School Board of the City of Newport News, Virginia v. Thompson Brief in Opposition to Certiorari

    I s f T W  £ y

I n th e

v  yA ,

$nitri> Slates Court irf Appeals
F oe th e  F if t h  Circ u it  

No. 23255

E ebeoca E. H en r y , et al.,

-v-
Appellants,

T h e  Clarksdale M un icipal  S eparate S chool

D istr ic t , et al.,
Appellees.

A PPE A L  FR O M  T H E  U N IT E D  ST A T E S  D IST R IC T  CO U RT 

FO R  T H E  N O R T H E R N  D IST R IC T  OP M IS S IS S IP P I

RECORD ON A PPEA L  

Volume I I —-Pages 400  to End

J ack Greenberg  
Derrick  A. B e l l , J r.

10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019

H enry M. A ronson

538% N. Farish Street 
Jackson, Mississippi

R. J ess  B rown

125% N. Farisli Street 
Jackson, Mississippi

Attorneys fo r  Appellants



I N D E X

Complaint ...................................._........................... 2

Answer of Clarksdale Municipal Separate School Dis­
trict, et al......................... ................................................. 23

Order for Preliminary Injunction ................................ 20

Submission of Plan for Immediate Start Towards 
Desegregation, etc............................ ................................ 25

Plaintiffs’ Objections to Desegregation Plans, etc...... 46

Resolution of Board of Trustees of Clarksdale Mu­
nicipal Separate School District, etc. ........................ 50

Order ......... ....................... ................................................... 03

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Injunctive R e lie f___  65

Stipulation ...... .......................................................... 0g

Memorandum Opinion ...... .................................... ............ 71

Order for Permanent Injunction ................. ............... m

Order Amending Order for Permanent Injunction__  119

Plaintiffs’ Motion to Amend Findings and Judgment 120

Memorandum and Order...... .......................... .................. 126

Defendants’ Revised Plan for Elementary Attendance 
Zones, Petition, etc. .................................................. 127

Plaintiffs’ Objections to Defendants’ Revised Plan,
etc- -----................. -........-........- ...... ............................ 136

Memorandum Opinion _________  .... 141

Order ..... ............................................................... ................ 14g

Notice of Appeal ......................... ............. 150

PAGE



Designation of Record on Appeal ___________ _____ 150

Interrogatories (First Set) ......... .................................... 151

Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories (First Set) .... 155

Interrogatories (Second Set) .................. ....................... 175

Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories (Second Set) 179

Interrogatories (Third Set) ...................... ..................... 187

Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories (Third Set) .... 192

Objections to Interrogatories .......................................... 197

Order Sustaining, in Part, Objections to Interroga­
tories ....................................... .......................................... 198

Further Answer to Interrogatory Numbered 2 .........  199

Transcript of Hearing dated August 19, 1964 . 200

Oral Decision .           307

Transcript of Hearing dated April 8, 1965  ...... 311

Transcript of Hearing dated April 9, 1965  ... 484

Transcript of Hearing dated November 15, 1965 . 651

T estim ony

Plaintiffs’ W itnesses:

Ignatius Sermnes Luckett—
Direct ....... .......................................................... 312

Hudson F. Bell, J r .—
Direct ....... ...... ..................................................... 352
Cross ................. ........ .......................... ............... 383
Redirect ........ .............. ......................................  396

ii

PAGE



I l l

Aaron H en ry -
Direct .... ..............
Cross ....................

Reginald Neuwien—
Direct ....— ........
Cross ...... ..............
Redirect ...............
Recross ................

Myron Lieberman—
Direct -------- -----
Cross .....................

William T. Wilkins—
Direct ..................
Cross __________

Gyeelle Tynes—
Direct .............—
Cross ..... ..............
Redirect ..... .........
Recross _______

Defendants’ W itnesses:

Gyeelle Tynes—
Direct ........ .........
Cross _______ _
Redirect ..... ........

Charles Longino—
Direct ..................
Cross ....... ............
Redirect ............. .
Recross ________

.... 424 

.... 443

.... 452

..... 485 
517, 530 
.... 525

PAGE

531
551

583
601

602
613
645
646

201,651 
.262, 680
.... 301

400
409
420
422



IV

E xh ibits
Offered Printed  

P a g e  P a g e
Plaintiffs’ E xhibits:

8— Map ................... ..........................-.........359,365
9— Decree  ..............-.............. ...................360, 363

Defendants’ E xhibits:

1 to 18—Pictures  ......... ........................... 387
19 to 23—Pictures  ....... ...................— .. 389
24— Map   ........... ....................................... 405 771
25— Map ................................ ......................... 409 773
26— Plan ................... ..........................- .......... 613 775

Clarksdale School District Composite Map (Filed by 
the Board on August 10, 1964) .................... ........... 795

* Omitted.



Volume II



400

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C harles Lon gin o—fo r  D efendants— D irect

—151—
Charles L ostgiho, a witness called by and in behalf of 

the defendants, having been first duly sworn, testified as 
fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. Duckett:

Q. Is this Mr. Charles Longino! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Longino? A. 924 Oak- 

hurst, Clarksdale.
Q. What’s your occupation? A. Beal estate broker.
Q. Are you a member of the Clarksdale Planning Com­

mission? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you presently its Chairman? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you a member of the Comission back in May 

of 1959 when the contract with Michael Baker, Jr ., In­
corporated was made by the City of Clarksdale? A. I 
was.

Q. Where you a member of the Commission back in May 
of 1961 when the contract with Michael Baker was made 
by the Mississippi Agricultural and Industrial Board?

—152—
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What sort of urork does Michael Baker do, among 
other things? A. Well, they’re city planners and con­
sulting engineers.

Q. Did the contract referred to call for the preparation 
of a comprehensive city plan for the City of Clarksdale? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why was such a comprehensive city plan desired, 
sir? A. Well, there were several reasons. Primarily for



401

our use with the urban renewal programs and for the 
ordinary or orderly growth of the City of Clarksdale for 
a 25-year period.

Q. Was such a comprehensive city plan prepared by 
Michael Baker! A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is this a copy of the same, Mr. Longino! A. That’s 
my copy.

Q. It is a copy? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was it delivered by Michael Baker? A. Nine-

—1 5 3 -
teen sixty-two?

Q. What date in 1962? A. June the 8th, 1962 is the 
cover letter.

Q. Does the cover letter refer to the dates of the con­
tracts as May 5, 1959 and April 1, 1961? A. Yes, sir.

City of Clarksdale—May 5th, ’59; and the A and I  Board 
—April the 1st, ’61.

Q. Mr. Longino, is a part of the comprehensive plan 
devoted to a study of the city housing? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does it include a study of the problem housing areas 
and a designation of those areas? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does it include a suggested housing program? A. 
Yes, sir.

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

C harles L ongino— fo r  D efen dan ts— D irect

Mr. Bell: Excuse me.
I think this is Mr. Luckett’s witness.
So, if you wouldn’t lead the witness, we would 

appreciate it.
The Court: Don’t lead your witness, Mr. Luckett.



402

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il 8, 1965

Charles Longino—for Defendants—Direct 

By Mr. Lu ckett:

Q. Well, we have an index to the plan, do we not?
—154—

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And under “Housing” is shown the different parts 

of it, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you read those parts in the table of contents 

under the Chapter V? A. Well, Chapter V, Section I I  is:

“A Suggested Housing Program 
“Public Understanding and Cooperation 
“Tools of the Program—Codes and Ordinances 
“Neighboring Analyses for Problem Areas 
“Treatment of Substandard Housing 
“Conserving Satisfactory Housing 
“Improvements Through Urban Renewal 
“Administration of the Urban Renewal Program 
“Housing Families Displaced by Urban Renewal 

Action.”

Q. Will you turn to Page 53 of the plan and tell the 
Court what appears at that page of the plan? A. Page 53

—155—
is a map of the City of Clarksdale showing the priorities 
for neighborhood analyses.

Q. Does it designate certain areas in the City of Clarks­
dale by number? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, if you look on Page 52, are those areas de­
scribed? A. Yes, sir.

They are described as Areas I through X III, I believe. 
Q. Now, will you read the paragraph that’s denominated 

“Neighborhood Analyses for Problem Areas” on Page 52?



403

A. “The City should initiate a series of detailed studies 
of their problem housing areas to determine the cause 
of blighted conditions, the remedial steps necessary to 
remove existing blight and the course of action necessary 
to prevent its recurrence. To assist the city in preparing 
these studies, suggested priorities for neighborhood anal­
yses are illustrated by Figure V-2. These problem areas, 
listed in the order of priority for treatment, are as fol­
lows

—156—
Q. And it goes through every one, on through all the 

numbers,— A. Right.
Q. —does it not! A. Yes, sir.
Q. I f  you will turn to Page 56, does it have a part 

there beginning with the words “Improvements Through 
Urban Renewal” ! A. Yes, sir, and three or four para­
graphs under that general head.

Q. Well, the last paragraph under that heading there 
—does that include the recommendation that was made 
by the comprehensive city planners to the City of Clarks- 
dale or to the Planning Commission! A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that sentence! A. It says:

“Without question, Clarksdale badly needs urban 
renewal for the areas set forth previously on the 
‘Priorities for Neighborhood Analyses’ map (Figure 
V-2).”

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

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Q. All right, sir.
Right above that does it specify what is to be done under

—157—
the urban renewal process! A. Yes, sir.



404

“The urban renewal process, where federal assist­
ance is solicited, consists of the following general 
procedures”—and lists nine of them.

Q. Well, the first one is a matter—
What is the first step! A. “Designation of a specific 

area for urban renewal.”
Q. Was thereafter that done by the City Planning Com­

mission? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did that include Problem Area 1 and Problem Area 

II?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, let’s be certain we’ve got that exactly right. 

A. Actually, we worked with them on both areas. We only 
got started on Area I.

Q. Does it include all of Area I and part of Area II? 
A. I believe there is part of Area I I  on this; yes, sir.

—158—
These are two maps drawn by Michael Baker. This was 

the land use map of the area for urban renewal, and this 
is the project conditions map of the area for urban renewal, 
showing the conditions of the dwellings and businesses and 
so forth in that area of urban renewal.

That’s just the location map showing that area specifi­
cally.

Q. Is this, what I am showing you now, a location map 
showing the location of the Clarksdale urban renewal proj­
ect? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Luckett: May I introduce this in evidence, 
your Honor?

Mr. Bell: I have no objection.
The Court: You may. Let it be received and 

marked.

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405

The Deputy Clerk: This is Defendants’ Exhibit 24.

(The map referred to, being a map bearing the 
legend “Clarksdale Urban Renewal Project 
Location Map”, was marked and received in 
evidence as Defendants’ Exhibit 24.)

—159—
By Mr. L u ckett:

Q. Now, will yon refer back to the neighborhood analyses 
for problem areas—that’s the map on Page 53 and the 
listing on 52—and tell the Court if there is listed there 
the problem areas in the order of their priority for treat­
ment? A. Yes.

Area I  was the area that—on the map was the area that 
we actually started work with the urban renewal group, 
and is in this, and a portion of Area I I  was included in our 
first urban renewal attempt.

Q. Was that the area that was first recommended for 
treatment under the urban renewal program? A. Yes, sir.

And I  might add that—
Q. "Was everything necessary to be done—was it done in 

order to qualify for the urban renewal funds and for the 
purchase of the property in that area and the demolition of 
those houses? A. We had a complete plan.

Q. Was the plan approved by the federal agency which 
has to do with urban renewal projects? A. Yes, sir.

—160—
Q. Well, are you familiar with the property that we’ve 

been talking to as the Tuxedo Park area? A. Very much.
Q. Was it included in the Area Number I  as given as the 

most critical problem area in the City of Clarksdale? A. 
It was.

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406

Q. Was it included in the urban renewal project which 
called for the demolition of those houses'? A. It was.

Q. Well, the property that’s just north of the jail, which 
the county has purchased in connection with the jail im­
provements—are you familiar with the location of those 
properties? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were those properties located in Area Number I, the 
most critical area? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it also included in the project for urban renewal? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with the property across from the 
jail purchased by the city? A. Yes, sir.

—161—
Q. Is that also included in the urban renewal project? 

A. It is.
Q. That’s in the Critical Area Number II, is it not? A. 

I believe that was in Critical Area II, but was included in 
the urban renewal project?

Q. Yes, sir.
Now, there have been some purchases made by the city in 

what we call the Fairland-Edgefield section of the town; is 
that right, sir? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, was that property in the Critical Area Number 
II?  A. Number II.

Q. Was that included in the urban renewal project that 
was first submitted? A. No, sir.

Q. Was it scheduled for submission in the second urban 
renewal project? A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how long did the City Planning Commission work 
on this project, Mr. Longino? A. We started this work

—1 6 2 -
back in 1958. In fact, this map on Page 53 of the book was

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407

actually drawn in ’59 and is so shown here, and we worked 
on it continuously until we were stopped.

Q. You were stopped by legislation? A. By legislation.
Q. All right, sir.
Was I  on that Board at the same time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was everything done that you know of that could have 

been done by the Planning Commission to bring about the 
cleaning up of these areas by urban renewal? A. Every­
thing possible.

Q. Had any lawsuit been filed against the City School 
Board at that time ? A. I  don’t think so; no.

Q. In the discussions that were had up there were any 
racial considerations given to these matters? A. No.

Q. Did these areas that have been designated for urban 
renewal treatment also include white residences and busi­
nesses? A. Businesses; commercial; yes.

—163—
Q. Were plans made for rehousing the people who would 

be displaced by that project? A. Very definitely.
Q. What were those plans? A. There were two public 

housing areas in mind. I  think the architects actually drew 
some plans. A group of realtors were employed to actually 
appraise and did appraise and even attempted to start pur­
chasing just about the time the Legislature stopped us.

Q. That’s property on which a public housing develop­
ment was to be— A. Built.

Q. —constructed? A. Bight.
Q. Outside of the Tuxedo Park area, Mr. Longino, what 

is the relationship of these properties we’ve been talking 
about with respect to the central business district of the 
City of Clarksdale? A. Well, other than Tuxedo Park, 
there was—the main reason for the urban renewal program

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

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408

was that these problem areas, as we called them, were within 
the boundaries of what we would like to have used as the 
central business district.

—164—
Q. Is the location of this particular Federal Building here 

in the central business district of the town, Mr. Longino! 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know about the condemnation that was car­
ried out by the federal government in order to acquire 
property here for the location of this building? A. Yes, 
sir.

I was one of the realtors that worked on it.
Q. Were a number of residences purchased and demol­

ished at that time? A. Four or five, if I  remember right.
Q. Whites or Negroes living in them? A. All whites, I 

believe.
Q. All right, sir. A. There may have been—
I ’ve forgotten, but I  think it was all white.
Q. Within a block here don’t we have a Methodist Edu­

cational Building? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have some buildings been bought down there and 

demolished within the last three or four years ? A. I think 
they bought three buildings to convert into a playground.

—165—
Q. You are a member of the Baptist Church, aren’t you? 

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your church is in the central business district, isn’t it? 

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has your church bought some property in the central 

business district and is it not in the process of destroying 
the houses? A. Yes, sir, and I want to buy a couple more 
if I can.

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409

Mr. Luckett: All right. Yon can take the witness. 
Excuse me before yon do that.
May I  introduce this urban renewal—
The Witness: There are two different maps here. 
This is the project conditions map.
Mr. Luckett: I  would like to introduce the project 

conditions map under the urban renewal project, 
which has been identified by Mr. Longino, as Exhibit 
Number 25 to defendants’ testimony.

The Court: You’ve seen this, haven’t you?
—166—

Mr. Bell: Yes.
The Court: All right. Let it be received and 

marked.

(The map referred to, being a map bearing the 
legend “Clarksdale Urban Renewal Project— 
Project Conditions Map”, was marked and re­
ceived in evidence as Defendants’ Exhibit 25.)

The Witness: Here’s the other one, Mr. Luckett, 
the land use map, which was the same area of dif­
ferent—

Mr. Bell: Your Honor, Mr. Aronson will handle 
the cross examination.

Cross Examination by Mr. Aronson:

Q. Mr. Longino, you said that—you commented in part 
during your testimony—you were working with them dur­
ing your consideration of these problem areas. Who is the 
“them” you referred to? A. Michael Baker was—they had 
sent a man in here to work with us in preparing this urban 
renewal program, and also the group from Atlanta, the

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410

Housing and Home group, that were going to put this
—167—

through for us.
Q. When were they last here? A. I  don’t remember 

when they were last here. It has been a year or so ago.
Q. Did they participate with your planning group in the 

deannesation of certain areas that we’ve talked about and 
in the purchase of properties in certain areas that we talked 
about? A. You mean did they when they were actually 
purchased?

No. The plans were made to purchase them —
Q. Did they— A. —and we actually paid money for 

appraisals and so forth, but legislation stopped our urban 
renewal program.

Q. Did they advise you with respect to deannexation or 
A. I don’t understand your question exactly.

Q. Certain parts of the city—
The city boundary was changed— A. Yes.
Q. —last July? A. Right.
Q Did this Baker group advise you with respect to

- 1 6 8 -
changing the city’s boundaries? A. We discussed the fact 
that our city limits did need revising with Michael Baker; 
yes.

Q. So, I  take it that one of their manners in upgrading 
the city is just to lop off parts that they don’t like; is that 
so? A. Well, I  don’t know—

Q. They advised you to get rid of a certain part of the 
city that was substandard; so, this plan for progress or 
growth of Clarksdale in part was pursuant to a plan where 
you actually shrunk the city rather than expanded it?

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411

Is that not true? A. Well, I  don’t think the city was ac­
tually shrunk. It was some taken in and some left out.

Q. The fact remains that part of the land area of 
Coahoma County that was once the City of Clarksdale, after 
you went through the deannexation proceedings, was no 
longer a part of Clarksdale; is that right? A. Yeah, and I 
think you will find in the history of the City of Clarksdale— 
I can point out several areas that have been in and out of 
the city limits on one or more than one occasion.

I have some property out here on Spruce Street, 40 acres,
—169—

that has been in and out of the city limits three, four or 
five different times. We have it back in. There’s certain 
time we take some out, bring some back in, for specific 
reasons.

Q. What are some of the reasons that lead you to take 
it out and bring it back in ? A. Oh, there are many reasons.

The fact that an area cannot be serviced economically by 
utilities would be a real reason for taking it out of the city 
limits until it could be serviced by utilities.

Q. Well, could you briefly summarize for us the consider­
ations that would lead towards knocking a part of the land 
area out of the city, then bringing it back in,— A. All 
right.

Q. —and then knocking it back out again? A. Let’s take 
this piece of property over here on Spruce. It is unde­
veloped property. It  lay within an area that should be taken 
into the city limits. So, the city took it in. The man that 
was farming the area fussed completely about the fact that 
it would be taxed as city property rather than county prop­
erty. So, he finally prevailed on the city to either give him 
full utilities out there or take him out of the city limits and

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412

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

C harles Longino— fo r  D efendants— C ross

—170—
get out from under city taxes, and that was done about 
three different times.

That’s the reason for taking it in and out—for taxation 
purposes.

Q. All right. I  see.
So, in effect, then, this was negotiations between a farmer 

and the city? A. That specific one was; yes.

Mr. Aronson: May I see the photographs, please? 

By Mr. Aronson-.
Q. Does this area of the city that we are talking about 

that was owned by the farmer have a common name?
Is this the Tuxedo Park area? A. No. No.
This was an area called—I don’t know that it has a com­

mon name. I t ’s property owned by the Bobo estate. I said 
it was unimproved property.

Q. This has always been unimproved property? A.
That’s right.

Q. Let me now direct your attention to the area called 
Tuxedo Park. A. Tuxedo Park. Right.

—171—
Q. I will show you Defendants’ Exhibits Number 19, 20, 

21, 22 and 23. Are those reasonably familiar to you? A. 
Yes. I  made many trips down there. Yes.

Q. Now, as I  understand the history of Tuxedo Park with 
respect to Clarksdale, this was an area where there was 
some testimony to the effect that there was a bad plight or 
plight of polio. There was an epidemic or at least several 
cases of polio in 1949 that followed from runoff of sewage.



413

Are you familiar with this? A. No; I ’m not familiar with 
that.

Mr. Luckett: If  the Court please, to keep the rec­
ord straight, I  didn’t say that. There has been no­
body ever able to trace that polio to its source. I 
simply said my daughter was down there and sub­
jected to those unhealthy hazards. I  didn’t say any­
body could pinpoint it, and I  was the only person 
who was interested in that particular feature of the 
matter. So, that’s a peculiar personal reason I had 
in my interest in Tuxedo Park.

Mr. Aronson: I  see.
Thank you.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Would you please tell the Court the considerations 
that led to the purchase of the homes in the Tuxedo Park

—1 7 2 -
area? A. Well, completely to get rid of the type property 
that you see there.

Q. And why was Tuxedo Park chosen as opposed to other 
areas, other homes, within what is the Baker survey?

I take it this is part of the Baker survey? A. Eight.
Q. Area Number I? A. Number I ;  right.

Mr. Aronson: I  wonder if we could have the map, 
please, that indicates this Area Number I.

The Witness: Here it is.
Mr. Aronson: I  believe we have a more detailed 

map, which is Defendants’ Exhibit 24 or 25.

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414

H ea rin g  o f  A p r il 8, 1965

Charles Longino—for Defendants—Cross 

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  show you Defendants’ Exhibit Number 25 and most 
particularly the area which is denominated “Urban Renewal 
Project”. A. Right.

Q. Now, do the lines that show on this map parallel ex­
actly the lines that are shown in this survey? A. No.

Area I  was designated Problem Area Number I ;  Area
—173—

II  was designated Problem Area Number II, and so forth 
and so on.

Then, when we got into the actual urban renewal, we took, 
I think, all of Area I  with a small portion of Area I I  to con­
form to this pattern.

Q. Now, referring still to Area Number I, how much of 
the housing in Area Number I  remains, if any? A. You 
mean on a percentage basis or—

Q. Any basis that you’re able to testify to—number of 
homes; percentage. A. I  don’t even know how many 
houses were bought in the over-all deal, and there were 
about 31 parcels of land in the Tuxedo Park and six or eight 
parcels, a parcel being one ownership tract of land—all but 
probably 25 per cent or less were bought.

Q. Now, Tuxedo Park, the phrase “Tuxedo Park”, and 
the phrase “Problem Area Number I ” are not synonymous, 
are they? A. No.

Q. So, you have just commented about 31 or 2 parcels in 
Tuxedo Park? A. Right.

Q. I direct your attention to Problem Area Number 1
—174—

as a whole,— A. Right.
Q. —and I would ask that you tell the Court what per­

centage of the total home or land area, total number of



415

homes or land area, in Problem Area Number 1, including 
Tuxedo Park and including the rest—what percentage of or 
how many homes have you purchased and what percentage 
remains unpurchased or how many homes remain unpur­
chased.

Put it in either terms you are best able to. A. Well, of 
course, you have got a difference in terms there, in land 
area and number of homes.

Some of the homes in the area were located on very large 
lots; some of the commercial properties were on large lots, 
and you take an area like Tuxedo Park—many homes were 
on small lots.

Number of homes, I  would say, purchased—80 per cent 
or better; land area—I don’t know.

Q. Now, the 20 per cent remaining homes—are they still 
inhabited, to the best of your knowledge? A. I  think some 
of them are. I—

Q. Would they be inhabited by white persons or by per­
sons of the Negro race? A. In this specific area?

—175—
Q. Yes. A. In Problem Area Number I?
I  think there’s all whites.
There’s just three or four houses left.
Q. What considerations led you to select the homes that 

you did for purchase and/or to condemn them— A. 
Well—

Q. —as opposed to the homes that you did not purchase 
or condemn? A. Well, the difference in the condition of 
the homes.

There was one thirty-five-thousand-dollar home in this 
area that’s in perfect condition.

The homes that were bought—all were in a very dilapi­
dated condition. The ones that were not bought were not.

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416

Q. Is it your testimony that all of the homes that were 
purchased fall into the census definition of the word “dilapi­
dated” ?

And I  refer you to Page 48 under the heading “Dilapida­
tion and Sanitary Facilities”. A. I  think if you look at that 
condition map we had every home that was purchased is 
so designated on that map.

— 176—

You see, in the black is the deficient structures, and those 
were the homes.

Q. Now, we’re referring now to Defendants’ Exhibit 
Number 25.

Is the area on Defendants’ Exhibit Number 25 which is 
outlined by alternate dots and dashes the area we have been 
referring to as Problem Area Number I? A. No. This is 
urban renewal area.

There’s a difference in this, as you brought out while 
ago, in this and Problem Area Number I, to a slight degree.

Q. Which is to say it includes a very small part of what 
was Problem Area Number II?  A. Eight.

Q. I f  we may talk in general terms for a moment, Prob­
lem Area Number I  and the urban renewal tract area are 
the same for all practical purposes? A. Basically the 
same.

Q. Okay. A. Right.
Q. Now, again going to time periods, no annexation or de­

annexation and no condemnation went on prior to last Ju ly ; 
is that right? A. You’ve got the dates better than—

— 177—

I  don’t know that that date is exactly right.
Q, Was it sometime last summer? A. When, you mean, 

the actual tearing down and so forth occurred?
Q. Or the actual transfer of property, transfer of the

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417

title where you purchased properties, or the actual—- A. 
I  assume that’s about when it was; yes.

Q. Now, referring specifically to this area and more par­
ticularly to the blocks which you have pointed out to me as 
being dilapidated, the legend of the map indicates they’re 
deficient structures. A. Eight.

Q. Is that precisely synonymous with “dilapidated” in 
census terms? A. In my way of thinking.

Q. And is your way of thinking the same as the Census 
Bureau? A. I  don’t know thah

Q. I  mean: If  you don’t know,— A. No; I  don’t.
Q. —just say that. A. I  don’t.

—178—
Q. You show here where you purchased and where you 

haven’t purchased? A. On this map?
No.
Q. Well, you show me this as—
You show here as being deficient structures. A. Eight.
Q. What brought us to this map—we were talking about 

the number of homes you had purchased and those you 
hadn’t purchased— A. Eight.

Q. —and what led you to purchase the ones you did— 
A. Eight.

Q. —and not to purchase the ones you didn’t. A. Eight.
Q. You indicated there is a small pocket left of homes 

and your testimony was that they were occupied by white 
persons.

Let me ask you this: How do you know they’re occupied 
by white persons? A. Well, my office is only one block 
away. I  go by it pretty regular.

—179—
Q. And you know who lives in every house? A. I think 

I  do in that area; yes.

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418

Q. How many homes are we talking about! A. Five or 
six.

Q. Do they have children! A. Actually, I  doubt there’s 
a child in the ownership, the homes that are owned. I  think 
there are some children in the area in probably some rental 
housing.

Q. There are rental houses and there are owned houses! 
A. Yes.

Q. Now, would you say the condition of these homes runs 
the scale from very good to rather poor! A. Well, you 
see, why I  brought you to this map was the ones that are 
deficient structures were the ones that were bought; the 
ones that are white or standard structures are the ones we 
haven’t purchased, as I  understand.

Q. Oh. A. See, that’s why I brought you to this map. 
You asked why these were bought specifically.

Q. Is every home in this area indicated by a little box! 
A. Every home or business or commercial enterprise.

— 180—

Q. In other words, every structure on the land in this 
area is indicated by a box! A. That is the reason for this 
map.

Q. I  see.
Now, could you point to where the remaining pocket of 

homes is at this point, the ones that are a block from your 
office! A. Right in here.

Q. This area here! A. Right.
Q. Is this one of the houses! A. I think so.
Q. Is this one! A. I ’m not sure whether those proper­

ties have been torn down or not, to be real honest.
Those were the small rental units that I  referred to.
Q. Are some of them still there, do you think! A. I 

think so.

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419

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

Charles Longino—for  Defendants—Cross 

Q. All right.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, would it be permissible 
to mark on this map to show which area we’re talk­
ing about, because it’s going to become very relevant 
at this point?

— 181—

The Court: All right.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  redirect your attention now to an area which I am 
going to circle and mark with an X  on Defendants’ Exhibit 
Number 25, and I  specifically direct your attention, sir, to 
the homes that you say—some of which are still existing 
and some of them are owned and some of them are rented, 
to the best of your knowledge. A. Right.

Q. I further would like to ask you: Going back up here 
to the more northerly part of the map, to one, two, three, 
four, five standard structures,— A. Yes.

Q. —are they all still there? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. A. You see, these—I think these are homes, 

and this is industrial and commercial.
Q. All right.
Now, I  direct your attention to the southern part of the 

map marked—well, there are several markings of “C”. A. 
That is commercial.

—182—
Q. I take it this is commercial? A. Right.
Q. And are these still all existing? A. Yes.
Q. All right.
Now, I  bring you further to an area which I  am going to 

circle and mark with a Y, and I note from the legend of 
your map these are deficient structures.



420

Are these all taken down? A. Yes, sir.
That was the area for the jail.
Q. I  see.
Do you recall the race of the persons that occupied those 

homes?
Let me ask you specifically: Were these homes occupied 

by Negroes? A. I think all of them were. There may be 
—there was a very mixed area there.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, I  have no further 
questions.

The Court: Anything further with this witness?

—183—
Redirect Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. There were some additional homes on there that were 
purchased other than the Tuxedo Park purchases, Mr. 
Longino. A. Were what?

Q. We have referred, of course, to the Tuxedo Park pur­
chases and the purchases that were made across from the 
jail and the purchases north of the jail. As a matter of 
fact, we’ll say that there was a residence right there. A. 
Yes.

Q. Do you know what we call that house? A. That’s the 
Ada Chapman house.

Q. Has that been purchased by the City of Clarksdale? 
A. Yes.

Q. What’s that particular structure right there? A. 
That’s the American Legion Hut.

Q. Has that been purchased by the City of Clarksdale? 
A. It  has.

Q. Do you know wdiy they purchased that, Mr. Longino?

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421

A. For—our plan is for a new bridge across here in the 
future and for an approach to that bridge.

Q. In other words, Court Street couldn’t have gone
—184—

through there without the purchase of that property? A. 
Right.

Q. So, actually, there are one, two, three residences that 
we know of left there in that particular area? A. Those 
three are left; yes.

Q. As private ownerships? A. Right.
Q. But one of these houses is occupied; isn’t that right, 

sir? A. Yes.
Q. Is that or is it not occupied?
Is that Joe—Joe— A. Bill Ellis’s.
Q. Does Bill Ellis live there?
He doesn’t live there? A. No; he doesn’t live there. 

That’s his office.
There is a home back here.
Q. Is it occupied? A. I  drive by these, and I  know they 

are.
This I don’t know. It’s back behind Bill’s office. I  think 

it is occupied. I think—
Q. With that possible exception, there are not over three 

other homes there that are left that are occupied that
—185—

you know of? A. Three or four; yes.
Q. That you are positive? A. Right.

Mr. Luckett: That’s all.
The Court: Anything further with this witness?

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422

Recross Examination by Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  redirect your attention to the area circled and 
marked “X ”.

Your testimony not three minutes ago was you live one 
block or work one block from these areas,— A. Right.

Q. —from this area, that you know the homes are pres­
ently occupied and that they’re occupied by Negroes. A. 
No.

Mr. Luckett: No.
The Witness: No.
Mr. Luckett: He didn’t—
The Witness: No, sir.
The Court: I didn’t so understand his testimony, 

Mr. Aronson.
Mr. Aronson: Excuse me. I  am sorry.

— 186—

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Would you review your testimony with respect to the 
houses that are circled and marked “X ”? A. That’s an 
area that I  think—

As I  said, this is the street I  go down.
Q. I see. A. These houses I  know are occupied.
That’s why I  told Mr. Luckett I  wasn’t sure of this. 
These homes—I think one of them has been torn down 

and the others possibly are rental units.
Q. All right.
I ’m going to mark the three that you’re certain of as 

A, B— A. Now, this property may be vacant now. The 
lady that owned it died in the last—just a short time ago. 
It may be vacant—part of it, anyway. It ’s a duplex house.

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423

Q. I ’ll mark that D so as not to conflict with the C or 
commercial legend.

Now, your testimony is that that house which we marked 
or which you referred to as a duplex marked “D” may or 
may not be occupied—-the person recently died; you’re cer­
tain that the properties designated now on this map as

—187—
“A” and “B ”—and we’re still on Defendants’ Exhibit 25— 
are occupied and that they’re occupied by white persons! 
A. Yes.

Q. All right.
Now, this area that’s circled and marked with an X — 

what—

Mr. Aronson: I wonder if we might review. I 
think the testimony was clear on this, your Honor, 
at the time. I  wonder if we might ask the Reporter 
to go back—

The Court: Ask him about it and let’s see what he 
says now.

Mr. Aronson: All right.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  direct your attention to an area which is circled 
and marked “X ”— A. All right.

Q. —and which, according to the legend of this map, 
shows that it has four deficient structures and two stand­
ard structures. A. Yes.

Q. What is your present knowledge with respect to the 
occupancy of these homes! A. Well, they are occupied by

—1 8 8 -
whites, if they are all occupied, and that’s what I  testified 
before.

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424

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

Aaron Henry—for  Plaintiffs—Direct 

Q. And if they’re occupied is it—
You have no specific knowledge. What is your best 

guess'? Do you think they’re occupied? A. Yes.
Q. And do you think they have children or there are 

some children? A. Yes; I  think there are.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, may I  confer with 
counsel for one short moment?

The Court: You may.
Mr. Aronson: Thank you.
Your Honor, we have no further questions.
The Court: Anything further with this witness? 
Mr. Luckett: No, sir.
The Court: You may stand down.
May he be excused?
Mr. Aronson: I  don’t envision further use of Mr. 

Longino.
The Court: Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: No, sir.
The Court: You are excused, Mr. Longino.
Will you call your next witness for the plaintiffs?

—189—
Mr. Bell: Yes.
Aaron Henry.

A aron H en ry , a plaintiff, called by and in behalf of the 
plaintiffs and in his own behalf, having been first duly 
sworn, testified as fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. Bell:

Q. Your name and residence? A. My name is Aaron 
Henry. I live at 636 Page Street, Clarksdale, Mississippi.



425

Q. How long have you lived in Clarksdale? A. I ’ve 
lived in Coahoma County all my life. I  was born in Coa­
homa County.

Q. That would be a period of how many years! A. 
Forty-two.

Q. What line of work are you in! A. I ’m a pharmacist.
Q. How long? A. Since 1950.
Q. Are you plaintiff in this case? A. Yes.

—190—
Q. Are you otherwise involved in the civil rights move­

ment? A. Yes.
I ’m President of the local branch of Y A A CP and also 

President of the State Conference of NAACP.
Q. Would you briefly review your efforts to desegregate 

the Clarksdale public schools? A. Yes.
At the passage of the Supreme Court decision in 1954, 

in the month of May, the branch worked toward getting 
the local School Board to comply with what had become 
the law of the land. We filed a petition in August of 1954 
with 454 heads of families, and to this date the School 
Board has not answered this petition, requesting it to 
comply with the Supreme Court’s decision of ’54 and to be­
gin a method of desegregating the public schools.

This took place in ’54 and we had not heard from it in 
August of nineteen sixty—

Q. Well, do you have any indication that the first peti­
tion was received by the Board; and, if so, what was that 
indication? A. Well, yes. They never replied to us. How­
ever, the fact that the petition was filed—a story was car-

—191—
ried in the Clarksdale Press Register and the names of all 
of the persons who signed the petition were likewise car-

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426

H ea r in g  o f  A p r il 8, 1965

A aron. H en ry—fo r  P la in tiffs— D irect

ried, and their addresses, in the Clarksdale Press Register, 
notifying the public this had been done and these were the 
people who were doing it.

Q. Was there any result or any occurrence after the 
names were printed? A. Yes.

Several of the persons who signed the petition found it 
necessary, because of various pressures and intimidations, 
to withdraw their names.

Many of the persons had their—had credit denied to 
them at the banks because they had signed this particular 
petition.

Several persons were—

Mr. Luckett: If  the Court please, unless he knows 
that of his own knowledge, I  object to it.

By Mr. B ell:
Q. Do you know this of your own knowledge, Dr. Henry? 

A. Y es; I  know it of my own knowledge. People have told 
me—

Mr. Luckett: It is hearsay, if your Honor please, 
and I  object.

— 192—
The Court: The objection is sustained.
You may testify about what you know of your own 

knowledge, not what someone else told you.

By Mr. Bell:
Q. Did you make any follow-up in such a fashion on re­

ports of this nature that you would have personal knowl­
edge of some of these situations you’re telling us about?



427

A. Well, the only knowledge I would have would he reports 
that were filed in my office by persons who were so vic­
timized and, of course, the Court has ruled out—

Q. I ask you whether, if there were such reports, they 
were made at your request as head of the branch. A. Yes; 
they were made at my request.

I  advised any person that was intimidated in any way 
because of participating in this action to so report.

Q. And did you receive such reports? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there another immediate effort or was there not 

another immediate effort made to contact the School Board? 
A. No.

We didn’t make another effort to contact the School
—1 9 3 -

Board until close to the time of the school term in 1963, 
I  think it was.

Q. Well, then, let me ask you whether there was a tend­
ency on the part of the community to become more or less 
active as far as pushing for school desegregation after the 
first petition was printed in the newspaper. A. Yes, sir; 
there was.

Q. Was what? A. There was less activity and action by 
the Negro citizens of the community to push for school 
desegregation after the petition was filed in 1954 and the 
names appeared in the newspaper and the experiences that 
people had because of it.

Q. What did you do then? A. Well, we—
Q. What was the next action that wTas taken? A. The 

next action, the next official action, that was taken—we 
filed another petitinn in 1963 with the parents of 25 chil­
dren, I  believe, that were involved, and this was done in 
the form of a petition. We again petitioned the School

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428

Board to acquiesce to the Supreme Court’s decision of 1954 
and begin a plan of desegregation of the public schools, and 
this petition had no reply either except it was—it became

—194—
a newspaper article and the names of the parents and the 
children that were involved here were likewise published.

Q. And am I  correct that then this suit was filed after 
that petition was filed! A. Well, after the petition was 
filed—and we asked for a reply within a specific amount 
of time, and, as I  recall, no reply came from the Board, and 
then through my office we petitioned the Legal Defense 
Fund of the National Association for the Advancement of 
Colored People, NAACP, to institute a suit in our behalf 
to desegregate the public schools.

Q. Well, now, in addition to your efforts to desegregate 
the public schools, have you or have you not been involved 
in any other desegregation efforts in the Clarksdale area; 
and, if so, what is the present status of those efforts as 
to other facilities! A. Well, yes. The local branch has 
filed suit against the city and the county to desegregate 
the courtrooms, to desegregate the rest rooms in the court­
rooms, to desegregate the public parks, the playgrounds, 
the swimming pools, the hospitals, the library. That was 
taken in the name of J .  D. Rayford and H. Y. Hackett, and

—195—
after the passage of the Supreme Court—after the passage 
of the Civil Rights Bill of 1964, the local branch participated 
in an effort to desegregate privately owned public facilities.

Q. Can you give us the current status of these efforts!
What has been changed, if anything! A. The motion 

that was filed by Hackett and Rayford—this particular case 
has not been resolved. It’s in this Court.

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429

Q. What case was that? A. That’s Hackett and Rayford 
versus Coahoma—

Q. I  mean: Involving what? A. Involving the desegre­
gation of the courtrooms, rest rooms in courtrooms, play­
grounds, swimming pools, parks, hospitals and the library.

Q. Can you tell us whether there has been any change?
Have any of these facilities been, in fact, desegregated? 

A. Yes.
The Carnegie Public Library has desegregated. Of 

course, they have taken all the chairs out.

Mr. Luckett: If the Court please,—
Mr. Maynard: If  the Court please,—

—196—
Mr. Luckett : —we object—
Mr. Maynard: —we object.
Mr. Luckett: —to any testimony—
Mr. Maynard: This has nothing to do with the 

question—
The Court: Wait just a minute. One at a time, 

gentlemen.
Mr. Maynard: I  thought I was first, but go ahead.
Mr. Luckett: Go ahead.
On behalf of the City School Board, we object to 

any testimony about the desegregation or the situa­
tion with reference to courtrooms, either in the 
county or the city, or the library or the hospital or 
what-not. We don’t think it’s pertinent to this par­
ticular problem as to how we have drawn the school 
lines of the City of Clarksdale and whether we have 
taken race into consideration.

The Court: Mr. Bell.

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430

Mr. Bell: As you know, your Honor—
Mr. Maynard: Wait just one moment.
Mr. B ell: All right.
Mr. Maynard: On behalf of the City of Clarks- 

dale, we object, your Honor, to bringing in through 
this person the city’s integration question with refer-

—197—
ence to the City Hall, the library and the various 
other city facilities. We see that it has nothing to 
do with the question now before the Court.

The Court: What bearing does that have on this 
case, Mr. Bell?

Mr. Bell: This, your Honor: Not only are we con­
cerned with the aspect of the plan bearing on the 
zone lines; we are also concerned with the aspect of 
the plan concerning the speed and, as the courts have 
said many times, each case has to be decided on its 
own facts with reference to such matters as the speed 
at which the plan should continue, and in this regard 
generally the other community situation is observed 
to determine what kind of progress has been made 
in desegregating other facilities.

We’re in an area where all public facilities have 
been desegregated except the schools. Perhaps a dif­
ferent standard as far as speed is required than in 
an area where absolutely nothing has been desegre­
gated and the schools are the first thing, and for that 
reason I  think it’s helpful to have some background 
—and I  wasn’t going to dwell on it—as to just where 
we are in Clarksdale today.

The Court: I frankly can’t see how this has any 
bearing on this case.

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

C olloquy



H ea r in g  o f  A p r il  8, 1965

Colloquy

—198—
Mr. Bell: Well, the only justification for going at 

a grade a year rather than desegregating the schools 
entirely is that going at this slow pace there’s better 
able to be an adjustment by the community, by the 
schools, as to what is going on. We always disagree 
with this, but nevertheless we wind up with it each 
time.

Now, by—
The Court: You actually, according to that the­

ory, are trying to get into the record of this case 
evidence that would tend to slow down the pace of 
desegregation of schools, aren’t you?

Mr. B ell: Not over-all, your Honor. I think if 
you will let me tie it up we’ll show that the situation 
in Clarksdale is such that unless all grades are or­
dered desegregated—the situation is such that at 
least all pupils in all grades who seek desegregated 
educations should be able to get them and, as I  say, 
I  think that very shortly—

The Court: What the status of these other facili­
ties might be or might have been with respect to 
desegregation or segregation would not, I  can assure 
you, have any bearing on my disposition of this case 
or the speed by which the system will be required to 
desegregate.

—199—
Mr. Bell: Well, I would like to, unless you’re go­

ing to sustain the objection to it, get in the record 
the facts as to the present status of desegregation, 
if I  may.

The Court: You still haven’t convinced me that it 
has any relevance.



432

I ’d like for you to try again, because I  don’t want 
to foreclose you. I  want you to make a perfectly ade­
quate record.

Mr. Bell: Well, I  think that what we’re going to 
try to do here is to show that the desegregation of 
any public facilities in the City of Clarksdale has not 
come easy, that those who have sought to obtain 
desegregation of these facilities have not had an easy 
time, and that this will bear on this particular plan 
in regards to possible alternatives to the plan as it 
is presently drawn. In other words, if this plan is 
not going to be approved and we can show the zone 
lines as drawn by the Board cannot be the sole basis 
on which desegregation is obtained, then we turn to 
the question as to how persons seeking desegregated 
educations are to obtain them, and if we follow some 
of the current precedents it would be on the basis of, 
“Well, we’ll allow those in a certain number of grades 
to obtain desegregated educations upon request,” and

— 200—

the thrust of a part of this testimony that we’re try­
ing to put on now is to the effect that in the area of 
Clarksdale the number of such persons is likely to 
be very small based on (1) the general condition of 
Negroes in the community and (2) the pressures 
generally placed on those who seek to make change 
in this particular area, civil rights.

The Court: I frankly can’t see how it has any 
bearing on the issues in this case and the problems 
that will be placed in the lap of this Court when this 
hearing is concluded, but you may go ahead and 
develop your record.

H ea rin g  o f  A p r il  8, 1966

C olloquy



433

But let’s get on to—
Mr. B ell: All right, your Honor.
The question you were answering was what was 

the status, which facilities are open, and I  think you 
were talking about or starting to talk about the 
courtrooms.

The "Witness: Yes.
The courtrooms, both city and county, are now 

desegregated. Negroes can sit anywhere they want 
to in the courtrooms. Of course, the rest rooms in 
the courthouse are still segregated.

The—

By Mr. B ell:

Q. How about the pools? A. The pools are closed. No-
— 201-

body can use them.
Q. You told us— A. The pools were closed last year. 

I  don’t know whether they will be open this year or not.

The Court: What is this you are talking about?
The Witness: Public playgrounds; swimming

pools.
The Court: Swimming pools?
The Witness: Yes, sir.

By Mr. Bell:

Q. How about the hospital?
You were about to tell us something about that. A. Yes. 

The waiting room at the hospital has been desegregated, 
except they moved the chairs out and nobody is able to sit 
down while they are waiting in the hospital.

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434

Q. I ’ll ask you whether or not, Dr. Henry, you come in 
contact both in your drugstore and in your civil rights ac­
tivity with a sizable percentage of the Negroes in the 
Clarksdale community. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with the type of work they do, the 
type of jobs they hold? A. Yes, sir.

A great majority of the people who live, Negro people
— 202—

who live, in the community of Clarksdale are pretty much 
agrarian employed. They’re day laborers in the plantation, 
in the farm system.

A great majority of the people who live in Coahoma 
County live out in the rural area, and hence they are em­
ployed in the area of farming.

Q. How about—A. Some are employed, however, in the
industrial plants.

The Cooper Tire and Rubber Company has Negroes em­
ployed. American Hardware, Stephens-Adamson and the 
new Tarizan plant all have some Negroes employed.

But, by and large, the great majority of the Negroes who 
are employed are employed either in the service industry as 
maids, in the homes, or as laborers or as farm workers.

Q. Tell us, if you know, from your own knowledge, the 
average salaries that these people make in these different 
lines of work.

Mr. Duckett: If  the Court please, I just submit 
that’s going much too far afield and I  can’t see why 
we should have to take—

The Court: I ’m concerned—

Mr. Duckett: —that sort of record on—

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435

The Court: I ’m concerned, Mr. Bell, with the 
length of time we are spending on this case already. 
The morning’s activity developed rather slowly, it 
seemed to me.

Mr. Bell: Yes, your Honor, and there are only a 
few questions along this line. I  promise I ’m not go­
ing to take a long period of time. It ’s just a quick 
summary.

The Court: How much more evidence do you an­
ticipate that you have?

Mr. Bell: After this witness,—I  have only 10 or 
12 more questions for him—-I have two expert wit­
nesses, whose testimony would probably take per­
haps 30 minutes apiece, and then I, of course, would 
have to put on the Superintendent again in view of 
the problems we had on the deposition and review 
that material, plus a few questions of the Chairman 
of the Board, and that would be our case.

The Court: What does the income of people have 
to do—

Mr. B ell: It gets back—
The Court: —with whether they will be permitted 

to attend a desegregated school or not?
Mr. Bell: Well, the problem is that we want to 

show here or to prepare here—of course, it’s not go-
—204—

ing to have any relevance if this Court is going to 
find that the plan of the Board is proper and meets 
all of the requirements, and that’s it—

The Court: I  don’t know what I ’m going to find.
Mr. Bell: That’s correct, and we don’t know either, 

and it’s for that reason that we’re trying to prepare

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436

the record in such a way that we’re able to argue to 
the Court (1) that the Clarksdale Board should be 
required to draw up a new set of zones and assign 
everyone according to those zones, but a group of 
fairly drawn zones, and that because of the status of 
Negroes in this community that providing them as 
an alternative to the plan that the Board has sub­
mitted with the type of desegregation plan which has 
been approved in other sections will not be providing 
them with a desegregation plan at all because their 
status in the community as far as the economic sit­
uation and all is concerned is just so poor and the 
opposition to desegregation generally is so great that 
there will be no choice and there will in all likeli­
hood, based on everything we know, be no desegrega­
tion. So, while it may seem far afield, it’s very, very 
vital to our case to establish—and we’re doing this 
all over because of the problems that we have with 
this freedom of choice type of plan that the courts

— 205-

over our objections have been approving—that in 
many areas, particularly in a small community,— 
sometimes in large residential, large urban communi­
ties the situation is a little better, but in a small com­
munity such as Clarksdale—where the Negroes par­
ticularly have just come in from the farms, only a 
few of them have jobs earning any kind of money 
at all, that their status is just very, very tenuous 
and that they do not have the kind of economic or 
any other kind of background, organization or what 
have you that would enable them to, with propriety, 
exercise a freedom of choice to go to a desegregated

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437

school if this is the kind of desegregation plan that 
is approved.

So, it kind of leads into the argument that we 
would make at the end of the testimony: (1) That 
the Board has maintained all along that they are 
opposed to transfers, that they want to assign people 
because this is the orderly way, and we are in agree­
ment that this is the way it should be done. However, 
we don’t think that the lines they have drawn here 
are effective either in meeting the requirements of 
the Supreme Court as far as desegregation is con­
cerned or of meeting the requirements as far as edu­
cational standards for drawing zones are concerned.

Now, assuming we are able to convince you of this,
—206—

we are arguing that or will argue that the Board 
should be required to draw a new set of zones that 
do meet the constitutional standards and do meet 
the constitutional standards, and the reason we’re 
arguing they should have to be required to file this 
new set of zones is because the freedom of choice 
type of operation that has been approved in other 
areas will not bring about desegregation here.

The Court: Timewise, I  think we will gain by 
letting you go ahead. You may do so.

Mr. Bell: I was asking you, if you know, if you 
could give us a little idea what Negroes actually earn 
per week or per day and some of the types of work.

The Witness: Well, the salaries range greatly. 
In the better paid positions of school teachers and 
factory workers, from four to $5,000 a year, and per­
haps less or more; but the great bulk of the people

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employed in the service industries earn from fifteen 
to $20 a week as maids and as cooks and this type 
of thing, and the day laborers in actually the area of 
employment where a majority of our people are em­
ployed—this work finds itself available only during 
cotton picking and cotton chopping. Of course, 
cotton chopping starts about perhaps the middle of 
April or mavbe the first of May and lasts maybe

—207—
through June. I  think last year they paid two to 
three dollars a day for this particular kind of work, 
and, of course, all people who go to the fields make 
the same money. Cotton picking starts about the 
middle of August and perhaps lasts through Novem­
ber or to November, and they pay from two to three 
dollars per hundred for picking the cotton, and, of 
course, the average person would earn about, say, 
anywhere from three to nine dollars a day, depend­
ing on the amount he would pick.

By Mr. B ell:

Q. Now, we’ve had a lot of discussion about housing con­
ditions in the City of Clarksdale. Would you just give us 
a quick summary of the nature and location of Negro hous­
ing in the City of Clarksdale? A. Well, we have a method 
of designating houses a little bit different than the technical 
terms the Court has been using. We have an area called 
the upper brickyard where the Negroes live, the brickyard, 
the roundyard and Riverton.

Q. Now, where are these locations? A. I  can come 
down to the map and show you.

The Court: You may step down.

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—208—
By Mr. Bell:

Q. Now, you are looking at a copy of the map that was 
introduced in the earlier trial which shows the City of 
Clarksdale and all of the school zones on the map, and I 
point to the Illinois Central Railroad track that bisects 
the town and ask you whether Negroes live generally to the 
north of that line— A. To the south.

Q. -—or to the south. A. To the south; yes.
Q. Now, in terms of the various zones that are the ele­

mentary zones that are written in brown crayon, would you 
indicate these various locations where most of the Negroes 
live? A. Yes.

This beginning here is what we call the upper brickyard. 
Negroes live in this area.

Q. Now, would that be in Zone E-l-A? A. That’s in 
Zone E-l-A.

Also, Negroes live in what is called the brickyard area. 
This is in Zone E-l-A and Zone E-l-B.

This—
—209—

Q. Okay. A. In both.
Q. Yes. A. This, the brickyard, is divided into both of 

these areas.
Q. I  see. A. And in what we call the roundvard area, 

which is Thirteenth—well, really, it begins up at 61 high­
way and it takes in Eighth—rather, it takes in Tenth, 
Eleventh, Twelfth, Thirteenth and all the way through 
Eighteenth Street, where the new Booker Washington, the 
new George—no—-Booker T. Washington School is down 
here, because this is Zone E-2-A.

And there are Negroes who live in the Riverton area, 
which is Zone E-2-B.



440

Q. Now, tell us a little bit about the nature of the hous­
ing for Negroes in all of these areas. A. Well, it ranges 
from very poor to pretty good.

There are several areas in what we call the downtown 
area, which is this area here, that has houses—

Of course, I ’m referring to along the Ashton line. Of 
course, Commerce runs perpendicular to Ashton, just off 
Fourth Street.

Q. This is in the eastern end of Zone E-2-B ; is that
—210—

correct? A. No.
E-2-A.
Q. Oh, in E-2-A. A. E-2-A.
Q. I  see. A. There is another area in E-2-A—that’s just 

behind the First Baptist Church—that’s called Oil Mill Al­
ley, which is just as dilapidated as anything they have in 
Tuxedo Junction or other communities that have been con­
demned.

Q. Is this the Tuxedo Park"? A. Park. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with the houses located in that area? 

A. Yes.
Q. Are you also familiar with the houses located out along 

northeast Second that were deannexed? A. Yes.
Q. Now, indicate whether or not, in your opinion, some 

of the housing in these areas that you are mentioning now 
was of equal— A. In my opinion, equally poor, the only

— 211-

difference being that these houses have plumbing inside and 
the ones that were testified today had no inside plumbing.

Q. Now, before you retake the stand, I  will ask you if 
you are familiar at all with some of the areas north of 
the Illinois Central tracks which are designated here in the

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441

eelmentary zones as E-3-A, E-4-A, A-4-B and E-4-C and 
ask you whether or not you know any Negroes who are liv­
ing in those areas at the present time. A. I  don’t know 
of any. That does not say exactly they are not, but I  am 
not familiar with any Negroes living in those areas.

Q. Do you know whether or not, looking at particularly 
Zone E-4-B and E-4-C—do you know whether or not Ne­
groes have sought to move into those areas at all! A. I  
doubt it. I  don’t know, but I  feel almost positive no Negroes 
have tried to move into those areas.

Q. Now, what would be the basis of that? A. Well, the 
mores, the customs of segregation in housing, that whites, 
white people, live in one area, the Negroes live in another.

Q. Do you know of any laws or anything that require 
Negroes to live in one section or another? A. No; I  don’t 
know of a law, of ourse.

—212—
I would feel that most of us believe that there are laws 

that would prevent Negroes from living there. I  don’t 
know.

Well, this is—the segregation laws of the state have been 
of such a nature that they have kept Negroes and whites 
separated as such, so that we would feel that there are, if 
there are not.

I  have heard testimony today there were not. Maybe in­
tegrated housing will be one of our new projects of the 
NAACP.

Q. Okay.
I ’ll ask you the basis for your own participation in the 

school desegregation suit, Dr. Henry. A. Well, my daugh­
ter, Rebecca, is growing up, and it is my feeling that the 
educational qualifications in what has been classified as the

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white school system offers advantages over what is the 
Negro school system, and I think that this follows through 
the entire segregated school system of the state, that the 
facilities for Negroes are inferior to those for whites.

Q. I ask yon also whether or not you are familiar with 
the Jackson desegregation plan, which is generally referred

— 213—

to as a freedom of choice plan. A. Yes; I ’m familiar 
with it.

Q.Now, based on your knowledge of the situation, par­
ticularly as far as Negroes are concerned in the City of 
Clarksdale, would you indicate whether or not a similar 
type of plan would bring about a great deal or a little 
desegregation in the Clarksdale area! A. Not not; not 
with the present set of conditions under which we operate.

Q. Would you explain your answer on that! A. Yes.
In the Jackson community there are factors that are not 

present here. Number 1, you have a larger community and 
a larger number of Negroes that could possibly participate.

You have a higher medium income of the Negro com­
munity in Jackson than you have here.

There are these factors, too:

You have a Chamber of Commerce in Jackson that 
have appealed to the community to accept the desegre­
gation of the schools, as citizens ought, because this is 
the law of the land.

We have a woman’s group, who are a group of in­
terested citizens outside the Chamber of Commerce,

— 214—

called the Save Our Schools Committee that is working 
toward acceptance of desegregation in public schools 
without difficulty.

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We have none of those factors going for ns here. 
The business community has not taken a stand as far 
as school desegregation is concerned for compliance of 
the law. We have no citizens unit organized particu­
larly among the responsible white citizens to help pro­
mote an acceptance of the law, and these are two 
factors that I  think would be very necessary before we 
could have any kind of results with a public—rather, 
with a freedom of choice plan that is in vogue in Jack- 
son now.

Mr. Bell: Just one second, please.
No further questions.
The Court: Reserve your cross examination until 

after the noon recess.
Court is in recess until 20 minutes of four.

(Thereupon, at 3:21 p. m., a 19-minute recess was 
taken.)

The Court: You may be seated.
— 215-

Cross Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. Dr. Henry, I ’m confused about these statements. The 
last statement you made, as I  understood it, was that if 
freedom of choice were given to the children of Clarksdale 
to attend any school in the school district there would be 
very few Negro children who would attend, we’ll say, 
schools north of the railroad. A. Would be very few 
Negro children; yes.

Q. That’s right.
And yet you said in the beginning of your testimony in 

1955 a petition was filed bearing five hundred and some 
odd names— A. No.

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444

Q. —for the desegregation— A. Four hundred and 
fifty-four.

Q. —454 names for the desegregation of the school sys­
tem.

The Court: I  understood him to say that it was in 
1954.

The Witness: Fifty-four.
Mr. Luckett: Fifty-five.
The Court: Fifty-four, wasn’t it?

—216—
The Witness: It might have been ’54. Fifty-four 

or ’55,
Mr. Luckett: I  think I  have a copy of it.
It was August the 1st, 1955.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. I  take it those people wanted to have desegregated 
school facilities here in Clarksdale? A. Yes, but the reac­
tion of the community was so adverse it caused many people 
to fall out.

Q. And you don’t think they are of the same opinion at 
this present time? A. I  think they are of the same opin­
ion, but the intimidations and economic reprisals we have 
been subjected to have caused many people not to continue. 

Q. I  see.
You are, as you told the Court, the father of one of the 

plaintiffs in the lawsuit? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does your child go to a public school? A. No. She 

goes to a parochial school.
Q. Has she always gone to a private school? A. Yes. 
Q. I  take it, then, you don’t question the right of any

- 2 1 7 -
parent to send his child to a private school ?

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Mr. Bell: Well, I  don’t know—
What is the relevance of that?
I  think—
The Court: Now, counsel, it is customary in this 

Court if you have an objection to state it to the 
Court and not make remarks to counsel.

Mr. Bell: I ’m sorry, your Honor.
I  was trying to say I  object to the question as not 

relevant.
The Court: The objection is overruled.
The Witness: No; I don’t question that right.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. You’ve also told about some substandard housing 
south of the railroad track,—I think in Commerce Alley or 
some place like that, which is substandard and probably un­
fit, really— A. Sure.

Q. —for human habitation, is it not? A. That’s true, 
but it’s still there.

Q. Don’t you think it ought to be condemned and done 
away with? A. Yes.

—218—
Q. So, you agree with slum clearance in theory, do you 

not? A. Yes.
I object to it when it is done to extract citizens of one 

race from one particular section of town.
Q. Well, in theory, though, you do approve of the con­

demnation of unfit dwellings? A. Yes, in theory.
Q. Did you— A. However, the practice—the reason for 

which it is done many times could alter that.
Q. I  see.
It all depends upon where the unfit habitation is—if it’s 

in a white neighborhood, you are not in favor of having it

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condemned; but if it is in the Negro neighborhood you are 
in favor of having it condemned? A. No. That is not the 
issue.

The issue here appears to me to be the housing that was 
removed—

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The Court: Now, he didn’t ask you about the is­
sue. He asked you about your views.

The Witness: There are circumstances that alter 
cases, and the circumstances that are involved here

—219—
would cause me to think differently, one way one 
time and another way another time.

Q. Had these houses in Tuxedo Park been south of the 
railroad track, you would have had no objection whatso­
ever to their destruction? A. No.

Q. Is that right? A. That’s right.
Q. Do you question the right of Mr. Kantor to sell his 

property to whomsoever he chooses?

The Court: Now, wTho is this, Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: He’s an owner of one of the pieces 

of property and one of the witnesses summoned by 
the plaintiff.

The Witness: Well—
Mr. Luckett: I  don’t know which particular prop­

erty, but some particular property that was involved 
in one of these purchases that are being criticized.

The Witness: I  think there are times when a per­
son owns public property, a public business—that 
there are situations where he may not choose his 
customers, that he must sell to anybody, that he may 
not be discriminatory in that regard.



447

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—220—
By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Insofar1 as this particular house is concerned, it was 
rented to Negro tenants in the City of Clarksdale—and we 
have no law about open occupancy in this state that I  know 
of.

Do you question Mr. Kantor’s right to sell that property 
to whomsoever he chooses? A. Well, I  don’t know about 
the law you mentioned, whether we have an open occupancy 
law or not. I ’m not sure.

Q. But do you question his right to sell his house? A. 
Yes.

Q. You do? A. Yes.
Q. On what ground? A. On the theory that a man may 

not discriminate in disposing of property in many instances 
where this is legal and, of course, there are some instances 
where there is a moral question.

I  do think in the disposition of property that one should 
not be able to discriminate because of race or color to whom 
he sells it or to whom he does not sell it. If  he puts it on 
the market, he should sell it to whomsoever wishes to pur­
chase it. Therefore, I  do believe there are times when a

- 221-

man may not sell his property to a person of his choice.
Q. Well, in this particular instance it was sold to the 

City of Clarksdale.
Do you question his right to sell it to the City of Clarks­

dale?
The City of Clarksdale doesn’t have a race.

Mr. Bell: I  don’t think—
Excuse me, your Honor.



448

I  object.
I  don’t think there’s any testimony on direct re­

garding Dr. Henry’s disagreement with the right of 
any real estate person to sell the property to the City 
of Clarksdale.

I  think—I ’m a little confused, and I think the wit­
ness in his responses may be somewhat confused also.

The Court: We’ve opened up an awfully wide field 
at your insistence.

Mr. B e ll: All right, your Honor.
The Court: Therefore, the objection is overruled.
The Witness: No. I  think selling it to the city is 

all right.
—222—

By Mr. Puckett:
Q. Do you think the county had the right to buy the 

property next to the jail? A. Yeah.
Q. Suppose I told you that there were Negroes living in 

this area right in here. Would you be surprised? A. 
What’s the street designations?

Q, Well, it’s on School Street.
Do you know where School Street is? A. Yes. I t ’s in the 

Hillcrest area.
Q. You’d be surprised? A. No. I  suppose there are 

some.
Frankly, I  was surprised to see where some Negroes are 

living on Cypress Street, and I ’m not too sure of their 
grade levels, but they are assigned to Myrtle Hall School 
and Cypress is in the heart of Oakhurst.

Q. Are they in the first or second grade? A. I ’m not 
sure, but I  know they are not assigned to the school nearest 
their home.

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449

Q. Do you understand the plan requires any assignment 
other than the first or second graders? A. No; I  don’t 
understand the plan does.

Of course, you are speaking generally about where Ne-
—223—

groes live and I  don’t think the Negroes you are talking 
about are first or second graders.

Q. Well, I  just asked you—
You told your attorney on direct examination that no 

Negroes lived in this section of town. A. I  object to your 
use of the word “niggers”.

Q. I  didn’t say “niggers”. I  said “Negroes”. A. Well, 
I ’m sorry.

Q. I  never used that word, neither before 1954 or since. 
A. Well, it sounded like you were saying “nigger”.

Q. Well, you have put those phonetics on that. I did not. 
A. All right.

Q. Does that clear it up? A. Would you repeat the ques­
tion?

Q. I  understood you to tell your attorney that no Ne­
groes— A. Thank you.

Q. —lived in that section of Clarksdale. A. I  didn’t say 
definitely. I  said I  would be surprised to learn if they were.

Q. All right.
—2 2 4 -

Do you know that some Negroes live in this section of 
Clarksdale known as Zone E-3-A? A. I  suppose they are.

There were Negroes living in each zone in the first and 
second grade when the plan was presented to the Court, but 
by the time school opened they had all be moved out. So, 
the fact Negroes live there now has no bearing on where 
they will be when it comes down to the time to go to school.

Q. I am talking about as of today.

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450

Do yon know Negroes do live in this particular zone? A. 
There probably are, Mr. Luckett, Negroes living there, but 
what’s going to be the question when the school desegrega­
tion plan—

The Court: Now’ we’ve had enough of this. Let’s 
don’t have any more arguments between counsel and 
the witness.

Answer the questions, and if you want to explain 
you’ll be given an opportunity to.

By Mr. Lu ckett:

Q. Now, Riverton is what we call a mixed neighborhood, 
is it not? A. Yes.

—225—
Q. At least half of the area over there is occupied by 

dwellings where white people live? A. That’s right.
Q. And about half of the area, although a great propor­

tion, is occupied by dwellings where Negroes live? A. Yes.
Q. They live there in peace and harmony, do they not? 

A. Well, it depends on what you mean by “peace”.
Q. Well, that’s semantics. I  thought everybody knew 

what “peace and harmony” meant.
Well, this Zone E-l-A, that is, upon the southeasterly 

part of town, is what you’d call a mixed area, is it not? A. 
What are the street designations?

Q. Well, there are any number of streets in there. A. 
If  you could name a few, I ’d know the neighborhood you are 
talking about.

Q. Well, part of it is Cooper Tire and Rubber Company. 
A. I  know where that is ; yes.

Q. But that is a mixed neighborhood, is it not? A. Yes.

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— 226—

Q. As a matter of fact, there are mixed neighborhoods 
all throughout this southerly part of Clarksdale, are there 
not? A. To some degree. To a minor degree.

Q. Is it not the position of the plaintiffs in this case that 
the key to meaningful desegregation is a nondiscriminatory 
drafting of uniracial school zone lines?

Mr. Bell: Now, we object to that.
The Witness: I ’m not going to get trapped into 

that one. I  don’t know.
Mr. Bell: We object to that question as being a 

legal issue for the Court to resolve. The witness 
wouldn’t know.

The Court: The objection is sustained.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Well, are you familiar with the complaint in the case? 
A. I ’m familiar with the complaint that the school system in 
Clarksdale is segregated and we’re trying to desegregate 
it, if that’s what you mean.

Q. Are you familiar with the complaint that you filed on 
behalf of your child and others in this particular ease that 
we’re hearing today? A. Yes.

— 227—

Q. Don’t you know that your prayer is for the drawing 
of these unified zone lines?

Mr. B ell: Now, we make the same objection, your 
Honor.

I don’t think he has to be intimately familiar with 
the—



452

The Court: The objection is sustained.
The Court knows, of course, that the complaint was 

drawn by the attorneys and not by this witness.
Mr. Luckett: That’s all, your Honor.
The Court: Anything further with this witness? 
Mr. Bell: No further questions, your Honor.
The Court: You may stand down.
The Witness: Thank you.
The Court: Will you call your next witness,

please?
Mr. Bell: Reginald Neuwien.
He’s in the plaintiffs’ witness room.
The Court: How do you spell this witness’s name, 

Mr. Bell?
Mr. B ell: I  believe it’s N-e-u-w-i-e-n.

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R eginald Neu w ien , a w itness called by and in behalf of 

the plaintiffs, having been first duly sworn, testified as 
fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. B e ll :

Q. Would you state your full name, please? A. Regi­
nald Neuwien.

Q. Would you spell the last name? A. N-e-u-w-i-e-n.
Q. Your residence, Mr. Neuwien? A. I  live at 2000 East 

Jefferson Boulevard, South Bend, Indiana.
Q. What is your occupation? A. My occupation is edu­

cational research.
At the present time I ’m the director of a study of the 

Catholic schools in the United States, based at the Univer­
sity of Notre Dame.

Q. What is your background in education?



453

What experience in this field have you had—jobs, other 
surveys and so forth! A. I ’ve been in public education for 
36 years, and the last 13 years of my work directly in the 
public schools.

1 was Superintendent of the Public Schools in Stamford,
—229—

Connecticut, and following that I  worked at the Educational 
Research Council of Greater Cleveland in Cleveland, Ohio, 
and I  have been for three years m my present position.

In the Educational Research Council my work was Direc­
tor of Administrative Research, and in a strong fashion I  
worked as adviser to school superintendents, and I com­
pleted 15 school system surveys of the schools in the 
northern Ohio area.

Q. What did these surveys involve!
What was the nature of your work there, just briefly! 

A. There were two types of surveys. The first type was a 
study of the future needs of an individual school system, 
and these in our jargon are referred to as projection stud­
ies. They were done for a future 10-year period in terms 
of the financing, building and staffing needs of the school 
systems, and then an expansion of that same kind of work 
is referred to as an evaluative approach to survey, and this 
was evaluating the quality of the educational program and 
the effectiveness of the school operation.

Q. Would you indicate whether or not the work you did
—230—

and have just described is similar to the work that you have 
been requested by the plaintiffs to do with regard to the 
Clarksdale school system! A. I  think that the same kinds 
of skills are necessary.

Q. How about your current work! Would you just give 
us a brief summary of the work in which you are presently

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involved and indicate whether or not there are also con­
nections between that work and the work yon have been 
asked to do by the plaintiffs? A. The survey or study of 
Catholic education, which is the title of the program for 
which I am now the director at the university, is an attempt 
to get fundamental statistical data about each of the Catho­
lic elementary and secondary schools in the United States.

There are approximately 13,000 elementary schools and 
some 2400 secondary schools, and they are located in 145 
diocese covering the entire country, and in this work we are 
doing a national survey which will produce a profile of these 
schools, what they are and whom they serve and who staffs 
them and the kind of training and background the staff 
people have; and then we also have done depth studies in 
13 of the 145 diocese where we have gone in and visited

—231—
with the schools and conducted a large number of activities 
which are really evaluative in character.

Q. Do you supervise a staff of some sort in this work! 
A. Yes. I  have a full-time staff, which has changed because 
I  needed specialists at various times. I  didn’t need—I had 
at one time four sociologists, and we didn’t need four soci­
ologists for three years. So, the staff has changed, and 
there have been as many as 10 full-time people, and then 
we use specialists for special problems.

Q. What will be the results of this study?
Will there be a book— A. Yes.
Q. —or any kind of publication? A. We’re getting 

ready for our first publication now7. We hope we’re going to 
publish in the middle of June.

Q. Now, would you review for the Court the background 
and the preparation that you have made as far as the

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Clarksdale school system is concerned for the testimony 
we’re asking you to give today? A. Well, I  was—while I  
worked in Cleveland at the Educational Eesearch Council 
one of my associates there, who was Director of Basic Ee­
search, is Dr. Myron Lieberman, who is now at Ehode

—2 3 2 -
Island State College, and he approached me . some two 
months ago—more than that probably—and wondered if I 
would be willing to consider rendering this kind of service 
here, and I  was then approached by your organization, and 
I  accepted the opportunity and I  came here early in Febru­
ary and spent one day, which had been preceded by a study 
of the first interrogatory results, and also preceded by a 
study of the maps of the Clarksdale school district with 
school identifications and other information that was made 
available through your office, and then I  spent a day here 
viewing the Clarksdale schools from the outside and getting- 
some idea of the location and the relationships of these 
schools one to another, and so that it was not just a matter 
of reading about what went on, and then I  have had the 
results of the second interrogatory and I  have spent time 
and study on them, for about a total of 60 work hours is my 
rough estimate.

Q. Would you give us an idea of what familiarity you 
have developed with the Board’s program, particularly as 
it relates to the school zone lines and the general desegrega­
tion plan that was submitted, as a result of study and ob­
servations that you have made? A. Well, I  mean the first 
opportunity for a judgment that I  had was in terms of the

- 2 3 3 -
plan which was originally proposed and drawn up in the 
form of the new district lines, and then also the fact that

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while the new district lines were drawn the program, in 
order to effect desegregation, was not effective, and the 
study also indicated that there would be a possibility, it 
seemed, from the information and knowledge that I  have 
been able to gain, which has some limitation certainly, hut 
nevertheless against that kind of a background it seemed, 
that some maybe rethinking of the redistricting or a redis­
tricting plan might prove more effective in its results.

Q. Well, now, in reaching these conclusions, would you 
make reference in some detail to the various facts and data 
that you reviewed with reference to zone lines, how they 
were drawn, and feeling free to come to the map where we 
have all of the school zone lines located? A. Well, I  would 
point out that, first of all, there are certain general princi­
ples which I  would believe, from my own experience and 
from my own activity, might have an effect on an original 
districting of any school district, whether it were redistrict­
ing or whether it were a projection into the future, and 
some of the basic principles are that in dividing the school 
district there would have to be clearer and basic informa-

-—234—
tion, which I  would assume would be in the hands of the 
School Board and the school administration, about the total, 
over-all population, what the kind of mobility there is exist­
ing in the community, movement in and out, the migration, 
in-migration, what the birth rates are and have been in the 
past, so projections could be made about how many young­
sters are going to be available for school five years or six 
years from now, and these would be population studies.

Then some of the other basic principles are that in—for 
example, that in the location of the school—I mean such as

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a school located in E-2-A—that means it’s what I  would re­
fer to as a perimeter location, so that—

Q. How would you define that? A. Well, it’s on the edge 
of the school district, so that its service value has to extend 
a great distance away from a school in order to effectively 
use the capacity of the school. In other words, it does not 
draw from—if we were to organize a district and indicate 
it by a complete circle, a school which is a perimeter school 
—it would be on the—cutting across the diameter of the 
circle.

Q. Let me ask you whether or not your comments now are 
indicating that there would be additional problems in draw-

—235—
ing zone lines given the fact that the schools are already 
in definite locations and can’t be moved. A. I  mean this 
makes any kind of redistricting that much more difficult.

Q. Could you review where the schools are presently lo­
cated in the Clarksdale system and comment on why they 
were located there, as far as you can see, based on the study 
you have made? A. Well, no place in the study that I have 
made could I  determine why the schools were actually 
placed where they were. I  mean I  could only relate them to 
what seems to be the district which they’re aimed at serv­
ing, and, for example, the Oliver School, which is in Zone 
E-l-A, serves a district again working up away from the 
school, and this is pretty close to a perimeter school as far 
as the school district boundaries are concerned.

Q. But it becomes—is this correct—a perimeter school 
by reason of the way the zone lines are presently drawn?

Is that correct? A. That’s correct. However, in this 
particular instance, as in the other, Booker T. Washington 
School, in 2-A, they’re there, and the placement of the 
school is on the perimeter, and there isn’t much that can

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be done about these isolated instances of redrawing a dis­
trict line in order to get the school nearer to the youngsters, 
and, so, this is an accomplished fact.

Q. You were telling us about, I  guess, some of the criteria 
that would be involved or some of the facts that you would 
have to gather for drawing school zone lines.

Would you indicate, assuming you have all the informa­
tion, the criteria that are generally accepted in determin­
ing where school zone lines should be drawn? A. I  
wouldn’t mind doing that, but it doesn’t seem to me this 
would be, you know, particularly helpful at this point, be­
cause I  mean we have now an accomplished fact, and that 
is the location of schools.

Q. Well, I ’m—• A. So, there might be some re-evalua­
tion of the district lines to accomplish the purpose which 
was set out and attempted in this drawing of district lines.

Q. I ’m thinking in terms of criteria for zoning a system 
where, as here, there’s a requirement that there be new 
zones and where, as here, the schools are already in their 
present locations. A. I  think it would just be a review of 
the district lines drawn as they are here in these new ele-

— 237—

mentary districts and then making some attempt to mini­
mize the location of the schools by redrawing lines based on 
good population studies.

Now, I don’t have the background of specific population 
studies in this particular community. I  mean all I  could 
indicate would be that there might be some investigation 
of other district lines than these and the basis for that be­
ing that this redistricting didn’t seem to effect its purpose.

Q. Well, let me ask you this: Starting just from an edu­



459

cational standpoint, would you tell the Court whether or 
not in your review and study of these zone lines you found 
that they did or did not meet the generally accepted criteria 
for school zone lines? A. Well, I  think the criteria again 
would have to he altered within the circumstances with 
which you are dealing, and the criteria of locating schools 
or drawing districts so that the schools can best serve the 
pupil population, so that, if we’re talking about general 
principles, the general principles here have not been met.

Q. In what regards have they not been met? A. Well, 
for example, the greater number of the youngsters going

—238—
to this school are—

Q. Which school zone is that? A. This is E-2-A, and 
that’s Booker T. Washington School location, and the dis­
trict runs from this line all the way down to the school, and, 
so, it draws its entire enrollment from a northerly direction.

Now, ideally, without taking into account the existing land 
usage, ideally, if this were to be the district, the school 
would be located as close to the center of the district as 
possible to make the travel time of youngsters as short as 
possible in getting to the school.

Q. Would that be also true as to Zone E-l-A, for example, 
or— A. Yes. The same principle would work here.

I  mean if this is an evenly—we have a land usage here 
which is very obvious and that a school could not be located 
in that area, but if the school is to serve this entire area, 
and this is a heavily populated area, the school would be 
better placed at some place closer to the center of the total 
district as the district is designed or subdistrict is designed.

Q. Let’s go on across and look at Zones E-4-B and E-4-C
- 2 3 9 -

over to the northwest part of the city. A. Well—

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Q. I  will ask yon to tell us whether you have made a 
study of those zones and indicate whether they come close 
to meeting good standards or fall— A. Yes.

Q. —far from meeting good standards. A. For exam­
ple, Heidelberg is located somewhat toward the center of 
Zone E-4-B.

Kirkpatrick is slightly off center, but it’s closer to the 
center than either of the two previous existing schools.

Q. How about other criteria!
Certainly isn’t it so that the location of the school in the 

zone would be one factor, but would not be the sole factor?
How about meeting other factors or criteria of school 

zone lines? A. Well, again we get back to the original 
location of the school, the necessity of a school being orig­
inally erected and it would have to serve that population. 
This would be related to the size of the school. How big 
does the school get? I  mean: How is it planned? Is it an 
expandable unit?

—240—
Q. What do your facts show as to the utilization of the 

Heidelberg and Kirkpatrick Schools in relation to one an­
other? Is one more or less crowded— A. No.

Q. —or are they about the same or what? A. These two 
schools are about equally populated.

The average class size or the average enrollment in each 
of the four schools—Kirkpatrick and Heidelberg and Oak- 
hurst and Clark come to an average enrollment in each of 
these schools per room of 25 plus, I  think, one tenth.

Q. Do you recall whether these were schools serving 
white children or Negro children? A. Yes. These are 
schools which were indicated originally as white schools.

Q. Now, is it correct or not that you indicate the school

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in E-4-B, which is Heidelberg, I  believe, and E-4-C, which 
is— A. Kirkpatrick.

Q. —Kirkpatrick, are pretty well balanced as far as 
meeting the generally accepted criteria for drawing zone 
lines between schools? A. Yes; location of school and 
serving a population and having sufficient room at the

- 2 4 1 -
present time to accommodate the youngsters within a rea­
sonable class size.

Q. Let’s go back across the map to Zone E-l-C, which is 
the Eliza Clark School, and Zone E-l-B , Avhich is the Myrtle 
Hall School, and ask you to make a comparison of how 
well balanced those schools are one with another and 
whether that reflects to you anything concerning the pro­
priety in educational terms of drawing the line in that loca­
tion. A. Well, let’s start with E-l-B, the Hall School. In 
terms of what I said earlier, it meets the location criteria 
well if this is to be the district.

Q. And why would that be? A. Because it’s located— 
if this is to be the district served, then the school is located 
so it is as close as you could get it to the largest number of 
people if we have some even distribution of population.

Q. I see. A. Now, it happens that—whether this map is 
up to date as far as land usage is concerned I  have no idea, 
but if this white area indicates that this is not used and 
occupied land, occupied by housing, then we have a small 
number of potential young people here in this part of the 
district. If  this then is an expandable and potentially or 
might become occupied by housing, then this becomes even

- 2 4 2 -
more centrally located.

Q. How about again the question of how Avell balanced 
is the Zone E-l-B  with the adjoining zone, E-l-C? A. You

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could say almost the same thing about the location of the 
Clark School within this district as drawn here. It is close 
to the center, but off center. In other words, it would be 
concentrically located, hut nevertheless it is a better exam­
ple of school location than Booker T. Washington or the 
Oliver School.

Q. Well, now, how about the balance as far as school 
utilization between the Myrtle Hall and Eliza Clark 
Schools? A. Well, as I  remember, the Clark School has a 
total of seven existing classrooms, six of which are in opera­
tion and one is not in use, and the average class size there 
is close to 25. I  think it’s slightly less than 25 in each of 
the six classrooms in use.

At Myrtle Hall—there are three buildings at Myrtle 
Hall, an annex and a second building and the original build­
ing, numbered 1, 2 and 3, in the information that I  have, 
and there are six unoccupied classrooms in that total build­
ing, and I  don’t remember whether it’s 15 or a total of 16 
rooms, but it might be 18 rooms, and the total class size, 
the average class size, in Myrtle Hall is about 34-point-

—2 4 3 -
something, just slightly under 35.

Q. As opposed to what average in Eliza Clark? A. Just 
slightly under 25 in Clark.

Q. What does this tell you as you are observing or try­
ing to determine the validity of the school zone lines be­
tween those two schools? A. Well, there are certain fac­
tors, educational factors, facility factors, which tend to 
identify the potential level of quality education, quality in­
struction, quality outcomes from instruction, and one of 
these is related to class size, and a differentiation of as 
much as 10 pupils per room between two schools would be 
an index which would indicate that there might be greater

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Reginald Neuwien—fo r  Plaintiffs—Direct

potential, strongly might be greater potential, in the smaller 
class size school for success with youngsters than in the 
school with large class size.

Q. I  ask you whether or not, Mr. Neuwien, you have had 
occasion during your on-site study here to actually see this 
eastern zone of the Eliza Clark School, the zone line divid­
ing it from the Myrtle Hall School zone, which is Wilson 
Avenue, and— A. Yes. I  can—

Q. —report what you recall about that zone line and
— 244—

your observation as to its propriety. A. Well, I  mean I  
don’t know about the propriety, but other than the fact 
that this—there is no natural barrier here between the two 
school districts as we would have to some degree a nat­
ural barrier in the matter of a railroad, a spur line.

This is a roadway, and the youngsters who live on this 
side of the street, of the roadway, may attend this school 
and the ones who live here attend this school.

Q. Now, let’s— A. This is a perfectly normal situation, 
to have some boundary line which is identified by a street 
or whatever.

There are other factors in this school situation.
Q. Let’s go into some of those factors.
First of all, you said the children living on this side. 

Would you tell us whether or not it’s correct that the 
houses located on the eastern side of Wilson Avenue are 
occupied by Negroes and the houses on the western side 
within the Clark zone are occupied by whites? A. That’s 
true, and this is the dividing line between the two districts.

This is a Negro school, and this is a white school.
— 245—

Q. Well, from a standpoint of educational considerations, 
—well, from all standpoints—would you be able to find any



464

justification for drawing the line in this area, pupil popula­
tion, school utilization, school location and what have you?

Can you find any justification for drawing this line with 
the exception of a desire to include within the Clark zone 
all white children living in this area and to include within 
the Hall School all Negro children living in that area? A. 
I  can see no advantage to be gained by the line being drawn 
at that particular point to accomplish any desirable edu­
cational outcome. As a matter of fact, again with some 
knowledge, but not complete knowledge, of all the factors 
that are necessary in order to effectively draw school 
boundaries, there might be consideration given after study, 
and careful study, to work away to some degree from these 
long districts that operate on a north-south axis and there 
might be some cutting across the school districts and re- 
districting the population in order to more effectively use 
the school facilities and to equalize the educational class 
load which teachers face, and this could be done in terms

—246—
of the actual available population,—

Q. Is it— A. —which again I don’t have census data 
on how many youngsters are in this particular part of 
this particular school district, but this can be determined.

Q. And is it your response, then, based on the informa­
tion available to you and your study of this material, that 
there would be educational advantages in drawing some 
of these lines in an east-west direction rather than in a 
northerly-southerly direction as they’re presently drawn? 
A. Yes.

I  mean: I f  we want to go after this same example, that 
if it were possible in this reallocation of the territory, if 
in that reallocation the school size or the class size could

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be lowered in this school and—I don’t believe in loading 
in a high class size in one building to equalize in the other 
building, but if these could be equalized then there would 
be an educational advantage,—

Q. Now, you are probably familiar— A. —plus the 
fact—

Q. —with the fact that— A. —plus the fact that this
- 247-

school has six vacant rooms and this one has one. There’s 
a total of seven vacant rooms between these two schools, 
and better equalization might be made of that space by 
again a redistricting.

Q. Well, you will recall, I  believe, that a new elementary 
school was opened just within the last few months in the 
Riverton area. A. Yes.

Q. Would you discuss the site of that school with regard 
to what you have been telling us about the adjoining- 
schools! A. Well, I  mean this same concept might be 
moved further to the west and possibly include the River­
ton district as well, because now Riverton is at the edge 
of the developed population area, and this is just by view­
ing the land. I mean this land is available, but it is not 
now developed for housing.

But under the present condition Riverton and Clark 
and Hall and Booker T. Washington and to some degree 
maybe Oliver may be considered in a complete reshuffle 
of district lines in order to more equitably distribute the 
student population.

Q. Can I  safely conclude from your testimony that it
— 248—

is your opinion that as the lines are presently drawn they

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are poor from the standpoint of educational criteria and 
good educational—

Mr. Lnckett: I object to leading the witness and 
summarizing his testimony into an argument, if 
the Court please.

The Court: The objection is sustained.

By Mr. B ell:

Q. Let me just rephrase the question and ask you how 
you would categorize the zones you have been discussing 
from the standpoint of good educational administration. 
Do they meet the standards or do they not? A. From the 
background that I  tried to develop earlier, I  would say 
I  think these areas could be more effectively districted in 
order to meet, I  think, better levels of educational op­
portunity.

Q. I  ask you whether or not—
Well, let’s go into the high school zoning. Let’s discuss 

the high school zoning.
J-2-A and S-2-A serve the whole of Clarksdale above 

the Illinois Central Railroad tracks.
S-l-A and J-l-A  serve junior and senior high school 

students who reside in the whole of Clarksdale located
—249—

below the Illinois Central Railroad tracks.
Would you make some comments on the advisability of 

those zones with regard to where the schools are located 
and other applicable factors? A. Well, we have a variable 
in the senior high school location because the senior high 
school serving Area J-2-A is, as I understand it, now a

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temporary and terminable measure and will not continue. 
So, we’ll have to think about the fact of the junior high 
school location being here, which it is.

Q. Now, you’re pointing to the site on the map of the 
Bobo and— A. And the annex.

Q. And Dorr? A. And the Door buildings.
And, so, this is the secondary school facility which 

would, I believe, be considered in any consideration of 
the secondary school district because the secondary school 
—the senior high school area or senior high school stu­
dents will have to be relocated from their present location 
in the joint city-county senior high school.

Q. How about the Negro high school situation? A. It 
is located near the Oliver School. Higgins School is lo-

—250—
cated here, and again, I mean, in terms of the total popula­
tion—I mean the total population spreads all the way 
across here and down to here, and that population then 
must move to as far away from the center of population 
as there is within the city.

Q. Well, then, would you say that the zone line that 
separates the two high school zones for the city is a valid 
and defensible line from the standpoint of education or 
educational administration or does it have failings? A. 
The only thing I  would indicate is that the Higgins School 
is again located about as far away from the total popula­
tion which it is designed to serve as you can get it, and 
from an administrative point of view that location, and 
the other consideration, is not effective.

Q. How about— A. This school, the junior high school 
—if this is to be the district, it is more closely related to

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the center of population because here it is ; but the other 
school, which is presently being used cooperatively, is 
also over here, and it is in the same condition as Higgins 
as far as being away from the population is concerned.

Q. You understand, of course, the zone line runs down 
along the Illinois Central Railroad track through its whole

— 251-

entry of the city, and it is my understanding from time 
to time that railroad tracks are used as school zone lines.

Would there be any justification for making exceptions 
to that in this case or is that completely justifiable? A. I 
don’t think that a railroad just automatically becomes a 
stated district line. I  mean it might be—if it’s a high bar­
rier and if there are no crossings or underpasses, it might 
be just a barrier which can’t be penetrated and then it 
might become the reason for organizing it as a district 
boundary.

Q. Have you actually traveled along the route of that 
railroad and does it or does it not make up this type of 
barrier—it’s not penetrable? A. With the frequency of 
overpasses and, you know, underpasses, primarily, and 
then marked and cared-for crossings—I mean it does not 
seem to be a barrier, and then in terms of the information 
which was made available in the second interrogatory, 
where the total number of youngsters who cross the rail­
road tracks, either the spur line or the Illinois Central, is 
a rather high number in terms of the total enrollment in 
the total schools—I can’t remember—I have on my desk,

— 252—

but I  can’t remember—the total number, but it was a large 
number of young people who cross the tracks, and I would

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say that it evidently does not seem to be a barrier, and 
because of the piercings and underpasses and/or guarded 
crossings, with the exception of this part of that spur, 
it would seem to me—

Q. You are pointing to part of the track down at the 
bottom of the Zone E-2-A and E-l-B? A. And E-l-B, 
where the crossings from—I don’t know what street— 
about one third of the distance down this track there 
are unguarded crossings, unmarked crossings, but the rest 
of it seems to work effectively. As far as a hazard is 
concerned, it does not seem to be a hazard in this com­
munity.

Q. Well, then, would it be possible to divide the zones 
between the Higgins School and, let us say, either the 
Clarksdale-Coahoma or the Dorr and Bobo High School 
facilities in such a way as to increase the efficiency from 
the standpoint of educational administration; and, if so, 
how could that be done? A. This is based on the actual 
numbers of young people from the elementary identified 
zones who live in the elementary identified zones, who 
attend secondary schools, who are in the secondary school

—2 5 3 -
level, and the total number of youngsters that we started 
with.

The total, over-all population could be served by a dis­
trict line coming down that way.

Q. Now, let’s say where. A. Well, let’s not follow— 
let’s stay on this side of the river, come down this way.

Q. A line that would go generally from the north to 
the south direction,— A. Diagonally.

Q. —somewhat east— A. Of the river.

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Q. —of the Sunflower River? A. Sunflower.
Q. It  would run from the north down to the south! 

A. This would satisfy, according to the number of young­
sters who are now in secondary schools—I mean this would 
give an equal segment of the population to each side of 
that dividing line.

Now, there would have to be a lot of other considerations 
made,—

Q. Yes. A. —but this would be a starting point, if 
this were to be considered, because, I  mean, it does divide

—254—
the population.

Q. And, in your opinion, would a line drawn generally 
in this direction overcome some of the handicaps that 
you discussed as regards the line as it is presently drawn? 
A. I f  we consider the occupied school, secondary school, 
the joint county-city school, yes; it would bring the popu­
lation closer to the school service center. In other words, 
this population would be closer to this school and this 
population now is close to that school; this population 
would be closer up here than it is going across in this 
direction; this population certainly would be closer to 
Higgins than it would be to the school on the extreme 
western boundary, across the boundary.

Q. In your opinion, as you observe the way the lines 
have been drawn in this plan, or is it your opinion that 
the desire to maintain as much racial segregation as pos­
sible was the primary consideration in drawing these 
lines as they are presently drawn? A. Well, my only 
observation there would be that this boundary would make 
this segregation effective.

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Q. Not only the east-west boundary we just discussed, 
but in view of all the boundary lines for both elementary 
and junior and senior high schools? A. I mean again—

—255—
I  mean the railroad tracks—when it becomes—when the 
railroad tracks become a part of the boundary, either of 
the elementary or the secondary boundary, by reason of 
the fact that this population here is primarily white and 
this population here is primarily Negro, I  mean it cer­
tainly makes it an effective segregation of the population.

Q. Well, then, could you answer the question fairly 
directly, and then give any further support that you 
would want to, as to in your opinion whether or not the 
primary concern in drawing the zone lines as they are 
presently drawn was to preserve a maximum amount of 
segregation in the schools? A. I  would rather state that 
differently, and that is that if reconsideration were given 
to the district lines in order to promote a desegregation 
of the schools that it can be more effectively done than is 
exhibited here.

Q. Well, are you unable to answer the question as I 
asked it, Mr. Neuwien? A. Yes, because I  would have to 
interpret, you know, what the purpose was in the minds of 
people.

Q. Well— A. I ’m talking about the outcome.
—256—

Q. Well, let me ask you this: Based on the way the lines 
are drawn and the results from the way they are drawn, 
with reference to the line such as the one in Eliza Clark, 
such as the east-west line down the railroad track here, 
such as the southerly line, southern boundary line, of the 
Eliza Clark zone, would it be your opinion that one of the

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H ea r in g  o f  A p r il 8 f 1965

Reginald Neuwien—for Plaintiffs—Direct

major, if not the major, factors in drawing these lines in 
this manner was to maintain segregation of schools? A. 
Well, I  mean from my point of view I  would still make my 
proposal, whether it was effective in maintaining segrega­
tion of the schools.

Q. Your answer is that it was effective for this purpose, 
whether this was the purpose or not? A. Yes, because I  
don’t want to interpret the purpose.

Q. All right.
Would you return to the witness chair, please?
I  have a few more questions.
I would like you to discuss just a bit: Considering the 

lines as they are and having the result that they do, with 
the Negroes being contained in the Higgins Junior and 
Senior High School and the elementary schools being the 
Riverton and Booker T. Washington and Myrtle Hall and

—257—
Oliver, from an educational standpoint, the quality educa­
tion you are speaking of, what is happening to the Negro 
pupils in the schools ? What is happening to them in terms 
of pupil class average when compared with the whites, the 
teacher-pupil enrollment and some of these other figures? 
A. Well, as I said earlier, in this matter of class size with­
in individual schools and within the two schools dealt with 
as groups, Negro and white, as the two separate groups, 
there is a very definite difference in what is a basic factor 
in terms of control of quality education.

In the Clark School the average class size, room enroll­
ment, is 27.1 and in Heidelberg it’s 24.5; in Kirkpatrick 
it’s 25.5, and 23.6 in Oakhurst; in Booker T. Washington 
it’s 37.0; in Oliver it’s 34.3 and in Myrtle Hall it’s 35.8; 
in Riverton it’s 34.3.



473

Then the average enrollments in each of those two groups 
is 25.1 for Clark, Heidelberg and Kirkpatrick and Oak- 
hurst considered as a total group, and 35.3 for Booker T. 
Washington, Oliver and Myrtle Hall and Riverton consid­
ered as a group.

The Court: I  didn’t quite understand that. Was 
that enrollment of—

—258—
The Witness: This is—
The Court: —average daily attendance?
The Witness: No; no. This is actual classroom 

enrollment, not average attendance, because for de­
termining a class size I  think most of us would— 
most educators would agree that—-I mean whether 
the child is present or not, you know, has nothing 
to do with how big the class is. I  mean if he’s absent 
today that’s what gets reflected in average daily 
attendance.

The Court: That’s the reason I  asked you the 
question. I  understood you to be talking about daily 
attendance.

The Witness: No. I  am sorry. I  mean actual 
enrollment, the number of youngsters who are reg­
istered in an individual classroom, and this is the 
way this was reported in the information that came 
in in the interrogatory material.

The Court: All right.
The Witness: So, we have this as one differential 

which is effective in relationship to quality educa­
tion.

The second factor that is related to quality edu­

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cation is the financial factor, and the financial factor 
is made up primarily of the total salaries paid, and

—259—
the budget figures which I  had the opportunity to 
review, I  mean, indicated that they didn’t deviate 
in percentage breakdown from normal budget dis­
tribution. Somewheres between 70 and 75, 78 per 
cent of normal budgets as evaluative, whether they’re 
effective or not, with whatever kind of money they 
have, has this kind of a breakdown, 75-25, with 75 
being for salaries and 25 per cent being for other 
expenditures of operation.

I ’m talking about purely operational budgets.
And, so, the two factors, these two major break­

downs, within a budget, the amount of salaries that 
are paid and also the way in which these teachers 
are implemented for their instructions, instructional 
supplies and equipment and the kinds of lighting 
and all the rest of the facilities within a school, also 
affect the quality of education, and the example that 
I  have used on many occasions is that a very good 
teacher can do a very good job working under very, 
very poor conditions, but then this very good teacher 
working under ideal conditions we would assume 
could do a very much better job.

So, these factors, then, enter the picture along 
with class size, and in the average per pupil expendi­
ture which was in the 1964-’65 school budget, again 
which I  had the opportunity to review, for the four

—260—
elementary schools which are called the Negro 
schools the per pupil expenditure, total operation,

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was $202.62, and then for salary only this was 
$136,—

I ’ll drop the cents’ figure—
Mr. Bell: All right.
The Witness: —out of here.

—and the other operational costs were $66, totaling 
two hundred and two, a hundred and thirty-six per 
pupil for teacher salaries, instructional salaries.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. Which schools? White or Negro? A. These are the 
Negro schools.

And then in the corresponding group of schools, the 
other four schools,—-

Q. These are the white schools? A. That’s right.
•—the total operational expenditure per pupil was $295 as 
opposed to the $202 that I  just indicated for the Negro 
schools, and for teacher salaries only the salary figure in 
the white schools, white children’s schools, is $212 per 
pupil as opposed to $136 in the Negro schools, which is a 
difference, plus difference, of $76 per pupil on salary ex­
penditures.

—261—
The other operational costs in the elementary schools, 

white schools, is $83 as opposed to $66 in the Negro schools, 
which is a differential, plus differential, in favor of the 
white schools of $17.

Now, at the junior-senior high school level combined, 
because this is the way the budget was proposed, in the 
Negro schools the total expenditure for all operations per 
pupil was $292; for salaries only it was $221, and the other 
operational expenditures beyond salaries was $71.

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Now, in the white secondary schools the total operational 
cost per pupil was $424 as opposed to $292 in the Negro 
schools. The salary figure in the white schools was $300 
per pupil as opposed to $221 per pupil in the Negro schools, 
which is a differential plus in favor of the white schools 
of $79, and the other expenditures in the white schools 
$124 per pupil as opposed to seventy-one in the Negro 
schools, which is a fifty-two-dollar differential.

Q. Could you tie that disparity into education?
I hear—I had it in another school suit-—the statement 

made, “Well, sure, they paid the white teachers more, but 
they were harder to get into the school system and there

—262—
were plenty of Negro teachers and it was a matter of sup­
ply and demand and it didn’t make any difference to the 
students.”

Would that be true or is there a correlation in education 
or the lack of education that the Negro children are get­
ting that is reflected in the disparity between the amount 
spent on Negro children per child and the amount spent 
on white children per pupil? A. Well, I  mean, the exam­
ple you gave in identifying the question is really a part 
of the answer actually, and that, however—in other words, 
if there is a large group of people eligible and available 
for teaching and you can get them easily for less money, 
this might be the thing to do; but again what’s being bought 
for the young people is the opportunity not just to have a 
nursemaid to take care of them, but it’s to provide an 
instructional program, and, so, you just don’t go out and 
hire the first 10 people you meet. You hire them to work 
as classroom teachers. There comes the matter of selec­
tivity, and, so, you can get lots of workers to do lots of

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kinds of tilings, but in order to get the best people you 
have to be willing to pay for it, and this is related in 
terms of teachers, too, and, so, if a quality educational 
program is desired, you have to pay teachers at least as

—2 6 3 -
well as other competitive areas where they might have an 
opportunity to teach and you have to be in a position to 
attract the top that you can get with the kind of money 
you have to spend, and, so, there is a relationship between 
how much money is spent and the kind of education that 
you get for young people.

Q. Would you also just briefly relate again to quality edu­
cation the disparity in the number of pupils in the average 
class in Negro schools as compared to white schools and— 
I think you may have said something about the number 
—just teachers that are available in the white schools as 
compared to the Negro schools? A. Well, the, I  mean, 
class size—I mean the best example and simplest example 
—not that it has to be simple, but the best example—is 
that we hope that the teacher who is working in a class­
room with young people has something to give to these 
children, and in order to get the most from a teacher we 
have to make it possible for that teacher to get through 
to each youngster, to be able to know and understand the 
needs of individual children, and it doesn’t mean that there 
is individual instruction so that each teacher works indi­
vidually with each child every day in the room, but it’s 
getting to know the children, so that, to make it ridiculous,

—264—
because there is a break point, a teacher working with 75 
in a first grade certainly could not be expected to promote

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a developmental reading program as effectively as an 
equally qualified teacher working with 30.

Q. To a less extent, would it also be true that a teacher 
working with 35 would have, all things considered, less 
success than one who was working with 25 on the same 
basis? A. That’s the basis upon which we operate, and 
we have enough evidence to prove that this is true.

Q. Well, how— A. Now, there have been some experi­
mental programs and research programs which have dis­
agreed with this, hut the majority of the research indicates 
that reasonable class size—this doesn’t mean you have to 
get down to 15, but reasonable class size—promotes quality 
or more effective instruction.

Q. Well, could you just summarize again your sugges­
tions as to how the Clarksdale system could be zoned in 
order to balance these educational opportunities that you 
were discussing? A. I would think, starting with the ele­
mentary school district lines, that with all of the informa-

—265—
tion that is available and which can be obtained in terms 
of population, population location, what the potential of 
growth is and when it’s going to come, and then locating 
the young* people specifically so that they can be dealt 
with, that the districts could be completely reexamined, 
and my outlook would be that—I  mean I  would not want 
to tinker—it would not be my approach to tinker—with 
what exists. I  mean I  would like to start from scratch, 
and I would think this would probably be most effective, 
in taking the total population and trying to find out, with 
the other fixed factors, which are the schools, because— 
I mean there’s, not much that can be done about them, and 
taking these fixed factors and the population and trying 
to find out how can the youngsters be served best with

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the existing facilities, and then also what are the future 
needs for additional school facilities, and then pretty much 
the same thing should he done or ought to he done with 
the secondary school district approach.

Q. Then if these suggestions were followed and the 
zones drawn up to give a better balance, just as pupils 
per class and all of the other factors you have discussed, 
would there be the possibility of a greater amount of, well, 
desegregation than is presently possible or less!

— 266—

What would your feeling be on that? A. Yes; I  would 
think so, because I  think if this were done to best serve 
the population, the total population, and if the district lines 
were drawn on that basis, without any regard for the color 
of the children, then I think that the other purpose which 
you mentioned—I mean the desegregation of schools— 
would be better accomplished. Of course, you wouldn’t— 
I  mean better accomplished would not mean very much, 
because this didn’t accomplish any. I  mean it came out 
zero for a lot of your fortuitous circumstances.

Q. You wouldn’t be drawing any zone lines purely with 
the idea of accomplishing desegregation, would you? A. 
No. No. I  would—no. No; I  don’t think so, because I  think 
then you would have some leaning over backward, too, 
from my point of view, because I  think that the purposes 
of schools are to serve the needs of youngsters, all of the 
youngsters, and to best serve them, and I  think this is the 
basis for it.

I think that, if there comes to be a judgment where a 
judgment can be made one way or another and effectively 
meet the physical qualifications of closeness to the school 
for pupils and this kind of thing, and travel time and

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— 267—

hazardous conditions and so forth, and if desegregation 
can be served by making one of two judgments, then I 
would think that this would be desirable; but I  don’t think 
that this should be the basic purpose when we’re talking 
about all kids.

Q. How about the faculty being assigned on the basis of 
zones?

Do you have any opinion, particularly with regard to 
what you have been saying about selection of faculty and 
getting the best faculty, as to how faculties should be 
assigned in the schools to better this educational thing 
that you’re talking about? A. Well, I mean it’s my ex­
perience as well as my feeling that the atmosphere within 
a school, the atmosphere within which the youngster meets 
the teacher and is fostered in its educational program, is 
almost completely affected by the teachers with whom this 
youngster works, and, so, I  mean I  feel very strongly that 
these teachers should be the very best, not just the ones 
we can get very easily or get cheaper or so on, but they 
should be the best teachers that we can afford in what­
ever the situation is, because some communities can afford 
more money than others, but I  also believe that in this 
success in the educational venture that a youngster—I mean

— 268—

he has to feel that he belongs in the situation where he is, 
and I would think no matter how effective someone effected 
a desegregation of schools, if this were the prime purpose, 
and if this only meant moving young people from one 
school district to another so that there were some white 
children and some Negro children in each of the schools or 
in most of the schools where it would be somewhat natural



481

to be able to get them, and if this did not affect faculty 
placement, I  mean, I  would think this program would lose 
a great deal of its effectiveness, because I  think that in 
either case—I mean youngsters to some degree, and I ’m 
thinking particularly about the elementary youngster, 
would feel somewhat out of place in this new and strange 
environment.

Q. And how could you cure this problem as a part of 
the— A. I would think by some distribution of faculty 
as well as pupils.

Q. Would this be on the basis of race or could you do 
it on the basis of merit and which teacher was best for 
the job! A. Well, this is the way I  would try to approach 
it—on the basis we need a certain number of first grade

—2 6 9 -
teachers in any system, and how can we get them best and 
how can we assign them to the situations where they can 
do the best, and, so, regardless—I mean I  wouldn’t want 
to see half of the faculty, by dictum, Negro in an ele­
mentary school and the other half white. I  think this 
would be silly, because I  don’t think this would affect any­
thing; but I  don’t think they shouldn’t be there in some 
kind of a situation because of their difference in color, and 
I ’m not talking about the teachers’ treatment. I ’m talking 
about what’s going to happen to the youngsters. That’s my 
interest.

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Mr. Bell: Just a second, please.
No further questions, your Honor.
The Witness: Could I  just make one addition?
I mean it’s a follow-up and something that I  

wanted to have the opportunity—



482

The Court: Go right ahead.
The Witness: Is this all right!
The Court: Go right ahead.
The Witness: Okay, sir.
This is something I just have as information, and 

I don’t know the background, but I  think it’s indica­
tive of this matter we’re talking about, youngsters

—270—
and the educational program for them.

There’s an additional difference, and in Heidel­
berg School, for example, there are 15 assigned 
teachers and there are only 14 occupied rooms, and 
in the Oakhurst School there are 17 assigned teach­
ers and only 13 occupied rooms, and in the case of 
the Oakhurst School—I mean it is noted that these 
teachers spend part time in Oakhurst and part time 
in some other schools. Now, I don’t know, but I 
kind of surmise that these might be what I  think of 
as itinerant supervisors working in the field of art, 
music or whatever, but this is not identified; but, 
nevertheless, there are these five teachers, which 
happens to be 10 per cent of the total number of 
teachers beyond the total number of classroom as­
signed teachers, and then also in the Kirkpatrick 
School there is a small class size of 13 which is 
identified as a class for mentally retarded. Now, 
there’s no comparable situation in the Negro schools.

So, this is what I  mean by the attempt to serve 
the needs of all young people.

So, I  mean this was the additional thing that 
seemed important to me.

The Court: All right.

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483

You may reserve your cross examination until in
—271—

the morning.
Court is adjourned until 9 o’clock tomorrow morn­

ing.

(Thereupon, at 4:57 p. m., the Court adjourned 
until 9 a. m., Friday, April 9, 1965.)

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484

Hearing of April 9, 1965

# * # * *
•272-

Proceedings had and evidence taken in the above-en­
titled cause on the 9th day of April, 1965, at 9 a. m., in 
the United States District Court for the Northern District 
of Mississippi, Delta Division, at Clarksdale, Mississippi, 
before the Honorable Claude P. Clayton, United States 
District Judge.

—273—
A ppea r a n c es :

For the Plaintiffs:

Derrick A. Bell, Jr ., Esquire, 
10 Columbus Circle,
New York, New York 10019.

For the Defendants:

Semmes Luckett, Esquire,
121 Yazoo Avenue,
Clarksdale, Mississippi 38614.

For the Board of Education
of Coahoma County, Mississippi:

William H. Maynard, Esquire, 
Stevens Building,
Clarksdale, Mississippi.

# * # * #

—275—
The Court: You may be seated.
You may resume the stand.
You may cross-examine, Mr. Luckett.
Mr. Luckett: Thank you, sir.



485

R eginald Neu w ien , a witness, called by and in behalf 
of the plaintiffs, resumed the stand and, having been 
previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

Cross Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Neuwien, I will read you a definition of “deseg­
regation” and I ’m going to ask you if you agree with it:

Desegregation means the assignment of students to pub­
lic schools and within such schools without regard to their 
race, color, religion or national origin.

Do you agree with that definition— A. Yeah.
Q. —of “desegregation”? A. Yeah.

—276—
Q. Well, you realize, of course, that doesn’t necessarily 

mean any mixing of the races, do you not, sir! A. That’s 
correct.

Q. That if all children in any particular district or 
zone who are otherwise entitled to go to a school are 
given permission to go to that school that that is a deseg­
regated school, is it not, sir? A. I think there might be 
some question about that statement, in my opinion.

Q. In what respect, Mr. Neuwien? A. It would depend 
to a degree on the kind of approach made to the district­
ing within the district.

Q. Well, if we say that we have a perfectly legitimate 
and rational boundary line for a particular zone,—I don’t 
suppose you can find any fault with the zone, we’ll say, 
for the Heidelberg School—and if everyone, if every 
elementary child in Zone E-4-B, is permitted to go to 
that school without regard to his race, color or national 
origin, is that not a desegregated school? A. That would—

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486

You’re using a particular school district!
Q. Yes. I ’m using that as an illustration. A. I would 

say in the particular instance to which you refer that
—277—

that would be a legitimate school district.
Q. That is a desegregated school, is it not, sir! A. 

That particular school!
Q. Within that definition that I  read you! A. In terms 

of the knowledge that I have, because now we’re talking 
about a specific district, the Heidelberg district—

Q. I ’m talking about that district, applying that defini­
tion— A. Yeah.

Q. —to that particular district. A. Then, in terms of 
what I  know,—and I don’t have all of the information 
that could be available—I would say yes, that that is a 
desegregated district. That one is.

Q. And there may be others in Clarksdale, too! A. 
There might be.

Q. Now, Mr. Neuwien, you have pointed out that the 
Booker T. Washington is a perimeter school! A. That’s 
right.

Q. And you have told the Court that it is not located 
where it should be located! A. I indicated it could be 
located more effectively in terms of the information that

—278—
I have.

Q. Do you know that it is one of the finest educational 
school buildings that we have and built at a cost of 
$373,698! A. I ’m not aware of the cost of the school, 
and I ’ve only seen the school from the outside.

Q. It looks like a very nice school, does it not, sir! 
A. It certainly does.

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487

Q. Do you know that it replaced another Booker T. 
Washington School that was centrally located in the zone 
which it served? A. Yes; I do.

Q. Do you know that the School District wanted to 
get additional territory at that site in order to put the 
new school there? A. I  don’t know that.

Q. Do you know that the School District found that 
it was impossible to acquire additional land and that that 
is the only reason why that school is not where it was 
originally located? A. I  don’t know that.

Q. Taking those facts to be true or the facts upon
—279—

which those questions are based, would you fault the 
School Board for the present location of Booker T. Wash­
ington? A. I might, in terms of my opinion; yes.

Q. Where else could it have been put if they couldn’t 
get the ground upon which to locate it, Mr. Neuwien? A. I  
think that among the many responsibilities of boards of 
education is a responsibility to do some long-term plan­
ning, and with the correct amount of foresight the prob­
lem that you state, that no other land was available, 
might have not become a problem had there been anticipa­
tion at an eai’ly date.

Q. Well, you’re assuming that with foresight additional 
land would have been available, aren’t you? A. I ’m as­
suming that it certainly might have been.

Q. Yes, sir.
But if that doesn’t happen to be true then you couldn’t 

fault the School Board, could you? A. I f  that were true, 
completely true, then I certainly would say that this is a 
problem to be faced.

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Q. Well, as a matter of fact, at the present time most 
schools are built on perimeters, are they not, because of 
lack of available space in the central districts, almost 
throughout the United States, is it not true? A. No; that

— 280—

is not so.
Q. It is not so. I  see.
Well, you pointed to the Riverton School, and you say 

that is not properly located? A. I  qualified that slightly.
Q. You did? A. Yes.
Q. In what respect? A. That there is unoccupied land 

to the west of that building, which might be—and I  have 
no idea what the Planning Board’s zoning is or whatever, 
but the land is vacant—

Q. Well— A. —to a considerable extent west of the 
Riverton building.

Q. Well, isn’t land vacant south of the Booker T. Wash­
ington building? A. Not as I understand.

Now, maybe I don’t know the city limits, but within 
the city, as I understand the city line, no; there isn’t 
within the city.

Q. It is a cotton field, just nothing but a cotton field 
back of there, isn’t it, back of the Booker T. Washington

— 281-

building? A. Not within the city limits, as I  understand 
it.

Q. Well, forgetting the city limits, the city limits, you 
understand, can be changed from time to time? A. Yes.

Q. We do have a law that provides that. A. Yes. I 
know that.

Q. If  the houses are built out there, the city limits can

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be extended to take care of them; isn’t that true! A. It 
could be; yes.

Q. Well, is there any reason why that territory cannot 
be built up back of Booker T. Washington that you know 
off A. No; absolutely not.

Q. And the same thing is true of the Riverton School, 
is it not, sir? A. I said that before; yes.

Q. All right, sir.
Do you know insofar as the Riverton School’s location 

at the present time that the School Board, before it was 
built, attempted to get land where that school could be 
more centrally located insofar as that particular zone is

—282—
concerned? A. Do I  know that?

Q. Yes, sir. A. No; I  don’t.
Q. How many acres do you think it requires for a 

school site? A. This depends on a lot of other factors. 
I  mean to answer the size of a school site would be im­
practical because there are qualifications:

How big a school?
What type of a school?
What kind of a community is it being built in?
Q. A school the size of the Booker T. Washington— 

how many acres would it require? A. Well, in a area 
such as this city, a school should have a minimum of 
10 acres, an elementary school a minimum of 10 acres, 
and this is pretty much a nationally accepted standard.

Q. Well, in built-up neighborhoods 10 acres of developed 
property costs a lot of money, doesn’t it, Mr. Neuwien? 
A. That’s right.

Q. And money is always a matter of concern to a school

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board, is it not? A. Yeah, but now yon are getting into 
what I  said. There are a lot of qualifications. I f  we were 
building an elementary or proposing an elementary school 
in an urban area, highly urban area, then you have to 
make some concessions in terms of school size, school site 
size. For example, in large metropolitan areas, it s im­
possible to have a 10-acre school.

Q. Well, a 10-acre site in the middle of the Riverton 
zone—if it costs two hundred, $250,000, would that be 
prohibitive, more than the school, itself, cost! A. It would 
depend on what the community wanted to pay.

I  have no idea what land costs are in this area.
Q. I  understand.
Would it surprise you that 10 acres in the middle of 

Riverton would costs $250,000? A. Yes; it would sur­
prise me.

Q. Would it surprise you that 10 acres in the middle 
of the area served by Booker T. Washington would cost a 
quarter of a million dollars? A. It would surprise me.

Q Now, there is a high school at the Higgins High
—2 8 4 -

School, is there not? A. Yes.
Q. At the Higgins building? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that the original high school that was 

moved over there was at Myrtle Hall? A. No; I didn’t 
know that.

Q. If  there was additional acreage there and it could 
have been maintained there, it would have been centrally 
located; isn’t that right, sir? A. At the Hall site?

Q. Yes. A. It would certainly have been more centrally
located; yes.

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491

Q. Do you know that the land upon which Higgins School 
and George Oliver were built was donated to the School 
Board for a school site? A. No; I  don’t know that.

Q. Do you know the Oakhurst School at the time it was 
originally built was a perimeter school? A. No; I  don’t 
know that, and there are many things, as you have indi­
cated, that I  don’t know, and I  also indicated yesterday 
that a lot of these things should be factors in anybody’s 
knowledge if they’re going to do a job of districting a

— 285-

school district.
Q. Don’t you think they ought to be known to a person 

that comes a thousand miles away to tell the Court how 
to draw the lines— A. I—

Q. —or to tell us how to draw the lines? A. I  don’t 
think in the capacity that I ’m here, if you mean I  am the 
person—I don’t think in these circumstances that I  should 
have full, complete knowledge about this.

Q. I  see.
Do you know that the Elizabeth Dorr at the time it was 

originally built was a perimeter school? A. No; I  don’t.
Q. Do you know that the Heidelberg at the time it was 

built was a perimeter school? A. No; I  don’t.
Q. Do you know that Kirkpatrick at the time it was 

built was a perimeter school and it actually was out in the 
county, outside the city limits, when the site was acquired? 
A. No; I don’t know that.

Q. Well, you said also yesterday-—and we agree with
— 286—

you in this-—that the future of the population of the 
various parts of the town and the town, itself, should be

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taken into consideration in planning a school system? 
A. I—

Q. That’s true, is it not, sir? A, I  believe this; yes.
Q. Well, in that connection, I ’d like to know just what 

particular knowledge you have about the population trends 
of Coahoma County and the City of Clarksdale and the 
various segments of our population. A. As I said yester­
day, I  don’t know about this, but it should be knowledge—

Q. Yes, sir. A. —on the part of the people who are 
responsible.

Q. Well, for instance, the United States census in 1950 
gave the population of Coahoma County—

You know this is Coahoma County, do you not? A. 
Yes; I do.

Q.—at 49,000 and in 1960 at 46,000, a loss of 3,000 
people. You also know that the City of Clarksdale grew 
5,000 in that particular time. So, doesn’t that indicate 
to you that outside of the City of Clarksdale the county 
lost 8,000 people in 10 years, between ’50 and ’60? A.

—2 8 7 -
Well, you’re telling me that; yes.

Q. Well, that’s good arithmetic, isn’t it, sir? A. I  think 
so.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, there’s testimony here, given by the plaintiff, one 

of the plaintiffs in the case, that a large proportion of 
the population that lives south of the railroad track makes 
their livelihood from cotton chopping in the spring and 
cotton picking in the fall.

Do you accept that as a fact, sir? A. I  would think that 
this is the kind of information that people responsible for 
operating schools or school systems should have.

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Q. All right, sir. A. They ought to know these things—
Q. Yes, sir. A. —so they can effectively administer the 

schools for children.
Q. Well, the plaintiff has testified that’s a fact, and you 

have no reason to dispute that fact, have you? A. I 
wouldn’t have the information or the desire.

Q. Well, this is an agricultural section?
You do know that, do you not, sir? A. This I do know;

—2 8 8 -
yes.

Q. And you do know this is a cotton section?
You do know that, don’t you? A. Yes; I  do know that.
Q. And there is nothing unusual in the statement that 

many people here are dependent upon cotton chopping 
and cotton picking; isn’t that right, sir? A. There is no 
question in my mind about that.

Q. Well, do you realize that cotton chopping as a way 
of livelihood is fast disappearing from the scene,— A. 
Yes.

Q. —from the earth,— A. Yes.
Q. —as a result of chemicals and agricultural revolu­

tion? A. Yes; I do.
Q. Do you realize that every passing year more and 

more of our cotton is being machine-picked? A. Yes; I 
know this.

Q. Do you realize that in just a few years there will 
be no such thing as cotton chopping and cotton picking 
and no livelihood for these people we are talking about? 
A. I would imagine this is so.

—289—
Q. That being true, would you assume that that sort 

of people would stay in this community where there is no

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494

livelihood for them! A. Again I say I imagine that this 
would be a disappearing population, but this should be a 
part of the knowledge—

Q. Yes. A. —of the people who are operating the school 
systems.

Q. Do you realize that even the production of cotton 
is going out of the picture, sir? A. Yeah.

Q. Do you realize that already in this county there 
has been a reduction of almost 10,000 acres by reason of 
the people going to what we call domestic under the farm 
program, that is, from last year until this year, over to 
this year, coming year? A. No; I  don’t know that.

Q. Well, those are the sort of factors that ought to 
be taken into consideration in long-range planning by the 
School Board? A. That’s right.

Q. And they would indicate, would they not, a lessening
—290—

of the population south of the railroad line; isn’t that 
right, sir? A. It might; yes.

Q. And probably would, wouldn’t it, Mr. Neuwien? A. 
This would depend on other factors. There are changes 
in the economy as well as the way in which people earn 
their livings.

Q. Well, if that’s the only way the’ve got to earn a 
living—

They need some way to earn a living, do they not, sir? 
A. With redirection and good education of these people, 
there might be other ways in which they could earn their 
living.

Q. For instance, in Clarksdale? A. I have no idea spe­
cifically, excepting that there is reorientation of labor 
force.

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Q. Throughout the United States? A. Attempts; yes. 
Q. Yes.
Do you believe that you are qualified, on the basis of 

two one-day visits to Clarksdale and a study of the answers 
to the interrogatories, to formulate a plan for the future

—2 9 1 -
conduct of the schools of Clarksdale? A. No.

Q. Do you believe that you are better qualified than 
our Superintendent of Schools and the members of our 
School Board, all of whom have devoted years of study 
to the problem, to formulate such a plan? A. I  would be 
able to formulate such a plan if it were my responsibility.

Q. I  said: Do you believe that you are better qualified 
than our Superintendent of Schools and our School Board? 
A. I  know nothing about the qualification of your Super­
intendent, and I  imagine he is very well qualified, but I— 
you asked my qualifications.

Q. Well, I  am asking you now your relative qualifica­
tions.

As you sit there today and as the School Board sits 
here and as the Superintendent sits here as of today, are 
you better qualified to say what should be the future 
plans for the City of Clarksdale than these people who 
have given years of study to it? A. With the proper 
time and with due modesty, yes; I would be, because this 
is my business.

—292—
Q. I  didn’t ask you if given due time. I ’m talking about 

now that you have had two days of study and 60 hours 
of reading the answers to the interrogatories.

Do you think as of nine-eighteen of the morning of

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April the 9th that you’re better qualified! A. To set a 
direction in which the answers could be sought; yes.

Q. And you know nothing about the population trend? 
A. I  do not know.

Q. What else do you know about Clarksdale?
You say you have been here a total of two days? A. 

Yes. This is my third day.
Well, I  have already qualified that.
Q. Do you know what the Southern Association of 

Schools and Colleges is? A. Yes; I do.
Q. What is it? A. I t ’s a regional accrediting associa­

tion, similar to the North Central and the New England 
Colleges and Secondary Schools and the West Coast Ac­
crediting Association.

Q. Well, do you know that when the Southern Associa­
tion of Colleges and Schools decides to evaluate a partic-

—293—
ular school it sends in a team of 50 members from uni­
versities, colleges, member schools and state departments 
of education to spend a minimum of two and a half days 
of study in order to evaluate a particular school, one 
school, and to make recommendations towards its improve­
ment? A. With the exception of the 50-people team, I 
know this; yes.

Q. Well, you know they send in quite a large group, 
do they not? A. They send in people; yes.

Q. A team? A. That’s right.
Q. And the only question in your mind is about whether 

50 is the exact figure? A. Yes. I question that seriously.
Q. Well— A. But I  am familiar with the accrediting 

procedures. I have opportunities, many of them, to partic­
ipate in accrediting associations.

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Q. Well, here they send in 50, the Southern Associa­
tion.

You haven’t participated in the Southern Association
—294—

Regional Council! A. No, but I  have read their reports.
Q. Is there anything in there to lead you to believe 

they didn’t send a team of 50 people to evaluate a school? 
A. No, excepting it seems highly improbable to me, coming 
in to evaluate a single school, that a team of 50 people 
would be needed.

Q. Well, there will be proof, for your information, to 
that effect. A. Fine.

Q. And that’s what they do, Mr. Neuwien. A. But you 
asked did I believe this or did I  think it was reasonable.

Q. Do you know that every secondary school in this 
community has been subjected to such a study during the 
last two years, that is, by a team of 50 people from the 
Southern Association of Schools and Colleges? A. I  know 
that they have been accredited; yes.

Q. Well, do you know they have been subjected to a 
study during the past two years? A. Yes; I  do.

Q. Do you know that, as a result,—and you’ve answered 
this—they have been admitted to full membership in the 
Southern Association of Schools and Colleges? A. Yes.

—295—
This is in the reply to the second interrogatory.
Q. Do you know that there is only one other city in 

the State of Mississippi that can make that statement? 
A. No; I  don’t know that.

Q. Assuming that those facts are true, wouldn’t you 
say that that should be a matter of pride to the School 
Board and its Superintendent? A. Yes; I  think so.

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Q. Do you know that our Superintendent is Chairman 
of the Mississippi Committee on Southern Association of 
Schools and Colleges? A. No.

Q. And he is frequently called upon to evaluate other 
schools within this particular region? A. No; I  don’t 
know that.

Q. Do you know about the accreditation of our schools? 
A. I  know from the reply to the interrogatory the schools 
that were indicated as accredited by the Southern Asso­
ciation.

Q. Well, do you know about the accreditation by the 
State Accrediting Board? A. No; I don’t.

—296—
Q. Well, do you know that every school south of the 

track, every school that you might refer to as a Negro 
school, has a AA rating, which is the highest rating that 
can be achieved in Mississippi? A. No; I don’t know 
that.

Q. I f  it be a fact, Mr. Neuwien,—and there will be proof 
to that effect—would you say that that is or should be 
a source of pride to the School Board and the Superin­
tendent? A. I should think it would be very satisfactory 
to the feelings of the people, because I think this is ab­
solutely necessary.

Q. Would it indicate that they’re doing a pretty good 
job insofar as the children of the community are con­
cerned? A. In meeting the standards of the state; yes.

Q. Now, you gave quite a dissertation yesterday to 
the effect that the crucial idea of everybody concerned 
in this school program should be the welfare of the child? 
A. That’s right.

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Q. Do you doubt that any right-minded man questions 
that statement? A. I think it is a matter of how this is

— 297—

achieved and the circumstances under which this interest 
is arrived at.

Q. Well, do you doubt that the Superintendent of Edu­
cation of the City of Clarksdale or the School Board does 
not concur with you, that the welfare of the children is 
their primary goal and should be the primary goal? A. 
In this I  would have no reason to doubt, except the method 
of achievement might be different and the goals that were 
being aimed at might be different.

Q. Well, if the goal is the welfare of the children, then 
the goal would not be different; is that right, sir? A. 
The method of achieving it would be considerably dif­
ferent.

Q. I  understand, but that’s a matter of judgment, would 
you not say, Mr. Neuwien? A. I  suppose it would be a 
matter of judgment.

Q. It would be a matter of judgment as between people 
who live here in this community and who know far more 
about the facts that they are dealing with than someone 
who comes from South Bend, Indiana; isn’t that true, 
sir? A. The facts, some of the facts, don’t change re­
gardless of where we are.

Q. Well, we’re dealing with local situations and local 
trends and local people.

— 298—

I don’t assume that our Superintendent of Education 
would be qualified to go to South Bend, Indiana and tell 
you people how to run your schools. Do you think so? 
A. I would think that if he were in the business of educa­

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500

tional consultation and research and had experience in 
this direction—I ’m sure he would be qualified to come in 
and look at another school system.

You indicated a few minutes ago that he operates in the 
Southern Association on their team visitations.

Q. He goes and evaluates the schools.
It ’s a little different about evaluating the school and 

telling them how to run the school, isn’t it, Mr. Neuwien? 
A. I  would think evaluating the school is showing you 
the direction you should be going in running the schools. 
Evaluation would be purposeless other than that.

Q. We agree with you that the pupil-teacher ratio should 
be around one to 30.

That’s what you indicated in your testimony. A. No; 
I didn’t.

Q. Well, you indicated it shouldn’t be over 30. A. No. 
I  indicated that the Negro school ratio was one teacher

—299—
to slightly more than 35 and the white school ratio is one 
to 25, and this was a disparity and I  pointed this out.

Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you said that the average 
class in Eliza Clark was 25, didn’t you? A. Yes; I  think 
that’s the figure.

Q. Well, where did you get that figure from? A. From 
the interrogatory.

Q. Do you know that the interrogatory shows that the 
average class at Eliza Clark is 29? A. Not according to 
the figures we were given.

Q. Well, I think you better refer to the answer to the 
first interrogatory.

On Page 5—

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Mr. Bell: We would make the objection that the 
answer from which the information was obtained 
came from both the first and the second set of in­
terrogatories,—

The Court: The objection—
Mr. Bell: —not just the first set of interroga­

tories.
The Court: Wait just a minute.
The objection is overruled.
This man is basing a large part of his testimony

—300—
on the interrogatories that have been introduced in 
evidence,—

Mr. Bell: That’s correct.
The Court: —and this can be fully explored on 

cross examination and on redirect.
Mr. Bell: No. My only objection was he referred 

him to the first set and I  wanted to object, that the 
answers were contained not only in the first but the 
second set.

The Court: You may reach that on redirect, if 
you care to do so.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Would you look at Page 5 of the answer to the first 
interrogatory? A. Yes. I ’ll look at it, but I was working, 
as I indicated, from the Interrogatory Number 2.

Q. You didn’t work from Interrogatory Number 1? A. 
I read that material, but the material that I  reported on 
yesterday came from Interrogatory Number 2; and the 
total reported in that, net enrollment of Eliza Clark, is

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163, and I reported from these figures 27.1 is the average 
class size.

Q. Would you look at this copy of the answers to plain-
—3 0 1 -

tiffs’ interrogatories, the first set of interrogatories, and 
see the average class size at each school, and under “Eliza 
Clark” the figure 29 is given, is it not? A. I look here at 
Eliza Clark—

Q. I  asked you that question, and I  am talking about 
this particular answer to the first set of interrogatories.

Is the figure 29 given as the average class size at Eliza 
Clark? A. That’s what it says there.

Q. Yes, sir.

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Mr. Bell: Would you let the witness complete the 
answer to your original question?

The Court: Mr. Bell, I  have reminded you that 
your remarks should be addressed to the bench,—

Mr. Bell: I ’m sorry.
The Court: —not counsel.
Mr. Bell: I ’m sorry.
I  thought he was cutting him off.
The Court: Let’s have no further misunderstand­

ing about that.
The witness may make any explanation of his 

answer he cares to do so.
—302—

The Witness: May I—
The Court: You may.
The Witness: So that the figure I reported was 

27.1 as the average enrollment in the classrooms at 
Clark School, where there is a total net enrollment



503

reported of 163 youngsters here, reported grade by 
grade, or room by room, rather, and there are six 
teachers in the building, and this is the most cur­
rent information from the Interrogatory Number 2, 
and, so, the class size there as reported here is 27.1.

Mr. Luckett: I  thought you said it was 25.1 yester­
day.

The Witness: The material from which I  worked 
was here right in front of me.

When I  was at the board, I  indicated an approxi­
mate figure and I don’t remember whether I  said 
for Clark or for which school; but the material from 
which I  worked and then came back here to this desk 
indicates that the figure is 27.1.

Mr. Luckett : You said—
The Witness: I  did say 25 in terms of the aver­

age class size in all of the schools taken as a group. 
Mr. Luckett: I think you said with respect to

—303—
Clark. You may have—

The Witness: Well—
Mr. Luckett: You made a simple mistake, Mr. 

Neuwien. That’s what you said.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Do you agree there may be exceptional reasons re­
sulting from unforeseen developments, developments with 
which you are not familiar, which would explain the 
disparity in the teacher-pupil ratio in the various schools? 
A. I  mean anything is possible, I suppose, but the con­
sistency would make this highly improbable.—

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Q. Well, it is possible? A. —in my opinion.
Q. It is possible? A. Yes.
Q. It is  possible there have been some unforeseen de­

velopments insofar as Clarksdale, Mississippi is concerned 
which might explain some of the disparity in the teacher- 
pupil ratio ? A. I  would look very skeptically at that, but 
I would certainly—as I  said, anything can happen.

Q. That’s right.
And anything might have happened?

—304—
That’s right, isn’t it? A. I—
Q. Now, if additional teachers are hired—
And we’re talking now—we’re thinking now— more about 

the future than the past, are we not, Mr. Neuwien? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Now, if additional teachers are hired or have been 
hired to teach in the schools south of the railroad track 
during the school year 1966-1967, that would change that 
teacher-pupil ratio in those particular schools, wouldn’t 
it? A. It certainly would.

Q. It would— A. If  it’s matched up with the enroll­
ment, yes.

Q. All right.
It would lower that pupil-teacher ratio, wouldn’t it? 

A. That’s right.
Q. I f  fewer teachers were hired for the schools north 

of the railroad track for the year 1967 or if they’ve al­
ready been hired,—the contracts have already been made 
—that would change the teacher-pupil ratio in the schools

—3 0 5 -
north of the track, would it not? A. This would be the

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first approach to be made to change the teacher-pupil 
ratio.

Q. All right.
I f  that approach has already been made and accom­

plished, then that would sort of change the picture, wouldn’t 
it! A. It certainly would.

Q. Did you make any inquiry of our Superintendent of 
Education or the School Board as to whether that had 
been done! A. No.

Q. Now, you have spoken about the disparity in the 
amount of money spent per pupil on the pupils south of 
the track as compared to those north of the track, and a 
large part of that disparity grows out of the fact, does 
it not, of the teacher-pupil ratio; isn’t that right, sir? 
A. That’s one of the factors; yes.

Q. There’s not too much difference insofar as the salaries 
are concerned of those north of the track and those south 
of the track; it’s $100, plus going up to $300 on a matter 
of experience, at the present time, this current school year?

—306—
A. Are you asking that, sir?

Q. Yes, sir. A. There is quite a difference between the 
two payments.

The average white salary in the elementary schools 
is $4323 and the average Negro elementary salary is 
$3937.

Q. Well, the basic salary is just a one-hundred-dollar 
differential, is it not? A. The amount that’s being paid 
to the teachers is the difference between $4323 for the 
schools north of the tracks in the elementary schools and 
$3937 for those south of the tracks in the elementary 
schools.

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506

Q. Well, let me ask you: I ’ll ask Mr. Tynes to explain 
that salary schedule to the Court, but don’t you under­
stand from the answers to the interrogatories that with 
the school year 1965-’66 there will be absolutely no dif­
ference in the salaries paid to any school teacher in any 
school in. the whole school system? A. That’s right.

Q. So, insofar as the future is concerned, there is no 
differential in the salary payments for the school teachers ? 
A. If  the salary plan as reported is fully implemented

—307—
for all people in September 1965-’66 yes; that’s true.

Q. Well, suppose the contracts have already been made 
to that effect, Mr. Neuwien; you’d say it’s an accomplished 
fact now, wouldn’t you? A. Yes; I  would.

Q. Do you know that the same allocation for library 
purposes, for teachers’ supplies and for free textbooks, 
based on the average daily attendance, is made to every 
school in the system regardless of the location of such 
school? A. No; I  don’t know that, but I do know, how­
ever, because I  like to say once in awhile I do know some­
thing, the nonsalary expenditures in the elementary schools 
south of the tracks is $17.13 per pupil in terms of the 
’64-’65 budget as opposed to $85.51 of other operating ex­
penditures in the schools north of the tracks per pupil.

That’s quite a difference.
Q. Well, we’ll just take library purposes. Do you know— 

A. I ’m sorry. Let me correct that.
The other operating expenditures in the schools south 

of the track are $66 and the north-of-the-track elementary
—3 0 8 -

schools $83. The difference between the two, plus, plus

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507

on the side of the schools north of the track, is $17 per 
pupil.

Q. Well, we’ll take library purposes. Do you realize 
that there’s the same allocation made to every school in 
the system regardless of its location? A. That doesn’t 
show in the budget.

Q. Well, for teachers’ supplies, do you know that the 
same allocation is made for teachers’ supplies to every 
school in the district based on average daily attendance? 
A. That doesn’t show in the budget.

Q. Well, do you know that free textbooks are allocated 
on average daily attendance to every school in the district 
regardless of its location? A. I  imagine that’s state 
distribution, because there’s no textbook expenditure shown 
in the budget.

Q. You really don’t know the entire story back of those 
figures that you cited to the Court, do you? A. I  know 
enough from my experience to know that there is a dif­
ference some place, and it amounts to, in the elementary 
schools, a matter of $17 per pupil for nonsalary ex­
penditures.

Q. You don’t know where they come from? A. But I
—309—

could find out.
Q. Well, you haven’t made an effort— A. No.
Q. —up to now to find out? A. No.
Q. You haven’t asked Mr. Tynes about it? A. No,
Q. You haven’t asked the School Board about it? A. 

No.
Q. Now, you mentioned yesterday about five teachers 

at Heidelberg and Oakhurst who were not assigned class­
room teachers?

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508

You mentioned that yesterday, did you not, sir! A. 
Yes; I  did.

Q. Do you know that for the year 1965-1966 three teach­
ers who will not be assigned classroom teachers have al­
ready been employed to work in the Riverton, Booker T. 
Washington and George Oliver Schools? A. This

Mr. Bell: Your Honor, I  think we would like to 
object to this type of questioning as to what’s going 
to be done next year.

The issue before this Court is the propriety, both
—3 1 0 -

in terms of meeting the requirements of desegrega­
tion and education, of the way the lines were drawn 
and the way the system is administered for the 
present school year, and that is the issue, whether 
these lines should be redrawn and whether these 
policies should be adopted, not what’s going to be 
done at some future time.

Maybe that would be appropriate in mitigation 
of whatever the Court decides to require in the 
ways of change for the Board, but I think this line 
of questioning, the character and the length it is— 
it’s just irrelevant to the issues before the Court, 
and we object to it.

The Court: As I  told you before, you have opened 
up a very wide field in your presentation of your 
evidence and I  did not restrict you unduly, and I 
do not propose to restrict the School Board unduly.

Your objection is overruled.

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509

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il  9, 1965

Reginald N euwien—fo r  Plaintiffs—Cross 

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Neuwien, this is a composite map of the school 
zones and districts of the City of Clarksdale, is it not! 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, we’ll take a look at this Zone E-4-B, and we 
have the Kirkpatrick School in that zone, do we not! 
A. Is that Kirkpatrick or Heidelberg!

—311—
Mr. Lnckett: Which one is Heidelberg, Mr. Tynes?
Mr. Tynes: North.
Kirkpatrick is south.
Mr. Luckett: This is the Heidelberg School.
The Witness: That’s what I thought.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. This is the area of the Heidelberg School, and it 
serves the elementary school children in that district, does 
it not? A. That’s right.

Q. As you understand! A. Yes.
Q. Do you approve of the neighborhood-school concept 

for educating children! A. That’s a badly misused term. 
I  don’t mean you’re using it badly, but it’s an abused term, 
has a lot of connotations that—

Q. Well, do you believe that the children should be per­
mitted to go to school at the closest school building or 
the school building in their neighborhood? A. I  mean 
schools should be located so that youngsters can go from 
their own neighborhood to schools; yes.

Q. All right, sir.
— 312—



510

We’ll take the children in this particular Zone E-4-B. 
Now, wouldn’t any rational and intelligent schoolman say 
that those children should go to that Heidelberg School? 
A. Yes. As a matter of fact, we went over that before—• 
Q. Well— A. —and I  indicated that.

We discussed this district just a little while ago.
Q. That would be true whether they were all white or 

all colored or every other house was white and every other 
house was colored, wouldn’t it? A. Yes.

Q. Well, we’ll take this zone here that has the Kirk­
patrick School. Isn’t the same thing true there, sir? A. 
Generally; yes.

As I  indicated, the school there is not as ideally located, 
but we’re not looking for the ideal,—

Q. Let’s talk about— A. —as it is in the other school 
district.

Q. Let’s talk about the children there. Where else should
—313—

they go to school if they didn’t go to the Heidelberg 
School? A. They should go to Heidelberg, or Kirkpatrick, 
rather.

Q. Kirkpatrick.
Well, we’ll take these in this zone, this particular zone 

right here,—

Mr. Bell: E-4-A.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. —that go to the Oakhurst School; the elementary 
school, E-4-A.

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Mr. Bell: E-4-A.
Mr. Luckett: E-4-A.



511

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Reginald Neuwien—for  Plaintiffs—Cross 

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Where else should these children go except Oakhurst? 
A. Oakhurst is the school that’s closest to those who are 
above the railroad track.

Q. Well, that’s where rationally and reasonably they 
should attend school, isn’t it, sir! A. That’s right.

Q. Well, we’ll take these children right over here in 
Zone E-3-A. Now, I  think you made a mistake by saying

—314—
they were closer to Higgins than they are to the high 
school and pointed to the county high school. As a matter 
of fact, they are much closer to Oakhurst than they are 
to any school in the district, are they not? A. I  don’t 
know what my—what your reference is to what I  said. 
We’re talking about elementary schools now—

Q. Well, wTe’ll talk about the elementary school,— A. 
—and making reference—

Q. —and the same thing applies to the high school, 
because the high school for next year and from now on 
out is the same place where the Oakhurst School is, is it 
not? A. In that area.

Q. Yes, sir.
Well, for the high school children and elementary school 

children living in this area right here, in Zone E-3-A, isn’t 
the Oakhurst location the place where they ought to go to 
school? A. Are you talking about that one place you’re 
putting your finger on or are you talking about the whole 
area called E —that elementary district?

Q. Well, I ’m talking about this right now,— A. Oh.
Q. —this right north of E-4-A,— A. You are not talk-

—315—
ing about—



512

Q. —which is what we call Pleasant Acres. A. You’re 
not talking about the school district there, E  whatever 
it is?

Q. Well, I ’ll get around to the rest of it, because a lot 
of it is business district.

I ’ll just have to talk about pupils. I  am talking about 
pupils who live in that particular area, that built-up area 
that we call Pleasant Acres.

Is there any other place where you would reasonably 
send them to school except to the Oakhurst site, whether 
it be high school or elementary school? A. Well, there 
might be some other place, because one other thing I  do 
know or at least I ’ve heard and in an interrogatory there 
is a reference to the possibility of the location of another 
school in that district to which you’re pointing,—

Q. Well, I  would certainly— A. —and that might be 
the more logical place to send them.

Q. Well, certainly it would be the more logical place 
once that school building is built,—A. If  one were built 
there.

—316—
Q. But until it is built isn’t the Oakhurst location the 

site to which they should go? A. But in terms of future 
look, as you’ve been indicating, I mean I would have to 
qualify it, you see.

Q. Well, I  go along with that a thousand per cent, Mr. 
Neuwien, that we ought to have a school in that section 
of town soon. A. I  didn’t say you ought to have one. 
I  said I  heard there was going to be one built there, 
maybe, or it was being contemplated. I  didn’t say there 
should be one there.

Q. Well, if we have— A. I don’t know enough about 
it.

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513

Q. Well, if we have enough development, if we have 
enough pupils over in this section of town, there ought to 
be a school built there to accommodate them; isn’t that 
right, Mr. Neuwien? A. If  this were a matter of knowl­
edge and developed, then the location of the school, I  think, 
would follow in terms of the information.

Q. Along this north end, north side of Zone E-3-A, where 
there are a number of residences and a number of pupils 
nearby the Catholic School,—

- 3 1 7 -
Do you know where the Catholic School is—- A. Yes.
Q. —in that neighborhood? A. Yes.
Q. —shouldn’t those children, whether they be elemen­

tary school children, junior high school children or senior 
high school children, lacking a school in that particular 
neighborhood, go to this Oakhurst location, the elementary, 
junior high and senior high? A. Well, in terms of what 
kind of children, the grade level, where the schools are, 
I  think we agree on the general principle that the schools 
should serve the youngsters.

Q. Well, that’s true. A. But then all of the background 
material has to be considered, too,—

Q. Well, we— A. —and I don’t think that these things 
should be arrived at in generalizations, and I  think there 
has to be a lot more knowledge and a lot more study done 
than you have indicated, for example, that I have had time 
to do.

Q. I  see. A. And, so, in answering that kind of a ques-
—318—

tion, I mean it has to be thoroughly qualified.
Q. I see. A. And you’ve been qualifying me all along 

on that basis.

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Q. Well— A. And, so, I  just can’t say yes; that’s so.
The general principle that we were talking about, I 

think, is how to serve children best by school facilities, 
and one of the things is that the school should be accessible, 
easily accessible, to the child.

Q. Well— A. That’s a general principle.
Q. Well, using the general principle of accessibility, 

wouldn’t you say that this is the school that’s accessible 
to those children! A. Yeah, with the information that 
you have given me.

Q. All right, sir.
Well, in the Riverton— A. But there’s a lot more to 

be had, too.
Q. Well, in addition to accessibility, what else are we 

talking about!
We can’t talk about race. A. Oh, no.

— 319—

Q. We can’t talk— A. Oh, no.
Q. No, sir. A. Well, we could.
Q. Well, the Court said we couldn’t talk about it—not 

this Court, but every court says that, and this Court would 
tell us, too, I ’m sure.

So far as the Riverton area is concerned, that school 
over there is serving the children in the elementary grades 
in that particular area, isn’t it! A. Yes.

Q. Isn’t that where they should go to school? A. If 
that is the accessible school.

Q. Well, it is the accessible school,— A. Yeah.
Q. —isn’t it? A. Sure.
Q. I f  we’re going to use Booker T. Washington and not 

put a match to it and burn it down, the students who should

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515

use it are certainly the students in this particular zone; 
isn’t that right, sir? A. But not necessarily in that zone.

Q. Well, where would you get them from? A. I mean
—320—

from various areas, maybe, where the school would be 
more accessible to the youngsters, because now your gen­
eralization does not work when you get over to Booker T. 
Washington in terms of accessibility—

Q. Well, we— A. —or greater accessibility.
Q. —would use the children to which it is more accessi­

ble than the other children; we should inconvenience as 
few children as possible by reason of this location?

That’s right, is it not, sir? A. That’s right, but there 
might be—by a thorough study, there might be—a re­
orientation of the two school districts to which you have 
latterly referred.

Q. Yes.
Well— A. So, it is not logical to just say yes to your 

question, that this is the school to which the children in 
the outlying district should go.

Q. One who— A. Those two districts might be re­
oriented.

Q. One who has made a thorough study of it might come 
up with an unqualified answer to that effect; isn’t that 
right, sir? A. You mean what I have just said?

—321—
Q. You said without a thorough study one could not 

make an unqualified answer, that that is where these par­
ticular children should go without a thorough study. A. 
And with the amount of information that I  have—

Q. That’s right. A. —I believe that these two school 
districts could be restudied.

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516

Q. Well, assuming that they have be restudied by 
someone other than you, then there is a possibility that 
you could come up with an unqualified statement, isn t 
there? A. I might not agree with their findings.

Q. Well, we’re not trying to convince you, sir, A. 
Well—

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Mr. Bell: Your Honor, we object to arguing with 
the witness.

It is—

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Insofar as the—

The Court: Mr. Luckett,—
Mr. Luckett: Yes, sir. I  will refrain.
The Court: —the objection has been made.

—322—
Mr. Luckett:. Excuse me, Mr. Neuwien. I  meant 

no disrespect to you.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Now, insofar as the children in this particular Zone 
E-l-A, the Oliver School is the school for them, is it not? 
A. I  think the same thing about that district. I  think 
this could well stand restudy.

Q. Well, it could stand restudy; but, in any event, these 
pupils would certainly go to these schools south of the rail­
road track; isn’t that right, sir? A. That’s right.

Q, If  we’re going to utilize the school buildings? A. 
I f  it . were thoroughly studied, there might be some ques­
tion.



517

There’s another district there, too, isn’t there?
Q. Well, there are two districts. There’s the Myrtle 

Hall district and there’s the Eliza Clark district. A. Yeah.
Q. That’s right. A. Yeah.
Q. In other words, you are saying, instead of going 

to George Oliver, you might put them in Myrtle Hall or
— 323—

Eliza Clark? A. It might be.
Q. Might be. A. I  mean, in other words, the whole area 

could stand restudy.
Q. Myrtle Hall and Eliza Clark are very close together, 

are they not? A. The certainly are.
Q. Probably about two blocks apart or something like 

that? A. Well, they’re close.
Q. One is on the east side of its zone and one is pretty 

close— A. Well—
Q. Both of them are pretty close to the dividing line? 

A. That’s right.
Q. If  the children are going to be divided between the 

two schools, you have got to draw a line some place, do 
you not, sir? A. Yeah.

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Mr. Luckett: Excuse me, your Honor.
That’s all, your Honor.

— 324—

The Court: Any redirect?

Redirect Examination by Mr. Bell:

Q. To start off, Mr. Neuwien, when you got in the habit 
of referring to schools south of the track and schools 
north of the track, would you indicate whether or not 
you were referring only to the geographical location or



518

were you referring to the race that these schools had 
been serving in the past solely? A. I  think both, because 
I mean this is the kind of material I ’ve been reading.

Q. But you were talking in terms—at one point you 
referred to the average pupils per class in schools above 
the track and schools below the track. Was that reference 
only to the geographical— A. Oh.

Q. —or did you mean to refer to— A. Oh, no. I  meant 
to refer to schools that are serving the white population 
and then the other group of schools serving the Negro 
population.

Q. And would you, for the record, clarify which was 
which? A. In what-—in what—

— 325—
Q. The schools. A. What information?
Q. When you referred to the schools north of the track, 

did you refer at that point to white schools or Negro 
schools? A. The Negro schools, and, of course, I mean 
this is not correct because there are four schools that are 
Negro schools in terms of the information that I  have, 
and—

Q. And they are located where? A. They are all below 
the tracks.

Q. All right. A. There are three schools serving the 
white population—four schools totally, three above the 
track and one below.

Q. All right.
Now, you were requested—

The Court: Excuse me just a minute.
I  think what he was getting at: On your figures 

that you extracted from the budget—

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The Witness: Yeah.
The Court: —were those differentials inclusive 

of the one school that apparently has nothing but 
white pupils south of the track?

— 326—

The Witness: No. There were four schools in 
one group and four in the other. Eliza Clark was 
in the group with the three schools above the track.

The Court: That’s what he was getting at.
The Witness: That’s the way I  broke them down.
Mi*. Bell: Thank you, your Honor.
The Court: All right.
The Witness: Thank you.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. You were asked or requested to indicate whether 
the school in Zone E-4-B, the Heidelberg School, was a 
desegregated school with reference to whether all the 
pupils living around that school were assigned to that 
school, and I  believe your response was, “Yes,” and I ’m 
wondering: Would you indicate to the Court whether or 
not that response considered the assignment of faculty 
of that school and what effect, if any, considering the 
faculty assignments, that would have on your answer? 
A. It did not, because we—in the cross examination the 
reference was to children living in that area and attend­
ing the school, and this was the basis upon which the 
answer was arrived at.

Q. Well, let me ask you whether or not, in your opinion,
— 327—

a school can be desegregated if the faculty are assigned 
on a basis of race. A. Not effectively. Not effectively.

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In other words, I mean there should be a free assignment 
of faculty as well as a free assignment of children.

Q. Now, while counsel for defendants didn’t take you 
zone by zone and ask that same question as to whether 
you felt that the zone or the school was a desegregated 
school, would your answer be yes if he had done so, if 
he had gone zone to zone? A. No.

Q. Then I  ask you whether or not, in view of the fact 
that this Zone E-4-B, the Heidelberg zone, is one zone 
within a system made up of eight elementary zones, in 
your opinion, the one zone can be designated as a desegre­
gated zone while the other zones are not desegregated or 
some of the others are not desegregated. A. Would you 
put the question again, please?

Q. I ’m wondering: In your opinion, is it possible to 
say that the Heidelberg is a desegregated zone if you 
can’t also say that every other zone is desegregated in the 
system? A. I f  we’re talking then about the school sys­
tem,—

—328—
Q. Right. A. —no; you couldn’t, because this is an 

instance within a total situation.
Q. Now, there was general reference made to the Zones 

E-4-B and E-4-C.
Would you refresh your memory as to your testimony 

yesterday?
Did you or did you not indicate that the zones, elementary 

zones, above the Illinois Central Railroad track, the white 
schools, were zoned in a manner that came fairly close to 
meeting the generally accepted zoning criteria? A. My 
reference was to the Heidelberg and Kirkpatrick School, 
and I think I surrounded it with that statement, that these

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521

schools more closely met the standards for arriving at 
school districts in that location of schools.

Q. And would you indicate whether or not you made the 
same type of response or a different response in summing 
up the nature of the zoning for the schools south of the 
Illinois Central’s railroad tracks? A. I—

The Court: I think I understand his position, ac­
cording to his testimony yesterday.

I want to avoid going back over the same ground.
—329—

Mr. Bell: All right, your Honor.
The Court: He said there were variations from 

acceptable criteria with respect to particularly three 
of the four zones south of the railroad track.

Mr. Bell: That’s correct, your Honor.

R if Mr. Rell :

Q. Now, in speaking of the location or the newness of 
the school building at the Booker T. Washington School, 
in your opinion, would the fact that there is a new building 
down there lessen the impact on the education offered 
because of the crowding that you talked about at the 
Booker T. Washington, and crowding meaning the average 
number of pupils per class and the teacher-pupil ratio?

What effect on those problems would there be because 
the building is new? A. Well, we have a number of fac­
tors. I  mean good educational facilities are favorable to­
ward good instruction, and so that there might be some 
offset of other bad factors. In other words, if it were an 
1880 school and overcrowded conditions, you would have 
a worse situation than if you had a decent school and

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overcrowded conditions, and, so, I couldn’t say—I wouldn’t 
want to say—that the facilities make no difference, but still

— 330—

the teacher and the pupils still have the problem with the 
oversize classes, regardless of the type of school.

Q. Now, there was indication that the location of Booker 
T. Washington was dictated by the high cost of acquisition 
of land in an area that would be further north, located 
near where the old Booker T. Washington School was 
located.

I  ask you whether or not the high acquisition cost is a 
general problem that you find in studying school systems 
around the country and what, if any, advice you give boards 
who indicate that they are faced with this kind of problem. 
A. Well, in terms of the price that was mentioned per acre, 
this is—I mean other than downtown areas and highly 
metropolitan situations this is one of the highest per acre 
prices I  have seen, because normally site acquisition be­
comes a minimal part of the development of the local school, 
and the site would probably run somewheres, in a normal 
situation, considerably less than 20 per cent of the total 
development cost, and probably as low as 10 per cent, and, 
so, when it comes to the question of shall we have 10 acres 
or 12 acres this is—this is talking about peanuts. Even 
though it’s tax-collected money, it’s still a very small

- 331-

amount to be used and enjoyed over a long period of time.
But this site cost was mentioned, I think, at a quarter 

of a million dollars for the purchase of the site, and this 
exerts a problem, but again by some earlier foresight loca­
tions of school sites might have been done many years ago 
and purchased at low cost.

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Q. Now, there was some little discussion about the 
amount of knowledge you had to do this job, and you indi­
cated both yesterday and today that there were a lot of 
facts that a person who’s concerned about the school sys­
tem would have.

I  would like to ask you whether or not, in your opinion, 
the facts that were made available to you and the observa­
tions that you were able to make were sufficient to make 
the findings that you did about the zones and the conclu­
sions you made about the zones as you made them yester­
day. A. I feel very comfortable on that question, and this 
is the way I ’ve dealt with many boards of education.

I  don’t go in and solve the problems before I  go to work 
in the school system, but I  do indicate where the problems 
are, where the possible problems are, and the kind of work

—332—
and investigation that should be done, and I  think that’s 
what I tried to do here; but I  was not an adviser to the 
Clarksdale Board of Education.

Q. Then would you be able to distinguish the amount of 
information that would he needed to correct the situation 
from the amount of information that would be needed to 
point out the defects in the situation?

Would you be able to make a distinction on that basis?

The Court: Again I think that is very clear. I 
think this witness has made his position clear and 
I think I understand it.

If  this witness were personally undertaking to lay 
out the zones himself, he would want a study in 
depth and the acquisition of information, not knowl­
edge, that he does not now have.

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524

Is that correct?
The Witness: That’s right.
Mr. B ell: But I  think the attack was on the pro­

priety of him, on the information he has, being able 
to point out defects, and this is what the question 
was aimed at, to get his opinion as to whether or 
not, based on the facts available to him—

— 333—

The Court: He said he feels comfortable with the 
foundation of information he had to reach the con­
clusions he’s expressed.

Mr. Bell: All right, your Honor.

By Mr. B e ll :
Q. The discussion on accreditation of the schools and 

the nature of the accreditation—does this information af­
fect your conclusions as to two points, your conclusions 
as to the effect of the drawing of zones as they are: First 
of all, would the accreditation or nonaccreditation of the 
schools have any effect on your conclusions as to what 
resulted from drawing the zones as they are? A. No; 
this would not affect it.

Q. I ask you whether the accreditation would have any 
effect on your conclusions as to the disparity in the edu­
cation provided Negro and white pupils. A. No.

Q. You indicated that you thought the neighborhood 
school policy, neighborhood school, was a greatly misused 
term. Would you indicate why you think that? A. Well, 
because it means so many different things. A neighborhood 
school—then we all of a sudden get over to de facto seg­
regation situations, and a lot of people don’t know what

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525

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— 334—

that is either, and we say we don’t agree, so that when we 
use these general labels and throw them around—I mean 
I hesitate to accede to this kind of a thing. I  think we can 
describe the kind of school we’re talking about. Then we 
really know.

But whether I  believe that a neighborhood school pro­
gram is the kind of a program that should be utilized— 
there’s a question. I  mean it depends on how you apply 
neighborhood schools. I  mean we can do lots of things 
with neighborhood schools that I  would find unacceptable.

Q. I  ask you whether or not in your studies around the 
country you find that very often the reference to neighbor­
hood school refers to the racial make-up of the neighbor­
hood. A. That’s right.

Q. I  ask you whether in your study of the drawing of 
the zones here, which, according to defendants, are based 
on the neighborhood plan, you found, as a matter of fact, 
the zones in some instances at least were based on racial 
neighborhoods rather than any other criterion. A. That’s 
right.

Mr. Bell: No further questions.
The Court: Anything further, Mr. Luckett?

— 335—

Recross Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. You take this zone that includes the Riverton School. 
Would you say that that’s a neighborhood school, sir? A. 
Well, I mean again the youngsters who go there, go to 
that school, are children who live in that general neighbor­
hood,—



526

Q. All right, sir. A. —excepting that all of the young­
sters who live in that neighborhood do not go to that school. 
I mean the elementary children.

Q. Well, why don’t they go to that school, sir? A. Well, 
I don’t know why they don’t, hut they don’t.

Q. Well, if they go to a school, they have to go to school 
there, do they not?

If they go to attend a public school in the grades that 
have been reached under this plan, they have to go to 
school there, do they not, sir? A. Well, again, according 
to the information that I have,—this goes hack to the first 
interrogatory, I believe—there are some white children in 
that neighborhood who do not go to that school.

— 336—

Q. Yes, sir.
But they don’t go to public school either, do they? A. 

This I ’m not sure. It seemed from the information that the 
Board had they didn’t know where they went either.

Q. Well, this particular zone—

The Court: Wait just a minute, Mr. Luckett.
You mean you have some indication that white 

children in an elementary attendance center are go­
ing to some school other than the one in their dis­
trict,—

The Witness: Well, this is the information I—
The Court: —some other public school?
The Witness: Well, this I ’m not sure, because 

that was not—but it said that there were white 
children, but they didn’t know where they were in 
school.

I ’d have to go through and reread this material. 
It was in the first interrogatory.

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527

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il  9, 1965

Reginald Ne-uwien—for Plaintiffs—Recross 

The Court: All right.
The Witness: No. Maybe I can clear that up a 

little bit, and I  would have to ask this in a question. 
I mean: Is there a public housing development— 

The Court: Now, you are on the witness stand. 
The Witness: Oh. Okay. All right.

— 337—

By Mr. LucJcett:

Q. Isn’t there a flat statement in those answers to the 
interrogatories that no child who attends public school in 
Clarksdale, Mississippi in the grades that have been 
reached by this plan has been permitted to go to school 
outside of the school zone—- A. Yeah.

Q. —in which he or she lived? A. Yeah.
Q. Wouldn’t that indicate to you that there is not a child 

living in this Riverton zone, in either the first or second 
grade, who is in the public schools of Clarksdale? A. Oh, 
yeah. That’s right. That’s right. I was referring beyond 
Grade 2.

Q. Insofar as the drawing of this line for this Riverton 
district, would you say that it was drawn because of racial 
factors? A. It might have something to do with it.

Q. Well, how could it have something to do with it, Mr. 
Neuwien, when about half of the territory of that zone is 
occupied by houses in which white people live and prob­
ably a third of the children over there are white and two 
thirds of them colored? A. Well, again I  mean I  don’t

— 338-

have all of the facts.
Q. Well, assuming that that be true, if in this zone half 

of the territory embracing half of the houses there are



528

filled with houses of white residents and about a third of 
the population over there are white, how could race have 
entered into the drawing of that particular zone? A. And 
when the children are in school that would become a de­
segregated area.

Q. Well, would you say that that line was drawn with 
race in mind? A. Well, I ’m not sure. I  don’t have the 
total information.

Q. You understand that there are white people and white 
children throughout this territory south of this railroad 
track? A. No; I ’m not aware of that.

Q. You don’t know that? A. Throughout the area, no; 
I  don’t know that.

Q. I f  there are hundreds of children, white children, 
south of the railroad track, would you say that that line 
was drawn with racial considerations in mind? A. It 
might be.

Q. With both whites and blacks in the same zones, and
—3 3 9 -

still there would be racial considerations given to the zone ? 
A. Well, I  mean again in terms of the information that I  
have there are areas below the railroad tracks where there 
are no white children in zones, in elementary zones, and 
that includes the secondary school pupils, the secondary 
school population, because that was included in the Inter­
rogatory Number 2.

Q. You are talking about the Eliza Clark zone, are you 
not? A. Well, Eliza Clark was one; yes.

Q. That’s the only one, isn’t it? A. No. No.
Q. There are no Negroes in that zone?
What are you talking about? Whites? A. E-l-C is one 

area to which I  referred, and—

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529

Q. That’s the Eliza Clark zone. A. That’s right.
And E-2-A.
This is at the secondary school level.
Q. We are talking about south of the railroad track 

right now. That’s the question, Mr. Neuwien. A. E-2-A 
is south of the railroad track, I  think. That’s Booker T. 
Washington.

—340—
Q. Yes. A. At the secondary level there are three white 

pupils in that area and 203 Negroes.
Q. In the secondary area this is the dividing line, the 

railroad line that runs east and west,— A. Yeah.
Q. —is it not, sir? A. I ’m talking about Negro people.
Q. Well, there are both Negro people and white people 

south of that line,— A. That’s right.
Q. —are there not? A. That’s right.
Q. Insofar as these white children who live in the Eliza 

Clark zone, when they get to the seventh grade, they go to 
Higgins High School or Higgins Junior High School, do 
they not, according to the plan? A. That’s right.

Q. The same is true of these whites, we’ll say, who live 
in Riverton; isn’t that right, sir? A. Yes, sir.

Q. The same is true of these whites who live in Zone
—341—

E-l-A ; isn’t that so? A. Yes.
Q. The same is true of these whites, if there be any, in 

this area that includes the Booker T. Washington School— 
and I  think there are one or two of them? A. Yes.

Q. That’s true, isn’t it, sir? A. Yeah.
Q. Throughout that particular district? A. Yeah.

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Mr. Luckett: That’s all.



530

The Court: Anything further with this witness! 
Mr. Bell: Just one final question.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Bell:

Q. In your opinion and based on your studies, Mr. Neu­
wien, do the lines as drawn effectively exclude all Negroes 
from attending white schools! A. Yes, by practice. I 
mean by test even.

Mr. Bell: No further questions.
The Court: Anything further with this witness! 
Mr. Luckett: No, your Honor.
The Court: You may stand down.

- 3 4 2 -
Do you have another witness!
Mr. Bell: Yes, sir.
The Court: I  think before you call that witness 

this would be a convenient time to have the morning 
recess.

Court is in recess until ten-thirty.

(Thereupon, at 10:14 a. m., a 16-minute recess 
was taken.)

The Court: You may be seated.
You may call your next witness.
Mr. Bell: Myron Lieberman.
Your Honor, may I request permission to have a 

former witness be seated at counsel table now?
The Court: Any objection, Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: No; no.
The Court: All right.

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531

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M yron L ieberm an — fo r  P la in tiffs—-Direct

—343—
Myron L ieber m a n , a w itness called  by and in  b eh a lf o f 

the p la in tiffs , h av in g  been first duly sw orn, testified  as 
follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Bell-.

Q. State your full name and your residence, please. 
A. My name is Myron Lieberman and I  live at 271 Doyle 
Avenue, Providence, Rhode Island.

Q. What is your occupation? A. I  am the Chairman of 
the Professional Studies Division at Rhode Island Col­
lege.

Q. And what are your responsibilities in that job? A. 
Well, those responsibilities are those normally associated 
with the head of a large academic division in a college. 
I  am in charge of the Departments of Elementary Educa­
tion, Secondary Education, Industrial Arts Education, 
Psychology, Philosophy, the Laboratory School of over 
700 pupils, a student teaching program, and I  am also the 
Director of Faculty Research.

Q. Would you review your academic background? A. I 
went to high school in Minnesota. I have a Bachelor’s 
Degree in Law and a Bachelor’s Degree in Education from 
the University of Minnesota. I have a Master’s and a

—344—
Ph.D. Degree in Education from the University of Illinois.

Q. Would you summarize your work experience in the 
educational field? A. In the educational field I  have taught 
at the University of Illinois, at Emory University, at the 
University of Oklahoma.

I have been Chairman of the Department of Education 
at Yeshiva University in New York City; I have been an



532

editorial consultant for various publishers, a professor at 
Hofstra University, and since 1963 I  have been head of 
the Professional Studies Division at Rhode Island College.

Q. How about specific experience in school desegregation 
problems? A. My academic field of study in the universi­
ties has included some work devoted to the interrelation­
ships between race and education, and my teaching field 
for over 10 years has also included as an important part 
the race relationships in education.

I have published various articles dealing with problems 
of race relations in education, monographs in the Harvard 
Educational Review and other professional publications.

—345—
I have published two books which deal in part with prob­
lems of race relations and race in education.

I  have served as a consultant for six months to the 
school system in New Rochelle, New York, which was the 
first northern community to be involved in a legal case in 
the federal courts involving segregation in the schools. I 
had the responsibility of drafting a master plan for that 
school system to take it out—to get the court order re­
moved in that situation.

I  have done informal work with consultants working 
on school integration problems in various communities 
throughout the country.

I  have been in charge of two national conferences de­
voted to various aspects of segregation and education, and 
during the past 10 years I have given a number of lectures 
at various institutions of higher education around the 
country dealing with various aspects of the problem of 
race relations and integration in the public schools.

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533

Q. What preparation and study have yon made for your 
testimony concerning the Clarksdale school system? A. 
I  was sent the materials, some materials, concerning the 
situation in Clarksdale, I believe, in December. I  spent, 
I  would say, about one to two working days trying to

—346—
analyze those materials.

I  visited Clarksdale on January 13th and 1.4th, visited 
the schools, looked at the boundary lines.

After that I  studied the second set of interrogatories 
that were sent to me, so that altogether I would say I 
have spent the equivalent of four to five working days in 
studying the materials or looking at the situation here 
in Clarksdale.

Q. Based on your study, Dr. Lieberman, would you give 
your opinion as to whether you think the Board’s lines 
have been drawn in accordance with sound administrative 
procedures? A. Well, it seems to me very obvious that 
there are certain situations where this is obviously—where 
it is obviously the case that the lines have been drawn 
not in accordance with what are generally regarded as 
sound administrative procedures in public education. For 
example, one illustration of this concerns the boundaries 
that have been drawn with respect to the Oakhurst, Clark, 
Hall and Booker T. Washington Schools.

Boundaries should be drawn in order to achieve at least 
two purposes. One is to minimize the distances the pupils 
have to go to school, and another purpose is to maximize

—347—
the utilization that a school system gets from its schools.

Now, in the Myrtle Hall School, the enrollment there, 
on the basis of the figures submitted by the Board, is

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534

over the maximum capacity of the school. The enrollment 
at Booker T. Washington was given as 555, with a maxi­
mum for the school of 560, so that here you have two 
schools, one of which is over its rated capacity and one 
of them which is right at its rated capacity.

Between these two schools is the Eliza Clark School, 
which is operating only at two-thirds capacity, and there 
are a number of pupils in both the Booker T. Washington 
and in the Myrtle Hall districts who are closer to the 
Clark School than they are to the school that they are 
going. So, in that situation,—and there are others—the 
Negro pupils are having to travel a longer distance to a 
school which is overcrowded, and in one case at least is 
already over the maximum rated capacity, than they would 
have to go to a school which is operating at only two- 
thirds capacity.

Q. Now— A. There are—
Q. I ’m sorry. Go ahead. A. Well, again there are sev-

—348—
eral rooms at the Myrtle Hall, Myrtle Hall and the Booker 
T. Washington School, which are operating over capacity, 
and, therefore, it would seem to me to be logical from a 
standpoint of sound administrative practice to have some 
of the children in that district go to a school which is 
closer to their home and which is far from capacity.

Q. Would you indicate whether or not you have been 
able to make a similar type of comparison as to the 
Riverton School! A. Yes.

The Riverton School—Rooms 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 are 
now over capacity at the Riverton School.

Now, there are pupils in the Riverton district also who 
are closer either to the Clark School or to the Oakhurst

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535

School than they would be to Riverton. So, I  think the 
same would prevail there, that there are students there 
who are going a longer distance to a school which is over­
crowded, which is over capacity, that is, for the Riverton, 
and they are closer to a school which does have space in 
every grade.

Q. Do you have any figures in mind or standards in 
mind when you speak of over capacity and under capacity; 
and, if so, what are they? A. Well, I  am taking the

- 3 4 9 -
figures that the Board has given for the rated capacity 
of the rooms.

Now, for example, in the Riverton School,—the rooms 
were just listed numerically—Room Number 7 has seven 
over the rated capacity; Room Number 8 has five over; 
Room Number 9 has seven; Room Number 10 has seven 
over; Room 11, five; and Room 12, six. In other words, 
these are the number of pupils over the rated capacity 
of the room—not the optimum, but the rated capacity of 
the room—that have been submitted by the Board.

Now, at the same time, in Clark, Room 1 is 12 under 
capacity; Room 2 is 23; Room 3 is 12,—these are all under 
capacity—and so forth. Every room at Clark is under 
capacity from 10 to 40 students.

Then at Oakhurst the same situation prevails, with the 
possible exception of one room, that in most of them there 
are over 10 vacancies as far as the rated capacity of the 
room goes.

Q. How about the location of new schools constructed 
since 1960?

Did you review the situation as to those schools and 
did that have any effect on your conclusions? A. Yes.

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I  studied the site and looked at the data that was sub-
— 350—

mitted in the interrogatories on the site of the new schools.
It would appear to me that the site location is clearly 

not in accord with what is regarded as sound administra­
tive practice. For example, it is not regarded as sound 
administrative practice to locate a school—

The Court: Excuse me. Which school are you 
talking about now?

The Witness: Oh, I  am now talking about the 
Booker T. Washington School.

For example, in the Booker T. Washington School, 
it is not regarded as sound administrative practice 
to locate a school near the edge of the population 
from which it draws. The only basis upon which 
that might be justified is if there were strong 
evidence that the population was going to move be­
yond the school. However, in that particular case, 
the school is located at the very edge of the com­
munity, as is also the Oliver School, for example, 
and one would normally expect schools to be con­
structed more or less near the center of the popula­
tion from which they would draw.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. Let me interrupt, Dr. Lieberman,— A. Yes.
— 351—

Q. —and ask you whether or not, assuming there were 
sound reasons to believe that there was going to be a 
great growth of population south of the Booker T. Wash­
ington, that would justify, in view of the location of other

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537

schools, the assignment of pupils above Twelfth Street 
within the Booker T. Washington zone to the Washington 
School. A. Well, I  would not have thought—not—I would 
not think so myself.

Actually, it would seem to me that, in view of the sub­
stantial amount of unutilized classrooms in the other 
schools, in the system as a whole, that it would have been 
far better administrative practice to add to the existing 
schools rather than to build a completely new school at 
the outskirts of the community, because in that way you 
would have been able to utilize the unused capacity at 
the existing schools, which you cannot do by building a 
brand-new school at the edge of the community.

Q. Suppose utilization of some of the existing space 
available would have necessitated students living south of 
the line to travel north of the line, say to Oakhurst or 
something of this nature; could this have been justified

—352—
from an educational— A. Well, in my opinion, it is justi­
fied now.

I  think, for example, that some of the students who are 
nowT in the Riverton district, which, as I say, has many 
overcrowded classrooms, could easily be assigned to the 
Oakhurst School, which has space available in every room, 
with one possible exception, and the same is true, for 
example, for the Myrtle Hall students.

Q. How7 about the traditional idea— A. They, of 
course,—

Q. —of using railroad tracks— A. —are close to the 
Clark School.

See, now Myrtle Hall is overcrowded. There are a sub­
stantial number of rooms there that have over the maxi­

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538

mum capacity, and yet there are students in the Myrtle 
Hall zone who are closer to the Clark School than they 
are to the Myrtle Hall School.

Q. Well, how about the traditional idea of using rail­
road tracks as boundary lines because of a potential 
hazard? Did you consider this in your conclusion in in­
dicating the design— A. Yes; I did.

I  would not think that would be a factor in this com­
munity.

—353—
I noticed from the figures submitted by the Board in 

1963-’64 there were 1,102 students who crossed the rail­
road tracks, and this year, according to the figures that 
they have submitted, there are 639 students. So, then, in 
addition to the figure submitted as to the very substantial 
number of students who are crossing the tracks, it seems 
that there are enough safe crossing points on the tracks 
so that I could hardly see where this would be a major 
factor in drawing the zones.

Q. Did you consider some of the proposals as contained 
in the record at least that the Board is considering as far 
as increasing capacity for existing schools? A. Yes, par­
ticularly with reference to Riverton. I  believe that there 
is some contemplation of expanding the capacity of that 
school.

It is difficult for me at least to see how this could be 
justified when there is space available at Clark and at 
Oakhurst and when some of the students in the Riverton 
district, the Negroes in that district, are closer to Clark 
and they are closer to Oakhurst, both of which have a cer­
tain amount of space available, and in some eases the 
rooms are below optimum. So, there would be no problem.

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—354—
I do not see the rationale for adding rooms to an over­

crowded school when simply by rezoning you could send 
pupils to schools that are now below optimum.

Q. The factors that you have been talking about—in 
your opinion, do they have any effect on the quality of 
the education that’s offered to the Negro children; and, 
if so, what? A. Well, I  would say that it would be a 
miracle if these practices did not have a harmful effect 
upon the education of both the white and the Negro stu­
dents in the City of Clarksdale.

First, as far as the Negro students are concerned, they 
are in schools where their class size is substantially larger 
than that of the white students. I  believe that the highest 
average class size in any white school is substantially 
lower than the lowest class size in any of the schools that 
are attended by Negro pupils, and the margin is a sub­
stantial one.

Now, of course, what this means is that the teacher is 
going to have less time to deal with any individual pupil 
in the situation where the class size is very large.

Then the Negro pupils must travel longer distances to
—355—

school than they would have to go if they were assigned 
to the school that is nearest where they live, and there’s 
a physical factor. There’s a safety factor.

Their teachers are paid less because they are Negroes. 
The school system—the operating supplies—I believe there 
was a twenty-dollar differential.

I  have that figure here.
At the elementary level the per pupil expenditure for 

operating supplies was $202.62 per Negro elementary



540

pupil and $295.98 per white elementary pupil. This is a 
huge difference, and this difference—a good part of this 
difference lies in the salaries of teachers; but, of course, 
the teachers are a very crucial element in the educational 
process, and if one group of students has teachers who 
are paid more than others they’re very likely to get a 
better education for that reason, so that you have a dis­
tance factor; you have a supply factor; you have a teacher 
factor.

Then another thing: The curriculum in the Negro
schools seems to be narrower than that in the white schools  ̂
For instance, at the secondary level, there are some courses 
that are not offered at Higgins which are offered at Clarks- 
dale-Coahoma Junior and Senior High: There’s Latin I 
and II, Problems of Democracy, Spanish III, Practical

—3 5 6 -
Nursing, Distributive Education, Metals and Machines, 
Machine Tool Operation, Mechanical Drawing, and I  think 
some others. It ’s not too clear because of the language 
or the terminology that’s applied to courses, but I  would 
assume from looking at the list that there are other courses 
in addition to these that are available in the Clarksdale- 
Coahoma Junior-Senior High complex that are not avail­
able to Higgins. So, this, of course, is extremely crucial 
to the student, whether he can take a course that meets his 
particular needs.

Then, of course, the very fact that the rated capacity 
for the rooms seems to be different at least-—not in every 
case, but in many cases—for white and Negro pupils; that 
is to say a room with the same size will have a rated 
capacity and the figure will be higher if the school is used

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541

by Negro students than for white students. This is true 
not in every case, but in a substantial number of cases.

Q. Now, what is this based on? Which interrogatory in 
particular?

Do you recall? A. This is based upon the one—I believe 
it was the last one that we have.

—357—
Q. Do you have the number of the answer? A. Well, I 

think I have the number of the answer, but I don’t have 
the number of the question.

Number 3.
I should add something to the capacity problem: That it 

is somewhat difficult to know, to understand, the situation 
precisely because you will have rooms and the square 
footage will range from, say, 792 feet to a thousand feet, 
and yet the rated capacity will be 40 students per room. 
In other words, you have a number of rooms and the rated 
capacity—the square footage will vary as much as over 
200 feet, and yet the rooms will be allocated the same 
rated capacity of 40 students.

I listed for Heidelberg and Booker T. Washington and 
Myrtle Hall all the rooms that have a rated capacity of 
40 students, and here’s one at Heidelberg, for example, 
that Room 15, that has 792 square feet and a rated capacity 
of 40, and another room in the same school that has a 
thousand square feet and a rated capacity of 40.

But, in general, the point that I want to make is this: 
That there are exceptions to this, but in general it would 
seem that more Negro pupils are expected to be in an area, 
in the same size area, as would be expected to be if the 
school were attended by white students.

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Q. How about the number of teachers provided the 

Negroes and the number for the white elementary level! 
A. Well, this is one of the most striking facts about the 
system, as I looked over the material.

I can give you the summary on this very quickly.
According to the latest interrogatory submitted by the 

Board, there are approximately 1,102 white elementary 
students and 1,915 Negro elementary students. On the 
other hand, there are only four more Negro teachers for 
these elementary students than there are white teachers. 
In other words, although there are 700, approximately 700, 
more Negro elementary pupils, there are only four more 
Negro teachers in the schools where those pupils are, and 
that is, of course, a staggering difference, and even that 
doesn’t tell the whole story because it appears—and again 
I don’t have the additional information—that there are 
some teachers in the white schools that are not in class. 
It appears that they have about five teachers who are not 
in class who might be available for supervisory or remedial 
work with students; but, of course, over-all, a situation 
where you have 700 more pupils and only four teachers to 
cope with that difference would hardly be—I would say

—359—
would be impossible just about to defend on any sound 
administrative basis.

Q. What is your opinion, Dr. Lieberman, as to the effect 
of the Board having drawn the lines as they have and hav­
ing followed the school construction policy and these other 
factors that you have discussed! A. Well, could you be a 
little more specific?

With respect to what?



543

Q. The effect with regard to desegregation. A. Well, I  
think that result is really an obvious one. That doesn’t 
call for an opinion. There are, as I  understand it, at the 
present time no Negro pupils and white pupils together 
in any school in the community. So, it would seem to me 
to be an obvious conclusion that the school construction 
policy, the addition policy and the zoning policy has had 
this effect.

Q. Let me ask you: Let us suppose that the lines had 
been drawn so that every pupil would have been assigned 
to the school located nearest his home and so that you 
could balance the teachers and pupils— A. Right.

Q. —in each school according to the school’s capacity. 
Generally, how would those lines, starting with the ele-

—360—
mentary grades, have differed from the lines that the 
Board has? A. Well, I  can’t answer that for every school 
in the community, but it would seem to me obvious that in 
some cases the lines would have been drawn much differ­
ently. The lines for Clark would now include some stu­
dents from Myrtle Hall and from Booker T. Washington.

As I  mentioned before, Clark, which has space available, 
a good deal of space available, is closer to many Negro 
students who are now attending schools and in classrooms 
which are over their rated capacity.

So, that would be one change that would follow.
I would assume that another one wmuld be that the lines 

would be redrawn so that some students in the Riverton 
district, for instance, would now attend Oakhurst because 
Riverton is at or above capacity in many classrooms while, 
on the other hand, Oakhurst has space, substantial space, 
available.

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So, I would assume that the lines would he redrawn in 
such a way that, if the zones were still, you might say, 
roughly rectangular, they would he—the longer side of the 
rectangle would be east and west instead of north and south.

Q. In other words,—indicate whether this is what you
—3 6 1 -

are saying—the lines, the elementary school zone lines, 
south of the railroad tracks, which tend to run in a north- 
south direction, would run more in an east-west direction? 
A. Yes.

Now, Booker T. Washington, for example—the northern 
part of the Booker T. Washington zone, for example, it 
would seem to me would be included in Clark.

The Riverton—the eastern portion of the Riverton zone, 
you see-—

Q. This? A. Yes.
Q. Would you be referring to this? A. —it would seem 

to me some of it could be assigned either to Eliza Clark 
or some of it to Oakhurst.

Then I  would think that the zone at the south part of 
this community—that you could combine part of Booker T. 
Washington and what is now the Oliver zone.

But, in any case, it would seem clear that if you held to 
the criterion of distance and you wanted also to get the 
maximum utilization of your facilities that the zone lines 
for the schools would be quite different from what they are 
now.

—362—
Q. What would your answTer be in regard to the zoning 

of the high schools?
As you know, there are two high schools, one in the 

northern section and one in the southern section of town,

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and the zone line is the Illinois Central Railroad track 
running down between them. A. Well, I  would recom­
mend that the line be drawn, and I  think that a line— 
that using the Sunflower River, the river as a dividing 
line, would probably be the best solution there to maximize 
utilization of facilities and for the distance factor.

Q. I  ask you whether or not you would be able to 
definitely say that would be the line without further study 
and things of that nature. A. No; I wouldn’t be that 
categorical about it, but it would seem to me, looking at 
it, it would make a far more sensible line than using the 
railroad track.

Now, you might draw the line—
Of course, one factor that has to be taken into account 

here is the curriculum in the schools. Certainly if a pupil 
can demonstrate a real need for a course which is only 
given at one school—I would think that he certainly ought 
to be permitted to attend that school; but I  think the

— 363-

demonstration ought to be a genuine one, that pupils should 
not be permitted to transfer just because they want to 
transfer.

Q. On that point, were there some examples that you 
can give from your study of the curriculum,— A. Yes.

Q. —where, for example, if— A. If, for example, to go 
back to the courses—if a student who is, let’s say, now at 
Higgins—if he wanted to take Latin or he wanted to take 
Machine Tool Operation or Mechanical Drawing, if he had 
educational or vocational plans that required a course 
such as this, I  would think that—I can’t imagine any rea­
son that would be available to deny him that right.

Q. I ask your opinion as to— A. Could I—

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Q. Yes. A. —add one—
Q. Yes. A. There are courses that are offered at Hig­

gins also that are not available at Clarksdale-Coahoma 
Junior-Senior High School, and the same thing would hold 
there. If  any white pupil needed a course that was given 
at the present time only at Higgins, he could be permitted 
to go there.

—364—
Presumably the line should be drawn without any regard 

to race, and then the district—the line should—the zones 
should be adhered to very firmly except for a very dem­
onstrated educational reason.

Q. Let me ask you whether lines drawn along the lines 
you have just suggested or the Board’s lines come closest 
to meeting the Board’s criteria for drawing lines, which 
was the proximity and school utilization. A. Well, as I  
said before, I  don’t understand the justification for requir­
ing, say, students in the northern part of the Booker T. 
Washington district to travel all the way down to the 
Booker T. Washington School, nor do I  understand why 
pupils in the Myrtle Hall district, which is over its rated 
capacity, and some of the students in the Myrtle Hall dis­
trict are closer to the Clark School than they are to the 
Myrtle Hall School—why they should not be assigned, for 
example, to the Clark School.

So, if the—you have to consider both factors at the same 
time. You have to consider the distance factor and you 
also have to consider, of course, the utilization-of-school 
factor.

There can be situations in which a pupil does not go to
—365—

the school nearest his home, but that would be a situation

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in which that school was overcrowded and he were going 
to a school farther away that was not so crowded; but here 
the reverse is the case. The pupils travel a longer distance 
—the Negro pupils travel a longer distance—to go to 
overcrowded schools than they would have to go to go to 
schools that are not crowded at all.

Q. Well, then, would you say that drawing the lines 
along the lines you have suggested or the Board’s lines 
come closer to a true neighborhood school policy? A. 
Well, I ’m not sure what is meant by “a true neighborhood 
school policy”.

This is a phrase that means different things to different 
people.

You can—for example, if you have two secondary schools, 
you can divide the community up into two neighborhoods.

The neighborhood school has a meaning that’s different 
from person to person and area to area.

In this community the only criterion for “neighborhood” 
that I can honestly see is in using the criterion of race, 
that “neighborhood” seems to be defined by “white” or 
“Negro”. It certainly isn’t defined in terms of distance

— 366—

from school, because if it were there would be many Negro 
pupils going to schools that now enroll only whites and 
there would be some white students that would be going 
to schools that now are enrolling only Negroes.

So, I don’t know, but my concept of neighborhood school 
would be that you would go to the school nearest your 
home, provided that due account were given to the utiliza­
tion of facilities and safety factors. That, I  believe, is a 
legitimate conception of a neighborhood school, and if that

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were followed in this community I  think the lines could be, 
as I said before, much different from what they are.

Q. I f  the lines were drawn along the lines that you sug­
gested, would, in your opinion, there have been more de­
segregation, that is, more— A. Well, if there was deseg­
regation of one person in this community, there would he 
more; but I would say that there would be—well, I  can’t 
give you any precise figures, of course, because where we 
would draw the line exactly could vary; but, as I  say, it 
would be obvious that there would be a substantial num­
ber of white and Negro students in the same school if the 
lines were drawn on a nonracial basis.

—367—
Q. Would you say there would have been Negro pupils 

residing in what we can categorize as white school zones 
if the lines were so drawn? A. Would you—

Q. If  there— A. —rephrase that question?
Q. I f  the lines were drawn along the lines you suggested, 

then there would be Negro pupils living within the Eliza 
Clark zone, for example? A. That is correct.

Q. And Negro pupils would be living within the Oak- 
hurst zone, for example? A. That is correct.

Q. And would it also be true that there would probably 
be larger numbers of white pupils living within what have 
been traditionally Negro school zones? A. That is true.

Q. I  ask you, if you know, to tell us what is the effect 
on desegregation of continuing to assign teachers on the 
basis of race. A. Well, of course, if this is one, it’s an 
educational handicap to all the students because a person 
should be hired for the job that he is to do, and if you

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hire them for any other purpose that is inevitably going

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to impair the job, the quality of the job, that is going 
to be done.

And there is another factor, and that is I  think, from 
an educational pout of view, you want both teachers and 
pupils to think in terms of the job they have to do and 
not in terms of their race or color, so that if, however, 
race or color come to be the criterion then people are think­
ing in these terms instead of in terms of the educational 
job that must be done.

Whenever you use the racial criterion instead of the job 
criterion, I  think you’re going to weaken the educational 
process for that reason. If, for example, you are hiring 
a music teacher and you don’t go out and hire the best 
music teacher regardless of his race and regardless of 
where that teacher is going to teach, the pupils are going 
to suffer because you are not going to get the best music 
teacher you could get; and I  would say this—it would 
seem to me this—-could apply whether you are talking 
about the white school or the Negro school. You want to 
hire the best person to do the job.

Q. How about any other effect on the desegregation 
process of having a desegregated faculty in the schools?

—369—
A. Well, there has been some research on this point of 
what is the effect of a desegregated faculty and the over­
whelming evidence so far is it tends to have a good effect 
on morale of both teachers and pupils.

I know there have been situations where there was 
some fear that it would make it difficult to recruit teachers, 
for example. That has not been borne out by experience.

Q. Would the assignment of teachers on a desegregated 
basis, in your opinion, tend to alter the traditional image

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—the traditional racial image—of the school? A. Well, 
I  would say that it would—it might have that effect. I 
don’t see how it could have—I don’t see how it could con­
tribute toward perpetuating the image of white school and 
Negro school.

I  think if we had integrated faculties it would in most 
cases facilitate people thinking of schools as a place where 
there is an educational job to be done, and that would be 
it; but, of course, what the impact would be on individuals 
—this is something you can only tell by looking at in­
dividuals. I  mean there might—there would be some per­
haps for whom this would make no difference.

There is no doubt that in most of the schools where the
—3 7 0 -

faculties have been desegregated—and often this has hap­
pened with a great deal of hesitation on the part of some 
parties, but by and large the results have been good, and 
both in terms of the faculty and the students.

Q. Were there any other points that helped contribute 
to the conclusions that you have made before that you 
haven’t had an opportunity to present? A. I think this 
may have been mentioned, but I  think it—again to clarify 
one point, the problem relating to school sites and school 
additions: First of all, it would seem that the Board did 
not add to existing schools when it might have done so 
and taken advantage of the unused capacities in those 
schools.

Q. Let me ask you whether adding to the capacity in 
the instances that you’re considering would have if done 
this year resulted in desegregated assignments. A. This 
is what I want to come to.

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It seems to me in the past where this would have been 
a feasible thing to do it was not done, and now in the 
Riverton situation, where the Board is planning to add 
more rooms, that this is precisely the case where it should 
not do so, but should rezone that district to send part of 
those pupils to Eliza Clark or to Oakhurst.

—371—
So, again, if you look at the situation where they have not 

built additions and the situation where they are planning 
to build additions, the rationale for this escapes me per­
sonally, except that it would seem to be that those would 
facilitate the segregated situation that you have here in 
the schools.

Mr. Bell: No further questions.
The Court: You may cross-examine.

Cross Examination by Mr. Lu ckett:

Q. Mr. Lieberman, I  take it from your answers that 
you equate segregation with integration; is that right, sir? 
A. I ’m not sure what you mean, sir.

Q. Well, you seem to refer to a desegregated school as 
one that includes both colored and white, do you not?

Do you accept the proposition that a desegregated school 
can be a school that’s all white or all colored? A. Yes; I 
do.

Q. Then so far as, we’ll say, this Heidelberg School is 
concerned,—of course, there’s always the proviso that no 
one is denied admittance to the school on account of his 
race, color or national origin—if we take that school there 
in that particular zone, with no one denied admittance

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— 372—

to that school on account of race, color or national origin, 
that is a desegregated school, isn’t it? A. Well, not neces­
sarily.

First of all, I  want to make the distinction between a 
desegregated school system and a desegregated school, 
see,—

Q. Well— A. —but—
Q. We’ll say a desegregated school.
Would that be a desegregated school? A. I f  what?
Q. If, as is true, every pupil living in that particular 

zone that is served by that particular school who is other­
wise qualified to go to school in that school is admitted to 
that school without regard to race, color or national origin, 
isn’t that a desegregated school? A. Not necessarily.

Q. Why? A. It depends upon how the zones were 
drawn.

Q. Well-— A. In other words, if you draw a zone so 
that within the zone there are only white pupils and then 
you say, “Now, within that zone I ’m going to treat people

— 373—

on a nonracial basis,” but the zone, itself, is drawn on a 
racial basis, I  would not tend to call that a desegregated 
or an integrated school.

Q. Well, Mr. Lieberman, don’t you know that the School 
Board has to take the town as it finds it? A. Well, I 
would assume they would.

Q. It has to work with the housing patterns that have 
already developed?

That’s true, is it not? A. To some extent.
There are some communities where the school people 

work with the city planners and the other city officials, so



553

that the schools are just not a reaction to what some other 
city agency does, but they work together so they have 
intelligent planning of the schools and the rest of the com­
munity.

Q. All right.
We’ll take this particular line. It ’s been drawn. A. 

Which lines are you referring to, sir?
Q. This line, E-4-B, that includes the Heidelberg School. 

A. The Heidelberg School.
Q. Now, how else would you draw that line except the

- 3 7 4 -
way it is to include those pupils? A. Offhand, I ’m not 
sure.

Q. Well, isn’t it perfectly obvious— A. I  think that the 
specific drawing of a line is something that has to take 
into account what you’re doing in the rest of the community. 
So, I  wouldn’t try to draw a line for the Heidelberg School 
apart from what I would do elsewhere in the community.

Now, I  have suggested that I  would draw the lines dif­
ferently elsewhere, and I  have indicated the general nature 
of how they would be drawn.

Q. I ’m asking you about this particular school and these 
particular children living in this particular neighborhood.

A child living right on this street right here that I ’m 
pointing to in this particular zone—where else would you 
send that child if that child goes to an elementary school 
grade ?

Where else would you send that child except to the 
Heidelberg School? A. Well, I don’t know. As I  say, it 
would depend upon the—you zone the community as a 
whole, in my opinion. You don’t just take one school and

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— 375-

talk about how you’re going to zone it or where those 
children will go until you have seen the community as a 
whole.

Q. Would it make sense to take that child over here and 
send him to George Oliver School? A. It might.

Q. That’s what you call busing the children across town— 
A. No.

Q. —to a particular school? A. For example, there are 
some communities that have specialized schools, and cer­
tainly they’re the only place in the community where a 
certain curriculum is available, and a particular child 
might have to go across the community to get there.

Q. We’re not talking about a particular child with a 
particular need. We’re talking about just the average 
second or third grader— A. Right.

Q. —that the Court is going to deal with this coming 
school year. A. Right.

Q. Where would that particular third grader go if he 
lives, say, right where my pencil is pointing,— A. All

— 376-

right.
Q. —other than to the Heidelberg School, to make any 

sense? A. I ’d say the chances are that he’d go to Heidel­
berg.

Q. Yes, sir.
Well, if he lived in, say, this particular point right here, 

wouldn’t he go to the Kirkpatrick School, sir? A. I ’m 
not—I ’m not so sure.

First, I can’t see it too well from here.

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do so.



555

The Witness: I  can see it better now,
Mr. Luckett: All right.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Eight here. A. Eight.
Q. I ’ll put the point right there. A. Eight.
Q. Where else would he go except to this school right 

here that’s within two or three blocks of his house? A. 
Well, again I  want to emphasize the point that you’d have 
to see what happened when you zoned elsewhere in the

—3 7 7 -
community, and if you start to zone and look at an in­
dividual child before you’ve seen what’s required—

Now, let me give you an illustration. You may decide 
that the best thing to do is to change the grade pattern 
in the community to get maximum utilization of your facili­
ties. So, it may be that that school which is only two or 
three blocks away—instead of having six grades, they only 
have three grades, and in that case he would have to go 
a farther distance to school.

That’s why I  have tried to emphasize the fact that you 
just can’t take this in isolation and look at it.

I ’m going back to the point that you made, that the 
community has to look at the school as the community as 
a whole, and if it dose this it may find it advisable to change 
the grade structure, in which case the pupil would not be 
going to that school.

Q. I  guess we could visualize or imagine a lot of things, 
but we’re not changing the grade structure.

Suppose the grade structure stays just like it’s been 
for a hundred years, that we have Grades 1 through 6 in 
these elementary grades, and there’s no reason that I know

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of or that I think you can suggest why we should change 
it. If  that he true, our grade structure is not changed,—

— 378—

A. Wait.
Q. —and this child living within two blocks of Heidel­

berg— A. But my point is there may be good reasons to 
change.

I f  you have a school that is not being utilized, that in 
itself may be an excellent—

The Court: Doctor, can you accept the hypotheti­
cal proposition given to you by counsel, that there is 
no change?

The Witness: Well, if he’s asking me what I 
would do if the grade structure were not to be 
changed, I  can answer that.

Mr. Luckett: Well, that—
The Witness: But if he is—
The Court: That’s exactly what he asked you.
The Witness: Well, your Honor, I  wasn’t sure.
Let me just clarify my confusion over the ques­

tion,—
The Court: All right, sir.
The Witness: -—and then I ’ll proceed.
If  he’s asking me where I would send pupils, 

where my opinion is to send them, my answer is I
—379—

would send them in terms of a plan that regarded 
the utilization of all of the facilities in the com­
munity, and by looking at all the facilities I might 
very well come to the conclusion that the grade struc­
ture might well be changed, that in a school that’s

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not being used you might be better off to reduce the 
number of grades there, in which case a child who 
lived across the street might have to go to another 
school.

Now, if he—
The Court: I understand your position on that, 

but you still haven’t answered Mr. Luekett’s ques­
tion.

The Witness : All right.
Now, what is the question?
The Court: I f  you accept the proposition that 

the Clarksdale school system will maintain a grade 
structure in each of its elementary schools includ­
ing six grades, starting on that premise,—

The Witness: On that premise?
The Court: Right.
The Witness: That’s not what I  recommend, but 

that’s the premise.
The Court: —where would the child in the loca­

tion pointed out by Mr. Luckett logically go?
The Witness: Probably to the school—to the—

—380—
that was the Kirkpatrick that you were pointing to. 

Mr. Luckett: All right, sir.

By Mr. Luckett-.

Q. Now, you were saying, “That’s not what I  recom­
mend.” A. No. I—

Q. You’re not recommending a change in our school 
structure, are you? A. No. I ’m not either recommending 
or not recommending it.

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I ’m only saying that until you analyze the facilities as 
a whole and try to see what would be the best way to 
utilize the facilities I  would not rule out a change in the 
grade structure, and for that reason I  would not be cate­
gorical about saying what school a person should attend.

Q. I take it, then, you have not made that analysis your­
self? A. I  haven’t made the kind of analysis that would 
lead me to recommend categorically that you change the 
grade structure, nor have I  made the kind of analysis that 
would lead me to say that it is appropriate to keep the 
grade structure that you have.

Q. Well, would you suppose that the School Board and
—381—

the Superintendent who live here and have worked with 
this problem for years have made that sort of analysis? 
A. I  don’t know whether they have or not.

Q. Have you made any inquiry about whether they have? 
A. I have not asked them whether they have studied the 
grade structure.

Q. Well, who do you think would be better qualified to 
decide that particular question—you who made this lim­
ited study that you say or these people who have lived 
with the problem for years and have studied it? A. Well, 
not knowing those people, I couldn’t say how qualified they 
would be.

Q. Do you question their qualification? A. I neither— 
I just don’t know what they are.

Q. Have you tried to inquire about who they are and 
what their qualifications are? A. No.

Q. Now, I understand you to say that insofar as the 
Riverton zone is concerned that you would say that these

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children in the westerly section of Riverton should go to 
the present Riverton School and these children in the east­
erly section of Riverton should go to the Oakhurst School?

— 382—

A. No. I  was referring to the part that juts out right next 
to the tracks in the Riverton district, the part that’s closest 
to the Clark.

Q. Don’t you— A. That part there.
Q. Do you— A. That some of those should go either 

to Clark or perhaps go to Oakhurst.
Q. You realize they are across the river, do you not? 

A. Yes.
Q. That makes no difference so far as you’re concerned? 

A. Not as far as the conclusions are concerned.
Q. I  see. A. I  don’t say that it—
Q. Do you know that that distance there is the same, 

whether they go to the Riverton School or to the elemen­
tary school up here at Oakhurst, at the Oakhurst site,— 
A. Would you—

Q. —by actual measurement? A. Would you repeat 
that?

Q. Do you know that the distance that they have to 
travel once they cross that bridge, whether they go north

— 383—

or west to a school, is the same distance? A. No.
I think this point should be made, however: That, in 

looking at distances, pupils do not travel in a straight line 
to school, that sometimes the shortest way to get to school 
is not in a straight line, and for that reason I  would not 
always say that, looking at a map as the crow flies, the 
closest school to a person’s home is the one that’s closest 
on the map.

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Now, it may be in particular cases that the closest school 
by the way the person should go would not necessarily be 
the closest one in terms of as the crow flies.

Q. Well, I  know they’re not going to fly to school, Mr. 
Lieberman. I  wasn’t thinking of that. That didn’t occur 
to me.

But as they would walk ordinarily to school— A. Bight.
Q. —from this particular neighborhood, where they go 

from this particular point, they have to get to that par­
ticular point before they go to make a turn either to the 
north or continue west, and that particular distance to 
this school is at least as close as this particular distance up

—384—
here to this particular school.

You said they were closer. You’re wrong in that, are 
you not, Mr. Lieberman?

You have not made that measurement, have you? A. 
Well, I don’t know where you are pointing your pencil. 
I mean I—and where you put your pencil down, and what 
the exact mileage is from that point to the schools—

Q. Well, have you made those measurements? A. Well, 
I ’m trying to explain I ’m not sure—

Q. Well— A. You put your pencil down on a map, and 
I  don’t know what—

Q. You know who we’re talking about, don’t you? A. 
That’s my point. I ’m not—I don’t—

Q. Well, you were telling about the pupils in this par­
ticular area, that is, between the river and the railroad, 
who were in Zone E-2-B,— A. Right.

Q. —these particular pupils right here,— A. Yeah.
Q. —and you said they would be closer to the Oakhurst

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561

School. A. I said they are closer to Clark, and I  believe
—385—

that some of them would be closer to Oakhurst.
Q. All right.
You think they ought to go to Clark? A. Some of them; 

yes.
Q. I  see. All right.
And you think that these in here ought to go to the Oak­

hurst, that is, in the easterly section of the Riverton School 
district,— A. I wouldn’t—

Q. —Zone E-2-B? A. I  wouldn’t be too sure of that. 
That would depend upon an analysis of that whole section.

Q. Would that depend upon the fact they happen to be 
white people there, sir? A. No; not with me.

Q. All right.
Well, do you understand that there are white people in 

that area?
I ’m talking about the easterly section of Zone E-2-B, the 

Riverton section. A. I  think at one time that was in my 
consciousness, if I may say that. As I  have been talking

—386—
here this morning, I  had not thought of that as either white 
or Negro.

Q. Well, assuming that it is a fact that at least half of 
that territory is occupied by white residences, with white 
families living in it, when that line was drawn requiring 
the pupils in that particular neighborhood to go to this 
particular school, that is, to the Riverton School, here in 
Zone E-2-B,— A. Yeah.

Q. —race could not have been a consideration if we were 
trying to just create all black schools and all white schools, 
could it? A. I don’t know. That’s what you’ve got.

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Q. Don’t you understand, Mr. Lieberman, that under this 
plan every child in this particular zone, when he reaches 
a grade in his plan, is required to go to the school in his 
district? A. Yeah.

Q. Do you understand that?
Do you understand, so far as the first grade was con­

cerned, there were 20 or 30 white pupils last year who 
were required by the plan in this Riverton district to go 
to this Riverton School? A. I  believe that; yes. I  believe 
I  recall that.

—387—
Q. Now, the fact they are not there is not the fault of 

the plan, is it?
The fact they are not over there in the Negro school is 

not the fault of the plan, is it? A. It might be the fault 
of the plan.

Q. How could it be the fault of the plan? A. Because 
if the plan is so drawn that you have a very few white 
students in a predominantly Negro school and you draw a 
plan so that you can maximize segregation, if only a few 
white families will move, I  think there’s something wrong 
with that plan.

Q. Well, then, you think the thing should be done to 
correct racial imbalance?

That’s what you’re talking about—racial imbalance? 
A. No. I  think the plan should be drawn so it doesn’t 
maximize segregation.

Q. I  see.
Well, insofar as this particular area is concerned, if all 

whites are in there and all blacks are in there, whether 
that maximizes it or minimizes it is something over 
which the School Board has got no control, has it? A. Oh,

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— 388—

I  think the School Board’s policies will have a great deal 
to do with the racial composition of the schools. I  think, 
for example, if the School Board were to draw lines—

Q. That’s not the question I  asked you. A. Well, ask 
it—

I ’m sorry.
Would you repeat the question?
Q. About half of this area is occupied by white chil­

dren— A. Right.
Q. —of white families, and about a third of them, a 

third of the children, I  suppose, over there are white 
children.

Now, that’s the situation that confronts the School Board, 
isn’t it? A. Rig’ht, as far as I  know.

Q. And if we provide a school to take care of the chil­
dren in that particular area, which is a very definite area 
of Clarksdale, is it not, bounded on the north by a rail­
road track and on the east by a river and on the south 
by a highway and on the west by the boundaries of the 
town?

That is a very definite area in Clarksdale, is it not, a
— 389—

very definite neighborhood, is it not? A. It would seem 
to be.

Q. Yes, sir.
And if we provide a school for that particular neighbor­

hood and require every child in that area, if he goes to 
public school, to attend that particular school, can you 
fault the plan on account of race consideration? A. You 
may; yes.



564

Q. You, I suppose, are familiar with the Pierce case, 
which holds that you cannot require children to attend 
public school!

Mr. Bell: We object, your Honor.
I ’m not familiar with the Pierce case, and I  

thought I  knew them all, and I  don’t think the wit­
ness should be expected to—

Mr. Luckett: That’s a landmark case.
The Court: Wait just a minute.
This is an area of opinion, and the basis upon 

which the opinion is expressed is a fit subject of 
inquiry on cross examination.

The objection is overruled.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. The Pierce case is a case from Oregon in which the
—390—

Supreme Court held that the statute of Oregon requiring 
all children of Oregon of school age to attend public school 
was unconstitutional.

Do you recognize the case now? A. Yes.
Q. And you know about that principle? A. Yes.
Q. So, you know that neither the State of Mississippi 

nor the City of Clarksdale nor the School Board can re­
quire a child over here, whether he be colored or white, 
or whether he be a white child or the child of Dr. Henry 
who goes to a parochial school—that neither the School 
Board nor the State of Mississippi nor the City of Clarks­
dale can require that child to attend public school?

Do you accept that as a fact? A. Are you talking now 
as a legal issue?

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565

Q. Yes. This is a fact of life that we’ve got to live with.

The Court: I  think it probably would be better 
to ask whether you took that legal principle that 
he’s talking about into account in expressing your 
opinion.

The Witness: Well, the answer to that would be 
yes, that I  am aware of the fact that a state cannot

—391—
legally require all pupils to attend public schools..

If  that’s what counsel was inquiring, the answer 
to that question is yes; I ’m aware of that.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Well, you have evidently concluded there’s some­
thing wrong with the plan because these white parents 
here did not choose to send their children to public school? 
A. Let me put it this way: I think that a plan should 
take into account how people will react to it and what 
they will do, and if you draw up a plan so that it results 
in underutilization of facilities, for example, then I  think 
that the plan should be looked at again.

Q. Well, do you think there’s underutilization of the 
Riverton School plant? A. No.

Q. You’re saying it is overcrowded, aren’t you? A. 
Riverton ?

Q. Yes. A. Well, it has some rooms that are over 
maximum, and the school compared to the schools attended 
by the white children—it’s certainly overcrowded; yes.

Q. You say it’s overcrowded and it should have more 
rooms, but those rooms should not be built there; is that

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—392—
it? A. No. What I  had said was that Booms 7 through 12 
at Biverton are over their rated capacity.

Q. What do you understand “rated capacity” to mean! 
A. Well, that’s the figure—“rated capacity” means the 
number of pupils that you can reasonably accommodate 
in a room.

Q. How do you know that’s the definition of “rated 
capacity”? A. Well, you don’t—you don’t know the defini­
tions are right or wrong. I ’m merely telling you the 
definition that I  used.

Q. Well, you’re taking that figure from the statements 
made by the School Board,— A. Yes.

Q. —aren’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that that was the meaning of “rated 

capacity” as the School Board used it there? A. Well, 
this has a meaning that’s commonly given to it, and I— 
it’s the meaning that I  would—that I have ascribed to it.

Now, my point was with reference to Biverton that
—393—

rather than build additional rooms there it would be more 
feasible to rezone and send some of those pupils to schools 
that have far—that have a great deal of unused capacity.

Q. Well, you’re speaking, I suppose, now of the Eliza 
Clark School particularly? A. That is one; yes.

Q. Well, that’s the particular one, isn’t it? A. That’s, 
I ’d say, a glaring example of the thing I am pointing to.

Q. Well, which is the other one? A. Well, in all the— 
all the white schools in the community have substantial 
unused space, but—or it’s not that the rooms aren’t being 
used, but the number of pupils in the classrooms are sub­



567

stantially lower, class size is substantially lower, than in 
the Negro schools.

The point about the Clark School is, however, that it 
is much closer to a number of Negro students who must 
travel a longer distance to a Negro school.

Q. You understand we’ve got six vacant classrooms at 
the Myrtle Hall School? A. Yes.

Q. Do you understand there is a vacant room at the 
George Oliver School?

— 394-

Do you understand that? A. That may be. I—
Q. Well, they would be what you would call Negro 

schools, wouldn’t they—Myrtle Hall and George Oliver? 
A. What I  would call what?

Q. You call them Negro schools? A. Myrtle Hall—I 
would say yes.

Q. Would you call George Oliver the same? A. Yes.
Q. And—
Well, you’ve answered the question there.
Do you know anything about the physical condition of 

the Eliza Clark School? A. I  went by the school. I  did 
not go inside of it. So, I  don’t know the internal condition.

Q. Do you know that there is a very grave danger of 
that school having to be abandoned on account of the 
shifting of the foundation? A. I  have no such information.

Q. You, of course, know that there’s going to be a transi­
tion from this joint operation out here at the westerly 
edge of two into the junior and senior high school here 
known as the Elizabeth Dorr School and the Bobo High

— 395-

School? A. I understand that is planned.

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568

Q. That’s coming next year! A. I understand that’s the 
plan.

Q. And that will necessarily bring more pupils into this 
particular grouping of schools! A. Well, if that’s where 
you’re going to bring them, the answer would be yes, I 
suppose.

Q. I ’m sure that you will agree that schools ought to 
be built to take into consideration the future needs of the 
town, don’t you, Mr. Lieberman!

In fact, that’s one of your points! A. That’s right.
Q. I  show you a map—and, of course, I ’m sure you 

don’t know these facts. If  these green spots on the map 
represent houses that have been built in the last 15 months 
throughout Clarksdale, that would indicate to you that 
this development in the westerly edge of town is going 
to take up some of the slack you were talking about in 
the Heidelberg or Kirkpatrick School! A. Not neces­
sarily.

Q. Well, if there are enough people there, it would,
—396—

wouldn’t it ! A. You can have a housing development, 
for example, for elderly people who have no children.

Q. Well, this is just normal— A. I mean just to know 
there were houses there would not be enough to know you 
ought to build more schools there.

Q. Well, let’s say they’re not just for elderly people, 
but just ordinary residences where people come and build 
a house and start living. There’s no unique thing about 
the development of these particular houses or residences 
for individuals in this town. They’re just normal people— 
A. Well—

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569

Q. —who build a house to live there. A. Well, they 
may be normal, but let me put it this way: The number 
of children will vary a great deal depending upon the 
nature of the housing development that you have there. 
So, I  think, from an administrative standpoint, a person 
would not just say, “Well, there are so many houses there; 
how many more school buildings or classrooms do you 
need?”

You would have to know more about the constituency 
in that housing development to make an intelligent judg­
ment about your school needs.

—397—
Q. I  see. I  see.
I f  three or 400 houses were to be built out here for 

ordinary residences for ordinary people, people 25 or 30 
years of age, starting a family, you wouldn’t assume by 
that that would bring with it the need for school develop­
ment? A. Yes. If  there were not capacity available, yes.

Q. It would affect the capacity that is available, would 
it not?

Every time you bring a new family into a neighborhood 
with school children you affect the capacity of the school 
in that particular neighborhood or the school to which 
they’re going to be assigned, don’t you? A. Well, you 
may affect the use of the capacity. I  mean the capacity 
may be existing.

Q. Well, the pupils would go to school— A. Yes.
Q. —and acid that— A. Yes.
Q. -—many pupils to the school? A. I  don’t think we 

disagree on that point.
Q. I don’t see how we could.

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570

Now, you said Myrtle Hall is grievously overcrowded?
—398—

A. Well, it has Rooms 1, 3 and 4 which are at—-the net 
enrollment is at the rated capacity, and Rooms 5, 7, 8 and 
10 have a net enrollment which is over the rated capacity.

Q. Mr. Lieberman, it has 20 classrooms and 502 pupils 
out there. I f  we had the teachers to staff those classrooms 
and if we provide them next year, you’d have less than 25 
pupils. You’d have around 25 pupils per classroom there, 
wouldn’t you? A. I ’m not—

Q. Twenty into 500 would be 25, wouldn’t it? A. I ’m 
not questioning your arithmetic. It was the other informa­
tion I  wasn’t sure I  understood.

Q. Well, you are familiar with the fact that throughout 
this school district we have 426 Negro pupils who are 
going to school in the School District of Clarksdale who 
are not entitled to go here because they don’t live with 
their parents or with their legal guardian; they are non­
residents of the district?

You know that fact— A. I was—
Q. —from the interrogatories? A. Yes; I had some in­

formation on that. I  didn’t recall the exact number. I
—399—

understood there were some.
Q. Well, if they were excluded from these schools, that 

would relieve some of the overcrowding, would it not? A. 
Yes; presumably.

Q. What do you think ought to be done about those 
pupils ?

Do you think they ought to be left there and overcrowd 
or put out and relieve the overcrowding? A. Well, I

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571

think that there is space available in the white schools 
in this community and that the zone lines should be drawn 
to take advantage of that space.

Q. To provide schooling facilities for people who are 
not entitled to go to school here in Clarksdale? A. Well, 
if you—if you have—if your school policy is not to provide 
schooling for children who are not legal residents and 
you apply that without regard to race, that may be a 
defensible policy.

Q. That happens to be the law of the State of Mississippi, 
not a matter of school policy. A. Well—

Q. We accommodated ourselves to it up to now. Whether 
we can do it in the future I don’t know. A. Eight,

—400—
Q. I  was just asking your opinion about what should be 

our policy. You’re giving us some advice on these problems.
A. Well, I  would not personally want to adopt a policy 

that prevented any child from getting a good education.
Q. You’ve noticed that some of the white children who 

are nonresidents have also come into the school district in 
the past several years, as the answers to the interrogatories 
indicate? A. I recall that there were some. I  don’t recall 
the exact figure.

Q. And that they came under what you would call a 
legal transfer, that is, with the consent of the district 
from which they came and with the consent of the district 
into which they came, to wit, the Clarksdale Municipal Sep­
arate School District? A. I  believe, if I  recall that, those 
were white students.

Q. Yes, sir.
And you recall since 1960 those white pupils, these non­

resident white pupils, have paid a total of $225,000 into

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572

the school district by way of tuition while the colored pupils
—401—

who have come in here have paid $190, haven’t they?
That’s in the interrogatories, isn’t it? A. Well, I ’m not 

—as I say, I don’t recall the figures.
Q. Do you know about the accreditation of our schools? 

A. Do I  know what about the accreditation?
Q. Well, do you know whether they are accredited or 

not accredited? A. I  know that—I looked at the interrog­
atories and I  believe the schools were accredited, that the 
white schools were accredited.

Q. How about the Negro schools? A. I  wasn’t sure now 
whether they were or not.

Q. If  you will refer— A. I  believe they have been 
seeking accreditation.

Q. What’s that? A. I  believe they have been seeking 
accreditation and have just received it.

Q. You don’t know, as a matter of fact, that the answers 
to the interrogatories show that every Negro school in 
the City of Clarksdale—

—402—
That’s what you call a denominated Negro school. After 

all, we’re not supposed to refer to them by race.
But the schools, we’ll say, that are called Riverton and 

Booker T. Washington—
Riverton is a new school. A. Right.
Q. So, that shows an application.
Booker T. Washington-—what’s its classification? A. It 

says Class AA.
Q. Myrtle Hall? A. Well, I know the letters. I  don’t 

know what they stand for.
Q. Myrtle Hall?

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573

Well, assuming that’s—
If you just, give the letters, then we’ll let the Court know 

what they stand for.
What is the rating or accreditation given to Myrtle Hall? 

A. It says Class AA.
Q. George Oliver? A. AA.
Q. Higgins Junior-Senior? A. AA.

—403—
Q. How about Heidelberg? A. Wait. I  just—this is 

under the Mississippi Accrediting Commission.
Q. Yes. That’s right. A. Heidelberg is Class A.
Q. Kirkpatrick? A. Class A.
Q. Oakhurst? A. Class A.
Q, Eliza Clark? A. Class A.
Q. Clarksdale Junior High School? A. Just says ac­

credited.
Oh, Class AA.
Q. Clarksdale Senior High School? A. Class AA.
Q. We have three secondary schools in the system, do 

we not—the Higgins Junior-Senior High School, the Clarks­
dale Junior High School and the Clarksdale Senior High 
School ?

Does this show that every one of them have been ad­
mitted to full membership in the Southern Association of 
Schools and Colleges? A. Yes; it does.

—404—
Q. Do you know whether many towns in the State of 

Mississippi can make that statement, Mr. Lieberman? A. 
I  don’t know.

Q. Would it surprise you that only one other town in 
the State of Mississippi can make that statement, the City 
of Natchez? A. It doesn’t surprise me.

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574

Q. Do you know what the Southern Association of 
Schools and Colleges is! A. In a general way.

Q. It ’s a regional accrediting— A. Right.
Q. —association, is it not? A. Right.
There are six regional accrediting organizations in the 

country.
Q. You have one in your part of the country. A. There’s 

a New England,—
Q. We have one in our part of the country. A. —a 

North Central, a Southern—
Q. Do you know when they evaluate a school they send 

in a team of 50 people from universities, state departments
—405—

of education and other schools and spend a minimum of 
two and a half days in a study of a particular school before 
they evaluate the school? A. Who is the “they”?

Q. They being the Southern Association of Schools and 
Colleges, the accrediting agency. A. I ’m not familiar with 
the operations of the Southern Association of Schools and 
Colleges.

Q. I f  that be true, then, you would think that would 
be a rather thorough investigation, would you not? A. I 
would doubt it very much.

Q. You would doubt it very much? A. I  would. I would 
doubt that they make a thorough investigation.

Q. Why do you say that? A. Because I ’ve had some 
experience with accrediting agencies, and my experience 
with them in general has been that their investigations 
are not especially thorough.

Q. Does that include the investigation made by the 
Southern Association of Schools and Colleges? A. No; 
it does not.

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575

Q. So, you are casting a reflection on that association 
without knowing anything in the world about it, aren’t

—406—
you! A. No; I  wasn’t casting a reflection on it. I  was 
merely making this observation: That my experience with 
accrediting organizations is that their investigations and 
analyses are not what I  would regard as adequately 
thorough, and I have no reason to assume the Southern 
Association is any better or any worse or any different 
from the others.

Q. Do you think your investigation of the Clarksdale 
school system has been adequate and thorough, adequately 
thorough, as you explained? A. For some purposes; not 
for others.

Q. Let’s see. You have been here, was it, three days 
or two days?

Did you make it three days or two days?
Is that the length of your stay here—two days or three 

days? A. I  believe this was my fourth day.
Q. Prior to getting on the witness stand it was three 

days, then, so far as the study is concerned? A. Today is 
my fourth day.

Q. Are you a member of the NAACP? A. No.
Q. Are you employed by the NAACP? A. No.

—407—
Q. Are you employed in this case by the NAACP? A. 

No.
Q. Who is paying you for your services in this case? 

A. The NAACP Legal Defense Fund.
Q. Well, you’re employed by the NAACP Legal Defense 

Fund, then? A. Correct.

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576

Q. Have you been employed by it in other cases! A. No.
Q. Is this the first time yon have testified for them? 

A. In court; yes.
Q. Well, where else have you testified if not in court? 

A. Well, it’s the first time I have testified in any legal 
proceeding.

Q. Did you help with the preparation of the interroga­
tories in this case? A. I suggested some questions con­
cerning—

Q. You didn’t tell that on your direct examination, about 
your participation in this case, did you, Mr. Lieberman?

—4 0 8 -
Now, do you realize that beginning with the school term 

1965-1966 there is no distinction whatsoever in the salaries 
paid teachers in the school system over the Clarksdale 
Municipal Separate School District? A. It is my under­
standing that the Board has made some statements that 
as of that date there wall be no distinctions.

Q. You don’t know, then, that the contracts have already 
actually been executed? A. No; I don’t know that.

Q. Do you know whether additional teachers are going 
to be hired or have been hired and contracts executed for 
the employment of additional teachers in the schools that 
we refer as being south of the track? A. No. I have no 
information on that.

Q. Do you know that there are going to be fewer teachers 
in the schools north of the track next year than we have 
ever had before? A. I have no information on that.

Q. That being true, if those facts are true, that more 
teachers are employed for schools south of the track and 
fewer for those north of the track, the teacher-pupil ratios

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577

in the various schools will tend to come close together,
—4 0 9 -

will they not? A. Well, they would; but, of course, from 
the standpoint of administrative practice, it might he a 
better thing to do to send more pupils rather than hire 
more teachers. In other words, you don’t have equaliza­
tion of utilization of staff.

Q. Well, if we have, say, six vacant classrooms at Myrtle 
Hall and we have, say, one vacant classroom at George 
Oliver, do you know any reason in the world why they 
should not be utilized? A. I can think of some—I can 
think of some possibilities which would be legitimate rea­
sons for not utilizing them.

Q. Well, do you know of any fact-— A. I  don’t know—
Q. Do you know of any fact, Mr. Lieberman—
We are not talking about something you pull out of 

thin air.
From your studies, this detailed study you made of the 

schools of Clarksdale, do you know of any real fact why 
the vacant schoolroom at George Oliver should not be 
utilized in the coming school year? A. I  would say that 
I see some reasons that might lead me to say that that

— 410—

would not be the right thing to do.
Q. Why?
Racial reasons? A. No. Reasons concerning the dis­

tance pupils travel, for example.
Q. Where are you going to send those pupils? A. Well, 

let me put it—let me try to answer your question this 
way: I f  a school system such as Clarksdale has a problem 
concerning some schools being overcrowded and others

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578

being underutilized and there’s a substantial difference in 
class size, those problems can be resolved in a number of 
different ways, one of which is to send more teachers to 
the schools that are overcrowded. Another way is to 
rezone the school district, for example, so that—and there 
are other things that can be done. You can change the 
grade structure of the school district,—

Q. Well, that all— A. —so that—
Q. —is a matter of judgment, is it not, sir!
That’s a matter of judgment, is it not, sir,— A. Well, 

judgment is—
Q. —as to what approach you take! A. Well, judg­

ment is involved.
— 411—

Q. Well, what else is involved besides judgment when 
you make a decision as to which avenue you travel?

That is a matter of judgment, isn’t it? A. Well, you 
have to have criteria on which you make your judgment.

Q. I understand. A. You can’t—
Q. We have criteria. The criteria is overcrowded con­

ditions or underutilization, or whatever way you use it. 
We have got those basic criteria before us now.

It ’s a matter of judgment whether you shift the pupils 
or bring teachers into the schools, isn’t it?

That’s a matter of judgment, isn’t it? A. Well, in a 
sense, it is ; yes.

Q. And that judgment is reposed in the School Board 
of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, isn’t 
it? A. To be exercised in a certain way; yes.

Q. It ’s not reposed in you— A. No.
Q. —or me, is it? A. It’s not reposed in me. I ’m not

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579

Q. Well, I don’t have that responsibility either, sir.
—412—

I ’m not a member of the School Board.
Q. Are you familiar with the cost of land and property 

in and around Clarksdale? A. The figures that I have— 
there was—in one of the interrogatories there was a refer­
ence made to the cost of acquiring a school site, I believe, 
for $3,000 an acre, and the comment was made if it had 
been acquired sooner the cost would have been $1500 an 
acre.

Q. Yes, sir.
That’s naked, raw land, isn’t it? A. I  don’t know.
Q. You haven’t been to the Riverton School site? A. 

I don’t recall now the specific site which those figures 
applied to.

Q. Well, now,— A. I  could—
Q. —there was some reference about the reasonableness 

of prices.
Does $3,000 an acre for undeveloped land appear to be 

high to you?
Is that, in your opinion, high or low or average or 

what-not? A. Well, that would be hard to characterize.
—413—

I would say it would be—well, I ’d have to know more about 
the values here to characterize it.

Q. Do you have any idea how much it would have cost 
the School Board to have acquired a central location in 
this zone on which to build the new Booker T. Washington 
School? A. You mean how—

Do you want me to say do I know what the figure 
would be?

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580

The answer would be no.
Q. An approximate figure; just how much you— A. 

Well, I  don’t know—I don’t know the figure, but I know 
that, generally speaking, site acquisition is a relatively 
minor part of school construction and development.

Q. Well, it should be a minor part; isn’t that right, sir?
You shouldn’t spend as much on the school site as you 

should on the school, itself, should you? A. No; you 
should not.

Q. And if the site is going to cost as much as the school, 
then you’ve got to go and get a cheaper site, don’t you? 
A. Well, I  would assume that one would not pay as much

—414—
for the site as he would for the school, although again you 
could visualize circumstances where that might have to 
be done; but I wouldn’t assume that would be the case 
here in Clarksdale.

Q. Why do you assume that? A. Well, because there 
isn’t anything in this particular situation that would lead 
me to assume that the School Board would have to pay 
as much for the site as it would for the school. There is 
no reason for me to draw that conclusion.

I  could think, for example, in a large urban center like 
New York or Detroit where you might have to buy a site 
that might be enormously expensive, but I don’t see that 
as the situation here.

I  think sites are—
Q. Well, your cohort said it should take at least 10 

acres of land for an elementary school or that would be 
recommended. Do you go along with that statement? A. 
I wouldn’t see any reason to object to it.

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581

Q. Well, a school the size of— A. Do you know what—
Q. A school the size of Booker T. Washington ought 

to have, say, a 10-acre campus? A. That would sound"
—415—

reasonable to me.
He knows—he’s an expert in that field. I ’d be inclined 

to follow his judgment.
Q. Then we would have to buy a central location of about 

10 acres in their neighborhood if we would centrally locate 
Booker T. Washington School in this zone? A. Well, if 
you have 10 acres for it and you’re going to buy a site 
of 10 acres, why, you’re going to have to buy a site of 10 
acres.

Q. That’s right.
And if it’s put into the center of the zone, in an already 

developed area, you’ve got to buy up developed property, 
do you not? A. Well—

Q. That’s necessarily true, isn’t it?
If  there is no vacant property in the center of town, 

the only way you can get it is to buy developed land and 
tear it down and make it vacant on which to build a school, 
isn’t it? A. Well, if those are the facts, the answer is yes.

Q. The same thing would be true in the Biverton area 
or any area?

You say that this Booker T. Washington School is a
—4 1 6 -

perimeter school? A. That is at the edge—
Q. Is that what you call it? A. It’s at the edge of the 

community.
Q. Yes, sir.
And it would be better if it were more centrally located ? 

And we agree with you.

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582

That is right, isn’t it, sir!
The same thing is true of the Riverton School! A. I 

think that a more feasible arrangement could have been 
made.

Q. Well, do you know that when this particular school 
site was developed here, right here, that that was a 
perimeter school! A. I didn’t know that,

Q. Did you know that when the Kirkpatrick School was 
developed that that was a perimeter school! A. I don’t 
k n o w  what the situation was at the time those schools 
were built.

Q. Do you know that the Heidelberg was a perimeter 
school; actually, the site was outside the city at that par-

—417—
ticular time! A. I  did not have that information.

Q. Well, they are no longer perimeter schools, are they! 
A. Well, perimeter—

Q. Heidelberg and Kirkpatrick—they are not perimeter 
schools! A. Well, “perimeter school” is your phrase. I 
have talked about a school being at the edge of the popula­
tion from which it draws.

Q. I  picked it up from Mr. Neuwien. A. Well—
Q. That’s where I  got the phrase.

Mr. Luckett: I think that’s all, your Honor.
The Court: Will you have redirect!
Mr. Bell: No; we do not, your Honor.
The Court: You may stand down, Doctor.
The Witness: Thank you.
The Court: Court is in recess until 2 o’clock.

(Thereupon, at 12 noon, the Court recessed until 
2 p. m.)

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583

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— 418—

A fternoon S ession

(The Court reconvened and the hearing was con­
tinued at 2 p. m.)

The Court: You may be seated.
You may call your next witness.
Mr. Bell: The plaintiffs call Dr. Wilkins.
The Court: Mr. Bell, didn’t you previously offer 

and wasn’t there received the deposition of this 
witness?

Mr. Bell: That is correct, your Honor.
The Court: Well, in the light of that, I  suggest 

that you make the testimony from the witness stand 
as brief as possible,—

Mr. Bell: All right.
The Court: —assuming that you got the benefit 

of rather complete testimony in the deposition.
Mr. Bell: I hope to be able to do that.
The Court: All right.

— 419-

W illiam  T. W il k in s , a witness called by and in behalf 
of the plaintiffs, having been first duly sworn, testified as 
follows :

Direct Examination by Mr. Bell:

Q. Would you state your name, please? A. William T. 
Wilkins, M. D.

Q. And you are the Chairman of the Clarksdale Munici­
pal Separate School District? A. I  am.



584

Q. You have held that office for how long, sir? A. About 
10 months.

Q. And you have been a member of the Board for how 
long? A. About 12 years.

Q. I call your attention to the construction of the River­
ton School. Could you tell the Court when the Board 
decided to build a school on the site where the Riverton 
School now stands? A. The exact date I cannot tell you. 
I  know that the school was planned there, had been planned 
there, for some time before it was built.

Q. Could you give us an idea how long “some time” is?
—-420—

A. I believe that we were making plans to build a school 
in that area before the suit, this suit, was filed, to the best 
of my knowledge.

Q. Would it have been several months before the suit 
was filed or— A. I  do not know exactly.

Q. It wouldn’t have been— A. Possibly.
Q. I ’m sorry. A. Pardon me.
Q. It would not have been more than one year before 

the suit was filed? A. Oh, no; I don’t think so. However—
Well, that’s all right. Excuse me.
Q. Are you familiar with the comprehensive city plan 

for Clarksdale, Mississippi that was discussed here yester­
day and is now, I believe, one of defendants’ exhibits? A. 
Do you mean so far as the school districts are concerned 
or so far as the City of Clarksdale is concerned?

Q. Well, I was just asking whether you, personally, are 
familiar with the comprehensive city plan. A. No; I ’m 
not personally familiar with it. All I know about it is

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—421—
what I  have heard here and what I  had previously read 
in the papers.

Q. How was the financing arranged of the Riverton 
School, Hr. Wilkins? A. Pardon me.

Q. How as the financing arranged? A. For what school?
Q. The Riverton School. A. Part of it was got, was 

obtained, from the—I believe it’s called the State Educa­
tional Finance Commission, and the rest of it was obtained 
by short-term notes.

Q. And the short-term notes were obtained from local 
financing agencies, banks? A. As I  recall, yes. I ’m not 
positive where or who bought the .notes, where the money 
was obtained.

Q. Now, is this the usual method of financing new school 
construction? A. This has been done in the past.

Also, in the past we have been able to get a greater 
portion of the money from the State Educational Finance 
Commission, and also on some of the other school build­
ings we have floated bonds to build.

Q. Now, as I understand it, there was not sufficient
—422—

funds forthcoming from the state agency in this instance; 
is that correct? A. There never—the funds coming from 
a state agency are never sufficient to build, to complete and 
build a whole school.

Our credit with the State Educational Finance Commis­
sion at this particular time and the money available was 
not sufficient to—I don’t remember how far it went, but it 
was not sufficient to build,.construct the building; no.

Q. Well, from the standpoint of the cost of financing, 
this is a more expensive method that you followed in order



586

to construct the Riverton School than would have been 
available had you had more money available from the state 
agency; isn’t that correct? A. That question is rather 
hard to answer.

Had we sold bonds, I  don’t know that it would have been 
any less expensive.

Of course, the more credit we had from the State Edu­
cational Finance Commission, the less money we would 
have had to raise from, other sources.

Q. What were the factors that resulted in this decision 
less than a year before this suit was filed to construct a 
school on the site of the Riverton School, which school was 
opened, I  believe, in the first week of January of 1965? A.

—423—
The school was needed because of the number of students 
in that area.

Q. Is there any reason why, Dr. Wilkins, the compre­
hensive city plan, referred to as one of the defendants’ 
exhibits, that speaks in terms of proposed schools that was 
published in 1962—is there any reason why that plan— 
any reason you know why that plan—would make no men­
tion of a need for a school in the area where the Riverton 
School was placed? A. I ’m very sorry. I haven’t gone 
into the comprehensive city planning plan and I  don’t 
know anything about it. I ’m not competent to answer any 
questions on that particular plan.

Q. Do you have any doubt that the plan makes no men­
tion of the fact that a school would be needed in the area 
where the Riverton School was constructed? A. I ’m not 
familiar enough with the plan to have doubt or not to have 
doubt about it.

Q. All right. A. I have never seen the—so far as I re-

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587

H ea rin g  o f  A p r il 9, 19S5

W illiam  T. W ilkins— f o r  Plaintiffs-—D irect

—424—
call, I have never seen the comprehensive city planning 
map except from a distance here in the courtroom yester­
day.

Q. I think you indicated—I ’m switching over to talk about 
Booker T. Washington School—that it was not possible to 
build a new school on the location of the old Washington 
School because of the cost of land acquisition; is that cor­
rect? A. That’s right.

Q. And I  believe your testimony or it’s my indication 
that you indicated that the site of the old school, the old 
Washington School, was somewhere in the vicinity of the 
center of the Washington school zone; is that correct? A. 
No. I don’t think that you’re accurate on that at all.

The old Booker T. Washington site was about two blocks 
from Tenth Street on Sunflower.

Q. Would Tenth Street be— A. Tenth Street is the 
highway.

Q. —relatively close to State? A. It ’s Highway 61.
Q. I point to the area that you’re indicating and esti­

mate that that is perhaps one third of the distance south 
of the north boundary of the Booker T. Washington zone.

—425—
Would that be relatively accurate? A. Well, that’s very 

roughly a third. I ’d say it was a fourth of the distance 
from the top of that zone.

Q. Now, would you repeat again what you indicated the 
cost of land acquisition would be in this general area where 
I understand site selection was initially sought? A. At 
Booker T. Washington?

Q. Yes; that general area. A. Where the old Booker T. 
Washington used to be?



588

Q. Right. A. It was in the neighborhood of two hun­
dred, two hundred and fifty thousand.

Q. For how many acres would that have been! A. It 
was two blocks. I don’t know what the acreage would have 
been in that.

Q. And that would have been the total cost for the— 
A. Acquiring the land.

Q. Acquiring the land. A. All of that land, except the 
site where the school was, was developed and had houses 
on it, and then also we could not get—well, we found that 
we would be unable to get clear title to some of that land 
even if we acquired it at that price.

—426—
Q. Why would that be, sir? A. You’ll have to ask some­

body that knows more about real estate and titles to land 
than I  do to find out.

Q. How many acres are encompassed in the Riverton 
School site?

Do you recall? A. It seems to me there are 12. I ’m not 
sure of that.

Mr. Luckett: 7.92.
The Witness: 7.92.
Pardon me.
Mr. Luckett: You are talking about the Riverton 

Elementary School site?
Mr. Bell: That’s right.
Mr. Luckett: 7.92.
Mr. Bell: Thank you.

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589

S e a r in g  o f  A p r il 9, 1965

William T. Wilkins—for  Plaintiffs—Direct 

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. Now, is there any reason, in terms of structures that 
were located on the areas initially considered for the 
Booker T. Washington site, why the land there would cost 
so much more than the Riverton site land? A. You mean 
than the present Riverton—than the Riverton site land?

—427—
Q. That’s correct. A. There was housing developments 

all over there. It was improved land, and the landowners 
thought their property was very valuable.

Q. When did these improvements take place, Dr. Wil­
kins? A. Pardon.

Q. When did the improvements in this area take place? 
A. At the old Booker T. Washington site?

Q. That’s right. A. I  have no earthly idea. They have 
been there ever since I have been in Clarksdale.

Q. Let me ask you this: Was an effort made to acquire 
land in that general area, but not right on the old site of 
the Booker T. Washington School? A. I  don’t know. I 
can’t recall.

Q. Then you are— A. There were, it seems to me, 
some other areas talked about, but I don’t know any actual 
effort was made to acquire any other property right in 
that immediate area.

Q. Then your estimate as to the land-acquisition cost is 
limited to the site of the old Booker T. Washington School;

—428—
is that correct? A. In that general area; yes.

There was no site anywhere else around in there unless 
you did go into developed land, land that had been devel­
oped, that could be acquired.



590

Mr. Bell: Just one second.
The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Bell: 1 think I  was in error earlier, and I 

would like to state for the record that the compre­
hensive city plan book we made reference to yester­
day was not actually entered into evidence.

The Court: I  didn’t remember it had ever been 
offered in evidence.

Mr. Bell: I  make a correction on that.

B y Mr. B e ll :

Q. I show you, Dr. Wilkins, a copy of the comprehensive 
city plan book for Clarksdale, Mississippi, which outlines 
the urban renewal program that was prepared and sub­
mitted in 1962, and call your attention to a map on Page 
53, reference to which was made during the case yesterday, 
and on this map it shows priorities for neighborhood 
analyses.

I  call your attention to Area IY, which covers generally
—429—

the area of the Booker T. Washington School, and addi­
tional areas, and ask you: Are you able to identify that 
as covering the area of the Booker T. Washington zone 
and the additional areas? A. Let me see.

Q. I  think this is it right here. A. This is it, but where 
is Eighteenth Street?

Eighteenth Street is down here somewhere.
That’s where the present Booker T. Washington School 

is.
This covers a part of the present Booker T. Washington 

area.
Q. Yes.

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591

Would you also be able to identify it as covering that 
part of the old Booker T. Washington or that part of the 
area on which the old Booker T. Washington School was 
located? A. Yes.

Q. Then, sir, I call your attention to the explanation of the 
area of priorities beginning on Page 52 and going on over 
to Page 55 and read to you the information contained in 
regard to Area IV, which indicates:

“This area extends eastward from the Sunflower
—4 3 0 -

River to the Illinois Central Railroad between 
Twelfth Street and South Edwards Avenue. The 
area predominantly is populated by Negroes. The 
majority of the dwellings therein are in the critical 
category, and only a few dwellings are sound, stand­
ard structures. Mixed land uses prevail throughout 
the area.”

Now, I  ask you: In view of the Planning Commission’s 
categorization of this area as one of the areas of blighted 
conditions and giving it a priority value of IV, would it 
not have been possible, sir, to purchase land in that area 
on which a school could be built for less than the amount 
that you indicated? A. The only answer I  can give to 
that is the prices that we were given on the land at the 
time that it was tried to—that we tried to obtain it, and 
we couldn’t get it under, at less than, the figure I  quoted 
you, the approximate figure that I quoted you, for two 
blocks in there. I believe it was two blocks that we wanted.

The Court: Excuse me, Mr. Bell.

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Doctor, when was the new Washington School 
constructed!

The Witness: I believe it is about six years old.
—4 3 1 -

May I ask Mr. Carruth?
The Court: That’s all right. Your memory on it 

is enough for the time being.
The Witness: I  believe it’s about six years old. 

I ’m not positive of that, though. It was built before 
this plan was set up here.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. Let me call your attention to Page 119 of the city 
planning book, which is proving rather helpful, which 
indicates that the Booker T. Washington School was con­
structed in 1960, and ask you whether that’s— A. I stand 
corrected.

Q. Is that correct, sir? A. I  don’t know whether it’s 
correct. That’s what the book says.

Q. I  just wondered whether that refreshed your memory 
any further. A. No.

Mr. Luckett: That is when it was constructed. 
The Witness: In 1960?
Mr. Bell: Just a few further questions.

By Mr. Bell:

Q. I  understand the decisive reason or primary reason
—4 3 2 -

why the Clarksdale Board determined not to renew the 
contract with the county, the junior-senior high school 
contract, was because the contract provided a racial clause

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that the two boards would jointly educate the white high 
school and junior high school pupils of the city and county 
and because this racial clause, in the view of the Board, 
was in violation of the Court’s order it was determined 
that it would not be possible to renew the contract.

Is that statement substantially accurate, sir! A. Yes; 
that statement is substantially accurate.

Q, And I believe also that the Board considered renew­
ing the contract without the racial clause and determined 
not to do so; is that correct? A. I don’t think that state­
ment is accurate.

Q. Was there consideration given to renewing the con­
tract without the racial clause? A. Not that I  am aware of.

Q. Is it your testimony, then, that no consideration was 
given to this possibility? A. Pardon. To what possibility?

Q. Of renewing the contract without the racial clause? 
A. Not that I  recall.

— 433—

Q. Isn’t it correct, though, sir, that the county, Coahoma 
County, was interested in renewing the contract?

Isn’t that correct? A. They were interested in renewing 
the contract, but so far as I  can recall the racial clause in 
there was never mentioned.

Q. As a matter of fact, they were interested in renewing 
the contract even on a one-year basis ? A. As it is written 
or as—yes; as it is written.

Q. Isn’t it also true, sir, the failure to renew the con­
tract will, in terms of pupil capacity, site location and so on, 
result in the junior and senior high school students living 
in the zone served by that school getting a poorer educa­
tion than they would have gotten had the contract been 
renewed? A. No; it is not so.

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594

Q. Isn’t it correct, sir— A. We would not—we do not— 
expect them to get a poorer education because of not re­
newing the joint contract.

Q. Isn’t it correct, sir, that for a number of years you 
have been concerned about the inadequacy of the site on 
which the Dorr and the Bobo Schools are located? A. By 
this contract having been terminated and by the policy

—434—
that the Board has recently adopted of accepting no trans­
fers into the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School Dis­
trict, we’re not going to be in such an awful crowded con­
dition in those particular areas at the present time.

Q. But, even so, the student body assigned to those 
schools for the next year will be fairly close to capacity; 
isn’t that correct? A. It will be fairly close to capacity, 
but I don’t think it will be up to the complete capacity of 
the school.

Q. There were quite a bit of protests raised from the 
Clarksdale community at the time the Board announced 
the contract would not be renewed; is that correct? A. If 
by “Clarksdale community” you mean the county, I  think 
I  can say that that is correct.

Q. I  was thinking also of residents of the City of Clarks­
dale who protested the— A. I  don’t believe there was too 
much protest from the residents of the City of Clarksdale.

Q. Didn’t newspapers of the period, just after the an­
nouncement that the Board would not renew the contract, 
contain stories to the effect that meetings had been held of 
parents who were concerned about the cancellation of the

—4 3 5 -
contract? A. I  think if you will go back and read your 
papers, if it so states-—I think you will find that those

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595

meeting’s were organized mainly by people outside of the 
City of Clarksdale, although probably some people from 
within the city did attend the meetings. I  think you will 
find out they were organized by people outside of the City 
of Clarksdale.

Q. It is correct that even within the contract, itself, it 
sets forth a number of hoped-for educational advantages 
that would be realized by virtue of the joint operation of 
the Clarksdale-Coahoma High School; isn’t that correct? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. And to some extent at least these benefits will be lost 
when that contract is canceled; isn’t that correct? A. We 
are under an order, a court order, and we have got to 
abide by that court order, and we could not renew the 
contract and still keep our faith under the court order.

Q. 'Wasn’t it quite possible to renew the contract with­
out that racial clause? A. I  don’t know. We did not,—

Q. Moreover— A. —and we could not, because there 
was never a contract presented to us that did not have

— 436—

the racial clause in it.
The only contract that I know of that they wanted to 

renew was the present contract.
Q. Moreover, even with the racial clause included, Dr. 

Wilkins, isn’t it correct that the court order requiring de­
segregation as presently approved by the Court won’t 
reach either the junior or senior high schools for a num­
ber of years? A. At present it will not; no.

Q. Then how do you interpret that the court order would 
have prohibited the renewal of this contract for at least 
one year as suggested by the Coahoma County Board? A. 
We couldn’t have stuck within our school zones.

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596

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Q. I ’m sorry. A. I  can’t answer that question.
Q. Well, did you not understand the question, sir? A. 

I apparently didn’t.
Q. Well, what aspect— A. Well, repeat the question.
Q. My question was: In view of the fact that the court 

order as presently approved is working up from the bottom, 
Grades 1 and 2, and we don’t know what the Court would

—437—
require for this fall, but as to the various schedules set 
forth in the plans submitted to the Court desegregation 
of both junior and senior high schools would not take place 
for a number of years—in view of that, what was there to 
prohibit renewal of the contract even with the racial clause 
for a period of one or two years? A. We were under a 
court order not to operate racially segregated schools, and 
we were under a court order not to even—we were told 
that we were not even supposed to designate a school as 
a white or a colored school, and being under such an order 
how could we sign a contract for the education of white 
pupils ?

Q. Well, you’re still designating, in terms of assignment, 
schools as either Negro or white; isn’t that correct, sir? 
A. Oh, no; we’re not either.

Q. In terms of pupils that you’re assigning— A. No. 
We are not designating any school as a Negro or white 
school.

We have a unit school system in the City of Clarksdale.
Q. In terms, Dr. Wilkins, of how you assign pupils, re­

gardless of how you designate your calls or classify the
- 4 3 8 -

school, isn’t it correct that as of this year all Negroes 
throughout the City of Clarksdale who are of the junior



597

or senior high school age attend the Higgins High School? 
A. In onr plan the plan was so submitted that pupils in 
grades not affected by the plan or grades not supposed to 
be desegregated by the plan in that particular year would 
attend the school that they had previously been attending.

Q. And wouldn’t that also affect the situation with the 
Clarksdale-Coahoma School? A. That I  don’t know.

Q. The fact is, Dr. Wilkins, that as the lines for the 
high school are presently drawn down the Illinois Central’s 
railroad track, and in accordance with information pro­
vided in the interrogatories, there would only be two 
Negroes who would be eligible to attend the Clarksdale- 
Coahoma School or the Bobo and Dorr Schools if the high 
school level was desegregated right at this moment; isn’t 
that correct? A. I  can’t answer that question.

Q. Why can’t you answer it? A. I  don’t have that in­
formation.

Q. Do you disagree there are only two? A. I  don’t 
have that information. I cannot disagree or agree there 
are only two.

— 439—

Q. Well, could I  read from the interrogatories, which I  
imagine you are familiar with and signed—

The Court: Mr. Bell, isn’t this a matter that will 
be settled when you, as I presume, examine the Super­
intendent ?

Mr. Bell: I think so, your Honor.
Let me just ask a few other questions.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. It’s correct, isn’t it, that under the present agree­
ment with the Clarksdale-Coahoma Boards white high

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598

school pupils from all over the county come into the 
Clarksdale-Coahoma School? A. That’s right.

Q. And it is likely that if the Coahoma School Board 
was ordered to operate its schools on a desegregated basis 
Negro pupils from outside, in the county, would be elegible 
to attend the Clarksdale-Coahoma School; isn’t that right?

Mr. Luckett: I  object.
The Witness: I don’t have any idea—
Mr. Luckett: That is a matter of speculation, if 

the Court please, and I  object.
The Court: The objection is overruled.

— 440—

The Witness: I  have no idea of what type of plan 
that the county would submit, nor what type of order 
that they would give.

By Mr. B e ll :

Q. And you don’t have any knowledge as to whether, if 
by doing away with the arrangement with the county and 
if your plan were approved—what effects that would have 
on the possibilities of actual desegregation occurring in the 
high schools north of the Illinois Central Railroad track? 
A. We still seem to be having trouble here with the word 
“desegregation” and “integration”.

Q. I  asked you before whether, based on information 
in the interrogatories, there are now at the present time 
only two Negroes of high sechool age living in the zone 
servicing the Bobo and Dorr Schools or the Clarksdale- 
Coahoma School. Now, you disagreed with that informa­
tion. A. No; I did not disagree with that information. I 
said I do not know whether that was correct or not be­
cause I  do not have that knowledge.

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599

Q. Well, do you know that it’s just a small number, sir? 
A. I  would think that there weren’t too many at the present- 
time. There are not as many now as there were when

—-441—
the zone lines were originally set up.

Q. Part of the reason there are so few, of course, is the 
action taken by the city and the county last summer in 
the deannexation of certain areas and the purchase of 
other sites where Negroes were residing; isn’t that cor­
rect? A. Yes; that would be to a certain extent correct.

Q. I would like you to tell us when you first learned 
that these transactions were going on. A. As to any 
specific date, I  do not know. The first I  knew about it 
was what I  read in the local papers.

Q. Then you must have learned of it sometime in July 
when—  A. I  have no idea. I didn’t try to fix a date in 
my mind.

Q. Well, you knew this was so, that these actions had 
taken place, before we had the hearing, the first hearing, 
on August 19th of this case, did you not? A. August last 
year?

Q. That’s right. A. I  don’t recall having known i t ; no. 
I don’t know how much of it had been under way at that 
time.

Q. Well, you just indicated that you didn’t learn any­
thing about it until you read it in the newspapers, and I

—442—
suggest that the newspapers carried stories concerning 
these activities in July of 1964. A. I  didn’t understand 
you to say anything about 1964, but if I  remember cor­
rectly my answer to that question was that I did not try 
to fix a date in my mind.

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600

Q. Well, you indicated, sir— A. I don’t know when it 
was.

Q. Did you indicate, sir, when it was published in the 
papers that you learned of it then? A. What part of it 
was published in the papers?

Q. The purchase by the city of sites around the County 
Ja il; the purchase by the county of the site around the 
County Ja il; the passing of the city ordinance to deannex 
certain sections of the town. These were published, sir— 
A. I  don’t recall that having been in the paper that early. 
It probably was. I f  it was, why, I  knew of it at that time.

Q. Well, whenever it was,—you led us to assume it 
was about that time that you learned of it—what action 
did you take? A. What action did I  take?

Q. That’s right. A. None.
— 443—

Q. Did you go to the Mayor and the City Commissioners 
and advise them of the effect of the action that they were 
taking on the zone lines that you were submitting to the 
Court? A. No.

Q. Did you advise the other members of the Boai’d of 
Education as to the effect on the zone lines that they were 
submitting to the Court of this action? A. Actually, it 
never entered my mind as to what effect it was having 
on the zone lines. We had our zone lines set up, and I 
wouldn’t have advised anybody because 1 wasn’t actually 
cognizant of what it was doing myself.

Mr. Bell: No further questions.
The Court: Any questions from this witness, Mr.

Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: Just one or two.

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601

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Cross Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. Dr. Wilkins, don’t we refer to the Riverton area of 
Clarksdale as what we would call the southwest quadrant 
of the City of Clarksdale? A. Yes.

—444—
Q. That is the area of Clarksdale that’s bounded on the 

north by the right of way of the Illinois Central Railroad 
Company, on the east by the Sunflower River and on the 
south and west by the city limits of the City of Clarksdale? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Well, I show you a copy of the comprehensive city 
plan for Clarksdale, Mississippi.

That’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Is this Page 123 of that particular plan? A. Yes.
Q. Does it show community facilities? A. Yes.
Q. Does it show both existing facilities and proposed 

facilities? A. Yes.
Q. Do you see the symbol for schools? A. Yes.
Q. Does it show a proposed school to be built in the 

southwest quadrant of Clarksdale ? A. It does.
Q. In the Riverton district? A. It does.

—445—
Q. The only difference is it is south of the highway 

rather than north of the highway where we have it? A. 
That’s right.

Q. That’s on Page 123 of the plan, isn’t it? A. Yes.

Mr. Bell: Could I see that, please?
Mr. Luckett: That’s all, Dr. Wilkins.
The Court: You may stand—
Mr. Bell: May I  have just one moment, please, 

your Honor?



602

The Court: All right.
Mr. Bell: No further questions.
The Court: You may stand down, Doctor. 
Will you call your next witness!
Mr. Bell: Call Superintendent Tynes.

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—446—
Gycelle T yn es, a  witness called by and in behalf of the 

plaintiffs, having been first duly sworn, testified as fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. B e ll :

Q. Would you state your full name, please! A. Gycelle 
Tynes.

Q. And your position with the Clarksdale School Board! 
A. School Superintendent,

Q. You have been in this position how long! A. In 12 
weeks now five years; since July 1, 1960.

Q. And you testified in the hearing in this case held 
last August; is that correct! A. August 19th at Oxford.

Q. Now, in your second set of interrogatories you make 
the statement on Page 3 that:

“As far as we can tell, there were 72 Negro school 
children and two white school children living in 
the residences located in that part of Clarksdale 
which is north of the right of way of the Illinois 
Central Railroad Company which runs from Lyon 
to Bobo which were acquired by either the City of

—447—
Clarksdale or the County of Coahoma for public 
use. Of those 74 pupils, 30 would have attended



603

either Grade 1 or Grade 2 during the 1964-’65 school 
year.”

Now— A. Which page is that!
Q. Page 3, sir.
I  think it’s part of Answer Number 1.
The bottom paragraph.
Now, I  ask you: Will you indicate—
Let’s carry on to Page 3a. The first paragraph indicates 

that:
“The area referred to includes the central business 

district of the City of Clarksdale and the real prop­
erty hereinbefore referred was located in such cen­
tral district.”

Now, we have also discussed, Superintendent Tynes, 
the effects, as far as the removal of Negroes from areas 
located above the Illinois Central Railroad tracks, of a 
city ordinance passed last July which deannexed two sec­
tions located in what I  now believe is Zone E-3-A; isn’t 
that correct? A. That is correct. Right.

—448—
Q. Now, would you give me an estimate as to how 

many Negro pupils were affected by the deannexation of 
the sections described in a newspaper story of the period 
a s :

“The two areas to be excluded are located in 
the vicinity of the Lion Oil Company tanks on East 
Second and on East Second near Planters Manu­
facturing Company.”

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I believe there were two strips.



604

Would you tell us how many students were involved 
in that? A. As close information as we have on it is 
found on Page 4 of the Interrogatory Number 2, from 
which I  will read—answer to Interrogatory Number 2, 
Question Number 2:

“Of the school children mentioned in answer to 
Interrogatory Number 1, we believe that eight have 
moved out of the State of Mississippi, that three 
others have moved out of the local community, that 
19 others live outside the city limits of the City of 
Clarksdale, . .

Apparently the answer you’re seeking is 19.
Q. Yes. A. Of course, to continue:

“. . . and that 40 now live in that area of the City
—449—

of Clarksdale which is south of the right of way of 
the Illinois Central Railroad Company running from 
Lyon to Bobo.”

Q. Now, included in the 40, would this be pupils who 
were residing in what is generally referred to as the Tuxedo 
Park area, whose homes were purchased and removed, and 
many of them moved down into sections located south of 
the Illinois Central Railroad track? A. No figure which 
we submitted in this interrogatory, any other interrogatory, 
any other document to this Court includes a single pupil 
of the Tuxedo Park area.

Those people have never been in the city, never in the 
city school district.

Q. Had you made a study as to how many pupils there 
were involved in that area? A. No.

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605

Q. Would you have an estimate based on the number— 
A. I have no idea whatsoever.

Q. Had—

The Court: Mr. Bell,—
Mr. Bell: Pm sorry.
The Court: —I ’ve listened to an awful lot of testi­

mony about Tuxedo Park, and I had had the impres-
— 450—

sion before Mr. Tynes just now said it that it never 
had been inside the city.

Is this correct!
Mr. Bell: That’s correct.
The Court: Well—
Mr. Bell: The significance of it, your Honor, as I 

think was indicated on the map setting forth the zone 
changes, is that had the zone line, the new zone 
line,—I ’m sorry—the new city line, been drawn in a 
continuous fashion, along in a generally straight line, 
that area would have been included; but, as a mat­
ter of fact, what was done is that the line continued 
—well, let us say continued from west to east in a 
generally straight fashion and then took a sharp dip 
to the south and back to the north in such fashion 
so as to exclude this area, and I  think that in view 
of that that there is significance for the issue that 
we’re trying to present.

The Court: All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Bell: I  think your last response was, Mr. 

Tynes—
The Court: He said he never had given any con­

sideration to the number of pupils in that area.

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—451—
By Mr. Bell:

Q. I  ask you, Mr. Tynes: When did you first obtain 
knowledge that the city was taking the action that we have 
been discussing concerning the purchases of property 
around the County Ja il and deannexation proceedings? A. 
My only source of information is simply the local news­
paper.

Q. So, would you also say you obtained your first infor­
mation on this in July 1964 or thereabouts? A. Whatever 
date the paper was published and carried accounts of it.

Q. Now-—

Mr. Luckett: I f  the Court please, we have been 
speaking about July and July is the date of the ordi­
nance, but that’s not necessarily the date of these 
other things. I, myself, don’t know. I  know every­
thing didn’t happen in July.

Mr. Bell: I think the newspapers reported some­
time in July that these purchases were being made, 
that the city was going to acquire this property.

Mr. Luckett: Some of the purchases were made in 
1965. Those purchases were made in Tuxedo Park 
over at least a 12-month period. It couldn’t have 
been those things happened all in the month of July.

—452—
The Court: Are you objecting, Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: Yes. I  am objecting—
The Court: Your objection—
Mr. Luckett: —to using the month of July as the 

basis of the questions that are being put to the wit­



607

ness when the witness says he doesn’t know the dates 
of the newspapers.

I f  we are going to refer to the newspapers, I sub­
mit the newspapers ought to be presented to the wit­
ness so he can recognize those dates.

The Court: The objection is overruled.
The witness has said whenever it was published in 

the paper that’s when he learned about it.

B y Mr. Bell:
Q. Now, upon learning that this action was going to be 

taken, I  ask you, Mr. Tynes, whether or not you went to 
the Mayor and City Commissioners and advised them of the 
effects of their action on the school zone lines as you had 
drawn them. A. I  have never done so. In fact, from time 
to time we read in the local newspaper concerning the ad­
dition of territory to the city or deannexation. Conse­
quently, these things are somewhat routine, and frequently

—453—
I just simply glance over them and forget about them com­
pletely.

Q. Did you do that in this—- A. Surely.
These things haven’t appeared to me as being critical.
Of course, I  am a professional person employed here to 

take care of all the children in the school district without 
any consideration whatsoever of color, whether yellow, 
black or white,—

Q. Yes, sir. A. —as the case may be.
Q. Mr. Tynes, when did it first strike home to you that, 

as a result of the actions taken by the city and county, vir­
tually every Negro pupil in the system who had previously 
lived north of the Illinois Central Railway lines had now,

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608

for one reason or another, become ineligible to attend 
schools located north of the line?

When did that first hit you? A. I  suppose when school 
opened last September.

Q. Yes. A. That’s the time.
Q. Not before that, Mr. Tynes? A. No.

Q. No one— A. We had worked up, of course, figures 
showing that between 75 and 80 pupils, Negro pupils, lived 
north of the railroad. I had no idea how many were still 
in the city or out or moved away or anything else until 
those pupils registered in September or late August, as 
the case may have been.

Q. Let me ask you this: I show you Defendants’ Exhibit 
25, which is a map showing the area—I believe the area in 
this vicinity, which was one of those areas covered by the—

Let’s see if I  can get myself oriented here. Hold on just 
a second.

Now, this map indicates the area north of town along 
Friars Point Road generally referred to as the Tuxedo 
Park area. Do you recognize it as such, sir? A. I  recog­
nize Florence Avenue and Friars Point Road as outstand­
ing,—I don’t have perfect knowledge to that effect—and 
part of this triangle area created by the intersection of those 
two roads just mentioned, Friars Point Road and Florence 
Avenue, does comprise Tuxedo Park.

Q. And, further, in the bottom portion of the map, the
—4 5 5 -

area located by the County Ja il and various surroundings 
in that part of the business district—do you recognize that? 
A. I  simply recognize the general area.

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609

Q. Now— A. Of course, this map—I  cannot identify the 
buildings.

Q. Let me ask you this: Isn’t it correct, sir, the area 
shown on this map is a part of the Elementary School Zone 
E-3-A? A. Correct, except the Tuxedo Park, of course, is 
outside the city—

Q. That’s right. A. —and completely out of that zone.
Q. Now, you indicated, I  believe, at some earlier point 

an explanation as to the disparity in or justification for the 
disparity in the Negro and white teacher salaries as fol­
lowed by the Board for the last several years? A. I 
wouldn’t call it a justification. Just simply a statement of 
facts.

Q. And what were those facts, sir? A. Well, simply 
this: I  came here five years ago. I  came from a school 
system in which we had equalized completely pupil costs

—456—
for all children in the district. Of course, I  came here, as­
sessed our situation, studied what we had, inventory, facili­
ties, checked on pupil-teacher ratios and classrooms, studied 
the entire structure here, educational setup, and saw where 
we were and where we needed to be, the mean salary, edu­
cational practices and objectives.

Now, we had to set up, of course, goal lines along the 
way in order to reach the objective.

It’s quite well known in this city, in this state, that our 
school districts are not simply as rigid as some of the dis­
tricts in other parts of the nation. Consequently, we have 
to set these up step by step.

You have information in your hand concerning answers 
to certain of the interrogatory questions in which we set 
forth, of course, the steps by which we have achieved at the

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610

beginning of the 1965-66 scholastic year complete salary 
equality in our basic salary schedule.

Q. Well— A. I  think I  stated at the January deposi­
tion, of course, which was garbled at the recording, that 
even with the attainment of that scale, which we have done, 
and already entered a contract with the teachers, and still

—457—
we lacked two or three areas, certain principals, certain key 
officials like coaches, possibly a band director or two, we 
would still lack one final step to be effected at the beginning 
of the ’66 year.

We have never stated to this Court or any other agency 
or body anywhere that we could come from Point A all the 
way to Point M or Point Z in one 12 months’ period or even 
one 24 months’ period. Had we not been well along the way 
when this suit was filed we could not say this. We cannot 
say to this Court now that we can attain these objectives at 
the dates which I  have just specified.

Q. Let me ask you this: Will the salary schedule as set 
forth in the interrogatories for the ’65-’66 school year be 
completely implemented next year, that is, will Negro teach­
ers go right on to their correct steps based on education and 
experience? A. If  you will check with Professor Stamp- 
ley or any principal, you will find that contracts have al­
ready been signed, countersigned, of course, back in the 
hands presumably of the teachers, themselves.

Every teacher who received a salary contract received 
with it, stapled to her contract, a complete, spelled-out 
salary schedule for the ’65-’66 year. This salary informa-

—458—
tion is in the hands of every professional employee of this 
school system.

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611

Q. Well, now, does that answer my question,— A. In 
my opinion,—

Q. —to this extent— A. —it answers it affirmatively.
Q. All right. A. Yes.

Mr. Bell: I think we have no further questions.
The Court: Mr. Luckett.
Mr. Luckett: May we confer just about two

minutes?
The Court: All right.
Mr. Luckett: May I  inquire, while we confer, if 

the Court please: You know, of course, Mr. Tynes 
testified at length in the August 19th hearing about 
the way these lines were drawn.

The Court: Yes, sir.
Mr. Luckett: Now, I gather this is a continuation 

of the August 19th, 1964 hearing and—
The Court: Let me say this: So far as I  am con­

cerned, all of the testimony taken at the August 19th 
hearing and all of the evidence offered on this hear­
ing will be considered by me in making such disposi-

—459—
tion as I  conclude is proper.

Mr. Luckett: Would it be a part of the record in 
the event of an appeal?

The Court: It is a part of the record so far as I 
am concerned, and it will be reviewed and considered 
again in connection with the pending matters before 
the Court.

Mr. Luckett: All right, sir.
In the interim I  want to be sure and check that a 

transcript of this particular testimony is certified 
and—

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612

The Court: Are you asking for a recess!
Mr. Luckett: Please, sir.
The Court: How much time do you estimate?
Mr. Luckett: Five minutes will he plenty.
The Court: As I  have said and as you have prob­

ably heard me say many times, I don’t know any 
member of the legal profession that can get very 
much done in five minutes, and when you combine 
them with the teaching profession that is an impos­
sible time in which to get anything done.

Court is in recess until three-twenty.

(Thereupon, at 3 p. m., a 20-minute recess was 
taken.)

—460—
The Court: You may be seated.
All right, Mr. Luckett.
Mr. Luckett: I f  the Court please, before we start, 

may I  say to the Court that the comprehensive city 
plan has not been made an exhibit to anyone’s testi­
mony up to now and both counsel for the plaintiffs 
and myself would like to have a portion of it in the 
record, particularly that portion which is under 
Chapter V dealing with housing and which includes 
Pages 47 to 57, both inclusive, and also I  would like 
to have in the record that particular map which was 
referred to in my cross examination of Dr. Wilkins 
and which is on Page 113 of the plan, and I—

The Court: Why don’t you just introduce the 
whole thing, Mr. Luckett, and if and when the case 
goes to the Court of Appeals, by your designation, 
you can eliminate the part that’s not pertinent.

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613

Mr. Luckett: We will do that, if yoar Honor 
please.

The Court: All right. Let it be received and 
marked.

The Deputy Clerk: This is Defendants’ Exhibit 26.

(The plan referred to, comprising a booklet en­
titled “A Comprehensive City Plan for Clarksdale,

—461—
Mississippi”, was marked and received in evidence 
as Defendants’ Exhibit 26.)

Mr. Luckett: With the statement from the Court 
that all the testimony that was taken in the case on 
last August the 19th is now before the Court and 
will be part of the record, we will try not to encroach 
into that particular area in our questions of Mr. 
Tynes and we’ll simply leave that as having been 
covered by that testimony on that particular date; 
but there are two or three other matters I  would 
like to ask Mr. Tynes—

The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Luckett: —to bring his testimony up to date.

Cross Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Tynes, has there been compliance by the defend­
ant Board of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate 
School District and its Superintendent with the orders of 
the Court entered in this cause at the conclusion of the 
August 19, 1964 hearing1?

—462—
Mr. Bell: We would object. That’s the issue before 

the Court, your Honor.

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614

The Court: Well, everybody who has testified has 
expressed opinions about nearly everything from A 
to Z.

The objection is overruled.
The Witness: Concerning compliance, of course, 

first, we had one case of a pupil of the first grade 
thinking he had to come to a Clarksdale school. He 
attended a county school and had given a county 
residence. It so happened that this child’s home had 
burned sometime in the summer and his parents 
rented an apartment somewhere in the city and while 
they rebuilt their home. Now, I  think they were two 
or three weeks late in getting that home completed. 
Consequently, we learned sometime in the second or 
third week that some child in the city was being car­
ried by his mother outside the city to catch a bus. 
Now, we checked on that and found that this pupil 
had never, of course, attended a Clarksdale school, 
and possibly an older brother or sister had done that. 
Of course, that terminated it immediately. In fact, 
their home was virtually completed and they moved 
back in. Of course, you could hardly say that was not 
compliance.

The second semester we had a family, a Chinese
—4 6 3 -

family, by the name of Goon—G-o-o-n—which gave 
an address outside the city. We went through the 
process of getting transfers, legal transfers, and then 
collected tuition on January; then found that actually 
this family had given an erroneous address, an ad­
dress outside the city, where in actual fact this fam­
ily was living—I think it was either in Zone E-2-A

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615

or E-2-B. I  think the corner of E-2-B. Of course, im­
mediately that child, second grader, had to be ex­
cluded from school. That perhaps went on for three 
or four days. I ’d say less than a week.

Aside from those two cases, which were of a techni­
cal nature, we have had 100 per cent compliance.

I would say so far as effort to comply is concerned 
that effort has succeeded 100 per cent. Teachers, 
principals, all staff members have been completely 
vigilant, checking, double-checking and the like. In 
fact, that’s how they found these two particular situ­
ations I just related.

So, I  say to the Court that this School Board, this 
school administration, has made every human effort 
to comply 100 per cent.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. And you mean by that in checking and seeing to it 
that no child attends a school outside of the zone in which

—464—
he or she lives'? A. Absolutely.

Q. All right, sir.
Mr. Tynes, there has been some discussion by the experts 

who came here to testify for the plaintiffs about the teacher- 
pupil ratio in the various schools in the system.

Will you address yourself to the subject of teacher-pupil 
ratio in the various schools of the system? A. When I 
came to Clarksdale live years ago this summer, I found 
that the teacher-pupil ratio for whites was approximately 
one to 30 in the elementary, and now for our Negro children 
and Negro teachers the ratio was somewhere between one 
to 50 and one to 60, somewhere up in that area.

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The first year that I was here, 1960-’61, we cut this ratio 
to one to 49. Successively thereafter we have brought it 
down. At the presest time it is slightly less than one to 35.

Now, we have been following a definite step-by-step pro­
cedure. We had never heard about going to court or any­
thing at all when this measure was adopted by the Board.

For the ’65-’66 year the School Board’s plan calls for a 
one-to-33 maximum average pupil-teacher ratio anywhere

—4 6 5 -
in the city.

In schools primarily for white children the ratio dropjjed 
two years ago because of the loss of population. At that 
time it dropped down to close to where it is now, one to 25. 
We eliminated some teachers last year working in these 
schools. We have eliminated more for the year coming up.

And now at the beginning of the 1966-’67 session, which 
is just less than 15 months away, July 1, ’66, we will have 
attained a one-to-30 ratio throughout the system.

Now, our present one-to-35 ratio meets completely the 
highest standards of the State Accrediting Commission. 
Of course, we have a top of 40 pupils, which is an accredit­
ing standard.

Now, some of the persons who have testified in here, 
pseudoexperts or complete experts in the field of education, 
seem to be not acquainted with accrediting standards, state, 
and, of course, regional as well.

We’re complying 100 per cent with the highest state and 
regional standards, of course, which apply to our schools 
presently, schools anywhere in this state. Consequently, 
we don’t come to this Court apologizing for a one-to-35 ratio 
one minute.

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—466—
Actually, we have been coming step by step in a fashion 

which would not break up the taxing district. Of course, we 
are just to the point now where we are reversing this trend 
in the schools chiefly for whites, backing it up one to 30, 
and closing the gap with the other, and then one year hence 
we will have completed that set of objectives.

Q. Do you anticipate that one year hence on that par­
ticular program that there will be no differential in the 
teacher-pupil ratio in the schools of Clarksdale! A. I can’t 
see how there can be.

Q. Sir? A. I  can’t see how there can be any differen­
tial—

Q. All right, sir. A. —or disparity.
Q. You mentioned a drop in population, wdiite popula­

tion. You’re talking about a drop in white school popula­
tion,— A. Bight.

Q. —are you not, Mr. Tynes? A. The children, of 
course, are still here increasing.

Now, two things have contributed to this temporary drop. 
Of course, it has virtually hit the bottom now. Several

—4 6 7 -
private schools have been opened in the last two or three 
years. Secondly and formerly, a great number of white 
elementary pupils, county, Coahoma County, plus even 
some adjoining counties, came into this school system on a 
tuition basis. We have been gradually, of course, phasing 
out that operation.

At present there are less than 50 white elementary pupils 
from outside the school district attending schools in the 
Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, elementary



618

schools,—that’s of the white race—of course, all at full 
tuition.

Now, July 1st, of course, that practice completely stops 
by order of the Board adopted some months ago.

We also have some 246 pupils of our Negro population 
who are simply here at the mercy of the School Board and 
who are, of course, attending schools without any legal 
right under the laws of Mississippi to do so.

Now, the State Superintendent of Education, in a com­
munication dated March the 23rd, 1965, directed attention 
to every school superintendent in the state, county and dis­
trict superintendents, concerning the requirement of the 
State Legislature’s Concurrent Resolution Number 106 
adopted in July 1964.

—468—
It seems everything was adopted in July ’64.
This resolution requires that every school superintendent 

and all of the auditors, attendance auditors, must by May 
1, 1965 give a complete accounting for all pupils attending 
the schools in the State of Mississippi, without regard to 
race or color or national origin, who are not legal, bona fide 
residents of those school districts.

We know, of course, the next step here is cutting off all 
state funds for these children.

Now, this blow right here would cost this school district 
between thirty-five and $40,000 for the current year. Of 
course, that’s over a mill tax money. Our limits in our mill- 
age structure, of course, are getting quite restricted. We’re 
getting close to the legal limit. Consequently, a thing like 
this, with which we must comply,—we have no choice—is 
just simply bound to have the result of temporarily at least 
greatly lowering our population in some of our schools.

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619

There can be no other result. Two hundred and forty-six 
pupils are right here affected as a result of one state 
statute.

Q. As I  understand it, Mr. Tynes, these children or the 
equivalent number of children have been in the schools dur­
ing the past several years, have they not? A. That is eor-

—469—
rect; this number or perhaps even greater.

Q. And they have been included in the ADA report which 
went to Jackson— A. Eight

Q. —from Clarksdale? A. Eight.
Q. And, as a result, we got some state funds to help edu­

cate these children? A. Eight.
Q. Did we have to supplement those funds? A. Yes. 

District funds were used to supplement; right.
Q. Now, if this means that the state funds are going to 

be cut off from these 246 pupils because of the fact they 
are not entitled to go to school here, then it will be necessary 
that they be excluded from the schools?

Is that what you are saying? A. They will have to be.
Q. Do you— A. In fact, under state law, they simply 

have no right to be here now. Just simply the School Board 
hates to simply turn a child away from a school door. We 
hate to do it, of course.

—470—
At the same time, may I  state, Mississippi is usually 

recorded in the lowest position on the economic ladder in 
the nation we’re perhaps educating more children in the 
State of Mississippi for other states in the union than any 
other state of the entire 49.

Q. Where do you think these 246 children come from? 
A. Well, of course, we have the Illinois Central Eailroad 
and we have Highway 51 and 61 straight north and south.

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Now, we have parents who more or less make it a prac­
tice simply to leave their children here with grandmothers 
and aunties and sisters and brothers, and sometimes, of 
course, no relatives at all, just simply give the children 
away, temporary custody, sometimes complete custody, 
even at birth. Of course, these parents move northward or 
some other direction and leave this great responsibility here 
of educating these children on what is supposed to be and 
perhaps it is the least wealthiest state in the entire union.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, something has been said about the salaries of the 

school teachers in the system and the differentials that have
—471—

existed in the past.
Will you tell the Court whether that, too, the matter of 

salaries, that problem, was attacked in the plan that was 
adopted here five or six years ago? A. Of course, when I 
came here—

May I  say one thing before answering that: When I came 
to the school system, we had a shortage of classrooms and 
different things here which were deficient; but this School 
Board and the previous administration had no way to 
know, in the light of conditions which Dr. Henry brought 
out yesterday concerning the agrarian economy, how a 
huge segment of the population was tied to the chopping 
and the picking industries. This School Board, this com­
munity and the person who headed this school system had 
no way to know when mechanized farming practices,—of 
course, the machine picking, the poison application, all of 
these things—the national cotton program and the like 
would just more or less make it entirely impossible for 
large segments of this population to continue, and, of

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621

course, I  can’t say to this Court today how long this popu­
lation can remain intact or what the future can be. I  sim­
ply do not know. There are too many variables, too many 
things here over which this community does not have con­
trol.

- 4 7 2 -
Now, coming back to your question, I  may have to be 

reminded there of it just for a second.
What was it?
Q. The matter of salaries. A. Yes.
Now, I  have said that these disparities, differences, here 

cannot be totally blamed against prior administration. In 
other words, I  play no hero role here whatsoever. This is 
just a simple task, attempting to do the job that had to be 
done with some degree of faith and persistence.

Now, salaries, of course, had a wide disparity. We saw 
immediately, in order to close that gap, it would take us 
anywhere from five to 10 years. We have worked at it 
rather continuously since my second year here. Of course, 
with the adoption of the new ’65-’66 schedule, the basic 
salaries are completely unified. There’s only one schedule; 
no longer a minimum and a maximum.

Q. And it applies to every school teacher in the system! 
A. I have signed contracts with virtually the entire staff 
for next year. We have a few vacancies, possibly a dozen 
or something like that, 10 or 12, out of a total system of,

—4 7 3 -
say, 220 teachers.

Now, every contract which I  have countersigned for the 
Board, acting in behalf of the Board, has been in compliance 
with this schedule.

If  there were a key person or a coach, one who had addi­
tional duties, worked longer than nine months, of course,

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622

his salary went on np according to his added responsibili­
ties and duties.

That salary schedule is in effect, in effect completely 
now. It’s already an accomplished fact.

Q. How about the differences, if any, in the curriculums 
that have been referred to? A. I  would suppose an edu­
cator—I was slightly disappointed that some of our experts 
yesterday and this morning did not mention perhaps the 
most single important fact in all—well, the field of educa­
tional administration, instruction. That’s a matter of indi­
vidual differences, these variations from pupil to pupil.

There are some common needs to all pupils at given ages, 
but as pupils mature their needs begin to differentiate. 
They simply boom out in this direction and that and the 
other. Consequently, we have to vary in our curricula offer­
ings in order to meet these special and peculiar and par-

— 474—

ticular needs of the pupils.
If  you go to any comprehensive high schools, I suppose, 

throughout the nation, you will find a vast offering of sub­
jects.

Now, in given years a pupil may not elect to take this 
course. In fact, frequently courses are just not elected at 
all; no pupils at all.

But we have a broad range of curricula offerings here in 
both senior high schools, one of the broadest, I suppose, 
anywhere in the state or perhaps this region for schools the 
size of these.

Now, if a given subject is not offered in a given school 
in a given year, picking out a certain year, that does not 
mean that the counselor and the principal of that school

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623

have not acquainted pupils with just the whole gamut, the 
whole range, of subject patterns, selections.

We, of course, don’t attempt to compel students at the 
upper grades to take certain subjects. Our counselors, 
principals, of course, head teachers, work with the students, 
guide them, give them information and the like in a pro­
fessional way.

I  would have to say, therefore, that so far as curricula 
offerings are concerned there are no substantial or material

— 475-

differences.
I  have never known a student since I  have been in this 

community to want a given subject who could not, of course, 
have access to it.

That’s the purpose of administration, the purpose of 
counseling, to determine what the needs of the pupil are, 
and then, of course, we work that into the curriculum im­
mediately.

We have here not a fixed and inflexible curricula whatso­
ever. It changes year by year. Subjects are added; others 
are deleted and the like. It’s a dynamic, constantly chang­
ing thing, and, of course, the differences between what one 
school and what another does are insignificant, of course, 
without consequence.

Q. Will that continue into the future— A. Oh, yes.
Q. —so far as the— A. That’s the policy of the School 

Board. Surely.
Q. All right, sir.
Tell us something about the qualification of the teachers 

in the several schools of the system. A. Well, for several 
years since we have had schools on an accredited basis in 
Mississippi certification standards have been held, I  would

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—476—
say, rather highly. In fact, teachers coming into this state 
from California, elsewhere, frequently cannot qualify for a 
certificate. So, we would be in the upper 10 or 12 so far as 
certification requirements are concerned. Of course, that’s 
a fact that is oftentimes of complete amazement to teachers 
coming into the state.

In the position which I held previous to coming here, on 
the Mississippi coast, with a very large center at Keesler 
Field, we frequently had people coming in there from Cali­
fornia and elsewhere, and, of course, we hunted for the top 
ones for our school system, and frequently a person with 
three and four years of experience could not qualify in our 
system since we had the regular state regulation for certi­
fication.

Now, in this school system no beginning teacher may be 
employed unless that teacher has a Bachelor’s Degree from 
a college, plus a certificate from the State Department of 
Education.

Now, we do not have regulation concerning age. The 
certification regulation makes this stipulation regarding 
age, and so far as I know this is the only one: It says sim­
ply no teacher less than or no person below the age of 18

- 4 7 7 -
may be given a certificate unless that person is a graduate 
of a four-year approved college.

Now, of course, that never affects us. Usually the begin­
ning teachers are in their early 20s, 21, 22, 23, along there, 
but we have had for several years identical requirements 
throughout this school system, for our teachers so far as 
certification, their qualifications and the like are con­
cerned.



625

Now, we have several teachers in some of the schools, in 
the northwestern area of Clarksdale, who did not have 
Bachelor’s Degrees some years ago when these rules and 
policies, of course, came into being at the state level. Those 
teachers, I  suppose you would say, are under a grand­
mother clause or grandfather clause, or something of the 
sort, and by periodically attending college for a certain 
number of semester hours can continue to maintain their 
certificates.

We have some four or five teachers in that category. It 
so happens all of these teachers are white. We have no 
teachers of the Negro race with less than an A certificate. 
Of course, we have a sprinkling of AA certificates, a Mas­
ter’s Degree or equivalent, throughout the system.

— 478—

Q. Something has been said about overcrowding in cer­
tain school systems or certain schools in the system.

Will you address yourself to that matter, sir! A. Well, 
we have one or more empty classrooms in every school, 
every elementary school, south of the tracks, railroad 
tracks, which run from Lyon to Bobo, -with the exception 
of Riverton. We did have one spare classroom there, but, 
oh, sometime in January, I  think it was, that teacher or a 
teacher was necessary to come in there because of tempo­
rary crowding.

Now, we have one spare classroom at Booker T. Washing­
ton. We have one at George Oliver. We have what we call 
two permanent ones plus four semipermanent at Myrtle 
Hall. We have one at Eliza Clark.

Now, we have blueprints in preparation now for this six- 
classroom addition at Riverton, which was planned, of

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626

course, from the beginning, which, of course, will enable 
that addition to be ready this fall.

Now, if you go to the southeast part of the zone or the 
district, you will find, of course, there, to take Myrtle Hall, 
we have 502 pupils at Myrtle Hall. Now, that’s net enroll­
ment at present. Now, we have 20 classrooms there. At the 
same time, of that 502 pupils, we have 62 pupils who come

—479—-
under this blanket prohibition here of the Legislature and 
the State Auditor’s Office. If we, of course, have to, of 
course, eliminate these 62 pupils, that will leave only 440 
pupils in that center. I f  you divide that 440 by even 30— 
oh, you get less than what? Fifteen classrooms needed or a 
maximum of 15 there. Consequently, we have this situation 
right before us, this legislation here, which must be imple­
mented, which was passed during this fiscal year, sometime 
in July of ’64.

We, of course, must be cognizant, especially in southeast 
Clarksdale, concerning any construction. We know there 
are pupils in southwest Clarksdale who will occupy the 
classrooms we are setting up there. We know the growth 
is there and the potential. We have studied the population. 
Our census figures and the like convince us of that. In fact, 
we can’t afford to build classrooms anywhere unless we 
justify it to the State Educational Finance Commission and 
to the State Department of Education that these are needed.

I would have to say just categorically we have no crowd­
ing in this school system. We have no threat of double 
sessions or anything of the sort. We’re meeting, of course, 
A A standards on teacher-pupil ratio completely. We have 
these step-by-step plans there, which will, of course, eom-

—480—
pletely eliminate the small disparity which we have between

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627

some of the schools or among some of the schools in the 
teacher-pupil ratio.

I would say we have a very comfortable situation here 
compared to more or less the standard of the norm over the 
nation.

This school district has attacked its problems of construc­
tion periodically; in fact, more or less in a continual fash­
ion. As a consequence, we have no serious threat of over­
crowding, and, of course, we have some factors and some 
conditions which are right before us indicated here which 
the School Board must pay careful attention to lest it over­
build in some areas of the City.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, you spoke about accrediting agencies and what-not.
Will you tell the Court about the standards of our schools, 

that is, with respect to their accreditation, both with the 
Mississippi State Accrediting Association and the regional 
accrediting association? A. Mississippi has a voluntary 
accrediting commission.

I  think perhaps only one or two other states in the union 
have accreditation on a local or voluntary basis—possibly

—481—
Georgia or Florida; just one or two others.

Now, this function is carried out through the educational 
association of the state. This is an old, old arrangement. 
It came on well before World War I, and now through the 
years it has served completely, even though this state has 
been quite saturated at times by politics—this voluntary 
professional arrangement of accreditation at the state level 
has served to completely keep politics out of the schools of 
Mississippi.

Perhaps that one statement indicates why this state, with 
its low ability to invest money in its schools and in its chil­

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628

dren, has still been able to turn out the Faulkners and the 
Youngs and the others. In fact, it’s doubtful that any state 
in the union gets a return from its money that this state 
does in education.

Now, under the Accrediting Commission of Mississippi, 
the four schools in this system which are primarily at­
tended by white pupils have a Class A rating. They can’t 
quite measure up in two or three, I  would say, not too sig­
nificant particulars, but still they are in the manual and 
we can’t measure up to them. Consequently, we have had 
to be satisfied with a Class A rating for some years.

—482—
I do not know whether these schools have ever been Class 

AA. They have not during my tenure here these five years.
Now, we have four schools at the present time primarily 

attended by Negro pupils at the elementary level. Three of 
these schools have been in operation for several years, one 
but not about—I think this is the third or fourth year for 
George Oliver. All three of the older schools are Class AA 
and, of course, were Class AA last year. Riverton has made 
full application for Class AA rating.

The rating will be announced sometime, I would say, the 
middle of this month or the latter part. They usually come 
out about April 20th. We have every espectation that we 
have met fully and completely all accrediting requirements 
and that Riverton will be so classified at the AA level.

Now, all three secondary schools—-junior high, senior 
high and one junior-senior high—have classification at the 
AA level in the State Accrediting Commission, and they 
are also full-fledged members of the Southern Association 
of Colleges and Schools, and possibly we should add here, 
simply for the record, that when—oh, about two or three

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- 4 8 3 -
years ago—two years—it was two years ago—in fact, last 
December, one year before—that would be December of ’63 
—when the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools 
had its annual meeting in Memphis, at that meeting permis­
sion was given for the first time for schools made up pri­
marily of the Negro population to come in as full-fledged 
members of the Southern Association.

Now, a number of the states in the South, a number of 
these so-called progressive states, held back. They did not 
stand up before that body and move to have their schools 
who had been on an approved list to come in as full-fledged 
members. It was my pleasant duty as Chairman of the 
Mississippi Committee of the Commission on Secondary 
Schools for the Southern Association to stand before that 
body and to move that our schools come in,—-that’s all the 
schools in Mississippi, some 12 or 14 at that time, primarily 
attended by Negro pupils—to come in as full-fledged mem­
bers. That action carried unanimously.

Now, we, therefore, have every school in this system, 
secondary and elementary, and chiefly populated by Negro 
pupils at the highest rating which it can achieve.

And now one word about elementary schools of the South­
ern Association: The Southern Association about three

- 4 8 4 -
years ago opened up full memberships at the elementary 
level for the first time, and now two or three schools in 
Mississippi—I think one at Port Gibson and one or two 
others—have come in. We have targeted the year of ’66 for 
all of ours to come in. I  know for a fact Oliver, Booker T. 
Washington, Myrtle Hall and Eiverton will be able to meet 
these standards. I  cannot say at this time, but I certainly



630

hope—and if I expect to remain in this community I better 
make certain of the fact—that the schools Kirkpatrick and 
Heidelberg and Oakhurst and Eliza Clark, if it’s, of course, 
still in session at the time, will come in likewise.

But we are simply meeting standards just as rapidly, of 
course, as standards are set before us, constantly upgrad­
ing the schools.

Q. Well, in that connection, sir, something has been said 
about special teachers, teachers not assigned to classroom 
work.

Are additional teachers, additional special teachers, be­
ing employed for the coming school year, ’65-’6 6 f A. I  
think—

What was the figure ?
— 485—

Five perhaps. Either five or six—
Q. Five. A. —special teachers.
Q. Five was the figure. A. Now, some of these teachers 

are working in special education classes, one in the area of 
speech, speech therapy, possibly one or two in music and 
the like.

We have given our principals instructions already to 
employ this year three teachers, what we call special teach­
ers, in the schools generally in the south Clarksdale area. 
Of course, the second step will be taken one year hence in 
order to completely take care of that situation and the edu­
cational needs of children.

Q. Now, Mr. Tynes, that concludes everything I would 
like to ask you about except to ask you if you have any­
thing to say with reference to the zones, and in that par­
ticular I would like to ask you to tell the Court so that it 
can be in the record if there are any children in this area

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631

that forms a part of Zone E-l-B which is bounded on the 
north by U. S. Highway 61, on the west by the railroad line 
and on the east by U. S. Highway Number 49.

The reason I ’m asking you that is that it seemed to have 
been suggested that those children in there might move over

—486—
to the Booker T. Washington.

Are there any children in that areal A. At the extreme 
northern limit I  think there are two Chinese children who 
attend a private school. There could possibly be one other 
family, the color of which I don’t know, living in that entire 
area, which, of course, makes up geographically, oh, pos­
sibly 40 per cent of the Myrtle Hall zone.

That area there is completely industrialized and commer­
cialized. In fact, when we drew that zone, I  didn’t think 
that there was a child in there. The principal had so re­
ported to me.

Q. This area south of Wissler and east of Highway 49 
—that’s in the same condition that you referred to? A. 
Bight.

I think one witness perhaps mentioned a horizontal or 
east-west zoning. Of course, if you’d zone there and attempt 
to get some children in Booker T., you’d miss completely. 
You wouldn’t have a child in that entire area. All of that 
is commercial and industrial. That’s not residential.

Q. If  you made a horizontal drawing of a line through 
Biverton, what would happen to the children that are south

—487—
of that line? Where would they go to school? A. They 
perhaps would have to go—where? To Booker T., wouldn’t 
they?

Q. Would that be much further— A. Oh, yes.

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632

Q. —than the Riverton? A. Three times,
Q. Well, do yon have anything to say to the Court with 

respect to the lines, sir? A. There has been some question 
raised from time to time concerning, I suppose you would 
say, the efficacy of geographic zoning or, as we have fre­
quently called it here, neighborhood schools.

This, of course, type of zoning or type of school assign­
ment is the prevalent means of assigning pupils throughout 
this nation. We tried perhaps last August to make that 
fairly clear to the Court.

In this publication which I  hold in my hand here called 
“Guidelines for Southern School Desegregation”, which 
comes out from Dr. G. W. Foster, Jr., Professor of Law and 
Consultant to the U. S. Office of Education, University of 
Wisconsin—even though this is set up and called “Guide­
lines for the Desegregation of Schools in the South”, still

—4 8 8 -
Professor Foster, in all honesty, has to say that he cannot 
commit the federal government or the U. S. Office of Edu­
cation, but that he knows what the policies are being worked 
up, and in general these are the policies, but they are not 
what you would call 100 per cent official. In fact, there are 
still none.

Now, Dr. Foster says there are chiefly two types of com­
pliance with the courts’ desegregation orders, and he says 
this on Page 3 under Topic A, “Assignment by Geographic 
Zoning”. He says:

“First, throughout the country geographic zoning 
is the prevalent means for assignment of pupils to 
schools.”

And now he goes ahead and points out that in -the dual 
system in the South there was zoning before the desegrega­

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633

tion orders were implemented, but, of course, they were on 
the racial patterns, and now he states in order to comply 
with this type of an arrangement through geographic zon­
ing with the courts’ decrees there must, of course, be a uni­
tary assignment of pupils, and he says that the chief test 
of whether or not that compliance is being made with that 
unitary geographical arrangement is simply this: He says, 
puts it in the form of an example:

—489—
“All elementary schools of the district, whether 

formerly Negro or white, would have to be zoned on 
a single map without any overlapping of attendance 
zones,”

I  submit to this Court that the zoning map which this 
School Board has given to this Court in compliance with 
a temporary order for desegregation has no overlapping 
whatsoever. There is not one square foot in the Clarksdale 
Municipal Separate School District which contains two ele­
mentary school attendance zones. I  would have to say, 
therefore, that is meeting the basic criterion that Dr. Foster 
has enounciated.

I  have heard Dr. David Seligman; I  have heard Dr. Sulli­
van and numerous ones from the U. S. Office of Education. 
I  have heard them speak, I  expect, four or five times in the 
past four or five months, even including the recently held 
University of Tennessee Point Institute at the Hotel Pea­
body, which was 10 days ago, at which these men were there. 
They constantly enounciate these guidelines, even though 
they say they have not had the final word of Commissioner 
Keppel’s stamp of approval upon them. Yet they are all 
we have to guide us at the present moment, and I  submit to

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634

this Court that we’re completely in compliance with the
- 4 9 0 -

guidelines which have been enounciated thus far by the 
U. S. Office of Education.

Q. Are the lines, the zone lines and the district lines and 
the subdistrict lines, in your opinion, reasonable and ra­
tional lines! A. I  would have to make this statement to 
this Court: If this School Board had come with any other 
zones than these, the Court could have viewed them as be­
ing suspect, possibly invidious.

We have large lumps of integrated housing—southeast 
Clarksdale; southwest Clarksdale; there’s a little bit in 
north Clarksdale in Zone E-4-A; the Riverton zone.

There are several Negro pupils who live there, inciden­
tally, and I  suppose will be in school next year or the fol­
lowing year.

Q. That’s E-3-A! A. No. E4-A.
Q. Yes. E-4-A. A. There are at least several school-age 

children in there now. Of course, their grades haven’t been 
reached thus far. First and second have not caught them.

But if we had come with any sort of gerrymander at­
tempt, simply to exclude pupils or include pupils, or anv-

—491—
thing else, I  would have to say this Court could have 
doubted the good faith of this Board of Trustees and the 
Superintendent who are defendants in this ease.

Viewing this entire school district as a whole and with all 
the information which we could amass on it, combined with 
the counsel of our principals of the various schools affected, 
we came up with this plan in good faith and we submitted 
it to this Court in the belief that we were complying fully 
not only with the Court’s order, but with the civil rights 
statute as passed in July 2nd, 1964.

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635

Again I say everyhing seemed to happen in July.
But we believe that this is the sort of evidence or integ­

rity and of attempting to measure up to a most difficult and 
awkward situation. There’s no question about it.

One of the chief complainants in this case has testified 
concerning the over-all difficulty of getting desegregation, 
of course, accepted here in the South, and perhaps this is 
the first school district, that is, to my knowledge, with a 
ratio of perhaps 60 per cent Negro, 40 per cent white and 
perhaps yellow, to grapple with a problem like this, and it’s 
amazing to me that a school board and a school community 
would have the courage, instead of attempting to come here

—492—
through plans of compliance based on freedom of choice and 
this ruse and that and the other.

Dr. Foster says here very bluntly that any of these other 
plans, other than geographic zoning, must be viewed by the 
U. S. Office of Education as transitional in nature, as not 
full compliance, but more or less temporizing and compro­
mising with the issue and, of course, playing for time.

Now, the defendants in this case came all out with a 
plan here, as they stated to the Court last August 19th, they 
hoped would get them out of litigation, get them out of the 
courtroom, in order that we could spend our professional 
effort and that the School Board, itself, could spend the 
time which it has to do in deliberation and adjudication of 
the various matters brought before it in looking after the 
twin responsibilities which the laws of Mississippi spell 
out for every school board and every school superintendent 
in this state, that of looking out for the educational welfare 
of children and of being concerned with and about the eco­
nomic welfare of the supporting school district.

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636

I  say to this Court the defendants in this ease are en­
deavoring, with all of the knowledge and all of the courage 
they can amass within the resources of this school district,

—493—
to do the thing which has to be done, not only under the 
U. S. Supreme Court decision in the Brown case and all 
the following cases and in the light of the Court’s decree 
in this case, but in view of the larger legislative mandates 
which were set forth in the Civil Bights Act of ’64.

Q. Did the defendants bring forward in their plan any 
transfer provisions which might be manipulative with racial 
considerations in mind? A. There is not the first possi­
bility of any transfer from zone to zone in this situation.

I noticed that some of the witnesses for the plaintiffs 
yesterday afternoon or this morning possibly—I think it 
was this morning—seemed to be not absolutely certain 
concerning that thing. Apparently they had in mind free­
dom of choice or something else.

This thing is completely rigid. We’ve had to tell parent 
after parent that: “You must attend this school or none 
other in the school system.”

Naturally, these parents haven’t been happy with the 
Superintendent and with the Board of Trustees, as you 
could well imagine. They’ve had to adjust, to accommodate 
to this sort of thing.

—494—
I think this Court had, of course, completely in mind this 

fact: That south of the railroad there were 464 white pupils 
in a completely integrated housing situation, and, of course, 
those pupils are simply scattered throughout that area.

Now, of course, there were nearly 80 north of the rail­
road, some of which, of course, still remain.

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637

Q. Now, just one other thing, Mr. Tynes: Did you and 
I  request the City Engineer to provide a map which shows 
in green color the residences built in Clarksdale during the 
past 15 months? A. We did so; yes.

Q. Was that done so as to show the Court the future 
development of Clarksdale or the way the City of Clarks­
dale is developing? A. It was.

Q. Do we have to take those things into consideration in 
planning our needs as school needs? A. Some of the ex­
pert witnesses brought in by the plaintiffs in this case, of 
course, have set forth the fact that every school district 
must study population trends and projections and the like. 
Of course, that’s part of the work which is represented right 
there.

—4 9 5 -
May I  say one other word in connection with that: I 

suppose that the first undertaking I  engaged in after com­
ing to this school system in July of 1960 was simply to 
spell out the period 1950 to 1960, simply showing what we 
call the average number belonging or roughly equivalent to 
tfye average or the net membership and the ADA by school 
for every school in this school system—of course, part of 
the over-all look—to see how the trend was setting up as 
regard population, when and how rapid and the like.

Of course, we study these population figures. We make 
our projections in the light of them. Constantly—in fact, 
continuously—these problems must be before us. Other­
wise a school system will come up quite similar to the one 
that I  worked in before coming to this school system here. 
When I went to that system, it had 175 classrooms. I  made 
a study there and it needed 176 more, and we immediately 
had to engage in a five-million-dollar building program to

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638

get the 176 more in a two-year period. We had to double 
the number of classrooms there plus one. A school district 
can wander into a situation like that if it doesn’t constantly 
stay informed.

Mr. Luckett: This map I referred to has on it 
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 8 for purposes of identification, 
and it has the figure 178, showing the number of resi-

—496—
dences that have come into being in Clarksdale in 
the last 15 months.

If  you have nothing further to add, that’s the end 
of my interrogation, if your Honor please.

The Court: Mr. Tynes, one thing that I  would like 
to ask you about: One of the witnesses testified that 
there was a difference in the curriculum for Higgins 
High School and the other high school.

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: Latin, for example, is not being taught 

at Higgins, according to that witness.
Is this correct?
The Witness: That is correct.
The Court: Did you—-
The Witness: It ’s offered from time to time, but 

the students just want no part of it.
The Court: Let me ask you one other question.
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: Did you have any requests for this 

course at that school?
The Witness: None.
The Court: I  believe the witness testified also that 

there was a shop course offered in one high school, 
but not at Higgins.

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639

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: Do you have a shop facility at Hig­

gins?
The Witness: We have what’s called—actually, 

three shops there. To answer your question directly, 
three shops there. One is a composite shop, what we 
call a unit shop, in which a whole number of unit 
skills are offered. One shop is a masonry shop. The 
third shop is a carpenter, wood-working shop. Actu­
ally, virtually the same skills, training, are offered 
in one, in the Higgins shop, as in the other.

These things vary somewhat by title. They may 
be a little more intensive in one than in the other, 
but in general these shop programs are geared to 
meet the needs and the demands and the wants of 
the boys and girls-—of course, here chiefly boys—in 
the shop program who attend that school.

Again we have flexibility. Actually, of course, at 
Higgins we have what we call straight-out vocational 
shop programs in masonry and in wood working, 
what we call Type B, which we do not have in Clarks- 
dale High School or Clarksdale-Coahoma at the 
moment.

—498—
The Court: And also a course in drafting.
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: I  believe he mentioned that was avail­

able in one high school and not in Higgins.
The Witness: Actually, there’s unit work at Hig­

gins.
Now, of course, at Higgins any time there is a need 

for a drafting course they can get it, of course, at

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— 497—



640

the drop of a hat. They have some preliminary draft­
ing. Of course, that’s a prerequisite in some of their 
shop activities; in fact, virtually all in the composite 
shop program. They do blueprint work, minor draft­
ing, of course, in a number of those courses. It’s not 
a full year of straight-out drafting. It ’s just simply 
short periods of three weeks, six weeks, like that.

The Court: Has this school district since you came 
here or from the knowledge you acquired about its 
operations before you came—perhaps I  should have 
asked Dr. Wilkins this question—ever used eminent 
domain to acquire property for school purposes?

The Witness: We’ve had to go into court twice 
since I ’ve been here under eminent-domain proceed­
ings acquiring sites.

— 499—

The Court: Let me see if I understand the state 
support that you get for your public schools in Missis­
sippi. I think I have it in mind, but I  want to be sure.

You actually have two different types of funds; 
you get assistance in capital funds and you get as­
sistance for operating funds?

The Witness: Right. That’s correct.
The Court: The capital funds come from the State 

Education Finance Committee?
The Witness: That’s correct; yes, sir.
The Court: Your operating funds are based on 

your pupil census?
The Witness: No. The small per capita fund, that 

old constitutional provision, still comes from the 
census, but that’s just a minor school part, just a 
fragment.

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641

Now, virtually all state operating funds come 
strictly on a basis of average daily attendance. You 
simply are given so many teacher units; in other 
words, one for each 30, 30 pupils, average daily at­
tendance or major fraction thereof.

Now, as to how much money that will be, this one 
to 30 is tied into the certification and experience of 
the teacher employed, of course, for that unit, that 
teacher unit.

— 500—

The Court: The reason I  was asking that: I 
wanted to try to get clear in my mind the purpose 
of this last directive that you mentioned from the 
state with respect to state money for pupils going to 
the Clarksdale school system—

The Witness: Eight.
The Court: —who live actually outside of the 

Clarksdale school system.
The Witness: Eight.
The Court: Is that designed to require the district 

of the residence of the child to pay the local part of 
his education?

The Witness: The district is doing that already, 
but under this—

The Court: They are not getting the benefit of it?
The Witness: Pardon me.
The Court: What I ’m talking about—
The Witness: I  think I  understand.
The Court: Let’s take a pupil now attending the 

Clarksdale school system, not paying tuition, whose 
parents’ permanent residence is outside of the dis­
trict. Is this directive designed to require that the

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642

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- 501-

district where he should he going will bear the local 
expense of his education rather than the Clarksdale 
district?

The Witness: That’s correct.
If he stays here, then the Clarksdale district must 

underwrite not only the district’s share of the cost 
of his education, but the state’s share also.

The Court: I  see.
The Witness: In fact, it’s simply a belief on the 

part of the state, to which I  would have to subscribe, 
that any pupil who is not a bona tide resident of a 
school district, if he’s supported by the district or 
by the state, and, of course, jointly or by either— 
that that’s somewhat of an extralegal situation.

We have known from the mores of a large segment 
of the population of this state down through the 
years—this is common knowledge—that this thing 
has been prevailing. We have grappled with this 
for years and years and years. Of course, we have 
dozens of children who don’t know their parents. 
They’ve never known their parents or anything else. 
They have no identification with them.

The Court: Well, this directive actually would not 
change the state’s responsibility for a state-resident

- 502-

pupil?
The Witness: That’s correct. That’s correct.
The Court: It would shift the local responsibility 

when this is carried out from the Clarksdale district, 
in this case—

The Witness : That’s right.



643

The Court: —to another district—
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: —in the state?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: Do you have any estimate as to the 

loss of pupils by reason of attendance at private 
schools ?

I ’m concerned only—
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: —since the order was entered—
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: —in this case.
The Witness: We’ve had two new schools come 

into being this year. I  think one has approximately 
26 or 28 pupils. The other possibly has 26 or 27 or 28.

Now, one of these schools is adding a grade. It has 
two grades at present and kindergarten. The figure 
I  gave was for Grades 1 and 2. Now, next year that 
school will add a third grade.

— 503-

In addition to these two new schools, there were 
three schools already in operation, one a parochial—

The Court: They are long-time schools that have 
been in operation for a good while!

The Witness: Well, one has come into being since 
I ’ve been in Clarksdale, the past five years; the other 
two well before that time, apparently.

Now, the attendance at at least one of these schools 
has jumped greatly in the last 12 months—in fact, 
this school year and the year before, these two years.

I expect the public schools lost at least a hundred 
pupils to private schools this year and the year pre­
ceding.

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644

The Court: I ’m concerned really with the loss of 
pupils since this case began—

The Witness: Yes.
The Court: —by reason of the development of 

private schools.
The Witness: I  expect the figure would approxi­

mate a hundred. Of course, you can’t say—I can’t 
say—let me make it that way—I can’t say what 
prompted some pupils to attend some of the private 
schools, but I  know what prompted some. At least

—504—
I think I  do. Of course, I ’m not as omniscient as one 
of the witnesses this morning concerning motives, but 
some came to our schools, enrolled, and, of course, 
had to go to a different school. They refused. It 
would appear, of course, their motive for so going 
to a private school was somewhat clearly established 
by that act.

The Court: Was the Washington School, the
present Washington School, built after you came 
here?

The Witness: No. It was occupied when I came 
here in 1960. It had been occupied in the ’59 and ’60 
school year. I  think possibly about March of ’60.

The Court: When was the Higgins School built?
The Witness: Nineteen fifty-two, I believe.
Of course, we have added considerably to it since 

I ’ve been here.
The Court: I  believe that’s all I  have.
Mr. Bell, do you have anything further?
Mr. Bell: Just a few questions, your Honor.

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645

Redirect Examination by Mr. B e ll :

Q. Would you indicate, Mr. Tynes, what are the few little 
points that the white schools, the white elementary schools,

—505—
lacked that prohibited them from having the same AA rat­
ing that has been given by the state agency to the Negro 
schools? A. Would I  indicate, you say?

Q. Yes.
You said— A. List them?
Q. —there were a few small things. A. I  perhaps don’t 

have the whole list in mind, but one simply a free period 
for each teacher each day,—I think at least 20 minutes, 
possibly 30 minutes—one standard right there.

Q. Could you indicate what’s the reason that hasn’t 
been—in view of the teacher-pupil ratio data that we have 
had here, why it is that the white teachers in those schools 
can’t have this 30-minute free period? A. They simply 
say they can’t. The principals say there is just no way to 
work it in the schedule.

Q. All right.
Is there anything else? A. I  think we have four or five 

teachers with Class B certificates. Of course, that’s a miti­
gating circumstance there.

—505-A—
Q. Would that fact alone be sufficient to prohibit the 

granting of an AA rating to the white schools? A. I  think 
it would eliminate two of the schools.

Q. I  see.
Is there anything else? A. I  think those are the chief 

two. Of course, there would be some more.
Q. You indicated or at least the interrogatory indicates 

that the Negro junior high schools have had a Class A

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646

rating, the Negro elementary schools, Washington, Hall 
and Oliver, have had a Class A rating, since 1963,— A. 
Class AA.

Q. —Class A A—and yon indicate that when you came 
the average number of pupils per class in the Negro schools 
was up to 50, 60 per class and it’s been brought down slowly, 
but surely, since then, so that it is correct to assume that 
at the time when these schools received the Class AA rating 
that the average number of pupils per class was approxi­
mately 40? A. Forty, upper limit, as a maximum.

Mr. Bell: All right.
No further questions, your Honor.
Mr. Luekett: Just one question to get it in the

- 5 0 6 -
record.

Recross Examination by Mr. Luekett:

Q. What does “rated capacity” mean, Mr. Tynes?
That got into the record. A. Well, as used here, of 

course, that expression simply, which was introduced in the 
interrogatory—we simply gave the square footage of each 
classroom in the system. It would depend upon the function 
of that classroom, whether it was science or whether it was 
homemaking or whether it was a general academic class­
room or a shop classroom and so forth, and we simply used 
a factor commonly accepted by professionals, number of 
square feet per pupil, and, of course, divided the factor 
into the number of square feet and came out with X  num­
ber of children as capacity, but in all cases we showed on 
the interrogatory that the maximum allowed any classroom 
by the Accrediting Commission’s regulation is 40. Conse­

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647

quently, if you came out here with 45 or 50—if you had, 
say, a thousand square feet in this classroom, you’d divide 
20 into it as your factor and get 50. Yet the Accrediting 
Commission says to you: “You’re going to be Class AA. 
You stop here at 40.” Consequently, we had to use the

- 5 0 7 -
figure 40. Of course, for shops it was quite different. Maybe 
we used a hundred feet there a person or per pupil. A 
2400-square-foot shop divided by 100 would be 24-pupil 
capacity.

Now, we showed two capacities beyond that. In our 
summary we showed what it would be at 35 and we showed 
what it would be at 30, the optimum figure.

I think that information is clear if a person, of course, 
would just read it carefully.

Mr. Luckett: Thank you, sir.
The Court: Anything further with this witness? 
Mr. Bell: Nothing further from the witness, vour 

Honor.
The Court: You may stand down.
The Witness : Thank you.
Mr. Bell: Plaintiffs have no further witnesses, 

your Honor, and a few loose ends of the case to tie 
up would be, I  guess, a request for permission to fol­
low the Court’s instructions as to having a copy made 
of the decree concerning that ordinance of last year.

The Court: That needs to be supplied for the 
record,—

Mr. Bell: Yes.
The Court: —I think, on the understanding we

—508—
had about that matter earlier.

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648

Mr. Bell: And I will take care of that.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Bell: And with that plaintiffs would rest.
The Court: Do you have anything to offer for the 

defendants, Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: I  think our case is in the record, your 

Honor.
The Court: All right.
What are your wishes about submission?
I  can give you this much information: I  have no 

idea at all of disposing of this thing summarily this 
afternoon. We are not under the strain nor in the 
rush that we were in August. I want to give it 
mature consideration. I  want counsel to give me 
their very best efforts.

What would you propose, Mr. Bell?
Mr. Bell: I ’ve prepared and would like to submit 

a brief today that summarizes the facts and material 
prior to the hearing and also summarizes the cases 
that I think are applicable, even including the mate­
rial that we’ve had during the present hearing.

I would submit this in lieu of an oral summary, 
as I think it is just as complete, has all of the cases,

— 509—

and as far as the summary of the facts—
The Court: Actually, I would prefer a brief, es­

pecially because of the time of day right now.
Mr. Bell: Then-—
The Court: Would you like an opportunity to brief 

it further on a transcript?
Mr. Bell: I think that that might be helpful also, 

as far as a more complete summary of the facts,

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649

although the testimony already shows that the Court 
perhaps is more familiar with the facts than at least 
one of plaintiffs’ counsel.

The Court Reporter indicates that it would per­
haps he a month before he could get a copy of the 
transcript, but at that time—

The Court: From the time that transcript was re­
ceived, how much time would you need !

Would you need very much time after that!
Mr. Bell: I  would think that the time factor, con­

sidering the opening of school and the possibility 
that one party or the other would like to appeal, 
and certainly the idea that both parties would like 
the matter settled before school opens, would mean 
that we would try to get it within perhaps a week, 
further brief within a week, after we receive the

—5 1 0 -
transcript.

The Court: Would 15 days be surely enough!
Mr. Bell: Yes, sir.
The Court: All right. Fifteen days from the time 

you receive the transcript—
Mr. Bell: Yes.
The Court: —furnish me a brief.
Mr. Bell: Yes.
The Court: Give it directly to me.
Mr. Bell: Yes.
The Court: It’s not properly a part of the jacket 

file, as you understand.
Mr. Bell: Yes, sir.
The Court: Fifteen days from the time plaintiffs’ 

brief is served on you will you respond with your 
brief, Mr. Luckett!

B e a r in g  o f  A p r il 9, 1965

Colloquy



650

Mr. Luckett: Yes, sir.
The Court: Anything further we need to deal with 

on this particular case at this time?
Mr. Bell: I  can’t think of anything further, your 

Honor.
Mr. Luckett: Not that I  know of, your Honor. 
The Court: All right. The hearing on this case,

—5 1 1 -
Henry against the Clarksdale School District, is 
adjourned.

(Thereupon, at 4 :30 p. m., the hearing in the above- 
entitled cause was adjourned.)

H ea rin g  o f  A p r il 9, 196S

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651

Hearing of November 15, 1965

Proceedings had and evidence taken in the ahove-entitled 
cause on the 15th day of November, 1965, at 9 a. m., in the 
United States District Court for the Northern District of 
Mississippi, Delta Division, at Clarksdale, Mississippi, be- 
for the Honorable Claude F. Clayton, United States Dis­
trict Judge.

A ppearances :

F or the Plaintiffs:

H enry M. A ronson, E squire,
5 3 8 %  N o rth  Farish S tr e e t ,
Jackson, Mississippi.

F or the Defendants:

S em m es Du ckett , E squire,
121 Yazoo Avenue,
Clarksdale, Mississippi.

— 10—

# *  #  #  #

Gycelle T yn es , a witness called by and in behalf of the 
defendants, having been first duly sworn, testified as fol­
lows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Luckett:

Q. Is this Mr. Gycelle Tynes! A. Yes.
Q. You have testified before in this case, have you not, 

Mr. Tynes! A. I  have.
Q. And what is your position with the Clarksdale Munici­

pal Separate School District, Mr. Tynes! A. Superinten­
dent of the Schools.



652

Q. Mr. Tynes, you know, of course, that in the order of 
August 10, 1965, in Paragraph 13 thereof, that it is pro­
vided :

— 11—

“That defendants shall be, and they hereby are, di­
rected to reconsider their proposals with respect to the 
proposed elementary attendance zones listed in Para­
graph 12, supra, and to resubmit to this Court a plan 
for attendance zoning for elementary school purposes 
of all of the school districts now included in the said 
proposed elementary attendance zones. The attendance 
zones to be devised by defendants in preparing the said 
plan shall be predicated on the efficient utilization of 
available school facilities on a racially nondiscrimina- 
tory basis in accordance with sound educational princi­
ples.”

Are you familiar with that paragraph of the order, sir! 
A. I  am.

Q. Did the defendants in the case, that is, the members of 
the Board of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate 
School District and yourself as its Superintendent, attempt 
in all good faith to comply with that paragraph? A. We 
did.

Q. Did the Board and you reconsider the proposal with 
respect to the elementary attendance zones that are listed

— 12-

in that particular paragraph? A. We have done so.
Q. Do you have before you a copy of the revised plan 

that was prepared in accordance with those directions? A. 
I have.

Q. Is that a copy of the plan that was later submitted to 
the Court? A. It is.

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653

Q. Mr. Tynes, when we speak about the elementary at­
tendance zones listed in Paragraph 12, we are really talk­
ing about the elementary zones in Zone E -l and E-2, are we 
not, or Subdistrict E -l and Subdistrict E-2! A. That is 
correct.

Q. Can you see that map, Mr. Tynes? A. Push it this 
way.

I  can see it.
Thank you.

The Court: Mr. Aronson, if you wish to come 
around here where you can—

Or do you have a map on which you can follow 
this?

Mr. Aronson: Yes, your Honor.
I  think this is the same map, is it not, Mr. Luekett?

—13—
Mr. Luekett: Yes. I t ’s bound to be the same map, 

I ’m sure.
Mr. Aronson: I  can follow it from here.
Thank you.
Mr. Luekett: Now, on this map, your Honor, the 

schools have been sort of dubbed in in red ink. I 
don’t think it appears on Mr. Aronson’s map.

You might want to take a look at that, if you don’t 
know the whereabouts of the schools.

By Mr. Luekett:
Q. Is this a copy of the map or one of the maps that are 

on file here in this case, Mr. Tynes? A. It is, with the 
single exception which you indicated. Some indication has 
been made to indicate where the schools are located, certain 
ones,—

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654

Q. In other words,— A. —simply for clarity.
Q. —this is an identical copy of the map, of the composite 

map, of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District 
showing all subdistricts, including the senior high school 
subdistricts, junior high school subdistricts and elementary 
school subdistricts, and also all of the attendance zones?

—14—
A. That’s correct.

Q. And you have, as you say, dubbed in the particular 
spots where the schools are located? A. That’s correct, 
especially elementary, with possibly one or two exceptions.

Q. All right, sir.
This particular— A. Riverton.
Q. —spot right there— A. Riverton Elementary School 

Center.
Q. That is the location of Riverton Elementary School 

Center ? A. Right.
Q. This spot right here—is that the location— A. 

That’s the Booker T. Washington Center.
Q. This spot right here? A. That’s the Eliza Clark 

Center.
Q. And this right here? A. Is Myrtle Hall Number—
Of course, the whole complex is Myrtle Hall. There are 

three buildings.
Q. And this right here? A. That’s the Higgins Junior- 

Senior High School.
—15—

Q. This right to the east of that? A. That building is 
George Oliver Elementary School Center.

Q. So, as I  understand it, these show all of the elementary 
schools that are in those two subdistricts that are dealt with 
in this revised plan? A. That’s correct.

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655

Q. There are five in number, are there not, Mr. Tynes? 
A. That is right.

Q. There are three in Subdistrict E -l and two in Sub­
district E-2? A. That’s so.

Q. Will you tell the Court something about the relative 
ages of these buildings?

For instance, the George Oliver Elementary School? A. 
It is about three years old.

Q. Is it a modern building? A. It ’s a modern 18-class­
room building.

Q. Now, you say there are three buildings here on the 
Myrtle Hall property? A. Eight.

One of them is a quite old building, Myrtle Hall Number
—16—

1, at the north section of the campus there where you have 
the pointer indicating.

Q. Yes, sir. A. That building perhaps is at least 40 
years of age. It was remodeled six years ago and is in quite 
good condition. It has 10 classrooms—Myrtle Hall 1.

At the south end of the campus, indicated there where you 
have the ruler pointing, is a modern six-classroom building, 
constructed about 10 years ago. It  has six classrooms.

There’s one other building on the campus, besides the 
cafeteria, four-classroom frame building, some 20 years of 
age, which is not being used for regular classroom pur­
poses. We have one special education class in that small 
group. I think perhaps one or two of the rooms are used 
for special purposes. Music groups meet there or something 
like that, but for our regular academic program is not in 
use.

Q. All right, sir.
We’ll point to the Eliza Clark, sir. A. That building is 

some 10 years of age. It has seven classrooms. Of course,

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it’s a brick building, except the cafeteria, a frame building. 
The building, of course, is quite new, but considerable de­
terioration in the foundation has occurred. In fact, the

—17—
building is in a continuing deteriorating condition. How 
long it will be serviceable without complete renovation, ex­
tensive work on the foundation, I can’t say. The School 
Board twice a year has its architects and engineers study 
it extensively and complete and make measurements to see 
how much deterioration is continuing. The deterioration 
seems to be accelerating rather than arresting. Conse­
quently, the building may not be serviceable for many years 
longer. In fact, last Christmas the engineers found condi­
tions in there which occurred which were endangering two 
classrooms. In fact, some of the girders overhead were 
about to turn off pilasters supporting them, a hidden con­
dition in behind the ceiling of the building and had not been 
observed previously. Fortunately, some bricks had fallen 
out and knocked the ceiling down. The engineers discovered 
the trouble during the holidays and extensive repairs, run­
ning into several thousand dollars, had to be made on an 
emergency basis.

Q. That was caused by the north wall moving— A. 
Simply gravitating northward.

There are a number of motions, horizontal motions, verti­
cal motions, of course, resultant motions, occurring from

—18—
the two particular types of stresses.

Apparently the foundation is simply washing out from 
under it by some subsoil condition, which—even though the 
building is on concrete pilings, still it’s not holding up at all.

Q. Actually, that’s the site of the original white school 
there in Clarksdale, isn’t it? A. That’s correct.

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657

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that this property was 
deeded to Clarksdale by way of gift? A. It was. Of 
course, it had the reverter type clause in it.

The same is true of some of the other buildings in the 
district.

Q. For use only by children of the white race? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Now, down here is the Booker T. Washington School? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. Will you tell the Court about that particular building? 
A. That’s a 16-classroom building, completed in 1960. It ’s 
an outstanding building, so far as architecture and func­
tional qualities, not only in the School District, but in the

—1 9 -
state at large and perhaps in the southern area. It is an 
outstandingly functional building. In fact, it’s a building 
of such character, such quality, for any particular portion 
of the city, I would be hard to recommend one of that 
quality. It looks to me sometimes as if it was actually over­
built. The classrooms are huge. Of course, 30 pupils in a 
classroom designed for 45 or 50 are almost lost, almost like 
having 20 or 30 people in this courtroom. It’s quite an ex­
cellent building.

Q. Now we’ll move over to the Riverton building. A. 
The Riverton School first had 12 classrooms erected in 1964. 
Six additional classrooms were added the summer of 1965. 
It now has 18 classrooms, and, of course, a brand-new, mod­
ern building.

Q. All right, Mr. Tynes.
Now, of course, this map shows the whole City of Clarks­

dale, does it not? A. That’s correct.
Q. And it will include some area that is commercial and 

some area that is industrial? A. Quite right.

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658

Q. As well as the residential areas! A. Yes.
— 20—

Q. And to that extent it may be misleading insofar as 
school areas are concerned, may it not! A. In fact, one of 
the zones yon might pick ont may appear to be abnormally 
large, abnormally long, with dimensions which seem to be 
somewhat peculiar for a school zone.

Q. Now, I  was going to come— A. The fact may re­
main, of course, considerable of that territory may be ter­
ritory in which not a single residence is to be found.

Q. We probably were derelict in not pointing out to the 
Court before, because I  think the Court is wondering, why 
the children in this area bounded on the north by U. S. 
Highway 61 and on the east by U. S. Highway 49 and on 
the west by the railroad track could not go to the Booker 
T. Washington School. As a matter of fact, what is in 
this area that’s bounded on the north by IT. S. Highway 
61, on the east by U. S. Highway 49 and on the west by the 
railroad track? A. That area is completely industrial and 
commercial in character. To my knowledge, not a single 
child resides in that whole area.

Q. And no students in that area? A. I  don’t know a
- 21-

single one.
Q. All right, sir.
Here’s a street here that goes in an easterly and westerly 

direction called Wissler Street, and there is some area south 
of that Wissler Street and east of the highway, H. S. High­
way 49. Is that area also commercial and with no children? 
A. It ’s completely commercial and industrial. To my knowl­
edge, not a single child resides in it.

Q. So, to the best of our knowledge, there are no children 
in that part of Clarksdale that would run from the inter­

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659

section of the railroad track and U. S. Highway 61, thence 
in an easterly direction to the intersection of U. S. Highway 
49, down south towards the intersection of U. S. Highway 
49 and Wissler Street and to the east from Wissler Street 
out towards, we’ll say, the boundary line of Zone E -l-B ! 
A. To my knowledge, there’s not a single child residing in 
that total territory.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, here’s a street called Louisiana Street that runs 

in a northerly and southerly direction, and a portion of it 
runs in a northerly direction from Fourth Street to the

— 22—

railroad track, that is, the railroad track that runs in an 
easterly and westerly direction. From that particular 
street, Louisiana Street, on out in an easterly direction 
towards the end of Clarksdale and between the railroad 
track and Fourth Street, are there any children in there, 
sir? A. There may be two or three. That’s primarily in­
dustrial and commercial. I f  any children are in there, I 
would say you could count them on the fingers of perhaps 
one hand.

Q. All right, sir.
So far as the dividing line that is between the Subdistrict 

E -l and Subdistrict E-2, the dividing line that makes the 
easterly boundary line of Subdistrict E-2 and the westerly 
line of Subdistrict E -l, there is a railroad track, is there 
not! A. That’s correct.

Q. That is a railroad track that’s constantly referred to 
in the plan as the railroad track that runs from Clarksdale 
to Mattson! A. That’s correct.

Q. Now, when we speak of a railroad track, sometimes 
we think of it as just a railroad track with two rails on it, 
do we not! A. True.

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—23—
Q. Actually, insofar as these railroad tracks within the 

City of Clarksdale, as they divide these two subdistricts, is 
there really more than just simply a right of way of the 
railroad company with one line of tracks down it! A. 
That’s a multitrack system in there. In fact, some areas of 
it have as many as six tracks parallel.
Numerous and extensive switching operations are carried 
out there. In fact, it is referred to as the Tallahatchie Yard 
in which trains are broken up, made up, in that entire area. 
It’s quite a busy area.

Q. Sometimes it’s necessary to kick the trains, that is, 
there will be boxcars turned loose and not even connected 
with a locomotive; is that not true! A. I  would say that’s 
a daily occurrence.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, is that one of the reasons that led the defendants 

in the case—and when I  refer to the defendants I ’m talking 
about the Board of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District and yourself as its Superintendent 
—to adopt that railroad line as one of the boundary lines,

—2 4 -
sir! A. That is one of the considerations, of course, haz­
ards, the safety of children.

Q. Would it be dangerous for elementary school children 
to cross over those railroad tracks daily? A. Evidently 
it would be.

Q. Was that one of the main, defects of the Clarksdale 
school system prior to the building of the Kiverton School? 
A. One which gave me and the Board of Trustees continued 
concern and anxiety.

Q. Is it a staging yard for the railroad tracks? A. It is.



661

Q. It was publicized in a TV show one time, was it not, 
sir? A. Yes.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, for that reason, because of the composition of those 

tracks, would you say, in reconsidering this plan for these 
two subdistricts, that is, Subdistricts E -l and E-2, that is 
the principal reason that led to the conclusion that that par­
ticular line should not be disturbed insofar as the dividing 
line between the two subdistricts? A. I  would have to 
say it’s a major consideration. Of course, there are other 
factors, but the factor of safety is certainly one of the over­
whelming issues. Of course, there are other factors, but

—25—
the factor of safety is certainly one of the overwhelming 
issues.

Q. Insofar as school population is concerned, what about 
the school population east of that line, that is, in Subdistrict 
E-2 as it’s now set up,— A. West of the line.

Q. —and that west of the line, in Subdistrict E-l, or vice 
versa so far as east and west is concerned? A. The rail­
road which extends north-south of Clarksdale, south to 
Mattson and Tutwiler, just about mathematically bisects the 
population of that entire area south of the easterly and 
westerly railroad track. Actually, there are perhaps a 
thousand elementary pupils east of the line and possibly 
940, 950 west of the line, almost exactly divided.

Q. Now, the Court speaks about the efficient utilization 
of available school facilities.

Are there just about the same so far as the pupil ratios 
per classroom east of the track and west of the track? A. 
That’s correct.

We have 34 classrooms west of the track, in the south­
west quadrant, which houses Booker T. Washington and

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662

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..-26—
Riverton. We have 18 classrooms at George Oliver and 16 
serviceable, first-class condition classrooms at Myrtle Hall, 
which makes 34, pins seven at Eliza Clark. Of course, we 
have slightly more pupils in the southeast quadrant.

Q. And those are the considerations, in addition to the 
safety factor, that led to the conclusion that we should main­
tain that railroad line as one of the boundary lines! A. 
That’s correct.

Of course, the School Board had several options. It had 
the highway, Highway H. S. 61, U. S. 49; it had a river, all 
of which are clearly defined boundaries, easily identifiable, 
but the highway would not serve because it does not divide 
the pupil population into manageable factors or divisions. 
For instance, the total population south of H. S. 61, includ­
ing both subdistricts, is less than 500 pupils out of a total 
of more than 1,900. Consequently, you’d have only about 
one fourth of your population—that’s the entire school dis­
trict—-south of U. S. 61. I f  you come to the Booker T. 
Washington zone, E-2-A, there’s something like 240 pupils 
south of H. S. 61, which, of course, would occupy only eight 
classrooms at Booker T. Washington. You couldn’t cross 
the railroad going east and pick up any children until you 
had gotten completely across Highway 49, way over within

- 2 7 -
two or three blocks of Myrtle Hall and the George Oliver 
Schools. Consequently, the only way to utilize efficiently 
the classroom capacity at Booker T. Washington was to 
pull in pupils north of U, S. 61 highway, as indicated there 
on the map before the Court.

Q. Well, let’s go now to Subdistrict E-l.
It is stated in the plan that the Board came to the con­

clusion that Zone E-l-A should remain as it is? A. That’s 
correct.



663

Gycelle Tynes—for  Defendants—Direct
H ea rin g  o f  N o v em b er  15, .1965

Q. Now, we’ve already pointed out to the Court that from 
Louisiana here, which is pretty close to the westerly bound­
ary line, that is, insofar as the residences north of Fourth 
Street are concerned, that there’s only one or two children 
in this particular area, that is, the area north of Fourth 
Street? A. That is correct.

Q. All right, sir.
Now, these children—can they he conveniently cared for 

in the George Oliver School? A. South of the highway, 
Highway U. S. 61, in that zone are perhaps more than 
something like a hundred and forty pupils. Consequently, 
with the 18-classroom facility, which needs to he filled to

—28—
be utilized to its capacity, it’s necessary, of course, to go 
north of the highway and bring in something like 300 chil­
dren.

The lines as indicated on the map, bordered on the west 
by Florida Avenue and on the east by the city limits, bring 
in a sufficient number of students to utilize rather to a max­
imum degree the facilities located at the Oliver School.

Q. Mr. Tynes, while the U. S. Highway 61 is a through 
highway, when it gets into the city limits of Clarksdale it 
becomes almost a street, does it not? A. It simply does.

Q. Does traffic slow down for that reason? A. Yes. 
Thirty-mile speed limits.

Q. Well, is there a crossing here that the children can 
cross with perfect safety? A. There’s Ritchie Avenue, 
the intersection of Ritchie and IT. S. 61, which is also called 
Tenth Street here in the city, the traffic light there, which, 
of course, is manned by a policeman during the time when 
children are crossing to and from school.

Q. That’s the Immaculate Conception, Negro Catholic 
school,— A. That’s correct.



664

Oycelle Tynes—for  Defendants—Direct
H ea rin g  o f  N ov em b er  15, 1965

—29—
Q. —right north of that ? A. Yes.
Q. In other words, these children in here, by crossing at 

this crossing where there is a stop light and a policeman, 
can cross with perfect safety? A. That’s true.

Q. Would it he closer for these children in the easterly 
section of Zone E -l to come to George Oliver rather than 
to Myrtle Hall or Eliza Clark? A. There’s not a block dif­
ference. Consequently, it does not operate. Of course, it’s 
perfectly obvious on the map.

Q. Now, we have stated in the revised plan what would 
be the pupil-teacher ratio by utilizing this particular zone. 
I  don’t remember exactly the figure, but we have set it up. 
A. That’s correct.

Q. Under this plan as we have developed it, these pupil- 
teacher ratios would be just about the same at all the 
schools, would they not? A. The School Board is setting 
them up 1-30 all over in all the elementary centers.

—30—
Q. You speak of one to 30 very often. Is that really the 

key to the accreditation of the school system? A. One-to- 
30 ratio meets any accrediting standard, to my knowledge, 
in the nation. That’s certainly true here, AA, with the 
State Accrediting Commission. It also meets the revised 
and projected standards for the Southern Association.

Q. As a matter of fact, it’s possible to have one-to-35 
average pupil-teacher ratio in a classroom and still be ac­
credited A in Mississippi? A. That’s true.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, I would like to enter 
an objection.

I think that some leading may be permissible, but 
I think it’s gotten a little bit out of hand and I would 
like to object to the leading questioning.



665

The Court: Don’t lead your witness any more than 
you have to, Mr. Luckett.

Mr. Luckett: All right, sir.
I ’m sorry.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Tynes, there has been spoken of on several occa­
sions something about the overcrowding of the schools in

—31—
the Clarksdale school system.

Will you tell the Court how Clarksdale rates in the 
schools of the State of Mississippi with reference to pupil- 
teacher ratio or pupils to the classroom ? A. I  would think 
this school system would certainly rank in the top five school 
systems anywhere in the state, teacher-pupil ratio.

Q. The School Board has said that in its opinion what 
was Zone E-l-B and E-l-C should be combined as one single 
zone? A. That’s correct.

Q. To be known hereafter as Zone E-l-B? A. That’s 
right.

Q. We have already pointed out to the Court, have we 
not, that there are no children in this area that’s south of 
U. S. Highway 61 and west of U. S. Highway 49, and also 
south of Wissler Street, have we not? A. Bight.

Q. All right, sir.
What is the distance between the Eliza Clark School and 

the Myrtle Hall complex? A. Hardly three blocks.
Q. Heretofore we have drawn a line between the two

—3 2 -
schools, have we not? A. That’s correct.

Q. Do you know whether that line followed the boundary 
lines of subdivisions? A. It followed lines of old, clearly 
established subdivisions; that’s correct.

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Q. It is also true that west of that line there are white 
people and east of the line that there are Negroes, with the 
few exceptions that there are some whites in there? A. 
That’s true.

Q. All right, sir.
To get away from the objections insofar as calling this 

a racial line, what would be necessary for us to do in that 
respect, Mr. Tynes? A. Because of the number of children 
in the total combined Zones E-l-B  and E -l-C ; of course, the 
diminishing population in E-l-C, the white zone; of course, 
in an effort to get out of court, in order that the defendants 
can stop spinning their wheels, losing administrative lead­
ership which the school system so badly needs, we’re pro­
posing to the Court that the line simply be abolished com­
pletely, the two zones be consolidated, and end that problem 
once and for all.

—33—
It’s the feeling of the defendants that any movement of 

that line perhaps would never be acceptable to the com­
plainants, the quantity and the number and the like there of 
the pupils brought in from Zone E-l-B perhaps would never 
completely satisfy them; but, disregarding the issue com­
pletely, the School Board for several years, since the popu­
lation began declining in Zone E-l-C, the Eliza Clark zone, 
has recognized eventually that would have to be completely 
abolished. So long as that zone was free to draw white 
pupils from the entire southeast quadrant of the city, it had 
an adequate number of pupils. Of course, the school center 
has been administratively expensive throughout its recent 
history. However, three years ago it did have some 240 
pupils. However, Desoto Street, which is really the north­
ward extension of U. S. 49 as it comes into the city south, 
the extension of that street several years ago on northward

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to Florence Avenue and then on northwestward to Friars 
Point Road, is producing a very rapid commercialization of 
the territory all along Desoto Street, which, of course, was 
the heart of the residential section of Zone E-l-C, the Eliza 
Clark zone. Consequently, with these factors of economy, 
efficiency, the need, of course, to get all possible from its 
administrative staff, its teaching staff, to utilize its build-

—34—
ings to the maximum degree possible, and, of course, to get 
out of court, the School Board simply believes it is wise and 
prudent, feasible, to abolish that line which separated those 
two zones. Then, of course, that would cease to be an issue.

Q. Is it proposed that all the first and second grade pu­
pils in the new zone, E-l-B, go to what is called the Eliza 
Clark School! A. That’s correct.

According to our figures, the entire two grades, first and 
second grades, would just about utilize seven classrooms at 
Eliza Clark.

Q. And then the third, fourth, fifth and sixth would go to 
what is now the Myrtle Hall School? A. Right.

Q. What is called the Myrtle Hall complex! A. That is 
correct.

Q. Would it be served by two sets of principals or— A. 
At present we have two principals and two secretaries serv­
ing those two schools; of course, one set at each school.

Under the consolidation, one principal and one secretary 
would be necessary, thereby effecting a savings of some

- 3 5 -
seven thousand dollars annually. In fact, more than that. 
Close to eight.

Q. All right, sir.
Well, suppose we go over here to Subdistrict E-2.
Now, after due consideration, was it decided that the

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best interest of all the children in that particular subdistrict 
would be served by leaving the lines as they were? A. 
That’s correct.

The School Board could find no reason—educationally, 
administratively, for the safety and the welfare of the pu­
pils or any other factor—for changing the present bounda­
ries of those two zones.

Now, the School Board requests, in its most recent an­
swer, through its counsel, that the School Board have the 
privilege from time to time, in order to utilize to the best 
possible or the maximum extent possible its educational 
facilities, to change slightly boundary lines within a sub­
district; in other words, the zones that make up the sub­
district. For instance, in Subdistrict E-2, southwest quad­
rant, it’s quite possible that the line presently at the north 
portion there of Zone E-2-A, along Fifth Street, will need 
to be moved one block south to Sixth Street and that that

—3 6 -
group move over to Riverton where we have several class­
rooms not in use at the present time.

The only reason in the world for making any such 
changes in zone boundary lines, of course, would be for the 
educational welfare of children, enabling the School Board 
to utilize its existing facilities to the maximum extent pos­
sible.

Q. Now, we were saying, Mr. Tynes, suppose the city 
built a bridge across Sixth Street. Would that add to the 
feasibility or make more feasible the utilization of Riverton 
School for those children who live in the northerly part of 
Zone E-2-A? A. It definitely would. Of course, it would 
place those children much closer to their attendance center 
than is the case at present where they have to go south to 
Booker T. Washington.

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Q. Should the area south of Booker T. Washington build 
up where there would be enough pupils in that area to at­
tend Booker T. Washington, that is, the area that’s south 
of Highway 61, would that enable the utilization of that 
building by those particular pupils without anybody cross­
ing the highway? A. It would.

—37—
Q. Now, there is a necessity at the present time for those 

children who are south of Fifth Street and north of U. S. 
Highway 61, which is called on this map State Street, to 
cross over Highway 61,— A. That’s true.

Q. —is there not? A. True.
Q. All right, sir.
Is there a stop light there where these children can and 

do pass over? A. There at the intersection, Sunflower—
Is it not Sunflower ?

—and U. S. 61, that is, of course, right at the east end of 
the bridge across Sunflower River, there is a traffic light. 
Of course, that’s the only crossing in that entire school zone 
crossing along IT. S. 61. Of course, a traffic light there is 
supervised by a policeman at all times when children are 
going to and from school.

Q. The children are shepherded across? A. Definitely 
so.

Q. Does the School Board consider that there is anything 
unusually dangerous about this crossing, any more than 
there is this crossing that’s utilized to get across to the

—38—
George Oliver School? A. To my knowledge, we have had 
no accident, pupil accident, at either crossing.

Q. Do we have any unusual hazards, that is, any in the 
opinion of the defendants, about those in Zone E-l-B south 
of the highway going across to Myrtle Hall? A. We have

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nearly a hundred pupils, 95, who live in that Zone E-l-B 
south of U. S. 61. There is a traffic light at Grant Street 
where it intersects U. S. 61. That crossing, of course, also 
is supervised by a policeman during all times when children 
are going to and from school.

Q. All right, sir.
Now we’ll get over here to Zone E-2-B. It includes some 

territory which is south of U. S. Highway 61, does it not? 
A. It does.

Q. Are there any children in that territory in Zone E-2-B 
that are south of U. S. 61? A. To my knowledge, there’s 
not a single child residing in that particular portion of that 
zone.

Q. So, there is no problem about any highway crossing? 
A. We have no problem there.

—39—
Q. All right, sir.
Is there any problem connected at the Riverton School 

that you know of at all about the utilization by anybody? 
A. I  have had none brought to my attention and have dis­
covered none.

Q. In addition, is there much vacant land out here that 
can be developed for residential purposes that’s west of the 
present school? A. The Riverton School, of course, is 
located just on the west side of Washington Avenue. That 
entire territory west of Washington Avenue within the 
city limits is completely open. It ’s expected, of course, to 
develop at least partially in a residential pattern. Some 
of it no doubt will develop along commercial or industrial 
lines.

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that there is a sub­
division that’s been opened up down here just immediately 
west of the Booker T. Washington School? A. I am.

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Q. So, there’s area for development for houses in that 
area? A. Quite a development is under way in there at 
the moment.

—40—
Q. All right, sir.
Now, such building as we have in Clarksdale and south 

of this east-west raiload line, where is that building going 
on at the present time? A. Quite a bit of it is located 
southwest of the Higgins High School in the territory 
where you are indicating with the pointer.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, at this point, with 
respect to this line of inquiry, I  would like to object 
also to the form of leading with the pointer as well 
as leading in the form of a leading question.

Counsel is asking him where building is going on 
while lie’s pointing to a certain part on the map, and 
I  think that is an impermissible form of leading.

Mr. Luckett: Well—
The Court: As a matter of fact, for counsel’s in­

formation, as I  sat here and observed it, Mr. Tynes 
had said in the southwest area before the pointer 
ever went to the board.

Let’s get the record straight on that.
Mr. Luckett: And may I  say, if the Court please, 

Clarksdale is a relatively small place. Mr. Tynes 
knows this as well as I  do. I  don’t have to tell him

—41—
this information. He can see it. Anybody knows 
where the building is going on. I  don’t have to 
prompt Mr. Tynes to tell him where the building is 
going on in Clarksdale.

The Court: All right.

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Your objection is overruled.
You may proceed.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Tynes, do you know of anything else that should 
be pointed out to the Court with respect to how these new 
lines were drawn or how the old lines were left or why the 
old lines were left as they have been? A. The School 
Board and its administrative staff can see no reasons, edu­
cational reasons, administrative reasons, for following any 
other course or proposing any other zones and subdistrict 
boundaries other than those which have been proposed to 
this Court.

The school officials, including the Board and its adminis­
trative staff, have studied these total situations for years, 
long before this School Board was ever called into court.

The School Board was seeking to solve its problems in a 
satisfactory, administrative, educational way.

I would say again, which I have said before, there is not
—42—

a racial consideration in any proposal before this Court, 
anything under discussion here today at this hearing.

The School Board is disregarding totally the racial char­
acteristics of the people and is simply proposing these 
zones as being the best for the children and patrons of this 
school district, and racial considerations are just simply out 
the window.

Q. Let’s get now to the problem of combining the Eliza 
Clark and the Myrtle Hall School.

Mr. Tynes, will the consolidation of those two schools 
into one school, with the first and second grades that are 
now present in Myrtle Hall switched over to Eliza Clark 
and the third, fourth, fifth and sixth now at the Eliza Clark

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switched over to Myrtle Hall, present any particular or 
peculiar administrative problem or can it be easily accom­
plished! A. That consolidation can be easily effected and 
administered during the summer months.

Of course, in the summer months we keep our elementary 
principals on duty two weeks into June after the end of 
the school year. We bring them back in August two weeks 
before the new term is to begin. In addition, we bring in 
all teachers three days before the opening of the fall se-

— 43—

mester for a workshop, preschool workshop.
Now, during these periods of times set aside for plan­

ning, changes of this type, whether consolidation or decon­
solidation,—of course, we have experienced both types here 
in this district—we can plan a phasing out of one zone— 
in other words, a combining of the two—-in an efficient, or­
derly and educationally conducive manner.

On the other hand, if this consolidation process were en­
gaged in during the school year, it would almost amount to 
educational chaos. We would have no time for planning 
with teachers or principals. The administrators involved 
are busy with their task already and very little time would 
remain for them, of course, to do any planning. Not only 
that; it takes a teacher, of course, some days to get estab­
lishment of communication or rapport between herself and 
her pupils. The confidence, the empathy, the compassion, 
these lines of feeling, sensitivity and the like, must be es­
tablished because a teacher, as is set forth in the law, 
stands in place of the parent with these children, in loco 
parentis, of course, a legal term.

Now, that has been done for this school year. Each 
teacher has her group. She has studied their permanent 
records, their cumulative records, their antodontal records.

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She has studied their intelligence test scores. She has 
studied their achievement test scores, aptitude scores and 
the like. She knows these children quite adequately. She 
knows their strengths, their weaknesses. She has studied 
their home backgrounds, all of these factors which enter 
into the learning-teaching process.

Now, if we come into the middle of the year and cast 
aside all these preparations which have been made, plan­
ning in June, planning in August, and the orientation which 
teachers and principals have made, of course, contact with 
parents and the like, if we should come and simply junk 
all of this planning, this entire community would wonder, 
of course, what sort of local administrative leadership it 
has. There certainly would be doubts raised as to the com­
petency of the School Board, the School Superintendent, 
the principals and all concerned. In fact, we wouldn’t have 
a leg to stand on to defend that sort of thing before the 
community.

Q. Would it require two thirds of the pupils now at the 
Eliza Clark School to transfer over to Eliza Clark? A. 
That’s true.

Q. I mean to Myrtle Hall. A. That’s true.
— 45—

Q. Would those children have to adjust to new class­
mates? A. They would, of course.

Q. And to an entirely different environment? A. That’s
true.

Q. To an entirely different teacher? A. Right.
Q. Would that be hurtful or helpful to them from an 

educational viewpoint, Mr. Tynes? A. It would be de­
cidedly hurtful and harmful.

Q. Even the one third that are left here—



675

A third from Myrtle Hall would come over and be 
with— A. A third would have to—

Q. A third would come over to Eliza Clark? A. That’s 
true.

Q. Even the third that’s left at the Eliza Clark—would 
they have to adjust to new classmates? A. That’s true.

Q. New teachers and what-not? A. True.
Q. The whole thing would have to— A. In fact, all the 

children at each center would have to adjust to a new situa-
— 46—

tion. There would simply be a period there of turmoil.
Of course, there’s the legal side here. The School Board 

is under a contract with two principals and two secretaries. 
Once a consolidation is effected, one principal and one sec­
retary will no longer be needed. Consequently, the School 
Board would find itself paying off contracts simply to a 
principal and a secretary and from which it would be re­
ceiving little or no service.

Not only that; the School Board contracts with teachers 
to teach at a particular center pursuant to state law, which 
requires the Superintendent to nominate principals to the 
School Board. Once the School Board has selected its prin­
cipals, then the law and Board policy both require the prin­
cipal to nominate his or her staff. He or she nominates 
them to the Superintendent. He in turn passes on the fit­
ness and qualifications of those recommended, makes his 
recommendations to the School Board, and, of course, the 
final appointments are made then. We therefore, have all 
of the teachers at each center recommended by their re­
spective principals; of course, approved by the Superin­
tendent finally upon advice of the Board of Trustees. If 
these are shifted about, of course, there will be confused

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— 47 —

loyalty, whereas one principal had recommended them and 
later they’re being exchanged or reassigned, and, of course, 
there will be a great weakening of teacher morale in a sit­
uation like that.

Q. If  this consolidation is brought about during the mid­
dle of the year, will teachers from one school have to be 
transferred to the other school? A. They would have to be.

Q. Do we have any legal right to transfer the teachers? 
A. I know of none.

Q. Do you know whether the teachers would rebel at mak­
ing the change or whether they would refuse to make the 
change? A. I  do not know.

The teacher, of course, would have to weigh that prob­
lem, and what would occur I do not know.

Q. Would those problems disappear if we can make that 
transition at the beginning of the next school year? A. 
Totally so. It would never enter the picture.

Q. Will the benefits that will accrue to the consolida­
tion inure to the school district if it’s done in the middle of

— 48 —

the year? A. No. The benefits, advantages, would be en­
tirely dissipated.

Mr. Duckett: I f  the Court please, that’s all I have 
of Mr. Tynes at the present time.

The Court: Mr. Tynes, what are the administra­
tive values of what you call here subdistricts?

The Witness: The chief thing we’re attempting 
here, of course, is a long-range plan. We expect this 
city to grow and grow. In fact, its history of recent 
growth indicates that some day there will be a good 
size metropolis.



677

Now, we’re hoping here to set up subdistricts in 
which eventually more or less the entire school sys­
tem will grow up, all 12 grades.

We have that, of course, in the southeast quadrant. 
We have it in the northwest quadrant.

We’re proposing right early in the future to add a 
junior high school just south of Riverton where 
we’ve already acquired the acreage. The School 
Board has title to the site now.

Of course, that is for efficiency. It ’s for maximum 
utilization of teacher resources. It ’s for the purpose 
of keeping the schools as close to the pupils and

— 49—

the people as possible, where loyalties can be built 
up. In fact, it’s for the successful administration of 
a school system.

We have seen other centers grow up in which 
planning wTas not carried out, and all sorts of prob­
lems arose. We’re hoping here to circumvent some 
of those problems by long-range planning.

Of course, we have pointed out already that within 
these subdistricts we would hope that the Court 
would yield to the Board of Trustees some discre­
tion in—

The Court: Flexibility?
The Witness: That’s right.

—altering slightly—never, of course, in a major 
way, but slightly—the boundaries in order to utilize 
school facilities to the maximum or optimum degree.

The Court: Do you envision a development of 
the school system so that you might or—I  say you— 
the Superintendent might need assistant superin­
tendents ?

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The Witness: That’s correct.
The Court: That may not have a thing on earth 

to do with the problems now before the Court, but 
percentagewise what growth prediction do you have 
pupil-wise for this system?

—50—
The Witness: In what period of time!
The Court: Over the next 10 years.
The Witness: The next 10 years.
In the past—well, 1950 to 1960 the pupil popula­

tion just lacked a fraction of doubling. Consequently, 
the next 10 years we would expect, with the present 
5200 enrollment, to push up somewhere around, ap­
proaching 8,000.

The pupil population for some reason is really 
constantly expanding, especially in the urban areas.

The Court: Thank you, sir.

By Mr. Luckett:

Q. Mr. Tynes, what would you say, along that line, about 
the holding power of the schools, particularly with reference 
to the children who are south of the track? A. It has vastly 
increased. In fact, just a few years ago I  would say close 
to one third of the entire population, 12 grades, would 
have been located in the first grade—almost a third. At 
present there is no more than, oh, 14 or 15 per cent located 
in the first grade. Consequently, the pupils are now taking 
their place all the way across the structure from Grade 1 
to 12. The upper grades are constantly increasing in size. 
In fact, the fastest growth right at the moment percentage-

—5 1 -
wise is occurring in the secondary grades, junior high and 
senior high.

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Q. Are there not more elementary school children south 
of the track than there are north of the track!

I ’m talking about the east-west track now. A. Consider­
ably more.

Q. Considerably more.
Are there not considerably more high school pupils north 

of that east-west track— A. That’s true.
Q. —than there are south of the east-west track? A. 

That’s true.
Q. With the schools south of the track developing a hold­

ing power comparable to the schools north of the track, as 
you seem to indicate that they’re beginning to develop, 
will it not be true that there will be more high school pupils 
south of the track than there are presently north of the 
track? A. That’s true. It ’s bound to happen.

Q. That being true, given that same holding power south 
of these tracks as there is north of the tracks, will there 
not be enough senior high school and junior high pupils 
in the southwest quadrant and in the southeast quadrant

—52—
for a separate school district? A. There will be for a com­
plete 12-grade system in each quadrant. Of course, that’s 
back in the planning which the School Board has here, has 
projected.

Q. Now, this map does not show the new subdivision 
that’s created—it’s actually outside of the City of Clarks- 
dale at the present time—in what is now or joins what is 
now Zone E-3-A? A. That’s true. It does not.

Q. Are streets being installed at the present time? A. 
Streets are being laid out. Utilities are being run out there 
at the present. I think one, possibly one, unit is under con­
struction.

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Q. We have already pointed out to the Court at another 
time that the westerly boundary line of the town and of this 
zone, elementary zone, in the northwest—well, the whole 
northwest quadrant—hits the sixteenth section line— A. 
That’s true.

Q. —out there? A. True.
Q. That’s a barrier to the future development to the 

west? A. That’s true.
—53—

Mr. Luckett: I  have no more questions, your
Honor.

The Court: You may cross-examine.

Cross Examination by Mr. Aronson:

Q. Mr. Tynes, to clear one factor up, you were just mak­
ing some distinctions about the so-called holding power 
south of the track and north of the track. Are we talking 
about Negroes and whites, Mr. Tynes? A. Primarily. Pri­
marily; yes.

Q. Primarily? A. Yes.
Q. Or exclusively? A. Almost exclusively. Of course, 

some whites south of the track.
South of the tracks include some white,—
Q. Do you— A. —but chiefly the school Negroes south 

of the track,—
Q. Do you— A. —except one white elementary.
Q. Do you find that the whites south of the track act 

differently than the whites north of the track? A. Well,
— 54—

not a great deal; no.
Q. A little bit? A. Well, I haven’t studied that matter 

per se.

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681

I  would say, so far as that’s concerned, in any residential 
areas in the city there would be slight differentials, but 
no perhaps major ones.

Q. It’s a fact, isn’t it, Mr. Tynes, what you are talking 
about is Negroes and whites when you were talking about 
south of the track? A. Primarily.

Q. Well, if your judgment is influenced by the activities 
or responses of some white people, I  would like you to tes­
tify to it, Mr. Tynes. I f  not, I would like your answer to 
indicate— A. Well, of course, the witness is under oath 
here to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 
Consequently, I cannot cover the truth more exactly than 
I have by use of the term “primarily”.

Q. All right. A. There could be some differences in 
there which the witness does not know.

Q. Mr. Tynes, I ’d like to talk to you just for a moment, 
without reference to any specific zone, about the philosophy

—55—
of the School Board and your office in setting up these, and 
most particularly what considerations in terms of impor­
tance, from most important to the least important, were 
you and your associates evaluating when you set out the 
school zones.

Mr. Luckett: If  the Court please, I  object to any 
testimony except in respect to the zones which are 
now under consideration with this revised plan. The 
rest of the matter of the zones has been covered by 
the order of August the 10th and I don’t think we 
ought to retry the lawsuit that’s already been tried.

Mr. Aronson: I respectfully submit, your Honor, 
I ’m going into areas that were opened up by Mr. 
Luckett and his witness at the time that he asked

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682

about areas that weren’t even in the City of Clarks- 
dale. I am, indeed, interested in these areas and 
would like to expand them.

Mr. Luckett: I—
Mr. Aronson: He was—
Mr. Luckett: Excuse me.
Mr. Aronson: —-testifying about areas where they 

don’t even have streets laid down yet north of the 
city and an area which pursuant to the August 10 
order is closed.

The door has been opened by Mr. Luckett, and I
—5 6 -

think it’s something that we can—
The Court: The door hasn’t been opened by the 

Court, though, Mr. Aronson, and I  do not want to 
try the lawsuit, go back over the same ground we 
covered in the hearing preceding the order of Au­
gust 10th.

The objection is overruled, but I do want you to 
stay on the track with the issues that are before the 
Court, that is, whether the plan submitted for the 
revision of the elementary school districts south of 
the railroad will be approved or not.

You may proceed.
Mr. Aronson: Thank you.
Do you want me to repeat my question, Mr. Tynes 1
The Witness: Please do.
Mr. Aronson: There has been a lot said since.
The Witness: Please do.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I would like you to state for the Court those considera­
tions, in order of importance, from most important to least

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683

important, tliat you and your associates evaluated when you 
set out the school zones. A. We did not attempt to give 
the ranking—one, two, three, four, five. We simply set up

—57—
criteria or factors to which, of course, I have testified al­
ready, and, of course, if you want those repeated I  can go 
into that.

Q. I would appreciate it. I— A. All right.
The question of various factors which the School Board 

or administrators dealt with or reckoned with in setting up 
zones in these five particular areas:

Of course, we have the utilization of buildings;
We have proximity of children;
We have, of course, the matter of their safety, of the 

welfare of the children along traveled routes which 
can be supervised in order to eliminate as many 
hazards as possible, such factors as those.

It’s necessary, of course, to have clearly defined boundary 
lines; otherwise always being open to question by plain­
tiff lawyers and perhaps even by the Court.

Such factors as those general criteria.
Of course, the overwhelming consideration, since you 

asked that, is the educational welfare of children.
The School Board is under state law in this particular 

state to be responsible for the educational welfare of the
—58—

children and the economic welfare of the school district, 
the supporting tax base. In all of its activities the Board 
of Trustees of the Clarksdale Municipal Separate School 
District endeavors to keep those two paramount functions 
foremost in its thinking.

Q. But when you talk about general educational factors

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684

I take it that what you refer to then is the composite of 
proximity, safety, utilization of the buildings, which are 
the prime factors that you have set out? A. Yes.

Q. Fine. That’s helpful.
Now, I  am interested in the inquiry which was initiated 

by the Court with respect to subzones or subdistricts, and, 
as I gathered from your testimony, you talked about some 
type of loyalty that it would tend to engender, but I  wonder 
if you would expand on that and state what functions at this 
time the subdistricts serve. A. Perhaps a chief function is 
to divide the total district into manageable units, whereby 
the Board of Trustees can work on particular sections and 
have them clearly identifiable.

Of course, we have pointed out earlier in testimony here
—5 9 -

today and in previous testimony if this School Board as a 
defendant in this case does not come with clearly identifiable 
boundary lines then, of course, its faith, its good intention, 
its purposes and the like would always be questioned. Con­
sequently, the School Board has come with lines which were 
clearly identifiable, permanent type boundary lines,—you 
could call them more or less natural boundaries—in the 
hope that it could get out of court and get on with the busi­
ness of administering schools for the children.

Q. I  appreciate that, Mr. Tynes. I ’m just now interested 
in the subdistricts, not the zones. I  think I ’m pretty clear 
on the reasoning behind your zones— A. Yes.

Q. —and I would just, for this moment, like to shift to 
the subdistricts,— A. Bight.

Q. —E-l, E-2, E-3 and E-4. A. Bight.
Q. And I wondered if you would address yourself par­

ticularly to the utility that these subdistricts serve. A. I 
think we have possibly pointed out the immediate practical 
purpose of the subdistricts is simply this: The School Board

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685

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— 60—

would continue to maintain so initiative in the setting up 
of its zones in order, of course, to be assured by the sub­
district that some flexibility within that subdistrict could 
be utilized by the Board of Trustees.

From time to time, every two or three years, in fact, 
population will grow in this direction or that direction. 
Commercialization or industrialization will come in one 
zone. Residential development will occur in another. Con­
sequently, populations are going to vary. Elementary 
populations, secondary populations are going to vary within 
these zones. If the School Board does not have some over­
all area encompassing two or more zones, then, of course, 
it will have no flexibility; it’ll have no options, no initiative. 
Every time it needs to make a change for the benefit of 
children, it’ll have to come back to court and request that 
type of permission. That, of course, would be a time-con­
suming business. It would weary the ears of the Court. It 
would be a frustrating experience for the School Board and 
its administrative staff.

Q. I certainly— A. We’re simply seeking here some 
means by which we can operate schools and not have to be 
continuously coming back to weary the ears of the Court.

— 61—

Q. I  certainly have no desire to have you come to court 
every time you wish to make a change, Mr. Tynes, but you 
still haven’t explained what function the subdistricts serve.

As I understand the Court order which was entered in 
this matter and each subsequent addition or modification 
of the Court order, there has been no mention of subdis­
tricts other than a passing recognition that they exist.

Subdistricts do not relate to where children go to school. 
The fact that a child lives in Subdistrict Number 1 has



686

absolutely no bearing on where he goes to school. The 
only factor that’s relevant in that child’s existence in rela­
tionship to a school is the zone he lives in.

Is that not correct! A. That’s a half truth. That 
wouldn’t be a whole truth. In other words, I  couldn’t tes­
tify to that.

Q. All right. Let me ask you this: I f  I  told you that a 
child lived in Subdistrict Number E-l, can you tell me any­
thing about where that child would go to school? A. Yes; 
surely.

Q. Where would he go to school? A. He, of course, 
would go to the elementary school contained in one of the

—62—
at present three zones—

Q. Precisely. A. —contained in that subdistrict.
Q. Ah, but that requires you to ask me a question, and 

that is : Where does he live— A. Surely.
Q. —with respect to the three zones? A. Surely.
Q. And what I ’m now trying to establish is that the sub­

districts at this point serve no function, and that’s what I ’m 
asking you to address yourself to.

What functions do these subdistricts provide? A. Well, 
possibly I didn’t get through to you, but I  would say within 
12 months surely we will need to make some changes in 
Subdistrict E-2 in two zones. If  we don’t have a subdistrict 
set up there within which we have some legal permission 
to slightly modify those zone boundaries, then, of course, 
the hands of the School Board would be tied. It would 
have to come back to the Court for permission.

Q. Perhaps I  don’t understand the Court’s order.
As I understand the Court’s order, no direction or no 

permission or no import at this point in time follows from 
the subdistricts. In other words, if I  were to get a letter

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687

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—6 3 -
in. the mail tomorrow and I was to be informed that Sub­
district E -l had been changed and you drew a zigzagging 
line which went all around in a circle on this map and bore 
no relationship to anything, I would have no response to it 
because at this point, as I understand the plan, the subdis­
tricts have no function, and that’s precisely what I ’m ask­
ing you to clear up for us now.

What functions do the subdistricts serve? A. Surely 
you have read this response of the defendants’ attorney 
here in the revised plan for elementary attendance zones in 
Subdistricts E -l and 2. That matter requests for the Court 
to clarify this flexibility as set forth in this legal document. 
Of course, it has not yet become a part of the Court order, 
part of the August 10 order, to the extent requested here.

I  think the Court more or less just approved the subdis­
trict lines as they were, but mentioned, as you are men­
tioning here, it did not see the present value of them.

Q. Yes. A. And, of course, that has been addressed here 
in this document.

Q. Well, assume that your plan that you have submitted 
and which you have just referred to is approved by the

- 6 1 -
Court. I ’ve read the revised plan. I ’m still unclear, and 
let me ask again: If  this is approved, i.e., the revised docu­
ment, then what function will the subdistricts serve? A. 
Well, Number 1, it gives to the School Board flexibility in 
modifying slightly the elementary attendance zones making 
up that elementary subdistrict.

Secondly—
Q. Can we stop at that point— A. Yes.



6 8 8

Q. —and just let me ask you a question about that? A. 
Yes.

Q. Let’s assume momentarily there is no subdistrict. 
Let’s just look south of the track, which is where we are 
focusing today, and let’s just say we have got Zone E-l-A, 
E-l-B, E-l-C, and we don’t have subdistricts. We’ll call this 
E-2-A now E-l-D, and E-l-E , which will replace E-2-B. A. 
Yes.

Q. In other words, we’ll just have five zones down here, 
as we have now, without any relation to the subdistricts.

Now, let’s further assume, for good educational reasons, 
that you wanted to move the westernmost boundary of

—6 5 -
Zone E-l-A, which runs generally north and south, west two 
blocks, for good and sufficient educational reasons.

Now, if you wanted to move that, that doesn’t bear any 
relation to this subdistrict. In other words, the only thing 
that bears relationship to are the other zones.

Furthermore, Zone E-l-A, E-l-B, et cetera bear no rela­
tionship to the high school. Furthermore, they bear no re­
lationship to the junior high school.

I  don’t understand, and I ask you to tell the Court and 
to me: What do these subdistricts do? What function do 
they serve at this time?

If you wanted to change these zones, the fact that the 
subdistricts were approved would be irrelevant, as I un­
derstand it. A. Well, I can’t agree there with your tes­
timony.

Of course, the senior high school is made up of feeder 
schools, junior high, elementary and the like coming up. 
Of course, subdistricts are always envisioned with that 
purpose in mind. You’re tying together your feeder schools

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689

into an organized, planned, systematic whole or at least a 
major subdivision of your whole or entire school district.

The Court: I  think one thing that troubles Mr. 
Aronson and gave me some concern on this very

— 66-

problem: You have no administrative echelon or 
control echelon between the principal of a given ele­
mentary school and the Superintendent’s Office that 
relates in any way to the sub-district.

The Witness: Well, of course, that’s envisioned, 
definitely.

The Court: That’s what I  gathered from your an­
swer to the Court’s question earlier,—

The Witness: Surely.
The Court: —that ultimately you envision the de­

velopment of a plan where a subdistrict would, in 
fact, be an administrative district operating under 
the Superintendent’s Office.

The Witness: The district superintendent or in­
termediate superintendent; that’s correct.

Mr. Aronson: That’s somewhat clearer.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Then what you’re doing at this time, Mr. Tynes, is 
looking to the future, and I  take it that your answer would 
be subdistricts today, November 15th, 1965, have no prac­
tical function; is that correct? A. I  couldn’t say that; no; 
not at all.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, I ’m not trying to un-
— 6 7 —

duly prolong this. I don’t see what the function is, 
and if there is some function it isn’t set out in the

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690

plan, and I  respectfully submit that his testimony 
hasn’t indicated it, and on behalf of the plaintiffs I  
think that we have an obligation to understand what 
service or what function these things provide, these 
subdistricts, if they’re to be approved by the Court.

The Court: Well, Mr. Aronson, taking your very 
position on it, I  can’t see that it has any relevance to 
this hearing at all. We’re concerned with zones pri­
marily, and I  think we’re spending entirely too much 
time on this.

I  think I  understand why they’re being used from 
what the witness has said. They are actually a foun­
dation for future projection and they feel that they 
need flexibility within the district.

Truthfully, it occurs to me that the subdistrict 
boundaries or subdistrict boundary lines superim­
posed between zones, if there is to be any flexibility 
within the subdistrict, itself, imposes rigidity with 
respect to the adjoining other subdistrict.

Mr. Luckett: If the Court please, that’s the exact 
point.

May I  read you the paragraph where we ask for
— 68—

this flexibility, this Paragraph V or Part V :

“In the order to be entered herein pursuant to the 
Court’s determination of the issues presented hereby, 
it should be specifically spelled out that defendant 
Board of Trustees will have the right to change or 
modify the boundaries of all attendance areas or 
zones within the school district whenever required 
for the economical use of the school facilities, pro­
vided such changes or modifications do not violate

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691

the boundaries of a subdistrict and do not result in 
a transfer of a large number of pupils from one at­
tendance area or zone to another.”

Now, that subdistrict line does provide a limita­
tion upon what we’ve asked about our particular 
right of modification, and that’s one of the reasons 
we went into such detail. We do not think that the 
Court should give us the right, because of the safety- 
factor involved, to change this boundary line here 
so we would straddle that railroad line. We shouldn’t 
—we can’t—do that zigzagging all over town like 
Mr. Aronson said, and we don’t think we have the 
right to ask for that. We ask only for the right to 
modify the zone lines within a particular subdistrict,

—69—
and we are bounded in each one of these subdistricts 
by railroad tracks.

The Court: For the time being, Court is in recess 
until 10 minutes of eleven.

(Thereupon, at 10:29 a. m., a 21-minute recess was 
taken.)

The Court: You may be seated.
All right, Mr. Aronson. You may proceed.
Mr. Aronson: Thank you, your Honor.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Mr. Tynes, before we broke for the recess we were 
talking about the concept of subdistricts. We’ll move on at 
this time and expand just a bit into the philosophy of the 
School Board, as you understand it or understood it, in 
drawing up the zone lines.

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692

Now, you stated in broad, general categories the factors 
which you and your associates evaluated when you set up 
the districts.

Now, I ’d like to get specifics, if we might.
By way of background, when the Clarksdale School Dis­

trict first considered the problems of desegregation, at a 
time when you had a segregated system, you did have geo­
graphical zones, did you not, for both children of the

—70—
white race and children of the Negro race! A. Yes; that’s 
true.

Q. And it was against this background that you came into 
the change in the one set of boundaries; is that correct! 
A. That’s true.

Q. When did you first establish—

Mr. Aronson: Strike that, please.

By Mr. Aronson:
Q. When did you first put into operation the school 

district lines which we see set out on this map before the 
Court, which is Exhibit—

The Court: It hasn’t been introduced as an ex­
hibit. It’s Map Number V that was filed as an ex­
hibit to the original proposal of these defendants, 
with the exception that this one has the school build­
ings, the physical facilities, approximated on the 
map.

Mr. Aronson: Thank you, your Honor.
The Witness: The question: When did the school 

district begin operating under these attendance 
zones!

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693

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Mr. Aronson: Eight.
The Witness: That was 1964 and ’65, the school 

year. Consequently, the first school year in ’64.
—71—

By Mr. Aronson:
Q. Now, at the time that you testified in this hearing on 

the 9th of April you had been conducting your schools along 
these lines that are set out then in Map Number Y ; is that 
correct? A. That is true.

Of course, the Court’s order specified certain grades, 
Grades 1 and 2 for ’64-’65.

Q. I  understand. A. Yes.
Q. We’re talking about the grades— A. Surely.
Q. —that had been reached. A. Surely.
Q. Let me ask this: During ’64-’65, when Grades 1 and 2 

had been reached, were any exceptions granted to students 
living within a given zone which permitted them to attend 
a school in a different zone? A. The Court granted excep­
tion for grades not under the Court order; but for Grades 
1 and 2, no.

Q. For Grades 1 and 2, no? A. No.
Q Now when you went into the 1964-’65 school year—

—72—
Mr. Aronson: Strike that.

By Mr. Aronson:
Q. When you went into the 1965-’66 school year, the cur­

rent year, you entered into contracts with teachers and 
contemplated classroom utilization on the basis of the zones 
set out on this Map Number V? A. That is true.

Q. Is that correct? A. True.
Q. Did you contemplate any exceptions with respect to— 

A. Teachers or pupils you have in mind?



694

Q. Either teachers or pupils. A. Of course, August the 
10th the Court order most recent was issued. The teachers 
were contracted with back in March and April. Conse­
quently, those contracts entered into back there had some 
degree certainly, I suppose you would have to say, of un­
certainty to them, uncertainty not from a legal standpoint 
as far as the contract is concerned, hut they were simply en­
tered into on a basis of faith and confidence that these 
centers would be operated during the ’65 and ’66 school 
year.

—73—
Of course, once the order was entered in August, the bud­

get had been finalized. All contracts had been finalized 
months previous to that time. Consequently, the school dis­
trict would have been in poor position to modify those con­
tracts or anything else. In fact, those arrangements had 
been finalized before the conclusion of the ’64-’65 fiscal year, 
June the 30t,h.

Q. Well, going specifically to my question, in ’65-’66, 
which is the current year, were your contracts entered into 
and your projections with respect to attendance in the vari­
ous centers made on the basis of each student, without ex­
ception, in the desegregated grades going to the school 
within his zone? A. Surely. Surely.

Q. In other words, the Court order—
This goes back sometime into the ’64-’65 school year. So, 

when ’65-’66 came up, you made your predictions; right? 
A. Right.

We didn’t know which grades would be desegregated, but 
we knew additional grades would be. Which ones we did 
not know.

Q. So, your testimony would be the same—I quote now

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695

— 74—
from Page 493 of the record of the transcript of the April 
9, 1965 hearing, wherein you were asked the question, and 
I  quote:

“Did the defendants bring forward in their plan any 
transfer provisions which might he manipulative with 
racial considerations in mind?”

And your answer:

“There is not the first possibility of any transfer 
from zone to zone in this situation.

“I  noticed that some of the witnesses for the plain­
tiffs yesterday afternoon or this morning possibly”— 
and we’ll skip some—indefinite about time—“seemed 
to be not absolutely certain concerning that thing. Ap­
parently they had in mind freedom of choice or some­
thing else.”

And then in going on, and still quoting you:

“This thing is completely rigid. We’ve had to tell 
parent after parent that: ‘You must attend this school 
or none other in the school system.’ ”

A. That’s true. It’s rigid so far as this Court’s order ap­
plies to a grade.

—75—
The school district would have no legal authority what­

soever to entertain any request for transfer. If it did so, 
it would be in contempt of this Court.

Q. Now, I  take it that this is with the exception of Zone 
E-3-A.

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696

Mr. Aronson: And, yonr Honor, I think it’s pen 
missible, and I  request the Court’s permission, to ask 
some questions about children in E-3-A because they 
attend school in the particular area that we’re con­
cerned with at this hearing.

The Court: You may do so.

By Mr. A ronson:

Q. Now, Zone E-3-A is at this time a meaningless zone, is 
it not? A. In some respects, yes; but, of course, in others 
it’s not.

It ’s a legal entity; at least a geographical entity—per­
haps a better description.

Q. Well, is there a school Zone E-3-A? A. No. No.
Q. Have you acquired land in Zone E-3-A to build a 

school? A. We have finalized—
—76—

The School Board has been negotiating for some months 
for land in that zone.

Q. My question, Mr. Tynes: Do you own land—does the 
School Board own land—in E-3-A for the construction of a 
school? A. Only one small site, possibly four or five acres, 
which hardly is sufficient.

Q. So, you don’t own a site? A. Well, we own about 
four acres, which is larger than some of the other sites, but 
we would prefer to add to it or exchange it for other 
property.

Q. You would prefer to add to it or exchange it in for 
other property? A. Bight.

Q. So, in other words, the site that you presently own 
would not be sufficient for the type of school you’d wish 
to build; is that correct? A. We’d have to say this: Some­
what inadequate. It’s not totally adequate, but it’s perhaps

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twice as large as some sites which we have on which we now 
have schools, but we would prefer a larger site, seven or 
eight acres as a minimum.

Q. And did you not testify that, in considering this dis-
—77—

trict, you’re also contemplating the growth of the city and 
the growth of subdivisions in a part of Coahoma County 
which is not presently— A. That’s true.

Q. —within the city limits! A. That’s true.
Part of the long-range plans, projections.
Q. And, if I  recall your testimony earlier in another hear­

ing, you have absolutely no knowledge of what the zoning 
authorities are going to do or what annexation will or will 
not take place, do you! A. Except what I  read in news­
papers or what is common knowledge.

Q. Common knowledge that this is going to be annexed! 
A. Well, it’s common knowledge that realtors and city gov­
ernment have been dickering back and forth for months 
concerning utility lines, concerning street development, all 
of these things, which is normal. Any time property is sub­
divided for residences this negotiating, of course, does be­
come a matter always between realtors and municipal or 
other authorities. Consequently, those articles have been 
in the papers for many months.

Q. Is it my understanding that this is not a part of the
- 7 8 -

City of Clarksdale at this time! A. Only in the lines which 
are drawn, and accurately drawn, and, of course, some of 
these subdivisions are outside those lines; true.

Q. So, is my understanding correct that Zone E-3-A and, 
indeed, Subdistrict E-3-A, for whatever use they have, have 
no schools in them whatsoever! A. That’s true.

Q. All right.

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698

Where do students attend, the elementary students at­
tend, school that live within Zone E-3-A? A. Most of them 
attend the Oakhurst School. A small group in the south­
east corner of 3-A attend Eliza Clark.

Q. How many attend Eliza Clark, would you guess! A. 
Somewhere—

Q. Do you know? A. I ’d say close to 25.
Q. Close to 25 attend Eliza Clark.
And in the old days, before you redesigned your zone 

lines on a unitary basis,—in other words, back Avhen you 
had both Negro school zones and white school zones—was 
Eliza Clark the school for what is now known as Zone 
E-3-A? A. No. No.

—79—
A small group of pupils in the southeast corner of Zone 

E-3-A did attend Eliza Clark, in which case they have been 
permitted to continue to do so, but primarily Eliza Clark 
took care of children in that southeast quadrant where you 
are standing.

Q. The southeast quadrant! A. Yes. All of Subdistrict 
E-l.

Q. C? A. No. Subdistrict E -l. All three zones.
Q. Oh, the white children in all three zones went here? 

A. Historically.
Q. Right. Right.
Now, where do children in Grade 1 in the southern part 

of District E-3-A presently attend school? A. In the 
southeastern part—that’s residential.

Southeastern. Back to your right.
No. That’s southwest.
Back in there.
That’s residential at the moment. However, it’s about 

to be commercially developed. All that residential property

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699

I  notice is being sold at the present time for commercial
—8 0 -

development.
But the entire southwestern part of that, south-central, 

all of that, is business district of the city.
Q. My question was: Are there any students in Zone 

E-3-A in the first grade attending the Hall School! A. No.
Q. Excuse me. A. Clark.
Q. The Clark School. A. I  answered previously some­

where close to 25 from E-3-A attend Clark,
Q. But I ’m focusing on Grade 1 now. A. Well, I ’d have 

to check records. I  don’t have that.
Q. Is there a chance that there may be some ? A. There’s 

a possibility; surely. I  wouldn’t think there would be—of 
the 25, roughly five or six.

Q. I  see.
So, it’s not simply to accommodate those that have previ­

ously gone there because you’re starting new people there 
this year; is that not correct! A. That’s true.

—81—
Some of them have. They have a choice. They’ve had a 

choice.
Q. They have had a choice! A. Permitted by the Court.
Q. I  see.
To go to either the Clark School or the school— A. The 

School Board was given, of course, discretionary authority 
by the Court to place them there or at Oakhurst, depending 
upon certain criteria, factors of safety and the like, prox­
imity and so forth,—

Q. And given all— A. —utilization of—
Q. Given all those factors, there are still some attending 

the Clark School! A. Somewhere around 25.
Q. Now, just for a moment focusing on, well, Subdistrict

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700

E-2, which may have some value for this line of inquiry, in 
the past where have white students at the elementary levels 
attended school that lived within Subdistrict E-2! A. 
Primarily at Oakhurst.

Q. S ir! A. Primarily at Oakhurst.
—82—

Q. Oakhurst! A. Yes.
Q. Which is north of the railroad track! A. Right.
Q. I  see.
And how many people historically within the time that 

you have been associated with the Clarksdale District would 
this include in the elementary grades? A. Possibly 50 or 
60 covered six grades.

Q. Fifty or 60! A. Possibly that number.
Q. Would go over to Oakhurst! A. Possibly.
Q. And, similarly, the students living in Subdistrict E-2 

and Subdistrict E -l that attended junior and high school, 
all those whites, would go up to the Clarksdale High School; 
is that right? A. That’s right.

Mr. Luckett: If  the Court please, this has nothing 
to do with our revised plan; not a thing in the world 
to do with it.

Mr. Aronson: Oh, I  respectfully submit, your
Honor, it does.

—83—
The Court: In what way, Mr. Aronson?
Mr. Aronson: I  think I  can tie it up shortly, but 

one of the great factors that is relied upon by de­
fendants is safety and I  think what we’re showing is 
that the Clarksdale School Board—

The Court: You showed all of this on the hearing 
that preceded the order of August 10th and the Court

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701

approved the northeast-southwest railway as a prin­
cipal boundary in the school system.

Mr. Aronson: All right, your Honor.
The Court: I  think it’s amply in the record, Mr. 

Aronson, that before this plan was initially sub­
mitted that there were pupils crossing that railroad 
to attend school in substantial numbers, if that’s the 
point you’re trying to make.

Mr. Aronson: Thank you, your Honor.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. In the answers to interrogatories, Mr. Tynes, with 
respect to the Riverton enrollment, you answered—the de­
fendants answered—that in Zone E-2-B there are 461 chil­
dren attending Riverton, and of the 461 all of them live in 
E-2-B with the exception of one section of children who re­
side in E-2-A. Now, what section, what grade, is that! A.

—84—
Sixth. Sixth grade.

Q. Sixth grade! A. Yes, which is yet to come under 
the Court’s desegregation steps or plans.

Q. Something I  am a hit confused about and perhaps you 
can clear up for us: Were these zone lines drawn with the 
thought of best utilizing the facilities for the grades being 
desegregated in the given year that the lines were drawn or 
were they drawn to best utilize the classroom facilities for 
all grades!

The Court: Mr. Aronson, they were drawn before 
the defendant’s knew which grades would be desegre­
gated, if that will help you on this point.

They didn’t know which grades would come under

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702

the Court’s order of desegregation when these very 
lines were established by them.

Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, the point that I ’m in­
quiring into at this time is that defendants have 
taken the position that these lines were the most 
utilitarian lines that they could conceive of, all things 
considered. Yet their answers to the interrogatories 
indicate that approximately 20 per cent of the chil­
dren living in Myrtle Hall, i.e., the fifth and sixth 
grades, reside in a different zone than where Myrtle

—8 5 -
Hall is found; that approximately 33 per cent of the 
children attending the Clark School attend or live 
in zones other than where they are attending, and 
that approximately 5 per cent—

The Witness: Thirty-three?
That figure is perhaps incorrect.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Thirty-three per cent? A. I  expect so.
Q. A hundred and five versus a hundred and forty-seven.

Maybe I ’m a little hit off.

Mr. Luckett: Twenty-five. He said approximately 
25.

Mr. Aronson: Well, I ’m reading the answers to 
the interrogatories now and the answers to the inter­
rogatories say that 105 children attending the—

The Witness: A hundred and five. It should be 
115.

I  think that’s clerical.

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703

H ea r in g  o f  N o v em b er  15} 1965

Gycelle Tynes—for Defendants—Gross 

By Mr. A ronson:

Q. Well, are there any other corrections you would like 
to make?

Let me let you review your answers to the interroga-
— 86—

tories.
I  am relying on the information that you, the defendants, 

have sworn to and submitted to this Court, and I draw your 
attention to the figure 147— A. That’s correct.

Q. —attending Eliza Clark, on Page 2, in Answer Num­
ber I  (b), and to that figure we then refer to Page 3 of the 
answers to interrogatories, where the answer is:

“White elementary school children residing in Zone 
E-l-C and attending Eliza Clark number approxi­
mately 105. The other pupils now attending Eliza 
Clark reside in Zone E-3-A with the exception of a few 
fifth and sixth-graders who reside in Zones E-l-A or 
E-l-B .”

My point is that, of the 147 children presently attending 
the Eliza Clark School, 42 of them don’t live in the zone. 
A. That’s approximately correct.

We’ll let this figure stand, though. One hundred and five, 
I  think, is 115. I t ’s close enough.

Q. All right.
Then the point that I ’m trying to make, and what I  would 

like you to comment on, Mr. Tynes, is where you have got
—87—

fully one third of the students attending this school from 
somewheres out of its zone, i.e., the Clark School, where 
you have—



704

And the reason stated in the answers to the interroga­
tories is to better utilize available classrooms.

All right. With respect to the Riverton School in Zone 
E-2, you state that 461 attend Riverton and they live in the 
zone with the exception of one section that resides in E-2-A, 
and they’re being housed in Riverton in order to better 
utilize classroom facilities, and I  take it the average size 
of the Class in Riverton, which I  think is about 30. So, 
that’s about 8 per cent live out of the district.

And then we move over to E -l-B — A. Stop there a 
minute, and here in Riverton let’s point out one thing there.

Q. Sure. A. Could we do so?
Q. Please do. A. We had thought last spring that we 

would seek permission of the Court this past summer to 
drop the boundary line separating E-2-A and E-2-B at the 
top, at the north, from Fifth Street to Sixth Street in order 
to shift some 60 pupils over to Riverton, which had 18 class-

— 88-

rooms. However, we were still in court. We had the hear­
ing in April. *WA did not get the order until late, about the 
11th or 12th of August. Consequently, we did not make that 
request. We simply waited for the order to come out. We 
didn’t know what it would contain. Therefore, in order to 
utilize the extra classrooms at Riverton, we transferred one 
section of sixth-graders this year which live north of the 
highway in the Booker T. Washington zone, E-2-A, to 
Riverton.

Now, a year hence, when Grades 5 and 6 have come under 
the Court order, we would no longer have that discretionary 
authority. Consequently, we would have to come to the 
Court, if it doesn’t grant up flexibility under our subdis­
tricts, to move this line in order to equalize populations be­
tween the two zones, two attendance zones.

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705

You see, of course, here again the chief reason that we 
had in mind, one of the chief ones, in seeking to have these 
subdistricts established was to grant to the School Board 
this flexibility. It doesn’t have it now, or at least if it has 
it it’s not clear to us. We wouldn’t exercise it, in other 
words, unless the Court granted it clearly.

—89—
Q. Well— A. That was simply an administrative edu­

cational technique there to utilize facilities and to prevent 
one center from becoming slightly crowded where we’d have 
three classrooms vacant in another.

Q. When did you plan this? A. It was planned last 
spring, of course, to utilize it then.

Population has changed. This Riverton zone—
Q. No. I  just asked a simple question. When did you 

plan it, Mr. Tynes? Last spring? A. Plan which now? 
The subdistricts?

Q. That the one section that technically lives in 2-A would 
go to school in 2-B? A. Well, now, the actual planning did 
not come until the fact was established when children actu­
ally enrolled in September. We found that we had quite a 
number of children in Subdistrict E-2, primarily in E-2-B, 
Zone E-2-B, who were attending school out of the district 
in prior years, and now, under the nontransfer basis, of 
course, those children had to stay at home. Consequently, 
that has modified our enrollment pattern somewhat in an 
unpredictable way. We counted children who attended else­
where. Of course, we were able to get those figures fairly

— 90—

accurately, but not exactly so. Consequently, we did not 
make this change until school actually opened. We picked 
up a teacher with her class and just shifted her over there,

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706

which, of course, was not wise and which we hated to do, 
but we would have had a crowded condition otherwise.

Q. Sure. A. It would have been the lesser of two evils.
Q. I  understand. A. Surely.
Q. I  am just trying to get the background. A. Surely.
Q. So, in other words, you took a fifth grade class with 

a teacher— A. Sixth.
Q. Excuse me. A. Sixth grade.
Q. Excuse me.
You took a sixth grade class with a teacher and moved 

her and that sixth grade class from E-2-A to E-2-B? A. 
Right.

Q. Now, let me ask about one other situation— A. Pos­
sibly we should give one additional bit of information there,

- 9 1 -
sir, to the Court.

We had a statute which created considerable confusion, 
which came about in July of ’65, affecting quite a few chil­
dren, some white, but primarily Negro,—I ’d say 90 per cent 
Negro children—concerning pupils whose parents reside 
outside the State of Mississippi. The legislature passed 
that statute in the early part of July. That created con­
siderable confusion. We perhaps had 200 children at least 
who were affected by it. Many had to have adoptive papers 
taken out for them. Others had to establish legal guardian­
ship and the like. Some went back to their parents in vari­
ous cities and states and out of state elsewhere. Therefore, 
we had a very fluid situation facing us this year—not 
merely the Court’s order here, but this new statute here in 
the state. It was, therefore, very difficult for the school ad­
ministrators to plan minutely and exactly just the popula­
tion which each center would serve this fall. It was a very, 
very nebulous situation—

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707

Q. In can appreciate that. A. —and quite unusual.
Q. I  can appreciate that.
Now, going over to Zone E-l-A, you state—
We’re looking at E-l-A and E-l-B.

—9 2 -
Now, you say the Negro elementary school children resid­

ing in Zone E-l-B  and attending Myrtle Hall number 468.
You said— A. That includes two sections now—
Q. Bight. A. —from E-l-A.
Q. Right.
That is what I want to get to. A. A fifth section and a 

sixth section.
Q. Right.
Now, of those 468, all but approximately 60,— A. Right.
Q. —figuring 30 per class, live in E-l-B? A. Right.
Q. And the 60 moved in from E-l-A from, the fifth and 

sixth grade, the two sections.
Now, did this come about in the same way that this one 

came about? A. Chiefly pressure of secondary population.
We have this planned junior high school in the southwest 

quadrant there.
If  you look just below the Riverton Elementary School—

—9 3 -
No. That’s at Booker T.
The one over here.
Q. Oh. A. Right.
We have the projected junior high school in that particu­

lar location. We have the site purchased, architects work­
ing on plans at present.

Now, we have had a considerable increase in secondary 
enrollment this year. The holding power of the schools 
plus other factors entered in. Therefore, at the Higgins 
Junior High School way in the southeast quadrant, with the

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708

George Oliver Elementary School 18 classrooms located 
right nest to it, the administrators saw the feasibility of 
emptying several classrooms at Oliver in order to take care 
of some of the seventh-grade overflow at Higgins or crowd­
ing. Consequently, we cleared three or four classrooms, but 
we had one or two vacant. We shifted two more sections to 
Hall in order to ease that condition and equalize there 
that condition of temporary crowding at the secondary level.

Q. I  see.
And when did that take place! A. That took place at 

the beginning of this school year.
—94—

Q. I  see.
And what you did was, in the same fashion, you moved 

the teacher and her class then— A. Eight.
Q. —from one to the other! A. She just picked up with 

her group and transferred, which again was not 100 per cent 
desirable educationally, but it was the lesser of two evils.

Q. The reason I  ask these questions: It seems that you’ve 
done an extensive amount of inquiry into the number of 
students within each district for the purpose of planning. 
Now, here you’ve gone— A. Well, I ’d have to say also, in 
all honesty, and for the purpose of answering interroga­
tories, of course, naturally this counting of pupils is a re­
quirement, is a continuous function, all the time. It goes on.

Q. Right. A. Surely.
Q. My point is : Being in such good control of the num­

bers of people, I ’m somewhat astounded that you had to 
move 60 students just before school started to another 
school out of their zone after you had very meticulously 
drawn zones. A. We had plenty of room for these chil-

—95—
dren at Oliver, plus empty classrooms. The crowding does

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709

not come at the elementary level. We have taken care of 
that with our construction, but where we have added 36, 38 
elementary classrooms in the last three years for elemen­
tary children we have added perhaps no more than eight 
or 10 at the secondary level. Consequently, we have some 
temporary crowding at the secondary level.

Q. Now, let me— A. That is true with the round sys­
tem, and is very ample.

Q. Fine.
Let me ask this: Do you remember when you contem­

plated and when you informed the students and teachers 
they would be moving from one zone to the other zone? 
A. Well, of course, this condition actually entered the pic­
ture—that’s true over here as well—even in the spring- 
teachers were told, and that this shifting may have to come. 
We couldn’t say that it would occur, but even in the spring 
at contract signing time we had to tell them that; “These 
conditions loom on the horizon and we may have to do these 
things.” Of course, we did not do them until we had to,—

—96—
Q. Sure. A. —which was when the school opened.
Q. When school opened.
And, as you testified a few moments ago, you had so 

many children here, for instance,— A. Right.
Q. —you had to tell the children and the teacher that 

they move to this one? A. One teacher move there with 
her section.

Q. And two— A. And two teachers—
Q. —with her pupils moved there? A. Moved there-, 

right.
Q. All right.
Now, one last short line of inquiry with respect to this 

plan: I have read the record and I ’m still unclear as to

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710

what considerations led to the establishment of the bound­
ary, the easternmost boundary, of E-l-C and the southern­
most boundary of E-l-C. In other words, what considera­
tions did you give rise to to create E-l-C? A. Of course, 
we testified extensively concerning that in August 1964. 
Of course, the record will point that out, but we were again 
utilizing facilities of the schools. We were using old,

—97—
traditional subdivision lines. We were looking after safety 
factors and the like. I t ’s a general criteria. However, 
those no longer prevail since the Court referred to that 
line as being somewhat tenuous or a tortuous one and, 
of course, we are here now to wipe it out—

Q. Bight. A. —or obliterate it.
Q. Let me ask this, and I don’t think this question was 

asked.
I  will ask just one last question about this.
Was race a consideration when you drew these lines? 

A. Bace is an incidental factor, but a year preceding that 
school, Eliza Clark, was completely occupied. In fact, 
three yaers ago we had to shift children away from that 
zone. The school became crowded. That’s before this com­
mercialization on Desoto occurred, before Desoto Avenue 
was opened on up to Florence Avenue and on to Friars 
Point Boad. After that condition occurred and commer­
cialization started in that zone, the population has de­
clined rapidly; but we were again utilizing the capacity 
of the school. It was a small one, just seven classrooms,

—98—
and, of course, holding to the more or less traditional 
boundary lines so far as Myrtle Hall was concerned, which, 
incidentally, largely followed racial lines, but not exclu­
sively. In the Myrtle Hall zone were many, many whites.

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711

Q. They are no longer there? A. That I  don’t know. 
If  they are there, the fifth and sixth-graders attend Eliza 
Clark. None in one to four.

Q. Have you given any transfers to any white persons 
living in E-l-B  in Grades 1 through 4? A. No.

Q. Since the desegregation plan has been put into effect, 
have you had a decrease in the number of students attend­
ing school in the grades that have been desegregated? 
A. Yes; we have. We have had some changes. We had 
some falling off of whites; not in the Negro pupils.

Q. Not in the Negroes? A. In the whites we have, 
whites and yellow pupils.

Q. Did you have any undue difficulties this last fall with 
the students that transferred from here to here—excuse 
me—from E-l-A to E-l-B  or from E-2-A to E-2-B? A. 
Well, of course, you have the matter of loyalties to schools, 
which is a factor.

Q. Sure. A. But I ’d say we did not have insurmount-
—99—

able difficulties.
Of course, we had prepared the community back in the 

spring that some shifts may have to occur, and, of course, 
some did, but, fortunately, not too many.

Q. But no one knew precisely who would be involved? 
A. Well, in general. Of course, when the Court order 
came out, we did know which grades it would be. Prior to 
that time we had to say, “If shifts occur, it will have to 
be in grades not affected by the Court order.”

Q. No. I am not talking about—
We’re talking about different things.
I ’m not talking about the white-Negro problem now. 

What I ’m talking about is the children, the one classroom

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712

of children that was changed from E-2-A to E-2-B this 
past September and the two classrooms— A. Yes.

Q. —of children that were changed from E-l-A— A. 
That’s what 1 was speaking to. I was speaking to that 
point; yes.

Q. Well, that— A. In fact, the only ones which we 
could transfer were the ones who would not be covered 
by the Court order. We could not transfer any pupil in

— 100-

Grades 1 to 4.
Q. Bight. A. But we did not know which grades other 

than Grades 1 and 2 and presumably 3 back in the spring.
Q. So, you prepared the community by telling them 

there would be some changes, but you— A. We told them 
in all probability there would be some changes if present 
population projections hold up. Of course, we couldn’t be 
certain there.

Q. How did you— A. We had considerable confusion.
Q. I  understand.
How did you prepare the community?
What steps did you engage in? A. Principals, teachers 

speaking to PTA and the like; the normal community 
contacts.

Q. And you also told the teachers involved— A. Oh, 
yes.

Q. —there may be change? A. It could be.
Q. And got their cooperation? A. It could be.
Q. Well, you testified it did, in fact, happen.

— 101—

You said when you talked to the teachers at contracting 
time in the spring you told them about the changes that 
may be taking place; is that not correct? A. Well, now,

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713

of course, we refer here specifically to these temporary 
crowdings. We told the teachers at Booker T. Washington 
that: “If  we are not able to move this line from Fifth 
Street to Sixth Street, we may have one case in which a 
teacher would have to transfer with her pupils.”

Now, the same is true over—
Q. Wait. Let’s stop there for a moment. A. Right.
Q. I f  you had, in fact, moved the line from Fifth Street 

to Sixth Street— A. We would have had no transfer, 
of course.

Q. But you would have had an influx— A. Surely.
Q. —of one class— A. Surely,
Q. —or approximately 30 people dispersed over four 

grades. Would that not have required a change in the 
teaching load over here!

In other words, you needed a teacher in one instance, 
but not in another instance!

— 102—

I ’m not— A. Well—
Q. That would include— A. We had three empty class­

rooms here at Riverton.
Q. But my point is this: I f  you had 30 children to 

relieve overcrowding here and sent them to Riverton, in 
Grades 1, 2, 3 and 4, which would have happened if you had 
moved the line down from Fifth Street to Sixth Street,—

Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. —then that would have been an increase on an aver­

age of seven children plus a class.
Now, the answers to your interrogatories indicate that 

the size of the classes at Riverton or the teacher-pupil 
ratio is 30.4 to one. With an increase of seven, that would 
have knocked the ratio up to 37, close to 38, to one, which

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714

would have been too high. A. No; not that. Fifteen 
teachers, see. Consequently, it would have jumped it pos­
sibly 32; somewhere around 32 or 3.

Q. I  see.
Because you have more in each section! A. Right

—103—
Q. I  see. A. Right.
Now, that would have necessitated one additional teacher, 

which in all probability would have been a new teacher to 
the school over here.

Q. Which you would have gone out and hired this Sep­
tember— A. Right.

Q. —or switched?
If  you had to relieve one teacher from here or it would 

have released a teacher at one level, would you have just 
switched her over? A. Well, the chances are we would 
have utilized all 16 teachers at Booker T. and employed 
one over at Riverton.

Q. All right.
Now, my question at this point is: Why did you not, 

seeing that this condition was coming about, submit a plan 
with a line down one block? A. Well, we started to, 
but there were so many issues before the Court we didn’t 
want to confuse it. At the same time, we planned to seek 
this relief through the use of subdistricts, to have this 
flexibility. In fact, that had been our intention from the 
beginning, but we realized we had not made it clear to

—104—
the Court.

Q. I see.
Now, you talked about community preparation. You 

said you talked to the teachers. You also had the principals

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715

talking to the PTA and there was the general attending 
publicity in the community, I  assume, that there may be 
this shift? A. Yes.

Q. Now, this Court’s opinion was published on August 
10th, and in this Court’s opinion there is some skepticism 
expressed with respect to Zone E-l-C, and in response 
to this Court’s opinion you have come in with a revised 
plan; is that not correct? A. That’s true.

Q. What, if any, efforts have you made to advise the 
community or prepare the community for changes that 
may take place in E-l-C? A. Well, the Court order, the 
essential of it, has been published in the papers. Of course, 
teachers have been apprised of it through bulletins from 
our office.

We have sought to make the whole picture clear to 
the community just as we know it. Of course, we can’t 
predict what will occur the second semester. We do not

—105
know.

Q. Have you talked to PTAs also? A. I  haven’t per­
sonally talked to the PTA. I  talked to the teachers, but 
have had to tell them just what we essentially covered in 
bulletins and in the newspapers, that these are the facts 
and we are required to do these things. We have sub­
mitted these plans. Now, what the pleasure of the Court 
will be, we don’t attempt to guess.

Q. I  understand that. I  am not suggesting that, but 
you have, in other words, taken some efforts to apprise the 
community of the change that will take place here; is that 
correct? A. We have—

Q. Of the fact that there will be a change in that zone? 
A. Well, we know there will be sometime. We have not

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716

sought to pinpoint the minute or the day, which we don’t 
know. In fact, we have sought to communicate to the 
teacher, principal, the facts. We have not engaged in 
suppositions, and even when questions were raised of an 
assumptious nature or supposition nature we have de­
clined to answer those because we cannot deal with specula­
tions.

Q. Are there any reports to your office of any turmoil
—106—

that took place when these classes switched from E-l-A  to 
E-l-B  and from E-2-A to E-2-B1 A. Well, we had a few 
parents, of course, which did not like it.

Q. And could you handle those all right! A. Ap­
parently so.

Q. Did they get bucked up to your office or were they 
handled at the local principal office! A. They were 
handled at the intermediate level.

Of course, you recognize, Mr. Counselor, there is a 
tremendous difference between transferring one class or 
a section—really, not a class but a section—from one 
school to another or two sections to another and com­
pletely consolidating two schools. There is a tremendous 
difference there. You don’t have a case here of where 
one principal’s duties have to be terminated or diverted 
or something else. In fact, your problems are quite dis­
similar.

Q. Well, let’s get into those.
Now, as far as the principal is concerned, you’re obli­

gated to pay that man for the year, aren’t you! A. Yes.
Q. So, whether or not he’s working in his present capacity 

or in some other capacity is somewhat irrelevant; the fact
—107—

is you have got to pay him! A. He’ll have to be paid.

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717

Q. So, if the Court should order that this plan of con­
solidation of E-l-B and E-l-C into a new E-l-B —if the 
Court should order this consolidation to take place in 
January, the financial position of the district is no dif­
ferent, is it?

You’re going to have to pay that man some consolida­
tion now or at a later date; right? A. Well, of course, 
we would have minimal services, if any, from one of the 
principals. The financial load would be the same, but the 
services rendered would be quite another picture.

Q. Do you question that you could find something for 
this man to do? A. Well, of course, that’s again specula­
tion or supposition. We have not dealt with that. The 
person, himself, would have to be, of course, agreeable to 
the change. We’d run into different questions and prob­
lems there, of course.

Q. Have you talked to these principals and told them 
that this may be coming about? A. I  have simply given 
them the facts.

—108—
Q. What facts have you given them? A. Well, we have 

given them the Court’s order of August 10th. We have 
given them the plan here which the School Board has 
proposed and the phasing out of one zone or the combining 
of the two zones, in which we have asked respectfully that 
this be consummated as of the end of the school year.

Q. Now, if you were to start planning immediately,— 
let’s assume for the purposes of discovering what your 
difficulties will be—if this Court should order today that 
the revised plan with respect to the consolidation of E-l-B 
and E-l-C were to be put into effect today,—I should say 
to be recognized today to be put into effect come the

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718

second semester—what difficulties do you think that you 
would encounter? A. Well, I  covered some of those par­
tially this morning earlier.

First, would be the principal situation to work out,
Secondly—
Q. All right. Let’s stop and go through them one by 

one.
With respect to the principal, at worst one principal

—109—
would no longer be a principal? A. Eight.

Q. You might have to pay him for a year? A. Eight,
The choice has to be made of one principal,—
Q. Eight. A. —which you can imagine what will hap­

pen. With two of them around, the other principal—and, 
too, the faculty recommended by that principal—you would 
immediately—well, you’d undermine anywhere from a 
morale of seven teachers all the way up to 16 teachers or 
17. Consequently, you would have at the very outset, 
whichever principal the School Board appointed to handle 
the situation—naturally, one would be left out, and, of 
course, a principal’s secretary, the community loyal to 
that one. You immediately have that kickback or boomer­
ang facing you right there.

This is a can’t-win proposition. In fact, if the consolida­
tion—

Q. What you’re talking about— A. —is made at the 
middle of the year, it’ll be impossible to prevent wide­
spread loss of pupil-teacher-community morale. The edu­
cation of the children will be hurt. It ’ll be hurt seriously.

— 110—

It will be impaired greatly.
Q. What have you done to avoid this?

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719

Have you talked to the people and told them that this 
is going to be coming about? A. We give nothing but 
facts. We don’t know—

Q. You knew— A. —when this will come about.
Q. When you knew that you were going to be combining 

or perhaps sending a grade to E-2-B from E-2-A, you 
didn’t know which grade it was going to be; yet you told 
this Court— A. Well, we knew—

Q. —that you went to the PTA— A. Yes.
Q. —and that you talked to the teachers and that every­

body was fully apprised that some change might take 
place, and they were adequately prepared for this change, 
and I  ask you: What have you done along similar lines 
to prepare the people for an even similar change involving 
more people and more teachers in E-l-C and E-l-B? A. 
we have talked with the principals and with the teachers, 
published the facts in the papers concerning where we

—1 1 1 -
are, but we’re not attempting to anticipate what this Court 
will do.

We’re saying that: “We know for a certainty that this 
district or these two zones will consolidate or something 
will happen by September 1 of ’66.”

These other things can occur, but what we don’t know.
Q. Did you— A. If  the Court does not accept this plan, 

we don’t know whether it will say, “Use this plan,” or tell 
the School Board to come up with another plan or what. 
Consequently, if we go out speculating, dealing in suppo­
sitions, rumors and the like, we’d stir up our community 
and never be able to get it calmed down this school year.

Q. Yet— A. Consequently, we have dealt with facts.
Q. All right.

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720

You told them the fact— A. Yes.
Q —that you asked this Court— A. Right.
Q. —to wait until next September? A. Right.

— 112—

Q. Did you also tell them the fact that the plaintiffs 
asked that this be expedited to January? A. Well, we 
told them that the present zones are under a temporary 
Court order giving them duration or life only through 
the first semester and that the Court will make some 
dispensation or some disposition of that situation the 
second semester.

We told them what we had requested, but what—
Q. Did you tell them also what the plaintiffs had re­

quested? A. No. That has come in recent days and I 
have not given that information to them.

Q. I  see. A. That’s very recent.
And, of course, we expected this hearing, and, of course, 

when something comes from it factually we’ll immediately 
communicate that; surely.

Q. Now, let’s get back to the community.
Now, you talk about loyalties and you talk about com­

motion, and I  wish that you’d be very specific.
Did you have any rioting when the change went from 

E-2-A to E-2-B? A. We have a fairly stable community,
—113—

considerably law-abiding. We have had no Watts area—
Q. I ’m not— A. —or Greenville, Alabama, demonstra­

tion of that sort. Consequently, we have a history here 
of a law-abiding people, all citizens. Consequently, our 
parents have considerable confidence in the School Board, 
the school system, and in general we, of course, have en­
joyed good relations with them. Of course, if the School

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721

Board should do something completely out of character, 
we couldn’t predict then just what would occur.

Q. All right.
Now, you say that you have got a rather sensible com­

munity here. Have there been a minimum of demonstra­
tions here! A. That’s true; yes.

Q. A minimum of unrest! A. Yes.
Q. And the maximum amount of respect for the School 

Board, do you feel! A. I  think there has been.
Q. So that if the School Board were told to do some­

thing by this Court then I take it that your very sensible
— l i d -

community would react by knowing that the School Board 
had no choice; is that correct! A. Of course, we would 
do our best to lead it through any situation which any 
court should put upon our shoulders, but at the same time 
even desegregation, itself, has not posed this type of 
problem which we have right here, in which we’re con­
solidating two schools and in something not entirely re­
lated to desegregation. Actually, this thing right here 
that we are proposing, even though at the instruction of the 
Court, to work out some sort of change in this boundary 
—actually, our chief purposes in coming here are from 
educational and administrative or financial reasons—

Q. But let’s— A. —to eliminate a situation—
Q. Let’s be realistic. A. —which is festering.
Q. Let’s be realistic.
Isn’t it true, sir, one of the factors involved is that this 

will be the first time in Clarksclale that there is a significant 
mixing of the races if this takes place!

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722

Isn’t that true? A. Well, that’s not so consequential.
—115—

Here in Riverton—we had dozens of white children in 
there. This problem is no different from what we had—

Q. You had dozens of white children attending the Negro 
school? A. No. That lived in the zone.

Q. No. I  am talking about attending schools. I am 
not talking about living. People have lived there and 
they’ll continue to live there, or they may not continue to 
live there. A. Yes.

Q. What I ’m asking you is: Will this not present the 
first meaningful or first large-scale potential desegregated 
system in Clarksdale? A. Well, under the situation there 
which has racial overtone, we would encounter some deseg­
regation of grades not yet covered by the Court’s order. 
Consequently, if the School Board voluntarily entered into 
that, it, of course, would have tremendous reaction.

Q. Sure.
And you’ve got to be cautious of this reaction,— A. 

Surely.
Q. —don’t you? A. Surely.

— 116—
Q. Because, isn’t it a fact, if the city and the people in 

the city knew that you voluntarily agreed to bring about 
all this mixing in January you’d have problems, wouldn’t 
you? A. Surely.

Q. So, there is—
I mean let’s be honest. This is a desegregation suit and 

these are racial considerations and there’s no reason to hide 
from it. A. But a chief reason we’re phasing out one 
school center as such is a financial reason.

We have a declining population, a commercialization of 
a zone, and we can no longer justify the administrative cost

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723

of operating an attendance center at that zone or in that 
zone.

Q. So, what you’re saying is that, while there are very 
good reasons to combine all three of them, jumping in would 
not be wise because there is the racial overtone; isn’t that 
right? A. Well, of course, that’s a problem; but if all the 
children in both zones were of the same race the problem 
would still be there, and approximately the same magni­
tude, which it would be with different races.

—117—
Oh, you don’t think, then, that the fact that you have got 

100 or 105 white children and some 460 Negro children or 
four-to-one Negro to white would have any consequences in 
that area? A. That’s not the major consideration which 
the Board, of course, is facing here; no.

Q. I  see.
There are pure administrative difficulties? A. That’s an 

overwhelming issue.
Q. All right.
Let’s get into the administrative difficulties now.
First, we talked about turmoil. Now we’re talking about 

administrative difficulties.
What are the administrative difficulties? A. Well, tur­

moil, of course, is part and parcel of those.
This matter here of working out with principals, secre­

taries, teachers just assignments and the like which they 
have not contracted to do. That’s particularly a problem in 
itself.

Teachers may be compliant. They may be congenial. 
They may not.

—118—
If we should lose a substantial number of these teachers, 

we’d be hard put at this season of the year to staff these 
positions.

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724

Of course, this is outside the confines of this lawsuit, but 
we have now another employing agency in the community, 
our local Community Action Program, which is looking to 
the schools of Clarksdale to secure its staff. We’re having 
great difficulty at the moment by being raided by this agency 
at salaries, of course, completely foreign and unrealistic to 
normal standards for professional teachers in this com­
munity.

Now, for some of these vacancies that have occurred,— 
we have had only three or four thus far the school year— 
it has taken the principal a solid calendar month to find a 
single replacement. Therefore, if we should lose any sub­
stantial number of teachers,—by that, I  mean two or three 
—this school system would be crippled for this school year 
in a hurry. In fact, we can get crippled by being raided if 
this Community Action Program grows very much, as it’s 
now projected, with almost limitless resources and funds. 
Our school system here is going to be sadly crippled.

Of course, that’s outside the confines of this case,—
—119—

Q. I ’d agree with you. A. —but we have this pressing 
problem and one which gives our school administrators in­
creasing concern and anxiety.

Q. Let’s get back to the case.
You’ve got this tremendous problem. Is this your biggest 

fear, then, a walkout of teachers! A. Well, that’s just part 
of it, part of the total picture.

Q. And what are— A. Of course, I ’d say—I’d have to 
say this—our biggest concern is what will happen to the 
education of boys and girls. That’s a number one issue.

Q. Well, something I ’m not clear on: Really, we’re talk­
ing about Grades 1 and 2 in E-l-B  and E-l-C going to 
E-l-C ; right? A. That’s true.

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725

Q. Now, Grades 1 and 2 could be picked up as a compact 
unit with their teacher and moved from here to here, which 
you have testified so freely is a mere three and one-half 
blocks,— A. Yes.

— 120—

Q. —and, indeed, I  would submit would be closer, many 
of them, to this school, or as many would be closer to this 
school— A. True.

Q. —as are closer to this school. A. True.
Q. Then you would lift up as packages Grades 3, 4, 5 

and 6 with their teacher and send them down to this school; 
is that not correct! A. Well, no; it wouldn’t work out that 
way.

Q. Wiry! A. Well, you want to look at your composite 
population, balance your teacher-pupil loads as completely 
as possible.

If  a teacher moved in here and she had 27 pupils and 
another had 30, you’d get frictions and confusions and the 
like there, the chances are, especially in a situation of that 
caliber.

Q. Well, do you mind— A. Of course, you would want 
to keep your transfers down to the minimum, surely.

Q. Well, you have got Eliza Clark with 30.2 average stu­
dents in the class; you’ve got Myrtle Hall with 29.8, or .4

— 121—

child difference. A. Yes.
Q. Now, we’re not, I  take it—
And I  think you have testified— A. Well, of course—
Q. —you are very proud of the fact that there isn’t a 

disparity any more— A. Yes.
Q. —and that the teacher-pupil ratio is pretty close to­

gether; right! A. Quite close.

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726

Q. So, let me just ask you this simple question— A. Let 
me—

I think I  can unconfuse you right here.
Q. Okay. A. We have five teachers at Eliza Clark, six 

grades. Consequently, we have a broken grade. Therefore, 
in shifting to a consolidation, you’d have to take such fac­
tors as that one in mind.

Q. Repeat that. I ’m not quite sure what you mean by— 
A. If  you have five teachers teaching six grades, you have 
one grade which is divided. Consequently, we’d have a

- 122-

problem of that character which would arise, which would 
simply entail a considerable transferring, reassigning and 
the like. You couldn’t just pick up A and move to B and B 
to A in toto. We’d like it to be that way, but it won’t quite 
work that way.

Q. Let’s—

The Court: You have five classroom teachers 
teaching six grades—

The Witness: That’s true; yes, sir.
The Court: —at Eliza Clark1?
The Witness: Yes, sir.

By Mr. A ronson :

Q. Which is the double class? A. That’s third grade, if 
I recall.

Q. Third? A. Third grade there is apportioned out.
Q. So that some third-graders are in the fourth grade 

class and some third-graders are in the second grade class? 
A. Possibly. I won’t say just two grades. Several teachers 
teaching other grades teach this third grade also, a portion 
of them.

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727

Q. Could you acquaint yourself with that over the lunch
- 1 2 3 -

recess, the facts of that? A. Well, I  have it pretty clearly 
in mind now.

The Court: Do they—

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  wondered if you—

The Court: Excuse me just a minute.
Do they have a separate home room?
They are grouped together as third-graders?
The Witness: They have, of course, their entity 

or identity as such, hut different teachers teach them. 
The Court: I  understand.
Are they grouped separately as third-graders in a 

separate classroom and do the teachers come to that 
classroom and teach them in their own room?

The Witness: That’s true primarily, with possibly 
one or two exceptions in which a group will go to the 
teacher’s classroom, but in some cases a teacher 
comes to the classroom.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. I  wonder if you could find out over the noon hour— 
and I  think this is very relevant to the precise point that 
we’re hitting in this area—the answers to the following 
questions:

—1 2 4 -
How many pupils there are in each class by grade at both 

the Hall School and the Clark School. A. I  have that be­
fore me.

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728

Q. You’ve got that? A. Yes.
Q. In each class? A. Yes.
Q. So, then you could answer for the third grade.
Then if you could also find out for us— A. Nineteen 

pupils.
Q. Are in the third grade ? A. Yes.
Q. I  wondered if you could find out a precise answer to 

the Court’s question about how those children are taught. 
Do they, in fact, go to other grades; and, if so, which ones, 
or do teachers, in fact, some to the 19, and if teachers, in 
fact, come to the 19 who takes care of their classes while 
they are gone? In other words, how does it work, if you 
could find that out for us? A. Well, I  have a pretty close 
picture of that at present.

Q. Well, could you tell us about it? A. Oh, surely.
—125—

The principal, secretary and teachers—in fact, say a 
teacher of the fifth grade at a certain point will shift to the 
third grade; a principal or secretary will supervise her 
group while she’s down in the third grade. That is worked 
out throughout the day involving virtually all of the five 
teachers. In fact, to my knowledge, it will involve some­
where between three and five, with secretary and principal 
rotating in. They simply catch a group, supervise them, at 
some study-time activity. The actual teaching is done by 
five classroom teachers, but supervision will be done of a 
teacher’s group who is down working with the third grade.

Q. I  see.
So, the third grade is kept as a contiguous unit during 

the day? A. Right.
Q. It has a home room,— A. Right.
Q. —as you indicated in response to the Court’s ques­

tion? A. Right.

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729

H ea r in g  o f  N o v em b er  15, 1965

Gycelle Tynes—for Defendants-—Cross 

Q. I  see.
—126—

The Court: Court is in recess until 2 o’clock.

(Thereupon, at 12 noon, the Court recessed until
2 p. m.)

—127—
A fternoon S ession

(The Court reconvened and the hearing was continued 
at 2 p. m.)

The Court: You may be seated.
All right, Mr. Aronson. You may proceed.
Mr. Aronson: Thank you, sir.

Gycelle T yn es, a witness called by and in behalf of the 
defendants, resumed the stand and, having been previously 
duly sworn, testified fu rth er as follow s:

Cross Examination by Mr. Aronson (Continued):

Q. We left off just before lunch discussing the situation 
with respect to the Hall School and the— A. Clark.

Q. —Clark School, and most particularly the situation 
in the Clark School of five teachers for six classes, and I  
wonder if we could refer back now, and, as I  understand it, 
you had a breakdown. I wondered if we might use this 
breakdown.

Now, in the Hall School this is the breakdown by classes
—128—

for each of the six grades? A. Right.
Q. In Grade 1 we have 83 students? A. Yes.



730

Q, Anri how many teachers? A. Three.
Q. In Grade 2—71 students? A. Two teachers.
Q. Two teachers. Grade 3? A. Two teachers.
Q. For 64 students? A. Yes.
Q. Grade 4? A. Two teachers.
Q. For 70 students? A. Yes.
Q. Grade 5? A. Three teachers.
Q. For 95 students? A. Yes.
Q. And Grade 6—105 students? A. Three teachers.

—129—
Q. Three teachers. Okay. Now, over at the Clark School, 

Grade 1 with 27 pupils, one teacher? A. Eight.
Q. And Grade 2 with 28 pupils, one teacher? A. Eight,
Q. Grade 3 with 19 students? A. No teacher. Floating 

situation.
Q. Grade 4 with 25 students? A. One teacher.
Q. Grade 5 with 29? A. One teacher.
Q. And Grade 6 with 22? A. One teacher.
Q. Now, when you figured out in answer to the interroga­

tories the teacher-pupil ratio, you added up all of the chil­
dren in the Eliza Clark School and divided it by the num­
ber of teachers? A. Five teachers.

Q. By the five? A. Yes.
Q. But in reality they’re all very small classes? A. 

True.
—130—

Q. You just have a straight— You have a very few num­
ber of teachers. The largest class you have there is 29, 
and it drops down to 19? A. True. Of course, 19 have to 
be absorbed by five.

Q. I ’m sorry, sir. A. Nineteen pupils have to be ab­
sorbed by five teachers.

Q. Eight. A. Surely.

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731

Q. May I  look at this? A. Surely.
Q. I ’m not trying to take your papers from you. Is the 

principal of the Clark School— Again this is the school 
that’s located in E-l-C? A. Eight.

Q. Presently constituted E-l-C f A. Eight.
Q. Now, is the principal a qualified teacher? A. Surely. 

Principals have to be qualified teachers before they can be 
considered for principalships.

—131—
Q. And how long has he been a principal? A. I  don’t 

know how many years. Six years since I  have been in the 
system.

Q. And he’s been a principal since you arrived? A. Yes.
Q. And— A. Plus some years before.
Q. I  see. And the principal of Hall School? A. Six 

years to my certain knowledge, but some years prior.
Q. Now, your testimony was that you weren’t quite cer­

tain—there was a floating situation, and I  would like to go 
back just momentarily to this third grade, which has no 
teacher.

Now, at different periods in the day is it my understand­
ing the other five teachers come in and teach them and the 
19 pupils stay stationary within their room throughout 
the day? A. I think that’s correct. I  couldn’t say that 
all five teachers come and teach, but the majority would; 
possibly three or four.

Q. In your best educational judgment, is that a good
- 1 3 2 -

way to run a class? A. It ’s not preferable, of course; no.
Q. And, in fact, the pupils-per-teacher ratios are some­

what inaccurate, are they not? A. No.
Q. And— A. Perfectly accurate.
Q. "Well, if you look at these, each of these teachers’ 

load, he has primary responsibility— I ’m talking about each 
of the five teachers— A. Surely.

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732

Q. —in the Clark School. He has a primary responsibil­
ity, the first grade teacher, for 27 students; the second 
grade teacher for 28 students; the fourth grade teacher 
for 25 students; the fifth grade teacher for 29 students, 
and the sixth grade teacher for 22 students? A. Plus five 
teachers for 19—

Q. Well, then, it’s either way out of whack because you 
either add 19 in to their normal responsibilities and say 
that each of these teachers is responsible for his home 
room plus 19, which is a pretty strange situation, or some­
how another you take recognition of the specific situation

—133—
here, but it’s not—I don’t think—and I  would like your 
testimony as to whether or not you think—it’s accurate 
to add this all up and divide by five as if these 19 were 
distributed throughout the five. A. Statistically and abso­
lutely accurate.

Q. All right. I appreciate this opportunity to have 
cleared it up.

If  these were to be combined now at mid-term, under 
your proposed plan, I ’d like to ask you some questions, 
under such a combination, with respect to your response 
or your justifications for putting it off as set out in this 
plan.

Now, you start out by saying—I refer to Page 8 of the 
revised plan filed by the defendants, and I quote:

“The consolidation of the Eliza Clark Elementary 
School and Myrtle Hall Elementary School will pre­
sent many and serious difficulties for the pupils, 
teachers and administrators involved. A large per­
centage of the pupils involved will be required to 
leave the school buildings to which they have become

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733

accustomed and enter those to which they are 
strangers.”

Now, let’s start with that. Is that a very big problem!
—134—

A. Considerable.
Q. You’d figure that as considerable— A. Surely would.
Q. —to go to one school rather than another one three 

and a half blocks away? A. Yes.
Q. Now, I  noticed when we talked about the changes of 

the two classes in Zone E-l-A to E-l-B  and the one class 
from Zone E-2-A to E-2-B, which you did rather hurriedly 
this past September, there was no consideration of this. 
A. Well, we—

Q. How do you distinguish this situation? A. No one 
has said there was no consideration. We said it was a 
lesser of several evils, and it was not the most desirable 
thing, but under the circumstances it was a solution to the 
problem at hand.

Q. But you, as a school administrator, view as a very 
serious proposition the fact that students would have 
difficulty getting accustomed to one school as opposed to 
another one? A. Of course, what we are doing here is 
simply eliminating a school, paralleling in my professional 
experience—

—135—
Mississippi has had a vast consolidation movement. In 

fact, perhaps no state in the union has paralleled the work 
which Mississippi has done in the past 12 or 15 years in 
consolidation.

Now, to my knowledge, no two schools anywhere in any 
school district have been consolidated during the active 
school year, in the midst of it. It simply isn’t done that way.

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734

Q. How many school districts— A. I  know of no school 
anywhere which has undergone such a combination.

Q. There are 82 counties in this state. How many of these 
counties do you have intimate knowledge of? A. Well, I 
have worked in perhaps six counties. I  have, due to certain 
functions which I  carry out, fairly intimate knowledge of 
the whole situation.

Q. All right.
You consider yourself an expert on the educational sys­

tem within the whole state? A. Well—
Q. Let’s talk about the consolidation—

Mr. Luckett: Let him answer the question.
—136—

The Witness: May I  answer the question?
The Court: Let him answer the question.
The Witness: I  am Chairman of the Southern 

Association committee, committee of the Southern 
Association, which supervises all member schools in 
Mississippi, and now there are some 120 high schools 
having classification.

I ’m a member, committee member, of the Com­
mittee on Elementary Education of the Southern 
Association, which in turn looks after the members 
of the Southern Association of Schools of Missis­
sippi.

At present I  hold those two positions, one at the 
high school level, one at the elementary.

Only one other superintendent in the South—and 
he’s from Virginia—holds two similar positions.

Now, with those two positions, working intimately 
and with our Secretary, with other committee mem­
bers, 1 naturally have to keep a very close super­

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735

visory viewpoint of our elementary and secondary 
schools.

I  couldn’t say I  know intimately the details of 
every county, but I  am reasonably well informed 
on the state as a whole, especially during this period 
of consolidation.

Q. Well, I ’m aware of some, and I  would like to ask you 
some questions as an expert in this area.

—137—
I ’d like to ask you: Are you familiar with the consoli­

dation that took place in the Sharkey-Issaquena District? 
A. Fairly well so.

Q. And are you familiar with when this took place? A. 
Yes.

Q. When did that take place? A. Sharkey-Issaquena is 
a line situation in which two counties, of course—

Issaquena has not had much of a school system, hardly 
any schools at all, and now pursuant to the general legis­
lation enacted in an extraordinary session in December 
1953 there’s authority by which this line arrangement was 
set up.

Now, of course, I ’m not sure this bears on this case 
right here, but I ’ll answer this: Pursuant to that general 
enabling legislation, which, of course, had to come into 
effect by July 1, ’57, all the school districts in this state 
had to complete a reorganization, and now it was close to 
the end of that time when the Sharkey-Issaquena situation 
was worked out.

There have been several situations—Pontotoc County; 
Lafayette County; two or three other counties—which have

—138—
been slow in meeting that July 1, 1957 deadline. In fact,

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736

some have not entirely implemented the program since 
that date.

Q. Well, I  would like to ask you some questions about 
the difficulties the systems have had with rather abrupt 
changes.

Now, I would like to ask you—
You can start with Sharkey-Issaquena, which I am rea­

sonably familiar with, and I  am sure, as you have testified, 
you have some knowledge— A. Some knowledge; yes.

Q. —about the interrelationship.
What problems were involved with the somewhat sig­

nificant shift of pupils this last September?

Mr. Luckett: I object, if your Honor please.
This is going very far afield with respect to the 

revised plan, with respect to these two schools in 
the southeast quadrant of the Clarksdale Municipal 
Separate School District, and I  see no necessity for 
trying this as a state-wide suit. I  think it’s getting 
into matters that might be quite interesting but 
quite irrelevant so far as we’re concerned.

The Court: What is your purpose of this line of
- 1 3 9 -

questioning?
Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, the witness has testi­

fied that he knows of no district that he’s aware of 
where consolidation of any sort has taken place be­
tween semesters. On the other hand, he has stated 
that he is very familiar with the consolidations that 
have taken place in the state. I  am familiar with 
several consolidations that have taken place on very 
quick notice, as short as one and two weeks, and—

The Court: In the middle of a school year?

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737

Mr. Aronson: Well, not in the middle of a school 
year, but in comparable circumstances where the 
order has come one week before school started, not­
withstanding the fact that everyone has registered 
at different schools.

The Court: I  doubt its relevance here for this 
reason: This witness’s preoccupation and concern 
with the problems incident to merging these two 
districts, attendance zones, into one in the middle 
of a school year is the reorientation and the reloca­
tion and the rearrangement of teacher-pupil rela­
tionships and pupil-building and grounds relation­
ships twice in one school year rather than once, 
which is considered the normal every year.

I  think this is his principal concern, and I doubt 
the—

— 140—

Mr. Aronson: All right, your Honor.
The Court: Well, necessarily, at the beginning of 

every school year there’s going to be a reorienta­
tion of a certain degree, even if the system is un­
changed entirely, a moving of children from one 
grade to another, the establishment of teacher-pupil 
relationships, perhaps the moving to a new school 
building as the child advances in the school system.

But I  may have misunderstood him. I  thought the 
doubling up of this in the middle of the school year 
and his concern about the effect it would have on 
the pupils, themselves, was his primary concern 
about why the proposed merger shouldn’t take place 
until the beginning of the school year next fall.

I don’t want to unduly limit you, but I  can’t see—
Mr. Aronson: All right.

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738

The Court: —anything comparable in the Issa- 
quena-Sharkey County matter where apparently, 
from your question and from your statement, it took 
effect at the beginning of a school year. Therefore, 
the teachers and the pupils had only one period of 
orientation to get accustomed to the change.

—141—
Mr. Aronson: Your Honor, another situation that 

this Court is aware of is the West Point situation, 
and in West Point they reopened registration after 
nine weeks and let pupils change, and I  can cite 
seven, perhaps more, seven off the top of my head, 
school districts that after the nine-week period have 
had a reregistration of students going to different 
schools and in a far more complicated context. In­
deed, in Canton one week after school started, pur­
suant to an order of Judge Cox, they lifted up 
buildings and moved them five miles to a different 
site.

My only point in going into this is to show that 
this is a rather simple move, and I ’ll let the record 
rest at this point on this issue and just ask him more 
questions about Clarksdale.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Aronson: I ’m not trying to unduly burden 

the record, your Honor, but I ’m very, very con­
cerned, frankly, about defendants offering as an 
excuse for changing or not being able to change for 
a year a line which I  think is rather clearly imper­
missibly drawn, and I ’ll make the record as brief as 
I can. I ’m sorry for unduly burdening it.

The Court: All right. Go ahead, sir.

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739

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—142—
By Mr. Aronson :

Q. Let’s go back to the revised plan, and I ’d like to ask 
you some questions then about your specific statements.

You say:

“A large precentage of the pupils involved will 
be required to leave the school buildings to which 
they have become accustomed and enter those to 
which they are strangers.”

If  they do it this fall rather than at this time, what dif­
ference—

Excuse me.
If  they do it, change, in January rather than this com­

ing September, what difference will there be with respect 
to orientation? A. It simply doubles a problem that is 
normally present.

Some loss of motion will occur at the beginning of a 
year, but two weeks in June, two weeks in August, plus 
a three-day workshop will minimize, of course, mitigate 
these conditions which normally would cause this lost 
motion; and now if we come in the middle of the year, 
come again with all of this reassignment, reorientation and 
the like, then we, of course, not only duplicate that lost

—1 4 3 -
motion, but actually we aggravate the situation by not 
having time in order to plan for this new orientation.

Q. Well— A. Now—
Q. Excuse me. A. I  was going to say actually it doesn’t 

just double the loss. It does far more than that.
Q. I see.



740

Now, all students presently attending the Hall School, 
the Myrtle Hall School, attended the Hall School the year 
before, except for first-graders and those which were in­
troduced to the school by the Board’s order of sending 
over a section of the fifth and a section of the sixth grade; 
right? A. Substantially so. Of course, some pupils move 
in; some move out. You have that constantly.

Q. But, taking the over-all view of the district, aside 
from those few that may have moved in and moved out, 
do you have percentage rates, of attrition in the district 
that you can give us? A. No, but we have a fairly con­
siderable turnover of students, of transferring in and out. 
It ’s constant.

— 144—

Q. It’s constant? A. It’s constant. Every month we 
have that.

Q. How many would you estimate per month? A. I 
would say in the years as a whole frequently about 10 
per cent.

Q. About 10 per cent? A. Yes.
Q. All right.
Aside from this 10 per cent, any people in the Hall 

School except for children starting this year in the first 
grade would have gone to the Hall School last year ? A. 
Right.

Q. Right? A. Right.
Q. So, then, if they are changed to the Clark School, 

that would be the first change of a school for them?
It ’s not as if they went to one new school this fall and 

then they had to go to another new school in January; 
is that correct? A. Of course, as the Court has pointed 
out, even where there is no change whatsoever, adminis­

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741

tration center or anything else, you still have this new 
orientation each year.

— 145—

Q. Well— A. Of course, we have had that—
Q. Well, we will get to that. A. —behind us now.
Q. I  would appreciate it—and maybe we can cut this 

hearing short—if you would address your answers to my 
questions, and we’ll keep them short. A. All right.

Q. I f  you want to add anything, feel free to do so be­
cause all I want to know is what problems you people 
are facing.

So, with respect to the people required to leave the 
school buildings to which they have become accustomed 
and enter new ones, you would admit, would you not, that 
they’re going to have to enter a new building either now 
or in the fall if this plan is adopted; is that not correct? 
A. That’s true.

Q. All right.
Now, you say they will have to adjust to new classes! 

A. Of course, we assume that’s true.
They don’t have to. They could go to private school, 

move away, stay at home. They have a number of options.
— 146—

I f  they are in the public school, they would.
Q. All right. We’re only talking about the public schools 

now— A. Right.
Q. —and I  am just interested in your responses to 

what would happen in the public schools. A. Right.
Q. All right.
You say they will have to adjust to new classmates.
Now, this one confuses me and I would like to go into 

this in a little bit of detail.

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742

As I  understand it, your plan proposes Grades 1 and 2 
at the Clark School, Grades 3, 4, 5 and 6 at two centers 
within the Hall complex? A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let’s forget the Grade 3 problem for a 
moment. I ’m talking about the Grade 3 of the Clark School.

Now, Grades 1 and 2—how many sections of Grades 
1 and 2 do you have at the Hall School this year? A. 
Three sections of one; two of two.

Q. All right.
Three and two then? A. Five.

—147—
Q. Five? A. Five sections.
Q. Now, would it not seem sensible if the plan were to 

take place at mid-year that you would keep these classes 
as integral units with the same teacher and with the same 
people in the class?

I mean I  think that you would be heaping additional 
problems on your shoulders if you were to reshuffle the 
classes.

So, I  ask you in response to your statement that they 
have to get adjusted to new classmates: What adjust­
ments are going to be required if you pick this class up 
and move it over here just as you picked up a class from 
E-l-A to E-l-B, or two classes, and just as you picked 
up a class from E-2-A and moved it to E-2-B? A. The 
principal plus supervising help, of course, may recom­
mend such a course of action, but they may recommend 
instead of that simply to group these pupils according 
to some ability level, whether achievement test results, 
maturity, physiological maturity, or other bases or cri­
teria.

Now, if they came up with—

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743

Q. Who would recommend this!
I ’m sorry. A. The principal or the supervisor.
An elementary supervisor works with the principal and 

teachers.
Now, should they come up with some solution like that 

for the consideration of the Board, then, of course, that 
completely, you see, scrambles the entire picture. Of 
course, as far as the learning average of the pupil, they 
would be free to recommend whatever they professionally 
felt to be the best solution, and what that would be I  
could not say. They have not come to grips with the 
problem.

Q. When you moved two sections from E-l-A to E-l-B, 
did you give aptitude tests and did you reshuffle all the 
classes! A. The principal and supervisor affected said it 
was perfectly okay to do so just on the entirety basis.

Q. I  say: Did you do it?
Did they reshuffle all of the classes?

The Court: He answered your question. You 
didn’t understand him.

Mr. Aronson: They could, he said.
The Court: He said they agreed to leave the

— 149-

section intact and put it in the other building would 
be acceptable practice.

Mr. Aronson: Oh, I  thought you said they could.
The Witness: No.
Mr. Aronson: Thank you, your Honor.

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— 148—



744

H ea r in g  o f  N o v em b er  15, 1965

Gycelle Tynes-—for Defendants—Cross 

B y Mr. Aronson:

Q. What about shifting from E-2-A to E-2-B? A. The 
same agreement was made there.

Q. That they would move as a class? A. That’s right, 
sir. Entirety.

Q. And keep it as a unit? A. Right.
Q. So, what you’re suggesting—the possibility need not 

at all be the best educational solution to shifting if you 
were to shift at mid-year, and I would ask you in your— 
A. Well, we couldn’t say that. These two persons have 
intimate knowledge of these children far more than I  have 
or the School Board has. Consequently, we would look 
to them for counsel and recommendations and, of course, 
we’d be tempted to follow their recommendations.

Q. Have you talked to them about this yet? A. No.
Q. Yet you have known that this— A. I say I have

—150—
not talked to them. What I mean by that: I have not 
given them any instructions to pursue the matter.

I  have told them about the hearing, about the fact that 
we have this situation, but we have not engaged in any 
activity trying to anticipate what the Court’s decision will 
be.

Q. So, this whole dialogue that you have gone into 
about personality tests and achievement tests and various 
other measuring devices for the students is something 
that may or may not happen?

You have had no advice whatsoever from, the people 
you look to, have you? A. Just it’s more or less routine. 
In other words, we have three teachers here that teach 83 
pupils. These pupils have been divided this year already.



745

Q. They’ve what? A. They have been divided, assigned 
to three teachers, and now professional principals and 
supervisors are free to work out their best methods and 
techniques of dividing these pupils in order to group them 
with roughly homogeneous groups, with peers who have 
roughly equivalent learning abilities.

— 151-

Now, whether what they have done already is sufficient 
or whether it would have to be given an agonizing re­
appraisal would be a problem which immediately we would 
place in the hands of these professional staff members 
once this problem comes about.

Now, we do not anticipate giving them this problem in 
the area of speculation and supposition until the thing 
becomes a fact. To do so would cause these professional 
workers to spin their wheels for a number of weeks per­
haps. It would cause the community to become alarmed, 
concerned, and, of cours, we would immediately begin un­
doing what we have thus far set in motion for this school 
year. We couldn’t afford to traffic in rumors of this sort—- 
just simply couldn’t afford to.

Q. I  see.
Anything that you would tell an immediate subordinate 

to study, say, even sub silentio, to keep it real quiet, would 
immediately get out into the community? A. The teacher 
would recognize what was happening immediately.

Q. So, you have got a bad community problem then; is 
that right?

I don’t understand— A. Well, no.
— 152—

Q. You testified a little bit earlier— A. I  would say no 
different here from anywhere else, but this is a situation 
which is without precedent in my experience.

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746

Q. I ’d agree with that. A. I simply have not heard of 
a community consolidating two schools in the middle of 
the year. I  have not.

Q. Now, you testify next that one of the difficulties will 
be in switching at mid-year the teachers in many instances, 
and I  quote now from the plan:

“Their teachers in many instances will be other 
than those whom they have known.”

Now, if you were to move these students as a unit with 
their teacher, as you have done in the only three recent 
instances in your district where you have made such a 
move, why would they have to get to know different teach­
ers? A. Of course, we can’t say which is which. A proba­
bility exists here that considerable regrouping would occur.

Q. Is that your testimony?
- 1 5 3 -

Let’s get this straight.
Is it your testimony there is going to be considerable re­

grouping, that if this— A. I am saying the probability 
exists that there would be considerable regrouping.

Q. And upon what facts do you base your statement that 
the probability is that there would be considerable regroup­
ing? A. The figures here indicate that we have smaller 
groups here in one school transferring in or being trans­
ferred into another. Consequently, when you have smaller 
sections here, 22 pupils, other teachers perhaps 30, you’re 
going to equalize that situation.

Q. I think that you now are going to have to fish or cut 
bait because you testified earlier that these per pupil rela­
tionships were accurate.

N owt , as I understand it, at the Eliza Clark School the 
pupil-teacher ratio is 30.2 to one and at the Hall School

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747

it’s 29.8 to one. So, there’s only .4 of a student difference 
per pupil,— A. That’s correct.

Q- —if I accept your figures? A. That’s correct.
—154—

Q. Now, I ’m a bit confused when you say there is such 
a disparity in pupil-teacher ratios, and which I  questioned 
earlier, and you said, “No; those are accurate.” A. Eight.

Q. Which is it? Is it the situation now that you are 
relying on to delay or is it these figures? A. The figures 
you are holding there or these, the same ones.

Now, the teacher-pupil ratio simply means the number 
of active teachers in the school divided into the number of 
pupils which you have.

These 19 pupils are being taught, aren’t they?
Q. I  take it— A. Consequently, these five teachers— 

their time must be prorated to the 19 pupils. Consequently, 
it’s a mathematical concept; just a statistical figure.

Q. So, what you’re suggesting now, as I understand it, 
is that one of the difficulties of combining in mid-year is 
the disparity in the pupil-teacher relationship; is that 
right? A. It ’s not the teacher-pupil ratio. It ’s simply 
this: I f  you have 95 pupils in the fifth grade and you 
bring in X  number to them, you’re going to look at the

—1 5 5 -
total, make sure that the four teachers have a very similar 
teaching load. Of course, in this case, it would be a grade, 
29 in the fifth grade group; but these things are going to 
move up and down, grade to grade, and you would attempt 
to equalize this teaching load. Otherwise you’re going to 
have dissatisfied teachers.

No teacher with a section of 30 fifth-graders wants to 
see another teacher with a section of 25 or, of course, one 
with 33 wouldn’t want to see one with 28.

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748

Q. Well, that’s a problem that, you know, may have to 
he worked out.

But, to the extent that that was worked out, it may just 
involve a few pupils, the ones that were shifted to equalize 
the burden; is that not true? A. Well, it’s usually not 
quite that simple.

Q. Well, what are the others factors, sir? A. Well, of 
course, you start shifting there, pupils moving in, moving 
out and the like.

Of course, if you take that example right there—
Q. Moving in and moving out of where? A. Out of the 

zones and what-not.
Q. Do you anticipate they would be moving out of the

- 1 5 6 -

zones? A. It ’s possible anywhere. They’re moving all the 
time, every month of the school year.

Of course, now, you’d adjust perhaps three classes and, 
take this fifth grade, pull up three and place in one, which 
would not make such a significant difference. It would make 
some, but not too significant.

Q. Well, if it wouldn’t make that much difference, then 
I  take it that the statement that this is a difficulty doesn’t 
hold true; is that right? A. No; we can’t say that. We 
can’t say that.

Q. All right. Again I take your statement:

“Their teachers in many instances will be other 
than those whom they have known.”

Now, does that necessarily follow? A. That’s true.
Q. You can’t make that statement, can you? A. Yes. 

In fact, quite a proportion of pupils throughout, and per­
haps every grade, which would have new teachers.

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749

Q. Well, your testimony seems to indicate that it would 
be an accomplished fact in the event of a consolidation that 
the classes would be reshuffled? A. I  hardly see any way 
at all to accomplish the task without considerable shuffling.

—157—
Q. Well, the results, then, I  would submit,—and I  would 

like your judgment on these results—are one of two things: 
On the one hand, you have in the first grade—

Let’s take the second grade at Hall. You have two 
teachers for 71 pupils. So, that’s an average of 35— A. 
Thirty-five.

Q. —.5. A. Yes.
Q. And you have got 28 at Clark. A. Yes.
Q. Now, didn’t the Court order of this Court provide 

that the teacher-pupil relationship was to be equalized? 
A. Eight.

Q. And do you consider that equalized when there’s a 
difference of nine pupils per teacher? A. Seven pupils.

Twenty-eight and 35.
Q. Excuse me. Seven. A. Seven.
Q. Seven and a half. A. They’re not perfectly equal, 

but this Court order applies to a school. You will always
—1 5 8 -

have disparities wuthin a school. You should not have dis­
parities within a grade, but in a school from grade to 
grade you will get disparities within an acceptable range.

Thirty-five is a limit, but in a given grade, once you 
bring in another group, you’d have to then equalize that 
grade to be fair.

Q. You’re over 35. You say 35 is the limit, and it’s 35.5 
there in the second grade at Hall. A. Well, that was a 
gross figure, which—in other words, it’s not a net enroll­
ment figure, but a proposed figure. It could be 69, 68.

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750

Q. And it could be 73? A. No; not that.
Q. You mean this is the highest possible figure!
Is that what this is? A. In fact, 70, itself, is the highest. 

I f  there is one extra pupil, of course, he’s more or less a 
temporary assignment.

Q. So, I  take it, then, that your testimony is if you were 
to combine these grades that one of the great problems 
would be what you feel to be an inevitable reshuffling of 
classes? A. I can’t see how it could be effected otherwise. 
I  can’t.

—159—
You’re bringing in unequal figures and, of course, when 

you look at that total situation, that’s unequal within a 
grade. Consequently, you’d have to look carefully at that 
and reshuffle as was necessary to equalize.

Q. All right.
You also state the other half of the coin, and that is 

“schooling of children to whom they are unaccustomed and 
of whom they know nothing,” talking about the teachers, 
and “an additional burden of adjusting to a strange student 
body in the middle of a school year.”

Now, again I don’t mean to burden you with this ques­
tion, but it seems to me that you suggest that it’s in­
evitable that they be reshuffled and then from this re­
shuffling you allege all kinds of problems that will follow. 
So, it seems to me that what you’re doing is perhaps 
creating your own problems and that on balance maybe a 
disparity in class size would be the best thing if this 
Court should find that this is an unconstitutional border 
based upon race.

Is that a possibility, and on balance that you would be 
best leaving the classes as units even though there is a

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751

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— 160—

disproportionate size? A. That’s simply an administra­
tive matter or educational matter which the staff would 
have to view in all of its facets, every possible factor 
and phase that bears on i t ; simply a problem to be solved.

Q. And let me ask this again: We briefly mentioned 
this this morning, but I  would like to ask you what—

Mr. Aronson: Strike that.

By Mr. Aronson-.

Q. Is it your testimony that you do not feel that the 
fact of mixing the races is a considerable fact— A. I 
would have to say this—

Q. —that has to be recognized? A. Mixing races is not 
even a factor for the School Board to be concerned about. 
The same problem would exist exactly if the races were 
of one race instead of two or three.

Q. In other words, it’s your testimony that the fact 
that this is all white, E-l-C, and that this zone, E-l-B, is 
all Negro is totally irrelevant to this problem?

Is that your testimony? A. That’s true.
Q. All right. A. In fact, all of the consolidation to

— 161—

which I  referred, which has taken place in Mississippi 
during my years as a schoolman, has been a monoracial 
or a uniracial consideration. The consolidation to which 
I referred was not biracial. It was monoracial.

Q. So, you’re saying there really is no race problem 
there at all? A. No.

Mr. Luckett: He didn’t say that, if the Court 
please.



752

The Witness: I haven’t said that.
Mr. Aronson: I think he did.
The Witness: I have said the primary concern— 
The Court: Just a minute.
The Witness: —of the School Board is nonracial. 
The Court: Just a minute, Mr. Tynes.
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: He has repeatedly said race was not 

a factor that was given any consideration by the 
School Board or by him in arriving at these plans. 
He has never said that race is not a community fac­
tor or a community concern.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Mr. Tynes, when you add the factor of race, which 
your School Board has not considered in approaching these

—1 6 2 -
problems, does it become a much more difficult problem? 
A. We have four grades desegregated now in the elemen­
tary schools. Consequently, the factor of race can apply 
to those grades. That situation has been solved.

Q. Mr. Tynes, you have four grades desegregated. You 
say you have Grades 1, 2, 3 and 4 desegregated. A. Plus 
Grade 12 in the high school.

Q. Plus Grade 12.
We are only talking about the elementary grades— A. 

Bight.
Q. —in this hearing. A. Bight.
Q. How many Negro children are attending classes with 

white students within the same schools within your school 
district? A. To my knowledge, none.

Q. And would it be your testimony that if one was, or 
more, you would know it? A. I think I  would.

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753

Q. So, to your knowledge is tantamount to saying there 
are none? A. I  think that’s correct.

Q. And is it not also true that when Zones E-l-B  and
—163—

E-l-C are combined there will be an inevitable mixing of 
the races?

Is that not— A. I  can’t say that. I  have no knowledge 
of that. We had the same thing before with E-l-A, E-l-B, 
E-2-A, E-2-B. We had a considerable number of white 
chidren in those zones. Up in E-4-A we have Negro pupils 
living now, but they haven’t chosen to come to the white 
public schools so-called. Instead, they have apparently 
gone to a private school. Consequently, we don’t know what 
will happen when zones are set up or anything of the sort.

The only thing we know is that a pupil living in a zone, 
once his grade is desegregated by this Court, if he attends 
a public school, of course, will go to that school in that 
center. He can exercise other constitutional options that 
he may have, which, of course, is no concern of ours, the 
defendants.

When we say that Grades 1 to 4 have been desegregated, 
that’s an established fact in this community. Whether or 
not one, 10 or a hundred pupils of a different race come 
in, that’s no major issue.

I f  20 pupils should move into a zone tomorrow in Grades 
1 to 4 and attend that school, that would hardly create a

—164—
riffle because desegregation has come through this Court.

Q. So, then, you are testifying you have some knowledge 
as to what would happen, and you say if 20 Negroes were 
to move into E-4-A tomorrow there wouldn’t be a riffle in 
the community, to use your testimony? A. That’s what I 
would think.

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754

Q. You don’t think so? A. No.
Q. And, similarly, would you like to extrapolate that 

knowledge and apply it to this situation? A. I  think the 
same is true. In fact, the community has already accepted 
the fact that desegregation is a fact of life here. Conse­
quently, people move from zone to zone, simply enter into 
a desegregated situation, as they choose. They’re free to 
do so.

Q. But you have testified that there are no Negroes and 
no whites going to school together,— A. You understand 
the reason why.

Q. —and you further testified— A. They have chosen 
not to.

Q. I ’ll get to my question— A. They have chosen not to.
—165—

Q. —in a minute.. A. Yes. Now your question?
Q. You have testified in those zones where white children 

lived in desegregated grades that they simply dropped out 
of the school system?

That’s your testimony; you said there were whites down 
here and they dropped out of the school system? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. “Down here” being E-l-A and E-l-B. A. And, of 
course, the same with E-4-A with Negro pupils up there. 
They chose to discontinue their relationship in the schools, 
the public schools.

Q. So, what you have posited to this Court, then, is the 
fact that in those few instances where there was fortuitous 
coexistence of Negroes and whites in one district that the 
Clarksdale solution or at least the solution in Clarksdale 
today has been for the person who is in the race other than 
that predominantly attending the school to drop out of 
school? A. That’s not the Board of Trustees’ solution.

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755

You understand the defendants in this case do not have 
the power of Caesar. We have certain obligations, certain 
authority, but beyond that citizens, themselves, have au-

— 166—

thority. They have rights, civil rights, and rights of that 
character, and, of course, they are free to exercise those 
without any restraint from the Board of Trustees.

Q. You also state, Mr. Tynes:

“Other administrative difficulties too numerous for 
listing would present themselves.”

I wonder if you would list them for us, please. A. Well, 
I have mentioned several already. Possibly one new one 
which could be tossed in : This school district from time to 
time has to float bond issues for capital outlay purposes. 
I  would venture this testimony: I f  this consolidation oc­
curred here in the middle of a school year, I  expect that 
10 years would pass, possibly a generation, before you 
could ever get a school bond issue passed in this com­
munity.

Now, we are in need right at present—
Q. Why is that, Mr. Tynes? A. Simply because that 

would be a situation that would cause this community to 
lose confidence in the leadership of its Board of Trustees, 
leadership of its Superintendent. In fact, that sort of thing 
isn’t done in educational circles. I ’ve never known of it 
before,—

Q. Are you suggesting the community— A. —and we
- 167-

are not proposing it be done here.
Q. I know you are not proposing— A. Our total pro­

posal is that this thing be done orderly and in a proper

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756

and judicially feasible manner in the between-school-year 
period; in other words, in the summer months, at the end 
of the scholastic year, June 30th.

Q. Mr. Tynes, no one here doubts that you’re an ad­
vocate of your plan, and no one doubts that you propose 
the plan to wait at the end of the year, but I  respectfully 
suggest the reason we’re in court today is to explore the 
possibilities of what an alternative might be, and I ’d ap­
preciate answers to the question directed to that, if you 
might.

Getting back to this questioning, what other numerous 
instances which are too long to list is your Board relying 
on in suggesting it’s impossible to change in the middle of 
the year? A. I  don’t recall whether that particular docu­
ment spells out contractual relations with principals, with 
teachers, with secretaries.

Does it do so?
Q. You allude to it; yes. A. Of course, they are all fac­

tors, weighty factors.
—168—

We have testified concerning the double load that would 
be placed upon the orientation process, in which children 
would, of course, have to go through a second orientation 
within one school year.

Those are the chief factors, I  would say.
Q. All right.
Just a few more questions and we’ll be all done, Mr. 

Tynes.
Do you have a copy of your plan? A. Yes.
Q. Could you take it out, please?

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Mr. Aronson: Let the record show that the wit­
ness is being directed to the revised plan for ele­
mentary attendance zones in Subdistricts E -l and 2.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. Now, I  direct your attention to Page 2, and we are 
going to work through some figures. So, I  ask you to pay 
reasonably close attention.

We’re now at 2 (a), and you say that:

“There are approximately 1,000 elementary school 
pupils residing in Subdistrict E -l and approximately 
940 elementary pupils residing in Subdistrict E-2.”

- 1 6 9 -
Now, do you have handy a list of the number of class­

rooms, teacher classrooms or instruction rooms, available 
in E -l and E-2 ? A. Thirty-four in E-2.

Forty-one in E-l.
Q. In E-2 how many? A. Thirty-four.
Q. And in E-l? A. Forty-one.
Q. Now, these figures that you give—940 in E-2 and 

1,000 in E -l—are those current?

Mr. Luekett: If the Court please, may I  make a 
statement—

The Witness: This year—
The Court: Wait just a minute.
Mr. Luekett: May I make a statement which might 

clarify something for Mr. Aronson?
We’re talking about school population.
Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean the population 

that goes to the public school.
I think we are trying to combine in there the num­

ber of children, some of whom go to private school.

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758

S e a r in g  o f  N o v em b er  15, 1965

Gycelle Tynes—for Defendants—Cross 

Is that right, Mr. Tynes?
—170—

The Witness: This is pretty close for what we 
have at present.

Let me check this just a second.
These figures are current. They’re current.
Mr. Aronson: Yes, sir.

By Mr. Aronson:

Q. In other words, in E-2 there are approximately 940 
students enrolled and in E -l there are approximately 1,000 
students enrolled? A. Right.

Of course, that includes both races, all races.
Q. Well, as far as E-2 is concerned, you’d only be con­

cerned with one race, wouldn’t you? A. No. We have 
white children there, fifth and sixth grade. Not many. A 
few.

Q. I see.
Do you have those figures handy? A. I  think you have 

them before you.
Thirteen, wasn’t it?
I think that’s in your interrogatory.
Q. If they’re in here, I ’ll get to them later.
All right. Proceeding now again down through your re­

vised plan, referring you or directing your attention to
- I l l -

Page 4 (a), you say that E-l-A contains the George Oliver 
Elementary School, which is a modern school building with 
a capacity for 540 pupils.

All right. You say:

“To utilize it as it should be utilized, its student body 
cannot be confined”—and you then give arguments as



759

to the highways—it can’t be confined to people north 
or south of 61 and east or west of 49.

Now, going on, is it still your testimony that such should 
be the case, i.e., that the students should not be bordered by 
the various highways? A. We simply have insufficient pu­
pils at present to utilize—that’s insufficient pupils south of 
the highway, Highway 61, to utilize—school facilities which 
are located south of the highway. In fact, looking at the 
Oliver School, it has a capacity, as you see here, for 540; 
yet the entire portion of Subdistrict E -l lying east of the 
railroad and south of Highway 61—that entire area has 
some 240 or 43 pupils.

Q. All right. A. Consequently, they would utilize only 
eight of the 18 classrooms at Oliver.

—172—
Q. All right.
Then you go on to (b) and you say if E-l-A is constituted 

as heretofore constituted by defendants—in other words, in 
this fashion here— A. Right.

Q. —there will be some 320 pupils who will have to cross 
over Highway 61.

Is that from the south? A. They live north of the high­
way and they go south.

Q. Excuse me. South. A. South.
Q. All right.
Then you set out that you think it’s reasonably safe.
Now, what I  would like to ask you is : What happens with 

all that capacity?
You claim you have capacity for 540 students in Oliver 

School. Your answers to your interrogatories indicate you 
have 395 students enrolled and your earlier testimony indi­

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760

cates that you have shifted two classes from E-l-A, Oliver, 
to E-l-B, Hall.

Now, I  would like you to clear up what appears to be a 
discrepancy in your testimony. In other words, if you have

- 1 7 3 -
capacity for 540 pupils over here and, in fact, you only have 
395, but in addition to that you sent approximately 60 to 
another school, where is all this capacity? A. Well, we 
testified this morning that, because of some temporary 
crowding at the secondary level—

Oliver is located nearby Higgins Junior High School. 
Consequently, we were simply making available classrooms 
in the elementary school for seventh grade pupils at the 
Higgins School.

Q. Do you have expansion plans for Higgins? A. Oh, 
yes. I  testified this morning concerning that.

Q. And when do you expect that to be open? A. Septem­
ber of ’66.

Q. And how many pupils will you be able to accommodate 
in addition to those that you can accommodate at this time ? 
A. Something like 450 or 460.

Q. Four hundred and fifty or 460— A. Yes.
Q. —more than you can now? A. Right.

—174—
Q. So, that problem will disappear next fall? A. Yes, 

if it materializes, the construction program which is under 
way.

Q. You say if it materializes. Is there any doubt?
Have they already acquired the money and let the con­

tracts? A. We have the land. We have paid for the site. 
We have plans under way now with the architects, but we 
do not have all funds in hand. There is some question about 
funds, which is a common problem.

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761

Q. When would you have to start to have it opened by 
1966? A. In January or February the 1st.

Q. You would have to start by February 1st? A. I  be­
lieve so.

Q. What would you estimate the chances are that you will 
have your funds by January or February 1st? A. Well, 
we have constructed other buildings with the same amount 
of time, the same chances that we have now.

Of course, I ’d be quick to point out here to the Court if 
these plans do not materialize then we wnuld have to shift 
some of Zone E-l-A next summer over to Zone E-l-B.

We will have several classrooms available in the eom-
—175—1

bination E-l-B and E-l-C next year. Consequently, we may 
have to shift part of the zone there, at least temporarily, or 
come to the Court and seek the permission to do so in order 
to free more of the Oliver building for secondary school use.

Q. All right.
I  direct your attention to Page 5 of the plan, and I ’d like 

to know where you get the figures for the last paragraph 
on Page 5, which continues over to Page 6, starting out 
with:

“Should the attendance areas or zones in Subdistrict 
E-l-B  be reconstituted as herein proposed . . .”

First, let me ask: What does that refer to ?
Are you talking about the reconstitution? A. Two zones 

into one.
Q. This combination? A. Right. Right.
Q. I f  they are reconstituted as herein proposed, the ele­

mentary pupils residing therein who number about a 
thousand— A. Of course, not only those two zones com­
bined, but E-l-A also.

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762

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—176—
Q. I understand. A. The whole subdistrict.
Q. I understand.
You are talking about the whole subdistriet— A. Eight.
Q. —would be divided so 470 of them would attend the 

George Oliver Elementary School and 530 would attend the 
Eliza Clark School.

Now, where do you get these figures!
Most particularly, you say that— A. Five hundred and 

thirty would be the approximate net number in Myrtle Hall, 
at present its home pupils plus those in Eliza Clark, 105 
plus 415, or 425, I  believe it is.

Four hundred and twenty-five plus 105—530.
Q. Where do you get 105? A. That’s the figure which 

you used this morning concerning the number of resident 
pupils in E-l-B.

Q. Right.
But then what happens— A. Zone E-l-C.
Q. Yes. A. Excuse me.
Q. E-l-C? A. E -l-C ; right.

—177—
Q. But we also saw there was 147 or 42 that came from 

out of the district. What’s going to happen to those 42? 
A. Well, of course, your guess is possibly as good as mine.

Some will get caught by the desegregation next fall, and 
what they will do I  don’t know. Some, sixth grade, will 
move up to seventh grade next year.

Q. What do you propose— A. The fifth and sixth are 
not desegregated.

Q. You’re just assuming that these 105 students will be 
all that you will have to draw on and you are making all 
sorts of assumptions about them staying in school? A.



763

Well, next year all six grades will be desegregated. Con­
sequently, we’re referring here in this paragraph to Sub- 
district E -l, the pupils who live in it.

Q. But at this time you’re educating some 42 students 
in E-l-C who live in E-3-A. A. No. Many of those live 
out at E-l-A. Something around 25 or 30 live in E-3-A.

Q. All right.
What’s going to happen to those 25 or 30 that live in 

E-3-A? A. The sixth graders, the seventh grade, the other
—1 7 8 -

pupils—that will be a matter that this Court and the Board 
of Trustees will work out.

Q. You are coming into this Court with a revised plan, 
and I think part of the information upon which the Court 
must act is knowing what happens to E-3-A and the students 
therein. A. Well, this morning I  testified concerning the 
commercialization of the southeast corner of E-3-A.

You heard that?
Q. Mr. Tynes,— A. Now—
Q. —let me— A. I ’m pursuing your question.
Q. All I  want to know—
I don’t want to know about who is building what,
I  want to know7 what’s happening to the children who live 

here, and it’s a very simple question that can be answered 
very simply or not answered.

What happens to the children who live in E-3-A? Where 
do they go to school,— A. Some—

Q. —the Grades 1 through 6! A. —now go to Oakhurst.
—179—

A small group in the southeast corner attend Clark.
The Court here no doubt will advise the School Board 

what to do wdth any pupils who may remain there. Of 
course, none may remain by next year. I  do not know.

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764

Q. In other words, you have made no plans; you are sim­
ply going to look to the Court for advice! A. Well, all the 
way through we have proposed to the Court that some ad­
judication be made of those pupils. Of course, traditionally, 
those north of First Street have gone to Oakhurst, and now, 
it, of course, makes educational sense, since that subdistrict 
is tied to the junior high and to the senior high and in that 
junior high zone and senior high zone, that those pupils go 
to an elementary school in the same general junior high and 
senior high zones. Normally you do that with feeder 
schools, the children in feeder schools. That’s your educa­
tional answer.

Q. That’s a nice— A. Whether it’s acceptable to the 
Court is for the Court to determine.

Q. That’s a nice answer, Mr. Tynes, but I just hasten to 
remind you that this zone has no school— A. Quite right.

—180—-
Q. —in it. A. Quite right.
Q. All right.
Now, I  would like to ask you about— A. The adjudica­

tion of those children has been by this Court.
Q. Thank you.
Now, proceeding on to Page 6, III, you say:

“Subdistrict E-2 should remain as presently consti­
tuted and the present attendance areas or zones should 
not be disturbed.”

Now, I  wondered if your testimony remains the same 
with respect to that after testifying this morning that you 
lifted up one whole class with teacher and sent it. over to 
another school. A. No; not at all.

Later on in here—take the whole document—you will find 
that the School Board has asked the Court for permission

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765

to make these modifications within a subdistrict within short 
limitations.

Q. Well, is it your feeling that this problem will abate 
next year? A. No. I  think we’ll shift that line from Fifth

—181—
Street to Sixth Street.

Q. Oh, I  see.
What you are saying is, then, you want permission to 

juggle these or move these zonelines as you deem fit, and 
you would ask the Court to so order so that if next year 
you feel this should be moved down you would like to be 
able to do that without asking the Court? A. Right.

Q. I  see. A. Of course, what we want simply from the 
Court is boundary lines within which the School Board 
would have some latitude or freedom to act.

Q. Right.
Now, going back to Page 6, you say—again I  redirect 

your attention to the same sentence:

“Subdistrict E-2 should remain as presently consti­
tuted and the present attendance areas or zones should 
not be disturbed.”

Then I  direct your attention to Page 7, Paragraph 2, the 
first full paragraph, where it says:

“Should the attendance areas or zones in Subdistrict 
E-2 be reconstituted as herein proposed . . .”

- 1 8 2 -
Now, who is proposing that redefinition or redrawing of 

the lines? A. That’s the School Board. In other words, 
the School Board proposes that the same lines be used and 
simply be reconstituted.

The Court has directed the School Board to come up with

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766

new lines, a new proposal, recently, new zones, for these 
five zones.

In three of the zones the School Board proposes the 
present lines simply he reconstituted, that the zones be as 
drawn at present.

I don’t think there’s anything mysterious about that. I 
can’t see it.

Q. All right.
What you’re doing is you’re suggesting that somebody is 

proposing a redrawing of lines, hut you start out by saying 
E-2 should remain as presently constituted. Then you go 
on, at the end of the next paragraph, and say:

“Should the attendance areas or zones in Subdistrict 
E-2 be reconstituted as herein proposed . . .”

A. Well, should then these facts follow.
Q. All right. A. In other words, that’s just giving in-

—1 8 3 -
formation to the Court—

Q. Now, let me ask— A. —concerning the number of 
pupils.

Q. Let me ask you this: You say:

“No good purpose would be served”—

I am now directing your attention to (b) on Page 6:

“No good purpose would be served by adding to the 
zone served by the Booker T. Washington Elementary 
School”-—

S e a r in g  o f  N o v em b er  IS , 1965

G ycelle T ynes— fo r  D efendants— C ross

Which is right here, is it?

—“the area bounded on the north by the right of way 
of U. S. Highway 61, on the east by the right of way



767

of IT. S. Highway 49, and on the west by the right of 
way of the Illinois Central Railroad . . . ”

And then yon testified this morning— A. There are no 
children in there.

Q. —there are absolutely no children in there. A. 
That’s what we’re saying here. Consequently, adding to 
Booker T. Washington doesn’t help an iota, doesn’t help a 
child.

—184—
Q. Well, also looking to the growth, if children should 

move in there— A. That’s totally industrialized. That’s 
simply an industrial complex.

Q. All right.
Now, you go on, and this is what I  don’t understand. Go­

ing to the first full paragraph on 7, which starts out:

“Should the attendance areas or zones be reconsti­
tuted,” you say, “the elementary pupils residing therein 
who number about 925 . . .”

Is that 925 in this district here? A. Right.
Q. E-2? A. Subdistrict; yes.
Q. Now, it’s 925 today, though, isn’t it?
That doesn’t involve any amending of lines— A. No.
Q. —to get to that figure? A. No.
Q. All right.

“. . . would be divided so that 475 would attend 
Booker T. Washington School”—right here—“and 450

—185—
would attend Riverton School.”

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Is that what’s happening now?



768

In other words, that paragraph of your plan I ’m not 
clear on. A. Approximately. That’s the approximate case 
today.

Q. All right. A. Actually, we have 468 pupils at Wash­
ington; one section is at Eiverton, but next year apparently 
it will be close to 475.

Q. All right.
Are you in a position to make any estimate as to when 

the earliest date of an opening of a school in E-3-A could 
be effected? A. Possibly ’67. If this residential develop­
ment occurs quickly, of course, it would have to be Sep­
tember of ’66.

Q. But you have no money appropriate for it as yet, 
and the residential area you’re talking about as yet is not 
even part of the City of Clarksdale? A. I t ’s just begin­
ning at the present moment.

Q. Bight. A. Of course, we hope it doesn’t develop too 
rapidly It’s quite easy for development to get ahead of

—186—
your finances or capital outlay funds.

Mr. Aronson: If I  could have just one short mo­
ment, your Honor—

I think I ’m done. I just want to review and see 
if I  am.

I  have no further questions at this time, your 
Honor.

The Court: Any redirect, Mr. Luckett?
Mr. Luckett: I  don’t think so, your Honor.
The Court: All right. You may stand down, Mr. 

Tynes.
Anything further for the school district?

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769

Mr. Luckett: Nothing from the school district. 
The Court: Anything for the plaintiffs.
Mr. Aronson: I have no evidence to put on, your 

Honor.
The Court: All right.

# # # # #

S e a r in g  o f  N o v em b er  15, 1965

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770

Defendants’ Exhibit 24

(S e e  O p p osite) ISF3



FEETSCALE

URBAN RENEWAL. PROJECT

CLARKSDALE 
URBAN RENEWAL PROJECT

LOCATION MAP
MICHAEL BAKER, JR, INC. 

CONSULTING ENGINEERS -  PLANNERS 
JACKSON, MISS. DEC., I9S2

1

11 .11 1

j J l

-------- - ----------- 4 ii

^<■ ' \ /

\

""
 

\ \

r ' ' ~  .
i \



771



772

Defendants’ Exhibit 25

(S e e  O p p osite) SSF



INSIDE PROJECT BOUNDARY 

Deficient Structure 

Standard Structure 

OUTSIDE PROJECT BOUNDARY 

Deficient Structure* 

STRUCTURE IDENTIFICATION 

Commercial 

Industrial

L E G E N D

□

Remaining structures are residential

Entire lot shown.

CLARKSDALE
URBAN RENEWAL PROJECT

PROJECT
CONDITIONS MAP

MICHAEL BAKER, JR„ INC. 
CONSULTING ENGINEERS -  PLANNERS 

Jackson, Miss. Rochester, Pa.
DEQ. 1962



773



774

Defendants’ Exhibit 26

(S e e  O p p osite) IE§P



Ixm
n

 
O

M
im

ru

LEGEND
2 5  W HITE PERSONS------------ o

2 5  NON -W H ITE PERSONS-----•

i
C O M P R E H E N S IV E  C IT Y  P LA N  

C LA R K S D A L E ,  M IS S IS S IP P I

POPULATION DISTRIBUTION
M IC H A E L  B A K E R , JR., INC. 

CONSULTING ENGINEERS —  PLAN N ER S 
ROCHESTER, PA. JACKSON , MISS-

Aliens*, 1959

r-'iGURETT'a



Defer

(S

ti



775



V $*®w*ia»«|

776

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it  26

Residential blight in certain sectors of Clarksdale has been a matter of increasing 
concern to C ity o ffic ia ls  and citizens. These blighted areas, characterized by deteriorating 
dwellings, deficiencies in basic u tilit ie s , mixed land use and other environmental inadequacies, 
should be of v ita l concern to all of the C ity ’ s people. L ike  a rotten apple in a barrel, b light breeds 
more blight.

Ciarksdale’ s housing pattern is similar to the pattern found in many communities. The 
C ity ’ s older homes are located generally in and adjacent to the Central Business D is tric t and 
along the older streets radiating out from the core of the City. Within the c ity lim its , the new 
and modern residential areas are predominantly in the western and northwestern sectors of the
City.

Housing conditions have become critica l in certain parts of the C ity and other less 
deteriorated areas are showing evidence of residential blight. Although presently confined 
primarily to the older sectors of the City, the housing problem areas w ill continue to spread and 
eventually in filtra te  into the now satisfactory residential neighborhoods unless proper remedial 
steps are taken.

This chapter of the Comprehensive Plan has as its  purpose a thorough study of prevailing 
conditions and the formulation of suggested housing program designed to improve existing sub­
standard housing and leading to the eventual elimination of residential b light through all of the 
City.

SECTION I

INVENTORY OF EXISTING HOUSING 

SUMMARY OF HOUSING CONDITIONS

Data enumerated by the U- S. Census of Housing (1961) provide an excellent basis for 
evaluating the C ity ’s over-all housing conditions. Also, these data, when compared with similar 
data recorded by previous censuses, indicate what progress, i f  any, is being made in improving 
areas of poor housing.

Age of Dwellings :
According to the I960 census, 56 percent of a ll dwelling units reported for Clarksdale 

were constructed prior to 1940, 21 percent were bu ilt prior to 1950 and 18 percent prior to 1955. 
Only 292 dwelling units, representing 5 percent of a ll units reported, were constructed between 
1955 and 1960. These data indicate that re latively old structures predominate in the City.

Types of Dwellings:
The 1960 census reported a total of 6,427 dwelling units w ithin Ciarksdale’ s c ity  lim its. 

Of the total dwelling units reported, four-, five-, and six-room units predominated with an average 
of four rooms per dwelling unit. Approximately 2,880 units were owner-occupied, 3,235 were 
renter-occupied, and the remaining 312 units were either vacant or with status of ownership 
not reported.

Value of Dwelling U nits:

The 1960 census reported only the values of owner-occupied dwelling units. Of the 
2,880 units enumerated, 1,528 or 55 percent were valued at more than $5,000 but less than

47



777

Defendants’ Exhibit 26

$15,000 and 484 or 17 percent were valued at more thdn $15,000. The remaining 868 units were 
valued at less than $5,000. A t the time of the 1950 census, 47 percent of owner-occupied dwell­
ings were valued between $5,000 and $15,000 with oniy 8 percent of a ll dwellings valued at more 
than $15,000.

Dilapidation and Sanitary Facilities*.

By census definition, dilapidated dwelling units were those units lacking essential 
fa c ilitie s  or in such poor state of repair that major repairs were needed to render them safe for 
human habitation. Deteriorating units were units lacking some essential fa c ilitie s  or that had 
pronounced structural defects or a combination of structural defects and lack of essential fa c ilitie s . 
This definition, employed in the 1960 census, varies somewhat from the criteria imposed by 
the 1950 census. Of the 6,427 dwelling units reported by the 1960 census, 4,548 or 71 percent 
were considered sound structures, 1,481 or 23 percent were c lassified as deteriorating and 398 
or 6 percent were considered dilapidated. Of 4,300 units reported by the 1950 census, 82 percent 
were classified as not dilapidated with 952 units or 18 percent of a ll units reported as d ilap i­
dated.

THE VISUAL SURVEY
In June and July of 1959, a house-by-house inspection of dwelling exteriors was conducted 

to determine the housing conditions in Ciarksdale. These conditions were recorded as satis­
factory, substandard or c ritica l. These classifications were predicated on the following criteria.

1. Satisfactory housing consisted of those dwellings in a good state of repair 
and requiring only normal maintenance to be kept in such condition.

2. Substandard dwellings consisted of those dwellings which have deteriorated 
to some degree and where remedial measures are necessary to reverse 
the trend toward dilapidation.

3. C ritical housing embraced those dwellings which constitute a detriment 
to public health and safety and which have deteriorated to the point where 
repairs are impracticable or can probably not be made at a reasonable cost 
in relation to the current value of the homes.

The following is a tabulation of 1959 housing conditions as determined by the visual
survey:

TABLfE V -A

SUMMARY OF HOUSING CONDITIONS -  CITY OF CLARKSDALE 1959

Approximate
Condition Number of Dwellings % of Total

Satisfactory Housing 2,397 40
Substandard Housing 1,984
C ritica l Housing 1,572 27

TOTAL 5,953 100

From the preceding table, it  can be readily seen that over 50 percent of the houses studied 
needed repairs in varying degree.

PROBLEM HOUSING AREAS
The Housing Condition Map (Figure V -1 ) portrays the location and condition of dwellings 

in Ciarksdale. This map indicates that the majority of Clarksdale’ s substandard and critica l 
housing areas are located in the older sections of the City and re latively near the Central 
Business D istric t. A major part of the housing fa lling in these two categories is located in the

48



778

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it 26

(See Opposite) SS?"



PL
A

N
N

IN
G

 
U

M
tr

j

MICHAEL BAKER, JR., INC.
CONSULTING ENGINEERS -------  PLAN N ER S

ROCHESTER, PA. JACKSON, MISS- 
A p r i l ,  1962

f  (SURE I - l



779



780

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it 26

sector of the City extending from Washington Avenue eastward to Nebraska Avenue, south of the 
Illino is  Centra! Railroad. There are scattered unsatisfactory dwellings in the remaining parts 
of the City.

The substandard and critica l areas shown outside the present c ity  lim its are primarily 
shacks or makeshift rural dwellings which, in most cases, were orig inally bu ilt as farm tenant 
houses.

The Housing Condition Map illustrates that the Town of Lyon has been infiltra ted with 
substandard dwellings over much of its developed area and that critica l housing conditions also 
exist in some sectors.

Clarksdale’ s substandard dwellings can, in most cases, be improved or corrected by the 
enactment and enforcement of sound remedial codes and ordinances. Therefore, primary stress 
should be given to improving critica l housing areas. A few of the major characteristics of these 
critica l areas are:

1. Aged homes that have reached the point of collapsing.

2. Deteriorated dwellings scattered among commercial and industrial buildings.

3. Overcrowding due to inadequate space for dwellings.

4. Narrow and unpaved streets.

5. Littered and unsightly premises.

6. Lack of adequate u tilitie s .

SECTION II

A SUGGESTED HOUSING PROGRAM 

PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING AND COOPERATION

Apart from the technical and planning aspects, the proposition of citizen participation 
is essential to the success of any housing program formulated by Clarksdaie. Unless the co­
ordinated efforts of C ity o ffic ia ls , local c iv ic  groups and the citizens of the City can be solicited, 
lit t le  can be accomplished toward improving housing conditions and the creation of a good liv ing 
environment for a ll the C ity ’ s people.

As a firs t step in the program, the C ity should begin to fam iliarize its people with pre­
vailing housing conditions. This could be accomplished through informative articles distributed 
to the press and other news media. These artic les should be supported by photographs of the 
C ity ’ s critica l housing areas. As the public becomes more aware of existing conditions, the 
remedial measures necessary to correct these conditions can be explained.

TOOLS OF THE PROGRAM -  CODES AND ORDINANCES

Sometimes improvement of housing conditions can be brought about without rig id enforce­
ment of legal controls. However, the adoption and enforcement, when necessary, of adequate 
codes and ordinances is essential to the success of the housing program. These basic codes 
are :

1. Housing Code

This code provides minimum standards for housing, enabling the City 
to compel owners to remove slum dwellings and repair substandard dwellings. The 
current code adopted in 1961, was prepared as a part of this Comprehensive Plan.

2. Zoning Ordinance

This ordinance should set the development pattern for the City, protecting 
stable residential, commercial or industrial areas from the encroachment of

51



781
D efendants’ E xh ib it 26

objectionable land uses. Recommendations for any necessary revisions to Clarks- 
dale’ s present zoning ordinance are a part of th is Comprehensive Plan.

3. Subdivision Regulations

These regulations should assure proper development of future subdivisions. 
Proper building setback lines, adequate u tilit ie s , and streets should be inherent 
parts of the regulations. Recommended subdivision regulations for the C ity are 
a part of th is Comprehensive Plan.

4. Building Code

This code establishes standards and controls to assure construction 
of structurally sound buildings. The building code, together with the housing 
code, would require that a ll buildings be both safe and non-detrimental to the 
health of the C ity ’ s people. The C ity has had a satisfactory building code for 
many years, however, in 1961, the Southern Standard Building Code was o ff ic ia lly  
adopted.

NEIGHBORHOOD ANALYSES FOR PROBLEM AREAS

The City should in itia te  a series of detailed studies of their problem housing areas to 
determine the cause of blighted conditions, the remedial steps necessary to remove existing 
blight and the course of action necessary to prevent its  recurrence. To assist the C ity in pre­
paring these studies, suggested priorities for neighborhood analyses are illustrated by Figure 
V -2 . These problem areas, listed in the order of priority for treatment, are as fo llow s:

Area I:
This area of extremely critica l housing begins at F irs t Street and extends northward 

along the Sunflower River and Friars Point Road. A portion of the area embraces what is commonly 
1 /  called “ Tuxedo Park” , an area of very dilapidated, Negro occupied dwellings. A lso included 

in Area I is an area of very poor Housing located just north of F irst Street, adjacent to the Central 
Business D istrict.

Area II:

This area is very irregular, in filtra ting and surrounding the Central Business D istric t 
to the north and east. The area extends eastward from Delta Avenue to a point approximately 
850 feet east of Tunica Avenue, and northward from the lllin io s  Central Railroad to the c ity 
lim its. Though critica l housing consists of a small percentage of the total dwellings, these 
dilapidated structures hinder the growth and appearance of the Centra! Business D istric t and its 
fringe area. Substandard housing constitutes about 50 percent of the dw ellings w ithin this area 
and the remaining dwellings, about 45 percent, are in good condition. The area predominately is 
occupied by whites.

Area III:
The lim its of this irregular area extend eastward from Washington Avenue to Jackson 

Avenue between McGee Street and the north side of the block fronted by Walnut Street. Though 
this area is populated by both whites and Negroes, Negroes predominate. Approximately 25 
percent of the dwellings fall in the critica l category. Good conditioned dwellings comprise about 
15 percent and substandard dwellings about 60 percent of total dwellings in the area. Objection­
able non-residential land uses are scattered throughout the area.

52



782

D efen dan ts’ E xh ib it 26

(See Opposite) IS?"



C O M P R E H E N S IV E  C IT Y  PLA N  
C LA R K SD A LE , M IS S IS S IP P I

PRIORITIES 
for

NEIGHBORHOOD ANALYSES
M ICHAEL BAKER JR., INC.

CONSULTING ENGINEERS------------PLANNERS
ROCHESTER, PSL JACKSON, M«SS.

rwMeir-*



783



784
D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it 26

Area IV:
This area extends eastward from the Sunflower River to the Illin o is  Centra! Railroad 

between Twelfth Street and South Edwards Avenue. The area predominately is populated by 
Negroes. The majority of the dwellings therein are in the critica l category, and only a few dwell­
ings are sound, standard structures. Mixed land uses prevail throughout the area.

Area V:
This deteriorating area extends eastward from East Tallahatchie Avenue to Lincoln 

Place and northward from Sixth Street to South Edwards Avenue. Basically, the area is populated 
by whites, though Negroes make up about 15 percent of its population. While there are a few 
scattered critica l dwellings in the area representing about 3 percent of total dwellings, sub­
standard dwellings make up about 35 percent of total dwellings and about 62 percent are good, 
sound structures.

Area VI:

This area extends in irregular fashion eastward from Mississippi Avenue to R itchie Avenue 
and northward from State Street to South Edwards Avenue. A large segment of th is area is Negro 
occupied. Approximately 10 percent of the area contains critica l housing; about 80 percent 
substandard, and the remaining 10 percent are good structures.

Area VII :
This area extends eastward from Ohio Avenue to Nebraska Avenue and southward from 

Sixth Street to Eighth Street. It is populated by both whites and Negroes. Approximately 10 
percent of the dwellings are dilapidated, about 45 percent are substandard, and the remaining 
45 percent are in good condition.

Area VIII:
This small area extends northward from Wissier Street to State Street and westward from 

Ritchie Avenue to Lincoln Place. The area predominately is Negro occupied. Approximately 4 
percent of the dwellings are dilapidated, 90 percent substandard, and the remaining 6 percent in 
good condition.

Area IX:
This area extends southward from Thirteenth Street to the south side of the block fronted 

by Eighteenth Street, between the Sunflower River and the Illino is  Central Railroad. The area 
basically is Negro occupied. C ritical dwellings represent about 45 percent of total dwellings, 
while substandard dwellings consist of nearly 50 percent and the remaining 5 percent are good, 
sound structures.

Area X:
This small area consists of one block of dilapidated dwellings occupied by whites, 

located between Pine Street and Qakhursf Road, eastward from Cheyenne Street.

Area XI:
This small area is located north of the Illino is  Central Railroad at the northeastern 

lim its of the City. The dwellings in th is Negro occupied area are in very poor condition.

Area XII:
This area consists of eight dilapidated dwellings just south of Lyon city lim its.

55



Area X III (Town of Lyon):

The d ilap idated dw e llings are in the northern part o f the developed portion o f the Town, 
north o f Fontaine Street, on each side o f Webb Street. They are occupied by Negroes and co n s ti­
tu te about 4 percent o f the to ta l dw e llings in the area. Substandard dw e llings are scattered 
throughout the developed area and make up about 36 percent o f to ta l dw e llings.

TR EATM EN T OF SUBSTANDARD HOUSING

For purposes of th is  report, substandard dw e llings were considered to be dw e llings in 
need o f repa ir but not ye t in the c r it ic a l category. For substandard dw e llings, remedial measures 
are urgently needed to prevent further deteriora tion .

A re a lis t ic  housing code is  an e ffec tive  tool for restora tion o f substandard housing. 
However, a housing code genera lly estab lishes minimum standards on ly  and some o f the C ity ’ s 
substandard housing can presently comply w ith  these minimum requirements. A program appea ling 
to community pride and re sp o n s ib ility  usua lly  is  the most e ffec tive  measure for im proving sub­
standard dw e llings where the housing code is inapp licab le . Many c it ie s  have been able to create 
“ Neighborhood improvement Groups”  among the residents o f substandard housing areas. Such 
groups perform such desirable functions as:

1. Studies of the ir neighborhoods to determine needed improvements.

2. Plan neighborhood improvements in cooperation w ith  the P lanning Commission 
and C ity  C ouncil.

3. Encourage neighborhood cooperation in in it ia tin g  the improvement plan.

4. Promote and encourage campaigns such as “ Paint-up — F ix-up Week”  or other 
campaigns adding to neighborhood beau tifica tion .

5. Enlighten the people about the benefits o f m ain ta in ing a safe, healthy and 
a ttrac tive  neighborhood.

CONSERVING SATISFACTORY HOUSING

The primary purpose of the housing program should be the e lim ina tion  o f ex is tin g  residen- 
t ia l b lig ^ a n < T th e  prevention of its  recurrence. Therefore, prime consideration should be given 
tcTprotecting the res identia l areas tha t now contain sa tis facto ry housing. Th is  ob je c tive  is  best 
accomplished through the combined efforts  o f loca l c itizens  and the C ity  government. The program 
should include:

1. Adoption and enforcement o f basic codes and ordinances.

2. Planned development of future res identia l areas.

3. Continued e ffo rt by the C ity  to provide basic u t i l i t ie s  in new res identia l 
areas.

4. Under the sponsorship o f the Planning Commission, in it ia te  a p u b lic ity  
program encouraging c itize n s  to maintain a ttrac tive , w e ll maintained dw e ll­
ings and neighborhoods.

IMPROVEMENTS THROUGH URBAN RENEWAL

Urban renewal is  construed generally as the process o f clearing and redeveloping slum 
areas or the rehab ilita tion  o f substandard housing through the combined efforts  of the local govern­
ment and the Federal government. Th is de fin ition  is not necessarily  sound, since c itie s  can 
undertake urban renewal w ith the ir own resources and w ithou t Federal fina nc ia l assistance.

'"■"-However, c learing and redeveloping large slum areas is beyond the financ ia l means o f most c it ie s .

785

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it 26

5 6



786
D efendants’ E x h ib it 26

The urban renewal process, where Federal ass is tance is s o lic ite d , cons is ts  o f the fo llo w ­
ing general procedures:

1. D esignation of a sp e c ific  area for urban renewal.

2. Determ ination that the area q u a lifie s  for Federal ass is tance under established 
governmental c r ite r ia .

3. A deta iled study of the area to determine w hich portions o f the area may 
be salvaged and which must be demolished and cleared.

4. The preparation o f p lans for rehousing fam ilie s  d isplaced from clearance 
areas.

5. The preparation of plans for redeveloping the area.

6. The purchase of properties to be redeveloped and the p rov is ion  o f safe, 
decent and san itary housing for fam ilies  to be displaced.

7. C learing o f the area.

8- C onstruction o f required pub lic  fa c il it ie s  such as water, s treets, and sewerage 
for the planned development.

Sale of the land for redevelopment in accordance w ith  predetermined plans. V

Without question, C la rksda le  badly needs urban renewal for the areas set forth p rev iously  \  
on the “ P r io ritie s  for Neighborhood A n a lyse s '' map (F igure V -2 ) . L ik e  m o sT~cff ie s ^ C I a ricsHa'Te" /
probably w il l  find i t  necessary to s o lic it  Federal assistance in undertaking th is  program. Under /  
present law, the Federal government w il l  absorb up to three-fourths o f the net loss incurred in / 
urban renewal p ro jec ts , the net loss being the d iffe rence in the sale price o f the redeveloped 
land and the cost for purchasing, clearing and redeveloping the urban renewal area. Present 
statutes a llow  the C ity  to c red it its  costs for pu b lic  improvements in the urban renewal area 
toward the C ity ’ s share o f the net pro ject loss.

ADMINISTRATION OF THE URBAN RENEWAL PROGRAM

In an tic ip a tion  o f future urban renewal pro jects , the C ity  o f C larksdale  has designated 
its  ex is ting  P ub lic  Housing A utho rity  as the agency to adm inister its  program. By v irtue  o f th is  
Agency's experience w ith  the C ity 's  housing needs, i t  appears to be the most q u a lified  organi­
zation to supervise C ia rksd a le 's  urban renewal efforts .

HOUSING FAMILIES DISPLACED BY URBAN RENEWAL ACTION

The re location of fam ilies  d isp laced by urban renewal action into safe, decent and 
sanitary housing is  a major problem to be faced prior to clearing any o f C ia rksd a le 's  c r it ic a l 
housing areas. While some fam ilies could be relocated into housing ava ilab le  on the local market, 
there lik e ly  would be an immediate need for add itiona l low cost or low rent housing. These un its 
genera lly are provided from one of the fo llow ing  sources:

1. Public Housing

Before implementation of an urban renewal pro ject, the C ity  may w ish to 
apply to the P ub lic  Housing A dm in is tra tion for the construction o f add itiona l 
low rent housing un its . P robably, many of the fam ilies  d isp laced from C ia rksda le ’ s 
slum areas would be unable to pay for p riva te ly  owned housing.

2. Privately Financed Housing

The C ity ’ s bu ilders, developers and financ ia l in s titu tio n s  should be made 
aware of the ir re sp o n s ib ilit ie s  to the ir community in providing additiona l housing 
at the least possib le  cost to displaced fam ilie s . Federal ass is tance is  ava ilab le  
in the form of FHA 221 Mortgage Financing, a llow ing  d isplaced fam ilie s  to pur­
chase homes on a low down payment, long term and low monthly payment basis.

57



D efendants’ E x h ib it 26

6 . F ire  Stations -  The C ity  currently m aintains 2 “ pumper" type fire  stations 
and one “ ladder-pum per" type fire  sta tion in the locations shown on Figure 
X -1 . Two of these stations are located adjacent to the Central Business 
D is tr ic t. The National Board of F ire  Underwriters recommends the fo llow ing  
maximum service rad ii for certain d is tr ic ts  and types o f service:

T A B LE  X A

RECOMMENDED FIRE STATION SERVICE RADII

D is tr ic t Ladder Station

Commercial or Industria l ] m ile
Residentia l 2 m iles
Low D ensity Residentia l —

The fo llow ing  recommendations are based upon the location o f present 
fa c il it ie s ,  the condition o f structures w ith in  the area they serve, and an tic ipated 
development o f the C ity .

a. Construct a new pumper station in the v ic in ity  of Lynn Street 
and Anderson Boulevard.

b. C onstruct a new pumper s tation in the v ic in ity  o f DeSoto 
Avenue extension and F riars P o in t Road.

7. Branch L ib ra ry  — A branch lib ra ry  should be established in or adjacent to 
the new high school for use by a ll residents on the extreme w est side of town.

Pumper Station

3/  m ile 
V /i m iles
3 m iles

SECTION II

P U BLIC  SCHOOLS

GENERAL

During the past decade growth in student enrollm ent w ith in  the C larksdale  School D is tr ic t 
has resulted in additions to a ll ex is ting  schools and construction o f 6 new schools, includ ing 
the new high school under construction. The number o f enrollments has increased from 2,575 
to 4,802 students. Funds budgeted for school purposes have increased from $310,540 in 1950-51 
to $1,005,390 in 1960-61.

In the las t 10 years the C ity  has experienced a tota l population growth of 27.6 percent 
and a school enrollment growth of nearly 87 percent. Based on the needs of a projected population, 
to ta ling  approxim ately 40,000 persons by 1985, provis ion should be made for more new schools 
and classrooms in the bu ild ing program.

EXISTING SCHOOL F A C IL IT IE S

Only two schools w ith in  the en tire  school system conform to desirable standards w ith 
respect to tract size and playground area. Table X -B  summarizes ex is ting  school bu ild ing  and 
playground fa c il it ie s .

Present schools are w ell located to serve the developed areas o f the C ity . With the ex­
ception of the C ity ’ s fringe areas, most students are w ith in  w alk ing d istance of the ir schools. 
As the ou t-ly ing areas develop, additiona l schools w ill be needed and desirable standards can 
then be realized.

White Schools:

The area comprising Oakhurst Elementary, Dorr Junior High and Bobo Senior H igh is

117



grossly inadequate in s ize, to serve any one of the schools in d iv id u a lly , le t alone a ll three 
co lle c tiv e ly . The removal of the students from Bobo Senior High to the new high school in the 
1963-64 school year w ill help re lieve  on ly a small part of th is  problem. Upon re loca tion  of the 
high school, Dorr Junior High w ill take over old Bobo Senior H igh, in add ition to  its  present 
fa c il it ie s .  T h is  manuever w ill a llow  Dorr to achieve desirab le  classroom standards; however, 
it  w il l s t i l l  be inadequate in terms of proper s ite  acreage. Thus, the s ite  problem w ill be prolonged 
un til it  is  possib le  to re locate Dorr Junior H igh, as recommended by the Proposed School P lan. 
With the exception o f K irkpa trick  Elementary, the remaining w h ite  schools are below desirable 
s ite  standards. Except for Dorr Jun ior H igh, w h ite  school classroom fa c il it ie s  are adequate under 
ex is ting  enrollm ents, as illu s tra te d  by Table X -C .

As the 1961 -62 school year began, C larksdale  had four schools serving elementary 
students, one junior high school and one senior high school. The school system is  organized on a 
standard 6-3-3 basis. The on ly new school planned in the immediate bu ild ing  program is  the 
senior high school now under construction, which w ill open in 1962.

Negro Schools:

C urrently , a ll Negro schools are over capacity in enrollm ent by national standards, but 
adequate under standards derived by the O ffice  of Superintendent of Schools (T ab le  X -C ). A lso, 
w ith  the exception o f Booker T . Washington Elementary, none o f these schools have s ites  of 
su ff ic ie n t s ize (Table  X -B ).

Two elementary schools and one combined jun io r-sen io r high school serve C larksdale  s 
Negro students. There is  a th ird  elementary school, George T. O live r, now under construction. 
Its future students are now being instructed separately a t M yrtle  Hal! School. These students 
are carried on a separate ro ll,  lis t in g  them as students in George T. O live r School (Table X -C ).

The immediate bu ild ing program ca lls  for no new construction other than George T. 
O live r and some renovating being accomplished at H iggins Junior-Senior High School.

The Negro schools are organized on a 6-3-3 basis; however, for a ll p rac tica l purposes, 
the School Board handles them on a 6-6 basis, which is the way they are presented in th is  report.

788
D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it  26

118



TABLE X -B
SUMMARY OF EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES 

CLARKSDALE SCHOOL DISTRICT 
1961

Date of 
Original

No. of 
Standard Area of Site (Acres) Playground

School Grades Construction Classrooms Existing Required Area (Acres)

WHITE SCHOOLS 

Elementary
Eliza Clark 1 -6 1955 7 3.2 7 2.2
Heidelberg 1 -6 1950 16 4.8 10 3.5
Kirkpatrick 1 -6 1956 13 12.4 9 10.2
Oakhurst 1 -6 1916 13 1.5 9 0.5

Junior High
Elizabeth Dorr 7 -9 1919 22 2.5 23 0.8

Senior High
Bobo 10-12 1930 16 3.5 34 1.5
New (Coahoma County) 

NEGRO SCHOOLS

10-12 1961 40 44.5 42

Elementary
Myrtle Hall 1 -6 1920 18 2.8 11 1.1
George T. Oliver 1-6 1961 12 5.9 9 4.3
Booker T. Washington 1 -6 1960 16 15.5 10 13.3

Junior — Senior High
Higgins 7-12 1954 18 8.1 30 6.0

Plus A thletic
Field

D
efendants’ E

xhibit 26



790

TABLE X -C

CAPACITY OF SCHOOLS 

SEPTEMBER, 1961

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it  26

Name Capacity* Enrol Iment Variable
WHITE SCHOOLS

Eliza Clark 210 224 +14
Heidelberg 480 447 -33
Kirkpatrick 390 323 -67
Oakhurst 390 355 -35
E liz. Dorr Jr. High 550 645 +95
Bobo Sr. High 400 430 +30

NEGRO SCHOOLS

Myrtle Hall 540 (720)** 560 +20
Oliver 360 (480)** 510 +150
Washington 480 (640)** 616 +136
Higgins Jr. - Sr. 675 (810)** 692 +17

*Derived by using ratio of 30 pupiis/grade school classroom and 25 pup ils /jr. and sr. high
school classroom.

**Secondary figure derived by using the existing criteria of the Clarksdale school board of 
40 pupiis/classroom.

Source: Office of Superintendent of Schools, Clarksdale, M ississippi.

ENROLLMENT TRENDS
Total enrollment has increased in every year since 1950. However, th is growth has 

been irregular, with a biennial average increase of 11.5 percent. The largest increase in en­
rollment occurred between 1958 and 1960, when 358 more students were enrolled than in the 
previous two years.

White Enrollment:

Within the past 11 years white enrollment has grown at an average rate of 11.1 percent, 
the largest increase occurring during the 1952-54 period. Current figures indicate white en­
rollments increased 12.2 percent over the prior 1960-61 school year. (Table X -D ).

Negro Enrollment:

Negro enrollment for the period 1950-61 was very erratic, with the largest increase in 
enrollment (403 students) occurring during the 1958-60 period. The least growth occurred during 
the 1956-58 period, when an enrollment of only 11 students was recorded. Current enrollment 
figures reveal that Negro enrollment increased by only 121 students from the previous 1960-61 
school year.

120



791

D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it  26

TABLE X -D

ACTUAL ENROLLMENT FOR PERIOD 1950-61

White Negro
Year Grades Grades Sub- Grades Grades Sub-

Ending 1-6 7-12 Total 1-6 7-12 Tote 1 TOTAL
1950 711 584 1295 971 309 1280 2575
1952 832 615 1447 1209 327 1536 2983
1954 1004 697 1701 1289 510 1799 3500
1956 1109 781 1890 1365 478 1843 3733
1958 1217 825 2042 1378 476 1854 3896
1960 1277 883 2160 1641 616 2257 4417
1961* 1349 1075 2424 1686 692 2378 4802
*Figures for September, 1961

Source: Office of Superintendent of Schools, Clarksdale, M ississippi.

PROJECTED ENROLLMENT

Based upon a projected population of 40,000 by 1985 and the present plan of school 
organization, Table X -E  represents a summary of total estimated school enrollment, classroom 
needs, and site acreage required for the school d is tric t, in the next 25 years, it  is expected 
that the total school enrollment w ill more than double that of 1960.

While the transition from a predominately Negro to a predominately white community w ill, 
in all probability continue, the ratio of white pupils to total white population is expected to 
remain rather constant. The ratio of Negro pupils to total Negro population is expected to in­
crease gradually.

TABLE X -E

PROJECTED SCHOOL ENROLLMENT AND NEEDS

Proposed Additional Area of
Name Capacity Rooms Needed Site (Acres)

WHITE SCHOOLS

Eliza Clark 300 3 10
Heidelberg 600 4 11
Kirkpatrick 600 7 11
Oakhurst 660 9 12
Proposed #1 510 17 10
Proposed #2 510 17 10
Proposed #3 510 17 10
Proposed #4 510 17 10
Proposed Jr. High 1200 50 32
New High School 1400 16 44

NEGRO SCHOOLS
Myrtle Hall 735 3 12
George T. Oliver 595 5 11
Booker T, Washington 735 5 12
Higgins Jr. - Sr. 1620 36 40

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D efen dan ts’ E x h ib it  26

PROPOSED SCHOOL PLAN

The expected growth and changing composition of the community and its population 
must be considered in preparation of a plan and program for the future development of public 
school fa c ilitie s . These plans must be coordinated with other features such as zoning, major 
thoroughfares and recreational fac ilities .

Future School Sites:

Suggested locations for future schools are shown on Figure X - 2. In choosing these 
sites, the following locational and spatial standards were used as criteria:

1. As a general rule, elementary students should not be required to travel more 
than one-half mi le to school.

2. The suggested locations for future schools are in areas that w ill be zoned 
as residential.

• 3. Since secondary schools must serve larger areas than elementary schools, 
the suggested sites for these schools are near major tra ffic  arteries. However, 
where possible, locations fronting such arteries have been avoided.

4. The suggested school sites are located in areas which w ill be re latively 
free of smoke, polluted air and noise.

5. Locations near railroads and non-fire resistant buildings have been avoided.

6. Sites for elementary schools contain at least 10 acres of suitable terrain.

7. Junior High School sites contain at least 20 acres with one additional 
acre for each 100 students in enrollment.

8. High School sites contain at least 30 acres with one additional acre for 
for each 100 students in enrollment.

9. Where possible, proposed school sites were correlated with and are in 
proximity to existing or planned recreational areas.

Probable Building Needs:

The following summary of future building needs is based on estimated future enrollment 
and ciassroorn needs, and the following criteria  as to size:

TABLE X -F

STANDARDS FOR SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION

Possible Standard Desi red Standard
School Students Total No. of Total No. of
Type Per Room Rooms Students Rooms Students

Elementary 30 12-30 360 - 900 12-22 360-660
Junior High 25 24-60 600-1500 24-40 600-1000
Senior High 25 40-80 1000-2000 40-60 1000-1500

White Elementary Schools:
With classroom additions to Heidelberg and Kirkpatrick, it  is possible that classroom 

space w ill be adequate through 1968. By 1970, about 9 additional classrooms w ill be needed 
at Oakhurst School. These classrooms could be provided when Dorr Junior High is relocated. 
During the period 1968- 1985, it  is estimated that 4 new elementary schools of 17-20 classrooms 
each wi II be needed.

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C O M P R E H E N S IV E  C IT Y  PLA N  

C L A R K S D A L E ,  M IS S IS S IP P I

COMMUNITY FACUTES
M IC H A E L  B A K E R . JR.. INC.

CONSULTING ENGINEERS ------  P L AN N ER S
ROCHESTER. PA. JACKSON. MISS.

M arch, 1962

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79 3



794

Clarksdale School District Composite Map

(Filed by the Board on August 10, 1964)

(See Opposite) US?"



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ME1LEN PRESS INC. —  N. Y. C.