Scott v Winston Salem Board of Education Appendix
Public Court Documents
August 23, 1970
571 pages
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Scott v Winston Salem Board of Education Appendix, 1970. ef399cce-c39a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/f2d1f53f-5005-440c-a957-ca52c367f35a/scott-v-winston-salem-board-of-education-appendix. Accessed November 23, 2025.
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Volume III
In The
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
Nos. 15,185, 15,186, 15,187, 15,188
CATHERINE SCOTT, et al.,
Appellants,
v.
WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY
BOARD OF EDUCATION, et al..
Appellees.
Appeal From The United States District Court For The
Middle District Of North Carolina
APPENDIX
J. LeVONNE CHAMBERS
ADAM STEIN
CHAMBERS, STEIN, FERGUSON & LANNING
216 West Tenth Street
Charlotte, North Carolina 28202
CONRAD O. PEARSON
203-1/2 East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina 27702
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Appellants
INDEX
Volume I
Page
Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint ................................... 3
Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education ................................... 18
Further Answer of Defendant, Winston-Salem/
Forysth County Board of Education ............................ 23
Answer of Defendant, Board of County Commissioners
of Forsyth County .............................................. 25
Motion to Dismiss of Defendant, Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County ................................ 28
Memorandum in Support of Defendant's Motion to
Dismiss ...................................................... 29
Answer of Defendants North Carolina State Board of
Education and Dr, A. Craig Phillips .......................... 30
Motions to Dismiss and For Summary Judgment of
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. Charles F. Carroll ................................... 34
Memorandum Brief in Support of Motions ....................... 4-1
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendants' Motion to
Dismiss and Motions for Summary Judgment ..................... 46
Memorandum ................................................... ^4
Order, Filed June 9, 1969 .................................... ^8
Order, Filed August 5, 1969 .................................. 82
Plaintiffs' Motion for Preliminary Injunction ................ 65
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response to Motion .................................. 67
Memorandum in Support of Response ............................ 69
i
Page
Defendants State Board of Education and the
Superintendent of Public Instruction's Response to Motion ..................
Interim Order, Filed January 12, 1970
Order, Filed January 19, 1970
Motion For Summary Judgment of Defendant Board of
County Commissioners of Forsyth County
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County's Motion For
Summary Judgment ..............
70
72
75
77
78
Memorandum 81
Memorandum and Order, Filed February 17, 1970
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal ..........
Memorandum .................
Plaintiffs' Objections to Defendants' Plan of
Desegregation ....................
Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time
For Docketing Case on Appeal ..........
95
97
101
Order, Filed March 26, 1970 ...........
Plaintiffs' Motion For Extension of Time
To Docket Record on Appeal ..........
103
104
Memorandum and Order, Filed June 25, 1970
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal ...........
Plaintiffs' Motion For Further Extension of Time
to Docket Record on Appeal ..........
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Report and Motion ............
Order, Filed July 17, 1970 .............
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Notice of Appeal .........
107
205
206
209
231
234
ii
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Notice of Motion ............................. 236
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education's Report and Motion ............................ 237
Plaintiffs' Response to Defendant's Report and Motion ....... 255
Plaintiffs' Motion to Add Additional Parties-
Defendant ................................................... 259
Preliminary Response of Defendant Board of County
Commissioners of Forsyth County ............................. 261
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Reply to Motion to
Add Additional Parties-Defendant ............................ 262
Order, Filed August 17, 1970 ................................ 267
Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education's Notice of Appeal ................................ 269
Plaintiffs' Notice of Appeal ................................ 271
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education
and Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Motion to Strike Out
Order Adding Additional Parties-Defendant ................... 272
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Response and Motion ................................ 275
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Brief in Support of Response and Motion ............ 277
Plaintiffs' Reply to Motions of the Defendants Board
of County Commissioners of Forsyth County, North Carolina
State Board of Education and Dr. A. Craig Phillips,
State Superintendent of Public Instruction .................. 285
Order, Filed September 15, 1970 ............................. 293
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal ................................... 296
Defendant Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County's Notice of Appeal ................................... 297
Defendants North Carolina State Board of Education and
Dr. A. Craig Phillips' Notice of Appeal ..................... 298
Page
iii
Page
Interrogatories of Plaintiffs, to Defendant Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County Hoard of Education and Defendant's Answers
InterrogatorLes o i hoard ot County Commissioners to
Plaintiffs and Plaintiffs' Answers ...........
Stipulation .........................
Plaintiffs' Interrogatories to Defendant and
Defendant's Answers ........
299
328
336
338
Exhibits
School Board Members By Race, 1959-1969 and 1969-1970
School Board Policy With Respect to Non-Discrimination
Summary of Special Programs in the Wrinston-Salem/
Forsyth County School System ......................
Special Programs in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County School System .....................
School Building Capacity ................... ...
Notice of Assignment Policy and Application for Transfer
School Board Regulation No. Ulll ................
School Board Policy No. 1/L15 .............
School Board Policy No. U l2 3 ...............
Adminisrrative Regulation No. Ul23 .................
McGuffey's Short Range Plan ..................
35U
355
356
368
373
378
382
38U
386
387
388
Trial Transcript
Hearing of January 9, 1970 ..........
Volume II
Hearing of January 9, 1970 continued .
Volume III
U25
676
1301
17U7
Hearing of April 16, 1970
Hearing of July 17, 1970 .
Hearing of August 11, 1970
IV
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
WINSTON-SALEM DIVISION
C-174-Y/S-68
CATHERINE SCOTT, et als,
Plaintiffs
vs.
WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY
BOARD OF EDUCATION, et als,
Defendants
FINAL HEARING
VOLUME I OF II 1
Pages 1 - 189
The above-styled case was heard in the United States Court
room, Post Office Building, Winston-Salem, North Carolina,
commencing at 9:30 a.m. on the 16th day of April, 1970.
HONORABLE EUGENE A. GORDON, PRESIDING
APPEARANCES
For the Plaintiffs:
JULIUS LE VONNE CHAMBERS, Esq.
For the Defendants:
W. F. WQMBLE, Esq.
JOHN L. W. GARROU, Esq.
RODDEY M. LIGON, JR., Esq.
P. EUGENE PRICE, JR., Esq.
BURLEY 3. MITCHELL, JR., Esq.
RALPH MOODY, Esq.
Graham Erlacher, Official Court Reporter
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURTj Gentlemen, the matter for hearing ia
Scott and others versus Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education and others. Are there motions or matters that
we should consider and discuss before we proceed with the
evidence in the matter? What says the plaintiff, Mr.
Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't know of any
motions that are pending. I received of Mr. Womble a copy
of the proposed pretrial order.
THE COURT: Yes, they left a copy with my secre
tary during the day, and I haven't had an opportunity to
read through that.
MR. MOODY: May it please the Court, the Court is
aware that we have a motion to dismiss as to the State
defendants, and a motion for summary Judgment. I assume
Your Honor is not touching those?
THE COURT: No. I believe I denied the motion
before, perhaps without prejudice to your right to renew.
MR. MOODY: Yes, sir.
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, if I may, on page 14 of
the pretrial order, number 21, "There are no pending motions
and neither party desires further amendments to their
pleadings except motions by the defendant."
THE COURT: Mr. Price, refer to that in summary
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so that we can get it on the record. I know what you're
talking about. You're referring to what section?
I®-. PRICE: Number 21; item 21 of the pretrial
order, on page 14, which in effect merely reserves to the
Board of County Commissioners and the State Associate the
opportunity to renew their motion for summary Judgment.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, for the record I would
point out that there was a subsequent order, and that was
the initial pretrial order, but there was a subsequent
order entered in February, as I recall, that motions of
both the state and the county—
MR. PRICE: What did this order say? I'm sorry;
I didn't understand you.
ME. CHAMBERS: I gather that the order that you
are reading from, as I recall, was the initial pretrial
order.
MR. PRICE: This is the order on final pretrial
conference submitted.
I®. CHAMBERS: Did you say page 21?
MR. PRICE: Page 14, item number 21.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have that.
MR. PRICE: All right.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I don't believe you have
concluded, perhaps?
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MR. MOODY: Yes, sir, I have. I was just going
to ask him does he contend that there was a previous final
order in the matter?
lilt. CHAMBERS: I gathered throughout the ruling
that the Court permitted either party to make motion_ to
let parties make motions to dismiss.
MR. MOODY: That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think we should proceed. If you
are renewing those motions, and I take it you are, I want
us to proceed on the basis that those motions are denied.
I am not formally denying them now, but I will consider
them; but I caution you to proceed on the basis that the
motions are denied. And when I make a final decision about
it, I will reckon with a final order with reference to
those motions. I take it, Mr. Moody, that if the plaintiffs
can prove what they allege in this - that there is a genuine
issue with reference to the State - I take it the same way
with reference to the County - it is a matter of debate.
This is here for a hearing on the merits and final decision.
The other hearing was on the matter of the preliminary
injunction and on the matter of those motions.
MR. MOODY: Just solely for consideration at this
hearing, I take it.
THE COURT: That's right. Mr. Womble, my inquiry
was is there any matter or matters that should be discussed
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before we proceed? I believe I've heard from everybody but
you.
MR. WOMBLE: Some of the confusion we were
involved in here after bringing all the stuff we did bring,
I think we left one of the things we needed first and John
has gone back for it. There will be an order that will
formalize the Court's ruling with respect to interrogatory
number 6? I don't believe that any written order has been
entered on that. Unless one has already been entered, we
have a proposed order that will formalize the Court's
ruling with respect to interrogatory number 6 which was
heard last week.
THE COURTx All right.
MR. WOMBLEs Then with respect to the order on
pretrial conference, as you know we were somewhat short in
our time with this because of the effort of all parties to
be ready for hearing on the 16th, and we had our get-
together among the attorneys only last Friday, I believe;
it was February 10th. And between then and a couple of days
ago, we put together an order on final pretrial conference
that we hoped would cover everything and be in accord with
the agreement, the understanding of the parties. We have
not actually had an opportunity to be together since this
was put together. In other words, it was done and a copy
delivered to the Court yesterday morning.
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THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOMBLE: And. copies were put in the mail from
our office to counsel for the other parties Tuesday night.
So as I understand it, they all have copies now, but we
have not had a chance to check with each other as to whether
or not it is complete and accurate. And there is one
thing, for example, that I call the Court's attention to,
on page 10, paragraph 7, the list of additional exhibits,
plaintiffs, that they offered at the trial. At the time
of our meeting on the 10th, we did not have the plan of
desegregation prepared by Dr. Larsen; that was sent to us
and we received it on Tuesday afternoon of this week. I
understand that Dr. Larsen was under a time press himself
and he expedited his work as much as he could, and this was
sent out over the weekend. And we got it from Charlotte
on Tuesday afternoon. Paragraph C, the plan of desegrega
tion prepared by Dr. Carroll McGuffey. We were not fur
nished at the pretrial conference a copy of what plaintiffs
had in mind there, and we assumed that what they had in
mind was the complete plan of Dr. McGuffey, which was a
short-range plan and a long-range plan. The one that we
have is a final form, whereas the one that Mr. Chambers
has shown me this morning is not the final but it is one -
there is no material difference; I think it is the same as
the final with only very minor exceptions - and Mr. Chambers
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appears to have only the so-called short-range plan and not
the long-range plan. So it would be our suggestion that
if he does not have a copy of both the short and long-range
plans that we get copies of those to him, and assume that
what he is going to put into evidence is the whole thing.
And if he takes any exception to that, then we can see how
we could work it out, as to whether or not we would put it
in.
THE COURT: All right. I realize that by reason
of time, that this matter is being called without the
opportunity to follow the usual procedures and methods «nd
pretrial that we customarily follow, which we think pro
cedures that are outlined in our rules are beneficial and
serve to conserve time of the litigants and the Court and
counsel. But I am most anxious that this matter proceed
so that I can make some decision whereby the parties - a
party can appeal it and have the matter determined before
school starts next September. I have two days here that I
can work with you on it, and then I start a two-week term
in Wilkesboro. So I don't know what is before us by way of
the time that it will take to hear it now. But we will Just
have to do the best we can. And often I find that maybe a
conference between the attorneys will serve to shorten and
expedite the matter, and if we should come to that point
during any period, let me know and I would be most anxious
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to do anything that we can to conclude this matter as soon
as we can. And oftentime, whereby the attorneys discuss
the matter, it serves to shorten the time that is required
in open court.
MR. WOMBLE; Thank you, sir. Moving on down with
reference to this same paragraph 7 in the proposed order,
we come to paragraph (d), which refers to the Board of
Aldermen of the City, page 355, about 1921. We were not
furnished a copy of that at the meeting. Mr. Stein was
present as counsel for the plaintiff and said he would get
one to us as soon as he could, and I am sure that the
present activities in his own office have resulted in their
not being able to get one to us. Now, Mr. Chambers has
this in court this morning. We have not had a chance to
look at it, but possibly one of the clerks in your office
could make copies for us and other counsel, the other
defendants, so that we would all have a copy now.
THE COURT: All right. We can get that done. It
looks like it's a long sheet.
MR. WOMBLE: It will probably have to be done a
couple times and pieced together.
THE COURT: All right. Mrs. Thomas, would you
take that back and get Mr. Tilley to work on that? How
many copies, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Four copies would be sufficient. And
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then item 8, the monthly bus reports for September, November
and February; these had not been called for prior to our
meeting on the 10th, so we did not have them available for
the plaintiffs’ attorneys at that time* We have since
furnished them without any formal motion or interrogatory
and have given them copies of that in court this morning.
The reason I bring that to the attention of the
Court is that the next paragraph 8 stipulates that counsel
have been furnished with a copy of each exhibit identified
by the plaintiffs, and that’s routine in these orders, but
because of the time situation, it isn’t quite accurate.
THE COURT: I don’t believe the copy that was left
in our office, and which I have here before me, is not a
copy of the final pretrial order that I am to sign to make
a part of the record, is it, or not?
MR. V/OMBLE: I think it is the only one; I think
it is the most final one we have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I see.
MR. WOMBLE: It is pieced together with typing
and Xeroxing, part typing, and that sort of thing.
THE COURT: Do you have an extra copy of it? I
thought I might need to write on the one I have. If you
don't, it’s all right. If one of you have a copy that you’re
not going to write on, we can duplicate that. But I might
have the need to write on this one.
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MR. MOODY: We will give Your Honor this copy
and we can share this one.
THE COURT: Let me do this* Let me sign this
as the original, and for your use at the moment, if you
will take it - that is, the file copy and you can mark it
"file" - and I will have this one that I can mark up.
MR. MOODY: Do we keep this one?
THE COURT: I'm going to give you this one back.
No; I will get you a copy.
MR. MOODY: In the meantime we just keep this one?
THE COURT: Keep that one for your use there.
MR. MOODY: Then give it back to the Court?
THE COURT: Right.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'd like to point out
one thing. We took the deposition of Mr. John L. Lewis on
April 6th, 1970, and we did not know at the time of the
final pretrial conference from counsel whether we wanted to
introduce that deposition. It is not listed as an item,
but we would like to have the final pretrial order amended
to show that we would like to introduce that deposition.
THE COURT: That is of Mr. Lewis?
MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. John L. Lewis.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes. We had discussed that with Mr.
Stein and he advised us that they would not put it into
evidence.
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MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Stein had not read It at the
time the final pretrial conference was held on April the
10th, I believe, and I received tills, I think, from the
reporter that day. Mr. Stein was in Winston-Salem at that
time. I read the deposition over the weekend and I would
like to tender it in evidence. I point out that all of the
parties were notified - Mr. Vomble and counsel for the
state and counsel for the county commission were present
at the time of the taking of this deposition.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I'd be inclined to let it
in but with reservation if there was something in there
that you need some witness or someone to testify in rebuttal
or in connection with what that deposition i3 concerned
with, I will give you an opportunity to do it.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, sir. Of course the deposi
tion was taken subject to objections to any part of it
being offered at the trial, and in view of our understanding
that the deposition would not be offered into evidence,
we could not— going back through it with the idea of
determining what if any parts of it we would wish to object
to, but subject to the understanding that we still have
that opportunity, we have no objection to the amendment of
the order.
THE COURT: All right. Accordingly, let the
record show that the final pretrial order is amended to
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reflect that the deposition of John L. Lewis_
MR. CHAMBERS: John L, Lewis, Jr.
THE COURT: May be received into the evidence,
and that counsel for the defendants may object to such
parts, if any, as they desire to object to when the deposi
tion is offered in evidence. All right. I believe then
we are ready for your evidence, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: I would like to tender in evidence -
to identify as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 the answers to the
interrogatories of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School
Board, dated April 10, 1970.
MR. MOODY: If it please Your Honor, I won't
object to all the development of the evidence and so forth.
Is it possible that the State defendants can have a general
objection to this?
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, are you fixing now to
introduce a number of exhibits?
MR. CHAMBERS: Not at this stage, Your Honor. I
just wanted to identify and to introduce this particular
set of interrogatories.
THE COURT: All right. I would do that if he had
a long list of exhibits. It will not irritate me for you
to make your formal objections as they come up, and if he
comes to a long list of exhibits, we will install the rule
that you are objecting. Is there objection to this exhibit
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by the other defendants?
MR. WOMBLE: Do we understand that this is the
answer to a number of interrogatories?
MR. CnAMBERS: The answer to the interrogatories
that we propounded on July 23rd, 1969 and that you answered
under date April 10, 1970.
MR. WOMBLE: You're offering that as one exhibit?
MR. CHAMBERS: One exhibit.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that
Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1 is received into the evidence and
that counsel for—
MR. WOMBLE: Would this be number 1, or would it
be less confusing to have them follow at the end of the
exhibits that have already been put into evidence, Your
Honor? As I understand it, all the evidence that was
received at the earlier hearing will be a part of the total
record of the case and does not have to be re-introduced,
and I was just wondering if it wouldn't be less confusing
to pick up with those numbers on both sides and continue
with them.
THE COURT: I see no reason why we couldn't handle
it in that way. Does anyone take exception? The next
exhibit would be 62, it would be Plaintiffs* Exhibit 62.
Mr. Chambers, do you have any reason to feel that it should
follow?
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MR. CHAMBERS: I have no objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let it be marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit
62 then, and Plaintiffs' Exhibit 62 la received into the
evidence, and counsel for the State Board of Education and
Dr. Phillips, State Superintendent, objects. All right.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 62
for identification and was received in evidence.)
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to call the superintendent,
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ward.
WHEREUPON,
MARVIN M. WARD
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, you have testified
in this matter in January during the Court's hearing on the
motion for preliminary injunction, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Since that time, the Board has proposed a modifi
cation of the pupil assignment plan and has filed a copy of
that with the Court?
A That's correct.
Q You're familiar with that proposal?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: I would like to identify as
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Plaintiffs* Exhibit 63 a document entitled "Modifica
tion of Pupil Assignment Plan."
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 63 for identification.)
Q I will hand you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 63 and ask you
to state whether that is the proposed plan that the Board
submitted to the Court?
A Yes, it is.
Q Would you state what the Board proposes with
reference to the elementary schools in the system for
1970-71?
MR, MOODY: If it please Your Honor, I'm sure
Your Honor understands our position. This doesn't
relate to us. We wish to object to it anyway.
THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel for
the State Board and the Superintendent objects,
MR. MOODY: I want to follow this all through,
and that's the reason—
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that
counsel objects. I don't know what he's going to ask;
some of it you might not object to.
MR. MOODY: He's going to explore the proposed
plan, as I understand it, which of course is all right.
As a legal proposition, I don't want it related to my
defendants.
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THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel for
the State Board and the State Superintendent makes a
general objection to the testimony of Mr. Ward with
reference to the pupil assignment plan. The objection
is overruled. Go ahead.
A Mr. Chambers, will you be a little bit more
specific, please, about what you have in mind?
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you tell the Court how
you propose to assign students to the elementary schools
in the system for 1970-71?
A Students will be assigned to the elementary
district in which they live, and then will be granted a
majority to minority transfer to another school if they
request it prior to June the 1st, with the privilege of
transportation provided by the school system within the
capacity of the schools to which they might request transfer.
And in addition to that, if there is still capacity, any
student may request a transfer to a school outside his
district. Any student may request that he be transferred
to a school outside of his district, and if there is capa
city after the majority to minority transfer, then he would
be granted that privilege.
Q You mean that for all the students you are con
tinuing the freedom of choice?
A It would be a freedom of transfer and not freedom
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of choice. They would first be assigned and granted freedom
of transfer.
Q However you define it, freedom of choice or
freedom of transfer, the student would be able to transfer
to any school he desired for any reason?
A Without giving a reason, if it's within the
capacity of the school.
Q It might also be race?
A No reference to race in the request.
Q If that’s the purpose for the transfer, the
Board could still go ahead?
A He doesn’t give any reason for his request for
transfer.
Q I understand that, but I’m saying if he wanted
to transfer because of race, under the plan that you now
have he would be able to transfer?
A He could transfer for that or any other reason.
Q Let's take the elementary schools that you have
in the system today. You have forty elementary schools in
the system?
A I believe that's probably correct.
C Do you have a list of the elementary schools in
the system?
A Yes, there is a listing.
Q Now, the students at Ardmore Elementary School are
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presently assigned by geographic zone, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And are penaltted freedom of choice after assign
ment?
A That is correct.
Q Do you propose any change with reference to Ard
more Elementary School?
A No change in the Ardmore district.
Q Do you propose any change with reference to
Bolton?
A No.
Q Do you propose any change with reference to
Brown?
A No.
G Do you propose any change with reference to
Children's Center?
A No.
Q Children's Home?
A No.
Q Do you propose any change with reference to
Brunson?
A No.
Q Clemmons?
A No.
Q Cooke?
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A No.
Q Diggs?
A No.
Q Easton?
A No.
a Fairview?
A No.
Q 14th Street?
A No.
Q Griffith?
A No.
Q Ibraham?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the Court what change you propose
with reference to Ibraham?
A At the present time, there is no distinct boundary
on the northern portion of Prince Ibraham, and it is pro
posed that a boundary be set on the northern-western dis
tricts for Prince Ibraham, and that the northern half of
the present Carver Elementary School district would be
assigned to Ibraham.
Q I believe that Ibraham is adjacent to Carver?
A Yes, it is, on the north.
Q On the north?
A On the north.
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Q And you previously did not have any boundary on
the northern part of Ibraham?
A The Oak Summit, Mineral Springs and Prince Ibraham
district had been one school district up until this time.
Q How were students assigned to all those schools
in the one district?
A To the general proximity and capacity of the three
buildings.
Q And you propose to close Carver Elementary School?
A That is correct.
0 Do you propose any change with reference to
Kernersville?
A No.
Q Kimberly Park?
A No.
Q Is that Konnoak?
A Konnoak, yes. No change.
Q Latham?
A No.
Q Lewisville?
A No.
Q Lowrance?
A Yes. I believe section of the Lowrance district,
the northeast corner, is proposed to be added to the Mineral
Springs district.
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THE COURT* That's the Lewisville?
THE WITNESS* No, that's the Lowrance.
THE COURT* Lowrance.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Northeast corner to what?
A The Mineral Springs District.
Q Would that involve a transfer of some black
students from Lowrance to Mineral Springs?
A Yes, it will.
Q Did you prepare a map showing these new zones
for the schools that you are indicating?
A Yes, we have.
Q Do you have it?
A I believe it was introduced into the Court, was
it not?
MR. WOMBLEs it was filed with the Court along
with the plan.
MR. CHAMBERS* Your Honor, we didn't get a copy
of that.
MR. WCJMBLE* I don't recall whether you did or
not, Mr. Chambers; but there was a copy filed with the
Court, I know.
THE COURT* I am not aware of it. Mr. Leggett
has been working with these exhibits. I inquire of
you—
MR. WQMBLE* We can go back to your office and I
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think I can pick it out for you, if you want to.
THE COURT: That doesn't mean that it hasn't been
filed.
CLERK LEGGETT, I believe ve do have a map back
there; I don't know whether it's been filed. Ve do
have it back there.
THE COURT: Well, go back and get that, please.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we have two copies of
each map with the Court.
THE COURT: Since you mentioned that, that's
been in my office there for a good while.
MR. WOMBLE: They were filed, I believe, on
February 16th when the written portions were filed,
and there's one map for the elementary schools and
one for Junior high and one for high school.
THE COURT: I now recall when the plan was brought
over, I kept those in my office. I've read the plan
but I did not examine the map.
MR. CHAMBERS: Well, I Just mention for the
record that we have just received the map. Ve would
like to put this on the board.
THE COURT: Yes. All right, when you're ready,
Mr. Chambers.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, would you indicate
y that map may we identify that map as Plaintiff's
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Exhibit 64 - that’s the map of the elementary schools
showing the changes proposed by the Board.
THE COURT: Ail right.
(The document above referred to wsb
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 64
for identification.)
Q Would you indicate what changes you have proposed
for Ibraham?
A In Ibraham School, the former boundaries were
firm on the east and on the south, but the Oak Summit,
Mineral Springs and Ibraham district were as one. The map
now shows a distinct district for Ibraham on the north and
on the west, and a district has been established for Mineral
Springs and Oak Summit, three distinct separate districts
that did not exist before. In the northern half of the
Carver district, the line running approximately through the
Carver, was added to the Ibraham district, and the children
in this area were assigned here.
Q Just going back a bit, Mr. Ward, why didn't you
have a district drawn for Oak Summit, Mineral Springs and
Ibraham before?
A The period of years that have passed, there was
no particular reason for assignment in this district,
because the three schools were located so close together
that it had been a little easier to keep these schools at
near their capacity without the line than it would with a
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fixed line, in the changing through here.
Q Were they not also located rather close to
Carver Elementary?
A Reasonably close.
C But you have established a definite boundary
between those schools and Carver Elementary?
A Carver Elementary had had a definite boundary for
many years. There were only two places in the school
system that definite boundaries did not exist; between these
three schools which had been part of the old county system,
these had been part of one school district or had been one
school district; the other place there wasn't a distinct
line, between Petree and Walkertown. All other schools in
the school system did have district lines.
Q Were not the schools that did not have district
lines white schools?
A Predominantly, yes.
Q And I believe that Carver, like Prince Ibraham and
Summit and - Oak Summit and Mineral Springs, was also in
the county system prior to the merger?
A That is correct. But it covered the entire county
system.
Q Is that the district, the county?
A Originally. The old county system was the entire
county.
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Q When did you establish a boundary for Carver?
I think it was in about '64.
When you established it for the other schools in
A
Q
the system?
A It had been established some time prior to that
time.
Q All right. The other change you indicated was
at Lowrance?
A Yes. This section, which was a part of Lowrance
on the northeast corner, on the east side of Highway 52,
had been a part of the Lowrance School district, was
assigned to Mineral Springs.
Q Well, now, did you make any other changes in the
elementary schools?
A In the elementary schools?
Q Yes.
A Yes, the Petree and the Carver School district
was changed.
Q Would you state what you did at Petree?
A As I stated a while ago, there was no definite
line between Walkertown and Petree. The School Board did
establish a line between these two school districts.
Q Between Walkertown and Petree?
A Between Walkertown and Petree. And also the
southern half of the Carver School district was assigned to
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the Petree Elementary School.
cemea, is that all that you have proposed in your plan?
A That is all that we have proposed, I believe,
in connection with elementary schools.
Q Now, while you're there, I would like to establish.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we had several maps
that we introduced previously, and we would like the
map that has the inner city elementary schools.
THE COURT: All right. We will get them.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) While they're getting that, Mr.
Ward, would you tell us how far Carver Elementary is from
Prince Ibraham Elementary?
A Probably a little over a mile.
Q Ana how far is Prince Ibraham from Mineral Springs'
A Pretty close to the same distance, about a milej
between a mile and a mile and a half, I would guess. We
could measure it here on the map, I think, without any
difficulty. Prince Ibraham is approximately two miles from
Carver and about a mile— well, almost two miles to Mineral
Springs, approximately the same distance.
Q How far is Prince Ibraham from Oak Summit?
A Approximately two miles.
Q And how far is Oak Summit from Mineral Springs?
A About three-quarters of a mile. All of these
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distances, of course, are measured on the map
MR. WOMBLEx As you say, as the crow flies?
THE WITNESS: As the crow flies.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) How far is Petree from
Walkertown Elementary School?
A About four and a half miles.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, will you point out where
Carver School is located there?
THE WITNESS: Carver School is located at about
where this line crosses, about midway from the east
side of the district and about where the line runs
(indicating on map).
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Under the plan that you propose,
would Lowrance end up as a racially mixed or racially un-
mixed school?
A I believe it might have some fifteen - approxi
mately fifteen white students in it.
Q And your proposed estimates show here that it
would decrease to eleven whites?
A That’s possible. The total enrollment would be
reduced, and that could possibly happen. The section
assigned to Mineral Springs, I believe black residents live
in that section, and of course that would greater desegre
gate Mineral Springs.
Q But it would also reduce the number of white
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A I don't think that's the portion that makes the
difference of the white students at Lowrance. I don't
think they live in that section. It may be that there are
three or four living in that section and it might reduce
them.
Ibraham would end up, according to your projection,
with 235 black and 361 white, is that correct?
A Yes.
0 And Mineral Springs would end up with 175 black
and 706 white, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Oak Summit, there wouldn't be any racial
change in that school, would there?
A Very little.
Q Would there be any change in the Petree Elementary
School?
A Yes. I believe 146 black and 319 white, so it
would be a substantial increase there.
Q Would there be any change in the Fairview Elemen
tary School of the racial composition?
A No.
Q Your projection here shows that it would remain
all black?
A I believe that's correct.
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Q Would there be any change in the 14th Street
Elementary School?
A No.
Q I believe your projection shows here that it
would be all black?
A That’s correct.
Q Would there be any change in the Kimberly Elemen
tary School?
A No.
Q I believe your projection shows here that it would
be all black?
A Correct.
Q Would there be any change in the North Elementary
School?
A No.
Q Tliat is all black?
A Yes.
Q The same is true of Brown Elementary School?
A Yes.
Q The same is true of Skyland Elementary School?
A Yes.
Q Would there be any change in Mebane Elementary
School?
A No.
Q Your projection shows that it will remain all
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black?
A Yes.
Q Will there be any change in the Diggs Elementary
School?
A No.
Q Your record shows here that it will remain all
black?
A Yes.
Q Will there be any change in the Forest Park
Elementary School?
THE COURT: Wait a minute. You say Diggs?
MR. CHAMBERS: Diggs. It's all white according
to the projection.
THE COURT: I see. I thought you said it would
remain all black.
MR. CHAMBERS: I thought it was all black. I
guess that's a mistake.
THE COURT; My copy shows that it would be 609
white. That should be 609 black?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it should.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Your Forest Park Elementary
School would remain about the same?
A Approximately,
Q V/aughtovm Elementary School would remain about the
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A Yes.
Q Easton Elementary would remain the same?
A Approximately.
Q South Park would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Konnoak would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Latham would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Ardmore would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Bolton would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Moore Elementary would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q Whitaker Elementary would remain the same?
A Yes.
Q In fact, if one accounts for the elementary kids
being taken from Carver Elementary School and the portion
being taken out of the present Lovrance district, one would
account for about all of the integration that you are pro-
Meeting?
A On the elementary level.
Q Is that correct?
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A Yes, sir. Other than the integration that would
come from the majority to minority transfer provision.
Q We have already seen that you have had a freedom
of choice provision in effect here for some time?
A That's correct.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, while Mr. Chambers is
getting his map out there, how many more black students
under this plan do you say approximately would be
attending schools that were formerly and predominantly
white, in addition to the previous number?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I do not recall the
additional number at this time.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Well, in the elementary
schools, you've got about three hundred students at Carver
Elementary, don't you?
A About 350. These transfers here would be some
where between four and five hundred, I believe. The only
transfers that have been made in terms of elementary schools
in addition to what had been in the past, this is the only
change, it's shown in color on the map, and I would estimate
between four and five hundred in this process.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) You will end up with Lowrance
being predominantly black, and adjacent to Mineral Springs
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on the north?
A This district is Kimberly Park, and this is Cook,
and this is Brunson.
Q Now, if it's adjacent to the Brunson Elementary
district on the west— is it?
A Yes.
Q And also Kimberly on the south?
A Yes. The southwest, really.
Q Does this map have the same scale as the other
map?
A No, it does not; it’s about twice as large, I
believe.
Q Would you tell the Court approximately how far it
is from the northern tip of the Brunson Elementary district
to the Brunson Elementary School?
THE COURT* Mr. Chambers, the question is what
now?
MR. CHAMBERS: Approximately how far it is from
the northern part of Brunson Elementary district to
the Brunson Elementary School.
A It's a little over two miles.
Q From the northern part to the southern part of
the Whitaker Elementary School, you have approximately
three miles - a little over two miles?
A Are you speaking from the corner of the school—
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or from one edge of the district to the other?
Q From one edge of the district to the other.
A That's not what you're asking now?
Q No.
A Approximately two and a half miles.
Q Approximately how far is Skyland Elementary
School from Sedge Garden Elementary School?
A Slightly over four miles.
Q And approximately how wide is Sedge Garden - the
Sedge Garden elementary district from west to east?
A Approximately seven miles.
Q While you're here, would you tell the Court what
change you have proposed for the Junior high schools?
A The change in the Junior high district would be
to expand Carver Junior High School and include the total
of the Prince Ibraham Elementary district and the total of
the Petree district into Carver Junior High.
Q Is that all of the changes?
A That is the proposed changes in the Junior high
school.
G And that would make Carver, according to your
estimate, 190 black and 540 white?
A That's correct.
Q And that would be the total increase in integra
tion of the Junior high schools projected?
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A That's correct.
What have you proposed in reference to the senior
high schools?
A In the same area we were discussing, in the
Carver area, the Petree section of Carver at the senior
high school level would be assigned to East High School,
and the Prince Ibraham section of Carver would be assigned
to North High School, and the portion of Lowrance which was
added to Mineral Springs would then go on to North High
School.
Q Is there change in Carver?
A The Parkland district would be expanded to take
in what is presently the total Anderson High School district,
and all the high school students in this area would be sent
to Parkland.
Q What you propose in the senior high schools is to
close Carver Senior High and Anderson Senior High?
A That is correct.
Q That is all the changes?
A That is the changes.
Q Your total plan involves only blacks being assigned
to white schools?
A That is correct.
Q I believe that your plan will leave approximately
80 percent of the black elementary students in black or in
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almost all black schools, and approximately eighty percent
of the white students in elementary school in white or
almost all white schools?
A That may be true; I've not figured the percentages,
Q And I believe in the junior high schools, it
would leave approximately 70 percent of the blacks in «n
black schools and 70 percent of the whites in all white
schools?
A That may be true. I still - I've not figured
out the percentages.
Q I believe in the senior high schools that you
would leave approximately 50 percent of the blacks in all
black schools and 50 percent of the whites in all white
schools?
A That may be true. I have not figured the per
centages .
Q Now, prior to the Board's adoption of the plan
that it submitted to the Court, the Board had before it a
plan proposed by Dr. Carroll McGuffey, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, Mr. Womble advises me
that the document he gave me this morning is the final
copy of the McGuffey plan, short-range plan. I haven't
had a chance to compare it with the copies that we have
been furnished. We would like to identify our copy,
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and compare it during the lunch period; it is com
paratively the same.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs* Exhibit No. 65
for identification.)
Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 65. Now, I
understand that the Board employed Dr. Carroll McQuffey to
prepare the plan for desegregation?
A The Board employed Dr. McGuffey to devise a plan.
I do not recall that it was a specific plan for desegrega
tion; I do not believe that it was.
Q To devise a plan?
A That's right. I don't believe it was specifically
to be a plan for desegregation.
Q I believe that he proposes in his short-range
plan some steps for assigning pupils to schools, is thatj
correct?
A I have not read his plan recently; I assume that
it is. Would you mind telling me what page you have
reference to?
Q Are you telling the —
A Ye3, I read Dr. McGuffey*s plan,
Q Didn't he propose some steps?
A I do net recall any specific steps in there,
maybe.
Q What do you think Mr. McGuffey's plan was?
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A He prepared a short-range and a long-range plan
for assignment of students to schools and for school con
struction.
Q That’s what I asked. Didnlt he propose the means
for assigning students to schools?
A I assume that he did in connection with it. I
don't know what you have reference to.
Q You have the Exhibit 65 there before you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you look at it and state whether that is
the preliminary draft of the short-range plan of Dr.
McGuffey?
A I believe that it is.
Q Now, isn't it true, Mr. Ward, that throughout the
short-range plan, he's talking about integration of students
in the school system?
A A portion of it is.
Q Isn't that the purpose for his work here in the
system?
A Partially.
Q To prepare a plan for desegregating the schools?
A I don't believe that was the specific request of
Dr. McGuffey in connection with it.
Q He wasn't to consider race at all?
A He was to consider that, among other factors.
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-133
Q Well, that was part of why he was here?
A Ye3, sir.
Q Now, in preparing a plan for assigning pupils, I
understand that educators establish some initial objectives?
A That is generally correct.
Q Did you work on the plan that was submitted by
the Board of Education?
A Yes, I did.
Q Would you tell the Court what objectives you had
in mind at the time, or that you set?
A I’m not sure exactly what you have in mind, Mr.
Chambers, or what you are asking.
Q Were you trying to desegregate the schools?
A That was one factor in it.
Q That wasn’t the basic objective?
A That was part of the objective.
Q What other objectives did you have in mind?
A To utilize the buildings to their fullest capacity,
and also to try to keep the proper balance for an educational
program.
Q What do you mean "proper balance"?
A Size of schools and so forth.
Q Was one of your objectives to effect as much
racial mixing as possible?
A Within certain limits, yes.
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-134C
q Now, would you define those limits for the Court?
A The limits of the extensive transportation.
Q Was there anything else?
A I believe that’s all.
Q What did you define as "extensive transportation"?
A Where students would have to be moved beyond or
past one school or another.
Q Past one school or another?
A Yes.
G Is that the only limitation?
A I believe that’s correct.
Q Did it make any difference whether the school
was serving the students’ grade level?
A That would be a factor in determining whether you
were passing one school or another.
Q In North High School, I believe you hâ ue students
passing schools on buses.
A Would you give me a specific example?
G Let’s go back again, Mr. Ward.
MR. CHAMBERS: I’d like to identify Plaintiffs’
Exhibit 66.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 66
for identification.)
Q These principal's monthly transportation reports
from October 1969 through March 9, 1970.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8, A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Mix. CHAMBERS: The number?
MR. WOMBLE: The substance of it.
MR. CHAMBERS: The transportation monthly report.
Ml,. WOKBLE: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you look at this document
and tell me what that document is?
A This is six school month transportation report
dated February 10th, 1970 xhrough March 9th, 1970, for the
transportation in the school system, and the one from
August 27th to September 25th, ’69, and October 27th to
November 21st, 1969.
Q This report we’re looking at now, February 10,
1970 to March 9, 1970, shows that there are 216 buses operat
ing in the system?
A That is correct.
0 And a total of 18,104 students who are transported
daily?
A That's right.
Q Average?
A Yes.
q Now, looking at the monthly report, the first
column shows the bus number, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The second column shows the driver ot the bus, is
MR. WGMBLEj What is that exhibit?
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that correct?
A Yes.
Q The third column shows the age of the driver?
A Yes.
Q The fourth column shows the average miles round
trip per day for the number of trips that the bus makes?
A Yes.
Q The next column shows the total extra miles of
the bus for the month?
A That's right.
Q The next column shows the average time?
A That's rj ght.
Q The next column shows the number of students
transported?
A Yes.
Q The next column shows the legal capacity of the
bus?
A Yes.
Q The next column shows the number of students
transferred on the first, second, third and fourth trips?
A That’s right.
Q And the next column shows the schools to which
these students are transported and the number of students
transported?
A That’s right.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q To a particular school.
A Yes.
Q Now, let’s look at the first page of this exhibit
for that month. It shows the bus number 11 is driven by a
17-year-old; it makes two trips daily, an average of 16
miles on the first trip, 12 miles on the second tripj in
fact, it makes three trips - 6 miles on the third trip*
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q It takes an average of one hour and fifteen
minutes to make the trip?
A That's correct.
Q And that bus transports 56 students daily.
A Yes.
Q An average capacity of 75?
A Yes.
Q And on the first trip he carries 20 students,
the second trip 49 students?
A Yes.
Q The third trip 21 students?
A Yes.
Q Now, showing you a page for that period—
MR. WOMBLE: Which one are you looking at?
MR. CHAMBERS: The period from February to March,
Q (By Mr. Chambers) The school is Clemmons
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Elementary School. It shows that bus number 207 travels an
average of 30.4 miles per day on the first trip, and 8.4
miles per day on the second trip?
A Yes.
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Bus number 188 travels an average of 30 miles on
the first trip and 8.4 miles on the second trip?
A Yes.
Q It takes both buses an hour and twenty minutes to
make the trip one way, a total of two hours and forty
minutes per day?
A Yes.
Q The principal's months report for that period at
Old Richmond shows that bus number 144 travels 31.6 miles
on the first trip, and 36.9 miles on the second trip?
A Yes.
q And it takes that bus an average of one hour and
thirty minutes one way, three hours a day?
A That's correct.
Q For the Wesley B. Speas Elementary School, bus
number 243 travels 32 miles a day, an average of one hour
and forty minutes one way, three hours and twenty minutes
per day?
A Right.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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U is that correct?
A That's right.
G So you have some students traveling some rather
long distances in the system now?
A Yes, we do have some traveling long distances.
I would point out that the time that you are indicating
there is the total driver time and not the actual time the
students stay on the bus.
Q From the time he leaves home and goes and delivers
the students and stops the bus?
A This is a state record, and I believe that that
gives him some time at the beginning or end of the day for
warming up the bus, for getting it ready, and for cleaning
the bus in the afternoon.
Q Well, I think all of that is set out in the
regulations given you by the Gtate Board of Education, is
that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And it defines the purpose?
A That's correct.
G Now, we were talking about the limitations that
you considered in establishing the proposal that you sub
mitted to the Court, and one of them is that you did not
want to transport students by their school?
A That’s correct.
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G I understood you to say that that was the only
limitation that you recall?
A In connection with bus transportation, yes.
Q You just didn’t want to bus students?
A Past other schools.
Q Past other schools?
A Yes.
C You did not consider pairing any schools?
A We may have considered it; we didn't make any
decision to pair any.
G Do you know why?
A I don't know how to answer that question.
G Do you know why the Board did not pair any schools?
A No, I do not know why the Board did not make the
decision to pair any schools.
Q Did you propose to the Board that they pair any
schools?
A I did rot make a specific recommendation that any
schools be paired.
Q Do you have objections to pairing schools?
A The objection that I mentioned, that students
would have to be transported beyond the school of the same
grade level.
C Now, it would be possible to pair schools in your
system and desegregate them, would it not?
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A That could be done in some instances.
Q But that was ruled out by the Board, that possi
bility?
A It did not make that decision.
Q I believe, Mr. Ward, that we could point out
several instances where pairing would desegregate schools
and you wouldn't have any more transportation than what you
have in the system today.
A It's possible that you could do it without having
more transportation than we have, but it would affect
different children.
Q Would affect different children?
A Yes, it would.
Q You mean you would have some white students going
to black schools?
A No, you would have some students going to different
schools from which they are not attending, without regard
to race.
Q Now, looking at the guidelines that were proposed
by Dr. McGuffey on page 3» he too ruled out pairing, did he
not?
A Apparently I do not have a page 3.
MR. WOMBLEt I don't have a page 3 in mine either.
MR, CHAMBERS* Your Honor, we'd like to substitute
this page 3 that's missing from the copies.
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your stamp, Mr. Idol? Maybe you’d better cancel that
one and put another one on it.
CLERK IDEOL: What number is that?
MR. CHAMBERS: 65.
CLERK IDOL: Number 65. Your Honor, we'll place
the number 65 on this one and cancel the other one.
THE COURT: All right. While we're getting that,
and before we leave this point, Mr. Ward, you say there
are schools that can be paired without increasing the
total transportation?
THE WITNESS: There are some schools that are
reasonably close together, but the transportation of
students who could now walk to the schools would be
required.
THE COURT: Well, that would if you paired then,
cause some extra busing?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it would take additional
transportation. As I understood Mr. Chambers question,
and maybe I did not understand it, he had been making
reference to distance of busing and so forth. This
could be done and the distances would not be as great
as some that we are now transporting students. We
would have to transport a number of additional students
to do it. But in the city areas, or the thickly
THE COURT: Do you have that one marked with
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populated areas, we would be transporting a number of
students but not as far as some we now transport in
rural areas.
THE COURT: All right; continue.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would you look at the guideline
that Mr. McGuffey has followed?
A Yes.
Q He too rules out the pairing of schools?
A I believe that's correct.
Q But he does cause some new zones or zone altera
tions?
A Yes, he does.
Q Would you point out to the Court what zone changes
he has proposed?
A Do you have one of Dr. McGuffey's maps by any
chance?
Q We don't have one of his maps. Could we use one
of your present maps and let you point out for the Court
what changes he ia proposing? Do you want to start with
the county or city elementary?
A Maybe we'd better start in the manner in which he
has made his recommendations.
MR. WGMBLE: Mr. Chambers, are you referring to
Dr. McGuffey's short-range or his long-range proposals?
MR. CHAMBERS: Short-range proposals.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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organized, we usually take a short recess at about
this time. Let's have a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ward, if you'll come
back to the stand, please sir,
MR. CHAMBERS; Your Honor, Mr. Womble said he
gave you a copy of the monthly bus report. May I
exchange a copy of the exhibit that we had identified?
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, would you tell us
now the changes that were proposed by Mr. McGuffey?
A At the high school level, Dr. McGuffey recommended
two changes. One of them is that the Anderson Senior High
School - and this outlines the district - be assigned to
Parkland Senior High School. And this is the general out
line of the Parkland School district. It is adjacent to it,
Just to the north, and his proposal that Anderson be closed
and this district be added to Parkland. The other proposal
at senior high school was that Carver Senior High be closed
and that the northern portion of it be assigned to North
High School, which district is adjacent to the north and
west, and that the southern portion be added to East Senior
High School, which is to the east of that portion of the
district. The recommendations in connection with the
THE COURT: While you are all getting that
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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junior high school, that Anderson Junior High School be
closed and it has the same district as Anderson Senior
High School, and that the students be assigned — a portion
of them - to Hill Junior High School, which is to the
southeast, and to Philo which is to the southwest. Both
of those are junior high schools. And that Carver Junior
High School be closed, and the northern portion of the
Carver Junior High School district be assigned to Mineral
Springs Junior High School, which is to the north and west,
and the southern portion be assigned to V/alkertown, which
is to the northeast. And that at Paisley Junior High
School, which has a district now serving Kimberly Park and
Carver Crest, that a portion of the Carver Crest district
be assigned to Wiley, or a portion of the Paisley district
to the south be assigned to Wiley Junior High School, which
is to the south, and that a portion of the Whitaker, or
most of the Whitaker district - I believe includes some of
the Sherwood Forest and Speas districts which are to the
west of Paisley - be assigned to Paisley, increasing the
enrollment somewhat at Paisley where there is capacity,
and it would create greater desegregation at both Wiley
and Paisley. It was proposed that Dalton Junior High
School, which is in the southwest, that the eastern portion
of that district - a part of the Moore and Ardmore Elementary
districts - be assigned to Wiley Junior High School, and
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C
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that a portion of the Southwest Junior High School district,
namely a part of the South Fork Elementary district, be
assigned to Dalton, because it is overcrowded at Southwest
and the shift to Dalton would give some room there. I
believe those were the basic changes at the junior high
school level.
At the elementary level, it was proposed that
Mebane School be closed and that Forest Park Elementary
School be closed, and that the students from both of these
two elementary districts be assigned to the Anderson Junior-
Senior High School building, and that it be made into an
elementary school. The recommendation that Carver Elementary
School be closed and that the northern section be assigned
to Ibraham and the southern section be assigned to Petree
on the west, that Carver Crest Elementary School, which is
Just north of Brunson and south of Kimberly Park, that
Carver Crest be closed as a regular elementary school and
that most of the students there be assigned to Brunson
Elementary School, and that the gifted classes at Brunson
Elementary School be assigned to Carver Crest, and that
the other portion of the Carver Crest building not needed
for that purpose would be used for an administrative
purpose, and that the northern section of the Brunson
district - I believe — be added to Whitaker Elementary
School. And the portion of Kimberly Park which is west of
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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Cherry-Marshall Expressway be added to the Whitaker School
district. And in order to make room for those students
there, that the portion of the Whitaker district south of
Country Club Road be assigned to Moore School where space
is available. And that a portion of the South Fork School
district and a portion of the Sherwood Forest School district
be assigned to Moore School, and that is the same portion
that I made reference to in South Fork changing to Dalton
Junior High School in the southwest.
In the northern section, it was recommended that
200 students be moved from the Lowrance district, from the
Mineral Springs district, I believe, into the Oak Summit
School, and then possibly 150 to 175 of the Lowrance School
shifted into Mineral Springs, And I believe the other
recommendations came in connection with the use of the
Carver School building for the program that is now housed
in old Central School. I believe in the process of making
space available for all of these students in Whitaker, that
the eastern portion of Moore School district was assigned
to Brunson, and I believe that is essentially the changes
that were recommended in that plan.
Q Were the students being assigned to Parkland from
Anderson, would they be provided transportation?
A Under the present state law, they could and would
be granted transportation.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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A About three miles.
Q Would the students from Carver High School who
were assigned to North High School, would they be provided
transportation?
A Yes, they would.
0 Would you tell the Court approximately how far
they would be transported?
A About five miles.
Q They would also be assigned to East?
A Yes.
Q Approximately how far would those students be
transported?
A About three miles.
Q Now, would the students in the junior high school,
under the proposal of Dr. McGuffey, be provided transporta
tion?
A Under the majority to minority plan of our present
School Board, they would be provided. I don’t recall what
recommendation Dr. McGuffey made with reference to it. If
that plan went into effect, under the majority to minority
transfer, I believe they would be granted transportation.
Q Would the students in the elementary school under
the plan by Dr. McGuffey be provided transportation?
Q Would you tell the Court approximately how far it
would be from that district to Parkland?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P HONE: 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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A I cannot answer that question generally. Trans
portation would be provided on the basis of the state law,
whatever it is.
G Do you recall what the state law is?
A The state law is— it hasn't been determined for
the future.
THE COURT: That is in the bosom of the Court?
THE WITNESS* That's right.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A At the present time transportation is granted to
students who lived outside of the city boundary in 1957 if
they live more than a mile and a half from the school, and
to students inside of this district, if they live outside
of this boundary, and to students inside if they live out
side, based upon the present state law.
Q Now, all expenses for transportation under the
i
standards, are they paid for by the state?
A A portion of it; part of it is paid locally.
0 What part is paid for locally?
A V/e have a transportation system in which we
transport the elementary students home first in the after
noon, and then the Junior and senior high school students
later. The local Board of Education pays the extra cost
of transportation to take the elementary school students
home first.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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average is per student?
A I»m sorry; I do not have that information at this
time.
G Do you know what the average cost per pupil is
for transportation daily?
A I don’t recall. That evidence is already in court,
I believe, and I don’t recall what it was. It seems in
the neighborhood of $16.00, $16.50. I believe the state
average is about $16.50; I’m not real positive of that. I
believe that was put into evidence earlier.
Q Is that annually or per day?
A That's the approximate annual cost, I believe, per
child.
Q You might sit down. Isn't It true, Mr. Ward, that
you provide transportation for students in addition to that
transportation provided for by the state?
MR. MOODY: I want to point an objection to that.
The state doesn't provide transportation or assign
any of the bus routes, none of those things.
THE COURT: All right. Overrule the objection; go
ahead. If you can answer, you may.
A We have some transportation for special education
paid for partially by the state and partially locally. And
I'm not sure what the division of cost.
Q Would you tell the Court approximately what that
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
C u nidc , n f i ^ s
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-1 ■
Q Do you know approximately how many of those
students are transported daily?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Are they included in the monthly report?
A I think they are.
Q Do you not also have activity buses?
A Yes, we do.
Q Do you not also use buses to transport students
to special events?
A We use activity buses for the purpose of transport-’
ing students to special events.
Q The McGuffey plan provides for more integration
than the plan that the Board submitted to the Court, is that
correct?
A Yes, it does.
G Do you know the approximate number of black
students who would be in a racially mixed school under the
McGuffey plan?
A No, I do not.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, under the McGuffey plan, to
carry that out, would it be necessary to - as you
understand it - to bus children within the old city
limits, thax is prior to ’57?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it would.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, does not the Board
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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under the plan it submitted to the Court also propose to do
that?
A At the time the Board made its decision in this
connection, it did not propose any transportation other than
any additional transportation that would not be provided
under the present state regulation, except for the majority
to minority transfer.
Q Does the McGuffey plan provide any more, do you
know?
A Does it provide for any more what?
Q Any more transportation.
A It requires more, but I don’t recall anything in
the McGuffey report that states who would pay for it or how
it would be provided.
Q Would you look at page 28-A of the exhibit you
have? He indicates that 71 percent of the pupils would be
attending a school which had one or more pupils of the
opposite race, under his proposal. Is that correct?
A That’s his statement.
Q And that approximately 34 percent of the black
pupils would be in integrated or predominantly white schools?
A That’s his statement.
Q Now, would you tell the Court why the School Board
came in with a plan providing for much less?
MR. WOKBLE: Object.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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1
THL' COURT: Well of
asked to tel! whv * ^ « - * * » . *—
he knows i“ ^ ~ y «“ »
’ U °Vernae « » objection. Do you know?
THE WITNESS: I cannot ^ ^1 cannot answer the question
m - Your Honor, ve would
Court-a permission " W , t the
THE c o u r t: Juat a uinutei i can.t „
that airplane. you vlth
HR. CHAMBERS! Since we have that problem, we
P e n s i o n of the Court to call in the Chai
of the Board of Education. ^
THE COURT: All right.
~ - z “ t — * — » •
baa proposed? ^ ^ plan « ■ * he
believe, ellepTthT ^ T ad<Utl0nal formation, I
believe it giVes co ^ “ * ~ 1 - - *
Q ^ your staff worked ™ +v>
on ***« approximate cost?
^cGuffey plan?
Of the McGuffey plan>
^°» it has not.
Would you tell the Court- t
-rve as chainnan of the Board of E d u c a t e d ̂ ^
A No, sir nation, do you not?
A
Q
A
Q
G R A H A M E R L A C H F b a . . _ _
A t *H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M N c
P r o n e ; 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Q As secretary?
A Yes, I do.
Q And you attend all the meetings?
A Yes.
Q And you attended the meeting when the Board con
sidered the McGuffey plan?
A Yes.
Q And you were there and recorded the vote rejecting
the McGuffey plan?
A Sir, I do not believe that the Board ever accepted
or rejected the McGuffey plan. I believe they accepted the
McGuffey plan for consideration, but I do not believe that
they ever made any decision to accept or reject this plan.
0 They did not propose it as a plan to the Court?
A They did not.
Q They proposed what has now been introduced as
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 63?
A That's right.
Q You were there when the Board made that decision,
were you not?
A Yes.
q Would you tell the Court what transpired that you
recorded with relation to the provisions of the McGuffey
plan or not proposing the McGuffey plan to the Court?
A Will you please restate the question?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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Q Would you tell the Court what you recorded as
secretary that transpired at the meetings of the Board
that led the Board to propose the plan that has heen sub
mitted as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 63, rather than the proposal
of Dr. McGuffey?
A I cannot do that without the minutes of the Board.
I could obtain the minutes of that meeting and provide them
to the Court, but I cannot answer the question without it.
Q Did you have any hearing - public hearing - in
reference to the plan?
A There were some public hearings in connection
with Dr. McGuffey’s presentation to the Board and to the
public.
Q Would you tell the Court what those hearings
consisted of, or what happened?
A It consisted of Dr. McGuffey's appearance and
explanation of the plan which he had proposed, and the Board
did not take any action on either occasion when the plans
were proposed or discussed.
Q Did you have any public hearings?
A No public hearings other than the ones at which
he presented the plan.
Q Did you have any interested citizens to come to
the meeting of the Board?
A Yes, there were a substantial number present when
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C.
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he discussed the plan.
0 Did they express any opposition to the plan?
A I am sure there were some expressions, I believe,
both pro and con.
Would you tell the Court whether any parents from
the Forest Park Elementary School attended the meeting in
protest over the proposed closing of that school?
A Some Forest Park parents were present, and I
believe did register objection.
Q Would you tell the Court why they objected?
A I do not recall.
Q Would you tell the Court whether any black parents
attended the Board meeting?
A Some black parents were present.
Q Did they make any expressions about the proposed
closing of Anderson and Carver?
A Yes, they did.
Q Did they say why?
A They objected to the closing of Anderson.
Q Did they say why?
A I do not recall what the specific reasons were.
G Did they object to the closing of Carver?
A I’m not sxire.
Q Did you have any parents to appear there to oppose
any transportation of pupils?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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A Yes, I believe there were some parents there who
registered objection to the transportation of pupils.
Q And following this hearing at this meeting of the
Board, the Board adopted this plan that has now been
presented as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 63?
A This did not occur at that meeting. The adoption
of this plan was sometime later.
Q How much later?
A I do not recall. I would guess some two or three
weeks.
Q And is it your testimony that you didn’t have
any meetings with the Board up until that time in which
parents had attended the meetings in protest of the McGuffey
plan?
A I don’t understand your question.
Q Now, Mr. Ward, do you know of any reason why you
could not today devise a plan which would completely inte
grate all of the schools in the system?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Sustained in that fashion, Mr. Chamber:
They are claiming they are integrated. You may
rephrase it, if you wish.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Do you know of any reason why
you could not today prepare a plan which would provide for
racial mixing of students in each of the schools in the
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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MR. WOMBLEi Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A If you totally disregarded the neighborhood
school concept, and if you totally disregarded time and
cost, and were not concerned about any relationship of the
location of school to the location of the child’s home, a
plan could be devised which would have some black and some
white students in every school in this school system.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Have you considered any such
plan?
A No, I have not.
Q You don't know then anything about cost that would
be involved to do that?
A I have not attempted to determine the cost.
Q And you don't know anything about the distance
the students might be transported?
A I have some idea of the distances the students
would be transported, because of my knowledge of the school
system and the relationship to the schools.
Q Y/ould you have an idea approximately what the
average miles the students would be transported?
A I don't think it could be done in terms of an
average in relation to students. That would be totally
unrealistic, to talk about average, when the buildings are
located as they are.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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G Well, you said you knew something about the
mileage that they would be transported?
A I do.
Q What are you saying in terms of mileage?
A If a decision were made of which schools were
going to be used in relation to the place where the students
live, I have an idea the distance they would have to travel
approximate^.
0 Tell us what that distance would be.
A You select the schools and 1*11 be glad to give
you the distance.
G The only thing that we are asking is what distance
would be involved if we had racial mixing in each school in
the system.
MR. WOMBLEj Your Honor, I submit he's asked this,
and he's told him you can't give an average; it's
obvious when you have a county such as we have with
50,000 pupils and sixty-some schools. He's asking
for an impossible thing without months of work.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, he also made some
conclusionary statements about disregarding this and
disregarding that. I don’t assume that this witness
can stand here and tell the Court with any credibility
that these are matters that would be astronomical and
that would prevent—
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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THE COURT: I overrule the objection. I don't
see, without some computation with this number of
schools and so forth— if he knows— Mr. Ward is an
intelligent witness and he can answer, and Lf he
doesn't, well, say so. I realize without some computa
tions, it would be hard with sixty schools. If you
are going to put 27 percent black in each one, and
what is it, 72 or 73 percent white, that it would take
a little figuring. You'd have to know where the
children are first and average it out. But I overrule
the objection. Go ahead,
A Restate the question, please.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) We were asking abouv, the
average miles, or how far you are saying the students would
have to be transported in order to have racial m:.xing in
each school system.
A I am stating that I cannot give an average on that.
Q You don't have any idea at all about it?
A I don't have any idea what the average would be.
Q What is the present operating budget of this
school system for 1970-71?
A Somewhere in the neighborhood of $26 million.
Q How much is the state providing the school system
for 1970-71?
A I'm sorry; I do not know.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q How much federal funds are you receiving for this
school year?
A Somewhere between one and two million dollars.
Q What percentage of your budget involves cost of
transporting pupils?
A That would be relevantly small; I do nst know what
it is.
Q Do you have an approximate figure?
A Not on a percentage basis. I believe the cost
of transportation somewhere, the total cost is somewhere
between two and three hundred thousand dollars.
Q To transport the 18,000 students?
A I believe that's correct. Between two and three
hundred thousand dollars is the operation cost.
Q I believe, again just to make sure, your report
here shows that you transport on an average 18,104 students
per day?
A Yes.
G Mr. Ward, in order to have some racial mix of
students in each school in the system, would it rot be
necessary for you to pair some of those schools?
MR. W0MBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled. The question is would it
be necessary to pair in order to have racial mix.
A Not absolutely necessary.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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0 You could rezone them?
A No, they could not be rezoned.
Q Well, what other means do you know of that you
could use to accomplish some racial mixing in each school?
A The only method I would know is that you could
do it, would be Just to take certain sections of schools, of
school neighborhoods, and decide arbitrarily that they would
be assigned to another school and transport them to the
other school district, to a school in another district.
Q That's basically what you would be doing in
pairing, isn't it?
A Not as I understand pairing.
Q How do you understanding pairing?
A As I understand pairing, it's taking two schools
that are adjacent and using part of the grades for all of
the schools within the district, and the other portion on
the grade level at the other school for all of the students
in the district.
Q That is one method that you could use in order to
mix students in this school system?
A That has been one that has been used in some
communities.
Q What do you mean by clustering?
A The general interpretation that I understand in
connection with clustering is taking more than twD schools
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that are in reasonable proximity and then dividing the
students, mixing the students and dividing the schools in
the same general vicinity.
Q Would you give us an example?
A I could give you the example that Dr. Larsen
proposed when he was here in court before. He proposed, 1
believe, the mixing or the clustering of Lowranoe, Kimberly,
Moore, Whitaker, Sherwood Forest and Speas, I believe, as
a cluster of six schools.
G Would not that be a means by which you could
accomplish some racial mixing in each school in the system?
A It could be done with a substantial amount of
transportation and assignment of students to scltools away
from their own neighborhood.
On the matter of substantial transportation, would
you consider a student being transported twenty-five miles
one way as substantial?
A I think that would depend on the makeup of the
neighborhood, sir.
Q Would you consider a student being transported
fifteen miles one way as substantial?
A Again that would depend on the neighborhood.
Q Would you tell us what you mean by how it would
depend on the neighborhood?
A A neighborhood would consist of a general cluster
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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of people who might live in a locality and have the same
general relationship for some reason. In a rural area,
that community would be rather large. In an urban area,
that would be rather small.
Q Would you call the district of North High School
a community area?
A It is an area made up of a number of smaller
communities.
0 Would that be a neighborhood school?
A It would have that concept when you think of the
high school level.
Q Would the district for East be a neighborhood
district?
A It could be classified, I think, in that concept.
Q So a district can be rather large in order to be
a neighborhood?
A It depends whether it's elementary, junior or
senior high school.
Q I have before me the principal’s monthly report
for Petree Elementary district.
MR. WOMBLEr What period?
MR. CHAMBERS: For the period August through
September, 1969.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) It shows that the students
there are being transported on the first trip about seven anc
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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a half miles.
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Why, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: He is making a statement that it
doesn't show, Your Honor. It doesn’t show how far the
students are being transported.
THE COURT: Let’s look at that.
MR. WOMBLE: It shows the length of the trip; it
doesn't show how far any particular pupil is transported
MR. CHAMBERS: It shows that the trip with this bus
runs 15.2 miles a day.
THE COURT: I'm going to sustain it. You can
examine him about it and bring out the same thing.
All right; go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Does the report there show that
the bus trip is an average of 15.2 mile on the first trip
per day?
A Yes, it does.
Q Now, would that be a neighborhood for an elementary
school?
A Without knowing the bus trip, I would not be able
to answer the question.
Q Well, I'm trying to find out what you mean by
substantial. Would ten miles a day be substantial?
A It might be in an urban neighborhood, and it might
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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not be in a rural neighborhood.
Q What would make it substantial? Are you concerned
primarily with the time in getting to and from school?
A Time is a factor and distance is a factor, and
also your ability to get a child to the nearest location
where he could receive the educational program.
0 If the Court were to find this system still
segregated and were to require that you redraw some attend
ance zones or pair or cluster some schools, now we’re trying
to find out what you consider to be substantial or expensive
in terms of transporting some pupils to school. Do you
have any standards that you know of?
A Not in terms of miles and distances that you can
use except as a child’s home relates to his school.
Q What you are principally concerned with is pre
serving the neighborhood schools?
A That’s the concept on which we have worked, yes.
Q And in doing that, you have retained over 80 per
cent of your black students in black schools and over 80
percent of your white students in white schools?
A I have not calculated that, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, the plan you all have sub
mitted on the majority to minority transfer, with that
provision in the plan, that is dependent upon transports!-
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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tion being provided of course?
THE WITNESS: Yes. The School Board has agreed
that any child who requests a transfer from a majority
to minority, that the School Board will provide trans
portation and that that person would have first priorityr
and also that the person would be granted permission
up to the capacity of the building plus ten percent,
which would give a greater opportunity for those
students to have an opportunity to go to a school of
a different race.
THE COURT: Well, under present school law, it
might be that you couldn’t comply with that provision.
THE WITNESS: This would not require, or the
Board did not propose to use 3tate money, but it
proposed to use local money to provide this transporta
tion, to give this added incentive to the students to
move from a majority to a minority.
THE COURT: Than, as you understand it, even if
the state law should remain that within the city areas
transportation could not be provided, if it remains
as it is as you understand it, the local Board could
and would furnish the fluids to underwrite transporta
tion for the majority to the minority transportation?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, this is what the Board
proposes to do.
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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MR. CHAMBERS: May I follow it up Just a minute?
THE COURT: All right.
(By Mr. Chambers) Did the Board make any estimai
on how much it would cost, the transportation for this
provision?
A The Board doesn't have any way to make an
accurate estimate, but studies are being made it’s
proposed to put money in the budget to provide for some
transportation.
Q You don’t have any estimate?
A We do not at this point.
Q Do you have any expectation, Mr. Ward, that any
white student will transfer into one of the black schools?
A I can’t answer that question.
Q Has it happened?
A A few, but very few.
Q And the same has been true of black students
transferring to white schools?
A We have right many more blacks transferring to
white.
Q But the percentage still has not been very great?
A It’s not a high percentage. We have had a sub
stantial number to transfer.
Q On the matter of first priority, you're talking
about first priority to students who might live outside the
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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district requesting assignment to that particular district.
Does the black student who requests an assignment to a white
school have first priority, or do the white students at
that district?
A Not over the white students in the district, but
he has first priority from anybody on the outside.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have no further questions.
A And the capacity has been expanded ten percent
to give a greater opportunity.
THE COURT: I know these are difficult - we have
a large system - to remember facts and figures and so
forth. Is this ten percent realistic? If the school
is already crowded, that ten percent doesn’t have much
meaning. There Just isn't any more room. Is that a
realistic situation whereby there is enough room in
these schools that if you got a substantial request for
transfer, could it be done? Or is the school up to
capacity so that it wouldn't have any meaning?
THE Y/ITNESS: Some of the schools are up to
capacity, but there are a substantial number of schools
that could take additional students. Now, a child
might not be able to get his first request, but the
School Board on its application blank has provided for
four places for a child to apply for first, second,
third choice, and if the first choice was over capacity
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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and we do have some schools that are over capacity,
then his second or third choice would be granted.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble. We can go a
while here.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) In fact, under the Board's policy
there is no limit on the number of choices that a student
can make, is there?
A There is no limit to the number, and the School
Board proposes in its assignment plan to give every student
a list of the schools that have available capacity.
Q Mr. Ward, on direct examination, Mr. Chambers
after asking you about the proposed modifications as filed
by the School Board for next year - that is elementary,
junior high and senior high schools - I believe concluded
with a question that stated that the proposals would only
transfer black students to white schools, and if I got your
answer correct, you indicated that he was correct in that
statement. Would that be true with respect to the junior
high school level?
A No, it would not. We had discussed elementary,
junior and senior high school levels. That is true at the
high school level and true at the elementary level. At the
junior high school, all the students from Petree and Ibraham
would be assigned to Carver, which would be assigning white
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to black.
0 Heretofore Carver School has been either all black
or predominantly black?
A Predominantly black.
G Mr. Ward, I show you the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education pretrial Exhibit No. 1, which has
now been identified today as Defendants' Exhibit 42. Would
you please state what that is?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 42
for identification.)
A This is a listing of the school building capacities
and the criteria on which the capacity was based, showing
the 1969-70 capacity and the 1970-71 capacity, showing a
ten percent above normal capacity and an indication to show
which school would be up to or over capacity.
Q For this coming school year?
A For the coming school year, based upon our estimate
enrollment for next year.
Q In an exhibit that has already been filed in this
case at the earlier hearing, there was a listing of capaci
ties of the various schools. I believe the capacities
shown in the exhibit already on file with the court are the
capacities shown in the second column as being total
capacity in this Defendants' Exhibit 42, is that correct?
A That is correct.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q Now, would you please explain the first column—
well, explain each of the columns in this Exhibit 42.
A The first column which gives the 1969-70 capacitie*
is the column which we have in former years called the
normal capacity of the school, and it was originally based
on the pupil-teacher ratio about 1965-66. At that time our
maximum capacity, or the one that is rated total capacity,
gave an allowance of two additional pupils for every standarc
teacher station, and that's how the total capacity was
determined, and that was the capacity that we used for
restricting pupils from outside the attendance district to
attend the school.
Q Was that the reason that that was the capacity
that was listed in the exhibit already filed with the court?
A That's the reason we used the normal capacity and
the total capacity, but as it related to court at that time,
the total capacity figure was the one that had bearing on
the transfer of students, and that's the only reason it was
on the list. In the third column is listed normal capacity
as determined by our estimated pupil-teacher ratio at
various levels for 1970-71. And the fourth column is called
the maximum capacity, is ten percent more than the capacity
shown in the third column or the normal capacity which is
determined by the pupil-teacher ratio.
Q Have the capacities shown in the two righthand
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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columns for the 1970-71 school year been approved by the
School Board?
A Yes, they have been approved by the School Board.
Q So that as a result of the recomputation of
capacities based upon the pupils to be assigned, or who
may be assigned to each classroom for the coming year, the
net result will be to increase the normal capacity of each
school for 1970-71 over the normal capacity you had before,
is that correct?
A That's true in most instances. There are some
minor variations where adjustments were made in the use of
classrooms, but in most cases that is true.
Q And it will also mean that for the purpose of
granting majority to minority transfers during the coming
year, there will be more - there will be a greater possi
bility of a child seeking such a transfer to have his
transfer approved than would have been true under the total
capacity as heretofore established by the school system, is
that correct?
MR. CHAMBERS: I object, Your Honor. Mr. Womble
said there is a greater possibility of a child seeking
transfer. I don't see how it’s possible for this
witness to testify to that.
THE COURT: Overruled, if you can answer. I take
it it would be simply an opinion about it as superinten-
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R Sc A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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dent, and I w i l l as s u m e i t to b e such, o f course.
Overruled.
A T h e r e is g r e a t e r o p p o r t u n i t y because the maximum
c a p a c i t y as shown in thi s c o l u m n f o r 1970-71 is greater in
m o s t i n s t a n c e s t h a n the m a x i m u m c a p a c i t y w h i c h we have used
i n the past. So it w o u l d give a greater opportunity for
transfer.
MR. C H A M B E R S : I m o v e to st r i k e in t h a t it's n o t
r e s p o n s i v e to the question.
TH E COURT: M o t i o n denied.
Q (By Fir. W o m b l e ) U n d e r th e B o a r d p o l i c y of
a l l o w i n g t r a n s f e r s a n d of g i v i n g p r i o r i t y to m a j o r i t y to
m i n o r i t y t r a n s f e r requests, if t r a n s f e r s r e s u l t i n the
s w i t c h i n g of the r a c i a l m a k e u p o f a p a r t i c u l a r s c h o o l so
t h a t the race f o r m e r l y i n the m a j o r i t y b e c o m e s m i n o r i t y -
strike t h a t - so t h a t the rac e f o r m e r l y in the m i n o r i t y b e
c omes t h e m a jority, t h e n t h o s e p u p i l s m a y still h a v e the
p r i v i l e g e of t r a n s f e r r i n g to a n o t h e r school. Is t h a t corre*
A T hat i3 correct.
T H E COURT: Y o u m e a n d u r i n g the y e a r ? Y o u f ind
tha t a stud e n t t r a n s f e r s o v e r a n d s u d d e n l y t h e r e are
m o r e w h i t e s t h a n blacks, a n d i f h e w a n t s to h e can
s till t r a n s f e r d u r i n g the sc h o o l year?
T H E W I T N E S S : A s s i g n m e n t s are c l o s e d as o f the
2 8 t h of August, Just at the b e g i n n i n g o f the school
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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year, so this would not occur during the school year.
THE COURT: During the school year.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q (By Fir. Womble) Or any time up to that time?
A It could occur anytime up to the 28th of August.
This special majority to minority transfer is granted up
until June the 1st in order that we would have time to
make plans for it. Then other transfers granted up to
August 28th, which is about the time school starts. So this
would not occur during the school year.
Q Now, when you say other transfers, you don’t mean
to say that majority to minority requests may not be made
after June 1st, do you?
A No. Any transfer can be made after June 1, but
after that time requests would be granted on the basis of
the time requested. That's the priority. And no transpor
tation would be granted - no special transportation would
be granted to any student after June the 1st for transfer
reasons, if the transfer request comes after June 1st,
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I'd like to go on for a
little bit longer, but when you do get to a point in
your examination so that we can stop without too much
interference, why, we will.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, sir.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I now show you
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Defendant Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education’s
Pretrial Exhibit No. 7, which has been identified today as
Defendants’ Exhibit 43.
MR. CHAMBERS: You said it was number 7?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 43 for identification.)
Q I ask you to explain what that is, please.
A This is the pupil assignment policy for 1970-71,
which was revised in April by the staff and approved - the
revision approved by the School Board. This is the assign
ment plan for 1970-71.
Q With respect to the choice of transfer, would
you please Just read it? I expect that would be the
clearest way to show what it is. Paragraph 3.
MR. CHAMBERS: Object to that, Your Honor. I
have a copy of the exhibit, and I don't see— I think
it speaks for itself.
THE COURT: I think that's true of most of this
that you all are doing, but I am presuming you want
to get it before me. We can either stop and I'll read
it, or have him read it. Go ahead. Overruled.
A Section 3 refers to the transfer to school in
another zone. "A pupil may transfer from the school to
which he is assigned only under the following conditions:
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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The parent, guardian, or other adult person acting as a
parent, of any pupil who has been assigned in accordance
with the provision of paragraph 2 above—
0 (By Mr. Womble) What is "2 above"?
A Paragraph 2 above is the assignment of attendance
zones and the assignment of pupil in his geographic attend
ance zone. "May apply to the Board for reassignment of
such pupil for the ensuing school year to any school serving
the pupil’s grade and located in any other attendance zone.
Such application for reassignment shall be in writing on t o n
which will be freely provided in the offices of all princi
pals and the superintendent for that purpose. All applica
tions received on or before June 1st will be approved on
the following basis: a. Majority to minority requests
(i.e., where the pupil is requesting transfer from a school
in which his race is in the majority to a school in which
his race is in the minority) will be given first priority,
and will be approved even though the granting of the request
will result in overcrowding, up to 10 percent above the
normal rated capacity of the school to which transfer is
being made. This will apply to as many alternate choices
as the applicant designates, where his first choice cannot
be approved due to excessive overcrowding. Free school
bus transportation will be made available for pupils who
make majority to minority transfers, who reside one and one-
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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half miles or more from the school to which they transfer
and whose applications are received by June 1st. Where
some but not all such applications cannot be approved
because of overcrowding, priority among such applicants
shall be given on the basis of proximity of the schools to
the homes of the pupils. Section B—
THE COURT: How much more of this do we have,
Mr. Womble?
THE WITNESS: About the same amount that I read.
THE COURT: How about letting me have that and
I'll look at it. I presume you want to move from here
to something else about that?
MR. WOMBLE: I just want to make it clear what the
policy is, Your Honor. Actually I think he read
actually two-thirds of it, rather than just half of it.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead then.
A "Section B. After giving priority to majority
to minority requests as above provided, all other applica
tions received on or before June 1st will be approved up to
but not in excess of the normal rated capacity of the school
to which transfer is requested, and no special transportation
will be provided in such cases. Where some but not all such
applications can be approved because of overcrowding,
priority among such applicants shall be given on the basis
of proximity of the school to the homes of the pupils, and
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applications may be made after June 1st to and including
August 28th, but applications made during that period will
be approved in order of receipt up to but not in excess of
the normal rated capacity of the school, without regard to
race, color or national origin, and without special trans
portation being provided. School capacity standards shall
be applied uniformly throughout the schools of the system.”
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I believe that is
probably a satisfactory point at which to break for
lunch.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take a recess until
1:45.
(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned to reconvene
at 1:45 p.m.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, this morning you were
asked about the distance across the Whitaker School district
from north to south, and I believe you testified that it
was two miles and maybe two and a half miles?
A Yes.
Q What is the general shape of that district?
A It is somewhat rectangular, with a point in the
northern portion.
Q And it is longer from north to south than it is
from east to west?
A Almost twice as long.
Q And where is Whitaker School located within the
district?
A Almost in the center.
Q So the distance from anypoint in the district to
Whitaker School would be no more than half the distance
from north to south?
A That's correct.
Q With respect to transportation, you were asked
whether or not the schools have activity buses. Do all
schools have activity buses?
A The junior and senior high schools have activity
buses.
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Q Does the Board of Education pay any of the
operating costs of those buses?
A No, it does not.
Q What financial participation is there by the
Board of Education with respect to activity buses?
A The School Board buys the activity bus or replaces
the activity bus, but the maintenance and operation costs
are covered by the school.
Q You say it's covered by the school. Does the
Board of Education make any appropriation to the school
that would enable them to pay for that, or do they get
their money for operating the bus elsewhere?
A They get their money for operation elsewhere. It
comes from the activity funds.
Q How do they generate money in the activity funds?
A The biggest source of revenue for senior high
schools is through athletic contests. In Junior high and
elementary they have a great deal more difficulty. Some
of them do it by candy sales, magazine sales, and things
of that nature, and by picture sales to the students.
Q I believe Mr. Chambers asked you how much the
appropriations from the state amounted to per pupil for
bus transportation, and I believe you testified that it
was $16.00 or $17.00, something like that, a year?
A Yes.
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C Did that figure include the money that is put
into the school system transportation program by the local
Board of Education?
A No, it did not. I estimated this morning $16.50,
I believe the average figure for the state that we used
earlier was $17.50, and the local Board of Education for
this extra transportation for elementary school, it’s
approximately CIA.00 per child.
0 Did you say tliat that $4.00 was to provide for
early afternoon trips to get elementary children home and
to provide transportation for special education children in
the schools?
A That is correct.
Q Mow, with reference to the elementary children,
what time do they get out of school?
A 2:30 in the afternoon.
Q And what time do the Junior and senior high school
children get out of school?
A It varies a little bit, but shortly after 3*00,
about 3:10 or 3:15.
Q With reference to the extra money for elementary
school children’s transportation, is that so they go home
right after they get out of school? Is that the idea?
A Yes, they leave immediately after they are dis
missed at 2:30, and most of the same buses come back and
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pick up Junior and senior high school students about 3:15,
so that they can go home immediately after they are dis
missed.
Q And except for that additional appropriation,
elementary school children would have to wait for the
others in order to get a ride home?
A That is correct, and it would make it even later
than that, because the buses would have to leave the Junior
and senior high school and then go to the elementary schools
before the children could be loaded.
THE COURT: I don't quite understand. The same
buses that transport the elementary children leave on
the second trip?
TIIE WITNESS: The drivers usually have study halls
the last period of senior high day. They go to the
elementary school, take the buses and take the elemen
tary children home. They then come back to the Junior
and senior high schools and pick up the students at
Junior and senior high level around 3:15 and take them
home.
THE COURT: Well, how do you work it in the
morning? Doesn't school take up at the same time?
THE WITNESS: It takes up at the same time, but
the bus transportation in the morning is part combined
and part single. Of course the buses may be a little
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heavier loaded than at the elementary in the afternoon,
and we do not use quite all the buses in the afternoon
that we used in the morning on both shifts.
Q (By Mr. Y/omble) Mr. Ward, I refer you to
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 66, the school monthly transportation
bus report, and I would just like to have you clarify a
couple of points that were asked about on direct examination.
And I am directing your attention to the first report for
the period of February 10 to March 9, relating to Bolton
Elementary School. Do you have it there, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, I have it.
Q In the fourth column where it calls for the
average daily route mileage by trips, and under the first
trip column, it shows 16. Now, what does that 16 refer to?
A That 16 is the total mileage that the driver would
make from his home, around his bus trip, to the school, and
back home again. So the distance that he would travel from
his home to the school would be 8 miles.
Q Now, on this particular report, looking over to
the right, as to the school, the 16 miles would refer to
M s getting to what school?
A To the combination of Bolton-Dalton, which are
side by side.
Q And then the second trip column, wMch shows 12
miles, would be for what trip?
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A That would mean that he would leave these schools
in the morning and make a second trip to pick up students
and back to the school, the combination of the morning and
the afternoon trip would be 12 miles. So the trip at any
one time would be six miles.
Q And then the third trip column would indicate
what mileage?
A This is a high school bus driver, and that mileage
would be the distance in this instance from Dalton, where
he unloaded his students, driving his bus to Reynolds High
School where he's a student, and then back to Dalton to
pick up his load in the afternoon. That would be the round
trip from the school where the distribution of the students
terminates to the high school which he attends.
Q In other words, the distance - the total mileage
that he would drive that day from his home until he got
back to his home with the bus would be 16 plus 12, would
be 28 plus 6, would be 3^ miles?
A That’s correct.
Q And the mileage that he would travel in the
morning taking children to school would be half of that,
or 17 miles?
A Well, half of that less the six miles, which the
students wouldn't actually be traveling.
Q I'm talking about the mileage he goes, the net
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mileage he travels
A Yes, 17.
Q Not the mileage that the pupils go, but the
mileage the bus driver himself goes.
A That's correct, it would be 17.
Q It would be 17 miles. Now, we're talking about
going from his home in the morning, as he picks up children
and takes them to school. He leaves his home and he travels
a total of 8 miles at which time he arrives at Dalton-Bolton
and unloads his first load of children?
A That's correct.
Q He then leaves Bolton-Dalton and travels six
miles and arrives back at Bolton-Dalton to unload his second
load of children?
A That's correct.
C He then leaves Bolton-Dalton and travels three
miles, afterwards he arrives at Reynolds High School where
he unloads his third load of children?
A That's true.
Q And then he does the same thing in reverse at the
end of the school day?
A That's right.
Q Mr. Ward, Mr. Chambers has asked you about Dr.
McGuffey's plan that he submitted to the School Board and
about which ycu said there had been hearings. I believe it
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has been referred to as the short-range plan. Did Dr.
McGuffey submit two plans to the School Board?
A Yes, he did. He submitted also a long-range plan.
Q So that his total report to the Board consisted
of both a long-range and a short-range plan?
A Yes, it did.
G I show you now a document that has been marked
for identification as Defendants* Exhibit 44 and ask you if
that is a copy of the long-range plan?
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants* Exhibit No. 44
for identification.)
A Yes, it is.
G Were there material differences between the long
and short-range plans submitted by Dr. McGuffey?
A Yes, in two general areas there was a substantial
difference in the recommendation of the two plans. In the
short-range plan, the elementary school was 1 through 6;
the Junior high 7 through 9; and the senior high 10 through
12. In the long-range proposal, it was either K through 5
or 1 through 5, and 6 through 8, and 9 through 12 in the
long-range proposal.
G In other words, your present plan of operation is
the so-called 6-3-3 plan?
A Yes.
G Which is the same as his short-range plan?
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A Yes.
Q But his long-range plan would vary from the
present 6-3-3 to 6-3-4?
A Or 5-3-4. Including kindergarten, it would be
6-3-4.
Q Now, what was the second major difference between
those two plans?
A In the Anderson School district, in the short-range
plan there was a proposal to close Forest Park and Mebane as
elementary schools, and to close Anderson as Junior and
senior high school, and to use Anderson as an elementary
school. In the long-range plan his proposal is to continue
or to use Forest Park as an elementary school, to build a
new school to replace Mebane, and to use Anderson as a
Junior high school in the long-range plan, and of course
that is inconsistent with the proposal in the short-range
plan.
Q So his short-range plan would convert Anderson
f r o m a Junior-senior high school to an elementary school?
A Yes.
Q And would close Forest Park and Mebane and send
those children to Anderson, is that correct?
A That is correct.
0 Whereas his long-range plan called for the use of
Anderson as a Junior high school?
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A That is right.
Q And using Forest Park as an elementary?
A That’s correct,
Q And building a new Mebane Elementary?
A That's right.
Q And if that suggestion were followed, then you
would have to pull all of the Junior high school program
out of Anderson for some intermediate period of time and
use it in the interim for an elementary school and then
reestablish a Junior high school in Anderson to proceed
with your long-range plan, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, what was Anderson built for in the first
place?
A It was originally planned as a Junior high school,
and in the process of addition and so forth, it was created
into a Junior-senior combination.
Q Is it a good facility for a Junior high school?
A It is an excellent facility for a Junior high
school.
0 Is it a good facility for an elementary school?
A No, it is not a good facility for an elementary
school. It wasn’t designed for that purpose.
Q What is the difference, what are the principal
differences in the design of a school for Junior high
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school purposes and the design of a school for elementary
school purposes?
A Basically a Junior high school is designed with
all of its rooms for special purposes, special purpose rooms
to teach special subjects, and many of them are specialized
rooms with specialized equipment. In an elementary school,
you basically provide two general types of all-purpose rooms
for primary students, which is generally larger than the
average classroom at the Junior high level, with the adapta
tion of furniture, equipment, chalkboards and so forth, to
meet the needs of the primary child. It is generally true
of elementary schools that a room would be designed specifi
cally for the purpose of teaching the child at that grade
level.
Q What about laboratory facilities?
A Laboratory facilities, gymnasiums, things of this
nature, are not required in the elementary school but they
are available at Anderson.
Q Now, under the proposed modification of the
existing pupil assignment plan as adopted by the Winston-
Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education, what use would be
made of Anderson?
A It would be continued to be used as a Junior high
school.
G While we’re on Anderson, the proposed modification
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plan of the Board of Education calls for the discontinuance
of the senior high school at Anderson?
A That’s correct.
Q What was the enrollment in the senior high school
portion of Anderson this year, in round figures?
A Something over 400, around 450, I believe.
Q Is it desirable to have a senior high school of
that size in the same building with a Junior high school?
A It is not desirable to have Junior and senior
highs both in the same building at any time, and the size of
Anderson is much smaller than a minimum desire for a high
school. You have to have at least 1,000 or 1,200 to give
the full program that ought to occur at a high school.
Q And under the proposal of the Board of Education,
the senior high school at Anderson would be closed and those
pupils would be sent where?
A The pupils who live in the district would be
assigned to Parkland, and those who live outside the district
would be assigned to the high school in the district in
which they live.
Q Now, under the McGuffey short-range plan, Forest
Park Elementary would be closed, is that right?
A Yes.
Q And under the McGuffey long-range plan, what use
would be made of Forest Park?
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A It would be used as an elementary school as It is
now being used.
Q And under the proposal of the Board of Education,
what will Forest Park be used for?
A It will be continued to be used as an elementary
school.
Q Which would tie in with Dr. McGuffey’s long-range
plan?
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to that, Your Honor. I
object to the misleading, because it doesn't reflect
the complete proposal of Dr. McGuffey as to that
school.
THE COURT: I'll let you examine him on that
phase of it to bring it out more completely. Over
ruled .
Q (By Hr. Womble) Now, directing your attention to
the area in the Kimberly Park-Carver Crest section, and the
Whitaker School area, what does Dr. McGuffey's short-range
plan propose?
A The short-range plan proposed the closing of
Carver Crest with the assignment of the special education
students from Brunson to Carver Crest, and the reorganization
of the Whitaker district be Carver Crest, Kimberly Park, and
also the Moore and Ardmore districts, I believe.
Q And under the McGuffey short-range plan, the
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children who lived in the area immediately surrounding
Carver Crest would go where to school?
A The majority of them, I believe, were assigned to
Brunson and part of them to Whitaker. Brunson is to the
south and Whitaker to the west.
Q Now, Whitaker is approximately how far from the
Carver Crest area? Could you measure that?
A A little less than two miles, about one and three-
quarters.
Q And how far is Carver Crest from the homes in the
existing Carver Crest area?
A All of the students live less than half a mile.
G Is the Carver Crest School a good elementary
school facility?
A Yes, it is.
Q How old is it?
A It was built in 1950.
G Under the McGuffey short-range plan, where would
the children now assigned to the Kimberly Park area go to
school?
A The children living in the Kimberly Park area east
of the Cherry-Marshall Expressway would continue to go to
Kimberly Park, and those on the west would be assigned to
Whitaker.
Q Those west of the Cherry-Marshall?
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A Yes.
Q Would go to Whitaker?
A Yes.
Q How far is that area from Whitaker School?
A It's a little more than a mile and a half.
Q Now, how far are the residences of the children
in the existing Kimberly Park area from Kimberly Park School?
A They are all within a half a mile of the school.
Q Now, the distances that you have stated from the
Carver Crest and Kimberly Park areas to Whitaker School have
been by road or by straight line?
A Straight line.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I’d like to object to
all of this testimony as irrelevant. As I understand,
the question before the Court is whether the Board has
a plan that complies with the constitution, and we're
not talking about any distances here. Dr. McGuffey was
hired by the School Board, and I think that this line
of questioning is objectionable for two reasons. One
is that this is a statement of an employee, or a person
contracted by the School Board, and secondly because
what we're talking about is how far kids are now in
what we contend are segregated areas of the school, and
how far—
THE COURT: Didn't you go into this area - maybe
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not in this detail, but questions were asked, as I
recall, about the distances of these school areas.
MR. CHAMBERS: Not in the McGuffey plan as com
pared with the Board, we certainly did not.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we would agree with him
a hundred percent if the plaintiffs hadn't gone into it,
and if the McGuffey plan hadn't been put into evidence
by the plaintiffs. It seems to us that all those things
having been done—
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to point out one further
thing. The Court indicated that it had two days to
hear the case, and the only reason we introduced the
McGuffey plan and the only reason we introduced the
part of the plan we did is to show that something can
be done to desegregate the schools. Now, if we want
to, if we want to go into each school - as apparently
is being done now - I don't see how we'll finish before
Friday.
THE COURT: Mr, Chambers, I want it understood
right now that I will hear you people in this, and when
I said two days, I was hoping that we could conclude
this in two days. But this matter against the other
matters, many matters that I have, has first priority,
and if we don't conclude it in these two days, as soon
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as I can finish up a court or something and have some
time, I'll get back to it and try to hear it as
expeditiously as I can. But I don't want you people
to feel like I am just saying to you that two days is
all I'm going to hear of this. I didn't mean it that
way. I am still hoping that we can expedite this and
get on with it. I think the evidence on the pre
liminary injunction was right voluminous and pretty
well descriptive of this system, and I was hoping that
two days would be sufficient. But I will hear you
people as long as you have got anything - I will hear
all parties as long as you have anything that is in
any way near competent to the issue. I will hear you
until you are through, but I can't do it in sequence
by days. All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, 1 believe the last
series of questions related to the distance from Whitaker
to Kimberly Park and Carver Crest areas, and that you stated
that your testimony was as the crow flies in a straight
line?
A IdLght.
Q '.(1101 lies between the Carver Crest area and the
Whitaker area, in between the Kimberly Park area and the
Whitaker area, as you go in a straight line?
A Children's Home has large acreage in between there,
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and there are no streets directly across.
Q So that you would either have to go to the south
and around or to the north and around in order to get to
Whitaker School from the Carver Crest and Kimberly Park
areas?
A That’s correct.
Q To Whitaker School?
A That's correct.
Q And that would be a greater distance materially
than the straight line?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to that.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'm objecting to the phraseology
used, materially, greater distance.
THE COURT: All right. Sustained. You may re
phrase it, Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Would you estimate how much
additional distance you would have to travel in going to
Whitaker from those areas, or what the total distance would
be as you would have to go by road; that probably would be
better.
A It would add, I believe, a little more than half
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a mile to the distance to go around the Children's Home
property.
Q All right, Mr. Ward, you may sit down. I believe
you testified that under the Dr. McGuffey short-range plan,
Carver Crest would be used for special education and adminis
trative purposes, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What would Carver Crest be used for under the
Dr. McGuffey long-range plan?
A It would be used as an elementary school as it now
is.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further, Mr.
Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, you indicated that
Dr. McGuffey prepared a map which he submitted to the Board
along with his proposed plan?
A He did present some maps to the Board.
Q Do you have that map in your office?
A Yes.
Q Did he prepare a map for the long-range and the
short-range plan?
A Yes.
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Q And this Dap indicates the proposed zones that
he would utilize for the schools?
A I believe that’s correct.
MR. CHAMBERS: At this time, Your Honor, we
respectfully request that we be permitted to get a
copy of the maps and present them to the Court.
THE COURT: All right. Of course, you realize
now, when you present an exhibit, Mr. Chambers - and
I’m not trying to do that - I will give them the right
to examine him about it. It’s just like this plan we
put in. When can you bring the maps with you?
Tomorrow, Mr. Ward? Or did you want them before, today?
MR. CHAMBERS: I don’t want them before tomorrow.
Tomorrow would be fine.
THE COURT: Can you bring them with you tomorrow?
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I can have a copy
available by tomorrow, Your Honor. I'll see.
THE COURT: If you can bring us the original., we
can make copies later. If you could bring the ori
ginals with you and then we could make up copies for
the record.
THE WITNESS: All right,
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, are you telling the
Court that the reason the Board didn't adopt the McGuffey
plan was because in the long-range plan he had some schools
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he proposed to use as elementary schools which in the
short-range plan he planned to close?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. WOMBLE: For two reasons, Your Honor. First,
this is direct examination as far as he’s concerned;
not cross examination. And second, again he's under
taken to have this witness testify as to what might
be in the minds of a number of other people.
THE COURT: I believe Mr. Ward can handle that.
If he maybe doesn’t know, he'll say so, and if he does,
I urge him and I believe he will try to answer it.
Overruled.
A Will you restate the question?
q (By Mr. Chambers) You testified on cross examina
tion about some schools which in the short-range proposal
of Dr. McGuffey, he proposed to close, and in the long-range
plan he proposed to operate them. Now, my question is are
you telling the Court that the reason the Board did not
adopt the McGuffey plan was because of these matters that
you’ve Just testified to on cross examination?
A No, sir, I'm not attempting to tell the Court
that. I'm merely telling the difference between the two
plans.
Q Are you telling the Court that that in any way
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influenced or affected the Board's decision?
A No, I'm not attempting to tell the Court that.
Q In your opinion, did It in any way influence the
Board's decision?
A I cannot answer that question.
Q Do you have an opinion?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q You Just don't know?
I do not know whether it had any effect or not.
All right. Let's go through those differences
again. You said Dr. McGuffey's short-range plan would
continue your 6—3—3 grade structure?
A That's correct.
Q Now, let's find out, if we might, Mr. Ward, what
instructions did the Board give Dr. McGuffey with respect
to his work on the plan?
A What do you have in mind, sir?
Q I assume that the Board asked Dr. McGuffey to come
here?
A That's correct.
Q You were present when the Board decided to do that'1
A I wasn't present when he was given the specific
instructions.
Q You were not present?
A No, I was not.
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0 Could you tell who was present?
A The Chairman of the Board.
Q Is that Mr. Maready?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you know whether the Board voted any
instructions to be given to Dr. McGuffey as to what he was
to do?
A I don't believe the Board as a whole did vote
on any instructions.
Q Could you tell the Court how he came about coming
here?
A He was part of Dr. McGurkins Peabody Study, and
when that study was presented, it was determined that there
was not enough information about the future proposed plan
for school construction and assignment, and he was asked to
do an additional study in connection with that.
Q I think you indicated this morning that part of
that study was to suggest some method for further desegre
gation of the schools?
A That was part of it, I believe.
Q Now, how did he come about doing a short-range
proposal and a long-range proposal?
A There was no money available to go into a long-
range proposal, and I believe he was then asked to give a
statement as to what might be done immediately and then over
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a long period of time. I don't recall exactly how it was
stated.
Q So the short-range proposal came about because it
would involve less money and would permit some steps toward
desegregation of the schools?
A Steps that could be taken immediately.
Q Now, the long-range proposal talks about con
struction of schools and further steps in desegregating the
schools?
A Yes.
Q Now, the proposal to close Forest Park Elementary
School and to assign the students there to Anderson Elemen
tary School would promote integration of Anderson Elementary
School, would it not?
A Yes, it would.
Q And presently it is all black?
A Y/ell, there is no Anderson Elementary School. It
would have combined the enrollments of Mebane and Forest
Park into Anderson.
Q At the present, the junior-senior high school is
all black?
A That's correct.
Q And by assigning the Forest Park Elementary student^
to that school, along with the other students to be assigned,
the school would have been integrated?
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A. That’s correct.
Q That was the purpose for this proposal?
A I'm not sure that it was. I don't know what his
purpose was.
Q Doesn't he set it out in the report, the exhibit?
A I don't believe he does in that manner. It may
be; I haven't read it carefully to see if that were true.
Q I see. The effect of what he proposes.
A it does achieve that result.
Q Now, the Carver Crest Elementary School is
presently white or black?
A Black.
Q Would the result of his proposal in the area of
Carver Crest have been an integrated school?
A Yes, it would.
Q It would have eliminated some presently all black
and all white schools?
A It would achieve greater integration, not only in
Carver Crest but in some of the other schools around it.
Q In fact, the effect of his proposal, the short-
range proposal, would have achieved - as you said earlier -
more integration than the plan that you finally submitted
to the Court?
A Yes, it would have.
Q Now, let's look at the long-range proposal. Did
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he prepare zone lines for the long-range proposal?
A I believe that there were some lines for the long-
range proposal.
Q Does he project what the racial composition of
the schools will be as the result of the zone lines?
A I do not believe that’s contained in the report,
sir. Let me check to be sure. I don’t believe he has given
a breakdown in this report about the number of black and
white.
Q Let's take one example, Mr. Ward.
A All right.
Q He proposes to operate Forest Park Elementary
School as an elementary school.
A What page are you on, sir?
Q I was Just taking your testimony previously.
A All right. He does in the long-range proposal at
the Forest Park Elementary School,
Q He proposed to operate Anderson as a Junior high
school?
A That's correct.
Q The Forest Park Elementary district would include
the students now in the Anderson district?
A I'm not sure that I understood that question.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, this is the problem of
examining the witness without the map.
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THE COURT: Do you want to wait?
MR. CHAMBERS: With the Court’s permission, I
would like to, and I would like to be able to continue
the examination tomorrow.
THE COURT: You’re talking about the map that
Dr. McGuffey filed with his plan?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Somewhere in the informa
tion that I have before me, it tells me how many
children that are now being bused this year. Do you
remember what that was?
THE WITNESS: It's a little over 18,000.
THE COURT: Was there ever any estimate made
relative to the increase in busing that would be brought
about in the system if Dr. McGuffey*s plan - short-
range plan - had been put in effect? Was there ever
any computation about that?
THE WITNESS: I don’t believe there was.
THE COURT: From your examination of it, would
there have been an increase or decrease of the number
being bused, or about the same?
THE WITNESS: There would have been an increase
in the number that would have been bused. I don’t
know how big an increase or what the cost would be.
Students are assigned to the schools where they would
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be traveling a longer distance. As it is now, most of
the elementary schools are within the city and the
ones that would be changed in connection with this
plan have the students living within a mile and a
half of the school, and some of them would be moving
over longer distances. So it would take more transpor
tation, but I do not know how much.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything else,
Mr. Chambers, today, that you want to ask Mr. Ward?
I'll give you an opportunity to examine him tomorrow.
MR. CHAMBERS: I’ll Just wait until tomorrow.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, anything else you all want
to ask?
MR. WOMBLE: Just one other thing, Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Womble) I asked about the Anderson Junior-
Senior High School situation and the fact that under the
Board of Education's proposal the senior high would be dis
continued at Anderson and those pupils assigned to Parkland.
I don't believe I asked essentially the same thing with
respect to Carver Junior and Senior. What is the current
situation insofar as senior high school students go at
Carver?
A Carver has only about 250 senior high school
students, and in the School Board's proposal, it would be
closed and part of these students assigned to North and
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part to East.
Q And the educational reasons for closing Carver
Senior High would be basically the same as the reasons for
closing Anderson Senior High?
A Yes, the reasons would be essentially the same.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: I have a few questions.
MR. CHAMBERS: May I just pick up on that?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Do you know the capacity
presently of Carver Senior High School, Carver School?
A The capacity of the total school is - I think -
somewhere around 1,400, 1,200 or 1,400, but it was not
designed as a senior high school. It was designed for
grades 1 through 12.
Q I believe in your proposal you propose to make
some additions to North, or you have indicated that you
have already begun maPing those additions at North?
A That is not correct.* North has enough capacity
to take care of these students. East would be overcrowded.
Q Are you proposing to make some additions, or have
you made some additions, at East?
A The School Board at this point has not made any
specific decision in connection with that. Temporary
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facilities would be used at the moment to take care of this
movement at East.
Q You don’t presently have the facilities to
accommodate the students?
A Not quite enough to take care of them at East.
Q It would be possible, would it not, to make the
necessary repairs at Carver to accommodate 1,400 high school
students?
A Not by September 1970.
Q Would it be possible to make those repairs at
East by September 1970?
A It would be done at East by mobile units. The
basic facility for a high school at East is there.
Q How many mobile units are you adding to East?
A I think it's — I'm not sure of the exact numberj
I think it's about seven or eight that it would take.
Q Would the expense of making the additions at East
be more than it would be in converting Carver to a senior
high school?
A It wouldn't be nearly as much.
Q It would not be nearly as much as to convert
Carver to a senior high school?
A No. It would take substantially more to convert
Carver into a senior high school than it would the addition
at East.
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Q Do you have any estimates?
No, sir, I do not.
Q Carver is in a predominantly black neighborhood?
A Yes.
Q And East is out in the county?
A That’s correct.
In fact, all of the schools being closed by the
Board’s plan, they are black schools?
A That’s correct.
Q Anderson and Carver?
A Yes, they are to be closed.
Q Would you tell the Court why in view of the
Peabody report you would continue Atkins as a senior high
school and close Carver?
A Atkins is adequate in size, and Atkins was and is
designed for a senior high school. Carver is not designed
for a large senior high school.
Would you tell the Court what the recommendation
of the Peabody Committee was with respect to Atkins?
A I believe in the long-range that it would be dis
continued. I believe the long-range plan calls for a new
southeast and a new northeast senior high school, and Atkins
would be discontinued.
MR. CHAMBERS: That's all I have at this time,
Your Honor.
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RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Under the Board's proposal, would
Carver actually be closed?
A Not closed totally. This was only in reference
to the senior high school. Carver, in the Board's proposal,
would be used as a Junior high school and be fed by
Ibraham and Petree Elementary Schools.
Q And it would be an integrated school?
A Yes, it would.
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the word "integrated",
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (By Mr. Womble) It would be a school in which
there would be an anticipated enrollment of how many black
and how many white students?
A I don't have the figure. It's anticipated to
be 190 black and 3^0 white, for a total of 530.
Q In the Junior high school?
A That's at the Junior high level.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, during the course of these
hearings and so forth, it has come out that there is
a proposal to build a high school in the northeast and
one in the southeast. Are those plans sufficiently
definite that you could answer as to what would be
the effect when those schools come into being? Will
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there be schools closed, or will those schools simply
take care of the overage or crowding of the present
schools? Is there a plan? And I don't want you to be
guessing about it, but if there is a plan to your
knowledge about this, I'd like to know about it.
THE WITNESS: There is not a plan that the School
Board has actually adopted in terms of which schools
would be closed and what would be built. The McGuffey
plan, long-range plan, proposes a new northeast senior
high and a new southeast senior plant, and proposes
that Atkins be closed. Also of course, it proposes
that Anderson-Carver be closed, and then the two new
districts with the other remaining senior high schools
would make up the eight - I believe - senior high
school districts.
THE COURT: But under Dr. McGuffey's long-range
plan, Atkins would be closed, Anderson would be closed-
THE WITNESS: And Carver.
THE COURT: Ann Carver would be closed. Carver
as a high school?
THE V/ITNESS. Closed as a high school.
THE COURT: Mr. Price, I believe you had some
questions?
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Price) Kir. Ward, I believe Plaintiffs'
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VI
Exhibits 63 and 64 consisted of the modification of pupil
assignment plan adopted by the Board of Education and the
map showing the adoption of this plan of the assignment
area, is that correct?
A That's true.
Q Did the County Commissioners of Forsyth County
assist or direct the Board of Education in the preparation
of this plan or the map?
A No, not in any way.
Q Did the Board of Education consult with or seek
the approval of the Board of County Commissioners before
this plan was adopted?
A No, it did not.
Q Could you say to your knowledge that the Board of
County Commissioners played no part whatsoever in the
preparation of these plans?
A It did not to my knowledge,
Q In regard to what is termed the McGuffey plan,
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 65# I believe, being the short-range
plan, and Defendants' Exhibit 54, the long-range plan, as
far as you know—
MR. WOMBLE: 44, I believe that is. I think you
said 54; it's 44.
Q (By Mr. Price) Did the Board of County Commission
ers employ Dr. McGuffey as far as you know?
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A No.
Q Did they participate in any manner in the partici
pation of these plans to your knowledge?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Concerning Defendant Board of Education’s Exhibit
43, termed Pupil Assignment Plan for 1970-71 School Year,
did the Board of Education seek the approval of the Board
of County Commissioners before adopting this plan?
A No, they didn’t.
Q To your knowledge, did the Board of County
Commissioners assist or direct the Board of Education in
regard to the adopting of this plan?
A No.
MR. PRICE: That’s all.
MR. MOODY: Do we understand that Mr. Ward will
be back on the witness stand tomorrow?
THE COURT: Well, they have the privilege. I
will let them call him back, Mr. Moody. If you want
to reserve your right to ask questions—
MR. MOODY: Just about three questions is all I
want to ask him, but I'd like to reserve that until
tomorrow.
THE COURT: I'll let you do it; you call it to
my attention tomorrow if we overlook it.
MR, MOODY: Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: All right; you may come down*
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: I do that on the basis that some of
you might give it further consideration and not ask him
anything. So rather than do it now, we might save the
time. All right. Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: I’d like to call Mr. John Ingle.
Your Honor, we'd like to identify Plaintiffs' Exhibit
67, a copy of the minutes of the Winston-Salem Board of
Aldermen of December 2, 1921, taken from Volume 14,
page 355.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 67 for identification.)
MR. CHAMBERS: I’d like to identify Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 67, as a copy of the Judgment of the Forsyth
County Superior Court - that's 68 - of September 11,
1939.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 68 for identification.)
MR. MOODY: Do I understand you are introducing
this into evidence?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, we are.
MR. MOODY: We wish an objection to it for the
State defendants, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
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MI,. WOMBLE: We object to both of them.
THE COURT: You are now offering them into
evidence, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, we are.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Plaintiffs1
Exhibits 67 and 68 are received into the evidence,
and that counsel for the Board of Education, Wlnston-
Salem/Forsyth County, and the Superintendent and State
Board of Education object.
MR. PRICE: We'd like to Join in the objection on
these particular exhibits also.
THE COURT: And that the County objects, and the
objection is overruled. You will all get an exception
automatically to that ruling, so if there should be
error.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, just for the record,
I would like to make clear that the objection is to
the relevance of the document rather than its authen
ticity?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is that right?
MR. MOODY: That's correct as far as we're con
cerned.
MR. PRICE: Yes.
THE COURT: Counsel for all of the defendants
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state that the objection is to the relevance of these
two exhibits rather than to the authenticity of the
documents. All right.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Plaintiffs’ Exhi
bits Nos. 67 and 68 for identifica
tion, were received in evidence.)
WHEREUPON,
JOHN J. INGLE, JR.
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) State your name, please.
A John J. Ingle, Jr.
Q What is your address, Mr. Ingle?
A I reside at 135 Salem Circle, Raleigh, North
Carolina.
Q What is your present occupation?
A I am Director of the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill
Demonstration Project of the National Committee against
Discrimination in Housing.
Q How long—
MR. WOMBLE: Can you go back through that?
THE COURT: Yes; I didn’t get it either.
A I’m sorry. I’m employed by the National Committee
against Discrimination in Housing, Incorporated.
THE COURT: This isn’t a government committee?
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TILE WITNESS: No, sir, tliis is a private organiza
tion.
THE COURT: All right. Proceed.
G (By Mr. Chambers) How long have you served in
that capacity?
A For seven months.
Q /̂ re you working principally in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
G In the areas you indicated?
A Primarily in that area. I do go out of the area.
Q What is the purpose of the organization?
A To promote an end to racial discrimination in
housing and other discrimination.
Q Would you state your place of birth?
A Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
Q Did you grow up here in Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did you stay here before leaving?
A Well, I was born in 1936 and I left in 1966. I
was in the army for a little while, and in Chapel Hill for
a little while and worked briefly out of the city.
Q What occupation did you have here in the city?
A I was in the real estate business.
Q Would you describe what you did in the real estate
business?
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A Yes. I started as a salesman, as a salesman of
residential property, and as time went by I continued in
that capacity and I also became involved in the management
of multi-family residential property, and I was a broker
of commercial property on a limited scale, and did a little
bit of building.
Q Did your family own any real estate?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell the Court what areas of the city your
family held property.
A Well, all over, all types of property.
Q Did you ever have anything to do with the manage
ment of the real estate holdings of your family?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the Court what that consisted of?
A The property that my family owned that I managed
consisted primarily of residential rental property and
snail multiple family units, like four or five unit and
duplexes, some single-family dwellings. Most of the other
property was vacant land, so it didn't require any actual
management.
Q Did your work in the real estate business carry
you through or about the City of Winston very much?
A Yes, sir.
Q North, south, east and west?
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A That's correct; all of it.
Q Are you generally familiar where blacks reside
within the City of Y/inston?
A Yes, sir, at the time that I was here I was very
familiar with that.
Q Are you generally familiar with where whites
resided in the City of Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you tell us the approximate year that you
began working in real estate?
A 1959. In Winston-Salem it was 1961, early 1961.
Q Did you have your own brokerage firm?
A I didn't start my own brokerage firm, but later I
did.
Q And you now hold or you did hold before leaving a
brokerage license?
A Yes, sir.
0 M e r e you a member of the Real Estate Board - I
mean the Winston-Salem Board of Realtors?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you a member of multiple listing?
A The firm that I was employed by held membership
in the multiple listing service.
Q Would you explain to the Court what multiple
listing meant - consists of?
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A Brokers - this multiple listing is used primarily
for residential property, usually single family residences,
and the multiple listing service is a device by which
brokers pool their listings so that other brokers will be
informed as to what’s on the market, and they cooperate in
the selling of the property and split commissions.
Now, during the time that you were a member of
the Winston-Salem Board of Realtors, was there a Negro
member of that board?
A No, sir.
Q Was there a Negro member of multiple listing?
A No, sir.
Q In your work in real estate, did you keep up with
advertisements in the local newspaper about the sale or
rental of houses?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were sales and rentals of housing in the Winston-
Salem area advertised on the basis of race?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
MR. MOODY: Object.
THE COURT: If he knows, gentlemen, about that,
why wouldn’t it be competent?
MR. WOMBLE: The time that we’re talking about
would have some bearing on it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I realize he’s talking—
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MR. WOMBLE: I don't know when he's talking about.
MJi. MOODY j We think it ought to be related to
State action. We don't think he can Just bring in
somebody outside here and say black people are there
and black people advertise—
THE COURT: I realize that kind of goes to the
rate of it, and I realize that he's Just saying that
that's the way it is. It isn't necessarily tied in
to some action by the State, I don't think.
MR. MOODY: Shouldn't it be related to my clients
if it is to be admitted against me?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I don't think that
that is necessary here. I think the State takes the
position that It has no obligation at all to ensure
that state funds and state activities are— well, state
funds are appropriated and expended without considera
tion of race or that state activities are carried on
without— We Just simply take the opposite position,
and it's Just purely a matter of law whether they have
that obligation, and if the Court decides that they
don't have, then they don't have.
THE COURT: Well, while you're up, Mr. Chambers,
tell me here how this comes into play here. We know
that there are housing patterns - that over here there
is a large area of very good black citizens living, and
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over here - long before I came to Winston-Salem three
years ago - the whites live, and this is what Mr.
Ingle Is going to testify to.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I think Mr. Ingle can
go further.
THE COURT: All right. Well, maybe I am supposing
though, but in the absence of something that made them
stay there, I don’t see where this is important, and
maybe he's going to tie it up to the fact that the
State’s done something about it. I don't know.
MR. MOODY: I would hope that he would confine it
to the State Board of Education and the State Superin
tendent of Public Instruction, because they are the
two defendants in court and under focus. It seems to
me what he has charged against us ought to be related
to them. The State may have done a lot of things; I
don't know what all they have done.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I recall cases, there
are a line of decisions that followed that have clearly
pointed out that one cannot dissect the State, if the
City of Winston-Salem has created this problem that we
have now, that's a State problem, and the State has to
do something to get rid of it. If the Board of Educa
tion has created a problem, then it is a State problem
and the State has to do something to get rid of it. And
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that’s v/hat we understand the courts have held
MR. MOODY: You said the Board of Education is
responsible for what the local subdivision does?
MR. CHAMBERS: The Board of Education is respon
sible for what we contend to be a segregated system
here in Winston-Salem.
MR. MOODY: That's a mighty long jump.
MR. WOMBLE: Our objection also goes to the meat
of the matter - what the housing pattern, and the fact
that the Board of Education has nothing to do with
where anybody lives, and that insofar as the Board of
Education is concerned and its legal obligation to
operate a non-discriminatory unitary system under
which no child is barred on race or color, that the
constitution does not Impose upon the Board of Educa
tion the job of patrolling housing or the effects of
housing.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, if you had an ordinance
today that said everybody - all whites had to live
west of Interstate 40 - well, that would be south -
and all blacks had to live east and housing patterns
grew out of that, I think that's a State action and
it would involve your Board and it would involve the
State Board. But from the preliminary— I don’t know
of any in the last decade, any order here around
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Winston-Salem that said anybody had to live anywhere,
you know, and I haven't heard of any, and maybe we're
coming to something.
MR. MOODY: In 1914, the State against Darnell,
the Supreme Court upset that sort of plan here in
Winston-Salem. They passed an ordinance saying that
if the street was populated - when the majority was
white, it'd be white, and the majority of colored
would be colored, and the Supreme Court said no.
THE COURT: You all state what you want for the
record, and I'm going to overrule your objection. You
can state whatever you wish, so that the record will
be clear for you. Of course, by overruling your
objection you automatically get an exception.
MR. WOMBLE: In order that we won't have to
clutter the record with repeated objections on the
same ground, can it be understood, Your Honor, that
we are objecting to any testimony that relates to
discrimination or alleged discrimination in housing by
anybody other than the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County
Board of Education?
THE COURT: All right. Let the record accordingly
show, that the Board of Education so objects to any
question and answer - and that there is a motion to
strike the answer and the motion is denied.
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MR. MOODY: The State defendants are to be
included in that also, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let the record show that the State
Board of Education and the State Superintendent are
included.
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, if I may, if this is going
to be considered for this purpose of involving state
agencies, that Mr. Chambers seems to encompass everybody
as a state agency, I'd like to join in that also.
THE COURT: Also let the Forsyth County Board of
Commissioners accordingly be so considered under this
ruling and motion.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, just so I can make sure
that the record's clear, I understand the objection to
be that they have no responsibility for the discrimina
tion or any discrimination that might exist in the sale
or rental of housing, and that is the basis of the
objection we would have no objection to that being
considered with every question. If they have some
different reason that they would like to advance, they
should do it at the time so that we can get the record
clear.
THE COURT: All right, and let’s try this lawsuit
as conveniently and expeditiously as we can. You all
know the condition of the record now, and whatever you
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need to do to protect the rights of your clients, you
do it and I'll assist you in doing it - that is for
parties plaintiff or defendant. All right. Anything
further from this? All right, Mr. Chambers; you may
go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, you stated, I
believe, that at the time you were here and affiliated with
multiple listing that no black person was a member of
multiple listing?
A That's correct.
Q I ask you also whether in the advertisement of
real estate in the local newspapers, real estate was adver
tised on the basis of race?
A When?
Q During the period that you were here and working
in real estate.
A Frankly, I started to go look at some old news
paper copies so I could be more specific, but I didn't do
it this morning. My guess is that as late—
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained. You can't guess.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Just tell us what you know,
Mr. Ingle.
A Well, as far as being able to name a date and give
you an issue of a newspaper and say that there was an ad in
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there that set forth color, to use the popular terminology,
I couldn’t without going over the newspaper. Obviously I
couldn't do that. I’m Just familiar with the practice.
Q Well, what was the practice?
A The practice was to advertise properties that were
in all black areas as being for sale or for rent to colored.
Q What about properties in the white area?
A Well, it was advertised without any mention of
any sort of racial item.
Q What did this mean in the real estate business?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Well, he was a realtor. Are you
asking him what the meaning of this was in the trade?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A Well, obviously the term "for sale or rent to
colored" implied that other property was not for sale or rent
to colored people.
MR. WOMBLE: Object; move to strike.
THE COURT; I think in that context, being a
realtor, you could testify about a practice, but what
he is saying, Mr. Chambers, is that if it didn’t have
any designation - while some said for colored only -
that one would surmise from that that this that had no
designation was for white only. That would be a
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conclusion and something for me to find. I’ll allow
the motion to strike on that answer.
q (By Mr. Chambers) What was the practice, Mr.
Lngle, if the property was advertised without any racial
connotation?
A The practice was to show the property only to
prospective white purchasers.
Q And if it were advertised for colored, what was
the practice then?
A To show the property only to prospective black
purchasers or renters.
Q
basis?
Was multiple listing on a racially segregated
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled, if you know.
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the Court how this was carried out?
A Well, properties that were in traditionally black
residential areas that found their way into multiple listing
were identified as being for sale or rent to colored. Well,
let me correct that. Rental property didn't normally find
its way into multiple listing.
q Would property for sale in black areas find its
way into multiple listing?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Would that property be designated for colored?
A That's correct.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I have here some
extracts from multiple listing that Mr. Ingle gave me
today. I have not shown them to opposing counsel.
We very much would like them made exhibits in this
record. If counsel would like them authenticated, we
would be able to do that, and I would like to tender
them only for the purpose of corroborating what the
witness has testified.
THE COURT: Are those listings, Mr. Chambers,
back when Mr. Ingle was here?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: We're going to have a recess shortly.
Could you move along, Mr. Chambers, to something else
and let them examine them during the recess, and when
you get to a point where we are— I'd like to go on for
about five or ten minutes, but when you get to a point
that would cause as little break as possible in your
examination, why, we will stop for our recess.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, you indicated that
you were generally familiar with where blacks resided in
Winston during the period that you were here. Would you
tell the Court the dividing line* where you would indicate
the dividing line was between the blacks and the whites?
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A Mr. Chambers, that's a somewhat difficult question
for me, because I have sort of wiped Winston-Salem out of
my mind since 1966, and I don't remember street names and
various geographical guidelines and so forth. I suspect
that somebody could do that better than I, but I will
attempt to do it if you like.
Q Let me show you a map that has been introduced
into evidence which is the Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5, which is
a zone map of the City of Winston, December 14, 1930. The
zoning codes have also been introduced, and according to
the zoning codes, the A-l residential districts were for
whites, and the A-2 residential districts were for blacks,
and B-l for whites and B-2 for blacks, etcetera.
MR. MOODY: Is he talking about zoning ordinance?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Could you look at that map and
compare the zoning codes and tell us whether that map shows
basically where blacks and whites resided?
MR. MOODY: I object to that specifically, Your
Honor. If he's going to say it's zoned, I want to see
the zoning ordinance.
MR. CHAMBERS: It's already in evidence.
MR. MOODY: Did you give us a copy of it?
MR. CHAMBERS: That was introduced in the pre
liminary' hearing.
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THE COURT: Yes, that was introduced at the pre
liminary hearing. Well, overruled.
MR. MOODY: What this map is about is a zoning for
certain type structures; it isn’t one that shows where
races lived. And they’re asking him to point out
though on this map where the whites and the blacks
live. The zoning didn't attempt to segregate the races.
MR. MITCHELL: Your Honor, we'd like to object to
it as far as our defendants go on the basis that the
State - even under Mr. Chambers' plan here that our
Supreme Court has struck down exactly this sort of
ordinance—
MR. WOMBLEj Yes, this ordinance was struck down.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled. Go ahead.
A Did you say that B-2 was black and B-l was white?
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Yes.
A In all candor I have to admit that this map looks
kind of strange to me inasmuch as I wasn't born at the time
this map was drawn, but the patterns as I knew them later
appeared to show up to me, as I look at these various marks
on the map, as being the way it continued. The racial
patterns that I see here continued on into my time to a
large extent.
Q All right.
THE COURT: Let me see this map. Was 19^0 - that
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was the year that the case - I put one in my findings
of fact, and that was earlier though than that - 1940
was the case you all referred to that struck this
zoning law down?
MR. WOMBLE: It struck this one down, yes, sir.
There was one in 1914, I think it was——
MR. MOODY: This is Clinard, I think, against
Winston-Salem.
THE COURT: Which is the 1940 case?
MR. MOODY: Yes, that's my understanding.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, 1940.
THE COURT: Is there anything since 1940 by way
of ordinance that is before me or will be before me
whereby there is an ordinance or a regulation or a
provision which says that whites have to live in a
certain area and blacks in another?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we don’t propose to
introduce any further ordinance. I would again state
for the record it has been testified to during the
preliminary hearing that the ordinance which the Court
states was struck down in 1940 remained on the books
until 1961. I would also point out to the Court that
the Supreme Court itself has said on numerous occasions,
particularly in the demonstration cases, that where
such an ordinance exists, even though it is unconsti—
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tutional and might have been declared so by the state,
the effect of that ordinance must be considered by the
court, and in the demonstration cases the court said
merely because of the ordinance the state could not
enforce a directive from an owner of a private establish
ment; the court considered that state action. And we
submitted to the Court several such cases.
Now, here we have an ordinance, although declared
unconstitutional by the state court, and I point out
that what the state court said was that the city didn't
have authority to enact the ordinance - it did not say
it was unconstitutional to segregate the races. What
the state court did say in 1940, that the City of
Winston didn't have authority to enact such an ordinance
but that ordinance remained on the books here until
1961, when I understand there was a general revision
that deleted that particular order.
THE COURT: You mean that those cases say, Mr.
Chambers, that here an ordinance has been declared
invalid and void, that simply because there were books
that still kept that ordinance in there, that that had
some effect on something that happened after?
MR. CHAMBERS: One of the cases that we cited to
the Court didn't even have an ordinance; it was Just
a statement by the police official. The Court, we
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submit, cannot close its eyes to what we all know.
And the fact that that ordinance was on the book, we
contend, has had an effect on the racial housing
pattern here in the City of Winston-Salem. We sub
mitted an exhibit which shows that some parties tried
to develop some housing in that area and the suit was
brought which resulted in the decision by the court,
State Supreme Court, and we also introduced an exhibit
where the City Council itself bought some land to keep
some blacks from developing a housing project.
Now, this of course took place before I960, but
the results are the effects of this act where this
ordinance - or these ordinances, I should say - has
been that they have created the situation that we have
here now, and that's all we're trying to show the
Court, we submit.
THE COURTx If you were city attorney and that
happened back there and you wanted to get rid of this
sore thumb, what would you do? Write the publishing
company, you know, and have new books published to get
rid of this, or Just how could you advise them that
they could rid themselves of this thing?
NR. CHAMBERS: The same way, we think, that the
Supreme Court has indicated the School Board has to get
rid of the segregated schools, by affirmative conduct.
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The Court will notice in cases where we have had
company-dominated unions, the courts spell out, "You
have got to disestablish that and make sure it's dis
established; you've got to take affirmative steps so
that everybody in the company will know that the com
pany no longer runs that union." You Just can't leave
a statute on the book here and say that Just because
it's unconstitutional, nobody is going to pay any
attention to it. We all know that that isn't true.
That hasn't been the way that we have reacted. We
had a pupil assignment act here that has helped per
petuate a segregated system. The Court struck it down,
and noticeably in that decision, was one question
about one provision of the act, of permitting the
school closing where parents or a certain percentage -
ten percent - decided to petition to close the
schools in cases of integration. There has never been
such a thing there, a practice in North Carolina.
That statute was on the book and then the court said
that it created the problem, that the mere existence
of the statute created the problem, and this is what
we're talking about here.
THE COURT; Well, I never cease to be amazed ~ but
to refresh my mind that was your contention back there,
but it has been three decades now since the highest
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court of this state said that you couldn't do that,
and it seems like to me sometime someway short of a
whole lot of whatever it takes, that our people could
come to recognize that there is no such law.
MR. Y/OKBLE: Your Honor, I think you will find
that even from the evidence that's in the record in
this case, and if not I'm sure we can find it else
where, that this 1930 statute was completely superseded
I don't mean statute; I mean ordinance — was completely
superseded by another ordinance certainly as far back
as 1948, so that it couldn't have been even on the
books, as he puts it, after that date.
THE COURT: The evidence was during the preliminary
period that our people were living, you know, in areas
even, as I recall, that the ordinance prohibited.
They were living in other areas. It's inconceivable to
me that, you know, that many people could have been
misled by that, especially in the last many years.
MR. WOMBLE: Not only was this just a decision
knocking down this ordinance, this was an action to
enjoin the city from enforcing the ordinance, and the
Supreme Court in this action was specifically granting
the relief prayed for, so that it was not just a holding
in a vacuum that might apply to some other city. This
was an injunction against the City of Winston-Salem to
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enforce this ordinance.
THE COURT: Do you agree with Mr. Chambers that
in effect here, since the ordinance was there, that
something like forced mixing of the races has got to
be done—
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir, I don't think so. Plus the
fact—
MR. CHAMBERS: I don't quite say that either. I
would point out that fir. Womble has Just told the
Court that the city was enforcing the ordinance.
MR. WOMBLE: I have not said that. I did not say
that; I didn't intend to say it.
MR. CHAMBERS: You Just said that the action we
have here was brought to enjoin the city—
MR. WOMBLE: I didn't say the city was enforcing
it. The Judgment that you put into evidence shows
that the city wasn't enforcing it until Just before
this action was brought, and that was Just one specific
instance in which they brought this action.
MR. CHAMBERS: And we have introduced another
exhibit that shows that the city not only enforced it
but went further with tax money to buy the land to
keep blacks from getting in the area.
MR. WOMBLE: I submit that that'3 an erroneous
statement, Your Honor. The thing he's talking about
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are the minutes of 1921, nine years before this
ordinance was ever passed.
THE COURT: Well, the reason I wanted to aBk you
about this - this was a facet of it that was of concern
to me back during the other hearing, and I just wanted
to hear what you had to say about it.
Mr. Ingle, you come down for a minute. We're
going to take a recess for a little bit, and then when
we come back, you'll have to return to the stand.
THE WITNESS: All right, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Let’s take a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Ingle, come back to the stand,
please, sir.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, during the time
that you worked in Winston-Salem in real estate, did you
become acquainted or familiar with the practice of real
estate agents in whether they would show houses in particu
lar neighborhoods to particular races?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the Court the practice? Would a
real estate agent show a black person a home in a white
neighborhood?
A No, sir.
Q Would a real estate agent show a white person a
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home in a black neighborhood?
A No, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the code of ethics of the
Real Estate Board?
A The National Association of Real Estate Boards?
Q Yes.
A It’s been some time since I read it, but I'm
familiar with it, yes, sir.
Q Are you familiar with it as it existed prior to the
1968 Housing Act?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the Court what the code of ethics
provided with respect to an agent showing a home to a person
of a particular race against the wishes of the agent's
client?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: It's not the best evidence?
MR. WOMBLE: In addition to these other things,
yes, sir.
THE COURT: That's in written form, isn't it,
Mr. Chambers, and you are asking him to tell us what
it is? Isn't that Just a little bit too far even for
this proceeding where I am exceedingly liberal about
the acceptance of that?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we can cite the code in
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a brief submitted to the Court. Well, I mentioned that
I had some examples of multiple listing which we
wanted to identify. I did not confer further with
counsel about whether they had any objections, but I
would like to identify these exhibits now.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. WOMBLE: We have no objections as to authenti
city, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOODY: The same with us, but we think they
are irrelevant.
THE COURT: Let the record show— what are you
designating that as, Mr. Idol?
CLERK IDOL: Your Honor, that will be Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 69.
THE COURT: Counsel for all defendants object to
the receipt into evidence of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 69
on the ground of relevancy. The objection is overruled.
CLERK IDOL: Your Honor, they consist of eleven
pages.
(The documents above referred to were
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 69
for identification and received in
evidence.)
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, I show you Plain
tiffs' Exhibit 69 and ask you if you will tell us what that
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is?
A Each individual paper here is commonly referred to
as a multiple listing sheet. This information on a house
that is for sale that has been placed in the multiple list
ing service.
Q Would you tell the Court the dates on that
exhibit?
A The first one here is 1966.
Q Let's go through all eleven of them.
A Okay. 1964, 1965, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1963, 1963,
1962, 1962, 1964.
Q Now, do those exhibits show what race those homes
are available for?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what race do those exhibits show?
A All of them are marked "for colored", or similar
wording.
Q I show you the one dated 1964 which shows that it
was sold on April the 24th, 1964. What does it show there
with reference to race?
A This one indicates in these words, it says,
"Colored already living in this block".
Q What did that mean in the trade?
A It meant that you could show houses in this block
to prospective colored purchasers but not to prospective
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white purchasers.
MR. WOMBLE: Object and move to strike.
THE COURT: Overruled; motion denied.
G (By Mr. Chambers) During your work as a real
estate agent, did you come across any racially restricted
covenants?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did the covenants indicate particular homes for
whites or particular homes restricted to blacks?
MR. MOODY: We object to that.
TIIE COURT: Overruled.
A Yes, the covenants indicated which racial group
could hold title to the property.
Q Now, in the trade would a real estate agent sell
a home that was restricted to whites to a black person?
A With a restricted covenant?
G Yes.
A Weil—
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
A May I answer?
THE COURT: The question is would a real estate
agent sell one contrary to the restriction. Now, do
you know what every realtor might do at this time, or
are you able to speak— how many realtors do you have
here?
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MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I’m not asking him
about all of the realtors; I was just talking about the
trade.
THE COURT: State your question again and let me
see. Maybe I misunderstood it.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Was it a practice of the
profession to sell a home that had a racial restrictive
covenant to a person of the opposite race?
THE COURT: Let the record show that the defendant*
object, and the objection is overruled. Go ahead.
A If the home was in a traditionally white area,
it wouldn’t be shown to a black family under any circum
stances, whether there was a restrictive covenant or not.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Now, these provisions in your multiple
listing that are advertised for colored only, this
advertising came about by reason of you realtors, did
it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is there any law to your knowledge
that required you all to advertise it in that fashion?
THE WITNESS: I personally wasn’t aware of any
laws at all. I wasn't aware of the zoning laws that
you people have been talking about.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Womble. I
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would assume that you are first for cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) So you don't know of any legal
sanction for the notations on these multiple listing sheets
shown in Plaintiffs' Exhibit 69, do you?
A I have become aware—
Q I'm talking about legal sanctions, basis in law.
A At the time I was practicing real estate, I didn't
think about that sort of thing. I'm aware of the fact that
there were laws enforcing segregation of the races now.
Q You don't know of any laws that related to the
wording on multiple listing sheets, do you, even now?
A I'm really not trying to evade an answer to your
question, but I feel—
THE COURT: I don't want what you feel; I want
to know if you know of any law that was the basis?
THE WITNESS: Okay. I can answer that question.
I know that there were laws that influenced the customs
that resulted in the racial identification on this
paper.
Q (By Mr. Womble) That's your own conclusion,
isn't it?
A I know for a fact that these ordinances and various
laws existed.
Q You don't know of any law that was the basis for
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putting that on the multiple listing, do you?
A I know of no law that required anyone to place
any sort of racial statement on the multiple listing sheet.
Q And you know of no law that required anybody to
abide by any such statement on a listing, do you?
A That's correct, if we exclude the law of economics,
Q Mr. Ingle, you live in Raleigh now, and I believe
you said that you were employed by the National Commission—
A Committee.
Q Committee against Discrimination in Housing. You
say that's a private organization?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who sponsors it?
A Mr. Womble, NCDH - for short - is sponsored by
fifty-one national cooperating organizations, to use our
term. Some examples would be the American Baptist Conven
tion, the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, the
League of Women Voters of the United States, and I could go
on. We also have a significant financial backing from
various private foundations.
Q Do you get any public funds?
A For special projects, yes, sir. For instance we
now have a contract with HUD to do a study in the San
Francisco Bay area.
Q Do you have any federal funds in connection with
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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your operations in Raleigh?
A No, sir.
Q And you have been with them for seven months?
A That's correct.
Q What are you doing? What is your particular
title or job with the corporation?
A My title is Director of the Raleigh-Durham-
Chapel Hill Demonstration Project.
Q What is the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill Demonstra
tion Project?
A We are assisting programatically private fair
housing groups in that area, groups that are similar to
Winston-Salem Citizens for Fair Housing here.
Q You are familiar with the fact that there is a
Citizens for Fair Housing here in Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the organizations that you support down there
are similar to that?
A Yes, sir.
Q The same purpose and objective?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you said that you started in real estate
work here in 1961?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were you working for?
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A The W. Bryan White Realty Company, Inc.
Q How long did you work for him?
A For two years.
0 And what did you do after you left W. Bryan White
Realty Company?
A I became associated with a firm called Ingle-
Hudson Company, Inc.
0 What did that company do?
A Our primary interest was the management of multi-
family residential property, and we did some brokerage, and
we also did a little building.
Q This was from when to when?
A Well, the partnership, I suppose, existed until
1966 when I left.
Q From 1963 to 1966?
A Yes, sir.
C And this was your primary business during that
period of time?
A That’s correct. During the latter period of that
time, I was active in a restaurant enterprise that I became
involved in.
Q That was the Red Lion?
A Yes, sir. Originally it was the Beefeater.
Q That was in the basement of the Pepper Building?
A Yes, sir.
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0 During what period of time were you actively
involved in that?
A I believe we opened that in December of *64, and
I was active in it until sometime in '65. I suspect the
summer of ’6b. I sold my interest in it at that time.
Q Did it take most of your time during the time
that you were involved in it?
A I spent quite a bit of time down there. It would
be hard to say that it took most of my time, but perhaps it
took half of it.
Q In your management of multi-family residential
properties, was that mostly rental?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what areas of town was that located?
A We had one property that belonged to my family in
Old Salem. We had a number of properties in East Winston,
and from time to time we had various properties in various
parts of the town.
0 Did you discriminate racially in your rental of
houses?
A I never had occasion to.
Q What do you mean by that?
A No black person ever’ applied to rent an apartment
of ours in a predominantly white area, or vice versa.
C So that your experience was t^at everyone who was
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interested in renting property that you owned or controlled
that was in a white or predominantly white area was a white
person, and every person who indicated to you any interest
in buying or renting property that you all controlled in a
black or predominantly black area was a black person?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, that would have been generally true of the
experience of other realtors who you knew in town, wouldn’t
it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you say you were a member of the Winston-Salem
Board of Realtors?
A That’s correct. I was a full member of the
Winston-Salem Board of Realtors.
Q Do you know of any Negro who applied for member
ship in the Winston-Salem Board of Realtors while you were
a member?
A No, sir.
0. Multiple listing is really Just a division of the
operation of the Winston-Salem Board of Realtors, isn’t it?
A In most cases—
Q I mean in Winston-Salem.
A The reason I was going to say in most cases was
because I don't remember about Winston-Salem. In most cases,
it's a subsidiary corporate—
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Q
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Exhibit
hadn't,
A
I would think so, yes.
For the members of the Board?
Correct.
I realize that you have not seen Plaintiffs'
5 before you came into court today - I guess you
had you?
That's correct.
It's an operation of the Board of Realtors?
Q But from the examination you made of it while on
the witness stand, you said that it appeared to you that the
areas that were shown on this map as being zoned A-l, B-l
or C-l, continued in white residence during your time, and
the A-2, B-2, C-2 areas continued in black residence. I
believe that was your testimony?
A Okay. If it was, I was somewhat nearer inasmuch
as_ i*m sure, you know, between 1961 and 1930 there were
significant changes, but I just see a general pattern here,
is what I meant to say. For instance, I see black areas
in the east and I see white areas in the west. So I assume
that the pattern that I knew evolved from the pattern that
is shown here.
q As far as this map is concerned, of course, it
really shows only a small part of what is now Winston-Salem,
doesn't it
A Yes, sir.
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Q Winston-Salem has expanded tremendously beyond—
THE COURT: Does the map have a date on it?
THE WITNESS: 1930, sir, November 21, 1930,
THE COURT: All right.
A There’s Knollwood; that sounds familiar. I guess
that’s where Knollwood Manor is now.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Winston-Salem now goes way beyond
Knollwood on the west, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir. Yes, sir, this is Ardmore; this is old
Ardmore.
Q Ardmore is almost in the middle of town now,
isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Instead of being on the western edge of town.
A Yes, it's no longer the edge.
Q Another street that's shown along the western
edge of town on this map is Roslyn Road, along the northwest
corner. Do you know whether or not that is approximately
where the boundary of the city is now?
A I know that it's not.
Q It goes way beyond that both north and west,
doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the same would be true of these other bound
aries here?
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A That’s correct.
Q Now, directing your attention to the eastern part
of the map, I show you an area that appears to have the
City Hospital in the center of it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that, according to this map, is zoned A-l
residence, which would be according to the zoning ordinance
of that date for white residents?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is that now, according to your own informa
tion, as far as the racial composition of that neighborhood
is concerned?
A In 1966 I would guess it was all black.
Q And it has been all black all your life as far
as you can remember, hasn’t it, or most of it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Certainly as far back as you can remember, it's
been all black?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, let's look at the area up at the north part
of this map. You see there Patterson Avenue and Okalina
Avenue? Do you recognize that as being the Bon Air section
of town?
A Yes, sir.
Q Sometimes called North Winston?
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A Yets, sir.
According to this map, that was zoned residenceQ
A-l, or the most restricted white residential area on the
map, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir.
0 What is the racial composition of that area now?
A It's all black.
Q Do you know when blacks began to move into that
area?
A If I remember correctly, it was 1962.
G So that was during the time that you were actively
involved in the real estate business?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, as a matter of fact, the homes shown on
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 69 are for the most part in that area,
aren't they?
A I believe most of them are, although I didn't go
through them.
Q Glenn Avenue?
A Right.
Q That would be in that area, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you sell that home?
A No, sir.
Q And that is a house that sold for $10,000.00?
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A Yes, sir.
Q The next one appears to be 1964, a listing between
24th and 25th Streets on Greenway Avenue. Now, is Greenway
Avenue in that same—
A I believe it is.
Q In the same Bon Air section?
A I believe it is; yes, sir, it is.
Q And that house sold for £13»000.00?
A According to that notation, yes, sir.
Q Did you sell that house?
A No, sir.
Q So you don't really know whether it sold to a
black person or white person, do you?
A From my personal knowledge, I don’t.
Q From your personal knowledge, you don’t know, do
you?
A That’s correct.
Q From your personal knowledge, do you know to whom
the first house we were talking about was sold on Glenn
Avenue?
A No, sir.
Q Whether it was white or black?
A No, sir.
Q Now, the third house is on Oriole Street; it’s a
1965 listing. Do you know where that’s located?
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A Except for the fact that it is south of town, I
don’t know.
Q So that would be down in the southern section of
town somewhere?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that one sold for $11,500.00?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you don’t know whether that sold to a white
or colored person, do you?
A Not to my personal knowledge, no.
Q Now, the next one is on Northwest 25th Street,
between Kilgare and Pittsburg. Do you know where that is?
A I guess it is in this same North Winston section.
Q 25th Street is up in that same North Winston
area, isn't it"
A Yes, sir. Yeah, there’s 25th. It's North
Winston, yes, sir.
Q This was a 1962 listing?
A Yes, sir.
Q It looks like that one sold for $10,(XX).00, is
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you sell that one?
A No, sir.
Q You don’t know whether it sold to a white or
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colored person, do you?
A No, air.
Q The next one is a 1963 listing on East 28th Street,
up near Stokes Street. Do you know where that is?
A In the Bon Air section.
Q And it was listed at $10,250.00?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't know whether that sold to a white or
colored person?
A No, sir.
THE COURT: Is the Bon Air section around North
Elementary, Hanes?
MR. WOMBLEx It is north of North Elementary, and
it's west and south — well, Hanes is pretty much in it,
and then it's west and south of Hanes.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Vomble) The next one is a 1964 listing,
220 West 24th Street, between Patterson and Okalina, and
that would be up in this same area, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q That sold for $11,500.00?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you sell that one?
A No, sir.
Q You don't know whether it was sold to a white or
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colored person?
A Not to ray personal knowledge.
Q The next one was a 1963 listing on 25th Street,
between Druid Hill and Kilgare. Is that generally in the
same area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was listed $11,300.00?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't know whether that sold to a white or
colored person, do you?
A No, sir.
Q And the next one is on the New Walkertown Road,
or Highway 311. That would be northeast of Winston-Salem,
wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it was sold in 1964 for $12,300.00?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't know whether that was sold to a white
or colored person, do you?
A No, sir.
Q The next one again is on Northwest 25th Street,
which I believe you have already identified as being in the
same area?
A Right.
Q That was a 1962 listing, and it looks like that
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■146
sold for around $11,500.00, or somewhere in that neighborhood?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you sell that house?
A No, sir.
Q You don't know whether it was sold to a white or
colored person?
A No, sir.
Q The next one is a 1962 listing on Moravia Street.
Now, that was between Burgandy and Thomasville Road?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is that located?
A That's near the Lexington Road Western Electric
plant.
Q That would be in the southern part of the city,
wouldn’t it?
A Yes, sir. It was a black area.
Q Well, there are a good many white people that
live down there, too, aren't there?
A In that immediate area, only black people live,
Q That's not far from Easton, is it?
A No, sir. No, it's not far from Easton.
Q And both black and white people live in the Easton
area, don't they?
A Now?
Q Now.
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A I don’t know now
Q And have for a good many years?
A I wasn’t aware of that.
Q And then the next one is a 1965 listing also on
Moravia Street and near the Waughtown-Clemmons Road?
A Yes, sir.
Q That’s in the southern part of town, down near
Western Electric?
A Yes.
Q And that house was listed for $8,750.00. Did you
sell that house?
A No, sir.
Q You don't know whether it sold to a white or
colored person?
A No, sir.
Q Now, you know no reason in law why any of those
houses couldn’t have been sold to either a white or colored
person?
A No, sir.
Q Nov/, let's look at the area on Plaintiffs’ Exhibit
5 that is cn the east side of Liberty Street, from 26th
Street southwardly for about a half a dozen blocks.
A Yes, sir.
Q And extending at that time from Liberty Street
over to the eastern boundary of the city limits?
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A Yes, sir.
Q Now, that area was zoned A-l residence district,
which would be for white residents, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know the racial composition of that area
now?
A I suspect it's black.
Q And was for the most part prior to I960, wasn't it'
A Yes, sir.
Q So without going through all the rest of the map,
there have been a good many areas that apparently were
zoned for white residential purposes in 1930 which are now
occupied by black owners, black residents, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And during the early 1960's, to your own knowledge
there were a good many houses in the North Winston area on
both sides of Patterson Avenue and on Patterson Avenue, in
the so-called Bon Air section, where colored people were
buying houses in an area where white people lived and owned
homes?
A They were buying houses in an area from which the
white people were moving out.
Q All the white people didn't move out in one day,
did they?
A No, sir.
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Q So they were buying in an area where white people
were living, weren’t they?
A For a period of time there was a racial mix there.
Q Are you familiar with the Morningside Manor area
of Winston-Salem?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, that is in the southeastern part of the city,
isn’t it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it is a fairly new residential development?
A Yes, sir.
Q By fairly new, it’s probably all been developed
within the last ten or fifteen years, hasn’t it?
A I think so.
Q And there are both blacks and whites who own homes
in that area, are there not?
A At the time I left Winston-Salem, to my knowledge
everyone in that area was white.
Q To your knowledge, are there now some black people
that live there?
A I have been told that there are, sir.
Q In the western parts of the city, are you familiar
with any sales to black persons in the Ashley Forest or
Hope Valley or other areas in the western or northwestern
part of the city?
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A I have been told that there are some token examples
of blacks living in white areas.
Q Now, when you say "token", you mean that a black
person bought a house, don’t you, in a white area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he put his money out for it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And if he’s there, it would be a pretty good
substantial aaount of money, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he wouldn't consider that token, would he?
A That wasn't the kind of tokenism I was referring
to.
Q Nobody gave him the house, did they, that you know
of?
A Not that I know of.
Q I noticed on one of these multiple listing sheets,
the second one in the group, it Just says "colored already
living in this block"?
A Yes, sir.
Q That really means what it says, doesn't it?
A No, sir.
Q You don't think that colored were already living
in the block?
A I think that was true, but that was a code phrase
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that meant something entirely different.
Q Did you have a copy of the code?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever seen the code?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever own any houses, or any company that
you were connected with ever own any houses in the North
Winston Bon Air section?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever buy any houses or sell any houses as
real estate agent in that area?
A I think I recall selling one in the area. I
really didn’t work in that area very much.
Q Do you remember who you sold it to?
A I couldn’t call the name, no, sir.
Q I take it whoever bought it was someone who wanted
to buy it, wasn’t it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And if you were acting as agent for someone who
wanted to sell it, you were interested in finding a buyer
who would give the best price for it, weren’t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember whether you sold to a black person
or white person?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Which was it?
A White.
Q Do you remember when it was?
A I think it was in 1962.
Q So that was a person who simply wanted to sell
and another person simply wanted to buy?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were simply trying to get the best price
you could for the person who wanted to sell without regard
to race, weren't you?
A I didn't have an occasion to regard race in 1962.
Q Do you remember where that house was?
A I don’t think I can call the street name. I might
could if I looked on a map.
0 This was at a time when some of these houses in
this area had already been sold to colored people, wasn't
it?
A It was at a time when this was Just beginning,
yes, sir. This was sort of on the western edge of this area
we are discussing, and it really hadn't reached that edge
yet. It sort of proceeded from east to west.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE, COURT: Mr. Ingle, in your work you find that
there is still not much mixing of the races in housing,
isn't that true?
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TIE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You say that you are engaged in trying
to prevent discrimination. Now, do you find many
situations where we will say that whites refuse to
sell to blacks and therefore, you know, the mixing of
the races through housing is deterred, or is it that
the black does not wish to buy out of the areas where
the blacks live, or perhaps for economic reasons is
unable to afford the homes in the white section? What
has been your experience about that? We had somebody
here with the Redevelopment Commission, and I believe
he said that about fifteen hundred families, all black,
that virtually all of the blacks wanted to be re
settled back where they - in the general area where
they were uprooted from. They didn't want to move over
to a white section. What is your eTqperience about that?
THE WITNESS: I think this would be especially
true of the lower socio-economic blacks. To specifi
cally answer your question, I think that economics and
preference are definitely factors. However, I find an
awful lot of discrimination in the sale and rental of
housing through today. I didn't have occasion to
uncover any this morning, but I did yesterday.
THE COURT: Well, how do you find that a white
person has a house for sale and he is Just not going
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to sell to a black man? Is that it?
TIE WITNESS: That happens, yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Any questions?
MR. WOMBLE: Could I just ask one?
THE COURT: Yes.
q (By Mr. Womble) You are familiar with the Jones
vs. Mayer case, aren' t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Has your organization taken anybody to court for
refusing to sell to a person on account of race?
A We took Mayer to court, a friend of the court.
Q Since then have you?
A Yes, sir.
Q In Winston-Salem?
A No, sir.
Q In Raleigh?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are finding that the attitude is somewhat
different since that case and since those actions were
brought, aren®t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that even before that though, as I believe you
just testified to the Court, the great mass of real estate
business was really determined by economic factors and a
person's preference as to neighbors, as to church, and that
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sort of thing?
A Did you say that I said that, sir?
Q You said that in your own experience you found
that you rented and sold to people where they wanted houses,
didn't you?
A Back in 1962, I did, yes, sir.
Q That's your only experience in Winston?
A Yes, sir.
HR. WOMBLE: That’s all.
THE COURT: Hr. Price, do you have any questions?
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Price) Mr. Ingle, did you understand
that the Winston-Salem Board of Realtors is a voluntary
0 rgani z ati on?
A I can't recall the membership requirements, but
1 assume that it is a corporate entity with membership.
Q What I'm asking is is it your understanding - as
to voluntariness - that you weren't required to?
A I wasn't required to Join; quite the opposite.
Q Were you aware at the time of any law that would
require you or anyone else to be a member of the Board of
Realtors?
A Definitely not.
Q Mr. Ingle, you stated that in your experience
there was a practice of no showing of white homes to blacks
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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and no showing of black homes to whites?
A That's correct.
Q Can you state from your own personal knowledge
that this absolutely did not happen?
A No, I couldn't say it absolutely never happened,
no.
MR. PRICE: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mitchell?
Q (By Mr. Mitchell) Mr. Ingle, you testified that
while you worked in real estate that black people bought
houses in neighborhoods where whites were living. Is that
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know of your own personal knowledge of
any state officials ever having ciscouraged this practice,
having discouraged realtors from selling houses?
A Inasmuch as I believe that the institution of
white racism invaded state offices also, I would say yes.
Q My question is do you know of any state officials
having ever spoken to any realtor, either yourself or other
realtors - of your own personal knowledge - and discouraged
your selling these homes to Negroes?
A No, sir.
Q No member of the State Board of Education ever
did this, is that correct?
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A No, sir.
Q To your personal knowledge?
A That’s right.
Q The Superintendent of Public Instruction for the
State of North Carolina, not to your personal knowledge?
A No, sir.
MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Your Honor. We have
nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further, Mr.
Chambers?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
0 (By Mr. Chambers) Does the State of North
Carolina require that one be licensed in order to sell real
estate?
A That’s correct.
Q I believe that one has to get a license in order
to be a real estate agent, and one has to get a license to
be a real estate broker?
A That's correct.
Q I believe that one has to pay a fee, like a lawyer,
in order to practice?
A That's correct.
Q I believe the Board of Realtors in Winston-Salem
is about like the Forsyth County Bar Association?
MR. MOODY: Objection.
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MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Are you objecting to the comparison?
MR. WOMBLE: I don't know -what he means by that.
THE COURT: All right. Sustained. You might be
more particular, I think, in that they have to have
some license. Sustain it. You may ask the question
over.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I would Just point out
that we engaged a moment ago in some philosophy by
questions of the Court and I think by Mr. Womble, and
I Just wanted to pursue.
THE COURT: Your question was, as I understood
it, is the Board of Realtors somewhat like the Forsyth
County Bar Association, and I think that is very broad.
One’s a legal group and the other is a board of realtors
I think you mean in that they each have to be licensed,
and I sustained it, so you could make it more specific.
I think what you're pursuing is all right. In that
condition, I sustain it.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'll go to another point.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, a question was asked
you about whether your organization brought any proceeding
in Winston-Salem challenging discrimination of housing. Are
you familiar with the lawsuit that has been brought by the
United States Government against the real estate agents here,
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about block-busting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you define what ”block—busting” is?
A Yes, sir. It’s the practice of a person spreading
rumors and preying on the fears of whites concerning prin
cipally property values and attempting thereby to acquire
listings at a reduced - really below market value, and
then reselling the property at a reasonable value to a
minority group family.
Q Mr. Womble went through the northeastern area of
the change of white to black?
A Right.
Q Is the change there from white to black, particu
larly with the exhibits that you have there, an example of
the effects of block-busting?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
4
A
Q
here in
A
Q
setting
A
Q
Yes.
Are you familiar with the lawsuit that was brought
Forsyth County dealing with Tanglewood Park?
Yes, sir.
Are you aware that the provision of that trust
up the park there excluded blacks from the park?
Yes, sir.
You are aware, are you not, Mr. Ingle, that there
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has been a distinction made in the races in Forsyth County?
MR. WOMBLE; Object.
THE CCJRT: Overruled, Mr. Chambers, but that’s
awful broad. I’m going to overrule it; go ahead.
A Yes.
Q And that's true in public accommodations and
housing and generally across the board?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: We move to strike.
THE COURT: Overruled; denied.
G In your opinion, would this practice also effect
the applicant for a home in going to you as a real estate
agent and asking for a home?
A Certainly.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we didn't have a chance
to object, but it certainly seemed to us that that's
an objectionable question.
TIE COURT: I let you go this far, but I think
we’re pretty far afield on that, Mr. Chambers. I will
have to sustain the objection.
MR. CHAMBERS: I won’t go any further. But just
for the record, I would like - since the Court inquired
of Mr. Ingle about the desires of blacks to stay among
themselves and also Mr. Womble made such an inquiry -
I would only like to call to the Court's attention the
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decision of the Supreme Court in Green vs. New Kent
County, where the court there was weighing the various
factors that deterred the exercise of freedom of
choice.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I have Just one or two
questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) With respect to Tanglewood Park,
you know that that has also been reopened, don’t you, as
a fully-integrated park?
A I read a brief article in the paper, yes, sir.
Q I believe you said that block-busting is the
inculcating of fear in property owners by realtors who buy
cheap and then sell at a fair price and make a profit for
themselves?
A That’s one aspect, yes, sir.
Q Wasn't that the way you defined ’’block-busting”?
A Yes, sir, I think that would be the principal
description of it.
Q And you in response to what Mr. Chambers asked
you said that the listings in Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 69 would
be examples of block-busting?
A I couldn't say that these specific listings were,
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but I think the whole North Winston situation was an
example. I think there was some block-busting activities
involved in that example.
Q You don’t know of a single one, do you? You
don’t know of one case where a realtor bought a house cheap,
put it in his own inventory, and then sold it after having
deliberately acquired it by inculcating fear in the mind
and heart of the owner?
A In the sense that I couldn’t cite you a name or
date, and I wasn't following these guys around, in that
sense no, I don't know of a case.
Q So far as you know, in every one of these instances
the realtor was simply acting as an agent for an owner,
trying to find a purchaser for the owner, wasn't he?
A I can't say anything about these cases; I wasn't
involved in them. I can't say.
Q You don't know that that was the case, do you?
A That's right.
Q So that as far as you know, in every one of these
instances, the ownership of the property may have gone
direct from the owner resident to the purchaser resident,
without title ever having gone into a realtor?
A Well, to follow the definition of block-busting—
Q Just give me an answer to that first.
HR. CHAMBERS: He should be able to—
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MR. WOMBLE: Just answer the question and then he
can explain.
THE COURT: You may answer and then you may
explain as you wish.
A Would you ask the question again, please?
Q (By Mr. Womble) So far as you know, in each
instance referred to in Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 69, the owner
ship would have gone from the resident owner of that
property to the new resident owner of that property, without
title becoming vested in a realtor in the interim?
A That is correct, but title becoming vested in a
realtor in the interim isn’t part of the definition of
"block-busting".
Q I was Just going by your definition as you gave it
a few moments ago.
A If I said that, the only— that it was only
block-busting when some third party actually acquired title
to the property, then I made a mistake. As a matter of
fact, more than not, the realtors don’t acquire the property,
don’t acquire title.
q Does that mean that then, where it is sold direct,
that the seller gets a good price or a poor price for his
property?
A Well, there are different instances of block
busting and different results. Certainly when it’s sold
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direct, the seller is more likely to come out all right,
and the realty doesn't have the same motive. He's just
making a commission in this case, whereas if he takes title
to the property, he not only makes a commission but he
hopefully makes a profit, too.
Q So the higher the property sells for, where the
realtor is representing the owner, the better the realtor
does?
A Yes, sir.
Q In that instance, the realtor is not at all
interested in buying that property cheap, is he, or dis
posing of it cheap?
A He's not taking title of it. All he wants is a
commission.
MR. WOKBLEt That's all.
THE COURT: You were engaged in this Bon Air area
selling when you were here, when this was going on?
THE WITNESS: Actually not, Your Honor. The one
instance that I referred to, there really wasn't any
question, any racial question involved in this immediate
neighborhood, in the particular house, and I really
only remember' dealing with that one house. I just
didn't deal with houses in that area.
THE COURT: Did you sense that anything in the
nature of what you defined, block-busting, was going
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on at the time when you were selling real estate?
THE WITNESS: I knew that it was in the Bon Air
area. I knew that white people were inordinately
scared.
MR. WOMBLE: I object and move to strike unless
he knows of some instance.
THE COURT: He's been saying he knows. I would
have to weigh that, you know. Are you saying you know
that they were?
THE WITNESS: Well, again I would have to say that
I wasn't following anybody around and listening over
his shoulder, would he spread a rumor or something
like that.
THE COURT: All right. Any more questions here,
Mr. Price, Mr. Mitchell?
MR. PRICE: No.
MR. MITCHELL: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: I just have to ask one question.
G (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ingle, we do know that that
area changed from all white to all black?
A That's correct.
Q And do you know how long it took to change?
A From the time that the first little nibbles began
until the time that it ended, in all honesty I can't answer
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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that question, but it happened pretty quick when it started
going fast.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Don’t you know that there are a
few white people who still live out there, still own their
homes out there?
A I would have been willing to assume that that
might be the case, but I don't know.
Q So far as you know, it is not all black now?
A I would suspect that it is 99 percent black.
MR. MITCHELL: Object.
THE COURT: Your suspicion about it wouldn’t be
exactly competent. Anything further, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLEx Ho.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'd like to request,
unless there's an objection from counsel, that Mr.
Ingle be excused and not have to come back tomorrow.
THE COURT: All right. Any need for him by any
body?
MR. MITCHELL: No, sir.
MR. PRICE: No, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all right.
(Witness excused.)
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MR. CHAMBERS: If the Court would permit me, I'd
like to identify Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 70, the deposition
of Mr. John L. Lewis, Jr., which I mentioned this morning.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 70
for identification.)
THE COURT: All right. You all stated some
objection?
MR. WOMBLE: We haven't had a chance to review
that, as to the particular parts of it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Can you review it by 9:30 tomorrow
morning?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Try to do that then, and remind me
again tomorrow. Do you all have a copy?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir, we have a copy.
THE COURT: I don't want to ignore you other
defendants.
MR. MOODY: No, sir.
MR. PRICE: If the Court please, I was present
and I have not reviewed, but I would say at this time that
I would object for the same reason as to Mr. Ingle's testi
mony.
THE COURT: All right. Whenever it is offered
again formally for introduction into evidence, if you all
will make your motions, I'll rule on them at that time, or
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your objections. Anything else that we should take care
of before we recess until the morning?
MR. MITCHELL: Your Honor, if we may, perhaps
save the witness some inconvenience, we’d like to recall Mr.
Ward for just a moment, if we may.
THE COURT: He meets here every time we do.
MR. MITCHELL: Well, yes, sir, and I understood
Mr. Chambers would have him back tomorrow, but just in case
he did not, but you’ll be back tomorrow, Mr. Ward? You
plan to be back tomorrow, do you not, sir?
MR. WARD: Yes, sir.
MR. WQMBLE: Yes, sir. He’s planning to be back
tomorrow.
THE COURT: He's in court more than most lawyers
these days. All right. Is that ail right, Mr. Mitchell?
MR. MITCHELL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have something?
MR. WOMBLE: This is just that order that I
mentioned earlier in the day, about interrogatory 6> that we
would like to submit to the Court.
THE COURT: All right. And would you give Mr.
Moody that and get your court copy back? I have a copy now.
MR. CHAMBERS: Y/e’d like to see a copy of that
proposed order.
THE COURT: On number 6?
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MR. CHAMBERS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. He has copies there. I
will pull the original.
All right. Let's take a recess until the morning
at 9:30.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on April 17, 1970.)
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P R O C E E D I N G S
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, may I approach the
bench with opposing counsel?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Discussion at the bench.)
THE COURT: I believe we had concluded with Mr.
Ingle as the last witness yesterday, and Mr. Chambers, you
may proceed with your evidence.
MR. CHAMBERS: We had identified as Plaintiffs'
Exhibit No. 70 the deposition of Mr. John L. Lewis, Jr.,
and we would like to tender that deposition in evidence.
MR. MOODY: We'd like to object to it as far as
the State defendant is concerned.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
CLERK IDOL: Your Honor, I don't believe it was
actually marked yesterday as an exhibit; however, 70 would
be the number.
THE COURT: Number 70?
CLERK IDOL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What says the other defendants?
MR. WOMBLE: We object to the relevancy, Your
Honor.
MR. LIGON: We object also, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received into
the evidence is Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 70, being the
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deposition of Mr. John L. Lewis, and that the defendants
and each of them object to it on the grounds of relevancy.
All right.
(The document above referred to,
heretofore marked Plaintiffs' Exhi
bit No. 70 for identification, was
received in evidence.)
MR. CHAMBERS: We would like to recall Mr. Ward.
WHEREUPON,
MARVIN M. WARD
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, you have with you
this morning maps that were prepared by Dr. McGuffey to go
with his intermediate and long-range plan?
A Yes, these are the maps that illustrate the long-
range and short-range plan.
Q Let's look at the short-range plan for the
elementary schools.
A Would you rather look at the inside section or the
outside section first? They can't be shown on the same map.
Q Whichever one you think we should start with.
THE COURT: What's the difference in the outside?
THE WITNESS: The outside is the general portion,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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not including the central portion of the city. The
inside section shows the inside section at large, so
that you can decide about the school districts, etc.
THE COURT: Let's look at the inside, Mr. Chambers.
That's where there seems to be more controversy.
A (By the witness) The short-range is shown on this
part of the map; the school districts are shown in color.
And maybe the best way for me to make you understand it
would be to explain briefly the changes which I mentioned
yesterday from the elementary plan as it now exists.
(By Mr. Chambers) Would you show us those changes?
A In the Diggs section, a small portion of the
Mebane district is added to the Diggs district. Mebane
School is closed. Forest Park School is closed. And
Anderson Junior High School becomes the elementary school
for this district, and a small portion of the southern part
of the Forest Park district is added to Easton Elementary
School. The Brown district is enlarged a little bit; it's
^ut down a little bit on the east, and this section from
Brown is added to North and this section of Brunson is added
to North. But all of this makes relatively little difference
except it makes the district look better. All of this is
the uptown section.
Q You're pointing to the southwest section of that
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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district?
A The southwestern and the southern section; the
southwestern section of Brown and the eastern section of
Brunson is in the uptown section. Now, in the Kimberly
Park area, the portion of Kimberly Park west of the Cherry-
Marshall Expressway is added to the Whitaker district, and
the northwest corner of the Carver Crest district is added
to the Whitaker district. And the northern part of the
Brunson district is added to the Whitaker. The Kimberly
Park district remains the eastern portion of the present
district east of Cherry-Marshall. Carver Crest—
Q So we won't be misled, the green district here
indicating Kimberly Park, is that separate from the green
district of Brunson?
A Yes, it is.
0 So this small area here—
A That's the Kimberly Park district. Nov, Carver-
crest was closed as a regular school to be an elementary
school for the special education classes that are now at
Brunson. And the northeast corner of this district was
assigned to North Elementary School, and the southern
section of the Carver Crest district assigned to Brunson.
The section of Whitaker that existed south of Country Club
Road was assigned to Moore. A section of the Sherwood
Forest district on the southeast corner was assigned to
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Moore School. And the eastern section of the South Fork
School was assigned to Moore. The very eastern tip of
Moore was assigned to Brunson. A tiny little section in
the northeast corner assigned to Ardmore. And the northern
section of Ardmore was assigned to Brunson. And I believe
those are the changes in the middle or the interior area
that were proposed in the short-range plan.
Q What about the Waughtown?
A in the short-term plan, it wasn't changed, and
Bolton wasn't changed in the short-range.
Q You discussed the Fairview district?
A No.
Q Was there any change in Skyland or 14th Street?
A No. No change in either one of the South Park or—
no change in South Park or the Konnoak district or Latham.
Q Are those basically as you— have been retained
in the short-range plan by Dr. McGuffey?
A Yes.
Q Does this overlay show the changes in the long-
range plan?
A Yes, it does.
Q Would you indicate those changes?
A Let's start in the same section we were in before.
THE COURT: Before you leave that, Brown— what
did that affect, the change?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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' ’• '-vwt*
THE WITNESS: This change really didn't affect
pupils to any degree either in this section of Brunson
or this part of Brown, because practically all of this
is the business district; this is uptown. And this,
I believe, is the North-South Expressway, and all of
this is business development in the lower section on
this side.
THE COURT: Then as far as pupil population?
THE WITNESS: There's not any in there. It didn't
have any bearing. I tell you, it was done simply to
straighten up the district, to make it look better.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) The Brown would remain all
black?
A Brown would remain all black.
THE COURT: All right; go ahead.
Q One further question about the intermediate pro-
posal. The dotted lines that appear on the map are the
lines that presently exist here?
A Yes.
Q I'm talking about the change in the northern part
of Ardmore, the dotted line appearing in the green part of
Brunson.
A That is the line as it exists now.
Q All right.
A In the long-range proposal, we have attempted to
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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use some dash lines where the color exists behind it. It
was proposed in the long-range that Forest Park be reopened,
and Forest Park is here. It was proposed that Waughtown be
closed in the long-range, and that the northern portion of
Easton would be a part of a new Forest Park district. Only
the southern section of the present Forest Park district
would be Forest Park, and a little more than the southern
half of the Waughtown district would be in the long-range
Forest Park, and it would be open again for use as an
elementary school.
Q Just on the Forest Park now, these changes would
affect the racial composition of the Forest Park School,
would they not?
A These changes would make Forest Park practically
all white again.
Q But it would still have some black students?
A I don't believe it would.
Q Isn't there a small black section in here?
A There is a small black section, but I believe
that all of it would still be in the Easton section. I am
almost positive of it. The section that has black is just
north of the school, and the school is located right here
in this section (indicating), and right on down along there,
there might be a very few students but very few, if any.
It was proposed in the short-range plan that Mebane be closed
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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it was proposed in the long-range that a new Mebane School
be built further out and that the district be the present
Mebane district, the northern portion of the Forest Park
district, the northern portion of the Waughtown district,
and a portion of the Sedge Garden district on the west.
Q Is Diggs supposed to be included?
A Diggs would not be included. Diggs would con
tinue to operate as an elementary school, and with a section
of the South Park district would be added to Diggs.
Q Would the new Mebane district affect the racial
composition?
A Yes, it would. Mebane is presently all black;
the new Mebane district would be a combination of white and
black.
Q Would it be predominantly white?
A I do not know what the composition would be.
Q Would the change that would affect Diggs, would
that change the racial composition of Diggs?
A There is a business section in a portion just
immediately south. I believe it would take a small number
of white pupils into the Diggs.
Q Diggs is presently all black?
A Yes.
G Would there be any change proposed in the Brown
district?
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
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A In the long-range plan, the Brown district was
left as it originally was.
Q Would there be any change in the Cook?
A Wait just a minute. Let me come on around and
I think you'll understand. The North district would then
go back and be just as the North district is at the present
time. The Lowrance district would be in the long-range and
in the short-range just as it is. Now, it is different
from the present Lowrance district by this section on the
east side, which is assigned to Mineral Springs in the
School Board's plan.
Q There's no difference in the Lowrance district?
A The long and short-range, that's right. Now, in
the long-range, it's proposed that Kimberly Park district
be back exactly as it was. It is proposed that the Cook
district be back exactly as it was. Cook and Carver Crest—
since these maps were made, Carver Crest has been renamed
for the principal who died a year ago whose name was Cook,
and this is the new name of the elementary school.
Q Carver Crest Elementary—
A Carver Crest is Cook and the district would be
the same. In the long-range plan, the Brunson district, or
elementary, is back as it was. So the V/hitaker district is
again back as it was, and the Moore district is again back
as it was. And the Ardmore district is back as it was.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Q And the Bolton district remains the same?
A The Bolton district remains the same. And this
did not affect in Latham or Konnoak. In the long-range
plan, it did take the northern section of South Park.
Q That shows the changes both the short and long-
range plan?
A Yes.
Q Would you show us the outer area?
A In the section in the outlying district, if you
look at the dotted lines and the coloring, the only sections
that are changed in the short-range proposal is the change
of closing Carver Elementary and sending the elementary
students to Petree, and the southern section of Carver
district and in the northern section of Carver assigning
the students to Prince Ibraham. Now, the recommendation, I
believe, was that 200 students be moved from Mineral Springs
to Oak Summit, and about 175 students be moved from Lowrance,
and this now is a portion of the Lowrance district, be
moved into Mineral Springs. It wouldn’t affect the racial
mix at Oak Summit particularly, but it would add about 175
more black students to Mineral Springs.
Q And this?
A This did outline a proposed Prince Ibraham district
on short-range, but it did not in his proposal separate the
Oak Summit-Mineral Springs districts, but it assigned 100
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R a A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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more students to these schools; they're very close together.
And I believe in the short-range, that's it.
Q Would you describe what is proposed in the long-
range proposal?
A In the long-range proposal, a new Kernersville
School was proposed in the eastern section of the county,
and it would be made up of the eastern portion of the present
Kernersville district, a small portion of the north section
of the Sedge Garden, a small portion of the eastern section
of Petree, and the southeast corner of the Walkertown
district. And that is a new school, and that is the only
change in elementary on the east side. In the long-range
proposal, two sections were added to Prince Ibraham - a
little bit of the Petree section just south of the Ibraham
district was added to Ibraham, and the line was extended on
to the county line. And a section of the territory pre
sently in Oak Summit north of the Prince Ibraham district
was assigned to Prince Ibraham district. The Mineral
Springs-Oak Summit district was expanded to take off the
southern section of the Rural Hall district, and the south
eastern section of the present Old Town district. It was
proposed on the west that— it was proposed that the
district for Old Town be reduced to make it considerably
smaller, and the other districts around it be realigned.
So Rural Hall would only be changed by a portion on the
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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s outh t a k e n off to add to O a k S u m m i t - M i n e r a l Springs. Old
T o w n w o u l d b e c h a n g e d b y the s e c t i o n tha t wa s a s s i g n e d f rom
Ol d T o w n to M i n e r a l Spri n g s on the east, b y the n o r t h e r n
s e c t i o n of Old T o w n ' s p r e s e n t d i s t r i c t b e i n g a d d e d to Old
Richmond, .ana a s o u t h e r n s e c t i o n of the Old T o w n d i s t r i c t
b e i n g a d d e d to Vienna. T h e n the O l d T o w n district, n e w
p r o p o s e d district, w o u l d be e x p a n d e d b y a n o r t h e r n sect i o n
of the Speas d i s t r i c t and the s o u t h e a s t e r n tip of the Old
R i c h m o n d district.
THE COURT: Old Town is of population density
tha t still leaves Old Town utilized?
THE WITNESS: Yes. The u r b a n are a is e x p a n d i n g
a r o u n d the Old T o w n area. Thi s takes in the G r a n d v i e w
Development, I believe, a n d all the d e v e l o p m e n t ar o u n d
the Old T o w n School, and as he looks towa r d s the l ong-
range, it is e s t i m a t e d that this w o u l d fill u p this
building. Now, let me r e m i n d y o u — well, let me mak e
one other point. I fa i l e d to p o i n t out t h a t the
n o r t h e r n s e c t i o n of the O a k S u m m i t d i s t r i c t her e w o u l d
be a s s i g n e d to R ural Hall. I b e l i e v e I o v e r l o o k e d that.
An d let me r e m i n d y o u again, in the s h o r t - r a n g e plan,
this wa s 1 t h r o u g h 6; in the l o n g - r a n g e plan, it's a
p r o p o s a l of K t h r o u g h 5 or 1 t h r o u g h 5, w h i c h of
course chan g e s the n u m b e r of e l e m e n t a r y s t u dents that
w o u l d be l o c a t e d in any one of t hese districts.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8c A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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1<
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II
-1501
q (By Mr. Chambers) This is also true, Mr. Ward,
that one of the limitations under which Dr. McGuffey worked
was that he was not to pair or cluster any schools?
A If that direction were given to him, I'm not aware
of it.
q Does he set that out in the objectives?
A I believe he sets that out in the objectives,
but I don’t know that he was given that instruction.
Q But that was one of the guidelines that he
followed?
A That is one of the guidelines that he followed.
He did not cluster or pair schools. However, just in
defense of pairing, pairing is more effective and has been
done, I think, widely where there were two schools in the
same neighborhood, one of each race, which lends itself
very well to pairing. This really is a unitary school
system as far as districts are concerned, and you have to do
some extra extensive transportation
MR. CHAMBERS: We object to that, Your Honor,
and move to strike as not being responsive to my
question.
THE COURT: Motion allowed.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Do you recall also, Mr. Ward,
whether Dr. McGuffey considered in one of his limitations
non-assignment of white students to predominantly black
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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schools?
A If he did I'm not aware of it.
G His objectives are set out?
A They are.
Q Can we look at the short-range proposal for the
junior high schools?
A On the junior high maps? The overlay shows the
senior high, and it may be a little more difficult to show.
This is junior high underneath and senior high on the over
lay. So we ought to look at the short-range map first and
then look at the long-range. We have started in the
southeast corner; let’s start there again. In this pro
posal, Anderson Junior High School would be closed and the
Hill district would be expanded to include this portion of
the Anderson School district as a part of the Hill Junior
High School district, that is the biggest portion of the
Mebane Elementary district. The Diggs Elementary district
would be assigned to Philo, and a small portion of the
Mebane district - which is just north of Diggs - would also
be assigned to Philo. Really, this is one housing project
and space, is the reason it has been divided in half.
Q What about that?
A That has been assigned to Philo, that is a portion
of Latham that has been assigned to Philo all the time. No
proposed change in the Kennedy Junior High district except
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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this section that was taken off of Brown and Brunson that
has no children. And Hanes, the junior high school district,
would be reduced by this section on the east corner of
Lowrance that was assigned to Mineral Springs. Paisley
district originally was just Kimberly Park and Carver Crest.
The new Paisley district would include all of Kimberly Park,
the northern section of Brunson, and all of the present
Whitaker district, the northern tip on the northwest comer
of Carver Crest, and a portion of the Speas district just
north of the Brunson district. The Wiley district would be
changed by adding the southern section of Carver Crest
Elementary to that. It would be changed by taking the
northern section of Brunson and Whitaker off of it, to be
assigned to Paisley. The eastern portion of the Moore
district would be assigned from Dalton to Wiley, and the
northeast corner of Ardmore would then be assigned to Wiley.
This portion on tie north part of Latham is already part of
the Wiley district.
Q What about this section?
A This section on the southeast comer has been in
the Philo district all the time. The other change would be
in the elementary proposal of short-range, the section of
Whitaker south of Country Club was added to Moore and would
go on to Dalton in the junior high, and this section of
Sherwood Forest south of Country Club that was added to
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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Moore would be assigned to Dalton, and the section of South
Fork south of Country Club Road and on the east part of the
district that was assigned to Moore would also be assigned
to Dalton.
Q Does the overlay show that?
A The overlay shows the senior high. Would you
rather look at the other junior high first? Starting again
in the southeast corner, in the long-range plan the Hill
district is reduced back to somewhat the same as the original
Hill district. Anderson is opened again as a junior high,
and it includes this time when it's opened the old Mebane
district, the old Diggs district, the northern tip of the
South Park district, and the northwestern tip of the former
Forest Park district. I believe basically in the new
elementary proposal, it includes the new Mebane district
going out into and taking in a portion of the Sedge Garden
district and the northern portion of the Waughtown district.
The Kennedy district has been including the Brown-Fairview
sections; it is proposed now that the Kennedy Junior High
take in the southern portion of Brown and Skyland and
generally, I guess, what made up the approximate district of
Petree, in the Kennedy Junior High, in the building that
presently exists. It's proposed that a new middle school -
and he calls the middle school not junior high school
because it is 6, 7 and 8 - in his proposal be built somewhere
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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in the neighborhood of the Fairview School, and that would
include most of the lAth district, the Fairview district,
and the northern section of Brown. Now, this would desegre
gate the Kennedy Junior High, and this would basically
include all black schools in this district.
Q Would Anderson be desegregated under that proposal?
A Anderson would desegregate under that proposal.
The Hanes district is unchanged except that it shows this
section on the short-range plan that was assigned to
Mineral Springs - it shows it back in thn district. That's
this little section in here. The Paisley district in the
long-range proposal is reduced. It has basically Carver
Crest and Kimberly, plus a section just to the north of it
that was formerly a part of the Brunson-Wiley district.
Q Would that leave Paisley integrated?
A To a very small degree. This section that is
added up here does have - on the north, does have some
white homes in it. Other than that, both Carver Crest and
Kimberly districts as they exist now are all black.
THE COURT: What about Hanes, the racial composi
tion?
THE WITNESS: Hanes is now - or it may have ten
or fifteen whites in it, I believe, and this would not
change the racial composition, because I don't believe
it changes the district. It simply adds this section.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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in that section; the rest of them are black.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) And the new school you're pro
posing is all black, too?
A The new school that Dr. McGuffey is proposing
covers just black districts as is shown. Then the Wiley
district in the long-range plan is essentially the same
district that it originally was, taking Whitaker and Brunson
and the northern section of Latham. It is changed slightly
here, a larger portion of the Latham district is being
assigned to Philo, and the Dalton district then picks up
Moore School, as it originally was, most of Ardmore and
also Bolton. But it does include a section of South Fork
here, but the southern portion - a larger section of South
Fork than the short-range did, and it does not include this
section of Sherwood Forest that was originally assigned to
Moore and Dalton.
Q What does the "X" and arrow mean?
A This "X" and arrow indicates that a mistake was
drawn when that black line was drawn in there and you can't
get it out. This section— I believe this section should
be down in that district.
G The Wiley district?
A No, I think it should be in the Philo district.
I believe the arrow was made here, and that's in the Philo
I think there are maybe ten or fifteen whites that live
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district.
Q What about Carver Junior High School?
A In the long-range plan, I believe that goes into
Waughtown - probably it’s shown on the outside map.
G This green section, does it mean you're opening
Carver?
A The green section - I believe there is an arrow
there in the color— In his proposal, both in short and
long-range, he proposed to take the Central vocational
rehabilitation program and put it in the Carver area. I
believe that’s true in the short and long-range proposal.
How, that’s the senior high. Do you want to look at the
outside junior high?
G Yes.
A In the short-range proposal, the only change that
he has made - one that currently exists - would be to close
Carver and assign these sections, the southern section to
Walkertown and the northern section to Mineral Springs, and
this other from Lowrance to Mineral Springs.
Q Is there any change proposed in the Southwest
section?
A The only change that would affect Southwest section
at all would be this little section of South Fork that was
reassigned to Dalton, at the Junior high level.
Q Approximately how far is it across from the bottom
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to the top of the Southwest section?
A Roughly fourteen miles.
Q And the school sits in the middle of the section?
A Approximately in the middle. There it is, about
right there (indicating on map).
q The scale here is one inch equals one-half mile,
is that right?
A Yes.
Q Is the Northwest section changed?
A No.
Q Is the Mineral Springs district changed any?
A Changed by the addition that I’ve just explained,
the northern portion of Carver and a section of Hanes.
Q Is this the long-range proposal?
A That’s senior high. We're following in sequence -
I don't know of any other way to do this. In the long-range
proposal on the outside, Griffith, I believe, remains un
changed. Glenn is reduced by the expansion of the Anderson
district out in to take in the western portion of what is
now is Glenn territory. Kernersville district, I don't
believe, is affected except by the assignment of the north
east portion of the Glenn district from Glenn Junior High
to Kernersville Junior High. The Walkertown district
Q Going back to that - is that the southeastern
corner being assigned to Glenn Junior High?
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A Yes, it is. The southeastern portion is assigned
to Glenn. The Walkertown district has added to it the
Ibraham, the new Ibraham district, and taken away from it
Petree district. That was shown on the other map. The
Mineral Springs district is enlarged, I believe in the same
manner that they enlarged the Oak Summit-Mineral Springs
Elementary district, to take in a portion of the Rural Hall
and old Rural Hall district on the south, or former Old
Town district on the east, and it gives up to Northwest
the northern portion of the Oak Summit district, which would
be assigned to Northwest.
Q Now, the plan also proposes a new middle school?
A It proposes a new middle school out on the west
that would take in the district - the elementary district
of Vienna, Old Richmond, and the northwestern portion of
the Old Town Elementary district.
Q Would that new middle school be basically all
white?
A Yes, it would be basically all white, based upon
the pupils that live in that district.
Q Is that district about fourteen miles across, top
to bottom?
A I would guess about twelve, just looking at the
map.
Q And the school sits in the middle?
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No decision has been made about location of the
Has the Southwest district changed any?
The Southwest district has changed only by the
assignment of a greater portion of the South Fork to the
Dalton School district. That would be on the northeast
corner of the Southwest district. And the Jefferson district
has been reduced by the portion of the Northwest portion of
the Old Town Elementary district which was assigned to the
new middle school. And I believe that covers it on the
long-range.
Q Can we look now at the long-range changes for the
senior high?
A Would you rather look at the inside first?
Q Yes.
A That’s the bottom one. Starting again on the
south on this map - it doesn't show quite all the Parkland
district - it simply extends on as it's shown to the county
line in each case. The portion down here is assigned to the
Parkland district, which is outside of the city. And since
this is an overlay of the senior high map, the original
Parkland district, including the Philo and the Hill Junior
High districts prior to this short-range plan, actually the
portion that is added to Parkland in this proposal is this
section that I am outlining now, which is the Diggs Elemen-
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tary and the Mebane School Elementary district. This is
being added to Parkland in the short-range. There is no
change in the Atkins district. The only change in the—
well, I explained that change. In the city north, there is
no change in the Reynolds district. This is on the short-
range .
Q Atkins again is all black?
A Atkins in the short-range stays exactly as it is.
I believe we're through with this if you just want to ease
it on out. This is the interior district on the long-range,
and on the long-range proposal Hill Junior High School is
taken off of Philo - and I would remind you again, these are
four-year high schools that are proposed. And a new south
east high school is proposed, which would include the new
Anderson Junior High district and the new Hill and Glenn
Junior High School district. Now, that would leave Philo
with the Diggs section of the former Anderson district and
basically the Philo district, plus the Griffith district,
in Parkland. The Reynolds High School district would be
basically, I believe, as it was on the north except that I
believe that this new district shows Reynolds taking the
entire elementary district of Kimberly Park, whereas a small
portion of it is now assigned to North. And it only includes
the eastern portion, the portion east of Dalton Junior High
School. It only includes the eastern portion of the Dalton
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district, where it formerly included the entire Dalton
district. The other portion is assigned to West and is
shown on another map. This map really Just shows three of
the high schools, Parkland, the new southeast and Reynolds
and their districts.
Q Under the proposals, would the new southeast end
up predominantly white or black?
A It would be integrated. I'm not sure what the
degree would be. Looking at the short-range, we have
already talked Parkland and Reynolds and Atkins on the
inside. The East High School district would remain the
same except that the southern portion of the Carver district
would be assigned to East Senior High School. The North
district would remain the same with the exception of the
addition of the northern portion of the Carver district.
This section was switched from Lowrance to Mineral Springs
and doesn't affect it, because it's already assigned to the
Northwest High School. The Mount Tabor district would remain
the same, and the Southwest district would remain the same
with the exception of this little section of South Park that
was assigned to Dalton and Reynolds. And you've already
seen the Parkland district.
Q How far is it across this section from top to
bottom?
A Sixteen miles.
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0 Dees this show the top of the county?
A That's the top of the county line.
Q East sits in the middle of that?
A East sits approximately in the middle; it's right
along in there.
Q How far is it from east to west?
A Approximately ten miles.
THE COURT: You have other maps?
THE WITNESS: I have one more, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
A This shows the long-range, the territory outside
the city. I've shown you Parkland and Southeast and Reynolds.
The East High School district has been reduced by taking
away the Glenn Junior High School section and taking away
the V.'alkertown Junior High School section, with the exception
of the portion that was assigned to that new proposed
elementary school at Kernersville. And it has been extended
into the central city to take - I believe - most of the
14th Street and Skyland district into East. The new North
east Senior High takes basically the Walkertown district,
the Ibraham district, and includes probably a part of the
north end of Brown, Fairview and 14th Street, in the new
Northeast district. The North Forsyth district has been
reduced by taking the Ibraham district off of it and taking
the Old Richmond section and the northern part of the Old
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Town Elementary section away from it, and the Mount Tnbor
district has been expanded to the northwest to take Old
Richmond, Vienna, and the portion of Old Town which was not
assigned to Mount Tabor. And West Forsyth has been reduced
by taking off the Vienna district but adding the eastern
portion of the Dalton School district - no, excuse me, the
western portion of the Dalton School district which was
taken away from Reynolds High School was added to West
Senior High.
Q Does the North Forsyth district extend farther
down into the city?
A I believe it extends the same distance that it
presently does.
Q And that takes care of the map for the immediate
and long-range proposals?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we would like to
identify these maps.
THE COURT: All right. Before you do - get out
your map on the elementary short-range plan on inside
and just hold it up there a minute.
THE WITNESS: You want to see the short-range?
THE COURT: Up around the Kimberly Park area, Mr.
Ward - I know you covered this, but I am not sure that
I am clear. The Kimberly Park, Cook or Carver Crest,
Whitaker, Brunson, and the areas there, tell me what
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Dr. McGuffey's plan is with reference to that, as you
understand it. You have already explained it, but I
am not sure I understand it all.
THE WITNESS: Let's key on Cook-Carver Crest,
because he closes that as a regular elementary school.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: And takes the special education
classes, which number - I think the total number of
students is somewhere between 200 and 250, and assigns
them to this school from Brunson. These students come
from all over the whole county into Brunson and are
gifted special education students, and that program
is supposed to be moved from Brunson into Carver Crest.
THE COURT: Making it a—
THE WITNESS: It would be an elementary school
of some 250 students, only the gifted students. And
he was proposing that the rest of that space be used
for administrative purposes.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: And then he proposed to change the
Whitaker district, and maybe if I start with that
district and show you the additions and subtractions
he proposed - that the southern section of the Whitaker
district south of Country Club Road be assigned to
Moore School.
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THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: This section.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: On the additions to the Whitaker
district would be this northern section of Brunson.
Brunson is an irregular shape and extends to the north
of the Carver Crest and Kimberly district. He pro
poses to take that northern section right in here of
Brunson and assign it to Whitaker, and all of the
Kimberly Park students living west of the Cherry-
Marshall Expressway would also be assigned to Whitaker.
And the northern tip of the Carver Crest district,
which is west of the expressway, would also be assigned
to Whitaker. Then the northeast section of the Carver
Crest district would be assigned to North Elementary,
and the southern section of it would be assigned to
Brunson.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Now, over in the Moore district, a
section of it was taken off the east and added to
Brunson.
THE COURT: Wait just a minute now.
THE WITNESS: Moore is just south of Whitaker.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: And the eastern section was assigned
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to Brunson.
THE COURT: To Brunson.
THE WITNESS: And the northern tip of Ardmore
was assigned to Brunson.
THE COURT: To take care of what they had taken
off on the other—
THE WITNESS: This is to fill Brunson again.
THE COURT: You have some substantial mix in
Brunson as it now is. Does that change the racial mix,
as you recollect it, to an integrated school?
THE WITNESS: It ought to leave a pretty good
racial mix, because if you assign all the special
education students to Carver Crest, you take a sub
stantial number out of them. There are probably more
elementary black students transfer into Brunson from
other sections of the city than anywhere else. If
they were all assigned back to their home districts,
then the amount— well, the number of blacks would be
relatively small in Brunson School, but you are assign
ing a large number of blacks from the Cook district
into Brunson. So the racial mix would probably be as
much as it is or probably a little more.
THE COURT: What about Whitaker in the plan?
THE WITNESS: Whitaker would have a rather sub
stantial racial mix, because you're assigning a large
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number from Kimberly Fark and several students from
Cook also into Whitaker.
THE COURT: And you have very little there now?
THE WITNESS: Very little. I think there are
probably three or four students.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Would Kimberly Park end up
with a smaller number of students than it has?
A It might be sliglfLy smaller. I think we have
four trailers there now, so it would not be too much under
its capacity.
Q You indicate taking a substantial number of
students from Kimberly Park and assigning them to Whitaker?
A I don't know the exact number, but I do know there
are four trailers.
THE COURT: You have 778 according to one of the
exhibits; all are black there.
THE WITNESS: That's right.
THE COURT: Now in Kimberly Park.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) The proposal indicates that it
would end up with 660 black and no white in Kimberly Park.
A That's a little bit under its capacity.
Q Diggs will remain all black, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And Latham would remain 450 white and 12 black?
A There's no change proposed, I believe, in that
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district.
Q You indicated a moment ago that pairing would mean
taking certain grades from Diggs and assigning them to
Latham and certain grades from Latham and assigning them to
Diggs?
A I did not make that statement.
Q How far would those schools be apart?
A Not quite three miles.
Q How far would South Park be from Diggs?
A About two and a half miles.
Q This shows four inches equal one mile.
A Excuse me. This is a different scale. Latham to
Diggs is about a mile and a half. It's a little less than
that to South Park.
Q Let me see your rule. This is South Park here?
A Yes.
Q About a mile and a quarter to South Park and
about a mile and a half from Diggs to Latham?
A That1s right.
THE COURT: What are you measuring with? You say
it’s only a mile and a half—
MR. CHAMBERS: From Diggs to Latham.
THE COURT: From Diggs to Latham, yes.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) And about a mile and a quarter—
A This scale is different. It's twice as large as
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the scale on the outside map.
Q Would you tell us approximately how far the
students at Kimberly Park would be traveling to Whitaker
Elementary School?
A Not quite two miles.
Q A little under two miles?
A About a mile and three quarters. All of these are
as the crow flies.
Q Tell me approximately how far the kids on the
northern edge of Cook - Carver Crest - would be traveling
to Whltaker Elementary.
A About a mile and a half.
Q It's possible, is it not, Mr. Ward, to pair or
cluster those three schools there to accomplish a greater
amount of integration?
A Anything is possible.
Q At Diggs now you have 709 black students and no
whites? That’s what’s proposed under the McGuffey plan.
And at South Park now, you have 536 and 4 black, and at
Latham you have 415 white and 12 black. Skyland would end
up all black under this proposal. I believe that adjacent
to it is Petree?
A Yes.
Q Y/hat school is this in the southern section
adjacent to Skyland?
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A That touches the southern corner - that would be
Sedge Garden.
Q Sedge Garden under the plan would end up 935 white
and 7 black. Approximately how far is it - is Skyland
from Sedge Garden?
A Now, you are speaking from school to school,
aren't you?
Q Yes.
A About four and a half miles.
THE COURT: Sedge Garden gets out in the rural
area?
THE WITNESS: Sedge Garden is here; this is
Kernersville and Sedge Garden and Skyland's right in
here.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) What is the school district
northwest of Lowrance?
A This is Mineral Springs, just north of it. Beyond
it over here is the Speas district.
Q How far is Speas from Lowrance approximately?
A A little bit over three miles, about three and
a quarter or a half, something like that.
And Lowrance under the proposal would end up with
562 black and 12 white, and Speas would end up with 996
white and 2 black.
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MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble?
CROSS EXAMINATION
C (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, in the short-range
McGuffey proposal, you stated that he stated he would close
Carver Crest - and I use that term rather than ’'Cook” just
to keep it in line with the old name of the school for
identification. He would close Carver Crest which is now
an elementary school as a school for the neighborhood in
which it is located and would make of it a combination
special education school and administrative office building,
is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q The children who presently go to the special
education classes attend Brunson, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And there are about how many children there?
A Somewhere between 200 and 250 in these classes.
G Is that the total population, is that the total
school population at Brunson?
A No, it is not.
Q What is the total number of pupils at Brunson?
A I don't recall. It would be something over 600.
Q Now, from an educational standpoint - well,
strike that. Under the McGuffey proposal, would the only
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children attending Carver Crest be the special education
children?
\ Yes, that would be true.
Q From an educational standpoint, is it considered
desirable or undesirable for the special education children
to be in a school by themselves?
A It is much better for gifted special education
students to be in a school where they have opportunity to
mix with all other students.
0 So that in your opinion it would be educationally
undesirable, it would be a bad change from an educational
standpoint, to take the special education children from
Brunson where they are now in association with three or four
hundred other students and put them over into a school where
they would be isolated by themselves?
A That would be bad.
THE COURT: When you say special education, in
this context here, are you talking about the gifted
child?
THE WITNESS: We're talking about the gifted
child.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, at the present time, how far
do the children in the Carver Crest attendance area have to
go to get to school?
A All of them are less than half a mile.
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0 Now, if Carver Crest were closed to the students
who reside in the present Carver Crest district, how far
would they have to go to get to the various schools to which
they would be assigned under the McGuffey plan, short-range
plan?
A The students assigned to North, at the extreme
distance, would have nearly three-quarters of a mile.
Q And some of them would have maybe half a mile?
A Some of them would have half a mile; it would vary.
The closest ones would be less than a half a mile.
Q To North?
A To North. The students at the closest point to
Brunson would be about three-quarters of a mile. The
greatest distance would be almost a mile - no, about a mile
and a quarter. The ones who were traveling to Whitaker
would have a little bit more than a mile and a half.
Q Now, those are as the crow flies distances, or
straight line?
A Yes, as the crow flies.
Q Now, because of the existence of the Children's
Home property between the Carver Crest and the Whitaker
School areas, how much additional distance would they have
to go to get from Carver Crest to Whitaker?
A That would probably add at least a half a mile
extra for them to get to Whitaker.
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0 How far do the Kimberly Park students in the
northwestern area of the Kimberly Park district now have to
go to get to school?
A About three-quarters of a mile for the fartherest
one.
Q And how about the nearest one?
A Less than a quarter of a mile for the ones
assigned that way.
Q And under the short-range McGuffey plan, how far
would they have to go to get to the Whitaker School?
A
miles.
As the crow flies, about one and three-quarter
Q And it would add—
A Roughly half a mile.
Q For them also?
A For them also to go to Whitaker.
Q So it would probably be two more miles for them?
A Yes.
Q Maybe a mile and a quarter to Whitaker?
MR. CHAMBER: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: To the leading?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Sustained.
(By Mr. Womble) How far do you say that the
students who reside in the Kimberly Park portion assigned
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by McGuffey to Whitaker would have to go in order to get to
Whitaker, actually go? In other words, what the actual
travel distance would be.
A A little over two miles, maybe two and a quarter.
Q Now, under the present plan of operation of the
school system - strike that. Are both, are all three -
Whitaker, Carver Crest ana Kimberly Park Schools, within
the City of V/inston-Salem?
A All three of them are.
Q And at the present time, is there any transporta
tion provided for city students attending any of those
schools?
A No, there is not.
G You were asked about Diggs and Latham and South
Park. How far are the Diggs students from their school at
the present time under the present assignment?
A A little over half a mile, not quite three-
quarters .
G Is that for the closest or the fartherest?
A That's for the fartherest away. The closest, of
course, live light around the school.
Q And what is the nature of the district served by
Diggs School?
A Diggs School basically serves a housing project
just to the north and west of it, and there is a highway
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under construction just to the east that makes it very-
difficult to get to that point from the east.
Q What is the western boundary of Diggs, of the
Diggs area?
A The western boundary of the Diggs area is
generally Main Street and Salem College and the park down
through there, the business district.
Q Is it a busy district? Does it carry heavy-
traffic, or what kind of area is it from the standpoint of
being a business district?
A It is the main artery from the south right into
the center of town, and I believe it is Highway 52 and 8
goes up through that street.
C Now, what would the effect be from the standpoint
of traffic in district to school if children in the Diggs
area were sent to Latham, and if children in the Latham
area were assigned to Diggs?
A I don't believe there is any place in the city
that would be more difficult to exchange students from the
standpoint in the manner in which the streets run, and the
problems of traffic - crossing the main artery through here -
1 don't believe there would be any place in the city being
more difficult tc get transportation from two adjoining
schools than between Diggs and Latham because of the
problems of the locations of the two and the manner in which
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the streets lead into them and the busy thoroughfare that
goes in between.
0 Now, what about the traffic arteries and the
business areas between Diggs and South Park, and what routes
would one have to follow in order to get from the Diggs area
to South Park and vice versa?
A Well, there is a substantial business district
just south of Diggs, and any transportation from Diggs
through to South Park would have to be through this district,
this business district, either down to Sprague and across
and down South Main Street, or from Diggs down Waughtown
Street through an even more heavily traveled business
district, and down there to South Park.
C Mr. Chambers also asked you about Skyland and
Petree. What is the distance between the two schools?
A It's not quite two miles as the crow flies.
G Now, is there a direct route by streets to get
from one of those schools to the other?
A It is necessary to go about four or five blocks
west and then a block south before you can start back east
to Petree School from Skyland.
Q Now, this map indicates that the Skyland area
includes an area north of the school that is west of Petree
and appears to be geographically closer to Petree than to
Skyland. What is the reason for assigning pupils in the
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northern part of the Skyland area to Skyland rather than to
Petree?
A Actually there is a good street that runs, or
highway and street that runs directly through this area
assigned to Skyland and almost by the Skyland School, within
a block of the school. In order to travel from this section
to Petree School, you have to make a loop, which is almost
the same distance and over a little more difficult circum
stances.
Q What do you mean by more difficult circumstances?
A It's a direct street from this area into Skyland
with no stop streets and no stop lights, and there are
several stop streets and direction changes and intersections,
and so forth, to go from that area around the loop and up to
Petree. There is no direct access between this northern
section of Skyland and Petree School.
Q At the present time, what is the racial mix at
Petree?
A It shows 49 black and 280 white, for a total of
330.
MR. WOMBLE: I think that's all.
THE COURT: Anything by the county?
Mil. LIGON: I'd like to ask one question, if I
may, Your Honor.
0 (By Mr. Ligon) Mr. Ward, these plans that you
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have talked about, did the Board of County Commissioners
participate in any way in the preparation of the plan?
A No.
MR. LIGON: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Mr. Mitchell?
FURTHER EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Mitchell) Mr. Ward, has any state official
ever recommended any form of pupil assignment plan to the
Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education?
A No.
Q Did any state official participate in the selection
of the local Board's plan of pupil assignment?
A No.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'd like to request a
clarification. I assume that he's talking now about
the plans that have been submitted to the Court. If
not, I would call the Court's attention to the North
Carolina Pupil Assignment Plan. I don't know whether
ne means to include that.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection. Make your
question more specific then, Mr. Mitchell.
Q (By Mr. Mitchell) We are referring here, Mr.
Ward, to the plan chosen by the local Board and other plans
considered by the local Board.
A No.
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0 Diet any slate official communicate in any way
with any member of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board
of Education regarding pupil assignment?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Would it be correct to say that neither the State
Board of Education or the Superintendent - the State Super
intendent of Public Instruction participated in any manner
in the local Board's choice of the pupil assignment plan?
A That statement is correct.
MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: I just have a few more questions.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, you indicated to Mr.
Womble that you had a lot of traffic and difficulty in
commuting between Diggs and Latham?
A That is correct.
Q Do you present have students assigned across this
business barrier, so-called business barrier?
A I believe that street right now is the dividing
line at that point.
Q What about at South Park?
A There are students assigned to cross the North-
South Main Street in the South Park area.
Q The same 52 you're talking about runs right
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through the middle of South Park, doesn't it?
A That's right.
Q And it doesn't quite present the barrier there?
A Not to the same extent, because in that section
there's not a business district as it is in the portion
where you cross in the transportation— you only need to
drive between Diggs and Latham to understand the problem.
Q Are you telling the Court that the only way to
get between Diggs and Latham is directly across that boundary
line?
A I'm telling the Court that there is not really a
good way to get from Diggs to Latham.
Q And this same barrier that you're talking about
then doesn't serve as a barrier in the South Park district?
A It’s radically different in the South Park
district.
Q Nor does it serve as a barrier in the northeastern
part of the Latham School district?
A The northeastern part of the Latham School district,
that doesn't have the same business problem. There are very
few students in this section. The real problem is the
business area right here where the traffic from Diggs would
cross to Latham. There are problem centers right in here
in the way to get there, and there is no good way to go
around it without a great deal of added difficulty.
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0 Would you tell the Court whether 52 further north
.-eparates the boundary of the Latham School district?
A Yes, it follows on through the Latham district
and cuts off the Old Salem division of the Latham district
to the east.
Q Would you tell the Court whether students presently
cross that same busy district to get to the Latham School?
A There are a few students crossing this street
further north.
And the only Time that it gets to be a barrier is
when is between a black district and a white district?
A That is not true.
G That's the only time you pointed out, isn't it?
A The only time I pointed out is where in a business
district where the streets cross that are very difficult.
Q And that's between the black Diggs district and
the white Latham district?
A It happens to be that way, but that doesn't happen
to be the reason.
Q You indicated that there was some barrier between
Diggs and South Park?
A I aid. There is a substantial business district
just south of the Diggs School.
Would you tell the Court whether that business
district just south of the Diggs School serves as a barrier
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between students going from the southern part of the Diggs
district to Diggs, or from the northern part of the South
Park School to South Park?
A There is a business district and very few students
live in the section just south of Diggs. If there are any
students In there, I am not sure.
Would you tell the Court whether some students
presently cross that busy district?
A I do not know.
Again the only barrier that comes up is when you
are going from black Diggs district to the white South Park
district?
A That's your statement. That is not true.
Q Is that where you pointed out the barrier?
A I pointed out the business district because the
business district is there and not because it's white and
black.
Q It just so happens because it is between the black
Diggs district and the white South Park district?
A That is true there, and if you will consider other
places in the community, there are certain barriers that
cause peculiarly shaped school districts.
0 And you have running between the Moore School
district Interstate 40, is that correct?
A At the present time the Moore School district is_
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Interstate 40 is the boundary.
In the proposal under this plan it would have the
Interstate 40 running directly through the center of the
district?
A According to Dr. McGuffey's proposal.
t And you have students crossing an interstate
highway?
A Yes.
Q Going to the Moore School?
A That's correct.
Q The same thing for the Brunson School district?
A That's correct.
Q And the same thing in the Skyland School district?
A That's correct.
Q So here you have a busy interstate highway
running directly in the midst of a school district?
A 'That's correct.
permits white students to cross that busy
intersection, or that busy highway, to get to a white
school, and it permits black students to cross that busy
highway to get to a black school, but it won't permit
either white kids to go to a black school or black kids to
go to a white school?
A You're attempting to make black and white of it.
If you just go look at the situation there, you'll understand
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why I mentioned it.
0 (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, do the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth—
THE COURT: Just a minute. Are you through?
MR. CHAMBERS: No.
MR. WOMBLE: I'm sorry.
MR. CHAMBERS: We have prepared a document from
the statistics that have been furnished us which we
would like to identify as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 76,
which shows the percentages—
CLERK IDOL: Excuse me. 71, Plaintiffs' Exhibit
71 marked for identification.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 71
for identification.)
THE COURT: When you all get to a point where
we can take our morning recess— if we go too much
longer we might waive the right.
MR. CHAMBERS: I just have one other question.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I show you this document which
we have computed which shows the ratio of black and white
kids that would be in integrated-segregated schools under
the McGuffey plan and under the Board's plan as it presently
exists. Do you have any reason to doubt that those ratios
or percentages as shown are not true?
A I assume that you followed the plans and I have no
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reason to doubt it.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we would like to
identify as Plaintiffs' Collective ExhMt 72 the
maps that have been prepared accompanying the
McGuffey plan.
THE COURT: All right.
(The documents above referred to were
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 72
for identification.)
THE COURT: Are you offering 71 and 72 into
evidence?
MI.. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir. We'd like to offer all
of them.
MR. MOODY: We have the same objection, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Dc you people want to examine the
Exhibit 71?
MR. V/OMBLE: Yes, sir, we object to 71 - no sub
stantiation of it.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to point out that those
percentages can be taken by the Court for whatever
they're worth. They are taken from the statistics
given to us by the School Board.
Mk . MITCHELL: Your Honor, of course we object to
all cf this evidence - the maps and these statistics
and everything.
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MH. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Let me see this last exhibit - 71,
that is. Let me see a copy of that. Mathematics is
not always an exact science with me, and my concern is
that there might be some honest error with this, and
I assume that that would be correctable if after
examining it you all should find that there is some
thing. I am a little reluctant to let it go in without
giving the defendants an opportunity to examine it,
but I am going to let 71 go in with the understanding
that after you have examined it, if there is any
exception to it, you may do so in writing.
Mu. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we object to it not only
because there is no certainty as to the accuracy of the
figures, but this involves mathematic computations
based upon somebody's definition of segregated and
desegregated schools, and that in itself - we find it
differs in different people's minds.
THE COURT: That's a point of argument on that.
MR. WOMBLE: It shows '69-70, two and four percent,
four percent of whites in desegregated schools, two
percent of blacks in desegregated schools. We take
exception to that. It's getting down into terms which
are in themselves indefinite, and we do object to this
exhibit.
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MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, if it would help
matters, we would Just hold up offering 71 until Dr.
Larsen - he prepared this.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Plaintiffs’
Exhibit 72 is received into evidence; that counsel for
the defendants object. The maps - I am letting come
on in and showing an objection to all of them.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Plaintiffs' Exhi
bit No. 72 for identification, were
received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Let’s see. When we come back after
our recess, Mr. Ward will have concluded his testimony?
Mr. Chambers, anything further of Mr. Ward?
MR. CHAMBERS: No, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: I Just have one or two questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, Mr. Chambers was saying
that under this districting of Moore, the Interstate 40
highway goes through the middle of the district. Did the
Board of Education adopt this proposal of Dr. McGuffey’s?
A No, it did not.
0 Under the plan as adopted and enforced by the
Board of Education, is Interstate 40 a boundary?
A Yes, it is, for the Moore School district.
Q So Interstate 40 does not go through the district?
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Not at this time.
MR. Y/OMBLE: That's all.
MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Ward, just let me ask one
question.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I think this has been brought
out before, but just again to point out for the record, all
moneys that you have locally for operating the schools come
from the County Commissioners?
A That is correct.
a And you receive approximately sixty to eighty per
cent of your operating funds from the State Board of Educa
tion?
A Slightly more than sixty percent.
a Slightly more than sixty?
A Yes.
a How does it run? About sixty percent from the
State and about thirty percent from the local government and
about ten percent from the federal government?
A It's about five percent from the federal govern
ment, about thirty-five locally, I think.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
MR. MOODY: Let me ask a question.
0 (By Mr. Moody) You're talking about state funds;
that's current expenses?
A Current operation only.
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Mu. Y/OMBLE: Your Honor, I have one other question.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Y/omble) Mr. Ytfard, yesterday you were askec
about the cost of local school bus transportation at the
present time, and as I recall, you testified that your best
recollection at that time was that it was two or three
hundred thousand dollars a year for the operation of the
local school bus system. Have you since checked your
figures and found out what the accurate figures are?
A Yes, I have.
Q What are they?
A The cost is about three hundred and seventy
thousand dollars.
Q $370,000.00?
A Approximately $370,000.00.
G That would be the current year’s?
A The current operation cost.
Q And it would be true for the year '69-70?
A Yes.
Q Of that amount, how much is furnished by the
Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education?
A About $111,000.00.
Q And about $260,000.00 then is furnished by the
state?
A Yes.
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MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
Mi;. MOODY: Now, if we're going to furnish state
funds, Your Honor, I would go into the little angle of
it - it won't take much time.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Moody) Vhen you get state funds, either
for the current expense funds, you don't normally— the
capital outlay doesn't come from the state, does it?
A That is correct.
Q Now, when you get state funds allocated to you
and go into your budget, don't you control the expenditure
of these funds?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. That's a conclusion of
law.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Moody) Who handles the disbursements
after the funds come to you?
A The local school system.
MR. MOODY: That's all.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further? All
right; you may come down, Mr. Ward.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Let's take a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
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TIE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to call Dr. Jack Larsen.
TIE COURT: Mr. Idol mentioned that there was
some change about marking the maps, and maybe for the
record we should get t at resolved. Now, you were
going to mark each map separately? Was that the idea?
CLERK IDOL: Yes, Your Honor. 72-A would be the
elementary long, short, inside. 72-B the elementary
long and short outside. 72-C —
MR. WOMBLE: Hold that just a second. 72-A?
CLERK IDOL: Elementary long and short inside.
72-B would be the elementary long and short outside.
72-C would be the junior and senior high short inside.
72-D would be junior and senior high short outside.
72-E would be junior and senior high long inside.
72-F would be junior and senior high long outside.
Short and long meaning—
MR. Y/OMBLE: You do have reference to McGuffey on
each of those, do you?
CLERK IDOL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Any objection to changing the Exhibit
72 to those subdivisions?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Lot the record so reflect.
(The documents above referred to were
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marked Plaintiffs' Exhibits Nos.
72-A through 72-F for identification
and were received in evidence.)
Q
A
G
A
Q
WHEREUPON,
JACK L. LARSEN
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
(By Mr. Chambers) Ycur name is Dr. Jack Larsen?
That's right.
You have testified in this matter previously?
In the January hearing.
Dr. Larsen, following the January hearing, did you
receive a request from the plaintiffs to prepare a plan
vhich would provide for racial mixing of students in each
school in the system?
A Yes, sir. You called me within a few days after
the close of the January hearing and asked me to do just
that, to prepare a plan based upon data available to me
that would effectually desegregate every school in the
system.
Q Did you undertake to prepare such a plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the Court briefly what you did in
:erms of preparation - not actually the plan itself, but how
rou went about preparing a plan and gathering whatever data
rou needed.
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A Yes, sir. First I took from the answers to
interrogatories and other exhibits that have been made
available to me the numeral figures in every school in the
district, the enrollment figures and the capacity figures
in each school, and the site acreage, the present enrollments
by race, and by attendance area. Working with this data
then I prepared for my own purposes various tables for
reference.
Q Did you visit the city?
A Yes, on two different occasions. Between the
time I started on the plan, about the 1st of February, and
now I visited the city in the middle of March two days -
March 12th and 13th - and I visited the city for a three-
day stay at the end of March - March 30th through April 1st,
and I was in the city again last Tuesday, April 14th. And
then joined you in Charlotte Wednesday to return here at the
day of trial.
Q Did you locate every school in the system?
A Yes, sir.
3 Would you tell the Court what you observed, or
what you did in looking at the schools?
A My charge from your office was not to make a
curriculum study or make a study on construction, but a
study on pupil assignment to reach a greater desegregation.
Therefore, I did not enter the building. I tried to get
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an overall view of the attendance areas, areas in which the
schools are, access to the school building sites end
this type of thing, so that when I worked with the data I
would have at least something of a picture of the school in
my mind as I thought about it.
Q You looked at every school in the system?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how many elementary schools are there?
A Forty.
Q How many junior high schools?
A Seventeen.
G Plow many senior high schools?
A Nine.
G And you physically observed each of those
facilities and the surrounding areas?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mow, you have prepared a suggested plan for
desegregation of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County schools?
A I have.
MR. CHAMBERS: I would like to identify Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 73, a document entitled " A Suggested Plan for
Desegregation of the Y/inston-Salem/Forsyth County
Public Schools."
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 73
for identification.)
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Q Do you have a copy of this, Dr. Larsen?
A Yes.
MR. MITCHELL: Y/e'd like to hove the same
objection.
MR. LIGON: And also the county.
THE COURT: All right. I'll wait - you haven't
offered it yet, I'll wait— he hasn't offered it yet,
but I'll wait and let you object when he offers it.
On the first page of this document, you set out
certain objectives and definitions. Basically what objective
did you have in mind in preparation of the plan?
A The one authority cited, I think that is awful
important, when one undertakes a job like this, that he
states succinctly what his objectives or goals are, and I
tried to do this. Objective number one being - the goal I
tried to reach - all elementary schools in the district will
be desegregated and quality education to be maintained and
increased as the district moves towards integrated education,
and finally this will be accomplished with a minimum of
pupil transportation, and as much as possible students will
attend the schools nearest their homes consistent with the
full integration or full desegregation of the system.
THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel for
the defenderts State Board of Education, Superintendent
of State Board of Education, and County of Forsyth and
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School Board, all the defendants object to this testi
mony, and the objection is overruled. All right; go
ahead.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, would you let the
record reflect the basis for their objection?
THE COURT: All right. State your objections,
starting with the state, and we’ll go counter-clockwise,
so your objection will go on the record.
MR. MOODY: The objection for the state, may it
please the Court, is that it had no part in this, it
is not legally responsible for plans of desegregation,
and so far as the state is concerned - not being
legally liable - it is utterly irrelevant.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ligon.
MR. LIGON: Your Honor, the county objection is
the same, that is that it is irrelevant to this
defendant.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Our objection primarily is to the
idea that this approach is not under our interpretation
of the lav; for the purpose of merely complying with the
constitutional requirements, but it is for the purpose
of achieving the sociological results that are deemed
desirable by the witness.
THE COURT: All right. The Court reiterates that
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the objections are overruled. All right; go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Now, Dr. Larsen, in your
definitions, you set out what you mean by a desegregated
school. Would you just explain that?
A Yes, sir. I have defined it for my own purposes,
for the purposes of the plan, a desegregated school is one
in which the racial composition of the student body reflects
within a range of ten percentage points the racial composi
tion of the grade level in the district as a whole.
Q You also set out your definition of a segregated
school?
A Yes, sir, for my purposes and for the purposes of
the plan, I defined a segregated school as one in which the
minority race constitutes less than ten percent of the
student body in that school.
Q Does this definition hole for all school systems?
A No, not necessarily. I don't pretend to show
that. I used that in drawing up the plan for the Winston-
Salem/Forsyth County system. It does seem to me to be a
reasonable usage of the term of segregation and desegrega
tion.
Q What did you mean by a racially mixed school?
A Having defined the desegregated school as I have
and the segregated school as I have, then a racially mixed
school, I have defined as one in which the minority race of
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the student body is more than ten percent of the total, but
less or more than the range appropriate for a desegregated
school.
Q Would you give an example of what you mean?
A Of course a school which would have in Winston,
in this district, a desegregated school - if we say that
the racial composition of black is 25 percent in the
district, I'll say, the desegregated school then would range
from 15 percent to 35 percent black. A segregated school
would be less than 10 percent black. A racially mixed
school would be somewhere between 10 percent black and 15
percent black, or at the other end of the spectrum, over
35 percent black.
Q Now, would you briefly tell us what your proposal
is?
A Yes, sir. Would you like me to go through it
step by step?
Q Yes.
A In attempting to desegregate a school district,
it is roost useful to begin with the elementary schools - I
think that's obvious. This plan, this approach in the area
of elementary school desegregation is based upon three
categories. What I tried to do is to take the elementary
schools and district them, and by examining them on the map
on the basis of the data, establish three categories. Nay I
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step down, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
A I'm sorry these are not painted as well as the
McGuffey plans. The blue border area, Your Honor, I have
identified as the inner city category of elementary schools.
The blue border is the outside border of the inner city
school area.
Q Would you name those schools?
A Yes. Brown Elementary School, Carver Crest Ele
mentary, Fairview Elementary, 14th Street Elementary, Mebane
Elementary, and Skyland Elementary, and finally North
Elementary School. I have admittedly arbitrarily drawn or
selected those seven schools as constituting the inner city
core, and the blue line is the present outside attendance
area incorporating all of the attendance areas of those
seven schools.
Q You mean the blue line that is drawn on the over
lay?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, for purposes of clarity,
we would like to identify that overlay as Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 74.
THE COURT: All right.
(The document above referred to was
marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 74 for identification.)
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Q (By Mr. Chambers) All right; would you proceed?
A Having done that, I then proceeded in analyzing
the district and I categorized what I called - just for
identification purposes - the middle rim schools. These
are the schools, Your Honor, these present attendance areas
rather, border the inner city. And I have drawn lines that
way.
Q What color is that line?
A This is the red line.
G Would you give us the names of the schools in the
middle rim?
A Yes, sir. The middle rim schools include Lowrance
at the northern section here, Kimberly Park here, Diggs falls
in here. These are the present predominantly to exclusively
black schools in this middle rim area. The middle rim also
then includes Ardmore Elementary School, Brunson Elementary
School, Forest Park Elementary, Prince Ibraham Elementary,
Latham Elementary, Mineral Springs Elementary, Moore Elemen
tary, Petree Elementary, Sherwood Forest Elementary, South
Pahk Elementary, Speas Elementary, and Whitaker Elementary
Schools. I also included in the middle rim the present
Carver Elementary School attendance area, but I had suggested
closing Carver Elementary School as an elementary school
and converting the Carver building to a senior high school,
housing grades 10 through 12. However, for the purposes of
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assigning children, we must consider in the middle rim the
Carver Elementary School. The several schools in the middle
rim area add up to 7,073 white elementary students and
2,7^3 black elementary students, or for a black ratio of
27.9 percent, which is very close to the ratio of the black
students in the district as a whole. You will note, Your
Honor, that as Mr. Ward brought out in his testimony yester
day, the Board as of this year had not drawn attendance area
lines between Oak Summit and Mineral Springs and between
Mineral Springs and Prince Ibraham and Oak Summit. They had
used Mineral Springs, Prince Ibraham and Oak Summit as one
attendance area and have assigned students to those three
schools on the basis of nearness. I have taken the liberty
of drawing a dotted red line just to give some idea of an
outside border for that middle rim attendance area. This
is, as you can see, only a suggestion. Not having a pupil
locater map and not knowing where every student lives, I
could not precisely draw the line, but I thought it was
important to show a separation from this attendance area,
its separation from Valkertcwn and Oak Summit.
Q Would you go ahead then? You have identified an
outer rim, a group of elementary schools also?
A Yes. The three categories again are the inner
city area, the middle rim, and I have identified what I
have called the outer rim elementary schools.
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Q Would you sort of point out where they are on the
map?
A These are thirteen schools which are outside of
theareas I have established. They are as follows, in
alphabetical order. Bolton Elementary School right here;
Clemmons Elementary out in the county; Griffith Elementary;
Kernersville Elementary; Lewisville Elementary School; Oak
Summit Elementary; Rural Hall; Sedge Garden; South Fork;
Union Cross; Vienna; Walkertown Elementary; and Waughtown
Elementary. 1 have, you will note, in the closing of Carver
Elementary School, I have taken 200 students and assigned
them to the Oak Summit Elementary School, so they are
included in those figures in Table 3.
Q Your Tables 1, 2 and 3 appearing on pages 3, A- and
5 indicate these three sets of schools?
A Yes, they are there for reference purposes.
Q And the race of the students, etcetera?
A The ratio of black to white, and the size of the
site, and maximum capacity, and so forth.
Q Now, would you tell us what you propose doing
with these schools in order to accomplish further desegre
gation?
A Yes. This plan involves basically— in order to
accomplish pupil desegregation, the plan basically involves
a combination of the seven present black inner city black
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schools with their attendance areas and combinations with
the thirteen outer rim schools.
Q Let’s describe that. Beginning on page seven of
your proposal, you have indicated this grouping of outer
city - outer rim rather - and inner city schools. Would you
start with the first group and show the Court the schools
you are talking about pairing?
A Yes, sir. As a former teacher of English for
former years, I don’t think we can use "pairing’’ when we’re
speaking of more than two, but if I use "pairing" in that
regard, I am using a grammatical license. Group 1, I have
taken the Mebane Elementary School in the inner city core
and have combined it with the Waughtown Elementary School
in the outer rim and the Union Cross Elementary School in
the outer rim. The reason for using the two outer rim
schools in combination with the inner city school is to
achieve a racial composition within the desegregation range.
THE COURT: You combined Mebane with what?
THE WITNESS: Waughtown and Union Cross.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: On page seven there, Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Did you determine approximately
how far it was, as the crow flies or whatever, from Mebane
to Waughtown?
A Excuse me a second while I look at my notes. The
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mileage figures I will give you, Mr. Chambers, are not as
the crow flies figures but figures from driving from school
to school, measuring mileage in that fashion.
Q Approximately how far is it from Mebane to
Waughtown Elementary School?
A I figured a little more than two miles.
Q How far is it from Mebane to Union Cross Elementary
School?
A Mebane to Union Cross I figured six miles.
Q All right. Now, what schools are you grouping in
the second group?
A May I possibly make one comment about this?
Q Yes.
A Your Honor will notice in the report that the
approach here is to keep the outer rim schools - Union Cross
presently is being attended by all students in the Union
Cross attendance area in grades 1 through 6. My proposal
would mean that all students in grades 1 through A in the
Union Cross - present Union Cross attendance area - will
continue to attend Union Cross. At grades 5 to 6, then
they will go to the present Mebane School. This will be
also true of the Waughtown Elementary School - it will be
grades 1 through 4. Mebane will become a 5 to 6 school
serving these three.
Q Would the students in grades 1 through 4 in the
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Mebane district be assigned—
A This is quite true. Students in grades 1 through
A presently in the Mebane attendance area will be assigned
to Union Cross and to Waughtown by numbers to reach the
capacity of those schools. This essentially becomes one
school, grades 1 through 6.
Q Let's go then to Group 2.
A Group 2, I selected the Skyland Elementary School
from the inner city and combined it with the Sedge Garden
Elementary School in the outer rim and the Kemersville
Elementary School. Here I selected, because of a large
enrollment at Kernersville Elementary, I divided the
district by population and I selected for this from here
part of the population for this grouping and part of the
population for another grouping.
q Again, the Sedge Garden - it would serve grades
1 through A and the Skyland district would serve grades 5
through 6?
A That’s correct. If you notice on the report,
Sedge Garden Elementary School would be 2A percent Negro;
Kernersville 23 percent; and Skyland 25 percent.
Q Did you determine the approximate distance
between Skyland and Kernersville?
A Again by driving, I measured Skyland to Kerners
ville approximately eleven miles. Skyland to Sedge Garden is
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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eight and a half.
Q Would you tell us the schools in Group 3?
A Yes, sir. Group 3, I combined the Fairview
Elementary School from the inner city with the Walkertown
Elementary School in the outer rim, and the other half of
the Kernersville Elementary School attendance area. This
would have to be determined by residence of students.
Q Again would the Walkertown-Kemersville Elementary
serve grades 1 through 4, and the Fairview Elementary School
would serve grades 5 and 6?
A That's correct.
Q , Did you determine the distance between Fairview
and Walkertown?
A I measured six miles from Fairview to Walkertown,
approximately eleven from Fairview to Kernersville.
Q Would you give us the schools in Group 4?
A In Group 4, I used the Carver Crest Elementary
School in the inner city, and moving north, combined that
with the Oak Summit Elementary School and the Rural Hall
Elementary School.
Q Which grades would Rural Hall and Oak Summit
serve?
A Each would serve grades 1 through 4.
Q And which grades would Carver Crest serve?
A Five and six for the three schools.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q What distance did you determine was it between
Carver Crest and Rural Hall?
A Eleven miles.
Q And what distance is it between Carver Crest and
Oak Summit?
A Six.
Q Would you tell us the schools in Group 5?
A In Group 5, I utilized the North Elementary School
from the inner city and combined it with the Bolton Elementar
School in the outer rim and the South Fork Elementary School.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Bolton?
Which grades would South Fork and Bolton serve?
Grades 1 through 4.
Which grades would North Elementary serve?
Five through six.
Did you determine the distance between North and
A By car I determined it as five miles from North
to Bolton.
Q What distance did you determine between North and
South Fork?
A Nine miles.
Q What schools did you place in Group 6?
A In Group 6, I selected Brown Elementary School
in the inner city and I combined it with Clemmons in the
outer rim and Griffith in the outer rim.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q What grades would Griffith and Clemmons serve?
A Griffith and Clemmons would serve both grades 1
through 4 for that respective attendance area.
Q What grades would Brown serve?
A Grades 5 to 6 for all three.
Q What distance did you determine it was between
Brown and Clemmons?
A By car again, seven miles to Griffith; seventeen
miles to Clemmons from Brown.
Q What schools did you include in Group 7?
A For Group 7 I picked 14th Street Elementary School
and combined it - the two schools in the outer rim, the
Lewisville School and the Vienna School.
0 What grades would Lewisville and Vienna serve?
A One to four.
Q What grades would the 14th Street serve?
A Five and six.
Q Did you determine the distance between those?
A Yes, sir, it’s approximately thirteen miles from
14th Street to Lewisville, and Just about the same to Vienna.
G What schools did you put in Group 8?
A In Group 8, two schools contiguous with attendance
areas - the attendance areas are contiguous to each other -
Konnoak and Easton. I have suggested pairing those, one with
one, and would suggest that it could be done either by pupil
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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assignment so that each one is 1 to 6 and pupil assignment
is made combining both attendance areas into one and main
taining a racial composition within the range. Or it could
be done by what I call Princeton planning, where one of the
schools would have grades 1 through 3 and the other grades
4 through 6. Either way that these two schools are com
bined, the black-white composition is such that they would
be desegregated schools.
Q How far are those schools apart?
A I'm sorry; I don't think I measured that by car.
They measure about a mile and a half or a little less
between the two schools on the map.
Q Are those schools in Group 1 through 8, did you
determine what the average distance it would be for students
to travel?
A In Groups 1 through 7, yes. I Just arrived at a
transportation average or a distance average. Here again,
these are odometer readings, and it comes out to nine miles
average to students.
Q Did you determine approximately how many students,
additional students, that would need transportation?
A Yes, and I tried to spell it out on Table 5, page
14. Groups 1 through 7, using the present attendance figures
in these schools from the Board's data, and establishing for
each school the approximate population, grades 1 through 4
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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and. grades 5 through 6, I established a grades 1 through 4
population simply by taking two-thirds of 1 through 6 popu
lation - not having with me the precise number of students
in each grade level. The computation then came to 6,025
students from all seven groups.
Q Are some of these students already being trans
ported?
A I would assume so. I could not say without having
more data at my command.
Q How do you propose to desegregate the students in
the middle rim schools?
A One of the reasons for combining the inner city
with the outer rim is to keep as many - what I might term -
walk-in schools in the district as we can, at the same time
achieving our first objective. So in the middle rim group
ings, I tried to put together schools where a pupil assign
ment plan based upon pupil locater maps identifying where
students live, the groupings could be worked out in such a
way that each of the schools in the grouping could be dese
gregated and be grades 1 through 6 schools. For instance,
in Group A, I included Petree, Mineral Springs, and Ibraham,
and of course the students in the Carver area, this comes
to 1,900 students, 23 percent of them being Negro, and
covers this approximate attendance area. The Negro students
by and large live within the present Carver attendance area,
-------j----------— — — -------------------------------------
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
D unM F
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I assume, because this is where they’ve been attending
school, with the exception of some 49 to 50 presently in
the Petree district. And in Group B, the south part of the
rim, I put together the Diggs School which is approximately
in a geographic center of that group, Diggs with the Latham
School, Forest Park, South Park - Forest Park, Latham, and
Ardmore.
Q Is Diggs also included?
A And Diggs, yes, sir. This total population in
percentages comes to 22 percent black, and the distances
from one end of the district - not from school to school but
from one end of the district to the other is about three
and a half miles, east to west.
Q What about Group C?
A Group C, I incorporated Kimberly Park, Lowrance,
Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker and Moore, and I might go
on and suggest, Mr. Chambers, that I kept Brunson - the
present school attendance area of Brunson intact. By doing
that, I separated geographically by another attendance area
the Kimberly Park and Lowrance Schools from Speas, Sherwood
Forest and Moore. I thought it was important to keep the
Brunson School intact as an attendance area. So I have
suggested using this Group C not by pupil assignment plan
as such, but in the same fashion that I paired the inner
city with the outer rim. If you will look— I'm sorry about
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N. C .
P H O NE : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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this, but I had to Include this in the appendix; it's the
last two pages, Your Honor.
MR. WOMBLE: This was not set down earlier, is
that right?
THE WITNESS: No, sir. As you said yesterday, I
had a press of time.
A Obviously a choice could be made either using
them as a grouping, as I first suggested, or the one that
1 suggested in the appendix.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) The one suggested in the
appendix indicated as Group C-l would be sort of a combina
tion or clustering, as you indicated for the earlier grouping
A That's right. It would combine Lowrance, Sherwood
Forest and Speas Elementary Schools with Lowrance serving
grades 5 and 6, Speas and Sherwood Forest respectively
serving grades 1 through 4. In Group C-2, doing the same
approach with Kimberly Park, Whitaker, Moore - Kimberly
Park serving grades 5 and 6, Whitaker and Moore serving
grades 1 through 4 each.
Q Now, what proposal have you made for the secondary
schools?
A The big job, as Mr. Ward and his staff are well
aware of, in pupil assignment is always with elementary
schools. Having done that, establishing attendance areas
for each elementary school, or each group of elementary
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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schools, then you wrap these inside a junior high attendance
area - you wrap the junior high attendance areas for senior
high attendance areas. So I have suggested a geographical
system combined with a feeder system, and I detailed this
in great fashion on Table 7, beginning on page 19.
Q Dr. Larsen, as an example, you show Group 1 -
Group No. 1 going to Glenn Junior High School, and then to
East Senior High School?
A That’s right.
G This Group 1 would be the Group 1 taken from your
Group 1 appearing on page 7?
A Yes, the inner city-outer rim grouping would
include Mebane, Union Cross, Waughtown.
Q And your Group 3, whicn is shown going from
Walkertown Junior High School to East would be your group 3
appearing on pages 8 and 9?
A That's correct, including Walkertown Elementary,
Kernersville, and it would feed Walkertown Junior High—
Q The same would be true for the other feeder
proposals appearing on pages 19 and 20 and 21?
A Yes, sir.
Q You might take your seat a moment. I show you a
copy of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 71 and ask you if you can
identify that.
A Yes, sir.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6 ______
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Q Would you tell the Court what that is?
A I worked this up yesterday, and in use on this -
and I apologize for not putting footnotes on it identifying
the origin of the definitions. When"segregated schools"
is used on here, I mean segregated schools according to
my definition in my plan - less than 10 percent of the
minority race. "Desegregated schools" being within ten
percentage points of the appropriate grade level in the
district as a whole. Establishing those definitions then,
I merely went through the enrollment figures for elementary,
junior high and senior high in the district as presently
constituted, '69 and *70, as listed in the borrowed plan
for 1970-71, and as listed in the short-range for 1970-71,
and as listed in the short-range McGuffey plan. And this
exhibit - I merely computed the averages - I mean percentages,
I'm sorry. And His Honor said a little while ago mathematics
with me is not an exact science either.
Q Those were the percentages of blacks and whites
that would be integrated in desegregated schools according
to your definition?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: I tender Plaintiffs' Exhibit 71.
THE COURT: State your objections, if any,
gentlemen.
MR. V/OMBLE: M e object.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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MR. MITCHELL: We object.
MR. LIGON: We object.
THE COURT: Let the record show that Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 71 is received into evidence, and that counsel
for the defendants, on behalf of the defendants and
each of them, object and the objection is overruled.
(The document above referred to,
heretofore marked Plaintiffs' Exhi
bit No. 71 for identification, was received in evidence.)
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I have one final
exhibit I'd like to identify. This is a computation
that I made on the principal's monthly bus report,
identified as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 66, which shows the
average round trip distance and the average time for
the buses now operating in each school in the system.
We'd like to identify as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 75.
(The document above referred to was marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 75 for identification.)
MR. CHAMBERS: I have no further questions of Dr.
Larsen.
THE COURT: What says counsel with reference to
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 75?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I think that we'd have
to take a little time and examine it. It looks
realistic; of course I haven't seen it until now.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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THE COURT: I will withhold the admission - a
ruling on it - until you all have had an opportunity
to study it. All right, Mr. Womble, any questions?
I believe you said you were through, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
MR. WOMBLE: We will need to cross examine Dr.
Larsen; it will take quite a while.
THE COURT: I thought we would go on here about
ten minutes and then I could hear that, and then we
could be back by two. Can you carry on for about ten
minutes here, and we'll save that much time. If not,
we don't have to do that.
MR. WOMBLE: I think it would be better if I Just
started after lunch.
THE COURT: All right. Come down then, Dr.
Larsen. Let's recess until 1:45.
(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned to reconvene
at 1:45 p.m.)
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, will you come back to the
stand, please, sir?
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, as I recall when you
were here before, you testified that the approach you used
at that time would accomplish a unitary system?
A I think I testified that it would approach the
accomplishment of a unitary system in the time that I had
available to work on it.
Q At that time you also testified that considering
the size of Forsyth County, which is roughly twenty-four
or twenty-five miles from east to west, and in places as
much as twenty miles from north to south, and the residential
patterns of the residents of this county, that it would not
be practicable to transport pupils the distances they would
be required in order to mix the races in all schools. Do
you recall that?
A No, sir, I don't recall my exact words on that.
Q You don't deny, do you, that you testified to
that?
A I remember talking about that area, but I don't
precisely remember.
Q You don't deny that you did say that when you were
here before?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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A I neither confirm or deny it. I don't recall the
context.
G You don't recall whether you said it or not?
A No, sir.
Q Also when you were here before, the net result of
your approach insofar as the elementary schools are con
cerned, would make no change in the enrollment at Bolton,
Clemmons, Easton, 14th Street, Griffith School, Kernersville,
Latham, Lewisville, North Elementary, Old Richmond, Old
Town, Rural Hall, South Fork, Union Cross, Vienna or Walker-
town. Do you recall that?
A Do you have my previous report in front of you?
Is that what you're referring to?
Q I was referring to some notes that I made at the
last—
A May I refer to some notes that I have? Yes, I
have the notes in front of me that I referred to, I think,
in the context. Now, your question was that list of schools?
That's right, that those I just read were schools
whose pupil population would not be affected by the approach
that you testified to at that time.
A Yes. This did leave those schools— this was the
beginning of a plan that I think was an approach. I charac
terized it that I did an incomplete job of pupil desegrega
tion.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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Q Now, you have specialized in the last two or
three years in school planning, haven't you?
A I am specialized in school administration.
Q What's that?
A My speciality is school administration, of which
organization planning is part of it.
Q And your principal specialty has been desegrega
tion?
A I have been involved in some desegregation cases,
yes.
Q And since the hearing earlier this year, you have
accepted an assignment to come up with the best plan that
you could devise to achieve as nearly as possible a propor
tional integration of blacks and whites in all of the
schools in Forsyth County, haven't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that is really what you are charged with
doing?
A Yes, that's right. I think that was my testimony.
Q And the second and third objectives listed in
your proposal - strike. A second objective listed in your
proposal, "Quality education will be maintained and increased
as the district moves towards integrated education", is an
objective that - according to your view - simply flows from
achieving proportional integration in all the schools, isn't
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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it?
^ I think that is a fair statement, Mr. Womble. I
think that desegregating the schools certainly will not
have the opposite effect. I think that quality education
can he maintained, yes, sir. I think they are inextricably
bound to each other.
Q So what you say is that if you achieve integration,
then the quality education pant just results from that?
A I said that the quality of education will be
maintained.
Q And you said increased?
A And increased. This is quite true. As a result
of desegregated schools, the quality of education.
Q Now, part of that, according to your view, is that
in every school you wind up with a majority white and a
minority black?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it would not be consistent with your view
that the educational program is benefited if you simply
put a minority of whites deliberately into a school with a
majority of blacks?
A I didn't get the first part of your question, Mr.
Womble - I'm sorry. I got the end but I didn't get the first
part.
Q Under your philosophy, the objective of maintaining
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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quality education would not be achieved if you made changes
deliberately fo»' the puroose of mixing races, and in that
— 00 school;- i«r;t minority white and majority
black?
A I believe that in Winston-Salem, the logical way
to do it would be to reflect the student composition of the
district, which would be majority white and minority black,
and I believe in our culture this is perhaps the best way
to do it, and I think that we are fortunate to be able to do
it in Winston-Salem or Forsyth County.
Can you just answer that question?
A In Winston-Salem the proper desegregation policy
would be majority white and minority black, and in that
context I’d agree with that.
G Does your philosophy of quality education depend
upon whether you are in Winston-Salem or in Rhode Island?
A No, my philosophy does not depend on that.
Q I asked you about your philosophy.
A My philosophy of education is to say that for
quality education, the indications are that with a racial
composition in each school is best if the majority of the
school population be white. I believe I said in the last
day, Mr. Womble, in Winston-Salem, this would be the case
because of majority school desegregation.
Now, one of your objectives you say was to have a
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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a minimum amount of transportation?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, with respect to your definitions, am
I correct in understanding that your definitions are solely
for the purpose of defining what you have done in your
proposal, and you do not suggest that your definitions are
legal definitions?
A No, sir. I'm not a lawyer; I can't suggest that.
Q So you do not claim that your definition of a
desegregated school is a legal definition of a desegregated
school?
A I certainly do not; I cannot.
Q Or that your definition of a segregated school
is a legal definition of a segregated school?
A No, sir.
Q Or that your definition of a racially mixed school
is a legal definition of a racially mixed school?
A No, sir. I think the very fact—
Q As a matter of fact, if you simply use the words
"racially mixed", according to their definition in the
dictionary, any school that had any child of another race
would be a racially mixed school, wouldn't it?
A Yes. This is precisely why I did define the
term, so I would know what I was talking about.
Q Dr. Larsen, I would like in order to have a little
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P H O N E 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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better understanding of what you proposed to take the liberty
of folding this back, or taking it off, and I have another
one over here, and I will let you mark on it for us if you
will. Now, your proposal as to the inner-outer rim approach
would involve the transportation of pupils, or at least the
gathering of pupils for transportation or otherwise, at a
particular school, and then being transported in a group
from the school to another school?
A Yes, express buses.
Q Now, again with reference to terminology, your
"inner rim" and "outer rim" terms are just terms that you
just picked up for convenience in connection with your plan,
aren't they?
A For identification purposes, yes. The "inner"
are city schools and the "outer" are county schools.
0 Would you please, with reference to Group 1, draw
a line from Waughtown to Mebane?
A I had a map with all the lines drawn, Mr. Womble,
and the routes drawn. If I may refer to that, I could put
them right on here.
Q Well, let me see the map that you have.
A I used one of these. If I could illustrate on
here— shows the inner city schools.
Q Well, using this as a guide, can you put it on
here?
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A Yes. It would be a little laborious.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, may I make one inquiry
of the purpose of just drawing a line from a school
to a school? I seriously question the relevancy of
the information.
MR. WOMBLE: I can't think of a better way of
showing exactly what we're talking about. As a matter
of fact, on the overlay that Dr. Larsen had, I think
he had some lines on it that he erased before he made
it an exhibit.
THE COURT: All right. Let's get on; overruled.
With all this preparation, I hate to give up finding
out what it's going to show.
Q (By Mr. Womble) The line from Mebane to Waugh-
town.
A From Mebane, I would go down Stadium—
Q You can draw a straight line.
A I can illustrate that on the other map.
Q Now, from Mebane to the other one in that group,
it's Union Cross. All right. I expect - to show the
location of each school, just put a circle around each
school there. The next one would be from Sedge Garden to
Skyland; that's your Group 2, isn't it?
A Yes, sir. May I refer to my notes here?
Q Sure.
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A You want them to run just across here?
Q Just as close as you can the routes you would
follow. And then from Kemersville to Skyland.
A All right.
Q Does that complete Group 2?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, the next group is Group. 3.
Maybe you could put a ”1" here to show the ones for that
group, the first group, between those two schools. And then
a "2" between the second two. And then your third one,
your Group 3, is from Walkertown to Fairview, and from
Kernersville to Fairview. Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, that would be Group 3, would it?
A That was the Fairview group, yes, sir.
Q Now, Group 4.
A What was the number of that?
A That’s number 4. And then number 5, Bolton and
South Fork. And then also the other school tied into North.
And Group 6, Griffith tied in with Clemmons and Brown, or
Brown tied in with Griffith and Clemmons.
A Yes.
Q And then Group 7. Now, that's Group 7. And
Group 8, I believe, was Konnoak and Easton. Now, Dr. Larsen,
under your plan you would have the children, for example,
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who live in the Carver Crest area gather at Carver Crest,
wouldn’t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Let’s use that as an illustration.
A Yes, sir.
Q They would gather at Carver Crest, and the fifth
and sixth graders would stay there—
A That's correct.
Q And that would be the fifth and sixth grade, would
be about 159 children, who would be within would you say
a half a mile of the school in the fifth and sixth grade?
They v/ould walk to school and would go there to school
during the day?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then they would walk to their homes, and
none of them had more than a half a mile to walk?
A They would get home and back the same way they do
now.
Q And it would be no more than half a mile for any
of them, would it?
A No.
Q Under your plan, 200 first graders, second graders,
third graders, and fourth graders, after reaching school
would be taken by bus eleven miles to Rural Hall?
A Yes, sir.
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A And another 118 first to fourth graders who live
in the Carver Crest district right around the Carver Crest
School would be taken by bus six miles to Oak Summit School?
A Yes, sir.
Q And this would be every day, five days a week,
181 days a year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, for the children who live in the Rural Hall
Elementary district, they live in a large district compared
to the Carver Crest district, don't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q And some of the children in the Rural Hall dis
trict live about four miles or more from the school, don't
they?
A Yes, sir.
Q From the Rural Hall School?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you understand that at the present time, there
is school bus transportation that goes throughout the Rural
Hall district to get the children into the Rural Hall School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, with school starting at 8:30, some of those
children probably have to be picked up by 7:20 or 7:30 now
to get to school, don't they?
A I believe that's near the times that we talked
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about yesterday.
Q So under your plan, these children would be picked
up by the school bus - we’ll say - at 7:20 or 7:30, and
between that time and somewhere close to 8:20 and close to
8:30, they would reach Rural Hall Elementary School,
wouldn't they?
A It could be possible. Those are the extremes,
yes, sir.
Q And under your plan, the fifth and sixth graders
and seventh graders
at Rural Hall, after they got to school, would take an
eleven-mile bus trip to Carver Crest to start the school
day?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, over in the Oak Summit area, the situation
is somewhat the same as it is in the Rural Hall area, isn't
it?
A Yes, sir, except Oak Summit is closer from school
to school.
Q But some of the distances that the children in the
Oak Summit area have to go to get to Oak Summit are greater
than the distances that the Rural Hall children have to go
to get to Rural Hall, isn't it?
A Could be.
Q So after the children are brought to Oak Summit to
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school, some 306 according to your plan would have to be
taken by bus approximately six miles to Carver Crest to
start tlieir school day?
A Yes, sir.
0 Now, are you aware of the fact that at the
present time that they use high school students as bus
drivers?
A Yes. I believe I suggested - it's not in my plan
but in one of my notes, I would suggest strongly tnat the
drivers of these express buses be adults.
Q So you would propose that special buses be bought
and that special adult drivers be employed to drive these
buses?
A I would suggest this. I would suggest that the
entire routing and pickup be subject to consideration by
the director of transportation and his office for the
school administration. It may be conceivable, Mr. Womble,
that pickup for some of the Rural Hall children - there
could be other places in the Rural Hall School - I could not
testify to that. I don’t have a pupil locater map; I don’t
know where all the youngsters live throughout the county.
So I do suggest express busing from school to school.
Q Now, would you please explain - and let’s just use
the Carver Crest-Rural Hall combination as an illustration.
A You can use Oak Summit, too.
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Q For the moment, let's just use these two.
A Yes, sir.
Q Explain - not in general terms but in specific
terms - and in terms of time—
A Yes, sir.
Q What your plan would involve from the standpoint
of pickup and transportation and school starting time for
the children in the Rural Hall area and the children in the
Carver Crest area.
A I would suggest a later starting hour in the
inner city school than in the outer county school, and
staggering enter times; it's a common practice.
Q Use specific times so it'll be clear exactly what
you’re talking about.
A Your example, Mr. Womble, I think was 8:30 starting
time. The starting time at Rural Hall, if that was 8:30,
the starting time at Carver Crest could be moved up another
twenty-five minutes to compensate for the boys and girls
coming in.
Q So you would start Carver Crest at what time?
A Well, about five minutes to nine. Stagger the
opening and dismissal hours.
Go ahead. Give me the whole picture as to how you
would run this.
A I would work out through the director of transporta--
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tion's office the most convenient way of bringing those
youngsters in, and I would adjust the starting times of the
inner city and outer county schools to correspond to that.
Q Let's be specific. If you were planning to
start school at Carver Crest at 9:00 o'clock—
A Yes.
Q That is going to be a school for fifth and sixth
graders?
A
Q
Yes, sir.
Under your plan, you would have the school buses
that pick up the children in the Rural Hall district pick
them up at the times they now pick them up, between 7:30
and 8:30 and get them to Rural Hall by 8:30, is that right?
A I'm Just elaborating the example you gave. This
could be possible.
Q Is this the kind of thing you're talking about?
A Yes, sir.
MR. CHAMBERS: I move that the witness be allowed
to finish his answer.
A
THE COURT: Yes. Go ahead, Dr. Larsen.
May I step down? Here we have, as you've illus-
trated, Mr. Y/omble, a different situation from what we have
there. At the Carver Crest small geographical area, the
youngsters can walk to school. Here the youngsters have to
be brought somehow to the express bus. Some of them will
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live around here and a great many of them will live in the
far corners of the attendance area. And there are several
choices that can be made. Number one, I would suggest that
we stagger the starting time at each of these schools, in
the outer county school, to compensate for that. I would
suggest also through the transportation office that where
the youngsters live, that it may be better for these youngs
ters, without changing the attendance lines; it may be
better for these youngsters living in this area to be taken
to the Oak Summit School and busing from there, but there
would still be an express bus. So you have the two things
going. You have them both based on a careful analysis in
the office of transportation, which they are constantly doing
anyway. Staggering time schedules and an analysis to deter
mine which school is most convenient for the youngsters to
be picked up to be brought into the school.
Q Now are you through with your answer?
A Yes, sir.
Q To come back to what I was talking about, you
understand that a student driver, as you have already
indicated you do, brings the children to the Rural Hall
School?
A I said an adult driver, I would suggest that the
express buses— I made no comment on the local attendance
area buses.
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Q All right. And then that driver, being a high
school student, must be going to school, which in this
instance would be to North High School?
A Yes. He does this now, of course.
0 That’s right. So you would have a driver specially
employed who would be at Rural Hall School with a special
bus at 8:30 to drive these children to Carver Crest?
A Yes, sir.
Q And school there would start at 9:00 o'clock?
A Depending on the analysis of times and distances,
yes. Starting at the time he could get there.
Q You wouldn't have schools starting at Just various
times all over the county, would you?
A They'd start at 9:00, the others start at 8:00;
there would be a span of difference between starting times.
Q So under your plan then, as I understand it, the
first to fourth graders in the Carver Crest area would have
to talk to school as they now do and arrive there at what
time?
A A little before 8:00, I would assume. We'll allow
a half hour to come down.
Q So you at that point would then have an adult
driver and a special bus or buses - you understand that
your normal bus capacity is fifty to sixty per bus, don't
you?
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A Yes, sir.
And so there would be four buses with four adult
drivers to take these children from Carver Crest up to Rural
Hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q And for the 300 children at Rural Hall, it would
take about six buses coming from the other way with the
fifth and sixth graders?
A Yes.
a Now, you would also have two buses at Carver
Crest about 8:00 o'clock in the morning to take first to
fourth graders up to Oak Summit?
A Yes, sir.
G And they would have adult drivers for those buses?
A I would suggest that, yes.
Q Now, where would these buses stay during the day
time under your plan?
A I would suggest they stay at the outer rim schools.
I would— during the daytime?
Q Yes, during the daytime.
A I'm sorry. At the last stop.
Where would that be? Would that be out at Rural
Hall? Would you have six buses at Rural Hall and four at
Carver Crest for that group, or how would you work this out?
A It could be, sir. I would not like to see them
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after they have unloaded their last load to go back out to
another place - assuming they would stay where they stopped,
or very close to that.
u 3o under your plan, there would be a group of
buses that would take children from Rural Hall to Carver
Crest and wait there until the end of the school day and
then take them back to Rural Hall after school, is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And there would be a group of buses that would
take children from Carver Crest in the morning to Rural Hall
and wait for them and then take them back in the afternoon?
A I would say so.
Q And what do you do with your adult drivers during
the day? They have to go find those buses and they are
employed for maybe an hour in the morning and then they have
to go back, and then they are employed for another hour in
the afternoon?
A There's a little more employment time than that,
Mr. Womble. They have to keep the buses in repair and all
this sort of thing. I would suggest, from an experience I
had in Illinois when I was there, we employed adult drivers
and we tried to combine bus driving with a custodial posi
tion of some kind, and many times we were successful in
that kind of combination. There are some possibilities
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anyway that I suggest we explore, and there were some
drivers that preferred that - part-time to full-time.
Q Did you find that it was difficult to find some
body who might be willing to work for an hour or two in the
morning and then come back to a distant location to get a
bus to work for an hour or two in the afternoon?
A We found that that was not impossible.
Q But it is difficult, isn’t it?
A It is difficult, yes. We preferred some that
preferred to do that way.
Q But few?
A Few. Those we couldn’t use that way, we used in
other capacities in the school.
Q And it's expensive to do it that way, isn’t it?
A Yes, sir. I’m sorry - what did you mean by
saying "that way"?
Q When you employ a person on that basis, you have
to pay them for the time it takes them to get to where they
are going to drive the bus as well as their persona] trans
portation?
A I would assume so.
Q And then when they're off, you have to pay them for
the time and expense of getting back to their home?
A Or occupy them during that time.
Q Now, under this plan, you are taking the smallest
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children ana requiring them to be transported the greatest
distances, aren't you?
A Yes, sir. To transport them.
Q You're taking the smallest black children and
requiring them to be transported the greatest distances as
compared with the white children?
A Yes, I see your point, yes. The black children
will travel for four years where the white children will
travel for two years.
Q And when the white children are doing the long
distance traveling under your plan, they are fifth and
sixth graders?
A Yes, this is true.
Q Whereas the distance traveled for the black
children is when they are 6, 7, 8, 9 years old?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did anybody tell you that one of the strongest
and most justified complaints under the old dual system
operated by the county was the distances that small black
children were required to be transported?
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to that.
THE COURT: I guess what somebody told him would
not be proper, Mr. Womble. Sustained.
MR. CHAMBERS: There was also a characterization
by counsel of what he considered to be justified or
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unjustified. We're not doubting there were discrimina
tory practices in the past. I think that question
can he phrased differently.
THE COURT: I sustained it.
G (By Mr. Womble) It's a hardship for a child of
that age to be transported that far to get an education?
A We talked about that in January at some length.
The transportation is not completely relevant if the educa
tion at the other end is good.
THE COURT: I didn't get what you said.
THE WITNESS: The transportation isn't relevant
if the education at the end of the route is a good
education. It would be nice if transportation were
not necessary.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Do you know what the length of
the school day is?
A Yes, sir.
0. What is it?
A You mean generally or in Winston-Salem?
Q In Winston-Salem.
A From arrival to leaving the school, they run
between five and six hours.
0 And the normal school day for the elementary
schools is from 8:30 to 2:30 in Winston-Salem and in Forsyth
County?
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A So I understand.
Q Now, under your plan, even with a nine o'clock
starting time, at Carver Crest the fourth graders - first
to fourth graders in the Carver Crest area would still have
to leave home about 8:15 in order to walk to Carver Crest
and be there in time to catch a bus at 8:30, wouldn't they?
A Yes, sir.
G Now, if you're going to start at Rural Hall at
8:30, they would have to leave home at about quarter of
eight instead of 8:15 in order to get to Carver Crest by
8:00 o'clock so that they could be transported to Rural Hall
to start school at 8:30?
A Yes, sir.
Q So they would have to leave home at least a half
hour earlier than they do now?
A Yes. Based on the figures you used, yes.
Q Based on any figures that you would use. The same
thing would be true if you're going to start here at 8:30?
A True.
Q They're in school then until 2:30, so that it
would be at least 3:00 o'clock by the time they got back to
Carver Crest, and at least - say - 3:15 by the time they get
home?
A Yes, sir.
Q So those children would have had at least an nour
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longer school day because you’ve got thirty minutes addi
tional travel each way—
A Yes, sir.
Q Than they would otherwise have.
A Yes, sir, than if they went to the school in their
block.
Q Now, the children in the Rural Hall area who are
being brought to school by bus because of the large district
in which Rural Hall is located would all have to be picked
up between 7:20— they’d have to get to school by 8:20,
which is what they now do?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the fifth and sixth graders who are going to
Carver Crest would get to Carver Crest right at nine o'clock
and would then be in school until three o’clock?
A Yes.
Q And would get back to Rural Hall about 3:30?
A Yes.
Q And it would be 3:40 to 4:30 when they would get
back home?
A That is on the basis of your example, yes.
Q That's realistic, isn't it?
A Using the schools— I tried to point out a few
moments ago that it may be possible through a careful analysi
that where the pupils live, that they could be let off before
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their arrival at school, or perhaps they could gather at the
Oak Summit School, if they live closer to that, you see.
Q That would be a few pupils?
A Yes.
Q But for the majority of them, they would still go
to Rural Hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q They would get there about 3:30; they would get
home roughly 4:20 to 4:30?
A Yes, and this would go on for two years.
Q So that where they get home now about 3:00 o'clock,
they would be getting home about 4:30?
A Yes.
MR. CHAMBERS: Object to that, Your Honor.
There's no foundation laid that they get home at 3:00
o'clock.
THE COURT: This is cross examination. Dr. Larsen
is an intelligent witness. Go ahead with your cross
examination.
Q (By Mr. Y/omble) You heard the testimony that
they do have buses provided now to take the children home
as soon as school is over at the elementary schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they get out at 2:30, and if it takes around,
say, fifty minutes or so to pick them all up in the morning,
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it would be reasonable to think it would take that long to
get them home in the afternoon?
A That's questionable. Is it a question or a state
ment, Mr. Womble?
Q Is that right?
A I would say so. If you retrace the same routes.
G So that now under your plan, their school day
would extend from the time they leave home at about - we'll
say 7:20 or 7:30, somewhere in that range, to 4:15, 4:30,
in that range?
A This is true, and it could be t- we're speaking of
extremes, of course; it could be. This is one of the
reasons, Mr. Womble, for doing it the way I did it and
making these outer rim schools— turning to the point, if
you would, these youngsters we're speaking of would be
fifth and sixth graders, so they do it for two years rather
than for four.
Q These are extremes, aren't they?
A You're speaking of the extremes in transportation,
Mr. Womble. You were establishing the people who live
around the Rural Hall School who take the longest to get
home. It's a perfectly logical statement, it would take
longer to get to the schools. But I submit again, I would
suggest that a careful analysis through the director of
transportation's office, it may not be necessary; but the
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extremes might take that long, but I don’t know.
Q It wouldn't be far off, would it?
A I don't think either of us know precisely, Mr.
Womble. Your examples taken relevantly, of course, are
accurate.
Now, Dr. Larsen, actually under your proposal if
your school for the fifth and sixth graders down here
started at 9:00 o'clock and was out at 3:00, it would be
3:30 before they got back to Rural Hall, wouldn't it?
A Let me make some notes on those figures. You
said the starting time, Mr. Womble?
Q The normal school day is 8:30 to 2:30. Under
your proposal, I believe you said that you expected to
start Carver Crest, which is an inner city school, say at
9:00 o'clock?
A Yes, you would have to adjust the time.
Q Now, if it started at 9:00 o'clock, the fifth
and sixth graders at Carver Crest would get out at 3:00
o'clock in the afternoon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it would be about 3:30 when they got back to
Rural Hall, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, in order to keep the buses in the Rural Hall
district from having to make two trips in the afternoon, the
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first to fourth graders who finished at Rural Hall at 2:30
would have to wait until 3:30 in order to get a ride home,
wouldn't they?
A This is based obviously on the assumption of
using the same buses.
Q Is it your proposal that you would have extra
buses to just get the children home in the afternoon in the
Rural Hall district?
A I would certainly explore that possibility, Mr.
Womble. If it's impossible, there would have to be— but
to assume that necessity to wait, I'm not equipped to assume
that.
Q Aren't you equipped to assume that it would take
extra buses just for that purpose?
A On that basis, yes.
Q Which would mean unless you got those extra buses,
those first to fourth graders from the Rural Hall district
would have a school day that would run them from about 7:15
to 7:30 until 4:15 or so in the afternoon, with an hour's
wait after school just waiting for transportation?
A Based upon that assumption. I submit again, it
would need a careful analysis of bus needs and bus routes,
transportation; a survey would have to be made.
MR. WOMBLE: I wonder if we could have this over
lay that we have been referring to identified?
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CLERK IDOL: That will be Defendants' Exhibit
No. 45.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 45
for identification.)
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, the illustration
that we have been using as to Carver Crest, Rural Hall, and
Oak Summit, is illustrative of the plan that you would have
throughout the inner city-outer rim area in order to
achieve the integration that you have proposed?
A Yes, sir.
Q And whereas the distance in the Carver Crest-
Rural Hall situation was eleven miles, I believe you com
puted the average distance for all of them to be nine miles,
is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Larsen, have you made any computations of the
cost of providing the transportation that would be required
with respect to the inner city-outer rim part of your
recommendation?
A No, sir, I have not made such computations.
Q Now, let's use this overlay that has now been put
over Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29 to illustrate the proposed
attendance areas under your plan for the middle rim schools.
The first grouping you had, I believe, is Prince Ibraham,
Mineral Springs and Petree. Is that right?
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A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you have understood that a line now has been
drawn for the Prince Ibraham and Petree districts by the
local School Board?
A Yes, I think that came out in the testimony
yesterday, did it not?
Q Now, the lines that Mr. Ward has Just put on this
overlay to indicate the Petree and Prince Ibraham areas,
while they did not appear on your map that you prepared,
actually I believe you did have some dotted lines that were
pretty much the same as these to indicate some boundaries
between those school districts, isn't that right?
A My dotted lines were estimates only, because I
do not know where the children live.
Q But they were approximately the same as these
lines?
A Somewhat similar, except I did draw a line between
Oak Summit and Mineral Springs, as I recall.
Q But that was to create another district?
A Yes.
Q I'm Just talking now about the Prince Ibraham and
the Petree.
A I made one district out of Petree, Prince Ibraham
and Mineral Springs, and that's the difference.
Q All right. Now, the boundaries of your Prince
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Ibraham and Petree portion of this group would be roughly
what is marked in by Mr. Y/ard here, wouldn't it?
A I did not draw a line between Prince Ibraham and
Petree; I drew a line incorporating Prince Ibraham, Petree
and Mineral Springs together, as one attendance area.
Q You didn't go up to Walkertown though?
A No. I drew the line coming up through the Petree
district, and cutting between Prince Ibraham and Walkertown,
and coming between Oak Summit and Mineral Springs, and
going over to the present line at the western part of Union
Springs.
G All right. If you would, with this bow line, show
how you had that district on your proposal.
A Could I look at that? And let's repeat, Mr.
Womble, I'm sure you understand - not knowing residence
locations— if you would just put that down there. I came
up Petree, I cut in - because I was using the road - and
I came back and I moved up north, and I came between the
Ibraham—
Q Do you want to put that on this other map? Just
see where it is and put it on the other overlay.
A I think that's about it, Mr. Womble.
Q Now, in your proposal, how would the— let's see,
could you just circle In blue the schools and then indicate
Petree? All right. Now, how would you assign pupils in
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this area to these three schools, and how would you handle
the transportation for them under your plan?
A Number one, I would assign them by residential
location to the school of the three nearest their home, and
at the same time using the other consideration of keeping a
racial composition in each of the three schools near the
23 percent black to 77 percent white. Now, beyond that I
cannot say, because I don't know where the students are
precisely living. It would be a pupil assignment plan
based upon pupil locater maps, and it could, as a matter of
fact, be programmed through computers. I would like to see
the three schools be one through six each. The black
students—
Q And insofar as Oak Summit is concerned, for
example, which is just north of Mineral Springs—
A That's right.
Q There would be no black children from the old
Carver area assigned, but all of the black children who
would go to Oak Summit would be coming from down at Carver
Crest?
A I'm using that in the outer rim.
Q Let's see about the other groups.
A Down below there?
Q Diggs, Latham, South Park, Ardmore. Let's use
the black marker around the Diggs, Latham, Forest Park,
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South Park and Ardmore areas. Now, in Group B, you have
outlined in black on this overlay the area comprising the
districts Diggs, Latham, Forest Park, South Park, and
Ardmore, and that would be your Group B, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you would propose to have a total enrollment
in those five schools of 2,831, of whom 647 - or 22 percent -
would be black, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, would you please explain how those children
would be assigned to those schools under your plan?
A By the same way that I used here, by pupil
assignment - this is a pupil assignment plan. They would
be assigned to school on the basis of where they lived and
on the basis of nearness to school, plus on the basis of
race with a range covering around 22 percent black in each
of the schools, and the distances from one end of this
grouping to the other are not severe.
Q What is it?
A A little over four miles from one extreme to the
other.
Q So it would be four miles from one end to the
other?
A Yes.
0 This is an area that’s completely in the city,
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isn’t it?
A Pretty much. There are some blank areas down in
the portion here.
Q It's all in the City of Winston-Salem, isn't it?
A Yes, I thought you meant the inner city.
Q And at the present time there are 609 black
students in the Diggs area, aren't there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that is a small area in the north central
part of the grouping, of your Group B?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, throughout the rest of that group, you have
only 38 black students?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, using your plan of assigning according to
race and proximity to school—
A Based on the residence - proximity from the
residence to school.
Q Please explain to me in detail how you would
assign 22 percent blacks into each of the schools in that
group.
A It could be done in a couple of ways. You could
program a computer to do it, if you wished. The distance
from Ardmore to the beginning of the Diggs area is two
miles. It would not be at all difficult to take a section
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of the Diggs area and assign by residence location those
students in the Diggs attendance area - those black students
in the Diggs attendance area - and assign them to Ardmore,
taking other sections - depending on residence location -
assigned to Latham, South Park and Forest Park. The
distances between the schools are all reasonable. That is
the reason I drew this the way I did.
Q At the present time all of the students who go
to Diggs live within a half mile of it, don’t they?
A I must assume they do.
Q Is that right?
A Yes, this is where the attendance line is drawn.
A little more than a half mile.
Q A little more than a half a mile being the
fartherest any of them would have to go?
A Yes.
G And if nobody lives in the area that looks like
an open space on the map, they all live within a half mile,
don't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q So under your plan then, you would take the blacks
from the Diggs area who live in the westernmost tip of that
area, you would take approximately 100 blacks who lived in
the westernmost area - or part of the Diggs area - and
assign them to Ardmore, wouldn't you?
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A It could be done that way.
Q Is that what you mean by proximity of residence
and school?
A Yes.
Q Isn't that exactly what you mean?
A It would be the logical thing to do.
Q Isn't that what you're proposing?
A Yes. You have some blacks here outside the Diggs
area, but as you said, that was around 30. So most of your
black children are in the Diggs area, so if you're going
to bring the schools up to within 22 percent or close to
22 percent black-r-
Q So you would take a hundred—
MR. CHAMBERS: I would request that the witness
be able to finish his answer.
MR. WOMBLE: Excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt.
THE COURT: Let me say this, Mr. Womble. I want
to stop at 3:30. It's obvious you can't conclude this.
When you get to a point where you can stop, we will
stop. Let him answer fully. All right; go ahead.
A Yes, sir. May I just say this, Mr. Womble? The
traveling two miles to a school, a little less than two
miles to a school, I don't look upon as a hardship if the
school to which the child is going is a desegregated school,
other than an all black school.
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Q Regardless of how close he lives to an elementary-
school?
A That is right.
Q And regardless of traffic congestion and condition^
of getting there to school?
A Yes. The answer is yes.
Q And regardless of the hazards that he may be
involved in in his traveling to school?
A Yes. We can always create the hazards.
Q I'm not talking about creating hazards; I’m
talking about hazards that exist. But to come back to this,
then there would be approximately 100 or so who live in
the western part of the Diggs area who under your plan
would go to Ardmore?
A It wouldn’t have to be quite 100, but it would be
close to that.
Q And they— about halfway on their way to Ardmore
they would go by Latham, wouldn't they?
A Yes. Yes, that would be a necessity in some
cases, that it would be necessary for a youngster to walk
by or to be taken by a school to get to another school.
This could happen, yes.
Q So in this instance the children assigned under
your plan to Ardmore would not only not go to the school
closest to their home, but they would go by another elementar
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school halfway on their way to the school to which they
would be assigned—
A And travel within a mile.
Q In other words, another mile beyond Latham to get
to Ardmore?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you aware of the fact that in order to do that,
you would not only have crossed U. S. Highway 52 - which is
Main Street - but you would also cross Peters Creek Parkway,
which runs north and south through the Latham district?
A Yes
Q Now, in order to make room for the 100 or so black
children from Diggs who are assigned to Ardmore, where would
you get the white students who would be sent into Diggs to
make the additional space at Ardmore?
A Mr. Womble, you do not take any youngster out of
a school to another school in this kind of pupil assignment
plan. You assign the youngster from the place of his
residence to a school. You can take all the youngsters,
figuratively speaking, out of the school in which they are
presently sitting today and you can put them all in their
houses, and on the basis of pupil locater maps - as I have
explained - you assign them to the school in which there is
the conditions I described. You do not take them out of
Diggs School or put them in Latham School, or take them out
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of the Ardmore School and put them in the Diggs School.
This is not a pairing arrangement, in other words.
Q Now, to accomplish what you’re talking about—
A Yes.
Q You would have to - regardless of whether you
call it taking them out or not - you would still have to
take out all but 100 children that go to the Diggs School
and send them somewhere else?
A That’s true. The black children live in that
small geographic attendance area, and a good many of them
will be assign^ elsewhere
Q All but about 100 or so?
A That's right.
Q So other children then who live in the attendance
area of Diggs, a little bit east of the ones you sent to
Ardmore, would be sent to Latham?
A Yes, could be.
Q And those in the southern part would go down to
South Park?
A Could be.
Q And since Diggs is on the eastern margin of its
own district, you would have to pull some children from west
of Diggs to send them east past Diggs to Forest Park,
wouldn't you?
A Yes, sir, and that's about a half a mile, is it
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not? From the western part, it's a little over a mile from
Diggs to Forest Park; it's about a mile.
Q About a mile?
A Yes.
Q So they walk - assuming that they walk - they
walk from west of Diggs by Diggs, and then another mile on
to Forest Park?
A It could happen that way.
Q Well, that’s the way it would work out under your
plan, isn’t it?
A Yes.
Q Now, in order to fill up Diggs with 78 percent
white children, you would then have to spread out in a
semi-circular pattern until you got approximately 500
children, wouldn't you?
A Yes, sir, between 400 and 500.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I’m going to have to
interrupt you here, in accordance with our conversation
this morning. All right; let’s adjourn court.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled
matter was adjourned.)
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(Pursuant to notice, the above-entitled case was
reconvened at 9:30 a.m. on April 30, 1970.)
P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Gentlemen, we set this matter for
today and tomorrow. At the time, it wasn't at all inclusive
that we would be here. I can't say for sure, but realizing
how things can happen, why, we went ahead and set it with
the idea that maybe it would work out so we could hold
court today and tomorrow. In Wilkesboro, one of the
attorneys became ill and it did work out, so we will have
today and tomorrow. Now, Monday starts a two-week criminal
term here, and that means that there will be further delay
if we cannot conclude this case during these two days, and
I still say I'm going to hear you out. But I hope we can
move along and maybe conclude it today and tomorrow. I do
not know what the extent of the additional evidence is,
but let's make a giant effort to see if we can't move this
matter along, because again, if we do not conclude it at
the conclusion of tomorrow, it's a matter of conjecture as
to when I can get back to it, but I will get back to it as
soon as I can. Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, Mr. Chambers and I have
discussed the time element, and I think we both agree that
we will probably be able to complete the evidence today.
THE COURT: Well, fine.
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you
MR. WOMBLE: I certainly hope so.
THE COURT: All right. Dr. Larsen, I believe
were on the stand at the conclusion of the testimony.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, before the opening of
court, we added to the overlay which has been identified as
Defendants' Exhibit 45 a matched line around the perimeter
of the county, or most of the perimeter of the county, so
that this overlay can be properly placed over Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 29 at a later date in case there is any need to do
that. And we have also put a title on it, "Overlay over
Plaintiffs * Exhibit 29 Showing Larsen Inner *
Outer Rim Elementary Schools," Just for identification, and
Dr. Larsen has agreed that that simply helps to identify
the overlay and the way to match it up with Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 29. That's correct, isn't it, Dr. Larsen?
DR. LARSEN: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WOMBLE: I would now like to have the overlay
which we were working on at the conclusion of the last
hearing identified as Defendants' Exhibit 46. This overlay
has also had a matched line around the county boundary for
most of the distance of the county boundary added to it,
simply for the purpose of making it possible to re-establish
the proper location over Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29. And it
has also had a title added in the lower righthand corner,
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"Overlay over Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29 showing Larsen Middle
Rim Elementary Schools." And I believe we agreed that that
is a fair title to put on this overlay, didn't we, Dr.
Larsen?
DR. LARSEN: Yes.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 46 for identification.)
WHEREUPON,
JACK L. LARSEN
having been duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified
further as follows:
CONTINUED CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, would you please
step here to the exhibit a minute, and we are looking at
Defendants' Exhibit 46, and in order to tie this in with
your middle rim group plan, would you please Just put the
letter "A" more or less in the center— Let's see. Your
Group A is Mineral Springs, Prince Ibraham, and Petree. If
you could Just put the letter "A" about in the middle of
that to show that group, and then your next group and the
one we were asking at the conclusion of the last hearing
was Group B, which is the area serving Diggs, Latham, Forest
Park and South Park and Ardmore, according to your plan.
If you will put a "B" to Identify that group. (The witness
marks map.) At the conclusion of the hearing the other dayT-
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MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I wonder if we could Just
let the reporter read the last page and a half—
THE COURT: It's already in the record.
MR. WOMBLE: If he could Just read it.
THE COURT: Read it aloud?
MR. CHAMBERS: Wouldn't it save time to let us
read it? We have a copy of it, and again, it’s already
in the transcript.
THE COURT: And I have read it. Mr. Erlacher ^
gave me a copy of it this morning, and I'm familiar
with it. Your purpose was to be sure that the train
of thought continues?
MR. WOMBLE: Have you read it, Dr. Larsen?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Just a few minutes ago.
MR. WOMBLE: So you are familiar with the conclu
sion of the testimony at the last hearing?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, would you please
explain to us - to the Court - how you would assign the
four or five hundred white children who would be assigned to
Diggs Elementary School under your Group B plan, under your
plan for the Group B schools?
A You said for Diggs, didn't you?
Q Yes.
A I believe I said in my testimony earlier, when we
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introduced the inner rim section of the plan, that pupil
assignment to each of the schools within the middle rim
groupings would be by means of pupil locater maps showing
residences of students, to be assigned to the school within
the group nearest their home, with proper regard taken to
the desegregation pattern of the middle rim as a whole.
Q How would you do that with reference to this
particular area?
A I would study a pupil locater map, or as we would
call, a pin map, showing pupil residences, and assign them
on that basis. I can't answer that more specifically. I
haven't studied the pupil locater map.
Q But you do know that at the present time, all of
the children in closest proximity to Diggs School are black
children?
A I would assvime that from the attendance area that
has been drawn, and that the school is all black.
Q You also of course understand that at Forest Park,
there are 647 white children and 20 black children?
A Yes, sir.
Q At Latham, there are 415 white children and 7 black
children?
A Yes, sir.
Q At Ardmore, which is west of Latham, there are
586 white children and 7 black children?
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Q And at Forest Park, which is east of Diggs, there
are 647 white children and 20 black children?
A Yes.
Q Now, using— applying your plan to Group B Schools,
as it relates to the assignment of children to Diggs, am I
correct in understanding that you would go only so far as is
necessary in an arc around Diggs to pick up four or five
hundred white children to send to Diggs? Is that the way
you would get the white children to send to Diggs?
A That would be one way of doing that, yes, sir.
Q Is that what your plan calls for?
A My plan calls for the use of a pupil locater map,
and I would assume—
A Yes, sir.
Q On the assignment on basis of what?
A Where they live.
Q Isn’t it proximity to the school that they are
sent to?
A Yes.
Q To achieve the integration that you are proposing?
A That's right.
Q So to get the white children that you send to
Diggs, please tell us if your plan contemplates going out
with such an arc as would be necessary, drawing a line with
Diggs as the geographic center, until your locater map
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picked up the four or five hundred white children that you
want to send to Diggs. Is that the way your plan contem
plates? Is that what you mean by your plan?
A In principle, Mr. Womble, yes. You can't have
Diggs as the center, of course, because its at the outer
rim of the boundary.
Q Would it not be the center of the arc which you
would draw out into the Qroup B. geographic attendance zone?
A The line might not look like an arc, but the
principle, yes.
Q And this would be true even if that line had to
extend as far out as Latham and South Park - yes, South
Park and Forest Park Schools, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which could mean that you would then be taking—
you would be assigning children who live in the same block
as Latham and sending them about a mile and a half or more
to Diggs?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it could mean that you would assign a child
who lives in the same block as South Park School and send
that child a mile or more to Diggs?
A It could happen.
Q And the same would be true for a child who lives
next door to Forest Park?
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Q And if you did that, depending upon what your
pin maps showed, it could mean that you would he even send
ing a child past Latham School to Diggs, or past South Park
to Diggs, or past Forest Park to Diggs, couldn't it?
A Right, as an example, yes, it could be.
Q And then under your plan, what method would you
use to assign white children to Ardmore School, which is
located approximately a mile west of Latham School?
A The same method as I outlined on Diggs. That
applies to each of the schools in the group.
Q Could you please be specific? In other words, if
you had taken white children from as far west as Latham
School in order to send them to Diggs School, would you then
take children from as far west as Ardmore School to fill up
Latham School?
A Yes, sir, that could happen; it could happen.
Q Do I understand correctly that under your middle
rim grouping plan, it would not be your intention to utilize
the express bus system that you proposed for the inner rim-
outer rim schools?
A That’s correct.
Q In other words, you would not expect under your
plan to have any children in the present Ardmore area go to
Ardmore School each morning and to be express bused from
A Yes, sir.
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Ardmore School to Diggs School?
A I would hope that that would not be necessary.
Q Your plan does not call for that?
A It does not call for that.
Q You also understand that under the present law
and bus transportation system in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County School System, there is no school bus transportation
provided for children who are attending school within the
1957 corporate limits of the city?
A This - I understand - was Mr. Ward’s testimony.
Q Except in a case of maybe handicapped or special
education, for the children that go to Central School -
maybe some kindergarten children that go to a special school.
But as far as the general plan is concerned, you understand
that, that at the present time none of the children attending
Forest Park, South Park, Diggs, Latham, or Ardmore are
provided transportation?
A By the Board of Education?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, it’s early, and you get a
little softer as the day goes on, and I know I am not
getting the complete answers.
THE WITNESS: It seems like we’re always talking
toward the map, Your Honor.
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Dr. Larsen, would you please
mark on Defendants' Exhibit 46 a line around the perimeter
of Group C under your plan, and circle each of the schools
in that geographic attendance zone as called for in your
plan. (The witness marks the map.) Now, Dr. Larsen, you
have outlined your Group C area, which includes the follow
ing elementary attendance areas of the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County School System: Lowrance, Kimberly Park,
Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker, and Moore. Is that
correct?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Where is Speas in relation to one of
the other schools? I don't see it on my map. Is it
south or north?
MR. WOMBLE: Speas is north and slightly east of
Sherwood Forest.
THE COURT: North and slightly east. Sherwood
is right here.
MR. WOMBLE: It's up here.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Womble) And you have put the letter »C"
in a couple places within that area to identify it as being
the Group C area, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q You have also put a circle on the overlay around
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the elementary schools as they show on Plaintiffs’ Exhibit
29 underneath the overlay?
A Yes, sir.
Q You have also by dash line indicated your Group D
for the middle rim, which consists only of Brunson School?
A Yes, sir, and the present Brunson attendance area.
Q And the dash line indicates the present Brunson
attendance area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under your plan, you make no change in the Brunson
attendance area which you identified as Group D?
A No, sir, I made no change.
Q Now, with respect to Grou$ C, there are two
schools - Lowrance and Kimberly Park - in the northeastern
part of your Group C, which are presently serving approxi
mately 1500 black students, with 778 black students and no
white students at Kimberly Park and 726 black students and
12 students at Lowrance?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the geographic attendance areas, existing
geographic attendance areas, for those two schools are
separated from the attendance areas for the other schools
in your Group C by the Brunson attendance area, which is
your Group D?
A It's quite true. I understand, however, from Mr.
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Ward's testimony that the upper part of the present Brunson
attendance area, the northern sector, there are almost no
students in it. The Brunson line could probably be drawn
lower so that the separation would not take place on the
map - it wouldn't make any difference.
Q But what I asked you is true?
A On the map, yes, sir.
Q At the present time, every child in the Kimberly
Park attendance area lives within a half a mile of Kimberly
Park School, doesn't he?
A Yes, sir. Yes, approximately.
Q Now, in the Lowrance area, the western half mile
of the Lowrance area, is the fairgrounds, ball park, coli
seum area, isn't it?
A I believe so.
Q In the eastern three-quarters of a mile of the
Lowrance area is the - the eastern half mile in some areas
and three-quarters of a mile of the Lowrance area - is part
of the Winston-Salem Airport property, isn't it?
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to object to this line of
questioning. We have gone into the boundary lines in
the system, and I certainly don't see any relevance
now in going back and talking about how far the school
boundary lines are from the school.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Chambers, we Just have here
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a clash of two concepts in this lawsuit. One concept
is the matter which Dr. Larsen is promoting, and the
other concept, the concept of the Board. And they are
trying to show that Dr. Larsen's concept brings on
difficulties.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I’m not arguing the
concept; I’m only arguing the repetition.
THE COURT: I don’t think in this particular area—
he has in other areas.
MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Ward has gone through it, Your
Honor. He went through it initially in the preliminary
hearing, and he went through it again when we heard it
on the merits, and he was talking about the distance
the boundary lines were from the schools.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q (By Mr. Womble) That’s correct, isn’t it, Dr.
Larsen?
A That was the fairgrounds, Mr. Womble, and the
airport?
Q The airport property.
A Yes. That would be the Lowrance area.
Q The northeastern part?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when you delete those uninhabited areas on
the east and west, the result is that all of the children
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who go to the Lowrance School live within a mile of that
school, isn't it?
A Just about, yes, sir.
Q Now, how far is it on a straight line from Lowrance
to Speas School?
A I would say between three and three and a quarter
miles.
Q How far is it on a straight line from Lowrance
School to Sherwood Forest Elementary School?
A Just a bit over four miles.
Q How far on a straight line from Lowrance to the
Whitaker School?
A About three miles.
How far on a straight line from Lowrance to MooreQ
School?
A
Q
Just a little less than four miles.
Now, would you please state how far it is on a
straight line from Kimberly Park to each of those schools,
that is, to Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker and Moore?
A Speas to Kimberly Park, approximately two and a
half miles - I mean from Kimberly Park to Sherwood Forest.
Q Yes.
A Approximately three miles. Kimberly Park to
Whitaker, about two miles. Kimberly Park to Moore, about—
a little over two miles, two and a half miles.
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O r n c i A L C o u n t R k k m t i m
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W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N. C -
PHONK: 768 0636
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Q And you are familiar with the fact that in order
to get from the Kimberly Park area to Whitaker, or any of
the schools to the west of Kimberly Park, you have to go
around the Children's Home property that comprises a large
tract of land west of the Kimberly Park area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that there are no streets through the
Children's Home property?
A On a direct line, no, sir.
Q Now, the longest distance from the western tip of
your Group C area to the easternmost part of the Lowrance
area, excluding the airport area where no people live, is
approximately how far?
A Seven and a half miles approximately.
Q And the longest distance north and south,from the
north boundary of your Group C area to the south boundary
of your Group C area, is how far?
A About five and a half miles approximately.
Q At the present time, the racial composition of
Speas School is about 996 white and 2 black, is that correct?
A Speas. 996 white and 2 black, a total of 998,
correct.
Q Sherwood Forest?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to this.
Obviously counsel has figures on the racial composition
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of the schools, also Dr. Larsen didn't go out and
count the students.
THE COURT: It is before me, Mr. Womble. I have
before me Dr. Larsen's plan, and we might Just read it
into the record. If you want to establish that on the
record on the basis of a question, Just read it in the
record and maybe we can proceed along a little faster.
Q (By Mr. Womble) If you would Just read it into
the record, Dr. Larsen.
A You want the Group C schools, in each of them?
THE COURT: You can do it faster than taking up
the individuals.
A Group C schools are as follows: Kimberly Park,
no white, 778 black, a total of 778. Lowrance, 12 white
students, 726 black, a total of 738. Speas, 996 white, 2
black, a total of 998. Sherwood Forest, 822 white, 1 black,
a total of 823. Whitaker, 608 white, 7 black, a total of
615. Moore, a total of 458 white, no black, a total of 438.
Group C constitutes a grand total of 2,876 white, 1,514
black, a total of 4,390 students, of which 34 percent are
black.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, would you please explain in
detail where you would assign the children who now attend
Kimberly Park and Lowrance Schools, and how you would arrive
at that assignment.
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
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A Yes, sir. If I could refer you to the last two
pages of my plan, Appendix 1 and Appendix 2, I have attempted
to spell that out in some detail. Would you like me to read
it aloud, or comment on it?
Q Well, let's take first Lowrance then, and explain
where you would assign the children who now attend Lowrance
School.
A Yes. I have taken the same approach as I used in
the inner city-outer rim groupings, pairings. So Lowrance
would be found in Group C-l. I have combined Lowrance with
Sherwood Forest and with Speas Elementary School, you know,
one-to-four and five-to-six grouping. The students—
THE COURT: What page?
THE WITNESS: The appendix, Your Honor, the last
two pages. Perhaps you got an earlier copy.
THE COURT: Let's see. The one I have ends with
page 22.
THE WITNESS: Yes. You need two more pages.
THE COURT: Well, I'll get it later. You all go
ahead.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have a copy.
THE COURT: You have an extra? I don't want to
take your copy.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have one, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
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A So the Lowrance Elementary School would house
grades 5 through 6 of the three other schools.
Q I believe I asked you where you would assign the
children who now go to Lowrance.
A I'm sorry. I thought you were asking where would
I get the children to go to Lowrance.
0 No, we'll get to that later.
A Yes. I would take 220 of the present Lowrance
1 to 4 students, and assign them to Speas, and 272 of the
present Lowrance grades 1 through 4 students I would assign
to Sherwood Forest Elementary School. Sherwood Forest
Elementary School and Speas Elementary School would then
become grades 1 through 4 elementary schools.
Q So actually you would be retaining the geographic
attendance zones that now exist in the Winston-Salem/
Forsyth County System insofar as Group C is concerned?
A This is quite true. I made Group C in the same
pattern as the inner city-outer city pairings.
Q And you are taking a different approach with the
middle rim Group C schools from the approach you took with
the middle rim Group B schools?
A Yes, sir. These terms "middle rim" are terms for
convenience only. It seems to me that this was the most
logical way to desegregate the schools in Group C.
Q So you would send some 492 children in the Lowrance
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attendance area out of that area and would require them to
go three to four miles to attend either Speas or Sherwood
Forest?
A For grades 1 through 4, yes, sir. Grades 5 and 6
they would attend Lowrance. Your figure, Mr. Womble, was
492, was it not, in checking the addition?
Q 492 is correct.
A That's right.
Q And to fill up Lowrance and at the same time make
space for the children from the Lowrance area that you are
sending to Speas and Sherwood Forest, you would require 333
pupils from the existing Speas Elementary attendance area-
to go to Lowrance School - that would be fifth and sixth
grades?
A 333, yes, sir.
Q And that would be all of the students in Speas
School in the fifth and sixth grades?
A Yes, sir. Lowrance becomes the fifth and sixth
grade school for the three attendance areas.
Q And then you would take from the Sherwood Forest
Elementary School all of the fifth and sixth graders, who
number about 275, and require them to go to Lowrance School?
A In their fifth and sixth grades, yes, sir.
Perhaps we should put dotted lines in signifying the present
attendance areas.
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All right, sir. Do you want to do that then?
(The witness marks map.) Now, since you utilized the present
geographic attendance areas under your Group C plan, you
have now dashed in the inner lines that separate the attend
ance areas within that district, is that correct?
A To signify that they still hold for grades 1
through 4 and in two of the schools 5 to 6, yes, sir.
Q Now, under your plan, please explain exactly what
you would do with respect to the pupils who now attend
Kimberly Park, Whitaker, and Moore Schools?
Yes, sir. For convenience, could I say where
they are going to go rather than where they’re going to come
from?
Q Either way.
A Under my plan, this would constitute Group C-2,
and the Moore Elementary School would house grades 1 through
4, in the Moore attendance area, and grades 1 through 4—
I'm sorry, and 200 students grades 1 to 4 in Kimberly Park
attendance area. Moore therefore would be a 1 to 4 school.
Whitaker would house grades 1 through 4, composed of the
students - grades 1 through 4 - presently residing in the
Whitaker attendance area, and 318 of the children presently
attending Kimberly Park, grades 1 through 4. Kimberly Park
Elementary School then would become grades 5 to 6 school,
serving all students grades 5 to 6 in the Kimberly Park area
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plus the 5 to 6 grade students from Moore and Whitaker
attendance areas.
Q So all of the first to fourth graders in the
Kimberly Park area except— well, all of the first to fourth
graders in the Kimberly Park area would be required to leave
that area and to go to either Whitaker or Moore School?
A Yes, sir.
Q For the first four grades?
A That's correct.
Q And all children in the Whitaker area in the
fifth and sixth grades would be required to go to Kimberly
Park to school, and the same would be true of the fifth and
sixth graders in the Moore area?
A For the fifth and six graders, yes, sir.
Q Now, in every instance, every child in your Group
C area would under your plan be required to go farther to
school than he now goes, during at least two years of his
elementary schooling. That's true, isn't it?
A That was a long question. For at least two years
of his elementary school days, every child will attend a
school outside of his own present attendance area, yes, sir.
Q And would have to go further to school than he now
goes?
A I haven't measured that, Mr. Womble. Wouldn't
that be conceivable that that would not necessarily be true?
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There again, with "these pupil locater pin maps to determine
precisely.
THE COURT: What he means is that sometime between
his fifth and sixth year, he has to leave his attendance
area. I'm not saying that that's true, Mr. Womble. Go
ahead.
Q (By Mr. Womble) That's correct, isn't it, that
he would be required to leave his present attendance area
for part of his elementary schooling?
A Yes, sir.
Q And every first to fourth grader in the Lowrance
and Kimberly Park School attendance zones would be required
to go two to four times as far to school as he is now
required to go?
A I couldn't swear on the two to four times pre
cisely, Mr. Womble. He has to go outside his present
attendance area.
Q Based upon your prior testimony, that would be
true, wouldn't it, approximately? Isn't that about correct?
A It could well be.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, that completes the
questioning on the elementary schools. Now, what we
would like to do now is to put an overlay that would
be identified as Defendants' Exhibit 47, to ask
questions about the junior high school assignment plan.
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(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 47 for identification.)
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, could we take a break
while they're putting up that map?
THE COURT: It looks pretty clear to me that
they're going to have to do some drawing. How much
time, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: I expect that would be appropriate,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: We will take an undeclared break, and
you all let me know, and do it as quickly as you can
so that we can get back. We won't have a lengthy break.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Womble.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Just one further question on the
middle rim elementary schools. Under your plan, Dr. Larsen,
would there be any right of transfer by a pupil from a
school to which the pupil is assigned to attend another
school?
A I had made no comment on that in my plan.
Q In other words, your plan does not provide for
any right of transfer by a pupil after assignment?
A The plan itself, no. I believe I made no comment
on that at all.
Q Were you aware of the fact that most of the black
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children who attend Brunson School are there under the
present freedom of transfer plan?
A No, sir. I assumed it was an attendance area,
as it is with every other school.
0 In other words, in Brunson School where you have
540 white students and 135 black students, for a total of
675 students, twenty percent of whom are black, if it is a
fact that most of those black pupils are currently attend
ing Brunson as a result of their exercise of freedom of
transfer, then under your plan there would be no provision
for the continuation of those black students at that school?
A It would be by the Brunson attendance area. I'd
assumed from the information available, that that was what
was at Brunson now.
Q Dr. Larsen, I now refer you to an overlay which
has been put up over Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29, which has been
identified as Defendants' Exhibit 47 and which has been
marked with a black line around the perimeter of the county
on the east, south and west sides, for match line purposes.
I ask if you would please show on this overlay by marking
with the marker the areas in which pupils would be assigned
to Glenn Junior High School.
A I have not done that on my previous overlay pre
cisely.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to the
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I don't see the relevance in that.proceeding anyway.
He has indicated that Glenn would serve as a feeder
school, and I think it's enough to establish what he's
talking about. Now he asks that he go back and draw
some lines around the area attendance zone and the
district of the elementary schools that would be served
by Glenn Junior High School. If we're going to go
through every junior high school and senior high
school like that, we're going to be here until next
week.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I don’t think it will
take us too long to do it, and I think it's important
for us to see exactly what is being planned, because
just reading this plan I think leaves much to be
desired in trying to understand what is proposed.
THE COURT: I understand that this is cross
examination, but Mr. Womble, there is truth in the
statement that if we go through each one of these -
and maybe that isn't the answer - it doesn't necessarily
answer the question - why, we would be here a long
time. But within some limits, I will let you continue,
but hopefully it will not be just a reiteration of the
plan. All right; go ahead.
A (By the witness) Mr. Womble, if I could mention
that on page 18, I do say that the junior high schools would
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be constituted by drawing new attendance area boundaries
for each Junior high school, incorporating the elementary
schools for that Junior high - the feeder elementary schools
for that Junior high.
Q That's what I'm asking.
A Now, Glenn Junior High, which is on page 19,
would incorporate the Group 1 schools - Mebane, Union Cross,
and Waughtown. If you recall, in Union Cross and Waughtown
Schools, these kept their present attendance areas, and
we had incorporated them into Group 1, the Mebane School,
and its attendance area. Now, there will be - as I am sure
you will realize, these are not necessarily contiguous -
that is that the Mebane Elementary attendance area is not
cultriminous with the Union Cross attendance area or the
Sedge Garden attendance area. So the best way to do that
is to paint them—
Q If we could Just put a line around the attendance
area and then draw a line from the elementary school in
that attendance area to Glenn High School.
A We can try. Now, would you want me to re-outline
the Mebane attendance area by itself? That's what we'll
have to do here.
Q If you want to, Just draw a line from the school,
around the school.
THE COURT: Now, Glenn is east of Forest Park
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Elementary, isn’t it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
G (3y Mr. Womble) Now, this would be for the
junior high?
A Yes, sir. The junior high attendance area, Mr.
Wo ruble, would incorporate these three elementary schools.
If you are making an overlay, the only way I know how to do
thal — it's a big job — would be to do as some overlays
are - you have to color each junior high attendance area,
entire shading, because as I said, they are not contiguous.
Q Did you prepare such an overlay?
A No, sir, I didn’t think it was necessary,
u Now, you have drawn a line from Union Cross
Elementary to Glenn, from V/aughtown Elementary to Glenn,
and from Mebane Elementary to Glenn?
A Yes, sir.
0 Under your plan, all of the children in the
present Union Cross attendance district, all of the children
in the present Waughtown district, and all of the children
in the present Mebane district, would go to Glenn Junior
High School?
A Yes, sir.
All right. Now, would you do the same thing for
the Walkertown Junior High School?
A. Walkertown Junior High is here, and it would be
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bed by Walkertown Elementary, which is next to it, and by
Kemersville in part - yes, by Kernersville and by Kirby.
Do you want a line drawn from each of them?
Q Yes. Now, would that be— you say Just part of
the Kernersville area?
A Yes, Group 3 is one of the split groups as far as
feeding secondary education. Part of Group 3 schools will
feed Walkertown Junior High. Part will be Kernersville.
That's on the table on page 19.
Q Now, am I correct in understanding that under your
plan, you would take the— well, let's see. How many
children would you take from the Kernersville Elementary
School to assign to the Walkertown Junior High School?
A I did not go into it completely there, because
the assignment, I would assume, would be by nearness. If
you split the group, the assignment to the Junior high
would be by nearness to that Junior high from the pupil's
home, and there again, without a pupil locater map, I
couldn't precisely do it. What I have said is to Walkertown
Junior High, the Group 3 elementary school graduates -
Walkertown, Kernersville and Fairview Elementary Schools -
set up to 700 of these, they will move into the Walkertown
Junior High School upon graduation from their respective
elementary schools. Also there would be another group from
those elementary schools that upon graduation will move
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into the Kernersville Junior High School, and there again
the assignment would be most conveniently made by nearness
to the homes.
Q But for the paramount purpose of achieving a
particular racial mix?
A I would assume that would come out, because the
racial mix is already in Group 3. I would not_
You would necessarily take the children from areas
close to Kernersville Junior High School and require them
to go some five miles - four or five miles - to Walkertown
Junior High School?
A I don't know how many that would be, Mr. Womble,
because I don't know precisely where the children live in
this particular area. Some may already live pretty close
to Walkertown. It would be possible for Kernersville—
Jt would be possible they'd be closer to one than the other.
Q But assuming that the concentration of population
now serving the Kernersville Junior High School is in and
around, the Town of Kernersville, your plan would necessarily
involve taking some children from close to Kernersville
High school and sending them some approximately five
miles to Walkertown Junior High, wouldn't it?
A Based upon the assumption that you made at the
first phase of your question, possibly.
Q And to send children from the Fairview area who
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new attend Kennedy Junior High School, you would require
children to go approximately five and a half miles to
school, where they now live within a mile to a mile and a
half of Kennedy Junior High, wouldn't you?
A Yes, they would continue on into junior high
school with the classmates or the people they have been
going to school with primarily, into junior high school.
Q As a result of—
A It's all part of the same plan.
Q Of being transported out of their attendance area
to another area to go to school?
A You mean out of their present junior high attend
ance area, or out of their present elementary area?
Q The present elementary attendance area.
A They are transported, as I said earlier, for at
least two years of their six years.
Q Under your plan?
A Yes, sir.
G I wonder if you might just put the word "Part"
on the lines you have drawn from Kernersville and Fairview
toward Walkertown School to indiate that that is not all the
children that go to that school. (The witness marks the
map.) How, under your plan, where would the children who
attend Glenn and Walkertown Junior High Schools go to high
school?
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A On page 19, they would be — East Senior High
School.
Would you indicate by just a dash line from the
two junior high schools to the high school, to just indicate
that that's where they would go? (The witness marks the
map.) Now, where would the children— please show on the
map the same way that you have done with these other two
where the children would come from to attend Kennedy Junior
High School.
A Kennedy Junior High School would be fed by the
Group 2 elementary schools, which would be Sedge Garden,
Kernersville and Skyland.
MR. CHAMBERS: Dr. Larsen, we'd like to get what
you're saying on the record.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: You may repeat it. What were you
saying, Dr. Larsen?
THE WITNESS: I was trying to say, Your Honor,
that within Group 2 of the elementary schools, Sedge
Garden, Skyland and Kernersville - it is not all
Kernersville Elementary School, as we established,
when we're talking about the elementary grades, junior
high— it's all in that package that's going to junior
high school.
(By Mr. Womble) I believe I need to get that
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clarified. Under your plan, do any of the children who are
assigned to Kernersville Elementary School go to Kennedy
Junior High School?
A . Yes, sir.
0 So it is true then, is it not, that in the same
sense that part of the children assigned to Kernersville
Elementary School would be assigned to Walkertown Junior
High School, that likewise part of the children who are
assigned to Kernersville Elementary will go to Kennedy
Junior High School?
A Yes, sir. That is another way of saying it; it
comes out the same way. Group 2, you see, is not split -
that is in the same sense that Group 3 was split.
Q Do the little "v’s" on these lines accurately
indicate the direction in which the children would be going,
generally speaking, from an elementary school to a Junior
high school?
A I believe so, yes, sir.
Q And then from junior high school to high school?
A Yes.
Q So that under your plan, you would assign to
junior high school pupils from Skyland, which was in the
eastern part of Winston-Salem, pupils from the Sedge Garden
area which lies east of the City of Winston-Salem and south
of Kernersville - southwest of Kernersville - and some of the
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from the Kenersville Elementary School area into
Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q It would mean that the pupils who now live in
the Sedge Garden Elementary School area and who are pre
sently assigned to Glenn Junior High School would under
your plan he required to go the mileage involved from their
present places of residence in the Sedge Garden area into
the center of Winston-Salem to Kennedy Junior High School,
which junior high school is located on a direct line approxi
mately five and a half miles west of the Sedge Garden
Elementary School?
A Yes, sir. It's important to remember, Mr. Womble -
and I am sure you realize this - is that those same Sedge
Garden students have been attending fifth and sixth grades
in my plan in Skyland.
Q Under your plan?
A Yes.
Q But not at the present time.
A Yes.
Q And Kemersville Elementary School on a direct
line is some eight and a half miles east of Kennedy Junior
High School, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, would you please do the same thing to indicate
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how children under your plan would be assigned to Kerners-
ville Junior High School?
A This would be the Group 3 elementary school
attendance area - Walkertown, Kemersville, Fairview - by
pupil location, so by drawing it here from Kernersville
Junior High on the same site - this is Kernersville
Elementary School - we would also pull some of the Walker-
town pupils and the Fairview pupils. And of course the
Kernersville pupils are on the same side.
Q So here again, instead of sending children from
the Fairview area in the City of Winston-Salem to Kennedy
Junior High School, which is practically in the center of
Winston-Salem, under your plan you would send them several
miles east to Kernersville Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Again that would be in part, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you indicate that on the map, please? (The
witness marks the map.) Now, where would the children who
attend Kernersville Junior High School and Kennedy Junior
High School go to senior high school under your plan?
A Atkins.
Q Is there some way by dash line you can indicate
that?
A We're getting too much on one overlay.
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Q So that under your plan, pupils who have attended
junior high school in Kernersville - at the Kernersville
Junior High School - would then be sent into the City of
Winston-Salem several miles to the west at Atkins Senior
High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, East High School is just about halfway from
Kernersville to Atkins, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
0 So you would wind up with the situation where a
substantial percentage of the pupils who live in the Kerners
ville Elementary School attendance zone would have gone to
Walkertown Junior High and East High School, while other
pupils in the Kernersville Elementary attendance zone would
have been sent to Winston-Salem to Kennedy Junior High
School and then to Atkins High School?
A Unfortunately this is right. East is full, so
it's somewhat of a Hobson's choice in that district.
Q It's a choice that's made to achieve the over
riding result of the proportionate—
A It's also possible that it could be achieved
without splitting the elementary groups by feeding them
in the junior-senior high a bit differently. You might be
able to achieve it also. This is the way I did it, and it
seemed comparatively logical.
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U
Li the brief time I had, yes, sir. I think it
This was the best plan you could come up with?
Well, you had some time before January and you've
had since January, haven't you?
A Technically, yes, sir.
THE COURT: Maybe I'm overlooking something, but
on this chart, you're taking out of the Kernersville
area and bringing them in to Atkins ultimately, is
that right?
0 (By Mr. Womble) Taking out of the Kernersville
area and sending part of them to Walkertown Junior High and
then to East, and sending the rest of them into Kennedy
Junior High and to Atkins. Is that right?
A And to Kernersville Junior High.
THE COURT: My next question was you're taking
them out of that area— will I find from these charts
how Kernersville then gets filled back up with its
students?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it's on here. There are
400 students feeding Kernersville Junior High School.
THE COURT: What page are you looking at?
THE WITNESS: On page 19.
THE COURT: I'm too far over. I've got it. I'jp
one page over. I was looking for it on the chart on
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page 20.
THE WITNESS: It's on the chart, sir, table 7.
THE COURT: Table 7.
THE WITNESS: Kernersville Junior High will feed
Atkins Senior High.
THE COURT: Yes. I follow that, but I don't see
how on that chart where Kernersville Senior High—
HR. WOMBLE: There is no senior high at Kerners
ville.
THE COURT: They come in to East?
THE WITNESS: That's right, sir.
Q (By Hr. Womble) At the present time, East High
School serves—
A The entire east side.
Q The entire east side of the county, is that correc-
A Almost, except for the little cut-off at the
bottom there.
THE COURT: Yes. There are so many schools, I've
forgotten, but that is true.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, Dr. Larsen, would you please
follow the same approach to show how you would send children
to Griffith Junior High School, Philo Junior High School,
Hill Junior High School, and then the Parkland Senior High
School. And let me give you a blue marker this time so
that—
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A Parkland Senior High School is in the southern
orbit of the district. Parkland will be fed, as you see on
page 19, table 7, it will be fed by Griffith Junior High,
which is just below it on the same side as Griffith Elementarjy
Griffith Junior High is fed by Griffith Elementary, by
Clemmons, and by Brown Elementary, which is in the city.
Parkland is also fed by Philo Junior High.
Q So that under your plan, you would bring all
children from the Clemmons Elementary area over to Griffith
Junior High School to attend junior high school, is that
correct?
A In part.
Q Is it in part or is it en toto?
A Group 6 elementary schools feed in part Griffith
Junior High and in part Dalton Junior High.
Q Are you talking about Griffith now or Clemmons?
A The whole group, Group 6.
Q Now, how are you going to decide who goes to
Griffith Junior High from the Clemmons area and who goes to
Dalton Junior High from the Clemmons area?
A That would be decided in the same way that we
outlined the eastern sector of the district. We have to
split one of these feeder elementary groups. I would assume
that the Board assigning them to the school is on the basis
of their homes, and there again you need a pupil locater map.
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Q So at the Junior high school level then, you would
break up the Clemmons Elementary attendance zone into two
parts, one of which would go to Griffith Junior High School
and one of which would go to Dalton?
A That is correct.
Q And none of those children would go to Southwest
Junior High?
A Not in my plan, no, sir.
Q Which is the school they all go to now?
A Yes, sir. Well, I assume so. That's where the
school is located. Do you want me to go on to Philo?
Q Yes. Now take Philo.
A Philo is located right here near Parkland (indi
cating on map). It feeds Parkland, and it is fed in turn
by Konnoak and Easton Elementary Schools. Hill Junior High
feeds Parkland, and is in turn fed by the Group B elementary
schools.
Q Before you get to that, insofar as Easton and
Konnoak are concerned, actually you are making no change
there, are you? They now go to Philo Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they now go to Parkland?
A That’s true.
Q So that except for your proposed pairing of Easton
and Konnoak, you are making no change for the pupils in
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those two elementary attendance areas?
A whether they are paired or not, they are the same
youngsters apparently.
Q They go to Philo Junior High School and on to
Parkland Senior High School?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right. Now, how about the third junior high
school, Hill Junior High School, that you would have feed
into Parkland?
A Hill Junior High School will be fed by the Group
B elementary schools - Diggs, Latham, Forest Park, South
Park, Ardmore - up to its capacity of approximately eight
hundred.
Q Now, you understand that at the present time, the
pupils in the Latham and Ardmore attendance areas are
assigned to Dalton Junior High Scnool, which is almost
directly west of Ardmore and Latham Schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q And also those same pupils go after graduation
from Dalton Junior High School, they go to Reynolds Senior
High School, in which attendance area they are located under
the present plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under your plan, the pupils in the Ardmore and
Latham attendance areas would be sent east to Hill Junior
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High School, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Which is further for those pupils than Dalton,
isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Then you would send those pupils to Parkland to
high school rather than to Reynolds High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you say that part of these children in these
attendance areas would go to Hill Junior High School?
A In that one attendance area, the Group B attendance
area, speaking my plan attendance area.
Q Group B in your plan covers Diggs, Latham, Forest
Park, South Park and Ardmore, doesn't it?
A Yes.
Q And there are 2,800 elementary school children
in Group B?
A That's right.
Q Now, that would generate how many junior high
school students?
A It would generate - I assume they are all going
to junior high school. The junior high school is a three-
year school, where the elementary school is a six-year
school. You'll notice in Group B—
Q So there would be about fourteen hundred?
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-16
A Yes, sir.
Q Junior high school students.
A Drawing from that group.
Q Drawing from that area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are sending eight hundred of the fourteen
hundred to Hill Junior High School?
A Yes, sir, which is its approximate capacity.
Q Where are you sending the other six hundred?
A Go over to the next page, Mr. Womble, page 20.
They will be feeding Anderson Junior High School.
Q Now, how under your plan do you select which eight
hundred of the fourteen hundred children in the Diggs,
Latham, Forest Park, South Park and Ardmore Elementary
attendance areas go to Hill Junior High School and which
six hundred - which eight hundred go to Hill and six hundred
go to Anderson?
A The Board would have, I assume, pupil locater
maps for all of the attendance areas incorporated in Group B
and to be assigned to the respective junior high school, as
I've indicated, those students in the area nearest them.
Q It would be the children based in the area nearest
the school, or would it be based on achieving a proportionate
racial mix?
A The same objective holds. It would be both.
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Q Under your plan, the achievement of the propor
tionate racial mix would take priority, wouldn't it?
A There are equal priorities, and one would take
priority over the other, yes, sir, either way, if I under
stand it correctly.
Q How can you give them equal priority?
A You will have all these youngsters graduating—
I don't know if you use the term "elementary schools" here,
but you would have all these youngsters graduating from
these several elementary schools, and you will assign them
on the basis of pupil locater maps. Now, specifically how
you would do that and still keep nearly the same ratio of
composition as in elementary school would be based on where
they live. I can't answer it any more clearly than that,
Mr. Womble.
Q It's pretty confusing, isn't it?
A I don't think so; I don't agree.
Q You think that your answer clearly explains it?
A Yes. If it doesn't, I have said it poorly and I
would rephrase it.
Q I would appreciate it if you would.
A As this example. If because of just plain numbers
of children we do not have a junior high school unless we
would build huge additions - and I ’ve tried to avoid building
huge additions to secondary schools - we don't have junior
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high schools big enough to hold the feeder of the five
elementary schools that I have put in Group B. Therefore
they have to be split between two junior high schools on
the basis of those respective junior high school capacity,
because the objective - my objective - was to desegregate
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school district, and I
doubt the definition to do so. I must assume then the
assignment will be on the basis of maintaining an equivalent
racial balance in each junior high school. Now, you can
only do that by assigning students by race and by location.
Does that explain it any more clearly?
Q And in order to achieve what you are purporting to
achieve—
MR. CHAMBERS: I object to the phraseology of
"purporting".
THE COURT: Sustained. You may rephrase it.
Q (By Mr. Womble) What you plan to achieve for
Anderson Junior High School and Hill Junior High School,
you would use your plan then of assigning the black pupils
who live nearest to Anderson until you reach the number
that would give you - strike that. In order to determine
the division of black pupils being assigned to Anderson
Junior High and black pupils being assigned to Hill Junior
High, do I understand correctly that you would take
approximately half of the - I guess it would be what - eight-
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fourteenths of the black children in your Group B who
reside closest to Hill Junior High, you would send them
there?
A Let me put it this way, Mr. Womble. I don't want
this to be confusing. V/e have a feeder group of Group B
elementary schools, which en toto means I have to feed into
junior high from Group B fourteen hundred elementary students,
Okay. Now, if I can feed them all into one junior high, that
junior high obviously would then become an integrated junior
high school of approximately twenty-two percent black.
However, because of the junior high capacities in this
particular sort of southern area of the district, we have
to split this feeder group into two groups that will more
or less reach the capacities of the two junior highs. I
would hope and I would assume that this split would be made
in such a way that the Hill Junior High School would be
approximately twenty-two percent Negro and Anderson High
School would be approximately twenty-two percent Negro,
because that is what the feeding population is. Now, where
you divide it and how you divide it, there again, would be
the pupil locater maps.
Q Then what you would be doing would be sending some
of the children in your Group B area - that is, in the
Ardmore, Latham, Diggs, Forest Park, and South Park areas,
to Hill Junior High School and some to Anderson?
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A That’s correct.
Q And at this point you can’t tell us where you
would draw the lines for the purpose of making those assign
ments?
A That's right.
Q And the 800 children selected underyour plan to
attend Hill Junior High School from this Group B area would
then be assigned to Parkland, is that correct?
A Hill Junior High School feeds Parkland, yes, sir.
Q Now, the 600 children whom you would select out
of your Group B elementary attendance area - at least there
would be 600 from that area that you would send to Anderson?
A Yes, sir.
Q And at this point you can't tell us which way you
would draw the line for making those assignments?
A No, sir, same reason.
Q Now, where would the children assigned to Anderson
Junior High School then be sent to high school?
A I have put them into Carver Senior High School.
You will recall I suggested that Carver become a senior
high school only, fed by Anderson which will become a Junior
high school only, and by Hanes Junior High School.
Q Now, Carver is a school that was designed to serve
twelve grades?
A Yes, sir.
9*
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Q And is located in the northeast area of the city?
A Of the city, yes, sir.
Q Near the northern boundary of the city?
A Is that a question?
Q Yes.
A Where is the boundary? Close to it.
Q Now, this would mean then, under your plan, pupils
who now live in the southern portion of the city and who
under the Board of Education's plan would either be assigned
to Reynolds High School, if they live in the Ardmore-Latham
areas, or would be assigned to Parkland if they live in the
Diggs-Forest Park or Waughtown areas, would be split for
high school purposes between Parkland and Carver?
A Yes, sir. You're speaking now of the Group 5
elementary schools. Group B; I'm sorry. Diggs, Latham,
Forest Park, South Park and Ardmore.
Q And Carver School is farther away from where those
pupils live than either Parkland or Reynolds, isn't it?
A That's right. There's no more room in Parkland
basically.
Q I know it gets a little bit difficult, but I
wonder if on tills overlay now you could indicate that in
part the children attending your Group B elementary go to
Anderson Junior High and then to Carver High School with
your blue pencil.
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Yes, sir. We're talking about the Carver Senior
High School.
Q From the Anderson area.
A Yes, sir. We've already established the Anderson
feeder pattern as being fed by parts of the Group B schools.
Anderson feeds then Carver Senior High School. Now, Carver
Senior High School is also fed by the large group of schools
in Group C, which would be Hanes— do you want me to do
that?
Q If you would, please. Please show which schools
under your plan would attend Hanes Junior High and feed from
Hanes Junior High into Carver Senior High.
A Hanes Junior High would be fed by part of the
population in the Group C schools, that is the Kimberly
Park, Lowrance, Speas, Sherwood Forest, Whitaker, and Moore.
Q Now, at the present time of the group that you
would have attending Lowrance - I mean attending Hanes
Junior High, which of the attendance areas now serving Hanes
Junior High?
A Let's see. North and Lowrance, is a predominantly
black school.
Q Under your plan, you would draw into Hanes Junior
High pupils from Whitaker School who now go to Reynolds High
School - I mean who now go to Wiley Junior High School, and
then to Reynolds, correct?
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Q You would also send to Hanes Junior High pupils
from Moore Elementary who now attend Dalton Junior High,
is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you would draw into Hanes Junior High pupils
from Sherwood Forest Elementary who now attend Jefferson
Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
Q And also pupils from Speas Elementary who now
attend Jefferson Junior High?
A Yes. These six schools would be split between
Hanes and Paisley.
Q That was the next question.
A Okay; I'm sorry.
Q Now, how many children do you have in the Group C -
strike that. Do these pupils who you would assign on Moore,
Whitaker, Sherwood Forest, and Speas, to Hanes Junior High
School, account for all of the pupils in those schools?
A No, sir. It counts for 600 of the pupils that
will be moving out of those schools into junior high.
Q Six hundred out of how many total?
A Out of a feeding group of 1,550.
Q You would take 600 of the 1,550 from those schools
and send them to Hanes?
A Yes, sir.
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A
Q And that would leave 950 to be assigned elsewhere?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where would the others be assigned?
A Paisley Junior High School.
Q All of them?
A Yes, sir. I'm sorry. They are split in three
parts. One group of 600 would be feeding Hanes. One group
of 730 approximately would be feeding Jefferson, and one
group of 950 approximately would be feeding Paisley.
Q So the total then, instead of being 1,550, is
actually about 2,300?
A Yes, sir.
Q And of the 2,300 in Group C, you would have 950
feeding into Paisley Junior High School?
A Yes.
Q 730 feeding into Jefferson Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q And 600 feeding into Hanes Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you tell the Court where you would draw the
geographic lines for the purpose of making those assignments?
A No, I cannot, sir. You have this large geographic
area which incorporates the Group C schools, elementary
schools, You have within that area three Junior high
Yes, sir.
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schools, and assignment by numbers as you point out.
Q So under your plan, some of the children who live
in the Sherwood Forest area would wind up going to Jefferson
Junior High School. Some of them would wind up going to
Paisley Junior High School. Some of them would wind up
going to Hanes Junior High School.
A That’s right, sir.
Q You can't tell us who or where you would draw the
lines to make those divisions?
A Not without a pupil locater map, no, sir.
Q And you haven't done that?
A No, sir, I have not had that available to me.
G You haven't asked for it, have you?
A No, sir.
Q And the same would be true for each of the other
geographic attendance zones in Group C, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir. It's only fair for me to point out, Mr.
Womble, 1 can't say for sure that a particular school
population based on the old attendance area will not feed
the ones here. Do you understand what I mean?
0. No.
A We do not have to assume that pupils presently
in the old Moore attendance area will be split three ways.
It may be only necessary to split them two ways. But
without a pupil locater map, I cannot say.
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0 Under your Group C plan—
A Yes.
Q You retained the integrity of the present attend
ance zones for the purpose of assigning pupils to elementary
schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q In other words, you used the same attendance
zones but sent the children in grades 1 through 4 into the
schools that are now predominantly white, and the children
in grades 5 and 6 into the schools that are now black or
predominantly black?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, for the purpose of making assignments at the
junior high school level, do you retain the integrity of
those geographic - those elementary geographic zones in any
way?
A Inasmuch as one can, Mr. Womble.
Q Well, how much can you?
A I don't know.
Q Now, under your plan then, where would the pupils
from Hanes Junior High School go to senior high school?
A Carver.
Q Would you indicate that on the map, please?
THE COURT: You said they would go to Carver?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
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Q (By Mr. Womble) Under your plan, would all of the
pupils assigned to Hanes Junior High School then be
assigned to Carver?
A I believe that's correct.
Q So that would mean then that some of the children
who live in the - some but not all of the children who live
in the Lowrance-Kimberly Park, Moore, Whitaker, Sherwood
Forest and Speas Elementary School districts would be
assigned to Carver Senior High School?
A I think of the thing as one district, but it would
eventuate to where each of the elementary schools presently
would probably be represented in greater or lesser part
then to each junior high. I cannot precisely swear to that,
but I could determine with a pupil locater map.
Q And many of these pupils, if not most of them,
live closer to Reynolds High School or Mount Tabor High
School than they do to Carver?
A Many do.
Q And probably most of them, certainly most of the
white ones?
A It's probably true of Mount Tabor, Mr. Womble.
There's such a density of population when you get nearer
the inner city, I could not quite swear to the latter part.
Q Well, all of these children live from— all of
the children you would be sending from Hanes Junior High
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School to Carver live west of the airport, don’t they?
A To use the aiiport as the northwest limit of
Lowrance, this would be true. The northwest limit of the
Lowrance attendance area is the northwest limit of the
Group C attendance area.
Q You mean northeast?
A Northeast; I’m sorry.
Q And practically all of the white pupils in this
area that you are drawing from, that you would send to Hanes
on to Carver, live west of Cherry-Marshall Street, don’t
they?
A Of the 600 that would be going into Hanes, we
would pulling white pupils— show me Cherry-Marshall.
0 Here.
A You said most? A relatively small group of 600,
yes, relatively speaking.
Q Dr. Larsen, why do you propose to make Carver a
senior high school?
A I think I said on direct testimony that I tried
to desegregate the schools without closing down schools en
toto or in building huge additions to present schools. It
appeared to me that Carver is an adequate building for a
senior high school with some remodeling, and this could be
used. You will note that I have assigned into it approxi
mately twelve hundred students. I think it can be an
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adequate senior high school building.
Q Did you go through Carver?
A No, sir, I didn't go inside, in the school.
u But you do know that Carver was built as a twelve-
grade school?
A It was built to house all of the black students
in grades 1 through 12.
Q And even without looking at it, you wouldn't
expect that part of it that was built to house the elementary
grades to be satisfactory for high school purposes, senior
high school?
A Some of the rooms can be, Mr. Womble, not all, of
course.
Q The design of elementary schools is different from
the design of senior high schools, isn't it?
A You have general purpose classrooms in both, and
this depends of course on the furniture put in them. They
are bigger desks.
Q Well, you usually have— there's a difference in
the size of rooms, difference in the height of the black
boards, and there's a difference in the height of the
fountains, there's a difference in all kinds of things,
isn't there, between an elementary school and a senior high
school?
A Yes, sir.
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0 And you don't have the lab facilities in an
elementary school that you have in a senior high school, do
you?
A Well, Carver is presently elementary and senior
and junior high, and there are lab facilities there.
Q And they were designed for a much smaller number
of senior high school students than you're talking about,
aren't they?
A I assume so. As I said, I haven't been there.
Q Now, where would the remainder of the 2,300 pupils
in Group C feed into at the junior high school level under
your plan?
A I think we said to Jefferson and to Paisley.
G Do you know?
A Yes. We've already said it. We are recapitulating.
Q And you cannot tell us, as I understand it, at
this time how you would draw the lines or how you would
designate on a map where pupils would be assigned from to
Jefferson or to Paisley?
A Not from their homes, no, sir.
Q Now, if you would, please explain for us your
pattern of assignment to feed into North Senior High School.
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, it's about 12:35; about
how much longer do you think?
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MR. WOMBLE: I would guess, Your Honor, maybe as
much as two hours.
MR. CHAMBERS: I was going to object to this. We
stated an objection a moment ago about having Dr.
Larsen going through and drawing the maps and lines
and arrows. I respectfully submit that it is really
an imposition on the witness. Mr. Womble has a copy
of the plan that Dr. Larsen has submitted, and I
respectfully submit to the Court that the responsibility
for the plan, if one is required, is on the School
Board itself. Now, Dr. Larsen has testified that he
did not have a pupil locater map to point out all of
the districts where the pupils reside, and the Court
indicated that it had these two days, and if we're
going to get into details now about every school, every
junior high school and senior high school, and where
everybody lives, I submit that we won't finish by
Friday.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, I don't want to establish
any precedent whereby somebody can put in a document
that is drawn by a witness and then not be examined
about it. I agree with you that this seems pretty
repetitious and as he goes from groups to groups, it
is apparent to me that what Dr. Larsen has done in
accomplishing the objectives that he sets out in his
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report - that is to come within this ten percent limit -
that he has drawn lines to do that, and that it is a
long way sometimes from where the pupil is to where he
is going to school. And I don't think that as he goes
from group to group he will uncover anything much but
that, and that seems to be the point that Mr. Womble
is making - which to me seems a little repetitious,
but I don't want to establish any precedent where
somebody comes in and puts in a document of this type
and then is not allowed to be cross examined with
reference to it. I would like to hold this within
some limits, and I urge on you, Mr. Womble, to try to
do so. But I don't mean you— you can, you know, Just
stay here for weeks asking questions about it, but he
is going from group tc group and the same thing comes
to light as Dr. Larsen has testified about, but I
hesitate to cut off cross examination. 1 don't know -
I am here listening to it - I don't know on appeal that
it might be more enlightening with Dr. Larsen's comments,
but as I say, I hesitate to cut off cross examination.
Let's take a recess until 1:45.
(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned to reconvene
at 1:45 p.m.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Dr. Larsen, if you will come back to
the stand, please.
IK. WOMBLE: Your Honor, at your suggestion, I’m
going to try to abbreviate this as much as possible,
instead of bringing out what we believe needs to be
brought out. And with that in mind, we will not try
to add lines to show all of the feeder patterns for the
junior and senior high schools, but to ask some questions
without the drawing of lines and to put in some lines
where we feel it's important.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Dr. Larsen, moving from your
proposed Carver Senior High to your proposed North Senior
High assignment plan, as I understand it, you leave the
Old Town Elementary School district just as it is?
A Yes, I did leave it.
Q And you would leave the Old Kichmond Elementary
School district just as it is?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, under your plan, you would send the children
in the Old Town Elementary district to Northwest Junior
High instead of to Jefferson Junior High where they now go,
is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
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Q That's the Old Town Elementary district would be
moved under your plan from a feeder to Jefferson Junior
High to make it a feeder to Northwest Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
Q It would then feed from Northwest Junior High
School to North High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Instead of to Mount Tabor High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Old Richmond, which is located in the northwest
corner of the county, would continue as it now exists,
serving the same elementary school district and feeding
into Northwest Junior High and going from Northwest Junior
High to North Senior High, is that correct?
A That is correct, yes, sir.
Q Now, the rest of the students at Northwest Junior
High under your plan would be the students from the Rural
Hall Elementary School district who now go to Northwest
Junior High, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the Oak Summit Elementary School district
who now also go to North High?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you would add to North the children from
the Carver Crest Elementary School district, which is one of
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your inner-rim schools located in the north central part
of the city?
A It's one of the three schools that make up
Group 4 elementary schools, that's right. Rural Hall,
Carver Crest - they would all go to Northwest Junior High.
Q Now, for the children in the Carver Crest district,
at the present time those children go to Paisley Junior
High School, which is quite close to where they live, is
that right?
A Yes, sir.
0 And then they go to Reynolds Senior High School,
which is also quite close to where they live?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under your plan, the Carver Crest geographic
attendance area children would go to Rural Hall and Oak
Summit Elementary Schools for grades 1 through 4?
A Yes.
They would go to Carver Crest for grades 5 and 6?
A That's right.
Q They would then be sent out to Northwest Junior
High for junior high school?
A Yes, sir.
Q And to North Senior High for senior high?
A They become part of the North group.
0 So that for those children in the Carver Crest
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area, they would attend school within walking distance of
their ho.ues for only two years, the fifth and sixth grades,
of the twelve years they would be in the public school
system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whereas now they are in walking distance for all
twelve grades?
A Yes.
Q And of course, both of those are within easy
walking distance, aren’t they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under your plan, the other feeder for North
Senior High School would be Mineral Springs Junior High
School, which is presently a feeder for North?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you would draw for Mineral Springs Junior
High ochool pupils from Prince Ibraham, which is presently
in the Mineral Springs Junior High School district—
A Yes, sir.
And from Mineral Springs Elementary, which is also
in the present Mineral Springs Junior High School district——
A Yes, sir.
Q And from Petree, which is presently in the East
High School district?
A Yes, sir. Petree, Ibraham, Mineral Springs are
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part of the Group A elementary schools.
Q Now, Petree at the present time has approximately
330 pupils, of whom 280 are white, 49 are black, and 1
Indian. That's correct, isn't it?
A Those are the same figures I have, yes, sir.
Q And you are familiar with the fact that under
the proposal of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of
Education, it is proposed to further integrate Petree by
closing Carver Elementary and assigning some of the pupils
from the old Carver area to Petree?
A Yes, I believe that's true.
Q And that under the proposal of the Winston-Salem/
F'orsyth County Board of Education the children in the Petree
area would go to East High School?
A I believe so, yes.
Q Now, East High School is much closer to the Petree
Elementary School district than North High School, isn't it?
A Yes, by a mile or two.
Q How far is it approximately from Petree to East
High School?
A Well, from building to building, it'd be two and
a half miles from building to building.
Q How far is it from Petree to North?
A There again from building to building, it's about—
a little over six miles.
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Q Now, moving to your proposal for Mount Tabor
Senior High School, this would be fed by only one Junior
high school, is that correct?
A Presently Jefferson Junior High.
Q So that under your plan, Mount Tabor Senior High
would be fed by Jefferson Junior High, and Jefferson Junior
High would draw its students from which schools?
A The Group C schools in part. We identified them
earlier - Kimberly Park, Lowrance, Speas, Sherwood Forest,
Whitaker and Moore.
Q So this would mean then that some of the children
living in the Lowrance area, in the immediate vicinity of
Hanes Junior High School, would be required to go to
Jefferson Junior High School. Is that correct?
A Some - I don't know how many. Kimberly Park is
a bit closer to Jefferson.
Q Under your plan, it would be required that some
of the black children living in the Lowrance area would be
required to go to Jefferson Junior High School, wouldn't it?
A Some.
Q And those children live within walking distance
of Hanes Junior High School, don't they?
A And some of them will be going to Hanes, of course.
Q And those who are sent to Jefferson will have how
far to go by straight line measurement? From Lowrance
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School, just measure from Lowrance School to Jefferson
Junior High School.
A That is about four and a half miles.
Q Now, some of the children under your plan assigned
to Jefferson Junior High will also be going to Jefferson
Junior High from the Kimberly Park area, won’t they?
A Yes, sir.
Q All of those children in the Kimberly Park area
live within walking distance of Paisley Junior High, don't
they?
A They live within a mile.
Q And the distance - when you say within a mile,
that would be within a mile from their residence to Paisley
Junior High?
A That’s right.
Q Now, the distance from Kimberly Park to Jefferson
Junior High on a straight line measurement is how far?
A From elementary school building to junior high?
Q From Kimberly Park Elementary School building to
Jefferson Junior High School building.
A A little bit more than three and a half miles.
Three and a half miles.
Q Three and a half miles, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, let's take a look at your
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proposal for assigning children to Reynolds Senior High
School and to Wiley Junior High, Paisley Junior High, and
Dalton Junior High, which you show on your plan on page 20
as the feeders for Reynolds Senior High.
A Yes, sir.
Q You would assign children from what school or
schools to Wiley Junior High?
A To Wiley Junior High would be assigned the Brunson
students, and also I must admit I discovered an error and
if you would not mind adding, Mr. Womble and Your Honor,
to the junior high another feeder group, Group No. 5 in part,
Group No. 5 in part to Wiley Junior High alongside Group D,
to Wiley Junior High. I had that on my original copy.
Q How many?
A That would be approximately 644 in Group 5 in
part, and then the other part of Group 5, as you see, goes
to Dalton and then feeds on into Reynolds. I’m sorry about
that, about that omission.
Q So you would propose to send to Wiley Junior
High all of the children in the Brunson Elementary School
area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which are currently assigned to that school,
aren't they?
A I believe that's right.
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And in addition to that then you would send 6440
children from the Bolton School area—
A Yes, sir.
Q And Bolton School and Dalton Junior High School
adjoin each other, don't they?
A Yes, sir, virtually. And some of them are going
to Dalton.
Q In other words, you would divide the Dalton
Junior High area on your plan between Dalton and Wiley, is
that correct?
A I divide Group 5 elementary between Dalton and
Wiley. There isn't room enough for all of them going.
0 Your Group 5 includes the children in the Bolton
Elementary area?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Bolton Elementary area is in the southwest
part of the city?
A Yes, sir.
Q North Elementary, which is in the northern part
of the city—
A Yes, it's part of Group 5.
Q And South Fork, which is in the west extending
outside of the city - partially in the city and partially
outside of the city?
A Yes, still part of that Group 5 elementary grouping;
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Q Now» at the Present time, the South Fork children
all go to Southwest Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under your plan, they would all be switched so
that some of them would be sent to Dalton Junior High and
some of them would be sent to Wiley Junior High?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the North children. North Elementary children,
who now go to Hanes Junior High which is located immediately
north of the North Elementary area_
A Yes, sir.
Q Would be assigned to— some of those children
would be sent to Wiley and some of those children would be
sent down to Dalton?
A That's right, sir.
Q Both of which schools are farther away from the
North Elementary area than Hanes Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the third junior high school in your feeder
pattern for Reynolds Senior High School is the Paisley
'■^^or High School, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And under your plan, you would send to Paisley
Junior High School part of the children from Moore, Whitaker,
they feed together into junior high.
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Sherwood Forest, Speas, Lowrance and Kimberly Park?
A Yes. That's the third receiving Junior high for
the Group C elementary grouping.
Q Nov/, the children in the Lowrance area all live
closer to Hanes Junior High School than they do to Paisley,
don't they?
A Yes. About - I'd say - from building to building
it's about a mile and a half to Lowrance building, and next
door from Lowrance to Hanes.
G And the children who under your plan would be
assigned from Moore Elementary School district to Paisley
Junior High School would go right by Wiley Junior High
School on the way to Paisley, wouldn't they?
A If they are assigned in that geographical area
to Paisley, in order to travel the route they may go by
Wiley.
0. There v/ill also be students in the Moore area
going to Paisley. That's what I'm talking about - I’m
talking now about the students from the Moore Elementary
School area who are assigned under your plan to Paisley.
A Yes, sir.
Q They go right by Wiley on the way to Paisley,
don't they?
A Aren’t some of them also assigned to Paisley?
Some from Moore would be going to Paisley and some would be
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
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going to Wiley, isn't that correct? Your statement, of
course is true. Some from Moore will be walking by, riding
by or getting by Paisley.
0 You mean going by Wiley to get to Paisley?
A Yes. Some of them may be stopping at Wiley.
So that the children in the Moore area going to
school, some of them would stop off at Wiley and others
would have to go on from there to Paisley under your plan?
A Yes, that group of elementary schools feeds more
than one junior high.
Q And Wiley would be considerably closer for most
of the Whitaker School children than Paisley, won't it?
A Yes. I don't know about your adverb - you said
considerably closer? To Paisley it's about a mile and a
half, and from Whitaker to Wiley a little less than a mile
and a half on a direct line.
Q But this is where you got the children that you
would have to skirt around, and I believe Mr. Ward testified
about a half a mile distance to get to Paisley, didn't he?
A Yes. On a direct line it's about that.
Q Now, for the Sherwood Forest Elementary area
children who are sent to Paisley, those children are located
closer to Jefferson Junior High School than they are to
Paisley, aren't they?
A And some of them, of course, will be going to
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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Jefferson Junior High School.
Q You would send some of those children in that area
to Paisley, wouldn't you?
A Very possibly.
0 Doesn't your plan call for that?
A My plan calls for it by grouping, and I cannot
swear that there will be a half a dozen or a hundred from
the particular Sherwood Forest area. All I can swear to is
that there v/ill be a total number from the total Group C
going to the proper junior highs as indicated.
Q In other words, what you are saying is that under
your plan any children who are in the Sherwood Forest area
who are assigned to Paisley would have further to go to get
to Paisley than to Jefferson?
A Of course, if they were assigned to Paisley
obviously yes. All I am saying is that I cannot swear that
there will be many, few or how many.
Q You just don't know that?
A I just don't know that.
Q And you can't tell us?
A I know total numbers, but I don't know precise
pupil locations.
Q Which gets back to a statement which you pre
viously made that you cannot by geographic zones— what
geographic zones would be created for the assignments in
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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high school areas.
A Within the major groupings; I can't tell you.
Within the grouping I can't tell you precisely.
Q Now, Dr. Larsen, let's turn to West Senior High
School proposal, and on this, if you will please, prepare
to mark on this overlay, Defendants' Exhibit 47, the lines
showing the feeder pattern that you proposed in the manner
similar to what you've done for some of the other schools
in red.
A Group 7 elementary schools consisting of Lewis
ville, Vienna, and the third one was the 14th Street School.
These schools, Group 7, will be feeding the Southwest Junior
High School. Southwest Junior High School then in turn
would feed the West Senior High School.
Q It would be located there where the Southwest
Junior High is located?
A Yes, it's virtually the same site. The Group 6
elementary schools in part will be feeding Dalton Junior
High. These are the Griffith, Clemmons and Brown combina
tion. That Dalton Junior High there, that feeds West,
and that is the western sector of the district.
Q In a straight line, what is the distance from
14th Street to Southwest, the 14th Street School to Southwest
Junior High?
your feeder pattern then for the junior high and senior
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O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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A About six and a half miles - about ten miles.
Q About ten miles?
A Yes.
It's about ten miles from the 14th Street School
to Southwest Junior High School, a straight line measure
ment, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the distance from Brown Elementary to Southwesl
Junior High would be approximately how many miles?
Very similar, is it not? A little less perhaps.
Nine.
Q About nine miles?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Are part of them from Brown going to
Southwest, too?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. That's part of the Group
6 elementary.
THE COURT: Oh, I see. And that distance was how
much?
THE WITNESS: Nine miles.
THE COURT: Nine.
Q (By Mr. Womble) Now, at the present time, the
children living in the 14th Street district live within
about a half a mile of the 14th Street School, don't they?
A Yes, sir. It's a small geographic district.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q
Kennedy
And all of them live within a mile and a half of
Junior High School to which they are assigned?
A I believe that’s correct.
Q And they all live within about a half a mile of
Atkins High School to which they are presently assigned?
A That's correct.
Q And under your plan, the children in the 14th
Street Elementary School attendance area would attend school
in that area only two years out of the twelve years they
would be in the public school system, is that right?
A That's correct. By area, you mean present attend
ance area?
Q Yes. That would be for the fifth and sixth
grades?
A That's right.
Q From the first through the fourth grades, they
would be sent ten miles or more to either Lewisville or
Vienna Elementary School, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q For the junior high and high school years, they
would be sent about ten miles or so to Southwest Junior
High and West Senior High?
A Yes, sir. They are part of that Group 7.
Q And at the present time, the children in the Brown
Elementary School district live within a mile of school,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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don't they?
A I believe that's correct.
d And they all live within a mile of Kennedy
Junior High School to which they are assigned?
A Yes, sir, it's a very densely populated area.
And they all live within a mile or a little over
a mile from Atkins High School, don't they, to which they
are presently assigned?
A Yes, sir.
Q And under your plan, those children in the Brown
Elementary area again would attend school within that area
for only two of the twelve years that they would be in the
public schools?
A That's correct.
Q That would be the fifth and sixth grades?
A That's right.
0 The rest of the time they would either be assigned--
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I object to that.
That's repetitive; we've Just been over that.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled. Let's get
along, Mr. Womble.
0 (By Mr. Womble) They would either be assigned to
Griffith Elementary School, which is several miles to the
south, or to Clemmons Elementary School, which is about ten
miles away, for the first through the fourth grades—
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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A Yes.
Q Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then they would be assigned to either Griffith
Junior High School or to Dalton Junior High School, is
that right?
A Correct.
Q And both of those schools are much further from
the homes of those children than Kennedy Junior High School?
A That’s correct.
Q And then they would be assigned for senior high
school to West High School, which would be nine or so miles
away?
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe the extra bus transportation that would
be required under your plan, you testified that it would be
your recommendation to work this out through the employment
of adult drivers?
A I couldn't hear you. The adult drivers?
Q Yes.
A For the express busing, I thought it would be best.
The school express busing.
Q Now, for the school express buses, you would
recommend the use of express busing only for the inner rim-
outer rim elementary schools, wouldn’t you?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8r A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N . C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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£
S
1C
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•1686-
Yes, with the addition of Group C of the middle
You will recall I combined it in basically the same
inner as I did the inner city-outer rim Group C.
0 Under your plan, would you use express busing
o r the Group C operation?
A Yes. In the appendix of the plan, I have indi-
ated that. Because of the distances and because of physical|
operation, I suggest these schools be paired in the same
anner as the school combinations in the inner city-outer
im groupings, and I would suppose or would suggest express
using when and where needed here, based upon an analysis
ry the Board.
1 You would consider it reasonable, would you not,
•o expect to have to pay as much as $15.00 or so a day for
m ad\ilt driver to operate those buses?
A I can't testify to that, Mr. Worable. I don't know
tfhat the rates are.
Q You wouldn't expect it to cost any less than that,
tfould you?
A I just don't know.
q Mow, what does it cost for the employment of
adult bus drivers in Rhode Island?
A I don't know. It depends upon hours and a number
of things. I don't know.
? Dr. Larsen, as you have explained and illustrated
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
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1
your plan, it's true, is it not, that it would make it much
more expensive and much more difficult for parents to attend
F.T.A. meetings and to visit with principals and teachers
about their children under your plan than under the present
plan because of the distances involved?
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection. I object, Your Honor,
and submit that this is not relevant or material.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A If a parent has to travel several miles rather
than a mile, it would cost more in gasoline and time.
Q And that would be true under your plan, wouldn’t
it?
A Because the school his children would attend
would be further away from home than he now attends in most
cases.
Q And it would also make it more difficult because
of distance and time required for travel for a child to
participate in extra-curricular activities or for a child
to stay in after school hours to receive personal instruction
or make up work, or even to stay in for punishment, than it
is now. Isn't that right?
A Your word was "difficult”, I believe, was it not?
Q It would be more time consuming or expensive,
more difficult to make arrangements?
A I would say it would be more difficult to make
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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arrangements, yes, sir. But the other I cannot really say
0 You would agree it would be more time-consuming,
wouldn't you?
A In what way, Mr. Womble? For which aspect are
you speaking of? For after school activities?
U Yes.
A You mean it would take him longer to get home
after after-school activities? This is true.
0. Yes.
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you as an educator approve of the use of
non-graded work where it can be done with children in the
elementary schools, so that they move at their own pace
through the first six years?
A I am reading further research on non-gradedness.
We don't really know yet whether it has educational advan
tages or disadvantages. As an educator, I cannot under oath
say it is better or not better.
Q If it should be found to be educationally sound,
your proposal would restrict the use of that teaching method
to the extent that your plan sends some children to one
school through fourth grade and another school to fifth and
sixth grades, would it not?
A I know several schools that are non-graded, one
through four, and this could be done of course here. And
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P H O NE : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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then non-grade the five and six school, too.
0 But of course it would not he possible to run it
through the elementary school system as a whole?
A The trend perhaps of non-gradedness is one through
four so far.
Q Under your plan, Dr. Larsen, from the standpoint
of transportation alone, you are putting— the greatest of
your plan would put the greatest burden on the young black
child, would it not?
A The burden of having to ride a bus for a longer
period of time?
Q Yes.
A The one through four students in the present
seven inner city black schools will be attending grades one
through four in the outer rim. This is true. Whereas the
outer rim children will attend the inner city schools in
grades five and six. It’s two-thirds to one-third.
Q And the children that you are requiring under
your plan to travel the long distances at ages 6, 7, 8 and
9 are in the so-called poverty areas of the this community,
aren't they?
A From my limited knowledge of the sociological -
social economics of the community, it would seem that the
inner city area that you pointed out would be less affluent,
sure.iy. I'm not saying it's the only poor area in the city,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
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and I'm sure you're not saying that either.
Q You have had access to the exhibits that the
plaintiffs have put into evidence, haven't you?
A I have seen some of them, yes, sir.
A Well, generally speaking, your answer to my
question would be yes, wouldn't it?
A This would be one of the poorer areas of the city,
yes, sir.
Q Now, insofar as the comparison of your plan with
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education is con
cerned, under both plans Anderson Senior High School would
be closed, wouldn't it, as a senior high school?
A As a senior high school, yes, sir.
Q And that school, Anderson, would be retained and
operated as a junior high school?
A Yes, sir.
Q That would be true under your plan and under the
Board of Education plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Also under your plan and the Board of Education
plan, Carver would be closed as an elementary school?
A Yes, sir.
Q And generally speaking, under both plans greater
integration is achieved in Petree and in Prince Ibraham,
Mineral Springs and Oak Summit, through the closing of Carver
G R A H A M E R L A C H C R & A S S O C I A T E *
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C.
P H O N E : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Elementary School?
A As I recall, the Carver Elementary students are
absorbed— who live in that attendance area are absorbed
in these schools you mentioned more or less the same in
both plans. I don't remember the details in both plans.
Q And under both plans only one school operation is
retained at Carver in the sense that under your plan you
would retain it as a senior high school, and under the
Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education plan it
would be retained as a Junior high school?
A I think that's— I know it's correct under my
plan. I assume you are giving a statement—
MR. CHAMBERS: Objection.
THE COURT: Just a moment. I didn't understand
you.
MR. CHAMBERS: I object, because I don't think
that was the proposal of the Board of Education.
THE COURT: I would have to go back to the plan.
MR. WOMBLE: Am I wrong on that or right? Isn't
Carver being retained as a Junior high school, Mr.
Ward? Yes. Carver is being retained as a Junior high
school, and Petree and Ibraham areas will feed it.
THE WITNESS: I have it here.
THE COURT: Now, your plan, what is it?
THE WITNESS: It will be a senior high school, ten
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O r n c i A L C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P H O NE : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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tc twelve.
Q (By Mr. Voinble) So the only difference is under
your plan you eliminate Carver as an elementary school and
a junior high school and retain it as a high school?
A Yes.
Q And under the Board of Education plan, you elimi
nate Carver as an elementary school and as a senior high
school and retain it as a junior high school?
A And remodel it where necessary.
MR. WOMBLE: That’s all.
THE COURT: Let me— just before I ask the rest
of you if you have any questions so any question that
I might ask will be covered. Dr. Larsen, I have the
feeling that in listening to the evidence that a
greater racial mix can be accomplished in the system
without the addition of substantial transportation as
you have recommended in your plan. In your study of
the system, where in the system and in what schools
could in your judgment the Board obtain a greater
racial mix than is now being accomplished without a
substantial increase in transportation of students?
In other words, can attendance zones as you have studied
this system be redrawn to accomplish this without a
greater and substantial amount of transportation?
What do you say about that?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
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THE WITNESS: I must apologize to Your Honor. My
charge, if you recall, was to do as total a job of
desegregation as I could, and I approached it that way.
l would have to make— I would have to study it somewhat
separately to answer your question with any degree of
accuracy and substantiveness on my part. It may be
possible; there are all different types of feeder
systems and that sort of thing.
THE COURT: All right. Now, did you in your testi
mony somewhere state or give a figure with reference
to the increase in the amount of transportation that
would be necessary in order to put into effect your
plan? Have you stated somewhere in the record? 1*11
find it.
THE WITNESS: I believe I have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You said it was around six thousand
students, but I didn’t know whether that was in addi
tion to what is now being transported or whether that
is inclusive of those that are now being transported.
THE WITNESS: I did not make a study of those
who are now being transported.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: This is as nearly as I could list
numbers what would happen if the inner city-outer rim
plan were adopted, be interchanged, and these students
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C.
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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then would have to be transported. I don't know what
difference or how much that would mean on top of
already what is being transported, because it would
affect would is already being transported to some
degree.
THE COURT: All right. Any further questions?
MIi. WOMBLE: May I ask one or two questions?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WOMBLE: In light of your question.
THE COURT: All right.
0 (By Mr. Womble) Now, the 6,025 total—
A Yes, sir.
0 At the bottom of your table 5 on page 14 of your
plan relates only to pupil transportation required under
your estimates for the implementation of the inner city-
outer rim plan at the elementary school level?
A That is correct.
Q It does not include any other transportation
that would be required for any other part of your plan,
does it?
A That is correct. And I believe it is labeled as
such. That's a good point.
Q And you do not have in your plan any similar table
for any other part of your plan?
A That is correct.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N. C .
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M R. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. PRICE: I have no questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: I have no questions.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have a few questions.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Chambers.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Dr. Larsen, the plan that you
did devise would effect some desegregation in each of the
schools in the system, would it not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you consider the plan feasible?
A I do.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: All right, sir, you may come down.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CHAMBERS: I'd like to recall Dr. Ward.
THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,
MARVIN M. WARD
having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testi
fied further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Q (By Mr. Chambers) Dr. Ward, I just have a few
questions. Is there presently in the school system or in
the city any underground tunnels or overhead passes or
walks for students to cross a major thoroughfare?
A Yes, there are.
Q Would you list them for us?
A There is an underground tunnel at Reynolds High
School. There is an underground tunnel at South Park
School. There is an underground tunnel at Brown. There is
an overhead tunnel serving primarily Carver Crest, and an
overhead bridge serving Lake View. Those are all I think
of at the moment, I believe that's it.
THE COURT: And there's one at Sherwood Forest?
THE WITNESS: Yes. And there's one at Sherwood
Forest that goes underground.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Sherwood Forest?
A Yes, sir.
Q This overhead walk at Carver Crest, does it
cross 11th Street?
A It crosses Cherry-Marshall.
Q Cherry-Marshall Expressway?
A Yes.
Q This tunnel that serves Brown Elementary, does it
go under Stadium Drive?
A No, sir. There's Highland Avenue at Brown.
G R A H A M E R L A C H I R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P H O NE : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Q Is there an underground tunnel serving Mebane and
Anderson?
A Not at the present there is not. The children
are being bused around the construction that is being
carried out in that area.
Q There was one serving Mebane and Anderson?
A There has not been a tunnel serving that area
with the exception of a short span of time during a con
struction period. A temporary tunnel was put in under a
railroad bridge and when it was determined that that was
unsatisfactory, the City of Winston-Salem and the Highway
Department have then been busing the children around the
construction area.
Q Does the Highway Department take care of the
busing expenses for those students?
A I'm not positive of this, but I believe it's a
combination of the City of Winston-Salem and the Highway
Department. I'm not sure how they have done that, and it
is being done by Safe Bus Company, the local company.
G The local bus company?
A Yes, they are doing the transporting of students.
THE COURT: Which school was this?
THE WITNESS: This is for Anderson and Diggs,
where the New 52 North-South is being built, between
the two schools and between that development.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P H O NE : 7 6 3 0 6 3 6
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Q (By Mr. Chambers) Now, for Anderson and Diggs,
these would be both black schools and black students are
-1698
being bused at the expense of the city and the State Highway
Department to get over this obstacle?
A Yes. Both of those schools have black student
bodies.
Q Now, the students going to Sherwood Forest would
be white students, would they not?
A Yes.
q And the underground tunnel would provide means
for these students to go under an obstacle?
A Under Silas Creek Parkway.
Q Now, what about South Park School? What street
are we crossing?
A Under South Main.
Q South Main?
A Yes.
Q What about Reynolds? What street are you going
under there?
Wiley and the Reynolds gymnasium. That's at Northwest
Boulevard.
Northwest Boulevard. That's between Reynolds and
What street is this overhead walkway covering for
Latham School?
A The Peters Creek Expressway, or Parkway.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R 8. A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P m o n E: 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Q You gave us at the last hearing copies of the
principal's monthly report. Do you know how many buses
serve West Forsyth?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q This has already been identified as one of
plaintiffs' exhibit; this is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 66. This
is the period February 10, 1970 to March 9, 1970. Does this
report show one bus serving West Forsyth High School? Would
you state whether or not that is the only bus serving West
Forsyth?
A No, it is not.
Q Do you have an approximate number of buses serving
West Forsyth?
A I'm sorry, I do not. The assignment of buses—
and part of the problem is that some buses are assigned to
a senior high and some to a junior high and some to elemen
tary.
Q Well, wouldn't it be reflected somewhere in one
of the monthly bus reports?
A It possibly would be by taking some kind of combi
nation or analysis of it. I think it could be determined.
I ’m not sure that I can by looking at the chart.
Q Let me show you the monthly report for Vienna
Elementary.
THE COURT: Are you looking at 66 now?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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r
II
-1700
MR. CHAMBERS: 66, the period February 10, 1970
through March 9, 1970.
THE COURT: All right.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) That shows some buses at least
stopping by West?
A It appears from the report that all of the buses
listed here would pick up Vienna students and bring them to
Vienna Elementary School and that the West High students
would either ride all of these buses or they would be
combined in a portion of these buses and go on to West High.
Now, I'm not sure that I can interpret from this report
that all of these buses do go to West High School.
0 That's okay. I just wanted to find out if those
buses listed at West meant West High School. Is it your
testimony that V/est there means West Forsyth High School?
A It appears that they do from the report.
Q I show you also the monthly report for South Fork.
A Yes.
Q That also lists V/est. Would these buses stop at
’West Forsyth?
A All or a portion of them would.
Q Looking at the Lewisville Elementary report, it
shows I believe three trips, does it not?
A Looking at the Lewisville, it appears that six of
the buses do travel all the way to West. They go to
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Lewisville, Southwest and to West.
Q Okay. Do you know the number of students being
transported by bus today in North Carolina?
A No, sir, I do not.
< Do you know whether the percentage of students
being transported in North Carolina is approximately 54 or
55 percent?
A No, sir, I do not.
THE COURT: Are you making a statement, Mr.
Chambers, that approximately 54 percent of all students
are transported today?
MR. CHAMBERS: In North Carolina that's true.
THE COURT: In North Carolina.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, is there an under
ground tunnel for students at Stadium Drive at Bruce Street
for students going to Mebane and Anderson Schools?
A No, there is not. Mebane and Anderson are within
a block of each other and on the same side of the street.
I don't believe there is any tunnel there in that connection.
I can't think of one if there is.
Q Your testimony is that you do not know offhand?
A I do not know offhand of one.
Q Just one final question, Mr. Ward. Is there an
evaluation done by a principal or supervisor of each teacher
in the system each year?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P H O N E : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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A There may be an evaluation done. There is no
formal evaluation done and no report to the central office.
Q And no report to the central office?
A That is correct.
Q And you issue no instructions to principals or
supervisors to make periodic or annual evaluations of teacher;
A Principals do evaluate teachers, but we do not
have a formal evaluation of teachers required of all teachers
each year.
Q Nov/, you send out prior to the end of each year a
form for teachers to indicate whether they will remain in the
system for the coming school year?
A
C \-V.
Yes, we do.
Have you sent that form out?
A I believe that has been sent out.
Q Have you presently any estimate of the number of
vacancies you will have for 1970-71?
A No, I do not.
Q You haven't got the form back?
A The form may have come back to the personnel
office. If so, no report has been compiled or given to me
in connection with it.
u Now, you have previously been allowing students
freedom of choice in the school system afxer initial assign
ment?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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/»A That is true.
Q Have you been sending that form out prior to the
end of the school year?
A I’m not sure that I understand your question.
Q Do you send the form out for them to exercise
their choice?
A We do not actually send a form to the child. The
form is available in the school, and it is available in the
school or in the superintendent's office following the
assignment of pupils.
Q Have you made forms for 1970-71?
A Forms have been made for 1970-71.
Q Have they been distributed to the principals?
A They will be distributed tomorrow, May the 1st.
Q Tomorrow?
A May the 1st.
Q When are you to make your assignments of students?
A The initial assignment of students will be made
tomorrow, May the 1st.
Q That's for the 1970-71 school year?
A That is true.
G Are you talking about initial assignments? You're
talking about under the geographic plan that you have in
effect now or the one you presented to the Court?
A The one that we presented to the Court.
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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Q And after this assignment, you give them a form
or you tell them about a form that they can exercise their
choice to transfer somewhere else?
A Actually the form has been designed so that on
the back there is an application for reassignment.
Q What form? The one where they are notified of
their assignment?
A Yes.
Q Have you notified the teachers of their assignments
for next year?
A No, we have not.
Q Have you advised the parents of Carver Senior
High School students that you will not have a senior high
school there next year?
A Their students will be assigned tomorrow. They
have been notified only through the press and through public
meetings up to this point. They will receive their
assignments tomorrow.
Q Is the same true of Anderson Senior High School?
A The same is true of Anderson Senior High.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: When you say they will receive their
assignments— Now, you have Carver, for instance,
which would be changed. Now, how will the student
know about it, the ones to be assigned?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R S, A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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THE WITNESS: The students already know about it
and have been contacted by the principals after the
Board adopted its plan to present to the Court. From
that time up to this point, the principals and guidance
counsellors have been working with the principal and
guidance counsellor in these schools, and the students
are already aware of it. They will receive the offi
cial written assignment tomorrow. They will be given
to the students.
THE COURT: You mean each student?
THE WITNESS: Each individual student, the 50,000
in the school system will all receive an individual
written assignment tomorrow.
THE COURT: As to where he goes to school?
THE WITNESS: As to where he goes to school next
year, and he will take it home to his parents tomorrow.
THE COURT: I didn't realize that. All right.
Mr. Chambers?
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Did the State Board of Education
approve the closing of Carver High School?
A Restate your question, please. You mean has the
local Board of Education asked the State Board's permission
to close Carver? Is this your question?
Q The question simply is did the State Board of
Education or the State Superintendent approve the closing of
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Carver Senior High School?
A Not to my knowledge. I don't believe that we
have asked them.
Q Did the State Board of Education or the State
Superintendent approve of the closing of Anderson Senior
High School?
A No, it did not.
MR. CHAMBERS: All right.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, do you have some
questions?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. V/omble) Mr. Ward, how much would it cost
a day to employ a driver for a bus, an adult driver for a
bus?
A I would estimate somewhere between £15.00 and
£20.00 a day.
Q What expense in the way of fringe benefits or
social security and those things would there be in addition
to the compensation that would have to be paid?
A The fringe benefits of that nature generally
range somewhere between twelve and fifteen percent of the
salary paid to the individual.
Q Of the 135 black children who attend Brunson
School, do you have any idea as to how many of those are
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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there because they live in the geographic attendance zone
of Brunson School, and how many are there by reason of
exercise of free choice of transfer to that school?
A I do not know by numbers, but I do know that the
majority of the black students who are attending Brunson
are there under freedom of transfer.
Q Now, just for the sake of completeness and clarity
on the point that Mr. Chambers was asking about as to
tunnels and bridges, isn’t there or wasn’t there some sort
of a tunnel that ran from the corner of Winston-Salem State
University across Stadium Drive, right there at the entrance,
or maybe it's the exit now, of the school there, or are you
familiar with that?
A I'm not aware of it.
MR. WOMBLE: I'd like to have this identified,
please.
CLERK EVERHART: That will be Defendants' Exhibit
No. 48.
(The document above referred to was
marked Defendants' Exhibit No. 48
for identification.)
0 (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Ward, I hand you a document,
or rather four sheets, that have been identified as Defendantjs'
Exhibit 't8, and I ask you to explain what that is.
A The front sheet, which is yellow, contains the
individual pupil assignment on the front, and on the back is
g r a h a m E R L A C H E R 8c a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 - 0 6 3 6
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an application for reassignment if one is desired. The
second sheet is the School Board's pupil assignment policy
as adopted and presented earlier to the Court, number 5117.
The third sheet is a listing of schools showing those that
are overcrowded so that they cannot have anyone transferred
into it. The second list is a listing where there is
space for pupils to transfer only the majority to minority-
THS COURT: Wait a minute. Is this the list of
the ones for the '70-71 year which a student cannot
transfer to?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: I do not have that yet.
THE WITNESS: I'm going to give it to you.
THE COURT: All right. You had something
attached to the plan, some forms?
MR. WOKBLE: Your Honor, this really gives the
same information as the exhibit that showed the new
pupil capacities and whether or not they were below
the normal capacity, between the normal and the ten
percent excess, or above the ten percent excess. But
this gives the same information in more capsule form.
THE WITNESS: In this we have not listed enroll
ments and capacities. We sent the list of the schools
on it showing the ones that have space, the ones that
have space for majority to minority transfer, and the
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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ones that have space for anyone to transfer, in the
three columns.
THE COURT: All right.
A And then the final sheet is Just a receipt of
school assignment so that we will know that the assignment
got home.
THE COURT: Do you get many of those back, those
receipts?
THE WITNESS: We get most of these back, not quite
all of them, but most of them.
. Q (By Mr. Womble) Is this group of four sheets,
comprising Defendants' Exhibit 48, the letter and enclosures
which will be sent out to all children in the school system
tomorrow?
A Each student will receive a package like this
with his name and his school asssignment listed on it
tomorrow to take home to his parents.
Q Are these the forms that you were referring to
in response to the questions of Mr. Chambers about pupil
assignments for the coming year?
A Yes, they are.
Q Please state whether or not the schools listed on
the third sheet as being schools overcrowded, no transfers
can be approved to these schools, are those the schools
where the anticipated enrollment for next year already exceeds
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N. C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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ten percent of the normal— ten percent above the normal
r itec :-ipac L-v?
Vera, they are.
Q The middle column which says "Schools with Space
for Majority to Minority Transfers Only", are those the
schools where the presently anticipated enrollment will be
above the normal rated capacity but not in excess of ten
percent of normal rated capacity?
A That is correct.
G And then the third column which says, "Schools
with Available Space for Majority to Minority and Other
Transfers", are those the schools where the presently
anticipated enrollment for next year is less than the
normal rated capacity of the school?
A That is correct.
MR. WOMBLE: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ward, this is, for instance, a
situation that bothers me, and this is just one. Now,
here is Easton Elementary School with 146 black and
191 white, and Konnoak with 146 black and 191 white,
and South Park - I've forgotten - predominantly white.
Now, if I wanted to balance this up in these schools,
I can draw a line kind of this way and come down and
put more of Easton's pupils over here, or you could do
it this way. How, I don't know where the black or white
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
P HONE : 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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live in here. Now, there are areas like that through
out the system that makes me wonder if with a con
scientious drawing of the lines more mix couldn’t
come about without the busing. Tell me about that.
THE WITNESS: I'll be happy to explain that to
you.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: The blacks at Easton live generally
right here, and a few right in here (indicating).
THE COURT: So if you cut out this corner down
here, it wouldn't help?
THE WITNESS: You could cut any corner off of it
and it wouldn't help, because most of the blacks live
right in and around the school, right in here and
right in here and a few scattered out in here (indica
ting) .
THE COURT: And if you took a line across here,
all you would do—
THE WITNESS: You could come up all the way up to
here, and you'd simply reduce the number of whites. I
don't believe you would pick up any blacks to assign
to either one of these districts. The problem with
this is that the blacks live in a development right
around very close to the school. That really is a
major problem throughout this school system. It is the
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N - S A L E M . N C .
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housing pattern that makes it difficult.
THE COURT: Now, we talked the other day and you
talked about the barriers somewhere— was it 52 where
we joined up black and white?
THE WITNESS: I mentioned the difficulty. Here's
Latham School, and here is South Main Street, and here
is Diggs School, and I mentioned the difficulty in
getting— this is a very difficult situation south of
Salem here, where you have the streets crossing in
several ways. To come from Diggs to get to Latham
you would have to traverse this pattern. Now, basic
ally if you move— for instance, if you were trying
to adjust the barrier and if you moved this line
south of Diggs down probably to about this line, you
would pick up most of this is business - it's the
School of the Arts and a business settlement. You
could come this far and you probably wouldn't pick up
any more children, not but a very few if you did.
THE COURT: We11, the Board has considered - and
when I talk about the Board, you are the superinten
dent, and I am sure they wouldn't do it— the Board
has considered a plan and hasn't adopted one that has
not involved more integration than the one you've
presented to me, I am rather certain - the usual
reports in the paper and so forth. How do they do it?
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
W I N S T O N S A L E M . N C .
P h o n e 7 6 5 0 6 3 6
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Where 1 r. it; whoro did tliny got 117 Won It liy add \
tional transportation, and in what areas could they
accomplish it?
THE Y/ITNESS: Well, one of the proposals that
they considered was the closing of Hill Junior High
School as a junior high school, and with some adjust
ments in line. They gave consideration to assigning
these students, the junior high students in this area,
to Anderson Junior High, which is here, and assignment
of all of the students in this general area - from
Anderson, from Hill, and a portion of Glenn - to Hill
Senior High in the Hill building. Now, the problem,
of course, is that the building is not large enough;
it was designed for a junior high. But that is one
of the plans that they seriously considered.
THE COURT: But they thought that the building
was not adequate for a high school?
THE WITNESS: In the final analysis they felt
that it wasn't wise to make a move like that, but that
it was wise to plan a senior high - an additional
senior high - on an adequate site designed for a senior
high school and then build as quickly as they could
the senior high school in that section.
TIE COURT: Well, now, up in this area here, in
the northwest, I could see some interchange between
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Carver Crest and Moore and Whitaker Elementary and
Kimberly, but as I understand it from the testimony
here, between Whitaker and Kimberly and Carver and
Moore, that is some two or three miles. That is the
problem there? Is it that distance?
THE WITNESS: The problem is that the distance
there, and any way you make adjustments there - and
they attempted to make some adjustments in there -
that you have distance to travel that would require
additional considerable transportation. In order to do
anything beyond the elementary - the junior-senior
high level - it takes a substantial amount of gerry
mandering of lines into long corridors—
MR. CHAMBERS: I’d like to object to the characteri
zation and move to strike.
THE COURT: Well, everything I ask I understand
under the Rule is objected to, just automatically.
I'm just trying to find out something about this. Go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: And these were the problems in an
attempt to work out some greater mix.
THE COURT: Understand I don't mind your objecting.
MR. CHAMBERS: I wasn't objecting to the question;
I was objecting to the witness's answer, because it
really opens up a lot more. I wanted to point out, in
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the last hearing Mr. Ward didn't know why the Board
acted as it did, and now he has some idea as to why it
did not follow the McGuffey plan, and we will probably
want to go into it.
THE WITNESS: This is not the McGuffey plan, and
it is not related to the McGuffey plan. What we're
discussing now isn't McGuffey at all. This is just
some of the other considerations that we worked on in
attempt to come up with a plan.
THE COURT: You were asked about Brunson now.
Now, you say that most of the blacks came into that
school through freedom of transfer. Now, there are
about 135 or 150 blacks, and I have forgotten how
many whites in that school. But does the elementary
school area for Brunson encompass any areas where
blacks reside?
THE WITNESS: Very little.
THE COURT: Very little?
THE WITNESS: Practically none.
THE COURT: Are you saying—
THE WITNESS: Two factors, Your Honor. One of
them is we have special education classes there, about
six or seven of them that cover the entire county, and
there are some blacks there by result of the special
education classes, for the gifted child from grades
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-17
three through six, and in addition to that most of the
other blacks transfer from these areas. The fact is,
I believe Safe Bus Company runs some special buses
from over in the east to Brunson and Wiley and maybe
on to Reynolds to bring students who have under the
freedom of transfer plan over a period of years
requested reassignment to Brunson. And there has been
space in Brunson and Wiley and Reynolds most of the
years, and several transfers.
THE COURT: All right. I don’t know what I've
opened up. Let's see. Mr. Womble? Before I ask the
others.
MR. WOMBLE: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Maybe we'd better let you go first.
MR. CHAMBERS: I just have a few, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Mr. Ward, you told Mr. Womble
that an adult driver would cost $15.00 or $20.00 a day?
A I would assume that.
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How do you pay bus drivers? By the hour?
A Yes.
Q I believe you pay a bus driver about $1.60 an
hour?
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A We don’t have adult drivers; we have student
drivers and we're paying them now $1.45, which is the
minimum wage.
Q I believe adult drivers would be paid about $1.60
an hour?
A At this point we would only be required to pay
the adult driver - if we could get the adult driver - $1.45.
Q You wouldn't have to pay him $1.60 an hour?
A We wouldn't be required to.
Q Is it true that in the city a school bus here
would average about twelve or fifteen miles an hour from
point to point?
A I don't know how to answer that. It varies from
district to district in the city.
0 Let's take a distance of about nine miles. How
long would you tell the Court it would take a school bus to
get nine miles within this system?
A I don't know how to answer the question.
Q You don't have any idea?
A It would depend entirely on the direction in the
city.
Q Let's take any direction. Try to give the Court
an approximate estimate.
A I don't think I can.
0. Well, a school bus can run thirty-five miles an
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hour?
A The governors set it at thirty-two, I believe.
Q Thirty-two miles an hour. Well, let's take one
of your own figures. Looking again at the exhibit contain
ing the monthly bus reports, here is a bus, Number 110, that
travels twenty-four miles, twelve miles one way, and it
takes him fifty minutes. How many miles an hour was he
traveling?
A What are you asking?
Q I'm asking twenty-four miles - twelve miles, if
it takes him fifty minutes to travel that twelve miles?
A It would be around four miles.
Q About four miles an hour. For the record, bus
No. 110, which goes to Bolton School, travels 24 miles
round trip, 12 miles one way, it takes him fifty minutes
to make that trip of twelve miles. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Bus No. 11 going to Bolton School travels 30
miles, 15 miles one way, and it takes him an hour and fifteen
minutes to travel 15 miles, is that correct?
A That's correct, one way.
C We can look at all of these distances - here's a
bus traveling 50.4 miles, 25 miles one way, and it takes
him an hour and forty-five minutes to make that trip, is
that correct?
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A That's correct.
Q And all of these buses are stopping en route?
A Yes.
Q To the school?
A That's correct.
Q Now, you are talking about an adult driver all
day?
A I'm assuming that if you employed adult drivers,
you would have to employ them all day. We have attempted
to employ adult drivers and we have had no success with it.
Under the plan, we use student drivers.
Q You really don't know what it would cost to get
an adult driver?
A We have not had any experience with it.
Q Now, you were talking to the Court a moment ago
about some barrier between Diggs and Latham School, is that
correct? Did you say there was r barrier between Diggs and
Latham?
A I said there was a busy thoroughfare, an inter
section, and T showed the Court how you'd have to go by
streets from one school to the other.
Q Would you point out to the Court where that under
pass is now for Latham?
A This is the Latham chool, and the underpass is
here under Peters Creek, somewhere along approximately there.
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THE COURT: That's an overpass, isn’t it?
THE WITNESS: It’s an overpass. It’s a bridge
over the street.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) Is there an overpass or under
pass there?
A No, there is not.
Q Who constructed this overhead pass here?
A A combination of the Highway Department and the
City of Winston-Salem, I assume.
Q Could one possibly be constructed over 52?
A I’m sure it could.
Q Now, you talked about a busy intersection between
Diggs and South Park?
A No, I did not. I didn't say anything about a
busy intersection. I just said there was a business district
here south of Diggs School, and that most of this area in
here was business.
Q Now, is there any kind of overhead pass or under
ground tunnel for this street running through the Diggs
district?
A No, there is not.
Q So that an underground tunnel or an overhead pass
way, could it be constructed for getting by the industrial
district between Diggs and South Park?
A The general industrial district is about three or
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four blocks wide through that area.
Q And you say it's not possible to get the students
through there?
A I didn’t say it would be impossible. They cer
tainly could be bused across the district.
Like some of the students are being bused around
the North-South Expressway?
A Yes.
d Why didn’t you consider pairing these two schools?
A The Board took the position, I believe, that the
neighborhood school pattern was the proper one.
0 And the neighborhood pattern for Diggs Elementary
School would just lock black students in the Diggs Elementary
School?
A The black students live around Diggs.
Q And it would lock the white students in the—
MR. WOMBLE: Object, Your Honor. This is direct
examination, and there's no evidence in here about any
body being locked in anywhere.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
A Would you restate the question.
Q I'll just restate it, Mr. Ward. It would end up
with white students assigned to Latham Elementary School?
A That's true.
Q And white students for South Park?
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•>
A Yes Predominantly, yes
Q And the same thing for Forest Park?
A Yes. Not quite to the same degree at Forest Park;
there are some black students in the Forest Park district.
Q There are three predominantly white districts
surrounding an all black elementary district, is that
correct?
A To the south, that's correct.
THE COURT: Now, wait. You say there are three
predominantly white districts surrounding a black
district. Now, which— tell me about that.
MR. CHAMBERS: Latham Elementary, South Park
Elementary, and Forest Park Elementary.
THE COURT: Surround Diggs?
MR. CHAMBERS: Surrounding Diggs.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Or a combination of Diggs and
Mebane. Mebane is right here and this is the Mebane
district; this is the Diggs district (indicating on
map.)
G (By Mr. Chambers) I was Just going to mention
that Forest Park is predominantly white also and is adjacent
to Mebane, an all black district. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And it is also adjacent to Skyland Elementary, an
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g11 black hool?
up to the northern part here, we have
Lowrance Elementary, an all black school adjacent to Brunson
Elementary, a predominantly white school. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Kimberly Elementary School is adjacent to Brunson
Elementary School?
A Yes. You know all this is already in the testi
mony twice, don’t you?
0 I just want to point it out again.
A I just wanted to be sure you remembered that, that
you’ve asked these same questions. This is the third time.
I don't mind ansvering them.
0 Well, thank you very much. Would you say, Mr.
Ward, that in order to accomplish a racial mix of all of
the schools in this system, there would have to be transpor
tation of students?
A Yes, I would.
Were you here when the School Board built Kimberly
Elementary School?
A I was here when they rebuilt it.
Q When they rebuilt it?
A When it was burned down, it was rebuilt, yes, sir.
What year did they rebuild it, do you recall?
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A About five years ago.
G About five years ago?
A Four or five; I don’t recall the exact number.
Q Don't you think that it was relatively certain
that it would be all black if it was built where it was
built?
A It was known that it was an all black, and the
students were all black, yes.
Q That's about true of the other schools that are
now all black, isn't it?
MR. WOMBLE: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
0 (By Mr. Chambers) That's not true?
A No, it is not.
0 Let's take 14th Street. Right here with all black
residents staying there and you built a school in that
district ano use a geographic zone—
A The school was built either in the late teens or
twenties.
Are you saying it was predominantly white then?
A I think that was a black district at that time.
And locating a school there, you would know it
would be black if you were going to assign students in a
geographic zone, is that correct?
A I assume that that was correct at that time, that
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it was a black district. However, that was not true in the
cose of Skyland—
Q Nor of Lowrance?
THE COURT: Nor of Hanes?
A Nor of North Elementary or Hanes or Fairview.
Q Fairview. You have had. some migration of blacks
into those districts?
A This was an all white district that is now all
black, and so was this one (indicating).
WOMBLE: Y/hich ones?
THE WITNESS: I’m talking of Skyland, Fairview,
Lowrance, Hanes, of North. All of those were formerly
white and are now black.
Q (By Mr. Chambers) I believe in about all of them
you have had some additions since 1954? I’m talking about
the schools that you've Just named.
A With the exception of Hanes, I believe that is
true.
THE COURT: When you say additions - physical
addition to the school, by adding classrooms or some
thing?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honor. I
believe that’s true in every case except Hanes.
MR. CHAMBERS: I have no further- questions.
THE COURT: What is the situation, we’ll say, Diggs ,
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the capacity? Is that generally up to capacity, or
under capacity, or where? And I'm going to ask you
the same thing about Latham, South Park and Forest
Park.
THE WITNESS: You have the records there, but
without looking at the records, Forest Park, South
Park, Latham and Diggs, I believe, are all reasonably
close to the capacity. There are not any one of them
at this time over capacity. And Easton is under its
capacity at this time, I think, by about three or
four classrooms - without looking at it. Without
looking at the exact figures, I believe this is
correct.
THE COURT: Have you, Mr. Ward, made any study
of the proposal that Dr. Larsen has with any direction
of your thinking toward how much busing or transporta
tion, the number of students, the increase? Have you
made any estimate about that? Have you been giving it
any study?
THE WITNESS: We have only been able to study
with any degree of accuracy the sum effect of the busing
involved in the inner rim and outer rim schools, and
that will require a substantial amount of busing that
we have not yet been able to determine the cost, and
the cost would vary pretty substantially with whether
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you woulu have to use adult drivers or whether students
could be, because the adult drivers are likely to be
right much more expensive. It would involve a con
siderable amount of travel time for the students and
a large additional cost. Now, we have not been able
to determine enough about the remaining portion of the
plan to be able to determine what it really does mean.
THE COURT: All right. Anything, Mr. Womble?
Wait just a minute. Do you have anything further?
MR. CHAMBERS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble?
RECROSS EXAMINATION
G (By Mr. Womble) Mr. Chambers asked you if you
could achieve racial balance in the schools without addi
tional transportation. Can you achieve racial balance in
the schools of this system without completely abandoning
the neighborhood concept of assigning the pupils to schools?
A No, you cannot.
THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Womble?
G (By Mr. Womble) I believe you testified on
direct that you would not at the present time have to pay
adult drivers any more than the $1.45 you are paying the
student drivers. Do you know whether or not you can get
adult drivers at anything like that?
A I'm almost positive that we cannot. We have had
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no success in attempting to employ drivers even after
advertisement.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: No questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: None, sir.
THE COURT: You may come down then, Mr
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Let's take a short recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: You had called Mr. Ward, Mr. Chambers,
do you have any further evidence?
MR. CHAMBERS: No, Your Honor. We would Just like
to tender in evidence Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 through 75.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. MOODY: May I know what they are in substance?
Are they depositions?
MR. CHAMBERS: 1 through 75. We have introduced
1 through— do you have that?
THE COURT: Mr. Everhart is at a disadvantage.
We usually do not change clerks during a case, but he is at
a disadvantage a little bit in telling you what it is.
MR. CHAMBERS: We had introduced 1 through 61
during the hearing on motion for preliminary injunction,
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end In this hearing we picked up with 62, and we have
identified 62 through 75.
THE COURT: I'll tell you what I'll do. Rather
than going into all that, I can tell you right now I will
overrule your objection, but if you want to put it in
writing after you look through it within ten days of this
date to protect yourself on the record, I'll let you do it,
and note your objection. How about that?
MR. MOODY: That will be all right, sir.
THE COURT: I'm usually pretty liberal in these
non-jury matters in letting any and everything in, but that
will protect you on the record, Mr. Moody.
MR. MOODY: Do you want me to point the objections
then':"
THE COURT: Yes. If you object to any particular
one, just file some document stating your objection and your
general reason for it, and if I don't hear from you I'll
assume there's no objection. But that will protect you.
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, this wouldn't affect the
objection made to the introduction of testimony as to Mr.
John Lewis's deposition.
THE COURT: I didn't understand you, Mr. Price.
MR. PRICE: Has John Lewis's deposition— I under
stand we had an objection on the record. Do we need to
produce a written objection?
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TILE COURT: No. I was just trying to convenience
Mr. Moody.
MR. MOODY: I think we had objections to all that
before; I'm not sure. But I think we had objections to it
before, and rather than not interrupt anything—
THE COURT: As I recall, that's what happened.
MR. MOODY: I'll be glad as soon as I can— I
wouldn't want Your Honor - if you'd limit me to ten days—
it will take some time to go over all this material.
THE COURT: Ten days from the receipt from the
reporter of my copy of the transcript. See, I don't have
copies of these depositions. Are you getting a copy of the
transcript?
MR. MOODY: Yes.
THE, COURT: All right. I will give you ten days
after that. As I say, whatever has been presented I'm
going to let it in, but if any of you want to protect
yourself - or for whatever protection there is on the
record - by filing a written objection, you may do so. And
that is not to say that any objection on the record is not
sufficient. I'll leave that to you. You may do the same
thing, Mr. Price.
Let the record show that received into the evi
dence are Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 through 75.
(The document above referred to,
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heretofore marked Plaintiffs' Exhi
bits Nos. 1 through 75 for identifi
cation, were received in evidence.)
MR. WOMBLE: We would object to those to which
we have already objected, but we are not making any further
objections.
THE COURT: Let the record show that even though
counsel has not at this time specifically set out an objectio:
to an exhibit, that any objection reflected by the record
made during the course of these proceedings is still an
objection and no waiver by counsel or any intent by the
Court to not allow the objection shall be assumed from this
ruling. All right. Will that be all?
MR. CHAMBERS: That’s the case for the plaintiffs.
THE COURT: All right. Anything further from the
School Board, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education would like to offer into evidence
the exhibits which have been identified at this hearing and
the one on April 16th. They would be Exhibits 42 through 48.
THE COURT: Any objection by the plaintiffs?
MR. CHAMBERS: No objections, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, before we get into the—
MR. WOMBLE: Wait a minute.
THE COURT: You were not through?
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■17:
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir.
T H E COURT: I'm sorry.
MR. WOMBLE: We also want to offer into evidence
these p r e t r i a l e x h i b i t s of the Winston—Salem/Forsyth County
B o a r d of Education, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4, No. 5, and No. 6.
T H E COURT: All right. Now, wait a minute on
that. You already have a trial exhibit 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6,
don't you?
MR. WOMBLE: These are pretrial. These are the
numbers that they were given in the pretrial order.
THE COURT: So we*re going to have to give them
another number.
MR. WOMBLE: These will be numbered 49, 50, 51,
52, 53 and 54.
(The documents above referred to
were marked Defendants' Exhibits
Nos. 49 through 54 for identifica
tion. )
MR. CHAMBERS: These all refer to teachers?
MR. WOMBLE: These are policies of the School
Board and administrative regulations relating to the recruit
ment and assignment of personnel, student teachers, and that
sort of thing.
MR. MOODY: I won't object to them, to anything as
far— I won't object to them.
TIE COURT: Accordingly, let the record show
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the objection of the State as to the relevancy of these
exhibits. Mr. Price?
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, before the defendant— I
would like to move for a dismissal as to the Defendant Board
of County Commissioners on the basis that neither from a
factual or legal standpoint has the plaintiff shown any
relief against us. I've argued most of the reasons in our
motion for summary judgment, but at this time, I would like
to make a motion for dismissal as against us.
THE COURT: Accordingly let the record show
the motion of the Board of County Commissioners of Forsyth
County, and further let the record show that the Court
reserves its ruling on this motion.
MR. MOODY: Are you through?
MR. PRICE: I have three exhibits, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Wait; let me conclude here on these
exhibits by the Defendant Board and then I'11 give you an
opportunity. Do you have something, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: What I wanted to say - I thought we
settled the question of motion for dismissal the other day,
that you had temporarily overruled subject to reconsidera
tion of the renewal, and I assume that the record will show
our renewal.
THE COURT: I understand that that motion is
before me, and I reserve my ruling. Now, Mr. Womble, is 54
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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your last exhibit?
MR. WOMBLE: 53, Your Honor. There were Just
actually five rather than six.
THE COURT: Is that your last exhibit?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence are Defendant School Board's Exhibits 42
through 53 inclusive, subject to the objections heretofore
made.
(The documents above referred to,
heretofore marked Defendants * Exhi
bits 42 through 53 for identifica
tion, were received into evidence.)
THE COURT: All right.
MR. PRICE: Your Honor, the Defendant Board of
County Commissioners only has three exhibits. I don't think
we have introduced anything heretofore. All three of them
are documents which are in the record and all parties have
a copy of them. Defendant Exhibit No. 1 is the stipulation
that on May the 27th, 1969, in regard to a question pro
pounded by me to Mr. Raymond Lester Sarbaugh, Jr. - and
that deposition has been introduced by the plaintiffs as -
I think it's Plaintiffs' Exhibit 56. The stipulation which
is signed by counsel for the plaintiff only relates to the
form of the question.
THE COURT: All right.
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MR. PRICE: Defendant Exhibit 2 are the answers
to interrogatories submitted by the Board of County
Commissioners and the answers filed by the plaintiffs, and
I'll see if I can find the dates. They are the only set
we have. They were propounded on January the 15th, 1969.
The answers were submitted on July the 19th.
Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 relates to a stipulation
in regard to the answers to these interrogatories by the
plaintiffs to the effect that they comprise— in effect—
in regard to said questions propounded.
THE COURT: Mr. Price, then you will want to have
those marked? You have a copy, do you not?
MR. PRICE: Yes, Your Honor, I have copies of
them. I did not bring copies of the interrogatories. I
have copies of our Exhibits 1 and 3, but Exhibit 2 I did
not make a copy. It's fairly lengthy and voluminous. I
could get a copy to the court.
THE COURT: Well, they are part of the official
file. If you will just withdraw it as a numbered exhibit
and just state - and just offer those answers to interro
gatories into the evidence, why, we could consider it that
way. But of course, when we give it a number, then I would
look for a numbered exhibit and the Court of Appeals would.
If you want to handle it that way, just simply offer in
evidence - it being in the official record - the answers.
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MR. PRICE: I can get a copy for the Court, and
if you would mark it, it would be Defendant's Exhibit No. 2.
I’ll get a copy and give it to the Court tomorrow.
THE COURT: The only thing is that we might be
concluded today, and the others might want to see what you
marked. See, that's the difficulty.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, we have no objection
to the originals that have been filed with the clerk being
substituted - Exhibit 2, the answers that we filed in answer
to the interrogatories that he propounded.
THE COURT: You can find the original set later
then. Just mark them Defendant Board of Commissioners'
Exhibit No. 2. Well, you can locate those after. Any
objection by the plaintiffs?
MR. CHAMBERS: We have no objections.
THE COURT: All right. Does the defendant School
Board, Mr. Womble? Do you have any objections?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Let the record show that received
into the evidence are Defendant Board of Commissioners'
Exhibits 1, 2 and 3.
(The documents above referred to were
marked Defendant Board of Commission
ers' Exhibits Nos. 1, 2 and 3 for
identification, and were received in evidence.)
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say that we'd like to renew our motion for summary judgment
also.
THE COURT: Let the record show that the Court
reserves its ruling on that, and that the State also renews
its motion and the Court likewise reserves its ruling.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, the only other thing
that we have - we would like at this time to renew our
request that the Court visit and view the schools that are
involved in the issues. I believe if that can be done,
it will be of assistance and value to the Court in observing
the situation as it is.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, you and myself talked about
this before, and I know that you are sincere in that. I
have frankly on my own sought out— I haven’t been in any
of the schools - but since we have talked about them by
name, as the occasion has comesbout, I have gone out of my
way to some— to go by the area where some of the schools
are located. And the fact that we are busy isn’t the
determining factor in the event that it would help decide
this case, you know, but I read the Peabody report and I
know right much about the physical facilities. In spite of—
well, you and myself have gone through this before. In
spite of what you say, again tell me what I’m going to know
after I go out to - we’ll say - Kemersville Junior High,
_____________ _______________________________________________
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
A S H E D R I V E
MR. PRICE: Finally, Your Honor, I would like to
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which I haven't seen. What am I going to know about that
school that I don't know by looking at this evidence, and
I'd love to go - I should have been an engineer instead of
a lawyer anyway, and I would have been outside where I like
to be. But what am I going to learn by going and looking
at Kernersville Junior High that I can't know?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I think that the things
I think that would be of assistance to the Court would be
not only to see the school and the location, but also to
get a more accurate picture than possibly can be obtained
otherwise, of the distances between schools, the routes
that are involved in getting from one school area to another,
the traffic situations, the existence of open areas without
roads between certain schools so that they require circuitous
routing to get somewhere, the existence of the business areas
between some of these inner schools, and that sort of thing.
THE COURT: I will tell you, I wouldn't feel
right doing that - and I know that you are not asking me
to; I thoroughly understand that - without both sides
represented.
MR. WOMBLE: That's right.
THE COURT: And I know.
MR.. WOMBLE: My suggestion actually would be that
counsel for both sides have an opportunity to just go with
the Court, and either side would have an opportunity of
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pointing out to the Court any physical features
THE COURT: All right. Let's see where we are
here. You all don't have any more evidence? The evidence
is through?
MR. WOMBLE: No.
THE COURT: Are you all going to want to present
oral argument, Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: No, sir. I don't care to do it.
I very much object to the view that Mr. Womble has requested
of the Court. I submit that the matter now before the
Court is whether or not the School Board has carried out
its duty to desegregate as required, and if a view of the
schools becomes necessary, I think the appropriate time
would be after that determination is made and when the
Court is considering an acceptable plan for complying with
what the Court determines the Board's duties to be. I
would like to move the Court that pending the decision on
the merits that the Court instruct the school staff to hold
up its assignments of students tomorrow. We have contended
throughout that the method of operation of this school
system now doesn't comply with the School Board's duties
on the ground the Board has sumitted the plan which we
also contest, and we also submit it falls short of the Board' 3
duty. And it's proposing now, notwithstanding the pendency
of this lawsuit, to go ahead and act as though the lawsuit
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isn't, even here and make assignments tomorrow morning on
the basis of what the Board has adopted.
Now, the Court raised some concern of the assign
ments at the end of the school year when we were here on
the motion for preliminary injunction. If the Court sub
sequently decides that some further steps need to be taken
by the Board in order to comply, we are going to have some
new assignments.
THE COURT: But I don't think there is anything
that did worry me, and I was concerned that you were pur
suing me on that, because it didn't sound like you - you
know - to move these children around in the school year.
Now, that is why I'm here today, when I have been as busy
as I ever have been in my life, to try to get this one so
that we can maybe get something concrete decided before
September for the very reason you expressed. But the
matter of the assignment, except for some paper work, could
not be damaging, Mr. Chambers. A student takes home a
piece of paper that says he will be assigned to Prince
Ibraham next year, and if we change it he takes home
another piece of paper, and that's about all there is to
that, while changing the children around in the middle of
the school year, that's a right traumatic— it would have
been with me at the age of six or seven.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I can only tell the
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Court that I have had both experiences - that is a transfer
of students in the middle of the school year and some
reassignments after initial assignments have been made -
and one particular instance that I'm familiar with is where
the School Board did basically what this Board is doing now,
and in late August had to make some new assignments. It
did create and present a problem, and it's one I think we
could avoid here by merely holding up these assignments
until some indication is given the Board that its plan might
be acceptable or might not be acceptable. I don't see how
it would harm the Board - it hasn't mailed out the forms
yet - and what they're going to do is— well, one instance
I know, you're going to convince a bunch of black students
here in the system that Carver High School is going to be
closed; you're going to convinoe a bunch of white students
that they're going to be assigned to school "X*' and later
on they might have to be assigned to school "Y". Now, this
is the kind of problem that you want to invite, and I
submit it isn't worth it when we could just hold up the
letters until we have had some— until the Court has had
a chance to consider the plan. And the only thing I'm
asking - I don't think it will deprive anybody of any
constitutional right to get a letter tomorrow morning
saying— or not get that letter. The only reason I was
making the request was trying to avoid some of the problems
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that I know can be presented by some subsequent assignment
prior to September.
THE COURT: I will not take it by any admission
of the Board that you all feel like your plan is inadequate.
I have made the expression that I thought - and I got to
look at it - that perhaps some more mixing could be done
even accepting the viewpoint that the additional transporta
tion is not required, that maybe there might be some areas
that some additional mixing could be effected. What reason,
Mr. Womble, if we held up the assignment? I'm not asking
you to agree to it, and I am stating to you that I shall
not accept it— after all has been put in evidence here, I
understand you all are contending that your position is
sound, that it is the position— I would not take it that
there is any admission that you do not believe so. What's
wrong with holding it up? What would that do?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, regardless of the existenc
of litigation, the School Board of course has to continue
to operate, and the School Board has to make plans, and they
have been proceeding in accordance with the policies and
plans of the school system in preparation for next year and
can't wait until next July or next August or next September
to plan for next year. Under the requirements of HEW that
the School Board complied with some three or four years ago,
whenever that started, it became a part of the required plan
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'that pupils be notified by this time - by May 1st - as to
where they would be assigned, and that they be notified of
their right to transfer to another school. And the School
Board felt that in an orderly process of preparing for
next year, that really it had no alternative but to proceed,
if as a result of the hearing in this case there is any
modification, then as you have suggested, it would simply
have to be dealt with at the time that determination is
made. But it seems to us that from the standpoint of
creating difficulty and confusion, that more would be
created at this point entering some sort of interlocutory
injunction that would call to a halt the whole process of
the assignment of the students for the coming year.
Mix. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I'm not going to make
any long argument about it. I just want the record to
reflect that we requested that these notices be held up
until there has been some determination by the Court. It's
my understanding that the superintendent has already
prepared all the letters and there are 50,000 students to
be notified. It's my understanding that all that would be
required is just dropping them in the mail. I don't think
that would impose any great hardship on anyone to just hold
them up. B’or the record, we would just like to reflect that
we made that request.
MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Ward just pointed out to me, if
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they should be held up so that they do have to mail them,
it will cost the city-county Board of Education $3,000.00
postage that it doesn't cost them to send it out in
accordance with the policies of the Board.
THE COURT: I don't understand that.
MR. WOMBLE: You hand them to the pupils at school
to take home.
THE COURT: Oh, I see.
MR. WOMBLE: If this is held up and then you send
it out through the mail when school is closed, then you have
to put a six-cent stamp on every one, and with some 50,000
pupils, that's $3,000.00.
THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Are you all
wanting to present oral argument in this matter? Can't you
put it in a brief if I give you time to do that?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we certainly will want
to file briefs, and I think that we can be satisfied with
the briefs rather than oral argument. I would appreciate
it if the matter of oral argument could be left open for a
joint determination between Mr. Chambers and myself and the
Court. If any of the three of us— of course, if you want
us to have oral argument, you'll ask for it, and if Mr.
Chambers decides he wants oral argument, at least he can
ask for it without being definitely foreclosed at this
point. I think briefs will be sufficient.
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THE COURT: All right. Well, I hope so, gentlemen.
We are really in a bind here. I don't want to dwell on this
subject.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, we would like to be heard
on final briefs to be provided to the Court, no oral argu
ment .
TIE COURT: All right.
MR. PRICE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, on the oral argument
feature that you would not—
MR. CHAMBERS: We do not care to present any oral
argument.
THE COURT: Nov/, what about briefs and proposed
findings?
MR. CHAMBERS: Only unless the Court desires it.
Well, there have been some subsequent cases following the
Court's ruling in this case in February.
THE COURT: You could make it as a supplement to
your other brief and also any findings that you wish, you
could incorporate it with your other proposed findings.
But I v/ould .like to hear what you have to say about it up
to date. And about how long would it take you to get that?
ME. CHAMBERS: Ten days.
THE COURT: And about ten more days after that
for everybody else? That gives you twenty.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
was closed.) OFF,cal COURT reporters
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-1'
CERTIFICATE
C/'.'T, OF IIOf-TH CAROLINA
COUN’iT OF FORSYTH
I, Graham Erlacher, Notary Public in and for the
Comity of Forsyth, State of North Carolina, and Official
Court Reporter in the Middle District of North Carolina,
do hereby certify:
That on the 16th day of April, 1970, there appeared
before me the foregoing witnesses in the above-entitled case;
That the said testimony was then taken at the time and
place mentioned, beginning at 9:30 a.m. on April 16, 1970;
That the said witnesses were duly sworn and examined to
cell tie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth
in said case;
That the foregoing testimony was taken by me on steno-
mask and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my super
vision, and the foregoing four hundred forty-nine (449;
pages contain a full, true and correct transcription of all
the testimony of said witnesses;
That the undersigned Graham Erlacher is not of kin or
in any wise associated with any of the parties to said cause
of action or their counsel, and that I am not interested in
the event thereof.
Wv_IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this
’ <7 ___ day of May, 1970.
, i j - t p
43 '<2 \_g
Official Court Reporter
My commission expires:
August 23, 1970
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
WINSTON-SALEM DIVISION
CATHERINE SCOTT, et als, )
Plaintiffs S
vs. ) C-174-WS-68
WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY }
BOARD OF EDUCATION, et als, )
Defendants )
A hearing in the above-styled case was held in the Halted States Courtroom, Post Office Building, Wins ton—Sal ea, North
Carolina, commencing at 2*15 p.m. on the 17th day of July,
1970.
HONORABLE EUGENE A. GORDON, PRESIDING
APPEARANCES
For the Plaintiff:
JAMES LANNING, Esq.
CHARLES L. BECTON, Esq.
For the Defendants:WILLIAM F. WOMBLE, Esq.
JOHN L. W. GARROU, Esq.
Graham Erlacher, Official Court Reporter
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I believe you have a
motion here, and you may proceed.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, Your Honor. We appreciate
your hearing us on this motion so promptly. The report and
motion filed with the Court on the 14th of July is in
response to the order of the Court of June 25th, and as the
Court has observed, the first part of this is to report on
action taken and to request approval on the action that has
been taken.
For example, the first one is the amendment of
the pupil assignment policy. The Court in its order
directed the Board to revise its pupil assignment plan to
include a provision prohibiting a child whose race is in
the minority in a school to which he is assigned from
transferring to a school in which he would be in the majority
racially enrolled. The School Board, after giving this
very careful consideration, adopted the resolution amending
its pupil assignment policy which is attached to our report
as Exhibit A. And the effect of that amendment of the pupil
assignment policy is to amend it so as to permit transfers
where the transfers will increase integration, but not to
permit transfers where the effect of the transfer would lead
to decrease integration, or to move in the direction of
resegregation. And we believe that that is in accord with
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purpose and intent of the order of the Court.
There is attached to it as a part of Exhibit A a
schedule showing the anticipated enrollments in the various
schools based on the estimates of the Board that they have
from last year, which is the best that they have. And for
example, on the sheet that shows elementary schools, this
would mean that under this policy a pupil - a black pupil
could transfer downward in that list from Brown, Cook,
Fairview, 14th Street, Kimberly Park, Mebane, North Elemen
tary, Skyland, and any of these other schools on down the
list, but could not transfer to a school that has an enroll
ment that is equally of their race or more of their race.
So that they would in each instance, if they transferred,
would increase integration. The same would be in reverse
for white pupils.
A white pupil could transfer to a school up the
line, but could not transfer to a school down this list.
The same thing would be true then with the Junior high
school and high school situations.
We believe that that fully conforms with the
spirit and purpose of what the Court was asking the School
Board to do in its order with respect to the transfer
policy.
The second item, which is set up in Exhibit B
attached to the report and motion filed with the Court, is
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a plan and summary of integrated programs to increase contact
between the races in Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Schools.
These are, as the Court has observed from reading Exhibit B,
these are those things that get away from Just the matter
of assigning so many numbers of pupils to one school or
another - so many blacks or so many whites - and get into
the things that relate to the kind of relationship that you
have in the schools, to try to develop an understanding and
appreciation of the races so that the school will be in
terms of Dr. Pettigrew - I believe he makes a distinction
between desegregation and integration. "Desegregation" to
him is a matter of numbers and the black and white composi
tion according to assignment; whereas "integration" gets to
dealing with the kind of programs you have in the school,
what kind of attitudes you have, the kinds of things you are
doing to help the pupils of different races get along
better and understand each other better in the schools.
And it is set out in this Exhibit B to indicate
some of those things that they have already been doing.
They’ve already been working on how they expect to further
implement and to introduce innovated programs to accomplish
this objective in the school system. We also ask that the
Court approve that.
And then Exhibit C, which is attached to this
report, relates to the direction of the Court that the
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School Board proceed with the construction of a new northeast
and a new southeast high school, and the Exhibit C is a
resolution adopted by the Board to proceed with the employ
ment of architects and selection of sites for these schools,
in the hope that the bond moneys may soon be released so
that they can proceed with the letting of contracts and the
construction of these schools.
Then we come to the last part of this report,
Paragraph 4 , that relates to that part of the order of the
Court directing the School Board to reasonably integrate
Diggs, Kimberly Park and Cook, which was formerly known as
Carver Crest. Here the Board has, as this report indicates,
has worked diligently - they have spent hours and hours
considering this matter. They have considered various
possibilities and have found that despite the fact that on
a map, while it does appear just from a map geographically
that these schools are adjacent to white or predominantly
white residential areas and for that reason it might be
reasonably possible to integrate them, that it is not as
simple in fact as it appears to be on a map. And the Board
has found that even extensive extension of the boundaries
of these areas would achieve little toward any real inte
gration, that the net result would not be educationally
sound. And it has also considered the matter of pairing
and clustering.
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What we'd like to do this afternoon would be to
go ahead and put before the Court, 30 the Court could see
in moire detail, the consideration of alternatives by the
Board, the maps that we have here and the reports that show
what was considered and what would happen under each one of
these considerations.
Now, we have already had these marked for identi
fication as Exhibits 1 through 11 — the maps being 1 through
4 , and these other documents 5 through 11 - and we would
like to Just go ahead and submit them to the Court and then
let Mr. Ward explain them.
THE COURT: All right. Any objection to that
procedure, Mr. Lanning?
MR. LANNING: Yes, to some extent, Your Honor. I
would like Mr. Ward to qualify them as he goes along, as you
talk about them, rather than introduce them in bulk to begin
with. I haven't had an opportunity to look at them, since
counsel came here prior to the hearing. I don't have any
idea what's in them.
THE COURT: Well, I think it would be proper, Mr.
Womble, to not Just introduce them prior to identification
of them. I wouldn't want us to get into any lengthy identi
fication. It is before the Court, and I'm more liberal
with the matter of allowing exhibits in before me than with
a Jury. You anticipate Mr. Ward taking the stand?
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MR. WOMBLE: I will put him up right now and let
him Just go right ahead and explain each one.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Lanning, you may lodge
any objection as we go along that you feel is proper.
MR. LANNING: That will be fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, I observe that you are
somewhat incapacitated. This suit has aged us all, but it
looks like maybe it has struck you more than some of the
rest. If you wish to be seated—
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, we apologize for our
physical infirmities. Mr. Maready, the School Board Chair
man, has a bad back, and I think it’s bothering him more
than my bad knee.
THE COURT: He has Joined the fraternity.
MR. WOMBLE: We apoligize for that.
THE COURT: All right.
WHEREUPON,
MARVIN M. WARD
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Are you Mr. Marvin M. Ward?
A Yes, I am.
Q In your position— is that as superintendent of
the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School System?
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A That is right.
q Mr. Ward, I believe you have a copy of each of
the documents that have been identified as Defendant s
Exhibits 5 through 11 there with you at the stand, and the
maps that are on the tripod over by the wall are marked
Exhibits 1 through 4 . Are you familiar with each of these
documents?
A Yes, I am.
(Defendant's Exhibits Nos. 1 through
11 were identified.)
q Were they prepared in your office and under your
supervision?
A Yes, they were, under my supervision.
Q Would you please explain— and were these material^,
are these the various plans and proposals considered by the
Board, and please explain the plans and proposals as con
sidered by the Board in undertaking to comply with the
direction of the Court to reasonably integrate Kimberly Park,
Cook, and Diggs Schools.
A Yes. These are the plans that were considered.
Q Would you please go ahead and explain the maps as
the other exhibits relate to the maps? Identify them so
the Court can follow and understand what they are from his
copy.
A Exhibit 1 and Number 5 of the printed material
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together make an explanation of the extended geographic
zones of the three schools in question, Kimberly Park, Cook
and Diggs. Briefly the proposal for the extension of the
district lines at Kimberly Park were to extend the lines
north and west to include the northern portion of the
Brunson School district, and a portion of the Speas School
district, through to about the center of the l&ake Forest
College Campus. This would be roughly outlined as a section
from Cherry Street across to Reynolda Road, and south to
the point where Stratford Road takes off from Reynolda Road,
and directly across to the line that separates Kimberly
Park and Cook. And with that proposal of this extended
district from Brunson, the northern portion, in the south
eastern tip of the Speas district, you would add about forty
students from Brunson and about sixty from Speas to the
Kimberly Park district. And there would give you about 100
white pupils there in that area, and that added to the total
number of students in Kimberly Park - if we moved approxi
mately 200 students who live Just outside the district and
who are now attending Kimberly Park, if they were moved out
that would leave you a total of about 691 pupils in the
Kimberly district, of which 100 would be white.
Q That's explained on page 2 of Exhibit 5 , is it?
A That's correct. Now, if there's no questions
about that, let's look at the Carver Crest or the Cook
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district. The extension of the Cook district were the
proposals to extend west along the boundary proposed,
cutting off the northern section of Brunson. The section
of Brunson south of that line and across to Stratford Road
and down to approximately Buena Vista and Reynolda Road,
and then it would cross through the district roughly and
follow Brookstown Avenue, and take the whole eastern
division of the Brunson Elementary district. And if this
group of students were moved in this section and that much
territory were added to the Carver Crest district with no
other change in the district, that would add approximately
85 white students to the Carver Crest district, to the
present 480 that are now attending that, and would give a
total of about 565 students then in Carver Crest. If there’s
no question about Carver Crest— The proposal at Diggs
Elementary School would be to extend the boundaries south
of the Diggs district,on the west along South Main Street,
on the south at Corporation Parkway, and at the west the
southbound railroad, and would add a territory a little
larger than the present Diggs district to Diggs Elementary
School. And in the process would add about 96 white
students to the Diggs division, and along with the 587
black pupils who are there, and give a total of approximately|
683 students.
Q How close would that come to South Park School?
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A Actually that line, Corporation Parkway, is about
three blocks from South Park School. Now, two alternates
were explored in connection with Diggs - possibilities of
increasing the number of white students. One of them would
have been to take the southeastern corner from the Latham
district and add that to the Diggs district, which would
have added approximatey 90 white pupil3 . Or if we had gone
west in the section— I mean gone east from the present
section of Diggs and South Park, there are approximately 50
students in the area of Forest Park that might have been
added to the Diggs district. But that, too, would have come
within about three blocks of Forest Park School. Those are
alternates that were considered in the process of trying
to make a decision of what boundaries should be considered
here.
Q Would there be room in Diggs to include those
that are in the area shown on Exhibit 1 and also to include
the ones you referred to from Latham and from Forest Park?
A If you stay within the capacity of the building,
you would have to make some choices here. If you added
this group that we have suggested, it would Just about fill
Diggs to capacity. If you added this section from the
Latham territory, that alone would have about brought it to
the capacity. So combinations of the three would have
exceeded the capacity of the building unless you use some
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kind of a proposal to remove some of the students that are
now in Diggs. Now, the cost of adding these pupils to the
district— Basically all of the pupils in the Diggs
district would still toe within a mile and a half of the
school and would toe responsible for their own transporta
tion. The same thing would toe true in the Cook district.
But in the Kimberly Park district, it would toe necessary
to transport more students than are now toeing transported.
It would require one additional tousj the cost of the bus
would toe about $6 ,0 0 0.0 0 , and the cost of the operation for
the year would toe about $1 ,4 0 0.0 0 . This would toe to bring
some of the students from the Speas area down to the
Kimberly Park School.
q Now, in each instance it would have resulted in
a ratio of about one white pupil—
A About one to six. If there are no questions, we
will go to Exhibit 2 . This was another attempt to find a
plan that might toe considered, in which we would rearrange
zones to give different racial balance. I believe I will
start with Diggs in this instance, because it looks a
little bit better generally than as we move upward. What
we proposed here is taking the Diggs district and the South
Park district and adding a little of the Latham district to
it, and drawing lines from right through the middle of the
Diggs district with the idea that the Diggs district - and
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roughly half the people in the Diggs district would be
assigned to South Park and be transported down in that
direction, and that all of the pupils in the South Park
territory east of about three blocks of that school would
be transported to Diggs. The figures that we have given
here in this illustration are simply dividing the pupils in
half, and we did not have a spot map so we could not propose
the exact line that might be followed. Again, the same type
of proposal was made between Carver Crest—
Q Would you point out on the map before you get
away from that the location of the two schools that would
be served by each of those districts?
A If you look at this district, the portion that
would be Diggs School under this proposal - Diggs is of
course in the very northern portion of it, and all these
students would have to travel up in this manner to Diggs.
South Park is in the very southern portion, and these
students would have to be transported down this way. In
the instance of Cook and Brunson, the dividing line would
be approximately through the center of the Cook district
south of the school, and would take some students probably
within a block or two of Carver Crest and have them come
down to Brunson, which is in the southwestern corner of this
district. And the students in Cook would have to move in
from the west primarily into Cook with the students in the
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present district north of that. And again, we do not have
an exact line on that, but assume that it will be done - if
this plan were followed - on the basis that it would give
roughly an equal distribution of white and black students
in these schools. And you have rearranged the lines in
order to obtain that distribution. It doesn't look quite
as bad here as it does on the Diggs-South Park case, but
when you attempt to do the same type of plan with Kimberly
Park and Whitaker, it becomes even more difficult. This
is Kimberly Park School over here (indicating) in the
eastern corner. Whitaker is over on the western side. And
about the only way you can arrange this would be to draw a
line and show a narrow corridor along the eastern edge of
the Whitaker district to pick up the approximate amount of
students, which would go within two or three blocks of
Whitaker School, and then let all the students on the
northern and western rim attend Whitaker, and all of them
on the eastern and southern rim attend Kimberly Park.
Transportation would be rather difficult there, and the
expense would be about the same that we have estimated and
will be given in a little more detail in a later proposition
in comparing the two schools. The estimated cost of buying
the buses and transporting the students necessary there
would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $140,00 0.0 0 .
This Exhibit 3 is a proposal for pairing the attendance
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zones of schools adjacent to Kimberly Park, Cook and Diggs.
And in this first proposition, which we mention here, is
a proposal to pair Whitaker Elementary and Kimberly Elemen
tary, but in the process of doing that it would be necessary
to take the northern portion of the Brunson district and
add it to the combined districts of these two schools, in
order to make the two districts adjacent. In the proposal
there, grades 1 , 2 and 3 would be assigned to Whitaker, and
all the students in the entire district now of Kimberly,
North Brunson, and Whitaker districts, would be assigned to
Whitaker from grades 1 , 2 and 3 ; and grades 4 , 5 and 6
would be assigned to Kimberly. And the students would need
to be transported - the majority of students would need to
be transported one way or the other. Now, we proposed for
the consideration of the Board one other alternate plan,
which would again pair the same two elementary schools —
Kimberly and Whitaker. And this proposal— I believe, before
1 confuse the issue with that, let me give you the pairing
proposal for Cook and Diggs, so you won't become confused
on the different types of approach to that. The pairing
plan composed for Cook and Brunson would be a similar plan
as the one for Whitaker, in which the students in grades 1 ,
2 and 3 would be assigned to Brunson for the entire district,
and the grades 4 , 5 and 6 would be assigned to Carver Crest.
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proposal is that grades 1 , 2 and 3 be assigned to South
Park; grades 4 , 5 and 6 be assigned to Diggs. And of course,
all the students in 1 , 2 and 3 in the whole district - the
combination of the two districts - would be assigned to
South Park and those in 4 , 5 and 6 to Diggs. Now, if this
proposal were followed, the estimated total cost would be
about $140,6 0 0.0 0, of which $114,000.00 would be the cost
of the new buses necessary to transport the students who
live more than a mile and a half, and the operational cost
each year would be $2 6,6 0 0.0 0 . Now, we also proposed an
alternate pairing plan which uses the same groups of schools
but pairs in a slightly different fashion. If you use
Whitaker and Kimberly Park, again for the two schools to be
paired, this proposal calls for leaving the students in
grades 1 and 2 that live in the Whitaker district in the
district; the students who live in the Kimberly district
in the Kimberly School. And then you would assign grades
3 and 4 from the entire district to Whitaker, and grades 5
and 6 from the entire district to Kimberly Park. This would
involve less transportation and would allow the students in
the first two grades to go to school in their home district.
Now, the same proposal is made for Brunson and Cook, to
retain the first two grades in the home schools and then the
proposal to assign grades 3 and 4 in Cook, and 5 and 6 in
Brunson. And in the Diggs-South Park area, the proposal
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again is to leave grades 1 and 2 in the school in the home
district, and assign grades 3 and 4 to Diggs and 5 and 6 to
South Park. Now, if this alternate proposal was used, of
course more students would attend close home, and the cost
of transportation would not be as high. The total cost was
estimated at $6 6,60 0.0 0 . The new bus cost would be
$3 4,0 0 0.0 0, and the operational cost estimated $1 2,6 0 0.0 0 .
Q What would the racial situation be in those
schools under that plan? Does that show on Exhibit 8?
A Figures are shown in Exhibit 8 in the Kimberly
Park-Whitaker district. In the Kimberly Park School, there
would be about 436 black students and 197 whites. In the
Whitaker School, it would be 411 whites and 157 blacks.
THE COURT: What exhibit are you looking at?
THE WITNESS: I'm looking at the bottom of page 2
in Exhibit 8 .
THE COURT: Exhibit 8?
THE WITNESS: Exhibit 8 .
THE COURT: I have through 7 here, but I don't see
an 8 . Maybe I've got it here.
MR. WOMBLE: Are you looking at the little blue
pack, the little exhibit numbers?
THE WITNESS: This is titled, "Pairing Plan No. 2 ."
THE COURT: I have it.
A The figures used then were the figures on page 2
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on the bottom line. To answer the question in connection
with Cook and Brunson, there would be at Cook 335 blacks
and 95 whites, and at Brunson 192 blacks and 132 whites.
Special education would not be included in those figures.
And at Diggs and South Park, there would be 409 blacks at
Diggs and 185 whites. South Park, 192 blacks and 351
whites, under this proposed pairing plan. On Exhibit 4 and
9 , I guess it would be, "Cluster Plan No. 1 "—
Q (By Mr Womble) What exhibit are you referring
to?
A Number 9 . This is a cluster plan using the same
three schools. And in the proposal we have clustered or
grouped Kimberly Park, Speas and Whitaker, and in this
proposal grades 1 and 2 would be assigned to Speas, grades
3 and 4 to Whitaker, and 5 and 6 to Kimberly. And you would
have just one district, as is illustrated by the green line
here on the map, incorporating these three districts, but
again we have included this northern section of Brunson
ihere in order to tie the three districts together. In the
Cook situation, we have proposed the combination of Cook,
Brunson and Ardmore as the proposal, with grades 1 and 2
going to Ardmore, 3 and 4 to Brunson, and 5 and 6 to Cook.
And in the Diggs relationship, we have proposed the addition
of South Park and Forest Park as the two schools to form
part of the cluster. And in that proposal, grades 1 and 2
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would be assigned to Forest Park, grades 3 and 4 to Diggs,
and grades 5 and 6 to South Park. If we follow this cluster
plan as proposed here on the map, the estimated cost would
be $429,2 0 0.0 0 , $348,000.00 for new buses and $8 1,200.00 for
the operational cost for the first year of these buses. We
proposed one alternate in connection with the use of these
schools in a clustering plan, and it is similar to Alternate
Number 2 in the Pairing Plan. This cluster plan—
Q What exhibit are you referring to now?
A This again is referring to Exhibit 10 and the map,
which is marked Exhibit No. 4 . Using the same map and the
same districts, Exhibit 10 and Cluster Plan No. 2 proposes
to use the same identical districts that we have used before,
but would let the first three grades in each school remain
in their own home district, and would add one other grade
in each school. In this instance, we would propose to have
grades 1 , 2 , 3 and 4 at Kimberly; 1 , 2 , 3 and 5 at Speas;
and 1, 2, 3 and 6 at Whitaker. And in the other schools,
we would propose to have grades 1 , 2 , 3 and 4 in Cook; 1 , 2 ,
3 and 5 in Brunson; and 1 , 2, 3 and 6 in Ardmore. In the
Diggs area, we propose to have grades 1 , 2 and 3 and 4 in
Diggs; grades 1 , 2, 3 and 5 - 1 believe that's an error
there - it would be 1 , 2 , 3 and 5 in South Park, but in the
exhibit it's marked "4 ", it should be corrected; and grades
1 , 2, 3 and 6 in the Forest Park proposal. Now, if we use
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this alternate plan, of course the racial mix will not be
quite as great from the standpoint of the ratio of white and
black in terms of a mixture. In each and any instance,
if we use this plan, however, the total cost would be about
$207,20 0.0 0, with $168,000.00 being for new buses and
$3 9,200.00 for the operational cost for the first year.
We had one more possible proposal, and it was an alternate
to the plan that we showed you earlier for clustering Just
in the Diggs area, and this alternate would be a proposal
to group grades 1 and 2 at Diggs, grades 3 and 4 at South
Park, and grades 5 and 6 at Latham, which would mean you
would cluster Diggs, South Park and Latham instead of Diggs,
South Park and Forest Park. And the estimated cost of this
transportation would be about the same as for the last
cluster that we showed - about $118,200.0 0.
Q Mr. Ward, you have referred to the results both
from the standpoint of the pupils and also to cost. With
reference to the moneys available to the School Board for
the coming year in transportation, what is your situation
particularly bearing in mind the decision in the Sparrow
case and the changes that will be made as to pupils going
to Parkland as a result of the closing of Anderson High
School, and the pupils going to East as a result of the
closing of Carver Senior High, and pupils being assigned to
Carver Junior High as a result of the changes that have been
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made there, as well as assignments to Mineral Springs
pupils formerly going to Lowrance? What is your situation
on transportation costs?
A We have money provided in the budget based upon
the proposal that we submitted to the Court earlier, which
included the rearrangement of the Carver, Prince Ibraham
district, the closing of Anderson and Carver. We also had
money in the budget for the proposed majority to minority
transportation and money to take care of the transportation
that would be required by the Sparrow decision, if it were
put into effect in September. And we have no additional
money either for purchasing buses or for the operation of
buses beyond that amount, which really was the amount
proposed to the Court with the plan that we presented some
time ago.
MR. WOMBLE: We offer into evidence the exhibits,
the four maps and the seven other exhibits that have
been identified as Defendant’s Exhibits 1 through 1 1 .
THE COURT* Do I understand that counsel for the
plaintiff has copies of these exhibits?
MR. WOMBLE: We furnished him copies of these
exhibits at the opening of the hearing this afternoon.
THE COURT: I don’t believe heretofore, Mr. Lanning,
that the matter of the maps— it's impractical to re
produce those.
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MR. LANNING: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you have objection to the receipt
Into the evidence of these exhibits?
MR. LANNING: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Accordingly, let the exhibits then be
received into the evidence.
(The documents above referred to, heretofore marked Defendant»s Exhi
bits Nos. 1 through 11 for identi- «
fication, were received in evidence>
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
MR. LANNING: I have a few questions of Mr. Ward.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Lanning) Mr. Ward, did you read the
memorandum decision, the order of this Court, June 25th,
1970?
A Yes.
Q Did you assist in the preparation of any or all
of these plans you’ve talked about?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you assist in all of them?
A Yes.
Q Who worked with you on them?
A About six members of the administrative staff,
and we may have called on other people in the school system
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to give some assistance - principals and others.
Q Did any member of the Board of Education work
with you?
Yes, I would say members of the Board of Education
worked with us for several hours in discussing plans, making
suggestions, and things of that nature, yes, sir.
Q Did the Board appoint a committee to work?
A Did the Board appoint a committee from the School
Board to work with us?
Q Yes.
A No, sir, the Board acted as a whole.
Q Following the entry of this Court's order on
June 25th, did you receive any instructions from the Board
with respect to formulating one or more plans of desegrega
tion?
A If you are speaking of written instructions, no.
But the Board met with us to establish the manner in which
plans were to be worked out.
Q And when did this meeting take place?
I don't recall the exact date, but it was shortly-
Q Do you recall the approximate date?
A I think it was within a week after the order.
Q And what instructions did you receive from the
Board at that time?
A To prepare plans for consideration by the Board.
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Q Did the Board instruct you with respect to any
criteria to he followed in establishing the formulation of
any plans?
A Not specifically. The Board asked us to use a
variety of approaches, to give them as many opportunities
for choice in studying the matter as possible.
Q What were some of these approaches that the Board
instructed you to give?
A Extension of the school district, the pairing of
schools, or clustering of schools, to try to achieve the
result.
Q Pairing, clustering, and redrawing geographic
attendance zones?
A That's right.
Q Was any other method suggested by the Board?
A I don't believe so.
Q Did the Board advise you what it considered to be
reasonable integration?
A No, sir, I don't believe the Board came to that
conclusion.
Q In formulating the plans that you talked about
today, what criteria did you use in defining "reasonable
integration"?
A We did not establish criteria for "reasonable
integration" in formulating these plans. We attempted to
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work out as many different possible plans as we could to
achieve integration of these three schools.
Q Now, I'm indicating Diggs Elementary School, am
I not?
A Yes.
Q And the Court instructed the Board to reasonably
integrate Diggs Elementary School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you at any time consider using a satellite
attendance zone?
A We considered using a satellite attendance zone
and decided it wasn't wise to attempt to use it.
Q Did you consider it reasonable?
A No,I did not consider it reasonable.
Q With respect to pairing, did you at any time
consider pairing two attendance zones that were non-contiguo
A We discussed it but decided against it.
Q Did you decide that non-contiguous zones - the use
of non-contiguous zones for pairing was unreasonable?
A Yes.
Q Did you consider that the phrase "reasonable
integration" referred to the number of white students
assigned to black schools, or black students assigned to
white schools, or the means of achieving desegregation?
A I would assume it meant the relationship between
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the two, and it would have some relationship whether it was
reasonable or not, whether it would be related to the
distance and the possibility of transporting students from
one place to the other.
Q Referring to Defendant's Exhibit 5 , which relates
to your drawing geographic attendance zones, I believe the
geographic attendance zone proposed for Diggs would assign
100 white pupils there, is that correct?
A Approximately. We used the figure 9 6, I believe.
Q You used the figure 96?
A Yes. Are you looking at the bottom of page 3? is
that what you have reference to?
Q 40 from Brunson, 60 from Speas - approximately
100?
A You used the word "Diggs" and that's what con
fused me.
Q I'm sorry. This is Kimberly Park?
A Yes.
Q In your opinion, is the assignment of 100 white
children to Kimberly Park reasonable integration?
A No, I do not think it's reasonable integration.
Q In drafting your plan which resulted in the
assignment of 100 white children to Kimberly Park, did you
think that 100 was too many white children?
A No.
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Q Well, did you think it was too few white children?
A When you test "reasonableness", you can't just
test it one way. When it comes to reasonable distance that
you would move or extend a district to achieve a result,
then I think you've got to measure distance as well as
number.
Q Mr. Ward, could you tell us your criteria for
"reasonableness"?
A No, I don't think you can spell out your criteria
for "reasonableness" unless you apply it to a particular
situation, what the relationship it has to other things.
Q In other words, you don't believe that one could
formulate succinctly a standard of reasonableness to be
applied in any given school desegregation situation?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Mr. Ward, in connection with many of the plans
that you talked about, transportation would be provided to
the students with respect to these plans. How was it
determined the number of buses that would be needed to
transport the students?
A We asked our transportation supervisor to determine
the number of students that lived more than a mile and a
half from the school to which they would be assigned, and
worked an estimate on that basis, determining the number of
buses that appeared to be needed. Now, we realize that this
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is not a figure accurate to the exact pupil, but it is the
best estimate that we could come up with in the length of
time we had, and it's based upon about the same relation
ship we had with our present transportation system.
Q Do you know what is approximately the average
bus load in Winston-Salem/Forsyth County, school bus load?
A Well, it varies, of course, depending on the
size bus we use. I believe we used approximately 50 pupils
as the normal number that would be transported in these
relationships, in the inner city area.
Q In computing how many buses would be needed, you
figured roughly one bus for every approximately fifty
students?
A Not throughout. The transportation supervisor
attempted to take each school situation and determine how
the buses might be used, and if one bus might be used for
more than one load. In connection with short distances,
he used one bus for more than one load. He tried to work
out the system which would be most efficient in the
operation.
Q Is he here today?
A No, sir, he is not.
q Returning again to Exhibit 5 - I’m sorry, my pages
aren't numbered, but it relates to transportation. I will
show that to you. I believe it reflects that with respect
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to Kimberly Park, approximately 95 students would have to be
transported. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe you proposed to do it on two school
buses?
A Yes, sir.
Q You are going to transfer one bus from Speas and
buy one bus?
A That's correct.
Q Now, with respect to transporting these Btudents,
do you know whether they would be picked up sort of door-
to-door, block-to-block?
A Basically in the same general manner that we had
transported students otherwise. That would be reasonably
from door-to-door within the limits of the North Carolina
transportation system.
Q None of these transportation figures then are
based on what is called express busing?
A Some express busing would be involved, but I
believe it involves the picking up of students in the same
manner they are in other places in North Carolina, if they
live more than a mile and a half from school. We use
express busing in every instance we can already in the
school system. But this proposal, I believe, treats the
students exactly as we treat all other students in North
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more than a mile and a half from school.
Q Then with respect to your various clustering
plans and your various pairing plans, those students who
live more than one and a half miles from school would have
the school bus come by fairly close to their home to pick
them up?
A Reasonably close.
Q Would it not be possible, for example, to say for
the children who now reside at the South Park attendance
zone but as a result of the clustering plan would be
assigned to Diggs, all be picked up at the South Park School
and bused directly to Diggs?
A That would be possible, but you would not be
treating these students in the same manner you treat all
other students in the school system.
Q Would it not be possible for the children who
reside around Diggs to be picked up at Diggs and transported
on an express to South Park?
A Again, that is possible, but again it is not
treating those students as you treat the rest of the students
in the system that are being picked up.
Q You can do this though with fewer school buses and
at less cost?
A That's correct.
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Q These children presently walk to school, do they
not?
A Or provide their own transportation.
Q In other words, the children would be walking to
the school they formerly walked to, which under the cluster
ing plan in many instances would serve several grades in
their area, and then transported by an express bus to the
school that they are assigned. That’s possible?
A That’s possible, yes.
Q Now, do you have transportation figures for any
or all of these plans using the method of express busing?
A No, sir, we do not.
Q The transportation costs that you set forth here,
transportation costs - the most inefficient and most costly
way to transport the children?
A It’s the transportation plan now being followed
in North Carolina and the one being proposed by the State
of North Carolina to be used.
Q With respect to the coming school year, as a
result of the Sparrow case, how many children do you estimate
within the system will now be— additional children in the
system - will be eligible for school bus transportation?
A Somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000.
Q Have you ordered school buses for these children?
A For a portion of them.
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q And approximately how many school buses do you
think you will need?
A We do not know the exact number yet. We are still
working trying to determine that.
q I believe the School Board has to submit its
budget to the County Commissioners for appropriation, is
that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Do you recall how much the School Board asked for,
how much funds the School Board asked for in order to
transport children - the additional children - because of
the Sparrow decision?
A I do not recall.
Q Well, do you recall how much money the School
Board asked for for the majority to the minority transfer
provision?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q How many children does the Board estimate will use
the majority to minority transfer system?
A I believe somewhere between 500 and 600.
q Did you participate in working up the estimate of
500 or 600?
A Members of my staff did.
Q Under your supervision?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Do you recall what criteria they considered, or
what factors they considered in estimating the 500 to 600
children in the predominantly black schools will elect to go
to predominantly white schools?
A The students - the black students, I believe the
majority of them are black students who have requested the
majority to minority transfer since the School Board adopted
its policy this spring, plus the students who were already
taking advantage of this type of transfer.
Q Giving them a freedom of choice?
A Under a freedom of transfer.
Q Calling your attention again to Exhibit No. 5,
the extended geographic attendance zone, has the Board
determined that that plan is unreasonable?
A The Board did not make any final decision in
connection with any one of these plans.
Q Do you know what the Board's objections are to the
extended geographic attendance zones?
A I'm not sure I know all of their objections. I
think likely the major objection would be the «mAn number
of white students assigned to these schools.
Q Calling your attention to Exhibit No. 6, which is
another plan relying upon redrawing attendance zones, do you
know what the Board's objection to this plan is?
A I imagine the basic objection to that would be the
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distance the students would have to travel and the necessity
of transporting. The shape of the districts is rather
abnormal in that plan.
Q Calling your attention to Exhibit No. 7» which is
the pairing of the school attendance zone, Pairing Plan No.
1, I believe, do you recall the Board's objections to this
plan?
A I think the basic belief of the School Board is
in the neighborhood school concept, and of course this does
not fit in with the neighborhood school concept.
Q The Pairing Plan violates the integrity—
A Yes, it does.
Q That's the Board's objection to it?
A I think that would be one of the major objections.
Q Would the same objection to Exhibit No. 9, which
is the Cluster Plan, pertain to that?
A Yes.
Q Exhibit No. 10 which is another cluster plan?
A Yes.
Q Basically then the Board's objection to all but
the rezonlng plans are that these plans violate the integrity
of the neighborhood school concept?
A I believe that's correct.
Q I believe that the Board has found these methods
unreasonable?
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A The Board did not choose to adopt any of these
methods.
Q Did the Board deal with any or all of these plans
by resolution?
A The action of the Board, I believe, is expressed
in the resolution that Mr. Vomble prepared and presented to
the Court.
Q And When did the Board act upon this resolution?
A I don't recall the exact date. It was Monday
night - that would he the 13th.
Q The 13th is your best recollection?
A I believe that's correct.
Q Prior to adopting the resolution prepared by Mr.
Womble, Which appears as Exhibit D to the notion today, Your
Honor, had the Board by vote voted on any one of these plans?
A You mean voted to approve and present It to the
Court, any one of these plans?
Q Voted to approve or disapprove any one of these
plans.
A I don't believe it has.
Q Do you recall a formal Board meeting called for
the purpose of considering any one or all of these plans?
A Yes, there were six Board meetings called to
discuss these plans.
Q I believe towards the end of May, or in May
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sometime, the Board sent out freedom of choice forms?
A That’s correct.
THE COURT: I didn’t understand you. Sent out
what?
THE WITNESS: Sent out the freedom of transfer
forms. The School Board made its assignments about
the 1st of May and then sent forms out or made forms
available for students who might want to apply for
transfer.
Q (By Mr Lanning) Calling your attention to
Exhibit A attached to the motion that we are talking about
today, setting forth the enrollment for schools by per
centage, do these figures reflect assignments made pursuant
to the freedom of transfer provision?
A No, sir.
Q They do not?
A Those percentages are based upon the estimated
figures given to the Court in February.
Q In February?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you aware of any changes resulting because of
the freedom of transfer plan?
A No, sir, no changes have been made yet because no
action has been taken yet on the transfers.
THE COURT: You say you have£bout how many
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requests in that respect?
THE WITNESS: There are about 2,000 students, I
believe, that have requested transfer. I thirds maybe
some 250 to 300 have requested transfer under the
majority to minority provision. Most of the others are
transfers that have been requested that do not
necessarily have a relationship to that, and many of
the requests that have been made will not be honored
because of the action taken by the Court and the Board.
So actually no reassignments have been made since the
original assignments made May 1st, and we are of course
waiting for final action of the Court and Board before
these assignments are made.
Q (By Mr. Lanning) Do you yourself consider
transportation an unreasonable method to integrate the
schools?
MR. WOMBLE: Objection.
THE COURT: I think his opinion about that, or
what he thinks, would not be proper.
MR. LANNING: If it please the Court, I think it
would be in this case. He is charged really with the
primary responsibility - if the local people draw up
a plan - he has received no instructions from the
Board. He has received an order from Your Honor
indicating that he is to draw a reasonable integration
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plan. Y/hat he considers reasonable, I think, is very
pertinent to this matter.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. LANNING: Thank you, Mr. Ward.
MR. WOMBLE: Just one or two questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) I believe you Just testified in
response to a question that the Judge asked you that there
were some 250 to 300 majority to minority requests?
A That's correct.
Q And you have previously testified that it would
be necessary under the present School Board policy to
provide transportation this coming year for 500 to 600
students who have transferred from majority to minority
situations. Could you explain, to clarify that, why the
number to be transported will be as much as 500 or 600 when .
the number of requests received this year amount to only
250 to 300?
A Our assumption is that all of the students who
in the past years have applied for majority to minority
transportation would be entitled to transportation this
fall in the same manner that new students who make this
request for majority to minority, and this is why the
number is almost twice as large. The fact that a child has
already been transferred under a majority to minority
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request, or under a transfer policy which now would become
majority to minority, that they would be entitled to trans
portation Just as the people who have now requested would
be.
Q So there will be some 500 to 600 who will qualify
for transportation under the majority to minority provisions 1
of the policy as adopted in February by the Board?
A That is correct.
Q There was one question, I think, that you may have
misunderstood that was asked you by Mr. Lanning. If I
understood his question correctly, he was asking at one
point whether or not the Board took any votes on the
various plans that you have described and explained to the
Court here this afternoon. If I understood your answer to
his question correctly, you said that there had been no
votes by the Board on that.
A I was thinking in terms of official action of the
Board in relation to the votes.
Q Did the Board vote on these in these six meetings
that you were talking about? Did they take votes on it?
A They took a number of straw votes to determine
feelings, attitudes, and so forth. I really had reference
to official action of the Board.
Q So that there was an expression by the Board on
each of these six plans during the meetings then?
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A Yes, there were expressions hut not offic
action until the final action. And this is what I inter
preted his question of "vote" to mean.
q How many of these meetings were there?
A Six.
q How long did the meetings last?
A About four or five hours generally. Anywhere from
about 7 s 30 to 1 2 :3 0. Some of them a little earlier than
that, and some of them to 1 1 :0 0, 1 1:3 0 .
Q in the course of those meetings, did the Board
consider all of the plans that you have explained to the
Court?
A Yes, the Board considered all of these plans.
q And having considered them all, did they then
adopt the resolution that is attached to the report and
motion filed with the Court?
A That is correct.
MR. WOMBLE: That's all.
THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Laming?
MR. LANNING: Just a couple of questions.
recross examination
q (By Hr. Lanning) Do you recall which plan was
developed first and submitted to the Board?
A It was not submitted on the basis of one plan
t >!*»7ieve at the first session today and one plan tomorrow. I believ
g r a h a m e r l a c h e r a. a s s o c i a t e s
O f f i c i a l c o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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we submitted a tentative plan for extension of the districts,
a tentative plan for pairing, and also one for clustering.
And all of them were discussed at the first session. There
wasn't a case of one plan being proposed and turned down}
it was a case that we wanted to explore all the possibili
ties before the Board seriously considered any one.
Q Again with respect to transportation costs, isn't
it true that the state pays approximately one-half the cost
to operate the school buses?
A It is true that the state pays the major portion
of the operational cost after the original bus is purchased.
MR. LANNING: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right, you may come down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WOMBLEt I'd like to call Mr. Maready to the
stand, please.
WHEREUPON,
WILLIAM MAREADY
was duly sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Womble) Please state your name.
A William Maready.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Maready?
A I live on 1 Millis Lane, Just outside Winston-
Salem.
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Q Are you chairman of the Winston-Salem/Forsyth
County Board of Education?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long have you been chairman?
A Since December of 1968.
Q Did you chair the meetings of the Board referred
to by Mr. Ward to consider the order of the Court of June
25th, 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q As a result of those meetings, did the Board
adopt the amendment of the pupil assignment policy as filed
with the Court in this report and motion which was filed
July 14th, 1970?
A Yes, sir, they did.
Q Did the Board adopt the plan and summary of
programs to increase the contact of the races as filed with
the Court?
A Yes, they did.
Q Did the Board adopt the resolution directing the
employment of architects and selection of sites for two
new high schools, one to be built in the northeast and one
in the southeast sections of the county?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did the Board also consider the matter of integra
ting Diggs Elementary, Kimberly Park Elementary, and Cook
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Elementary Schools?
A Yes, sir, at great length.
Q How many meetings did you have pursuant to the
Court's order of June 25?
A We had six meetings.
Q What was the length of those meetings?
A Well, we generally started about 7*30 in the
evening and usually went on until about midnight or close
to midnight.
Q Have you heard Mr. Ward's testimony here this
afternoon?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did the Board give consideration to each of the
plans and proposals which were explained by Mr. Ward to the
Court?
A Yes, sir. When we arrived at our first meeting,
the staff had prior to that time prepared in accordance
with the order of the Court some alternatives for us,
involving the extension of boundary lines, the pairing of
schools and the clustering of schools, and they had some
alternatives to present to us at the first meeting. And
from that meeting on, until we concluded our meetings, we
considered all those alternatives.
Q Of course you filed with the Court the resolution
of the Board stating that the Board found that those three
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schools could not be reasonably— the integration of those
schools could not be reasonably accomplished. What was the
difficulty with the various plans from the standpoint of
the Board?
A Well, sir, our procedure was to consider each one
of these plans very thoroughly, and through the discussion
of course, the Board members would have alternatives to
each one of them, or alternatives - variations of each,
discuss all of the possibilities that eight minds could
conceive of with regard to each one of them, with regard to
the geographical extension — I don't have the map here
before me.
Q Mr. Garrou will turn back the maps.
A There were several considerations involved with
us on that. For example, if you look at the geographical
zone there around Kimberly Park, Kimberly Park is already
overcrowded - we have mobile trailers there. In order to
make room for white students, we would have to move out
some of the black students who are there now. The most
logical students by reason of their location to move out
would be those located on the east side of the district.
Now, this is a very close neighborhood here. We have very
much need, very much— or that there are some very nice
apartments located in this area and very close to each
other. Now, to move 200 children out of here, which would
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have been necessary to make room for the white students,
it would have resulted in children who ordinarily walk to
school and walk to school a very short distance - many of
them live within range of going home to lunch - they would
have to go to Lowrance School, which would be the next
closest school to them, or to North Elementary. Now, that
would have required a long walk with some small children,
over and across many streets. We had that consideration
to contend with. We had the consideration that by the same
token, by going out here over in the area to the northwest,
people living closer to their schools would be taken from
those schools - a few of them up around the northwestern
rim of that would be entitled to bus transportation! the
others would not. And this seemed to us to be requiring—
it didn't make much sense to us, to move some students
away who could walk very easily to school and create a
situation where other children would be located great dis
tance from the school. We also had under consideration the
very obvious fact that this would create approximately a
one-to-six ratio - that is, white to black. We were very
much aware of this situation, that by experience across the
country they tell us that this is not a very workable
situation, and it is not in many ways educationally sound.
It would create problems for us in an educational sense.
Those, I think, were some of the considerations we had before
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us with regard to that school. With regard to Carver Crest
or Cook School, you have similar considerations. You have
again around to the north of the Carver School a close
section. You have people who actually would be riding past, I
under this plan, almost riding past Brunson School to get
to the Carver Crest School, and we thought that this was
too much transportation involved. Although it would be on
an individual basis, I do not believe that the children in
that section - or at least most of them - would be eligible
for bus transportation. Perhaps some down in the south
eastern section might be when we put it on the basis of how
fir by road they are from the school. The Diggs situation
was particularly difficult. We worked over this at great
length. You have around the Diggs School a very close area;
this was a government housing project; it is heavily
populated; children live in a very close area. The school
was built because those children were there in that housing
project. The plan that we saw before us was one alternative
earlier in Mr. Ward»s testimony. We call it the "banana
plan", because of its shape. It would take students who
were located within three hundred yards of their school and
would be sending those—
Q That would be illustrated on the next map, would
it?
A That would be illustrated on the next map. Children
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-179:
who would he located three or four hundred yards from their
school would he going down to South Park School, relatively
a great distance. And we did not see the advisability of
doing that. We considered the same problem that I mentioned
earlier with regard to Kimberly Park - the ratio problem.
The fact that we know it’s a fact of life that many of those
kids, even if we assigned them there, would move out of the
district or go to a private school someplace else. And
the feeder intentions there— so for these and other reasons
that I am sure that I have forgotten about now, we felt that
this was not a reasonable plan.
Q How about pairing? I believe that's shown on the
next map.
A The pairing situation, we had many of the same
difficulties again. With these pairing plans, you would in
spite of all the trouble you go to transportation-wise and
so forth, you would have again a minority of whites in the
schools, and this according to the educators is not good;
it's not workable; it's not destined to last. And this was
one of the considerations involved. The expense of transpor
tation was a consideration. The consideration of taking
people away from a school that they were very close to to
one that was some distance away was also a consideration,
and I would say also that while I am thinking of it - althoug
it is not a decisive factor and not one that would cause the
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Board to go either way, I would think, but one from an
educational standpoint was very important to us - was the
operation and effectiveness of these Title I programs we
have going in some of the economically deprived schools.
The more you talk about this kind of thing and the further
you get from geographic zoning to clustering, the more you
diffuse or reduce the effectiveness of some very tremendous
programs that we have going in these schools. And this was
certainly a factor for us in our discussions. And I think
that generally speaking those principles that I have talked
about are common to a greater or lesser degree in all three
of these situations. We found it to be a pretty impossible
task in doing something consistent with the best interests
of the students involved in our view. We discussed*,in
addition to pairing, the map we have here before us now,
various alternatives to that. The Board members came up
with various ideas to try to rectify some of the objections
that I have mentioned here, as well as others. We could
find none that would rectify them. We went on to the
clustering problem - the plans, and we found that our
problems in some ways were magnified by that plan, and also
by the very practical fact that the money is Just not there
to spend to do all the things that this would require, and
it didn't make a lot of sense to us either from an educa
tional standpoint or any other standpoint, for a small kid
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to be spending all that time riding buses to fpt to school.
We felt this would represent a waste of time and money. I
would say also, Mr. Womble, that with respect to Mr. Ward's
testimony, that the neighborhood school concept - I think
it is a consensus of our Board that this is certainly the
most effective way of dispensing education to the people we
serve. However, when we received the Court's order, we then
began to consider all other approaches to assignment, and
we did consider them.
Q The geographic attendance zones that have hereto
fore been drawn for Kimberly Park, Cook and Diggs, I believe
you testified in each instance they serve compact residential
areas, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And in each of those instances, the schools are
within walking distance of the places of residence of the
children who go there?
A Yes, sir. I believe if you checked the scale on
the map there that you would find that most all of those
children live within three-quarters of a mile or less of
their school. In the Diggs situation, it's even closer
than that.
MR. WOMBLE: I think that's all.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Lanning.
MR. LANNING: Thank you, Your Honor.
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CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Lanning) Do you recall when the Board
first met following the order of the Court?
A Sir, I don't recall the date we met. I remember
that after I received a copy of the order, I reviewed the
order, and the next day had my staff check out with the
other members of the Board as to the first possible date we
could get together, and it was scheduled at the first
possible date.
Q And it was at this meeting that the staff was
offered the alternative plans?
A Yes, sir. The staff had these plans that you have
seen here, or some closeness of it, before us.
Q Well, this was a week or two weeks after the
Court's order?
A As I recall, it was.
Q Well, do you recall it as one week or two weeks?
A It was closer to one week, as I recall. Our
minutes would show that, and I'm sorry I don't have the
exact dates. When you are involved in something like this,
Mr. Lanning, each day seems to run into the other, and you
forget about which day it is.
Q Now, how many plans did the staff present to you
at this first meeting?
A Well, they were the geographic zoning plan, there
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was a pairing plan and, as I recall, there were two or
three variations of the pairing plan, and then there was
the clustering plan and there were two or three variations
of the clustering plan, and the variations refer to what
classes you would send where. The first and second, would
you keep them here or do you send them off somewhere else,
or do you go 1 , 2 , 3 and 3 , 4 , 5 and 6 - that kind of
thing.
Q Were these plans about the same that we have seen
in the court today?
A I would say that they are roughly the same. I
cannot remember specifically, but in principle and basically
they were the same.
Q What instructions, if any, did the Board give to
the staff at the end of that first meeting?
A At the end of the first meeting?
Q Yes.
A My memory is very vague on this. As I recall, we
ended our first meeting without reaching any conclusions.
We may have asked the staff to give us some more data on
the number of students involved if we changed a geographic
zone, or something of that sort. Let me correct one mis
statement I made a few minutes ago. On the zoning plan, the
geographic zoning plan, I do remember one change made in our
deliberations. I believe that when this was first presented
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to us, this southern line of the Diggs district would have
been further north, and during our discussions it was
extended downward, and I believe you will find some minor
changes such as that with regard to the other two districts.
But basically they are the same.
Q Well, how long after the first meeting did you
have the second meeting?
A I think it was the second day thereafter.
Q Did the staff present any new plans at that time?
A Mr. Lanning, you are asking me things that I do
not want to evade your question on, but we did so many
things, it’s very hard to remember when we did one thing or
another. At various points during our meetings, we asked
the staff to consider an alternative here or to give us the
figures on this thing or that, and it all runs in there
together in my recollections. It's hard for me to tell you
exactly when.
0 Did the Board ever instruct the staff to use
satellite attendance zones as one method of effecting
desegregation to these three elementary schools?
A No, sir. It was mentioned in our discussions.
Q I'm sorry?
A It was mentioned in our discussion.
G Was any plan ever developed for the use of
satellite zones?
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A No, sir.
Q Did the Board decide not to do that?
A No, sir, it did not decide not to do that, but it
was very apparent that in our considerations that it would
not be what we thought would be most educationally sound.
Q Did you think it would be reasonable?
A I would not think it was reasonable, and I think
that probably reflects beyond any question the attitude of
the Board.
Q Would the same be true of non—contiguous attendance
zones?
A I think that's correct.
Q Isn't that basically what you said with respect
to clustering schools also?
A Yes, sir. I think the same considerations apply
in different ways to the two concepts, yes, sir.
Q And pairing?
A Yes, sir. It's a question of degree.
Q The Board did consider additional plans other than
the ones we've seen here today?
A Mr. Lanning, there might have been some slight
variations from the plans you have seen here today, but not
basically or significantly different. As I pointed out,
there were some differences - we tried different boundary
lines; we tried different areas; and we even talked about
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the possibility of closing the school. All kinds of things
come up when you're trying to discuss every possibility in
an attempt - and I must say in a good faith attempt - to
come up with something that is workable, reasonable and
sound.
THE COURT: Do you have anything further, Mr.
Lanning?
MR. LANNING: No, I do not.
THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, that's all we care to
present to the Court. We do submit that the matters that
have been presented to the court both support the reasonable
ness and the propriety of the action - the affirmative
action that was taken by the Board with respect to the
first three items, and we would respectfully request
approval of those, and that this also supports the aotion
of the Board in coming to the conclusion that they did -
that the three schools, Kimberly Park, Cook and Diggs, are
in reasonably drawn geographic attendance zones as they are,
and that the Board was unable after lengthy deliberation and
careful consideration to find a reasonable alternative that
would result in a satisfactory integration of those schools,
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1801
and for that reason we respectfully ask the Court to
reconsider that part of its order.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, the order that was
entered before - Item 5 - said within seven days after the
Board has filed the revised plan, the plaintiffs will file
such exceptions, if any, as they desire. Of course, at
this Juncture, what has been filed really is subject to
some exception yet by the plaintiffs. So it will have to be
an indirect way. Just have a seat for the moment.
I guess, and I’m sure that it is too much to
expect that there will be uniformity among our people as to
what ought to be done with reference to the schools, or to
look for perfection in our own actions - and that Includes
the Court. Some while back, I got a letter from your office,;
Mr. Lanning, from Mr. Chambers who had been heading this
suit in your office, and what he was doing - as I conceived
it — was trying to see if I would consider a motion to re
consider the previous order, because it was his feeling
that it didn’t go far enough. Now, we have the antithesis
of that - the Board feels like the Court has done too much.
Somebody has to make a decision about the matter of what is
reasonable. That was the word that was used in the Swann
case. That is not a word that is unknown to lawyers. Of
course, under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, they
use the word ’’reasonable”. It has come to have a meaning.
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In the initial order, I struck - as I usually
try to do, which I think is the appropriate course - extremes
on either side bother me. I don't think we ever get any
where with extremes, and that seems to me to be a great
failing of the people of our land, that we never stop in
what we call the proverbial "middle of the road". If
anything, we always go to one side or the other and then
swing back. We never work on what I deem moderation. And
that was the viewpoint I took in this initial order. It
seemed to me that the cases are saying - the most recent
one, the Swann case - that yes, you can be required to have
some transportation, but it doesn't have to be extreme
transportation.
Where you move people out of the area there marked
in blue up north, ten to eleven miles by express bus, six,
seven, eight-year-old children, bus them up there and then
bus them back in the afternoon - they again have to walk
back to their homes, taking up a lot of their time and
involving a lot of expense, which I thought was not reason
able and I thought, it was extreme and I still think it's
extreme. But in the area there around Diggs and Kimberly
and Cook, I didn't think it was extreme and I still don't
think it's extreme to require some reasonable ratio of
racial mix there.
I agree with the neighborhood concept, but there
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are appellate court decisions that are not in agreement with
my view on that. We can't always have it like we want.
Now, we have of record the plaintiffs' view, the
defendant's view, and my view - three views. The good Lord,
in his wisdom which I accept, made us two colors. Somebody
remarked the other day that a lot of problems would have
been avoided if He could have made us all lavender. But we ,
have got to work with the situation as it is.
Now, I had started on an order in this, and I
think that in about ten or fifteen minutes I can have it
through. I'm going to adjourn court and go back and get it
together. If you wish, you may wait for ten or fifteen
minutes and I'll have Mr. Everhart bring you a copy. We
can't pass out copies for everybody in the courtroom, but
there will be copies for the attorneys. And if you have to
go said think you should, let Mr. Everhart know and we will
put your copy in the mail to you. But I think that in ten
or fifteen minutes, I can have an order.
You all are from Charlotte, and I don't know how
big a hurry you're in. I haven't called for oral argument
because I am providing that within a period that that can
come back anyway, because the plaintiff has a right to take
exception to whatever it is, but might I inquire, is there
anything that the plaintiff wants to bring to my attention
at this time about this matter?
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MR. LANNING: No, Your Honor. We filed a written
response - I believe you have a copy of it there.
THE COURT* All right, sir. And Mr. Womble,
anything that you all wish to bring to my attention?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir. I don't think there is
anything we haven't covered.
THE COURT: All right. Let's adjourn then.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled case
was closed.)
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STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
COUNTY OF FORSYTH
CERTIFICATE
I» Graham Erlacher, Notary Public in and for the County of Forsyth, State of North Carolina, and Official Court
Reporter in the Middle District of North Carolina, dohereby certify: 9
That on the 17th day of July, 1970, there appeared
before me the foregoing witnesses in the above-entitled case;
That the said testimony was then taken at the time and
place mentioned, beginning at 2:15 p.m. on July 1 7, 1970;
That the said witnesses were duly sworn and examined
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but thetruth in said case;
That the foregoing testimony was taken by me on steno-
mask and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my super
vision, and the foregoing fifty-nine (5 9) pages contain a
full, true and correct transcription of all the testimony of said witnesses;
That the undersigned Graham Erlacher is not of win or
in any wise associated with any of the parties to said cause
of action or their counsel, and that I am not interested inthe event thereof.
WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this _____ day of July, 1970.
"Official Court Repo r̂ter
My commission expires:
August 2 3, 1970
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
WINSTON-SALEM DIVISION
NO. C-174-WS-68
CATHERINE SCOTT, et als,
Plaintiffs
vs.
WINSTON-SALEM/FORSYTH COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION, et als,
Defendants
BOARD OF EDUCATION
MOTION AND OPPOSITION TO PLAN
A hearing in the above-styled case was held in the Courtroom
of the United States Post Office Building, Winston-Salem,
North Carolina, commencing at 2:00 p.*i. on the 11th day of August, 1970.
HONORABLE EUGENE A. GORDON, PRESIDING
APPEARANCES
For the Plaintiffs:
J. LeVONNE CHAMBERS, Esq.
For the Defendants:
W. F. WOMBLE, Esq.
JOHN L. W. GARROU, Esq.
Graham Erlacher, Official Court Reporter-
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Gentlemen, this matter is here on the
motion of the School Board that the order with reference to
Diggs, Latham, South Park Elementary, Kimberly Park, Cook,
and others, not be implemented, and I will hear from the
School Board. Mr. Womble, I presume the question before
us is rather restricted, and I can’t see that it should
take a long while. How long will it take the defendant to
present its contentions?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I would think that the
Board of Education's contentions might take as much as
thirty minutes or so. I’d prefer not to be limited as to
time, because there are a number of things I do want to
bring to the attention of the Court.
THE COURT: All right. Well, I presume, Mr.
Chambers, the plaintiff - the time needed for the plaintiff
will be somewhat decided by what is presented by the
defendant?
MR. CHAMBERS: That is correct, Your Honor. I
would like to note that in the response that we have filed
to the defendant's motion, we did ask the Court to reconsider
his order and direct that the Board take steps to implement
a plan as we initially decreed. I assume the Court would
hear us on that also?
THE COURT: Yes. I hope that that also can be
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-1808-
done rather briefly. We spent nine days in this matter and
have had some time since the motions, and I kind of believe
the facts are before the Court. There is obviously dis
agreement - both parties have appealed - so we certainly
are poles apart in what is believed to be necessary here,
and it would appear that the facts are before the Court and
they have been considered and fully argued and presented.
But I will not limit you, but I hope we can keep the hearing
certainly within some restrictive time. Mr. Womble, you
may proceed.
MR. V/OMBLE: May it please the Court, I think that
the Court of course is correct in that this is a fairly
restrictive in its scope. There are actually two parts to
it, as we see. One is whether or not the Court would insist
upon entering an order to implement a plan that is called
for by the Court and as filed with the Court. The other
question is that if the Court after the hearing of our
position on that phase of it is of the opinion that the
plan should be implemented, then whether or not the Court
would stay the implementation. So I think there are two
things. One is whether or not the clustering plan should
be required at all, and second - if it should be required -
whether or not it should be required pending the considera
tion of this case on appeal, or whether it could be held in
abeyance.
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THE COURT: Mr. Womble, that first question, we've
already had a hearing on that - that came back on a motion
to reconsider, and I thought that we had taken care of that
issue. That motion was denied, wasn't it?
MR. WOMBLE: The motion— of course, the original
order was to do something to integrate those three schools,
and the motion— and the three schools that were included
in the order of June 25th, I believe, were of course Diggs,
Kimberly Park, and Cook. And as the Court of course will
recall, when we filed the report and motion in response to
the order of June 25th, we at that time reported the various
things that had been considered by the School Board, and
the Board had concluded that at that time there was no
reasonable way for the Board to come up with an integration
plan for those schools that would achieve what the Court had
requested. And we had asked for that to be reconsidered,
and then the Court did deny that, and in the July 17th order
directed that a plan to cluster these certain schools be
submitted. I think that they are—
THE COURT: Also at that time, Mr. Chambers - Just
for the record - you moved to reconsider, so I think both
motions - we are thrashing over old straw in those issues.
But I’ll hear from you.
MR. WOMBLE: All right, sir. I would like to make
something in the way of a preliminary statement that I think
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is clear from the papers that have been filed with the Court,
but Just for the sake of emphasis. The Board of Education
wrestled with the directive of the Court of July 17th at
great length. The Board was unable, after doing so, to
satisfy itself that there was any way of even complying
with the order of July 17th clustering these schools that
the Boai’d could in good conscience, based upon its own
understanding of the factual situation and the constitutional
requirements, recommend to the Court. The Board considered
all alternatives which were available as to how you would
cluster. In other words, what grades you would put together,
how you would do this - whether it would be two grades in
one school and two grades in another school and two grades
in another school, or whether you would undertake to bring
children from all schools into all schools, to have six
grades in every school—
THE COURT: But Mr. Y/omble, that's the same
problem that all systems - not all systems, maybe some of
them - was necessary, but that's the very problem that all
of them are faced with under present court decisions, you
know. Of course there are problems, serious problems, and
I am sure the Board has wrestled with it, but the cases you
read about this - that is Just ingrained in this whole
situation - is that it makes some very, very serious problems
and questions. And someone will ask, "I've got two sons,
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both in junior high; they go to two different schools. Why
do we have to do this? My son is president of his class in
the school he was in last year. He is going to be trans
ferred to school "X". Why do you have to do that?” Another
parent will say, ”Well, you know they're not going to have
transportation. I go to work early in the morning. Now as
it is, they walk down three blocks and go to school, and
they have no transportation. What am I to do?” But those
are just problems. I'm interrupting you. Go ahead. But
they are not new.
MR. WOMBLE: They may not be new, Your Honor, but
of course they are very real, and they are real from the
standpoint of the Board's responsibility as a Board, as well
as from the standpoint of dealing with the situation in
practical terms for education and for parents of pupils.
Now, what was finally filed with the Court, as I
think is clear from what was filed, was not a clustering
plan that the Board recommends or approves or seeks to have
made a part of the school system here. It is filed as the
plan that seemed after considering all plans that the
administrative staff could come up with the least objection
able of the various plans, all of which they found to be
unsatisfactory.
Now, as the Court of course knows, the plan that
was filed pursuant to the Court's order is a plan which,
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following the order of the Court, would assign all pupils
living within the specific geographic attendance zones
mentioned in the Court's order to the schools that were
referred to in the order, permitting no children to go out
of their zone to some school they may have been attending,
permitting no children who may have been coming into this
area from outside to continue to do so; but taking all of
the children, for example, who live in the Speas geographic
attendance zone and grouping that then with Cook, to assign
all of the children in Speas and Cook zones to Speas for
grades 1, 2, 3 and 4, and all children in the Speas and
Cook zones to Cook for grades 5 and 6. That was done
because you have approximately twice as many children in the
Speas zone as in the Cook zone.
Then for Kimberly Park and Whitaker and Sherwood
Forest, to do essentially the same thing on a three-school
basis. That is, you would have the children of all three
zones - Kimberly Park, Sherwood Forest, and Whitaker - who
are in grades 5 and 6 going to Kimberly Park. You would
have approximately half of the Kimberly Park children in the
first four grades going to Sherwood Forest with the children
who live in that zone, and the other half going to Whitaker
with the children who live in the Whitaker zone.
Diggs, Lowrance and South Park - I mean Latham
and South Park, were then in this plan set out similarly
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-181:
to the Kimberly Park, Whitaker and Sherwood Forest. So that
all of the children in the fifth and sixth grades in all
three - Latham, South Park and Diggs - would go to Diggs.
All children, or one half of the Diggs children would go to
Latham with all of the Latham 1, 2, 3 and 4th graders, the
other half would go to South Park with all the South Park
children, grades 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Now, as I say, this was not a plan approved by the
Board. It is filed with the Court pursuant to the Court's
order. It was felt that it was of the various possibilities
the least disruptive of any that could be found, but even
so - and here we come not only to the question of whether
or not it's required as a matter of constitutional law, but
to the question of whether or not the implementation of it,
if the Court finds that it must put this order— it must
execute this order, whether or not it should be stayed
pending the outcome of appeal.
THE.COURT: Mr. Womble, do you know of any case—
I was thinking about this in reviewing the facts last
night - even after what is presently ordered, if that should
be done in the system here, there still remains a great
percentage of our schools all one race. Do you know of
any system - you have read the cases concerning the various
litigation of the various schools - do you know of any
system that has been allowed to stand with a number of school!
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without a racial mix or very little mix - something like
we will say two or three to a matter of five or six
hundred? Do you know of any school - any case that you have
read where the matter has been challenged, that the school
has been left with as many schools of one race as this
system has? I don *t know of one.
MR. WOMBLE: As far as the exact numbers are
concerned, of course there is no school system that is
exactly comparable to ours, but it seems to me, Your Honor,
that we have systems throughout the country which may or
may not even be in litigation where you have a situation
that is probably more separated than ours by far, and I
think that we are dealing here with a matter of serious
constitutional principles that are yet to be decided.
For example, the case - the Tina Deal case of
Cincinnati that Your Honor is fairly familiar with - is a
case where assuredly the Court has gone to great length to
spell out the fact that it is a de facto situation, but the
Court has also gone to great length to say that in a de
facto situation that the constitution does not require the
artificial busing of children to get them to a school.
THE COURT: How do you square that with Swann?
MR. WOMBLE: I think that Swann is another case
that is on appeal and is yet to be decided. We don’t know
what the court is going to hold in Swann, and we won’t know
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until it has gone the route. I think we are reaching a
point in these school cases where it will not now be long
before this court and other courts across the land will
have something in the way of some definite principles and
rules to go by, and that we will either find that the court
is going to base it on non-discrimination and that as long
as there is a unitary system by which is meant that no
child is deprived of an opportunity to go to a school because
of his race that it is constitutional, or we are going to
find the courts going - to me - in an unrealistic direction
of putting everything on a percentage basis and doing it
according to numbers in every school throughout the land.
And I don’t think that this more or less never-never land
that we are in now is going to be with us beyond another
year with the Supreme Court, and I think that this statement
of Justice Burger - Chief Justice Burger - in the Norcross
case indicates that while he was new on this court at the
time he made this statement, he was not new to the federal
judiciary, and he recognized that there are some very
serious and very pertinent questions yet to be settled in
order for the courts across the land — such as your own
court - to know what is required.
THE COURT: You were two years ahead of me in
law school, don’t you think though now this court must take
its direction from our own Court of Appeals in this matter?
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Now you say, well, the Supreme Court is going to meet and
maybe in more definitive lines— but right now our own
Court of Appeals has spoken, and don't you think this Court
is bound by what our own Court of Appeals has said about
this matter?
MR. WOMBLEs Well, of course, even our own Court
of Appeals - that case has been sent back to Charlotte.
They have adopted what they referred to as a "rule of
reasonableness" which is yet to be defined. And I submit
that as it has been written in that case is more difficult
to really decide than in any other given case what would be
required. Now, in the Norcross case, Chief Justice Burger
said, "As soon as possible, we ought to resolve some of the
basic practical problems when they are appropriately pre
sented, including whether as a constitutional matter any
particular racial balance must be achieved in the schools;
to what extent school districts and zones may or must be
altered is a constitutional matter, to what extent trans
portation may or must be provided to achieve the end sought
by prior holdings of the court."
Now, in this particular situation, while it has
seemed in a way that to define the system here to be a
unitary system, subject only to the necessity of doing
something with respect to Diggs, Cook and Kimberly Park,
indicated that not a great deal was left to be done in order
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to achieve a completely acceptable unitary system.
THE COURT: And the reason, Mr. Womble, that was
done, that could be indicated that is my thinking, but when
we strike a rule of reason - and that’s been criticized,
but our constitutional forefathers used the rule of reason
in the Fourth Amendment when they said searches and seizures
would only be done under reasonable conditions - so that is
not new. It seemed to me that here those areas were con
tiguous - here you had Diggs, an all-Negro school on one
side of the road; immediately across, all white; south of
it, all white. And the Cook—Kimberly Park area, approxi
mately the same situation existed. It seemed to me that
under the rule of reason - as the Court was applying it -
that that we could do. Now, I want my position understood
in this matter. I don't think anything can be freer than
the freedom to go to any school you wish. That doesn’t
shock my sense and make me feel that that is unjust. That
is freedom in the ultimate, as I see it. But I am not
privileged to apply what I think about it personally in
these matters. I have to go by the decisional law that has
been written, and in view of a case that we all know about
where they had one hundred and some schools and they sent
it back and there was only ten of one race, as I recall,
left, and they said, "This is reasonable.” Here with this
number in our system still of one race, why, it seemed to
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me that applying the rule of reason it was demanded that I
do something where these areas were contiguous and were
all of one race.
In the other areas around Brown, the plaintiffs’
own evidence indicated that the only way that that could be
done was through satellite areas where children are bused
substantially. That doesn't strike me as being reasonable.
It does the plaintiffs. They contend very earnestly - and
still have a motion - that this thing hasn't gone far enough,
but that was my view at that time in applying what we have
been given to go by.
Now, I think maybe we might be taking too much
hope in what the Supreme Court has said, and I don't think
they are going to be able to work this thing out mathemati
cally. So those of us— I hope so - where you in represent
ing the School Board and Mr. Chambers in representing and
concerned with the plaintiffs and those of us who are on
the trial bench - I don't think they are going to give us
any guidelines that we can Just apply with any mathematical
formula. I am afraid that we are going to be wrestling with
this for many years to come. I hope I am wrong, and I hope
that when the Supreme Court gets back in session they can
clarify it some, but I think that we are expecting too much
in this area when we think that when they come back that t
they are going to resolve all these issues. I wish I could
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believe that. I would get more sleep at night. But I
don't believe it will be that way. I hope so.
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, assuming that the Court
feels now as it has previously expressed itself - that the
direction to cluster these schools that had been included
in that order comes within the decision of the Fourth
Circuit in the Swann Case as being within reason - it is
still a matter within the courts' authority and area of
responsibility to determine whether or not on appeal there
shall be a stay. Now, ordinarily an appeal will stay the
enforcement of a judgment. An exception to that is "unless
otherwise ordered by the court," as in the case of an
injunction.
Now, the obvious reason for the exception in the
case of an injunction is that ordinarily the purpose of an
injunction is to preserve the status quo so that the person
who is seeking to obtain the injunction will not find his
cause effectless as a result of the appeals and a failure
to have the complained of act enjoined while the appeal is
being considered. So that the ordinary purpose of an
injunction is to preserve a status quo.
Now, on this occasion, what is sought by the
plaintiffs and what would be required if a stay should not
be granted is not a preservation of the status quo but the
exact opposite of it, and in a serious— with serious
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consequences and serious results. For example, we have
here a situation that just with these specific schools to
require immediate implementation would mean that over two
thousand children would be sent from the school that they
are now attending - and it’s estimated to be 2,081 - would
be sent from the school they are now attending within their
attendance zones to another school, which in some instances
would be four or five miles away. Not only that, it would
mean that some nearly 500 - 483, I believe it’s been
estimated - who are now by exercise of their freedom of
transfer going to school outside these zones would be
called back into these zones and assigned in accordance
with the Court’s directive. So that you would have in
those two categories approximately 2,564 pupils involved.
Now, these figures do not include those children
who- Now wait. The 483 are those who have come into these
zones by freedom of choice who would go back to their zones
in which they live. For example, a child who may have
lived in the Mebane zone and who was now going to school in
the Diggs zone would be sent back into the Mebane zone.
That would be the 438 category. Now, this does not include
those who are, for example, residents of the Whitaker zone
who now go to school somewhere else, or who are residents
of the Kimberly Park zone who now go to school somewhere
else. So that you would have something over 2,600 pupils
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who would be required under this to wind up going to a school,
other than the school they expect to attend and plan to
attend this year, and certainly in most instances where
they most desire to attend.
THE COURT: Now, we are busing some children now.
Is this 2,600 additional pupils bused?
MR. WOMBLE: Some of these would be bused and some
would not. I think the number to be bused has been estimated
at 1,971, wasn’t it? That would be about 1,971.
MR. CHAMBERS: I take it that while we’re talking
about figures with respect to the number of students to be
transferred and bused, the plaintiffs would not be bound by
the statements of Mr. Viewable?
THE COURT: No. That was the figure that was in
their report. But you said you would have to have twenty-
seven buses and they cost $162,000.00?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir. Now, this would be the
pupil situation. And then as far as the teachers go, you
will recall, of course, that last year the teachers were
transferred to achieve an approximate ratio of black and
white throughout the system in conformity with the ratio of
black to white total, and this would be disrupted to some
extent - we don't know exactly to what extent at this point.
But to show you what I have in mind, there would have to be
about eighty-five to ninety teachers who would have to be
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transferred in order to go along with the clustering of
these schools as submitted to the Court. And in a school,
say for example Speas, it just so happens that there are
five black teachers in the fifth grade. In other words,
five fifth grade teachers at Speas who are black. Now,
with all of the fifth and sixth grade students being sent
to another school, of course that would mean that the fifth
and sixth grade teachers would be sent to another school,
and this would have an effect on the— not only would it
mean that 85 to 90 teachers would have to be sent to another
school, but it would have an effect on the total black-white
ratio of teachers in the given school.
Now, along with the teachers, it would mean that
all of the pupils' chairs in some 85 to 90 classrooms would
have to be changed, because you have different size chairs
for the first and second graders, and for the third and
fourth graders, and fifth and sixth graders. So in order
to achieve this clustering, that would have to be accom
plished. And then there is the matter of textbooks, library
books - those things would have to be accomplished.
Now, those are some of the—
THE COURT: It would be a real problem if we have
to do It come November.
MR. WOMBLE: It would be a real problem if it has
to be done at any time.
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THE COURT: Right.
MR. WOMBLE: If we have to do it in November, it
would be a problem, if it has to be accomplished at that
time. If it turns out that we don’t have to do it, we
would have done a great deal of shuffling about and dis
ruption of students, to the anguish of the students and the
parents and the teachers.
THE COURT: Well, wouldn’t it be magnified? That
was the problem that we were talking about last winter when
this was all before us, was about the trauma that would be
caused our children by transferring them in the middle of
the year. I expressed absolute repugnance to that idea
from the very beginning and during the school year, and was
elated over the fact that we could get this thing maybe all
worked out here during the summer months and maybe not be
as disruptive. But when does school start?
MR. WOMBLE: It starts two weeks from now, Your
Honor, the 26th of August I think is the registration date.
THE COURT: We are not any closer than we were
last January or February to some solution of it now than
we were back then, and we are already in another school year.
And furthermore, I read in the paper that even if the Court
should insist on the implementation of this order that you
physically can't do it.
MR. WOMBLE: That was the next thing I was coming
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to.
THE COURT: Which means that the Board hasn't
done anything, Mr. Womble.
KR. WOMBLE: The School Board has at this point
no way of knowing how in the world it could provide the
transportation that would be called for under this order,
that is if it is to be provided. Now, if the Court orders
the implementation of this clustering of these schools, it
is entirely possible - in fact a great likelihood at this
point, as far as we know - and the only likelihood at this
point is that as of school opening - if it opens — the
children will have to get to school the best way they can.
THE COURT: Mr. Womble, what has the School Board
done to implement it? The usual way in these matters - and
I realize that I could be in error and read these decisions
incorrectly; apparently I read them different from what you
do; apparently I read them different from what Mr. Chambers
does - he says this is far too short and you say it is far
too much. So somebody, you know— some of us don't under
stand - perhaps it's the Court - but in any event, for
years this country has grown and developed on the idea of
following the law, and the law is what is written in the
statute books and what the courts say it is - not what
Eugene Gordon says or Harry Smith or Henry Jones who might
be on the bench, but what the court says. And you go ahead
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and follow that, and if you don't like it, you get it
corrected on appeal. That is a satisfaction that I have,
that I know that you all can appeal. If I'm wrong then it
can be corrected. I don't hide behind that; I still try to
do the best I can with it. But it would appear that the
School Board, even though this order was in effect, has done
nothing to try to implement the order by the way of getting
school buses. What have they done except say they— you
know, they're just not going to do this?
MR. WOMBLE: As far as complying with the law is
concerned, it's one thing. If it's a matter of simply doing
or not doing an act that may be called for but where it
involves an expenditure of funds that you don't have and
the acquisition of equipment that you don't have funds to
purchase, it gets to be a whole lot sticky.
THE COURT: Yes. I have represented school boards
and I have represented county commissioners, and I realize
that they have appropriations for line items. It's for this
and this and school busing. But this order was entered last
July, and I'm not indicating that's a long while back to
get ready for this sort of thing, but what I should think
would have been done, you would first have to get the school
buses - you would have to get them through the state, I
guess, the Board has to pay for them - but some move should
have been made to have tried to get what transportation is
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-1826-
needed, and hopefully - if they disagree with it - to try
to get this thing corrected. I just kind of feel like the
Board made up their mind the order was wrong - and they
well might be right - and that they weren’t going to do
anything about it. And I think the Commissioners concurred
in that, and I think at the time I entered the order dis
correct, that there was no evidence that they were con
trolling or influencing actually the matter of pupil assign-
10 ments and buildings. But I don’t think I can correct the
order now, and I don't think it was necessarily incorrect at
that time; I don’t think the evidence showed it. But the
,3 conditions have shown since that lead me to believe that
14 the Commissioners are having something to say about what
"the School Board does.
16
MR. WOMBLE: Of course what they do, they do
independent of the School Board.
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MR. WOMBLE: They are two separate elective bodies.
THE COURT: I realize the School Board is not a
tax assessing body and they get their money through the
Commissioners. They present budgets - what is it - the
fourth Friday or fourth Tuesday, or something, in July when
the budgets have to be final. Did anything go forward to
the Commissioners about extra money to do this, or just what
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missing it as to the Commissioners that I was entirely
THE COURT: I understand.
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did happen?
MR. WOMBLE: Your Honor, I think back at that
time there was just not knowing how many buses or how much
money we would need.
THE COURT: How do you get buses? Do you call
the state and tell them how many you need?
MR. WOMBLE: As I understand it, they simply
order them from the manufacturer. It's through the state
to the manufacturer.
THE COURT: What you are saying is that you don’t
have any money to back up the order, is that right?
MR. WOMBLE: Of course, they have pretty strict
rules about that. When you think in terms of the people who
are involved, the legal questions that are involved - the
questions that are to be decided on the appeals that have
been filed in this case and other cases are going to have a
bearing on this. It just seems to us that there is great
merit in the idea of the courts saying that these matters,
as far as the disruptions and changes are concerned, that
they will be held in abeyance pending the outcome of this
matter on appeal.
THE COURT: What you are really saying is that it
should be held in abeyance until the Supreme Court decides
this particular case, which might be 1972 or later, mightn’t
it?
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MR. WOMBLE: I don’t think so, not the way they
have been deciding these school cases in the last two or
three years, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Because I can hear the argument now
if they decide the Swann case, and that doesn't apply to
this system because we have a different fact situation,
well, that has merit in it. But either way the situation
goes in the Court of Appeals—
MR. WOMBLE: I think what the decision really
says, Your Honor, if they're talking in terms of principle
and what must be done on the basis of principle, that's
one thing. You take, for example, this matter of the
assignment of teachers. That question was a question that
was on the basis of a principle across the board of what
you're going to do with the assignment of teachers in your
system, and if the decision in the courts in the Swann case
should be a decision on principle and not tied to some
specific finding of fact in that case that differs from
this case, it could very well be controlling.
THE COURT: Mr. V/omble, when they come back, like
it was in December - Reidsville, where both sides— I think
they had only one school there that was one race; States
ville, not too far from there; Durham, not too far; and
they say do this now, right now. And that's the Court of
Appeals, and that wasn't just in regard to teachers. They
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had this principle. But they were dealing with pupils and
teachers, and they put down the ratio rule on teachers and
also on those systems, even though I think in Reidsville -
it was my information - that the plaintiffs had agreed
that this one school could stand, but the Court of Appeals
says, "No, it’s got to be done now by way of pupil mixing,"
and had to be done. That sort of language, you know, is
pretty plain. That isn’t from the Supreme Court, but I
still contend that I have a certain duty to follow what our
Court of Appeals has said. I don’t mean a certain duty; I
think it is my duty to follow that, whether I believe in it
or whether I see it the same way or not.
Now, it is true that the Supreme Court says it
should meet - or throug Justice Burger - and set down some
specific principles, but it looks like to me we just have
to follow what we have now until something else is said
about it. That's what I have tried to do in this case,
which is apparently satisfactory to no one, to neither
party. The only compliment I had - I understand; I don’t
read the letters; I take the calls - I had one compliment,
I understand, from someone in Kernersville. They said that
they liked it because they weren't affected by it.
Are you saying, are you representing - and Mr.
Chambers, I realize that Mr. Womble is not testifying and
I don't accept this as the fact - but is it your contention,
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Mr. Womble, that if this order stands as it now stands to
be implemented, that it is physically impossible to implement
it?
MR. WOMBLE: So far as we now know, that's correct,
yes, sir. And we do have— of course there are many
satellite problems that go with it. For example, the
Sparrow case, you can draw a distinction between city
children and the children outside, but you can't draw a
distinction on the basis of when an area was annexed, that
being an arbitrary approach.
THE COURT: What about the statute— excuse me,
go ahead.
FIR. WOMBLE: If the Court should direct that this
clustering plan be implemented and refuse to stay the
clustering plan until the matter can be decided on appeal
and we are unable to get transportation for the children,
say at Kimberly Park who would be expected to go to school
at Sherwood Forest, then we have got a serious question then
as to whether or not under the Sparrow case we can continue
to provide any transportation for the children who are
already getting transportation, or who would be entitled to
it under the Sparrow case otherwise.
THE COURT: Well, isn't it true that the Board
has done nothing, Mr. Womble, about getting transportation
to take care of this? Is that your understanding, that they
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Just simply have not made any move to try to implement the
order through the proper transportation?
MR. Y/OMBLE: Your Honor, as the matter stands
right now, the situation is this. The School Board had
obtained in the county budget as tentatively adopted
:>196,000.00 which had been an original request, plus
^212,000.00 which was a subsequent request, and that was
^408,000.00 for new equipment, new buses. As finally
adopted by the County Commissioners, the sum of $212,000.00
was included and the $196,000.00 was held in abeyance.
Shortly after that, the County Commissioners returned the
$196,000.00 to the general fund of the county, which meant-'l*
that there was s$212,000.00 in the budget from which the
schools could order new buses. The schools proceeded with
‘.'AT '-V • ’
the ordering of those buses that they knew they would need
at that time. This was back sometime - I*m not sure how
many months ago, but it was prior to these most recent
decisions of the Court in this case. And they had ordered
twenty-one buses with the idea that they would order others
.found to be needed up to the amount that was appropriated.
The buses cost about $6,000.00 apiece, so that twenty-one
buses would take— if my math is correct - about J126,000.00.
Now, the County Commissioners the latter part of
ouly directed the School Board not to order— not to expend
any more of the funds appropriated for buses without first
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clearing with the County Commissioners. Now, frankly the
school Board has not because of that undertaken to order any
more but is of course uncertain at this point of whether
it's got the right to spend the money, and under the cir
cumstances whether it has got a right to commit the money
to do that. But even if it spent every cent of that, it
would not even have enough money to take care of the Sparrow
case children and the majority to minority case children,
much less this cluster plan.
THE COURT: I guess that message about the Board
of Commissioners was brought to you by Mr. Ligon who so
ably represented the Commissioners over here to the effect
that they had no influence on the School Board.
MR. V/OMBLE: Well, it was actually the Commission
ers— of course he is the county manager, but the School
Board has been in a position of not knowing how far it could
go toward getting buses.
THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: Mr. Garrou was just calling my atten
tion to one thing that possibly I had not made clear to the
Court in connection with the bus situation. As the Court
may have seen in the press or otherwise, well, one, you’ve
got the policy that the local School Board has to buy the
first bus and then the state buys the replacement buses as <
those wear out. The state has advised upon inquiry from
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■ v
the local school system here that if they can get the money
so that they can buy the new buses that have to be bought
up to any given number, that the state system would make
available some of its older buses that would be about ready
to be discarded that could be used on a temporary basis
while they were waiting for the new ones, but this would be
done only upon the assurance that they have got the money
for the new ones and are ordering the new ones, so that those
buses would not be used indefinitely. Am I clear on that?
THE COURT: Yes. They will let them have old
buses that are in storage provided that they will order new
buses and assure them of the pay for them when the new buses
come in.
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir. I think the particular
legal question that is going to be the real question on
appeal - certainly one of the real questions on appeal in
this case that the court will need to decide — is whether
or not the constitution is satisfied when our School Board
assigns pupils to schools on a non-discriminatory basis in
accordance to what for use of a better term - which is the
neighborhood plan. And one other thing that the Court had
mentioned in its order of July 17th was the matter of extend
ing the time for providing transportation of pupils who
sought majority to minority transfers. That was done and
was extended until August 10th, and some thirty—three
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additional applicants have come down with majority to
minority transfer requests which would qualify for transpor
tation under that policy.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Mr. Chambers?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I’ll be brief - I
don’t want to belabor on the motion of the School Board for
an extension of time. I respectfully submit to the Court
that any stay in this matter would be in error, because
the Court is obligated, we submit, to direct an implementa
tion plan at once, immediately. And we moved back in
January, as I recall, for an injunction requiring the
implementation of a plan during the school year, and the
Court at that time expressed some reluctance, and we thought
and still think that the Court - that the Supreme Court
and the Fourth Circuit had required that steps be taken at
that time to desegregate. We heard then basically the same
argument that we hear now - that it will be disruptive and
that it will take some time and it will require some steps
by the School Board, and I submit to the Court that Mr.
Womble's response to the question of the Court whether the
Board had taken any steps to prepare for any desegregational
plan was one of the most astounding instances that I have
seen of blatant disrespect for the Court.
Mr. Womble’s response, as I recall it, was that
the County Commissioners had appropriated some money,
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totalling about $212,000.00. It had put $180,000.00-some
as I recall back in the general budget of accounts, and the
Board had proceeded to order some twenty-one buses and had
in July - following the order of this Court - been instructed
by the County Commissioners not to order any more buses
until it had consulted with the County Commissioners. That,
as I understand it, is the progress that has been made by
this Board to implement the order of the Court.
Now, it's my understanding under the Supreme
Court’s ruling and decision, and under the Fourth Circuit's
decision, that when an order is entered requiring steps to
be taken by the Board, the Board is under the obligation -
even though the order might be incorrect - to proceed post
haste in preparing the implemented plan. This was clearly
stated by the Supreme Court in the United Mine Workers case;
it was reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in the case of
Birmingham - Wyatt vs. The City of Birmingham.
Now, this Court ordered the Board to proceed to
desegregate. It is now told by the Board that it hasn't
prepared to do so because the County Commissioners wanted
to consult with them before they proceeded to purchase the
necessary buses.
Now, one other matter and I want to proceed to
something else. The State Board has advised all school
boards in this state that it has ordered over six hundred
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and some buses, new buses, over three hundred of which will
be available by the 15th of this month, that it has on hand
over four hundred used buses which can be used - safely
used - to provide transportation for students, that it will
provide these buses to the local boards on a loan basis with
no money if they need them in order to implement plans of
desegregation.
THE COURT: You mean it's your understanding,
Mr. Chambers, that if this Board needed the twenty-seven
buses that they would not - contrary to Mr. Vomble's under
standing - have to assure the money for the buses?
MR. CHAMBERS: The only thing I understand the
Board needs to do is to tell the State Board that it will
as soon as possible provide funds to purchase new buses to
replace the old buses - as soon as possible.
THE COURT: Who do you think—
MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. H. A. Dodd, who is director
of transportation for the State Board of Education.
THE COURT: In Raleigh?
MR. CHAMBERS: In Raleigh. In addition, there is
a letter that was sent out by the State Board - I think it
was dated about July 7 or July 10, 1970 - which set out the
policy of the Board, State Board. While I'm on that, I
will again call the Court's attention to our position.
Prior to the Court's ruling dismissing the County Commission-
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ers and the State Board, we tried to make two pointa - one
of which I think that Judge Craven clearly accepted in the
case pending against the State Board of Education - Smith
against North Carolina State Board of Education. And that
position was that a state board - and the county commission
ers, I might add - cannot provide funds, public funds, to
any agency or institution that is practicing discrimination.
While staying a part of Judge Butler's order in
the Smith case which instructed or directed the State Board
to instruct the local boards to devise the plan, Judge
Craven stated that it was his opinion that the allegations
of the complaint requesting an injunction against the State
Board against providing funds to local boards not in com
pliance with the constitution stated a good cause of action.
Now, in this proceeding, that was one of the
things that we were asking for, one of the reasons we were
"that the State Board and the County Commissioners —
the Board of County Commissioners — were proper parties
defendant. Judge Craven felt that the State Board and the
state officials were proper parties defendant, and they are
not involved in the Smith case. But the same principle that
will apply to the State Board, I submit, will apply to the
County Commissioners.
The second reason that we are asking that the
state official and the County Commissioners be kept in was
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that they wer*e proper parties in order to insure compliance
.Doard oi Prince Edward County vras an appropriate case, where
the Court there said if the County Commission will not
provide the funds the Court has the authority to direct the
County Commission to levy taxes and provide the funds
necessary for the School Board to carry out its constitu
tional duties.
Now, here we have open defiance by the Board of
Commissioners <f Forsyth County. "We will not buy the buses
although the Court directs us to." I submit that the
County Commissioners would be a proper party to this pro
ceeding, and I think that in view of the steps that they
have taken now, they are necessary parties in order to
implement the decision of this Court.
THE COURT: Are you of the opinion - I’ve already
ruled on that and have ruled adversely to you, and from the
evidence that is before me without thinking about it in any
depth, since I still think I was correct on the evidence,
but developments later indicate that the County Commission
ers here are intent on directing the School Board’s
activities with reference to these matters. And I agree
with you, if there is anything to be done through this
proceeding ultimately, the County Commissioners should be
in this lawsuit. I don’t have authority to reverse myself
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here after entering an order dismissing them, do you think,
on the basis of something that might have transpired after
the evidence was closed?
MR* CHAMBERS: Your Honor, first of all with
respect to the first question, about whether the facts
before the Court previously were sufficient, I submit that
they were, because even the Court's order finds that the
Board needed to take additional steps in order to create a
unitary system. Now, that, I think Judge Craven has stated,
was sufficient for the Court to retain the County Commission
ers and the State as proper parties defendant, if for no
other reason than to enjoin them from appropriating funds
to a segregated or a racially discriminating system.
THE COURT: I haven't seen Judge Craven's order.
MR. CHAMBERS: The second point, about whether
the Court can now change its mind, I submit that it
wouldn't be necessarily a matter of the Court changing its
mind. It's our intention today, in view of what Mr.
V/omble has stated, to move the Court to add the Board, the
County Commissioners and the State Board and State Super
intendent as parties defendant on the basis that they are
necessary parties in order to properly implement the
decision of the Court. Now, the Court now has before it
some steps that have been taken by the County Commissioners,
which can thwart the implementation of the Court's order.
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I submit further that the State Board of Education
has the necessary transportation facilities, and this is
one of the factors that Judge McMillan was concerned about,
that would be necessary here in order to provide the
transportation for these students.
So we respectfully move and will submit tomorrow
a written motion for the Court to now add the County
Commissioners and the State Board of Education and the
State superintendent as parties defendant for proper and
effective implementation of the Court’s order.
Moving then to another point, first of all Just
in brief summary, I submit that there are enough buses to
provide transportation for the students. The local Board
of education Just hasn’t done what it was supposed to do in
order to desegregate the schools. It is not appropriate for
the Court now to award them some relief because they have
failed to. carry out the directive of the Court. I therefore
submit that the motion for stay should be denied.
In the Swann case, the Fourth Circuit considered
and set forth some facts that I think the Court here might
consider. One of those is that even with its reasonableness
test, the Court said that the district court should insure
that somewhere through the child's educational career he
would be exposed to an integrated educational experience.
Now, the district court here has approved of one all black
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high school, three all white senior high schools, and I
submit that this is one of the factors that the Court in
the Swann case was considering when it said that the court
must insure or should insure that somewhere in the child's
educational experience, he would be exposed to an integrated
education.
Now, in the Swann case, the Court of Appeals
vacated the elementary phase of the plan. It affirmed
the district court's secondary phase with cross-busing,
satellite and all, saying that these were appropriate steps
to take for desegregation. And it said this system with
an integrated junior high and senior high school would
provide an educational— an integrated educational experi
ence for the student somewhere in his educational experience.
Now, that is not true in the Winston-Salem system.
The second thing that the Court stated in the
Swann case was that if there happened to be intractable
segregated schools - and I submit there shouldn't be here -
but the Court here has stated that the district court should
direct the board to take some steps to provide some inte
grated opportunity for the students, or either some special
programs or whatever. Now, that has not been done here,
even though the Court would sustain some remaining segre
gated elementary schools. There is no plan that I know of
now before the Court or that the Board has considered that
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would provide the kind of mixed classes and some special
classes of a mixed program that the Fourth Circuit was
talking about in the Swann case.
Thirdly, Brewer, which followed Swann and which
was initially relied upon by the Board, involved a situation
where we have as the Court indicated earlier several
segregated schools under a plan approved by the district
court. And one of the factors that the Fourth Circuit
considered in the Brewer case was the fact that so many
black students remained in segregated schools and so many
white students. Under the plan directed here more than
fifty percent of the black students will remain in segre
gated schools and more than fifty percent of the white
students will remain in segregated schools. This fact was
also involved in the Norcross case that Mr. V.omble was
talking about a while ago, and contrary to Mr. Womble’s
contention, the Supreme Court there did reject his conten
tion that Mr. V/omble is advancing here, namely, that it
complies or satisfies the school board’s constitutional
responsibility to draw school zone lines and assign pupils
according to these zone lines, protecting - if we would use
the word - the neighborhood school.
The Fourth Circuit, the Supreme Court vacated—
The Sixth Circuit affirmed in that decision and sent it back
for a plan. Now, Chief Justice Burger did in that case
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indicate that he felt that the Supreme Court ought to con
sider some of these other factors that Mr. Womble has been
talking about, but it certainly in the Norcross case
rejected the contention of the board that the Board is
seeking to advance here.
And one other factor, Mr. Burger and seven other
judges joined in the Supreme Court decision that reinstated
Judge McMillan's decision of February 5, while sending the
matter back to the district court for further consideration.
That court reinstated the decision of Judge McMillan of
February 5.
THE COURT: Tell me about that. I notice that
in some of your papers that you presented, or something,
that you say that the Supreme Court reinstated that.
Elaborate on that a little bit. I don't understand that.
MR. CHAMBERS: As I understand it, as I read the
Court's decision, the Court is aware that Judge McMillan
ordered a plan that would desegregate all the elementary
schools, the junior highs, the senior highs. The Fourth
Circuit announced the reasonableness test on that decision
on appeal and vacated the elementary phase, while approving
of the junior high and senior high schools. The plaintiffs
in the Swann case then petitioned the Supreme Court for
certiorari. The Supreme Court granted certiorari and
reinstated the February 5th plan, pending further considers-
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t.lon of some plan by the district court, and it approved
of the Fourth Circuit’n direction whether other olternati v«?r
might be avaialble to the Court. It refused, however, to
reinstate the February 5th elementary phase of the plan.
The Supreme Court, however, did reinstate that February 5th
plan, and it is still pending. After reconsidering those
plans, Judge McMillan has again directed implementation
with some modificiation of the elementary phase of the
plan he initially ordered. As we understand the Fourth
Circuit’s ruling and what the Supreme Court approved, it
means that that plan is to be implemented until some further
order comes from the Fourth Circuit or from the Supreme
Court.
Now, one final thing that I would like to submit
to the Court, the Department of Justice filed an amicus
brief and argued in the Fourth Circuit and suggested to the
Fourth Circuit that the Department of Health, Education and
V/elfare might assist the district court in the preparation
of a plan. Now, this— well, we have disagreed with
several of the plans that the Department of Health, Educa
tion and V/elfare has prepared. The Court has had before it
basically three plans, two of which the Court mentioned in
its order. One plan was presented by Dr. Larsen, and the
Court thought it would require too much transportation.
The other plan, which was presented by the Board, would just
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draw geographic zones. The third plan, I think of Mr.
McGuffey, would provide some desegregation of the schools
in the north or central northern part of the city and some
of the southeastern part of the city. The Court's order in
directing some steps in regard to two or three schools did
not mention the McGuffey plan, but I think that here the
Court might consider directing this Board to consult with
the Department of Health, Education and Welfare to see if
there is some other plan which the Court might consider to
be reasonable which would provide for more desegregation
in the school system.
I respectfully submit that we have continued
racially identifiable schools, that these schools were
created by state action and are perpetuated by state action,
and that the order does not provide even the kind of relief
for the secondary schools and for the elementary schools
that might remain segregated that the Fourth Circuit was
considering in the Swann case, and on the basis of that I
respectfully move that the Court at least direct the Board
to consult with HEW and prepare another plan for submission
to the Court which would completely desegregate the schools.
I submit that they would not be desegregated now, and that
under the plan directed by the Court we do not end up with
a unitary system, but we continue with segregated schools
which are in violation of the constitution.
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THE COURT: I saw this little quip the other day.
It said if you listen to both sides of an issue - and I've
repeated this and those who have been with me have heard it
too many times - it says, "If you listen to both sides of
an issue, your chance of making error was doubled." I
hear you, Mr. Womble, you say this is way too far, and Mr.
Chambers says we ought to call it all off and order some
thing far more' drastic. The trouble with this thing is
this, you people have a constituency that you all represent
and you are rightfully entitled to represent, and the courts
are not entitled to a constituency; we are supposed to
espouse the law and whatever it is, which seems to be "no./
I see it, now I don't" this day with reference to the
schools, but it’s a real problem. All right, Mr. Womble.
MR. WOMBLE: Just a word or two, Your-Honor. Mr.
Chambers said something about blatant disrespect' i<jir the
• ■' \ ' •. o. ;\ •;
Court as illustrated by what I have said, and what have
said— I submit that what both of us have said simply
indicates that these buses cannot be acquired without
money, and that actually as far as the School Board is con
cerned, it has complied with the orders of the Court - it
has filed plans that it could not subscribe to itself in
response to the direction of the Court; it has filed plans
contrary to what Mr. Chambers has said which would look
toward greater opportunities for the children of both races
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to have educational interchange through the school system
through the school years that they would he in the public
schools. There is actually nothing that the School Board
would need to do in order to comply with the Court's order
other than to get the buses if it had the money, and as I
explained to the Court, it is our understanding that those
buses could be made available on a temporary basis if we
had the money. Now, he's got a different idea from the
state from what we have. We understand that you've got to
give them assurances that— you have got to assure to them
that you've got the money available so that you can get
those buses, buy the new buses, before they will let you
have buses on a temporary basis.
THE COURT: I'm going to forewarn both of you,
the Court might do something that it has never done before
and probably is not quite appropriate, but the Court might
just find out firsthand about that. I think if you go
straight to the horse's mouth, there would be very little
opportunity for you all to cross examine anything. But a
phone call will clarify that in my mind.
MR. WOMBLE: On this matter of the statement in
the Swann case that there should be at least some period
during the public school education where a child would be
in school with other children, as the Court is well aware
we have been undertaking to go forward with construction
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of a northeast and a southeast high school, and that would
enable us to eliminate the situation at Atkins, and the
Court is aware of the reasons why we are unable to do that.
THE COURT: That has troubled me no end, about
that fact. Here our citizens have voted that money and
that money should be spent, or else children are going to
be out on the streets.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, with respect to that,
I submit that we feel - and I submit, probably so - that if
the Court were directing that these schools be located in
a way that would desegregate the schools it should be spent.
But as the order now stands and what we understand to be
the projected location of these schools, the Board would be
doing nothing but continuing segregated schools with its
continuing zones and no clustering. The order as it now
stands leaves several schools, as the Court indicated earliei,
segregated. The proposed location of these schools would
just continue that segregated situation, and we think that
we are entitled to an order that would require the location
of the new schools to be such that it would create or dis
establish the segregated system that presently exists.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, haven't they agreed -
and I realize it isn't in your suit here; it's in the Allen
and the other suit - Contrary really to what was judicious
I wouldn't let you amend the complaint like I ordinarily
1A M E R L A C H C R A A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u . t S c o f t k . i
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would do, because I want to keep that issue out. Is my
understanding correct, somewhere somebody said that they
have agreed in those suits to present it to the plaintiffs,
the location of those schools, and if they couldn't agree
then it would come on for some hearing about it?
MR. WOMBLE: Yes, sir. The idea was to file each
proposed school expenditure with the Court, with a copy to
the opposing side, and an opportunity for a hearing if
there's any objection.
MR. CHAMBERS: I don't see any way that we can
disestablish a system where the Board has continuously been
permitted to build schools that would perpetuate segregated
schools.
THE COURT: Well, if you pick out a location that
is mutually agreeable - I understand that these are to be
moved kind of out of the more urban area, one out in the
northeast and one in the southeast - don't you think that
reasonable people could get together, that we move these
students out from Atkins down to some school like that, and
also have it serve to feed into that school certain of your
high schools and that be known? It is just unthink
able that reasonable people - and I am not saying that all
of the fault is on the plaintiffs' side, I don't want to
indicate that - people make rash statements and that is bad.
I see some of it in the newspapers, and that is not good for
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r s
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us. Don't you think that something could be agreed upon
even though back here we have so many schools that are all
of one race, that it would seem that reasonably that is the
way we can extricate outselves from this dilemma that we are
in - if we put the schools out there. But it takes years
to get the planning and the land and everything, and time
is passing. Some of our kids will be graduated and we'll
still be talking about the schools. It's not in your case
here.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, one of the factors
that the Courts have been somewhat slow to appreciate is
that blacks under the plans that have been directed have
been the ones who have principally borne the burden of
desegregation. The plan that this Board proposes for the
high schools, for instance, would locate the high schools
out of the black residential areas - not even near them.
It would be the black students who would be transported,
and this is all that the Board proposes here. We think
that it is proper to continue objecting to the plan for
locating these schools and for building these schools until
there is either an order from the Court specifically direct
ing the Board to locate schools in a way that would desegre
gate or disestablish the segregated system that we have,
or secondly some understanding or agreement between the
Board— on the part of the Board, that it would not consider
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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the fact— one of the factors specifically being that it
would not place the entire burden of desegregating these
schools on the black parent.
Now, that is what the Board proposes today, and
I don't think that certainly the plaintiffs could agree to
anything other than a method whereby the burden for desegre
gation would be borne by all of the children in the system
and not just the black parents. And the way I see con
struction today, that's what they propose to do.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Chambers, I can see— I
don't know this county; I wasn't reared here - but I can
see going out of the city limits and down - as I look on a
map more than going out there - in the less populated area
and building a high school— well, it would seem to me from
what I have been told here and what happens with schools,
that I know that most of the high school students — you have
kind of a central high school, not like your elementary
schools - but to those schools most of the children are
transported, or contrary to what happened when we came along
they have cars of their own. I've never seen as many cars
driven by high school students, but they have cars of their
own or their family's. But it isn't a walk-in proposition.
I could envision in the southeast here, out in the rural
area almost - and if we could get away from this congested
area of town where you have the problems that you have with
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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congestion and vandalism and traffic, and you've got more
space and more parking— True, to get the children away from
Atkins and out there, they*ve got to be transported, but
so has the white child who comes in there from other areas
has got to be transported, too. It seems to me that the
alternative that you offer is to tear down, just giving an
example, Atkins or a school in that area and then get enough
land and build a school back among the costly, thickly
populated area, and into that to bring students. Now, that
wouldn't appear to be reasonable to do that. Would it to
you?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I respectfully disagree,
and where the schools are proposed to be located - as I
understand in the northeast and the southeast - it would takê
as it is right now there is a black school— one of the
objections that many of the parents along this litigation
have is with the plan that just closes Carver School, and
we submit for no other reason other than the school has
formerly served black students. Now the Board proposes to
close Atkins and locate all the schools out in an area that
would involve no transportation of white students into a
black area. That is basically all we see that the Board
has done. We think that is in violation of the constitution.
MR. WOMBLE: Mr Chambers doesn't seem to under
stand Carver.
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MR. CHAMBERS: This is one of the objections
that the plaintiffs have to the proposed location of the
schools. It would utilize no area and we think solely
because it is a black area, and transport all the black
students out of the area to schools that would be located
principally in white residential areas. Now, I agree that
there would be some white students who would live out of
the area that would have to be transported to the school,
but it would be all of the black students, not just some,
and there would be no school in a black area that would
provide some accommodation for students, and this is one
of the problems, and one of the problems with the plaintiffs’
position on the proposed bond issue.
THE COURT: I thought that modern-day thinking
was to get these schools, and which I thought was good,
away from these central highly congested areas and on out
at least to the suburbs, or even further. I see Parkland
out here - I don't know whether you are familiar with it -
that seems to me to be ideal, you know, out there where you
don't have all the clutter and cluster, and I didn't know
there was any thinking that would dictate that, you know,
would do the construction back in the congested areas any
more, but maybe that is it. I feel very, very keenly a
duty to do anything that is possible that I can do to get
the parties together so that we can get the money utilized.
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Costs keep going up, and there are more children coming of
age to need the school facilities, and it is really a
condemnation of both races that we can’t agree on something
like that. I really feel like it is a definite condemnation
of us whereby we can't come to some agreement on that, but
maybe we can't.
MR. WOMBLE: Just one thing on this Carver School.
Of course that is an example of a school that was all
black, and under the plan that is to be put into effect
this school year it will be a Junior high school, which will
be attended by both races. And under the assignment plan
that was filed with the Court, the pupils will not be per
mitted to exercise freedom of choice to transfer away
resulting in a resegregation of the school.
THE COURT: Well, gentlemen, I had hoped that
this matter could be brought to some resolution long before
now. I realize that some of the delay of getting the matter
heard was by reason of the fact that the Court was tied up
and that we couldn't hear it. I am very disappointed that
we arrive at this juncture with the matter still very much
at sea. I think that the positions that you all present
indicate very definitely how far actually and really we are
apart in these matters. It is certainly not consoling, to
say the least, for those of us who have to ultimately say
what the situation shall be. It's not a very pleasant job,
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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and I am sure that both Mr. Chambers and Mr. Womble, both
of you, speak genuinely as to what you actually think about
this situation. There is no greater evidence of a weak
court than one that doesn't state what it thinks and
implements what it orders, and although rash statements are
made about what people will or will not do, I am not going
to make any rash statements except to say whatever is
ultimately required done in this system I expect to order
it and use whatever powers are available to me to see that
it is done. And it is our responsibility as officials to
try to get people to understand these matters, and I am sure
that many of you have the same personal position that I do,
that there are many things in this day and time that have
changed to our dislike - in fact, we don't agree with them -
but that doesn't answer it. The change is here, and what
ever is directed to be done we must do it, and I expect
whatever we have to do here that it be complied with. I
am really disappointed that the Board hasn't apparently
moved to try to implement the order, but I think they had no
right to do that until there was some order to the contrary.
Nevertheless, that has been done.
Now, the problem I have that I am mainly concerned
with is this. Of course if buses are not available - and
if I insist on the implementation of the order and then
children do not have transportation - that is a real problem.
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There are parents who think that their children will not
have transportation for the coming school year from things
that have been said in the newspaper and otherwise. I would
think that if the plan is ordered and the motion to stay is
denied and you have to go ahead and you can't provide the
buses, I don't think you could bus them in other parts of
the city without busing and not bus over in the areas that
we are talking about clustering. I think it would be
unconstitutional for you not to do so.
Mr. Chambers, you say that you are going to make
some motions. Are you going to file some formal motions on
the County Commissioners?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir. I would like right now
to move orally to make the Board of County Commissioners a
party defendant in this proceeding. I will follow that up
tomorrow with a written motion.
THE COURT: Will you do that?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir, I will. Your Honor, I
don't know what the Court is thinking in respect to a stay,
but I had submitted, I think, that no stay should be granted.
If there is some question about the availability of buses,
I respectfully request that the Court deny the motion for a
stay and give us an opportunity to present some evidence.
THE COURT: To present some what?
MR. CHAMBERS: To present some evidence. We have
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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gone through this several times now.
THE COURT: Can you get a letter for me from Mr.
Dodd saying that twenty-seven buses will be available here?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, I think what the record
of the evidence will show that, first of all, this system
has almost enough buses to implement any plan the Court
might direct. Every school system in the state has to
carry certain spare buses for when the regular buses break
down. Secondly, every school system in the state retains
some of the buses that the School Board— that are replaced
each year. For instance, in Charlotte twenty-eight or
thirty buses are replaced each year. The School Board has
retained those buses for the past three years. These buses
are in workable order according to the state.
THE COURT: Wouldn't they let the old bus go back
in?
MR. CHAMBERS: No, sir. That's the whole point.
I'm telling you that we haven't tried to present any evidence
today because I never dreamed that to be any kind of problem.
As I understand the practice, eventually the state picks up
these old buses, but they stay around the school system for
two or three or four years and they're still there, and I I
submit they're still here. I understand also that right
here in this system, in Winston-Salem or Forsyth County,
there's a distribution center for buses for the State of
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North Carolina covering a certain district for the state.
THE COURT: That wouldn't necessarily mean that
they could use them here.
MR. CHAMBERS: That's the whole point. The state
will make them available. If there is some question about
them being made available, again the Court could Just add
on the State Board of Education as a party defendant. This
is Just another point to delay desegregating the school
system. \le could come in here and say that the state board
won't give us twenty-two buses.
THE COURT: Mr. Chambers, the thing that bothers
me about adding the state board is that I told you at the
time - and I have a feeling that the suit now pending in
Raleigh would have been here if I had agreed with you. One
time you people proposed over there to have Judge Butler -
which is all right with me, you know, when something is as
you all see it discriminatory in Ashe County or in Cataret
County, or wherever it happens, then you go there and it is
corrected in that court. Now, that is too much to ask one
court to do. If I have Jurisdiction here to do and keep
them in as a party here, then that is the very dilemma that
I get into, and I don't want to be. I will take my
responsibility in the Middle District to be a school board
and do the best I can, but I don't want to take on the
Eastern istrict of North Carolina and the Western District
G R A H A M E R L A C H E R & A S S O C I A T E S
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either, if I can help it. Now, can we bring the State
Board of Education in in this just for this case? Is that
what you're saying? I haven't thought about it really.
MR. CHAMBERS: If the Court thinks that they might
be necessary in order to get a plan that the Court directs
implemented. Now, they've got the buses; there's no
question about it; they have the buses and they can make
them available to the school system, and if the Court thinks
that they are a party that is necessary in order to imple
ment the plan, they can be added.
THE COURT: How about your making your motion in
that respect. I understand that you are making that orally,
but can you set that down in writing? This is Tuesday.
MR. CHAMBERS: I could get it in tomorrow.
THE COURT: Tomorrow?
MR. CHAMBERS: Yes.
THE COURT: Let me take a look at that. Also,
of course you are saying if that is done and there's no
question about transportation being available— is that it?
MR. CHAMBERS: That's correct. I respectfully
submit that there is no question even without those parties
being present, but if there is some lingering doubt_ I
know the Court has jurisdiction; there's no question about
it. I think if there's any lingering doubt, the Court might
just add them on to make certain. But the facilities are
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available, the money is there to do whatever is needed, and
this school system has a budget from the County Commission,
even without the $167,000.00 or whatever it is that the
County Commission was withholding, to purchase enough buses
to operate this system.
THE COURT: Don't they work on a line item? If
they don't have it in there—
MR. CHAMBERS: They've got a general provision in
the order - a general budget they can use for any reason
they want to. Now, there are some line items and— well,
they can use it for any reason they want to.
MR. WOMBLE: V/e submit that Mr. Chambers is Just
incorrect about that statement.
THE COURT: I know that the Board of Education
that I represented once, they didn't get much money, you
know, Just where they could apply it. That might be true;
I've never seen this budget.
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, that is one of the
reasons we're asking you - if you are concerned about the
availability of funds for buses - to permit us to present
evidence about the matter. I seriously submit that there
isn't any limitation on the funds or any limitation on the
facilities—
THE COURT: Let me ask you a very practical
question.
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MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, sir.
T7IE COURT: You say and your clients say that
what has been ordered is so minimum and such a minute part
of what is required done - you haven't said it in Just this
way - that really that this is Just what is a very minute
amount insofar as what is required done and what the deci
sions say must be done. If you are right in that and we
have been concerned about transferring kids in the middle
of the year, you indicated that that was not really, as
your people saw it, that it was not detrimental in fact to
transfer children in the middle of the year. If you are
right in that, from a practical standpoint, why don't we
wait until November when the Court of Appeals decides this
and then it comes down and we wrestle with it all in one
package? m a t ' s wrong with that?
MR. CHAMBERS: Your Honor, the very practical
reason that we have waited now for more than sixteen years,
and I don't have any right and I submit that the Board
doesn’t have any right to sit back and say that we will
withhold the constitutional rights of these black kids for
two, three, four more months. The Court has very definitely
decided that these kids are being deprived of their con
stitutional right. The Court has decided that the right
they are being deprived of is present and they should be
given immediate relief. I can't sit back and parcel out
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justice or parcel out constitutional rights to children and
say we ought to withhold their rights when the Court has
already declared that these steps are to be taken until
November or December. I don't think it would be fair to
the children, and they have already suffered enough.
Secondly, the Board can now do it, and as a
practical measure these children can go into the school
system now and begin the adjustments that they will need to
make rather than wait until next November or some other time.
We have, thirdly, a plan that can be implemented
piecemeal. For instance, right now we're talking about
seven or eight schools, or maybe nine schools - I forget
the exact number. If the Fourth Circuit or the Supreme
Court directs that more steps be taken, those steps could
be taken independent of what the Court has directed here.
So I don't see any need or any practical need for waiting
until November.
THE COURT: It all kind of ties in together with
your feeder systems. If we knew exactly what was required,
if anything was - let's assume something is - it would be
far easier to work out in one package with your feeders and
everything at one time rather than piecemeal.
MR. CHAMBERS: It will not have to affect these
students.
THE COURT: Well, you've got special education
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programs and transfers—
MR. CHAMBERS: We're talking only about elementary
schools. Your Honor, I don't think it should be stayed, and
I don't see any basis for doing it. And that's true even if
further steps are directed to be taken in November.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: It could very easily affect these
schools, Your Honor. In the first place, as was indicated
before, if it doesn't have to be done then it would be
unfortunate to do it and then have to undo it. If more has
to be done, it could very easily affect other schools as
well as these schools. So that if something else has to be
done, then it could be the approach would mix these schools
in a different way with other schools. So it would be a
completely different kind of ultimate package from the
standpoint of being piecemeal as opposed to the whole thing.
Of course, on this matter of school buildings and the con
struction, the argument on the other side is in the exact
reverse there. They said that they don't want to go along
with the construction of one building at a time; they want
to see the whole package and see how $24 million is going to
be spent at once before approving anything. So it is really
just an inconsistency.
THE COURT: Well, I know there are problems, and
I know that there are problems on the plaintiffs' side and
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I know that there are problems on the defendants’ side. And
I am not unmindful of that at all. I know this, that if
Mr. Chambers is right and this amount of requirement brings
on all the consternation that it apparently brings on with
the Board, I don’t know what we are going to do if the
amount that he says and contends is required, if it should
ever descend on the Board, I don’t know how they would
handle that. This seems to be almost an unfathomable
situation for us, and I am not saying that being caustic
or in any joking manner. It has been indicated to be a
mammoth problem. But as I say, I don't know how we would
ever handle one with the proportion that the plaintiffs
indicate should come about.
I feel this very definitely, unless our people
will come to some understanding in regard to our public
school system we are going to bring it to shambles and
have somewhat in the nature of custodial care, because I
don't believe that students can learn in the atmosphere
that is generated for them and that teachers can teach in
this sort of situation, and I am sure that administrators
cannot do their jobs with all of this turmoil. And the
courts, of which I am a part, I feel like some of it has
been brought on perhaps by us through not being sufficiently
definite about what is expected of people.
I will await your motion, Mr. Chambers, and I
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will think about this, and I will enter some order in it
Just as soon as I can.
Is there anything else from your side, Mr. Womble?
MR. WOMBLE: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Let's adjourn court.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled
case was closed.)
I
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-1866-
CERTIFICATE
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
COUNTY OF FORSYTH
I, Graham Erlacher, Notary Public in and for the
County of Forsyth, State of North Carolina, and Official
Court Reporter in the Middle District of North Carolina, do hereby certify:
That the foregoing hearing was held at the time and
place mentioned, beginning at 2:00 o'clock p.m. on the 11th day of August, 1970;
That the proceedings were taken by me on stenomask and
thereafter reduced to typewriting under my superivision, and
the foregoing sixty-one (61) pages contain a full, true
and correct transcription of all the proceedings in said case;
That the undersigned Graham Erlacher is not of kin or
in any wise associated with any of the parties to said cause
of action or their counsel, and that I am not interested in the event thereof.
*/IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this
°<J‘- day of August, 1970.
My commission expires:
August 23, 1970
j
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