Jackson Municipal Separate School District v. Evers Mimeographed Record Vol. III

    IN THE

UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS

FOR THE

F I F T H  C I R C U I T  

No. 21851

JACKSON MUNICIPAL SEPARATE 
SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL,

APPELLANTS

VERSUS

DARRELL KENYATTA EVERS, ET AL,
APPELLEES

Volume III

Appeals from the United States District Court 
for the Southern District of Mississippi, 

Jackson Division

MIMEOGRAPHED RECORD



VOLUME III
I N D E X Page

No.

Transcript of Testimony
Testimony: DR. FRANK C. MCGURK

Intervenor's Exhibit No. 8: Statement 
Intervenor's Exhibit N o . 9 ‘ Report 
Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 10: Article 

Testimony: Dr. ERNEST VAN DEN HAAG
Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 11: Summary 

Testimony: DR. ROBERT E. KDTTNER
Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 12: Statement 
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(R-514) VOLUME in 408

(Wednesday, May 20, 1964, the tria l was resumed)

MR. LEONARD: We will ca ll D r. Frank C. McGurk, 

Professor of Psychology, Alabama College. He has not been 

sworn.

(The witness was duly sworn)

DR. F .  C. J .  McGURK, called as a witness and having been duly 

sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LEONARD:

Q. Mr. McGurk, would you please identify yourself? What is  your 

present employment ?

A. Professor of Psychology at Alabama College.

Q. Have you done any prior teaching at any other institutions?

A. Taught at the University of Pennsylvania, Gatholic University, at 

Lehigh University, West Point, Villanova University.

Q. That's the United States Military Academy?

A. It is .

Q. What degrees do you hold?

A. Bachelor of Science, Master of A rts from the University of Penn­

sylvania, PHD in Psychology from Catholic University.

Q. What subject was your master in?

A. Psychology.

Q. Are you a member of any professional organizations?

A. I am.

Q. Would you please state those to us, any of the principal organiza­



409

tions of which you are a member? (R-515)

A. I am a member of the executive board of American Institute of 

Medical Climatology; member of American Psychological A sso­

ciation; member of the American Eugenics .Society; and a member 

of the Society of Sigma P s i.

Q. Is  Sigma P s i a  professional honor society?

A. It Is the professional research  honor society.

Q. Thank you.

MR. LEONARD: I will offer in evidence a statement of the 

qualifications of D r. F , C. J ,  McGurk, Professor of Psychology, 

Alabama College, and ask that it be marked in evidence.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 8)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. D r. McGurk, have you published any work in the field of racia l 

psychology?

A. I have.

Q. Gould you give us some examples?

A. The firs t one appeared in 1943. Would you like me to detail them?

Q. No, just generally.

A. The fir s t  article was in 1943, and it dealt with school ability of 

children in Richmond, Virginia. 1951 I published an article 

dealing with the test scores of Negro and white children in the

North. 1953, two studies dealing with Negro and white differences. 

1956, a study, and in 1959 or '60 another study dealing with the



410

same m aterial.

Q. What was your subject of your doctorate thesis? (R-516)

A. It was a study of the test score differences of Negro and white high 

school seniors.

Q. Is  that one of the studies you have just referred  to?

A. It is  one of the studies.

Q. As a matter of background, Doctor, to what extent is there any 

meaning in the testing such as you were doing in term s of predict­

ability or academic or scholastic success?

A. The psychological tests  are measures of the ability of a group of 

children to achieve in school. They are measures of school 

achievement abilities.

Q. In other words, the group's probable success and aptitude can be 

shown by testing?

A. Y es.

Q. Has the testing which you have done and of which you know in this 

field indicated that there is any substantial difference between 

Negro and white children as a group?

A. Well, on every study that has ever been done, as far as I know, the 

Negro's average score has always been lower than the white aver­

age score.

Q» Do they diflier at all in their educational aptitude by subject m atter, 

as far as you know?

A. To the extent that these tests are measures of scholastic achieve­

ment, there is a difference.

Q. In other words, the tests which are currently used, by and large,



411

show a difference in scholastic achievement by subject? (R-517)

A. The tests on the face do not; by Implication, they do. Since the 

tests are related to achievement, then one can project from the 

knowledge of the test score the scholastic achievement.

Q. Now, those are the mental maturity type tests that you are talking 

about now?

A. Y es, they are sometimes called that.

Q. And either by correlation or direct imputation the so-called 

achievement tests by subject matter then would follow this out?

A. Y es, but always by correlation.

Q. I see. Do you know of any explanation which has been given for 

these differences which has to any extent been studied by you?

A. Y es. I t ’s hard to say when it was f ir s t  announced, but the usual 

explanation is now known as the cultural hypothesis.

Q. Could you explain what that means and te ll us where it started?

A. I just don’t know where it started, but I do know that it is  held 

widely among sociologists, widely, and widely among some psy­

chologists. The point they try to make is these test score differ­

ences are caused, directly caused by differences in socio-econom ­

ic status, or culture status, that one group is more acculturaied 

than the other.

Q. In other words, if I understand this correctly, It is that (R-518) 

since the Negro in Am erica Is viewed as being in a lower cultural 

status than the white, as an assumption, I presume, for this 

theory?

A. That’s true.



412

Q. And the test resu lts will necessarily be lower?

A. Y es.

Q. Well, does the cultural hypothesis then say anything about how to 

change th is?

A. As stated by Kline berg, — and this is not a word for word state­

ment, but it 's  pretty close to the word for word meaning —  that 

as the socio-economic status of the Negro as a group becomes 

closer to the socio-economic status of the whites as a group, test 

score differences will disappear.

Q. In other words, this hypothesis says that if you bring them up to 

the same socio-economic status, there will be no more difference 

between them in achievement or in mental maturity?

A. Well, even more than that, because as you bring them up to this 

identical, as you bring them from this status, then, that there will 

be a constant reduction in test score differences; as there is a 

constant reduction in socio-economic differences, there is  a con­

stant reduction in test score differences.

Q. Is  there any way that this hypothesis can be tested, Doctor?

A. Y es.

Q. How?

A. Well, I tested it in 1951. (R-519)

I simply measured the socio-economic status of a group of Negro 

and white children.

Q,. Before we come to that, has there been any other work done in an 

effort, before yours?

A. I think not.



413

Q. — In an effort to match socio-economic conditions? Have there 

been any reliable studies in the field, other than yours, which have 

used a broad sampling?

A. Y es. I think it might be well for me to modify what I just said. 

There have been studies prior to mine that did use socio-economic 

status as one of the test variables, but no studies prior to that 

attempted to show that as the difference decreased in socio­

economic status, the test differences decreased.

Q. I see. P rior to that tim e, they used static groups, I take it?

A. Y es, generally.

Q. In other words, it was just a simple equating, but without any 

effort to do it on a proportionate or percentage b asis? To find 

whether it increased variably.

A. Without any attempt to make a change in the variable called socio­

economic status.

Q. Were any studies made about the time of World War I?

A. During World War I, a study was done by a group of Army psy­

chologists headed by Yerkes, in which they tested a great number 

of white and Negro draftees.

Q. "What conclusion did they reach? (R-520)

A. Well, they came to the conclusion that for the nation as a whole, 

and pretty much state by state, that the Negro group overlapped 

the average score of the white group by about 27, 28, 29 percent.

Q. What overlap would mean that the two groups were the same ?

A. 50 percent.

Q. And the overlap found in World War I was 27 percent?



414

A. 27 to 30 percent.

Q. With the changes which have occurred In the culture of Americans 

since World War I, has this overlap substantially changed today? 

A. It has not decreased very much.

Q. Have there been studies on test score differences which you have 

prepared for your work? Are you fam iliar with the test score 

differences generally in the literature?

A. Y es.

Q. when you said before that they all show the same resu lts, that 

these differences in achievement, differences in mentality, do 

exist, are you saying that they are all consistent to this end? 

There are no contradictions in it?

A. It think it 's  fair to say that they are consistent. I know of no study 

that has ever been done, ever, in which the Negro group achieved 

an average score equal to the white group. I know of no study.

Q. Now, that would not be limited to the South, I take it?

A. No, no. No, no.

Q. Would it extend to areas where the general social status (R-521) 

was the sam e?

A. Y es.

Q. Do you know of any examples?

A. The earliest one I can think of is T an ser's study. T an ser's  study

was done in Kent County, Ontario, Canada, which was done in

1939. Now, Kent County was the northern terminus of the under-
who

ground railway during the Civil War, and most of the Negroes/got 

into Kent County were escapees from the United States, and they



415

were accepted In Canada pretty much without prejudice and without 

any discrimination, and yet the average scores of the children who 

were their descendants is about equal to the average scores of the 

Negroes in New York City —  that is, considerably below whites.

Q. What was the percentage of overlap which Tanser found?

A. My recollection is that it ’s around 17 to 20 percent.

Q. In other words, less than Yerkes found in V/orld War I on all 

Negroes in the United States, including the South?

A. Y es.

Q. Was a study ever made in this field by Bruce?

A. Bruce did a study in this country. He was concerned with Virginia 

children, young Virginia Children.

Q. Would you identify Bruce for us?

A. Bruce is  a psychologist who is now out of the field. She is married, 

I understand, and is  no longer participating in these endeavors.

Q. Who was she with? (R-522)

A. She was at Columbia University, if I reca ll correctly , and was, I 

think, a  pupil of Klineberg.

Q. What was the subject of her study?

A. The Virginia children, Negro and 'White, in the lower grades. She 

matched a group of white children against Negro children for scores 

on socio-economic measure which was currently used at that tim e, 

and found that even when socio-economic status was more equal- — 

she called it “practically equal11 at f ir s t  — even under those c i r ­

cumstances, the Negro scores were much lower than the white

scores.



416

Q. What degree of overlap did she find?

A. 10 or 15 —  Around 15 percent, I believe.

Q. In other words, considerably lower than the overlap of all the 

scores of Negroes tested in World War I?

A, Y es, much lower.

Q. Even after a ll tills —  Even after she had made this equating of the 

social conditions of her white and Negro subjects?

A. Y es.

Q. Did D r. Shuey ever make a study in that field?

A. Shuey studied a group of very select students from a New York 

university.

Q. Would you identify D r. Shuey for us?

A. tShuey is now Professor of Psychology at Randolph - Macon College 

for Women.

Q. Has she ever written in this field that you know of?

A. Y es. She wrote the study on the New York group, and then she
(R-523)

is the author of the book known as TE3TING OF NEGRO IN TELLI­

GENCE.

Q. Is  that a  comprehensive book?

A. Very comprehensive.

Q. In your opinion, is it a valid text on the subject?

A. I think it is . I think it Is a  perfectly grand survey of the field.

Q. And what was D r. Shuey's work at New York University?

A. She selected her subjects so that she could match a Negro subject 

and a white subject when both of them were considered almost iden­

tica l In socio-economic status, and there were a number of match­



417

ing c rite r ia  so that a great many people were rejected  from her 

studies because they did not satisfy the criteria .

Q. Would you give us some examples of the c rite r ia  you are referring 

to that are used to measure socio-economic status?

A. In connection with Shuey, I can reca ll that one of the matching 

factors was the place of birth of the father. If the father of the 

subject was born out of the country, out of New York City that 

student was matched with someone whose father was born out of 

New York City. If the subject's father were born abroad, then 

that subject would have to be matched with another whose father 

was born abroad. If the subject had attended a segregated school 

and had moved North, then that subject was matched with another 

one who, as closely as possible, approximated the type of school 

from which the subject came. (R-524) Of course, that was not 

possible in all cases, but matching was exceedingly close accord­

ing to what she thought.

Q. How about salaries, wages?

A. Wage was a matching factor.

Q. Rent paid?

A. I don't reca ll that that was specifically a matching factor.

Q. Well, are there any economic factors generally, as to the family 

background as well as the amount —

A. Education of the parent was a matching factor.

Q. The type of education which had already been gotten?

A. And the amount.

Q. What was Shuey's conclusion in this?



418

A. Shuey found that the overlapping was somewhere in the neighbor­

hood of 20 percent. Somewhere in that neighborhood.

Q. In other words, a gain, less  of an overlap than was found on all 

Negroes and whites in World War I by Y erkes?

A. Y es, in spite of the fact that this was an exceedingly selective 

group. Exceedingly selective.

Q. Has any study been made, to your knowledge, by Brown In this?

A. Brown did the study In the Minneapolis kindergarten.

Q. Who was D r. Brown?

A, I don't know Brown. I don't know whether he is an educator or a 

psychologist or what.

Q. What is the nature of his study^

A. He studied the test scores of white and Negro kindergarten (R-525) 

children in Minneapolis. That's preschool children, and I assume 

- - h e  didn't state in the study, but I assume the children were 

about five years old.

Q. Did he match them at all for status?

A. He made no attempt to match them for status, but commented that 

since they were children and since they were young and attending 

kindergarten that we could assume that the children were some­

what more equal in socio-economic status than if they were older 

children; since they were in kindergarten, there would be less  

disparity in socio-economic status.

Q. What overlap did he find in kindergarten?

A. 31 percent. Now, he did not say this, but by re-studying his 

figures, I computed 31 percent. He stated that there was no



418

difference between the white and Negro children. As a matter of 

fact, the difference is  very large and statistically significant.

Q. And on the tests which yon have known of and on the figures which 

we have had, if th ere 's  a 31 percent overlap of the kindergarten 

grade, does that stay the same thereafter, or does it tend to di­

verge ?

A. That 31 percent is the largest percent of overlapping of which I 

know.

Q. This is  on kindergarten children?

A. On kindergarten children.

Q. And that as we came up to World War I, the age of the draftees in
it

World War I, /was 27 percent.

A. 27 percent. (R-526)

Q. And when we got to the people by D r. Shuey at NYU, it was what?

A. I think 17 to 20 percent, in that range,

Q. Thank you.

Do you know of a  study made by Rhoads and others?

A. Rhoads and others did a study in Philadelphia.

Q. Would you Identify them for me ?

A. Rhoads was a medical doctor, physician, a pediatrician, I believe, 

interested at the time in the effects of canned milk on the growth 

rate of children. The psychological study was an off-shoot of that,

Q. What was the nature of the study he made?

A. The children were very young, somewhere, - I think the study 

started when the child was somewhere around six months of age. 

And there were several physical examinations. As I reca ll, the



420

children were examined physically periodically every six  months, 

and those children who failed to keep an appointment to come In 

for the six month check-up were automatically dropped from  the 

study. Now, that means each child was examined physically so 

and so many tim es during the study, and the psychological tests 

were given when these children were In the neighborhood of age 3, 

so that they had had a lot of study prior to that, and by the time 

we got to age 3, all the people who were ready to drop out had 

dropped out.

Q. Was there any matching for socio-economic status? (R-527)

A. Not deliberately, but since the study was done on children who were 

called "deprived ch ild ren ,!i and since all of them lived in the slum 

area of Philadelphia, it was assumed that most of them were of 

most comparable socio-economic status than would have been 

under other circum stances.

Q. And what was the overlap he found?

A. D r. Rhoads didn't publish any overlap, but again, computing on the 

basis of his figures, my recollection is  that it was around 25 p er­

cent, plus or minus,

Q. Now, what was your study in this field?

A. My study was - - -  Each one of these studies that I have talked to you 

about was in some way defective; they either matched socio­

economic status by hoping that it was equal, or they did some such 

thing that wasn't quite satisfactory. What I wanted to do was to 

match the socio-economic status on some objective and clear-cu t 

basis and hold to it, and find out whether, as Klineberg stated,



421

there was a change in test score difference as there was a change 

In socio-economic status. This would be, in effect, testing the 

culture hypothesis.

So I developed a rating instrument for rating socio­

economic status of the subject, and then on the basis - —

Q. ---D escrib e  It for us.

A. Y es. It was what is called the Sims Rating Scale, S -I-m -s , the 

Sims Rating Scale. It had been used for years prior to the time I 

found it, and when I found it, it had some anachronisms {R-528} 

in it, such as, "Does your family have a telephone?" Well, by the 

time I got hold of it, everybody had a telephone so that it doesn't 

much m atter. Things like that had to be gotten out. So we tested 

the test and threw out a lot of the items that were not discrim inat­

ing between people - - -  that is, everybody had a telephone, that's 

not an important question, or if nobody had something, that's not 

important.

I ended up with fourteen things that were important:

One was the mother's education; the father's education; the occu­

pation of either the mother or the father, depending on who it was 

who earned the living for the family; the membership in clubs for 

the mother —  Fam ilies where the mothers belong to clubs are 

usually higher in status than fam ilies where mothers do not belong 

to clubs. I found the number of books in the home an important 

thing. And altogether, fourteen of such item s, which I could enu­

merate for you exactly if you wish.

Q. And this was the basis of your pairing of these groups?



422

A. This was, but in this fashion: The score that the Negro subject 

obtained on this rating scale became the criterium  for matching 

a white subject with him.

Q. In other words, they were paired?

A. They were paired, so that the white subject was paired permanently 

with a Negro subject, so that in each case each of (R-529) the two 

children had exactly the same scores on the socio-economic scale , 

or, if that was not possible, then the white subject had a lower 

score in every case. In no case —  We can say it this way: In no 

case did the white have a higher socio-economic status than the 

Negro.

Q. In the test itself and in your test construction, D r. McGurk, would­

n 't you nevertheless have favored the white group by having cultural 

questions in your test?

A. In the test, there’s a possibility, but in this socio-economic busi­

ness that we're talking about, that did not enter. That's c lear.

Q, In other words, the background was the same in both cases for each 

of the pairs,, or the white was lower?

A. Y es.

Q. Now, as to the construction of the test which you gave itse lf?

A. The measuring instrument,

Q. The measuring instrument. We re you able to remove the cultural 

effects from that?

A. In part. In part. Now, what I did there was to go through a file of 

old psychological tests, and at random I picked every 10 or 12 

questions and ended up with about 300 questions. We submitted the



423

300 questions to several groups of children and threw away all the 

questions that were failed by 80 percent and threw away all the 

questions that were passed by 80 percent of the sample. That took 

care of the easy questions aid the hard questions. Then I had the 

remaining (R-530) questions which were now down to, le t 's  say, 

125 —  I've forgotten now exactly —  but I took the remaining 

questions to a group of school teachers, sociologists and psychol­

ogists and others, a  group of about 500 actually, and I asked them 

if they would rate these questions into three p iles. I had the ques­

tions printed one question on a single 2 by 3 card, and I gave them 

this great big stack of cards and said, "Rate these questions; put 

over here those you think are heavily culturally loaded, and put 

over here those you think are not heavily culturally loaded, and 

put in the center those you think you can't make up your mind 

about."

Unfortunately, out of the 500 or so people, less than 50, I 

guess, separated the questions. The others either got confused or 

didn't feel like doing it. 3o that on the basis of between 50 and 75 

people, I had then a pile of questions that school teachers and 

sociologists considered culturally loaded and another pile not con­

sidered by them heavily culturally loaded. Now, th ere 's no ques­

tion about getting rid of culture. You just don't do it. But - —

Q. Well, we're speaking about It here. What does culture mean in a 

test question?

A. A sociologist named H arrell wrote a great, big, thick treatise on 

it, and he said "I don't know."



424

Q. Have you improved on that?

A. I  have not.

Q. AH right. What did you do with the heavily loaded cultural (R-531) 

questions?

A. Then I re administered these two piles; the heavily loaded questions 

and the not heavily loaded questions were re administered to a 

group of subjects, and I counted the number of subjects who got 

each question correct, so that for, le t's  say, 125 questions I could 

then put the questions into order by whether they were culture 

questions or not culture questions in term s of the hardest down to 

the lowest, in term s of the percentage of people who got each 

question correct. Then I paired them, so that for a cultural ques­

tion passed by 65 percent of the subjects, I matched with it a non- 

cultural question passed by 65 percent of the subjects; and a cultu­

ra l question passed by 25 percent of the subjects was paired with a 

non-cultural question passed by 25 percent of the subjects. The 

result was 74 pairs of questions. And that's the test.

Q. AH right. Would you state to me what the results of the test 

showed?

A. The test was administered to every high school that I could get into 

in Pennsylvania and New Jersey , all unsegregated.

Q. Now, when you say "unsegregated, " they actually had Negro pupils 

in them, or was it simply state law that they weren't separated?

A. They actually had Negro children in them.

Q. And all of the Negro children you took in this test were attending 

an Intermixed high school.



425

A. Y es, and had been all their lives.

Q. And had been all their lives.

A. There are only fourteen schools that we could get into. For one 

reason or another, the schools were inaccessible or did not wish 

to cooperate, but we administered this test in fourteen different 

high schools in ooutheastern Pennsylvania and Northern New 

Jersey .

The results came out something like this: As far as total 

score is concerned —  that is , culture score plus non-culture 

score - - - a s  far as total score is concerned, the whites were high­

er in average than the Negroes, and the overlap was about 27 per­

cent —  that is , 27 percent of the Negro children attained scores 

that were equal to or higher than the average score of the white 

children.

Q. In other words, exactly the same, essentially, as Yerkes had 

found in World War I?  —

A, Y es.

Q. - -  In 1916, on all Negroes of the United States, including the South?

A. Yes.

Q. And all schools, whether separate or mixed.

A. Well, I had. no segregated schools.

Q. No, I don’t mean that. In World War I. I assume the Negroes 

tested in World War I came from all types of schools?

A. Y es.

Q. And the overlap you determined from this culturally socio-CR-533) 

economically matched set, with Negroes who had been brought up

(R-532)



426

completely in interracial schools, was the same as in World War I 

for the entire country, without limitation?

A. Y es. - - "Without limitation?

Q. In other words, no limitation of the World War I figures. Everyone 

who fought in the services, I take it, was tested?

A. I don’t think so. There were some people taken in who were not 

examined. These were draftees. Volunteers I don't think were 

examined.

Q. I see.

Have you ever brought that study —  What was the date of 

that study?

A. This was in 1950, the spring of 1950.

Q. Did you at any time publish an article covering that work?

A. I did.

Q. Where?

A. It is  published on m icro-card, "Comparison of the T est Scores of 

Negro and White High School .Seniors," et cetera, Catholic Univer­

sity, Washington, D. C.

Q. I see. And have you at any time done any further work to either 

bring that up to date or to check it further?

A. Y es. I became Interested in the figures showing the relationship 

between the culture and the non-culture scores. Now, we were 

calling the the scores culture and non-culture, with (R-534) the 

understanding that the culture scores were those considered heavily

laden with culture, and the others not heavily laden with culture; 

so for the sake of ease of speaking, we refer to them as the culture



427

scores and the non-culture scores.

Now, another one of the hypotheses that had been advanced 

by Klineberg and some of his associates was that the reason Neg­

roes obtained such low average scores on psychological tests was 

because the tests were weighted with culture, so to test this hypo­

thesis, I compared the culture scores - -

Q. - -  This isn 't the same as culture hypothesis?

A. No, this is somewhat different, but it 's  pinned to it.

Q. Distinguish the two for me.

A. Well, the culture hypothesis is a  generic statement of the problem, 

that the reason for any test score difference, culture or non - 

culture, any test score difference is  because of the culture factor. 

Those who have the best culture, the widest possible culture, 

make better scores on psychological tests than those whose culture 

is restricted . That is the general statement of the culture hypo­

thesis. Now, as a sub-statement, Klineberg had announced that 

the Negro pupils who had restricted  cultures were also deficient in 

their performance on verbally weighted m aterial.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Verbally weighted. Such a question as this: "Mozart scored his 

symphonies in the key of what?"

Q. That would be —  ?

A. That would be culturally loaded. (R-535)

Q. You think that would be culturally loaded?

A. Oh, very. Very.

Q. What would verbal be, as opposed to that?



428

A. Same thing. It was assumed that verbal questions were culturally 

loaded.

Q. In other words, anything that you read is  culturally loaded, in the 

sense that you have to learn to read?

A. I suppose you could drive it back to anything in words.

Q. Anything in words, you have to have a culture in order to be able 

to appreciate it. How do you avoid this in testing?

A. Well, I  started to say, there is  no clear understanding of what is 

a culture thing and what is a non-culture thing because nobody 

knows what culture is .

Q. Well, in this further test, what specifically were you trying to de­

term ine.

A. I was trying to determine whether the test score difference,

whether the Negro-white difference, was greater on the culturally 

loaded questions than it was on the unloaded, or so-called non- 

cultural questions.

Q. In other words, the difference between whether they can recognize 

the key of Mozart, one of M ozart's works, on the one hand, as 

against being able to recognize that music has tempo?

A. Well, as an example of a non-culture question, I think we used 

this: "The sun r ise s  in the what?" Because it was assumed that 

anybody who had lived long enough to see the sun come up and who 

could talk had some idea—  and certainly (R-536) any child going 

to school.

Q. In other words, if he had what we might call orientation.

A. Y es.



429

Q. To whom was this test given?

A. It was given to the same group of children that I worked on before, 

the Negro and white high school seniors in Northern New Jersey  

and Southeastern Pennsylvania high schools.

Q. And how did you divide them for this purpose ?

A. Just by race at firs t, and I observed that the difference between the 

Negro and the white pupils on the culturally loaded questions was 

sm aller than the difference between the Negro and the white chil -  

dren on the non-cultural questions.

Q. What you’re saying, if I understand it, is that the more culturally 

loaded the question was, the greater the degree of overlap, the 

less  the variation between the Negro and white?

A. Exactly, which is exactly opposite to what the hypothesis of the 

sociologists would have you believe,

Q. Is  there any way you could further check this study?

A. No, I didn't have an opportunity.

Q. Did you divide your subjects at a ll into good or bad perform ers?

A. No. I later divided them into high and low socio-economic groups.

Q. How did it come out?

A. The point I was testing there was, if the culture hypothesis has any 

opportunity to work at all, if it 's  of any importance, certainly the 

subjects with the highest socio-economic status should show a c e r ­

tain ratio difference as compared with the (K-537) subjects of the 

lowest socio-economic status. So what I did was to take 25 per­

cent, the highest quarter, of the Negro pupils whose socio-econom­

ic scores were the highest, and along with them, of course, went



430

the white children who were matched with them. It was not the 

highest quarter of whites; it was simply the highest 25 percent of 

Negroes, plus the whites who had been permanently matched with 

them. And I compared their performance with the lowest 25 p er­

cent of Negroes and the white subjects who had been matched with 

them. So I have now two groups. I call this one the high socio­

economic group and this one the low socio-economic group.

And I found this: that there was practically no difference. 

The differences between the whites and the Negroes in the low 

socio-economic group was practically zero; the significance was 

very low. But when I compared the Negroes and whites of the 

higher socio-economic group, I got tremendously big differences, 

statistically significant, which was exactly opposite to what the 

culture hypothesis said, exactly opposite.

Q. In other words, the higher the social condition of the Negro in ­

volved, the greater the disparity between the groups?

A. Y es. The greater the opportunity for socio-economic expression--

Q. And this is in addition to the fact that the more culturally loaded 

the questions on the test Itself, the greater the d isparity?(R -538)

A. Y es.

Q. Well, in term s of a total conclusion, do you feel as a result that 

the culture hypothesis still has any validity to It?

A. This I can say without any qualification: There is  absolutely no 

evidence anywhere from anybody that the cultural hypothesis has 

any validity.

Q. In other words - -  well, there must be statements by somebody.



431

A. Oh, I said evidence.

Q. I ’m sorry.

A, And I don't mean evidence in the legal sense. I mean factual 

evidence.

Q. Test evidence?

A. Y es. Scores. Numbers.

Q. There is no study that shows It?

A. None.

Q. And you feel that your study has disproved it?

A, L e t's  put it this way: All of the studies that are extant show exact­

ly the opposite. All of the studies.

Q. Of your studies?

A. My study too. Show exactly the opposite.

Q. In other words, your study is consistent with all other and earlier 

studies?

A. Y es.

Q. And as far as your professional knowledge goes, there are no 

actual test results to the contrary? (R-539)

A. Exactly.

Q. T ell me this: Have you published this m aterial anywhere? Have 

you published the results of these studies?

A. I have.

Q. In what publications?

A. The first was the m icro-card that I discussed with you, and that 

study was then re-w ritten and published in MANKIND QUARTERLY, 

the exact volume and pages I don't know, but it was published in



432

MANKIND QUARTERLY. The result of the culture non-verbal 

questions was published in THE JOURNAL OF APPLIED PSY­

CHOLOGY. The study of the high and low socio-economic groups 

was published in the JOURNAL OF ABNORMAL AND SOCIAL 

PSYCHOLOGY.

Now, there have been subsequent papers in which I have 

expanded and defended this.
in

Q. Has this ever been reported on/any of the magazines? Has your 

study ever been reported on that you know of? Have you ever 

summarized it for any magazine?

A. U. S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT.

Q. When was that?

A. That was in 1956.

Q. I show you, D r. McGurk, a Zerox reprint of pages 92 through 96 

of U. S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT for the week of September 21, 

1956, entitled "Psychological T ests — Ax Scientists Report on 

Race D ifferen ces," and ask if this is what you have just referred  

to?

A. Y es, this is the study. (R-540)

NR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I offer in evidence D r. 

McGurk's report on the studies to which he has just testified.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence and marked.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 9}

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. Was any reply made to your articles?



433

A. Tothis article, yes.

Q. Have you ever written a rebuttal?

A, No, I  was forbidden to.

Q. By whom?

A. By the college at which I was teaching.

Q. For what reason?

A. I don't really know. The reason given was that they didn't want to 

get into controversial issues.

Q. Well, if what you have told us is  correct, D r. McGurk, if a ll of 

the studies and all of the tests that have been made show the same 

conclusion, could it hardly be a controversial issue?

A. Well, I  didn't feel it was controversial either, but college adminis­

trators have different ideas, I suppose.

Q. In any event, you did not publish a rebuttal, at the specific request 

of your university?

A. Y es, because certain organizations had visited them in an attempt 

to have me discharged.

Q. Have you ever written for HARVARD EDUCATIONAL REVIEW?

A. I wrote an article to the HARVARD EDUCATIONAL REVIEW in
(R-541)

answer to one they published. Now, incidentally, it might be in­

teresting for the record that my suspension from publication lasted 

two years. After two years the university lifted my ban.

Q. Has this ever happened to any other professors that you know of?

A. Specifically, of people whom I know, just one. And this is  simply 

his own word of mouth conversation.

Q. I won't ask for it then. In any event, after the two years you were



434

allowed to write again?

A. Y es.

Q. And did yon at that time respond to an article in the HARVARD 

EDUCATIONAL REVIEW?

A. I did.

Q. What was the nature of that?

A. Two men at Harvard, one an undergraduate by the name of Deme- 

rath, and a person by the name of McCord, sociologist, wrote an 

article assailing my findings on certain points, which I answered 

point by point in an article entitled " 'Negro vs. White Intelligence" 

-  An A nsw er."

Q. I show you a Zerox reprint of pages 54 through 62, Volume xxix,

No. 1, of the HARVARD EDUCATIONAL REVIEW, Winter, 1959, 

entitled " 'Negro vs. White Intelligence' - An Answer, " by Frank 

C. J .  McGurk, and I ask you if this is the article to which you 

have just referred ?

A. It is . (R-542)

MR. LEONARD: I offer in evidence at this time the 

article just identified by the witness.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence and marked as 

an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 10)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. What does this leave you with, Dr__ McGurk, as an explanation of 

the differences in learning patterns and aptitudes which we have



435

been considering in this case?

A. To the extent that these psychological tests  are predictors of 

school achievement* —

Q. Are they?

A. And they are, but not perfect ones. — It leaves simply this: That 

it should not be expected that white and Negro children should 

achieve, on the whole - - i t  should not be expected that they should 

achieve the same amount of achievement in school, that there will 

be a difference in achievability in school subjects.

Q. Do you think this difference is educationally significant, D octor?

A. It would be a guess now, and It would be Inferred from my other 

data, and the evidence, and what I see is that it Is a big difference 

quite a big difference.

Q. Would it suggest to you that a difference in rate of teaching would 

be of advantage between the two groups?

A. Yes, for the same reason that it 's  always an advantage when you 

have slower learning people. (R-543)

Q. Would it suggest to you different emphasis on various parts of the 

curriculum?

A. Y es, I think it would.

Q. Would it suggest to you possibly different treatment in the teaching 

of some of these subjects?

A. Y es. These are all things which one could infer out of the factual 

knowledge.

Q. And would it suggest to you that for the maximum and best educa­

tion of the children of each of these groups that the type of educa-



436

tlon that they should be given should be different?

A. Y es, to the extent that we have this difference in educability. It 

would seem more efficient on the whole

Q. —  Assuming that you wanted to match the educability of each of 

these groups.

A. It would be more efficient on the whole to separate and teach them 

by their educability groups.

Q. T ell me one last thing, from your studies: If we are to intermix 

white and Negro children, have your studies Indicated whether 

this will ra ise  the so-called cultural level of the Negro children?

A. No, there is no evidence at all that it will.

Q. From  the extent of your studies, would you say actually that the 

groups will get a better education?

A. No, I have no evidence to say that.

Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. (R-544)

THE GOURT: Any questions by the defendants?

MR. CANNADA: We have none, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any cross examination, Mr. B e ll?

MR. B E L L : No. We move to strike all of the testimony 

of D r. McGurk on the same basis, that the sole Issue in this case 

is whether or not the schools are segregated. The testimony that 

he has offered is not relevant on this point, and we move it be 

stricken.

THE COURT: I overrule the motion and overrule the 

objection.

MR. CANNADA: On behalf of the defendants, we would



437

like to adopt the testimony of D r. McGurk.^

THE COURT: Very well. Let the record so show that you 

adopt it.

You may step down, Doctor.

(Witness excused)

DR. ERNEST VAN DEN HAAG, called as a witness and having been 

duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

B Y  MR. LEONARD: As the witness has a number of papers with him 

I wonder if we need a short recess  for him to - - -  

THE WITNESS: I have them in order.

B Y  MR. LEONARD:

Q. Would you please state your name and present employment?

A. I am D r. Ernest Van Den Haag, Adjunct Professor, New York 
(R-545)

University, and Lecturer in the new School of Social Research, 

New York.

Q. What are you a lecturer In?

A. Sociology and Psychology and —

Q. Is  that both undergraduate and graduate, or which?

A. Both. And also a psychoanalyst in private practice.

Q. Have you lectured at any other universities?

A. Y es, I have lectured at Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Princeton.

Q. Have you been designated to give the Freud Memorial Lecture this 

year?

A. Y es, I have.

Q. Would you te ll us something about that?



438

A. I t ’s one reason why I'm  somewhat In a hurry to go back to New 

York, because I have to give it at the end of this week, and it is 

regarded as a very high honor for people in my profession _

Q. Where have you studied?

A. I studied in Europe and Florence, Italy; in Naples; and in P a ris . 

I received —

Q. Have you taken any degrees in this country?

A. Y es. I received a Master of Art at the State University of Ohio,

and a PHD at New York University.

Q. What was the doctorate in?

A. My doctorate was in economics.

Q. Are you a member of any professional organizations?

A. Y es. I am a Fellow of the American Sociological Association;

the Royal Economic Society; a member of the New York Academy 
(R-546)

of Sciences; and a number of other things.

Q. Have you published any m aterial in your field, Doctor?

A_ Well, I  published three books and about 20 to 30 articles, and a 

number of chapters in books edited by other persons. I hope you 

don't want me to quote them all.

Q. No. Thank you.

Did you write a book in 1956 entitled EDUCATION AS AN 

INDUSTRY?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. In 1957, THE FABRIC OF SOCIETY?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. And in MASS CULTURE in 1957, "Psychoanalysis and Its Discon­



439

ten ts"?

A. Y es, I wrote that article , but not in MASS GULTURE. That came 

out in a book called PSYCHOANALYSIS, SCIENTIFIC METHOD 

AND PHILOSOPHY.

MR. LEONARD: At this time, Your Honor, I offer in 

evidence a summary of the qualifications of the witness, which the 

witness has just testified to.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 11)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. T e ll me something about your area of study, in term s of social 

and psychological groups.

A. I am basically interested in the individual in the relation to his

group or his various group memberships. Sometimes that's called 

social dynamics.

Q. I wonder if you would just explain that to us a little further.
(R-547)

Social dynamics. Is that a branch of ppsychology or sociology or 

which?

A. It 's  a branch of both, sort of overlaps. What I  am Interested in is  

the individual personality as it is formed by the groups of which the 

individual Is or becomes a member.

Q. You mean the effect of the group on the individual?

A. Right.

Q. As well as the individual on the group?

A. Right.



440

Q. When you say the "effect" on the individual, are you referrin g  to 

physical effects, mental effects?

A. Psychological effects. My interest is in the way the individual 

form s an image of himself, form s his own identity by reflecting 

the attitude of the group toward him, and engaging in relationships 

with various groups.

Q. Tell me, what is the effect of th is? You say, how he form s these 

things. What difference does it make to the individual?

A. Well, the individual becomes conscious of himself, of his own 

abilities, capacities of reception or rejection of the approval, 

which has an encouraging effect, or disapproval, which has a 

discouraging effect, of other people; and this consciousness is 

what ultimately helps him to form his own character and his own 

identity, and to motivate him one way or the other.

Q. Does this affect his ability to study, for example?

A. Y es, among other things it does. It affects his whole (R-548) 

personality and, certainly, it does affect his motivation to study 

and his ability to follow that motivation.

Q. Does it have any relation to what we might call his mental health?

A. I should say his mental health, to a very large extent, depends on 

his relationship to the group.

Q. In other words, the individual’s mental health is tied in with the 

relationship of his own identity with the group?

A. Yes, s ir , and may I reca ll that the word which we used to use for 

psychiatrist or psychoanalyst used to be called "alienist. " An 

alienist was a person concerned with those who were alienated



441

from society - -  that is, from their group. That is , alienation, 

isolation from the group, inability to feel accepted by a group, was 

regarded as very essense of insanity or psychopathology.

Q. You are aware of the fact that this separation into Negro and white 

groups in schools has been regarded by some as causing injury, 

have you not?

A. Y es, s ir , I'm  aware of that.

Q. Is that a part of this pattern you are talking about, the relationship 

of these two groups together?

A. Well, I think what you're referring to is the statement of the Su­

preme Court that modern authority has shown that that separation 

is harmful. Am I correct?

Q. Well, all I  want to know is whether the harm that occurs by being 

together or separate is  a part of this field of social dynamics.

A. Yes, s ir , it certainly is . CR-549)

Q. And that mental injury or lack of injury is  specifically the concern 

of this study?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. --T h is  type of study.

A. Y es.

Q. Let me read to you, if I may, D r. Van Den Haag, a statement that 

was made by Professor Philip Kurland, — By the way, who is  

Professor Kurland?

A. I think he is a professor of law at the University of Chicago.

Q. Who is D r. Kenneth Clark?

A. He is a  very well known social psychologist who undertook and



442

testified to certain tests on Negro children which played a major 

role in various lawsuits that were ultimately consolidated and 

came to the Supreme Court as Brown vs. Board of Education. He 

is  also the organizer and major author, as well as major supplier 

of evidence, for the appendix to the brief of Brown that was sub­

mitted to the Supreme Court, and he is quoted by the Court, In 
major

effect, as this/modern authority, among others, that would con­

firm  the harm done.

Q. Do you know whether D r. Clark wrote a book called PREJUDICE 

AND YOUR CHILD?

A. He did.

Q. Do you know whether Professor Kurland has an essay in that book?

A. Y es, s ir , he does. (R-550)

Q. I would like to read you the following from Professor Kurland's 

essay in that book, and I quote:

"D r. C lark's study was utilized by the Supreme Court to 

provide a factual base on which to rest its conclusion that segre­

gation of white and Negro school children was a deprivation of the 

equal protection of the laws commanded by the Fourteenth Amend­

ment. "

Have you ever read that statement?

A. I have, s ir .

Q. You notice what he says in there, "to provide a factual base" on 

D r. C lark 's study?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. Let me read you at the moment then what was said thereafter—



443

what was said by the Supreme Court on this point in the Brown 

Case:

"Whatever may have been the extent of psychological 

knowledge at the time of P lessy vs. Ferguson, this finding is 

amply supported by modern authority . . . "

- - - t h e  finding being that;

" . . .that segregation is harmful to Negro child ren .. -

Now, te ll me, Doctor Van Den Haag, does D r. Clark have 

any extant study which tends to show that segregation is harmful 

to Negro children?

A. He has made such a study, and this will take — - Shall I explain 

the study to you? CR-551)

Q. If you would, please. Just tell me when it was and what it was 

and how it was used.

A. He has actually made two studies. One consisted of a study in 

which he submitted to sixteen Negro children —

Q. How many?

A. Sixteen. - - I n  South Carolina a number, or rather, he showed 

them one white and one Negro doll and asked them a number of 

questions, some to identify which doll is Negro and which doll is 

white. Then he went on to ask other questions meant to find out 

their preferences, which doll is n icer. Then he asked the other 

questions of the same kind, "Which doll would you like to play 

with?" And finally he asked, "Which doll is like you?"

Now, his results were that ten out of the sixteen Negro 

children in this segregated southern school picked the white doll as



444

"the one that looks like you. " From this, he concluded - -  and I 

quote —  "that these children have been definitely harmed in the 

developement of their personality ." Since he knew, of course, 

that the question before the Court was whether it was segregation 

that might have harmed them, he added, "My opinion is  that the 

fundamental effect of segregation is basic confusion in the individ­

uals and their concepts about themselves conflicting In their self 

images. This seems to be supported by the result of these sixteen 

children ."

Now, the syntax Is a little bit obscure, but the essence,
(R-552)

I think, here of what Professor Clark meant to say is obvious. I 

summarize it by saying he meant to say, first, that harm was 

done; second, that segregation caused the harm, or, to quote, 

"played a fundamental ro le"; third, that this is consistent with 

previous results —  that is , he re fers  to some previous research  

which he has done —  which we obtained in testing over 300 chil­

dren; and finally, said that this result was confirmed in this 

county. He —

Q. —  Before you go further, Doctor, let me get one thing clear here 

on this. What does it mean if the Negro child picks a Negro doll? 

What is the intent of this? What does Dr. Clark intend to mean?

A. He intended to find out whether by segregation, had lead them to 

despise themselves to such an extent that instead of identifying 

themselves correctly with the dark dolls, they would misidentify 

themselves with the white dolls, which, if it occurred as it did in 

the tests he mentions, would indicate that since their self image,



445

their version of their own identity, was wrong, they were in for a 

lot of trouble.

Q. This was because they were in a segregated school?

A. He affirmed that this misidentity occurred because —

Q. - - -  Did he have a sim ilar group in a non-segregated school?

A. Not in the test he submitted to the Court.

Q. Is  this the test that was submitted to the Supreme Court?

A. Y es. These other tests referred to, he referred  indirectly, as I 

have just mentioned, to other tests that he undertook with 300 ch il­

dren: but he did not describe these.
(R-553)
Q,. But D r. Van Den Haag, one moment. Do you mean to te ll me that 

the doll test which went before the Supreme Court was based on the 

testimony of sixteen children, and only sixteen?

A. Well, that was in the South Carolina case. M r. Clark testified in 

two more cases and undertook essentially the same test with essen ­

tially the same result, also with extremely sm all groups of chil­

dren, 10 or 15 and 20, I believe.

Q. Did this agree with the larger studies, as he said it did?

A. Well, he said that it was consistent with the larger studies. And I 

thereupon looked up the larger study, which is published in a book 

called READINGS IN SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY, edited by Newcombe 

and Hartley. Somewhat to my surprise I found that, contrary to 

his testimony, this larger study seemed to indicate the very oppo­

site of what his testimony tended to show.

Q. What do you mean by "the opposite"?

A. May I describe it?



446
In the larger study D r. Clark tested 134 Negro children in 

segregated schools in Arkansas, as it happens, and 119 Negro 

children in unsegregated schools in Springfield, M assachusetts. 

They were about evenly divided by sex, about the same age, and, 

by all indications, the same socio-economic status, although the 

matching can be dubious. Again he presented black and white 

dolls, and asked again which doll was nicer, which one they want­

ed to play with, which one "looks like you. "

I am now quoting, if I  may, his conclusions in this study,

which he asserted was consistent with the one submitted to the
(R-554)

Court. —

Q. Now, this is his earlier study on - -  how many children?

A. 134, plus 119. And don't ask me — -

Q, About 260 children.

A. All right. This is the earliest study, undertaken about ten years 

earlier , and as Professor Clark has himself asserted in a com - . 

ment he made, it was undertaken without any thought of later im­

portance. That was long before the Brown vs. Board of education 

decision.

Q. Was it the same test?

A. Exactly.

Q. In other words, it was the same dolls given under the same condi­

tions exactly? Except around 260 children, instead of 16, and 

both North and South at the same time ?

A. Both segregated and unsegregated Negro children.

Q. And what was his conclusion at that time ?



447

A. Well, there are several. F irs t, and I quote:

"The children in the northern mixed school situation do not 

differ from children in southern segregated schools in either their 

knowledge of racia l differences or their racia l identification, ex­

cept . . . "  and I quote again, " . .  .the southern children in se g re ­

gated schools axe less pronounced in their preference for the 

white doll, compared to the northern unsegregated children’s def­

inite preference for this d o ll."

Q. You're saying that —  I  wonder if you would say that to me
(R-555)

again. The southern Negro children preferred which?

A. In the southern segregated schools, they did prefer the white doll 

to a lesser extent —  that is, there were fewer of them that pre­

ferred and identified with the white doll than was the case with 

Negro children in unsegregated schools in the North.

Q. In other words, you say that the Negro children in the 3outh in this 

earlier study - - -  More of them picked the Negro doll to identify 

themselves with?

A. Right. In fact, I  may quote Professor C lark's figures on this again. 

He has a table. Table IV in the study that I mentioned shows that 

when he asked the Negro children, "Give me the doll that looks 

like you ," 39 percent in the non-segregated schools gave the white 

doll, whereas only 29 percent did so in the segregated schools.

Now, if I may comment on this for a moment, his court- 

submitted and court-accepted testimony said that it was segrega­

tion that lead these children to misidentify themselves; but he did 

not submit to the Court what would usually be called a controlled



448

study that is, a study undertaken with the same sort of chil­

dren in a mixed situation in this case. Actually, though, he had 

such a controlled study available, having undertaken it himself 

ten years before and published it.

My suspicion is that the reason he did not submit this
(R-558)

controlled study is that it would have shown that the conclusions 

he drew from his study with the sixteen Negro children was con­

tradicted by the controlled study. The controlled study showed 

very clearly that when Negro children are in a mixed, non-segre­

gated situation, they tend to identify more frequently and prefer 

more frequently the white doll than they do when they are in an un- 

mixed, segregated situation - -  that is, in Professor Clark’s 

term s, they have doubts about their self image and conflicting 

views about it.

Q. Well, in our terminology, are you saying now that where they are 

intermixed they have less  sense of racia l identity than where they 

are separate?

A. That’s a correct statement. But let me add to the statement that 

according to Professor Clark, it is that sense of self-identifica­

tion that is the symptom of mental health; so if they lack or lose 

that in a mixed situation, then, according to Professor Clark, 

they are being done harm by the mixture.

Q, In other words, the mental injury that the Supreme Court was 

talking about was this loss of racia l identity?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. And that Professor C lark’s own study indicated that it was lost



449

more in an intermixed school than in a separate school?

A. Y es, s ir .

THE COURT: Very well. W e'll take a recess .

(Ten minute recess)

(R-557) After R ecess

(MR. LEONARD CONTINUES:)

Q. Just before the recess , D r. Van Den Haag, we had come to this 

question of whether D r. C lark 's earlier study actually showed 

greater mental injury by loss of racia l identification in the inter­

mixed school in the North, rather than in the separate school in 

the South.

A. Y es, s ir . May I amend what you said a little bit? It is not a 

question of loss, I think, of racia l identity so much as it is a 

question of conflict about it; so if it were possible for a Negro to 

lose his racial identity altogether and assume a white identity, 

whatever else one would think about it, it would probably not lead 

to mental injury. The trouble is there is a tendency to lose the 

positive identification, but not to replace It, so that he remains 

with a negative attitude toward his own group and yet without being 

able to enter or fully accept, not to speak of being accepted as a 

group, in this case the white group. It is a conflict that makes for 

mental injury.

Q. Well, you're saying then that in the Northern school this ambi­

valence, this divided loyalty type of situation existed more than it 

did in the South?

A. In fact, I think the conflict usually increases the more the contact



450

is, and particularly in a school situation. And there are various 

reasons for that. To put it very simply, in a school situation, I 

think the Negro child that goes to school with white children nat­

urally resents the fact that the (R-558) achievement of the white 

child is likely to be higher, and that the resentment certainly on 

the one hand again reinforces the wish to de-identify with the 

Negro group and, on the other hand, increase a feeling of inferior 

ity and hostility to the white group.

Q. Have any sorts of these doll tests of D r. Clark been made here in 

Jackson or the Mississippi area?

A. There has recently been made a test by Professor Jam es Gregor.

Q. Not by D r. Clark?

A. Not by D r. Clark, as far as I know.

Q. Has the same type of test ever been made ?

A. Gregor intentionally, as far as I understand his paper, which has 

not yet been published, intentionally used exactly the same tech­

nique, the same dolls, and the same questions that Clark had used 

and he undertook tests with —  let me see —  83 white children 

and 92 Negro children in Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. Were these children of school age?

A. Y es. I can give you the age. Excuse me. (Examines papers)

He has the age somewhere —

Q. Well, can you approximate the age for me?

A. I think about seven to nine. Age seven to nine.

Q. Children who are about seven to nine?

A. Y es.



451

Q. And here In Jackson?

A. That's right.

Q. And a total of how many? About 170? (R-559)

A. That's right.

Q. When was that study made?

A. Quite recently. There is no date on the paper I have before me, 

but I understand it was made a few months ago.

Q. What is the test result?

A. Well, he found basically the same results Clark found, only more 

so. He found that these were Negro children tested in segregated 

schools, and he found that in these schools the percentage of chil­

dren that identified with the Negro doll — that is, showed what he 

calls signs of mental health - -  was even higher than the ones that 

Clark had found in segregated schools.

Q. In other segregated schools?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it therefore higher than the one he had found in an intermixed 

school?

A. Much higher, yes.

Q. In other words, more Negro children in Jackson, Mississippi, 

correctly identified themselves with the Negro doll than identified 

themselves with the white doll?

A. That's right. I can give you the comparative figures. The chil­

dren that identified themselves correctly with the Negro doll in 

Jackson, M ississippi, were, of the total number, depending on the 

question, 59, 60, and 59 percent.



Q. Do you have any of the percentages of D r. C lark's study?

A. — Just one more percentage I want to give on the Jackson (R-560) 

study. 95 percent of the Negro children in the segregated schools 

of Jackson correctly said, when asked "Give me the doll that looks 

like you, " correctly designated the dark Negro doll.

Q. 95 percent?

A. 95 percent.

Q. How does that compare to C lark's prior resu lts?

A. C lark 's own figures for segregated schools a r e ------

Q. Give me the figure that Clark gave to the Supreme Court in the 

study which he submitted to the dupremem Court. How many 

Negro children there identified themselves?

A. Six out of sixteen identified with the Negro doll; ten with the white 

doll. To figure that out in percentages —

Q. In other words, only about a third of the Negro children in C lark 's 

study at that time identified themselves with the Negro doll; two- 

thirds identified themselves with the white doll?

A. That's correct.

Q. And this is the report that was submitted to the Supreme Court?

A. Right.

Q. In Jackson, M ississippi, S5 percent of the Negro children identified 

themselves with the Negro doll?

A. That's right.

Q. And only 5 percent Did the 5 percent clearly identify with the 

white doll, or are they confused between the two? (R-5S1)

A. It 's  not entirely clear from D r. Gregor's report. Just that they

452



453

choose the white doll.

Q, What would your conclusion be from this in term s of mental health, 

as shown by the Jackson study?

A. I do think that although the technique seems to be not altogether 

free from e rro rs  in general, the doll test that originated with 

Clark, I do think that it does indicate something about mental 

health, and again, what it indicates seems to me what you would 

really expect. I can't understand why Clark either said or expect­

ed something different; namely, that when Negro children go to 

school with white children, they tend to be confused about their 

group identification, when they go to school only with other Negro 

children, this confusion does not occur. Moreover, their ideal, 

their ego, ideal or ego image, sometimes when they go to school 

with Negro children will, of course, be the Negro child that most

appeals to them; whereas, when they go to school in a mixed sit-
a

uation, they will form mixed ideals, as it were, /conflicting ideal 

to which they will then feel unable to live up. So in term s of mental 

health, I shall put it very simply and say that the greater the mix­

ture and the earlier, the worse probably the effect on the mental 

health of those that are being mixed.

Q. Did D r. Clark ever use any figure coloring tests, as well as doll 

tests?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Has he ever done any other type of test besides the doll test, (R-562) 

in this same field?

A. I'm  sure he has, but I'm  not - - I don't know them.



454

Q. You don't know of any results of them?

A. No. I may call your attention to the fact that I published the tilings 

I have just testified to, and I got reaction from Professor Clark to 

that, which I think for the sake of completeness .should be mention­

ed.

Q. What Is that ?

A. Well, in his book, PREJUDICE AND YOUR CHILD, Professor 

Clark on page 45 has a paragraph that refers to the tests I have 

just mentioned, the tests on those 300 children, including control 

tests.

Q. Dr. Van Den Haag, I wonder If you will look at page 44 firs t and 

tell me what was referred to there about the coloring test. Let me 

read to you the paragraph I have in mind.

“How do Northern Negro children differ from Southern 

Negro children in this respect? Nearly 80 percent of the Southern 

children colored their preferences brown, whereas only 36 percent 

of the Northern children did. Furthermore, over 20 percent of 

the Northern children colored their preferences in a bizarre color, 

while only 5 percent of the Southern children did. A record of 

spontaneous rem arks of the children showed that 82 percent of the 

Southern children spoke as they worked, but only 20 percent of the 

Northern children d id .11

Now, is that coloring the same as the doll test? (R-563)

A. In essense. It is  a slightly different technique, but it is the same 

interpretive theory, and what he found, as you have just read, is 

once more that in the South where the children tend to be segre-



455

gated, they easily identify with their own group, and in the North 

where they tend to be mixed, they do not as frequently and as 

easily identify with their own group. In fact, the last point you 

Just mentioned, that they colored in bizarre colors, certainly in­

dicates that they are so confused by conflict about their identity 

that they don’t dare to choose, as it were. And that is  certainly 

not a very good thing.

Q. What do they have ? An outline or figure of a child to color?

A. I assume so. I am not fam iliar with this particular test. The doll 

test, they had an actual doll, which I have seen. In the coloring 

test, I presume it 's  a cut-out of a human figure that they are sup­

posed to color.

Q. In any event, the results which I have just read are completely 

constant to what you understand to have been Clark’s f irs t and 

largest study with the dolls and with the special doll study test 

made here in Jackson?

A, Correct, with the addition that these are not the results that he 

submitted to the Court.

Q. Has this been been published since his work in Brown was submitt­

ed to the Court? This one I have Just read.

A. Actually, the book in question from which you read was published 

afterward, but I wouldn't be surprised if the (R-564) coloring test 

wasn't undertaken earlier. Certainly, the doll test I refer to was 

undertaken ten years earlier.

Q. In other words, he would have known of this coloring test at the

same time also before the evidence went before the Supreme Court?



456

A. Certainly, yes.

Q. Did you have another portion from PREJUDICE AND YOUR CHILD 

you wanted to refer to there ?

A. Y es. After writing about these matters that we have just discussed, 

there is a paragraph on page 45 at the bottom which I suspect in­

directly refers  to the publication of my analysis of his tests, and 

it is as follows:

"On the surface these findings.. "  --that is , the findings 

with the 300 children — "might suggest that Northern Negro chil­

dren suffer more personality damage from racia l prejudice and 

discrimination than do Southern children. However, this interpre­

tation would seem to be not only superficial but incorrect. The 

apparent emotional stability of the Southern Negro child may be 

indicative only of the fact that through rigid racial segregation and 

Isolation he has accepted as normal the fact of his inferior social 

status. Such an acceptance is not symptomatic of a healthy per­

sonality. The emotional turmoil revealed by some of the Northern 

children may be Interpreted as an attempt on their part to assert 

some positive aspect of them selves.!i

I think this is fairly clear, but if I may - - -  CR-535)

Q. Y es. If you will restate it.

A. What he, in effect, says is that the tests may be interpreted as he 

himself did interpret them originally and as I did interpret them 

following him, but that would be incorrect or superficial, and that 

actually the acceptance of a lower status which he presumes in the 

case in the South and the greater mental stability associated there-



457

with might be a symptom of worse mental trouble than the instabil­

ity that appears to occur in the North. Now, —- 

Q. But that is merely a subjective —

A. That is  his new interpretation, which I suspect is motivated by the 

fact that his old interpretation would have to lead him to advocate 

more segregation, whereas lie wanted to advocate less.

There is one difficulty with this new interpretation. What 

he has really done is to say that whatever the outcome of the test, 

whether it means that in mured situations Negro children prefer 

more white dolls, or whether it means that in white situations they 

do, or vice versa with Negro dolls Whatever the outcome, he 

is now asserting, it always shows that segregation is bad, either 

because they choose more white dolls or because they choose fewer 

white dolls. In either case it shows that segregation is bad.

Now, I do not think that this sort of experiment is usual.

The purpose of an experiment is usually to either prove or dis­

prove a hypothesis of the experiment. If the (R-566) experiment 

is so arranged that whatever the outcome, the hypothesis is proved, 

it is not normally considered to be an experiment at all, it proves 

merely the prejudice of the experimenter.

Q. But in any event, the results themselves, the objective results, 

have shown a greater, stronger racial identification in the South 

among children in separate schools than in the North in intermixed 

schools?

A. They certainly do, and so did Professor Clark recognize originally, 

but he now likes to take that back for reasons that I don't know.



458

Q. Doctor, are you fam iliar with the testimony of D r. Redfield which 

was put in evidence in Briggs vs. Elliott, one of the component 

cases in Brown against Board of Education?

A. Briggs — ?

Q. I can read you the following excerpt from the decision of the Court 

in Stell against Sav annah -C hatham County Board of Education, in 

the Savannah Division of the Southern D istrict of Georgia:

D r. Redfield testified at Page 160 of the Briggs v. Elliott 

record as follows:

"The conclusion then to which I come is difference in Intel­

lectual capacity or in ability to learn have not been shown to exist 

as between Negroes and whites, and, further, (R-567) that the 

results make it very probable that if such differences are later 

shown to exist they will not prove to be significant for any educa­

tional policy or p ra ctice ."

Do you reca ll this testimony?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. Is  it constant - - I s  it In agreement with what you know the facts to 

be as indicated by all of the existing tests?

A. Well, it 's  a little equivocal. If it refers to test results, then it ’s 

simply obviously wrong. The test results that we have so far are 

entirely clear. If I may read to you from a study called "Action 

Patterns in School Desegregation, " published by Professor Wey, 

Professor of Education at the University of Miami. This study, 

incidentally, is intended to help schools to desegregate. It certain­

ly is not written by a man who is in favor of segregation. On page



459

213 of that study he describes the differences as found by tests , 

and also testified to by a number of superintendents:

"There are some top Negro students, some mediocre ones, 

and some quite retarded. This is also true of white children. 

However, die proportion of slow learners Is greater among the 

Negroes. Differences are not as apparent In kindergarten and 

fir s t  grade as in the upper grades and high school."

And then he indicates a number of schools and tests where 

as much had been shown. Now, in this interpretation, if P ro fess­

or Redfield meant that in term s of test results Negroes (R-568) 

equaled whites, certainly, the generally accepted and over and 

over confirmed results —  confirmed even by people who very 

much are in favor of desegregation, in New York as well as any­

where else, the results are that Negroes’ learning ability as 

shown by simple tests is considerably below that of whites. Now, 

there is a controversy, and that is why I say I'm  not sure what 

Professor Redfield meant - -  is whether this is due to avoidable or 

changeable environmental factors, such as opportunity, cultural 

stimulation, quality of the schools, or whether it is due to what 

we may call genetic inherent factors.

My opinion on genetic factors is not, I think, worth getting, 

because I'm  not a geneticist. But I do want to make a logical r e ­

mark, if I may, and I used to teach logic; and that is this: If we 

assume that in many places, at least, the cultural opportunity of

Negroes, Negro children, their home environment and so on, are 

such as to reduce their learning ability, which I think in many



460

cases Is a  correct assumption, It would not follw that there may 

not also be an Inherent genetic factor — That is , It could well be 

that part of the below-whlte-achievement is to be attributed to cul­

tural matters —

Q. Were you in court yesterday, Doctor?

A. No, 1 was not.

Q. Dr. Garrett testified yesterday that according to the studies and 

tests he knew of and had reviewed, approximately 73 percent of the 

difference between Negro and white test differences was of genetic 

origin and 27 percent, as shown by the twin studies (R-569) and 

others, at the most should be attributed to environment. Is  that 

approximately what you are referring to now, that there is a com­

bination of these two factors?

A. Well, there is a combination. I am not sure about the numerical 

proportions, not having undertaken any tests myself and not being 

altogether fam iliar with Professor G arrett's tests.

What I meant to say is very simply this: You take a person 

to a dark room and he cannot see in this room. Your normal con­

clusion Is to say something, "Well, obviously, the room Is dark; 

he cannot s e e ." But if you are a scientist, you would also want to 

take him into a lighted room and see if he could see there, because 

the reason for his not seeing in the dark room may be the darkness 

and may also be that he is blind, or at least shortsighted. And so 

in the Negro case: it may be that the low achievement is in part 

due to the lack of cultural opportunity, but it may also be that their 

capacity is inferior, as Professor Garrett has by his test found.



461
Q. Did you hear D r. McGurk this morning? —

A. I did hear part of it, yes.

Q. — That he had made such a test, and had taken the ones with the 

equal cultural availability?

A. Well, I  heard him testify, and it sounded to me quite convincing, 

but I want to mention that the usual objection against this is that 

it 's  extremely hard to standardize cultural opportunity and thus 

make the test culture-free.

Q* What you're saying is that there is no possible way of (R-570) 

measuring?

A. I wouldn't say there is no possible way of measuring. I would say 

that one would have to see, in the testimony you have just mention­

ed, whether the cultural opportunities were really 100 percent 

standardized. If they are, the test is perfectly valid; and if they 

are not, the test Is not.

Q. How can you possibly exhaust all the cultural opportunities?

A. I think you have a problem there.

Q. Well, you couldn't, since the cultural opportunity would be the total 

history of a person's life, day by day and hour by hour. What 

you're saying is that there Is no possibility of making a compari­

son.

A. No, I wouldn't go so far. You are quite right, of course, in the 

exact sense, what you say would be correct. But if we take a 

group of children, we usually assume that once they have been 

reasonably matched and the factors are controlled, that other fac­

tors tend to compensate for each other. If we accept what we say



literally, then we couldn't take any test of anything ever.

Q. Are you fam iliar with the Sims Scale that D r. McGurk used?

A. I've heard of it, but I ’m not familiar with it.

Q. Have you ever used it?

A. No, s ir .

Q. Do you know of any scale that gives a better result?

A. No, s ir , I don’t. I do not myself do any testing.

Q* Then as far as the Sims Scale is concerned, as far as this (R-571) 

can be equated, you are in agreement then with D r. McGurk’s 

conclusion, that as far as equation can be measured, the cultural 

part of it does not make a change?

A. Logically, certainly. As far as it can be measured, yes. Whether 

he has measured it or not, I am not able to say.

Q. Now, in the statements which have been made since the decision of 

the Supreme Court in the Brown case, Doctor Van Den Haag, are 

you aware of any statements that have been made as to whether or 

not segregation injury had been shown in that case by the evidence? 

And I'm  talking now about statements by the person who put in the 

evidence.

A. My feeling is that a number of persons actually more or less con­

fessed that that was not quite the case; but I do not have the quo­

tations with me.

Q. Was Klineberg one of those ?

A. Yes, s ir . There were thirty-two social scientists who signed the 

appendix, and I believe Klineberg was one of them, and so, of 

course, was Clark.

452



463

Q. Was Klineberg one of the authors of the statement?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. I read you from an Antidiscrimination League publication, entitled 

"The Role of Social Sciences in Desegregation —  A Symposium," 

a statement by Klineberg and ask if this is the statement to which 

you make reference:

"We were very careful in the social science statement not 

to say that segregation caused all these troubles, (R-572) because 

we did not have the data that showed that children brought up in 

segregated schools were very different from those brought up in 

non-segregated schools. We had to put our conclusion in term s of 

the overall effect of discrim ination."

A. Well, if I  may comment, if he had done that, then the testimony 

would have been irrelevant to the case. As a matter of fact, as 1 

quoted you before, Professor Clark very clearly stated that what 

he testified to, the damage that he felt he found was due fundamen­

tally to segregation.

Q. And has D r. Glark made a statement as to whether in his presenta­

tion to the Supreme Court he had mentioned whether segregation 

causes injury?

A. I think he has, but again I don't have it with me.

Q. Let me read you from the book which you have previously referred  

to, PREJUDICE AND YOUR CHILD, written by D r. Kenneth Clark, 

the following from page 193:

"When the lawyers of the NAACP in their understandable 

zeal to develop the strongest possible case asked the social



464

scientists whether it was possible to present evidence showing 

that public school segregation in itself damaged the personalities 

of Negro children, it was pointed out to them that the available 

studies had not so far isolated a single variable from the total 

social complexity of racia l prejudice, discrimination and segrega­

tion. "

A. This would be a very reasonable statement if that had been the

testimony that was given, but, as I pointed out, Professor Clark’s
the variable called

testimony was actually that/segregation caused the damage (R-573) 

that he saw. Of course, the Court, may I point out, accepted this 

statement because it asserted that modern authority —  meaning 

Professor Clark and the other social scientists — had shown that 

segregation causes harm. So the Court interpreted, apparently, 

the testimony by Clark and others differently than they —

Q. —  Than they themselves have since interpreted?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. Are you fam iliar with the name of D r. Kelly, Alfred Kelly?

A. Yes. He is a psychologist, but I don't remember where he teaches 

now.

Q. Do you recall that there were hearings before the United States 

Senate in which Kelly testified as to his preparation of part of the 

Brown case ?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. And the factual statement. Let me read to you from the opinion 

I previously referred to in the Stell case, as follows: - -  And I ask 

if this is the statement which you are now referring to —



465

"In the exhibit, hearing before a subcommittee of the Com­

mittee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 87th Congress, 2nd 

Session, Pages 166 to 178, appears a speech made by D r. Alfred 

H. Kelly of Wayne State University, in which he described in some 

detail how he helped to present the Brown case to the Supreme 

C ou rt."

In part, he said, and I am quoting - -  from D r. Kelly, not
(R-574)

from the opinion:

"It is not that we were engaged in formulating lies. There 

was nothing as crude and naive as that. But we were using facts, 

emphasizing facts, bearing down on facts, sliding off of facts, 

quietly ignoring facts, and above all interpreting facts in a way to 

do as Thurgood Marshall said we had to do to'get by those boys 

down there."'

Is  that the statement you were referring to?

A. That is  the statement, and I think it is also correct.

Q. D r. Van Den Haag, to leave Brown for the moment, would you tell 

me in your own words, or in as lay language as possible, what Is 

the meaning of this concept of self-identification of the individual 

which you have been referring to?

A. Every individual at some point or other must form an image of 

himself, of what he means to others, of what he means to himself. 

This is what we call his sense of identity. He identifies the con­

tinuous disposition and emotions active in himself, and he distin­

guishes himself, sees himself, Identifies himself as an individual 

distinguished from others and related more to some and less to



466

others. Nov;, this occurs when the individual is in a group. When 

he is not in a group, and, particularly, when he is not in a group 

that tends to accept him and that he feels a certain community with, 

when that is not the case, then there is going to be trouble.

Let me refer to some extreme cases. Kingsly Davis, 

Professor of Sociology at the University of California in CIh-575) 

Berkeley, observed two children in different circumstances who 

had been brought up in isolation until the 6th year in one case and 

the 8th year in the other. In both cases these children could not 

speak, could not walk, could not control their evacuation, were 

afraid of anyone, did not recognize other human beings as human 

beings and reacted to them as animals would do.

What that shows is that to become human, one has to be a 

member of a group. Doctor Spitz, a physician, in an experiment 

that also became quite famous, has shown that infants who are not 

allowed to have the minimal contact of even seeing other infants 

and interacting with them, be it only visually, either died or came 

to suffer from a variety of physical ailments, and in any case be­

come retarded, often in a non-reversible way.

So membership in a group is essential for a human being to 

become human. Unless he is a member of a group, he is only 

potentially human, and unless he becomes a member of a group 

fairly early, this potentiality will be altogether defeated. Now, 

when I say a member of a group, of course, I do not mean a formal

membership, with a membership card, but simply that he has to 

interact habitually with a number of persons that he recognizes as



467
sim ilar to himself.

Q,. Now, does he have control over this? In other words, may you 

identify yourself with any group you wish? (R-578)

A. No, you cannot, because of course the Identification must be mu­

tual, and people have always identified themselves with groups 

who, in the firs t place, look sim ilar to them. A child does not 

identify with an adult; he Identifies with other children. A girl 

child identifies with other girl children. If that is not the case, if 

a boy child identifies with girl children, one of the possible results 

may be homosexuality. In short, children have to identify with - - -  

and usually do unless there is some special circumstances —  

other children of about the same age, the same group sexually, 

racially, in term s of age.

Q. Well, te ll me tills: Does a single individual identify himself with 

many groups, according to subject? Religious, professional, 

racial, national, family, and other?

A. Certainly. We all are members of numerous groups.

Q. Are you saying that if a person is a lawyer, for example, he identi­

fies himself with other lawyers and resents slurs cast, let us say, 

upon the legal profession?

A. I think that would be quite right?

Q. Regardless of his personal opinion of individuals in It?

A. I think that would be quite normal, but at the same time he also 

will identify with other groups: again, religious —  that is, sup­

pose he is Jewish and lie Is in a Jewish house of worship, he isn ’t 

identifying as a lawyer; he is going to identify as a Jew. When he



468
is courting a girl, he is identifying as a young man, and so on. 

(R-577)
Q. What are the factors which make for identification? In other words, 

what compels a person to associate himself with a given group?

A. I don’t think it is usually a matter of compulsion. It is a matter 

of selection when you can see the similarity in the others. And I 

should point out that children tend to perceive that sim ilarity at a 

very early age. The most important thing that Is perceived at the 

beginning is, of course, the visual aspect of the other person.

Q. What's a visual aspect?

A. The way he looks. And the most important thing in the way he 

looks is usually the color of the skin.

Q. How about sex?

A. Well, that is also quite important; not for very small children as 

important, I think, as the color of the skin. It becomes more 

Important as they grow up.

Q. Well, do very small children identify themselves racially at an 

early age?

A. Yes. And let me, if I may, point to some research that has been 

done about this by Mary Goodman, Catherine Landreth, and finally 

by Marion Radke.

D r. Goodman found that this feeling of racial identity, 

identification, - - 1 quote: "awareness of one's racial identity may 

be regarded as one facet of that consciousness of self which is 

gradually achieved during the first three or four (R-578) years of 

l i f e ," and "preliminary analysis” —  and this was a study of a 

nursery school in California leads to the belief that these chil­



469

dren of approximately 3 to 4 - 1/2 years were in the process of 

becoming aware of race d ifferences.11

A study by Dr. Catherine Landreth In San Francisco called 

"Young Children's Responses to a Picture and Inset Test Designed 

to Reveal Reactions to Persons of Different Skin Color, " That 

study concluded, "patterns of response to persons of different 

skin color are present as early as three years and become accent­

uated during the succeeding two y e a rs .11

D r. Radke in his study found that "white children In all the 

situations and at all ages (seven to thirteen years in this case) 

expressed strong preference for their own racial group. This is 

particularly the case when their choices between Negro and white 

children as friends are on an abstract or wish le v e l."

Q. Would it be fair to say the summary of those studies, Doctor, is 

that the self-identification with a racial group comes early In life 

before the school age? That is, it’s firmly fixed by the time the 

child firs t goes to school?

A. That seem s fa ir, yes. If you wish, I may go on and point out that 

In this there is a natural purpose. This is not an American phe- 

nonema but occurs universally and has a purpose almost in the 

nature of human beings.

Q. What is that purpose? Would you explain that, please? (R-579)

A. Yes. Well, I would like to refer to a statement of Sir Arthur 

Keith, K -e -i-t-h , Past President of the Royal Anthropological 

Society and of the British  Association for the Advancement of 

Science.



470

Q. What does D r. Keith say?

A. "Each tribe in our prehistoric world represents an evolutionary 

experience. Without isolation nature could have done nothing.

How did she keep tribes apart? The answer to this question yields 

a clue to the object of our search — the origin of our prejudices. 

We are apt to think of seas, rivers, mountain chains, deserts, 

and impenetrable jungles as the barriers which kept evolving tribes 

and races apart. No doubt they have assisted to secure this ob­

ject, but Nature did not trust them. She established her rea l and 

most effective barriers in the human heart. These instinctive 

likes and dislikes of ours, which I speak of as prejudices, have 

come down to us from the prehistoric world. They are essential 

parts of the evolutionary machinery which Nature employed 

throughout eons of time to secure the separation of man into per­

manent groups and thus to attain production of new and improved 

races of mankind.. . 11

”. . .  To obtain universal and perennial peace you must also 

reckon the price you will have to pay for It. The price is the 

racia l birthright that Nature has bestowed on you. To attain such 

an ideal world, peoples of all countries and (R-580) continents 

must pool not only their national interests, but they must also pool 

their bloods. . . . "

It goes on, if we were to do this "this universal deraciali- 

aztion, " if it ever comes about certainly - -  and I quote again - -  

"both head and heart will rise  against it. There will well up within 

you an overmastering antipathy to securing peace at such a p r ic e ."



471

11 • • • Nature has implanted within you for her own needs - -  the im­

provement of Mankind through racial differentiation. Race preju­

dice, I believe, works for the ultimate good of Mankind and must 

be given a recognized place in all our efforts to obtain natural 

justice for the w orld."

And I may go on with a statement more recent. The state­

ment of Sir Arthur Keith is now 25 years old. In 1962 Professor 

Carleton S. Coon, past president of the American Anthropological 

Society, states in his book, THE ORIGIN OF RACES:

" . . .  Gall it xenophobia, prejudice, or whatever, people 

do not ordinarily welcome masses of strangers in their midst, 

particularly if the strangers come with women and children and 

settle down to stay. Social mechanisms arise automatically to 

isolate the newcomers as much as possible and to keep them genet­

ically separate. This has happened historically to Jews {who 

wanted to preserve their culture) nearly everywhere, and to Neg­

roes in the New World. It has (R-581) happened recently to Euro­

peans in India and Indonesia, and in Africa, it Is happening very 

dramatically to Europeans, even as I wrote.

"The above is the behavioral aspect of race relations. The 

genetic aspect operates in a comparable way. Genes that form as 

part of a ce ll nucleus possess an internal equilibrium, just as do 

the members of social institutions. Genes in a population are in 

equilibrium if the population Is living a healthy life as a corporate 

entity. Racial intermixture can upset the genetic as well as the 

social equilibrium of a group and so, naturally, introduced genes



472

tend to disappear or to be reduced to a minute percentage.. . "

Now, if I may, I wish to refer to the mechanism by means 

of which this separation into groups occurs even when there is a 

physical intermixture.

I'd like to quote on this Professor George A. Lundberg, a 

form er president of the American Sociological Association. I 

quote because I think he expressed this as well as anyone can.

This is from an article that appeared in the Summer of 1958 in 

MODERN AGE:

"In every society men react selectively to their fellow men, 

in the sense of seeking the association of some and avoiding the 

association of others. Selective association Is necessarily based 

on some observable differences between those whose association 

we seek and those whose association we avoid. The differences 

which are the basis of selective (E-582) association are of an in­

definitely large variety, of all degrees of visibility and subtlety, 

and vastly different in social consequences. Sex, age, marital 

condition, religion, socio-economic status, color, size, shape, 

health, m orals, birth, breeding, and B .O . — the list of differ ­

ences is  endless and varied, but all the items have this in common: 

(1) they are observable; and (2) they are significant differences to 

.those who react selectively to people with the characteristics in 

question. It i s , , therefore, wholly absurd to try to Ignore, deny or 

talk out of existence these differences just because we do not ap­

prove of some of their social re su lts ."

In a different article, the same Professor Lundberg under-



473
took an em pirical study in a high school population. The study is 

called ’’Selective Association Among Ethnic Groups in a High 

School Population." This is published in the AMERICAN SOCIO­

LOGICAL REVIEW, Volume 17, No. 1 (1852). I quote:

”. . .  Every ethnic group showed a preference for its own 

members in each of the four relationships covered by the question.

"• .Ethnocentrism or prejudice is not confined to the ma­

jority of the dominant group.

" . .  .A certain amount of ethnocentrism is a normal and 

necessary ingredient of all group life. It Is the basic characteris­

tic that differentiates one group from another (R-583) and thus is 

fundamental to social structure. Ethnocentrism (discrimination, 

prejudice) is , therefore, not in itself necessarily to be regarded 

as a problem ."

And now, if I may, I want to quote still some further evi­

dence on this.

THE COURT: I believe this will be a very good place to 

take our noon recess, so we’ll recess until one-thirty.

(Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:30 P .M .)

Alter Recess

MR. LEONARD CONTINUES:

Q. Dr. Van Den Haag, before the noon recess, you were testifying 

about a number of studies by Air Arthur Keith, Professor Carleton 

Goon, and D r. Lundberg; and in this connection, several of the 

authors used the word ’’prejudice."

What is the meaning of ’’prejudice” in their sense?



474

A. The sense, particularly that Sir Arthur Keith uses the word, is 

not the sense in which we usually use it here. Here we usually 

mean by "prejudice" bad opinion, a hostile view you have of some­

one which is not justified; whereas, what Sir Arthur Keith has in 

mind is a  selective preference for one's own group and a rejection 

of people who are not of one's own group —  a rejection that is  not 

necessarily hostile, but simply in the sense of realizing that one 

does not or that they do not belong to the same group. (R-584J

Q. Is this, on a racia l basis, what is referred to as ethnocentrism?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. Now, would it be fair to summarize these studies as saying that 

this is essentially a biological thing, or inate characteristic of 

every individual?

A. That is certainly altogether Sir Arthur Keith's opinion, and also 

the opinion of Carleton Coon, both of whom indicate that it has very 

important biological function, but I would also say that it can be 

culturally reinforced or weakened with a variety of effects.

Q. Well, but if It's  a biological mechanism fundamentally, D r. Van 

Den Haag, is it the sort of thing that would require a distinct and 

continuing effort of will to disregard or to overcome?

A. Yes, I do think so. And such an effort, though it can be made, 

never seems to be wholly successful.

Q. Does this have any moral connotation?

A. Well, the motive for such an effort usually Is moral, I think.

People will malm such an effort if they feel that for ideological or 

moral reasons they ought to. Let me make an analogy.



475

Suppose you are with a person who Is crippled, or bears 

some sort of other stigma. I use the word as the the sociologist 

Gottman uses it and wrote a book about, on stigma. (R-585) 

Suppose you are with a person who has an obvious physical defect, 

and you have learned it would be cruel to make a person feel that 

he differs from others, so you might then make an effort of idle 

will to try to ignore this defect and treat him as though he did not 

have the defect. The interesting thing, as pointed out, is that 

though you try and for the best motives, you do not succeed. You 

are aware all the time that you have to continue to make the effort 

not to notice the difference. And what is more, the person in 

whose favor this effort Is directed is equally aware of the effort 

and would wish, according to the writer, that you didn't make it; 

he would wish that you simply admit to yourself and to him that 

there is this difference, and on that basis of belonging to different 

groups, establish a r esonable relationship. That is what Gottman 

maintains, and I would agree with him, that your attempt to deny 

to yourself the reality of your natural feeling is not only condemned 

to failure, but also makes your relationship to the person involved 

very difficult.

Q. In other words, are you saying that the only healthy situation is one 

in which you accept the difference and build in the basis of it?

A. Yes, s ir . In fact, if I may make a personal recollection, I remem­

ber years ago I met a woman who had written a book COLORBLIND, 

by which title she wished to indicate that a person ought not to see 

each other's color; and I recall a (R-586) very long discussion In



which I tried to explain to her that people are not born colorblind 

and do not become colorblind, they can only try to pretend that 

they are, and that that pretense is not a very healthful one.

Q. Is it proper then to say that this group preference on any basis, 

including racia l basis, does not arise necessarily from discredit­

able motives, but is simply present in the individual?

A. It is present in every group. It is present, as I pointed out before, 

already in three year old children. And I might point out that the 

studies that I mentioned before were made on middle class children 

from so-called liberal homes. - -  That is, from homes in which 

if they were conditioned at all, they were likely to be conditioned 

to ignore these differences.

Q. In this constant awareness of the difference where a member of a 

different group is present, is it possible to eliminate this in effect 

by having a group which is totally separate in itself? In other 

words, has a complete self-identity of its own. Does the aware­

ness in such a group drop as to its difference from outsiders?

A. I wouldn't say the "awareness" except in the possibility that in a 

negative sense - -  that is, the hostile element, the defensive e le ­

ment in that awareness may drop as the group is isolated from 

other groups; and the group's ambitions, interests, what the psy­

chologists call cathexis those would be directed inward to the group 

itself; but the (K-587) awareness ox difference remains.

Q. Well, perhaps I cam phrase this just slightly better, Dr. Van Den 

Haag.

If a group is by itself, wholly with its own group members,

476



477
does it develop its group consceiousness more in that area or when 

there are present a different group or in the presence of a different 

group? In other words, when does it tend to solidify in its own 

pattern?

A. I appreciate your effort, but I think the difference lies not in a 

matter of more or less, but what happens is that there will be a 

different group consciousness. In the case of separation, the 

group consciousness will be one in terms of pride, of belonging to 

the group; in the case of intermixture, they will remain group­

conscious, but in a confused way. Because their ambitions would 

be directed toward the group of which they are not a member, they 

will often try to themselves pretend that they are, and the result 

will be confusion and conflict.

Q. Have there any studies been made of Negro communities, for ex­

ample ?

A. Y es. I was about to quote one made by Mozelle Hill, Professor at 

the University of Chicago at the time, and published in a Negro 

social science magazine called PHYLON in the third quarter of 

1946. This study, called "A. Comparative Study of Race Attitudes 

in an All Negro Community in Oklahoma, (Pv-588) came to the 

conclusion - - I quote:

"An individual residing in an all-Negro society will have a 

much higher regard for Negroes. He will be more egotarian in his 

attitudes toward them and thus more favorable in his expression 

towards his race. It appears safe to conclude that sill Negro youths 

have a higher opinion of Negroes due to the absence of pressure



from white man, combined with the essentially middleclass 

ideology."

There is another study by Allison Davis, also a psycholo­

gist at the University of Chicago, who notes that in an all-Negro 

environment, Negroes have a more favorable attitude toward their 

own race and themselves.

Q. Dr. Van Den Haag, tailing groups as groups, are there any studies 

which are made to ascertain the effect of group contact, as such, 

the effect of one group upon another ?

A. Well, we call this usually cultural contact, and have quite a number 

of studies. I think the best thing may be to refer to one directly, 

which I have here. This is a study that has been made by P ro fess­

or Bernhard Lander, who teaches at Hunter College in New York, 

under the title "Towards an Understanding of Juvenile Delinquencyi' 

The part that is  relevant is as follows:

"The Negro delinquency rate increases from 39b in areas 

in which the Negro population concentration is less than 10% of the 

total population to 13% and 14% in tracts with 10-29.9  and 30-49 .9  

Negro population percentage. However, (R-589) as the Negro 

population concentration increases beyond 50%, the Negro delin­

quency rate decreases to 7% in areas with 90% or more Negro 

population. Thus, in areas with the greatest Negro population 

proportion, the Negro delinquency rate is lowest. A sim ilar pat­

tern of delinquency frequency also characterizes the white group 

in relation to the porportion of N egroes.. . .  As the Negro propor­

tion of the total tract population increases to 50%, the delinquency

478



479

rate correspondingly decreases. Thus, when other factors are 

held constant, delinquency rates . . .  are highest in areas of maxi­

mum racia l heterogeneity."

Let me give a comment, if you wish, on this, and put this 

very simply which Professor Lander points out. The higher the 

degree of intermixture, the higher the delinquency rate of both the 

mixed groups. As the intermixture decreases, let us say, more 

than 50% Negroes or so, the delinquency rate decreases again, and 

when it comes to be a very nearly homogenous group, 90% Negro, 

then the delinquency rate goes down to normal levels.

Q. Allow me to see if I understand that. Are you saying that the de­

linquency rate is virtually a function of the degree of overall con­

tact between the two groups?

A. All other tilings being equal, yes.

Q. All other things being equal, the more contact there is between the 

two, the higher the delinquency rate? (R-590)

A. Right.

Q. And when there's a small group at one end or the other, whether 

it 's  a small group of whites or a small group of Negroes, below a 

certain point, then the delinquency rate will drop?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. Now, Is that for lack of identification of a small unit as a group in 

the whole?

A. Yes, generally speaking. The phenomenon involved Is called

"anemie" by sociologists, and by psychoanalysts "neurosis. " 

They're almost the same; one Is social and one is an individual



480

phenomenon. And what Is a literal translation Is that the Negro is

ruling less and less. What occurs is people of different kinds,

usually with different ideas, customs, and group norms, come

together. The norms that have bound each group and have helped

to integrate each individual both within himself and with the group

tend to become loose, because each group observes the members

of the other behave somewhat differently. The result of this is

that people get a feeling of meaninglessness, valuelessness,

rulessness —  call It what you wish —  which leads them to feel

that anything goes, as it were, with high delinquency rate.

Now, what I wish to stress is that delinquency rates are not the

point really, but they are largely a symptom of a psychological 
been

disorder that has/caused by this (R-591) constant group contact.

Q. Has any study been made in Baltimore on this?

A. This is the study X quoted, by Professor Lander. It was made In 

Baltim ore. And may I point out that Professor Lander's study has 

the virtue, as other studies of the kind do not have, of having ca re ­

fully investigated whether other factors such as slum conditions 

and so on, educational levels, and so on, played a role. Having 

excluded all these by a number of technical devices, he was forced 

to conclude that it is racial heterogeneity, racial heterogeneity 

alone, that causes the high delinquency rate.

Q. Is this in essence an expression of the consciousness of group 

differences which you were speaking of previously?

A. Well, I don't know that I want to use the word "consciousness, " 

but it Is certainly an expression of, not necessarily conscious,



481

feeling people have that their situation within the group is no longer 

what It was. They tend to be torn in their loyalty between both 

groups, and being torn, the attempt to force one's self sometimes 

to be what one is not, tends to express itself in hostility, of which 

delinquency is one form.

Q. Has ̂ Professor Ichheiser ever written on this stress factor in 

interrelations?

A. Yes, s ir . I think I have with me what he has written. CR-592)

The article by D r. Ichheiser is called 11 Socio-psychological and 

Cultural Factors in Race R elations." It appeared in the AMERI­

CAN JOURNAL OF SOCIOLOGY, in 1949.

Q. "Who Is D r. Ichheiser?

A. Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago. May I quote 

the relevant passage?

Q. Please do.

A. " . . .  If the N egroes.. .  " and he speaks of the case of Intermixture.

— "If the Negroes would refuse to identify themselves consciously 

with the Negroes as a subgroup, then they would develop a kind of 

collective neurosis, as do other minorities too; for the conscious 

'we' would in case of such an attitude be persistently In conflict 

with the unconscious 'w e,1 and this inner split would inevitably r e ­

flect itself in different pathological distortions of the Negro per­

sonality. "

This is why I wasn’t quite willing to accept your expression

of group consciousness.. The point of the matter is that they may 

consciously try to identify with a group not their own, but their



482

unconscious won’t follow, and the result would lead to what he 

calls a  "collective neu rosis."

Q. Has any study of group contact been made In B razil that you know 

of, or of culture in B razil?

A. Y es, and I think it is of some importance. This is the study to 

which you are referring —  I will give you the exact name of it in 

a moment. — It is of some importance (R-593) for this reason: 

that B raz il is usually regarded as a country where race mixture 

has taken place and has lead to the elimination of any form of race 

consciousness.

The study to which I want to refer is called "Racial Atti­

tudes in B r a z il ," by D r. Emilio Willems, and appeared in the 

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF SOCIOLOGY, in Volume 54, Number 5, 

1949. And I quote from it:

" . . .  Of 245 advertisers, 194 were interviewed.. . 11 

------Advertising for employment. - - -

" . . .  about the reasons for their unfavorable attitude toward Negro 

servants. In this interview, 48 were unable to give any clear ans­

wer, but they found their own attitude 'very natural.1 18 adverti -  

sers did not accept Negro servants because of presumed lack of 

cleanliness; 30 thought black housemaids were always thieves;

14 alleged instability and lack of assiduity; and 12 said only that 

they were used to white servants and did not wish to engage colored 

ones. Seven persons precluded Negroes because of the contact 

they would have with their young children. There were a few other 

reasons, such as 'race odor,' 'bad ch aracter,1 ’laz in ess,' 'care-



483

le s sn e s s ,' and other imperfections that were ascribed to Negro 

serv an ts."

The article continued:

"There are many situations in social life where white people 

refuse to be seen with Negroes. In such public places as high-class 

hotels, restaurants, casinos, (R-594) fashionable clubs and 

dances, Negroes are not desired, and there are few whites who 

dare to introduce Negro friends or relatives into such places.

Thus, discrimination was strongly resented by middleclass Neg­

roes. On the other hand, those Negroes complained bitterly of the 

contemptuous attitudes that middleclass mulattoes assumed toward 

them ."

What I am trying to point out is not that the things that are 

being attributed to Negroes in these cases are true, but that they 

are believed to be in Brazil, despite the fact that that country is 

usually described as one where racial amalgamation has succeeded 

and prejudice or even selective preference has been eliminated. I 

want to go on for one more point of this study:

"Our inquiry led to some other interesting results. In 23 

out of 36 cases the questionnaires contained references to formal 

associations of all kinds from which Negroes were excluded.

U sually.. . " —

Q» —  Is this still in B razil?

A. Still in Brazil, yes.

.Usually these associations are clubs maintained by the 

upper-class fam ilies of the city. Though there does not exist any



484

reference to Negro members In club statutes, these are rarely  

admitted.. . "

Now, still In Brazil, I would like to refer to another study 

by Professors Reger Bastide and P ierre  van den Berghe, which 

was published in the AMERICAN SOCIOLOGICAL REVIEW, Vol­

ume 22, No. 6 (IS 57). (R-595) They gave a questionnaire to

580 white Brazilian students from five different teachers' colleges 

in Sao Paulo, B razil. Let me quote:

. Stereotypes against Negroes and mulattoes are wide­

spread. 75 percent of the sample accept 23 or more stereotypes 

against Negroes. No one re jects all stereotypes against Negroes.

. . .  Mulattoes are judged inferior or superior to whites on the 

same traits as Negroes but somewhat lower percentages. The 

most widely accepted stereotypes are lack of hygiene (accepted by 

91 percent), physical unattractiveness (87 percent), superstition 

(80 percent) lack of financial stability and foresight, (77 percent), 

lack of a morality (76 percent), aggressiveness (73 percent), 

sexual 'perversity' (57 percent), and exhibitionism (50 percent).!i

Q. T ell me, Doctor Van Den Haag, on that, how much of this is just 

rationalization of the basic feeling of group identification that you 

previously discussed?

A. I could say almost all of it. I do not think myself that any of these 

traits that are being, by the respondents to the gentlemen who 

undertook the inquiries, attributed to Negroes are actually neces­

sarily associated with them, necessarily, in a higher degree than

with other races.



485
What I do think though Is this; that the whites in B razil, as 

people everywhere, have a strong group feeling. They are not 

fully aware of that group feeling, in the sense {11-596) that they're 

not fully aware that they resist and dislike mixture with Negroes; 

they're not aware of their actual reasons, which I've been trying 

to describe, so they have the feeling, and they justify it to them­

selves, by attributing to Negroes all kinds of qualities, which are 

very largely, I think, imaginary.

Q. Also, if they did in effect recognize in themselves a fundamental 

feeling of identification solely with whites, they would consider 

this quasi-shameful, in effect, to have such an attitude?

A. That probably is  the case. I'm  not sufficiently familiar with 

B razil to say for certain.

Q. Well, taking Americans, by and large, the ones with whom you 

know in setting stereotypes of this kind, we're talking here about 

group identification. I want to now find out from you whether today 

in our culture and in other cultures there is a tendency to feel a 

rather shameful attitude toward this desire to be solely with one's 

own group.

A. I'm  afraid there is .

Q. —  And rationalizes this in terms of other reasons which may 

have no validity?

A. I certainly would subscribe to this. I would like to point out that 

this tendency is very strong, very widespread, and is assisted 

through education. If I may: Most of my friends in New York c e r ­

tainly have the tendency that you have asked about that is, they



486
wouldn't for the life of themselves be willing to admit that they 

have a feeling, a (R-597) natural feeling of distance and difference 

toward Negroes. They will deny that. They go to schools them­

selves in which they are taught to deny that, and these schools are 

supposed to eliminate this feeling of selective preference.

Now, D r. Charles H. Stember has written a book, a little 

book, called THE EFFEC T OF SCHOOLING ON PREJUDICE 

AGAINST MINORITY GROUPS, which was published by the Insti­

tute of Human Relations in New York in 1961. I quote:

"Much o f . . "  —

Q. Who is D r. Stember?

A. He teaches at the Institute of Human Relations at New York, or 

did, at least then; I'm  not sure about now. I quote:

"Much of the research stresses that those who are more 

educated become less prejudiced. The present study finds no such 

clearcut relationship. On many issues the educated show as much 

prejudice as the less educated. On some issues they show more. 

The educated are more likely to hold certain highly charged and 

derogatory stereotypes. They favor informal discrimination in 

many areas of behavior. As we go up the educational ladder, old 

images of minorities are replaced by new ones which are no less 

harm ful.11

I may point out that the education which is referred to is 

usually here racially mixed education —  that Is, education in 

colleges in New York, which not only are of themselves quite liber­

al, but who have no racial discrimination in their (R-598) admission



437
policies.

I may add one other quote from Dr. Stember. This Is 

from an article that he wrote in the JOURNAL OF PSYCHOLOGY, 

1951, in which he says as follows:

------I'm  sorry. I see I made a mistake.

This is in Stember's book, but he is quoting, in turn here, 

Professor P . L. Hofstetter in an article entitled "A Factorial 

Study of Cultural Patterns In the United S ta tes ," JOURNAL OF 

PSYCHOLOGY, No. 32 (1951)

"Neither better and more widespread education nor a rise 

in the standard of living affect racial discrimination directly. 

R acial discrimination is a function.. "  —

That Is, dependent.

is a function of the relative frequency of the element 

discriminated against."

To put that into direct term s, what he says Is there will be 

the more prejudice the more contact there is between the various 

groups.

Q. This is very sim ilar to your prior study of Lander?

A. Yes.

Q. The one you referred to, —

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. —  that increase in group contact itself brings about an increase 

In what we think of as discrimination?

A. Yes, because the more group contact, the more people become

aware of their membership in their own group and(R-599) alienness



488
of the other group.

Q. Is there any evidence that the intermixture of students or that the 

increase in contact between groups has decreased discrimination?

A. I know of no such evidence except —  Well, there is one study

which you may be referring to, by Dr. Coles. In fact, to my know­

ledge, it is the only study of the kind. One would think there would 

be more. In this study called "The Desegre g a tio n of Southern 

Schools, " a psychological study by Robert Coles. He investigated 

the effect of desegregation on Negro children that had been trans­

ferred to white schools. His conclusion is this, and I quote: 

--T h ere are many points, but I quote this point:

"What is important to stress is the observation that their 

admission to the white schools In the Jouth and their attendance in 

them is stressful but not incapacitating,"

They survive, though It was stressful. That's what he 

seems to say. By "not incapacitating," I suppose he means they 

can go on, but it is a stressful situation.

Q. In other words, they can possibly live through it?

A. They live through it. Now, it should be noted though that Dr. Coles 

study was made on 60 children between ages of 6 and 7 and that he 

himself admits that these children are not representative in two 

senses; in the first place, they were the most capable and intelli­

gent Negro children —  that is, a highly selected group, and in the 

second place, whether the group is selected or not, the effect that 

occurs when very {R-600} few children transferred can in no way 

be compared to the effect that would be when a great number is



489

touched. I think D r. Coles would be the firs t one to agree that his 

study has these limitations.

Q. D r. Van Den Haage, are you acquainted with the statement that 

Jam es Hood made, the Negro who was admitted to the University 

of Alabama and then left?

A. No. He left, but I'm  not acquainted with the statement.

Q* At the time he left, he made a public statement, and I quote for you 

from what is  said in the NEW YORK TIMES.

"Jam es A_ Hood, the second Negro to attend the previously 

all-white University of Alabama withdrew suddenly to avoid a com­

plete mental and physical breakdown arising out of an emotional 

conflict from which he saw no escape. Friends and associates 

who know Hood agree that this conflict resulted from Hood's 

attempt to become a real part of the University and at the same 

time to remain loyal to the Negroes he left behind. "

Does this illustrate the point you just made?

A. Yes. I couldn't have invented it better, but I assure you I didn't

write that story in the TIME3. It clearly indicates that he wished

to become a member of the group, but it led to what Ichheiser,
called

whom I quoted b efo re ,/a  split in his personality. He could not 

sustain any longer, so he returned (R-601) to his original group, 

which I think was wise in this case. But I would like to make one 

point: This Is in college, if I understand you correctly. I would 

have assumed but I'm  learning that assumptions are not always 

true - -  that difficulty would no longer occur to that extent at col­

lege age. You see, my view has always —  and perhaps I didn't



490

make It sufficiently clear referred to grammar school and 

high school children, because it is at that time that the personality 

formation occurs, that identity is still a fluid matter, that this con­

flict could be very grave and lead to considerable damage. I 

would have assumed that by the time one reaches college age that 

it is s till a stress but not that much of a stress. But it seems, at 

least, in some cases, it is.

Q. In other words, what you mean is there Is more voluntary control 

over it as you mature ?

A. Well, yes, as you mature. By that time you have become a little
If you are normal

bit more stable;/your image of yourself has become a little more 

stable. You might have some difficulties, but they are usually 

difficulties with which you can cope.

The difficulty with high school and grammar school chil­

dren is  of the same nature, but the egos, in my opinion, are not 

usually as strong as that of a person of college age who is mature 

enough; so my fear is that they would not be able to cope with these 

difficulties. And in college age, I assume you can. (R-602)

Q. Let me read another report which was made on the same subject, 

Doctor, from the WASHINGTON POST of October 29,1963, stated 

to be a statement by a Negro girl transferred to a white Fairfax 

County high school when she said, "Some kids at Luther Jackson, 

the Negro high school in the county, won’t even speak to me now 

because they feel I have tried to drop out of my race. I just don't 

understand i t . "

Now, again, are we talking in term s of this sense that here



491

her own group tends to re ject her?

A. Well, I'd put it this way: her own group feels rejected by her for 

leaving and joining the white school. They react to that by re je c t­

ing her.

Q. Well, let me carry that one step further:

Are you saying, In effect, that the bright individual, easily 

capable, let us say, of moving from one group to another and keep­

ing up with the work, is nevertheless going to be conscious of 

these group differences and the stress which would occur?

A. I certainly am saying that, and you have yourself just illustrated 

it by the article you have quoted.

But I would like to add something else, if I may. The 

bright individual leaving his own group — and in this sense, per­

haps, the form er Negro schoolmates of this little girl had a point 

—  the bright individual leaving for a white school tends necessar­

ily to somewhat demoralize those (R- 603) non-whites who r e ­

main. It is as though you were depriving them of their natural 

leadership. The result, I should predict, is that their achieve­

ment would suffer more than it would have had these natural lead­

ers  been allowed to remain with them.

Q. Are you fam iliar with the testimony which Professor Gooden gave 

here on Monday?

A. Who?

Q. Professor Gooden, the Negro Superintendent of Schools in Jackson, 

now retired, - — gave here on Monday with respect to the fact that 

the brighter Negro children in Jackson, the ones capable of making



492
the transfer with the least possible adjustment, were the ones who 

should not go, and in his opinion and in present psychological opin­

ion, more than any they are the ones who should stay with their 

own group?

A. I fully agree with that opinion, both for their own sake and the sake 

of the group.

Q. Now, why for their own sake?

A. Because, the reason that you indeed have quoted. If they leave, 

they feel as traitors to their own group. Furthermore, they will 

have the difficulty of joining a group that they themselves, at least 

unconsciously, feel they cannot really join. Hence, they will be in 

an artificial situation, pretending to be members of a group of 

which they are not really members, not felt members, they do not 

feel members, even though they might pretend. That means there 

will be a (R-604) split between their unconscious feeling of ident­

ity and the feeling that they will try to display, and that will lead 

to all kinds of psychological turmoil.

Q. Is  this the stressful situation which D r. Coles refers to?

A. No, I don’t think he had that in mind. I think he meant by stress 

simply the difficulty that the Negro child has In a new environment. 

I don't think he meant much further.

Q. Now, is there any question of the individual's achievement potential 

and his motivation in transferring in that way? If you take an in­

dividual of one group who is an outstanding performer and you put 

him in another group where he is not as outstanding a performer, 

does it have any effect on him in terms of educational motivation?



A. If your assumption is that in the other group, though he is able to 

get along, he will no longer have the relationship of being the best 

or nearly the best in his class, the effect in all likelihood will be 

demoralizing; but this is a matter on which I certainly wouldn’t 

say we have definite evidence one way or the other —  rather, we 

have evidence on both sides.

Q. Well, you spoke about the effect on the group left behind. Could 

you explain that further? what would be the effect on the Negro 

group from which the leaders could leave?

A. Well, I think that effect will simply be that that group, apart from 

emotional reaction such as feeling betrayed by its leaders, will 

not have, so to speak, a paragon (R-605) or prototype to emulate, 

and as a result its own motivation for achievement will be consid­

erably reduced.

Q. "Would there be any sense of rejection in the group as a whole ?

A. There certainly will be the sense of rejection that you have men­

tioned yourself in the case of the Washington school girl.

Q. Would It tend to increase consciousness of lack of equal progress 

of the group that remains behind, any sense of inferior accomp­

lishment?

A. The group would literally feel left behind.

Q. In this sense, let me ask your opinion, on the question of teachers: 

Is  it your thought in this group formation that the teacher 

should be ideally a member of the same Identifiable group as the 

pupil?

A. Well, this is , I think, not a matter of opinion, but rather a matter

493



494

of observation. I have with me a paper written by Professor David 

Gottlieb of Michigan State University, who has made a number of 

observations on this matter, and they seem to me theoretically 

what I would have expected, but I would rather quote his observa­

tion. There are two kinds; he refers to, in general, the motiva­

tion of Negro children in Southern segregated schools, as distin­

guished from Northern mixed schools, and he refers also to the 

question you just mentioned. Let me quote. His paper was de­

livered at the American Orthopsychiatric Association meeting on 

March 19, 1964, and has not so far been published. (R- 606} 

Gottlieb states, and I quote;

" . . . A greater proportion of Negro students from Southern 

segregated schools indicate a desire for college than do Negro 

students from Northern schools* It is among the Negro students 

in the in ter-racial schools that the fewest students with college­

going intentions are found.11

That relates to what you have just questioned me about; 

namely, that —

Q. The greater educational motivation?

A. Y es. That's correct. He continues:

"Negro students at the Southern segregated schools are 

more likely than those in the Northern schools to match expecta­

tions with aspirations. The greatest discrepancy Is found among 

Negro youth in the Northern inter-racial high schools. "

Let me interrupt for a moment here to point out that the 

result of matching expectations with aspirations is happiness, and



495

a result of the difference between the two is what we commonly 

ca ll unhappiness. That is, if you aspire to something that you are 

actually capable of achieving and achieve it, you are reasonably 

happy, and so on; if your expectations are unrealistic —  your 

talents and your abilities and so on do not enable you to achieve 

what you expected to achieve, the result is usually a very unhappy 

and frustrated person. {R-607)

Now, about the question of Negro teachers, Gottlieb says: 

" . . .  It seems quite likely that Negro students are more 

apt to see Negro as opposed to white teachers as understanding 

their goals and as having a desire to help the student attain g o a ls ."

The explanation for this perception "may be the unique r e ­

lationship that can take place between members of the same ethnic 

or racia l group. Within the segregated classroom the Negro teach­

er can discuss and deal with specific problems unique to Negroes. 

The in ter-racial classroom setting would not be conducive to such 

a discussion even though the teacher might be a N egro."

Q. Are you fam iliar with the work AN AMERICAN DILEMMA?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. Do you recall that this was one of the works referred to by the 

Supreme Court?

A. It is In the Footnote 11.

Q. On the point on which we now are, I would like to read from that 

book one paragraph and ask if it concurs with that which you have 

just read from Dr. Gotlieb:

"Canady has reported that a group of Negro students showed



496

an average IQ six points higher when tested by a Negro psycholo­

gist than when tested by a white psychologist, and that a group of 

white students showed an average IQ six points lower when tested 

by a Negro psychologist than when tested by a white psychologist. " 

And he gives as the reference to that, CR-608} "The Effect of Rap­

port on the IQ, A New Approach to the Problem of Racial Psychol­

ogy, " printed in the JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION for April, 

1936.

Does that concur, does that agree, with what you have just 

expressed?

A. That does agree with what I have been trying to say, and in fact, 

we have new experiments since that more or less confirm this.

We may add, the younger the children, the more this is  the case. 

The child has the confidence to perform well when interrogated, 

questioned, tested by a person with whom he can identify racially, 

and lacks that confidence in himself and his own performance, and 

therefore his performance is reduced, when that is not the case.

Q. Are you fam iliar with Professor E li Ginsberg at Golumbia?

A. I know him.

Q. Do you know of his book, THE NEGRO POTENTIAL?

A. I haven’t got it, I'm  sorry.

Q* I would like to read from that one paragraph by Professor Ginsberg, 

and again ask if this concurs, if his opinion concurs, with those 

of yours:

"A Negro student who attends an interracial school in the 

North may encounter other psychological obstacles. His teachers



497
are usually white, This fact alone may inhibit the quality of his 

performance. A Negro student may be further inhibited by repeat­

ed failures to meet the competition of (R-609) better prepared 

white students."

By referring to the teachers, does this again —

A. Yes, certainly this confirms what I have been saying. It simply is 

the result you would expect,

Q. Finally, D r. Van Den Haag, you referred this morning to a Phi 

Delta Kappa Commission project by Herbert Wey and John Corey, 

entitled "Action Patterns in School Desegregation." Do you recall 

the reference?

A. Yes, and I'm  trying to find it.

Q. I would Just like to read to you one paragraph from that publication 

and again ask if this is consistent with what you have been saying: 

"After a time because of their academic deficiencies and 

because they do not feel that they are a part of the school, some 

Negroes become sullen and disgruntled. The same students who 

paid no attention to degrading remarks made to them by whites at 

the beginning of desegregation, suddenly take offense and retaliate 

at the slightest provacation."

A. Yes, and I would explain this with a term that I have previously 

used. An insulting or degrading remark is of course always un­

pleasant and is reacted to with a matching attitude, I would say, 

but what has happened here in all likelihood is that having stayed

for a while in the white school, these Negro students have become 

themselves unsure of themselves, both as to their identity and



498

their {R-610} performance ability, and as a result they become 

far more sensitive to these rem arks than they were, because the 

rem arks now find an echo in their own psychic that they did not 

before find.

In other words, the quotation you gave indicates that the 

debility, the intensity of reaction of Negro students to degrading 

rem arks, increases the longer they stay in the white school. What 

I have just said is an attempt to explain this.

Q. In other words, the increase in contact itself makes the situation 

worse, rather than better?

A. It does, because it makes the Negro student more unsure, both of 

his capacities and his identity. Thus, the insulting rem arks that 

before, so to speak, could slide off because it didn't touch any­

thing in the Negro student’s mind, now is reacted to severely be­

cause it really touches on an unconscious conviction in the Negro 

that has been formed owing to the length of his contact in the white 

school.

Q* Let me complete the reading of the portion I started from that 

study:

"A Missouri principal stated, 'From the aptitude and 

achievement scores of our colored students, it was clear that the 

majority could not cope with our academic program. Instead of 

Negroes being elevated, our whites are slowly succumbing to 

mediocrity. Typical Negro student questions were, ‘why am I not

able to learn like the white students?'1" (R-611)

Now, does this tend to show, in your opinion, D r. Van Den



499

Haag, the desirability of separate education for Negro and white?

A. It certainly does tend to show that mixed education threatens to do 

very grave harm to Negroes emotionally, without helping them ed­

ucationally, and to do very considerable harm to whites education­

ally.

Q. In your opinion, D r. Van Den Haag, which is superior, from a 

purely educational point of view: the separate school for Negro 

children and white children, or the intermixed school for both?

A. You ask about grammar and high school?

Q. I'm  talking about grammar and high school.

A, I have not the slightest doubt in term s of preventing emotional harm 

that segregated schools are required.

Q. Do you know of any studies at any time which tend to show that 

there is actually harm to the individual, mental harm to any child, 

from the use of separate schools as opposed to mixed schools?

A. Would you repeat the last part of your question?

(The question was read by the reporter)

A. I know of many assertions of such harm. I know of absolutely no 

evidence demonstrating the existence of such harm. On the con­

trary, as I tried to point out before, attempts to produce such evi­

dence has actually turnedout to show that (R-612) harm occurs 

from desegregation and not through segregation.

Q* Thank you, D r. Van Den Haag.

Is  there anything else you would like to point out?

A* One thing more, I think important, since we are discussing educa­

tion. I have with me a study called "Comparative Study of the



500

Adjustment of Negro Students In Mixed and Separate High Schools," 

which was published in the JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, 

Fall, 1943, by Roderick W, Pugh. This is, to my knowledge, the 

only study that has attempted to find out whether the performance 

of Negro students in de facto segregated schools in this case in 

Cleveland, I think, was inferior to the performance of Negro stu­

dents in mixed schools in the same sity, and Negro schools of the 

same environment. May I quote the conclusions?

The conclusions of Mr. Pugh came to this:

"There is no statistically significant difference in the 

academic achievements of Negro students in the two types of 

schools.

"There is no significant difference in their academic 

in te rests ."

And he went back to studies previously undertaken, which 

had the incidental result of leading him to this conclusion:

"No reliable difference was found in their total adjustment..

"The group in separate schools, however, showed far better
(R-Q13)

adjustment to the social life of their schools than the Negro groups 

in mixed sch oo ls."

I think that is all the additional evidence I wanted to submit.

Q* Thank you, D r. Van Den Iiaag.

THE COURT: Any questions from the defendants?

MR. CANNADA: We have no questions.

BY THE COURT: Any cross examination?

MR. YOUNG: We move to strike the testimony of this



501

witness on the ground the testimony Is not relevant to the issue in 

the case.

THE COURT: Overrule the motion.

MR, CANNADA: On behalf of the defendants, we would like 

to adopt the testimony of this witness.

THE COURT: Very well.

You may step down.

(Witness excused)

MR, PITTMAN: I would like to make a statement and then 

call our witness.

We are not jumping from one area to another; we are 

moving logically and gradually, we hope, from one area into the 

other. We have been dealing with educational and psychological 

factors, and now we will go into the anatomy, biology and genetics 

—  sciences in that field.

Your Honor will recall the Supreme Court has often, as
(R-614)

well as other courts, stated this principle, that the Constitution 

does not require things which are different in fact or opinion to be 

treated in law as though they were the same. That quotation is 

from the Perkins v. Lurens 3teel Co. case, 310 US 147, by Ju s­

tice Frankfurter.

Now, in the Brown case, the NAACP, of course, had that 

principle in mind, and they undertook to show there were no differ­

ences between the white and colored races, and that therefore the 

equal protection clause would apply, because, since there was no 

difference of consequence, there was no rational basis for d is-



502

tinguishing or for classifying one race or one people or one group 

from the other.

We have already shown by several witnesses - — well,

we've shown by the last witness, that the statement made by D r.

Redfield — and it was one of the fundamental bases for the Brown
South

decision. I will read, that again. Redfield said in the/Carolina 

case and in. other cases:

"Differences in intellectual capacity or in the ability to 

learn have not been shown to exist as between Negroes and whites, 

and, further, that the results make it very probable that if such 

differences are later shown to exist they will not prove to be signif­

icant for any educational policy or p ra c tice .11

Then, under the assumption that in spite of what D r. Red­

field has said, it might be shown by some witnesses or (R-615) 

might appear in the record that there were differences, contrary to 

what Redfield and others said, and that those differences might be 

significant. Then Myrdal's AMERICAN DILEMMA was cited, and 

in the appendix to the brief of the NAACP counsel, and Myrdal in 

several places in his work took the position that whatever differ­

ences there are were environmental and not genetic and that those 

differences, if they did exist, could be cured by changing the en­

vironment of the Negro child —  that is , if you put the Negro child 

in school with the white child, changing his environment to that ex­

tent, then you would cure that difference.

I quote from page 139 of Myrdal on that point. He says:

"Compared to the average white man, the average Negro



503

of the present day seems to exhibit the following physical t r a i t s . . 

— I 'l l  not read them, but I 'l l  read one:

" . . .  Cranial capacity slightly l e s s ."

That is , the Negro's cranial capacity is slightly less.

Notice the word "sligh tly ." Then on the same page, he continues* 

"Cranial capacity and perhaps other traits are also modi­

fiable by environmental changes, and the differences do not there­

fore necessarily or wholly represent hereditary t r a its ." (R-616) 

Now, that was cited in Footnote 11,

We move now in this case to the genetic factors involved.

We will offer testimony to show that environment will not change 

the physiological and morphological matters that control whether 

or not one may, as Redfield said, have ability to learn; and so now, 

at tills point, we leave the psychological area, without clear cleav­

age, and we go to the morphological area.

ME. YOUNG: Your Honor, may it please the Court, inas­

much as counsel for the intervenors has stated what his reasons 

are and what the witnesses expect to introduce now and testify to—  

that is , to the anatomical differences of the Negroes and whites—  

we respectfully move to strike all of the testimony on the same 

grounds as we did heretofore, that it is irrelevant to the issues in 

this case. We respectfully submit that the only Issue before this 

Court is whether or not the Jackson Public Schools are in fact 

operating a segregated school system, and if so, in light of the

Brown decision, the Court has no other choice but to rule, if it is 

operating a segregated school system, then to make the injunction



504

permanent; and we respectfully submit that the testimony about to 

be submitted by the intervenors Is Irrelevant and should be struck, 

and we move to strike it out.

THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the motion and let the 

testimony be produced. If it is not relevant and has no bearing on 

the issues at all, then at the appropriate time I (R-617) will ex ­

clude it or disregard it as having no probative force.

So let the testimony be produced.

DR. ROBERT E , KUTTNER, called as a witness by the intervenors

and having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. PITTMAN:

Q* Give the reporter your name, your occupation, and your address.

A. Robert E . Kuttner, I teach at the Creighton school of Medicine, 

Omaha, Nebraska.

Q* Will you state for the record, Doctor, briefly something about the 

training you have received and the degrees you have received?

A. I have a doctorate in zoology from the University of Connecticut.

I attended from 1952 until 1958. I have spent three years in post 

graduate work in brain chemistry at a mental hospital in Connecti­

cut, Institute of Living.

Q* Now, you're not talking to the reporter. You're talking to the 

people in the back of the room.

A. And for the past three years I have been teaching normal biology 

and preclinical sciences, department of Creighton University



505

School of Medicine. And I have done research in brain chemistry 

and biochemical anthropology, and I have done some work in bio­

logical and psychological areas relative to Man. (R-618)

Q. A little louder as you go.

Now, will you please state for the record of what societies 

you are a member? Or some of them?

A. American Association for the Advancement of Science; The Inter­

national Institute of Sociology; Nebraska Academy of science; 

American Chemical Society; Sigma XI, honorary professional 

society, and various other — - The Eugenics Society of the United 

States; Eugenics Society of Great Britain.

Q. Do you hold any offices in any scientific societies at this tim e?

A. I was form erly president of the International Association for the 

Advancement of Ethnology and Eugenics, and I'm  still on the board 

of d irectors.

Q. Doctor, have you published a number of works in your field in 

physiological chemistry, neurochemistry, biology, psychology, 

and so on?

A. Yes, s ir .

MR. PITTMAN: I tender at this time, Your Honor, the 

biographical statement, together with a list of the publications, 

notes and communications that D r. Kuttner has authored in his 

field.

THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence and marked 

as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 12)



506

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to 

be inspected.) (R-619)

MR. PITTMAN: Will the Court now hold D r. ICuttner 

qualified as an expert?

THE COURT: Y es. He is  qualified as an expert.

Q. Dr.Kuttner, in the studies you have made, are you fam iliar with 

the biological and physiological differences that exist between 

races and the bases therefor?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Will you state what some of those processes, physical and biologi­

cal processes, are by which the traits or characteristics are hand­

ed down from generation to generation? And we realize that you 

could talk about that for a week, but will you please take about it 

briefly and summarize it, if you can?

A, Well, the subject you are referring to is the branch of zoology 

known as genetics. This field of study is devoted to elucidating 

the mechanisms by which physical tra its and psychological traits 

are passed from parent to offspring. And for the past 75 years or 

more, this process has been in the hands of specialists in various 

branches of biology, and in the present time these various branches 

have contributed to a common understanding of the subject, which 

includes information from chemistry, biology, botany, histology.

Now, to put this in lay language, we know that in every cell 

there is a nucleus. In every nucleus of every body cell, barring

certain exceptions like the red cell, there are (R-620) elements 

called chromosomes, that when a cell divides, these chromosomes



507
divide also. And these chromosomes are known to control the in­

heritance of tra its . They store the information by which a new 

cell builds itself. They are the blue prints. These chromosomes 

are further subdivided into units called genes, and these genes, 

by chemical analysis and by other means, have been shown to con* 

tain substances called nucleic acids.

Now, we have gotten down to the very basic moleculer 

structure. These nucleic acids are long molecules, long chains, 

and they have as part of their structure various organic bases, 

and the arrangement of these bases, the sequences of these bases, 

provide the code by which the cell stores the information it needs 

to build itself. These are nucleic acid triplets, and each triplet 

informs the synthetic machinery of the cell what amino acids to 

place in what position in a protein.

So we move now from the unit of inheritance, the nucleic 

acid, to protein. Now, proteins are the most important element 

in protoplasm, and some of these proteins have very active func­

tions in the cell. They are catalysts, and these in turn are called 

enzymes.

Now, the activity of these enzymes determines metabolism, 

and metabolism, to define that briefly, is the synthesis or break­

down of cell components - -  nutritional CR-Q21} elements and 

structural elements in the cell. By controlling the formation and 

the proportion of enzymes made, which enzymes are made, how 

much, whether are normal or abnormal enzymes - -  because we 

do have instances where enzymes have been modified by some



508
accident and, therefore, their activity is lost — but by regulating 

the formation, the amount, the quality of these catalysts in the 

cells, we thereby regulate all the activities of the cells , of all 

ce lls , and this includes not only soratic cells of the body in gener­

al, but also the cells that are associated with mental functions, 

which would include all the cells of the central nervous system, 

the peripheral nervous system, and likewise the same process 

would apply to endocrine glands, which also regulate body activity 

and mental activity.

I think I have summarized.

Q. Now, you come eventually, do you not, to the determination of 

individual differences in human beings? Is that correct?

A. Yes. The individual differences would ultimately be traced to the 

operation of the same forces in the cell, the cells of that individ­

ual or that organism. We could picture this by a reference to, 

say, bone, that if the enzymes that regulate the formation of bone 

were very active, we would have more bone growth; if the endo­

crine substances were very active, that would play a role in this 

formation, then we would have increased growth. On the other 

hand, other (R-622) systems in the body would likewise be r e ­

sponsible. I picked for an example the bone, but I could have pick­

ed any example to illustrate this point. And differences in bone 

would determine the person's height, or differences in endocrine 

function would determine how fast he grows and how tall he grows.

This would also be determined as metabolism, how fast he burns 

his food, how active he is. It would determine every biological



509
activity.

Q* Nov/, Doctor, te ll us whether or not the protein molecules and the 

nucleic acids which you spoke about govern or determine individual 

differences, and also govern functions, as well as those structural 

differences.

A. Well, the illustration of bone would have been a demonostration of 

how a structural element is  produced, the quantity of it and the 

quality of it. The amount of an enzyme form may determine the 

activity of an organ. If v/e have inherited a stomach which secretes 

a lot of acid, this would all be traced back to a genetic element, 

because originally there was a trait which involved the enhanced 

production of protein to make a stomach cell. There would have 

been regulators in that cell which were inherited which would con­

trol the amount of stomach acid produced, and we would have by 

this means bridged the gap between the physiological and the mole­

cular. But to take it a step further, this demonstration has in It a 

number of steps, and the connection between these steps are the 

subject matter of many sciences. Briefly, however, if we (R-6231 

were to demonstrate the functional activity with respect to nucleic 

acid, we could inject these substances into the body or destroy 

them by some means, and then determine what changes took place 

in behavior. Likewise, we could destroy them or modify them and 

search for difference in structure.

So in term s of this original analysis, we have the ability

in the enzymes to modify nucleic acid by some means, and then 

search for resulting change in structure, anatomy, or function.



510

Q. Now, are there any behavioral differences in animals, we'll say, 

which we may relate to human beings, which could be correlated 

with chemical activity in the brain?

A. Well, in the end, of course, the total capacity of the brain depends 

upon its inherited equipment, the apparatus that you have, and the 

genetic m aterials are the basis for the amount of apparatus, the 

amount of equipment, you have, and the quality of it. To show 

that nucleic an ids play a role, —- this again is very recent work 

- —one can feed or inject substances into animals or modify the 

body's mechanism for making these substances, and then search 

for differences. Now, this has been done from animals ranging 

in simplicity from the flat worm up to human, but, again, this is 

very recent. I may illustrate perhaps in between — the inter­

mediary range between the flat worm and the human might be the 

laboratory rat. In this case, if you inject certain substances or

drugs which are known to interfere with nucleic acids synthesis in
(R-624)

the body, such substances are being produced and examined be­

cause of the interest in slowing down cell growth in the field of 

cancer research . But these same substances when injected into 

animals very often will interfere with the nucleic acid synthesis in 

the central nervous system, and thereby produce behavioral 

changes. Rats treated with such drugs lose the ability to learn 

certain tasks. Again, feeding the substances into rats for a long 

period of time —  Now, I'm  not referring to the same substances, 

but feeding the nucleic acids themselves to animals has been r e ­

ported in recent articles to enhance their learning ability up to a



certain point. Likewise, by feeding these substances to persons 

suffering from degenerative changes in the brain due to old age 

have been presumably benefitted from it, so far as memory func­

tion is  concerned.

Q. Would that be a permanent benefit or temporary?

A. This probably would be a temporary one. Again, it's  very recent.

Q. Because if it ’s permanent, I want some.

A. The assessm ent of the importance of this for these animals is not 

yet complete.

But what I have tried to make here as a point is that these 

nucleic acid substances, which are not only the basis for the fo r­

mation of the heredity of the organism, but they are the blueprints, 

the information storage depots of the cell, may likewise be the in­

formation storage depots of the (R-625) central nervous system, 

where we are not storing biological information, but behavioral 

information, or something that we have learned.

Q. Now, to shorten that, Doctor, would these various functions and 

activities of the brain, the endocrine glands, are they under gene­

tic control or under environmental control?

A. Well, they are very certainly under genetic control. I think I 

mentioned a little earlier the chain of sequences that occurs be - 

tween the laying down of the nucleic acid and then the final effect. 

This is the general answer to this question, and I can’t answer it 

more except to say that the brain is a structure; its function is 

thought; its function is determined by enzymes, by hormones, by 

potentials on the membranes, by the general metabolism. Now,

511



512

this metabolism is the same for the brain as it is for the cells, 

and we inherit a capacity. We inherit our enzymes' rate of form a­

tion. In this way, certainly the function of the brain, its activities, 

are under genetic control.

Q. May I ask you this, Doctor: Is there any way, or are there any 

studies that have been made or can be made which will illustrate 

the fact that behavioral differences are inherited in human beings?

A. Well, of course, we can't study human beings as in the chemical 

realm very well because of the laws. We can't (R-626) operate 

with human beings as we can with animals; the demonstration 

with human beings would be impossible in our society.

Q. Something has been said here about twin studies.

A. Well, that Is an indirect way, but to answer your question, I think 

that the way that most people would think of a demonstration would 

be by analogy from animals. This we can show. We can take an­

imals that have been found to be intelligent, animals that learn 

rapidly - - a  strain of rats - -  and then we can take another strain 

from the same original breed that have been selected for slower 

learning, or less  potential to learn, and study the chemistry of the 

nervous systems in these animals, and we do find that there are 

chemical differences that accompany behavioral differences. For 

instance, in a nerve enzyme called cholinesterase the levels of 

this enzyme are different in smart rats from the levels in retard­

ed rats, and this trait —

Q* —  You might state, if you will, Doctor, in that experiment by 

which that was determined, how do you find the difference between



513
the dull rats and the smart ra ts?

A. Well, It is an artificial distinction based upon a single task. There 

are many ways you can test a rat. One way is to run them through 

a maze, and they learn very quickly whether there is a reward in 

this alley or another alley, and when they learn this task they 

have been tested by (R-627) criteria  and are assumed to be in­

telligent. How many times you have to run them before they learn 

is a measure of their intelligence. Then you can take from the 

same breed other rats which are less successful In finding the 

motivating factor for their talcing the test. The rats so separated 

when bred together - - -  these two groups are bred together - - -  

preserve their trait of fast or slow learning, and from generation 

to generation —  and for rat generations, many many dozens —  

the traits persist. Likewise, the chemical trait.

About how many years did it take to carry this experiment with 

rats?

A. Well, I don't reca ll because this was done many, many decades 

ago; the initial selection and breeding experiment was done in 

California decades ago. The strains still exist, and the difference 

in learning still p ersists, and the difference in the chemistry, 

which was only discovered perhaps ten years ago, is still present.

Q,. How long ago did you say this difference in chemistry was discov­

ered? Did you say chemistry?

A- Chemistry. The difference in chemistry was discovered about ten 

years ago in these brains.

Since about 1954?



514
A. L et's  put It about that date. A little later possibly.

Q. Now, are you fam iliar with an article by Sir Cyril Burt, that deals 

sith that subject, "The Inheritance of Mental (R-628) A bility"?

A. Yes, I am fam iliar with that article, and this is another means o f--

Q. F irs t , te ll us who D r. Burt was.

A. Dr. Burt was a  psychologist employed by the London County School 

Board approximately 50 years ago to study the learning abilities 

of school children in England. And this he did for the greater part 

of his life, and he finally summarized his findings, and this was 

published in THE AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGIST, Vol. 13, January 

'51.

Q. Is that '51 or '58?

A. '58. I'm  sorry. This article was entitled "The Inheritance of Men­

tal Ability1' and culminates his act of life. He had already retired.

Q. Would you state for the record the conclusions reached by Sir Cyril 

Burt, D r. Burt, with which you agree on the subject you have been 

discussing?

A. Well, so far as his work is relevant to my field, he was employing 

a method of study which was designed to determine the components 

of heredity and the components of environmental influences that 

made up the mental abilities of school children. He was searching 

for a way of determining what relative amounts we could ascribe to 

these two different mechanisms of influencing children - environ­

ment and genetic components - in the whole make-up of mental 

ability; so he employed for his study children drawn from (R-629) 

different schools and determined the closeness of their genetic



515
association ana sought thereby to see if this closeness was cor re - 

lated with their intelligence. He was using, in other words, the 

twin study method of determining' the degree of genetic influence 

in a trait. This method is used not only for mental, but also phy­

sical tra its . We all know that identical twins are called identical 

because they are identical. This we can see visibly. We know 

that some of the invisible traits, the ones we don't notice, like 

fingerprints, blood types, are also identical. The question is, are 

the mental abilities also identical? This is hard to tell, and the 

only way you can do this is to test these individuals with formal 

examinations designed for measuring various capacities of the 

brain.

3o he took such identical twins from the school system of 

London, and he took besides the identical twins that were reared 

apart. This is, of course, something that happens, unfortunately; 

the twins were separated at birth, or shortly after; and they are 

genetically identical, all descended from one egg, the same egg; 

they share the same prenatal experience, and their genetic equip­

ment is identical, since they are the same cell divided twice and 

became two individuals; but now, when these individuals are born, 

they are separated in some instances, perhaps through the inabil­

ity of the mother to support the two children, or for other reasons, 

and so he had in his samples some such individuals also. (R-630) 

THE COURT: Doctor, just remember where you are leav­

ing off, and we are going to take a ten minute recess.

{Ten minute recess)



After Recess
516

MR. PITTMAN CONTINUES:

Q, Dr. Kuttner, you were testifying concerning D r. B u rt's  study en­

titled The Inheritance of Mental A bility ,11 and I wonder if you 

would not for us summarize the results of that study. I believe 

you have explained how it was conducted, but if you have not fully 

done that, continue that, and then summarize the results and tell 

us whether or not you agree with his conclusions.

A. I was explaining that D r. Burt selected out of the school population 

individuals whose genetic association varied. There were in that 

group identical twins. These are really two persons who share 

their heredity completely because they all were derived from one 

egg, one fertilized egg. And he had two types of identical twins: 

he had the identical twin that was reared in the same home; and he 

had the identical twins that were separated. This was the second 

kind.

Now, when you have an identical twin reared in the same 

home, raised in the same home, you have individuals who share 

heredity; they also share a common environment insofar as the 

same parental influence, same family influence, (R-631) same 

local community, same school. When the twins are separated, 

there is a different person raising the twins; they probably go to 

different schools; probably there are different economic levels in 

the home. This then varies the environmental influence, but, of

course, the genetic influence can't be modified.

In other words, the socio-economic factors are different where



they are reared apart?

A. That's correct.

Q. And if they are reared together, they are the same.

A. That's right.

Q. Go ahead.

A. For instance, the grandmother may be raising one twin and indulg­

ing that twin, whereas the mother may be very strict with the one 

left with her.

In addition to identical twins, he also had fraternal twins 

or twins who were just like brother and sister, born at the same 

time but not from the same egg. These two individuals are not any 

more closely linked in genetic traits than brothers or s isters.

There were two eggs fertilized at one time, and these are two in­

dividuals. And he had groups of non-identical twins that were re a r­

ed together.

Finally, — Well, not finally, but he had siblings, ordinary 

brothers and sisters  but not fraternal twins, that were reared to­

gether; and he had siblings, brothers and (R-632) s isters, who 

were reared apart; and finally, he had the regular school popula­

tion of unrelated children. And these completed his study.

3o he tested these individuals with various tests employed 

in England —  some of them also employed in this country - — and 

showed that the correlation between their test performance followed 

very closely the closeness of their genetic link, that the identical 

twins scored on these exams to about the same degree of profici­

ency, to about the same extent. The correlation in term s of num­

517



bers was . 9 and higher.

Q. How much?

A. Well, as far as various Intelligence tests, he gives numbers like 

.944, .921, .925. — That's "Final Assessment, .9 2 5 .11 This is 

considered a very high correlation. As a matter of fact, if the 

same individual were to take the test twice -« if a single individual 

took this exam today aid then was retested two or three days later, 

his scores on these exams would not be any closer than the two 

identical twins talcing it at one time. Jo it's  actually like one per­

son talcing the exam when identical twins take It.

When the twins were separated, there was also a very high 

correlation. Now, these identical twins when separated also 

scored very high in this correlation. They were close to . 9. The 

actual number is . 876, the Final Assessment. (R-633) This 

means that though these twins were separated, their performance 

was almost identical, a duplicate.

Now, comparing this correlation to that of non-identical 

twins reared together, or to brothers and sisters reared together, 

we have sums like . 551 and . 538. What tills means is that identi­

cal twins, even when separated, score almost identical grades on 

these exams for intelligence, for general intelligence, while indi­

viduals who are not closer related than brother and sister or fra ­

ternal twins, 2-egg twins, they score much less alike. Now, when 

identical twins are separated and we have a completely different 

environment, and when non-identical twins or siblings - brothers 

and sisters  - are reared together, we have the same environmental

518



influences, but a much more distant genetic link, and yet though 

the environment remains close for the non-identical twins reared 

together or for brothers and sisters, still the identical twins score 

much closer grades to each other even though reared apart. Now, 

this demonstrates that the genetic components in learning ability, 

in mental ability, are more important than the environmental in­

fluence.

Q. Now, can you state that in round figures?

A. Well, on page 9 of this article, Burt does state this in term s of 

numbers.

Q. Will you read that, for the record?

A. I will. He begins, "From  Table 2 . . .  " lie refers to a table (R-634) 

from which he draws his data:

. .  it will be seen that, with the crude test results, taken 

just as they stand, nearly 23% of the total variance appears due to 

non-genetic influences, i . e . ,  to environment or to unreliability, 

and about 77% to genetic factors; . . . 11

And he continues:

" . . .  with the adjusted assessments only about 12% (or 

slightly more) is apparently due to non-genetic influences and 88% 

to genetic fa c to r s ."

Q* What does he mean there when he says - - - I  believe that study has 

been used, Doctor, by some other witness, and he stated a differ­

ent figure from that 88.

88%, which means that the influence of the genetic element counts 

almost for the entire test performance, and only 12 percent en­

519



520

vironmental influence. What this means is that this Is almost en­

tirely a physical trait, or inherent as a physical trait. Now, the 

numbers here, for the two numbers he gives — 77% and 38% - -  

are both very large, both very convincing; but he is able to adjust 

his figure, his actual crude data figure of 77% to 88% by making 

certain corrections. And he corrects —

Q. Now, what does that mean in term s of mental ability, or educabil­

ity?

A. I think what —  "Well, I don't know if I finished what I was going to 

say here on this number.

In testing children, you have to know a little about them
(R-635)

when they take their examination, and there are cases where mal­

treatment at home might affect the child's performance, or 

whether the background of the child is such that he Is not able to 

perform in school for reasons not connected with his genetic abil­

ity; so by interviewing these students and checking on their homes 

and so forth, he was able to eliminate certain individuals from the 

sample. When he does that, then he reaches the number of 8896.

And this means, this adjustment here that he makes, even 
not

though this adjustment is/Important —  if you didn't make it, it 

doesn't change the picture so far asthe meaning of my testimony is 

concerned, because 77% is not that different from 88%. It means 

that the mental ability that these students display in term s of gen­

eral intelligence Is very largely, almost exclusively, due to their 

physical inheritance. That's what it means.

Q* Is there anything that can be done to change the inheritance of chil­



dren? In other words, that 88% could not be changed by any 

method of Instruction? Is  that right?

A. Well, it is possible to destroy some of this correlation environ­

mentally. If you beat the children before they take the exam, they 

will be distracted. And this Is actually one thing he is checking 

for; seeing that the child is fed, so that when he is tailing the 

exam there is no distraction due to hunger. You can lower the 

correlation, but you can't change the native ability. However you 

measure it, whether (R-636) it's  77 or 88 percent, the fact r e ­

mains that it is genetic, and changing the genetic ability is some­

thing that is beyond our science.

Q. Do you have any other studies along that same line, Doctor, that 

come to substantially the same conclusion?

A. Well, in the same study there are scattered references, but I don't 

think that I have to quote them here any further. The interesting 

thing about the Burt study is that he employed the twin study meth­

od, which is one of the finest or least ambiguous methods of dem­

onstrating the connection between genetic endowment and some be­

havioral or some anatomical traits.

Now, the other study that I have here which bears on this 

subject is  —

Q, —  Before you go to the other, Doctor, I would like to identify "The 

Inheritance of Mental Ability, " by Dr. Burt, for the record, 

please.

THE COURT: Was that for Identification?

MR. PITTMAN: We offer it in evidence.

521



522

THE COURT: Very well. Let It be received in evidence.

{Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 13)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. Nov/, proceed, Doctor.

A. Well, along the lines of twin studies, there is another article here 

which illuminates the preceding article and helps validate it. This 

article is entitled "Twins Brought Up A part." (R-637)

Q. Would you state the author of that article and when it was publish­

ed? Is that the one in EUGENICS REVIEW?

A, That's correct, EUGENICS REVIEW of July, 1958, and the author 

is Jam es Shields of the Genetics Unit of the Institute of Psychiatry, 

Maudsley Hospital, London, England.

Q. Now, both of these studies, the twin studies, were made In England.

A. Thai's correct.

Q. And they were made since 1954?

A. That’s right. This article has been published in 1958.

Q. All right. T ell us about that study.

A. This study originated by a television appeal to English listeners or 

viewers that if they were one member of an identical twin pair, 

they should come forward and volunteer for research. By this 

means, this wide publicity, Shields obtained a large group of ident­

ical twins that were separated at birth, or very shortly thereafter. 

He obtained a sample size twice as large as the preceding one,

which I'm  not going to quote. He obtained a total group of 38 

I believe that's the number —  38 pairs of identical twins that were



523

separated at birth or shortly thereafter. Some of these twins had 

been separated for the entire childhood and adult life and never 

met until they were introduced by the sponsors of this research.

One twin would come in in response to the broadcast, and CR-638} 

they would locate the other twin in some cases living as far apart 

as Denmark and Ghile.

And the importance of this paper is that this separation here 

is complete. This maximizes the environmental factor. These 

identical twins were reared apart by completely different parties.

In some cases, perhaps, it might have been a grandmother or an 

aunt, or in other cases they might have been reared apart separat­

ed by oceans, The environmental difference was very pronounced 

here. They weren’t, in most cases, even living in the same city, 

as in the case of Burt who drew his samples from the schoolrooms.

This study then is important because of the separation fac­

tor, which is so complete, so total, and therefore emphasizes the 

environmental factor, and also because it's  such a large group,

38 pairs, the largest group studied, although since then he has 

found

Q. What was the conclusion reached as a result of that study?

A Shields likewise gave intelligence tests, and he found that identical 

twins when raised apart still resembled one another more closely 

than ordinary siblings raised in the same household. The correla­

tion was again very high, the numbers of . 77, . 74. This is very 

high compared to the correlation figures given for siblings raised 

in the same home, which is . 5. These numbers may differ a little



524
bit, but then, of course, the testing conditions differ and the type

of environment in the test situation differs, and there may be some 
(R-639)

factors there, but again his correlation is very high. And it shows, 

as Shields emphasizes throughout the paper, that the genetic factor 

is predominant in the inheritance of intelligence, or test perform­

ance that measured the intelligence.

Q. Did he come to the conclusion finally that environment does not 

fundamentally alter the personality of the child?

A. Well, I said that he measured intelligence. Now, actually, his 

actual interest was personality. Of course, in this case, the r e ­

port is based on self assessment and on observation. I t ’s not a 

m etrical quality you could put in numbers, but there were striking 

resem blances in the behavioral traits. The personality traits of 

these twin pairs, even though separated - -  the type of mental 

quirks, neurotic symptoms a person showed, appeared in the 

other twin despite the fact that they were raised in different envi­

ronments. The tastes for music and so forth were sometimes 

sim ilar; their mannerisms were similar; and again this empha­

sized the importance of the genetic element.

And he adds, on page 121 of this article, and I quote it: 

"From  the material as a whole one gains the impression 

that the personality of the mother and her methods of child rearing 

can vary quite a considerable degree without fundamentally altering 

the personality of the ch ild ." (R-640)

- —Because these were In fact different mothers raising these 

children. And this underlines and supports the work of Burt, who



525

had a sm aller sample of Identical twins, and these Identical twins 

that Burt worked with for the most part came from the London 

school environment. Many of Shield’s cases, of course, involved 

wide separation - -  one in an urban community, one in a rural com­

munity — and yet the type of responses that these people gave to 

interview situations were very sim ilar.

So again we stress the importance of the genetic element 

here in the intelligence-personality.

MR. PITTMAN: I tender this study by Jam es Shields for 

identification and admission into the record.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 14) 

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to 

be inspected.)

Q. Doctor, are you fam iliar with any articles, any other articles, of 

this nature, "The Inheritance and Nature of Extraversion"?

A. Well, the article I have here —

Q. What does that mean, "extraversion"?

A. It’s a measure of a  personality trait.

Do you have articles on that with which you agree?

A. Well, I have an article here that I am going to cite. The reason 

for it, of course, I think will be evident. This article is also from 

EUGENICS REVIEW. (R-641)

Q* What is  the date of that?

A. April, 1956,



526

Q. That is , of course, since 1954. Now, go ahead and te ll us - -

A. The title of this article is "The Inheritance and Nature of E xtra­

version. " The author is H. J .  Eysenck.

Now, this article is likewise devoted to twin study, and 

Eysenck is a very well known and competent psychologist in Eng­

land.

Q, State for the record where this paper was first read.

A. It was at the meeting of the Eugenics Society in 1955, December 

7th — members' meeting of the Eugenics Society.

Q. Go ahead.

A. The work that Eysenck carried out on these twins, he obtained 

them from the area of greater London, and he carried out a wide 

battery of examinations and found that identical twins —  now, 

these were not separated twins; they were identical twins in the 

same environment — - performed on various intelligence tests - -  

obtained scores that were very close. Nov;, this confirms the 

previous references I have made.

Likewise, he gave tests for autonomic function. Autonomic 

function is related to endocrine function, neuro-endocrine and ner­

vous function, and things like blood pressure, for instance, and 

temperature, and responses to stimuli. These things are part of 

the spectrum of things one would measure when interested in deter­

mining autonomic (R-642) function. He gave such tests.

Likewise, he gave personality tests to measure introver­

sion and extraversion, and again, these are personality traits that 

I mentioned. This trait - -  It 's  not important, I suppose, to go into



what the traits are, but the outgoing person and the inward-looking 

person would define these traits. Well, there are means of scal­

ing these qualities in individuals, and one can employ various 

tests.

Q. What is the significance of his findings?

A. Well, the significance is that a personality trait —  Now, I men­

tioned already the intelligence and autonomic tests. Now, the per­

sonality test of extraversion. These three items he found to be 

genetically determined. They were very close in scores, in 

scores obtained. These identical twins in these studies obtained 

scores on these examinations that were very close - -  high enough 

correlation to indicate the genetic components being dominant.

So these three things, autonomic ability, intelligence, 

extraversion-introversion, were found by Eysenck to be correlated 

with the genetic components. This is important because personal­

ity makes up part of the total individual; it's  not just intelligence. 

It's  a temperamental trait that is shown to pass on In the process 

of inheritance in the same way as a physical trait or a mental 

trait. We have here a personality trait that Is found to be inherit­

ed, by twin study method. This means that in the end we have 

those (R-643) genetic elements in the cell as the primary respon­

sible factor in this. Twins obtained the same genetic equipment 

and displayed the same personalities, so far as this measure is 

concerned.

The other thing that is interesting here is that the autonomic 

test indicated that the genetic element is very strong. Autonomic

•527



528
is in part a member or part of the team that makes up the endo­

crine system. We have, I think, mentioned in the earlier part of 

my testimony that endocrines are related to intelligence; they are 

one way of regulating cell metabolism, and likewise they influence 

the brain, and certain endocrine changes can affect learning or 

wipe out the ability to learn. The classical example there is 

cretinism , which I should have mentioned earlier. The absence 

of a  hormone will make a person an idiot, and yet the replacement 

of this hormone will restore to him his normal function. This is 

an extreme example, but we know that the endocrine system, the 

neuro-endocrine system, the autonomic functions that are part 

of the peripheral nervous system are all inherited. Of course, 

he has measured only this single component, and he has demon­

strated, however, with this single component the extraversion fac­

tor, that there is a very high dependence upon the genetic close­

ness, which, in turn, demonstrates the importance of genetic e le­

ment in manifesting this trait. (R-644)

Now, I can cite certain parts of this article here that 

summarizes some of this.

Q* I don't believe you need to do that. You testify, do you, Doctor, 

that the findings of this gentleman Eysenck correlate with the find­

ings made with respect to the twins to which you have testified, 

except they involve different characteristics?

A- They agree, and they extend the work. They agree with the pre­

ceding work, and they extend it to include the personality factor, 

which Shields himself brought up but did not quantify. He based



529

his conclusions upon interpretation and sell-assessm ent. This 

man measured with tests and obtained a number, which one to 

manipulate according to symetrical quality.

Q. It moves the same frontier of knowledges a little bit further back 

in another area?

A. That is correct.

Q. That's right?

A. In an equally important area, the personality being as important 

as the intelligence in day to day operations of society.

MR. PITTMAN: I'd like to identify this article for the 

record, please, and offer it in evidence.

THE COURT; Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 15)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.) (R-645)

Q. Now, Doctor, in our efforts to move back the frontiers of know­

ledge a little more than in recent years, I call your attention a 

study by Steven G. Vandenberg and ask if you are familiar with 

that study, "The Hereditary Abilities Study: Hereditary Compon­

ents in a Psychological Test Battery"?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that study published, Doctor ?

A. That was published in June of 1962.

Q* What publication ?

A. In the AMERICA,N JOURNAL OF HUMAN GENETICS.

W What is the title of that article ?



A. ”The Hereditary Abilities Otudy: Hereditary Components in a 

Psychological Test Battery.

Q. Have you read that article or studied it recently enough to give us 

the benefit of the conclusions?

A. This study originated with a group of twins, and physical, anthro­

pological qualities were measured - -  components - -  and it was 

extended by Vandenberg to include aspects of brain function.

The importance of this study hangs upon the fact that, un­

like the previous studies where general intelligence was measured, 

Vandenberg broke down the general factors into components, and 

he separated out from the arsenal of psychology and physiology a 

total of 117 separate test devices or scoring devices. He broke 

down the factor of (R-646) intelligence into subdivisions or speci­

fic factors, and he has a total of 117 separate scores from various 

categories. Some were drawn from the usual mental abilities 

tests, like verbal ability, mathematical ability, computational 

skills, phrase comprehension, and then various other tests that 

measure your ability to reason, motor skills, perceptual skills, 

sensory tests, and measures of other things — personalities and 

musical tastes, and so forth. And he took 117 such scores and 

administered them to 45 pairs of identical twins and 37 pairs of 

fraternal twins from high schools in Dearborn and Detroit.

This is an American study. The study was performed at 

the University of Michigan, the Institute of Human Biology.

And he found that with varying degrees of significance, but 

all the data being significant, he found that almost half of these

530



531
tests showed the operation of genetic factor being the significant 

factor. In other cases, about half, or slightly more than half, he 

did reach a level of significance. Some of these tests, perhaps 

tapping with the finger In time with the music, and so forth, these 

were not conditioned, were not related to the genetic factor, or 

might have been environmental; but almost half, 44 percent of the 

testees of the 117 were shown to have genetic components import­

ant or predominant. At least, they reached the level of signifi­

cance by statistical tests. (14-647)

And he concludes, or he makes tills statement here:

"The results reported indicate that hereditary factors 

play a role in many areas of human skilled performances, often 

in spite of the fact that these skills are highly practiced. "

In other words, this twin study method has shown some 

skills of the 117 that he enumerates, though they could be, in the 

opinion of the common man, acquired by practice, still a degree 

of performance and a degree of skill was limited or controlled by 

the genetic inheritance of these twins,

That is the importance of the test, the fact that he has 

demonstrated the separate components, the specific factors, in­

stead of general intelligence, and broken them down and showed 

which were highly correlated with genetics and which were loosely 

or not at all correlated with genetics.

MR. PITTMAN: I tender tills study by Vandenberg in 

evidence.

THE COURT: Let It be received.



532

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 16}

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original Is to

be inspected.)

Q* Now, each of the studies concerning which you have testified are 

quite recent studies, so far. After you reviewed these recent 

studies, have you reached any conclusion regarding Individual 

human differences in behavior and psychological tra its, and 

whether or not they are more determined by (R-648) heredity or 

environment? — Before I ask you that question though, I believe 

I should ask you this:

Do you know of any other new material, before I ask for 

that conclusion, that you would like to refer to or discuss before 

giving your final conclusion?

A. Well, I can answer both of those questions at once. I do have here 

an article which reviewed this entire field, and I accept as my 

conclusion, the conclusion of this article.

Q. All right, if you would like to use that, you may state the substance 

of it, please.

A. This is the most recent summary of this entire area, and it was 

published in SCIENCE, December 13, 1963, Volume 142, entitled 

"Genetics and Intelligence — A Review."

Now, this was published by the Department of Medical 

Genetics of New York State Psychiatric Institute.

Q* Would you please, Doctor, since I don't have a copy, read that 

portion of that recent article that you believe relevant and material 

in arriving at the conclusion which you have come to?



533

A. Well, I will read the abstract, which is in this journal the equiva­

lent of the summary.

Q. All right.

A. "A survey of the literature of the past fifty years reveals

remarkable consistency in the accumulated data relating mental 

functioning to genetic potentials. Intergroup resemblance (R-649) 

in intellectual ability increases in proportion to the degree of gene­

tic relationship."

That's the end of the quote. *

Now, this is shown in a table here, and one gets the range 

of the relationship. At the same time, one gets the range of the 

test criteria . Now, this total study reviewed a total of 52 separate 

studies covering a 50 year period of research, and it was found 

that, to re-sta te  the abstract by looking at this table here, this 

figure, that the degree of correlation between intelligence and 

mental tra its  is  not too great between people who are not related. 

We wouldn’t expect that. By accident we might find two people 

equally bright, but we don't expect it from a random sample of a 

random population. When there is a foster parent-child relation­

ship, there is a slight degree of influence here upon intelligence. 

The foster parent, if he's well educated, will try to train and 

raise the child in a way that will reflect his own abilities. But that 

relationship is not as close as that between parent and child, be­

cause not a genetic element enters into it. There will be the 

parent-child correlation here because the genetic element is there 

and also the motivation to educate the child to at least the level you



534

yourself have. Then when you check siblings, now you are looking 

for genetic tra its  in the same environment, and you find there is  a 

fa ir correlation when (R-650) they are reared together; the in­

telligence correlates to about the . 5 level. This is  what we find 

for physical tra its  also.

When we come once again tothe twin studies of the identical 

pairs, we find that we have the highest level of correlation, a . 9. 

This repeats and recites these previous studies. The numbers 

are always very close and very high.

And working back a little bit now, the reared-apart twin, 

identical twin, is slightly less matched with his other member of 

the pair, but still almost completely genetic.

And the 2-egg twin doesn't correlate his factors with the 

other member of the twins to a degree much higher than siblings 

rated together.

So we have —  I have reviewed here, and I accept this as 

my conclusion, the conclusion in this paper that genetic factors 

are predominant in the mental abilities field so far as we can 

measure. This repeats what I have said before and emphasizes 

what I have said before, that the genetic element —-

Q. Do you know of any modern authority that reaches the conclusion 

contrary to the conclusions you have just now reached, to the 

effect that heredity, rather than environment, is the controlling 

factor ?

A* Do I know of a modern authority - - - - ?

Q. Contrary to those you have read to the effect that genetics



(R-651) 535
is the controlling factor, rather than environment?

A. Well, I  have heard of people who would not accept this type of 

evidence.

Q,. Well, when X say "modern authority,111 mean a study. Do you 

know of any study?

A. Well, not with twins. I mean, we have people who disagree with 

these resu lts for reasons probably separate from the quality of 

the evidence. I understand that there are still people in Russia 

that would disagree with this; that's the Lysenko school of gene­

tics, which has no parallel in the civilized world.

Q. Has he ever been recognized as an authority in the field of 

genetics?

A. He has been recognized by Stalin.

Q. Has he ever been recognized by any reputable scientist outside

of Russia, as an authority in genetics?

A. He has been defended by Communist scientists, but, from attack,

but this is a field that I can't claim expert knowledge in. But I do

know of one individual in England defended him long ago, but this

was not a point of interest to me, and I ’m not sure of the name, 
is

Q. Lysenko/the so-called scientist who came to the conclusion, with­

out ever having studied at any of the universities and without ever 

having studied genetics to any great extent, that you could, through

environmental factors, change winter wheat to spring wheat?
(R-652)

Yes, he had something to do with this field, but I have no know ledge

of his qualifications except they weren't very many, and I don't 

know what his credentials are.



536

In this country I knov; of no authority in the field.

Well, to return to Lysenko, he never worked with twins.
Is

And In this country I know of no authority that/re c ognized in the 

field that re je c ts  this work, as such, though there are some people 

who would evaluate it as less  conclusive or less striking. There 

are such people. But I'm  not aware of who they are.

Q. I will ask you this: Are the findings you have just stated contrary 

to what is generally known as the equalitarian theory in some r e ­

spects; so that if a person is an equalitarian, he might be willing 

to accept dogma, rather than facts?

A. "Well, I don't quite know —  We xvould have to define equalitarian 

very carefully before I could answer that question.

Q. In other words, one that believes rigidly that all men are created 

equal? Would that define an equalitarian?

A. Well, this might be one possible definition. I would say I can't 

speak for what the equalitarian would believe, but I would say, if 

I have to answer that question, that I suspect that a  person who 

was dogmatic about some social or political or economic issues 

might not credit this type (R-653) of work with the importance 

that it deserves, but I can't say how or to what degree this credit 

would be withdrawn or not acknowledged; I can't answer that.

Q* Thank you very much, Doctor.

THE COURT: Is  this examination going to extend much 

longer?

MR. PITTMAN: It will extend beyond four-thirty.

THE COURT: Very well. I believe we will take an



adjournment at this point until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon the tria l was recessed until the following morning)

THURSDAY, MAY 21, 1984, AT 8:00 A.M . THE TRIAL WAS

RESUMED.

THE COURT: Very well. Let the witness take the stand.

MR. PITTMAN: We hope to get through in three additional 

hours with the testimony, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

(MR. PITTMAN CONTINUES EXAMINATION OF DR. KUTTNER:)

Q. Dr. Kuttner, you completed your testimony about the twin studies 

yesterday, did you not?

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. — Illustrating the influence of environment as opposed to the in­

fluence of genetics? (R-654)

A. Yes, s ir .

Q. All right.

Now, I will ask you, Doctor, as briefly as you can to 

address yourself to the subject of how races of men, of people, 

have been formed throughout the ages, what influences have been 

brought to bear upon the formation of races.

A. The various mechanisms by which races arose have been cata - 

logued, and I think the principal one of interest is the process of 

selection. We have the modern evolutionary theory which explains 

that groups of individuals who have certain traits incommon, a 

certain population that possesses common ancestry would naturally



533

have common tra its . And If these traits, attributes, be they 

physical or mental, are adjusted to the conditions under which 

that population may live, then we expect that that population would 

thrive. If the tra its  are not particularly advantageous or If they 

result in a maladaptation or maladjustment with the environment, 

then we would expect in due time that this population would be 

diminished; it would be less successful in fitting into the environ­

mental circum stances. Now, this is the main process.

Q,. May I ask you a scientific question:

Suppose a tribe of E skimoes should be dropped into the 

heart of A frica, what is likely to happen to those Eskim oes?

A, Well, - —

Q. —  Over a period of time. (R-655)

A. We would expect a certain amount of attrition to set in at once, 

because there are diseases in the tropical regions to which E sk i­

moes are likely to have low resistance.

Q* Where would they get their polar bears?

A. Their what?

Q* Where would they get their meat?

A. Well, they would adjust probably to the fact that the source of food 

has to change. This would be a lesser problem. They would 

merely have to adjust their taste. But the important things would 

be that their physiology, which is adjusted to a colder region, 

would not have any special advantage in the tropics; it might even 

be harmful, particularly their resistance to disease, their re s is ­

tance to heat. In case the temperature extremes rise , they are



539
likely to develop fevers, —

Q. Suppose you put a thousand Negroes in the A rctic region, from 

A frica, and just turn them loose, what would happen to them?

A. They are being dropped in a polar region as we find them in A frica?

Q. They would be transplanted to a polar region.

A. Well, without the equipment of civilization, they would perish.

Q* Then in simple language, can you say whether or not clim atic con­

ditions and supply of food and so forth have anything (R-656) to do 

with race formation?

A. I don’t quite understand this question, but I would like to return— . 

If you place a person in an alien environment and instruct him in 

the requirements of survival there —  that he must hunt polar bear 

- -  I think you would find your African population could develop 

skills and succeed in surviving to a certain extent by learning the 

tricks that are necessary to survive in that area. In the long run, 

however, - -  not in the short term  sense - -  but in the long run, the 

Negro would be at a  disadvantage in a polar region without the 

equipment of civilization. Some would probably survive, but a 

large number of Negroes would be weeded out, and the survivors 

would represent a new population, and this would be a population 

that possessed some genetic traits which would pass on to the next 

generation and —

Q* L et's  get to the point. Over the hundreds of thousands of years, 

has Nature fashioned and formed races?

A. Yes. Y es, by the process of selection.

Q. What difference, briefly, has there been in the influences of Nature



540

on those who were located in A frica — as between those located 

in A frica and those located in the more frigid areas of the north?

A. In other words, you are asking for a list of - - -

Q. Not a list; just some of them. (R-657)

A. Well, in the sweat glands there would be different, more efficient 

means of regulating body heat, would be necessary.

Q. In Africa., you mean?

A. The disposal of excess heat would be necessary, and the conserva­

tion of body heat would be necessary in the polar region. One way 

by which this could be seen to by Nature would be the body size. 

Large animals which are found in the northern regions are warm­

blooded animals because of the ratio of body surface to body vol­

ume Is le ss , thereby the heat radiation would be le ss . Other 

means by which adjustment can be made to climate would include 

the ability to regulate the loss of heat in the skin by controlling the 

circulation. Now, there have been studies on Laplanders, abori­

gines and others, and search has been made, and there have been 

some physiological differences, Another means may be the utili­

zation ——

Q. Are certain tra its  weeded out of the racia l groups?

A. Yes.

Q. - -  by reason of the clim ate, we'll say?

A. Yes, there are certain traits weeded out and certain traits concen­

trated in population. Favorable traits would be concentrated and 

favored.

Q. Now, are you fam iliar with the writings of D r. Carleton Goon--



541
A. Y es.

Q. - - o n  that subject? Or is that a subject that he deals with?
(R-658)
A. Well, he deals with many subjects, but I think —

Q. Are you fam iliar with his views on the effect of natural selection 

on the different races of mankind?

A. Well, his views are the common views in anthropology.

Q. W ill you state briefly or read a brief excerpt that vail illustrate 

what the view’s of D r. Coon are, and then I will ask you who he is.

A. D r. Coon, like other anthropologists, recognizes that we have v ar­

ious races , of various human types. These are types which are 

sufficiently different so that they must have been exposed to se lec­

tive forces for a very long period of time.

Q. Do you have an article or a chapter by him entitled "Race and 

Ecology in Man!i?

A. Y es, I do. I have a copy of this article.

Q. On Page 153 is there a brief statement by him on this subject that 

might be helpful in the record?

A. Well, he re fers  to the rate of change of different populations. Now, 

this is the statement. This, by the way, came from the Cold 

Spring Harbor Symposia on Quantitative Biology in the year i960, 

and he states:

"There can be little doubt that human evolution proceeded 

during the latter part of the Pleistocene at an accelerated pace, 

particularly among Caucasoids and Mongoloids of the Palaearctic 

region. One reason was the (R-659) changing ecological chal­

lenge which grew as culture accumulated, placing a continuous



542

premium on certain unique human G ultures."

He states that a second reason was the sm all size of breed­

ing population which allows genetic traits to be accumulated rapid­

ly or lost rapidly; and sm all populations are easy to wipe out if 

they don't possess favorable genes, and they are also sm all enough 

to be successful and to thrive in competition with other sm all 

groups if they possess favorable genes.

He states the same thing in another article, in another 

volume, much the same way, but briefly he means that the chal­

lenges thrown at different populations in different regions differ, 

and he then states, or implies, that a challenging environment 

selects more beneficial genes, because a challenging environment 

tends to be unfavorable and you have a premium placed upon native 

intelligence, and this if it 's  absent or relatively absent in a group 

means that group is exposed to the risk  of extinction, where if it 's  

present then that trait is likely to be concentrated or accumulated 

in the population.

So he contrasts perhaps Ice Age Europe with its many 

challenges to, say, the more comfortable regions of A frica during 

the glacial e ra  —  (R-660)

Q. Let’s get down to the issues here.

I ’ll ask you, f irs t , who is D r. Goon?

A. D r. Coon is one of our most distinguished anthropologists, perhaps 

the forem ost expert on European races, the author of many books. 

Q* Where is he now?

A. Well, the last I heard he was —



543

Q. —  Where was he when he wrote this book?

A. University of Pennsylvania. He was the curator of the museum 

and functioned there as the anthropologist.

Q. Is  he recognized as an authority throughout the world?

A. Y es, he is .

Q. Now, have you read his views regarding the evolutionary develop­

ment of the white aid colored races?

A. That book, --In  that current book which you have there he discuss­

ed the evolution of the various races , and he states that they under­

went a separate but parallel evolution, and that they crossed the 

threshholds from primitive type of man, what is  called homo e re c- 

tus, to homo sapiens, modern type of man, at different periods in 

our prehistory; that the Caucasian race marie this evolutionary 

step over a quarter of a million years ago, 300,000 years ago, 

based upon the estim ates of human type rem ains in Europe.

Q. By that —

A. - -  He states also, if I may finish, that the Negro made (R-661) 

this step thirty to forty thousand years ago, that there are no 

ancient Negro skeletons that are identified as modern Negroes in 

A frica before that time, though there has been a very intensive 

search.

So on these grounds he explains that there are separate 

lines of evolution leading to at least five races that he can distin­

guish.

And the mongoloid made this step, if I may include the 

third race , some time closer to the Caucasian than to the Negro.



But each race is proceeding at a different pace of evolution, 

that the threshhold was crossed, between a more primitive type 

of man and modern man, at different times in the past. This is the 

point of that book, if you want to read it.

Q. Do you have any short excerpts that illustrate your testimony?

Turn to page 658 and 664.

A. Well, I  have already cited his points, that the beginning of man 

was at least a half a million years ago, that we already had dis­

tinguishable geographic races, and that these races became sap­

iens, the modern type of man, at different periods of history. This 

is the quote on 658.

Q. Now, when you say "sap ien s," in the language of the cotton market 

or the riverbank or a street corner, is that —  what does that 

mean?

A. That means, "sapiens" means "thinking m an," which means mod­

ern {R-662} man. Of course, the thinking process was present 

before the homo sapiens; this is just a nomen term , part of the 

nomenclature of anthropology.

Q. He became what we recognize as a human being? Is  that right?

A. That's right.

Q. Now, according to what you said, Goon says that the Caucasians 

became that a quarter of a million years ago, and the Negro be­

came that around 40,000 years ago?

A. Yes.

Q* You agree with that?

A. I agree with this because it is the opinion of other respected

544



545

anthropologists. J i r  Arthur Keith has found a sharp separation 

between the primary races, and this separation is sharp enough 

to have required a  great antiquity. R . Ruggles Gates and a number 

of other people very prominent in their thinking in this field, lead­

e rs  in their thinking in this field, leading thinkers in these fields, 

likewise ascribe to this view, so that I think I would say that I 

accept it.

Q. Has any other anthropologist or any other authority accumulated 

as much evidence as D r. Goon accumulated for his book on the 

origin of the ra ces?

A. In this country, no. This is the life work of Professor Coon, and 

there is  in this country no one, I think, that (R-663) would rank 

with him in his field.

Q. Now, le t 's  leave for the moment the matter of race formation, and 

go to the question of race differences, and I will ask you this ques­

tion?

Are there any recognizable anatomical and physical differ­

ences between Negroes and whites that are significant for educa­

tional purposes? Now, we 're not talking about psychological tests, 

but anatomical and physical characteristics.

A. Between Negro and white that are significant for education?

Q. Yes.

A. Anatomical?

Q. Y es.

A. I can think of nothing that would be visible. The ability to hold a 

pencil and to focus the eyes on the page, I think, are the minimum



546

requirements.

Q. That is , if you stand them up side by side you don't see such d iffer­

ences. But when you make anatomical studies, microscopic stud­

ies, do you find those differences?

A. Well, no one has correlated microscopic structures with any that 

are anatomical in general with education. This is not a field that 

people are entering —

Q. You mean that the brain of the Negro and the brain of the white 

man are not different?

A. No, I didn't say that. I ’m speaking of visible gross (B-683) differ­

ences that are racia l. There is  nothing that one can point to that 

has any significance, to my knowledge, to proficiency in school 

subjects.

Now, if we are spe along of the brain, which is —  we are 

getting with another subject now. We can’t tell a brain size by 

mere inspection of an Individual. The thing has to be measured 

scientifically and sufficient sample has to be studied before con­

clusions can be drawn.

Q. Well, have you studied the brain, and are you a biochemist?

A. That is  correct.

Q. Have you made chemical studies?

A. There are no biochemical studies on the brain, Racial - - -

Q. What differences are there between the Negro and the white brain?

A. There are well known differences in size.

Q. Will you get into that? What are the differences?

A. Are you referring to the differences, or the differences, reported



547
differences In size, or other differences besides size?

Q. We are starting with the size. What are the differences in size 

between the Negro and the white brain?

A. Well, there have been numerous studies on this subject, and the 

general opinion, current opinion, that any survey would substan­

tiate is that there is about a ten percent difference in brain size, 

volume and in weight, between (R-S65) the people of Caucasian 

origin and people of African origin, Negro Africans. This would 

be eight percent or twelve percent —  would vary from study to 

study depending on method and sample size, but it would tend to 

average about ten percent.

Q. Is  it generally conceded among all scientists that the brain is the 

center of intelligence? The seat of intelligence?

A. That is  correct. Y es.

Q. And does brain size, then, have any relation to intelligence?

A. Well, we know from several different types of study that this is 

correct. We know that in the process of evolution there has been 

an increase in brain. I think there is a chart here that was pre­

pared; I don't know if we have to use it, but there is no doubt here 

that the progression upward from the great ape, the level of the 

great ape, t o ------

Q. Turn the chart around.

A. I don’t know how important it is to make reference to this chart, 

but we have here various classes of primitive human-like —  

various prehistoric fossil types of men and also the great apes. 

And what this chart shows is that there is an increase in the era -



548
nial capacity measured from the reconstruction of the skulls from 

estim ates, from the fragments that are found, and we see here 

that the further up we go toward modern man, the larger the brain 

presumably is . This is a sign of evolutionary progress. The 

more complex tasks (R-666) a person has to perform, the bigger 

the brain must be. Finally, we reach modern types of man, homo 

sapiens, and we find the largest capacity. Also we have a consid­

erable range because in here is thrown together several types of 

man, several races. Our Neanderthal man looks rather large 

here; this is only because he had a large skull, but some of the 

things that we notice from the skull of Neanderthal indicate that 

though his brain may have been large in some ways it was prim i­

tive; certain regions of the brain in Neanderthal were less develop­

ed, though the size might have been

Q. Now, what does the scale at the bottom indicate?

A. This is  capacity in cubic centim eters.

Q. Capacity in what?

A. This is the skull capacity, the volume.

Q. Well, is it in pounds?

A. I t 's  a  volume measure.

Q. Well, what's that "ccm "?

A. That's cubic centim eters.

Q. All right. And that "2 0 0 0 ,"  Is that 2000 cubic centim eters?

A. This I think would represent the extreme reported range of one or 

two individuals. The average homo sapiens —

Q. Now, the great ape has from 300 to 700?



549
A. Y es.

Q. And then you move on to the Neanderthal man, that has a (R-867) 

capacity of, say, from 1100 to 1500 cubic centim eters? And then 

the homo sapiens ranges from over a thousand to over 2000?

A. Y es.

Q. Go to the next chart, Explain what that represents.

A. This represents the volume of the cortex, the outer layer of the 

brain, which was here plotted against total volume in th_ brain. 

This is now in cubic m illim eters, and it 's  in term s of a log.

Q. A what?

A. Logarithm. This is a device to malm curved lines straight. But 

in any case, the progression here shows that the amount of cortex 

'that we have relative to the amount of brain that we have increases 

as we progress upward from a very primitive form of primate - 

like animal to monkey to ape to man. This indicates the import­

ance of the cortex, the outer layer of the brain, where we have 

the interconnection between the various nerve cells .

Q. "What is  the function of the outer layer, the cortex?

A. Well, the function is to integrate behavior, movement —  The 

nerve ce ll by itself can do nothing alone. It has to be connected 

with other nerve ce lls , and when you have these connections, they 

take place, send out to each other to a very considerable extent 

in the upper layer of the brain, the cortex, the gray matter, which 

is something that (R-668) we find increases throughout evolution, 

the relative amounts of it, and thereby this indicates the import­

ance of it for complex function, including thought.



550
Q. Now, this graph - - - I t  shows the growth as you go up in the evolu­

tionary sca le , Now, once you get to man, then there are varia­

tions, are there not, in the size of the brain and in the amount of 

cortex? Is  that right?

A. Y es. Now, in size, in particular, we know this. The cortex, 

there are some estim ates.

Q. All right. Go to the third chart there.

Explain that chart, please.

A. This chart represents the region of development of the brain.

This here is — -  (Indicating)

Q. — You are pointing at the f ir s t?

A. That's right. —  Tarsius.

This is  a  great ape - - -  (Indicating)

Q. Now, you are pointing to the middle one.

A. And this here is human.

Q. The firs t is the brain of what, now?

A. Tarsiu s. A primitive form of life which led to the monkey. I t 's  

a pre-monkey stage.

Q. Now, what does the dotted area represent In there, in the last two?

A. This area is really a region, in volume term s. The frontal lobe,
(R-669)
Q. What is  the function of the frontal lobe?

A. This is believed to be the area of association where we have our 

higher activities, higher mental functions.

Q* Is that where the thinking is done?

A. That is  one way of saying it yes.

Q* Is  that where we organize materials in a case like this?



551
A. Y es.

Q. Is  there any difference between the frontal lobe of the Caucasian 

and the frontal lobe of the Negro?

A. There has been some work on this and some reports Indicate that

we find sm aller frontal lobe volume in the Negro. This is the work

of an anatomist called Bean that was published a number of years
contains,

ago in a journal. I don't know, remember, what it actually/in 

term s of numbers, but I have these citations here but he r e ­

ported frontal lobe area ——

Q. Do you have Bean's study?

A. Y es.

Q. You said there is a difference in brain weight between Negro brain 

and Caucasian brain, but you didn't say which one is bigger. Will 

you state for the record which one is bigger.

A. Which?

Q. Which is larger.

A. The Caucasian brain on the average is larger than the Negro brain. 

Q. Now, do you have studies on that particular point?

A. Y es. I have here, I think, the most recent review of this (R-670) 

subject and —

Q. Do you have the one by Hambly?

A. This is  the one I have here. This is the one published in 1947 in 

the Chicago Natural History Museum publication called FIE LDIANA 

ANTHROPOLOGY. Hambly is  the Curator, African Ethnology, 

there.

This is  the most recent and comprehensive review of racia l brain



552
volumes or brain weights.

Q. What does It show, briefly?

A, This chart shows his last table, and he lists  here measured capac­

ity for different peoples.

Q. Will you please start at the top and read that chart for the record?

THE COURT: I suggest you stand on the side.

A. The top line here lists  Europeans, ancient and modern. This is 

a collection of skulls.

Q. Let me ask you if that includes Caucasian?

A. That is  Caucasian.

Q. Continue to interpret that chart.

A. And he lists  after it the measured capacity of these European 

skulls, and he lists  the volume he finds as 1488 centim eters.

Q. Is  that the largest brain listed by Hambly in his study?

A. It is the largest average. This is  a collection of data; not (R-671) 

a single brain. This is a collection of numerous skulls; not a 

single one. The average for the European is the largest.

Q. All right, continue.

A. Below we have the Old English skull. These a r e ------

Q. Please read that chart.

A. "Old E n g lish ." The volume here is '1 4 7 2 ."

Q. What was the volume of the first one?

A. "1488. " The difference Is not significant, I don't believe.

We then come to "Miscellaneous Mongoloids." This is a

grouping of several Mongoloid type people, and again we find a 

very sizeable cranial capacity. The actual number Is 1465. One



cubic
thousand four hundred sixty five/centim eters.

53

Below we have additional Mongoloids, the American Indian 

and Eskimo, and, likewise, their volume is sizeable, "1460 cubic 

centim eters.

We come to a specific population, Polynesians, and the 

volume is  large, 1451.

"We come to F ijian s and Loyalty Islanders, 1439.

We come to the African Negroes, 1346.

Q. Now, what is  the difference between the Negro and the Caucasian?

A. Well, not bothering to subtract, I would say about ten percent.

Q. Proceed.

A. Well, below we have Melanesians, and the Hindu and Tamil and—
(R-672)

but we get down to the bottom and w e ------

Q. Well, le t’s read them all, because that doesn't sound good in 

the record. You are now with the African Negro, 1346. Go on 

down from that.

A. The Melanesians. These are dark people living in New Guinea.

We have a volume of 1345.

The Hindu and Tam il. These are populations of subconti­

nents of India; they measure 1335.

Now, we have additional Melanesians, and this population 

was found to be 1323 cc.

And Australian aborigines, 1294; and Tasmanians, 1256 cc.

Q. All right, you can take the stand again.

MR. PITTMAN: I tender for identity and for the record a 

copy of the study by Harnbly from which that chart was made.



554

THE GOTJRT: Let it be received in evidence and marked 

as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Internvenor !s Exhibit No. 17}

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. Is  that representative of the studies, the number of studies, that 

have been made showing the relationship between the sizes of the 

brains of different peoples ?

A. Y es, s ir .

Q. Are you fam iliar with the writings of a man by the name of Boaz?

A. Y es, I read one of the works of Boaz. (R-673)

Q. I will ask you if Boaz Is the man, the anthropologist, who was 

cited and most relied on in the book called THE AMERICAN 

DILEMMA by Myrdal, which was cited as an authority in Brown 

versus Board of Education?

A. In Myrdal1 s book there are a number of different authorities and 

different contributors. Boaz was probably depended on rather 

heavily for his study for information regarding physical tra its .

Q. Now, I read to you from a book written by Boaz in 1911 entitled 

THE MIND OF PRIMITIVE MAN. About the brain. When I have 

finished, I will ask you some further questions about it. This is 

on, beginning on, page 24 of THE MIND OF PRIMITIVE MAN:

"We will now turn to the important subject of the size of 

the brain, which seems to be the one anatomical feature which 

bears directly upon the question at issue. It seems plausible that 

the greater the central nervous system, the higher the faculty of



555

the race and the greater its aptitude to mental achievements. Let 

us review the known facts. Two methods are open for ascertaining 

the size of the central nervous system: the determination of the 

weight of the brain, and that of the capacity of the cranial cavity. 

The fir s t  of these methods is the one which promises the most 

accurate resu lts. Naturally the number of Europeans whose b rain 

weights have been taken is much larger than that of individuals of 

other races . (PL-574) There are, however, sufficient data avail­

able to establish beyond a doubt the fact that the brain weight of the 

whites is larger than that of the most other races, particularly 

larger than that of the Negro. That of the white man is about 1360 

gram s. The investigations of the cranial capacities are quite in 

accord with these resu lts. According to Topinard the capacity of 

the skull of males in the Niolithic period in Europe is about 1560 

c . c . 's .  That of the modern European is the same. Of the Mongo­

loid, 1510 c . c . 's . Of the African Negro, 1405 c. c. fs. And the 

Negroes of the Pacific Ocean, 1460 c. c . 's . Here we have there­

fore a decided difference in favor of the white race . In interpret­

ing these facts, we must ask, Does the increase in the size of the 

brain prove an increase in faculties? This would seem highly 

probable, and facts may be adduced which speak in favor of this 

assumption. F ir s t  among these is the relatively large size of the 

brain among the higher animals, and the still larger size in man. 

Furtherm ore, Manouvrier has measured the capacity of the skulls 

of 35 eminent men. He found that they averaged 1666 c .c .  's , as 

compared to 1560 c .c .  ’s general average, which was derived from



110 individuals. On the other hand, he found that the cranial 

capacity of 45 murderers was 1580 c .c .  *s, also superior to the 

general average. The (R-675) same result has been obtained 

through weighing the brains of eminent men. The brains of 34 of 

these showed an average increase of 93 grams over the average 

brain weight of 1357 men. Another fact which may be adduced in 

favor of the theory that greater brains are accompanied by higher 

faculties is that the heads of the best English students are larger 

than those of the average c lass of student."

And then, further, I read this one thing:

"The increase of the size of the brain in the higher animals 

and the lack of development in rnicrocephalic individuals are fun­

damental facts which make it more than probable that increased 

size of the brain causes increased faculties, although the relation 

is  not quite as immediate as is often assumed. "

Now, do you agree with that statement made by Boaz in

1911?

A. Y es. I ’m not fam iliar with the reference to the brain weight of the 

m urderers, however.

Q. What's that?

A. He has a reference there on the brain volume or brain weight of a 

group of murderers. Now, the other portions of Boaz’s statement 

have been substantiated; there is general agreement; but I have no 

idea of anybody else studying the brain weight of murderers except 

that one (R-676) reference there.

Q. I see. All right. You Have no knowledge of the brain weight of

556



557
m urderers as compared with others?

A. No knowledge.

Q. Now, do you have any recent studies, more recent than 1911, that 

prove what Boaz said then was the truth?

A. Well, other than the Hambly study, here is —

Q. What about P ea rl?

A. Other than the Hambly study there are several studies, and one is 

by P earl, Raymond P earl, who worked in the biology department

0f ------

Q. What's the date of that study?

A. 1934. He worked in the biology department of the School of Hygiene 

and Public Health, John Hopkins University.

Q. Since D r. George testified about that and we will read his te s t i­

mony, I won't ask you to go into detail, but I would like for you to 

tell who P earl is and identify that for the record.

A. I identified him as a member of the faculty of John Hopkins Univer­

sity, and —

Q. Is  he an authority in the field?

A. Y es.

Q. MR, PITTMAN: May I identify that for the record, Your

Honor, and tender it for admission, the study of Raymond P earl?  
(R-677)

THE COURT: Let it be received.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 18) 

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to 

be inspected)

Q. Now, do you have another study, by Gordon, "Amentia in the E ast



558

African" ?

A. Y es, I have a copy. This is  H. L . Gordon, M. D ., a publication in 

in EUGENICS REVIEW, 1934.

Q. Does his finding accord with those of Hambly and P earl and those 

recorded by Boaz in 1911?

A. Well, Gordon studied the weight of the African, various types of 

African Negro, measured the brain capacity. He then compared 

this capacity to reported values for Europeans.

This chart summarises the numerical values he obtained.
cubic

The European white, calculated by B erry , was 1481/centim eters, 

and the E ast African of various types — their cranial capacity he 

found to be 1316, a difference of 165 cubic centim eters, and the 

percentage difference is 11 percent.

q. n . i ?

A. This number is within the range usually found in comparative 

studies of volume or weight between white and Negro.

Q. Now, on yesterday were you present when I read an excerpt from 

Myrdal's book, saying to the effect that the d iffe r e n t  between the 

weight of the white brain and the Negro brain was only slight?

A. Y es, s ir . (R-678)

Q. I will ask you if that percentage shown by the studies of Gordon is 

a slight difference or a  materially substantial difference ?

A. It is  a  substantial difference.

MR, PITTMAN: We now tender for identification into the

record an article by H. L. Gordon entitled "Amentia in the E ast 

A frican ," published in the EUGENICS REVIEW.



559

THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 19)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. Are you fam iliar with a work by a D r. Reginald Ruggles Gates 

entitled "Human G enetics"?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was Gates?

A. Professor Gates was a very distinguished English biologist and 

geneticist. His period of research  covered many decades; he was 

on many expeditions, made many studies on human populations, 

and was perhaps one of the foremost authorities in the world, we 'll 

say, within the past 10 or 20, in human genetics.

Q. Do you have a photocopy before you of a portion of his work entitled 

"Human Genetics, " Volume 2?

A. Y es.

Q. Page 1138 - -  You may have a copy -*■ -

A. I have a copy of it.

Q. Would you read what he has to say on that subject?

A. On the subject of brain - -  Well, he cites P earl and some (R-679) 

other studies, but his summary Is as follows, on page 1138:

" . . .  it seem s difficult to avoid the conclusion that the brain 

of Negroes in A m erica and of E ast Africans is some 10 percent 

less  than in Europeans. This conclusion is unpalatable to those 

who affect to think that all races are equal in an evolutionary sense, 

but mere denial of the facts will no longer meet the case. "



560

Q. Is  that work In two volumes by Reginald Ruggles Gates on "Human 

Genetics" regarded as an authority in the field of genetics?

A. Well, I would say that it is very highly regarded.

Q. Is  it used?

A. Y es. It was published in 1943 and not updated, but I would say 

copies of it are in use end much In demand.

MR. PITTMAN: We offer "Human Genetics" by D r. Gates 

for identification into the record.

THE COURT: Let it be received In evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 20)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be Inspected,)

Q. Are you fam iliar with the writings of Professor Robert Bean? On 

the subject of the negro brain.

A. Y es.

Q. Do you have a copy of any of his writings?

A. I don't have a copy of D r. Bean's work, no, but I have a small 

summary of it here. I made reference to It earlier, I believe.

Q. If you don't have a copy for the record, do you have before (R-6805 

you any summary from it or anything copied from it that would be 

useful to illustrate?

A. Y es. I have here some of the results.

Q. Will you state them for the record, if you agree with them?

A. This article was entitled "Some Racial Peculiarities of the Negro

Brain , and appeared in the AMERICAN JOURNAL OF ANATOMY 

Volume 5, in 1906. This was a study of the American white and



561

the American Negro, and Bean, as In other studies since cited, 

showed that there was a considerable weight difference between 

these races , so far as brain was concerned.

He also noted some differences in the corpus callosum. 

This is the tract which connects hemispheres. There was some 

difference in the shape. And from this, he concluded that there 

might have been functional differences in the association centers 

of the Negro brain.

Q. What is the date of that work?

A. 1906.

Q. Are the conclusions reached by him still valid, In your opinion?

A. I think they have been confirmed a number of tim es. There are

some people who do not accept this work. There are some people

who have confirmed it, and there are some people who have not

found the same differences but have found other differences. I

know that Bean reported the frontal lobe sm aller. I mentioned

that e a rlie r , I believe. Others have not found this to be true, and

again other experts have (R-681) confirmed it. There is some

dispute on this. However, even in the case where confirmation

of this one point was not made, other differences were found. The

weight of the frontal lobe may not have been found different by
found

other workers, but they may have/the dimensions to be different, 

or the height of the frontal lobe, or estim ates of its development; 

but it 's  been confirmed in essence a number of tim es.

Q. Are you fam iliar with the studies conducted by D r. Vint?
A, Yes, I am.



562
Q. Do you have a copy of any study made by him?

A. D r. Vint published a report in the JOURNAL OF ANATOMY en­

titled "The Brain  of the Kenya N ative." That was published in 

1934.

Q. Are you in agreement with his findings?

A. Well, he had several findings.

Q. That is , his conclusions from the findings.

A. Y es.

Q. Did he - -  Were his findings with respect to brain morphology sub­

stantially the same as those made previously by others, anthro­

pologists and — ?

A. By "morphology'1 you mean weight?

Q. Y es.

A. His weights were again ten percent different. He found some 

differences in grooving of the brain.

Q. Will you read his summary which appears on page 222 of (R-632) 

his article?

A. (Reading) "1, The average weight of the brain of the Kenya native 

is 10 .6  per cent or 152 gm. less than the average weight given for 

the brain of the European.

"2 . No disproportion was found in the percentage weights 

of the fore-brain  and the mid- and hind-brain in the native.

"3. A lunate sulcus was present in 70 percent of the 

brains examined, and there was a tendency to exposure of the 

insula.

» 4  ii



563

Q. T e ll us what the Insula Is?

A, I t 's  the lower portion of the brain. It would be hard to demon­

strate, but this is not a major point. I think the next thing he 

comes to, with reference back to Bean, I think is important;

"4 . The reduction in size of the native brain, as compared 

with the European, seem s to be accounted for mainly by a failure 

in development in height."

That means that the native brain lacked development in 

the upward dimension, the frontal part. Then with reference back 

to Item 2, we found the weight difference in the fore-brain. This 

did not confirm Bean, but this other item, the failure of develop­

ment of the upper dimension, the height dimension of the frontal

lobe and frontal section of the brain, shows a difference again.
CR-683)
Q. Have you read the 4th item?

A. That was the 4th item, the height of the frontal region of the brain. 

Then the 5th item:

"5. The cortex of the native brain was found to be narrow­

er than that of the European. This is true of all the individual 

laminae in the areas examined, except in the lamina zonalis, and 

in laminae 5 and 6 of the visuo-sensory area. "

Q. What is  the laminae of the brain?

A. Well, the cortex, the newer part of the cortex — - by "newer part"

I mean the part that developed most recently in the animal kingdom 

—  called the isocortex —  this is the main covering of the brain. 

This is  layered; there are six layers, and the importance of this 

is demonstrated by the fact that the higher up we go, the more



564

developed these layers are, the more prominent they are, and the 

difference that Vint reports, he reports differences between var­

ious groupings of these layers. I'm  not prepared to say anything 

about the importance of these different layers.

Q. That will be covered by some other evidence.

A. I do say in term s of numbers —  and he doesn't cite numbers — 

there was a 15 percent difference.

Q. You say there is 15 percent difference in thickness?

A. Y es. He found the Negro brain was 15 percent thinner so far as 

the cortex was concerned, and this cortex was composed of six- 

layers. CR-684)

Q. Go ahead with the next one.

A. "6 . The pyranidal cells  of the supragranular cortex, and

the Betz ce lls  of the motor area, are sm aller in the native brain 

than in the European.

"7. Cell counts per unit area are the same in the African 

and European b ra in s ."

Q. Now, when he says "ce ll counts per unit a r e a ," that means per 

square inch of area?

A. Well, when he sections the brain, he has a two-dimensional prepa­

ration. He can't count in depth; he can only count in surface.

But this re fers  to the total volume. He would refer to a volume 

instead of an area. And what he is saying then is there are the 

same number of ce lls  per unit volume in the region studied in the 

African and in the European.

Q. But the volume of the white is greater than the volume of the Negro



585
brain?

A. Y es. And the cortical layers, which are the important layers, are 

also different.

MR. PITTMAN: V/e tender that article by D r. Vint for 

identification in the record.

THE COURT: Let it be received.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 21)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to 

be inspected.)

Q. Are you fam iliar with an article on a sim ilar or related subject by 

D r. Jam es H. Sequeira, which was published in THE BRITISH 

MEDICAL JOURNAL, entitled "The Brain of the E ast (R-685) 

African native”? 1932, I believe, was the date of that article.

A. Y es, I have a copy.

Q. Very quickly, if you will, read that table showing brain weights 

discovered by him.

A. Well, the table begins with Caucasian, and it 's  placed at 1380

gram s; Mongoloid placed at 1 ,300; E ast African at 1,280; Negroid 

at 1 ,240; the Australoid at 1 ,180.

Now, this table is obviously derived from several sources.

I don't know where he gets it.

Q. I will ask you if that table shows substantially a ten percent 

difference ?

A. Y es.

Q. — In brain size.

A. It does.



506

Q. Now, I will ask you to look at his conclusion in the next column, 

the next to the last paragraph. Have you read those?

A. Y es, I have.

Q. Would you agree with It?

A. You want me to read it and then —

Q. Y es. Read It. Read it aloud.

A. (Reading) "Educational authorities dealing with backward native 

races cannot afford to neglect the teachings of anthropology and 

psychology. If it is proved that the physical basis of 'mind' in the 

E ast African differs from that of the European, it seems quite 

possible that efforts (R-686) to educate these backward races on 

European lines will prove ineffective and possibly disastrous. It 

has long been recognized among highly civilized races that the 

educational methods applied to the normal child cannot be applied 

to the backward mid d efective."

Q. Do you agree with that, from all the studies you are fam iliar with?

A. I  would say that there is a very considerable element of truth in 

this. There are many, many issues involved in this paragraph, 

however, home of them are —

Q* Well, we are trying them here today.

A. Some of them are not scientific. Some of them relate to education­

al theories. What this man is saying is that based on the work of 

Vint, there are differences in cortical layers. These cortical 

layers he relates to ability. Now, some of this is a sequence or

construction of steps and sequences which is not always easy to 

follow. There is  an area of knowledge here that is not sufficiently



567

developed to come to a one hundred percent conclusion. I would 

agree with the general tone, but I don't say that the work it re fers  

to is sufficient by itself to propose new theories of education or to 

bolster a  single theory of education and make it the final dogma 

of the day. But in general I agree with this conclusion.

I may point out one tiling, that this is an English M .D.
(R-687)

writing about another English M. D . and having in mind perhaps 

a different educational system, and dealing now with African edu­

cation and English education. These are not quite the same. And 

I don't know what type of education they were giving in E ast A frica.

Q. He was more fam iliar with the traditions in A frica than you are, 

was he not?

A. That is correct.

Q. He had been there and made the study, had he not?

A. That is right.

Q_ And he came to the conclusion that you couldn’t educate them 

together?

A. This is the opinion of this man. This did come from Africa, yes.

Q. Do you have any reason to question it?

A. I don’t question it, but I find that I don't n e ce ssa ry ------I don't

take issue with him if he disagrees with the educational system in 

Kenya. I wonder, however, what else one brings to this subject 

before one comes to a conclusion. Now, he brings Vint's work in. 

This by itself would seem sufficient to me to —

Q. I didn't ask you that. Isn 't tills in accord with general authorities

in the field?



MR. B E L L : Your Honor, I don't know that this is 

necessary. This is an expert witness; I don't think counsel

should put words in his mouth. Let him state the true facts
(R-888)

as he understands them. I object to him leading the witness.

THE COURT: Y es. Don't lead the witness.

MR, PITTMAN: Well, I  tender this for the record and 

into evidence as an authoritative statement based upon the studies 

made by others.

MR. B E L L : I don't know that he said it is . I couldn’t 

understand what his explanation of it was.

MR. PITTMAN: Well, I withdraw the testimony of this 

witness, then, with respect to it.

WITNESS: Did I make myself clear when I said that I 

cannot agree with an M, D. discussing the educational situation of 

A frica if he is  deciding that upon one anthropological study or 

histological study? This is tailing too little and making too much. 

This is my opinion. But in the larger context with other evidence, 

then perhaps it might be perm issible to say something on this 

subject.

Q. Then, Doctor, we go to this. I see your point. Your point is that 

based upon one study you wouldn't draw such a conclusion?

A. No.

Q. AJ1 right. Based upon all the studies that have been made as to 

brain size and brain structure, what is your conclusion with r e ­

spect to the educability of the Negro as compared with the Cauca­

sian?

568



A. I would say that based upon these differences, we would find these 

physical tra its , these anatomical traits, reflected (R-689) in in­

tellectual function, which in turn would be reflected in ability to 

learn, which Is, of course, the process we are encouraging in 

school. This would be the sequence as X see it.

Q. All right.

MR. PITTMAN: We tender this for the record and into 

evidence.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 22)

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to

be inspected.)

Q. Were you present yesterday when an excerpt was read from the 

record in the Brown case from the evidence of D r. Redfield from 

the University of Chicago, which was to the general effect that no 

differences have been found, no substantial differences have ever 

been found in the educability or the mental capacity between the 

Negroes and the whites, and that if such differences should ever 

be found they would not prove to be of consequence ? Were you 

here?

A. I seem to remember that, yes. And I think I have read it before.

Q. Are you fam iliar with the writings of D r. Lewis S. D. Leakey, 

who deals with that subject in a work written in 1951, entitled !'The 

Progress and Evolution of Man in A frica"?

A. Y es, I have read that book. I am fam iliar with that work.

Ch Will you read, or do you consider that book authoritative?

569



570

A. D r. Leakey Is one of a  group of three workers in South A frica
(R-690)

of International reputation, and I would regard him as a leading 

authority, yes, and I regard all his work as being distinguished in 

quality.

Q* What do you have before you of his writings on the subject testified 

to by Redfield in the Brown case ?

A. Leakey made several very interesting statements, but the one here 

of import is as follows:

"As a social anthropologist, I naturally accept and even 

stress  the fact that there are major differences, both mental and 

psychological, which separate the different races  of mankind. 

Indeed, I would be inclined to suggest that however great may be 

the physical differences between such races as the European and 

the Negro, the mental and psychological differences are still 

g re a te r ."

That's the close of that quotation.

Q. Are you in agreement woth that statement?

A. Y es. This would be in harmony with everything I have said.

MR. PITTMAN: You may question him.

THE COURT: Any questions by the defendants?

Any cro ss examination?

MR. B E L L : No, Your Honor. We move to strike the 

testimony on the basis it is irrelevant, and we further move the 

Court to strike it on the basis of its weight as evidence in this 

case.

THE COURT: F o r the reasons heretofore stated, I will



overrule the motion.

(Witness excused) (Pi-691)

MR. PITTMAN; D r. George of the University of North 

Carolina testified in two cases previously. He is a biologist. At 

this time his wife is ill and in the hospital, yet he was coming any­

way; but then his daughter was to remain with his wife and his son- 

in-law became ill and was put in the hospital; and he could not 

come.

But D r. Hoy is  here from the University of South Carolina. 

He has taught biology there a number of years. He has heard and 

has read the testimony of D r. George, and we would like, in the 

economy of time rather than to question D r. Hoy independently, to 

have him take the stand and for us to read to him the questions 

asked D r. George, and let him read the answers of D r. George.

In that way, we can cut down and shorten the time. That has been 

done before.

MR. B E L L ; Counsel for plaintiffs are quite fam iliar with 

D r. George's testimony, both in the Stell case and as it appeared 

in several other cases. Subject to the same objection, we have no 

objection to permitting that testimony to be read into evidence.

And with the further idea of economy of time, we would be quite 

willing to make stipulation that the expertise of D r. Hoy, which I 

would not question, would support the statement of D r. George, 

without putting him on the stand and having him read all of this in 

the record.

THE COURT; Very well. I think that would be good pro­



CR-692) 572

cedure, if It is agreeable to you. As I understand It now, you 

make the statement you make the same objection you made to all 

the other, but other than that, that is your only ground of objec - 

tion?

MR. B E L L : Y es, Your Honor. That Is correct.

THE GOURT: Very well, I will let that be received In 

evidence, and, of course, if you desire to question D r. Hoy------?

MR. PITTMAN; I believe, If Your Honor please, if we 

could present this in the record in question and answer form ,

Your Honor would probably find that type of presentation more 

effective, but that is a matter for your Honor to decide, whether 

or not we shall hand it to you to read or whether or not it will be 

presented.

THE COURT; In order to save time, I  will read It, rather 

than have it read before me now. Reading it myself, I  get better 

results than hearing it read. That is the testimony of D r. George?

MR. PITTMAN: Yes, s ir .

THE GOURT: Very well.

MR. PITTMAN: And we would like also to introduce —  

Well, D r. George states his qualifications in this, so we tender 

for the record and in evidence the testimony of D r. George as 

marked on Page 191, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 

203, 204, 205, 206, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216 of the Transcript 

of Proceedings in the United (R-693) States D istrict Court for the 

Southern D istrict of Georgia, Savannah Division, which constitutes 

the relevant portions of the testimony of D r. George of the Univer­



573
sity of North Carolina.

THE COURT: Very well, let that be received in evidence 

and marked as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 23) 

(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to 

be inspected.)

MR. PITTMAN: May we have about a five minute re c e ss?  

We now have shortened the record, and we only have one more 

witness.

THE COURT: Very well, take about a ten minute recess . 

(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)