Plaintiffs' Answers to Interrogatories Concerning Expert Witnesses (Redacted)
Public Court Documents
July 16, 1986
12 pages
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Scott v Winston Salem Board of Education Appendix, 1970. d9399cce-c39a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/c4429916-b5f2-4058-906e-b5709c831c31/scott-v-winston-salem-board-of-education-appendix. Accessed May 22, 2025.
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Volume II
In The
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
Nos. 15,185, 15,186, 15,187, 15,188
CATHERINE SCOTT, et al. ,
Appellants,
v.
WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY
BOARD OF EDUCATION, et al.,
Appellees.
Appeal From The United States District Court For The
Middle District Of North Carolina
APPENDIX
J. LeVONNE CHAMBERS
ADAM STEIN
CHAMBERS, STEIN, FERGUSON & LANNING
216 West Tenth Street
Charlotte, North Carolina 28202
CONRAD 0. PEARSON
203-1/2 East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina 27702
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Appellants
INDEX
Volume I
Page
Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint .................................... 3
Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education ............ :....................... 18
Further Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/
Forysth County Board of Education ............................. 23
Answer of Defendant, Board of County Commissioners
of Forsyth County ................................................ 25
Motion to Dismiss of Defendant, Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County ................................. 28
Memorandum in Support of Defendant's Motion to
Dismiss ........................................................ 29
Answer of Defendants North Carolina State Board of
Education and Dr. A. Craig Phillips ........................... 30
Motions to Dismiss and For Summary Judgment of
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. Charles F. Carroll .................................... 34
Memorandum Brief in Support of Motions ........................ 41
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendants' Motion to
Dismiss and Motions for Summary Judgment ...................... 46
Memorandum ..................................................... 34
Order, Filed June 9, 1969 ..................................... 38
Order, Filed August 5, 1969 ................................... 82
Plaintiffs' Motion for Preliminary Injunction ................ 65
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response to Motion ................................... 67
Memorandum in Support of Response ............................. 69
i
Page
Defendants State Board of Education and the
Superintendent of Public Instruction's Response to Motion ...............
Interim Order, Filed January 12, 1970
Order, Filed January 19, 1970
Motion For Summary Judgment of Defendant Board of
County Commissioners of Forsyth County
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County's Motion For
Summary Judgment ..............
Memorandum ................
Memorandum and Order, Filed February 17, 1970
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal
Memorandum ...............
Plaintiffs Objections to Defendants' Plan of
Desegregation .....................
Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time
For Docketing Case on Appeal
70
72
75
77
78
81
83
94
95
97
101
Order, Filed March 26, 1970
Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time
To Docket Record on Appeal
103
104
Memorandum and Order, Filed June 25, 1970
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal
Plaintiffs' Motion For Further Extension of Time
to Docket Record on Appeal .........
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Report and Motion ...........
Order, Filed July 17, 1970
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Notice of Appeal
107
205
206
209
231
234
ii
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Notice of Motion .............................. 236
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Report and Motion ............................. 237
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant's Report and Motion ....... 255
Plaintiffs' Motion to Add Additional Parties-
Defendant ..................................................... 259
Preliminary Response of Defendant Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County .............................. 261
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Reply to Motion to
Add Additional Parties-Defendant ............................. 262
Order, Filed August 17, 1970 ................................. 267
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Notice of Appeal ................................. 269
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal ................................. 271
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Motion to Strike Out
Order Adding Additional Parties-Defendant .................... 272
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response and Motion ................................. 275
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Brief in Support of Response and Motion ............ 277
Plaintiffs' Reply to Motions of the Defendants Board
of County Commissioners of Forsyth County, North Carolina
State Board of Education and Dr. A. Craig Phillips,
State Superintendent of Public Instruction .................. 285
Order, Filed September 15, 1970 .............................. 293
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal .................................... 296
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal .................................... 297
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education and
Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Notice of Appeal ...................... 298
Page
iii
Page
Interrogatories oi Plaintiifs to Defendant Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Hoard of Education and Defendant's Answers
Interrogator ion oi Hoard (if County Commi
Plaintiffs and Plaintiffs' Answers
loners to
Stipulation ......................
Plaintiffs' Interrogatories to Defendant and
Defendant's Answers .......
299
328
336
338
Exhibits
School Board Members By Race, 1959-1969 and 1969-1970
School Board Policy With Respect to Non-Discrimination
Summary of Special Programs in the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County School System .....................
Special Programs in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County School System .....................
School Building Capacity .................. ..
Notice of Assignment Policy and Application for Transfer
School Board Regulation No. Ulll .................
School Board Policy No. 1/L15 .................................
School Board Policy No. i|123 ............
Adminisrrative Regulation No. Ul23 .............
McGuffey's Short Range Plan ..................
Trial Transcript
Hearing of January 9, 1970 ................
Volume II
Hearing of January 9, 1970 continued .................
Volume III
35U
355
356
368
373
378
382
38U
386
387
388
U25
676
1301
1724.7
Hearing of April 16, 1970
Hearing of July 17, 1970 .
Hearing of August 11, 1970
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, will you come back to the
stand, please sir?
MR. V/OMBLE: Your Honor, if I may, I would like
to defer the continuation of this temporarily to back up
and put into evidence statistical data on the composition
of each school as of now. I think it will help the Court
in understanding, as we go from one district to another,
more clearly what we have.
THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,
MARVIN M. WARD
having previously been sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you a document
that has been identified as Defendants’ Exhibit 26 and ask
you if you would please state what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 26
for identification.)
A This is a copy of information which we obtained
in December and to show the population make-up of each
school in the school district.
THE COURT: December of what year, Mr. Ward?
THE WITNESS: Of 1969.
*
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N . C.
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, this was submitted to whom?
A This was a report submitted to HEW. I believe
we submitted it on or about December the 19th, 1969 to HEW,
and the information was obtained during the week prior to
that.
U You say the information was obtained during the
week prior to that?
A Yes.
Q Do you keep records in the school system official
records, showing the race of the pupils in the system?
A No, we do not.
G In order to compile a list such as this, that you
have submitted to HEW, how do you get your information?
A We asked the principals to determine as accurately
as they can from the number of students enrolled at that
particular' time the make-up, the racial make-up of the
student body.
C Now, this particular one gives information both
as to pupils and faculty, does it?
A That’s correct.
G School by school?
A Yes.
G And the racial break-down on the report isanong
what races?
A It shows Indian, Negro, Oriental, Spanish and
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W h i t e .
Q And the front sheet, the cover sheet, of this is
a summary sheet, is that right?
A A summary sheet, yes.
MR. WOMBLE: We offer this into evidence.
THE COURT: Do you have a copy before you, Mr.
Stein?
MR. STEIN: I do, Your Honor; no objection.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence is Defendants' Exhibit 26, and I'd
like to see that, Mr Idol.
(The document above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bit No. 26 for identification, was
received in evidence.)
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, briefly, Mr. Ward, and
referring to Defendants' Exhibit 24 which is the map showing
the elementary schools in the outlying areas of the county—
well, in fact all of the schools except those in the center
of the county, and taking them in the same order as you did
yesterday, could you briefly state by reference to this
report and by pointing to each school, the racial composi
tion of the school as far as pupils go as of the time of
this report?
A Old Richmond, Negro 41, White 309; Vienna, Negro—
Q You might give the total of each.
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A 12, White 423 - total 435.
Let the Judge see the location of the school and
the composition.
THE COURT: You were speaking of Vienna?
THE WITNESS: Vienna Elementary.
THE COURT: Now, which one are you fixing to go to'*
THE WITNESS: Lewisville Elementary.
THE COURT: Now, wait, let me understand this.
Are the elementary in one place?
THE WITNESS: They’re on the first two pages.
THE COURT: All right. I have it.
A On the first page Lewisville Elementary is shown.
The makeup - Negro 29, White 602 - total 631. On the same
page, Clemmons Elementary.
HR. iVOMBLE: Does the Court have an opportunity
here to relate the information he is giving to the
location in the county, where the school is?
THE COURT: Are you pointing to it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I’m pointing to them on each
occasion.
THE COURT: All right.
A Clemmons Elementary, Negro 14, Oriental 1, White
972 - a total of 987. And then Griffith, just south of the
city, the makeup is 1,020 white. On the second page, in
the southeastern corner, Union Cross, Negro 3, White 659 -
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a total of 662. And Sedge Garden, just north of Union
Cross, Indian 4, Negro 7, White 935 - a total of 946.
THE COURT: Now, you have district lines there
for each one of them, do you not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the district lines that we
pointed out yesterday on the map were these.
THE COURT: Under your system, we will say that
one you just spoke about, do they have the right to
transfer out of there and if so, have some students
transferred?
THE WITNESS: They have the right to transfer in
or out of this district, and I am not sure about the
particular district of Sedge Garden, but they do have
the right and in many instances have transferred in and
out.
MR. WOMBLE: We'll talk about transfers later.
A Kernersville Elementary, it's on the first page
there.
THE COURT: All right.
A Indian 5, Negro 36, White 1,111 - total 1,152.
On the second page, Walkertown Elementary, up in the north
east corner, Indian 1, Negro 91, White 916 - total 1,008.
And then on the same page, the school I mentioned yesterday
with no definite line between,Petree Elementary, 1 Indian,
49 Negro, 280 White, for a total of 330. Then if we take
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Prince Ibraham, and the combination district of Prince
Ibraham, Oak Summit and Mineral Springs, and take Prince
Ibraham first—
THE COURT: Now, what page are we on here? Page 1
is Ibraham.
THE WITNESS: It's on page 1, listed under Ibraham.
THE COURT: Right.
A 361 White. And then on the second page, Mineral
Springs at the top, Indian 1, Negro 48, White 832, with a
total of 881. And just below it, or above it on the map and
below it on the page, Oak Summit, 30 Negro and 656 White,
for a total of 687. I believe the next is Rural Hall on
the same page, up in the northern section, 50 Negro, 871
White, for a total of 921. Old Town Elementary on the same
page, Indian 1, Negro 99, Oriental 2, White 1,186 - total
1,288. Speas, which is just south, Negro 2, Oriental 1,
White 996, for a total of 999. Sherwood Forest, just south
of Speas on the map, Negro 1, White 822, a total of 823.
And South Fork, which is just south of Sherwood Forest,
Negro 2, White 691, for a total of 693. I believe that’s
all.
THE COURT: Under your system, within a district,
every student located in that district goes to that
school if he wants to?
THE WITNESS: Yes, he is assigned there.
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Each student living within the
geographical boundaries as shown on Exhibit 24 would be
assigned to the elementary school serving that district,
is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And then under the free choice of transfer, a
child who had been assigned, we’ll say, to Vienna Elementary
School would by reason of his living within the geographic
boundaries of the attendance zone for Vienna Elementary
School, would have the privilege of transferring to another
school?
A To any other school in the system that wasn't
over its capacity.
Q Do you have fixed rated capacities for the schools
A Every school has a rated capacity, and this
capacity is determined prior to assignment.
Q Now, where there have been transfers, transfer
requests within the system, what has the Board's experience
been with respect to the granting of those requests? In
other words, what extent has the Board had to deny requests
because of overcrowding?
A During this school year, several requests had to
be denied, the schools that were over the capacity. No
other requests are denied whatever for any school.
G Since this system has been in effect, what extent
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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have you had to deny requests of black students requesting
transfer to predominantly white schools?
A There have been very few.
u Have most of the requests that you have received
been requests from pupils seeking to transfer to schools
that were predominantly of another race, or have most of
your requests been for transfer from one school to another
where the pupils are predominantly of the same race?
A The great majority of requests have been for
assignments to schools of the same race.
Q Would that be true both for black and white
students?
A I believe it is generally true for both black and
white.
THE COURT: In other words, they request a transfer
to where their race is in the majority?
TH& WITNESS: Yes. In other words, the transfer
normally is not based on race. It's based on a desire
to go to a different school.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, referring again to Defen
dants’ Exhibit 24, Mr. Ward, state whether or not the
geographic attendance zone lines have been drawn for the
purpose of discriminating with respect to race.
MR. STEIN: I object to the question as leading.
THE COURT: It's kind of liberal — w e ’re getting
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along with the evidence - but I'll sustain the objectior
It is leading. You might ask him what criteria.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What criteria have been used,
Mr. Ward, in drawing the attendance lines for the schools
shown on Defendants' Exhibit 24?
A Generally the size of the school and natural
boundaries, such as open spaces, highways, railroads, creeks,
and things of this nature which naturally tend to make an
easy boundary line and one that will be satisfactory for a
division line between families.
Q Are any of the lines based on race?
A None of the lines are based on race.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, has there been any sub
stantial change, we'll say, since '54 in the district
boundaries for the schools? I don't want you to go
into that in detail at this time, but what would you
say? Has there been any substantial change?
THE WITNESS: There have been a number of changes
in the boundaries since '54, but most of them have been
based upon the construction of new schools or divisions,
and there was some change in boundaries as a result of
the consolidation of city and county units in '63, to
take better advantage of the school facilities. Other
than that, most of the change in boundaries has come
as a result of new construction or available facilities,
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for one reason or another. The Board has basically
followed the policy of not moving people around just
to be moving them around, unless it was a good reason
for doing this, because it tends to upset people when
you move them from one place to another.
THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Womble. I know it is
kind of distracting when somebody interrupts you with
questions, but when I have something that comes to mind
I want it answered. But go ahead.
MR. WOMBLE: Was there another question?
THE COURT: No, that's it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, we are now looking at
Defendants' Exhibit 25 - and incidentally, I don't think
I've offered that in evidence. We would like to offer it
into evidence.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. WOMBLE: It's a matter of showing the elemen
tary schools in the central portion of the county.
MR. STEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that
Defendants' Exhibit 25 is received into the evidence.
(The document above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bit No. 25 for identification, was
received in evidence.)
Q (By Mr. W om ble) Mr. Ward, I believe that you had
/
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testified yesterday afternoon about some of the schools on
the eastern portion of this map. Would you go ahead and
show the racial composition, pointing out each school, Just
as you have done on the other map, down to the point where
we were covering it yesterday, which I believe was Forest
Park Elementary.
A On this map we started with Carver Elementary
School up at the top on the first page, and up in the
northeast corner of the city section, there are 706 Negroes
and 3 white, for a total of 709. The school Just south of
that, Fairview, 693 Negro. And south of that, on the same
page, Fourteenth Street, 583 Negro. And then Skyland,
which would be on the next page, Just south of that or
southeast of Fourteenth Street, 483 Negro. I believe the
next district we went to was Forest Park, which is Just
south of that, and on the front page. Forest Park has
20 Negro, 647 White, for a total of 667.
Q Now, I believe you testified yesterday that the
former Fairview Elementary School serving this area served
an all-white population?
A Yes, prior to I960.
Q Now it serves an all-black population?
A That’s correct.
Q And the same is true of Skyland?
A Yes, that occurred in the forties.
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Q Now, would you please explain the boundaries in
each of the areas served and the student makeup of Waugh-
town Elementary School?
A Waughtown Elementary is in the southeastern
corner of the city and was formerly a city school, and the
boundary on the east generally follows the former city
boundary. It goes south from the Reynolds Park Road just
east of Butler Street tc the city limit, and then follows
the old city limit line south, close to Thomasville Road.
And then along just east of Thomasville Road, up to the
boundary which we mentioned yesterday of Forest Park School.
And from Waughtown Street north directly through an open
area and through Reynolds Park to meet Reynolds Park Road,
and that serves as the northern boundary. The enrollment
at Waughtown—
Q Is that a new community or is that an old part of
the community, or what?
A This is an old established community with rela
tively little growth in it in recent years, and the makeup
is 2 Indian, 35G White, for a total of 360. We move along
over to Easton. Its boundary on the east is the same
boundary just mentioned with Waughtown. The southern
boundary follows approximately the old city limit across
west to about the southbound railroad, and at that point
follows the railroad track generally north to about Glencoe
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Street, and it follows Glencoe Street back across the
northern line, till it goes just east of Thomasville Road
and then comes back down to meet the other line, the other
district.
Q V/hat is the nature of that area as far as develop
ment is concerned?
A That area is a mixed neighborhood, and generally
it is not a real old neighborhood. I think it was generally
built sometime probably in the forties.- most of the houses
in this general community, in the southern part. The
northern part is much older than that. And the makeup of
the school is 146 Negro and 191 White, for a total of 337.
THE COURT: What page is that on?
THE WITNESS: The first page, Easton.
THE COURT: Yes, I have it. I was back here on
another page which shows 4 Negro and 11 White. That's
faculty.
THE WITNESS: That's faculty, I believe.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, yesterday you were testifying
about the transfer of pupils from Negro schools to white
schools in the late fifties and early sixties. Was Easton
one of those schools?
A Easton was the second school that we mentioned,
the second school to which Negro students were transferred.
Q And the pupils were transferring from a Negro
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school to Easton, were transferring from what school?
A They were transferring from Diggs to Easton.
Q Which is located where?
A About a mile and a half north, I guess, of Easton
School.
Q Are most of the students who now attend Easton
from that geographic area, or is this racial mix that you
have testified to largely the result of free choice of
transfer?
A The makeup of this school is largely determined
by the students who live within the district. We have very
few students transferring into Easton, if any.
Q So that the pattern of pupil attendance at Easton
now is not a continuation of the early pattern of pupils
transferring from Diggs to Easton, but is the result of the
residential makeup of the geographic attendance area served
by that school. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q All right. Now, the next school?
A The Konnoak Elementary district. The eastern
boundary is the southbound railroad; the southern boundary
is essentially the former city limits — it may be changed
now, and it goes across generally at this section of Waugh-
town-Clemmonsville Road, and then follows the old city
boundary in a slightly jagged line up north to about Beth
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Avenue, and generally follows Beth Avenue east, and then
after it crosses the Main Street, it turns diagonally south,
I believe, across - that may be Beth Avenue continuing on
across. This generally is a neighborhood that has been in
existence for a long time. There is some new growth in it
in sections, but basically it is an older neighborhood.
The composition is 1 Negro and 550 White, for a total of
551.
Q Now, as you explained, that’s right at the very
south end of the city?
A That's right.
Q Immediately north of that, what is the next
school?
A We have South Park Elementary, with the same
borderline on the south, Beth Avenue, and it follows the
city line, I believe the old city line, diagonally west to
Old Salisbury Road, and follows Old Salisbury— the
northern line follows Old Salisbury Road generally across
until it hits Acadia Avenue, and then on into South Main
Street. Then it moves north at South Main Street and
generally goes diagonally across to Fayetteville Street
until it hits the railroad, and then follows the railroad
south to close the boundaries.
Q What is that?
A It is generally an older neighborhood in the
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1 eastern and northern section. There are new developments
somewhat in the southern section of this district.
Q Now, when you say the northern section, you mean
the northern section of this particular attendance zone?
A Yes.
Q Or attendance district?
A That's South Park, and on the second page. There
are 4 Negro students and 536 whites, for a total of 540.
Q All right. The next one would by Diggs Elementary'*
A Diggs Elementary has the same southern boundary
that I mentioned. At this point, generally the boundary for
Diggs follows the Southern Railway on up to about the point
that it crosses Vargrave, and then the northern line of
that cuts through the development there just north of
Willow Street until it hits approximately Main Street, and
then closes the district down Main Street to the former line
across the bottom.
Q What is the nature of the area served by Diggs
School?
A Generally that serves a housing project. The
majority of the students come from that general area. It
is fairly thickly populated, and the district is fairly
small.
Q What about the access to the school?
A Acoess to the school is good for the housing
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project, but the access from any other area is relatively
difficult. The section shown just across this line here,
which seems to be close to Diggs, it is difficult because
the rialroad comes in and separates it and makes it almost
impossible for these children to come directly to school.
Q What is the composition of Diggs?
A Diggs has 609 Negro students in it.
Q Now, the next school immediately north of Diggs?
A Is hebane, which is located on Bruce Street and
somewhat in the northern section of this district.
Q Where is Mebane located with respect to Winston-
Salem State University?
A It would just be south of the University. The
boundary lines of Diggs, I mentioned two of them, on the
south, the southbound railway generally, and across here
to Willow Street. It generally follows up through Salem
College and through the city yard to a point about the
expressway, and then follows the expressway east just past
the Winston-Salem State University, and comes south until
it hits Stadium Drive, on back down to about the southbound
railway.
Q What is the nature of that area?
A Generally the residential area, the major portion
of it, is in the southern part of the district. The college,
the University, takes up a substantial amount of area, and
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this along with the city yard, and the northern part of this
is taken up by railway and expressways.
a The pupil makeup?
A It’s shown on the second page, 504 Negroes.
Q Now, immediately north of Mebane is what area?
A Brown Elementary School. It is rather a long,
narrow district. The district line on the south is the
Interstate Expressway. On the east generally it is Cleve
land Avenue up to about 23rd Street, and across 23rd and
generally it follows Liberty Street south until it gets
into the middle of the city district, and then I believe
comes back across about 3rd Street, and down to the rail
road complex to tie back into the Expressway.
Q V/hat is the nature of that community?
A Generally the students live in the north south
eastern portion of this district. Most of the western
portion of it is business district, up town, and relatively
few students live back in this general - in the western
part of it. And the composition of the school is 663 Negro
students.
Q Now, North Elementary?
A North Elementary is just west of Brown, and
Liberty Street generally makes the southern and eastern
boundary, and this western boundary generally follows Oak
Street, I believe, on its western boundary, and follows
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generally GlemAvenue up to approximately 23rd Street, and
then across 23rd Street to Liberty, makes the boundary of
this district.
0 What is the nature of that community?
A That is generally a relatively old community
that was one time white, and somewhere in the middle sixties
the school population changed and the community population
changed from white to Negro. And the makeup of the school
population now is 689 Negro students.
Q How recently was North Elementary attended by all-
white students?
A Along about *64, I believe, is about the time
this changed.
Q And you still serve the same geographic area, do
you?
A Generally the same geographic area that was
served. I believe that the portion on the east, the Brown
and the North Elementary district, and the Fairview district
and this general area right between them, may have been
changed somewhere in that period.
Q Let's see. The school immediately north of
North Elementary is what school?
A That would be Lowrance. The boundary of Lowrance
on the south, if we start with Glenn Avenue and 23rd Street,
generally follows Liberty Street north to about 28th Street,
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1 and then goes west on approximately— or it goes east on
approximately 28th Street, and then goes through an open
area up into the adjacent Carver line to the airport, and
then we have a direct line, or straight line, across the
northern boundary until it hits Cherry-Marshall Street.
I'm not sure what the street is. I'm not sure of the name
of this street; I can't read it on the map and I'm not sure
of the name of it.
Q It's on a direct line west, though, following
about at midpoint of the airport, is it?
A Yes, from about midpoint of the airport until it
hits Cherry-Marshall, and then it comes south on Cherry-
Marshall Street to about Corporation Parkway and then follows
Corporation Parkway back across, and roughly down Lyon
Avenue until it ties in again.
Q Nov/, the Lowrance Elementary School is what kind
of an area from the standpoint of development?
A Generally the Lowrance area is fairly old.
Portions of the district contain business, and a corner of
it has the airport. This district has changed generally
from white to Negro in the last three or four years, and
the school population at this time is 726 Negro and 12
white, for a total of 738.
Q Now, how recently was Lowrance Elementary School
serving an all-white or almost all-white pupil population?
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1 A About four years ago, and there has been a
gradual movement of white out until now only 12 students -
white students - are still attending, and I believe the
twelve live within the district.
Q Did it go through a time when the racial mix
in the school reflected this transition? In other words,
how did it progress, both at Lowrance and at North Elemen
tary? Did it go completely from white to black in one year,
or did it reflect a progressive change year by year as the
transition occurred?
A At North Elementary the transition occurred
within a one-year span of time. The transition of Lowrance
has been more slowly over a span of about four years, and
of course, there are not white students now in the North
Elementary School, and there are still a few in Lowrance.
The earlier stages of movement in Lowrance were more rapid
than they have been in the last year or two.
Q Now, the Kimberly Park Elementary?
A Kimberly Park Elementary has the same general
line on the east, Lyon Avenue, approximately on the north
it's generally Corporation Parkway, on the west—
Q Corporation Parkway or Coliseum?
A Coliseum Drive, I'm sorry. And then the western
boundary comes through generally an open space down through
the Children's Home property, down roughly - I'm coming too
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far - generally to the corner - the open space - the
corner of the Children's Home property, and then across on
about 20th Street to Thurman, and then it drops down a
little lower on Thurman and goes roughly across on 14th
Street to close the bottom portion of its boundaries.
Q What is the nature of the area served by Kimberly
Park?
A Generally Kimberly Park is an older area of the
city and has been a Negro area for a long time. This school,
I believe, probably has always been - or the original
school, this school was burned down about three years ago
and a new Kimberly Park School was built to replace it.
Q On the same site?
A On the same site. The new building is not quite
as large as the one originally there, and this school is
completely filled. The enrollment there at this time is
778 Negro.
0 All right. What is immediately south of Kimberly
Park?
A Just south was Carver Crest Elementary, and it's
listed as Carver Crest on this map, and the names have been
changed now to Cook Elementary School. The northern boundary
I have just described is the southern boundary of Kimberly
Park. The eastern line generally follows Oak Street down
to a point roughly of the railroad—
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Q The Southern Railroad?
A The Southern Railroad across generally the eastern
border of it, and then it goes - the line on the west—
G That would be the southern border?
A That would be the southern border, and the
western border is generally up through the Children’s Home
Property until it ties in up about 20th Street with the
Kimberly Park.
Q What is the nature of the area served by that
school?
A This is still generally an older area that has
been a Negro residential development. This school was
built in about 1950, and the makeup is 477 Negro.
Q Now, the school immediately south of Carver Crest?
A Is Brunson Elementary, and Brunson Elementary has
an unusual district in the fact that it has taken into it
several areas that really do not have as many pupils in it.
The southern boundary of it generally is the Interstate
Expressway, and it includes generally the Baptist Hospital
complex, and that portion of Ardmore, though there are now
very few students in that district, just as the eastern
portion of the district is essentially the downtown business
district. On the west the general line is Stratford Road
up to Reynolda Road, and then it follows Reynolds Road
northwest up to about Silas Creek and generally follows
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Silas Creek up the Reynolds Estate out to the Old Town
Golf Course until it comes to Cherry-Marshall, and then
back down Cherry-Marshall to Coliseum Drive and back west
and generally follows the Children’s Home line south to
tie in to about where the Southern Railway makes the
borderline for the Carver Crest district, and then it comes
south just off of Oak Street down to about 5th Street, I
believe, and then ties back in to the eastern district as
the line generally through the railroad line just east of
the city. Now, portions of this district, for instance
the Baptist Hospital complex now, has very few students.
The whole eastern portion of the district is generally
business. lhis area is the Methodist—
Q When you say ’’this area", you’re talking about
the sort of north central part?
A The north central part is made up of the Methodist
Children's Home. The portion up in this general area was
not developed at the time the district was assigned, and
later it now has considerable business along in this area,
with some apartment developments in this area, and generally
their proportion of it is not developed. It has the golf
course and Reynolds Estates in it.
Q Now, you referred to the Children's Home. I
don't believe you show a school there, but there is actually
a school at the Children's Home, isn’t there?
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A The Children's Home actually serves the district,
and we have not drawn boundary lines on it, but the bound
aries oi Children's Home are the Children's Home p operty
itself.
Q Is that school owned by the school system?
A The school is owned by the Children's Home cor
poration, ana the school is operated by us as a part of the
State school system, but the Children's Home provides the
school, the facilities and operational cost.
Q What is the pupil makeup of Brunson School?
A Brunson has 1 Indian, 135 Negro, 2 Oriental, 1
Spanish, 5AO White, for a total of 679.
Q Since we have referred to the Children's Home
School, what is the makeup of that school?
A Children's Home now has at the elementary level
180 students and they are white.
Q South of Brunson, what is the next school district?
A Latham Elementary School is just south, and the
expressway is generally the border on the north side.
Lockland Avenue is the approximate border on the west side,
and Old Salisbury Road and Arcadia Avenue make the southern
border, and generally north Main Street, or South Main
Street, up until you get close to Salem College. Then it
moves off through the College and up to generally the
public works area, until it reaches the expressway there.
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Q That would be the public works area or the Salem
Cemetery area?
A I believe it's through the cemetery area and not
the public works area. Generally this area is somewhat
like Brunson. It has three slighly separated residential
areas serving the schools, one in the southeastern corner,
one on the west, and a portion just north of the school.
And then the northern part of it gets generally into a
business area similar to that in Brunson. So that the
district for a relatively small school is fairly large for
a central district, just as it is in the case of Brunson.
And the makeup of Latham is 3 Indians, 7 Negroes, 1 Oriental
and 415 white, for a total of 426.
Q That school is located more or less in the center
of that district?
A Yes.
Q Now, the school immediately west of Lathem—
A Is Ardmore Elementary School on Miller Street,
and it has the same general boundary on the east of Lockland
Avenue. It follows Salem Creek and the old city limit
boundary, and then goes north close to Ebert, just west of
Ebert Street until it hits the old city limits line, and
then goes west to roughly the creek which follows right on
up through generally to hit Magnolia Avenue, as it goes
through this portion; then follows Magnolia by way up
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1 diagonally east until it comes to just a point-- to a point
just north of Fairway Drive, and through the back lot lines,
I believe, over to Melrose Street, and then it follows
Melrose north to just north of Rosewood, and then over to
Miller Street, and north on Miller to Queen and closes the
boundary generally on Queen Street.
Q What is that area as far as development is con
cerned and the age of it and so forth?
A This residential area dates back— it is not one
the older sections of the city; it was built several
years ago, and at this point there is not a great deal of
development in this area itself because, except for the
southern portion, it’s pretty well developed, and it has
been for some time.
Q And that is a substantial portion of Ardmore, is
it?
A Yes.
0 It would have been developed probably how many
years ago?
A Probably thirty or forty years ago. And the
makeup of the school is 7 Negro, 2 Oriental, and 586 white,
for a total of 595.
Q I i mediately west of Ardmore, what's the elementary
school district?
A Bolton Street Elementary School. It is located
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in the northeastern corner of the district, which really
serves the western portion of Ardmore. The boundary line
is on the east - I have already given you. On the west—
on the north, it generally follows Hawthorne Road out until
it crosses 158 and then becomes Old Vineyard Road out to
1-40. It follows 1-40 out to a point— well, it's a point
in an open area - identifying streets - it's close to the
point— it goes south through an open area to come into
the Southern Railroad at about Hughes Street. It follows
about a quarter of a mile out this street, and then follows
generally Burke Kill Road out into open country, and goes
diagonally east to pick up the Armore Elementary boundary
at the southern tip. Host of the development in the Bolton
Street area at this point is in and around and Just east
of the school, but there are several developments to the
south and in the northern fringe. A portion of this is a
business area, hospital complex, and so forth. The
enrollment is 1 Negro and 520 whites, for a total of 521.
0 Immediately north of the Bolton and Ardmore areas
is what school district?
A Moore Elementary is located on Knollwood Avenue
and genersBLy the northern section of this district. The
southern line has been described in the Ardmore and Bolton
Elementary, and generally on the north side it follows the
Interstate Expressway all the way into the Baptist Hospital
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complex, and then ties in with the other line at that point.
This area is generally a little bit newer in development
than the other portions of Ardmore, but it is really a part
of the northern section of the Ardmore complex. It does
have a considerable business development just north of the
school on the expressway.
Q What is the composition of that school?
A We have 1 Oriental, 438 whites, for a total of
439.
Q Immediately north of Moore School is what school?
A Whitaker Elementary School, and the southern
boundary of that is the Interstate Expressway. The eastern
boundary is Stratford Road to Reynolda Road. Then it
follows Reynolda Road north to Silas Creek Parkway. It
follows Silas Creek Parkway down to Robinhood Road. It
goes east on Robinhood Road to Wellington, and then follows
Wellington south and through the Forsyth County Club Golf
Course and through Hathaway Park until it ties in down at
the Interstate Expressway again. Generally this is an
older residential area, in the eastern portion of it,
with considerable new development along the west, generally
all the way up and down. And the enrollment here is 7
Negro, 608 white, for a total of 615.
Q Now, what criteria were used in establishing the
school boundary lines for this part of the school system.
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shown on Defendants’ Exhibit 25?
A Generally the boundary lines were determined by
the size of the school and natural boundaries as often as
possible, such as railways, highways, open spaces, and things
of that nature, creeks sometimes came into play.
Was race a factor in determining those boundaries?
A Race was not a factor in determining the boundaries.
Q If you would take the stand again, sir. Mr. Ward,
I show you Defendants’ Exhibit 27 and ask if you would please
explain what that is.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 27
for identification.)
A This is a summary sheet showing the makeup of the
total school system based upon the information that we have
been discussing at this meeting. It was collected in
December 1969.
MR. WOMBLE: I would like to offer this into
evidence.
THE COURT: Have you had an opportunity to examine
that, Mr. Stein? I will give you an opportunity.
MR. STEIR: I won't have any objection to this
exhibit.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence is Defendants' Exhibit 27.
(The document above referred to
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bit No. 27 for identification, was received in evidence.)
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Ward, referring to this
exhibit 26, how many elementary schools are there in all?
A Forty-two.
Q Now, you have testified with respect to the
Children's Home School. I don't believe there was any
testimony with respect to the Children's Center. What kind
of a school is that?
A Children's Center is a small school for the
physically handicapped. Actually we do not operate the
school except to provide the teachers. The rest of it is
operated by the Children's Center, Incorporated.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
That is a private organization?
That's a private organization.
Who owns the school facility?
The Chilhen's Center.
And what is the racial composition of the children
at the Children's Center at the present time?
A At the present time there are 4 Negro and 46
white, for a total of 50.
THE COURT: You say the purpose of the school is
for what?
THE WITNESS: Primarily for the physically handi
capped.
THE COURT: The physically handicapped.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Where is that located?
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A It is located on Coliseum Drive at Reynolda Road.
Q Now, how many elementary schools are all black
in their pupil composition as of December of 1969?
A There were nine.
Q How many were all white?
A There were three.
Q Now, the sheet that you have there has a "plus 2".
What does that have reference to?
A The "plus 2" has reference to the fact that two
schools which are not all white have a racial makeup that
does not include black. They are oriental or Indian.
Q How many junior high schools are there?
A There are fifteen junior high schools.
Q As of December 1969, December 19, 1969, how many
junior high schools were there that were all black?
A There was one.
Q How many all white?
A Two.
Q With reference to the senior highs, how many
total senior highs in the system?
A Ten.
Q And as of December 19, 1969, how many were all
black?
A Three.
Q And how many all white?
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1 Mr. Ward, I show you now Defendants' Exhibit 29
&no I ask you to please explain what thai mftp is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 29
for identification.)
This map shows the junior high school districts
of the schools that are outside of the general City of
Winston-Salem.
Q And Exhibit 28 is what?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 28
for identification.)
A It shows the junior high school districts
generally within the city.
Q Now, where you say these are within or outside
of the city, do they actually follow corporate lines any
more?
A I use the word "generally" because our school
boundaries do not necessarily follow the city boundaries.
MR. WOMBLE: We want to offer those into evidence,
T-'-cr Honor.
THE COURT: 28 and 29?
CLERK IDOL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, have you had an opportunity
or do you want to reserve your objection?
MR. STEIN: No, sir.
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-7'
THE COURT: Let the record show that received into
0 .
the evidence are Defendants* Exhibits 28 and 29.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bits Nos. 28 and 29 for identifica
tion, were received in evidence.)
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, please explain what
Exhibit 30 is?
A Exhibit 30 is a map generally showing the high
school districts outside of the City of Winston-Salem.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 30
for identification.)
Q How are they shown?
A They are shown by dashed lines separating the
school districts, and the school is shown on that by a
square block and the name.
Q Basically the same as with reference to the
elementary and junior high schools?
A Similar.
Q I also show you Defendants' Exhibit 31 and I ask
you to explain what that is.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 31
for identification.)
A It is the same type of map for the high schools
generally within the City of Winston-Salem.
MR. WOMBLE: We also offer these into evidence,
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Your Honor.
MR. STEIN: No objections.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendants'
Exhibits 30 and 31 are received into the evidence.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bits Nos. 30 and 31 for identifica
tion, were received into evidence.)
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you Plaintiffs’
Exhibit 29 and ask you to explain what that map purports
to show.
A Plaintiffs' Exhibit 69?
Q 29.
A 29 shows all of the schools and their boundaries
for the entire school system on the same map. The lines
identifying the elementary districts are dashed blue lines.
The lines identifying the junior high districts are dashed
green lines. And the lines identifying the high school
districts are dashed yellow lines.
THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. You are talking
about Defendants' Exhibit 29?
MR. WOMBLE: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29.
THE WITNESS: It's not ours.
THE COURT: Repeat again the lines and the__
Mr. Stein has that in the plaintiffs' evidence.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, just so you know, this
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1 map was also prepared by the defendants.
THE COURT: Oh, I see.
THE WITNESS: We prepared this map and it indicates
on the map, Judge, the scale.
THE COURT: That is what I've been wanting.
MR. WOMBLE: We prepared it and furnished it to
them, and they introduced it. So it's in evidence.
Your Honor, I believe for this next series of questions
that it would be very meaningful to the Court— somehow
or other we need to get the map closer to the bench.
THE COURT: I will come down there. We usually
take a short recess at about this time. Let's do that
now, and those of you who are interested in this case,
if you want to smoke out in the hall, you may, and
somebody will notify you at about the time that we
are going to take back up so that you will know.
All right. Let's take a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ward, if you'll come
back to the stand.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I believe it might be
helpful if you did come down to where you could see the
map.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Ward, you have explained
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the Plaintiffs* Exhibit 29. It purports to show the district
boundary lines or the geographic attendance zone lines for
all three schools, elementary, junior high and high school,
and that the boundary lines are color coded as shown on the
map. Generally speaking, what plan or pattern does the
local school system follow in assigning children from elemen--
tary to junior high and on to high school?
A Our system generally is what we call a feeder
pattern of certain elementaiy schools feeding certain junior
high schools, and certain junior high schools to certain
senior high schools. The basic pattern, if it could be
followed, that we would desire throughout if modifications
weren't necessary would be two elementary schools feeding
a junior high school, and two junior high schools feeding a
senior high school. This would be the ideal situation.
Q You have how many grades in elementary school?
A One through six.
Q And junior high school?
A Seven through nine.
Q And high school?
A Ten through twelve.
Q In round figures what proportion does that mean
you all have in each of the school systems?
A A little more than fifty percent would be in
elementary, and generally approximately one-fourth in either
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of the others. However, the drop-out rate for senior high
school would make the enrollment there a little bit smaller
proportionately.
Q Now, generally speaking, what enrollment do you
consider a good enrollment in a high school?
A Generally our recommendation is that it ought to
be above 1,000 or 1,200. Twelve hundred would be preferred,
and not to exceed 2,000.
Q How about junior high schools?
A Junior high, generally the preference would be
from about 750 to 1,200.
0 And elementary?
A Five hundred to about 750 would be generally
acceptable.
Q Now, would you please take the districts for the
various high schools as shown on the map and explain the
high school boundaries for each high school, the boundaries
for the junior highs that serve each high school, and then
explain which elementary schools serve those junior highs.
A Then perhaps the easiest place to begin would be
on the west. Your Honor, this is shown on about the third
sheet, and the junior highs and senior highs on the next
page. The juniors are at the top and the senior highs down
at the bottom. And we might start with the west, southwest
district. Generally along the southwestern section of the
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county, you have the senior high school district for West
Senior High, and I have outlined the elementary school
districts, so I will not attempt to follow just the specific
outlines of the district, but point out the schools that
feed the junior and the senior high schools. So let’s look
first at the Southwest Junior High.
Q Where is it located?
A It's in the southwestern section of the county
generally.
Q Could you point it out on the map?
A It follows—
Q Point out the high school.
A The Southwest High School is here on the Lewis-
ville-Clemmonsville Road, just about a mile north of
Clemmons. Southwest Junior High and West Senior High
campuses are adjacent at that location, and both of them
serve the same territory, and the feeder schools for
Southwest Junior High School are Clemmons Elementary on the
south—
Q You m:git take that slow enough so the Judge can
get that.
A Then Lewisville Elementary just north of that,
and Vienna Elementary. And in the eastern section, South
Fork Elementary—
G When you say eastern section, you’re talking about
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I
section—
A The eastern section of the Southwest Junior High
district. Now, all four of these elementary schools feed
into Southwest Junior High School, and the composition of
that is 45 Negro and 621 white, for a total of I»m sorry,
I'm on the wrong one - 19 Negro, 1,248 white, and 1,267
total.
Q That is the southwestern part of Forsyth County,
isn't it?
A That's correct. Now, all of the students from
Southwest Junior High attend West Senior High. So the same
feeder pattern follows right on through the same district,
the same location. The enrollment at the Senior High is
23 Negro, 1,056 white, for a total of 1,079.
Q All right. Now, the next high school attendance
area to the east of your West area?
A I think it might be well just to point out that
we will talk about the Parkland Senior High School district
and then talk about the junior high schools within the
district. The Parkland district takes in all of the southern
section of the city and the county, and it borders generally
on the south, generally on the West and the Southwest
District, and I will discuss first the Griffith Junior
High district, and the junior high district at Griffith is
fed only by Griffith Elementary School. So the boundaries
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of the Griffith Elementary and Griffith Junior High Schools
are the same, and the student population of Griffith Junior
High School is 525 white. The Junior High School district I
adjacent to the Griffith is the Philo Junior High School i
district, and the junior high school is just north of the
Konnoak Elementary School in the southwestern corner
generally of that district. And the two feeder elementary
schools to Philo Junior High School are Konnoak Elementary
and South Park Elementary, with roughly a third of the
Latham Elementary district, a portion south of Salem Creek,
also going into Philo Junior High School.
Q So the Latham Elementary School district is
divided into two districts for the purpose of attendance
lines, junior high school?
A That's generally correct, yes. Now, the enroll
ment at Philo is 19 Negro and 638 white. That's on the same
page.
THE COURT: You say Latham Elementary is divided
into two districts?
THE WITNESS: It is one district for elementary
but as a feeder program the district is divided into
different junior highs.
THE COURT: Have him tell me somewhere about that
division line, Mr. Womble. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Let me just do it now.
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-71
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. V/omble) It follows what course
geographically?
A The southeastern section of the Latham district,
the portion south of Salem Creek, is the portion of the
district which is assigned to Philo Junior High. Salem
Creek is the dividing line.
G Why was Latham district divided into two parts
for purposes of feeding into the junior high school system?
A When Latham School was built, a portion of the
South Park and tie Ardmore School districts, and of the
former Granville Elementary School, the districts were
combined to make Latham. The geographic relationship and
the former direction that these students traveled cause the
Board to agree to an optional district at that time and
later formed a firm one down Salem Creek, and the rest of
them are assigned across the creek to Dalton.
Q All right.
A Moving on east a^d still a portion of the Parkland
district is Hill Junior High School, and Hill Junior High
School is served by three elementary -schools - Easton,
Waughtown, and Forest Park, .md generally all of the ele
mentary schools m those three districts attend Hill Junior
High School.
d You say generally; actually all of the students
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in those areas would be assigned_
A All of them are assigned to Hill. And the makeup j
of Hill is 41 Negro, 530 white, for a total of 571. Then I
the three—
a Did you give the figures as showing to the makeup
of Philo Junior High?
A I think so.
THE COURT: 19 and 638.
0 (By Mr. Womble) Okay.
A The feeder pattern then for Parkland Senior High
School, which is located in the district at the edge of
the Griffith district on 150 - North Carolina Highway 150 -
is for Griffith Junior High, Philo Junior High, and Hill
Junior High, and the enrollment at Parkland is 4 Indian,
61 Negro, 1 Spanish, 1,453 white - for a total of 1,522.
THE COURT: That feeds Philo and what? v
THE WITNESS: Hill and Griffith.
0 (By Mr. Womble) All right. Now, what is the
next one on the perimeter of the county, moving east?
A As we move on to the east and consider the East
Senior High School district, it takes generally the whole
eastern part of the county and has three Junior high schools
feeding East Senior High School, and East Senior High School
is Just off Interstate - about two miles west.
G Interstate what?
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A Interstate 40, two miles west, or east of the
city. If we first look at the Glenn Junior High School
district, which covers the southern portion of the east
section of the county, it is fed by Union Cross and Sedge
Garden Elementary Schools, and the enrollment at Glenn is
3 Indian, 2 Negro, and 768 white, for a total of 773. And
then Northeast is Kemersville Elementary, is Kemersville
Junior High School. That is fed by Kemersville Elementary
School - only one elementary school feeding this Junior
high, and the enrollment at Kemersville Junior High is
24 Negro, and 500 white, for a total of 524. And then in
the northern section is Walkertown Junior High, fed by
Walkertown Elementary and Petree Elementary. And the
Walkertown Junior High enrollment is 1 India, 45 Negro,
621 white, for a total of 667. That leaves Glenn Junior
High, Kemersville Junior High, and Walkertown Junior High
feeding East Senior High.
THE COURT: Now, wait Just a minute. Walkertown
Junior High—
THE WITNESS: East Senior High is fed by the three
Junior highs.
THE COURT: I see.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Walkertown—
A East is the senior high for the whole eastern
district.
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Q
A
A
Q
East is fed by what junior highs?
By Glenn, Kernersvllle, and Walkertown.
THE COURT: All right.
If we follow on around—
(By Mr. Womble) What is your pupil population at
East?
A East Senior High pupil population is 65 Negro,
147U white, for a total of 1539.
Q All right.
A If we move on to the northwest, the Mineral
Springs Junior High School district covers the district
mentioned yesterday for Prince Ibraham, Oak Summit and
Mineral Springs Elementary Schools. These three schools do
not have separate elementary districts, but ail three of
them feed into Mineral Springs Junior High School. The
makeup at Mineral Springs is 2 Indian 28 Negro, 888 white,
for a total of 918.
THE COURT: Mineral Springs is fed again by what?
THE WITNESS: By the elementary schools, Oak
Summit, Ibraham, and Mineral Springs Elementary.
THE COURT: All right.
A The next junior high in the North district and
west of the Mineral Springs District is Northwest Junior
High on Murray Road, and it is fed by Rural Hall Elementary
School, by Old Richmond Elementary School, and by the portion
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1 of Old Town Elementary School generally north of North
Carolina Highway 67. Now, the enrollment at Northwest is
107 Negro, 1 Oriental, 959 white, for a total of 1,067.
In addition to that, we have the Hanes Junior High district,
which is south in a portion of the northern part of the
city. The southern portion of the North High School
district. Hanes Junior High is fed by North Elementary
and Lowrance. Now, these three junior highs feed North
Senior High, but we have a minor exception here at the senior
high level, and let me give you the figures on Hanes, and
then I ’ll talk about this exception. The figures on Hanes
are 500 Negro, 13 white, for a total of 513. The North
Senior High School district is made up of the Mineral
Springs Junior High, the Northwest Junior High, and the
Hanes Junior High districts, plus a portion of the Kimberly
Park Elementary School district, and this is an exception
to the general plan. The portion of the elementary district
east of Cherry-Marshall and north of 20th Street, this
portion of Kimberly Elementary is also assigned to North
High School.
THE COURT: Where does the other portion of
Kimberly Park?
THE WITNESS: The other portion - well, this
portion and the remaining portion of Kimberly Park
attends Paisley Junior High, and the rest of the
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students go to Reynolds Senior High, at the senior high
level.
u (By Mr. Womble) Now—
k The total composition now of North is 1 Indian,
30b Negro, 1460 white, for a total of 1766.
Now, Mr. Ward, when Hanes was built - let’s see,
Hanes is
A
Q
A
Q
of Hanes
A
Q
located where in the city?
In the northern portion of tho city.
What race did it serve when it was first built?
It served the white.
And I believe you testified that the composition
now is bOO Negro and 13 white?
Yes.
Over what period of time has the pupil population
of Hanes been shifting from white to Negro?
A Generally that has occurred since 1965.
0 State whether or not— well, what has the pupil
mix in the school been during the period of transition?
Did it shift all at once?
A It shifted gradually over about a three—year
period from white to almost all black, over a period of
about three year's.
u Where did the pupils in this area - that is the
Hanes area - formerly go to high school?
n There was a high school at Hanes. It was at one
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time a high school, and the pupils went to Hanes Senior
High.
Q And it has now been made a junior high, is that
right?
A It was closed, the high school was closed, I
believe in about '63 and made into a junior high school.
Now, you mentioned the Kimberly Park area and
the fact that that elementary school district is divided
for purposes of feeding into the high schools. What high
school formerly served the Kimberly Park and the Carver
Crest Elementary Scnools?
A Paisley Senior High served this area.
Q Where was Paisley Senior High located?
A It is located on Thurman Street, or just off
Thurman Street, at Taft.
Q Was that a separate high school, or was that a
combination senior high school and junior high school?
A It was a combination junior and senior high
school in the same building. We had separate principals,
but it was all in the same building.
Q Is there any high school curriculum at Paisley
any more?
A Not at this time.
Q That is no senior high school?
A No senior high.
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Q Y/hen was that senior high school curriculum at
Paisley dropped?
A Two years ago. Really about a year and a half
at this time when Paisley Senior High School was closed
and the students who were then attending Paisley were
assigned - the group in the northern portion to North Senior
High; the group in the western portion generally to Reynolds
High School, and a few from, I believe, the North Elementary
district of Paisley were assigned to Atkins High School.
Q So thafcthe closing of Paisley Senior High School
materially increased the number of Negro students attending
both Reynolds High School and North High School, is that
correct?
A Yes, it did, several hundred.
Q Do you remember about how many in each school?
A Somewhere between 250, I believe, and 300 at each
one of the schools.
Q All right. What is your next high school district0
A If we continue on with the general outlying
districts, then the next school would be Mount Tabor Senior
High School on Petree Road, just north of Polo Road, and
the Jefferson Junior High School is the only junior high
school in the Mount Tabor district. The makeup of each of
these two schools is slightly different from others.
Jefferson Junior High School only contains grades seven and
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eight, and Mount Tabor Senior High School contains nine,
ten, eleven and twelve. And the junior high school of
Jefferson is fed by Sherwood Forest and Speas Elementary
Schools, with the portion of Old Town Elementary district
generally south of North Carolina #67. And the pupil
population at Jefferson is 1 Negro and 815 white, for a
total of 816. That is just at the two grades. And the
same district makes up Mount Tabor Senior High District.
1 Negro and 1219 whites, for a total of 1220.
Q Now, you have already made some reference to
Reynolds High School in connection with your explanation
about Hanes and Kimberly Park and North. Please go ahead
and give the details on the attendance areas served by
Reynolds High, both at the elementary and junior high
levels.
A The Reynolds High District generally is served
by Dalton Junior High, by Wiley Junior High, and most of
Paisley Junior High with the exception of the section of
Kimberly Park Elementary School which was assigned to North.
The Dalton Junior High School is fed by Ardmore Elementary,
Moore Elementary, and Bolton Elementary, and the portion of
Latham Elementary district north of Salem Creek.
THE COURT: Dalton Junior is fed from Bolton__
TIE WITNESS: Ardmore, Moore and the portion of
Latham north of the creek.
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THE COURT: All right.
A Wiley Junior High School is fed by Brunson Ele
mentary and Whitaker, and Paisley Junior High School is fed
by Carver Crest and Kimberly Park.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What are the compositions of
those?
A The composition of Dalton Junior High is 1 Oriental
829 white, for a total of 830. Wiley, 2 Indian, 183 Negro,
2 Spanish, 622 white, for a total of 809. And Paisley has
552 Negro. Now, all three of these feed Reynolds Senior
High, with the exception of the portion of Kimberly Park
which we pointed out for North.
Q And the pupil makeup at Reynolds?
A The pupil makeup at Reynolds High School is 1
Indian, 255 Negro, 1 Oriental, 1456 white, for a total of
1713.
Q Now, Anderson?
A The Anderson district is due east of Reynolds, and
Anderson Junior and Senior High Schools are in the same
building, and Anderson Junior High School is served by Diggs
and Mebane Elementary Schools. The high school and the
junior high school have the same district, and they are
operated as one combination school, and the total enrollment
for the junior and the senior high school, grades 7 through
12, is 976 Negro.
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Q If you divided that between junior high and the
high school, the senior high students, would it be more or
less fifty-fifty?
A The enrollment would be slightly higher for junior
high school, possibly 500 at the junior high, 476 at the
senior high.
THE COURT: In other words, the 976 includes both
junior and senior high schools?
THE WITNESS: Yes, all of the six grades.
u (By Mr. Womble) Now, with respect to the Anderson
Junior-Senior High School, what plans did you have for that
school in 1968 and for the expenditure of bond money which
would have an effect on that school?
A The plan at that time was to leave Anderson Junior
High in the present building, which is overcrowded by the
combination of the two, and build an addition to Parkland,
and the students who are now attending Anderson Senior High
would then attend Parkland Senior High. Plans had gone
forward enough until a preliminary plan had been completed
by architects for use by the Board when the suit stopped
the possibility of going forward. If that had continued,
the school - Anderson Senior High School - could have been
discontinued in oeptember of 1969, and these students would
have been attending Parkland now.
Q So that would have had what effect on the number
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1 of Negroes attending Parkland High School?
A Well, it would have increased it by approximately
450.
Q Now, what is immediately north of Anderson Junior-
Senior High School?
A Just north of Anderson is Atkins Senior High
School on Cameron Avenue at 12th Street, and it is fed by
Kennedy Junior High School, which is west of Atkins and
just off the 9th Street Exit on 52, the north side of 52,
and both of these schools serve the same general area. The
elementary schools that feed into Kennedy are Skyland,
Brown, North Elementary, Fairview and 14th Street, and the
makeup of Kennedy was 1,042 Negro, 1 white, for a total of
1,043. And Kennedy alone serves Atkins, which covers the
same district, and the makeup of Atkins is 1135 white -
I mean Negro.
Q What high school district is immediately north of
the Atkins district?
A Just north of Atkins is Carver Junior and Carver
Senior High School, or in the same large building with
Carver Elementary School, and the district for all three of
these schools is the same. So Carver Elementary feeds into
the junior high school and into the senior high school, and
it is a combination school similar to Anderson. The
enrollment in grades 7 through 12 is 499, and the breakdown
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1 is roughly half and half, probably a few more at the Junior
high level.
Q Now, that again is the high school, or rather it
is the school that was built about 1950 to serve all of the
Negro students in the Forsyth County school administrative
unit outside of the city of Winston-Salem?
A That is correct.
Q Now, what if any plans did you have in 1968 with
respect to Carver School?
A At that time, it was planned to close both Carver
Junior High and Carver Senior High, and additions had been
planned for Walkertown Junior High, and the preliminary
plans had been drawn, so that the Junior high school students
at Carver could attend 'Walkertown Junior High, and an addi
tion had been planned, the preliminary drawings had been
made, for an addition at East High School, and the senior
high school students in the Carver area would attend East
Senior High School.
Q Why was that not completed?
A W'hen the first court case was brought and we could
not use bond money, then we could not continue with the
project. If we could have, both of these schools would have
been closed as of last September and these students would
have been attending the Walkertown Junior and East Senior
High School at this time.
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Q
-7
tad that would have increased the Negro enrollment
at Walkertown by approximately how many?
A Roughly 250.
0 And at East high School by about how many?
A About the same number, about 250.
M u W0MBLE: Did the Court want to ask Mr. Ward
anything further about the map?
THE COURT: I believe not.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendants
Exhibit. 27. based on the testimony you have Just given, does
the pupil summary identified as Defendants' Exhibit 27
then show the numbers of students at each level, both black
and white, where there is a mixing of the races in the
schools?
A Yes, it does.
Q How many blacks, SS of December 19, were attending
school in mixed schools where whites were in the majority?
A 2,025.
Q How many black were attending schools that were
uixed racially but with a black majority
MP- STEm: Your Hon“h. I would request counsel
to clarify the question. T would li <e to know now -
I know it's not my turn to cross examine - well, for
instance, c e one white child__
THE COURT: Kennedy. Can I help you out?
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MR. STEIN: Kennedy, right. It’s a mixing of
a thousand-so black kids there. I just want to under
stand what these statistics mean.
THE COURT: Do you understand so that you can
clarify that?
THE WITNESS: Yes. This does include any school
that has any number.
THE COURT: Now, let me go back and catch up a
little bit. You are speaking from Exhibit 27, are you
not?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes.
THE COURT: Now, the first figure that he gave
was a txiousand—some. Where is that on here?
THE WITNESS: That was 2,025. That's about the
middle of the paper.
THE COURT: I see. Blacks in mixed schools with
white majority. Now, I want to understand the point
that Mr. otein was making. I don't understand what you
all straightened out about this. What was your question,
Mr. Stein?
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I was pointing to Kennedy
Junior High School, which was shown on the last page
of Defendants' Exhibit 26.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. STEIN: Which shows 1,042 black students and
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1 one white student.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR* STEIN: I was trying to see whether these
1,042 black students are included in this next figure
he's about to testify about.
THE COURT: Oh, I follow. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I've answered the question.
That is included. We have not used any percentages or
anything; we have used numbers of pupils.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble, go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) So based on those figures then,
there were how many blacks in mixed schools where the blacks
were in the majority?
A There were 3,160.
Q Then that made a total of how many blacks who were
in schools that were integrated to some degree?
A 5,185.
Q Then with respect to— now, that was out of total
of how many blacks?
A That's out of a total of a little over thirteen
thousand. Actually the figure is 13,879.
Q Now, how many white students as of that date,
December 19, 1969, were attending mixed schools in which
whites were in a majority?
A There were 32,608.
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Q
-733
And how many white students were attending mixed
schools in which blacks were in a majority?
A 193.
Q So that made a total of how many white students
that were attending schools which were integrated in some
degree?
A 32,801.
Q Out of a total of how many?
A 36,521.
Q How many blacks were attending all black schools,
schools in which the students were all black students?
A 8,541.
Q And how many approximately white students were
attending schools that were populated by all white students?
A 2,915.
Q Then that breakdown shows the numbers or approxi
mate numbers at each school grade level, does it?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Ward, does the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
School System utilize mobile classrooms?
A Yes, it does.
Q You have referred to the fact that for the imple
mentation of the free choice of transfer policy, each school
has a rated capacity. Please state whether or not the rated
capacity includes mobile classrooms?
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A Mobile classrooms are not included in determining
the capacity of a school.
Q Are transfers allowed when schools exceed the
rated capacity from one attendance area to another?
A No, they are not.
Q What is the basis on which mobile classrooms are
added at a school?
A If the school attendance area is growing rapidly
enough until the students cannot be housed within the area,
then mobile classrooms are added for the benefit of the
people who live within the area.
Q You testified, I believe yesterday, that there had
been a desegregation of activities in connection with the
operation of the schools. What does the school system do
insofar as athetics is concerned?
A After the agreement with HEW, I believe in 1965,
that we would operate a unitary school system, we combined
all of our athletic activities and other programs and have
operated them without regard to race in any manner since
that time.
Q Does this involve inter-scholastic athletics as
well as intra-mural?
A Basically at the junior and senior high school
level, our teams are involved in playing other schools, and
at the junior high school level, when we made the change, all
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of our schools have been playing at the junior high school
level in the same conference with each other with no dis
tinction as to race. At the senior high school level, we
have moved in that direction as conferences have allowed
that. Atkins High School, I believe, has joined the don-
ference about two years ago. Anderson has just recently
joined. Atkins went into the 4-A; Anderson has now joined
the 3-A conference. And we have helped both of these schools
to get into the conference as rapidly as we could.
Q What do you mean by the conference?
A The makeup of high school athletics consists of
three or four different conferences and districts for schools
of different sizes, and the larger— the conference for the
largest size is 4-A, the next largest is 3-A, and in this
area we are speaking of the 4-A conference for the larger
schools and the 3-A for the schools of the next size.
Q What geographic areas do the conferences cover?
A Generally the 4-A covers Forsyth, Guilford, and
one or two counties to the south, probably including Salis
bury and Lexington. I believe the 3—A conference covers a
little bit different territory.
Q But is not just Forsyth County?
A It is not just the Forsyth County.
THE COURT: Let's see now. You only have one 4-A?
THE WITNESS: Yes, we have a number of 4—A's. All
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the other large high schools like North, Reynolds,
Parkland, and East, were already in the 4-A, and after
this point Atkins has now— has been playing in a
Negro conference. It then moved into the regular 4-A
conference.
THE COURT: And Atkins is in the 4-A now?
THE WITNESS: Atkins is in the 4-A, I believe
playing its third year now in the 4-A conference.
THE COURT: Which means its schedules— I mean
in the scheduling, Atkins could play the others?
THE WITNESS: It's scheduled Just like Reynolds,
North, or any other school.
THE COURT: And they likely would play one
another?
THE WITNESS: They have been playing one another.
This is the third year.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Of course, there are other 4-A
conferences across the state?
A There are a number of divisions of 4-A conferences.
Q What about other activities? Has there been
segregation of other activities in the schools, or have
they also been desegregated?
A All other activities were desegregated in the
same year and in the same manner.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I think that's all that
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-737
I care to ask Mr. Ward at this time.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, would you prefer to start
your cross examination or for us to come back fifteen
minutes earlier? We've got about fifteen minutes to
work, or we can work now and come back at 2:00, or
we can stop now and come back at 1:45. Which would
you prefer?
MR. STEIN: Whatever the Court would prefer. I
think that my preference would be to wait until after
lunch. I spoke with Mr. Vanore at the break, and we
discussed whether he would go first or I would go
first, and I thought that it might be easier if he
went first and then I could pick up all my cross
examination.
THE COURT: I appreciate your calling that to my
attention. I have you people come here and then I
ignore you. You are entitled to ask some questions,
any examination that you wish. Do you wish to ask some
questions, Mr. Vanore?
Ml;. VANORE: Yes, I would like to. It may take
about half an hour or forty-five minutes.
THE COURT: Well, let's see. How about Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, I have some questions.
Mine might not possibly take that long. If it would be
possible to come back later.
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THE COURT: Who did you nominate first as the
defendant here, Fir. Stein? The Forsyth County Board
of Commissioners? Well, I'll tell you. Let's come
back at 1:45, and you appear first, Mr. Price, and you
may ask whatever questions you wish, and then Mr.
Vanore. I mean after we come back.
MR. PRICE: If it please the Court, due to our
schedule, Mr. Ligon is scheduled to go back at 2:00,
and I have another hearing at 2:00 o ’clock. So if it's
going to begin, I would prefer at 2:00 so he won't
have a transition where I start.
THE COURT: I want to utilize our time, so I will
let Mr. Vanore go first, and he will likely carry over
until Mr. Ligon arrives, and if not, we will give him
time to get here.
MR. PRICE: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until 1:45.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above entitled case
was adjourned, to reconvene at 1:45 p.m.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Mr, Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, there are one or a few
other questions I ’d like to ask Mr. Ward.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I asked you about the
criteria used in establishing the elementary school lines.
What criteria was used in establishing the Junior and
senior high school attendance area lines?
A Generally the Junior and senior high school lines
follov, the elementary school lines and are established in
about the same way.
Q Now, was race a factor in establishing the lines?
A With one or two exceptions at the high school
level, it was not a factor. A year and a half ago, when
Paisley Senior High School was closed and the students
assigned to North and Reynolds High School, race was a
factor in establishing the lines.
Q How was it a factor? In other words, what was the
purpose of the new lines that were drawn when Paisley was
closed?
A The lines were drawn in such a manner that a sub
stantial number of Negro students would be sent to North
High School and also a substantial number to Reynolds High
School.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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<
0 Mr. Ward, the order signed by the Court earlier
thic osjc.tso \h*t\ the faculty be reassigned by the 23rd
of January, tomorrow, and not later than February 1st, so
as to achieve a ratio approximately the same race-wise as
the ratio of black and white faculty members throughout the
system. What was the ratio within the system up to this
time during the current school year?
A Approximately fifteen percent of the faculty was
working across racial lines.
Q What is the total faculty?
A About 2,100.
Q And what is the approximate number of black and
the approximate number of white teachers?
A I don't recall the number of each one. The total
was close to 300 working across the lines.
Q Do you have the exhibit that has the pupils and
faculty numbers?
THE COURT: I took the exhibits to look through
them, and my clerk has gone for them. He’ll be here in
just a moment. Now, when you say "across lines", Mr.
Ward, you mean that a teacher was teaching in a school
where his or her race was not predominant?
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: While Mr. Womble is getting to that,
what does the term I see used in decisions mean, as you
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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-741-
understand it, the term "clustering schools"? What
does that mean in an educator's language?
THE WITNESS: Clustering of schools is not a term
that has been commonly used in connection with the
desegregation of schools. I would assume that it means
using several schools in combination and a distribution
of the students throughout the total number of schools
involved in the cluster.
THE COURT: That isn't the nature of— what they
have said in the nature of pairing?
THE WITNESS: Pairing would be two, using two
schools. There are some other plans, notably the
Berkeley, California plan, that uses three. I would
assume a cluster would mean the same approach but you
would use more than three schools.
THE COURT: That is probably some of the Judiciary
terminology and not an educator's.
THE WITNESS: It hasn't been commonly used.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendants'
Exhibit 26, that shows the number of faculty and the racial
makeup of the faculty. Could you Just state what that is?
A This is a copy of the summary report made in
December.
Q What are those figures as to the faculty composi
tion?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I t shows t h a t we have 592 N eg ro , 1 O r ie n ta l , 2
Spanish-American, 1611 white, for a total of 2,206.
Q Now, what is the present status of the work to
reassign faculty as of the beginning of the second semester
of the current school year?
A Assignments have been made to staff members, or
faculty members, in the approximate ratio requested by the
Court, and the School Board is now holding hearings for
teachers who would like to raise an objection to this
transfer.
Q When you say "raise objection", do you mean indi
vidual appeals?
A Individual appeals to the transfer. The Board
hopes to conclude those hearings by Saturday, and a full
report could be made of the status perhaps by Monday.
Monday would be the first day in which the teachers would be
in their new situation, across the lines.
Q Approximately how many teachers are involved in
the transfer of teachers at this time?
A It is approximately 425 now.
Q Would they be equally divided race-wise?
A Yes, they would. It is an exchange proposition,
so there would be an equal number on each side.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, with the permission of
the Court, we would like to plan to submit to the Court
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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and put into evidence in this case the transfers when
they are finalized, and we would expect to do that
then the first of the week, on Monday.
THE COURT: I would want those with copies to
the plaintiffs.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Have you finished?
MR. WOMBLE: I think that’s all.
THE COUilT: Mr. Ward, there was a motion made
here about extending the time to file a plan from the
February 1st date yesterday. I inquire of you - and
one of the reasons was that the School Board was work
ing on many matters, as I can certainly understand,
but how many teachers have appealed to the Board for
hearing with reference to this transfer, and when are
those hearings being conducted?
THE WITNESS: The hearings were conducted on
Tuesday afternoon from 4:00 to 6:30, and from 7:30
until 12:00 o'clock on Tuesday night; again last night
from 7.30 until 11:00 o'clock. They will be continued
Friday afternoon at 3:00 o'clock, and on Saturday
morning at 9:00 o'clock. It appears now that there
might be some fifty to sixty total who will appeal.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ligon, you may examine
this witness.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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-744-
MR. LIGON: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: No, I believe in view of that, do you
mind going first, Hr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I certainly don't, Your Honor.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, referring to Defendant
School Board's Exhibit No. 18, I believe you testified
yesterday afternoon that that is the present plan of dese
gregation which was adopted by your Board for the 1969-70
school year?
A That's correct.
Q I believe you also testified yesterday that under
this plan all pupils are assigned to a school within a
specific attendance zone with the freedom of choice to
transfer to another school offering the same grade, so long
as there is capacity at that particular school?
A That's correct.
Q Who approved the adoption of the present desegre
gation plan?
A The School Board, the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
Board of Education.
0 Before the plan was adopted by the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Board of Education, was it first submitted
to either the State Board of Education or the Superintendent
of Public Instruction for approval?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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-745
A No, it was not.
Q Why was it not done, Mr. Ward?
A Because the State Board of Education and the
State Superintendent have no jurisdiction over the plan.
Q How long has the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
Board used the attendance zones as the means of assigning
the students?
A Since the school system was consolidated in 1963.
q Now, I believe you testified that from time to
time certain changes are made in the attendance zones?
A That's correct.
Q Now, who approves the changes in the attendance
zones?
A The Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education.
Q Now, prior to a change in attendance zones, do you
submit the change to - the proposed change, to either the
State Board of Education or the Superintendent of Public
Instruction?
A No, we do not.
Q I believe also that you testified that certain
requests for transfer had been approved by the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Board of Education?
A That is correct.
Q Now, the local Board of Education approves the
transfer without first seeking the advice or approval of any
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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-746-
state agency, is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Mr. Ward, if it became necessary to alter your
present method of assigning pupils, who would ordinarily
determine the method used to assign pupils within your
administrative unit?
A The Board of Education.
Q The local Board of Education?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Who has the responsibility of hiring principals
and teachers for your local school administrative unit?
A The administrative staff with the approval of the
local Board of Education.
Q Is it ncessary before a teacher or principal is
hired to gain the approval by the State Board of Education
or the Superintendent of Public Instruction?
A No, it is not.
Q Mr. Ward, who determines when a school building
is needed in your school administrative unit?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Who determines where the building will be located?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Before locating, or before picking a particular
location upon which a school building is going to be built,
do you gain the approval of either the State Board of
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S HE D R I V E
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Education or the Superintendent of Public Instruction?
A No, we do not.
G I believe you do, before a school building is
built, send plans to the State Division of School Planning,
is that correct?
A That is correct.
G I believe also that the only reason that the plans
are sent are for the approval of structural soundness of
the school building, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Turning now to school bus routes, Mr. Ward, who
has the responsibility of establishing or altering a parti
cular school bus route?
A The local administrative staff with the approval
of the Board of Education, the local Board of Education.
Q From time to time, do you counsel with anyone, the
State Department of Public Instruction, as to school bus
routes?
A Yes, we seek information from the Department of
Transportation.
Q Do they give you advice from time to time as to
where a school bus route should be located?
A Yes, they do.
Q Are you bound to follow their advice, Mr. Ward?
A No, we are not.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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-748
Q Mr. Ward, does the school system receive funds
from the State for the operation of the public schools in
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Unit?
A Yes, we do.
Q What are those funds used for?
A The bulk of the funds for teacher salaries, but
other operational costs.
Q I believe you testified earlier that your office
no longer keeps any records which show the racial composi
tion of the student body or the faculty employed by the
local school administrative unit, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And if you ever need that information, you have
to go to the individual principals to obtain that?
A That's correct.
Q Do you submit the prescribed forms to the State
Board of Education before you receive state funds?
A Yes, we do.
Q Now, would any of these forms reflect the racial
composition of either your student body or your faculty?
A No, they do not.
Q So the State Board of Education would have no way
of knowing how many black teachers you employed or white
teachers, or how many black students you had in your school
administrative unit, would they?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C.
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-749
A Not through state forms.
MR. VANORE: I don’t think I have any further
questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon, I realize you have Just
arrived. Are you ready for any questions you might have
MR. LIGON: Yes, Your honor. If it please the
Court, I only have three or four questions.
THE COURT: All right.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Ligon) Mr. Ward, along the same question
ing of Mr. Vanore, you have testified concerning the geo
graphical boundaries of the school districts. I will ask you
if the Board of County Commissioners had anything to do at
all with the establishment of those boundaries?
A No, they did not.
Q You have testified concerning the assignment of
students in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school system.
I will ask you if the Board of County Commissioners had
anything at all to do with the assignment of those students?
A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the employment of
teachers within the Forsyth County School System. I will
ask you if the Board of County Commissioners had anything at
all to do with the selection of the teachers?
A No.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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1 Q Or the assignment of the teachers?
A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the right of students
to seek reassignment, and upon seeking reassignment for the
students to be considered for reassignment. I'll ask you
if the Board of County Commissioners had anything at all to
do with this?
A No, it did not.
Q You have testified concerning the school bus
routes. I'll ask you if the Board of County Commissioners
had anything at all to do with the determination of the
school bus routes?
A No, it did not.
Q Finally, you have testified concerning the selec
tion of school sites. I'll ask you if the Board of County
Commissioners had anything at all to do with the selection
of school sites?
A No, it did not.
Q Did the Board of County Commissioners at any time
encourage and direct the Board of Education with respect to
these matters we have just covered?
A No, it did not.
MR. LIGON: That's all I have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Stein?
CROSS EXAMINATION
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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7S- /'ll
Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, do you have there a
copy of Defendants' Exhibit 26, the recent statistical
matters that were introduced?
A Yes, sir.
G Do you also have a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 27
there? That's the pupil summary?
THE COURT: Are you going to question him at
length about some of these exhibits?
MR. STEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: I would just like to see if there was
an extra copy; it would be helpful to me. He's got
to have a copy, but if you don't, it will be all right.
THE WITNESS: I believe that I have copies here
so that I could give the Court a copy.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have both?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
G (By Mr. Stein) I would like to clarify some of
the statements in Defendants' Exhibit 27, so that I am sure
that I understand what it means, and so that I am sure the
Court understands what it means. Now, it says here that
there are 49 of the 68 schools - or 67 schools - in the
system where there is some racial mix. "Some racial mix"
means there, I take it, wherever there is at least one
person, one student, of the opposite race attending, one
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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minority student attending a school where there is a majority
race of another race?
A That is correct.
Q I ask you to turn to Defendants' Exhibit 26, On
the first page we see the first school is Ardmore School,
which lists 7 Negro students, 2 Oriental students, and 586
white students. By this definition, it's a school with
some mix. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And the same is true about the Konnoak School,
where there is one Negro student and 550 white students?
A Yes.
Q And I ask you whether the Moore School on page
two, where 1 Orinetal - yes, 1 Oriental student attends
together with 458 white students. Is that included in the
schools which are mixed?
A Yes, I believe it is.
Q And the Sherwood Forest School, where there is 1
black student with 822 white students is included?
A Yes.
Q And South Fork, South Park, Speas, Union Cross,
those schools are included?
A Yes, they are.
Q Now, what about the Waughtown School, which has
2 Indians and 558 whites?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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A It is included.
Q And the Whitaker School with 7 Negroes and 608
whites?
A Yes.
Q Moving on to the junior high schools, the Dalton
School is listed as having 1 Oriental student and 829 white
students. That also is a mixed school according to the
Exhibit 27?
A I don't believe that one was included in the
exhibit. I believe it was overlooked.
Q Then the Glenn School, 3 Indians and 2 Negroes
and 768?
A Yes, that was included.
Q And the Jefferson School with 1 Negro and 815
whites?
A Yes.
Q The senior high school at Mount Tabor, Mount Tabor
Senior High School, 1 Negro and 1219 whites?
A Yes.
Q Now, directing your attention farther down
towards the middle of Defendants' Exhibit 27, it lists
32,608 whites in mixed schools with white majority. Are all
schools that we have mentioned before, that the whites
attending those schools, are included in this 32,609 figure?
A Yes, they are.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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- /b4-
Q Now, conversely - well, strike that. I'd like
to back up. Of the Carver School, that's listed on
Defendants’ Exhibit 26, under elementary schools, I think,
as having 706 Negro students, 3 white students. Is that
the figure for the elementary grades, or is that the figure
for the whole school?
A That is the figure for the elementary school,
including a kindergarten program that we have there, and
does not Include the Junior and senior high.
Q How large is the kindergarten program?
A Slightly over 200.
Q Do you know what grade those three white students
are in?
A I believe they are in the kindergarten program.
Q Now, you Just testified that there were approxi
mately 200 children in the kindergarten program at Carver.
Were all 706 of the black students at Carver included on
your Exhibit 27, where it says 360 blacks in mixed schools
with black majority?
A I believe they were.
Q So that a sixth-grade child at Carver is in a
mixed school where there are 3 white children attending
kindergarten?
A That's included that way.
Q Yes. And that, Just so that I get it in sequence,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8c A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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-755-
it is somewhat repetitious - that school, the 706 black
children at Carver are included together, are included in
the 360 figure of blacks in mixed schools with black
majority?
THE COURT: You mean the 3 fl60?
MR. STEIN: That's what I meait to say.
A I believe they're included in that figure.
Q Again, I think on direct examination, you told us
that the 1,042 in Kennedy are included in that figure
because there is one white child also attending Kennedy?
A That's correct.
Q Now, Mr. Ward, you are familiar, are you not, with
the general percentage procedure that I think HEW uses, the
courts have used in determining percent of integration?
That is, they say that 15 percent of the Negro students are
attending school with whites, or 25 or whatever it is, and
I think that it is also true that HEW does not - when the
calculation is made, they do not include the kinds of school
situations we are talking about, where there is only one or
a handful of white students in a black school. Do you have
a fairly current calculation as to the percent of the black
children in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County System who are
attending school with whites?
A No, sir, I do not.
MR. WOMBLE: Object to the form of the question.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE COURTi Mr. Womble, 1*111 going to be very
liberal about the evidence that comes in. I don’t
want something in the record—
MR. WOMBLE: The only reason for the objection
was - at least from the way the question was put -
it seemed to me that it was very unclear as to what
he was really asking. He says, "You are familiar with
what HEW and what the courts generally require." As
far as I know, there is no standard.
THE COURT: Well, you make a note of that and
I'll let you ask him some questions about it.
THE WITNESS: I do not have the answer anyhow.
MR. STEIN: It's also true that the question was
not that clear.
THE COURT: Do you think he cleared it up?
MR. STEIN: He cleared up for me. Maybe he didn't
clear it up for the Court.
Q (By Mr. Stein) I ask you to turn to the part of
Defendants' Exhibit 26, which lists faculty assignments by
race.
A I do not have a copy of that.
THE COURT: You said Defendants' 26?
A I do not have the attachment that has the faculty
on it.
THE COURT: I see. Let him use this.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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oxem; backing up somewhat, Mr. Ward.
Mr. Vanore referred to Defendants’ Exhibit 18,- which I
think you said is the most recent desegregation plan for
the local administrative unit. Is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, is there any provision in there, or is there
any Board resolution prior to that which was in effect then
or subsequent to that, which established a time table for
the desegregation of the schools, of the faculties, in
Winston-Salem?
A I do not understand your question.
Q Well, Mr. Womble, in his opening remarks, referred
to the case, the Bowman case in the Fourth Circuit which
was decided in 1967, where the court said that it was
required for school boards to establish a time table for
the desegregation of faculties so that no school would be
racially identifiable as to faculty. I am asking at what
time, if ever, the local Board took such action?
A The administrative staff had a proposal which it
was following in connection with the desegregation of staff.
We do not have a School Board policy relating to staff
desegregation.
Q Could you describe for us what the administrative
staff’s proposal was?
A The administrative staff proposal, after the
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moving of a very few people across the line the first year,
moved to five percent the second year, ten percent last
year, fifteen percent for this current year, and was to
achieve early in the seventies approximately a fifty per
cent ratio. Our plan did not go as far as the Court has
now ordered us to go.
Q Well, the fifty percent ratio, could you explain
what the fifty percent ratio would have meant if you had
reached it?
A It would have achieved at least fifty percent
of all the staff members in the predominantly Negro schools
would have been of the opposite race.
Q So that in some of the black schools, you would
have had fifty percent of one race and fifty percent of the
other?
A In all of the black schools, we would have had
at least fifty percent of the other race.
Q And when was this to have been accomplished? By
when was it proposed that this be accomplished?
A I have forgotten the exact date. It was in the
early seventies, '71 or ’72. I've forgotten what year it
was.
Q Could you say again approximately what the black-
white faculty ratio is in the system as a whole?
A It's about twenty-seven percent black.
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1 Q So that when you had reached your final stage,
you still would have had a different ratio in the black
schools from the ratio at large?
A That's correct.
Q And you would have had a different ratio in the
white schools?
A Correct.
Q And the white schools would have been more white,
in terms of faculty, than the black schools?
A That's correct.
Q The black schools would have been more black?
A That's true.
Q And this proposal, this administrative proposal,
was never adopted by the School Board, is that true?
A No, sir. It was not proposed to the School Board
for adoption, and the School Board never did adopt it as a
policy.
G When was this policy developed by the administra
tive staff?
A I don't know the exact date. It was sometime
within the last eighteen months.
Q Well, was it after June, June 10th, 1968, when
Brewer vs. Norfolk was decided by the Fourth Circuit?
A les, it was after that time. We had been moving
in this direction, but the plan which I have Just discussed
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was formulated after that time.
THE COURT: You are talking about administrative
staff members?
THE WITNESS: That is correct. The administrative
staff had made this decision, and of course we are the
group that implements a decision of that nature.
THE COURT: What was the plan that you say had
been at least thought about but was never carried
before the Board? Tell me that again.
THE WITNESS: May I have a copy of the Peabody
Report? Our plan is spelled out - I believe it has
been introduced in evidence, has it not? Do you know
what page it’s on?
MR. WOMBLE: 67, I believe.
THE COURT: I was confused when Mr. Stein said the
result of it would be that there would be more black
staff members in the predominantly black schools and
more white staff members in the predominantly white,
as I understood it.
THE WITNESS: That would be correct for this
reason. Twenty-seven percent of our staff is black,
and the other seventy-three is white. And in the black
schools, the predominantly black schools, you use
fifty percent white, then the ratio would have to be
lower than 27 percent in the remaining schools.
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1 THE COURT: I see.
THE WITNESS: On page 67 of the Peabody Report,
this gives the time table proposal which the staff was
in the process of using, and it says, "Number 1. For
the 1969-70 school year, no school faculty would have
more than 85 percent of a minority race." And this
is approximately what we had achieved for the 1969-70
school year during the stages before the Court issued
its order.
THE COURT: You had about fifteen percent?
THE WITNESS: That is about the fifteen percent
in the minority schools. So we had achieved what we
had proposed to achieve for this school year. Then
the proposal for 1970-71, "No school would have more
than seventy-five percent of a minority race." For
the 1971-72 school year, "No school would have more
than sixty-nine percent of the minority race." And
for the '72-73 school year, "No school would have more
than fifty-nine percent of the minority race." And
for the 1973-74 school year, "No school would have more
than forty-nine percent of the minority race." And
that was as far as we had proposed to go.
Q (By Mr. Stein) In making these adjustments, you
say that you moved to fifteen percent for this school year.
Was the administrative staff working on its own, or were you
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consulting informally with the Board? How were you able to
act without Board action?
A The Board had never had - over a period of years,
it had never had any policy in relation to this, concerned
with the number of people or the race employed, or had never
given any specific instruction to the staff in connection
with the assignment, but the School Board was aware of the
plan that we were following.
Q Now, you testified at some length concerning the
Board's assignment plan, which as I understand it involves
geographical zones together with a free choice of transfer?
A That's true.
Q Does your office have statistics showing the
resident population of each zone?
A No, we do not.
Q So you wouldn't know if tomorrow you said, "Every
body go back where you came from; go to the school m your
own zone," you wouldn't know whether some schools would be
over capacity and some would be under capacity?
A We do not have the exact statistics on that.
q Do you keep records as to the number of transfer
requests granted each year?
A Yes.
a Do you keep cumulative records to determine how
many students in each school were originally transferred and
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1 then reassigned to that school the following year?
A No, sir. We have not kept cumulative records.
Q Has your office attempted to determine the effect,
either positive or negative, of desegreation of the schools
of the free transfer provision contained in their assignment
plan?
A Repeat the question, please.
Q What I'm trying to determine, Mr. Ward, is whether
there are more children attending school across racial lines
because of the free transfer provision of your plan, or are
there less children attending schools across racial lines
because they transferred away from an integrated situation?
A The best we have been able to determine, for the
several years that this plan has been in effect, many more
students transfer and the desegregation has been increased
by this policy.
Q Well, are there some statistics in your office
which you could produce which would back that up, or is this
an educated hunch?
A We have had figures in the past to show. I am
not sure that we have statistical figures that actually show
this. The fact that we have not kept this information by
race for the last several years and have had to turn to
principals each year to determine this, I am not sure that
the record could be accurately shown.
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G Do you know whether or not there are white
studenta who are residing in zones of schools attended
exclusively or predominantly by blacks who have chosen to
go to other schools?
A Repeat that question, please.
Q Are there whites in your system, white students,
who live within the zone of a school which is attended
exclusively or predominantly by black children who have
chosen to leave that zone and attend a school somewhere
else?
A I think there are a few, but I’m not positive.
THE COURT: Could that information be established,
Mr. Ward, with your records?
THE WITNESS: It might be possible. I'm not sure
whether we can or not since we have not kept records
by black and white. It is rather difficult to establish
things of this nature.
THE COURT: Of course I am sure you understand
the question. The question is where you draw your
lines ungerrymandered and then the whites all transfer
out.
THE WITNESS: I will answer it this way. Over the
period of the last four or five years, a substantial
number of whites have moved out of districts. Some of
them may have transferred out, and it might be possible
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for us to obtain some information of that nature for
the Court.
THE COURT: These areas, some of them - and I
don't have the system where I can talk in terms of
schools - there are some of them, like you say, and
a couple of them, I believe you said, in a year they
changed from - we will say - from predominantly white
to predominantly black. Those then you are saying, in
the main, were because of pupil moving from those
areas?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. In the Fairview district
early in the sixties, and then later the North Ele
mentary, the Hanes and the Lowrance district. Many—
the population of these communities changed although
the districts were generally maintained, district
lines. A great many white people moved out and many
blacks moved in. It may be possible that there are
still some whites living in these districts and some
of them cransferring out under the freedom of transfer
plan - I don't think the number is large, and we might
be able to obtain that information.
THE COURT: To further display my lack of knowledge
of what has gone on here, somebody mentioned during
the plaintiffs' testimony - the gentleman that was
testifying there - something about redevelopment. Now,
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there has been some redevelopment here in Winston-
Salem. What school area is that in? To me that
means not so much people in a particular place being
moved out, but maybe tearing down old houses and
putting up new. What do you say? Tell me about
redevelopment and how that's affected it.
THE WITNESS: Generally redevelopment has
occurred in the east and the northern area of the city,
and in the course of the years we have had considerable
movement when redevelopment tearing down was occurring.
In one section of the city, many people moved to
another area of the city, and then later when redevelop
ment occurred in that, there was some movement back.
But generally when redevelopment occurred and people
moved out, most of them stayed in the area in which
they moved. Most of this has been in the eastern and
northern sections of the city, though most of it has
generally been in the Negro distrct, the ones that
have been predominant.
THE COURT: To your knowledge has there been a
redevelopment where it was predominantly white and
they had this redevelopment, and then as a result of
the redevelopment it became predominantly black? Is
that a situation that might have happened?
THE WITNESS: Yes, there is a housing project that
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is in the general area between Fairview and Lowrance
that was one time— it was one time I believe all
white. It is now predominantly Negro, and I believe
that the thirteen or twelve - how many students were
listed - in the Lowrance - the white students listed
in the Lowrance School district, are students who are
currently living in that - white students who are
apparently still living in that housing project.
THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Stein. You go ahead.
MR. STEIN: That's exactly where I was going now.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, I show you Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 21, which includes a letter to Mr. Valder from Mr.
James K. Haley, Deputy Director of the Redevelopment
Commission of Winston-Salem. The letter says, "Your letter
of December 11th requesting information about relocation
activities in Winston-Salem. Enclosed is a progress report
of all Urban Renewal activities in our city and also a city
map showing a pattern of relocation of families and indi
viduals displaced by Urban Renewal into other areas of the
city. All displacees were non-white." And the map here
shows by percentage figures of where those people - and
they were all non-white - went to after being displaced by
Urban Renewal, and there is one area that says 30 percent
of those - the figures are contained in the other attach
ment. I ask you what school district is the area which is
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1 pink on the map and says 34 percent?
A That covers approximately four elementary school
districts. Roughly it would cover Lowrance, or a portion
of Lowrance, North Elementary, Carver Crest, and Kimberly
Park.
Q And what about the green area which says 37 per
cent?
A That would generally cover the area served by
Skyland, 14th Street, Fairview and Brown.
Q And 23 percent?
A Twenty-three percent would cover a portion of the
Skyland area, a portion of the Carver district, some of
Petree, and possibly a little bit of the Walkertown district.
Q Just a final question on a line of questions which
I was asking you before. The School Board has not asked
for and your office has not developed a recent statistical
report on the effect of the free transfer plan on integra
tion?
A No, sir, it has not.
Q Now, defendants have introduced Exhibit 3, which
is a chart showing integration going back to 1957, and then
some other exhibits which show action by the School Board
on transfer requests. In response to questions from Mr.
Womble, you testified that the names checked on those exhi
bits were those black students who were allowed to transfer
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1 to white schools. Were there any black students during any
of those years who applied to go to white schools but whose
requests were denied? And I'm talking about the years 1957
through '62.
A I do not recall what the regulations were in
connection with transfer during that period, but none that
I recall that fitted the regulations the School Board used
at the time, and I do not recall what they were.
Q Well, I ask you to look at Defendants' Exhibit 5,
which is entitled "Rules and Regulations Governing Assign
ments and Change of Assignments for the Children in the
Winston-Salem School Administrative Unit, August 9, 1956."
Prior to 1963 were these rules and regulations in force?
THE COURT: Exhibit 5 you're looking at, Mr.
Stein?
MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.
A Yes, I believe these are the rules and regulations
used at that time.
Q What rule or regulation contained therein could
give a reason for the denial of a black child's request to
transfer to a white school?
A I have not read these rules and regulations, and
I could not answer the question without reading them care
fully. I do not recall what they were.
Q I ask you to look at the attachments to rules and
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regulations, which are forms, and ask you were these forms
the ones used by children requesting transfer at that time?
A Yes, sir, I believe these were the forms used at
that time.
Q Now, there is some fifteen questions calling for
information to be supplied by the parent of a child seeking
transfer, and I call your attention to question 13, which
says, "State specific reasons why child should not attend
school to which child has been assigned.” Now, did a black
child need any more reason than he simply wanted to go to a
school which blacks had previously been excluded from?
A Not to my knowledge. I was not superintendent
at this time, and did not actually do the work involved in
this. But not to my knowledge.
Q On the next page—
THE COURT: You are saying he didn't need any more
reason than that he just wanted to transfer?
THE WITNESS: No. Reasons were used. I'm not
sure that it would require a different reason for a
black or a white child to transfer.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Now, on the next page, there is a
place for signature of parents and a place for the signature
to be notarized. Do you know whether applications were
accepted where the application was not notarized?
A Not to my knowledge. We provided a notary public
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in our office at that time, and anyone could have it
notarized at no cost. So far as I know, all applications
at that time were notarized.
Q If someone mailed it in without coming to your
office, or coming to the superintendent’s office, and they
weren't notarized, do you know whether they were rejected
for that reason?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Defendants' Exhibits 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, which
show minutes of the Winston-Salem Board of Education meet
ings, and actually 12 shows a meeting of a consolidated
Board. One could determine if there were other black
children requesting transfer whose requests were not granted
by simply looking to see the schools - the name of the
school in the left column, the school from which he sought—
from which he wanted to leave, and look on the right,
school where he wanted to go, and you could tell whether
there was a child wanting to go from a black school to a
white school. Would you also then know if that were a
child - if that were a black child, or might there be some
white children in black zones trying to go to white schools?
A As I recall it, there wa3 no way to distinguish
except from the general makeup of the student body.
Q Now, before consolidation in the City of Winston-
Salem, you also had attendance zones, did you not?
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A Yes.
Q And you also had prior to 1954 schools which were
restricted to whites and schools which were restricted to
blacks. Isn't that so?
A We had general attendance zones at that time.
Q What is a general attendance zone?
A About the same type of attendance zones that we
have. It was not formal in that day, in terms of a require
ment of a written application to change from one zone to
the other.
Q Did you have lines on a map?
A I'm not sure whether there were lines on a map
at that time. There were general zones, but no strict
regulation enforcing them. There were lines generally that
determined the boundaries between one school district and
another, but no records were kept, and anyone going from one
school to the other did not have to make a formal applica
tion of any kind.
Q The general zones of the white schools and the
black schools overlapped, didn't they?
A It's possible that some of them could in those
days.
Q Was the Anderson School in the city or the county
system?
A Anderson School did not exist at that time.
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Q Was there another black school there?
A No, not at that location.
Q When was the Anderson School built?
A Sometime in the mid-fifties.
Q What about the Atkins School?
A Atkins School existed at that time.
Q How far away from the Atkins School did children
come?
A At that time, I believe all black students in the
City of Winston-Salem came to Atkins, wherever they lived.
THE COURT: This is about what year we're talking
about?
THE WITNESS: Prior to *54 was my understanding.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. STEIN: Yes, prior to '54.
Q (By Mr. Stein) When did it stop that all the
black children in Winston-Salem went to Atkins?
A When did what?
Q When were there other schools that black children
attended in the City of Winston-Salem?
A You mean at the high school level?
Q All right. For the high school level.
A I believe it was in 1957 when one black student
attended Reynolds High School, assigned by the Board.
0 And the rest of them—
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THE COURT: Before that was Atkins like Carver?
All of the grades?
THE WITNESS: That was 9, 10, 11 and 12. It was
just a high school, Atkins was. It was not 1 through
12; it was just 9, 10, 11 and 12.
THE COURT: The Negro students thoughout the
city went to Atkins?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: Was there then one elementary?
THE WITNESS: There were a number of elementaries
at that time, and there were no junior highs during
this period. But Atkins was the only high school that
Negro students attended at the high school level.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Were there some schools existing
in the City of Winston-Salem in 1954 which were then Negro
schools which still exist today?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember which ones they are?
A Atkins High School, 14th Street, Skyland, Mebane,
Brown, Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, and I believe Diggs was
built about that time. There was one other existing at
that time, Columbia Heights, which has been closed since
that time, and I believe that's all within the city.
Q Now, since 1954, has any white child ever attended
Atkins?
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A Yes.
Q When was that?
A I believe it was during the *67-68 year. I’m
not sure. It might have been *66-67. Two white students
attended Atkins High School for one year.
Q Do you know whether they were residents of the
Atkins district or not?
A They were.
Q Under the free choice of transfer provisions
which you have, have any white students chosen Atkins since
1954, chosen to attend, to transfer?
A Not on a full-time basis.
Q Now, as to the 14th Street School, have you had
any white students to attend there since 1954?
A No, we haven't.
Q And Skyland? Have there been any white students
to attend there?
A No, sir.
Q And Mebane?
A No, sir.
Q And Brown?
A No, sir.
Q And Kimberly Park?
A No.
Q Carver Crest?
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A No.
Q Diggs?
A No.
Q Now, my memory of your testimony was that the
Carver School was built to serve all of the black children
in the county. That was built before—
A 1950.
Q 1950. How many white children have attended
Carver since 1954?
A Not more than a dozen. I don’t know the exact
number, but not more than that.
THE COURT: There have been white children who
have attended Carver since 1954?
THE WITNESS: A few in the preschool program. I
do not know the exact number. We have three there this
year. Y/e had some attending there last year. I don't
believe any white students attended except in the pre
school program, and that's been less than a dozen, I
am sure.
Q (By Mr. Stein) How is it determined who parti
cipates in the preschool program that you described?
A This preschool program serves the area that is
included in the ESEA Title I Program, and only children from
this area can attend, and the white students who are there
would have lived in this district and would have had the
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privilege of attending on that basis.
Q So those twelve or so children who have attended
Carver, white children who have attended Carver, since 1954
are children who have been in a special federal-funded
program and also lived within the area served by the program'*
A That is correct.
Q No children have chosen to transfer into the
Carver School from another zone?
A Many children have chosen to, but no white child
ren.
Q No white children.
THE COURT: I assume from that that you mean many
black children have chosen to go to Carver, and you say
no white?
THE WITNESS: Many black children have, but no
white.
THE COURT: Out of which areas do they come? I
realize that you don't have records with you. Can you
answer that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Let me have my Exhibit 24 back then.
Is it 24?
MR. WOMBLE: 26, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: 26.
THE COURT: All right. From what areas generally
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-77£
have they come?
THE WITNESS: The majority of students who have
applied for Carver have been the students in the Atkins
and Paisley area. Probably the greater number have
applied at the senior high school level after the
redistricting - after the closing of Paisley Senior
High and the changing of the district, which assigned
a number of black students to North and Reynolds.
Under the freedom of transfer policy, a number of
students requested and were granted transfer to Carver.
I don't recall the statistics this year, but I believe
the first year there were approximately fifty students
who were assigned to North and Reynolds from the
Paisley area transferred to Carver at the senior high
school level. That probably boosted their enrollment
from around 200 to about 250.
THE COURT: And those were from North and Reynolds*!
THE WITNESS: From North and Reynolds, but from
the Paisley area.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Stein.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, Defendants' Exhibit 26
shows approximately— well, it shows 706 black students and
3 white students at Carver at the elementary level, and
499 in Carver in the Junior and senior high school level,
which is approximately 1200 students or so. Is that under
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or above the capacity of the Carver School?
A That's slightly under the capacity of Carver
School.
Q Do you have sufficient information to estimate
how many of those children live within the Carver zone?
A I can't be real accurate on it. The majority of
the preschool students come from outside of the Carver area.
I would estimate - and this is only an estimate - that
somewhere between 350 and 375 of the elementary students
live in the Carver district, and a rough estimate of the
Junior-senior high level would be 200 at the Junior high
and probably 180 or 190 at the senior high. This is
without having looked at any recent figures, and I may be
off.
Q Could you do it the other way? Were you making
a calculation as to how many people do not live within the
district?
A No, these are the numbers that I think do live
within the district and attend the school.
Q You said approximately 350, 200, and 180?
A I'm saying between 750 and 800 probably live
within the Carver district, and this is only an estimate.
Q How long has this preschool project been carried
on at Carver?
A This is the second year.
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Q Now, are the zones approximately the same now as
they were then?
A Yes.
Q The Carver zone?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that since the Carver zone was
initially established, the resident student population
within the zone was, considerably smaller than the capacity
of the school?
A Yes, this has been generally true since the zone
was established.
Q Was this because the Board expected a significant
number of people to transfer into Carver?
A No, it was not.
Q Why did you draw a zone around a number of studen
significantly below the capacity of the school?
A There was capacity in the districts adjoining the
Carver School district, that there was no reason to enlarge
or crowd one district or another. There was a capacity at
Petree, Walkertown, Prince Ibraham, the neighboring school.
Q Didn't you testify about a plan, an expansion
program at Walkertown?
A That was at the junior high school level.
Q And that was to accommodate some students from
some other schools, is that right?
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A Our proposal was to discontinue the small Junior
high school at Carver and the small senior high school at
Carver and move these students to another school.
Q Now, Mr. Womble asked you several times about
factors considered in drawing lines, and you said that one
time a line was drawn with racial considerations, and that
was—
A That was when Paisley Senior High School was
closed and the students were assigned to North and to
Reynolds.
Q Was the decision in drawing the lines there so
that you would have an equal distribution of black students
to these two schools?
A No. The distribution wasn't quite equal, and
actually the distribution of students to Paisley was three
ways, not two ways. Part of the students were assigned to
Atkins, part of them to Reynolds, and part of them to North.
This was related somewhat to the capacities of the buildings
at all three places.
Q I was just trying to follow up somewhat on Mr.
Womble's question and to determine— maybe you could go to
the map and show us where - how the line was drawn to
promote desegregation, by showing us where the line might
have been drawn which would have continued segregation.
A The manner in which segregation would have been
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continued would have been to continue Paisley Senior High
School, or to have drawn the line so that all of the black
students would have been assigned to Atkins. To show you on
the map how the lines could have been drawn, if Paisley had
continued, the students from Hanes and from Paisley Junior
High, these two junior highs, had been attending Paisley
Senior High. With the closing of Paisley Senior High, the
sections to the north would be assigned to North. The
section generally to the southwest was assigned to Reynolds;
to the southeast was assigned to Atkins. Now, if Paisley
had been discontinued, the lines could have been drawn so
that these students would have all been assigned to Atkins.
Q Well, if race had not been a factor, that is all
the children in all the affected schools for white, but the
decision were made to close down Paisley Senior High, do
you think that your line would have been different from the
lines which you have drawn?
A I really don't know how to answer that question.
I think possibly it would, and a larger number of the studenl
probably would have been sent to Atkins.
G Now, have there been other instances where lines
have been drawn or altered to promote desegregation?
A None that I can specifically think of at the
moment.
Q Judge Gordon asked you about a clustering of
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schools. Would you call the zones where you have two and
three elementary schools within the same zone a cluster?
A No, sir, I would not.
Q Mr. Womble asked you some questions about athle
tics. You said that Atkins and Anderson, I think, are now
members of formerly only white athletic associations. Is
that right?
A That’s correct.
Q Is Carver still a member of black athletic asso
ciations? ♦
A Yes, it is.
G Does your office have data showing the location
of all students within the system? Do you have any large
pupil locater maps, or spot maps, I think they're called?
A Not of all the students in the district. We have
locations made about a year ago, or part of them, in connec
tion with the transportation survey, but we do not h ve all
of them.
Q Were those locations made by race?
A No, sir, they were not.
G At no time during the pendency of this suit or
the Atkins suit has your office undertaken to locate students
within the system by race?
A No, sir, we have not.
Q Mr. Ward, who are your— what are the names and
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titles of your primary assistants and associates in the
administrative office?
A I have two associates, Mr. Raymond Sarbaugh and
Mr. Ned Smith.
G And what is the race of Mr. Sarbaugh?
A White.
Q And Mr. Ned Smith?
A White.
Q Do you also have some assistant superintendents?
A I have three.
Q What are their names?
A Mr. Robert Blevins—
Q And his race?
A White.
Q And who else?
A Mr. Leo Morgan.
Q Morgan?
A Yes.
Q And his race?
A White.
Q And the next?
A Mr. Eugene Johnston.
Q What's his race?
A White.
Q Have there ever been— has there ever been a black
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associate superintendent for the Winston-Salem schools?
A No, sir, there has not.
Q In this school system?
A No, sir.
Q Mr. Ward, under the present activities in re
assigning faculty members, are there any schools which are
projected to have a majority black faculty?
A No, sir.
Q Are there any schools which are projected to have
more than thirty-seven percent, or so, of black faculty?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have a copy of the resolution of the Board
where they decided to make these faculty reassignments?
A I do not have a copy with me, unless Mr. Womble
might have one perhaps.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, there's no rush, and I
would prefer to conclude the cross examination of Mr.
Ward - provided it is not going to be lengthy - but I
don't want to cut you off. If you are at a point where
we could take a recess, we will do so.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I don't think I'll be much
longer.
MR. WOMBLE: It may give us time to find what
he's asking about.
MR. STEIN: I think I would be a little quicker
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2
if I could just go through my notes one more time.
THE CJURT: All right. You may come down, Mr.
Ward. Again, those of you who are here, you may smoke
out in the hall, and someone will notify you at about
the time we will take up, and we will have a short
recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, if you will return to the
stand. Were you able to find the minutes?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have a copy here which I
think will give the information that Mr. Stein would
like to see.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Mr. Ward, Defedants' Exhibit 26
shows that there are 180 children at Children's Home, and
that they are all white. To your knowledge, has there ever
been any black children attending the school at Children's
Home?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q And the exhibit further shows where it shows the
present faculty assignments that the two black faculty
members and fifteen white faculty members at Children's
Home. Are there plans in your reassignment policies which
you are attempting to carry out now to reassign teachers at
Children's Home?
A It's included in the reassignment plan.
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Q Do you know or remember how many changes are
proposed for that school?
A No, I do not, but it would put it in about the
same percentage ratio as the other schools.
Q Now, the children, as I understand it, that go to
school at Children's Home are children that live there. Is
that true?
A That's correct.
Q So the School Board really does not have any
control over whether or not there would be black children
at that school, do they?
A No, it does not.
Q If the body that runs Children's Home should
decide not to admit black children to Children's Home, then
the school would stay white, is that true?
A I believe the policy of Children's Home now would
permit black students to live and attend Children's Home.
Q But in fact now, today at least, none do?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know approximately how many children in
the system ride school buses to school?
A In the neighborhood of seventeen thousand.
Q How many of those children are affected by the
busing case? Isn't it the Sparrow case?
A Yes. Roughly three thousand more would be
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entitled to transportation if it were granted to all persons
in the county alike, and I believe that it is estimated
that approximately five thousand might lose transportation
on March the 1st if some exception isn't made.
Q Has the local Board made any decisions as to what
it plans to do if the court does not stay the effect of its
order?
A The local Board has not made a decision in
connection with that.
Q Have there been contingency plans formulated?
A No, there have not.
Q Now, those numbers would vary if attendance lines
and assignment policies were changed, would they not?
A It could.
Q What is controlling as to whether a student is
entitled to bus transportation at state expense is the
distance he lives from the school to which he is assigned,
not the distance he lives from the closest school to his
house. Isn't that true?
A That's provided that he is attending within the
district that he lives.
Q Yes, sir. Now, you testified at some length
about attendance lines for Junior and senior high school,
and you have characterized the assignment patters for Junior
and senior high schools in this system as a feeder system,
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-78!
slightly modified in some instances. Is it not possible to
establish a feeder system without drawing specific attendant
lines for junior and senior high schools, simply to say that
children graduating from schools A, B and C go to junior
high school A, and not be concerned as to where they live,
or not be concerned to the extent of drawing lines on a map?
A I'm not sure I understand what you have in mind.
Q The Board could simply determine, could it not,
that students attending particular elementary schools, upon
graduation would go on to a particular junior high school?
A They could make that decision.
Q And that students graduating from a particular
junior high school would go on to a particular high school?
A That would be possible.
Q This in fact is done in some systems, isn’t it?
A I assume you are making a statement and not asking
me a question.
Q I said isn't it?
A I do not know.
THE COURT: What relation does your feeder system
have, Mr. Ward, to the proximity of those that feed
into the schools? We will say elementary schools
generally located, those that feed in, closer to the
junior high school than other schools, other elementary
schools?
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THE WITNESS: Generally the pattern that we
followed in this community is to have a large high
school district, which is made up of two smaller
Junior high school districts, and then the elementary
schools that are in the same general neighborhood as
the Junior high school would feed to it - a logical
pattern based upon proximity to schools.
THE COURT: And if you could transport them over,
why, you could get them from - we will say - the other
side of the central area? It is Just a case of
selecting those that are nearest to the school that
you are feeding, is that it?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
Q (By Mr. Stein) In a given high school zone in the
system, although a child might be attending a high school
closest to where he lives, it still might be some distance.
Is that not true?
A That is true.
Q And even within the City of Winston-Salem, a
student could be some distance from the high school he
attends?
A Yes, he could live several miles and live in the
system.
Q There has been some mention of on-going study of a
plan for integration of the schools which apparently is not
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1 ready now for presentation. When was it first proposed by
the School Board that such a study would be made?
A I'm sorry, I do not recall the date.
Q Do you remember the year?
A The first discussion, I believe, was a little more
than a year ago.
Q Was that prior to the decision to have the survey
report which has been introduced as Defendants' Exhibit 23?
A There was some discussion prior to the decision
of that report.
Q Was any Board action taken prior to the decision
to have this study made? Was there a Board decision as to
a study to develop a plan for the desegregation of the
schools?
A I do not recall any. There was considerable dis
cussion, but I do not recall any Board action in connection
with it. There might have been; there was considerable
discussion.
Q Approximately how many mobile units are located
within the system?
A Eighty-nine.
THE COURT: Are those in use; Mr. Ward?
THE WITNESS: All of them are in use.
MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
THE’ COURT: Anything on redirect, Mr. Womble?
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MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, Exhibit 26 shows that
the enrollment, the pupil enrollment at Atkins is 1135
Negro and no white. Are there any special classes at
Atkins that are attended by whites?
A We have some vocational education classes there,
and I believe there are approximately ten white students
attending on a partial basis these clases.
Q What area does the vocational education program
at Atkins serve?
A It serves the entire community in the field of
auto mechanics, brick laying, painting, and things of that
nature.
Q Mr. Stein asked you about the membership of Carver
in a black athletic association. Who determines what
athletic association a school joins?
A The principal of the school would determine that,
and if he wanted to change from one to another, would apply
to the association that he would want to get into, and our
administrative staff would try to help him get into the
association that he wished to belong.
Q Do you know why Carver has not changed or switched
to another association, has not applied to another asso
ciation, or has it applied?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I don’t believe it has, and I think possibly the
reason is because of its small size and the constant
feeling that Carver might be closed in the near future. I
believe Anderson, under the same consideration, waited one
year longer before it applied to the 3-A and then decided
to go on with our encouragement to apply to get into the
3-A association.
Q Mr. Stein asked you about your associates, Mr.
Sarbaugh and Mr. Smith, and about your assistant super
intendents Mr. Blevins and Mr. Morgan, and Mr. Johnston,
and you testified that each of those persons is white. How
long have they held the positions they have now?
A All five of these individuals have held these
positions since the consolidation of the school system in
1963.
Q During that period of time, has there been any
increase in your table of organization for those positions?
A Not at that level.
Q Have there been any openings for any of those
positions since consolidation of the city and county school
systems?
A No, there have been no openings.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT
Q Mr. Ward, the complaint alleges that the defend
ants, the State Board of Education and Dr. Carroll - of
course, that’s been changed to Dr, Phillips automatically—
Now, the County Board of Commissioners, I don’t recall
exactly, but it is in the main while they don't, you know,
run the schools, they still have considerable influence on
what the Board does, like the matter of roads to schools,
like where the school buildings are constructed, and money
for teachers and so forth. Have those defendants, or any
of them, brought any kind of pressure or given you any kind
of information, to your knowledge, that was along the line
of insisting or promoting a racial system in this county?
Do you know anything about that?
A No, sir, they have not.
Q You say building construction, that you send that
in to the State and ask them if they have— do they have
a committee?
A They have the responsibility to approve these
buildings from the standpoint of safety, whether the con
struction is adequate from a strain standpoint, the types
of boilers, whether the boilers and things of that nature
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are safe.
Q How long ago has it been since you built the
buildings in this system relative to schools?
A We completed the last one a little over a year
ago.
Q Which one was that?
j. x
A Jefferson Junior High was one of the last ones
completed.
Q You submitted the plans there?
A We submitted the plans as we have all the others
through the years to the State Board of Education so that
they could have their experts determine whether the building
was sound, safe, and so forth.
Q Was that submission handled through your office?
A Yes, it is.
Q To your knowledge were any questions asked about
the makeup of the attendance, or the makeup of the faculty
of that unit, with reference to the race, whether it would
be in the majority black or white, or anything else about
race, anything to your knowledge?
A No question has come up in connection with race
to my knowledge in the construction of new buildings in this
school system.
Q When you take your budget over to the Commissioners
each year—
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A That's correct.
Q Is that a line item budget?
A A line item budget.
Q Do you always take that?
A I'm present when it's taken, yes, sir.
Q You usually take two, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You leave the high one with them?
A That's right, and wind up, of course, with the low
one.
Q Have the Commissioners - your last budget or past
budgets - have they gone into the matter— or the County
Manager or the County Attorney or any of them, ever dis
cussed with you the matter of where any funds that were
being expended for capital improvements were going to be
spent, or any inquiries about the racial aspect? Has that
been done to your knowledge?
A No, sir, nothing has come up in connection with
race, in connection with that. In the last budget that was
approved by the County Commissioners, the Commissioners did
specify that capital funds in the amount of roughly $700,000
would be used for an elementary school in the northwest
section of the community. It didn't spell out any specific
area; it merely said northwest section. That is the only
reference that they have ever made to the location of schools,
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Q There is something about roads, now, every once
in a while, that the District Superintendent will come by
about roads to be built. Does he visit you about that?
A No, he does not.
THE COURT: Anything further, gentlemen, of Mr.
Ward? Mr. Stein?
MR. STEIN: Just a few questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Stein) All teachers hired, employed by
the School Board, have to be certified by the State, isn't
that true?
A The State establishes a certification procedure
and certifies teachers. We may select any teachers we want,
and they do not control our selection by that method.
Q You can't hire someone who is not certified?
A No, but we can hire somebody with different grades
of certification.
Q But it is unlawful for the Board to hire someone
who does not have a state certificate?
A I'm not sure whether the law reads that way or
not.
Q At the invitation of the local Board, the State
came in a few years ago and conducted a survey of this
system, didn't they?
A Yes.
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-798-
Q And they made certain recommendations concerning
organization and school facilities and so forth?
A It made some recommendations in connection with
the school facilities. I don't recall any recommendations
concerning organization.
Q What percentage of your budget is supplied by the
State?
A I can't tell you at the moment. I think current
operations some sixty-five percent probably.
Q Now, do you know whether or not the State
Superintendent, Dr. Phillips, has established within the
last year or so an office of an Assistant Superintendent
for Human Relations, or some title similar to that?
A Yes, he has.
Q Do you know whether or not he assumes some
responsibility for advising and consulting with school
boards and school administrations around the state to assist
them in matters of school desegregation?
A Repeat the statement, please.
Q Do you know whether or not the responsibilities of
this assistant superintendent are to assist local units to -
advise and assist in matters pertaining to school desegrega
tion?
A I know that it is supposed to be in the field of
human relations. I do not know to what degree that it affects
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this
Q Has your office consulted with Mr. Phillips or
any of his assistant superintendents or any members of his
staff concerning any matters relating to school desegrega
tion in Winston-Salem?
A We may have discussed some matters with some
members of the staff.
Q Has Dr. Phillips initiated any conversation, dis
cussions with your office or with the Board or members of
the Board, if you know, concerning desegregation plans for
this system?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Where does the money come to operate the buses
which carry some seventeen thousand students to school in
the county?
A Most of the money for the current operation comes
from the State.
Q Are there people in the State Superintendent's
staff who provide assistance as to site selection for
schools?
A There are some who will if we ask for it.
Q Have you in this system asked for their assistance
in the last several years?
A Not recently.
Q In establishing bus routes, are the people in the
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State Superintendent's office - is there somebody who comes
and makes on the spot reviews of the bus route proposed by
the local Board?
A They will review it and discuss it with us if we
request it.
Q Well, have you requested such a review in the last
several years?
A Not a total review. We have asked for some
assistance in certain cases.
Q 1 think you testified in response to a question
from the Court that the budget submitted to the Board of
County Commissioners is a line item budget. Is that true?
A That's correct.
Q Do the Commissioners ever question any particular
items listed on the budget?
A Yes, they sometimes do.
Q Do they ever make decisions as between several
items, that is to say they authorize expenditures for line
items 1, 2, 3 and 4, but not for 6, but for 7 and 8?
A No, sir, it has not been their custom since 1963
to do that.
Q Well, do you automatically get the amount of
money you request?
A No, sir, we do not. But if they give us less
than the amount of money we request, they allow us to
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recommend the items which are cut.
q But you did say that the last time that they
specified that a certain capital expenditure would be made,
an elementary school in the northwest portion?
A This is the only restriction I recall the County
Commissioners ever putting on.
MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
MR. WOMBLE: No further questions.
MR. VANORE: I have one or two questions.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe Mr. Stein asked you
whether or not the State had conducted recently a survey of
your schools, and I believe that you said that they had?
A Yes.
Q And that they had made certain recommendations as
far as school facilities were concerned. If you know, are
you under any legal obligation to follow any of the
recommendations made by this survey team?
A I know that we are not.
Q I believe that Mr. Stein also asked whether or not
you had received any assistance in establishing bus routes
from the State Superintendent's office. I believe you said
you had on occasion received assistance. If you know, are
you under any legal obligation to follow the recommendations
made as to particular bus routes?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
WINSTON SALEM. N C.
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A No, we are not.
MR. VANORE: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. You may come down,
(Witness excused.)
WHEREUPON,
RAYMOND SARBAUGH
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
(By Mr. Garrou) State your name, please.
Raymond Sarbaugh.
Where do you live?
447 Dartmouth Road, Winston-Salem.
Where do you work in Winston-Salem?
I'm associate superintendent for instruction in
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth Schools.
Q How long have you held that position?
A Since 1963.
Q What did you do before that?
A Before that I was associated with what was
formerly the Forsyth County System.
Q How long were you with the Forsyth County System?
A I came here as a teacher in 1949, and have been
with the system since that time.
Q When were you made an associate superintendent of
the Forsyth County System?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
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1 A I was assistant superintendent of the Forsyth
system - there was no associate position prior to consolida
tion, effective in I960, from I960 to 1963.
Q How long were you a teacher?
A I was a teacher, a classroom teacher exclusively
for only two years.
Q Were you a principal?
A No, I never was a principal. I've been everything
but that. Following the two years in classroom teaching,
I served as an assistant principal, as a guidance counselor,
as the director of guidance services for the county system,
as its personnel director, and then as assistant superinten
dent.
Q In your position as associate superintendent, I
believe you said in charge of instruction?
A Yes, sir.
Q What areas of the system are you responsible for?
A I am responsible for overall direction of every
thing that has to do with teaching and learning, classroom
instruction, what we teach, how it's taught, and the
materials and equipment we use to teach it.
Q Who are the assistant superintendents that report
to you?
A There is one assistant superintendent who reports
to me - that's Mr. Blevins.
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Q What are M s duties?
A He works at my direction, but generally in the
area of the elementary and secondary curriculum.
Q Now, our system participates in some federal
funded programs, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q I show you this document that has been marked as
Defendants’ Exhibit 32, marked for identification, and I
ask you what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' ExMbit No. 32
for identification.)
A This is a summary of the defiMtion of Title I of
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and a descrip
tion of special programs which are provided for students
in some schools that are not provided for the general school
population.
Q So that is a summary of all programs that you have,
whether Title I or otherwise, that are not applicable to the
system-wide, is that correct?
A It's a summary of most of them, but not necessarily
all, but most.
Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, describe please, Title I of
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.
A Title I of the Elementary and Secondary Education
Act is a program which provides financial assistance to
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local school districts to enable them to provide special
programs and services for eligible children. In order to
be eligible for participation in one of these programs, a
child must live in an area which has a higher concentration
of poverty than the average of the school district at large.
Q Let’s stop there for a second.
A That is generally—
Q Now, when you say a higher concentration of
poverty than the average, what do you mean by that? How
is that determined?
A At the institution of this program in - I believe -
1965, one of the requirements for participation was that
each school district conduct a local survey, an income
survey, by population areas and by census tracts and arrive
at the number of families whose income at that time, I
believe, was less than $2,000.00 per year. Since then, the
base figure has been increased to, I believe, $3,000.00, and
after identification of the number of such families, the
mathematical computation was determined to arrive at a
system-wide or county-wide average of poverty concentration.
Q Now, this is a program that is administered -
strike that. The eligibility for the program is determined
by individuals rather than schools, isn’t that correct?
A The eligibility for the program is determined by
where the child lives. To be eligible, he must live in an
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area where the poverty concentration exceeds the county
average.
Q Is there any requirement that the family income
of a particular child fall under this average figure?
A If a child lives in the area-r-
Q He's eligible?
A He’s eligible. Yes, he’s eligible if he lives in
an area. There is still a further qualification for
eligibility, and that is that he needs special help. He's
not eligible unless he needs the special help.
Q How is it determined whether or not he needs
special help?
A This is determined by identification of his
achievement and his aptitudes and abilities, and is deter
mined by what appears to be his need for the program that
has been identified as the program we want to provide.
Q Are there tests administered to determine the
child's needs?
A There are no tests administered specifically to
identify these children, except in connection with our
preschool program. But there are tests administered in the
school system routinely to all students at certain levels,
and these are used in connection with this program. Teacher
assessment and other personal data and observation is also
utilized.
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Q Now, approximately how much money is spent on
Title I programs in the system, if you know?
A This amount varies somewhat from year to year,
but in the past year our appropriation for Title I was
something over $863,000.00.
THE COURT: Are you talking about on a fiscal
year basis, calendar year? When you say past year—
THE WITNESS: For the 1968—69 school year.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, I show you a document that
has been marked for identification as Defendants’ Exhibit 33
and I ask you what that is.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 33
for identification.)
A This is a listing of schools in which programs
under Title I of ESEA are offered, schools in which these
programs are provided, and data concerning the number of
students participating in the program.
Q Now, was this Defendants' 33 prepared by your
office?
A Yes, it was.
Q Under your supervision?
A Yes.
Q And was Defendants' Exhibit 32 also prepared by
your office?
A Yes.
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Q Under your supervision?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you have a figure for the per-pupil
expenditure, Title I?
A I have a figure which is based upon the total
number of students participating in Title I activities of
one kind or another, and that would be an average expendi
ture of $306.00 per pupil during fiscal *68-69.
Q Now, you said that that is the figure for the
total number of pupils. Would it be true that there would
be a great number of students who had quite a bit less than
this figure?
A That would be true.
Q In other words, explain for the Court what varia
tions this per-pupil expenditure would include.
A Some of the activities— I can best explain by
looking at page 2 of this last exhibit, I think. On page 2
of this exhibit - I'm just picking the Fairview School,
which is the first school listed, to illustrate. 131
children are shown as participating in the art program there.
Right above that, 20 children are shown as participating in
the open highways first program. The per-pupil cost, and
those children in the open highways program are included in
the children in the art program, so that for those 20
children the per-pupil cost is much greater, because they
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are involved in many programs. Some of the children in the
131 are involved in the art program only, so the per-pupil
cost would be much less.
THE COURT: Is this a preschool program in its
entirety?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: This is just part of it?
THE WITNESS: The preschool program is one which
Mr. Ward testified to at Carver School, but it serves
children from all of these districts. And that's just
one part of this program.
THE COURT: I see.
MR. GARROU: I was getting ready to go into that,
Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) On page 1 of Defendants' 32, the
first item listed is the preschool program. Now, is that a
Title I program?
A There are two preschool programs, as we identify
them. One of them is a Title I program; the other is
financed by federal funds but from another source.
Q Would you describe both of these programs, please?
A The first of these is a program which is financed
with Title I of Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and
is operated in the Carver School. It is a year-around, or
regular school year program, a nine-month program. It
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serves only children who live in that eligible area for
Title I services as determined by poverty concentration,
and they are given a kindergarten or readiness program for
a 180-day period.
Q Now, what is "Head-Start”?
A "Head-Start" is somewhat similar to the preschool
program. Its purposes are essentially the same. It is
conducted in our system only in the summertime for a two-
month period. It serves the same areas which are served by
the Title I preschool program and some additional areas as
well.
q So that the cost of operating "Head-Start"— would
the cost of operating "Head-Start" be included in this
$830,000-some figure?
A No, it would not be included in that.
Q Now, what is "Project Read"?
A "Project Read" is for our system a new program
this year. It is a special individualized reading program.
It is for children in the elementary grades. In this
program, the children are provided with specialized material,
what we refer to as programmed textbooks, programmed
material, and its purpose is to help them strengthen their
reading skill and learn to read at their own pace.
Q What is programmed material? Would you describe
that?
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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A Yes, sir, I'll try. It is a workbook type of
material, and it is organized in question form where each
question covers only a very small matter, a small item, and
the student is given the question visually, and he then
responds to answer that question, and usually his answer
is a one-word or a marking answer from a series of multiple
choice possibilities. And then in the workbook material,
covered up, is the answer to that question, and after he
has responded he is able to move his marker down and see
the correct answer and determine whether his response is
correct. If so, he goes on to the next question. And the
questions are highly structured arid they are presented in
a very systematic fashion, to present drill and repetition
and reinforcement.
Q Now, what role does the teacher-aid have in this
process?
A Because of the individual nature of this type of
program, the teacher may have in her classroom twenty-five
children - they are working in these workbooks, each one,
each student, at his own rate, and most likely each student
is at a different place. This is quite different from the
more traditional type of classroom instruction, where
everybody is on the same page, and at the same place. So
the teacher is more a coordinator of activities, a resource
person, and she has considerable difficulty in reaching each
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of these children on an individual basis as they need her.
And so during this time, when this special reading program
is in operation, we provide the teacher with a teacher-
aid who assists her in supervising the work of the children
as they proceed through this programmed material, and it
may involve checking to see that they are responding
properly in their workbook. It may be listening to them
read when they have completed an exercise. It may be
answering a question, and that kind of thing.
Q Now, this is the Title I program?
A Yes.
Q Let's go back to "Head-Start". You testified
that "Head-Start" was not a Title I program and funds did
not come out of Title I funds?
A "Head-Start" is financed with funds from the
Office of Economic Opportunity, and those funds are pro
vided directly to the Experiment in Self-Reliance in this
community, and they subcontract their "Head-Start" program,
part of it, to the public school system and part to some
other community agencies.
Q What is the "Open Highway" program?
A This is agin a reading program, and we define it
as the "Open Highways" program simply for identification
purposes, and because "Open Highways" happens to be the
title of the series of textbooks which is the basis for the
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program. In fact, it is a special program of instruction
designed for disadvantaged children who bring a rather
limited background of experience to the classroom.
Q How is it administered?
A Each of the schools in which this program operates
has a first-grade class identified as the "Open Highways"
class, and there are twenty children in the class. And I
need to go back to ’68 and '69 to clarify it. In ’68-69,
these twenty children were participating in the preschool
program which I have already referred to, and they were from
a given district, and they were grouped together for
instruction in a class in the preschool program. In this
current school year, those children entered the first grade
back in their neighborhood elementary school, and they have
been generally kept together as a unit in first grade, and
in this program we attempt to strengthen the reading skills
and their inadequacies in spoken language, and to improve
their communication skills. The teacher has in addition to
the "Open Highways" series of books a great deal of other
material, and also has the services of a full-time teacher-
aid.
Q How many pupils do you have participating in the
"Open Highways" program now?
A We have something over two hundred, approximately
the same number as are participating in the preschool
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program. One group of twenty or so children in each of the
eleven Title I schools.
Q I believe you testified that the twenty children
in each group are kept together throughout their elementary
career, is that right?
A Well, so far, we haven't carried a group beyond
this point yet. We only initiated this program in '68-69.
So the group of children involved are now in the first grade,
It will be our intention to continue to keep them together
as a unit in 1970-71.
Q Now, would you describe the art education under
the Title I program? Before that, the "Open Highways'' is
a Title I program, is it?
A Yes, it is. The art education program involves—
it proviles special art teachers at the elementary school
level and in these Title I area schools, and there are three
of these teachers. And except for them, the school system
provides no special art teachers at the elementary level
in other schools. All instruction in art education is
conducted by the regular classroom teacher. One of the
three works full-time at the preschool program at Carver
with the 220-odd children who are there. The other two
work in the eleven Title I elementary schools, and they
work directly with children in the first grades with
emphasis on the "Open Highways" classes, and in some second
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grades actually, providing direct instruction to the
children on a scheduled basis, and then time permitting,
they provide instruction for other groups of children, and
consultative service to all teachers in the school.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I interrupt because I
just don’t see how this whole line of testimony is
connected to the issue before the Court.
THE COURT: What is the connection, Mr. Garrou?
I presume that ultimately you are going to get to
showing that this program is one wherein the races
were mixed up, which seems to be - you know - before us
here. Tell me about it.
1®. GARROU: That’s one thing, Your Honor, and
what we intend to show is that these programs are being
administered in schools that are predominantly black,
and that these are special benefits that these schools
have and that the other schools don't have.
MR. WOMBLE: There is also the aspect of it, Your
Honor, that these are programs that are especially
sponsored with federal grants by the federal government
for the purpose of providing compensatory educational
programs for children who are economically deprived,
and with that, educationally below the standards that
you normally find throughout the system, and that the
government must have known - as is shown through the
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- 8
testimony that has already gone into evidence about
census tracts - that it is true in many, many situations
throughout the country as well as here - obviously
they wouldn’t set up their census tracts as they do -
that persons who are educationally or economically at
the lower end of the scale will be more likely to be
neighbors of each other than to be scattered through
out the community among the population generally.
And then we are talking here about programs that
provide better than $300.00 extra per person, where
the total public expenditure for a year in the public
school system will amount to maybe $500.00 or so. So
that you are expending better than fifty percent extra
per child through federal expenditure to provide these
compensatory educational programs. You can economicall)
provide these programs only - I say economically, they
are expensive enough as it is, but even with these
appropriations, you can really make an impact only if
the children who are receiving the benefits of these
special programs are available in groups large enough
for it to make sense for special teachers, additional
teachers, to be provided to furnish the programs. And
so where these programs are being provided, they are
undertaking to uplift the opportunities, the exposures,
the learning process, for these children in a manner
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that could not be achieved if these children were
picked up from their neighborhoods and scattered
throughout the system on some arbitrary basis. And it
seems to us that when we are talking about the
neighborhood concept, the idea of a school board
acting in good faith, in a logical way, in an appro
priate and lawful way, to bring the best education
possible to the greatest number of children, that it
is relevant for the record in this case to show that
not only are the geographic attendance zone lines
drawn in a normal logical way without attempting to
put the children of one race in separate schools from
children of another race, but that where the natural
result of the neighborhood approach does bring together
in certain schools - in this case, I believe Mr. Sar-
baugh has testified there are eleven schools involved -
these children who can be materially helped by this
kind of program, that the School Board should be
recognized as not only operating lawfully but commend-
ably, when it takes advantage of these opportunities
to provide these additional uplifting programs for
those children, and that the Court again should be
very slow to do that which would destroy the good thing
that is being done through the use of these programs.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I fm trying to find how
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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much more we've got to do here. How many more witnesses
will you have? You may come down for now, Mr. Sarbaugh
MR. WOMBLE: At the moment, Your Honor, it looks
like we will have probably two other witnesses, and
time-wise, I'm not sure how much longer it will take
to complete the examination of Mr. Sarbaugh, but the
other two witnesses - actually there is a third one
that we would like to use who will be out of town
tomorrow. We may or may not feel that we really need
to use him, depending upon whether the materials we
expect - the evidence which we expect to put in through
the first two will cover it. I would think that we
could certainly complete with those two persons and
Mr. Sarbaugh tomorrow.
THE COURT: I am hoping we can finish tomorrow.
As Mr. Stein knows, I have a matter that he is involved
in that I have been requested to get into on Monday.
MR. WOMBLE: I might say this, Your Honor. When
I say this will complete it tomorrow, there is one
other thing that we would ask the Court to do that we
think would be almost essential in order for the
evidence that has already been introduced to be put
into perspective and to have the significance that it
needs to have in order for the Court's decision in this
matter to be the kind of decision that I am sure the
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Court would want, and that is that we would ask the
Court to view the schools in the system, with the maps,
and an opportunity to examine on the ground the
boundaries, the areas that are served by the various
schools, so that there can be a factual determination
as to whether or not the maps and the testimony show
these to be the fair lines that we say they are. The
difficulty with the map is, as Your Honor fully
appreciates, any map looks gerrymandered unless you
make just upon a grid pattern, and it is easy to call
something gerrymandered. But when you go into the
area and examine it, then and only then can a real
determination be made as to whether statements that
are made are supported by facts.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know how much of that
I'll be able to do. I haven't said anything about
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this, and so forth. You lawyers maybe should know
Judge Stanly has been ill; he has been in bed for
about a couple weeks. I don't know how long he'll be
out. He's a little reluctant about it. I've been
trying to take care of the emergency matters, and I am
doing the best I can. As you know, we held court the
other Saturday, and so forth. I don't know how much
of that I can do. I have got to give this case some
attention, and we have over thirty civil rights cases
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1 on my calendar here, and you lawyers know what is
2 involved in that. There are only so many hours, and
3 I must give any case whatever time is necessary to the
4 point that I feel like I have become knowledgeable
5 enough about it to make a decision about it. Of course,
6 I can't devote my life to one case, and I know this
7
•
matter is a matter of much concern on the part of many
8 parents, black and white, and often the views here are
9 not the views of the parents in this.
10 I have a telegram here - I don't much like that
11 sort of thing - there's nothing caustic about it - but
12 expressing views. I get letters and I get telephone
13 conversations. I don't talk about the merits of the
14 matters, but it is pretty hard to say to someone
15 simply, "I'm not going to talk to you about it." And
16 it is from both races. And what I hear here isn't
17 always what their opinion is about it. But I have got
18 to decide it on what is here. If I do go and look at
19 any of those areas, Mr. Womble, I would want to on my
•
own select whatever limited number of areas I felt like
21 time permitted, unless you and Mr. Stein could agree.
22 I think maybe it might be suspect if your Board or you
23 or Mr. Garrou selected one - I'm not indicating that
24 you would do so improperly - I just think that maybe
25 it would show an impartiality if I looked at it and
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selected some. I will make a ruling on that tomorrow,
and see how far we get along and how much time we have.
Mr. Stein, you had something that you were going
to say?
MR. STEIN: I was going to say that I really dicin'i
feel it would be necessary for the Court to inspect
schools and zones, and there are 68 schools here and
zones go around them. Our position is — not at least
for the purpose of this motion for preliminary relief
that we seek, it's not that the lines are irrationally
drawn. The purpose of this motion, we would concede
that they are rationally drawn. Our position is that
testimony of the Superintendent that race was not a
factor is sufficient to require them to redraw their
lines, because we read the cases that race must be a
factor in disestablishing a system. It must be a
factor where the statistical showing shows that we
have remaining all black and all white schools, where
here every single school that was black in ’ 54 remains
black today. We really think it would be a waste of
the Court’s time and irrelevant to the case for the
Court to go around and see if the line appears to be
rational or not. We frankly have not put on any evi
dence or pressed strenuously here about gerrymandering,
because we don’t think that’s an item.
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THE COURT: Would you stipulate that there has
been no gerrymandering in this? I had the feeling—
while we're talking about preliminary injunction here,
I have a feeling that this case is being heard on its
merits, but I understand it's on a preliminary injunc
tion.
MR. STEIN: I would be very reluctant to stipu
late anything like that. I would stipulate that we
have offered no proof that there has been gerrymander
ing.
THE COURT: Your position simply is, Mr. Stein,
that there are still schools in which only one race is,
and by that factor alone the result follows that there
should be a new plan?
MR. STEIN: That's true. That's our position.
THE COURT: Mr. Garrou, in the morning, hopefully
with Dr. Sarbaugh - I can see some relevance about it,
but it seems to me that we might shorten that con
siderably, that much of the detail would not be neces
sary, and I will allow you to proceed along that line.
Anything else that we should take care of before
we recess?
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I have one matter. We
listed as a witness the first time, and I informed the
Court when we began, that we thought that we would
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probably want to call an educational expert in rebuttal
and Dr. Larson from Rhode Island is here and has been
here for a couple of days, and he has taken the oppor
tunity to further study the system. But I would very
much like to be able to offer his testimony tomorrow,
even if it's out of order, since he's from out of
town.
THE COURT: Well, if this goes into next week -
I want to hear the case that you made the motion in,
and I intend to hear that on Monday, the first thing.
But I can change my schedule around as soon as that is
over, but if he is here—
MR. STEIN: I spoke with Mr. Womble.
THE COURT: If he’s here and out of state—
MR. WOMBLE: I told him we would accommodate him.
THE COURT: We will put him on tomorrow so he
won't be here over the weekend. I imagine you people
will want to present some oral argument, and not many
lawyers can get through in a case like this— I want
to continue with the oral argument right on in after
we have concluded the evidence in it. But right now
I think I will be tentatively trying to change my
schedule so that a day next week - and hopefully that
we can get through with it tomorrow. Let's take a
recess until in the morning at 9:30.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was, adjourned, to-reconvene-at 9*50 a.m. January 23, 1970.)—
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: I had a call from Mr, Vanore - I
guess it was about 8:30 here this morning - ana he was
having trouble. He said he had to return to Raleigh on
some matters last evening, and he was having some trouble
over in the vicinity of Burlington, and I told him that we
would wait until 10:00 o ’clock, and then I felt that we
should continue.
Now, reference to Mr. Stein’s further testimony,
have you people come to some agreement about that?
MR. W0MBLE: Yes, sir, we have discussed that,
and in order to make sure that Dr. Larsen might not be
delayed in returning, it is agreed that he would go on the
stand first this morning.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. STEIN: We therefore call Dr. Larsen to be
sworn.
THu, COURT: Mr. Erlacher, will you make particular
note on your record where we start with this testimony, so
that when Mr. Vanore gets here that he might want that read
back to him during some recess, and if you'll make a note
as to where he comes in, you will know where to stop with
him. All right.
WHEREUPON,
JACK L. LARSEN
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, please state your
full name.
A Jack L. Larsen.
Q Where do you live?
A I live at 73 Canonicus Trail, East Greenwich,
Rhode Island.
Q Where are you employed?
A Rhode Island College,
Q What is your position at Rhode Island College?
A I’m a professor of educational administration
and chairman of the Department of Educational Administra
tion and Supervision.
Q Could you please give us a summary of your own
educational background?
A Yes, sir. I am a native of Iowa. I have my
baccalaureate degree in English from the University of
Northern Iowa, my Master of Arts degree in American Studies
from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in educational
administration from the University of Michigan.
Q Could you now give us a summary of your employ
ment experience since you graduated from college?
A From 1947 until 1956, I was a teacher of high
school English, social science, at Park High School in
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you like some accounting of these?
Q Well, yes, could you briefly describe your work
in New England?
A Yes. I headed a team two years ago that did a
study for the Providence Public School System that resulted
in its reorganization. On my part, the study was largely
in the secondary area. I have served as an educational
consultant with the Department of Justice, the Civil Rights
Division, U. S. Government.
Q Is that in connection with school desegregation?
A School desegregation, yes. This was a school
desegregation case in Bertie County, North Carolina. I
have served as an educational consultant with the Legal
Defense and Educational Fund, Inc, on several school cases
in North Carolina, one in Alabama, and two in Virginia.
I'd be happy to detail some of those if you wish.
Q Could you list the school systems involved in
the work that you've done in North Carolina?
A Yes. I worked on several county school systems,
for instance Pitt County, Johnston County, Beaufort County,
Edenton, Chowan County, Washington City case, most recently
Durham County, a Charlotte-Mecklenberg School System, and
in Virginia most recently the Norfolk, Virginia, School
System, and just before that the Portsmouth, Virginia,
School System. Earlier this year I did advise on the State
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Training School System of Alabama.
Q Did you have occasion to do any work in connection
with Concord City School System?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you mean here in North Carolina?
MR. STEIN: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, have you served or
are you presently serving on any committees of governmental
or quasi-govemmental nature?
A Yes, sir. In Rhode Island I am a member of the
Governor's Advisory Committee on training schools and
correctional institutions in the state. I am on the
Governor's Advisory Task Force for Equal Educational
Opportunities for the State of Rhode Island. I am a con
sultant to the Title I office of the Educational Secondary
and Elementary Act in Rhode Island, and was this fall an
evaluator of innovative programs submitted under Title III
of ESEA.
Q Is that also in Rhode Island?
A Rhode Island, yes, sir. I might mention that I
have been asked by the Newport, RHode Island, Board of
Education and the State Department of Education to do a
reorganization study of the Newport public schools.
Q Is that study for the purpose of reorganizational—
reorganizing a system to accomplish desegregation, or is it
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1 a general study, or both?
A One of its purposes is desegregation. It has
several purposes.
Q Dr. I.arsen, have you had occasion to examine the
answers to interrogatories filed by the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Board of Education in this case?
A Yes, sir, I have looked at that data.
Q Have you had an opportunity to examine the maps
Included in those answers to interrogatories?
A Yes, sir, a map similar to the one on the easel.
Q Have you had an opportunity to familiarize your
self to any extent of physical layout of the school district
here?
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A Yes, sir. I have toured the district and looked
at the schools from the outside and the surrounding areas.
Q How much time have you spent in Winston-Salem,
Forsyth County?
A I was here for two days two weeks ago, and then
j.ast week I went to Charlotte and examined more of the data
I!
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t-te.r-e ^ ~--£ offices of Mr. Chambers and yourcerf, and I
returned to Winston-Salem Wednesday afternoon this ween.
Q Have you been here since then?
A Yes, sir.
w four study of the system here, what have you
attempted to find out and what have you attempted to do?
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A I attempted to get a picture of the system in
my study of the data, to discover what the enrollment
patterns are in each of the schools of the system, what
evidences there are of overcrowding in the schools, what
evidences there are of enrollment undercrowding, you might
say, the relationships of schools to each other, the ways
in which the elementary schools are fed into the junior
high schools, and the senior high schools, the present
attendance areas, and this type of thing. I have been
trying to - by working with it, to get a picture of it so
that I can comment at least intelligently about it.
Q Have you analyzed the figures supplied by the
local Board of Education which show the attendance at each
of the schools by race?
A Yes, sir. That was one of the exhibits in the
answers to interrogatories, projected enrollments for the
school year 1969-1970.
Q Have you also seen figures which were offered
yesterday as Defendants' Exhibit 26?
A May I see that, Mr. Stein? Yes, sir. I made a
copy of this yesterday afternoon when you brought it to me
at the lunch break.
Q Dr. Larsen, how did you proceed to analyze the
statistical data showing enrollment by race?
A I made up for my own purposes a series of tables
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that would enable me to examine the enrollment in each
school by race, by faculty assignment, including year of
construction, capacity, site acreage, and this type of data,
for each of the schools. And then studied those figures
in order to reach some kind of conclusion from them.
Q How did you organize the data to come to some con
clusion? Did you establish categories?
A I established categories, yes. I like to work
from definitions. I have the impression - have had for
several years - that unless each person using the word
"desegregation" or "integration" or "segregation", he finds
what he means when he uses the word. It’s very difficult
to know precisely what he's talking about. Therefore, as
a professional, when I look at a school district, whether
it is Winston-Salem or Newport or wherever, I try to arrive
at a definition for myself that I can apply then in my con
sideration of that district, and this I tried to do in
Winston-Salem.
Q Could you first tell us the definitions you
arrived at for "desegregation", if there are one or more
than one, and then explain to the Court how you arrived at
those definitions.
A Yes, sir. It is my opinion that a desegregated
school in Winston-Salem should reflect in its student body
enrollment the ratio composition of the grade level.
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MR. WQMBLE: We object to his statement as to
what it should.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: May I continue then?
THE COURT: Yes.
A A desegregated school - if I can say it perhaps
differently - in Winston-Salem is one in which the student
body enrollment reflects within ten percentage points the
racial composition of that grade level in the system as a
whole. Now, in my opinion, this constitutes a desegregated
school. If for instance, the black-white relationship in
the district would be 24 percent black to 76 percent white,
a particular elementary school would reflect that percentage
within ten percentage points. In other words, it would be
at 14 percent to 34 percent black population. This is what
I mean by desegregation.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Well, did you find, in fact, that
this was approximately the black-white ratio in the system?
A No, sir. In the system, yes, sir. In the
system - if I can refer to a note - from the data available
to me until yesterday dealing with student enrollment,
the elementary schools were about 22 percent Negro in the
system as a whole, to 78 percent white. The secondary
schools, the junior high schools, were approximately 76
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percent white, 24 percent Negro. The senior high schools,
77 percent white to 23 percent. This is in the district
as a whole.
Q Well, in looking at the elementary schools then,
what were the ranges which would meet your definition of
a desegregated school?
A In the elementary schools, a desegregated school,
according to my definition, would run from 12 percent to
32 percent Negro. Applying that percentage ratio, there
are two elementary schools in the district that qualify as
desegregated schools.
Q How many elementary schools are there?
A There are forty-two in the district as a whole,
countirg the Children’s Center and the Children's Home as
elementary schools. So there would be two elementary
schools in the district that would qualify as desegregated
schools.
Q In your analysis, did you establish any other
classifications?
A Yes, sir.
Q Excuse me, Dr. Larsen. Could you name the two
schools there?
A Yes, sir. According to my figures, Brunson
Elementary School and Old Richmond Elementary School are
desegregated elementary schools. Brunson has 25 percent
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Negro; Old Richmond 12 percent. So they both fall within
the 12 percent to 32 percent population.
Q The Old Richmond School is white at the outside
of the range you were establishing?
A One end of it, yes, sir.
Q You were talking about other classifications?
A Yes, of a desegregated school is, as I have
commented, as being in my opinion a segregated school is
one in which the majority race is more than 90 percent,
where the minority race would be 10 percent of the popula
tion.
Q In applying that category to the elementary
schools in the system, what did you find?
A I found that of the 42 elementary schools in the
system, 36 come under the classification of segregated
elementary schools.
Q So those would be schools with 10 or less percent
of black enrollment?
A Yes, sir.
Q I don't think that quite adds up to 42. Is there
another category?
A Yes, sir. I have a third category of schools.
This is the category that fits between the desegregated
school and a segregated school, and I merely call this a
racially mixed school. This is where— a racially mixed
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school in my definition is one in which the minority race
of the student body is more than 10 percent of the total,
but less or more than the range appropriate for a desegre
gated school.
G So with elementary schools, what would be the
percentage black which would come within a racially mixed
school, by your definition?
A It would be ten percent to twelve percent, or
over thirty-two percent.
Q How many schools did you find in that category?
A I found two. Easton Elementary School is 43
percent Negro, which puts it above the ratio of Negro
desegregated school. Petree Elementary School was 11 percent
Negro, which puts it obviously between 10 percent and 12.
Q So in summary, there were four schools that either
were in your desegregated category as defined, or in your
mixed category as defined, and the rest were segregated by
your definition?
A Yes.
Q Now, what did you find at the junior high schools?
A Applying the same definitions in the junior high
schools, a junior high school, to be desegregated, would
have a Negro enrollment of between 14 and 34 percent. There
is therefore one desegregated junior high school in the
district out of the seventeen Junior high schools. Wiley is
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30 percent Negro, according to the projected findings made
available to me.
Q Now, what about your second category of racially
mixed schools? How many came within that range?
A One junior high school, Northwest, has 12 percent
Negro population, which is rated just below the lower
range of desegregation.
MR. WOMBLE: Which one was that?
THE WITNESS: Northwest.
Q (By Mr. Stein) How many fell within your
definition of a segregated school?
A There are fifteen racially segregated junior
high schools in the district. These fifteen have the
minority race of less than 10 percent. Five of the fifteen
are segregated Negro junior high schools, and ten of the
fifteen are segregated white junior high schools.
Q Backing up, do you have the same kind of break
down for the white segregated elementary schools? How
many are segregated white and how many are segregated black?
A There are 36 elementary schools that could be
classified as segregated. 26 of these are white, 10 are
segregated Negro.
Q Moving on to the high schools, first tell us
what the range would be for the desegregated high school
according to your definition.
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A Yes. From the data made available to me, there
are 11,047 high school students. Of this total, 8,404 or
70 percent were white; 2,643 or 23 percent were Negro.
Therefore a desegregated senior high school, according to
my definition, will house a student population 13 percent
to 33 percent Negro.
Q Dr. Larsen, what was the percentage white for
high school?
A 23 percent Negro and 77 percent white in high
schools.
Q How many of the high schools meet your definition
of desegregation?
A Two.
Q Which high schools are those?
A North Forsyth and Reynolds. Both have approximate
ly sixteen percent Negro population, therefore fall within
the 13 to 33 percent classification.
Q How many fall in the mixed school classification?
A I found none.
Q How many came within the segregated classification7
A Seven. Seven segregated senior high schools.
Q How many of those are segregated white and how
many segregated black?
A Three are black, Anderson, Atkins and Carver.
Four segregated white, East Forsyth, Mount Tabor, Parkland,
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West Forsyth, all have less than 10 percent of Negro
population.
Q Did you make any analysis of the curricula
offered at the various secondary schools?
A Yes, I did. Y/ould you like a comment on that?
Q Would you describe how you proceeded to analyze
the data and what your conclusions were?
A Yes. I might preface that by a comment, if I
may, Mr. Stein. I am fully aware that Winston-Salem has
many school districts of good quality, offers a senior high
school course listing available to all schools in the
district, and the only qualification for a school to offer
any course that is available on the total course listings
is that there be enough students to warrant offering a
selective. One of the unfortunate effects in our culture
of segregated schools, particularly black schools, is that
it is very difficult to get together a class or a group of
youngsters large enough to warrant offering some of the
courses that we could classify as enrichment, advanced level,
the kinds of school work that help make a cultivated human
being, in my opinion. This is almost an inevitable tragedy
in our system. V/hen schools become desegregated at the
secondary level, we find that black children will tend then
to take these culturally enriching coui’ses and profit there
by . I have talked to many superintendents in the south and
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in the segregated north, and this is one of their very-
serious concerns. They want to offer advanced courses in
the languages, higher mathematics, in the arts, in all of
their schools, and they find it very difficult to do so in
the all-Negro or majority Negro schools. I'm sorry to
lecture, but I have a real concern here, and I think that
is happening in Winston-Salem, as it is happening in many,
many places.
Q Could you tell us where you looked to find out
this information, and what it was you found in Winston?
A Yes. One of the answers to interrogatories
filed by the School Board was a listing of courses available
in the senior high school, and a listing of the senior
high schools in which each of those courses was offered,
and I studied that table and reached some conclusions from
it that illustrate, I think, the point I was trying to make.
The three senior high schools which are either a majority
black or exclusively black - Carver, Anderson and Atkins -
are lacking in some of these areas, and I am sure this is
a very genuine concern of Mr. Sarbaugh and Mr. Ward.
Q Which courses did you find were offered at the
white high schools which were - given, not offered, at
white high schools which were not given at these three
schools, or some of them?
A Journalism, in the advanced course, journalism II
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is offered, at West and at Reynolds and Parkland; it's not
offered at the three black high schools, nor is it offered
at East or Mount Tabor. Some of the advanced speech courses,
advanced composition, is offered at most of the white high
schools; it’s not offered at the three black high schools.
World literature is offered at two of the white high schools,
and none of the black high schools. Consumer math is
offered at two of the white high schools and none of the
black. The fourth and fifth year math is offered at most
of the white high schools and none of the black. Advanced
biology is offered at two of the white high schools and none
of the black. Geology is offered at two of the white high
schools and none of the black. The same with ecology. Arts
and humanities is offered at Reynolds only. World cultures
is offered at four of the white high schools, none of the
black. The fourth year of art is offered at two of the
white high schools and none of the black. Second-year
bookkeeping is offered at three of the white high schools
and none of the black. I was very disappointed to find
corporative business training was not offered at the black
high schools.
Q Where was that offered?
A It was offered at two of the white high schools,
North and Parkland. I noticed that the fourth year of
Spanish was not offered at the black high schools, but is
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offered at three of the white high schools. I noticed that
the fourth year - the third and fourth year of Latin are
offered at four of the white high schools, and none at the
black. These are indications deriving from, I think, the
kind of culture in which we live, and I am quite certain
that if the Winston-Salem School System were desegregated
at the senior high level, that many of these courses would
be successfully offered at each of the schools. I have
great confidence that that would happen. I don't mean to
imply that this is a deliberate attempt on the part of the
school administration to deprive boys and girls of a kind
of cultural enrichment. I think it is an inevitability of
all black high schools.
THE COURT: Doctor, did you have an opportunity
to study the planned construction about some additional
schools that has been testified about here?
THE WITNESS: Planned construction in the future?
THE COURT: Yes, if they had the bond money for
some schools. Did you have an opportunity to study
that?
HIE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: I was going to ask you what, if any,
effect you thought that would have on the problems that
you are talking about.
THE WITNESS: I think, Your Honor, the courses that
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I mentioned here, I tried to identify not necessarily
higher vocational courses or specific trades courses,
which takes usually expensive installation of equip
ment, this sort of thing, and probably can be offered
not in all high schools, but they should be, but the
courses that are in the enrichment category that take
a requisite number of students and a teacher, and can
be offered in regular classrooms.
THE COURT: But if they were closing out some of
the all black high schools - and there is some informa
tion here about a school in the southwest quadrant
and one in the northwest quadrant, where they were all
sent together, then it would put the students together
where these courses could be offered.
THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honor. If the
students could be put together either in the present
buildings or in future buildings, the important thing
in my opinion is that they could be put together.
This then, I think, would make available these kinds
of experiences for all youngsters, and they would have
enough takers, you see.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Stein.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you prefaced your
remarks about curriculum with the comment that these courses
are either offered or not offered because of demand.
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A Yes.
Q What in your opinion affects demand? Let me ask
the question again. You also said that you thought some bla
children in an integrated situation would take the course.
Why would they take the course in the white school where
they didn't take it in the black school?
A Yes. I think the answer to that is two-fold, Mr.
Stein. In the first place, there may be in the black school
four or five youngsters who would be interested in the
course, and it's very difficult to offer a course for four
or five youngsters unless the school district is a very
wealthy one. They may not then get in the course. If
these four or five are in desegregated, completely desegre
gated senior high school, they would be part of a group of
say, fifteen, and then the course could be offered
economically. This is one criteria obviously. The other
criterion is a little more difficult to pin down. And it
is, I think, has a historical base, and I think Mr. Ward
and Mr. Sarbaugh would be more informed on this than I
would. But in the south and in the many parts of the north
where the tradition is all black high schools, Negro high
schools, dating back for perhaps several generations, the
tendency of the past up to the fairly recent present has
not been to offer culturally enriching courses in black
high schools. This is a comparatively new phenomenon, and
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being comparatively new even eithin the last generation or
so, means that the black youngsters have not been used to
electing courses of this nature, because the courses perhaps,
because of historical or economical rules, are not available
to them or have not been available. They are not used to
taking it. It is not part of their life style perhaps.
We find the same thing in Providence, for instance, when we
integrated the secondary school and brought the youngsters
together throughout the system, that we were offering more
courses in these cultural enriching areas than we had before,
and yet we had the same number of youngsters. We merely
had them in a different type of composition.
Q Moving on, Dr. Larsen, did you analyze any other
aspect of the system comparing black and white?
A In the study of the zoning and attendance areas,
I tried to determine what the elementary attendance areas,
junior high attendance areas, senior high attendance areas,
are, so I can get a picture of where youngsters come from
and where they go to school and what schools they feed into
above the elementary level.
Q Now, did you make any attempt to determine what
approach might be taken towards desegregating the schools,
if in fact they are segregated, as many of them may be, by
your definition?
A I have no magic plan to offer as a result of my
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brief time to stutfy. There is an approach that I believe
can be taken that will result in a great deal more desegre
gation than present, and it will not necessarily discommode
the entire school system to such a degree that it would be
like a process of any visitation we have in the school
district;nine senior high school districts - if I may use
that as the term - nine senior high school districts. There
is an approach in school district reorganization that goes
after the problem by taking the given - taking the nine
sub-districts in this case, and through a combination of
them arriving at a different kind of district mix, we might
say. This is, I think, a logical approach for a school
administrator to use, and certainly in my opinion should be
the first approach, because it is by all means the most
primarily logical one.
THE COURT: All right. Now, you tell me that so
I can understand it. If they should tell me to order
these schools to integrate within a week— you explain
that to me - I'm sure you're qualified in your field -
Just a little more in detail what you're talking about.
A Yes, sir, I will. Only with the statement that
it isn't magic, but it would seem logical. Would you like
me to go—
Q (By Nr. Stein) Yes. Would you come to the map?
Let me ask a couple more preliminary questions, Your Honor.
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THE COURTs All right.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Have you made any determination
or preliminary determination as to which senior high school
districts you would combine so that you could proceed to
desegregate the school?
A Yes, logically— I went in it this way. Is it
possible to make bigger districts out of the smaller ones
to do something? And there were nine senior high school
districts. And this is what I have done, in this provisional
manner.
THE COURT: Mr. Erlacher, will you mark this part
of his testimony so that I can get it back without too
much trouble when I get into studying this.
A What I have done is to take the present Carver
High School District - from now on, I ’ll use the word
"district" - I mean "high school district" to cover high
school district - the present Carver High School District,
the present Atkins High School District, ^ust below it,
the present East Forsyth District, and the present North
Forsyth District, and made one large school, senior high
district, of it, which would take this section.
THE COURT: That’s Carver, East Forsyth, and what
other?
THE WITNESS: Atkins, Carver, which you know,
Your Honor, is right here (indicating). North Forsyth
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and East Forsyth, the four.
THE COURT: All right.
A And put them into what I would call District One.
Now, in District No. 1, you would have obviously all of the
elementary schools, junior high schools, and senior high
schools presently in that area. Now, in District No. 1,
in order to desegregate the black elementary schools, and
with combinations of the white, I formed a cluster for
grouping of Skyland, which is right here (indicating), with
Petree and Sedge Garden, which go out.
THE COURT: You grouped Skyland?
THE WITNESS: I call this Group A.
THE COURT: Petree and what?
THE WITNESS: Sedge Garden.
THE COURT: All right.
A Now, there are basically two ways in which we can
group or pair elementary schools to reach some kind of
racial mix. One is by assigning grades, by assigning schools
by specific grades - I ’m sure you’re familiar with that,
Your Honor - for instance, putting grades one and two in
Skyland, three and four in Petree, five and six in Sedge
Garden, and calling this one elementary attendance area.
I have chosen not to take necessarily that fact - I don’t
know precisely where the youngsters live; I don’t have a
spot map showing the precise home locations of each of the
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youngsters attending each of these three schools. So I
assume that the youngsters attending Petree are living
around Petree, the youngsters attending Sedge Garden are
living around Sedge Garden, and the youngsters attending
Skyland are living around Skyland. What I say is a possi
bility is for these three schools now being one attendance
area. The school district could assign grades one through
six in each of the three schools. Now, they would have to
take two things into consideration - number one, the proxi
mity of the youngsters’ homes to the school, and number
two is the race of the youngster. Now, using the figures
that are presently— the number of boys and girls presently
assigned to each of these three schools, this would mean -
if this can be done - you would have a majority white,
minority black, student body in Skyland, Petree and Sedge
Garden.
G (By Mr, Stein) Dr. Larsen, in your testimony you
are using the figures which were the projected figures for
this year, rather than the figures given yesterday?
A Yes.
Q I think it’s important that he work on those
figures.
A I didn’t have time to revise everything since
yesterday afternoon when I received the new figures. I
have looked them over, and they are basically the same in
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-849-
ratio of black and white except for one school.
THE COURT: I would like to have from you some
support, because this is a complicated matter, and it
takes a little thought.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, we have never suggested
what was to be done isn’t complicated to us; it’s
Just simple to us that it needs to be done.
THE COURT: You insisted that I do this by
February 1st, Hr. Stein.
MR. STEIN: We’ve asked you to ask them to do it.
THE WITNESS: I would like to say, Your Honor,
that I find it somewhat embarrassing to come down with
even what seems to be magic. The central school
administration is privy to a lot more data than I am,
obviously, and would be able to do it much more quickly
than I could. I don't bring a staff along.
THE COURT: Of course, if they bring it to the
Judge and tell him that this is it, he would cast into
it— since last Wednesday— it would likely, in your
opinion take him a little time to absorb it and evaluate
it, wouldn’t it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, and I think that he could call
on the school administration, the Board of Education,
to help him. I would like to say, Your Honor, that I
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-850-
don't think that this is my Job, and I don’t think
it's your Job; I think it's their Job basically.
The second grouping of elementary schools in
District On® is— I have taken Carver Elementary and
Fairview Elementary and grouped them with this cluster
up here - Oak Summit, Mineral Springs, and Prince
Ibraham. That means taking the two black elementary
schools and grouping them with the three predominantly
white—
MR. WOMBLE: Excuse me Just a minute. That was
Fairview and what?
THE WITNESS: Carver Elementary.
THE COURT: And grouped with Prince Ibraham?
THE WITNESS; Yes. I think that's the way it's
pronounced - Mineral Springs Elementary and Oak Summit
Elementary. And I suggest that the school district do
what they have themselves suggested doing, that is
closing Brown Elementary School. According to the
figures I have, there are enough spaces - student
vacant spaces - in Oak Summit, Petree, Prince Ibraham,
Mineral Springs, to absorb the youngsters from Brown,
and I would suggest closing Brown and assigning those
youngsters to schools that have vacant spaces. That
leaves us, Your Honor, with two majority, or exclusively
black elementary schools in District One. Those are
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North Elementary and 14th Street Elementary. I agree
with the Board in one of its plans for the future—
C (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you say the Board’s
plan, and you are in agreement with the Board. You are
referring to a survey by the State Department of a few years
ago?
A Yes. The State Department survey in ’64, I
believe, and the Peabody report last spring, and as I can
recall, I have a note on that somewhere, they both suggested
closing Brown. What I’ve tried to accomplish, Your Honor,
is to desegregate elementary education in this new district
by grouping the black schools with white schools and
assigning to each school the students by nearness to that
school and by race, to obtain a majority white, minority
black composition in each of the elementary schools, --.nd
then I suggest — and I frankly have not had time to work
out the statistical detail and the feeder system - that it
be developed from the elementary schools to the Junior high
schools and senior high schools in the district that will,
in effect, render each of those majority black - majority
white to minority black. And the composition of black and
white in a new district makes that quite possible.
Q Dr. Larsen, I ’m not sure you finished saying what
you would do with North and 14th Street.
A Yes. In the short run, I believe that North and
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14th Street will have to oe utilized. I believe that if
they are utilized in the short run, they will remain majority
black schools. I suggest that as soon as feasible, that
the school district close those out, or use the buildings
for other purposes, as has been suggested in several other
surveys. Their location is such that it would be difficult
to do much else with them. Now, I would suggest reducing
the student body in them by assigning to other schools
where the pupils' residence makes that possible, but I do
not think that they can reduce it down to zero now. May I
proceed?
Q Yes.
A I believe that by developing a feeder system from
the new elementary setup into the junior high and senior
high in District One, we can desegregate the schools. And
I suggest - I would suggest, frankly, that this be done.
If I can move to another district—
Q All right.
A I have taken the Mount Tabor District, Your Honor,
which is In here (indicating), and combined it with the
present Reynolds District, which is contiguous to it, and
we can call that District No. 2. Rather than specifying
every single move of every single child, what I have tried
to do here is to take the elementary schools - there are
three majority to exclusively black elementary schools - in
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this new district now, this is District No. 2, Kimberly
Park, Carver Crest—
THE COURT: .Wait a minute.
THE WITNESS: I ’m sorry.
THE COURT: Two or three elementary schools?
THE WITNESS: There are three elementary schools
that are majority black or exclusively block - Kimberly
Park is here, Carver Crest is just below it, and
Lowrance is just above it (indicating). Now, I suggest
that these three schools be grouped with a number of
white elementary schools and that the students be
assigned to the school of the group by nearness to the
school and by race. Now, the elementary schools I
would suggest combining with Kimberly Park, Carver
Crest anu Lowrance are Speas—
THE COURT: Now, wait a minute; a little more
slowly.
THE WITNESS: Speas.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Whitaker, cherwood Forest, Moore,
Brunson, and Ardmore.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: This would mean a grouping which
would look something like this; we can look at it in
the form of a circle.
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Q (By Mi'. Stein) About how large is the area that
you described on the map*?
A From Sherwood Forest, wiiich is the fartherest,
it’s a litt-e over two miles as the crow flies, to Kimberly
Park. 1 would think that from the extremes of that grouping,
that the distance would run about three to three and a half
miles from one end to the other. 1 am aware obviously that
the youngsters now attending Kimbei'ly Park don't ail live
on top of it; some of them live several blocks above and
several blocks below, or whatever.
THE COURT: bo you know enough about the racial
patterns in Winston-balem to say whether or not the
plan which you are suggesting, and to obtain a ratio
which you deem a desegregated school, whether that
would require busing or not?
THE WITNESS: I can't say exactly, Your Honor. I
must assume, not having a pupil spot map, that the
pupils attending a particular school today live within
a short distance of that school. I'm assuming tnat,
and I cannot say precisely how much busing would be
needed here; there would probably be some. I am trying,
obviously, I am sure you realize, to keep it co as
small amount as possible ana still arrive at a majority
white ana a minority black elementary school. Then I
would assume in District 2 a feeder system from the
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elementary schools to the secondary in such a manner
as to desegregate secondary education. I'm sure
Your Honor realizes that secondary education is never
the most difficult to desegregate, because you can do
it by feeding into it. The third district I would
suggest is a combination of Anderson and Parkland
districts into District No. 3.
THE COURT: Just a minute.
THE WITNESS: Anderson and Parkland. The Anderson
district is this geographically small one here, and
Parkland is Just below it (indicating).
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: It would be this (indicating on
map).
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Using the same basic approach, Your
Honor, I would take Diggs Elementary School, which is
predominantly or exclusively black, and by combining it
with South Park and Konnoak arrive at a majority v/hite
and minority black in each of those three elementary
schools. By assigning in the same way as the other
groupings by nearness and by race, I would take the
same approach with Mebane, combining it with Forest
Park and Waughtown.
THE COURT: You combine Mebane with—
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TIE WITNESS; Forest Park, and moving on to
Waughtown. We would have two groupings of elementary
schools in this new District No. 3. And then assign
ing a feeder system through secondary schools, which
would desegregate those.
The fourth district, Your Honor, I would say,
and the last one, is the West Forsyth District, which
is presently this one (indicating). There are large
distances and few schools, and I would suggest leaving
it as it is, fully realizing that we wind up with
predominantly white elementary schools.
THE COURT: Now, that’s going to violate your
definition, isn't it?
THE WITNESS; It's going to violate my definition,
yes, it is, to that degree. My first consideration was
to see what I could do in getting rid of all black,
majority black, schools and rendering a majority white,
minority black elementary and secondary system.
Having done that, I am not ready, Your Honor, to recom
mend that we take youngsters and move them all over
the district (indicating on map). I think as time
develops, districts should look forward to rendering
Vienna, Lewisville, Clemmons, for instance, as desegre
gated schools.
THE COURT; In a unitary system that is unitary,
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that lends itself to additional improvement and so on,
in a more complete unitary system, isn't that what you
are saying?
THE WITNESS: I don't think you build Rome com-
t
pletely overnight, Your Honor.
When you have here, as you have here, a county-
city system historically, because you are going to have
schools at the extremes of the county, all the way
around. Having desegregated the center part of the
entire area, then I would suggest then move in such a
way - and I don't remember dates of construction of
these outlying schools, but perhaps eventaully those
schools could be used for other purposes, or abandoned
and the student population brought in closer. This is
the inevitable consequence in many city-county systems.
THE COURT: Now, before we leave it, your Fourth
District - and maybe you can tell me qgain other than
just showing me on the map - maybe Mr. Stein and Mr.
Womble can tell me what that encompasses, so that I
will have it here in my notes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it encompasses the Vienna
Elementary—
THE COURT: All right; just a minute. All right,
Vienna Elementary.
THE WITNESS: The Lewisville and Clemmons Elements
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Schols. Yes, those three elementary schools; Southwest
and West Forsyth Senior High.
THE COURT: All right. Those are the ones?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, in saying that you
would recommend leaving the West Forsyth District as it is,
did you consider ways that the secondary schools there, the
Junior high school and high school, could be desegregated?
A They could be. I have not worked that out, but
they could be by bringing people from the inner part, from
graduates of elementary schools in the inner city area, and
assigning them out to the Junior high so that you would
develop a feeder system that way (indicating on map).
Q Dr. Larsen, as the district is presently consti-
tued, when assignments are made, a great many children go
very long distances to secondary schools, is that true?
A Yes, sir. You take in the entire county, you
have considerable distances.
Q And that is also normal, isn't it?
A By all means, by all means. I understand that
historically when Carver High Scnool - sitting here some
years ago - 1 believe Mr. Ward's testimony was that all of
the black youngsters in the county went to it. That meant
that they were being brought from all over to that school.
It must have looked like a huge bus lot. This is inevitable
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when you have these long distances.
Q Dr. Larsen, in preparing your plan, or your
approach, I think you described it, it's true, is it not,
that you were trying to develop an approach which could be
implemented quickly, could be developed and implemented
quickly?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that in terms of longer range planning, that
there might be ways to improve the situation of the out
lying schools, and you suggested possible other uses for
14th Street and North?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, is it possible to develop a more intricate
plan without a spot map showing where children live by race?
A The only other way I would know to do it and
develop a more detailed and intricate plan would be with a
spot map, or at least with a grid map that would locate each
youngster within a half a mile throughout the city-county.
This is what we used in the Charlotte case, for instance,
and were able to work rather detailed on that basis, but
without that, any person is assuming that where the schools
are now is near where the youngsters live, and you can't go
much beyond that assumption. Go there has to be necessarily
somewhat general—
Q Do you have any estimate, as professor of adminis-
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tration, how long it would take - beginning with your
approach as a hypothesis - to develop and implement a plan
to accomplish what you are suggesting be accomplished here?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A I must assume, as X said a little while ago, that
the school administration is privy to considerably more
data than anybody coming in from the outside can absorb,
and based upon that assumption and based upon my experience
in the field and in the administration, I think that this
grouping plan of elementary schools - the majority white
to minority black - and feeding systems into secondary
could be accomplished in a few weeks, or perhaps a bit
before that.
THE COURT: Do you think that's educationally
sound, as an educator?
THE WITNESS: You mean moving the children, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't think it is educationally
unsound, no, sir.
THE COURT: You don't feel like moving a child
from one school - and you say it's principally in the
lower grades, your elementary schools - in moving a
child in the middle of the year, that child being
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adjusted in the present classroom, that that would
cause no great problem, education-wise?
THE WITNESS: I don't think it would cause any
great problem, no, sir. I have great confidence in
the resiliency of children, end in the understanding
and cooperation of teachers. I think that what happens
at the change point itself is not as important as
what happens immediately following the change, and I
think sometimes we fall into a trap, that we change
youngsters and then abandon then. I am encouraged to
see training sessions in Winston-Salem for youngsters,
for parents, for teachers; and we know through all
kinds of research in the last several years that the
support given teachers in classes by the administra
tion, by the Board, and by the community is the most
important ingredient. Based on that professional type
assumption, I think this could be done, and I don't
think it would hurt the youngsters educationally or
in any other way. Then it is done, Your Honor. The
uncertainty of doing something, a little now and a
little later, a little more later, is perhaps more
galling and more upsetting to youngsters and parents
than aoing the whole job.
THE COURT: But assuming the whole job was going
to be done on September 1st, the beginning of next year,
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a n d y o u h a v e l e s s t h a n n i n e t y d a y s o f s c h o o l l e f t h e r e
i n t h i s s c h o o l y e a r — I 'm n o t t a l k i n g a b o u t , y o u k n o w ,
g r a d u a l l y a c c r e t i o n t o so m e s y s t e m p r e m i s e d o n t h a t .
W hat d o y o u s a y ? Y ou r e a l i z e t h a t w e a r e n ow i n t h e
l a t t e r p a r t o f J a n u a r y - I h a v e n ’ t c o u n t e d th e m u p ,
b u t c e r t a i n l y l e s s t h a n a h u n d r e d s c h o o l d a y s l e f t ,
a c t u a l s c h o o l d a y s . Was y o u r s t a t e m e n t b a s e d o n t h e
p r e m i s e t h a t e v e n com e S e p t e m b e r , t h e r e w o u ld b e a
g r a d u a l m o v in g i n t o so m e u n i t a r y p l a n w h en y o u a n s w e r e d
t h a t y o u t h o u g h t i t w a s n o t u n s o u n d ?
THE WITNESS: I t h i n k y o u c a n d o t h e w h o le t h i n g
n ow b e f o r e t h e e n a o f t h i s s c h o o l y e a r , a n d d o w h a t e v e r
p o l i s h i n g u p n e e d s t o b e d o n e b y S e p t e m b e r . I f e a r
l a g s ; I h a v e s e e n i t s o o f t e n - n o t d e l i b e r a t e l a g s ,
b u t l a g s b e t w e e n t h e d e c i d i n g o f a t h i n g a n d t h e
a c c o m p l i s h m e n t o f t h a t ; t h a t t h e m o re w e c a n s h o r t e n
t h e l a g b e t w e e n t h e d e c i d i n g o f s o m e t h i n g a n d t h e
a c c o m p l i s h m e n t o f t h a t , I t h i n k t h e b e t t e r o f f w e a r e ,
i n d e a l i n g w i t h t h e p u b l i c a n d e x p l a i n i n g i t t o th e m ,
a n d i n t h e e n d , t h e k i n d o f m o r a le f a c t o r am ong f a c u l t y
a n d s t u d e n t s ; t h e k i n d o f s u p p o r t f a c t o r I m e n t i o n e d .
I t h i n k t h a t l e a v e - t i m e s h o u l d b e s h o r t e n e d a s m uch a s
a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l y p o s s i b l e .
THE COURT: O f c o u r s e , y o u d o n ' t t r y c a s e s o n w h a t
y o u r e a d i n n e w s p a p e r s o r w h a t y o u r e c e i v e i n l e t t e r s ,
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but I read for adult teachers, this change - both
black and white - has caused considerable trauma for
the individual teacher, this move that they have made,
and that if they are honest with us, then it looks
like some child - well, it would be even more upsetting
I ’m not in the field of education and I am some several
years removed from my childhood, but I still remember
something about it. When you change even from a class
to a new teacher, there is difficulty and so forth.
All right. Will your examination go on some bit
yet?
MR. STEIN: Your Honor, I think it might be ten
or fifteen minutes more.
THE COURT: Well, we will take a morning recess.
You may come down; let’s take a recess now.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, if you will come back to
the stand, please. All right, Mr. Stein.
Q (By Mr. Stein) Dr. Larsen, you testified earlier
that you had acted as a consultant in school desegregation
cases in other school districts. Could you give us your
estimate as to whether the ^ob of desegregating the schools,
according to your definition, is more or less difficult
here than in the other districts you’ve looked at?
A Comparisons are somewhat difficult, but I don’t
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think the job here is terribly difficult. I think that
they have a couple of advantages here. The biggest advan
tage, rather obviously, is that it is a city-county system,
and also an advantage that the housing areas in the city
are predominantly black and are not too densely populated,
and they are close to white areas, and they have the flexi
bility allowed by space outside, rather than being some
what locked in to a city only system and not having the
flexibility to move out. In the groupings I tried to
illustrate, they were mostly groupings moving out from the
inner city, and that does give an advantage very definitely.
And I ’m sorry - the second major advantage is that the
ratio is about 75 white to 25 black on a percentage basis,
which enables the school district to set up and desegregate
on the basis of minority white - minority black, majority
white. And this, we think, is a comparatively sound
educational thing to do. Seventy percent plus white, 25
percent plus black.
Q Dr. Larsen, in describing your approach which you
have developed in the few days that you have studied some
figures and looked at some schools, and as you drove around
the area, you have not affected some of the outlying schools
which are either all white or predominantly white, and you
testified that you didn't know how far your approach would
take in desegregating two of the inner city black schools.
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I think that was 14th Street, and what was the other one?
A North.
Q North. Do you think, even in the short run, that
it would be impossible to develop a plan which would effect
these schools as well?
A No, I don't think it's impossible. I maintain
that the school administration has more data than I, more
familiarity obviously of the possibilities. They may well
find that they can in fact desegregate North and 14th
Street; they may find in fact that they can desegregate
some of the outlying county-based elementary schools and
secondary schools. I certainly would not want to give the
impression that it could not be done in the time available
to me, and I am presenting a generalized approach. I
certainly must not only admit but rather insist that it»s
very likely the Board can do a more thorough Job in this.
THE COURT: Now, at the time - as it should be -
no public records usually indicate race. To do what
you are talking about, would it not require some— if
they don't have a map indicating the race of the indi
viduals and the students living at a particular place,
wouldn't it take a door-to-door canvass to find out?
Maybe they have that; I don't know. They have testified
that they keep no records on the basis of race any
more - and we can't disagree with that policy. Wouldn't
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that bring on some problem with your system - the
matter of finding out where our people live and what
race there? We’ve got to find out.
THE WITNESS: I assume, Your Honor, that the
school system knows where the pupils live, where the
locations are, and I did not hear the testimony that
they do not know the races of the youngsters, as could
be determined in the schools that they are presently
attending.
THE COURT: To make the division among the schools,
the testimony would involve finding out who lives
where, and what race lives at a particular point, as
I would see it. Somebody said on the stand the way
they found out what percentage black and white was to
call the principal, and he can tell. But of course,
if they have that information - which I don’t know -
maybe they do have it, but would you agree that some
census has got to be made about who lives where under
your system?
THE WITNESS: To do a precise pinpointing, yes,
some census— at least to the point — I think I
mentioned something like a half-mile grid, the popula
tion within a half-a-mile-square grid on the map, can
give you enough information for school allocation
purposes without having to pinpoint precisely the home
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- 867 "
of each youngster. This information may be available.
Again this is something—
THE COURT: Maybe they have that; I don't know.
All right.
THE WITNESS: I might say, Your Honor, that in
districts where there is a great deal of mobility of
population, moving from one section to another, the
zone locations are obviously subject to change. I
remember in Illinois, we had to know precisely where
every youngster lived and what grade level he was in
and so forth, because we had to plan - constantly plan
and replan every year for reallocation of youngsters
to schools, and we had to do it because of great
mobility shifts in the suburban population, and I
think the same kind of approach can be used for
different purposes also.
MR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Vomble?
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Larsen, what is your age?
A Forty-seven.
Q I believe that you said that you were bora in
Iowa?
A That's right.
Q And where was it that you got your A.B.?
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A The University of Northern Iowa.
Q And then you said that you got some graduate
degree in Minnesota. What was that?
A Master's, M.A.
Q And a Ph.D. was where?
A The University of Michigan.
Q Now, you said that your first employment was in
Wiscpnsin?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what were you teaching there, what grade
level?
A Senior high school. I was teaching high school
English, occasionally U. S. history and social science.
Q What was the student population of the school in
which you were teaching there?
A Washington Park High School, approximately 1,500
students. Racine, I am sure you know, is somewhat an
industrial town of about 90,000 people. This is what we
call now an inner city school. In those days, we didn't
have those terms.
Q What was the racial makeup of the school that
you were teaching in?
A I would hate to be penned to a precise number.
I would say less than ten percent Negro, but precisely I
couldn't say.
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Q Do you think it could be probably less than five
percent?
A I don't know, Mr. Womble. It would be somewhere
between five and seven, somewhere in that area. Barbara
McNair was one of my students, incidentally, one of my few
claims to fame.
Q How many black did you have in your classes?
A I taught required English. We didn't have the
tracking system, so my classes would reflect about the same
percentage of Negroes in the school as a whole.
Q So about one out of twenty-two, you'd say?
A Perhaps more than that. It would be two or three
out of twenty sometimes.
Q And sometimes no blacks?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you said you were there until 1956?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you went to somewhere in Illinois. Where
did you go in Illinois?
A To Park Forest, Illinois, to Ridge Township school
district in Illinois, twenty-five miles south of Chicago.
Q Is that a so-called bedroom community for Chicago?
A Yes, sir. It's a good word for it.
Q What were you doing there?
A I was chairman of the division of language arts
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and social studies, on the superintendent’s staff as assis
tant to the superintendent in those areas.
Q Assistant to the superintendent of the school
system?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what was the total school population of that
school system?
A The Illinois districts are unique. There are
high school districts and elementary school districts, as
I'm sure you know. This was a high school district, ten to
twelve.
Q The district you were in was Just a high school
district?
A Yes, sir. It was fed by thirteen elementary
school districts with whom we worked in close conjunction.
Q How many high school students were there in your
district?
A We had in the late fifties the reputation of the
fastest growing district in the country. I think we started
in *56. When I went there, there were about 700 students
in one high school. When I left there, I left there five
years later, we had about 3,000 in three high schools,
two and a half.
Q What was the racial composition of the high school
students in that district?
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A In nidge Township, I don't think - the years
1956 to 1961 - a six square mile district, I don't think
there was one single Iiegro living. That has changed.
Q I believe you said that you went from there to
serve as principal of a high school in Michigan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was that?
A St. Joseph.
Q Where is St. Joseph, Michigan located?
A It's on Lake Michigan, the eastern shore, 100 miles
from Chicago.
Q Does it serve as an outlying community for some
larger city?
A No. The area is the St. Joseph-Benton Harbor
metropolitan area.
Q And what was the nature— what was the total
pupil enrollment in the St. Joseph public school system? I
take it this was a public school system?
A Yes, sir. I don't remember exactly, Mr. W'omole.
We had around 1,000 to 1,200 in the high school. There were
two junior high schools, and the obvious feeding elementary
schools. I don't remember precisely the overall population.
Q Well, if there were 1,000 to 1,200 in the high
school, was it a 6-5-3 system?
A Yes, sir.
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Q So that would indicate somewhere in the neighbor
hood of 45,000 total enrollment, wouldn't it?
A In that area, yes, depending on how wealthy you
are and what your student-teacher ratio is.
Q Was this a wealthy community?
A Comparatively. Well, comparatively. I mean
exactly that. I think that we had about &550.00 behind each
youngster, which was not in 1961-62 - it’s about the median
in Michigan.
Q What was the black enrollment in that school
system?
A I would say around four or five percent.
Q Four or five percent?
A Yes. There again, I am guessing.
Q How many black teachers did you have in the
system while you were principal?
A We had one in the high school, and I don’t remember
how many in the others.
Q How many teachers did you have in the system in
all?
A About sixty-five to seventy in the high school.
I suppose around— it would be 300 to 350 in the system,
something of that nature. Very few black teachers.
Q How many black associates or assistants on your
staff?
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A On my s ta f f?
Q Yes.
A I didn't even have an assistant prin ipal when I
was principal there. I wanted one, and I understand my
successor got one. So my administrative staff, it consisted
entirely of myself.
Q So your staff was all white then, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir. I'm Danish.
Q Now, you moved from there to Ann Arbor - strike
that Just a moment. What was the overall black population—
what was the total population and what was the black popu
lation in St. Joseph, Michigan, when you were there?
A Our school district population, which was a
little bit beyond the city limits, took in part of the
county - was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000. And
I can't say how many of those were Negro, Mr. Womble. There
were very few.
Q Now, were you still operating in the public school
systems when you moved to Ann Arbor, or was that another
a;3ignment?
A I Joined the University of Michigan staff.
Q So your only experience then as a teacher or
principal in a public school system has been with systems
that were either all white or nearly all white, hasn't it?
A Yes, sir, as a direct involvement, if you said
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that.
Q As a teacher or principal or staff member?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what was it you were doing at Ann Arbor?
A I was in the School of Education as an instructor
and as a consultant to the Bureau of School Services. I
taught three classes, seminars, in the School of Education,
and I supervised student teachers assigned to several schools
public schools, in Ann Arbor and surrounding communities.
And in my spare time I studied. I wrote a dissertation and
studied for the doctoral examinations.
Q Studied for what?
A The doctoral examinations.
Q It was while you were there, between 1964 and '66,
that you earned your Ph.D., is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you got your Ph.D. at Michigan in what year?
A *66.
Q Up to that time then, you had not been involved
in any consultative work with respect to school integration,
had you?
A No, sir.
Q Then you moved to Rhode Island in 1966?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe you said you lived there in East
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Greenwich, Rhode Island?
A Yes.
Q Where is East Greenwich, Rhode Island?
A It’s a beautiful little town, you must come there
sometime. It is a small 300-year old village on Narragan-
sett Bay, about twenty miles south of Providence.
Q On Narragansett Bay?
A Yes, sir.
Q What's the population?
A It's near the Quansett Point Naval Air Station,
if you were there in the war.
Q I believe you said that you went to Rhode Island
as an associate professor at Rhode Island College?
A Yes, sir.
Q And where is Rhode Island College?
A It is in Providence.
Q How far is your home from the college?
A About twenty minutes, Mr. Womble.
Q What is the population of Providence?
A It's approximately 200,000, I believe.
Q And what is the black population of Providence?
A It ranges from 12 to 15 percent of the population.
Q What is the population of East Greenwich?
A I don't really know, Mr. Womble.
Q About what?
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A
And what is the black population of East Greenwich''
I have no idea. Very, very small. I live out in
N in e th o u sa n d p e rh a p s .
Q
A
a woody area; I have very little connection with East
Greenwich. I ’m sorry; I Just don’t have much information
about East Greenwich.
Q You chose the place that you live yourself, didn't
you?
A Yes, sir, it's near a trout stream and it's near
the ocean, yes, sir.
G Do you have children?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many children do you have?
A I have two.
Q What are their ages?
A My daughter is eighteen, and my son is sixteen.
Q \7here does your daughter go to school?
A The University of Rhode Island.
Q Where did she go to high school?
A Several places. She graduated from East Greenwich
High School; she was there her last year.
Q Were there any blacks in her high school?
A Not at East Greenwich.
Q Where does your son go to school?
A He's a Junior in East Greenwich High School now.
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Q
None that I know of.
Now, you don’t have anything against the blacks,
A re th e re any b la c k s in s c h o o l w ith him ?
A
Q
do you?
A No. We lived in Providence for a year - we
didn't get to that, or maybe I didn't mention it. We moved
out to East Greenwich just last year. Do you want to ask
me about Providence, or where we lived or anything?
Q All right, tell me about it.
A If we are going through a chronology, I don't
want to leave any gaps.
Q What's that?
A We rented a house in Providence for a year while
we were looking for a house, and Providence is very crowded
and very congested and very expensive, and ray son and
daughter went to school in Providence, of course, while we
were there.
Q You were there one year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were there blacks in school with them there?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A I don't know.
Q Very few?
A This was on the east side; comparatively few.
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-878
ren percent, eight percent, something in that area.
Q And you moved away from there after you stayed
there one year?
A
Q
Yes, sir.
As I understand it, Rhode Island College
that a public college?
A Yes, sir. There are three state institutions in
Rhode Island of higher education - the University of Rhode
Island, which is in Kingston down in the south part of the
state, which is the land grant institution - agriculture,
engineering, liberal arts. Rhode Island College is education
and liberal arts, the only one in the state, and then there
is the Rhode Island Junior College.
q The Rhode Island College then is a teachers'
college?
A Basically, about seventy-five to eighty-five
percent of its graduates go into teaching each year, and
we offer a master's degree in many fields also.
Q what is the enrollment of the Rhode Island College;
What is the total enrollment?
A I would say about twenty-eight hundred in the
undergraduate school, and about twenty-five hundred in the
graduate school. Rhode Island is not the biggest state in
the union.
Q And how many blacks attend Rhode Island College?
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A N o t as many as we w o u ld l i k e . R ou gh ly e q u iv a le n t
to the blacKs in the state. I think almost all of our
students at the undergraduate level are from Rhode Island
obviously, and the population would be in the college— we
are recruiting blacks. Presently the percentages would be
around five or six percent black.
Q Go that would be maybe two to three hundred blacks
out of 5,300?
A I was talking about in relation to the under-grad
school, Mr. Womble. I think I said that. At the graduate
school, I couldn’t say. Graduate students, many of them
are part-time, and it's difficult.
Q So you would say then there may be 150 blacks?
A Probably.
Q What is the size of the faculty there?
A I don’t know; I really don’t. You’re going to ask
of course, how many blacks on the faculty, and I think that
we have about fifteen. The faculty - the college professors
are hard-put to remember how many men are in their own
department, let alone the whole university as a whole.
Three hundred, something like that, four hundred.
Q Three hundred to four hundred?
A Yes.
Q Total faculty?
A Yes. Perhaps more than that.
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Q Three hundred to four hundred or more?
A Yes.
Q Do you think it would be nearer to five hundred?
A Well, you ask yourself in college, what is a
faculty member? We have a full time equivalency, I think,
of 380 or so. We have a lot of professors who teach part-
time, that sort of thing.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, you have been working as a con
sultant in connection with integration of the schools for
how long?
A About three years, Mr. Womble.
q Did you get into this through your work for the
Department of Justice, or how was it?
A You mean how I started?
Q Yes.
A This area of my work?
Q Yes.
A I don't remember. I don't know if I could point
to a specific origin, Mr. Womble. I had - as I think I
testified, 1 had been engaged in work at the University of
Michigan in school reorganization studies and that sort of
thing, and because of this, my background, I guess I got
into the work through a colleague at the college who was
engaged, and X worked for him, and this is how it happened.
Q How many years have you been working as a consultan
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to the Legal Defense and Educational Fund of the NAACP?
A I was trying to remember it the other night.
Someone asked me that question* and I think it is two and
a half years. This is obviously intermittent, you know.
Q During the past three years, how much of your
time has been spent on your consultative work?
A I can tell you last year when I reviewed the year,
I had spent eighteen days outside of the state on consultant
work with school districts, eighteen to twenty days, plus
some days that I spent in my office at home working on data,
which would probably be another four to five.
Q And the year before that?
A It would be about the same; it’s about the same,
and this year will be about the same. This is deliberate
on my part.
Q What was your income last year from this work?
A I don't know. I don't know. 1 could have been
prepared to answer that question by bringing along my income
tax statement or something, but I don't know.
Q Approximately - it doesn't have to be down to the
penny or dollar.
A Eighteen hundred to two thousand.
Q Was all of that for the Legal Defense and Educa
tional Fund?
A You’re speaking of last year?
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-882
Q Y e s .
A M o s t o f i t w a s , y e s . I h a d a d d i t i o n a l in c o m e f r o m
o t h e r c o n s u l t i n g s o u r c e s .
Q W hat I m e a n t w a s y o u r t o t a l in c o m e l a s t y e a r fr o m
y o u r c o n s u l t a t i v e w o r k o n i n t e g r a t i o n m a t t e r s .
A I s e e . Y e s , s i r , t h a t ' s w h a t I t r i e d t o r e s p o n d
t o .
q And t h a t w o u ld b e a b o u t tw o t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s l a s t
y e a r ?
A M ore o r l e s s , y e s , s i r .
Q W hat i s t h a t ?
A M ore o r l e s s .
Q Y ou t h i n k i t m ig h t b e m o re ?
A T h a t ' s a c l i c h e , I g u e s s . N o , I d o n ' t t h i n k i t
c o u l d b e m o r e .
Q How many days o u t s i d e the s t a t e in 1967?
A A b o u t h a l f o f t h a t , I w o u ld t h i n k .
Q A b o u t n i n e d a y s ?
A Y e s , I w o u ld s a y s o .
q S o t h a t d u r i n g t h e l a s t t h r e e y e a r s , y o u w o u ld
s a y t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n o u t o f t h e s t a t e o n t h i s t y p e w o r k
f o r a p p r o x i m a t e l y f o r t y - f i v e d a y s t o t a l ?
A Y / e l l , I h a t e t o b e p i n n e d p r e c i s e l y t o t h a t , b u t
t h a t i s i n t h e r a n g e o f a c c u r a c y , I t h i n k , y e s . I w o u ld s a y
i n t h e l a s t t h r e e y e a r s .
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Q And during tills time, you have studied and given
advice and made recommendations with respect to the Pitt
County system in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Johnston County system in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Beaufort County system in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Chowan County system, Edenton, Chowan County
of North Carolina?
A Yes.
i
Q The Washington City system of North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Durham County system of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q The Charlotte-Mecklenberg system of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q And the Concord system of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q The Norfolk system in Virginia?
A Yes.
Q The Portsmouth system in Virginia?
A Yes.
Q And the Alabama State Training School?
A Yes.
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Q So you spent approximately forty-five days to
study and give your professional advice on eleven different
systems in that period of time?
A I have never figured it out precisely that way,
but that’s the way it comes out, yes.
Q In other words, there hasn’t been much time at
any place, has there?
A You asked me about time out of state on the
systems; you didn’t ask me about time spent at home or in
my office working on it.
Q You said about three days on that?
A Usually for each case.
Q I asked you about per year.
A I must have misunderstood you, Mr. Womble. Do
you want to ask your question again?
Q All right. How much tine did you spend in your
office working on these matters last year?
A I would say it would run one to two days for every
day spent out of state. So it would be about twenty to
thirty days at home working on these kinds of data.
Q Twenty to thirty days?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would that apply for the previous year also?
A I would think so. The ratio usually is one to two
days at home for each day spent out. This doesn’t always
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figure exactly that, but overall it would be about that.
Q So then you spent forty to fifty days and were
paid only two thousand dollars?
A I often did not charge for the time I spent at
home.
Q Now, you have also served during this period of
time as a consultant to the Rhode Island office that is in
charge of the Title I ESEA program in that state?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that a good program?
A I think it could be better. We’re working at it.
We have huge problems.
Q Is it a good program?
A My familiarity with it was as a consultant on the
programs for the disadvantaged in the boys’ and girls’
training schools in the Children's Center in the state.
Q So your relation to that program did not go into
the public school system?
A No, except by extension, because that’s where the
youngsters came from. They wound up in the correctional
institutions.
Q Is it a worthwhile program?
A Yes, sir. It approaches it; it needs much improve-
ment.
Q It needs to be improved and extended?
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A And better thought through.
Q And of course you are talking about the manner in
which it is operated in Rhode Island?
A Yes.
Q What about the innovative program under Title III
under ESEA? What has your connection been with that?
A This last fall the school systems were asked if
they wished, present programs in the areas of innovation
for funding under Title III of ESEA, and I was one of a
panel of four educators who evaluated the programs and made
recommendations to the State Department of Education for
furtherance of their wishes. And of course we evaluated
those which we thought were worthwhile and those which we
thought needed more work.
Q And you were making your recommendations to the
State Board of Education?
A Yes, through the State Department of Education.
Q You were not directly involved with the operation
of the programs in the school system?
A Not in the school systems, no, sir.
Q When were you first in Winston-Salem with connec
tion with this particular assignment?
A Two weeks ago yesterday.
Q That would be Wednesday, January 7th?
A I don't remember the dote. I left my calendar in
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my other coat, I'm sorry. I was here for two days that
week.
Q Two full days?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did you see and what did you do while you
were here?
A You mean two weeks ago?
Q Yes.
A I met with Mr. Stein and Mr. Chambers - he was
here part of the time. I met the Rev. Mr. McMillan, Dr.
Jackson, and most of the time I studied the data and spent
some time looking at schools.
Q How much time did you spend looking at schools?
A About a day, Mr. Womble, altogether, two weeks
ago.
Q Who took you around to trie schools?
A Dr. Jackson took me to a few, and the Rev. Mr.
McMillan took me to several.
Q Which ones did you see?
A I saw the Carver School, Carver Crest, 14th Street
School—
Q Wait Just a minute. All right.
A Atkins, Skyland, Kennedy Junior High, Brown
Elementary, North Elementary, Kimberly Park, Paisley Junior
High—
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- 8 8 8 -
Q Wait Just a minute. Kennedy, Brown, North Elemen
tary and Kimberly Park?
A Yes. I ’m sorry; these are in illogical order.
They're in the order which I saw them and made a few notes.
Q What's that?
A Kimberly Park, Paisley, Lowrance, Hanes, Brunson,
Whitaker and Reynolds. Those are the schools I saw two
weeks ago.
Q How many did you go in?
A None.
Q In other words, you Just rolled by?
A Drove by; stopped; looked around, yes, sir.
Q Did you talk with anyone else while you were here
on that occasion?
A Two weeks ago?
Q Yes.
A Not except in the area of occasional pleasantries,
no, I didn’t, or confer with anybody except those I have
mentioned.
Q When were you next in Winston-Salem?
A Wednesday of this week.
u What time did you arrive?
A 1:48 p.m.
Q Your plane was on time then?
A Yes, sir. That's right. That’s the only plane,
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isn't it, the one from Newark, yes, sir.
Q Now, who have you seen and what have you done
since your arrival here with respect to this matter?
A I have looked at more schools; I have continued
conferring with the attorneys in the case. I guess that's
about it, Mr. Womble.
Q You haven't talked to anyone else except the
attorneys this time?
A I talked with Mr. Friend on the school adminis
trative staff briefly on the phone - I think it was yester
day morning, and I think that's it. I talked with Mi'. John
Shields in Winston last night briefly. My purpose was to
find out when my friend Dr. Brazille was coming to town
and where he was going to be staying so I could say hello
to him.
Q Those are the only ones you talked to?
A Yes. I'm trying to think, but I've been quite
busy. It doesn't sound like it. When you're running around
in a car and talking to a couple people, but I've really
been quite busy.
Q What other schools have you seen this trip?
A Yesterday I spent several hours doing the same
sort of thing I did two weeks ago. I saw Mineral Springs
Junior Hign - and I'm missing a note here, excuse me just
a second. Yes, I saw Mineral Springs Junior High, North
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ForsythSenior High School, Northwest Junior High School,
Prince Ibraham, Ardmore Elementary School, Moore Elementary
School, Dalton Junior High School, Bolton Elementary School,
Parkland High, Griffith Junior High and Elementary, Clemmons,
South Park, Mebane Elementary, Anderson Junior-Senior High—
Q Wait just a moment.
A I'm sorry.
Q Mebane and then what?
A Anderson Junior-Senior High, Diggs - I think I
said South Park. I believe that’s it, Mr. Womble.
Q Now, who took you around yesterday?
A Yesterday there was a gentleman named Mr. Smith,
Mr. Charles Smith.
Q Was he the only one accompanying you?
A While we looked at the schools, yes, sir.
Q Were you accompanied by somebody else during the
rest of the day in connection with this?
A No. I worked yesterday in my motel room on the
maps and the data, and looked at the schools in the afternoor
with Mr. Smith.
Q And you mentioned Mineral Springs Junior High.
How about Mineral Springs Elementary?
A Yes, sir. Didn’t I mention that? I’m sorry.
Q Did you go in any of these schools?
A No, sir.
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Q Did you go by the school administrative office?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ask for or talk to anyone else on the
school administrative staff other than Mr. Friend?
A I talked only with Mr. Friend on the school
administrative staff. He was very friendly and he suggested
that we try to get together and chat more. He suggested
that he would ask - I think - Mr. Blevins to join us, and I
told him I would be around, then I would call him back in
the afternoon. I did so, and he got tied up ana we were
not able to get together. I fully understand that the
school administrative staff has been fantastically busy
though for the last two days with the faculty desegregation.
Q But they did indicate a willingness to see you?
A Oh, yes. I have never had any difficulty whatever
relating to my own fellow professionals in the field. I
have no anticipation of being turned down.
Q What did you understand your assignment to be?
Mil. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I believe we're getting
into a new area.
THE COURT: I just hated to interrupt you. I know
there's a certain continuity. When you get to a point—
MR. WOMBLE: This would be a good time.
THE COURT: While it's on my mind, Dr. Larsen,
it has been suggested that the Court should visit some
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1 of these schools. I understand that you went to the
schools, some of them. What in particular were you
trying to evaluate? I want to see so I'll know if it
will be helpful to me or not.
THE WITNESS: What I was trying to see, Your
Honor, was the general conditions of the plants, the
general area in which the school plants reside in
relationship to the neighborhoods, what I could observe
of the kind of maintenance the school plants are
receiving, outside maintenance, their relationship to
each other - so that when I look at a map, I could
form a mental picture of where the school sits and
what it looks like. I wasn't asked, but I might
comment that I found that with perhaps one exception
or two exceptions, the plants seem to be in good order,
maintenance, sound, and care has been taken in this
school district. Some adequate facilities and some
fine facilities. I was not there looking at curriculum;
I was not there observing instruction. Of course, I
would have visited the classes, but that was not my
purpose.
q (By Hr. Womble) But even where you have such a
short time to analyze a school district, you do find it
important, do you not, to at least go by and see as many
of the schools as you can?
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A Yes, I think so. It has limited value. I read
the school survey report made by the North Carolina Depart
ment of Education in 1964. I read the report written by
Mr. Ward and submitted to the Board, I believe, in '66, on
survey and planning, and I read the Peabody report done
last spring. And I had from those three sources a fairly
good picture of the capacity for the buildings, the years
of their construction, the conditions, the site acreages,
and this type of thing. So I wasn’t Just looking at schools
completely blindly, Mr. Womble. That data was available to
me, and I had studied it.
Q How much time did it take yesterday to get around
to see the schools that you have listed?
A We left right after lunch before the court re
convened, and we continued until it was too dark to see -
5:30, 6:30, something like that.
Q How much time did you spend visiting the schools
that you listed as having gone by or seen when you were here
previously?
A Very much the same amount of time, Mr. Womble.
It was from after lunch until about dark.
Q So you did feel that it was important to spend
what would amount to a full day's time out of the short time
that you’ve had with reference to this system to go by and
see these schools, didn't you?
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A I think it's important. I am not always— I have
talked to colleagues who have done this - I mean who have
studied the school systems, and it is important; it is of
limited importance. If I have only a short amount of time,
studying the data, studying the recommendations made by the
Board and studying the maps is perhaps— the relevancy is
more important, but I try to do as much of both as I can.
Q You wouldn’t call what you’ve had with the
Winston-Salem system a large amount of time, would you?
A No, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: I think that' s at a good point, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Come down, D r . Larsen.
I don't know about tlxis getting into a place to eat.
We will Just recess until 2:00 o ’clock, with the
understanding that if we cannot all make it back just
at that time, that there will be some short lee-way
then. You might have some trouble.
Let’s take a recess until 2:00 o ’clock.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock p.m.)
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-895-
AFTERMOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, Dr. Larsen, would you come
back to the stand, please?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, what assignment were
you given in connection with the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County school system by Mr. Stein or Mr. Chambers, whoever
gave you your assignment? Who gave you your assignment?
A Mr. Chambers and Mr. Stein together.
G What was that assignment?
A To study the data in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County school system, its present state of organization,
administrative organization, with particular reference to
assignment by schools and the racial pattern, to reach
whatever relevant conclusions I could, and to in a general
way point to an approach that the school district could be
reconstituted to increase the level of desegregation.
Q Was quality of education involved in your assign
ment at all?
A It always is from my point of view, yes, sir,
definitely.
Q Your background is in education, isn't it?
A Yes, sir. Education administration.
Q The matter of assignment of pupils to create a
specific racial mix is just a matter of numbers, isn't it?
A I believe that we have enough—
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Q Just answer my question, please, sir.
A Would you repeat it then, please, I;ir. Womble?
Q I say the matter of assignment of pupils to
achieve a particular racial mix was Just a matter of numbers
isn't it?
A Putting numbers together.
Q And has nothing to do with education?
A Yes, it does.
Q The assignment of pupils simply to achieve a
particular racial mix?
A I believe it does have something to do with
education.
Q Did you understand that a part of your assignment
was to improve the quality of education in the Winston-Salem,
Forsyth County system?
A Yes.
Q By achieving a given racial mix?
A By achieving desegregation.
Q To you desegregation means a particular- racial
mix, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q So your assignment, as you conceive it, to improve
education in Winston-Salem/Forsyth County, or to make
recommendations for the improvement of education in Forsyth
County, was related solely to the matter of racial mix?
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A In those terms, yes.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, in connection with your study of
the local system, you testified that you made visits to see
the schools that you visited. You went by those schools;
you didn’t go in. And that you studied certain other data,
or certain data, that was made available to you. What did
you study?
A The basic data was that contained in the extensive
answers to interrogatories served on defendants January 10th,
1969, which consisted of some sixteen exhibits. Do you want
me to read what each of the exhibits was, Mr. Womble?
Q No, that’s not necessary. Is that all you studied? i
A You mean that's all I studied in data form?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes, basically the exhibits in the case that we
had. If I had needed more data, I would have requested it
from the school system administration.
Q You did not study the answers to the second set
of interrogatories?
A You will pardon my ignorance to legal terms. I
don’t know what the second set of interrogatories were.
Q What was the date of those you referred to?
A I believe these were January 10th, '69. And I
don't recall legal documents by title, Mr. Womble. I studied
all the projected enrollments for the ’69-70 school year for
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each building in the system. I studied the various surveys,
as I mentioned before, that had been made of the system up
to and including the Peabody study of last spring, and
yesterday afternoon, as I mentioned - as Mr. Stein mentioned
I was given the new enrollment figures as of December of
this school year.
Q Did your study include a study of the Title I
programs that are in effect in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County School System?
A Mot specifically. I did review what I saw about
them. I did not reach any conclusions; I did not evaluate
them, if this is what you mean.
Q Do you know what schools those programs are being
given in?
A The target schools? No, I could not give you the
list of the target schools, no, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the "Project Read"?
A It's a Title I project for helping disadvantaged
youngsters, I assume.
Q Do you know that that is a program that is an
individualized reading program for children in the first
six grades?
A I've seen it elsewhere, and that's what it is,
yes, very often the primary years.
Q Are you familiar with a text known as "Open High-
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ways"?
A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with any Title I program that is
a specialized program to teach reading to first grade
students?
A In Winston-Salem, do you mean, Mr. Womble?
Q Yes, are you familiar with that program at all?
A No.
Q Are you familiar with the special art education
program in the Winston-Salem school system under Title I?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know that in the target areas and in these
schools where the Title I program is available that it
includes special pupil personnel services, such as home
visits, counseling and psychological evaluations, health
and welfare services?
A No, I am not familiar with it.
Q Are you familiar with the special compensatory
education program, or fortification program, at the junior
high school level?
A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the special assistant
principal for instruction that has been added to the staff
at Atkins High School under the Title I program?
A No, sir.
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Q Are you familiar with the comprehensive school
improvement project by teacher aids, consultant services,
and special materials and equipment?
A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the tutorial program?
A Mo, sir. In each question you are referring to
the Winston-Salem Schools, is this true?
Q Yes. Did you know that the Title I programs in
the local school system include the following as project
schools: Fairview, Kimberly Park, Brown, Carver Crest,
North, Skyland, 14th Street, Diggs, Lowrance, Mebane, Easton
and the Children’s Home?
A The first part of your question, Mr. Womble? I
was listening to the schools. Do I know that these are
target schools?
Q That they are schools in which Title I projects
are being conducted?
A Not specifically, I did not know that.
Q And did you know that the secondary project, or
the project schools at the secondary level, include Hanes
Junior High, Paisley Junior High, Anderson Junior-Senior,
Kennedy Junior, end Atkins Senior High?
A I did not know that specifically. I realize, of
course, that target schools are schools that are in poverty
areas; if you asked me which ones they were, that—
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THE COURT: Let me ask you this, while it’s on my
mind. Mow, you testified that in certain areas - like
Latin - if you have this racial mix that you recommend,
that those programs could be furthered. What do you
say about Title I programs? Would a racial mix further
the instruction in a Title I program, or would it
hinder it, or what do you say?
THE WITNESS: I don't see that it would hinder
it, Your Honor. I think we could still have the schools;
that Mr. Womble has mentioned there, in target residen
tial areas, and they would still have needy disadvan
taged youngsters in them, and many of these programs
could continue. I have some concerns about compensa
tory education, as such. We are presently studying
the effects of Title I progr<uns in a research manner,
and the results are not in yet. So I cannot testify
as to what results show on such worthy projects as Mr.
Womble cites, as to whether -;hey are really doing the
job we want them to do or not. There are some indica
tions that these kin s of compensatory programs in all
black schools located in poverty areas are not doing
the job - are not having the effects we hoped they
would have. I wish I could say they were, but the
research is not too encouraging in this regard. I
think that by putting youngsters, black and white,
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together so that the white youngsters are always in the
majority, which is quite possible here, that the
general level will rise.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: We'll get to that part a little bit
later.
Q (By Mr. Womble) On the matter that the Judge
first asked you about, do you know what the basis for
qualification is for Title I programs as far as a child is
concerned?
A He must be in a poverty area and this type of
thing. I could not spell it out specifically.
Q He must reside in a poverty area?
A Yes. I find this number of schools a little dis
tressing. I know it's a concern of the school system that
you have this many schools qualifying for Title I, a lot of
kids.
Q Dr. Larsen, do you know what tye annual cost per
child is in the local public school system?
A Not specifically. I have heard - I believe in a
piece of testimony - I believe it's in the neighborhood of
five hundred; I don't recall the precise amount.
Q Do you know what the cost per child is for the
compensatory education program, Title I?
A It would be higher, of course.
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Q I ’m talking about Just that part.
A No, I did not.
Q So you didn’t know that that exceeds $300.00 per
child per year?
A That would be about standard, I would think.
Q So that the amount of money that is being devoted
to other places as well as here for these compensatory
educational programs is more than half again the total
amount that is being spent for children for public education
generally?
A -‘•his is typical, yes, sir.
Q Money is not everything,, but that kind of money
properly used can be of real benefit in the education of a
child, can it not, Dr. Larsen?
A We do not know, Mr. Womble. I wish we did. We
do not know. There are some indications that if you put a
lot more money into an all black school in a poverty area,
whether or not this will raise the level of the youngsters
in that school, we Just do not know. And there are indica
tions that it may not.
Q Does it help the white child?
A Pardon?
Q Does it help the white child?
A We don't know that either.
Q The first $500.00 that is spent, is that worth-
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A Any money that is spent is worthwhile, Mr. Womble.
What I was saying—
Q You’re not saying that the .£300.00 does not add
to the educational program for the children who receive it,
do you?
A Y/e do not know. This needs to be researched.
Q So you certainly— you would think that it would
add to it, wouldn't you?
A Ordinarily, yes. This is one of the surprises
we are having to research.
q i thought you said you didn't know what the
answer was.
A That's Just exactly it, Mr. Womble. We don’t
know if it does or not.
Q How can it be a surprise to you if you don't know?
A We had assumed it would. The surprise is that we
have no research evidence that it in fact is.
Q And you have no evidence that it in fact is not?
A That is true.
THE COURT: What you mean is you don't know
whether it's worth $300.00 or not; you know it's worth
something, don't you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, we certainly hope so.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, if in a system such as the
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Winston-Salem/Forsyth County system, where the total amount
of money appropriated for compensatory education programs
is in the neighborhood of nine hundred thousand dollars a
year, and it is utilized to provide these programs in the
schools that I named a few moments ago, the children who
are receiving the benefits of that program in those schools
would either have to stay in those schools to receive the
benefits, or the money would have to be spread around to
other schools to follow the children and to provide teachers
in a wider number of schools in order for them to receive
benefits, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir, that is your choice.
Q And if you can give a compensatory reading course
to twenty children in - we will say - Diggs School with one
teacher and maybe a teacher's aid, and you then send six of
those children to some other school where that program is
not being given now, and keep seven and send seven to some
other school where that program is not being given now, you
either lose the opportunity for those children who are moved
out to receive that program, or you have to - with the same
money - attempt to employ three teachers for what you have
been employing one, don't you?
A Put in those terms, yes.
Q That's about what it works out to, if you were
going to do it practically, isn't it?
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A Yes. In those terms, yes, sir.
Q And what it means Is that you can’t do as much
with the same money as you can if you have your children
concentrated in schools located in the poverty areas where
those children live. Isn’t that right?
A This is true. We are assuming - we must assume -
that the school to which a child goes has a program that
meets his needs.
Q Why are you assuming that?
A Because you construct the program to meet the
child's needs. Perhaps you could take a child out of the
poverty area, or desegregate his school in the poverty area,
his needs are being met by other means along with compensa
tory education.
Q But you can't carry that compensatory education
throughout the system. If it's not effectively concentrated
in a few schools, it is going to be much less effective
spread through the system, isn't it?
A Not necessarily, Mr. Womble. I know of no educa
tor who recommends keeping black schools black, keeping
them in a poverty school area.
Q I'm not talking about black schools; I'm talking
about children who need compensatory education.
A The schools that you read to me with one or two
exceptions were all black schools.
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Q That is because those are the children that need
compensatory education, isn't it?
A That's precisely it, and that's what we're talking
about.
Q Now, from the standpoint of an educator and not
from the standpoint of an assignment to perform a mathema
tical racial mix, is it educationally sound, Dr. Larsen, to
take children out of these schools that I have mentioned
between now and June of this year, from these schools where
they are getting this program, and to send them into other
schools in this system for the balance of this school year -
as an educator?
A As an educator, Mr. Womble, I think it is com
pletely sound to do so, yes, sir.
Q And that's your professional opinion?
A Yes, sir.
Q During the past several years, you have moved
several times, haven't you, Dr. Larsen?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever move your child in the middle of a
semester from one school to another?
A Twice, I think, Mr. Womble.
Q What month of the year?
A One time we moved in November, and another time
we moved in April.
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Q And. y o u m o v ed y o u r f a m i l y a s w e l l a s y o u r s e l f a t
t h a t t i m e o f y e a r ?
A Y e s , s i r . W hen t h e y w e r e i n e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l .
Q Y ou d i d n o t l e a v e th e m t o f i n i s h t h e s e m e s t e r ?
A N o , s i r .
Q D id y o u h a v e a n y a l t e r n a t i v e a b o u t i t ? C o u ld y o u
h a v e l e f t th e m t o f i n i s h t h e s e m e s t e r ?
A I f e l t t h a t i t w a s b e s t f o r t h e f a m i l y t o s t a y
t o g e t h e r , a n d s o w e l e f t t o g e t h e r .
q S o y o u p u l l e d th e m o u t o f s c h o o l i n t h e m id d le o f
a s e m e s t e r ?
A Y e s , s i r .
q A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e M o d e l C i t i e s P r o g r a m ?
A N o , s i r , t h a t i s n o t my f i e l d o f c o m p e t e n c e , a n d
I am n o t f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e p r o g r a n , t h e M o d e l C i t i e s P r o g r a m ,
i n W in s t o n - S a l e m .
Q Y ou d o n ’ t k n ow t h a t i n W in s t o n - S a l e m , t h e r e i s a
p l a n i n t h e a r e a t h a t h a s b e e n d e s i g n a t e d a s t h e M o d e l C i t i e r
a r e a , w h ic h l i e s e a s t a n d w e s t o f P a t t e r s o n A v e n u e - d o y o u
k n ow w h e r e P a t t e r s o n A v e n u e i s ?
A N o , s i r .
Q Y ou d o n ' t k n ow t h a t t h e r e i s a p r o g r a m i n t h a t
p a r t o f t h e C i t y o f W in s t o n - S a le m t o e x p e n d v e r y s u b s t a n t i a l
su m s o f m o n ey t o p r o v i d e a m o d e l o f a n e d u c a t i o n a l p r o g r a m
f o r t h e p e o p l e i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p a r t o f to w n ?
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A I know no tiling about that model.
Q And regardless of what that program might be,
it would be your Judgment, would it, that if that area is
an area in which blacks live exclusively or almost exclusive
ly, the children of that area should be required to go
elsewhere to school to achieve a racial mix?
A I would suggest and recommend that the children
living there attend desegregated schools, whether the school
is located there or elsewhere.
0 Regardless of where the children or where the
parents wanted them to go?
A I don't think that is necessarily contradictory,
Mr. Womble.
Q What I'm asking is, if you had responsibility for
determining where a child would go to school, or had
responsibility for determining what the law should be, you
would require a child to go to a school to achieve a racial
mix for the benefit of the educational program of that
child, regardless of what the parents of the child or the
child might desire. Is that correct?
A Basically it is. It doesn't reflect my view, but
I would also say - and I did on direct testimony, I believe -
I would assign the child to the school nearest his home as
possible, as long as that school can be desegregated.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, you were discussing programs in
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certain high schools, and as I recall, you stated at the
outset of your testimony that you recognized that course
offerings would be available in a school in this system if
there were a demonstrated desire among the students, a
request for a particular course and interest for a particu
lar course?
A If there were enough of them to warrant offering
the course, yes, sir.
Q And you said that you were satisfied that - I
believe the term that you used was - that you had great
confidence that these offerings would be made available at
all schools if they were desegregated. That's what you
said, wasn't it?
A I believe I said I had great confidence that the
offerings could. be taken - would te made available in all
schools if they were desegregated, from the point of view
that then there would be enough takers in each school to
warrant giving the course. The difference is the number of
takers.
G And so you are saying that if blacks were in ail
of the schools, there would be enough takers so that these
programs, in your opinion, would be available in all these
schools?
A Is that a question, Mr. Y/omble?
Q Is that what you are saying?
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A Basically, yes. They would have an opportunity
then.
Q I presume you were looking at Exhibit 7, were you?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you gave the testimony about the course
offerings in the high schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dramatics I is offered at Anderson, which is a
black or predominantly black school, isn't it?
A Did I mention Dramatics I?
Q You didn't, but I did.
A I don’t have the exhibit in front of me; I just
have some notes from it.
Q Do you have the exhibit there?
A No, sir.
Q Well, will you take my word for it then that
Dramatics I is offered at Anderson, Parkland and Reynolds?
A Yes, sir, I ’ll take your word for that.
Q It is not offered at Atkins, Carver, East Forsyth,
Mount Tabor, North Forsyth, or West?
A I'll take your word for it; I don't have the
exhibit.
Q Now, what would make you think that by integrating
all those high schools, Dramatics I would be offered at all
of those schools?
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A What would make me think that?
Q Yes.
A I believe that if there are enough takers that
the school system would offer Dramatics I.
Q Isn't it obvious from this that there are not
enough takers?
A Yes.
Q Isn’t it obvious to you that if you send blacks
into schools where they are not now, that that is not going
to necessarily create a situation where there will be
enough takers? If there are not enough takers at North
Forsyth now, why would sending more blacks in there result
in a demand for Dramatics I?
A I can’t testify on Dramatics I. I don't know
what the reason is. Maybe they don’t have a teacher for it.
Q Let's take any of the others then. What was the
first one on your list?
A I believe I mentioned Journalism II, Speech I and
II.
Q I say what’s the first one? Let’s take Journalism
A Journalism II, yes.
Q Journalism II is now offered at Parkland—
MR. VOMBLE: I ’m sorry, Your Honor; this is
Exhibit 7 that we are referring to. It’s Exhibit 7
attached to an answer to an interrogatory. Unless you
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have the interrogatories—
THE COURT: I was going to follow the school with
your 26.
MR. WOMBLE: I thought you were looking for this
particular one.
THE COURT: I kind of have in mind now what the
pupil population - the majority is, and it helps me
some when I look at this. I will get it. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Dr. Larsen, Journalism II
is offered at Parkland, Reynolds and Y/est, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q It is not offered at North Forsyth, Mount Tabor,
East Forsyth, Carver, Atkins or Anderson?
A That's right. It's offered at Parkland, Reynolds
and West.
Q Is there any rational basis for concluding that
the reassignment of children from Anderson, Atkins or
Carver to East Forsyth, Mount Tabor or North Forsyth would
result in a demand for Journalism II?
A It might.
Q But there's no reason for concluding that it
would, is there? It might or it might not?
A That's right. My point is it might; that's right.
Q And the same is true of all these others, isn't
it?
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A Yes. The point, Kr. V/omble - if I may be permitted
to make it - may I make the point again if I didn't make it
clearly the first time, that there is a cumulative effect,
there are many courses that are offeree in some or ail of
the white schools but not in any of the black schools.
This is the point, how, maybe 1 did not make it too clearly
by not giving examples.
Q The examples you gave - I don't think they said
what you just said.
A I think they did, sir.
G Of course, if you sent all of the children in all
of the schools in Forsyth County to one school, there would
be a demand for all of the courses that you can think of,
I guess?
A You wDuld have an educational park, wouldn't you,
Kr. Womb lei
Q And t iat wouia be a substantially oversized school,
wouldn't it?
A I did not recommend that.
u Isn't it true, hr. Larsen, that your statement
that you had great confidence that these courses would be
offered at ail schools if desegregated, is an exaggerated
statement of what can be expected:’
A ho, I don't think it is an exaggerated statement,
Fir. Womble. I think thai if all schools at the high school
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level were desegregated, that there would be more black
youngsters taking more of these courses than they are now.
Q That isn't what your testimony is, is it?
A If that is not precisely what I said - I hope it
is - my meaning. I try to give examples of where it is not
true now, and I hope that when the schools are desegregated, |
I hope that there are more black youngsters taking these
courses than there are now.
Q Now, are you familiar with the proposal that the
local school system had to close Carver Junior and Senior
High Schools, and to transfer those pupils to Walkertown
Junior High and East Forsyth?
A /an I familiar with it? I did read tills, yes, sir.
1 don't remember in what soui'ce, but I did read this.
Q And of the proposal to close Anderson High School
and to reassign those pupils to Parkland?
A I don't remember seeing that, no, sir. I
remember seeing some reference in one of these surveys about
the Carver situation.
Q Nov/, hr. Larsen, let's review this proposal that
you are making this morning, and you have made tliis after
being in tills community about - net over a total of four
days?
A Being in the community four days, that's correct.
Q And without having talked with any of the school
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a d m in i s t r a t o r s ?
A T h a t ' s a q u e s t i o n ?
Q Y e s , s i r .
A T h e a n s w e r i s y e s .
Q And w i t h o u t h a v i n g r e v i e w e d w i t h th e m t h e t r a n s
p o r t a t i o n p a t t e r n i n t h e c o m m u n ity , o r w i t h a n y b o d y , i s
t h a t r i g h t ?
A Y e s .
G Do y o u know t h e s i z e o f t h i s c o u n t y ?
A N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y .
Q Do y o u w a n t t o t a k e t h i s r u l e r a n d s e e h ew f a r i t
i s f r o m t h e f a r t h e r e s t r e a c h e s o n t h e w e s t t o t h e e a s t e r n
b o u n d a r y ?
A I ' d b e g l a d t o .
Q H ave y o u d o n e i t b e f o r e ?
A N o , s i r .
Q W e l l , w o u ld y o u d o i t now ?
A T w e n t y - s i x m i l e s .
G Y ou f i g u r e a p p r o x i m a t e l y t w e n t y - s i x *> t w e n t y -
s e v e n m i l e s a c r o s s ?
A Y e s .
G How a b o u t fr o m t h e s o u t h e r n m o s t p a r t t o t h e
n o r t h e r n m o s t p a r t ?
A A b o u t t w e n t y . I s t h a t a p p r o x i m a t e l y r i g h t ?
S o a p p r o x i m a t e l y how m any s q u a r e m i l e s w o u ld y o u
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say there would be in this county?
A Oh, Fir. Wombie, my arithmetic—
MR. STEIN: We object to the question, Your Honor,
at any rate, whatevei’ it was. He's asking him to
multiply these— I think it's entirely irrelevant.
THE COURT: I'll take judicial notice that the
multiplication— I’ll just take judicial notice of
that.
Q (3y Mr. Wombie) It is approximately then some twenty
six or seven miles across, and nineteen or twenty miles from
north to south at the widest points?
A Yes, in a quiet measurement that 1 just made.
Q And more or less rectangular in shape, is that
right?
A Yes, sir’.
Q .jo that would be in excess of four hundred square
miles?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you realize the number of pupils involved in
this system, how many pupils?
A A few more than fifty thousand.
U And how many schools?
A Sixty some. Forty-two elementary schools, nine
senior high schools, seventeen junior high schools.
Q Now, your Disxrict No. 1—
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A Yes, sir.
Q That you proposed would cover what part of the
county?
A The present North, East and Carver and Atkins
High School districts. It would cover the upper northeast
part of the county.
Q As a matter of fact, it would cover the entire
northern part of the county, wouldn’t it, from east to west?
A It wouldn't go down this far.
Q I said the entire northern part, all the way
across to the west boundary?
A Yes, sir.
Q And on the eastern side, it would go from north
to south, so that it would actually cover approximately
half or more than half of the entire county, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you had two groupings, I believe, in this
district?
A Yes, sir.
Q Your first gx-cuping of elementary schools would
cover which schools?
A Skyland, Petree, and Sedge Garden. This right
here (indicating on map).
Q That would cover an area from east to west of how
many miles?
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A Five to five and a half
Q Nine miles, isn't it, Dr. Larsen?
A Two inches to the mile - yes.
Q Did you include Sedge Garden?
A Yes, I included Sedge Garden. Yes. Now, the
Board may want to bring some of these up into Kernersville.
I did not specify the exact number in Sedge Garden for that
reason.
Q That school may be full, may it not?
A Of course.
Q So you may not be able to bring them up?
A This is why I tried to state that the school
administration may adjust this, and that the youngsters in
Sedge Garden right now may not be precisely the same as the
youngsters will be when they make the switch. They are
quite able to adjust those things, I assume. So it may not
go all the way to the end.
Q Right now it does, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's the zone and it's nine miles across, isn't
it?
A Yes.
Q And from north to south, assuming that the child
ren in Petree come from midway between Walkertown and Petree
south, that district is how long according to your proposal?
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A About seven, isn't it? I'm sorry. A little over
six.
Q About six miles?
A Yes. If we came all the way to the bottom again,
that has to do with the population in this particular area.
Q You understand that the children who are assigned
to Sedge Garden are any children who live in this area?
A I would assume that, yes.
Q That was your assumption in making this study,
wasn't it?
A It would have to be.
Q Now, the distances to which you testified are
straight-line distances, according to the ruler, aren't
they?
A That's right.
Q And do not take into account the mileage that
would be covered by following roads that are on the ground?
A That's quite true. And I tried to make that
clear, that this would be subject to adjustment, and that
you would assign the youngsters to the school nearest to
their home, and also according to race, which does not
necessarily have to be contradictory. Now, I don't know,
there may be black people living out here.
Q Well, look at Exhibit 26 and see what the school
population of Sedge Garden is.
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-921-
A There are presently 7 black children and 935 white
children.
Q Go you would assume from tnat then that there are
very few black children iiving in this area, would you?
A That's right.
Q Now, what is the enrollment at Petree?
A A3 black, 280 white.
Q That's at Petree?
A That is a desegregateu school under my definition,
l believe it was.
G Incidentally, your definition is just your
definition, isn't it?
A Yes, sir. I didn't give anybody else the crecit.
G how, what is tiie enrollment at Skyland?
A 433 Negro children, all block.
Q Now, would you assume from the figures you just
read that the residential pattern indicates a concentration
of black citizens in this area around and west of Skyland,
with a small number of blacks living between Skyland and
Petree?
A Yes, sir.
Q And from the map, you can tell, can you not, that
immediately north of Skyland is a substantially undeveloped
area?
A Yes, sir.
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Q And south of Skyland on both sides of Interstate
do, it is a relatively undeveloped area, isn’t it?
A Yes, sir.
Q if you were going to implement your plan, I would
appreciate it if you would show us in numbers how you would
do it. In oxher words, can you take these numbers now and
just on a piece of paper show us—
A I may have done that, Fir. Womble. If you will
give me ci nii nute, I think I may have done this.
A Show us the children by race who would be at each
of those schools.
A No, I can’t do that. I find that very difficult
to do. i can say this, that in Group A, which is the
Skyland, Petrec and Sedge Garden, that there would be 467
children, 67 black and about 1,200 white. Now, I do not
know precisely where they are living except in the general—
Q I'm not asking you where they are living; I am
asking you how many children you wind up with whixe and how
many children you end up with black at each school?
A You have a percentage about three td one white
over black in the three schools now. So if you combine the
three schools and desegregate at each one, it would come out
approximately to that amount.
Q All r^ght. Let's follow it through now.
A You would have a majority white to minority Negro
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in each of the three schools
0 So you would have then approximately - to use r
figures, which might make it a little simpler - let’s say
that then you would wind up with 500 children at Skyland,
in round figures—
A Yes.
Q Of whom you would expect 125 to be black?
A In round figures, yes. That comes out about that,
doesn't it? Yes.
Q And 575 to he white. At Petree, again to use
round figures, let's say it would be 320, divide that by
four, that would be 80 black and 240 white, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then at Sedge Garden, there would be 950; you
would have roughly 235 black and 715 white?
A Yes. We are pinpointing to make a point, of
course, the range. There is a range there, as you recall,
for elementary school, of— We don't have to be that prec
at each school. We can go from 12 percent to 32 percent,
something like that, black at each school. We pick the
precise part in the middle. Do you understand what I'm
trying to tell you?
Q
children
You've go so many white children and so many black
in this area though?
A One of the three schools could have the lowest
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range of the number of black, which of course would make
one of the others have the highest range.
Q Dr. Larsen, looking at Skyland with 500 children
there now—
A Yes, sir.
Q All black.
A Yes.
Q They all come from this Immediate vicinity,
because there is very little residential area except in
the vicinity immediately west of the school?
A Yes.
Q So practically all of them come from west of the
school?
A Yes.
0 Mow, explain to me under your plan - applying
your proposal of proximity to school—
A Yes.
Q And the race—
A Yes.
Q Which of the 575 black children now attending
Skyland School you would send to Sedge Garden or Detree?
A I don't know. If you’re asking me which precise
youngsters—
Q I don't know them either. I'm talking about
geography. This is where they live, west of the school?
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A Yes, sir.
Q From what area - these are all black, so you want
to get 125 black to go to Skyland?
A That's right.
0. According to your formula, where do you get them
from?
A Right here (indicating). You mean white now?
Q I'm talking about black; they're all black in
this area.
A You want the black people that go to Skyland?
Q The 125 black that you would send to Skyland.
A Yes.
Q Would you pick them from the closest proximity
to the school, or from the western area of the zon^ of the
school attendance zone, further west from the school?
A I would probably start the other way, Mr. V/omble,
and pick from my black people in Petree and Sedge Garden
that we need there, according to the ratio you worked out.
I would pick those to travel the least distance from the
perhaps eastern part of the Skyland District to go out
there, and then pull in from the west for Sedge Garden. Is
this what you're getting at? I would probably do those
(indicating on map).
Q That's what I'm getting at. From where would you
choose the 125 blacks that you would assign to Skyland -
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assuming that there are 500 black children from this area
right around and immediately west of Skyland who are now
attending that school?
A I don't know from where I would choose them.
Q It would be very difficult, wouldn't it?
A You mean if you were to identify precise streets
that would go to Skyland?
Q No. Let's get at it this way; maybe this will
clear it up. You have 500 children in this area who are
going to Skyland?
A Yes.
Q That's just immediately north and south of Skyland
and west of Skyland in a very small area?
A Yes, sir.
0 Now, 375 of those children approximately - accord
ing to your plan - will have to be moved away from their
neighborhood and sent to Petree or Sedge Garden?
A That’s quite correct.
Q Are you going to send to Sedge Garden those who
live closest to Skyland, or those who live west of Skyland?
A I don't know. This would be a decision of the
administration based upon—
Q Your formula is based on race and residence, and
you said that those who were closest to the school - as long
as they fitted the racial pattern - would be assigned to a
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p a r t i c u la r s c h o o l?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, where do you get those children? How do you
make that assignment based upon your own formula?
A I tried to say, Mr. Womble - I didn't say it very
clearly apparently - 1 would first take the Negro youngsters
I needed to desegregate Sedge Garden__
Q From where?
A From that area closest to Sedge Garden. To
Petree, and from that area closest to Petree, and the rest
of the youngsters would stay in Skyland (indicating on map),
-the rest of the Negro youngsters.
Q And with 500 children now attending Skyland,
immediately north and south and west of Skyland, you will
then be taking children from west of Skyland__
A Yes.
Q By Skyland—
A I'd go right by it.
Q And send them - some to Petree, which would be
approximately—
A Two miles.
Q Two miles from where they live?
A Yes.
Q And others you would send to Sedge Garden, which
would be over five miles from where they live?
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A That's right.
Q And now those children are going to school within
not more than five or six blocks of where they live?
A That is quite correct; that is precisely right.
Q And in reverse, you would do the same thing with
the white children who are now attending Petree and hedge
Garden?
A Yes. The other alternative, Mr. Womble, would
be to close Skyland, and I am not ready to do that imme
diately.
Q Dr. Larsen, what would your proposal have to say
with respect to the assignment of pupils to the junior high
schools in District 1?
A I did not spell it out, Mr. Womble.
u Would you please spell it out?
A I spelled it out to the degree that a feeder
system should be established by the administration, feeding
from the elementary schools into the junior and senior high
schools in such a way that desegregation of secondary edu
cation is accomplished. I went no farther than that state
ment.
Q Anyone could say that, couldn't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, could you explain to us what it means? Could
you show me?
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A No, sir, I have not worked that out. I have not
worked that out. You have enough black youngsters and
white youngsters in the district that the Junbr and senior
high schools could be desegregated through a feeder system.
Q And you have 250 square miles involved, don't you?
A I don't know the precise figures, but that's
about right.
Q And you did not have it worked out as to how you
would feed either to the Junior high schools or the high
schools?
A No, I did not work that out.
Q For District 1 or District 2 either one?
A I did not have time to work out the complete
feeder system in the secondary schools.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, your Group B included what
schools?
A Carver Elementary and Fairview, both black,
grouping it with Ibraham, Mineral Springs and Oak Summit.
Q Did you also say that you would close Brown?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why?
A Well, apparently because I— it is in the midst
of the black community there; it would be very difficult to
desegregate, and partly because it has been recommended to
be closed on different occasions.
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A Yes, sir.
Q What did you think of the appearance of the
school?
A That's a difficult question. I think it can be
closed - it's on a very small site. Eventually some of
these schools in the all black community will have to be
phased out, and it looked to me as if that would be a good
place to begin.
Q As far the environment around Drown is concerned,
it's pretty good, isn't it?
A Not bad; not bad, relatively speaking. As a
matter of fact, the administration might prefer to keep Browr
open and close perhaps one of the others, the 14th Street
perhaps.
Q What you are suggesting is to close the school
Just because it is in a black area, isn't it?
A This is quite true. What I ' m suggesting is— the
objective is to desegregate your elementary education, and
what we could call the inner city, you have about three
choices. You can induce grouping, which I tried to do,
which I think is probably the least painful; you can trans
port youngsters all over the county, and/or you can close
down some schools and take the youngsters out of that area
and house them elsewhere. I am operating from tne point of
Q D id you see th e s c h o o l?
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view that the objective is to desegregate elementary educa
tion. Now, whether it is Brown which is closed, or one of
the other oluer schools in the inner city, that I think is
a decision which the Board should make. It might be North,
it might be Fairview, it might be 14th Street, but I cannot
figure a way of desegregating Brown because of its location
wxthout taking these youngsters quite far afield, or bring
ing some in.
Q In other word , it is located in the miudle of a
residential area that is all black or practically all black?
A That's the point, Mr. Womble. Whereas Fairview is
hovering on the edges here somewhat, and v/here, as you
pointed out, Skyland is located near the edge, and as you
point out again, Brown is quite in the middle. That's the
basic reason.
Q And if you would let these children who live in
this area attend a school near their homes, Brown would be
well located, wouldn't it?
A If we were all one race, Brown would be decently
located, except it needs a larger site, as I recall, Mr.
Womble. You might have difficulty getting a larger site.
Q oo that if we were seeking to operate a school
system strictly without regard to race, Brown would be a
good location to serve those people in that area, wouldn't it?
A That is not quite what I said. I said that if we
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were all one race and we knew we had no objective of
desegregating schools, then it would be a good location
except that, again as I say, it's a small site, and you
might want to use it for a purpose other than it is being
used. It was recommended by the State Department and also
by the Peabody study to be replaced or abandoned, either in
whole or in part, as were several of the other schools in
the downtown or inner city area.
Q Dr. Larsen, in a place like the District of
Columbia, do you know what the racial mix in there?
A It’s going up to somewhere in the vicinity of
eighty percent, is it not?
Q How about the school children?
A Probably a little higher amount.
Q It's well up in the nineties, isn’t it?
A Yes, I think so.
G What in your opinion needs to be done with their
education?
A Do the best job you can. You have an all Negro
community, or what is rapidly becoming an all Negro community
you do the best job you can.
Q Do you think that you should close their schools
and send them to Maryland and Virginia to school?
A Too far, under the conditions and everything else.
That's why you’re lucky here.
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Q What is the geographic area in length from north
to south that is currently serving 14th Street, Fairview,
Carver, Oak Summit, Mineral Springs and Prince Ibraham?
THE COURT: Mr. V.omble, it's time for our after
noon break. You can go on ten or fifteen minutes more
if you want.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Approximately how far is that?
A One to two, I don't remember. Nine miles plus.
Between nine and ten, nine and a half.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, 1 think that's a good
place.
THE COURT: fou may come down for a moment,
doctor. We are going to take our afternoon recess.
All right; let's have a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Dr. Larsen, if you will
resume the stand.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, before the recess
we were talking about the area north of the center of
winston-Salem, to the north end of the county. Before
going on with that, let me ask you one further thing about
the first group, Group A, I think you had it, which was
Sedge Garden, Skyland and Petree?
A Yes, sir.
Have you made any study at all about the traffic
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-9:
patterns and routings as they relate to the proposals you
are making?
A No, sir, I have not.
Q Did you appreciate, in making your recommendation,
that if a child in the vicinity of what is known as Five
Points, where Sprague Street, V/aughtown, and Reynolds Park
Road converge, were assigned to Skyland, that in order -
and that child would be living in the western part of the
Sedge Garden District, that that child in order to get to
Skyland would have to go vestwardly on Reynolds Park Road
right by Mebane School, and then turn north and go across
Interstate 40 up to Fourth Street or Fifth Street, and then
go east - I guess he would have to go east on Fourth Street
out to the intersection of Fourth and Fifth and then come
west on Fifth Street into Skyland School, and that in doing
that he would be going twice as far as would be required for
him to go to Waughtown School or Forest Park School, and it
would take him right by Mebane School?
A Your question is was I aware of the complexity of
traffic?
Q
A
Q
were you?
A No.
That's right.
Only in a general way, Mr. Womble.
Certainly you weren't specifically aware of that,
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U And by "general way", what you mean to say, I
suppose, is that this is a much more complicated problem
than simply stating it as you have today?
A I stated it in somewhat philosophical terms, I
hope with the codicil that the Board would in achieving the
objective of desegregated schools, simply amend the plan to
work in a more smooth manner. I did not present as a
complete plan, but as an approach that could be used by
combining large high school districts into largex- districts.
Q And each suggestion carries with it its own
complications, doesn't it?
A I am sure it does, Mr. Womble.
Q Because you do have to take into account your
traffic arteries, your school capacities, your residential
patterns, and other factors, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you are suggesting that for example they
could send some of the children from Gedge Garden bchool in
the east up to - you were suggesting that, up to Kemers-
ville Elementary, and you were suggesting that that in
Kernersville is over capacity?
A I think I suggested that in response to one of
your questions under cross examination and not in the
approach itself.
u What it boils down to is you are mailing suggestions
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really without offering solutions, aren't you?
I am offering an approach which is subject to
revision.
Q Well, your approach doesn't go to the point of
being a plan which might be revised, but simply an approach
which needs revision?
A I think that's an accurate statement. I would be
pleased to work it out in more detail, given the time to do
it.
Q And it would take time, wouldn't it?
A Time and help.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, referring back to the grouping
that I believe you have designated as Group B?
A Yes, sir.
G And you testified that the length of that area,
north to south, was approximately—
A Ten miles.
Q Ten to eleven miles. Now, the distance across the
western boundary would be approximately how many miles?
A Four.
THE COURT: Now we are talking about area two?
THE WITNESS: Group B.
Mk . 'wOMBLE: Group B ana District 1 as I understood
it.
THE WITNESS: Carver, Faxrview, Ibraham.
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-937
THE COURT: I have it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, would you please explain
how you would reshuffle the assignment of the students in
Fairview, Carver, Ibraham, Mineral Springs and Oak Summit,
based upon the numbers of children attending those schools?
A My point, Mr. Womble, was that the two black
schools here are Carver and Fairview—
Q And what are their enrollments?
A Carver has approximately 450; Fairview about 750.
It may have changed in the more recent— Fairview has 695 -
has gone down a little. Carver Elementary 709.
MR. STEIN: Mr. Womble, I think Mr. Ward's testi
mony was that 200 or so of those children were pre
school children.
THE WITNESS: That's right. My figures for Carver
were 450, Mr. Womble. Now, that was from the projected
enrollments. I wonder what figure that would be
equivalent to in the new— in the December enrollment.
Has grades 1 to 6 gone up that much?
Q (By Mr. Womble) There is a kindergarten program
at Carver?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know about that?
A Yes, in general terms. I heard Mr. Ward mention
it when I was in court the other day.
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Q D id you u n d e rs ta n d t h a t t h a t i s in c lu d e d i n th e
enrollment there in the 709?
A It was not included in the previous enrollment.
It is just a statistical question. Grades 1 to 6 did not go
up from 450 to 709, I would not t ok.
Q Is your proposal one that would affect the kinder
garten children?
A No.
Q Well, let's take out 250 of the kindergarten
children. Then you have got 559, is that right?
A I think it's 459.
Q 459? Now, you have 459 at Carver?
A That's the question I was getting at.
Q You have 693 at Fairview?
A Yes.
Q What are your others?
A At Ibraham, my figures were 300 - and
checking to see if that has changed materially. That's 361
under the new figures. At Mineral Springs, I have on the
older data 866; that has gone - that’s approximately the
same, 881. Oak Summit in my original figures, I had 669.
I see it is now 687. I believe that comes out to 1929,
total of Ibraham, Mineral Springs, and Oak Summit, and I am
adding the new figures, 1152 at the two inner city schools.
Does that agree with yours?
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1 Q How many do you have at the other two?
A I have it 459 and 693 and 1152.
Q How many do you have black and how many do you
have white?
A Y/ell, Carver and Fairview are both all black;
it's 1152.
Q How, Mineral Springs?
A I did not separate. Me have 48 white children
there.
THE COURT: You come up with the figure of 1152
at Carver—
THE WITNESS: And Fairview.
THE COURT: And Fairview?
MR. WOMBLE: That's right.
THE COURT: I see.
Q (By Mr. Womble) How, if you deduct your black
children at Mineral Springs and Oak Summit—
A Yes.
Q And add those to the ones at Fairview and Carver-
A I find 30 at Oak Summit and 30 at Prince Ibr&nam
ana d0 ac Mineral Springs.
Q There are not any blacks at Prince Ibraiiam?
A That's right. We have four. We have 78 black
children at the three predominantly white schools. Does
that agree with your arithmetic?
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Q How many?
0 Yes.
A That’s 1851 white children to 1230 black children.
Does that agree with your figures?
Q Now, what does that do to your1 approach?
A It puts it out of whack, and I understood that
when I did it. It does give a majority white desegregated
setup, but it does not come within the range of desegregation.
I did that deliberately, Mr. Womble, because to bring the
white enrollment up farther to bring the ratio down, I would
have had to go out and pick up white schools at a much
greater distance, and I preferred to do this within this
range. I would not say that the Board may not want to
increase the white children in that grouping, which would
mean that they would have to go up and pick up iiural Hall or
Walkertown Elementary to add to the Griffith, and I chose
not to do that.
iHE COURT: I haven’t kept up with your figures.
You have a problem where there is a greater population
of Negro in that grouping than jives with the percentage
that you recommend?
THE WITNESS: That's right; it’s still majority
white, but the minority Negro population is larger
than I v/oulvi like to see it be.
A 73.
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THE COURT: And how much is it?
THE WITNESS: It is 1230 black to 1929 white.
Q (By Mr. Womble) 1851?
A 1051, I'm sorry.
THE COURT: , I see. All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) In other words, it's two-thirds?
A About, yes.
Q As many blacks as whites.
A That's right. It's quite imperfect.
Q If you went up to take in Rural Hall, you would
be covering another six or eight miles, wouldn't you?
A That's right. That's why I did not do that. I
just made the decision not to, and I left it open with this
point that you pointed out, that perhaps it should have
been and I will certainly admit that, maybe we should bring
it down so that it will bring the ratic of black to white
more in line with desegregation.
Q Then if you did that, then you would be trans
porting blacks as much as ten miles or more to school,
wouldn't you?
A That's right. I don't think ten miles is very
far actually, Mr. Womble. Ten miles perhaps from here to
here is no farther than the five miles or so that you
pointed out from the lower end of the Sedge Garden district
to Skyland, because what we are talking about in transporta-
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-942
tion is always time, and not necessarily mileage.
Q It is time and money and it could be frustration,
couldn't it, Dr. Larsen? And it is a long distance to go
to school when you've got one within walking distance,
isn’t it?
A This is one of the facts of life.
Q That depends on who's operating the system,
doesn't it?
A I don't know what's the answer to that question.
Q Now, according to your definition, the schools in
Group B would not be desegregated, would they?
A Not according to my definition. They would be
racially mixed according to my definition. I had the
category of racially mixed as a category stating that there
were more than ten percent of the minority but not within
the desegregation range.
Q Am I correct in assuming that when they go above
the desegregation range by your definition, it is not
desirable?
A That's right. So I made a tentative choice, to
leave it that way rather than to bring in the others, and
maybe you are influencing me to say that we probably should
have brought in Rural Hall and Walkertown Elementary in
order to do this.
Q But the way you have your proposal now, you have
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moved from one situation that you consider undesirable to
another situation that you consider undesirable?
A That’s right, but not quite so undesirable. It’s
a little better.
Q And to achieve an undesirable situation in the
opposite direction, you are moving maybe two thousand
children?
A Well, tvro thousand - I don't know if you would be
moving that many.
Q Well, you’ve got three thousand people involved
here, haven't you?
A I believe from Mr. Ward’s testimony yesterday we
are moving about 17,000 busing now, and 2,000 - that relatior
ship is not very big.
Q There's no reason to relate those two in this
context, is there, Dr. Larsen?
A I don't know. Maybe in moving 2,000, maybe some
of those 17,000 that are moving wouldn't have to be moved.
I don't know what your present bus routes are.
0 'There's nothing that you are proposing that would
permit a child to go to school nearer his home than he is
now going, is it?
A It's conceivable, yes.
Q Please explain that.
A As you adjust allocation, you adjust numbers.
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Maybe in the schools that are relatively close together,
somebody may be going to Mineral Springs where he would then
be going to Oak Summit, which is a little closer.
Q Do you know that he can go right now to the school
that's closest to his home?
A Y/ithin the same distance, yes.
Q That's within the same distance?
A I'm not sure he's doing that, see.
Q He can if he wants to?
A Yes, and if there's room.
Q If he is within the district and it's closer to
his home, he can go there under this plan. Don't you
understand that?
A The present one?
Q Yes.
A There would be a time, I would assume, that that
exception would have to be made. It would have to be made
with the density of the —
Q You're talking theory; you don't understand that
exists now, do you?
A It does in many districts.
Q I'm talking about here in Winston-Salem, in the
uistrict that we're talking about. You don't understand
that that exists here, do you, in Mineral Springs, Oak
Summit, Prince Ibraham District?
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A Wait just a moment.
Q What 1 1m getting at is you are not testifying
that you have information that any child who lives closer
to Oak Summit Elementary School is not permitted as a matter
of right to go to Oak Summit School, or any child who is
living closer to Mineral Springs is not permitted to go
to Mineral Springs, or any child that lives closer to Prince
Ibraham is not permitted to go there?
A That's right. You asked me in a theoretical
sense, and you use these examples to prove a theory.
Q But it doesn't work, does it?
A The theory still works. There might come a day,
as I tried to say, that the density of population around
one given school—
Q We're talking about between now and the end of
June, 1970.
A You're bringing theory down to practicality.
Q Yes, sir, I want to be practical.
A There are still spaces at Oak Summit and still
spaces at Ibraham; they are not overcrowded there.
Q So practically, speaking from a factual standpoint
any transfer of any child under your proposal in this Group
B would require that child to go farther to school than he
now goes?
A Yes, it. probably would work out that way. There
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may be an exception to that, Mr. Womble. There are 61 or so
black students presently at Mineral Springs. 1 don't know
precisely where they are living. It may be that they will
go a little bit closer next time; I don't know. So the
answer to your question, I don't precisely know. The chances
are very likely.
Q All right. Now, let's look at District 2 under
your proposal.
A Yes, sir.
Q And let's take a look at the populations of those
schools.
A I have the populations from the old figures. Do
you want me to bring these up to date?
Q Let's take a look at the correct figures. Kimberly
Park?
A Kimberly Park is now 778, all black.
Q Carver Crest?
A It is now 477 and all black.
Q Lowrance?
A Lowrance has become 738, 726 black to 12 white.
Q Speas?
A Speas has— shall we agree that1s black and white?
Speas then would have 2 black and 996 white.
Q Whitaker?
A 7 black, 608 white.
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Q Sherwood Forest?
A Presently 822 white and 1 black.
Q Moore?
A 439 white.
Q Brunson?
A Brunson now is 540 white, 335 black.
THE COURT: Again the last figure?
THE WITNESS: 135.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Ardmore?
A I have 7 black and 586 white.
u So the total number of pupils, black and white,
involved in that Group C?
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry about this, Your Honor.
The problem is that I have the data from the projected
enrollments and we are bringing it up to date with the
new sheet that we just got.
THE COURT: I hope that you and Mr. Womble have
proven that mathematics is not an exact science.
0 (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, in your Group C,
which includes Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, Lowrance,
Speas, Whitaker, Sherwood Forest, Moore, Brunson and Ardmore,
and you have a total of how many pupils?
A 4,003 white, 2132 black.
Q That would be a total of a little over 6,000 then,
wouldn’t it?
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map?
A Yes.
Q 6,135?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, would you please spot these schools on the
A Kimberly Park - can I do this Just by pointing?
Q All right.
A Kimberly Park is here; we come down Just below it,
Carver Crest; Lowrance is up here next to Hanes; Speas is
over here; Whitaker right here; Sherwoou Forest - we move
out here, Moore, and Ardmore here, Brunson here. What I
did essentially was to draw a grouping like this (inuicating
on map).
Q Now, from the east to west boundary of the group
area you have Just pointed out, how many miles is it?
A It is six miles.
Q And the distance north ana south is how many
miles?
A Six, approximately six miles.
Q Now, the black children in that area live in what
part of the total area you Just pointed to?
A In the more or less the upper northeastern portion.
Q That's almost the northeast comer, isn't it?
A Kimberly Park is up near the corner, and then
you come down to Carver Crest, yes. Lowrance, I'm sorry.
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Q It’s the northeast corner of the tract?
A Yes, sir. These come close to being once again
your city schools.
Q And the Kimberly Park area is how far across east
and west?
A You mean from here to here?
Q From east-west on Kimberly Park?
A A mile.
Q In fact a little less than a mile?
A Just slightly.
Q And from north to south?
A A little more than a mile.
Q No—
A I ’m sorry. The same tiling.
Q It’s about three-quarters of a mile, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Your Carver Crest is about the same size and
shape as the Kimberly Park area?
A Yes, about a mile and a half or two miles in each
direction.
Q It's nearer three-quarters of a mile than a mile,
isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Nov/, Lowrance is a little bit largex1 in area, but
the eastern and western portions of it are not developed,
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are they?
A That's right.
Q So that the residential area around Lowrance would
be approximately the same size as the area served by Kimber
ly Park and Carver Crest, wouldn't it?
A Discounting the non-developed areas?
Q Yes.
A Lowrance pulls from a pretty wide—
Q I say discounting the undeveloped areas, it's
approximately the same size as Kimberly Park and Carver
Crest, isn't it?
A Yes. One thing bothers me a little.
Q Could you answer that first?
A Yes. The map is basically a '66 map. 1 am not
certain whether this is built up in these undeveloped areas
a little mo.e than it was.
Q 7;ell, the east part of Lowrance is in the airport,
isn't it?
A Yes.
Q So there wouldn't be much likelihood of any
development there, would there?
A No. I don't remember what was here.
Q Do you recall going out Cherry-Marshall and
seeing the coliseum and fairgrounds?
A Yes, sir.
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Q And that area was not developed as a residential
area, was it?
A No. There are some new shopping areas going in
rather close to here.
Q But they are not houses?
A That's right.
Q Now, would you please explain under your proposal
how you would expect to get the black children from Carver
Crest, Kimberly Park and Lowrance, to create the two to one
mix you propose in Ardmore, Moore, Brunson, Whitaker,
Sherwood Forest, and Speas, and how you would propose to
get the white children from Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker
Moore and Ardmore into Carver Crest, Kimberly Park and
Lowrance?
A How would they get there?
Q How would you propose to reassign them?
A Many of them— well, that’s two questions, Mr.
Womble. How would they travel there, or how they would be
reassigned?
Q How would they be reassigned?
A By residence area nearest, and by race, as I
said.
Q Explain what you would be doing, for example take
Lowrance.
A Yes, sir.
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PHONE: 765-0636
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Q
A Yes, sir.
Q Of the area that you have circumscribed?
A Yes, sir.
Q You now have 726 black children going to Lowrance?
A Mr. Womble— can we go off the record for a moment,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE COURT: Back on the record.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, the sheet that you
were working from when you prepared your proposal showed
the composition of Lowrance to be projected for the year
1969-70 as what?
A 705 white, 20 black, for a total of 725. I
therefore treated it as a white school.
Q You now find that it consists of 726 black and 12
white?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just about the reverse of the figures you were
working from?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what difference would that make in your
proposal, Dr. Larsen?
A I would have to think about that, Mr. Womble. My
T h is i s i n th e ex trem e n o r th e a s t p a r t?
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first reaction would be to use Lowrance in a different
context that I have. I would have to - in a sense - go back
to the drawing board looking at Lowrance as all black.
Probably then it should be assigned— it might be assigned
better to the other group than to this one.
Q When you say the other group, you are talking
about—
A Group A.
Q Ibraham, Oak Summit, Mineral Springs, Fairview
and Carver. Now, if you did that, that would make a bad
situation worse, according to your proposal, wouldn’t it?
A Then I would add Rural Hall and Walkertown to it,
to bring more white children in and make the district go up
like that. And I'm very sorry about that, about an innocent
mistake on my part.
Q Each time the picture changes then, it calls for
a completely different look at it, doesn’t it?
A No. No school district zone lines are ever fixed;
they must be adjusted.
Q Dr. Larsen, have you been advised of the residentia:
pattern in the North Elementary and Lowrance Elementary areas
Has there been a change in that pattern in the last five
years?
A Well, I cannot testify as to— I have inferred
from comments that I have heard that the area has changed.
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Q
Yes. I don't know how long a period of time was
From all white to all black?
A
involved,
Q Now, as you approached school assignment, if an
ax'ea is all white and children are assigned to a different
school, with those children being all white, and then the
neighborhood changes from white to black, would you change
the school to which the children are assigned for the sole
purpose of achieving the racial mix?
A I will hold desegregated schools as that important
that I may likely do so. I find it also, in answer to your
question, Mr. v/omble, that if the district is desegregated,
the chance of a neighborhood changing is cut down somewhat.
Q Hanes High School - Hanes Junior High School, was
all white five years ago, or approximately that - maybe it
was a little iurther back — said went through a period where
there was a heavy racial mix, and now it is all black, or
practically so. Under your theory, why didn't it stop
somewhere and remain as an integrated school?
A Perhaps because the whites who formerly went to
it were able to move to areas that still remained all
white schools. If the areas to which they were able to
move were also desegregated, the chances of their moving
would have been cut down.
Q You presume that to be true?
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A I have seen i t happen i n a c o u p le o f o c c a s io n s ,
and—
Q In other words, it's one of those things that
might happen or it might not happen?
A People change their residence from one area to
another for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons, as
you said, could be the educational plan to which they are
going. They may go to it because it is all white, and the
one they are living near becomes a changed pattern.
Q People also move to where they move to because
of the neighborhood and the neighbors they'll have, don't
they?
A And all other kinds of reasons.
Q For lots of reasons.
A One of the reasons is the one I cited.
Q Now, you have never lived in a community where
you had integrated schools of the proportions that we are
talking about today, have you?
A Not of the proportions, but the problems - the
school population was 15 or 18 percent Negro.
Q Didn't you testify this morning that it was 12 to
15 .percent?
A 12 to 15 percent.
Q Isn't that what you said this morning?
A I think that the entire Negro population was 12 to
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15 percent, and the school population ranges from 12 up to
18, around 15.
Q Now, forgetting Lowrance for a moment then, since
that was not in accordance with what you find the facts now
to be, please explain by reference to the geographic area
around Kimberly Park and Carver Crest the procedure you
would follow in selecting students in those areas to be
transferred to other schools and how you would decide which
direction to send those students, and in reverse the geo
graphic places from which you would assign students now
attending Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker, Moore, and
Ardmore and Brunson, to attend Kimberly Park and Carver
Crest.
A I would do so by basis of pupil locater map,
spotted the residence or the immediate block or two of the
residence of each child, and assign them to the school
nearest his home area in relation to race as well. This is
how I would do it; doing it on the basis of this map, I
can only speak in terms of theory.
Q And you are not speaking, you are not saying,
you are not undertaking to say to this Court that it would
be practical, are you?
A I would say it is possible only.
Q But not necessarily practical?
A. I suppose that would be - from the limits of
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practicality - it depends on the objective you are using.
Under my objective, it would be practical and possible.
Q And your objective then is to do anything that is
necessary to achieve a two-to-one racial mix in that area?
A I hold that desegregation is important enough to
do what you must do. The other alternative would seem to
be all black schools in Winston-Salem, and I don't think
that is anyone's objective.
0 And you would do this even though it meant taking
a child - even if it was a black - from Sherwood Elementary
School and sending that child three miles to Carver Crest
on a direct line, when it might be four miles following
the street line?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you would do the same thing with children in
the Ardmore area, the iioore area, the Whitaker area, the
Speas area. You say that it is of such importance to
achieve a specific racial mix that you would require a
child from any one of those neighborhoods who might be
within walking distance of his school - might live within
a block of the school - to send that child to Kimberly Park
or to Carver Crest?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in reverse, you would take a child who might
live within a block of Kimberly Park or Carver Crest, and
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regardless of the wishes of the family or the child, require
that child to go to Speas or to Sherwood Forest or to
Whitaker or to Moore or to Ardmore or to Brunson?
A It could be.
Q And you think that is educationally sound?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, you live in Rhode Island, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q If you were the superintendent of schools in
Winston-Salem/Forsyth County, or on the Board of Education,
that would be what you would recommend?
A Yes, sir. Mot necessarily especially that, but
I would recommend methods and approaches and plans where
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School System could be
desegregated. Rather, I would do the precise approach that
I have mentioned here on the basis of the data available to
me. I cannot say; I believe if I were the superintendent
I would have more data and perhaps could do a much better
30b of desegregating the system as I have pointed out. But
I would work out a plan for doing that particular job, yes,
sir.
Q And you would do it in the middle of the spring
semester of 1970?
A I would do it as quickly as I possibly could. I
would assume that I have many plans, I would have much
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knowledge already and wouldn't be starting to form a plan
completely from scratch on January 22nd.
Q You have never lived in a community that did this
while you were living there, have you?
A vie did in Providence, Rhode Island when I was
there.
Q Providence, Rhode Island doesn't have the racial
mix Winston-Salem, North Carolina has, does it?
A You didn’t ask the question that way; you asked
me if I had lived in an area where this had been done, and
I said yes. If I lived in a town where the racial composi
tion is 75/25, no.
Q Did they do it in Providence in the middle of the
school year?
A As a matter of fact, yes, they did.
Q VI hat month?
A I believe it was November, Mr. Womble.
Q What year?
A 1967.
Q How many children were transferred?
A I don't remember precisely. I could not say,
Q How much busing was required?
A Quite a bit; a good lot. Providence has a popu
lation of something around 200,000 people, so it’s a fair
size community.
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Q Approximately how many black children were moved
into white schools?
A Enough to raise the percentage—
Q How many in number approximately?
A I do not remember; I can't answer that question
because 1 don't have those statistics in front of me. There
were about 12 to 15 percent black students, and the schools— j
each school was desegregated until there were not more
majority black or all black schools, and no more all white
schools.
Q How many schools did they have in the system?
A There are five large senior high schools, nine
large junior high schools, and the requisite number of
elementary schools to feed the schools. I don't know the
number of elementary schools.
Q What is the geographic area?
A I couldn't tell you.
Q It’s not comparable to Forsyth County, is it?
A It's very dense. Getting across town in Providence
from one side to another would take a longer time, even in
a car, than going from one side of the county here to
another. My college is on the west-north section of town,
and to go to the church I attend on the east side of
Providence, is a distance of perhaps not more than five
miles or so, but in the best times it takes me in a car at
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least twenty minutes.
Q So it’s approximately five miles across town, is
it?
A Not to extremes, because neither of these are to
extremes. We have a saying in Providence that you can’t
get from one place to another very easy.
Q It is Just not comparable to Forsyth County, is it?
A It is comparable in times.
Q It's not comparable in population or in geography,
is it?
A No.
Q Or in racial mix?
A No. We do have youngsters spending up to half
an hour on a bus each way.
Q And that's good?
A It’s new to them; it's neutral; it's neither good
or bad. It depends on what happens at their destination.
That is important. If what happens at their destination,
at the school to which they go, if what happens there is
good and better than it would be close to them, then the
bus ride is worth it. It's not the bus ride itself; it's
what happens when they arrive at the place they're going.
Q Dr. Larsen, are you telling this Court that if
you can work out a good educational system so that a child
can get to school in five minutes, can get home in five
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minutes, that it makes no difference to revamp the setup
and have him spend a half an hour going each way?
A If the end of the ride is a desegregated school, I
think it's worth it, and this is what I think, yes.
Q Let me read you a letter and ask you if you agree
or disagree. "The majority of whites think we blacks favor
this school integration bit. They couldn’t be more mis
taken. Let me give many blacks’ viewpoint once again. Our
black children and teachers will be placed in a minority
situation. Only in our black schools are we in the majority.
These government interferences and handouts that are
supposed to help us hurt us more, but the so-called liberal
element that is destroying this nation is too stupid to see
the later effects. The AFDC is a perfect example of how
our black men became emasculated. It breaks up more of our
families and creates numbers of Illegitimate children.
Again in this school integration bit, it will be my
children and the poor white children who will suffer. They
will be transported across town to these fine schools, and
they will not be able to take part in after-school activi
ties. Who will bring them home? Most of us are not even
a one-car family, much less two. They will be sitting
next to children who are materially much richer, and this
is very depressing and makes a young one feel even more
inferior, and makes me feel bad because I can't provide my
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children with fancy clothes. The poor again will suffer
because the rich will 3end their children to private schools
and siphon off our best teachers. As it stands now, even
our best schools are bad enough. Don't ever make the
mistake of believing that a shining new facility will
provide a better education. We live near the old Gray High
School. It has got a whiz-bang reputation, not only for
music and dance, but for booklearning. It is an old build
ing; its old building didn't hold it back. Too many of our
blacks hove no pride. What really hurts is for them and
the Supreme Court to think that we have got to mix with
whites to better ourselves. What gall for them to believe
in this racial supremacy of the white man." Do you think
there may be some truth in some of that?
A I think it's very sad, Mr. Womble. I am very
distressed humanly, educationally, that we may be further
polarizing the races. I think this is very sad. I would
feel as sad if that letter were written by a white man as
by a black man. I think we must find ways in our educational
planning to bring the races together in a kind of composi
tion that reflects the reality of the community and not
polarize them, and not use the schools to - in a sense, to
polarize them. I think this is very sad.
Q Don't you think it also may be sad to artificially
force people to be mixed according to some formula that you
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or someone else has come up with against the wishes of the
people who are involved, the people - I ’m talking about the
individual person now who is going to school or whose child
is going to school?
A The word "artificial" troubles me, Mr. Womble. I
don't think that any assignment to school necessarily is
artificial. Youngsters for generations have been assigned
to schools not near their homes, and in getting to the
schools to which they were assigned they often had to pass
other schools. I don’t remember its being called artificial
then. The reason they didn't go to the school nearest their
homes could have been density of population, or the school
Just couldn't hold them and they had to be transported or
taken to a school in which there was room - mobility of
population, or in some cases because of a dual school system.
If we didn't call that artificial then, I cannot for the
life of me see why we can call it artificial now.
Q Do you think it was wrong to transport the black
children of Forsyth County from all over the county outside
of the City of Winston-Salem to go to Carver School?
A Speaking back in the old dual system days?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I do think it was wrong. It was bad.
Q Do you think two wrongs make a right?
A No. No. I think in trying to bring the races
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together, we are not doing a wrong, Mr. Womble. I cannot
believe that.
Q Don't you think that there may be better ways to
bring the races together without forcing a child who lives
within a block of one school to be transported by bus two,
three, four, five, six or eight miles to another school
that he doesn't want to attend, that his parents don't
want him to attend, that take* him a half an hour to get
there and back?
A I don't think that is necessarily a wrong. I
think that the objective is a sound one; the objective of
transporting to keep the schools segregated, in my opinion,
was not on the same level of soundness.
Q Do you not think, Dr. Larsen, that this matter of
the individual preference of a child and its parents may
have some legitimate part to play in our constitutional—
under our constitution?
A That smacks at being a legal question, Mr. Womble.
I am not a constitutional lawyer.
Q Don't you think it ought to have a part to play?
A Individual choice to attend school? I think in
our present culture it cannot have the primary place to play.
This is what I think. I hope that in the future, we can
honor this in every way. I think now other considerations
must also be weighed in the balance.
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Q If the black students and their families reside
in the Patterson Avenue, the Bon Air Avenue area of town -
which would be sort of north central in Winston-Salem -
because that's where they want to live, and if they live
there and prefer to attend the school in which the students
or the majority of the students are their neighbors, and
if you have qualified teachers and a qualified principal
in that school to provide them with an education that is
equal to the educational opportunities that they might get
elsewhere, and if they feel more comfortable there and they
enjoy the school activities that they can engage in and
still walk home for dinner, and if they prefer to be involved
in class activities, student activities, where the elections
to one thing or another - where there would be a cheer
leader, class president, or what - is an election among
students who are their neighbors in their own community,
should they be denied that privilege?
A Yes, sir. May I make a statement on that, Mr.
Womble?
MR. STEIN: Dr. Larsen, before you answer— Your
Honor, I fail to see the relevance of the discussion.
It might be interesting, but I think that the argument
implied in Mr. Womble's questions is exactly the kind
of argument which has been foreclosed by the courts.
I heard Pat Taylor make exactly the same argument when
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he argued the Harnett County case over a year ago in
the Fourth Circuit, and it did not prevail there.
THE COURT: Mr. Stein, you know, these witnesses
come into court and he has testified what a desegre
gated school is - that’s a question of law. I let him
testify because the courts have been doing that. The
shoe is on the other foot. I need all the help I can
get in this matter. And you have all gone fax- afield
as far as the evidence goes in this, both sides, the
defendants and everybody else, but it looks like these
matters develop into one of those sessions whereby you
introduce books and you introduce any and everything,
and I think that this is beyond the point, too. Also
his conclusion about what a desegregated school, as
you and myself know the law, that would be improper.
But that's the way this area has developed, and I am
going to let this go on for a little while. I hope
you can bring it to a conclusion, M r. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir. I'm going to bring it to
one right now, I hope.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr, Larsen, are you by any chance
familiar with the results of some research that was done in
the Winston-Salem/ForsythCounty School System in October of
1968 as it relates to the reading achievement of Negro 6th
grade pupils in white schools, 1967-68?
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A No, sir.
Q Would you be surprised to find that the results
of that research brought the following conclusion: "From
the facts as found in the tables, the following conclusions
can be stated in regard to these pupils and their scores
on the tests administered. (1) The Negro who has spent at
least two years in white schools achieved at about the same
level as they would if they had remained in a Negro school.
(2) That the number of Negroes in white schools who lost
ground in regard to the average reading achievement from
the third grade to the sixth grade is about three times the
number who have gained, whereas the expected number in each
category should be about the same. (3) That only six of
the Negroes in white schools have reading achievement scores
that exceeded the average reading scores of the white pupils
with the same tested I.Q.'s. Of these six, none had tested
I.Q.'s below 90. (4) The Negro pupils going to white
schools possessed slightly higher I.Q.'s than did Negroes
who remained in Negro schools. Considering the average
reading scores of these two groups, there was little
difference, but the difference that existed favored those
who remained in the Negro schools." Would those conclusions
be in line with your theory that there are automatic benefits
to be gained just from mixing?
A I think that they may demonstrate that we need to
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a better job in all of our schools. I believe that we can
find research that shows that achieving scores for black
youngsters are higher in desegregated schools than they are
in all black schools. I believe that this does not obviate
the necessity in my opinion of desegregating public educa
tion in Winston-Salem or anywhere else.
Q But might it not also indicate that the appropriate
way to do it is along more natural lines than the artificial
arbitrary approach that you have testified to today?
A I don’t know what natural lines are in this field,
Mr. Womble. You mean wait— we've beenveiting under freedom
of choice until eventually some yon day the races decided
to go to school together. I don't know when that would
happen. I'm very much afraid of polarization, and I'm
afraid that the letter you read me is very indicative of
what might happen, and I'd hate to see it happen in Winston.
Q Are you by any chance familiar with another result
of research by the Research Department of the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Schools, which was published in July of 1969?
It is entitled, "A Study of the Test Scores and Academic
Marks made by the Negro Elementary Pupils Who Were Enrolled
in the White Schools During the School Year 1968-69”.
A No.
Q Would you expect to be surprised to find that the
conclusions of this particular research were these: "From
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this study of the letter marks received by Negro students
attending white schools, the following general conclusions
may be stated concerning these pupils at this time, and
with the limitations listed. (1) Among Negro pupils, those
who began in white schools received higher percentage of
high marks in white schools than did those who transferred.
(2) While in Negro schools, the majority of Negro students
in this study received grades at least "C" or above in the
four academic areas, and after transferring to white schools,
the majority of pupils received "D” or "F" except in
spelling. (3) The average letter mark received in the
Negro schools is at least one-half a mark higher than that
received in the white school in the same subject. To say
it in another manner, the average letter mark obtained in
white schools for the Negro pupils in this study is at
least one-half a letter mark below his mark in the Negro
school, as seen from Table 33.'’
A I can only refer you to my former answer, Mr.
Womble. I think w© can do a better job in all the schools.
Q Dr. Larsen, in connection with the proposal that
you have made, have you made any studies as to the number of
pupils who would be involved in the transfer?
A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the amount of busing
that would be required?
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A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the cost that would be
required?
A No, sir.
Q Have you made any study of the time it would take
to prepare such a plan, to make assignments in accordance
with such a plan, to notify parents and students of assign
ment, to order and receive school buses, to obtain appropri
ation of funds for the purchase of buses, and other expendi
tures that would be involved in order to do what you are
proposing?
A The answer to those questions is no.
Q At this point, could you even estimate how many
weeks it would take to - or how long it would take on a
practical - not a theoretical basis, but on a practical
basis, to put together — well, strike that. To do whac you
are talking about, you would have to know where every child
lived, wouldn't you?
A Within a close vicinity, yes.
Q And you would have to know the race of each child
at each place of residence?
A Yes.
Q Now, assuming that the information as to all of
that is not available in sufficient detail, or with suffi
cient completeness to enable the school system to make
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assignments on the basis of residence and race that you
propose, how long would you think it would take, even if the
money were available to buy the buses and had been appropri
ated and any additional cost that would be involved as far
as implementing the plan were concerned, to get that informa
tion correlated realistically, work it out for the assignment
of all the pupils who would be involved here, and to perform
this task?
A If we started from scratch today, on January 26th
or January 22nd, from scratch and had to—
Q From what?
A From scratch.
Q From what date?
A From today, whatever today is, the 22nd. If we
are starting from point zero, it would take some time - I
don't know how long.
Q Maybe months?
A No, it wouldn't take months. No school district—
Q Have you tried to buy any school buses lately?
A No school district—
Q Answer me. Have you been involved in the purchase
of any school buses lately?
A No, sir.
Q Well, don't you know that that alone can take
months?
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A Do I know this? I don’t know it, no.
Q Are you familiar with the work that has been done
by the local school system during the past month to arrange
for the reassignment of teachers so that as of the beginning
of the second semester of this year, they will be assigned
to schools on a racial ratio basis?
A I assume there has been work; obviotwly there has
been a good deal of work done.
Q Would you think that it might be reasonable for
them to have been working practically full-time for a month
to accomplish this?
A I don’t know how long it took them, Mr. Womble.
Q Using computers, notifying teachers, considering
individual situations - it has nothing to do with busing,
it has nothing to do with residence - you can appreciate
that it would take quite some time to do this other job,
can’t you?
A It can, yes. Yes, it can take time, or it can be
done quickly. You are asking me a question on relative
terms. It's very difficult to answer it. I ’d like to be
able to answer it specifically.
Q It wouldn't be fair to the children to do a sloppy
job, would it?
A I don't think a sloppy Job should ever be done in
anything.
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Q So that anything that needs to be done needs to be
done right, doesn't it?
A Yes. No Job is completely irrevocable.
Q Dr. Larsen, under the proposal that you have made,
there would be no change in Bolton, would there?
A Let me see. I believe not. No, sir. I left that
off the grouping.
Q And that was comprised of 520 white and 1 Negro,
is that right?
A That's right. I left some all white schools; that
is right.
Q The two schools that are privately owned as far
as the buildings are concerned, Children's Center and
Children's Home, you have not bothered with those?
A That's correct.
Q The school at Clemmons, in the southwestern part
of the county, which is currently attended by 14 Negroes
and 972 whites, would not be affected?
A That's right.
Q Easton, which is currently attended by 146 black
and 191 white, would not be affected?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Easton, according to your definition, is not a
desegregated school?
A I believe I classified that in another category.
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A I put that in the category between desegregated
and segregated. That's what I did.
Q So that Easton with 146 blacks and 191 whites is
not desegregated according to your definition?
A That's right. It's racially mixed.
Q But it is not a desirable situation?
A Not completely, no, by no means. I did not pretenc
to do a complete Job of abolishing all all-white schools or
all majority white schools. A complete Job of desegregation
in the entire system, I would assume to mean that every
school has blacks and whites in it, with a majority white
and a minority black. I did not do that complete a Job.
Q But what you proposed you would call a unitary
system, wouldn't you?
A I would hope so. I would hope so for the present
at least. I would assume that the Board would continue work
ing on the problem.
Q Your proposal would not affect 14th Street, which
has 583 blacks?
A I did make a suggestion, I believe, that 14th
Street be— wait a moment; let me check. I think I suggestec.
that it be reduced in size and perhaps eventually phased out
I did not now assign it in the groupings.
Q Didn't you this morning testify that you would
leave it as it is for the time being?
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A I think that's what I said, yes. There were two
schools in the inner city, two black schools in the inner
city, I suggested that they be reduced in size; otherwise
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left as it is, as they are, that is at the present. I
think you're right.
Q When you have a plant of a certain size, you don't
improve the school by reducing the pupil population to less
than, say 580 some odd in the elementary school? Isn't that
a good size for an elementary school? Isn't 583, assuming
that it is not beyond capacity for the building, isn't that
within normal range for an elementary school?
A Yes. Reducing the size so we can concentrate more
the teacher-pupil ratio until we can do something else with
these all black schools. What you are saying to me, Mr.
Womble, is that I did not do a complete Job of desegregation,
and this is true. I was not able to figure out how to do—
there are several inner city all black schools. I tried to
come up with an approach that would do an approximate Job
of desegregation throughout the district. To do the same
with 14th Street and North as I did with Fairview and Sky-
land, Kimberly Park, Carver Crest and Carver, it was Just
much more complicated and I Just didn't go that far.
Q It Just does get complicated, doesn't it?
A Yes, it does, and it is not easy.
Q Your proposal would not affect Griffith School?
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Q Which is presently attended by 1,020 whites?
A That's right. I left that along with several
of the others on the fringes.
Q Nor would it affect Kernersville, which is
attended by 36 blacks, 5 Indians, and 1,111 whites?
A That1s right.
Q Nor would it affect Latham, which is attended by
3 Indians, 7 blacks, 1 Oriental, and 415 whites?
A That1s right.
Q Nor would it affect Lewisville, which is attended
by 29 Negro and 602 whites?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect North Elementary, which is
attended by 689 blacks?
A North Elementary, I think was in the same cate
gory as 14th Street.
Q Nor would it affect Old Richmond, which is
attended by 41 whites - I mean 41 blacks and 309 whites?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect Old Town, which is attended
by 1 Indian, 99 black, 2 Oriental, 1,186 white?
A That’s right.
Q Nor would it affect Rural Hall, which is attended
by 50 black, 871 white?
A T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
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A
Nor would it affect South Park, which is attended
T h a t 's r i g h t .
Q
"by 4 black and 556 white?
A That's right.
Q Now would it affect Union Cross, which is attended
by 3 black and 659 white?
A That's right.
Q Nor would it affect Vienna, which is attended by
12 black and 423 white?
A Yes.
Q Nor would it affect Walkertown, which is attended
by 1 Indian, 91 black, 916 white?
A That's right.
Q And at this point you don't know how it would
affect any of the junior high schools or high schools?
A It's done through a feeder system, as I said.
That's right.
Q Dr. Larsen, under your proposal, would you transfer
children by classes, or would you ignore that in making
transfers? I'm talking about, say a home classroom unit?
A I would try not to. I think I suggested to
assume that everyone is home and not in the school and then
assign them to the school nearest his home and also by
race, and not to take a class out of a school and transfer
that class to another school. I would—
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Q In other words, the net result would be to break
up the classes, wouldn't it?
A It could be.
Q Well, it would be, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, what do you consider the optimum
mixing of the races in the school?
A I don’t know. I think in our culture the optimum
must be with a rather substantial majority of white over
black. Precisely what the numbers or the percentages should
be, I could not say, but I think substantially white over
black.
Q Why?
A I think we have found from some national research
that if the whites outnumber the blacks by the ratio of
somewhere around two-thirds to one-third or more, that the
whites are not hurt and that the black people, the black
youngsters probably rise in achievement. This research is
not complete yet, but the indications are that the majority
of black schools, or near majority black schools, tend to
be inferior schools than do schools that are majority white.
Q What research do you refer to?
A The research of the U. S. Civil Rights Commission
Study, the Racial Isolation of the Public Schools, and other
research that has become—
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Q
“ 7
Is that the same as the Coleman Report?
A Yes, the Coleman Report predated some of that, yes.
Q Is that research based on— what is that research
based on as far as geographical areas are concerned?
A Studies of schools with different kinds of racial
composition, from all black schools, studies from all black
schools to several kinds of compositions, and the majority
white schools seem to the better type. I think you are
fortunate in that your racial composition is about 75/25
in this district.
Q And there is much disagreement among educators as
to the real facts with respect to this matter, isn't there?
A We have not had a research study long enough,
enough of a longitudinal base, to give us more than what we
call indications. The results though that all black schools
tend to be inferior in raising achievement levels of students
it seems to be quite apparent.
Q So it is certainly not established as fact, is it?
A I think the latter almost is, Mr. Womble.
Q Your disagreement with the conclusions of these
reports is found among both black and white educators, isn't
it?
A With some of the conclusions, particularly some of
the statistical interpretations, and some of the more
sophisticated terminology used. The conclusions as to the
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ethicacy of oil black schools in relationship to the
majority of white schools, I think, is quite well establishec.
Q Now, you talk about the number of blacks reaching
a point where it hurts the whites. How does it hurt them?
A I don’t know if I said that, Mr. Womble.
q Didn’t you say that the substantial majority
should be white in any given situation, possibly two-thirds
to one-third?
A Yes.
q So that the net effect would be not to hurt the
whites but yet to help the blacks?
A I think this is one of the conclusions we have
reached from some of these studies, that if the school is
all black the black students achieve a certain level. If
the school is majority white - may I back up? If the
school is all white, the whites achieve a certain level.
If a school is all black, the blacks achieve a certain
level. If the composition of a school is majority white to
minority black, the blacks tend to rise above the level
that they achieve at the all black schools, and the whites
are at about the same level that they reached in the all
white school. This is the finding.
Q This is a finding with which there is not total
agreement, is there? It's not a conclusive finding, is it:
A No finding is really conclusive to that final
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nature. We're still working on it.
Q Isn't there a theory among educators that the
brilliant child is not hurt by the less brilliant child
being in the class?
A I don’t know this as a finding. I think this is
almost on the level of an assumption.
Q It is almost on the same level as this other
conclusion, isn't it?
A Well, you speak of brilliance; you're not using
an exact term. A gifted child—
Q This business of indicating with your hands is
the level of whites and blacks?
A I was indicating with my hands to illustrate that
a majority white school, in a majority white school -
substantially a majority white school, the blacks tend to
achieve perhaps better than they achieve in all black
schools. This is indicative of culture in the society in
which we live. I don't necessarily applaud this.
Q Do you agree, Dr. Larsen, cr disagree with the
proposition that because of some of the cultural tif?tr evv.**
that you find that are more or less typical of either- the
white race or the black race, that from the standpoint of
identifying with and understanding the problems of and
effectively disciplining the student, there are advantages
for the teacher and the child to be of the same race?
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A Not necessarily, but I do say - I do think that
the teachers need the help in understanding youngsters who
are different from themselves, and I believe this is the
responsibility of the administrative supervisory staff of
the school system.
Q And it can be a very real problem, can’t it?
A This administrative supervision is not easy, Mr.
Womble.
Q And it can be long and hard in solution?
A Some problems perhaps we always have with us.
Q And that would be one of them, wouldn't it?
A I think we have problems of teachers’ relation
ships with kids no matter what color the kids are. They
need help.
MR. Y/OMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. LIGON: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Ho questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
NR. STEIN: Your Honor, I don’t think so.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT
Q Dr. Larsen, I might not agree with all your testi
mony; it has stimulated my thought in many areas, and it has
been very interesting. One matter that I particularly
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wonder about, not being an educator, is your opinion about
the transfer in the middle of the school year. Much of what
you say I have no quarrel with particularly, but that it
would seem to me to bring on many, many problems, which is
obvious to one not an educator. For instance, you tell me
that kids are taking these courses in schools that are not
in other schools. You transfer a child from School A to
School B where there is not the subject which he was taking
before, he needs that perhaps to graduate. Of course I
realize that maybe you could work out some way - time
permitting - to transfer him to some school perhaps - maybe
you couldn’t - where French II is being taught. But there
are all kinds of problems that are obvious to me, untrained
in your field, that to me many of these matters you have
in that area, have oversimplified, I think. Maybe not
intentionally at all. But what I want to ask you, you are
saying that in a system, in a given system with given
conditions, that in your opinion you can end up with some
schools that have very little mixing and still have a unitary
system, but in your opinion that is not the ideal educational
system. Is that it? Is that what you are saying to me?
A I think that is very succinctly stated, Your Honor.
Q The Court needs help in this area.
A Yes, sir.
Q And genuine help.
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A I think that a lot of help will be needed. I
don't mean ever to underestimate hard work or difficulties
of doing what I think everyone agrees must be done, and I
think perhaps sometimes a pause between saying we are going
to do it and the time we do it can be more painful than
doing it, and then working out the bugs as much as possible.
G And I can see a vast difference in a move back
earlier in the school year as against this time, you know,
the process taking place.
THE COURT: Well, if there's nothing further, you
may come down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Gentlemen, is there any reason that
we can't take up with this case 9s30 next Tuesday morning?
MR. WOMBLE: What's that date?
THE COURT: That would be January 27th?
CLERK IDOL: That's correct.
THE COURT: Any reason, Mr. Stein?
MR. STEIN: No. We will be here and ready.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I don't think of anything
right now. I would need to check to see if there is any
difficulty. If there is, I will see if it's a difficulty
that is resolvable, and if I find I have any serious diffi
culty, I'll call Your Honor and let you know what the
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problem is.
THE COURT: All right. How about you, Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No problem,
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: No problem.
MR. WOMBLE: I’ll call and let you know either way.
THE COURT: I am sure Mr. Stein is going to
inquire about Dr. Larsen. I have no further questions.
MR. WOMBLE: I don’t think w e ’ll have anything
further, no, sir.
THE COURT: It's still light and the weather is
bad, and some of you have a long way to go. I have considere
the matter of the report which I directed to be here by
February 1st, and there has been a motion that the Board be
given until February 21st, if I remember it correctly, and
I am amending my order in the respect that they will submit
the report on or before February 16th, 1970, which is on
Monday.
I'm trying to find out what we've got to do next
week. Mr. Womble, how much do you have?
MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Sarbaugh will be back on the
stand for the completion of his examination, and then as
matters now stand we will have, I think, no more than three
other witnesses.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, I warn you now that any
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argument that you want to present in this matter, I will
want to hear at the conclusion, and also with reference to
the summary Judgment motions that have been filed - that
should be disposed of here by way of any presentation that
you might desire to make. I don't mean that I will not
give you time to present an additional brief, a limited
time, but I will not set another date for '.rgument or
presentation of argument after we conclude the hearings in
this case. We have court beginning at 9:00 o ’clock on
Monday - we have other matters; not this case. We will
recess until 9:00 o'clock Monday morning. In this case
Tuesday until 9:30, and we're recessing until 9:00 o ’clock
Monday morning, and we have some other matters then that I
must take care of.
All right; adjourn court.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on Tuesday,
January 27, 1970.)
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Gentlemen, we had concluded Dr.
Larsen’s testimony at the end of the day on Friday. That
was a plaintiffs' witness, and on Thursday Mr. Sarbaugh was
on the stand and I would presume that we are ready to con
tinue with his examination.
MR. GARROU: Yes, we are, Your Honor.
WHEREUPON,
RAYMOND SARBAUGH
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, I believe on
Thursday you had described the Title I art education pro
gram. Would you then describe, please, the pupil personnel
services program?
A Yes, sir. The pupil personnel services are
provided throughout the school system, but they are con
centrated services provided to those schools which are
served by Title I of Elementary and Secondary Education Act.
They are concentrated social services, including counselling
the students on health matters, behavior, academic problems,
placement in the special education classes, and much greater
attention to school attendance in the schools in the Title I
area in seventeen schools. There are eleven social workers
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and six nurses who provide this as a team, this concentrated
pupil personnel service. In the remaining 49 schools in
the school system which do not qualify for Title I funds,
they are served by five social workers and receive nursing
service on a part-time basis, several hours a week.
Q In the schools that contain this program, are only
eligible children allowed to participate?
A With respect to the pupil personnel services,
eligible children receive first priority. When the needs of
eligible children have been met, then these services may be
extended to other children who are in attendance in those
schools.
Q Would you describe for us, please, the Junior
high school fortification program?
A That is an educational sounding term, Mr. Garrou.
What we really have there in each of the Title I Junior high
schools, we have a special resource teacher who has sub
stantial competence and ability, and her function is as
nearly as anything else that of supervisory work. She is
an in-the-building supervisor and works directly with the
teachers and with the students.
Q And what does the special assistant Junior
principal at Atkins High School do?
A At Atkins, the regular allotment personnel entitles
that school to one full-time non-teaching assistant principal
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with funds from Title I. Wo created an additional full
time position in the area of instruction in order to provide
a person on the faculty in a leadership role who can devote
his full time to developing a more effective teaching
program for the students who attend that school.
U Now, describe for us, please, the comprehensive
school improvement project.
A This is a state and locally supported program,
different now from the Title I program. This is not a
program supported with Title I federal funds. It's supporte<
with state and local monies. Its purpose is to upgrade the
achievement of pupils especially in reading and communica
tion skills. It provides for teacher aids in the primary
grades. It provides generous funds for consultant service,
for travel and visitation to other programs for the teachers
who are participating, and funds for materials and equip
ment.
0 Now, what schools is this program offered in?
A This program is in Fairview Elementary School.
Q Now, what is your tutorial program?
A We hove considerable use of volunteers throughout
the school system. Much of it is with and through the
cooperation of the community's Volunteer Bureau. But we
have one really exemplary tutorial program at Lowrance
School, and it is a tutorial where people from the community
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come into the school on a regular basis and provide indivi
dualized assistance under the direction of a child’s class
room teacher to pupils in the area of reading primarily.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would like to object
to this line of questioning as being clearly irrelevant
to the question now before the Court, namely, whether
the School Board has dismantled the racially dual
system. Now, this testimony might go to something
later on the merits of whether the School Board is
properly utilizing Title I and other funds of the
special program, but it certainly has nothing to do
with whether the School Board here has dismantled.the
dual school system. Whether they have operated Title I
programs in those schools and what they have done
with those funds, I don’t see any relevance at all to
the question now that we thought was before the Court,
whether we had desegregated schools.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, that was objected to on
Friday on the same grounds. I take the position that
this is here on whether a preliminary injunction should
be issued. The parties were unable to agree about it
here to be decided finally on its merits. I think
going to the issue of whether a preliminary injunction
should issue, it is competent. I instructed Mr. Garrou
not to go into the matter with the detail that he had
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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proposed, but that I would h e a r i t i n a n a b b r e v i a t e d
fashion. Overruled.
MR. GARROU: Your Honor, i f I might p o i n t o u t ,
there are allegations in the c o m p l a i n t t h a t r e l a t e t o
this matter, and our contention is t h a t w e a r e o p e r a t
ing a unitary system, a n d t h e f o r m u l a i s n o t t h e t e s t
ol whether we are operating the s y s t e m , a n d i f i t ' s
not the test we feel that we a r e e n t i t l e d t o p u t o n
some other substantive evidence.
THE COURT: You may p r o c e e d . T r y t o k e e p t h i s a s
concentrated as you can w i t h o u t g r e a t d e t a i l . M r.
Idol, give me Defendants’ E x h i b i t 2 6 . I b e l i e v e t h a t
is the one w i t h t h e s c h o o l s l i s t e d . A l l r i g h t ; l e t ’ s
get along.
Q (By Mr. G a r r o u ) M r. S a r b a u g h , w o u ld y o u d e s c r i b e
the food service p r o g r a m i n t h e s c h o o l s b r i e f l y ?
A We have a system-wide consolidated o r c o o r d i n a t e d
food service program, uniform e x c e p t f o r t h r e e s p e c i a l t y p e s
of food service p r o g r a m s . I take i t y o u w a n t me t o d e a l
with those special food service p r o g r a m s ?
Q Y e s .
A There are three special types o f f o o d s e r v i c e
programs. (One is what is called the special a s s i s t a n c e f o r
reduced cost lunches, and this is a program t h a t i s s u p p o r t e d
with federal funds - not Title I, b u t w i t h f e d e r a l l u n c h
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funds - and in the schools in wliich this reduced cost lunch
is offered, children are provided a plate lunch, including
a meat and two vegetables, milk, rolls and butter, for a
maximum of 250, and they may pay that amount or any amount
less than that, depending upon their ability to pay, nothing
50, 100, etcetera, depending on their ability t o pay. This
is a more restrictive menu than we provide in the a la carte
selection in the regular schools. So that's one of these
programs.
Q Before you go on, why is i t more r e s t r i c t e d ?
A In order to qualify for the r e d u c e d c o s t l u n c h
program, the only menu that is permitted to be s e r v e d i s
this single menu. So there is no o p p o r t u n i t y t o p r o v i d e a n
a l a carte; it is an either/or k i n d o f t h i n g .
Q Is this a federal requirement?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. Go on.
A There is a breakfast p r o g r a m , a s p e c i a l b r e a k f a s t
program in some schools for eligible children, a n d it i s
financed with Title I funds. If a child is t a k i n g p a r t in
the educational programs at his s c h o o l a n d m e e t s t h e e c o n o m ic
standard, then he is eligible for free b r e a k f a s t s . And t h e n
the third feature of these special p r o v i s i o n s w o u ld b e
lunches in the preschool program, and w e h a v e m e n t i o n e d t h a t
program, for 220-odd children at Carver S c h o o l , a n d a l l o f
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t h e c h i l d r e n i n t h i s p r o g r a m r e c e i v e l u n c h w i t h o u t c o s t .
Q N ow , M r. S a r b a u g h , I s h o w y o u a c o p y o f D e f e n d a n t s ’
E x h i b i t 3 2 , a n d a s k i f t h e p r o g r a m s l i s t e d u n d e r t h e s c h o o l
D i g g s , i s t h a t a n a c c u r a t e l i s t ? W ere t h o s e p r o g r a m s
o f f e r e d i n t h a t s c h o o l ?
A Y e s , s i r , t h e y a r e o f f e r e d i n t h a t s c h o o l .
Q N ow , I sh o w y o u a c o p y o f D e f e n d a n t s ’ E x h i b i t 2 6 ,
a n d a s k y o u w h a t t h e e n r o l l m e n t o f D i g g s i s , t h e r a c i a l
m ak eu p o f D i g g s ?
A T h e r e a r e 6 0 9 N e g r o c h i l d r e n a n d n o n e o f o t h e r
r a c e s .
Q N ow , o n D e f e n d a n t s ' 3 2 , a r e t h e p r o g r a m s l i s t e d
u n d e r t h e s c h o o l F a i r v i e w , a r e t h e y a n a c c u r a t e r e p r e s e n t a -
t i o n ?
A Y e s , s i r .
Q W hat i s t h e r a c i a l m ak eu p o f F a i r v i e w ?
A I t i s a n a l l N e g r o e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l w i t h 6 9 3
c h i l d r e n .
Q I s t h e 1 4 t h S t r e e t g i v e n t h e r e ?
A Y e s , t h e y a r e .
Q W hat i s t h e r a c i a l m ak eu p o f 1 4 t h S t r e e t ?
A I t ' s a n a l l N e g r o e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l .
Q And t h e p r o g r a m s u n d e r B r o w n , a r e t h e y a c c u r a t e ?
A Y e s , s i r .
Q And t h e r a c i a l m ak eu p o f B row n ?
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A That is an all Negro elementary school.
Q Lowrance, are the programs there an accurate
representation?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the racial makeup of Lowrance?
A It is predominantly Negro elementary school. It
has a small number of white children.
Q North Elementary, the programs there, are they
an accurate representation?
A
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That is an accurate representation.
And what is the racial makeup?
It is an all Negro elementary school.
Kimberly Park, are the programs there accurate?
Yes, sir.
And what is the racial makeup of Kimberly Park?
It's an all Negro elementary school.
Skyland, the programs given there —
That’s correct.
And the racial makeup of Skyland?
All Negro.
Hanes Junior High, are the programs given there?
Yes, that's correct.
And what is the racial makeup of Hanes Junior
It is substantially Negro. There are 15 white
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students out of an enrollment of 513.
Q Kennedy Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
fJ What is the makeup of Kennedy?
A It appears to be one white student in a student
population of 1,043.
Q Are the programs given there?
A Yes.
0 And Atkins High School, are the programs given
there?
A Yes.
Q And the racial makeup of that school?
A It’s an all Negro high school.
0 Now, are any of these programs given at Paisley
Junior High?
A The program at Paisley would be comparable to
what is provided at the other Junior highs, Kennedy - the
Junior high resource teacher and the pupil personnel
service.
Q Are any of the Pr°grams offered at Mebane Elementary
School?
A
0
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which we
Yes.
Which ones, do you recall offhand?
Mebane provides the special first grade program,
referred to as "Open Highways". It has the art
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education program; it is provided with the same pupil
personnel services as the others; its children are eligible
for the year-round and summer preschool program; and it is
participating in the breakfast and the special assistance
lunch program.
Q How about Anderson Junior-Senior High? Are any
of these programs offered there?
A Anderson would offer the same programs that are
offered at Kennedy and Hanes Junior High Schools, the
resource teacher and the pupil personnel services.
Q I believe you testified on Thursday that to be
eligible for Title I participation, a child must be from a
particular area, geographic area, is that correct?
A Yes. A child must live in an area in which the
concentration of poverty exceeds the average of the
community at large.
Q Now, would there be any difficulties in adminis
tering these programs in all of the schools that are not
now the schools in which they are given?
A There would be difficulty. Some of these programs
could not be operated if they were spread on a much wider
basis. The first grade special program referred to as "Open
Highways" would be very difficult if not impossible to
administer. Others of these programs could be offered if
spread more widely. It would be impossible to concentrate
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the resources that we have in terms of money and personnel
as heavily on a child, and the effect would be a dilution,
it would seem to me, but some of them could be so dispersed.
Q Now, what particular problems would be encountered?
Would the teacher's Job be easier or more difficult?
A It would be more difficult for the teacher in that
if children from the Title I projects were dispersed widely,
the classroom teacher in most instances would have one or
very few of these children, and she would be— it would be
necessary for her to provide this special program for them
in addition to her regular teaching responsibilities with
the group she is teaching. So it would increase the diffi
culty of her Job to some extent.
Q Now, you mentioned the "Open Highways" program.
Why would it be impossible or very difficult to administer?
A The nature of this program is that these children
are identified at the preschool level. They are grouped
together as a class, and they have been kept together as a
class, a concentrated group, over at this point a two-
year period. If they were dispersed, then the concentration
effects of that program could not be accomplished.
Q Now, if a child is eligible for Title I help, if
he were removed to a school in which most of the students
were not eligible, would he be likely to receive more or
less benefit from Title I?
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A He would without doubt receive less benefits
than he is receiving from Title I funds. If that were the
case, I think we would have to re-think the Title I pro
grams to a large extent. They have been, Mr. Garrou,
children that have been assigned who live in the Title I
target areas who have been assigned to schools outside
that area under free choice of transfer, and it has been__
these children have lost the benefit of that Title I pro
gram by the transfer, because the evidence that we have so
far indicates that ovrbest assets are gained by concentra
ting on children with all of our resources and concentrating
on them at an early age.
Q Has there been any measurable progress as a
result of Title I programs?
A Yes, we have seen some measurable progress. I
would have to say that we have not seen the demonstrated
progress that we would hope for, or that we still hope for,
from these programs. The evidence of that is that over a
period<f several years we have modified our approach to
Title I services. When we began, we made an attempt to
provide services to all eligible children at every level,
grades 1 through 12, and we found that this broad, large
number made it difficult to provide sufficient impact to be
effective. So we have modified our programs on a number of
occasions and are now— but we are providing some services
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to older children - the greatest concentration is on younger
children. We feel and the evidence indiates that we can
make the greatest impact - the examples would be our pre
school and special first grade programs, which are the
largest parts of this total project.
Q W°Uld y0U descrlbe for us, please, your approach
to curriculum in the elementary schools?
A We have our general elementary curriculum is
pretty uniform, it follows the state pattern pretty
carefully, and the basic organization of the elementary
school is that of what we call a self-contained classroom,
where one teacher and one group of 25 to 30 children spend
eir entire day together, and that teacher teaches all of
the subjects to those children with some assistance from a
specialist in music and a librarian. That is the general
program in the elementary school.
0 Have there been any innovations developed in that
program?
A There have been a number of__
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I»d like to object
again for the same reason I previously stated.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I note here - with
reference to the other objection - that in paragraph
10(d) the plaintiffs allege the school lunch program is
operated on a discriminatory basis, both as to quantity
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-1001-
and quality, and in (j), the special school - which I
presume he is talking about - are operated by the
defendant and maintained in a way to favor white
students. Now, there are many allegations here and
it seems to me that this testimony is pertinent to
those allegations.
MK. CHAMBERS: I ’d like to go back to the motion
for preliminary injunction that we filed, Your Honor,
and if the Court were to require that these schools be
integrated, many of the allegations that we made in
the complaint perhaps would not be-- would become mute,
because the schools would then be Integrated as we
contend they should be, and we wouldn’t be talking
about some of the things we’re talking about now. The
testimony now does nothing but further delay what the
plaintiffs are entitled to receive, and that is a
completely desegregated school system.
MR. GARROU: Your Honor, Dr. Larsen testified at
length on Friday on the curriculum at the various
schools.
THE COURT: That was the plaintiffs' evidence,
and that was the purpose of Dr. Larsen being here.
Overruled. I realize that we are taking a lot of time
on this, but it was brought here and prior to the usual
discovery that you lawyers very well do on both sides,
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r & a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C q u r t R f p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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P h o n e 7 6 s . n f i i s
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and it is here taking what you usually take by way of
discovery. But I have no other choice other than to
get into it. So overrule the objection. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) I believe you were describing
the innovations in the curriculum in the elementary schools,
Mr. Sarbaugh.
A There are a lot of departures from this basic
pattern, fir. Garrou. Some of them I really wouldn't call
innovations. There are departures; there's nothing new
about many of them. But each elementary school has the
opportunity, as its principal and faculty study the needs
of the children in that school, to propose a departure in
organization which they feel will better meet the needs of
those children. It may be a special arrangement of grouping
for reading instruction - this is a case in many schools.
So there is that kind of departure in the way of innovation.
The tutorial program which I mentioned earlier at Lowrance
School as being exemplary is - I would say is one of our
most significant innovations and is really a national model,
I would say. And then the program which I mentioned
earlier, the comprehensive school improvement project at
Fairview, is probably our next most significant innovation
at the elementary level.
0 What types or forms of ability grouping do you
maintain in the elementary schools?
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A The elementary school is largely not grouped on
the basis of ability, but in these departures that I
mentioned, some schools will group their children for read
ing instruction on the basis of their reading achievement,
and in some instances they will group children on the basis
of their achievement level in arithmetic, and in a few
instances there are some classes where the students are
grouped on the basis of ability for all of their instruction.
This would be an unusual situation.
U Now, would you describe your form of curriculum
in the junior high schools?
A The junior high school program includes— it's
a transitional type program from the elementary, where the
child basically has one teacher all day, to the high school
where he has a different teacher every hour. So we have
some of both in the junior high. There is a long period of
what we call the block of time, about half of the child's
day is spent with one teacher in social studies and language
arts. The other half in individual subjects, some of which
are in academic areas and some of which are in areas of
special interest and exploration.
Q Is that same form then followed throughout the
system, Mr. Sarbaugh?
A Yes, it is, Mr. Garrou. Our junior high school
program is more nearly uniform, I would say, than either the
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elementary or the senior high.
Q Now, describe your form of curriculum in the
high schools.
A We have in the senior high school a system-wide
course of study. All courses are developed in writing -
that is the content of them, the scope and sequence of them,
and they are offered in the high school. As I believe Dr.
Larsen testified on Friday, all courses that are available
are initially offered in all high schools; students then
make their selections. And the high school program generally
has six teaching periods a day, and a student will take
four or five different courses for approximately one hour
each, and he will have usually one hour of supervised
study.
Q Now, how is it determined which courses will be
offered as opposed to given?
A In the senior high schools?
Q Correct.
A It is determined after a preliminary student
registration, which indicates pupil interest.
Q Let's go back. I'm talking about the original
list of courses that are given to each student. How is it
determined what courses will appear on the list?
A Oh, on the list of offerings?
Q Yes.
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A Generally nearly every course that we have
available is initially listed. In the individual school,
the principal and counsellors and faculty may have knowledge
that there are certain courses in which there is consistently
no pupil interest, and they may not include these. But by
and large, everything that is in our course of study is
offered initially in every high school.
Q Now, how is it determined whether or not the
course will be given as opposed to offered?
A That would be determined by the demand, the
student demand, after a preliminary registration, at which
time students express their interest in course offerings for
the following year. This is done in the early spring.
r> Now, suppose a student in a particular high school
expressed an interest by marking this form and that it was
later determined that it was not going to be given in that
school. Would there be any way for him to take the course?
A If the course were not going to be offered In his
school, he would be contacted to make an alternative choice.
One of those choices could be to request reassignment to a
school in which the course were offered. This is done
sometimes when a student has a course that he is particularly
interested in and there is a demand enough at a school.
Q Is it possible to take that course in that school
without transferring to that school?
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c c n c i A
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A I t ' s p o s s ib le ; i t ' s p r e t t y d i f f i c u l t to ta k e one
course in another school, because it is not always con
venient and it doesn't always fit the schedule, the time
schedule. The time schedule doesn't always fit. It is
possible, and if it can be arranged in the time schedule,
it can be done, and it has occurred in some instances.
Q But the easier method is for them to transfer to
the school?
A The easier method would be to transfer to the
school on a full-time basis.
Q Now, you said he was contacted. Who contacts him?
A This would be the function of the guidance depart
ment. At the time that students are— that the preliminary
registration is completed, any questions that have developed,
any courses that are not to be offered, or any student who
has made an error in his registration, would be individually
contacted and the matter would be discussed with him,
usually by a member of the guidance staff, sometimes by a
homeroom or a classroom teacher, sometimes by the principal.
Q Would you describe the vocational program in the
high schools?
A Yes, sir. We have what we feel is a somewhat
limited program in vocational education, and this has been
a matter of great concern to our Board of Education and
staff. What program we have, I would describe as consisting
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1007
Of two kinds of programs - one what we call the cooperative
program, and these students come to school part of the day
and spend part of the day on Jobs, working under supervision,
We have programs of this type in the area of distribution,
a program referred to as distributive education. And we
have a similar kind of program, a work-study program, in
the industrial area, where a student is placed in a skilled
trade area. So that is one phase of the vocational program.
In addition to that, we have a very limited trade preparatory
program, where all of the work is done in the school in a
vocational laboratory. We have such things as auto mechanics,
brick masonry, machine shop, painting and decorating, and
tailoring, in that category. And there is one other
cooperative program that I failed to mention, a cooperative
business education program, which is new in this state,
relatively new, in which we have only a small program, I
believe in two schools.
0 Now, which high schools contain these vocational
programs?
A There are some vocational programs in every high
school. They are not all the same in each high school.
Every high school has one or more of the cooperative pro
grams. The trade preparatory programs are concentrated in
two schools; one of them - the machine shop program - is at
Reynolds High School, and the other four - auto mechanics,
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masonry, painting and decorating and tailoring - are at
Atkins High School.
Q Do you have any white students taking these
programs at Atkins?
A Yes. These programs both at Atkins and at
Reynolds are available to students from all high schools,
and each high school has a quota which it is allowed, based
on the size of the school. There are some white students
in the program; however it is predominantly a Negro enroll
ment.
Q Nov/, what agency or agencies accredit your high
schools?
A Our high schools are accredited by the Southern
Association of Schools and Colleges, which is one of
several regional agencies that accredit both public and
private secondary and elementary schools and colleges and
universities, and ours is known as the Southern Association.
Q Now, is the accreditation from the Southern
Association always unqualified?
A There are degrees of accreditation. There is
full accreditation, which we would say gives the school a
clean bill of health, a clear accreditation. And then there
are several degrees in which deficiencies are noted. They
may accredit the school and point out certain weaknesses;
they may accredit the school and say that it is being given
w.
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a warning to correct these deficiencies - that's a little
more serious; the school may be on probation, and that's
still a more serious situation; and finally the school
could be dropped from membership.
Are there any fully accredited high schools in
the system?
A We have not had our accreditation reports for
the current year, Mr. Garrou. For last year, there was
only one accredited, fully accredited high school, and
that was Atkins High School. All the others had some
degree of deficiency - a warning or some kind of deficiency.
Q How do you allocate library books to your schools?
A We allocate funds to the school from our budget
on a pupil basis, and after that is done if additional
funds are available, they are allocated to schools which
have the greatest need, which have the smallest ratio of
books per pupil.
THE COURT: Before you get on with that subject,
what is the most common reason, if there is one, that
the schools in the system are not fully accredited?
THE WITNESS: I would say two, Your Honor. One
is facilities, overcrowded conditions, substandard
facilities, would be one, and the certification and
training of the teachers would be the other. A teacher
might be teaching in an area out of her major field of
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concentration, or she might have too many pupils, and
tliose would be the two primary reasons.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) What would be the reasons, Mr.
Sarbaugh, that one school would have fewer library books
than another school?
A The age of the school would be the biggest single
thing, Mr. Garrou. As the school years pass, the school
builds its library collection and increases it. That would
be the biggest single reason. And another thing would be
any major and substantial influx of students, would reduce
the ratio of books per pupil.
Q I believe you heard Dr. Larsen's testimony on
Friday and heard him describe his approach, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, considering his approach, are there any
administrative problems that would result, that would occur
if this approach were implemented during the school year?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Answer it; are there any administra
tive problems that would be in connection with Dr.
Larsen's proposal of the schools.
MF(. CHAMBERS: I call the Court's attention to
the recent Alexander case and the Carter case. The
Court doesn't consider administrative difficulties at
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this - the problem is whether the school board has
done what it is supposed to do.
THE COURT: Overruled. Answer that; that can be
a yes or no answer.
A I'm not sure of the question, Mr. Garrou.
THE COURT: Let me ask it; see if this is satis
factory. I think his question is if you put into
effect what Dr. Larsen recommends in this school
system, would there be any administrative problems.
Is that right, Mr. Garrou?
MR. GARROU: Yes, sir.
A There would be considerable administrative
problems and instructional problems as well.
THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel for
the plaintiff objects to the question. All right;
go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Would you describe some of these
problems for us, please?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A You are asking for problems that would arise from
immediate Implementation of his plan or at any time?
Q I am asking right now, for problems that would
arise from implementation during the school year.
A During the school year. The biggest of a number
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Phone 765 0636
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of serious problems that I would see in the movement of
children during the school year would be that very certainly
gaps in learning would occur. Teachers move at different
paces as they teach; there are different groups; they often
follow a different sequence in many of their courses; and
students would almost certainly in many instances miss
completely some whole segment of study that had been already
treated in the school they were coming to and had not as
yet been dealt with in the school they were leaving. So I
would say that this would be the single greatest problem.
In many schools, especially in the elementary schools, as
I have described the ways in which they are differently
organized for instruction in reading and mathematics,
acquainting the students with the new arrangement and
finding where he belongs, where his appropriate placement
was, in a new group would be a substantial and time-consuminf
problem.
THL COURT: I don't understand what you mean by
finding his placement. You mean in his class of 25 or
30?
THE WITNESS: In the group. If in a class of 25
or 30, the students were grouped for reading instruc
tion on the basis of their achievement level, determin
ing which of those ability groups he fitted into would
be some problem and would take time. It could be done;
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it would take time. In the secondary schools - this
would be most true in senior high; it would be true
to a lesser degree in Junior high schools. Students,
it would seem, would find themselves reassigned to
schools where the courses they were taking were not
available, and this could be a substantial problem.
It would be particularly a problem for seniors, and -
weil, for any student, but most aggravated for those
who are in the twelfth grade. It seems to me that
any major movement of pupils in mid-year might well
caH f°r some further teacher reassignments beyond
the ones that we are just experiencing today.
Q U y Mr. Garrou) What would be the reason for
that?
A Well, for an example, it's very likely that more
students taking French, we will say, might be reassigned to
a new school than could be accommodated with the existing
staff, and there would be some who were taking a different
language might be transferred away, so there would likely
be a need for some shifting of teachers to accommodate the
requirements as best they could be accommodated. And then
ofoourse our teachers and students are beginning to
experience disruptive adjustment period today, and pupil
assignment in the middle of a semester would result for
many, many children in still another pupil-teacher adjustment
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d u r in g th e m id d le o f th e n e x t sem este r
Q Would there be any likelihood of individual
students having difficulties in graduating or getting into
a college?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A It is conceivable that there would be difficulty.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, that answer is entirely
speculative, and I move that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Motion denied. Go ahead.
A On two counts it would seem that this could be a
possibility. First, that the student would be unable to
complete a course in progress - that’s a possibility.
Second, that the marginal student who is having difficulty
anyway, this might be the thing that would cause him to fail
to successfully complete the course.
THE COURT: Well, it is very speculative about
that.
THE WITNESS: It is, yes, sir.
MR. GARROU: Your Honor, I ’d like to continue
this line with one or two more questions.
THE COURT: That is highly speculative, that part
of it - I ’m leaving it in.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) You have closed schools before
in the consolidated high schools?
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A Yes.
Q Do you have any experiences resulting in those
actions that would help you make a Judgment as to whether
or not more students would or would not drop out - as to
whether or not more students would drop out or would fail
to graduate?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to that on
the some grounds, that that, too, is clearly specula
tive. There's no indication in the record whether
the closing of those schools had any correlation to
what we have, and the proposal that the plaintiffs
are making here. Secondly—
THE COURT: I sustain the objection. As you
gentlemen know, in these cases in times past when we
heard them, much evidence had been introduced that
would not be in the ordinary suit allowed, and I am
pretty liberal with letting it in, but I don’t believe
I'll let you follow that line, Mr. Garrou.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, would there be any problems
in the area of extra-curricular activities that would result
from mid-year reassignment of pupils?
A There likely would be. Each school has its
unique student activity program, of clubs and special
interest activities, and to a large extent the same kind of
problems that would arise with respect to courses - that is
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the class work - might well occur in terms of activities.
Q Back to the class work aspect of it a minute, Mr.
Sarbaugh, what system of grading and reporting would you
use after a mid-year assignment - reassignment?
A If you reassign children in the middle of a grading
period, you would have two teachers responsible for the
evaluation of their work, theirassessment of their grade,
and that would be difficult. It would require the two
teachers to get together to arrive, I suppose, at a grade
for that particular grading period. This was one of the
reasons - not one of the major reasons - but certainly was
a reason why the Board of Education chose to make its
faculty reassignments at the end of a semester, at the end
of a break in the academic year and at the end of a grading
period.
Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, in your opinion, would there be
any psychological effect on students resulting from a mid
year reassignment?
MTi. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't know what
qualifications Mr. Sarbaugh has to give an opinion as
to psychology. They haven't qualified him as an
expert.
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, Mr. Chambers, was not
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-10]
qualified as an expert, but he had been in the field
of education for many years. And as you will recall
in these cases, we have allowed educators for the
plaintiffs to give opinions debatable about whether
ordinarily he could or not, X can’t make a difference
in this case. It's in the record — how long have you
been in education?
THE WITNESS: This is my twenty-first year.
THE COURT: Have you ever done anything else in
your gainful adult life?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Overruled; go ahead.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I ’d like to indicate
for the record another basis, that this question is
irrelevant also.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record so show.
All right; you may go ahead.
A it would seem to me that a mid-semester reassign
ment of pupils would have some harmful effects. I think on
normal children these effects would be perhaps short-lived
and not terribly serious, but I think there would be some
especially with young children who have a great sense of
security, a strong sense of security and attachment to their
teacher, to their classroom, to their school routine, and
their routine is a great deal of their security that they
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feel, particularly with very young children. And then the
other group that I feel would have - from my experience -
most likely have some that would be affected, would be the
pre-teen and early adolescent age group, which is at best a
period of heightened emotion and a period when the crowd,
or the peer group, is of the ultimate importance.
Q Mr. Sarbaugh, I show you a document marked
Defendants’ Exhibit 34, and I ask you what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 34
for identification.)
A This is a research project done by the Research
Department of our school system, dealing with the reading
achievement of Negro 6th grade pupils in white schools in
1967- 68.
Q Have you got a copy of that with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, was this document, Exhibit 34, prepared under
your supervision?
A Yes, sir, it was.
0 And who prepared it?
A Dr. James Sifford, our director of research.
0 What was the purpose of having it prepared?
A The purpose was to compare these— comparison of
achievement, to help us to begin to try to answer the
question of whether or not achievement on the part of Negro
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children would be enhanced in an integrated school situation
•i And what was the conclusion of the report?
A Mr. Garrou, this research and all of the other
that we have done, and nearly every other piece of research
in education, has some substantial limitations, and I want
to say for the record that that is the case, before I go
into this. Any piece of educational research is valid for
the children that are involved at the time it was done and
is limited by the instrument that is used to measure. So
I want to make sure that that is clear. And then I would
say—
MR. CHAMBER: Your Honor, I'd like to object to
the document and testimony with respect to it.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A That this particular study, we feel the results
of it are certainly inconclusive, but there are two or
three findings which we at least have taken note of. That's
about the best way I know how to put it.
Q Mr- Garrou) And what are those findings?
A First that a Negro student who has spent at least
two years in a predominantly white school achieves - in the
study - achieved at about the same level as he would have
if he remained in a predominantly Negro school.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I submit that this
testimony and this document is clearly irrelevant to
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- 1020 -
the proceeding. We are— that problem has already
been determined. I don't see whether kids achieving
at a higher level in any of the schools can have any
relevance to this case.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I haven’t had an oppor
tunity to go through sixty-odd exhibits that you all
introduced, but I am sure that I will find in there
much of this very, very same thing.
MR. CHAMBERS: I submit that you will not, Your
Honor. The only thing we have in those exhibits are
documents about statistics, basically. Now we're
talking about what relevance a black kid going to a
white school achieving is going to have in this pro
ceeding. I don't see where that has any relevance.
THE COURT: I don't rightly recall about Dr.
Larsen, whether it was brought out on direct or whether
it was brought out on cross examination, but this is
exactly what was talked about and so forth practically
all day Friday, and it was unobjected to and so forth.
What do you say, Mr. Womble? This is taking an inordi
nate long time to hear this matter, and as you lawyers
know, these matters are usually explored in discovery,
and you're willing to go at it, but a motion was made
here and I felt that I should hear it. I changed my
schedules around so that I could hear it, and I am
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doing the best I can to hear it thoroughly and im
partially, and in all of these cases there las always
gone in an unusual amount of incompetent testimony on
both sides. I have seen books go in - they will hand
him the book and say "What educator wrote this”, and
that's been introduced for me to read. We all know
that that violates any rule of evidence. Mr. Womble,
do you have something?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I was going to point out
what the Court just mentioned with reference to Dr.
Larsen, and I was also going to point out that it is
not our purpose or intention to relitigate Brown. It
seems to us that one of the very serious questions in
this case is whether or not the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education is operating a unitary school
system, and we are of the opinion and believe that the
determination of the unitary school system is not
solely a matter of numbers, but it is the kind of
system that you operate - it is the educational offering
you give throughout the system, and it is in some
measure indicated by the results you achieve.
Now, for example on this, the fact that the tests
indicated that the child who spent two years in a pre
dominantly white school in this community achieved at
about the same level as if he had remained in the
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predominantly or all black school, we say is an indica
tion that this school system is across the board doing
the best it can to offer a uniform educational program
that is designed to serve the needs of the child as
best the system can, and that the only exceptions,
really, that are made in uniformity are in the directior
of helping a child who needs help more than someone
else, and that is not a matter of race, it's a matter
of operating in a sound educational manner a public
school system that is in a true sense a unitary system
and not a dual system.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would like to leave
my objection, and before the Court cares to dispose of
it, I think that the evidence is irrelevant and I'd
Just like to note the objection for the record.
THE COURT: Overruled. Let's get on through this
highly controversial part of it as quickly as we can.
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Now, I show you Defendants'
Exhibit 35, Mr. Sarbaugh, and I ask you what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants* Exhibit No. 35
for identification.)
A This is an additional research project, a later
one than the one I have just referred to, and it is a study
of test scores and academic marks made by Negro elementary
pupils who were enrolled in the predominantly white school
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during 1968-69 school year.
0 Was that study made under your supervision?
A Yes, sir, it was.
Q And what was the conclusion of the study?
A Well, again—
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to note the same objection,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that
counsel for the plaintiffs objects. Overruled.
A I think that I would have to say in summary of
the conclusion, Mr. Garrou, that the conclusions are again
inconclusive tc some extent. For the most part, this
research shows no significant difference in the achievement
of Negro elementary pupils in predominantly white schools
than what their achievement would have been had they
remained in Negro schools. There is in this study an
exception to that in the area of arithmetic, and the Negro
youngsters in the predominantly white schools did make a
higher level of performance in arithmetic than was the
average for Negro students in the predominantly Negro school!
So that would be the one conclusion, and then the other
would be that Negro children, when they transfer to pre
dominantly white schools, make poorer academic marks - they
make fewer A, B's and C's and more D's and F’s.
MR. GARROU: At this time, Your Honor, we'd like
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to offer into evidence Defendants' Exhibits 32, 33, 3 4
and 35.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendants'
Exhibits 33 through 35 inclusive are received into the
evidence; that the plaintiffs object and except to
this ruling by the Court.
MR. GARROU: And 32, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That's 32, 33, 34, 35 are
received into the evidence.
MR. CHAMBERS: We object, Your Honor, to Exhibits
34 and 35.
THE COURT: Amend the record to show counsel•s
objection to Defendants' Exhibits 34 and 3 5 .
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bits Nos. 32 through 3 5 inclusive
for identification, were received in evidence.)
MR. GARROU: That's all we have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Sarbaugh, how long have
you been in the school system?
A I'm sorry?
Q How long have you been in the school system?
A This is my twenty-first year.
Q Your job title now is associate superintendent?
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A Associate superintendent.
Q I show you some of the documents that were attached
to interrogatories that were filed by the School Board -
the second set of answers to interrogatories - and ask you
if you have seen those documents before.
A I have not seen these documents exactly, but I
have seen similar documents.
Q Would you look at the one pertaining to students?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you go through that document and tell us
how many of the elementary school systems are entirely
Negro?
A All right, sir. Do you want me to name them, or
just by numbers?
Q Name them, if you don't mind.
A Brown Elementary, Carver Crest—
THE COURT: Now, are you naming all elementary
together?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, Your Honor. These are
grouped that way. There will be elementary and then
junior, I believe. Yes, sir. These are elementary
schools.
THE COURT: All right.
A Diggs, Fairview, 14th Street, Kimberly Park,
Mebane, North Elementary, Skyland - and those are the
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elementary schools.
Q Now, would you name the schools that are entirely
white elementary schools?
A Bolton, Children's Home, Griffith, Moore, Sherwood
Forest, South Fork - those are the elementary schools that
are all white.
Q Now, would you tell the Court whether those
schools that you have Just named have been either all black
or all white since you have been in this school system?
A Many of these schools in the former city system,
since my association prior to '63 was with the county, I
can't really speak for positively, Mr. Chambers.
Q Since the merger of the school system?
A Since the merger I think I can. I believe that
since 1963, with possible exception of North Elementary,
there has been no change in either group of these schools.
Q Why did you think there would be some exception
with North Elementary?
A It was at about that time that there were some
residential changes in that area, in North Elementary,
which had been a predominantly or all white elementary
school, has changed and is now an all black school, and it
was at about that time, I believe, Just before the merger
that this occurred.
Q Now, I believe that Lowrance Elementary School is
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a school that changed from all white to all black, or
predominantly black?
A Yes. At the time of the merger of the two school
systems, I believe it was all or certainly predominantly a
white schools.
Q And now?
A Now it is predominantly a Negro school.
Q Would you go through and name the all black Junior
high schools?
A Anderson, Carver, Kennedy, Paisley, are the all
black Junior high schools.
Q I believe that Hanes has about ten white students
out of a total of about 540 students?
A That's about correct, yes, sir.
Q Would you name the all white Junior high schools?
A Children's Home, Griffith; they appear to be the
only all white.
Q Would you name the all black senior high schools?
A Anderson, Atkins, Carver.
Q Would you name the all white senior high schools?
A I believe there is none that is all white.
Q Now, a substantial number of the schools that
have some racial mix have less than ten percent, is that
correct?
A That's correct, yes.
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Q And that’s all shown in that exhibit that you have
there in your hand?
A It is shown by number, yes.
Q I show you also a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 26,
and I ask if you have seen this document before?
A Yes, sir, I've seen this.
0 In fact that document shows the racial composition
of the schools as of December 1969?
A That's correct.
Q And that document shows that the schools which
you have named as being all white or all black are still
all white or all black, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And the schools that have been predominantly
white or predominantly black are still predominantly white_
In other words, you haven't had any substantial change in
the racial composition of the schools among students?
A Certainly not with respect to those schools that
are all white and all black, no, we have not.
What about those that have been predominantly
white or predominantly black?
A There has been some increase in pupil desegrega
tion in some of those schools.
Q Would you point those out?
A Are you asking me since that report and this one?
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I misunderstood you.
« Sine® this voyovt,
A 1 would say that there was no substantial change;
I misunderstood your question.
Q As I recall, you testified about some integration
of teachers taking place at the beginning— when was it?
Monday?
A Yes.
Q Did you have anything to do with the reassignment
of teachers?
A Not anything— well, yes, I had something to do
with the actual reassignment of them.
Q Do y°u th© present racial composition of the
faculties at each school in the system as of today?
A I do not know the exact figures school by school
as of today.
Q Do you know who would have that information?
A I would think that the superintendent would have
that.
All right. Do you know, Mr. Sarbaugh, of any plan
presently that the School Board has to integrate all of the
cChools in the system?
A I do not.
Q Mow, do you recall back in 1965 some consideration
)y HEW of the North Carolina Department of Instruction on
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the use of Title I f u n d s i n i n t e g r a t i o n o f t h e s c h o o l s ?
A N o , s i r .
Q Do you recall the ten percent r u l e a b o u t ESEA
funds would not be cut off by the fact t h a t o n e o r tw o
students transferred to a school that was n o t q u a l i f i e d ?
A I know that funds a r e n o t c u t o f f f o r c h i l d r e n
who transfer out of the T i t l e I a r e a , y e s .
0 I'll a s k you n o w , M r. S a r b a u g h , i s n ’ t i t a f a c t
that either in 1 9 6 5 - 6 6 o r ' 6 7 , HEW h a s a d o p t e d a r e g u l a t i o n
to the effect t h a t t h e mere fact t h a t b l a c k s t u d e n t s w ho
qualify for ESEA f u n d s t r a n s f e r r e d t o p r e d o m i n a n t l y w h i t e
schools, that w o u ld n o t c u t o f f t h e f u n d s o f t h e s e s t u d e n t s ?
A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t , y e s .
Q As I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y , y o u a r e s a y i n g
that because these s t u d e n t s a r e t h e r e a n d a r e p a r t i c i p a t i n g
in ESEA programs, it w o u ld b e b e s t n o t t o i n t e g r a t e a n d
leave the students there s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d c o n t i n u e t o
receive those funds. Is t h a t w h a t y o u ' r e s a y i n g ?
MR. GARROU: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A I don't b e l i e v e that that's w h a t I s a i d , M r.
Chambers.
Q Could you e x p l a i n i t ?
A I'll try. I n a n s w e r t o t h e q u e s t i o n , I s a i d
t h a t i t would be d i f f i c u l t t o c o n t i n u e t h e p r o g r a m s t h a t
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are now being carried on effectively if they were spread to
all schools in the system.
Q Let's talk about how you would say you would
qualify schools. Would you tell the Court the federal and
state rule now qualifying schools for ESEA funds, Title I?
A To the best of my ability. As I understand it,
a school is qualified if it is in a residential area where
the poverty concentration exceeds that of the community at
large.
Q Is it based on the residential area, or the
number of students who are in the school whose parents earn
less than $3,000.00 a year?
A It is based— it has nothing to do with the school
pei' se.
Q Does it have anything to do with the residential
area?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that regulation you are talking about?
A Well, the best I know is what I ’ve just told you.
Q Did you receive in 1968 and in 1969 a regulation
from the State Department of Public Instruction, Title I
office, regarding how schools qualified for ESEA funds?
A I don't recall directly. I'm sure if one was
sent, we did receive it.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, if you are at a point
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where you need to look up some information— we usually
take a morning recess at about this time; would it be
helpful to take it now?
MK. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
11LL COURT: All right, Mr. Sarbaugh, you may
come down for the moment.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Sarbaugh, will you come back to
the stand, please?
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Sarbaugh, I»ll ask you
again if the basis for determining the eligibility of
schools for ESEA funds is not to count the number of child
ren in a school whose parents earn less than a set minimum
per year?
A My understanding is that it is not the basis.
The procedure is not to count the children in the school,
but to identify the economic poverty concentration in the
geographic area, and that the school so located in that
area then becomes eligible.
Q How do you determine the area?
A I believe that was initially done by census tract,
Mr. Chambers, if my memory is right.
0 You're not positive of that?
A I'm not positive. That was done in 1965, and
I'm not positive.
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Q Would you have records in your office that shows
the basis for determining the area?
A Yes, I would have, because at the time we made
application we were required to submit this information.
Q By census tract?
A That's my memory on it.
Q Well, you haven't considered, have you, how the
iesults of the students below the poverty area would be
in the various schools to be integrated?
A I'm not sure I understand you.
0 I understood your testimony a moment ago to be
that if you integrate the schools, you would have some
difficulty in carrying out some of the programs as you now
operate?
A I was saying that if we attempted to disperse the
Title J programs to all schools, that it would be difficult
to administer them.
Q You're not considering then integrating the
schools and carrying on the Title I program?
A For whatever we might disperse them.
0 What condition would you be talking about in
dispersing the Title I programs for all schools?
A To follow eligible children.
Q Now, have you considered how many eligible
children will be going to each school?
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A No.
t Ec what you are saying is highly speculative of
what effect it would have on the existing program?
A Yes, the effect would depend upon the pupil assign-
plan.
q At the present, you do not know what that assign
ment would be?
A I do not.
Q I think you testified you had eleven schools that
presently qualify as Title I schools?
A Eleven elementary schools, yes, sir.
Q Is it true that Title I funds are to be used to
supplement existing programs?
A Yes.
0 I understood you to say that you had a program
under Title I called the pupil personnel services program?
A Yes.
Q How is the program used to supplement existing
programs?
A It is used by increasing the concentration of
social workers and nurses in the Title I area beyond the
number that are provided through local funds.
q Would these five social workers in the other 49
elementary schools be paid for by Title I money?
A No, they are not paid for with Title I money.
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Q How a re th e y p a id fo r ?
A They are paid for out of the county generally,
the expense budget.
Q Do you have any of the eleven social workers in
the Title I paid for by local money?
A No, they're all paid for with Title I money.
Q So you supplement some of the non-qualifying
schools with local money and then the qualifying schools
you use only Title I money for this pupil personnel service
px'Ogram?
A Except that the director of pupil personnel
services and the five district workers also provide services
in the Title I area.
0 What is that? I thought they were assigned to
the 49 other schools that didn't qualify.
A Well, their major duties are in the 49 other
schools, but they provide services also in the Title I area.
Q Do you have anyone paid for by local funds in -
social workers, in any of the qualifying eleven elementary
schools?
A Not on a full-time, no.
Q Or assigned there as a major part of their work?
A Nor assigned there as a major part of their work.
Q You didn't testify about a predominantly white
school that has some special program - Parkview, I believe
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it is?
A Forest Park.
Q Parkview, isn't it?
A No, sir, we don't have a Parkview school.
THE COURT: Parkland?
A Parkland?
Q Parkland.
A A high school.
Q Did you have a special program there?
A Yes, we do. In fact, we have several special
programs at the senior high school level. I didn't testify
about any of those, I believe.
0 That’s an all white school or predominantly white
school?
A Except— yes, they are all in predominantly white
high schools.
Q Do they qualify for Title I money?
A No.
Q Y/here do you get the money?
A Let me correct that. There is some limited Title
I money in one of those schools - that is Reynolds High
Dchool.
Q Is that because of some Negroes that attend
Reynolds High School?
A That's correct.
g r a h a m F . RL A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O l F K I A L COUHI RFPOHTF.HS
A S H E D R I V E
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Phone 76 5 0 6 3 6
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In fact, if you had Negroes attending all of theU
senior high schools, you probably would have more of the
senior high schools qualify, would you not?
A Any school in which an eligible child attends—
Q Would qualify?
A Qualifies for services to that child.
Q Looking at your food services, do you have free
lunches in all of the elementary, junior high, and senior
high schools?
A We have free lunches available on the basis of
need in all schools.
Q Do you operate it in all of the schools in the
system?
A Yes. It's operated in all schools.
Q Do you have any differences in your lunch program
for the Negro and the white schools, actual differences?
A We have a difference in lunches with respect to
the special assistance lunch program which I described
earlier.
Q Are those lunches available only in Negro schools?
Mil. GARROU: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A They are available only in Negro schools.
Q I think you testified to that in deposition,
didn’t you, Mr. Darbaugh, that those were available only in
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the Negro Schools?
A Mr. Chambers, I personally perhaps did not
testify to that, because that would be an area which
another staff member might have more competence.
Q At least that is a fact, is it not?
A To my knowledge, that’s a fact.
0 Do you know why it’s limited only to Negro
schools?
A I do not.
Q Do you not have an opinion that it serves as a
deterrent to Negro students transferring because they
wouldn't have these services available in a predominantly
white school?
A I would doubt that that would be a deterrent.
0 At present you wouldn't have any program available
at the white school if the Negro student transferred?
A You would have availability of a completely free
lunch if the child had need for it.
Q But not the lunch he is getting at the present
school?
A But not this special assistance program.
0 You didn't testify about ability groupings in
the junior high and senior high schools; do you have it?
A In some junior and some senior highs we do and
some we do not.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
OrfK ial Court Reporters
A S H E D R I V E
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Phone 765 0636
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Q T e l l us w h ic h ones in th e s e n io r h ig h s c h o o ls ,
where you have ability groupings.
A In the senior high schools, the ability grouping
occurs largely on the basis of the selection of courses.
If 1 may illustrate by mathematics, a student who elects
an advanced level course in mathematics may do so only if
he has met the prerequisites, and to that extent that is an
ability group. There are some - in some of the required
courses, there are some levels, English is an example.
There are several different achievement levels of English,
and students are grouped into the level which seems most
appropriate for1 them. This is true in most of the senior
high schools.
CJ Which high schools have ability grouping?
A To my knowledge, all of our high schools have
some ability grouping of this kind.
Q Now, you said there were some other ability
groupings on the basis of course offerings?
A Yes.
U What are some of the courses which would qualify
for ability grouping?
A As I said, advanced math, and advanced courses in
science.
U Languages?
A Possibly the advanced language courses might be.
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The student who takes the advanced levels of foreign language
up to the third, fourth and fifth year, is college bound
and generally has a higher degree of academic aptitude and
therefore it's a pretty homogeneous group, I would say.
0 Is it true, Mr. Sarbaugh, that this kind of
ability grouping takes place only in the white high school?
MFv. WOMDLE: We object to the term "white" and
"Negro". The evidence shows what the composition of
the schools is.
THE COURT: I will sort that out when I look
through this. Overruled.
A It is not true that grouping occurs only in the
predominantly white high school.
Q On the basis of course offerings, do you mean?
A On either basis.
Q Which Negro high school has ability groupings on
the basis of course offerings?
A All of them would.
0 Atkins has?
A Yes.
0 You have seen the answers to interrogatories
prepared by the School Board in this case, have you not,
dealing with course offerings?
A I have seen the answers to interrogatories which
1 submitted.
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Q Did you see your answer to interrogatory seven?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the senior high schools there.
Tell the Court which ability grouping Atkins High School
has on the basis of the courses offered.
A On the basis of course offerings, Journalism II
would be the first one I come to. Remedial math.
0 Is that ability grouping?
A Yes.
U Advanced ability grouping?
A On the other extreme.
THE COURT: You said journalism and what?
THE WITNESS: Journalism II and remedial math.
That would be for students who had difficulty in
mathematics and who were not ready for a general
mathematics course. They would be grouped together.
Algebra II, intermediate algebra and trigonometry,
fourth-year math, fifth-year math is listed here -
no, I'm sorry, that's geometry. Geometry would be one.
Chemistry, physics.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Aren't those basic courses?
A Those are courses in which a substantial degree
of ability is required for participation and success. The
student who takes those courses - except for the remedial
math - would have demonstrated a high degree of academic
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competence, and therefore would be in an ability or homo
geneous group.
0 Have you seen the basic curricula required by the
State Department of Instruction?
A Yes.
0 Isn't it true that the courses that you've Just
named, with the exception of remedial math and Journalism,
are required courses by the State Department?
A No, they're not required courses. They are
state courses; they're not required.
Q The state does not require that unit for graduatior
from high school?
A The state requires none of the courses that I have
listed for graduation.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would Just like to
call the Court's attention at this Juncture, in connec
tion with this testimony, to the exhibits that have
been introduced by the plaintiff, answers to interro
gatories of the State Board of Education.
THE COURT: Can you help me? You can do that
later if you wish. The particular— do you have a list
of the exhibits?
MR. CHAMBERS: It is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 50; it is
the answer of the State Board of Education to plaintiffs'
interrogatory eight.
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THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Now, would you look at the list
and tell us the ability groupings you had for Reynolds High
School in course offerings?
A In course offerings? Dramatics II, speech II,
advanced composition, advanced placement English—
Q Advanced placement—
A Advanced placement English. That course is
offered at Reynolds but is open for students at all schools.
All of the advanced placement courses are offered at Reynolds
but are open to students in all schools.
0 Can a student from North Forsyth go over to
Reynolds just for that course?
A Yes.
Q Does that happen?
A That does happen.
0 You don't have any difficulty in scheduling of
classes like you indicated a moment ago?
A We do have a little difficulty. We schedule the
advanced placement classes consciously with that in mind,
at the beginning and at the end of the day, to accommodate
students from all of the other high schools.
0 How many Negroes do you have in Reynolds in those
advanced courses?
A I don't know the number, Mr. Chambers. There are
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some Negroes in that program, which would he predominantly
white.
Q Could you give us any other advanced course levels
A Algebra II and intermediate algebra and trig,
fourth-year math, geometry, fifth-year math, advanced place
ment math - like the advanced placement English - chemistry,
physics, and advanced placement biology, and advanced
placement chemistry.
0 Now, those courses that are offered like that at
the other high schools would be classified as ability
groupings as for courses offered?
A The effect of offering those courses would be to
create an ability group.
0 How does one qualify for one of those courses?
A On the basis of past performance and demonstrated
interest.
0 Does he have to do anything else besides register
for the course?
A He would have to be approved for these courses
in most instances by the counsellor, or possibly by the
chairman of the department in which that course was offered,
as having met the prerequisites and being qualified.
Q Now, could you give us some objective things that
you would follow in determining whether one qualifies for
those courses? Do you have anything written down anywhere
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O r m < i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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-1045
to determine whether one qualifies for those courses?
A Some of the individual schools may have some
things written down. I would say that generally it is the
marks they have made in previous courses in that area, and
the recommendations of the teachers that have taught them
prior to this time.
0 Do you have anything out of your office, any
written records, to determine whether one would qualify for
one of the courses?
A Only to the extent that there may be certain other
course prerequisites; that is, a student would not be
eligible to take algebra II until he had successfully
completeled algebra I, but beyond that, none.
0 That's the thing I'm trying to get to. The only
thing one has to do is to complete the preceding course?
A No, not actually. That is one of the requirements.
He would then be - if there was doubt as to his ability to
succeed in the next higher level, he would be discouraged
from going on.
Q And the counsellor would do the discouraging?
A The counsellor or the department chairman, or
perhaps the teacher who has taught him the previous course.
Q You don't have any written regulations to deter
mine what standards the counsellor or whatever other person
is making the determination is to be governed on?
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Or r i a i C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A We do not, no.
Q I always conceive of ability grouping as using
a test score to decide whether one would be in advanced
ability grouping, or medium, or low.
A You have reference to the other type of grouping
to which 1 referred, the grouping in the required courses.
Q You do have that in every high school in the
system?
A Yes.
Q Now, suppose one qualifies as below standard or
average, what course offerings would he be required to take?
A Every high school student has certain things that
he's required to take, and then he has certain opportunities
for election.
0 Do you have a section in English for the below-
standard ability course?
A Yes, we have several different levels of English,
and that is the other kind of ability grouping with which
you are more familiar, I believe.
Q How would that differ from English I, English II
and English III?
A Well, English I - well, let's take English II
because English I is taught in the ninth grade in conjunction
with the social studies block of time. English II, there
would be several different levels of English II. There
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would be an accelerated level of English II for the students
who were the fastest moving; there would be a basic level
of English II for the students who had reading difficulties
and who needed special help; and there would be then
several groups of intermediate levels, as many as - in our
senior high school program, there are five different levels
in some of these courses, ranging from special education
to advanced placement.
Q Do you give a testto determine what level the
student will be in?
A We don't give a special test; we have a system-
wide testing program which is administered routinely at
several different grade levels. That is one of the factors
that is used, and then marks, school marks, in previous
courses is also used, and recommendations from the teacher.
Q Do you have any written records or standards to
govern which section a student will be in?
A We don't have any, no, except to describe the
kind of student that each of these courses is designed for.
Q But no objective standards?
A No.
0 Have you checked the ability groupings at Reynolds
High School?
A No, I haven't.
Q Have you checked the ones at North?
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O f h i i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A No, sir.
0 Do you know what section or division the Negroes
at Reynolds fall into, in ability grouping?
A I don't know as a matter of fact, as a matter of
certainty, fir. Chambers.
0 Who would have the records for that? Who would
know?
A Who would know? Well, that would be in the—
that information would be in the individual school and might
conceivably be identifiable from records in the guidance
office where our schedules are maintained, and these classes
are coded so that you can determine whether English II in
Room 201 at the first hour is as we call it a three-level
course, a two-level course, and so on. It would be a matter
of going to those records and then determining the racial
makeup of the classes.
Q Do you have a section within the superintendent's
called Testing and Research?
A We have a section called Research and Statistical
Service.
0 Is that the section that controls the testing?
A That's the section which handles the test scoring
and the assimilation of test results.
Q Does it select the test that's used?
A No, the tests are selected by a system-wide
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committee composed of teachers, counsellors, and administra
tors .
0 Who is the head of that section?
A Dr. James Sifford.
q Would you tell the Court why your vocational
offerings at Carver and Atkins and Anderson High School
differ from the course offerings at the other high schools
in the system?
A Except as it relates to the size, I don't believe
that there is a difference, a substantial difference, in
Anderson and Carver. The vocational offering at Atkins is
more substantial because of the location of the trade
preparatory classes there.
Q Well, let's see. I show you again the exhibit
attached to your answer to interrogatory seven. Is home
economics a vocational course as you have interpreted it?
A It is classified as a vocational course by the
State Department of Public Instruction.
0 Is industrial arts classified as a vocational
course?
A No.
Q It is not. The last page of this answer shows
vocational education. That shows the course offerings at
each of the senior high schools in the system in vocation?
A Yes.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q Not all schools offer the same vocational courses?
A No, they do not.
Q My question again is why the difference between
the course offerings at the Negro schools and the course
offerings at the white schools?
A Except for the courses in agriculture, which are
offered at three schools - East Forsyth, North Forsyth, and
West Forsyth - I don't see a substantial distinction, Mr.
Chambers.
0 Well, are there differences in the course offer
ings in addition to those courses?
A The other difference is that students " of
education is offered at Carver.
0 Is there anything else?
A Marketing, which is a related— a course related
to distributive education, is offered at only three schools
and is not offered at any of the Negro schools.
Q Isn't there another course, too?
A I'm trying— I can't find it.
THE COURT: What three are those?
THE WITNESS: Those three are East Forsyth —
it's difficult to read those things - North Forsyth,
and Parkland.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers asked if there were
others, and that's the question before you now. I
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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realize that it will take some tine to find it.
A I cannot identify another, Mr. Chambers. There
may be one I am missing on here.
q Do you know why those courses are not offered at
the Negro schools that you named?
A The distributive education course is not offered
at Carver because of the size of that school, and now I see
the other one and it is the industrial cooperative training,
which on this sheet shows that it is not offered at Anderson
and Atkins, which since that time has a program, has been
instituted at Atkins High School in this area.
Q Has it been instituted at Anderson?
A No, it has not.
Q Do you know why those courses are not offered at
the Negro schools?
A The reason is that those two schools are quite
small in student enrollment, and it is difficult to sustain
even one cooperative program, much less two. So we have
offered only one of these cooperative programs in both of
those schools.
Q What about Atkins?
A Atkins now has a program in both areas, distribu
tive education, a very strong program, although it does not
show on this exhibit. A program is now in operation there
as of the 1969-70 school year.
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O h k i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q Why wasn't it operated in 1968-69?
A There were additional positions allotted at the
beginning of the 1969-70 school year, and one of them was
for that purpose.
0 What do you mean about allotted positions?
A Additional state funds were allotted for vocational
education.
Q Why didn't the local Board of Education allot
one of those teachers to Atkins last year?
A The only answer I can give you is that the total
vocational program there is much more substantial than at
any other school, and Atkins students take greater advantage
of the trade programs than the students from the other
schools.
0 That's the only reason you can assign personally
presently?
A Yes.
Q I show you an exhibit and answer to interrogatory
39. I ask you if that exhibit shows the test scores of the
students of grades 1 through 12 in the high school as of
the date indicated?
A This shows the average scores on the standardized
achievement tests which we admister at grades 3, 6, 8 and 10
throughout the school system by school.
Q Would you look at the last page?
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A Yes.
THE COURT: Which exhibit are we referring to?
MR. CHAMBERS: That the defendants* answer to
interrogatory 39.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Would you tell us whether there is a difference
between the average score in the Negro schools and the white
schools, high school?
A There is a difference.
Q Would you tell us what accounts for that difference
A I don't know how to say what accounts for it, Mr.
Chambers. If it were something correctable, I would have
tried to correct it. I would say that it is a cumulative
deficit that these children bring through the school years,
through their school years, from a beginning at which they
have had less opportunity and less readiness for school,
and that as they progress through school, this deficit
becomes cumulative and increases.
Q Do you have a copy of your Exhibit 34?
A Is that—
Q Your study.
A Yes. I'm not sure which is 34.
0 I think that's the early one.
A Yes, I do have that.
0 Would you look at grade one on that exhibit?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A That's a study of sixth grade pupils.
Q What about the entering grade? Do you have that
shown on that exhibit?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Do you have the entering grade one on that exhibits
A No, I believe not. That exhibit seems to deal
with sixth grade only, and the achievement at sixth grade
as related to I.Q.
Q I see. So that doesn't do anything but test
the kid at the sixth grade level?
A it tests his reading achievement at the sixth
grade level.
Q Does it compare it with the third grade level or
the ninth grade level or anything?
A It compares it with the average Negro students
who are not attending predominantly white schools.
Q How long had the children in that example been in
the predominantly white school?
A Two years or more.
Q Now, have you checked the grade achievement level
of the children after they complete the sixth grade, say,
in the ninth grade, to make any kind of comparison?
A We have not made any more recent studies than the
two which we discussed here, the last one being in July of
'69.
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Q Did the last one test the children in the ninth
grade or sixth grade?
A No, we tested elementary children again.
0 In the sixth grade?
A I believe it dealt with children in the third
grade and sixth grade.
Q Well, was there any comparison between the
children in the third grade and the sixth grade to see
whether there was any increase in the achievement level?
A Yes. In comparing sixth grade children or in
measuring the achievement of sixth grade children, we found
that for this group of children—
Q Measurirg them with whom?
A Measuring them against the average of Negro
children in the school system.
Q In Negro schools?
A All Negro children, yes, and most of them would be
in Negro schools.
Q All right.
A We found that those who began their schooling in
the predominantly white schools made somewhat higher grades
than those who transferred in. We found - the finding which
I mentioned earlier about improvement in arithmetic computa
tion. Otherwise we found that the results were about the
same as would have been expected had they remained in Negro
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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s c h o o ls .
Q Did you have a Negro valedictorian at one of the
predominantly white senior high schools?
A I believe we did have. We don't have valedictoriar
and aalutatorian; we have about eliminated those positions
and have come up with what would be referred to as honor
graduates, though they are listed in order of rank, and I
believe that a Negro girl did— was the highest honor
graduate in one high school last year, possibly last year.
Q I show you a copy of Defendants' Exhibit 23, page
317, dealing with Atkins Senior High School. I think you
testified that that was the only senior high school that
qualified unequivocally by the Southern Association of
Secondary Schools and Colleges?
A That's correct.
Q Would you look at that paragraph and tell the
Court what that paragraph says about Atkins High School?
A The paragraph has to do with the plant. Do you
want me to read it?
0 Yes.
A "The total school plant is in poor condition. It
has the general appearance of neglect. The plant should be
considered for abandonment for the following reasons: (1)
The site is too small for a high school, 40 to 50 acres
needed. (2) The neighborhood environment surrounding the
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school is totally unsatisfactory. (3) The library is too
small; is not functional. (4) Guidance facilities are
inadequate. (5) Specialized areas are inadequate for a
large high school program. (6) Facilities are not adapt
able to a contemporary program of large group, small group
and individual study. (7) Plant not air conditioned.
(8) Cost of modernizing would exceed value of returns for
service over a period of years. The inadequacies are too
extensive to justify the expense and effort of trying to
correct them.”
Q Do you have that same opinion of Atkins High
School?
A I would say that I have generally that opinion of
Atkins High School.
Q You have a Title II program in Winston-Salem also?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe that provides funds for library books?
A And other instructional material.
Q I think that all schools in the system qualify for
Title II funds?
A All schools do qualify. There is some kind of a
relative need formula that applies to that, Mr. Chambers,
which determines the extent of participation.
Q When did you start Title II?
A My recollection is that we started that in 1966.
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I am sure we started it the first year it was available.
Q You are familiar with the ratio of library books
per student in the school system?
A Yes, I'm familiar with that.
Q Did you, Mr. Sarbaugh, attempt to use those funds
to equalize the library books per pupil?
A We applied the relative need index as outlined.
Q Do you know why some of the schools in the system
today have less books per pupil than other schools?
A Yes, sir. I believe I testified to what I felt
were the two most substantial reasons.
Q Was it possible for you to use Title II funds to
equalize the books per pupils?
A It may have been possible for us to use Title II
funds on some different proportion of relative need than we
used. We chose to submit the needs of every school anti
allow them to be allocated whatever amount of money their
relative need called for.
Q Have you seen Exhibit 5 attached to the Board's
answers to interrogatories?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that shows the books per pupil in each of the
schools in the system?
A It does.
THE COURT: Are you saying, Dr. Sarbaugh, that you
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s u b m i t t e d t h e n e e d o f e a c h s c h o o l a n d then whoever
r u l e s o n T i t l e I I f u n d s m ade t h e a l l o c a t i o n ?
THE W ITNESS: Y e s , s i r .
THE COURT: I s t h a t t h e p o i n t ?
Q (B y H r . C h a m b e r s ) D id t h e y m ake t h e a l l o c a t i o n
p e r s c h o o l o r d i d t h e y m ake a lu m p sum f o r t h e s c h o o l
s y s t e m ?
A T h e a l l o c a t i o n s w e r e m a d e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , o n
a p e r - s c h o o l — b a s e d u p o n t h e s c h o o l ' s r e l a t i v e n e e d .
Q Was t h a t d o n e b y t h e S t a t e D e p a r t n e n t o f P u b l i c
I n s t r u c t i o n ?
A I t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e m e c h a n ic s o f that
i s d o n e b y t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l i c I n s t r u c t i o n , b u t
t h a t t h e f o r m u l a s a r e e s t a b l i s h e d u n d e r T i t l e I I out o f the
U . S . O f f i c e o f E d u c a t i o n .
Q And d i d y o u s u b m it t h e a p p l i c a t i o n t o Raleigh?
A Y e s .
Q To t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t ?
A Y e s .
Q I t ' s y o u r o p i n i o n t h a t y o u got back a per-school
a l l o t m e n t r a t h e r t h a n a lu m p sum a l l o t m e n t for distribution
a s t h e l o c a l B o a r d sa w f i t ?
A T h a t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
Q Do y o u h a v e i n y o u r o f f i c e a r e c o r d , a receipt of
t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n ?
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A Yes, we would have all the records of that, and
our coordinator of instructional materials is the person
who directly administers that program. She would be more
competent to answer questions on that than I. But that is
my recollection.
Q What is that person's name?
A Mrs. Medora Hill, M-e-d-o-r-a Hill.
Q You testified about administrative difficulties
as you saw it in integrating the schools in the. system. Do
you have anything to do with establishing school attendance
areas?
A No, sir.
Q Have you worked on a committee that established
attendance areas for schools?
A I have worked within our administrator’s staff
on possible changes in attendance area lines, on new
construction, in a limited way. But my area is primarily
instruction.
Q Are you familiar with the racial composition of
the city and county, generally familiar with where the
Negroes reside and where the whites reside?
A I am certainly generally aware of that.
Q Did you see the plaintiffs’ exhibits describing
where the Negroes and whites are residing in the city?
A I can’t recall, Mr. Chambers. Is that one of the
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-io e
exhibits that you introduced several weeks ago?
THE COURT: Hr. Sink or Mr. Leggett, maybe you
can help there with the exhibit.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) According to Mr. Charles Green
who testified here earlier, this is the way he found Negroes
and whites to be residing, according to census tracts of the
city.
A Yes.
Q According to him, the largest concentration of
Negroes in the city were in cerses tracts 3, A, 5, 6, 7 and
16.
A Yes.
0 In your opinion is that where the largest number
of Negroes reside in the city?
A I'm not totally familiar with those census tracts,
but from my general knowledge of the community in looking
at that map, that would appear to me to be where the largest
number do live.
Q He also shows in census tract 2 that 80 to 90
percent of the Negroes reside— the residents in the census
tract are Negroes. Would that be true in your opinion?
A May I?
THE COURT: Oh, yes.
A I would say that would be true, yes, sir.
Q He also says that in census tract 8 and 2, that
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the residents in that area would be approximately 60 to 70
percent Negro?
A Eight and—
Q Two and eight.
A I would think that that would be correct.
Q He says that in census tract 19, that the resi
dents in that area would be approximately 50 to 59 percent
Negro?
A X m not as certain of that area. I can't say
about that.
0 Well, according to him, the other census tracts
of course in the county would run from 0 to 49 percent
Negro. This area here would be 0 to 10, and this area here
would be 10 to 20?
A I would say that that is generally an accurate
reflection.
Q Now, this Exhibit 29 shows the combined elementary,
Junior high and senior high school attendance areas?
A Yes.
Q Did you know that in the establishment of those
boundary lines, you would have only Negroes attending schools
in these areas?
MR. WOMBLE: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled, if he understands the
question; if he doesn't, you may rephrase it.
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A Are you asking if I knew at the time those boundary
lines were drawn that Negro children make up the school
population?
Q Yes.
A I will have to say that I haven’t been involved to
any extent in either the original makeup or modification of
any of those lines. They were part of the Winston-Salem
city unit, as I understand it; they existed before 1963.
Q Were they modified subsequent to that? I thought
there was a school attendance area in 1965, and these as I
recall were 1966?
A I don’t recall any modification in which I was
involved in 1965.
Q What about April of 1966?
A I just don't recall.
Q Well, if Negroes concentrated in this area from
90 to 100 percent, the attendance line enclosing those areas
would only give you Negro students?
A It certainly would.
0 And if no Negroes are involved out in this area,
or very few, the student population of those schools would
be principally white, wouldn't they?
A That would be true.
Q Are you familiar with school pairing?
A Yes, I'm familiar with that; I'm familiar with
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t h a t c o n c e p t.
Q Are you familiar with clustering of schools?
A The term "clustering" is new to me in terms of
pupil assignment. We have used the term of "cluster" in a
teaching context rather than pupil assignment, but I have
recently heard that term used.
Q Would you tell the Court what you understand
"pairing" to mean?
A As I understand "pairing", it would be identifying
two or more schools and two or more school attendance areas
and oombining them into one attendance area, and providing
a portion of the instruction at one school for all of the
students in that area and a portion of the instruction at
the other.
Q Like you take two elementary schools previously
served grades 1 through 6, and divide one up to 1 to 3 and
the other 4 to 6?
A That's right, yes.
Q That’s similar to, or is it about the same thing
as the Princeton Plan?
A That’s the way I, understand it, yes.
Q What do you mean by "clustering of schools"?
A I Judge that would mean more than two schools
somewhat following this same context, where you might take
several schools, a group of schools in a larger geographic
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areap and either reassign children so that maybe one school
was the first grade school, and another one was the second
grade school. That would possibly be one explanation of it.
0 Have you also heard of an organization school and
a 4-4-4 plan?
A Yes.
Q Would you explain that for the Court?
A As I understand the 4-4-4, that would be a school
where children attended grades 1, 2, 3, and 4 in one school,
grades 5, 6, 7 and 8 at another school, and grades 9, 10, 11
and 12 at another.
Q Do you know of any school systems that are present}
using that kind of school system?
A I know that there are some that are moving in that
direction. I'm not positive that I can name one that I know
is, but it is a popular - a rather popular idea, particularly
the middle four.
Q In fact, that's the way they refer to it, the
middle grade?
A It's referred to as a middle school. It may have
four grades; it may have three.
Q Mr. Sarbaugh, isn't it possible under some kind of
arrangement, either in pairing, clustering, or reorganization
of the schools, to integrate all of the schools in this
school system?
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MR. WOMBLE, Object.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I will sustain it,
using the term "integrate-. You can us. another word.
I think that would be "mix the races," or something.
As to what "integrate" means, that seem, to be highly
debatable. Sustained in that form, ask him in another
form.
° (By Mr. Chambers) In your opinion, Mr. Sarbaugh,
is it possible through one of the arrangements that we have
mentioned, or a combination of others, to mix students
racially in each of the schools in this school system?
A It certainly is possible.
Q Now, what difficulties do you see it would have
if you did that?
A It would be— the major difficulties would be in
designing any kind of logical orderly assignment pattern
and maintaining it. It would mean essentially the abandon
ment of the idea of school attendance and residents being
•elated. It would appear to me to be in many way, substsm-
ilally more expensive.
Q Why would it be more expensive?
A Well, just from the point of view of movement of
hildren. It would be more expensive in terms of trsnsport-
ng them. If children attend schools based on their reslden,
men the presumption is that many of them live close to the
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school they attend.
a Would the consolidation of schools also reduce
the expenses that you presently have?
A Would the consolidation of schools?
Q Yes.
A Consolidation of schools would reduce some
expenses. We have not found actually - I believe we have
found many major savings in consolidation of schools because
there are some savings and there are some added costs on
the other side.
THE COURT! 1 know what the word "consolidation"
means, but in an educator's term - when we talk about
"pairing" and "clustering" and "4-4-4", how does
"consolidation" differ? Isn't that a combination of
several? What is that?
A It would be, Your Honor, the closing of one school
and sending the children from that school to another, or
auilding a new school and abandoning the old ones, ---- lt
lating existing schools and they no longer serve their
jrevious purpose.
THE COURT: There has been some testimony about a
school in the southwest that serves some group in the
southwest quadrant, and on. in the northeast. Is that
carrying out that kind of plan? Is that the idea?
A The testimony about a new high school might serv<
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" -ht be carrying out that idea. There was a period in the
history in this county of our educational development when
there was a great deal of consolidation of small high
schools, particularly in the Forsyth County unit. When I
came here, for example, there were about fourteen high
schools, all of them with student bodies of 150 to 200, and
as the years went by we built new high schools and consoli
dated several of those small ones by closing their high
school program and transferring it to this new and larger
consolidated high school.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't it true, Mr. Sarbaugh,
that the State Board of Education has recommended that the
schools consolidate in order to eliminate the expenses of
operating small separate schools?
A It is true.
0 That was one of the factors behind the consolida
tion of the county and city school units, wasn't it?
A No, sir. Now, you’re talking about a different
term. That is a merger, and that is not the same thing.
0 Even a merger, sir, didn’t that reduce the
expenses? Wasn't that one of the objectives of it?
A Not in this county, Mr. Chambers. We had two
pretty large units already. The State Board of Education's
interest in merging administrative units is in those counties
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whers there are four or five separate administrative units,
as there is in my home county, for example, Robinson County.
There are four or five separate administrative unit.! each
one has its own superintendent and administrative structure.
And the State Board's Interest is in the merger of those
small units.
Q Is it also in the consolidation of smaller high
schools?
A It certainly is.
q Now, you were listing some of the problems with
mixing students in the school system, and you stopped at
what you thought would be added expenses to the school
system. Do you know of any other problems that you might
have, carrying out a plan that would mix students in each
school system?
A There would be adjustment problems, to be sure,
and there would be some administrative difficulties involved^
but I would say that the major concerns, the major problems
would be the ones that I have listed.
Q The fact is, Mr. Sarbaugh, it can be done, can it
not?
A I don't think there's any question about the fact
that it can be done.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: It's about lunchtime. Will you people-
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a m o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t s * *
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I keep forgetting about you, Mr. Vanore1';'1
MR. VANORE: We do have some questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I should have let you ask before he
was examined by counsel for plaintiffs, but I overlooked
it. Would you all like to have him for redirect, Mr.
Garrou?
MR. GARROU: We have a few questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Well, you come down, Dr.
Sarbaugh. We will take our lunch recess, and take a
recess until 2:00 o'clock.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock p.m.)
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O f p i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Mr. Sarbaugh, would you come back to
the stand, please? Before you get underway again, Mr.
Garrou, let’s hear from the State of North Carolina and
give the county an opportunity to examine. Either one of
you go, as you all see fit.
MR. VANORE: Is Mr. Chambers through now, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: He had announced he was, but do you
have other questions that you'd like to ask him now, Mr.
Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: No, Your Honor, not at this time.
THE COURT: All right.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Sarbaugh, I believe you
testified that there are certain courses of study that are
required to be taught at each of the schools, required by
the State Board of Education?
A There are some required courses, yes.
Q Who decides whether additional courses will be
taught and in which schools the additional courses will be
taught?
A The local Board of Education.
Q The local Board of Education. Now, twice in this
examination Mr. Chambers referred to federal and state rules
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for qualifying students for Title I ESEA funds. Do you
know who has the responsibility for determining eligibility
for Title I ESEA funds?
A That eligibility would be a part of the federal
guidelines.
G Part of the federal guidelines. In other words,
do I understand you to say that there are no state rules or
guidelines as far as those funds are concerned?
A Yes, that would be correct.
Q I believe also you testified that the state allo
cates funds for vocational teachers; did you not testify to
that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who determines In which schools the vocational
teacher will teach?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Now, in answer to one of Mr. Chambers’ questions
as to whether or not there were ways to cause more racial
mixing, I believe you stated that there would be some
problem presented as far as student assignment patterns?
I ’m not sure if I understood you correctly. Was the major
problem that you stated would be presented to the Board
|would be student assignment patterns? Is that correct?
A As I recall, I said that that would be one of the
|major problems, yes.
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PHONE: 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q Who has the responsibility of determining student
assignment patterns, Mr. Sarbaugh?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Who has the responsibility to determine whether
or not a school will be paired with another school or
consolidated in your school administrative unit?
A Well, all decisions of that kind would be made by
the local Board of Education.
Q I believe in answering one of Mr. Chambers’
questions concerning Title II ESEA funds which, I believe,
deal with library funds, you stated that the funds come
from the State Department, and when they come from the
State Department they are designated as to a particular
school to which these funds will be used at. Have you
reconsidered your answer?
A I have checked and determined that my answer was
in error, and that the funds from the state are allocated
to the local unit on a per pupil basis, and that the distri
bution of those funds on relative need is determined by the
local administrative unit.
Q By the local administrative unit alone?
A Alone, yes.
Q Now, of course these state funds are actually
federal funds, which are transmitted from the federal level
to the local level by the State Board of Education?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A That's correct.
Q But they are actually federal funds?
A They are federal funds.
Q In allocating these federal funds, is it your
understanding that the State Department of Public Instruction
does and must follow the federal guidelines?
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to that, Your Honor. I
don't see how Mr. Sarbaugh could testify about that.
MR. VANORE: I asked him if it was his under
standing.
MR. CHAMBERS: That was a conclusion of lav.
THE COURT: That would be a conclusion of law.
Sustained.
MR. VANORE: I don't think I have any further
questions.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: I haveno questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Garrou.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Garrou) Mr. Sarbaugh, in response to
questions on cross examination, I asked you to compare the
projected racial composition of the schools with Defendants'
Exhibit 26 showing the actual composition as of December 19,
1969. You testified, I believe, that all of the projected
schools with white only enrollment ended up that way, did
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you not?
Q I show these two exhibits to you now and ask you
to compare the projectedenrollment of Bolton with the
actual enrollment and see if there is a discrepancy.
A There is a discrepancy. The projected enrollment
is 540 white and no Negro. The actual enrollment is 520
white and 1 Negro.
Q I ask you to look at the figures for Sherwood
Forest and tell the Court whether there is any discrepancy.
A There is a discrepancy there also. Do you want
me to give it?
Q Yes, please give It.
A The projected figure was 848 white and no Negro.
The actual figure as of December 19 was 822 white and 1
Negro.
Q Now, I ask you to look at South Fork Elementary
School and to compare those figures.
A The projected figure was 732 white and no Negro;
the actual figure on December 19 was 691 white and 2 Negro.
Q Now, I ask you to look at Kennedy Junior High
and compare those figures.
A The projected figure is 1,058 Negro and no white;
the actual figure is 1,042 Negro and 1 white.
Q Now, Mr. Sarbaugh, you testified in response to
A I b e l ie v e I d id .
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cross examination about the vocational education in the
high school, and you mentioned that agricultural programs
were given in some high schools that were predominantly
white. They were given in those schools and in none of the
high schools that are predominantly black. What's the
reason for that?
A There isn't any apparent indication of demand for
that program. There was a time when vocational agriculture
was offered at Carver High School - that was at the time
when that school served all of the Negro students in the
county - and a substantial number of young Negro men from
the rural areas were interested in such a program, there
fore it was a program worth continuing. When the Carver
district was modified and these students to a large extent
began attending the high schools in the areas in which they
lived, the need for this program seemed to diminish.
Q Mr. Sarbaugh, are you aware of the School Board
Plan to close Carver Senior High School and Anderson High
School? Are you aware of that plan?
A I'm aware of that, yes, sir.
Q What were the reasons for that proposal?
A There were two basic reasons for that proposal,
Mr. Garrou. The first was to close two small high schools
in which the student enrollment was not sufficient to pro
vide the broadest possible programs, and the second reason
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was to attempt to increase the extent of pupil desegregation
Q Now, was this proposal carried out?
A No, sir.
Q Why not?
A The funds with which to do the necessary con
struction to make way for the carrying out of this project
have not been made available to the Board through some legal
action pending against the Board.
Q I believe you also testified in response to cross
examination about the physical facilities at Atkins High
School?
A Yes, sir.
Q And your testimony was limited to the physical
facilities, is that correct?
A I believe I read a statement from the Peabody
Report. Is that what you have reference to?
Q Yes.
A Yes, it dealt with physical plant.
Q Now, when a school is accredited, does the
accreditation agency take into account the physical facilitie
A Yes, that's one of the criteria.
Q I believe you also testified as to the effect of
Title II of ESEA on the library books in the various schools
did you not?
A I did.
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Q Have you had occasion to compare the per capita
number of library books in schools attended by predominantly
black students with a per capita number of library books in
predominantly white schools?
A I have occasion annually to examine the per
capita library book figures in all schools in arriving at
some basis for making special allotments. So I have
reviewed allocations from all schools of the per capita
numbers from all schools.
Q Have you detected any pattern in relation to the
racial makeup of the schools as compared to the number of
library books in such schools?
A I don't believe that there is any pattern with
respect to the racial makeup, Mr. Garrou. If there is a
pattern, it would be in relation to the age of the school.
The newer the school, the smaller its library collection
per pupil.
MR. GARROU! That’s all, Your Honor.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have Just one or two questions,
Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Other than the one Negro at
Bolton, and the one Negro at Sherwood Forest, the two Negroes|
at South Fork and the one white student at Kennedy Junior
High School, do you know of any other change from the actual
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figures shown in that projection and the interrogatories?
A 1 do not, except the actual numbers are different,
but with respect to racial makeup, I do not know of any
other.
I think your answer on cross examination previously
that there wasn't any substantial change between the figures
shown on the projected figures and the answers to interro
gatories and the figures you actually showed in your
answers in your exhibit. Is that correct?
A I suspect that was correct.
Q Would you consider a school with 520 whites and
1 Negro to be integrated?
MR. WGMBLE: Object.
THE COURT; Sustained. That's a question of law
and it's a matter of debate as to whether ve are
integrated or not, it seems.
o (By Mr. Chambers) You said that you were familiar
'lth the plan of the School Board to close Carver and
diderson Senior High Schools?
A Yes.
Q This was adopted back in 1967 or '60?
A Yes, I think that's about right. It seems to me
67 possibly.
Q Do you know of any proposal of the Board to mix
tudents in previously all black schools?
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A No, air.
Q Isn’t it true that certainly since the merger
what integration has taken place has been principally
Negroes moving to previously all white schools?
A With the exception of these scattered cases, that
would be correct.
Q Would some of the Negro schools in the system in
your opinion be satisfactory for use if you mix students in
those schools in the system?
THE COURT: I didn’t understand that question.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Are you familiar with the
study made of this school system in 1964 by the State
Department of Public Instruction?
A I'm generally familiar with it.
Q I think that'8 included in your answers to
interrogatories that you filed in this case. In that study,
the State Department made certain recommendations about the
use of the the existing facilities of the school, did it
not?
A It did.
Q Some were recommended to be continued for long
range use and some were recommended to be discontinued, is
that correct?
A Yes, and some had been recommended for short range
ise and partial use, and so on.
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Q And that study was supplemented by the Peabody
Committee?
A Yes, a follow-up study by that group, with an
Intervening study by our own staff.
Q Oh, you have the study, too?
A Not as exhaustive as either of those.
Q Was it written?
A I believe so.
Q Are you generally familiar with the recommenda
tions of the State Board with respect to the long range,
short range, etcetera, use of schools in the system?
A I am not in a position to testify to those, I
don’t feel, very completely, Mr. Chambers. That is an area
of our operation - it is somewhat removed from my jurisdic
tion. I am familiar with this study; I did read it at the
time; I don't feel too competent to answer that.
MR. CHAMBERS: Okay; I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further of Mr.
Sarbaugh? All right. Thank you; you may come down,
sir.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Leo Morgan.
WHEREUPON,
LEO MORGAN
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was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Please state your name.
A Leo Morgan.
0 What is your age and where do you live?
A Fifty years of age; I live at 718 Westview Drive,
Winston-Salem.
Q What is your work, Mr. Morgan?
A Assistant superintendent of schools in charge of
business affairs.
Q For the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Systeml
A Right.
Q How long have you been with the local school
system?
A Seventeen years.
Q And what is your background of experience with
the system? What jobs have you had?
A I began here as a teacher in the eighth grade at
Gray High School, assistant principal at Whitaker, assistant
principal at Hanes High School, principal of Hanes Junior
High School, principal of Dalton Junior High School, and
then in '62 assistant superintendent of the city schools.
Q And you have been with the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education since consolidation in 1963?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Now, in your particular work as assistant superin
tendent, what is your area of responsibility?
A Business affairs, which would include new construe-
tion, maintenance, and a portion of transportation.
G How many school buildings are there in the
system that are now in use and which were built prior to
1930?
A Twenty-two.
Q Of these twenty-two buildings, how many of them
are used for schools where the student body is predominantly
white?
A There are seventeen of the twenty-two which are
predominantly white.
Q And how many are schools where the student enroll
ment is predominantly black?
A Five of the schools would be predominantly black.
Q Still speaking with reference to the older schools
in the system, what, if any, additions have there been
built? In other words, are most of these in their original
state, or have all of them or most of them had some addition
constructed to them over the years?
A The records show that all of them have had - all
of the twenty-two schools built prior to 1930 have had
additions, one or more.
Q What is the condition of the schools with respect
■3fw
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to maintenance?
A You’re talking about this group of schools?
Q Yes.
A Well, I think they have been kept in a good state
of maintenance.
Q Now, this morning, in connection with the examina
tion of Mr. Sarbaugh, a statement was requested to be read
and was read from the Peabody Report on page 317, which
included a statement that Atkins High School has the general
appearance of neglect. Are you personally familiar with
the appearance and condition of Atkins High School?
A I am.
Q What in your opinion is the appearance and condi
tion of Atkins High School?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't want to be
labor it, but I would just like to raise a question
about the right of a party to cross examine - to
challenge a document the party has introduced himself.
As I recall, the local Board of Education introduced
this document, this Exhibit 23, and whether the testi
mony now is going to challenge what is already
presented as its evidence, I think would be objection- .
able.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection in the form
submitted as to what is his opinion about it. I will
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let him tell, Mr. Womble - I will let him tell about
it, what the appearance is.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What is the appearance and
condition of Atkins High School, Mr. Morgan?
A I would say the appearance and condition is
relatively good, in relatively good condition.
Q I show you a photograph album and ask you if you
know what this album is, what it contains?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it?
A It contains photographs of the exterior of all of
the school buildings and some surrounding snapshots.
Q In the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County System?
Yes, sir.
When were these pictures taken?
During the last month.
In what order are the photographs placed in the
A
Q
A
Q
album?
A The elementary schools first in alphabetical
order, and then the Junior high schools in alphabetical
order, and senior high schools in alphabetical order.
Q And with respect to each school, what is the order
in which the photographs appear?
A We have two shots of the exterior and then two
photographs of the surrounding area.
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Q X call your attention to the photographs narked
Atkins Senior” and ask you if those are fair representa
tions - if those two pictures of the exterior of the school
are fair representations of the exterior appearance of
Atkins Senior High School?
A I would say they are fair representations of the
exterior of Atkins High School.
Q This has been marked Defendants' Exhibit 36 - that
is this photograph album. Are you familiar with all of the
pictures in the album?
(The item, above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 36
for identification.)
A
album.
Q
A
I didn’t take them all; I've looked through the
Have you looked carefully at all of the pictures?
I don't believe that I looked carefully.
MR. CHAMBERS: If Mr. Vomble will so state that
those are the schools in the system, I will so stipu
late.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. WOMBLE: We offer into evidence Defendants'
Exhibit 36, showing all of the schools in the school
system with photographs following each of the .pictures
of the schools to show something of the surrounding
territory.
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THE COURT: A l l r i g h t . Received into the evidence
is Defendants' Exhibit 36.
(The item above referred to, here
tofore marked Defendants' Exhibit
No. 36 for identification, was received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Just bring it and show the Court the
pictures of Atkins, the bottom of that page and the
top of the next. I believe you want to see this? If
you will hand this to Mr. Chambers—
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, when was Brown
Elementary School built?
A The original construction was in 1914, an eight-
classroom building.
Q And what additions, if any, have been added to
that building since that time?
A There was a seven-classroom addition to Brown
Elementary in 1939, three classrooms and a combination
cafeteria-auditorium in 1955, and a ten-classroom addition
in I960.
Q I show you a photograph in Defendants' Exhibit 36
that states— it's a picture of Brown Elementary. Would
you please state what view of Brown Elementary that is?
A That would be the southwest corner.
Q And please state what you see there in that photo
graph as it relates to any additions to the building.
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THE COURT: Put your finger on the picture you*re
talking about.
THE WITNESS: This picture. The building, here is
the ten-room addition.
THE COURT: In the middle of the photograph?
THE WITNESS: That's the latest addition, yes,
the newest portion of the building. In the background
you see a two-story portion; the front portion is part
of the three-room addition, the cafeteria and auditorluii
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, the next photograph of Brown
is a photograph showing what view of the building?
A This picture was made from the northwest corner.
It shows the auditorium-cafeteria combination and the three
newest classrooms, which would be nearest Highland Avenue,
and in the background is the oldest portion of the building.
Q What are the three following photographs immediate!
following the second photograph of Brown Elementary?
A The third picture is a portion of the single
family dwellings located north of the school. The fourth
picture represents multi-family dwellings, apartments, on
the south side of the school. And there is a fifth picture
which shows a single-family dwelling on Highland Avenue
north of the school.
Q What is the condition of Brown Elementary School?
A Well, I would say in general the building is in a
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good state of repair; however, I think the early construction
should be phased out.
Q Would it be practical to phase out the oldest
part of the building and continue to use the never parts
of the building as an elementary school?
A The newest portion, the ten-room latest addition
of I960, is separated by a covered walk from the remainder
of the building; that could be used. There are other parts
of the building, the other additions were tied on to the
original construction and it would be difficult to tear
that portion down and continue using the other; however,
it could be done.
Q What is the size of the site on which this school
is located?
A The site contains six acres.
Q What kind of area is this in? Is it in a sparsely
developed area, or is it a centrally located area within
the community, or where is it?
A It is centrally located in the attendance area.
Q Is there any playground area with this school?
A Yes, we have playground area to the east of the
school and to the west of the school.
Q What are the projected plans for the continuation
or discontinuation of the use of this school at the present
time?
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MR. CHAMBERS! I raise an objection to that. I
could reserve it for cross examination, but I -hVHnir for
the record we should point out whether it's the plan
of the School Board or what. There are three documents
now in evidence that pertain to projected use of the
school.
THE COURT: I will sustain it. Be more specific,
Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What are the School Board's
present plans for the continued use of the school?
A The School Board has no plans in the six-year
capital program. Brown was not a part of any construction
in that program.
Q Is there any plan to eliminate the school, to do
away with it?
A The School Board has made no commitment to do
away with the school.
Q Based upon your knowledge of the facility, is
there any reason from a physical standpoint - that is from
the standpoint of the physical facility - to close or to
ebandon that school, other than the older portion that you
have already testified about phasing out?
A No.
Q I now show you the photograph of the 14th Street
School. Would you please explain what the age and condition
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o£ that school is?
A The original construction of 14th Street Elemenl
School was 1922.
Q What, if any, additions have there been to that
school?
A The original construction contained eighteen
classrooms. In 1929 twenty additional classrooms were
constructed.
Q are the Soh°o1 Board's long range plans with
respect to the 14th Street School?
A The School Board has not made any long range plans
in connection with the 14th Street School.
Q Is there any proposal to expend- has the School
Board acted to expend any money toward the modernization of
that school?
A There are no plans; no plans have been made other
:han the general maintenance.
° What °ther schools in the system are most compar
able in age and condition to the 14th Street School?
A Well, in design and shape and size, I would say
hat the Kemersville Elementary School and the Walkertown
lementary School would be the two that would be comparable
ith the 14th Street Elementary School.
Q When were those two schools built?
A The Kernersville Elementary School was built in
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1926. The Walkertown Elementary School was built in 1924.
Q With reference to the North Elementary School,
what is the age and condition of that school?
A North Elementary, the original construction was
1923. There was an addition in 1952, and the latest addi
tion was 1967. The 1923 portion of the building is still
in use and is in a fair state. The *52 and '67 are in good
to excellent condition.
Q Do you know whether or not there is any plan or
any proposal to use North Elementary School in connection
with the Model Cities program?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. The question is do you
know.
A I do know that it would be a part of that program.
MR. WOMBLE: Examine him.
THE COURT: Just a minute. Let's get all the
defendants first.
MR. VANORE: I have no questions, Your Honor.
MR. LIGON: No questions.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers.
MR. CHAMBERS: I Just have a few, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, are you familiar
with this Peabody Report?
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Yes, sir.
Q Have you looked at the appraisals of the schools
by the Peabody Committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q In your opinion, do their appraisals of the
schools differ from yours?
A In general, I would agree with them.
Q Just as one example, North Elementary School -
would you look at page 297, the last paragraph there dealing
with North Elementary and read that to the Court?
A The last paragraph that deals with North Elementary
Q Yes, sir.
A "The building maintenance is inadequate. Custodial
service needs improvement, particularly in general and
toilet room cleaning. The load on this plant should be
reduced. The old building is in poor condition and obsolete.
It should be demolished and replaced with a new facility.”
Q Now, you are also familiar with the school survey
by the State Department of Public Instruction?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you look at page 76 of that and read the
general - the last general conclusion of the State Depart
ment?
A "This elementary school plant will need attention
within a very few number of years. It is not filled to
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capacity at the present time."
0 That’s in 1964?
A ’64.
Q So between *64 and '66 or *69, when the Peabody
Committee Report was made, he had a substantial increase
of the number of students attending that school?
A I don't know what the increase would be. There
was an addition, a six-room addition, in 1967.
Q But in ’64 it was under-used, you had an addition
to facilities in ’66, and in '69, according to the Peabody
Report, it was over utilized?
A That's the report, yes.
Q In the maintenance of the schools, do you prepare
a proposed budget for the School Board for upkeep of ground
area and shrubbery and planting, etcetera?
A Yes, sir, we prepare the budget.
Q Do you prepare it for each school?
A For each school.
Q When you are concerned with making additions to
existing facilities, do you prepare a budget for the School
Board?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when you have to make additional room and
use mobile units, is it your office that also recommends to
the School Board that a mobile unit should be placed at *»X"
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or "Y" school?
A It is not my office that makes the determination
where the mobile units would go.
Q Does your office get involved in that decision at
all?
A Somewhat, yes.
Q In what respect?
A The Department of Instruction informs us where
additional space is needed, and we might shift a mobile
unit - our department would shift a mobile unit from one
location to another, or take care of the bidding for new
mobile units.
Q Hasn't it happened quite a bit - in other words,
moving one mobile unit from one school to another school
because of increased population?
A This happens every summer.
Q Every summer? About how many units do you move
around like that?
A Well, it varies from year to year, depending on
what the needs are.
Q How many did you move in '69?
A We moved only two from one - I believe; I'm not
positive of this. I believe two from other schools, from
school to school, but a good many new ones were purchased.
Q How many new ones were purchased?
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A I don't recall offhand.
Q Do you have an approximate figure?
A About twenty-five.
Q And these mobile units cost about what?
A Six to eight thousand dollars, depending on the
type.
Q Six to eight thousand dollars?
A Six to eight thousand.
Q That's per mobile unit?
A Per mobile unit.
Q Do you have anything to do with capacities of
schools, the school's ability to accommodate students?
A Only so far as determining whether or not a class
room is standard or sub-standard.
Q What standard do you use? Is that the standard
that's suggested by the State Department of Public Instruc
tion?
A I don't know what their recommendations are size-
wise. We use anything below 625 square feet as substandard.
Q Isn't it true that when you are getting ready to
build a school building, you have to submit your proposal —
that's the architectural drawings - to the State Department?
A Yes, sir, all the plans have to be approved by
the Division of School Planning.
Q They have to approve it as to size and lighting
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conditions and windows, etcetera?
A Correct.
Q When you add a mobile unit to a school facility,
you increase the capacity of the school to accommodate the
students at that particular school?
A In practicality, yes, but in the capacity that we
published, the answer is no. It does not increase its
capacity.
° But ln actual effect, one mobile unit might add
thirty more additional spaces for students?
A We use twenty-five as the figure.
Q Now, when you add a mobile unit to a white school,
you increase the capacity of that school then to accommodate
white students at that school?
A Well, I say in practicality, you increase the
capacity of the school by twenty-five.
Q The same thing will be true if you add it to a
Negro school?
A Sure.
a Have you seen Exhibit 5 attached to the defendants'!
answers to interrogatories in this case?
A I have.
Q Did you have something to do with the preparation
of that document showing the number of mobile units at each
school?
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A I d id .
Q Did you have something to do with the column
dealing with the pupil capacity of the school?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know who made that determination?
A I believe Mr. Smith, the associate superintendent
of schools, made that.
Q When you made these additions to North Elementary
that you were talking about and to Brown, did you not know
that those additions would accommodate or that they would
be populated only by Negro students?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A At Brown, I was not in this position when the
addition was made, so I don’t believe I could give an
answer to that. At North Elementary, the six classrooms
were built when I was serving in this capacity. I did not
know for sure that this would serve only black students.
Q You didn't know of any plan by the Board at that
time to integrate— well, to mix students in the school
system at that time?
A I did not know of any plan at that time.
Q Have you made additions to the existing white
schools in the system, too?
A Yes.
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Q I think you have even constructed some white
schools new since 1954?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you didn't know of any plan at that time of
the Board to mix students racially in those schools at that
time, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have anything to do with the purchase of
land for schools when you are getting ready to build a new
school?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is the Board's standard now for the number of
acres for an elementary school, recommended acreage?
A For an elementary school with enrollment of eight
hundred, ten acres.
Q What about a junior high school?
A Thirty, I guess, for eight hundred.
Q What about a senior high school?
A Forty acres for eight hundred, and one acre for
each one hundred students above eight hundred, and the same
thing would apply to elementary and junior high, above eight
hundred an acre for each additional one hundred students.
This is a general guide.
Q And the new high school projected where you plan
to close Carver Senior High School and Anderson Senior High
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School, do you know how many acres of land you have purchased
for that school?
A Would you repeat the question; I'm sorry.
Q It's my understanding that you propose to build a
new high school in the northeastern part of the county to
accommodate high school students from Carver and Anderson?
A I*m not familiar with that plan.
Q I show you this document attached to the Board’s
answers to interrogatories, Exhibit 12, and ask you if that
is a plan for the projected use of money by the School
Board under the bond issue?
A It was, yes.
Q Has the Board changed that?
A The present Board has not officially adopted this
plan as approved by the previous Board.
Q You mean the present Board of Education has not
approved of the use of the moneys under the bond issue?
A No. The present Board has not to my knowledge.
Q There was some testimony a moment ago about the
Board not being able to carry out its proposal because of
these pending lawsuits. Is it your testimony that the Board
really doesn't have a plan, the present Board?
A The present Board was in the process of reviewing
this plan.
Q It hasn't approved it yet?
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A Not to my knowledge.
Q Do you have anything to do with the selection of
sites for schools?
A Yes, I do.
Q What are some of the factors that you consider
when you select a site?
A Well, in selecting a site, you are selecting a
site for a proposed school, and the need for the proposed
school would have to be created or felt before you would
start selecting a site. You wouldn’t select a site until
you had a need for a school. The need for a school would be
that some school is overcrowded or would need an additional
school to relieve the overcrowded conditions at some school.
Q Once determined that a school was overcrowded, and
you perhaps would need some additional facilities for class
rooms, what would you consider then in selecting a site?
A Well, accessibility, a road situation, the topo
graphy of the land, the soil conditions, how far it was from
the schools that it was to serve - those are some of the
general ideas.
Q So one thing you would consider would be the
students you anticipate being assigned to the particular
school?
A Yes.
Q Where they stay. Let’s suppose that you are in
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the circle here, census tracts 3, 4, 7 and 16, and you
wanted to combine these districts for one elementary school.
Would you try to select a school in the center of those
districts so that all students would be going approximately
the same distances to school?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
A I don't believe that_
THE COURT: Just a minute. Mr. Womble, he says
he has something to do with school selection.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir, he selects sites in areas
where he's instructed to select them by the Board. He
doesn't select the sites on his own. In other words.
It's a matter of Board determination as to where the
school is to be built, and then he seeks the site for
the area to be served. He doesn't make the selection
of the area to be served himself.
THE COURT: That is possibly true, but that isn't
what he's saying. I think you could maybe bring that
out by argument or otherwise, but that isn't what he
is saying. Overruled.
o (By Mr. Chambers) Would you try to select a
chool in the center of the area?
a Are you saying that you would have one elementary
ohool to serve that entire group or the entire area?
Q If that waa Part of the consideration, that you
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would have overcrowded schools I n t h a t a r e a a n d y o u w a n t e d
to build a school t o a c c o m m o d a te t h e s t u d e n t s i n t h e o v e r
crowded area. Now, w o u ld y o u t r y t o l o c a t e t h e s c h o o l i n
the center of t h e a r e a y o u were t r y i n g t o s e r v e ?
A Well, I t h i n k t h a t w e w o u ld l o o k a t t h a t - w e
would look a t i t f r o m t h a t s t a n d p o i n t . T h a t w o u ld b e o n e
consideration.
0 Prior t o t h e n ew Board t a k i n g o f f i c e , w h a t f a c t o r
did you consider in s e l e c t i n g t h e s i t e — w a s t h a t t h e E a s t
High School attendance a r e a ?
A I wasn't involved i n t h e E a s t H ig h S c h o o l ,
selection of that site.
Q Which h i g h s c h o o l w a s t o a c c o m m o d a te t h e s t u d e n t s
from Carver a n d A n d e r s o n H ig h S c h o o l s ?
A E a s t F o r s y t h H ig h S c h o o l .
Q Your t e s t i m o n y i s t h a t y o u w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d __
A You said Carver and A n d e r s o n ?
Q Yes, I did s a y C a r v e r a n d A n d e r s o n .
A Carver— E a s t w a s t o t a k e c a r e o f C a r v e r b u t n o t
Anderson. Parkland— the p l a n w a s f o r P a r k la n d t o t a k e c a r e
of Anderson High School.
Q Did y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e s e l e c t i o n
ol the site for the East,H ig h S c h o o l a t t e n d a n c e a r e a ?
A No, sir.
Q Did you h a v e a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h s e l e c t i n g t h e
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site for Parkland?
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A Yes, sir. I worked in conjunction with the
Planning Board and the School Board.
Q What factors you consider in selecting the
site for Parkland?
A Well, three or four sites were selected by the
Planning Board, the City-County Planning Board, and the
School Board reviewed all of these sites, bringing to bear
the topography, the general area serving the students, and
the School Board made the final decision on which site would
be selected.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, anything on redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, I believe you testi-
fied on cross examination that the previous School Board
had approved the capital improvement program for the
expenditure of bond funds that was shown to you by Mr.
Chambers. Is that right?
A Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q Now, when you say "previous School Board" as
contrasted with the present School Board, when was there a
change in the School Board?
A A change in the School Board— there was a c-
n the School Board in December of 1968.
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Q Was that after the Atkins suit and after the
Scott suit had been instituted?
A Yes, sir.
Q When was the bond election that approved the 24.8
million dollars of school bonds?
A That was in the spring of 1968.
Q And state what, if anything, you through your
office or the School Board through you and your office, had
done prior to the institution of the Atkins suit with
respect to employment of architects or anything else that
needed to be done toward the construction of additions at
EaSt m & h School» Walkertown or Parkland, or all three, to
accommodate the students who would be transferred from
Carver and Anderson.
A Architects were employed and preliminary drawings
were made by the architects.
Q For what project?
A For the East High addition, the Walkertown Junior
iigh addition, the Parkland High School addition.
THE COURT: All right. Now, for East High School
addition—
THE WITNESS: East High, Walkertown Junior High_
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: And Parkland High School addition.
THE COURT: All right.
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A
Q
A
Q
A
The preliminary plans_
(By Mr. Womble) Well, now— go ahead.
Excuse me.
Go ahead.
The preliminary plans are on file, and we were
instructed after the lawsuit to stop work on the plan.
Q Do you haPP0n t0 recall how much expense had
occurred at that time for architects’ fees?
A In the neighborhood of twelve thousand dollars.
Q You testi*ied also on cross examination that while
the placing of a mobile unit at a school would increase by
twenty-five the number of children who could physically be
accommodated at the school, you didn’t actually change the
rated capacity of the school. Are you familiar with the
rules and regulations of the School Board with respect to
the determination of whether or not a school has reached
capacity for the purpose of determining whether or not a
request for transfer by a student will be accepted?
A I am familiar, but I could not repeat it, Mr.
tfomble.
Q With respect to North Elementary, do you recall
/hether or not it had been necessary to place mobile units
it North Elementary to accommodate students residing within
;hat attendance area prior to the construction of the addi-
ion to North Elementary in 1967?
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A Yes, sir, we had mobile units located there. I
don't recall how many, four or five, I believe.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have one or two questions.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any questions?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.
MR. VANORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, do you recall
complaints of Negro parents in Winston-Salem about the
request to close Carver High School?
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A Yes, I do.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Were they not asking the School
Board to make Carver High School a high school rather than
close it?
A Mr. Chambers, I don't recall the nature of their
plan.
Q They did complain though, to your knowledge?
A Yes.
Q And that was before the bond issue was passed?
A I don't recall.
Q Wasn't it before this lawsuit was filed?
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1 A I believe that's right.
Q Wasn't it before you let contracts to the archi
tects to draw the addition at East?
A I believe that's right, yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have no further questions.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Morgan, what was Carver Schoo
built to serve? What kind of a school was it?
A it was a union school, grades 1 through 12, built
to serve—
Q All twelve grades?
A All twelve grades.
Where a school— well, are you familiar with thatQ
plan?
A
Q
Yes, sir.
Is that school built to serve all twelve grades
an adequate facility to serve as a high school facility
only?
A With major renovation, my answer would be affirma
tive.
Q
A
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A
0
As it now stands?
No, sir.
But it would take major renovation?
Yes, sir.
Do you recall whether or not there was objection
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Phone 765 0636
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to the closing of Paisley Senior High School by the parents
and students in the Paisley area?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, it's still operating, isn't it,
Paisley?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Is Paisley Senior High School
still operating?
A Paisley Senior High School is no longer operating.
THE COURT: I see Paisley, but that's a Junior
high, isn't it?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Paisley Senior High and Paisley
Junior High were formerly operating in the same building,
were they?
A In the same building, yes, sir.
Q As is the case with Carver and Anderson?
A Yes, sir.
Q Paisley Senior High was closed?
A Yes, it was closed.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. VANORE: I have one or two questions, please,
sir.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe you stated in response
to one of Mr. Chambers' questions that the State Superinten
dent's office approved architectural plans for school
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buildings as to structural soundness and functional sound
ness. Is that correct?
A Well, I said the Division of School Planning
approved all of our plans, preliminary and finals.
Q Who determines where a school building is going to
be located or relocated?
A The Board of Education makes that decision.
Q Who determines the size of the school building?
A The Board of Education makes that decision.
Q That's the local Board of Education?
A The local Board of Education.
MR. CHAMBERS: I Just have one question.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Morgan, in your opinion,
would the renovations that you indicate would be necessary
at Carver High School to accommodate Just a senior high
school cost more than the new additions you are making at
East?
A It would be about the same amount.
Q That's with the existing facilities you have
there to accommodate senior high school grades?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right, you may come down.
MR. WOMBLE: Come down.
(Witness excused.)
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THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have other witnesse:
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: How many more?
MR. WOMBLE: At the present time, I have two.
THE COURT: Let's take our afternoon recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to call Mr. Andrews to the
stand. Your Honor, before starting with this witness
and so I won't overlook them, I would like to offer
into evidence a publication of the Greater Winston-
Salem Chamber of Commerce entitled, "Pocket Library";
it has some statistical data about the area, and he
has no objection to it.
THE COURT: All right.
CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' Exhibit 37.
THE COURT: All right. Received into the record
is Defendants' Exhibit 37.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 37
for identification and was received
in evidence.)
MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to also offer into evidence
the interrogatory number 5 of the defendant Winston-
Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education, addressed to
the plaintiffs, and the plaintiffs' answer to that
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interrogatory. It relates to the identification of
the plaintiffs and concludes with the statement,
"Plaintiffs do not contend that they were denied
transfer to other schools because of race, but rather
that defendants' plan and method of assigning students
and teachers and total operation of the school system
perpetuates a racially segregated system."
CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' 38.
THE COURT: You're not marking that as an exhibit;
that's Just in the record as evidence, is that right?
There's nothing you're marking as an exhibit?
MR. WOMBLE: No, I did not.
THE COURT: It's not necessary.
MR. WOMBLE: Just so long as it's available to
the Court.
THE COURT: I was writing and I did not see what
you all were doing there.
MR. WOMBLE: I was really Just reading it into
the record. It would be interrogatory No. 5 and the
answer.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: That is not an exhibit then?
THE COURT: No. In some of your exhibits, is that
contained in any of the interrogatories? You have a
number of them. Is that in yours?
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MR. CHAMBERS: We did not introduce our interrO'
gatories as an exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,
WILLIAM H. ANDREWS
v/as duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Please state your name and age
and where you live.
A I'm William H. Andrews, 39} I live in Winston-
Salem, 3640 Spalding Drive.
Q Mr. Andrews, how long have you lived in Winston-
Salem?
A I've lived here all of my life except for college
years and a two-year tour in the Air Force. So that's six
years.
Q Where did you receive your public school education^
A I attended elementary school at Columbia Heights
Elementary School, and Atkins High School.
Q Is Columbia Heights an elementary school in the
City of Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it still in operation?
A It is not.
Q And you also attended Atkins High School in
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Winston-Salem?
2 A Right.
3 Q Where did you go to college?
4 A I went to Tuskegee Institute in Alabama.
5 Q
What degree did you obtain from there and when did
6 you graduate?
7 A I received a bachelor of science degree in 1952.
8 Q
And I believe you stated you were in the Air Force.
9 When were you in the Air Force and where did you serve?
sO A I also received a commission in the Air Force,
1! along with my degree. In August of '52 I went on active
12 duty.
13 Q Where did you serve?
14 A 1 served in Headquarters Command, Washington, D. C.
15 Q
And when were you released from active duty?
16 A August of '5^.
17 Q
What was your rank at the time of your release?
18 A I was a first lieutenant at the time of my release
19 Q
Have you continued in the inactive reserve since
20 then?
21 A
Well, I was in the active reserve and I was
22 oromoted to captain. I am not inactive.
23 Q
Mr. Andrews, where did you go when you left the
241 Air Force?
2!S A I c a n e back to Winston-Salem, back home, to go
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into business.
Q And with whom did you go into business and what
did you do?
A Several things, Mr. Wombla. I worked with a real
estate firm, Ernest Johnson Seagravesj I also worked with
my family firm in the real estate end.
Q And how long were you engaged in that?
A That, plus the operation of a service station,
for seven years.
Q What did you go into next? What line of work?
A I then went into Urban Renewal.
Q When was that?
A That was in 1961, September of '61.
Q And with whom were you employed at that time?
A I was employed by the Redevelopment Commission of
Winston-Salem.
Q Are you still with that organization?
A I am still with that organization.
Q Who was in the charge, who was the full-time
executive head of the Redevelopment Commission at that time?
A Mason E. Swearengin, Executive Director.
Q Did he hold any other position at the same time?
A Yes, sir.
Q What?
A He was also Executive Director of the Housing
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Authority for the City of Winston-Salem.
Q What was the physical relationship between the
Housing Authority office and the Redevelopment Commission
office?
A Well, they were two separate municipal corpora
tions with an executive head.
Q Where? Were they in the same building?
A In the same building, yes.
Q How large an operation was it at that time as
far as office space was concerned?
A In 1961, we had in the central office roughly
200 square feet of office space. It was rather small.
Q Was that both for the Redevelopment Commission
and the Housing Authority?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you employed to do by the Redevelopment
Commission in 1961?
A I was employed as a relocation officer.
0 What were the duties— were there other relocation
officers, or were you the only one?
A At that time I was the only relocation officer.
Q What were your duties as a relocation officer?
A They were to find suitable standard housing units
for displaced persons.
Q What do you mean by "displaced persons"?
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A These were persons displaced by the federal action
of urban renewal.
Q How long did you continue as relocation officer?
A Roughly seven or eight months, roughly seven
months.
Q And then what was your next—
A I was promoted to relocation supervisor.
Q And what was your duty as relocation supervisor?
A Again, to physically relocate displaced families,
and as a supervisor - having brought on another relocation
officer - I was to direct him.
Q In other words, you were in charge of all reloca
tion activities at the Redevelopment Commission office?
A That's correct.
Q How long did you continue as relocation super
visor?
A Two years. Again, that's approximately two years.
Q And then what was your next title?
A I was promoted to project manager.
Q And what was your duty as project manager?
A As project manager, my duties were the overall
responsibility of relocation, of property management, of
demolition. Well, those were the major areas as department
manager. Clearing land, getting it ready for sale, and this
type thing. But still the overall responsibility of the
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relocation.
Q Do you still have that title, or what is your
title now?
A I am administrative director for community services
for both agencies, the Housing Authority and the Redevelop
ment Commission.
Q And what are your duties as community services
director?
A I have the overall responsibility of relocation
and making sure that it relates to the physical as well as
the human standpoint, or we call it human renewal, as well
as the physical renewal. It ties in social-economic problems
in relocating people.
Q And you have this responsibility both for the
Redevelopment Commission and the Housing Authority?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it correct then to say from what you have
already testified that you have been in charge of relocation
for the Redevelopment Commission ever since you went with
the Commission in 1961?
A Yes, sir.
Q During that time, how many families or family units
I don't know what term you use - but how many individual or
family unit relocations have you had responsibility for?
A Sixteen hundred and fifteen since '61.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE COURT: Are you talking about families?
THE WITNESS: These are householders, displaced
householders. Some were individuals, families and
individuals.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What has been the race of the
people, the race or races of the people, who have had to
relocate as a result of these projects?
A All black.
Q And what has been the policy of your office and
the Redevelopment Commission with respect to the location
of the residences to which these people were relocated?
A We have the policy - is and has been to relocate
into standard housing throughout the community where such
standard housing could be found at rents or prices that the
displaces could afford to pay.
Q What sources of information have you regularly
used in finding available places for these people to move
into?
A We have used newspaper; we also have worked an
arrangement with leading real estate people in Winston-
Salem, and they supply us on a form that we give them
listings of their vacancies. This is done weekly.
Q What parts of the community have you found listings
available in connection with this work?
A The total community, Mr. Womble.
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Q Now, in undertaking to help these people find a
place to live, please state whether or not you have
attempted to direct or control the place in the commxnlty
to which they should move.
A Not at all. It would Just be possibly the
opposite. We have not attempted to direct; there is always
thechoice of the displacee. Pointedly, we make it a point
not to direct the displacee as to where he should or should
not move.
Q When you mentioned the figure 1615, was that the
number that you have actually relocated?
A Yes, sir.
Q To date?
A Right, sir.
Q Please state whether or not, or what success you
have had in finding residences for these people in the
places where they wanted to move into.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I for the record would
just like to object, and I can explain it later.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
A We have found relocation resources in the areas
that the families wished to move to. There are sufficient
resources avaiable in the city.
Q Do you have a breakdown as to how many of the
people - how many of these 1615 - moved into individual
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private homes; how many moved into public housing; how many
moved into apartments or rooms?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you give us that breakdown?
A Of the 1615, 177 purchased homes. 622 went into
rental units. 137 went into public housing, federally
aided public housing. 17 of them moved out of the city
altogether. 23 moved without us knowing where they moved to.
20 of them moved on their own into substandard housing. And
20 of them were evicted. 599 individual householders moved
into rental units.
THE COURT: 599 moved into rental units?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q (By Mr. Womble) So I believe you said 599 indi
viduals?
A Right.
THE COURT: Wait. I'm not understanding you.
622 rented homes and 599 moved into individual rental
units?
THE WITNESS: Right. There is a breakdown, sir,
of the families who moved into units and individuals.
We are required to keep separate records on individual
householders and families who receive additional
federal benefits.
THE COURT: I see. All right.
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MR. WOMBLE: Do you have a city map there?
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, I show you a map tha
was introduced into evidence by the plaintiffs attached to
their Exhibit 21. Are you familiar with that map?
A Yes, I am.
Q Was it prepared in your office?
A Right.
Q Now, would you please— do you know what these
colors and percentages mean?
A Yes. The percentages mean the number, the percent
of people who were displaced and the areas into which they
went.
Q Now, do you know how many people— do these per
centages add up to one hundred percent?
A They should, yes, sir.
Q Do you know how many people that involves?
A No, sir, I would have to break that down in the
office. We are still using the 1615.
Q 1615 families?
A Yes, sir.
0 From your testimony, do I understand correctly
that this would involve 177 purchases of homes?
A Yes, sir.
0 And 622 family units moving into rental facilities?
A Right, sir.
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Q 137 into public housing?
A Flight.
Q 20 persons who moved on their own to substandard
housing?
A Yes.
Q And some 599 individuals moving into rental units?
A Yes, sir.
Q So it is not 1615 persons purchasing homes?
A No, sir.
Q Now, the area where the 34 percent figure is
shown is bounded generally by what streets?
A By Northwest Boulevard on the south, 32nd Street
on the north, the new North-South Expressway on the east,
and Cherry Street on the west.
0 Cherry-Marshall?
A Cherry-Marshall on the west.
Q Now, at the time you began your work of relocating
persons, what was the residential characteristic of that
area from the standpoint of race?
A On the western portion, or near that Cherry Street
side, that area was all black. In the northern area, ^jain
down to Northwest Boulevard, the area was all white.
0 That would be the eastern half of the 34 percent
area?
A Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: And w h a t d o e s t h e p e r c e n t m ean ?
THE W ITNESS: T h e 34- p e r c e n t o f t h e p e o p l e who
h a v e b e e n r e l o c a t e d a r e i n t h i s a r e a , s i r .
THE COURT: O f t h e t o t a l n u m b er o f p e o p l e r e l o c a t e d
THE W ITNESS: T h e t o t a l n u m b er o f p e o p l e r e l o c a t e d .
THE COURT: A r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e w h o le 1 6 1 5 ?
THE W ITNESS: Y e s .
THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .
Q (B y M r. W om ble) W ere y o u a b l e t o sh o w p e o p l e
h o u s e s t h a t t h e y m ig h t p u r c h a s e i n t h a t a r e a - t h a t w a s t h e
e a s t e r n h a l f o f t h a t a r e a t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o a s b e i n g
f o r m e r l y w h i t e ?
A Y e s , w e d i d . We d i d s h o w p e o p l e , a n d t h e y o f
c o u r s e a c q u i r e d h o m e s i n t h a t a r e a .
Q Was t h e n u m b er o f p e o p l e w ho w e r e r e l o c a t e d i n t o
t h a t a r e a fr o m t h e s e r v i c e s — a s a r e s u l t o f t h e s e r v i c e s
o f y o u r o f f i c e , a l a r g e o r a s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e N e g r o
c i t i z e n s w ho m o v ed i n t o t h a t a r e a b e t w e e n 1 9 6 1 a n d 1 9 7 0 ?
A I t w a s a s m a l l p o r t i o n o f t h e p e r s o n s w ho m o v ed
i n t o t h a t a r e a w ho w e r e a s s i s t e d b y t h e R e d e v e lo p m e n t
C o m m is s io n . We w e r e t a l k i n g o f a n a r e a o f so m e 3 , 0 0 0 h o m e s .
Q N ow , t h e 3 7 p e r c e n t a r e a sh o w n o n t h e map g e n e r a l l y
i s b o u n d e d b y w h a t?
A G e n e r a l l y b o u n d e d b y U r b a n R e n e w a l o n t h e s o u t h ,
o r 1 1 t h S t r e e t o n t h e s o u t h , 2 5 t h S t r e e t o n t h e n o r t h , a n d
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the New Walkertown on the east, with this area that we just
discussed, or the North-South Expressway, on the west.
Q Now, what was the racial composition of that area
in 1961?
A The southern portion was all black. The northern
area was mixed.
Q W e l l , w a s a l l o f t h e n o r t h e r n a r e a m ix e d , o r w a s
so m e o f i t a l l w h i t e a t t h a t t im e ?
A Som e o f i t w a s a l l w h i t e a t t h a t t i m e .
Q Do you recall when the northern area, the northern
portion of that 37 percent area, when it first began to
change from white to black?
A As I recall, the area went into transition about
'56 or ’57, beginning in the southern portion, and then
going on to the north.
Q Now, did you relocate persons into areas or
portions of that 37 percent area where it was either a white
neighborhood or a mixed neighborhood?
A I d i d .
Q Would the persons who were relocated into the
37 percent area through the services of your office consti
tute a large or a small percentage of the total number of
Negro citizens who purchased homes in that area between
1961 and 1970?
A T h e y w o u ld r e p r e s e n t a s m a l l n u m b e r .
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1126
U Now, what are the general boundaries of the 23
percent area shown on this map?
A That is generally Wheeler and Claremont in this
smaller portion here.
Q That's at the south, is it?
A That's at the southwest corner. 1-40 on the south
area. Generally the Winston Lake area
ta On the east?
A On the east. Bismark, which is in the Carver
Hoad area, on the north. Bismark, Butterfield Drive, in
that area.
0
A
Q
A
Q
And on the west?
The Smith—Reynolds Airport.
And the 37 percent area that you Just testified?
Yes.
Now, what was the racial - strike that. To what
extent was this area developed for residential purposes in
1961?
A The southern portion, that which is close in to
the center city, was developed and was occupied by blacks.
The Carver Road area, Butterfield Drive, Cumberland Court,
and so forth, was undeveloped at that particular time.
However, the few streets that were developed were in black
areas.
Q And I believe the Reidsville Road is also a part
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A Right, sir. It's white, but it's a mixed area
now. it's not an area of transition? it's an area in which
whites and blacks live.
0 How many years has that been true to your knowledge>
A It has been in recent years that the City View
area -I would say in the past six years.
Q Have you through the services of your office had
listings and made properties available to persons being
relocated in the City View-Riedsille Road area?
A We have relocated in the City View area, yes.
Q 1)0 y°u have ar opinion as to the range of values
of new homes built in this area in the past ten or fifteen
years, along Highway 311 and in the new residential areas
that you Just referred to, that are in the 23 percent area?
A Yes, I am familiar with the price ranges in this
area. They are from ten to seventy-five thousand dollars.
The medium, 1 would say, would be in the twenty to twenty-
five thousand.
0 Wliat are the names of some of the residential
developments of recent years going out Highway 311 and on
each side of the highway?
A There is Northwood Estates, which is the largest
recent development, with roughly 500 new homes, ranging up
to 23, 24, 25 thousand dollars.
o f th e s o u th e rn bo und a ry o f t h a t a re a , i s i t ?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q Where i3 it located?
A This is off of Carver Road to the left. This
area backs up to the Smith-Reynolds Airport.
Q That would be to the west of Carver Road?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right.
A On the east in the Cumberland Road area, or
Cumberland Road, you have the houses ranging up to— one
ranges up to $75,000; the medium would be $30,000 to $40,000
In this large area here, that goes all the way down to
Carver School—
Q That would be on the—
A That would be on the east side of Carver Road.
Northwood Estates is on the west side. In this total area
are scattered homes that are in the higher priced range,
and on down Carver Road; Spalding Drive has homes in the
$25,000-$35,000 range; Winston Lake Estates, the same range.
Those are private developments in that 23 percent area.
Q Are there some apartments on Highway 311 there at
Winston Lake?
A Yes, sir. There are 100 units of public housing
for theeLderly. Of course, this is under the leased housing
program.
0 What is the name of that?
A That's called East Gate Village.
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Q
A
Q What is the racial makeup of the persona who live
in that particular project? Is that a leased area?
A 90 percent black$ 10 percent white.
THE COURT: You had a name for that?
THE WITNESS: That is East Gate Village.
THE COURT: East Gate Village.
(By Mr. Womble) And its exaot location is where?
It's Highway 311 or New Walkertown Road. On this
map, we don’t have streets doing down in it, but It ia
directly across the street from East Drive, or the Lakeald©
Apartments which you might be familiar with.
C Is East Gate Village and Lakeside Apartments the
same thing?
A No. Lakeside Apartments are privately owned.
East Gate Village is a public housing program.
Q Now, when Lakeside Apartments were built, were
the original tenants there white or Negro?
A They were white.
And are the tenants there today white or Negro?
It’s 100 percent black occupancy.
And it is a privately owned apartment, Is it?
Right.
How many units are there, do you know?
I think there are two hundred and sixty some
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
onits there.
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Q How old are those apartments?
A These apartments were built during World War n .
Q Now, in the 6 percent area, can you define that
in any way as to geographic boundaries? It's pretty spread
out on the map.
A Again to the north is 1-40, and it runs down to
Waughtown Street, to the south, generally Stadium Drive on
the east, and Alder Street on the west. And the second
area—
Q That’s the second part of the 6 percent area?
A Right. It’s Devonshire on the north, Station
Street on the west, Thomasville Road on the east, and
Joyce on the south. That’s a crowded street on the south.
Q What was the racial composition of this 6 percent
area at the time you began your work as relocation officer?
A The first area of this 6 percent reading was all
black. The last described area— ■
Q The first described area lies generally west of
the Stadium, does it?
A Yes.
Q All right.
A The second area, except for a small portion on
Moravia Street, was all white, except for this small area,
this Moravia Street area.
Q Would that be the southwest portion of the bottom
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s e c t io n o f th e 6 p e rc e n t a rea?
A It would be.
Q Please state whether or not you have shown places
of residences to persons whom you were finding homes for in
that area.
A We did show homes, and in fact relocated people
to that area.
Q Mr. Andrews, let's see, in which one of these
areas would the City Hospital, the former City Hospital,
be?
A It would be in the 23 percent area. The old
City Hospital would be right in here (indicating on map).
Q What was the racial composition of that area
immediately west of the hospital and north and south of the
hospital when you were a boy?
A It was all white.
Q And what is it now?
A It is non-white.
Q What have the persons whom you have relocated -
strike that - Have you had a regular questionnaire that you
have filled out in connection with your relocation work on
each of the persons to be relocated?
A Yes, sir, I have. We of course do one hundred
percent surveys before we go into execution of an Urban
Renewal project. I didn’t bring that survey sheet with me.
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THE COURT: You say you went with the Redevelopment
Commission, Mr. Andrews, in what year?
THE WITNESS: In September of 1961.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) I show you Defendants' Exhibit 38,
and I ask you if that is a copy, a form that you use in
connection with your relocation services?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 38
for identification.)
A Yes, sir.
Q What are the questions that you ask a person in
undertaking to find out where they would want to move to?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: The best evidence rule, Your Honor,
if he has a document.
THE COURT: Do you have a sheet that contains the
questions?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Are those the questions? I'll let him
tell what they are. Are you going to introduce that?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A Question 7 on this sheet asks in what neighborhood
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-1133-
o f t h e c i t y w o u ld y o u r a t h e r l i v e a n d w h y .
Q (By M r. W om b le) W hat k i n d o f r e s p o n s e s h a v e y o u
gotten to that q u e s t i o n ?
A We h a v e h a d n i n e t y p e r c e n t o f t h e p e o p l e t o a n s w e r
that they w o u ld r a t h e r r e l o c a t e i n t h e sa m e g e n e r a l n e i g h
b o r h o o d , a n d t h e y g i v e r e a s o n s s u c h a s f r i e n d s , t h e i r c h u r c h ,
or t h e i r w o r k , o r y o u k n o w , t h e l o n g l i s t o f r e a s o n s w h y .
But the s u r v e y r e s u l t s s h o w e d n i n e t y p e r c e n t o f t h e p e o p l e
want to relocate i n t h a t sa m e g e n e r a l n e i g h b o r h o o d .
Q Now, y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e n o r t h e r n s e c t i o n ,
up in the P a t t e r s o n A v e n u e - B o n A i r s e c t i o n - t h a t w o u ld b e
one of the f i r s t a r e a s t h a t y o u t e s t i f i e d a b o u t t h i s a f t e r
noon - a s h a v i n g g o n e t h r o u g h a t r a n s i t i o n a l p e r i o d ?
A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
Q Are y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h a n y l o c a l i t i e s i n t h e C i t y
of W in s t o n - S a le m w h e r e t h e r e h a v e b e e n b l a c k s l i v i n g f o r a
long n u m b er o f y e a r s a n d w h ic h w o u ld n o t b e c h a r a c t e r i z e d
a s t r a n s i t i o n a l a r e a s a l t h o u g h t h e y a r e s u r r o u n d e d b y w h i t e
areas? Would y o u p o i n t o u t s u c h a r e a s a n d s t a t e w h e r e t h e y
are in t h e C i t y o f W in s t o n - S a le m ?
A As I m e n t i o n e d e a r l i e r , t h e M o r a v ia S t r e e t a r e a ,
ill of my l i f e I c a n r e c a l l t a l k a b o u t B e l l v i e w a n d t h e r e
/ere always a f e w b l a c k s t h e r e w i t h w h i t e s s u r r o u d i n g th e m ,
Q I b e l i e v e y o u d i d s a y t h a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n so m e
>lacks moving in t h a t n e i g h b o r h o o d i n t h e l a s t f e w y e a r s ?
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A Yes, sir. That area has been extended now.
Q Southward?
A Yes. Also the Watkins Street area, whioh is very
close to center city. I can always recall - I had friends
who lived in this area - that’s Watkins Street off of Broad -
down near Reynolds High School - if I can find that street.
Up here - not on Carolina Circle, but one of the streets
there, I have always been— there have always been blacks
that lived in that area. And the West 8th Street area,
and Broad, and down in that area, there have always been
blacks. I can remember all of my life visiting in that
area. There have always been a few blacks who live in an
area right off of Shattalon Road, which is way to the north
of the city (indicating on map).
THE COURT: How do you spell Shattalon?
THE WITNESS: That’s S-h-a-t-t-a-l-o-n.
THE COURT: Thank you. You say all of your life?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is that twenty-one plus?
THE WITNESS: Thirty-nine.
MR. WOMBLE: He's thirty-nine.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Andrews, with respect
to public housing, I show you Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 20,
a letter from David L. Thorapkins to Mr. Bob Valder, Regional
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Director, Legal Defense Fund, Charlotte. Who is Mr.
Thompkins?
A Mr. Thompkins is Director of Management for the
Winston-Salem Housing Corporation.
G Is he in the same office building with you there?
A Yes.
Q And what is the relationship between your work and
his work for the Housing Authority?
A Well, we work closely together. Again, as
Director of Community Services, I'm to see that new social
goals are in fact a part of public housing, and this relates
of course to management. It's an inseparable action.
Q Do you know Mr. Valder?
A Yes, I've talked with him at Charlotte.
Q Did he talk to you about these matters that I
have been asking you about this afternoon?
A Yes, he did.
THE COURT: Is it Mr. Thompkins?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: He is Director of what?
THE WITNESS: Management.
MR. WOMBLEs Management Director of the Housing
Authority.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, the attachments, I direct
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your attention to the attachments that are attached to
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 20 entitled "Report on Occupancy of
Areas Housing Authority Housing". What is the policy of
the Housing Authority with respect to the renting of units
in the public housing?
A There is a non-discriminatory policy which is in
effect by this Authority.
Q How long has this policy been in effect?
A Since 1964.
Q Since the Civil Rights Act?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall whether or not the initial housing -
strike that. Do you know what the criteria were in connec
tion with the original development of the public housing in
the community?
A Yes, 3ir.
Q What were they?
A Back in 1937 was a slum clearance program;
public housing was designated to go into areas where you
cleared slum housing, to erect new housing.
Q And that is what controlled the location of it at
at that time?
A That’s right.
Q And at that time, do you know what public housing
was constructed in the city?
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A Yes, sir.
Q What projects?
A The first project was Happy Hill Gardens, which
was here—
Q Which is located where?
A That’s located in the southern area of town. If
I might go back in my testimony as to these sections, this
is a black area, the Alder Street area. The first public
housing was built in this area (indicating on map).
Q That would be in the—
A In the 6 percent area.
Q The south central portion of the north part of
the 6 percent area?
A Right. That was 497 units, I believe.
Q Since 1964, this housing has been open on a non-
discriminatory basis?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether or not any whites have applied
to move into It or have moved into it?
A We have not gotten one white applicant.
Q All right. Now, what is the next housing project?
A The next housing project was Kimberly Park, which
is in this 34 percent area, this southern portion of it. It
runs from Northwest Boulevard to Glenn, and then it extended
on up the line to Larchmont Avenue.
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THE COURT: What year was that, Mr. Andrews, when
Kimberly Park was built?
THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm not sure of the date.
It's roughly fifteen years old.
THE COURT: Fifteen years more or less?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What project - Kimberly Park,
what designation does it have?
A Twelve-three.
Q Twelve-three?
A Yes, sir. You see, there are two sections of it.
Q How many units are there in the Kimberly Park
public housing?
A 556 units.
Q And what is the occupancy of those units?
A One hundred percent black occupancy.
Q And what would the next public housing unit be?
A Piedmont Park.
Q Where is Piedmont Park located?
A Piedmont Park is located in the northern area of
the city near Smith-Reynolds Airport. It is built on the
old fairgrounds property.
Q And what was that residential area as to race
around the old fairgrounds property at the time Piedmont
Park was built?
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A It was white
Q What is the racial composition— well, how many
units are there in that project and what is the racial
makeup of the people who live there?
A There are 236 units there, 95 are white, 143
Negro.
Q What other public housing is there in the city?
A Cleveland Avenue Homes, with 249 units - no, 244.
Q How old is it?
A It is twelve years old. It was built in a black
area.
Q What is the occupancy of it?
A It is totally black.
Q Are there any other public housing units, that is
other than the leased units or some of the new Turnkey jobs?
A No, there are no public housing units other than
leased housing, which we discussed already, plus scattered
leased housing.
Q Do you have any leased housing on West 4th Street?
A We have twelve units on West 4th.
Q Where on West 4th Street are they located?
A They are located near the Peters Creek Parkway.
Q Near the point where 4th Street runs into Peters
Creek Parkway over there, adjoins it?
A That's correct.
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Q What is the occupancy of those units?
A All white.
Q Has your office shown those units to both white
and black residents?
A We have.
Q What has the reaction been froa the black resi
dents?
MR. CHAMBERS; Objection. Hearsay, Your Honor.
THE COURT; Overruled. You have shown them to
them?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: The question was what was the
reaction to them being shown, and he was testifying
now to what they said.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Did you offer those persons an
opportunity to rent there?
A We did.
Q That is black persons?
A That is correct.
Q Did any of them accept the offer and agree to
live there?
A None chose to live there.
THE COURT: You say there are twelve units?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I'm not as familiar with your city as
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you are. Now, physically, I know where Peters Creek is.
Where is that, can you tell me, or maybe you could
point it out on the map. The one you have there is
all right. I'll look right over your shoulder,
THE WITNESS: Twelve units right here. This is
the Peters Creek Parkway. There's a hill and there are
some apartments that we leased from private enterprise,
THE COURT: I see. Mr. Womble, i3 your examina
tion going to be much longer?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir; I think I'll be through in
Just a few minutes.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Do you recall any incidents in
which - strike that. Do you recall any fairly recent
incidents in which a black person was shown a house on
Queen Street? Are you familiar with that?
A I'm not.
Q Now, what other types of housing - let's see now.
You've mentioned the leased housing on 4th Street, and the
leased housing at East Gate Village. Is there any other
leased housing that is rented through the Housing Authority?
A Yes. We have scattered leased housing, not a
great number of them, but we have them scattered throughout
the city.
Q And are they available to all persons without
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discrimination on the basis of race?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. He may testify what the
policy might be, but certainly not what the conclusion
would be.
THE COURT: Re-word your question.
q (By Mr. Womble) What is the policy of the
Housing Authority with respect to the renting of these
leased housing units throughout the city?
A The Housing Authority operates on a non-discrimina-
tory basis in all of its programs.
q What other housing, what other types of housing
projects does the Housing Authority have?
A We are now developing a new program, Turnkey III
Housing. This is a public housing program released to home
ownership. We have selected along with HUD sites in Winston-
Salem to construct Turnkey III, which is being developed by
private enterprise and the Housing Authority, buy them from
private enterprise.
Q How many locations are currently included in this
program?
A We have eight locations at this point.
q Are they shown on the map that you were looking at
there?
A Yes, sir. These are the Turnkey III sites that we
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have (indicating on map).
THE COURT: I wish you'd tell me for my notes
where they are, Just generally. Are you going to ask
him that?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, I will, Your Honor. I'll offer
into evidence Defendants' Exhibit 38, the renewal area
survey form, and also as Defendants' Exhibit 39 th©
map showing the location of housing projects.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 39
for identification.)
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection to the last.
THE COURT: Let the record show—
MR. CHAMBERS: On the basis of the relevance of
the documents, Your Honor. Our contention is that the
present— well, we are contending that the community is
presently segregated. Practices existing prior to
today - and they have no effect on the Court's as to
whether the School Board must go forward and do what
has been created in the past.
THE COURT: Accordingly let the record show the
plaintiffs' objection, and let Defendants' Exhibits 38
and 39 be received into the evidence.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bits Nos. 38 and 39 for identifica
tion, were received in evidence.)
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a, a s s o c i a t e s
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, could you state
briefly where the eight Turnkey III sites are?
A There are ninety-nine units, a 99-unit site in
the extreme northern section of the city. The major streets
would be Cherry Street, and actually this is Cherry Street
Extension - that's why I say the extreme north part of the
city. And other further description of the areas are— do
you want to know just where they are?
Q I think that's all right.
A The next site is Patterson Avenue Extension, near
the King's Department Store. Another site is going to the
east, or the northeastern section of the city, is North
hampton Drive.
THE COURT: What section is that? The northeast
section?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) East and somewhat north of the
airport?
A Right.
Q All right.
A Another 89-unit is in the City View area that we
discussed earlier, or off of Riedsville Road. Another 211
units is in the Morningside Manor area, which is near the
Bowman Gray Stadium. Another is in the Broadbay section,
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or this is off of Highway 311 or the High Point Road. The
sixth one is on the Rose Street area off of the Clemmons-
ville Road. And the seventh one is off of Old Lexington
Road near Western Electric. Oh, that’s eight, that’s right.
Q The last two were seven and eight instead of six
and seven, is that right?
A Right.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I might have one or two
other questions, but I believe that this is a good
stopping point for the night.
THE COURT: All right; you may come down. Let's
take a recess until the morning at 9:30.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled
case was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on January 28,
1970.)
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P R O C E E D I N G S
’llU.. COURT: All right, Mr. Andrews; if you will
resume the stand, please. Mr. Womble, you were on direct
examination?
WHEREUPON,
WILLIAM H. ANDREWS
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Andrews, Just for the record -
I don't think I asked you yesterday - what race are you?
A I am of the black race.
q You testified, I believe, that the Piedmont Park
Housing Project was initially occupied by white persons?
A Yes, sir.
q When did the Board of the Housing Authority of
the City of Winston-Salem first take action toward integra
ting that facility, or any facility of the Housing Authority,
as a matter of policy?
A The Commissioners of the Housing Authority on the
28th of January, 1964, passed a resolution saying there
would be no discrimination in housing operated by this
Commission.
Q How soon after that was integration in public
housing initiated in the City of Winston-Salem?
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MR. CHAMBERS: May I make an Inquiry there? You
said integration was a conclusion of law?
THE COURT: That’s true. I know the context you
lawyers use that in, Mr. Womble, and you understand
that.
Q (By Mr. Womble) How soon after that was a person
of the black race first rented a unit in a public housing
unit in the City of Winston-Salem?
A Approximately a month after the passage of this
resolution.
Q And that was in a unit that was formerly occupied
by all white—
A Right.
Q Persons?
A Right.
Q Which unit was that?
A That was In a unit in Piedmont Park.
Q Was this before or after the passage of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964?
A This action was taken before the passing of the
Civil Rights Act of '64.
Q Do you know when the HHFA Regulations under the
Civil Rights Act of 1964 went into effect?
A The Regulations pertaining to HHFA became effective
January 3rd, 1965.
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- i
0 I believe you testified yesterday that it is the
policy of the Redevelopment Commission of the City of
Winston-Salem to be racially non-discriminatory in relocat
ing persons who have to move on account of urban redevelop
ment, is that correct?
A This has been the policy since '61, as to the
execution of urban renewal in Winston-Salem.
Q In other words, that was since the beginning of
urban renewal in this community?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLEr I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I have nothing at this time, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Mr, Price?
MR. PRICE: Nothing, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers?
CROSS EXAMINATION
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Andrews, are you telling
the Court that there has been no discrimination in the sale
or rental of housing in the City of Winston-Salem?
A No, sir.
0 In fact there has been to your knowledge?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. The question is to your
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knowledge, has there been discrimination.
A As far as renewal is concerned—
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I'm not talking about that;
I'm talking about the sale or rental of housing in the
City of Winston-Salem. To your knowledge there has been
di scrimination?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. I realize that that is—
probably strictly applying the rules of evidence, but
I'm allowing it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Are you familiar with the
ordinance of the City of Winston that restricted Negroes to
certain areas of the city?
A I am fairly familiar with past ordinances, yes,
sir.
Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5* which is a map
of the City of Winston. Starting with Plaintiffs' Exhibit
No. 1, it's an ordinance of the City of Winston of 1912
passed at a special meeting of the City Council of Winston
on June 30th. I'll ask you if you will read the first
paragraph of that ordinance on the second page.
A "Be it ordained by the Board of Aldermen of the
City of Winston that it shall be unlawful for any colored
person to own or occupy any dwelling - bounded, I guess -
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A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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-1150-
this la handwritten - '’bounded east by Fourth Street
between Depot Street and the city limits on the east."
That is that paragraph.
Q A11 right* Would you read the second paragraph?
A "Be it further ordained by the Board of Aldermen
of the City of Winston that it shall be unlawful for any
white people to occupy as a residence any dwelling on 3rd
Street from Depot east to Ridge Avenue."
Q Are you familiar with those sections of the city?
A I am.
Q Have they been white and black as indicated in the
ordinance?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Wait a minute. Your question was
have they been white and black as indicated by the
ordinance, and the answer was yes?
THE WITNESS: I would have to answer further on
the question, but this has been the fact back through
the years. But I was born in this area.
0 (By Mr. Chambers) On Fourth Street?
A Yes.
Q Under this ordinance it restricted the area to
whites and blacks, right?
A Right.
Q Now, would you look at the third paragraph and tell
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O r r i c i A L C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
WINSTON SALEM. N C.
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tiic w 0".;rt wi'.at Ulat ^VViUtfa.
A "Be it further ordained that no white people
shall be permitted to occupy as a residence any dwelling
on Depot Street from 6th Street north to Liberty Street."
Are you familiar1 with that area of the city?
I am.
Has that been traditionally black?
Yes.
And the fourth paragraph established a misdemeanor
for violation of the ordinances, is that correct?
A Yes.
U I show you Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 2, and ask you to
tell the Court what the first paragraph of that ordinance
appearing on the second page provides.
A That it shall be unlawful for any white person to
occupy as a residence or to establish and maintain as a
place of public assembly any house on the street or in an
alley between two adjacent streets of which a greater number
of houses are occupied as residence by colored people than
occupied by white people.
Q Would you read the second paragraph?
A "That it shall be unlawful for any colored person
to occupy as a residence or to establish and maintain as a
place of public assembly any house upon any street or alley
between two adjacent streets on which a greater number of
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O r r i c i A L C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
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houses are occupied in residence by white people than
occupied as residence by colored people."
Q Does the third paragraph there require that a
person planning to build a house indicate whether the house
is going to be for whites or blacks?
A I'll have to read it.
MR. WOMBLE: What is that exhibit that you are
referring to?
MR. CHAMBERSi Exhibit 2.
A It does.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) These two ordinances set up a
segregated community for the City of Winston-Salem, did they
not?
MR. WOMBLEi Objection.
THE COURTl Sustained.
MR. CHAMBERS: May I let the record show what his
answer would have been, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may answer for the record.
A In 1912, when those ordinances were adopted, I
would say yes.
0 (By Mr. Chambers) I show you Plaintiffs* Exhibit
4, an ordinance for the City of Winston-Salem.
MR. WOMBLE: On that other, we would move to strike.
Your Honor. It was 1912j it's thirty-nine years old.
THE COURT: Motion allowed, but let the record
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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r e f l e c t w h a t t h e a n s w e r w o u ld b e .
Q (B y M r. C h a m b e r s ) A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e
z o n i n g o r d i n a n c e f o r 1 9 3 0 ?
A N o t c o m p l e t e l y f a m i l i a r .
Q A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e z o n i n g p r o v i d i n g A - l
r e s i d e n c e s f o r w h i t e a n d Ar-2 r e s i d e n c e s f o r N e g r o e s a n d B - l
r e s i d e n c e s f o r w h i t e a n d B - 2 r e s i d e n c e s f o r N e g r o e s ?
A I c a n ’ t h o n e s t l y s a y t h a t I am f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e
z o n i n g o r d i n a n c e o f 1 9 3 0 .
Q I f y o u w i l l l o o k a t p a g e 1 3 o f t h e z o n i n g o r d i
n a n c e , w h ic h i s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i b i t 4 - A , a n d r e a d t h e p a r a
g r a p h t h e r e , S e c t i o n 1 0 o f t h a t o r d i n a n c e .
A " I n A - l , B - l a n d C - l r e s i d e n t d i s t r i c t s , n o
b u i l d i n g o r a p a r t t h e r e o f s h a l l b e o c c u p i e d o r u s e d b y a
p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s o f t h e N e g r o r a c e ; p r o v i d e d , h o w e v e r , t h a t
t h i s s e c t i o n s h a l l n o t b e I n t e r p r e t e d t o p r o h i b i t a n y o f
t h e f o l l o w i n g . "
Q R e a d t h e e x c e p t i o n .
A " U se o r o c c u p a n c y b y N e g r o s e r v a n t , c h a u f f e r u , o r
o t h e r e m p lo y e e w h e n e m p lo y e r r e s i d e s i n t h e sa m e b u i l d i n g
o r i n a b u i l d i n g o n t h e sa m e l o t . "
Q R e a d o n .
A " U se o f o c c u p a n c y b y a n y p e r s o n w h o a t t h e t i m e
o f t a k i n g e f f e c t o f t h i s o r d i n a n c e i s t h e o w n e r o f t h e u s e d
o r o c c u p i e d b u i l d i n g o r o f t h e l o t u p o n w h ic h s u c h b u i l d i n g
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8. A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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may be erected, or who at said time shall have contracted
the purchase of the same by valid and enforceable contract
of purpose, or by his successor in title by will or descent.1'
Q The third exception?
A "Use or occupancy by a member of the immediate
family or servant or lodger or lessee or tenant of any
person described in the above paragraph. (B) At any or
all times during his concurrent ownership and residence in
or on the building or lot."
Q Would you read Section 11, the first part of
Section 11 on page 14?
A "In a B-2 and C-2 resident districts, no building
or part thereof shall be occupied or used by a person or
persons of the white race; provided, however, that this
section shall not be interpreted to prohibit any of the
following."
Q And it provides basically the same exceptions as
under A-l, B-l and C-l?
A Yes.
Q Look at Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5. It shows the
zoning code A-l, and it's indicated by whites, no markings
at all. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q A-2 has dotted spots in it, is that correct?
A That's correct.
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Q Would you look at the map now, at the section
that is zoned A-l and tell me - tell the Court whether that
area has traditionally been white?
A It has.
U Is it presently white?
A There have been changes.
Q Would you indicate the changes?
A The area I mentioned yesterday, up in the northern
area, Shattalon.
Ct Where is Shattalon on the map?
A This map doesn't include all of that area, so
let's go back. The northern part stops at 25th Street.
Q Let me rephrase the question for you then, so
that we can move on. Is that area today predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the area indicated for A-l?
Tell the Court whether that area— I'm sorry. A^2. Tell
the Court whether that area has been traditionally Negro?
A Yes.
Q Is it today Negro?
A Yes, sir.
Q Look at the area indicated B-l.
A Yes, sir.
Q Has that area been traditionally white?
A It has.
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O f f k i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q Is it today predominantly white?
A It is not.
0 Tell the Court the changes.
A Around 9th Street and North Winston School, up
Patterson Avenue, Greenway - this area has changed to black
occupancy.
q Now, take that area that you Just indicated. Is
that the area where you relocated some families for urban
renewal in 1962 or '63?
A Yes, sir.
Q What other area lias changed - in the B-2 zoning as
of 1930 - B-l zoning; I ’m sorry.
A In the Ilappy Hill area, which was originally
partially black. This has expanded to differ with 1930.
Q How did it change? From white to black or black
to white?
A From white to black.
Q Is that an area where you also relocated some
families?
A No. This area changed before - I would say before
any relocation from redevelopment.
Q Would you name the streets involved in that area?
A All right. In 1930, you had up Waughtown Street,
this shows B-l, blacks have moved in the houses that remained
there. Bailey Street, which is south of Waughtown Street,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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there have been some minor changes there.
Q Is there any other area that you know from the
1930’s that has changed in the B-l zoning?
A I can't recognize any at this point. I'm not
very familiar with this.
q with respect to the B-l zoning area where you
indicate some change, were those changes in the eastern
part of the city, either southeastern or northeastern part
of the city?
A Yes, sir.
0 Now, look at the B-2 zoning and tell the Court
whether the B-2 zoning area has been traditionally Negro?
A It has.
Q Is it today Negro?
A It is.
0 Look at the C-l zoning and tell the Court whether
that area has been traditionally white.
A It has.
Q Is it today predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at the C-2 zoning and tell the
Court whether that area has been traditionally Negro?
A Yes.
Q And is it today all Negro?
A It is.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M N C
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-1158-
Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 42, which is an
iverlay for the City of Winston. Come down here. According
■x> the code used on this exhibit, census tracts 3, 4, 5, 6,
r and 16 are occupied by 90 to 100 percent Negro, is that
iorrect?
A That's correct.
Q In your opinion, does that exhibit reflect the
surrect racial population of those tracts?
A It does.
Q According to that exhibit, census tract 2 shows
B9 to 90 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q According to that exhibit, census tract 8 shows
80 to 90 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A That's correct.
q According to that exhibit, census tract 19 shows
50 to 60 percent Negro. In your opinion, is that correct?
A I would hesitate to say 50 to 60 percent is
correct.
Q What percentage do you think it would be?
A There are more whites that live in this area than
blacks. I think the percentage there is a wider spread than
50 to 60 percent.
Q Would you tell the Court vhether the area now occu
pied by 90 to 100 percent Negro is the same area we were
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8. A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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part of the city. . ̂ aastem pert of the city? q And Negroes on the eastern p
A Yos
q And that'a basically the way the city la divided
racially today, isn’t it?
A. Basically.
the COURTi Mr. Andrews, you indicate in your
T.m not familiar with Winston-Salem; I testimony - I'm not iamxxx
dlan.t grow UP here - but in this area you referred to
some area where Melees lived, you referral1 * ’
area over close to Reynolds School in this white area.
Can you show me where those- I understood they were
small areas?
TIE WITNESSt Yes, sir.
the COURT, could you show me on the map where
they are? _
the WITNESS, All right, sir. This would be one
small area in here near Reynolds High School. Another
area is Wat,ins Street, which is off of Broad again
\ t m»ntlon«ci Sh&ttoin this area (indicating on P
. v it's in the extreme northern area Ion Drive yesterday. It 3 m
of the city.
THE COURT, Where are you pointing?
the WITNESS, This is Shattalon Drive, Tour Honor.
There are some other ampler area, that traditionally
G R A H A M E B L A C H E R 8. A S S O C I A T E S
O m i U L COURT REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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through the years blacks have lived.
THE COURT: I see. All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Andrews, if you were giving
a divider between the white and Negro residence in the City
of Winston, what would you indicate would be the dividing
line? What street or what marking?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A You might say that the dividing line might
be Cherry-Marshall or Thurmond Street, that runs north and
south, and of course maybe splits the town east to west.
Q Is that Cherry-Marshall and Thurmond Streets?
A And Thurmond Street, yes. They are parallel
streets. 1 can show them to you on the map. The section
on the western portion, you have 1-40—
Q That runs east and west?
A East and west. After you get back over to Clare
mont Avenue or the Cemetery Street, then you would go in
this area.
0 That’s in the southeastern part of the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just for the record again, the north-south divider
would be Cherry-Marshall and Thurmond Streets?
A Right.
Q And the 1-40 would mark the southern divider?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A The western section of the city’s southern divider
q Now, what would be the eastern section of the
's southern divider?
A Perhaps the community of Salem east.
q In the southeastern part of the city?
A Yes.
Q They are pretty distinct areas, aren t they?
MR. WOMBLEx ubject.
THE COURT: Sustained.
q (By Mr. Chambers) I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit
, which shows the census tract racially in the city as of
I960. According to this exhibit, census tracts 3, 6 and 7
have the highest concentration or had the highest concentra
tion of Negroes in I960. In your opinion, would that be
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in 1969, census tracts 16, 4, 5, have changed
from what they were in I960 to now 90 to 100 percent Negro?
A Yes.
Q i think you testified that that’s correct?
A That's correct.
q I believe you had some turban renewal location in
census tract 4. That’s around, I believe, North Elementary
and Lowrance?
A Yes.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M N C.
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Q I think you indicated that you didn't relocate
nost of the families there but you did relocate some?
A That's correct.
Q And I believe you indicated you relocated some
families in census tract 16?
A That's correct.
Q Out by the airport?
A Right.
Q And that changed from 80 to 90 percent in I960 to
now 90 to 100 percent?
A Right.
0 I think you indicated you relocated some families
in census tract 5?
A Correct.
Q And that changed from 70 to 80 percent in I960 to
now 90 to 100 percent?
A That's right.
Q Again you say you didn't relocate all of the
families there, but you did relocate some?
A Yes.
Q Plaintiffs' Exhibit 43 shows your relocation
activity; at least that is what it has been testified to
show. In your opinion, does that exhibit accurately reflec
the orange shows relocation of 6 percent, that 6 percent of
the families were relocated in the orange area. This is the
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R Sr A S S O C I A T E S
O r f H I A L COUNT R lN O R T lR S
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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orange here?
A Yes, right; that's correct.
Q It shows in green that 23 percent of the families
were relocated in the green area. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q It shows in the purple that 34 percent of the
families were relocated there?
A That's correct.
Q It shows in the blue, up here, that 37 percent
of the families were relocated there?
A That’s correct.
0 Now, the purple area is the area affecting census
tract 4?
A Yes.
Q The green area is the area affecting census tract
16?
A Right.
Q The blue area is the area affecting census tracts
5 and 6?
A Yes.
Q And the orange area is the area affecting census
tract 8?
A That's correct.
Q You went to school in the City of Winston? You
may take a seat.
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A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go to a Negro or white school?
A I went to a black school,
Q Which high school did you finish?
A Atkins High.
0 Were you assigned by freedom of choice or
assigned by boundary lines, or how were you assigned to
school, if you recall?
A As I recall, Atkins High was the only black high
school for me to attend.
Q And all Negroes in the city went to Atkins High
School?
A Right.
Q Was Carver in existence when you were going to
High School?
A Yes, it was,
Q Was it the high school for Negro county students?
A That's correct.
Q What elementary school did you attend?
A Columbia Heights Elementary School.
Q How were you assigned to elementary school, if you
recall?
A I don't recall. It was the school closest to my
home.
Q I think you indicated that you were alsc in real
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8< A S S O C I A T E S
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-1166
estate, or did some real estate before you went with Urban
Renewal?
A I worked with— I wasn’t a real estate broker.
0 Did you pass the Board?
A No, I was not a real estate broker.
Q Were you an agent?
A I worked with my father and Ernest Johnson, who
was in the real estate business in Winston-Salem.
0 Is either one of them a member of the Real Estate
Board in Winston?
A No, sir.
Q To your knowledge, does Winston Real Estate Board
or real estate organization have any Negro members?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. I think we are getting a
little far afield, Mr. Chambers, but my policy is to
let you people conclude and answer these questions.
Go ahead.
A Not to my knowledge.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you tell the Court what
multiple listing is?
A Yes. The multiple listing agency is set up by the
realtors in the City of Winston-Salem; they list individu
ally in this collective listing agency.
Q They list all of the houses?
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A That the member groups of the multiple listing
>rvice have, ye3, sir.
Q what restrictions does one who is not a member
f that board have?
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Do you know what the restrictions are?
THE WITNESS: No.
(By Mr. Chambers) You don't know of any limitaQ
.on?
No.
O Does he get a chance to know about all the houses
reliable for rental in the City of Winston-Salem?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: He said he didn't know about this.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know all of the mechanics
of the multiple listing service.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Let me ask you. Mr. Andrews,
Idn't you say yesterday that you talked to Mr. Robert
alder?
A Yes.
q Do you recall talking to him about multiple
Listing in Winston-Salem?
A Yes.
q Would you tell the Court what you told Mr. Valder
about the multiple listing in Winston-Salem?
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A I told him that I did not receive the multiple
listing service sheet, that we had worked with leading real
estate people and we got individual listinge of houses.
Q Would you tell the Court what limitations multiple
listing, or the lack of multiple listing would impose?
A One would possibly miss a complete listing of
all housing available.
Q In the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall when you were working with the real
estate agent whether houses were listed in the City of
Winston according to race, advertised in the newspaper?
A I recall this being advertised, yes.
Q You had a colored and a white section, is that
right?
A Right.
U Basically folowing the same pattern there, Negro
on the east side and whites on the west side?
A Correct.
Q You are familiar with the denial of services to
Negroes in public services in the City of Winston?
MR. V/OMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, are we going into all
those areas? There are many of them, of course, that
could be explored. We have to wrestle with this— my
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policy in these oases, having Included the defendants
MR. CHAMBERS: I Just want to put that question
to him. His testimony yesterday was to establish that
public housing and urban renewal had not had any effect
a, the racial pattern In the community, and we in pre
senting evidence relevant to the requirements of
Brewer vs. the School Board of Norfolk, and there the
Court said whether public and private action had had
any part in segregation In the community, end we think
that that will affect it, not only the sal. and rental
of housing but also discriminatory practices in public
accomodation. We've got a hotel her. and a motel
there—
MR. WOMBLEi Your Honor, we do object to this
testimony as not having relevance, end the Brewer case.
It seems to us that there are actually two thing, that
are significant that bear on this. Number one is that
in the Brewer case, it is not actually talking about
history; it is talking about the situation as it exists,
and the court uses this language: "Assignment of pupll-
to neighborhood schools is a sound concept but it
cannot be approved if residence in a neighborhood is
denied to Negro pupils solely on the ground of color."
This case was decided May 31, 1968. Within two and a
half weeks after this case was decided, the Supreme
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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Court handed down the decision in Jones vs. Mayor on
June 16th, 1968, barring all racial discrimination,
public or private, in the sale or rental of property.
Now, regardless of what history was, the law is
that a person may not be denied the right to purchase
or to rent on account of race, and that has been the
clear law since about two weeks after Brewer came down.
And to go into these things that are history, we say,
is not relevant under Brewer and the only reason - the
only point that we can see is for some historical data
purpose that really doesn't have a bearing on today’s
lew.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I won’t belabor the
point—
THE COURT: I'm going to let you go ahead, Mr.
Chambers. I somewhat wonder about the real pertinency
of it, but I'm going to let you go ahead. Overruled;
you may answer the question, if you remember what it
was. Could you repeat it, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: I'll repeat it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) You are familiar with the
prior practices here in the City of Winston denying accommo
dations to Negroes in places of public accommodation?
MR. WOMBLE: We object.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Restaurants, hotels—
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—
A
THE COURT: Overruled; you may answer.
I am, Mr. Chambers.
Q You are familiar with Tanglewood Park?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
0 That’s in the County of Winston?
A I am.
Q Which excludes Negroes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you vent with the Urban Renewal Commission
in 1961?
A Right, sir.
0 And you stated that the policy of the Commission
at that time was not to discriminate against Negroes?
A That's correct.
Q I think you stated that you relocated 1615 families
from 1961 to the present?
A That's correct.
Q Is it true that all of those families were re-
located in all Negro or areas that were changing to Negro?
A That's correct.
Q Is it true that you knew at the time that you
relocated those families that those areas were changing to
Negro?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
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THE COURT: Overruled.
A Not all areas, no.
u (By Mr. Chambers) Which areas did you not know?
A The Heitman Drive area, which is south of town.
0 Southeast?
A Yes, sir.
p That’s part of the 6 percent?
A That’s correct.
0 You knew that all of the northeastern areas were
either all Negro or changing to all Negro?
A At the time of the first relocation into the Green
way area, I did not think that it would change to an all
black area.
G Where is that?
A This was north, north of town. I have reason
for thinking this, if you want to question me.
0 Thinking that it would not change?
A Yes.
0 What other area did you not think was going to
change to all Negro?
A No other areas.
U Was there any other area that you knew was going
to change to Negro?
A Yes.
0 You knew that about the area around Lowrance
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Elementary School and North Elementary?
A This is the north Winston area that we were Just
referring to.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I ’m not going to let
you ask if he knew any more. He could have an opinion
about itj somebody can’t know what something is going
to do, you know, like that. And I am sure Mr. Andrews
is not trying to be dishonest, but that puts him in a
bad light. He couldn’t know. All right; go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Well, is it a fact, Mr.
Andrews, that all of the areas have now changed to all
Negro?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. I believe he’s testified
to that before, but I'll let you answer.
A The Heitman Drive area has not changed to all
Negro. It is predominantly Negro; there are still roughly
six to eight families in the — white families in the north
Winston area.
Q Is that the only exception?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you also relocated some families who
were uprooted because of Highway 52?
A That portion that runs through the urban renewal
area, yes, sir.
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q Did that include, or were those families involved
there, were they part of the 1615?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you relocated any white families?
A We have been called upon by the Highway Commission
to assist them in relocating some white families in the
southern portion of Highway 52. We have not in fact re
located any; we have let the Highway Commission use our
current referral booking, listings.
q so from 1961 to the present, the Urban Renewal
Commission has not relocated any white families?
A No, sir.
q You testified about public housing, and you say
that Happy Hill Carden was the first public housing project
in the City of Winston?
A That’s correct.
Q Was it built for Negroes?
A It was.
q Located in a Negro area?
A Yes, sir.
q Was it located on a vacant lot?
A Some of the land was vacant, and I understand some
structures, some dilapidated structures were t o m down.
u you indicated that Kimberly Park was the second
public housing?
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r Si a s s o c i a t e s
official COURT Reporters
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C.
Phone: 765 0636
-1175
* ■»+■ TVm't was built in "two The first section of it. Th
Was that built lor Negro?
Yes, slr‘ _
tad piedmont Par*, the third proj.ot, we. built
for whites?
A That's correct.
Q Cleveland Avenue was built in a Negro area?
A That's correct.
q Was it built for Negroes, too?
A it was.
q tod you had a seoond addition to Kimberly Par*.
Now, the only white project you had was Piedmont Par*?
A That's correct.
o And you say that that Is now ninety percent Negr
A NO. Those figures were Introduced yesterday;
there were 240-some residents there, and don’t recall — there
e on I think 90 white families and the bala there were 90, i xnxiu*
were blac*. I would have to refer to those figures.
o But you haven’t had any white families
into an all Negro project?
A we have not had the first applicant.
u well, you haven't had the a p p l i e d but you also
haven't put a family in?
A That’s correct.
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q You indicated that you had some leased units?
A Yes, sir.
q Do you recall how many leased units you had?
A Roughly 150.
q Are any whites in the leased units?
A Yes, sir.
0 Would you indicate on the map where they are?
A West Fourth Street, right here (indicating on map)
West Fourth near the Peters Creek Parkway, which is this
area. That's where there are leased units there.
Q That's all white?
A That's all white.
Q And that would be in census tract 11?
A I think it's 9, sir, I»m not sure. Let me check.
Yes.
Q And that census tract is 0 to 10 percent black?
A White.
Q It's 90 percent white according to that?
A Yes.
Q how many units do you have leased for Negroes?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT* Overruled.
q (By Mr. Chambers) How many units are leased by
the Housing Authority that are occupied by Negroes?
A Again, Mr. Chambers, I would have to refer to
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actual figures there.
Q You don’t have those with you?
A I didn't bring those today.
Q Do you have an approximate figure?
A Beg your pardon?
U Do you have an approximate figure?
A Yes, I would say approximately 150 units are
leased. I would estimate that 20 of them would be leased
to white.
Q You indicated twelve were in census tract 9; where
would the other eight be?
A In either census tract 9 or 10.
0 Let’s see. Census tract 10 would also be 90 per
cent white?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, where would the leased units to Negroes be?
A We have 100 units that would be in census tract 17»
I believe. I'll look a little closer. Yes, New Walkertown
Road; it's east. Here you are right here, New Walkertown
Road (indicating on map).
Q They would be in the city limits, would they?
A Yes. All public housing is in the city.
Q Would it show on your city map?
A Yes, sir. Of course I marked it on the map that
was put into evidence yesterday.
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Q Looking in Defendants’ Exhibit 39—
A Here you are right here, Old Walkertown Road.
Q Now, what school would be near that unit?
A Well, Mr. Chambers, if I might say, this is 100
units of leased housing for the elderly.
Q And that's occupied by all Negro?
A No, sir. Ninety-ten, 90 percent black occupancy.
Q Well, is that a Negro residential area?
A Yes, sir, it is now.
Q Well, where is the other leased unit for Negroes?
A All right, here they are. Spotted all around here
are six units. Here - they are all in this color (indica
ting on map).
0 Is that a Negro area?
A No. Well, yes, this is, yes.
q Well, what other area would be leased?
A Here's one. They're scattered all around. There's
at least one structure in a community; this is the reason
for having these dots.
Q I see. Now, is any in those areas west of the
line you indicated would be a divider?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you indicate those?
A Twelve units that I just mentioned.
Q Well, those twelve units occupied by whites?
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O ff ic i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q
A
Yes, sir.
I'm ..lung about any units now rented to Negroes.
No.
q They're all on the east side of that dividing
.ne, aren’t they?
A Yes.
q NOW, yesterday you also talked about some Turnkey
abs that you were considering?
A That's correct.
q Now, you have them marked on Defendants' Exhibit
A That's correct.
Q How many of those units are on the west aide of
le dividing line?
A These two.
q Would there be two or Just one?
A Two. 4
q What's the name of those units?
A Wall, I can give you the areas. Tomrlch Corpora-
icn is building 99 units - this is sailed Cherry View,
rhlch is the northend and west of this line. Housing,
incorporated built 222 units, Patterson Avenue Extension.
,hich is north of town and out of the area that we have
Inscribed as black or traditionally the black areas. Would
fou want me to—
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Q Wait a minute. Didn’t you tell me that Cherry
Street was the dividing line?
A Yes. When we talk about the Cherry Street—
from the map you have used, in this area that has been
traditionally all black areas.
Q We’re talking about Cherry running north and
south, and the housing unit you are now referring to by
being built by Housing, Inc., is east of that line, isn't
it?
A It is, yes.
Q It's east of the Cherry Street?
A Yes, but it is not east of the area that we refer
to down in central city, where we talked about tradition
in the ’30 map, where blacks have lived traditionally.
This is still traditionally all white.
U What elementary school is in that area?
A I would have to get the maps and so forth for that
area, but it would be all white. There are no traditionally
all black schools in that area, none at all.
Q That is on Forest Hill Avenue?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Patterson Avenue?
A In that area. It won't come down to Patterson
Avenue; it's up back in the area of Forest Hills.
Q Highway 52—
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1 A Is near it, yes. That’s the expressway.
2 Q The other units are also east of this dividing
3 line of Cherry Street?
4 A No, sir. Northampton Drive.
5 0 Is that east of Cherry Street?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Aren’t all the other unite east of Cherry Street?
8 They’re on the east side of the city, aren't they?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Aren’t they in predominantly Negro areas?
11 A They are not.
12 Q Which ones are not?
13 A All right.
14 0 I«m talking about those east.
15 A Northampton Drive is a white area. On the west
16 side of this Northampton site is a black, a traditionally
17 black area, Butterfield Drive in here. So what you have
18 done is actually, you'll have as many in this Northampton
19 area as you have here.
20 Q But you’ve got Negroes on the west side?
21 A You have Negroes on the west side of this site.
22 yes, sir. But whites on the east side.
23 Q Isn't that near Carver School?
1*1 A Yes, sir, this is near Carver School. The next
V site, 89 units is in what w. call the City View area.
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Q That isn’t a Negro area?
A No. The City View area is mixed; it’s a mixed
rea.
Q What census tract is that in?
A In 17.
THE COURT: How about pointing that out there?
Put your finger on it. I see; all right.
A So again, the City View area is in a mixed area.
Che next site is 211 units, which is in a mixed area of
Morningside Manor.
Q What census tract is that in?
THE COURT: That's over near Winston Lake?
THE WITNESS: Near Salem Lake, across from Bowman
Gray Stadium. 18.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Is it south of Old oalem or
north of Old Salem?
A It is east of Old Salem.
Q Well, is it north?
A Southeast.
Q Southeast.
A In this area, Mr. Chambers. Blacks have begun to
move into the Morningside area, but if you’ll note on the
map, here when you go out to Waughtown Street and in those
areas, it is totally 100 percent white.
q i thought Morningside was a changing neighborhood.
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A That's what I sayj Momingside is changing, hut
Momingside represents about 200 homes.
Q Changing from white to black?
A Yes.
THE COURT: How can you say it is changing? I
don't understand that. You can see people moving in,
but it can't be known what is going to happen in there,
can it? Well, it is changing from one, we will say,
from all white to mixed. That we all know.
THE WITNESS: Right, sir. The people in Moming
side say they aren't changing, and they're trying to
stabalize the community and efforts have been made to
do that.
q (By Mr. Chambers) That was also done around
North Elementary School, wasn't it?
A I'm not familiar with what has been done. The
65 unit., Vector, near High Point Road going south. Again,
this is a white area. Uo units, Westminister and Rosie
Street; there are whites and blacks in the area. And 1A8
units on Old Lexington Road; there is a mixture - higher
percentage of whites than blacks.
q why aren't there some units on the western side
of the city?
A We have not been able to get land. Land costs
involved, keeping in mind that the Turnkey III is to supply
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homes that are needed for low Income families. After
private enterprise amasses land and comes up with a pro
posal to the Housing Authority, than we contract to acquire
these houses when they are finished.
Q I don't belive you even have a public housing
project on the west side of town, do you?
MR. WOMBLEt Object.
THE COURTi Overruled.
A The twelve units of leased housing is the closest
thing that we might have.
Q And that’s in census tract 9. And I think you
told me that your dividing line here was this street here?
A N o , s i r .
Q Okay.
THE COURT: The point has been made that you
haven't through the Commission, Mr. Andrews, relocated
whites. Now, tell me about relocation. How do you
select areas to redevelop?
THE WITNESS: These areas are selected after the
Planning Board declares an area blighted, substandard.
From that action, then the Planning Board presents to
the Winston-Salem Board of Aldermen its findings.
After this, the Redevelopment Commission Is directed
by the Board of Aldermen to take or to apply for
federal funds to execute an urban renewal project in
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this particular area.
THE COURT* Then when the Planning Board comes up
with the area, you take the people in there and try to
relocate those people and try to find them homes?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: And so far, you say, you haven't
relocated any— there have been no whites in those
areas, Is that right?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.
THE COURT: That'b the reason you haven't relocated
whites?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further, Mr.
Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
a (By Mr. Chambers) Hr. Andrews, haven’t you had
some whites to relocate in the urban renewal area?
A No, sir.
0 Do you recall telling Mr. Womble that you had 53
white families that you found there homes?
A No, sir, I did not. In fact, we have not had
whites in the renewal area. I think again you are referring
to Highway 52 South, where the Highway Department had the
responsibility and they asked us if they could use our
referral list, because we were in the business of talking
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2 Q Didn’t you Just tell me that you relocated the
Negroes who were involved in Highway 52?
A Yes, I said that was in the Highway 52, in the
urban renewal area. That was less than a nils of Highway
52 that went through this area, which I’d like to point ou
to you, hut it was in these areas that you mentioned on
predominantly or all black areas. That ran from 3rd Stree
to Liberty Street, in the urban renewal area.
Q Is that why you relocated them?
A Yes, sir, we had the responsibility.
q Some developments you used yesterday, Northwood
Estates, Cumberland Road, do you remember when Northwood
Estates were built?
A Yes.
q was it built and advertised for Negroes?
A I don’t recall it being advertised for Negroes.
It was built in a Negro area, yes.
Q Wasn’t there an ad run in the newspaper, in the
Winston newspaper?
A Northwood Estates was advertised, but I don't
recall its being advertised for Negroes.
q You don't recall then?
A No, sir.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R S a s s o c i a t e s
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A Yes, sir.
q Was that built and advertised for Negroes?
A That area was built - lots were sold in that area
and individuals built thdr homes, again in a traditionally
Negro area.
Q Were there other areas that you indicated?
Spalding and Winston Lake Estates, were they built and
advertised for certain racial groups?
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT* Overruled.
A I can't testify to their being advertised. They
were built in traditionally Negro areas, yes.
Q That’s been true of white projects that have been
built in the city, too?
A White projects?
q Are you telling the Court, Mr. Andrews, that you
don't recall the developments being built and advertised for
Negroes and you worked as a real estate agent?
A That's correct. Not advertised for blacks, no.
q Were they listed with your real estate agency?
A Yes, sir.
q Were they listed with white agencies?
A I can't testify to that.
q do you know of any white agents that carried
either one of those projects?
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a, a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r .
A S H E D R I V E
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A No.
Do you recall— well, give me some developmentsQ
on the western side of the city.
A There are British Woods, Salem Woods, any number
of them.
Q Do you recall when British Woods was developed?
A Yes, sir.
0 Was it built for whites?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURTi When was British Woods started?
THE WITNESS* Approximately 1954, *55.
THE COURT* Did you have anything to do with it,
were you connected with it?
THE WITNESS* No, sir.
THE COURT* Mr. Chambers, I hardly see how he could
conclude that; unless you lay some background for his
conclusion, I sustain the objection.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) When were you working with the
real estate agency?
A You mean—
Q What years?
A You mean before I went with the Redevelopment
Commission?
Q Yes, before you went with the Redevelopment
Commission?
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A I would say— I came back here in '5^, end '55 Mr*
Johnson died, I think, in '55 or '56.
Q So you worked from '55 to *61, or '56 to '61?
A I worked with Mr. Johnson from '5^» when I
back here, until he died in '56, and I've always worked
with my father.
q During the time that you worked in real estate
with your father and with Mr. Johnson, did you have any
listing of a white home?
A No, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS* I have nothing further.
THE COURT* Mr. Womble?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) During that time, did you try to
get a listing of a white home?
A I did not.
THE COURT* Mr. Womble, will your examination be
protracted?
MR. WOMBLE* There will be a few questions, Your
Honor.
THE COURT* All right, Mr. Andrews, you may come
down for a moment, please.
You may smoke out in the halls, and the 3ury room
is out over here and you may smoke in there, those
connected here, and someone will notify you at about
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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the time we are to come back in, so that you will know
we are about to start. Let's take a short recess•
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT* All right, Mr. Andrews, will you
return to the stand, please sir?
q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Mr. Andrews, Mr. Chambers
asked you about a 1912 ordinance, and you read from that
ordinance a provision to the effect that only white persons
might reside on Fourth Street between Depot Street and the
city limits to the east. Do you recall that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you born?
A I was born on East Fourth Street at the corner
of Linden Street.
q Is that in the area that under the 1912 ordinance
was limited to white persona?
A That's correct.
THE COURTt Do I understand that you ware born
within the area that you say that the ordinance set
out was for residences of white people?
THE WITNESS! Yes, sir.
THE COURT* You were b o m in 1930?
THE WITNESS* That's correct.
q (By Mr. Womble) I show you Plaintiffs* Exhibit 5,
which is a 1930 zone map of the City of Winston-Salem, and
graham erlacher a associates
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direct your attention "to an aros that appears 'to ba-- well,
according to the map, this ia up at the north part of town
and it ia bounded on the north by what street?
A 30th.
Q And then it comes down along the west boundary
along what street?
A This is Oakley there. The name has been changed.
Q Do you know the present name of that street?
A Greenway continues on up there.
Q How many blocks west of Patterson Avenue is Oakley
Street, now Greenway?
A That is Fourth Street over, Bon Air Avenue and
then Greenway.
Q Then the north line of this area takes a right
angle turn to the west along—
A 25th Street.
Q Is that 25th or 27th Street?
A 27th, yes.
Q For approximately how many blocks?
A Approximately three to four blocks.
Q And then coming south it follows what appears to
be a creek, does it?
A That's correct.
Q Down to about what street?
A Down to Burton Street,
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1 Q And then it goes east on Rirton and what other
street?
A Glenn Avenue.
Q And continuing on east in a northeasterly
direction, it goes how far to the east?
A Patterson - let's see now. Again, this was
Acreage Street; that street has changed; I'm not sure if
I can remember.
Q How many blocks east of Patterson Avenue is it?
A One, two, three, four blocks. Four blocks east
of Patterson Avenue.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned
as—
' A A—1 •
i Q
As A-l, which I believe was a white residential
8 district in the ordinance that you read?
' A That's correct.
‘ Q What is the racial composition of that district
9 now?
° A It is predominantly black.
' °
Now, I show you an area in the northeastern part
a of this map that is bounded on the north by about what
15 street?
14 * 26th Street.
“ Q
And generally on the west by what street, or Just
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r * a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r *
A S H E D R I V K
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1193
a little bit east?
A Liberty Street.
Q Just a bit east of Liberty Street, is it?
A That's correct.
Q And it goes down how far south?
A It goes down to 16th Street.
Q And then on the east, it goes—
A This is a creek, and presently that's called
Bowen Boulevard.
Q What is that?
A That is Manchester Street.
Q Is that still known as Manchester Street?
A Yes, it still is.
Q That's more or less the eastern border of that
area, isn't it?
A That's correct.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned
for what kind of residential use?
A That was A-l residential.
Q Which according to the ordinance you read would be
restricted to which race?
A To the white race.
Q What is the racial composition of that area now?
A It is black.
Q I now direct your attention to an area in the
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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-11
central eaetern portion of this map which is bounded
generally on the north by what street?
A 7th Street.
Q And on the west by what street?
A Highland Avenue.
Q And on the south by what street?
A Generally Belews and East First Streets.
Q And on the east?
A By Brushy Fork Creek,
Q Which at that time was the eastern corporate
limits of the city, was it?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, according to this map, that area was zoned
for occupancy by persons of what race?
A The white race.
Q What is the racial composition of that area today?
A It is black today.
Q I direct your attention to a relatively small area
lying east and southeast of Salem Cemetery on this map,
bounded on the west by what is that street?
A It says Park Avenue; it is now Cemetery Street.
Q Cemetery or Salem Avenue?
A Salem Avenue runs all the way around (indicating
on map).
Q What was that area immediately on the east side of
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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then Park Avenue and now Salem Avenue, east of Salem Cemetery
What was that then zoned for?
A That was A-l, or all white.
Q What is the situation in that area today?
A You have had some industries move in this area.
There are some blacks in rental units here; these houses
were on the east side of Salem Avenue, they’re white.
Q Now, I direct your attention to an area that is
immediately south of Salem Water Works on this map, and
east of Claremont Avenue. In that area is Claremont Avenue
still known as Claremont Avenue?
A No, it's known as Stadium Drive in this area.
Q And east of Stadium Drive over to the corporate
limits when this area was zoned for residence by what?
A A—1 or for the white race according to this map.
Q What is the racial composition of that area now?
A It is a mixed area.
Q By "mixed", you mean black and white?
A That's right.
Q Now, the limit of this map on the north is
generally—
A 25th Street, in that area*'
Q Where is 25th Street today with reference to the
northern boundary of the corporate limits of the City of
Winston-Salem?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A It 1b several miles away.
Q You mean— *
A I can point out on this map. The area we were
referring to, 25th Street shown on this map, that is
roughly in this area, it is generally here. And of course
you can see the boundary up here.
Q In other words, the corporate limits have extended
now - let’s see, using the scale of that map, approximately
how far north?
A One inch equals one-half mile, so we take this
point right here - like I said, roughly two miles.
Q Have the corporate limits of the City of Winston-
Salem extended east and west and south also sinoe then?
A It has.
THE COURT: What is the map exhibit number you
have there again, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: This particular one, Your Honor, is
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5.
Q (By Mr. Womble) At the time the Housing Authority
projects - Happy Hill Gardens and the others - were built,
what was the purpose of the projects with respect to
residential housing?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
Q (By Mr. Womble) In other words, was it to simply
tear down the slum housing and provide better housing for
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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people In those areas, or was it some other purpose?
THE COURT* Overruled.
A The purpose of the public housing was slum
clearance and to provide housing for low Income families*
Q Was its purpose to affect the residential com
plexion of any neighborhood one way or the other as far as
race was concerned?
MR. CHAMBERS* Objection.
THE COURT* Are you familiar with the purpose of
it, Mr. Andrews?
THE WITNESSl I'm familiar with the Housing Act
of 1937.
MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, may I inquire whether
he has been given an instruction of the Act itself,
which would be a conclusion of law? We will stipulate
to what the Act—
MR. WQMBLEt Let's get what the result was.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead, move on.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Answer the question.
A The construction of public housing was to provide
housing for low income families and as a slum clearance
effort at the same time.
Q Were the residents of the slum housing the same
residents of the public housing when it was completed?
A Yes, sir.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't know what he
said, the residents of the slum housing the same ones
as the public housing. What time are we talking about
and what area?
THE COURT: I don't know either, Mr. Chambers.
MR. WOMBLE: I'm talking about the race of the
persons who were residing in the substandard or slum
houses that were cleared and the raoe of the persons
who were moved into the public housing when the public
housing was contructed at the clearance of the sub
standard or slum area s , slum houses.
A This is true with the exception of Piedmont Park,
Q (By Mr. Womble) What was the situation there?
A That was in an area that was testified previously
that was in the A-l area, which was all white.
Q The persons who originally moved into that housing
were of what race?
A Were all white.
Q But now it is predominantly black?
A Yes, sir.
Q But it is mixed?
A Yes.
Q Does the Housing Authority undertake to find
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residences for persons without an application for housing?
A No, sir. People must make application to public
housing, the various agencies. Social agencies refer
people to the Housing Authority to be housed.
Q So all of those for whom you have found hmn»in£
have been people who have applied for housing?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you testified that the Redevelopment
Commission had not used the multiple listing service in
obtaining listings for your use in connection with the
relocation of persons. Why did you not utilize that service?
A Mainly the multiple listing service, as I under
stood it at the time and do now, dealt with houses that
were in a financial range which was above the people who
were being displaced in this urban renewal area. Families
with incomes of less than $3,000.00 a year were 49 percent
of the people in this blighted area. There would be no
point in getting multiple listings to show them $40,000.00
homes or rental houses that rented for $200.00 a month.
Q And where were the listings? Well, I believe
you've already stated the sources of your listings, and
they cover the whole community, is that correct?
A That’s correct,
MR. WOMBLEi I think that’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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MR. VANORE: No questions.
MR. PRICE* No questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers?
RECROSS EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Chambers) I think you testified yesterday
that of the 1615 people you relocated, 177 purchased homes?
A Yes, sir.
0 Where were those homes?
A Mr. Chambers, they were in these areas that I
furnished you with the vidnitiea. They are all involved in
those areas.
Q What price ranges were they?
A From seven to possibly twenty. Northwood
Q Some of them moved into Northwood Estates?
A Yes, sir.
q I think you testified that those prices ran from
$10,000.00, $15*000.00, $20,000.00?
A Yes, sir, some of them are a little higher.
q I believe the prices in those ranges are carried
in multiple listing even here in Winston-Salem?
A Yes.
q According to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5, In your opinior
would 90 percent of the white residential areas be on the
west side of the city?
MR. WCMBLEl Object.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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THE COURT: Overruled.
A West and southwest.
q Would approximately 90 percent of the Negro
residential areas be on the east side of town?
A Yes, sir.
q According to your opinion, would 90 peroent of
the Negroes today be on the east side of town in the City
of Winston?
MR. WOMBLE: I think that's what I understood him
to ask him before.
MR. CHAMBERS: This is Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 5.
MR. WOMBLE: He said where they lived.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: If you don't understand the question,
you may ask him to clarify it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) In your opinion, would 90 per
cent of the Negroes today In the City of Winston be living
on the east side of town?
A Yes, sir.
q in your opinion, would 90 percent of the whites
in the City of Winston be living on the west side of town?
A West and southwest, yes.
0 Basically the same as the Exhibit 5 shows there?
A No.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
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Q I'm talking in terms of the sections of the city,
est and east. I’m talking about percentages. Would 90
ercent of the whites, according to this exhibit, be in the
est side of the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that’s basically the same today?
A Yea.
q Not in the same areas, but west of the city?
A Right.
Q And 90 percent of the Negroes, according to this
nap, would be on the east side of the city?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
EXAMINATION BY THE COURT
a On your multiple listing, Mr. Andrews, maybe I hav
overlooked something in your testimony, was your decision
not to get that multiple listing?
A Right. This was my decision, and the surveys
that I mentioned yesterday, and we knew the people that we
were dealing with, what their incomes were, and It was my
decision to make an all-out effort to get housing units
that they could afford, plus their choice.
q No one has denied you of the multiple listing?
A No, sir.
Q When we talk about a multiple listing, I can just
G R A H A M e r l a c h e r a A S S O C I A T E S
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iee a sheet of paper with many houses on it. Is that what
.t is?
A That’s correot.
Q And. that you can get from all realtors who are
lembers of the realty board, or whatever organization it is?
A Right.
Q As I understand you, it was your Judgment that
fou not get those?
A Right. I have— in some instances some of the
real estate people have pulled from their multiple — from
their real estate books structures that were sent to them
as part of the multiple listing service. This is Just a
little more extensive than Just a listing! however, we have
pictures of the structure and the type of heat it uses, and
it goes into some extent.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, may I follow up on
that?
THE COURT: Yes.
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Chambers) Didn't you testify a moment
ago that a man had to be a member of multiple listing in
order to get it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are not a member?
A I am not a member. I testified that I could go to
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
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real estate people that I am dealing with who are members
of the multiple listing service, and from his book I might
get one of the structures that he has there.
Q You don't get the multiple listing?
A I don't get the multiple listing.
Q No one gets it unless he is a member of the
multiple listing system here in Winston?
A That's right.
Q And presently only white real estate members are
members of that system?
A Right.
Q Do you know whether the multiple listing in
Winston-Salem is carried according to race?
A I couldn't answer it.
0 Isn't it a fact, Mr. Andrews, that it is carried
for— that there are separate books for white and the Negro
homes?
A No, sir, that's not the fact. I have 3ust had a
recent experience of a black man who bought a house from the
multiple listing service that many of us might know.
Q I'm asking you don't you have two separate books?
A I can't answer that, Mr. Chambers; I don't know
Q You don't recall?
A No, sir. I don't know.
THE COURT: I realize that you have had experience
g r a h a m e r l a c h e b a a s s o c i a t e s
O p m i i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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in the real estate business, but you are not a realtor?
THE WITNESS! I am not, right.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) There are some Negro realtors
in Winston-Salem?
A One who is active at the present time.
Q And you worked with a Negro realtor, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: Nothing further.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Womble) You also work with white realtors,
don't you?
A That's correct.
Q And through them you can get any listing of
houses that they have on multiple listing that you might be
interested in, is that correct?
A That is true.
Q Mr. Andrews, as of 1930, what percentage of the
white population of the community, according to this map,
would you say was in the eastern half of the city? Would it
bo as much as 90 percent as of 1930?
A Not according to this map, it would not be. It
is hard for me really to pinpoint the percentage here, but
a quick glance would indicate that perhaps AO percent of
the whites lived in this eastern part, from this map, and
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
OFEIC IA L COURT REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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have 60 percent in the west.
Q In 1930?
A From that map.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. VANORE: No questions.
MR. PRICE: No questions.
MR. CHAMBERS: No questions.
THE COURT: All right; you may come down, Mr.
Andrews.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble?
Mil. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I would like first to
put into evidence the State Board of Education answer
to plaintiffs' interrogatory number 8, including that
part of the answer that shows the requirements for
graduation from high school.
CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' Exhibit
No. 40.
THE COURT: Are you familiar with thiB, Mr.
Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir, it's already one of our
exhibits.
THE COURT: And that's which exhibit number?
CLERK IDOL: 40.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Defendant
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i i t a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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SchOOl Board Exhibit No. 40 is received into the
evidence.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. AO
for identification and was received
in evidence.)
MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to recall Mr. Ward to the
stand, Your Honor, but may we excuse Mr. Andrews?
MR. CHAMBERS: We have no objection.
THE COURT: All right; thank you, Mr. Andrews.
HEREUPON:
MARVIN M. WARD
laving been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as followsi
DIRECT EXAMINATION
a (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I show you Defendants'
Exhibit 41 and ask you what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 41
for identification.)
A This exhibit Bhows the new faculty ratios as
existed yesterday in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School
System.
q I believe you previously testified through
Defendants' Exhibit 3 and oral testimony concerning It that
as of the beginning of the 1969-70 school year, there were
approximately 296 teachers teaching across racial lines, 1:
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
P H O N E : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
that correct?
A Thct is correct.
q When did the Board of Education of the Vinston-
Salem/Forsyth County School System request you to make a
change in the faculty ratio?
A i Believe on December the 26th, the School Board
asked us to develop a plan for the new faculty ratios, and
I believe the School Board ordered it done on January 14th,
to become effective at the end of the first semester.
0 Explain what your criteria were and what was done
to effect the changes that have resulted in the new faculty
ratio?
A After the School Board made their decision on the
26th, an advisory committee composed of eight teachers
representing professional organizations, four principals,
three Board members, and two instructional staff members,
worked to formulate plans and policies for this exchange,
and the decisions made by this group Included devising a
plan for random number selection for the Identification of
the people to be reassigned, to make it as Impartial as
possible. Then that the necessary assistance would be
given to the personnel department by our research depart
ment to make this change in a rapid fashion and do it
effectively, and that the selection and the reassignment of
teachers would attempt to balance faculties as nearly as
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8, A S S O C I A T E S
OFFI C IAL C O U R T REPORTERS
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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isslble from an experience basis, but It would be done with
random number selection. Then it eliminated certain
roups of people from the reassignment. The first stipula-
Lon was that teachers who would be sixty-five years of age
y July 1st, 1971 would be eliminated) all of the school
rlncipals and all of the assistant principals approved by
he School Board) the teachers of special education and
entally retarded - both are retainable - and hearing handi-
ap, speech handicap, vision handicap, and emotionally dis-
;urbed would not be included. The one teacher of a ten-
lonth experimental program, the teachers who were already
reaching across racial lines, the teachers assigned in a
lontlnuing education program, and the teachers assigned to
Central Rehabilitation Center, and the four teachers
assigned to the trade center. That teachers in public school
music, choral music, instrumental music, and librarians who
are not presently crossing racial lines would be included in
a music and library pool for a random number selection for
reassignment. And the other provision was that each school
principal might select twenty percent of his original
faculty for the purpose of retaining a core of personnel
who would assist in maintaining a sound educational program,
tnd that the personnel department, if there were unusual
racancies that they could not fill otherwise, might select
>ven from this twenty percent core. And these are the
g r a h a m E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i i i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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1 regulations by which it was done.
q How long did it take the staff to work this out?
A Approximately two weeks.
0 And then after the details were worked out and
the assignments were developed, what procedure was followed
from then until the new assignments became effective yester
day?
A A number of teachers appealed to the School Bear’d
from this assignment, and over a period of several days
the School Board heard the appeals and made decisions on
which ones should not be reassigned.
q Let’s see. How many total faculty is there?
A Roughly 2,100.
0 Now, the tabulation on this exhibit, does it
include the Children's Center?
A I believe the Children's Center was eliminated
from this, along with the Central Rehabilitation Center.
The teachers there were eliminated.
Q What would be the reason for not having them in
this list?
A There were no teachers in either group who could
be matched with others that might be exchanged, who were
doing or teaching a similar program.
q What kind of children are the teachers teaching
at the Children’s Center?
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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A T h e y a r e p h y s i c a l l y h a n d ic a p p e d g e n e r a l l y .
u I s t h a t s c h o o l a c t u a l l y o p e r a t e d b y t h e S c h o o l
S y s t e m ?
A I t i s n o t o p e r a t e d b y t h e S c h o o l S y s t e m . V/e
m e r e l y p r o v i d e - I b e l i e v e i t i s f o u r t e a c h e r s t o a s s i s t
th e m i n t h e e d u c a t i o n a l p h a s e o f t h e i r p r o g r a m .
0. W ith r e s p e c t t o C e n t r a l S c h o o l , w h a t k i n d o f
s c h o o l i s t h a t ?
A C e n t r a l S c h o o l i s f o r — i t ' s a s p e c i a l e d u c a t i o n
p r o g r a m g e n e r a l l y f o r h a n d ic a p p e d c h i l d r e n a t t h e J u n i o r
a n d s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l l e v e l , p r i m a r i l y t h e s e n i o r h i g h
s c h o o l l e v e l .
THE COURT: I ’ m s u r e i t ’ s i n a l l o f t h i s e v i d e n c e
s o m e w h e r e , M r. W ard , b u t t h e C h i l d r e n ’ s C e n t e r , w h e r e
i s t h a t p h y s i c a l l y l o c a t e d ?
THE W ITNESS: A t C o l i s e u m D r i v e a n d R e y n o ld a
H o a d .
THE COURT: And w h e r e i s C e n t r a l S c h o o l ?
THE W ITNESS: A t R a c e a n d C h u r c h S t r e e t , d ow n i n
O ld S a le m .
G (B y M r. W om b le) M r. W ard , I d i r e c t y o u r a t t e n t i o n
t o D e f e n d a n t s ’ E x h i b i t 2 6 . W hat i s t h e r a c i a l m ix o r m ak eu p
o f t h e f a c u l t y a t C e n t r a l S c h o o l ?
A A t C e n t r a l t h e r e a r e 1 3 N e g r o , 2 2 w h i t e s , f o r a
t o t a l o f 3 5 .
G R A H A M E B L A C H E R 8. A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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Q Is that the way it has been all this school year
at that particular school?
A Yes, it is.
Q And it was not involved in this assignment of
teachers during the past month then?
A No, it was not.
Q How many teachers approximately were reassigned
as of the beginning of the second semester of the current
school year, yesterday?
A Approximately 425.
Q Now, with respect to elementary schools, what is
the - strike that. Does this exhibit of faculty ratios
include both principals and teachers?
A Yes, it does.
Q What is the ratio of white end black faculty in
the elementary schools of the system?
A It is approximately 30 percent - shown here, it
would be 29.98 black and 70.02 white.
Q That is not taking into account the teachers
assigned to the Children’s Home?
A That’s right. That would change this and make it
29.83 Negro and 70.17 white.
Q What is the range within which the black faculty
ratio ranges under the new faculty assignments?
A At a quick glance, it appears the low would be
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l c o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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16.67 at Children's Home and I believe the high is 36.84 at
Mebane.
Q At North Elementary?
A 30.46 at North Elementary; it's a little higher.
I believe that's the highest.
Q Do you recall any particular circumstance affecting
the ratio at the Children's Home?
A I believe we had originally moved a third black
person there, but we had a resignation, I believe, that
created a problem at Children's Home and caused that low
ratio. I believe that was the situation.
Q What is the faculty ratio as between white and
black in the Junior and senior high schools of the System?
A 26.20 black and 73.60 white.
Q Now, the Junior high school level, excluding
combination schools such as Anderson, Carver and Mount Tabor,
what is the range within which the assignment of black
facility to Junior highs is?
A I believe the low is 19.44 and the high of 33.33.
G Now, what is the range at the senior high school
level?
A A low of 14.49 and a high of 31.25.
Q Now, with respect to Anderson and Carver, what are
your percentages there?
A 40 at Anderson and 45.83 at Carver.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8« A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P H O N E : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Q flow d o e s i t h a p p e n t h a t t h o s e a r e b o t h c o n s i d e r a b l y
h i g h e r t h a n t h e o t h e r s ?
A T h e r e a r e tw o o r t h r e e p r o b l e m s . T h e s e s c h o o l s
a r e c o m b i n a t i o n s c h o o l s , s e v e n t h r o u g h t w e l v e ; t h e s c h o o l s
a r e r e l a t i v e l y s m a l l , w h ic h c a u s e s a t e a c h e r t o h a v e a
l i t t l e b i t w i d e r r a n g e s o m e t im e s o f s u b j e c t a r e a s i n w h ic h
s h e t e a c h e s . A l s o t h e r e w a s a g r e a t e r p r o b le m f r o m t h e
s t a n d p o i n t o f t h e p r i n c i p a l i n m a i n t a i n i n g e n o u g h c o r e
t e a c h e r s t o r e t a i n s t a b i l i t y i n t h e s c h o o l . And i n a d d i
t i o n t o t h a t , 1 b e l i e v e w e m ay h a v e h a d o n e o r tw o t e a c h e r s
w h o a p p e a l e d n o t t o b e r e a s s i g n e d f o r r e a s o n s t h a t t h e
S c h o o l B o a r d f e l t w e r e w a r r a n t e d , a n d t h i s h a s m ade t h e
d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e s e tw o s c h o o l s a n d c a u s e d t h e i r p e r c e n t a g e s
t o b e l a r g e r .
Q A p p r o x im a t e l y how m any a p p e a l s w e r e t h e r e ?
A I n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d o f f i f t y ; I d o n ' t k n ow t h e
e x a c t n u m b e r .
Q A p p r o x im a t e l y how m any o f t h e a p p e a l s w e r e g r a n t e d
o r a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d ?
A I d o n o t k n ow t h e e x a c t n u m b e r . I w o u ld s a y
s o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n t e n a n d f i f t e e n .
0 W hen d i d y o u s a y t h e s e n e w a s s i g n m e n t s w e r e p u t
i n t o e f f e c t ?
A On M onday m o r n in g o f t h i s w e e k .
u N ow , M r. W ard , r e f e r r i n g n ow t o t h e a p p r o a c h t o
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8c A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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changes in "the assignments of pupils testified to by Dr.
Larsen last Friday, does the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
School System have transportation within the city to the
schools?
A Only in the portion of the city which was not a
part of the city in 1957, which was outside of the corporate
limits in 1957.
0 Is that in accordance with the state plan of
providing transportation?
A Yes, it is.
Q Did the City School Board, prior to consolidation,
provide any transportation to schools within the city?
A No, it did not.
Q And since consolidation, has there been any
provision for transportation to any of the schools that
were formerly in the old city system?
A Transportation has not been provided for pupils
on any different basis than it was prior to that time.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Womble, getting back to Mr.
Ward, we talk about a semester break and so forth.
What date is the dividing line in your system here for
the pupils? Was it last Monday?
THE WITNESS: Tuesday, January the 27th was the
first day of the new semester for our students in this
system.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O F F I C IA L C O U R T R l P O R T l R S
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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THE COURTi Which was the day— last Tuesday?
THE WITNESS: That was yesterday.
THE COURT: Yesterday?
THE WITNESS: Yes. When I referred to Monday
morning, our teachers worked in their new situations
on Monday morning without students, on the 26th, and
on the 27th - yesterday - our students were there,
and that was I believe the first day of the second
semester for students.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen suggested the grouping
of Kimberly Park, Carver Crest, and Lowrance, with Speas,
Whitaker, Sherwood Forest, Moore, Brunson and Ardmore. Are
there any of those schools to which transportation is
provided?
A Transportation is provided to students under the
state plan at Speas and Sherwood Forest.
Q Are they in areas that were outside the corporate
limits in 1957?
A That is correct.
Q Now, with the possible exceptions of Speas and
Sherwood Forest and students living in the areas outside
the corporate limits as of 1957, if Kimberly Park and Carver
Crest and Lowrance were grouped with Whitaker and Moore and
Brunson and Ardmore, so that children who are now attending
Carver Crest or Kimberly or Lowrance would be assigned to
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C
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Whitaker or Moore or Ardmore or Brunson, and vice versa,
children assigned to Ardmore, Brunaon or Whitaker should be
assigned to Carver Crest, Kimberly Park or Lowrance, would
there be any transportation available for those pupils
other than private transportation?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Why is that objectionable, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: If he is asking whether the State
Board of Education would provide transportation under
the present plan, that’s one thing. I don't know of
any provision that would prohibit the local Board from
providing transportation.
THE COURT: Well, the case before us sayB they
can’t inside the city limits since this '57* '59 date.
All right. Put it more specific there. That's the
thing that is bothering me about this situation.
MR. CHAMBERS: The only thing I’m suggesting, Your
Honor, is that the State Board said that it will not
provide transportation! I'm suggesting to the Court
that there is nothing that prohibits the Board from
providing transportation within the city. And if the
question is whether the State would presently provide
that transportation under the present rules, I would
have no objection. But his question is would there be
any transportation.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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THE COURT; All right. Rephrase your question.
Q (By Mr. Womfcle) Would the State provide any
ransportation under the present State law and appropriations
:or children attending any of those schools that I have
just mentioned?
A Only the ones now who receive transportation;
none other.
Q Well, which ones are the ones who now receive
transportation?
A Speas and Sherwood Forest.
G And none of them receive transportation into any
of the others, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And none would receive transportation under the
present State law and appropriations?
A That's right.
q Does the City-County Board of Education have any
provision for transportation other than as provided under
State law?
A No, it does not.
0 Does it have any buses or appropriations for
operating buses other than in accordance with State law?
A No, it does not.
Q What is the cost of a bus, Mr. Ward, a school bus?
A The average cost is somewhere between five and
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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s i x t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s p e r b u s ,
Q W hat i s t h e c o s t o f o p e r a t i n g a s c h o o l b u s p e r
p u p i l p e r y e a r ?
A T h e s t a t e a v e r a g e i s a b o u t $ 1 7 . 5 0 ,
Q H a v e y o u m ad e so m e r o u g h c a l c u l a t i o n s a s t o w h a t
i t w o u ld c o s t t o p r o v i d e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a t t h e e l e m e n t a r y
s c h o o l l e v e l u n d e r D r . L a r s e n ' s a p p r o a c h ?
A Y e s , I h a v e . I d i d i t n o t J u s t i n t h e a r e a t h a t
y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d t h e r e , b u t i n a l l t h e a r e a s t h a t h e
s u g g e s t e d .
THE COURT: He h a d a b o u t f o u r a r e a s , a s I r e c a l l .
THE W ITNESS: I b e l i e v e i t w a s f i v e .
THE COURT: F i v e , y e s . A l l r i g h t . Y o u ’ r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t a l l o f th e m ?
THE W ITNESS: I ’m t a l k i n g a b o u t a l l o f t h e m .
A And i n d e t e r m i n i n g t h e c o s t , w e a s s u m e d t h a t
t h e r e w o u ld b e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r t h e s t u d e n t s i n t h e
d i s t r i c t s t h a t n o w h a v e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , s u c h a s S h e r w o o d
F o r e s t a n d S p e a s , a n d d e t e r m i n e d t h e c o s t b a s e d o n t h e o o s t
f o r t h i s s c h o o l s y s t e m — w h ic h i s n o t $ 1 7 . 5 0 b u t i t i s
r o u g h l y a b o u t $ 4 . 0 0 h i g h e r , a b o u t $ 2 1 . 5 0 , b e c a u s e w e u s e a
t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s y s t e m t h a t t a k e s t h e e l e m e n t a r y s t u d e n t s
hom e f i r s t a n d t h e J u n i o r a n d s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l s t u d e n t s
h om e a b o u t f o r t y - f i v e m i n u t e s l a t e r . And w i t h t h a t p r o c e s s ,
t h e l o c a l B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n p a y s t h e a d d i t i o n a l c o s t t o
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
PHONE: 765 0636
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make this possible. And using the cost of this school
system - assuming that we had to transport all the other
students thet do not now have transportation - it would
take—
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to that as
being highly speculative and not responsive to the
question.
THE COURT: Overruled; go ahead. I realize cost
isn't a factor in considering rights of people, but
it is a factor in this case on a preliminary injunction
because it is important because they've got to get it
and how much someway, and I wouldn't know what that is.
Go ahead.
A Taking the number of children that would be
affected in Dr. Larsen's total plan at the elementary school,
the total number of children who would be affected who do
not now have transportation, would be a little over 8,000,
and at our cost it would take approximately $187,000.00 to
do it, if you assume that every one of these children had
to be transported. If you assume that one-third of them
would not have to be transported, because one-third might -
in the mix that he was proposing, one-third might be able
to remain in the district to which they are now attending,
then the cost to this school system would be about $125,000.
which would be two-thirds of the total cost that I gave you,
g r a h a m e r l a c h e h a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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, 0 0 0 . 0 0 . N ow , i f w e h a d t o b u y b u s e s t o d o i t w i t h ,
i t w o u ld t a k e a p p r o x i m a t e l y e i g h t y - t h r e e b u s e s o f t h e s i z e
t h a t w e n o r m a l l y u s e , a n d t h e s e b u s e s c o s t a p p r o x i m a t e l y
$ 5 , 5 0 0 . 0 0 , w h ic h m e a n s t o b u y e n o u g h b u s e s t o t r a n s p o r t
a l l o f t h e s t u d e n t s w o u ld t a k e a b o u t $ 4 5 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 , a n d t w o -
t h i r d s o f t h a t w o u ld b e a b o u t $ 3 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 , t o b u y t h e
n e c e s s a r y b u s e s t o p u t t h i s s y s t e m i n t o e f f e c t . S o t h e
t o t a l c o s t o f t h i s s c h o o l s y s t e m a t t h i s t i m e w o u ld b e
a p p r o x i m a t e l y $ 3 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 f o r p u r c h a s e o f b u s e s , a n d a b o u t
$ 1 2 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 t o p a y f o r t h e c o s t o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a f t e r w e
o b t a i n t h e b u s e s .
Q Was D r . L a r s e n ' s a p p r o a c h s u f f i c i e n t l y d e f i n i t e
w i t h r e s p e c t t o s e n i o r a n d J u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l s t o e n a b l e y o u
t o m ak e a n y c a l c u l a t i o n s a s t o t r a n s p o r t a t i o n c o s t s , a d d i
t i o n a l t r a n s p o r t a t i o n c o s t s , t h a t w o u ld b e i n v o l v e d i n o r d e r
t o p r o v i d e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r J u n i o r a n d s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l
s t u d e n t s ?
A He d i d n o t g i v e a n y i n d i c a t i o n o f w h a t h i s p l a n
w o u ld b e i n r e l a t i o n t o J u n i o r a n d s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l s . He
s i m p l y s p e l l e d o u t , I b e l i e v e , f o u r h i g h s c h o o l d i s t r i c t s
b u t d i d n o t g i v e a n y i n d i c a t i o n o f w h a t t h e f e e d e r p l a n
w o u ld b e e i t h e r a t t h e J u n i o r o r s e n i o r h i g h l e v e l .
Q S o t h e f i g u r e s y o u h a v e g i v e n r e l a t e o n l y t o t h e
s t u d e n t s a t o n e l e v e l ?
A O n ly t o t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l , a n d o n l y i n t h e
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
O r n c i A L C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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ilstrlcts which he indicated that change would occur.
0 How do you purchase school buses?
A The State of North Carolina estimates the need
for a future year and bids school bus chassis from companies
that provide them and bids the school bus bodies from
companies who provide them, and I believe contracts for the
estimated number that would be needed during any school
year, and then they are bought as needed from that contract.
Q How long does it take to get school buses after
an order is placed for them?
MR. CHAMBERSi Objection.
THE COURT: If you know or have an opinion, you
may answer* if you do not, why, of course it wouldn’t
be proper for you to answer.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it varies at different
times during the year, depending upon the demand for
buses. Sometimes it takes several months; at other
times they can be obtained in a shorter span of time.
THE COURT: Some people say that you have got a
stock of them over here and you are Just fixing to do
that. What are those buses for?
THE WITNESS: Those are not our buses. Any buses
there belong to the State of North Carolina. This is
simply a distributing point for buses for other school
systems, and we have allowed them to use our school bus
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8, A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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parking lot for that purpose.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Are there presently any over
lapped school bus routes in the school system?
A No, they’re not, with the exception of the
special transportation to the Central and other special
education programs.
Q But as far as the regular school program, taking
those children to school who get transportation under state
policy, are there any—
A No, there are not.
Q Any overlapping school bus routes?
A No, there are not.
Q what are some of the other practical difficulties
that would be - strike that. Even if you had transportation
available, buses available and money for operation of buses,
could you by reference to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 29 illustrate
the kinds of practical difficulties that would be involved
in assigning bus drivers and working out routes and addi
tional expense that might be involved in connection with
the operation of buses to transfer students, say, from the
Skyland area to Sedge Garden, or from Sedge Garden back to
the Skyland area?
MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, object.
THE COURTi Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS* May I say something? This whole
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8, A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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discussion about transporting kid3 back and forth, or
where or from where, haB absolutely nothing - no rele
vance; he doesn't even know where the kids will be
assigned if they follow what Dr. Larsen has suggested.
And the major point here is that regardless of whether
the Larsen plan is followed or some other plan, the
fact that the Court finds that this is a segregated
school system, something has to be done immediately,
and all of this discussion, I submit to the Court, is
highly irrelevant. And further I call the Court’s
attention to the comparing opinion in Carter vs.
Feliciana Parish, since the Court mentioned the pre
liminary injunction at the outside limits, from the
beginning of the lawsuit until the time that the case
had been fully reviewed by the Court of Appeals,
should be known within eight weeks. So I don't think
that the testimony now as to how far the kids would
be transported or other difficulties that might be
involved has any relevancy at all.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I recognize in reading
the decisions - and I believe this Board recognizes
whether it is liked or not, there is going to have to
be more mixing of the races here; that I know; and
already, from looking at this - and even if I didn't
order it, I feel like that it will be done anyway. I
graham erlacher a associates
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
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don't disagree with more mixing necessarily, but I
do know this, that we have got to exercise some Judgment
in these matters. Now, I can’t believe that the
Supreme Court in that rule, and I can't believe that
our Fourth Circuit has told the District Court Judges
Just to do away with any Judgment whatsoever on the
practicalities of these matters. I hope that that is
not true. 1 have always found you an extremely
reasonable person, and I admire you very much. Much
of what is said in this lawsuit by the plaintiffs is
correct, as we know the law today. But there must be
some Judgment exercised about these things.
Now, if we have got a racial mix - even Dr. Larsen
says some of these schools in his Judgment must end up
all white or all black, and he stated the number of
those schools. Now, I don't know how much mix is
required. This School Board has gone along here
through '68 - maybe it is not as fast as they should
have Justly and properly, but they have complied with
HEW and the others, and I am not lecturing anybody
about this, but there is a reasonable factor that if
the whites are going to be brothers, they’ve got to
extend their hand, and if the blacks are going to be
brothers, they've got to extend their hand. And I
told this School Board to mix these people and come
g r a h a m E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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up with a plan; they have no money; they have no buses H
eight weeks or what not - I can’t be unreasonable, and
I don’t think I should be asked to be unreasonable.
Now, when I study these facts, it could be that
Mr. Ward has got some contingency money or he can get
some money somewhere and that we can effect more mixing
this year, but these matters are important - they are
important to me - to know how this is going to be done
in the eight weeks, and I realize what you say is true;
that is what the courts have said, and that might be
what has to be done and it might have to be done here.
I don’t anticipate - with Mr. Ward and the School Board I
any trouble over this matter. I want to be reasonable
about it; I believe and hope you do. But whatever has
to be done, I will expect the School Board to comply
with my orders, even though they might not be too
palatable. But I don't know why— I Just felt the
need to make some expression. I want to hear about
what will be required if we must have more mixing this
year. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) You might just come over here to
the exhibit, if you will, and explain.
A If we take one instance, Your Honor, to just
illustrate some of the problsms that may occur in connection
with this, in addition to cost. Time will be a factor, and
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R IV E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
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the drivers of buses, if we had them available, would be a
factor, because of the location, the manner of transportatioxi
and so forth. For instance, in the Sedge Garden community,
and using Dr. Larsen’s proposal of the proximity to the
school and race as the two factors that ought to be used in
mixing, for instance Skyland, Petree and Sedge Garden, you
have some difficulty, because these two things are not
compatible. You either have to use one or the other, and
if you assume that the students who would attend Sedge
Garden - the portion of them there would be the ones nearest
the school and at this end of the district - you would have
the problem of these students, for instance in this district,
by time, distance and so forth, are closer to three other
elementary schools than they are to Skyland in his proposal.
And for students in this general area to travel to Skyland
School, they would have to follow this pattern to get to
the Skyland School or else they would have to go back to
this point and start in this direction, taking these students
to Skyland School, and at that point the bus driver would
still need to wind up over ultimately at East High School,
because he is a student driver. This is Just an illustra
tion of what will happen or of what can happen in any one
of the districts that are involved. You have Junior high
school students here, you have senior high school students
here, you have these students. Now, it has not been
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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determined in any of these districts which pupils would be
transported, but we have many difficulties in each situation
If you had the buses and you had them available, you still
have the difficulty of high school students being able to
take the time, morning and afternoon, and that would add
also a cost factor which I didn't mention, because you
might add an hour a day to the time of transportation in
each of these situations. And as you attempt to transport
in more thickly populated areas, the time factor becomes
even larger.
THE COURT: But giving transportation, you could
effect a mix in the area there?
THE WITNESS: It could be done. It would be done
with substantial difficulty and with considerably moire
Inconvenience in terms of time and distance in the
process of doing it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Would that then involve - to do
that, as far as children going to school are concerned, if
transportation could be provided and you were sending
children from the western end of the Sedge Garden district
into Skyland, the racial composition of that group going
into Skyland would be what?
A The group would be white going into Skyland.
Q And the group on the bus from right around Skyland
going out to Sedge Garden would be of what race?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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A It would be black. And the same thing would be
true with Petree and from Petree.
THE COURT! Well, Mr. Ward, we can't Juat take
Dr. Larsen's testimony. I realize that the plaintiffs
can't get often local people to come in and tell about
the education systemj that puts them at some dis
advantage. Now, for that area, if the Court - and as
I have said, it is my opinion that there has got to be
more mixing in the schools by law - do you have any
suggestion now, if I enter some order that you have
got to do it I believe you will try it. Do you have
any suggestion about that that would be helpful to me,
or put any light on it as to how we might do it in a
better fashion and accomplish the mixing than Dr. Lar
sen has suggested?
THE WITNESS! Not at this time, Your Honor. I
think it would need to be determined, there would have
to be certain guidelines under which it would have to
be determined before you could develop a plan for this
or any other school system. Given guidelines in which
to work. I feel like a plan for further desegregation
of the school system would and could be developed,
but you would have certain limitations. For instance,
transportation is a limitation, and if you ask that
this be done, I think we would have to determine what
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
T C K n c i c
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would be available in terms of transportation before
you would know what you could do. You would have to
know to some degree what racial mix you were trying to
achieve. Given these things, I believe that we could
work out a plan.
THE COURT: Well, now, you realize, you know the
time is here, and we don't have whatever - fifteen more
years to do it in, and again I don't want anyone to
think that I am lecturing them about this matter, but
I have been here this number of days and I've heard all
this and I know it is a matter of concern to black
parents, black children, black faculty members, white
parents, the pupils, and so forth, and it's culminated
and I'm glad to talk to you about it. But you are
talking about guidelines perhaps from the Court, is
that right? Somebody?
THE WITNESS: Perhaps from the Court, from someone.
At this point, Your Honor, the School Board has some
expert working to develop a plan to be presented in
this community in the near future.
THE COURT: Well, could you tell me - I realize
you are not on that committee - by hearsay or otherwise,
will that effect more racial mix than you now have?
THE WITNESS: I am not thoroughly familiar with
the plan, but as I understand it, it will achieve some
GRAHAM ERLACHER & ASSOCIATES
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
ASHE DRIVE
WINSTON SALEM. N C.
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greater racial mix in the community.
THE COURT* Will that plan require greater
transportation than you now have? I'm asking you
about something that you are not familiar with.
THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar with it enough to
know what kind of transportation it would require.
MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, the Court indicated a
while ago that Dr. Larsen indicated that some black
schools might remain in his opinion and it still would
be a unitary system. Our contention - I Just want to
clear the record on that - is that there can be no
black or a white school in the system, that all schools
must have racial mixing.
MR. WOMBLE: I suggest now he's attacking his
own witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT* Mr. Chambers, that is your contention
and you have that in your brief and some cases cited
in support of that. However, that was what he said -
that's my recollection about it, and I understand you
all have ordered transcript - and they were in some
substantial number, or they were over here on the
western side of the map, is where he was referring to.
But I realize that that is not your position in it.
Mr. Womble, let's go to lunch.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, sir.
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THE COURT: All right, you may come down. Let's
take a break until ten minutes after two.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled
case was adjourned, to reconvene at 2:10 p.m.)
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ward, will you come
back to the stand?
MR. WOMBLEt The defendants offer into evidence
Exhibit 41 as previously identified. That’s the new
faculty ratios.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, have you seen it?
MR. CHAMBERS: I've seen it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence is the Defendants' Exhibit 41.
(The document above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants' Exhi
bit No. 41 for identification, was received in evidence.)
MR. WOMBLE: We have no further examination of
Mr. Ward.
THE COURT: Let me see your exhibit, the one
that summarizes - is it 24? It's not 26. It says the
non-mix and mix.
MR. WOMBLE: That was 27, I believe, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Hand me that, Mr. Idol. When I
looked over it over the weekend, I had some question but
it leaves me now that I was going to ask you about it, but
maybe I will think of it later. Do you have any questions,
Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Yes, I do, please.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 0, A S S O C I A T E S
O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R *
A S H E D R I V E
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FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, I believe you testified
that as of yesterday there had been certain teacher reassign
ment* made in your school administrative unit?
A That's correct.
Q I believe you testified that this was under a
plan of teacher reassignment?
A Yes, sir.
0 Who adopted this plan of teacher reassignment,
Mr. Ward?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Now, prior to the adoption by the local Board of
Education of this teacher reassignment plan, was the plan
submitted to either the State Board of Education or the
Superintendent of Public Instruction for their approval?
A No, it was not.
0 I assume the reason it was not submitted to them
is that you did not think that it was necessary?
A That's correct.
Q Mr. Ward, is the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
Board of Education required either under state law or under
the State Board of Education regulation to provide any
transportation whatsoever for the pupils in the administra
tive unit?
A No, it is not.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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Q Who decides whether or not transportation is
going to be provided for some of the pupils within the
unit?
A The local Board of Education.
0 Approximately how many buses do you operate now»
Mr. Ward?
A 217.
Q Where do the funds come from for purchase of a
school bus that is used by the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
Board of Education?
A From Forsyth County.
Q From Forsyth County?
A Yes, sir.
0 The State does not afford any funds for the
purchase of school buses?
A That's correct.
Q Who determines whether or not additional school
buses are needed by the local Board of Education?
A The administrative staff makes recommendations to
the School Board about the need,
Q And the School Board would then make the final
decision?
A Yes.
Q Does the State Board of Education make any regula
tions whatsoever dealing with the transportation of pupils?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I don't understand what you have In mind.
Q Do they have any regulations determining the
construction of the school bus that 1b used, the number of
pupils that can be allowed to ride on a bus, the color of
the bus?
A Yes, there are regulations that determine the
structure, size, color and so forth, and also the pupil
capacity of buses.
0 Who determines the bus route, Mr. Ward?
A The local Board of Education.
Q Does the State provide any funds for the transports
tion of pupils by your unit?
A Yes, it makes funds available for operational
costs.
U For the operational costs?
A Yes.
Q How is it determined how much state funds are
going to be available to your administrative unit?
A Based upon the number of buses that we have in use,
Q And of course you testified that the local Board
of Education determines the number of buses that will be
used?
A That's correct.
MR. VANOREj I have no further questions.
THE COURT: What would happen if you had a plan
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to build a school and you didn’t submit your plan to
the State Board, Mr. Ward? Could you build the school?
THE WITNESS* No, I would be in violation from a
structural standpoint in terms of building. I am
required to submit a plan to the School Board, to the
State Board of Education - not to determine where or
how big, but to be sure that it is safe and sound
from a structural standpoint.
Q (By Mr. Vanore) I believe the local Board of
Education also determines how many school buildings are
going to be in operation, does it not?
A That's correct.
MR. LIGONz Just one question, Your Honor.
0 (By Mr. Ligon) With respect to the recent teacher
transfer, did the Board of County Commissioners have any
thing at all to do with the preparation, approval or
implementation of the plan?
A No, it did not.
MR. LIGON* That's it* thank you.
THE COURT* Did you have some more questions?
MR. WOMBLE* No, sir.
THE COURT* All right, Mr. Chambers.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I won't be long with this,
Mr. Ward, I Just want to get the record straight about the
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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participation by the State Board in the operation of the
school system. You are familiar with the various forms
that you have to submit to the State Board of Education?
A I believe moat of them.
Q I show you the answer of the State Board to
interrogatory 12, and I ask you if you will Just look through
that document - those documents, and tell me if you are
familiar with those. What do those documents show generally,
Mr. Ward?
A Most of those are instructions in relation to
providing information in connection with salaries and in
connection with the federal programs under Title I.
Q Are you required to follow those instructions?
A Yes.
Q By the State Board of Education? In order to
qualify forfunds, you have to follow the instructions,
don't you?
A Yes.
Q I show you the answer to interrogatory number 2
filed by the State Board — I'm sorry, interrogatory number 1.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, what you just referred
to then, are they exhibits to the answer to interro
gatory 12?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir. They are exhibits
attached to.
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THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: They’re designated in the answer,
that answer to interrogatory 12.
THE COURT: All right.
CLERK IDOL: I believe also that would be relative
to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 50.
THE COURT: Number 50?
MR. CHAMBERS: That's correct.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you tell the Court
whether the exhibit you are now looking at, which was the
answer of the State Board to interrogatory 1, sets out or
shows the local Board's budget for the school year 1967-68?
A It's a statement of the amount of money paid to
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School Unit during the
fiscal year of '67-68.
Q Paid by the State Board of Education?
A Yes.
Q Is it detailed as to where the money is going and
for what?
A It states the purpose for which it was spent.
Q Could you spend it for any other purpose?
A Nothing other than that under the general cate
gory specified.
Q It also talks about the superintendent's salary -
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O F F I C I A L C O U R T REPORTERS
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in other words, your office salary, including travel,
attendant's counsel, office expenaes?
A Yes, it does.
Q Instructional services?
A Yes.
Q Salaries of elementary teachers and high school
teachers?
A Correct.
Q It talks about the wages for Janitors?
A Yes.
Q The cost of fuel for the school systen?
A Yes.
Q Water, light and power?
A Yea.
Cl Telephone expenses?
A Yes.
Q It talks about transportation of students?
A Yes.
Q Wages of drivers?
A Yes.
Q Cost of gas and oil, etcetera?
A That's right.
Q What is this contract transportation?
A There's not any amount of money alloted under
that.
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Q Would you explain to the Court what that means?
A We have never had any contract transportation,
and I'm not sure what is meant by that.
Q You're not sure that that means that the School
Board—
MR. VANORE: He's already said that he's not
sure what is meant by it, and—
MR. CHAMBERS! Your Honor, I point out that the
witness is on cross examination.
THE COURT: This is cross examination; go ahead,
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't It true, Mr. Ward, that
the State Board of Education permits the local School Board
to contract with other agencies to provide transportation
for students?
A I think this is possible.
0 Like a city bus system?
A I've had no experience with it.
Q What is meant by the principal's bus salary or
bus travel?
A The State pays each principal, I believe $1.50
per month for each bus that he supervises during the school
year.
Q The State also pays funds for vocational programs
teachers?
A Yes, it does.
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Q Was the State budget for 1969-70 approximately
the same as it was for 1967-68?
A I would assume it was approximately the same.
Q Did it increase some?
A It increased some.
Q I show you the State Board’s answers to interro
gatories 2 and 4, and ask you if you are familiar with
those documents?
A Yes, I am.
Q Do those documents talk about the requirements
for certification of teachers?
A One of them does.
0 What else does it apply to?
A All of the professional personnel.
Q What other documents do you have?
A We have the budget forms for operation and a
sample of the application for teacher certificate.
Q Now, this exhibit included talking about the
operating school budget. Is that what you submit to the
State Board in order to get approval of state funds?
A I believe it is.
Q And before you can get any state funds, the state
has to approve of that budget?
A Yes.
U I show you the state’s answer to interrogatory
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O r r u ia l C o u r t Re p o r t e r s
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number 3, and I ask if you will look at that and tell the
Court what that is.
A It's a copy of the State Board of Education’s
sick leave and substitute teacher regulation.
Q That governs when a teacher can take siok leave
and what happens in case of substitution?
A That's right.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and regula
tions?
A Yes, we are.
0 I show you the State’s answer to interrogatory
number 5, and I ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are policies and regulations for allotment
of teachers to each school system.
Q Are teachers allotted to your school by the
State Board pursuant to those rules and regulations?
A Yes, they are.
Q And you are required to follow those rules and
regulations?
A Yes.
Q I show you the State's answer to interrogatory
number 7. I ask you if you will tell the Court what that
document is?
A They are rules and regulations in connection with
fire safety, with exceptionally talented children, with the
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O r r i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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other special education students, and with educable
mentally retarded, and in connection with driver training
and safety education.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and
regulations?
A Yes.
Q I show you State’s answers to interrogatory
number 8 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are curriculum guides for the educable
mentally retarded and for the trainable mentally retarded,
and for driver education.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and
regulations?
A Yes, sir.
Q I show you the State’s answer to interrogatory
number 9 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A This is the guideline for athletics and other
student activities.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and regu
lations?
A Yes.
Q I show you State's answer to interrogatory number
10, and I ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are rules and policies regulating the
operation of the regular school buses during the summer
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school program, and also a copy of regulatory policies
for use of school buses by the County-City Board of Educa
tion.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and
regulations?
A Yes, sir.
0 I show you State's answer to interrogatory number
11 and ask you if you will tell the Court what that is.
A These are policies and rules and regulations
from the State Board of Education governing the expenditure
of the &100 million State of North Carolina public school
facilities bond issue of 1963.
Q Did you participate in that bond issue?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q Were you required to follow those rules and
regulations?
A Yes, sir, we were.
0 I show you the State's answer to interrogatory
number 14 and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A These are procedures for selecting and adopting
and the distribution of textbooks and library books, and
the standards of accreditation for high school, elementary
and Junior high school, along with a policy guide for school
food service.
Q Are you required to follow those rules and
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regulations?
A Yes, we are.
Q Are you required to select textbooks from the
books suggested by the State Board of Education?
A The last legislature liberalized the policy a
little more than they had in the past.
Q You had previously been doing that?
A Yes.
Q Now you have been given a little bit more freedom
in the selection of books?
A Yes.
Q Are you required, however, to select certain
books despite the liberality in the policy?
A I don’t know that you could limit it to certain
books, but there are limited ones.
Q Are your schools accredited by the State Board
of Education?
A Yes, they are.
Q Are you not required to have them accredited by
the State Board of Education?
A I don't know that we're required to; we do.
Q Well, does a student satisfy the state compulsive
attendance law if he is going to an unaccredited school?
A I believe he does.
Q He can go to an unaccredited school?
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A I believe he can.
Q Are all your schools accredited by the State
Board of Education?
A Y e s .
^ I show you the State's answer to interrogatory 16
and ask you to tell the Court what that is.
A This shows the amount of federal funds paid to
this school system by the State of North Carolina for
vocational education from the National Defense Education
Act, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, and for
the school food service program.
U Did you receive appropriations for those services
for the school year 1969-70?
A We received funds? I'm not sure that we received
appropriations in advance.
Q You are using funds now?
A Yes, we are.
u I show you the State's answer to interrogatory 19
and ask if you will tell the Court what that is.
A it contains forms for a financial report for a
public school system in North Carolina for 1967-68, and
the principal's monthly report form, and the final report
form. These are blank copies, but they are the type used
by schools in North Carolina.
Q You are required to file quite a few reports with
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the State Board of Education, are you not?
A Yes, we are.
Q And the State Board of Education sets quite a few
rules and regulations to govern the operation of the local
school unit?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what Percentage of your total budget
is provided by the State Board of Education?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A Somewhere between sixty and sixty-five percent,
not including capital outlay. I don't know the exact
figure.
What percentage is provided locally?
Roughly thirty percent.
Is tiiat one of those documents I left there?
The last one you gave me.
I'm sorry. And about ten percent of your budget
Is provided by the federal government?
A Somewhere between five and ten, I believe, by
the federal government.
Q Mr. Vanore asked you about how you purchased
school buses. Who replaces buses when they are worn out?
A The State of North Carolina.
Q Before you can add new buses, isn't it a require-
aent of the State Board that you get approval from the State
ioard?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I'm not sure of the answer to that question.
Q Are you telling the Court that you can Just go
out there and buy a bus any time you get ready?
A We have the authority to buy a busj I don’t know
whether we would be required to have approval before we
operate it.
Q Now, the State sets the regulation for how many
teachers you can have in the system?
A How many they will provide.
Q Do you provide extra teachers from your local
budget?
A Yes, we do.
Q Approximately how many are provided locally?
A Approximately 180 at this time.
Q Now, you also pay teacher supplement in this
system, do you not?
A Yes, we do.
Q What is that, what is the teacher supplement
presently? How much is it?
A I've forgotten the exact range now. It's probably
from about six to thirteen hundred dollars per season, per
teacher per year.
Q Your local funds are provided through the County
Commissioners of Forsyth County?
A That’s correct.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
Phone 763-0636
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Q You prepare a budget and submit it to the County
Commissioners and if they approve it, then you are funded
according to the amount they approve?
A That's correct.
Q You say approximately thirty percent of your funds,
of the total amount, comes from the Commissioners?
A That's right.
Q Now, on transportation, do you have any arrange
ments with the Safe Bus Company in Winston to provide
transportation to any school to any city kid?
A No, we do not.
q Does the Safe Company send a bus up to your high
schools to pick up the high school kids at the end of the
day?
A It does, the Safe Bus Company on its own does
transport some students, some from high school and some from
Junior and some from elementary,
Q You do have a bus system within the city, private,
the Safe Bus Company?
A The Safe Bus Company operates its own buses.
Q Does it operate at Atkins?
A I would assume that it doesi I'm not positive.
Q Does it operate at Reynolds?
A I think so. Again, I ’m not positive. I'm not
positive at which schools it operates; it's several of them,
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
O r n t i a l C o u r t R e i * o * T t » s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
Phone. 765-0636
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but I don't know at which schools
Q Doesn't it operate at several of the schools in
the city?
A It does.
Q Does it provide reduced fares for students riding
on the bus?
A I believe that's correct.
Q Isn't the fare about ten or fifteen cents for a
school child?
A I honestly don't know what it is.
Q Anyway, it picks up a student and carries hid all
the way to the school?
A Yes.
Q Goes back in the afternoon and picks him up?
A Yes.
Q Approximately how many students ride on the city
bus?
A I do not know.
G Would it be fifty percent of the city students?
A I don't have any idea.
Q Y/ould you say a substantial number ride in the
city buses?
A Compared to the total enrollment, I would say
that it would not be a substantial number.
Q It would not be a substantial number?
GRAHAM ERLACHER & ASSOCIATES
O fficial C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
ASHE DRIVE
WINSTON SALEM. N C
Phone 76 5 0 6 3 6
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A It would not be.
Q Now, you're talking about the total within the
city or the total of the county?
A Either way. The total within the county, most
of the students there are being transported by our own
buses. Within the city, I do not believe it's a large
proportion of the number there.
Q Anyway, arrangements have been made by Safe Bus
Company to provide some transportation?
A That is correct.
Q Now, don't you also have activity buses?
A We have some activity buses at the Junior and
senior high school.
Q At all of the Junior and senior high schools?
A We have at least one at all of them.
Q Are they paid for by the State Board of Education?
A No, they're not.
Q Are they paid for by the local Board of Education?
A Yes.
Q Did you have to provide them?
A Yes.
Q And you provide the operating expenses for those?
A It is provided by the individual school activity
fund.
0 That's the operating expenses?
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A The operating expenses. The School Board buys
them.
Q Approximately how far is the average child bused
in Winston and Forsyth County each day?
A I don't have any idea.
Q Well, take West Forsyth; approximately how far
does the average child going to that school ride a bus each
day?
A I don't have any way of knowing how to answer
that question.
Q Is it more than five miles?
A I doubt the average would be.
Q Let's look at your district.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, tell me where West Forsyth
is. Is it out in the county?
THE WITNESS: It is down in the southwest corner.
This is the outlying edge of the county.
THE COURT: You Just have that as West?
THE WITNESS: It's listed as West, but it's really
West Forsyth. This is the district for West Forsyth,
and this is the location of the school (indicating on
map.)
THE COURT: Well, you have Southwest?
THE WITNESS: Southwest is the Junior high and
West is the senior high for the same district.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE COURT: You go ahead with Mr. Chambers'
ques tions.
A The maximum distance that any child could travel,
as the crow flies, from the very edge of the district would
be about eight miles. So if you took the average for the
district and the fact that population is a little greater
down here, it's like that three, three and a half miles
might be average.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) V/ould you look at North Forsyth
and tell us approximately what the average distance is that
a child travels per day at North?
A Again I don't think that I could give you an
average. This North High School district is made up of a
large rural area, with several areas that are more thickly
populated, and I don't have any way of giving any kind of
an average in that district.
d Would you tell U3 the fartherest distance that one
would travel in the North Forsyth School district?
A It looks like about eleven miles would be the
maximum distance, as the crow flies; it might be even more
than that by road.
Q Would you look at East Forsyth and tell us the
fartherest distance that one would travel in the East district
A It would be about the same.
Q Now, what is the fartherest that one would travel
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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in the Parkland?
A It looks like it might be five and a half to six
miles.
Q Looking at this map, how far in the city are buses
running today that are provided for by the State?
A How far into the city?
Q Can you point it out on the map?
A The Parkland district - the senior high school
district, which is this district — not elementary or junior
high - but this school is on the outside of the city and
these children from the Parkland district are bused to
Parkland.
Q The Parkland district goes up here?
A The Parkland district is here. It comes in here
and out that way.
Q Would you have buses running in the eastern
section of the city around Atkins High School and Skyland?
A No, we do not.
Q Do you have buses running around Lowrance and
Kimberly?
A We have buses at the high school level only,
picking up students in the Lowrance and a small part of the
Kimberly area that are assigned to North High School.
Q Do you have buses coming into the western part
of the city, around Whitaker?
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O ffic i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A No, sir.
q So the furtherest they would come would be to
Sherwood Forest Elementary School district?
A The Sherwood Forest and Mount Tabor; these buses
go back this way.
Q How far in the inner city would the buses come
for junior high school students?
A We don't have any buses within the city, I don't
believe, at this time, busing students.
Q Are there any buses at Hanes?
A No.
Q Now, looking at the district within the inner
city, you estimate that you would have to pay out about a
half a million dollars to provide buses and operate them
according to the plan suggested by Dr. Larsen, and I think
you indicated that you were anticipating busing every child
within the inner city?
A No, I did not, only two-thirds of them.
Q Well, you gave us two figures. One was for two-
thirds, I thought, and one was for every child.
A I used the first figure simply to determine the
cost, and then I explained to you that his plan would only
take two-thirds of that cost.
Q I see. Now, you indicated that you have some
Negro students who are presently assigned outside of their
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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d i s t r i c t u n d e r freedom o f c h o ic e ?
A That1s true.
Q Some going to Reynolds— You might take the
stand. Some going to Reynolds and some going to other
schools in the system. How are they transported to school?
A They provide their own transportation.
Q You don't provide any kind of transportation for
them?
A I don't provide any transportation for any
students at Reynolds High School.
0 Now, you have some going to elementary school
outside of the district under freedom of choice?
A There may be a few.
Q Well, your figure, I thought, shows that you had
about 2,000 Negro students in integrated schools. Is that
correct?
A That is correct; not all elementary, but total.
Q How are the elementary students, how do they get
to school transferring outside of their district?
A All students within the boundary of the city,
whether they go in the district or outside, provide their
own transportation.
THE COURT: Hr. Y/ard, does that mean when you all
are talking about the inner city, does that mean the
old city limits plus what has come in?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE WITNESS: Mo. Actually, Your Honor, it means
the district within the city as of 1957. The students
outside of that district line have been provided with
transportation. The only exception to that, there is
a school like Parkland - which is on the outside of
the city and at the high school level - we can furnish
transportation within the law to the student who lives
inside the city if he’s transported outside.
THE COURT: To get him out there to his school?
THE WITNESS: That’s right. That's the line
we’re talking abut; that’s not necessarily in the
city. But in relation to transportation, that's the
line we're talking about for the moment.
THE COURT: I see. All right.
q (By Mr. Chambers) There are some students within
the inner city that are going to school outside the city
limits. You can provide bus transportation for them?
A We are doing it at North and Parkland for high
school students.
0 Does the State pay the money for those buses?
A Yes, it does, and that's within the law.
THE COURT: We haven't met yet about that.
THE WITNESS: For the moment.
q (By Mr. Chambers) You indicated that there was
a committee presently working on a plan for further student
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desegregation?
A That is correct.
0 Is that a committee of School Board members?
A There may be one or two School Board members on
it. The Committee is not totally made up of School Board
members.
Q Is your staff on the committee?
A My staff is not a part of the committee. My
staff has provided help and information to them, but there
is no staff member on that committee.
Q Who is the chairman of that committee?
A Mr. Ed Pullen.
C Is he a member of the School Board?
A No, he is not.
Q Who appointed the committee?
A I ’m not sure. I believe - I ’m sorry. I'm not
sure who appointed the committee. It was either a combina
tion of the School Board and the Citizen’s Committee, or
the Urban Coalition, and I'm not Just sure how it was
appointed.
Q Does it have any authority at all?
A No, it doesn't have any official authority, no,
sir. The authority is within the School Board.
Q Is there any committee presently authorized by
the School Board to prepare a plan for further integration
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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o f th e s tu d e n ts i n t h i s s c h o o l system ?
A This committee that I speak of either was
appointed by the School Board or jointly by the School
Board and another agency.
0 What other agency?
A It's either the Urban Coalition or the Citizen’s
Commission, and I ’m not sure which.
Q Did the School Board give it any instruction?
A I ’m not sure exactly what its instructions were
to the committee.
G What participation has your staff played with
the committee?
A Providing information to them and helping them
work with figures.
Q What kind of information?
A Information concerning the location of the schools,
pupils, district lines, providing maps, and information.
Q Well, do you have a spot map?
A Not of the complete school system.
Q Do you have one of the inner city?
A We have one a portion of the inner city.
Q Which portion?
A The portion that would have been affected by
transportation if the change had come to eliminate the line,
to provide transportation for all students within the city
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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0 That is if the lawsuit challenging—
A The Sparrow case.
Would that be the northeastern part of the city,
northwestern part?
A It could be in any area of the city which would
come into play as far as transportation was concerned if
it were determined that the individual school attendance
area was larger, had a radius larger than a mile and a
half.
Q Is that spot map in your office?
A Yes.
TIE COURT: Mr. Ward, no criticism about using
you here, but often on matters they have to depend on
someone else to get the information, but I read in the
newspaper where the committee that Mr. Chambers refers
to, that there was some authorization to pay Dr.
McGuffey - is that his name?
THE WITNESS: The School Board has employed Dr.
McGuffey and associates to help prepare a plan for this
purpose,
aHE COURT: Is it your understanding that Dr.
McGuffey is working with the committee that Mr. Pullen
heads?
TIE WIXNE33: That is correct.
on th e same b a s is as o u ts id e .
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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THE COURT: Do I not read in the paper that the
School Board has authorized funds to maybe get this
plan so the Court can understand it, to pay for
organizing it, or somebody to get it together?
THE WITNESS: They have employed Dr. McGuffey
and his associates, and also have employed Mr. Pullen
to assist with providing a plan for the School Board.
THE COURT: So the School Board does have some
connection with this committee; it Just isn't afloat
without any connection with the School Board?
THE WITNESS: Both Dr. McGuffey and Mr. Pullen
have been employed to try to provide a plan for the
School Board.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) When are they to report to the
School Board on the plan?
A I don't know when they are going to officially
report to the School Board in connection with the plan.
There is a meeting today, I believe, in connection with it,
ath members of the committee and members of the Board.
Q Is it Dr. McGuffey?
A Yes.
Q Has he already presented a proposal?
A If he has, I'm not aware of it.
Q What did the School Board instruct Dr. McGuffey
with respect to integrating schools?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I ’ m n o t aware o f any s p e c i f i c i n s t r u c t io n i n
connection with it.
Q Did you go to the Board meeting where the School
Board voted to employ Dr. IIcGuffey?
A I was present.
Q Well, are you aware of any instructions that were
given?
A Not any specific instructions.
Q Was he instructed to eliminate any busing?
A What?
Q Was he instructed to eliminate any busing?
A I don’t believe he was. I don’t recall any
specific instructions in terms of what he was to do.
Q He was Just told to go and provide some plan for
integrating the schools?
A I'm not sure what he was asked to do exactly.
Q Does he work out of your office?
A He has spent considerable time in our office
working, working with maps and information and material.
Q And you are telling the Court you don't know what
he is doing?
A He has not been in our office recently, sir.
Q Well, is Dr. McGfuffey to report to the committee
or to the Board of Education?
A I understand he is going to report collectively to
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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the committee and to the Board at the sane time.
G Now, I think you said that the course you hud
the school bus running, to Bolton Elementary and high
school, you end up paying about $21.00 or $22.00 per pupil
per year, whereas the State average is $17.50?
A That's correct.
G Is that $4.00 difference paid for out of your
budget locally?
A Yes.
Approximately how much do you pay a year local?
A It’s probably seventy, seventy-five thousand
dollars for this program.
G I didn't ask you; what is your total operating
budget for this school year, 1969-70?
A I believe it's somewhere in the neighborhood of
$26 million.
On the matter of teacher desegregation, you
indicated there were several exemptions. I think you were
reading from the plan that you followed for the assigning
of teachers?
A That's true.
G Do you have that with you?
Yes.
The plan for teacher desegregation—
That wasn't introduced into evidence. He simply
A
Q
A
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O ff -11 i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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a s k e d me q u e s t i o n s a b o u t i t .
THE COURT: N ow , h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t g i v e s t h e
b r e a k d o w n . I s t h a t w h a t y o u n e e d ?
MR. CHAMBERS: I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s a p l a n
t h a t t h e y f o l l o w e d .
THE W ITNESS: I h a v e o n e .
Q (B y M r. C h a m b e r s ) Do y o u h a v e a n e x t r a c o p y o f i t ?
A I d o n o t h a v e o n e w i t h m e.
THE COURT: T h e y c a n r u n o n e o n t h e m a c h in e b a c k
t h e r e r a t h e r h a s t i l y , M r. C h a m b e r s , f o r y o u .
ME. CHAMBERS: I c a n d o i t l a t e r , b u t w e w o u ld
l i k e t o m ake t h i s a n e x h i b i t .
q (B y M r. C h a m b e r s ) And o n e o f t h e e x c e p t i o n s y o u
h a v e h e r e , a l l a s s i s t a n t p r i n c i p a l s a p p r o v e d b y t h e S c h o o l
B o a r d ?
A T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .
G Why w a s t h a t a n e x c e p t i o n ?
A I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u m e a n .
Q Why d i d y o u m ake t h a t a n e x c e p t i o n ?
A T h e c o m m it t e e m ade u p - a s I ' v e e x p l a i n e d I t t o
y o u t h i s m o r n in g , m ade t h a t d e c i s i o n t h a t t h e s e w e r e t h e
g r o u p s o f p e o p l e t h a t o u g h t t o b e e x e m p t e d fr o m t h i s e x
c h a n g e .
q Why i n y o u r o p i n i o n w e r e t h e a s s i s t a n t p r i n c i p a l s
o n e o f t h o s e t h a t w o u ld b e e x e m p t e d ?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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A I w o u ld b e l ie v e i t was to c o n t in u e th e e f f e c t i v e
and efficient operation of the school.
Q Is that what was reported to the School Board when
it approved this as an exception?
A The reasons given for these specific items were
not reported to the School Board at that time.
Q Has it been reported to the School Board why tills
was an exception?
A Hot to my knowledge.
Q Why did you exempt everybody in special education
in the areas indicated?
A Basically the reason for those exemptions probably
was the difficulty in this type of child being able to adjust
to the change, and the fact that it would be difficult to
find other teachers who could match the teacher teaching in
this particular field.
G How many schools did you have operating special
education programs?
A I don't know the exact number; about six or eight,
I guess.
Q And where would they be? Would they be predominant
ly white, predominantly black?
A Some of each.
Q Could you give us some names of them?
A I don't believe I can right off, sir. I could
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find out the names, but at the moment I don't think I can
all of them.
0 Now, the Children's Center, you indicated you
didn't have anybody to match up with the teachers there?
A That's correct.
Q And according to your figures submitted in your
Lxhibit 26, Children's Center has 4 white teachers and no
Negro teachers?
A That's correct.
Q So you are leaving that all white?
A For the present.
Q Is Children’s Home an orphanage?
A Yes.
Q I notice that at Anderson, you have
Negro and 60 percent white, and at Carver you have 45 per
cent Negro and 55 percent white, and your testimony was, as
I recall, that these were small schools and you had some
difficulty in matching up teachers?
A That was one of the problems.
Q 1 understand that at Atkins you still have quite
a few vacancies, or several vacancies?
A That is not correct. I do not believe at this
time we have more than two or possibly three.
Q Why do you have vacancies at Atkins?
A We had one or two resignations from people assigned
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there and we have not been able to fill them
Q Isn't it a fact that you didn't assign some
people there, too?
A It is a fact that we assigned some where people
had resigned in the exchange; we did assign some exchanges.
I believe most of those have been filled. I believe our
most difficult problem at Atkins is a case where the person
resigned -
Q Are you telling the Court that you assigned a
white teacher to fill every vacancy there?
A All that ha-vebeen filled.
Q There are two or three that haven't been filled?
A There are one or two that as of yesterday after
noon had not been filled.
Q So you didn't assign anybody there yet?
A We may have. We had applicants, I think, for
all of these positions and they were being interviewed
yesterday afternoon. I don't know what the situation is;
they may be filled now. I think there were two or three
as of yesterday.
Q As of Monday, you had four or five vacancies
there?
A I don't think we had but about three or possibly
four.
Q Did you have any vacancies at the white schools?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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A I'm not sure
u Isn't it true that you didn't have any?
A I am not sure whether we did or not.
Q Isn't one of those vacancies at Atkins a French
position?
A I do not think it is.
Q Isn't it one of the required courses?
A French is a required course, but I do not believe
there's a vacancy at Atkins in French; it may be.
Q You don't recall whether the one or two vacancies
there now would be in a required course?
A One of them that they were having difficulty
filling at the moment is in distributive education. I
believe that one of the others was in business education,
and I'm not sure what the third one was.
Q The teachers teaching junior and senior high
school at Anderson and Carver, are they certified in all the
fields they're teaching?
A Most of them are. I'm not absolutely positive
that all of them are in every field they're teaching.
Q Mr. Ward, isn't it possible for you to further
integrate Anderson and Carver now?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'll change the wording.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Isn't it possible for you to
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t Re p o r t e r s
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racially mix more teachers at Anderson and Carver now?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A If you define the word "possible", I might be
able to answer it.
THE COURT: I would think that would have to be
answered yes; I'm not telling you what— the question
is could you Just put more teachers over there.
THE WITNESS: That could be done.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Is it true that in your system
today you still have Negro principals at predominantly
Negro schools and white principals at predominantly white
schools?
A We have some that way.
Q What exceptions do you have?
A Brunson Elementary School.
Q That's predominantly white?
A Yes.
Q Has a Negro principal?
A Yes.
L Any other school?
A Lowrance Elementary is predominantly Negro with
a white principal, and Hanes Junior High School is predomi
nantly Negro with a white principal.
Q Now, would all the others have a principal of the
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race of the majority of the students in the school?
A Yes, they do.
0 How many Negroes do you have on your staff in the
central office?
MR. WOMBLE: I object. We're getting into a
repetition, Your Honor.
TIE COURT: Well, overruled.
A Will you define the meaning of "staff"?
Q I'll withdraw the question. Do you think it
possible to integrate the Negro schools in the eastern part
of the City of Winston?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Do you think it possible to
mix students racially in the present all Negro schools in
the eastern part of the city?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
TIE COURT: Overruled.
A Repeat the question, please.
Q Do you think it possible to mix students racially
in the presently predominantly Negro schools in the eastern
part of the city?
A It is possible.
0 What do you think could be done to integrate and
mix them?
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A I don't have any suggestions for it at this time.
0 I think you heard Mr. Sarbaugh testify yesterday
about pairing and clustering different groups of schools?
A Yes.
Q You're familiar with these terms, are you not?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the school systems that
have used one of these means to mix students racially?
A Yes.
0 Would you tell the Court some of those systems?
A Princeton, New Jersey and Berkeley, California.
Q Would you tell the Court what kind of plan they
have in Berkeley, California?
A Berkeley, California is using a plan which three
schools are used to mix the races by using a district as
large as three schools generally, and using different grade
levels to take care of the pupils for the entire district.
Couldn’t that be done to mix students racially in
the eastern part of the city?
A It possibly could.
Q Do you know of any other way?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A It might be done by pairing,
a Would you point out to the Court what kind of
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pairing you are talking about?
A Pairing is generally thought of in terms of the
Princeton plan, in which you use two schools in the same
district and part of the grades at one level and part at
the other.
d Could you give the Court an example on the board
with some of the schools you have in the system?
A You might take any two schools in the system that
are adjoining districts and pair them.
Q Would you come down and point out an example here?
Y,fould you use Skyland and Petree?
A It could be used, but it wouldn't give a very good
balance. Petree School is not quite as large as Skyland,
and it would work out better if both of the schools are the
same size. They are in adjoining districts and it could be
done.
Q You say Petree is predominantly white?
A Predominantly white.
0 /aid Skyland is predominantly Negro?
A Yes.
C Both serve grades one through six?
A Yes.
Q Have you seen the pairing where you had two grades
at Petree and four grades at Skyland, rather than three
grades each?
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A I'm sure some of that has been done; I'm not aware
of any particular school that's done that way.
Q I believe Lowrance now is presently predominantly
Negro?
A Yes, it is.
Q /aid Kimberly Park is predominantly white?
A No. Kimberly Park is predominantly Negro. You
would have to use Lowrance.
Q Both those schools serve grades one through six?
A That's correct.
Q And one possibility for that would be to put one
in Lowrance?
A It probably would be again two and four. Mineral
Springs is larger than Lowrance, and the balance wouldn't
work out there. It would probably have to be done with the
two grades at Lowrance and possibly four at Mineral Springs,
because Mineral Springs is larger than Lowrance.
Q Now, the clustering, would it involve taking more
than two schools, as we are indicating there for pairing?
A I'm not familiar with any school system that has
actually used a clustering plan, but I assume that when you
use the word "cluster", you are combining more than three
schools. I would assume the Berkley plan involved three
schools; the pairing plan in the Princeton plan uses two,
and a cluster might use any number of more than that in the
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c o m b in a t io n .
Q In your opinion, would it be necessary to cluster
in order to mix those schools on the east side of the city?
A I am not sure. I haven't studied it carefully
enough to know whether clustering would be necessary in that
process or not.
Q Just as another example, have you seen a district
that would use four schools for pairing and make one 1 and
2, the other 2 and 3, and the other one 3 to 4, and the
other one 5 and 6?
A I have not seen any exactly like that. I notice
that some school districts have taken a larger area and had
all the students at one grade level, maybe the fifth grade,
go to that school.
Q Are you familiar with the plan now operating in
Lexington, North Carolina?
A I know approximately what it is.
Q Is that a clustering kind of plan?
A I would assume that in at least some areas it
probably is a clustered plan. I don't know that that title
has been used in connection with it, but as I understand it,
they have different varieties of districts and different
makeups.
Q Have you had a chance to see the plan that was
adopted in Durham County?
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A I have seen the Judge’s ruling, I believe, on
that case, and as I understand that, there is no clustering
or pairing in it. It's simply a districting plan for
Durham County.
Q Now, in your opinion, is it possible to district
this school district to mix students racially in the schools?
A No, it is not possible.
Q If the Carver district, for instance, were
enlarged, could you integrate Carver or mix students
racially in Carver?
A Explain what you mean by that. If you enlarge
the boundaries, would some white students be going to Carver?
Q Yes.
A That would be true.
Q If the Skyland district were enlarged, would you
bring some white students into Skyland?
A Bring a few.
Q If the Lowrance district were enlarged, could
you bring some white students into Lowrance?
A A few.
Q If the Kimberly district were enlarged, could you
bring some white students into Kimberly?
A A few into that one.
Q Now, not only enlarging but by altering the
boundary lines, you could bring some white students—
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A That would be enlargement,
Q Well, if you cut off the eastern part of the
Kimberly district, for instance, and moved the western
boundary line further west—
A Well, you would have to take in more area than
you now take in in the district, or you couldn't__ I don't
think you could do anything with it. See, Kimberly is in
a very compact district; it is thickly populated, and if
you went in any other direction you would have to take in
a much larger area than you would give up in order to get
the same number of students.
Q But it is possible to Just change some of the
boundary lines you have there now to bring in some white
students?
A You could bring in on any schools - any black
school bordering a white school, you could change the
boundary and bring in a few students. You could not bring
in very many in any instance in the school - that is you
might get up to ten percent. I doubt if there are any
instances without radically moving the lines to an unreason
able degree that you could get more than about ten percent,
and it would be small, but you could pick up a few at
almost any.
THE CuURT: What about at Brown? What could you
do at that?
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THE WITNESS: At Brown you could not. There are
two or three like Brown Elementary that do not border
on white districts, and you could not do it at those.
But around the outside fringe, you could adjust the
lines and pick up a few white students, but probably
not enough to meet anybody's guidelines as to what a
desegregated school would be.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, on the pairing or clustering
plan, as compared with the transpoi’tacion which is now
provided, if you went through the system - you know,
working out that plan and getting some mix somewhat
on the basis that Dr. Larsen talked about, that is
ten percent on either side - what about the transpor
tation? You couldn't do it on the present transporta
tion surely?
THE WITNESS: No, we could not, and actually, if
you used all the transportation that would be made
available at the moment - with our capacity and the
Safe Bus Company capacity - it couldn't be done.
THE COURT: Do you people have a contingency and
emergency fund, let's say, that you could hire buses
that were available? Do you people have in your budget
some contingency or emergency funds that could be
utilized?
THE WITNESS: No. We have a very small amount of
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m o n ey i n o u r p r e s e n t f u n d . T h e S t a t e o f N o r t h C a r o l i n a
p r o v i d e s m o s t o f t h e m o n e y f o r t h a t p u r p o s e , a n d w e
n a v e a v e r y s m a l l a m o u n t o f m o n e y i n o u r b u d g e t . We
d o n o t h a v e a n y c o n t i n g e n c y f u n d s t h a t c o u l d b e u s e d
f o r t h a t p u r p o s e .
THE COURT: A l l r i g h t , M r. C h a m b e r s .
Q (B y M r. C h a m b e r s ) I t h o u g h t y o u h a d 3 7 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0
t h a t y o u u s e d e a c h y e a r o v e r a n d a b o v e w h a t t h e S t a t e p r o
v i d e d f o r J u s t a k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n t —
A T h a t ’ s n o t a c o n t i n g e n c y f u n d , s i r ; t h a t ' s d e s i g n a
t e d a n d s p e c i f i e d b y t h e B o a r d f o r c e r t a i n p u r p o s e s .
Q I t i s p o s s i b l e t h o u g h , i s n ' t i t , M r, W ard , t o
r e o r g a n i z e y o u r c o m p l e t e b u s s y s t e m t o p r o v i d e so m e t r a n s
p o r t a t i o n f o r f u r t h e r m i x i n g o f s t u d e n t s ?
A I t i s n ' t i m p o s s i b l e t o d o w h a t w a s p r o p o s e d b y
D r . L a r s e n , o r w h a t w e h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s i n g , w i t h i n t h e l a w .
Y ou c o u l d d o so m e r e o r g a n i z a t i o n b u t r e l a t i v e l y l i t t l e
t o w a r d s t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t w e a r e d i s c u s s i n g w i t h i n t h e l a w .
Q Y ou c a n d o s o m e t h i n g w i t h i n t h e la w ?
A R e l a t i v e l y l i t t l e .
Q Y ou i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t w o u ld t a k e a b o u t 3 1 2 5 * 0 0 0 .0 0
f o r o p e r a t i n g c o s t s f o r w h a t D r . L a r s e n s u g g e s t e d f o r t h e
e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s ?
A. T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
Q And y o u ' v e g o t $ 7 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 ?
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A We do n o t have 3 7 5 ,0 0 0 .0 0 . A t le a s t h a l f o f t h a t
has already been spent.
Q The County Commissioners have contingency funds,
don't they?
A I can’t answer that question.
Q You don't know that to be a fact?
A No, I do not.
Q Have you really made a study to determine whether
the Safe Bus Company could provide transportation?
A No, I have not, except that I am aware of what
the problems that Safe Bus Company has had within the last
year or two in trying to provide the transportation that was
needed in this community.
Q Have you sat down and determined approximately
how far the children would be from the schools, given the
plans that Dr. Larsen was talking about?
A No, sir, I have not.
Q You don't even know if they'd actually need
transportation?
A Yes, I do. I have experimented with it just
enough to determine the distance. Now, if you can implement -
I'll back up - if this plan can be implemented without
public transportation, then it wouldn't cost us any addi
tional money. If the parents provided the transportation
for the students and we weren't required to do it, then it
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wouldn't take any extra money for the school system to do It.
If you left transportation up to the parents, that wouldn’t
be a problem.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: You were on cross examination—
anything further?
MR. WOMBLE: I ’d Just like to clarify one point.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
q (By Hr. Womble) Mr. Chambers asked you if the
School Board had spent the sum of $75,000.00 of local money
for transportation for children in the city. Now, did you
understand that that was his question?
A No, I did not. I understood it to be in our
transportation system, not within the city.
Q Has any of that money been used for inner city
transportation of children?
A No, it has not. All of it has been in accordance
with the transportation allowed by the State law.
MR. WOMBLE: That’s all.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
FURTHER EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Vanore) Mr. Ward, do you know of any
State Board regulation which dictates the location of a
school building and where the school administrative unit
will locate a school building?
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A No, I do not.
Q Do you know of any State Board regulation which
requires that teachers employed by the local school adminis
trative unit be assigned to particular schools within the
school administrative unit?
A No, I do not.
0 Do you know of any State Board regulation which
requires that particular bus routes be employed by the
school administrative unit?
A No, I do not.
0 Do you know of any State Board regulation which
requires that pupils be assigned to particular schools
within the school administrative unit?
A No, I do not.
I®.. VANORE: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ligon?
MR. LIGON: No, sir, I have no questions.
THE COURT: There was some inference that the
county had plenty of money there, so that we might use
you as a witness instead of a lawyer.
Anything further here?
MR. CHAMBERS: We have nothing further.
THE COURT: You may come down. Let's have an
afternoon recess.
(Witness excused.)
(A brief recess was taken.)
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THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have any more
witnesses?
lui. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we have no further
evidence. V/e would like to renew our request that the Court
visit the schools that we have been putting in evidence
about. While it would take a little time, we feel that it
is very significant and important for the Court to have the
benefit of knowledge of the actual geographic situation
involved.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I could see that that
would be helpful, and I do not want to omit or fail to do
anything that I should do with reference to this case, but
it seems to me that right now this question is here on the
matter of a preliminary injunction - I want to be honest in
the matter - I don’t see how, on the merits, that there
could possibly be much more evidence, perhaps so; but it’s
here now on the matter of a preliminary injunction. I do
not - if I see it right here from you people - reach the
issue, the ultimate issue in the case, that is whether
there is a unitary system now. That must come on the final
decision on the merits. But again it would seem that
technically we are not at that place; this was here on the
motion for preliminary injunction. I realize that everybody
was called on rather short notice and that no final pre
trial order was entered, which was contrary to what we and
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you all usually do in these matters and all matters before
the Court, but in order to pass on the issue that Is
before me now I don't think that would be an absolute, do
you? Or do you agree with me on the fact that the issue
here is whether a preliminary injunction should be issued,
not the ultimate issue of whether there is a unitary system
or not. What do you think about that?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, it may be that at this
time it is not necessary for the Court to make what would
be a final or ultimate determination of the question of
whether or not a unitary system is now being operated, but
it does seem to me that it is necessary for the Court to
at least preliminarily consider whether this is now being
operated as a initary system as it relates to the action
that the Court will take with respect to this system at
this time. What I am getting at is this. As we will point
out in our oral argument, there are courts that have had to
consider whether or not a preliminary injunction will be
granted, and having passed on the question of injunction,
determine for example that they are operating a unitary
system and therefore no such order - injunction - is to be
issued. I think that the decision in Alexander versus
Holmes has also indicated that where a court finds that a
system is operated as a unitary system, that it is appro
priate for the court to continue surveillance over the case,
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to retain Jurisdiction, and during the coming months to
consider protest and proposed amendments that might be
appropriate with respect to the further operation of the
system in the future.
In other words, I think that as far as - particu
larly in this matter of pupil assignment, pupil enrollment
in the schools, it is clear from what the courts have said
and what they have not said that there is no pat definition
that a court can turn to and say, "Now, this system meets
constitutional standards; this system does not," and that
each case must be looked upon as an individual case. And
in each case there may be instances in which the court feels
that generally the system is or is not being operated as a
unitary system. Ikat there are specific areas for schools
where some further work may need to be done. So it does
seem to me toot the Court must at least give consideration
to this matter of a unitary system, even in passing on the
matter before the Court.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, what do you think I will
learn by - we'll say, by going to Atkins and going to
Reynolds and going to the others? I have right now Just a
maze of information that I came here Saturday and Sunday
looking through some of it, and this week, and I didn't get
through all of that. Of course, I have a general idea
about this. But Just what will I learn? You can’t see toe
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boundaries; they are out there somewhere. I will see a
student population, and I have a sheet here that tells me
what the population is there. I would see some faculty
members; I would see the physical plant. Tell me how that
would help me with the problem that I have to wrestle with
here? Y/hat do you say?
Mi., WOMBLE: Your Honor, one of the very real
questions in this case, and in all of hese cases, revolves
around the neighborhood concept, the proximity of school
to the population to be served. The fact that a child
under any system must get from an area to a school, it
seems to us that - maybe it wouldn't. I think it would be
desirable if the Court could actually go see all of these,
but it seems to us it would be important to at least visit
some representative areas - that would be both some that
would be within the confines of the central area, some that
would be more spread out, and what the Court would learn
would be - I guess - along the lines that Mr. Carlyle used
to teach us in the firm years ago, that there is Just no
substitute for going and seeing a place. Anytime that
any matter came up that he was involved in, where any
physical situation was involved, it was understood that you
went out to see it, where it was, where a wreck occurred
or where that land was being condemned, or any other case
that involved a physical facility.
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Now, here what the Court would, learn, you have
for example a map picture of Skyland School and Petree
School and Sedge Garden. By going to briefly visit the
Petree area, the Skyland area, and out to the Sedge Garden
area, the Court will get actual on-the-ground knowledge
that cannot possibly be obtained otherwise as to the real
distances, the routes of travel. In other words, to get a
feel and an understanding of what would be involved in any
major alteration of the present pupil attendance pattern.
THE COURT: Well, I of course - I don’t think I
was ever at Skyland or by Petree or by Sedge Garden. As
you say, I know them from the map, but what has been told
me, I know that Skyland is sitting there in a black communi
I know that Petree and Sedge Garden, out in the more rural
area where there are few black students, each one of them,
and I know that to get the racial mix into Petree and Sedge
Garden, the only way you can do it is to go over to Skyland
there, in that concentrated community, and select some
black students to haul out there - who, I don't know, and
which ones, and then that you have got to go over to Sedge
Garden and Petree and select some white students to haul
back over to Skyland.
Your people here - and I say your; I've just been
here a short while - they built the schools where the
families were. That is the old concept; maybe to some
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people outmoded and old-fashioned, maybe it is; but that
is what has been done and the schools were comparatively
small, and they were built to accommodate - I imagine when
Skyland was there, they built a school maybe to take care
of the pupil population plus some protected time, and
maybe that has been added to; I don’t remember. But that
is what we are wrestling with here.
And frankly, if in this system as I see it, if
any considerable racial mix comes about - and I would say to
you in all candor that it looks like that that is what is
going to have to come about - the only way that you ever
get them is for the extra transportation. The courts don’t
want to say "bus1'; they say ’’pairing", "clustering", "con
solidation", or other methods that will serve to mix the
students. The other method is busing and does away with
the neighborhood concept, which I don’t know - that does
violence to a lot of thinking of intelligent, good people -
good people both black and white. And I say to you - I ’m
not trying this case on letters - but there are black citi
zens and black students who take a counter-position to what
the plaintiffs do in this case. There are black teachers
who take a counter-position to what the plaintiffs do. There
are some whites who take a counter-position to what the
defendants say about it. So it is a problem. Let me think
about the matter of visiting the schools.
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First, Mr. Chambers, do you people have addi
tional evidence?
ME. CHAMBERS: No, Your Honor. I mentioned that
we had an exhibit that we wanted to introduce that had not
been duplicated. That would be Plaintiff's Exhibit 61.
That's the plan for teacher desegregation.
HIE COURT: Would that conclude your evidence?
MR. CHAHBEiu3: That concludes our case.
THE COURT: Any evidence for the county?
MR. LIGON: No, sir.
THE COURT: Anything for the state?
MR. VANORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 61 is received
into the evidence.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 61
for identification and was received
in evidence.)
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you all want to present
some oral argument on this matter, even if I don't go to
the schools? that would be your position, assuming that I
do not visit the schools?
ME. WOMBLE: Yes, sir, we would want to have oral
argument, and we would want also— we would like to have
the privilege of filing an additional brief with the Court.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Chambers, of course
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if there's oral argument there - I'm not indicating that
Just because they are presenting oral argument that you all
want to present some.
MR. CHAMBERS: We don't care to, Your Honor. If
the Court had some questions that the Court would like to
ask, we would be glad to respond. We have submitted a
brief, and the Court has received a copy of it.
THE COURT: I have your brief.
MR. CHAMBERS: We wouldn't care to elaborate any
further.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Womble, how much time?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I have not tried to
figure Just how much time it would take. I would think
somewhere between thirty minutes and an hour, probably not
over forty-five minutes.
THE COURT: Are you prepared now?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOMBLE: I take it we would follow the
plaintiffs, if they care to make any argument?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we will waive opening,
and if it becomes necessary we might have a few remarks in
response.
THE COURT: All right. I haven't asked the
county and the state; of course I'll hear from you if you
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have something. I'm going to rule on all of this when I
put it together. I'm going to rule on the motion for
summary judgment.
MR. LIGON; Y/e would like to make a brief pre
sentation, Your Honor, with respect to the motion. We do
not care to make oral argument with respect to the plaintiffs'
motion.
THE. COU. T: You, Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: Y/e have some comments that we would
like to make also. It shouldn't take over fifteen or
twenty minutes - with respect to our motion for summary
judgment.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, when you are through
here, you are going back to Charlotte?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, Your Honor. I have to go to
Raleigh. I would respectfully request to the Court that
if it's convenient for the Court for us to go ahead and try
to complete the matter today.
THE COURT: I realize that you and Mr. Vanore are
the only ones out of the city. Well, let's go ahead,
gentlemen. I'm going to give you an opportunity to present
some briefs; that might cause you to be a little more
abbreviated with your argument. Does anybody want the oral
argument?
MR. ROUBLE: With the assurance that we can file
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additional briefs, I think we can put everything we want
right in there.
THE; COURT: It is more valuable than it is telling
me about it out there, you know. If I have it in writing,
it is more valuable to me than to have it stated. I don't
want it indicated that I don't want to hear you; I'll be
glad to hear from you. How much time do you need to file
a brief?
MR. WOMBLE: We got an extension to the 30th of
January in the landfill case, and our time has almost run
out on that case.
THE COURT: And we've got the one here with Mr.
Hutchins and you.
MR. WOMBLc: We have that one that's on appeal,
and I just got the record back on the other landfill case;
it’s on appeal, and I don't want to delay this, and I *v»<r.w
it would be better from our standpoint, as well as the
expediting of it, for us to get this put together and in
your hands as quickly as possible.
THE COURT: You have a brief or briefs in already.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, we have a preliminary one, but
we would want to very carefully put together what we
believe are facts in our evidence and supports for authority.
THE COURT: Ten days?
MR. WOMBLE: Ten days, I think.
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THE COURT: Will you people want to present
argument or brief?
MR. LIGON: Your Honor, I think that in the case
of the Board of County Commissioners, to file an additional
brief within that ten days, the same ten-day period, would
be satisfactory.
THE COURT: Mr. Vanore?
MR. VANORE: I think that we would do likewise
also. I don't want to be the only one in the crowd that
presents oral argument.
THE COURT: I won't hold that against you.
MR. VANORE: They might though.
1®. WOMBLE: With our brief that we would file,
would the Court like to have proposed findings and conclu
sions?
THE COURT: I would.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't want to be
unreasonable, but I would like to object to the ten days.
I have a problem myself. As we see the problem, the
question is whether the Board is to do something. After
that question is answered, either affirmatively or negative
ly, we would have some determination about what is to follow
and when. As it is now, I don't know what if anything is
being done to prepare a plan, and our position is that some
plan must be prepared and must be implemented, and that's
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why we asked at the earlier hearing for some deadlines for
complete compliance; with what might be complete compliance,
if the Court decides something should be done, ten days
would put us into February for submission of briefs and
the determination of whether something else needs to be
done which might put us into March, and then there would
be some determination of what is presented, if something
is required, is adequate, and then the problem of the time
for implementing whatever is finally approved by the Court,
and I know the Court has read the decisions of the Supreme
Court about the immediacy. And if we have that initial
determination of whether this Board had to do something
else, we certainly would have no objection to the ten days.
But with that still being in the balance, we think that ten
days might be too long. If eight weeks, the thing to run
the gamut, the filing of the lawsuit and the final deter
mination by the courts and implementation, we will run by
the ten weeks.
And I recall the other day the Court extended
time for the Board to file a final plan, if the Court
decided that such should be submitted, until February 26th,
I believe it was, or February 16th.
THE COURT: February 16th.
MR. CHAMBERS: But in the previous order the
Court stated if the Court decides something has to be done,
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the Board would have to submit a plan within ten days, and
we accordingly— we would register an objection to the ten
days, which would put a burden on us, too. It would put a
burden on us, too, but we don't think it should be done.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, have a seat; I want
to talk to you a little bit. Everybody who has a case in
court thinks his case is the most important, Just like the
people at P. Lorillard that you are pursuing. You lawyers
have your cases and your clients pursue you about it, and
they all think they are important. No credit to myself,
but a young girl was injured, out on vacation over the
holidays, and we heard her case so that she could be here.
We have many, many cases. I have arranged my schedule so
we could hear the evidence in this matter; it has lasted
much longer than I anticipated. Those people who have been
put off think their matters are important also. On Friday
here, we had some more hearings; next week we continue.
You people have, as good attorneys, introduced - I don't
know - added up, maybe seventy-five exhibits in here. I
presume you all put them in for a purpose, that is for me
to look at, to study and analyze. I have always done that.
I know that this is important to your clients, and I know
it is important to the School Board, but I know also that
you all would not want any court - the shoe is on this foot
today; it might be on the other foot tomorrow - to make
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some ruling without having given the matter full considera
tion. A lot of these exhibits are written exhibits, and
I have had no opportunity to study them.
If the plaintiffs have rights that are being
deprived, they are entitled to have those corrected. But
I cannot see that to give a court time enough to look
through and make some mature consideration and some mature
judgment would be out of order in this or any other case
that comes before me. We have people waiting for pre
liminary injunctions to be heard now. It's a day when
everybody, it seems, has lateral remedy, some injunctive
relief, that they wish. I do not feel that the relief that
is requested is of the urgency that the Court should
abandon its responsibility to consider the matter, and I
regret that we can't give instant justice. But even the
slowness of the law sometimes banks the fires of passion
and prejudice.
We fuss about courts being slow, but sometimes
even that has its good effect. But as I say, we have
gotten into it in what I would call record time - I don't
think we made any record getting through with the evidence;
it has been long and slow and tedious, and I am sure you
all are tired, and I'm tired, and we just must have time to
give what has been presented some consideration and hope
fully correct anything that is incorrect.
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MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'd like to renew the
motion I made on - I think it was January the 9th, per
taining to some direction, and I can appreciate the Court's
reluctance to make a determination before you make it, but
we are still looking at the lack of a plan and preparation
by the School Board, and we'd like to renew the motion -
and as to the case of Carter on December 17th - that some
instruction to the Board to either be prepared to submit a
plan forthwith if the Court should decide one should be
directed, to submit one by a certain day. I think in
normal operation of the school system, they would be con
sidering some plan, and here there is a committee, I under
stand, that is working; there is no definite time that the
report is supposed to be submitted back, although I under
stand they're supposed to meet tonight, the committee is to
meet, and then sometime later perhaps report to the Board.
But there is nothing definite as to time here, and because
of it, we would again like to renew the motion.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I've ordered them to
file the one for '70'71 by February 16th, and I will put
it in the order, that within ten days of any order they
would submit a plan, and I presume that at least some
preparation in the event - after looking at this - I should
decide that they must now rework their system, that that
was the purpose for putting the 10-day period in there, but
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I must first decide if I am going to require them to submit
a plan to issue, and that's what I propose to do at this
time, and that of course is what all of our evidence has
been about. And they say they are in compliance and you
say with equal urgency and candor and sincerety that you
are not, you are operating a dual system; that it would
seem to me, and that is contrary to what Mr. V/omble says,
that on the prelirainary aspect - and I think we are just
talking about really a technicality, that we've heard the
case on its merits, and you agreed to that and the defendant
did not, that we would hear it on its merits. The defendant
did not see fit to do so, so it came here - just looking
at it as lawyers - on the preliminary injunction aspect.
Thinking about it over the night it looked to me as maybe -
as to whether it is truly a unitary system or not was not
the appropriate ruling just now; that in a preliminary
injunction ordinarily you don't answer the issue on the
merits. But this is somewhat an unusual situation that we
have. It's unusual in this district inasmuch as we never
had this protracted a matter on a preliminary injunction.
If we had just one-tenth this much time to spend on pre
liminary injunctions, we couldn't possibly with eight
judges keep up with them, /nd I am not complaining about
that. Any time you start talking about children of people,
you are talking about matters that are close to their hearts,
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nnci that is just as true of one race as the other, and it
should be given attention, and I expect to do just that.
All right. Reflect counsel’s motion in the
record, counsel for plaintiffs* motion in the record, and
that the Court will take the motion under consideration.
All right. Let's recess until Friday morning at
9:30.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled
matter was closed.)
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CERTIFICATE
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
COUNTY OF FORSYTH
I, Graham Erlacher, Notary Public in and for the
County of Forsyth, State of North Carolina, and Official
Court Reporter in the Middle District of North Carolina, do
hereby certify:
That on the 9th day of January, 1970, there appeared
before me the foregoing witnesses in the above-entitled case;
That the said testimony was then taken at the time and
place mentioned, beginning at 10:00 o'clock a.m. on January
9, 1970;
That the said witnesses were duly sworn and examined
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth in said case;
That the foregoing testimony was taken by me on steno-
mask and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my super
vision, and the foregoing eight hundred eighty-four (884)
pages contain a full, true and correct transcription of all
the testimony of said witnesses;
That the undersigned Graham Erlacher is not of kin or
in any wise associated with any of the parties to said
cause of action or their counsel, and that I am not interested in the event thereof.
c^IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this
~________ day 0f April, 1970.
^ Cl '‘l__ / t f .— f , / U -:. - y
Official Court Reporter
My commission expires:
August 23, 1970
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