton for reasons 
you would consider invalid ones?

A I can't speak for those who voted against 
him; they might have had very valid reasons.

Q And they might have had very invalid reasons?
A Well, I can't say why.
Q Because you don't know the reasons?



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A That's correct, yes.
Q Do you know of any attempt made by yourself 

or the board, other than what you have stated, to learn 
the reasons why Dr. Eaton's application was rejected?

A None except what I have already stated. The 
staff was instructed not to consider race in any 
applicant for the medical staff of the hospital, and 
I am not at all sure that that was the deciding factor 
in their vote in this case at all. They accepted other 
applicants, two others who applied, of the Negro 
race.

Q Dr. Eaton was always in the foreground of 
this controversy,wasn't he, though?

A Well, you know that as well as I do, sir.
MR. HOGUEi I would like for the lawyer 

to define "foreground." Do you mean that his 
name first appeared in the complaint with the 
other names* is that what "foreground" means? 
Because you have used that several times, and 
there were several Negro plaintiffs in this 
action. The "foreground" means that his name 
was first on the pleadings or just what it 
means, I would like to know, because I know 
his name was first on the pleadings. Is that 
what you mean?



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MR. MELESNERs (To the witness) This Is 
a lawyer speaking for the record, Doctor. 
That's not a question, at least not to you,

Q What we have here Is a situation where the 
staff voted, and nobody knows or can say the reasons for 
the result; isn't that correct?

A Well, I don't know the reason.
Q So the reason might have been Dr. Eaton's 

civil rights activity; it might have?
A That's your statement; I really don't know,

sir,
Q You don't know one way or the other?
A No, sir.
Q It is possible that you don't know the reasons 

the way people voted that they voted because of Dr. 
Eaton's civil rights activities; isn't that so?

MR. HOGUE: I will object to the form
of the question.

A Well, sir, that would be a speculation on my 
part; and I don't think I'm entitled to speculate why 
people voted as they did.

Q Well, actually, Doctor, I am Just trying to —  

perhaps I have established it so often that I Just want 
to do so (again. Ihe procedure used by the medical staff 
and accepted by the board permits physicians to vote for



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purely subjective reasons; isn*t that so?
A Yes.
Q And these subjective reasons could be anything? 
A They would have to be reasons satisfactory 

to the person who voted. The criteria would be his 
own.

Q
A
Q

set forth; 
A

Those critera are not set forth in the by-laws? 
No, sir.
And there is no other document where they are 
isn't that correct?
In the voting?

Q Right.
A Not in the voting.
Q Well, now, the credentials committee passed 

favorably on Dr. Eaton; isn't that so?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you a member of that committee?
A Ex-officio as president of the medical staff. 
Q What is the function of the credentials

committee?
A Supposed to look into the credentials of 

applicants and their character and their training and 
to see if they can find any reason for rejecting or 
accepting him in order to make a recommendation.

Q Are its recommendations usually followed?



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A Usually; not always.
Q Did you vote In favor of Dr. Roane and Dr. 

Gray when their applications came in?
A For Dr. Roane, yes. I don't recall about Dr. 

Gray; I had some reservations about him, and I don't 
know whether I voted for him or not.

Q As a board member do you think that you were 
obliged to conduct an independent investigation before 
voting to follow the recommendation of the medical 
staff?

A No.
Q Do you think that as far as you are concerned 

the board discharged its responsibility under the court 
order by filing this recommendation?

MR. HOGUE: I object to that question.
BY MR. MELESNER:

Q That is for the purpose of the record, Doctor, 
You may answer the question.

A I really think the board did everything it 
could, under past precedence of its action since the 
hospital has been organized, to follow the court order 
other than overriding the staff recommendation, and I 
don't know whether that would have been a proper thing 
for the board to do or not; it could have gotten into 
great difficulty if it had made a practice of overriding



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staff recommendations in medical matters since the board 
is composed entirely of laymen up until recent years.

Q We get back to this pointi Isn't it possible 
that the staff decided on non-medical reasons?

A Anything is possible; I don't know.
Q Do you think you may have Just some people 

on the medical staff who are opposed in principle to the 
idea of a Negro being on the staff of James Walker?

A At the present time I don't think that there 
are any members - this is an opinion - that are opposed 
to membership on the staff because a person is a Negro. 
Ihat might have been quite true in the past, but I think 
the thinking of most of the members of the staff has 
been altered.

Q But there are a few who are opposed to Dr. 
Eaton because he is a Negro, and a few who voted against 
the other Negro physicians; isn't that correct?

A I don't know, I really don't. Some of them 
might have been opposed in that manner and still have 
voted for him. It's hard for me to give you the feeling 
of other people and their thinking; I'm not that close 
to all of the staff members as to know what their 
thinking is; and when one talks to persons in the hall 
and listens to gossip, one doesn't know if that is a 
person's true feeling or not.



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Q Did some of this gossip concern Dr, Eaton being 
a Negro?

A No, sir, not that I know of, not at all.
Q Doctor, this Is a letter which you Bent

February 3, 1 9 6 5 , to the Members of the Attending 
Staff. I would like you to read the last paragraph and 
tell me what It means.

A That's what I referred to originally. "The 
secretary of the governing body, Mr. Martin, has left it 
up to the medical members of the Board of Managers, 
namely, Dr. Knox and . . me ". . .Dr. Warshauer to 
make the necessary explanations, and any member wishing 
details in this regard may discuss the matter with the 
medical members of the board."

You see, in the by-law it statess "The 
governing body may accept or reject the recommendations 
of the medical staff or refer it back for further con­
sideration."

Well, we elected to do the latter. In this 
case, the latter cases "The governing body shall in­
struct its secretary to state to the medical staff the 
reasons for such action."

Well, that's the reason of the last paragraph) 
so that the staff could know the reasons for such action. 
And those who asked me, I told them that it was sent



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back to them to make sure that he was not rejected on 
account of race, and that the board would, if possible, 
like to know any reasons any member might have for voting 
against him.

Q Did the board receive any such reasons?
A As I gathered, the feeling of the staff was 

that they felt strongly that they should not be 
asked those reasons; they felt that their prerogatives 
were abridged by the board asking them for these 
reasons.

Q That they could vote without reason?
A That is correct; and that was their very 

strong feeling.
Q Isn*t it possible that some of the language 

in that last paragraph, phrases such as "necessary 
explanations" and "any member wishing details in this 
regard," might have been misinterpreted by some of the 
physicians on the staff?

A Well, it was clear enough to me when I wrote 
it. I meant to imply that if a member wanted to know 
why the application was returned by the board, they 
could ask me and I would tell them all I knew about it.

Q Ihere was some resentment among the staff 
against this second ballot, then?

A There might have been. Yes, I think there



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probably was.
Q Do you think some of the members of the staff 

might have been resentful because of their understanding 
of this last paragraph?

A I don't know about that. I thought the 
la3t paragraph was necessary to comply with the by-law 
about sending it back for reasons. I dictated this 
letter, and I thought it was self-explanatory; I could 
have gone into great detail about reasons at the time, 
but I wasn't quite sure; I would have been relying 
largely upon my memory of a board meeting, and I thought 
probably a verbal exchange might clarify the situation 
better.

Q And so you relied on the hope of these exchanges 
rather than a letter of transmittal?

A Biat's right, yes.
Q Did you have many of these verbal exchanges?
A At least two that I can recall; maybe more.
Q How many more? Your best recollection.
A Oh, half a dozen.
Q Doctor, if a physician is placed on the medical 

staff, courtesy medical staff, at James Walker and it is 
then observed that his competence isn't what was thought 
before he was placed on the staff, can his privileges be 
suspended?



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A Yes.
Q Isn't it generally true that most every 

white physician in Wilmington has been or is presently 
on the staff of James Walker?

A It's generally true, yes.
Q Do you know the number of white physicians 

who have been denied courtesy staff privileges at James 
Walker in the last twenty years?

A I can recall two.
MR. MELESNERi I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUE:
Q Doctor, isn't it true that three out of the 

four Negro physicians who have applied for the staff 
have been admitted, that is, Dr. Oray, Dr. Roane and
Dr. Wheeler?

A Yes.
MR. HOGUEi I have no further questions. 

REDIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MELESNER:

Q ©iese Negro physicians were admitted only as 
a result of this litigation; isn't that correct?



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MR. HOGUE: I object to that question.
Do you want me to state my reason for the 
objection?

MR. MEISSNER: No.
MR. HOGUE: I object to it because prior

to this the hospital had been adjudged to be a 
private hospital, and that we didn’t have to 
admit Negro physicians. I also object to it 
because Dr. Wheeler was not a plaintiff in 
thl3 litigation, consequently the question is 
Inaccurate in that respect.

MR. MELESNER: Will you read the question?
Q (Read by Reporter) "These Negro physicians were 

admitted only as a result of this litigation; isn't that 
correct?"

A I think you might state that the applications 
were submitted following the litigation's conclusion 
and were submitted to the staff, and the action of the 
board in these cases is a matter of record. ". . . a s  
a result of this litigation" - I don't know if that 
strictly applies. Prior to this litigation the staff 
was limited, in effect, to white physicians.

Q In effect because of an all-white by-law, 
correct?

A Well, that was subsequently changed. It



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required —  It had some other requirement which, really, 
in effect —  you might say that.

Q Are you referring to the membership in the 
New Hanover County Hospital? f S o  (Lit )

A Or eligibility for membership or some such 
phrasing which we subsequently withdrew too because we 
thought that was not a legal way to do things. But the 
applications were made following the litigation, and 
they were voted upon and handled in the usual, routine 
fashion.

Q Just one or two more questions, Doctor. Is
it your understanding that these applications were re­
submitted pursuant to the order of the federal court in 
August?

A I don't know if I can answer that exactly or
not.

Q You don’t know one way or the other?
A No.
Q Do you know whether or not the federal court 

made any findings about the past practice of the hospital?
A All the information I have gotten about 

court decisions have come from the hospital attorney.
MR. HOGUE: I object to that, because the

court order speaks for itself.
MR. MELESNER: I'm testing the man’s



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understanding of It.
THE WITNESS: My understanding Is that

the hospital cannot discriminate against staff applicants 
by reason of race or any other qualification of a 
similar nature,

Q You don't know whether or not the district 
court In Its order made some finding about the reason 
Dr. Eaton's application had been rejected in the past?

A I think the court made a finding that he had 
been rejected because of his race, In the past.

MR. MELESNER: That is all. Thank you
very much, Doctor.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

P age L ine



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D R. E D W I N  J. W E L L S ,  having been duly sworn,
testified as follows:

DIRE CT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Please state your name and medical specialty 

for the record, Doctor,
A Edwin J. Wells, surgeon.
Q How long have you been practicing here in 

Wilmington, Doctor?
A Twelve years,
Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital?
A Yes, I am.
Q Are you on the staff at Community Hospital?
A I am not certain, I was last year, I did not 

reapply this year as I remember, I was on the courtesy 
staff. OSie reason I say I'm not certain is that I think 
the courtesy staff has been abolished, I'm not sure.

Q That is your best recollection?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever watched Dr. Eaton perform 

surgery?
A
Q

I have not.
Have you ever made any study of the charts of



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his operations?
A I have not,
Q Did you make any independent investigation of 

his medical competence during 1964 or 1965?
A I did not.
Q In December of 1964 and again in February of

1965 did you receive a ballot on Dr. Eaton's application 
for staff membership at James Walker?

A I did.
Q Were you aware that his application had been 

passed favorably by the credentials committee of the 
hospital?

A I do not recall.
Q Was Dr. Eaton's application, to your knowledge, 

discussed at a staff meeting held in December of 1964?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Did you discuss his application with other 

members of the staff?
A Yes, I have.
Q With whom have you discussed it?
A I do not recall specifically.
Q Do you recall how you voted in December and 

again in February?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q How did you vote?



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A My understanding is that this is privileged 
communication,

Q You don’t wish to answer that question?
A May I continue?
Q Certainly,
A Nevertheless, I will waive that privilege;

but I want it set forth on the record that I am aware 
of the fact that it is privileged. I voted no,

Q Believing it privileged, Doctor, do you also 
believe that a physician on the staff need not give any 
reason for his vote?

A Restate your question.
Q Do you believe a physician on the staff need 

tell the reasons he voted for or against a man?
A Not necessarily. I feel that he should have

reasons, though. Does that answer your question?
Q Partially, Doctor, thank you. But you believe

it is his privilege, if he wishes to exercise it, not 
to reveal those reasons?

A I waived that privilege.
Q You believe the privilege exists?
A I do.
Q So other physicians might have voted for or 

against Dr. Eaton for any reason that they thought
sufficient?



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A
Q
A
Q

procedure
A
Q

I, of course, cannot answer for them.
Doesn't that possibility occur to you?
It has not.
You don't think that's possible under the 
followed by the medical staff?
I don't feel that it's germane to my voting. 
What was your reason for voting against Dr.

Eaton?
A Purely on a surgical basis.
Q What surgical basis?
A I did not feel that he was qualified under 

the existing regulations to perform major surgery at 
James Walker Memorial Hospital.

Q What particular existing regulations?
A Since 1953 there has been in effect a regulation 

that applicants for the staff must be Board certified 
or Board qualified or qualified by the American College 
of Surgeons or a member.

Q Are there men on the staff now who do not 
meet those requirements?

A Do you mean are there men who do major
surgery?

Q That's correct.
A My understanding is that there are; but their 

privileges antedated this regulation being put into effect.



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Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County 
Medical Society?

A Yes, sir.
Q Are you aware that for many years that 

society had a by-law restricting membership to whites 
only?

A I have never read the regulation. I have heard 
it discussed.

Q Are you aware that until recently membership 
in the society was a prerequisite to membership on the 
James Walker Memorial staff?

A I was aware that that regulation had existed, 
because of my own application,

Q Were you aware that until several years ago 
the James Walker staff had an all-white by-law?

A I was not aware of that.
Q But you are aware of the medical society 

by-law?
A Yes —  well, under oath I'm not absolutely 

aware of the fact that it existed, but it was my 
impression that it did exist.

Q So it's true that Dr. Eaton was ineligible 
for membership in the society as long as that by-law 
existed; correct?

A If such by-law did exist.



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Q That would be correct; he would be ineligible?
A Predicated upon its existence.
Q And he, then, would have been ineligible for 

membership on the staff at James Walker?
A Again, predicated upon its existence.
Q Dr. Eaton, then, could not have been a member 

of the staff at James Walker at the time these other 
physicians who do major surgery and are not Board certified 
or whatever the requirement is - gained admittance to 
the staff?

A Presumably so. I was not a resident of 
Wilmington at that time.

Q But that’s good enough reason for you to vote 
against Dr. Eaton's application?

A That is not what I said.
Q Would you restate what you said?
A I stated my reason for voting against his 

application, previously.
Q Sir?
A I have previously stated the reason for my 

voting against his application.
Q Do you think that these other physicians who 

do major surgery and don't have these educational re­
quirements, which you are talking about, should be removed 
from the staff of James Walker?



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A Not necessarily.
Q What do you mean by "not necessarily"?
A To the best of my knowledge, with no copy 

of the constitution of James Walker before me, there is 
to the best of my knowledge a so-called "grandfather 
clause" which does exist.

Q In the favor of these physicians?
A Not in their favor.
Q Permitting them to---
A Permitting them to continue their practice 

a8 they have,
Q You don't think that this regulation would 

cover the case of a physician who, while he practiced 
in Wilmington prior to 1953# was not permitted to apply 
for staff membership?

A I have no knowledge of that.
Q Doctor, if a physician is placed on the staff 

at James Walker and then is shown to be deficient in 
any respect, may his staff privileges be restricted or 
suspended in any way?

A To the best of my knowledge they have been in 
the past.

Q In other words, a man whose surgery was not 
up to standards would be told that he could no longer use 
the operating facilities?



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A In theory that is true. I know of no surgeons 
who have exceeded their competency.

Q But other physicians on the staff have had 
their privileges suspended or restricted in some way?

A To the best of my knowledge.
Q You don't know of a surgeon on the staff who —  

I didn't get your phrase. Would you please repeat it?
"No surgeon on the staff who has . . . "  Would you com­
plete that sentence?

A She (indicating reporter) may repeat it, if 
she will, please.

A (Read by Reporter) "In theory that is true. I 
know of no surgeons who have exceeded their competency."

Q Does that statement apply to all of those 
men who are permitted to do surgery at James Walker?

A Now, I am not intimately acquainted with all 
the surgery that is done at James Walker Hospital.

Q Do you know most of the surgeons?
A Yes, I do.
Q You know most of those who do surgery?
A Yes, I do.
Q Isn't it true that a Dr. Lounsbury's surgical 

privileges were restricted a few years ago?
A Not to the best of my knowledge. I have no

recollection of that



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Q Do you know how many years Dr. Eaton has 
practiced in Wilmington?

A I do not.
Q Do you know what his position is at the 

Community Hospital?
A Do I know what?
Q What Dr. Eaton's official position is at the 

Community Hospital.
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know how many years he has practiced 

general surgery?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you know how many Negro physicians there 

are in this community?
A Five?
Q Isn't it true that with one or two exceptions

most every white physician in this community has been
or is now on the staff of James Walker?

A To the best of my knowledge. There are those 
who are not.

Q There are those who are not on the staff?
A Yes.
Q Or who have not been on the staff?
A Now, I cannot answer as to whether--
Q How many men are there in the community who



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you know are not on the staff now and who have never been 
on the staff?

A Well, I can only designate several who are 
not presently on the staff. Whether or not they have 
been in the past, I do not know.

Q Generally, though, most every white physician
in the community is on the staff?

A As a generality.
Q Are you in favor of the integration of the 

county medical society?
A I am.
Q Are you in favor of the integration of the 

schools of this community?
MR. HOGUE: Objection.

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Biat objection is for the record, Doctor.
A I object. I do not see the connection between 

hospitals and schools.
Q Are you refusing to answer that question?
A No, air. But I am objecting also in the 

absence of a legal officer.
Q Your objection is noted in the record and 

at the appropriate time the Judge will consider it.
But under the rules, a3 I understand them - you may talk 
to Mr, Hogue if you wish to get his understanding - you



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are to answer all questions subject to these objections 
which appear in the record.

A I am advised that in essence I need answer 
nothing in the absence of an officer of the court. But 
I will answer.

MR. HOGUE: Since Mr. Meltsner has
stated his theory of the law, my theory is 
that if the witness wishes to claim privilege, 
he may refuse to answer any question? and it 
is Incumbent upon the person taking the 
deposition or using the deposition to petition 
the proper legal officer of the court to obtain 
an order requiring him to answer, if counsel 
so desires to attain such.

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Doctor, will you please answer the question?
A Restate the question, please.
Q Are you in favor of the integration of the 

schools of this county?
A In essence.

MR. HOGUE: I repeat my objection.
A (Continuing) And I will repeat my objection, 

but I will answer, "in essence”, period.
Q Your answer is: "In essence"?
A Yes, sir.



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Q In essence what?
A That is my answer.
Q Could you elaborate somewhat on that phrase?

I don't understand it.
A I have answered your question.
Q I am asking another question now, sir.
A All right, sir.
Q Could you elaborate on what you mean by the 

phrase "in essence"?
A This embarks us upon a long discussion of 

the whole theory of civil rights which I, personally, 
do not intend to enter upon at this time.

Q You were aware of Dr, Eaton's civil rights 
activity, were you not?

A Yes, sir, by the papers.
Q Doctor, you have stated, I believe, that your 

reason for opposing Dr. Eaton's application to the 
staff was your evaluation of his surgical credentials; 
is that correct?

A That is a paraphrase.
Q Would you have opposed Dr. Eaton if he had 

applied Just for general practice for the staff?
A I would not.
Q What makes you think that Dr. Eaton had 

applied for surgical privileges?



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A What makes me think that he had?
Q Yes.
A Because he did.
Q Your understanding of his application is that 

he applied for surgical privileges at the hospital?
A Yes, sir.
Q Your understanding is that he did not intend 

to use the hospital for general practice, but for 
surgery?

A My understanding is that he applied for both —  

on the same application.
Q Are you associated in your practice with 

any other physician here in the community?
A I am associated, but I have no partner or 

legal association. I presume that is to what you refer.
Q Do you share an office?
A I do not.

MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUEl
Q Doctor, the standards which you applied in 

casting your vote with respect to Dr. Eaton's application 
are the same standards you apply with respect to any white



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doctor or colored doctor, aren't they?
MR. MELTSNER: Objection.

A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you are qualified by the American 

Board of Surgery; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you meet this requirement of the medical 

staff by-laws?
A I do.
Q Doctor, isn't it true that three Negro physicians 

have been placed on the staff of the hospital since the 
Judgment in the suit which was pending in federal court?

A That is my understanding.
Q And two of them, I believe, are presently

practicing at the hospital?
A That is my understanding.
Q Did any member of the Board of Managers of the 

hospital or did Mr. Martin, the executive director of 
the hospital, attempt to influence your vote in this 
matter in any way?

A No one did.
MR. HOGUE: No further questions.



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REDIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Doctor, did you oppose the applications of 

these other Negro physicians?
MR. HOGUE: I object to this. TOis is

not before the court in this hearing. They are 
on the staff.

A My command was to appear at this hearing in 
behalf of Dr. Hubert A. Eaton, et a l , plaintiffs, not 
on behalf of any other physician.

MR. MELTSNER: Would you please read the
question?

THE WITNESS: That was ray answer.
A (Read by Reporter) "Doctor, did you oppose 

the applications of these other Negro physicians?"
MR. HOGUE: I object.
TOE REPORTER: That is the question you are

to answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Do you refuse to answer that question?
A I answered your question. I answered your 

question with a statement.
MR. HOGUE: He asked you the same



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(previously?) 
privilege, and you

MR. MELTSNER: 
again. The doctor 
his answer was.

said "Yes,” I thought.
Will you read the question 
doesn't seem to know what

THE WITNESS: I know what my answer was,
sir.

Q (Read by Reporter) "Doctor, did you oppose the 
applications of these other Negro physicians?"

A And the next was, "I object," from Mr. Hogue. 
And then I made a statement, and I quoted from my 
command, my subpoena, and that was the answer.
BY MR. MELTSNER:

Q Ihat's your only answer to the question? Are 
you claiming some privilege here?

A No, sir. I have been advised that it is my 
privilege to refuse to answer---

Q On what grounds?
A --- since this is privileged communication.

However, - and I want this to be stated as a part of the 
record and set forth thereon - I will waive that privilege 
and answer this question. I voted for the other 
physicians in question in the affirmative.

Q Why did you vote for them and against Dr,
Eaton?

A I did not vote for them against Dr. Eaton



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Q "And" against Dr. Eaton.
A I voted for them for the reasons that I have 

previously set forth. I did feel that they were qualified 
under the existing regulations to practice their chosen 
field.

Q You thinlc they had met the educational re­
quirements of this by-law to practice surgery at James 
Walker?

A Only one, as I recall, had made an application 
to practice a surgical specialty, and to the best of my 
knowledge he has either passed the American Board of 
Ophthalmology or is eligible.

Q You are not aware that Dr. Roane is a practicing 
surgeon?

A l*m not aware of the fact that he is practicing 
major surgery at James Walker.

Q Are you aware that he has practiced major 
surgery at Community Hospital?

A My understanding 1b that he is an obstetrician,
I personally do not know Dr, Roane,

Q Dr. Roane is now on the staff of James Walker 
and can use its operating facilities, though, however; 
isn't that correct?

A I do not believe that he has privilege to do 
major surgery at James Walker.



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Q Do you think he applied for something different 
than Dr. Eaton applied?

A I have no opinion.
Q Let me restate that. Do you think---
A I understood your statement, sir.
q  Would you repeat your answer, kindly, then?
A I can't remember now what I said.
Q Then why don't we take it again. Do you think 

that Dr. Roane and Dr. Eaton were applying for the same 
thing?

A My impression is that Dr. Roane was applying 
for obstetrical privileges, Dr. Eaton for general practice 
and general surgery.

Q With indications that if Dr. Eaton were just 
applying for general practice, you would support his 
application?

A I have answered that question. Yes, sir.
Q You have indicated that to Dr, Eaton?
A To you.
Q Did you ever inform Dr. Eaton prior to this 

time---
A I have had no discussion with Dr. Eaton.
Q Your answer, then, is no?
A No, I have not discussed it with Dr. Eaton.
Q Now, do you believe that Dr. Eaton should be



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placed on the staff of the new hospital?
A I don't know what the new hospital regulations 

are, sir; but 1 feel that he should,In a capacity 
commensurate with his qualifications.

Q Isn't It possible that a maun can be given such 
a capacity on any hospital staff?

A I don't understand your question.
Q Isn't it possible that a man can be given a 

capacity commensurate with his qualifications on any 
hospital staff?

A If that Is not true, then the various 
licensing boards in America are suffering from gross 
disillusion.

Q Now, these men who practice general surgery 
at James Walker under the grandfather clause - do you 
feel the same way about them in the new hospital?

A That they should be allowed privileges?
Q Ihat'a correct.
A I think that is up to the new Board of 

Managers! I will have no vote. I, myself, must apply.
Q If you have a vote, will you oppose their 

membership on the staff?
A That is hypothetical.
Q I'm asking you a hypothetical question, sir.

If you have a vote, will you oppose their admission to the



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courtesy staff?
A I have no opinion to a hypothetical question,
Q Are you aware that the Community Hospital is 

going to close when the new hospital is completed?
A I am not aware of the fact that it will 

close, I am aware of the fact that that is the intention,
Q Do you think that the credentials committee 

which passed Dr, Eaton’s application was aware of the 
by-laws of the hospital?

A Presumably so.
Q How do you explain your not following what 

the credentials committee recommended then?
A I feel that they were in error. May I continue?
Q Please do.
A I feel that any man in this era at this time 

should be trained prior to doing major surgery.
Q Regardless of race?
A Regardless of race, color, creed, religion,

any other factor,
Q You would support restriction of the privileges 

of the white physicians on the staff at James Walker who 
do not have these educational qualifications?

A I have stated that publicly before. I feel 
that any man who does major surgery should be a trained 
surgeon.



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Q And so the by-laws of the hospital In your 
opinion are Incompetent?

A The by-law of the hospital was made Just prior 
to my arrival.

Q You disagree with it?
I beg your pardon?
You disagree with it?
I disagree with it in part.

MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing el3e.
MR. HOGUE: No further questions.

Signature of Witness:

A
Q
A

VXVvi. vs.



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

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D R . R. B E R T R A M  W I L L I A M S  J R ., having 
been duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Doctor, would you kindly state your full name 

and medical specialty, please.
A R. Bertram Williams Jr., and I practice general 

and thoracic surgery.
Q How long have you been practicing in Wilming­

ton?
A Since 1951*
Q Have you been on the staff of James Walker 

Hospital since that time?
A Yes, the staff in some form.
Q Are you on the staff ofthe Community Hospital?
A I think I am a consultant over at Community;

I am not on the attending staff.
Q In other words, you haven't been too active

at Community Hospital?
A Kiat's correct.
Q Have you ever observed Dr. Hubert Eaton perform 

surgery?
A No



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Q Have you ever made any attempt to study the 
charts of operations done by Dr. Eaton?

A No.
Q In December of 1964 and again in February of 

1965 did you receive a ballot as a member of the medical 
staff at James Walker with reference to Dr. Eaton*s 
application for staff privileges?

A I received the ballotsj I'm not sure of the
dates.

Q It would seem to be about that time to your 
recollection?

A Approximately.
Q What did you do with those ballots?
A I voted and mailed them back in.
Q You returned both of them?
A I think I did.
Q
A

you how I 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q

How did you vote on the first occasion?
That was a secret ballot, and I decline to tell 

voted.
You decline to answer that question?
Yes.
How did you vote on the second ballot?
I make the same answer.
You decline to answer that question?

A Yes



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Q Is it your position that you do not have to
divulge the reasons you voted?

A I don't mind telling you my general feeling. 
It's Just that I don't think you should ask me how I 
voted on a secret ballot.

Q Your position is you don't have to divulge how
you votedj is that correct?

A True.
Q I would presume, then, that it is also your

position that you don't have to tell me why you voted as 
you voted?

A No; I will tell you that.
Q Don't you think you are going to reveal to me

how you voted?
A Yes.
Q

tions?
So you are now agreeing to answer these ques-

A No.
Q I want you to tell me, first, whether you were

aware that the credentials committee of the hospital had 
acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application?

A Yes.
Q

for?
What did you believe Dr. Eaton was applying

A It was my impression that he was applying for



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the courtesy staff at the hospital.
Q Does everyone on this courtesy staff perform 

surgery?
A No.
Q Does everyone on this courtesy staff perform 

major surgery?
A Not to my knowledge, no,
Q Are there men at James Walker Hospital who 

perform major surgery who have not had four years of 
postgraduate education?

A It is my impression that there are.
Q Well now, I believe you stated that you would

tell me the reason you voted the way you did} is that 
correct?

A I will answer any question that is reasonable
except the one that I declined to answer.

Q Well, let me get this straight. You feel 
that you can answer it up to a point, but you are going 
to decide how you can answer it} is that it?

A No, I just feel that the secret ballot, how 
I voted, should be my own business. Now, any other 
matter pertaining to that I will be glad to answer to 
the best of my knowledge.

Q But if what you say is correct, can a man be 
denied staff membership for any subjective reason any



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member of the staff believes appropriate?
A It is my impression that the purpose of the 

ballot is to get the general consensus of the feeling 
of the staff members.

Q Well, that's true of a fraternity election too, 
sir: the vote represents the consensus, but what goes into 
the vote can be any subjective consideration which appeals 
to the people who are voting. Isn't that correct, and 
isn't that the way it is here?

A You are asking me personally. My personal 
feeling is that they should have a good reason to vote 
in the way they vote.

Q But there is no way of knowing whether they 
have a good reason, is there?

MR. HOGUE: I'll object to that question.
"Ihey." I don't know who ''they” is. I thought 
we were talking about this man's reason.

MR. MELTSNER: I will withdraw that ques­
tion.

Q If it'8 a secret ballot and if the persons 
voting do not divulge fully their reasons for voting, 
then the man being voted upon will never know, will he, 
the reason that went into his denial of staff membership?

MR. HOGUE: I would like to object to that
question on the ground that, one, it is a



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hypothetical question and this man couldn't 
possibly answer it other than pure speculation 
and, No. 2, it is argumentative,

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q You don't believe you have to tell me fully 

the reason you voted the v;ay you voted} isn't that 
correct?

A You haven't asked me that question to my 
knowledge.

Q You have indicated to me that you don't feel 
you have to tell me. Have you Indicated that to me?

A How I voted.
Q Why don't you tell me the reasons you voted 

the way you voted, then?
A One reason was that I feel that Dr. Eaton 

has not shown sufficient evidence to me that his primary 
interests are the medical hel p -to^^his community.

Q is this the primary reason?
A That's one of the major reasons.
q  What are the other reasons, the minor reasons?
A That's the major reason.
Q You will rest on that one?
A Well, I think that's the major one.
Q Does this have to do with the building of the

new hospital?



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A To a great extent, yea, sir.
Q You were on opposite aides of the fence over 

that issue?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was your position?
A Well, it was my feeling that the community 

was in bad need of this new institution.
Q And you don't think that honest men could 

reasonably differ over this?
I

A From a medical standpoint, no.
Q lhere were two bond issue votes, weren't there, 

over this new hospital?
A Yes.
Q What was the result of the first one?
A It failed.
Q And the second time?
A It passed.
Q By a large margin or a small margin?
A Which time?
Q The second time.
A As I recall, it was a substantial margin, but 

I'm not sure Just how large it was.
Q Are you aware that many persons in the Negro 

community here were afraid that they would be treated 
badly at this new hospital?



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A No, I'm not aware of that.
Q You are totally unaware of any position taken

by the Negro physicians or other members of the Negro 
community against the bond Issue on this ground?

A I'm not certain what their grounds were for 
opposing the issue.

Q But you know they were against it?
A Yes.
Q And that's sufficient reason for voting against 

Dr. Eaton?
A I think that is a reason for having the feeling 

that I do.
Q Did you also oppose Dr. Roane?
A No.
Q Was Dr. Roane opposed to the new hospital?
A I'm not certain how he stood on the new

hospital.
Q
A
Q

had known 
A 
Q 
A 
Q

But you are certain that Dr. Eaton was?
Yes.
Would you have voted against Dr. Roane if you 
for certain that he was against the new hospital? 
I'm not certain how I would have voted.
Did you vote against Dr. Wheeler?
No.
Did you vote against Dr. Gray?



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A No.
Q Now, Dr, Gray was opposed to the new hospital, 

wasn't he?
A I'm not certain.
q  Do you think there is a reasonable possibility 

that he was opposed to the new hospital?
A Well, I said I'm not certain.
Q Was there opposition to the new hospital in 

the Negro community?
A I am under the impression that there was.
Q Doctor, where does a surgeon earn most of 

his living?
A Most of their living, to my knowledge, is earned 

in the operating room.
Q Would you oppose Dr, Eaton's admission to the 

staff of this new hospital?
A Ihe new hospital?
Q Yes, sir.
A It is my impression that before the bond issue 

was voted upon, that point was cleared: that the general 
work that was being done by the individual doctors, and 
their privileges, would carry over into the new hospital. 
And that is my feeling at the present time.

Q You would support that?
A Yes.



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Q That Dr. Eaton is medically competent to be
on the staff of a modern hospital?

A You will possibly have to define "a modern
hospital" for me.

Q Well, I presume the new hospital is going to 
be an ultramodern facility Judging from a news broad­
cast I heard last evening, and I Just thought that was 
a shorthand way of describing it. It's going to have all 
the modern facilities for surgeons, isn't it?

A I hope it does,
Q And Dr. Eaton would be able to practice 

there?
A Now, I'm not deciding who is to practice there; 

I have to apply, myself.
Q But your present feeling is that you support 

the agreement which will permit him to practice there?
A That's my feeling, yes.
Q You know the James Walker Hospital is a public 

hospital?
A I believe that's the way the court ruled at 

this last trial; however, I'm not certain on that point.
Q Do you think you have a right at a public 

hospital to deny a man staff membership because he 
disagrees with you over the building of another hospital? 

A I believe I answered that question initially



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by saying that he has not shown me sufficient evidence 
that he is interested primarily in the medical care of
this community.

Q In other words, opposition to this new hospital 
is, in your view, opposition to the best interest of the 
medical care of this community?

A Very decidedly so, yes, sir.
Q Doctor, are Negro patients still placed in 

the separate wing at James Walker?
A Uiey are placed over the different places in 

the hospital] they are not all in one place.
Q When were they distributed about the hospital

first?
A I'm not certain of that date.
Q Do you think it was after the federal court

order of last August?
MR. HOOUEx Objection. He said he wasn't 

certain.
MR. MELTSNER: He may have some idea.

(To the witness) Would you like the reporter to 
read the question?

Q (Read by reporter) "Do you think it was after 
the federal court order of last August?"

MR. MELTSNER: I Just want your best
recollection.



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A I'm not certain of that date. I think that 
possibly there may have been some before, but the 
majority of it I believe has been since.

Q And would the same be true for the distribution 
of Negro nurses about the hospital?

A I ’m not certain of that.
Q Do you think that this placement of Negro 

patients in one area is to the best interest of the 
people of the community?

A I think that I am very much interested in 
proper medical care being given to anyone; makes no 
difference to me whether they are Negro, Indian, Mexican, 
white - I'm not particularly interested in where they 
are placed; I'm interested in the medical care they 
receive.

Q You don't think that the area where they are 
placed has anything to do with it?

A I don't think that's an important part.
Q Isn't the wing where the Negro patients were 

placed 5 0 yards or so from the main building of the 
hospital?

A No.
Q How far is it?
A TSie NegroeB are placed all over the hospital.
Q Prior to the change in policy I'm talking about,



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Negroes were placed in one wing, were they not?
A You mean ten years ago?
Q I believe you testified before that Negroes 

were only distributed throughout the hospital as patients 
sometime around the order of the federal court last 
August?

A I don't believe that’s correct,
Q Your position is that there never was any 

segregation of patients at James Walker Hospital?
A Define "segregation" for me,
Q Were there large concentrations of Negro 

patients in one area?
A When?
Q Prior to August 1964,
A I think so,
Q When did this large concentration change?
A I'm not certain of the date. I answered that 

question awhile ago.
Q Your best recollection is that it was about 

August 1964, is that correct?
A It is my impression that it was sometime in

•64,
Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County 

Medical Society?
A Yes.



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Are there any Negroes who are members of thatQ
society?

A Not at the present time,
Q Have Negroes ever applied?
A Yes.
Q Have they ever been accepted?
A Not in the New Hanover County Society. It has 

been a good while since they applied.
Q Isn't it true that until recently the society 

had a by-law restricting membership to whites?
A This society was governed by the constitution 

of the State society; it had no choice.
Q Do you know that Dr. Eaton applied in the 

past and was rejected?
A I knew that some applications were made; I'm 

not certain that his was one of them.
Q Do you think the exclusion of Negroes from 

the society was in the best medical interest of the 
persons of this community?

A The activities of the local society are governed 
by the constitution of the State society, and we have to 
follow that constitution.

Q Did you ever make any attempt to amend that 
constitution?

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Q Did you ever make any attempt to desegregate 
the patients and nurses at James Walker Hospital prior 
to August 1964?

A You said "segregate,,?
A Desegregate.
A I have made no effort to segregate or de­

segregate •
Q You just accepted what was?
A My interest was giving medical care to my 

patients and seeing that they were properly cared for 
in the hospital] that’s my major point. I ’m not particular] 
interested in the color; that’s not ray main concern.

Q Do you know any difference in the life 
expectancy of Negro and white Americans here in North 
Carolina?

A No, not for sure.
Q Do you know of any place in the by-laws of 

the hospital where it would permit you or authorize you 
to vote against Dr. 2aton because of his position on 
the new hospital?

A That point is not specifically mentioned in 
the by-laws. There is no reason for that to be in the 
by-laws.

Q I3 there any other document where that point 
would be mentioned that you know of?



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A Not that I know of.
MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUE:
Q Doctor, did any member of the governing board 

of the hospital or its director, Mr. Martin, attempt in 
any way to influence your vote with respect to Dr.
Eaton*8 application?

A No. These are all my personal opinions.
MR. HOGUE: I have no further questions.
MR. MELTSNER: Thank you, Doctor.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

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D R . R O B E R T  W. W I L L I A M S ,  having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Would you state your full name and medical 

specialty, Doctor.
A Robert W. Williams. I am a surgeon, general 

surgeon.
Q How long have you been practicing here in 

Wilmington?
A Since 1953.
Q Have you been on the staff at James Walker all 

that time?
A Yes.
Q Are you on the staff now at Community Hospital?
A No.
Q Have you ever watched Dr. Hubert A. Eaton 

perform surgery?
A I wouldn't say so. I mean I have been by the 

operating room several times when he has been working 
and this sort of thing, but I don't believe I could really 
say I have watched him, no.

Q Oh, you were on the staff at Community Hospital



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at one time?
A Yes.
Q When did you resign from the staff?
A A little over a year ago, I guess; I don't 

remember the date.
Q Why did you resign?
A Because more and more time was being asked of 

me to take care of difficult problems over there; and 
the organization of the hospital seemed to be falling 
more and more apart.

Q Did this responsibility have in part to do 
with the treatment of indigent patients?

A Oh, I guess to a degree, yes.
Q Would you elaborate on what you mean by the 

phrase, "falling apart"?
A Well, I think it's as simple as the fact that 

there were fewer and fewer physicians who were active as 
far as taking care of the patient load in that hospital.

p&LfttCri AfSS
Q Given this small number of patients and 

high patient load, would it have been feasible to open 
a surgical clinic at Community Hospital?

A I don't think so, no, because we didn't have 
any surgeons except me.

Q Did Dr. Eaton hold a position on the staff at
Community Hospital?



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A Yes.
Q What was his position?
A He was a member of the staff.
Q Did he perform surgery at the hospital?
A I presume so.
Q Did you know Dr. Roane?
A Yes.
Q Did he perfom surgery at the hospital?
A I don't think much. He delivered most of the 

babies, and it was a terrible chore for him to try and 
keep up with that.

Q What was his specialty - obstetrics?
A Well, that's what he did most of, I think,

as far as I know. I don't think he was a trained 
obstetrician.

Q Dr. Roane is now on the staff at James Walker, 
isn't he?

A I think so.
Q Did you receive ballots in February of 1965 

and December of 1964 to vote on Dr. Eaton's application 
for staff membership at James Walker?

A I think those were the dates.
Q Did you return both of these ballots?
A No.
Q Did you keep both of them?



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A No.
Q, What did you do with the first one?
A I don't remember.
Q What did you do with the second one?
A I sent it back. I replied on it.
Q Doctor, would you repeat your last answer?
A I sent it back or turned it in.
Q You don’t recall what you did the first time ?
A No, I don't. Well, I know that I didn't send

the ballot in.
Q Well, isn't that counted as an affirmative

vote?
A Yes.
Q What did you mark on your second ballot?
A I said "No."
Q What made you change your mind?
A lhe fact that we had had this activity with 

regard to the hospital setup in Wilmington and the fact 
that I had felt that during ray time at Community Hospital 
on several occasions over the period of years that I had 
been "put upon" so to speak.

Q By the staff at Community?
A Yes.
q  You had been overworked, is that it?
A Well, I'm sure in your business people can at



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times impose upon your time, and at times it is difficult 
for you to avoid this imposition.

Q How would Dr. Eaton have imposed upon you?
A Well, I don't know that he did any more than 

anybody else, but there were occasions when there were
patients over there which I did not feel fell within my
Dg tf injTt*meed or that I was not strictly responsible for, and yet 
I wound up having to take care of them.

Q Was there any particular way in which Dr.
Eaton was a burden to you?

A Oh, I can't say specifically "he," but I had 
.the* residents who jaae there at times come to me and say,
"Here's a patient who needs so and so and so and so

"Tfe—  „ d)f\sdone, and I can't get pother doctor*' . . .  who
supposedly looking after this patient ”. . .  to do any­
thing about it. What will I do?"

Q This was a general problem?
A Often. I think it was; I don't think it was a 

specific one. What I mean I can't say it was always 
Dr. Eaton's patient.

q  This problem existed before December of 
1964, I take it?

A Oh, yes, I think it wa3 a gradual thing,
sure.

Q When were you first placed on the staff of



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Community Hospital?
A Well, when you say "on the staff," when I first 

came here and asked to be put on the staff in surgery,
I was advised that I could come over there and work if 
I wanted to as a member of the courtesy staff but that 
I would not be given any privileges in surgery or not 
be given specific privileges in surgery which is the only 
field I felt competent to work in.

Q You were placed on the courtesy staff?
A Yes.
Q This is true also at James Walker, isn't it?

A man can be on the courtesy staff and not have certain 
other privileges?

A Well, the organization of the two hospitals 
is different, and both of them have changed from time to 
time during the time I have been here.

Q Well, for example, there are men on the 
courtesy staff at James Walker who do not perform surgery; 
isn't that true?

A Yes. There are also ones who do.
Q Do you recall the application of Dr. Roane 

for staff privileges at James Walker?
A Well, I recall that he made application within 

the last year or so.
Q Did you vote for him?



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A I don't remember.
Q Well, wouldn't you have opposed him for the 

same reason you voted against Dr. Eaton the second time?
A I think I would have, yes.
Q How about Dr. Gray - do you remember voting on 

his application?
A No, I don't. I'm pretty sure that I did not 

send it back.
Q How about Dr. Wheeler?
A I didn't send his in either.
Q Forgive me for asking you again, but when did 

you resign from the staff of Community?
A I don't remember the exact date, but I guess 

it was about a year ago.
Q About last summer?
A Yes, last summer is my recollection.
Q As I understand your testimony, you did not 

vote In February against Dr. Eaton because of anything to 
do with his medical competence but because of a dispute 
of seme kind or, more precisely, duties which were given 
to you when you were at the Community Hospital; is that 
a correct statement of it?

A Well, I think that's part of it, sure. I mean 
these things are distasteful to me.

Q They are distasteful to all of us, sir. I am



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just trying to get out whether or not you are going to 
state here that you think Dr. Eaton is not a competent 
physician.

A Well now, I think the crux of this matter 
comes into the rather detailed or what-have-you business 
of the classification of physicians. I don't know 
whether in the legal profession you all talk about tax 
lawyers and some other kind of lawyer or some other kind 
of thing in the 3ame vein that we divide up physicians, 
but within the medical profession we have a fair amount 
of distinction between somebody who is trained to do 
one thing and trained to do another; and I think, to my 
knowledge, Dr. Eaton is a perfectly licensed physician 
and able to do all ordinary treatment, but I wouldn't 
consider him a trained surgeon.

Q He has had a long career as a surgeon, hasn't
he?

A I don't know.
Q You don't know how long he has practiced as a 

surgeon?
A I don't know how long he has practiced at all. 

I know he has been here and was in practice when I came 
here.

Q Would it mean anything to you if I told you 
he has practiced as a surgeon for over twenty years?



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Would that be some training?
A No, I don't think it has anything to do with 

training by the standards we use today.
Q What standards are you talking about?
A I'm talking about the American Board certifica­

tion in various fields; I'm talking about graduate 
residencies; I'm talking about training of a specific 
nature for which a record is kept of when a man does 
this and what his performance is during that time.

Q Now, aren't there men on the James Walker 
staff who don't meet those standards?

A Oh, yes.
Q Men who do perform major surgery?
A Yes, I guess they do perform some major

A H'c.'f'
surgery, yes; I think/jlittle, but I think they do^perform
oeme^ . ^  +}a j a ^  «.

Q So there are men on the staff who don't meet 
these qualifications. Would it be correct for me to say 
that with few exceptions most of the white physicians 
in Wilmington are on the staff at James Walker?

A I don't know Just how many right now. You say 
"most"? Surely more than half, yes, but I don't know 
the exact number, and there are a few people I don't 
know -whlre their status ie right now.

q  Do you have any idea hov; many physicians have



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been denied staff membership at James Walker since 1945?
A You mean Just courtesy staff membership, or 

are you talking about denied privileges---?
Q What is your understanding of what Dr. Eaton 

applied for? Didn't he apply for the courtesy staff?
A Yes, but with privileges to do surgery.
Q So if he applied for the courtesy staff of 

the hospital, he would not have been on the attending 
staff?

A Not Initially.
Q Would it surprise you if I told you that only 

two physicians have had their applications for the 
courtesy staff refused since 1945?

A I don't know. I mean since I have been here,
I know of one, that's all.

Q You are aware that the credentials committee 
acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application?

A Yes, I was on the credentials committee at that
time.

Q What did the credentials committee's approval 
of Dr. Eaton's application mean to you?

A Uie same thing it means with anybody: that he 
is a licensed physician in the community, and that his 
medical school is one that one knows of, and that we have 
some reasonable idea that they haven't got a false



275

diploma or something else of this sort on their hands, 
and that the physician is of reasonably good moral and 
ethical character as far as we know.

Q That's all it means?
A That's all that I understand that it's 

supposed to perform.
Q Who else was on the credentials committee?
A Dr. O'Quinn, I believe, and I think Dr. 

Warshauer at that time.
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Q Could it have been Dr. McKay rather than Dr. 
Warshauer?

A It could have, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Q Doesn't Dr. Warshauer serve as an ex-officio 

member of that committee?
A At the present time or--- ? I don't know.
Q Aside from the by-laws of the hospital staff,

would you direct me to any other document where the 
standards for staff membership are set forth?

A I don't think that Just for membership on the 
staff there are any, no. Now, there has been a great 
deal of, oh, over the years attempts by a good many of 
us to try to departmentalize James Walker Hospital and 
to set up standards for the individual departments.

Q These standards are written down nowhere,

25 though, are they?



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A They have not all been, at least not all the 
ones that I have talked about*

Q They are specialty staff rules, is that 
correct?

A Right.
q  i»m talking now about general medical staff.
A Well, you see, there Is no general medical 

staff. That’s the point I am trying to make.
Q I'm talking now about the courtesy staff.
A One must apply to a department. In other 

words, one can apply and one has to apply as a courtesy 
member first. You cannot apply immediately to be a 
member of the attending staff. We have a provision for 
a period of time as a courtesy staff member. When I 
came to town, for instance, I applied for the courtesy 
staff of James Walker Hospital; I applied in surgery;
I asked for privileges to do surgery, not to treat 
children, not to do obstetrics, not to do anything else; 
and I was granted these privileges as a courtesy 3taff 
member. Now, this put certain limitations upon me which, 
for instance, an attending surgeon did not have upon 
him.

q  Are you testifying that there are no general 
practitioners on the staff of James Walker?

A No, no. There are some people in general



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practice,
Q They are not in any specialty?
A Ye a,*/they are assigned to the Department of

Internal Medicine for their work or their activity, 
although there is a department provided for in general 
practice.

Q Now, are there any specific standards, written 
standards,for the surgical staff?

A Yes.
Q And these are not in the by-laws' rules and 

regulations?
A I think they are.
Q Anything besides what is in there?
A No, I don't think there are any others 

besides those, but there are some in there.
Q Did you attend the medical staff meeting which

discussed Dr. Eaton's application in December of 1964?
A No.
Q Did you discuss Dr. Eaton's application with

other members of the staff?
A You mean prior to when? I discussed it with 

members of the credentials committee when he was under an 
indictment here.

Q What was the nature of that discussion?
A Well, simply the fact that there had been a



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good deal of public knowledge that he was under a 
criminal Indictment, and I as a member of the credentials 
committee felt that this was sufficient at that time 
so that he should not be considered for a member of our 
staff.

Q You mean that his application be rejected?
A Yes. And the credentials committee in our 

discussions simply said, "Well, do we really know that 
he is under this indictment?" And they asked me to write 
to the court and find out whether this was so.

Q And you did that?
A Yes.
Q And what did you learn?
A I learned that he was.
Q And did you report back to the credentials 

committee?
A Yes.
Q What.occurred at that time?
A Hie application was withdrawn or withheld - 

I don't know what you call it - until this matter was 
straightened up.

Q Did you again write to the court in order to 
determine the manner in which this matter was straightened 
up?

A I didn't write to them, no. But I did telephone



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the clerk of that court and say, "Was this completed?"
And they said, "Yes,"

Q Did you inquire the basis upon which it was 
completed?

A Well, Just that the indictment had been dis­
missed,

Q And subsequent to that time what action did 
the committee take?

A Ihey passed the application forward,
Q What was the vote of the committee?
A I don't think there was any vote; I think it 

was passed forward.
Q Was it a consensus of the membership?
A I would say so, yes,
Q So what occurred at this criminal trial was 

not sufficient to cause the committee to withhold Dr,
Eaton's application?

A No, Once this was withdrawn, they felt 
apparently 3ince there had been no particular thing or 
no decision reached jsur anything about it, —  as I understood 
it, the charges were dismissed in some form or other,

Q As far as the committee was concerned and Dr. 
Eaton's application was concerned, he was cleared?

A Yes, of this charge.
Q Are you aware that the Joint Commission on



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Accreditation has recently strongly recommended that 
hospitals consider physicians' experience and their 
proven skill rather than simply going by their educational 
background?

A No, I can't say I am. I have had an awful 
lot of communication with them, but I can't say that 
I'm familiar with that recommendation.

MR. MELTSNER: 'Blank you. lhat is all.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HOGUEt
Q Doctor, would you state whether or not any 

member of the Board of Managers of the hospital or its 
director, Mr. Martin, or any other officer or employee 
of the hospital tried in any way to influence your vote 
with respect to Dr. Eaton's application?

A Ihey never discussed my vote about anybody 
with me.

Q Isn't it true that there have been three other 
Negro doctors admitted to the staff of the hospital?

A (mat's my understanding at the moment, yes.
q  Dr. Roane and Dr, Wheeler and the late Dr.

Gray.
A That's my understanding.



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MR. HOGUE: I have no further questions.

REDIRE CT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Just a very few questions, Doctor. You told 

me that you voted for Dr. Roane, Dr. Gray, Dr. Wheeler, 
and for Dr. Eaton the' first time, as I recall. But in 
February you returned a ballot marked against him. What 
happened between the December ballot and the February 
ballot ?

A Well, I got sick of this business.
Q Sick of what business?
A Thi3 repeated trying to get on this staff, 

and this and that and the other thing; arguing about 
political matters, and everybody wondering about how they 
were going to do this and how they were going to do that, 
instead of looking after the patients.

q  Were you resentful that the board had sent 
the application back for another vote?

A I was resentful of the fact that the United 
States Court and the board and everybody else were 
delving into these things which I thought any upstanding 
group of doctors ought to be able to manage on their
own.



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Q And that's the reason you changed your vote?
A Yes.
Q, Would It surprise you if I told you that many 

of your colleagues on the staff have cited as their 
reason for voting against Dr. Eaton his opposition to 
the new hospital?

MR. HOGUE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What do I do now?
MR. MELTSNER: Well, that objection is for

the record. Would you like the reporter to 
read the question?

A No, it wouldn't surprise me.
Q That's politics, isn't it?
A Sure.
Q Is that what you think ought to enter into 

deciding whether or not a man gets on the medical staff?
A No; but it does.
Q And it did on Dr. Eaton's application, didn't

it?
i

A Well, I don't know whether that was the sole 
thing on his application or not. But I'm sure if you go 
around the country and go to hospital staffs, you will 
find that many of them have all sorts of requirements 
here and there; I have seen them change in these hospitals 
in the time I have been here.



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Q Well, la there any requirement you know of 
that you have to agree to the building of a new hospital 
in a community, when you are against it, to get on a 
medical staff?

MR. HOGUE: Objection.
A Well, do you refer Just to our hospital or do 

you refer to other instances? I have heard of many 
instances when this is the absolute requirement for some­
one to get on the staff, yes.

Q Are you aware that James Walker is a public 
hospital?

A No. I thought it was a private hospital.
Q You still think it's a private hospital?
A Basically; it’s chartered private as far as I 

know, and I know the only person that has anything to do 
with it is the Board of Managers.

Q Do you think a public hospital should be 
permitted to deny staff membership because of politics?

A Do I think it should?
Q Yes.
A Oh, no. I think it's an academic matter. It 

happens.
Q It happens. But you would be opposed to it 

if you could do something about it, wouldn't you?
A Yes.



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MR. MELTSNER: Thank you, Doctor. That
is all.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

P age L ine



D R . H O O P E R  D. J O H N S O N ,  having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR, MELTSNER:
Q Would you state your name and medical 

specialty, please.
A Hooper D, Johnson. I specialize in diseases 

of the ear, nose, and throat.
Q How long have you been practicing here in 

Wilmington, Doctor?
A Seven years.
Q Are you on the staff of the James Walker 

Hospital?
A Yes, sir,
Q Have you been on the staff for seven years?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know of any reason why Dr. Hubert Eaton 

should not be a member of the courtesy staff of James 
Walker Hospital?

A What do you mean by that?
Q Let me rephrase the question. Are you aware 

of any reason which you think sufficient which would 
cause Dr. Hubert Eaton from being a member of the courtesy



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staff at Janes Walker Hospital?
A Do you mean any particular category on the 

courtesy staff, or the staff a3 such?
Q The staff as such.
A I think It's required that anyone applying 

for privileges has to request specific privilges, and 
to the best of my ability, in my own personal case, any 
time I have been asked to decide this question, I have 
decided it on the qualifications of the person applying 
and for what they were applying; and if I did not feel 
that this person was qualified, I personally voted that 
he not be accepted, solely on the basis of his qualifica­
tions .

Q Solely on the basis of his qualifications 
now, do you know of any reason why Dr. Eaton should be 
denied membership on the James Walker staff?

A In his particular case it is my opinion that 
he was requesting surgical privileges for which he had 
not received sufficient training.

Q Did you vote against Dr. Eaton’s application?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q On both occasions?
A Yes, sir.
Q On that ground?
A Yes, sir.



Q What educational qualifications do you refer
to?

A The American Board qualifications as 
recommended by the Joint Commission on Accreditation.

Q The American Board of Surgery?
A Yes, sir.
Q What are those qualifications?
A They are set up for a certain approved 

resident training that he has not fulfilled.
Q Do you know how long that training period

is?
A As I recall, it's approximately five years.
Q And this is the qualification which he did 

not meet?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are there men on the James Walker staff who 

perform major surgery who have not fulfilled those 
educational qualifications?

A There are no men on there that I voted for 
that are on there. All that are there practicing in 
that manner I have voted against when the occasion 
arose.

q, But there are men on the staff?
A I have not been asked to decide on anyone 

else in that classification.



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Q Were they on the 3taff before you came to 
Wilmington?

A Yes, sir.
Q Are they still on the staff?
A As far as I know sane of them are and sane of 

them are not.
Q Are those that are still on the staff still 

performing surgery at James Walker?
A I have never been asked to Judge their 

qualifications as to whether they could perform.
Q I'm not asking you about their qualifications, 

but whether or not they are still performing surgery at 
James Walker.

A It is not in my power to decide whether they 
should perform surgery or not.

Q Doctor, I'm not asking you whether it is good 
practice, but whether or not it occurs.

A As far as I know they do occasionally perform 
major surgery, yes, sir.

Q Isn't It also generally true that with few 
exceptions most every white physician in Wilmington has 
been or is presently on the staff at James Walker?

A No, 3ir. There are several notable exceptions.
Q How many physicians would you say there are 

in Wilmington, white physicians, who are not now or have



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never been on the staff of James Walker?
A Some of those that are not now, have been at 

one time and resigned because they were not approved for 
some of the privileges they asked for; and I don’t know 
how many there would be in that class.

Q How many in the class of persons who have 
never been on the staff at James Walker?

A At the present time I think they have all left 
town. I don’t think any of those gentlemen are here any 
more.

Q So you are either on the staff of James Walker 
or you are not in town?

A No, sir. You are on the staff of the 
hospital in which you choose to practice if you are 
allowed those privileges. There are several hospitals 
in town, and some of the physicians have elected to 
practice at other hospitals. There are several prominent 
physicians v*ho are not on the staff at James Walker.

Q Yea. But you are now referring to physicians 
who have declined the staff?

A Some have not applied, no, sir.
Q But I would like for you to name for me, if 

you will, any white physicians in Wilmington who have 
never been on the staff at James Walker. Enumerate them 
if you can, please.



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A I don't think that is in the scope of my 
knowledge at this time with the exception of one who is 
now deceased - Dr. Darrow. He was a very prominent 
physician that did not practice. If he was on the 
staff, it was purely in an advisory capacity! I don't 
recall that he ever had patients there.

Q He is the only one you can name?
A He is the only one that I have had personal

association with, yes, sir.
Q Did you also oppose the application of Dr,

Roane?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Did you oppose the application of Dr. 

Wheeler?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q On what grounds?
A That he was not a suitably qualified person 

to be practicing. While his professional qualifications 
I think were adequate, I did not feel that he was 
personally the type person who should be on the staff,

Q This is a moral consideration?
A Yes, sir; and I think the Joint Commission 

recognizes that as a criterion for selection.
Q What was the nature of the consideration?
A I don't believe that 1b related to this



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particular Instance.
Q It*s something to do with his character?
A Yes, sir.
Q But that wasn't the reason you opposed Dr.

Eaton?
A No, sir.
Q As far as you know, Dr. Eaton's character is

good?
A I have had nothing to Indicate otherwise, 

no, sir.
Q What was it that you had to indicate that Dr. 

Wheeler's moral character was not good?
MR. HOGUE: I object to that. If we go

into the character of every doctor on the 
staff, we will be here for the rest of the 
year.

MR. MELTSNER: I'm just Interested In
Dr. Wheeler.

A I think it would be sufficient to say that I 
had personal knowledge of several instances involving 
Dr. Wheeler that I considered objectionable to his 
practice.

Q You had personal knowledge?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Direct relationship with the events?



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A They were directly related, yes, sir. I 
think Dr, Eaton is familiar with the direct relationship.
He smiled. Apparently he recalls the same thing I do.

Q Yet Dr. Wheeler is now on the staff of James
Walker?

A He was opposed by me, but I'm not alone in 
selecting the staff of the hospital, sir.

Q Why do you think he is on the staff at James 
Walker?

A I don't have any knowledge to make that 
statement.

Q Why would you surmise that he is on the staff?
A I don't think that is related to this particular

case.
Q Did you inform other members of the staff at 

James Walker of your objection to Dr. Wheeler?
A Only if I was asked specifically.
Q Were you asked specifically?
A Yes, I was on two occasions that I'm sure of. 

These persons did not have knowledge of this person and 
they were seeking information, and I have done the same 
thing seeking knowledge on other physicians or other 
persons in any elected office.

Q But you didn't come forward with the informa­
tion?



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A No, sir, I did not.
Q Do you know how many years Dr. Eaton has 

practiced surgery in this community?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you know how many years he has been chief 

of the surgical staff at Community Hospital?
A As I recall, there was one year and probably 

two when I was on the staff there that he was the chief 
of surgery.

Q Have you ever observed Dr.Eaton perform 
surgery?

A No, sir, I have not.
Q Have you ever made any attempt to study the 

charts of operations conducted by Dr. Eaton?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q When did you do that?
A When I was the secretary of the staff at 

the Community Hospital.
Q Were Dr. Eaton's charts adequate?
A Yes, sir. As far as I could tell, the material 

contained therein was adequate.
Q So you rest your negative vote solely on the 

absence of a certain amount of education?
A On the amount of formal training.
Q Number of years of formal education?



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A Yea, air.
Q Are you aware that the credential8 committee 

of the hospital passed favorably on Dr. Eaton*a 
application?

A Apparently they would have to pass favorably 
on it or it would not have been presented to the staff.

Q Do you think they were aware of the existence 
of the by-laws of the hospital?

A I have no way to decide that, sir. I was not 
on the committee, and I do not know of anything that 
transpired in their meeting relative to this application.

Q But apparently you did not give great weight 
to the decision of the credentials committee that Dr. 
Eaton’s application was to be approved?

A I don't think that is the purpose of the 
committee, sir. Hiey are not in any way attempting to 
direct that you accept or reject a person. I think 
they merely have a set standard in their own mind, 
and they feel that they fulfill it or they do not. It*s 
a personal opinion as far as I know.

Q You mentioned earlier that you had voted 
solely because of his lack of formal schooling. Do you 
know of any other physicians who voted for this reason?

A No, sir. I have not discussed the personal 
vote of the other physicians with them.



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Q So far as you know, the other physicians could 
have voted for reasons totally unrelated?

A I have no way of knowing why they voted the 
way they did, sir.

Q And they were free to vote any way they 
wished?

A Yes, 3ir, I think that’s the general policy* 
everyone has his own opinion, to vote one way or the 
other in his own mind. To the best of my knowledge 
no one has ever been directed otherwise.

Q Do you think this lack of formal education 
is substantial enough to bar Dr. Eaton from membership 
on the staff of the new hospital?

A It would again depend, as in this case, on 
exactly what he was requesting that he be allowed to do.

Q Did you ever see Dr. Eaton’s application?
A No, sir, I don't believe I did.
Q On what do you base your view as to what he

was seeking?
A We were told at the general staff meeting 

that he had applied for privileges as a general 
practitioner with a special interest in general surgery.

Q Who told you that he was applying?
A I do not recall exactly who made the information

available to me



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Q Isn’t it true that every member of the courtesy 
staff is assigned to a certain specialty?

A He is assigned to the specialty that he 
requests or that he is felt best qualified for. They are 
not assigned indiscriminately.

Q Bit men with varying qualifications are 
assigned to the same specialty staff# isn’t that true?

A Most of these assignments had been made at a 
previous date. It is currently the standard to assign 
a man in the classification in which he is felt to be 
best qualified.

Q But these previous assignments still exist?
A I don’t know that there has been any reason to 

upset any previous assignments.
Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County 

Medical Society?
A Yes# I am.
Q Are you aware that in May of this year the 

society abolished scientific membership?
A No# sir, I'm not.
Q Are you aware of an all-white restriction on 

the membership in the society?
A No, sir, I'm not.
Q Are you aware of an all-white restriction in 

the by-laws of the James Walker Hospital?



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A No, slrj there is none that I know of.
Q Has there ever been one to your knowledge?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Would it affect your Judgment that Dr. Eaton 

should be denied staff membership, if you were informed 
that he had been refused staff membership in the past 
on the basis of race?

A No, sir, it would not affect my Judgment.
Q Would it affect your Judgment if you learned 

that prior to the adoption of these new educational 
standards, Dr. Eaton had been refused admission to the 
medical staff on the basis of race?

A No, sir.
MR. HOGUE: I didn't understand. Did you

say education - educational standards?
MR. MELTSNERi Educational standards.
MR. HOGUE: Would you read the question?

Q (Read by reporter) "Would it affect your
Judgment if you learned that prior to the adoption of 
these new educational standards, Dr, Eaton had been 
refused admission to the medical staff on the basis of 
race?"

MR. HOGUE: I object to that question. I
didn't understand that he had applied before 
1952. That is the basis of my objection.



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MR. MELTSNER: I merely asked if he would
change his view if that were the case.

MR. HOGUE: It's a purely hypothetical
question.

BY MR. MELTS NER:
Q Are you familiar with the Joint Committee on 

Accreditation?
A In certain phases, yes, sir.
q  Are you familiar with the recommendation of 

the committee that In no event should a hospital base 
staff privileges solely on formal training?

A That is simply a recommendation and is not 
binding on either the hospital or the staff.

Q Are you familiar with their recommendation 
that privileges should be based on ability and experience 
and proven skill in the operating room?

A Yes, sir.
Q Wouldn't you think that Dr. Eaton might 

possibly have some of that ability and experience if he 
were a surgeon here for twenty-two years?

A I don't think the length of tenure of the 
occupation would affect that one way or the other. I 
have known - and I'm sure you have - persons of 
long-standing practice in many fields that have improved 
rapidly or have shown no improvement at all over the



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years, and the length of time in service I don’t think is 
related at all to their ability.

Q Bit you have never investigated Dr. Eaton's 
actual ability in the operating room, have you?

A Not specifically; only in generalities, the 
general information contained in his charts and in 
various discussions of his patients and their management 
in certain specific instances as they were brought up 
in various meetings of the staff of Community Hospital.

Q And the basis of your decision to oppose his 
application was the fact that he did not have this four 
or five years of schooling?

A No, sir; that he was not suitably qualified 
for the privileges that he was requesting that he be 
allowed. He made no specific request in there, and it 
was implied, or it was interpreted by me that he would 
request privileges in all phases of general surgery.

Q Would you support him if he only wanted to be 
placed on the courtesy staff?

A Well now, again you have to go back to the 
original discussion where I requested that the courtesy 
staff as such be classified according to a particular 
phase of it. There is nothing anywhere that is set up 
as "courtesy staff privileges"; they must be confined 
to some certain phase of treatment or sane certain phase



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of the privileges of a hospital or of anything as far as 
that goes.

Q Well, there are general practitioners on the 
staff, aren't there?

A Yes, sir. And they have not requested any 
blanket privileges in any particular field. Most of 
them are limited, and their work is supervised.

Q Would you support Dr. Eaton's application if 
he applied to be treated the same way a general 
practitioner is treated?

A Yes, sir, I would.
Q And this educational standard makes the 

difference---
A It does in the--
Q ---considering that he applied for some

surgical privilege?
A Yes, sir. Were he requesting limited privileges 

in certain specific fields or delineating exactly what 
he felt, then that particular Instance would be considered 
separately.

Q He could have requested limited privileges in 
surgery; isn't that correct?

A Yes, sir.
q  Isn't it true that if a man is placed on a 

staff and his work is found not up to par that his



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privileges can be suspended? Isn't that true?
A lftat is not a function of the staff of the 

hospital.
Q Who does it?
A To the best of my knowledge the granting or

the taking of privileges is a function of the Board of 
Managers; and the staff is only requested, as I interpret 
this thing, to give advice as to whether they feel that 
this should be done or they feel this particular action 
should be taken.

Q Now, Doctor, I want to be perfectly clear about
this. I'm talking about a man who applies and he is put 
on a specialty staff and the other members of that 
staff decide that his actual performance is not up to 
the standards of the hospital, can his privileges be 
limited?

A Not by the staff. Only if requested. Hie 
limitation must—

Q I understand they can request such a suspension?
A Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge they 

can request it, but the actual limitation is entirely up 
to the Board of Managers of the hospital.

Q Isn't that also true about admission to the 
staff in the first place?

A As far as I know that is also true about



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admission to the staff in the first place.
MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions.
MR. HOGUE: I have no questions.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

P age L ine

•



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It-M R . R O B E R T  jQr. M A R T I N ,  having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER;
Q Will you state your name, please.
A Robert *€h?ay Martin.
Q What is your ocoupation?
A I'm Director of James Walker Hospital.
Q How long have you held that position?
A Approximately three and one-half years.
Q What was your position before you became

director of the hospital?
A I was Assistant Director of James Walker

Hospital.
Q And how long did you hold that position?
A Approximately two years, a little less than two 

years prior to that•
Q When you were assistant director, what was

the name of the director?
A The name of the director at that time was

Emory N. Grubbs.
Q Would you briefly describe your educational

background for me?



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A I am a college graduate of a four-year college. 
My background in college is in the area of Business 
Administration. I have completed a two-year postgraduate 
course in training for hospital administration; and I 
have had some eleven years in active hospital administra­
tion work.

Q What other hospitals have you worked with?
A I have worked with Rex Hospital in Raleigh, 

North Carolina; I have been on the staff of the North 
Carolina Medical-Care Commission in Raleigh, North 
Carolina, in the capacity of Assistant Hospital Administra 
tive Consultant.

Q What years were you on the staff of the 
Medical-Care Commission?

A 1955 to November of 1956.
Q Isn*t the Commission that governmental body 

which administers the Hill-Burton Act in North Carolina?
A That is correct.
Q What was the name of the college you attended?
A I graduated from Wake Forest College.
Q Where did you take your postgraduate work?
A In Rex Hospital, Raleigh, a hospital that 

conducted this program in hospital administration.
Q Is it a degree program?
A It’s a preceptorship type of program.



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Q In other words, you are certified but no degree
is issued?

A There's no formal Master's Degree. A certificat<
is awarded upon successful completion of this two-year 
postgraduate program. It is a recognized program in 
the field of hospital administration.

Q You said, I believe, that your major In 
college was Business Administration?

A That's right.
Q What are your duties as administrator or directoj 

of the hospital?
A I am the hospital's employed officer to carry 

out the duties of the hospital, to carry out the policies 
of the Board of Managers and to coordinate the activities 
within the hospital to conform with those policies.

Q Do you sit on the Board of Managers?
A No, I have no official position on the board

except to serve as secretary to the Board of Managers.
Q You take the minutes of the meetings of the

board?
A I do take the minutes.
Q Do you have any official position on the 

medical staff of the hospital?
A No.
Q Do you attend its meetings?



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A Generally I do attend Its meetings.
Q You have no vote on medical staff affairs;

Isn’t that correct?
A No, I do not have a vote.
Q Do you make recommendations as to hospital 

policy which are transmitted to the board?
A Sometimes I do.
Q What recommendations have you made this year, 

1965, that you can think of?
A I have recommended many purchases of equipment, 

recommended matters pertaining to finances in the area 
of employees’ salaries. I'm not sure of others.

Q, Have you made any recommendation this year 
concerning the distribution of Negro nurses throughout 
the hospital?

A No.
Q Isn't it true that earlier this year you

received a communication from a former director of this 
hospital telling you that he thought it was in the best 
interest of the hospital for Negro nurses to be dis­
tributed throughout the hospital?

A I don't know.
Q In other words, the former director may have

made such a recommendation to you?
A A former director?



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Q Mr. Grubbs I believe you said his name was.
A Would you repeat your question on that?
Q Did Mr. Grubbs recommend in 1965 that you 

distribute Negro nurses throughout the whole hospital?
A I do not recall his having made any 

recommendations.
Q Of any kind?
A Not of any kind pertaining to this.
Q What is Mr. Grubbs’ official position now as 

best you understand it?
A I understand he has been retained as the 

Director of the New Hanover Memorial Hospital.
Q He is still here in Wilmington?
A Yes.
Q Did you have harmonious relations with him 

when he was your superior?
A I think so.
Q Tell me how soon after the federal court order

of last August Negro patients were moved into the main 
hospital?

A I don’t recall how soon, but I do know that 
there were some Negro patients in the main hospital 
prior to that. But essentially it followed soon after.

Q Would you describe for me what this former 
colored ward or wing looks like?



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ll

A The wing that you refer to is a building in 
very close proximity to the main hospital, but is 
separated; built many years ago, is old as are other 
parts of the main hospital*

Q Is it older than other parts of the hospital?
A No and yes. There have been several additions

to the hospital. It's older than some and younger than 
others.

Q When do you estimate it was constructed?
A Probably between 1915 and 1920.
Q Are there any operating room facilities in 

this wing?
A No.
Q How far is it from the main building?
A Approximately fifteen feet.
Q Is this fifteen feet outdoors, or is there a 

covered passageway?
A No passageway.
Q In other words, if you want to go from this

wing to the main building, you go outdoors?
A That's correct.
Q Negro patients who were taken to surgery, then,

were taken outdoors to get to the operating room?
A Yes.
Q And this was true until the change in policy?



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A Y e a .

Q Are there any Negroes who are still in that 
section of the hospital?

A Yes.
Q Approximately how many?
A I don't know; I'm not sure. Ehe count may 

vary from day to day. On an average maybe twenty to 
thirty.

Q How many beds are there in that section?
A About thirty-five.
Q How many white patients are in that wing today?
A I don't know.
Q '//hat is your best estimate?
A I don't know. There may be a few over there 

today; I haven't checked it.
Q Who would know?
A Who would know?
Q Who would know?
A Whoever walked through there. If you walked 

through and took a physical count, then you might know.
Q Don't you keep account of how many patients 

you assign to that wing?
A I know how many patients are in that wing;

I do not know whether they are white or whether they are 
Negro,



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Q You told me there were twenty to thirty 
patients who were Negroes and about thirty-five beds, 
and I am wondering about how many of the remaining beds 
are filled by white persons.

A I don't know.
Q is the wing usually filled to capacity?
A The occupancy Is usually quite full, yes.
Q Pardon me ?
A Yes, the occupancy usually means that this 

wing is quite full.
Q How many beds are there in the rest of the 

hospital?
A In the rest of the hospital there would be 

approximately 240 beds.
q  So prior to the change in policy, Negroes were 

restricted to 35 beds?
A By and large, yes.
Q What proportion of your patient load is

white?
A I don't know what proportion.
Q Do you have any Idea what it was in 1964?
A No, I don't recall.
Q To your knowledge, now, how many whites have 

been assigned to this formerly colored wing?
A I don't recall how many would have been assigned



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I don't know who —  or where the assignments are made. 
This is done by the admissions office; it has been 
instructed to admit patients according to facilities 
available in regard to financial ability to pay. So I 
don't know that,

Q You have never been instructed to make sure 
that the admissions are to place people without regard 
to race?

A Yes,
Q Now, I ask you again: to your knowledge how 

many whites have been assigned to this formerly colored 
wing?

A I don't recall,
Q Let's come to the point, Mr, Martin. Isn't 

it true that, Just as it was in the past, the predominant 
number or the predominant race which shows up in this 
wing is the Negro race? The majority of patients in 
that wing are Negroes; is that not correct?

A I think so.
Q Are more Negroes treated at your hospital than 

whites?
A No.
Q How do you account for the fact that Negroes

still seem to be the majority in this other wing -
custom?



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A Well, they are assigned and dispersed throughout 
the hospital, the main hospital, on the other floors, 
practically every floor.

Q How many floors are there In the hospital?
A Three. Ihree levels.
Q Are beds on all three of these floors?
A Yes.
Q Are there more whites or Negroes on the first

floor?
A I don’t laiow. It may vary from day to day 

depending on the census.
Q Is the census kept by race?
A No. But if I were to count the race at any 

particular day, it may be a figure that would make one 
race a higher percentage than another.

Q, Have you ever counted the races?
A No.
Q Did you make any attempt to change the racial

policy of the hospital prior to August of 1964?
A No.
Q Will you state to me everything that you have 

done to make sure that the policy has changed with 
respect to Negro patients and nurses?

A I have tried to see that the policies of the 
governing board have been carried out to the best of my



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ability to see that there is no discrimination because 
of any race or creed or color or any other factor of 
that nature.

Q Have you issued any directives to that effect 
in the last two months?

A I don't believe that I have in the last two 
months.

Q Have you ever seen more than five white 
patients in the wing?

MR. HOQUE: Objection to that.
A Which wing?
Q In the former Negro wing.
A I don't recall that I have, but I couldn't say 

whether there was more or less than five; I don't re­
call.

Q You don't recall having seen it?
A No.
Q What role, if any, do you play when the medical 

staff of the hospital considers an application for 
courtesy staff membership?

A I don't play any role in their consideration of 
an applicant.

Q What role, if any, do you play in the considera­
tion of an applicant by the Board of Managers? 

A To serve as the medium by which the



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is transferred from the staff to the governing body.
Q You report the recommendation of the staff to 

the board?
A Correct.
Q Do you also report the instructions or con­

clusions of the board to the staff?
A Yes.
Q When do you do that?
A I didn't hear that.
Q When do you do that?
A Within a reasonable time following such

action.
Q Do you speak to each staff member individually,

or do you put an announcement in the hospital bulletin, 
or do you make an announcement at the meeting?

A No. Such transmitting of this communication
would be done through channels to the president of the 
medical staff.

Q I see. So you didn't have any direct 
connection with the staff's response to the request of 
the board that it vote again on Dr. Eaton's application?

A No.
Q Do you know what the response of the staff

was?
A Yes, I know what the response was by virtue of



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its communication to the board through me so stating the 
results.

Q What was the attitude of most of the staff 
members whom you had come in contact with; were they very 
unhappy about this second vote?

A I don't know.
MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions.
MR. HOGUE: I have no questions of Mr,

Martin at this time.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

P age L ine



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D R , W I L L I A M  H. W E I N E L J R ., having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows;

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Will you state your full name and medical 

specialty, Doctor.
A William Harvey Weinel Jr. I am an obstetrician 

and gynecologist.
Q How long have you been practicing here in

Wilmington?
A Seven years July the 7th of this year.

Q
Walker?

How long have you been on the staff of James

A I can’t tell you precisely, but I applied for
the courtesy staff just prior to moving here, and was 
accepted to the attending staff some two years later.

Q
Hospital?

Are you also on the staff at Community

A I am not.
Q

Hospital?
Have you ever been on the staff at Community

A I have.
Q Do you remember in December of 1964 and again



in February of 1965 receiving ballots for you as a staff 
member to vote on the application for courtesy staff 
membership of Dr. Hubert Eaton?

A I remember receiving the ballots; the dates
I do not.

Q What did you do with those ballots?
A I voted.
Q Did you return the ballot in both instances? 
A Ye3.
q  How did you vote on the first occasion?
A On the first occasion? I voted no.
Q How did you vote on the second occasion?
A I think the second ballot was a secret

ballot.
Q Why don't you consider the first ballot secret?
A According to my understanding, the second 

ballot was secret and the first wa3 not.
Q On what do you base your understanding that 

the first ballot was not secret?
A Interpretation of the by-laws.
Q You interpret the by-laws to mean that the 

first ballot was not a secret one?
A I must say I didn't look them up. I was told 

this by another member of the staff.
Q Had you voted prior to this time on other



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applications for courtesy staff membership?
A I don't recall.
Q You don't recall ever voting on a doctor's 

application for courtesy staff membership?
A I don't recall whether I ever voted on a 

member prior to this or not.
Q As far as you recall, this occasion on Dr.

Eaton was the first time you voted?
A I don't recall whether I voted on another per­

son prior to this or not.
Q Did you receive ballots prior to this?
A I don't know.
Q Are you aware that the letter of transmittal 

of the ballots states something to the effect that,
"As usual any ballot not received within seven days will 
be considered an affirmative vote for the applicant '?

A 1 am aware of that.
Q So then, you cast a number of affirmative 

votes in the months and years prior to Dr. Eaton's 
application by not returning the ballots to the staff; 
is that correct?

A No, that is not what you asked me.
Q Well, would you clarify it for me? I'm not

too sure.
A All right. You asked me if I ever received any



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ballots prior to the dates that you gave me, and I don't 
recall whether I did or didn't. Now, I know that there 
have been several people who have come into this town, 
but I don't remember the exact dates that they did.
Uiat's what I am trying to tell you.

Q Did anyone come into the town and get placed 
on the James Walker staff prior to December of 1964?

A Well, I would have to look up the record to 
find out, but I think there has been one man that I can 
recall and possibly another one.

Q How did you mark the ballot which you returned 
in February or sometime close to February of 1965?

A For whom?
Q How did you mark the ballot which you caBt 

for Dr. Eaton's application in February of 1965?
A Well, I understand that was a secret ballot, 

and so far as I am concerned it will remain so.
q  Do you decline to tell me how you voted?
A I do.
Q Do you also decline to tell me the reason you

voted as you voted?
A No.
Q You will tell me the reason?
A Yes.
Q What was the reason?



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A Well, to begin with, his race or color had 
nothing to do with the particular way I voted,

Q Why do you bring up race and color, Dpctor?
'VU't-JLs *■

A
Q
A
Q

Because I think that's what you are After;
Why do you think that?
Why shouldn't I?
Does it have something to do with the history 

of his lawsuit?
A Well, it does, according to what I read in the

papers.
q  Does it have something to do with the litigation 

in which Dr. Eaton has been involved?
A What litigation?
q  I»m asking you, sir, whether or not it has 

anything to do with litigation which Dr. Eaton has been 
involved in?

A I don't know.
Q Would you kindly continue to tell me your 

reason for casting your ballots?
A Well, yes. I was in favor of the new hospital 

in this town. Before I came here or at the time that I 
was making plans to move to Wilmington, there was under 
consideration a bond issue here for building a new 
hospital; this fell through, and subsequently when I came 
to town I felt that the need of a new hospital in this



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area was great, and I worked to help achieve this. And 
I understand that Dr, Eaton opposed a new hospital, and 
I think that was detrimental to the town.

Q This vote on the new hospital was taken before 
you came to Wilmington?

A No. The first bond issue was voted down 
before I came to Wilmingtonj the subsequent bond issue 
has been since I have been here.

Q And Dr, Eaton's opposition to the new hospital 
was the determining factor in your vote; is that it?

A That's one of the major factors.
Q Well, will you tell me the minor factors?
A Well, I do not know Dr. Eaton personally. I

think I have seen Dr. Eaton previously, but I don't 
know him; and the other factors have been based on 
opinions given to me by people who do know this gentleman.

Q Will you state their names, please?
A No.
Q Why won't you tell me their names?
A I don't want to incriminate anybody else in 

my testimony.
Q You regard it as incriminating?
A Well, maybe that was a poor choice of words, 

but maybe they don't want me to give their names.
Q When you came to Wilmington, Doctor, were you



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informed that one of the major reasons given by Dr.
Eaton and the other members of the Negro community in 
opposing this new hospital was their fear of the treatment 
they and Negro patients would be afforded?

A Well, before I came to Wilmington, I never had 
heard of Dr. Eaton, and I wasn’t aware of the fact that 
there was any problem there or anywhere. I was told by 
some people prior to coming here that there were sane 
facets of the medical community that were not too 
desirable, but they didn't elaborate.

Q Well, after you came, did you have an 
opportunity to observe a different manner of treatment 
accorded to Negro patients than to whites at James Walker 
Hospital?

A A different manner of treatment, no.
Q Were Negro patients placed in that thirty-five 

or so bed wing of the hospital?
A I didn't hear the last.
Q Weren't Negro patients placed in a thirty-five 

or so bed wing of the hospital?
A Uiat's true.
Q Were there any Negro physicians on the staff 

of the hospital at that time?
A No.
Q Were there any Negro physicians who were members



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of the New Hanover County Medical Society at that time?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Now, you mentioned some minor matters, 

opinions, that you heard from others. Opinions about 
what?

A Fee splitting for one thing.
Q Are you aware that the credentials committee 

of the hospital passed favorably on Dr. Eaton's 
application?

A Well, I assume that the application was re­
viewed prior to being put out for ballot.

Q So they investigated his character at that
time?

A I don't know what investigation they did.
Q You don't know what the credentials committee

does?
A No, I know what the credentials committee 

is supposed to do.
Q Are they supposed to investigate a man's 

ethics?
A They are supposed to investigate his training; 

and I don't know whether there is any particular stipula­
tion as to investigating his ethics or how they do so.

Q You wouldn't vote to refuse a man staff 
membership on the basis of rumors of fee splitting which



took place before you came to Wilmington, would you?
A That*s tough. I don't know. One Isolated 

instance) is that what you are assuming?
MR. MELTS NER: Please read the question.

Q (Read by reporter) "You wouldn't vote to refuse 
a man staff membership on the basis of rumors of fee 
splitting which took place before you came to Wilmington, 
would you?"

A I ask you: One isolated instance?
Q Doctor, why don't you Just answer the question 

as best you can, qualifying it as you wish.
A If he made a general practice of this, I

would.
Q Now, let me ask you this: Fee splitting -

would you define it for me?
A Well, fee splitting - in my own terms and as 

I interpret what the American College of Surgeons says 
about it - is the return of a portion of a fee to a 
referring physician because of the referral.

q  There is nothing criminal about this, is there, 
to your knowledge?

A I wouldn't think so.
Q It's something which violates the regulations 

of the county medical society, as I understand it) is 
that correct?



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A Well, it's frowned on by the American College 
of Surgeons. I don’t know whether there is any particular 
stipulation in the county medical society about it or 
not. \ . r

Q Are you a member of the American College of 
Surgeons?

A I am. Well, X will have to qualify that* I 
will be Inducted in the American College of Surgeons in 
October. I have been accepted.

Q Well, how about physicians who are not or 
won't be members of the American College of Surgeons; 
how are they afx*ected by the American College of Surgeons' 
view about fee splitting?

A Nobody is directly affected by it. Xhere's 
no law about it. But our various medical societies, 
the American College of Surgeons being one of them, set 
some of the ethics by which we practice.

Q !Uxe New Hanover and others?
A Xhe country over, including Canada and some of 

our other neighboring countries.
Q What is the New Hanover's policy about fee 

splitting?
A Well, I think it's frowned on.
Q Do you think it's a common practice despite

this?



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A I do not.
Q Do you think there are many physicians who 

are on the staff of James Walker now or who have been on 
the staff in the past who split fees?

A Not to my knowledge.
Q If evidence were presented to you that they 

had, would you feel this would be grounds for their 
removal from the staff?

A I think they should be reprimanded.
Q Should they be removed from the staff?
A lhat's not up to me to decide. If I were

going to vote on them, if they were new applicants, I 
would consider it in my vote.

Q But you wouldn't consider it in a vote to 
remove them?

A I don't believe I have a vote to remove them.
Q Would you be in favor of instituting suspension

of privileges against these men if it were shown that they 
had split fees?

A I said I thought they ought to be reprimanded.
Q What do you mean by '‘reprimanded'1?
A Well, they should be told by the medical 

governing body of the hospital that this is not an 
accepted practice, and then that the body should take 
whatever action they see fit, which is not up to me to



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decide
Q Did you ever contact Dr. Eaton and ask him 

whether these rumors were true or not ?
A No.
Q Why didn't you?
A Why should I?

MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing else.

CROSS-EXAMINAH ON

BY MR. HOGUE:
Q Doctor, did any member of the Board of Managers 

of the hospital or its director, Mr. Martin, in any way 
influence your vote on the second ballot with regard to 
Dr. Eaton?

A No.
Q Did they discuss it with you at all?
A No.
q Did the attorney for the board discuss it with

you?
A No.
Q Have I ever discussed this matter with you at

all?
A No.
Q Isn't it true, Doctor, that three Negro



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physicians have been admitted to the staff of James Walker 
Memorial Hospital since August of 1964?

A Biat's true.
Q And two of them are presently serving on the

staff?
A Yes.
Q And one of them, I believe, has since died?
A I believe so.
Q Without respect to which way you voted on 

the second ballot, would you say that your vote was based 
on the general reputation of Dr. Eaton in the community?

A I think so.
MR. HOGUE: No further questions,

RE DIRE C T-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Now, Doctor, you said that your vote was based 

on Dr. Eaton's general reputation in the community. Did 
you talk to any Negroes about Dr. Eaton?

A About Dr. Eaton, himself?
Q That's correct,
A No.
Q You know nothing of his reputation in the 

Negro community, then; isn't that correct?



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A I didn't say that.
Q Do you know anything of Dr. Eaton's reputation 

in the Negro community here?
A Yes.
Q What is his reputation?
A It's hard to define. But I have quite a few 

Negro patients, and they communicate with me; and through 
these patients I have gained a general impression as to 
how other members of his community view Dr. Eaton.

Q How many Negro patients do you think you have 
spoken to?

A I don't know.
Q Your best estimate.
A Well, I see a lot of patients.
Q Would you give me some of their names?
A I couldn't.
Q Pardon me ?
A I could not.
Q Did you oppose Dr. Roane for membership on the

staff?
A No.
Q Did you oppose Dr. Gray?
A No.
Q Did you oppose Dr. Wheeler?
A No.



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Q In your mind Dr. Eaton is primarily responsible 
for the opposition to the new hospital?

A I didn't say "primarily responsible." I said 
he opposed it.

Q You don’t think Dr. Roane opposed it?
A I don't think he advocated it strongly.
Q You don't think he advocated the hospital 

strongly, or you don't think he opposed it strongly?
A I don't think he took as active a part in 

it.
Q Would the same be true as to Dr. Gray?
A Yes.
Q How about Dr. Wheeler?
A I don't think he did either.
Q But Dr. Eaton did?
A But I think that Dr. Wheeler was-^for the new 

hospital.
Q
A

Dr. Eaton, then, 
In his community

was the leader of the opposition

MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing else.
MR. HOGUE: You may come down.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S

P age L in e

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D R . J A M E S  T I D L E R, having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MELTSNERi
Q Would you state your full name and medical 

specialty. Doctor.
A James Tidier, Internal Medicine.
Q How long have you been practicing in Wilmington, 

Doctor?
A Since 1949.
Q How long have you been on the staff at James 

Walker Hospital?
A Approximately the same length of time.
Q Are you or have you ever been on the staff 

at Community Hospital?
A No, I have not.
Q Do you recall voting at the end of last year 

and the beginning of this year on Dr. Hubert Eaton's 
application for Btaff membership at James Walker?

A I remember the occasion, yes.
Q Did you vote on those occasions?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Did you return the ballot on those occasions?



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A I don’t really recall.
Q How did you vote on the first occasion?
A Well, I feel that this is rather a personal, 

private affair, and I really don't think I care to answer 
that.

Q You decline to answer?
A I would rather not.
Q Doctor, I'm Bure you would rather not. But I 

will have to ask you again. If you do not wish to answer, 
I wish you would say it without qualification. How did 
you vote on this first occasion?

A I do not wish to answer.
Q How did you vote on the second occasion?
A I do not wish to answer.
Q What were your reasons for voting for or 

against Dr. Eaton on the first occasion?
A Ihat's hard to answer. Just general knowledge 

and information and impressions that I had received.
Q No, Doctor. For what reasons did you vote for 

or against him?
A I don't recall; I can't really say.
Q Can you answer that question without revealing 

how you voted?
A No, I don't suppose I could.
Q Your answer is you suppose you couldn't?



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A Ask the question again. Reasons for or against? 
How did your question go?
THE FOLLOWING READ BY REPORTER:

"Q What were your reasons for voting for or against 
Dr. Eaton on the first occasion?”

MR, MELTSNER: I want you to read the
last question which was with respect to do you 
think you can answer that.

”Q Can you answer that question without revealing 
how you voted?

"A No, I don't suppose I could.
”Q Your answer is you suppose you couldn't?"

BY MR. MELTSNER:
Q Let me withdraw the last question. Just let 

me state my understanding of what you said. You said 
that you couldn't state the reasons you voted for or 
against him without revealing the way you voted for or 
against him?

A Well, it's a complicated question. I'm Just 
not sure whether I can answer it at all. It leads down 
several paths that I don't see how there Is any one answer 
to,

Q Do you think, Doctor, that the reason a physician 
votes for or against an applicant is a private matter?

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don't think the reason is, but I don't think we can always 
state categorically what our reasons are.

Q Are you unable to state categorically what 
your reasons are?

A Yes, I am unable to.
Q Are you aware that the credentials committee 

of the medical staff acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's 
application?

A Yes, or else it would not have come up for a
vote.

Q Isn't this endorsement of his background and 
his competence as a physician?

A It's my understanding it is merely an endorse- 
ment of his basic medical education,,, tLo^e. Ttsle-

Q But you did not consider the credentials 
committee report in voting?

A I always do, yes.
Q You always consider it?
A I would say so.
Q Do you give great weight to the recommendation 

of the committee?
A Well, I don't know what you mean by "great 

weight"; that's a relative term, I give certainly some 
weight to it. As I say, I believe we don't even vote 
on such a case unless the credentials committee passes it



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on for a vote
Q, Do you know of any standards for medical staff 

admission which are set forth in the hospital by-laws' 
rules and regulations?

A Standards set forth in the by-laws? I know 
there are standards, yes.

Q Do you know of any a3ide from those in the
by-laws?

A
Q
A

Yes.
What are those?
'Diose would be the opinion that the individual

Q 'Riese aren't written standards; these are 
individual standards you are referring to now?

A Veil, they are more or less written; they are 
implied, certainly, in the by-laws.

Q If they are not written down anyplace, how
do you direct them?

A I'm not that familiar with the exact wording 
of the by-laws; all I know is In a general way what 
they say.

Q My question now is directed to standards which 
exist aside from those which are In the by-laws. Are 
there any other standards, written standards, which you 
know of which apply to staff admission?



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have of the reputation of an individual are not written 
down. Again, I think they are implied in the by-laws, 
but I don't know that they are written in black and 
white.

q So any additional standards which you would 
feel apply are those implied in the by-laws?

A Right.
q Uiere is nothing else you can direct me to?
A I don't know that I can direct you to anything. 

As I say, I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the 
by-laws regarding this; all I know is in general.

Q When is the last time you read the by-laws?
A I don't know.
Q Have you ever read them?
A Yes, sir.
Q At the time you applied for the staff?
A I undoubtedly did then.
Q Have you read them through since?
A I believe I have.
q  Give me your best idea when you did so the 

last time?
A It would be merely a guess. I don't see how

I can do that.
Q Can't you guess?

A Well, I suppose general impressions that people



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A Well, I would say within the last two or three
years would be the best guess I could give.

MR. MELTSNER: I have no further
questions.

MR. HOGUE: I have no questions.

Signature of Witness:



L A W Y E R  S N O T E S

P a g e L in e

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STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA 
COUNTY OF WAKE

SS

I, Wilda Y. Hauer, a Notary Public in and for 
the State of North Carolina at Large, hereby certify that 
the foregoing witnesses were duly sworn by me prior to 
giving testimony in the foregoing cause;

That the testimony of said witnesses was taken 
by me in stenotypy and also by means of electronic recording 
and thereafter transcribed and reduced to typewriting under 
my supervision and direction;

That thereafter the testimony of each witness 
was submitted to him for reading, correcting, and signing, 
and returned to me for filing;

That the foregoing 336 pages contain a full, true 
and correct record and transcription of all interrogatories 
propounded to each witness and of the answers given by him;

I further certify that I am an Official Court 
Reporter for the United States District Court, Eastern 
District of North Carolina, am not related by blood or 
marriage to any of the parties, am not an employee or agent 
of any of the parties, nor am I interested directly or 
indirectly in the event of said action.

Witness my hand and seal this 25th day of 
August, 1965.

i w m i f l ----------------
Vsy commission expires 
May 28, 1966.