Stipulation of Class Action

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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.90S5

779.3619 876.1571

PHOEN|X, ARtZOr.tA

IN THE UNITED STATES

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT

DISTRICT

OF NORTH CAROLINA

IONRALEIGH DIVIS

RALPH GINGLES, ET..AL., I

RUFUS EDMISTEN , ETC.,
ET AL.,

ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL.

V.

JAMES B. HUNT, .JR., ETC.,
ET AL.,

JOHN J. CAVANAGH, EI AL.

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8t-201-crv-5

81-1066-CrV-5

82-545-C rV-5

ALEX K. BROCK, ETC.,
ET AL. ,

DEFENDANTS.

TR IAL . BEFORE

THE HONORAB LE .J . D I CKSON

THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T.

THE HONORABLE W. EARL

PHILLIPS

DUPREE., JR.

BRITT

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AT RALEIGH: TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, I983

VOLUME 7 OF 8

PAGES 1089 THROUGH ,1 ] 1 I

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

P}ioENIX, ARIZoi.IA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-.571
PHOENIX, ARlZOt,lA

APPEARANCES

ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

LESL I E J. WINNER, ESQU I RE

CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS T FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA

951 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD

CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202

ARTHUR .J. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER I KENERLY

]09 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144

ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQUIRE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402

LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUITE 2O3O
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019

ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

' 
"lERR 

I S LEONARDT.. ESQU I RE

KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREET, N.W.
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006

JAMES WALLACE, JR ., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PI|oENIX, ARIZONA

TABLE OF CONTENTS

WITNESSES D I RECT CROSS RED I RECT RECROSS EXAM

MARSHALL RAUCH

BY MS. GU IN I ER

BY MR. LEONARD

BY JUDGE DUPREE

DANIEL T. LILLEY

1096*r123

ttzS-1129

1129-r111

BY MR. LEONARD 11,1-1I4I

BY MR. HUNTER 11'+1-1158

LOU I SE S. BRENNAN

By MR. LEONARD 1158-1181 1198-1200

BY MS. GUINIER

BY JUDGE PHI LL I PS

VERNON MALONE

1181-1197

1200-1201

BY,MR. LEONARDl20l-1211 L222

BY MS. GUINIER 1211_L222

BY .JUDGE DUPREE

MALACHI .J. GREEN

t222-t223

By MR. LEONARD 1.223-L250 L27 0-127 7

BY MS. WINNER

BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS

r25A -127 0 1 27 7 -127 9

. 1279-t280

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PRECTSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OfFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876..571
P}loENIX, ARlZOl.tA

TABLE OF CONTENTS(COruTINUED)

W I TNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

C LEMENT

EXAM

ARTHUR JOHN tQt^lA8-Q.

BY MR. LEONARD

BY MS. WINNER

ALLEN ADAMS

BY MR. LEONARD

1280-1298

L298-1299

1100-13r0

EXHIBITS

NUMBER

DE FENDANT

DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE I VED

24 NEWSPAPER AD

18 CURRICULUM VITAE - CLEMENT
43 LETTER FROM MR. GRIFFIN

45 LOCAL BILL

1174
1280
1198

1167

tL7 5

r281
1199

1175

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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 9:OO A.M.

THIS CAUSE CAME ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL ON

TUESDAY, AUGUST 2, 1983, AT RALEIGH,

NORTH CAROLINA.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: MIGHT I OPEN THE PRO-

CEEDINGS BY ASKING COUNSEL TO GIVE US THEIR BEST ESTIMATE AS

OF TH I S T II.,IE OF THE L I KELY CONCLUS ION OF THI S TR IAL ?

MR. LEONARD: MY BEST ESTIMATE IS THAT

WE WILL FINISH 8Y THE END OF THE DAY TOMORROW.

JUDGE BRITT: THAT YOU WILL FINISH YOUR

EV I DENCE ?

MR. LEONARD; YES, SIR.

. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WiAT IS YOUR PROJECTION,

MS. WINNER, ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME YOU ARE GOING TO NEED, IF

ANY?

MS. I^JINNER: BETWEEN NONE AND ONE HOUR

JUDGE PHILLIPS: HAVING COME THIS FAR

DOTJN THE TRAIL, WE DON'T WANT TO GET INTO ANY RUSH UP MODE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE END OF THE DAY IS A VERY GOOD TIME

TO BRING A HALF TO THE PROCEEDINGS. SO TO THE EXTENT-_

I,,/ITHOUT DOING ANY VIOLENCE TO YOUR PLANS OR.JEOPARDIZING

THE PRESENTATION, WE COULD MOVE TO A WIND UP TOMORROW. IT

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFFTCE, RArEtcH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.1571

PI|oENIX, ARIZONAF 2, O. lq ial.il
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PIIOENIX. ARIZONA

WOULD BE IN THE MIND OF THE COURT A VERY GOOD THING TO DO.

MS. WINNER: MAY I ASK A QUESTION?

I T I,'JAS MY INTERPRETAT ION OF THE RESPONSE FROM MR. LEONARD

THAT WE DO NOT ANTICIPATE THAT WE WILL MAKE CLOSING ARGUMENT

AT THIS TIME,. BUT WE hIILL DELAY THAT UNTIL AFTER BRIEFING?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THAT IS OUR PRESENT

DISPOSITION, DEPENDING UPON WHEN WE WIND UP. THERE REMAINS

A POSSIBILITY TO ME THAT WE MIGHT WANT POSSIBLY NO MORE THAN

10 OR 15 MINUTES OF SUMMATION TO JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK

SOME OF YOUR EVIDENCE DID FOR YOU WHILE IT IS FRESH ON

EVERYBODY I S MIND.

BUT I THINK-.MY OI,.JN INFORMATION IS THAT THAT IS

A MATTER THAT IS NOT CRITICAL AND WE WOULD DO THAT ONLY IF

WE HAD A LITTLE TIME LEFT OVER, BECAUSE WHEI'J WE BREAK HERE

WE ARE ALL GOING OUR OWN I.IAY FOR A I.IHILE. AND I CAN SEE HOW

WITH RESPECT TO SOME OF THE EVIDENCE IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO

ME AND I AM SURE TO MY COLLEAGUES TO HAVE YOU BRING TO BEAR

YOUR EFFORT TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT.

WE WILL BASICALLY WIND UP AND LEAVE WHEN THE

EVIDENCE IS OVER.

MS. WINNER:

(wHEREUPON,

THANK YOU.

MAR SHALL

THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT

STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER

RAUCH

THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED THE

AS FOLLOWS: )

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36r9 876.4571

PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 9:05 A.M.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A GOOD MORNING, SEANTOR. I BELIEVE THE LAST

QUESTION THAT.I HAD ASKED YOU PRIOR TO OUR RECESS YESTERDAY

WAS WHETHER YOU WERE ADVISED BY THE STAFF OR COUNSEL IF THEY

WERE LOOKING AT A DISTRICT IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY THAT WAS

APPROXIMATELY 65 PERCENT BLACK.

A AND I BELIEVE I SAID I REMEMBER SOMEBODY TALKING

ABOUT MECKLENBURG COUNTY THAT WAY.

A THE DECISION NOT TO DIVIDE MECKLENBURG INTO

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS NOT BASED, HOWEVER, ON A DISTAST

FOR A PART I CULAR PLAN; I.IAS I T ?

A THERE WAS REALLY NO DISCUSSION ON MECKLENBURG

couNTY THAT WAY. I REMEMBER NO MOTIONS, NO PROS OR CONS

BY MEMBERS OONCERNING THAT. I DO *U"'U'* SOME DISCUSSION

ABOUT POSSIBLY BREAKING MECKLENBURG. BUT THAT MIGHT HAVE

BEEN OUT OF COMMITTEE. BUT THERE WERE NO MOTIONS. THERE

WAS NO SERIOUS WORK ON THAT.

A AND THE DECISION NOT TO DIVIDE UP MECKLENBURG

COUNTY WAS AN AFFIRMATIVE DECISION BECAUSE IT WAS NOT

NECESSARY TO COMPLY WITH SECTION 5 OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT?

A NO. THERE WERE NO DECISIONS ON MECKLENBURG

COUNTY.

MS. GUINIER: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNES

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PLEASE, YOUR HONOR?

JUDGE PH I LL I PS:

BY MS. GUINIER:

GO AHEAD.

A' I AM HANDING YOU A COPY OF A DEPOSITION THAT YOU

GAVE IN THIS CASE. COULD YOU PLEASE TURN TO PAGE 90 OF THAT

DEPOSITION? WOULD YOU PLEASE READ ALOUD STARTING WITH LINE

2 TO THE TOP OF PAGE 9I, LINE 2?

A LINE 2:

''. .OR NOT TO TAKE MECKLENBURG COUNTY AS A

COVERED COUNTY AND TREAT IT AND GIVE IT A

SEPARATE DI STRI CT. ,I

A EXCUSE ME, SENATOR. LINE 2, I BELIEVE, STARTS

W I TH ''D I D YOU HAVE ANY ADV I CE. II

A OKAY. II. . . D I D YOU HAVE ANY ADV I CE ON THE

I SSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO TAKE MECKLENBURG

COUNTY AS A CO.VERED COUNiV AND TREAT IT AND GIVE

IT A SEPARATE DISTRICT?'I

'I. .I DON 'T THINK. WE WERE TOLD TO DO THAT.II

II. .YOU WERE NOT TOLD TO DO THAT?II

II. .I DON IT THINK IT WAS SL'GGESTED.II

'r. .BUT THESE ARE YOUR DECISIONS, ARENTT THEY?

THESE AREN I T LEGAL DEC I S IONS. II

rt. . WE COULD HAVE DONE I T. I'

II. .RIGHT. BUT YOU NEGLECTED TO DO IT?II

I'. . WE CHOSE NOT TO DO I T . 'I

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICT, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976-157l.

PIIoENIX, ARIZONA

'I. .SO YOU MADE AN AFFIRMATIVE DECISION NOT

TO DO IT?II

r. . .YES.n

''. .WHAT WAS THE BASIS UPON WHICH THAT AFFIRMA-

TIVE DECISION NOT TO DO IT WAS MADE?II

'I. .IT WASN'T NECESSARY.II

'' . . IT WASN IT NECESSARY TO COMPLY l/'/ITH THE

SECT ION 5 REQU I REMENT ?II

'I. .THAT IS CORRECT.II

I'. .WAS ANY DISCUSSION GIVEN TO OTHER SECTIONS

OF THE VOTING RIGHTS OR THE FIFTEENTH AMENDMENT

AT THAT T I ME ?II

'r. .NO; BUT WE WERE AWARE OF THE MANDATE.TT

". .you WERE AWARE OF THE SUBMERGENCE QUESTION?'

il. . YES. rl

a rHANK YOU, SENATOR. NOW, YESTERDAY |.JHEN YOU

TESTIFIED, I BELIEVE YOU SAID YOU PERSONALLY PREFERRED

S I NGLE MEMBER D I STR I CTS, I S THA.T CORRECT ?

A I WOULD LIKE TO RUN IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT;

YES.

A AND DO YOU THINK BLACKS WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF

THEY HAD TO--IF THEY WERE DIVIDED INTO A SENATE DISTRICT

WHERE A MAJORITY OF THE VOTERS WERE BLACK?

A BETTER OFF FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING ELECTED OR

BETTER OFF FOR REPRESENTING PEOPLE?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PIloENIX. ARIZONA

A WHETHER--LET IS START WITH THE FIRST QUESTION

FIRST. DO YOU THINK BLACK CANDIDATES WOULD HAVE A BETTER

CHANCE GETTING ELECTED?

A NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE A SINGLE SHOT CAN PUT A

CANDIDATE IN IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT QUITE EASILY.

A AND IN FACT, TF BLACK CANDIDATES OR BLACK PEOPLE

I^JANT TO VOTE FOR A BLACK CAND I DATE IN A MULT I -MEMBER DI STR I C

IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY THAT THEY SINGLE SHOOT?

A IT IS POSS I BLE. SCHOOL TEACHERS DO IT. LOTS OF

PEOPLE DO IT.

A AND IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY

OFTEN HAS TO SINGLE SHOOT IN ORDER TO GET A BLACK CANDIDATE

E LECT ED ?

A SOMETIMES IT CAN BE DONE, AND ADVANTAGEOUSLY.

a OKAY. MY QUESTION IS: D.O YOU THINK THAT BLACKS

WOULD HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A CANDIDATE OF

THEIR CHOICE IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT WHERE BLACKS WERE

A MAJORITY OF THE VOTERS IN THAT DISTRICT?

A PLEASE GIVE ME THAT AGAIN.

A DO YOU THINK THAT BLACKS WOULD HAVE A BETTER

OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A CANDIDATE OF THEIR CHOICE IF BLACKS

WERE A VOTING MAJORITY IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT?

A I IMAGINE THEY MIGHT HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY

THAT WAY.

A AND IN FACT, YOU BELIEVE THAT SINGLE MEMBER

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l ArN oFFtCE, RALE|GH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76-.571
PtloENtX, AttZOfrA

DISTRICTS WOULD STRENGTHEN THE ABILITY OF BLACK CITIZENS

TO ELECT A CANDIDATE OF THEIR CHOICE?

A NOT NECESSAR I LY. I T VERY VJELL M I GHT .

a coulD You ruRN To PAGE 23 OF THAT DEPOSITION,

PLEASE? STARTING WITH LINE--AND PERHAPS YOUR LINES ARE

DIFFERENT THAN THE ONES ON THE COPY.

A I SEE THE LINES NOW.

A OKAY. STARTING WITH LINE 4, COULD YOU READ ALOUD

THE QUESTION, "IF YOU HAVE 75,000 BLACK PEOPLE,rr AND THEN

GO DOWN TO LINE 16?

A I'. .IF YOU HAD 75,OOO BLACK PEOPLE AND PUT

THEM INTO A DISTRICT THAT WAS, SAY, 500,000 WHITE

PEOPLE, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WOULD AFFECT THEIR

ABILITY TO REPRESENT A CANDIDATE-_TO ELECT A

CAND I DATE OF THE I R CHO I CE ?II

,I. .THEY WOULD BE U""* OFF IF THEY HAD THE

DTSTRICT OF 75,000 BLACKS OUT OF A TOTAL OF It7.

I WOULD CERTAINLY AGREE IT CAN BE DONE.''

n. .so You woulD AGREE THAT IT CAN BE DONE, lT

WOULD BE BETTER TO LET THEM ELECT A CANDIDATE OF

THEIR CHOICE?It

''. . IT CERTAINLY I.IOULD STRENGTHEN THEIR ABILITY

TO ELECT A CANDIDATE WITHOUT A DOUBT.II

A AND THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS, WERE THEY NOT, SENATOR?

A I IMAGINE THEY WERE; YES. HAVE I SAID SOMETHING

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.a571

PIioENIX, ARtZOf.tA

D I FFERENT NOW?

a Now, Do you AGREE THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF .iUSTlCE,

COI.JCLUS ION THAT MULT I -MEMBER DI STR ICT SUBMERGE CONCENTRA-

TIONS OF MINORITIES?

A A SMALL MINORITY CAN BE SUBMERGED IN A LARGE

MULT I _MEMBER DI STR I CT.

A AND THAT WOULD BE TRUE OF RACIAL MINORITIES?

A ANY MINORITY.

A INCLUDING RACIAL MINORITIES?

A CERTAINLY

A AND MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WOULD TEND TO SUBMERGE

BLACKS IN MECKLENBRUG COUNTY; ISNIT THAT TRUE?

A YES. BUT FRED ALEXANDER WAS ELECTED FROM

MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

A OTHER THAN THE ELECTION OF FRED ALEXANDER, WOULD

YOU AGREE THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS HAVE TENDED TO SUB-

MERGE BLACKS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WOULD SUBMERGE THE BLACKS;

YES.

A NOL,J, YOU DID NOT ASK ANY MEMBER OF YOUR STAFF

WHERE THE MA.JORITY BLACK SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS MIGHT BE

DRAWN THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA; DID YOU?

A I DONIT KNOW IF I ASKED THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION OR

NOT .

a You DoNrT REMEMBER IT?

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICT, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOEN|X, ARTZONA

A I REALLY DONIT. YOU ARE GOING BACK ABOUT TWO

YEARS ON ME.

A AND THE SENATE COMMITTEE DID NOT CONSIDER IN

FACT REDISTRICTING SPECIAL SESSION--THAT IS, THE SESSION

THAT BEGAN IN dANUARY_-THE TENDENCY OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT

TO SUBMERGE RACIAL MINORITIES OUTSIDE OF THE COVERED COUNTIE

IS THAT CORRECT?

A AS I RECALL, WE WERE WORKING UNDER AN ESTABLISHED

WRITTEN CRITERIA. I BELIEVE ONE OF THE EIGHT OR NINE POINTS

IN THAT hJAS SPECIFICALLY NOT TO SUBMERGE OR DISCRIMINATE

AGAINST MINORITIES.

A AND DI D YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO APPLY THAT

CRITERIA ACROSS THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?

A YES.

A AND DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO FIND OUT WHERE

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS C9ULD BE DRAWN ACROSS THE STATE OF

NORTH CAROLINA?

A I CAN I T REMEMBER DOI'NG THAT PERSONALLY. BUT I

DO REMEMBER APPOINTING AS MANY AS THREE SUBCOMMITTEES AT

ONE TIME TO WORK ON VARIOUS MAPS.

a DID YOU EVER APPOINT A SUBCOMMITTEE TO WORK ON

A MAP OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS ACROSS THE STATE?

A NO, BECAUSE A MOTION WAS MADE, SECONDED TO

APPOINT A SUBCOMMITTEE FOR THE CHAIRMAN_-SENATOR MILLS

ON A PARTICULAR DATE--I COULD TELL YOU THE DATE IF YOU WANT

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

Pl'ioENrx, ARtzotrA

IT--MADE A MOTION FOR TIJE CHAIRMAN TO APPOINT A COMMITTEE

TO DEVELOP SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. AND THAT MOTION FAILED.

A AND AS A RESULT OF THAT MOTION FAILING, THERE

WAS NO EFFORT TO CONSIDER THE EFFECT OF MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICT

ACROSS THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA ON RACIAL MINORITY?

A

COMMITTEE

WOULD HAVE

SUBMITTED

THERE WAS NO FURTHER MOTION MADE. THERE WAS NO

SPECIFICALLY APPOINTED TO DO IT. BUT IT CERTAINLY

IT?

A THAT MAP WAS CERTAINLY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED AND

A MOTION l./AS MADE, SECONDED, 
'orro* 

voTED oN AND DEFEATED.

AND AFTER THE MOTION TO CONSIDER THAT MAP WAS

DEFEATED, WHAT FURTHER CONSIDERATION WAS GIVEN TO THAT MAP?

A SOMEBODY MIGHT. HAVE CONTINUED TO WORK ON IT. I

DONIT RECALL. I HAVE TO ADMIT I DID NOT APPOINT A COMMITTEE

BECAUSE AS I POINTED OUT TO YOU, A SINGLE MEMBER MAP WAS

SUBMITTED, MOTION MADE, DEFEATED. A MOTION BY SENATOR

MILLS WAS MADE FOR THE CHAIR TO APPOINT A SUBCOMMITTEE OF

THREE PEOPLE TO WORK ON A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT; MOTION

MADE, SECONDED AND FAILED.

ASOAFTERTHATMOTIONFAILED,MYQUESTIONIS:DID

SENATE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE, WHICH YOU CHAIR, GIVE

FURTHER CONSIDERATION TO THE TENDENCY OF MULTI-MEMBER

a

BEEN PERMISSIBLE, AND IN FACT, WE HAD SUCH A MAP

BY SENATOR FRYE.

AND THAT MAP WAS NOT SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED; WAS

THE

ANY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-.571
PHOENIX, ARIZOtIAt O- ld talao

lJ i-h,r tae.dl c.roati. zttrt

DISTRICTS OUTSIDE OF THE COVERED COUNTIES TO SUBMERGE

RACIAL MINORITIES?

A THERE WERE NO FURTHER MOTIONS ON THE SUBJECT.

THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION ON THAT SUB.JECT IN THE COMMITTEE.

a so. THE ANSWER TO MY QUEST ION I S rrNorr?

A I WOULDN IT SAY THAT, BECAUSE THERE WERE MANY

PEOPLE ON THAT COMMITTEE AND WHAT THEY SPOKE ABOUT AND DID

oUTSIDE THE COMMITTEE, THERE I S NO WAY I COULD ANSI.''ER.

A IN TERMS OF THE FORMAL COMMITTEE MEETING, THE

ANSWER TO MY qUESTION IS rrNorr"

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A WE HAVE SPOKEN SEVERAL TIMES OF SENATOR FRYETS

PRESENTATION OF A MAP OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. THAT MAP

T^/AS IN FACT PRESENTED TO THE FULL COMMITTEE AFTER THE PUBLIC

HEARING; IS THAT CORRECT

.A THAT I S CORRECT . I BEL I EVE IT I^IAS BROUGHT UP AT

THE PUBLIC HEARING AND 
'N'* 

SENATOR FRYE MADE A MOTION AT

OUR MEETING. AND I WOULD APPRECIATE BEING ABLE TO EXPLAIN

SOMETHING AT THIS POINT.

YESTERDAY I --_

a (INTERPOSING) EXCUSE ME, SENATOR. I BELIEVE YOU

HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION.

DID YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER EXPLANATION ON A PARTI-

CULAR QUEST ION?

A NO, MATAM.



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PItoENIX, ARIZONA

a THANK YOU.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS:

THE WITNESS:

LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING, JUDGE?

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

QUESTION JUST ASKED YOU?

THE WITNESS:

JUDGE PH I LLI PS:

DOES THAT OFFER FURTHER--

( TTTERPoS ING) I WoULD

EXPLANATION OF THE

NO, SIR.

WELL, SHE HAS ASKED YOU

A QUESTION. YOU ANSWERED 1T, AND THAT IS ALL YOU ARE

REQUTRED TO DO.

THE WI TNESS:

BY MS. GU INI ER:

THANK YOU.

A NOW, WHEN SENATOR FRYE PRESENTED THAT MAP TO THE

COMMITTEE, HE INDICATED THAT THERE HAD BEEN VERY STRONG

SENTIMENT EXPRESSED AT THE PUBLIC HEARING FOR A SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICT PLAN ACROSS fnf Srnfr; ISNrT THAT CORRECT?

A HE INDICATED THAT THERE WAS STRONG SENTIMENT FOR

THE PLAN. I DON'T RECALL HIM SAYING THAT THE STRONG SENTI-

MENT CAME FROM ALL OVER THE STATE. HE WANTED THE SINGLE

MEMBER PLAN ALL OVER THE STATE, AND THERE I^JAS STRONG

SENTIMENT FOR THAT.

THAT PLAN WAS THE NORTH CAROLINA ASSOCIATION OF

BLACK LAI,'YER IS PLAN. IT WAS FOR A 5O SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT

MADE ON FEBRUARY 9TH, MOTION MADE, SECONDED AND FAILED.

A AND IN FACT, THERE WAS STRONG SENTIMENT EXPRESSEDo
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PFECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876..571
PIOENIX, ARIZC{A

AT THE PUBLIC HEARING FOR A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT PLAN

ACROSS THE STATE?

A YES. ANY ONE PERSON CAN RAISE STRONG SENTIMENT.

TEN PEOPLE CAN RAISE STRONG SENTIMENT. THERE I^,AS STRONG

SENTIMENT FOR IT. I DONIT REMEMBER WHETHER THERE WAS ONE

OR TEN PEOPLE FOR IT.

A IN FACT, YESTERDAY WHEN I ASKED YOU--I GAVE YOU

THE NAMES OF A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED. YOU SAID

THAT THEY HAD IN FACT TESTIFIED IN FAVOR OF A SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICT

A YOU MENTIONED TWO OR THREE, AND I THINK I AGREED.

A AND WAS THERE MORE THAN THOSE TWO OR THREE THAT

I SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED?

A I DONIT REMEMBER. AND I COULD TELL YOU WHY I

DONTT REMEMBER. WILL THAT BE ALL RIGHT?

A YOU MAY ANSWER ANY qUrSrrON THAT YOUR COUNSEL

ASKS ON REDIRECT. AT THIS POINT YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY

QUESTION.

A THANK YOU, MAIAM.

A WERE YOU GIVEN ANY INFORMATION THAT THE PLAN OF

SENATOR FRYE'S THAT HE PRESENTED TO THE COMMITTEE COULD NOT

HAVE BEEN ADOPTED BY THE COMMITTEE?

A PLEASE SAY THAT AGAIN.

A DO YOU KNOW ANY REASON WHY THE PLAN THAT SENATOR

FRYE HAD PRESENTED TO THE COMMITTEE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ADOPTED 8Y THE COMMITTEE?

A NO, MA'AM. IT WAS A GOOD PLAN. IT WAS IN ORDER.

A AND THIS WAS THE PLAN THAT YOU TESTIFIED THAT HAD

BEEN MOVED BY SENATOR FRYE TO BE CONSIDERED BY A WORKING

COMMITTEE, IS THAT CORRECT?

A THAT I. S CORRECT .

A AND THE MOTION TO CONSIDER THIS PLAN IN

COMMITTEE SUBSEQUENTLY FAILED?

A THE MOTION TO CONSIDER THE PLAN FAILED. THAT

I S CORRECT.

A NOW, SUBSEQUENTLY IN APRIL WHEN THE SENATE CAME

BACK AGAIN TO REAPPORTION ITSELF, SENATOR BALLENGER PRE-

SENTED A MAP OF A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT STATEWIDE; IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A YES. ON APRIL 27TH, AFTER THE SUBCOMMITTEE MET

AT 8:30, THE FULL COMMITT.EE MET AT ],0:t', SENATOR BALLANGER

OFFERED A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT PLAN AND FAILED. SENATOR

MILLS AGAIN OFFERED HIS IDEA OF A SUBCOMMITTEE TO DEVELOP

A SINGLE MEMBER PLAN, AND IT FAILED.

A AND IN FACT, THE MOTION TO TABLE THE BALLENGER

PLAN WAS SECONDED BY SENATOR MONK HARRINGTON; IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A I DONIT HAVE THAT IN MY NOTES. IF YOU SAY SO, I

AM SURE IT IS.

A NOW, GOING BACK TO FEBRUARY, AFTER THE DEPARTMENT

F P, O. ld 2l1ts
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 d76-1571

Pi{OENlX, ARlZOl.lA

OF JUST]CE HAD OBJECTED TO THE FIRST SESSION REAPPORTIONMEN

PLAN, IN ADDITION TO PRESENTING HIS PLAN FOR SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS STATEWIDE, SENATOR FRYE MADE A MOTION TO DRAW A

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST PORTION OF THE STATE

WITH A 58 PERCENT BLACK POPULATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

A PROBABLY. I DONIT REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT

PROBABLY.

A YOU DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING THAT IS INCONSISTENT

WITH THAT?

A I DO REMEMBER THE.OLD DISTRICT ONE AND THE NEED

FOR A 55 PERCENT BLACK DISTRICT.

A WHEN YOU REFERRING TO THE OLD DISTRICT ONE, THAT

IS WHAT EVENTUALLY BECAME SENATE DISTRICT 2; IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND SENATOR F1YE HAD MAD; A MOTION TO DRAW A

DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST THAT WOULD BE 58 PERCENT BLACK; IS

THAT CORRECT ?

A I REALLY CANIT REMEMBER THAT EXACTLY. BUT I

REMEMBER THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT SUB.JECT AND THE CHANGE

THAT EVENTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN THAT AREA.

A AND IN FACT, AT THE SUGGESTION OF COUNSEL,

SENATOR FRYE'S MOTION I,JAS AMENDED TO CREATE A POPULATION--

EXCUSE ME--A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST THAT

WAS 55 PERCENT BLACK?

,. O. id 2tt..
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZON^

A YES. WE ENDED UP I^,I TH A 55 PERCENT DI STP.I CT.

A AT THE TII4E HOI.JEVER,. IN THE FEBRUARY SESSION,

A.FTER SENATCR FRYE MADE HIS MOTION, HIS I,IOTION FAI LED IN

COI1MITTEE,, IS THAT CORP.ECT?

A. I DONIT SPECIFICALLY REMEi[4BEP. THE MOTIONS THAT

YOU ARE REPERRING TO. III'1 NOT SAYING THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN,

BUT I DONIT SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER THAT.

A' YOU DO REMEMBER, HOWEVER, THAT AS A RESULT OF THE

FEBP.UAF:Y SESSION OF THE SENATE, THAT THE PLAN THAT THE

SENATE CAI.TE UP 1.{I TH HAD A 57 .7, PERCENT BLACK DI STRI CT IN THE

NOT?.THEAS T ?

A YES.

A TH I S WAS DESP I TE SENATOR FP.YE I S MOT I ONS TO CP.EATE

DISTRICTS WITH 5B PERCENT BI-ACK POPULATION AND 55 PERCENT

BLACK POPULATION, IS THAT CORRECT?

A. THATIS CORRECT. ON APRIL 26 IN OUR I.IEETING I.IE

CHANGED THAT DI STRI CT TWO- -THE NEW DI STRI CT TI.IO--

A I,,E I RE TALK I NG NQW ABOUT FEBRUAP.Y .

A THIS t^rAS DONE ON APRIL 26.

A RIGHT. MY qUESTION TO MOU IS IN THE FEBRUARY

SESS I ON, !.IHEN THE SENATE RECONVENED AS A I1ESULT OF THE FI RST

DEPAP.TMENT OF JUSTICE OBJECTION TO THE SENATE REAPPORTIONT4ENT

PLAN/ THE SENATE C0t4MI TTEE \^tHI CH yOU CHAIRED RECOMMENDED A

DISTRICT*"A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST THAT HAD

A 51.7 PERCENT POPULATION?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZOIIA

nl1i)
A THATIS CORRECT.

A AND THE MOTION THAT SENATOR FRYE HAD MADE TO

CP.EATE A DISTRICT WITH A 55 PERCENT BLACK POPULATION IN THE

I'JORTHEAST WAS OPPOSED SPECI FI CALLY BY SENATOR HARRINGTON, IS

THAT CORRECT?

A THATIS WHEN I SAID PROBABLY, BUT I DONIT REI'IEI'1BER

SPECI FI CALLY.

A NO'/ AT THAT TIIME THE COI.IMITTEE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT

IT COULD DRAW A DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST I{ITH A POPULATION

OF AT LEAST 59.4 PERCENT BLACK, IS THAT TRUE?

A I THINK I REI4EMBER THAT, BUT !,USTICE TOLD US I^/E

ONLY HAD TO GO TO 55 AND THATIS WHERE THE COMI4ITTEE WENT.

A WHEN YOU l^/EP.E REAPPORTIONING THE SENATE IN FEBRUARY

YOU HAD SPECiFICALLY BEEN TOLD THAT A PLAN COULD BE DRAWN

WITH A 59.4 PERCENT BLACK DISTR.ICT IN THE NORTHEAST, ISN'T

THAT TRUE

A THATIS TRUE, BUT WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO GERRYI.{ANDER

Al'lD CUT SOME oF THE.AD.JOININc--9oME OF THE ADJACENT AREA To

DO THAT.

A WERENIT YOU IN FACT TOLD THAT THIS PLAN THAT I./AS

59- -I,JI TH A 59 . 4 PERCENT 3I]ACK DI STRI CT WAS NoT GERRYMANDERED?

A PERHAPS I T I^,ASN I T GERRYMANDERING, BUT THE ANSWER

TO YOUR QUESTI ON I S, YES, WE WERE SHOWN HOW WE COULD DRAI^/

THE PLAN WITH APPROXIMATELY 59. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY,

BUT THE REASON THE SENATE DIDN'T GO WITH IT WAS THERE WAS A

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ANIZONA

CUTTING OF MORE COUT\ITY LII.IES THAT THEY DIDNIT I^JANT To GET

I NTO.

a BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO rdITH GERP.YMANDERING?

A NO. THAT WAS THE I,VRONG WORD.

A DID YOU EVER ASK TO SEE THE SPECIFIC PLAN WITH A

59.4 PEP.CENT BLACK DI STP.I CT IN THE NORTHEAST?

A I CAN I T REMEI.{BER ASK I NG, BUT I F SOMEONE WAS TALK.-

ING ABOUT IT, THEY PROBABLY PASSED OUT MAPS AND SHOWED IT.

A NOW I N APRI L I/,HEN THE DEPARTMENT oF JUST I cE

OBJECTED TO THE PLAN THAT THE. SENATE HAD ADOPTED IN FEBRUARY,

AND THAT I S THE PLAN I.'I TH THE 5L .7 PERCENT BLACK DI STRI CT I N

THE NORTHEAST, YOU PERSONALLY ASKED THE STAFF TO COME UP hIIT

sor'lE oTHER OpT I ONS , I S THAT CORRECT ?

A I DONIT REALLY REMEMBER, BUT THAT SOUNDS UOGICAL.

q DO YOU REMEMBER ASKING THE STAFF TO COME UP WITH

SOI.IE OTHER OPT I ONS ?

A NO.

MS . GUI N I ER : -. MAY I APPROACH THE

t/ITNESS?

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS:

BY MS. GUINIER:

YOU MAY.

a r sHot, you A. copy oF EXHTBIT (E)(E)(E), WHrCH

IS PAP.T OF THE STIPULATIONS IN THIS CASE. BOTH THE DEFEI.ID-

ANTS AND THE PLAINTIFFS HAVE AGREED THAT THIS IS A TRUE AND

ACCURATE COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE SENATE--OF THE GENERAL

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZOI.IA

l_1 t" 2
ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA FOR THE EXTRA

SESSION IN APRI L,, AND I ASK YOU TO LOOK AT PAGE 6 OF TAPE 1

I^IHEP'E I T SAYS, 'tSENATOR P.AUCH, '' AND PLEASE READ THAT.

A ''SENATOR ALLSBROOK., I HAVEN I T DONE ANYTHI NG. WE

HAVENI T DONE ANYTHING. WE' LL MEET ToNIGHT, WE I LL I4EET

TOT4CIRROW, WEILL LOOK AT AI.IY PLAN YOU OR ANY SENATOR WANTS TO

PUT FOP.1^/ARD. I PERSOI.IALLY ASKED THE STAFF To HAVE S0ME

OPTIONS. THAT IS ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED. I UNDERSTAND THAT

AT LEAST ONE OTHER SENATOP. HAS AT LEAST ONE PLAN.II

q DOES THAT HELP TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

A IN TRUTH,. NOT REALLY, BUT IF I SAID IT, I'M

SURE I DID.

A IN FACT, WHEN YOU ASKED THE STAFF TO COME UP WITH

SOME OPTIONS, YOU DID NOT ASK TO SEE THE PLAN WITH THE 59.q

PERCENT DISTRICT IN THE NORTHEAST, DID YOU?

A. I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER. IIM NOT DENYING SUCH

A PLAN EXI STED. I JUST OOT T T REI4EMBER.

A AND YOU DON?T REMEMAER EVER ASKING TO SEE THAT

PLAN IN APRIL '/HEN YOU ASKED THE STAFF TO COME UP WITH SOME

OPT I ONS ?

A I DONTT REI..IEMBER THE SPECIF[C PLAN, BUT I CAN

ASSURE YOU THAT IF A PLAN I./AS MENTIONED, THE SENATOR WHO

I'IEI.ITIONED IT HAD IT DOCUMENTED AND BPIOUGHT IT OUT IN FRONT

OF EVERYBODY.

A YOU DID NOT SPECIFICALLY ASK, AS PART OF YOUR

A P. O. &r llt6
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REQUEST THAT THE STAFF COME UP I^/ITH SOME OPTIONS

TO SEE PLANS WITH A 59.4 PEF.CENT BLACK DISTRICT

NORTHEAS T ?

IN APRIL,

IN THE

A I DONIT THINK SO. BUT IN THE APRIL 26 MEETING,

'dE KNE'^/ THAT JUSTICE HAD TOLD US TO GO TO AT LEAST 55 PERCENT

SO I AM SURE THAT Ii..I I.4Y INSTF.UCTIONS TO THE STAFF, WHI CH YOU

II'JDICATED I GA.vE-'.-IT '//AS uNDEp.srooD EITHER By A DIRECT op.DER

BY ME OR BY INNUENDO TO SATISFY JUSTICE THAT THE PLANS COME

UP WITH AT LEAST 55 PERCENT.

A AND IN FACT A PLAN,THAT HAS 59.4 PEP.CENT IS AT

LEAST 55 PERCENT, IS IT NOT?

YES, MA'AM.

DID YOU SPECIFICALLY ASK TO SEE THE PLAN THAT HAD

SESS I ON THAT I,/AS 59 .4 PERCENT
BEEN DISCUSSED IN THE FEBRUARY

B LACK ?

I'M SOtlRY, I qoN'T RECALL.A

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

TO EXPLORs AS FAR AS YOU NEED

WI TI'IESS I RECOLLECTION, BUT tly

HAS SAID THAT HE DOES NOT HAVE

BELIEVE YOUIVE RUN THIS ABOUT

PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

A L O, tq alao
lJ e.badl xo.ri C.r!at!. t ltt

COUNSEL, YOU ARE ALLOWED

TO EXPLORE TO REFRESH THIS

SEI.ISE IS YOUI'VE DoNE THAT. HE

THAT RECOLLECTION. AND I

AS FAP. AS FAIP.NESS JUSTIFIES.

MAIN OFFICE, RAIIIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PI|oENIX, ARIZONA

MS. ,GUINIER: THANK yOU, yOUR HOpOp.

By y5. GUINIER:

A NOW,YOU SAID THAT THE STAFF CAME UP WITH SOME

oPTIoNS AND SOTH oF THOSE oPTIoNS, IN FACT, TJERE 55.3 PERCENTo



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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BLACK, IS THAT CORRECT?

A I DON I T REMEMBEP. THAT .

A YOU APPOINTED SENATOR HARRINGTON TO CHAIR A

SUBCOMMITTEE TO CONSIDER THOSE TWO STAFF PLANS, IS THAT

CORRE CT ?

A YES. oN APRIL 26, r APP0INTED A SUBCOMMITTEE.

AND AS I REMEMBER, THAT SUBCOMMITTEE CONSISTED OF THE

SENATORS IN THAT ENTIRE EASTERN AREA TO WORK ON A PLAN TO

SATISFY THE JUSTICE REQUIREMENTS.

A SO YOU APPOINTED A SUBCOMMITTEE OF MEMBERS FROM

THE AFFECTED DISTRICT?

A THATIS CORRECT.

A AND SENATOR HARRINGTON I.JAS THE CHAIR OF THAT

SUBCOMMITTEE?

A I THINK HE WAS, YES.

A AND HE WAS THE.ONE MOST AFFECTED?

A YES. HE REPRESENTED WHAT I S PRESCNTLY THE SENATE

DI STRI CT TWO.

A AND THE SUBCOMMITTEE WAS AN ALL WHITE COMMITTEE?

A THAT'S CORRECT, BECAUSE WE pICKED THE SENATORS

FROM THAT AREA, AND THERE I'IERE NO BLACK SENATORS FROM THAT

AREA.

A AND THIS SUBCOT4MITTEE NECESSARILY HAD A HIGH

DEGREE OF SELF_INTEREST?

A REDISTRT;CTING, ITSELF, HAS A HIGH DEGREE OF

- 
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SELF_ INTEREST, YES.

A AND THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDED A THIRD OPTION--

NOT THE TWO OPTIONS THAT THE STAFF HAD DRAI^/N AT YOUR REQUEST?

A I DONIT REMEMBER HOW MANY OPTIONS THE STAFF

DREW, BUT THE SUBCOMMITTEE WAS NOT LIMITED TO WHAT I

SUGGESTED. I MERELY HAD SOME GENERALITIES OR PLANS FOR THEM

TO GO BY--USE IF THEY LIKE, CHANGE IF THEY LIKE.

q MY QUESTION IS, DID THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMEND

A PLAN THAT WAS DIFFERENT THAN ANY NUMBER OF THE PLANS THAT

THE STAFF HAD DRAWN

A I rt4 SORRY, I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.

A DO YOU REMEMBER THAT THI S PLAN THAT THE SUB.

COMMITTEE RECOMMENDED WAS A PLAN THAT SENATOR DANIELS HAD

ASKED THE STAFF TO DRAW?

A I'M SORRY, I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THE PLAN CAME

FROM.

A DO YOU RECALL SENATOR DANIELS ASKING THE STAFF

TO DRAW A PLAN THAT WAS BETWEEN 50 AND 55 PERCENT BLACK?

A NO, I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD, BECAUSE YoU HAD To

HAVE 55 PERCENT.

A IN FACT, THE PLAN THAT THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECoMMENDE

rvAS 55.1 PERCENT BLACK, IS THAT CORRECT?

A THATIS RIGHT.

A AND DIDN'T YOU SAY ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE, AND

I QUorE, "...wE WERE GIVEN'THREE pILLS AND t^,E swALLowED THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF ,. O, aor ratt!

lJ Rthrlrr ttrdt c{!lr atctr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,IAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PFOENIX, ARIZONA

1116
SMALLEST ONE. !I

A I DONIT REMEMBER SAYING TT, BUT THATIS THE KIND

OF LANGUAGE I WOULD USE.

A NOW IN FEBRUARY I^/HEN THE DISCUSSION FI RST CAME

UP OF A MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT, YOU HAD BEEN TOLD THAT THE

MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT IS SOI4ETHING CONSIDERABLY OVER 5O

PERCENT BLACK?

A THATIS RIGHT.

q YQU HAD BEEN TOLD THAT WHEN THE JUSTICE DEPARTME}I

TALKED ABOUT A MAJORITY, BLACK,DISTRICT, THEY USUALLY HAVE A

BENCHMARK MAGIC NUMBER OF 65 PERCENT?

A THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I}VE HEARD IT.

a you WERE NOT TrOLD THAT I N FEBRUARY OF 19 8 2 ?

A IF I WAS, I DONIT REMEMBER IT. I DON'T DENY

HAVING BEEN TOLD THAT. I'M JUST SAYING I'M SORRY, I DCN'T

REI.IEMBER HAVI NG BEEN TOLD . THAT .

A AND YOU AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE CONSIDERABLY

EASIER FOR A BLACK PERSON TO GET ELECTED IN A DISTRICT THAT

WAS 60 PERCENT THAN IN A DISTRICT THAT IS 5I PERCENT BLACK?

A PROBABLY, YES.

A NOW YOU MENTIONED THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

REJECTED THE PLAN THAT THE SENATE CAME UP WITH IN FEBRUAP,Y,

AND THEY REJECTED THAT PLAN AND qAVE YOU INSTRUCTIONS TO

COI"IE UP WITH A PLAN THAT WAS AT LEAST 55 PERCENT BLACK?

A THATI S 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876-1571

PHOENIX, ARlZOl.lA

_x.117
q AND YOU, IN FACT, AT THE APRIL SESSION, HAD

SEVERAL PLANS AVAILABLE TO YOU THAT WERE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER

THAT HAD DISTRICTS IN THE NORTHEAST THAT WERE CONSIDERABLY

HIGHER THAN 55 PERCENT BLACK?

A PROBABLY, YES.

a BUT THE COMMTTTEE DID NOT CHOOSE TO ADOPT ANy

OF THOSE PLANS--

JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, THIS IS AT LEAST

THE THIRD TIME BY I4Y COUNT THAT YOU HAVE ASKED A QUESTION

SO CLOSE TO THAT THAT I COULD NOT DISTINGUISH THAT---

MS. GUINIER: I WILL MOVE ON,' YOUR

HONOR.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A YOU SAID THAT THE LEGISLATURE DID WHAT THE

DEPARTMENT OF LIUSTICE HAD INSTRUCTED THEM, IS.THAT CORRECT?

A THAT'S CORRECT..

A AND THE LEGISLATURE DID ONLY WHAT THE DEPARTMENT

OF JUSTICE HAD INSTRUCTED THEM?

A THATIS CORRECT.

a AND NO MORE?

A THATIS ALL THEY WERE TOLD TO DO.

a AND THEY DIDN'T DO ANy MORE THAN WHAT__-

.A THATIS CORRECT.

A NOW, IN ATTEMPT,IJNG TO MEET THE DEPARTMENT OF

.JUSTICE'S BOTTOM LINE, I,JAi THERE ANY CONFLICT WITH KEEPING

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PRECISION REPORTING
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D I STP.I CTS

A

EXCEPT AN

QUESTTON.

A

UNUSUAL ON

I'D BE HAPPY TO. IN ATTEMPTING TO DO WHAT THE

COMMITTEE AND THE LEGISLATURE FELT WAS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL

TO MEET THE JUSTICE DEPARTI.4ENTIS MINIMUM REQUIREMENT, T,IAS

THERE ANY CONFLICT WITH ANY OTHER MOTIVATION TO KEEP THE

DISTRICTS THE SAME AS THEY HAD ALI,'AYS BEEN?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, .THAT qUESTION IS Too

CONVULUTED FOR ANYONE TO TRY TO ANSWER.

MS. GUINIER: I T'JI LL REPHRASE THE

QUEST r ON .

BY MS. GUINIER:

HAVENIT'YOU STATED THAT IN ITS REDISTRICTING

GOAL, THE SENATE HAD TO COMPLY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF TJUSTIC

ON THE ONE HAND, AND YET ON THE OTHER HAN9, THERE WAS THE

INNER PROTEBTIVE INSTINCT OF EACH LEGISLATOR TO KEEP HIS

DISTRICT THE SAME OR AS CLOSE TO THE SAME AS HE COULD?

YES.

AND IN THAT SENSE, WASN'T SENATOR FRYE UNUSUAL

AMONG THE MEMBERS OF YOUR COMMITTEE?

THE SAME AS THEY HAD BEEN?

I DONIT UNDERSTAND !'BOTTOM LINE'I IN ANY CONTEXT

ACCOUNTING STATEMENT. PLEASE REPHRASE YOUR

SENATOR FRYE IS UNUSUAL ON THE COMMITTEEi I'M

THE COMI,IITTEE. I DONIT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN.

DIDNIT YOU SAY AT ONE POINT THAT SENATOR FRYE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

111i,
WAS MOR,E INTERESTED IN HELPING BLACK PEOPLE ALL OVER THE

STATE THAN HE WAS AT JUST GETTING HIMSELF RE-ELECTED?

A YES. YES, SEI..IATOR FRYE DEFINI TELY LOOKED AT THE

ENTI RE STATE RATHER THAN HI S OI,IN PERSONAL DI STRI cT.

A AND IN THAT SENSE HE I.JAS UNUSUAL?

A YES.

, Q AND MOST LEGISLATORS ARE PRIMARILY CONCERNED

AEOUT THEIR OWN RE-ELECTION WHEN THEY ARE DRAWING REDISTRICT

ING PLANS?

A THATIS CORRECT.

q AND THE ISSUE OF HELPING MINORITIES OR COMPLYING

hIITH THE DEPARTMENT OF.JUSTICE WAS SUBSERVIENT TO THEIR

CONCEP.NS ABOUT GETTING RE-ELECTED?

A IIM SORRY. PLEASE GIVE ME THAT OVER AGAIN. MY

WIFE JUST WALKED IN AND I LOST YOU. PLEASE RESTATE THAT

QUESTTON.

a THE pRIMARY mOrlvATIoN oF THE LEGISLATOp.S WHO

WERE DRAWING THESE REDISTRICTING PLANS WAS THEIR OWN

RE-ELECTION, IS THAT CORRECT?

A NO.

A DIDNIT YOU TJUST SAY THAT ABOUT--A FEW MINUTES

AGO?

A I SAID HENRY FRYE WAS AND IS AN OUTSTANDING AND

UNUSUAL MAN, AND HIS MOTIVATION IN REDISTRICTING WAS TRYING

TO GET BLACKS RE_ELECTED--ELECTED ALL OVER THE STATE. THE

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AVERAGE LEGISLATOR WAS MANDATED BY OUR CRITERIA TO PROTECT

BLACKS--TO TRY TO GET BLACKS ELECTED, AND THEN AS A SECOND

OR THIRD THOUGHT, THEY WERE GETTING RE-ELECTED THEMSELVES.

BUT HENRY FRYEIS WAS FOR OTHER PEOPLE FIRST.

A MY.QUESTION U/AS, IN FACT, WASNTT THE PRIMARY

I4OTIVATIOru oT THE LEGISLAToRS wHo wERE INVoLVED IN THE

REDISTRICTING PROCESS A CONCERN ABOUT THEIR OWN RE-ELECTION?

COULDNT|IT BE--MIGHT HAVE BEEN--IT WAS IN THE EARLy

STAGES I,.JHEN WE WERE EDUCATING OURSELVES AND LEARNTNG FROM

JUSTICE, BECAUSE WE CAME UP WITH EXACTLY.THE SAME MAP THAT

1,/E HAD ALL BEEN RE-ELECTED UNDER. THEN, OVER A PERIOD OF TIME

ESPECIALLY AFTER THE CRITERIA WERE ESTABLISHED-_I BELIEVE IN

THE JANUARY 28 MEETING, THEN--AND ITIS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED

IN THE CRITERIA SOMEWHERE AROUND THE END OF THE SEVEN OR

EIGHT ITEMS__THAT KEEPING COUNTY LINES AND KEEPING THE

STATUS QUo, so ro SPEAK/ wAS MENTIor'reo. BUT THAT wAS

MENTIONED MUCH AFtTE.

COULD YOU TURN TO F.AGE 106 OF YOUR DEPOSITION?

SURE .

A WOULD YOU READ ALOUD THE QUESTION THAT STARTS ON

LINE 3 ;THROUGH THE ANSWER ON LINE 10?

A ''....;WOULD YOU SAY THAT THAT AS A PRACTICAL

MATTER IS THAT REALLY THE PREDOMINANT THING THAT WAS ON THE

LEGISLATORSI MIND WHEN THEY WERE DRAWING A PLAN, THE ABILITY

OF THEM TO GET RE-ELECTED? YES. AND WFIEN YOU SAY THAT

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876-1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LL?L
THAT REALLY PERMEATES THE I.'HOLE PROCESS? YES.II

WHO SAI D 'IYES'' IN ANSWERA YOU WERE THE PERSON

TO THOSE QUESTIONS?

A YES. THEREIS NO DOUBT THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT.

YOU HAVE TO REALIZE, I DON'T LIVE THIS EVERY DAY. YOU ASK

ME SOMETHING A YEAR AGO, IILL GIVE YOU PRETTY CLOSE TO TUE

SAME ANSWER IILL GIVE YOU NOW, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE VERBATIM.

a so IN FAcr, THE PRIMARY coNcERN oN THE MINDS oF

THE LEGISLATORS WHE WERE RE:DRAWING THESE LINES wAS THEIR

O}/N RE-ELECTION?

A NO, I WOULD CHANGE MY MIND A LITTLE

IF THATIS ALLOWED. IT WASNIT ON MINE. WITHOUT

OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CONCERNS WAS RE-ELECTION.

BIT FROM THAT

A DOUBT, ONE

JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, THIS HAS BEEN EXPLoRED

FAR ENOUGH,NOW. I THINK THE COURT IS PERFECTLY AWARE OF HOW

FAR YQU COULD GO WITH THIS WITNES' O*O HOW FAR YOU HAVE GONE

l,rITH HIM.

MS . GU I N I ER : THANK -YOU, YOUR HONOR .

JUDGE PHI LLI PS : Not^r MovE oN To SOMETHING ELSE

BY MS. GUINIER:

A NOW HAVENIT YOU ALSO SAID THAT THE PRIMARY REASON

THAT LEGISLATORS AR.E CONCERNED ABOUT NOT BREAKING COUNTY

LINE WAS BECAUSE THATIS HOW THEIR OLD DISTRICTS WERE DRAWN

AND THAT I S HOW THEY GET ELECTED?

A yES / THAT r S ONE OF THE l,1AI N REASONS .

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l AtN oFFrcE, RAt ETGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PI-toENIX, ARIZONA

llr.qLJ-L4L.

A NOW HAVING THREE SENATORS FROI.I SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS IN GUILFORD COUNTY HAS NOT HUP.T THE QUALITY OF

REPRESENTATION FOR PEOPLE FROM THOSE DISTRICTS, HAS IT?

A NO.

A YOU.IVE SEEN NO EVIDENCE THAT THE NEEDS OF GUILFOR

COUNTY AND HIGH POINT AND GREENSBORO HAVE GONE UNATTENDED

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE REPRESENTING THOSE AREAS COME FROM THREE

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A NO, BUT YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT ME TO SAY ANYTHING

AGAINST }'IY FELLOW SENATORSI WOULD YOU?

q NOW YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE FOR L7 YEARS,

I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED?

A THIS IS MY 17TH YEAR.

A AND IN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE LEGISLATURE, HAS

THE INDEPENDENCE OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT INCREASED DRAMATICALLY?

A YES, IT HAS.

e No!^I couLD I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT 3

THATIS ATTACHED TO YOUR DEPOSIT^ION? THE EXHIBIT STICKEP. IS

AT THE BOTTOM. DO YOU HAVE THAT PAGE?

A YES, I D0,

a couLD you LooK AT P.EAPPORTIONI4ENT CRTTERIA FCUR

AND JUST READ THAT TO YOUP.SELF?

(wtrrurss cotlPLIES.)

A OKAY.

A NOW THAT PARTICULAR CRITERIA SAYS IHAT THEo
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.1571

PT{OENIX, ARIZONA

LEGISLATURE IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE

STATEIS HISTORIC COMMUNITY AND COMMONALITIES OF INTEREST,

DOESNIT IT?

A YES.

A AND. THAT PARTICULAR CRITERIA MEANS

SHOULD BE CONSTRUCTED THAT RECOGNIZE DISTINCT

OF INTEREST?

THAT DISTP.ICTS

COMI.IUNITIES

CORRECT.

A IN YOUR MIND DOES II]HAT MEAN THAT A COUNTY LIKE

GASTON COUNTY SHOULD BE COMBINED I.IITH A COUNTY LIKE MECKLEN-

BURG COUNTY ?

A

a

COUNTY LIKE

ME CK LENBURG

A

a

LI KELIHOOD

COMMONAL I TY

NO,

IN YOUR MIND DOES THAT ALSO APPLY EQUALLY TO A

CABARRUS COUNTY BEING COMBINED WITH A COUNTY LIKE

COUNTY ?

CORRECT.

IN Y.UR MIND/ i,-,u SI'IALLER THE DISTRICT, THE M'RE

OF DRAWING A.DISTRIqT THAT HAS PEOPLE IN IT WITH

OF INTERESTS?

YES.

MS. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. THANK

YOU.

REDIRECT EXAA4 INATION 9:45A.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

Q,

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A SENADOR, WHI[E YOU ARE ON THAT EXHIBIT, THE

ATTACHMENT TO YOUR DEPOSITION-_DO YOU HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF

YOU ?

A YES. THE REAPPORTIONMENT CRITERIA?

A YES. WHEN WERE THOSE CRITERIA ADOPTED?

A THEY WERE ADOPTED JANUARY 28, 1982.

A IN YOUR OPINION, SENATOR, DID THE SENATE COMMITTEE

GIVE SERIOUS CONSIDERATION TO THESE CRITERIA DURING THE

PROCESS OF THE REDISTRICTING?

MS. cUINIER: OBJE.CTTON__LEADINc.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: THEY DID. THESE' GRITERIA WERE

DRAWN AFTER TERRENCE SULLIVAN, WHO WAS THE HEAD OF OUR STAFE

WENT TO WASHINGTON. HE CAME BACK. THERE WERE SEVERAL

LEGISLATORS WHO WENT WITH HIM, AND THEY CAME BACK, AND

TERRENCE SUBMITTED THE CR]TERIA. 
'; 

CRITERIA WAS BROUGHT

BEFORE CO}4MITTEE, AND I REMEMBER READING EACH ONE OF ITHE

PROPOSALS, HAVING PROPOSED DISGUSSION ON EACH ONE OF THEM,

AND THEN MAKING SOME CHANGES IN THEM.

AND THEN THE COMMITTEE ADOPTED THEM. I BELIEVE THE

HOUSE AND THE SENATE ADOPTED THEM.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?

BY MR. LEONARD:

A THESE CRITERIA IN THE RECoRD AS EXHIBIT o-1-_-

JUDGE BRITT: (INTEP.POSING) THE DEPOSITION IS INo
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THE RECORD, TOO.

MR. LEoNARD: THE PRoBLEM, YOUR HoNoR, IS THAT

WETRE NOT SURE ALL OF THESE--WHAT ARE HEADED "CRITERIA,, ARE

ACTUALLY ALL THE SAI'IE. SO GIVE US A FEW I1OMENTS JUST TO MAKE

SURE THAT THEY ARE IN FACT THE ONES THAT THE SENATOR REFERRED

TO THAT WERE ADOPTED IN JANUARY OF 1982, BECAUSE THERE WERE

DIFFERENT CRITERIA THAT I^/ERE FLOATING AROUND.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a ISN'T THAT CoRRECT, SENATOR?

A THAT'S CORRECT, THE SENATE CHANGED THE CRITERIA

THAT THE STAFF ORIGNALLY SUBMITTED.

A YESTERDAY, ON CROSS EXAMINATION, COUNSEL BROUGHT

OUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAD NEGLECTED TO HAVE IN YOUR NOTES THA

ARE BEFORE YOU, A RATHER IMPORTANT EVENT, IS THAT CORRECT?

THATIS CORRECT. WHAT HAPPENED WAS I MADE---

--EXCUSE ME. W.HAT WAS TH; EVENT?

WELL, I LEFT OUT OF MY NOTES AND I NEVER REFERRED

TO THE FEBRUARY 4 PUBLIC HEARING.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

A I MADE MY NOTES, AND FRANKLY, READ THE MINUTES TO

BE PREPARED FOR THIS TRIAL, AND THE SENATE MINUTES LEFT OUT

THE FEBRUARY 4 PUBLIC HEARING BECAUSE IT WAS VERY LARGE, AND

THERE WERE A LOT OF VERBATIM MINUTES TAKEN. AND IT WAS NOT

PUT IN THE SENATE BOOK.

SO I^JHEN I GOT THE SENATE MINUTES ON REDI STRI CTING,

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LZ6
THE FEBRUARY I+ PUBLIC HEARING.JUST WASN'T IN IT. IT \

PROBABLY IS IN THE HOUSE BOOK/ OR SEPARATE. AND I JUST

NEVER GOT IT, AND THATIS WHY I WAS EMBARRASSED YESTERDAY

BY MAKING A MISTAKE ABOUT A FEBRUARY 4 MEETING. I DIDNTT

KNOW IT OCCURRED UNTIL COUNSEL REMINDED ME OF IT. AND FOR

THAT I AM SORRY.

A AFTER THE ADOPTION OF THE CRITERIA IN JANUARY OF

1982/ DID THERE coME A POINT IN TIME WHERE you GAVE INSTRUC-

TIONS TO THE STAFF AND TO COUNSEL RELATING TQ THOSE CRITERIA

A OH, YES, AFTER THE CRITERIA WERE ESTABLISHED, I

BELIEVE THE STAFF WAS INSTRUCTED To WORK oN PLANS; SENATORS

WEP.E TOLD TO WORK ON PLANS; AND WE USED THOSE CRITERIA

FROT4 THAT POINT ON.

A SUBSEQUENT TO THE WORK BY THE STAFF AND THE

SUBCOMMITTEES AND COUNSEL, DID YOU PERSONALLY REVIEW THE

PLAN WHICH WAS PROPOSED TO BE ADOPTE; BY THE SENATE TO

DETERMINE IF IT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THOSE CRITERIA?

A I CAN'T SAy I REALLY-DID THAT. yOU KNOW, yOU

HAVE STAFF AND YOU DEPEND ON STAFF TO DO THINGS LIKE THAT.

WHEN YOU ARE CHAtrRING A MEETING, PEOPLE MAKE AMENDMENTS oR

CHANGE THINGS/ AND YOU DONIT HAVE TIME TQ CHECK THEM ALL.

I DOUBT THAT I DID EVERYTHING PERSONALLY.

q DURING YOUP. CROSS EXAMINATION, YOU WERE ASKED

BY COUNSEL QUESTIONS RELATING TO THE BREAKING

LINES UP IN THE NORTHEASTERN PART OF THE STATE

OF THE COUNTY

IdITH RESPECT

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LZ7
TO THE CREATION OF SENATE DISTRICT TWO. WAS IT YOUR VIEI.'

THAT THE PRINCIPT\ES THAT GUIDED YOU IN THE BREAKING OF THOSE

LINES TO CREATE THAT DISTRICT WERE TO BE APPLIED STATEWIDE?

A NO. WE 
'JERE 

TOLD THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE AN

ACCEPTABLE PLAN WE NEEDED"T.O COME UP I.'ITH A DISTRICT THERE IN

wHAT IS NoW NUMBER TWo, WITH A ss PERCENT BLACK popULATIoN.

AND I,/E DID THAT. WE REALLY WERE LOOKING AT THTNGS AS WE

l'tERE TOLD To LooK AT THEM. wE DIDNTT--wE WERE TOLD How ro
DRAW AN ACCEPTABLE PLAN BY JUSTICE, AND SO THATIS WHAT wE

SET OUT TO DO. AND WE SATISFIED EVERYTHING THAT THEY TOLD

US TO DO.

A MY QUESTION, HOWEVER, IS: WERE PRINCIPLES THAT

YOU APPLIED WITH RESPECT TO THE DISTRICT TWO APPLICABLE TO

THE ENTIRE STATE?

A NO. I THINK THAT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT---

JUDGE PHILLIPS.: MR. WITNESS, IF YOU WILL LISTEN

VERY CAREFULLY TO YOUR VERY COMPETENT COUNSEL, HEtS ASKING

VERY PRECISE QUESTIONS. IF YOU WILL ANSWER THEM AND ONLY

THEM, I.IE CAN MOVE oN A LITTLE SETTER.

THE wITNESS: oKAY.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DID YOU APPLY THE SAME PRINCIPLES TO THE BALANCE

OF THE STATE, THAT IS THE WESTERN PART OF THE STATE, THAT

YOU APPLIED IN THE DESIGNING OF SENATE DISTRICT TWO?

A NO.

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 83?.9085

779.3619 876-.571
PHOENIX, ARIZOT.IA

112I
A EXPLAIN TO THE COURT WHAT THE DIFFEP.ENCE IS.

A WELL, WE HAD THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT THAT HAD PART

OF OUR COUNTIES UNDEII,' I BELIEVE THERE WERE 40 OF THEH, AND

I^/E HAD TO LOOK AT THEM ONE I^,AY AND THE OTHERS A DI FFERENT,

I^JAY.

A I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE SUBCOMMITTEE--

ONE OF THE SUBCOMMITTEES SPLIT THE DISTRICTS IN GUILFORD

COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT? THAT IS, SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTED

THAT AREA?

A GUILFORD COUNTY }TENT TO THREE SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS.

A DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU PERSONALLY DISCUSSE

THE CREATION OF THE GUILFORD COUNTY DISTRICTS t,IITH SENATOR

FRYE ?

A THERE WAS. WE HAD A MEETING---

JUDGE PHI LLI PS : ( INTEP.PO"*.' NOW MR. WITNESS,

IF YOU'LL REMEMBER MY LAST ADMONITION.'

THE WITNESS: YES.

BY MR. LEONARD:

q WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THE COURT THE CIRCUMSTANCES

OF'TI.IAT DISCUSSION h'ITH SENATOR FRYE?

A I WAS IN RALEIGH, AND SENATOR FRYE WAS NOT IN

RALEIGH. AND I PERSONALLY WENT TO GREENSBORO 1^'ITH TTHE MAPS

AND SHOI{ED THEM TO SENATOR FRYE AT HIS OFFICE TO SEE IF HE

WOULD CONCUR. AND HE DID CONCUR-- PERIOD.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

129
A SENATOR, DID YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHAT

AMOUNT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE DISTRICTING COMI4ITTEE_-

DISTRICTING COMMITTEE ITSELF OR THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE

SENATE INTENDED TO DENY EQUAL ACCESS TO 165-POLITICAL

PROCESS AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO BLACK PEOPLE TO BE ELECTED

THROUGH THE ENACTMENT OF CHAPTER TWO OF THE 1982 SECOND

EXTRA SESSION?

MS. GUINI ER: OBJEcTI oN.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS: oVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: No. wE DIDNTT--_

BY MR. LEONARD:

a THE qUESTION IS, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION?

A YES.

a WHAT rs THAT OPINION?

A WE I/,ERENIT ATTEMPTING TO DENY ANYONE THE RIGHT

OR THE PRIVILEGE, THE DUTY OF VOTING. THAT WAS NEVER

DISCUSSED.

A AND I^'ITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION OF EQUAL

OPPORTUNITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR

cHoIcE, wAS IS YOUR OPINION?

A WE WANTED THEM TO ELECT ANYONE THEY WANTED TO.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MS. GUINIER: NO QUESTIONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YoU, SENATOP. RAUcH.

E X A M I'N A T I e'N 9:55 A.M.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

13C
BY JUDGE DUPREE:

a I WAS GOING TO ASK : r UNDERSTOOD yOU HAD TWO

PUBLIC MEETINGS IN I981, ONE IN MAY AND ONE IN OCTOBER, AT

WHICH A TOTAL OF NINE PEOPLE APPEARED AND MADE TALKS. I

UNDERSTAND THEY DID NOT MENTION THE PROBLEM OF SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS. I WAS WONDERING WHAT DID THEY COME TO ADVOCATE,

OR TALK FOR OR AGAINST

A I REALLY CANIT REMEMBER EXACTLY. BUT MY NOTES DO

sHow THAT ON MAy 2t, DONNA .JONES OF COMMON CAUSE WAS THE

ONLY SPEAKER. I CANNOT REMEMBER WHAT SHE SAID ON MAY 2T.

YOUR HQNOR, I CANTT REALLY REMEMBER WHAT THE EIGH

PEOPLE SAID, BUT THEY SPOKE ON OCTOBER 2A. I JUST REALLY

CANIT REMEMBER THEIR SPECIFIC NEEDS.

A NOW TH I S MORN I f.lc, YOU, ON Tt,rO OCCAS I ONS, HAD SOME

EXPLANATION--FURTHER EXPLANATION THAT YOU WANTED TO MAKE OF

SOME ANSWER THAT YOU WERE NOT AFFORD;D AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO.

I'D BE INTERESTED IN I<UOW;T.IE WHAT IT WAS.

A MY ATTORNEY ASKED ME THAT QUESTION, SIR. THE

PROBLEM WAS---' r'' i ; i..,''

A IIM TALKING ABOUT QUESTIONS THAT OPPOSING COUNSEL

ASKED YOU.

A I TRIED TO ANSWER---

A IF YOU GAVE ALL THE EXPLANATION, THATIS ALL I

WANT TO KNOW.

A I HAVE, THANK YOU, SIR.

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Q.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-157],

PI|oENIX, ARIZONA

A I JUST DIDN'T WANT YOU TO GO AwAY WITHOUT

HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO TELL IT ALL.

A THANK YOU, SIR.

' L,UDGE' PHI LLI PS:' 'Tl'.lANK-YOU; SENATOR RAUCH.

(WITNESS EXCUSED. )

MR. LEONARD: REPRESENTATIVE DAN LILLEY.

(wne Re ueou,

DANIEL T. LILLEY

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOWS: )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS FOR

THE RECORD PLEASE

A MY NAME IS DANIEL T. LILLEY, THAT IS L-I-L-L.E-Y.

I RESIDE AT 1809 SEDGEFIETD DRIVE IN KINSTON, NORTH CAROLINA.

A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH

CAROLINA, MORE SPECIFICALLY, THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES?

A YES, SIR, I AM A MEMBER OF THE NORTH CAROLINA

HOUSE. IIM NOW IN MY EIGHTH TERM

A WHAT. ARE'THE COUNTIES THAT YOU REPRESENT, REPRE-

SENTATIVE I]ILLEY? AND IF YOU WOULD, JUST APPROACH THE-.THIS

I5 GINGLES EXHIBIT 3, AND IF YOU WOULD, REFER TO THAT

EXHIBIT.

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I PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCFIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I REPRESENT THE THIRD HoUSE. DISTRICT, WHIcH

TNCLUDES THE COUNTIEs OF LENOIR, CRAVEN, AND PAMLICO.

a PRIOR TO. THE REDISTRICTING OF 1982, WaS Tl-rAT

YOUR LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT?

A NOr- S I R. ,JONES COUNTY WAS INCLUuED I N THAT

UISTRICT AT THE TIME, AND OF COURSE, BECAME ONE OF THE MORE

DIFFICULT THINGS TO LUSE A COUNTY COMPLETELY' THAT I HAD

RETRESENTED FOR T4 YEARS, BUT IN ORDER TO MEET THE REQUIRE-

MENTS OF REDISTRICTING, I DID LOSE JONES COUNTY.

DID YOU HAVE AN OFFICIAL POSITION IN THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES WITH RESPECT' TO REDISTRICTING?

A I wAS ASKED BY OUR SPEAKER, RAMSEY, TO SERVE AS

COJ-CHAIRMAN UF HOUSE REDISTRICTING BECAUSE OF THE SIZE AND

CCMPLEXITY OF THE STATE AS RELATED TO THE DISTRICTS COVERIN6

I2O HOUSE MEMtsERS. THE STNTE WAS DIIVIDED INTO TWO AREAS,

AND I CO-CHAI RED WITH REPREStI,ITaTI vE JONES FROM RUTHERFORD

COUNTY, THE REDISTRICTING.

I WAS KNOWN, OF COURSE,AS THE EAST COMMITTEE WHICH

TOOK ROUGHLY THI. AREA OF NORTH CAROLINA FROM RANDoLPH COUNTY

UP TO THts VIRGINIA LINE,,DOWru TO THE SOUTH CAROLII'IA LINE,

BACK TO.IHE EAST. AND OF CUURSE, REPRESENTATIVE JoNES AND

HIS COMMITTEE HAD THE BALANCE OF THE gTATE.

AND WHEN DID YOU COMMeNCU, YOUR SERVICE AS CO.

CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMITTEE?

I WAS APPOINTED, IF I RECALL, ON THE 19TH OF

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

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lJ itbarn, tao,Ol ceali. 2rcr!

l ArN oFFrcE, RALE|GH, 832.9085

779-3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

.JANUARY TO--yoU KNOW i TO SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF THE

SPEAKER. WE, OF COURSE, BEGAN OUR DELIBERATIONS SO FAR AS

OUR MEETTNGS---

!,UDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPoSING) MR. WITNESS, IF

YOU I^JILL LISTEN TO YOUR COUNSEL, HEtS ASKING \/ERY PRECISE

QUESTIONS.AND IF YOU WILL JUST ANSWER THOSE, WE WILL MOVE

ALONG A LITTLE BETTER.

. BY MR. LEONARD:

A I THINK THE qUESTION, REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY, WAS

WHEN DID yOU COMMENCE YOUR SERVICE AS CHAIRMAN?

A FEBRUARY 4. WELL, Ir.D ANSWER THAT AS THE lgTH

OF JANUARY.

a oF 1981?

A OF 1981.

A PLEASE, ITIs IMPORTANT To BE PRECISE HERE WITH

RESPECT TO THC TWO YEARS THAT ARE INVOLVED. SO IF YOU WOULD

INCLUDE WITH ANY DATE WHAT YEAR YOU ARE REFERRING TO?

A I.D BE HAPPY TO.

A TELL THE COURT BRTEFLY HOW YOUR COMI4ITTEE I.JAS

ORGANIZED AND WHAT STAFF IT HAD AVAILABLE TO IT.

A MY COMMITTEE HAD 22 ME}4BERS.'I..WEI .HAD 2 VICE CHAIRMEN

AND WE HAD THE BENEFIT OT'OUR LEGAL STAFF TO ADVISE US.

A AND THE LEGAL STAFF CAME FROM THE LEGISLATIVE

STAFF THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO THE LEGISLATURE?

A THAT!S CORR.ECT.



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCHIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

A DO YOU RECALL ROUGHLY HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU HAD?

A IT WOULD DEPEND UPON THE' WORKLOAD. WE HAD TWO

GENERALLY THAT WAS AT OUR COMMITTEE MEETINGS.

A THAT IVAS TWO PROFESS IONAL STAFF?

A YES, 5lR.

A DURING THE COURSE qF THE 1981:.82 LEGISLATIVE

SESSION OF THE LEGIELATURE, HOI{ MANY MEETINGq oF THE

COMMITTEE AND THE SUBCOMMITTEES WERE HELD?

A IN 1981 WE FIAD 12 MEETINGST SqME gF THOSE WERE

JOINT WITH THE SENATE, BUT THERE WERE L2 MEETINGS AND THERE

WESE SOME SIX OR EIGHT IN TT{E EARLY.PART O[ 1982.

A WERE THOSE MEETTNGS OP.EN TO THE PUBLIC?

A THE HOUSE NEVER CONDUCTED BU$INESS THAT WAS NOT

AN OPEN MEETING. WE DID NOT GO INTO ANY EXECUTIVE SESSIONS.

A YOU!RE TALKING ABOUT THE HQUSE COMMITTEE?

A. HoUSE CoMMITTEEi

q ON REDISTRICTING?

A YESI SIR'

A DID YOU HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING EARLY TN Lg82?

A WE HEI-D A PUBLIC HEARING, I BELIEVE,IN EARLY T982

TO HAVE THIS--THE CITIZENS A CHANCE TO..GI.VE THEIR VIEI.'S.

q DO YOU KNOW THE PRECISE DATE THAT THAT MEETING

I^/AS HELD?

A I BELIEVE THAT WAS FEBRUARY 4.

A WHAT PREPARATION AND NOTICE DID YOU GIVE FOR AND

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OF THAT MEETING?

A WE SENT OUT NOTICES AND REQUESTED THAT THEY BE

PUBLISHED,I BELIEVE FIVE..ON FIVE DIFFERENT DAYS IN SOME 1O

OR 12 MA.JOR NEWSPAPERS ACROSS THE STATE. AND WE, ALSO HAD

DELIVERED TO EACH COURTHOUSE BY THE ORGANIZATION OF THE

HIGHWAY PATROL A PROPOSED REDISTRICTING PLAN.

A REPRESENTATIVE I.ILLEY, WHEN DID.IT FIRST COME TO

YOUR ATTENTION THAT THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH RE,SPECT TO

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRTCTS VERSUS T4ULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTs IN

MECKLENBURG, WAKE, OUNHAryI, AND FORsYTH COUNTIES IN NURTH

CAROLI NA?

IF I RECALL, REPRESENTATIVE

THE QUESTION I5 WHEN,

I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT DATE.

WAS IT IN 1981 OR 1982?

A. IT WAS IN.-I BELIEVE IT WAS

a WHAT-WERE THE .r*arrrrANcEs

LEARNED THAT TnAT WAS AN ISSUE JHAT THE

DEAL hII TH ?

SPAULDI NG---

IN 1982.

UNDER WHI CH YOU

COMMITTEE HAD TO

A REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING BROUGHT BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE SUGGESTIONS THAT WE CP.EATE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

IN THE MECKLENBURG, WINSTON-SALEM, FORSYTH AREA, ALONG WITH

WAKE COUNTY, IF I RECALL.

A WH/IT DISTRICT DID REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING

RE PRE S ENT ?

Q,

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Q, PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 Ar6-4571

P}ioENIX, ARIZONA

A HE REPRESENTED DURHAM COUNTY.

a AND WHAT WAS HrS PROPOSAL FOR DURHAM COUNTY?

A DURHAM IS A MULTI-I,IEMBER DISTRICT,AND HE DID NOT

PROPOSE TO CHANGE THAT.

A WHAT REACTION DID REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING' S

PROPOSAL TO SINGLE MEI,IBER DISTRICT MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH

AND WAKE, BUT EXCLUDE DURHAM RECEIVE FROM THE MEMBERS OF THE

COMMITTEE?

A THE COMI4ITTEE MEMUERS DIDNIT APPRECIATE WHAT

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING wAS PROPOSING. THEY TOOK THE VIEw

THAT.IF IT WAS GOOD FOR ME.CKLENBURG COUNT.Y THAT CERTAINLY IT

OUGHT TO BE GOOD FOR HIS DISTRICT IN DURHAM COUNTY. BUT

HE WAS SATISFIED TO LEAVE A MULTT-MCMEEh, DISTRICT IN DURHAM

AND GO TO SINGLE ME,MBER DISTRICT IN THOSE OTHER COUNTIES.

a How DID YOU PER9ONALLY VIEt^t THE SPAULDING PROPOSA

A OF COURSE, AS CHAIRMAN, I DIDNTT HAVE TO--YOU KN

I DIDN'T TAKE ANY VOTE OR DIDN'T TAKE ANY SIDES EITHER WAY.

I PERSONALLY WAS SHARING THE SAME FEELING OF MY COMMITTEE

MEMBERS.

A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, REPP.ESENTATIVE LILLEY, WHAT

EFFECT DOES A PROPOSAL BY A LEGISLATOR TO DO SOMETHING FOR

YOUR DISTRICT THAT HE DOESNTT WANT TO HAVE DUNE'-TO HIS OwN

DISTRICT DO TO THE CREDIBILTTY oF THE LEGISLAToR IN HIS

PROPOSAL ?

A I THINK IT DRASTICALLY REDUCES THE CREDIBILITY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085' 779.3619 876.4571

PI|oENIX, ARIZONA

ON THA'I PART I CULAR I S SUE.

q LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED DEFENDANTIS

EXHItsIT 56 AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN CAN IDENTIFY THAT?

(DEFEDANT. ExHIBIT No. 56 wAs

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )

IS THAT A LETTER THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN TO YOU?

A YES, SIR.

MS. WINNER: I DON'T BELIEVE WE HAVE ANY EXHIBITS

PAST 54.

BY MR. LEONARD:

DO YOU HAVE COPI ES OF THAT EXH.I BIT, REPRESENTAT IVE

LILLEY?

(DOCUMENT HANDED TO COUNSEL. )

MR. LEONARD: I'M SORRY. IF THE COURT PLEASE,

THIS DOES NOT HAVE THE STICKER ON IT BECAUSE WE HAD THE COPIE

AND PUT THE STICKER ON AFTER WE MADE THE COPIES.

JUDGE BRITT: TELL US THE NUMBER SO WE CAN WRITE

IT ON THERE

MR. LEONARD: IT'S DEFENDANTIS EXHIBIT 56.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WOULD YOU IDENTIFY THAT, REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY?

A THIS IS A LETTER THAT WAS ADDRESSED TO ME AS

CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE SIGNED BY

WILLIAM M. BELL, CHAIRMAN, CUMBERLAND COUNTY MINORITY

LEADERSHI P CANCUS.

s t. O. lq ttas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND DATED JANUARY 28, tg82?

YES, SIR.

MR. LEONARD: I OFFER DEFENDANTSl EXHIBIT 56

INTO EVIDENCE, IF THE COURT PLEASE.

MS. I,.JINNER : I OB.JECT BOTH ON THE GROUND TH I S

IS UNTiMELY FILED--CLEARLY ITtS BEEN IN THE POSSESSION OF

THE DEFENDANTS FOR A YEAR AND A HALF, AND ALSO ON THE GROUND

THAT IT IS OBVIOUS HEARSAY ADMITTED ONLY FOR THE TRUTH OF

THE MATTER STATED, AND THAT IS TO EXPRESS THE OPINION OF MR.

BELL, WHO IS IN FACT PURPORTS TO BE SPEAKING FOR SOMEBODY

ELSE.. SO IT'S HEARSAY WITH}N HEARSAY ON T LETTER.

MR. LEONARD: IF I MTGHT RESPOND TO THAT. FIRST

OF ALL, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE LETTER UNTIL YESTERDAY. I

APOLOGIZE FOR NOT HAVING GOTTEN IT TO COUNSEL LAST NIGHT OR

EARLIER THIS MORNING. THE LETTER IS PART OF THE FOUNDATION

FOR THE QUEST IoN THAT I HAVE BEEN asrrr.fe THE LEGI SLATORS h/ITH

RESPECT TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A DIVISION OF OPINION,

WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS UNANIMITY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

THIS IS A LETTER RECEIVED IBY HIM IN HIS OFFICIAL CAPACITY

AS THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMITTEE. I THINK ITIS ALSO

ADMISSIBLE UNDER THE BUSINESS RECORDS EXCEPTION TO THE HEAR-

SAY RULE.

WHETHER IN FACT MR. BELL BELIEVED WHAT HE SAID IN

THE LETTER IS NOT WHAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO PROVE. V,/HAT WE

ARE ATTEMPTING TO PROVE IS THAT THIS LEGISLATOR AND CHAIRMAN

a

A

A P, O. !d 2tttlt
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'+t PRECISION REPORTING

AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.457',|

PI{oENIX, ARIZONA

OF THE COMMITTEE RECEIVED A COMMUNICATION WHICH HAD THIS

OPINION.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THE COURT I S CONCERNED ABOUT THE

TIMELINESS FACTOR IN THE OFFER OF THIS EXHIBIT. DO YOU,

MS. WINNER, HAVE ANY QUESTION ABOUT AUTHENTICITY?

MS. WINNER: MY RESPONSE IS THAT HAD I KNOWN A

QUESTION WAS COMING FROM CUMBERLAND COUNTY, I NOT ONLY WOULD

HAVE DONE SOME INVESTIGATION TO FIND OUT WHAT THIS PURPORTED

MINORITY LEADERSHIP CAUC,US IS, BUT I MIGHT HAVE HAD MY OWN

COUNTERVAILING EVIDENCE ABOUT. WHAT THE ARTICULATED OPINION

OUT OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY WAS, JAND WOULD HAVE BEEN PREPARED TO

PRESENT THAT EVIDENCE TO THE COURT.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I CAN APPRECIAT

COUNSELIS CONCERN AND THE COURTIS CONCERN. I DONIT THINK

THAT IS RELEVANT. WHAT IS RELEVANT IS THAT THIS WITNESS,

h/HO WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE C.qMMITTEE, RECEIVED A LETTER AND

IF THE QUESTION IS WHAT HIS INTENTIONS V{ERE AND WHAT WAS IN

HIS MIND AS HE LOOKED AT THE---

LIMITED

AND ITS

RECE I VED

YOU WILL

JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) FOR THE ABSOLUTELY

PURPOSE OF INDICATING THE RECEIPT OF A COMMUNICATION

BEARING UPON THE INTENTION OF THE LEGISLATOR WHO

IT, WE WILL RECEIVE IT, BUT ONLY FOR THAT PURPOSE.

MS. WINNER,]. DID I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THAT

NOT CONSIDER THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTER TO BE TRUE?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: AS HEARSAY.

F P. O. !d 2tlc'
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.457t
P}OENIX, ARIZONA

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 56

WAS RECEIVED AS EVIDENCE.)

BY MR. LEONARD:

A REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY, OTHER THAN EXHIBIT 56,

I^IHAT OTHER CONTACTS OR COMMUNICATIONS DID YOU RECEIVE FROM

THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY YOU REP--THE COUNTIES THAT

YOU REPRESENT WITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION OF SINGLE VERSUS

MULT I _MEMBER DI STRICTS?

A ABSOLUTELY NONE.

A WHAT IS THE BLACK.POPULATION OF LENOIR COUNTY IN

DISTRICT TWO--HOUSE DISTRICT TWO?

A LENOIR COUNTY HAS 38 PERCENT BLACK, ROUGHLY.

a WHAT IS THE BLACK POPULATION OF CRAVEN COUNTY?

A 27 PERCENT.

A AND PAML I CO ?

A 3I PERCENT.

A WHAT, IF ANY, CONTACTS OR COMMUNICATIONS DID YOU

RECEIVE FROM BLACK PEOPLE OR T.HEIR REPRESENTATIVES IN AREAS

OF THE STATE OTHER THAN HOUSE DISTRICT THREE URGING YOU AND

YOUR COMMITTEE TO SUPPORT SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, OTHER

THAN WHAT OCCURRED AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ON FEBRUARY 4, 1982

A IT WAS VERY MIN IMAL.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I HAVE 'JUST A MOMENT?

(PAUSE. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A P, O. lor 2.ltl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBINO, INC. i ArN oFFtcE, RAt EtcH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION

AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATOR, YOUR

COMMITTEE, AND THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES INTENDED IN THE

ENACTMENT OF CHAPTER ONE 1981 SECOND EXTRA SESSION REDISTRICT

ING PLAN, TO DENY BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS STATE AN OPPORTUNITY

TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE?

A NO.

a You Do HAVE AN OPINION?

A I DO HAVE AN OPINION, AND THAT OPINION WAS THAT

WE WERE NOT GOING TO TRY TO PREVENT THEM FROM BEING ELECTED.

MR. LEONARD: THATIS ALL.

C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N 10:15 A.M.

BY MR. HUNTER:

A REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY, FOR THE RECORD, WOULD YOU

STATE YOUR RACE, PLEASE?

A WHITE.

a AND YOUR DEPOS I T r ON ^t''AS TAKEN ON FEBRUARY 24 ,

198]. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

A YES, SIR.

A HAVE YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY SINCE THAT TIME

TO READ YOUR DEPOSITION?

A YES, SIR. I GLANCED THROUGH IT.

A HAVE YOU READ TT THOROUGHLY IN PREPARATION FOR

YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY?

F P, O. ld t!tt3!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIEING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-157'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I HAVENIT READ EVERY WORD, BUT I THINK THE

SALIENT POINTS IIVE TOUCHED ON, IF I RECALL.

A AND IN GENERAL, WERE THE STATEMENTS YOU MADE

UNDER OATH AT THAT TIME STILL ACCURATE AND TRUE TO THE BEST

OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF?

A AS I RECALL IT AT THIS POINT, BUT I WOULD RESERVE

THE RIGHT, IF I MAY SIR, TO DEVIATE IF I HAVE ADDITIONAL

FACTS NOW THAT I DID NOT HAVE THEN.

A ARE THERE ANY FACTS THAT YOU CAN THINK OF?

A NO, SIR.

A NOW ON THIS MATTER OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, DID YOU

ATTEND A PUBLIC HEARING ON THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 1982 AT

1:]O P.M. IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE BUILDING IN RALEIGH?

A YES, SIR.

A DID YOU LISTEN TO THE WITNESSES THAT APPEARED AT

THAT PUBLIC HEARING?

A YES, SIR.

a AND DrD yOU HEAR MR-. CLINTON HARRTS FROM CUMBER-

LAND COUNTY, MR. ALBERT WAGNER OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY, MR.

BILLY KING FROM CUMBERLAND COUNTY, AND THOMAS COUNCIL OF

CUMBERLAND COUNTY, AND RICHARD BISHOP OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY

SPEAK AT THAT HEARING?

A IF THEY SPOKE, I HEARD IT.

A AND DID ANY OF THE WITNESSES THAT APPEARED AT

THAT PUBLIC HEARING FROM CUMBERLAND COUNTY REQUEST MULTI-MEMBE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l ArN oFFrcE, RATETGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, AR|ZO[.{A

DISTRICTING?

A NOT THAT:I RECALL.

A NOW YOU STATED EARLIER ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING;S CREDIBILITY WAS SOMEWHAT LESS

BECAUSE HE DID NOT WISH TO DIVIDE DURHAM COUNTY, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A AS IT RELATED TO THIS ONE ISSUE. AND I WANT TO

MAKE THAT PERFECTLY CLEAR IF I MAY, SIR, THAT THAT RELATED

ONLY TO THiS ONE ISSUE.

a I sN I T rT A FACT THAT ON FEBR.UARY 5, tgg2

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING DID, IN FACT, INTRODUCE A PLAN TO

DIVIDE DURHAM COUNTY INTO SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A HE MAY HAVE DONE THAT.

A ISI.IIT IT A FACT THAT PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6(A)

IN THE RED LINES HERE INDICATE THE SPAULDING PROPOSED DISTRICT

THAT WAS INTRODUCED ON FEBRUARY 5, OR DO YOU RECALL?

A I DONIT RECALL THE DATE

A YOU DON'T RECALL THE DATE, BUT DO YOU RECALL THE

PLAN?

A I DONIT SPECIFICALLY RECALL THE PLAN EITHER. IF

IT WAS, AND YOU SAY IT WAS, I 'M SURE IT I^JAS . BUT IT WAS

REJECTED BY THE COMMITTEE.

A BUT HE SUBSEQUENTLY INTRODUCED A PLAN? OR YOU .JUS

N'T RECALL?

A I DONIT RECALL.

A P. O. lor ntet
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOEN|X, ARtZOf.JA

A NOW, THE FIRST PLAN THAT WAS INTRODUCED IN

1981, WHAT I^JERE THE AREAS oF coNcERN THAT THE LEG I SLAT IVE

COMMITTEE HAD? WHAT WERE THE GOALS THAT IT SOUGHT TO

ACHIEVE IN ITS REDISTRICTING PROCESS?

A YOUR HONOR, IT IS HARD JUST TO ANSWER WITHOUT

GIVING SOME BACKGROUND, BUT IN VIEW 0F ADMONITION WE CAN'T

DO THAT.

A YOU CAN ANSI,/ER THE QU EST I ON . FEEL FREE .

A INSOFAR AS I WAS PERSONALLY CONCERNED, AND I

BELIEVE THIS IS IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND PHILISOPHICALLY,

WHAT, WE WERE REQUIRED TO DO AS ELECTED OFFICIALS OF NORTH

CAROLINA, REPRESENTING SOME 6 MILLION PEOPLE--WE WERE CALLED

UPON BY STATUTE TO REDISTRICT THIS STATE BASED ON THE

POPULATION. AND INSOFAR AS I WAS CONCERNED AS CHAIRMAN,

I WANTED TO DO WHAT WAS BEST FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE

OF NOR,TH CAROLINA, BECAUSE WE.WERE DESIGNING A PLAN WE WERE

GOING TO LIVE WITH FOR 10 YEARS.

NUMBER ONE, WE WANTED T{ ADHERE TO THE CONFINES OF

OUR NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTION--AT THAT TIME :IT HAD NOT

BEEN STRUCK DOWN TONOT BREAK COUNTY LINE. INSOFAR AS I I^'AS

CONCERNED, WE DID NOT WANT TO FRACTURE OR SUBMERGE A MINORIT

PEOPLE. AND WE DID NOT WANT TO WILLFULLY AND INTENTIONALLY

DESTROY INCUMBENTS.

HOWEVER, BECAUSE

IN ONE AREA TO LOSE ONE

OF THE POPULATIONSHIP WE KNEW WE HAD

HOUSE MEMBER. AND SO FAR AS I I^IASa
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CONCERNED, I WAS GUIDING THE COMMITTEE IN THAT DIRECTION,

AND TO FIND A PLAN, OF COURSE, THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE AND

MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE ONE VOTE ONE PERSON--WHICH IN

MY MIND WAS VERY STRONG, VERY PARAMOUNT.

A SO THAT I WILL BE CLEAR IN YOUR ANSWER, THIS WAS

IN 1981. ARE YOU SAYING THAT IN 1981 THE SUBMERGENCE OF

MINORITIES WAS A FACTOR IN THE FIRST PLAN?

A I DONIT THINK SO.

A OKAY. SO THAT IN THE FIRST PLANS, THAT WAS NOT

A FACTOR

A IT WAS NOT A MA.JOR FACTOR. WE WERE NOT TRYING

TO HURT ANYONE, BUT IT WAS NOT A MAJOR FACTOR.

A HOW FAR DID THE COMMITTEE GO IN PROTECTING

INCUMBENTS IN THE 1981 PLAN?

A I'D SAY WE WENT FAIRLY FAR. IT AGAIN STAYED

WITHIN..THE REASONABLE GUIDELINES AS TO NUMERICAL GROUPINGS.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I DONTT

RECALL THAT ON DIRECT EXAMINAT.ION WE WENT INTO THE DEPTH

THAT COUNSEL IS GOING INTO. I'M GOING TO OBJECT UNLESS THERE

IS SOME QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY. OBJECT TO THE SCOPE OF THE

CROSS- EXAMINAT ION.

MR. HUNTER: I'M I4ERELY GOING OVER MATTERS THAT

WERE IN HIS DEPOSITION. NOW WHETHER THAT MATTER WILL OR WIL

NOT BE IN EVIDENCE IS SOMETHING THAT IIM NOT AWARE OF. I

BELIEVE IIM ALLOWED TO GO OVER--HEIS CHAIRMAN OF THE

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PIioENIX, ARIZONA

1146
COMMITTEE AND HE HELD THE COMMITTEE HEARINGS. I OUGHT TO

BE ABLE TO GO INTO THESE MATTERS.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE coURT"PLEASE, THE DEPoSITIo

IS IN EVIDENCE AND THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY IN THE DEPOSITION

IS AVAILABLE TO THE COURT AND TO COUNSEL.

MR. HUNTER: THE DEPOSITIoN IS NoT IN EVIDENCE

YET. WE DONIT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL BE. THE COURT

HASN'T RULED ON IT. NEITHER MR. LILLEY'S NOR MR. RAUCH'S

DEPOSITION IS IN EVIDENCE.

MR. LEONARD: I,M NOT SURE WHAT THE STATUS IS.

I BEIIEVE THE DEPOSITIONS HAVE BEEN OFFERED.

MR. HUNTER: THEYIVE BEEN FILED, BUT I

BELIEVE THEYTVE BEEN OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. IN ANY

WHETHER THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT, I THINK IIM ENTITLED

DONIT

EVENT,

TO ASK

HIM QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.

. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: *"NOU' REGARD TO WHETHER THE

DEPOSITION IS IN EVIDENCE, THE SCOPE OF CROSS IS LIMITED BY

THE SCOPE OF DIRECT EXAMINATION, AND THE OBJECTION IS THAT

YOU ARE GETTING OUT OF.BOUNDS ON IT. WEILL PROCEED BECAUSE

I AM FRANK TO SAY THAT I DO NOT RECALL THE EXTENT TO WHICH

THIS PARTICULAR MATTER WAS TOUCHED ON'IN DIRECT. GO ON WITH

YOUR QUESTION.

a

DISTRICT

BY MR. HUNTER:

DRAWING YOUR ATTENTION BREIFLY TO THE L2TH HOUSE

OVER HERE, AND SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 816.a571

PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA

INCUMBENTS, IN THE 19BO SESSION, DO YOU RECALL WHERE THE

INCUMBENTS LIVED IN THE 12TH HOUSE DISTRICT?

' 
MR. LEOMRD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I OBJECT TO

THAT. THERE WAS NO TESTIMONY ON DIRECT EXAMINATION ABOUT

I NCUMBENTS WHATSOEVER.

iJUDGE PH I LL I PS : SUSTAI NED ON THAT .

MR. HUNTER: .I WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD IN REGARD

TO THE CREDIBILITY OF THIS PARTICULAR WITNESS AND HIS ABILITY

TO RECALL THESE PARTICULAR FACTS. HE HAS TESTIFIED AS TO

WHAT THE COMMITTEES DID DURING THIS PERIOD OF TiME, WHAT THE

HEARINGS WERE. WERE ARE GOING TO GET INTO MATTERS ON CUMBER-

LAND COUNTY. I THINK I OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO EXAMINE HIM ON

THESE MATTERS.

JUDGE PHI LLI PS:

ON HIS DIRECT EXAMINATION?

TO CHALLENGE HIS CREDIBILITY

. MR. HUNTER: 
.WELL, THEY HAVE ASKED HIM THE

QUESTION GENERALLY, 'IDID YOU--DID THE LEGISLATURE INTEND TO

DISCRIMINATE?'' AND I'DOES HE HAVE AN OPINION ON THAT ISSUE?t'

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, HIS LAST ANSWER IN RESPoN

TO THE LAST QUESTION WAS THAT IN HIS OPINION THERE WAS NO

INTENTION TO DISCRIMINATE.AND TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE EXPLORING

THAT, YOU ARE WITHIN THE BOUNDS. BUT I AM FRANK TO SAY THAT

I IM HAVING A LITTLE DIFFICULTY.

MR. HUNTER: ALL I AM ATTEMPTINd TO SHOW, YOUR

HONOR, IS THAT THEBE IS AN INTENT.a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 8t6.1571
P}OENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU PROCEED WITH YOUR LINE

OF QUESTIONING, AND WE WILL HOLD YOU TO THE BOUNDS OF THE

DIRECT.

BY MR. HUNTER:

A WHAT WAS THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE USE OF

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN SOME AREAS AND NOT IN OTHERS?

A COUNSEL, YOU ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT WE

RECEIVED A DIRECTIVE FROM THE ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL,

CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, STATING THAT THE 40 COUNTIES COVERED

BY THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT-_.

a soRRy. I DON ' T MEAN TO BE RUDE AND STOP yOU.

IN 1981, WHAT WAS THE REASON THAT YOU USED SOME MULTI-MEMBE

DISTRICTS AND SOME SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A WE WERE TRYING TO PASS A PLAN THAT WOULD HAVE

THE LEAST DISTURBANCE ON THE MEMBERS WHO WERE THERE.

A AND SO THAT INCUMBENCY WAS A PRIMARY FACTOR IN

YOU 1981 PLAN? PROTECTING INCUMBENTS?

A I THINK, IN MY OWN VIEW, PRIMARILY THE NUMERICAL

GROUPINGS HAD TO BE RIGHT. AND SECOND TO THAT WAS THE

I NCUMB ENC Y .

a WHAT NUMERTCAL---

A I'M TALKING ABOUT ONE VOTE, ONE PERSON.

A AND WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE GOAL YOU WERE

SHOOTING FOR IN THE 198I PLAN?

A TEN PERCENT.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAE P. O. lq 2lrat
lJ tuhacr, l{orrh ce{o. ztrrr

a rN 1981?

A THATIS CORRECT.

IF THE COURT PLEASE,MR. .LEONARD:

THAT ISNIT EVEN IN DISPUTE iN THIS CASE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

BY MR. HUNTER :

WELL, OVERRULED.

A NOW SUBSEQUENTLY AFTER THE 1981 PLANS WERE

PASSED, DID YOU RECEIVE LETTERS FROM THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

THAT CONTAINED IN THEM THE CONCLUSION THAT MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS SUBMERGE CONCENTRATIONS OF MINORITY VOTES? IS

THAT CORRECT?

A THAT I S CORRECT. BY IISUBMERGENCEII WE MEAN

NUMERICALLY SUBMERGED.

A BUT YOU RECEIVED THE LETTERS. DO YOU AGREE WITH

THE CONCLUSION OF THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT MULTl_MEMBER

DISTRICTS SUBMERGE CONCENTRATIONS OF MINORITY VOTES?
.

A BY VOTE NUMBERS, CORRECT. I AGREE.

A WAS THE HOUSE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE AWARE OF

THIS EFFECT OF MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS ON COGNIZABLE MINORIT

CONCENTRAT I ONS ?

A THEY WERE WELL BRIEFED ON THIS.

A AND THEY WERE AWARE OF IT WHEN THEY PASSED THE

PLANS?

A THATIS CORRECT.

a THE 1982 PLANS. YoU ALSO RECEIVED A LETTER



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PI.loENIX, ARIZONA

THAT CONTAINED THE CONCLUSION THAT ADHERENCE TO COUNTY

LINES WOULD NECESSARILY MEAN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS, AND

THAT THAT WOULD HAVE AN EFFECT--THE SAI'IE EFFECT OF

SUBMERGENCE, IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT I S CORRECT.

AND WAS THE LEGISLATURE AWARE OF THIS IN FACT?

YES, l^JE WERE .

A THE CRITERIA:THAT WAS; PASSED IN,

WAS SOMEWHAT D I FFERENT THAN I WHAT 
.WAS.:FASS.ED

WASN ' T IT?

WEIRE

IT?

THE

BY

HOUSE

THE SENAIE,

IS EXPLORING THE QUESTION OF THE INTENTIONS THAT YOU

INQUIRED ABOUT ON DIRECT EXAMINATION. WE'LL TRY TO KEEP

HIM WI.THIN THE BOUNDS OF FAIRNESS IN EXPLORING, BUT HE IS

WITHIN THE BOUNDS.

MR. HUNTER:

TO BE BRIEF.

I PROMISE I WILL TRY

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,

GOING TO BE HERE UNTIL FRIDAY, IF THE COURT PLEASE.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED, COUNSEL. HE

BY MR. HUNTER:

THE CP.ITERIA WAS DIFFERENT IN THE HOUSE, I.IASN'T

A I HAVE THE HOUSE CRITERIA THAT WAS ADOPTED

FEBRUARY 2, 1982 AND WE HAVE THE POINTS HERE. THERE WERE

9 OF THOSE. THEY WERE GUIDELINES. THAT WAS THE INTENT OF

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THEM, TO BE GUIDELINES.

A AND WITH REGARD TO THE SUBMERGENCE OF COGNIZABLE

MINORITIES, THE HOUSE CRITERIA HAS A PROVISION REGARDING

SUBMERGENCE, DOESNIT IT?

A NOT TO SUBMERGE OR FRACTION.

A NOW WAS THIS CRITERIA APPLIED THE SAME IN THE

COVERED COUNTIES AND THE NONCOVERED COUNTIES?

A 'I T WAS NOT.

A HOW WAS IT APPLIED IN THE COVERED COUNTIES?

A IN COVERED COUNTIES, AS YOU KNOW, WE ULTIMATELY

WOUIID UP CREATING DISTRICTS THAT WERE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK.

A AND IN THE NONCOVERED COUNTIES?

A IN THE NONCOVERED COUNTIES, THAT PARTICULAR

EFFORT I^/AS NOT EXERTED THE SAME !,JAY THAT IT WAS IN ORDER TO

MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

A WAS IT EXERTED AT ALL?

A I DONIT NTCAI.I- THAT IT WAS EXERTED AT ALL,

EXCEPT IN THOSE SPECIFIC AREAS THAT.JUSTICE POINTED OUT TO

US THAT CHANGES HAD TO BE MADE.

A IN THE NONCOVERED COL'NTIES, WAS IT MORE IMPORTAN

TO THE LEGISLATURE THAT THE INCUMBENTS BE RETURNED FOR THE

DISTRICT--LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

IN THE NONCoVERED COUNTIES, WAS THE INCUMBENCY

PROTECTION MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE CRITERIA OF SUBMERGENCE

OF MI NOR I TES ?

F t, O. aor l'tct
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.a57'-|

PHOENIX, ARIZOTIA

A I DONIT REALLY.-I DIDN'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

I DONIT REALLY THINK SO. MY NUMBER ONE GOAL WAS ONE PERSON

ONE VOTE THAT I^/E KNEW WE HAD TO MEET,,AND THEN NOT TO

FRACTURE OR TO FURTHER DAMAGE THE MINORITY VOTE.

A WAS THE CRITERIA APPLIED UNIFORMLY IN THE

t/ILSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH DiSTRICT, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS COVERED

BY SECTION 5?

WE WERE NOT INSTRUCTED BY JUSTICE TO MAKE ANY

CHANGES IN THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE JUST MENTIONED. THEY

HAD TOTAL ACCESS TO THE DATA.!AND I ASSUMED THAT THEY I^IERE

SATI,SFIED WITH THIS AREA OR THEY WOULD HAVE CALLED THAT TO

OUR ATTENTION AS THEY DID IN CUI4BERLAND AND GUILFORD AND IN

THE HALIFAX-BERTIE-MARTIN COUNTY AREAS.

HOW DID THE--WHEN THE COMMITTEE WAS EONSIDERING

THE REDISTRICTING PLANS, WHAT, IN 1982--WHAT STAFF SUPPORT

WAS GIVEN TO REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING TO DRAW A DISTRICT IN

THE NONCOVERED COUNTIES?

TO THE BEST OF OUR= KNOWLEDGE, HE HAS ACCESS TO

OUR STAFF LIKE OTHER MEMBERS DID.

WHAT IS THE NORMAL PROCEDURE IN THE LEGISLATURE

FOR STAFF SUPPORT IF THE MEMBER DESIRES TO DRAW A BILL?

HE SIMPLY GOES TO THE STAFF. WE HAVE NO

RESTRICTIONS. HOW CAN ANY OF US KEEP ANOTHER MEMBER FROM

GOING TO A STAFF MEMBER? THEY ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL OF US.

IQ BUT THE STAFF IN THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS WAS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PIloENIX, ARIZONA

SOMEWHAT RESTRICTED, WASNIT IT?

A IT WAS SIMPLY BECAUSE YOUIRE DEALING WITH 120

PEOPLE AND WE WERE DEALING WITH A COMMiTTEE OF 42, AND WE

S IMPLY HAD TO KEEP THINGS MOVING. SO I I,/OULD SAY THAT THE

ACTUAL BILL THAT WAS UNDER CONSIDERATION HAD PRIORITY. IT

HAD TO BE THAT WAY OR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM WOULD HAVE BOGGED

DOWN

a WERE YOU PRESENT ON FEBRUARY 3, 1982 WHEN YOUR

CO-CHAIRMAN JONES TOLD THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE REDISTRICTI

COMMITTEE, ,'... I'M TELLING YOU TO LEAVE THE STAFF ALONE.

I F YOU ' VE GOT A PLAN., WORK I T Up By YOURSELFI.T? :

A AT THIS LATE STAGE, I REMEMBER THIS.--AND IT WAS

A DECISION THAT I SUPPORTED; IT HAD TO BE MADE. WE DID HAV

A LIMITED STAFF. WE WERE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WE ALREADY

KNEW WE HAD TO DEFER A PRIMARY ELECTION, AND IF EVERYBODY

WENT TO THE STAFI" WE CQUI.O HAVE BEEN THERE UNTIL TODAY.

SO I CONCURRED WITH THAT DECISION. IT WAS A WISE DECISION

AND ONE THAT HAD TO BE MADE. '

A WERE YOU HERE YESTERDAY IN REGARD TO A DISCUSSI

I^IITH PROFESSOR FARRELL AND HIS DISCUSSION OF LOCAL BILLS?

YES, S IR.

A AND IN THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS, DID YOU ARRIVE

UPON THE INPUT FROM LOCAL LEGISLATORS AS TO HOW THEIR

DISTRICT WOULD BE DRAWN?

OH, YES, THEY HAD THEIR OWN PLANS. WE DID

A ?, O. lor rltas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZOi.IA

1154
INSTRUCT THEM TO LOOK .AT THE DOMINO EFFECT. THEY JUST

COULDNIT_-IF THEY WANTED A CHANGE IN THEIR DISTRICT THEY

HAD TO SHOW WHAT HAPPENED ACROSS THE STATE. SO THEY WEP.E

OPERATING UNDER THOSE RESTRICTIONS.

A T9R EXAMPLE, IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WOULD THE

LEGISLATORS IN I4ECKLENBURG COUNTY BE ABLE TO-_WOULD THEY

HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME UP WITH A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT PLA

IF THEY SO DESIRED?

A ABSOLUTELY.

AND WOULD YOU--IF THEY HAD AGREED UPON A SII.IGLE

MEMBER DI STRICT PLAN, I*/OULD THE HOUSE COMMITTEE HAVE PASSED

IT?

A I CAI.IIT SPEAK FOR 42 MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE. THEY

WOULD HAVE BEEN BEFORE THEM FOR THEM TO DECIDE.

A BUT THE DECISION OF WHETHER OR NOT TO SUBDIVIDE

MTCKLENBURG COUNTY WASN'T BEFORE TTIAT COMMITTEE, WAS IT?

A IT WAS NOT BROUGHT BY A MEMBER OF THE MECKLENBUR

DELEGATION,IF I RECALL. 'REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING, I THINK,

WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT BROUGHT THIS, UNLESS YOU ARE REFERRIN

TO SOMETHING THAT WEIVE NOT TALKED ABOUT.

A BUT REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDINGIS PLAN WAS BEFORE

THE LEGISLATURE ON MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A THATIS CORRECT.

A AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT THE FEELING OF THE

MECKLENBURG COUNTY DELEGATION WAS ON THAT PARTICULAP. ISSUE?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 816.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IF I RECALL, THE ONE MEMBER, THE LADY MEMBER,

REPRESENTATIVE BRENNAN, OPPOSED IT VERY STONGLY.

a DID ANYONE--DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT ANYONE

FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY ADVANCED THE CAUSE OF SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

A I DO NOT RECALL ANY OF THE INCUMBENTS ADVANCING

THAT.

a rN 1980 WERE ANY OF THE MEMBERS OF THE MECKLEN-

BURG COUNTY DELEGATION BLACK?

A I DONIT BELIEVE SO.

UNTIL IO:50.

(rne PRocEEDING WAS RECESSED AT 10: l5 A.M., TO

RECONVENE AT 10:50 A.M., THIS SAME DAY.)

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:50 A.M:

(WHER EUPON,

DANIEL T. LILLEY

THE hJITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

CROSS EXAMINATION

(RESUMED)

BY MR. HUNTER :

A REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY, YOU WERE IN THE LEGISLA-

TURE IN 1983, WERE YOU NOT?

A YES, SI R.

A DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO OBSERVE ANY

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN T'HE EFFECTIVENESS OF REPRESENTATION OF

LEGISLATORS FROl.4 SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS THAN THE EFFECTIVE

NESS OF LEGIS.LATORS FROM. MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A MY OBSERVATION WOULD BE THAT LEGISLATORS ARE

MORE EFFECTIVE FROM MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS.

A ARE YOU SAYING THAT FOR EXAMPLE, NOW THAT MARY

SEYMOUR, HOWARD COBLE AND MARGARET C. FORRESTER ARE NOW

ELECTED IN A SMALLER DISTRICT, THAT THEYA.RE LESS EFFECTIVE

THAN THEY WERE WHEN THEY WERE ELECTED AT-LARGE FROM GUILFOR

COUNTY ?

A I THINK SO. I THINK THERE I,/OULD BE CERTAIN ISSU

. WHERE 5 OFI. 6 PEOPLE WOULD MUSTER MORE STRENGTH THAN ONE.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l AlN oFFtcE, RALEtcH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THIS IS TRUE IN MY DISTRICT. I THINK THE 3 OF US ARE MORE

EFFECTIVE FOR MY DISTRICT THAN I WOULD BE ALONE.

A AND YOU MAKE THAT OBSERVATION ABOUT ALL THE

DISTRICTS?

A YES, SIR, AS I UI.IDERSTAND IT.

A CAN YOU THINK OF, IN THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

IN THE NONCOVERED COUNTIES--SPECIFICALLY IN REGARD TO

MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WAS THERE ANY DISCUSSION IN THE

LEGISLATURE REGARDING WHAT EFFECT A SINGLE MEMBER OR TWO

SINGLE MEMBER BLACK DISTRICTS WOULD HAVE ON THE INCUMBENTS

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A IT I^/OULD PROBABLY HAVE AN IMPACT. AS I RECALL,

REI'RESENTATIVE BE.RRY WAS ELECTED FROM MECKLENBURG IN THE

PRESENT SET-UP.

a IN THE 1980 SESSION, D,O YOU RECALL Al.lY

DISCUSSION ABOUT THE EF.FECT OF THE DRAWING OF TWO SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTS WOULD HAVE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A I DO NOT.

a Do You HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE

LEGISLATORS AT THAT TIME FELT THAT IT WOULD CHANGE THE

INCUMBENT MAKE-UP?

A I REALLY CAN'T COMMENT, BECAUSE THE MECKLENBURG

DELEGATION DIDNIT DISCUSS THAT WITH ME.

A DID THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY DELEGATION VOTE..

DO YOU RECALL, II.I THE COMMITTEE DISCUSSIONS WHAT POSITIONQ,t

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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-36't9 876-4571

PT{OENIX, ARIZONA

REPRESENTATIVE BLUE HAD IN REGARD TO SINGLE MEMBER DISTRI

IN THE COVERED COUNTIES?

A REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WAS TAKING THE VIEW THAT IN

THOSE COVERED COUNTIES, THAT WE OF COURSE HAD TO ADHERE TO

NOT SUBMERG I-NG THE M I NOR I TY RACE, AND THAT WAS REALLY THE

VIEW THAT ALL OF US HAD.

A AND THAT WOULD HAVE INCLUDED USING THE DEVICE

OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE COVERED COUNTIES?

A YES, SIR.

MR. HUNTER: .. . 
'' .,' NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MR . LEONARD : ... ,.NO RED I RECT .

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

(wtrnrss ExcusED.)

MR. LEONARD:

LOUI SE BRENNAN.

THANK YOU.

THE DEFENSE CALLS

. (wnrnEUPoN,

LOUISE S. BRENNAN

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

rottows : )

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:59 A.M

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME, PLEASE?

A I IM LOUI SE S. BRENNAN.

A MS. BRENNAN, WHERE DO YOU LIVE?

Q'
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. IIAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PIOENIX, ARIZONA

A IN CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA__ 2101 DILLWORTH

ROAD, EAST.

A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE NORTH CAROLINA HOUSE?

A YES, I AM.

A NORTH CAROLINA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES?

A YES.

a WHATTS YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND?

A I HAVE A B. A. IN ENGLISH AND POLITICAL SCIENCE,

AND AN M. A. IN POLITICAL SCIENCE.

A AND WHAT DISTRICT TO YOU REPRESENT IN THE HOUSE

OF REPRESENTATIVES?

A ]6TH DI STR I CT.

A AND THAT I S MECKLENBURG COUNTY ?

A YES.

A HOW MANY REPRESENTATIVES ARE THERE IN MECKLEN-

AUNE .COUNTY ?

A I.JE HAVE 8 HOUSE MEMBERS

A AND THEY ARE ELECTED AT LARGE?

A YES.

A TELL THE COURT WHAT THE GENDER AND RACIAL MAKE.

UP OF THAT DELEGATION.

A WE HAVE 3 T,JHITE FEMALES, ONE BLACK MALE, AND

FOUR WHITE MALES.

A WHEN WERE YOU FIRST ELECTED TO THE HOUSE?

A I I.JAS APPOINTED BACK IN 1969 AND COMPLETED A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TERM, AND RAN rN 1970 AND LOST. I RAN AGAIN IN 1976 AND

HAVE BEEN RE-ELECTED EVERY 2 YEARS SINCE.

A ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH A POLITICAL PARTY?

A IIM A DEMOCRAT

A DID YOU SERVE ON THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE

IN 1981-82 SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE?

A YES, I DID.

A HOW MANY BLACKS WERE ON THAT COMMITTEE?

A GOSH, REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING, REPRESENTATIVE

BLUE, REPRESENTATIVE CREESY WERE ALL ON THERE. AND HONESTLY

THAT.IS ALL I REMEMBER.

A WERE PROPOSALS OFFERED TO THE LEGISLATURE, TO

THE HOUSE IN THE 1981_82 SESSION TO DIVIDE MECKLENBURG

COUNTY INTO SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A YES, THERE WERE 2. REPRESENTATIVE HAGY

PRESENTED A PLAN WHICH WOULD HAVE 
'''"'O 

THE ENTIRE STATE,

AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING BROUGHT IN A PLAN SOMETIME IN

FEBRUARY, WHICH WOULD HAVE DIVIDED MECKLENBURG COUNTY,

wAKE COUNTY, AND FORSYTH COUNTY.

A WITH RESPECT TO REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDINGIS

PROPOSAL TO SUBDIVIDE THE 3 LARGE COUNTIES OTHER THAN HIS

OVJN DURHAM, WHAT WAS YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO HOW THAT

PROPOSAL WAS RECEIVED BY MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE?

A WELL, I CANIT SPEAK FOR THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE

COMMITTEE, BUT I BELIEVE I PROBABLY SAID IN THE COMMITTEE

a t, O. Bor ,lao
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e PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

16- I
THAT I BELIEVED IF YOU WERE GOING TO REDISTRICT OTHER

DISTRICTS, HE OUGHT TO START WITH HIS OWN. :

A WHAT, IN YOUR OPINION, IS THE REACTION TO MEMBER

OF A LEGISLATIVE BODY TO A PROPOSAL BY A LEGISLATOR WHO

WANTS TO DO.CERTAIN THINGS TO SOMEBODY ELSE'S DISTRICT, BUT

NOT TO HIS OR HER OWN?

A I THINK WE ALL HAVE A PAROCHIAL INT.EREST IN OUR

OWN DISTRICT, AND LIKE TO REPRESENT THEM IF ITIS AT ALL

POSS I BLE OURSELVES.

A WHAT WAS YOUR OPNION WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE

VERSUS MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A WELL, I OPPOSED THE CREATION OF THE DISTRICTS

AFTER CONSULTING WITH MY DELEGATION. AND I OPPOSED IT FOR

SEVERAL REASONS, IF YOU WISH ME TO GO INTO THAT.

A FIRST OF ALL, LET ME ASK YOU TO TELL THE COURT

HOW THE DELEGATION HANDLED THE 
""E 

OF SINGLE VERSUS

MULT I -MEMBER D I STR ICTS FOR MECKLENBURG J

A I tLL HAVE TO ELABORATE A LITTLE BIT. THE

DELEGATION DID NOT MEET ON THAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I WAS THE

ONLY MEMBER OF THE DELEGATION ON THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTE

NOW A DELEGATION DOES NOT TAKE A POSITION ON STATEWIDE

LEGISLATION; HOWEVER,, SINCE THIS I.JAS AN ISSUE BEFORE US, I

I'OLLED THE MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION AND ASKED WHAT THEY

WISHED ME TO DO.

I DONIT KNOW THAT I MIGHT WOULD HAVE AGREED WITH THEM,

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L62
BUT, AS IT TURNED OUT, WE AGREED THAT WE OUGHT TO TRY

TO RETAIN THE SYSTEM WE NOW HAD.

A WAS THERE ANY MEMBER OF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY

DELEGATION THAT OPPOSED CONTINUING SINGLE--MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICT FOR. THE COUNTY?

NO, THERE WAS NOT. THERE WAS A GENERAL FEELING

THAT--YOU KNOW, WE HAD A GOOD DELEGATION.

A WHAT REASONS DID YOU GIVE TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS

AND TO YOUR COLLEAGUES WITH RESPECT TO THE MAKING OF MULTI-

MEMBER D I STR I CTS FROM MECKLENBURG ?

. A I DIDNIT HAVE TO GIVE AN EXCUSE BECAUSE I.IO ONE

PRIOR TO THE FEBRUARY 4 PUBLIC HEARING--NO ONE EVER CONTACT

ME FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY ASKING FOR ANY KIND OF DISTRICT

CHANGE.

,.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THE QUESTION WAS, WHAT

REACT.I ON ?

A EXCUSE

A WHAT I

WHY DID YOU TAKE

MEMBER DISTRICTS?

ME.

IM TRYING TO GET TO IS WHAT WERE YOU--

THE POSITION YOU DID OPPOSING SINGLE

BECAUSE I FELT THAT WE HAD A COHESIVE, EFFECTIVE

DELEGATION W}lICH WAS REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL THE PEOPLE, BOTH

BLACK AND WHITE IN CHARLOTTE AND MECKLENBURG COUNTY. I ALS

FELT TIJAT I F WE CARVED UP MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO CSEATE ANY

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, WE WOULD DIMINISH THE INFLUENCEo,

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THOSE CONSTITUENTS WOULD HAVE ON THE DELEGATION AT LARGE.

I THOUGHT ALSO THAT AN 8 MEMBER DELEGATION

PROVIDED B ACCESS POINTS FOR ANY CITIZEN IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY TO CONTACT US. AND I FEEL THIS DOES GUARANTEE THAT

THEY CAN BE HEARD, BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS GOING TO BE

SYMPATHETIC T..lITH THEM. THOSE THINGS ENTERED INTO MY

DELIBERATION BEFORE I DECIDED TO VOTE

A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE REPRESENTING MECKLENBURG COUN

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER. OR NOT YOUR BLACK

CONSTITUENTS HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO YOU AS A LEGISLATOR AS DO

YOUI, WHITE CONSTITUENTS?

A WELL, OF COURSE, AS A LEGISLATOB, I HOPE THAT I

DO REPRESENT THEM ALL AND I HAVE NEVER, NEVER TURNED DOWN

ANYONE WHO I^/ISHED TO BE HEARD WHEN THEY WANT To TALK WITH

ME AS A LEGiSLATOR OR PERSONALLY.

. I NEED TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT BLACKS HAVE BEE
a

VERY SUCCESSFUL IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY AS FAR AS ACHIEVING---

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : -. THE QUEST I ON NOW,

WITNESS, WAS WHETHER, IN YOUR OPINION, BLACKS HAVE ACCESS

TO YOU EQUALLY WITH WHITES AS A REPRESENTATIVE.

A YES, SIR. THEY DO.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A IN THE HISTORY OF BLACK SUCCESS IN ELECTIVE

OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY FORM ANY PART OF YOUR VIEWS

WITH RESPECT TO CONTINUING TO SUPPORT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

1163

Y,

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MS. GUINIEF.:

JUDGE PHI LLI PS:

IN THAT QUESTION.

oB.J ECT I ON, LEAD I NG .

THERE WAS SOME OF THAT

MR. LEONARD: LET ME REPHRASE IT.

A WHAT, IF ANY, CONSIDERATION DID YOU GIVE IN

REACHING YOUR CONCLUSIONS TO THE HISTORY OF BLACK POLITIEAL

SUCCESS IN THE COUNTY?

A I GAVE A GREAT DEI\L OF CONSIDERATION BECAUSE I IV

BEEN PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN TRYING TO OPEN UP THE SYSTEM TO

BLACKS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS. AND

1 
T.HINK BLACKS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN 

^PARTICIPATING 
IN THE

SYSTEM.

A GIVE THE COURT SOME DETAIL ABOUT THAT SUCCESS.

A WELL, WHEN THIS QUESTION CAME UP OF SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTS, I RECALL THAT WE HAD AT THAT TIME 3

BLACK,.SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS ALL TI-TCTTO AT LARGE FROM

MECKLENBURG COUNTY WHIC; COMPRISES THE 
'6TH 

HOUSE DISTRICT.

I RECALL THAT WE HAD A BLACK.MAYOR PRO TEM, WHO WILL

PROBABLY BE MAYOR NEXT TIME, ELECTED AT LARGE_--

MS. WINNER: I ' LL OBJECT TO THE

SPECULATION AS TO WHAT SOMEBODY MAY BE IN THE FUTURE, AND

MOVE TO STRIKE THAT PORTION.

THE OBJECTION IS.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

SUSTAINED, AND THAT ANSWER l/(ILL BE STRIKEN.

A I RECALL THAT WE HAD 2 BLACK COUNCILMEN ELECTED

C,

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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PI'OENIX, ARIZONA

FROM DISTRICTS, THAT WE HAD A BLACK COUNTY COMMISSIONIER

ELECTED COUNTYWIDE FROM THE ]6TH HOUSE DISTRICT CONSTITUENC

WHO WAS THE SECOND BLACK ELECTED IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY FOR

THAT COUNTYWIDE OFFICE.

I ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE HAD 2

CANDIDATES RUNNING--BLACK CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR THE HOUSE

AT THAT TIME, AND I FELT AND FEEL THAT THEY CAN BE ELECTED

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY. THAT INFLUENCED ME.

a Now VJHAT, IF ANY, CONSTDERATION DID YOU GIVE TO

YOUR OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL CAREER IN COMING TO THE

coNqLUsroN You CAME To?

A I GAVE VERY LITTLE BECAUSE I 'M NEVER SURE WHETHE

I'LL BE A CANDIDATE AGAIN. AND FURTHER, A5 A MEMBER OF THE

COMMITTEE DRAWING THE DISTRICT LINES, I CERTAINLY COULD

HAVE HAD SOME INPUT IN DRAWING A DISTRICT FAVORABLE TO ME

IF THAT WAS THE WAY I WANTED TO GO.

A TELL THE COURT HOW YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THIS

DELEGATION OVER THE YEARS RELATES TO THE QUESTION OF ITS

EFFECTIVENESS IN REPRESENTING NOT ONLY THE POLITICAL UNITS

IN THE COUNTY, BUT THE CONSTITUENCY OF THE DISTRICT AS A

WHOLE.

A I BELIEVE THAT OUR MULTI-MEMBER AT LARGE

DELEGATION IS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE IN REPRESENTING OUR

CONSTITUENTS, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE, MALE AND FEMALE, AND

EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE IN REPRESENTING THE INTEREST OF THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CITY AND COUNTY, WHICH

a Do You HAVE

LEGISLATOR FROM A MULTI

TO INFLUENCE HIS OR HER

A REPRESENTATIVE FROM A

YOU HAVE AN OPINION?

l^/E ALSO REPRESENT

AN OPINION AS TO

-.14EMBER DISTRICT

COLLEAGUES TO A

SINGLE MEMBER DI

WHI:THER OR NOT A

HAS THE ABILITY

GREATER DEGREE THAN

STRICT DOES? DO

a

YES, I DO HAVE AN OPINION.

TELL THE COURT WHAT THATr OPIN.ION I S.

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

OBJ ECT I ON .

OVERRULED.

I HAVE FOUND IN MY --NOW MY FOURTH TERM THAT IT

CERTAINLY IS BENEFICIAL TO HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE REPRESENTI

A DISTRICT BECAUSE I THINK LEGISLATIVE INFLUENCE EXPANDS

GEOMETR ICALLY, NOT NUMER ICALLY.

FOR EXAMPLE, EACH OF US.CAN TOUCH

OTHER PEOPLE, AND THAT HAS GREAT WEIGHT WHEN

TO PASS LOCAL LEGISLATION SPECIFICALLY.

ONE

ONE

OR TWO

IS TRYING

TELL THE COURT SPECIFICALLY HOW THE MECKLENBURG

DELEGATION HANDLES LOCAL LEGISLATION.

AFTER WE ARE ELECTED IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTION,

WE GENERALLY MEET WITH THE VARIOUS ELECTED BODIES--COUNTY

coMMISSIONERS, CITy COUNCIL, SCHOoL BOARD, AND WHOMEVER

WISHED TO MEET WITH US, AND CONSIDER WHAT LEGISLATION THEY

WANT US TO PRESENT IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. WE TAKE A VOTE

ON IT AS TO WHETHER OR NOT WE WILL INTRODUCE SUCH

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LEGISLATION. AND WE ADHERE TO THE UNIT RULE THAT MAKES

US VERY STONG INDEED, BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE B VOTES

GOING IN, GENERALLY. WE DISCUSS THE MER-ITS OF THE LEGISLA.

TION, AND SINCE WE DO ADHERE TO THE UNIT RULE, IF ANYONE

OPPOSES IT, THEY ARE FORBIDDEN TO LOBBY ACTIVELY, PUBLICLY

OR PRIVATELY AGAII'JST THAT LEGISLATION.

OF COURSE, THEY MAY VOTE AGAINST IT ON THE FLOOR

BUT IT DOES BIND THAT DELEGATION TOGETHER. AND IT HAS

SUBSTANTlAL STRENGTH.

A WAS THERE A TIME WHEN THE MECKLENBURG DELEGATION

DID,NOT FOLLOW THE UNIT RULE?

A YES; THERE WAS.

A WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF-_IN RESPECT TO LOCAL

LEGISLATIOI'I I,/HEN YOU DIDNTT FOLLOW THE UNIT RULE?

A WE WERENIT VERY STRONG. AND AS A MATTER OF FACT,

DURING THE REDISTRICTING HEARINGS, I WAS KIDDED BY SOME

MEMBERS WHO HAD BEEN HERE A LONG TIME AGO WHEN WE DIDN'T

OBEY THE UN I T RULE . THEY ALVTAYS TOLD ME THAT UNT I L

RECENTLY MECKLENBURG CANCELED . EACH OTHER I S VOTES BECAUSE

THEY SIMPLY SPLIT. AND IT WASNIT A VERY EFFECTIVE

DELEGATION, BUT I BELIEVE WEIVE REMEDIED THAT.

A I CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 45

AND ASK 'YOU I F YOU CAN IDENT I FY THAT, PLEASE.

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 45 WAS

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 87 6.157,1

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Box 2tl(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES, I CAN.

A TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT THAT IS.

A ITIS A LOCAL BILL WHICH WOULD ALLOW MECKLENBURG

COUNTY TO WAIVE THE TENURE PROVTSIONS FOR SCHOOL TEACHERS

FOR A LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME. IT'S A PILOT PROJECT.

A DID THAT BILL BECOME CONTROVERSIAL IN THE

LEG I SLATURE ?

A IT WAS EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL BECAUSE MANY

PEOPLE FELT IT WAS JUST A FORERUNNER OF A STATEWIDE LAW.

A AND WAS THAT BILL A LOCAL BILL?

A YES, IT WAS.

A AND I^/HAT WAS THE OUTCOME OF THE LEGISLATIVE

ACTION ON IT?

A WELL, AFTER MUCH DEBATE AND POLITICAL MANEUVERIN

IT IS NOW RATiFIED WHICH WILL GIVE MECKLENBURG COUNTY AN

oPPOR.TUNITY TO EXTEND Tl-rE PROBATIONTAnV pERIOD FOR TEACHERS

AND TO AI/'/ARD MERIT INCREASES.

A AND DID THE ENTIRE DELEGATION SUPPORT THAT

LEGISLATION?

A THEY DID.

A WHAT IS YOUR VIEW AND OPINION WITH RESPECT TO

THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRlCT DELEGATIONIS IMPACT ON YOUR

COMMUNITY? NOT THE POLITICAL COMMUNITY, BUT THE COMMUNITY

AS A WHOLE?

A WELL, I BEL I EVE, S I NCE WE ARE A MULT I -MEMBER

G-

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFF|CE, RArEtGr{, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DELEGATION, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SATISFY THE REQUESTS

FROM OUR COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, BOTH IN A PERSONAL WAY AND

IN OFFICIAL LEGISLATIVE I^/AY. WHEN PEOPLE APPROACH US FROM

THE COMMUNITY--I 'M NOT SURE I,./HAT YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU,

BUT---

a Do you FIND--DO yOU HAVE AN OPINTON AS TO WHETHE

OR NOT THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT DELEGATION'S INFLUENCE

GOES BEYOND.JUST THE LEGISLATURE AS SUCH INTO THE COMMUNITY

REACHES INTO THE COMMUNITY?

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

I OBJECT TO LEADING.

I BELIEVE YOU ARE HAVING

A LITTLE TROUBLE WITH YOUR LEADING HERE, MR. LEONARD. YOU

DONIT SEEM TO BE TOO SUCCESSFUL.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DO YOU DEAL, AS A DELEGATiON, WITH MEMBERS OF TH

CITY,COUNCIL?

A YES, WE DO.

A ARE THERE I SSUES -I.'/HI CH AR I SE AT T IMES WHERE THE

ENTIRE DELEGATION DEALS WITH THE ENTIRE COUNCIL?

A YES.

A CAN YOU GIVE TIE COURT SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT?

A I ALREADY THOUGHT I'D ANSWERED THAT ONE, BUT I

WILL DO SO. WE MEET AS AN OFFICIAL DELEGATION WITH ANY

GROUP, INCLUDING CITY COUNCIL IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WHEN

I^/E ARE ITEQUESTED TO DO SO. WE GENERALLY MEET IN A BODY WITo,
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PI-|oENIX, ARIZONA

THEM I N CHARLOTTE-MECKLEl..IBURG BEFORE WE COME HERE, AND

WE CAUCUS WEEKLY IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHILE LOCAL BILLS

ARE STiLL UNDER CONSIDERATION.

A I THINK YOU'VE ANSWERED THAT.

A ALL RIGHT.

A WHO IS CURRENTLY THE MAYOR PRO TEM IN CHARLOTTE?

A HARVEY GANTT.

A AND HE'S BLACK, IS HE NOT?

A HE IS.

a AND HOW DO yOU a:' ELECTED MAYOR pRO TEM?

YOU RUN AT LARGE AND YOU GET THE LARGEST NUMBER

OF VOTES CAST.

A IN OTHER WORDS, A CANDIDATE RUNNING AT LARGE

WHO GETS THE MOST VOTES BECOMES AUTOMATICALLY THE MAYOR PRO

TEM?

, A YES.

A HOW MANY WHITE COUNCILMEN ARE ELECTED AT LARGE

IN CHARLOTTE?

A THERE ARE 4 COUNCILMEN ELECTED AT LARGE IN

CHARLOTTE.

A HOW MANY ARE WHITE AND HOW MANY ARE BLACK?

A CURRENTLY ] ARE WHITE AND ONE IS BLACK,

A GANTT I S THE ONLY BLACK?

A YES.

a NOW LET I S TALK ABOUT CAMPA I GN I r'lc. WHAT ARE YOU-

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAATN OFF|CE, RATE|GH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHATIS YOUR PRACTICE PERSONALLY IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY

DURING CAMPAIGNS? HOW-_TELL THE COURT HOW YOU GO ABOUT

GETT ING VOTES.

A WELL, IIM ACTIVE ALL THE TIME, WHICH HELPS A LOT

BECAUSE IT GIVES ME NAME RECOGNITION. AND WHEN I'M

CAMPAIGNING, I RUN A VERY LOW BUDGET CAMPAIGN. I CAMPAIGN

PERSONALLY. I GO INTO THE 11] PRECINCTS WE HAVE--AS MANY

OF THEM AS I POSSIBLY CAN, OR I HAVE MY WORKERS TO GO INTO

THOSE PREC I NCTS AND DROP L I TERATURE . AND I^,HEN THE ocCAS I oN

ARISES, MEET CONSTITUENTS.

I 'VE PURSUED THIS PRACTICE SINCE Ig76 AND I

CONTINUE TO DO SO, BECAUSE I DONIT RAISE A LOT OF MONEY TO

GET ELECTED.

DO YOU CAMPAIGN IN THE BLACK COMMUNITIES IN

MEC KLENBURG ?

. A I ALWAYS I DEPTT.TO Or'r THEM HIGHLY

COURT SPECIFICALLY SOME OF THE EXAMPLES

IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN MECKLENBURG

A TELL THE

OF HOW YOU CAMPAIGN

COUNTY.

A I HAVE BLACK CONSTITUENTS WHO DONATE MONEY TO

ME TO PUT YARD SIGNS IN THEIR YARD, GIVE COFFEES,

THEIR HOMES WHEN THEY ARE HAVING OTHER FUNCTIONS,

LIKE IN THE WHITE COMMUNTTY WE HAVE BLACK CANDIDATES.

ME,

ALLOW

ME IN

JUST

HA

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH AN ENTERPRISE IN CHARLOTTE

CALLED THE EXCELSIOR CLUB?o,
a P. O. Eor l'altt
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.1571

PFOENIX, ARIZOT.JA

A I AM.

a wHo owNS THAT.

A .J I MMY MCKEE, A GOOD FR I END.

A IS HE WHITE OR BLACK?

A H.EIS BLACK.

A AND HAVE YOU CAMPAIGNED WITH OTHER BLACKS AT THE

EXCELS I OR CLUB?

A OFTEN.

A TELL THE COURT THE NAMES OF SOME OF THEM.

A t^/ELL/ MOST RECENTLY, PHIL BERRy,.JIM RICHARDSON

AND,THE ENTiRE DELEGATION CAMPAIGNED IN THE LAST ELECTION.

BUT EVERY ELECTION, WHETHER OR NOT BLACKS ARE RUNNING, .JIMM

MCKEE ENTERTAINS 2 OR ] TIMES DEMOCRATIC PARTY GROUPS AND

CANDIDATES SO THAT WE MIGHT HAVE A CHANCE TO MEET AND INTER

ACT WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

. a Do YOU KNOW FARL MOTLEY;

A VERY WELL.

A IS HE POLITICALLY.ACTIVE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A HE'S ALWAYS BEEN VERY HELPFUL TO ME.AND AS A

MATTER OF ACT HE WAS APPOINTED._.

A MS. BRENNAN, MY QUESTION IS, IS HE POLITICALLY

ACTIVE?

A YES, HE IS.

A IS HE WHITE OR BLACK?

A HEIS BLACK.

Q,,,

F ?. O. eq 2att0
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

{ l', .1L(,3
A AND HAS HE RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE?

A YES, HE HAS.

A AND HAVE YOU CAMPAIGNED WITH EARL MOTLEY?

A YES, I HAVE.

A TELL THE COURT WHO WILLIE..SMITH IS, IF YOU KNOW

WILLIE SMITH.

A WILLIE SMITH IS A BLACK SCHOOL TEACHER WHO IS

POLITICALLY ACTIVE.

A HAVE YOU RECEIVED SUPPORT FROM MOTLEY AND WILLIE

SMITH?

A YES, I HAVE.

A TELL THE COURT WHO BETTY HARRIS IS, PLEASE.

A BETTY HARRIS IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE

LOCAL HOUSING AUTHORITY.

A AND IS SHE BLACK?

.A YES, SHE I S.

A IS SHE POLITICALLY ACTIVE?

A YES, SHE I S.

A HAVE YOU CAMPAIGNED--HAS SHE SUPPORTED YOUR

CAMPA i GNS ?

A YES, SHE HAS.

a Now You MENTIONED--I THiNK YOU MENTIONED SOMETHI

ABOUT A SLATE AND ItD LIKE TO HAVE YOU LOOK AT DEFENDANTSI

EXHIBIT 24, AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT?

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 24

- 
,. O, Bor rtt{(!

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o,-l) i PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36',t9 876.457 |

PFOENIX, ARIZONA

L74
WAS MARKED FOR I DENT I F I CAT I ON. )

A YES, I CAN. THIS WAS AN AD WE RAN IN THE LAST

ELECTION.

A THAT IS AN AD FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION?

A YES, IT IS.

a rN 1982?

A YES.

A I NOTE, MS. BRENNAN, THAT--WELL, LET ME ASK YOU,

ARE THERE ANY PICTURES OF ANY BLACKS ON TilNT AD?

A YES, THERE ARE 2, PHIL BERRY'AND JIM RiCHARDSON.

A THERE HAS BEEN TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE THAT

RUNNING THE PICTURES OF BLACKS IN CAMPAIGN ADS IS A RACIAL

APPEAL. WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH RESPECT TO RUNNING

THE PICTURES OF YOUR DELEGATION IN ELECTIONS IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY ?

MS. WINNER: I OB.JECT TO COUNSEL I S

MISCHARACTERIZATION OF THE EVIDENCE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: - OVERRULED.

WI TNESS :

BY MR. LEONARD:

WOULD YOU RESTATE?

A WHAT IS YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THE USE OF

PICTURES BY SLATES OF CANDIDATES W.HICH INCLUDE BLACKS?

A SINCE I HAVE BEEN ACTIVE WE HAVE IN ONE GENRE OR

THE OTHER, USED SLATES TO ADVERTISE OUR TEAMS THAT WEIRE

SENDING TO RALEIGII. I THINK ITtS IMPERATIVE. AS YOU KNOW,

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832,9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PARTIES USE SLATES, AND I AM A PARTY WORKER. SO I THINK

IT IS IMPERATIVE TO PRESENT YOUR ENTIRE SLATE TO THE

COMMUNITY, BECAUSE IT STRENGHTENS THE WEAK CANDIDATES AND

DOESNIT HURT THE STRONG ONES.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I

OFFER EXHIBIT 45, WHICH WAS THE LOCAL BILL THAT WAS TESTIFI

TO PREVIOUSLY INTO EVIDENCE AT THIS TIME.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : SUBMITTED WITHOUT

OBJECT ION.

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 45 WAS

ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONAITD :

IS THE AD SHE JUST TESTIFIED TO.

I OFFER EXHIBIT 24 WHICH

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

NO OBJECTION.

ADMITTED WITHOUT

OBJECTION.

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 24 WAS

ADMI TTED INTO EVI DENCE . )

MR. LEONARD:

A HAVE YOU CAMPAIGNED WITH BLACK CANDIDATES IN THE

WHITE COMMUNITY IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A YES, OUR ENTIRE DELEGATION DOES SO DURING THE

PRIMARIES AND IN GENERAL ELECTIONS, BECAUSE WE USUALLY ARE

I NV I TED AS A BODY.

A THERE WAS TESTIMONY EARLIER IN THIS COURTROOM

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Q= PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FROM A RESIDENT OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY THAT BLACKS HAVE

SOME DIFFICULTIES IN GETTING TO OR REACHING THE WHITE

COMMUNITY WHEN THEY ARE CANDIDATES FOR AN AT LARGE OFFICE

IN THE COUNTY. I{OULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT CONCLUSION?

A I WOULD NOT AGREE BECAUSE _-AND AGAIN, I I^IILL

SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE DELEGATI0N: WE Go WHEREVER WE ARE

I NVI TED.

MS. I^/INNER:

FOR THE ENTIRE DELEGATION.

I OB.JECT TO HER SPEAKING

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : SUSTA I NED AND I^IE ' LL

S TR I KE THAT PO.RT I ON OF THE AN SWER . LJUST ANSWER THE QUEST I o

THAT MR. LEONARD PUTS To YoU AND WE I,/ILL AVOID TROUBLE oF

THAT KIND.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WHAT K IND OF RECEPT ION DO YOU RECE I VE I,JHEN YOU

ARE CAMPAIGNING IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A AN EXCELLENT RECEPTION

A HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED IN CAMPAIGNING WITH

BLACKS IN THE WHITE COMMUNITIES OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY ANY

RACIAL OVERTONES TO THE EFFECT THAT THE BLACKS ARE IN THE

WHITE AREAS?

A I HAVE NOT EVER.

A HAVE YOU HEARD ANY RACIAL SLURS BEING MADE AGAINS

BLACK CANDIDATES?

A NO, I HAVE NOT.

- 
P. O. lq 2'ltg

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PItoENIX, ARIZONA

L77
A HAVE YOU EVER HAD COMMENTS FROM YOUR I^/HITE

CONSTITUENTS OUTSIDE OF THE PRESENCE OF BLACKS ABOUT

BRINGING BLACKS INTO THE WHITE COMMUNITIES OF MECKLENBURG ?

A NO, I HAVE NOT.

A HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THAT

SUBJECT BY WHITE RESIDENTS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A NO, I HAVE NOT.

A HAVE YOU EVER PERCEIVED WHAT YOU BELIEVED WERE

TO BE INTIMIDATIONS OF BLACK CANDIDATES IN CAMPAIGNING IN

THE WHITE COMMUNITIES?

A NO, I HAVE NOT.

A MS. BRENNAN, IN YOUR MANY YEARS IN POLITICS IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR

NOT BLACK CANDIDATES HAVE AS OPEN AN ACCESS TO THE WHITE

COMMUNITIES AS WHITE CANDIDATES DO?

. MS. WINNER: UNLESS THERE IS A

FOUNDATION THAT SHOWS FIER ABILITY TO OBSERVE THE INVITATION

WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES RECEIVE AND THE SOLICITATIONS WHICH

BLACK CANDIDATES RECEIVE, I OBJECT TO THE QUESTION.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : OVERRULED ON THE BASIS

OF HER TESTIMONY AS TO HER CAMPAIGNING ACTIVITIES.

BY MR, LEONARD:

A THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?

A YES, I DO.

A WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT WHAT THAT OPINION IS?

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PI-OENIX, ARIZONA

Iil (8
A I BELIEVE THAT IN CAMPAIGNS THAT I IVE

PARTICIPATED IN IN THE PAST 20 YEARS, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE

COMMUNITIES OPEN UP THEIR COMMUNITIES TO CANDIDATES OF THE

OTHER RACE. AND I HAVE SEEN NOTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

A AND HAVE YOU, DURING THE COURSE OF THOSE YEARS,

SUPPORTED BLACK CANDIDATES?

A YES, I HAVE.

A JUST NAME A FEW FOR THE COURT.

,A HARVEY GANTT, ARNIE SHUFORD,.JIM POPE, BOB WALT

A HAVE YOU CONTRIBUTED MONEY TO THEIR CAMPAIGNS?

A TO AT LEAST 3 OF THOSE I+.

A HAVE YOU HELPED AND ASSISTED THEM IN THEIR

CAMPAIGN ACTIVITIES?

A YES. YES, I HAVE.

A TELL THE COURT JUST BRIEFLY, MS. BRENNAN, WHAT

YOUR EXPER I ENCE I S 14I TH. RESPECT TO THE AB I L I TY OF BLACK

PEOPLE TO REGISTER AND HAVE ACCESS TO THE POLITICAL PROCESS

IN THE COUNTY_-AND PLEASE, BREIFLY.

A BRIEFLY, DURING THE PAST 20 YEARS, I HAVE

PARTICIPATED IN HELPING TO OPEN UP THE PROCESS FOR BLACKS

AND EVEP.YONE ELSE BEGINNII.,IG IN 1963 AND t64 PRIOR TO THE

VOTING RIGHTS ACT. WE PUT ON A SUBSTANTIAL REGISTRATION

DRIVE WITH THE HELP OF DR. HAWKINS, WHO HAD A FOUNDATION

GRANT TO DO THAT.

I HAVE CONSiSTENTLY, IN ALL MY DEMOCRATIC PARTY

- 
P. O.8d 2ilB

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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, R,AIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

INVOLVEMENT, SUPPORTED WIDE OPEN REGISTRATION AND

PARTICIPATION IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AND CONTINUE TO DO

so.

a YOU MENT I ONED DR . REG I NALD HAWK I NS.. AND t^/HO I S

HE?

A HEIS A DENTIST, A BLACK POLITICAL LEADER FROM

CHARLOTTE, WHO WAS EXTREMELY ACTIVE DURING THE '6OIS AND

EARLY '7OIS.

A THERE HAS BEEN TESTIMONY PREVIOUSLY WITH RESPECT

TO THE CANDIDACY OF BERTHA MAXWELL IN THE 1980 DEMOCRATIC

PRIMARY. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CAMPAIGN THAT BERTHA

MAXWELL RAN IN 19BO?

A I 'M FAMILIAR ONLY FROM JUST OBSERVATION DURING

THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN.

A DID YOU DISCUSS WITH MRS. MAXWELL ANY ASPECTS OF

HER CAMPAIGN?

A CASUALLY, AS WE WOULD MEET AT CAMPAIGN MEETINGS.

I CAN RECALL ONCE I/'/HEN-- I T WAS Ql,lI TE LATE I N THE CAMPA I GN

AND I TOLD HER SHE REALLY OUGHT TO CAMPAIGN MORE IN THE

WHITE COMMUNITY. AND I THINK SHE DID START CAMPAIGNING IN

THE WHITE COMMUNITY AT THAT TIME

A AND DID TI.IERF, SOMET IME LATE IN THE CAMPAI GN-_

EXCUSE ME. DID MRS. MAXWELL SUFFER SOME PERSONAL FAMILY

TRAGEDY THAT IN YOUR OPINION CAUSED HER CAMPAIGN TO CHANGE?

MS. WINNER: OB.IECT I ON .

F P, O, lor a|tl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL---

MR. LEONARD: LET ME WITHDRAW THE QUESTION. IT

I S LEAD ING.

a Do you HAVE AN OPTNION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THER

WAS ANY INCIDENT WHICH OCCURRED IN THE CAMPAIGN WHICH CAUSE

HER TO CHANGER HER CAMPAIGN TACTICS?

A LATE Il.J THE CAMPA I GN .

a Do You HAVE AN OPINION?

A YES, I DO.

A WHAT WAS IT?

A LATE IN THE CAMPAIGN MRS. MAXWELLIS MOTHER DIED.

AND IN LIEU OF APPEARING AT CAMPAIGN APPEARANCES HERSELF,

SHE SENT A SURROGATE. THAT IS NOT ALI^/AYS THE MOST DESIRABL

BUT I THINK SHE DID WHAT SHE HAD TO DO.

A DO YOU KNOW JAMES RICHARDSON?

.A VERY WELL.

A WHAT IS YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO HIS

CAMPAIGN FOR TI+E GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN Ig82?

MS . I,JI NNER :

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

OBJECTION.

I DONIT KNOW WHETHER

YOUR QUESTION ASKED--OB.JECTION SUSTAINED.

BY LEONARD:

A DID YOU OBSERVE MR. RICHARDSON'S CAMPAIGN IN

THE 1982 ELECTION?

A YES, I DID.

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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a WHAT rs YouR oPrNIoN AS TO WHETHER OR NoT

THAT CAMPAIGN WAS EFFECTIVE?

A WELL, I HAVE AN OPINION. IT WAS NOT AS EFFECTIV

AS HE WOULD HAVE LIKED, BECAUSE HE DID LOSE BY A SLIM VOTE.

A WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE WITH RESPECT TO

WHY THE CAMPAIGN WAS NOT EFFECTIVE?

A WELL, IF I WERE ADVISING MR. RICHARDSON--AND I

REALLY DID NOT ADVISE HIM UNLESS I WAS ASKED. I CERTAINLY

WOULD HAVE USED MO.qE MEDIA, FEWER LETTERS, ET CETERA.

A DID YOU FINANCIALLY SUPPORT JAMES RICHARDSON?

A YES, I DID

MR. LEONARD: ' .. MAY I HAVE JUST . A MOMENT

TO CONFER?

(PAUSL. ) . 
I

.MR. LEONARD : THANK YOU MS. BRENNAN.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

C R O S S -E X A M I N A T I O N 11:50 A.M.

BY MS. GUiNIER:

A MS. BRENNAN, I BELIVE THAT YOU TESTIFIED ON

DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT YOU OPPOSED SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS AFTER YOU CONSULTED WITH YOUR DELEGATION, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND YOU SAID YOU POLLED MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATIO

- 
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AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36.t9 876.157 |

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

118 2
A YES.

A AND YOU SAID WE AGREE WE OUGHT TO RETAIN

DISTRICTS AS THEY WERE?

A OUR DISTRICT, YES.

A AND YOU SAID THE GENERAL FEELING IN THE DELEGATI

IS THAT YOU HAD A GOOD DELEGATION?

A YES.

A AND THAT YOU HAD A COHESIVE DELEGATION THAT WAS

REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PEOPLE OF MECKL.ENBURG?

A YES.

, A AND AT THE TIME THAT YOU POLLED THE DELEGATION,

THIS WAS PRIOR TO YOUR VOTING ON A DISTRICTING PLAN FOR

MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A I POLLED THEM WHEN SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

BECAME AN ISSUE.AND I DONTT REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE.

A DID YOU POLL ANYBODY ELSE?

A NO. NO, I DID NOT.

A AND AT THE TIME YOL,T I4ADE YOUR DECISION THERE

WERE NO BLACK MEMBERS ON THE DELEGATION IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY, ]S THAT CORRECT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A NOW AT THE TIME YOU POLLED THE MEMBERS OF THE

DELEGATION, THERE WERE B MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION, IS

THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

F P. O.8or 2!i*l
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZOi{A

11 B3
A AND EVEN IF THOSE 8 MEMBERS HAD ALL BEEN

ELECTED FROM SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, YOU COULD HAVE POLLED

ALL OF THOSE MEMBERS JUST AS EASILY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A OH, YES.

A AND EVEN IF ALL OF THOSE MEMEBERS HAD BEEN

ELECTED FROM SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, THE DELEGATION COULD

STILL HAVE IMPOSED A UNIT RULE, IS THAT CORRECT?

A NO. I WOULD BEG TO DIFFER, BECAUSE THE

CONSTITUENCIES COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT AND LEGISLATORS

RESPOND TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS, AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN

NO OBLIGATION IN MY OPINION.

A IS THE UNIT RULE A VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT AMONG THE

MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION ?

A YES, IT IS.

A NOW YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH

HARVEY GANTT'S RACE FOR MAYOR IN 
'gIg, 

IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A DO YOU THINK THE FACT THAT HE WAS BLACK WAS A

FACTOR IN HIS DEFEAT IN THAT PARTICULAR ELECTION?

A I DO NOT THINK SO. I THINK THAT I^IE HAD 2 STRONG

AGRESSIVE CANDIDATES. YOU KNOW, I FOLLOWED IT BECAUSE I

KNEW THEM BOTH WELL.

A YOU DONIT THINK THAT RACE PLAYED ANY ROLE IN

THAT PART I CULAR ELECT ION?

A I THINK RACE COULD HAVE PLAYED A ROLE INe
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PIloENIX, ARIZONA

STIMULATING HEAVY BLACK TURNOUT, AND I THINK IT DID PLAY

THAT ROLE. BUT I DONIT THINK THAT RACE DEFEATED HARVEY

GANTT.

IF A NON-INCUMBENT RAN FOR AN ELECTION AT LARGE

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WOULDNIT IT COST THEM A SUBSTANTIAL

SUM OF MONEY TO GET NAME RECOGNITION THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY

I THINK IT COULD COST THEM A LOT OF MONEY. BUT

I RAN AS A NON-INCUMBENT AND I,IE HAD SEVERAL OTHER RUNS AS

NoN-ENCUMBENTS WHO SPENT AS LITTLE AS $],OOO. BUT THEY

RUN OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL THEY GET THAT NAME RECOGNITI

SO IT COULD COST ANY AMOUNT YOU WISH TO SPEND. BUT YOU CAN

YOU SAID THAT IT I,JOULD

$2o, ooo ro GET ELECTED

.A YES, I MAY HI.VE SAID THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER

USING THAT FIGURE, BUT I LOOK AT SOME OF OUR NON-INCUMBENTS

WHO RAN AND WERE ELECTED AND-WHO SPENT SUBSTANTIALLY MORE

THAN THAT. BUT I DON'T THINK THEY HAD TO. I THINK IT

DEPENDS ON THE TIME YOU I^,ISH TO GIVE IT.

A NOW YOU SAY YOU IVE BEEN ADVISING .J IM RICHARDSON

ON HIS CAMPAIGN IN 1982. YOU WOULD HAVE ADVISED HIM TO USE

MORE MEDIA COVERAGE. IS THAT I'/HAT YOU SAID?

YES, I WOULD.

HOW MUCH MORE PIEDIA COVERAGE WOULD YOU HAVE

DO I T CHEAPER.

A AND IN FACT, HAVENIT

COST A NON-INCUI'1BENT AS MUCH AS

FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ADVISED HIM TO USE?

A I ALWAYS--WHEN A CANDIDATE ASKS FOR MY ADVICE,

I GIVE IT, AND I NEVER VOLUNTEER IT. BUT IIM ALWAYS HAPPY

TO COOPERATE, YOU KNOW, WITH MY PARTY.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

WI TNESS :

.JUST ANSWER THE QUEST I ON

I BELIEVE HE SPENT IN TH

NEIGHBORHOOD OF $t,500. A GOOD RULE OF THUMB WOULD BE TO

PUT ABOUT $9,OOO OF THAT ON MEDIA. I DONIT KNOW HOW HE

SPLIT HIS MONEY IN THAT I HAVENIT REVIEWED IT FOR THIS

puRposE. BUT I WOULD SPEND ABOUT, YOU KNOW, $9,OOO ON

MEDIA BECAUSE TIJAT IS WHERE IT IS NOW.

A ARE THERE ANY ALL I,.JH I TE SOC IAL CLUBS I N

CHARLOTTE?

A I'M REALLY NOT COMPETENT TO ANSWER THAT.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : COUNSEL, DOES THIS

TOUCH.ON ANYTHING THAT WAS ON DIRECT EXAMINATION? THERE IS

PLENTY IN THE RECORD ABOUT IT.

MS. GUINIER: - YES, IT DOES, YOUR HONOR

BECAUSE I BELIEVE COUNSEL ASKED THE t//ITNESS WHETHER SHE

HAD BEEN WITH BLACK CANDIDATES WHO HAVE CAMPAIGNED IN THE

WHITE COMMUNITY.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IF IT TOUCHES,

]T TOUCHES MOST TANGENTIALLY, BUT ASK ONE QUESTION. I

THINK WE KNOW THE ANSWER. I BELIEVE IT IS ABUNDANT IN THE

RECORD AND IT IS UNDISPUTED THAT THERE ARE SUCH CLUBS.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE DUPREE:

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

AND IN THE NEWSPAPERS.

GO AHEAD, ASK THE ONE

QUESTTON.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A HAVE YOU SEEN ANY BLACK CANDIDATES CAMPAIGNING

IN ANY OF THE ALL I^/HITE SOC IAL CLUBS IN CHARLOTTE?

A NO, BECAUSE I REALLY DONIT CAMPAIGN IN ALL

WHITE SOCIAL CLUBS IN CHARLOTTE.

A NOW YOU . TESTIFIED ABOUT A SLATE THAT THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY PUT IN THE NEWSPAPERS IN NOVEMBER OF

1982.

A I TESTIFIED ABOUT A SLATE, BUT I DID NOT SAY

THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PUT IT II.{. THE DEMOCRATIC

CANDIDATES PAID FOR IT THEMSELVES.

A IN FACT, ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHOSE PICTURES WERE

IN TH.E NEI^/SPAPER CHIPPED IN AND COf.TfnIBUTED TO THAT

PART I CULAR ADVERT IS ING?

A THIS IS NORMAL. .

a WHEN you sAY I'THIS IS NORMAL,T| YOU HAD NEVER

PARTICIPATED IN A SIMILAR ADVERTISEMENT OF A SLATE OF

CANDIDATES FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY PRIOR TO NOVEMEER OF

1982 , HAD YOU ?

A h/E HAVE ALWAYS HAD A SLATE FROM THE 1976 ON.

WEIVE HAD A SLATE DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE HAD.

WE WOULD EITHER HAVE A BROCHURE WITH ALL 8 PICTURES IN IT

F P. O.8or 2allE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN THE ISSUES, OR WEILL HAVE A SLATE IN AN INSERT IN THE

NEWSPAPER . AND I^/E I VE HAD THEM EVERY TWO YEARS WH I LE I I VE

BEEN RUNNING AND WHILE I IVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE PARTY.

a Now Do you CoNSTDER YoURSELF AMONG THE MORE

ATTLINED MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION TO THE INTERESTS OF THE

BLACK COMMUNITY?

A I TRY TO REMAIN SENSITIVE AND I --I CANIT COMPAR

MYATTUNEMENT TO THE OTHER 7 MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION.

A ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOU GET MORE VOTES FROM THE

BLACK COMMUNITY THAN OTHER MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION?

A I DO NOT GET MORE VOTES FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY

THAN OTHER I'IEMBERS OF THE DELEGAT I ON.

A DO YOU GET MORE VOTF.S FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY

THAN THE OTHER WHITE MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION?

A I DO NOT GET MORE VOTES FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY

THAN OTHER WHITE MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION.

A NOW AT THE TIME THE ISSUE OF SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS CAME UP IN THE PUBL]C HEARING, THAT WAS IN

FEBRUARY OF L9B2?

A YES.

A AND AFTER THAT PUBLIC HEARII..IG, IN FACT, THE

ENTIRE DELEGATION WAS INVITED TO MEET WITH MEMBERS OF THE

BLACK COMMUNITY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A WELL, THEY WERE INVITED IN A PERIPHERAL WAY IN

THAT I WAS CALLED LATE ON A FRIDAY AFTERNOON AND ASKED IF

F P. O. Bor 2irag
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I WOULD MEET WITH SOME BLACK PEOPLE IN CHARLOTTE. AND I

SAID I'D BE HAPPY TO. THEY SAID, I'WILL YOU ASK THE OTHER

MEMBERS OF THE DELEGAT I ON?il I SAI D, 'ryES, I b/ I LL . 'r AND

I CALLED THEM LATE ON FRIDAY NIGHT.

THOSE I COULD REACH HAD OTHER PLANS EXCEPT FOR ONE,

AND SHE AND I MET WITH A GROUP OF BLACK PEOPLE.

A THE OTHER PERSON WHO CAME TO THAT MEETING WAS

RUTH EASTERL ING?

A YES.

A NOW AT THE PUBL I C HEAR I NG, I,{ERE YOU PRESENT ?

A I WAS.

A AND YOU HEARD A I'JUMBER OF BLACK PEOPLE FROM ALL

OVER THE STATE TESTIFY II',I SUPPORT OF SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTS, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES, IT I S.

a AND ONE OF THE BLACK prOpr-e WHO TESTTFTED WAS

KELLY ALEXANDER, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A AND KELLY ALEXANDER IS FROM CHARLOTTE?

A YES.

A AND KELLY ALEXANDER SPOKE ON BEHALF OF THE

NAAC P ?

A YES, HE DID.

A AND HE SPOKE TN FAVOR OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

A YES.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NOW AT THE FEBRUARY 6 MEETING WHICH TOOK PLACE

AFTER THE PUBL I C HEAR ING/ .J IM R I CHARDSON WAS PRESENT, I S

THAT CORRECT?

A THATIS CORRECT.

A AND PHIL BERRY WAS PRESENT?

A UH-HUH.

A HARVEY GANTT WAS PRESENT?

A YES.

A AND SARA STEPHENSON WAS PRESENT?

A YES.

A AND RALEIGH BYNUM WAS PRESENT?

A YES.

A AND ARTHUR GRIFFIN WAS PRESENT?

A YES.

A AND THERE WERE A NUMBER OF BLACK LEADERS PRESENT

AT THAT MEETING?

A YES.

A ALMOST TO A PERSON; THE BLACK PEOPLE AT THAT

MEETING SPOKE OUT IN FAVOR OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, DID

THEY NOT?

MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I

OBJECT TO THAT. I THINK COUNSEL CAN ARTICULATE WITH GREATE

SPECIFICITY IF SHE IS TRYING TO DETERMINE THE PERCENTAGE

TI'IAN TtIE USE OF THE TERM IIALMOST TO A PERSON.II

JUDGE PH I LL I PS: WE I LL LET THE QUEST I ON

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COME IN. OBJECTION OVERRULED.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A DO YOU REMEMBER MY QUESTION?

A YES, I DO. AND I WILL SAY SEVERAL PEOPLE PRESEN

DIDNIT SAY ANYTHING. SEVERAL PEOPLE DID EXPRESS SUPPORT

FOR SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. AND AT LEAST ONE EXPRESSED

SUPPORT FOR THE CURRENT AT LARGE DISTRICT.

a AND WHO WAS THAT ONE PERSON?

A MALACHI GREEN.

A AND IS MALACHI GREEN THE ONLY PERSON YOU CAN

RECALL WHO SPOKE OUT IN FAVOR OF THE DISTRICTING SYSTEM AS

I T PRESENTLY EXI STED?

A I BELIEVE AT THAT MEETING HE'S THE ONLY ONE.

A NOW THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO SPOKE OUT IN FAVOR OF

SiNGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU THAT THEY

DID NOT LIKE THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT SCHEME FOR MECKLEN_

BURG COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT..

DISTR

A WELL, I IM NOT SURT THEY TOLD ME THEY DIDNIT LIKE

BUT THEY SAID THEY WOULD RATHER HAVE SINGLE MEMBER

I CTS.

A AND THEY THEY SUPPORTED THE LAWSUI

DISTRICTING SYSTEM FORTHAT HAD BEEN FILED

MECKLENBURG COUNTY,

A IIM NOT

MAY WELL HAVE BEEN.

LAWSUIT WAS MENTIONTD. IT

TOLD YOU THAT

TO CHANGE THE

DID THEY NOT?

SURE THAT THE

F P. O. aox 2ttril
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PREClSION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND THEY TOLD YOU THAT ONE OF THE REASONS

THAT THEY WERE IN FAVOR OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY IS THAT IN ORDER TO ELECT A CANDIDATE OF

THEIR CHOICE THE WAY THE SYSTEM PRESENTLY EXISTS, BLACKS

HAVE TO CONCENTRATE THEIR VOTES?

A I DOUBT THAT CONCENTRATION OR SINGLE-SHOOTING

I^/AS EVER MENTIONED IN THAT PARTICULAR MEETING.

A YOU DONIT RECALL THAT A NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE

COMPLAINED THAT BLACKS HAVE TO SINGLE-SHOOT IN ORDER TO

ELECT A BLACK CANDIDATE?

A I DONIT BELIEVE THAT THAT WAS EVER MENTIONED.

A WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN PHYLLIS LYNCH TESTIFIED

LAST WEEK IN THIS COURTROOM?

A YES, I WAS.

A WERE YOU PRESENT IdHEN SHE SAID THAT BLACKS HAVE

To SINGLE-SHO.T IN 
'RDER 

To ELECT ; CANDIDATE oF THEIR

CHOICE?

A YES, I WAS PRESENT WHEN SHE SAID THAT.

A AND YOU WERE PRESENT WHEN PHYLLIS LYNCH TESTIFIE

THAT THE REASONI BLACKS HAVE TO SINGLE_SHOOT ESPECIALLY IN

THE PRIMARIES IS BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME WHITE PEOPLE WHO

ARE RELUCTANT TO VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDIDAIE?

A I I,JAS PRESENT WHEN SI]E TEST I F I ED TO THAT.

A AFTER MS. LYNCH TESTIFIED, DID YOU TALK TO HER?

A YES, I DID.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WHEN SHE CAME OFF THE STAND?

A YES, I DID.

A AND D]DNIT YOU TELL HER THAT YOU WOULD BE DOING

THE SAME TH I NG I F YOU I^/ERE HER ?

A I SAID IF MY GOALS I^JERE HERS.

A NOW IN FEBRUARY OF 1982, AT THE MEETING THAT YOU

HAD AT THE CHARLOTTE YOUTH COUNCIL?

A YES.

a You ToLD THE BLACK pEOpLE WHO WERE SPEAKTNG ON

BEHALF OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT YOU WERE OPPOSED TO

CHANGING THE PRESENT PLAN, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A AND YOU TOLD THEM THAT THE .JUSTICE DEPARMENT HAS

BEEN h'ORKING WITH THE LEGISLATURE AND THAT THE LEGILATUREIS

PLA}{ WOULD PROBABLY BE APPROVED, I S THAT CORRECT ?

.A YES.

A AND YOU TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS ALL OVER BUT THE

SHOUTING, IS THAT CORRECT? WQRDS TO THAT EFFECT?

A YES, I DID, PROBABLY. I DONIT REALLY RECALL

SAYING THAT, BUT IF THEY SAY I DID, I PROBABLY DID.

A AND YOU SPOKE VERY FRANKLY?

A I ALVJAY S DO .

A AND YOU TOLD THEM, AND I IM PARAPHRASING AGAIN,

"WE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT GO I l.lc TO LET REPUBL I CANS GET I NTO

THE LEG I SLATI.JRE. II

F P. O. Bor 2alci
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NO, WELL,,PARAPHRASING, I WOULD NEVER HAVE

SAID IT THAT WAY. IT'S QUITE LIKELY THAT I SAID I WOULD

NOT WILLINGLY RELINQUISH SEATS TO REPUBLICANS.

A AND YOU SAID, AND IIM PAPAPHRASING AGAIN, THAT

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS WOULD OPEN THE DOORS TO REPUBLICANS

A WELL , IT DEPENDS ON HOtr./ THE D I STR I CTS ARE DRAWN .

I DOUBT THAT I SAID THAT, YOU KNOW. BUT IT WOULD CERTAINLY

DEPEND ON HOW THE DISTRICTS WERE DRAWN.

MS. GUINIER: MAYIHAVEAMOMENT,

PLEASE?

(pausr..r

BY MS. GUINIER:

A NOW AT THE TIME OF THIS MEETING, ONE OF THE

PRIMARY CONCERNS OF THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO WERE ASSEMBLED

WAS THEY HAD BEEN UNABLE TO ELECT A BLACK PERSON TO THE

HOUSE, OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM UTCTI-TruBURG COUNTY, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A I THINK THAT WAS THEIR CONCERN, BUT I tM NOT SURE

THAT IT IS WELL PLACED.

A MY QUESTION WAS THAT WAS ONE OF THE CONCERNS

THEY EXPRESSED TO YOU?

A YES.

A AND AGAIN, PARAPHRASING, DIDNIT YOU TELL THEM,

III./E ARE GoING To GET YoU A BLACK CANDIDATE THIS TIMEII?

A OH, NO. I CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER HAVE SAID THAT.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND THANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WE HAD 2 BLACK CANDIDATES PRESENT WHO I KNEW WOULD BE

CONDIDATES. PHIL BERRY ANNOUNCED TO ME THAT DATE THAT HE

WAS GOING TO BE A CANDIDATE AND.JIM RICHARDSON WAS ALREADY

AN ANNOUNCED CANDIDATE, AT LEAST TO HIS PERSONAL FRIENDS.

SO I KNOW THAT 2 CAND I DATES I{ERE RUNN I NG, SO I NEVER I^,OULD

HAVE SAID THAT.

A DID YOU SAY, AGAIN PARAPHRASING, THAT WE'RE GOIN

TO GET A BLACK PERSON ELECTED THIS TIME?

A I THOUGHT WE WOULD GET 2 ELECTED THIS TIME--THIS

PAST T I ME.

A DID YOU SAY SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT?

A YES, I PROBABLY DID.

A NOW YOUTVE BEEN QUOTED IN THE NEWS AND OBSERVER

IN SAYING THAT THE REASON THAT NO BLACKS HAD BEEN ELECTED

TO THE NORTH CAROLINA HOUSE FROM ME.CKLENBURG COUNTY WAS

THAT IN RECENT YEARS THE.RE HAD BEEN FEW BLACK CANDIDATES

RUNN I NG .

A THAT'S CORRECT.

A AND YOU WERE QUOTED AS GIVING AN EXAMPLE OF A

BLACK CANDIDATE WHO GOT CAUGHT IN THE BUSING CONTROVERST? .

A THATIS CORRECT.

A WHO WAS THAT CANDIDATE?

A J IM ROSS.

A AND VJHEN DID HE RUN?

A HE RAN IN ig70 wtTH ME, ALTHOUGH I LOST lN THE

F P. O. &r lAlal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PRIMARY. HE LOST IN THE GENERAL ELECTION THAT YEAR BECAUS

IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BUSING CONTROVERSY.

A IN YOUR OPINION, WAS HE A QUALIFIED CANDIDATE?

A YES, HE WAS.

A NOW YOU ALSO DESCRIBED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION

YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH DR. BERTHA MAXWELL WHO RAN FOR THE

HOUSE IN 1980. AND SHE WAS DEFEATED IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?

A YES.

A IN YOUR OPINION, IS SHE A QUALIFIED CANDIDATE?

A YES, SHE WAS.

A YOU I VE ALSO MENT i ONED .J I M R I CHARDSON AND THE

FACT THAT YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH HIS RUN FOR THE NORTH

CAROL I NA HOUSE . HE I,JON THE PR i MARY, D I D HE NOT ?

A YES, HE DID.

A AND HE LOST THE GENERAL ELECTION, IS THAT CORREC

A YES.

a AND THAT WAS 

'rN 
1gB2?

A YES.

A IN YOUR OPINION, WAS HE A QUALIFIED CANDIDATE?

A HIGHLY QUALI FI ED.

A YOU STATE YOU WERE ALSO FAMILIAR WITH JAMES PoLK

WHO RAN FOR THE SENATE. HE RAN FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY,

I S THAT CORRECT.

A YES.

A AND HE WAS NOMINATED IN THE PRIMARY, IS THAT

a P. O.8or 2El(!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36.l.9 876.a571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

CORRECT ?

A UH-HUH.

a AND l-tE LOST THE GENERAL ELECTTON?

A YES, HE DID.

A IN YOUR OPINION, WAS HE A QUALIFIED CANDIDATE?

A HE WAS.

A LJ I M BLACK I S A, MEMBER OF THE DELEGAT I ON AS

IT PRESENTLY EXISTS FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A YES.

A AND JIM BLACK WAS FIRST ELECTED IN 1980, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A UH-HUH.

a AND WHEN BERTHA MAXWELL RAN IN 1gg0,.JIM

BLACK ALSO RAN FOR THE HOUSE FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY IN THE

GENERAL ELECTION

A YES.

A AND THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT .JIM BLACK HAD

RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES/ IT WAS.

A AND LJ IM BLACK WAS ELECTED?

A YES, HE WAS.

A AND JIM BLACK IS WHITE?

A YES, HE I S.

A NOW AFTER THE PUBLIC HEARING TOOK PLACE ON

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FEBRUARY 4TH, L982, THE PLANS THAT THE |ICUSE PASSED AND

RESUBMITTED TO THE .JUSTICE DEPAR.TMENT WERE INTRODUCED, ISN I

THAT CORRECT ?

A YES, AND IIM SKETCHY, REALLY, ON DATES BECAUSE

I DIDNIT KEEP UP.

A IT WAS AFTER THE PUBLIC HEARING,, HOWEVER?

A YES.

A AND THOSE PLANS h!ERE MODIFIED SUBSEQUENTLY IN

COMMITTEE MEETINGS THAT TOOK PLACE ON FEBRUARY g, IS THAT

CORR ECT ?

A YES.

A AND THE HOUSE PLAN WAS EVENTUALLY PASSED ON

FEBRUARY 1 1, I S THAT CORRECT ?

A IN THII.JK SO.

A APPROXIMATELY?

A THEREABOUTS, YES.

A AT AIJYTIME AFTER FEBRUARY 4, D]D YOU MAKE AN

EFFORT TO INTRODUCE A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT PLAN FOR

MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A NO, I DID NOT.

A AT ANYTII4f AFTER YOUR FEBRUARY 6 MEET]NG AT THE

CHARLOTTE YOUTH COUNCIL DID YOU INTRODUCE A PLAN FOR

S INGLE MEMBER D I STR I CTS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A NO, I DID NOT.

MS. GuttitER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

a P. O. Sor 2llB
lJ Brhleh, Nm c.roiln. arctl



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R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 11:50 A.M:

BY MR. LEONARD:

A YOU SAID THAT YOU RECEIVED A CALL LATE ON

FRIDAY TO ATTEND THE MEETING WITH THE BLACK GROUP FROM

CHARLOTTE . I.JHERE WAS THE MEET ING HELD?

A IN CHARLOTTE.

A WHEN WAS THE MEETING HELD?

A SATURDAY MORNING, I BELIEVE,ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK.

A AND THIS IS THE DAY AFTER-_THE SATURDAY AFTER

THE FRIDAY NIGHT INVITATION?

A YES.

A WAS ARTHUR GII I FF I N, JR . AT THAT MEET I NG ?

A YE S, tJE WAS .

a I sHow You wHATrs BEEN---

WITNESS?

MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE

JUDGE PHILLIPS: - YOU MAY.

BY MR. LEOI.JARD :

A --DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 43 AND ASK IF YOU CAN

I DENT I FY THAT .

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 43 WAS

MARKED FOR IDENTI FICATION. )

A YES. IT IS A COPY OF A LETTER I RECEIVED FROM

MR. GRIFFIN.

PBECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND THAT LETTER COMMENTS UPON THE MEETING

THAT YOU JUST TESTIFIED TO THAT WAS HELD ON SATURDAY

MORI.I I NG ?

A YES.

MR. LEONARD:

EXH]BIT NO. 43 INTO EVIDENCE.

I OFFER DEFENDANTS I

MS. WINNER: I OBJECT. IT IS HEARSAY

IT IS CLEARLY HEARSAY. IF ITIS OFFERED FOR THE TRUTH OF

\^/HAT MR. GRIFFIN THOUGHT, THERE IS NO OTHER PURPOSE FOR

OFFER ING I T.

MR. LEONARD: NO, IF THE COURT PLEASE,

THE LETTER IS Of=FERED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOWING THE STATE

OF MIND OF A I.EGISLATOR WHO HAS HAD A MEETING WITH THESE

PEOPLE AND WHAT COMES OUT OF THAT MEETING AND WHAT SHE

FOCUSES ON.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THE LI..TTER W I LL BE

ADMITTED FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF PROVING THAT IT WAS

RECEIVED BY THIS LEGISLATOR AND THAT SHE READ ITS CONTENTS.

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 43 WAS

RECE I VED I NTO EV I DENCE . )

BY MR. LEONARD:

a NoI,/ IN YOUR OptNION, MS. BRENNAN, I S DR. MAXV'/ELL

AND MR. ROE MOTLEY, AND MR. POLK.-IN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN

l'IECKLENtIlJRG COUNTY IN l^tATCHING BLACKS RUN FOR--WIN AND LOSE

PUBLIC OFFICE, ARE THESE THE KIND OF CANDIDATES THAT IN

F P, O. &r 1l1(l
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PRECISION HEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YOUR OPINION HAVE A REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY TO BE

ELECTED IN THE FUTURE?

MS. WINNER:

ABOUT THE FUTURE.

I OB.JECT TO HER SPECULAT I

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

A YES.

OVERRULED.

MR. LEONARD: THAT I S ALL I HAVE.

MS. GU I N I ER : NO RECROSS .

EXAMINATION

BY JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

ll:.52 A.M.

A HAVING STATED THE BASIS OF ADMISSION WHICH

INCLUDED THE PROPOSITION THAT THE WITNESS HAD READ ITS

CONTENT, I DOUBT REALLY THAT SHE TESTIFIED ABOUT THAT. DID

YOU READ THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTER?

A I DID READ THE CONTENTS.OF THE LETTER.

A YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU TI]INK THERE IS AN

INHERENT --AND IIM PARAPHRASING--AN INHERENT STRENGTH IN THE

MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR REPRESENTATION?

A YES.

A DO YOU THINK IT IS SO VALUABLE A COMMODITY FOR

GOOD GOVERNMENT THAT THAT OUGHT TO BE THE MODEL FOR THE

ENTIRE STATE?

A I'D LIKE TO SPEAK.JUST FOR MY DISTRICT, BUT I

THINK IT IS AN ACCEPTABLE MODEL AND WAS, IN FACT, THE MODEL

FOR THE STATE FOR 150 YEARS. I THINK IT IS VERY GOOD.

() r' D./rLt l-t

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DO YOU THINK THAT THE ABILITY OF A NUMBER OF

REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE SAME DISTRICT TO POOL THEIR

STRENGTH IS SO POSITIVE A FACTOR IN GOOD GOVERNMENT I^/E

OUGHT DELIBERATELY TO CHOOSE THAT AS THE BASIC REPRESENTATI

FOR THE STATE?

A I THINK IT DOES CONTRIBUTE GREATLY TO GOOD

GOVERNMENT BECAUSE ONE SHARES NOT ONLY THE RESPONS I B I L I TY,

BUT THE SAME CONSTITUENCY IN THESE DISTRICTS.

MR. LEONARD: MAY MS. BRENNAN BE

EXCUSED?

MS. tJINNER:

MOMENT TO MAYBE ASK ONE QUESTION?

(PAuSE. )

MS. GUINIER:

QUE ST I ONS .

. .]UDGE PH I LL I PS :

MAY BE EXCUSED.

COULD WE HAVE JUST ONE

WE HAVE NO FURTHER

THAIJK YOU, MA I AM. YOU

(I,JI TNESS EX€USED -)

MR. LEONARD: THE DEFENSE CALLS VERN MALONE.

(wnrBEUPON,

VERNON MALONE

I^/AS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTI FIED AS

FOLLOWS: )

tsY MR. LEONARD:

a wouLD You s't-ATE YouR NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS,

E P. O. gor 2!6
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

Zti2
PLEASE ?

A I'M VERNON MALONE. I LIVE AT 2124 LINDHURST

DRIVE HERE IN RALEIGH.

A WHAT IS YOUR OCCUPATION, MR. MALONE?

A I.IM ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE NORTH CAROLINA

STATE SCHOOL FOR THE BLIND HERE IN RALEIGH.

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN WAKE COUNTY?

A ALL OF MY LIFE. I WAS BORN AND RAISED HERE NOT

MoRE THAN 10 MILES FRoM WHERE I str'nIGHT NoI/,J.

A ARE YOU CURRENTLY SERVING AS A MEMBER OF THE

WAKE COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD?

A YES.

A AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU SERVED ON THAT BOARD?

A SINCE I972.

. A AND HAS THE FORM OF THAT BOARD CHANGED SII.ICE YOU

WERE F IRST ELECTED?

A OH, YES, IT HAS. I WAS APPOINTED TO AN UNEXPIRE

TERM IN DECEMBER OF L972. I-RAN FOR THAT POSITION IN 1973

IN AN AT LARGE ELECTION. THE LEGISLATURE PASSES LEGISLA_

TION IN 1975, I GUESS, THAT MERGED THE RALEIGH-WAKE SCHOOL

SYSTEMS, AND I RAN IN A DISTRICT ELECTION IN I977. THEY

WERE KIND EI'IOUGH T O DO SOMETHING ELSE IN THE DISTRICT, AND

I THINK I RAN AGAIN IN 1981, AND WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO

RUN AGAIN THIS YEAR II'I WERE TO REMAIN IN THAT BODY.

A YOU HAVENIT MADE THAT DECISION?

r| P. O. Oor 26rct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A NO, IrM CLOSE.

A WHEN WAS THE FIRST BLACK ELECTED TO THE RALEIGH

SCHOOL BOARD--FOR THE I./AKE COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD ?

A I GUESS I WAS THE FIRST BLACK ELECTED TO THE

I^/AKE COUNTY BOARD AS IT IS CURREI'.ITLY COMPOSED. PRIOR TO

THAT, BLACKS HAVE BEEI.I ELECTED TO THE FORMER RALE I GH BOARD

OF EDUCAT ION.

A AND WHO WAS THE FIRST AND IN WHAT YEAR, DO YOU

RECALL ?

A I BELIEVE ELIZABETH COFIELD WAS THE FIRST ELECTE

TO THAT BODY IN 1968. I IM NOT SURE. I BELIEVE THATIS VERY

CLOSE TO THE YEAR. OR MAYBE ITIS BEEN'67, BUT IT WOULD

HAVE BEEN ABOUT THAT TIME.

A WAS YOUR FIRST ELECTION AFTER YOU h/ERE APPOINTED

THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAVE RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN WAKE

COUNTY AND RALEIGH?

A ASK THE QUESTION ONCE MORE. I IM NOT SURE I

UNDERSTOOD.

A IS THAT YOUR FIRST TRY FOR PUBLIC OFFICE?

A OH, YES. YES IT WAS, INDEED.

A I 'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU TELL THE COURT SPECIFICALLY

ABOUT THE MERGER TI.IAT TOOK PLACE AS A RESULT OF THE

LEGISLATION MERGING THOSE TWO BOARDS. FIRST OF ALL, TELL U

IVHAT THE ISSUES WERE THAT BROUGHT THE MERGER ABOUT

A WELL, I SSUES THAT CAUSED THE TWO SYSTEMS TO BE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MERGED EVOLVED AROUND --AS I RECALL, INVOLVED AROUND THE

DECLINING PUPIL ENROLLMENT IN THE RALEIGH CITY SYSTEM AND

DECLINING ENROLLMENT SPECIFICALLY OF WHITE STUDENTS, AND

AN INCREASE IIJ THE NUMBER OF WHITE STUDENTS IN THE THEN

COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEMS; OUR CONCERN, OR THE CONCERN ABOUT

THE DWINDLING SUPPORT FOR THE RALEIGH SCHOOL SYSTEM AS IT

I^/AS AT THAT TIME, AND THE REVENUES DECREASING, WHICH WOULD

ADVERSELY AFFECT THE EDUCAT I OI.JAL PROGRAMS FOR K I NDS THAT

LIVED INSIDE THE CITY LIMITS OF RALEIGH.

WHAT WAS THE POSITION OF THE 5 COUNTY COI.IMISSION

ON THE ISSUE?

A WELL, THE 5 COUNTY COMMISSIONERS SUPPORTED THE

MERGER OF THE SCHOOL SYSTEM AND ENCOURAGED THE DELEGATION

AND THE TWO BOARDS OF EDUCATION TO PROCEED WITH THE MERGER

OF THOSE TWO SYSTEMS.

a WHAT I^/AS THE PoslrtoN oF THE T,JAKE cour.,rry scHooL

BOARD ?

A THE hAKE 
'OUNTY 

SCHOOL BOARD

ISSUE/ ALMOST--I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY

BUT SEVERAL OF THEM VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED

I./HO FAVORED I T.

WAS DIVIDED ON THE

WHAT THE COUNT I,JAS.

IT. THERE WERE SOME

A WHAT

HAD THERE BEEN

SENT I MENT PR I OR

THER t

HAS PRECEDED TI_IE LEGISLATION ON THIS SUBJECT

ANY POLITICL ACTIVITY OR ANY INDICATION OF

TO TIJE LEGISLATION?

HAD BEEN QUITE A BIT OF THAT. A GREAT DEAL

RS

H P. O.8ox 2lldl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OF IT HAD BEEN EXPRESSED THROUGH THE NEWS MEDIA, BUT

MORE IMPORTANTLY, I BELIEVE THE ISSUE WENT TO A REFERENDUM

OF THE PEOPLE PROBABLY TWO YEARS EARLIER THAN THAT. AND IT

WAS RATHER SOUNDLY DEFEATED, AS I RECALL.

A WHEN YOU BROUGHT THE LEGISLATION TO THE

LEGISLATIVE DELEGATION, WHAT WAS THE EVENTUAL VOTE WITHIN

THE DELEGATION FOR OR AGAINST THE PROPOSED MERGER?

A I CANIT BE SPECIF]C AS TO WHAT THE VOTE WAS. I

KNOW THE DELEGATION INTRODUCED THE LEGISLATION TO THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND IT WAS INDEED PASSED. I WOULDNTT

HAZARD A GUESS AS TO EXACTLY WHAT THE VOTE WAS.

A DO YOU KNOW h'HETHER THERE WAS AT ANY TIME ANY

MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATIVE DELEGATION THAT OPPOSED THE

LEGISLATION?

A NOT TO My KNOWLEDGE. I HAD --WELL, NOT TO My

KNOWLEDGE . r BETTER 
"gr 

R r GHT 
"'.0' "

A WHEN THE LEGISLATION WAS PASSED, WHAT WAS THE

MAKE-UP OF THE NEWLY CONSTITUTED OR MERGED WAKE-RALEIGH

BOARD ?

A AT THAT POINT THE I4AKE COUNTY BOARD WAS COMPRISE

OF 9 I'IEMBER$, I BEL I EVE, WHO WERE ALL WH I TE. AND THE RALE I GH

BoARD oF EDUCATIoN WAS coMPoSED oF 7 MLMBERS wHICH WERE

COMPRISED OF TWO BLACK INDIVIDUALS. SO THE MERGED BOARD

WAS A TOTAL BOARD OF 1 5 MEMBERS.

A DID THAT SITUATION CONTINUE ON_-THAT IS, THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

l,2ALslzE oF THE BoRRo coNTINUE oN?

A ONLY FOR A LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME--MAYBE ONE

YEAR, AFTER I^/H I CH THE LEG I SLAT I ON GAVE THE WAKE COUNTY BOAR

OF COMMISSIONERS THE AUTHoRITY To DRAI^/ ELECToRAL DISTRIcTS.

I BELIEVE THE LEGISLATION SPECIFIED 9 DISTRICTS.

AND THOSE D I STR I CTS WEI1E DRAWN BY THE COUNTY

BOARD OF EDUCATION AND REDUCED THE SIZE OF THE BOARD TO

9 MEMBERS. AND I THINK WE ALL RAN--OR ALL THOSE WHO CHOSE

TO RUN, RAN IN 1977 FOR THOSE 9 SEATS.

a WERE yOU ONE OF.THE CANDIDATES WHO RAN IN tg77?

A '77. I THINK MY DATES ARE RIGHT. I DON'T WANT

TO.-DATES HAVE SEEMED PRETTY IMPORTANT, AND I CERTAINLY

DONIT WANT TO MISLEAD THE COURT ON THAT. BUT AS FAR AS I

CAN REMEI{BER, L977 IS ACCURATE, AND I DID RUN AT THAT TIME.

A MR. MALONE, I NOTE THAT WE DONIT HAVE A

CURRICULUM VITAE ON YOU. TELL THE COURT .JUST BRIEFLY WHAT

YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND IS.

A I AM A NATIVE oF RALEIGH, WAKE CoUNTY, A PRoDUCT

OF THE WAKE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. I AM EDUCATED AT

SHAW UNIVERSITY AND NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY AND THE

UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.

A HAD YOU PREVIOUSLY RUN FOR RE-ELECTION TO ANY

PUBLIC OFFICE IN THE CITY OR THE COUNTY PRIOR TO RUNNING TH

FIRST TIME FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD?

A YES. I RAN IN T971 TO BE ELECTED TO A 4-YEAR

t-t P. O.8ox 2Er6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.90S5

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1,2C7
TERM To THE RALEIGH BOARD OF EDUCATION.

A AFTER YOU WERE INITIALLY ELECTED TO THE MERGED

9 MEMBER BOARD IN '76 OP. '.77, DID YOU SEEK RE-ELECTION?

A YES, I DID.

A WHEN WERE YOU LAST RE_ELECTED?

A 1981.

A WHEN YOU FIRST RAN, WAS THAT IN AN AT LARGE

D I STR I CT OR A S I NGLE MEMBER ?

A IT I,JAS IN AN AT LARGE DISTRICT.

A AND DID YOU AT ANY TIME DURING YOUR POLITICAL

CAREER RUN IN SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN IN SINGLE

MEMBER.

JUDGE BR I TT :

THAT, COUNSEL.

YOUIVE BEEN OVER ALL

BY MR. LEONARD:

A YOU ARE CURRENTLY ELECTED FROM A SINGLE OR MULTI

MEMBER DISTRICT?

A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT.

A HAVE YOU--HAS THE ISSUE OF THE SINGLE VERSUS

MULTI_MEMBER OR AT LARGE DISTRICTING OF THE SCHOOL BOARD

BECOME A PUBLIC ISSUE?

A I'M AFRAID IT HAS, YES, SIR.

alvlLLYoUTELLTHECOURTJUSTBRIEFLYWHATTHE

H I STORY OF THAT t S ?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WELL, THE ISSUE WAS ORIGINALLY RAISED WHEN TH

DISTRICTS WERE DRAWN SOME 3 OR 4 OR 5 YEARS AGO, WHENEVER

THE DATE WAS. IT WAS THE WISDOM OF THE LEGISLATURE AT THE

TIME THAT THERE SOULD BE DISTRICTS RATHER THAN AT LARGE

ELECTIONS. C.ERTAIN INCIDENTS PRECIPITATED THIS YEAR, THE

RAISING OF THAT ISSUE AGAIN. I WAS A PART OF THE RAISING

OF THAT ISSUE. AND SEVERAL CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTY PETITION

THE LEGISLATURE TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION WHICH I^JOULD CAUSE

ALL MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION TO BE VOTED ON AT

LARGE .

a WHAT POSITION

WAKE COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD

MEMBER DI STRICTS?

DO YOU TAKE WITH RESPECT TO THE

ON THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULT

A I TAKE THE ISSUE, WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION, THAT

EVERY SCHOOL BOARD MEI4BER OUGHT TO BE VOTED ON BY EVERY

VOTING CITIZEN IN WAKE COUNTY

CAN YoU GIVE in,, COURT SOME OF THE REASONS WHY

YOU THINK THAT?

WELL, ITIS VERY SIMPLE. I BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE

TEND TO HAVE BETTER VISION AND BETTER HEARING POLITICALLY

WHEN THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE TO ALL THE CITIZENS OF TI-IE

COUNTY. IIVE ALWAYS BEEN A LITTLE BIT CONCERNED ABOUT

TUNNEL VISION THAT SEEI.4S,TO BE INHERENT IN THE PEOPLE WHO

ARE IMMUNE TO CERTAIN VOTES, OR TO THE VOTES OF THE PEOPLE

IN THE COUNTY. AI.ID I FEEL PRETTY STRONGLY ABOUT THAT.

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WERE YOU IN THE COURTROOM WHEN REPRESENTATIVE

BALLANCE TESTI FIED?

A YES, I IVE BEEN HERE. YES, I BELIEVE SO.

A DID YOU HEAR HIS TESTIMONY TO THE EFFECT THAT

A BLACK IS NOT ABLE TO REPRESENT THE BLACK INTERESTS IN A

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT TO THE SAME EXTENT THAT A BLACK CAN

REPRESENT THOSE BLACK INTERESTS IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTR.ICT

DID YOU HEAR THAT TESTIMONY?

A I HEARD THAT TESTIMONY. I CERTAINLY DID.

A DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT TESTIMONY?

A I DONIT AGREE WITH THAT HERE IN WAKE COUNTY.

I'D HAVE TO LIMIT MY OPINION TO WHAT I BELlEVE IS TRUE IN

WAKE COUNTY, AND I DONIT BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE APPLICABLE

FOR OUR COUNTY.

A NOW WITH RESPECT SPECIFICALLY TO WAKE COUNTY,

you GAVE A DEPOSITION, I BELIEVE, n Wrrr OR TWO AGO, DID YO

NOT ?

A I GUESS THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE TITLE FOR IT.

I WAS IN CONVERSATION WITH MS. WINNER, AND I GUESS THEY

WERE--IIM NOT SURE WHAT THE LEGAL TERM FOR WHAT WE TALKED

ABOUT WAS.

A THERE WAS A YOUNG LADY RECORDING IT.

A YES, THERE WAS.

A AND YOU WERE SI,JORN TO TELL THE TRUTH?

A ABSOLUTELY.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND DtD YOU AT THAT TIME HAVE AN OPINION

WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE OR MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE

WAKE COUNTY LEGISLATIVE DELEGATION?

A NO, I DIDN'T. I WAS VERY FIRM IN MY POSITION

ON THAT WITH MS. WINNER AI.JD WITH THE ATTORNEY GEI.IERAL 'S

OFFICE. AS WE STARTED TO DISCUSS THIS MATTER, I WAS VERY

CAREFUL TO NOT GET ]NVOLVED IN ANY DEBATE ON THAT.

a You HAVE NO--

A I HAVE NO OPINION WHATSOEVER.

A HAVE YOU SAT AND LISTENED TO THE TESTIMONY--

MOST OF THE TESTIMONY IN THIS.COURTROOI4 LAST WEEK AND THIS

WEEK?

A YES, SIR. I BELIEVE I WAS HERE ABOUT 4 DAYS

LAST WEEK, AND YESTERDAY, AND SUPPOSED TO BE HERE MOST OF

THE DAY.

a DO YoU NOW IAVE AN Op rr.rlor'r WI TH RESPECT TO THE

ISSUE OF SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT

RELATES TO THE BEST INTEREST. OF THE BLACK PEOPLE OF WAKE

COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA?

A YES, I DO. I HAVE FORMED AN OPINION.

a WHAT rs rT?

MS. WINNER: I OB.JECT TO THAT. AND

MAY I APPROACH THE BENCH WITH COUNSEL?

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU MAY.

(BENCH CONFERENCE - UNREPORTED.)

o)

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE PH I LL i PS : THE OBJECT I ON I S

OVERRULED.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A I THINK THE QUESTION WAS, MR. MALONE, DO YOU HAV

AN OPINION, AND I THINK YOU SAID YES. I ASKED YOU WHAT WAS

THAT OP]NION.

A YES, I DO HAVE AN OPINION.AND IT IS MY OPINION

THAT THE CURRENT SYSTEM OF ELECTING THE DELEGATION FROM

WAKE COUNTY--THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT__IS IN MY BEST

INTEREST AND T,/HAT I BEL I EVE I S THE BEST INTEREST OF OTHER

C IT IZENS OF THiS COUNTY.

A INCLUDING THE BLACK PEOPLE IN WAKE COUNTY?

A INCLUDING THE BLACK PEOPLE IN WAKE COUNTY.

A DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS

COUNTY HAVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR

CHOICE TO THAT DELEGATION?

A YES-, f Cf nrnf f.f r-V DO.

MR . LEONARD : ,^ THAT I S ALL .

MS. WINNER: MAY I HAVE JUST A

MOMENT ?

(PAUSE. )

C R O S S. E X A M I N A T I O N 12:10 P.M.

BY MS. GUINIER:

A BETWEEN THE TIME OF YOUR DEPOSITION AND THE

a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I II',1E OF YOUR TESTIFYING HERE TODAY, HOW MANY CONVERSATIONS

HAVE YOU HAD WITH AITORNEYS FOR THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?

A I CANIT GIVE YOU A NUMBER OI.I THAT. I HAVE IIAD

r.JO CONVERSAT I ONS WITH THEM CONCERNING THI S CASE. I T HAS

S I MPLY BEEN AS I MET THEM I I.I THE HALLWAY OUT THERE . WE HAVE

EXCHA.NGED PLEASANTR I ES . BUT AS FAR AS D I SCUSS I NG ANYTH I I'IG

WITH THEM AND FORMULATING OPINIONS, THAT HAS NOT TAKEN

PLACE.

A HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATIONS WITH ANY OF THE

WITNESSES I^,HO ARE LI STED AS WITNESSES FOR TIIE STATE?

A NO, I HAVE NOT.

A YOU HAVENIT HAD ANY CONVERSATIONS h'ITH AL ADAMS?

A OH, SURE,, I TALKEDTO AL ADAMS SEVERAL TIMES

DURING. THE COURSE OF A WEEK.

A AND YOU DONIT KNOW, BUT HE IN FACT IS LISTED AS

A l,IITNESS FOR THE STATE?

A WELL, I'rl\iOULD HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT,

CERTAI NLY .

A BUT YOU HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM SINCE YOUR

DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN?

A yES, I 'M SURE I'VE SPOKEN WtTH HIM SINCE THEIJ.

A AND YOU 'VE HAD NO CONVERSATION WITH ME SINCE

YOUR DEPOSITIONI WAS TAKEN, IS THAT CORRECT?

A I IVE PASSED NICET IES 11/ITH YOU AS I IVE MET YOU

IN THE HALLWAY AS I 'VE DOI'IE \,(ITH EVERYBODY IN THE COURTROOMo
- 

P. O.8or 26l(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT I RECOGNIZED.

a AND YOU,VE HAD NO COIIVERSAT I ON SUBSTANT I VELY

OR ANY OTHER ATTORNEYS FOR THETH]S CASE I{ITH MEABOUT

P LA I I\IT IFF?

A ABSOLUTELY NOT.

AND SOME OF--ALMOST EVERY DAY LAST WEEK DURING PORTIONS OF

THE TESTIMONY. I CANIT TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT DAY I CAME,

CERTAINLY NOT.

YOU WERE NOT HERE FOR THE ENTIRE TRIAL?

I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT_-PROBABLY NOT. I 'M SURE

OF THAT BECAUSE COURT WAS IN SESSION ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS

V/HEN I CAME IN AND I ASSUME LEFT AFTER I DID OT.I SOME DAYS.

A DUR I NG THE PC)RT I ON OF TTIE TR I AL THAT YOU HEARD,

WERE THERE ANY WITNESSES THAT TESTIFIED FROM WAKE COUNTY?

a

L I STENED TO

A

T EST I FY.

a

DEPOSITION,

TO ELECTION

WAS LIMITED

COUNTY BOARD

rJow You sArD THAT you sAT 
'I 

THE COURT AND

THE EVIDENCE. WHAT DAYS WERE YOU HERE?

I WAS HERE MONDAY, TUESDAY, AND PART OF WEDNESDA

I DON IT RECALL SEE.ING ANY FROM WAKE COUNTY

NOW WHEN YOU TEST I F I ED UNDER OATH AT YOUR

YOU TESTI FIED THAT YOUR POSITION I^/ITH REGARD

OF MEMBERS TO THE WAKE COUNTY BOARD OF' EDUCATION

SOLELY TO THE ELECTION OF MEMBERS TO THE WAKE

OF EDUCAT t CN?

THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. THAT IS CORRECT.

- 
P. O. Bor 261ff1

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND YOU TESTIFIED, IN FACT, THAT YOUR POSITION

W I TH REGARD TO TI.IE ELECT ION OF MEMBERS TO THE BOARD OF

EDUCAT I ON OF I,./AKE COTJNTY WAS L I M I TED ONLY TO WAKE COUNTY ?

A THAT IS CORRECT, YES.

A AND YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WOULD NOT SPECULATE

ON WHAT IS GOOD FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A ABSOLUTELY.

a you woulD NoT TESTIFY TO Wt-tAT rS GOOD FOR

HAL I FAX COUNTY ?

A THE ANSWERIS CORRECT, AND BUNCOMBE COUNTY I BELI

WAS INCLUDED IN THAT.

A AND IN FACT, YOU ARE NOT SPECULATING WHAT IS

GOOD FOR BLACK PEOPLE IN ANY OTHER PLACE IN THIS STATE

EXCPET FOR WAKE COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A ] BELIEVE THAT IS SPECIFICALLY WHAT I SAID TO

YOU.

A AND YOUR VIEW WITH REGARD TO ELECTION OF MEMBERS

TO THE WAKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION DOES NOT EXTEND TO

ELECTION TO MEMBERS OF THE WAKE COUNTY--EXCUSE ME-_TO THE

C I TY COUNC I L OF RALE I GH?

A ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN. I 'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTO

I^/HAT YOU MEAN BY I T .

A ] PROBABLY DID NOT ASK THE QUESTION VERY CLEARLY,

AND I APOLOGIZE.

A THANK YoU.

- 
P. O. Bor zttE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YOUR VIEWS WITI.I REGARD TO ELECTIONS OF MEMBERS

TO THE WAKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION--YOUR VIEW WITH REGARD

TO THE METHOD OF ELECTION THAT YOU PREFERRED DOES NOT EXTEND

TO THE METHOD OF ELECTION THAT YOU PREFER WITH REGARD'I-O THE

CITY COUNCIL OF RALEIGH?

A I CERTAINLY HAVE NOT APPLIED IT TO THE CITY

COUNCIL IN MY THINKING, NO.

A AND IN FACT, YOU TOLD ME AT YOUR DEPOSITION

THAT IT DOES NOT APPLY TO PREFERT]ING AT LARGE ELECTIONS FOR

THE CITY COUNCIL IN RALEIGH, IS THAT CORRECT?

A I TOLD YOU I HAD NO OPINION ON IT AND CERTAINLY

MY IDEAS WERE NOT APPLICABLE TO THE COUNCIL AT THAT POINT.

THATIS EXACTLY CORRECT.

A IN FACT, YOU SAID IN RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION,

''...NOW COULD YOU TELL ME WHETHER YOUR VIEW OF AT LARGE

ELECTIONS BEING PREFERABLE FOR THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF WAK

COUNTY EXTENDS TO THE CITY COUNCIL?II AND YOUR ANSWER WAS,

il...NO, IT DOESN'T.tt

A NO, IT DOESNIT. THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT

MS. GUII.IIER:

PLEASE, YOUR l-tONOR?

MAY I HAVE A MOMENT,

(PAUSE. )

BY MS. GUINIER:

A NOW AT YOUR DEPOSITION I ASKED YOU WHETHER BLACK

PEOPLE IN WAKE COUNTY FACED PROBLEMS AS A RESULT OF THEIRo
F P. O.8or 2Eldt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

RACE AND YOU TOLD ME YES, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES, TRUE .

A YOU ST I LL BEL I EVE THAT ?

A OH, SURE.

A A},JD IN FACT, YOU BELIEVED--OR, IN FACT, YOU

TEST I F I ED THAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM I I'I WAKE COUNTY t,/AS

I I.]TEGRATED ONLY AS A RESULT OF L I T I GAT ION.

A THAT IS CORRECT, YES.

A AND YOU TESTIFIED THAT NEIGHBORHOODS IN WAKE

COUNTY ARE I DENT I F I ABLE BY RACE ?

A THEY ARE, CERTAINLY.

A AND THAT CHURCHES IN WAKE COUNTY ARE SEGREGATED

BY RACE ?

A ABSOLUTELY.

A AND THAT SOCIAL CLUBS IN WAKE COUNTY ARE RACIALL

IDENTIFIABLE?

A AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY CERTAINLY ARE.

A AND THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN RALEIGH TENDS TO

BE POORER THAN THE WHITE COMMUNITY IN RALEIGH?

A THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN.

A THAT BLACKS STILL FACE PROBLEMS WITH REGARD TO

EMPt--OYI'1ENT DTSCRIMINATTON IN WAKE CgUNTy?

A I rM SURE THEY DO., YES.

a AND yOU TESTtFtED IN YOUR DEPOStTION THAT tN

I.1ANY INSTAI'ICES UJHEN TIIE IIOUSING AUTHORITY FIAS ATTEMPTED TO

- 
P. O. Bor 2trs

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PURCHASE LAND ANID LOCATE PUBL I C HOUS I NG I N THE WI-J I TE

COMMUN I TY THAT THEY HAVE FACED OPPOS I T I ON ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THAT SOME OF THIS OPPOSITION WAS RACIALLY

MOT I VATED ?

A IIM NOT SURE I USED THAT--IF YOU SAY I SAID THAT

AND ITIS IN THAT DEPOSITION, THEN I DID. BUT I DONIT RECALL

SAYING IT JUST THAT WAY.

A DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

A IIM SURE THAT RACE HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH

THAT, CERTA I NLY .

A NOI^/ YOU TEST I F I ED THAT THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF

RALE IGH I S WHERE MOS'T BLACK PEOPLE LIVE, ] S THAT CORRECT ?

A THAT IS CORP.ECT.

A AND IN YOUR DEPOSITION YOU SAID THAT THE STREETS

IN THE.SOUTHEASTERN QUADR.ANT ARE *O' 
'OUU' 

AS WELL AS THE

STREETS OF THE WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS IN RALEIGH, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A YEAH. AND AFTER I REMEMBERED MAKING THAT STATEME

I IM NOT lOO PERCENT SURE I MEAN--I UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU MEANT

BY IIPAVED AS I\/ELLI', AND I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE NOT ANSWERED

THAT WAY, S INCE THAT STATEMENT DOESN 'T MAKE A LOT OF SEI.ISE.

EITHER ITIS PAVED OR ITIS NOT PAVED. SO I DONIT REALLY KNOW

I4HAT IT MEANS BY ''AS V]ELL.I'

A ARE MUNICIPAL SERVICES INTHE BLACK COMMUNITY

- 
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

'i f-l{ 11
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EQUAL TO THOSE IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY?

A SUCH AS--GIVE ME_-BE VERY SPEC I FIC ON THAT, I F

YOU W I LL.

A SUCH AS THE PAVING OF STREETS IN THE tsLACK

COMMUNI]Y?

. A CERTAINLY MORE--THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE UNPAVED

STREETS I N THE PREDOMI NANTLY BLACK AREAS OF THE C I TY THAI!

THERE WOULD BE IN THE PREDOMINANLTY WHITE AREAS. t 'M FAIRLY

SURE THAT THATIS AN ACCURATE STATEMENT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT

THEY ARE. I CANIT BE MORE SPECIFIC THAI.J THAT.

a Now Do you BELTEVE THAT THESE PROBLEMS WtTrJ

REGARD TO HOUSING SE(;REGATlON AND EMPLOYMENT DISCRIMINATION

AND THE OTHER PRC)BLEMS THAT YOU MENTIONED ARE PART OF THE

LINGERING EFFECT OF PAST DISCRIMINAT ION?

A CH, I AI'1 SURE THAT THEY ARE. YES.

A AND YOU BELIEVE THAT TH; ATTITUDES OF WHITE

PEJPLE IN h'AKE COUNTY ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE ATTITUDES OF

I.IHITE PEOPLE IN OTHER PORTIONS OF NORTH CAROLINA, IS THAT

COR.R ECT ?

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DIFFERENIT II,I WHAT RESPECT?

A I DOUBT I SAID THAT--EXCUSE ME, SIR.

A I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT WAKE COUNTY IS MORE

PROGRESSIVE THAN FAR EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA?

A NOVJ I CAN--YES, I DID HAVE AN OPINION CN THAT.

YES, I SAID THAT, CERTAINLY. AND I GAVE YOU SOME REASONS

F P, O. Eor 2ll6i!
Ll F.broh, Nonh C.roiln. 276r I



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHY I ASSUME THAT \^/OULD BE THE CASE.

A YOU ATTRIBUTED, IN FACT, THE DIFFERENCE IN

ATTITUDE TO THE EXISTENCE OF 6 OR 7 INSTITUTIOI..IS OF HIGHER

LEARNING WITHIN THE METROPOLITAN AREA?

A Y,ES, AND THE RESEARCH TFIIANGLE PARK THAT ATTRACT

A LOT OF PEOPLE INTO THE AREA, CERTAINLY.

A NOII, DO YOU BELI EVE THAT BLACKS ARE MORE LI KELY

TO TURN OUT AND VOTE IN AN ELECTION WHEN A BLACK CANDIDATE

RUNS FOR OFFICE?

A OH, YES. YES, THAT CERTAINLY MOTIVATES BLACKS

TO TURN OUT IN LARGER NUMBERS WHEN BLACK CANDIDATES RUN,

OBVI OUSLY .

A AND YOU BELIEVE THAT A BLACK OFFICE HOLDER HAS

MORE SENSITIVITY AND UNDERSTANDING TO THE NEEDS OF BLACK

PEOPLE?

A I THINK THAT'S A VERY, 
"*' 

GOOD STATEMENT.

A YOU I VE hIORKED I N CAMPAI GNS FOR VAR I OUS BLACK

PEOPLE WHO HAVE RUN FOR OFFICE IN WAKE COUNTY?

ff: ALI.IOST ALL OF . THEM.

A AND ITJORKED IN THE CAMPAIGN FOR JOHN BAKER WHEN

HE RAN FOR SHEP.IFF IN 1978?

A YES, CERTAINLY DID.

a AND rN L9B2?

A YES.

A AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR VJITH JOHN BAKERIS RECORD?

a P, O. Bor 2816
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.361'9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

tr,22t)A OH, yES. RECORD--YOU MEAN AS SHERIFF OR AS

V/HAT ?

A YOUIRE FAMILIAR WITH HIM PERSONALLY?

A I KNOI^J JOHN BAKER PERSONALLY, YES,

A AND YOU KNOW THAT JOHN BAKER PLAYED PROFESSIONAL

FOOTBALL AND I^,AS AN ALL_PRO PRIOR TO BEING ELECTED, IS THAT

CORRECT ?

A YES, MILLIONS 0F PEOPLE KNOW THAT.

A AND THAT PRIOR TO RUNNING FOR OFFICE, HIS NAME

l{AS trJELL KNOWN I N THE t'i H I TE COMMUN I Ty ?

A YES, I ID HAVE TO SAY THAT HE WAS VERY WELL KNOWN

A YOU ARE ALSO FAMILIAR WITH ACIE I.]ARD?

A YES.

A IS SHE A BLACK WOMAN LAWYER?

A YES.

a sHE RAN FoR DISTRICT counr .iuDGE IN h/AKE couNTy

IN 1982?

A SHE RAN AS AN INCUMBENT?

A YES.

a sHE LOST?

A YEAH, ACIE WARD RAN AS AN INCUMBENT HAVING SAT

OR I,/HATEVER THE CORRECT ENGL I SH I S--HAVING BEEN APPOINTED TO

THE BENCH AND SERVED MAYBE 6 MONTHS AND THEN WAS--MAYBE LESS

THAN THAT AND THEN HAD TO RUN FOR ELECTION TO THE SEAT.

n P. O.8or 2!l(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND YOU BELIEVE THAT RACE WAS ONE OF THE

FACTORS IN HER DEFEAT?

A I IM FAIRLY SURE THAT THATIS NOT IN THAT DEPOSITI

NO, I DIDNIT SAY THAT. I THII.JK I BELIEVE I SAID TO YOU THAT

THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR BUT THERE WERE SOME

orHER Tt-tIf,lc9, Too, THAT PROBABLY ATTRI BUTED TO HER DEFEAT.

a IT WAS ONE OF THE FACTORS?

A COULD VERY I.IELL HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE FACTORS.

I AM FAIRLY SURE I TOLD YOU THAT.

A YOUIRE FAMILIAR WITH ELIZABETH COFIELD?

A VERY FAMILIAR WITH HER.

A AND SHE I S THE ONLY BLACK PERSON WHO HAS EVER

BEEN ELECTED TO THE WAKE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS?

A SHE CERTAINLY IS, YES.

A AND SHE DOES NOT LIVE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A SHE DOES NOT.

A IN FACT, SHE LIVES IN AN AFFLUENT SECTION OF

RALEIGH THAT'S PREDOMINANTLY WHTTE?

A YOUIRE QUOTING ME ACCURATELY ON THAT.

MS. GUINIER: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT?

(PAUSE. )

BY MS. GUINIER:

A NOW YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT

SINCE YOUR DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN YOUIVE HAD A CHANGE OF

OPINION WITH REGARD TO ELECTION OF MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATUR

P. o. Bor 2at6
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FROI'1 WAKE COUNTY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A I BELIEVE I SAID I HAD FORI1ED AN OPINION, NOT

A CHANGE OF OPINION. BUT I HAD FORMED AN OPINION.

A AND THAT OPINION IS LIMITED ONLY TO MEMBERS OF_-

TO ELECTION OF MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE FROM WAKE COtr,tJTY?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

MS. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION I2:2!, P.M

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MR. MALONE, I NIEGLECTED TO ASK YOU: ARE YOU

AN AMERICAN WHO IS ALSO BLACK AND MALE?

A YES. I HAD TO THINK A MOMENT ABOUT THAT QUESTI

YES, I FIT ALL I OF THOSE.

MR. LEONARD: THAT I S ALL I' HAVE.

EXAMINATION t2:22 P . M.

BY JUDGE DUPREE:

A MR. MALONE, WHEN YOU SAY THAT YOU HEARD THE

TESTIMONY OF BOTH THE PLAINTIFFS AND THE DEFENDANTS AND

FORMED AN OPINION AS TO THE RELATIVE MERITS OF THE SINGLE

VERSUS THE MULTI_I.IEIIBER DISTRICTS AS A RESULT OF COMING TO

THIS TRIAL, I'D BE INTERESTED TO KNOW IF YOU FORMED THAT

OPINION AFTER HAVING HEARD JUST THE PLAINTIFFSI TESTIMONY

OR I{HETHER IT HAS BEEN FORMED AS A RESULT OF ALL THE TESTIMO

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O. Bor 2llB

LJ R.breh, N;ff c.'oil^. 2rGrt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT YOU HEARD?

A YouR HoNoR, IT's BEEN A COLLECTIVE--A COLLECTIoN

AN ACCUMULATION, I GUESS, OF EVERYTHING THAT I^/E IVE HEARD

HERE. AND I_--

A WHEN DID YOU FORM IT?

A ITIS KIND OF HARD TO SAY EXACTLY WHEN IT WAS

FORMED, REALLY. THE REAL TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, I'VE LONG

FELT THAT PEOPLE-_I 'VE LONG FELT LEFT OUT OF THE SYSTEM

IF I DID NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE ON PEOPLE WHO WERE

MAK ING DEC i S IONS THAT AFFECT MY L I FE. I t VE ALI^'AYS FELT

THAT WAY. THIS IS NOT A NEW DECISION WITH ME. I GUESS ITIS

SAFE TO SAY THAT I CHOSE TO ART I CULATE THAT TODAY RATHER

THAN LEAVE HERE I'JITHOUT SAYING 1T. I THINK THAT'S A FAIR

ASSESSMENT OF THAT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YoU VERY MUCH.

(wTTNESS EXCUSED. )

I^/HER EUpON,

MALACHI J. GREEN

V',AS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOL LOWS :

DIRECT EXAMINATION 12:25 P.M.

BY MR. LEOI.,IARD:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS,

PLEASE?

F P. O. gor 2llaB
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9. 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I AI4 MALACHI JEP.OI'4E GREEN. I LIVE AT lOOO

GREENLEAF AVENUE, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA.

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN MECKLENBURG COUI{TY?

A JUST A MINUTE. I IM TRYING TO REMEMBER hIHEN I

T'/ENT BACK TO MECKLEI.JBURG COUNTY AFTER BEING AI^/AY. I WORKED

AI^JAY FROM |.IECKLENBURG COUNTY FOR B yEARS OR SO, AND I THINK

I RETURNED IN'75, I THINK IS ACCURATE. SO IIVE BEEN BACK

SINCE 175. BUT I GREW UP IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND LIVED

THERE UNTIL I MOVED AWAY TO WORK.

A WERE YOU EDUCATED iN THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY

SCHOOLS?

A I WAS, AND SEVERAL OTHER INTERESTING PLACES OF

HIGHER LEARNING.

A }IEILL GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE. WHEN DID YOU

FIRST BECOME POLITICALLY ACTIVE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A HIGH SCHOOL.

A THAT WAS IN WEST CHARLOTTE HIGH SCHOOL?

A YES, WEST CHARLOTTE SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL.

A WHEN I^JAS THAT?

A THAT IVAS IN THE r 60 I S--BEG YOUR PARDON, THE

LAST , 5O'S. I GRADUATED IN 1 960.

A HOW DID YOU START YOUR POLITICAL ACTIVITIES?

A MR. LEONARD, ACTUALLY MY POLITICAL ACTIVITY

STARTED EARLIER THAN THAT AS I RECALL NOW, BECAUSE MY

FATHER USED TO CARIIY MY BROTHER AND I ALOI.IG WITH HIM WHEN

P. O. Bor 2AlS
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36].9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HE

TO

oN.

b/AS ACT I VE I N

GET FOLKS TO

THE LABOR UNION.

GO VOTE, REGISTER

AND WEID GO OUT AND TRY

TO VOTE, SO FORTH AND SO

THIS WAS INTHE I50IS BACK WHEN THERE WAS SUCH

A THING AS A LABOR MOVEMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA, PRIOR TO THE

PASSAGE OF 14-8, TAFT-HARTLEY.

AND WHEN YOU PERSONALLY STARTED TO TAKE PART

IN POLITICAL ACTIVITIES, WHAT WERE THOSE ACTIVITIES?

I F YOU WANT TO CALL THE EARLY DAYS OF THE

CIVIL RIGHTS--AND I TERM THAT POLITICAL ACTIVITY-_IF YOU

h'ANT TO CALL THE EARLY DAYS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT,

wHICH FUNDAMENTALLy STARTED OUT THE BROW_N__\I_.___EQABp rN '54,

THEN ON UP THROUGH THE SIT-INS AND VARIOUS OTHER KINDS OF

THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE LATE '50'S AND PARTICIPATION IN

THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

, WE COULD SAY.WE STARTED IN THE MIDDLE '50'S,

CULI.,lINATING, OF COURSE, IN THE--MY PARTICIPATION IN THE

sIT-INS Al.tD THE OTHER FORMS OF- CIViL RIGHTS PROTEST, THE

ANTI-DISCRIMINATIOI{ PROTEST. IT OCCURRED THROUGH ACTIVITIES

I^J I TH THE NON-V I OLENT COORD I NAT I NG COMM I TTEE AND THE STUDENTS

FOR A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY, BETTER KNOWN AS THE SDS.

DID THERE COME A TIME I^,HEI.I YOU LEFT I{ECKLENBURG

COUNTY AND I.,ENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA?

A YES, I DID. I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH

CAROLINA IN 1960.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a WERE YOU ACTIVE POL I T I CALLY WH I LE YOU I,JERE

THERE?

A YES, SIR. I WAS VERY ACTIVE.

TELL THE COURT WHAT YOU DID.

LQTS OF CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVITIES ALONG WITH--

I WAS ACTIVE IN THE CONGRESS FOR RACIAL EQUALITY AND TO SOME

EXTENT A MORE CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATION CALLED THE NAACP.

WHAT DID YOU DO WITH RESPECT TO YOUP. ACADEMIC

CAREER AFTER THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA?

WELL, AFTER I WAS SUMMARILY DISMISSED FROM THE

UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA FOR VARIOUS REASONS, MOST OF

VJHICH HAVE TO DO VIITH BEING CONDUCT UNBECOMING OF A CAROLINA

GENTLEMAN-- AND THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I WAS

ENGAGING IN CERTAIN KII'JDS OF ACTIVITIES THAT THE ADMINISTRAT

DIDNIT COI.IDONE AND THAT WAS SETTING IN AND CAUSING PROBLEMS.

I ENTERED, |,/ELL, A LONG SO.JOURN THROUGH A LOT OF

SCHOOLS: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA,

UNIVERSITY OF INDIANA. I GOT A.BACHELOR OF FINE ARTS DEGREE

FROM TEMPLE UNIVERSITY IN PHILADELPHIA WHILE I WAS WORKING

FOR SDS THR.OUGH THE PHILADELPHIA TUTORIAL PROJECT AS PROGRAM

DIRECTOR. AND LEAVING THERE, MY FATHER COULDNIT UNDERSTAND-

COULDNIT EXPLAIN TO THE BOYS AT THE FILLING STATION I/HAT HIS

SON I^/AS DOiNG VIITH A DEGREE IN THEATER, SO HE ASKED ME TO

GO BACK TO SCHOOL, ANID SAID HE WOULD PAY FOR IT. SO I ENTER

LIVII.JGSTONE COLLEGE IN SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA AND GOT A

ON

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

B. A. IN HISTORY AND ENGLISH SO THEN HE COULD TELL SOMEBOD

THAT HIS SON WAS WOP.THWHILE AND NOT OFF SOMEI,/HERE PLAYACTING

JUDGE PHILLIPS: TAKE A RECESS UNT I L

1:r0.

CrHe pRECEEDING wAS RECESSED AT t2-.30 p.M., To

RECONVENE AT ti30 p.M.., THIS SArlE DAy.)

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

'; ,l (-r,LLLrF U R T H E R P P. O C E E D I N G S 2:OO P.M.

(I^/HEREUPoN,

T4ALACHI J. GREEN,

THE WITNESS O-N THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FoLLoWS:)

DIRECT EXAMINATIoN 2:oo P.M.
RESUMED

BY MR. LEONARD:

a MR- GREEN, DID THERE coME A TIME IN 1964 h,,HEN

YOU WORKED IN THE GOVERNORTS OFFICE?

A YES . I WAS AN I NTERN I N STATE GOVERNI.IENT AND

THERE WERE T5 OR 20 STUDENTS SELECTED FROM AROUND NORTH

CAROLINA TO DO THINGS IN STATE GOVERNMENT AT THE PLEASURE

OF GOVERNOR SANFORD. I I{AS ATTACHED TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT

oF coMMUNITY COLLEGES, ANDI DID A enear DEAL oF RESEARCH AI'JD

SO FORTH AND SO ON IN COMPENSATORY EDUCATION AS IT RELATED

TO BLACK YOUNG PECPLE.

A THAT I{AS IN THE OFFICE OF GOVEP.NOR TERRY SANFOP.D?

A YES, SIR.

a MovING BEYOND THAT PERIOD oF TIME IN 1966, r,{AS

THERE A TIME IVHEN YOU BECAME ASSOCIATED WITH.THE CHARLOTTE

BUREAU OF EI'lPLOYMENT PLACEMENT AND TRAINIIJG?

A YES.

a WHAT r{AS THAT GROUP3

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

l rqaJ- t< Lt tlTHE CHARLOTTE BUREAU OF EMPLOYMENT PLACEMENT

AND TRA I N I I.JG VJAS AN EMPLOYMEI'IT VEH I CLE . UNDEP. THE OLD OFF I C

OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNiTY, THE CHARLOTTE BUREAU OF EMPLOYMENT

PLACEMENT AND TRAINING DEVELOPED PILOT PROGRAMS TO PUT BLACK

PEOPLE INTO NON-TRADITIONAL I{ORK--lNTO, NON:TRADITIOI.IAL .JOBS.

FURTHERMORE, IT WAS THE FIRST BLACK OUTFIT TO--

IN CHARLOTTE TO HAVE AN OFFICE DOWN--IN WHAT WAS THEN--

U/HAT IS NOW UPTOh'N CHARLOTTE. AND IT I^.IAS ALSC PRCBABLY THE

FIRST INTEGRATED IN CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLIIlA. I\,E LI KE TO

THINK THAT WE ARE CP.EDITED I,,ITH THE BLACKS WHO ARE NOW

EMPLOYED IN THE I4AJOR INDUSTRIES AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES II'J

CHARLOTTE. A LOT OF THEM VJE PLACED IN THOSE .JOBS AND DESIGN

PROGRAMS TO GIVE THEM UPWARD MOBILiTY.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NON-TRADITIONAL JCBS?

VJELL, UP UNTIL THE MID I60IS, THE BLACK FOLKS

}.JERE CONS IGNED TO BLACK JOBS. I F YOU I,IERE A TRAII'JED BLACK

PERSON II.J THE SOUTH, AND IN MOST OF THE UNITED STATES, YOU

EITHER HAD TO BE A TEACHER OR A DOCTOR, LAWYER, OR PREACHER

THE CORRIDORS OF BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY, FINANCE, AND

GOVERNMENT V/ERE NOT OPEI'I--PUBLIC AGENCIES I,(ERE NOT OPEN TO

BLACKS FOR EII4PLOYMENT AT THAT T IME.

HERE UNDERSTANDS THAT.

I ?I.,I SURE EVERYBODY

AND IN 1968, MOVING ON, DID YOU RESIGN FROM THE

EMPLOYMENT PLACEMEI'IT ANDJOB AT THE CHAP.LOTTE BUREAU OF

TRA I I'II NG TO AGA I N GET ACT I VE IN POLITICS?

- 
P. O. Box 2lte3

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I DID.

a WHAT DrD YOU DO?

A I WAS THE CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR FOR THE REGINALD

HAWK I NS CAI'4PA I GN FOR GOVERNOR .

A AN.D WAS HAI^IKINS A BLACK?

A YES.

A DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY BECOME INVOLVED IN LOCAL

ELECTIONS SUCH AS MAYOR--MAYORAL ELECTIONS IN CHARLOTTE?

A YES. REVEREND GEORGE LEAK P.AN FOR MAYOR OF

CHARLOTTE, AND WE h'ERE ACTIVE IN HIS CAMPAIGN. I I{AS

CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR,, PULLING THiNGS TOGETHEP.. OF COURSE, H

WAS UNSUCCESSFUL.

A WAS MR. LEAK A BLACK?

A YES.

a Do You KNow JIM ROSS?

A VERY WE LL , of 
' 

OF rHE ULil FR r Er'lDS r ' VE GOT .

A DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY WORK FOR HIS ELECTION?

A I DID. I DID.

A AND HE RAN FOR WHAT?

A STATE HOUSE.

' a AND I S ROSS BLACK OR \^/HITE?

A BI-ACK.

a cAN-- THERE h'AS A PERIOD OF TIME VJHEN yOU WERE

ASSOCIATED WITH VIRGII]IA STATE COLLEGE?

A YES. I WENT TO VJORK FOR VIRGINIA STATE COLLEGE

i.230

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1,231
AT THE BEHEST AND II.JSI STENCE OF BOB BROWN 

' 
AS ASS I STANT

TO THE PRESIDENT FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS. AND THAT ENTAILED

PRINCIPLY LOBBYING THE VARiOUS STATE AGENCIES OF VIRGINIA AN

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO GET MONEY FOR THAT LAND

GRANT INSTITUTION, WHICH IS A BLACK SCHOOL IN PETERSBURG,

VIRGINIA.

a Hou/ LoNG WERE YOU---

A 4 YEAP.S.

MS . I^/I NNER : CAN I ASK THAT THESE

LAST'SEVERAL ACTIVITIES BE PUT IN SOME TIMEFRAME?

MR. LEONARD: I WAS .JUST ABOUT TO DO

THAT.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WHEN DID YOU RETURN TO NORTH CAROLINA?

A 1976,'75--CHARLOTTE.

A DID YOU BECOME, SUBSEQUENT TO YOUR RETURN,

ASSOCIATED \^/ITH A GROUP CALLED THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY CoUNCIL?

A I WAS APPOINTED TO.THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY COUNCIL

BY EDDIE KNOX, MAYOR OF CHARLOTTE. THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY

COUI'JC I L I S THE OVER S I TE BOARD FOR THE OLD CETA PROGRAM.

A AND CHARLOTTE BUSINESS LEAGUE-_ARE YOU ASSOCIATED

WITH THAT?

A I WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE CHARLOTTE

BUSINESS LEAGUE,AND ITIS A BLACK BUSINESS ORGANiZATION. IT'S

TAI.ITAI,IOUNT TO THE BLACK CHAI.IBER OF COMMERCE.o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L232
a AI.JD THAT ' S IN CHARLOTTE ?

A IN CHARLOTTE, YES.

A AND hAS THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY COUNCIL IN CHARLOTT

A YES.

a AND BLACK OPTIMI ST ORGANIZATION--I^/ERE YOU

ASSOCIATED WITH THAT?

A yES. I'M ONE OF THE--MLL, THE OPTIMIST CLUBS

INTERNATIONAL, AND ONE OF THE SEVERAL CLUBS IN CHARLOTTE,

OF \,IHICH I AM ONE OF THE FOUNDING MEMBERS, IS A BLACK CLUB.

IT.JUST HAPPEI.IS TO BE THAT BLACKS ARE MEMBERS OF ALL THE

oPTIMIST CLUBS. TIlIS IS.JUST ONE, AT THIS POINT--AT LEAST

THE LAST TIME WE LOOKED, WAS ALL BLACK.

A ARE YOU STILL ACTIVE IN THAT ORGANIZATION?

A IIM A DUES-PAYING MEMBER. I DONIT GO TO MEETINGS

VERY OFTEN BECAUSE IT MEETS AT THE SAME TIME THAT THE PLANNIN

COII,IM I SS I ON MEETS. AND I I M SURE YOU UTIOTNSTEUO V'HAT THAT

MEANS.

A ARE YCU FAMILIAR W}TH THE COMMITTEE TO RESTORE

AND PRESEP.VE THE THIRD I,IARD IN CHARLOTTE?

A YES, I AM.

A I,JERE YOU ACT I VE I N THAT ?

A I AM THE FOUNDER OF THAT CORPORATION.

a h'HAT I S THE PURPOSE OF THAT ORGAN lZAr I ON ?

A THE COMMITTEE TO RESTCRE AND PRESERVE THE THIRD

h]ARD HAS AS ITS MI SS IOTI THE RESTORATION AND PRESERVATION OF

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1,233
AN OLD BLACK NE IGHBORHOOD IN CHARLOTTE CALLED IHI RD I^IARD,

I,\'HICH IS ONE OF THE --BACK Il.,l THE OLD t^'ARDS SYSTEMS, ONE

OF THE FOUR WARDS IN THE CITY. IT IS NOW BLACK AND WAS RUN

DOWN. AT.ID FORTUNATELY WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO ATTRACT A GREAT DEA

OF GOVERNMENT HELP AS WELL AS TREMENDOUS PRIVATE HELP TO THE

TUNE OF $15 MILLION TO PUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD BACK ON ITS FEET

AND RUNN I NIG .

A AND ARE YOU FAMILIAR I,JITH THE BLACK POLITICAL

CAUCUS OF CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG?

A I CERTAINLY AM.

, A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THAT?

A I AM, AND I AM VICE CHAIR OF THAT GROUP.

A ARE YOU CURRENTLY VJORKING IN A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN

A I AM CURRENTLY WORKING IN FOUR POLITICAL

CAMPA I GNS .

a LET'S LIMIT OURSELVE' aO* THE MOI1ENT TO THOSE

WHICH MIGHT INVOLVE OTHER CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG RESIDENTS.

ARE YOU h/ORKING IN A GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN?

A I AM.

A IS THAT THE BUTTON YOUIVE GOT ON THERE?

A THATIS RIGHT. THE NEXT GOVERNOR OF NORTH

CAROL I NA \^/ I LL BE H . EDI,/ARD KNOX .

a You,RE WORKING FOR MR. KNOX FOR GOVERNOR?

A I AM.

a ARE yOU ALSO WORKING FOR A CAT.JDIDATE FOR MAYOR

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

-r234
IN THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE?

A I AM.

a WHAT,S HIS |{AME?

A HARVEY GANTT.

A DI.D KNOX AND GANTT AT ONE POINT IN THEIR POLITIC

CAREERS CONTEST OI.IE ANOTHER FOR THE MAYOR ' S POS I T I ON I N

CHARLOTTE ?

A INDEED, THEY DID.

A IS ONE OF THEM BLACK?

A HARVEY GANTT I S BLACK.

a IS ONE OF THEM WHITE?

A EDDIE KNOX iS WHITE.

a wHo DrD YOU SUPPORT?

A I SUPPORTED EDDIE KNOX.

A THERE'S BEEN TESTIMONY HERE THAT THE KNOX

CAMPAIGN MADE OVERT RACIAL APPEALS DURING THE KNOX-GANTT

CAMPAIGN. DID YOU OBSERVE ANY OF THOSE APPEALS DURING THAT

CAMPAIGN BY KNOX1 *

A I DID NOT, SIR.

A OR BY ANYBODY ON HIS BEHALF?

A I DID NOT OBSERVE SUCH

A LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN--MAY I APPROACH THE

W I TNESS ?

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU MAY.

BY MR . LEONARD : LET ME SHOW YOU I./HAT ' S BEEN

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

1235
MARKED GINGLES EXHIBIT NO.46 I,JHICH IS IN EVIDENCE AND

HAS BE EN I DENT I F I ED AS AN ED I TOR I AL FROM THE

A THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER.

A CHARLOTTE OBSERVER, AND YOUILL NOTE IIVE MARKED

THE LAST T'dO PARAGRAPHS. WOULD YOU JUST P.EAD THOSE TO YOUR-

sELF FOR THE MOMENT, PLEASE?

(wr rNrss coMPL I ES. )

NOW, MP. . GP.EEN, DO YOU HAVE AN OP IN ION AS TO

I^JHETHER OR NOT THOSE TI,JO PARAGRAPHS OF THAT EDITORIAL

CONSTITUTE A RACIAL APPEAL OR A RACIAL OVERTONE U/ITH RESPECT

TO THE CAI.IDIDATES IN THAT RACE?

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

OBJECTIOI.].

OVERRULED.

A IN MY OPINION, MR.. LEONARD, THEY DO NOT

CONSTITUTE ANY APPEAL TO RACE BECAUSE THE DIVERGEI'IT AND

SOMETIMES CONTROVERSIAL VIEWS THAT ANE REFERRED TO IN THE

EDITORIAL HAVE DIRECT REFERENCE TO TWO BIG ISSUES THAT VJERE

THE PRINCIPAL CAMPAIGN TI-IEMES..

A DID EITHER OF THOSE ISSUES HAVE ANYTHING TO DO

WITH RACE?

A NO, ONLY INSOFAR AS ANY ISSUE HAS TO DO WITH

RACE--PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, GROWTH MANAGEMENT. THOSE WERE

THE TWO BIG ISSUES.

a wouLD YolJ r-tAVE AN OPINION AS TO TVHETHER OR NOT

THE BLACK C I T I ZENS OF THE C I TY OF CHARLOTTE I^IOULD HAVE TAKEN

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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1.236
THAT EDITORIAL TO BE A REFLECTION ON THE RACIAL BACKGROUND

OF THE TWO CANDIDATES?

A I CAI.JIT SPEAK, OF COURSE, FOR ALL THE CITIZENS

OF CHARLOTTE, BUT NO ONE EVER RAISED THAT ISSUE TO ME OR I

NEVER HEARD IT DISCUSSED DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

A PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU AND I DISCUSSED THIS

LAST NIGHT, HAD YOU EVER HEARD IT RAISED BY ANYBODY?

A NO.

A WAS YOUR SUPPORT FOR EDDIE KNOX IN THAT CAMPAIGN

OPEN ?

A VERY.

A DID PEOPLE KNOW YOU WERE SUPPORTING HIM?

A YES, S IR.

A DID YOURNAME AT TIMES APPEAR IN ADS FOR MR.

KNOX ?

A ENDORSEMENT ADS AND EVERY OTHER REPORT. WE

SPONSORED ALL KINDS OF AFFAIRS FOR HIM.

A I SHOI^/ YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED GINGLES EXHIBIT

47.AND LAST NIGHT IN THE DARK LIGHT OF MY HOTEL ROOM WE

COULDNIT FIND YOUR NAME oN THE LIST, BUT THAT'S NoT MY

QUESTION WITH RESPECT TO THAT EXHIBIT. YOU'LL NOTICE THAT

IIVE UNDERLINED IN RED SOME OF THE LANGUAGE OUT OF THAT AD.

WOULD YOU JUST READ THAT LANGUAGE?

A ALOUD?

a PLEASE, ALOUD.

F P. O. Bor 2lla
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L237
II...WE URGE YOU TO VOTE FOP. A MAN WHO IS

CONCERNED FOR THE TOTAL CITY, NOT JUST A FEh' SELECTED AREAS.'

A NOW DURING THE COURSE OF THAT CAMPAIGN AND IN

YOUR EXPERIENCE FROM THAT CAMPAIGN, AND THE ISSUES IN THE

CAMPAIGN, DO.YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT

LANGUAGE CONSTITUTES A RACIAL APPEAL BY THE WHITE-_BY THE

KNOX CAMPAIGN APPEALING TO THE WHITE VOTERS OF CHARLOTTE TO

SUPPORT KNOX?

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PH I LLI PS :

NO, MR. LEONARD.

OBJ ECT i ON .

OVERR.ULED.

I DONIT THINK THAT IT I^IAS A

RACIAL APPEAL. MAY I EXPLAIN?

PLEASE DO.

HARVEY, IN THIS MAYCRAL RACE, HARVEY GANTT,

AGAIN THE AREAS, THE ISSUES--ONE OF THE HOTTEST ISSUES WAS

GROI,/TH. MANAGEMENT, GROWTH, NEIGHBORHOOD PRESERVATION. AND

THE--HARVEY HAD A--I TUINT, A VERY BAD RAP BECAUSE THE LABEL

OF ELITEST WAS PINNED ON HARVEY GANTT, THE BLACK GUY, WHO WAS

AN ADVOCATE FOR NEIGHBORHOOD PRESERVATION. BUT THE NEIGHBOR_

HOODS THAT WERE BEING PRESERVED AND TALKED ABCUT HAVING BEEN

PRESERVED AT THAT TIME I./ERE ALL HIGH CHIC,\{HITE,AFFLUENT

NEIGHBORHOODS WiIERE YOUNG ACTIVIST PEOPLE HAD MOVED INTO.

AND OF COURSE,IHEY HAD A NATURAL FRIENDSHIP I/JITH

HARVEY AND I./ERE SOME OF HIS STRONGEST AI.JD MOST VOCAL

SUPPORTERS. IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THE DEVELOPI,'IENT,

F P. O.8or 28lm
LJ R.brgh. Nodh C!,oIn. 2r0ll



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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

it 238
AND REAL ESTATE AND BAI'.IKING COI4MUNITY HAD

BATTLES I.IITH THESE PEOPLE AND THEY USED

AS A CHAMPION OF THEIR CAUSE. AND HARVEY, I

RAP.

MS . t^i I l',ll.lER :

TO SPECIFIC UNDERLINED PORTIONS,

TOLD WHAT THE UNDERLII..IED PORT IONS

VJI TNESS I ATTENT ION TO.

FOUGHT

HARVEY,

THINK

SOME

IN THII..IK,

GOT A BAD

THIS EDITORIAL REFERS SPECIFICALLY TO THOSE FEI^I

SELECTED AREAS--THOSE ENCLAVES OF EL IT I SI'1 THAT CREATED A

GREAT DEAL OF CONTROVERSY IN OUR CITY FOR SCME TIME.

SO THAT_-IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT THE LANGUAGE

WAS OR i^]AS NOT A RACIAL__-

NO, I DONrT THINK IT I,JAS.

LET ME SHOI^] YOU GINGLES EXHIBIT 48. WEIVE

ALREADY COVERED THE F I R.ST-- i JUST \^iANT YOU TC OU I CKLY LOOK

AT THE OTHEP. QUOTATIONS THAT ARE ON THAT EXHIBIT FROM OTHER

NEWSPAPERS, AND I IVE UNDERLINED THE14, I BELIEVE, II,,IDICATING

THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEt',I TESTIFIED TO BY OTHER I^]ITI.IESSES.

AND I ASK YOU I..IHETHER ANYTHING ON THAT EXHIBIT IN YOUR

OPINION I.IAS AN APPEAL TC I,JHITES II.J CHARLOTTE TO SUPPORT KNIOX

BASED ON RACE ?

IF HE IS GOII.]G TO REFER

I WOULD APPRECIATE BEING

ARE THAT HE IS DRAI^JING THE

JUDGE PHI LLI PS: AS I UI.IDERSTOCD, HI S

FII.JAL QUESTION \,JAS IF THEP.E WAS.ANYTHING IN THAT EXHIBIT

THAT HE I-1AS AN OP I N I ON THAT REFLECTS AN APPEAL TO RACE .

F P. O. gox 28ltB
lJ Rrhrgh, Nodh C.rofiil 27611



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L239
MS. WINNER

THAT IS FINE.

IF THAT IS THE OUESTIOND

MR., LEONARD: IT IS. UNDERLINED OR

OTHERW I SE ?

I,JITNESS: NO. AS A MATTER OF FACT,

KNOX WOULD SERVE ALL THE PEOPLE OF CHARLOTTE. IF THIS WERE

A VJHITE MAI'I RUNNING FOR OFFICE 25 YEARS AGO, THEN HE V(OULD

BE BRANDED A TOM-FOOL LIBERAL IN MOST CITIES IN NORTH CAROLI

WITH THAT.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A I N YCUR EXPER I ENCE I N RECENT YEARS, I'1R . GREEN,

WHAT IS THE REACTIOI.J OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY VOTERS TO

POLITICIAT'IS WHO MAKE RACIAL APPEALS?

A THAT I S NOT DONE. THERE HAVE BEEN SOI'1E CAND I DATE

WHO HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME I*IADE SOME APPEALS TC RACE, SOME

VERY TH INLY VE I LED ATTEI"IPTS TO INC I TE ONE RACE OR THE OTHER.

AND VIRTUALLY-_THE POPULATION KIND OF ROSE UP AND THREW HIM

OUT.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, A VJOMAN OI.I THE CITY COUNCIL

TWO ELECTIONS AGO WAS VICTIMIZED BY SOME OLD FASHIONED

RED-BAI T ING RAC I SM. AND THE GUY IVAS DEFEATED OVERhIHELMINGLY .

AS A I1ATTER OF FACT, I THINK EVERY PERSON IN THE CITY, BLACK,

l/JH I TE, REPUBL I CAN AND DEMOCRAT, I,]HO WAS OF . AI\IY CONSEQUENCE,

ROSE UP I I.J ARMS AGA I NST THAT K I ND OF TH I NG.

A DO YOU KNOW OF ANY CANDIDATE ELECTED TO ANY

P. O- gor Ui63
Ll F.blgn. Nonn C.roxn. 2761t



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

72tc
PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY WHO IS THERE AND IN

OFFICE TODAY I/JHO USED A RACIAL APPEAL, SUBTLE OR OVERT, TO

GET ELECTED?

A NO. I DONIT. I THINK

MUCH DOWN TI-IE ROAD TC GOING BEYCND

SPEAK FOR ALL OF NORTH CAROLINA, OF

PRETTY MUCH DOWN THE ROAD TO DOING

THAT.

THAT WE HAVE GONE PRETTY

THAT IN CHARLOTTE. I CANI

COURSE. BUT WEIVE GONE

AI^/AY WITH A GREAT DEAL OF

a TELL THE COURT hiHAT YOUTVE OBSERVED IN YOUR

POLITICAL YEARS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY I^JITH RESPECT TO WHITE

PEOPLE AND VJHITE CANDIDATES ASSISTING AND SUPPORTING BLACK

CAND I DAT ES .

FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS, VOLUNTEER CAMPAIGN

I4ORKERS, APPLYING PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE, A LA COI'IPUTER

EXPERTiSE, ADVERTISING AND P.R. EXPERTiSE, DRIVING AUTOMOBIL

WORKING ON THE POLLS--THOSE POLLING PLACES WHERE POLLCATTING

IS ALLOWED-_THAT KIND OF THING.

THESE ARE WHITES GTVIruE ASSISTANCE TO BLACKS?

YES ; NORMAL ELECTIONEERING POLITICS. THERE

HAVE BEEN MATIY WHITES OVER A CONSISTENT PERIOD OF TIME AI{D

OVER A BROAD SPECTRUI.I OF CANDIDATES I..IHO HAVE RUN FOR OFFICE

VJHO HAVE DONATED TIME. I IM NOT TALKING ABOUT A SI'4ALL CADRE

OF l'/HITE LIBERALS, NOTHII'lG LIKE THAT.. I rM TALKII'JG ABOUT .JUST

GENERAL POPULATION PEOPLE/ SCME FROM SOME STRANGE SECTIONS

oF TOUJN I.JITH SOME STRANGE IDEOLOGIES--CONSERVATIVES, AND

A P. O aox 28lS
LJ n.t.lsh, Nonh C.rohn. 27611



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L I BERALS, AND ALL AREAS I N BETI,/EEN.

A AND D I D .J I M POLK RECE I VE SUPPORT FROM THE

COMMUNITY IN HIS SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN?

WHITE

a

TREMENDOUS SUPPORT.

AND MR. RICHARDSON IN HIS CAMPAIGN FOR THE HOUSE

TREMENDOUS SUPPORT.

a ARE THERE h'HITE ORGANIZATIONS__IDENTIFIABLy

I^JHITE ORGANIZATIONS IN MECKLENBURG COUT'ITY AND IN CHARLoTTE

THAT SUPPORT BLACK CANDIDATES?

YES.

CAI.I YOU NAME SOME ?

THE POLITICAL ACTION COI.IMITTEE OF THE GREATER

CHARLOTTE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE HAS CONSISTENTLY SUPPORTED

BLACK CANDIDATES FINAI'JCIALLY AS hIELL AS CRDERING OR ISSUING

PRESS RELEASES STATII.]G THEIR SUPPORT, AS WELL AS THEIR

l'lEMBERS GoIl'lG oUT AND ACTIVELy rlonrlNe FoR THEI.4r GIVING

PARTIES TO IIJTRODTJCE THE.CANDIDATE TO VARIOUS PORTIONS AND

CARRYING THE CAI.JDIDATE TO PEOPLE THAT THEY THII'.IK MAY BE ABLE

TO I I!FLUENCE PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR THEM.

AN OUTFIT CALLED SPACE/ WHICH IS THE SHELTER PROVIDERS

POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE, I{HICH IS AN OUTFIT COMPOSED OF

MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF REALTORS AND THE HOME BU I LDERS

ASSOCIATIONS--THE CHARLOTTE HOME BUILDERS ASSCCIATION--HAS

ENDORSED AND PROVIDED FUNDS FOR BLACK. CANDIDATES. AND YOU

KI'JOU/ IVHAT THAT MEANS I,IHEN THEY GO TO WOP.K FOR SOMEBODY.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779_3619 876.A57 1

PHOENIX- ARIZONAF P. O.8or 28lB
u Rrbrsh. Nodh c.rotin, 276tr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

F P. O. Bor 28lA
Ll Rsl.rgh. Nodh C.rolro. 276t r

MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876_4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1,242
THE V/OMENIS POLITICAL CAUCUS, WHICH IS PP.INCIPLY A h'HITE

I,JOMENTS ORGANIZATION; THE DEMOCRATIC MEN'S CLUB, wHICH IS--

I IM A MEMBER OF IT, AND THERE ARE BLACKS I,{HO ARE OFFICERS

Al'lD MEMBERS. BUT YOU Ktlol^,,--SO FORTH AND SO ON.

a

A

a

A

TIE PROCESS HAS BEEN--I CANIT NAME THEM ALL.

HOW ABOUT LABOR GROUPS?

YEAH, LABOR GROUPS HAVE, CERTAINLY.

AND TEACHERS?

YES, AND POL I CE AND F I REMEN .

MS . I^J I NNER : I OB.J ECT TO THE LEAD I NG

JUDGE PHILLIPS: KEEP IT IN BOUNDS.

MR. LEONARD: YES, SIR.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A I THIIIK YOU SAID THE POLICE GROUP?

A' YEAH, BUT THESE AREN'T WHITE GROUPS. YOU KNOW,

POLICE, FIP.EMEN AND TEACHER GROUPS NNT NOT WHITE GROUPS. THE

ARE INTEGRATED GROUPS. AND IN SOI.4E CASES YOU FIND BLACKS ]N

LEADERSHIP ROLES. SO I DCNIT CONSIDER THEM THEY ARE WELL-

INTEGRATED ENOUGH SO YOU CANIT CLASS THEM AS BLACK OR WHITE.

MR. GREEN, THEP.E HAVE BEEN SOME BLACK CAT\DIDATES

RECENTLY IN RECEI{T ELECTIOI.JS IN MECKLENBURG COUI'.ITY T'/HO HAVE

LOST, AND ] I{ANT YOU TO .JUST BRI EFLY TELL THE COURT, PLEASE,

hHAT IN YOUR OPINION VJAS THE PRIMARY OR MA]N CONTRIBUTING

FACTOR OR FACTORS TO THEIR LOSSES, IN YOUR OptNION. DR.

BERTHA MAXI^/ELL ?



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONIA

',;ci.
-I- ri:f .

A I THINK BERTHA HAD TWO PROBLEMS. THE FIRST

PROBLEM, OF COURSE,WAS AS A FIRST TIME CANDIDATE, THE LACK

OF GENERAL NAME RECOGNITION IN THE BODY POLITIC.

THE SECOND PROBLEM WAS THE FACT THAT HER MOTHER

BECAI.IE VERY ILL DURING THE CAMPAIGN AND DIED TOh'ARD THE END

OF THE CAMPAIGN, AND IT TOOK A GREAT DEAL OUT OF HER AND TOO

A GREAT DEAL OUT OF HER CAMPAIGN. SHE MADE A VERY ADMIRABLE

EFFORT UT.JDER THOSE C ] RCUIlSTANCES.

HOI{ ABOUR JIM POLK?

JII'1 POLKIS FIRST IS THE NAME RECOGNITiON. THAT

I./AS A PROBLEM. IT VJAS THE FIRST TIME OUT_-THE FIRST TIME

HE RAN FOR OFFICE. THE SECOND THING, HE RAN FOR--HE HAD TO

RUN IN THE 22ND SENATOR]AL DISTRICT I,IHICH INCLUDES CABARRUS

COUNTY. THERE IS SOI'1E EVIDENCE_-THERE IS SOME INFORMATION

THAT WE HAVE THAT TENDS TO SHO\^J THAT JIM POLK DIDI.J'T RECEIVE

IN CABARRUS COUNTY THE KII\ID OF SUPPORT THAT HE SHOULD HAVE

FOR VARYING REASONS, AND NOT ALL OF IT ALONG RACIAL LINES.

IN OTHER VJORDS, YOUIRE SAYING IT b'AS NOT RACE,

THE SUPPORT OR LACK-*

I'1S. T^lINNER: OBJECTION.

JUDGE PHI LL IPS: SUSTAINED.

BY MR.. LEONARD:

A COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY NOT ALONG

RACIAL LII.IES?

A THERE I,JERE SOME BLACK PEOPLE AS YOU HAVE WITH

F P. O. Bor mlSS
lJ R.bigh, xodh c.rotim 27crt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. lrlAlN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L244
ANY CANDIDATE, WITH ANY RACE, I{HO WERE NOT SUPPORTING .JI14

POLK--I4HO SUPPORTED OTHER CAND I DATES TO A GREATER EXTEI'JT THAI

THEY SUPPORTED JIM POLK.

a

CAMPA I GN ?

HOhI ABOUT THE RICHARDSON--LJIM RICHARDSONIS

A I THINK THAT YOU CAN ADD ONE FACTOR TO .JIM

RICHARDSONIS CAMPAIGN THAT'S PROBABLY COMMON THRCUGH THE

THREE THAT WEIVE TALKED ABOUT, THE MAXWELL CAMPA,IGN, THE

POLK CAIiPAIGN, AND NOhJ THE RICHARDSON CAMPAIGN. ONE OF THE

FACTORS I,/AS THE BLACK VOTE DIDNIT TURN OUT TO THE EXTENT THA

IT SHOULD HAVE. IN CABARRUS COUNTY AND iN }4ECKLENBURG COUNT

HAD BLACK FOLKS GONE TO THE POLLS IN ANYWHERE APPROACHING TH

POTENTIAL-_YOU IRE TALKING ABOUT AT THE TIME 35,OOO REGISTERE

BLACK VOTERS I N MECKLENBURG COUNTY, AI.ID YOU.' RE TALK I NG ABOUT

1 1,000 IDENTI FIABLE BLACK VOTERS GOING TO THE POLLS. YOU

KNOI4', EITHER OF THOSE FOL.KS I,IOULD HAVE WON ANYI(AY.

A IN YOUR OPINIOIJ, DID THESE THREE BLACK INDIVIDUA

HAVE A REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE FUTURE TO BE SUCCESSFU

CANDIDATES?

MS . I,J I NNER :

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

OB.J ECT I ON .

OVERRULED.

T{ITNESS: THEREIS NO DOUBT IN I'1Y

MIND, OR THEREIS LITTLE DOUBT_-JUST A TAD OF DOUBT THAT JIM

POLK AND JIM RICHARDSON WILL BE ELECTED. BER.THA I',IAXWELL HAS

SAID REPEATEDLY THAT SHE IS NOT GOING TO RUN AGAIN.

P. O. 8d 28tA
Ll R.l.ioh. Nodh c.ror'nr 2761I



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PHECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BUT I THINK BOTH .JIM POLK AND .JIM RICHARDSON

WILL BE ELECTED THE NEXT TIME OUT AS--ANY OTHER CANDIDATES--

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, YOU HAVE TO NORMALLY RUN AT LEAST

TWICE BEFORE YOU WIN AN ELECTION IN MECKLEI.JBURG COUNTY, IF

YOU ARE A QUALITY CANDIDATE.

A DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH RACE?

A I DONIT THINK SO. I THINK IT HAS TO DO VJITH

NAME RECOGNITION AND THE RECOGNIT]ON THAT YOU ARE A QUALITY

CAND I DATE AND YOU ARE W I LL I NG TO PAY THE PR I CE .

THERE I S ONE OTHER CAND 1DATE, ROE I'lOTLEY--

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINIOI.I AS TO l,,HY MR. MOTLEY, trlJHO tlAS, AS I

UNDERSTAND IT, APPOINTED AND THEN SOUGHT ELECTION, WAS UIJABL

TO BE ELECTED?

YEAH. ROE MOTLEY WAS A COUNTY COMMISSIOIJER AND

HAD SOME VERY EXTREME BUSINESS PROBLEMS AS A DEVELOPER. HE

VJAS A DEVELOPER AS WELL AS A COUNTY COMMISSIONER. HE STEPPE

DOI{N FROM THE COUNTY COMMISSION BECAUSE OF THOSE BUSINESS

PROBLEI4S.

AND THEN SENATOR FRED ALEXANDER, THE FIRST BLAC

SENATOR FROI.4 MECKLENBURG COUNTY DIED, AI'JD ROE }IAS NAMED BY

GoVERNoR.JIf4 HUNT To FILL oUT THE []NEXPIRED TERI'1 oF SENAToR

FRED ALEXAI.IDEtl. BUT IT I^IAS IN THE I.,1IDDLE OF THE ELECTION

Y EAR, I^rH I CH l"1EAl.'lT THAT YOU HAD FRED ALEXANDER ' S I.JAME ON THE

DALLOT , AND ROE piOTLEy RUNt,tI NG FCR THE SEt'.iATE AS FRED

ALEXANDER, CREATIIIG COI.IFUSION.

F P.O B)rUlS
lJ Flloroh. No'rh C..otri. 2761t



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, AR!ZONA

THERE WAS ALSO A GREAT DEAL OF CONSTERI{AT I ON__

THERE h'AS SOME CONSTERNATION IN THE_-I DONIT LIKE TO USE THE

TERI'1--THE BLACK_-AMONIG BLACK FOLKS ABOUT THE WAY THAT ROE I{A

NAMED TO THAT SLATE. AND THERE I,JERE TWO PEOPLE, ONE VERY

PROI"lINENT PERSON, REGINALD HAWKINS,, WHO ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNED

AGAINST ROE MOTLEY ALL OVER MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND INTO

CABARRUS COUNTY I.J.HERE I TH I NK HE D I D EXTREME DAMAGE , BECAUSE

HE CREATED--HE HEIGHTENED THE CONFUSION AGAINST ROE MOTLEY

BECAUSE OF SOME BUSINESS DEALINGS THAT THEY HAD HAD, I PRESU

BUT HE CAMPAIGNED AGAII..IST HIS ELECTION. SO THERE I,JAS SOME

REAL SPL IT GOING OI\I IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY ABOUT THAT.

A !1R. HAI{KINS IS A BLACK MAN THAT YOU TESTIFIED TO

EARLIER?

A R I GHT, THAT RAI.J FOR GOVERTJOR .

a t\rHAT ' S YOUR--I{HAT ARE YOUR OBSERVAT IONS WITH

RESPECT TO MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND TH; ABILITY OF BLACK

PEOPLE TO REGISTER AND VOTE?

A MY OBSERVATIONS REGARDING MECKLENBURG COUNTY

WITH RESPECT TO BLACK PEOPLE REGISTERING AND VOTII'IGa

. 
A ARE THERE AIJY BARRIEP.S?

A BARR I ERS ? NIO.

MR . LEO,\IARD : MAY I HAVE JUST ONE MOMENT ?

(PAuSE. )

a Do You HAVE AN OPINIOI'1, MR. GREEN, WITH RESPECT

TO WHY IN AN ELECTIOI{ 11,OOO BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF ]5,OOO

A P O Bor2Sla
LJ nrhlgn, Bo,rh C.roiln, 2781I



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

'1247
TURN OUT AS oPPoSED To A HIGHER NUMBER?

A lrvE GOT, MR. LEONARD, A LOT OF OPINIONS AS TO

WHY. I AM NOT AT ALL SURE THAT ANY OF THEM ARE VALID, JUST

LIKE EVERYBODY IN THIS COURTROOMIS GOT OT.,INIONS. I,JE CAN

TALK ABOUT HISTORY, THE IIIGLORIOUS PAST OF NORTH CAROLINA AS

I T P.ELATES TO I TS BLACK FOLKS AND OTHER M tNOR I T I ES .

I,{E CAN TALK ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS. BUT I THINK

IT REALLY BOILS DOI{N TO IS SO14ETHING CALLED INDIFFERENCE-.

IN MANY RESPECTS, INDIFFERENCE. AND I DONIT THII'JK THEREIS

AI!Y--THE AMER I CAIJ VOTER AND BLACK FOLKS ARE AMER I CANS AND

AYER I CAN VOTERS, AND \^/E ARE I ND I FFEREI{T--NOT APATHET I C,

It\JDIFFERENT. I'4CST OF THE TII'1E I.JE DONIT EVEI'I KI'JOI'J I'JHAT'S

GOING ON. AND THAT,S NO INDICTMEI.JT OF BLACK FOLKS; THATIS AN

I ND I CTMENT OF US AS A SOC I ETY, AS A PEOPLE_-ALL OF IJS .

a

CASE HAS

YOU NOT?

A

A PLEASE ASK I4E THAT QUESTION AGAIN.

IT STRA]GHT SO IILL KNOI,J V'HAT IIM ANSUJERING.

DO YOU KNOW THAT AN IMPORTANT ISSUE IN TH]S

TO DO h'ITH SII,IGL.E VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTP.ICTS, DO

YES.

I,(ITH RESPECT TO I'lECKLENBURG COUNTY, i1R. GREEN,

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO \^/HETHER OR NOT A CONTINUATION

OF A I'1ULTI-I"1EMBER DISTRICTING OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY DENIES

BLACK PEOPLE IN I'IECKLENBURG COUNTY AN OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT

CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE?

LET I.4E GET

A P. O. Bor 28rd
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DO YOU I-JAVE AN CPINIOI.I AS TO

(-ONT II.lUAT I0N OF'II-.IF U1;E OF MULTI *I',iEM8ER

IN MECKLENtsLJRG COUNTY DEI'.IY BLACK PEOPLE

OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR

A I lVE GOT A LOT OF OPINIONS,

I^JAYS. AGAIN, THERE ARE SEVERAL S IDES TO

ON THE SIDE OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS,

FACTORS, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN TALKED

NEED OF GOING BACK OVER THEM.

IiHETHER A

LEGISLATIVE DI STRI

IN THAT COUNTY AN

CHOICE?

MR. LEONARD, BOTH

THE ISSUE,AS I SAID

THERE ARE SOME

ABOUT;THERETS NO

CT

CERTAINLY, IF YoU DRAW SII.IGLE l.1El4BER DISTPICTS

UJHERE YOU HAVE A I4A.'ORITY BLACK ELECTORATE, THEN YOU ASSURE

PROBABLY THAT A BLACK PERSON WILL BE ELECTED FROM THAT

D I STR I CT . YOU DON ' T ASSURE ANYTHI NG ELSE . AI-L YOU ASSURE

THAT YOUIRE GOING TO GET A BLACK PERSON-_PERHAPS.

YES, IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, I IM--DRA\^]]NG S INGLE

MEMBER DI STRI CTS THAT ARE PREDOMINNTITT-V BLACK MAY LEAD TO

THE RESEGREGATION OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS. LOTS OF US -_

MANY OF THOSE FOLKS THAT TESTIfIED UP HERE THAT I READ ABOUT

IN THE NEWSPAPER LABORED LONG AND HARD TO DESEGREGATE, AND

IN FACT, INTEGRATE BEHAVIORALLY THE POLI'I'ICAL PRCCESS IN

MECKLENBURG'OIJI..ITY .

SEV!-RAL PEOFLE l^Jl-lOl'1 I r\"'E TALKED l^IITH--AND

i l: jI Cil,i ?, i;it r'-. i l'lTEir . i'.i;i';" i i' (:, Tl-i,\T I HAD

SUfjpOEi.ji\irD i:y yi.t_i ,,')l-..:.. ,ii i.l,i'lE ,Li' ii;R.;l Al.l ll l'ltLK. WE

TALKED ABOUT THE i--AC-I' -1'I-iAT..-OR IJE R,AISF-D THE ISSUE OF

I HAVE

BE EN

'VE

THE

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PFIOENIX, ARIZONAa P. O. Aot 20!31
L-J ReEn. iloirr C&rm ,?Ctr



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REGHETTO I ZAT I ON- -AN OLD POL I T I CAL \^/ARR I OR WHO HAS NO|J

AGED, TALKED ABOUT THE REGHETTOIZATION OF THE PROCESS.

THEY ALSO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE ONLY-- -

AND

MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO WHAT OTHER

PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT, ESPECIALLY WI THOUT EVEN SAYING I,/HO

HEIS TALKING ABOUT.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : MR. WITNESS, THE QUESTI

WAS WHETHER YOU HAD AN OPINION, AND I REALIZE YOU ARE RANGIN

A LITTLE BROADLY GIVING'A BASIS FOR YOUR OPINION. BUT IF YOU

WILL CONFINE YOUR ANSWER TO THE OPINION THAT YOU HAVE, THEN

THE LAWYERS CAN EXPLORE THE BASIS OF THE OPINION. BUT IF

YOU'LL CONFINE YOUR ANSh'ER NOhI TO THE OPINION THAT YOU MAY

HAVE ON THE MATTER.

WITNESS: YES, THE OPINION THAT

I HAVE, MR. LEONARD, I S THAT I F I'IECKLENBURG CCUNTY-_ALL OF

MECKLENBURG COUNTY V/ERE TO BE BROKEN UP INTO SII.IGLE MEMDER

DISTRICTS, THEN LOGIC I./OUL; DICTATE THAT I OPT FOR THE

GREATEST OPPORTUNITY THAT BLACK FOLKS CAN BE ELECTED.

HOWEVER, IT IS MY OPINIOI'I AT THIS TIME THAT WE ARE BEST

sERVED BECAUSE OF THE POPULATION, GEOGRAPIIY--I3LACK iN

I"iECKLENBURG COUNTY--BY A PROCESS THAT ALLOI'IS MORE THAN 'JUST

I+O TO 6O PERCENT OT THE BLACK POI:,LJLATION TO INPUT THE

POLi'i-iCAL PROCESS. ]'i.II-: '1';i,' '. Id(-JUI-L] tsE U/HAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH

THE TWO SINGLE ,vi[;,1ilr-ii :). r:'r'.:: rr ''^ t F YOU DRAW TUO SINGLE

MEMBER D I STR I CTS THAT ,4"i[ !]LT\C,Y. IN MECKLEI'IBURG COUNTY.

,? PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBII'{G, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX. ARTZONA
- 

P. O. 8or 2tldt
u R.5gh, Nonn c.6'in. 27ctl



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YOU WOIILD DISENFRANCHISE A GREAT PORTION OF

THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THEY WOULD HAVE ESSENTIALLY NO INPUT

INTO THOSE CANDIDATES THAT I^,OULD BE RUNNING AND I"IOULD STAND

AN OPPORTUNITY OR CHANCE OF BEING ELECTED FROM THE OTHER

PORTIONS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY THAT ARE NOT--WHERE YOU CANIT

FIND IDENTIFIABLE BLACK AREAS.

MUCH IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY

MORE. IT IS NOT IDENTIFIABLY BLACK.

OVER THE COUNTY--A GREAT PERCENTAGE OF

MR. LEOT.iARD: THATIS ALL,

C R O S S - E X A M', I N A T'I

IS NOT GHETTOIZED ANY

BLACK PEOPLE LIVE ALL

THEM.

THANK YOU.

'o N 2:40 P.M

a

MARKED AS

READ IT.

BY MS. WINNER:

MR. GREEN, I AM HANDING YOU VJHAT

PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NO. 88 AND ASK

HAS

YOU

BEEN

TO PLEASE

A DO YOU WANT ME TO READ IT ALOUD, MS. ITIINNER?

a .JUST READ I T T0 YOURSELF.

(WI TNESS COMPL I ES . )

IS THAT A RESOLUTIOT\ OF THE CIiARLOTTE irLACl(

COMMUNITY CAUCUS?

A l',!O, l'1A I Al'1 , ,-,'

a |-1AVE YCr..: r:":.i:

A i{OT ;i'i i',- : .:

TO TH I S, BUT NOl" r ii I li i.',

i 5 iicT.

::'.L:i'I -iHt:,r SEFOllE?

.,,.:,1 . i HAVE SEEN SOMETHING SIMILAR

'/il: r,l

PRECISION REPORTiIiG
AND TRANSCRIBING, iNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

,o
F P. O. Eor 2ElGt
LJ F.hlgh, }lodh Cdrolir zTaI



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a hiHAT FORM DID YOU SEE IT lN?

A SATURDAY, JUt,.y 23, THE VOTE 'rASK FORCE OF

MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS iIELD A

WORKSHOP ON VOTER REGISTRATION. THE EVENT WAS KEYNOTED BY

HARVEY GANTT,, CAND IDATE FOR MAYOR . JUST BEFORE THE CLOSE OF

THAT woRKSHoP, A LAWYER--TWo LAI^tYERS cAME up I^IITH THIS--t^/ITH

A RESOLUTION/ AND I EELIEVE THAT MUCH OF THE WOP.DING IS THE

SAME, AND GAVE IT TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BLACK POLITICAL

CAUCUS, REBECCA TAYLOR.

AT THE CLOSE OF THE SESSION__NEARING THE CLOSE O

THE SESSION, NOT ENOUGH COPIES WERE AVAILABLE EVEN FOR ALL

OF THE PARTICIPANTS, AND THIS WAS NOT A NORMAL CAUCUS MEETII.J

THIS WAS NOT A MEETING OF THE CAUCUS.

THI S WAS NOT READ. A SUPPOP.T I NG DOCUI4ENT \./I TH

A LOT OF HISTORY ON IT hJAS READ, AND IT h'AS XEROXED H/\NDI^JRIT

SEVERAL OF THE RIGULAR MEMBERS oF TTIT CAUCUS AT THAT T I I,1E

OB.JECTED EVEN TO THIS STINE PRESENTED AT THAT TII'1E, BECAUSE

THE CAUCUS WAS NOT IN SESSIONI,^AND THERE WAS MUCH CONFUSION

ABOUT WHAT I^JAS GOING ON.

THE CHAItit\1AN, P.EBECCA TAyLOR, SAID THAi StiE HAt)

A COMMITTEE WORKIt.,ic ON T|JE RESOLUTION, BUT IN ORDER TO

EXPEDiTE IT AND GET TI-IF1L.1LJGI.i SO WE COULD GET OUT OF THERE,

"HOi'1 li/iN!'/ PECPI-E I'Atr3p SlllGLE flElrBER DISTRICTS?" AI\lD I SAW

THIS" I rM llCT St-rilE ; I ;ir.'i iHi: :;A[:E THING, BUT IT WAS NOT

TYPED. IT'dAS A xERo)([D iiANDwRirrEN copy DELIVERED By rwo

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBTNG, I'.JC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA!-t l. O. gor 2tt8l!

f-j F.la,loh. Nonh C.roilo 276rt



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LAVJYERS.

AND THE CHAIRMAI..I OF THE CAUCUS SAID THAT-_SAID

THATIS HOW IT CAME INTO BEING.

A WHEN MS. TAYLOR ASKED HOW MANY PEOPLE THERE

FAVORED SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS, HOW DID YOU VOTE?

THE QUESTION--LET ME RETRACT---

JUST ANSbJER MY QUEST I ON.

I IM NOT SURE THAT THAT QUESTION EVER CAME UP,

MADAM.

A YOU JUST SAID A MINUTE AGO THAT MS. TAYLOR ASKED

HOVJ MANY PEOPLE FAVORED SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS. MY

QUESTION TO YOU IS HOW DID YOU VOTE WHEN SHE SAID THAT?

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : .JUST ANSWER THAT QUESTI

MR. WITNESS.

A I DOI'I'T THINK I VOTED. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I'M

SURE I DIDN,T, BECAUSE I.I,JAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO QUESTJOIJE

WHETHER OR NOT THIS WAS EVEN--THIS WAS--THAT IT WAS A CAUCUS

SESSION OR THIS WAS EVEN APPROPRIATE TO BRING UP AT THAT TIM

A YOUR TESTIMONY HERE TODAY IS AT THAT TIME YOU

DID NOT VOIE?

THAT I S ABSCI-L,TELY I.IHAT I SAI D. THAT I S ABSOLUTE

I DJD I.JO'[-VOTE.

(i '10i, r):D \!(.'l-'/'-rrl: r-\.GA,ii\i'ii- I'i?

ri I DiD i.iila ',.i'.",-,i i\Gr\llJST iT AND I DID NOT VOTE FOR

IT. I DID I'JOT VOTE.

PRECISION REFORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 A76.4571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

t'
F P. O. 8or ,lcl
lJ R.ngh. Xd$ C.rolim 2l!tr



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WIIA'I- WAS THE VOTE OF THE PEOPLE THERE?

THOSE HANDS THAT V]ENT UP_-THE HANDS THAT I./ENT UP

I{ERE THE ONES THAT I,/ERE RECCRDED. MOST OF THE PEOPLE VJHO

WERE THERE, AS i RECALL--AND I LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM--HANDS

DIDNIT EVEN--MOST OF THE PEOPLE DID NOT VOTE.

HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE?

TWENTY OR LESS. I DIDNIT COUNT THEM.

HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED?

I DIDNIT COUNT THEM.

A WHEN YOU WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLIN

i 96 0, I^IHAT I,{AS THE BLACK pERCENTAGE OF THE STUDENT BODy

THAT TIME?

A THERE UJERE 5 UNDERGRADUATES, 3 OR 4 LAIAI STUDENTS

1 MEDICAL STUDENT, AND A GRADUATE STUDENT IN BOTANY, AND A

GRADUATE STUDENT IN PSYCHOLOGY.

A

IN

AT

a

A

a

RELATED TO

OUT OF HOW I'1ANY STUDENTS IN THE UNIVERSITY'?

1O OR 11 THOUSAND.

AND YOU WERE EXPELLED FOR AN INCIDENT THAT

YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVITIES?

A FOII LOTS OF STUFF. THAT WAS JUST ONE OF THEM.

I,JAS Il'lTO A PROTEST CCIiFIGURATiOI'1, i'iY DEAR, AT THAT POINT.

a AND YoU I/ERE PROTEST iNG ,lLrOrJT C IVI L R IGHTS?

A t:'i'| .:-:.,

i.iR. I-i i:,.:.: : ij: I.:.]E COURT PLEASE, MAY

iI.ITERP.UI,T FOR.-,UST OI.IE i\iOJ\4ENT? T!-IE }.IITNESS HAS A SINIUS

i PtiEClSlCi,.l REPOTITING
ANO TRANSCRIBIT{G,'NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.601 281s

lJ F.brsh. Noih Ccr*. 7511



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PROBLEM. DO YOU VJANT THIS NOW?

I,,ITNESS:

MY HEAD IS HURTING. GO AHEAD,

BY MS. WINNER:

I 1^/OULD APPREC I ATE I T .

I AM READY.

A YOU TESTIFIED THAT HARVEY GANTT APPEALED ONLY TO

THE HIGH CHIC NEIGHBORHOODS. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT

HARVEY GANTT I S SUPPORT }\,AS I N THE CHERRY NE I GHBORHOOD?

I DONIT THINK I SAID THAT, MS. I^,INNER. I THINK

I^/HAT I SAID I^JAS HOW HARVEY GOT A BUM RAP BY--FROM THE--YOU

KNOW, SOME MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AND DEVELOPMENT

COMI',IUN I TY, REAL ESTATE COMMUN I TY. THEY SA I D THAT THAT I S WHE

HIS SUPPORT AND APPEAL CAME FROM. I DIDNIT SAY THAT HARVEY

HAD THAT.

A AND IS THAT BECAUSE MEMBERS'OF THE BUSINESS

COMMUNITY WERE-_YOU SAY MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY

ACCUSED MR. GANTT OF APPEALING ONLY iO THE UPPER CLASS

NE I GHBORHOODS ?

NO, THATTS NOT WHAT. I SAID. I SAID THAT HARVEY

oF THOSE PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW, THEGANTT BECAME THE CHAMPION

HIGH CHIC, V/HITE, MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE THAI'LIVED

ELIZABETH, A,ND SO FORTH AND SO ON. AND THAT GAVE

RAP.

)r) \'OU l-llA i- HAR\/t:'i ( APPEAI-ED TO THE

C iIERRY NT i GHiJOR:.]CL]:)

OF COURSE,

li, DEEiI'vJCl.l'lt,

HIM A BAD

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bd Zllts
u Rlren, taor6 Crd'[ ?r!tt

DID



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A D I D HAP.VEY GANTT APPEAL THE THE TRYON H I LLS

NE I GHBORHOOD ?

OF COURSE HE DID.

DID HARVEY GANTT APPEAL TO THE DRUID HILLS

NEIGHBORHOOD?-

OF COURSE HE DID.

DID HE APPEAL TO THE I./EST

OF COURSE HE DID.

S I DE COMMUN I TY ?

A WOULD YOU CONISIDER ANY OF THOSE TO BE HIGH CHIC

NE I GHBORHOODS ?

NO.

IN FACT, AP.E TRYON HILLS AND DRUID HILLS AND

CHERRY BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS?

UH-HUH.

AND WEST SIDE COMMUNiTY I5 A WORKING CLASS VJHITE

NE I GHBORHOOD ?

NO.

INTEGRATED NE IGHBORHOOD?

YES. ITIS A LITTLE BETTER THAN 5O-50 BLACK-

h/HITE.

A

a

HARVEY GANTT

/_\,

a

DO YOU THII{K IT I./AS A POPULAR CONCEPTION THAT

D I D NOT ,^.PPEAI- TO BLACK NE I GHBORHOODS ?

liO., Or i.ltJriSi: llO-i,

i\OW L)iili I,.,i; ii-l,,rl ii\i,1pAIGN DiD yOU EVER HEAR ANy-

ONE SAY OR READ ANYPLACE 'THAT THEY DID NIOT WANT CHARLOTTE

PFIECTSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

;

F F. O. Bor 2atct
L,! n hlgh, tonn crrc{m 27crr



7256
t'{ \ TO BECOME AI'IOTHER ATLANTA?

A I THINK THE REASON THAT SOMEONE HAS POINTED UP

TO ME THAT SOI"IEONE WROTE A LETTER TO THE EDITOR IN ONE OF

THE NEWSPAPERS SAYING THAT.

A AT THE TIME THAT CAMPAIGN WAS GOING ON, DID YOU

EVER READ IN THE NEWSPAPER OR HEAR ANYONE SAY THAT THEY DID

NOT WANT CHARLOTTE TO BECOME ANOTHER ATLANTA?

GIVE ME THAT AGAIN, PLEASE?

A AT THE TIME THAT CAMPAIGN tdAS GOING ON tg7g, DID

YOU EVER READ IN THE NEI,JSPAPER OP. HEAR ON THE RADIO, OR HEAR

ON THE T.V. OR HEAR ANYPLACE ELSE THAT PEOPLE SAID THAT THEY

DID NOT WANT CHARLOTTE TO BECOME ANOTHER ATLANTA?

IIVE SAID THAT MYSELF. SO I DONIT KNOW THAT IIV

HEARD ANY-- -

a DiD you HEAR IT DURING--IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT

CAMPA I GN ?

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A

a

A

REi\1EMBER.

a

THA-T CAi\lPA ]

rt,

a

OF ATLANTA

I DONIT REMEMBER.

YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD IT IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT?

I MAY HAVE HEARD IT, BUT IIM SAYING I DON'T

I DONIT RECALL THAT.

BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD IT IN THE CONTEXT OF

a t\l 2

i MAY i'1,a,yc' At'lD I MAY

./iliF Yt. r.t :.,.;,,,i- i- , i;,r'. i' L)U

'v/A S B L/rC 1,. ?

l'.iol . I Doti rT Kl.tow.

-i.il.qT C.Ai.IPAIGN THE MAYO

i1A.\',r

l.: I liri

PNEC'SION REPORTING
ANDTRANSCRIBING, I},IC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Aor ?tr(l

LJ R.brgh, Nffi C.roflm tlrttt



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WAS THAT MAYNARD JACKSON? IF MAYNARD JACKSON

WAS MAYOR OF ATLANTA THEN, THEN HE !'JAS BLACK.

A NOW YOU SAID-;YOU NAMED SEVERAL ORGANIZATIONS

THAT YOU SAY HAVE ENDORSED WHITE CANDIDATES AND ENDORSED

BLACK CANDIDATES?

YES.

YOU SAID UIM POLK RECEIVED TREMENDOUS SUPPORT

A

a

FROM WHITES?

A

a

AS IT WAS IN

A

MEAN IN

BECAUSE

THE

THE

UH-HUH.

IN YOUR OPINION IS THAT TRUE? IS THAT AS TRUE

THE GENERAL ELECTION AS IT WAS IN THE PRIMARY?

I BELIEVE IT WAS MORE TRUE IN THE PRIMARY--I

GENERAL ELECTION THAN IT WAS IN THE PR.IMARY

VOTE TOTALS WERE SO MUCH HIGHER.

:

I

A ISNIT IT TRUE THAT'THERE UIAS A COALITION SUPPORT

ING tJIM POLK IN THE PRIMARY THAT CTNSTO TO EXIST IN TIJE

GENERAL ELECTION?

A YOU TALKING ABOUT THE WOMENIS MOVEMENT?

a I rM ASKTNG YOU A QUESTTON.

A IF YOU MEA[.,I THE ACTIVITIES--Ii-IE ACTiOI..i OF IHt:

NATIONAL ORGANIZATION 0F VJOMEN, THEN yEAH. THEY MADE A--

I F THAT I S THE COALT ION Tt-tAT YOU: R'i 'i'-\;-K ING ABOUT, THEN THAT

. S Tl-i; Cril.'r' C\!i r)(CE!: l- T;-:; !'li'iCLE Pni)(.-.55: : ilir.T 1'/E UIENT THROUG

Ii,i C;?.[,Eit ']-O prJ-f .,. i ;:;.,) J.;.).,,1!l-.-.1:.i Cil;\t-iR TO RUi,l A CAi\IDIDATE IS

COALI T IOii DUI LDII'!G.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PIOENIX. ARtZot.IA

O+

F P, O. gor rat(l
LJ : Larh. t{odn c.,otr. 2?arr



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A AND ARE

ORGAN I ZAT IONS THAT

YOU QU I TE SUftE THAT ALL OF THOSE

YOIJ I.JAMED IIAVE ENDORSED BLACK CAI'IDIDATES?

UH-IJUH.

ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE CHARLOTTE WOMEN'S POLITIC

CAUCUS DOESNIT ENDORSE ANY CANDIDATES? WHITE OR BLACK?

PERHAPS YOU I RE RIGHT. THE CHARLOTTE I,/OMEI'I ' S--

BUT THE--I KNOW THAT'THE OFFICERS, MANY OF THE OFFICERS OF

THE WOMENIS POLITICAL CAUCUS HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN LOTS OF

BLACK CAMPAIGNS.

A BUT NOW YOUIRE NOT SURE THAT THEY ENDORSED BLACK

CAND I DATES ?

A IIM NOT SURE. IF THEY DO NOT ENDORSE CANDIDATES

THEN THEY DID NOT ENDORSE THAT CANDIDATE.AND IIM V/RONG ABOUT

THAT.

A YOU SAID THAT BERTHA MAXWELLIS PROBLEI1 VJAS THAT

SHE VJAS A FIRST TIME CANDIDATE IN 
'ggO, 

IS THAT RIGHT?

THAT WAS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS?

A NAME RECOGNITION. -. I SAID NAME RECOGNITION.h'AS

ONE OF HER PROBLEI'1S.

q BECAUSE SHE l^lAS A FIRST lll"1i uAi.lDIDti'tLl

A FIRST TIME OUT, YES.

a BUT Jir"l BLACi< 'ilAS ALSO A FIRST TIME CANDIDATE

iNl iyC0 ,,t,illi ilE -tJ;\S ILECT::). l,!AS HE i.l;,T?

iLJrl/Li1,\..r!

IIOW YOU SAID THAT CNE OF RICHARDSONIS PROBLEMS

A

a

FRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.60r !116

LJ i.bleh, *orth C.EIm 2rtrr



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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

I N NOT GETT I NG ELECTED '"JAS VOTER TURNCUT I N THE BLACK

COMMUN I TY . I S TT]AT YOI,IR TEST I I.1ONY ?

A YES. THAT WAS A PROBLEM. I SAID THAT WAS A

PROBLEM }JITH ALL THREE CANDIDATES THAT i TALKED ABOUT.

A YOU SAID PARTICULARLY I^IITH REGARD TO RICHARDSON?

A NO,I DON IT THINK I--IF I DID, THEN I DIDN'T MEAN

TO PLACE THAT EMPHASIS ON HIM, BECAUSE ALL THREE OF THOSE

CANDIDATES THAT RAN IN THE LAST GENERAL ELECTION GOT--YOU

KNOW, THERE WAS 250 OR 100 VOTES IN THE BLACK CO^IMUNITy

S EPARAT I NG THE VOTE TOTALS I N THE BLACK COI'IMUN I TY, OP. SOME-

THING OF THAT NATURE. IT VJAS VERY SMALL PER,CENTAGEW'I SE.

A SO NOW YOUIRE SAYING THAT BLACK TURNOUT WAS NOT

A PROBLEM IN THAT ELECTION?

A NO, I rM, SAyIt{c THAT THE BLACK TURNOUT WAS A

PROBLEM. ANYTiI.,IE YOU ONLY TURN OUT 11,OOO VOTES OUT OF

35,000 .REGiSTERED, THEN THAT r S A PROBLEM.

A ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTER

THAT TURNED OUT IN THE 1982 GENERAL ELECTION IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY WAS HIGHER THAN THE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE VOTERS THAT

TURNED OUT IN THAT ELECTION?

A IN THE PRIMARY.

A ITI THE GENERAL ELECTION.

A IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, TOO?

A YES, SIR. ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT?

A I KNEW IT I,/AS HIGHER IN THE PRIMARY. I I,JAS |IOT

F P. O. gor 2atail
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

J.26 0
At^iARE THAT IT blAS HIGHER. IN THE GENEP.AL ELECTION AL50.

I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT JUST THE OPPOSITE.

NOW YOU SAID ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF ROE MOTLEY

WAS THAT HE DID NOT GET THE SUPPORT OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

A NO, THAT'S I.IOT WHAT I SAID. I SAID THE BLACK

COMMUN I TY WAS SPL I T OI..I ROE MOTLEY, AND THAT I S THE TRUTH . I

DIDN'T SAY HE DIDI{IT GET THE SUPPORT OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY

AND I IVE TRIED-_IF YOU'VE UNDERSTOOD ME, I IVE TRIED NOT TO

US E THAT --'ITHE B LAC K COMMUN I TY . II

ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK

VOTERS VOTED FOR ROE MOTLEY ON THE BALLOT Tt/ITH ALEXAI'IDER?

NOT CURRENTLY. I 'VE GOT IT SOMEI\'HERE IN MY NOTE

HERE, BUT I DON'T RECALL THAT FIGURE NOW. BUT I WOULD SAY

THIS, THAT I WOULD SUSPECT THAT A GREAT MANY BLACKS, MOST OF

THE BLACKS I,/HO DID VOTE, VOTED FOR-_BUT THE VOTER TURNOUTI

BECAUSE. OF Tl.1E CONFUSION JHAT WAS Cnrnrro BY DR. HAWKINS

AND ATTORNEY BELL, YOU KNOW, WAS LOWER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE

BEEN

THAT SAME TURNOUT, THAT SAME CONFUSION ALSO WOUL

CARRY,OVER AMONG SOME OTHER FOLKS WHO WOULD BE VOTING FOR

ROE MOTLEY ALSO, THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY BLACK. FACTORS,

YOU KNOW, ITrS NOT Al.l ALL BLACK OR ALL WHITE. ELECTIONS

ARE NOT ALL BLACK AND ALL hIHITE. THIS IS MY--THATIS AN

ASSESSMENT AND I THINK I CAN MAKE A CASE FOR THAT.

A DO YOU KNOI./ WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACI( VOTETS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX ARIZONA

\./HO VOTED VOTED FOR MR . MO:iLEY ?

A III4 SAYING I WOULD SUSPECT THAT A VAST I,IAJORITY

oF THOSE I^/HO VOTED, VOTED FOR ROE MOTLEY.

A AND DO YOU KI'IOW WHAI PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE

VOTERS WHO VOTED VOTED FOR MR. ALEXANDER/MOTLEY?

A NO, I DONIT. I HAVE THAT IN MY NOTES AND I

DIDNIT---

A DO YOU THINK BLACKS AS A WHOLE IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY ARE POORER THAN I,/HI TE PEOPLE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND THAT THEY HAVE, BY AND LARGE, AS A WHOLE,

LOI,/ER EDUCAT I ONAL ACH I EVEMENTS ? AS A WHOLE ?

A THEYIVE GOT LESS SCHOOLING. NOh' ABOUT EDUCATION

ACHIEVEMENT, I I^JOULD QUESTION THAT.

, Q OKAY, HAVE LESS SCHOOLING.

A OKAY.

A AND IN FACT, BLACK STUDENTS IN MECKLENBURG COUNT

ST I LL FA I L TIIE COMPETENCY TESTS AT A H I GHER RATE THAN WHI TE

S TUDENT S ?

A YES.

A DO YOU THINK OF THAT AS A RESIDUE OF PAST DIS-

CRIMINATION?

A I CERTAINLY DO.

a A,!D :^roulD you sAy THAT MECKLENBURG COUNTY tS By

AI.ID LARGE RESIDENTIALLY SEGREGATED?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

P- O. Bor 28tai
lJ nrbtoh. Nodh c.rox^. z?cfl

MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I I./OULD SAY THAT DEPENDING OI.J WHOSE FIGURES

you LooK AT, S0MEWHERE BETWEEN 45 AND 60 PERCENT--65 PERCENT

OF BLACK FOLKS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY LIVT IN RACIALLY

IDENTIFIABLE AREAS. NOW, I'M NOT TRYING TO BE EVASIVE. I IM

SAYING THAT THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY SOMETHING THAT ONE CAN

ASSERT WITH ANY DEGREE OF STATISTICAL CERTAINTY AT THIS

POINT ABOUT MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

T^JE FIAVE RECEI.ITLY ORDERED SOME STUDIES TO BE DONE

TO DETERMiNE THAT. THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT CHARLOTTE

HOUSiNGI^JISE!-LIVING PATTERI.II^lISE AND HOUSII.IGI,JISE MAY BE A

MORE INTEGRATED CITY THAN ONE WOULD SUSPECT WHEN ONE LOOKS

AT IT, YOU KNOVJ, AT FIRST CLANCE.

A WOULD YOU SAY THAT MOST NEIGHBORHOODS IN CHARLOT

ARE iN FACT RACIALLY IDENTIF]ED?

A TO THE EXTENT THAT YOUIVE GOT MORE WHITE PEOPLE

LIVING IN A NEIGHBORHOOD,.YEAH, OR T; THE EXTENT THAT YOU'VE

GOT PIORE BLACK,PEOPLE LIVING IN A NEIGHBORHOOD, YEAH. BUT

ItM SAYING TO YOU THAT I DONIT-THINK--I THINK THAT YOU CAN

SAY THAT DEPENDING ON I,.JHOSE FIGIJRES YOU 'RE LOOKING AT, AND

HOW YOU DEFINE AND BOUl.lD A NEIGHBORHOOD, TFIAT SOMEWHERE

BETWEEN 45 AND 60 OR 65 PERCENT OF BLACK FOLKS THAT LIVE

IN CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG COUNTY LIVE IN NON-RACIALLY IDENTI-

F IABLE AREAS. NOW .THAT MEANS THAT THEY LIVE IN I4.,HI TE AREAS.

YOU CAN I T TELL I^,HETHER I T I S ALL BLACK OR ALL WHI TE.

DO YOU KNOhI Ir'HEN 14ECKLENBURG COUNTY STOPPED



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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

US II.]G THE L I TERACY TESTS FOR REG I STERED VOTERS?
A NO.

a HAVE yOU EVER, YOURSELF, GONE DOOR TO DOOR

TRYING TO REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE? BLACK PEOPLE TO VOTE?

A YES, MA'AM.

A DiD YOU ENCOUNTER FEAR AMONG ESPECIALLY OLDER

BLACKS THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE TO TAKE SOME SORT OF TEST IF

THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE?

A I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED THAT.

A HAVE YOU ENCOUNTERED ANY FEAR OF THE PROCESS OF

REGISTERING OR VOTING FROM OLDER BLACK PEOPLE?

A NO, I IVE ENCOUNTERED MORE FEAR OF THE PROCESS

FROM PEOPLE 18 TO 25 THAN I HAVE AMONG OLD FOLKS. OLDER BLAC

FOLKS TEND TO VOTE AT A HIGHER RATE THAN DO YOUNGER ONES

AS IS THE GENERAL POPULATION.

A NOW OVER THE YEARS YOU HAVE TAKEN SOME POSITIONS

THAT HAVE BEEN AT ODDS WITH OTHER LEADERS OF THE BLACK

COMI.4UNITY, IS THAT CORRECT?

A AND OTHER LEADERS IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY, TOO.

A ANSWER THE QUESTION. HAVE YOU TAKEN SOME

POSITiONS THAT HAVE BEEN AT ODDS WITH OTHER LEADERS OF THE

BLACK CO}1MUN I TY ?

A YES . BY 'IAT ODDSN 'YOU MEAN MY POS( T I ON D I FFERS ?

A THATIS RIGHT. DIFFERENT FROM MOST OF THE OTHER

MEMBERS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A I DONIT UNDERSTAND THAT. I DONIT UNDERSTAND

F P. O. Bor :'ttdt
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHAT YOU I RE IALK I NG ABOUT-_ "D I FFEREI.JT FROM t"loST OF THE

OTHER LEADERS IN THE tsLACK COMI.4UNITY.I'

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : I BEL I EVE THE QUEST I ON

WAS, HAVE YOU TAKEN A POSITION AT ODDS WITH THAT OF SOME OF

THE BLACK LEADERS. AI.,ID YOU CAN ANSWER THAT.

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, THE

COUNSEL CHANGED THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION WAS 'IMOST.''

JUDGE PHILLIPS: LETIS HAVE THE OUESTION

REPHRASED BEFORE WE PUT IT TO THE WITNESS.

BY MS. WINNER:

A OVER THE YEARS, HAVE YOU TAKEN SOME PRIDE IN

EXPRESSING YOUR INDIVIDUAL OPINION ABOUT ISSUES?

A I HAVE TAKEN NO __NO, MS. WINNER, I TAKE NO

PRIDE IN EXPRESSING AN OPINION. I ONLY SAY WHAT I THI}JK IS

P. ] GHT AND THE TRUTH. NOI,/ I F THAT, THEN, I S PR I DE, THEN I

DO.

A AND THAT OPINION WHICIj YOU BELI EVE IS TRUE HAS

FREQUENTLY BEEN DIFFERENT THAN^THE OPINION OF OTHER BLACK

LEADERS ?

A THAT I s --You Kl'low, THAT ' s oNE oF THosE QUEST I oNS

JUDGE PHILLIPS: TJUST ANSWER IT, MR.

WITNESS, THEN YOU CAN ELABORATE ON IT.

'/:ITNESS: I IM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAN

I^'HAT THAT MEANS . I REALLY AM NOT . YOUR HONOR, I 'M SORRY,

BUT I ' M IIOT SURE I UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS.

ff P. O. &r 1!1cll
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BY MS . I,J I NNER :

A LET I4E GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. YOU SUPPORTED EDDIE

KNOX FOR MAYOR I N I97 9, I S THAT CORP.ECT ?

A I DID.

A AND WOULD YOU SAY THAT MOST OF CHARLOTTEIS BLACK

LEADERS SUPPORTED HARVEY GANTT?

A NO, I COULDN'T SAy THAT. I CAN SAy THAT I.4OST OF

CHARLOTTEIS BLACK PEOPLE, BUT I'M NOT ABOUT TO BE PUT IN A

POSITION OF DETERMINING WHO IS A LEADER AND WHO IS NOT, BECA

THERE ARE VERY PROMINENT BLACK PEOPLE I^IHO SUPPORTED EDDI E K

I IM JUST ONE OF THEM. LIKE THERE I,JERE VERY PROMINENT PEOPLE

WHO SUPPORTED HARVEY GAI'ITT. NOW IF BY LEADER YOU MEAN

PROM I NENT BLACKS OR BLACK FOLKS WHO ARE FAMOUS, THEN I CAI.!

TALK ABOUT THAT.

A LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION. WOULD YOU SAY THA

MOST BLACK VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY VOTED FOR HARVEY

GANTT IN L979?

A YES, I CAN SAY THAT.

A AND TO THAT EXTENT YOUR OPINION I,/AS DIFFERENT THI

THE OPINION, OF; MOST BLACK VOTERS IN THAT INSTANCE?

A MY OPINiON WAS DIFFERENT THAN MOST BLACK VOTERS;

19,000 our oF 35,000.

a AND OUT OF THAT 35,000, HOVJ MANY VOTED?

A 19,000.

a voTED ?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A OSTENS I BLY. YEAH.

A HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER INSTANCES WHERE YOUR

OPINION WAS DIFFERENT I-|IOM THE OPINION OF MOST BLACK PEOPLE

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A I DON'T KNOVJ, MS. WINNER. WE DONrT LIVE IN A

MONOLITHIC SOCIETY. BLACKS ARE NO MORE MONOLITHIC IN OPINI

THAN I,JH I TES AR E .

A ON THE ISSUE OF SIII{GLE MEMBER DISTRICTS VERSUS

MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER

SINGLE MEMBER DISTRiCTS WOULD BE BETTER FOR THE BLACK

COI"IMUNITY IN CHARLOl'TE?

A I STATED THE OPINIOT\ TI-1AT YES, THAT IN THE EVENT

THAT YOU CARVE IT OUT, THEN I WOULD RATHER SEE AN OPPORTUNIT

FOR BLACK FOLKS_-MORE BLACK FOLKS TO GET ELECTED. THATIS

THE OPINION THAT I STATED.

A IS THAT OPINION SINGLE MEMBERS DISTRICTS WOULD

BE BETTER THAN MULT I _MTT.,1ATN D I STR I CTS ?

A MAIAM, YOU''VE HEARD ME SAY EARLIER THAT AT THIS

POINT IN HISTORY I DONIT THINK SO. THIS COURT HAS GOT TO

DECIDE THAT AND IIM SAYING THAT THE WHOLE THING IS CONFUSING

JUDGE PHILLIPS: .JUST ANST(ER THE QUESTION

THAT COUNSEL PUTS TO YOU, MP.. WITNESS.

BY MS. V/INNER:

a I rM HAVING SOME TROUBLE UNDERSTANDITIG YOU. YOU

SAI D THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT I F THERE WERE I'4A.JORITY BLACK

A P. O.8ot 2r1B
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

-: a) ./' r',)-AO (
D I STR I CTS THAT WOULD BE BEST ?

A NO, I DID].J ' T SAY THAT WOULD BE BETTER. I SAI D

WE WOULD ELECT BLACK FOLKS. I DIDNIT SAY THAT WOULD BE

BETTER.

A DO YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO ELECT BLACK

REPRESENTAT IVES?

A YES, I DO.

A AND DO YOU THINK THAT SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

WOULD iNCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD THAT BLACK REPRESENTATIVES

I^/OULD BE ELECTED FROM MECKLENBURG coUNTY?

A YES, IF THEY ARE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT

ARE MAJORITY BLACK.

A IF THERE WERE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT WERE

MAJORITY BLACK, THAT WOULD INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD THAT

BLACK REPRESENTATIVES WOULD BE ELECTED FROM MECKLENBURG

COUNTY ?

A UH-HUH.

A IT WOULD ALSO INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD THAT A

BLACK SEI.JATOR I,/OULD BE ELECTED FROM THE MECKLENBURG

CABARRUS SENATE DISTRICT? IS THAT ALSO YOUR TESTIMONY?

IF THERE ARE A MAJORITY BLACK---

A I HAD NOT EVEN CONSIDERED THE SENATE.

a |,/ELL, I WI LL NOW ASK yOU TO CONS I DER I T. I F

THERE ARE A MAJORITY OF BLACK SINGLE MEMBER SENATE DISTRICTS

WOULD THAT INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD THAT A BLACK SENATOR

F P. O. 8or 2!l*!
lJ n.brch, No(h c.ErM 27crr



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PFECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PI{OENIX, ARIZONA

WOULD BE ELECTED FROM I'lECKLENIBURG COUl\JTY ?

OBVI OUSLY.

AND IN YOUR OpINIOt.l, cIVEt't THE CURRENT MECKLEN-

BURG AND CABARRUS SENATE DISTRiCT, DO YOU THINK THAT BLACK

PEOPLE, THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS A I.JHOLE, HAVE AN EQUAL

OPPORTUNITY AS I^iHITE PEOPLE TO ELECT SEI.JATORS OF THEIR

CHOICE?

I --WAIT.A. MINUTE NOI.J. LET ME SEE IF I--LET ME

SEE IF I GOT ALL OF THAT QUESTION. THAT BLACK PEOPLE AND

i^/HITE PEOPLE--BLACK PEOPLE HAVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AS DO

N"HITE PEOPLE TO ELECT A SENATOR OF THEIR CHOICE?

YE5.

IS TI.IAT THE QUESTION?

Y ES, THAT I S THE QUEST I ON .

I TH I I.,IK THAT I N THE CURRENT S I TUAT I ON THAT YOU

ARE GOING TO ELECT FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY A BLACK SENATOR

AND SOME ADDITIONAL BLACKS TO THE GENERAL-tTO THE LOWER--TO

THE HOUSE, NO MATTER I"/HAT YOU OO TO MECKLENBURG COUNTY..

A SO YOUR PREDICTION IS THAT IT I.JOULD BE THE SAME

OP PORTUN I TY ?

A I'M SAYING THAT YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT

A BLACK. WE WILL ELECT A BLACK TO THE SENATE NO I.IATTER I,/HAT

YOU DO. \^/E'RE GOING TO ELECT BLACKS TO THE HOUSE, NO MATTER

WHAT YOU DO.

L I STEN TO I.1Y QUEST I ON A L I TTLE I.lORE CAP.EFULLY .

"-t 
P. O. Bor 2ElCil

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? PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCHIBING. INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

i259
I IT1 NOT ASKII.IG YOU WHAT THE COLOR OF THE PERSON VJHO, IS

GOING TO BE ELECTED MIGI'IT BE IN 1984,, 6 OR 8. WHAT [ ,M

ASK I NG YOU I S \^IHETHER UNDER THE CURRENT CoNF I GURAT I oN oF

THE MECKLENBURG AND CABARRUS COUNTY SENATE DISTRICT, DO YOU

THINK THA] THE. BLACK CITIZENS HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AS

WHITE CITIZENS TO ELECT SENATORS OF THEIR CHOICE?

A BLACK FOLKS BY THEMSELVES, LIKE DEMOCRATS, CANNO

ELECT ANYBODY. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN'T ELECT ANYBODY

I.JITHOUT BLACK VOTE. AND BLACK FOLKS IN NORTH CAROLINA AI.JD

I I.] MECKLENBURG CAN ' T ELECT ANYBODY BY THEMSELVES .

a LET ME ASK yOU .JUST ONE OTHER QUESTION.

A OKAY.

a DOES ANy OF YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY GO BEYOND THE

BOUNDS OF MECKLENBURG AND CABARRUS COUNTY?

A I DONIT UNDERSTAND THAT.

A DO YOU SUPPORT OR NOUU O*' SUBSTANTIAL EXPERIENC

IN POLITICS ANY PLACE ELSE,IT.I THE STATE BESIDES MECKLENBURG

AND CABARRUS COU},ITY?

A DO I. PURPOP.T TO HAVE ANY SUBSTANT IAL EXPER I ENCE?

A ARE THE OPINIONS THAT YOU EXPRESSED TODAY LIMITE

IO MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A OPINIONS ABOUT NIORTH CAROLINA POLITICS? MECKLEN-

BURG ?

a You HAVE EXPRESSED soME opINIoNS ABour V{THETHER

S iNGLE OR i.4ULT I -MEMBER D I STR I cTS I^IoULD BE BETTER . ARE THoSE

F P. O. &r il18
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I PRECISION REPORTING

ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571,

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OP 1N I ONS L I 11I TED TO ME..C I.LEIJI]UF<G COUNTY ?

A OH, YES . YES. I 'M TALK ING SPEC I F I CALLY ABOUT

MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

MS. WINNER: THANK YOU.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N ]:10 P.M

BY MR. LEONARD:

a MR. GREEN, LET ME SHOI/ YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED

GINGLES EXHIBIT NO.4(A). I REMIND YOU THAT THIS IS IN

EVIDENCE AND THAT--YOU RECCGI.JIZE I.HIS AS I'.iECKLENBURG COUNTY?

UH_HUH.

HE AREA INSIDE THE RtD LiNES ARE ONE ALTEP.NATI

OR PROPOSED CR POSS I LBE AREA THAT COULD BE DIVI DED INTO TI(O

HOUSE DISTRICTS, BOTH OF VJHI CH l''OULD BE 60 PERCENT OR BETTER

BLACK POPULATION. AND YOU UNDERSTAI..ID THAT THE ISSUE IN THE

CASE INVOLVING SINGLE MEMBER VERSUS MULTI-MEI"IBER DISTRICTING

HAS TO DO I,JITH THIS OR SOI'4E KII'.lD OF COt\IFIGURATION TO CREATE

THESE MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICTS,

I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS ON THIS SUBJECT. FIRST,

ASSUMING THI S OR SOME S ii"II LAR PROPOSAL }IERE TO BE ADOPTED

FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER

IT I5 LIKELY OR PROBABLE THAT BLACKS COULD ELECT A MEMBER OF

THE HOUSE OF REPPESENTATIVE FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY OUTSIDE

OF THOSE T\.JO DISTRICTS?

I.4S. IIINI'IER: I OBJECT ON THE BASIS

A P, O. Aor 2lls
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

F P. O- Bor 28141
Ll Brbroh, Nodh c.roxm 27or r

MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT THE QUESTION DOESN'T SPECIFY IJOW THE oI.I1ER.-REST oF

THE AREA l^/OULD BE DIViDED.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A AND I\iR. GREEN, WHETHER I T woULD BE D I VI DED I NTo

SINGLE MEI\,IBER .DISTRICTS--SIX OTHER SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

OR WHETHER IT WOLIO BE ONE MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICT, DO YOU

HAVE AN OPiNiON?

YES. I THINIK IT WOULD BE VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

TO ELECT A BLACK IN THAT AREA OUTSIDE OF THE TI{O

S INGLE MEMBER D I STR I CTS ?

HEIS NOT

h' I TNESS .

WITH THAT

IN TERMS

YES, BECAUSE YOU--

MS . I^I I I.JNER :

ONLY LEADiNG, BUT HEIS

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

QUEST ION:. I KNOW YOU

NOT SO DIRECTLY 
"*U 

AN

BY MR. LEONA.RD:

I OBJECT TO LEADING.

FINISHiNG THE ANSWER FOR THE

MR. LEONARD/ START OVER

HAVE THE ABILITY TO PUT IT

ANSWER.

I,JHAT I S YOUR pOTENT IAL, MR. cREEN, A5 TO THE--

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION AS TO THE POTENTIAL OF BLACKS BEING

ABLE TO ELECT A BLACK CANDIDATE IN THE BALAI'JCE OF MECKLENBUR

COUNTY OUTSIDE OF THE .Ii\'O SINGLE 14EMBER DISTRICTS IRRESPEC-

TIVE OF VJHET}TjER THE BALANCE OF THE COUNTY IS SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICTED OR I'HETHER TIlE SIX REPRESENTATIVES ARE CHOSEN AT

LAR.GE ?



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I THI,\IK IT I{OULD BE, MP.. I.EONARD, VIRTUALLY

IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE FOt,LOI^'ING P.EASONS: AND I 'I'1 GIVING THIS

IN A TIMEFRAME, PLEASE, OVER TI-IE NEXT 5_10 YEARST BECAUSE

THE PRINCIPAL VOTING STRENGTIJ THAT IS BLACK IN CHARLOTTE IS

IN HIGHLY DEVELOPED AND ORGANIZED AND ACTIVIST PRECI].ICTS

ARE LOCATED IN THOSE DISTRICTS.

THERE ARE OTHER BLACKS WI-IO L IVE OUTS I DE OF THOSE

BOUNDARIES WHO ARE ACTIVISTS,. BUT'THERE ARE NOT EI',IOUGH OF

THEM PUT TOGETHER TO ACCOMPLISH VERY MUCH. FOR EXAMPLE,

CHERRY, AS YOU NAMED, AI.]D GREER HEIGHTS, THAT AP.E OUTSIDE

OF THESE BOUI.JDAR I ES.

THE OTHER THING IS THAT WHAT i THINK YOUIVE DONE

IF YOU LEAVE A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT WITH TI.JO SINGLE MEMBER

BLACK DISTRICTS THERE, BECAUSE THAT QUADRANT OF SOLIDITY WE

CALL SOUTHEAST CHARLOTTE, IS-_THAT QUADRANT OF CHARLOTTE

CONSTITUTES 45 PERCENT OF. THE VOTiN; STRENGTH IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY, NOT BY SHEER NUMBERS OF POPULATIOT'i, BUT BY SHEER

INCIDENCE OF VOTER REGISTR,ATION AND VOTING TUP.NOUT. SO

I THINK YOU WOULD II,ISURE-*AIJD THAT PORTION OF CHARLOTTE

IS PERHAPS THE--IS CONSIDERED THE HOTBED OF STUFF THAT IS

THE ANTITHESIS OF THOSE CAUSES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO US,:

THOSE PEOPLE PROGRAI4S AND THINGS THAT MUST BE DECIDED ON

BY THE LEGISLATURE THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO BLACK FOLK.

SO I THII.IK THEN, THAT YOU WI LL HAVE INSURED THAT

IJHAT YCU GOT ARE TWO BLACKS.

Ft P. O. gor 26tC3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

a Do you HAVE At{ ()PINION AS TO ,,{HEI-HER OR ilOT

THE BLACK PEOPLE OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY HAVE A REASONABLE OR

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT AT LEAST TI.]O OR MORE MEMBERS OF

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTAT I \,/ES FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY WI THOUT

S I NGL.E MEMBER I NG THE D I STR I CT ?

A YES, I THINK THAT\S--YES, I THINK SO.

A I DONIT THINK I ASKED YOU FOR THE RECORD, BUT

YOU ARE AN AI"IERICAN, MALE AND BLACK, ARE YOU NOT?

A YES, SIR.

a Not/, l,\,oulD You TAKE A LOOK AT EXHIBIT NO. 88

THAT COUNSEL HANDED YOU ON CROSS-EXAMII.IATION?

A YES.

A WHAT IS THE YEAR OI.I THAT EXHIBIT?

A 1981.

a IS THE DATE .JULY 23, 1983?

A YES.

a rEN DAYS, neenoxIMATELY, AGO?

A YES.

A WAS THERE ANY ADVANCE NOTICE GIVEN TO THE

MEMBERSoFTHEBLAcKCAUCUSoRTHEVoTETASKFoRCEwHo

ATTEI'JDED THE MEETING ON .jULY 23, 1981, THAT THERE WOULD BE

A RESOLUTION PRESENTED ON THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-

I'lEMBER DISTRICTING?

I4S. WII'INER: I OB.JECT TO HIS ANSWERIN

\,IHETHER ANYOI.IE OTHER THAN HE RECEIVED ANY ADVANCE NOTICE,

A P. O. 8or i,tlAi!
IJ R.nsh. )ao.o Crolo ,r0il



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OR

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457:|

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OPl ,ira:t
7
JLBECAUSE HE CAN I T KNOW WHAT K I ND OF ADVANCE NOT I CE ANYOI.JE

ELSE RECEIVED.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : AsK THE QUESTION IF HE

KNOWS .

BY. MR. LEONARD:

a Do You KNovJ TJHETHER ANY ADVANCE NOTICE WAS GrVEN

THAT THAT ISSUE WOULD BE PROPOSED AT THAT MEETING?

A AS OF THURSDAY NIGHT BEFORE THAT MEETING, NO.

AS OF THE THURDSAY NIGHT PRIOR TO THE SATURDAY MORNING, NO.

a No, WHAT?

A NO, THERE v,rAS NO--THERE WAS NO ADVANCE NOTICE T

THIS WAS GOING TO COME UP AND IT WAS---

MS. WINNER:

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

I

I MOVE TO STRIKE.

t^JE'R.E GOING TO TAKE A

RECESS UNTI L ]: ]0.

(THE PROCEEDTNG WAS RECESSED AT 5:L5 P.M., TO

RECONVENE AT 
'3 

:30 P. M. , TH I S DAME DAY. )

P- O. Bor IlCt]
u R.hr![r, Nonn c.Elr 2rcrt



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o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FUR'TIIER PROCEEDINGS J :30P .M .

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

AND THE ANSWER ON I,JHICH THERE I,\'AS

ANYBODY CAN RECALL?

WHAT WAS THE QUESTIOI.I

A MOTION TO STRIKE, IF

MS . T{I NNER : THE COURT REPORTER HAS

BEEN NICE ENOUGH TO READ IT BACK TO ME A MOMENT AGO. THE

QUESTiON WAS WHETHER HE KNEW WHETHER NOTICE HAD BEEN GIVEN

PRIOR TO THE MEETING, AND HIS ANSWER WAS NO NOTICE HAD BEEN

GIVEN. MY MOTION TO STRIKE IS BASED FIRST ON THE FACT THAT

IT IS UNRESPONSIVE AND SECOND OF ALL THAT HE CAI.JIT HAVE KNOI,J

WHAT ANY NOTICE ANY'OTHER PERSON OTHER THAN HIMSELF GOT.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : I,IE I LL SUSTAIN THAT MOTIO

TO STRIKE, LET THE COURT I'4AKE THI S VERY GENERAL OBSERVATION

ABOUT THE COUP.SE OF THE PROCEEDINGS.. IT'S--OF COURSE, THE

ISSUE AT LARGE IS A MONUMENTALLY VAGUE AND OPEN-ENDED ONE.

IT HAS IN THE CENTER OF IT AN ASSESSMENT OF THE TOTALITY

OF CIRCUMSTANCE GOVERNING THE PARTICIPATION OF THE VOTING

FP.ANCHISE. COUNSEL HAVE UNDERSTANDABLY CHOSEN TO GIVE A

PERCEPTION OF THE INNER I,/ORKINGS OF POLITICS IN SELECTED

AREAS OF THI S STATE BY A LIMITED NUMBER OF I^IITNESSES t,JHo

HAVE BEEN CHOSEN VERY CAREFULLY BECAUSE THEY ARE PEoPLE I^,Ho

HAVE EXPER I ENCE.

AND FOR THAT REASON, THE COURT HAS BEEIJ DISPOSET)

F P. O.8or:llB
LI R.brsh, Nonh cr@tt.. ?rat I



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TO LET THE TESIIMONY LlE FAIRLY FREE-RAI:GIIIC BECAUSE IT

I S GhP.MANE TO SOI',IE VEP.Y t^/I DE I SSUES . THERE I S A TENDEIICY,

HO\^/EVER, PERFECTLY OBVIOUS NOW, FOP. THF EXAMINATIOIJ AND THE

CROSS TO DELVE INTO DETAILS OF NOTICE GIVEN FOR A PARTICULAR

MEETING, PART OF THE STUFF OF LOCAL POLITICAL SQUABBLES.

YOU GET FURTHER AND FURTFIER C-\UT ON THE FRINGES OF ANY

CAPACITY ON THE PAii,T OF THE COURT TO ADDRESS THE LONE ISSUE.

I VJOULD NOT KNOW HOW TO RULE TO CURVE IN THE

COURSE OF EXAMINATION TI-IAT HAS: TRANSPIED, YIiTH P.ESPECT TO

THE ROCKY MOUNT WITNESS I EXPERIENCE iN ONE PRECII.JCT OR THE

EXPERI ENCE CF THI S WITNESS iN ONE I'lEETINIG OR II.] ONE CAUCUS

OF UNDETERI4INED NATURE AND SiZE. AI.]D I CAN ONLY SAY THAT

IF COUNSEL WILI- BE AI,JARE OF THE FACT THAT THEP.E MAY BE A POII

OF DIMINISHiNG RETURN IN THE CAPACITY OF THE COURT TRULY TO

MAKE TOO I.4UCH OF THESE VERY FINE DETAILS OF LOCAL POLITICAL

SQUABBL'ES , THAT l,,OULD PROBABLY .gf HELPFLIL TO THE PROCESS.

ONCE IT'S OPENED UP, OF COURSE, I REALIZE THAT

THE OTHER S IDE I S DUTY BOUND TO REBUT, AND TO CROSS-EXAI.4INE

AND TO EXPLORE PERCEPT IOI..IS AND ALL OF THAT. AND I IM TAKING

I'1CRE TIME THAN i |'IEANT IO TAKE TO ADMONISH. AS I^/E COI4E TO

THE END OF THE TRAIi. , IF YOU IIILL, BE MINDFUL OF THE FACT

THAT YOU MAY BE GETTING TO THE POINT OF COUNTERPRODUCTION

AND AFFECTING THE PERCEPTION OF THE COURT OF HOI{ THINGS

REALLY STAND I N MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND WAKE COUNTY, Al.'ID

so oN . rv I TH THAT ADMON I T I ON, PROCEED .

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085

779.3619 876.457]r

PHOENIX ARIZONA



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25r PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

(I^/I-IEREUPON,

MALACHI .J. GREEN,

THE WI TI.IESS ON THE STAND AT THE T IME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTiFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
RE SUMED

3:35 P. M

BY MR. LEONAP.D :

t^llTH THAT ADr'lONITION, IN MIND, I HAVE ONE FINAL

QUEST I ON. TO YOUR KNOI./LEDGE D I D THE CHARL'OTTE-MECKLENBURG

BLACK CAUCUS EVER TAKE THE POSITION ON THE ISSUE OF MULTI-

MEMBER VERSUS S INGLE MEI{BER DI STRICTS PRIOR TO JULY 23, 198]

AND THAT QUESTION IS ASKED TO YOU BASED ON COLLOQUY BETWEEN

YOU AND COUNSEL THAT SOMETHING HAPPENED WITH RESPECT TO THAT

ISSUE ON THAT SATURDAY MORNING.

A THE QUESTION IS, DiD WE, THE CAUCUS TAKE ANY

POSITION ON SINGLE MEMBER, MULTI-MrMgrn DISTRICTS? NOT

TO I4Y KNOI^JLEDGE . NO.

MS. WINNER: HAVE A FEW MORE

QUESTIONS.

R E C R O S S _ E XAI,l I NAT I ON ,:37 P.M.

BY

A MR.

FOR THE GENERAL

THE LAST FOUP. OR

MS . I,J I NNER :

GREEN, HAVE YOU EXAMINED THE ELECTION RETURN

ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS IN MECKLENBUP.G COUNTY FOR

SIX YEARS?

F P. O. Bor 2tl6ll
LJ e.hrqh, Noiln C.roilM 27Gtt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.457',

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. LEONARD: I F THE COUt.IT PLEASE,

THAT I S BEYOND TIIE SCOPE OF THE REDIRECT EXAMINAT ION.

JUDGE PH I LL I PS : HOW DOES IT RELATE TO

REDIRECT, MS. WINNER? HE ASKED ONE QUESTIOI{--wELL, THE

LAST QUESTION.ON REDIRECT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE ONLY

TH I NG I THI NK HE EXPLORED ON RED I P.ECT .

MS. WINNER: I HONESTLY--I CANNOT

CANDIDLY SAY THAT I CAI'I RECOGNIZE WHAT WAS ON DIRECT OR

REDIRECT, BUT I INTEND TO ASK HIM WHETHER HE THINKS THAT

RACE WAS A FACTOP. iN DEFEAT OF THESE THREE CANDIDATES MR.

LEONARD ASKED HIM ABOUT.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL,ASK THAT ONE

QUESTION IN THE SPIRIT OF THE LENGTTHEIIING SHADOWS.

MS . I,JI NNER :

THEM OI.IE AT A TIME?

FOR CLARITY, COULD I ASK

.JUDGE PH I LL I P.S :

MS. WINNER:

BY MS. I,JINNER: .

YES.

THANK YOU.

A DO YOU THINK THAT RACE WAS A FACTOR IN DEFEAT OF

BERTHA MAXWELL FROM THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

A NO.

A DO YOU THINK THAT RACE V/AS A FACTOR IN THE

DEFEAT OF JIM POLK WHEN HE RAN FOR THE SENATE?

A MS. WINNER, LET I.lE CHANGE THE ANSWER TO THAT

F I RST QUEST ION. YEAH.

F P. O. Aor 2tll$
lJ R.btsh. iao.$ crdlo 27arr



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PREGISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DO YOU THINK THAT RACE IS A FACTOR IN THE

DEFEAT OF JIM POL.K WHEN HE RAN FOR THE SENATE?

A YEAH. YOU SA I D IIAII FACTOR .

A A FACTOR. DO YOU THINK THAT RACE WAS A FACTOR

IN THE DEFEAT.OF JIM RICHARDSON WHEN HE RAN FOR THE HOUSE

I N T9B2?

YEAH.

MS. WINNER: I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS.

EXAMINATION 3;37 'p.M.

BY .JUDGE DUPRET:

A I IM NOT SURE THAT I UNDERSTOOD YOUR ANSWER TO

A QUESTION RELATING TO THE RELATIVE CHANCE OF A BLACK CANDI-

DATE TO BE ELECTED TO THE STATE SENATE FROI4 THE MECKLENBURG-

CABARRUS DISTRICT AS PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED. LET ME PUT THE

QUESTION IN THIS WAY:

A

a

A

LET'S ASSUME THAT WE HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY

THERE ARE TWO CANDIDATES, ONE BLACK AND ONE WHITE.

THEM IS QUALIFIED TO REPRESENT THE DISTRICT IN THE

IN YOUR OPINION, DOES EITHER OF THOSE CANDIDATES/

THOSE FACTS ALONE, HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO BE ELECTE

OTHE R ?

YES.

IN h'HICH

EACH OF

SENATE.

JUST ON

THAI.I THE

U.lH I CH ONE ?

I THINK THE I.iHITE PERSON WOULD HAVE A BETTER

F P. O. eor 2tt3
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PPECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

CHANC E .

JUDGE DUPREE: THATTS WHAT T DIDNIT

UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSI,,ER TO THE OTHER QUESTION, BUT I THINK

THAT SETTLES IT.

JUDGE PI-II LL I PS : THANK YOU, MR. GREEN .

(W ITNESS EXCUSED. )

(WHEREUPON,

ARTHUR JOHN HOWARD CLEMENT, ITT,

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY S}IORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

FOLLOT^JS : )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 3:40 P.M.

BY MR. LEONIARD :

A VJOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS,

PLEASE ?

A I AM ARTHUR JOHN HOWARD CLEMENT, I I I. I 'M AT

2505 t^tEAVER STREET, I N DURHAM, NORTH CAROLI NA.

A A\D YOU ARE AN AMER]CAN WHO IS BLACK AND MALE?

A OBVIOUSLY.

a THATTS FOR THE RECORD. YOU PREPARED A qUBSlqU!

VITAE, RESUME, THATIS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS__MAY I APPROACH TH

t^/ITNESS--DEFEI.tDANTS' EXHIBIT NO. 38, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

(DEFENDANT EXHIBlT NO. 3B,WAS

MARKED. FOR IDENTIFICAT ION. )

F P. O. lor rllSl
LJ n heri. Nsrn ca?dt6t 27otr



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a PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THIS IS MY VITAE.

MR. LEONARD:

EXHIBIT NO. 38 IN EVIDENCE.

WE OFFER DEFENDANTS I

MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO OBJECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS MOVED IN WITHOUT

OBJ ECT I ON .

(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT NO. 38 I^/AS

RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.)

.. BY MR. LEONARD :

a I/HAT IS YOUR OCCUPATION?

A I 'M ASSIST,\NT VICE PRESIDENT VIITH NORTH CAROLINA

MUTUAL LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY.

a DESCR I BE FOR US I^IHAT NOR.TH CAROL i NA MUTUAL L I FE

I NSURANCE COMPANY I S.

A NORTH CAROLINA MUTUAL LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY IS

AN OLD LINE LEGAL RESERVE COMPANY TUVOUVTO IN THE INSUR.ING

OF LIVES. I^JE OFFER LIFE,. HEALTH, AND ANNUITY CONTRACTS ON

OUR POLICY HOLDERS. WE WERE FQUNDED IN 1899. WEILL BE B5

YEARS OLD ON OCTOBER 20, 1981.

A AND WHERE WERE YOU BORN?

A I VJAS BORN IN CLEVELAND, NORTH CAROLINA, WHICH

I S I N: ROVJAN COUNTY .

A AI\ID WHERE WERE YOU RAI SED?

A I WAS REARED IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROL II'JA.

a WHEN DID YOU COME BACK TO NORTH CAROLINIA?

a P. O. 8or 2llc:!
lJ A.bigh. xor$r c.olm ?Gil



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PFECISION AEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIEING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I CAME BACI( tO NORTH CAROLII.IA--ACTUALLY I

BEGAN WORKING IN MY PRESENT CAPACITY AT NORTH CAROLINA

MUTUAL ON MARCH !, 1961.

A AND ARE YOU POLITICALLY ACTIVE?

A YES, I AM.

A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF A POLITICAL PARTY?

A YES, I AM.

A WHICH PARTY IS THAT?

A I AM A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT.

a Now FoR THE BENEFIT OF THE COURT, V/OULD yOU .JUST

GIVE US BRIEFLY WHAT YOUR PAST POLITICAL ACTIVITY hAS BEEN--

i MEAN POLITICAL NOT JUST IN A PARTY SENSE, BUT IN A BROADER

MORE GENERAL SENSE.

A WELL, ACTUALLY, MY POLITICAL ACTIVITY BEGAN IN

19I+8 WHEIJ MY FATHER RAN FOR CONGRESS OUT OF THE FIRST.

CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN SOUTH CNNOI-TruN. I }JAS 14 YEARS

OLD AT THE TIME, AND I TRAVELED WITH MY FATHER THRO\JGHOUT

THE FIRST CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT DURING HIS CAMPAIGN FOR

CONGRESS AGAINST THE THEN L. MENDEL RIVERS. THAT WAS MY

INITIAL INTP.ODUCTION INTO THE POLITICAL PP.OCESS.

AND FROM 1948 UP UNTIL THE PRESENT, I IVE BEEN

INVOLVED iN SOME FORM OR FASH,ION. IN 1955, 56, I BECAME

A REGISTERED VOTER IN SOUTH CAtlOLINA. IN 1956 I BECAME

ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE ADLAI STEVENSON CAMPAIGN FOP.

PRESIDENT IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

- 
P. O. Bor 2llB

]J R.brcn. xdh c.@lm ,r!rr



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a PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 1

PITOENIX, ARIZONA

SUBSEQUENT THERETC) i WENT TO LAW SCHOOL AND

WAS GRADUATED FROM !-AI.J SCHOOL I N 196 O . I WAS ADMI TTED TO

THE BAR IN SOUTH CAROLINA. I PRACTICED LAI^I THERE UP UNTIL

MARCH OF 1961 WHEN I WAS I NVI TED TO t^/oRK FOR NORTH CAROL I NA

MUTUAL. ON MARCH 23, 1961 I ATTENDED MY FIRST MEETING OF

THE THEN DURHAM COMMITTEE ON NEGRO AFFAIRS. IT IS NOVJ KNOWN

AS THE DURHAM COMI'IITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE.

AND-THAT I,IAS I'1Y INTRODUCTION TO POLITICS iN NORTH CAROLINA-_

MARCH 23, 1961.

AND FROM THAT DATE UP UI.IT]L .THE PRESEI.IT I HAVE

BEEN INVOLVED INI SOME FORM OR FAS}lION iN TI-1E POLITICAL

PROCESS. iI\i 19/2--I.IO, BA.CK IN 1968, GOVERNOR SCOTT, THE

THEN GOVERNOR SCOTT APPOINTED I.'lE TO SERVE ON A STATEWIDE

COMMISSION TO LOOK AT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN AN EFFORT TO

MAKE THE PARTY MORE REPRESENTATIVE. SERVING AS CHAIRMAN OF

THAT COMMI SS ION, I S NOVJ, GOVERNIOR .JAMES HUNT. I MET THEN

ATTORNEY HUNT IN THE YOUNG DEMOCRATIC CLUB WHERE I BECAME

AN ACTIVE MEMBER. IN 1969 I BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE DURHAM

COUNTY YOUNG DEMOCRATS.

IN I972 I I,JAS IIIVITED BY THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC

PARTY TO BE A MEI4BER OF THIS NATIONAL RULES COMMITTEE I'IEETII'I

IM MIAMI BEACH, FLORIDA FOR THE DEI'lOCRATIC N,qTIONAL

CONVENTIoN. IT \^/AS AT THAT CONVENTIoN THAT I MET--AS A MEtlB

OF THE NAT IOt'.IAL P.ULES COI'1I1I TTEE THAT I BECA14E FP.I ENJDS I^'I TI.1

RUFUS EDMI STEN, NOVJ ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE STATE OF NOIiTH

fi P O. Bor 2l&
LI RrEoh Noan C..o[n. 27CI



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

CAROL I NA.

I N 19 /4 I WAS ELECTED CHA I RMAN OF THE DEI.IOCRAT I C

PARTY IN DURHAM COUNTY. IN 1977 THE --GOVERNOR HUNT APPOINT

ME TO SERVE THE UNEXPIRED TERM OF HENRY M. MICHAUX, WHO WAS

APPOINTED U. S. ATTORNEY FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT, NORTH

CAROLINA. I SERVED IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE FROM AUGUST OF

L977 UNTI L NOVEMBER OF 1978.

IN MAY OF 1983 I WAS APPOINTED AS A I4EMBER OF TH

DURHAM CITY COUNCIL WHERE I AM PRESEI'.ITLY AN AT LARGE MEMBER.

THAT IS A SUMMARY OF MY POLITICAL INVOLVET'1Ei.|T.

a IN. THE 1960 ' S, t^:ERE YOU ACTIVE pOLITICALLy

OUTSIDE OF THE ELECTIVE AND PARTY PROCESS?

A YES, VERY MUCH SO. IN 1968, AFTER--LETfS BACK

UP A 81T. IN 1963 I I.IEI'.IT TO THE MAP.CH ON h'ASHINGTON,

AUGUST 28, 1963, NEARLY 20 YEARS AGC AND r BECAME MORE SENSI

TIZED TO THE PROBLEMS OF THE EARLY '60'S AS IMPACTING UPON

BLACK AND POOR PEOPLE

I WENT'TO THE MARCH ON I{ASHINGTON IN AUGUST

OF 1963 AND MARTIN LUTHER KING MADE THAT I'I HAVE A DREAM''

SPEECH. AND HE I,VAS AS CLOSE TO I.1E AS THAT MAP WHEN HE

MADE THAT SPEECH. AND I WAS OFFICICALLY MOTIVATED TO COME

BACK TO DURHAM AND I BECAME MORE INVOLVED AS AN ACTIVIST

IN THE DURHAM COMMUNITY. THIS CULMINATED IN 1968 AND MY

ELECTIOI.,I AS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BLACK SOLIDARITY COMI',!ITTEE,

VJHICH INITIATED A BOYCOTT OF DOWNTOI^JN DURI.IAI'1 IN ANI EFFORT

F P. O. eor 2tl6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

i2E5
TO SOLICIT THE ST]I)PORT OF -THE 

CHAME]ER OF COMMERCE AND

MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION TO ADDP.ESS THE PROBLEMS WHICH IMPACTED

UPON BLACK PEOPLE, PARTlCULARLY IN THE AREA OF HOUSING,

EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION, RECREATiON.

I.ALSO WAS INVOLVED IN MARCHES, PICKETiNG, AND

OTHER ACTIVIST EPISODES REPRESENTING AT'THAT TIME WHAT I

THOUGHT IAS THE BEST WAY TO ADDRESS AND REMEDY THE PROBLEMS

WHICH EFFECTED THE BLACK AND POOR COMMUNITY IN DURHAM.

YOUR VIEWS CHANGED OVER THE YEARS WITH RESPECT

TO HOW TO REMEDY THE PROBLEMS OF BLACK PEOPLE IN DUR.HAM

COUNTY ?

I HAVE. I CAME TO THE REALIZATION THAT

coNFRONTATION, hTHILE IT MAy BE FUN, IT rS COOPERATION THAT

GETS THE JOB DONE. AND THAT PREMISE HAS TAKEN HOLD OF MY

PERSONALITY, AND I FIRMLY BELIEVE TODAY THAT THROUGH

COOPERATION WITH THE SYSTEM, PER SE, THAT T^/E CAN GET MORE

DONE THAN THROUGH CONFRON;ATION.

AND I 't4 MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE NOW, MUCH MORE AT

EASE, MUCH MORE AT PEACE WITH THE WORLD INI ATTEMPTING TO

NEGOTIATE THE RESOLUTIOI.]AL PROBLEMS THOUGH COOPERATION

RATHER THAN THROUGH CONFRONTATION. BUT YES, AT ONE TIME I

UJAS CALLED A MILITANT BLACK ACTIVIST. IT ViAS IN THE LATE

60 I S AND EARLY 7O'S.

DURING THE YEARS 1982 AND 198] DID YOU CONSIDER

THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

F P. O. Bor 2tl(t
lJ Rd./ch. Nonh crdrM 2r!tr



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PRECISION REPOHTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES, i DID.

A FOR DURHAM COUNTY?

A YES, I DID.

a AND D r D yOU STATE PUBL I CLy r^tHAT YOUR VI EWS

I^JERE ON THAT SUBLJECT?

A YES, I DID.

A WHEN AND WHERE DID YOU STATE THOSE?

A I WENT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY MEETII.IG HERE IN

RALEIGH AND SPOKE I^IITH SOME OF THE LEGiSLATORS AND SENATORS

EXPRESSING MY VIEVJS THAT I h'AS FIRMLY IN FAVOP. OF THE MULTI-

MEMBER SYSTEI4, THAT I TI.iINK AI{D AM CONVINCED THAT THE MULTI_

MEMBER SYSTEM]AS OPPOSED TO THE SINGLE MEMBER SYSTEM IS A

MUCH BETTEB, MORE APPfi0PRIATE, EFFECTIVE MECHANISM TO

ADDRESSING THE GRIEVANCES IN OUR COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY

THROUGH THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

a Nor^/ you TNDTCATED You HA; BEEN APPOTNTED TO

SEP.VE AS A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IN THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY. I^IHEN WERE YOU APPOINTED?

A AUGUST 
', 

tg77 .

A AND DID YOU SEEK RE:ELECTION?

A I DIDI SO.

A DID YOU SEEK RE_ELECTION II.I A MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICT?

A I DID SO.

A IN DURHAM COUNTY?

F P. O.8d xl(l
LJ R.btoh, Nonn a.Eltna ,0tr



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e PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

128?
A I DID SO."

A v,"HAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THAT ELECTION?

A I CAME iN FOURTH IN A FIELD OF SEVEN FOR THREE

S EATS .

A AND DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY SEEK RE-ELECTION AGAIN

FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

A I DID IN 7982?

A WHAT hIERE THE RESULTS OF THAT ELECTION?

A I CAME IN FOURTH--LAST, IN A FIELD OF FOUR FOR

ONE OF THE THREE SEATS FROM DURHAM COUI{TY.

a AND THAT , S I N THE PR I MARY ?

A I N THE PR IMARY.

a AND THE 1982 ELECTION rdAS HELD PURSUANT-:-OR IN

A DISTRICT AS IS REPRESENTED BY GINGLES EXHIBIT NO. 6(A),

IS THAT CORP.ECT?

.A THAT'S CORRECT,

a IN THE ELECTION iN 1gB2 h'HAT DID yOU PERCEIVE

TO HAVE BEEN THE SUPPORT YOU RECEIVED FROM THE WHITE

COMMUNITY Ii'I DURHAM?

A WELL, I REALLY HAVENIT ANALYZED THE FiGURES.

I RECE I VED 9, L2 6 VOTES . HOI^I MAI.JY OF THOSE VOTES I./ERE WH I TE

AND HOW MANY WERE NONWI{ITE, I IF1 REALLY NOT PREPARED TO SAY

AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

A !"/AS THERE A BLACK CANDIDATE NOMINATED IN THAT

ELECT I ON ?

F P. O.8ot 2tlB
lJ R.brgh. Nonh C.roltm 2?Ctl



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

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YES . YES THEP.E WAS.

Wt-lo h'AS THAT ?

IT WAS KENNETH SPAULDING.

AND I,JAS I.1R. SPAULDING ELECTED IN THE SUBSEQUENT

GENERAL ELECTION?

A

RECEIVED IN

YES, HE WAS.

DID YOU MAKE ANY STUDY

THE BLACK COMMUNITY BY

NO, I HAVENIT. ALL I

AS TO THE VOTES

MR. SPAULDING?

HE RECEIVED MANY

AT ALL

YOU AND

KNOW I S

MORE VOTES THAN I DID.

THAT VJAS OBVIOUS FROM THE R.ESULT?

EXACTLY.

NOW YOU ' VE HEARD THE I SSUE DEBATED I./ I TH RESPECT

TO SINGLE AND MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS PRIOR TO THIS LAI\,,SUIT,

AND YOUIVE BEEN HERE IN THE COURTROOM AND HEARD SOME OF THE

TEST IMONY HERE. t'1R. CLEMENT, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO

I{HETHER OR NOT THE DISTRICT THATIS OUTLINED ON GINGLES

EXHIBIT 6(B) (STC) AS OPPOSED TO THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTIN

OF DURHAM COUNTY IdOULD PROVIDE THE BLACK PEOPLE OF DURHAM AN

OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEiR CHOICE?

AM I TO ASSUME THAT THAT BORDER IN RED IS--ARE

THOSE SINGLE MEMBER?

A YES. THE BORDER IN RED IS ONE SINGLE MEMBER

DISTRICT SO THAT THE AREA INSIDE OF THE RED BOUNDARY I/JOUI-D T]I:

A SINGLE I'IEMBER DISTRICT. AND I 'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU ADDRESS MY

F P. O. lor 2tlG]
u Rrbrqh. ilod Ctroitm 270fi



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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L2B9
QUESTION IRRESPECTIVE OF UiHETHER THE BAL,ANCE OF

I'ioULD ELECT TI^ro MEr'1BERS AT LARGE oR I^/HETHER IT

MEMBER DISTRICTS.

THE COUNTY

BE S I NGLE

A IF h/E CAN ELECT ONE BLACK FROM A MULTI-MEMBER

D I STR I CT, I FEEL REASO}.IABLY CERTA IT.J THAT WE CA}.I ELECT A ELACK

FROM A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT, USING THAT CONFIGURATIOI,I. NOW

ITTHETHER oR Nor--oF CouRSE, yoU KNorr/, .rou sAID "oF OuR cHoICE.

THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS NOT A MONOLITHIC COMI.IUNITY. THE BLACK

COMMUN I TY HAS SEVERAL CHO I CES . NoW I^JHETHER oR NoT THE PERSON

ELECTED WOULD CONFCP.I'I TO ALL OF THE CHOICES AVAI LABLE, THAT

IS QUESTIONABLE.

a

I NTEREST OF

THE I SSUE OF

A

I THiNK THAT

INTEREST OF

WHAT I S YOUR OPINIOI.I AS TO !^/HAT I S IN THE BEST

THE BLACK PEOPLE OF DURHAM COUNTY WITH RESPECT TO

S I I.IGE VERSUS MULT I -MEI.,IBER D I STR I CTS ?

IN My OpINIOr.t, UNQUESTIONABLY I'M IN FAVOR OF--

THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRIC; WOULD BE IN THE BEST

THE BLACK COM|1UNiTy, IN My OpINION.

T{OULD YOU TELL THE .COURT GENERALLY WHY YOU ARE

OF THAT OPINION?

I AM OF fHAT OPIf.IIO|'J SII4PLY BECAUSE I THINK THROUG

THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT APPROACH/ THE BLACK COI4MUNITY AS

I'JELL AS OTHER COMMUNITIES SITUATED WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THA

JURISDICTION WILL HAVE GREATER INFLUENCE ON THE LEGISLATIVE

DELEGATION, MORE EFFECTIVELY AND MORE DIRECTLY RATHER THAN

T HROUGH THE S I IJGLE MEMBER APPROACH.

F.t P. O. 8or 2618:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 t

PHOENIX ARIZONA

I THIt.tK IN THE QUESTION__tNFLUENCE, VIS_A_VIS

NUMBERS,' I'D i?ATI.lER HAVE INFLUENCE GOING FOR ME. BECAUSE I

THINK IIJFLUENCE TELLS TIIE STORY-_HOW MUCH IMPACT I CAN BRING

ON MY LEGISLATORS. AND THAT'S MORE MEANINGFUL TO ME THAN

NUMBERS.

IN YOUR CPINIOI.I, IF DUR.HAM COUNTY l,JERE TO BE

CONFIGURED AS IS SHOI^JN ON GiNGLES EXHI BIT 6(B), I,/I TH THE ONE

SINGLE MEI.,IBER DISTRICT AND THE OTHER TWO EITHER SINGLE OR AT

LARGE IN THE COUNTY, '/./OULD THE BLACK PEOPLE OF DURHAM COUNTY

HAVE ANY SIGNIFiCANT INIFLUENCE ON THE T'/O LEGISLATORS OUTSIDE

CF TIIE SINGLE MEI',1BER DISTRICT?

A OLJR INFLUENCE \^/OULD BE REDUCED T\^/O-THIRDS. WE

WONIT HAVE ANIY INFLUE|\ICE ON THE OTHER TVJO HOUSE MEMBERS USING

THE SINGLE MEMBER APPROACH.

a Do you HAVE AN Oplt'ltoN AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE

BLACK COMMUNITY AND THE BLACK PEOPLE OO DIJP.HAM COUIITY NOW HAV

A SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE ON THE THREE LEGISLATORS ELECTED TO

THE HOUSE FROM DURHAM COUNTY?

YES/ WE DO.

ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE ON THE

AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE?

SOMETIMES.

A YOU ARE A MEMBER?

A TIJE FACT THAT I AM A PERSON OF COLOR-_I',lR. WHEELE

TOLD ME 22 YEARS AGO TI1AT THE ONLY CREDENTIAL FOR BEII'IG A25

a P. O.8ot 2ar&
LJ R.dsh. Nonh cucin. 27itt



I.4EI'/8EP. OF TH I S ORGAI'il zAr I ot.t AT THE T I ME I^lAS THAr yOU

COULDN ' T GET I NTO THE JACK TAR HOTEL . I'JELL, AT THAT T IME

I COULD NOT GO INTO THE JACK TAR t-lOTEL, uJHILE I CAN GO IN IT

ToDAY . 0F CoURSE TH I S HAS S I NCE BEEN BLowN Dol,JN, BUT--BUT

HAD IT REMAINED OPEN TODAY, AND IF I HAD THE MONEY--AND I HAV

THE MONEY--I COULD GET REGISTERED IN THAT HOTEL. BUT IN 1961

I COULD NOT GET INTO THAT HOTEL BECAUSE OF MY COLOR.

CONSEQUENTLY I WAS AUTOI4ATICALLY A MEMBER OF THE DURHAM

COT4M I TTEE .

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COI'1I'1ITTEE

E LECT I ON

A oH, YES.

A TELL THE COURT

THOSE DISAGREEMENTS OVER.

DID YOU RECEIVE THE ENDORSEi\1EI.JT OF THE DURHAM

ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE Wt-iEt\i j'OU RAN FOR

AFTER APPO INTI'1ENT I N I97 E?

HALF-HEARTEDLY, YES.

DID YOU RECEIVE THEIR ENDORSEMENT IN LgB2?

NO.

a HAD You HAD DISAGREEi4ENis wITH THE coMt4rrrEE oN

MA.JOR POLITICAL ISSUES?

SOME OF THE ISSUES YOUIVE HAD

A I.JELL, IN 1977 , WHEN I WAS A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL

ASSEMBLY, I WAS THE ONLY BLACK LEGISLATOR TO SUPPORT

UNEQUIVOCALLY THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE COMPETENCY TESTIT{G

PROGRAM. I I^/AS SEVERELY CR IT I C I ZED BY THE LEADERSH IP OF THE

DURHAI.4 COM,I".ITTEE FOR TAKING THAT POSITION, AND FOR BEING I'HE

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b, PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.361'9 876.457 |

PHOENIX ARIZONAF P. O. 8or ilrdt
lJ Frbreh. Nffh cryolrm aTort



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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

Ff P. O. Bq a.ICS
lJ F.l.tgh. ttdh Ctrolil ,70il

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOEI.IIX, ARIZONA

ONLY BLACK IN THE LEGIS--IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO SUPPOR\

THE COI4PETENCY TESTING PROGRAM. THAT WAS INC IDENT NUMBEP. ON

II.J i978 I WAS INVOLVED IN THE RECALL OF ONE OF

OUR CITY COUNCILMEN WHO HAD NOT PAID HIS TAXES. THE CITY

COUNCILMAN IS THE LEADER OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE, AND HE WAS

A MEMBER OF THE CITY COUNCIL AT THE TIME. AND I FELT THAT TH

coMl4I TTEE ' s Posf,uRE sHcuLD HAVE' BEEN FoR I NTEGR I Ty Il.t

GOVERNMENT. WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FOREFRONT IN THE

REMOVAL OF ANY AND'ALL COUNCILMEN WHO DiD NOT FULFILL HIS

OR HER OBLIGATIONS AS A CITIZEN. THE DURHAM COMMITTEE TOOK

ISSUE WITH MY POSITION iN THE RECALL MOVEMENT OF ONE OF ITS

LEADERS, I^/HO hIAS AT THE TIME A CITY COUNCILI4AN, AND IT

RANKLED THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DURFIAM COMMITTEE. IT STILL

DOES, THAT I TOOK A POSITION ACTiVELY TO REMOVE THAT COUNCIL

MAN FROM THE CITY COUNCIL BECAUSE HE HAD NOT PAID HIS TAXES.

rN tg79 r wAS.INVOLVED IN THE L,IQUOR By THE DRrN

CAMPAIGN. I WAS OPPOSED TO LIQUOR BY THE DRINK, AND I STILL

AM OPPOSED TO LIQUOR BY THE DRI{IK. THE COMMITTEE TOOK THE

OPPOSITE POSITION. THEY ARE IN FAVOR OF LIQUOR BY THE DRINK.

I DON I T KNOW l,{HY, BUT THEY ARE. BUT I OPPOSED LIQUOR BY THE

DRINK.

IN i981 I I,(AS ELECTED SECOND VICE CHAIRMAN OF TH

COUI{TY DEMOCRATIC PARTY. THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DURHAM

COMMITTEE I,/AS OPPOSED TO MY BEING INVOLVED t,JITH THE DEI"IOCRATI

PARTY II.I i981. I FELT THAT I I1AD A PRIVILEGE TO BE INVOLVED

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O, PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

WITH THE POLI.IICAL PROCESS, AND I WAS ASKED TO SERVE AS

SECONID VICE CHAIRI4AN, AND I SERVED AS SECOND VICE CHAIP.MAN.

THE LEADERS}1IP OF IHE DURHAM COMMITTEE OPPOSED THAT EFFORT.

THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE TOOK A

srAND tIITH RESPECT To GovEp.NoR HUNT ' s GooD ROADS pR.oGp.AM.

I SUPPOP.TED GOVERNOR HUNTIS GOOD ROADS PROGRAM. THAT RANKLE

SOME OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DURHAM COI.4MITTEE. AND OF COUR

I^/HEN I T COMES DOWN TO THE CURRENT I SSUE, S I NGLE MEMBER VERSU

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS, THE DURHAM COMMITTEE, AS I CAN PERCE

lT , i s suPPoRT IVE OF S INGLE ME|/BER DI STR I CTS, AND I At1

SUPPORTIVE OF I'1ULTI-MEI',lBER DISTRICTS. SO Ti]IS WILL NIOT

STAND ME IN GOOD STEAD ,//ITH THE COMMITTEE.

IN 1982 I SUPPORTED THE ELECTIOl'J OF TIM VALENT]N

AS--TO coi.lcREsS. I MAKE No APoLoGIES FoR suppoRTING TIM

VALENTINE. THE COMMITTEE SUPPORTED MR. MICHAUX. I IVE KNOWN

TIM VALENTINE FOR 15 YEARS, AND ItVE HAD NO REASON TO DISTRU

I^/E ' VE HAD A VALUABLE AND EFFECT I VE FR I ENDSH I P OVEP. ]'HE YEARS

I DID NOT TRUST THE BLACK CANDIDATE, SO I HAD NO REASON TO

SUPPORT HIM. THAT RANKLED THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DURHAM

COI,IMITTEE.

IN 198] I WAS APPOINTED TO THE DURHAM CITY

COUNCIL OVEP. THE ADAMANT OPPOSITION OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE.

THAT HAS NOT STOOD ME IN GOOD STEAD WITH THE DUR,HAM COMMITTE

SO YOU CAN SEE THAT I CARRY--TI..IESE ARE FACTS THAT I IM NOT

NECESSARILY TRUMPETING ABOUT. BUT ITIS A FACT THAT i'VE TAKE

F P. O. grr 2alEll
l,J R.breh. Noffi c.dh. 2rol



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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

POS I T I ol''lS I NDEPENDEN', or rHE DURHAM coMM I T'rEE, AND oF couR

I THINK THAT'S I.lY PRIVILEGE.

a ON YOUR CAMPAIGNS OF THE PAST IN tgll At'tD t982,

DID YOU CAMPAIGN IN THE I{HITE COMMUNITIES IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A I.CAMPAIGNED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY.

A DID YOU CAMPAIGN I^IITH WHITE CANDIDATES IN BOTH

THE WH i TE AI.ID THE BLACK COMMUN I T I ES ?

A I DID SO.

A DID YOU CAMPAIGN WITH REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING?

A I DID SO.

A DID YOU EVER EXPERIENCE ANY RACIAL ANIMOSITY,

RACIAL SLURS, OR CRITICISI,IS IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY OF YOUR

CANDIDACY?

A NOT OPENLY, NO.

A DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY INDICATION FROM ANY OF YOU

CAMPA I GN }/ORKERS THAT THER E WERE CNC I EI- I NNUENDOS BE I NG

LODGED OR STATED ABOUT YOU OR AGAINST YOU?

A WELL, THERE WERE INNUENDOS, NOT NECESSARILY

RACIAL, THAT I^/ERE BEING PASSED ABOUT ME, BUT THEY WEREN IT

RAC IAL.

a NoT RACIAL?

A NO.

A DID YOU RECEIVE FINANCIAL SUPPORT FROM THE IVHITE

COMI4UN I TY OF DURHAI4 COUNTY ?

A OH, YES.

F P. O 8d zttG!
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DID YOtJ HAVE I./HITES ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING II.I

YOUR CAMPAIGN?

VERY MUCH SO.

a Do you KNotJ ANy poLtcy oF THE DURHAM COUNTY DEMO

CRATIC PARTY WHICH IMPEDES BLACK PEOPLE FROM PARTICIPATING

IN THE PROCESS IN THAT COUNTY?

NO, I DONTT.

WHATIS THE MAKEUP OF THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?

THE CHAIRMAN--THE-CHAIRPERSON OF THE EXECUTIVE

COMMITTEE IS MRS. LUCAS. SHEIS A BLACK I{OI,IAI"J. THE--MOST

oF THE OTHER OFFICES--MANY OF THE OFFICES--iN FACT, THERETS

A GOOD I'4IX iN THE CL}RREI\IT DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BLACK, WHITE,

wotlEN, YOUNG PEOPLE, IN THE CUp.RENT LEADERSHIp HIERARCHY

OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

a Do You KNow oF ANY REASON \^/HY BLACKS ARE NOT

ABLE TO ELECT THE CAI.IDIDA.TES OF THEIR CHOICE FOR THE GENERAL

ASSEMBY IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A t^iELL, lF I l''lAY, SIP,, IF THE DURHAM COMI'IITTEE HAD

GIVEN ME ITS ENDORSEI4ENT, THEORETICALLY I THINK I COULD HAV

BEEN IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE TODAY,'AND DURHAM COUNTY WOULD

HAVE HAD TWO BLACKS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE FROI.I DURHAM

COUNTY. BUT THE DURHAI'I COMMITTEE DID NOT SEE FIT TO GIVE ME

ITS ENDORSEMENT. CONSEOUENTLY I I^IAS DENIED A SIGNIFICANT

PORTION OF THE BLACK VOTE. CONSEQUENTLY, I LOST.

I TH INK, TO A LARGE PART, hlE ARE OUR OliN hTORST

PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. gor 2ata

LJ Rrbtsh. xonh crrd'[ 216rr



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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ENEMIES WHEN IT COMES TO THE POLITICAL PROCESS. AND THERE

IS MUCH THAT WE HAVE TO DO WITHIN OUR OWN COMMUNITY TO HELP

RESOLVE SOME OF THE--AND ADDRESS SOME OF THE PROBLEI'IS THAT

AFFLICT US IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

DID YOU, DUP.ING YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE TIME YOU

LIVED IN SOUTH CAROLINA, HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO FORM..A

.JUDGMENT WiTH RESPECT TO THE SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS?

YES, I DID.

WHAT ARE THOSE?

THE SAME-_SOUT;I, CAROLINA UNDERI.{ENT THE SAME KIND

OF LITIGATION IVHICH WE ARE PRESENITLY EXPERIENCING IN NORTH

CAROLINA, WHERE AT ONE TIME SOUTH CAROLINA HAD ONE BLACK

STATE LEGISLATOR. AFTER A SUIT OF THIS SORT I^IAS INSTITUTED

AGAINST THE GOVERNOR AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, OTHER ELECTI

OFFICIALS, THE COURT MOVED TO HAVE SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS

IMPLEMENTED IN SOUTH CAROLINA, WHEREUPON, THE REPRESENTATION

OF BLACKS MOVED FROM ONE TO T3;

WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EVALUATE WHAT HAS TAKEN

PLACE WITH THAT INCREASE FP.OM ONE TO 13, AND THE NET EFFECT

HAS BEEN ZERO. THE 13 BLACKS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN

SOUTH CAROLINA HAVE BEEN SO BALKENIZED, SO GHETTOIZED, THAT

THEY CANNOT GET ANYTHING ACCOI'lPLISHED. THIS IS DOCUMENTED

FACT.

AND THEIR LEGISLATURE IS JUST ABOUT THE SAI1E

A

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P. O. Bor 2ttm

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SIZE AS NORTH CAR.OLINA'S LEGISLATURE. THEY HAVE

THE NUMBERS; THEY HAVE LOST INFLUENCE THROUGH THE

ATION OF THE SINGLE MEMBER CONCEPT. AS I'VE SAID

NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING WITHOUT INFLUENCE. AND IF I

MR. CLEMENT, TO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

MUTUAL LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY. I,JHAT IS THE

OR THE RACIAL BACKGROUND OF THAT..COI'1PANY?

I NCR EAS ED

I MPLEMENT -

EARL I ER,

HAD MY

DRUTHERS, IID RATHER HAVE THE INFLUENCE.

THE MULTI_MEMBER CONCEPT, IN MY OPINION,

MAXIMIZES THE POSSIBlLITY OF INFLUENCE, WHILE IT MAY

DIMINISH NUMBERS. BUT I THINK IN THE POLITICAL GAME WE ARE

CONCERNED WITH INFLUENCE.

a Do you HAVE AN oPINION AS TO VJHETHER OR NOT THE

FAI LURE OF THE GENERAL ASSEiVIBLY TO CREATE A HEAVI LY BLACK

IIOUSE DISTRICT IN DUR.HAM HI\D THE EFFECT OF DISCRIMINATING

AGA I NST THE BLACK PEOPLE I I.I DURHAM COUNTY ?

N0.

a You Do oR You Do NoT HAVE AN OPINION?

A I DON'T THINK THAT THE--I THINK THAT THE STATE

LEGISLATURE ACTED CORRECILY IN NOT DIVIDING DURHAM UP INTO

SINGLE MEI$BER DISTRICTS.

I THINK I FAILED TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUN I TY,

NORTH CAROLINA

RACIAL MAKEUP,

A WELL, WE'RE A COMPANY IN EXCESS OF $ZOO MILLION

Ir'J ASSETS, 57 BILLION IN INSURANCE IN FOtiCE, 1,365 EtipLOyEES,

OPERATE II.] 17 STATES AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. WE'LL

T PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX ARIZONAF P. O. 60r ala
LJ R.br:n, kh C..ortu ?7att



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BE B5 YEARS OLD ON OCTOBER 20, 1gB3. I 'VE BEEN EMpLOyED

I,.1ITH THIS COMPAI.JY IN MY PRESENT CAPACITY SINCE 1961. MY

FAMILY HAS BEEN CONNECTED WITH THIS COMPANY SINCE SEPTEMBER

oF 1906.

WE HAVE

IT IS THE

a

A

a

I N DURHAM?

A

a

COMMUN I TY

INDIVIDUALLY.

A DO THE BLACK PEOPLE OF DURHAM COUNTY-_THIS MAY

SEEM TERRIBLY REDUNDANT--HAVE ANY DIFFICLUTIES RECISTERING

OR VOTING IN ELECTIONS IN THE COUNTY?

A NONE TO MY K|\IOWLEDGE. NONE TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

APATHY AND LACK OF CONCERN HAVE BEEN OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

THATTS.THE PROBLEI'IS THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS AS A COMMUNITY.

MR. LEONARD: THAT I S ALL. THANK YOU.

CROSS-EXAMJNATION 4:12 P.M.

BY MS. WINNER:

MP. . CLEMENT, I S YOUR FAMI LY FAI RLY WELL KNOh/N

MY FATHER, MY GRANDFATHER, MY UNCLE--TOGETHER

I^IORKED APPROXIMATELY 200 YEARS l^/ITH THI S INSTITUTION

LARGEST BLACK FINANCIAL INSTITUTION IN THE I^/ORLD.

COLLECT I VELY YOU I VE hIORKED 2OO YEARS ?

YES, COLLECTIVELY. SOMETIMES WE FEEL LIKE IT IS

I DONIT KNOW.

YOUR FAMILY HAVE BEEN LEADERS IN THE DURHAM

FOP. A NUMBER OF YEARS ?

F P. O- Bor [lB
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832-9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WELL, I HAVE--MY AUN T AND UNCLE HAVE TJEEN

RESIDENTS OF DURHAM SINCE 1945. MY AUNT IS PRESENTLY

CHAIRMAN OF THE SCHOOL BOARD. MY UNCLE IS VICE PRESIDENT

OF THE RALEIGH-DURHAM AIRPORT AUTHORITY.

A SO YOU WOULD SAY YOUR FAMI LY NAME I S FAIRLY I^IELL

KNOWN IN DURHAM?

A THATIS FOR YOU TO SAY.

A MY QUESTION IS IN YOUR OPINION, IS YOUR FAMILY

NAME FAIRLY WELL KNOWN IN DURHAM?

A t"iELL, I TJCULD THIl.lK SO. I DOI.I I T I{ANT TO SOUND

TOO IMMODEST.

a AND DO yOU THINK THAT yOU HAVI THE ABILITY TO

APPEAL TO WHITE VOTERS?

A OH, YES.

A YOU ARE RELATIVELY WELL_EDUCATED, IS THAT CORREC

A r r DEPENDS ON r^tHAT YOU prial.r, RE LAT I VELY .

a RELATIVE rO MANV BLACK PEOPLE.

A WELL, I rVE BEEN TO HIGH SCHOOL, COLLEGE, AND

LAW SCHOOL.

A DO YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE AN ABILITY TO APPEAL

TO WH I TE VOTERS H I GHER THAI.J I'lCST BLACK PEOPLE I,]HO ARE I NVOLV

IN POLITICS IN DURHAM COUNTY?

A I DONIT KNOI,I.

MS . Vt I t"!t.!EIl : I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER

QUES'r rONS.

F P, O, Bor 2rrB
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\a PRECISION REPORTING

AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

I4R. CLEMENT

(wlrnrss EXCUSTo. )

MR. LEONARD: I F

DO HAVE ONE OUTSTANDING ISSUE, AND THAT

GUESS WEILL TAKE IT UP INI THE MORNING.

ADAMS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH,

THE COURT PLEASE, WE

HAS TO DO WITH--I

REPRESENTAT IVE AL

(WHER EUPON,

.J. ALLEN ADAMS,

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS,, DULY SWORN, AND TEST I FI ED AS

FOLLOWS: )

DIRECT EXAMINATION 4:15 P.

MR. LEONARD: I F I COULD JUST SAY TO THE COURT

THAT REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS AND DR. HOFFLER ARE THE LAST TI^/O

WITNESSES THAT THE DEFENSE T^/I LL CAUI-. T WOULD HOPE THAT I F

COUNSEL IS GOING TO HAVE ANY REBUTTAL WITNESSES THAT SHE

TRY AND GIVE US THAT INFOP.I'IATION TONIGHT. SHE KNOWS WHERE

IIM AT, SO ADVISE US SO THAT WE CAN DO A LITTLE PREPARATION

FOR ANY REBUTTAL I{iTNESSES.

THEY ARE, I

MS . I^J I NNER : AS SOON A5 I KNOW I,IHO

I D BE HAPPY TO LET MR. LEONAP-D AND THE COURT KNOW

BY I,tR. LEONARD:

WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAI'1E AIID ADDRESS, PLEASE?

J . ALLEN ADAMS , 224 I^JOODBURN ROAD, RALE I GH, NORT

a

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CAROLIIJA.

A HOW LONG HAS YOUR FAMTLY BEEN ACTIVE II'J POLITICS

IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A WELL, MY GRANDFATHER WAS ELECTED SUPERIOR COURT

JUDGE I N 18 96 , SO I T.JOULD SAY, AT LEAST I KNOW THAT FAR BACK

JUDGE DUPREE:

WI TNESS :

BY MR. . LEONARD:

I^/HAT PARTY ?

REPUBL I CAN.

A AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS A

CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR .ON THE REPUBLICAN TiCKET IN 1900,

WAS HE NOT?

A HE WAS A CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR ON THE P.EPUBLICA

TICKET ON THE PLATFORM OF NEGRO SUFFRAGE.

a ARE YOU CURRENTLY A MEI'1BER OF TtlE GENERAL

AS S EMBLY ?

A I AM.

A AND IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES?

A YES.

a AND FROM WHAT COUNTY?

A WAKE COUNTY.

A WHAT DISTRICT IS THAT?

A ITIS I^JAKE COUNTY. IT USED TO BE THE FIFTEENTH,

LETIS SEE--ThiENTY-FIRST DISTRICT.

A HOI^/ MANIY MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE ARE THERF FROM

THAT DISTRICT ?

A P, O. gor 2atdl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A SIX MEMBERS.

A AND HOW ARE THEY ELECTED?

A THEY ARE ELECTED AT LARGE.

A HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE SENATE ARE FROM THAT

DISTRICT?

A THERE ARE THREE, BUT THE SENATE DISTRICT IS

NOI1, MADE UP OF HARNETT, LEE, AND MOST oF WAKE. So wE

ACTUALLY HAVE A FOURTH SENATOR REPRESENTING WAKE COUNTY, BUT

HE REPRESENTS THE FIVE NORTHERN PRECINCTS OF THE COUNTY

TOGETHER i4ITH FRANKLIN COUNTY AND SOME OTHERS.

A HOId LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ?

A THiS IS MY FIFTH TERM.

A TELL THE COUP.T VERY BRIEFLY 14HAT YOUR EDUCATIONA

BACKGROUND I S .

A I WEI.JT TO THE UN I VERS I TY-_UNDERGRADUATE AND LAI,J

scHooL-:-THE uNIVERSITY oF.NoRTH cARorr*o o, cHApEL HILL,

JUDGE BR I TT . AND, t^tELL, THAT I S My EDUCAT I ON.

A YOU WERE BORN AND RAISED IN WAKE COUNTY?

A NO, I WAS BORN IN GREENSBORO AND I WAS RAISED IN

NORFOLK, VIRGII.tIA.

a !{HEN DID YoU COME TO WAKE COUNTY?

A rN 1959.

A HAVE YOU BEEN ACTIVE IN POLITICS IN THIS COUNTY

YOURSELF?

A YES.l
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b, PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a AND BR I EFLY TELL THE COURT 
'TJHAT 

THAT UACKGROUN

IS.

A hIELL, I HINK I STARTED IN THE YOUNG DEMOCRATS,

AND I WAS THE PRECINCT ORGANIZER FOR VJAKE COUNTY IN 1960 FOR

TERRY SANFORD- AND .JOHN KENNEDY. I I^/AS PRESIDENT OF THE

YOUNIG DEI4OCRATS IN WAKE COUI.JTY IN 1964.

I WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE WAKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PAR

FROM 1968 UNTIL 1972. I WAS ALSO ACTIVE IN SOME STATEWIDE

MATTERS, TOO.

A PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU SOUGHT ELECTION

YOURSELF, I.JERE YOU ACTIVE II.I OTHER CAMPAIGNS IN THE COUNTY?

A YES.

a TJHAT WERE SOl"lE OF THOSE?

A WELL, YOU WOULD START bIITH TERRY SANFORD'S

CAMPAIGN FOR GoVERNOR IN 1960, AND THEN JOHN hTINTER'S

CAMPAIGN FOR THE CITY COUNCIL IN TSii; BUCK RANSDELL'S

cAMPAIGN FOR SOLICITOR IN 1g62, RICHARDSON pREyOR'S CAMPAIGN

FOR GOVERNOR.

A LET ME INTERRUPT,AMD JUST ASK, UP UNTIL THE TIME

YOU RAN YOUP.SELF, WERE YOU ACTIVE IN CAMPAIGNS THROUGHOUT--

A IT SEEMED LIKE I GOT INVOLVED IN MOST ALL THE

CAMPAIGNS, YES, SIR.

a WHEN I,JAS YOUR--EXCUSE ME. DO you HAVE ANy

EXPERIEI.lCE \^IITH RESPECT TO THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT AND ITS

APPLICATIONS TO I,IAKE COUNTY?

A P. O. 8or 2tl6:l
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S,

t PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

YES.

WHAT IS THAT EXPERIENCE?

WELL, IN 1965, WHEN THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT CAME

INTO EXISTENCE, THEY DID A NEW CENSUS AND THEY WEI.IT OUT TO

STATE COLLEGE, CENTRAL PRISON, AND DOROTHEA DIX HOSPITAL, AN

COUNTED ALL THOSE PEOPLE AS RESiDENTS, AND SOMEHOVJ FIGURED

THAT WAKE COUNTY HAD VOTED LESS THAN 50 PERCENT IN THE

PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION OF i96t+. THAT CARRIED t/ITH IT A

PRESUMPTION OF VOTER DISCRIMII.JATION, WHICH }/E VERY MUCH

RESENTED, HAVING JUST COMPLETED AN EXTENSIVE BLACK REGISTRA_

TION DRIVE IN WHICH WE IIAD DOUBLED THE BLACK REGISTRATION IN

THI S COUNTY.

SO HAVING TAKEN OFFENSE AT THAT PRESUMPTION-_NOT

AT THE EFFECT OF IT, BECAUSE WE HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE EFFECT

OF IT WOULD BE. I THINK IT HAD SOMETHING AT THAT TIME TO DO

WITH THE LITERACY TEST, WHICH \^IAS NOT A FACTOR IN THIS COUNT

WE WENT TO V]ASHINGTON NNO ANOUEI-IT AN ACTION IN A THREE-.JUDGE

FEDERAL COURT IN T.JASHINGTON ANQ PROVED TO THE GOVERNMENT AND

THE .JUST ICE DEPARTMENT THAT THERE HAD BEEN NO RAC IAL

DISCRIMINATION V/HATSOEVER IN WAKE COUNTY FOR THE LAST 15 Y

I THINK, BEFORE 1965. AND THE JIJSTICE DEPARTMENT, CIVI L

RIGHTS DIVISION, CONSEI.ITED TC I\I.J ORDER EXEMPTING WAKE COUNTY

FROM THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT. SO THATIS BEEN MY EXPER I EI.ICE .

PROCESS THAT'S USEDa IS THERE A FO['.|4AL SLATING

BY THE DEMOCRAT I C PARTY I N VJAKE COUNTY ?

F P. O.8or 2tlal
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b PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A NO.

a Do you KNot^/ IF THERE EVER t4AS SUCH A PROCESS?

A I IVE NEVER BEEN FAMILIAR h'ITH SUCH A PROCESS.

AS I UNDERSTAND A SLATII.IG PROCESS, NO.

A I S- THERE AI'I INFORMAL SLAT ING PROCESS?

A THERE IS A--PEOPLE SORT OF GET TOGETHER AND SAY

WHO I,JOULD BE GOOD CANDIDATES TO RUN, AND WE TAKE AN INTEREST

I}'I HAVING A GOOD TICKET. THEREIS NOTHING FORMAL ABOUT IT,

AND THEREIS NOTHING BINDING ABOUT IT.

A DO BLACKS HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INFORMAL PROCESS?

A UNOUEST I ONABLY . THEY HAVE ALVJAYS S I NCE I ' VE

BEEN IN WAKE COUNTY, HAVE BEEN AN 
,II.ITEGRAL 

PART OF SELECT ING

CANDIDATES.

A DO BLACKS HAVE ACCESS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN

THE COUNTY?

A I^JELL, I T t S NOT A QUEST ION OF BLACKS HAV I I.IG ACCESS

TO IT; THE BLACKS ARE A PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. THEY

HAVE WORKED VERY HAP.D SO THAT WE DO NOT HAVE RACIAL CONSIDER

AT IONS. I^/E HAVE A DEI.4OCRAT I C PARTY OF WHI CH EVERYBODY I S

FREE AND AN II.ITEGRAL PART OF IT.

A AND TO I,'HAT EXTENT HAVE BLACKS HELD OFF I CES I N

THE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WAKE COUNTY?

A WELL, STARTING IN--I GUESS THE FIRST TIME WAS IN

1962. I THII.IK .JOHN I'/INTERS WAS ELECTED THE SECOND VICE

CHAI RMAN, OR SOMETHING. AND FROM THENI ON, THERE I S ALVJAYS

A P. O. Bor 2616
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONAF P. O. Box 2tldi
lJ F.blch. Nod Ct'olhr 27Gil

BEEN BLACKS AS OFFICERS IN THE PARTY. IN THE PRECINCTS,

THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OF THE PARTY IS MADE UP OF THE

PRECINCT CHAIRMEN. SO OBVIOUSLY THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF

BLACKS THAT ARE MEMBERS OF THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, BOTH

AS CHAIRMEN OF BLACK PREC INCTS AND oF WHITE PRECII.ICTS--FROM

PP.EDON I I1ANTLY h,H I TE PREC I NCTS .

ALSO, THE PROCESS IN THE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE.

COMMITTEE IS A I.IEIGHTED VOTE. BLACKS, HAVING VOTED_-IT 'S

WEIGHTED ON THE NUMBER OF DEMOCRATIC VOTES FOR GOVERNOR IN

THE LAST GUBERNATORIAL ELECTiON. AND SO THE BLACKS HAVE A_-

ACTUALLY LARGER SHARE'THAN THEIR POPULATION IN THE DECISIOII

MAKING OF THE I,/AKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY

q IVHAT ABOUT THE FORMAL ELECTION BOARD PROCESS

ITSELF? 'WHAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH P.ESPECT TO BLACKS'

PARTICIPATION IN THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?

WELL, I CAN REMEMBER IN i96O t,JE STARTED A

REGISTRATION DRIVE CALLED A VOTE-MOBILE DRIVE. AND THAT U'AS

DONE IN CONJUNCTION I^lITH THE JAYCEES AND THE LEAGUE oF

WOMEN VOTERS. AND THE VOTE ON THE ELECTION BOAP.D WAS TWO

To ol'iE. l"E Gor .JOHN DUNCAN's vorE, AND oNE DEMOCRAT. AND

ONE DEMOCP.AT VOTED AGAINST IT. BUT ANYWAY,, h/E DID THAT, AND

FROM THEN ON WE HAVE--IN THE--THROUGH THE ELECTIONS PROCESS_-

BOARD PROCESS, MADE EVERY EFFORT TO MAKE REGISTRATION AND

VOT ING AVAI LABLE TO ALL THE C I T I ZENS.

AT THAT T II.,!E I^/E HAD SPEC IAL EMPHAS I S ON BLACK



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25I PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

1Qnry-rdU,
REGISTRATION BECAUSE THEY h'ERE UNDERREGISTERED.

A YOU MENTIONED THE PRECINCT LEVEL. ARE YOU

FAMILIAR WITH BLACKS HOLDING PRECINCT OFFICES IN THE COUNTY?

A YES.

A CAN YOU TELL THE COURT HOW LOI.IG A HISTORY THAT

HAS ?

A WELL, IT'S BEEN EVER SINCE I'VE BEEN IN WAKE

COUNTY. THERE WERE A NUMBER OF BLACK PRECINCT CHAIRI,IEN

AND VICE CHAIRMEN. LET ME, IF I MAY, MR. LEONARD--I DIGRESS

A LITTLE BIT OI'I THE ELECTION PROCESS. THE !{AKE COUNTY BOARD

OF ELECTIONS HAS HAD A BLACK I.IEMBER S II'JCE 1968 OR ' 69. .J. .J.

SANSON WAS APPO II.ITED BY ME. AND I THINK THERE HAS BEEN

CONT.INUOUSLY SINCE THEN A BLACK I'IEMBER ON THE WAKE COUNTY

BOARD OF ELECTIONS. THE CURRENT CHAIRMAN OF THE WAKE COUNTY

BOARD OF ELECT IONS I S ROSA GUI LD, I^JHO I S BLACK.

A }JHAT IS YOUREXPERIENCE I^IITH RESPECT TO RACIALLY

POLAR IZED VOT I NG I N I/AKE COUNTY ?

A WELL },/E HAVE I^IORKED VERY HARD TO NOT HAVE

RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN WAKE COUNTY, AND I THINK WE'VE

BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, PERHAPS MORESO THAT ANY PLACE IN THE

COUNTRY THAT I KNOW OF.

A CAN YOU GIVE THE COURT ANY EXAMPLE OF NON-POLAR-

IZATION OF VOTING?

A t^/ELL, THE WHOLE ASSUMPT I ON--V/ELL , I VJON I T GET

I NTO THE LAI,I. BUT I T SEEMS TO BE THE ASSUI4PT I ON OF THESE

F P. O.8or 2618
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5 PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

L3t)8
S I NGLE MEMBER D I STR I CTS THAT BLACKS W I LL ONLY VOTE FOR

BLACKS, AI.ID THEY IVE GOT TO HAVE A MAJORITY OF BLACKS TO

GET ELECTED. IN WAKE COUNTY, WEIVE HAD BLACKS ELECTED AT

LARGE WITH LESS THAN 20 PERCENT CONSISTENTLY OF THE VOTING

POPULATION BEING BLACKS, AND APPROXIMATELY 20 PERCENT OF OUR

POPULATION BEING BLACKS.

hIE ELECTED ,JOHN I{INTERS AT LARGE TO THE CITY

COUNCIL IN 1961; WE ELECTED CLARENCE LIGHTNER MAYOR OF THE

CITY OF RALEIGH, WHEN THE REGISTRATION OF THIS CITY WAS ONLY

17 PERCENT BLACK. WE HAVE ELECTED .JOHN WINTERS TO THE STATE

SENATE, ALSO TO THE CITY COUNCIL.

THERE HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY A BLACK ON THE CITY

COUNCIL ELECTED AT LARGE. ELIZABETH COFIELD HAS BEEN

ELECTED AT LARGE THROUGH THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS SINCE

i968 OR SO. THIS HAS BEEN iN A COUNTY WHERE YOU DONIT HAVE

BUT TB OR 15 PERCENT REGIST.ERED AI-ACTS. SO OBVIOUSLY THE

BUSINESS OF HAVING TO HAVE A CERTAIN PROPORTION OF BLACKS

IN THE POPULATION IN A CERTAIN DISTRICT TO ELECT BLACKS, AS

FAR AS WAKE COUNTY IS CONCERNED, IS COMPLETELY OPPOSITE TO

THE EXPERIENCE WE'VE HAD SINCE IIVE BEEN HERE.

DO YOU RECALL AN ELECTION IN 1972 WHEN CARLTON

FP.ANKS AND A. J. TURNER, TWO BLACKS RAN FOR ELECTION?

CARLTON FELLERS. I KNOW JUDGE DUPREE RECALLS.

IT VJAS CARLTON FELLERS AND A. J. TURNER WERE NOMINATED BY

THE REPUBLICANS TO RUN FOR THE HOUSE. AND 50 THERE WEP.E

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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457"
PHOENIX, ARIZCNA

S IX REPUBL ICANS RUNNING AND SIX DEMOCRATS. THEY I.IERE TWO

OF THE REPUBL I CANS .

A I,JHAT YEAR WAS THAT?

A 1974.

A HAVE BLACKS BEEN ABLE TO RUI'J I N AT LARGE D I STR I C

IN WAKE COUNTY AND RALEIGH?

A HAVE THEY BEEN ABLE TO RUN?

a YES.

A YES, THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RUN. IN THAT

PARTICULAR ELECTION, SPEA.KII.JG OF ELECTING VOTERS_-REPRESENIT-

ATIVES OF THEIR CHOICE, hJHICH IS BEING TALKED ABOUT, IN THAT

PARTICULAR ELECTION, THE BLACKS PRECINCTS VOTED FOR ME

ALMOST THREE TO ONE OVER THE BLACK CANDIDATES. SO EVIDENTLY

I WAS THE CANDIDATE OF THElR CHOICE AND THEY ELECTED ME.

AND THE BLACKS IN WAKE COUNTY HAVE CONSISTENILY ELECTED ALL

THE CANDIDATES WITH VERY TEW EXECPTIONS THAT THEY HAVE

ENDORSED. AND THAT'S BEEN OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.

A JUST BRIEFLY, DOES THE SAME EXPERIENCE HOLD TRUE

FOR COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS AND THE SCHOOL BOARDS IN

I,JAKE COUNTY?

A IT HAS BEEN NOT TRUE OF THE SCHOOL BOARD BECAUSE

THE SCHOOL BOARD, BECAUSE OF PECULIAR MATTERS THAT VERNON

I.4ALONE TESTIFIED TO, IS IN A DISTRICT CoNFIGURATIOI\I. IT

HAS BEEN TRUE FOR THE COUNTY COMM I SS I ONERS ANI) REFORE I T I,IAC

A DISTRICT CONFIGURATIoN, VERNOI\I MALONE I.IAS ELECTED TO THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SCHOOL BOARD AT LARGE.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT'S RECESS TIME, AND

BEFoRE WE RECESS FOR THE DAY, LET ME SAY THAT ToMoRRol',,

SINCE WE ARE HOPING TO CONCLUDE TOMORROVI, WE RESERVE THE

PRIVILEGE OF ANNOUNCING A SHORTENED LUNCH HOUR. WE,MAY GO

TO AN HOUR. SO IF ANYONE IS PLANNING A LONG BANQUET TOMORRO

I WOULD SUGGEST YOU PUT IT ON HOLD. t,JE WILL RECESS NOI^'

UNTIL 9:OO TOMORROW MORNING.

(THE PROCEED I NG WAS ADJOUP.NED AT 4 : 3 O P. M. ,

TO RECONVENE AT 9:00 A.M. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3,

1983. )

E t. O. 3or 6lt!
L, fbhaoh, lrodn C.,o{o. 27ctr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CERIIFICAI'E

I , JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CEP-Ti FY THAT THE

PRECEDING ?.22 PAGES REPRESENT A TP.UE AND

ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD

ON TUESDAY, AUGUST 2,

NORTH CAROLINA.

THIS, THE ]OTH DAY OF

1983, AT RALEIGH,

AUGUST, 1983.

OFFICIAL REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

B. BUSH, CVR

F P. O. Bq 2t163
lJ tublch. No^h C.ioto arlrr