Trial Transcript 4

284 pages

Document text

The following text has been generated automatically during the document scanning process. It may contain errors, omissions, or incorrect formatting. Please refer to the PDF document if this text is not usable.

Download

By downloading, publishing, or reusing the Materials outside of the Website, you hereby confirm and attest that you have read and agree to the LDF Archival Collection Terms of Use linked below. We draw your attention to the following:

For those Materials owned by LDF, your use of the Material outside the Site is solely for one or more of the following (the “Permitted Purposes”):

Non-commercial research and private study;
Teaching, scholarship and instruction (including distance learning);
Non-commercial print and non-commercial online use;
Criticism, comment or news reporting; or
For people with visual disabilities (See Section 121 of the Copyright Act).
For those Materials not owned by LDF you understand that:
- It is your responsibility to determine whether the way you plan to use the materials falls within the copyright exception of Fair Use.
- For any use outside of Fair Use, it is your responsibility to seek and obtain all required permissions from any existing rights holders.

LDF hereby grants you the right to use LDF owned Materials for the Permitted Purposes without seeking further permission from LDF.

If you publish or redistribute any Materials (including excerpts and quotes), you must include a credit line and/or proper citation to the source of the Material. However, you may not use the name of LDF in any manner which creates any false association between you and LDF or that incorrectly implies any sponsorship or endorsement of you by LDF.

NOTICE: Uses that do not comply with these Terms or that do not fall under Fair Use (or another exception) may make you liable for copyright infringement.

Read the full LDF Archival Collection Terms of Use Here.

I agree to the terms and conditions for use of this content.

If you would like to use this content in other ways, contact us at .

Includes Tailoring Receipt on page 284.

Impact area
- Education
Topic
- Educational Equity
LDF Attorneys
Cooperating Attorneys
Organization
- LDF
Matter
- Bush v. Orleans Parish
Case
- Bush v. Orleans Parish
U.S. state
- Louisiana
Collection
- Case Files
Taxonomy
Identifier
- 3484a736-d2fd-f011-8406-7c1e526962fd

Cite this item

Case Files, Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board. Trial Transcript 4, 1964. 3484a736-d2fd-f011-8406-7c1e526962fd. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/d740a1e0-cc9a-4a5f-8fb5-88861170703c/trial-transcript-4. Accessed February 20, 2026.

Copied!

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA

NEW ORLEANS DIVISION

EARL BENJAMIN BUSH, etal

versus

ORLEANS PARISH SCHOOL
BOARD, etal

APPEARANCES :

JAMES NABRIT, III
and

ERNEST MORIAL

SAM I, ROSENBERG

CIVIL ACTION

NO, 3630

1821 Orleans Avenue,
New Orleans, Louisiana
Attorney for Plaintiff

National Bank of Commerce
Bldg., New Orleans, Louisiana
Attorney for Defendant.

(The above entitled and numbered matter

came up for hearing on this, the 10th day of

August, 1964, in the Courtroom, 400 Royal Street,

New Orleans, Louisiana; THE HONORABLE FRANK B.

ELLIS, DISTRICT JUDGE, presiding.)

{p
od

WITNESSES:

James E. Dean, Jr.

Dr. Stanley Fitzpatrick

EXHIBITS:

1964 OPSB-25

Plaintiff-A,B,C,D

Plaintiff-E,F

8.9, 10.11, 12,
16, 17, 18a
22, 23, 24a,b

164

Page

261

110

21]

PROCEEDINGS
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen, are we ready

to proceed in this matter?

Did you want to address the Court?

MR. NABRIT: Your Homor, I think that we probably

need some more of the court's papers here. I don't believe

that we have all of the court's papers here, because the thing

that I was particularly interested in was an answer to some

interrogatories.

THE COURT: In this matter, after the Court handed

judgment down in May of 1963, as you well know, the Court

obtained jurisdiction over this matter. And if there ever

crept into the proceedings any violation of the Constitutional

rights of the plaintiffs, the Court would at all times enter-

tain any motions which you or other counsel would desire to

submit. And the Court did not pass upon, except by innuendo,

the integration of the kindergarten grades. So it would

seem that some further order by this Court is necessary in

order to accelerate the integration in that particular field.

Now, I agree with you, and I think both counsel,

or all counsel in this matter, that there is a slight

in the meaning of the order, and I would, therefore, rather

be inclined to let you gentlemen take up this matter of the

kindergarten at this sitting, without fail.

Now, from the point of the mechanics of this, is

opaqueness

t
n

it agreeable that the defendant School Board go forward with

a showing, if they can show it, a prima facie showing, in

substantiation of the documents, interrogatories, and other

matters and things? And, in other words, they will go forward

with the requisite proof, and then if the Court feels that

the burden shifts, and that you decide to go forward with

your proof, and that the Court wants specifics as far as

possible, and not statistics, which can indicate almost any-

thing, if you construe them the way you wish to construe them.

And, by way of illustration, your only basis here

for attack would be that the single district system has,

according to the complainants, this redistricting has created

a juxtaposition which, per se, on the basis of the count of

those on the complaint, and the count of those in the Negro

schools, that this is racial discrimination.

And it is the view of the Court that if this is

wrong, and if there is racial discrimination, as you allege,

then it is your duty to come forth and prove it.

Now, as to what degree this Court will accept the

| statistical figures depends upon the position of the statistic

in relation to the documents to be considered and other fac-

tors, and the Court will listen to it, and see what comes out

of this.

I do not want to rehash the total trial that we

had here several months ago.

I might ask Mr, Nabrit, if under those circum=-

stances, and I think that counsel reached an agreement

yesterday evening about the introduction of certain documents

without the necessity of identification, and would it not

be in order to place those documents in the record as of now

in order that they will be before the Court?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

May it please the Court, apparently the clerk does

not have readily available all of the documents here, and

what we are looking for are the interrogatories which were

filed by the plaintiff and the answers to the interrogatories

which were made, as well as the interrogatories propounded

by the School Board and the answers thereto filed by the

plaintiffs.

Do you have the copy that was filed in the clerk's

office?

THE CLERK: I believe it is all right there in the

record.

THE COURT: Approach the bench.

(Conference of Court and counsel at the bench.)

THE COURT: All right.

We have these originals of the answers to the

interrogatories right here. We have those on behalf of the

School Board, and a copy of the School Board's interrogatories

addressed to you, and the answers to the interrogatories by

(questions. If you will look at the questions, you will see

the Orleans Parish School Board, and the answers which, I

understand, were given on the interrogatories propounded by

the School Board, were insufficient in that there was not

a pinpoint of the areas within or in which ==

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I take

the position that in making the answers which they did to

my interrogatories 3 through 13, they have admitted that

there is no discrimination in any of the respects interrogated

or covered by those interrogatories.

MR, NABRIT: May it please the Court, the answers

stated that we did not know the facts, and we admit that.

We didn't know the facts about the answers to the specific

that some of them have -- the answers are only in the possession

of the School Board, and probably most of them, only.

THE COURT: Mr. Nabrit, the Orleans Parish School

Board is a public body, and the right to access of these

records and these statistics, is a matter which we have dis~-

cussed here time and again.

Now, Mr. Tureaud is not here today, the general

counsel for the NAACP, and I believe you say that you did

not, or you could not formulate these answers because the

information is hidden from you?

MR. NABRIT: No, your Honor, I am saying that all

the information that was sought in Mr. Rosenberg's questions,

the information is in the possession of the School Board,

and we did not have it, and that is all our position.

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, the

interrogatories, and let me give the Court an example: In-

terrogatory Number 3, for example, says, "Have any of the

plaintiffs, or any of the class they represent made any

written or oral representations to the Orleans Parish School

Board, its administrative staff or its attorney, that its

school attendance district or any one of them are gerry-

mandered on a racial basis?" And the answer to that is:

"Plaintiffs are unable to furnish information as to Inter-

rogatory Number 3."

MR. NABRIT: May I comment on that?

THE COURT: Let him finish.

MR. ROSENBERG: Now, may it please the Court, the

plaintiffs have filed a motion in which they have made certain

objections to our plan. In order to prepare for the trial

of this motion, under the discovery procedure approved by

the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure I filed these inter-

rogatories. Now, when I asked did the plaintiff or any of

the class they represent have made any representations that

the districts were gerrymandered, and they answered by saying

that they are unable to furnish that information, I assume

that they are saying that they have made no such representa-

tion, and I prepared my case based on that assumption.

1 THE COURT: Do you have any comment now?

2 MR. NABRIT: Yes, your Honor.

3 My statement is very simple that we knew of no

| s 4 such representation, but there is 42,000 or over 40,000

5 Negroes in the school system, and we have no way of knowing

who has made oral or written, that is, who among that group

made oral or written representations to the School Board.

The School Board knows what it has received.

y THE COURT: Of course, you are not in the position

10 | here of being a party in interest, and the actual party at

n interest is the School Board. And what it does, the School

12 || Board operates as a representative of both sides of this

| 13 case. And you say that this knowledge is hidden knowledge,

14 and it is within their possession, and that the reason that

15 you cannot get answers to the interrogatories is because

16 they would not furnish you the information that they have

17 |i got? Is that your position? Can you pinpoint that for me,

18 just what specific information has been withheld?

19 MR. NABRIT: My statement, your Honor, was, and

20 we are talking about one interrogatory, and we are not

21 talking about all of them in general, and my statement was,

| % 22 and this one is a perfect example, there are 42,000 Negroes

23 in the =-- or more ~~ in the school system, and he asked us:

24 "Have any of them complained about gerrymandering?" Our

25 answer to them is that we didn't know --

THE COURT: Well, what is your complaint? All

that I want to know is just what are the issues here? You

reopened it, and Mr. Rosenberg went a step or two further,

and after your suggestions were submitted and after you had

made your attack upon the fairness of the School Board's

administrative operations =--

MR, NABRIT: Your Honor, I am not quite sure I

understand now what we are proceeding on here. If you want

me to state all of the positions I have taken in the case, I

would have to state -- well, if you want me to answer the

questions about the interrogatories, I will be happy to answer

those. I am just unable to say, your Honor, because I don't

quite know what subject we are discussing. I will be happy

to state what our complaint is, and answer the question.

The plaintiff's position is that the School Board has not

and cannot justify delaying desegregation on the grade-a-year

basis, and under the School Board's proposed plan all of the

schools in the system, and all of the grades, twelve, cannot

be reached until 1973. I think that is unfair, and they

cannot sustain that burden under the appropriate decisions

of the Circuit Court and the other decisions of the Supreme

Court.

We believe that the school attendance areas which

they have adopted have not at all corrected the pattern of

overcrowded Negro schools, and under-utilized white schools,

and we are prepared to show ==

THE COURT: Do you have evidence to show this?

MR, NABRIT: Yes, your Honor, and the answers to

the ==

THE COURT: Now, you showed me certain evidence

that you had last night at the conference in chambers, and

is that the same evidence that you propose to submit here?

MR, NABRIT: Well, and I propose to ask a few

questions from the witnesses, but that is the basic answer,

yes. It is evidence which shows, and which was furnished

by the School Board, as to the capacity of the schools, and

it shows the enrollment of the schools. And if you look

at the location of the schools on the School Board's map,

you will see that Negro schools are overcrowded in various

parts of the city, adjacent to, and sometimes surrounded

by, under-utilized white schools.

Further, plaintiffs take the position that the

School Board should be directed, unequivocally, to desegregate

the kindergarten. It is our position in this case that the

Court decided that matter in its opinion of May, 1963, and

that that is settled.

The School Board contends it does not have to de-

segregate kindergarten, and I think that should be, that

matter must be and should be cleared up.

We submit that the plan contains no provision

for the assignment of teachers or other professional persons

on a non~racial basis, and that the School Board should be

enjoined forthwith to make a beginning in that regard.

We further submit that the plan contains no pro-

visions for directing school administrative personnel not

to continue the past practices of planning new schools and

additions to schools on the racial basis. The evidence,

uncontradicted in the record of the hearing in 1962, was

that that was the pattern until that date. And I submit

that there is no evidence that it ever has been changed.

Those are basically the matters raised in our motions.

THE COURT: TI think everyone admits that the

purport of these orders generally has been to maintain the

flexibility of the situation, with the Court keeping the case

under advisement in order to make available this forum for

the complainants or the School Board to complain of the

method of procedure being followed.

And you have come in now to complain specifically

about the method that has been followed. As soon as you get

the information which you have sought in the interrogatories,

the Court feels, and felt a year ago, that you have not ex-

hausted your administrative opportunity to examine these

things, and discussed a little bit the employment of an expert

who would analyze this proposed plan from a racial point

of view, residence point of view, and in that way some light

could be shed on the problem. But as it is now, we simply

have a rather dull, opaque situation. And you come in and

gay that it is not in conformity or in keeping with the

l4th Amendment.

This Court feels, as I told you yesterday, that

at some time this litigation has got to come to an end. Any

time there is a flagrant violation of the basic rights of

these plaintiffs, then it is the obligation of this Court

to come back here again. But, frankly, I don't know just

what you are driving at, and I assume that this is agreeable

to the parties, that we will open up this matter, and I will

say that an attack has been made on the School Board's

interim program, and this is yet for determination by this

Court, the broad range of the program, or the permanent

program that was discussed, and which was handed to this

Court for decision. However, when the interim judgment was

handed down, and I decided to delay the kindergarten a year,

and to go forward with the stepladder proceeding, plus the

lateral transfers, the Court feels that these orders about

these things ~~ I don't mean about the integration of two

additional grades, and I mean as to just what constitutes

a violation under this single zone system that has been estab~-

lished, and this Court feels and many other attorneys for

the NAACP, and members of Congress, and others have felt

that we were going forward in this case, and that we were

moving to make those so-called second class citizens first-

class citizens.

And the Court wants to see developed here, as

nearly as possible, districts with their lines drawn in such

a way that there will be reasonable, a reasonable adherence

to the Court's orders.

I assume that there will be no objection, since

an attack has been made, to have Mr. Rosenberg pick it up

for the School Board with the burden upon him only to show

a prima facie case?

MR, NABRIT: You are asking me a question whether

or not I have an objection?

THE COURT: Do you object? You don't object to

that, do you?

MR, NABRIT: Well, I don't agree with that position

that his burden is only to show a prima facie case. No, I

don't agree with that.

As far as your procedure is concerned, that Mr.

Rosenberg will put on his witnesses first, I agree to that.

But I am not sure that the burden is just to make out a

prima facie case. The burden on the School Beard is to

justify the delays,and if they do it by substantial evidence,

I am not very clear, but the shifting of the burden is not ==

THE COURT: Well, you see, again and again we are

repeating what we said here before. Why haven't you gotten

some evidence of your own? Why don't you get an expert to

examine these books and records? Is it entirely the fact

that you do not have the money to do it?

MR, NABRIT: Your Honor, it is the plaintiff's

position that the case we have to put on, and the case we

do put on sufficiently establishes, we hope to the satis-

faction of the Court, the contentions we have made, And

our position is that I am ready to proceed, to go on to a

hearing, and we can prove our case.

THE COURT: You are ready to proceed? In other

words, you wish to go forward with your proof at this time?

MR, NABRIT: No, that was not my statement; I

said that we are ready to proceed with the trial. And the

procedure that was outlined at the pre-trial conference was

very good.

THE COURT: Then, as Mr. Rosenberg places his

witnesses, or the witnesses for the School Board on the stand,

you would interrogate them on each and every matter that

related to this controversy from the time it began back in

1960, when the first orders were issued, right up through

the present time, reviewing and going back, reviewing and

going back? What I want to do is te review and go forward,

but to open this door to unlimited cross examination is going

to be the first question that the Court will have to handle.

Do you think that you are entitled to that right

because you haven't been able to get the information that

you have sought, and, therefore, you are without knowledge

to intelligently prepare your defense?

Frankly, we are back here again and on the same

documents that you had the last time, and except that you

have made up your own format to show that there would be

in an area of four school zones, three of those four school

zones, that is, that three of those schools would be over-~

weighted? And well, all the year round we will say that the

first of the schools in the area, say that they were totally

white, and that it's running way down below its maximum

capacity, whereas in the other schools, in the other three

schools, which are so-called Negro schools, that there is a

general overcrowding of those particular institutions, and

then that for the reason that since there is overcrowding

in the Negro schools and no overcrowding in the white schools,

then you would say that the plan is not being properly ad-

ministered? Is that right?

MR, NABRIT: I am afraid I wasn't able to follow

your statement. I'll try to state it, and the way that I

hope to prove =-

THE COURT: Yes, I wish you would tell me what

it is that you propose to prove.

MR. NABRIT: We propose to establish that the

School Board program of desegregation as has proceeded to

date up through the first and second, including only the

first and second grades, the desegregation of these grades,

plus the lateral transfers which were allowed to a few

students, a few particular individuals in the third and fourth

grades last year, and the only other desegregation was at

the special highschool for exceptional children; we propose

to show that aside from those categories that I have mentioned

all the other grades, all the other people in the grades

three through tw elve and kindergarten, segregated beyond last

year, that the school board proposes to proceed, and this is

an admitted violation of their Constitutional rights, on the

basis of a grade-a-year. And the School Board is asking

for delay; the School Board put a plan before the Court,

and they are asking for delay of segregation.

We submit that it is their burden to show that

the delay is justified. I don't think that the proof last

year can by any stretch of the imagination demonstratesthat

that such delay was required--until 1973-- to desegregate

all of the grades.

As far as the delay issue is concerned, first,

the onus will rest on the School Board.

As far as the overcrowding of the Negro schools,

the figures speak for themselves, and they are all ready in

the answers to the interrogatories--all that is required is

to look at them, and you will see that the overcrowded

Negro schools are surrounded by unutilized white schools.

It doesn't take any special qualification to see --

THE COURT: Apparently you do not recognize that

the Court is trying to act here in good faith in this thing,

and the Court went back and gave vitality to Judge Wright's

old order of 1962, and this Court has tried, in working out

this whole overall plan, to give you what has never been

given before -~- and that was a homogenous reservoir contain~-

ing one type of district -- no Negro district, and no white

district, but all molded into one, and from that reservoir

we would then move into the area of quiet integration. I

had hoped that this could be done without counsel stirring

the situation up down here, and trying to go back, and saying

that we have been moving too slowly.

And, frankly, from the standpoint of capital

improvements, and from the standpoint of attention to the

problems of the Negroes, the success of it, I think you can

lay arbitrarily at the door of the directors of the Orleans

Parish School Board. I think that there is probably room

for modification. But it has to be some basis that the

Court can intelligently move forward.

Now, you are telling me that you are going to

present it in a different way. Now, just exactly what is it

that you are here seeking to do now? You say that you are

going to present the proposition that the Negro schools are

overcrowded, generally speaking, and that the white schools

are not, and that there is not an assignment to these schools

on the basis of equality?

Now, you listened to Mr. Rosenberg yesterday in

chambers, and I listened to him a little bit yesterday, and

his problem is that this thing constantly changes. At one

point, when this Court came in, there were 2500 Negro children

on the platoon system. Within a year that was eliminated

almost entirely.

Subsequent to that time, these large housing units

were built, with concentrations of either Negroes or whites

in one locality, and I understand that this is one of the

reasons why we had to practically reform it, and begin to

breaking it down.

Now, the next problem is just as simple as anything

in the world, and that is the increase in Negro school popu-~

lation is tremendous, Where the white schools have gained

nothing by way of students, student strength, the Negroes

gained several thousand. The birth rate among Negroes is

much higher than it is among the whites, and I think that

a large part of the fault which is alleged to exist here is

due to factors that are somewhat beyond the control of the

Board, or of the School Board having to do its duty.

So I wish you to proceed now.

Is there anvthing further? y

MR. ROSENBERG: No, sir.

THE COURT: Proceed with the preliminary proof.

And you are required to show a legal justification for this

plan.

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Is it your intention to take up the

legal justification of the entire, long-range plan? Or are

we limiting ourselves here in any way?

MR. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, the

position of the School Board in this case is very similar

to the position of the Atlanta School Board in Latimer versus

Calhoun. In Latimer versus Calhoun, may it please the Court,

and the opinion in 1963, the Court commented in footnote 3,

and I quote: "The dearth of evidence probably results from

the parties each taking the position that the burden of

proof was on the other. The burden is plainly on the Board

to justify the plan, and the delays under it, Having done so,

and having obtained the approval of the Court, we think that

the burden shifted to appellant (that is the Negro plaintiffs

in the Atlanta case) to, at least, make a prima facie showing

that changes were in order."

May it please the Court, in this case we had a

hearing last year which covered, the transcript of which,

covered some 400 pages. At the conclusion of that hearing

your Honor made certain findings and handed down an opinion,

which included the proposition that the record in the case

shows beyond a peradventure of a doubt that the shifting

from a dual zone to a single zone system is an arduous ad-

ministrative task.

The Court further found that what facts there

were that were presented to the Court were that the Board

intended to treat all students even-handedly.

The Court also held that the Board had carried

the burden of justifying a delay in going into total deseg-

regation, and, finally, the Court said that so long as the

Board indicates good faith and honesty in the administration

of the plan, that the Court would leave the public school

system to those who would know it best, namely, the School

Board.

Now, may it please the Court, I would like at this

time to bring the record up to date in order to show precisely

what the Board has done since your Honor's opinion of May 17,

1963.

At the outset I would like to have introduced and

filed in evidence the interrogatories propounded by the

Bush plaintiff to the Orleans Parish School Board, and the

answers to those interrogatories filed by the Orleans Parish

School Board.

And in comnection therewith, I wish to offer,

introduce and file into evidence the following exhibits,

which are annexed to and made a part of the answers to the

interrogatories:

Number 1: I offer, introduce and file in

evidence a copy of "Facts and Finances' of the Orleans Parish

School Board for the year 1963-1964, and I mark same for

identification 1964 OPSB~-1.

May it please the Court, in the pre-trial

conference yesterday it was agreed or suggested that the ex-

hibits be marked "1964," and as filed this exhibit was marked

OPSB-1, but I would now like to identify it as 1964 OPSB-1l
2

so as to distinguish the exhibits in this year's hearing from

those filed last year.

THE COURT: Why don't you just call them "School

without that detail, or is this rather lengthy =-=-
1% 4
£4 Board,

MR. ROSENBERG: Well, po
d

2
0

marked them OPSB,

which stands for "Orleans Parish School Board,"

four letters.

THE COURT: All right. Just let it go.

MR, ROSENBERG: Next, may it please the Court,

I wish to offer, introduce and file in evidence an exhibit

showing a list of elementary school buildings stating the

number of classrooms and the estimated capacities, which I

have marked for identification 1964 OPSB-2.

Next, an exhibit showing a list of the secondary

school buildings, the number of classrooms and the estimated

Ly) FJ
bee

capacity, and I have marked same for identification 1964

Next, I offer, introduce and file in evidence an

exhibit which is a set of condensed data sheets. and mark b J

same for identification 1964 OPSB-3.

May it please the Court, at this time the inter-

served upon the School Board we had not, or we did not have

available a blue line map, or a map showing the proposed

single zones for the year 1964-'65. Since answering the

interrogatories, we have had such a map prepared and printed,

and we have furnished a copy to opposing counsel, and 1

would like to offer it and introduce it and file in evidence

a copy of such map, which I have marked for identification

1964 OPSB-4.

Incidentally, Mr. Nabrit, here is a list, to save

time, and not having to write them down, here ig a list of

the exhibits.

May it please the Court, I would like to change

the designation on the map from 4 to 4-A.

And my exhibit OPSB 4-A, data sheet showing or

covering the secondary schools, in other words.

Therefore, at this time I would like to offer,

introduce and file in evidence a condensed, a set of condensed

data sheets covering the secondary schools, and mark same for

identification 1964 OPSB-4,

Would your Honor like a list of these exhibits?

It may be a little easier to follow.

I am going to have to change the marking of number

4, so that the record will be clear, may it please the Court,

1964 OPSB-4 is the condensed data sheet covering secondary

schools, and OPSB 4~A is the single zone map for 1964~'65.

Next, may it please the Court, is an exhibit which

is Table II of the state equalization fund, second phase,

and I offer, introduce and file in evidence said exhibit

and mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-5.

Next, may it please the Court, 1 offer, introduce

and file in evidence a set of zone maps for 1963-'64, and

mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-6.

Next, may it please the Court =--

MR, NABRIT: Did that last exhibit include the

verbal description?

MR, ROSENBERG: Yes.

The exhibit OPSB~-6 includes not only the zone map

for 1963-'64, but also includes a listing of the changes made

in the '60-'64 zones, which were proposed for '64-'65.

And the exhibit OPSB~4 1g the zone map for the

single zone, which has incorporated into it those verbal

changes made to the '63-'64 maps.

Next, may it please the Court, I offer, introduce

and file in evidence a table showing teacher employment by

the Orleans Parish School Board in two parts, and mark same

for identification 1964 OPSB-7.

And at this time, may it please the Court, I would

like to amend instanter one of the columns in that exhibit

which contains a typographical error which I have called to

the attention of counsel for the plaintiff.

Does your Honor have a copy of that exhibit that

you would want to change?

THE COURT: I don't think so.

But do you want to initial there where the change

takes place, I assume?

MR, ROSENBERG: In Part I, may it please the

144 Court, in the column which is headed "New," the column which

is headed "New," the first figure "49" is correct, but the

second figure should be "71," and the third, fourth, and

fifth figures are correct, and the last figure should be

"18." Under the Negro teachers, in the column "New ~~

THE COURT: Let's go back.

You've got OPSB 77%

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And the first change is line 2, is

that correct, "71" in lieu of "26"?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And 246 in lieu of 1127

MR, ROSENBERG: Yes, 246 instead of 112.

THE COURT: And the last is 18 in the first column?

MR, ROSENBERG: Instead of 28.

And then, finally, the 103 in the second column

should be 113.

Do you find that, your Honor? Under "Negro

Teachers, New, for 1962-'63 --"

May I approach the bench?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR, ROSENBERG: That exhibit there shows all of

the changes.

THE COURT: All right.

That completes the situation?

MR, ROSENBERG: Yes, sir. These were typographical

errors there in the numbers involved.

Next, may it please the Court, I wish to offer,

introduce and file in evidence the interrogatories propounded

by the Orleans Parish School Board to the Bush plaintiffs

and the answers to those interrogatories filed by the attor-

neys by the plaintiffs.

Next, may it please the Court, I wish to offer,

introduce and file into evidence a certified copy, or, rather,

a copy of a recommendation made by the Superintendent of

Schools, Mr. 0. Pcrry Walker, to the Orleans Parish School

Board under date of May 20, 1963, and I mark same for iden-

tification 1964 OPSB-8. And, by way of explanation I would

say to the Court that this exhibit is a recommendation sade

by the Superintendent of Schools to the Orleans Parish School

Board as to how to handle the registration of children in the

first and second grades under a single zone system in 1963.

Next, may it please the Court, I wish to offer,

introduce and file in evidence, an extract from the minutes

of the Orleans Parish School Board at its meeting held May

27, 1963, which exhibit shows an approval by the Orleans

Parish School Board of the plan submitted to it, and con-

tained in the recommendations of the Superintendent, and I

mark said exhibit for identification 1964 OPSB~9 for iden-

tification.

Next, may it please the Court, I wish to offer,

introduce and file in evidence the certified extract of the

minutes of the meeting of the Orleans Parish School Board

held July 15, 1963, and I mark same for identification 1964

OPSB~10.

Now, by way of explanation, may it please the

Court, this is the resolution by the Orleans Parish School

Board directing the Superintendent to take whatever adminis-

trative action is necessary in order to comply with the orders

of this Court entered on May 17 in this case.

Next, may it please the Court, I wish to offer,

f
=

introduce and file in evidence a certified copy of a resolutiox

1 of the Orleans Parish School Board adopted at its meeting

2 held on May 25, 1964, which sets forth the directives by the

3 Board to the Superintendent as to the continuation of its

® 4 plan for desegregation for the year 1964-'65, and directing

5 the Superintendent to establish dates and procedures for

6 the orderly registration and for assignment of all children

7 desiring to enroll in the public schools of this parish, and

8 it fixes the date for, the maximum date for the registration

9 of kindergarten and first grades for the year '64-'65. And

10 I mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-1ll.

1 Next, may it please the Court, I offer, introduce

12 and file in evidence a recommendation of the Superintendent

| % 13 to the Orleans Parish School Board dated May 26, 1964, con-

| 14 taining a recommendation as to the detailed procedures for

15 registration and assignment of all children desiring to

16 enroll in the public schools of Orleans Parish in September,

17 for the session beginning September, 1964, and I mark same

18 for identification 1964 OPSB-12.

19 Next, may it please the Court, I offer, introduce

20 and file in evidence an extract from the minutes of the

21 meeting of the Orleans Parish School Board at a meeting held

| % 22 June 18, 1964, which approves and adopts the recommendations

23 of the Superintendent just referred to, and I mark that for

24 identification 1964 OPSB-13.

25 | Next, may it please the Court, I offer, introduce

25 {
| Nee

and file in evidence a tabulation showing the results of the

registration of kindergarten pupils and first grade pupils

for the session beginning September, 1964, and I mark same

for identification 1964 OPSB-14. And I have added, I have

shown under that, Exhibit A as the registration of kinder-

garten pupils in formerly all white schools, and "B" is

kindergarten pupils in formerly all Negro schools, and "C"

is first grade pupils in formerly all white schools, and '"D"

is first grade pupils in formerly all Negro schools.

Next, may it please the Court, is another exhibit

which purports to show, but in a slightly more readable form,

information relative to the kindergarten registration, and

it is an exhibit which analyzes the applications received for

registration for kindergarten in the registration held in

June, 1964, and I mark same for identification 1964 OPSB~15.

MR. NABRIT: A point of clarification on that

document; am I correct in understanding that that exhibit

marked 1964 OPSB-15 refers to Negro students who have regis-

tered or applied to register in the kindergartens of formerly

all white schools?

MR. ROSENBERG: That is correct.

THE COURT: In formerly all white schools?

MR, ROSENBERG: That is correct.

And, next, may it please the Court, is an exhibit

which shows a breakdown of the registration information

relative to the first grade registration held in 1964, and

shows a comparison of those figures with the same figures

for 1963, and I mark this exhibit for identification 1964

OPSB~16.

I think that your Honor already has a copy of

those, that I gave you in chambers.

I now offer, introduce, and file in evidence a

certified copy of a notarial act before Samuel I. Rosenberg,

Notary Public, dated February 13, 1964, being a building

contract entered into between the Orleans Parish School

Board and Granite Construction Company for the construction

of an elementary school in the Guste Homes area for a price

of $901,024.00, and I mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-1

Next, may it please the Court, I offer, introduce

and file in evidence three photographs taken on July 31,

1964, of the same elementary school which is now under con-

struction next to the Guste Homes, elementary school, and I

mark this exhibit for identification 1964 OPSB-18 (A), ~18 (B)

and -18 (C).

As the next item, I offer, introduce and file into

evidence a tabulation of the registration of children in

the first and second grades held on May 29, 30, 31, 1963,

for the 1963-1964 session, and I mark same for identification

1964 OPSB-19.

Next, I offer, introduce and file into evidence

a
|

a recommendation made to the Orleans Parish School Board by

Dr. Stanley Fitzpatrick, Assistant Superintendent, Research,

Planning and Construction, approved by Mr. 0. Perry Walker,

Superintendent, together with certification of the fact that

this report was received and approved by the Orleans Parish

School Board at a meeting held May 11, 1964, which said report

contains a proposed building program for the year 1964

through 1969.

Next, I offer, introduce and file into evidence a

graph showing the enrollment, showing the number of Negro

children enrolled in formerly all white schools in the first,

second, third, and fourth grades, and the tenth grade at

the Benjamin Franklin School for the year 1960, 1961, '62,

and '63, which shows graphically the enrollment figures.

Next, I wish to offer, introduce and file into

evidence a tabulation showing the kindergarten and first

grade, first trimester enrollment, for the years 1954 through

1963, and I mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-22.

THE COURT: All of these documentations were placed

in the hands of counsel, were they not? Mostly last night,

were they?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, exhibits through 7 were

annexed to my interrogatories, and the others I made a copy

available to counsel last night, with the exception of the

graph and the last exhibit, all of which I assume there is

no question as to the correctness of.

MR. NABRIT: No.

MR, ROSENBERG: Next, may it please the Court,

an exhibit setting forth the children enrolled in the public

schools from Negro public housing projects by grade, which

I shall mark for identification 1964 OPSB-23.

And, lastly, I wish to offer, introduce and file

in evidence four charts which also show graphically the

progress of desegregation in the public school system, and

I mark these for identification, the one covering the year

1960 --

MR, MORIAL: We are objecting to the introduction

of these charts, and we haven't had an opportunity to cross

examine, nor will we have an opportunity to cross examine

the person who prepared them.

MR, ROSENBERG: I prepared them, and I am prepared

to be cross examined on then.

What do you question about them? The number?

MR. NABRIT: The numbers are already in evidence

on the graph, but the area of, the proportion of the colors

do not conform ~~ what is your formula?

MR. ROSENBERG: The formula? Well, I will tell

you in a minute, 1/20th of an inch equals one pupil, and

this represents ==

MR, NABRIT: 1/20th of an inch square?

MR, ROSENBERG: No, sir, linearly. There is

seven inches from the bottom of the -~ to the first line,

and it is three inches from the top to the first line, and

each grade is two inches in width.

There is a total of 25 inches from this first

line to the end of the paper, which represents an enrollment

of 500; the midway point is 12 1/2 inches. And plotted from

that 12 1/2 inches is four students, is supposed to represent

4/20th of an inch, and I personally plotted this. And I

am, of course, prepared to take the stand and testify, if

you wish, as to the authenticity of the accuracy =~

THE COURT: I believe I understand the purport of

Mr. Morial's objection, and why don't we let the objection

go to the effect and you can renew it =--

MR. MORIAL: We would have no objection if some-

body would inform us on the legend -~

MR. ROSENBERG: This is for the first grade, 196l1--

MR, MORIAL: We mean the legend on the table.

THE COURT: They don't attack the accuracy, and

counsel has already stated he prepared it, and he will make

himself available for cross examination.

MR. MORIAL: We would have no objection if he would

put the information that he just indicated on the ==

THE COURT: Without being sworn?

MR. MORIAL: Yes, sir.

MR, ROSENBERG: I will be happy to.

THE COURT: Well, you don't have to do that at

the moment, does he?

MR, MORIAL: No, sir.

THE COURT: We will let all those documents be

admitted.

MR. ROSENBERG:

well, this will be 24 A,

The last one was 23, which was =~

B, C, and D.

I mark these exhibits 1964 OPSB-24 (A), for the

year 1961, and (B) for the year 1961-'62; and (C) for the

year 1962-'63; and (D) for the year 1963-'64, and I would

like the record to indicate that all four of these charts

were prepared on the identical scale which is 1/20th of an

inch equals one pupil.

MR, NABRIT: 1/20th of an inch across the =~

MR. ROSENBERG:

Running from left to right.

(Whereupon, the documents above re-

ferred to, marked for identification

as OPSB-1 through OPSB~24 were

received in evidence.)

Now, may it please the Court, I

would like to call as a witness for the Board Mr. Dean, who

is the administrative superintendent in charge of adminis~

tration.

JAMES E., DEAN, JR,

Called as a witness at the instance of the

Orleans Parish School Board, having been duly sworn, was

examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. ROSENBERG:

Q Mr. Dean, what is your occupation, sir?

A Assistant Superintendent in charge of school

Administration.

Q Were you employed in a like capacity last year?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you appear as a witness in a hearing in this

case which was held last year?

A Yes, sir.

Q Do you recall, Mr, Dean, that last year there was

introduced in evidence a recommendation of the Superintendent

to the Orleans Parish School Board which was dated March 11,

1963, and was introduced in evidence last year setting forth

the Superintendent's recommendations?

A Yes, sir,

Q And do you recall also that om March 11, 1963, the

Orleans Parish School Board adopted a resolution which called

for the submission of the plan to this Court, do you not?

A Yes, sir.

Q And you recall that there was a hearing last year

recommendation actually carried out by the administrative

which resulted in an opinion being handed down by Judge

Ellis on May 17, 19637

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, Mr. Dean, I have just offered, introduced

and filed in evidence a copy of the Superintendent's recom-

mendation to the Board, setting forth the administrative

procedure, and I marked same for identification OPSB-8.

Now, are you familiar with this document, Mr.

A Yes, sir.

Q And the accompanying documents marked OPSB=9

for identification, are you?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, what part did you play in carrying out and

executing the administrative procedures which are set forth

in that recommendation of the Superintendent which has been

approved by the Board?

A The instructions to the principals in regard to

the holding of the necessary registration came through my

office; the registration was held in the school, and the

blanks were returned to my office, and I was in charge of

the committee that processed the handling of the registration,

the assignment of the children.

) Q Was the procedure described and prescribed in that

BR —————

25 rolled in the single zone, in May of 1963, pursuant to the

staff of the Orleans Parish School Board?

A Yes, sir.

Q On what date, Mr. Dean, in 1963 was the regis~

tration held?

A May 29, and that was Wednesday, May 29, and the

30th, May 30th, and Friday, May 31st.

Q Was any public notice given of the fact that there

was to be such registration?

A Yes, it was published. The notice was published

in the newspapers, and a copy of the single zone map was

printed in the newspapers, and information to go with the

map as to what districts were went into the papers. We also

had some TV and radio coverage.

Q Did notices go out also to the schools?

A Yes, notices went to the schools, prepared through

my office, and in order that the parents would be notified

by their children.

Q As a result of that, Mr. Dean, was registration

actually held for the first and second grades in 19637

A Yes, it was.

Q I show you now a document which has been identified

and marked for identification 1964 OPSB~19, and I ask you,

does this correctly set forth the actual number of children

from the various schools, and the schools at which they en-

orders of this Court?

A Yes, it does.

Q Now, I show you an exhibit which was marked for

identification as 10 -=-

May it please the Court, for the purpose of the

transcript, in referring to these exhibits, I am just going

to refer to them by the number instead of the long prefix.

Now, this Exhibit number 10, which was a directive

by the Board to the Superintendent to comply with the Court's

order entered on May 17, I ask you whether you are familiar

with that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Pursuant to this directive, what steps, to your

knowledge, did the Superintendent and his administrative

staff take in order to comply with the Court's order?

The certified, or registered -- I can't remember |
4

whether it was certified or registered, but they had return

receipts requested letters which were sent to the parents

of all children who requested admission to a white school,

and any Negro child who requested admission to a white school

in '60-'61, or '61-'62, the parents were invited, and the

letter was signed by the Superintendent and went out from

the Superintendent's office, not my office, but, in turn, I

was asked, along with certain other assistant superintendents,

to be prepared and available to interview the parents if they

came in and still wished to transfer their children to

formerly all white schools.

This was done. Every parent who came in was inter-

viewed by a staff member, and he was instructed as to how

to fill out the necessary permit or request forms, and the

permit requests ~~ I mean the permit card for admission was

then filled out, and transmitted to the superintendent. And

in each case every parent who requested and still wished

their child to go to a formerly all white school, was granted

such a permit.

Q No parent was denied the right to have their

child attend a formerly all white school, who made application

A No parent was denied; every parent who made =-~-

every parent who applied, the child was admitted.

Q Mr. Dean, do you recall the number of children

whose parents applied for lateral transfers at the third and

fourth grade levels last year?

A I am reasonably sure that the number was 35.

THE COURT: That would be for both of these grades?

MR. ROSENBERG: That would be for the third and

fourth grades last year, your Honor.

THE COURT: That would be a total of 35?

MR. ROSENBERG: A total of 35, apparently came in.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

| BY MR, ROSENBERG:

E
a
]

Q I show you this exhibit 1964 OPSB-21, which shows

a total of 19 children in the third grade, and 27 children

in the fourth grade, and ask you if those figures were

correct for the total third and fourth grades?

A Yes, sir.

Q That would include in the third grade four children

who had come up through the desegregation process and were

not included in those who had not previously been accepted?

Is that correct?

That is correct. i

H
g

Q Mr. Dean, would you be in a position to know if

there were any complaints by any parent as to the failure of

their being notified, or any other objections that they might

have as to their children not being allowed the right to

laterally transfer at the third and fourth grade level?

A There were no complaints of any kind that came to

my office.

Q Now, if there would have been any complaints, they

would have come to your office, wouldn't they?

A It would be the logical place, since all principals

report to the assistant superintendent in my division or to

me directly, and in either case I would have gotten the com~

plaints.

Q Now, after the children were registered, Mr. Dean,

in 1963, would you state for the record the total number of

n
N

children that registered in the first grade in 19637

A That was 2,693.

Q Registered in formerly all white schools?

A Formerly all white schools, yes.

Q How many in the second grade in formerly all

schools? o
t

w
e

Jo
do

A 2,669,

Q And how many in formerly all colored schools in

Q And in the second grade in formerly all colored

schools?

A 5,107.

Fa A 3 Pw 3: - F v4 114 r} 1 y 4 oso Lo Q And that is a total of slightly in excess of

15,000 registrations, is that correct? Is that correct,

Mr. Dean?

A That appears to be correct, sir.

Q Sir?

A It seems to be correct; I didn't add it, of course.

Q Explain briefly to the Court what was done with

these applications? Were these just received and filed away?

Or was there anything to do with these applications?

A The mechanical process followed was that every

application individually was proofread by a member of the

Superintendent's staff. I proofread many of them. Other

members of the staff proofread many of them.

After being completely proofread, and the records,

all those that were in complete order, were then turned over

to the census department, which prepared the assignment

sheet, and the assignment card, so that the children might

be assigned in September. Those that had permits attached

to them, after we had proofread them through the staff com=-

mittee, were then turned over to the Superintendent who,

himself, went over these again before approving the permits.

Q Now, Mr. Dean, was any Negro child denied the

right to attend a formerly all white school where he lived

in the district, the new single zone district of that formerly

all white school?

A No, sir. No Negro child was denied the right to

go to the school in his single zone.

Q Now, did any Negro children who did not live in

the zone of a formerly all white school apply for a transfer

permit to attend that formerly all white school?

A Yes, sir.

Q Were any of those children denied the right to

attend this formerly all white school?

A No, sir.

Q So that, Mr. Dean, in so far as this lawsuit is

concerned, in the first and second grades no Negroes who were

in the first and second grades, who applied to attend any

white school anywhere in the city, were denied the right to

2 attend that school? Is that correct?

3 That is correct.They weren't denied the right to

8 4 attend any white school in the city.

: Q There can be no question about that in your mind,

6 can there?

7 A There is no question.

: Q Did you or any member of the School Board Admin-

? istrative Staff, to your knowledge, receive any complaint

6 from any Negro parent as to the method in which these children

H were both registered and enrolled?

32 A No, sir, no complaints.

| 33 Q In addition to the registration in the first

14 and second grades under a single zone, and in addition to

is the lateral transfers at the third and fourth grade level,

1s there was also an order issued by this Court in May of 1963

iy relative to the desegregation of Benjamin Franklin; what was

15 done relative to that, Mr. Dean?

3 A Publicity was given in the newspapers stating

| 20 that all children might apply who were eligible, whe thought

21 they were eligible. 39 children applied. They were given

x 22 | exactly the same admission test as had been given in the
|

23 | past to all white children, and of the 39 that applied,

24 || 14 were admitted. One dropped out, and 13 actually became

i students of Benjamin Franklin.

Q Were these applicants handled any differently

from the way that white children were handled?

A They were handled exactly the same way.

Q Did you receive any complaints or any protests

either from any Negro children or their parents relative to

the manner in which the desegregation of Benjamin Franklin

was carried out?

A I did not receive any complaint in this matter.

Q Do you know if any of the administrative staff

received any complaints?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Now, Mr. Dean, when school opened in September of

1963, did any children other than those who had pre-registered

in May, show up in formerly all white schools? Negro

children?

A Yes.

Q I show vou a copy of the exhibit OPSB~1l, and I

direct your attention to the pages 14 and 15 thereof, and I

ask you if that does not indicate that by October 16, 1963,

there were 199 Negro children attending formerly all white

schools, and 133 Negro children attending formerly all Negro

schools? Excuse me. In the second 133, Negro children in

the second grade attending formerly all white schools?

A That is correct. There were 199 Negro children

in formerly all white schools in the first grade, and 133 in

~<F
3

N
J

Lose

S 4

1 Te Lo
ads

}
o

oo
3

or
Q

Ue
I

r
e

rel
ed

:
a

cs
=

.
p
o

CO
b
l

&
0

Y
Q

$3
goed

75]
=

L
O

pu
0

oO
u

v
i

“rd
ord

el
T

4
3

QU
Q

od
E
w

ey
4)

;
"

4
43

$4
Ld

ord
4)

Mi
dd

4
|

B
o
1%

P
u
i

p
A

whet
o
k

i
.

s
W
a

o
y

$
d

Q
o

o
y

oa
y
t

y
f
g

:
i

old

f
o

73)
p
o
d

in
o
u

(
5

4
3

opel
¢

W
O

QO
4)

[4
o
i

pe
201

wo
dod

ow
vd

Oe
=

»
Q

oo
«

E
a

HM
~

4
3

o
e

”

i" «

y
d

oe
al

$
d

dod
a

4
0

wed
bd

oO
oy

dod
pod

o
d

or
0

ord
.

.
»

“0
Ls

W
w

P
o

w
h
t

u
d

n
tt

i
n
y

P
h

Li)
h
i

Qo
e
d

oe]
o
l

-
)

i
o

oy
0

o
i

o
r

(

; Pe
(
|

¢:
3
3

o
r

L&
®

¢J
yod

3)
w

o
d

pt
O

|
3

n
e

v
d

vw
ot

4
”

3
3

od
=

|
ord

as
pr

{ 4

oi
!

4)
phd

Vi
od

he
*

&
od

o
d

2
]

&
C

H
e
d

gored
5

i
s

d
i
a

\
J

45)
=

P
o
w

R
”

ot
73

ors
&

4
#

1%)
i
7

O
n
e

$
=

p
r
o
g

P
h

t
3

»
A

(
3
)

F
i

#
4

y
a
d

4
|

oJ
hod

r
e

}

eh)
p
d

pitt
pote

po!
i

|
i

;
O

(4 ]
@

il
EO)

(
h
s

b,
o
l

s
g

$
4

|
J

ks
od

A Except for certain reports that had to be made

Q Now, Mr. Dean, the next thing that happened that

is relevant to this case was the entering by Judge Ellis o

an interim order, which ordered the Board to proceed to

hildren for the kindergarten for the year 1964-

65, which order was issued on the 25th of May.

Do you recall that?

A Yes, I am quite familiar with it,

Q Now, I show you now an exhibit previously intro-

11 <4 . qe i ” # $ 4% 8 4 $

duced and marked number 11 for identification, bein o
Q

" ss

12 » ™ oy x wo Ba

resolution of the Board passed at a meeting on May 25, 1964,

Wilch was tie same, cine ni

Court issued the interim order, and I ask you if you are

1 cht of the same date that this

familiar with that resolution of the Board?

16 a '
A Yes, sir.

17 # i

Q Now, this resolution of the Board sets fortl

1 ® 4 2 33 > | a . : -

5 certain policies relative to the conduct of the schools and

19 Ho ia tad 3 ” -
the registration, the desegregation plan for the year 1964,

and concluded by a directive of the Superintendent to estab-

ures for the orderly registration and

23 public schools for the session beginning September, 1964.

2 | kG 1 2 : PD. 3 * * p- 3 ‘ he BN 4

4 Now, pursuant to this directive of the Board, did

PW ot ews dole Py CN patna MES a ~ 3 Ta - wa. 4 ne Te 3
you work with the Superintendent in setting forth and pre~

-
.

h
a

A
a

p
+

b
w
A

¢
J

Ki
E

W
O

fo
(#

bi
w
d

h
v

o
N

v
a

jo
&

4
or

rid
ord

I 4

2
1

3
Ad

(0
oye]

oe
4
3
)

teed
M
M

n
n
|

opr

o
e

0
0

9
a
3

3
-

|
™

”

4
3

fedod
a
a

N
—

od
0

oe
or

vd
2

od
Js

pot
”

T'S
|

:
fe

"
a

od
3)

D
go

™

o
e

|
;

pot
y

W
w

t
r
n

|
t
e
o
w

J
e
d

p
i
n
d

NE
V
i

#
"

i
y

1
Bl

|
y
a
n

-
W
W

|
3

(
N

>
4

P
d

3
—

p
o
r

h
o

|
o
p

“

|
oO

QO
4
3

|
a

a
s

~~
o
t

a
.

4
|

13
Pohvend

»
d

4
he

wet
|

.
“od

CJ
|

*3
W
w

ord

b
d

o
O

o
t

D
o

I
»

A
~
~

w
d

145]
i
s
}

o
o

g
i
,

|
>

4d
rien

™

h(®
43]

[43]
*

od
o
O

is
aed

u
n

f
o

Fa
$

fran)
pase)

0
0

Q
Q

|
b
e
d

Sd
”

:
31J

Pa
"n

“

O
e

t
i
d

3
el

a
{

food
th

od
w
p

|
Q

4.
L
d

|
(3)

4
oo.

|
”

|
8

r
m

&
:

y
W

|
m
t

o
d

|
b
u
t

5
3

: W

3
=

A
R

1
|

r
d

e
e

b
d

|
J

.
O

wo
|

-
4H

Oo
4

P
o

£
4

ion

J
d

vot
n
d

Ey
4
3

.
Q

*
0

o
s

4
5
]

B
Ss

B
g

B
a

po
Pt

of
a.

el
th

I
t

S
g

i “3

o
d

p
g

“y

{

I
]

ho
TR

C
pa

Tue
ord

wi
e
t

o
p
]

is
.

4
i:

U
d

ord

cS
=

ts
8

oS
Q

Ll
o

;

"
we

“

£
3

Te
|

™

f
b
i
»

s
o

P
t

od
—

p
t

¥
)

o
O

o
l

i
)

or
J

5
S
J

"
3

”
-

hy
@

™

ot
a

Uy
AS

ga
"

oN
hy

of
-

wed

9
{a

h
2d

2
¢

ood
4d

]

£
)

a
s

w
p

3
o
l

Ie
8

Mw
bi

je,
&

:
[
.

o
y

soul

h
a
t

r
y

poy

£4

1d
Q

oF
pt

£
3

bv
or

Wo)
,

i
»

pn
yooed

et
oi

‘

W
w

[

ha
M

ha
4

phe
4

:
3

LW
Q

oe
rd

ba
oped

p--
oun

ook
3
)

[oP
|

3
8

8
8S

:
:

- i

E
E

p
o

ot
oo

]

bi
ed

9
Q

p
=

¢
Oo

0
9

e
B

£
1

“
a
d

wp
§

cl
sped

r
y

h
e

$4
Ged

3,
R
e

o
>

i
J

a
p
d

;
m
e

4:
fo}

«0

3.
-

u
4

¢
)

4}!
J

a
t

$
d

r
l

uy,

pire
[|

od
ol

prt
13

he
eo

od
.

w
e

—

(
9

%
p
H

o
t

p-.
:

hood

4
d

«
a

pivot

=
~

¢ 3]
3

”

p
y

Re
.

Re
at

re
5

|®
hd

;
£
™

o
e

for
G)

Wve

b
o

by
c
o

o
t

a
)

4
}

\i2

but
a

M
po

whet

e
t

o
n

L
e

S
o
d

“
5

4
3
)

f
t

o
b

[
o
f

}

R
a
b

]

L
t

pot
r
o
o
d

™
e

‘
b
e

(
5

{

M
d

p34
-

N
y

pnd
hoo

pd
:

r
t

oped
.

iw |

A
r
e

Fe
ol

d
d

ves

bol

145)

o
d

w
i

fan

p
i

2
4

.
1

f
i

£3
Fal}

L
J

o
t

4
3

od
3
d

dod
#
8

by,
w
i

pred
p
a

io
v
y

[a]

a
|

S
y

pos

ada

o
d

(
2

wl!

4 :

o
d

a
a

{

nd
i,

a
oe)

od
4d

}
i

.
#4

g
mw

8
g

p
p

pos

0
9

8
B

d
3

B
a

ha
rd

is
3d

LJ
bef

wl
+

=
o
d

2
]

R
s

t
r
)

{

rd 3
LE

i
s

?
a
o

b
e
g

{

Lod

Eo
|

P
O

S
d

w
t

k |
yoped

hy
pro

™

p
r

pond

C
o

L
H

OE]
o
e

[014
B
w

hove
«i

p
a

oe
[oe

%
Phat

i
u

4
th

a
r

ust
oped

p
n
t

“
u

“

P
n

’

w
o

hres

L
L

b
d

i
f

{

T
e
r

a
—
—

p
e
e
d
4

4
3
]

Q
J

~
~

w
e

M
o
y

o
h

E
w

ys
EB

Pat
-

ol.
<

bi
Q

a
t

£
9

wig

p
i

p
o

sped
L 3

“

I
.

“

4
5
]

a,
Oo

-
hy

x0
2)

ea.

5
oped

le)

yood

)

of
.

}
e
y

b
e

_
-

bt
e
l

Cad
3
3

—

w
d

Shy

ut
Pon

r
y

p
o

b
d

oe |
[13
.

™
~
N

o
d

o
N

p
o

N
o
N

o
N

o
n

o
N

-
$

o
N

w
y

o
N

~
~

1 Q That document sets forth the number of children

91
}

fo
s

££

oO
4.

[
4

O
Q

n
H

45
)

£
L

a
d

fo
d that registered for

Lila Teg Stered Ior

& 5 1 rvs arn Ben 1 4 of the elementary schools o a
y

8
)

£5
] 4

o
Q

(1
)
2

47
]

L
43

]
as

[
a

i
e

Lac Correct, sir!

t Negro children who applied to a
t

o
u
d

P
e

w
e

4
5]

§
wh
y

™

b
d

Bu
d

L
Y

fs
]
a

e
t

por
oy
W

p
d

attend formerly all white schools, how many of them applied

to enter

me how many Negro children -- of

Q To enter kindergarten?

In formerly all white schools? 127.

Q I show you this Exhibit 15, and I ask you if that

L 7
4

not a correct breakdown of that 127?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q Now, Mr. Dean, how many Negro children applied

the first grade in formerly all white schools?

Q I show you this Exhibit 16, which is a tabulation

“4

of that 155, and compared witl figures in 1963, and

TT. | dL foo Ton — 4 oo 4 ” be 4 I ask you if those figures are correct?

ihey are correct, sir.

3 Now, Mr. Dean, in registering the children for

the first grade under the single zone system in June of 1964

for the school session commencing in September, 1964, were

there any Negro children who registered to attend a formerly L ow

all white school denied the privilege of attending that

school?

fo
d .

No, they were not denied the privilege.

If those children lived in the district set up

for that school, were their applications treated any differ-

ently than the applications of white children who lived in

A Not one bit different, Exactly the same, sir.

Q What was done with those registrations or those

A Just as in 1963, they were completed, completely

checked, proofread by the staff, and when found completely

in order, were then turned over to the census department in

order that an assignment sheet could be made out for the

school and cards sent to the parents admitting them to school

next year.

o
m

Q Have you run up a rough total of the applications

that were processed in this fashion, Mr. Dean? The total

applications for registration?

About 12,000.

Have notices yat been sent out to the parents of

children who registered to attend the first grade?

A Yes, those with and without requests for permits,

all of them were sent out.

Q And you are telling this Court that every Negro

child who registered to attend the first grade in a former ‘ly

; all white school had already been notified that he will be

Q How many of those Negro children were told that

A None were told that thev could not attend. All

7 were told that they could attend,

|
4
1
)

e
t

£3

r
t

e staff received any ped
e il avren = oo $1 Pre J |

nave you Or the aaminl

4 complaints or objections or protests from any Negro parent

relative to the manner in which registration was conducted?

Pursuant to the order of this Court, you also

conducted registration for kindergarten, is that so. sir? Rad a b 4 EJ

inat 1s correct, sir.

Q Now, in the administrative staff -- well, are you

and the administrative staff physically able to actually enroll

if it be the order of {
jot

o
t
a

Po
de

o
d

re
d fe {]

o
w

fou

f
d

o
t

po
d

r
r

this Court for you to do so?

A Yes, sir.

Do you know, Mr. Dean, of any respect in which

the orders of this Court have not been fulfilled and carrie

out, the orders that were issued in May of 1963 and the interis

To the best of my knowledge that has been completel
wt Ln

G
s

E
N

1
M

|
als
Sr

™

~
¥

H
y

p
o
n

o
N

F
s
—

to offer

go on

read

want

have some

your ca

some of these on

PROCEEDINGS
(AFTERNOON SESSION)

COURT: Are we ready?

AL: This might be somewhat unusual, but Lgl 3

hibits, and perhaps we should have attempted

time Mr. Rosenberg offered his.

's On the contrary you should ~=-

AL: If possible, we would like to offer

WURT: On the contrary, the exhibits should

se in chief, and unless you want some to

ORIAL: We thought that we probably might

w
examination, and we

thought that we could just save the Court's time by =--

prec

start

po
» a Te te

LOX

introduci

You can go ahead and identii

[: Well, it is a bad procedure, or bad

1. you want me to establish here by letting you

documents when the other side is still

fy them, and you can
of

™

and you can tender them to the witness

examination.

ALL: We will do that.

RT: I think that is the best procedure,

iNBERG: Mr. Dean, take the stand, please.

ntary me Fle
oy
| &

1 am correct.

L
d

aon
a a
|

f
n
J

.
¥

S
n
e
l

oad
t
h

A Junior and senior highschools.

Q And your system is six grades elementary and

three grades junior high?

A Six, three, three. Six elementary, three junior

high, and three senior high.

Q Are there any new school buildings now that are

not listed in the Facts and Figures booklet?

A I think that may have come out before the Lawless

Junior Highschool, adjacent to the Lawless Elementary, was

put into operation, and before the Algiers area -- I am trying

to remember the name of the school now, that new junior high-

school in Algiers, Karr Junior Highschool. Both of those

opened at mid-term, or shortly after. I believe a week or

two after mid-term, and this came out in October. So I don't

believe they are listed.

Q Now, the Lawless Junior Highschool, is that an

all Negro school?

A It is a school in a Negro neighborhood, and it

does serve Negro children, yes.

Q Now, other schools? What is the name of that?

Is that Edmond Karr Junior?

A Yes, Edmond Karr Junior.

Q And that is ¥«g-r-r?

A Yes, and it is in Algiers, and it serves a white

area.

Q On your direct examination you testified about

the desegregation plan that was presented in March of 1963.

Under that plan the single zones, that is, the single zone

system is brought into effect in a gradual basis, over a

period of time, isn't that correct?

A Under that plan the single zone was put into

effect for the first and second grades, and we expected to

add one grade each year thereafter.

September,

The first and second grades in September, 1963 --

Right.

-- and under the plan the third grade will be

19647

Correct.

Four grades, by September of 1965?

This was my understanding.

And fifth grade in September, 19667?

Yes, sir. This is, again, my understanding.

I don't have the plan in front of me.

Q And the sixth grade in 19677?

MR. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I object

to the question on the ground that the plan speaks for itself.

It is an exhibit here, and it is detailed in all of its

details, in the written exhibit, and it speaks for itself.

MR. NABRIT: Is he objecting to us knowing what

year 2 grade is going to be desegregated?

THE COURT: What is the purpose of the testimony?

MR, NABRIT: I am asking him to explain the plan

that he testified on cross examination. In order to explain

the plan which he testified about under direct examination,

I want to get the time table in the record so that it is

perfectly clear =--

THE COURT: Well, that seems to be a very broad

question, and I doubt whether we can get a specific answer

on the question as it is, but proceed with the examination.

I overrule the objection.

THE WITNESS: Mr. Nabrit, to answer your question,

I understand the plan included one grade each additional year.

Now, mathematically, I could make an answer as to what year,

but it would be one grade per year.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Would you start from the beginning there, and give

it to me straight from the beginning, which grade is covered

each year?

A '63-'64, we had grades 1 and 2; '64-'65 would be

grade 3; '65-'66 would be grade 4; '66-'67 would be grade 5;

'67-'68 would be grade 6; '68-'69 would be grade 7; '69-'70

would be grade 8; '70-'71 would be 9; '71-'72 would be 103

*72-'73 would be 11; '73-'74 would be 12.

Q Thank you, sir.

On direct examination you testified about the

registration that you conducted May 29, 30 and 31, 1963 for

grades 1 and 27

A Right.

Q Now, how are pupils in the first grade registered

at that time? What were they told?

A Any pupil -~ it was published in the newspapers,

the map of the zones, and the parents were told that any

pupil, regardless of race, might register in these schools

in his single zone ~~ he had this right. If a pupil did not

choose to register in the school of his zone, he might go to

a school of his choice, fill out an application for assignment

and attach to it an application for permit, which might or

might not be granted, depending on the administrative pro-

cedure to be followed later.

Q Thank you.

Was that same thing true of pupils in the second

A That was true of the first and second grades.

Q The pupils in the second grade at that point, on

May 19, 1963,were then attending schools in the first grade?

Right?

A Yes, most of them would have been.

Q What was the mechanics for the pupils, second

grade pupils, were their parents required to come to the =--

A A parent or tutor was expected to come with the

child to register, that is correct, because the application

for school assignment requires the person responsible for

the child to sign it.

Q For that group of people, the second grade pupils,

if they did not come to a particular school and register,

were they reassigned to a school that they were already in?

A No, sir. We dismissed school for the day of

registration, or the principal was allowed, if they thought

it would work mechanically better, and some principals did

not dismiss the pupils and some did, but we took the attitude

that all assignments for first and second grade children were

null and void for the next year and every child must register.

If they did not come to re-register, to register in the pre-

registration, they were not admitted in except until the

parent did come and register.

Q So that all of the second grade parents had to

eventually come?

A Parents or tutors =-- someone representing or taking

the place of parents.

Q Do you know whether or not any of the pupils, white

or Negro, who registered outside their district on that occa-

sion, were denied the registration in the schools they sought?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q As far as you know, all were permitted to register

in the schools, were permitted to attend the school where they

n
N

registered, even if they registered outside of their zone?

A To the best of my knowledge every child was allowed

to register at the school of his choice, and the assignment,

then it was up to my office and the Superintendent, of course,

really, to make the final decision on the assignment.

Q Do you know how many people, approximately, were

registered outside of their zone, attending school outside

of their zone?

A It is on the exhibit there, and I don't know ==

I would hate to call the figure from memory.

Q Well, I will show you the exhibit so you can have

it accurately.

Referring to 1964 OPSB~19 --

A ‘64-1637

Q Do you see what I mean?

A Yes.

1964-19 ==

MR, ROSENBERG: I didn't catch the witness’

answer, and the question.

What year did you say?

THE WITNESS: It is 1963, and this is what he

wanted,

MR, ROSENBERG: '63?

MR, NABRIT: We are trying to get the exhibit

number.

THE WITNESS: At the first grade there were 344

children who registered for formerly all white schools, who

live outside of the district itself, and had permits requested

and everything was completed.

There were also 29 who live out of the district

and had applications for permits attached, but there was

something incomplete; and there were 344, plus 29 would be

373 total children, white and colored, who asked to go to

all white schools, and who lived out of the district.

In the children registered for formerly all Negro

schools, there were 350; 35 first graders whose applications

for assignment and permits were complete, and 318 second

graders; and with incomplete applications, 34 first and 33

second, or a total of ~~ if I may add this, 369 first graders,

and 351 second graders, if my addition in my head is correct.

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q So those were all? So those were Negro children?

A No, those were all children who lived out of the

district, who asked for permits at the re-registration.

Q Now, on the second page of this exhibit, there

are no white children in those categories?

A No, there were no white children; the only white

children lived in the district.

Q To recapitulate, all of the white children who

lived in Negro school zones and sought assignments outside

of their district, were granted; and all of the Negro children

who sought assignments outside of the district, either in

white or Negro schools, were granted? Right?

A That is correct.

Q You said a moment ago that the registration was

published in the newspapers, and every parent was =-- well,

was every parent required to register in the first grade as

well as the second for every child?

A Every child who wished to attend at the first or

second grade had to come, or have a parent or guardian or

tutor appear with him, to complete the registration forms at

the school of his choice, that is correct.

Q Do you know how many Negro pupils were eligible

to attend white schools? Well, how many Negro pupils lived

in the zones of a white school?

A I could not give you that figure from memory, no.

Q On direct examination you testified about certain

pupils who, in the third and fourth grades, who were offered

the right of lateral transfers, and I believe you indicated

that 35 Negroes transferred at the third and fourth grade

level? 1s that correct?

A To the best of my knowledge, that figure is cor-

rect.

Q What was the size of the group that that 35 was

| part of? How many of them were offered thatopportunity?

A Again, to the best of my knowledge, it was

roughly 220,

Q And what was the notice as to that? Was that

the letter?

A A letter was sent from the Superintendent's office

telling them that under the orders of the Federal District

Court that they had the right to register in the white school

nearest their home, formerly all white schools.

Q What was the procedure for them? I think you

indicated that they were asked to come in?

A They were asked to come in to the School Board

office prior to the beginning of school. And when they came

in, I interviewed them, if I was available; if not, one of

the other assistant superintendents did, and gave them the

proper requests for permit forms, and saw that they were

filled out, proofread while they were there, so there could

be no blanks left out or mistakes, and then approved it as

a committee recommendation and forwarded to the Superintendent,

and they were assigned.

THE COURT: May I ask one or two questions on that

matter of lateral transfers because this Court was very much

interested in a matter of lateral transfers at that particular

time for the reason that there had been, in a court order

issued by Judge Wright, and there had been the ups and downs

in the case, and it just seemed like that justice might best

be done by giving a retroactive effect to the time of Judge

Wright's order so that the School Board would be in a position

of going into compliance with the initial Wright order,

and not the subsequent order integrating the second grade,

but prior to that time, and, therefore, the Court in order

to fully and completely recognize all of the rights, Con-

stitutionally, coming to the persons attending Negro and

white schools in this area, I suggested that you send personal

letters to each one of these previous applicants under

the Wright order,

Did you do that?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: At the time of the Wright order you

had turned these people down, is that not correct?

THE WITNESS: Yes, we were using pupil placement,

and they had not gotten through.

THE COURT: And they had been through the rigors

of pupil placement integration?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: And the new levels that went out

under the order which this Court promulgated, is the one that

Mr. Nabrit is asking you about?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And you were given instructions by

this Court to pereonally notify the pupils and the guardians

or nearest of kin, and did you do that?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, by either certified or

registered mail, with the return receipt requested,

THE COURT: And did you admit each and every one

of these individuals who came to school for the purpose of

this registration and lateral transfer?

THE WITNESS: Yes, everyone that came to the School

Board office, as the letter asked, was admitted.

THE COURT: And if you considered Judge Wright's

opinion to be an order, his original order, 1960, you were

then in effect saying that the school system of this Parish

had been in integration since 1960 because of the effect

which this Court gave to the Wright opinion?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

1dE COURT: Suppose you had gone into immediate

compliance with Judge Wright's decree; you would have had

the same number of applicants that you did have, and which

you would have accepted, 1s that correct?

THE WITNESS: We have accepted all of the appli~

cants.

THE COURT: Under my judgment they were given a

second chance, is that correct?

THE WITNESS: That is right.

THE COURT: That is all I have.

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, the Super-

intendent has just gone out to put in a phone call to his

office, and we will have sent over an actual copy of the

actual letters that were sent out. I did not think that

the Court would be interested in that, but that will be here

within the half hour.

THE COURT: That is all right, and it was just

a question of good faith that was involved here, and it

concerns the Court of Appeals as well as this Court.

I will try not to interrupt you again.

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q Now, this letter of transfer, the third and fourth

grades that we have been talking about, were effective

September, 1963, is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And there were, by your recollection, around 225

eligibles?

A Trusting my memory, the year 1960-'61, when I

was not an assistant superintendent but was a principal,

the figure I remember best is about 120 who had applied.

The following year it was possibly 95 to 100; so, I am

estimating that we must have had around 220 families to

send this letter to, and only 35 came in.

Q So you don't know whether some of those overlapped,

some of the same children, some applying there in '60 were

the same children that applied ~--

“
o
e

pow
a

bod
-
,

C
h
e

p
o
d

rr
©

4
d

bet
o
r

o
t

A
F

o
e

e
y

”

t
p
g

"
*

4
w
n

«
©

I
w
s

3
$
3

o
s

oar
fred

f
y

43)
s
i
d

pie
o
r

o
t

O
o

w
e

h
o
d

bpd

o
d

™

ha
L
E
R

p
r
e
d

3
r

P
o
d

a
n

a
]

Bo
£7

~~
§

.
-

fad
et

[

.
peed

po
i

Tay!
i
$

pod

pas.
i

nord
=

by b+
ot 4

r
n

o
O

w L
i

be A

|
for

en
el

oped
43]

ba
3

open]
a

o
p
e
}

V
i

",
»

i
A

&
d

G
l

|
_-

h
e

a
]

4
h
a
a

—

ol
ox

:
ree]

bod
=

ord
fd

ct
0

a3
[gh

{
pri

g
t

oi
’

e
y

h
e

ny
a

x
E
R

-
B
o
w
.

T
E

oe
HER

i
A

opel
8

3
d

e
d

"
~

oped
J

h
w

hie
i
a

pos
}

as
A

¥3)

O
Q

d
d

h
o

3
4

8
)

e
d

441
145]

»
e
d

h
d

"
r~t

aed
Ay

ot
0

rd
eg

wW
0

H
O
M

Oo
¢

™

RE
}

3
H

£
3

sped
Wd

hed
0

oo
a

d
d

v
d

a)
o
O

:
h
e

o
N
,

h
d

esl
&

hid
nd

Sue
E
R

O
Q

S
d

r
y

w
e
d

o
m

p
a
t

ort
e
d

hil
|

wind
p
d

.
o
r
’

{
%

y
i

|
|

"
Vv

pmol
a
y
)

)
&

p
o
)

Fes]
[#9

o
n

a]
B
y
!

3
v
e

[43]
W
W

E
M

=
,

youd
od

ae
«

.
th

ye
0

5)
Ka

[om

o
m

o
l

45)
Q
O

b
l

wih
rd

v
3

o
t

(
a

-
i
)

A
D

fod
r

Bet
a

2
]

[a6 }
8

F
a

™

h
o

hs
-

(A
|

e
t

hd
ba

:
pie

1.3

p
>

povad
;

s
d

P
by

f
o
n

:
ii

-
y

a3
¥

ry
bd

4
oO

d
d

a
d

h
l

rim
S
d

¢
3

Tt.
O

i
e

45)
t

i
o
d

M
m

r
s

e
t

b
d

bis
(

p
e

m
M

i
J

E
N

oped
bn

has
-

Oo
-

hi
by

or
w
d

Fo)
7

W..
—

Q
a
r
e

v
A

SE
<
a

D
©

uv
3

r
d

.
J

r
r

fo
i

w
y

o
d

[6a
*

"V3
on

J
£2

oped
4
3

py
1)

W. re
a

.
jo

Li
oh

so
p

w
d

=
0

H
O

J
AE

FEY
EY

»
H

Sod
S
d

—-—

(
|

ks
aud

p
r
a
]

Pe.
n
d

ve
y

b
o
r
d

i
E

L
o
)

o
e

B
n
,

w
i

tet
p
a

441
49)

p
o
d

pe
;

rot

a
y

o
d

br
-

Pry
.

8
(
I

iL
d=

o
y

vod
3

P
o

os
3
3

¢
i

£
3

io
=

Ls
po

helt
£
2

Pas
o
p

h
i
d

pr
o
t

oemd
1)

3¥)
B
Y

fas

pi
'

a
s

{ -

age
|

h &
:

oy y
l

o
O

0
g

pos
i

Ww
ore

.
™

’
ho |

t
d

fo
ord

e
d

—

.
"
o
e

p
t

WR
e
e

TR
Pt

r
y

od
4
4

p
o
i

(
4

.
—

3d
=

d
d

Le
E
y

U
d

od
@

B
a

¢
ir!

W
W

v
d

¥
o
d

M
d

po’
Po

|
p
e
d

/
o
w

o
O

L
W

|
«

r
d

f
n

L
a

red
N

b
r

N
o
f

Ww
&
0

ord
r
o

4
3

e
h

3
3

4
3

(
®

p
o
y

“*
t
r

a
)

4
ol

+
»

7A
H
R

E
E

u
3

-
&

4s
0

cl
w

Ay
¢

od
o

Pp
=

Oo
0

v2
|

a3
U
d

43
QO

Che
r
i

bey
ny

S
d

b
d

pi]
1

ya
E
t

1
)

x
3

hak.
“

14
i

‘
Bo
I

;
Lin

“

rh
o
e

r
y

£
2

oped
wel

p
o

be
P
N

e
t

o
r

C
S

arth
a

vie
1

r
t

$2
©

g2
4°

EB
¢

=~
4

ao
oo

o
g

0
£4

~
5

-
<0

De
O
.

43
J

oot
0

o
w

th
0

8
0

Qo
e
=

wd
-

3
438

¥
i.

¢
[4

w
a

p
3

Bcd]

so]
phe

v
d

P
t

food
S
|

t
h

—
l

Und
ov

oped
wed

ort
©

h
y

r
tO)

C
J

i
h

’
spd

3
d

oped
food

a |
Roc

(
&
)

opel
.

foe

:
S
E

Co
n

rd
H

a
©

ri
-

.
-

o)
e
R

R
i
e
d

3
m

B
E

E
m

eo
i

0
!

o
y

h
a

g
-

.
foped

"
eo

Oo
"

ot
Su

et
"
e
e

ried
=

ry
Bi

@¢
al

pr
f

™

p
e

Led
peed

2
9

o
t

p
o

Fore
g
o

a
)

od
ou

pot.
pos’

~
4

So
r
e

Po.
po

Ye)
Pin

dod
a

vowed
or

p
o

h
i

ted
3

1
3

se]
ed

out

p
o
m

p
r
e

Q
o

W
W

ed
O
o

3
d

di
>

i
y

o
l

e
p
e
d

w
e

om
Und

th
Wi

:
¢

0
ed

hy
ov

PS
@

E
a

=
=

]

1
3

d
d

bod
h

ay
“

3]
e
d

our!
4

L
J

’
n

ct
0

3
)

4
3

[RF
od

1
,
S
N

GEER
5

w
w

out
on

™
)

C
t

4
3

LR,

|
¥

e
t

5]
pur

o
H

o
t

(41
43}

0
La.

™
Py

oor |
p
e

L
o
t

3
3

w
a
d

I.
ri

o
f

3
!

o
p
e
d

o
p
e
]

og
a
)

J
fhe

hl
™
t

N
vo

uons

3
3

fod
>

o
d

1
3

i
]

Lin
ow

4
3

Ww
Ww

i
oO

i
=

{
a

:
r
d

pa
§

P
t

V
i

vr
p

o
t

por J
pons

Iriel
g
o
d

v
y

£
4

o
p
]

(4
L
a
e
|

S
d

[
syed

w
d

o
d

e
r

o
d

pia:
t
p
l

S
d

e
o

T
r

o
o

o
t

4
2
8

o
d

orl
t

5
0

(&}
U
d

F
e

U
d

dud
<
Q

had
-

beef

Q No, I asked for the third grade and the fourth

grade?

A Well, in the third grade we had 2,997 white

students, and 6,471 Negro students; in the fourth grade,

3,129 white students, and 6,032 Negro students.

Q Are you also in charge of assigning pupils under

the dual zone system in the upper grades?

A I hesitate in answering that question because ac~

tually the Superintendent signs all of the assignment sheets

that go out to the schools, and I have certain duties to

perform, and so does Dr. Fitzpatrick's office down in the

Census Department,

Q But you had some duties?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q So you have some familiarity there, and at the

third and fourth grade levels, aside from these two Bundreds

odd students, how were the other students in those grades

assigned?

A We follow the procedure that has been used in

years past when we were not operating under Court orders,

and these students, at the end of each year, who expected

to return to the same school, were listed on the sheet,

several copies of which were made and sent into us, and

from these sheets of expected students they were assigned to

the school for the next vear.

a
d

i
,

Is there any actual notice to all these pupils?

No cards were sent in cases of that sort in the

So that if the pupil has just gotten promoted

expecting to stay im the same school, there is no

tual commumication, is there?
J

e
r

p
o
t

p
t

“

Q
e ph Li

o
O

3
4

=
i

r
h

e he is being promoted

3ixth grade to junior highschool and the upper

No. He is always automatically assigned to the

ol in his district.

20m
How are they notified of that?

The students are notified.

5 |
a

students are told that this will be the

That is correct, they know that when they make

tion for the following year, their elective studies

en on the basis of the -
m

e
y
® And those are assigned

Is that correct’

Attendance area maps.

And those were, in the case of the past year =--

1 in the case of this past year would be Exhibit

2 b ;

din th

map which says "white junior high districts,” and another

map which says "white senior high districts," and another

‘Negro senior high districts,™ and is that

A That is correct.

Q And for elementary pupils in grades 3 through 6,

you had for kind B ergarten the past year, you had a white map

and a Negro map?

A dual zone map, two maps. That is correct.

Q Is the same procedure which you deseribed a moment

ago followed, junior and goes to senior?

A Yes.

, He is notified at the school where to go the

5 3 following year?

A Transcripts are sent to the school in his district.

Q The records are forwarded?

Q And he is actually told that the next year he ==

» That is correct, he knows he is expected to go to

that school, ask for a permit ~- well, unless he ask

4 for a permit, he would go to that district school, that is

Q And this is done by your school staff at each

school, sometime in the spring, whe he

election, or indicates his elective course for the next

year?

A Mechanically, Mr. Nabrit, when we send a list of

the students that they expect back, they also send a list

of the students to which junior high or senior high they are

going, so Dr, Fitzpatrick's office can prepare the sheets

for the Superintendent's signature so that they will be of-

ficially assigned to the school. One exception perhaps I

should point out, so that there will be no confusion, always

in the past, before we went to the single zone, any child

beginning school for the first time had to fill out these

application blanks, and have the parents come with him to

sign the blank, and be forwarded and assigned to or on an

individual basis. But I have been speaking of children

already established in the schools up until this point.

Q And the procedure for children already established

in the school is the same during this past year as it has

been?

A That is right.

Q Now, for the single zone grades, that is. last A 2 £0 oF ? J

year, grades one and two, do I understand that pupils were

not assigned to the school they attended, that is indicated

on that single zone map, unless they came to that school and

asked to be placed there?

A They were not assigned to any school unless they |

completely re-registered.

Q In other words, pupils had to come and register,

r thev were not assiened? Is that rat ? Or they were not assigned! Is that correct!

A lt was the first time they ever had an opportunit

to register under a single zone, so everyone re-registered.

Q Now, coming to the registration which you conducte

n 1964, the first week of June, wasn't it?

A The first week of June, that is correct.

Q On that day you had registration for kindergarten

rye Eo 0 Flandres len? Re ole T? anc tne rirstc Saale: BRL gaL :

vl. £
That is correct,

Q Did you follow the procedure for these pupils,

substantially the same as you followed the previous year?

A We followed the same procedure as far as the

parents vegistering the childre en, that is correct.

Q Were the zone maps printed in the papers?

A I can't remember, to be plain honest about it.

A Notice was prepared, and the work was done in my

-~ ene $e za] $F on e340 r, OL vn 2 var) 3 gq 2 office, s0 I believe the Superintendent signed it, and it

wes or tagherd Pra in ox reds np a. Eom LLL nda 2 . Bound 21.3 was sent to the schools in sufficient quantities that childr

o
o

in the schools might take the notices to their parents. The

was notice in the newspapers, but I don't know whether a map

Q Now, on your direct testimony you indicated that

[
3

t
i
d

ho 20
4
d

]

you were

(
P
d

‘
3

ot
A

an
O

Cea
a

Ql)
tye

Hed
=

§
©

3
0

2d
1
3

sped
i

4
b
e
d

ed
h-

1
i
s

gal
"

;
oped

fos
ud

wl
4
d

vi
{

o
d

i}
.

34)
Q

od
@O

vi
M

ol
)

el
poe

2
©

ok
p
l

apd
a

ped
i

Fl
"
a

R
o

ft
e
d

dod
spd

a
HM

we
@

a
.

o
f

|
bi

ro
L
Y

o
r

fs
rt

Og
5

uo
w

poe
>

»
Q

apd
spe

dod
¥1

o
f

I
@

e
d

33
o

wt
3d

dd
£
5

a
3

m
w

¢
e
t

R
a

-
e

not

™
off

: if

V
™

3 FE |

g |

;

oe
ha

des

§ i

b % |
= 3

$ -

| aod |

[§ 4

"
i 5

£ =.

ls in June, 1964, registered, have now

a
.

Pa
a

|
:

ou
t
s

we
h
o

U
R

went
4
d

4
g
o
d

w
e

Te
|

Vel
pod

”

od
»

p
o

£
3

dad
a

s
p
d

R
+

o
d

h
e

o
O

sd
4

i
hol

.
:

h
e

i
F

f
o

£
3

a
]

o
O

e
e

45)
Q
O

p
~

p
L

#
o
e

E
h

w
l
|

m
h

#
3

.
P
y

”
u
k

p
o
d

a
W
w

o
u

W
t

L®
|

|
£#

L
i

wy
of

Sond
o

a
a
d

be
a

»
ft

es
5

ope]
| #

2)
3

o
e

1
3

he 17%
5

|
#

n
y

A
M4

NN
OO

6
¢

X
©

O
f

.
$

a
1

P
N

£
3

43
a

r
e
d

8
3

;
.

bd
ded

hat
L

W
w

bo
a

W
W

pot
.

[&
W
s

hd
6
h

{
(
|

3
r
h

+
3

pe
3

p
$

P
e

r
l

0
3

dud
3,

SS
0

A
d

H
y

B
e

Jud
&

ol
ot

§
5
8

3
pot

¢
oy

a
d

y
3

4
4

L*
J
u

£
2

$4
is

ta
or

tL
ood

ow
{

4
3

Fo
o
d

#
3

ny
F
a

3
S
a
d

[43]
3
d

35)
Q
O

4
)

W
L
d

| #
9

ks 2 |
P
d
a

a
e

Lo
|

pi
|

*
3

poi
&

ob
3

y
d

2
oid

=~
d

M
n
f

#
a
]

o
e

£
4

E
t

L
5

HM
50

eo
Q

orl
a

ped
O

«
4

HM
41]

¥
r
o

e
n

%
_

p
o
n
d

att
$2

$
y
a

a
e

{
®)

oO
#

d
d

o
e

L
f

d
d

W
o

#
opel

£5
orf

OU
QO

Ls T
E

Ld
2

gv
O

&
¥

5
e
d

or
"

Py
‘

on
y

a
8

#
3

poet
#

i
p

}
p
h

T
e

of
sod

J
o
n

F
a

4
4

Poy
“

‘
vd

e.
Ls S

o
o

c
gq

«-
3

EE
o

p
e
d

i
.

w
d

OJ
L

3
t

wd
[oe]

¥
3

£
3

L
y

By,
F
d

of]
y

aie}
he

g
d

es
"ri

rd
£3

A
d

o
u
d

p
o

g
o
d

S
a
?

v
a

E
A
]

w
d

o
d
?

«
i

po
Fons

3
3

{ §
a
8

504
o
S

#
1

W
f

| He
"od

p
o
d

i
3%

Pa
a

3
3

”

:
Sad

N
S

HE
Gg

h
d

*
Poin

wel
0

4 3]
d
e
d

L
W

ooh
v
3

b
i
d

a
¥

y
wt

-
~

w
i

1
wie?

w
u

~
~

Se
§

H
D

N
g

u
d

{
be a

|
Q
he

y
T

“
oy

]

a.
ow)

have never had pre-registration for first graders until the

Dr, Fitzpatrick's departments, but it has never been done by

did this year and the last prior year?

A No, I am afraid you misunderstood me there. We

Court orders of 1963, that is, not in my =-- but I have always

said that the first time a child entered in a school, that

the parents, in 1950, for instance, would go to the school

to register the child. If the child in 1950 was registered

in kindergarten, the parent did not have to go back the

following year to re-register him in the first grade.

Q I think I understand.

But whatever grade the child was in when he

entered the school system ~-

A When he first began, that is correct.

Q -= when he first began, the child came to the

£ school, or a parent did, filled out a form and was processed,

just the way they were?

A Any child living in the school district did follow

Q S50 that this matter of proofreading and screening

all of these applications, is something that is done annually?

Yes, and no. It is always done through one of

the staff before the Court ordered us to do it.

Q In other words, the higher echelons of the staff

did this this time, and they are the regular ones that do it. |

3
.

a
"
|

is that it

A The higher echelons of the staff have actually a

done the proofreading for the simple reason that we didn't

want to take any chances on mistakes.

oth, the lower echelon and p
d

But in prior years,

the higher --

A They also proofread it, and that was why, besides

we finished it, it went to his department

ITI. LE Tp Meo, DUNN vy rp hoo on. - rh —_ on ~ fo Ts : CS of fo Pp ’ and went through the normal procedure then. So it really

Isard 4 - - po | 1 had been proofread twice.

Q Well, to get my answer, in prior years, prior to

desegregation this same procedure was gone through, but it

7 ©

45
) ets and Finances, that

Ag Gl LAC COU LGENT LOL

b 4 to confirm this, that in white elementa ry SCO ls sy FEegu las

4 . fo ve examen 12% off the t anane that had RG AT. HD
classes, there were Y.44 0 Che classes Chat nada J50 Or more

That 1s correct.

r
y

rat ;
$

Lg
p
t

h
w
i

Sud
iF

od
o
d

s
x
i

u“
@

J
p-—-

» dud
Wis

p
o
n
d

.
o
d

y
J

a
g

fo
M
o
.

4
]

J
d

4
~

4
d

o
l

a
d

or
an |

"™
£
4

;
ut

EE
wid

atin]
4
3

C
3

o
m

|
244

hod
3
7

o
n

4
P
r
]

(oe
r
d

ae
w

p
o
l

63]
a

At
2
%

“

T
a
b
4
0

hat page

ny,
o
d

i
o

Ne?
i
y

t
t

.
e
o

ey
r
y

sin
LR

a
s

=
i

pert
t
a

o
r

+
3

v
e

f
o

N
e

o
d

od
a

&
b

5
™

nd
=
b
d

L
A
F

'
a

*
y
,

fob
:

£47 J
4

e
e

F
a

A
o
l

b
e

4
#
1

“~~
#0)

2
%

3-3
pAb

Joy
N
S

J
n |

yom
S
W

Tt
4

oid
3

pol
r
d

oy
.

w
r

C
e
e

~
a
L
}

b
e
§

[
wef

w
i

}

[on]
C
i

od
t

4
o
g

p
e

‘
A

h
-

waft
wet
£
3

W
W

bod

u
i

o
i
d

o
e

.
y

d
#

o
u

a
l
k

A
g

»
-

P
e
3

W
A
Y

3
oe)

#
3

on)
3

|
a
e

peel

}
i

Lak.
tw 2 og

id @ art
. %

5 1

S
A
Y

{ “

p
a

m
y

A p
Squid

»
p

Kl
dan

~
~

% 4 £33] ESTES

L
d

Ce 4 5

itself would not mean tha

street in the

I think Project that the child is Ap)

Well, is that the project that is served by Moton?

that project?

It serves part of the project.

And Dunn serves that

Dunn serves part, serves part,

possibly Lockett. I would have to go into my

Now, referring t zone map

[7
9]

large blue

#, £
8

w
e

zone map.

correct.

that cor-

correct.

Q And one of these maps says "Negro Junior High

and Departmental Districts, 1963-'64," is that correct?

A That is correct.

an all-Negro Junior Highschool shown on this map, and is

that correct?

A All right,

Q Isn't it true that the area indicated on that

map contains white pupils who are assigned --

MR. ROSENBERG: Mr, Dean =~-

MR, NABRIT: You may object.

MR. ROSENBERG: I want the witness not to answer

until I have had a chance to speak.

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q Again, that area of the Woodson School and each

of the schools on the map is served by a white school which

is indicated on another map marked "White Junior High Dis-

tricts"?

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I object

to the question on the ground that counsel apparently now is

going completely beyond the pleadings and beyond the scope

of the direct examination.

Now, if he is planning on going into the junior

and senior highschool situation in the city, this is not

Q Now, as an example, taking the area of the Woodson,

included in the plan filed by the Board, and which is before |

the Court, and it was not the subject of anything contained

in their objections last year or this year, and I object to

bringing it up at this time.

MR, NABRIT: I disagree with that, your Honor.

THE COURT: What is the purpose of the examination?

MR, NABRIT: I want to make it perfectly clear

that in 1963, when we had a hearing in this Court we objected

to the grade a year plan, and we objected to the School

Board, that the School Board did not justify the grade a year

plan, and did not show that the delay was required in deseg-

regating all the grades up to and including the 12th grade.

Now, the Court did not rule on that, and the Court

ruled that it would postpone for the future consideration of

what the grades would be to be desegregated.

We again objected, and we filed our pleadings this

year asking that the Court now give us a ruling that was

postponed before because in the last case the Court used in

its opinion the phrase that we didn't have experience under

the single zone plan. So we now have before the Court --

THE COURT: Don't answer the question before the

Court rules, I want to find my last opinion, my last judg-

ment.

MR, NABRIT: I direct your Honor to the opinion

that your Honor entered on May 17, I believe it was 1963,

on the second page of your Honor's opinion you set out a list

of eleven objections, and the first one indicates that the

plaintiffs objected that the eleven year delay cannot be

supported, the eleven year delay in complete desegregation

could not be supported as an administrative necessity.

Then, further on in the opinion your Honor ruled

on that objection.

Then, at the bottom of page 5 of your opinion, the

Court wrote as follows --

THE COURT: I want the original opinion on that.

MR, NABRIT: At the bottom of page 5 of your Honor's

opinion, your Honor ruled that, and I quote, from the opinion:

"The Board's plans to adopt the single zone system in the

first and second grades is not based on true experience.

Until the single zone system is put into effect, it will be

impossible to determine its precise effect. Hence it is

premature to make definitive decisions on the long-range plan.

That decision will be pretermitted until the results of the

single-zone system can be evaluated in the light of at least

some actual experience. It is, of course, to be understood

that the Board will not be heard to say that it does not have

time to plan for the school year 1964 as it has done in the

past.

"The Board is fully aware of the orders of this

Court and the Fifth Circuit. The only decision made here is

that the final acceptance and approval of the long-range plan |

is not yet feasible. Desegregation will proceed in 1964,

but at what pace it cannot yet be said.

"Plaintiffs are in no way prejudiced since then

can, as in the past, seek further relief.

You have said here that the Board is fully aware

of the orders of this Court and of the Fifth Circuit, and

continuing:

"It is, of course, to be understood that the

Board will not be heard to say that it does not have time

to plan for the school year 1964 as it has done in the

past, The Board is fully aware of the orders of this

Court and the Fifth Circuit. The only decision made

here is that the final acceptance and approval of the

long-range plan is not yet feasible. Desegregation will

proceed in 1964, but at what pace it cannot yet be said.

"Plaintiffs are in no way prejudiced since they

can, as in the past, seek further relief.

"The Board will not be released from its

duties since it will be required to report to this Court

as soon as pertinent facts are available, at which time

further orders will issue.

So the posture of the case is that we are back

in Court for the ruling that was promised in the opinion,

that portion of the opinion that I just read, the ruling on

whether the Court is going to approve a long-range plan or

not. And that is very plainly put before the Court in our

pleadings as well as by the Court in its decision, where your

Honor postponed the decision.

I don't know how much more your Honor wants me to

elaborate, but there are numerous other things in the record

which I could point to that would confirm what I have just

said. Your Honor did not approve the grade a year plan in

that your Honor promised that another hearing this year on

a grade a year plan would be --

THE COURT: This Court went to no end of trouble

to meet head-on, as far as was practically possible, every

single, solitary objection which the plaintiffs made. And

there were numerous objections. And the consideration of

all this was time-consuming, as it should have been, because

this is a very important matter,

Your first complaint was that the eleven year de-

lay in complete desegregation could not be supported as an

administrative necessity.

Your second objection was that there is no provisioj

for conversion to a single zone system for the first five

grades in 1964 as provided by the orders of the Fifth Circuit

Court of Appeals.

Then, that there is no provision for lateral

transfer of children in grades above the first and second

grades out of dual school districts.

Then, that there is no protection against diserim-

ination by routinely assigning children in the first and

second grades to their new attendance zone. And, that there

is no provision for relief of overcrowded Negro schools.

And that there is no provision for desegregation

of the kindergarten.

And that there is no provision for non-racial

admission to schools for exceptional children.

And that there is no provision for non-racial

admission to vocational schools, summer schools, and night

school,

And that there is no provision for non-racial

assignment of teachers, and that there is no provision for

building new schools without regard to race.

And, lastly, that school districts may be changed

by the Board without safeguards against discrimination.

Now, every question was raised that very competent

counsel could present to the Court in order that the full

issues would be before the Court, or within the Court's

consideration.

Now, the Court held at that time that the evidence

indicated that most of the, let us say, forecasts, attendance

forecasts, were, and I used the word at that time "guessti-~

mates’ as to what would take place. And the witnesses for

the Board at that time made it clear that the school practice

is to set up attendance districts based on prior facts which

are projected forward. After registration the zones are

altered to adjust the facts adduced at registration. This

means that certain zones will be shaped differently than

those presently shown on the single-zone maps. To this pro-

cedure the plaintiffs cannot reasonably object and the Court

approves this much of the plan as a rational method of

school administration.

So that, to that extent, the overall plan was ap-

proved.

"However, plaintiffs object that such a procedure

without more is a latent tool of discrimination. Of course,

the Board cannot expect final approval of what it terms an

estimate at best. The presumption is that the Board will

apply the attendance districts without regard to race. If,

after registration and the alteration of the maps, it appears

that the Board has 'gerrymandered' the attendance districts

sO as to continue segregated schooling, the time would be

ripe for the Court to correct the situation. Courts are

quite capable of dealing with discrimination by gerrymandering.

Similarly, administration of a School Board plan which does

not achieve desegregation, but only leaves the pattern as

before, is also within the competence of this Court to correct.

But the facts do not yet indicate any such discrimination and

the evidence presently before the Court is insufficient.

What facts there are indicate that the Board will treat all

students evenhandedly.

"After extensive testimony and intensive interroga-

tion by the Court it is established that every child in the

first and second grade will be routinely assigned to the

school in his attendance district on the single-zone map

unless he actively, of his own volition, chooses another

school. This method for attending school outside one's

school district will be by transfer. Hence, having confected

zone lines on non-racial considerations, the Board will assign

all children to the school in his or her attendance zone

and permit a child to leave an attendance zone only through

transfers.

"The Board also indicates that it has not determine

the criteria for transfer. It is presumed that whatever they

are, they will be non-racial. Some well-established guide-

lines can be mentioned. Transfer provisions may be applied

to white and Negro evenhandedly. The fact that one race is

in the minority is not a ground for transfer since it is

based on race.”

This Court, in effect, adopted the projected School

Board stepladder plan, but withheld -- provided the district,

the one continuous district was laid out and developed without

racial discrimination. And the Court held that the only way

that it could be told whether or not discrimination did

exist, whether or not there was gerrymandering of the dis-

tricts in order to fit into population patterns, and all of

that was called to the attention of the Court, and the Court,

in effect, certainly did approve the plan that was at that

time tendered, and obtained jurisdiction for the purpose of

directing it and for the purpose of ordering it, and for the

purpose of changing it where those who attacked it would

come forth with sound, reasonable grounds in which to base

discrimination.

Now, the Court is familiar with the recent au-

thorities on this matter, and it would be assumed that you

are not content with the rapidity in which the integration

processes are taking place in this state, and in this city,

and you desire now to hasten the integration of the New Or-

leans school system, although more has been accomplished

under the New Orleans school system than in any other metro-

politan school system in the South, as far as integration is

concerned. Yet, you come to this Court with not one single

sound objection to show that there has been gerrymandering.

And that is what this Court was interested in, and not ex-

panding this plan continuously and changing or altering it

every time we have a court meeting.

For example, I have again and again pointed out

here that at some point this matter has got to come to an end.

Are we, every month or two, going to come back here in court

claiming that there is segregation? There are areas all

over this nation where they are not going forward with the

integration processes, and I find that the School Board here

is attempting to go forward within the realm of reason, and

within the province of administrative costs.

The Court, therefore, if you are attempting to

enlarge this plan by expanding it by total grades, adding to

the grades that you have already gotten, the Court is going

to decline to permit you to introduce evidence on that point.

But the Court would be glad to entertain and will conscien-

tiously consider any evidence that you may show that there

has been gerrymandering, or that there has been unfair prac-

tices. This Court is bound by the provisions of the judgment

80 to do, and this Court will certainly give the claimants

in this case, the proponents in this case, full and complete

consideration,

I, therefore, maintain the objection in so far as

it may apply to the extension of the school system to a

level of ==

MR, NABRIT: May I make an inquiry?

THE COURT: Certainly.

MR, NABRIT: My inquiry is this: I would like to

state for the record that I am surprised, and indeed I am

Lsurprised, and indeed astonished that the Court has indicated

that it has already approved the plan requiring desegregation,

or providing for desegregation over a twelve year period.

THE COURT: No, sir, I said I approved that part

of the plan about which the Board has information, but that

no plan could be approved in its entirety until experience

gives the Board the opportunity of knowing on a year by year

basis just exactly how these zones should be developed.

And, these zones, being the first time in the history of the

South where there has been tendered by a School Board the

clean-cut right simply to attend a white school nearest their

home, and the complete right to register in that white school.

And then, when the right to register in that

white school was granted by this Court, the projection was

that it would mean movement of approximately 1,000 Negroes,

or that it would mean movement of perhaps 1,000 whites from

one area of adjustment into another.

As it turned out, the people whom you were repre-

senting in this matter, obviously and manifestly didn't want

to make the change that you were seeking here to make for

them, and, as a result, only a nominal few showed up to

But then the Board went further than this, and

if there is anything here that is factually wrong, I am

perfectly willing to stand corrected, because these are facts

and they date back some time, but this Court, even when the

25
another question.

first and second grades were desegregated by this Court,

the School Board did not limit the applicants for change to

an all-white school to those who applied at a certain speci-

fied period, but allowed them to apply for the change at a

certain specified time; and then, if they didn't do it, gave

them another chance all over again to do it, and when the

schools opened in September. So that convinces the Court

that there is an element of fairness here which I don't be-

lieve that your claimants have given proper and appropriate

thought to.

S50 if the reasons I have given surprise you, it

surprises me even more, for this Court to learn that an

integration proceeding that is progressing as smoothly as

this is progressing, that we could be continuously harassed

to expand it.

MR, NABRIT: Your Honor, I am representing liti-

gants in court, and I have never yet, and I don't intend to

harass the Court or opposing litigants.

But I do have a simple inquiry that I would like

to address to the Court, and I think I need to know this in

order to be sure that I don't violate =--

THE COURT: Well, I don't know whether I will

answer that or not, and I will just simply give you the chance

to propound it, and whether I answer your inquiry or not is

MR, NABRIT: Quite naturally, sir, and my question

is, has the Court ruled that the plan will proceed .n a

twelve or eleven year basis, at a grade a year? And, if so,

was the ruling just now, or was your Honor explaining that

the ruling was a year ago? That is all that I wanted to

know.

THE COURT: Mr. Nabrit, the Supreme Court of the

United States has ordered this Court in two well-defined

decisions of Brown, in the civil rights cases, and in dozens

of cases, and this Court is under a mandate to carry out the

will of the United States Supreme Court and the will of the

Fifth Circuit Court.

But this Court is only required to enforce with

reasonable practicality, and consideration for the subject

matter, which is administered here by the School Board. And

if you were sitting there as president of the School Board

and ten thousand persons presented themselves to you to be

integrated into the fifth, sixth and seventh grades in a

period of say two weeks, I could well imagine that you would

have to -- well, frankly, I think you would have to give it

up as a bad job. I don't think that you could do it admin-

istratively. I don't think that you could do it any faster

than you have been doing it.

And, as I have tried to explain to you, I even

went back and got those who went under the first Wright

decision in 1960, and ordered you to admit them in school

today. So actually we have grade one and grade two, and

grade three, and we have students in grades four and five,

is that correct?

MR, NABRIT: Well, we have five in September.

THE COURT: So, in effect, almost five grades

have been integrated by this Court. Now, if you can show

me another city where such progress has been made, I would

appreciate it,

the School Board asked me to inquire of Miss Motley, counsel

in the Atlanta case, what the situation was, and that was a

request which your Honor seemed to approve of.

I called her last night in New York, and learned

from her that that plan in the Atlanta school case, which

was only approved by Judge Hooper a short while ago, and

which Mr, Rosenberg told us last night involved five grades,

the eighth through the twelfth, and those are the Atlanta

Highschool grades, eight through twelve, and at the eighth

grade level, there are no zones and at the eighth grade leve

all pupils are given a preference form which they can fill

and in ninth through twelfth they are allowed transfers to

gchools.

MR, NABRIT: At yesterday's conference counsel for

out, if they would like to attend the school they would attend

And Mrs. Motley advises me at the hearing the |

evidence was that approximately 850 Negro students have been

accepted in white schools, and perhaps there would be more

before school opens.

I thought that I should make that report to your

Honor in view of some of the things you have said.

THE COURT: There was one other thing too, im my

recapitulation of a moment ago, I did not mention the fact

that I now have under advisement the matter of the integration

of the kindergarten. And the Court, as you know, acted upon

that last year in advising the Board to get ready for the

integration of the kindergarten, and gave them an entire

year in which to work out the detailed plans that it would

necessarily entail.

I think everybody agreed, and in reason and fair-

ness, that some difficulties would be encountered in making

these transfers. And the Court wants to hear, before we

leave here today, argument, or evidence, if any there be,

as to the finality of that judgment. This Court has never

officially ordered the integration of kindergarten, but I

mention this to you because I am going to rule on it before

the day is out.

MR, NABRIT: Well, your Homor, I am not sure where

1 stand; am I not allowed to ask questions about the exhibits

already in the record, about the junior highschools and the

highschools? What is the ruling? TI accede t : v
u

L an i Eo

100

want to be clear if that is the ruling.

THE COURT: Any exhibits in the record, anything

that relates to the unfairness of the present program, any-

thing that indicates that gerrymandering is taking place,

matters and things that are involved in an attack upon the

School Board and the way in which it is administering these

affairs, you may go into. And then I think too, you bear

some burden of showing, before the afternoon is over, that

these people can do this job that you are seeking to have

them do.

You see, here is my problem, and I will try to go

along here as far as I can, and I want to go as far as

possibly can be done within the realm of reason. And you

realize that beyond a certain point this Court does not pro-

pose to be pushed, But I shall see that your rights, and

everyone else's rights are properly protected in this Court.

So if you can show me that any rights have been

invaded by the method which has been used in the handling

and the setting up of these districts, I will be the first

to act upon it and order that these districts be rearranged

in order to meet your requirements -- if you can show it to

the Court.

But you come here with no plan of your own, and

you come here to destroy the plan that has been submitted, and

I just don't believe that that is the fair way to present

101

the matter.

That is all I have to say, and you may proceed

with the examination of this witness on any question that

you wish to examine him on. And I know that we have met

here before, and you have examined these same witnesses be-

fore, and we were here several days, and time and again I

told you that the record was getting voluminous, and that we

were rehashing the same things over and over again, but

you were insistent in producing everything in the books,

and I let you do it. And this Court went wide and far at

times, but now you want to come back into this Court and

do the same things all over again.

Now, that is the proposition. Go right ahead

| with your examination, and I will give you a wide field on

anything you may want to show which may go to demonstrate

that this plan is being administered by the Board in a way

that operates to the prejudice of the people whom you re-

present in this class action. The Court would like to know

| all this, and will act upon it.

MR, NABRIT: Well, I will certainly hope to do

that, and I do not feel that I am being unfair to the Court

or to the parties, because this lawsuit has been going on

for fourteen years, and I object, since we still have nine

grades to desegregate, and we do make that objection, and

insist upon it.

102

po
d

fo
rd

e
n
|

COURT: Proceed.

RF AAD BRIT

3 Q Now, Mr, Dean, isn't it true that the definition

school zones P
m

a
g

i
s

d
e

44
)

J
o
o

| 8

fe]

“
4

4p
]

o
p

h
o

w
e

w
i

r
e

po
oh

o
n

f
T

F
e

A
n
d
1

fo
d

o
N

.
3 %,

pa
d

P
o
d
e

5
6
8

covering the entire city and Negro school zones covering

vy
J TS aa . oS Pre ih d= 1 ‘ "WT wy ro on ox re the entire city, so that some of them overlap? Isn't that

A There is some overlap, that is correct.

Q So every part of the city is covered by the

white zones, let's put it, as far as dual-zones?

Q And the same thing is true for Negroes?

A That is correct, Negro zon That is correct

Q And the entire system is on a dual system except

grades 1, and 2 and 3 under the Board's proposal for September

0
Pb A

104 {
1
19

[3
]

r
i

™

€3
[

ET (0 213 Tp oni ’ panel Pon om ane ou a E% 2 Tm i

MR, NABRIT: Your witness, Mr. Rosenberg.

ry rey FARE TIAT AY
RED 1IRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Dean, on cross examination, counsel asked you

the procedures that were followed this year, and the work

that was done in connection with registration was the same

103

104

o
o

jo 3
M
3
3

S
a

$1
pov

po’

I
Y

a
p
d

o
s

3
)

L
a
d

wel
¢

I
d

a
o
d
§

ogreg
[
*

R
u
s
t
J

m
o

y
e

e
g

A A great deal more work, ves.

Q Mr. Dean, are there any administrative reasons

or problems involved in including kindergarten in a single-

A Yes, and it will take me a minute or two to ex-

plain them,

In the first place, pre-registration is not a com-

plete registration. We never get ~~ based on last year and

this year, it is quite obvious that we lack a good deal,

a good number of people, getting them all in to register.

Therefore, our figures that we are operating on in September

in our schools next fall, are not as accurate as we need to

have them. This concerns, therefore, the amount of space

that we should acquire for first and second grades, and per-

haps, if required to add them, kindergarten rooms; the number

of teachers that have to be assigned, and the number of

teachers involved, in turn, a certifi A cation problem. An i
F
Y

this is something that we have to work out with the State

partment in Baton Rouge, because teachers are certified

"lower elementary, upper elementary, secondary, and/or

kindergarten,” and with lower elementary some have and some

do not have the certifi

. 50 we have no way of estimating now, which multi-

plies our problem, the numbers of second and third grade

children who decided not to go to their zone schools last AF

year, and asked and received permits, and now may wish to

back to their zone. This we will not know until after

school starts.

Last year we began what we are working on, and

usual, did not get from the state the numbers of teachers

that we asked for, or, rather, we did not get support for

the teachers that we needed, and we were short of teachers

3 d Phillips Junior Highschool open in mid-term, as

with, And, we wouldn't have been able to hire them.

So, when we make mistakes on these guesstimate ©

by putting too many teachers in a school, we will penalize

some other school that needs teachers later on.

schools, we may not have the money to hire the teachers

necessary. So we have problems with the first grade, the

at best, estimate our staff needs.

We asked, at least, through my division we aske

194, I believe it was, additional teachers next year. Dr.

what has been referred to as guesstimates, and we again, as

scheduled, we wouldn't have had enough teachers to staff it

Then, if we put too few and we fill up the other

second grade, and the third grade, and in which we can only,

d C

Rosenberg, added enough to run anywhere between 205 and 212,

special classes, and the state is only allowing us 145. So

we are desperately pushed to make our staffing do. So that

106

work on, is going to hurt children at some level or another.

Now, we have another big problem trying to get

our schools administratively staffed, the proper space, the

right type of furniture ready, in September; so if we only

go an additional grade the first, second and third grades

next year, adding the kindergarten will, therefore, magnify

somewhat more the problem of making our staff, limited by

our budget, cover the school system adequately. It is a

little worse because kindergarten teachers are somewhat

specialized teachers. And if we hire too many kindergarten

teachers and we will have =~ and everyone takes advantage

of the single-zone, that is, if the Negro children were to

take advantage of the opportunity to go to single~zone, and

we can't tell until September what will happen, we may have

to hire additional kindergarten teachers to put in some of

the formerly all-white schools.

If we hire them and they do not come in, we may

not be able to use them anywhere else because of thelr being

kindergarten teachers.

But if we don't hire them and they come in, we

may not be able to hire them because they are scarce. We

can only hire them in advance. So the problem of adding

kindergarten will add considerable administrative worries

to an already serious problem, which, going back so often,

does happen on the amount of money-th henbae LILES ah TR waked

That, in short gist, is some of the administrative

problems that are involved.

Q I assume, if this Court does order the Board to

include kindergarten and grades 1, 2 and 3 in the single-zone

system in September, 1964, and together with your lateral

transfers in 4 and 5, and your desegregation at Franklin in

10 and 11, that there would be considerably more administra-

tive problems superimposed upon all of that, if the Court

were to order that say the fourth grade also would go into

A
single-zone this year? Am I correct in that?

A You certainly are correct, sir, it would make it

almost insurmountable.

Q Now, Mr. Dean, on cross examination Mr, Nabrit

asked you if it were not a fact that in 1964 under the Board's

plan that all Negro children in the city and in grades 4 and

5 would go to Negro schools in 1964, and you answered yes.

I would like you to think about that answer, and

I ask you specifically if it is not true that in September,

1964, those children who are presently attending grade 4,

Negro children attending grade 4, in white, in formerly all-

white schools, will not those children be attending formerly

all-white schools in the fifth grade in September, 19647

A This is absolutely true, and they have already

been so assigned, The Negro children who were in the third

108

o
n

oan

"
|

i
J

§/
3

F
a

i
ad

i
w
s

y
e
d

y
A

a
p
n
i

"
4

W
i

gro]
p
s

o
d

od 4 yy 1% wi
h
y

“d
Sinad
a
3

wont

% .

g n
d

—

fo he
3 Jk

A It complicated the whole picture.

Q Complicated the whole picture?

A Right.

Q Now, looking at the other things you mentioned,

aside from that, isn't it true that your other kindergarten

problems that you have, separately with the Negro and white

schools to the same extent that you would have them if you

had single zones in kindergarten? Isn't that true about

every other problem that you mention?

A I don't follow the question.

Q Well, let's take them one by one.

You mentioned that one problem is caused by the

fact that the kindergarten pre-registration, present registra-

tion, is not accurate and everybody doesn't show up? Right?

A I didn't say specifically kindergarten, kinder=-

garten or first grade, neither one is completely accurate.

Q Well, you talked about kindergarten, then that

is going to be true whether you have integrated kindergarten

or not, you are not going to know exactly how many students

because some of them do not show up until September? Right?

A Right, it would not be completely accurate if it

were to continue segregated, this is true. I think it is

even more inaccurate, though, in a single zone, and I base

that on this fact that during the past ~-- well, about 80%

of the white children have gone to kindergarten, or, let's

112

put it this way, by the time they reach first grade about

120% of the amount in kindergarten reach the first grade =-

Q I don't follow that.

A Well, let's put it that about 20% more children

than the first grade in the white division than there are in

the kindergarten.

Have I made that clear? Where it is almost 250%

of the Negro children, more Negro children in the first

grade than there have been in kindergarten, and all this

cannot by any means be accounted for by waiting lists -- at

least 2007 more than we have in kindergarten -- so in the

zones that were formerly all-white, this is going to make a

difference, so this would mean many more Negroes maybe will

show up in September than didn't. It is just one of these

things that there is no way of being sure of.

Q Well, if I understand it, what you have told me

is that you have a smaller percentage of the Negro students

that go to kindergarten than white students?

A Right.

Q Now, and you know what that percentage is, roughly?

A Roughly, yes.

Q So that if you have segregated kindergarten in

September, as you deal with that separately --

A Well, we would assume that the figure would stay

approximately what they have been for ten years.

113

Q ~= is it your guess that the number of, the total

number of children attending Negro -- well, Negro children

attending kindergarten may change?

A It is quite possible. We have no way of knowing.

This is something that would be completely new and different.

There is just no way of knowing.

Q Even if they stayed segregated, you don't know

whether it is going to change?

A It could change. We have a history, that is,

we have figures for about ten years.

Q To use your words, you have no way of knowing --

MR. ROSENBERG: May the witness complete his

answer? I don't think he finished.

THE WITNESS: Well, you have the figures going

back ten years, and it is a little safer to guess on that

than something that is just beginning. It would only be an

educated guess, at best.

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q Now, the other administrative problems that you

mention, such as hiring a number of teachers, and having the

right number of classrooms, the certification, all of those

administrative problems relate to not knowing how many people yA

are going to have, don't they?

A Well, added to the fact that we don't have an

| adequate amount of money to hire teachers with, so that we

114

cannot protect ourselves by being sure that we have perhaps

a little more than enough teachers.

Q So your problem, or possibly I should say two of

your problems are in kindergarten: mot enough money and

not knowing how many pupils there will be?

A That is correct.

Q And then problems that arise out of those two

conditions?

A That is right.

Q And if you stay segregated you are not going to

have enough money, right?

A If we stay segreated money will still be a problen,

that is true. But I do believe the danger of our making a

mistake in how we use the money will be less.

Q If you stay segregated you are not going to know

how many children are going to show up until they actually

show up in September?

A No, but again, we have about ten years--1'm sure

there is more years than that--but I mean I personally can

get in touch and have at my disposal figures for ten years

that would give me a better chance to guess with than if I

have to go into something for the first time.

Q Is it correct to say thatnothing you learned in

converting to the single-zone system last year could help

you in that? That experience doesn't help you at all?

115

A I am sure that we have gained by the year's exper-

lence; however, but to me, kindergarten is our problem, or

I will say that kindergarten is a different problem because

it is not a required grade. I mean that parents are not

required to put their children in kindergarten, and many

choose not to, and yet we could have a change now.

Q You mention a waiting list; during the past school

year that situation stayed the same, a large number of Negroes

on the waiting list?

A In kindergarten? I don't have the figures, as I

did when you asked me these questions last year, as to how

many we have on the waiting list. I don't have the number

available. But we have had some waiting lists at the end of

the year, but I don't think it was == I mean ==

Q Well, do you have any white on the waiting list?

A At the end of the year, I am not sure,

Q Part of your problem about the estimate part of

this, the difficulties you described, I believed you said

was caused by the fact that students had choices to go to

school near a zone or outside, and you didn't know what they

would do?

A Well, some of our probkms come from that, that is

correct, because as the schools are not staffed, they could

take care of the situation as it was last year. We will

have to make some shifts, undoubtedly, and hire more teachers,

116

i
it

or shift some teachers, or something, if a big change comes

about because of this.

Q You could eliminate the guesswork if you assigned

everyone in their zone, and the guesswork comes because they

are allowed, the parents are allowed this flexibility?

A Mr. Nabrit, this is a public school and we could

not assign everyone in the zone and force them to go there.

Q I am not asking you about the policy; but this

is the reason why-~

A It is a physical impossibility anyway, because

they may choose to go to a private school, or a parochial

school.

Q The point is that no one is assigned any zones,

and everyone is left to choose whether he wants to register

in a zone, and he is assigned to his zone school if he

requested, and that is why you have this--

A If you request to go out of--he he requested to

| go out of his zone, he may or may not get the permit. There

is no question in my mind that we will not be able to give

| all of the permits requested to the kindergarten.

Q So that some of the Negroes who applied to attend

white kindergarten will probably not be admitted?

A That will have nothing to do, whether they are

Negro or white, as to whether they are admitted.

The kindergarten is limited to 30, and not 35.

Q Is it true that some of the Negroes who applied

for white kindergarten will not be admitted?

A It is a probability, and it is an even bigger

possibility that some of the white children applying for

white kindergarten will be put on a waiting list.

Q Would the Negro child be put on the white, on a

list for white?

A If they applied to that same school, they would

be put in the same order in which they registered, with no

discrimination as to color.

Q I am not sure you answered my previous question,

which was, isn't it true that without regard to the reason

or reasons you have for the procedure you have now, isn't

it true that you would eliminate the guesswork if pupils

were routinely assigned in their zones, but that they are

not routinely assigned in their zones, and they are told

to show up in their zones, or somewhere else at their choice?

A No, I don't think that would eliminate the guess

work because there are still a large number of pupils being

registered in September, and how many we would not know.

Q I am afraid that I put my question in too many

parts, but the last part would be right that pupils are not

routinely assigned in their zones, and they are told that

you can go to the school of your own zone or you can go to

some other school?

118

A No, you are told that you may go to the school

in your zone.

Q Or you may go to another school?

A Or another school, and apply for assignment, and

have a request for permit attached to it, to be granted or

not granted, as we are able to.

Q But there is no routine administrative action

that goes out to pupils saying that this is your zone, and

you are assigned there, transfers, if you will, and nothing

like that ever happens? Is that right?

A In the single~zone schools?

Q Single~-zone schools?

A No, we do not arbitrarily assign people without

them requesting.

Q You don't tell them, this is your zone, and you

are assigned -=-

A They had to register, and by registering indicate

whether they wanted to go to their zone school or not.

Q That procedure was adopted, that was decided, in

the memorandum or resolution dated -- well, it is in the

record, and it is dated May 20, 1963, is that correct?

A I would have to look at it, because I know that

there have been so many of those,

19637

Q Yes?

119

A Were you asking me about the kindergarten?

Q I was asking you, when you adopted the first

procedure for the single-zone in 1963, if this wasn't the

document --

A Well, this is your answer right here, "...a child

desiring to attend the school designated for the zone in

which he resides must be registered by his parent at the

school assigned to his residence district. A child desiring

to attend a school other than the school designated for the

zone in which he resides must be registered by his parent

at the school he desires to attend.”

Q And that is from =--

A '63.

Q -= 19637

A Yes.

Q The document dated May 20, 19637

A That is right.

THE COURI: Did you ever object to that order,

counsel?

Or do you object to that order, that part of the

order?

MR. NABRIT: I have an argument to make about it,

your Honor, but the comment that I make now is that at last

year's hearing we asked what the procedure would be. The

School Board said they didn't know, that they wanted to wait hd.

120

for the Court to rule.

Now, the Court ruled, or the Court's ruling was

that this would be one way, and they did it still another =--

MR. ROSENBERG: I object, if your Honor please,

because that is not so.

THE COURT: Go ahead, let me hear what you have to

say.

MR. ROSENBERG: I do object to counsel's making

a bald statement that the Court ordered the Board to do or

to handle the registration in one way, and that we did it

in exactly another way. This matter was handled administra-

tively by working up a draft of the procedures that we were

to follow, and they were presented to counsel for the other

side, and they were presented to the Court, informally, and

they were all approved informally.

And, this is the procedure that we followed. And

for counsel to say that we followed a procedure that was

different from that which was ordered by the Court, is just

not so.

MR. NABRIT: I would like to state for the record

that I received my copy of that notice on May 31, 1963, and

the date of that order is -- well, but the Court's order did

not deal with the order, that is, the order in 1963 did not

deal with the method of transfer procedure. The Court's

opinion stated the understanding the Court had about how it

121

1°

would be done, and your Honor read that portion that I re~-

ferred to a little while ago ~~

THE COURT: Mr. Nabrit, do I understand from your

comments that you would have this Court, or the Court of

Appeals, or any court, for that matter, issue a mandate to

the School Board saying that they've got to instruct each

and every child within a given year that they've got to

attend that particular school? You would be taking away,

it would seem, the power of an individual to even breathe,

if you go into that sort of a situation.

The School Board, under the orders of this Court,

under the continuation of the orders of this Court, which I

have so carefully guarded from the very beginning, has made

it perfectly plain that the procedure in this matter must be

quick and without regard to racial prejudice. But I cannot

say that yet you have brought to this Court any affirmative

evidence which indicates that the Board walvered from their

golemn administrative responsibility in the mammer in which

they handled this matter. I think that the Board has con-

scientiously attempted to do its full duty in working this

out,

And I welcome in this Court not a rehashing over

and over again of the same thing, but if you are operating

under the theory that water will wear away rock, we will

probably stay here for the balance of this week listening to

122

this case.

Now, I gave you an assignment in the middle of the

summer time, and you come here with no prior preparation

except to come in and find fault with the plan which is in

effect. You don't come here with something which you would

have supplant what is in effect now, but you come in here

with a delaying sort of a situation now. Evidently you are

not satisfied with the Court of Appeals' judgment, and the

Court of Appeals’ judgment ordered that if the circumstances

were proper and appropriate, they ordered that perhaps two

grades should be integrated in lieu of integrating one, or

two, or three. And the Court of Appeals, in my opinion, was

trying to work with this Court, and it has tried to work

with you.

How, if you want to throw this thing back into

their hands again, you can do it, or we can apply the rule

of reason, and I think that it can be worked out properly

and appropriately.

And, I will say this, that I don't think we can

do it by having this Court issue a mandate to elected indi-~
§

viduals because you are not satisfied with the elected indi-

viduals -~ while they are in office, this Court is going to

recognize that they have administrative power, and not the

plaintiffs In this case.

Now, I would like to know if vour construction of

123

this opinion handed down by Judge Tuttle very recently ~~

MR, NABRIT: Which opinion is that?

THE COURT: That you had to take each individual

case, and keep it sufficiently flexible in order to construe

it in the light of the existing conditions. In the case

of Shirley Gaines, et al versus Dougherty County Board of

Education, etal, decided July 31, 1964, and which you are

very familiar with, Judge Tuttle said: "While the require-

ment for speeding up the plans of desegregation must be

uniformly applied in all school gystems in which litigation

reaches the courts of this circuit, the degree of such speed-

up must remain somewhat flexible."

Now, you have this order, and the Alabama courts

haven't handed down anything on integration in any form, so

that Louisiana has integration in five grades today, or New

Orleans has; now, Atlanta had none, and this order was that

Atlanta should integrate the first two grades, and then take

the next to the last grade, or grade 12, it was, off of the

top. And with that, under the circumstances, that still

puts Atlanta and the schools of Georgia behind New Orleans

in its move forward in this race, that we know, and we hope

each side will be generous enough =-- and, reading this, I

call your attention to the minority opinion in the Gaines

case, and some of it conveys some very commendable Consti-

tutional language --

124

MR, NABRIT: Well, I merely wish to state, despi

the Court's criticism, that I prepared for trial to the

best of my ability, and I've presented this case the best

way I know how.

THE COURT: You are a very able lawyer -=-

MR, NABRIT: I mean no disrespect to the Court,

but as far as the Gaines case is concerned and your Honor

just referred to, that required desegregation in that county

in Georgia, grades 1, 2, 3 and 12 for the first year, in

September, 1964, and this timetable would have them completing

desegregation before New Orleans.

THE COURT: It doesn't say, as I read it =~-

except, that it begins with the process, at both ends, and

is that the way you construe it? I have the decision here.

Did you read it?

MR, NABRIT: Yes, I did. And paragraph 2(b) of

the order requires that elementary schools, the first and fs

second grades, in 1964 --

THE COURT: Right, and paragraph 2(c) says: "In

each following year two more grades shall be added to the

plan of operation," and then == that gives you two grades a

year from the bottom.

MR, NABRIT: And paragraph (d) indicates the

12th grade, in addition to the first and second in September,

A ™ Py E55 a 3 eo: |
FRAT ELC ALLE TT UUWIIWAL WG ULIC

125

grade, so it's three grades a year until it meets in the

middle,

THE COURT: But, turning to the opinion, to clear

this up, Judge Tuttle does say that the rule in effect is

that each individual situation should be governed by the

particular circumstances then existing.

MR. NABRIT: But it further provides that the

same procedure will be followed from the llth, one grade

down, one more grade each year, until after the 5th year,

which they will all be -

THE COURT: And in my opinion I went into the ob-

jections to the approval of this plan, and I went into the

Dougherty case, and, of course, we can change that citation

from the recent Tuttle decision to the case of Shelley

Gaines, etal, versus Dougherty County Board of Education,

which is Circuit Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit,

decided March 29, 1964 —_.

MR, NABRIT: The March 29th has been superseded 9

by the other July 21 opinion --

TF HE C b § NRT Ts We don t t kn ow tha t it ha 8 .

rR A 7 &
L3N 9 N/ VABRIT Yes, -

t has, and it is the same case

March. The March opinion was written while they were

or the Supreme Court. And now they have decided

it, finally, on July 31 =~

THE COURT: They withheld the opinion, the Court

126

of Appeals did, awaiting the outcome in the court of last

resort, in the case of Calhoun versus Latimer, and in the

opinion published on June 18 it mentions -- I am looking for

hat section of this opinion where they say that they would

withhold action, and I know it is here, and I mean the

Court of Appeals withheld action =--

MR. NABRIT: That happened in the Gaines case,

in March, but the Court acted in June, and now it is July 31,

is what 1 ==

po
nt

fe
d THE COURT: You mean after the Supreme Court hac

handed down their opinion?

MR, NABRIT: That is correct.

THE COURT: Well, we are agreed on that,

MR, HABRIT: That is correct.

THE COURT: I don't disagree with you at all.

i
a

MR, NABRIT: My point is that it is three grades

a year for the school system in Georgia, so I just don't

understand -- it seems to me that that does support my posi-

tion that I argued in chambers yesterday.

HE COURT: Yes, but he still states here: "While +

the requirement for speeding up the plans of desegregation

must be uniformly applied in all school systems in which

litigation reaches the courts of this circuit, the degree of

adup must remain somewhat flexible." And does he |

127

t “

r
o
M
h

y x ?
T
s

S
t
l

”

.
e

L
d

LR]

t
n

“,
”,

e
d

oe
pA

¥
a

hot
wd

Xt
o
d

"
ro

5
Q

od
fe

4
4

»
a
d

)
-

’
o
r
k

”
a

a
:

Lo
|

H]
b

4
RD

™

“
-

-
&

ng
n
f

of
y

.
=o

f
e

—-
p

:
|

H
e

.
-

&
ie

y
£
3

{

-
t

4
’

1
od

k
-

od
J

he
y

Fol
P
g

a
a
d

p
.

n
y

-
i

cio
¥

>
4!

q
”

he
®

h
t

.
,

»,

#
%

p
r

4
#
4

ud
bw

y
)

«
e
e

LE
J]

a”

wvey
v
a

a
e

{

oy
pA

:
3

|
11

L
2

y
e

f
s

—

fe on

he -S

hon

"
4

i
F

f
p

T
e

y
f
f

i
|

e
l

L
d

E
3

1
5

3
™

>
J

f
3

“
¢

%
w

:
yf

vo
#

.
#

|
©

J
_

¢
ge

a
po

e
r

f
3

l
a
d

5
|

J
2d

3
"

*
9

Pan}
d

3
4

bud
x

’
4

pr
1

p
h

”

£
a
]

W
d

*
e

wd
'

‘
x

:
3

%
Ny

|
}

pa
fo

of these, and what would be the effect if you had to go

beyond third grade for dual-zones, and you said that the

problems would be insurmountable?

" and I wanted to use that word A I said "almost,

specifically, and I didn't say that it couldn't be done; I

said it would be almost -- well, to be frank with you, I

don't know whether it can be done, whether it could be done

in time for school to start this year and for us to get off

on a smooth, decent beginning for a school year with the

proper number of teachers and the proper places and the proper

number of children, and the proper classrooms, and the

equipment and everything furnished or not. I wouldn't say we

souldn’ do it; I would say, if ordered to, we would cer-

tainly try to do it. But I will say that it is a headache

that I would shudder to even think about trying because we

have tried to do everything with a great deal of meticulous

care, as I have indicated to you. Every application has been

checked by an assistant superintendent, a member of Mr.

Walker's staff. We have been extremely careful that no one

was discriminated against because of race. We have handled

them personally to be sure that no one else could make such

a mistake, and we just could not possibly give the same kind

of service this late in August to schools operating in

September for another grade. We would have difficulties with

kindergarten.

135

I have never said we couldn't do it. The question

was why would it be difficult to do, and on the fourth grade

or the fifth grade, learning about it this late in the year,

and there has been no registration, and it would be impossible

or almost impossible to get parents to come in in August,

and we have no staff in the school to register them if we

did, and from a money angle there may be tremendous problems

that adding another grade at this time of the year would

bring up. And it is just my common sense approach, and I

would say that this is so.

Q What I was wanting to do was to break these down

to see what they were; now, a number of things, or among

these things that were lumped together were the tenth and

eleventh grades at Franklin.

Now, the eleventh grade at Franklin will consist

of just promoting the Negro students already there?

A Not necessarily. There are set standards for the

children, white oF Negro.

Q But there are only 14 children involved?

A There were -- I don't know what is left, and I have

no way of knowing right now.

Q Well, 13 or less?

A The children fail out of Franklin regardless of

race quite regularly, and I have no way of knowing how many

there are there now.

136

Q Let me ask you, there are 13 children or less?

A Or less.

Now, let me go on to answer your question; we

have a regular procedure by which children may be admitted to

the 10th or llth grade at Franklin. No child may be admitted

to the 12th grade; in other words, if you haven't gotten in

before the 12th, you don't go to Franklin,

But if any Negro children have applied at the

11th grade, and I don't know since I have -- I know that we

have applicants, but how many and which grades, 1 am not sure,

but these will be exposed to the same procedures that the

white children are.

So you may have Negroes other than those that are

already there going into the llth grade. It is possible;

if they apply and pass the requirements, they will be admitted

Or if they have applied, let me put it that way, I might --

Q So that is handled by the Franklin School staff?

A No, not the testing. The testing is done through

our director of testing and guidance under Dr, Malcolm Rosen-

berg.

Much of Franklin, unlike the other 120 schools,

there are a good deal of things over at Franklin that are

not handled through my office but through Dr. Rosenberg.

Q As far as you know, you don't know of anything

that doesn't apply to Franklin 10th or 1lth ==

137

A Well, Dr. Rosenberg is the one -- I see what you

mean -- most of those at Franklin come through us, however,

there have been quite a few applicants, not as many as last

year, and last year there were probably 39 applicants, or

somewhat less, but there is a considerable number there this

year. And I don't specifically remember whether they are

10th or llth grade, and I didn't think to ask that question.

Q So as to Franklin, the problem there is just like

last year, and you have slightly less applicants, but the

same procedure to be followed that you followed last year?

A Except that you may have additional procedures

for any llth grader who may apply.

You see, the llth grade doesn't meet quite the

same standards as the 10th grade =~

Q But the procedure for the 10th and lith grades

is roughly the same?

A No. There is a considerable difference in

achievment tests, and the procedure as to the work required,

the achievement test requirement is different. You must be

in the upper 50%.

Q I am talking about the administrative burden that

you have to give the tests?

A Well, you have to give the tests to the llth

graders as well as the 10th graders, so it is a double

burden.

138

Q So in any event, you don't even know if there

are any llth graders?

A No, I have told you that.

Q The next thing you mentioned is the lateral trans-

fers, and that was grouped together in counsel's questions to

you, the lateral transfers for the 4th and 5th grades, and

I believe you have already told me «=~

A They have been assigned.

Q -- that you didn't anticipate any more?

A I have had no requests from any of those parents,

no.

Q The first grade through the third grade, the

second and third grades, that has already been done? The

first or third grades already have been done?

A The first grade has been registered, second and

third grades.

Q So they stay where they were?

A They stay where they are unless they request a

permit. We wouldn't know until school started whether or not

they are requesting a permit,

Q But this work has already been done for the first

three grades?

A Not necessarily; we expect to be at the School

Board until midnight practically every night the first week

handling the permit requests.

139

Q After school opens?

A That is correct.

Q That is for the transfers, but as far as routine

assignments, the second and third grades have already been

placed?

A They have been placed,

Q And you have never chosen to put a deadline on

these applications?

A That is right.

Q You told me that?

A That is right.

Q Now, the first-graders, every year you have pupils

coming that do not go to pre-registration in the spring?

A We don't have pre-registration; or we have only

had pre~registration in the spring for the first-graders

since we have gone to the single-zone.

Q So that you actually have more advance information

under the single-zone than you had before the single-zone

when you couldn't find out anything until after everybody

showed up in September?

A Not necessarily.

Q So the estimates that we just got from the formerly

all-white schools were pretty accurate?

A They were not as accurate perhaps from the Negro

schools =- there was a little give and take on that.

140

Q So you've got more accurate information now with

the single-zones than you had in the year prior to desegre-

gation?

A No, I said that there was a little give and take

on that; you've got it in one way more accurate, and in one

way it is not.

Q But you never had an actual count of the people

at the registration?

A Well, as I explained earlier in my testimony,

about 80% of the white children went to kindergarten over a

period of ten years, whereas there has been 200% or 250%

more Negroes showing up for first grade than they did in

kindergarten, And based on experience, there might have been

more, and the estimates of the principals were often more

accurate than the pre-registration.

Q Do you know what percent of the pupils in the

same time have pre-registered already? Have you got an idea

whether 807 already have showed up?

A I would give a guess, and I would want to call it

a guess, and 80% is probably about right.

Q So that you've got 20% coming in to you and you

don't know whether in Negro or white schools =--

A Well, we have a guesstimate, yes, but as I pointed

Out ==

LQ And that would be done during one week, the first |

141

week after, that is, the first week after Labor Day these

people will be registered and in class?

A Most of them will be, and within ten days after

school starts,

Q During that same ten days you are going to have

new pupils, or you are going to have pupils coming in for

transfer into junior high and --

A That is right.

Q Whether you desegregate or not, they are going to

be transferred out?

A That is correct.

Q And you don't know how many there will be, do you?

A No. We have a pretty good idea how many people

will be requesting permits for senior and junior highschools,

and they are being handled as they always were handled,

through the district office.

Q Will you know that before September?

A The district man will know, because they already

have tallies pretty well kept.

Q But the people will still be allowed to do it in

September, you say? Or did you say that most have done it

already?

A Most have made thelr applications for transfers

to the secondary schools already,

Q So that the district supervisor ig ==

142

A No, I am talking about the assistant superintendent

in charge of the district, district one, which is above

Canal Street, roughly, and district two which is roughly

below Canal Street.

Q And these men know generally where the junior

highschools and the highschool pupils will be next year?

They know that pretty well?

A Yes, pretty well.

Q And they know that there =~ well, they know this

already?

A Yes.

Q So what work is there in connection with that if

you don't desegregate ~--

A I am sorry, but I didn't understand the question.

Q So that most of the work has been done for regis-

tering those people?

A As far as registering those people? That is

correct.

Q And you say =-

A Well, what has that got to do with desegregation?

Q Well, so that if Negroes were allowed in junior

highschool or the highschools that they applied to for trans-

fers, these would be people that the work on, the work on

has been done, other than just the transfer?

A Well, I have to go into a lot of mechanical de-

143

tails to clear this up.

They will start issuing secondary transfers some~-

where around August 15th in those places where they know

now there is room. Some of the transfers they will not be

able to issue until perhaps almost the end of September,

after they have gotten final enrollment and they find out

how many people are coming in after school starts, and they

see how crowded the schools are going to be.

For instance, one of our big highschools, maybe

we know that it is going to be very crowded, but we may find

that there is room for a few more people, after it gets

safely opened. So there would be work, work on some of the

transfers before school starts, and others they will have to

issue after school starts.

Q So that if the Court ordered that Negro pupils be

allowed to apply for transfers to junior high, llth, or senior

high 1lth too, on the first-come first-serve basis, you

could handle it? Right?

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I again

interpose an objection to counsel's going into junior and

senior highschools, which I do not believe is within the

scope of his pleadings, nor is it within the purview of this

hearing.

THE COURT: Well, we have gone into it anyway,

despite the Court's feelings that you should bring this to a

144

halt somewhere, and I am sure counsel would disagree with

the Court if I again attempted to curtail this cross exam-

ination. And, of course, we've had this discussion here be-

fore, and the Court does not want to limit your cross

examination, but the Court is not going to continue to permit

you to go forward with issues that are not strictly those

that are pertinent to this litigation.

Now, I don't know what you are going into now,

but it would seem that the Court could almost take judicial

notice of the fact that if you have to go through the prop-

osition of integrating, of integrating an initial grade

that you would have marked administrative problems which

naturally would arise. Now, whether or not they are insur-

mountable, that is all that you could show, or, actually,

whether they are reasonably surmountable.

But with the capital money that the School Board

has, $12,000,000,00, most of it went to the construction that

had been or were for Negro students. And the planning now,

if the other $25,000,000.00 is approved, it is due to the

same thing, so that there is some chance for the equal

opportunity for educational facilities, and for the total

elimination of zones, which, I understand, arose here, and

I mean zoning arose here with the establishment of a tremen-

dous housing setup, Negro housing established, involving the

movement of several hundred persons, and then began the re-

145

alignment of the school situation to fit in that particular

problem,

Now, I think this thing is continuous, and I

can recognize that the Court has said it is a continuous

problem, and Judge Tuttle has again reiterated that at the

end of the Gaines case, and we continue to hold jurisdiction

in this matter and from time to time it becomes necessary for

us to exert it, and we shall do so.

Now, you have received, and will continue to re-

ceive at all times documents, and if you wish to file anything

that is pertinent to this litigation, and the Court feels

that we have now, without much trouble, cooperatively, on

the part of all persons concerned, civic, business, and withou

regard to race, we have integrated the first and second grades

and the School Board is prepared to integrate the third.

And a result that we had here was that the Court ruled that

the school known as the Benjamin Franklin School, for ad-

vanced students, was integrated by the Court, and it was

opened to advanced students without regard to race, and is

open at this time,

Now, the only thing that this Court would not do

was, it felt that it was administratively -- well, not to

start integration too rapidly, and the process has been

dragging, and the Court recognizes that, and, therefore, the

orders were issued on one or two before, and the Court is

146

w
w

prepared to issue the order to three. And, more than that,

the Court is going to order the formal Integration of the

kindergarten, and the Board has already had advanced regis-

tration and sufficient time to permit the use of its total

personnel from last June.

So we have not, therefore, been in the category

of Atlanta, a city which I greatly respect, and a city which

has moved very slowly, and which this case refers to. And

we feel that the Court will recognize that we here will do

the best we can to devise a method to be fair within the

framework of our laws and the Constitution to everyone con-

cerned,

Now, on this matter, I don't know really what

additional questions you might want to ask the witness, be-

cause the Court is getting ready to adjourn. I believe you

had just about stopped a couple of hours age, and then you

got an idea and you continued with your examination =-

MR, NABRIT: Your Honor, I think I began with this

witness at 2:00 o'clock, or thereabouts, and there has been

a lot of colloquy in between, and I think that the record

will reflect that. And I would like to, and I think I am

compelled to state for the record that we object to judicial

notice of any facts relating to administrative problems, and

we base our objection on the due process clause of the Fifth

Amendment, and I will be willing to cite cases to your Honor

147

on that, after I have an opportunity to go in the library.

THE COURT: Well, do you have any further questions

of this witness?

MER, NABRIT: Any further questions of this wit=-

ness? I thought that your Honor indicated that you wanted

to adjourn.

THE COURT: Well, I meant to tell you, or I told

you that it was really time for recess, and if you can end

this up in a short time I think it would be beneficial be-

cause these men are busy, and I am sure you are as well.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q Mr. Dean, you indicated that you had a problem

about buying furniture? Am I correct in understanding that

the only furniture problem is seats for children, or furniture

for the children in the classrooms? You have some unfur-

nished classrooms, is that it?

A No, this is not what I meant, I am referring to

the fact that, for instance, if many neighborhood children

were to take advantage of the opportunity to go to a white

school, to kindergarten, the kindergarten rooms are not fur-

nished the same as the first grades, or the second grades,

and certainly the higher grades.

There has to be the proper type of furniture and

equipment put into a room; kindergarten is a specialized field

148

requiring special equipment, location, for instance, and

many things of that sort; and we would have to get the room

ready. This poses a problem, and, as I said, it is not in-

surmountable, but it is a problem.

Q So the furniture problem related to kindergarten?

A In other words, it is a little different than

the equipment for a first and second grade room, for instance.

Q So that relates to not knowing how many ==

A That is right.

Q -= pupils you will have in kindergarten?

A That is right.

Q And we agreed, did we not, that you didn't know

how many pupils there would be in kindergarten if it were

integrated or segregated until they actually show up «=

A I believe we don't know how many anyway.

Q So you've got a furniture problem anyway?

A But I do not agree that the problem was not magni-

fied by desegregation.

Q And this kindergarten furniture problem is one

you had every year that you had kindergarten? Right?

A Not to the extent that we will have this year

because we have never had, we have never worked under a single

zone, and the zones are different, and the estimates were a

little more accurate in the past.

Q You don't know how accurate the estimates are until

149

September?

A We don't know how accurate this year our pre-

registration is until September,

Q In the previous years you didn't have pre-registra-

tion?

A We have always had pre-registration in the

kindergarten; we've had it in April.

Q You have had that pre-registration?

A But it was in a dual-zone system, where we re-

ceived some experience to fall back on.

Q Well, what was your experience? Tell us about

that? Was there any difference between the pre-registration

this year and the past one?

A Principals, or a principal in a white school, for

instance, if he, over a period of four or five years, he

| would discover that he would average 20% more in September

than he had in the pre-registration in April, he could pretty

well guess that the next year would not vary over 15 to 25%,

and he was pretty accurate.

Similarly, in the Negro schools he might figure

the same way, and when you are now putting them both in the

same zone, we are not sure how this is going to affect the

attendance. This is just common sense, Mr. Nabrit,

Q So what happened is that there are too many Negro

| children on the waiting list -- that's what you have in

150

grade child in the same seat you put g first grade child in.

kindergarten now, in any given area ==

A Well, as you have pointed out, some of our white

kindergartens can take more children; and they have some

schools, and you know this, where we may have only a morning

kindergarten and we can use that same room in the afternoon.

And we may also have, and there are a few places where perhaps

our first and second grades may be falling off and we can

combine and put a kindergarten in there, and these are some

of the things that we have to face. And we do not know ahead

of time for sure how to prepare. And these are the things

that we are prepared to try to do, if Judge Ellis here orders

us to do, as he has indicated he is going to.

Q But this furniture problem doesn't affect the

upper grades, between ==-

A It affects every grade; you can't put a sixth

The point I am trying to make is that just in a routine running

of the schools without additional problems, we earn our

money, and we are constantly changing furniture, and we are

constantly buying this and doing that, and hiring teachers,

but we have some basis, more established, to go on, and when

you make radical changes, and change things around, you

multiply greatly administrative problems,

Q 50 do I understand you to mean that the more

pupils who move, the more problems you have? Is that it?

151

A It could very well end up that way, yes.

Q And you can't know how many pupils will move even

if the zone is extended to other grades because it is up

to the pupils and the parents?

A Well, the parents have had a considerable choice

in the matter, that is true,

Q Under this kind of a plan, where it is left to

the parents, the School Board can never know any year how

many ==

A Well, you are drawing an assumption that is in-

correct} you are saying that it is left to the parents. We

have promised to try, with good administrative reason, to

grant their permits, and we know full well that we may reach

a point where we cannot grant permits.

Q So you do have certain controls, and you've got

certain maximums «-

A Right.

Q Only to let a certain amount of people in the

schools?

A Well, there may be a time when we would be able

to grant all the permits requested.

Q And when your teachers are hired, do you know that

you will have a teacher in every school, in every classroom

in September?

A No, I wish that I could say we did. I mean we

152

|
i

placed into formerly all-white schools, all-white teachers.

start hiring teachers well before school starts, and we

are still hiring teachers sometimes a month after school

starts. Last year we had extreme difficulties in trying or

in staffing some of our schools.

Q I think the answers to interrogatories indicate

that the schools are still staffed on the traditional pattern;

the Negro schools have all Negro teachers, and the white

schools have all white teachers?

A That is correct.

Q There has been no change in that?

A That is correct.

Q So that when you are looking for a teacher to fill

a spot, you've got to find, that is, not only do you have to

find a teacher with the training, but you've got to find one

of the right race?

A We have to find a teacher to fit better into the

school,

Q There is no dispute between us, is there, that

they are placed in a school on the basis of race?

A Up to this point we have placed teachers in schools

all-white for all-white schools, or, for all-white schools

we've had all-white reachers.

Q I didn't hear that answer?

A I said that up until this point we have consistent] bi

153

25
I

| They have not given us actually what the formula calls for;

| would be true, but they are ignoring the fact that when we

| them will stay in the school where they are now and just

| teach smaller sized classes. In other words, this does not

Q And in all-Negro schools?

A In all-Negro schools all Negro teachers.

Q You testified that there was a shortage of

Leachers, or that there might be because although you re~

quested over 200, the state only approved 145 new positions~~

A Approximately 145, That's what I said.

Q The state approved 145? And you asked for over

2007?

A Well, what I mean is that the state allots us so

much money for the purpose of paying the teachers, and it is

about $300,00 per teacher less than we pay them because out

of the local funds we pay a little more than the state min-

imums through an equalization formula that I don't really

handle in my office, but I am concerned with the number of

teachers that we asked for, and we are allotted so many.

they have worked it on a different basis, and they have

estimated that we will get 4,500 new pupils next year, So

they felt that 145 teachers should take care of it. This

complete our Phillips Junior Highschool, the children that go

in there, in many classes, the teachers who have been teaching

allow us to reduce class load. This would take all afternoon

154

to explain this formula.

Q I believe I understand what you are saying.

So this problem of shortage of teachers, I assume,

is a problem that you have independent of desegregation,

and you would have that anyhow? |

A Let's make this clear, this problem that I was

talking about was shortage of money to hire teachers with,

and not shortage of teachers ~-- this is another problem,

We sometimes run short of teachers even when we have money,

especially in the specialized field.

Q But, at any rate, you have both of those problems,

or you had both of those problems before you ever had deseg-

regation?

A No, but again I keep pointing out that when you

change to a single zone, and you make a radical change,

it is much more difficult to estimate your staffing needs,

the radical switching of pupils back and forth in large

numbers, and not being sure how they are going to switch,

this makes it much more difficult to normally estimate which

schools to put the teachers in.

And, as I pointed out, we were only saved last

year by -- we would really have had a serious problem -- by

the fact that one of our schools wasn't completed in time to

operate before school was out.

Q To trace back, all of these difficulties are

155

caused by the lack of money and not knowing how many pupils

will be in a given school, and that lack of money exists any-

how? Right?

A Lack of money is a serious problem, and, let's

be honest, lack of money, and the radical change makes it

harder to know how to get the best use of the little money

that we do have.

Q Well, the fact that you can't tell how many people

are going to be in any one school «=

A I believe there was a word in there that you «==

Q Well, I mean it is inevitable under the plan, and

it is going to be the same every year, and it is just

apparent, aside from the --

A Well, again, I want to emphasize that we have

| made no promise that everyone asking for a permit will get

| one, We were able to do it last year, but we cannot guarantee

| you that we would be able to do it so far for this year, and

I will get many more requests for permits before the year is

out, some of which I may have to turn down.

THE COURT: Well, I think we've reached a reason-

ably late hour, and what additional evidence do you propose

to elicit from this witness?

MR, NABRIT: I was just questioning on matters

that he testified about on redirect examination, about all

these administrative problems. @ =

THE COURT: Well, I think you have covered the

administrative problems fairly well, and I think it certainly

is a matter of judicial notice that if you've got 1,000

people in a school and you add another 1,000, and another

1,000, you are going to increase your administrative respon-

sibilities, and it seems to me that it just simply becomes a

question of degree. And the Court has already indicated to

you that if this testimony is designed to show that there

are no administrative problems involved in the integration of

kindergarten, that the Court disagrees with you, and the Court

considers it to be a serious administrative problem, but

the Court, nevertheless, feels that under the order as issued

last year that they have had sufficient time for that within

which the Board could prepare to make this move, and the

attorneys, and at the appropriate time the Court will so

order.

But as far as this line of questioning is con-

cerned, unless you have something very important or startling

that you wish to support by this withess, are you about

finished with him?

MR, NABRIT: Well, in light of your Honor's ruling-

THE COURT: Well, I have ruled constantly with

you and have allowed you or permitted you to go endlessly

into details and into far greater cross examination, cross

examination liberty, than I have given any lawyer at this Bar.

157

And all that I am asking you to tell me is what additional

evidence do you wish to elicit from this witness, and what

the purpose of it is, and then, if I feel that it is per-

tidient, then I should give you the right to interrogate him

tomorrow,

If not, I shall treat you as any litigant in this

court, and I shall refuse to permit you to interrogate any

further.

S50, will you state the purpose of the testimony?

MR, NABRIT: The purpose of the testimony is to

demonstrate, your Honor, that the administrative problems

| are such that faster desegregation, or the desegregation of

more grades willl eliminate them because they are a one-time

problems; but, primarily, all these problems are caused by

the way the School Board, by the administrative procedures

that the School Board adopted in May, after the Supreme

Court's ruling, which I still argue was different from what

the Court found.

THE COURT: What I am asking you is what you pur-

port to prove by this witness? And I think that you can give

it to me in two, three, or four or five sentences. Just

let me know what you intend to prove by this witness.

MR, BABRIT: TI seek to show that administrative

problems are not such to prevent the School Board from deseg-

regating more grades.

158

THE COURT: From desegregating more grades?

MR, NABRIT: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: So then you purport to prove by this

witness that it is not an administrative problem to integrate

the entire school system, and join them all together, which

is your ultimate objective? You say that this will be no

more of an administrative problem? Is that it?

MR, NABRIT: If we are going to argue the law,

the Supreme Court stated that the Board's burden is not to

show that there is an administrative problem, but the Supreme

Court stated that the Board's burden is to show that they

are desegregating as soon as possible, if they cannot do it

any faster, and that is what Brown says, and Cooper against

Aaron,

THE COURT: The facts that have been placed before

this Court, combined with all the existing circumstances

leads this Court to believe that we should proceed with due

diligence in this matter, and we have so done. Every time

that I ask you to be specific, you generalize, and you are

going to prove your case by the defendant's witnesses and

no testimony of your own. There hasn't been any effort by

you here to produce a witness here who will testify as to

the cost of operating the school system, and this cross

examination can ge on interminably into the night. And the

Court considers that you have been accorded every possible

159

| 1 latitude that any litigant would be entitled to receive

? from the Court anywhere,

3 We will ask the witness to return tomorrow morning,
*

| 4 and if at that time you have a specific, dispassionate

3 statement showing the Court what you would like to prove,

® | and what you will prove and expect to prove by this witness,

7 | the Court will entertain the matter at that time.

8 So the Court will be at recess until tomorrow

? |lat 10:30.

10 (Whereupon, court recessed,)

| 12

| K 3 13 |

21 |

| 23 |

160

EROCEEDINGS

(MORNING SESSION, Tuesday, August 11, 1964)

THE COURT: All right, gentlemen,

You may proceed,

JAMES A, DEAN, JR

Resumed the witness stand, and having previously

been sworn was examined and further testified as

follows:

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR, NABRIT:

Q Mr. Dean, under redirect examination you made a

comparison of the work involved in registering people under

the single-zone system and the dual-zone system, and I think

you indicated there was more work under the single-zone

system? Is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q You also indicated to me that you had the same

transfer criteria for the dual-zone that you had for the

single-zone?

A That is right,

Q And you had the same pre-registration procedure

for the single-zone grades that had been used in the past

for new pupils coming into the system for kindergarten or

first grade, or whatever they were?

A That is basically correct.

161

| of us handle it, and last year I believe four of us handled it

Q And in describing the work I understood you to

say that the difference in the single-zone, the work involved,

was that an assistant superintendent of school checks every

application for assignment, in addition to the check that

is made by the lower echelon personnel?

A That is correct.

Q Now, how many assistant superintendent of schools

do you have?

A Let's see -- we have one, two, three, five.

Q So then you have five people that check what ~-- I

think 15,000 applications in one year and 12,000 the other

year?

A They didn't all work on this particular job; we

couldn't spare everybody for it. Actually this year three

Q Who are the people who regularly check these

applications? Are they clerks?

A Clerks.

Q And how many clerks normally do that work? Just

an estimate?

A I couldn't give you an exact number; there may be-=

it would depend on the time of the year, but I would say

during the first week of September there may be as many as

ten.

Q Now, would you look at page 18 of the Facts and

162

Finances booklet?

A Yes,

Q Now, and this gives the public school enrollment

for the last school term, October, 19637

A That is correct.

Q In the first grade -- let's take the third grade,

in the third grade there were 6,471 Negro students, and in

the fourth grade there were 6,0327

A That is correct.

Q And so 1 get a total of 12,503 for those two

grades?

A I will accept that figure. That looks about

right, yes.

Q And of that 12,503 Negro students, 225 were sent

letters inviting them to apply for letters of transfer?

A Perhaps 1 should correct that figure because we

have the actual list here, and I was trusting my memory, and

I had also forgot to deduct the fact that 12 of them had been

accepted previously. So I think the figure is closer to

190.

Q 1907

A That is correct.

Q 190 out of 12,503 and in those grades were given

an opportunity to transfer prior to September, 1963 session?

A That is correct.

163

MR, NABRIT: I have no further questions.

Your witness, Mr, Rosenberg.

MR, ROSENBERG: I have no questions of Mr. Dean.

Mr. Nabrit, Mr, Dean's wife is in the hospital

just recovering from an operation, and do you have any inten-

tion of recalling him or may he be excused? He is not under

subpoena, and I had told you that he would be available.

MR, NABRIT: It is perfectly satisfactory that he

be excused,

MR, ROSENBERG: Very well.

Thank you very much, Mr, Dean. You may step down.

MR, ROSENBERG: I would now like to call Dr.

Fitzpatrick.

STANLEY FITZPATRICK,

Called as a witness at the instance of the Qrleans

Parish School Board, having been duly sworn was ex-

amined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR, ROSENBERG:

Q Dr. Fitzpatrick, what is your occupation, sir?

A Assistant Superintendent of Schools in charge of

the division of Research, Planning and Construction Super-

vision,

Q Are you the same Dr. Fitzpatrick who appeared as

| a witness in this hearing in this case last year?

164

A Yes,

Q Your qualifications then are already in the record,

so I will not burden the record by going into that again.

I show you, Dr. Fitzpatrick, a map which has been

received in evidence and marked for identification 1964 OPSB-

4, and I ask you if you are familiar with that map?

A Yes, sir,

Q What does that map purport to show?

A That map shows the elementary schools, single-zones

adopted by the Orleans Parish School Board for 1964-'65,

Q Doctor, for facility, would you step down and

let's tack that map on this blackboard.

Now, doctor, last year, at the hearing in this

case, a map was presented which purported to show the single~

zones for the first and second grades last year, is that

correct?

A Yes.

Q Is this the same type of map?

A Yes.

Q Were any changes made in the single-zones since

last year?

A Yes.

Q Would you point out briefly to the Court what

changes were made?

A Well, I can't read that from here, and may I refer

165

to the map I have here?

2 Q Right, I thought maybe you could just indicate

. to the Court here what they are.

THE COURT: And when you point to a certain school

on the map, for the sake of the record and the court reporter

will you please say what that school is, and where it is

located, so as to keep the record clear on that, please.

BY MR. ROSENBERG:

Q Will it assist you to refer to the changes first?

3 A The first change that was made was the district

J, line between Lakeview and Hynes, and that was made at the

| 12

® 1
14

request of the parents living in the West Lakeshore Subdi-

vision, requesting that we restudy the district and include

their section in the Hynes School.

3s This change was made for schools actually open

3s for the 1963-'64 session. What it did, it changed the line

7 from coming straight down Canal Boulevard, and it included

18 the section bound by West End, Robert E., Lee, Canal, and

'” || Lake Ponchartrain in the Hynes Elementary School District.

2 A change which was made at mid-term, at the be-

ginning of the second semester, at that time we occupied for

% 2 the first time the new Lawless Junior Highschool serving

2s 7th, 8th, and 9th grades. It was possible to take the 7th

24 land 8th grade children out of Macarty School, thereby per-

25
mitting Macarty School to serve more children in grades

166

kindergarten, 1 through 6.

An adjustment was made in the district line between

Lawless-Hardin-Macarty and McDonogh 19.

Q Were those formerly all-colored or formerly all-

white schools?

A These (indicating) were formerly all-colored

schools with the exception of McDonogh 19, which was one of

the first schools desegregated which, as you recall, had a

complete boycott and was eventually converted to Negro use.

-Q How about Semmes?

A The Semmes district was not changed; we had hoped

that we would be occupying the Lawless Junior Highschool

earlier, but construction delays, because of construction

delays we were unable to get into the school, and it was

not necessary to change the Semmes district,

Q I meant, doctor, the Court requested that you

indicate which of the schools that you were referring to

are formerly all-white or formerly all-Negro.

Now, is the Semmes School formerly all-white or

formerly all-Negro?

A The Semmes is formerly all-white.

Q Now, give us other changes which have been ap-

proved by the School Board for the coming session?

A There is a slight change in the Lafon district

which takes one sguare out of the Lafon district, but that

167

will not be necessary for any children to cross the highway

Wheatley district and the Rogers district.

square is part of the Magnolia Housing Project, and we are

talking in terms of 150 or more children, elementary school

children.

We have had an adjustment at Ricard; the enrollment

was down at Ricard, plus possibly due to some of the decline

from Ricard and Lafon going into McDonogh 10, which is one of

your desegregated schools, relieving the pressure on Ricard,

Now, we have another change between Phillips and

Nelson School, and we are looking forward to occupancy, openin|

of the school, of the Phillips Junior Highschool, and that

will make possible converting Nelson from AK-7 school, to

ARK-6 school, and we are now serving 7th graders, and the year

before last we had also the 8th grade in Nelson, So we were

able to take the 8th graders out and transfer them to a

junior highschool, and this year in order to balance the

numbers between Phillips and Nelson Schools, both of which

serve the nearby St. Bernard Housing Project, we have taken

I think two or possibly three squares out of the Phillips

district and are transferring those children into Nelson,

trying to balance the capacity and enrollments of those two

schools.

The Craig School, we have made a change so that it

at North Claiborne. And we have increased slightly the

U
W

168

25 | which is already operating beyond capacity.

We have also cut back on the Couvent district,

moving the lines from Esplanade over to St. Bernard. This

coincides with the districts for those grades which were not

desegregated, which this year we manned as grades 4 through 6,

and will help relieve overcrowding that we experienced at

Couvent.,

We have another change in the Algiers section

where, in order to relieve overcrowding at the Harte School

in the Aurora section, where there is a large amount of resi-

dential development, we have cut out that part of the Harte

district where the development is occurring.

Q Doctor, is the Harte School formerly all-white,

or formerly all-Negro?

A All-white.

And in order to balance the enrollment between

| Meyer, Harte and 45, we also are taking some children out of

| Meyer School who will be bussed to McDonogh No. 45.

We had changed the lines here in the Harte School

| (indicating), and we came across it at General DeGaulle.

At the present time there is no development between General

| DeGaulle and the Jefferson and Plaquemine Parish lines, but

in anticipation of development which had been brought to our

| attention, we felt that we should keep out that section and

| not permit any development to be included in the Harte School,

169

There was also a slight adjustment between Wood-

Pine Highway and Edsen, between McArthur and the river, where

some two or three hundred residential dwelling units are

planned for the very near future. We cannot permit that to

remain in the Harte School and have further overcrowding.

Sherwood Forest Elementary Schoel, which previously

served not only the immediate neighborhood of the school,

but the area extending below along the Chef Menteur Highway,

Highway 90, and the highway to the north, Highway 11 out to

Lake Ponchartrain, the only development previously was on

those two highways, but the NASA development has accelerated

the New Orleans East residential development, and the first

residential area north is the Village D'lest, and there are

several hundred homes under construction or completed at

the present time,

Now, in order to keep Sherwood Forest within its

capacity until we can provide a school, a school to serve

this area, we have taken this group out (indicating), and

transferred those by bus to the Bradley Elementary School.

The remaining part, children who are coming some

fifteen-twenty miles from down at the edge of the city limits,

down at The Rigolets, along Highway 90, and children on

U.S. 11, we will continue to bring to Sherwood Forest. The

number is small, and not growing, but those are the changes

which have been made over the map which we discussed last year,
J

170

the first single-zone map approved by the Board,

Q Now, you may take the stand again, Doctor,

In the answers to the interrogatories which were

propounded by the School Board to the plaintiffs in this case,

in Interrogatory number 1 the plaintiffs were asked the name

the school and attendance area which plaintiffs claimed in

paragraph 2(c) of their motion are gerrymandered on a racial

basis. And in the answer to Interrogatory number 1, the

plaintiffs answered: "The following attendance districts are

gerrymandered:” And they then listed a number of attendance

districts which they lettered from "a" through "u," and one

of the districts that they mentioned is "bus district to

Coghill."

Doctor, is there a district on this map called

"bus district to Coghill"?

A No.

Q There is no such district, is there?

A No.

Q Now, they also include "bus district of Helen s.

Edwards;" do you know of any such district as that?

A Not on this map, but for the upper elementary

| grades, two or three children who are being bussed from along

the lakefront «=

Q But in your single-zone map I understand that there

(was no bus district to the Helen S. Edwards, is that correct?

171

A That is correct, sir.

Q Doctor, not to repeat all of the testimony that

we went into last year, but just to serve as an illustration,

would you explain to the Court how you went about preparing

the McDonogh No. 6 District, and laying emphasis on any facts

which may indicate that that district is or is not gerry-

mandered?

A St. Charles Avenue, which is part of the major

street map for the City of New Orleans, is one of the boun-

daries; Napoleon Avenue also on the major street plan is

another boundary; Magazine Street, on the major street plan

is another boundary, and Doufossat Street, which separates

McDonogh 6, a formerly all-Negro school from McDonogh 14,

a formerly all-white school, and Doufossat Street is three

blocks away from McDonogh 6, and four blocks away from Me-

Donogh No. 14.

Now, the single-zone district of McDonogh 6 was

drastically reduced, having served an area all the way up to

Exposition Boulevard, and even crossing over St. Charles

Avenue,

Q Referring to Exhibit OPSB-1, which is "Facts and

Finances," on page 14, how many colored children enrolled at

the Allen School last year?

A 19.

172

And how many enrolled in the LaSalle Scholl?

None at LaSalle.

And how many enrolled in Danneel No. 1?

None at Danneel No. 1.

And how many at the Jefferson School?
0

P
P

L
O

P
p

I think Jefferson School, one child enrolled but

transferred out of Jefferson.

I have another record here that can verify that =--

one child enrolled, but later transferred out, I think, to

McDonogh No. 14,

Q Now, how about at McDonogh No, 77

A None,

Q Now, Doctor, McDonogh No. 6 was formerly an all-

Negro school, is that correct?

A That is correct, sir.

Q And the Allen, LaSalle, McDonogh 14, Danneel No.

1, Jefferson, and McDonogh 7 schools are formerly all-white?

Is that correct?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, referring to page 12 of Facts and Finances,

how many children attended McDonogh No. 6 in the first and

second grades last year?

A 122 in the first grade, 96 in the second grade.

Q Now, if any of the 122 children who attended the

| first grade of McDonogh 6 last year, had wished to attend

173

McDonogh No. 14, or LaSalle, or Allen or Danneel No. 1, or

Jefferson or McDonogh 7, could they have done so?

A By going to that school, registering at that

school, and requesting an assignment through a permit.

Q Did any children so apply? And, if so, were they

denied the right to attend?

A No.

Q What?

A They did not apply, and they were not denied any

right.

Q Does that same thing hold true for the 96 children

who attended the second grade at McDonogh No. 6?

A Yes, sir,

Q Doctor, from an administrative point of view,

would it be feasible to further restrict the attendance dis~-

trict of McDonogh 6 from what is there shown?

A No.

Q Why?

A If we restrict it much further the school, the

location of the school will be outside of the attendance

district that we have drawn. We are just a couple of blocks

away from the school now.

Q When you drew this attendance district in 1963

for McDonogh 6, for the first and second grades, what was

| that attendance district on the dual-zone, or under the dual-

174

| along Calhoun, which is adjacent to the Loyola-Tulane property

| line, as we go around, is Elysian Fields Avenue, Florida

tracks, and one of the widest right-of-ways in the City of

zone?

A That is shown in one of the exhibits which have

been filed showing attendance districts for all of the schools

and the district was from Napoleon Avenue all the way to

Exposition, which is next to Audubon Park, and continuing

line, and extending from the river back to Claiborne, coming

in at Upperline to Loyola, over to Napoleon Avenue.

The district would include all of the present

district, single-zone district, for the Jefferson, for Danneel

1, LaSalle, McDonogh 14, McDonogh 6, and Allen.

Q So in drawing your districts for your single-zone,

you have drastically reduced the district of the McDonogh 6

district, have you not?

A I have.

Q Doctor, explain to the Court in detail, and I am

going to pick one of the schools of these that were claimed

to be gerrymandered, the Valena Jones School, and how did

you draw that district, and what are the details in connection

with that?

A One district line is the highway along North

Claiborne Avenue, a heavily~trafficed street, and another

Avenue, which is also the railroad yard, and many railroad

175

New Orleans, and St. Bernard Avenue into London Avenue, which

was recently paved into an avenue extending back to Florida

Avenue, or rather to Gentilly,

Q Can you justify the drawing of that district from

an administrative point of view?

A Yes, sir,

The school is centrally located, and has natural

barriers on all four sides,

Q If any of the children at the Jones School in the

first and second grades wished to attend any white schools

in the neighborhood, could they have done so in the year 1963-

"6417

A Yes.

Q Were any of these children denied the privilege

of attending any other school?

A No.

Q Now, I refer you to the Exhibit OPSB-l on page 11,

which shows that last year there were 352 children attending

the Jones School in the first grade, and 314 attending the

Jones District in the second grade, and now you are telling

us, or I understand your testimony to be that anyone of those

650 children, could have attended another school in the dis-

trict if they, or their parents so desired?

A They could have registered at the school of their

choice, any school in the city for that matter, elementary
TRL A

176

school.

Q As a matter of fact, Doctor, under the single-

zone plan it doesn't make any difference, even if you had

gerrymandered the district, as to where the children in that

district could attend last year, is that correct, sir?

A That is correct,

Q Now, Doctor, what is the reason for, in your opin-

ion, for the overcrowded conditions in the Negro schools in

the system?

A One reason is the large number of resident births,

‘and another is the amount of in-migration that we have ex-

perienced.

| Q Do you have any figures which would show the

Increase in the numbers of Negro educables in the past few

years?

A Yes. On page 23, membership, which is the actual

number belonging on rolls as of a particular day, for 1953-

'54 session, was 32,475 Negro children, and in 1963-'64, the
|
|immediate past school year, 62,598, or over a 30,000 increase.

| Q Now, Doctor, how does that compare with the increased

in the white enrollment?

| A In 1953-'54, membership for the white pupils was

36,361, and in 196€3-'64, or ten years later, 38,645.

Q In other words, the white enrollment increased by

a slightly over 2,000 while the colored enrollment increased

177

: slightly over 30,000 during the same period of time? Is

9 that correct, sir?

3 A Yes, and I should also point out that in 1959-'60,

® 4 the figure was higher, 40,894, and we did lose some white

5 | children before the opening of the 1960-'61 session, when we

6 had our first desegregation.

7 Q Doctor, I show you the Exhibit OPSB-22, and I

8 ask you if this does not indicate the increase in kinder-

9 garten and first grade between the number of whites and Negroeg,

10 the number of white and Negro educables, for the period from

1 1954 through 19637

12 A Yes, it does,

| : 1 13 Q Doctor, what does that exhibit show as to the

| 14 rate of increase in the earlier grades as compared to the

15 overall increase?

16 A The increase has been much greater at the lower

17 || grades, as we have felt the effect of the higher birth rate,

18 and in-migrationj we have a much higher percentage of increase

19 at the lower grades.

| 0 Q For example, what were the number of Negro educa-

21 ||bles in 1954 at the first grade level?

W a A 4,610 in 1954,

| ee Q 4,610?

| 24 A Yes, sir,

| 25 Q And at the same date, what was the number of white?

178

| we made of all public school children, Negro children, who

A 4,219,

Q 4,2197

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, ten years later, how many Negroes at the

first grade level?

A In 1963, on October 16th, there were 3,328 white

pupils in the first grade.

Q Three thousand what?

A 3,328, and 7,919 Negroes, Negro pupils, in the

first grade.

Q So that among the white educables you had a loss

of 891, which is approximately 25% of the number of whites

presently attending, and an increase of 3309 in the Negro

system, is that correct, or Negro educables?

A Right.

Q Now, Doctor, is your problem relative to over-

crowding conditions complicated any by the erection of federal

housing projects?

A The erection of federal low-rent housing projects

has caused us our greatest problem as far as school housing

is concerned.

Q I show you the Exhibit OPSB-23, and I ask you what

that purports to show?

A This shows the result of a residence survey which

179

1 resided in one of the low-rent housing projects. We have

2 indicated for each of the housing projects housing Negro

| 3 families the number of children enrolled in the public

lk 4 schools for kindergarten, grades 1 through 12, as well as

5 special classes.

6 Q What does that show?

7 A It shows that out of a total Negro enrollment in

8 the '63~'64 session of 62,598, 14,146 resided in a low-rent

9 || housing project, or 22 6/10ths%.

10 Q Explain briefly to the Court, Doctor, what this

11 does to your long-range plan and the building programs that

12 you submit to the Board?

| . 13 A Our problem is trying to provide enough classrooms

14 to house these children in these immensely populated neigh-

15 borhoods. We have an additional problem where we are given

16 estimates by the officials of the Housing Authority which

17 have constantly run under the number which we have experienced

18 as enrolled from the area.

19 Q Let me be specific, Doctor, are you familiar with

20 the Desire Housing Project?

21 A Yes, that is a low-rent project consisting of

22 | 1,860 family units.

23 | Q Describe briefly to the Court what that neighborhood

24 ‘was like about ten years ago?
|

25 A Ten years ago it was generally undeveloped with a

180

small amount of or some housing, which was cleared for the

erection of the project, but with very few families living

in that area.

Q Were there any public schools in that area more

than ten or twelve years ago?

A There were none.

Q Was the Moton School in existence?

A No.

Q Was the Dunn School in existence?

No.

Q Was the Edwards School in existence?

No.

Q Was the Carver Junior Highschool, which is adjacent

to and on the same site as the Edwards School in existence?

A No,

Q Is it mot a fact them that as a result of the

development of that housing project funds had to be made

available for the construction of schoolhouses in an area

which was uninhabited before the housing project was built?

A Yes.

Q As a part of your job, Doctor, and the doing re-

search in order to plan for the location of needed schools,

and is that a part of your job?

A Yes.

Q And 1s it part of your duties with the Orleans

181

Parish School Board to serve in a supervisory capacity on

the construction program of the School Board?

A Yes.

Q Approximately how many dollars were expended, or

were spent in the construction of the Carver Junior-Senior

Highschool, which is just north of the Edwards School, as

shown on this single district map?

A I have the exact figure here.

The total expenses for the Carver Senior and

Carver Junior Highschool was $5,138,967.95,

Q For that one school?

A For the Carver Senior and Junior Highschools.

Q And what was the cost of the Edwards Elementary

School?

A Edwards Elementary, $696,613.22,

Q And the Moton School?

A The original building $684,833.08, and a twenty

room addition.

Q Leave out the addition for the moment, Doctor, but

the original cost of the Dunn School was ==

A $780,349.30,

Q Now, Doctor, after the expenditures of all of

those millions of dollars for the construction of new class~

rooms, were the educables in that area comfortably and ade-

| quately housed?

182

A They were not,

Q Were these funds that you are talking about for

these schools spent over a period of fifty years, or were

they spent in a short period of time?

A It was closer to five years.

Q ' So what situation did you find yourself in rela-

tive to the children in the neighborhood of the Desire Pro-

ject relative to the Moton and Dunn Schools several years

ago?

A It was necessary to take many of the children out

of the project and assign them to the Lockett Elementary

School, and to the Edwards Elementary School, and even to

place them on a platoon basis going from 8 to 12, and 12 to 4.

Q So in order to relieve that situation, what did

you recommend to the Board?

A A 20-room addition at Moton Elementary School, and

a 20-room addition at the Dunn Elementary School.

Q And 20 rooms accommodate approximately how many

children?

5 Approximately 700 children, based on 35 per

classroom,

Q S50 those two additions accommodated approximately

how many children?

A 1400,

Q When you made this recommendation to the Board,

183

what action did the Board take? Did they accept it or reject

it, or what?

A They approved it.

Q And as a result of that, how much money was spent

on the addition to the Moton and Dunn Schools, and when was

that accomplished?

A The Moton addition, which we have some unfinished

items, just a few thousand dollars, but the total budget,

$421,926.00, and the Dunn addition, $449,443.00,

Q When were those additions opened to accommodate

the students?

A I think it was during the 1962-'63 session. We

had them in operation for the first time for a full year in

'63-'64,

Q Now, Doctor, what was the situation relative to

the Carver Junior-Senior Highschool, which is just adjacent

to the project, as far as enrollment and capacity and increase

is concerned?

A Carver Junior and Senior Highschools were both

operating beyond capacity.

Q This, despite the fact that the plant costing in

excess of $5,000,000.00 was constructed?

A That is correct.

Q So what have you done about it?

A We have recommended additions to both the Carver

184

1 Junior and the Carver Senior Highschools; in fact, bids on

h construction are supposed to be opened this afternoon.

3 Q What is the budget for that?

. 4 A $917,477.00,

3 Q And how many classrooms, additional classrooms,

will that provide?

4 A Forty additional classrooms, accommodating approx-

imately 600 pupils at each school.

Q Doctor, why is it sound from an educational point

| 0 of view to provide these facilities in the neighborhood of

4 the educables rather than bussing them to other locations?

32 A There are many reasons in favor of that; the

® 13 first, of course, is that you want to provide the neighborhood

| 14 | | school where the children reside, where you can work with

15 the parents of the community, Also, you have the continued

16 || expense of bus transportation, which we are trying to elim-

17 || inate throughout our school system.

1 Q How about the time element?

17 A We have the time element where it 1s necessary for

20 |! children maybe to be on the bus from half an hour to

2] possibly over an hour both ways.

| pe 22 Q And in your opinion, as an expert in the field

23 of education, would it be sound to bus the children from the

24 | Desire Street Project clear across the city up into the

25 University area in order to occupy some unutilized classrooms

185

up in the uptown section of the city?

A No,

Q Why?

A Because it would be far better to provide the

school housing in the neighborhood serving those children;

another problem is that we want the cooperation of the par-

ents, and where we have busses serving schools, we do not

have that cooperation from the parents because we will have a

meeting of the parents group, and we have much poorer atten~-

dance because they are not able to or not Interested in

traveling that distance to attend a parents meeting, and

things of that nature.

It is also a problem in case a child becomes ill

during the day, or for disciplinary reasons, if the child

has to be sent home, and many other problems, which you would

encounter in such a case,

Q Are there any disciplinary problems and educational

problems encountered with children who come from areas such

as the Desire Project, which is a low-rent housing project,

which are not encountered with children who come from en-

vironmental backgrounds which are more advanced?

A Yes.

Q And 4s it desirable for the staff of the school

to be in contact with the parents of these children?

186

21]

Q Doctor, I show you another exhibit which I had

previously marked 20 for identification, and ask you what

that exhibit shows?

A This is a recommended, proposed, construction

program for the period 1964 to 1969, a five-year building

program.

Q Who prepared that program?

It was prepared by me and under my supervision.

Was it submitted to the Superintendent?

Yes.

Was it approved by him?

P
L
O

Yes, sir.

~
D

Board?

Yes.

Was it approved by them?

Yes, on May 11, 1964,

Q How many millions of dollars does that proposed

building program cover?

A Forty eight and one half million dollars.

| Q Over what period of time?

| A Five years.

Q In preparing that budget, Doctor, were you in=-

structed by the Orleans Parish School Board to design that

| in order to perpetuate a pattern of racial segregation in

Was it then submitted to the Orleans Parish School

the

187

community?

A I was not.

Q Did you take racial consideration into account in

preparing that budget?

A I did not.

Q What were the criteria that you used in preparing

that recommendation to the Board?

A Present and anticipated future needs, One of our

biggest problems, again, is providing housing in low-rent

housing projects.

One of the first schools recommended is the one to

serve the Fischer Homes, which is under comstruction in Al-

giers, on the Westbank of New Orleans, consisting of 1,003

family units.

Q That is located just as you come off the new

Mississippi River Bridge into Algiers, is that not correct?

A That is correct, adjacent to Henderson Elementary

School, and immediately across from it.

Q Prior to the time that the Federal Government de-

cided to put a project at that location, did you intend to

build another schoolhouse at that location?

A We did not.

In cooperation with the City Planning Staff, that

' school was located and we were able to get a street voided,

and combined two squares for the school site serving A & B

188

residential neighborhoods.

The school was built with a capacity of approx-

imately 600, and our enrollment was running around 525 and

then, overnight, it was decided that that is where the

housing project was going, and it shall be necessary for us

to increase the capacity at Henderson from 600 to over 1,000,

and to build another school, the one designated as Fischer

Homes, for some 1,225 pupils.

We still have not gotten the site on which to

build this new school, but the Housing Authority has pur-

chased a site for us, since we had no funds to purchase a

site, and we expect shortly to have title turned over to us

for that school.

Q Now, doctor, while we are back on the problems

posed by these housing projects, what happened in the area

of McDonogh No. 367

A Very near to McDonogh 36 Elementary School, and

despite the objections of the School Board, the Superintendent

and myself, appearing before committees, a low-rent housing

project for the GCuste Homes LA-1- --15 was constructed,

serving 993 families.

And, because of the occupancy of that project,

and the increased density, it was necessary to place the

children on platoon at McDonogh 36, which is serving that

neighborhood.

189

Q Backing up a few years, Doctor, was it the inten-

tion of the Board to build a school in that neighborhood

before the Federal Government decided to build the Guste

Homes project?

A No. The new McDonogh 36 School was built to serve

that neighborhood. There was no knowledge of the fact that

a project was planned for that area.

Q Now, when the Housing Authority did decide to put

a project there, did the School Board have the funds with

which to buy a site in order to build a school to acccommodate

the children that would be put into the project?

A No, they did not.

Q So what did we have to do?

A The School Board entered into an agreement with

the Housing Authority for them to purchase an additional

square of ground adjacent to the project, at a cost of ap~-

proximately $280,000.00, and to hold that for us until such

time as funds would be available to the School Board to pur-

chase that property.

Q Now, as soon as funds were available, were those

funds allocated for the purchase of that site?

A Yes,

Q And as soon as those funds were available, were

architects appointed to design a school on that site?

A Yes, air. rie, *

Q I show you an exhibit marked 17 for identification,

which purports to be a building contract, and I ask you if

that is not the building contract that was entered into for

the construction of the school on that site?

A Yes.

Q For how many dollars?

A $901,025.00. That is just for comstruction, and

does not include the cost of the furniture and equipment.

Q Did you go out to that site about a week or ten

days ago and make these photographs that have been offered

in evidence and marked 18-A and 18~B and 18-C?

A Yes, on July 31st, 1964. These are pictures of

the building under construction.

Q Now, Doctor, show the Court, if you will, what

will happen to the area around McDonogh 36 when this school,

which is already under construction, is opened relative to

the district adjacent to McDonogh 367

A We are planning an attendance district for that

school which will roughly approximate the area bounded by

Melpomene Avenue, South Claiborne Avenue, the Ponchartrain

Expressway, and Simon Bolivar Avenue, which includes all of

housing projects and several areas adjacent to it.

At that time we will be able to take children out

of the Harney District, which extends down into that area,

near the intersection of Claiborne and Expressway. That will

191

what is the total number of elementary school children that

|children.

relieve the overcrowding at McDonogh 36, and at Harney, and

it will be necessary to make an adjustment in the attendance

district of those schools in the neighborhood.

In addition, McDonogh 38 is overcrowded because

many children who moved into the housing project were per=

mitted to remain at McDonogh 38, so as not to further over-

crowd the McDonogh 36.

Q So does that mean that when the new Guste Homes

Elementary School is opened, it will then be necessary for

you to change your district line or lines of nearly all of

the schools in the neighborhood of McDonogh 367 Is that not

correct?

A That is correct.

Q Is it, therefore, not true, Doctor, that the

drawing of district and zone lines is a continuing, on-going,

living, current process?

A That is right.

Q One last question on the housing project situation;

‘live in the Desire Project alone?

A In the Desire Project, from kindergarten and grade

1 through 6, there were a total of 4,302 elementary school

Q 4,302 elementary school children in this one pro-

192

A Elementary public school children.

Q Now, Doctor, in the building program which is

underway, you have already commented on the Phillips Junior

Highschool, which is under construction; when is it planned

that that school be opened?

A Phillips Junior Highschool, we anticipate occupancy

at the beginning of this school term.

Q When did you anticipate that the Guste Homes

School will be finished?

A We are hoping that we can occupy it at mid-term,

February, 1965.

Q Now, you also have another elementary school under

construction in the Donna Villa subdivision, is that correct,

sir?

A Yes, sir,

Q Where is that located?

A That is located in the area indicated as "bus to

McDonogh No. 39," betw-ean Davis and Sherwood Forest =--

Q Yes, between Davis and Sherwood Forest Schools,

is that correct, sir?

A Yes, sir.

Q Out in East Gentilly, is that correct?

That is in one of the suburban areas of the City

of New Orleans? 1Is that correct, sir?

we A That is correct,

193

[R]

Q What is the status of the Clark Senior Highschool

construction?

A At its meeting last night the School Board approved

recommendations for accepting bids on construction of the

Clarke Senior Highschool gymnasium at a cost of $301,600.00.

Q Is the Clark Senior Highschool presently serving

white or Negro students?

A Negro students.

Q Where is that located?

A It is located -- I can give you the exact address

here, 1301 North Derbigny, with a frontage on Esplanade

Avenue. It is near the intersection of Esplanade Avenue and

North Claiborne.

Q You know where that school is, Doctor, because

you attended it, did you not?

A We both attended it, yes.

Q That at one time was Easton Annex, was it not?

A That is correct, in 1928.

And what is being constructed on this site?

A At the present time we are adding eight portable

classrooms, and, of course, we will construct the gymnasium

consisting of the locker and shower rooms for boys and girls,

exercise rooms for boys and girls, as well as physical education

classrooms.

Q Was there a gymnasium on that site when you attended

194

that school?

A There was not.

Q Did I understand you to say that the Board just

last night accepted the low bid and awarded the building con-

tract for the construction of a gymnasium on that site?

A That is correct.

Q Was it necessary to expropriate property in order

to construct this facility on this Negro highschool site?

A Yes, it was.

Q What were the amount of the bids that came in last

night?

A The lowest bid, or the low bid was $301,600.00,

Q Was that within the budget?

A It was not within the budget; the budget was

$273,252.00, adjusted for rising building costs.

Q Did the School Board in order to discriminate

against these Negro pupils decide not to build that gymnasium

because the bid came in over the budget?

A No.

Q What did they do last night?

A They accepted the bid as recommended.

Q Were any other bids received last night?

A Yes.

We received bids for an addition at the Frederick

Junior Highschool for an addition consisting of a new cafe=~

195

fl
§

ooo i

teria and kitchen, for locker and shower rooms for boys and

for girls, for an instrumental music room, vocal music room,

and homemaking laboratory.

Q Is that presently all-Negro or all-white school?

All-Negro.

Were those bids within the budget?

The bids were not within the budget.

What did the Board do?

S
o

E
S

The Board accepted our recommendation to accept

a low bid of $291,267.00, even though the budget was approx-

imately $250,000.00.

Q The bids were approximately $40,000.00 over the

budget, as I recall?

A That is correct.

Q And the Board accepted the low bid and awarded the

contract anyway?

A That is right,

Q Were any other bids received last night?

A No bids, but estimates of construction costs on

a gymnasium and an addition for Booker T. Washington Senior

Highschool.

Q What action did the Board take on that?

A The Board approved advertising for bids for con-

I struction, at an estimated cost of $627,185.00.

: 'Q Has there been any discrimination by the Board

196

against the highschools which are presently serving the

Negro students in so far as athletic facilities and gymmasia

are concerned?

A None whatsoever.

In fact, there are more gymnasiums in the Negro

secondary schools than in the white schools because most of

their schools are new schools constructed in the past ten

years, and the full plant was provided.

Q In answer to the interrogatories propounded by

the plaintiff, Doctor, in addition to the schools that you

have mentioned 1 see that there are bullding contracts let

at Clarke Senior Highschool, Fisk Elementary, Gordon Elemen~

tary, Green Junior High, Jones Elementary, lewis Elementary,

Priestley Junior High, Rogers Elementary, and Wheatley, is

that correct? Are all of those projects in the mill and in

various stages of completion?

A We hope to have them completed within the next

thirty or sixty days.

Q When they are completed, will that have any effect

on your attendance maps, your zone maps! Or will you have

to restudy the problem at that time?

A We have made certain changes in advance in anti-

cipation of the enrollment in the area such as the Jones

School, and, for instance, at Fisk we are providing better

cafeteria facilities and some remodeling will be necessary

197

there, but it will reduce class size and take care of the

enrollment presently in the school.

Q Now, Doctor, last year you had attempted to make

some kind of a guess as to the number of children that would

be at the various schools as a result of the shifting to

the single~-zone? Do you remember that?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall that?

A Yes.

Q When registration was held in 1963 you heard Mr.

Dean's testimony yesterday, I believe, that there weren't

nearly as many changes as you had estimated that there could

be, and is that a facet?

A That is a fact.

Q When school actually opened in September, there

were mora chlldren that showed up to be enrolled than had

| pre-registered, is that not a fact?

A That is a fact,

Q Now, do you have any way of knowing when school

opens in September this year, what the number will be in the

second and third grades, in the single-zone district?

A I do not.

Q Is there any way that you can intelligently plan

by attempting to estimate those numbers, come September?

A No, because we have no guidelines to follow; it

198

has been fluctuating too much in the past.

Q Well, have you had any prior experience under a

single-zone system upon which you can draw in order to so

estimate?

A Just on the basis of last year, the first year for

the single zone, we can estimate how many children pre-

registered and the total number that actually enrolled, On

that basis we could make an estimate, but there again, it is

still an estimate, and it has been much more than that.

Q But you have absolutely no experience as to what

will happen In the second year in a single-zone system, do

you?

A We do not.

Q By projecting the numbers in the first grade who

registered this year, and comparing them with the number

who registered last year, and the number that showed up, what

will your projectior be as to the number of Negro children

who will be attending formerly all-white schools in the first

grade come September?

A 212,

Q That would be compared with what number for last

A 199.

Q Now, we have had no prior experience relative to

kindergarten in a single-zone system up until this point, have

199

21]

A We have not,

Q Do you have any way of projecting the number of

kindergarten children who would arrive to be enrolled in

formerly all-white schools in September, predicated upon the

numbers of registration?

A We do not, We do know, however, that it will be

much greater than those who pre-registered; that is true

each year of any preliminary registration figure.

Q What would be your educated guess then as to the

number of kindergarten children who would be enrolled in

| formerly all-white schools, Negro children who would be en-

rolled in formerly all-white schools come September, if this

| Court were to order the Board to shift to the single-zone

for kindergarten?

A Probably 200 or more.

Q Predicated upon prior experience, what happens, or

what is the relationship between the number of children in

kindergarten and the number of children at the first grade

level?

A The number of children in kindergartem. is always

lower than the number of children in first grade, the follow-

ing year,

Q Is there any disparity between the Negro and the

white children in this respect?

200

|| game which experience will be applicable in the desegregated

A None whatsoever.

Q Let me rephrase the question, Doctor. I don't

think you understood.

When I said "there is no disparity," what I meant

to infer was, is there any difference in the additional per-

centage of white children between kindergarten one year and

first grade the following year, as there is between the

colored children in kindergarten one year and the same colored

children one year later in the first grade?

A Well, using the enrollment figures on Exhibit 22,

white kindergarten in '62 was 2,580; the sider of first=-

graders the following year, white first-graders, 3,328.

Now, that is an increase there of some 800, or

about, say 25%.

In the case of the Negro kindergarten, 3,394

in '62, and the following year first grade 7,919, or about

2 1/2 times as many.

Q So then there is a disparity in experience between

colored and white in so far as their attendance in kinder-

garten as compared with the following year?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q Now, are you able to tell at this stage of the

system?

A No,

201

that you could expect?

Q Does this further complicate your problems for

planning?

A Yes.

Q If you anticipate 200 Negro children attending

formerly all-white schools and kindergarten in September,

is there any way for you to intelligently project how many

that would mean would be in the first grade next year?

A On the basis of the comparison between kindergarten

and first grade, if it is the same ratio, it would be 2 1/2

times as many.

Q Which would be approximately how many?

A About 500.

Q Doctor, if you have 200 kindergarten children in

September, 1964, do you have any way of knowing how many

first~graders you will have in September, 19647 Negro

children? Do you have a figure there? I believe you have a

projection of 212, is that correct?

A Yes,

Q Now, this year you had 199 first-graders, and do

you have any way of telling how many you will have in the

second grade? In other words, will you have the same 199

or would it be more or less?

A I would estimate a larger figure than that.

Q What would be a rough estimate as to the number

202

A At least 25 or 50 more. It is rather difficult

to estimate how many will take advantage of their right to

go into the formerly all-white schools.

Q Would you say 250 would be a conservative estimate?

A I would think so.

Q Now, last year you had 133 at the second grade

level, and what would be a conservative estimate as to how

many there would be in the First grade come September?

A 150 or more, that would be very conservative.

Q 1507

Now, you had 19 at the third grade level, and

would you anticipate that those 19 would move up to the 4th?

A Yes.

Q Do you have any way of guessing whether that would

be increased or not?

A That's a possibility, but I wouldn't anticipate it

at this time.

Q Now, last year you had 27 in the 4th grade, and

would you anticipate that you would have that same number at

the 5th grade level this year?

A Yes,

Q And last year you had 14 in the 10th grade at

Franklin, and do you have any estimates as to whether those

14 will move up to the llth grade?

A I do know that it was dropped to 13; now, how many
EN EE

203

1 of those will have met the standards at Franklin, I do not

2 know. We can assume 13 of them were there eligible to return.

3 Many students transfer out of Franklin at the

4 end of the 10th grade,

5 Q Do you have any idea as to how many will be ac-

6 cepted in Franklin at the 10th grade level this year?

7 A I have not seen the figures, but I would assume

it would be close to what we had last year.

? Q So, assuming that you would have 13 at the 10th

10 grade and 13 at the llth grade at Franklin, you would, there-

1 fore, project approximately 884 children, Negro children,

12 attending formerly all-white schools come September?

| $s 13 A That is correct.

| 14 MR, ROSENBERG: That is all.

15 Answer Mr. Nabrit's questions.

| 16 CROSS EXAMINATION

| 17 | BY MR, MORIAL:

13 Q In answer to Interrogatory number 3 you stated

19 that the information as to pupils in each zone by race was

20 not available, is that correct?

21 A Not the total figure; we had made a study prev-

| 22 | iously, which gave an estimate of the number of Negro pupils

23 | in the white districts, and white pupils in the Negro dis=-

24 | tricts. We did not make a recount district by district of
|
{

| 25 all the children involved. i

204

| of him, so he can see it.

Q Is this information available at this time?

A No, we don't have the information. We had the

same statistics that we used in estimating our numbers for

1963~'64 session.

Q Do you recall last year that you told the Court

that you could make this information available?

A The information I made available was with regard

to bussed children, those are the figures that I was requested

to furnish,

Q I would like to read the transcript of the testi-

mony of last year from page =~

MR, ROSENBERG: Let the witness have it in front

THE COURT: It is twenty minutes after twelve,

and I suppose that this will be a rather lengthy cross

examination from here on out, so we will adjourn until 1:30

this afternoon.

(Whereupon, court recessed.)

205

PROCEEDINGS

(AFTERNOON SESSION)

STANLEY FITZPATRICK

Resumed the witness stand, and having previously

been sworn, was examined and further testified as

follows:

THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. MORIAL:

Q Now, do you recall that statement, Mr. Fitzpatrick?

A Yes, my answer was with regard to the bus districts

because the number in the bus districts had been consolidated

with the neighborhood children, and the list which gave the

estimated number of children had not been broken down and I

was asked to break that information down. And I did so, and

forwarded the information to our attorney, Mr. Rosenberg.

Q I think the record will indicate that last year

the question was asked, on Page 80 of the transcript: "Now,

is it possible, and I repeat my prior question, is it possible

for you to furnish the Court with a list of the population

of each of these zones indicated on the map by race?"

"Answer: Yes."

And then the other question was: "Would you be

willing to make that available and indicate how long that

will take you to prepare? Would you have it tomorrow or the

206

1 next day?

"Answer: I can't do it tomorrow or the next day

3 because it will take some pulling out of these figures. In

hl 4 most of these areas we have bus transportation areas set up,

5 and we know how many were there, and we know how many were

6 being transported, and we are dealing with the same area. We

7 knew readily what it was, and it wasn't necessary to pull

8 this information from our maps. We do have the basic data,

9 and we can compile it. How long it will take depends on

10 how fast we are able to put it together. It may take a

1" week or two weeks.

12 "Question: You didn't have the material together

| . 13 when you drew the zone lines?

14 "Answer: Each individual area as we worked on it,

15 yes. But there is still-~

16 "Question: Well, as your zones were drawn on

17 guesses, they were drawn on information you had which was

18 either guesses or actual information?

19 "Answer: Again, I state that it was based on our

20 || student resident survey of '61-'62. The guesstimates, the

21 estimates are fur future enrollment=-"

% ” MR, ROSENBERG: May I suggest that the transcript

; 23 speaks for itself, and I see no useful purpose in burdening

v4 this transcript with reading into it the 400 and some odd

pages of the transcript of the hearing last year. I submit

207

that the transcript is here, and it speaks for itself, and

there is no useful purpose that can be served by reading it

back inte this record, and building up this transcript.

THE COURT: I suppose that it is a question of

degree more than anything else; and suppose that this witness

has testified four months ago directly contrary to the way

he testifies today? Certainly the witness could be asked,

"Didn't you say this or that a year or year and a half ago?"

And if he denies that he said it, then the reading of the

transcript is perfectly in order. But I must say that it must

be a positive misstatement or difference in statements, be~-

‘cause minor matters and in a thing like that, could be too

| innocuous to be of any, or to have any bearing on this

matter, because actually we could go on in this thing for

‘hours with just slight variations --

i MR. ROSENBERG: Not only that, your Honor, but

| counsel begins to read in the middle of a page, in the middle

|of page 80, and if he will read the last question on page 79,

| and the top of page 80, you will see that when he says "these
i

| zones," he is referring to the bus zones.

THE COURT: I know that that happens, that by
|

lifting out of context, we all know that a different meaning

can be established,

But you are fully protected on your objection, and

|you may ask the witness, and them if you have any other testi-

208

25
|

mony than that which has been read to the witness, you could

make a request that it be done.

MR, MORIAL: If your Honor please, I beg to differ

with counsel for the School Board; we are not trying to lift

anything out of context.

THE COURT: Well, I have already ruled with you,

and do you want me to rule against you?

Proceed.

MR, MORIAL: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

BY MR. MORIAL:

Q Do you have this information with you at this

time, Dr. Fitzpatrick?

A We did not prepare any new estimates other than

the ones we prepared for the '63-'64 session. These were

estimates and we felt they gave us a very good idea of the

approximate number of children involved, and we felt that

the changes were not that great which would necessitate any

changes needed in the attendance districts.

Q In order that the record might be clear, I would

like to read from page 75 of the tramscript, and if you have

a copy of it, will you open it to that?

Now, at the bottom of the page the question was

‘asked: "I am asking you now if you would be willing to make

available information by race as to who lives in each one of

209

| did you have reference to?

these school zones on the map?

"Answer: The information is indicated on this

area for first and second grades, where we estimate the

number of eligibles. I don't know next year how many first

grade students there will be. There is a variation between

grades. Some neighborhoods grow older faster than others,

and, therefore, there are a maximum number of children of

maybe one grade or another. And I did indicate at the time

that the figures shown on this report for first and second

grades were taken from the total number of elementary schools,

based on the ratio of enrollment for '61-'62. The column

showing the eligible first grade Negro children is 21.1%

of the total number of children in grades one through six.

"So if you want to know how many children in the

first grade estimated, approximately the number of Negro

children, you can multiply that number by five. So, in

round figures, if there are ten children shown, you multiply

that by five, which shows there is 50 children.

"On the other hand, from the standpoint of the

number of white children, the ratio in that case is 17.7%

of the total for grades one through six."

When you were asked this question, what survey

A Well, I think it was Exhibit P-1 of the plaintiffs

in which the memorandum I had prepared indicated approximately

210

‘children who had

the number of Negro children in each of the formerly all-

white districts on the single-zone map, and the approximate

number of white children in the formerly all-Negro schools.

Now, the figure is there because what I stated

in the record here is that I took a percentage, 21.1% of the

total, and, in effect, that it showed how many children were

in each zone.

I said that if it showed 10 for the lst grade,

then the total number of Negro children grades 1 through 6

would be approximately five times that much, or 50.

If it showed 20, then the answer would be 100.

Q But this was only for the lst and 2nd grades, is

that correct?

A We did not have it individually grade by grade,

but we had a total of how many children grades 1 through

6, and we took a percentage of the total of all elementary

children, grades 1 through 6.

Q Didn't you promise that you could provide the

Court with that information for the other grades?

A The information I was asked for, was in my opinion,

was still with regard to the number of bus children. And

you will notice on page 7/5 we are talking here about children

being transported by a school bus, and I think the reason

for this is the fact that we had joined together all of the

been assigned to a particular school -- those

211

| actually enrolled in lst and 2nd grades, and in the case of

and also in everyone of the Negro districts how many white 1 |

living in the neighborhood as well as those transported by

school bus,

Q I think the question in the transcript would

indicate that you were asked concerning the school zones

by race, and there was no reference to the busses, and you

began to talk about the busses =-

A I indicated that we already had the number of

children by race, that we had taken a percentage of the total

in grades 1 through 6, and that was the figure that we had

indicated next to each school for all of the formerly all-

white schools. We indicated the approximate number of

children eligible for lst grade and 2nd grade, the number

formerly all-Negro schools we indicated the approximate

number of white children enrolled in those areas.

Q Would you open the transcript to page 85, please,

beginning at the last paragraph where it says, and this is by

the Court: "And you are to proceed in due course to getting

together this information and the Court placing no deadline,

no time limit, except to ask you to do it with reasomable

speed.

“THE WITNESS: Yes. And I would like to make it

clear for your Honor that we have shown in each of the white

districts how many Negro children we estimate are enrolled,

212

children are enrolled, are eligible, how many white children

are eligible. And our thinking is that there would be very

few, if any, white children applying for enrollment in Negro

schools. And our attention was given to the numbers of

eligible Negroes going into the white schools from the stand-

point of classification and numbers of teachers.”

So this has no reference to bus zones, does it,

or doesn't it include all zones in your answer to the Court?

A I repeat that the figures which were given in the

estimates had combined the neighborhoods with the bus zones,

and that after the hearing I prepared the information and

broke it down separating neighborhood figures from bus zones.

Q Do you have any plot maps indicating where the

children live in each zone inthe city, each school zone?

A We are preparing those maps, yes. We are prepar-

ing, specially in those neighborhoods where we anticipate

changes in the attendance disticts, and even give to the

principal the name, the address, and the grade of any child

who is to be transferred, wherever the Board approves one of

the recommended changes in zones.

Q You are preparing those for 1964-'657

A We haven't gotten any information for'64-'65,

but these are maps for '63-'64. We are still working on

1963-64.

Q When will those maps be completed?

213

A 1 would imagine, or we hope to finish it this

summer, from the standpoint of the plotting of the children.

Q And you will make these available to us upon

completion?

A Yes,

Q Doctor, this is OPSB Exhibit 4, which has been

introduced into the record, and would you take this red pencil

please, and insert each Negro school on that map?

A Do what?

Q Just encircle each Negro school as it is shown on

that map with that pencil?

A Each Negro school?

Q Predominantly Negro schools, yes?

MR. ROSENBERG: If you wish, I will call them out~-

THE WITNESS® Well, I think I can circle these.

MR, MORIAL: Yes, please circle -- pardon me =~

I mean the white schools.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q So circle the white schools, the formerly all-white

schools?

A McDonogh 19 was formerly all-white, but was con~-

verted.

Q So it is now Negro predominantly?

A Yes, a a 7

214

I am not certain of Rogers, which was also con~-

verted just recently.

Q Would the record indicate that the witness had

indicated by a red circle on OPSB-4 the white, formerly all-

white elementary schools, by encircling them with a red penc

mark.

Would you indicate right on this map a legend of

some sort that the white schools are indicated by a red

circle?

A Yes.

I have indicated a legend on the circle and

printed "formerly all-white elementary schools.”

Q Do you have a copy of the Exhibit OPSB-6, which

shows the elementary districts, grades 1 and 2 for 1963-'64?

I think that was introduced at the time of the

original hearing =-- no, it was introduced this morning.

The next one of the exhibits ~- well, it was one

of the exhibits attached to the interrogatories.

THE COURT: Well, the only exhibit that I remember

was this ~-- we have this little green book, Facts and Finan~

ces ==

MR, MORIAL: There were additional exhibits intro

duced by Mr. Rosenberg.

THE COURT: Well, we discussed them, and it may be

that that one is on the clerk's desk right in front of you.

215

~
~

O
n

T
R

N
E
P

FA
A
P
E
S

All I have up here is the interrogatories and the answers.

MR. NABRIT: It was like this, 6 or 7 maps clipped

together, and we would like to have them now for the purpose

of having the witness indicate or marking the same.

THE COURT: Yes, you certainly can have these.

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q Doctor, I show you what has been introduced as

an Exhibit OPSB-6, which indicates the elementary districts,

grades 1 and 2 for 1963-'64, and will you encircle the

predominantly all-white schools on this map as you did on

the map for 1964-'657

A Yes.

MR. ROSENBERG: I would like to state for the

record, while the witness is working on this, that I don't

know what purpcse counsel has in mind, but I would say to

the Court that the exhibits which counsel is now having this

witness mark up, were exhibits that were filed by the School

Board for the purpose of having in the record single district

zone maps, particularly this Exhibit OPSB-4, so that they

would be in the record for an appellate court to be able to

see and to demonstrate that for which they were introduced.

I don't know how far counsel intends to go in

marking up these exhibits, but I would hope that he will not

have the witness so mark them up that they will not show that

for which they were originally designed to show,

216

1 MR, NABRIT: May it please the Court, we have no

2 further intention of having the witness mark the maps this

| 3 morning. I would like to say that these maps were maps which

| ” 4 we requested in our interrogatories, and the one being marked

5 now was one that was filed in response to our interrogatories.

6 The one on the board was one that should have been filed in

7 response to our interrogatories, but wasn't printed until

8 after.

9 THE COURT: I don't see how anyone can be con-

10 fused by actually marking the map, or this exhibit; we can

1 make a copy of it, if necessary, for the Court of Appeals,

12 to show what was intended. As far as the marking of it, it

é 13 doesn't have any effect on it, and it just goes to the weight

14 of the testimony and the good faith of the parties. And it's

15 just that we have to have a way to get the nucleus of this

16 case.

17 Go ahead.

18 BY MR, MORIAL:

19 Q Doctor, will you kindly indicate on this map

20 OPSB~4, down in the legend that Dunbar and Benjamin schools

21 were incorrectly marked, and that these are Negro schools?

| % 22 Will you make that correction on the map, please?

23 THE COURT: Do you have an eraser? Do you have

24 an eraser that will take it up?

25 THEWITNESS: Well, I marked it white, and be told

217

| answer to Interrogatory number 5 respondent avers that the

| school zone attendance maps have been adopted for 1964-'65

f
{

§
}

|
}

‘a description of the changes which had been approved by the

Orleans Parish School Board. The maps are not yet available

| term. And, if so, supply copies of such maps."

school term, and copies of such maps are annexed hereto and

‘marked for identification OPSB-6."

me to mark ==

THE COURT: Well, I think you can erase that.

THE WTINESS: Yes, sir.

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q Doctor, in answer to our Interrogatory number 5,

you indicated that the dual-zone maps for 1964 and '65 are

attached, but they were not attached, and what was attached

to the exhibits were dual-zone maps for '63-'64.

Are these dual-zone maps for '64~'65 available?

A What was attached were the maps for 1963-'64, with

and we had not yet had them printed.

Q The interrogatory was: "State whether any school

zone attendance map has been adopted for the 1964-'65 school

Then, the answer to Interrogatory number 5: ''For

A We don't have those maps, and they were not at~

tached to the answers to the interrogatories.

MR. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, counsel

says he does not have such maps, The maps, and the changes

which were made in those maps are annexed to the interroga-

tories, and all of them constitute OPSB-6, which is the

answers to Interrogatory bes 5, and the maps which were

adopted formerly by the School Board are the 1963-'64 maps,

together with the changes which have been made to those maps

by the Board. New printed copies of the maps have not yet

been printed, but the maps are annexed, and the specific --

THE COURT: That is entirely sufficient.

You are in error about it, are you, counsel?

MR, MORIAL: No, sir, the maps indicated 1963-

1964 maps, elementary districts, grade 1 and 2, 1963-'64,

and the answers to the interrogatory say, since we asked

for '64-'65, they say that they were attached.

THE COURT: They say that '64~'65 were attached?

MR, MORIAL: That is correct, that is what the

answers to the interrogatories say.

THE COURT: I understood that they were working

on that now, or that is what the witness testified to.

MR, MORIAL: Well, in the answer to interrogatories

they say that they were annexed to the answers, but they

were not.

THE COURT: Is that so?

MR, MORIAL: He says that they were available,

or that they are ready, so we would like to have them, your

Honor.

219

1 THE COURT: What about that, counsel?

4 MR. ROSENBERG: It is no error, your Honor, and

| 3 I prepared the interrogatories from the information given to

” 4 me by Dr. Fitzpatrick, and I am trying to explain to counsel,

5 || and I want the Court to understand --

6 THE COURT: Is there one simple explanation?

7 || bid you say that the maps covering '64-'65 session were an-

% nexed?

9 MR, ROSENBERG: Yes, and they are annexed.

10 The maps which are annexed show that they are the

1! maps for '63-'64, and the maps for '63-'64 have been adopted

12 | by the Orleans Parish School Board for the years '64-'65,

| @ 13 with a change of certain specific, amended changes, which

| 14 | are specifically itemized and are annexed to the map to show

| 18 what the changes are. And these are maps for '63-'64, and

16 together with these changes, are the maps for 1964-'65,

7 THE COURT: And the witness has also testified

18 || as to the changes that were made?

1? MR, ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

20 THE COURT: And after getting the additional

21 information, as probably will be the case, you will have this

@ 22 flexibility from time to time as this matter proceeds?

23 MR, ROSENBERG: That is correct.

24 THE COURT: We spent about fifteen minutes on this

25 | matter just now which there is not the slightest occasion for,

220

Now, I want to ask counsel, since Mr. Rosenberg

has explained it perfectly, and I think that counsel, you

can just look at that and say, refer to -- this refers to

'64 and '65, and, of course, that was brought about by the

changes or addenda which were submitted for the two previous

years ==

MR, MORIAL: We understand the explanation now,

your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, I just don't want this to happen

every few minutes, because it just places an unusual and

onerous approach upon the trial of the case.

MR, MORJAL: Well, if that is the situation,

the answers to the interrogatories should have made that

clear and indicated that such was the case.

THE COURT: Well, there is a burden that rests

upon the complainants, and in this case I have listened to

all this business with all the time and attention that I

could give it, and you do have a burden, but you seem to

have the attitude that "we don't have to do a thing except

sit back and cross examine the defendant School Board's

witnesses.” And the Court gets a little bit concerned about

the apparent refusal of counsel for the complainant to ever

come up with a plan of their own. You want to tear this

one to pieces, and you want to wrap together this situationm,

but this Court is concerned, seriously concerned about this

221

matter, and if you feel that this plan is wrong, then let's

see what better plan have you got which you can prove up

through experts and other witnesses, that would permit this

Court to deal justly with this matter?

Now, I am not going to mention this much any more,

and I have never meant anything as much as I mean this, but

when you do not come up with a plan, a plan of effective

operation in place of the plan that you criticize, then I

think that you are subjecting yourself to just criticism from

this Court.

Now, that is the situation, and if you are trying

just to show the weaknesses of the School Board case and

have no substitute plan of your own, then we might as well

know that,

Now, what is the answer to that, Mr. Nabrit? Do

you have any other plan?

MR, NABRIT: No, your Honor, I take the view

that, with my experience in the school cases, as has been

indicated to me, that trying to present alternative plans

damages my case, It is just not an effective way of doing it,

and 1'11 try to explain why again by answering the question,

and I will say no, and I am trying to explain why 1 feel

that that is not the best way to present my case ==

THE COURT: As a matter of strategy you feel that

your policy would be to tear down and not to attempt to build

222

up, whereas this Court is interested in the building up of

a plan that will do justice to the Constitutional rights of

these complainants, and at the same time be a practical

solution of this very serious problem, and with the considera-

tion of the administrative details, and with due consideration

of the economics and other factors involved. And I am trying

to tell you that, but =~

MR, NABRIT: I am aware of your problems on this,

your Honor, and I am just trying to explain ours.

THE COURT: All we do here is go over and over

again the same thing with these witnesses that they have

testified to before ~~ well, some of them have, and some of

them haven't, but I would like to reach some point where we

are going to stop the argumentative character of what is

taking place now.

Just go right ahead and proceed, and I will give

you some additional latitude in this matter.

Mr. Morial, I wish you would confine it as closely

as possible to the facts, responsive matters, and not so

much criticism of the other plan.

MR, MORIAL: I will try to do that, your Honor,

| BY MR, MORIAL:

Q Dr, Fitzpatrick, on direct testimony you testified

as to certain changes in the school zones, is that correct?

A Yes,

Q Were any of these zone changes made between

formerly all-white and formerly all-Negro schools? Or were

all these changes between all-white schools and all-Negro

schools?

A I will have to study the map.

Q Will you take a few minutes to do that, please?

A It would appear that the changes are between

formerly all-white schools or between formerly all-Negro

schools.

Q The question was, were any changes made between

the white system and the Negro system or the formerly all-

white schools and the formerly all-Negro schools, as between

those two classes of schools?

Or were the changes only made as they affected

formerly all-white schools and between formerly all-white

schools?

A The changes were made between formerly all-white

schools and formerly all-Negro schogls.

Q There was no interchanges as between the formerly

all-white schools and the formerly all-Negro schools?

A None that I noticed here.

Q Is the same true of the statement you made in your

testimony concerning the future school building in that the

buildings are all proposed as planned for presently, for

Negro schools or white schools? I mean in the long-range

224

D'lest, predominantly all-white neighborhoods. And how many

building program?

A That is not so. Of course, many of the neighbor-

hoods that we are trying to provide schools, like the large

housing projects, maybe all-Negro, so the schools, the en-

rollment would be all-Negro. But we are trying to provide

schools in outlying, new subdivisions, say like the Aurora

section over in Algiers, or New Orleans East, the Village

Negro families will move in, I don't know.

Q In the example that you gave on direct examination

as to the future zone changes, were those examples only

between white schools? On direct examination I think you

gave certain examples as to the future zone changes? Do

you recall?

A The ones I referred to were mainly those pertaining

to McDonogh 36, and the Guste Homes under construction, the

Guste Homes school, the Harney School, and schools in that

neighborhood where we have new construction. Those happen to

be all-Negro schools, and in all-Negro neighborhoods.

Q So whatever zone changes would take place would

be between all-Negro schools?

A Not necessarily, no, sir. Those are the ones that

I referred to. It is quite likely that there would be other

changes.

Q I think you stated in your direct examination

225

that there was no bus districts affecting the Coghill School?

A On the map there is no bus district shown, but we

do transport children to many schools where bus districts are

not shown,

For instance, we bus to Lakeview, we bus to

Hynes, and we bus to many other schools where there is a large

district and the children are beyond a mile walking distance.

Q There is a bus district to the Coghill School,

isn't there?

A We do transport children by bus.

Q Would you indicate that bus district to the Court

on the map, please? And if it isn't shown on the map, would

you mark it on that map and then indicate it by a legend?

A The Coghill district elementary school comes all

the way to Elysian Fields (indicating on map), and we are

bussing children ~~ I am not quite sure whether we are

still transporting children in this corner (indicating on

map ), Southern University here, but we were transporting

from there.

Q Would you read the bus district, as you indicated,

if possible?

A Well, Franklin -- Filmore-Franklin, and that would

‘be this section here (indicating on map), lst and 2nd grades.

I Q Would you indicate that on that map, please, as

a bus district? And put "bus, Coghill"?

[
4
]

MB. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I object

to marking that as a bus district to Coghill; the area

marked by the witness is within the delineated area for

the Coghill zone. It so happens that the Coghill zone is

of such density that there are busses that take the children

to the Coghill School. But it is all part of the Coghill

district, and not a district that is separate.

MR, MORIAL: May I be heard, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR, MORIAL: On direct examination, on the gues~-

tioning by Mr. Rosenberg, this witness denied there was a

Coghill bus district, and in very clear terms, as we demon=-

strated from this material, there is a bus district.

MR. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, there is

not a Coghill bus district} there is a Coghill district which

+ is part of one homogenous district, and it so happens ==

THE COURT: Well, I will let the witness testify.

I overrule the objection.

| BY MR, MORIAL:

Q Doctor, I show you what is indicated as the Direc~-

tory of the Public Schools of New Orleans, louisiana, for

| the session 1963-'64,

Is this a school directory?

A it is.

| Q Does this indicate, this directory, in the dis-
A A CR CY Er SPA ais poi mR 5 PARR LL Be el at eM A a i IA es CA Aa a

227

tricts on page 83 for the Coghill Elementary School --

A It does.

Q Well, will you read under there where it indicates

"bus district" please?

A It indicates "bus district for grades 'l and 2,°

Franklin Avenue, Pressburg, Peoples Avenue, Filmore Avenue,

and Franklin Avenue."

My statement this morning was that there was no

Coghill bus district shown as such. We have other schools

where we don't have a bus district shown on the map, but

the area is spelled out so that our transportation manager

will know which children are eligible to ride to school by

school bus.

MR, MORIAL: Would the Court please instruct the

witness to answer the question in a responsive manner?

THE COURT: All right, counsel.

I think we will save time if we try to narrow a

little bit, and try to get a yes or no answer, if you can.

And will you try to give a yes or no answer? And if you can,

we can ==

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q 1 show you what has been introduced as OPSB-7,

and ask you if you are familiar with the information contained

in that exhibit under part 27

A Yes, sir,

1 Q Would you kindly explain this section to the

2 Court?

3 A Part 2 indicates for the school year '58-'59

4 through the school year '63-'64, up to May 11, 1964, the

5 actual number of teachers employed, both white and Negro.

6 Q This would be a total number of teachers employed

7 over that period, including the turnover?

8 A That takes care of the requirements; that takes

? care of the increased numbers of teachers, and takes care of

10 those assigned or taking the place of teachers on leave.

1 Q This figure for 1963-'64 through 5~11, 1964, and

12 under that is 563, and what does that indicate?

| 13 A That indicates that since the close of the '62-

| 14 '63 session, that contracts were signed with 563 people to

15 staff the white schools. Many of those are teachers who

16 resigned and left for other systems, or took various types

17 of leave of absence, and a few of them may have been for ad-

18 ditional positions.

19 And the figures under the column headed "Negro,"

20 showing 413 for the comparable period, would indicate the

21 number of Negro contracts that were signed.

22 Q For that period?

23 A That is right.

24 Q Does this table, part 2, actually indicate the

25 total nunber of individuals employed, or does it indicate

229

the total number of new individuals employed within a given

period over that period of years from 1958 through May 11,

19647

A For '63, '64, the 563 teachers who were hired

were hired to take care of the increased teaching positions,

and to take care of teachers who had retired, teachers who

had resigned, and teachers who had gone on maternity leave,

military leave, sick leave, and special leaves, and so on.

Q I understand that, but I want you to explain,

Doctor Fitzpatrick, is that this shows the total number of

individuals employed? In effect, it rapresents a total

number of new persons employed or replacements, is that

correct?

A That is correct, it is a turnover figure.

Q A turnover figure? That's what I wanted to know.

In other words, would it be clearer to lable this

part 2, the total number of new individuals employed instead

of a total number of individuals employed?

A Either way, I suppose.

Q So from the period 1963-'64 through May 11, 1964,

a total of 976 new persons were employed? |

A That is right.

Q And of that number 563 were white, and 413 were

Negro?

A That is correct.

230

Q Doctor, do you have a copy of "Facts and Finances"

2 for 1963-'647

i; : A Yes, sir.

; THE COURT: As a matter of strategy, I want to

inquire into your method of procedure, Mr. Morial. Will you

6 have one of your own witnesses, your own men here in court,

7 the lady, or one of your plaintiffs seeking admission?

8 MR. MORIAL: No, your Honor,

? THE COURT: Where are your plaintiffs?

10
First, how many persons were petitioners? It

1 : or i
began a long time ago with two, and wasn't it supplemented

32 by 175 later?

4 13 MR. MORIAL: Yes, your Honor, it was,

14 THE COURT: And this was set up as a class action

| at that time?

16 MR, MORIAL: That is correct. Initially as a

17 class action on behalf of the intervenors.

i THE COURT: I was wondering about that particular

19 :
procedure,

20 All right.

21 BY MR, MORIAL:

22 Q Doctor, would you turn to page 6 of Facts and

23 | Finances? Or, would you take this, Doctor, and this being

24 | OPSB-2, and what is the capacity of the Lee School? What is

25 | the capacity of the Lee School?

231

A Estimated capacity, 435.

Q And what was the attendance at the Lee School

during 19--, enrolled as of September, 1963-'64?7 Or as of

October 16, 19637

A 210 white, plus 19 colored.

Q That leaves how many vacant spaces in that school?

A Well, the difference between 229 and the 435,

would be 206, if my mathematics is correct.

Q What is the capacity of the Lafayette School?

A 845.

Q How many students were enrolled in that school as

. of October 16, 1963?

A 515 white and 11 Negro.

Q That would leave how many vacant pupil stations?

A 329.

Q Would it be 319 or 3297

A Let me figure it again --

Q We are on Lafayette School.

A 319.

Q What is the capacity of the Johnson School?

A 835.

Q And what was the enrollment at the Johnson School

as of October 16, 19637

A 978.

Q Then that school would be over capacity by how

232

1 many pupils?

? A 123.

4 3 Q Would you point out to the Court the location of

® 4 the Lee and the Lafayette Schools, and the location of the

3 Johnson School?

6 A Yes. (Indicating on map.) This is Lee, and this

7 is Lafayette, and this is Johnson.

5 Q Lee and Lafayette are white schools?

A Formerly all-white schools,

10 Q And Johnson is a formerly all-Negro school =--

| i A Yes.

12 Q At least as to the lst and 2nd grades?

® 13 Now, the Lee and Lafayette Schools are near the

4 | Johnson School?

i A Yes, sir.

16 0 Could you tell me what the boundaries are for the

7 Lee School, the lst and 2nd grades, single-zone, the boundaries

18 for Lee School?

1? A The boundaries for Lee School, St. Charles Avenue,

20 Cambronne, South Claiborne Avenue, and Burdette; and the

2] boundaries for the Johnson School, the Mississippi River or

L 22 || Orleans-Jefferson Parish line, South Claiborne Avenue, and

3 . Cambronne.

24 Q Is there any natural boundary or thoroughfare

2 separating the Johnson and Lee distridts?

233

School?

1963?

16, 1963?

Yes, but it is Carrollton Avenue ~~ lee School

faces on Carrollton =~ I mean if we could keep the children

from crossing Carrollton Avenue, it would be better there.

But we have used Cambromne, which is three blocks each way

from Lee and Johnson.

Now, Doctor, what is the capacity of the Allen

735.

What was the enrollment there as of October 16,

293 white, plus 19 Negro.

That would leave a total of how many vacant pupil

| stations at that school?

423.

What was the capacity of the Wilson School?

630.

And what was the attendance there as of October

367 white plus 20 Negro.

And that would leave how many vacant pupil stations

243.

And McDonogh No. 7, what was the capacity dof that

234

[5
]

Q What was the attendance as of October 16, 19637

A 273.

Q That would leave how many vacant pupil stations

at that school?

A 182.

Q 1at was the capacity of the Lafon School?

A 1975.

Q How many students were enrolled there as of

October 16, 1963?

A 2,491.

Q That would be an excess?! How many pupils in

excess of the capacity? J

A 516.

Q Now, the Allen, Wilson, and McDonogh No. 7 are

predominantly white schools?

A That is correct.

Q And Lafon is predominantly a Negro school, or all~-

Negro school?

A That is correct.

Would you point out to the o
O

of those predominantly white schools?

Court the locations

A McDonogh 7, Allen and Wilson (indicating on map).

Q Will you point out to the Court where the Lafen

School is located?

A Lafon (indicating on map).

correct?

A That is correct,

Q Are there any natural boundaries or thoroughfares

within the Lafon School District?

A There are quite a number of major streets running

through the area; we have used South Claiborne Avenue,

Washington Avenue, St. Charles Avenue, Loyola, and those are

the major streets that we have used in the area.

or cross these streets to get to the Lafon School?

A No, sir, those are the boundaries 1 gave you.

Q Are there any major thoroughfares or natural

boundary lines within those boundaries for the Lafon School?

A Loyola extends all the way down, Freret Street,

Napoleon Avenue, Toledano, Louisiana Avenue -- all those are

major traffic arteries.

Q And those major traffic arteries are within those

boundaries for the Lafon School?

A That is correct.

rather, would have to cross these major thoroughfares?
1}
i

A Yes.

Q And I mean to get to Lafon School?

A Yes, certain children, yes, Most of the enrollmen

Q All three of those schools are near Lafon, is that

Q Children attending the Lafon School have to traver

Q Children living in the area of, or in that district,

23 6

comes from the Magnolia Housing Project, which surrounds the

school. The school is built inside of the project.

Q What is the estimated capacity of Shaw School?

Q And what was the enrollment at the Shaw School as

of October 16, 19637

Pi
e A 311 plus 28 Negro,

Q And that would leave how many vacant pupil stationgl

A 326.

Q What was the estimated capacity at the Gayarre

School?

A 995.

Q What was the enrellment there as of October 16,

19637

A 854 white, plus 1 Negro.

Q That would leave how many vacant pupil stations at

that school? |

A 139.

Q Did you say 139 or 140? Would you check your
id

figures?

A 995 capacity figure, 854 plus 1, 855, that is

correct, so that would make it 140.

Q 1407

b
i

That is correct.

Q What was the estimated capacity of Palmer School?
EE

237

1 A 1120.

2 Q What was the enrollment as of October 16, 1963?

3 A 444 white and 7 Negro, or 451,

® 4 Q Leaving a total number of how many vacant pupil

3 stations at that school?

6 A 669.

7 Q What was the capacity, or what is the capacity

8 of the Frantz School?

9 A 540.

10 Q What was the enrollment there as of October 16,

1 19637

12 472 white plus 28 Negro.

pa 13 Q That would leave how many?

14 A 500, total 500, which would leave a difference

| 15 | of 40.

16 Q So there are 40 vacant pupil stations at that

17 || school, or there were, in the '63-'64 school year?

| 18 A Based on the estimated capacity, yes.

19 Q What was the estimated capacity of the lockett

20 School?

21 A 1345.

v] 22 Q What was the enrollment there during 1963-'64,

23 (las of October 16, 19637

24 A 1492, but I would like to state there was an ad-

25 ||justment made in this district during the year, as we changed

238

numbers between Moton and Dunn, Edwards, and Lockett.

Q But no changes to Shaw, Gayarre, Palmer and

Frantz, though, did it?

A No.

Q So the number of vacant pupil stations remained

the same there?

A That is correct.

Q On the basis of those figures that you have just

given that would indicate that as of October 16, 1963, there

were how many vacant pupil stations in the Lockett School?

How many over capacity?

A 147.

Q Now, Doctor, would you indicate the location of

those four predominantly all-white schools on the map, and

basing it on the 1964-65 =~

A Gayerre, Shaw, Palmer and Frantz (indicating on

map.)

Q Will you also indicate the location of the Lockett

School?

A Yes. {Indicating on map).

Q And the attendance district for Lockett School is

bounded on three sides by the attendance districts for the

| predominantly all-white schools, is that correct? I mean

| aceording to the map?

A Actually, it would be four white schoo ls.

239

Q Yes, four white schools, but the attendance

districts for those white schools border on three sides the

attendance district for the Lockett School? Is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Would Gallier be considered a major thoroughfare

or natural boundary?

A Gallier? To the extent that it borders on the

Florida Avenue housing project, and only recently we have

permitted children to go from that area into Frantz School.

It had been a bus area into Palmer School, and it still is

for grades 4 to 6.

Q Are there any major thoroughfares or natural

boundaries within the attendance district for the Lockett

School?

A Florida Avenue, which would be just below Abun~

dance, which is shown there.

Q Is there any other?

A North Galvez.

Q Those would be the only two major thoroughfares

within that school attendance district?

A Only one that I can recall right now, and there is

a bus line on louisa, but it is not part of the major street

system.

Q What is the estimated capacity of the Live Oak

240

school, and 12 rooms have been assigned for elementary use

in this school, and on the basis of those 12 rooms we have

estimated the elementary capacity at 420.

Q And what was the enrollment as of October 16,

1963 at the Live Oak School?

McDonogh No. 17

A 770.

16, 1963 ==

A 756 white, plus 1 Negro.

Q 757 total? And that would leave an excess of

how many pupil stations?

A 13.

ber 16, 1963?

A 134 white plus 55 Negro, or a total of 189.

A Live Oak is a combination elementary-junior high-

A 354.

Q And that would leave an excess of how many pupil

stations?

A 66.

Q What was the estimated capacity of the Laurel-

Q What was the enrollment at that school on October

Q What was the estimated capacity of McDonogh No. 10

School?

A 315.

Q What was the attendance at that school as of Octo~-

241

Q That would leave an excess of how many student

stations?

A 126.

Q And what was the estimated capacity of the Jackson

School?

A 680.

Q And that would leave an excess of how many pupil

stations?

A There were 503 white plus 22 Negroes enrolled, or

a total of 525, leaving a balance of 155.

Q What is the estimated capacity of the Lewis School?

A 435 with eight classrooms under construction that

we should have available when school opens or shortly after.

Q What was the attendance last October, October 16,

1963, on the basis of the estimated capacity for '63?

A 696.

Q And that left a total of how many vacant pupil

stations -- I mean an excess of how many pupils in that school

over capacity?

A 241,

Q Now, will you indicate on the map for the Court

the boundaries, naming the streets for the Lewis School?

A I can read it from the directory.

Q Will you do that, please?

However, as you read it, if possible, I would like

242

that the Lewis district is gerrymandered, and was not included

you to point out to the Court =-- would you do it on this one >

please, so that the Court will have the benefit of your

information, and --

A Well, the river, 9th Street, Chippewa, Sixth,

Laurel, Washington Avenue, Magazine, 3rd, Annunciation,

2nd, Chippewa, Philips, St. Thomas, Josephine, and back

to the river (indicating on map).

MR, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, if the

purport of this testimony is to attempt to show that the

Lewis district is gerrymandered, I object to it on the

ground that in answer to my interrogatories as to which dis-

tricts the plaintiffs allege to be gerrymandered, lewis is

not included. They apparently are now attempting to show

in the reply to my interrogatories.

MR. MORIAL: We are trying to point out the district

of the Lewis School, and we are trying to point out to the

Court the district of =--

THE COURT: Well, what attack is there on the

Lewis School district? What is the purpose, again?

MR. MORTAL: The purpose is that we are going to

indicate that there are bus zones near this school surrounded

by Live Oak, and the other schools, which are under capacity--

MR. ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, if that

is an attempt to show that the Lewis School district is

243

gerrymandered, I claim surprise because in the preparation

of the case I asked plaintiffs to name the districts that

they claimed were gerrymandered, and Lewis was not among

them.

MR. MORIAL: May it please the Court, your Honor,

we are simply bringing out testimony as to the facts sur-

rounding Lewis School, and it is for the Court to decide

whether or not this district has been gerrymandered.

THE COURT: Well, you have answered interrogatories

and you have set up certain ones that you assert have been

gerrymandered, and you have shown the Court a copy of that

documentation, and you have arrived at your cenclusion by

trying to find out how many Negroes attended the schools in

that zone, and how many whites attended, and in that way you

determined the capacity and then you find out the number of

whites that go there, taking away from the total capacity,

and it indicates the figure which you have used to develop

your position of gerrymandering.

Is that correct?

MR, MORIAL: We are just attempting to develop

our position that there are schools nearby, and which schools

are under capacity, and there are predominantly Negro schools

‘which are over capacity in that area, and there are bus zones

adjacent to those schools, and these children are being bussed

great distances away from those schools that have vacant pupil

244

stations.

THE COURT: But basically your attack is leveled

at the proposition that the Negro schools are still over-

crowded, and that the white schools are not, isn't that

correct?

MR. MORIAL: That is correct, your Honor.

THE COURT: Now, in your answers to the interroga~-

tories, and do you have them directly in front of you now,

because I have them here, and you say that the following

districts are gerrymandered, and you set up Johnson, McDonogh

24, McDonogh 6, Lafon, Paul Lawrence Dunbar, Judah P. Benja~

min, bus district of Judah P. Benjamin, McDonogh 38, Marie

C. Couvent, Joseph A. Craig, McDonogh 42, bus district of

McDonogh 42, Valena C. Jones, Phillis Wheatley, Lawless

Elementary, Mary D. Coghill, bus district of Mary Dora Cog-

hill, bus district of McDonogh 40, and bus district of Helen

S. Edwards, and bus district of Medard H. Nelson, and Johnson

| Lockett.

Now, counsel is not attacking the charge that

there is gerrymandering in this area, but as far as your

| outline of the districts is concerned, but apparently you are

trying to develop your charge here that busses could be made

more available to the areas where these colored people live,

| instead of msking them unavailable, and that that is the

| injustice, but that doesn't substantiate the claim of gerry-

245

mandering in itself.

MR. MORIAL: In addition to that, in our motion

for further relief, under "C" we allege that the defendants

have adopted and enforced school attendance areas which are

gerrymandered on a racial basis, and which will continue

the pattern of overcrowding in all Negro schools, and under-

utilization of the predominantly all-white schools.

THE COURT: When this Court ordered integration

of grades 1 and 2 and there was an opportunity given, and

you heard the testimony here to that effect, that an oppor-

tunity was given to the persons desiring, within a certain

zone, desiring to attend the schools of that zone, whether

it be white or whether it be black ~~ and I want you to listen

to me, Mr. Nabrit, and if you want to confer I will adjourn

Court and let you do it, but while 1 am speaking I would like

to have your attention, please =~

MR. NABRIT: 1I beg your pardon.

THE COURT: I will repeat this one more time,

because I think that this goes out of your case, and at the

time that this Court ordered the integration without regard

to race of grades 1 and 2, and ordered for the first time in

the history of this segregation suit, the elimination of the

dual school system in grades 1 and 2, an administrative pro-

cedure was established for the purpose of registering these

students. This procedure was designated to take place on

246

that by ==

certain particular days, at certain particular times. And,

in addition to that, there has been testimony adduced here

that following the transfer by some students from all-colored

to all-white, of all-Negro and all-white, the Board never-

theless in an abundance of caution and care, permitted trans-

fers, requests for transfers, to be filed in the fall after

the actual session of the school had begun. So that you not

only had a determinative time within which to make these

transfers, but you had the willingness of the Board to

cooperate with the judgment of this Court to voluntarily

accepting assignments after the '64 session had opened.

But now you are up here this morning complaining

about the crowding of these schools, these school areas,

and what the Court would like to know is why didn't you take

advantage of the period of time that you had to transfer,

both, on a specific registration date and subsequent? If

you were so interested in this gerrymandering that you allege,

you had a clear, concise ruling of this Court wherein at

least a certain amount of these overcrowded conditions could

have been, by your own actions, forestalled, and you wouldn't

be here today.

Now, is that true or not?

MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I would like to answer

THE COURT: I wanted to ask you these specific

247

W
w

questions, because I think that the Court has a right to

know the issues in this case. But, finally, Mr. Nabrit has

informed the Court that he is not interested in all the

speed that we have had here, but that that is gone, and that

we now have Gaines versus Dougherty, and that it doesn't

make any difference what the situation is in a given area,

administratively or otherwise, and that we are to go into

total integration. I don't believe that the Supreme Court

of the United States ever intended that, or I don't think

that this Circuit ever intended it.

So now I ask you the specific question as to

whether or not you took advantage of the privilege that

was accorded to you to change these registrations that you

are now complaining about?

MR, MORIAL: I think that the plaintiffs -=-

THE COURT: I am asking you that question.

MR, MORIAL: I am attempting to answer, your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, don't be evasive.

MR, MORIAL: I think that the plaintiffs did

intend to take advantage of that, but they had no knowledge

that these certain schools were overcrowded when they regis-

tered since the School Board has to process wherever the

student goes, and the principal, the principals are the ones

that register the students ==

THE COURT: Well, but you got a chance again this |

248

|| That is the question.

year ==

MR, MORIAL: Well, we intend to do something about

it this year.

THE COURT: But you didn't do it last year.

And this is the point in the case, that you didn't do what

you were supposed to do to protect yourselves actually.

MR, MORIAL: TI think that, in spite of the Court's

continued reference to the burden on us, the burden being on

the plaintiffs to have made a conscientious effort, I think

that the plaintiffs and the class they represent did make an

effort to the extent that they could to attend these schools

that were formerly all-white schools.

THE COURT: The Court feels that the School Board

has come in with a plan, and it was a plan that was ordered

by this Court in good faith, and a plan that the Court felt

that perhaps the city, the School Board, as well as the Negro

residents could live with; or the School Board came up with

a plan, more particularly, and it was subsequently approved,

with some amendments by this Court.

Now, what would you say if this plan, the full

adoption of it, or the full and complete, let us say, transfer:

which the mechanics of this plan call for, had been adhered

to, there wouldn't be the crowded conditions you have today.

In other words, every one of these areas where you

249

claim that they are crowded as to Negroes and whites, in so

far as the lst and 2nd grades are concerned, it is your own

fault that you didn't apply for transfers. Isn't that correct

And you have just told me that your -- I think that one of

these exhibits of the School Board indicated what they es~-

timated, what the estimated enrollment would be, unless they

were proven to the contrary, the one exhibit by the School

Board that you know, as a matter of good faith, that I re~-

quired the defendant School Board to reach down into the

bowels of their files and come up with their work paper

estimates, and which the School Board objected to doing.

But I did so order that a full and complete factual situation

would be before you. Now, this conjecture, and this is

conjecture, was that it ran over 1,000. And how many were

actually transferred? What was the actual number transferred?

MR. ROSENBERG: 199 in the first grade, and 133

the second.

THE COURT: And why didn't another few hundred,

perhaps, transfer from their overcrowded districts when they

had the opportunity to do it? That 1s my question.

MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, there is a multiplicity

of reasons why people did not transfer.

Now, when you have a person, or a group of people

that have been segregated for a century and there are inhi-

bitions and frustrations placed upon them for over 100 years

250

in their lives in a segregated commmity, where they have

been deprived of equal rights, they just don't rush in and

take advantage of their Constitutional rights. This is true

of all minorities in America, and it is evidenced through

the pages of history of each country. We don't expect all

of the Negroes, all of the 64,000, or 62,000 school-age

population, if you stated tomorrow or today, and issued an

order desegregating the entire school system on a single

zone, we wouldn't have fifty per cent of the people who would

be eligible going to those schools; it would take some time

for them to develop the attitude that would be necessary for

them to exercise their Constitutional rights.

THE COURT: Now, some of the Negro schools that

they attend -- isn't your brother a principal over at Carver?

MR. MORIAL: That is correct.

THE COURT: And that is one of the outstanding

schools in America.

MR, MORIAL: I don't know anything about its being

outstanding ==

THE COURT: Well, it has that reputation --

MR, MORIAL: There are educators who question the

wisdom of such a physical plant as that at Carver.

THE COURT: I only brought it up because I do think

‘that economically, you do get into that field, and you find

that there is and has been and is going to be more capital | Se L

251

expenditures dedicated to the elimination of these crowded

areas, and you will find school facilities that you find

now, but still that isn't the basic answer. I don't think

that you are going to get the basic answer by what you are

complaining of, since we had something here that through

my order you were afforded an opportunity to correct.

Go ahead.

MR, MORIAL: I would like to point out this one

reason for perhaps the failure of more pupils to take advan~-

tage of the opportunity was because the brothers and sisters

in upper grades were not afforded the right to transfer.

We are faced with this problem, and your Honor perhaps himself

has been faced with it, that if a family has more than one

child and they are of different ages, they would prefer to

send their children to the same school as much as possible,

particularly where the first and second grades are involved.

THE COURT: And, also, you have the problem of

meddling with the grouping, because if you've got a son who

is fifteen years old and he wants to go to McDonogh No. 6,

and he does not want to go to McDonogh No. 9 because maybe

the buildings and the yard may be smaller in this particular

school, or for other reasons, and you are not going to make

him happy by sending him across town to an all-white school.

And that is the reason 1 say that this Court did volumtarily

open this path for you, and I do appreciate the difficulties

252

| UB. S. Supreme Court.

| over backwards, and has tried always to go forward, and never

| integration problem is concerned.

that you would have because, as you have said, if this

Court were to order tomorrow every school integrated in this

city, the number of persons who would take advantage of it

would be relatively slight.

So what really -- it is really the right to go

that we are fighting about.

MR, MORIAL: That is correct. We think that all

children of all school ages should have an opportunity to,

during the course of their schooling, and we have the history

of this thing, since Brown, to attend a desegregated school.

This matter has been in litigation since '52, and under the

School Board's plans it will be 1973 or longer before all of

the schools will be desegregated. There are children in

school now, not alone the original plaintiffs, who were

never afforded the opportunity to attend a desegregated

school, but the intervenors themselves, and other children

who were in school, will never have the opportunity to

exercise their Constitutional rights as ennunciated by the

THE COURT: You and Mr. Touro have done a fine

job here in New Orleans in this situation, as related to

other areas in the South, and this Court has tried to bend

to take a step backward in this situation in so far as this

253

every step of the way in this situation, but where you have

But Mr. Nabrit makes it perfectly clear that he

is not willing to take that one step forward =-- he wants to

take forty steps forward. And when we take forty, then, Mr.

Nabrit --

MR, MORIAL: I feel compelled to make a statement

at this time, I think that we are not directly questioning

the good faith of the School Board, but I must say this,

that when the issue came up as to kindergarten the School

Board took the position that kindergarten hadn't been ordered

to be desegregated. We have Constitutional rights to attend

desegregated schools, and we want to cooperate with the Court

and with the School Board as much as possible. But why should

we always be compelled to cooperate when the School Board

reluctantly refuses to, even though that was already implicit

in your Honor's order as to the desegregation of kindergarten

in 1964-19652

| THE COURT: Well, I think you know the reason why.

I think that you know that we have to go out and ploneer

reached the top of the mountain, I don't gee why you are

starting down the other side, and that is what you, in the

Court's opinion, are doing in this case.

1 think that we have developed here a pretty good

working system, and I think that we have moved rapidly, more

rapidly than you think, and we might seek the 3rd grade this

254

year, or there might be many more that will decide to take

advantage of their right of transfer into a white school.

In fact, I am sure of this because of the Court's reasonable-

ness in holding this hearing way in advance of registration,

80 you can have an opportunity to protect yourself. And

that is the reason why 1 left the hospital in Boston to come

down here and hear the inde.

At the same time, I frankly feel that the way you

cooperate with the Court is to take advantage of the Court's

orders that have been issued, and you are trying to set

aside or not to permit the applicability of the Court's order.

I admit that it is not a definitive order, but this case

has got to come to an end sometime. And this is bound to

be it because, according to Mr. Nabrit, here, you are asking

for total integration of all of the schools, despite the

success you had in working under the Court's original order,

but we will then have a ruling on that, and you will have

an opportunity to appeal it, and we will find out whether or

not the Appellate Court means that in every circumstance

that administrative responsibility and speed are non-essential

considerations. 1 do not think that the Court is going to go

back on Brown versus Topeka to that extent in Civil Rights

cases. Now, I believe that we are me to have plenty of

litigation, besides the integration of the school system,

| and, in fact, the Court now has several cases which reflects

255

21]

the problem. But we have a decision here integrating the

hotels, and a decision here integrating some of the public

facilities, public buildings, and you have a three judge

decision in your favor integrating the Auditorium here from

this Court. So this Court has gone very far, and this is

getting into an area of policy-making, as far as you are

concerned; but, to me, I will go along with you on any

reasonable presentation to this Court, but I am not going to

go along on one, where I can see the School Board struggling

for every nickel that they get, and regardless of what you

may say about administrative responsibility, these things are

there, and in order to do it right, you've got to have capable

personnel, and capable teachers, and you've got to have the

capital improvements, and the buildings necessary to make it

go.

Well, that is all I have to say, and what you are

doing is what we did last year, and that was to try to show

racial irresponsibility on the part of the defendant School

Board, by cross examining the defendant's witnesses. And,

frankly, you haven't proved anything to the Court so far that

would justify this Court in taking this plan and destroying

it and substituting its own judgment. The Court does not

think that there has been an abuse of the administrative

functions vested in the Board. They have gone along in this

matter as expeditiously as they probably could.

256

W
w

25 I
|
£

Phir

Now, I do not want to drag this out four or five

more days and just make a voluminous record here, so let's

see if we cannot expedite this.

MR, MORIAL: I would like to say this: the plain-

tiffs are appreciative of the fact that the Court had to

perhaps cut short his period of convalescence so as to make

the judicial wachinery available to the plaintiffs for them

to have an opportunity to litigate their rights in this Court,

and we certainly appreciate that. But, at the same time,

we strongly feel that your Honor has a right and the obliga-

tion to judicially decide this issue, and so do we have the

right to attempt to advance our case and the litigation for

the interests of our clients.

THE COURT: Yes, but every lawsuit is entitled to

and must proceed under certain practices and rules of evi-

| dence which should be adhered to, and it has nothing to do

with whether I am hearing your case or not hearing your

| case, and it is just a question that I do not want all this

| eternal repetition of what has gone on before.

Now, the school plan was under attack before, and

it is under attack here again, and you are picking on these

isolated instances, and you are coming up with your map to

- show that there are these white schools next to the colored

| schools, and that the colored schools are full, and the

white schools are not full, or nearly empty. And, of course,

257

(4
% ]

there are, I assume, some white schools that are overcrowded

as well, and where those are I cannot specify, and it is

subject to proof, and I assume that it will be.

Go ahead.

MR. MORIAL: We are prepared to show more than

just the few that we have shown.

THE COURT: Well, I have seen the list in the

answers to the interrogatories, and is that the list that

you ==

MR, MORIAL: That is correct, plus additional

ones.

THE COURT: That is based on the proposition,

or in this issue you are basing your case on the proposition

that the Negro schools are overcrowded whereas the white

schools nearby are not? Isn't that your case?

MR, MORIAL: And the method in which the lines

were drawn, the witness has testified earlier that, as a

| matter of fact, there are natural boundaries and major thor-

| oughfares that, on which he bases the school zones to some

extent, and he has also testified that within the Negro

school zones, in some of the Negro school zones there are

major thoroughfares that the students have to cross, and
\

natural boundaries within the Negro attendance zones, and

| there are white schools adjacent thereby.

THE COURT: That there can be some discrimination
/

258

entering into the boundary line situation, that would not be

particularly appealing to the Court.

MR. MORIAL: But there is one reason, your Honor,

and that is why we wanted to get the ratio population maps.

THE COURT: The whole situation here, or the notion

that any effort could be exerted to make up a perfect set of

zones that did complete racial justice -- well, I don't

know. that that is possible. You have some situations here

in New Orleans where you have one block that is almost totally

Negro, and then the next block to it totally white. And

that is true of the greater part of New Orleans, and you've

got to draw some line someplace.

MR, MORIAL: I agree with the court on that.

THE COURT: Trying to draw those lines would be

just like trying to draw a caricature from Mars?

MR, MORIAL: TI agree with the Court on that, but

there is one example of it here that those lines are drawn

like a caricature, and that is at the Lewis School.

THE COURT: Proceed with your examination.

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q You have indicated on your base map, Dr. Fitz-

patrick, near the Mississippi River, and adjacent to Laurel-

McDonogh No. 1, and Lewis Schools, two bus zones apparently;

and where are those students bussed to? Which school?

A Those bus zones are from the St. Thomas Housing

259

Project, and one group is bussed to Howard No. 2, and the

other to McDonogh No. 7.

Q Where is Howard No. 2 located?

A At 3601 Camp Street, near the Touro Hospital,

to give you some idea of the location (indicating).

Q And both of the busses that are shown on that map

go to those schools?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where is McDonogh No. 7 located?

A At 1111 Milan Street.

THE COURT: The Court will take a five minute

recess.

(Short recess.)

(After recess.)

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR, MORIAL: We discussed with Mr. Rosenberg the

possibility of expediting the case from here on out; and,

with the Court's indulgence, we think that there is a possi-

bility that we might conclude this afternoon. Mr. Rosenberg

has indicated that he has no other witnesses.

Now, at this point he says that he has no questions

that he would ask under redirect examination, so if the Court

will permit now we have some exhibits that I showed to Mr.

Rosenberg during the recess, and he has no objection to these

exhibits being introduced.

Now, I think that this will greatly reduce the

testimony, and after that we would have to elicit from Dr.

Fitzpatrick =--

THE COURT: Were these the exhibits that were

shown to me that relate to the juxtaposition of the school

districts?

MR, MORIAL: No, these are simply capacity figures,

showing the capacities ==

MR. ROSENBERG: This would be subject, if your

Honor please, to the subsequent right of the defendants to

check the correctness of these figures. We have not checked

these, and I assume that they are correct.

MR, MORIAL: Certainly.

THE COURT: I understand,

MR, MORIAL: Counsel would offer, introduce and

file in evidence and marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit A, estimate

of white, 1964 ~~ this is Plaintiff's Exhibit A, which

shows the white junior highschools and the capacity enrollment

and whether they are over or under capacity.

The plaintiff files and marks 1964 Plaintiff

Exhibit B an estimate showing the Negro junior highschools

and the capacity and the enrollment figures, as well as the

over~capacity and under-capacity of these schools, junior

'highschools, and the senior highschools, with the same infor-

mation.

261

The plaintiffs file in evidence 1964 Plaintiff's

Exhibit C, listing of the Negro elementary schools showing

the schools, capacity and the enrollment for '63 and '64, and

whether the schools are over or under capacity.

The plaintiffs file and mark 1964 Plaintiff's

Exhibit D, a list showing the white elementary enrollment

indicating the school capacity and enrollment for '63-'64,

and whether these schools are under or over capacity.

THE COURT: Subject to the objection, the documents

are admitted.

(Whereupon, the documents above re-

ferred to, marked for identification

as Plaintiff's Exhibits A,B,C, and D,

were received in evidence.)

THE COURT: All right, let's proceed.

| BY MR, MORIAL:

Q Dr. Fitzpatrick, I show you a copy of what has

been introduced as 1964 OPSB-20, and ask you, does this plan

of construction indicate that there are five new secondary

| schools to be constructed in the next five years, and added

classrooms to five secondary schools in the next five years?

A Yes,

Q Now, Dr, Fitzpatrick, under the School Board's

present plan for desegregation of the schools, is it correct

that all these new schools, secondary schools that are planned

262

for the next five years, will be opened on a segregated

basis?

A Any elementary school that is completed will cer-

tainly go under a single-zone.

Q Now, these are secondary schools, and I ask you

about secondary schools?

A Yes ==

Q Which will be completed within the next five years?

Is that correct?

A Well, this is recommended for a five-year program,

and I am quite certain that we will not have funds available

for all of this construction,

Q But under the recommendations there, there are

certain secondary schools to be completed within the next

five years?

A That is correct.

Q Isn't it correct that all of these schools,

secondary schools, will open on a segregated basis because

of the School Board's long-term plan? The plan does not

affect these schools until 1968 as to 7th grade, and 1971 as

to the 10th grade?

A That would be correct, yes.

Q When a new school is plammed, or additional class-

rooms are planned, do you project an attendance area to be

» ; & 9

served By this new construction?

263

A A With regard to the elementary schools we had to

be more flexible with the secondary schools because of the

fluctuation in enrollment, density patterns, and things of

that nature.

Q Now, for each school that might have been or that

is recommended as to junior high and the highschools, when

was the determination as to the location of that school made?

A The location?

Q Yes?

A At the time we were able to get a school site,

that is what determines the location.

We usually check all or several sites which are

availab le, which are large enough for building a secondary

school, and weigh the advantages of the different school sites,

and from the standpoint of size, accessibility, and avail-

ability of utilities, water, sewerage, gas, and drainage

problems.

Q Taking all of that into consideration, could you

tell us when the sites for those schools indicated on that |

exhibit were decided upon?

A We don't have these sites -- that is another

problem. You will notice that there is money allotted for

sites here, except in some instances where a site has been

dedicated in a new subdivision ~- Behrman Heights, we show

"site" at $75,000.00, and that is merely for improvements

264

of the site, for some fill, or maybe sidewalks, or things

of that nature. But we don't have sites.

g + Q You don't have the specific sites, but you have

an area where these schools are recommended as a recommended

5 area for construction?

6 A That is correct, where there is no existing

7 secondary school,

8 Q And this area for construction is determined on

9 the basis of attendance areas and population and need for

10 schools in that area?

1 A On the basis of projected number at the secondary

12 level.

. 13 Q Could you tell us from this plan, construction or

14 recommended construction, the new highschools which perhaps

15 will be open before the end of 1977, those that you know

is || about at the present time?

17 A We have no funds for any of this construction.

18 Q But the Board did decide last night to place on

19 the ballot a bond proposal in the November election, did it

20 not?

21 A Well, for a twenty million bond issue, but we must

& 34 also pass a millage transfer to make possible the sale of

23 the first $10,000,000.00, a Constitutional amendment which

24 will be voted on statewide.

25 Q At the same time that the bond issue, the bond

265

25
i
|
{

| there be any new highschools open before the end of 1970-'71

on what priorities would be established.

plans for desegregation?

proposal is voted, isn't that correct?

A That is correct, at the November 3rd election.

Q If that bond issue is successful, and the Consti-

tutional amendment, then this recommended construction will

probably go forward to the extent that funds are available,

is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q The revenues from the bonds have been earmarked

for this construction that is recommended in OPSB~207?

A This is a tentative recommended program which has

been adopted by the School Board as a guide for future con-

struction. But the final decision is made when an architect

is recommended and a budget is established for the construction

of the school.

Q Now, if those recommendations materialize, will

school term?

A Yes, there would be two, possibly three, depending

Q If these schools were opened as recommended, they

would be segregated schools under the School Board's present

A Under the present plan, yes.

ja
e]

Q Does the present plan of the Board for desegregatioi

of schools propose any desegregation of special classes, to

266

your knowledge?

A Not to my knowledge, but in many cases those are

children who are at the lower level, who are in need of

special instruction, assigned to those classes, and something

that is handled through our division of instruction, based

on the need of the particular children in a school.

Q Are these ungraded classes?

A Yes.

Q So, is it your testimony that the School Board's

plan for desegregation of the schools makes no provision for

the desegregation of the special classes?

A Not to my knowledge. Not specifically, let's say.

Q Has your Department of the Board, to your knowledge

taken any steps to prepare for applying single zones to the

4th and 5th grades in September of 19647

A No.

Registration is for incoming students, and new

students coming into those grades, and pupils who will be

permitted to register on the 8th and 9th of September, our

usual registration period for all grades, with desegregation

plans for lst, 2nd, and 3rd.

Q Now, as an expert in the census and planning, and

one who has been in the school system for a long number of

years, the program wherein parents have some choice in attend-

| ing schools under the single-zone, is a good practice, would

267

information is complete and accurate, assignment certificates

you say? In other words, the present plan that the School

Board has for freedom of choice, is that a good and sound

concept in the school administration?

A I would say yes.

Q And this was not done in the past, however, was it?

A Well, with separate zones, we have had the same

policy followed -- parents desiring their children to attend

certain schools for many reasons --

Q Students are not forced to attend the school in

their zone?

A In some instances it may be required, on a tempo-

rary basis especially, unless we can get our enrollment fig-

ures -- some of the requests have been withheld -=- but in

just about every case they are able to grant those permits.

Most of them have already been acted upon.

0 Presently, no initial assignment is made of 1st

and 2nd grades, is it? I mean initial ssslipumnts to a school

within a zone, residence zone or tenant zone?

A Assignments are made on the basis of applications

for assignments, filled out by the parents or guardian, pro-

cessed by the principal of the school and forwarded to the

administrative office. And, after checking to see that the

are prepared from thos applications.

Q Is the principal compelled to register a student who

268

} i 4

24 | elementary schools affected by the single-zone system have

| any instructions to the effect that they should state to

comes to his school regardless of where that student resides?

A Those are the instructions that were given out

in the registration procedure,

Q The registration procedure has not directed the

principal to instruct these persons when they came to these

schools if they resided in other zones, that they should run

to that zone and seek admission?

A No, the instructions are, that is, pupils who

reside in other zones, the parents or guardian and in addition

to filling out an application for assignment, also fills out

an application for a permit.

Q Are the parents, when they seek these applications

for transfer or permits to attend the school outside of their

zones, are they informed that the school they seek to attend

is an overcrowded school, where overcrowding does exist?

A I wouldn't know for a fact, but I know in some

instances that has been done, and children have been referred

either by the principal or others to another school.

Q But does the registration procedure coming from

the School Board's office direct principals to so inform

applicants for transfer?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q To your knowledge do Negro principals in overcrowde

269

these persons that they should go to other schools or en-

courage them to attend the other schools?

A Not to my knowledge, but those meetings are held

in the division of administration, and I do not attend those

meetings with the principals.

Q Do you think that under the free choice system

parents should have the right to enroll their children in any

school on the basis of any objectives or whims they might

have, to enroll their children in a certain school?

For example, because of the teachers in that

school, because of the race of the teachers in that school?

A Well, the reason for granting of permits has been

listed in the instructions for registration, and those are

the ones that are considered in acting upon the permit, the

request for permit to a school out of the district.

Q Isn't this procedure somewhat flexible also?

A Well, it is -- administrative judgment is used

in determining whether or not the permit shall be granted,

and finally approved by the superintendent.

Q In the criterion for transferring, for the granting

of permits, there is listed here as one "...to allow a child

to attend a school which in the judgment of the administrative
|

staff is within the best interests of the child."

| Now, would it be in the best interests of the
|
child for him to attend the school staffed by Negro teachers,

270

(#
3)

as an administrative determination, do you think?

A That would depend upon the particular case.

Q 1f this were one of the reasons that a parent

gives as requesting a transfer or permit, would this be one

of the factors that would be considered by the administrative

staff in making the decision?

A As I recall, any request for a permit which indi-

cated the reason of race, was denied.

Q That would include the racial identity of the

faculty in a school?

A To attend a white school or to attend a Negro

school -= J do know for a fact that these were returned to

those parents, and they were returned to those people, these

permits, and were denied in the past.

J Dr. Fitzpatrick, I show you what has been intro-

duced and marked as 1964 OPSB~-22, and ask you to review that

for a minute, please.

| Does that indicate the number of Negro children

| on the waiting list for kindergarten?

| A No, sir, it does not.

Q During the past ten years has there been a sub-

stantial number of Negroes on the waiting list for kindergar-

| ten?

| A Yes.
|
| Q Approximately what would you estimate has been the

271

1 number each year? Do you know?

2 A I don't recall.

3 Q Is it, the number of Negroes on the waiting list

for kindergarten, larger than the number of whites on the

waiting list?

6 A Yes,

7 Q Sometimes there have been large numbers of Negroes

and no whites on the waiting list? Do you remember that?

A Will you repeat your question?

ia Q Do you know if it has ever existed that there

Li have been Negroes on the waiting list and no whites on the

12 waiting list to attend kindergarten?

| ® 13 A If memory serves me correct, we have been able to

14 ldiminate waiting lists at many schools, and the waiting lists

would be in many of our overcrowded neighborhoods where we

16 llhad a lack of classroom facilities, and most of those neigh-

17 || borhood schools being Negro.

18 Q To be clear, now, is it your testimony that there

19 has existed a large number of Negroes waiting to be admitted

20 to kindergarten, and there have been small numbers of sometimes

21 no whites in relation to the number of Negroes waiting to be

@ 22 | admitted?

23 A That is correct, and by "large numbers" I would

24 | say a few hundred perhaps, perhaps 300, 400 -- I don't recall

25 the exact figure.

272

25
{
|
Be

Q And in relation to what number of whites?

A Well, at the beginning of the year it might be

75 or 100, but during the year we find that parents take

their children out of kindergarten, and it is too much

trouble to take them for a halfday perhaps, or some other

reason, or moving out, and these children on the waiting list

move in. And in many cases the kindergarten waiting list is

eliminated during the school year.

Q Would you know from your experience and from the

information that you have as to whether or not, or as to what

extent, perhaps, the practice is that younger children attend

school together with older children in the same family?

A Well, yes, that is correct =--

Q Is it the practice that in many situations parents

request this situation, where it normally may not exist, if

such a situation were to arise?

In other words, do parents seek this, as a practice

to send their children to school together?

A I have seen some permit requests which indicate

that is the reason to attend the school, not only with other

members of the family, but also friends.

Q Would you say the reason for this is so that there

will be an older child to oversee the younger child in the

same family, if they are in the same school together?

A That would be one of the reasons, ves.

273

Q Doctor, do you know how soon you will be able to

provide us with a dual-zone map for 1964-'657

A I would hope that next month we should have them

completed; we have had a vacation schedule, and other pro-

jects that we have been working on, and it has been necessary

to postpone the completion of them.

Q Do you know when maps will be available showing

the racial identity of the public school students as to atten=-

dance districts?

A A purchase order has already been issued, and 1

have been waiting on action of this Court to determine what

grades we should indicate on the maps for the attendance

districts, and they all have to be printed at one time, the

type of process that has been bid on.

Q Am 1 correct to assume ==

A I would say that we hope to have it before the

opening of school.

Q What I am asking for is the map showing the racial

identity of the students who live in the various school

attendance districts? Do you have such?

A The actual survey maps, we are still working on

them, some 101,000 children plus that we are trying to plot.

But we have been busy on other projects and weren't able to

complete it as yet.

Q Is this what you referred to as a survey?

274

A Residence survey map.

Q And you state that you are waiting for an order

from this Court in order that you may plot that?

A No. I thought you were referring to the maps

that we distribute showing the zones, that was the map I

was referring to.

Q They are the survey maps?

A No, I was referring to the district maps, the

dual-zone maps as well as the single-zone maps for elementary,

junior high, and senior high.

Q Well, are the residence attendance district maps

| available?

A They have not been completed as yet.

Q How soon will these be complete?

A As I stated before, I expect a month, possibly

longer == it depends upon how much other work comes out with

regard to the registration and assignment of pupils, because

the same clerks who work on these projects also are involved

in census and child accounting, and assignment of children.

Q Are those maps usually printed? Do you usually

make maps on ==

A No, these are base maps, and they are dot maps,

and they are usually referred to in school administration.

One thing that we did was plot the children in the housing

projects. We were able to get that information as a special

275

| t

| 12

| 2 13

| 14

3 22

| 23

study.

Q We would like, if possible, for you to make that

information available to us from your base map, from your

work maps, so that we can plot it?

A It will be available in my office; in fact, the

same type of maps were shown to you in a conference held

last May.

THE COURT: I think you ought to go to the office

and get that information.

MR, MORIAL: That is what I want to find out; I

want to find out if he knows exactly when they are available,

and all we would like to do is make copies, if possible, for

our personal use,

BY MR, MORIAL:

Q When you refer to as "last May" you meant May of

'63, and not May of '647?

A May of '63 I was referring to.

Q Dr. Fitzpatrick, I show you here a document which

is purported to have been prepared by you showing the white

elementary schools for 1963 -'64, and is this a document

that was prepared by you?

A This is the document referred to in the earlier

(testimony showing the number of eligible Negro pupils esti-

mated for the 1st grade and 2nd grade, which broke down the

neighborhood school areas as well as the bus areas coming into

276

the schools.

MR, MORIAL: Counsel would like to offer, intro-

duce and file in evidence and mark it 1964 P Exhibit E,

together with the letter of transmittal marking it 1964 P

Exhibit F,

And we tender the witness for redirect,

(Whereupon, the documents above re

ferred to, marked for identificati

as 1964 P Exhibit E and 1964 P

Exhibit F, were received in eviden

witness.

THE COURT: You may be excused, sir,

Thank you for coming here today.

Mik, ROSENBERG: May it please the Court, I would

| and I mark same for identification 1964 OPSB-25, being a
copy of the form of letter which the Superintendent sent to

| all of the parents of children who had applied to be admitt

| in the lst grade in 1960 and "61, and who were and who did

not pass the pupil placement procedure and in compliance

| with the orders of court, or, rather, the letter being sent

out in compliance with the orders of court of last year.

MR. NABRIT: Before we leave that letter, in ord

ce.

MR. ROSENBERG: I have no questions to ask of this

| like to offer, introduce and file in evidence a last exhibit,

that the record might be clear, I wonder if we could have this

277

further identified as to the date this was sent out. This

was sent out in the summer of 1963, is that correct?

MR. ROSENBERG: Do you have the date?

THE WITNESS: Well, I have here the =--

MR. NABRIT: All I am interested in is the year.

MR, ROSENBERG: It was in the summer of 1963,

July 22nd, 1963.

MR, NABRIT: And this was addressed to the children

who were referred to in the court order of May 17, 19637

Isn't that correct?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sent out to the parents of

all the children who applied to attend the lst grade in 1960

and 1961, and who were not admitted to formerly all-white

schools; those children, in '63, being in the 3rd and 4th grad

MR, NABRIT: Thank you.

THE COURT: And they would be entitled to take

advantage of that, that is, they would be entitled, they

would be able to take advantage of this registration at that

time?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir, and they were so notified

in that letter.

THE COURT: I thought they would be in the 4th and

5th grade ~- if they originally registered in '60 --

MR. ROSENBERG: They will be in the 4th and 5th

grade in September of '64.

278

THE COURT: That is what I mean, this fall, they

would be in the 4th and 5th grades?

MR. ROSENBERG: Yes, sir.

But last year, in '63, they were entering the 3rd

and 4th grades.

THE COURT: And what you are stipulating with the

defendant is that you will agree to re-establishment of the

efficacy of that order as to those that did not take advantage

of this previously?

MR, ROSENBERG: That is not what I said; I have

an open mind on the subject, and all this is, Your Honor,

at the time Mr. Dean testified yesterday as to what was done

last summer, we did not have available a copy of the actual

letter which was sent out last year in compliance with the cou

orders, with the court's orders of last year. And I am now

simply supplying that deficiency by introducing that letter.

With that, may it please the Court, we rest.

(Whereupon, the document above re-

ferred to, marked for identification

as 1964 OPSB~-25, was received in

evidence.)

MR, NABRIT: I think we may be able to rest if

you will give us just a moment to look at our note papers.

THE COURT: Surely.

MR, NABRIT: May it please the Court, I would like

279

to remind your Honor about an exhibit in last year's trial,

that is, the base map of the actual streets, and I don't

think that there is any question about where Canal Street is,

the River, the parks, and so forth, since that is already in

the record, but =-

THE COURT: Suppose the Court went into this and

you would be absent from the city, and the Court -- well,

your assoclate counsel would be here, and we could see whether

or not there exists any corrections in the periphery of

these districts that could be worked out to prevent any

inequity geeurring as a result of the overiap of the major

highways, and the feasibility of doing that is not now known

to the Court, and it would certainly -- and the Court would

like to stress here, that the complainants have appealed to

the Court, and a reasonable study should be made to see if

there couldn't be some adjustments made, and that sort of

thing.

The Court is going to issue an order that in view

of the evidence, both oral and documentary submit ted to this

Court on May 17, 1963, or, during the period of time which

included May 17, and lasted several days, and the Court con-

cluded that the New Orleans School Board should have one year

in which to prepare for integration of the kindergarten; and

that year now having elapsed, and the kindergarten matter

being an integral part of this particular presentation, the

280

grade in conformity with the previous ruling made in this

Court is going to order the integration of the kindergarten

lengthy litigation.

And as to the balance of the case, the Court will

now fix this case for argument in this Court at 10:00 AM

on Tuesday, August 18. And, at that time, the Court will

suggest that counsel furnish the Court with an abbreviated

findings of fact and conclusions of law ~~ I do not expect it

to be long, and I do expect it to be short and to the point.

MR, MORIAL: Your Honor, you indicated that you

were going to issue a formal order on the question of the

kindergarten desegregation? How soon will it be?

THE COURT: Under the new procedural system, the

formal order is drafted by the lawyers, and I will have a

formal order because I want this to be clear, and we will

draw that tomorrow, and file it, and that will start the

tolling of the time.

MR. ROSENBERG: I am sorry, but I didn't follow

your Honor -=-

THE COURT: 1I say that now, under the rules that

were adopted actually last year, in July, the clerk draws

the formal judgment and that marks the beginning of the delays

for rehearings and appeal of the Court's order.

I would like very much, the day before this case

is set for argument, if possible, that there be some discussion

281

W
w

between the parties on the Monday before that date, if at

all possible, to attempt to see if there is not some area

here where further adjustment can be reached.

MR. MORIAL: I won't be present on the 17th or

18th, and Mr. Nabrit will be joined by local counsel, Mr.

Trudeau, who is on the record as counsel in the original

pleadings in this case.

THE COURT: Well, the Court will now be at recess.

(Whereupon, court recessed.)

282

{g
'

jo
i

fe
a

La
t

fr
ed

Li
mi

{
)

i
>

Je
d

Te
s

The undersigned certifies, in his capacity

of Official Court Reporter for the United States

District Court, Eastern District of Louisiana,

the foregoing to be a true and correct transcrip=-

tion of his Stenograph notes taken during the

proceedings in the above-numbered and titled

case, on the 10th day of August, 1964.

New Orleans, Louisiana, this 16th day of

April, 1965.

F { \ of a

Vidal G. Apodaca
Official Court Reporter
U. SS. District Court

Telephone TAylor 9-4700

No. 41660
CITY SALES

DEPT. Naf O Na Wholesale
841 W. Jackson Blvd. a Tai | 0 rl N § Co Custom Tailors

CHICAGO 7, ILL. 833-841 W. JACKSON “BLVD. : A;
CHICAGO 7, ILLINOIS Dato \ / at Lo

3 \

Sold to IR A. a RD WE wh

JAddress HIG BR iARWOOYD - AGirticN PEIGTS |
: Quantity
w

Amount

ry py +7

Na A “Srl Pe ay

Salesman mt Sn or ~7- —
Zz

Copyright notice

This collection and the tools to navigate it (the “Collection”) are available to the public for general educational and research purposes, as well as to preserve and contextualize the history of the content and materials it contains (the “Materials”). Like other archival collections, such as those found in libraries, LDF owns the physical source Materials that have been digitized for the Collection; however, LDF does not own the underlying copyright or other rights in all items and there are limits on how you can use the Materials. By accessing and using the Material, you acknowledge your agreement to the Terms. If you do not agree, please do not use the Materials.

Additional info

To the extent that LDF includes information about the Materials’ origins or ownership or provides summaries or transcripts of original source Materials, LDF does not warrant or guarantee the accuracy of such information, transcripts or summaries, and shall not be responsible for any inaccuracies.

Trial Transcript 4

Impact area

Topic

LDF Attorneys

Cooperating Attorneys

Organization

Matter

Case

U.S. state

Collection

Taxonomy

Identifier

Cite this item

Copyright notice

Additional info

You may also be interested in