Trial Transcript 2
Public Court Documents
April 22, 1965
392 pages
Cite this item
-
Case Files, Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board. Trial Transcript 2, 1965. cf15f137-d2fd-f011-8406-0022482cdbbc. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/be702ce4-e318-4227-aaed-b79e3554c751/trial-transcript-2. Accessed February 20, 2026.
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: ten years ago?
2 A I have been told that it was nothing but a swamp.
3 Q Do you have any idea as to what the site for
i 3 those schools cost?
5 A No,.sir, I don't.
6 Q Do you have any idea as to the cost of filling
Z either the Moton and/or the Dunn sites, the Edwards site,
8 or the Carver Junior site?
9 A No, I don't.
10 Q Do you have any problems with fill in Illinois
1 in school construction?
12 A Some minor problems.
é 13 Q Are your school houses constructed on piles?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Have you a solid rock foundation to construct
1 your schoolhouses on? Do you know?
1 A Mainly clay, but it is solid =--
is Q It is solid, though?
is A Yes, sir.
a Q Do you have any idea how much the foundations and
2A the piling costs in the construction of a schoolhouse in a
swampy area in the City of New Orleans?
i
23 A No, but by the same token, I don't believe that
9% you have any idea as to what it costs to put a heating
25 plant necessary to heat down to twenty below zero; and in
EE RE” 3° Bt
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New Orleans I feel that this is a relative figure here,
and I am not saying that absolutely so many thousands of
classrooms should have been built, and I am just indicating
that there seems to have been, or I think you have kept
pace with the enrollment here.
I think that I have just said that there have been
enough resources available to build the classrooms for
these children, and there is just an unequal distribution
in assignment of children to the facilities that have
been built,
Q Doctor, I want the record to show that I readily
admit that I haven't the vaguest idea how much it costs to
build schoolhouses and classrooms in Illinois, but I,
however, have not taken the witness stand to qualify as
an expert, as have you.
Now, I show you a document which has been intro-
duced and marked as Exhibit R, and in dividing the $30,000.0
per classroom into $43,000,000.00, did you take into
consideration the cost of site acquisition that had to come
out of that $43,000,000,007?
A The figure of $30,000.00 was assumed to cover
the cost of site, $30,000.00 per classroom.
Q What was the basis for that assumption, sir?
A Well, we are building schools for about $20,000.00
a little over this, in our particular area, and this is an
100
;
: assumption, and I indicated as such when I introduced the =--
0 Q But you haven't the vaguest idea, have you, of
the ==
3
NS 2 MR, NABRIT: I think the witness is entitled to
4 finish his answer to the question.
5 THE WITNESS: I admittedly made an assumption
/ there which I feel was reasonably accurate.
8 If you have information that I don't have that
3 indicates that it costs a great deal more than $30,000.00
10 a classroom, then I would say that you can use other figures)
H but I still feel that even if you use other figures,
io $30,000.00 is still going to have enough clearance so as
¢ i to cover those charges. That was the only point that I
was making.
14
is BY MR, ROSENBERG:
be Q In your assumption, Doctor, did you assume that
= no portion of the $43,000,000,00 was needed to renovate
i schoolhouses which were in need of renovation?
is A I didn't consider that element at all.
Q Supposing, sir, that $10,000,000.00 was used to
20
| renovate and modernize the existing classrooms, would that
215
not affect your figure of having money available for 50,000
|
| new pupil stations?
23
A That is correct.
24
MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, there is in
25
i a er 101
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evidence as I recall a statement indicating the status of
the building fund of the Orleans Parish School Board as of
December 31, 1963, and I have in mind a similar one for '64
and I would like to show this to the witness and ask him if
he has seen such an analysis,
THE WITNESS: I have not seen that,
THE COURT: Was it given to him when he visited
the School Board office?
MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, everything
that he asks for was given to him when he visited the
School Board office, to the best of my knowledge.
BY MR. ROSENBERG:
Q I ask you, Doctor, if this does not indicate that
a total of $11,049,375.33 was spent on buildings and equip-
ment. Excuse me -- I mean for the renovation of existing
structures?
A Yes, it is true,
May I ask if there were any additional classrooms
created through this renovation, or was this all renovation
of existing rooms?
MR, ROSENBERG: Excuse me, sir, but I can't answer
the question because I am not on the witness stand, but I
just wanted to call this to your attention, and I ask you,
Doctor, isn't it pertinent in an examination into the amount
of dollars available, to find out what the dollars available
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were spent for and where needed?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is pertinent.
THE COURT: Proceed.
BY MR. ROSENBERG:
Q In preparing this exhibit, sir, did you acquaint
yourself with whether or not there was any backlog in the
number of classrooms that were needed in this system in 1954?
A No,
Q Well, let me give you another hypothet; supposing
a school system requires additional pupil stations for 20,000
students in 1954, and then they float bonds and build class-
room stations, do these classroom stations that are built
accommodate the increase in enrollment? Or do they not
accommodate the past backlog of overcrowding plus the
increase?
A They would have to accommodate the past backlog
and the increase, :
Q Were you aware of the fact, Doctor, that the
United States was at war between 1941 and 1945?
A Yes,
Q Do you know what effect that had on the construction
r
industry and the construction program of schools?
A I am aware of that.
Q What effect did it have, sir?
A It slowed it down; but, of course, when I look at
103
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the population trend, you realize that that was a period
in which we had a break in ‘population too, I am not
talking about New Orleans because I know that nationally it
wasn't significant because population trends were different
for that period.
Q What happened to your maintenance program?
A Well, there were serious problems, I realize that.
THE COURT: Actually, you couldn't get any material
and you couldn't get anything except on certification by
the Government, and they were almost impossible to get.
Proceed,
BY MR, ROSENBERG:
Q Doctor, I refer again to your Exhibit R, and I
notice that you multiplied the number of classrooms that it
purports to show could be built, by 35 pupils, and how did
i | you select that 35, sir?
A That is the maximum number that you were permitted
to put in your classrooms by the state regulations.
Q You would recommend putting that many for your
secondary classrooms also?
A Well, the majority of your enrollment has been
in the elementary level, so the majority of yourclassroom
needs have been at that level.
Q Are you familiar with the amount of $43,000,00
available in bond money that went into the construction of
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secondary classrooms?
A No, I didn't have those figures.
™
o
d
A It would seem to me that if you had figures that
showed that conclusion was incorrect, that I would certainly
accept those figures, and I would draw another conclusion.
I felt that for a number of reasons, in my thinking, it
showed that you had development resources here that gave you
the capacity to solve the problem, and you are solving the
problem, I see examples of it being solved in terms of
improvements, even from last year to this year there were
certain improvements in class averages. I cannot recall
them exactly, but they came out of the data that I examined,
and I use those simple comparisons, or they were designed
to show just a simple index as to capacity.
I understand. C
o
LJ
)
Well, isn't that a pertinent figure for you to hava?
I understand, Doctor, and so you won't think that
I am being antagonistic, the purpose of my cross examination
is to bring out these facts so that you would be aware of
them, so that your testimony will be correct.
Now, I am asking you, had you considered that a
|
|
|
3 : : k | =~ ya < fo wg | portion of this $43,000,000.00 was used for the construction |
of secondary buildings, would that not decrease the amount
4 of classroom space from the figures shown on your exhibit?
A Certainly.
1 Q What would be a proper number of pupils to
2 consider for classrooms, for say junior highschools?
3 A That is a very difficult figure to give because
% 4 of the different kinds of gymnasia which will accommodate
5 a great deal more than any laboratory experience, and so
6 forth, but there are certain stages that can only accommo-
7 date 20, and others can accommodate 90 children. So that
8 1s a very difficult figure to use, or for me to come up with
9 a definite =-
10 Q Well, do you have many junior highschools in
11 your school district?
12 A Yes, sir.
A 13 Q How many, sir?
14 A Two.
15 | Q Do they have gymnasia?
16 A Yes, sir,
17 Q Now, the cost of a gymnasium, should not be
18 || deducted from this $43,000,000, 00 when you go to figure cost
19 || per classroom, should it?
20 | A Not necessarily, because that is a teaching station
a | and it accommodates certain number of children during the
® bs | day. And these are just figures that I felt there was a
2 | significant difference here, and it didn't rea lly == I
9d | just illustrated the point. I am sure that the kind of
0% | a nalysis you are calling for could easily be done, but it |
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y
PA
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o
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would take time.
® Q How many students in the junior highschools in
fr p
your digrict, sir?
A Approximately 1600,
Q How many teachers in those schools?
A Approximately 75. I am just ==
Q Whatis that pupil=-teacher ratio?
A I would have to, or you would have to give me
some time to figure this. I don't have these fig ures == » o
n
Q Well, we have plenty of time, sir, and would you
please figure it?
A Well, if you let me get the exact figures, becaus
I don't have them, and if you'll give me maybe ten minutes
to think a little bit, because those figures that I gave
you came right off of the top of my head, and I would have
to think a minute about the situation, and the staff, going
together, because there is a little difference in the two
schools ~~
May I request a ten minute recess?
THE COURT: Yes, because I think that the figures
may be important.
Court will be at recess for ten minutes, and that
it will give the doctor an opportunity to make his
®
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(o
%}
(After recess.)
THE COURT: Proceed, sir.
BY MR, ROSENBERG:
—
Q Doctor, how many teachers do you have in your two
junior highschools in Illinois?
A Approximately 75.
How many classrooms do you have? How many rooms?
A I would have to estimate, in the neighborhood of
fifty. Fifty two, possibly, what we consider home room
sections.
Q What do you estimate the average pupil-teacher
ratio in your classrooms, in your junior highschools?
A I think I indicated before that it would be under
20, and it would come out here about 18.6, or so.
Q Do you have any sections that have over 307
A I am sure we do,
Q Why would that be?
A Well, we have remedial sections tht run down and
go down into the low twenties, and this with an average
class size of around 28, which is our class size average
for the district, and you are bound to have some classes
over 30, and some classes considerably smaller.
Q Doctor, in the larger junior highschools than
the two in your district, what would be your opinion as an
expert, as to whether or not the teachers could be better
rere
108
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utilized as compared to a small junior highschool?
A I think they could be better utilized in a larger
school,
Q Does this indicate that the children attending
those schools where the teachers are better utilized, are
getting an inferior educational opportunity?
A No.
Q Then, if you consider those factors, -- your
poster exhibit, which I mark for identification 1955 Plaintiff
Exhibit H, doesn't tell the full story, does it?
A That one refers to the elementary schools, and I
think the other exhibit refers to the junior high, the one
with the two long columns, green, and I believe the green
column and the red column, the next one, the third one
behind that one (indicating), and I think that the one you
are referring to, because junior high is over on the right
hand side of that =--
Q And is that the one with 267% difference? a
A Yes. That one is just elementary teachers there,
regular classroom teachers, elementary.
Now that one is pupil-teacher ratio on the right
hand side of that chart.
Q Yes.
And we are referring here to this Plaintiff's
L
R
Exhibit G, and I say to you then that that doesn't tell the
109
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o
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]
full story, does it?
A It illustrated a significant difference.
Q Significant as to what?
A As to the quality, or it indicated the difference
H
h
of the allocation of resources, if nothing else, and there
are significantly more teachers available per pupil in the
white junior highschools than there are in the Negro junior
highschools.
L
L
Q Sir, supposing that a number of families moved
from a crowded uptown section in the City of New Orleans out
to the suburbs, and now there are a sufficient number of
educables in the suburbs to require the construction of a
new school, and what effect would that have on the employment
of teachers? By that I mean, would it not be necessary to
employ teachers for that new school?
A Yes.
Q Would it necessarily follow that teachers could be
dismissed from the classrooms in the schools from the
neighborhoods where those people moved, assuming that they
moved from widely scattered neighborhoods?
A I am not sure that I understand your question.
Q Supposing two students from an urban district
moved from that district out to the suburbs, so that the
number of children that were in that classroom from whence
they moved, was reduced from let's say 32 to 30; would it
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not be necessary to retain a teacher in the school from
whence they moved to teach the children who were still in
the classroom?
A I think the only way I can answer that is to
deal in averages, for instance, if you had a 35 teacher
school in the urban area, and you lost two pupils from each
classroom because of moving out to the suburbs, then it
would be possible to reassign two teachers to a suburban
school and have a balance,
Obviously, if they only move out of one classroom
in the urban area to one classroom in the suburban area,
it would be very difficult to facilitate any kind of transfexn
of teachers, but in term of averages, when the enrollment
in some school goes down, it is possible to transfer personnel
out, and I think with the upgrading concept, most of your
work towards that, and I think that the people are beginning
to accept much better this, and it is much easier to do than |
| i
it was a few years ago when you had to have a label, and
every year, either the first or the second grades, and
these labels are all disappearing now.
Q So you would then combine all the children from
the lst grade through the 6th grade, and divide the number
by 30, regardless of what grade they were in, and you would |
|
assign one teacher for every 30 pupils?
A In my judgment, that is an equitable way to assign
|
111
1 staff, and that is the way we do it in our system.
2 Q You have 6th grade students in the same classroom
3 with 3rd grade students?
* 4 A No; you have pushed it right to the extreme.
5 Very often we have lst grade children working with children
6 that have been in school for three years because they are
7 working at the same level, and there are very few, unusual
8 cases where the spread is even greater, and in most cases
9 it is only a one or two year age spread. And this is
10 happening more and more, and the point is that when I
11 make a decision as to how many teachers I am going to
12 assign to a building in my particular system, I make it
a 13 on the basis of averages. And I think that you can test
14 that, and obviously there will be one or two pupils difference
15 at times, but in the assignment of personnel we assign on
16 the basis of average.
17 Q In your district, Doctor, have you experienced
18 a shift of population?
19 A Ours has been mainly an increase of population,
20 Q Have you had any situation where people have
21 moved in large numbers from one area to the other?
29 A No.
23 Q Have you made any study as to whether that is
24 taking place in New Orleans?
25 A No. |
112
1 Q Isn't that a pertinent area for investigation?
2 A I am sure that it is an important area, but I
3 took a look at the system, obviously in a relatively short
® 4 time, as it exists right now, and the kind of differences
» that I tried to point out are differences that exist right
6 now, I am sure that the trends have caused some of the
7 differences, and I recognize that, and that the solutions
8 to these differences are not simple things. I won't claim
9 that, but I think that there are ~-- what I am claiming is
10 that these things could be worked out a little faster than
1 they are. I just have that opinion.
12 HE COURT: I believe that you are getting right
13 around to the Court's viewpoint because I think that these
14 administrative problems are extremely serious =--
15 THE WITNESS: I think they are, but I think that
16 I saw evidence that there are many fine things, administrative-
17 wise, and, for instance, if I had this little book for my
18 system, if I had had it I would havebeen able to answer
19 your question right away. And this is an idea that we are
20 going to put in, and, in fact, right away, in my system.
21 In fact, I have gotten plenty of ideas from over here.
& 22 THE COURT: Prior to World War II we had a pitiful]
23 situation here as far as housing is concerned =-- |
24 | THE WITNESS: Yes, but I think you have the re- |
25 | sources and the know how to accelerate this process to where
ba Sin |
113
0
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17
N
o
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o
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24
we went in that area, if I recall correctly, and it is quite
it would be fair to all involved.
THE COURT: But it does create for the schools
administrative problems, of course =--
THE WITNESS: That is what we are hired for, and
that is why we are being paid as administrators.
Q Doctor, did you make any study as to what the
enrollment was at Lafayette, Lee, Lusher, and Audubon
Elementary Schools, 10 or 15 years ago? §
A No, I did not,
Q Did you make any study as to what effect the
desegregation program had on such schools as Audubon School
and McDonogh-10, let us say?
A I am aware that those schools are integrated
schools, and that particularly in the case of Audubon, as I
recall it, almost fifty-fifty, and if I remember McDonogh=-10
correctly, it is what, about sixty-forty, maybe? Or seventy-
thirty? So that I can see that these are two examples of
where a greater amount of integration has taken place.
Q Are you familiar with the neighborhood of Audubon
. f |
School? |
A I have driven through that area.
Q Will you describe it to the Court, please?
A We didn't go right past the Audubon School, but |
1
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114
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11
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fa hy Ca - * s RK oti . | —~ -° oy 3
Q Well, you describe it in one, or at least in the b J
Hone western section, where it would be upper level housing?
A TJ 1.2 Jeu Vi ue Ci BA Wor EY ve van ii nian ms 0, PRL
A We didn € get 1nto the far western zone OX that
1.2 3 Toe of FH, I
particular school zone, and we did not drive through
I understand from the person that was conducting
our tour, that that was a different type of economic level
neighborhood than the one we drove through on the eastern
edg
oO
e of the Audubon District. That is what I recall.
$= 1 Q Do you know how many blocks from the Audubon
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towards Carrollton Avenue?
A No, I don't. I would have to examine the map.
A I would have to look at one of the maps to answer
the question.
mi | og 41 1 2% 72] wa he 4 ~ rh a Go FR |
That doesn't have the boundary line on it, and
that was one of the districts that =-- well, that map just
ha A -1 art 1c
had the schools.
0) T 1 v TC T +1 i "TY Co 3 we £97 1 T Pe gl x7 Ne
4 1 show you thls map, Slr, and lL ask you, UL.
Bardwell, how many blocks is it between the Audubon School
and the McDonogh 247
A TS «py 1 Yin mls CRIA Cy - et...
A Five blocks, it looks like.
Q Now, do you know where the district line is
10
11
12
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16
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20
21
23
24
25
adopted by the Orleans
| A I would have to look on the other plan to be
Q As of 1964, it was on Lowerline Street, was
not?
A It is -- yes, I see it, just a block away.
) Now, what would you suggest, in trying to rel
the boundaries between Audubon, which is a for h
o
d
erly all
school and McDonogh=-24, which is a formerly all-Negro s
with the zone lines being one block away from Audubon?
A Again, I can't =-- I am not in the position to
suggest specific boundaries, and I don't claim to be
I would have to have the pupil placement maps, and I re:
don't understand that question because Audubon is admit
an integrated school,
I would think there is a condition
F
h
) In order to get more Negroes into Audubon Sct
ed the district, would you not?
A Or use busses.
Q I show you that which was annexed to the answers
to the interrogatories, and it purports to be a change
Parish School Board on April 9th, V
and it was marked for identification in answer to the in-
terrogatories as OPSB-52, and I ask you, does that not sh
i
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, and
1 there where the
boundaries lines have achieved a ‘high degree of integration,
hool,
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chool,
tedly
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that the
Cherokee
>>
boundaries of the
How far from Lowe
Two blocks.
In other words,
blocks closer toward
1 ng vs 7} wv ~ pm ny sh
nere, and we can never
self can't be separatec
HE COURT: Can
constitute discrimination?
HE WITNESS: The transfers?
'HE COURT: No,
Now, how far from
Audubon School was
6
I
you answer the
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moved
Cherokee
10
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ry | should those children be discouraged from attending that
A I think that it would be important to preserve
the first alternative, the white children in the school, if
I understand the question correctly. That would be my
judgment,
Q Do you have any idea as to the custom and mores
of this community for the past 100 or 150 years?
A Only vaguely; I wouldn't purport to be completely know-
ledgeable at all, I have some idea -- what do you mean, some
£ of the various kinds of ethic groups, and so forth, that
Ee
you have in this community? But am not completely know-
Q So then you would not be in a position to testify
as to what, in your opinion, would happen to the white
students at Audubon if 500 Negro students were to be put
into Audubon from the Desire Street project, do you?
A No, I don't know whether that has been proposed.
Q Do you have any idea what the achievement level
of the students attending Moton and Dunn are compared with
the achievement level at Lusher?
A No.
THE COURT: For the record, what is the ratio
+ between white and Negroes at Lusher, and also the ratio at
Moton and Dunn?
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2]
22
23
24
25
MR. ROSENBERG: At Lusher we have 54 colored
children and 317 white, but there again, that doesn't tell
the whole story. And to answer your other question, the
other half, Moton and Dunn are Negro schools over on the
other side of town, not in that neighborhood.
THE COURT: Are there any white students in
those schools?
MR, NABRIT: No, none, and those are all Negro.
None in the schools, all Negro faculties, and a large number
of Negro pupils, and I don't think they have any white
children in between --
MR. ROSENBERG: Moton has one, ==
MR, NABRIT: There is testimony in the transcript
from the last session about one child with a white birth
certificate that lived in the Desire Street Housing Project. C
d
s
MR, ROSENBERG: If your Honor will look at page
5 and page 12 of Facts and Finances you will see that Lusher
School had 44 white children in kindergarten, and 11 Negroes
in the lst grade at Lusher,
THE COURT: I see the figure in here.
MR, ROSENBERG: 57 whites and 16 Negro, and in
the second grade 47 whites and 11 colored, and at the 3rd
grade level 33 whites and 13 colored,
The figure, however, on Audubon, may it please the
Court, the figures show that there were 18 colored in
1 kindergarten, and only 6 white in the lst grade, and at
2 Audubon there were l4 white and 17 Negroes, and in the 2nd
3 grade 11 white and 9 Negroes, and in the lst grade 11
al 4 white and 7 Negroes, and the 4th, 5th and 6th there were
5 12 and 8 respectively =--
6 THE COURT: With no Negroes in the upper grades?
7 MR, ROSENBERG: Not yet, no, sir,
8 BY MR. ROSENBERG:
9 Q Doctor, do you have any areas in your school
10 district which are either wooded or swampy or uninhabited?
11 A No, not really, but we have a large forest preserve
12 area, but this is public land.
13 Q Are you familiar with the number of educable
14 children, for example, that is shown on one of your slides
15 as bussed to McDonogh-=45?
16 A No, I am not, because that was information that I
17 just didn't have time to get.
18 Q If I told you, or it later developed that this
19 contained thousands of acres of swamps that were simply shown
20 on the map because the map has to be filled up, it would
21 affect your testimony, would it not?
4 29 | A Not really, because that was just indicated bussing
23 areas, and I think the main point of that exhibit was not,
24 | or did not rest on that fact, or in my opinion.
25 Q Did you see the Rosenwald School, which you testified
AE A am aT |
120
1 about?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q Do you know the history of the Rosenwald School?
% 4 A No.
5 Q Do you know anything about the neighborhood in
6 which it is located?
7 A That is a neighborhood that I was not able to
8 traverse,
9 Q In making suggestions relative to the zones around
10 it, wouldn't it be important to know that?
11 A Remember, that's an example of bussed children
12 almost entirely,
3 13 Q I understand.
14 A So that I feel it wasn't important for me to
15 make sure that I wasn't proposing that children be walked
16 || across the expressway, Or a canal, or something, so I felt
17 that wasn't one that I had to be sure that I visited per-
18 sonally because it hinged on the bus factor,
19 Q 1 see.
2 How far away from Rosenwald is McDonogh=-457?
21 A Again, I have to examine the plan.
PY 55 Q Would you?
waa A About one block.
24 Q If the Orleans Parish School Board was interested
0% | in preserving racial segregation, would it have built a
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and that 1s the only indication because those are
zones. That is a dual zone, and it is --
Q Doctor, if I thought that you coul
esegregation problem in Orleans Parish after
hours of study, I wouldn't be cross examining
agree with what you are saying Lig 0
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But now, let me ask you something else, on
41 Junior Highschool, do you know where that is locate
A No, I didn't visit that school either.
Q Supposing I told you that that is located ac
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A It certainly would, yes.
) Do you know whether or not the Orleans Parish
School Board has actually employed real estate appraisers to
bring in an appraisal on a site in the area presently served
by the Lafon School?
A I wasn't aware of that.
Q If you did know that, would it make any difference
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"a a - ~~ 4
ovVOoSsSSet
1 A It is perhaps roughly comparable -- I don't
2 know Syosset too well. I would guess that there was much
3 more general wealth in Syosset, and much more -- no, I think
® 4 that I could answer that more clearly and I would say that
5 there are probably fewer economically disadvantaged people
6 in Syosset than there are in Long Beach.
7 Long Beach has a number of families who were
8 relief recipients and culturally and economically dis-
9 advantaged, and I have a feeling, and I am not certain about
10 this, that Syosset, on the whole, has an economically
1 advantaged population.
12 Q What was the number of educables in the system
® 13 on Long Island that you were connected with?
14 A Somewhere between five and sic thousand.
5. Q Of that number what percentage were Negroes?
16 A I may be somewhat off the point on this one, Mr.
17 Counsellor, because the question of color at that time was
18 not a pressing one in Long Beach, but I would estimate that
19 it was perhaps somewheres close to 10%, or something less
20 than 87%.
21 Q How many teachers were there employed in the
® 22 system?
23 A It must have been perhaps 300.
24 Q 300 teachers altogether in the system?
25 A Yes, that is right.
233
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1 extended to the remaining children in the second grade
2 who had not made a choice of desegregated schools in 1960.
3 The dejure and defacto operation of the May 16, 1960 order
® 4 negates any implication that a right of lateral transfer
5 was intended or expected,
6 On April 9th, 1962, Judge Wright entered the
7 second order. This order has three basic elements: (a)
8 that children in grades one through six were to have the
9? option of choosing a Negro or white school nearest their
10 home; and (b) the transfer of students from one school to
11 another without consideration of race. And this was also
12 included in the order of May 16, 1960. And, (c) under
w 13 Judge Wright's order the Pupil Placement Law could not be
14 used as long as there are dual attendance districts.
15 At the outset this Court wants to point out that
16 unlike the May 16, 1960 order, which was affirmed by the
17 Fifth Circuit and the Supreme Court, this order never went
18 into effect due to the motion for a new trial which, being
19 timely filed, arrested the execution of the judgment. How-
26 ever, its terms in no way gave or suggested to give the
%i right of lateral transfer in a child in any grade.
, 22 The plan would have allowed any chil
d in the
bo elementary grades one through six to choose his school
notwithstanding where he had been a
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4 a year option was a transitory plan and that eventually
4 New Orleans would return to running its schools precisely
:
as it wanted, except without separate racial assignments.
> For example, the Court might decide to eliminate dual
6 districts in all of the grades, even before the option plan
7 reached those grades. In that case it would, of course, be
8 proper to use the Pupil Placement Law for assignment and
y transfer, because the option order was not in effect in
10 that year because the plan had not progressed to that year.
4 The whole plan was to give the School Board and the people
12 | of this city time in which to work out a formidable program.
w 13 | In summary of the opinion rendered by this
4 | Court at that particular time, the idea of the Ellis plan
15 was transition and desegregation. The essence of segregated
|
16 schools is the dual school system. The option plan was
17 | merely transitory to get a defacto elimination of dual
18 | school systems and still let the Board work up new school
19 | systems in the meantime. Therefore, under the orders of |
20 | the Circuit Court o Appeals, and what we have been operating
2 | under in the City of New Orleans, has been a transitory |
p plan,
23 | The Fifth Circuit, on August the 6th, 1962, in |
24 a decision recorded at 308 Fed 2nd, page 492, maintained |
25 seven basic elements of desegregation requirements: (1) |
-375-
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first grade in September, i
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Student one higher grade each
the second grade in 1963.
Ch
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could transfer to formerly white or
nearest their Nn ome *
The - . pst “hha RA ave i [in
power of the Board to transfer on non-
5 ~ nd > - ys g of « po > 4 3 racial grounds was made unconditional.
grade regardle
Children desegregated by the old original
oy Judge Wright, could not be reseg-
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: NZ 7
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o PT. Po s A +0 ci11thm- - 1 are ~T : 7 schoo
Ww as oO Y i ere | | LU OULD L UO a JA a 1 OL S ing le Dw CLIUU L
Court of Appeals went further than the Court
that the Louisian Placement Act 43
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administrative buffer allowed in the Wright-Ellis orders.
(5) Negro children who attended formerly all-
white schools since 1960, and '61, and 1961 and '62, and
Negro children who are registered for attendance in formerly
all-white schools in 1962 and '63 and subsequent years,
may not be transferred to an all-Negro school against
their wishes. If the transfer of white students from
such schools would result in resegregation, the Negro
children shall be afforded an opportunity to attend a
nearby formerly all-white school without being subjected to
tests for transfer under the Pupil Placement Act.
This was the Court of Appeals protective order
to keep the Board from resegregating the children that
went through the initial desegregation of the schools,
and those, some 200 children, are presently registered
under the orders issued by this Court. The effect is
generally that the children presently registered are
frozen in some formerly all-white schools, The Pupil
Placement Act may not be applied to them, and if they are
transferred for any reason, it must be to an all-white
school if they so desire. It is up to the individual
child. Moreover, the order applies only to the twelve
children already in the higher grades and thus presently
registered. It applies to no one else and will follow those
children through their years in school. It probably is not
Eo i -379-
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
23
24
25
a very substantial change, but it is done in order that
equity might be given to those who applied to register in
1960.
In September of 1963, the dual system of separate
geographical districts for the first and second grades
were abolished. In September, 1964 the dual system shall
be abolished for the first five grades. That was the Court
of Appeals order at that particular time. And, each year
thereafter, as each succeeding higher grade is desegregated,
the dual system shall be abolished contemporaneously there-
with. The dual system was ordered by the Court of Appeals,
as ordered by this Court, to be abolished contemporaneously
therewith. As the dual system is abolished, the Board was
required to submit to the Court for its approval the maps
and plans for the single system of geographical school
districts. This is identical in aims, purposes and effect,
to the order of this Court, except for the modifications
as pointed out, and except for the fact that in 1964 the
Court of Appeals ordered two additonal grades to be placed
in a single zone system, in other words, in 1964-'65, the
Circuit Court added two grades, and also required that the
Board submit its new plans to the Court, so that the Court
could check to see if the Board was gerrymandering the
districts so as to keep Negroes out of schools. This was
implied under the orders rendered by this Court, but it is
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
now made specific by the Fifth Circuit. The real change
is advancing the 1964 -- well, the real change in the Fifth
Circuit's opinion was the advancing of the 1964 situation
by two grades.
(7) The Louisiana Pupil Placement Act may be
applied only, under the Fifth Circuit's opinion, only when
the Board makes placements without regard to race. This
lends credence to the opinion rendered by this Court, even
though this may be repetitious, that the Pupil Placement
Law may not be used anywhere except in the circumstances
set out in the Fifth Circuit's order. It may not be used
to keep integration, but that it can be used for what it
is -- an experiment in progressive education.
Following this decision, which practically tracks
the decision that was rendered by this Court, theproblem
existed in the City of New Orleans, and which was a very
serious one, and that was that more than 5,540 pupils were
going to school here on a platoon system. It was unfair.
It was wrong. And men of good will reached the decision
in this community which resulted actually in the conversion
of three schools into schools that became predominantly --
that is, schools which had been predominantly all-white,
and whichbecame predominantly all-Negro, thereby eliminating
practically the entire, the major part of the platooning
in the City of New Orleans by October, 1962, and this was
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as a result of cooperation by all the parties concerned,
operating transitorily on orders that were issued by this
Court. Now, this platooning was reduced to 3,646, and
now, today, there is no more platooning in the City of New
Orleans, and there is an equal opportunity afforded to all
children to get an education, without having to go to
schools behind barn doors, in the back of barber shops, and
in places where an education cannot be adequately obtained.
The Court of Appeals in its original opinion, which
was not basically changed upon rehearing, but which, in
effect, told the District Court and the School Board to go
ahead with a transitory plan until experience would seem
to justify some alteration or change in the school structure,
and in the methods of going about the plan which the School
Board had offered and the Court had accepted. And the
School Board thereafter went into the single zone system
for the first, the second, and the third grades in the
Parish of Orleans.
It is, and has always been interesting to this
Court to realize, after all of this evidence that has been
introduced here over a period of time, that the School
Board, in the opinion of this Court, since the orders of
desegregation, temporary though they were, had been ordered
by this Court, has proceeded in good faith to carry out
the objectives and the caveat of the Court of Appeals, and
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1 the District Court sitting here today, and the drawing
2 of equitable patterns or zones in the City of New Orleans
3 became a very difficult situation in that the School Board
® 4 was faced with population patterns where there was obviously
5 a concentration of one race in one or more areas within
6 the city, and large areas were fields of undeveloped
7 lands, low lands. And then, in addition to that, there
was the constant moving, shifting and changing of patterns
9 of populations, and it made it most difficult to do
10 equity to the orders that have been entered during the
11 month of August of last year or in reality prior to that
12 time.
» 13 The present plaintiffs re-entered the Bush case
14 to complain about the school districts, I think, at that
15 time that only the first and second grades had been estab-
16 lished as single zone areas, and this Court handed down a
17 lengthy opinion, and this opinion was reported in 230 Fed
18 Supp, at page 505, and it was incorporated and made a part
19 of the opinion which the Court is contemporaneously handing
20 down at this particular time.
21 In that opinion the Court pointed out that it was
- 22 || hoped that at some point that the plaintiffs in the Bush
23 | case were satisfied with the procedure that was being fol-
24 lowed, and that this case would some day come to an end.
25 However, the Court cannot criticize the plaintiffs in seeking
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now to obtain the long-range plan which has never really
been formally promulgated; one. to seek integration of the
faculty and the administrative facilities, and to seek a
redrafting of the various zones that have been prepared by
the School Board.
And as to this last matter, the Court listened
with great attention to the criticism of some of these
zones by Dr. Bardwell, an expert who was Superintendent of
Education in West Chicago, as to what he alledged to be in-
equities in the manner in which these lines were drawn.
Dr. Bardwell admitted that he had been here something more
than 48 hours, making a study of the City of New Orleans,
which has had School Board problems for better than one
hundred years, and that this, that, and the other thing was
wrong with the way in which these districts were drawn.
And the Court gives practically no credence to the testimony
which the doctor introduced because, in the first place,
the Court does not feel that he had sufficient time within
which to make any comprehensive study; and, in the second
place, the Court must consider many factors which Dr.
Bardwell stated frankly that he did not consider, in reaching
a conclusion about the way in which these districts had been
developed and laid out. And, specifically, the problem
which the plaintiffs bitterly complain about, and that is
that there exists overcrowding in the school system of the |
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1 City of New Orleans.
2 And, as to the matter of overcrowding, it is to
3 be deplored, and there has got to be some method developed,
. # something worked out to more equally distribute the schodl
5 children load throughout the various schools in the city.
6 And this Court cannot see a 48-hour expert coming forward
7 to end all of the troubles with four or five diagrams --
8 problems that conscientious study has been given to for
y months, and energies, and a conscientious effort made to
10 reach a decision upon the problem.
n And I particularly call the Appellate Court's
12 attention to the fact that under the orders of this Court
13 not only had the first, second and third grades been integ-
14 grated under a single zone system, but that the Court last
35 August ordered the integration of kindergarten. Therefore,
16 today, since this plan has been in effect, and since the
17 first order of this Court that kindergarten plus three
18 grades have been fully integrated in this city, and it is
19 frankly admitted that in the kindergarten and in these
20 three grades, that the free right of transfer has been
21 honored on every occasion; that in every instance where a
w 29 Negro applied for a transfer to an all-white shcool of his
23 | or her choice, that transfer was granted. And if a Negro |
24 | had wished to extricate his or her child from an overcrowded |
25 | school in the first, second or third grades, or in the |
1 kindergarten, this could have been accomplished by an
2 application and supporting documents.
3 The Appellate Court should be aware of the fact
. 4 that in the integration or desegregation, that is, the
5 complete desegregation of kindergarten, first, second, and
6 third grades thus far, and under the present order the
7 fourth grade to be desegregated this fall, that more than
8 407% of the total school children of the City of New Orleans
4 now have the privilege of attending the school of their
10 choice, either by attending it in the district in which
11 they live or by applying for a transfer to the school of
12 their choice.
» 13 The Court feels that there is going to be a
14 continuous problem as long as two basic things exist; (1)
15 the lack of money for capital improvements, and (2) the
16 population concentrations; and the third one being the
17 ratio between the Negro and the white attendance in the
18 schools of the city. In kindergarten, for example, and
19 this has only been integrated since last August, last fall,
20 there are now 2,550 white students, which is 42% of the
21 total, and there are 3,434 Negro students in kindergarten,
w 29 which is 57% out of a total of 5,949.
23 But let's look at the first grade. In the first
24 grade there are 3,385 white students, which is 2 7% of the
25 total; and there are 7,923 Negro students in the first
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grade, which is 707 of the total, with the total being
11,308.
In the second grade there are 3,154 white,
which is 30% of the total; and there are 7,227 Negro stu-
dents, for a total of 607% of the 10,381 students.
The birth rate in the City of New Orleans of the
Negro children over the white is substantial.
While the white or the colored population is
escalating out into other areas, there still persists a
concentration, and there still persists the construction of
housing projects which are predominantly Negro, and unfor-
tunately, and this Court regrets it, the Negro housing
situation has not been good in this city or in the state,
and the city and the federal government are now aware of
the situation, and have been aware of it for a decade, and
are building housing projects in order that the Negro
children, and their parents, may have decent housing ac-
commodations. But this creates a concentration again which
creates overcrowding of the schools being built or of
schools already built in a particular area where the housing
project exists.
I would like the court reporter to incorporate
the figures of students by grade in the judgment that is
here rendered, which ends up with a total of white students,
39,314; 64,893 Negro students, for a total of 104,207
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students now attending schools in the City of New Orleans.
Ten years from now that figure will be very, very sub-
stantially greater. The ratio between Negro and whites
will be substantially higher, and bringing with it again
substantial problesm that relate to desegregation, in an
effort at all times to work out a program that will not be
discriminatory, and in keeping with the doctrine enunciated
by the Supreme Court of the United States, in Brown versus
Board twice, and in five recent cases handed down by the
United States Circuit Court of Appeals.
There is no need to incorporate in this opinion
at this time some of the facts and figures that have been
introduced by counsel for the plaintiffs in the exhibits
which have been filed in this record as exhibits A through
F. But those exhibits speak loudly for themselves. They
do not tend to show discrimination, in the Court's opinion.
They show overcrowding, but they do not show that that
overcrowding cannot be eliminated by voluntary transfers.
They do not criticize the amount of capital improvements,
money that has been expended by the School Board for new
improvements.
The criticism seems to be based on the fact that
there is overcrowding, and that the School Board ought to
do something about it. But counsel for the plaintiff doesn't
tell the School Board what they can do; and this Court
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feels that there is an obligation on the part of all parties
concerned to educate the Negro parents on the necessity of
attempting to go to schools where their child might have
a chance to get a better education and accommodations,
whether it be all-white or partially integrated.
Now, this Court will quote additional statistics
in its formal opinion that will be handed down in this case,
but to proceed now with the balance of this decree, the
Court feels specifically that it is under injunction, so
to speak, from the United States Circuit Court of Appeals,
to step up the desegregation of the New Orleans school
sytem. The Court of Appeals has stated that in 1964 the
fourth and fifth grades should have been desegregated and
separate, single school districts drawn, and that transfers,
without racial discrimination, should beeffected in these
areas.
The Court is well aware of the more recent
decisions of the Fifth Circuit, particularly the case of
Jerry L. Lockett, et al, versus Board of Education, Muskogee
County School District of Georgia, decided February 24th,
1965, by Judges Tuttle, Moore, and with Judge Bell, the
organ of the Court, where it was argued and asserted, where
the Board had begun the plan for school desegregation, that
a different rule might be applicable as to the speed at
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Now, in that opinion at page 7 Judge Bell states:
"We add to the caveat from Stell," and Stell being a
decision of the Supreme Court of the United States, ''the
time here allowed is for a system having a plan 'in some
degree under way --' The rule has become: The later the
start, the shorter the time allowed for transition."
Continuing, and also not to be overlooked, con-
tinuing Judge Bell, and I quote: ''also not to be overlooked
is the rule of Stell that a necessary part of any plan
is a provision that the dual or bi-racial school attendance
system, i.e., separate attendance areas, districts or
zones for the races, shall be abolished contemporaneously
with the application of the plan to the respective grades
when and as reached by it."
Under the circumstances, and under the injunction
which this Court is under, the long-range plan which this
Court shall order the School Board to enter into is, single,
homogenous districts surrounding grades four and five in
1965, this fall, instead of grade four alone; grades six
and seven in 1966; grades eight and nine in 1967; grades
ten and eleven in 1968; and grade twelve, 1969. In this
way speed at which the desegregation will take place in
the City of New Orleans is governed, and complete desegre-
gation will be accomplished by 1969.
The Court is very grateful that there are now
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1 nearly 1,000 Negro students attending formerly all-white
2 schools under the desegregation orders that have already
3 been issued. This does not include the number of students
® 4 that would transfer into the integrated school system if
3 the old temporary order remain in effect in 1964, and that
6 this has been done because of the quit dooperdtion of
7 the School Board, the business community, and the Negro
8 leadership in Metropolitan New Orleans. The Court commends
9 that leadership in the way in which this matter has been
10 accomplished. It is a way that this Court believes the
11 great emancipator, Abraham Lincoln, would have accomplished
12 such a situation -- by walking slowly ahead, but never
13 walking backward.
14 It is to be hoped by this Court that the opinion
15 of the applicants here will not be polarized to the point
16 that they will lose sight of the spirit of good will that
17 dominates the relationship of the races in the City of
18 New Orleans, but that the relationship be permited to
19 continue, and continue under a program that will satisfy
20 the Constitutional rights of all conerned, so that New
21 Orleans will be a leader in the field of a first-calss
w 29 | democracy, where a second-class citizen doesn't exist.
23 | This opinion will be formalized and time for appeal)
24 | if an appeal is to be taken, will not begin to toll until
25 | the formal judgment is drafted and handed down.
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The Court will require some two weeks in order
to conclude the opinion, the basis of which has here been
established.
Is there any question?
Court will be at recess.
(Whereupon, court recessed.)