Brief of Amicus Curiae, Pascal F. Calogero, Jr., In Opposition to Plaintiffs' Motion for an Injunction Pending Appeal

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

RALEIGH DIVISION

RALPH GINGLES, ET AL.,

RUFUS EDMI STEN , ETC, ,
ET AL. ,

ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL.

L,AMES B. HUNT, .JR., ETC.,
ET AL. ,

doHN J. CAVANAGH, ET AL.

ALEX K. BROCK, eTC.,
ET AL. ,

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8t-203-CrV-5

81-1066-CrV-5

82-5 +5 -C r V- 5

DE FENDANTS .

TRIAL BEFORE

THE HONORABLE .J. DI CKSON PHI LLI PS

THE HONORABLE FP.ANKLIN T. DUPREE, JR.

THE HCNORABLE W. EAP.L BR I TT

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AT RALEIGH: THURSDAY, JULY 28, 198]

VOLUME 4

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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,l AlN OFF|CE, RAt EtcH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
P}OENIX, ARIZONAF.r P. O. lq 2ttar

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

APPEARANCES

ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

LESLIE J. WINNER, ESQUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
951 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202

ARTHUR \.l. DONALDSON, ESQUI RE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER 6 KENERLY
]09 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAP.OLINA 28144

ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQUIRE
P. O. BOX 32+5
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402

LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CI RCLE
SUITE 2O3O
NEl,l YORK, NEW YORK 10 0 19

ON BEHALF OF T,HE DFFENDANTS:

JERRIS LEONARD, ESQUiRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 rTTH STREET, N.W.
wASHINGTON, D.C. 20006

JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602

F P. O. Eor 2l1ti
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 A16.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TABLE OF CONTENTS

WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS EXAM

RALPH LITTLE

BY MS. WINNER 609-626

BY MR. LEONARD

BY .JUDGE PHI LLI PS

BY JUDGE DUPREE

WI LLI E LOVETT

BY MS. WiNNER 645-b70

BY. MR. LEONARD

BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS

BY .JUDGE BR I TT

BY JUDGE DUPREE

640-641

626-640

641-642

642-644

694-695

b70-691 695-694

691-690

b90-692

G. K. BUTTERFIELD. JR.

BY M.S. WINNER 695-719

BY MR. LEONARD 
. 

7Ig-727

BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS

727-728
734

7 32-7 34

7 28-7 32

FRED BELFIELD. JR.

B}'MS. WINNER 737-754

BY MR. LEONARD 754_76I

BY .JUDGE DUPREE 76t-7b3

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TABLE OF CONTENTS(CONTINUED)

D I RECT CROSS RED I RECT RECROSS EXAMWITNESSES

.JOE P. MOODY

BY MS. cUINIER 765-t83

BY MR. LEONARD 753-7Bs

THE.ODORE ARR I NGTON

BY MR. HUNTER lgl-gO2

BY MR. LEONARD 802-8L2

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS

EXHIBITS

NUMBER DESCRIPTION

812-81tt

PLAINTIFF

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ARRINGTON CURRICULUM VITAE 789

I^'ORK PRODUCT OF ARRINGTON 79+

ll rt ,, 7grr

It tt rr- 794

rl. ll il 794

rt r, ,, 
7 g,+

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rr !t ,, 79+

, rr ,, 7gq

1 ,r ,, 
7gl.+

, rr ,, 7g4

814-815

8r6-818

MARKED RECEIVED

789

802

802

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802

802

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TABLE OF CONTENTS(CONTINUED)

NUMBER

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DESCRIPTION

WORK PRODUCT . ARRINGTON

tt !t r!

MARKED RECE I VED

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CITY OF WILSON PRECINCT MAP

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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 9:05 A.M.

THIS CAUSE CAME ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL BEFORE

THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON PHILLIPS, ON

THURSDAY, .JULY 29, 1g g l, AT RALE I GH,

NORTH CAROLINA.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: BEFORE WE RESUME THE

PROCEEDINGS, I WANT TO MAKE INQUIRY OF COUNSEL AS TO THEIR

CURRENT ESTIMATES OF TIME AND WHERE THEY SEEM TO BE IN THE

MINDS OF COUNSEL IN MOVINO TOWARD COMPLETION OF THE CASE.

MS. WINNER: I AM FRANKLY SURPRISED

THAT YOU WOULD GIVE OUR TIME ANY CREDENCE CREDIBILITY.

,.JUDGE PHILLIPS: I DIDNIT SAY WE WoULD.

MS. WINNER: MY CURRENT GOAL IS TO GET

THROUGH ALL OF OUR WITNES.ES EXCEPT FOR THE TI^,o TODAY AND

TO HAVE THE OTHER TWO OFF BEFORE LUNCH TOMORROW.

MS. WiNNER: MR. BALLANCE WHO WAS TAKIN

AWAY TO DO HIS TRIAL, AND MR. WILLINGHAM.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, DO YOU HAVE

ANY ESTIMATE?

MR. LEONARD: WELL, YOUR HONOR, WE ARE

STILL IN DOUBT AS TO WHETHER THE COURT IS GOING TO RECEIVE

ANY TESTIMONY FROM WiTNESSES OFFERED BY MF.. HUNTER' WE, OF

PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2etas

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COURSE, STRENUOUSLY OB.JECT TO THAT. BUT THE COURT IS

GOING TO DECIDE IT. WE COULD BE READY TO GO FRIDI\Y NOON

OR RIGHT AFTER LUNCH AND START PUTTING ON SOME WITNESSES.

IT IS A LITTLE HARD FOR ME TO TELL UNTIL I SEE

THE EXTENT TO WHICH COUNSEL MAY CROSS.EXAMINE. IF WE

STARTED FRIDAY NOON, WE CERTAINLY WILL HAVE OUR CASE IN

NEXT WEEK WITHOUT ANY DOUBT.

TJUDGE BRITT: THAT IS ASSUMING WE DONI T

HAVE SATURDAY OR SUNDAY SESSIONS.

MR. LEONARD:

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

THAT IS CORRECT, YOUR HONO

LET ME ASK YOU THIS--AND

I REALIZE WE ARE UNABLE TO PREDICT THESE THINGS WITH ANY

DEGREE OF CERTAINTY..ASSUMI NG .JUST AS A MATTER OF PUTT I NG

ON YOUR OWN WITNESSES, THE ONES THAT YOU NOW CONTEMPLATE,

AND WITHOUT REGARD TO PROBLEMS OF REBUTTAL OF WITNESSES

THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW WILL BE TESTIFYING ON THE PLAINTIFFSI

SIDE, .JUST AS A MATTER O' PUTTING ON THE CASE AS YOU

PRESENTLY PLAN--YOUR OWN CASE--IF YOU WERE TO GET STARTED

ON FRIDAY, DO YOU THINK IT WOULD TAKE THE REI"iAINDER OF THE

WHOLE OF NEXT WEEK TO DO THAT?

MR. LEONARD: NO, SIR. I WOULD ESTIMATE

THAT OUR CASE ON DIRECT WILL GO IN IN TWO AND A HALF DAYS.

JUDGE PHiLLIPS: LET ME MAKE THIS FURTHER

INQUIRY. COUNSEL FOR THE INTERVENORS-.AS I UNDERSTOOD IT,

IF YOU ARE DISPOSED TO WANT TO PUT ON ANY WITNESSES IN

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ADDITION TO THOSE THAT MS. WINNER IS PRESENTING, IT

WOULD CONSIST AS I RECALL THE TESTIMONY OF ONE WITNESS?

MR. DONALDSON: THAT IS CORRECT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE AN ESTIMATE

OF THE TI,ME IT WOULD TAKE FOR THAT ONE WITNESS?

MR. DONALDSON:

LONGER THAN 20 TO 25 MINUTES.

I WOULD SAY ON DIRECT NO

JUDGE PHILLIPS: LET ME MAKE NOW THIS

FURTHER INQUIR\'--AND I ASK EACH COUNSEL TO PONDER IT

CAREFULLY WITH ATTENTION NOT ONLY TO OUR OWN PERSONAL

SITUATIoNS BUT THAT oF TTie WITNESSES--WE ARE CoNSIDERING

THE POSSIBILITY OF CONVENING ON MONDAY AT 2:OO OICLOCK TO

FREE UP MCNDAY FOR A VARiETY OF THINGS FOR THE CONVENIENCE

OF THE COURT.

WE ARE NOT DISPOSED TO DO THAT IF THERE IS ANY

CONSIDERABLE INCONVENIENCE THAT WOULD RESULT IN DOING

THAT, EVEN TO COUNSEL, PARTICULARLY THOSE FROM LONG

DISTANCES AWAY OR TO ANY l/'/ITNESSES. AND WE TAKE.JUDICIAL

NOTICE OF THE FACT, THAT THERE IS AT LEAST ONE I^IITNESS WHO

IS REMAINING IN THE AREA FROM A LONG DISTANCE AWAY. IF

YOU WOULD PREFER TO HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK WITH YOUR

WI TNESSES OR TO CONFER AMONG YOURSELVES AND RESPOI.ID TO

THAT LATER, THAT WOULD BE FINE. IF YOU COULD TELL ME NOW

IF IT WOULD POSE ANY INCONVENIENCE TO YOU, IT WOULD BE

HELPFUL TO US TO KNOW.-

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA

MR. LEONARD;

THAT, YOUR HONOR.

WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH

NO PROBLEM.

NO PROBLEM?

DR. ARRINGTON IS HERE

YOUR HONOR, WE DISCUSSED

HAVE AN EQUAL PROBLEM WITH

FROM ROANOKE RAPIDS AND HERE AND

THAT IT WOULD BE BEST FOR US TO GET

MS. WINI']ER:

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

MR. HUNTER:

TODAY. HE I^/ILL BE HERE ToMoRRow. HE DOES TEACH AND IF t,,lE

COULD GET HIM ON TODAY OR TOMORROW, WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

WITH THE PRESENT SCHEDULE, I THINK THAT WOULD BE POSSIBLE.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS: WELL, WE WILL TAKE THAT

ADVICE AND MEDITATE UPON IT WHEN WE GET A CHANCE TO BREAK

OFF .THE BENCH WHERE WE CAN CONFER A LITTLE BIT. AND WE

WILL GIVE YOU THE SCHEDULE FOR MONDAY AFTER THE NOON

RECESS. WE WILL TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT WE I,'ILL DO THAT.

REALIZING THAT THE DEFENDANTS MAY HAVE-.AND AS

INDICATED THEY CERTAINLY WILL.-AN OB.JECTION TO ALLOWING ANY

TESTIMONY FROM THE PUGH PLAINTIFFS AS INTERVENORS, I MIGHT

SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL NEVERTHELESS IF COUNSEL

HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONFER DURING THE RECESS ABOUT THE

POSSIBILITY OF ALLOWING THAT WITNESS TO BE PUT ON--DR..

ARRINGTON TO BE PUT ON--IF HE IS TO BE ALLOWED TO TESTIFY

AT ALL OUT OF ORDER.

MS. WINNER:

THAT LAST NIGHT, AND WE

WITNESSES WHO HAVE COME

THERE, AND HAVE DECIDED-o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OUR OUT OF TOWN WITNESSES ON

.JUDGE PH I LLI PS:

AND OFF TODAY IF I^lE CAN.

VERY WELL. WE WI LL

PROCEED.

( WHEREUPoN,

THE WiTNESS ON THE

STAND AND TESTIFIED

RALPH LITTLE

STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS,

FURTHER AS FOLLOIVS: )

T EXAMINATION
(RESUMED)

RESUMED THE

t^JE WERE

QUESTION

A

a

ELDERLY

HOUSING?

DIREC 9:10 A.M.

BY IVI,S. WINNER:

MFI. LITTLE, I 
-gTLIEVE 

WHEN WE STOPPED YESTERDAY

TALKING ABOUT HOUSING TN WINSTON-SALEM. AND THE

WAS IS THERE ANY PUBLIC HOUSING IN WINSTON-SALEM?

AND THE ANSWER TO THAT WAS IIYES.I'

AND FOR THE PUBLIC I.IOUSING THAT IS NOT FOR

CITIZENS, WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THAT

A THE PUBLIC HOUSING.THAT IS NOT FOR ELDERLY, I

BELIEVE THE RACIAL COMPOSITIION WOULD CERTAINLY BE PRE-

DOMI NAhITLY BLACK.

DT) YOU HAVE A ROUGH PERCENTAGE APPROXIMATION?

THE PUBLIC HOUSING PROJECTS AS I KNOW THEM--AND

I THINK I KNOW THEM WELL BECAUSE I GREW UP IN A PUBLIC

HOUSING PRO.JECT--ARE PROBABLY 99 OR 95 PERCENT BLACK IN

WI NSTON-SA.LEM.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IN WHAT PART OF WINSTON-SALEM ARE THEY

LOCATED ?

A THEY ARE LOCATED IN THE NORTH, NORTHEAST, EAST

AND SOMEWHAT NEAR THE SOUTHEAST SECTION OF THE CITY

PRIMARILY.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THOSE PARTS

OF THE CITY?

A PREDOI{INANTLY BLACK.

A HAS THE CITY OF WINSTON.SALEM TAKEN ANY OTHER

ACTION WHICH AFFECTED THE LEVEL OF RESIDENTIAL SEGREGA-

TION OF THE CITY?

A RECENTLY--WELL, WE WERE CALLED INTO QUESTION

ABOUT OUR RELOCATION PRACTICES FOLLOWING THE URBAN

RENE}IAL THAT HAS GONE ON FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS IN WINSTO

SALEM. A NUMBER OF HOUSES WERE TORN DOWN IN THE PREDOMI-

NAhITLY BLACK COMMUNITY THAT WERE OF A SUBSTANDARD NATURE-

SOME OF THEM.

AND THE INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE DISPLACED FROM

THEIR HOMES WERE LOCATED IN PREDOMINANTLY BLACK COMMUNI-

TIES. AND THE QUESTION AROSE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE

CITY, FIRST OF ALL, HAD TAKEN THE SAME APPROACH IN MAS-

SIVE CONDEMNATION, PARTICULARLY IN SOME OF THE OLDER

WHITE SECTIONS OF THE CITY. EFFORTS WERE MADE TOWARD

REHABILITATION OF THOSE PROPERTIES. AND IN THE BLACK

COMMUNITY THE POLICY PRIMARILY WAS ONE OF DEMOLITION AND

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REPLACEMENT.

AND AS I STATED EARLIER, THE RESIDEI.ITS OF THE

PREDOMINANTLY BLACK COMMUNITIES_-THE HOUSES THAT WERE

TORN DOWI++IERE REPLACED INTO PREDOMINANTLY BLACK AREAS.

AND THERE WAS QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THESE PEOPLE

HAD BEEN SHOWN AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES TO LOCATE IN WHAT IS

DESCRIBED AS NON-RACIALLY IMPACTED AREAS.

AND WE HAVE MADE AN EFFORT OVER THE LAST YEAR

OR SO TO SEE IF WE COULD TRY TO RECTIFY THAT.

A WHAT IS TI.IE LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT INTEGRATION

IN WINSTON-SALEM AND FORSYTH COUNTY?

A WELL, BLACKS WORK--WELL, THE LARGER CORPORA-

TIONS--BLACKS WORK IN THE LARGER CORPORATIONS IN WINSTON-

SALEM--REYNOLDS, HANES. PRIMARILY THEY WILL BE CONCEN-

TRATED IN THE LOWER ECHELON .JOBS.

., IN THE SMALL BUSI*"'=S IN WINSTON.SALEM.-

WHICH I REMIND PEOPLE IN MANY INSTANCES EMPLOY MORE THAN

THE LARGER CORPORATIONS--YOU WILL FIND THAT MANY OF THE

SMALL BUSINESSES EMPLOY MORE BLACKS. AND I SPEAK OF

BUSINESSES THAT MAY EMPLOY 20 OR FEWER.

a WHEN DID THE SCHOOLS IN FORSYTH COUNTY BECOME

FULLY INTEGRATED?

A IN 19--IT WAS BETWEEN THE I69-70 SCHOOL YEAR.

I BELIEVE 1970 IS MORE ACCURATE

a How LoNG HAS THE WINSTON-SALEM CITY CoUNCILo
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PRECISION REPORTTNG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.457]'

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BEEN ELECTED BY WARDS?

A AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER.

A WHEN DID BLACK CITIZENS BEGIN BEING ELECTED T

THAT CITY COUNCIL?

A IN 1946 OR '47, I RECALL, THE CHANCELLOR

EMERITUS OF WINSTON-5ALEM STATE, DR. KENNETH R. WILLIAMS,

WAS THE FIRST BLACK ELECTED TO A CITY COUNCIL ANYWHERE

IN THE SOUTT.IERN PART OF THE UNITED STATES. AND THAT WAS

IN r46 0R 147,

A WAS HE ELECTED FROM A PREDOT4INANTLY BLACK

WARD?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, HOW MANY_-WELL, HOW

MANY ALDERMEN ARE THERE?

A THERE ARE EIGHT ALDERMEN IN THE CITY OF

WI NSTON-SALEM.

q OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, HOW MANY OF THOSE

ALDERMEN HAVE BEEN BLACK?

A AFTER. EVERY ELECTION FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS,

EITHER HALF OR THREE BLACKS WOULD BE ELECTED. FROM I7O

TO '74 HALF OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN WAS BLACK. AND FRO

THE ELECTION 0F r81 TO PRESENTLY, HALF OF THE BOARD OF

ALDERMEN IS BLACK.

AND BETVIEEN THOSE TIMES, FROM I 7+ T0 I 77--WEL

FROM ,74 TO'81, THERE WERE THREE OUT OF THE EIGHT MEMB

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BLACK.

A OTHER THAN THE CITY COUNCIL OR THE BOARD OF

ALDERMEN, WERE THERE ANY OTHER BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS

BEFORE 1974?

A BEFORE 1974?

a YES?

A THERE WER.E NO BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS OUTSIDE

OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN.

A WERE THERE ANY BLACK PEOPLs ELECTED TO PUBLIC

OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY IN L974?

A YES. IN 1974 THERE WERE TWO BLACKS ELECTED

TO PUBLIC OFFICE.

a WHAT !'/AS THE POL I T I CAL CL IMATE I N FORSYTH

COUNTY IN L974?

A USUALLY IT IS A---

, *JUDGE PHI L.L I PS : ( T rurrNPOS I NG) WOUI-O YOU

MAKE THAT QUESTION A LITTLE MORE PRECISE FOR MY PURPOSES

AND MAYBE FOR THE I,JI TNESS I 3

MS. WINNER:

BY MS. WINNER:

SURE.

q HoI^, DID REPUBLICANS D0 IN THE L974 ELECTION I

FORSYTH COUNTY?

A WELL, T974 WAS A VERY, VERY BAD YEAR FOR

REPUBLICANS IN 1974 IN FOR.SYTH COUNTY.

a wHo WERE_THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO WERE ELECTED T0o
F l. O. &r 2ale3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PUBLIC OFFICE THAT YEAR?

A IN 1974 RICHARD C. ERWIN I,IAS ELECTED TO THE

STATE HOUSE. AND IN '74 BUFORD O. BAILEY WAS ELECTED TO

THE SCHOOL BOARD.

a NOI^I, HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE SCHOOL BOARD WERE

THERE ?

A EIGHT.

A HOW ARE THEY ELECTED?

A THEY ARE ELECTED AT LARGE.

A HOW LONG ARE THEIR TERMS?

A FOUR YEARS.

A ARE THEY ALL ELECTED AT ONCE?

A NO; STAGGERED TERMS.

A ALL RIGHT. DID MR. BAILEY. RUN'AGAIN IN'

1978?

. A HE RAN AGAIN IN 1978. YES.

A WHAT HAPPENED THEN?

A HE WAS DEFEATED.

a AT Tl-lAT TII"IE--AFTER HE WAS DEFEATED--WERE

THERE ANY BLACK PEOPLE ON THE BOARD?

A NO; THERE WERE NOT.

A DID HE RUN AGAIN AFTER THAT?

A HE RAN IN 1980.

A !"'HAT HAPPENED THEN?

A HE WAS D-EFEATED.

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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a WHAT?

A HE WAS DEFEATED IN 1980.

A HAS HE RUI,I AGAIN SINCE THEN?

A YES. HE RAN IN t B 2.

A WHAT HAPPENED THEN?

A HE WAS ELECTED.

A DID JUDGE ERWIN RUN FOR THE HOUSE AGAIN AFTER

1974?

r976?

A YES. HE RAN IN 176.

a WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM IN 176?

A HE WAS ELECTED IN 176.

A HOI^T DI D REPUBL I CANS DO I N FORSYTH COUNTY I N

A THERE WAS A SLIGHT PICK-UP. ANY PROGRESS

ELECTING THREE OR FOUR REPUBLICANS IN '76 WAS A SIGNIFI-

CANT IMPROVEMENT. IN Lg74 PRACTICALLY ALL REPUBLICANS

WERE THROWN OUT OF OFFICE.

A WERE ANY OTHER BLACKS ELECTED TO ANYTHING IN

1976?

A IN '76 THERE WERE TWO. AS I MENTIONED--WELL,

IN L976--CORRECT ME--WE ELECTED FOR THE FIRST TII'4E SINCE

THE TURN OF THE CENTURY A BLACK TO THE COUNTY COMMISSION-

ERS. AND THAT wAS MATzIE wooDRUFF (PHoNETIc).

a How LoNG wAS MS. WOODRUFF'S TERM?

A FOUR YEARS.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A HOW MANY COUNTY COMMISSIONERS ARE THERE?

A FIVE.

A ARE THEY ELECTED ALSO ON STAGGERED TERMS?

A YES.

a DID SHE RUN AGArN IN 1980?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT RACE?

A SHE WAS DEFEATED.

a DrD sHE RUN AGArN IN 1982?

A YES; SHE DID.

A WHAT HAPPENLD DURING THAT RACE?

A SHE WAS ELECTED.

a DID JUDGE ERWrN RUN AGAIN rN 1978?

A NO. LIUDGE ERWIN, IF I RECALL, STEPPED DOWN

TO TAKE AN APPOINTMENT TO A JUDGESHIP. AI.,ID HE WAS

REPLACED BY A BLACK, HAROLD KENNEDY.

a DID MR. KENNEDY RUr.l AGAIN IN 1978?

A VIHAT HAPPENED IN THAT ELECTION?

A HE WAS DEFEATED.

A DID ANY OTHER BLACK BESIDES I"lR. KENNEDY AND

MR. BAILEY RUN FOR ANY PUBLIC OFFICES IN FORSYTH COUNTY

IN L97B?

A YES. OTHER BLACKS DID RUN. THE FORMER MAYOR

pRo 'l'EM, c. c, Ross, RAN FoR THE STATE HOUSE AND WAS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DEFEATED IN '78. FOR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, I,'E HAD IN

,78 CECIL BUTLER, DONALD PHILLIPS AND R. LEWIS RAY. THEY

SOUGHT A SEAT ON THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND WERE

DE FEATED .

a DrD ANYONE ELSE RUN FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD?

A IN 178.-I RECALL MR. BAILEY RAN AGAIN IN '78

AND WAS DEFEATED IN 178.

A DID ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WIN?

A PARDON ME ?

A DID ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WIN IN L978? DID ANY

OF. THOSE BLACK CANDIDATES WIN IN 1978?

A NO. IN 1978 ALL BLACKS RUNNING FOR OFFICE

LOST IN FORSYTH COUNTY.

A HOW DID REPUBLICANS DO IN FORSYTH COUNTY IN

1978?

.. A IN 1978 I THII.IK THEY NNV HAVE MADE SOME SLIGHT

IMPROVEMEI{TS FROM ' 74 
'AND 

',76, IN THAT A REPUBLICAN WAS

ELECTED TO THE STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, REPRESEN-

TATIVE MARY PEGG. AND ALSO, STATE SENATOR ANNE BAGNAL

I,IHO WAS REPUBLICAN I^IAS, OF COURSE, ELECTED TO THE STATE

SENATE. THOSE VJERE SIGNIFICANT, IN MY OPINION.

IN ,78 ALSO, A REPUBLICAN, GRADY SWISHER, WAS

ELECTED TO THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. AND IN ,78 THERE

WERE TWO REPUBLICANS ELECTED TO THE SCHOOL BOARD.

A DID ANY OTHER BLACK CITIZENS RUN FOP. PUBLIC

F P. O, lor 2alas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OFFICE II'I FORSYTH COUNTY IN 1980 BESIDES MAIZIE

WOODRUFF?

A YES. IN 1980 FOUR BLACK CANDIDATES SOUGHT

oFFICE. MAIzIE wooDRUFF, oF couRSE, wAS sEEKING RE-

ELECTION TO THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. BUFORD

BAILEY WAS SEEKING TO GET BACK ON THE SCHOOL BOARD IN

1980. JEAN BURKINS WAS SEFKING TO GET ELECTED TO A

JUDGESHIP. AND ANN BROU/N KENNEDY WAS SEEKING ELECTION

TO THE STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. SHE WAS PRESENTLY

SITTING IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS A RESULT OF AN APPOINT

MENT TO FULFILL THE UNEXPIRED TERM OF JUDSON DERAMUS,

WHO HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO A .JUDGESHIP.

q AND DrD A MR. H. B. GOODSON ALSO RUN FOR

OFFI CE ?

A PARDON ME. IN 1990, H. B. GOODSON RAN FOR THE

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.

a WHAT HAPPENED TO MR. GoODSONTS CANDIDACY?

A IN THE PRIMARY-:THERE WERE THREE SEATS

AVAILABLE. AND IN THE FIRST PRIMARY MR. GOODSON RAN

FOURTH. HE RAN CLOSE ENOUGH TO CALL FOR A RUNOFF ELEC-

TION. AND HE DID NOT CALL FOR A RUNOFF ELECTION TO THE

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.

IF I I'IAY EXPOUND ON THAT, I PERSONALLY AS WELL

AS A DELEGATION OF BLACK LEADERS IN THE COMMUNITY WENT TO

MR. GOODSOI.I AND ASKED HIM NOT TO CALL FOR A RUNOFF IN THE,o

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,IAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-36't9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

' B0 couNTY coMMISSIONERS. ouR THINKING FoR THAT r^/AS

THAT WE HAD JEAN BURKENS RUNNING FOR.JUDGE--DISTRICT

COURT .JUDGE. I^/E HA\E NEVER IN OUR HISTORY ELECTED A

BLACK TO A DISTRICT COURT JUDGESHIP IN FORSYTH COUNTY.

AND MS. BURKENS LED THE FIRST PRIMARY IN A

CROWDED FIELD. THERE WOULD CERTAINLY BE A RUNOFF,

BECAUSE ANYTIME A BLACK IS IN A SECOND_-IF A WHITE CAI.I

QUALIFY FOR A SECOND RUNOFF AGAINST A BLACK, THEY

CERTAINLY WILL. AND USUALLY IT ENDS UP BEING SOME SORT

OF A RACIAL CONTEST.

, AND THE POINT I MAKE IS THAT WE FELT THAT WE

HAD THE BEST TIME IN OUR HISTORY TO qLECT A BLACK TO THE

DISTRICT COURT JUDGESHIP. HER OPPONENT--THE PERSON WHO

FTNISHED SECOND, MR. B. R. BRoWDER--WE FELT COULD NOT

MUSTER THE SUPPORT NECESSARY TO OVERTAKE HER IN A RUNOFF.

l/\lE EELT THERE WAS A SERIOUS CREDIBILITY PROBLEI,I. AND

OUR OI^JN ANALYSIS SHOWED US THAT MANY PEOPLE VOTED FOR

HIM THINKING THEY WERE VOTING FOR HIS BROTHER, WHO WAS

MORE ESTABLISHED IN THE COMMUNITY.

SO OUR THINKING WAS THAT IF MR. GOODSON CALLE

FOR A RUNOFF IN THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS RACE, THE PERSO

HE WOULD HAVE TO CHALLENGE--MR. NEIL BETTINGER, THE

PRESIDENT OF THE BUSINESS LEAGUE OF WINSTON-SALEM AND A

RESPECTED PERSON IN THE COMMUNITY.-COULD MARSHAL HIS

WHITE SUPPORTERS TO THE POLLS.

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PRECISION FEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND THEY PROBABLY--BEING OUT THERE VOTING

FOR MR. BETTINGER, WOULD PROBABLY GO ALONG AND VOTE FOR

BROWDER. SO OUR THINKING TO MR. GOODSON WAS IT WOULD

BE DIFFICULT TO BEAT MR. BETTINGER. BUT THE OTHER RISK

INVOLVED IS THAT IF YOU BRING BETTINGER SUPPORTERS TO TH

POLL, THAT WILL HELP MR. BROWDER. AND WE BEGGED HIM TO

CONSIDER FOREGOING THE RUNOFF ELECTION SO THAT IN THE

RUNOFF WE WOULD .JUST HAVE TWO CANDIDATES OUT THERE. AND

THAT WOULD BE MS. JEAN BURKENS AS WELL AS MR. B. R.

BROh'DER FOR THE DISTRICT COURT JUDGESHIP.

a AND WHAT HAPPENED---

(INreRpoSING) eXcUSE ME,

COUNSEL. IF THE COURT PLEASE, I MOVE TO STRIKE THAT

TESTIMONY AS BEING HIGHLY SPECULATIVE, BASED ON

PROBABILiTIES CERTAINLY BEYOND THIS WITNESS'ABILITY TO

PREDICT PROBABILITY. AND THE FORMAL GROUND IS THAT THE

TESTIMONY IS INCOMPETENT, IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.

MS. WINNER: . MAY I RESPOND TO THAT?

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY.

MS. WINNER: THE TESTIMONY.JUST

OFFERED IS NOT OFFERED TO SHOW THE,ACCURACY OF MR.

LITTLE'S PREDICTION OF I,IHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN THAT

ELECTION. I THINK THAT THAT IS NOT MATERIAL.

THE REASON THAT IT IS OFFERED IS TO SHOW THE

DILEMMA THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE IN IN FORSYTH COUNTY. THAT

MR. LEONARD:

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l ArN oFFtcE, RAIE|GH, 832.908s

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IS, THT:Y HAVE TO GET A BLACK PERSON NOT TO RUN IN A

RUNOFF IN ORDER TO PROTECT ANOTHER BLACK CANDIDATE;

AND THAT THAT SORT OF DILEMMA OF BLACK CANDIDATES ITSELF

IS MATERIAL, WHETHER OR NOT THEIR FEAR WAS ACCURATE_.OR

THEIR PREDICTION WAS ACCURATE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: I THINK WE UNDERSTAND TH

GENERAL PURPOSE FOR WHICH IT WAS OFFERED. AND WE }.,ILL

OVERRULE THE OBJECTION AND WILL NOT STRIKE IT. BUT WE

WILL CONSIDER IT AND MAKE A DETERI4INATION OF ITS PROBA-

TIVE FORCE.

LET ME SAY NOW THAT TT:'SEEMS TO ME TO BE

MARCHING FAIRLY CLOSE TO THE LINE OF RELEVAI.ICE. THERE

IS.JUST SO MUCH IN ALL OF THE NUANCES OF EVEP.Y POLITICAL

CAMPAIGN AND THE THINKING THAT IS RUNNING THROUGH THE

MIND OF EVERY CANDIDATE AND HIS SUPPORTERS AS IT MIGHT

BEAR,'UPON THE RACIAL PROBLEM AND THE POLITICAL SCENE

THAT THE COURT CAN ABSORB AND TRY TO DISENTANGLE.

MS. WINNER:

BY MS. WINNER:

YES, SIR. I UNDERSTAND.

a

A

WON THE

a

A

a

WAS MS. BURKENS SUCCESSFUL IN THE PRIMARY?

SHE WAS SUCCESSFUL IN THE PRIMARY. AND SHE

RUNOFF.

WAS SHE SUCCESSFUL IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?

NO. SHE WAS DEFEATED IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

WERE ANY BLACKS ELECTED TO ANY OFFICE IN

F P. O. &r 2alal
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICI, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FORSYTH COUNTY IN 19BO?

ALL BLACKS RUNNING IN I98O WERE DEFEATED.

HOW DID REPUBLIC.A.NS DO IN 1980?

IN 1980 REPUBLICANS MADE, AGAIN, SOME BREAK-

THROUGHS. THEY WON SOME JUDGESHIPS. THEY WERE SUCCESS-

FUL IN GETTING SOMEONE ELECTED TO THE STATE HOUSE AS I^IEL

AS THE STATE SENATE. THEY WERE JUST--THEY HAD SOME

MARGINAL SUCCESS. AND WHEN I SAY IIMARGINAL,II I GUESS I

.JUST MEAN THAT FORSYTH COUNTY PRIMARILY ELECTED DEMOCRATS

BUT IN SOME YEARS REPUBLICANS DO BETTER THAN

THEY NORMALLY WOULD. AND 1980, I THINK, WAS A BETTER

YEAR FOR THEM.

a Now, DURING 1974 AND 176 AND ',78 AND '80,

HOW DID WHITE DEMOCRATS DO?

A WHITE DEMOCRATS DID VERY WELL. THEY TEND TO

ALWAYS DO WELL IN FORSYTH COUNTY. 
'N'*' 

ARE A FEW

E XCEPT I ONS .

A DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR BLACK

CITIZENS TO HAVE BLACK REPRESENTATIVES?

A YES; I DO.

a t^,HY DO YOU THINK THAT?

A WELL, FIRST OF ALL, MY STUDIES IN GRADUATE

scHooL LooKING AT CITIZEN PARTICIPATION, YoU 1^IILL TEND

TO FIND THAT LOWER INCOME PEOPLE GENERALLY WILL RELATE

TO SOMEONE OF TI..IEIR-COLOR ELECTED TO REPRESENT THEM WHEN

A P. O. ld 6raC
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THEY ARE DEALING WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT FOR SERVICES)

SPECIFICALLY, WE FIND CONTINUOUSLY--IN FACT, UP UNTIL

1:]O TUESDAY MORNING I WAS DISCUSSING THIS DILEMMA WITH

OUR CITY MANAGER--OF HOW BLACKS WILL CALL BLACK ALDERMEN

IF THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GARBAGE SERVICE, LACK OF

RECREATION, STREETS BEING WASHED DOWN, SUBSTANDARD

HOUSING. THEY FEEL VERY UNCOMFORTABLE CALLING A DEPART-

MENT HEAD IN CITY HALL WHO THEY ANTICIPATE WILL BE WHITE.

AND AS A RESULT, THEY USE THEIR ALDERMEN IN

SOMEWHAT A FASHION AS I THINK THAT THEY USE THE MINISTER

OF THE CHURCH--ALMOST FOR ANYTHING THAT THEY HAVE TO DEA

WITH WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THEY PREFER TO GO THROUG

THEIR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES AS OPPOSED TO DEALING WITH

PEOPLE DIRECTLY.

AND THIS PP.IMARILY I,IOULD BE LOW INCOME PEOPLE

T,HAT_-A LOT IN MY WARD. I THINK HIGHER INCOME BLACKS TO

SOME DEGREE FEEL SLIGHTLY MORE COMFORTABLE IN THAT RELA-

TIONSHIP OR THAT APPROACH. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, WE

FIND THAT THINGS THAT IN MY OPINION COULD BE RATHER

EASILY HANDLF:D BY CALLING THE DEPARTMENT HEAD TO BE

DEALT WITH, PEOPLE WILL BOMBARD THOSE CALLS ON THE BLACK

ALDERMEN.

AND I N CONVERSAT I ONS W I TH MY \-^IH I TE COLLEAGUES

ON THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN, I FIND THAT THEY ARE NOT--WELL

.JUST TO A VERY SMALL DEGREE--BOTHERED WITH PROBLEMS OFo
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-1571

ProENtX. ARtZO}IA

THAT SORT. THE PROBLEMS THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO DEAL

WITH ARE GREATER. AND PEOPLE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY TE

TO CALL ON US MORE FOR SERVICES--OR AT LEAST TRY TO

I NTERVENE.

a Do you KNow WHAT WARD MOST OF THE REPRESEN-

TATIVES TO THE STATE HOUSE HAVE COME FROM IN THE LAST

FOUR OR SIX YEARS?

A YES.

A WHAT WARD IS THAT?

A THE VJE S T WARD.

A WHAT IS THE INCOME LEVEL OF THAT WARD?

A IT IS AFFLUENT. IT IS THE MOST AFFLUENT WARD

AND WHITE--IN THE CITY OF WINSTON-SALEM.

A DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO HAV

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS OR MULTI;MEMBER DISTRICTS FROM

FORSYTH COUNTY FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATI'VES?

A MY 
"*,O*O' 

PREFERENCE AND BELIEF WOULD BE TO

HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS.

A WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THAT?

A WELL, I BELIEVE IF THERE WAS A SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICT THAT HAD A SIGNiFICANT BLACK MA.JORITY THAT THE

BLACK COMMUNITY WOULD HAVE A VERY GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO

ELECT SOMEONE TO THE STATE HOUSE ON A CONSISTENT BASTS.

PREVIOUSLY, IT IS A HIT AND MISS TYPE OF

THING. t^,E ylIN IN '7-4. WE MAY WIN IN '76. WE LOSE IN

- 
P. O. Bu 2.16

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,r ArN OFF|CE, RAIETGH, 832.9085

779.36',t9 87 6.157 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

,78, LOSE IN '80. WE HAD A GOOD YEAR IN 182. BUT

THERE I S JUST NO CONS I STET'{CY . AND MOST OF THE T I ME, OUR

DELEGATION TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WILL END UP BEING

WHITE MALE AND MAYBE ONE WHITE FEMALE.

BUT WE NEED SOMEONE--WE NEED TO HAVE REPRESEN

TATION, IN MY OPINION, NOT .JUST IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

BUT IN ALL THE FACETS OF LOCAL OFFICE. AND HERETOFORE--

AND UNTIL, IN FACT, LAST YEAR.-FOR A THREE-YEAR PERIOD OR

FOR AT LEAST A TWO-YEAR PERIOD, THERE WERE NO BLACKS

ELECTED TO AIJYTHING IN FORSYTH COUNTY OUTSIDE OF THE

BOARD OF ALDERMEN. AND WE ARE ELECTED PRIMARILY BECAUSE

WE RUN IN WARDS.

AND MY OPINION IS THAT A SINGLE_MEMBER DIS-

TRICT WOULD SAY THAT 
'TE 

HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF

ENSURING THAT THERE WILL BE AT LEAST ONE BLACK DOWN IN

THE.GENERAL ASSEMBLY FROM THE FORSYTH COUNTY DELEGATION.

AND PRESENTLY WE DONTT KNOW..IT IS 'JUST UP IN THE AIR'

AND MOST OF THE TI}4ES, WE COME OUT LOSING.

aIFTHECITYCoUNCILHADBEENELECTEDATLARGE,

WOULD YOU HAVE WON?

A NO; I WOULD

a wHY NOT?

A THE REASON

FIRST OF ALL, I DONIT

REASON I DON'T THINK I

NOT.

I WOULDNT T HAVE WON I S BECAUSE,

THINK I COULD HAVE RUN. AND THE

COULD HAVE WON IS BECAUSE I HAVE25

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BEEN IN THE FOREFRONT OF A LOT OF COMMUNITY INVOLVEMEN

FOR BETTER HOUSING, HEALTH CONDITIONS. AND WHEN YOU ARE

A BLACK LEADER IN WINSTON-SALEM, YOU ARE VERY OUTSPOKEN.

AND AS A RESULT OF BEING oUTSPOKE[{, YOU BECOME CONTRO-

VERS IAL.

AND AS A RESULT, IT BECOMES MOST DIFFICULT TO

RECEIVE THE WHITE VOTE. AND SO USUALLY T'IHEN WE THINK OF

RUNNING SOMEONE AT LARGE, THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO

LOOK AT IS, IS THE PERSON QUALIFIED. AND THEN SECOND,

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SOMEONE THAT WILL NOT OFFEND THE

WHITE CITIZENS OR SOMEONE WHO HASNIT BEEN IN THE FORE-

FRONT OF COMMUNITY INVOLVEMEI.IT FOR PUBLIC HOUSING AND

THINGS OF THIS SORT.

SO WE TEND TO TRY--WHEN THINKING OF A COUNTY.

WIDE RACE, WE TEND TO LOOK FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN.JUST

MARG.INALLY IIIVOLVED, S.O THAT--WELL, TO COIN A PHRASE, WE

WANT A MODERATE O.R A LIGHTI{EIGHT. IN PAST TERI'IS, QUITE

FRANKLY, WE LOOK FOR COUNTYWIDE RACES SOME THAT ARE

PERCEIVED IN MANY INSTAI'.ICES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS

OUR COMPETITORS TO RUN FOR OFFICE.

MS. WlNNER: I DON I T HAVE ANY OTHER

QUESTIONS.

CROSS-EXAMINATION 9:37 A. M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

F P. O. lq 2tltt
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A MR. LITTLE, WHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME ACTIV

IN POLITICS?

A ELECTORAL POLITICS?

a No--PoLITICS IN GENERAL?

A MY FIRST INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS WOULD PROBABU

BE AROUND 1970 OR 1969--SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.

A DID YOU BELONG TO ANY POLITICAL PARTY PRIOR T

t97 0?

A POLITICAL PARTY?

a YES?

A NO. I DIDNIT BELONG TO A POLITICAL PARTY IN

THE EXTENT--I BELIEVE THAT THEY CHANGED MY.-LIKE I AM

33. AND THEY CHANGED THE VOTING REQUIREMENT, I THINK

FROM 2L TO 18 SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT TIME. SO I DONTT

THINK PRIOR TO THAT TIME I COULD,EVEN REGISTER TO VOTE.

SO.I WAS NOT A MEMBER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OR THE

REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THAT SENSE UNTIL AROUND 1970 OR I7L.

BUT I HAD AFFILIATIONS WITFI OTHER BLACK ORGANIZATIONS,

BUT NOT POLITICAL PARTIES.

A DID YOU EVER BELONG TO A GROUP THAT USED

''PARTYII IN ITS NAME OTHER THAN THE REPUBLICAN OR DEMO-

CRATIC PARTY?

A oH, YES.

A WHAT WAS THAT?

AIBELoNG-ToTHEBLACKPANTHERPARTY.IBELoN25

P. O. Ad 2l'16
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,l ArN OFFICE, RAIE|GH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PI,IOENIX, ARIZONA

TO THE BLACK POLITICAL ASSEMBLY. I BELONG TO_-WELL,

PRIMARILY THOSE TWO.

MR. LEONARD:

NESS, YOUR HONOR?

MAY I APPROACH THE WIT-

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU MAY .

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. LITTLE, THE COURT RECORD ALREADY SHOWS

THAT THIS LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT--HOUSE DISTRICT 39, WHICH

I S COMPOSED OF MOST OF FORSYTH COUNTY OTHER THAN THESE

TWO TOWNSHIPS, WHICH ARE SALEM CHAPEL AND BELEWS CREEK--

I9 25.I PERCEI'IT BLACK. THE ENTIRE DISTRICT IS 25.I

PERCENT BLACK; AND TI.IAT THERE ARE FIVE I4EMBERS FROM THE

DISTRICT, TWO OF WHOM ARE BLACK?

A YES.

A THAT WOULD INDICATE TO YOU THAT THE BLACKS

HAVE A GREATER PROPORTION OF THE DELEGATION FROM FORSYTH

COUNTY THAN IS THEIR VOTING STRENGTH; WOULD IT NOT?

A YES; THAT WOULD.-

A NOh,, HAVE YOU SEEN THIS PROPOSED LEGISLATIVE

DISTRICT AT ANY TIME BEFORE THIS COURT TRIAL?

A NO; I HAVE NOT.

A YOU NOW HAVE TWO BLACK REPRESENTATIVES FROM

FORSYTH COUNTY, MS. KENNEDY AND C. B. HOUSEP.?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

q I POINT OUT T0 YOU, MR. LITTLE, THAT ACCORDI

F ?. O. 8d rl6s
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

T0 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 5(A), t^JHICH I AM poINTING To,

ANNIE KENNEDY LIVES WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE PROPOSE

SINGLE-MEMBER DI STRICT?

UH-HUH.

DO YOU SEE THAT NUMBER ItgTI?

YES; I CAN.

THAT IS WHERE SHE LIVES. C. B. HOUSER LIVES

.JUST TO THE---

A (TNTTNPOS ING) WEST.

a ---WEST OF THE DISTRICT LrNE. HE IS DESIGNA

AS NUMBER 8 HERE. BUT YOU WILL NOTICE HE LIVES IN A

HEAVILY BLACK DISTRICT, IN THAT IT IS 65 PERCENT OR OVER

BLACK. IDO YOU NOTICE THAT?

YES; I DO.

NOW, I ASK YOU TO THINK ABOUT THIS QUESTION

CAREFULLY. IF THIS COURT WERE TO ADOPT THIS PLAN FOR

FORSYTH COUNTY NS OPPOSEO TO THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT

PLAN WHI CH I S NOW I N EFFECT -AND THE 198'+ ELECT I ONS WERE

HELD PURSUANT TO THIS PROPOSAL THAT IS BEFORE YOU,

GINGLES EXHIBIT 5(A), HOf,t MANY BLACKS DO you BELIEVE

WOULD BE ELECTED IN FORSYTH COUNTY TO THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTAT IVES?

MS. WINNER: I OB.JECT UNLESS HE WI LL

SAY HOW THE OTHER FOUR DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN. I DONIT

THINK THAT QUESTION CAN BE ANSWERED UNLESS THE REST OF

A

F P. O. &r 2tI{ls
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PRECTSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE COUNTY--UNLESS THE WITNESS KNOWS HOW THE OTHER FOUR

DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN IN THE REST OF THE COUNTY.

MR. LEONARD: COUNSEL, I DON'T CARE HO

THE OTHER FOUR DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN. I WOULD LIKE THE

WITNESS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION ANY WAY HE WANTS TO. HE

CAN ASSUME ANYTHING BEYOND THAT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT.

JUDGE BRITT: DIRECT YOUR REMARKS TO

THE COURT,

a

A

C OMFORTABLE

WOULD BE A

PLEASE, MR. LEONARD.

MR. LEONARD: YES, SIR.

BY MR. LEONARD:

CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?

TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, I WOULD FEEL RATHER

THAT WE WOULD ELECT ONE. AND I THINK THERE

POSSIBILITY FOR TWO.

WOULD THAT POSSIBILITY DEPEND UPON WHETHER OR

NOT THE BALANCE OF THE.LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT WAS SINGLE

MEMBER OR REMAINED A FOUR-MEMBER, MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICT?

A I THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE A CHANCE--A DECEN

CHANCE_-PERHAPS REGARDI.ESS. I COULDNIT SAY WITH ANY

DEGRTT OF CERTAINTY. IT IS ONLY SPECULATION. IT WOULD

DEPEND ON_-IF THE REST OF THE AREA WENT SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTP.ICT, IT WOULD DEPEND ON HOW-_SAY, FOR INSTANCE, THE

ONE WHERE C. B. HOUSER LIVES NOW_-HOW THAT DISTRICT WERE

DRAWN UP.

AND MOST OJ THAT PART THERE IS THE WARD THAT

E P. O. Bd 2tlts
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I R EPRE SENT, WH I CH WOULD I'.IOT BE I N THE S I NGLE_MEMBER

DISTRICT AS DESCRIBED--IF .THAT DISTRICT WERE DRAI^IN IN

SUCH A WAY CERTAINLY TO INCLUDE THAT PART AND TO THE

WEST OF THAT AREA, I WOULD SAY THAT THE POSSIBILITIES

WOULD BE AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER, THAN THEY PRESENTLY

EXIST FOR ELECTING TWO.

THE REASON I SAY THAT, TO CLARIFY, IS THAT

A5 YOU CORRECTLY POINTED OUT, WE ARE ABOUT 25 PERCENT OF

THE COUNTY I S POPULAT I ON. THE PROX iM I TY OF A"tlARD TO THE

WEST, I^IHERE MR. HOUSER PRESENTLY LIVES, TO THE WHITER

AREAS--THAT IS NEAR THE WAKE FOREST COLLEGE. AND IN MY

OPINION, THE WAKE FOREST COLLEGE AREA HAS SHOWN MORE OF

AN INCLINATION TO SUPPORT QUALIFIED BLACK CANDIDATES THA

THE OTHER PART OF THE CITY; SO THAT IN FACT, WHERE MR.

HOUSER LIVES, IN i970 A BLACK--Ai.lD ALMOST PRETTY MUCH

FOL,LOWING THE LINES OF THE LEGISLATIVE SINGLE-I'1EI.4BER

DISTRICT--A BLACK WAS ELECTED IN 1970 TO REPRESENT THAT

AREA ON THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN.

WHEN YOU SAY IITHE AREA,II IS THAT NOT THE AREA

TO THE WEST WITHIN THE CITY?

A YES--WELL, TO THE NORTHWEST, NOT QUITE THE

WEST--TO THE NORTHWEST.

A SO IT IS YOUR TESTIMONY THAT IF THIS SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRiCT WAS CREATED, THERE IS A GOOD LIKELIHOOT)

THAT A BLACK WOULD BE ELECTED FROM ANOTHER DISTRICT

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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PIloENIX, ARIZONA

CREATED OUTSIDE OF WHAT IS SHOWN HERE AS A SINGLE-MEMB

DISTRICT?

A MY TESTIMONY IS THAT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY--

AT LEAST ON THE LEVEL THAT WE PRESENTLY HAVE, IF NOT

GREATER--THAT A BLACK COULD BE ELECTED OUTSIDE OF WHAT I

DRAWN AS THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT ON THIS PARTICULAR

EXHI BIT.

AND IF THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT INCLUDED

THE REMAINING MAJORITY BLACK PRECINCTS AS THEY ARE SHOWN

HERE TO THE WEST OF THE SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICT?

A YES. I AM NOT GUARANTEEING IT. AND I

WOULDNIT WANT TO HEDGE MY MONEY ON ANY OF IT. BUT I

THINK THE POSSIBILITIES ARE AS STRONG AS THEY PRESENTLY

EXI ST.

A DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REASON WHY A BLACK PERSON

IN FORSYTH COUNTY WHO WANTS TO REGISTER TO VOTE CANNOT?

A WHO WANTS TO REGISTER TO VOTE CANNOT? I THIN

IN ALL HONESTY--IN FORSYTH.COUNTY WE HAVE, I WOULD THINK,

ONE OF THE MOST AGGRESSIVE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVES

ANYWHERE IN NORTH CAROLINA. AND WE TRY TO DO IT DOOR TO

DOOR

WE DO INCUR PROBLEMS WITH CONVINCING PEOPLE

OF THE NEED TO VOTE AND WHETHER OR NOT IF THEY VOTE IT

WILL DO ANY GOOD. SO INSOFAR AS PHYSICAL BARRIERS, I AM

NOT SO CERTAIN THAT_INSOFAR AS INACCESSIBILITY OF VOTER

F P, O. lor l'alas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REGISTRARS OR REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS THAT THAT IS

AN ACUTE PROBLEM AT THIS POINT. I THINK WE HAVE BEEN A

LITTLE MORE ENLIGHTENED THAN SOME OF THE OTHER COUNTIES

INSOFAR AS--IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, AT LEAST. WE HAD A

PROBLEM PREVIOUSLY. BUT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, WE HAVE

HAD MORE REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS.

AND WE TRY TO GO OUT--NOT .JUST RIGHT BEFORE

AN ELECTION. WE ARE OUT THERE ALMOST--JUST ALL THE TIME,

YOU KNOW.

so THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION IS rrNotr"

. A I^IELL, THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS THAT THE

BARRIERS ARE NOT PERVASIVE AT THIS POINT; THAT THEY--AN

EFFORT CAN BE MADE. ONE HAS A DECENT POSSIBILITY OF

BEING ABLE TO REGISTER. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE OTHER THING

DONE. BUT IT IS NOT HARD LIKE IT USED TO BE WHEN MY

MOTI'IER CAME UP.

a DO YOU HAVE ANY

ARE GOING TO BE PERVASIVE

A NO. I HAVE NO

ARE GOING TO'--

REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY

TN THE NEXT ELECTION?

REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY

a(trurenposrNc)oRTHEELECTIONAFTERTHAT?

AIFTHETRENDCoNTINUES.:AND'.hlESEE.REVERSING

OF TRENDS. IF THE TREND CONTINUES TO ALLOW MORE REGIS-

TRATION COMMISSIONERS TO BE OUT THERE AND REGISTRATION

IN THE LIBRARIES AN? THINGS OF THIS SORT, I THINK THAT

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?, O. &r e3ta!

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. A AtN OFF|CE, RAIE|GH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PItoENIX, ARIZONA

IT WILL--I DON'T SEE

IF IT CONTINUES THERE

THERE OR VERY FEW.

THE TREND REVERSING iTSELF. BUT

WILL BE NO PERVASIVE BARRIERS OUT

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REASON WHY A BLACK PERSON

IN FORSYTH COUNTY WHO WANTS O VOTE IS UNABLE TO VOTE?

WELL, ONE THING YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT

TRANSPORTAT ION FROM TIME TO TIME DOES BECOME A PROBLEI,I.

NOW, OF COURSE, IN EVERY MAJOR ELECTION YOU WILL HAVE

CARS OUT THERE FROM CANDIDATES AND THINGS OF THIS SORT.

SOMET IMES PEOPI-E WI LL CALL. I MAN VOT I NG PLACES ON

ELECTION DAY AND AS A RESULT HAVE PEOPLE WHO SOMETIME

GET MIXED OVER.

AND THE POINT I MAKE IS THAT SOMETIME PEOPLE

LIVE TO SOME DEGREE A MILE OR TWO MILES FROM THE POLLING

PLACE. AND IN THAT INSTANCE THEY MUST DEPEND ON SOMEONE

COMING OUT TO GET THEM. AND IN A LOT OF INSTANCES, THAT

IS A--I MEAN, THEY caN eer rHAT RIDE. SOMETIMES IT IS

s LOPPY . THE ORGAN I zAT I oN I s- Nor I^JHAT I T sHouLD BE. AND

PEOPLE HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME VOTING. BUT FOR THE MOST

PART, THAT I S NOT TRUE.

A ARE BLACKS ACTIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN

FORSYTH COUNTY?

A YES; THEY ARE.

a DO' THEY HOLD OFFICES?

A YES; THEY DO.

'O

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

(pnusr. )

A MR. LITTLE, WHEN DID YOU FIRST COMMUNICATE

THE FORSYTH COUNTY DELEGATION TO THE LEGISLATURE THAT

ELECTED IN I98O THAT YOU WERE OPPOSED TO MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

I BECAME AWARE THAT REPRESENTATIVE KEN

SPAULDING OF DURHAM WAS INTENDING TO INTRODUCE SOME SORT

OF LEGISLATION THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED PEOPLE OR US TO

HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN FORSYTH COUNTY, I GUESS.

I CANIT GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC DATE. I .JUST KNOW RIGHT

BEFORE OR RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEBATE OVER WHETHER

OR NOT WE WOULD DIVIDE UP THE COUNTY INTO SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICTS. AND THAT WAS, OF COURSE, LAST YEAR.

a so IT wAs IN 1982 THAT YOU BECAME AWARE OF THE

FACT THAT THERE WAS AN ISSUE CONCERNING MULTI-MEMBER

VERSUS SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

WELL, I HAVE BEEN AWARE OF THE ISSUE. WE HAVE

TALKED ABOUT THE NECESSITY JTO HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DIS-

TRICTS IN THE GENER,AL ASSEMBLY, ON THE COUNTY COMMISSION-

ERS, ON THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THROUGHOUT FOR THE LAST 10

TO 15 YEARS, BECAUSE THERE IS .JUST VERY LITTLE POSSI-

B I LITY_-OR AT T IMES, WE .JUST CAN I T ELECT ANYONE AT LARGE.

SO WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT. QUITE FRANKLY,

WE .JUST NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD HAPPEN. WE JUST THOUGHT

WE WOULD JUST NEVER GET BEYOND THE TALKING STAGES OF IT.

TO

WAS

F P. O. eor 2.lCS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND QUITE HONESTLY, I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE IT GET THIS

FAR IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

WHEN I FOUND OUT ABOUT IT, I SAID, IIHEY, IT

IS GREAT,'I BECAUSE I HAD DISCUSSED IT WITH A LOT OF

BLACK LEADERS, MINISTERS AND OTHERS. AND SO WHEN I FOU

OUT ABOUT IT, I IMMEDIATELY CALLED REPRESENTATIVE

SPAULDING AND ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING I COULD DO TO

FACILITATE THE PROCESS.

A DID YOU ASK THE DURHAM ROUND TABLE TO TAKE AN

OFFICIAL POSITION OPPOSING MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS AND

FAVORI NG SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A THE DURHAM---

a (tNrEnPoSING) I AM SoRRY; THE---

A (TNTCNPOSING) I ASKED REPRESENTATIVE KEN

SPAULDING. AND I CALLED THE---

a (rrurrRposl.Nc) excusE ME. I MADE A MISTAKE.

LET ME WITHDRAW THAT QUESTION. YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN FORSYTH COUNTY;I\ARE YOU NOT?

A YES; I AM.

a DrD YOU GO TO THE CoUNTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

AND ASK THEM TO TAKE A POSITION FAVORING SINGLE_MEMBER

DISTRICTS FOR FORSYTH COUNTY?

A NO. I DID NOT PERSONALLY DO THAT.

A DID YOU EVER SEEK TO CALL THE FORSYTH COUNTY

LEGISLATIVE DELEGATJON TOGETHER TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE WIT

F P. O. Bd 2tlct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ANIZONA

THEM ?

YE S.

WHEN WAS THAT?

IT WAS WHILE THE DEBATE WAS GOING ON IN THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY ABOUT PROPOSED DiSTRICTS. I CALLED THE

SENATOR FROM OUR AREAz-SENATOR DICK BOND, WHO WAS SERVI

ON THE COMMITTEE TO DISCUSS THAT=-AND TOLD HIM THAT THE

OTHER BLACK MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN AS WELL AS

THE BLACK MINISTERIAL ASSOCIATION IN WINSTON-SALEM

STRONGLY FAVORED SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE STATE

HOUSE.

I SENT A TELEGRAM TO REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING.

AND WE AASO CALLED REPRESENTATIVE MARGARET TENNILLE TO

LET HER KNOW OF OUR OVERWHELMING SENTIMENTS FOR THAT.

AND I ALSO CALLED--WELL, HE WASNIT THERE AT THAT TIME.

BUT. I CALLED C. B. HOUSER ABOUT IT.

A C. B. WASNTT A MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATURE?

NO. HE WASNIT A MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATURE.

BUT I KNEW HE WAS RUNNING FOR THE LEGISLATURE. AND SO I

THOUGHT I WOULD, YOU KNOW, GIVE HIM A CALL.

WHAT POSITION DID C. B. HOUSER TAKE?

WHEN I INFORMED MR. HOUSER OF THE SENTIMENTS

FROM THE BLACKS ON THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN AND THE BLACK

MINISTERS, HE TOLD ME HE HAD NOT LOOKED AT IT PROPERLY;

- 
P. O. lor ,alG!

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFIG, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 e76-1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

SINGLE-MEMBER DI STFI ICT.

AND I ASKED HIM, 'rwELL, wHy DoN'T you rlAKE A

STATEMENT TO THAT EFFECT?'I AND HE SAID WHEN HE FIRST

GOT A GLIMPSE OF THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT--AND HE TOLD

ME IN THE CONVERSATION THAT HE REALLY HADNIT STUDIED IT
THAT FAR OR THOROUGHLY; BUT THAT HE--WITH THE INFORMATIo

I HAD GIVEN HIM OF THE SENTIMENTS AND HOW WE FELT IN THE

COMMUNITY, MR. HOUSER SAID THAT HE AGREED WITH THAT.

BUT HE DIDNIT KNOW HOW TO TAKE A POSITION TODAY THAT WAS

CONTRARY TO WHAT HE HAD SAID YESTERDAY.

COULD

MEMBER

BUT HE !'/OULD TRY TO FIGURE oUT A WAY THAT HE

STATE HIS OPPOSITION_-HIS PREFERENCE.-FOR SINGLE-

DISTRICTS. THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

I MAY ADD, COUNSEL, THAT AFTER THAT--THAT

CONVERSATION THAT REPRESENTATIVE HOUSER AND I HAD AND

OTHERS TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT-.I THINK HE LATER FELT

THAT IT WOULD BE POLITICALLY BAD FOR HIM TO TAKE A STAND

IN FAVOR OF SINGLE-MEMBER DI.STRICTS BECAUSE HE SAID HE

THOUGHT IT WOULD COST HIM WHITE VOTES. AND HE NEEDED

WHITE VOTES TO WIN. SO HE BACKED AWAY FROM WHAT HE HAD

A WHEN DID THAT CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?

A AS I STATED EARLIER, IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF

THE DEBATE IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT-

AT THE TIME ON THE FI.9OR, THEY WERE DEBATING WHETHER TO.-

Ft P. O. lor ,'tac
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,r AtN oFFtcE, RALE|GH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PIioENIX, ARIZONA

T HE F I RST I TEI,I TO COME UP, AS I RECALL, IVAS THE S I NGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICT CONCEPT IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY. AND WE

KNEI,J STATE SENATOR RICHARD BARNES WAS ON THAT COMMITTEE.

SO WE TALKED AND TRIED TO RALLY PEOPLE TO

START SUPPORTING MECKLENBURG COUNTY, BECAUSE WE FELT IF

WE COULD GET IT IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY OUR CHANCES OF

WINNING A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN FORSYTH COUNTY WOULD

BE ENHANCED. SO IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEBATE. I

THINK IT WAS GOING TO BE THE NEXT DAY OR TWO DAYS LATER

WHEN THEY WERE GOING TO ACTUALLY VOTE ON IT IN COMMITTEE.

MAY ADD THAT SENATOR BARNES DTD AGREE TO

SUPPORT A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT CONCEPT. REPRESENTATIVE

TENNILLE STATED SHE UNDERSTOOD OUR THEORIES. BUT HER

POSITION WAS SHE DIDNI T LIKE THE IDEA BECAUSE YES-.WE

WOULD HAVE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. BUT IT ALSO I4OULD

HEL,P REPUBLICANS TO GET ELECTED. AND AS A RESULT OF

HELPING REPUBLICANS,.SHE FELT IT WOULD BE A BAD IDEA.

MR. LEONARD: - THANK YOU, MR. LITTLE.

MS. WINNER: I HAVE TWO OR THREE

QUESTIONS. AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE RECORD TO REFLECT

THAT PLAiNTIFFSI EXHIBIT 5, THE MAP, IS NOT A PROPOSED

DISTRICT, BUT AN ILLUSTRATIVE DISTRICT.

I DONTT THINK IT IS RELEVANT TO MR. LEONARDIS

QUESTION. BUT I JUST WANTED IT TO BE CLEAR IN THE RECORD

THAT THAT IS NOT A PROPOSED DISTRICT, BUT .JUST AN'!
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ILLUSTRATION OF A POSSIBLE DISTRICT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL2 THE RECoRD wILL

DISCLOSE, IF ONE GOES FAR ENOUGH BACK INTO IT, WHAT

EXHIBIT WHATEVER IT IS DEMONSTRATES. AND TO THE EXTENT

THERE IS ANY DISCREPANCY BETWEEN WHAT THE EXHIBIT IS ON

THE RECORD AND AS INDICATED IN ANY CHARACTERIZATION OF

11, THE EXHIBIT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

MS. WI NtIER: YES, S IR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE CAN MAKE THAT

DETERMINATION.

REDI RECT EXAMINAT I oN 9:55A.M.

BY MS. WINNER:

A LET ME JUST ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS.

WAS SENATOR BARNES THEN A REPRESENTATIVE?

- A YES. SENATOR BARNES WAS IN THE STATE HOUSE.

AND IT WAS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WOULD LEAVE THE STAT

HOUSE AND WOULD RUN FOR THE STATE SENATE.

a A MOMENT AGO yOU SAID THAT--YOU WERE TALKTNG

ABOUT REGISTRATION DRIVES. AND YOU SAID I'I,JE CONDUCT

REGISTRATION DRIVES. !I WHO IS THE IIWEII IN THAT SENTENCE?

A WELL, WHEN I SAY 'IWE,II I MEAN THE NAACP. WE

HAVE A FIFTH DISTRICT YOUTH CAUCUS. WE ORGANIZED THE

BLACK KNIGHT'CLUBS. EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN, WE TRY TO

DEAL WI TH TO REGI STE.IT PEOPLE.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRTBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONAF P. O, Bd 2tras

lJ R.brol\ xo& c.@[m aTarr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832,9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: MR. I,JITNESS?

THE WITNESS: I AM SORRY.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YoU woULD CoNFINE YoU

ANSWER, NOW, TO THE QUESTION AS IT WAS PUT: WHOM DID YO

MEAN WHEN YOU SAID IIWEII IN CONNECTION T\tITH THAT?

THE WITNESS: WHEN I SAY IIWEII--OKAY.

THANK yOU, YOUR HONOR. ntr{Er WOULD BE VARIOUS BLACK

ORGANTZATIONS T,HAT ARE INTERESTED IN REGISTRATION.

MS. WINNER: I DON I T HAVE ANY OTHER

QUESTIONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.

EXAMINATION 9:57 A. M.

BY LIUDGE PHI LL I PS :

A LET ME ASK YOU, IF I MAY, MR. LITTLE: HOW

WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE DEGREE OF POLITICAL INVOLVE-

MENT OF BLACKS IN THE CITY ELECTIONS SINCE THEY HAVE

BEEN WARD-BASED IN WINSTON-SALEM?

A THEY I.IAVE ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY.

A IS IT PRETTY HEAVY?

A YES--IN THAT I FEEL THAT THE WARD RACES---

a (rrurrnPosING) eRe rHERE vIGoRoUS CONTESTS

BETWEEN BLACK CANDIDATES?

A YES. THERE ARE VIGOROUS CONTESTS BETWEEN

BLACK CANDIDATES.

F P. O. lq ltl6ll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A

a

A

a

DISTRICT

I T, S INCE

A

a

CHANCES

GO W ITH

YES--MARGARET TENNI LLE.

WHAT IS HER RACE?

WH I TE.

AND SHE TOOK THE POSITION ON THE SINGLE-MEMBER

QUESTION THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER NOT TO ADOPT

IT WOULD ENHANCE THE CHANCES OF REPUBLICANS?

CORRECT.

SO AS BETWEEN ENHANCING THE RIGHTS OR THE

OF THE BLACKS AND THE REPUBLICANS, SHE CHOSE TO

THE SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS?

. A AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS AND AGAINST THE BLACK

A AGAINST THE BLACKS, BUT INSTEAD OF GOING FOR

THE BLACKS?

A YES. AND QUITE FRANKLY, YOUR HONOR, IF I MAY

EXPOUND, THAT WAS A DILEMM THAT WE ALL CONSIDERED. AND

WE LOOKED AT IT AND SAID, ''WE NEED REPRESENTATION. AND

WE DONIT NEED IN I9B3II---

(TNTTRpOSING) TOU WERE wILLING TO TAKE YOUR

CHANCES AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS?

A OH, YES. BUT WE L'UST WANTED TO BE IN THE

HALLS SO THAT WE COULD BE A PART OF THE DEBATE. AND

RIGHT NOW,. IT IS A HIT AND MISS PROPOSITION. AND MOST

OF THE TIMES, WE MISS--AS WITH THE SCHOOL BOARD, THE

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. USUALLY WE--AS I STATED, UNTIL

LAST YEAR BLACKS WEry: NOT ELECTED TO ANY OFFICE IN

F P. O. Bor 2tlB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFIG, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FORSYTH COUNTY OUTSIDE OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEI.I.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do YoU THINK THE DEMo-

CRATS AND REPUBLICAT.IS IN FORSYTH COUNTY MIGHT ALSO SAY

THAT IN RECENT HISTORY IT HAS BEEN A HIT OR MISS PROPO-

SITION FOR THEM AS DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS?

THE WI TNESS : OH, FOR REPUBLICANS IT

HAS BEEN LESS THAN A HIT AND MISS. FOR DEMOCRATS, IT

HAS BEEN ALMOST A SURE THING.

BY JUDGE DUPREE:

A WELL, THE POINT I WANTED TO GET STRAIGHT WAS

THAT THERE ARE FACTORS WHICH INFLUENCE THE THINKING OF

LEGISLATORS AND THOSE PEOPLE WHOSE BUSINESS IT IS TO

DRAW DI STRICTS?

A YES, SIR.

q OTHER THAN JUST RACE?

. A OH, YES; YE.S. I BELIEVE THERE ARE.

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : DO COUNSEL DES I RE TO

PURSUE THE MATTERS THAT THE-COURT HAS RAISED WITH THIS

W I TNESS ?

MS. WINNER: NO, SIR.

MR. LEONARD: NO, YOUR HONOR.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MR. WITNESS.

YOU MAY STEP DOWN.

(WITNESS EXCUSED. )

MS. WINNER: MAY I.4R. LITTLE LEAVE THE

F P. O. !q 1tlat
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PRECTSlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COURTROOM? MAY MR. LITTLE BE EXCUSED?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD?

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO OBllECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU ARE EXCUSED.

MS. WINNER:

WI LLIE LOVETT.

THE PLAINTIFFS CALLS

(wn rReueoru,

WILLIE LOVETT

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS

roulows : )

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T i O N 10:02 A.M.

BY MS. WINNER:

A ST\ATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE.

A WI LL I E LOVETT.

. a WHAT IS YO.qR ADDRESS?

A    .

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A I HAVE LIVED IN DURHAM COUNTY A TOTAL OF 12

YEARS--SIX ON ONE OCCASION AND ABOUT SIX AGAIN THE

SECOND TIME.

A WHEN WERE THE YEARS OF THE FIRST OCCASION?

A FROM '66 TO r72;'AND FROM '76 TO THE PRESENT

TIME--YEAH; t76 TO THE PRESENT TIME.

A WHERE ARE. YOU EMPLOYED?

F P. O. ld 2tttll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ItiAlN OFF|CE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IBM CORPORATION, RESEARCH TRIANGLE PARK.

a WHAT IS YOUR POSTTION THERE?

A IhIDUSTRIAL ENGINEER.

a cAN you DESCRIBE FoR THE COURT YOUR INVOLVE_

MENT IN POLITICS IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A PRESENTLY I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE DURHAM COMMITTE

ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE. AND I HAVE HELD THAT

POSITION FOR TWO AND A HALF OR THREE YEARS. BEFORE THAT,

I WAS CO-CHAIR OF THE POLITICAL COMMITTEE FOR A COUPLE O

YEARS.

I WAS ALSO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEMOCRATIC

PARTY FROM 1977 TO 1979 AND THE FIRST VICE CHAIR FROM

179 TO rB1.

A WHAT IS THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE

ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE?

.. A THAT IS A NUMBER THAT I CANIT GIVE YOU BECAUSE

I DONIT KNOW. THE WAY WE OPERATE IS THAT ANY PERSON WHO

IS INTERESTED CAN PARTICIPATE IN THE ORGANIZATION, CAN

GET ON THE MAILING LIST BY ATTENDING THE MEETINGS. SO

WE DONIT HAVE MEMBERSHIP DUES AS SUCH. SO 'THAT IS

DIFFICULT TO ASSESS.

THE IMPACT AND THE RESPONSIVENESS IN THE

COMMUNITY TO THE DURHAM COMMITTEE AND ITS RECOMMENDATION

AND ITS PROGRAMS IS RATHER MASSIVE.

A I\,HAT IS T_HE LEVEL OF ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP?

F L O. lq 6laa
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TMNSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571

PI'|oENIX, ARIZONA

A WELL, AT A TYPICAL MEETING WITH NO MAJOR

ISSUE, WE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE FRoM 50 TO 60 pEOpLE. WHEN

THERE ARE HOT ISSUES, WE HAVE DIFFICULTY FINDING ROOMS

TO ACCOMMoDATE THE pE0pLE--yOU KNOW, THAT ARE TypICALLy

AVAILABLE. SO IT DEPENDS ON THE PROGRAM AND THE ISSUE

I NVOLVED.

HAVE 'YOU ALSO BEEN INVOLVED IN WORKING FOR

POLITICAL CANDIDATES?

A I HAVE PERSONALLY NOT BEEN INVOLVED VERY

ACTIVELY IN ANY PARTICULAR CANDIDATE. WE DO WORK VERY

HARD FOR THOSE CANDIDATES THAT ARE ENDORSED IN TERMS OF

GETTING OUT THE VOTE FOR ALL OF THE CANDIDATES, BUT NOT

SPECIFICALLY A CANDIDATE OUT OF A FIELD.

CAN YOU DESCRI BE :THE' LEVEL OF'SCHOOL INTE-

GRATION IN DURHAM COUNTY?

.A IN DURHAM WE HAVE TWO DISTINCT SYSTEMS. WE

HAVE A CITY SYSTEM THAT IS PROBABLY 85 TO 90 PERCENT

BLACK. WE HAVE A COUNTY SYSTEM THAT IS ABOUT 30 PERCENT

BLACK, 70 PERCENT WHITE. WE HAVE BASICALLY FLIGHT FROM

ONE SYSTEM TO ANOTHER. AND BASICALLY THE SYSTEMS--I

WOULD VIEW THE SYSTEM AS NOT REALLY INTEGRATED AS SUCH.

A WHAT ARE THE BOUNDARIES OF THE DURHAM CITY

SCHOOL SYSTEM?

A THE CITY SCHOOL SYSTEM IS BASICALLY THE INNER

CITY. AND WHAT HAPPENS IS AS THE CITY ANNEXES AREAS, THE

F P. O. lq rtas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PEOPLE IN

SYSTEM.

LOOK AT A

COMPR I S ED

a

TION IN

A

B ECAUSE

WITH THE

CHURCHE S

THE ANNEXED AREA REMAIN TN THE COUNTY SCHOOL

AND WE CALL THAT CITY OUT. SO IF YOU WERE TO

MAP OF DURHAM, THE CITY SCHOOL SYSTEM WOULD BE

OF THE INNER CITY FOR THE MOST PART.

WHAT IS THE LEVEL OR EXTENT OF SOCIAL INTEGRA:

DURHAM COUNTY?

WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT IN GENERAL TERMS

THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS. BUT LETIS START

CHURCH. BASTCALLY, WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS THE

ARE BASICALLY BLACK CHURCHES AND WHITE CHURCHES.

AS FAR AS CIVIC CLUBS ARE CONCERNED, WE HAVE

SOME DEGREE OF PARTICIPATION FROM BLACKS. BUT PRIMARILY

THOSE IN THE BUSINESS ARENA PARTICIPATE. AND THEY WOULD

BE IN VERY LIMITED NUMBERS.

AS FAR AS LIVING PATTERNS AND HOUSING IS

CONCERNED, WE HAVE DI?TINCT AREAS OF THE CITY THAT ARE

CONSIDERED MINORITY IN THE SOUTHEASTERN SECTION OF THE

CITY AND THE EASTERN PART OF THE CITY. AND THERE ARE

SOME NEIGHBORHOODS IN DURHAM THAT ARE EXCLUSIVELY WHITE.

AND EFFORTS ARE MADE TO KEEP THEM THAT WAY.

A ARE THERE COUNTRY CLUBS OR SOCIAL CLUBS IN

DURHAM COUNTY?

A THERE ARE SOCIAL CLUBS AND COUNTRY CLUBS. AND

FOR THE MOST PART, FEW EXCEPTIONS, THOSE TEND TO BE

EXCLUSIVELY WHITE OR- EXCLUSIVELY BLACK DEPENDING ON THE

A P. O. lor rllis
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TMNSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CLUB.

A IS THERE PUBLIC HOUSING IN DURHAM COUNTY OR IN

THE CITY OF DURHAM?

A THERE ARE SEVERAL PUBLIC HOUSING PROJECTS IN

DURIJAM. MOST OF THOSE-_PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT EXISTED

ORIGINALLY-_ARE IN THE SOUTHEASTERN SECTION OF THE CITY.

THERE ARE SOME 10,000 RESIDENTS IN DURHAM COUNTY WHO

RESIDE IN PUBLIC HOUSING. I WILL MAKE THE DISTINCTION

HOUSING FOR THE ELDERLY AND OTHER PUBLIC HOUSING.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PUBLIC HOUSING IN GENERAL,

F9R THE MOST PART MOST OF THE RESIDENTS ARE BLACK.

A AND IN THOSE PARTS OF TOWN.-WHAT IS THE RACIAL

COMPOSITION OF THE PARTS OF TOWN THAT YOU SAID THAT

PUBLIC HOUSING WAS IN?

A I WOULD SAY THAT THE--AND I AM GUESSING. I

WOULD SAY THAT ABOUT 75 PERCENT OF THE PROJECTS WOULD BE

IN THE SOUTHEASTERN 
'UCTION 

OF THE CITY

A AND THAT IS THE.BLACK SECTION?

A EAST AND SOUTHEASTERN..EXACTLY.

A HAS THERE BEEN AN EFFORT TO GET PUBLIC HOUSING

IN OTIIER SECTIONS OF THE CITY? ,

A YES. THE PUBLIC HOUSING THAT WE HAVE NOW THAT

WOULD BE CONSIDERED OUTSIDE OF THE SOUTHEASTERN AND

EASTERN PART OF THE CITY RESULTED FROM INTENSIVE EFFORTS

TO HAVE SOME DEGREE 
-OF 

DISPERSAL OF PUBLIC HOUSING

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PROJECTS.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE AREA AROUND DUKE UNIVER-

SITY A COUPLE OF PROJECTS WERE PURCHASED FROM DUKE AND

MADE PUBLIC HOUSiNG PROJECTS AS A RESULT OF THAT EFFORT.

WE ALSO HAVE A FEW TURNKEY PROJECTS IN DURHAM.

THESE, AGAIN, RESULTED FROM MASSIVE EFFORTS TO GET THESE

PROJECTS DI SPERSED.

HOW ARE THE EFFORTS RECEIVED BY THE COMMUNITY?

WELL, IN THE SEVENTIES--MID-SEVENTIES--THERE

WERE VERY VOLATILE AND INTENSIVE ISSUES IN THE COMMUNITY

AROUND PUBLIC HOUSING AND THE LOCATION OF SITES AND

PROBLEMS IN PUBLIC HOUSING. AND I THINK THE RECORD WOULD

SHOW THAT THOSE WERE MA.JOR ISSUES IN DURHAM AT THAT TIME.

WHAT I,'AS THE RACE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE

OPPOSING THE DISPERSAL OF PUBLIC HOUSING?

. A MOST OF THE PERSONS WHO OPPOSED TI]E LOCATION

OF PUBLIC HOUSING IN THEIR AREAS WERE THOSE AREAS THAT

TEND TO BE MIDDLE CLASS IN NATURE. THOSE AREAS TEND TO

BE WHITE OR BLUE-COLLAR WHITE AREAS IN THE CITY OF DURHA

WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT INTEGRATION

OR SEGREGATION IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A BLACKS ARE EMPLOYED IN MOST INDUSTRIES AND IN

MOST COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY IN DURHAM. WE HAVE SOME MAJOR

EMPLOYERS, SUCH AS DUKE UNIVERSITY, DUKE HOSPITAL, THAT

HAS AppROXIMATELy 17r_000 EMpLOYEES. THERE IS A TENDENCY

F t. O. 3q ttal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN THE CASE OF LARGE EI4PLOYERS TO HAVE I,IOST OF THE BLAC

EMPLOYEES TN THE LOWER ECHELON JOBS.

WE HAVE TOBACCO COMPANIES--MAJOR TOBACCO

COMPANIES--L T M AND AMERICAN. AND JUST RECENTLY AMERI.

CAN TOBACCO COMPANY HAS EXPERIENCED SOME LEGAL PROBLEMS

RELATIVE TO SOME OF THEIR PRACTICES IN THE PAST RELATING

TO THE TREATMENT AND PROMOTION AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR

BLACK EMPLOYEES.

WE CURRENTLY HAVE ONGOING BATTLES A\ID JUST

THIS WEEK A PROBLEM WITH DURHAM COUNTY GENERAL HOSPITAL

THAT HAS SOME 1,800 EMPLOYEES--A CONSTAN'r BATTLE OF THE

WAY EMPLOYEES ARE TREATED--LACK OF PROMOTION OPPORTUNIT]

AND SO ON. SO I WOULD CHARACTERIZE---

(TTTTRpoSING) wneru YoU SAY THE wAY EMPLoYEES

ARE TREATED, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ALL EMPLOYEES?

. A SPECIFICALLY BLACK EMPLOYEES--DISCRIMINATION

SUITS, DISCRIMINATION COMPLAINTS. SO WHAT I AM REALLY

SUGGESTING TO YOU IS THAT DI,TRHAM MAY BE--THERE IS THE

PRESENCE OF BLACK EI4PLOYEES IN MOST INDUSTRIES. BUT WHAT

I AM SAYING TO YOU IS THAT WE HAVE PROBLEMS--IS BASICALLY

WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU.

WHAT IS THE DISTRIBUTION OF MUNICIPAL OR CITY

SERVICES IN DURHAM?

A CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC I,/ITH THE QUESTION?

I DONr T QUITE---

F ?. O. eor:trdl
lJ Rafdei. lhrrrt Ca,onn ar!il



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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a (lrureepostNG) oo you rHINK THAT THERE rs

AN EQUALITY OF CITY SERVICES IN THE BLACK AND WHITE

COMMUNITIES IN DURHAM?

WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD AND STILL DO TODAY HAVE TO

KEEP THE PRESSURE ON TO GET WHAT WE CONSIDER AN EQUAL

LEVEL OF SERVICE IN OUR COMMUNITIES, SUCH AS STREETS,

MAINTENANCE, POLICE PROTECTION. IT IS JUST A CONSTANT

BATTLE TO I.4AKE SURE THAT THESE SERVICES ARE ON PAR.

DO YOU THINK THAT IT TS IMPORTANT FOR BLACK

PEOPLE TO HAVE BLACK REPRESENTATIVES?

, A FIRST OF ALL, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR BLACK PEOPLE

TO HAVE REPRESENTATION--WHAT I CALL TRUE REPRESENTATION,

BE THAT BLACK OR WHITE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

THE TENDENCY IS THAT IF AN ELECTED OFFICIAL

DOES NOT FEEL ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT SEGMENT OF THE POPULA-

TION, THEN THE LIKELIHOOD OF THE RESPONSIVENESS TO

PROBLEMS WILL BE DIMINISHED.AS COMPARED TO A PERSON wHO

IS TRULY REPRESENTED BY THAT COMMUNITY IN THE SENSE THAT

THAT COMMUNITY COULD DETERMINE I^{HETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON

SERVES OR NOT.

COMMON SENSE AND ACTUAL EXPERIENCE SAYS THAT

THAT RESPONS IVENESS WOULD BE DI FFEREI.IT. SO FROM THAT

POINT OF VI EW, THE BLACK COI"IMUNITY NEEDS TRUE REPRESEN-

TATION. I THINK THAI A BLACK PERSON IN I4OST CASES WOULD

F P. O, gd 2alts
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PI,IOENIX, ARIZONA

HAVE MORE FI RSTHAND KNOWLEDGE AND WOULD BE MORE

ACCESSIBLE IN THAT KIND OF SITUATION THAN THE TYPICAL

WH I TE PERSON, B ECAUSE THE WH I TE PERSON I S I..IOT GO I NG TO

LIVE GENERALLY WITHIN THE INNER AREA OF THAT DISTRICT.

HE MAY BE ON THE FRINGES OF THAT DISTRICT.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, I THINK THAT THE PERCEP_

TION FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY ITSELF THAT"III HAVE

A REPRESENTATION. I HAVE SOMEBODY THAT I CAN GO TOII IS

THERE IF THAT PERSON IS BLACK MORESO THAT IF THAT PERSON

IS IVHITE.

SO THESE ARE REALITIES THAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM

EXPERIENCE. AND I THINK THEY ARE TRUE. AND I THINK THAT

THEY CAN BE DEMONSTRATED.

HAVE YOU REEN INVOLVED IN ANY VOTER REGISTRA-

TION EFFORTS IN DURHAM COUNTY?

. A I HAVE BEEN.INVOLVED IN MANY VOTER REGISTRA-

TION EFFORTS FROM THE DAYS WHEN I WAS PRECINCT CHATR IN

PEARSON TOWN PRECINCT, NUMBER 34, FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS;

AS CO-CHAIR OF THE POLITICAL COMMITTEE. AND EVEN TODAY

WE ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO INCREASE REGISTRATION AND

MAKE REGISTRATION MORE ACCESSIBLE; BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY,

TO CONVINCE CITIZENS THAT REGISTRATION IS NOT THE MAJOR

PROBLEM THAT SOME OF THEM PERCEIVE. AND THIS COMES AS A

RESULT OF A LONG HISTORY OF PROBLEMS IN REGISTRATION AND

THE TREATMENT THAT CI_TIZENS RECEIVE WHEN THEY ATTEMPT TO

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REGI STER.

SO IT IS TWO SIDES TO THAT COIN: ACCESSI-

BILITY iN PROCESS AND PROCEDURES AND THE PERCEPTION ON

THE PART OF THE CITIZENS WHO ARE NOT REGISTERED THAT

THIS IS NOT THAT BAD. IT IS NOT GOING TO BE A PROBLEM.

YOU ARENIT GOING TO BE INTIMIDATED. SO I^IE FIGHT BOTH

BATTLES IN DURHAM. AND WE STILL DO.

WHAT IS THE COMPARATIVE LEVEL OF BLACK AND

WHITE REGISTRATION IN DURHAM COUNTY?

IN DURHAM COUNTY WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY--AND

EVERY SHEET I GET HAS A DIFFERENT NUMBER ON IT. WE HAVE

SoMEWHERE BETWEEN 65,000 AND 70,000 REGISTERED VOTERS IN

DURHAM COUNTY. WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY 20,000 BLACKS WHO

ARE REGISTERED. THAT IS ABOUT--SLIGHTLY LESS THAN OR

AROUND 50 PERCENT--45 TO 50 PERCENT OF THE VOTING AGE

POPULAT I ON.

A OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION?

A RIGHT

A Do YOU KNOW HOW THAT COMPARES WITH THE PERCEN

OF THE WHITE VOTING AGE POPULATION?

A I WOULD SAY THAT THE VOTING AGE POPULATION--

THE PERCENT OF WHITES WOULD BE SLIGHTLY HIGHER. I HAVE

SEEN NUMBERS LIKE THE TOTAL VOTING AGE POPULATION BEING

AROUND 112r000. SO I HAVENTT DONE THAT MATH. BUT YoU

CAN FIGURE THAT OUT.

A P. O.3d Ll6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TMNSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE METHOD OR THE I{AY ONE \

HAD To--srRIKE THAT. cAN you DESCRIBE WHEN you I^,ERE

INVOLVED IN VOTER REGISTRATION IN THE LATE SIXTIES AND

EARLY SEVENTIES WHAT WAS THE METHOD FOR REGISTERING?

A INITIALLY WHEN I FIRST BECAME INVOLVED, THE

REGISTRATION--THERE VJERE TWO OPPORTUNITIES TO REGISTER

PEOPLE: ONE AT THE BOARD oF ELECTIONS OFFICE AT ANY

TIME, WHICH IS TYPICALLY FROM 8:OO TO 5:OO OR WHATEVER.

AND THEN THERE WERE THREE SATURDAYS PRIOR TO AN ELECTION

WHERE REGISTRARS WOULD BE AT EACH OF THE POLLING PLACES

TO REGISTER PEOPLE.

THAT WAS BASICALLY-.THOSE WERE THE TWO WAYS

THAT YOU COULD REGISTER. AND THIS WAS DURING THE TIME

BETWEEN 1966 AND 7972, MOST OF THAT TIME WHEN I WAS

PRECINCT CHAIR.

. LATER THE.PROCESS WAS CHANGED SO THAT THERE

COULD BE SPECIAL REGISTRATION DRIVES UNDER CERTAIN CIR-

CUMSTANCES.

a BEFORE yOU GO ON, LET ME ASK yOU A QUESTION

ABOUT THE PRIOR PERIOD. DID THE SYSTEM OF ELECTIONS AND

REGISTRATION AT THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS POSE ANY PARTICU-

LAR PROBLEMS FOR BLACK PEOPLE?

A WELL, GENERALLY, ANYTIME YOU HAVE REGISTRATION

BEING CONDUCTED DURING OFFICE HOURS AND MOST PEOPLE ARE

WORKING AND DONIT GFT PAID AND DONIT HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY25

F P. O. &r 2t16S
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TO LEAVE I,JORK, DON I T HAVE TRANSPORTAT I oN, I T I S

TOTALLY--WELL, THE RECORD SHOWS THAT IT DOES NOT RESULT

IN PEOPLE REGISTERING, PARTICULARLY BLACK FOLK WHO HAVE

THOSE KINDS OF PROBLEMS, UNIQUELY MORESO THAN MOST WHITE

Folr.

.I N ADD I T I ON TO THAT, THE PERCE PT I ON OF THE I R

EMPLOYER DOES NOT AGREE AND APPROVE. SO THEY ARE GOING

TO BE RELUCTANT TO ASK FOR TIME OFF TO DO THAT. AND SO

AS A RESULT OF THAT, WE HAVE NOT FOUND THAT MANY PEOPLE

WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT ROUTE OF REGISTERING.

. NOW, FROM tg76--tJHEN I CAME BACK--TO 198r, WE

HAVE HAD THE FOLLOWING CHANGES IN THE REGISTRATION

PROCEDURES. FIRST OF ALL, REGISTRATION AT POLLING

PLACES WAS STOPPED. THERE WERE SPECIAL REGISTRATION

DRIVES PERMITTED IF REQUESTED AND APPROVED BY THE BOARD

OF ELECTIONS I,'ITH VERY SPECIFIC GUIDELINES AND INSTRUC-

T I ONS.

THERE WAS BASICALLY STILL THE REGISTRATION AT

THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS OFFICE. AND THEN LATER ON, THE

LIBRARIES WERE AUTHORTZED TO REGISTER PEOPLE SO THAT

THERE WERE REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS AT THE PUBLIC

LIBRARIES.

A DOES EACH PRECINCT HAVE REGISTRARS?

A YES. I AM SORRY. PRECTNCT REGISTRARS ALSO

DURING THAT PERIOD C.OULD REGISTER PEOPLE UPON APPOINTMEN

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.1571
PI{oENIX. ARIZONA

AT THEIR HOME, SO THAT THERE WERE REALLY THREE METHODS:

MAKE AN APPOINTMENT, GO TO THE REGISTRARTS HOUSE; Go To

A LIBRARY; OR GO TO THE ELECTION BOARD OFFICE.

A DID THE DURHAM COMMUNITY MAKE ANY EFFORTS TO

EXPAND THE PLACES IN WHICH THE PRECINCT REGISTRARS COULD,

REGISTER PEOPLE?

A WE HAVE HAD DIALOGUE AT VARIOUS POINTS WITH

THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS ABOUT EXPANDING THAT PROCESS,

MAKING REGISTRARS--PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO GO

OUT OF THEIR HOMES IN THEIR PRECINCTS AND REGiSTER

PEOPLE, AS WELL AS REGISTER PEOPLE ELSEWHERE WITHIN THE

CITY AND COUNTY OF DURHAM.

A DI D YOU MAKE THAT REQUEST TO THE BOARD OF

ELECTIONS?

A YES. WE HAVE DONE IT BOTH WAYS. WE HAVE

WRI TEN. AND WE HAVE ALSO HAD MEETINGS WITH THE CHAIR O

THE BOARD AND THE ELECTIOT.I BOARD SUPERVISOR.

A HOW WERE THOSE REQUESTS INITiALLY RECEIVED?

A WELL, INITIALLY THEY WERE RECEIVED NEGATIVELY.

IN FACT, UP UNTI L EARLY 1982 WE IdERE STI LL HAVING PROB:.

LEMS WITH THE SPECIAL REGISTRATION EFFORTS AND ALSO

GETTING REGISTRARS--REALLY IMPLEMENTING THE CONCEPT THAT

REGISTRARS COULD GO ACROSS PRECINCT BOUNDARIES AND

REGISTER PEOPLE ANYWHERE.

OFFICIALLY, THE BOARD ULTIMATELY CHANGED THEI

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PROCEDURE AND THEIR POLICY FOLLOWING THE STATE BOARD'S

EFFORTS AND I'NSTRUCTIONS, BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY AS WAS

TESTIFIED YESTERDAY AND WITH SOI'4E RELUCTANCE. AND TODAY,

THE REGISTRARS WHO WERE REGISTRARS AT THAT TIME ARE STIL

IN PLACE. AND THE MENTALITY OF THOSE REGISTRARS IS THAT

I'YES: I HEAR THE ELECTION BOARD SUPERVISORS. AND I HEAR

THE BOARD SAYING THAT WE CAN DO THIS.'I BUT THERE IS

STILL RELUCTANCE TO GO OUT AND REGISTER PEOPLE--TO TAKE

THE INITIATIVE.

THAT IS EXISTING TODAY. AND IT. IS BACKED UP

BY OUR EFFORTS TO CALL UPON THEM TO REGISTER PEOPLE AT

CERTAIN TIMES AND IN CERTAIN PLACES. SO I WOULD SAY

THAT I^,E HAVE A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF REGISTRARS WHO

WOULD BE READILY AVAILABLE TO GO OUT AND REGISTER PEOPLE

EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE OFFICIALLY AUTHORIZED TO REGISTER

PEOPLE

IT STEMS REALLY FROM HAVING A PRACTICE IN

PLACE SO LONG AND CHANGING'IT AND DIFFICULTY ACCEPTING

AND BELIEVING THAT THEY ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT IT.

NOW, VJHEN YOU RETL'RNED TO DURHAM, WHO WAS THE

CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?

A I BELIEVE MR. MARSH WAS. WILLIAM A. MARSH

WAS CHAIR AT THAT TIME. I BELIEVE HE WAS. I CANTT BE

CERTAIN ABOUT THE EXACT DATE.

JUDGE PHI.I-LI PS: MS. WINNER, DID I MI SS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCBIBING, INC. i AlN OFFTCE, RAt ETGH, 832.908s

779.3619 876.4571

PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

SOMETHING IN MR,. LEONARDIS

DURHAM AND COMING BACK?

THE WITNESS:

MS. WINNER:

DURHAM IN L972 AND RETURNED

TESTIMONY ABOUT HI S LEAVING

YES.

YES, SIR. HE LEFT

TO DURHAM IN 1976.

THE WITNESS: I BELIEVE THAT MR. MARSH-

DURING THAT TIMEFRAME MR. MARSH WAS CHAIR. I DONIT KNOW

IF HE WAS CHAIR AT THE EXACT POINT THAT I CAME BACK.

BUT WHEN I BECAME DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIR

L977, HE WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

DURHAM COUNTY.

BY MS. WINNER:

A WHAT BECAME OF HIS CHAIRMANSHIP?

A MR. MARSH SERVED AS CHAIR UNTIL 1979, I BE-

LIEVE. AND IMMEDIATELY UPON THE ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING

op THE BOARD OF ELECT_IONS IN 1979, THE OTHER DEMOCRATIC

MEMBER OF THE BOARD TEAMED UP WITH THE REPUBLICAN MEMBER

AND UNSEATED MR. MARSH AS.CHAIRMAN OF THE ELECTION BOARD.

THAT DEMOCRATIC MEMBER IS STILL ON THE BOARD

TODAY. AND THAT PERSON WAS ON THE BOARD AT THE TIME THAT

I CAME BACK TO DURHAM AND HAD BEEN SUPPORTED BY PERSONS

IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY INCLUDING THE MEMBERS OF THE COUI'JT

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. BUT IT WAS A SWITCH.

JUDGE DUPREE: YOU ARE LETTING YOUR

VOICE DROP. I AM TAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE HEARING YOU.

IN

IN

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PRECISION FEPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE WI TNESS : OKAY. I WILL REPEAT

THAT. IN 7979 AT THE IORGANIZATIONAL MEETING OF THE

COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS, THE OTHER DEMOCRATIC MEMBER OF

THAT BOARD TEAMED UP WITH THE REPUBLICAN MEMBER---

.JUDGE DUPREE: (TNrenPoSING) I HEARD

THAT. IT WAS JUST THE LAST--JUST GO AHEAD FROM THERE.

THE WITNESS: ---AND UNSEATED MR. MARSH

AS CHAIRMAN. MR. MARSH REMAINED ON THE BOARD FOR THE

REMAINDER OF THAT TERI"I UNTIL 1981. HE CHOSE NOT TO GO

BACK-_NOT TO SEEK THAT POSITION AGAIN.

Y MS. WINNER:

a Now, WHAT HAS BEEN THE RACIAL CoMPOSITION OF

THE BOARD SINCE 1981--SINCE MR. MARSH LEFT THE BOARD?

A THE BOARD HAS BEEN ALL WHITE SINCE THAT POINT.

AND THAT HAS BEEN A VERY VOLATILE ISSUE IN DURHAM FOR A

LONG TIME

A HAS THE DURHAM COMMITTEE MADE ANY EFFORTS TO

CHANGE THAT? ^

FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS SO VOLATILE UNTIL IT

BECAME AN ISSUE DURING THE PRECINCT MEETINGS IN MARCH OF

THIS YEAR. THE WHOLE PROCESS AND PROCEDURE STARTED IN

1979 WHEN I WAS COUNTY CHAIR. AND I RECOMMENDED MR. MARSH

AND MS. SHAW TO BE REAPPOINTED.

IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THAT IS WHEN SHE TOOK

THE ACTION THAT I JU_ST MENTIONED. FROM THAT POINT ON IT

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAS BEEN AN ISSUE IN DURHAM COUNTY. AND IT STILL

REMAINS AN ISSUE. THE MOST RECENT INDICATION OF THAT

WAS THE PRECINCT MEETINGS IN 1983, WHEN WE HAD ONE OF THE

BEST TURNOUTS WE HAVE 
=VER 

HAD AND REGAINED SOME OF THE

CONTROL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

a

PEOPLE ?

WHEN yOU SAy rrwEr r DO YOU MEAN rrWErr--BLACK

A BLACK PEOPLE, OTHER FOLK IN DURHAM--BECAUSE WE

TEND TO COALESCE WITH OTHER FOLK IN THE CITY AND THE

COUNTY OF DURHAM. IT IS NOT ALL BLACK. WE HAVE PEOPLE

THAT WE WORK WITH ON A CONTINUING BASIS.

SO TO THAT EXTENT, A RESOLUTION WAS PASSED BY

THE COUNTY CONVENTIION REQUESTING THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THE

COUNTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE CONVENE WITHIN TEN DAYS AND

RECONSIDER THE ISSUE OF THE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS

NOM I NAT I ONS .

THAT SAME CONVENTION ALSO IN THAT SAME RESOLU-

TION REQUESTED THAT SENATOR RUSSELL T'JALKER, AS CHAIRMAN

OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, DEFER ANY ACTION IN SUBMITTING

THOSE NAMES TO THE STATE BOARD AND ALSO ADVISING HIM THAT

WE WOULD BE SUBMI TTING ADDITI ONAL NAMES TO }1IM.

THAT WAS A RESOLUTION PASSED OVERWHELMINGLY

BY THE COUNTY CONVENTION. TEN DAYS FOLLOWING THAT OR

WITHIN THAT TEN-DAY PERIOD, THE NE\'I COUNTY CHAIR CALLED

A MEETING OF THE EXE-CUTIVE COMMITTEE AND PRESENTED NAMES

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TO THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. THEY APPROVED THOSE NAMES.

AND THOSE NAMES WERE SUBMITTED TO THE STATE CHAIR OF THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY. HE P.EFUSED TO ACCEPT THEM AND REFUSED

TO ACT ON THEM.

SO THERE IT IS A VOLATILE ISSUE. AND IT STILL

IS AS A RESULT OF THAT. THE POINT IS THAT THE COUNTY

CHAIR THAT FOLLOWED ME ATTEMPTED TO SUBMIT I\|AMES IN 1981.
A.ND SHE SUBMITTED AT LEAST SIX SLATES OF NAMES FOR

APPOINTMENT TO THE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND THE

COUNTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE TURNED DOWN EACH OF THOSE

NAMES.

a NOt^/, DID EACH OF HER SIX SLATES___

A (TNTTNPOSING) CRCN OF HER SIX SLATES. AND

THE ONLY COMMONALITY IN ALL OF THOSE SLATES IS THAT THERE

I.JAS ONE BLACK PERSON ON EACH SLATE--AND A DIFFERENT

PERSON. BUT THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE AT THAT POINT

BASED UPON THE VOTE COUNT AND THE PERSONS IN ATTET.{DANCE

AT THAT MEETING, REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY SLATE THAT CON-

TAINED A BLACK PERSoN--1981. so ToDAy, 1981, wE srILL
HAVE THAT SITUATION EXISTING.

A WHAT IS THE EXTENT OF ELECTION OF BLACK PEOPLE

IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A WE HAVE HAD SOME DEGREE OF SUCCESS IN CERTAIN

AREAS--IN CITY COUNCIL RACES. IT IS A CONSTANT STRUGGLE,

EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE 47 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION IN THE

Ft P. O. tor atarlJ n ngh, tio.$ cmLr. 2rlrt



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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CITY. WE HAVE TWO PERSONS--I AM SORRY--THREE BLACK

PERSONS ON THE CITY COUNCIL TODAY.

OUT OF HOW MANY?

A OUT OF T2. WITH THE MAYOR IT IS 13 VOTES.

WE HAVE NEVER HAD MORE THAN FOUR AT ANY ONE PCINT IN

TIME_-SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. THE ELECTION PROCESS IN

DURHAM IS GENERALLY--OUR PERCEPTION IS THAT IT IS PUT IN

PLACE TO REALLY PREVENT THE PROCEDURES AND THE RULES--

THAT IS, PREVENT PEOPLE FROM PARTICIPATING FROM MINoRITY-

LET ME--I AM SORRY.

a LET ME GO ON TO THE NEXT QUESTTON. HOW IS

THE CITY COUNCIL OF DURHAM ELECTED?

A OKAY. I WILL BE MORE SPECIFIC. THE CITY

COUNCIL HAS 13 POSITIONS, THE MAYOR AND 12 COUNCIL SEATS.

SIX OF THOSE SEATS ARE AT LARGE. SIX ARE PSEUDO WARD.

WHAT.I MEAN BY PSEUDO WARD IS THAT YOU ONLY LIVE IN THAT

WARD. BUT WHEN ELECTION COMES YOU ARE VOTED ON A:I' LARGE.

SO FROM OLIR POINT,OF VIEW, IT IS BASICALLY AN

A.I LARGE SYSTEM, AS ARE ALL OF THE OTHER ELECTIONS_.THE

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AT LARGE, THE CITY SCHOOL BOARD AT

LARGE WITHIN THAT WHOLE CITY DISTRICT, THE COUNTY SCHOOL

BOARD AT LARGE WITHIN THAT WHOLE COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT.

SO WE REALLY HAVE NO TRUE DISTRICT ELECTIONS

IN DURHAM. AND THAT IS WHAT I t,tEANT By fty cot4t'tENT

EARLIER.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TMNSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a WHAT ARE rHE---

A (tNrenposrNG) tru ADDITIoN, THE--I AM soRRy.

IN ADDITION, THE CITY COUNCIL ELECTIONS ARE STAGGERED

TERMS. SIX PERSONS PLUS THE MAYC,R ARE VOTED ONE TII4E

AND TWO YEARS LATER, SIX PLUS THE MAYOR. SO THE MAYOR

RUNS FOR TWO YEARS. SO YOU HAVE STAGGERED TERMS PLUS

AT LARGE VOTING IN THE CITY COUNCIL.

A HOW DOES AT LARGE VOTING IN DURHAM COUNTY

OPERATE AS A BARRIER TO THE ELECTION OF BLACK PEOPLE?

A AT LARGE VOTING--I GUESS I CAN DESCRIBE THAT

BY DESCRIBING THE SITUATION THAT EXISTS TODAY AND TRY TO

RELATE HOW THAT TIES BACK TO AT LARGE VOTTNG. BUT FIRST

OF ALL, THERE IS A HIGH DEGREE OF--THERE IS A RACIAL

ISSUE INTERJECTED IN MOST ELECTIONS IN DURHAM COUNTY.

WHERE THERE IS COMPETITION AND WHERE WE HAVE

OPPONENTS, THE MEDIA.DOES A JOB IN THAT REGARD THAT

REALLY ADDS TO THAT SITUATION. THE RECORD WILL SHOW THAT

ONLY A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE.OF WHITES TEND TO VOTE FOR

B LACK CAND I DATES . AND THAT VAR.I ES DEPENN' I NG UPON WHETHE

THERE IS OPPOSITIOI..I OF NOT AND HOW WELL CONTESTED IT IS.

BUT EVEN WHEN THERE IS NO OPPOSITION, YOU HAVE A CERTAIN

PERCENTAGE OF WHiTES WHO DONIT VOTE FOR BLACK CANDIDATES,

EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO ONE ELSE TO VOTE FOR.

a wHEl.l You sAID THE MEDIA CONTRIBUTES, I^JHAT DID

YOU MEAI..I BY THAT? -

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THEY TEND TO BUILD UP THE RACIAL ASPECTS.

IN FACT, IN EVEFIY ARTICLE WHERE THERE IS A BLACK CANDI-

DATE RUNNING, THE POI NT I S ALWAYS MADE THAT 'IMR . ' LOVETT,

WHO IS BLACK,I' REALLY BUILDING UP THE RACIAL IDENTITY

OF THE CANDIDATE AND REALLY ADDING TO THE RACIAL TH|IUST

THAT IS ALREADY THERE. AND DURHAM HAS HAD A LOT'IG HISTORY

OF THAT--THE DURHAM MEDIA.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER BARRIERS THAT YOU PERCEIVE

IN AN AT LARGE SYSTEM?

A WELL, FTRST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO RUN CITYWIDE.

AND THAT REqUIRES MORE EFFORT ON THE CANDIDATE WHO IS

RUNNING, MORE MONEY, COVER A BROADER AREA. WE HAVE SOME

100,000 pEopLE IN THE CITY OF DURHAM--IN EXCESS OF

100,000--108,000. AND IT covERS QUITE AN AREA.

SO FROM THE STANDPOINT OF BEING ABLE TO COVER

THE.AR.EA, IT IS EXPENS.IVE AND TIME CONSU}4ING. IN ADDI_

TIOI{ TO THAT, BECAUSE OF WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE TENDENCY

FOR WHITES IN LARGE NUMBERST-AI\ID I ALWAYS SAY THAT THERE

ARE EXCEPTIONS. AND T.IHAT I AM REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS
a

ABOUT 20 PERCENT IN THE BEST SITUATION U'OULD VOTE FOR A

BLACK CANDIDATE BASED UPON THE NUMBERS I HAVE SEEN.

BECAUSE OF THAT FACTOR, THE PERCEPTION IS THAT

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN WIN AN ELECTION IS TO BE ABLE TO

APPEAL TO A LARGE SEGMENT OF WHITE VOTERS IN ORDER TO

I^JIN. SO THEREFORE, YOU LIMIT THE NUMBER AND TYPES OF

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

- 
2, O. !.r ttcl

LI i.rlc[r, llorrh c.roth ,Gll

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CANDIDATES THAT YOU CAN GET TO RUN.

.JUST TO C ITE THE STATE HOUSE AS AN EXAMPLE, TO

MY KNOWLEDGE WE HAVE O}.ILY HAD THREE PERSONS TO RUN FOR

THAT posITTON--THREE, MAYBE FOUR--THREE THAT I KNOW ABOUT

AND ALL OF THOSE HAVE HAD SIMILAR BACKGROUNDS.

A WHAT I S THE BACKGROUND?

A WELL, YOU NEED TO BE IN BUSINESS OR YOU NEED

TO BE A LAWYER. YOU NEED TO HAVE--THE DISTINCTION

BETWEEN BLACK CANDIDATES AND WHITE CANDIDATES IN THAT

REGARD--IN ADDITION TO THOSE TWO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME-

THING ELSE GOING FOR YOU LIKE A NAME, WELL-KNOWN, YOU

KNOW; CONTRASTED TO WHITE CANDIDATES WHO ARE LAWYERS AND

WHO HAVE THE MONEY AND THE TIME TO GET OFF, THEY DONIT

ALWAYS REQUIRE'THAT NAME RECOGNITION AND THE, YOU KNOW,

SUPER KIND OF PERSON.

, AND I THINK THE RECORD WILL SPEAK FOR THAT AS

WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY SERVING IN

THE LEGISLATURE.

A IS THERE A METHOD OF ELECTION THAT YOU THINK

WI LL SOLVE THAT PROBLEM?

A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, I THINK, WOULD

MINIMIZE THE PROBLEM IN THE SENSE THAT YOU HAVE A SMALLER

AREA TO DEAL WITH. YOU WOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY--THE

PERCEPTION OF HAVING TO GET SO MANY WHITE VOTES WOULD BE

MINIMIZED TO THE EXIENT THAT YOU WOULD PROBABLY HAVE MORE



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CANDIDATES RUNNING.

THE PERCEPT

AND REALLY

WHITE FOLK

STATE HOUSE

FORESEEABLE

a

WOULD NOT

A

a

FOR EXAtlpLE, I WoULD NOT RUN BECAUSE I HAVE__

ION IN MY MIND IS BECAUSE I AM SO OUTSPOKEN

INVOLVED THAT I COULDNIT GET LARGE NUMBERS OF

TO VOTE FOR ME. SO I WOULD NOT RUN FOR THE

TODAY OR TOMORROW OR ANY OTHER TIME IN THE

FUTURE, AS AN EXAMPLE.

WHEN yOU SAy yOU WOULDN ' T RUN, DO yOU MEAN yOU

RUN IN AN AT-LARGE.-.

CTNTTRpoSING) Tnal IS ExACTLY RIGHT.

HAS THE DURHAM COMMITTEE TAKEN ANY OFFICIAL

POSITION ON THIS?

A THE DURHAT,I COMMITTEE HAS TAKEN AN OFFICIAL

POSITION. AND IN EARLY 1982, IN TERMS OF NOT ONLY LOOKI

AT DURHAM BUT THE WHOLE STATE REDISTRICTING PLANI FOR BOTH

THE. U. S., THE STATE SENATE AND STATE HOUSE, WE HAVE BEEN

INVOLVED IN TRYING TO ANALYZE AND UNDERSTAND THE RAMIFI-

CATIONS OF SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS.

WE HAVE DONE SOME HOMEWORK. WE HAVE WORKED

WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS. YES; WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED.

YES; WE HAVE TAKENI A POSITION.

AND WHAT IS THE POSITION THAT YOU TOOK?

THAT WE FAVOR SINGLE-ME}4BER DISTRICTS.

JUDGE PHI LLI PS: TAKE A RECESS UNTIL 1O:50

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.1571

PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

(TnT PROCEEDING

TO RECONVENE AT

WAS RECESSED

10:50 A.M.,

AT 10:35 A.M.,

THIS SAME DAY. )

- 
P. O. !d 2116

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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:50 A.

(wnr Re u Rot t,

WI LLIE LOVETT

THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS TOIIOWS:)

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:50 A.M
(RESUMED)

BY MS. WINNER:

q MR. LOVETT, IT HAS BEEN STIPULATED THAT SOME

BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ELECTED TO SOME OFFICES IN DURHAM

COUNTY. WHAT IS YOUR EXPLANATION FOR THAT?

A WELL, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE

BASICALLY AT-LARGE VOTING, IT HAS BEEN A DIFFICULTY,

FIRST OF ALL, IN FINDING A CANDIDATE THAT HAS THAT APPEAL

THAT I TALKED ABOUT EARLIER.

JUDGE PHI LLI PS : MR. WI TNESS, THE QUESTION

AS I UNDERSTAND IT IS HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN---

THE WI TNESS : (INTERPOSING) TNRT I S

WHAT I AM DOING--THE CANDIDATE, FIRST OF ALL, THAT HAS

THE APPEAL; SECONDLY, THE BURDEN OF HAVING TO GET A

GREATER OR HIGHER PERCENTAGE OR EQUAL TO A HIGHER PERCEN-

TAGE TURNOUT IN AN ELECTION AND WORKING VERY HARD TO

OVERCOME THE DISPARITY IN THE REGISTRATION FIGURES, SO

THAT THE RESULT OF T}1AT HAS BEEN SELECTION OF CANDIDATE

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2.tta
lJ i.l.lelr raodr c.rdlil znlr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND AN EXTRAORDINARY, DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF EFFORT

TO GET CANDIDATES ELECTED, IN ADDITION TO SOME COALITION

WITH OTHER GROUPS.

MS. IdI NNER: I HAVE

QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME.

CROSS EXAMINAT

NO FURTHER

ION 10:52 A.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. LOVETT, I AM NOT SURE I HEARD TOTALLY

YOUR LAST ANS\^'ER. BUT DID I HEAR YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT

COALITION SOMETHING?

A I SAID TI,JO THINGS. I SAID THREE THINGS: A

CANDIDATE WHO HAS THAT ATTRACTION TO GET A CERTAIN PER-

CENTAGE OF THE WHITE VOTE; AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF

EFFORT TO HAVE A HIGHER TURNOUT IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE

REGI.STERED VOTERS. AND..SECONDLY, ATTRACTION OF WHITE

VOTES MEANS THOSE FOLK WHO TEND TO VOTE FOR BLACK CANDI-

DATES--THAT SMALL PERCENTAGE. AI.,ID THAT IS I^JHAT I MEAN

BY THE WORD IICOAL I TI ON.II

IN AN ELECTION BETWEEN TWO BLACK CAI.IDIDATES

IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, DO BLACKS TEND TO VOTE

FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE WHO IS MOST ATTRACTIVE?

IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT, BLACK CANDIDATES

WOULD TEND TO VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE THAT \^IOULD BE THE

BEST REPRESENTATIVE IOR THEI.,I, AS OPPOSED TO THE ONE THAT

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WOULD BE MOST ATTRACTIVE TO THE GENERAL POPULATION.

A DOES A BLACK CANDIDATE IN A SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICT HAVE TO WORK HARD TO GET ELECTED?

A HARD, HARD_-RELATIVELY, YOU HAVE TO WORK'HARD

IN ANY ELECTION TO GET ELECTED. MY COMMENT REFERRED TO

DI SPROPORT IONATELY AI"IOUNT OF EFFORT I N TERMS OF TURNOUT

AND THE I^/ORK THAT HAS TO GO INTO IT.

A YOU MEAN THE BLACK CANDIDATE HAS GOT.TO GO

INTO THE WHITE COMMUNITY AND CAMPAIGN? IS THAT AN

EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU MEAN BY IIDISPROPORTIONATELYII?

I AGREE IF YOU SAY IN PROPORTION TO OTHER

CANDIDATES WHO ARE RUNNING.

A BLACK CANDIDATE HAS TO WORK HARDER IN

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT THAN DOES A WHITE CANDIDATE?

MY STATEMENT RELATED TO SINGLE-MEMBER DIS-

TRICTS, MULTI-MEMBER D.ISTRICTS AND HOW HARD A CANDIDATE

HAS TO WORK. MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT SAYS THAT A BLACK

CANDIDATE_.IN ORDER TO GET BLACKS ELECTED IN A MULTI-

MEMBER DISTRICT, THERE IS A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF

EFFORT IN TERMS OF TURNOUT OF VOTERS REQUIRED TO GET A

BLACK PERSON ELECTED.

q VIHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME AT'JARE OF THE FACT

THAT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTING VERSUS MULTI-T,'IEMBER DIS-

TR I CT I NG I,,JAS AN I SSUE BE FORE THE NORTH CAROL I NA LEG I S LA-

TURE? _

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AWARE OF THE DIFFERENCES

SINCE I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN POLITICS BETWEEN SINGLE_

MEMBER DISTRICTS AND MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS. BUT AT

CERTAIN TIMES THE ISSUE IS MANDATED BY LAW TO BE DEALT

WITH BY THE LEGISLATURE.

SO OUR INVOLVEMENT IN

ARE REFERRING TO RELATED TO THE

THAT ACTION HAD TO BE TAKEN ON,

WE ARE NOT AWARE AND WE ARE NOT

INVOLVED PRIOR TO THAT TIME.

THE TIMEFRAME THAT YOU

FACT THAT IT WAS AN ISSUE

WHICH DOES NOT MEAN THAT

CONCERNED AND WE ARENIT

WHEN DID YOU FIRST BRING TO THE ATTENTION OF

THE DURHAM COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMMITTEE THE

ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A I DONI T RECALL HAVING BROUGHT THE ISSUE MYSELF

TO THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. I AM SURE THAT THE

ISSUE WAS DISCUSSED. BUT I DONTT RECALL BRINGING IT

MYSELF.

a you NEVER SOUGHT TO HAVE Tl-lE DURHAM COUNTY

DEMOCRATIC PARTY, EITHER AT A CONVENTION OR THROUGH ITS

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, TAKE A STAND ON SINGLE VERSUS

MULTI -MEMBER DI STRICTS?

A THAT MAY HAVE BEEN THE CASE. I DONIT RECALL

PERSONALLY DOING IT. MY ORGANIZATION MAY HAVE DONE IT.

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A RESOLUTION PASSED ON IT. I KNOW

THAT THE DURHAM COMUITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAS DEALT WITH THE ISSUE.OF SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS

MULTI _MEMBER DI STR ICTS.

A I AM SORRY. I DIDNIT HEAR THE END OF THAT

ANSWER.

A THE ORGANIZATION THAT I CURRENTLY HEAD--I KNO

THAT THAT ORGANTZAT ION HAS BEEN DEEPLY INVOLVED IN THE

ISSUE OF SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS.

A AND THAT I S THE GROUP KNOWN AS THE DURHAM

COMMITTEE?

A YES.

A WHO WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DURHAM DEMOCRATIC

PARTY IN 1982?

A IN 1982 BOB SUGGS I,JAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

a DID YOU HOLD ANY OFFICE IN THE DURI-IAM DEMO-

CRATIC PARTY IN 1982?.

A NO; I DID NOT.

A WERE YOU A MEMBER OF THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?

A NO; I WAS NoT.

A WHEN DID THE DURHAM COMMITTEE FIRST TAKE A

STAND ON THE QUESTION OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

A SOMETIME IN THE SPRING OF I82. I DONIT KNOW

THE EXACT DATE.

A HAD YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATIONS WITH LESLIE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRTBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

. PHOENIX, ARIZONA

wINNER, COUNSEL FOR THE Gil!g!_E! PLAINTTFFS, pRIOR TO TH

TIME THAT THE DURHAM COMMITTEE TOOK A POSITION ON THAT

ISSUE WiTH RESPECT TO;INGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

MS. WINl..IER: OBJECT I ON.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE DO

THINGS, BEFORE WE TAKE A POSITION WE DO A LOT OF RESEARCH

AND DISCUSSION. AND I AM SURE THAT WE HAD A LOT OF

DISCUSSION WITI.I-MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED AS WELL AS LEGISLA--

TORS ON THE SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT.

ONCE WE NO" THAT DISCUSSION AND DRAW SOME

CONCLUSIONS, THEN WE TAKE A FORMAL POSITION BY THE BODY.

SO YES--WE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH MANY PEOPLE.

BY I.1R. LEONARD:

A DO YOU RECALL HAVING A CONVERSATION T'JITH LESLI

WINNER PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT THE DURHAM COMMITTEE TOOK

A POSITION ON SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

WITH RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE?

A I CANIT SAY FOR CERTAIN. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT

BASED UPON MY EARLIER STATEMENT THAT I MAY HAVE. AND

THAT WOULD BE THE NORMAL COURSE OF ACTIVITY..

a DID YOU COMMUNICATE. THE VIEWS OF THE DURHAM

COMMITTEE TO THE LEGISLATIVE DELEGATION FROM DURHAM

C OUNTY ?

F P. O. lor 2|t6lt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PFIOENIX, ARIZONA

I PARTICIPATED IN PUBLIC HEARINGS THAT WERE

HELD--HEARINGS THAT WERE HELD BY THE LEGISLATURE_-ON AT

LEAST ONE OCCASION, MAYBE MORE THAN ONE OCCASION. AND

DURING THE COURSE OF THOSE HEARINGS, WE HAVE HAD DIS-

CUSSIONS WITH MOST OF THE MEMBERS OF THE DURHAM COUNTY

DELEGATION. AND WE PROBABLY HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH SOME

PRIOR TO THAT HEARING.

DID YOU HAVE ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH REPRESENTA-

TIVE SPAULDING?

A I ,AM SURE I HAVE DURING THE COURSE OF ACTION.

I.KNOW I HAVE HAD MORE THAN ONE DISCUSSION VJITH HIM

DURING THAT COURSE OR PERIOD OF TIME.

A DO YOU KNOW WHAT REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDINGIS

POSITION WAS WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

. A I THINK GENERALLY HE WOULD.-AND I AM RECALLIN

a woulD

DURHAM COUNTY?

HE WOULD TEND TO FAVOR SINGLE-MEMBER

CASES OR.IN MOST CASES. I DONIT THINK

THAT HE WOULD FAVOR THEI'I IN EVERY CASE.

HE FAVOR SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR

MS. WINNER: I OB.JECT. IF THE DEFENSE

WOULD LIKE TO CALL REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING, HE IS ON

BOTH OF OUR WITNESS LISTS. I DON'T THINK THAT MR. LOVETT

CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT -MR. SPAULDING OR REPRESENTATIVE

I THINK GENERALLY

DISTRICTS IN SOME

THAT HE WOULD SAY

F ?. O.0or a'aras
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SPAULDING THINKS.

MR. LEONARD: I DIDNIT ASK WHAT HE

THINKS. I ASKED THE WITNESS WHETHER OR NOT HE FAVORS

SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR DURHAM COUNTY.

MS. WINNER: WELL, THAT IS HEARSAY, AS

I KNOW IT. SO I WILL OB,JECT TO THE HEARSAY.

REASONS WHY THE COURT OUGHT TO RECEIVE THAT EVIDENCE.

FIRST OF ALL, IT IS INDICATIVE OF WHAT A BLACK MEMBER

OF THE LEGISLATUREIS VIEWS ARE WITH RESPECT TO THE

QUESTION OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS.

SECONDLY, THE GINGLES.PLAINTIFFS HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED BY

THIS COURT REPRESENTING A CLASS. THAT CLASS IS ALL THE

BLACK VOTERS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MR. LEONARD:

FOR JUST A MOMENT?

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MR. LEONARD:

AND AMONG

EV I DENCE

THAT ALL

STATE IS,

WITNESS LI

WE WILL SUSTAIN THAT.

WILL THE COURT HEAR ME

YES.

I THINK THERE ARE TWO

SO THE FACT THAT THERE IS DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN

BLACKS WITH RESPECT TO THIS ISSUE IS P.ELEVANT

WITH RESPECT TO VJHETHER OR NOT PLAINTI FFS I CLAIM

BLACKS I'IAI.IT TO OVERTURN THE REDISTRICTING OF THE

IN FACT, TRUE.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS :

ST?

IS MR. SPAULDING ON YOUR

F P. O. Bc 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BETTER TO LET THAT TESTIMONY COME FROM MR. SPAULDING.

AND I l,TI LL SAY TO YOU NOW THAT I F FOR ANY REASON YOU

DONIT CALL MR. SPAULDING, WE WILL SEE TO THE RECALLING

OF MR. LITTLE AND LET YOU ASK THIS QUESTION.

MP.. LEONARD:

JUDGE PHI LLI PS :

MR. LEONARD:

MAY I APPROACH THE---

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

FECTLY APPROPRIATE IF YOU WANT

DISAGREEMENT WITHIN THE BLACK

YES; HE I S.

I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

I THINK IT WOULD BE PER.

TO ASK HIM IF HE KNOWS OF

COMMUN I TY OI',I TH I S PO I NT .

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

PEOP LE

DI SAGREE

PROCEDURE

THEM.

MR. LEONARD:

BY MR. LEONARD:

a MR. LOVETT, DO YOU KNOW OF ANY BLACK pEOpLE

WHO DISAGREE WITH YOUR POSITION WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE

MEMBER VERSUS MULT I -MEMBE R D I STR I CTS FOR THE I..IORTH

CAROLINA LEGISLATURE?

A AS ON ANY ISSUE,-THERE WILL BE BLACK

WHO DISAGREE WITH CERTAIN ISSUES. AND THEY MAY

WITH THIS ISSUE. I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHO---

a (trurrRPosrNG) rxcusE ME. UNDER THE

MR. LovETT, r isr rHE QUESTIoNS. AND You ANSWER

I UNDERSTAND. GO AHEAD.

I S THE ANSWER T0 MY QUESTION trYESrr"

I ANST'/ERED THE QUESTION ALREADY.A

F P. O. tor 2.l!s
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36't9 87 6.157 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND YOU CANIT BE MORE SPECIFIC OR DEFINITE?

A THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE THAT I KNOI^J OF WHO

DISAGREE WITH SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. I THOUGHT I

ANSWERED IT.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WIT-

NESS AND THE EASEL, I F THE COURT PLEASE?

BY MR. LEONARD:

A THIS IS APPARENTLY ONE OF MANY ALTERNATIVES

SUGGESTED TO SINGLE MEMBER DURHAM COUNTY WITH RESPECT TO

ITS HOUSE DELEGATION. AND IT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS

GINGLES EXHTBIT 6(A). I ASK YOU TO OBSERVE, MR. LoVETT,

FOR THE RECORD THAT TItE INDICATION OF WHAT THE TWO BLUE

COLORS ARE HERE INDICATES THAT THE DARKER BLUE IS 65

PERCENT AND OVER BLACK; AND ASK YOU TO NOTE THAT PRECINCT

34, WHICH IS 65 PERCENT AND OVER BLACK, HAS BEEN LEFT OUT

OF THE PROPOSED DISTRiCT OR THIS SUGGESTED DISTRICT;

wHILE PRECINCTS 8 AND 9, WHICH WOULD BE ACCORDING TO THE

LEGEND 50 PERCENT OR OVER W.IITE, HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN

THAT PROPOSED DISTRICT.

DO YOU KNOW WHERE REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING

LIVES?

A HE LIVES DOI^/N IN PRECINCT 39, I BELIEVE.

A AND ARE THERE REPRESENTATIVES WHO LIVE-..

A (INTERPOSING) TNOSE ARE SENATORS.

a SENATORS?_o

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES.

A AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING IS INDICATED DOWN

HERE. DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONE OF THOSE NUMBERS THAT IS?

A I WOULD THINK THAT THE UPPERMOST--YEAH.

A THE THIRD, INDICATING NUMBER 3?

A YEAH. I CAN'T SEE 3. BUT IT IS THE ONE YOU

POINTED TO.

A NOW, REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING DOESNIT LIVE IN

THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS SUCH IN DURHAM?

A NO. WELL, I WOULDNIT SAY THAT. I THINK IF

YOU TAKE A WHOLE PRECINCT, HIS NEIGHBORHOOD--HIS IMMEDIA

NEIGHBORHOOD--IS MORE THAN 5O PERCENT BLACK.

A SO THAT ALTHOUGH THE PRECINCT IS INDICATED AS

BEING MAJORITY WHITE, THE BLOCKS OR NEIGHBORHOOD HE LIVES

IN ARE BLACK?

A YEAH.

A I DIDNI T FULLY UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY tr.IITH

RESPECT TO THE DIFFICULTY OF BLACKS REGISTERING IN DURHAM

COUNTY. COULD YOU TELL US ONCE I'IORE WHAT DIFFICULTY YOU

FIND WITH RESPECT TO THE ACCESS TO REGISTRARS?

A YES. I WILL STATE IT AGAIN. FIRST OF ALL,

THE COUNTY LIBRARIES AND THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS OFFICE

ARE OPEN AND AVAILABLE DURING THE HOURS THAT THOSE

FACILITIES ARE OPEN. THE REGISTRARS ARE PERMITTED BY

POLICY TO REGISTER PEOPLE--REGISTRARS AND COMMISSIONERS--

E P, O. lor 2t1(E
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ANYWHERE WITHIN THE COUNTY. BUT AS A MATTER OF PRACTIC

THOSE REGISTRARS DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING IT. AND

OUR EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT THEY ARE NOT READILY AVAIL-

ABLE TO GO OUT AND REGISTER PEOPLE, EXCEPT FOR A FEW.

AND THE EXHIBIT, MR. LOVETT, WHICH HAS BEEN

ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE WITH RESPECT TO THE NUMBER OF

SPECIAL REGISTRARS--DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?

A YES. I UNDERSTAND.

---IN DURHAM COUNTY INDICATES THAT THERE ARE

KNOI.J ANY OF THOSE SPECIAL REGI STRARS WHO ARE

a

27. DO YOU

BLACK?

A I ONLY KNOW PROBABLY HALF A DOZEN AT THE MOST.

A HAVE YOU EVER ASKED THE COUNTY BOARD OF

ELECTIONS TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A LIST OF THE SPECIAL

REG I STRARS ?

YES. I HAVE THAT LIST.

YOU HAVE IT?

A I DONIT HAVE IT ]^IITH ME. BUT I HAVE IT. AND

SOME OF THOSE PERSONS WHO I^IERE OR IGINALLY APPOINTED ARE

NO LONGER ACTIVE. THEY HAVE DECEASED, MOVED, WHAT HAVE

YOU. AND NO ONE HAS BEEN REAPPOINTED. THE PROCESS, AS

YOU WELL KNOt'r, IS GOING ON NOW TO REAPPOINT PEOPLE T0

THOSE POSITIONS.

BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS. ONE IS

WHAT IS THE TOTAL LIST THAT IS AUTHORIZED. AND WHAT IS

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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE EFFECTIVE LIST OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT REGISTERING

PEOPLE. AND THAT IS WHAT I AM DESCRIBING TO YOU.

A HAVE YOU ASKED THE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS

TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF---

A (TNTTNPOSTruE) WE HAVE ON MORE THAN ONE

OCCASION. AND WE HAVE SUBMITTED LISTS IN I82. WE WERE

TOLD THAT IN 198] ON AUGUST 2ND WE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE

ADDITIONAL PEOPLE APPOINTED.

A DO YOU KNOW HERBERT DARK, THE PRECINCT

CHAIRI'4AN FOR PRECINCT NUMBER 7?

A YES.

A IS HE BLACK OR VJHITE?

A HE IS BLACK.

A IS PRECINCT 7 A MAJORITY WHITE PRECINCT OR A

MA.J OR I TY BLACK PREC I NCT ?

. A I WOULD SAY.,IT IS A MIXED PRECINCT. I CANTT

SAY WHAT THE PERCENT BLACK POPULATION IS IN THAT PRECINCT

BUT I KNOW IT IS A MIXED PRECINCT.

A IS PRECINCT NUMBER 9 MAJORITY BLACK OR WHITE?

A IT IS MAJORITY WHITE.

A IS CLARANELL BROWN THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT

PREC I NCT ?

A NO. CLARANELL BROWN IS NOT THE CHAIRMAN OF

THAT PRECINCT.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I DONIT KNOW. YOU HAVE AN OUTDATED L I ST

THERE

a

PREC I NCT ?

WAS CLARANELL BROWN THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT

SHE WAS AT ONE TIME. YES.

IN WHAT PERIOD OF TIME?

A PROBABLY t77 TO t79 TIMEFRAME, I WOULD GUESS.

A WOULD YOU SAY IT IS FAIR TO STATE, MR. LOVETT,

THAT THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF BLACK PRECINCT CHAIRMEN,

CHAIRWOMEN OR CHAIRS IN MAJORITY WHITE PRECINCTS iN

DURHAM COUNTY ?

A YES.-BUT NOT AS A RESULT OF WHITE VOTES

PUTTING THEM THERE. IT IS A MATTER OF HOW MANY BLACK

PERSONS ATTEND THE MEETING. AND IT DOESNIT MATTER WHAT

THE POPULATION IS. THE ONLY WAY, FOR THE MOST PART--

THER.E ARE A FEW EXCEPT.IONS WHERE WHITES TEND TO VOTE

FOR BLACK PERSONS FOR PARTY CHAIR.

AND IN SOME PLACES THERE IS A WORKING RELA.

TIONSHIP--iN A FEW CASES, VERY FEW. BUT FOR THE MOST

PART, IT DEPENDS UPON WHO ATTENDS THAT MEETING AND WHO

VOTES. AND IN THAT CASE, IT WAS A MATTER OF NUMBERS.

AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE CASE FOR MOST OF THEM.

I CAN POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCES WHERE THERE

HAVE BEEN--THEY HAVE GOTTEN THERE OTHER WAYS OTHER THAN

WHAT I .JUST MENTIONED.

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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, MLEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
pxoellrx, ARtzoNA

A DO YOU FAVOR SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR ALL

OF THE ELECTED OFFICES IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT STATEb'IDE AS WELL AS

LOCAL ?

A I AM TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTY BOARD OF

COMMISSIONERS AS AN EXAMPLE?

A I SUPPORT SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICTS IN GENERAL

FOR MOST ELECTED POSITIONS. I WOULD SAY THAT THE CITY

COUNCIL I WOULD START WITH. I WOULD START WITH IT FROM,

YOU KNOW, .JUST ABOUT ANy POSITION. I CAN| T THINK OF AN

EX.CEPTION AT THE MOMENT. LET ME PUT IT THAT WAY.

a INCLUDING THE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS?

A RIGHT. I CANI T THINK OF AI.,I EXCEPTION.

A DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS THE POTENTIAL TO

ELECT MORE THAN ONE BLACK MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRE-

SENTATIVES FROM DURHAM COUNTY WITH A MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICT?

A THERE IS THAT POTENTIALITY OF ELECTING MORE

THAN ONE PERSON TO THE HOUSE. BUT I DONIT THINK THERE IS

THE POTENTIALITY OF ELECTING MORE THAN ONE THAT WILL BE

REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY.

A AND BY THAT YOU MEAN THAT THAT BLACK PERSON,

IF HE OR SHE WERE ELECTED, WOULD NOT HAVE THE MAJORITY OF

SUPPORT OF THE BLACKS IN DURHAI4 COUNTY?

A I DIDNIT INTEND IT THAT WAY--IN TERMS OF HOW

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT PERSON WOULD PERFORM IN TERMS OF ISSUES THAT

SIGNIFICANT AND IMPORTANT TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

A WELL, IF A PERSON RECEIVES A MAJORITY

VOTES OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY--BLACK OR VJHITE_-IS

INDICATIVE THAT THAT INDIVIDUAL IS THE CHOICE OF

ARE

OF THE

THAT NOT

THE

BLACK COMMUNITY?

A ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN.

aIFANINDIVIDUALRECEIVESAMA.JoRITYoFTHE

VOTES CAST IN AN ELECTION FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY_'THAT

IS, A MA.JORITY OF THE BLACK VOTES CAST--IS THAT NOT

INDICATIVE THAT THAT INDIVIDUAL IS THE CHOICE OF THE

BLACK COMMUNITY?

ABASEDUPoT'Il,.lHoFILEDFoRTHATELECTIoN.BUT

WITHIN A DIFFERENT SITUATION, THERE MAY BE A DIFFERENT

PERSON RUNNING THAT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT CHOICE'

.aITDEPENDS,.MR.LoVETT,oNWHoTHECANDIDATES

ARE; IS THAT CORRECT?

AYoUASKEDAGENERALQUESTIoN.ANDIAMTRYING

TO ANSWER A SPECIFIC QUESTION. SO WILL YOU STATE YOUR

QUESTION AGAIN?

aDoESTHEDETERMINATIoNoFHowTHEBLACK

COMMUNITY IS GOING TO VOTE AND WHAT SUPPORT IT GIVES TO

THE CANDIDATES DEPEND UPON WHO THE TOTAL CANDIDATES ARE-

WHO THE CANDIDATES ARE THAT ARE AVAILABLE FOR THE BLACK

CoMMUNITY TO VOTE FqR?25

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIEING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A MY ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS THAT THE

CANDIDATES THAT WILL LIKELY RUN WILL BE DIFFERENT IN A

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT AS OPPOSED TO A MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICT. I SAID BEFORE THAT TO WIN IN A I.,IULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICT I T REQUI RES A S IGNI FI CANT NUMBER OF VIHI TE VOTES.

ARE yOU ABLE TO ANSWER THI S QUEST I ON rrYESl' OR

IINOII: WHETHER OR NOT IT IS INDICATIVE THAT A CANDIDATE

WHO RECEIVES A MA.JORITY OF THE BLACK VOTES CAST ITI AN

ELECTION IS THE CHOICE OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A FOR THAT PARTICULAR RACE FOR THAT PARTICULAR

ELECTION, GIVEN ONLY THOSE CHOICES.

THE ANSVIER IS IIYESII2

YES.

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REASON WHY A BLACK PERSON

WHO WANTS TO REGISTER TO VOTE IN DURHAM COUNTY CANNOT?

. A A PE RSON .CAN REG I STER, G I VEN ALL OF THE--G I VEN

THE SITUATION I HAVE DESCRIBED EARLIER ABOUT ACCESSI-

BILITY OF REGISTRARS AND PERSONS AUTHORIZED TO REGISTER

PEOPLE.

ARE THERE ORGANIZAT IONS WITHIN THE COUNTY THAT

WILL EITHER BRING A REGISTRAR TO THE PROSPECTIVE VOTER

OR REGISTRANT OR WILL AID THAT REGISTRANT IN GETTING TO

PLACE V\IHERE HE OR SHE CAN REGISTER TO VOTE?

ON A LIMITED BASIS THERE ARE.

DO YOU MEAN LIMITED IN TIME?ao

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a57't

PI-IOENIX, ARIZONA

A LIMITED IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PERSONS

AFFECTED AND LIMITED BECAUSE THERE ARE ONLY A FEW

REGISTRARS WHO ARE TRULY AVAILABLE TO GO OUT.

a DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REASON l,,HY A PERSON I'JHO

I^JANTS TO_-A BLACK PERSON--WHO WANTS TO VOTE IN ANI ELECTI

IN DURHAM COUNTY IS UNABLE TO DO SO?

A OTHER THAN THE.-THEY CAN, I F THEY ARE ABLE TO

GET TO THE POLLING PLACE AND HAVE THE MOTIVATION TO GET

THERE.

a oTHER THAN MOTIVATION FOR A Mot,lENT, IF THEY

ARE UNABLE IN ANY WAY TO GET TO THE POLLING PLACE, DOES

NORTH CAROLINA AND DURHAM COUNTY HAVE A PROCESS FOR

ABSENTEE VOTING?

A YES.

A DOES THAT INCLUDE PEOPLE I./HO ARE iNFIRM AND

ARE,UNABLE TO GET TO THE POLLS?

A YES.

q IS THERE ANY REASON OTHER THAN MOTiVATION

WHY A BLACK PERSON WHO WANTS TO VOTE IN AN ELECTION IS

UNABLE TO VOTE?

A OTHER THAN THE SAME REASONS I DESCP.IBED FOR

ACCESSIBI LITY FOR REGISTRATION--.JOBS, TRANSPORTATION,

THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

A NOW, YOU STATED IN YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY THAT

IT IS YOUR BELIEF TIAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THAT Io
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THEY ASK FOR TIME OFF TO REGISTER TO VOTE THAT THEY

BELIEVE THEIR EMPLOYERS WON'T BE PLEASED I,/ITH THAT?

THAT WHAT YOU SAID?

A YEAH. THERE ARE CERTAIN INSTANCES IIHERE THAT

IS TRUE, GIVEN THE HOURS FOR REGISTRATION OF THE BOARD

OF ELECTION AS THE TIMEFRAME I TALKED ABOUT WAS LIKE 9:OO

TO 5:00 OR 8:00 TO 5:00.

A I GOT THE IMPRESSION YOU MEANT THAT THE

EMPLOYER WOULDNTT BE PLEASED WITH THE FACT THAT A BLACK

PERSON REGISTERED TO VOTE. IS THAT WHAT YOU I'IEANT TO SAY

NO. NO. I MEAN TAKING TIME OFF FROM WORK TO

REGISTER OR TO GET TO THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS BEFORE IT

CLOSES.

A THE POINT BEING THAT THE EMPLOYER BELIEVES

THAT THE PERSON OUGHT TO REGISTER TO VOTE ON HIS OWN TIME

RATHER THAN ON PAID TIME? IS THAT THE IDEA?

YES.

DO YOU THINK THERE ARE ANY BLACK BUSINESSPEO

WHO FEEL THAT WAY?

I HAVENIT FOUND THAT TO BE THE CASE.

DOES THE DURHAM COMMITTEE ON OCCASION WORK

WITH GROUPS THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE IN SELECTING AND

ENDORSING CANDIDATES FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

IS

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

l/rR . LEONARD:

WHAT COMMITTEE IS THAT?

I THOUGHT THAT THE WITNES

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAD TESTIFIED THAT HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE DURHAM COUNTY

COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a DiP YOU NOT IN YOUR DIRECT___

A (TUTTNPOSING) DURHAM COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS

OF BLACK PEOPLE.

A KNOWN AS THE DURHAM COMMITTEE?

A YES.

a THAT IS A PREDOMINANTLy BLACK ORGAT.IIZATION?

A R IGHT.

a DoES 
" 

ro** FROM TIME TO TIME WITH I^/HITE

GROUPS I N THE SELECT I OI\I AIID ENDORSEMENT oF CAND I DATES ?

A OUR ENDORSEMENT PROCESS IS ALWAYS INDEPENDENT

OF ANY ORGANIZATION. THERE MAY BE DIALOGUE AND DISCUSSI

I\,iTH OTHER ORGANTZAT IONS. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT

OUR ORGANIZATION INDEPENDENTLY I'1AKES ITS OWN DECISIONS.

a WELL, DO yOU HoLD MEETiNGS FRoM TIME T0 TIME

WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE DURHAM VOTERS ALLIANCE?

A I{E HOLD MEETINGS WITH THE DURHAM VOTERS

ALLIANCE, SENIOR CITIZENS GROUPS--MANY GROUPS FROM TIME

TO TIME ON ALL KINDS OF ISSUES.

MR. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

EXAMINATION

THAT IS ALL I HAVE.

NO FURTI-1ER OUEST I ONS .

11:21 A.M.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 e76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MR. LOVETT, IN YOUR TESTIMONY ABOUT YOUR

EFFORTS PERSONALLY IN SEEKING TO INCREASE BLACK VOTER

REGISTRATION OVER THE NUMBER OF'YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN

ENGAGED, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE WILLINGNESS OF

BLACKS TO REGISTER IN YOUR EXPERIENCE DEPENDING UPON

THEIR AGE?

A YES. OUR BEST PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN SENIOR

CITIZENS, MIDDLE AGED GROUPS. YOUNG PEOPLE_-PROGRESS IS

VERY SLOW. THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO REGISTER FOR ANYTHING.

A DID YOU HEAR THE WITNESS FROM WINSTON-SALEM

AND CHARLOTTE--PERHAPS PRIMARILY THE WITNESS FROM

CHARLOTTE, MS. LYNCH?

YES, SIR.

WHO TESTIFIED THAT THEIR GREATEST DiFFICULTY

WAS IcITH THE OLDER ELEMENT?

A WELL, LET M; BACK uP. oF THE PEoPLE l.,Ho---

a (rNreRposING) UtpeRSTAND I AM NOT CHALLENGING

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. I AM SIMPLY ASKING YOU IF---

A (trurrRposING) cournASTED TO YOUNG PEOPLE, I

WOULD SAY YOUNG PEOPLE VJOULD BE THE BiGGEST PROBLEM, MOST

DEFINITELY. AND WHEN SENIORS DO REGISTER, THEY TEND TO

COME OUT AND VOTE ON A MORE FREQUENT BASIS THAN THE YOUNG

PEOPLE.

A SO YOUR EXPERIENCE IN DURHAM COUNTY IS THAT

a

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THERE IS A GREATER WILLINGNESS ON THE PART OF THE OLDER

BLACK CITIZENS TO REGISTER AND TO VOTE THAN YOU ARE

FINDING AMONG THE YOUNGER GENERATION?

PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO ULTII'IATELY VOTE--WHO

ULTIMATELY REGISTER TO COME OUT TO VOTE.

a WOULD YOU VENTURE BASED UPON YOUR OIVN F:FFORTS

WITH THESE VARIOUS AGE GROUPS AN EXPLANATION OF WHY THAT

DIFFERENCE MIGHT EXIST? DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?

A I THINK SOME OF THAT IS RELATED TO ISSUES, THE

TIMEFRAME THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, SSNIORS HAVING SOME

I SSUES THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT. YOUi.IG PEOPLE--THER

IS A SUSPICION, BASED UPON WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME, THAT

FIRST OF ALL HESITANT TO SIGN THEIR NAME ON ANYTHII.{G;

SECONDLY, THAT IT IS REALLY NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY DIF_

FERENCE, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY h'ANT TO DO

ANYI{AY--'rTHEYrt IN GEt'IERAL TERi'{S; AND.JUST RELUCTANT TO

PARTICiPATE.

I TAKE IT THAT I.4EANS THAT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE

THERE IS NOT II',I DURHAM COUNTY THE KIND OF LINGERING }1IS-

INFORMATION IN THE OLDER BLACK CITIZENS ABOUT THE

CONTINUED EXISTENCE OF LITERACY REQUIREMENTS AND THINGS

OF THAT TYPE? YOU DO NOT ENCOUNTER THAT?

I ENCOUNTER SOME OF THAT--YES; DEFINITELY.

EXAMINATION Ll:25 A.i{.

F P. O, Box 26i63
lJ Brl.lgh, Hodn c.Ethr a76tt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PI{OENIX, ARIZONA

BY JUDGE BRITT:

A YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WOULD NOT RUN FOP. PUBL]

OFFICE IN DURHAM BECAUSE OF THE MULTI-MEI4BER DISTRICT

ASPECT OF ATTACKING THAT JOB OVER THERE?

A RIGHT.

A DOES THAT MEAN THAT IF YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY

TO RUN FOR A POSITION IN A SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICT, YOU

WOULD DO SO; OR I S TI-.II S MERELY A THEORETI CAL THINKI NG

ON YOUR PART?

A I I^,OULD THII.IK THAT I WOULD HAVE A BETTER

OPPORTUNITY IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTP.ICT THAN A MULTI-

MEMBER DISTRICT. I FRANKLY DONIT THINK THAT I COULD GET

THE APPE,AL FROM WHITE VOTERS THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO

GET ELECTED. THAT I.IAS MY REASON FOR SAYiNG THAT.

A YOU HAVE NEVER REALLY CONSIDERED RUNNING

YOURSELF SERIOUSLY ENOUGH TO HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION?

A WELL, I HAVE NOT REALLY FOCUSED ON THAT

PARTICULAR RACE AS SUCH. BI.,T T,'OU KNOT',, IF YOU ASKED ME

TODAY WOULD I DO IT, THE ANSWER WOULD BE NO.

E XAM I NAT I ON IL:25A.T,1.

BY JUDGE DUPREE:

A WHERE IS LJEROME ROAD, THE STREET WHICH YOU

LiVE ON?

A JEROME O1OO I S IN PREC INCT 34 .JUST BELOW--INo
F P. O. Bd 2atc!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976-a571
PHO€NIX, ARIZONA

A THE UPPER PART ?

A SHOULD I POINT TO THAT?

A THERE ARE TWO BLUE AREAS-_THE

THEN THE DARK BLUE?

Cour-o r po r NT To

THE UPPER PART OF THAT LOI^/ER

RECENTLY ANNEXED AS OF JULY 1

JUDGE PHi LLI PS:

PLEASE, MR. LOVETT, BY THE

THE WI TNESS :

BLUE AREA. IT IJAS BEEN

OF THIS YEAR INTO THE CITY.

LIGHT BLUE AND

IT , PLTASE ?

IDENTIFY IT, IF YOU WILL,

NUMBER.

PRECINCT 34, JUST BELOW

LIVE (TI.IOICATING).

ALL R i GHT. THANK YOU.

DOES COUI..ISEL HAVE ANY

THANK YOU, MR. L0VETT.

. MAY MR. LOVETT BE EXCUSE

THE RED L INE HERE, I S T./HEP.E I

LIUDGE DUPREE:

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

FURTHER QUESTIONS?

MR. LEONARD: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS,

YOUR HONOR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MS. WINNER:

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : WELL, SUBJECT TO THE HOLD

THAT I PUT ON HIM FOR THE VERY LIMITED PURPOSE, IF YoU

CAN ASSURE MR. LEONARD THAT DOWN THE ROAD SOMEWHERE YOU

MIGHT NEED TO TAKE ME UP ON IT, WE CAN LET HIM GO NOW.

JUDGE DUPREE: MAY I SUGGEST THAT AS A

POSSIBLE WAY OF AVOIDING HIS HAVING TO RETURN, THAT HE

MAKE AN OFFER OF PROOF ON THAT NOW?

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I"IR. LEONARD : WE CAN DO THAT, YOUR

HONOR.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS : MR. LOVETT, I^/OULD yOU

MIND TAKING THE STAND BRIEFLY FOR ONE QUESTION?

THE WITNESS: YES.

R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 11:26 A.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATIONS WITH REPP.ESEN.

TATIVE SPAULDING iN THE SPRiNG OF 1982 WITH RESPECT TO TH

I.SSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A I AM SURE I DID.

A WHAT WAS REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDINGIS POSITION?

A RELATIVE TO DURHAM COUNTY?

A GENERALLY?

. A GENERALLY,. I THINK HE WAS IN FAVOR OF SINGLE_

MEMBER DISTRiCTS.

A WHAT WAS HIS POSITION WITH RESPECT TO DURHAM

C OUNTY ?

A HE DiD NOT WITI{OUT QUALIFICATION SAY THAT HE

WOULD BE IN FAVOR OF THE SINGLE-MEI4BER DISTRICT IN THAT

PARTI CULAR CASE.

A IS IT FAIR TO SAY, MR. LOVETT, THAT YOU CAME

AWAY FROM THAT CONVERSATION OR CONVERSATIONS WITH REPRE-

SENTATIVE SPAULDING-l/JITH THE RATHER CLEAR IMPRESSION THAT

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

F P. O- Bd 2at.ll
Ll tu5dr r{odh crEilil 27cil

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA



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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING FAVORED SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT

FOR ALL OF THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT COUNTIES EXCEPT

DURHAM COUNTY?

A I DIDNIT GET THAT DISTII{CT CONCLUSION OUT OF

THAT CONVERSATION.

A IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU GOT NO DISTINCT

CONCLUSiON THAT REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WAS IN FAVOR OF

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS UNIVERSALLY FOR THE STATE?

A GENERALLY HE WAS iN FAVOR OF SINGLE_MEMBER

DISTRICTS.

A WITHOUT SPECIFICITY, HOWEVER?

A YES.

MR. LEONARD: THAT I S ALL.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THANK YOU, MR. LOVETT.

MS. WINNER: MAY I ASK A QUESTION

ABOUT THAT?

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 11:28 A.

BY MS. WINNER:

A DO YOU KNOI^I WHETHER REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING

ULTiMATELY INTRODUCED A PLAN FOR DIVIDING DURHAM COUNTY

INTO SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A I AI.,I NOT SURE. HE MAY HAVE. I AM NOT SURE.

A DID YOU DISCUSS THAT I^,ITH HIM?

A I DONI T RACALL SPECI FI CALLY.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBTNG. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE PHiLLIPS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YoU,

MR. LOVETT.

(wlrNrss rxcusro. )

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : THE COURT WI LL ADMI T THAT

EVIDENCE AS OFFERED.

MS. WINNER:

BUTTERFIELD.

PLAINTIFFS CALL G. K.

(wHrReuRott,

G. K. BUTTERFIELD, JR.

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOWS: )

D I RE CT EXAM I NAT I ON 1Li3OA.M.

BY MS. WINNER:

A WILL YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?

A G. K. BUTTERFI ELD, .JR.

Q WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS, MR. BUTTERFIELD?

A     

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN WILSON?

A I HAVE LIVED IN WILSON ALL OF MY LIFE WITH THE

EXCEPTION OF A PERIOD OF TIME IN WHICH I WAS AWAY FOR MY

HIGFIER EDUCATION AND WHEN I WAS IN THE MILITARY.

a WHAT rs YouR occUPATIOI'l?

A I AI.1 AN ATTORNEY.

A FOR THE R.ECORD, WHAT IS YOUR RACE?

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I AM BLACK.

A AND YOUR AGE?

A 36.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF YOUR

CLIENTELE?

A IN MY LAW PRACTICE?

a YES?

A I WOULD SAY 95 PERCENT BLACK.

a Do You BELONG TO ANY PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS

A YES. I BELONG TO THE AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATI

THE NATIONAL BAR ASSOCIATION; THE NORTH CAROLINA ASSOCIA-

TION OF BLACK LAWYERS, OF WHICH I AM THE PRESIDENT; THE

NORTH CAROLINA STATE BAR. THAT IS ABOUT IT.

A WHAT IS THE NATIONAL BAR ASSOCIATION?

A THAT IS A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK NATIONAL ORGANI

ZATJON OF BLACK ATTORNEYS.

a cAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT YOUR INVOLVE-

MENT IN POLITICS IN WILSON ^COUNTY?

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, SO

THAT THE RECORD IS CLEAR--I BELIEVE THIS ISSUE HAS COME

UP BEFORE. BUT THE STATE I S GOI NG TO OB.JECT TO ANY

TESTIMONY T''ITH RESPECT TO THESE COVERED COUNTI ES, UNLESS

IT IS OFFERED BY THE PLAINTIFFS WITH RESPECT TO THEIR

14TH AMENDMENT CLAIM VERSUS THEIR STATUTORY CLAIM, ON

THE GROUND THAT THE_STATUTORY ISSUE HAS BEEN DECIDED

A P. O. !d 2Etag
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PURSUANT TO SECTiON 5 OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT; AND

THAT THIS COURT HAS NO JURISDICTION TO RETRY THE STATUTO

I SSUES.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL RECEIVE THE

EVIDENCE SUBJECT TO THAT OBJECTION. AND WE WILL GIVE A

CLEAR INDICATION IN ANYTHING THAT WE SAY AS TO THE WAY

WE CONSIDERED THE EVIDENCE. SO YOU WILL BE PROTECTED.

MR. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

YOUR HONOR, PERHAPS NOT

NO}.J--BUT I.IE WERE NOT AWARE OF THAT ISSUE UNTIL WE

RECEIVED--ACTUALLY UNTIL A DAY BEFORE WE RECEIVED THE

BRIEF. MAY WE HAVE SOME OPPORTUNITY AT SOME TIME TO

ADDRESS THAT ISSUE?

L,UDGE PHI LLI PS : BEFORE THI S COURT SAYS

ANYTHING ABOUT THIS ISSUE, THERE I^IILL BE AN OPPORTUNITY

FOR BOTH SiDES TO ADDRESS IT WITH MEMORANDA.

MS. WINNER: THANK YOU.

BY MS. WINNER:

A MR. BUTTERFIELD, WILL YOU DESCRIBE YOUR

INVOLVEMENT IN THE ELECTORAL POLITICS I}I WILSON COUNTY?

A I WOULD SAY THAT MY POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT GOES

BACK TO L953.

A HOW OLD WERE YOU AT THAT TIME?

A I VJAS SIX YEARS OF AGE.

A WHAT I'AS Y9UR INVOLVEMENT THEN?

F P. O- eor 2il6!l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A MY FATIIER RAN FOR THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN III

WILSON AS THE FIRST BLACK TO EVER OFFER HIMSELF FOR THAT

POSITION. AND SO I CAN PROBAtsLY WITH ACCURACY TRACE THE

POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS IN WILSON FROM 1953 UP TO THE

CURRENT TIME.

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FATHERIS CANDIDACY?

A IN L951 THE CITY OF WILSON UTILIZED SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN--A PURE SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICT PLAN. WE HAD SIX ALDERMEN, EACH ELECTED

FROM A SINGLE DISTRICT.

- AND MY FATHER RAN FROM DiSTRICT 3, WHICH AT

THE TIME HAD GROWN TO A POPULATION OR AT LEAST A VOTER

REGISTRATION OF ABOUT 50 PERCENT BLACK. AND THERE WAS A

TIE VOTE FOR THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN.

AND TO RESOLVE THE TIE, THE TWO NAMES WERE

DEPOSITED INTO A HAT.. AND A CHILD DREW NAMES. AND MY

FATHER'S NAME WAS SELECTED. AND SO HE BECAME A CITY

ALDERMAN IN 195].

HOI{ LONG VJAS HE A CITY ALDERMAN?

THEY HAD TWO_YEAR TERMS AT THAT TIME. AND

OF COURSE, THEY STILL DO HAVE TWO-YEAR TERMS. HE RAN

AGAIN IN 1955 AND WAS RE-ELECTED IN 1955 FROM THE THIRD

WARD. AND AFTER HIS SECOND ELECTION, HE WAS APPOINTED

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BUDGET COMMITTEE FOR THE CITY. THIS

WAS IN 1955.

a

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT IN

THE CITY OF WILSON AFTER THAT?

A IT WAS CHANGED SUDDENLY BETWEEN THE 1955 AND

THE Ig57 ELECTION TO AN AT-LARGE SYSTEM OF ELECTIONS,

WHICH IS THE CURRENT SYSTEM WE HAVE TODAY. AND HE WAS

DEFEATED IN 1957.

A DID HE RUN AT LARGE IN L957?

A HE RAN AT LARGE IN L957 AND CAME IN LAST

PLACE.

A WHEN WAS THE NEXT TIME SOMEBODY BLACK WAS

ELECTED TO THE CITY 
'OU*CI'OR 

THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN OF

THE CITY OF WILSON?

A t975.

a cAN YOU CONTINUE TO DESCRIBE YOUR OWN INVoLVE

MENT IN THE POLITICS OF WILSON COUNTY?

, A WELL, AS I.SAID EARLIER, I WAS BORN INTO A

FAMILY THAT WAS VERY ACTIVE POLITICALLY IN MY COMMUNITY.

AND FROM THE AGE OF SIX YEARS ON UP, I HAD A RINGSIDE

SEAT IN WHAT WAS GOING ON POLITICALLY IN THE COMMUNITY.

AS I BEGAN TO GET OLDER, I BECAME MORE

INVOLVED. AND ESPECIALLY WHEN I BECAME A REGISTERED

VOTER IN 1968 IS WHEN I REALLY GOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED INT

THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

IN 1968 WE HAD A BLACK STATEWIDE CANDIDATE FO

GOVERNOR AT THAT TI[E, REGINALD HAT{KINS. AND WE HAD A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, MLEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BLACK CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE IN THE SECOND CONGRESSION\

AL DISTRICT, EVA CLAYTON. AND THAT WAS REALLY MY FIRST

PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT IN CAMPAIGNING.

A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN CAMPAIGNING FOR

BLACK CANDIDATES SINCE THEN?

A I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN MOST OF THE CAMPAIGNS

OF BLACK CANDIDATES IN THE CITY OF WiLSON SINCE I968.

IN FACT, I HAVE PROBABLY MANAGED MOST OF THE CAMPAIGNS

THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN.

A HAVE YOU EVER RUN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE YOUR-

SELF?

A I TRIED IT ONE TIME.

A WHEN WAS THAT?

A 7977. I RAN FOR CITY COUNCIL. LET ME SAY

THAT A BLACK WAS ELECTED TO THE CITY COUNCIL IN T975 FROM

A COALITION EFFORT. A\D IN 1977, THAT BLACK CANDIDATE

DID NOT SEEK RE-ELECTION. AND I RAN THAT YEAR AS A

CANDIDATE SPONSORED BY THE BLACK COMMUNITY. AND I LOST.

A I,/AS ANY OTHER'i BLACK PERSON ELECTED THAT YEAR?

A NO OTHER BLACK WAS RUNNING THAT YEAR.

a ARE yOU A MEMBER OF ANy POLITTCAL ORGANTZA_

TIONS OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZAT IONS IN WILSON COUNTY?

A YES. I WAS THE FOUNDER AND PAST PRESIDENT OF

THE WILSON CoUNTY pEOpLE FOR PROGRESS, l'/HICH IS ANALAGoUS

TO THE DURHAM COMMITTEE IN THE DURHAM CONTEXT. IT IS THE

Ft P. O. !6 AtGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

POLITICAL ORGANiZATION IN THE BLACK

A HOW MANY MEMBERS DOES THE

PEOP LE _-_

COMMUN I TY.

WI LSON COUNTY

(TrureRposING) roR PRoGRESs.

HOW MANY MEMBERS DOES THAT HAVE?

A WE HAVE UNLIMITED MEMBERSHIP. IT IS OPEN TO

ANY PERSON WHO HAS AN INTEREST IN THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK

PEOPLE IN THE CITY AND COUNTY OF WILSON. IT IS NOT

RESTRICTED TO RACE. HOWEVER, THE ORGANIZATION AT THE

PRESENT TIME IS ALL BLACK AND HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE NOW

FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS. I DO NOT HOLD AN OFFICE AT THE

PRESENT TIME EXCEPT TO SERVE ON THE POLITICAL ACTION

COMM I TTEE.

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ELECTION RETURNS IN

WILSON COUNTY?

A YES. I AM GENERALLY FAMILIAR

THE RETURNS. I ANALYZE.THE RETURNS AFTER

TO SEE WHAT NOT TO DO THE NEXT TIME.

WITH MOST OF

EACH ELECTION

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF INTEGRATION OF

SCHOOLS IN WILSON COUNTY?

A YES. I BEGAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN L953. AT THAT

TIME, SCHOOLS WERE SEGREGATED TOTALLY, IN PRACTICE AND BY

LAW. AND I^'E RETAINED A DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM UP UNTIL

AROUND 1972, AT WHIcH TIME wE HAD TOTAL INTEGRATIoN--

TOTAL DESEGREGATION, WIlICH WAS MANDATED BY THE THEN
25

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DEPARTMENT OF HEI^/.

THAT IS THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF HEALT

EDUCATION AND WELFARE?

THAT IS RIGHT. SO FROM 153 UP UNTIL 172 WE

HAD--WELL, LET ME PHRASE IT THIS WAy: FROM t53 UNTIL

1965 WE HAD NO INTEGRATION AT ALL. IN 1966 I THINK WE

HAD FOUR OR FIVE BLACK STUDENTS WI-IO WERE ADMITTED TO THE

FORMERLY ALL-WHITE HiGH SCHOOL. BUT ESSENTIALLY WE HAD

SEGREGATED SCHOOLS UP UNTIL I972.

WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL INTEGRATION IN

WILSON COUNTY?

A I WOULD SAY IT IS PRACTICALLY NON-EXISTENT.

THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. BUT ESSENTIALLY THERE IS NO SOCIA

INTEGRATION OF CLUBS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT EXIST

IN THE COMMUNITY.

. A ARE CHURCHES IN WILSON COUNTY INTEGRATED?

A NO. I KNOW ONE PERSON WHO BELONGS TO AN ALL-

WHITE CHURCH. BUT EXCEPT EOR THAT ONE EXCEPTION, THE

CHURCHES ARE SEGREGATED, AS WELL AS MANY OTHER PHASES OF

COMMUNITY LI FE.

ARE THEP.E COUNTRY CLUBS IN \.JILSON COUNTY?

THERE ARE; YES.

OF ANY

WHAT IS THEIR LEVEL OF INTEGRATION?

TO MY KNOI,ILEDGE, THERE ARE NO BLACK MEMBERS

OF THE COUNTRY CLUBS IN WILSON.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779-3619 876.4s71

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE RESIDENTIAL-_THE RACIAL

SEGREGATION OR INTEGRATION OF RESIDENCES IN WILSON COUN

WE PRIMARILY HAVE TWO COMMUNITIES, ONE BLACK

AND ONE I,JHITE. IN RECENT YEARS, THERE HAS BEEN SOME

TENDENCY TO INTEGRATE SOME OF THE FORMERLY SEGREGATED

COMMUNITIES. BUT TO PUT IT ON THE MAP AND TO LOOK AT IT,

THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT COMMUNITIES, ONE BLACK AND ONE

WHITE, DIVIDED BY A RAILROAD TRACK.

A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT INTEGRATION

IN WILSON COUNTY?

- A IT IS NOT WHAT

ING, HOWEVER. DURING THE

TREMENDOUS PROBLEM BECAUSE

EMPLOYERS TO EMPLOY BLACK

THE]IR BUSINESSES.

IT OUGHT TO BE. IT IS IMPROV-

SIXTIES, EMPLOYMENT WAS A

OF THE UNWILLINGNESS OF WHITE

PEOPLE IN THEIR PLANTS AND IN

. BUT WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE SOME CHANGE IN

THE POSITIVE DIRECTION. BUT THERE IS STILL A LOT TO BE

DESIRED. WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF INDUSTRY TO COME IN, SUCH

AS FIRESTONE AND KERR GLASS AND MA.JOR CORPORATIONS WHO

HAVE A VERY GOOD EQUAL OPPORTUNITY POSTURE.

BUT I N I.IANY OTHER CASES OF COMMUN I TY L I FE,

BLACKS DO NOT HOLD POSITIONS IN BUSINESS--BUSINESSES,

RESTAURANTS, THAT NATURE. IN THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY, I

MIGHT SAY, THE \{ORK FORCE IS PREDOMINANTLY BLACK.

WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF INTEGRATION--OR WHAT IS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE PAY RANGE OF THE JOBS IN THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY?

MINIMUM WAGE, ENTRY LEVEL WAGES.

WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF INTEGRATION OF SMALL

EMPLOYERS--SAY, UNDER 25 EMPLOYEES--IN WILSON COUNTY?

A IN MOST BUSINESSES THAT HIRE 25 OR LESS

EMPLOYEES, I TVOULD SAY THAT VERY FEW HAVE BLACK EMPLOYEES

HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY EFFORTS TO GET

BLACK CITIZENS TO REGISTER TO VOTE?

I HAVE. I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN THE VOTER

REGISTRATION AREI.IA AND HAVE BEEN FOR SOME TIME.

HOW EARLY DID YOU BEGIN THOSE EFFORTS?

I WOULD SAY AROUND 1968, WHEN A GROUP OF US

WALKED FROM RALEIGH TO WILSON IN AN EFFORT TO STIMULATE

VOTER REGISTRATION_-NOT ONLY IN WILSON, BUT IN EASTERN

NORTH CAROLINA. THAT WAS MY FIRST MAJOR INVOLVEMENT IN

VOTER REGISTRATION.

a How WERE YOU ,\LLOWED TO REG I STER I N 196I I N

I,' I LSON COUNTY ?

A IN 1968 AND UP UNTIL RECENTLY, I MIGHT SAY,

THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE WILSON COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS

WAS NOT TO ALLOW VO'TER REGISTRATION OUTSIDE OF THE COURT-

HOUSE--THE COUNTY COUR.THOUSE. WE TRIED ON MANY OCCASIONS

TO PERSUADE THE COUNTY BOAR.D OF ELECTIONS TO DECENTRALIZE

THE VOTER REGISTRATION PROCESS AND TO,\LLOW REGISTRATION

ON WEEKENDS AND AFTER HOUR.S AND BY DEPUTY REGISTRARS.

A

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND WE WERE MET WITH RESISTANCE FOR YEARS

AND YEARS. AND WE WERE TOLD THAT THE OFFICIALS DID NOT

BELIEVE IN REGISTRATION OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE. THEY

FELT AS THOUGH THAT IF BLACK PEOPLE WERE UNWILLING TO

MAKE THE SACRIFICE AND COME TO THE COURTHOUSE FOR 15

MINUTES IN ORDER TO REGISTER, THEN THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

SHOULD NOT MAKE THAT PROCESS MORE,\AVAI LABLE.

A NOW, WHAT PARTICULAR PROBLEMS FOR BLACK PEOPLE

DID COURTHOUSE REGISTRATION PRESENT?

A I KNOW OF THREE PP.OBLEMS. THERE MAY BE OTHERS.

BUT I KNOW OF THREE DIRECTLY. ONE IS THAT MANY BLACK

PEOPLE WORK 9:OO TO 5:OO--B:OO To 5:OO--AITID ARE UNABLE

TO GET OFF TO COME TO THE COURTHOUSE FOR THE PURPOSE OF

REGISTRATION. THAT WOULD BE ONE PEASON.

A SECOND REASON IS THE MATTER OF TRANSPORTA-

TION. WE HAVE A VERY. LARGE COUNTY. AND STANTONSBURG,

FOR EXAMPLE, IS ABOUT 20 MINUTES FROM THE COURTHOUSE.

AND TRANSPORTATION IS A PROBLEM. MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE

CARS AND DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO OTHER MEANS OF TRANSPORTA-

TION. AND SO IT BECOMES A VERY DIFFICULT TASK TO GET TO

THE COURTHOUSE.

THE THIRD REASON, WHICH I THINK IS AS IMPOR_

TANT AS ANY OF THE OTHERS THAT HAVE BEEN STATED, IS THAT

MANY PEOPLE--BLACK PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY ELDERLY BLACK

PEOPLE-.ARE AFRAID O_F THE COURTHOUSE. THAT MAY SOUNDo 25

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ABSURD. BUT IN DEALING WITH ILLITERATE, ELDERLY BLACK

PEOPLE, WE FIND THIS AI/FUL FEAR OF THE COURTHOUSE

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW--SOME OF THE REASONS THAT I HAVE HEARD,

THEY SAY THAT THEY REMEMBER ALL WHITE JURIES. THEY

REMEMBER WHEN BLACK PEOPLE HAD TO SIT ON ONE SIDE OF THE

COURTROOM. AND I^/HITE PEOPLE HAD TO SIT ON THE OTHER

SIDE OF THE COURTROOM.

THE SHERIFF IS WHITE--ALWAYS HAS BEEN;-THE-.

CLERK OF COURT, REGISTER OF DFEDS, TAX COLLECTOR, TAX

SUPERVISOR. AND SO THERE IS AN EQUATION MADE BY ELDERLY

BLACK--AND I SEE THIS MORE IN ELDERLY THAN I DO YOUNGER

BLACKS--THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TO FEAR ABOUT THE

COURTHOUSE. AND SO MANY PEOPLE FOR THAT ONE REASON DO

NOT MAKE THE TRIP TO THE COURTHOUSE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ARE YOU DESCRIBING A

PRESENT SITUATION OR ARE YOU RESPONDING TO THE SITUATION

AS I T EX I STED AT TTIC T TPTC YOU DESCRI BE OF COURTHOUSE

REGISTRATION ONLY?

THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. SOME OF THAT

EXISTS TODAY. BUT I DID SAY THAT IT IS MORE PREVALENT

AMONG 55 YEAR OLDS AND OLDER, I WOULD SAY.

BY MS. WINNER:

A WHEN WAS VOTER REGISTRATION FIRST ALLOWED

OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE?

A SEVERAL YEARS AGO:_I. WOULD SAY IN THE LATE

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFF|CE, RAtElcH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SEVENTIES--THE GENERAL ASSMEBLY MADE IT POSSiBLE FOR

REGISTRARS OF THE VARIOUS PRECINCTS TO BE AUTHORIZED TO

REGISTER PERSONS TO VOTE. AND SO OUR FOCUS THEN BECAME

TO GET SOME BLACK REGISTRARS IN THE VARIOUS PRECINCTS WHO

COULD REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE. AITID SO THE FIRST EFFORT

wAS, I WOULD 'SAY, 1978. "

A WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF YOUR EFFORT TO GET

BLACK REGISTRARS?

A WE WERE ABLE TO GET TWO OR THREE BLACK

REGISTRARS--ONE IN AN ALL-BLACK PRECINCT AND TWO OTHERS

Iry 5O-50 TYPE PRECINCT;. BUT THOSE REGISTRARS AT THAT

TIME WERE RESTRICTED TO REGISTRATION WITHIN THEIR

PRECINCT. AND SO THEY COULD NOT CROSS THE PRECINCT

BOUNDARIES.

A WHAT PROBLEM DID THAT PRESENT?

. A THAT MEANT THAT THE REGISTRATION BY THESE

OFFICIALS HAD TO BE CONCENTRATED IN THEIR HOI4E COMMUNITY.

AND THEY COULD NOT GO TO LARGE GATHERINGS, SUCH AS

CHURCHES AND PICINICS AND OTHER PLACES I,JHERE PEOPLE FROM

A.LL OVER CAME.

a DID YOU OR oTHER MEMBERS 0F THE BLACK COMMUNI

TRY TO EXPAND THE REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES OF PRECINCT

REGISTRARS?

A YES. WE APPROACHED THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AND

ASKED THAT THE RESTR_ICTION BE DROPPED SO THAT REGISTRARS

a l. O. lor ,tat
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-36tC 876-4571

PI-IOENIX. ARIZONA

AND .JUDGES COULD TRAVEL THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY WITHOUT

RESTRICTIONS. AND I,JE 1^'ERE OPPOSED, BECAUSE THE OFFICIALS

FELT AS THOUGH THE REGISTRATION SHOULD ONLY 'IAKE PLACE

IN THE REGISTRARIS PRECINCT AND SHOULD NOT BE ELSEWHERE.

AND THAT WAS THE STEADFAST PHILOSOPHY OF THE

COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS--THAT THEY !{()ULD NOT I.IAKE

REGISTRATION ANY MORE CONVENIENT THAN THEY HAD TO BY LAW.

AND THAT CONTINUED UP UNTIL THE CITIZEN AWARENESS YEAR

CAME ABOUT FROM THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS. THAT IS

WHEN IT BEGAN TO CI,IANGE.

WHAT YEAR WAs THAT?

1982--LAST YEAR.

ALL RIGHT. NOI^,, ARE THERE ANY SPECIAL REGIS-

TRARS IN WILSON COUNTY?

THE 1981 GENERAL ASSEMBLY MANDATED THAT EACH

COUNTY WITH 15 OR MORE PRECINCTS WOULD HAVE AT LEAST TWO

REGISTRARS, TWO DEPUTY.-WELL, SPECIAL REGISTRATION

COMMISSIONERS--ONE DEMOCRAT AND ONE REPUBLICAN.]

AND THAT I S WHAT WAS APPOINTED-_ONE DEMOCRAT

AND ONE REPUBLICAN--EVEN THOUGH THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAD

REQUESTED THAT NUMEROUS SPECIAL REGISTRATION COI'{MISSION-

ERS BE APPOINTED. THEY ONLY DID WHAT THE LAW REQUIRED

THEM TO DO.

A NO!^I, AFTER THE PREC INCT REG I STRARS WERE AL-

LO'//ED TO REGISTER PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THEIR PRECINCTS, HAVE

F ,. O. lor 2ttct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THERE BEEN SOME FURTHER EFFORTS TO REGISTER VOTERS IN \

WI LSON COUNTY?

A IN 1982 THE WILSON COUNTY PEOPLE FOR PROGRESS

EMBARKED UPON A MASSIVE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE. IT WAS

I SUGGEST, IN RESPONSE TO THE CANDIDACY OF I4R. MICHAUX,

WHO WAS RUNNING FOR CONGRESS. AND THE ORGANIZAT ION I^/AS

VERY SUCCESSFUL IN REGISTERING, SOME SAY, 2,OOO BLACK

PEOPLE WITHIN A SIX-WEEK SPAN OF TIME.JUST PRIOR TO THE

1 982 PR IMARY.

WHAT WAS THE RESPONSE OF THE BOARD OF ELEC-

TI.ONS TO THAT REGISTRATION EFFORT?

A WELL, THERE WAS NO RESPONSE '/,HILE IT WAS IN

PROGRESS. BUT TWO DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION, THE BOARD

OF ELECTIONS AT THE CANIVASS--AFTER EACH ELECTION THERE IS

A CANVASS, TWO DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION. AT THE CANVASS

MEETING OF THE BOARD O.F ELECTIONS, THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

CHANGED THE POLICY AND THE PROCEDURES FOR MASSIVE

REGISTRATION.

AND THE NEW PROCEDURES TO BE FOLLOV.'ED IN THE

FUTURE AFTER THAT MEETiNG WERE TO BE AS FOLLOWS. THERE

HAD TO BE A SIX-DAY NOTICE BEFORE THERE I,,IAS ANY MASS

REGISTRATION. THE NOTICE HAD TO CONTAIN THE DATE, THE

TIME, THE PLACE AND WHO WAS TO BE PR,ESENT FOR THE MASS

REGISTRATION. IT ALSO REDUCED THE COMPENSATION THAT

REGISTRARS AND JUDGES AND SPECIAL REGISTRATION

F P. O lor AlGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COMMISSIONERS WERE TO RECEIVE FROM 5O CENTS PER VOTER

TO 25 CENTS PER VOTER.

AND THESE NEW RULES WERE PROMULGATED TI^/o DAYS

AFTER THE MICHAUX ELECTION AND WERE PLACED INTO EFFECT.

I MIGHT SAY, FOR FAiRNESS, THEY WERE T.IOT ENFORCED BECAUSE

A COMPLAINT WAS I.4ADE TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMEI.IT BY THE

BLACK COMMUNITY. AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTI"IENT SAID TO THE

BOARD OF ELECTIONS THAT THESE CHANGES WERE SUBJECT TO

PRE-CLEARANCE. AND SO THEY HAVE NOT BEET,I ENFORCED.

HAVE THEY BEEN SUBMITTED?

NO. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SUBMITTED. NOW, IN

PREPARING THE BUDGET FOR IB3_84, THE COMPENSATION ASPECT

OF COMPENSAT ING THE REGI STRARS HAS BEEN COI\4PLETELY

ELIMINATED NOW" SO REGISTRARS IN THE NEXT FISCAL YEAR

WILL RECEIVE NO COMPENSATION WHATSOEVER FOR REGISTERING

PERSONS TO VOTE, WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS 50 CENTS.

A WHAT ARE THE CURRENT BARRIERS TO REGISTRATION

OF BLACK PEOPLE THAT YOU PERCEIVE IN WILSON COUNTY?

A THERE ARE NO LEGAL BARRIERS EXISTING IN OUR

COMMUNITY. REGISTRATION NOW IS EASIER THAI..I IT EVER HAS

BEEN IN OUR COUNTY. THERE ARE SOME PSYCHOLOGICAL

BARRIERS TO VOTER REGISTRATION WHICH STILL PERSIST.

A

BELIEF ON

WHAT ARE THOSE PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIERS?

ONE PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIER IS THAT THERE IS A

THE PART O F MANY PEOPLE THAT POL I T I CS I^I I LL--

F P. O. &r AtG!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ONEIS PARTICIPATION IN POLITICS WILL MAKE NO DiFFERENCE

IN THEIR INDIVIDUAL LIVES AND IN THE LIVES OF THEIR

FAMILIES. AND SO IT IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME TO GET

INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

THAT IS A PERCEPTION THAT IS ILL-FOUNDED. BUl'

MANY PEOPLE BELiEVE THAT IT WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE IF

THEY GET INVOLVED. THAT IS ONE.

THE SECOI.JD THING IS THAT, AS I ALLUDED TO

EARL I ER, THE PROBLEM OF THE COURTHOUSE BARRI ER. lrtANY

PEOPI-E SIMPLY DONIT WANT TO GO TO THE COURTHOUSE. IN MY

PRECINCT, PRECINCT 3, NOT ONLY IS THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

HOUSED IN THE COURTHOUSE, BUT WE VOTE IN THE COURTHOUSE.

THAT IS THE POLLING PLACE FOR THAT PRECINCT.

AND IT IS A LARGE BLACK PRECINCT. AND IT IS

IN THE HEART OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY--NOT THE COURTHOUSE.

BUT.THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE RESIDE IN A VERY COMPACT AREA.

AND MANY pEOpLE HAVE TOm nrr, rtl DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE

COURTHOUSE. I AM 70 YEARS OLD. I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE

COURTHOUSE BEFORE. AND I AM NOT GOING NOW.'I AND THAT

IS A BARRIER.

ANOTHER BARRIER IS THAT MOST ALL THE POLLING

PLACES ARE LOCATED IN WHITE COMMUNITIES. AND SO THE

BLACK PERSON HAS TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES TO GET TO THE

POLLING PLACE. AND IN OUR CITY--YOU WOULD HAVE TO SEE

THE PRECINCT MAP TO IEALLY UNDERSTAND IT. BUT WE HAVE

ff P. O. sq 2.l6a
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PRECISION FEPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHAT WE CALL TWO-MILE ISLANDS. yOU KNOW, WE HAVE

PRECINCTS THAT ARE TWO MILES LONG AND TWO BLOCKS IN

WIDTH. AND SO IT IS LIKE A CANE. AND SO THE FURTHEST

POINTS IN SOME OF THE PRECINCTS ARE TWO MILES APART,

WHICH MEANS THAT THE PERSON HAS TO TRAVEL PERHAPS A MILE

TO GET TO THE POLLING PLACE. AND THAT IS A BARR,IER.

DO THOSE PRECINCTS EXTEND INTO THE BLACK

COMMUNITY AND INTO THE WHITE COMMUNITY?

A YES. AS I TESTIFIED EARLIER, THE RAILROAD

TRACK DIVIDES THE TWO COMMUNITIES. AND THE PRECINCT

BOUNDARIES, WHICH htERE ineArrO BACK IN THE FORTIES, I

GUESS, RUN FROM EAST TO WEST IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION

THAN THE RAILROAD TRACK. AND SO THEY EXTEND THROUGHOUT

THE CITY IN A VERY NARROW STRIP.

AND IT HAS THE EFFECT OF REQUIRIN; PERSONS WHO

RESIDE IN THOSE PRECINC.TS TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES TO

VOTE. AND THERE IS NO COMMONALITY IN THOSE PRECINCTS.

THERE IS A VERY POOR BLACK AREA IN THE PRECINCT AND A

VERY WEALTHY ELEMENT IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.

A IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT WOULD HELP ENCOURAGE

BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION IN WILSON COUNTY?

ONE THING TI1AT WOULD HELP IMPROVE IS IF WE

COULD SEE THE PRF.-SENCE OF BLACK OFFICE HOLDERS. THAT

WOULD BE A :]TIMLILUS IN CREATII.,IG THE DESIRE ON THE PART OF

BLACK PEOPLE TO GET REGISTERED TO VOTE, IF THEY COULD25

F ?. O. 8or z!l(i
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SEE PERSONS WHO CAN BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE ELECTORAL

PROCE SS .

A WHAT IS THE EXTENT OF ELECTION OF BLACK PEOPLE

IN WILSON COUNTY?

A THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW. THEY HAVE BEEN VERY

LIMITED. WE HAVE ONE BLACK ELECTED TO THE BOARD OF

EDUCATION WHO WAS ELECTED IN 1970 AND WAS RE-ELECTED IN

.1982 . AND THAT SOUNDS ODD. BUT THERE WAS A REORGAN TZA-

TION IN THE PROCESS. AND HE DID NOT HAVE TO RUN AGAIN

UNTI L 1982.

a How MANY ME|4BERS ARE ON THE WILSON COUNTY BO

OF EDUCATION?

A N INE.

a WHAT IS THE BLACK POPULATION IN WILSON COUNTY?

A 36 I/2 PERCENT.

. q ARE THERE ANY OTHER BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS

IN WILSON COUNTY?

A WE HAVE ONE BLACK ON THE CITY COUNCIL.

A OUT OF HOW MANY MEMBERS?

A OUT OF SIX COUNCILMEMBERS--ONE OUT OF SIX.

A WHAT IS THE BLACK POPULATION OF THE CITY OF

WILSON?

A 40.27 PERCENT.

A ARE THERE AI.,IY OTHER BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS

IN WILSON COUNTY? _

F P, O. lor lltc!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NO. WE HAVE NEVER HAD A BLACK ELECTED IN

THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTY TO THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS.

I.IE HAVE TRIED AND HAVE FAILED. WE HAVE NEVER HAD A

SHERIFF OR ANY OF THE OTHER ELECTED POSITIONS, EXCEPT THE

CITY COUNCIL AND THE BOARD OF EDUCATION.

HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY EFFORTS TO

RECRUIT BLACK CANDIDATES?

EVERY ELECTION WE ATTEMPT TO RECRUIT BLACK

CANDIDATES TO RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE. AND WE HAVE A

TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DIFFICULTY IN DOING THIS, BECAUSE

THF MORE QUALIFIED-_AND I USE THOSE WORDS VERY CAREFULLY.

BUT THE MORE QUALIFIED BLACK CANDIDATES WHO T.{OULD BE

ACCEPTABLE TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY DO NOT WANT TO RUN.

AND THE STATED REASON IS THAT, III CANIT WIN.

WHY SHOULD I RUN IF I CANIT WIN?II THAT IS ALWAYS THE

RESPONSE THAT WE GET. AND SO IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO

ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.

ARE YOU FAMILIAR ^WITH THE CURRENT HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES DISTRICT WHICH CONTAINS WILSON COUNTY?

YES. WE RESIDE IN THE 8TH DISTRICT.

WHAT ELSE IS IN THAT DISTRICT?

WILSON, NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTIES.

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THERE HAS EVER BEEN

BLACK REPRESEI.ITAT I VE FROM THAT D I STR I CT ?

THERE HAS -NEVER BEEN, TO MY KNOWLEDGE.o

E t. O. lor e'ats
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DO YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE BLACK

R EPRESENTAT I VES ?

A YES. I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT THAT

BLACK PEOPLE GET ELECTED AT EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT.

IT IS GOOD GOVERNMENT TO HAVE BLACK PEOPLE AN INTEGRAL

PART OF THE SYSTEM. AND IT ALSO PROVIDES AN OPPORTUNITY

FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY TO HAVE A VOICE AT THESE

DIFFERENT LEVELS. AND SO IT IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE THAT

BLACK PEOPLE PARTICIPATE AND GET ELECTED TO THE VARIOUS

POSITIONS.

HOI^' WELL DO MEMBERS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY OF

WiLSON RELATE TO THE CURRENT REPRESENTATiVES?

MR. LEONARD: NOW, THAT, IF THE COURT

PLEASE, I THINK IS GOING WAY BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF THE

TESTIMONY OF THIS WITNESS. HE IS NOW BEING ASKED TO TAL

ABOUT HOW OTHER PEOPLE RELATE TO THEIR LEGISLATORS. NOW,

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THREE-PART HEARSAY.

MS . l^J I NNER : I WILL I^IITHDRAW THE

QUESTION.

BY MS. WINNER:

aAREYoUAWAREoFTHE--DoYoUTHINKTHATTHERE

IS A SYSTEM OR A METHOD OF ELECTING THE REPRESENTATIVES

FROM THAT DISTR,ICT WHICH WOULD BE BETTER FOR THE BLACK

C OMMUN I TY ?

YE S.

R P. O.8d 2116
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHAT IS THAT METHOD?

I HAVE LOOKED AT THE 8TH DISTRICT VERY

CAREFULLY. AND I HAVE LOOKED AT IT FOR SOME TII4E, EVEN

BEFORE IT BECAME KNOWN AS THE 8TH DISTRICT. IT I^'AS THE

7TH DISTRICT, STILL COMPP.ISED OF THE SAME THREE COUNTIES.

AND I HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER OR NOT

BLACK CANDIDATES FOR THE STATE HOUSE COULD BE SUCCESSFUL

IN THIS THREE-COUNTY AREA. AND WHILE I AM NOT PREPARED

TO SAY THAT ABSOLUTELY NO BLACK COULD EVER BE ELECTED IN

THIS FOUR-MEMBER DISTRICT, I AM WILLING TO SAY THAT IT

\^/OULD ALMOST TAKE A MINOR MIRACLE FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

IT WOULD HAVE TO TAKE A COMBINATION OF CERTAIN

VARIABLES FALLING IN PLACE. ONE VARIABLE }.IOULD HAVE TO

BE A LOW I'JHITE TURNOUT; A HIGH BLACK TURNOUT; A SOLID,

SINGLE-SHOT VOTE BY THE BLACK COI,IMUNITY; AND A VERY

ATTRACTIVE BLACK CANDIDATE TO THE WHITE COMMUNITY; AND

THE PRESENCE OF EIGHT OR TEN OR MAYBE TWELVE PERSONS

RUNNING FOR FOUR SEATS,

IF ALL OF THOSE VARIABLES FELL IN PLACE, IT

IS MY OPINION THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE WOULD BE ABLE TO,

NOT WIN THE ELECTION, BUT AT LEAST TO PLACE SUFFICIENT TO

BE IN A RUNOFF. I^,HAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE RUNOFF, I DONIT

KNOW. BUT I DONI T BELIEVE A BLACK PERSON COULD GET A

CLEAR MAJORITY, EVEN ASSUMING THOSE VARIABLES TO BE IN

PLACE, IN A PRIMARY.-

F P. O.8d 2itas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THE ONLY WAY

THAT I SEE THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN THOSE THREE

COUNTIES CAN HAVE A FAIR CHANCE TO ELECT A BLACK REPRE_

SENTATIVE WOULD BE TO HAVE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT

SYSTEM OF ELECTING MEMBERS TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTA-

T I VES. I F THAT trtIERE TO HAPPEN AND I F THE LI T.JES WERE

DRAWN FAIRLY, IT IS MY BELIEF ITHAT BLACKS WOULD COMPRISE

MOR E THAI'.I 5 O PERCENT OF ONE OF THOSE D I STR I CTS .

A WHY WOULD SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS GIVE THE

MEMBERS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO

PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS?

A IT WOULD GIVE THE BLACK COMMUNITY A BETTER

CHANCE TO PARTiCIPATE BECAUSE A BLACK PERSON WOULD BE

ELECTED FROM ONE OF THOSE FOUR DISTRICTS. THAT BLACK

PERSON WOULD RE S I DE I,'I I TH I N THE BLACK COMMUN I TY AND WOULD

HAVE. CLOSE TIES WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

AND THEREFORE, THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION

WOULD BE BETTER THAN THEY ARE PRESENTLY. AND THE BLACK

COMMUNITY COULD HAVE A ROLE IN SHAPING THE ATTITUDES AND

THE OPINION OF THE BLACK OFFICE HOLDER. AND THAT DOES

NOT EXIST PRESENTLY.

MS. WINNER: MAY I GET THIS MAP MARK

(pUnINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 87 WAS

MARKED FOR IDENTI FI CATION. )

MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?

F ,. O, lor 2|!IIIS
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU MAY .

BY MS. WINNER:

A CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS?

A YES. THIS IS A---

..JUDGE PHILLIPS: (TNTERPOSING) I-IOW IS IT-

MARKED? WHAT IS THE NUMBER?

BY MS. WINNER:

A I AM SORRY. THIS HAS BEEN MARKED AS PLAIN-

TIFFSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 87. CCULD YOU IDENTIFY WHAT IT IS?

A YES. PLAINTIFFST EXHIBIT 87 APPEARS TO BE A

PRECINCT MAP OF THE CITY OF WILSON.

q COULD YOU MARK IN GREEN THE RAILROAD TRACKS

TO WHICH YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY REFERRED?

(wtrNrss coMPLtes. )

A ARE THE DASHED LINES THE PRECINCT BOUNDARIES?

. A THAT IS CO.RRECT

A AND THE NUMBERS ARE TI.IE PRECINCT NUMBERS?

A THAT IS CORRECT..

MS. WINNER:

EXHIBIT 87 INTO EVIDENCE.

I MOVE PLAINTIFFSI

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE N0 OB.JECTION, AS

LONG AS THE I.'ITNESS CAN ASSURE US THAT TO HIS KNOWLEDGE

IT IS AN ACCURATE MAP OF THE CITY OF WILSON.

THE WI TNESS: YES. FROM MY PERSONAL

KNOI^ILEDGE, THI S I S AN ACCUR.ATE I',IAP OF THE C ITY OF WI LSON.

P. O. Bor 2tt(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : I T WI LL BE ADM I TTED.

(PUAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 87 WAS

ADI.lITTED INTO EVIDENCE. )

T4S. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUESTIONS.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, THE WITNESS

IS WITH YOU, SIR.

MS. WINNER:

SEE THE MAP?

WOULD THE COURT LIKE TO

JUDGE BRITT: YE S.

(oocumrrur HANDED UP TO BENCH. )

C ROS S -E XAM I NAT I ON L2iO3P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. BUTTERFIELD, THAT LAST EXHIBIT WHICH

COUNSEL HAD YOU IDENTIFY AND SHOWID TO YOU AND THE COURT

HAS SEEN--hIHEN DID YOU FILE YOUR FIRST LAWSUIT IN

FEDERAL COURT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THOSE PR.ECINCTS?

A WE HAVE NEVER FILED A SUIT IN FEDERAL COURT

TO REALIGN THE PRECINCTS. WE HAVE A SECTION 2 CASE RIGHT

NOW AGAINST THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS ON THE METHOD OF

E LECT I ONS.

A LETIS STICK WITH THE PRECINCT LINES. WHEN DID

YOU COMPLAIN TO THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ABOUT THOSE

PRECINCTS? _o
F P. O. ed 2atGS
LJ R.l.leh, r.ofi c.rprm ztGll



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IN 1981, I GUESS IT WAS__A COUPLE OF YEARS

AGO.

WHAT DID THEY DO ABOUT IT?

AT THE TIME, THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS HAD SUB-

MITTED A CHANGE IN ONE OF THE PRECINCT BOUNDARIES IN THE

WHITE COMMUNITY. AND WE COMPLAINED THAT NO CHANGES AT

ALL SHOULD TAKE PLACE IN PRECINCT BOUNDARIES IN THE WHITE

COMMUNITY UNLESS AND UNTIL ALL OF THE PRECINCT BOUNDARIES

WERE REDRAWN. AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN 1981.

DID YOU APPEAR AT ANY OF THE PUBLIC HEARINGS

IN 1982 OR 1981 BEFORE THE HOUSE AND SENATE REDISTRICTING

COMMITTEES WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS I.4ULTI -MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

A YES.

COMM ITTl-:E.

I MADE A THREE-MINUTE TALK TO THE .JOINT

. A DID YOU PRESENT THIS MAP AS EVIDENCE OF THE

DIFFICULTY THAT BLACKS HAVE IN THE CITY OF WILSON AS

AN EXAMPLE AS EVIDENCE TO THAT COMMITTEE?

a

A

A I DID NOT.

A WHEN DID YOU

OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

MEMBER DI STRICTS ?

FIRST COMMUNICATE TO ANY MEMBER

YOUR DI SPLEASURE WI'TH MULT I -

A I SPOKE TO ONE OR TWO OF MY FOUR REPRESENTA-

TIVES ABOUT THE REDISTRICTING DILEMMA. AND I SUGGESTED

THAT IT WAS MY OPII.IIO-N THAT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTTIICTS WOUL

F P. O. &r 2atcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BE A FAI RER WAY OF ELECTI NG MEMBERS 'TO THE GENERAL

ASSEMBLY. AND I DID NOT GET ANY FAVORABLE RESPONSE FROM

ANY OF MY REPRESENTATIVES THAT I DISCUSSED IT WITH.

A I.IHEN WAS THAT?

A THIS DEBATE BEGAN TO SURFACE IN MY COMI4UNITY

WHEN THE CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING WAS IN ISSUE. THERE

WAS SOME CONCERN A5 TO WHETHER CONGRESSMAN FOUNTAIN WOULD

BE PLACED IN A DISTRICT WITH OR WITHOUT DURHAM COUNTY.

AND SO THAT IS WHEN THE GREAT DEBATE STARTED.

AND THE HOUSE AND SENATE IISSUES CAI4E ALONG

A,FTER THE CONGRESSIONAL ISSUES SURFACED. I WOULD SAY

THAT IT WAS IN THE SPRING OF I82=-ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF

AGO.

a BUT IT WAS TH= SPRING OF 182?

A YES.

. a You sArD Y.ou APPROACHED ONE AND MAYBE TWO OF

THE HOUSE MEMBERS THAT REPRESENTED YOU?

A YES.

a DO YOU REMEMBER WHO THEY WERE; OR DO YOU

REMEMBER WHO THE ONE WAS THAT YOU ARE SURE YOU APPROACHE

A YES. I RETI:MBER SPEC IFI CALLY TALKING TO

REPRESENTATIVE FENNER--.JEANNE FENNER-_ABOUT THE SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICT CONCEPT THAT I HAD. AND I MAY HAVE TAL

TO ALLEN BARBEE ABOUT IT. BUT I AM NOT SURE.

A POL ITI CALLY YOU ARE FAI RLY CLOSE TO .JEANNE

F P. O,8or 26lcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FENNER; ARE YOU NOT?

A WELL, I HAVE NO PERMANENT POLITICAL FRIENDS.

WE HAVE [}EEN ON THE SAME SIDE ON SOME ISSUES. AND WE

HAVE BEEN OPPOSED ON SOME ISSUES.

a You coNTR I BUTED TO HER LAST CAMPAIGT'I?

A I AM AFRAID TO SAY NO. I DONIT REMEMBER. I

MAY HAVE; YES.

A YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO HER CAI,IPAIGNS AT

LEAST IN THE PAST--FINANCIALLY?

A YES.

A WHO IS THE OTHER REPRESENTATIVE YOU THINK YOU

TALKED TO?

A REPRESENTATIVE BARBEE.

A WAS THAT ON WEEKENDS WHEN THEY WERE HOME; OR

HOW DID YOU COMMUNICATE WITH THEM?

. A MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT WHEN I WENT UP TO THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BLACK LAWYERS

ON THIS SUBJECT I MAY HAVE DISCUSSED IT WITH MR. BARBEE

IN THE HALL DURING THAT VISIT. I DO NOT RECALL MAKING A

SPECIFIC TELEPHONE CALL OR WRITING HIM A SPECIFIC LETTER

ON THI S SUB.JECT. BUT I DO RECALL HAVI NG A CONVERSATI ON

WITH HIM DURING THIS TIT4E.

A WHEN DID YOU FIRST HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH

MS. WINNER ABOUT THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS I4ULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS? 
_

F P, O. Bor 2ilAl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I{S. WINNER: OBJECT I ON.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I HAVE KNoWN LESLIE

WINNER NOW FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. AND SHE IS

KEENLY INTERESTED IN THE VOTING RIGHTS AREA. I AI.1 KEENLY

INTTRESTED IN THAT SAME AREA. AND I AM SURE SHE AI.!D I

DISCUSSED IT DURING SOME OF OUR FIRST ENCOUI.ITERS, WHICH

WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EARLY PART OF L9B2' JUST AS THE CON-

TROVERSY WAS BEGINNING TO COME OUT.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a so IT wAS IN 1gg2 AT THE TrME THAT yOU BECA|4E

AWARE OF THE ISSUE THAT YOU ALSO HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH MS.

WINNER?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A WHEN DID YOU FIRST SEE THE PROPOSED OR

SUGGESTED DISTRICT THAT IS CONTAINED ON PLAINTIFF GINGLES

EXHIBIT 8(A) THAT IS BEFORE YOU AND THE COURT?

A TO BE HONEST, I SAW IT FOR THE FIRST TIME ABO

FIVE DAYS AGO.

A NOW, MR. BUTTERFIELD, PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT

YOU SAW THAT EXHIBIT HAD IT OCCURRED TO YOU THAT IT I^'OULD

BE POSSIBLE IN THE WILSON-NASH-EDGECOMBE COUNTY COMBINA-

TION TO DRAW A SINGLE-MEMBER HOUSE DISTRICT THAT 1^'AS OVER

5 O PERCENT BLACT. ?

A YES. I HAVT PLAYED WITH THE FIGURES MYSELF

F P. O. 8or 2all3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

BEG I NN I NG WHEN ?

WHENI THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WAS DEBATING THE

DiFFERENT PLANS THAT THEY HAD BEFORE IT.

NOW, MR. BUTTERFIELD, LISTEN CAREFULLY TO THIS

QUESTION. pRIOR TO YOUR A!'/ARENESS OF THE OVERALL SINGLE

VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT ISSUE IN THE SPRING OF 1982,

HAD IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO DRA\^J

A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT FROM THIS THREE-COUNTY COMBINA-

TION IN WHICH A BLACK HAD A REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY TO BE

E LECTED ?

A

a

THAT YOU

FROM?

YES.

WHAT

HAD IN

WAS THE CONFIGURATION OF THE DISTRICT

MIND THAT YOU THOUGHT A BLACK MIGHT WIN

THAT I HAD IN MIND DID NOT

MOST OF EDGECOMBE COUNTY,

PERCENT BLACK. I HAD NEVER

ALSO INCLUDE WILSON AS WELL

. A THE CONFIGURATION

INCLUDE WILSON. IT INCLUDED

WHICH IS A COUNTY THAT IS 50

ENVISIONED A PLAN THAT WOULD

AS EDGECOMBE COUNTY

SO WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT I^'HEN YOU

ENVISIONED THIS SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT THAT YOU THOUGHT

ABOUT THE I.IORTHERN PART OF EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTIES?

IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

THAT IS CORRECT. IN FACT, I DEVELOPED A PLAN

F P. O. lor 2tlas
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT HAD A 55 PERCENT BLACK DISTRICT. BUT IT COMPRISED

MOST OF EDGECOMBE COUNTY EXCLUDING TARBORO AND CERTAIN

PARTS OF WHITAKERS, WHICH IS THE NORTHERN END OF THE

DISTRICT.

a WHEN DID YOU DO THAT?

DURING THE DEBATE IN TI-I5 GENERAL ASSEI'lBLY.

WELL, NOW, YOU REMEMBER I VERY CAREFULLY ASKED

YOU WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD CONCEIVED T.HE POTENTIAL OF

SUCH A DISTRICT PRIOR TO THE SPRING OF L9B2?

A YES. I DONIT THINK THOSE THINGS ARE INCON-

SISTENT. I SAID PRIOR TO 1982. EVEN IN THE 197OIS I

WAS AWARE OF THE EFFECT THAT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS CAN

HAVE ON THE OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A BLACK CANDIDATE. SO

EVEN YEARS AGO I HAD THIS IN MIND.

A AND IN THE SEVENTIES, YOU WERE AWARE OF THE

FACT THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO DRAW A DISTRICT IN THIS

NORTHERN I.IASH.EDGECOMBE AREA WHICH MIGHT POSSIBLY ELECT

A BLACK ON A SINGLE-I4EMBER.DISTRICT BASIS?

NOT WITH CERTAINTY. I DID NOT SIT DOWN WITH A

PENCIL AND PAPER AND DATA TO TRY TO DEVELOP A DISTRICT

UNTIL IT BECAI4E AN ISSUE IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

a Now, couNSELoR, DO YOU KNOW THAT THE NORTH

CAROLINA LEGISLATURE HAS TO REDISTRICT AFTER EVERY

FEDERAL CENSUS?

YE S.

A P, O. Bor 2tt{$
u B.hagh, Norrh C.rcIu 276rt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DID YOU KNOW THE FEDERAL CENSUS \^/AS TAKING

PLACE IN 1980?

A YES.

A DID YOU KNOW THAT THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL

ASSEMBLY WAS GOING TO HAVE TO REDISTRICT AFTER THAT

CENSUS?

A ABSOLUTELY. I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

A WHEN DID THE NORTH CAROLINA LEGISLATURE BEGIN

TO CONSIDER THE QUESTION OF REDISTRICTING OF ITS

DISTRICTS?

A IN 1981--IN THE REGULAR SESSION IN 1981.

a AfrD You KNEW THAT?

A YES.

a AND yET you WAITED UNTIL THE SPRING OF 1982

TO APPROACH YOUR DELEGATION WITH A SUGGESTION FOR A

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN NASH, EDGECOMBE AND WILSON

COUNTIES?

A OKAY. MY CONCERN IN_--

a (tNtraPosING) wett, IS THAT RIGHT?

A I CANNOT ANSWER THAT IIYESII OR IINO.'I I DID NOT

APPROACH MY DELEGATION IN 1981 ABOUT THE HOUSE AND SENATE

RACES.

A COUNSELOR, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THE ISSUE

OF SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS NOT A

BURNING MIND--A BURNING ISSUE IN THE MIND OF LAWYER

F t. O. !d 2atGS
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XX

BUTTERFIELD FROM WILSON

A IT HAS BEEN

YEARS AND DID NOT HAVE

MR. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

QUESTIONS.

PRIOR TO THE SPRING OF 1982?

A BURNING CONCERN OF MINE FOR

ITS GENESIS IN 1982.

THAT IS ALL I HAVE.

I HAVE A COUPLE OF

a

CAROL I NA

DIVIDING

A

a

WOULD HAVE

USE,WHOLE

REDIRECT EXAMINATION L2:I5 P.

BY MS. WINNER:

IN 1981 WERE YOU AWARE THAT THE NORTH

CONSTITUTION HAD A PROVISION WHICH PROHIBITED

COUNTIES IN THE APPORTIONMENT OF THE LEGISLATIRE

YES. I VJAS AWARE OF THAT.

DID ANY OF YOUR POSSIBLE CONFIGURATIONS WHICH

MADE A MA.JORITY BLACK DISTRICT IN THAT AREA

COUNTIES?

WELL, I WAS AWARE THAT YOU COULD NOT DIVIDE

COUNTY LINES IN REDISTRICTING. AND SO THAT IS WHY WHEN

I THOUGHT OF DEVELOPING A DISTRICT, I HAD TO THINK IN THE

CONTEXT"OF A COUNTY. AND EDGECOMBE COUNTY, BEING THE

COUNTY WITHIN THE DISTRICT WITH THE HIGHEST BLACK POPULA.

TION, APPEARED TO ME TO BE THE NATURAL PLACE TO BEGIN--IN

EDGECOMBE COUNTY.

A DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY BECOME AWARE THAT THE

.JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD OB.JECTED TO THAT CONSTITUTIONAL

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor i,etas

u i.hrch. lro^n C.DL0. ,tCtr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PROVISION?

A I AM AWARE OF THAT. YES.

A DO YOU RECALL I''HEN YOU BECAME AWARE THAT THE

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OBJECTED TO THAT PROVISION?

A OH, I GUESS L I KE EVERYONE ELSE I BECAME AUJARE

OF IT THROUGH THE MEDIA.

A DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THAT WAS?

A IT WAS DURING THE SPECIAL SESSION OR *JUST

BEFORE THE SPECIAL SESSION IN 1982. SO I GUESS IT WOULD

HAVE BEEN THE FIRST PART OF 1982 IN WHICH JUSTICE SAID

THAT IT COULD NOT BE ENFORCED.

MS. WINNER: I DONI T HAVE ANY OTHER

QUEST I ONS .

EXAMINATION 12:16 P.M.

BY ..luDGE PH-ILLIPS:

A MR. BUTTERFIELD, HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN YOUR

EFFORTS DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS TO ENCOURAGE BLACK VOTER

REGISTRATION REFLECTED ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE WILLINGNESS

OF BLACKS DEPENDING UPON THEIR AGE?

A YES, SIR. I SEE A DIFFERENCE IN ATTITUDES

AMONG OLDER PEOPLE. AND THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN ATTI-

TUDE AMONG YOUNGER PEOPLE. THE ATTITUDES ARE DIFFEREI'IT.

OLDER PEOPLE DO NOT PARTICIPATE BECAUSE OF FEAR AND THE

FACT THAT MANY OF TH-EI4 ARE ILLITERATE AND DO NOT

F 2. O. lor 2tlel
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

UNDERSTAND THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

THE REASON YOUNGER PEOPLE DONIT PARTICIPATE

BECAUSE OF APATHY AND INDIFFERENCE ABOUT THE POLITICAL

PROCESS.

A HAVE YOUR OWN EFFORTS AND THOSE OF PEOPLE WIT

WHOM YOU HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED IN THE EFFORT PRODUCED

SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER NUMBERS OF OLD OR YOUNGER BLACK

VOTERS AND REGISTRATION, OR IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE?

A I DONIT THINK THERE IS A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENC

YOUR HONOR. I HAVE FOUND IN THE LAST THREE TO FOUR

YEARS THAT IT IS EASIER COMPARED TO 10 OR 15 YEARS AGO

TO PERSUADE AN UNREGISTERED PERSON TO REGISTER. I THINK

UNREGISTERED PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO RECOGI.IIZE THE RELA-

TIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND THEIR POCKETBOOK.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE EFFORTS ON THE PART OF

THE. STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS ARE HAVING THEIR EFFECT ON

THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF BLACK VOTERS IN TERMS OF INCREASING

THEIR WILLINGNESS AND REDUGING THEIR .APATHY'I,IITH RESPECT

TO THE POSSIBILITY---

A

a

A

(TMTERPoSIUE) YE5. I AM SORRY.

GO AHEAD.

I THINK IT IS HAVING SOME EFFECT. BUT I THINK

THE AREA IN WHICH IT IS MOST EFFECTIVE IS THE AREA OF

MAKING REGISTRATION AVAILABLE. BI,IT WITHOUT BLACK VOLUN-

TEERS WHO GO OUT AND- RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR REGISTR,qTION, I

F t. O. tox 2tt0l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DONIT BELIEVE THE EFFORT IN AND OF ITSELF BY THE STATE

BOARD IS A PANACEA FOR THE PROBLEM.

A DO YOU THINK THAT THE SIGNALS BEING HAD FROM

THE CENTRAL SOURCE ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE GENERAL CLIMATE

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL CLIT4ATE..AMONG BLACKS TO WHICH YOU HAV

ALLUDED ?

YES. THERE IS A SIGNAL THAT COMES OUT OF THE

CITIZEN AWARENESS PROGRAM AT THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

THAT REGISTRATION IS GOING TO BE MORE READILY AVAILABLE.

A DO YOU EXPECT THAT IF IT IS CONTINUED AT ITS

PRESENT PACE TO BEAR iI.ICNEASING FRUIT IN INCREASING THE

WILLINGNESS OF BLACKS TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO REGISTER AND

TO VOTE?

IF THE STATE LAW STAYS THE SAME ON THE

AUTHORITY OF THE REGISTRAR AND JUDGE TO REGISTER PEOPLE

INDISCRIMINATELY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY, THAT WILL HAVE A

LASTING EFFECT. ON THE SUBJECT OF SPECIAL REGISTRATION

COMMISS IONERS, THAT IS STI{L VIITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE

COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT

WHEN THE STATE PULLS OFF OF THIS CITIZEI{ AWARENESS PRO-

GRAM THAT THE FOCUS ON SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS

i1IILL DIMINISH.

A IS IT POSSIBLE FOR PERSONS SUCH AS YOU, WHO

HAVE DEVOTED A GREAT AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND WHO UNDOUBTEDLY

HAVE INFLUENCE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN WHICH YOU ARE

F P. O. Bor2ltcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DEVOTING YOUR GOOD EFFoRTS, TO POINT TO THIS SORT OF

DEVELOPMENT IN THE STATE AS A REASON--ADDITIONAL REASON-_

FOR PARTICIPATION?

YES. THAT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT CAN BE

SUGGESTED TO THE POPULATION AS A REASON TO GET INVOLVED.

WOULD IT BE A GOOD REASON IN YOUR MIND--OR A

GOOD TACTIC FOR THOSE SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO ARE INTERESTED

IN REGISTRATION TO ATTEMPT TO ENCOURAGE REGISTRATION?

YES. EVERY OPPORTUNITY I GET, YOUR HONOR,

TELL PEOPLE THAT REGISTRATION IS NOT AS DIFFICULT AS

l.lAS BEEN. THERE USED TO BE A TII'IE WE WOULD HAVE TO

PHYS ICALLY TAKE PEOPLE ONTO THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE

COURTHOUSE AND WAIT FOR ONE REGISTRAR TO GET TO THEM.

NOW WE HAVE NUMEROUS REGI STRARS THROUGHOUT THE

COMMUNITY AND THE COUNTY WHO CAN DO IT IN A VERY SHORT

SPAN OF TIME. AND Sg I SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY WHENEVER

I CAN TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO REGISTER TO VOTE. BUT THAT

IS ONLY A BEGINNING.

A BUT YOU DO HAVE A SENSE OF POSITIVE MOVEMENT

AS AGAINST SIMPLY A MAINTENANCE OF OLD PATTERNS UNCHANGED

AND WITHOUT ANY PREJUDICE?

A THERE IS SOME MOVEMENT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

YES. BUT THERE IS A LOT TO BE DONE. AND THERE ARE MORE

PROGRAMS THAT NEED TO BE PUT IN PLACE. AND THE MOST

IMPORTANT THING THA-T IS GOING TO GET FULL PARTICIPATION

I

IT

F P, O. Bor 2llas
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XX

o

oF BLACK PEOPLE, IN f4Y OPINION,

SEE OTHER BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED

IS GOING TO BE THE BEST EXAMPLE

I JUDGE PHI LLI PS :

MR. LEONARD:

I S FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO

TO PUBLIC OFFICE. THAT

THAT WE CAI..I POINT TO.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR.

I HAVE JUST A COUPLE MORE

QUEST I ONS.

R E C R O S S - E XAM I NAT I ON 72:22 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. BUTTERFIELD, WERE YOU IN THE COURTROOM

WHEN MR. sPEARMAN TESTi"U' YESTERDAY?

A I4OST OF HI S TESTIMONY; YES.

A YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE FAMILIAR WITH THE

LEGISLATION THAT HE TESTIFIED TO THAT THE LEGISLATURE

PASSED. LET ME JUST ASK YOUR OPINION ALONG THE LINE OF

THE.QUESTIONS THAT .JUDGE PHILLIPS WAS ASKING. DO YOU

BELIEVE THAT AUTHORIZATION TO PERMIT THE STATE ELECTION

BOARD TO NAME DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS LICENSE

EXAMINERS AS SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS WILL

ASSIST BLACKS IN THE WILSON-EDGECOMBE.NASH AREA IN

REGISTERING?

A SURE; YES.

A WOULD THE SAME BE TRUE FOR LEGISLATION TO

PERMIT VOTEP. REGISTRATION IN PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS WITH

THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN ACTING AS THE REGISTRAR?

PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF 2, O. Bq 2atct
Ll n b.eh. xoror crE&i. ?ctr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A

a

MEMBERS OF

OR HAD SOME

A

q

A

THAT WILL ASSIST WITH THE 1B-YEAR-OLDS, YES)

I'JOULDN I T THAT ALSO ASS I ST WI TH ALMOST ALL

THE BLACK COMMUNITY WHO ARE AT LEAST MOBILE

ABILITY TO GET TO THE HIGH SCHOOL?

I DO NOT THINK SO.

WHY-_BECAUSE OF THE HOURS THE SCHOOL IS OPEN?

WELL, THE HOURS AND THE FACT THAT ADULTS

SIMPLY DO NOT GO TO THE HIGH SCHOOLS FOR THE MOST PART

UNLESS THEY ARE ATTENDING SOME KIND OF TEACHER MEETINGS.

WHAT IS GOING TO GET THE MASSES OF BLACK UNREGISTERED

PEOPLE ON THE BOOKS IS GOING TO BE THE PRESENCE OF

SPEC IAL REG I STRAT i ON COMM I SS I ONERS WHO CAN GO I T.{TO THE

CoMMUNITIES, WHo CAN GO INTO THE CHURCHES, I,JHO CAN GO

INTO THE WORK PLACE AND REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE. THAT IS

THE ONLY WAY IT i5 GOING TO BE DONE.

A YOU ARE CERTAINLY AN EXPERT ON YOUR AREA. AND

I AM NOT. AND I DONIT WANT TO BE A BIT ARGUMEI..ITATIVE.

BUT IF THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN.AT THE HIGH SCHOOL COULD BE

ENCOURAGED TO STAY IN THE EVENING FOR A PTA MEETING OR

WHATEVER, ISNfT IT CORRECT THAT---

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : (INTERPOSING) MN.

LEONARD, IF I MAY, I THINK THAT THE REOPENING OF THE

EXAI4INATION OUGHT TO BE DIRECTED SIMPLY TO EXPLORING

THiNGS THAT YOU THINK I',IAY HAVE HAD SOME IMPINGEMENT UPON

THE CASE AS Y6g ARE ATTEMPTING TO BRING IT OUT THAT \^IER5

H P. O. lor 2tlas
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OPENED BY MY QUESTiONS. AND IT SEEMS TO I,lE YOU ARE

STRAYING CONSIDERABLY BEYOND THAT.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUE ST I ONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHIN

MS. WINNER, THAT YOU I,'OULD LIKE TO ASK BASED UPON THE

DOOR THAT I OPENED?

MS. WINNER: NO. BUT I HAVE ONE

QUESTION BASED UPON A DOOR THAT MR. LEONARD OPENED.

LIUDGE PHI LLIPS: ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD AND

ASK IT.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMII.IATION
L2:25 A.M.

BY MS. t,I I NNER :

A IN YOUR OBSERVATION ARE BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE

IN WILSON COUNTY EQUALLY LIKELY TO HAVE DRIVERIS

L I CENSES ?

A I DONIT KNOW. I -DON'T KNOW.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(wrrrurss EXCUSED. )

WELL, WE IJAVE ABOUT FIVE'MINUTES UNTIL THE

NOON BREAK. DO YOU \^IANT TO CALL YOUR NEXT h'ITNESS AND

GET STARTED?

MS . I,J I NNER : YOUR HONOR, I AM WILLING

TO DO THAT. FRANKLY,_ HE HAS CoME FROM oUT OF TOWN. AND

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFFTCE, RAlErGl't. 832-9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. aor 2llcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EVEN SAY HELLO TO HIM.

I WOULD PREFER TO WAIT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, wHY DoNtT WE BREAK

AND WE WILL COME BACK AT 2:OO oIcLoCK.

(THe PRocEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 12:25 P.M., T

RECONVENE AT 2:00 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.)

F t. O. lor 2lras
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FURTI.IER PROCEEDINGS 2:00 P.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL CoIJVENE oN MoNDAY

AT 2:00 OTCLOCK P.M.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,

COULD I RAI SE .JUST ONE OTHER PRELIMINARY MATTER? IT

TVOULD APPEAR THAT COUNSEL IS GOING TO FINISH SOMETII4E

TOMORROW. WE WILL, OF COURSE, HAVE A MOTION TO MAKE FOR

JUDGMENT. ALSO, THERE WAS THE QUESTION OF MY RESERVING

AN OPENING STATEMENT.

I HAVE NO GREAT DESIRE TO ARGUE THE MERITS OF

THE MOTION AT ANY GREAT LENGTH, NOR HAD I INTENDED TO

EVEN MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT. I THINK THE COURT IS

I./ELL AI^,ARE OF WHAT TIIE ISSUES ARE AND WHAT THS DEFENDANT

posITIoN IS FROI'1 CROSS-EXAMINATION, LT CETERA.

BUT I WOULD APPRECIATE KNOWING FROM THE COURT

HOPEFULLY AFTER THE SREAK TODAY IF IT WANTS TO HEAR ANY

COMMENTARY ON OUR I{OTION ON dUDGMENT. WE HAVE BRIEFEI)

PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE lSSUES IN OUR PRE-TRIAL BRIEF. I

CERTAINLY DONTT WANT TO BURDEN THE COURT WITH THAT

ARGUMENT IF THE COURT IS GOING TO SIMPLY RESERVE ITS

J UDGMENT OI.I THE I4OT I ON.

JUDGE PHILT-IPS: WE WILL TELL YOU AI=TER

THE RECESS WHETHER I,JE ARE DISPOSED TO DO ONE OR THE OTHER

MS. WINNER: THE PLAINTIFFS CALL FRED

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, R,ALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8d 2tl0!
LJ irbtgh, Nonh Ca@iln. eTCtt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BELFIELD.

(wnrn EU PoN,

FRED BELFIELD, JR.

I,/AS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

roltows: )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 2:02 P.I4.

BY MS. bIINNER:

A STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE.

A MY NAME IS FRED BELFIELD, JR.

A WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS?

A     

A WHAT COUNTY IS THAT IN?

A THAT IS IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY.

a MR. BELFIELD, ARE YOU ONE OF THE NAMED PLAT,N-

TIF.FS IN THIS CASE

A YES; I AM.

a TJHERE DO YOU WOBK?

A IN h'ORK IN NASH COUNTY AS AN AGRICULTURAL

WORKER.

a wHo Do You l^/oRK FoR?

A AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION SERVICE.

a HoI,I LoNG HAVE YOU LIVED IN ROCKY ;"lOUNT?

A 16 YEARS.

A WHERE DI? YOU LIVE BEFORE THAT?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I LIVED IN NASH COUNTY BEFORE I GOT MARRIED_

IN NASi-IVILLE, REALLY, TO BE SPECIFIC--IN NASHVILLE.

a How LoNG DID YOU LrVE THERE?

A I LIVED THERE FROM DECEMBER 16]. UNTIL !'UNE OF

r66.

a ARE yOU CURRENTLY A MEMBER OF ANY ORGANTZA*

TIONS?

A WELL, I AM A MEMBER OF THE NAACP, Y MENIS CLU

THOSE ARE THE TWO CIVIC GROUPS I AM A MEMBER OF.

A HAVE YOU HELD ANY POSITIONS IN THE NAACP?

A YES; I HAVE.

a '^|HAT POSITION IS THAT?

A WELL, I HAVE HELD THE POSITION OF PRESIDENT

FOR TEN YEARS.

A WHAT BRANCH IS THAT?

. A THAT IS THE ROCKY MOUNT BRANCH OF THE NAACP.

A WHAT YEARS WERE YOU PRESIDENT?

A I WAS PRESIDENT FROM '68 TO 176 AND THEN AGAI

FROM t78 TO rB0.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS?

A WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS--MY INVOLVEMENT HAS BEEN

FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STANDPOINT, BASICALLY: VOTER

REIGSTRATION, ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND I'JHAT THE

ISSUES ARE. AND I FELT THAT THEY COULD TAKE IT FROM

THERE

F P, O, Bor 2116l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876_4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY CAMPAIGNS FOR

PARTI CULAR PEOPLE ?

A NO. I DONI T GET INVOLVED IN THE INDIVIDUAL

CAMPAI GNS.

A WHY IS THAT?

A WELL, I AM PROHIBITED FROM DOING THAT, Ar.ty'dAy.

I HAD A HEART ATTACK.

A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF RESIDENTIAL SEGREGATION

IN THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT?

A WELL, STATE THAT QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE RESIDENTIAL INTEGRATION

OR SEGREGATION OF HOUSING IN ROCKY MOUNT?

A WELL, PRACTICALLY ALL THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE

EITHER PREDOMINANTLY BLACK OR PREDOMINANTLY WHITE. THERE

ARE A FEW BLACKS THAT LIVE IN PREDOMINANTLY WHITE

NEIGHBORHOODS--SAY, TIE UppER MIDDLE-CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS.

TH:I{E ARE A FEW WHO HAVE MOVED INTO THE AREA. ',ETTHER

THEY ARE DOCTORS OR SOME OF THE TOP MANAGEMENT OF SOME OF

THE NE"{ INDUSTRY THAT MOVE INTO THE AREA.

a WHAT pROpOilTrON OF THE BLACK POPULATION IN

ROCKY MOUNT LIVES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A PERCENT OF THE BLACK POPULATION RIGHT NOW_-I

WOULD SAY 95 PERCENT OR 98; TO PUT IT MORE BLUNTLY,

PROBABLY 98 PERCENT.

a HoW MANY _SCHOOL SYSTEMS ARE THERE IN EDGECOMBE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCR]BING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND NASH COUNTY?

A THERE ARE FOUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEI4S IN

EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTY.

a I{HAT SCHOOL SYSTEI'1S ARE THOSE?

A WELL, WE HAVE TI^,O C I TY SYSTEMS, TARBORO AND

ROCKY MOUNT; AND THEN THE TWO COUNTIES, EDGECOMBE AND

NASH.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION--STRIKE THAT.

ARE THERE ALSO SOME PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN THOSE TWO COUT.ITIE

A YES. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THEI.4.

A HOW MANY PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE THERE IN THE

TWO COUNTI ES?

A WELL, I THINK THERE IS ABOUT SIX. THERE MAY

BE MORE. BUT I AM AWARE OF ABOUT SIX.

a WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THOSE

PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

A THEY ARE WHITE.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE LOWER

GRADES IN THE ROCKY MOUNT PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

A WELL, TT IS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT IS IN THE

UPPER GRADES--.JUNIOR HIGH ON UP. ON THE LOWER LEVEL--.

"IUDGE BR I TT :

THE WITNESS:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN--'IHIGI-€R

wHEN I SAY rrH I GHER, rt I

AM TALKING A.BOUT.JUNIOR HIGH AND SENIOR HIGH. IN THE

LOI./ER GRADE S, I VIOU LD SAY THAT THE RAC I AL COMPOS I T I ON I S1o

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

APPROXIMATELY 75 PERCENT BLACK, 25 PERCENT WHITE.

BY MS. V/INNER:

a DoES THE ROCKY MOUNT SCHOOL BOARD HAVE A

POLICY ABOUT CLASSROOM ASSIGNMENTS BY RACE?

A YES. THEY ADOPTED ONE THIS YEAR.

A WHAT IS THAT POLICY?

A WELL, THEY ADOPTED A POLICY OF NO CLASSES

WOULD BE ABOVE 60 PERCENT BLACK. AND NO CLASSES WOULD

BE UNDER 40 PERCENT WHITE, I,IHICH WITH THAT TYPE OF POLICY

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME ALL-BLACK CLASSES WITH THE

TOTAL STUDENT ENROLLMENT.

AND IN THAT SITUATION, THE BLACKS OPPOSE THAT,

AS WE CONSIDER IT SEGREGATION BY DESIGN.

a DID THE SCHOOL BOARD VOTE ON THAT POLICY?

A YES; THEY DID.

. A WHAT WAS TIE VOTE ON THE POLICY?

A THE VOTE WAS FIVE-THREE. OF COURSE, THE

CHAIRMAN DIDN'T VOTE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A TIE. BUT THE

VOTE WAS FIVE-THREE ALONG RACIAL LINES. THE BLACKS

OPPOSED IT. AND THE WHITES WENT FOR IT.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL INTEGRA-

TION IN ROCKY MOUNT AND EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTIES?

A THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL INTEGRATION, I WOULD SAY,

IS VERY LOW IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT IT ON A PERCENTAGE

BAS I S.

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PFECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A ARE THERE ANY SOCIAL CLUBS IN THOSE AREAS?

A YES. THERE ARE SOCIAL CLUBS.

A ARE THEY INTEGRATED?

A IF YOU LOoK AT YOUR COUNTRY CLUBS, YOUR

COUNTRY CLUBS ARE NOT. IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT COUNTR

CLUBS, THEY ARE NOT INTEGRATED. IN FACT, ONE HAS A

POLICY THAT BLACKS CANNOT BECOME A MEMBER.

SOME OF YOUR OTHER CLUBS--WELL, ACTUALLY I

DON'T KNOW OF ANY SOCIAL CLUBS THAT MAY BE INTEGRATED.

BUT THERE ARE SOME CIVIC--BUSINESS AND CIVIC GROUPS THAT

ARE I:NTEGRATED, LIKE THE BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL

woMEN'S CLUB, BOOK CLUBS--ORGANIZAT IONS LIKE THAT.

A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF INTEGRATION OF THOSE

C IVI C CLUBS?

A WELL, I WOULD SAY IT IS BASICALLY TOKEN. WHEN

I SAY I'TOKEN, 'I MAYBE ONE OR THREE BLACKS MAY BE A MEMBER

OF THEM.

ARE THE CHURCHES OF EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUN-

TIES INTEGRATED?

A CHURCHES?

a YES, SIR?

A I DON'T KNOW OF BUT ONE. AND THAT IS THE

LUTHERAN CHURCH. AND THAT CHURCH HAS OI'JE BLACK FAMILY

THAT IS A MEMBER OF IT THAT MOVED FROM CHICAGO. THEY

WERE LUTHERANS. AND THEY MOVED INTO THE HALIFAX COUNTY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AREA AND BOUGHT A FARM. AND SO THEY ARE MEI4BERS OF

ONE OF THE LUTHERAN CHURCHES IN ROCKY MOUNT. NOW, IF

THERE ARE OTHERS, I DON' T KNOW ABOUT IT.

IS EMPLOYMENT INTEGRATED IN ROCKY MOUNT?

WELL, GENERALLY SPEAKING, I WOULD SAY YES.

BUT BLACKS ARE BASICALLY CONCENTRATED IN THE LOWER-PAYIN

JOBS. YOUR LARGER CORPORATIONS AND BIG INDUSTRY LIKE

HARDEE I S, CASE-CUMMINS DI ESEL PLAI.{TS AND L I KE THAT--YOU

HAVE ONE OR TWO BLACKS UP ON THE HIGHER LEVEL, MAYBE FRO

SUPERVISOR ON UP. BUT MOST OF THEM ARE CONCENTRATED IN

THE LOWER-PAYING .JOBS. BUT MOST OF YOUR BUSINESSES WILL

HAVE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO BLACKS IN THEM.

A

JUDGE BRITT:

CASE-CUMMINS BUS INESS?

THE WITNESS:

OUT THE FIRST ENGINES THIS

OF THERE.

.J UDGE BR I TT :

NOW, IF YOU KNoW?

HOW FAR ALONG IS THAT

THEY ARE

MONTH. THEY

NOW--THEY SENT

WERE SHIPPED OUT

HOW MANY DO THEY EMPLOY

THE WITNESS: WELL, THEY STARTED OFF

WITH--THE FIRST WORK CREW WAS 40. AND THEY PLAN TO

INCREASE IT AND GET Up TO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 800 AND 1.,100

AS THEY EXPAND. BUT THEY ARE STARTING SMALL NOW. IT IS

A BIG PLANT_-A $IOO MILLION INVESTMENT.

BY MS. WINNER:

F P. O.8or 2ttto
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME INVOLVED IN VOTER

REG I STRAT I ON ?

I STARTED WORKING IN VOTER REGISTRATION AND

VOTER EDUCATION BACK IN 1967.

WHERE WERE YOU LIVING THEN?

I WAS LIVING IN ROCKY MOUNT.

FOR CONVENIENCE, DO BLACK PEOPLE--IS ROCKY

MOUNT IN TWO COUNTIES?

A YES; IT IS. THE RAILROAD TRACK IS--I.IHEN YOU

CROSS THE RAILROAD TRACK GOING EAST, WHEN YOU CROSS THE

RAILROAD TRACK AT MAIN STREET YOU ARE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY

IF YOU ARE GOING WEST AND YOU CROSS THE RAILROAD TRACK,

YOU ARE IN NASH COUNTY.

WHERE DO BLACK PEOPLE LIVE IN ROCKY MOUNT?

BLACKS ARE BASICALLY CONCENTRATED ON THE EAST

SIDE, WHICH IS EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THAT IS HOW I ENDED UP

LIVING IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY RATHER THAN NASH. BACK':I4HEN I

FIRST GOT MARRIED WHEN I MOVED, THAT WAS THE ONLY PLACE

I COULD FIND AT THAT TIME TO GET A HOUSE WITHOUT A HASSLE

OR GOING THROUGH COURT PROCEEDINGS AND LIKE THAT.

SO THAT IS THE ROUTE I CHOSE AT THE TIME.

.JUST NEVER MOVED.

A NOW, WHERE I S THE COUNTY SEAT OF EDGECOMBE

COUNTY ?

A TARBORO.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

P. O. Eor 2'1G!
lJ idthtr, tonh c.elfl zrott

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HOW FAR AWAY FROM ROCKY MOUNT IS THAT?

APPROXIMATELY 16 MILES.

WHEN YOU I^IERE REGI STERING VOTERS IN ROCKY

MOUNT IN THE LATE SIXTIES AND EARLY SEVENTIES, WHAT WAS

THE PROCEDURE FOR REGISTERING VOTERS? WHERE COULD THEY

REG I STER ?

A OKAY. IN ROCKY MOUNT.-ROCKY MOUNT HAS AN

ELECTION OFFICE IN CITY HALL WHICH SERVES BOTH COUNTIES--

NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTY.-FOR THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT.

AND EACH BOARD OF ELECTIONS WILL SEND AN EMPLOYEE OVER

TO WORK OUT OF THAT OFFICE THREE DAYS OUT OF THE WEEK.

I BELIEVE IT IS WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND FRIDAY. BUT

ANYWAY, IT IS THREE DAYS THAT THAT OFFICE IS OPEN THAT

THEY COULD REGISTER.

THEcoUNTYSEAT-.THEYALSoHAVETHEELECTIoN

OFFICE. AND WHEN I/,'E .STARTED THE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE

IN ROCKY MOUNT BACK IN ,67, WE REGISTERED THEM AT THE

ELECTION OFFICE IN ROCKY MOUNT.

ANDATTHATTIMETHEPRECINCTREGISTRARS

WASNITEVENALLoWEDToHAVETHEBooKSoUTINTHEPRECINCT

EVERYONE HAD TO GO TO THE CITY HALL ANNEX AT THAT TIME TO

REGISTER.

A DID THAT POSE ANY PARTICULAR PROBLEMS?

AWELL,ATTHATTIMEITDID.TRANSPoRTATI0N

WAS A PROBLEM. SO -THIS IS WHY WE ORGANIZED TRANSPORTATI



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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,1 ArN OFF|CE, RAtEtcH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

UNDERSTAND THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

THE REASON YOUNGER PEOPLE DONIT PARTICIPATE

BECAUSE OF APATHY AND INDIFFERENCE ABOUT THE POLITICAL

PROCESS.

HAVE YOUR OWN EFFORTS AND THOSE OF PEOPLE WIT

WHOM YOU HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED IN THE EFFORT PRODUCED

SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER NUMBERS OF OLD OR YOUNGER BLACK

VOTERS AND REGISTRATION, OR ,IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE?

A I DONIT THINK THERE IS A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENC

YOUR HONOR. I HAVE FOUND IN THE LAST THREE TO FOUR

YEARS THAT IT IS EASIER COMPARED TO 10 OR 15 YEARS AGO

TO PERSUADE AN UNREGISTERED PERSON TO REGISTER. I THINK

UNREGISTERED PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO RECOGI',IIZE THE RELA-

TIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND THEIR POCKETBOOK.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE EFFORTS ON THE PART OF

THE STATE BOARD OF EL:CTIONS ARE HAVING THEIR EFFECT ON

THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF BLACK VOTERS IN TERMS OF INCREASING

THEIR, WI LLINGNESS AND REDUGING THEIR .APATHY 'I,'ITH RESPECT

TO THE POSSIBILITY---

(rNrERPosrrue)

GO AHEAD.

YES. I AM SORRY.

I THINK IT IS HAVING SOME EFFECT. BUT I THINK

THE AREA IN WHICH IT IS MOST EFFECTIVE IS THE AREA OF

MAKING REGI STRATION AVAILABLE. 3I,lT WITHOUT BLACK VOLUN-

TEERS WHO GO OUT AND_ RECRUIT PEOPLE FOR REGISTP.,qTION, I

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DONI T BELIEVE THE

BOARD IS A PANACEA

a Do You

THE CENTRAL SOURCE

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL

ALLUDED ?

EFFORT IN AND OF ITSELF BY THE STATE

FOR THE PROBLEM.

THINK THAT THE SIGNALS BEING HAD FROM

ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE GENERAL CLIMATE

CLII4ATE--AMONG BLACKS TO WHICH YOU HAVE

YES. THERE IS A SIGNAL THAT COMES OUT OF THE

CITIZEN AWARENESS PROGRAM AT THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS

THAT REGISTRATION IS GOING TO BE MORE READILY AVAILABLE.

DO YOU EXPECT THAT IF IT IS CONTINUED AT ITS

PRESENT PACE TO BEAR INCREASING FRUIT IN INCREASING THE

WILLINGNESS OF BLACKS TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO REGISTER AND

TO VOTE?

I F THE STATE LAW STAYS THE SAME ON THE

AUTHORITY OF THE REGISTRAR AND JUDGE TO REGISTER PEOPLE

INDISCRI'MINATELY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY, THAT WILL HAVE A

LASTING EFFECT. ON THE SUB\'ECT OF SPECIAL REGISTRATION

COMMISSIONERS, THAT IS STI.LL I,IITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE

COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT

WHEN THE STATE PULLS OFF OF THIS CITIZEN AWARENESS PRO-

GRAM THAT THE FOCUS ON SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS

WI LL DI MIN I SH.

A IS IT POSSIBLE FOR PERSONS SUCH AS YOU, WHO

HAVE DEVOTED A GREAT AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND WHO UNDOUBTEDLY

HAVE INFLUENCE IN TTIE BLACK COMMUNITY IN WHICH YOU ARE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,IAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DEVOTING YOUR GOOD EFFORTS, TO POINT TO THIS SORT OF

DEVELOPMENT IN THE STATE AS A REASON--ADDITIONAL REASON--

FOR PARTI CIPATION?

A YES. THAT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT CAN BE

SUGGESTED TO THE POPULATION AS A REASON TO GET INVOLVED.

a woulD IT BE A GOOD REASoN IN YOUR I4IND--OR A

GOOD TACTIC FOR THOSE SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO ARE TNTERESTED

IN REGISTRATION TO ATTEMPT TO ENCOURAGE REGISTRATION?

A YES. EVERY OPPORTUNITY I GET, YOUR HONOR, I

TELL PEOPLE THAT REGISTRATION IS NOT AS DIFFICULT AS IT

IAS BEEN. THERE USED TO BE A TII'1E WE WOULD HAVE TO

PHYSICALLY TAKE PEOPLE ONTO THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE

COURTHOUSE AND WAIT FOR ONE REGISTRAR TO GET TO THEM.

NOW WE HAVE NUMEROUS REGISTRARS THROUGHOUT THE

COMMUNITY AND THE COUNTY WHO CAN DO IT IN A VERY SHORT

SPAN OF TIME. AND Sq I SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY WHENEVER

I CAN TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO REGISTER TO VOTE. BUT THAT

IS ONLY A BEGINNING.

A BUT YOU DO HAVE A SENSE OF POSITIVE MOVEMENT

AS AGAINST SIMPLY A MAINTENANCE OF OLD PATTERNS UNCHANGED

AND WITHOUT ANY PREJUDICE?

A THERE IS SOME MOVEMENT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

YES. BUT THERE IS A LOT TO BE DONE. AND THERE ARE MORE

PROGRAMS THAT NEED TO BE PUT IN PLACE. AND THE MOST

IMPORTANT THING THAT IS GOING TO GET FULL PARTICIPATION

A P. O.8or 2ltaa
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oF BLACK pEOpLE, IN t4Y OPINiON, I S FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO

SEE OTHER BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED TO PUBLIC OFFICE. THAT

IS GOING TO BE THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT WE CAN POINT TO.

I JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE JUST A COUPLE MOR

QUEST I ONS .

RECROSS-EXAMINATION 12:.22 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. BUTTERFIELD, WERE YOU IN THE COURTROOM

WHEN MR. SPEARMAN TESTIFIED YESTERDAY?

A I'4OST OF HI S TESTIMONY; YES.

a You MAY OR MAY NOT BE FAMILIAR I^IITH THE

LEGiSLATION THAT HE TESTIFIED TO THAT THE LEGISLATURE

PASSED. LET ME \'UST ASK YOUR OPINION ALONG THE LINE OF

THE. QUESTIONS THAT .JUDGE PHI LLIPS WAS ASKING. DO YOU

BELIEVE THAT AUTHORIZATION TO PERMIT THE STATE ELECTION

BOARD TO NAME DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS LICENSE

EXAMINERS AS SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS WILL

ASSIST BLACKS IN THE WILSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH AREA IN

REGISTERING?

A SURE; YES.

A WOULD THE SAME BE TRUE FOR LEGISLATION TO

PERMIT VOTEP. REGISTRATION IN PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS WITH

THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN ACTING AS THE REGISTRAR?

PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFFTCE, RAt ETGH, 832.908s

719.3619 876.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF t. o. ld 2llil
lJ hrl..eh. xo.$ Crrotm ?ctr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THAT WILL ASSIST WITH THE IB-YEAR-OLDS. YES)

a I'/OULDN I T THAT ALSO ASS I ST WI TH ALMOST ALL

MEMBERS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY WHO ARE AT LEAST MOBILE

OR HAD SOME ABILITY TO GET TO THE HIGH SCHOOL?

A I DO NOT THINK SO.

a WHY--BECAUSE OF THE HOURS THE SCHOOL IS OPEN?

A WELL, THE HOURS AND THE FACT THAT ADULTS

SIMPLY DO NOT GO TO THE HIGH SCHOOLS FOR THE MOST PART

UNLESS THEY ARE ATTENDING SOME KIND OF TEACHER MEETINGS.

WHAT IS GOING TO GET THE MASSES OF BLACK UNREGISTERED

PEOPLE ON THE BOOKS IS GOING TO BE THE PRESENCE OF

SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS WHO CAN GO INTO THE

CoMMUNITIES, WHo CAN GO INTO THE CHURCHES, trHO CAN GO

INTO THE WORK PLACE AND REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE. THAT IS

THE ONLY WAY IT IS GOiNG TO BE DONE.

A YOU ARE CERTAINLY AN EXPERT ON YOUR AREA. AND

I AM NOT. AND I DONIT WANT TO BE A BIT ARGUMENTATIVE.

BUT I F THE SCHOOL Li BRARIAIII. AT THE HIGH SCHOOL COULD BE

ENCOURAGED TO STAY IN THE EVENING FOR A PTA MEETING OR

WHATEVER, ISN'T IT CORRECT THAT---

JUDGE PHI LLI PS : (INTERPOSING) MR.

LEONARD, IF I MAY, I THINK THAT THE REOPENING OF THE

EXAI"IINATION OUGHT TO BE DIRECTED SIMPLY TO EXPLORING

THi NGS THAT YOU THINK I"IAY HAVE HAD SOME IMPINGEMENT UPON

THE CASE AS YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO BRING IT OUT THAT WERs

F P. O, lor 2tlts
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OPENED BY MY QUESTIONS. AND IT SEEMS TO T.1E YOU ARE

STRAYING CONSIDERABLY BEYOND THAT.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUESTIONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHI

MS. WINNER, THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO ASK BASED UPON THE

DOOR THAT I OPENED?

MS. WINNER: NO. BUT I HAVE ONE

QUESTION BASED UPON A DOOR THAT MR. LEONARD OPENED.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD AND

ASK IT.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMII'IATION
L2:25 A.M.

BY MS. IdINNER:

q IN YOUR OBSERVATION ARE BLACK AND WHITE PEOPL

IN WILSON COUNTY EQUALLY LIKELY TO HAVE DRIVERIS

LICENSES?

A I DON'T KNOW. I.DONIT KNOW.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(wlrNrss EXcusED. )

WELL, WE HAVE ABOUT FIVE'MINUTES UNTIL THE

NOON BREAK. DO YOU I^IANT TO CALL YOUR NEXT h'ITNESS AND

GET STARTED?

MS . trJ I NNER : YOUR HONOR, I AM WILLING

TO DO THAT. FRANKLY,_ HE HAS COME FROM OUT OF TOWN. AND,o

F P. O. 8or 2lI('
LI Rd.lgh, i{oil Ct.ollm 27ail



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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EVEN SAY HELLO TO HIM.

I WOULD PREFER TO WAIT.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: WELL, wHY DoN I T wE BREAK

AND WE WILL COME BACK AT 2:OO OICLOCK.

(TnT PRoCEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 12:25 P.M., T

RECONVENE AT 2:00 p.M., THIS SAME DAy.)

n P. O. lq ttlao
IJ R.aleil xoru C.rc*r t7trr



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FURTI.tER PROCEEDINGS 2:00 P.

L,UDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL CO}IVENE ON MONDAY

AT 2:00 0r CLOCK p. M.

MR. LEoNARD: IF THE coURT PLEASE,

COULD I RAISE JUST ONE OTHER PRELIMINARY MATTER? IT

I.'OULD APPEAR THAT COUNSEL IS GOING TO FINISH SOMETI}4E

TOMORROW. WE WILL, OF COURSE, HAVE A MOTION TO MAKE FOR

JUDGMENT. ALSO, THERE WAS THE QUESTION OF MY RESERVING

AN OPENING STATEMENT.

I HAVE NO GREAT DESIRE TO ARGUE THE MERITS OF

THE MOTION AT ANY GREAT LENGTH, NOR HAD I INTENDED TO

EVEN MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT. I THINK THE COURT IS

I'/ELL AI^IARE OF WHAT TIIE ISSUES ARE AND WHAT TH= DEFENDANT

POSITION IS FROI'1 CROSS-EXAMINATION, ET CETERA.

BUT I WOULD APPRECIATE KNOWING FROM THE COURT

HOPEFULLY AFTER THE SREAK TODAY IF IT WANTS TO HEAR ANY

COMMENTARY ON OUR I4OTION ON \'UDGMENT. WE HAVE BRIEFET)

PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE ISSUES IN OUR PRE-TRIAL BRIEF. I

CERTAINLY DONIT WANT TO BURDEN THE COURT WITH THAT

ARGUMENT IF THE COURT IS GOING TO SIMPLY RESERVE ITS

JUDGMENT OI'.I THE I'4OTION.

JUDGE PHILI-IPS: WE WILL TELL YOU AI=TER

THE RECESS WHETHER V/E ARE DISPOSED TO DO ONE OR THE OTHER

MS. WINNER: THE PLAINTIFFS CALL FRED

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bd 2tlilt

u rll.rlrr, l'onh c.dtE enrt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCFIBTNG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BELFI ELD.

(wHEREUPoN,

FRED BELFIELD, JR.

I,JAS CALLED AS A W I TNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TEST I F I ED AS

FOLLOWS: )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 2:02 P.t'4.

BY MS. WINNER:

A STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE.

A MY NAME I S FRED BELFI ELD, .JR.

A WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS?

A   

A WHAT COUNTY IS THAT IN?

A THAT IS IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY.

A MR. BELFIELD, ARE YOU ONE OF THE NAMED PLAI.N-

TIFFS IN THIS CASE?

A YES; I AM.

a ITHERE DO YOU WOBK?

A IN I.JORK IN NASH COUNTY AS AN AGRICULTURAL

WORKER.

a wHo Do YOU I^/ORK FoR?

A AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION SERVICE.

a Hol/l LoNG HAVE YOU LIVED IN ROCKY ,"lOUNT?

A 16 YEARS.

A WHERE DI? YOU LIVE BEFORE THAT?

F P. O. lor 2ll0s
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA

A I LIVED IN NASH COUNTY BEFORE I GOT MARRIED-

IN NASHVILLE, REALLY, TO BE SPECIFIC-_IN NASHVILLE.

A HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE THERE?

A I L I VED THERE FROM DECEMBER I 61 UNT I L .JUNE OF

r66.

A ARE YOU CURRENTLY A MEMBER OF ANY ORGANIZA-

TIONS?

A WELL, I AM A MEMBER OF THE NAACP, Y MENIS CLU

THOSE ARE THE TWO CIVIC GROUPS I AM A MEMBER OF.

A HAVE YOU HELD ANY POSITIONS IN THE NA,\CP?

A YES; I HAVE.

a '/,|HAT POSITION IS THAT?

A WELL, I HAVE HELD THE POSITION OF PRESIDENT

FOR TEN YEARS.

A WHAT BRANCH IS THAT?

. A THAT IS THE ROCKY MOUNT BRANCH OF THE NAACP.

A WHAT YEARS WERE YOU PRESIDENT?

A I WAS PRESIDENT FROM '68 TO I76 AND THEN AGAIN

FROM t78 TO r80.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS

A WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS--MY INVOLVEMENT HAS BEEN

FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STANDPOINT, BASICALLY: VOTER

REIGSTRATION, ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO UNDSRSTAND I''HAT THE

ISSUES ARE. AND I FELT THAT THEY COULD TAKE IT FROM

THE RE

A t. O. Eq 2tlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY CAMPAIGNS FOR

PARTICULAR PEOPLE?

A NO. I DONI T GET INVOLVED IN THE INDIVIDUAL

CAMPAIGNS.

A WHY IS THAT?

A WELL, I AM PROHIBITED FROM DOING THAT, ANyr/Ay.

I HAD A HEART ATTACK.

A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF RESIDENTIAL SEGREGATION

IN THE CITY OF ROCKY I'IOUNT?

A WELL, STATE THAT QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE RESIDENTIAL INTEGRATION

OR SEGREGATION OF HOUSING IN ROCKY MOUNT?

A WELL, PRACTICALLY ALL THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE

EITHER PREDOMINANTLY BLACK OR PREDOMINANTLY WHITE. THERE

ARE A FEW BLACKS THAT LIVE IN PREDOMINANTLY WHITE

NEIGHBORHOODS--SAY, T.IE UpPER MIDDLE-CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS.

TH:RE ARE A FEW WHO HAVE MOVED INTO THE AREA. ',ETTHER

THEY ARE DOCTORS OR SOME OF THE TOP MANAGEMENT OF SOME OF

THE NEW INDUSTRY THAT MOVE INTO THE AREA.

a WHAT pROpOR.r I ON OF THE BLACK POPULAT I ON r N

ROCKY MOUNT LIVES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A PERCENT OF THE BLACK POPULATION RIGHT NOW-_I

WOULD SAY 95 PERCENT OR 98; To PUT IT MORE BLUNTLY,

PROBABLY 9B PERCENT.

A HOI.J MANY.SCHOOL SYSTEMS ARE THERE IN EDGECOMBE

F P. O.8d 2llas
lJ F.hllir Xodn Cryo{m 2rCrr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3;619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND NASH COUNTY?

A THERE ARE FOUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEI4S IN

EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTY.

A WHAT SCHOOL SYSTEMS ARE THOSE?

A WELL, WE HAVE TWO CITY SYSTEMS, TARBORO At'lD

ROCKY MOUNT; AND THEN THE TWO COUNTiES, EDGECOMBE AND

NASH.

a WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPoSITION--STRIKE THAT.

ARE THERE ALSO SOME PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN THOSE TWO COUI'ITIE

A YES. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THEM.

A HOW MANY PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE THERE IN THE

TWO COUNTI ES?

A WELL, I THINK THERE IS ABOUT SIX. THERE MAY

BE MORE. BUT I AM AWARE OF ABOUT SIX.

a WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THOSE

PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

A THEY ARE WHITE.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE LOWER

GRADES IN THE ROCKY MOUNT PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

A WELL, IT IS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT IS IN THE

UPPER GRADES--JUNIOR HIGH ON UP. ON THE LOWER LEVEL---

. 
JUDGE BRITT: WHAT DO YOU MEAN--'IHIGI-ER

THE WI TNESS : WHEN I SAY ''HI GHER, II I

AM TALKING ABOUT JUNIOR HIGH AND SENIOR HIGH. IN THE

LOI.'ER GRADES, I WOU-LD SAY THAT THE RACIAL COMPOSITION IS

F P. O. gor 2tl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, APIZONA

APPROXIMATELY 75 PERCENT BLACK, 25 PERCENT WHITE.

BY MS. l/JINNER:

a DoES THE P.OCKY MOUNT SCHOOL BOARD HAVE A

POLICY ABOUT CLASSROOM ASSIGNMENTS BY RACE?

A YES. THEY ADOPTED ONE THIS YEAR.

A WHAT IS THAT POLICY?

A WELL, THEY ADOPTED A POLICY OF NO CLASSES

WOULD BE ABOVE 60 PERCENT BLACK. AND NO CLASSES WOULD

BE UNDER 40 PERCENT WHITE, I'IHICH WITH THAT TYPE OF POLICY

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME ALL-BLACK CLASSES WITH THE

TOTAL STUDENT ENROLLMENT.

AND IN THAT SITUATION, THE BLACKS OPPOSE THAT,

AS WE CONSIDER IT SEGREGATION BY DESIGN.

a DID THE SCHOOL BOARD VOTE ON THAT POLICY?

A YES; THEY DID.

. a WHAT WAS TIE VoTE ON THE PoLICY?

A THE VOTE WAS FIVE-THREE. OF COURSE, THE

CHAIRMAN DIDNIT VOTE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A TIE. BUT THE

VOTE WAS FIVE-THREE ALONG RACIAL LINES. THE BLACKS

OPPOSED IT. AND THE WHITES WENT FOR IT.

A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL INTEGRA-

TION IN ROCKY MOUNT AND EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTIES?

A THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL INTEGRATION, I WOULD SAY,

IS VERY LOW IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT IT ON A PERCENTAGE

BASIS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A ARE THERE ANY SOCIAL CLUBS IN THOSE AREAS?

A YES. THERE ARE SOCIAL CLUBS.

A ARE THEY INTEGRATED?

A IF YOU LOOK AT YOUR COUNTRY CLUBS, YOUR

COUNTRY CLUBS ARE NOT. IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT COUNTRY

CLUBS, THEY ARE NOT INTEGRATED. IN FACT, ONE HAS A

POLICY THAT BLACKS CANNOT BECOME A MEMBER.

SOME OF YOUR OTHER CLUBS--WELL, ACTUALLY I

DON'T KNOW OF ANY SOCIAL CLUBS THAT MAY BE INTEGRATED.

BUT THERE ARE SOME CIVIC--BUSINESS AND CIVIC GROUPS THAT

A.RE I|NTEGRATED, LIKE THE BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL

WOMEN'S CLUB, BOOK CLUBS--ORGANIZAT IONS LIKE THAT.

A I^JHAT IS THE LEVEL OF INTEGRATION OF THOSE

C IVI C CLUBS?

A WELL, I WOULD SAY IT IS BASICALLY

I SAY ''TOKEN,I' MAYBE ONE OR THREE BLACKS MAY

OF THEM.

A ARE THE CHURCHES OF EDGECOMBE AND

TIES INTEGRATED?

TOKEN. WHE

BE A MEMBER

NASH COUN-

CHURCHE S ?

a YES, SIR?

A I DON'T KNOW OF BUT ONE. AND THAT IS THE

LUTHERAN CHURCH. AND THAT CHURCH HAS OI'IE BLACK FAMILY

THAT IS A MEMBER OF IT THAT MOVED FROM CHICAGO' THEY

WERE LUTHERANS. AID THEY MOVED INTO THE HALIFAX COUNTY

F P. O. Aor 1tIG!
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PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AREA AND BOUGHT A FARM. AND SO THEY ARE MEI4BERS OF

ONE OF THE LUTHERAN CHURCHES IN ROCKY MOUNT. NOW, IF

THERE ARE OTHERS, I DONIT KNOW ABOUT IT.

IS EMPLOYMENT INTEGRATED IN ROCKY MOUNT?

WELL, GENERALLY SPEAKING, I WOULD SAY YES.

BUT BLACKS ARE BASICALLY CONCENTRATED IN THE LOWER-PAYIN

JOBS. YOUR LARGER CORPORATIONS AND BIG INDUSTRY LIKE

HARDEEIS, CASE-CUMMINS DIESEL PLAI.{TS AND LIKE THAT.-YOU

HAVE ONE OR TWO BLACKS UP ON THE HIGHER LEVEL, MAYBE FR

SUPERVISOR ON UP. BUT MOST OF THEM ARE CONCENTRATED IN

THE LOWER-PAYING .JOBS. BUT MOST OF YOUR BUSINESSES WILL

HAVE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO BLACKS IN THEM.

JUDGE BRITT:

CASE-CUMMINS BUS INESS?

THE VtrITNESS:

OUT THE FIRST ENGINES THIS

OF THERE.

HOW FAR ALONG IS THAT

THEY ARE

MONTH. THEY

NOW_-THEY SENT

WERE SHIPPED OUT

.JUDGE BRI TT:

NOW, IF YOU KNOW?

THE WITNESS: WELL, THEY STARTED OFF

WITH--THE FIRST WORK CREW WAS 40. AND THEY PLAN TO

INCREASE IT AND GET UP TO ANYWHERE BETWEEN 8OO AND 1,100

AS THEY EXPAND. BUT THEY ARE STARTING SMALL NOW. IT IS

A BIG PLANT--A $IOO MILLION INVESTMENT.

BY MS . I,/ I NNER :

HOW MANY DO THEY EMPLOY

o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZfiA

a WHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME INVOLVED IN VOTER

REG I STRAT I ON ?

I STARTED WORKING IN VOTER REGISTRATION AND

VOTER EDUCATION BACK IN 1967.

WHERE WERE YOU LIVING THEN?

I WAS LIVING IN ROCKY MOUNT.

FOR CONVENIENCE, DO BLACK PEOPLE--IS ROCKY

MOUNT IN TWO COUNTIES?

A YES; IT IS. THE RAILROAD TRACK IS.-T.IHEN YOU

CROSS THE RAILROAD TRACK GOING EAST, WHEN YOU CROSS THE

RAILROAD TRACK AT MAIN STREET YOU ARE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY

IF YOU ARE GOING WEST AND YOU CROSS THE RAILROAD TRACK,

YOU ARE I N NASH COUNTY.

WHERE DO BLACK PEOPLE LIVE IN ROCKY MOUNT?

BLACKS ARE BASICALLY CONCENTRATED ON THE EAST

SIDE, WHICH IS EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THAT IS HOW I ENDED UP

LIVING IN EDGECOMBE COUNTV RATHER THAN NASH. BACK I{HEN I

FIRST GOT MARRIED WHEN I MOVED, THAT WAS THE ONLY PLACE

I COULD FIND AT THAT TIME TO GET A HOUSE WITHOUT A HASSLE

OR GOING THROUGH COURT PROCEEDINGS AND LIKE THAT.

SO THAT IS THE ROUTE I CHOSE AT THE TIME.

.J UST NEVER MOVED.

a Now, ttHERE I S THE COUNTY SEAT OF EDGECoMBE

COUNTY ?

TARBORO.

A 2, O. lo( ,tlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HOW FAR AWAY FROM ROCKY MOUNT IS THAT?

APPROXIMATELY 16 MILES.

WHEN YOU I^IERE REGI STERING VOTERS IN ROCKY

MOUNT IN THE LATE SIXTIES AND EARLY SEVENTIES, WHAT WAS

THE PROCEDURE FOR REGISTERING VOTERS? I^IHERE COULD THEY

REG I STER ?

A OKAY. IN ROCKY MOUNT--ROCKY MOUNT HAS AN

ELECTION OFFICE IN CITY HALL WHICH SERVES BOTH COUNTIES--

NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTY-.FOR THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT.

AND EACH BOARD OF ELECTIONS WILL SEND AN EMPLOYEE OVER

TO WORK OUT OF THAT OFFICE THREE DAYS OUT OF THE WEEK.

I BELIEVE IT IS WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND FRIDAY. BUT

ANYWAY, IT IS THREE DAYS THAT THAT OFFICE IS OPEN THAT

THEY COULD REGISTER.

THEcoUNTYSEAT-.THEYALSoHAVETHEELECTIoN

OFFICE. AND WHEN I']E.STARTED THE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE

IN ROCKY MOUNT BACK IN ,67, WE REGISTERED THEM AT THE

ELECTION OFFICE IN ROCKY MOUNT.

AND AT THAT TlME THE PRECINCT REGISTRARS

WASNIT EVEN ALLOWED TO HAVE THE BOOKS OUT IN THE PRECINCT

EVERYONE HAD TO GO TO THE CITY HALL ANNEX AT THAT TIME T

REGI STER.

A DID THAT POSE ANY PARTICULAR PROBLEMS?

AWELL,ATTHATTIMEITDID.TRANSPoRTATIoN

WAS A PROBLEM. SO_IHIS IS WHY WE ORGANIZED TRANSPORTATI

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FOR THEM, BECAUSE THE FARTHEST DISTANCE FROM THE CITY

HALL ANNEX WAS APPROXIMATELY TWO AND A HALF I4ILES.

A AT SOMETIME AFTER THAT, DID THE'PLACES THAT

YOU COULD REGISTER VOTERS INCREASE? DID THEY EVENTUALLY-

' A (turrRposlNc) wrLU, yES. THEY BEGAN TO

ALLOW THE REGISTRARS OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT--

NOW, THIS IS IN YOUR COUNTY PRECINCTS--TO REGISTER IN

fHrtn pREC rNcrs.

A AND WHERE COULD THEY REGISTER PEOPLE?

A I^IELL, THEY DIDN' T REGISTER THEM AT THE VOTING

PLACE. IF.THE REGISTRAR WAS A PERSON THAT OPERATED A

sToRE OR A BUSINESS OR SOMETHING, you COULD GO TO HIS

BUSINESS AND REGISTER. IF NOT, YOU HAD TO GO TO HIS

HOUSE.

A CAN THE PRECINCT REGISTRARS NOW REGISTER

OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOUSES OR OUTSIDE OF THEIR PRECINCTS?

A YES; THEY CAN.

a WHEN DID THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY BOARD OF

ELECTIONS FIRST ALLOW THAT?

A I BELIEVE IT WAS IN '72 THAT THEY BEGAN TO

ALLOW THEM TO REGISTER. BUT FLOATING REGISTRARS THAT

COULD GO ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTY--WHEN I SAY '72, THEY

COULD REGISTER THEM ANYWHERE IN THEIR PRECINCT. BUT

FLOATING REGISTRARS WERE ALLOWED TO SOME EXTENT--THEY

STARTED IN I7B.

F P. O. 6q ttGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WHAT ARE THE CURRENT BARRIERS TO GETTING

BLACK PEOPLE TO REGISTER IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY AND IN ROCKY

MOUNT ?

A

BE FEAR.

a

WELL, TRANSPORTATION. ANOTHER BARRIER WOULD

FEAR OF WHAT?

A WELL, FEAR OF THE PROCESS. OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE

WHO HAVE NEVER REGISTERED, BASED ON CONVERSATIONS WITH

SOME OF THEM AND ESPECIALLY THE OLDER PEOPLE-.I WOULD SAY

PEOPLE ABOVE 5O WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND AND WHO CAN REMEMBER

BACK IN THE FORTIES AND FIFTIES HOW DIFFICULT IT I,IAS TO

REGISTER AND VOTE_-STILL AREN'T SURE THAT WHEN THEY GO

DOWN TO REGI STER, EVEN THOUGH YOU TELL THEM THAT YOU

DONIT HAVE TO \.IORRY ABOUT READING THE CONSTITUTION OR A

PORTION OF THE CONSTITUTION OR THE LITERACY TEST--THEY

ARE NOT SURE THAT YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH; THAT I MAY

HAVE TO DO MORE THAN JUST SIGN THE VOTER REGISTRATION

CARD AFTER I HAVE BEEN ASKED THE PROPER INFORMATION.

ANOTHER BARRI ER I S WHEN YOU DO[..II T GET FULL

COOPERATION OUT OF THE REGISTRARS.

A WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

A WELL, REGISTRARS CAN BE OUT OF PLACE. FOR

EXAMPLE, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO REGISTER PEOPLE WHEN YOU

DONIT HAVE A SPECIFIC, DESIGNATED DAY, YOU I4AY OR MAY NO

FIND THE}4. AND THAT-COULD BE A BAR.RIER.

- 
2. O, 8or 2.t(t

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFIG, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND ANOTHER ONE IS--WELL, I BELIEVE I SATD

IT. BUT I WILL SAY IT AGAIN--LACK OF COOPERATION.

a LACK OF COoPERATION FROM WHOM?

A THE REGISTRAR.

a trHAT IS IT THAT THEY DO THAT IS NOT COOPERA-

TIVE?

A NOT MAKING THEMSELVES AVAILABLE; oR--wELL,

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE THAT YoU GET SoMETIME: t'I AM oUT oF

CARDS. I HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE EXECUTIVE OF THE BOARD

OF ELECTIONS SENDS ME SOME MORE CARDS.''

A IS THERE ANYPLACE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY OTHER

THAN THE CtTY HALL--ANY PUBLIC PLACE IN EDGECOI4BE COUNTY

OTHER THAN THE CITY HALL AND THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS--

THAT YOU CAN REGULARLY REGISTER?

A PUBLIC PLACES?

A YES, SIR?

A NOT THAT I KNOW OF. WE DO HAVE FLOATING

REGISTRARS THAT THEY ALLOI^' TO--I AM NOT SURE OF THAT

TOTAL NUMBER. BUT I KNOW IN MY PRECINCT, WHICH IS

PROBABLY THE LARGEST ONE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY, WE DO HAVE

TWO FLOATING REGISTRARS ALLOWED TO FLOAT ANYWHERE IN THAT

PRECINCT WHEP.EVER PEOPLE ARE CONCENTRATED.

IF THERE IS AN ACTIVITY GOING ON, THEY CAN GO

TO THIS AND REGISTER PEOPLE. BUT COUNTY WIDESPREAD--I

AM NOT SURE THAT THEY-DO THAT. IN FACT, I WOULD BE

H P, O. Bor 2trGs
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

INCLIN!:D ]'O BELIEVE THAT THEY DON' T ALLOW IT, BECAUSE

COMPLAINTS WERE FILED IN 1982 WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

IN CONNECTION WITH LACK OF COOPERATION.

a Do you KNow oF pEopLE wHo HAVE REGISTERED TO

VOTE BUT WHO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE?

A OH, YES. WE RAN INTO THAT IN 1982.

A WHAT HAPPENED?

A AS A RESULT OF THE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE,

PEOPLE WENT TO THE POLLS AND VOTED. AND I KNOW THIS FOR

A FACT, BECAUSE WHEN I WENT TO VOTE MYSELF PEOPLE WERE

STANDING IN LINE. AND THEY COULDNIT FIND THEIR CARD.

AND THEY SAID THEY WERE NOT REGISTERED. AND SO THERE-

FORE, YOU CANNOT VOTE. EITHER YOUR CARD GOT LOST OR IT

WAS SENT TO THE WRONG PRECINCT.

AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE WERE SENT TO OTHER

PRECINCTS. THEY WENT TO ANOTHER PRECINCT. AND THEY

STILL FOUND THAT THE CARDS WERE NOT THERE. SO SOME CARDS

GOT DISPLACED. IT KINDS OF I,IAKE ME FEEL LIKE MAYBE IT

WAS DELIBERATELY DONE.

A WERE YOU PRESENT IN EDGECOMBE AND NASH

COUNTIES DURING THE RECENT MICHAUX-VALENTINE CONGRESSION-

AL RACE?

A YOU SAY WAS I PRESENT?

A WERE YOU THERE DUR I NG THAT T I I4E PER I OD ?

A YES. I HAVE BEEN IN NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNT

F P. O. Bor 2E163
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FOR 22 YEARS.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH HOW THE MEDIA DEALT WIT

THAT ELECTION?

A WELL, EVERY TIME I PICKED UP THE PAPER AND

READ ANYTHING COI4ING FROM THE NEWS }4EDIA, IT ALWAYS

EMPHASIZED MICHAUX AS THE BLACK CANDIDATE WHO IS SEEKING

TO BECOME THE FIRST BLACK ELECTED CONGRESS}4AN FROM NORTH

CAROLINA SINCE RECONSTRUCTION.

A WAS THAT LIMITED TO TIIE NEWSPAPERS?

A WELL, ALL NEWS MEDIA--RADIO AI\JD TV.

A HOW DOES THE MEDIA IN THOSE TWO COUNTIES TREAT

WHITE CANDIDATES?

A WELL, THEY LJUST LIST THEM AS A CANDIDATE.

THEY DONIT EMPHASIZE RACE.

A DID YOU SEE ANY OF TIM VALENTINEIS CAMPAIGN

LITERATURE DURING THAT. CAMPAIGN?

A WELL, ONE DAY I }JAS LEAVING THE BANK. AND ONE

OF HIS I,IORKERS SAID TO ME--HE SAID, "LET ME SHOI,I YOU

SOMETHINGII; AND SHOI',ED ME A LETTER THAT.-I CAN REMEMBER

ONE THING THAT I SAI.I ON IT WAS IT HAD A REFERENCE TO

BUSING. PEOPLE WILL BE BUSED TO THE POLLS IN LARGE

NUMBERS.

|.4R. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I

DONIT KNOW WHETHER COUNSEL IS LEADING UP TO AN EXHIBIT.

BUT IF THERE IS AN EXHIBIT WHICH SHE INTENDS TO OFFER OR

F P. O. lq AtG!
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PRECTSION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IS IN THE RECORD, THE EXHIBIT IS THE BEST EVIDENCE OF

WHAT THE CAMPAIGN MATERIAL SAYS. AND I OBJECT TO THE

ANSWER AND MOVE THAT IT BE STRICKEN ON THE GROUNDS THAT

IT IS NOT THE BEST EVIDENCE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, MS. wINNER, I THINK

TECHNICALLY COUNSEL IS ON FIRM GROUND. DO YOU HAVE ANY

wAY TO---

MR. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) VES, SIR.

I DO NOT INTEND TO ASK ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS ON THTS LIN

BUT I THINK THE IMPORT OF THE TESTIMONY IS WHAT MR. BEL-

FIELD--WHAT STRUCK MR. BELFIELD ABOUT THAT LETTER, I

THINK, SUPPORTS DR. LUEBKE'S TESTIMONY ABOUT WHAT THAT

LETTER MEANT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS IT NOT MERELY CUMULA-

TIVE? I DONIT RECALL THAT ANYONE HAS RAISED ANY QUESTI

ABOUT'THE PUBLICATION OF THAT MATERIAL.

MS. WINNER: I THINK IT ONLY ADDS TO

THE PROBATIVE FORCE OF DR. LUEBKEIS INTERPRETATION OF

THE LETTER.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE WE WILL SUSTAIN

THAT OBJECTION.

VERY WELL.MS. WINNER:

BY MS. WINNER:

a ARE YOU FAMILIAR--DrD YOU GO VoTE IN THE

MICHAUX-VALENTI NE PRIMARY?

F.r ?. O. lq tttct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES; I DID.

A WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WENT TO THE POLL THAT

DAY I N THE S ECOND PR I }4ARY ?

A WELL, WHEN I WENT IN TO VOTE I SAW TWO WHITE

PEOPLE STANDING AROUND INSIDE THE POLLING PLACE.

q WHO WERE THE WHITE PEOPLE?

A ONE OF THEM I AM NOT SURE. BUT ONE OF THEM

I DID RECOGNIZE VERY WELL AS BEING THE SHERIFF OF THE

COUNTY.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF YOUR

PREC I NCT ?

A MY PRECINCT IS ALL BLACK.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURRENT HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES DISTRICT IN WHICH YOU LIVE?

A YES; I AM.

. A DO YOU THINK THAT BLACK PEOPIE HAVE AN EQUAL

OPPORTUNITY AS WHITE PEOPLE TO ELECT REPRESENTATIVES FRO

THAT DI STRICT?

A NO; I DO NOT.

a wHY NOT?

A WELL, S IMPLE MATHEMATI CS--YOU ARE .JUST OUT-

NUMBERED. THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG BARRIERS. AND I JUST

DONIT THINK THAT YOU CAN DO IT.

A DO THE CURRENT I'IHITE REPRESENTATIVES CAMPAIGN

IN T}.IE 3LACK COI4MUNI-TY?

n P. O. lor ttls
Ll R.l.l!n, *onh Cr.orh. 27Crr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A VERY LITTLE. THEY DO I',IAKE CONTACT WITH WHo

THEY CONSIDER KEY PEOPLE. I HAVENIT SEEN THEM DOING THA

MUCH CAMPAIGNING IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

a

PEOPLE TO

DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR BLACK

HAVE BLACK REPRESENTATIVES?

I TH INK SO.

WHY ?

FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. NUMBER ONE, I THINK

IT IS A GOOD ROLE MODEL FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE GROWING UP.

IT GIVES THEM SOME INCENTIVE TO WANT TO PARTICIPATE AND

GET INVOLVED IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, STATE GOVERI'.IMENT AND

NATIONAL GOVERNMENT.

ANOTHER REASON IS I THINK THAT THE BLACK VIEWS

NEED TO BE HEARD ON ALL LEVELS ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES IN-

VOLVED. FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN THINK OF THE ERA ISSUE.

BLACKS WERE NEVER CONSULTED, TO MY KNOWLEDGE--THOSE THAT

I HAVE ASKED; NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN CONSULTED BY ANY

POLITICIAN ;AS TO WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS ON THAT. THAT IS

AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE. WE WERE TJUST BYPASSED.

SO ALL THE ISSUES THAT COME BEFORE ANY BRANCH

OF GOVERNMENT, OUR VIEWS SHOULD BE HEARD. AND I THINK

BLACKS CAN--BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS__CAN BEST REPRESENT

THAT VIEW.

A DO YOU TIJINK THAT WHITE ELECTED OFFICIALS CAN

REPRESENT THE BLACK-COMMUNITY?

F ?, O. Bor 2alGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I T I S POSS I BLE FOR SOME THAT ,\RE WI LL I NG TO

CLOSELY ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY. BUT

MOST POLITICIANS TEND TO SHY AWAY FROM THAT BECAUSE THEY

DONIT WANT TO BE BRANDED AS A BLACK LOVER, WHICH ANOTHER

CANDIDATE WITH A MORE CONSERVATIVE VIEW CAN USE THAT TO

DEFEAT HIM.

MS. WINNER: I DONI T HAVE ANY OTHER

QUESTIONS.

CROSS EXAMiNATION 2:29 P. M.

Y MR. LEONARD:

A HOh.l MANY FLOATING REGISTRARS ARE THERE IN

EDGECOMBE COUNTY, MR. BELFIELDi IF YOU KNOW?

A I THINK I SAID I WAS NOT FAMILIAR I{ITH ALL OF

EDGECOMBE COUNTY AS FAR A5 THE FLOATING REGISTRARS. BUT

I KNOW HOW MANY THERE IS IN MY PRECINCT.

THOSE TWO FLOATING REGISTRARS IN YOUR PRECINC

CAN REGISTER VOTERS ANYPLACE IN THE CITY?

A NO, NO--IN OUR PRECINCT. . AND-OUR PRECINCT

COMPRISES A LARGE PORTION OF THE EAST SIDE OF ROCKY MOUNT

A ARE THERE REGISTRARS AVAILABLE TO

EDGECOMBE COUNTY PART OF ROCKY MOUNT THAT CAN

TO REGISTER VOTERS?

ANYPLACE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY?

YES?

YOU IN THE

GO ANYPLAC

- 
P. O. Bd ?tlas

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I AM NOT AWARE OF THEM.

A DID I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY WHEN YOU SAID THAT

THE INABILITY OF SOME BLACKS WHO WERE IN FACT REGISTERED

TO VOTE BUT WHOSE CARDS COULDN'T BE FOUND AND THEREFORE

THEY COULDNIT VOTE WAS DELIBERATE?

A I SAID IT GIVES ME THE IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS

DEL I BERATE.

A BUT IT IS AN IMPRESSION ONLY?

A YOU SAY II I MPRES S I ON ONLY'I ?

A IS THAT SIMPLY YOUR IMPRESSION?

A YES; IT IS.

A THAT IT WAS DELIBERATE?

A YES.

A YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF THE FACT THAT IT WAS

DEL I BERATE ?

, A WELL, THAT 15 ONE THAT IS DIFFICULT TO PUT

YOUR HANDS ON. YOU CANIT COME RIGHT.OUT AND .JUST'SAY,

''THAT WAS DELIBERATE,I' NOT UNLESS YOU KNEW--THAT IS A

VERY DIFFICULT ONE TO PUT YOUR HANDS ON THAT IT WAS

DELIBERATE. BUT TT APPEARED THAT WAY.

a How MANY pEopLE DID yOU OBSERVE IIHO HAD THAT

DI FFICULTY IN THE 1982 ELECTION?

A WELL, IN MY PRECINCT SOMEWHERE AROUND 24.

AND I HAVE HEAqD-_WE HAD REPORTS FROM OTHER PRECINCTS,

TOO.25

t-t 2. O. &r .'!ta3
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PREC!SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a DID YOU KNOW ALL THOSE 24 PEoPLE?

A NO. I DIDNIT KNOW THEM ALL.

a Do you KNow WHETHER THEY HAD MOVED FROM ONE

PRECINCT WITHIN THE CITY TO ANOTHER DURING THE PERIOD

BETWEEN THE 198O AND 182 ELECTION?

A WE CHECKED THAT OUT. THEY HAD NOT MOVED.

A IT IS YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THERE WERE 24 PEOPLE

IN THE 1982 ELECTION WHO YOU PERSONALLY KNOW WERE REGIS-

TERED IN YOUR PRECINCT WHO COULD NOT VOTE IN THAT PRE-

CINCT IN 1982?

A NOW, STATE THAT AGAIN.

A IT IS YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THERE WERE 24 PEOPL

THAT YOU KNOI{ OF WHO ATTEMPTED TO VOTE IN THE 1982

ELECTION WHO YOU KNEW WERE REGISTERED AND WERE NOT ALL

TO VOTE IN THAT PRECINCT--IN YOUR PRECINCT?

. A I BELIEVE I.F YOU GO BACK AND HEAR THE TESTI-

MONY, I SAID IT I^JAS APPROXIMATELY 24. I DIDNI T SAY IT

WAS DEFINITELY 24,

a ALL RIGHT--APPROXIMATELY 24. rS THAT STATE-

MENT CORRECT?

A YES. I SAID APPROXIMATELY 24.

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TIME DURING WHICH

C.ITIZEI.IS CAN REGI STER TO VOTE IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A THE TIME?

A THA IS, THAT THERE ARE SOME LIMITATIONS FOR

F P. O.8or 2!tcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A PERIOD PRIOR TO THE ELECTION?

A OH, YES--AS FAR AS THE POLLS--I MEAN, THE

REGISTRATION BOOKS CLOSING 2I DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

I AM FAMILIAR WITH THAT.

A AND YOU ARE SATISFIED THAT THAT WASNIT THE

REASON WHY THESE PEOPLE COULDNIT VOTE?

A. WELL, WHEN THE BOOKS ARE CLOSED, THE BOOKS ARE

CLOSED. WHEN THE BOOKS CLOSED, THE REGISTRATION DRIVE

CLOSED.

A WHAT PRECINCT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN ROCKY

MOUNT?

A THE PRECINCT THAT I HAD REFERENCE TO WHEN I

TALKED ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHOSE CARDS WERE MISPLACED?

A YES, S IR?

A WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRECINCT I2_4.

a t2-4?

A RIGHT.

A AND YOU SAID, I THINK, THAT THERE WAS--YOU HAD

HEARD THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER PRECINCT OR PRECINCTS WHERE

THE SAME THING HAD HAPPENED?

A YEAH. THERE WERE SOME OTHERS THERE IN THE

C ITY.

a wHo DiD YOU HEAR THAT FROM?

A FROM VOTERS WHO CALLED ME ABOUT IT. SOME

VOTERS CALLED M5 ABOUT IT-:THAT THEY WERENIT ALLOWED TO

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PRECISION BEPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36.t9 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REGISTER--I MEAN, WERENIT ALLOWED TO VOTE BECAUSE THEY

COULDNII T FIND A CARD FOR THEM.

a

A

a

A

a

THE SAME PROBLEM THAT YOU HAD IN PRECINCT 12

YES, S IR.

WHAT PRECINCT NUMBERS WERE THOSE?

PREC INCT 1.2_- I BELIEVE IT WAS 12-2 AND I2_3.

YOU CHARACTERIZED THE PUPIL ASSIGNMENT PLAN

IN THE ROCKY MOUNT SCHOOL SYSTEM AS A RACIAL ISSUE?

A ..IT 
WAS A RACIAL ISSUE__NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

AND TO CLARIFY THAT IT WAS A RACIAL ISSUE, THE VOTE WAS

ALONG RACIAL LINES. AND ONE OF THE BLACK BOARD MEMBERS

FILED A COMPLAINT WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND WAS

IMMEDIATELY THROWN OFF THE BOARD BY THE CITY COUNCIL WHEN

HE CAME UP FOR--THEY FOUND THEM ANOTHER BLACK TO PUT IN

HIS PLACE. AND IT I^JAS BECAUSE OF HIS FILING THE COMPLAI

WiTH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

a Do you RECALL--WERE yOU PRESENT AT ANy OF THE

DISCUSSIONS OF THE SCHOOL BOARD WHEN THAT ISSUE WAS

BEFORE THE SCHOOL BOARD?

A YES. I WAS THERE WHEN IT FIRST

A DID YOU PERCEIVE THAT ANY OF THE

CAME UP.

OF THE SCHOOL BOARD OR PEOPLE FROM THE WHITE

WERE CONCERNED THAT THE SCHOOLS MIGHT BECOME

ROCKY MOUNT UNLESS THERE WAS SOME ATTEMPT TO

SCHOOL POPULATION?

WHITE MEMBERS

COMMUN I TY

ALL BLACK IN

BALANCE THE

F P. O. Bor i,at(t
u R.hloh, Nodn C.roil{ 2r0tt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WELL, THAT IS I^IHAT THEY SAY.

FRONT ISSUE.

THAT WAS THE

A BUT AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED, IT WAS A

CLEAR INDICATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACKS?

A I DIDNI T SAY THAT. I SAID IT WAS A RACiAL

ISSUE. I DIDNIT SAY IT WAS RACIAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST

BLACKS.

IT VJAS A RACIAL ISSUE BECAUSE THE BLACK MEMBER

OPPOSED IT AND THE WHITE MEMBERS FAVORED IT?

YES. THE BLACK MEMBERS OPPOSED IT BECAUSE

THEY FELT LIKE_-AND THE BLACK COMMUNITY, BECAUSE THEY

WERE REFLECTING_-THE BLACK MEMBERS ON THAT BOARD WERE

REFLECTING THE VIEWS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY. AND WE WERE

OPPOSED TO IT BECAUSE THAT IS SEGREGATION BY DESIGN.

YOU ARE SAYING THAT WE ARE GOING TO PASS A

LAW. TO SEGREGATE PART OF THE STUDENTS IN THE SCHOOL

SYSTEM. AND WE WERE OPPOSED TO IT.

a Do you KNow oF ANY BLACK PERSON rN ROCKY MOUNT

OR IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY WHO WANTS TO REGISTER TO VOTE BUT

WHO I S UNABLE TO DO SO?

A WHO tdANTS TO AND UNABLE TO DO SO? l^rELL, I

HAVENIT HAD ANYONE TO COME UP AND SAY THAT THEY WERE

DENIED THIS. BUT THEY MAY WANT TO AND MAY NOT BE ABLE TO

GET TO WHERE THEY CAI.I REGISTER BECAUSE OF BEING ILL OR

BECAUSE OF A HANDICAP OR BECAUSE OF LACK OF TRANSPORTATI

F P, O. lor 2tl0it
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY THAT IF SUCH

A PERSON WHO IS ILL OR HANDICAPPED WAS CALLED TO YOUR

ATTENTION THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO GET A REGISTRAR TO

THAT PERSONIS HOME TO REGISTER THEM TO VOTE?

A IS THERE NO WAY? THERE IS A WAY OF GETTII\IG

THEM THERE AS LONG AS -THEY WILL COOPERATE AND DO IT. YE

I CANIT SAY THAT ALL OF THEM WILL COOPERATE AND GO TO AN

INDIVIDUALIS HOUSE AND GET THEM REGISTERED.

a Do you KNow oF ANy REASON WHy A BLACK PERSON

CANIT VOTE IN ANY ELECTION IN THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT OR

EDGECOMBE COUNTY?

A THAT CANIT VOTE? WELL, YOU CANIT VOTE IF THEY

DONIT HAVE A REGISTRATION CARD FOR YOU AND YOU HAVENIT

DECLARED YOUR AFFILIATION WITH ONE OF THE PARTIES,

ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE DEALING WITH A PARTISAN ELECTION.

. A WELL, THAT WAS A VERY. POORLY PHRASED QUESTION.

LET ME TRY TO RESTATE IT. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REGISTERED

VOTER IN ROCKY MOUNT OR EDGECOMBE COUNTY WHO IS BLACK

WHO IS UNABLE TO CAST HIS OP. HER BALLOT IN ANY ELECTION

IN THAT CITY OR COUNTY?

I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION THIS WAY: I HAVE

KNOWN OF A SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE WERE ON THE BOOKS AND

WERE REGISTERED TO VOTE AND HAD BEEN VOTING AND HAPPEI'IED

TO GO FCR AN ELECTION TO VOTE AND COME TO FIND OUT THEIR

CARD IS N9T rN THE BOoK--THAT PRECINCT BOOK. AND THEY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COULD NOT VOTE. AND THEY HAD NOT MOVED.

A OTHER THAN THE EXAMPLES THAT YOU GAVE EARLIER,

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY OTHER EXAMPLES?

A RIGHT OFFHAND, I CAN' T THINK OF ANY.

A I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YOU NEVER RAN FOR

PUBLIC OFFICE?

A NO; I NEVER HAVE. I HAVEN'T BEEN INTERESTED.

I LIKE TO DEAL WITH POLITICS FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STAND-

POINT OF GETTING PEOPLE INVOLVED.

MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL I HAVE.

EXAMINATION 2:40 P.M.

BY JUDGE DUPREE:

A I WANT TO ASK MR. BELFIELD IF IN HIS LINE OF

WORK HE DOES NOT HAVE TO WORK WITH 4_H CLUBS AND HOME

DEMONSTRATION CLUBS?

A OH, YES.

A YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF THEM IN YOUR AREA; DO YOU

NOT ?

A YES; WE DO.

A THEY ARE VOLUNTARY ORGANTZATIONS, I BELIEVE?

A YEAH. THEY ARE ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS.

a YOUNGSTERS WHO I^IANT TO JOIN DO S0 ON A

VOLUNTARY BASI S?

A OH, YES.

F P. O, aor 2ttdt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IN YOUR AREA I SEEM TO RECALL THAT THOSE

CLUBS ARE PRETTY WELL SEGREGATED AS LATE AS YEAR BEFORE

LAST; IS THAT RIGHT?

A MOST OF THEM ARE.

A MOST OF THEM ARE STILL EITHER ALL WHITE OR ALL

B LACK ?

A RIGHT.

A YOU HAVE A FEW THAT ARE INTEGRATED?

A A FEW.

A AND THAT IS THE SAME WITH THE HOME DEMONSTRA-

TION CLUBS AND THE 4-H CLUBS?

A YES; BASICALLY THE SAME. MOST OF YOUR SPECIAL

INTEREST ACTIVITIES THAT ARE CONDUCTED MORE OR LESS IN

PUBLIC PLACES ARE MUCH MORE INTEGRATED THAT THOSE THAT---

a (rNrrnposING) wrrL, youR ExTENSToN SERVICE

REQUIRES I^JHEN THEY COM.E TOGETHER FOR A COUNTY MEETING

AND SO FORTH THAT THEIR ACTIVITIES BE INTEGRATED?

A RIGHT.

A THAT IS SOMETHING OVER WHICH YOUR EXTENSION

SERVICE HAS SOME CONTROL. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH AN

ORGANIZATION KNOI{N AS THE FRIENDS OF 1890?

A YES, SIR.

A WHAT IS THAT?

A THAT IS .JUST A GROUP OF US WHO GRADUATED FROM

1890 TNSTTTUTTONS WHq GET TOGETHER T0---

A P. O. Bor 2a!al3
u e.hon. Xonh C.rolor aTott



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

a (lrurrnposING) you ARE A MEMBER? you srloNti

TO THIS ORGANIZAT ION?

A YES--A GROUP OF US. WE DON'T PAY ANY DUES OR

NOTHING. WE JUST GET TOGETHER AS A GROUP.

A THAT IS A VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATION?

A VOLUNTARY; RIGHT.

A WHAT IS ITS RACIAL MAKEUP?

A IT IS BASICALLY BLACK.

A DO YOU HAVE ANY WHITE MEMBERS?

A NO, SIR.

A I SEE. BUT WHENEVER IN EASTERN NORTH

CAROLINA THE PEOPLE HAVE A CHOICE ABOUT THESE MATTERS,

THEY USUALLY ARE STILI- LTNED'.UP ALONG"RACIAI- LINES;

ARENIT THEY_-IN CLUB MEMBERSHIPS AND THINGS?

A MOSTLY. WE ORGANIZED A NEW 4-H CLUB IN NASH

COUNTY THIS YEAR THAT IS INTEGRATED OUT THERE IN THE

COMMUNITY. BUT IT I3 A SMALL--IT IS A SLOW PROCESS.

A IT IS VERY GRADUAL; ISNI T IT--THE PROCESS OF

INTEGRATING ALL OF THESE ACTIVITIES?

A VERY SLOW; YEAH.

JUDGE DUPREE: ALL RIGHT, SIR. THANK

YOU.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MR. BELFIELD.

(WI TNESS EXCUSED. )

MS. WINNER: YOUR HoNOR, I HAVE--AND

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MAY MR. BELFIELD LEAVE THE COURTROOM?

MR. LEONARD:

JUDGE PHI LLI PS:

MS. WINNER:

NO OBJECTION.

HE MAY LEAVE.

I HAVE A QUESTION FROM

ALL RIGHT. THE PLAINTIFF

THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM FROM WHAT WE HAVE BEEN HAVING. WE

ARE GOING A BIT FASTER THAN I THOUGHT. AND WE MAY, IN

FACT, GET THROUGH MR. MOODY AND--IN ORDER FOR ME TO KNOW

WHETHER TO TRY TO GET MR. BALLANCE HERE FROM WARRENTON,

I NEED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE GOING TO LET MR.

ARRINGTON TESTI FY.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: WE ARE GOING TO HEAR MR.

ARR I NGTON .

MS. WINNER:

CALL JOE MOODY.

JUDGE DUPREE:

YOU, HAVE ACCOMMODATED. YOUR

HIM CALL A WITNESS OUT OF

MS. WINNER:

.JUDGE DUPREE:

IT. BUT LETIS SAY IF YOU

THAT, TOO.

WE MIGHT ALSO

OPPOSITION THERE BY

ORDER; HAVENIT YOU?

.- YES, SIR.

WELL, I AM NOT

ASK FOR IT, VJE WI LL

DO THIS:

LETT I NG

RULING ON

CONS I DER

MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, IF

YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE DEFENSE, WE HAVE NO OB.JECTION

IF SHE HAS A WITNESS PROBLEM OF CALLING A WITNESS OUT OF

ORDER.

F P. O. Bd rlldl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.JUDGE DUPREE: WELL, THE REASON I GOT

INTO THE MATTER ABOUT MR. BALLANCE HERE IS THAT I HAD A

CALL FROM SOME SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE. HE IS A LAWYER AND

HAD THE NEXT CASE UP. IN FACT, THEY VIERE WAITING FOR

HIM. THEY DIDNIT KNOW WHERE HE WAS. THEY THOUGHT HE

WAS UP HERE. BUT I THINK WE CAN GET THEM ALL HEARD

SOONER OR LATER.

MS. WINNER:

(wne n EU PoN,

THANK YOU.

JOE P. MOODY

WAS CALLED AS A WIT}IESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOI^IS : )

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 2:45 P.M.

BY MS. GUINIER:

. a wouLD You STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD,

PLEASE?

A MY NAME IS JOE P.. MOODY.

A ARE YOU THE JOE P. MOODY I,'HO IS A PLAINTIFF I

THIS LAWSUIT?

A YES; I AM.

A WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS, MR. MOODY?

A       

A AND ROANOKE RAPIDS IS IN WHAT COUNTY?

A HAL I FAX C_OUNTY .o
F ?. O.8or i|'lcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PI-()ENIX, ARIZONA

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

A WELL, MY HOME IS ORIGINALLY IN NORTHAMPTON

COUNTY. I LIVED THERE FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS. AND I HAVE

LIVED IN HALIFAX COUNTY EVER SINCE.

A SO YOU WERE BORN AND RAISED IN NORTHAMPTON

COUNTY ?

A YES; I WAS

a How ARE YOU EMPLOYED, MR. MOODY?

A SELF-EMPLOYED.

a WHAT DO YOU DO?

A AUTOMOBILE MECHANIC.

A WERE YOU PREVIOUSLY EMPLOYED ELSEWHERE?

A ALBEMARLE PAPER COMPANY IN ROANOKE RAPIDS.

A HOW LONG DID YOU WORK AT ALBEMARLE PAPER

COMPANY ?

. A FROM SEPTEMBER 1952 TO THE LAST OF 1970--18

YEARS.

a wHY DrD YOU LEAVE IN 1970?

A THEY FIRED ME AT ALBEMARLE PAPER COMPANY.

A THEY FIRED YOU?

A YES; THEY DID.

A WHY DID THEY FIRE YOU?

A I BROUGHT A LAWSUIT--A DISCRIMINATING LAWSUIT

AGAINST ALBEMARLE PAPER COMPANY IN AUGUST OF I66--DIS.

CRIMINATION WITH BATUROOM FACILITIES AND EATING FACILITI

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND PROMOTION AND SENIORITY RECORD AND EVERYTHING.

A AS A RESULT OF THE LAVJSUIT THAT YOU FI LED,

WERE ANY OF THE CONDITIONS THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED AT

ALBEMARLE PAPER COMPANY CHANGED?

A YES; THEY DID.

A WHAT CHANGES WERE MADE?

A WELL, WE WAS ABLE TO GET A BLACK FOREMAN AND

CHANGE THE BATHROOM AND EATING FACILITIES AND THE WATER

FOUNTAIN AND THAT KIND OF THING__ORDERED BY THE COURT TO

MAKE A CHANGE.

A AFTER YOU WERE FIRED AT ALBEMARLE PAPER

COMPANY, DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY SEEK EMPLOYMENT AT ANOTHER

COMPANY IN HALIFAX?

A YES; I DID.

A WHAT COMPANY WAS THAT?

. A J. P. STEVENS AND CONSTRUCTION WORK AROUND THE

AREA AND SEVERAL PLACES. I TRIED TO GET EMPLOYMENT. BU

BY MY ROLE IN CIVIL RIGHTS,.I WAS NOT ABLE TO GET A JOB.

SO THEN I WENT TO WORK FOR MYSELF.

A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL

PROCESS IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

A YES; I HAVE.

A WHEN DID YOU FIRST GET INVOLVED?

A WELL, EVER SINCE I WAS ABLE. I STARTED--I

REGISTERED TO VOTE BACK IN AROUND PROBABLY 1965. AND

F P. O.8ot ll.tct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICI, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

EVER SINCE THAT TIME, I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN POLITICS

ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND CIVIL RIGHTS.

a cAN you READ? DO yOU KNOW HOUJ TO READ?

A NO; I CANNOT.

a VJHEN yOU WENT TO REG ISTER I N 196 5, WHAT

HAPPENED ?

A YOU HAVE TO FI LL OUT

FORM IDENTIFYING WHICH SLOT THE

WOULD GO IN--WHATEVER SLOT DOES

HAD DIFFICULTY TRYING TO LOCATE

NOT ABLE TO READ AND WRITE.

A LITTLE FORM--A LITTLE

ROANOKE RAPIDS TOWNSHIP

YOUR NAME GO IN. AND I

THAT SLOT BECAUSE I WAS

AND I STAYED IN THERE PRACTICALLY ALL DAY

TRYING TO DETERMINE WHICH SLOT THAT IT GOES IN. BUT I

WAS DETERMINED TO REGISTER SO I WOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE.

AND AFTER STAYING THERE PRACTICALLY ALL DAY, I LEARNED

I^JHICH SLOT IT WENT IN. SO I WAS ABLE TO DO IT. |AND THEN

I COULD VOTE AFTER THAT

A HAVE YOU SINCE VOTING YOURSELF BEEN INVOLVED

IN ATTEMPTING TO GET OTHER BLACT PEOPLE REGISTERED TO

VOTE ?

A YES; I HAVE.

A HOW HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS?

A WELL, THE NAACP HAS ESTABLISHED REGISTRATIONS

ABOUT TWO OR THREE TIMES A YEAR.'

a WHAT ORGANIZATION IS THAT?

!.i P. O. !q 2ttqt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, R.ALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NAACP. AND I SERVE ON THAT BOARD. AND I

HELP THE PRESIDENT TO GO AROUI{D AND GET PEOPLE TO

REGISTER AND TAUGHT THEM HOW TO VOTE--TAUGHT THEM TO

REGISTER SO THEY CAN VOTE, BECAUSE THE VOTE IS A POWER

STRUCTURE. AND I DO A LoT OF THAT WORK, yOU KNOW,

CONSTANTLY.

DO YOU HOLD ANY POSITIONS IN ANY OTHER

ORGANTZAT IONS IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

YES; I DO.

WHAT POSITIONS ARE THOSE?

I SERVE ON THE LEGAL SERVICE BOARD, AHOSKIE

BOARD. AND I SERVE ON THE STATE Y BOARD IN RALEIGH. AND

I SERVE ON THE NAACP BOARD IN HALIFAX COUNTY.

HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY POLITICAL

CAMPAIGNS IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

YES; I HAVE.

WHAT CAMPAIGNS ARE THOSE?

I WAS INVOLVED IN THE MICKY MICHAUX CAMPAIGN.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I CAMPAIGNED FOR HIM--ON BEHALF OF

MICKY MICHAUX. I WAS INVOLVED IN GEORGE YOUNG--T. G.

YOUNG--IN HALIFAX COUNTY, A BLACK CANDIDATE. HE RAN

FOR OFFICE IN 19BO FOR COUNTY COMMISSIONER IN HALIFAX

COUNTY.

AND I WAS INVOLVED I'N GRANVILLE..CARTERIS CAM-

PAIGN RUNNING FOR TH€ CITY COUNCIL SEAT IN ROANOKE RAPID

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
. PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHICH WAS BACK IN 1980. AND I WAS ALSO INVOLVED IN

J. D. PERNELLIS CAMPAIGN, WHO IS A BLACK CANDIDATE WHICH

RAN FOR OFFICE BACK IN L976.

A WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SOME OF THESE

REGISTRATION DRIVES, HAVE YOU OBSERVED OR ARE YOU AV/ARE

OF ANY PROBLEMS THAT OTHER BLACK PEOPLE HAVE HAD WHO

HAVE TRIED TO REGISTER?

A YES; I HAVE.

A WHAT PROBLEMS ARE THOSE?

A WELL, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IS WE DONIT

HAVE THE TRANSPORTATION TO GO TO THE POLLS. AND WHEN

THEY GET TO THE POLLS, THE PEOPLE IN THAT POSITION DON'T

HAVE THE CARD--THE REGISTER CARD I,IHERE THEY ALREADY

DONE REGISTERED IN PLACE WHERE THEY CAI.J VOTE. AND SO

SOMETIME THE PEOPLE ARENIT ABLE TO VOTE.

, AND THE OT.HER PROBLEM IS THAT ESPECIALLY

OLDER PEOPLE--IT TURNS THEM OFF BECAUSE THEY NOT ABLE TO

VOTE BECAUSE THE CARD IS NOT IN PLACE AT ANOTHER PRECINCT

AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. SO THEY LOSE INTEREST. AND

I HAVE TO TAKE THEM BACK HOME BECAUSE THEY SAY, IIWELL,

I AINIT GOING TO ANY MORE PRECINCTS IF THEY CANIT FIND

THE CARD HERE AND ALL. AND WE REGISTERED HERE.II

AND ALSO MY SON.-HE REGISTERED. AND THEY

COULDNIT FIND HIS NAME ON THE BOOKS. AND I GOT INVOLVED

AND CALLED THE CHAIRMAN IN HALIFAX AND TOLD HIM MY SON

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAD REGISTERED AND HAD REGISTERED IN MY PRESENCE.

AND THEY WOULDNIT LET MY SON NOT VOTE BECAUSE HE COULDNT

FIND HIS CARD. AND HE TOLD ME AT THAT TIME THAT HADN'T

REGISTERED AND SAID THE GENTLEMAN WHAT TURNED HIS NAME

IN AND WAS SUPPOSED TO REGISTER HIM DIDN'T TURN THE NAME

IN.

AND I CALLED HIM. AND HE SAID HE DID TURN T

NAME IN. SO SHE TOLD ME AT THAT TIME TO CALL--TOLD ME

TO TELL THE LADY AT THE OFFICE WHERE YOU REGISTER TO

VOTE AT--TO TELL THEM TO GO AHEAD ON AND LET HIM VOTE

AND pul A CHEcK MARK BESIDE HIS NAME. So THAT IS THE WAY

HE GOT TO VOTE.

a NOI,I, YOU HAVE .JUST DESCRI BED SOME PROBLEMS

THAT PEOPLE HAVE HAD WHO ARE, IN FACT, REGISTERED BUT

CANIT VOTE. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE

HAVE WHO WANT TO GET REGISTERED?

A YEAH. I RECEIVED A LETTER A COUPLE OF DAYS

AGO FROM FRANK ADAMS TELLIN6 OF ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT

HAPPENED IN HOLLISTER WHERE THEY WERE STILL USING THIS

KIND OF TEST THEY USED TO USE--SOMETHING ABOUT READING

THE CONSTITUTiON. AND HE ASKED ME TO LOOK INTO IT. BUT

I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK INTO IT AT THIS STAGE.

BUT IT IS MY INTENTION TO LOOK INTO THAT MATTER AND SEE

WHAT HAPPENS FROM THERE.

AND YOU WERE ASKED TO INVESTIGATE THE USE OF

- 
P. O. aor 2ll.li

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE TEST THAT IS BEING USED IN HALIFAX COUNTY NOW?

A YES; I WAS.

A ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE A FEAR OF

REGISTERING TO VOTE?

YES. WHEN THE PEOPLE GO TO VOTE AND THEY

HAVE A PROBLEM AFTER THEY ARE REGISTERED AND THEY ARE

NOT ABLE TO VOTE BECAUSE THEIR NAME IS NOT KEPT IN THE

SLOT AND CHANGED TO A DIFFERENT PRECINCT, IT MAKES THEM

DIFFICULT. THEY LOSE FAITH IN TRYING TO VOTE.

THE OTHER THING IS THAT WHEN A BLACK CANDIDATE

IS RUNNING FOR OFFICE THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO

VOTE FOR HIM.

A BUT ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANY CONCE

ABOUT ACTUALLY REGISTERING IN THE FIRST PLACE? ARE THER

PROBLEMS \^JITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE JOBS OR WORK AS TENANT

FARMERS ?

YES, BECAUSE THEY ARE---

JUDGE PHI LLIPS: . (rnreRposrNG) we RRr

VERY LENIENT ABOUT LEADING CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. AND

WE ARE BEING VERY LENIENT HERE.. BUT'THE SAME REASONS"'

THAT MAKE US LENIENT ABOUT,LEADING SUGGEST THERE ARE

DANGERS IN CARRYING IT TOO FAR.

IF YOU WILL ATTEMPT TO CURB YOURSELF IN .JUST

A'LITTLE BIT II.I THE FORM OF YOUR QUESTIONS?

MS. GUINIER: I CERTAINLY WILL TRY,

F 2. O. 8or 2!tlC
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

YOUR HONOR. I AM JUST NOT SURE THE WITNESS IS UNDER-

STANDING MY QUESTIONS.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

THAT LIES THERE CARRIES WITH IT

SUGGESTIVENESS. AND IF YOU WILL

I SAY THE SAME DANGER

ANOTHER DANGER ABOUT

BE CONSCIOUS OF THAT?

I WILL CERTAINLY DO THAT.MS. GUINIER:

BY MS. GUINIER:

DID YOU UNDERSTAND MY LAST QUESTION IN TERMS

OF PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE REGISTERING?

WOULD YOU MIND REPEATING THAT AGAIN, PLEASE?

HAVE YOU ENCOUNTERED ANY PROBLEMS OR ARE YOU

AWARE OF ANY PROBLEMS THAT BLACK PEOPLE IN HALIF,AX COUNTY

HAVE THAT MIGHT PREVENT THEM OR MAKE THEM CONCERNED ABOUT

P.EGISTERING?

A

A

a

A

YES; I HAVE.

WHAT PROBLEMS ARE THOSE?

I{ELL, WHEN A BLACK CANDIDATE RUNS FOR OFFICE_-

ESPECIALLY THE COUNTY COMMISSION OR CITY COUNCIL--AND NOT

BEING ELECTED THE WAY THE SYSTEM OF LAW IS TODAY, IT

MAKES THEI.4 LOSE INTEREST--YOU Kt{OWr, IWHAT IS THE I.IEED FO

ME TO VOTE?II THAT IS THE KIND OF INFORMATION I GET BACK

FROM PEOPLE THAT I TALK WITH, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOING

TO WIN ANyWAy, yOU KNOW. SO THAT MEANS THAT YOU CANiT

ELECT EVER WHO YOU ARE TRYING TO VOTE FOR.

HAVE YOU CONDUCTED ANY REGISTRATION DRIVES

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OR ATTEMPTED TO REGISTEP. ANY PEOPLE WHO WORK AS TENAI.,IT

FARME R S ?

A YES; I HAVE.

A HAVE YOU HAD ANY PROBLEMS REGISTERING THOSE

PEOPLE ?

A SOME PEOPLE LIVE BACK ON THE FARM AND BEEN

FARI.4I NG ALL THE I R L I FE--NOT THE I R FARM, BUT THEY WORK

FOR SOME WHITE PEOPLE. AND THEY ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT

GETTING OFF AND TRYING TO REGISTER BECAUSE THEY ARE

SCARED THAT THE MAN MIGHT GET MAD WITH THEM OR MIGHT

MAKE THEM MOVE OR WHATEVER--SHE OR HE.

A DO YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR ROLE ON THE NAACP

BOARD IN HALI FAX COUNTY?

A YES; I DO.

A WHAT ROLE IS THAT?

. A MY ROLE iS TO AROUND AND INVESTIGATI: DISCRIMI-

NATION IN PUBLIC HOUSING; AND ALSO THAT THE PRESIDENT OF

THE NAACP GETS COMPLAINTS FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE HAVING

PROBLEMS WITH PUBLIC HOUSING AND OTHER INDUSTRIES LIKE

J. P. STEVENS AND PET RUBBLE AND AMOIL AND BURGER KING.

AND WE DO A LOT OF INVESTIGATION IN THAT FIELD.

A DO YOU ALSO DO ANY INVESTIGATION IN ANY OTHER

AREAS OF SERVICES IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

A YES; I DO.

A WHAT I NVES-T I GAT I ONS ARE THOSE ?

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC.

A P. O. Bor i'llas
lJ ntblln, raonh C.rollr 27ctt

AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I DO INVESTIGATIONS ON CURBS AND GUTTERS AI.ID

FIRE HAZARDS, STREET LIGHTS. AND I DONE AN IIJVESTIGATION

IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY ON PAVING STREETS AND THAT KIND OF

THING. AND I DONE ONE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND

COMPARED THE TWO INVESTIGATIONS TOGETHER. AND IT CAME

UP_-MY FINAL WAS THAT IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY THEY HAD

PROPER CURB AND GUTTERS, PROPER STREET LIGHTS, PROPER

PAVING AND DITCH, YOU KNOW, DRAINAGE AND THAT KIND OF

THING. AND THE BLACK COMMUNITY DONIT HAVE THAT KIND OF

SERVI CE.

A WHRT DID YOUR INVESTIGATION OF THE PUBLIC

HOUSING IN HALIFAX COUNTY REVEAL?

A IN MY INVESTIGATION OF PUBLIC HOUSING, I FOUN

IN THAT THAT IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY 95 PERCENT OF IT

WAS BLACK. IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY, 95 PERCENT WAS WHITE.

AND.ALSO I FOUND THAT.IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY THAT IN THE

LARGE FOUR-BEDROOM APARTMENT--ALL OF THEM l'JOULD Bt:

OUTSIDE THE CITY LIMIT IN NORTHAMPTON COUNTY IN A LARGE

BLACK COMMUNITY. AID THE WHITE COMMUNITY WOULD HAVE SMAL

APARTMENTS BUILT IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.

I WOULD SAY WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THAT BLACK

PEOPLE HAD LARGER FAMILIES THAN WHITE. SO THAT MEANS

THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAD MORE CHILDREN TH.qN WHITE PEOPLE

DIry AND THAT IN ROANOKE RAPIDS WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH

SEGREGATED SCHOOLS, -ESPECIALLY 
HIGH SCHOOLS. AND



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ANYTIME YOU SEND ALL THESE LARGE FAMILIES OUTSIDE THE

CITY LIMITS, THE SCHOOLS MAY BE MORE SEGREGATED.

NO",r, you MENTIONED THE SCHOOL SySTEM. ARE

YOU AWARE OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CITY SCHOOL

SYSTEM AND THE COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM?

YES; I AM.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

THE COUNTY SCHOOLS--95 PERCENT IS BLACK IN

THE COUNTY SCHOOLS. YOUR C I TY SCHOOLS--9 5 OF THEI{ I S

WHITE. AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THE I^,AY THE SCHOOL

BOUNDARY LINE IS DRAWED TO EXCLUDE ALL THE BLACK KIDS

WHICH LIVE IN IIOLLERING DISTANCE OF THE SCHOOL. AND

THEY HAVE TO GO 18 MILES OUT IN THE COUNTY TO THE COUNTY

SCHOOLS. AND THEY CANNOT ATTEND THE CITY SCHOOLS.

DO YOU KNOW MANY TIMES THE SCHOOL BOUNDARY

LINES HAVE BEEN REDRAWN?

A TO MY UNOERSTANDING, IT IS ABOUT TWO OR THREE

T IMES.

A AND THOSE BLACK STUDENTS THAT YOU SAID HAD TO

GO 18 MILES TO THE COUI.ITY SCHOOL--WHERE DO THEY LIVE?

A THEY LIVE RIGHT BESIDE THE SCHOOL BOUNDARY

INE. YOU CAN LOOK AT THE SCHOOL. THEY LIVE IN THE

ITY LIMITS BUT NOT INSIDE THE SCHOOL BOUNDARY LINE.

HO\,, l,tOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF IN TERMS OF

C IVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIT_IES?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085' 779-36:|9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WELL, I WOULD DESCRIBE MYSELF AS A REAL

CONCERNED LEAD::R ABOUT BLACK PEOPLES AND CONCERNED

ABOUT BLACK PEOPLEIS IdELFARE AND TRY TO HELP BLACKS-_

TRYING TO HELP THEM AND SHOW THEM WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT

IS WRONG, TO THE BEST OF MY KI\IOWLEDGE, AS THEY ASK ME To

DO SO.

A HAVE YOU EXPERIEIJCED ANY PROBLEMS AS A RESULT

OF THIS ACTIVITY?

A YES; I HAVE.

A WHAT PROBLEMS ARE THOSE?

A WELL, DURING THE TIME I WAS WORKING FOR THE

ALBEMARLE PAPER COMPANY, I USED TO--CN MY LOCKER BOX

I HAD THE KU KLUX KLAI'J LITTLE PAMPHLETS ON MY LOCKER BOX

AND ON MY CAR WINDSHIELD WHEN I COME OUT TO GO HOME.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS : I^II.IAT PER I OD OF T IME I S

HE DESCRIBING NOW? WOULD YOU ASK THAT QUESTION?

JUDGE DUPREE: BEFORE , 66.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A MR. MOODY, DURING WHAT PERIOD OF TIME HAVE

YOU EXPERIENCED PROBLEMS AS A RESULT OF YOUR CIVIL

RIGHTS ACTIVITIES?

A BACK IN 1967, ',68 AND ON BACK. AND ALSO,

WHEN I WOULD GO I N Al.lD TAKE A SHOWER, THEY WoULD POUR

COLD WATER ON ME AS I WAS IN THE SHOWER. AND ALSO I

WAS TOLD THAT I MIGHT GET KILLED_-MIGHT LOSE MY LIFE.

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PBECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND I WAS CALLED NAMES, YOU KNOW. "'I WAS CUSSED OUT AN

CALLED ALL KIND OF NAMES BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNION

BACK THERE THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN REPRESENTING

ME.

A NOW, WHO IS YOUR REPRESENTATIVE IN THE NORTH

CAROLINA STATE HOUSE?

A FRANK BALLANCE--HE REPRESENTS PART OF HALIFAX

COUNTY.

A DO YOU CONSIDER HIM YOUR REPRESENTATIVE?

A YES; I DO.

A WERE YOU ABLE TO VOTE FOR HIM IN THE LAST

ELECT'ION?

A NO; MAS NOT.

A ARE YOU IN HIS DISTRiCT?

A NO; I AM NOT.

A WHY DO YOU CONSIDER HIM YOUR REPRESENTATIVE..

A WELL, WE HAVE SERIOUS'PROBLEMS IN HALIFAX

COUNTY. AND WE HAVE CALLEQ UP ON FRANK SINCE HE WAS

ELECTED TO THAT POSITION IN THE }IOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

AND HE HAS RESPONDED TO MY REQUESTS.

A DID YOU WOP.K IN HIS CAMPAIGN?

A YES; I DID.

A DO YOU THINK THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE IN HALI-

FAX COUNTY CAN GET ELECTED IF HE OR SHE IS RUNNING FROM

A DISTRICT I,/HERE THE MA.JORITY OF THE VOTERS ARE WHITE?

A P. O. Bor 2ll(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NO; I DONTT.

A WHY IS THAT?

A BECAUSE OF THE

DRAWED AT THIS PRESENT.

SINGLE DISTRICT IN ORDER

a Do You HAVE AN

PEOPLE IN HALIFAX COUNTY

CA|\ID I DATE ?

WAY THAT THE DISTRICT LINE IS

I FEEL THAT YOU I.4UST HAVE A

FOR BLACKS TO BE ELECTED.

OPINION AS TO WHETHER WHITE

ARE WILLING TO VOTE FOR A BLACK

FOR .'UST A SECOND, BECAUS

IITHEYII ARE ?

couNSEL, IT TdOULD BE

NO. THE WHITE CANDIDATES ARE NOT GOING TO

VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN CON-

S'TANTLY PARTICIPATING IN CITY COUI.JCiL MEETTNGS AND COUNT

COMMISSION MEETINGS WHEN THE BLACK CANDIDATES HAD BEEN

RUNNING DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS--WHEN T}-IEY DID RUN.

AND SOME OF THE CANDIDATES THAT RUN, LIKE

GRANVILLE CARTER--TI.IEY WOULD SAY A HARSH WORD ABOUT HIM

BECAUSE HE RAN.

A CAN I INTERRUPT

I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTOOD

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :

EXTREMELY HELPFUL IF YOU WOULD YOURSELF TAKE THE

INITIATIVE TO KEEP YOUR WITNESSI ANSWERS RESPONSIVE. MR

LEONARD IS VERY DEFERENTIALLY NOT OBJECTING, AS HE WELL

MIGHT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS WHEN HIS ANSWERS RANGED FAR

BEYOND THE QUESTION. AND l,JE ARE LETTiNG HIM PROCEED.

MS. GUINIEP.,:. ...I WILt CERTAINLY TRY,

YOU

,WHO

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PREClSION REPORTlNG
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YOUR HONOR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

OUT OF BOUNDS. AND I THINK

I CALL UPON YOU TO DO THAT.

MS. GUINIER:

IN HALI FAX COUNTY?

A HE USED TO

OF THE HALIFAX COUNTY

HE IS GETTING COMPLETELY

YOU CAN CONTROL THAT. AND

I WILL TRY VERY HARD,

YOUR HONOR.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU CAN ASK ALL THE

QUESTIONS THAT ARE PROPER THAT TIME ALLOWS. AND YOU

ARE ENTITLED TO GET RESPONSiVE ANSWERS TO TI.IEM AS LONG

AS THEY STAY iN THE BOUNDS OF RELEVANCE. BUT YOU CAN

DO A LITTLE BETTER JOB, I THII'JK, OF.CONTROLLING THE

RESPONSES YOU ARE GETTING.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A DID YOU WORK IN THE CAMPAIGN OF ANY BLACK

CANDIDATE--LET ME REPHRASE THAT. YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU

WORKED IN THE CAMPAIGN OF GEORGE YOUNG, I BELIEVE; iS

THAT CORRECT?

YES; I DID

WHO IS GEORGE YOUNG?

GEORGE YOUNG WAS A BLACK PERSON THAT LIVED IN

HALI FAX COUNTY.

A DiD GEORGE YOUNG HOLD A PARTICULAR POSITION

BE THE ASSISTANT SUPERINTENDENT

S CHOOLS .

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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a DID GEORGE YOUNG RUN FOR COUNTY COI,IMISSION?

A YES; HE DID.

a Do You KNow WHEN HE RAN?

A BACK IN 1980.

a Do you KNow How tlANy SEATS THERE ARE ON THE

COUNTY COMI4ISSION?

A I TH II.IK THERE ARE ABOUT S I X SEATS, I BEL I EVE .

a DID GEORGE YOUNG WIN HIS CAMPAiGN FOR CoUNTY

COMMISSION?

A NO; HE DIDNTT.

A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE SIX_

MEMBER COUNTY COMMISSION IN HALIFAX?

,,,' A ALL SIX OF THEM ARE ALL WHITE.

A HAS A BLACK PERSON EVER BEEN ELECTED TO THE

COUNTY COMMiSSION IN HALIFAX COUNTY?

A NO; THEY HAVE NOT.

A YOU MENTIONED YOU ALSO WORKED IN THE RACE OF

GRAI{VI LLE CAR'lER ?

A YES; I DID.

A WHO IS GRANVILLE CARTER?

A GRANVILLE CARTER IS A RESIDENT-_A BLACK

RESIDENT--OF ROANOKE RAPIDS-'-HALIFAX COUNTY.

A HOW HAD HE BEEN EMPLOYED? WHAT WAS HIS STATUS

IN THE COMMUNITY?

A GRANVILLE_CARTER WAS A RETIRED VETERAN FROM

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THE SERVI CE .

A HOW WAS HE RECEIVED IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A GRANVILLE CARTER WAS AN OUTSTANDING PERSON

IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. PEOPLE THAT HAVE TALKED TO ME

ABoUT HIM THoUGHT HE WAS, YoU KNoW, A l.vELL THoUGHT-ABoUT

GENTLEMAN TO RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL AT THAT TIME.

WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HE RAN FOR CITY COUNCIL IN

1980?

HE LOST, TOO.

WHAT IS THE COMPOSITION OF THE CITY COUNCIL?

ALL WHITE.

THIS IS THE CITY COUNCIL OF ROANOKE RAPIDS?

YES; IT IS.

HAS A BLACK PERSON EVER BEEN ELECTED TO THE

CITY COUNCIL?

NO; THEY HAVE NOT.

A I BELIEVE IN RESPONSE TO A PREVIOUS YOU WERE

SPEAKI NG A3OU.I. SOME PROBLEMS THAT GRANVI LLE CARTER

EXPERIENCED DURING HiS CAMPAIGN?

YES; HE DID.

WHAT WERE THOSE PROBLEMS?

A

o

A WELL, WHEN HE RAN FOR OFFICE HE

NOT A LOT, BUT HE HAD SOME HARSH WORDS SAID

BECAUSE HE RAN FOR THE OFFI CE. WE FELT THE

WORDS I^'ERE SAID WAS _BECAUSE 
HE WAS BLACK.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

HAD A LOT OF-

ABOUT HIM

REASON THE

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O,8or 2l!&

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PREC!SION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND THESE HARSH WORDS WERE SAID BY WHOM?

A BY l^,H I TE PERSONS .

A AND YOU SAID YOU ALSO WORKED IN THE CAMPAIGN

OF .J. D. PERNELL?

A YES; I DID.

A WHAT OFFICE DID .J. D. PERNELL SEEK?

A THE CITY COUNCIL SEAT IN ROANOKE RAPIDS.

A WHEN DI D LI . D. PERNELL RUN ?

A rN 1976.

a IN YOUR OPINION, MR. MOODY, DO BLACKS IN

HALIFAX COUNTY HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AS WHITES TO

PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS?

A NO; THEY DONTT.

A DO BLACKS IN HALIFAX COUNTY IN YOUR OPINION

HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AS WHITES TO ELECT CANDIDATES

OF THEIR CHOICE?

A NO; THEY DONTT.

MS. GUINIER: -- I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUESTTONS.

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 3:08 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR . I4OODY, YOU TE ST I F I ED A FEI,' MQMENTS AGO

ABOUT A PROBLEM WITH RESPECT TO THE SCHOOL BOARD. DID I

UNDERSTAND yOU TO StY THAT THAT WAS THE COUI.ITY SCHOOL

F P, O. Bor 2ilB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BOARD ?

A NO. I DIDNIT TESTIFY TO THE COUNTY SCHOOL

BOARD, I DON!T THINK.

a \^,AS rT THE CITY SCHOOL BOARD?

A I TESTIFIED TO--NOT THE COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD.

I TESTIFIED TO THE COUNTY HAVING SCHOOLS OUT IN THE

COUNTY WHICH THE STUDENTS LIVED INSIDE THE CITY LIMIT

AND HAVE TO ATTEND THE COUNTY SCHOOLS. THAT HAS BEEN

MY TESTIMONY.

A IS THAT PART OF ROANOKE RAPIDS WHICH IS IN

HA,LIFAX COUNTY IN THE HALTFAX COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM OR

DOES IT HAVE A SEPARATE SCHOOL SYSTEM?

A WELL, THE COUNTY HAS A SEPARATE SCHOOL SYSTEM

AND THE ROANOKE RAPIDS CITY HAS A SEPARATE SCHOOL

SYSTEM_-TWO BOARDS. SEE, THE CITY HAS A SCHOOL BOARD

INSI.DE THE CITY. AND THE COUNTY HAS A SCHOOL BOARD

INSIDE THE COUNTY. -

A NOW, EARLIER I THOUGHT YOU TESTIFIED TO A

PROBLEM RELATING TO THE SCHOOLS. AND MY QUESTION IS

DID THAT PROBLEM RELATE TO THE CITY SCHOOLS OR THE COUNT

S CHOOLS ?

A WELL, IT RELATES TO THE CITY SCHOOLS.

q YOU DIDN' T TESTIFY TO ANY PROBLEM RELATING TO

THE COUNTY SCHOOLS?

A NO; I DIDNTT.o

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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. I|IAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUE ST I ONS .

LIUDGE PHI LL I PS : ALL RI GHT. WE WI LL TAKE

A RECESS UNTIL 3i25.

(wl'rNess ExcusED. )

(rne pRocEEDING t,lAS REcESSED AT 3:10 P.M., To

RECONVENE AT 3:25 P.t'1., THIS SAME DAY.)

F P. O. &r 2Cra!
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FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 3i25 P.M)

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IN RESPONSE TO COUNSEL'S

INQUIRY ABOUT THE MOTION AT THE END OF THE PLAINTIFFSI

CASE AND THE OPENING STATEMENT, THE COURT WILL NOT BE

DISPOSED TO TAKE ARGUMENT ON THE MOTION. WE WILL LISTEN

TO YOU IF YOU NEVERTHELESS WANT TO MAKE. BUT WE SUGGEST

THAT IT WOULD NOT BE HELPFUL.

AND THE COURT WOULD, HOWEVER, TF COUNSEL IS

DISPOSED TO GIVE US AN OPENING STATEMENT, BE GLAD TO

HEAR A BRIEF OPENING STATEMEI',IT TO PULL TOGETHER THE

DEFENDANTS' CASE AS IT IS PRO\'ECTED IN LIGHT OF THE

PLAINTIFFS' CASE. IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO US. AND SO WE

INVITE YOU TO DO THAT IF YOU ARE DISPOSED TO DO IT.

MR. LEONARD: I WILL DO MY BEST TO BE

VERY BRIEF.

JUDGEDUPREE:ANYFURTHEREVIDENCEFoR

THE PLAINTIFFS?

MS. I,TINNER: AT THIS TIME THE GINGLES

PLAI NTI FFS HAVE NO MORE T'II TNESSES AVAI LABLE, ALTHOUGH

wEHAVETWoMoREWITNESSES,MR.BALLANCEANDMR.

WILLINGHAM.

ATTHISTIMEwEwoULDREqUESTTHATTHECoURT

GO OVER TO THE PUGH PLAINTIFFS FOR A WHILE'

.JUDGEPHILLIPS:wEWILLBEGLADToHEAR

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGII, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA
- 

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA

AT THIS TIME, AS PROMTSED, FROM THE PUGH PLAINTIFF

I NTEP.\ENORS AND SEE WHAT THEY PROPOSE TO DO ABOUT THE

PARTICIPATION IN THE GINGLES CLASS ACTION.

MR. HUNTER: WE WOULD ONLY CALL ONE

WITNESS. AND THAT WOULD BE DR. THEODORE ARRINGTON. WE

WOULD LIKE TO CALL HIM AT THIS TIME.

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : ALL RI GHT. WE WI LL HEAR

DR. ARRINGTON. AI.ID I AM SURE COUNSEL HAS ADVISED DR.

ARRINGTON OF THE SCOPE OF T}{E EXAMINATION THAT WILL BE

APPROPRIATE AND THE GENERAL BOUNDS OF RELEVANCE.

MR. HUNTER: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE

ADVISED HIM OF THAT AS YOU HAVE ADVISED ME OF THAT.

(WNT RE UPON,

THEODORE ARRINGTON

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOWS: )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 3i3O P.M.

BY MR. HUNTER:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AilD ADDRESS, PLEASE

A    

CHARLOTTE, NORTH CARoLINA.

aWoULDYoUBRIEFLYSTATEFoRTHECoURTWHATIS

YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND?

AIHAVEA_PH.D.INPoLITICALSCIENCEFRoMTHE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

UNIVERSITY OF ARIZOI.IA.

A HOW ARE YOU PRESENTLY EMPLOYED?

A I HAVE BEEN EMPLOYED FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS

BY THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHARLOTTE, WHERE

I AM ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND THE

PRESIDENT OF THE FACULTY.

A IN ADDITION TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT AT THE UNIVER-

SITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHARLOTTE, DO YOU HOLD ANY

PUBLIC OFFICES?

A I AM CURRENTLY SERVING MY THIRD TERM AS A

MEMBER OF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS.

A HAVE YOU PUBLISHED ARTICLES ON NORTH CAROLINA

ELECTIONS AND NORTH CAROLINA CAMPAIGN PRACTICES IN

RECOGN I ZED POL I T I CAL SC I ENCE iJOURNALS ?

A YES.

A HOW MANY OF THESE STUDIES HAVE DEALT WITH

FINANC ING CONTRI BUTIONS?

A I HAVE TWO ARTICI.ES AND THREE PAPERS AT

PROFESSIONAL MEETINGS WHICH HAVE DEALT WITH THE SUB.JECT

OF CAMPAIGN FINANCE IN NORTH CAROLINA.

A HAVE YOU PREPARED A RESUME OR VITA WHICH HAS

BEEN MARKED FOR THE COURT AS PUGH PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT

NUMBER 2? AND DOES THIS BRIEFLY SUMMARIZE YOUR EDUCA.

TIONAL AND PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE?

(eo To THE NEXT PAGE.)

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

(puen PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 2

WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

A YES. THIS IS THE ONE I PREPARED. AND IT DOE

REPRESENT MY PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE.

MR. HUNTER: YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME

I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF DR.

ARRINGTONI S VITA AND REQUEST THE COURT THAT HE BE

CONSIDERED AN EXPERT IN THE FIELD OF NORTH CAROLINA

POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS, ELECTIONS AND PRACTICES.

MR. LEONARD: WE HAVE NO OB.JECTION.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THERE I S NO OB.JECT I OI',I .

THE EXHIBIT WILL BE RECEIVED. AND THE WITNESS IS

QUALIRED IN THE RESPECTS OUTLINED BY COUNSEL.

(PUEN PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 2

WAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

, BY MR. HUNTER:

a DR. ARRINeTON, WHAT STUDIES HAVE YOU DONE OF

CAMPAIGN COSTS AND CONTRIBUTIONS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A I STUDIED ALL OF THE OFFICIAL CAMPAIGN REPCRT

OF ALL OF THE CANDIDATES FOR LOCAL OFFICE EXCEPT FOR

STATE SENATOR FROM I975 THROUGH 1980. AND I ALSO STUDIE

IN DEPTH ALL OF THE CONTRIBUTOP.S TO ALL OF THE CANDIDA

IN 1978 Al.,lD 1979.

A}'HATELECTIONSWOULDTHESEBECOMPOSEDOF?

WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT FOR THE COURT, PLEASE?

F P. O. Bor 2atAl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THESE WOULD BE COMPOSED OF THE NORTH CARO-

LINA HOUSE; CHARLOTTE CITY COUNCIL, BOTH AT LARGE AND

DISTP.ICT; COUNTY COMMISSION; AND SUCH SINGLE_MET,IBER

EXECUTIVE OFFICES AS SHERIFF; AND THE ScHool B0ARD.

OF] THE CHARLOTTE CITY CoUNcIL ELECTIoNS THAT

YOU STUDIED--DO THEY HAVE BOTH MULTI-MEMBER AND SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICTS IN I.4ECKLENBURG COUNTY?

YES.

a WHEN

THESE DISTRICTS

AND ELECTED FROM

I SAY IIS I NGLE-MEMBER DI STR I CTS, 'I ARE

I N I'lH I CH THE CAND I DAT ES ARE NOM I NATED

ONE DISTRICT?

YE S.

A WHAT DATA DID YOU GLEAN FROM THESE CAMPAIGN

COSTS AND CONTRIBUTION LISTS? HOW DID YOU ORGANIZE THE

DATA?

. A IN ORGANIZING THE DATA, WHAT WE DID WAS LOOK

AT THE OFFICIAL CANPNIET.T REPORTS AND RECORD THE NAME,

ADDRESS, PARTY REGISTRATION> SEX, RACE OF EACH CONTRIBU-

TOR TO EACH CANDIDATE DURING THAT TIME. AND THEN WE

MERGED THOSE FILES WITH THE INFORMATION ON THE CANDI_

DATES--HOW MUCH THEY SPENT, WHETHER THEY HAD RUN BEFORE

FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, AND SO FORTH. AND WHEN WE MERGED

THOSE TWO, THEN WE HAD AN ACCURATE PICTURE OF WHO GAVE

HOW MUCH TO WHICH CANDIDATES.

IS THIS METHODOLOGY THAT YOU USED IN COMPARIN

F P. O. Bor ztrd
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THIS DATA STANDARDLY RECOGNTZED IN THE POLITICAL

SCIENCE ACADEMIC COMMUNITY?

A YES.

A DID YOU CONDUCT THIS STUDY FOR PURPOSES OF

THI S LAWSUIT?

A NO. I RECEIVED A GRANT FROM THE FOUNDATION

OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHARLOTTE TO DO

THIS STUDY FOR ACADEMIC PURPOSES.

q AFTER COMPARING THIS DATA, WHAT CONCLUSIONS

DID YOU REACH AFTER YOU COMPLETED YOUR STUDY?

, A I REACHED FOUR BASIC CONCLUSIONS. FIRST OF

ALL, AT LARGE ELECTION CAMPAIGNS COST CANDIDATES MORE

THAN TWICE AS MUCH AS DO SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT ELECTI

SECONDLY, I FOUND THAT GIVING TO CANDIDATES TEI'.IDS TO

FOLLOW RACIAL LINES. THAT IS, BLACKS TEND TO CONTRIBUTE

TO BLACK CANDIDATES. AND WHITES TEND TO CONTRIBUTE' TO

WHITE CANDIDATES.

WE DISCOVERED THAT ONLY 2 PERCENT OF THE MONE

THAT WHITE CANDIDATES RECEIVED HAD COME FROM BLACK

CONTRIBUTORS; WFIEREAS, WE DISCOVERED THAT ABOUT 3O PER-

CENT OF THE MONEY RECEIVED BY BLACK CANDIDATES CAME FROM

WHITE CONTRIBUTORS. THIRD.--

MR. LEONARD:

I F THE COURT PLEASE.-.

MR. HUNTER:

(TNTeRpOSING) CXCUSE ME

(TNTTRPOSING) HE OUGHT

F P. O.8or 2trci
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. iAArN OFF|CE, RAIE|GH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PI{OENIX, ARIZONA

TO BE ABLE TO FINISH HIS ANSWER.

MR. LEONARD:

WERENIT YOU FINISHED?

THE WITNESS:

I AM SORRY, DOCTOR.

NUMBER THREE, WE DIS-

COVERED THAT BLACKS GIVE TO CANDIDATES AS OFTEN AS DO

WHITES. BUT THEY GIVE MUCH LESS MONEY. NUMBER FOUR, WE

DISCOVERED THAT ONLY ABOUT 1O PERCENT OF THE CANDIDATES

WHO RAN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE DURING THIS PERIOD I,'ERE BLACK.

THAT ALLOI,'S THE BLACK CONTRIBUTORS, WHO HAVE MUCH LESS

}4ONEY TO CONTRIBUTE, TO CONICENTRATE THEIR CAMPAIGN

CONTRIBUTIONS ON A SMALLER PROPORTION OF CANDIDATES.

BLACKS CONSTITUTE 1B PERCENT OF THE REGIS.

TERED VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, BUT ONLY 1O PERCENT

OF THE CANDIDATES.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, IT

MAY BE OBVIOUS. BUT I DONIT THINK COUNSELIS QUESTION

WITH RESPECT TO THE CONCLUSIONS WAS LIMITED TO THIS

WIT}.IESS t CONCLUSIONS RELATING ONLY TO MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

IF THAT IS THE UNDERSTANDING OF COUNSEL ON

THE WITNESSI ANSWER, THEN I HAVE NO OB.JECTION. IF IT IS

NOT, I AM GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE IT ON THE GROUNDS THAT

THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR IT.

.JUDGE PHI LL IPS: COUNSEL, WOULD YOU ASK

AN APPROPRIATE QUESTION OF YOUR WITNESS WHICH WOULD

I ND I CATE THE BAS I S OF_HI S AI''ISWER?

F P. O. lor 2!1{li!
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. HUNTER:

BY MR. HUNTER:

YES.

A DR. ARRINGTON, AS YOU TESTIFIED IN THE INITIA

QUESTION REGARDING YOUR STUDY, DID YOU ONLY STUDY

CAMPAIGNS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A I ONLY STUDIED CAMPAIGN FINANCE IN MECKLENBUR

COUNTY.

MR. HUNTER:

MR. LEONARD:

IS THAT RESPONSIVE?

THE QUESTION IS ARE THE

CONCLUSIONS LIMITED TO THE FINDINGS FROM MECKLENBURG

COUNTY ONLY?

THE WITNESS:

BY MR. HUNTER:

YES.

a DR. ARRINGTON, IS YOUR FIRST CONCLUSION--THAT

THAT THE COST OF RUNNING IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT BEI

GREATER THAN TWICE THE COST OF RUNNING IN A SINGLE-MEMBE

DISTRICT--TRUE FOR BLACK CANDIDATES AS WELL AS FOR WHITE

CAND I DATES ?

A YES.

A IS IT ALSO TRUE THAT THE COST OF RUNNING IN A

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IS MORE THAN TWICE THE COST OF

RUNNING IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT--TRUE FOR WINNERS AS

WELL AS LOSING CANDIDATES?

A YES.

A WHAT CONCLUSION DID YOU REACH IN REGARD TO

lll P. O. 3or zal(,
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE CONTRIBUTIONS THAT WHITES MAY MAKE TO BLACK

CAMPAIGNS?

A WHEN WHITES CONTRIBUTED TO BLACK CANDIDATES,

THEY GAVE LESS THAN WHEN THEY CONTRiBUTED TO WHITE

CAND IDATES.

A IN REGARD TO BLACK CONTRIBUTIONS, DID BLACKS

CONTRIBUTE AS MUCH TO BLACKS AS WHITES CONTRIBUTED TO

WHITE CANDIDATES?'

A ONCE AGAIN, PLEASE.

A DID BLACK CONTRIBUTORS CONTRIBUTE ON THE

AVERAGE THE SAME AMOUNT OF FUNDS AS WHITE CONTRIBUTOR.S

CONTRIBUTED TO WHITE CANDIDATES?

A I AM SORRY, COUNSELOR. YOU GET SO MANY WHITE

AND BLACKS. OKAY. GO AHEAD.

A DID BLACK CONTRIBUTORS CONTRIBUTE ON THE

AVERAGE AS MUCH MONE' ]O BLACK CANDIDATES AS WHITE

CONTRIBUTORS CONTP.IBUTED TO WHITE CANDIDATES?

A NO.

a I NOW SHOI/ yOU A LrST OF EXHIBITS WHICH ARE

THE PUGH PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBITS NUMBERS 6 THROUGH 20 AND

ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THESE?

(pueH PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NOS. 6

THROUGH 2O WERE MARKED FOR

IDENTIFICATtOtt. )

JUDGE PHJIJ IPS: DO WE HAVE COPIES OFo
F P. O. Bor iAict
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THESE AT THE BENCH?

THE CLERK:

IS ON YOUR NOTEBOOK.

YES, SIR; YOU DO. IT

THE WI TNESS:

BY MR. HUNTER:

YES.

A ARE THESE YOUR WORK PRODUCT?

A THESE ARE MY WORK.

MR. HUNTER: AT THIS TIME, THESE HAVE

BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.

BY MR. HUNTER:

A COULD YOU EXPLAIN USING PUGH PLAINTIFFSI

EXHI B IT NUMBER 7 AS AN EXAMPLE, WHAT THESE TABLES

I LLUSTRATE ?

MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE ME. IF THE COURT

PLEASE, I HAVE NO OBL'ECTION TO THESE DOCUMENTS OR THEIR

RECE.IPT INTO EVIDENCE. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW AS A

MATTER OF FOUNDATION WHAT THE PROPOSED BSTH AND PROPOSED

91ST DISTRICTS ARE AND WHAT.IN THE OTHER EVIDENCE THEY

RELATE TO.

MR. HUNTER: I WILL BE HAPPY TO DO

THAT IF HE CAN ILLUSTRATE IS MEANT BY--.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: (TUTCNPOSING) NS I

UNDERSTOOD IT, THAT WAS I,IHAT I{AS COMING UP NEXT.

MR. HUNTER: IT IS.

LIUDGE PHILLIPS: HE WAS GOING TO USE THIS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OPPORTUNITY THAT YOU HAVE JUST GIVEN HIM TO MAKE THAT

RELATIONSHIP. I AGREE WITH COUNSEL THAT BEFORE WE KNOI.I

WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE, WE NEED TO KNOW V,'HAT 88

AND 91 ARE.

T4R. HUNTER : THESE ARE DISTRICTS

WHICH WERE INTRODUCED INTO THE GENERAL ASSEI.{BLY BY

REPRESENTATIVE HAGY IN THE HOUSE TO ILLUSTRATE A

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, FOR EXAM

AND THESE ARE THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION IN THOSE

DISTRICTS IF YOU USE THE VOTING TRENDS FOR 1980 BASED

UPON THE CANVASS--OFFICIAL CAI.IVASS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS THAT--_

THE WITNESS: (tNrrRpos rNG) Yrs, YouR

HONOR.

L,UDGE PHI LLI PS: YOU MAY PP.OCEED.

BY MR. HUNTER:

A USING PUGH PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 7, WHI

IS TABLE 3, WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL THE COURT I^,HAT THE

COLUMNS REPRESENT?

A THE EFFORT HERE IS SIMPLY TO COMPARE THE

RESULTS OF THE ELECTION IN THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT.-IN

THE PUGH PLAINTIFFS' NUMBER 7, THIS WOULD BE MECKLENBURG

COUNTY--WITH THE RESULT IN THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT,

WHICH IS SUBSTANTIALLY BLACK, WHICH T'IAS DRAWI'.I FOR THAT

COUNTY IN THE HAGY PLAN.

F P. O. lor 2llCt
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THERE ARE TWO SUBSTANTIALLY BLACK DISTRICTS

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IN THE HAGY PLAN. BUT THIS

PARTICULAR EXHIBIT ONLY SHOWS THE RESULTS OF ONE OF THEM,

THE OTHER BEING REPETITIVE.

ON THE FAR LEFT, YOU SEE THE NAMES OF THE

CANDIDATES AND THEN THE NUMBER OF VOTES THAT THEY

ACTUALLY RECEIVI.:D IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THEN THE

PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT THEY RECEIVED IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY. THE PERCENTAGE IS COMPUTED IN THE WAY THAT IS

STANDARD IN NORTH CAROLINA. THAT IS, IT IS THE PERCEN-

TAGE OF THE VOTE THAT THE CAT.IDIDATE AS A PERCENTAGE OF

THE VOTE CAST FOR ALL OF THE CANDIDATES DIVIDED BY THE

NUMBER OF SEATS. TI]AT IS THE METHOD, FOR EXAMPLE, BY

WHICH YOU DETERMINE WHETHER A PERSON HAS WON A PRIMARY

OR NOT.

, THEN THE NEXT COLUMN IS THE TOTAL VOTE FOR

EACH OF THE CANDIDATES IN THE PROPOSED 88TH DISTRICT,

WHICH IS ONE OF THE TWO SUBSTANTIALLY BLACK DISTRICTS IN

THE HAGY PLAN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY; AND THEN THE PERCEN

OF THE VOTE, AGAIN FIGURED BY THE NORTH CAROLINA METHOD.

THE REST OF THE TABLE I S NOT RELEVANT TO THE CASE AT

AS YOU CAN SEE FROM EXHIBIT NUMBER 7, IN THE

LARGE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY BERTHA

MAXWELL, A BLACK CANDIDATE, CAME':IN NINTH IN AN EIGHT-

SEAT RACE-_IN OTHER WORDS, SHE LOST; WHEREAS IN THE

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AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832,9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZON^

PROPOSED BBTH DISTRICT SHE NOT ONLY WON, BUT CAME IN

FIRST AND CAME IN FIRST BY A LARGE MARGIN.

AND THE REASON THAT THE PERCENTAGE VOTE IS

FAR IN EXCESS OF 1OO PERCENT--THAT SIMPLY SHOWS THAT SHE

RECEIVED MANY SINGLE-SLOT OR BULLET VOTES IN THAT

DISTRICT.

A WHAT OTHER ELECTIONS IN ADDITION TO THE MECK-

LENBURG HOUSE GENERAL ELECTION IN 1980 DID YOU PERFORM

THIS COMPARISON FOR?

A I LOOKED AT TEN ELECTIONS IN FOUR COUNTIES.

THEY WERE THE ELECTIONS IN '80 AND 182 IN VJAKE, FORSYTH,

DURHAM AND MECKLENBURG FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

AND IN MECKLENBURG FOR THE SENATE.

A WHAT, IF ANY, CONCLUSIONS DID YOU REACH WHEN

YOU COMPARED THE HAGY_BALLENGER PLAI..I DISTRICTS WITH THE

EXI.STING MULTI_MEMBER. DISTRICTS IN THIS STUDY?

A I FOUND THAT IN THESE TWO--IN THESE ELECTIONS,

THERE WERE SEVEN BLACKS WHO ACTUALLY WON IN THE LARGE

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT. AND I FOUND THAT OF THESE, AT

LEAST SIX AND POSSIBLY THE SEVENTH WOULD HAVE WON IN THE

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS DRAWN BY THE HAGY AND BALLENGER

PLANS.

AND THEN IN ADDITION TO THAT, I FOUND THAT

FIVE BLACKS i'/HO LOST IN THE MULTI-MEMBER DI STRICTS WOULD

HAVE WON HAD THEY BEEN RUNNING IN THE SMALLER

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHO€NIX, ARIZONA

SINGLE_MEMBER DI!]TRICTS DRAWN BY THE HAGY AND BALLENGER

P LANS .

a WHAT, tF ANy, CONCLUSION DID yOU REACH IN RE-

GARD TO THESE ELECTIONS WITH REGARD TO RACIAL POLARIZATI

EVIDENT IN THESE ELECTIONS?

A I FOUND THAT THERE WAS A LARGE AMOUNT OF

RACIAL POLARIZATI'ON TN EVERY ONE OF THESE ELECTIONS.

A DID YOU TESTIFY AT THE FEBRUARY 1982 PUBLIC

HEARING IN REGARD TO REDISTRICTING?

A YEs.

A WAS YOUR TESTIMONY AT THAT TIME SIMILAR TO

YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY?

A YES.

A DID YOU AT THAT PUBLIC HEARING DISCUSS THE

SUBMERGENCE OF MINORITIES IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

. A YES.

a Do You HAVE AN OPINION SATISFACTORY TO YOUR-

SELF AS TO WHETHER OR NOT AT THAT TIME ONE COULD REASON-

ABLY FORESEE THE CONSEQUENCES OF CONTINUED USE OF MULTI-

MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE COUNTIES?

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I

THINK THAT I S SPECULATIVE, EVEN BEYOND THE REALM OF THE

EXPERT WI TNESS.

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS: WELL, I THINK HE COULD

TESTIFY AS TO WHAT HE COULD REASONABLY FORESEE.

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36l,9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. HUNTER: THAT IS WHAT I ASKED

HIM.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: I DID NoT UNDERSTAND THA

TO BE YOUR QUESTTON.

MR. HUNTER: THAT IS O}.IE--WHETHER OR

NOT HE--WELL, VERY WELL. LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION,

THEN, YOUR HONOR. I WILL WITHDRAW IT AND REPHRASE IT.

BY MR. HUNTER:

a Do you HAVE AN OPINION SATISFACTORY TO YOUR-

SELF AS TO WHETHER OR NOT AT THE TIME OF THE PUBLIC

HE.ARING YOU COULD REASONABLy FORESEE THE CONSEQUEt,tCES 0F

THE CONTINUED USE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE

E LECT I ONS ?

A YES.

A WHAT IS THAT OPINION?

. A THE CONTINUED USE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

IN NORTH CAROLINA IS AN IMPEDiMENT TO THE ELECTION.OF

BLACKS.

A HOW DOES THE USE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

IMPEDE THE ELECTION OF BLACKS IN NORTH CAROLINA IN THESE

E LECT I ONS ?

A IT IMPEDES THEM FIRST OF ALL BECAUSE THE BLAC

POPULATION IS SUBSTANTIALLY SUBMERGED IN THE LARGER,

MOSTLY WHITE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS; AND SECONDLY,

BECAUSE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS REqUIRE MORE MONEY TO

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PI{oENIX, ARIZONA

CAMPAIGN. AND BLACKS TEND TO HAVE LESS MONEY TO SPEND

ON SUCH CAMPAIGNS.

A WHEN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURE EXAMINE

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS OF

CITIZENS AND PARTICIPATION IN THE ELECTION PROCESS, WHAT

DO THEIR EXAMINATIONS FIND?

A THE LITERATURE CONSISTENTLY SHOWS THAT PERSON

I^'HO HAVE LOW SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS TEND TO PARTICIPATE IN

POLITICS LESS THAN THOSE WHO HAVE HIGH SOCIOECONOMIC

STATUS.

DOES THIS FINDING IN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE

LITERATURE IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION APPLY TO NORT

CAROLINA ELECTIONS IN THESE MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS?

YES. IT IS ONE OF THE FACTORS WHICH HELP TO

EXPLAIN WHY BLACKS PARTICIPATE LESS--FOR EXAMPLE, VOTE.

LESS--THAN DO WHITES.

MR. HUNTER:

\,UDGE PHILLIPS:

OFFER OF THESE EXHIBITS IN EVIDENCE?

MR. HUNTER: I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

AT THIS TIME I },,OULD LIKE--HE SAID HE DIDNIT HAVE ANY

OB.JECTIONS. I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THAT THE PUGH PLAIN-

TIFFST EXHIBITS NUMBER 5 THROUGH 20 BE OFFERED INTO

EVIDENCE AT THIS TIME.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I

NO FUR,THER QUEST I ONS .

HAVE WE HAD AN ACTUAL

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DID INFORM COUIISEL THAT I DID HAVE AN OB.JECTION TO---

MR. HUNTER: ( INTERPoS I NG) eXHI B IT

NUMBER 8. AND I HAVE EXPUNGED THAT.

JUDGE BRITT: YOU EXPUNGED THE OBJEC-

TION?

MR. HUNTER:

MR. LEONARD:

YES, S I R.

THERE WAS A FOOTNOTE ON

IT, IF THE COURT PLEASE. AND HE HAS TAKEN IT OFF. I

HAVE NO OB.JECT I ON.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: PUGH PLAINTI FFS I EXHIBIT

NUMBER 6 THROUGH 20 INCLUSIVE ARE ADMITTED WITHOUT

OBJECTION.

(PUEH PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NOS. 6

THROUGH 20 WERE RECEIVED IN

rvrueruce. )

CROS S -E XAM I NAT I ON 3:5OP.M.

BY MR. LEONARD: .

A DR. ARRINGTON, WHEN YOU DID YOUR STUDY WITH

RESPECT TO THE COST OF CAMPAIGNING IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY,

HOW DID YOU DETERMII'.IE WHO THE BLACKS AND THE WHITES WERE

WHq CONTRIBUTED TO THE VARIOUS CANDIDATES?

AWHENWEWENTTHRoUGHTHECANDIDATESIREPoRTS-

BY LAW THEY HAVE TO LIST THE PEOPLE WHO CONTRIBUTED BY

THEIR NAME AND ADDRFf S. .dE THEN ALPHABETIZED ALL OF

F P. O. Bor 2E'lail
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THOSE NAMES AND THEN COMPARED THEM TO THE VOTER REGIS-

TRATION ROLLS THERE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND TOOK THE

RACE OFF OF THE VOTER REGISTRATION ROLLS.

A ARE YOU SATISFIED THAT THE METHODOLOGY THAT

YOU USED WAS STATISTICALLY ACCURATE TO ENSURE THAT YOU

WERE PROPER LY C LAS S I FY I I.IG BY RACE THE CONTR I BUTORS ?

A YES.

A HOW MANY INDIVIDUALS WERE INVOLVED IN ALL THE

CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU STUDIED?

A WE HAD ABOUT 6,OOO DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS ON

THOSE L I STS.

A DID YOU IN YOUR QUANTITATIVE METHODOLOGY ALLOW

FOR OR CONSIDER THE FACT THAT AN INCUMBENT MIGHT BE

SEEKING RE-ELECT ION?

A YES. INCUMBENCY WAS ONE OF THE VARIABLES WE

EXAM INED.

a HOI^I DID YOU AD.JUST FOR THAT AS--YOU WOULD

AGREE, WOULD YOU NOT, THAT AN INCUI.IBENT IS MORE LIKELY

TO RECEIVE CAMPAIGN CONTRI BUTORS THAN A FIRST-TI'ME

CHALLENGE; WOULD YOU NOT?

A NOT IN THE DATA THAT WE LOOKED AT. IT DIDNIT

TURN OUT THAT WAY. NO. DO YOU WANT ME TO CONTINUE?

a No, THANKS. DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT AGREE WITH

THE GENERAL PROPOSITION THAT AN INCUMBENT IS MORE LIKELY

TO RECEIVE MORE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS GENERALLY SPEAKING

F P. O. Bor itrltB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAN A FIRST-TIME RUNNER OR A NON-INCUMBENT?

A THE DATA IN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURE

ON NATIONAL OFFICE INDICATES THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS qUITE

TRUE. THE DATA WE COLLECTED ON LOCAL OFFICES HERE DID

NOT SHOW THAT TO BE THE CASE.

A EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. WHAT DID THE DATA SHOW

THAT WOULD PROVE TO YOU OR SHOW YOU THAT INCUMBENTS WERE

LESS LIKELY TO RECEIVE CONTRIBUTIONS--OR RECEIVED LESS

CONTRIBUTIONS THAN FIRST-TIME RUNNERS?

A CHALLENGERS ON THE AVERAGE SPENT MORE MONEY

THAN INCUMBENTS DID ON THE AVERAGE.

a Do CANDTDATES FOR POLITICAL OFFICE NEED TO

SPEND SOME OF THEIR TIME RAISING MONEY?

A YES.

A IS IT EASIER FOR AN INCUMBENT TO RAISE MONEY

THAN IT IS FOR A CHALLENGER?

A YES.

a DID YOU FACTOR TIIAT INTO YOUR FINDINGS?

A NO. THERE WAS NO WAY TO FACTOR EFFORT INTO

THE EQUATION.

A PUTTING ASIDE FOR A MOMENT MECKLENBURG COUNTY

WHAT DOES THE LITERATURE TELL YOU GENERALLY I^IITH RESPECT

TO CONTRIBUTIONS BY RACE?

A NOThI I NG .

A NOBODY HAS EVER DONE SUCH A STUDY?

F P. O. Aor 2!!tit
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICI, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NO. IT IS TOO DIFFICULT CLERICALLY.

A SO THIS IS A CASE OF FIRST IMPRESSION?

A IT IS THE CASE OF FIRST ACTUAL RESEARCH.

A DID IT SURPRISE YOU TO LEARN.THAT .THE CAN-

DIDATES RUNNING AT LARGE-.THAT THOSE ELECTIONS COST ONLY

TWICE AS MUCH AS A CANDIDATE RUNNING FROM A SINGLE-MEMBE

DISTRICT?

IT WAS AT LEAST TWICE AS MUCH. BUT NO--I WAS

NOT SURPRI SED.

A YOU USED THE TERM IN ANSWER TO COUNSELIS

QUESTION THAT THERE WAS--I BELIEVE THIS IS A QUOTE--IIA

LARGE AMOUNT OF RACIAL POLARIZATIONII?

YES.

A WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

A I MEAN THAT THE DIFFEREI'ICES BETWEEN THE WAY

WHIT.ES WERE VOTING AND THE WAY BLACKS WERE VOTING WAS

SUBSTANTIALLY LARGE. 
'O* 

EXAMPLE , IF YOU WISH ME TO

CONT I NUE---

a (lllrrRPosING) PLEASE?

A IF WE GO BACK TO PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 7-

PUGH PLAiNTIFFSI EXHIBIT 7--WE SEE THAT BERTHA MAXWELL

ONLY GOT 52 PERCENT OF THE VOTE--AGAIN, FIGURING THAT

PERCENT IN THE NORTH CAROLINA FASHION--IN MECKLENBURG.

BUT SHE RECEIVED 126 PERCENT IN THE PROPOSED 88TH DIS-

TRICT.

F P. O.8or 1'!16
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IF YOU WANT TO SHOT.' POLARIZATION FURTHER,

YOU CAN COMPARE THE PROPOSED 88TH DISTRICT, WHICH IS

SUBSTANTIALLY BLACK, WITH THE PROPOSED 91ST DISTRICT,

WHICH IS VIRTUALLY ALL WHITE. AND THERE WE SEE THAT

BERTHA MAXWELL ONLY GOT 32 PERCENT OF THE VOTE.

AND IF YOU COMPARE 32 PERCENT IN AN ALL-WHITE

DISTRICT WITH L26 PERCENT IN A MOSTLY BLACK DISTRICT, I

CALL THAT SUBSTANTIAL POLARIZATION.

A WHAT I S THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK OF THE

PROPOSED B 8TH DI STRI CT?

A IT IS ABOUT 60 TO 65 PERCENT. THE EXACT

FIGURES ARE IN THE RECORD SOMEPLACE. BUT I DONIT HAVE

THOSE AT MY FINGERTIPS. BUT IT IS OVER 60.

A WHAT IS THE RATIO OR MAKEUP OF THE PROPOSED

91ST DISTRICT?

A IT IS LESS THAN 5 PERCENT BLACK. AGAIN,

THOSE FIGURES ARE IN TTTE RECORD. BUT IT IS APPROXII'{ATEL

THAT

A SO THAT ACCORDING TO THE STUDY THAT YOU DID,

EVEN THOUGH BERTHA MAXWELL WOULD HAVE BEEN RUNNING IN A

DISTRICT I,JHICH ONLY HAD--WHICH HAD 95 PERCENT WHITE

VOTERS, SHE WOULD NEVERTHELESS HAVE RECEIVED 32 PERCENT

OF THE VOTE?

A32PERCENTASCoMPUTEDINTHENoRTHCARoLINA

METHOD. THAT IS CORRECT. THAT IS LAST OF ALL THEo
F P. O. Bor 2!las
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA

CAN D I DATE S, YOU \^J I LL NOT I CE .

IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE WHO

RUNS IN THE 95 PERCENT WHITE DISTRICT AND RECEIVES 32

PERCENT OF THE VOTE IS AN EXAMPLE OF--YOU SAID IILARGEII

IN YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY; A MOMENT AGO YOU SAID IISUB-

STANTIALI'_-RACIAL POLARI ZATION?

YES.

(pnusr. )

DR. ARRINGTON, IN YOUR STUDIES OF POLITICS

GENERALLY IN THE UNITED STATES LEADING UP TO THE GRANTING

oF YOUR PH.D. IN POLITICAL SCIENCE, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH

ME THAT THE LITERATURE TENDS TO INDICATE THAT CANDIDATES

RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, PARTICULARLY AT THE LOWER

LEVELS--AND I DON'T MEAN THAT IILOWERII IN A DEROGATORY

SENSE, BUT SCHOOL BOARDS AND CITY COUNCILS, COUNTY BO

STATE LEGISLATURES--TEND TO SPEND A GOOD DEAL OF THEIR

OWN MONEY WHEN THEY CAMPAIGN?

A YES.

aANDITHATITISoNLYWHENYoUGETToTHEMoRE

SOPHISTICATED OFFICES LIKE CONGRESS AND U. S. SENATE AND

PRESIDENT THAT A CANDIDATE IS ABLE TO ATTRACT LARGE SUMS

OF OTHER PEOPLEIS MONEY?

A YES.

A IN FACT, THE LITERATURE ALSO

CRITICAL, IS IT NOT,*EVEN OF THE UNITED

I S SOME!,JHAT

STATES SENATE25

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BECAUSE HALF OF ITS MEMBERS ARE MULTI_MILLIONAIRES?

A YES; IT IS.

A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IS THAT A POLITICAL FACT

OF LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES--IITHATI' BEING THAT PEOPLE

WHO HAVE PERSONAL FORTUNES AND SEEK PUBLIC OFFICE DONIT

NEED TO RELY ON OTHER PEOPLEIS MONEY TO RUN AND WIN IN

MANY CASES?

A IT DEPENDS UPON THE OFFICE=-IN GENERAL; YES.

A BUT IN GENERAL; YES?

A IN GENERAL; YES.

A THERE IS A CERTAIN RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN

CAMPAIGN EXPENDITURES AND ELECTION RESULTS, IS THERE NOT

A YES.

A DoES THE LITERATURE RELATE THAT PHENOMENA OF

OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM TO RACE?

. A NO. THE LITERATURE DOES NOT, AS A RULE.

A YOUR ANALYSIS AS CONTAINED IN THESE EXHIBITS

IS PURELY A QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS; IS IT NOT?

A YES.

A NOT QUALITATIVE?

A NO.

A YOU DIDNIT LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATES

OR THE ISSUES THAT WERE INVOLVED?

A NO.

A AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, LOOKING AT YOUR

A P. O. Bor 1tr161
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FIRST EXHIBIT-_TABLE 2 AND EXHIBIT NUMBER 6__JUST

OBSERVING THE NUMBERS IN THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN, THE

PERCENTAGES OF THE VOTE THAT THESE VARIOUS CANDIDATES

RECEIVED IN THAT PROPOSED DISTRICT IVHICH WAS 6O OR 65

PERCENT BLACK, WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED AS A POLITICAL

SCIENTIST--AND IF YOU HAD THE TIME AND THE RESOURCES--TO

LOOK AT WHY THE VOTES FOR THE WHITE CANDIDATES SHOT'I SUCH

A SIGNI FICANT--TO USE YOUR TERM, I'SIGNI FICANT SWINGTT--

FROM JOE GRAHAM FOSTER GETTING 93 PERCENT TO PHIL GARRICK

GETTING 15 PERCENT?

YES.

THAT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING QUESTION TO LOOK

INTO; WOULDNTT IT?

YES.

A ISNIT IT ALSO TRUE, DR. ARRINGTON, THAT A

POLITICAL SCIENTIST IS REALLY VERY SUSPECT OF DRAWING

CONCLUSIONS ABOUT PTOPIT,S VOTING HABITS FROM A PURELY

QUANTITATIVE , ANALYTICAL STUDY?

A NO.

A WOULD YOU AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST BE WILLING

TO DRAU] CONCLUSIONS OF FUTURE VOTER ACTIVITY BASED SOLELY

ON QUANTITATIVE ANALYSI S?

A I AM SORRY. WOULD YOU REPEAT IT AGAIN. I

THINK I UNDERSTAND TIIE QUESTION. BUT I-.-

a (tNrrqposlNc) lrT ME MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU.

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LETIS ASSUME, DR. ARRINGTON, THAT MR. HUNTER DECIDES

TO RUN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE IN NORTH CAROLINA. AND HE

RETAINS YOU AS HIS CONSULTANT TO ADVISE HIM AS TO HOW

TO STRUCTURE HIS CAMPAIGN AND WHAT HE SHOULD DO IN THAT

CAMPA I GN.

YOU WOULDN'T .JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THE VOTES IN

THE PARTICULAR DISTRICT, IF IT WAS CONGRESS OR HOUSE

DISTRICT OR THE U. S. SENATE, AND SIT DOWN I,,ITH HIM AND

sAY, 'iWELL, NOW, I CAN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO BECAUSE HERE

IS THE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER

THE LAST ANY NUMBER OF ELECTIONS THAT YOU hIANT TO PICK.II

WOULD YOU DO THAT?

MR. HUNTER: OB.JECTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I WOULD DO MORE THAN THAT

QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS. BUT I WOULD DO THE QUANTITATIVE

ANALYSIS BEFORE I DID NTIVTI-ITNE ELSE.

a

POINT FOR

MIGHT BE

r trcr t ox;

A

a

OPPONENT

BY MR. LEONARD:

CORRECT=-BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A BASIC STARTING

YOU TO ADVISE MR. HUNTER AS TO WHAT THE ISSUES

THAT WOULD APPEAL TO THE VOTERS IN THAT UPCOMI

I SN I T THAT CORRECT?

AMONG OTHER THINGS, THAT IS CORRECT.

AND I SN ' T THAT TRUE WHETHER OR NOT MR. HUNTER

IS A REPUBLICAN, A DEMOCRAT, A WHITE OR A BLACK

F P. O. lor at6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. LEONARD:

(PAUSE. )

MAY I HAVE .JUST A MINUTE

BY MR. LEONARD:

a DR. ARRINGTON, HOW DID YoU ACCOUNT FOR--

EXCUSE ME LIUST ONE MINUTE. THERE ARE NO LAWYERS FROM

THE STATE HERE. AND I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE NORTH CARO-

LINA LAW IS. BUT I THINK THERE IS EVIDENCE ALREADY IN

THE RECORD INTRODUCED BY THE GINGLES PLAINTIFFS THAT

INDICATES THAT CANDIDATES RECEIVE CONTRIBUTIONS UNDER A

CERTAIN DOLLAR AI4OUNT THAT ARE LISTED AS MISCELLANEOUS?

YES.

IN SOME CASES THEY ARE FAIRLY SIGNIFICANT;

ARE THEY NOT?

A I KNOW THE LAW IN THAT MATTER. A CANDIDATE

MAY.LIST--MAY LIST--A CONTRIBUTION BELOI'J $SO.OO AS

''ANONYMOUStt AND MAY IT'TOTCO SUMMARIZE THOSE. CURRENTLY,

rT IS BELOW $f OO. OO. BUT I,N THE TIME PERIoD WHEN I DID

My sruDY--THAT IS, THE ELECTI0N YEARS r78 AND r79--IT

WAS SSO.OO RATHER THAN $IOO.OO.

aDIDYoUMAKESoMEADJUSTMENTINYoURANALYSIS

A YES. IT WAS NOT SO MUCH AN AD.JUSTMENT AS IT

WAS A CAREFUL EXAMINATION OF THE USE OF THAT PARTICULAR

SUBTERFUGE. AND I'1Y JUDGI'1ENT IN THAT MATTER WAS THAT IT

WAS NOT USED--THAT ''ANONYMOUSI' LOOPHOLE I^'AS NOT USED

A P. O. &r 2tlCs
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MORE BY ONE KIND OF CANDIDATE THAN ANOTHER. AND THERE-

FORE, IT DID NOT AFFECT THE OVERALL FINDINGS.

AND WE SHOULD NOTE AGAIN THAT THEY MAY LIST

A coNTRIBUTIoN oF LESS THAN $so.oo. MANY cANDIDATES

CONSCIENTIOUSLY LIST EVERY DIME THEY COLLECT.

MR. LEONARD: .JUST ONE MOMENT, IF THE

COURT PLEASE. I THINK I HAVE JUST ONE MORE QUESTION.

(PAUSE. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A AGAIN, DR. ARRINGTON, HAVE YOU MADE ANY

STUDIES TO THE ISSUES YOU TESTIFIED TO AS THEY WOULD

BE APPLICABLE TO THE STATE AS A WHOLE?

A NO. ALL THE DATA THAT I HAVE EXAMINED WAS

WITH REGARD TO THE COUNTIES THAT I LISTED. THE METROPOLI-

TAN COUNTIES WAS MY MAIN INTEREST.

. MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

MR. HUNTER: I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS ON

REDIRECT

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 4:07 P.M.

BY MR' HUNTER:

aDR.ARRINGToN,INEXHIBITNUMBERToNTABLE3

WHEN COUNSEL WAS CROSS-EXAMINING YOU, IN THE PROPOSED 91ST

DISTRICT THE PERCENT OF 32 PERCENT WAS MENTIONED' THAT

IS NOT 32 PERCENT OF THE VOTERS OF THAT PARTICULAR

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O. Bor rtl6s

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DISTRICT; IS iT?

NO; IT IS NOT. WE FIND THAT IN MULTIPLE

CANDIDATE RACES, VOTERS TEND TO SINGLE SLOT OR BULLET

VOTE MORE THAN IS COMMONLY REALIZED. FOR EXAMPLE, IF

THERE ARE EIGHT CANDIDATES ON THE BALLOT, IN A TYPICAL

PRECINCT THE AVERAGE VOTER WAS VOTING FOR FIVE OR SIX;

SO THAT WHEN YOU DO IT THIS WAY, YOU SAY, IIGEE, SHE GOT

ALMOST--ALMOST A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE WHO WALKED INTO THE

VOTING PLACE VOTED FOR HER.II

BUT THAT I S NOT SO, GIVEN THAT THERE ALL THES

SINGLE SHOTS, IT IS FAR LESS THAN THAT. HOW MUCH LESS,

WE CANNOT KNOW THAT FROM THE FIGURES. IT CANNOT BE

DETERMINED. BUT IT CERTAINLY IS LESS THAN THAT. AND

AGAIN, KEEP II.I MIND SHE CAME IN DEAD LAST OF ALL THE

CANDI DATES.

A DR. ARRINGTON, CAN YOU QUANTIFY FOR THE

IN DOLLAR FIGURES NPPNOXIMATELY WHAT IT WOULD-.ON

AVERAGE FOR A MULTI-MEMBER.CAMPAIGN IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY, HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST TO RUN FOR THE CITY

CIL IN CHARLOTTE AT LARGE VERSUS HOW MUCH IT WOULD

TO RUN FOR THE CITY COUNCIL FROM A SINGLE-MEMBER

D I STR.I CT ?

COURT

THE

COUN-

COS T

.

MR. LEONARD: I OBJECT

AS SPECULATIVE. I THINK THE WITNESS CAN

WHAT HE FOUND. BUT I WI LL OB.J ECT---

TO THAT QUESTI

TESTIFY AS TO

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BY MR. HUNTER:

a (tNrrnposING) gRseo upoN youR sTUDy, CAN yOU

QUANTI FY FOR THE COURT WHAT YOUR STUDY SHOWED AN AVERAGE

COST OF AN AT LARGE ELECTION WAS FOR THE CHARLOTTE CITY

COUNCIL VERSUS WHAT IT WOULD HAVE COST TO RUN IN A

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT FOR THAT SAME ELECTION?

\,UDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY ANSWER THAT

quEsT I oN.

THE WITNESS: FOR AT LARGE CITY COUNCI

IT WAS IN EXCESS OF $7,000. AND FOR THE DTSTRICT RACES,

IT WAS CLOSER TO ABOUT $3,500.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE

QUESTION AS IT WAS REPHRASED AND THE ANSWER IS THAT IT

ADDRESSED THE QUESTION OF WHAT THE AVERAGE WAS THAT THE

DOCTOR DETERMINED TO BE THE ACTUAL FACT IN THE PERIOD

THAT HE STUDIED.

THE WI TNESS :

MR. HUNTER: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MR. LEONARD: I .JUST HAVE ONE

CLARIFI CATION QUESTION.

R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 4:10 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MAYBE I AM CONFUSED BECAUSE I HAVE A GREATER

CAPACITY FOR CONFUSION THAN ANYBODY ELSE HERE. BUT

YES, SIR.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or i'tlas

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.r571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LOOKING AT THE TWO EXHIBITS 6 AND 7, DR. ARRINGTON,

IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT THE NUI,IBERS IN THE RIGHT-HAND--THAT

IS, THE RIGHT-HAND NUMBERS-:I'N EACH ONE OF THESE COLUMNS

IS, THERE IS NEVERTHELESS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEM;

IS THERE NOT? THAT IS, YOU CAN COMPARE THE PERCENTAGE

NUMBERS AMONG THEMSELVES?

A YES.

A AND THAT IS MATHEMATICALLY SOUND?

A YES, SIR.

A SO THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT EXHIBIT NUMBER 7,

TABLE 3--T AM SORRY. IF WE LOOK AT TABLE 2, EXHIBIT 6,

THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP, IS THERE NOT, BETWEEN THE FACT

THAT CANDIDATE GARRICK RECEIVED L5, WHATEVER THAT IS,

AND CANDIDATE FOSTER RECEIVED 93?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

. a AND THAT rt 15 rr I S WHATEVER T IMES 15 THAT', EQUAUS

93?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN THAT IS ROUGHLY

SIX TIMES; ISNIT THAT RIGHT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. LEONARD: I THINK I UNDERSTAND

THAT. I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MR. HUNTER: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUE ST I ONS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

EXAMINATION 4:I2 P.M.

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:

A DR. ARRINGTON, PURSUING THE POINT OF THE

LIMITATIONS OF THIS TYPE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS WITH

RESPECT TO THESE VERY FIGURES AND IN ORDER TO AID US IN

DRAWING INFERENCES FROM WHAT YOU TELL US THE FIGURES

sHow, IS IT NOT--YOU WOULD INOT'CONTEND THAT IT IS A

NECESSARY INFERENCE THAT BECAUSE IN AN ELECTION WHICH WA

RUN IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT WITH THE PECULIAR DYNAMIC

OF THE MULTI-MEMBER RACE INCLUDING THE NUMBER OF CANDI-

DATES THAT HAVE TO BE IN THERE, CERTAINLY THOSE CANDI-

DATES ALSO HAPPENED TO GET A CERTAIN NUMBER OF VOTES IN

A NON-DISTRICT--A DISTRICT WHICH IS ONLY A POSSIBLE

DISTRICT; THAT IF THE NEXT TIME AROUND WITH THE HYPOTHE-

SIZED DISTRICT A REALITY, THAT NECESSARILY IF YOU PUT

THOSE SAME CANDIDATES BACK THE RESULT WOULD BE THAT

WHICH THESE RAW FIGURES SHOW?

A IN FACT, YOUR HONOR, IT WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE

THE SAME. MAY I EXPLAIN WHY?

A WELL, I THiNK I UNDERS-TAND WHY, BUT IN A WAY

I AM SURE I CANNOT ARTICULATE AS WELL AS I WOULD LIKE TO

HAVE YOU ARTICULATE IT FOR ME.

ATHEDYNAMIcSoFAoNE-oN_oNEELECTIoNAREVER

DIFFERENT FROM THE DYNAMICS OF A MULTIPLE CANDIDATE RACE.

T

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I N TERMS OF THE F IGURES I HAVE PRESENITED HERE, i T I S

MY OPINION THAT I HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY UNDERSTATED THE

ADVANTAGE OF A BL,\CK CANDIDATE RUNNING ONE-ON-ONE IN

THESE PROPOSED DISTRICTS.

BUT THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD, TAKING JUST

THIS DATA WHICH USES OR HYPOTHESIZES ANOTHER DISTRICT

THAN THAT WHICH ACTUALLY EXISTED AND ANOTHER TYPE RACE

WITH ALL THE CHANGED DYNAMICS OF DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHICAL

AERAS TO BE COVERED, DIFFERENT PEOPLE TO BE FACED, TO

MAKE ANY ASSUMPTION THAT EVEN IF YOU PUT THE SAME CANDI-

DATES BACK INTO THE RACE AND THE NEW ALIGNMENT THAT

THE FIGURES THAT COME OUT I.IER5 THAT REFLECT THE FACT THA

CANDIDATE 'IXTI GOT A CERTAIN NUMBER OF VOTES IN A NON-

DISTRICT, THAT IN A RACE IN THAT DISTRICT THAT CANDIDATE

WOULD GET TIiOSE VOTES? YOU THINK OR YOUR OPINION IS

THAT THAT CANDIDATE 
'I 

O ONE-ON'ONE SITUATION WOULD BE

BETTER OFF IN TERMS OF GETTING INTO A MORE HEAVILY BLACK

MAJORITY DISTRICT?

YES, YOUR HONOR.

A BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIABLES INVOLVING

SHI FTING DYNAMICS TIIAT MAKE IT, I SUPPOSE, A LITTLE

QUEASY TO DRAW TOO MUCH OF AN INFEREI'JCE FROM THIS

PARTICULARLY QUANTiTATIVE ANALYSIS ABOUT HOW BERTHA

MAXWELL WOULD INDEED FARE IF SHE DID INDEED RUN I.IEXI'TIM

IN A DISTRICT. I.'/E D.ONIT KNOW WHAT WOULD BE THE

F P. O. Bor 2tt6ll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

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PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SlTUATION--HOW MANY BLACK CANDIDATES OPPOSED HER,

WHETHER SOME PARTICULAR BRAVE WHITE CANDIDATE RAN AGAINS

HER. ALL OF THAT I5 SIMPLY BEYOND US; ISNIT IT?

A YES, SIR; IT IS. YES; IT IS, YOUR HONCR.

JUDGE DUPREE: AND SHE R,AN AFTER CORN-

BREAD MAXWELL HAD LEFT UNC-CHARLOTTE. AND SO SHE DIDNIT

GET THE ASSOCIATIVE EFFECT OF THAT; DID SHE?

THE WITNESS:

MR. LEONARD:

QUESTIONS, YOUR HONoR.

NO, SIR; SHE DIDNIT.

I HAVE NO FURTHER

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DR.

ARR I NGTON.

(wrruess EXcusED. )

MS. WINNER: I DONI T HAVE ANY OTHER

WITNESSES HERE TODAY, EXCEPT THAT I CAN TAKE A MOMENT

AND. OFFER INTO EVIDE}JCE THE DESIGNATED PORTIONS OF

INTERROGATORIES WHICH I HAVE READY. I AM OFFERING ALL

OF THE ONES THAT ARE LISTEq EXCEPT FOR NIJMBiC. 27 AND

NUMBER 37.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : WHY DON I T WE DO THAT AND

TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY ALSO TO DO SOMETHING THAT I WANTED

TO HAVE DONE BEFORE \//E CONCLUDED, WHICI-I IS TO CHECK WITH

THE CLERK HERE AND SEE WHAT HER RECORDS SHOW ABOUT THOSE

EXHIBITS WHICH HAVE BEEN ADMITTED? DID I UNDERSTAND

THAT YOU HAVE FURTHER EXHIBITS?

A P. O. &r 2ttB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MS. WINNER: THE CLERK HAS BEEN

NICE ENOUGH TO MAKE A LIST FOR ME OF THOSE T.,HICH HAVE

BEEN ADMITTED. I INTENDED TONIGHT TO GO THROUGH MY LIST

OF EXHIBITS SO THAT I COULD MAKE SURE TO CLEAN tJP THE

RECORD IN THE MORNING.

JUDCE PHILLIPS: WELL, MAYBE WE HAD BETTE

DEFER THAT UNTIL YOU HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO DO THAT.

BEFORE WE LEAVE, WE DO WANT TO VERIFY ON BOTH SIDES---

MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I WILL

OFFER FIRST THING IN THE MORNING--I HAVE PREPARED THE

PORTIONS OF THE ANSTVERS THAT I WANT TO PUT INTO EVIDENCE

AS WELL AS THE PORTIONS OF THE DEPOSITIONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. DO WE NEED

TO ADMIT ANYTHING HERE THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED THAT WE

HAVENI T ADMITTED?

.JUDGE BRI TT.:

THE CLERK:

SHE L'UST OFFERED---

(INTERPoSING) CVeRYTHING

IS ADMITTED FOR THURSDAY.

JUDGE BRITT: ---THE DES I GI'IATED

P LEAD I NGS .

JUDGE PHiLLIPS: WELL, IF THERE IS NO

OBLIECTION TO THE DESIGNATED PLEADINGS I.,ITHIN THE

I NTERROGATOR I ES ?

MR. LEONARD: THERE ARE TWO OB.JECTIONS

WHICH WE HAVE TO WHAT IS DOCUMENT NUMBER 27.

F P. O. &r 2tlGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.JUDGE DUPR:E: SHE DIDNIT INTRODUCE

THAT AND 3I.

MR. LEONARD: OKAY. I AM SORRY. WE

DONIT HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS TO THE OTHERS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, THOSE PC)RTION OF

THE PLEADINGS AND TI-IE INTERROGATORi=S JUST OFFERED ARE

ADMITTED WITHOUT OB.JECTION.

(pTeAOINGS AND INTERPTOGATORIES I^,EP.E

RECE IVED IN EVI DENCE . )

IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE CAN DO?

(NO BTSPONSE. )

WELL, LETIS AD.JOURN COURT UNTIL TOMORROW

MORNING AT 9:OO OICLOCK.

(THT PROCEEDING WAS ADJOURNED AT 4:20 P.M., T

RECONVENE AT 9:00 A.M.':ON FRIDAY, AUGUST 29,

1983.)

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CERTIFICATE

I, .JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT

THE PRECEDING PAGES REPRESENT A

TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE

PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH

CAROLINA, ON THURSDAY, *JULY 28, 198r.

THIS, THE 13TH DAY OF AUGUST, 1981.

B. BUSH, CVR

FFICIAL COURT REPORTER

F P. O. g.r 2tlcl
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