Trial Transcript Volume 5 (Redacted)
Public Court Documents
July 29, 1983
174 pages
Cite this item
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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 5 (Redacted), 1983. 683a42a4-d5f1-ee11-904c-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/3a598017-ed2c-451c-aa4f-383e3c4fa90f/trial-transcript-volume-5-redacted. Accessed July 16, 2025.
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IN T.HE UNI TED STATES
FOR THE EASTERN DIST'RICT
DISTRICT
OF NORTH
SION
COURT
CAROL I NA
RALEIGH DIVI
RALPH GINGLES, ET AL.,
RUFUS EDMI STEN, ETC.,
ET AL. ,
V.
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81-201-crv-5
81-1066-crv-s
.JAMES B. HUNT, JR. , ETC. ,
ET AL.,
JOHN J. CAVANAGH, ET AL.
V. 82-545-C rV-5
ALEX K. BROCK, ETC.,
ET AL.,
DEFENDANTS.
TRIAL BEFORE
THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON
THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T.
THE HONORABLE W. EARL
PHILLIPS
DUPREE, JR.
BRITT
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI.IOENIX, ARIZONAa P. O. Bor 2ttas
LJ R.b,eD, Nonh Ct'oain. 27!tt
AT RALEIGH: FRIDAY, JULY 29,1gBl
VOLUME 5 OF B
PAGES 822 THROUGH 9y5
823
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O, lor r6lct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
APPEARANCES
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
LESLIE J. WINNER, ESQUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, I.JALLAS, ADKINS I FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
951 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
cHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202
ARTHUR TJ. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER 6 KENERLY
]09 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144
ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQUIRE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402
LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUITE 2O1O
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
JERRIS LEONARD, ESQUIRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREET, N.W.
wASHINGTON, D.C. 20006
JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RITLEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602
F P. O.8d 2tlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
tJ r-,-TABLE OF CONTENTS
W I TNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECJ RECROSS EXAM
FRANK W. BALIANCE , .JR.
BY M5. GUINIER 828-U55
BY MFI. LEONARD 855-86]
BY LJUDGE PHILLIPS
BY .JUDGE BR I TT
BY JL'DGE DUPREE
OPENING STATEMENT
BY MR. LEONARD
.JOI-IN L. SANDERS
PAGEs 877 -A86
BY MR. LEONARD U9O-91' g22
BY MS. WINNER
e24
9 t3 -e22 e25
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS
BY JUDGE BRITT
LESLIE BEVACQUA
BY MS. HEENAN e2S-919 - 9 SL- g52
BY MS. GUINI=R qr9-951
tnt_lrIp u: Er_lis
BY MR. LEONARD 952-95 U
BY MS. WINNER 95u_960
MARK LAN I ER
BY MR. LEONARD y60-96+ 968-969
BY MS. WINNER
_ g6+_gbg 97u
870-B/1
861-868
868-869
869-B7u
922-923
923-324
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7)' (
OkLTABLE OF CONTENTS(CONTINUED)
WITNESSES DIRECT
.JEAN MOORE HARRELL
BY MR. LEONARD 972-97'
BY MS. WINNER
PATSY WHALEY
CROSS RED I RECT RECROSS EXAM
973
BY MR. LEONARD
BY M5. WINNER
e75-98' 990-9e 1
984-98e
EXHIBITS
NUMBE R DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE I VED
PLAINTIFF
55
75 (A)
84
E6
DE FENDANT
872
672
872
B7b
T7
1B
19
37
tt8
52
I.,I I NOR I TY APPTS . AND EMPLOYMENT 929
UO}4PUTLR PRINIOUI. 9]u
APPOINIEES TO tsOARDS 930
93e
919
93e
u91
Y6r+
y07
CURRI CULUM VI TAE, - SANDts,RS u91
961
e05
ARI ICLE IN IN5IGHT
MEMO TO ATTURNEY GENERAL
PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFIC€, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAE P. O.8ox 2ttat
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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S g:t)O A.M.
THIS CAUSE CAME ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL BEFORE
THE HONORABLE J. D I CK.SON PHI LL I PS ON FR I DAY,
.IULY 29 , 1983, AT RALE I GH, NORTH CAROL I NA.
LJUDGE PHILLIPS: GOOD MORNING. BEFORE WE
BEGIN TO RECEIVE EVIDENCE THIS MORNING, I WANT TO ADDRESS
AN INQUIRY TO COUNSEL CONCERNING THE EXHIBITS THAT WERE
INTRODUCED BY THE PUGH PLAINTIFFS YESTERDAY AFTERNOON IN
CONNECTION WITH DR. ARRINGTON'S TESTIMONY. THOSE EXHIBITS
WERE--LETIS SEE--BY NUMBER---
THE CLERK: ( INTERPOSING) NUMATB 2,
AND 6 THROUGH 20.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: PUETI PLAINTIFFS 6 THROUGH
20. THEY WTRE THE SUMMARIES AND TABLES PREPARED BY DR.
ARRINGTON AND USED BY HIM IN CONNECTION WITH HIS TESTIMONY.
CRITICAL TO THOSE TABLES AND TO HIS TESTIMONY IS THE
EXISTENCE OF THE SO.CALLED DISTRICT 88, THE HAGY DISTRICT.
MY INQUIRY IS WHERE IN THE RECORD, IF ANYWHERE,
IS THERE AN OUTLINE OF THAT DISTRICT, OR IS THERE SUCH?
MR. HUNTER: I N THE LEG I SLAT I VE RE-
DISTRICTING--THESE HUGE VOLUMES THAT WE HAVE. THE HAGY PLAN
I^/AS INTRODUCED BY A MAP AI.ID THEN IN THE APRIL SESSION IT WA
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,\AAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAn P. O. Eor 28la}5
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I I\TRODUCED---
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) IS IT IN TH
RECORD? I S IT IN EVIDENCE?
MR. HUNTER: YES, SIR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THAT IS ALL I I,JANTED TO
KNOW.
JUDGE BRITT:
LEG I SLATI VE RECORD?
THAT IS IN THE STIPULATED
MR. HUNTER:
MS. GUINIER:
YES, SI R.
THE PLAINTIFFS CALL FRANK
BALLANCE.
( WHEREUPON,
FRANK WINSTON BALLANCE, JR.
WAS CALLED AS A WI TNESS, DULY SI^JORN, AND TESTI FI ED AS
FOLLOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I N O
'
I O N 9:05 A.M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A h/OULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL THE LAST
NAME, PLEASE?
A FRANK t^/ I NSTON BALLANCE, .JR. , B-A-L-L-A-N-C-E.
a WHERE DO YOU RESIDE?
A tN WARRENTON, NORTH CAROLINA.
A CCULD YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR
EDUCAT I ONAL BACKGROUND?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZOhIA
YES. I GREW UP IN BERTIE COUNTY, ATTENDED
HIGH SCHOOL AND WENT TO COLLEGE AT NORTH CAROLIN/T CENTRAL
UNIVERSITY AS IT IS KNOWN NOW FOR UNDERGRADUATE. AND AFTER
THREE YEARS I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL AT NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL
UNIVERSITY ALSO, GRADUATED IN 1965 FROM LAW SCHOOL WITH A
.J . D. DEGREE.
AFTER MY FIRST YEAR AT LAW SCHOOL I RECEIVED A
B.A. DEGREE IN MY UNDERGRADUATE MAJOR WhIICH WAS POLITICAL
SCIENCE.
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN PRACTICING LAW SINCE YOU
RECEIVED YOUR LAW DEGREE?
A THE FIRST YEAR I WORKED AS A LIBRARIAN AT NORTH
CAROLIIlA STATE COLLEGE OF LAW AND CARRIED SOME BOOKS FOR
MATTHEW PERRY. AT THE END OF THAT ONE YEAR, 1996, I MOVED
BACK TO WARRENTON AND WENT INTO A PARTNERSHIP WITH T. T.
CLAYTON. AND WE PRACTICED TOGETHER FOR ABOUT IO YEARS.
WE DISOLVED OUR PARTNERSHIP IN Ig7g, AND I HAVE BEEN IN
PRIVATE PRACTICE SINCE THAT TIT4E IN WARRENTON.
COULD YOU TELL ME THE EXTENT IN TERMS OF THE
C,EOGRAPHICAL AREA THAT YOUR PRACTICE COVERS?
WELL, I GUESS I AM TRULY A RURAL LAWYER. I
PRACTICE IN EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA, AND I HAVE TAKEN CASES
FROM DARE COUNTY ALL THE WAY UP. PR I MAR I LY I PRACT I CE I I.I
HALIFAX, WARREN AND NORTHAMPTON; SOME IN BERTIE, VANCE.
BUT I DO EXTENSIVE TRAVELING IN MY PRACTICE IN EASTERN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PFIOENIX, ARIZONA
NORTH CAROLINA.
A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN POLITICS?
A YES; i HAVE.
a coulD You DESCRIBE WHAI'YOUR PRESENT POSITION IS.
A I AM PRESENTLY A R.EPRESENTATIVE FROM THE 7TH
HOUSE DISTRICT TO THE NORTH CI\ROLINA GENERAL ASSEMBLY,
HAVING BEEN ELECTED IN L982, I GUESS.
A WHAT IS THE COMPOSITION OF YOUR HOUSE DISTRICT
IN TERMS OF ITS RACIAL POPULATION?
A MY DISTRICT, AS WAS CREATED IN 1981, HAS A 65
PERCENT BLACK POPULATION, AND A ].8 PERCENT INDIAN POPULA-
TION. THE BALANCE IS WHITE.
A COULD YOU TELL ME WHETHER YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED
IN ANY OTHER POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS?
A YES; I HAVE. THE FIRST TIME I RAN FOR POLITICAL
oFFIC.E trAS IN 1968, I F I RECALL COnnrCrlv. I WAS THEN A
RESIDENT OF BERTIE COUNTY, ALTHOUGH I WAS PRACTICING LAW IN
WARREN COUNTY. AND I RAN FOR DISTRICT COURT JUDGE IN WHAT
IS NOW THE 6TH .JUDICIAL DISTRICT, COMPRISING BERTIE, HERT.
FORD, NORTHAMPTON AND HALIFAX COUNTIES.
iT SO HAPPENED FOR WHATEVER REASON--THE VIET
NAM WAR WAS A LITTLE HOT AT THE TIME, AND I HAD APPLIED TO
BECOME A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL GUARD AT WARRENTON. IT WAS
THEN NOT INTEGRATED AS I VIEWED IT. THERE WERE NO BLACK
MEMBERS. I WAS ACCEPTED ABOUT THE TIME THAT I BECAME A
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P. O. Bd 2ttCl
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CANDIDATE, AND I GOT SENT TO MISSOURI. BUT I RAN IN THAT
JUDICIAL RACE IN ABSt-NTIA, I GUESS. I DIDNIT GET ELECTED.
BERTIE COUNTY DECIDED TO BUY SOME VOTING MACHINES THAT YEAR
FOR THE FIRST TIME, AND I WAS UNSUCCESSFUL IN THAT RACE. I
HAVE SINCE RUN TWICE FOR COUNTY COMMISSIONER IN WARREN
COUNTY. I DID NOT WIN EITHER TIME.
A HIiVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN THE CAMPAIGNS OF ANY
OTHER PEOPLE?
A YES; I HAVE.
a wHo WERE THOSE OTHER PEOPLE?
WELL, DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN MY LAW PARTNER, T.T.
CLAYTON. HE RAN FOR THE STATE HOUSE TWO OR THREE TIMES.
AND I I^JAS I NVOLVED--FLOYD MCKI SS I CK RAN IN WARREN COUNTY.
I WAS INVOLVED IN MOST OF THE CAMPAIGNS THAT HAVE BEEN RUN
IN THE LAST EIGI-IT OR TEN YEARS IN BLACKS RUNNING FOR OFFICE
I HAVE ALSO BEEN, I eUrSS, a PARTICIPANT OR
OBSERVER IN SEVERAL OTHER CAMPAIGNS OUTSIDE OF WARREN
COUNTY, BERTIE COUNTY, HALIFAX, PEOPLE WHO I KNEW THAT WERE
RUNNING FOR OFFICE.
A hJHAT POLITI CAL ORGANTZAT IONS ARE YOU A MEMBER OF
A I AM A MEMBER--VICE.PRESIDENT OF THE WARREN
COUNTY POLITICAL ACTION COUNCIL. I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE
SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT BLACK CAUCUS.
A WHAT IS THE WARREN COUNTY POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE?
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THE WARREN COUNTY POLITICAL ACTION COUNCIL IS
AN ORGANIZATION WHICH INVOLVES ITSELF IN THE POLITICAL
ASPECTS Of' WARREN COUNTY IN TERMS OF VOTER REGISTRATION,
SUPPORTING CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE, INVOLVING ISSUES OF
POLITICAL AND NON-POLITICAL AFFECTING THE WARREN COUNTY
COMMiSSION.
IT IS AN UNORGANIZED.-UNINCORPORATED IS WHAT
I MEAI.IT TO SAY..ORGAN I ZAT I ON-- I NFORMAL ORGAN I ZAT I ON.
A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF ITS MEMBERSHIP
A AS FAR AS I KNOW, IT IS ALL BLACK. THERE MAY
BE SOME INDIANS WHO ARE MEMBERS.
A NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE SECOND DISTRICT CAUCUS
OF THE NORTH CAROLINA BLACK LEADERSHIP CAUCUS. WHAT IS
THAT ?
A THE SECOND DISTRICT BLACK CAUCUS IS A LOOSE
ORGANIZATION OF THE VARIOUS COUNTIE; THAT COMPRISE THE
SECOND CONGRESSIONAL OISTNTCT. WE COME TOGETHER AGAIN
AROUND ISSUES THAT AFFECT THE COMMUNITY. WE INVOLVE OUR-
SELVES IN COORDINATION OF EFFORTS ON THE LOCAL AND DISTRICT
LEVEL AS WELL THE STATE LEVEL IN THE SENSE THAT THE SECOND
DISTRICT LEADERSHIP CAUCUS IS A STATEWIDE ORGANIZATION AND
COMPOSED OF THE ORGANITAT IONS IN EACH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRIC
AND THEN THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICI'ORGANIZATIONS ARE
COMPOSED OF THE COUNTY LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS.
SO AGAIN, THE ORGANIZATION INVOLVES ITSELF IN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
POLITICAL ISSUES AFFECTING THE SECOND DISTRICT IN THE
COUNTY.
ARE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY ORGANIZATIONS IN THE
FIRST DISTRICT?
YES. BEING FROM BERTIE COUNTY, MY MOTHER IS
STILL THERE AND OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED
IN THE FIRST CONGRESSIONAL DISTP.ICT OF BLACK CAUCUS FOR
QUITE SOME TIME. I GO TO THE ANNUAL BANQUETS AND OFTTIMES
I ATTEND MEETINGS WHICH THEY MAY HAVE AT VARIOUS TIMES
THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.
FIRST
UP-.MY
I SORT OF KEEP UP WITH WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT BY ViRTUE OF MY HAVING GROWN
GROWING UP IN BERTIE COUNTY.
YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU ARE ELECTED FROM A
MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT. IS THAT A SINGLE HOUSE SEAT OR
MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICT?
THAT IS A SINGLE HOUSE DISTRICT SEAT.
WAS THAT A SINGLE HOUSE DISTRICT SEAT IN 19BO?
NO; IT WAS NOT. I BELIEVE WE WERE PART OF THE--
WHAT IS KNOWN AS THE 22ND DISTRICT. I DONIT RECALL WHAT
NUMBER IT WAS AT THAT TIME. BUT IT IS THE SAME DISTRICT
THAT PRIMARILY NOW IS COMPRISED OF THE 22ND HOUSE DISTRICT,
VANCE, WARREN, PEFISON, GRANVILLE.
a DID YOI.J EVER CONSIDER RUNNING FOR THE 22ND HOUSE
DISTRICI WHEN WARREN COUNTY WAS PART OF IT?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457r
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I CONSIDERED IT, BUT NOT SERIOUSLY.
A WHY IS IHAT?
A I COULDNIT GET ELECTED.
A WHY IS THAT?
A WELL, THE HISTORY IS THAT IN THE MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS IT IS DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TO BE ELECTED, PARTI-
CULARLY IN THE DISTRICT THAT I RESIDE IN. I KNOW MR.
C LAYTON RAN AT LEAST THREE T I MES. THE D I STR I CT I,JAS ABOUT
4O PERCENT BLACK, AS I RECALL. HE NEVER GOT ELECTED.
FLOYD MCKISSICK, JR. RA.N ONE TIME, MAYBE TWICE.
HE DID NOT GET ELECTED. AND OTHERS HAVE RUN FOR THE SAME
SEAT--FOR A SEAT IN THAT DISTRICT. AND THE HISTORY IS
THAT THOSE CANDIDATES HAVE RECEIVED TREMENDOUS SUPPORT FROM
THE BLACK COMMUNITIES IN THE DISTRICT IN THE VARIOUS
COUNTIES, BUT THEY RECEIVED VERY LITTLE SUPPORT FROM THE
WHITE COMMUNITIES IN THOSE DISTRICiS. AS A RESULT, THEY
WERE NOT ABLE TO 8E ELECTED.
I THEREFORE CONCLUDED THAT IT WOULD NOT BE
PROFITABLE OR WISE FOR ME TO RUN FOR THAT OFFICE BECAUSE I
WOULD BE WASTING MY TIME AND EFFORTS IN TERMS OF NOT BEING
ABLE TO GET ELECTED.
A WHEN YOU DID DECIDE TO RUN FROM THE SINGI.F
HOUSE DISTRICT, WHAT WAS THE EFFECT OF YOUR CAMPAIGN ON
THE ORGANIZATION AND PARTICIPATION OF BLACKS IN THAT AREA?
A WELL, WHEN_I DETERMiNED THE COMPOSITION OF THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SEVENTH HOUSE DISTRICT AND I TALKED TO MANY OF MY FRIENDS
IN RALEIGH AND HALIFAX COUNTY AND EDGECOME COUNTY AND
MARTIN COUNTY AEOUT THAT RACE.-THE POSSIBILITY OF RUNNING
FOR THAT SEAT--I RECEIVED OVERWHELI4ING RESPONSES OF SUPPORT
FROM THOSE PEOPLE PRIMARILY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
AND THE REASON WAS THAT I,'/E SAW AN OPPORTUNITY FO
SOMEONE TO BE ELECTED. AND WHEN I SAY SOMEONE, A BLACK TO
BE ELECTED IN THAT DISTRICT. AND SO, THERE WAS, I WOULD
SAY, GREAT ENTHUSIASM FOR ME TO RUN OR FOR SOMEONE TO RUN.
IT SO HAPPENED--I GUESS THE REASON I RAN.-I KNEW A LOT OF
PEOPLE IN WARREN, HALIFAX AND MARTIN COUNTIES. AND THERE
WERE SOME OTHER FOLK WHO WERE INTERESTED.
BUT IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, MY CANDIDACY WAS THE
ONE THAT CAME TO THE TOP.
a WHAT DID YOU DO IN ORDER TO BRING OUT THE
SUPPORTERS OR THE VOTERS THAT YOU TNOUEUT WOULD SUPPORT
YOUR CANDIDACY ?
A WELL, ONCE THE DECLSION WAS MADE TO RUN, FIRST
OF ALL WHAT I DID.-WI1AT I THINK MOST POLITICIANS I^/OULD DO--
AND THAT IS TO FIND OUT WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT YOU HAVE
EECAUSE AS I SAID THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE BLACK
COMMUN I TY WHO I'JERE I NTERESTED. AND I MADE SURE THAT THERE
WERE ENOUGH FOLK OUT THERE WHO WOULD SUPPORT ME IF I RAN.
AND ONCE I DECIDED TO RUN, THEN I WENT AHEAD AND
CAMPAIGNED--ORGANIZED A CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE IN THE DISTRICT
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ON THE COUNTY LEVEL IN EACH COUNTY, AND EVEN ON PRECINCT
LEVELS WHERE I COULD. AND I WENT ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF
TELLING PEOPLE THAT FIRST OF ALL I COULD BE ELECTED;
SECONDLY, THAT I SHOULD BE ELECTED BECAUSE THEY NEEDED SOME
ONE IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WI1O WOULD REPRESENT THEM. OF
COURSE, THEY TOLD ME THE SAME THING. SO I^JE WERE I N AGREE-
MENT ON THAT LEVEL.
a
DRIVES?
WTlRE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY VOTER REGI STRATION
YEAH. WE HAD VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVES.WHEN I
sAy
l'*ar " I N HAL I FAX COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE
ORGAN I ZAT I ONS I BELONG TO I^JAS THE HAL I FAX COUNTY BLACK
CAUCUS, WHICH IS A LOCAL ORGANIZATION IN HALIFAX. AND THAT
ORGANIZATION DOES SORT OF WHAT THE WARREN COUNTY POLITICAL
ACTION COUNCIL DOES.-THAT IS, INVOLVES ITSELF IN ISSUES
CONCERNING THE BLACK COMMUNITY, AND ENGAGES IN VOTER
REGISTRATION. SO THAT OneeNIZATION PRIMARILY, ALONG WITH
THE HALIFAX COALITION FOR PROGRESS, ANOTHER ORGANIZATION
THAT I BELONG TO, WAS INVOLVED IN THE VOTER REGISTRATION
I N HAL I F/,X COUNTY.
IN WARREN COUNTY THE POLITICAL ACTION COUNCIL
LED A DRIVE. AND I DONTT RECALL THAT THERE WAS A SPECIFIC
DRIVE IN MARTIN. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE THAT I WAS NOT
INVOLVED IN AND NOT AWARE OF. MY DISTRICT HAS THREE
PREC I NCTS I N MART IN COUNTY. BUT I WENT ABOUT THI S FROM
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DOOR TO DOOR, WORKING IN THE VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE
IN HALIFAX AND WARREN COUNTY. AND I THINK THE DRIVES WERE-
OF COURSE, THE WAY WE WOULD DO IT, WE WOULD HAVE MAYBE A
MEETING AT ONE OF THE CHURCHES. AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
GOING TO PARTICIPATE WOULD COME OUT AND WE WOULD TALK ABOUT
ONE OF THE PRIMARY ISSUES, OF COURSE, IS TO CONVINCE PEOPLE
THAT YOU HAVE A CANDIDATE WHO CAN BE ELECTED.
I THINK THAT IS PRIMARILY iMPORTANT BECAUSE
BLACKS HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SO MANY CAMPAIGNS AND HAVE
GONE DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN A POSITION--
A I'IA.JORITY--TO BE ELECTED. THEY COULD NOT GET ELECTED
BECAUSE THEY D I D NOT RECE I VE SUPPORT FROM THE I^JH I TE
COMMUNITY. SO IT IS IMPORTANT EVEN IN REGISTRATION TO TELL
PEOPLE THAT THIS IS A CANDIDATE THAT CAN BE ELECTED SO
THERE IS MORE INTEREST AND MORE ENTHUSIASM AND MORE WILLING
NESS TO WORK BECAUSE WE CAN'T PAY PiOPUE TO DO VOTER
REGISTRATION. IT IS VOLUNTARY.
A HOW DID YOU FINANCE,YOUR CAMPAIGN?
A AGAIN, I CALLED ON MY FRIENDS AND THEY WROTE
SMALL CHECKS. ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WE DID IN ADDITIOI!
TO JUST CONTRIBUTIONS FROM FRIENDS AND ASSOCIATES AND PEOPL
I^/HO WANTED TO SEE ME GET ELECTED, WE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA
OF HAVING A BABY CONTEST. AND THE IDEA, i THINK, WAS TO
ALLOW PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT EVEN WRITE A CHECK FOR $TO.OO
TO BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE FINANCIALLY. BY BUYING A 5i.OO
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
VOTE FOR A
EVENT UAL LY
$1,ooo IN
a
COMMUN I TY ?
BABY WITH THE IDEA THAT
GO TO THE CAMPAIGN. I
THAT KIND OF EFFORT.
WHERE DID YOU CAMPAIGN
A CONTRIBUTION WOULD
THINK WE RAISED ABOUT
IN TERMS OF THE WHITE
A WELL, BECAUSE OF I.JHAT I SAID EARLI ER ABOUT THE
FACT THAT IN GENERAL I KNEW AND WE KNEW THAT CANDIDATES
WERE NOT GOING TO GET TREMENDOUS SUPPORT OF THE WHITE
COMMUNITY, I DID NOT SPEND VERY M(jCH TIME CAMPAIGNING IN
THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
IN FACT, IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY MY CAMPAIGN
PRIM/TRILY I^/AS IN THE BUSINESS DISTRICT. I FELT THIS WAY
THAT NUMBER ONE, I COULD BE ELECTED WHETHER I GOT WHITE
VOTES OR NOT. I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD GET SOME. MANY
CANDIDATES DO. MOST CANDIDATES DO. BUT I WANTED TO BE
A REPRESENTATIVE FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE AS I HAVE TRIED TO
BE SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN RALEIGH.
AND SO I DID GO INTO THE BUSINESS DISTRICTS IN
wE LDON--F I RST OF ALL, I N WARRENTON. I JUST I,,IALKED DOWN
MAIN STREET AND TALKED WITH THE MERCHANTS. I DID THE SAME
THING IN WELDON AND THE SAME THING IN SCOTLAND NECK AND
THE SAME THING IN ENFIELD. I WENT TO THE SHOPPING CENTER
IN ROANOKE RAPIDS. AND EVEN THOUGH ROANOKE RAPIDS IS NOT
IN MY DISTRICT, THERE WERE SOME MAJOR SHOPPING CENTERS FOR
THE AREA
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SO THAT WAS BASICALLY MY CAMPAIGN IN THE WHITE
COMMUNITY BECAUSE I FELT THAT GOING INTO THE RESIDENTIAL
AREAS WOULD NOT BE FEASIBLE. IT WAS NOT TRADITIONAL, AND
I DID NOT DO IT. I DID CAMPAIGN IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY
AND OF COURSE II.I THE BLACK CHURCHES.
DI.D YOU CAMPAIGN AT ANY WHITE CI-IURCHES?
NO.
WERE YOU INVITED TO ANY PREDOMINANTLY WHITE
CIVIC CLUBS?
A NONE. I WAS A BIT SURPRISED. I AM FAIRLY WELL
KNOWN IN I{ARRENTON, AND I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR--SINCE 1966.
IT IS A SMALL TOWN. I KNOW MANY OF THE PEOPLE, BUT I DID
NIOT GET INVITED TO A SINGLE WHAT I WOULD CALL A CIVIC CLUB
IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE ELECTORATE IN COUNTIES
OTHER THAN WHERE YOU-.COUNTIES
"O'
O*' NOT IN YOUR PARTI-
CULAR HOUSE DISTRICT?
A
a
A
YES.
WHAT COUNTIES ARE THOSE?
WELL, VANCE COUNTY, WHICH IS NEXT DOOR PRACTI-
CALLY. BUT COMiNG BACK IN THI S DI RECTION--I SAY ''THI S
DI RECTIONII--GOING EAST, I GUESS, I AM FAMI LIAR WITH THE
ELECTORATE IN HALIFAX, NORTHAMPTON, HERTFORD, BERTIE, GATES,
PERQUIMANS AND PASQUOTANK. AND I AM GENERALLY FT.MI LIAR
WITH THE OTHER AREAS:
_MARTIN
COUNTY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a
PEOPLE IN
WOULD YgU DESCRIBE THE PERCENTAGE OF BLA.CK
THOSE COUNTIES THAT YOU MENTIONED?
IN HALIFAX COUNTY, THE OVERALL POPULATION IS
SLIGHTLY LESS THAN 5O PERCENT BLACK. THE VOTING AGE
POPULATION, you WOULD THEN DROP ANOTHER FIVE OR SO PERCENT.
I N NORTHAMPTON COUNTY, THE POPULAT I OI\I I S ABOUT 6 5 PERC ENT
BLACK; IN BERTIE COUNTY, IT IS 59 PERCENT BLACK. IN
HERTFORD COUNTY, IT IS 5O PLUS.-I THINK ABOUT 55; IN GATES
COUNTY IT IS 5O PERCENT PLUS; PERQUIMANS IS 4O--I.AM TALKIN
ABOUT THE BLACK POPUL.ATION. IN PASQUOTANK IT IS ABOUT
39 OR '+O PER.CENT. MARTIN COUNTY IS LESS THAN 4O PERCENT.
WHAT ABOUT IN WARREN COUNTY?
WARREN COUNTY--THE BLACK POPULATION WAS 59.9
PERCENT BLACK. IT IS ABOLIT 5 PERCENT INDIAN.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE HOUSING PATTERNS IN
THOSE COUNTIES?
YES.
WOULD YOU DESCRIBET THOSE, PLEASE?
GENERALLY SPEAKING, IN THE AREA HOUSII.IG PATTERNS
YOU CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT BLACKS LIVE IN CERTAIN AREAS AND
WHITES LIVE IN CERTAIN AREAS. AND THIS IS TRUE EVEN IN THE
RURAL AREAS TO A DEGREE. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE CERTAIN
PRECINCTS THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK--HEAVILY BLACK. YOU
HAVE OTHERS THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE.
IN THE RURAL AREAS YOU DO HAVE, OF COURSE, ASo
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WOULD BE EXPECTED, MIXED COMMUNITIES TO SOME DEGREE. IN
THE CITIES--MOST OF THE CITES IN MY AREA__FOR EXAMPLE, IN
ROANOKE RAPIDS, IT IS ABOUT 9O OR 95 PERCENT WHITE. BLACKS
LIVE ON THE OUTSKIRTS OR FRINGES OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT.
IN I^/ARRENTON, THE CITY LIMITS ARE VERY
RESTRICTED. THE CITY ITSELF IS A POPULATION OF ABOUT
2,OOO. IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE.-VERY FEW BLACKS IN
TOWN. ON THE OUTSKI RTS OF TOWN, .JUST BEYOND THE C I Ty
LIMIT SIGN, YOU SEE A LOT OF BLACKS. THEY MAKE A RING
AROUND THE TOWN. THAT PATTERN FOLLOI^/S THROUGHOUT THE AREA
IN GENERAL.
THERE ARE DISTINCT HOUSING PATTERNS IN THE AREA-
BLACK AND WHITE COMMUNITiES.
A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF SOCIAL ATTRACTION BETWEEN
THE RACES?
A IT IS VERY LIMITED. THE;E IS SOME, BUT IT IS
NOT VERY MUCH. ON THE SOCIAL LEVEL YOU DON'T HAVE VERY
MUCH SOCIAL RACIAL INTERMINGLLNG.
A WOULD YOU DESCRIBE, PLEASE, THE LEVEL OF
MUNICIPAL SERVICES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY COMPARED TO THE
WHITE COMMUI'IITIES?
A THERE I S AGAIN A DI STINCT PATTERN OF I,/HAT I
WOULD CALL DISCRIMINATION, OR IT MIGHT BETTER BE DESCRIBED
I GUESS AS A LOWER LEVEL OF SERVICES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY
THAN YOU FIND IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
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PRECISlON REi'ORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN THE GENERAL AREA THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT,
YOU FIND THAT IN THE CITIES YOU CAN TELL WHEN YOU LEAVE THE
WHITE COMMUNITY AND GO TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY BY THE
QU/ILITY OF THE STREETS, THE STREETLIGHTS. EVEN WE FOUND IN
SEVERAL SITUATIONS YOU HAVE LESS FIRE HYDRANTS AND YOU
HAVE SMALLER WA]ER LINES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. FOR
EXAMPLE, YOU MIGHT HAVE A TWO-INCH LINE IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY AND A SIX-INCH LINE IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
I THINK THESE PATTERNS HAVE PERSISTED OVER A
LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND STILL PERSISTS. THERE IS SOME
EFFORT TO CORRECT THAT THROUGH LAWSUITS AND THROUGH VOLUN-
TARY EFFORTS TO HAVE THESE PATTERNS CHANGED. THERE IS SOME
CHANGE COMING, BUT IT IS STILL DISTINCTIVE.
WHAT IS THE SITUATION WITH REGARD TO EMPLOYMENT
OPPORTUNITIES FOR BLACKS IN THESE COUNTIES?
A IF YOU GO BACK A FEW VTENS WHEN WE HAD FARMING
AS A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR EM'l'.o"'*' FOR THE AREA IN GENERAL,
THAT HAS CHANGED TO A LARGE DEGREE. YOU STILL HAVE A LOT
OF FARMING, BUT THE SITUATION HAS GONE FROM A FIVE-FAMILY
ON A LARGE 2OO OR 3OO.ACRE FARM TO FIVE OR SIX FAMILIES
TO MAYBE THREE OR FOUR MEN WITH LARGE TRACTORS WHO NOW
OPEF.ATE THESE FARMS.
MOST OF THE LABOR NOW HAS GONE TO THE SMALL
FACTORIES OR TO THE MILLS, WE CALL IT. THE ROANOKE RAPIDS
AREA HAS SEVERAL MILLS THAT EMPLOY A LOT OF PEOPLE. MOST
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX- ARIZONA
OF THE TOWNS IN THE AREA HAVE AT LEAST ONE OR TI^/O
FACTORIES, SEWING FACTORY OR SOME OTHER KIND. AND A LOT
OF PEOPLE COMMUTE TO RICHMOND, VIRGINlA, TO DURHAM AND
RALEIGH AND OThER AREAS FOR EMPLOYMENT.
I^/HAT YOU FIND IS STILL A SITUATION WHERE YOU
WILL FIND BLACKS ON THE LOWER LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT WITH THE
HARDEST JOBS AND LOWEST PAY. AND AS YOU GO OUT, YOU FIND
LESS BLACKS. WHEN YOU GET TO THE TOP YOU FIND FEW IN TERMS
OF THE HIARCHY OF THE.IOB ITSELF, SAY TO MANAGER OR TO
FOREMAN OR WHATEVER.
AND OF COURSE, AS THE PAY GOES UP, SIMILARLY
YOU FIND LESS BLACKS.
a WHAT I S THE PATTERN OF SCHOOL I NTEGRAT I Or.l I r.l
THI S AREA?
A I I^JILL START WITH WARREN COUNTY AND MOVE OUT.
YOU HAVE AS A RESULT OF LAWSUITS IN MOST CASES--YOU HAVE
THE DESEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEMS. WHAT HAPPENED IN MOST OF
THE AREAS WHEN THE--WHEN THERE COULD BE NO MORE DELAY IN
TERMS OF PUTTING OFF THE INEVITABLE, FIRST OF ALL IN
WARREN COUNTY THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO CREATE A SEPARATE
SCHOOL SYSIEM IN THE CITY OF WARRENTON, WHICH I HAVE
ALREADY DESCRIBED AS BEING PREDOMINANTLY WHITE. AND THEY
WERE GOING TO TAKE THE FACULTY OF THE SCHOOLS-.THERE WERE
TWO SCHOOLS IN THE CITY, WHICH THE PEOPLE WANTED TO TAKE
AND CREATE A WHITE SCHOOL DISTRICT OF AND EXCLUDE THOSE
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIB!NG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BLACKS THAT LIVED JUST O(JT OF THE CITY LIMITS.
I THINF: THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT 40 OR 5O
BLACKS GOING TO THAT SYSTEM. THAT WAS IN LI TIGATIOI.I AND
THE EFFORT FAI LED. AND THEN THE SAME PEOPLE CREATED AN
ACADEMY--A PRIVATE ACADEMY. SO YOU HAVE IN WARRENTON NOW
ONE SCI{OOL SYSTEM THAT I S SUPPORTED BY THE COUNTY, AND YOU
HAVE A PRIVATE ACADEMY THAT IS SUPPORTED BY INDIVIDUALS.
THE SCI-IOOL SYSTEM I S OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK--ABOI.JT BO PERCENT
THE OTHER 20 PERCENT IS ABOUT 5 PERCENT INDIAN.
I DONIT KNOW WHAT THE POPULATION OF THE ACADEMY
IS, BUT IT HAS BEEN DECLINING IN RECENT YEARS.
IN OTHER AREAS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN HALIFAX COUNTY,
IN THE COUNTY YOU HAVE THREE SYSTEMS. YOU HAVE THE HALIFAX
COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM I^JH I CH I S OVERWHELMI NGLY BLACK--ABOUT
80 PERCENT AGAIN, MAYBE MORE. YOU HAVE THE ROANOKE RAPIDS
CITY SYSTEM WHICH IS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE--ABOUT 9O PERCENT.
AND THEN YOU HAVE THE WELDON CITY SYSTEM WHICH IS MIXED.
I GUESS IT IS ABOUT 5O PLUS PERCENT WHITE, MAYBE 55. AND
IN OTHER AREAS YOU HAVE SINGLE SYSTEMS, BUT IN MANY CASES,
SAY IN BERTIE COUNTY, YOU HAVE AT LEAST ONE PRIVATE ACADEMY.
IN MOST OF THE COUNTIES WHERE I,JHITES DO NOT WANT
TO PARTICIPITTE IN THE INTEGRATED SYSTEM, THEY HAVE SENT
THEIR CHILDREN TO THE ACADEMIES.
HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD YOU SAY LIVE IN THIS AREA
WITHOUT ANY FORMAL SCHOOLING?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THERE IS STILL A LARGE NUMBER. I WILL ANSWER
IT THIS WAY: THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT
COMPLETED BEYOND FOURTH, FIFTH, SIXTH GRADE, WHO HAVE
DROPPEIT OUT FOR SOME REASON OR ANOTHER. THERE ARE STILL A
LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE AROUND. I GUESS MANY OF THEM ARE
OLDER NOW.
YOU STILL HAVE SOME HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO
ARE DROPPING OUT, BUT I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE DECLINING.
BUT YOU HAVE A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE I WOULD SAY WHO FOR ONE
REASON OR ANOTHER..PRIMARILY HAVING TO DO WITH EMPLOYMENT
I WOUTD THINK-.DROPPED OUT OF SCHOOL YEARS AGO AND WHO DID
NOT EVEN COMPLETE ANY SCHOOLING BEYOND FOURTH, FIFTH
GRADE.
A ARE THESE PEOPLE BLACK OR I^JH I TE ?
I WOULD SAY THE MA.JORITY.-OVERWHELMING MAJORITY.
WOULD BE BLACK. AND IN MY IMMEDIA]E AREA THERE V.IOULD BE
INDIANS IN THAT GROUP
a Hot^/ woulD You DESCBIBE THE LEVEL OF CROSS-COUNTY
INTERMINGLING?
A WELL, I THiNK YOU HAVE HAD CITY AND COUNTY
LOYALTY: III AM FROM WARREN COUNTY AND YOU ARE FROM HALIFAX
THE PEOPLE ARE GETTING AWAY FROM THAT, AND HAVE BEEN GETTIN
AWAY FROM IT. FOR EXAMPLE, IN SOME OF THE ORGANIZATIONS
THAT WE BELONG TO, PEOPLE HAVE DETERMINED THROUGH THEIR
OWN EFFORTS OR THROUGH_BEII{G TOLD THAT WHEN YOU LEAVE WARRE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COUNTY AND GO TO HALIFAX, IF YOU DONIT SEE THE SIGN THAT
SAYS rtHAL I FAX COUNTY, rr YOU DON ' T KNOI^/ YOU ARE I N HAL I FAX,
BECAUSE THE HOUSING.-THE DELAPIDATED HOUSING--IS THE SAME.
THE POVERTY I S THE SAI'1E.
WHEN YOU GO INTO NORTHAMPTON YOU HAVE THE SAME
SITUATION. PEOPLF WORK ON THE SAME KIND OF JOBS. THEY
GO TO THE SAME SCHOOLS. WHEN I SAY THE SAME SCHOOLS, THE
QUALITY OF EDUCATION THAT THEY RECEIVE WOULD BE BASICALLY
THE SAME. AND SO PE()PLE HAVE FCIUND THAT THERE IS NO
SANCTITY IN THE BOUNDARIES THAT ARE SET UP. THEY ARE JUST
POLITICAL BOUNDARIES.
. NOW, I MIGHT SAY--YOtJ KNOW, I THINK I SAID
EARLIER THAT YOU KNOW BLACKS AS WELL AS WHITES DO LIKE THE
IDEA OF THE BOUNDARY LINE. IT MEANS SOMETHING. BUT WE
HAVE FOUND IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY FOR PARTICL'LARLY THAT
IT DOESNTT MEAN AS MT,ICH AS MAYBE W; THOUGHT OR OTHER FOLK
THOUGHT IT ONCE MEANT.
..
a How wouLD You DESCRIBE THE VOTING PATTERNS OF
PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THESE COUNTIES?
A WELL, IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION, WHAT YOU
HAVE IS THIS: WHEN A BLACK CANDIDATE RUNS FOR OFFICE, IF
HE IS A GOOD CANDIDATE-.AND WE LIKE GOOD CANDIDATES TOO--
THEN YOU CAN COUNT ON GETTING THE BLACK VOTE. BUT YOU
CANNOT COUNT ON GETTING SUPPORT IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
AND IHAT
'O:
BEEN TRUE IN RACE AFTER RACE FOR
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PRECISION REPORTiNG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
OFFI CE AFTER OFFI CE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN WHITE CANDIDATES RUN,
AGAIN IF THEY ARE GOOD CANDIDATES, THEY CAN COUNT ON GETTIN
THE WHITE VOTE AND THE BLACK VOTE. AND WE DONIT HAVE THE
KIND OF RESIPROCITY THAT WE OUGHT TO HAVE IN MY OPINION.
I DONIT KNOW. I THINK WHITES FOR SOME REASON, WHATEVER,
FEEL THAT THEY DO NOT WANT--YET THEY REFUSE TO--NUMBERS.
AND I DONrT MEAN THAT IS ABSOLUTE; OF COURSE, IT IS NOT.
BUT THEY DO NOT VOTE TO ELECI' BLACK CANDIDATES AS A GENERAL
PRINCIPLE. THEY VOTE AGAINST THEINI. IT DOESNIT MAKE ANY
DIFFERENCE HOW QUA.LIFIED THEY ARE.
HOI^J DO THESE VOTING PATTERNS AFFECT PARTICIPATIO
BY BLACK VOTERS?
WELL, AGAIN, WHAT HAPPENS, THE END RESULT I
THINK IS-.IN MANY RACES, OF COURSE, WARREN COUNTY IS AN
EXCEPTION AS IN THE LAST ELECTION. NORTHAMPTON MAY BE.
BUT IN CASES WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A MA\'ORITY BLACK POPULA-
TION OR A MA.JORITY BLACK DISTRJCT, YOUR CANDIDATES DONIT
GET ELECTED. OF COURSE, THIS HAS AN EFFECT ON THE VOTERS
BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TOLD--BLACK PEOPLE.-THAT YOUR
VOTE DOESNIT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE ANYWAY. A LOT OF THEM WAN
TO BELIEVE THAT; A LOT OF THEM DO BELIEVE THAT.
WHEN YOU CONVINCE THOSE FOLK THAT THEIR VOTE
DOES MEAN SOMETHING, THAT THEY CAN GO OUT AND ELECT PEOPLE
OF THEIR CHOICE AND THEY GO OUT AND YOU GET THEM EXCITED
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ABO(JT THE CAMPAIGN AND GET THEM TO PART I CI PATE AND GET
THEM TO COME OUT AND VOTE, YOU HAVE A RESULT WHICH TI1EIR
CAND I DATE WHI CH EVERYBODY WAS EI.JTHUSED ABOUT I S DEFEATED--
AND THIS HAPPENS TIME AND AGAIN.-THEN YOU HAVE VERY-.HAVE
A VERY DIFFICULT TIME CONVINCING THOSE FOLK TO COME BACK
AGAI N.
WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT IT CONVINCES THEM THAT
THEIR VOTE DOESNIT MAKE A DIFFERENCE, THAT IT WONTT BT.
ANY DIFFERENT WHETHER THEY GO OUT AND VOTE OR NOT. AND SO
AS A RESULT OF THAT, IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR
CANDIDATES TO GET SUPPORT.
DO BLACK VOTERS OR BLACK PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN
THE POLITICAL PROCESS AT THE SAME LEVEL AS WHITES?
NO. IN ADDITION TO WHAT I HAVE JUST SAID.-AND
THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS .JUST THE END RESULT.
KNOW, BLACKS--WELL, YOU HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY BACK, I
GUESS, TO WHEN WE COULD NOT PARTICIPATE. AND THEN YOU COME
UP AND YOU HAVE SOME OF THE ARTIFICIAL BARRIERS REMOVED,
BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE SOME OF THE PSYCHOLOGICA
BARRIERS. AND A LOT OF THOSE BARRIERS ARE STILL THERE,
SUCH AS THE FEELING THAT III I.JORK FOR MR. JONES WHO I S
WH I TE, WHO OWI.IS THE FARM, AND HE REALLY DOESN ' T TH INK THAT
I OUGHT TO BE PARTICIPATING IN VOTING AND REGISTRATION. AN
HE IS THE ONE WHO PAYS MY SALARY.II YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE
K I ND OF THOIJGHT PROCESS THAT MANY BLACKS GO THROUGH. AND
YO
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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THEY ARE NOT I./ILLING IN MANY INSTANCES--THIS IS A
PSYCHOI..OGICAL BARRIER, I WOULD SAY. MANY TIMES IT IS A
REAL BARRIER, BECAUSE MANY Of: THOSE FOLK THAT THEY WORK FOR
DONIT WANT THEM TO PAF..TICIPATE, AND THEY WILL MAKE IT BE
KNOWN.
FOR EXAMPLE, I N I^,ARREN COUNTY, ON PR I MARY DAY
NORMALLY THAT IS A DAY OF SETTING TOBACCO FROM EARLY IN
THE MORNING UNTIL LATE AT NIGHT. AND YOU KNOW, THE PARTI-
CULAR FARMER WILL MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY HE HAS INFLUENCE
WITH IS IN THE TOBACCO FIELD. AND OF COURSE, THE FARMER
HIMSELF--THE WHITE FARMER--CAN TAKE OFF IN HIS TRUCK AND
GO DOWN AND VOTE. BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING FOR HIM
ARE LEFT IN THE FIELD. AND THAT HAPPENS MORE THAN YOU
MIGHT THINK. AND THIS MIGHT AFFECT iO OR 12 VOTERS ON
ONE PARTICULAR PLACE ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY.
so You HAVE T.IE PSYCHOT-OG I CAL BARR I ERS AS I WAS
TALKING ABOUT. YOU ALSO HAVE THE ACTUAL BARRIER OF THE
PEOPLE BEING PREVENTED IN MANY INSTANCES FROM PARTICIPATING
AND OF COURSE, THERE IS A CARRYOVER ALSO. I THINK THERE IS
STILL SOME FEAR IN BLACK VOTERS IN THE AREA I AM TALKING
ABOUT. WHETHER IT IS JUSTIFIED OR NOT--IT MAY WELL BE
.JUSTIFIED, BECAUSE I THINK THE KLAN.-AND IF YOU GO BACK IN
HISTORY FAR ENOUGH, THE RED SHIRI'S, MAY BE THE PEOPLE WHO
PUT THE INITIAL FEAR ON BLACKS--THAT YOU DONIT PARTICIPATE.
WELL, THE KLAN IS STILL ALIVE IN NORTH CAROLINA
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AS YOU WELL KNOW. I DON'T KNOW IF THE RECORD SHOWS IT,
BUT IN THE GREENSBORO SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE WERE KILLED
BY THE KLAN OR THE STATESVILLE SITUATION WHERE RECENTLY
A CROSS WAS BURNED IN THE HOME OF A MINISTER.-IN THE YARD
OF A MINI STER--AI.JD THAT COMES OUT IN THE STATE PRESS AND
I GUESS II'I THE NATIONAL PRESS. PEOPLE ARE AWARE THAT SOME
OF THESE SITUATIONS STILL EXIST.
AND OF COURSE, WHEN YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF
INTIMIDATION, YOU DO HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WILLINGNESS OF
PEOPLE TO GO OUT AND GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS.
NOW, OBVIOUSLY THAT IS NOT THE SAME EXTENT THAT
IT USED TO BE. BUT THERE IS STILL SOME LiNGERING EFFECTS
FROM THAT.
a Do you IN youR opINIoN--Do BLACKS HAVE AN EQUAL
OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT REPRESENTATIVES OF THEIR CHOICE IN
DISTRICTS WHERE WHITES ARE A MAJOR;TY OF THE VOTERS?
A NO. I THINK FOR THE SAME REASONS I HAVE GIVEN
YOU. IN ADDITION, I THINK THFRE ARE PROBABLY SOME BLACKS
THAT PROBABLY CAN GET ELECTED--AND THE RECORD SHOWS THAT
SOME HAVE BEEN ELECTED.-IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS. BUT
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS NO. BLACKS DO NOT HAVE THE
SAME OPPORTUNiTY TO ELECT PEOPLE OF THEIR CHOICE IN MULTI-
MEMBER DISTRICTS.
A IN THE LEGISLATURE IIAVE YOU WORKED WITH ANY
BLACKS WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED FROM MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS IN
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I.JHI CH BLACKS I^JERE A MINOR I TY OF THE TOTAL ELECTORATE?
THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.YES. WE HAVE SEVERAL IN
COULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR EXPERIENCE V\,ORKING WITH
SOME OF THOSE BLACK LEGiSLATORS?
YEAH. I WOULD SAY FIRST OF ALL THAT THEY ARE
GOOD PEOPLE. BUT I GUESS THE\' ARE LIKE OTHER PEOPLE WHO
GET ELECTED. AND THE PROBLEM IS SEE IS THIS: THERE IS A
DEGREE OF INTIMIDATION ON THESE BLACKS WHO ARE ELECTED FROM
THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS. IT GOES LIKE THIS: A WHITE
WHO IS ELECTED IN THE MULTI-I4EMBER DISTRICT CAN TAKE A
STAND THAT IS DIRECTLY CONTRARY TO THE MINORITY BLACK VOTE
IN THAT DISTRICT AND GET REELECTED.
A BLACK CANNOT TAKE A STAND THAT IS DIRECTLY
CONTRARY TO THE MAJORITY WHITE AND FEEL THAT HE CAN GET
REELECTED. AND WHEN I SAY IITAKE A STAND,II I AM TALK I NG
ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT MAY BE A RACIAL ISSUE, FOR EXAI4PLE. AN
YOU HAVE A BLACK WHO IS ELECTED IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT-
HE DOES NOT FEEL THE SAME FREEDOM TO TAKE A STAND ON THAT
ISSUE KNOWING THAT WHEN HE GOES BACK FOR REELECTION HE IIAS
GOT TO GO DOWN IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY AND STAND FOR
REELECTTON, AND THE WHITES CAN THROW HIM OUT OF OFFICE2
WHETHEF. HI S STAND I^/AS .JUSTI FI ED OR NOT.
AND THAT HAS AN EFFECT IN MY OPINION AND IN MY
EXPERIENCE ON BLACKS WHO ARE ELECTED IN MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS.
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AND TRANSCRIBING. ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COULD YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?
WELL, I DO RECALL THAT DURING THE TII4E THAT WE
SERVED THIS YEAR THAT ONE OR TI^/O ISSUES CAI"1E UP, AND BEING
FROI"I A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT I WAS ASKED TO TAKE THE LEAD
ON THE ISSUE. I THINK THAT MAY HITVE BEEN THE REASON FOR IT.
A YOU WERE ASKE.D TO TAKE THE LEAD BY I,JHOM?
'dE HAVE A BLACK CAUCUS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY--
ALL THE BLACK MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. AND OF
COURSE, THE DISCUSSIONS WERE ON THAT CAUCUS MEETING--THERE
I./ERE SEVERAL OF US. AND I THINK THE REASON WAS THAT
PROtsABLY THE FACT THAT.I WAS ELECTED FROM A SINGLE MEMtsER
DISTRICT, I WAS ASKED TO TAKE THE LEAD.
IN YOUR OPINION, OR I SHOULD SAY IN YOUR
EXPERIENCE, HAVE BLACKS WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR DISTRICT COME
TO YOU AS A REPRESENTATIVE IN THE HOUSE WITF'THEIR PROBLEMS:
YES, ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION. AND I WELCOME
THEM, SOME OF WHOM KNEW ME AND SOME DID NOT, BUT WHO KNEW
THAT I HAD BEEN ELECTED FROM WARREN COUNTY. AND WHEI\I THEY
CAME TO ME--I AM NOT SURE FOR WHAT REASON--BUT THEY FELT
THAT--AT LEAST DURII'IG MY Di SCUSSIONS I FOUND THEY FELT I
WOULD BE RESPONSIVE TO THE ISSUES THAT THEY HAD AT HAND.
AND iN SOME CASE I WAS ABLE TO BE OF HELP AND
SOME I WAS NOT. BUT I MADE AN EFFORT TO. I FEEL LIKE--
WELL, I GUESS SOMETIMES PEOPLE READ ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY OR
WHAT YOU DO OR HEAR ABOUT IT AND THEY FEEL LIKE THIS IS A
a
A
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PERSON THAT I CAN GO TO. I RECALL WHEN I WAS MUCH
YOUNGER-_I GUESS i WAS NOT OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE AT THAT
TIME. BUT I DID HAVE A CONGRESSMAN. BUT THE WAY I
PERCEIVED IT lN MY MIND-_MY CONGRESSMAN WAS FROM NEW YORK.
HIS NAME WAS ADAM POWELL. HE SPOKE ON THE ISSUES THE WAY
THAT I FELT.
A I DIRECT YOUP. ATTENTION--MAY I APPROACH THE
WITNESS, YOUR HONOR?
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
BY MS. GUINIER:
YES.
a DEFENDANTST EXHIBIT 10(A).
(PAUSE. )
THIS IS A MAP OF SENTATE DISTRICT NUMBER 2 AS IT
NOW EXISTS. AND THE YELLOW LINES REPRESENT THE EXISTING
DISTRICT.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
EXHIBIT NUMBER?
DID YOU IDENTIFY THAT BY
MS. GUINIER: - I BELIEVE I SAID IT WAS
DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 1O(A).
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THAT MAP, DO YOU
BELIEVE THAT BLACKS IN THAT DISTRICT HAVE AN EQUAL
OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THEIR CHOICE?
A THAT IS IN THE DISTRICT AS IT NOW EXISTS?
a THAT rS RIGH_T.
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NO. THAT IS MONK HARRINGTONIS DISTRICT. HE IS
FROM BERTIE COUNTY. THE DISTRICT IS LESS THAN 5O PERCENT
BLACK AS IT NOW EXISTS. AND A BLACK CANNOT BE ELECTED IN
MY OPINION IN THAT DISTRICT RUNNING AGAINST MR. HARRINGTON
OR RUNNING AGAINST ANYONE ELSE WHO IS A GOOD WHITE
CANDIDATE.
A AND WHEN YOU SAY THE DISTRICT IS LESS THAN 50
PERCENT BLACK, ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE VOTERS OR POPULA-
TION?
A VOTING AGE POPULATION, AS I RECALL. I BELIEVE IT
IS 55 PERCENT BLACK OVERALL POPULATIONWISE.
a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHY SOME PEOPLE DO
NOT WANT TO ENLARGE THAT DISTRICT?
MR. LEONARD: IF IT PLEASE THE COURT,
I OBJECT TO THAT QUESTION. THAT IS PURELY SPECULATIVE
WHY SOME PEOPLE_--
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : (INTERPOSING) WE WILL
GET AN ANSWER IF HE KNOWS ANYONE WHO HAS SUCH AN ATTITUDE.
IT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE DECISION.
THE WITNESS: I KNOW WHY MONK HARRINGT
WOULD NOT WANT TO ENLARGE TT, BECAUSE IF THE DISTRICT WERE
ENLARGED TO BE A MAJORITY BLACK POPULATION DISTR]CT, HE
MIGHT NOT BE REELECTED. I THINK THE SAME THING WOULD
APPLY TO SOME WHITE CITIZENS I,JHO LIVE IN THAT DISTRICT WHO
MAY NOT WANT TO HAVE $ BLACK REPRESENTATIVE.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
I THINK BLACKS WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT ENLARGED TO
INCLUDE MORE BLACKS SO THAT THEY WOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
TO ELECT A BLACK OR SOMEONE OF THEIR CHOICE.
MS. GUINIER:
QUEST I ONS .
I HAVE NO FURTHER
C R O S S _ E X A M I N A T I O N 9:49 A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DID THE WARREN COUNTY POLITICAL ACTION COUNCIL
ENDORSE A CANDIDATE FOR CLERK OF SUPERIOR COURT IN THE
LAST ELECTION?
A QUITE POSSI BLY SO. I F I RECALL CORRECTLY, IT
WAS RICHARD HUNTER OR WE DIDN'T ENDORSE ANYBODY. I DONIT
RECALL.
A ISNIT IT CORRECT THAT RICHARD HUNTER, THE WHITE
INCUMBENT, RAN AGAINST A BLACK PTBSOU IN THAT ELECTION?
A WELL, YEAH
A WHAT WAS WRONG WITH. THE BLACK PERSON THAT THE
COUNCIL DIDNIT WANT TO ENDORSE HIM?
A LET ME ANSWER YOUR FIRST QUESTION. I THINK IT
IS CORRECT THAT MR. HUNTER RAN AGAINST, AGAIN, MR. BYRD,
I BELIEVE WAS THE BLACK CANDIDATE WHO RAN.
A WHAT I,VAS THERE ABOUT THE BLACK PERSON THAT CAUSE
YOUR COUNCIL TO REJECT THAT BLACK AND SUPPORT MR. HUNTER?
A MR. BYRD WAS-NOT A GOOD CANDIDATE IN THE
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COLLECTIVE OPINION O[.'THE POLiTICAL ACTION COUNCIL.
A HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE POL I T I CAL ACT I ON COUNC I L
ARE THERE ?
A WE NEVER SAID WE DIDNIT SUPPORT WHITE CANDIDATES.
A REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE, HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE
POLITICAL ACTION COUNCIL IN WARREN COUNTY ARE THERE?
A ANYONE WHO HAS A LIKE MIND--THOSE OF US WHO ARE
MEMBERS--WE DONIT TAKE MEMBERSHIPS. WE ARE OPEN TO ANY-
ONE WHO VIANTS TO COME IN AND PARTICIPATE.
A YOU POLL THE BLACK PEOPLE OF THE COUNTY BEFORE
YOU TAKE A POSITION ON CANDIDATES?
A WELL, I GUESS IT WOULDN'T BE A SCIENTIFIC POLL,
BUT IT WOULD BE A POLL.
A SO IT WAS A VIEW OF A FEW OF THE BLACK PEOPLE IN
YOUR COUNTY, INCLUDING YOURSELF, THAT YOU PREFERRED WHITE
PERSON HUNTER OVER THE. BLACK PERSON BYRDi IS THAT RIGHT?
A WELL, WE DECIDED THAT BYRD WAS NOT---
A (INTERPOSING) CAN.YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION YES
OR NO?
A NO, I CANIT ANSWER IT YES OR NO.
A NOW, IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU RECALL AN
INSTANCE IN THE 1985 SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE WHEN
REPRESENTATIVE DAN BLUE WAS INTIMIDATED INTO NOT SUPPORTIN
A POSITION THAT WAS GOOD FOR BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE OF HIS
MA.JORITY WHITE CONSTITUENCY?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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A NO. I DONIT BELIEVE I HAVE HEARD THAT SAID IT.I
TH I S COURT.
A DID YOU NOT LEAVE AN INFERENCE OR INTEND TO LEAVE
AN INFERENCE WITH THI S COURT THAT BLACK LEGI SLATORS I^JHO
ARE ELECTED FROM A MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICT ARE NOT AS FREE
TO SUPPORT THE INTERESTS OF BLACK PEOPLE A5 YOU ARE?
A I DIDNIT INTEND TO LEAVE AN INFERENCE. THAT IS
WHAT I SAID.
A IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT THERE WERE
INSTANCES IN THE 1983 SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE WHEN
RERPRESENTATIVE DAN BLUE WAS INTIMIDATED BY THE FACT THAT
HE REPRESENTED A DISTRICT THAT WAS MA.JORITY WHITE; IS
THAT CORRECT ?
A NO, SIR. THAT IS NOT CORRECT.
A EXPLAIN WHAT DIFFERENCE YOU PERCEIVE, COUNSEL,
BETWEEN MY QUESTIoN AND YOUR nrrrswln.
A WELL, I WAS NOT ASKED ABOUT REPRESENTATIVE DAN
BLUE AND I DID NOT ANSWER AAOUT HIM.
A IN OTHER WORDS, DAN BLUE WAS NOT INTIMIDATED IN
AN Y l^,AY ?
A NOT THAT I AM AWARE OF.
A ALL RIGHT. HOW ABOUT REPRESENTATIVE C. B. HOUSER
FROM FORSYTH COUNTY ? I^/AS HE I NT I MI DATED ?
A HE MAY HAVE BEEI{. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I
DON I T RECALL THE SPEC_I FI C REPRESENTAT IVE I^/HO MAY HAVE BEEN
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INTIMATED, BUT I KNOI^/ IT WAS NOT DAN IN MY OPINION.
IT MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE OTHERS.
A NOW, REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE, YOU MADE A VERY
SERIOUS CHARGE IN THIS COURTROOM THIS MORNING.
A I AM AWARE OF THAT.
A I WANT TO KNOW WHEN AND WHO YOU ARE REFERRING TO
WAS INTIMIDATED IN THE 198] SESSION OF THE NORTH CAROLINA
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, A BLACK MEMBER WHO COMES FROM A
MAJORITY I^JHITE DI STRICT.
A I DIDNIT LIMIT IT TO A BLACK MEMBER, AS I RECALL.
MY ANSWER WAS NOT LIM{TED TO ONE PERSON.
A RERPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE, DO YOU KNOW OF ANY
BLACK MEMBER OF THE NORTH CAROLINA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE
WHO REPRESENTS A MAJORITY t^/HITE DISTRICT WHO. WAS INTIMI-
DATED INTO FAILING TO SUPPORT THE INTERESTS OF THE BLACK
PEOPLE I N TH I S STATE BECAUSE OF TT-IT FACT THAT HE OR SHE
HAS MAJORITY WHITE CONSTITUENCY?
A WELL, YOU TURNED THE QUESTION AROUND A LITTLE BIT
a You KNow WHAT THE QUESTION IS, DONIT yOU?
A LET ME ANSWER IT THIS WAY_--
a (rrurERPosrNG) EXCUSE ME.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, YOU ARE
ENTITLED TO GET A RESPONSIVE ANSVJER, BUT THIS I,JITNESS IS
ENTITLED TO ANSWER A QUESTION. SO LET HIM COMPLETE HIS
ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MR. LEONARD:
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
MR. BALLANCE.
IF THE COURT PLEASE-__
(INTERPOSING) GO AHEAD,
THE WITNESS: I DONIT BELIEVE I USED
THE WORD ''TNITIMIDATEDII FIRST OF ALL. WHAT I SAID-_BLACKS
FROM MAJORITY--FROM MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS DO NOT FEEL AS
FREE TO TAKE STANDS ON CERTAIN SENSITIVE RACIAL ISSUES AS
BLACKS FROM A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT. AND I STAND BY THAT
POSITION.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A CAN YOU PROVIDE ANY INSTANCE WHERE THAT OCCURRED
IN THE 198] SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY-_HOUSE OF
REPRESENTAT IVES ?
A NOT SPECIFICALLY; NO.
a rHAT IS YOUR OPINION?
A, YES, SIR.
A BASED ON WHAT?
A BASED ON MY SERVING fOR SIX MONTHS WITH THE
BLACKS AND THE WHITES WHO WERE THERE, AND BASED ON MY
PRIOR EXPERIENCE FOR THE LAST 15 OR 20 YEARS.
A MR. BALLANCE, YOU ARE A LAWYER?
A YES, SIR.
A IS IT FAIR FOR ME TO SURMISE FROM YOUR TESTIMONY
THAT THAT OPINION IS NOT BASED ON ANY FACT OF ANY KIND?
A NO, SIR.
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.90S5
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A WHAT FACT DO YOU BASE THAT OPINION?
A ON MY EXPERIENCE AND IN SERVING THE LAST SIX
MONTHS AND ON MY PRIOR EXPERIENCE IN POLITICS.
A IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY HERE THIS MORNING THAT THE
TOBACCO FARMERS IN THAT NORTHEASTERN AREA OF NORTH
CAROLINA SYSTEMATICALLY WORK BLACK FARM HANDS ON PRIMARY
ELECTION DAY LONGER HOURS TO KEEP THEM FROM GOING TO THE
POLLS ?
A THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE AT LEAST IN WARREN AND
HALIFAX. I WOULD FEEL THAT THAT WOULD BE TRUE IN OTHER
COUNTIES AS WELL. BUT I KNOW ABOUT THOSE TWO.
IT MAY NOT BE LIMITED TO TOBACCO FARMERS.
A DID YOU RECEIVE ANY SUPPORT FROM WHITES WHEN YOU
RAN IN THE PRIMARY ELECTION IN 1982?
A I RECEIVED A LOT OF SUPPORT AFTER I GOT
NOMINATED-_VERBAL SUPPORT_-SAYING iNO' THEY HAD SUPPORTED
ME. I KNOW THAT SOME PTOPI-T SUPPORTED ME. I KNOW THAT
MANY DI DN I T.
A ARE THERE WHITES ELECTED TO POLITICAL OFFICE IN
WARREN COUNTY FROM BLACK MAJORITY DISTRICTS?
A WARREN COUNTY IS--THERE ARE MORE BLACK VOTERS IN
WARREN COUNTY THAN THERE ARE WHITE. AND SO, ALL THOSE
WHITES WHO WERE ELECTED LAST TIME--I THINK RICHARD HUNTER
I^/AS ELECTED_-I AM NOT SURE THAT ANY OTHER WHITES RAN AND
WERE ELECTED LAST YEAR-.
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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A WERE ANY BLACKS ELECTED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN
WARREN COUNTY FROM MA.JORITY WHITE DISTRICTS?
A AGAIN THE SAME THING WOULD APPLY AS THE LAST
ELECTION. THERE WERE MORE REGISTERED BLACK VOTERS. AND
SO I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU COULD DRAW A CONCLUSION FROM
THAT.
A IS THE WARREN COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
:
ELECTED FROM DISTRICTS?
A THEY ARE NOT. THEY HAVE TO LIVE IN A DISTRICT
BUT THEY RUN AT LARGE, WHATEVER THAT IS CALLED.
a Ho|,/ ABoUT THE SCHoOL BOARD?
A SAME THING--SAME RULE. THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THE
COMMISSIONERS ARE DIVIDED INTO DISTRICTS, BUT ALL OF THE
MEMBERS RUN AT LARGE. THEY SIMPLY HAVE TO RESIDE IN THE
DISTRICT.
a AND THE WARREN.COUNTY UOO*' O' COMMISSIONERS HAS
THREE BLACKS AND TWO WHITES?
A THAT IS RIGHT
A AND THE SCHOOL BOARD HAS TWO BLACKS AND ONE
INDIAN AND TWO WHITES?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A YOU INDICATED THAT YOUR LAI^J PARTNER, MR. CLAYTO
HAD RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN WARREN COUNTY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A WHEN I,\'AS THAT?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
,79.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I CANIT BE SPECIFIC. IT WAS SOMETIME PRIOR TO--
IT WAS IN THE SIXTIES, I WOULD SAY.
A DO COUNTY COMMISSIONERS RUN ON A PARTISAN BILL?
A YEAH. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAVE DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS TO RUN.
A DID MR. CLAYTON RUN AS A REPUBLICAN OR A
DEMOCRAT ?
A HE RAN AS A DEMOCRAT. HE RAN FOR THE STATE
HOUSE. HE MAY HAVE RUN FOR COUNTY COMMISSIONER ALSO. BUT
I KNOW HE RAN FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY--STATE HOUSE--ON
AT.LEAST TWO OCCASIONS. I THINK HE RAN FO,R COUNTY
COMMISSIONER
a ALWAYS AS A DEMOCRAT?
' :
A WELL, I CAN'T BE AASOLUTELV POSITIVE ABOUT THAT.
BUT I KNOW HE RAN AS A DEMOCRAT. HE MAY HAVE RUN AS A
REPUBLICAN
A REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE, DO YOU KNOW OF YOUR
OWN KNOWLEDGE WHETHER MR. CLAYTON EVER RAN FOR PUBLIC
OFFICE AS A REPUBLICAN?
A IT IS MOST CONCEIVABLE. HE HAS BEEN A REPUBLICAN.
A DID YOU EVER RUN AS A REPUBLICAN?
A YES, SIR; I DID. I RAN FOR COUNTY COMMISSIoNER
AND BLACK DEMOCRATS DIDN'T VOTE FOR ME.
MR . LEONARD:
IF THE COURT PLEASE?
MAY I HAVE .JUST A MOMENT,
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ANO TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
(PAUSE. )
MR. LEONARD:
QUESTIONS.
I HAVE NO FURT HER
RED I RECT .
10:00 A.M.
BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS:
a MR. BALLANCE, LET ME ASK .JUST A COUPLE OF
QUESTIONS. YOU HAVE BEEN IN THAT NORTHEASTERN REGION FOR
A LONG TIME AND ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN ATTEMPTING TO GET
ELECTED AND HELP OTHER PEOPLE GET ELECTED AND TO REGISTER
BLACK VOTERS. IS THERE ANY DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE IN
YOUR DEALING WITH BLACK PEOPLE TRYING TO GET THEM TO
REGISTER TO VOTE IN THE ATTITUDES OF THE YOUNGER PEOPLE--
BETWEEN THE YOUNGER PEOPLE AND THE OLDER PEOPLE? IF SO,
WHAT., IS IT?
A I THINK THERE.PROBABLY IS SOME, JUDGE. SOME OF
THE YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE NOT QUITE AS SERIOUS. WHEN I SAY
''YOUNG, '' I MEAN THE LAST FEW YEARS, KIDS COMING OUT OF
HIGH SCHOOL 18 YEARS OLD. THEY HAVE NOT IN MY OPINION
FELT THE BRUNT OF THE PROBLEM AS WELL AS SOME OF THE
OLDER FOLK HAVE. SO THEIR ATTITUDES ARE A LITTLE BIT
D I FFERENT.
a DoES IT MAKE THEM--THE YOUNGER PEOPLE--MORE
WILLING TO REGISTER O.R LESS WILLING?
MS. GUINIER,:
EXAMINAT
WE HAVE NO
ION
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.a571
PItoENIX, ARIZONA
A I THINK THEY ARE WILLING TO REGISTER IF SOMEONE
WILL GO AND TALK TO THEM AND TELL THEM WHAT IT IS ALL
ABOUT AND WHY THEY NEED TO REGISTER AND THE IMPORTANCE
OF IT-_THESE KINDS OF THINGS.
a Do You HAVE--IN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, DO YOU
SENSE ANY GREATER SUCCESS IN YOUR EFFORTS TO REGISTER
ONE OF THE AGE GROUPS RATHER THAN THE OTHER/ OR IS IT
ROUGHLY THE SAI,1E ?
A I SUPPOSE--WELL, HERE IS WHAT YOU RUN INTO, IF
I CAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTION THIS WAY: WHAT WE ARE TRYING
TO.DO NOW IS REGISTER THE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN HIGH
SCHOOL. WE MAY HAVE TO GO DOWN AND HAVE A REGISTRATION
DAY. AND WE WILL TALK TO THEM. WE TRY AND.DO IT IN THE
CHURCH AND THAT KIND OF THING
SO IT IS NOT A REAL PROBLEM DOING IT. THE OLDER
PEOPLE--SOME OF THEIR RELUCTANCE
''
BASED ON THE FACT
THAT THEY CANIT READ AND WRITE. THEY ARE EMBARRASSED BY
THAT, MAYBE. SOME OF IT IS.BASED ON THE MYTHS THAT I
TALKED ABOUT EARLIER. IIWELL, THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF
TH ING I WI LL BE INVOLVED IN. II
a Do YoUNGER PEOPLE HAVE THAT SAME---
A (INTERPOSING) SOME. VERY FEW. I DONIT THINK
THERE ARE MANY. THEY PROBABLY GET IT. IT IS PASSED DOWN
TO THOSE WHO DO EXHIBIT THAT KIND OF TENDENCY. I HAVE
RUN ACROSS A FEW OF THEM-.PEOPLE WHO DID NOT WANT TO
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PARTICIPATE. SOMETIMES THEY WOULD VERBALIZE THEIR
REASONS AND SOMETIMES THEY WOULD NOT.
a Do You KNow oF YouR owN KNoWLEDGE ANYTHING ABOUT
THE PATTERNS OF OUT-MiGRATION OR IN-MIGRATION AMONG THE
POPULATION IN THAT AREA? IS IT LOSING BLACKS? IS IT
GAINING BLACKS IN RELATION TO THE WHITE POPULATION? DO
YOU KNOW?
A WELL, I TH I NK I KNOW SOMETH ING ABOUT I T, .JUDGE .
WHEN r GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHoOL IN 1959, EVERYBODY WENT
TO THE BUS STAT ION . I SAY ''EVERYBODY'I--EVERYBODY FROM
MY,HIGH SCHOOL
a BY THAT YOU MEAN THEY WERE GOING TO---
i
A NEW YORK, BALTIMORE, WASHINGTON, D.C. YOU DONrT
FIND THAT HAPPENING NOT NEARLY TO THE SAME EXTENT NOW.
YOU HAVE SOME PEOPLE--PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO FIND .JOBS.
.. THAT WAS ABOUT,THE TIME, I GUESS, THAT THE
FARMING PROGRAM WAS---
a (INTERPOSING) YOU-DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE
FIGURES THEMSELVES?
A I DON'T KNOW THE FIGURES; NO. I DO NOT.
A LET ME ASK YOU ONE FURTHER'THING. IF I MAY RISK
FOR THE RECORD TAKING SOME JUDICIAL NOTICE OF THE
POLITICAL ATTITUDES IN THAT REGION, I DO TAKE NOTICE OF
THE FACT THAT THERE HAVE BEEN IN THAT REGION WHITE PEOPLE
IN CAMPAIGNS WITHIN [Y MEMORY WHO AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC__
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WHO OPENING HAVE SUPPORTED CANDIDATES IN'MAJOR RACES
WHO ARE IDENTiFIED WITH THE CAUSE OF THE BLACK PERSON AT
WHAT I WOULD ASSUME TO BE SOME RISKS OF THEIR OWN POLITICA
FORTUNE, IS THERE ANYONE OF THAT TYPE NOW TO WHOM A BLACK
CANDIDATE SUCH AS YOURSELF CAN GO AND ASK FOR OPEN
SUPPORT AND GET IT?
WELL, I THINK THIS, JUDGE: THERE ARE SOME WHITES
WHO ARE WILLING TO DO THAT.
HAVE YOU BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING ANY OF THOSE
WHITE LEADERS TO OPENLY SUPPORT YOU?
A GOING BACK TO TI-JIS LAST RACE,,I DONf T BELIEVE
THAT ANYONE CAME OUT OPENLY AND NOTORIOUSLY SUPPORTING ME.:
IN MY RACE FOR THE STATE HOUSE.
A BUT YOU HAD TO GET SOME WHITE VOTES?
I DID GET SOME VOTES. WHEN I SAY IIOPENING AND
NOTORIOUSLY, I' FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WERE SOME WHITES IN
WARRENTON I^/HOM I HAVE KNOWN FOR YEARS AND THEY HAVE KNOWN
ME IN MY WORK AS A LAWYER, AND I KNOW THAT THEY SUPPORTED
ME. BUT THEY DIDNIT GO OUT AND CAMPAIGN DOWN THE STREET.
HAS ANYONE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN NORTHAMPTON COUNTY--
A WHITE POLITICAL LEADER WHO WOULD FEEL FREE IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SETTING OPENLY TO SUPPORT A GOOD BLACK
CANDIDATE IN YOUR OPINION?
A I b/OULD TH INK YES, THERE WOULD BE SOME. I TH INK
THERE WOULD BE VERY FEW. THAT WOULD BE MY OPINION.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFFICE, RAtEtGl{, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
I THINK YOU WILL FIND, JUDGE, THAT THERE ARE
SOME t^/HITES ACROSS THE BOARD IN THE FOLLOT^/ING MAYBE TWO
CATEGORIES: SOME WILL COME TO YOU PRIVATELY AND SAY,
TTFRANK, I SUPPORT YOU, rf AND WI LL GIVE ME A CHECK. I GOT
A COUPLE OF CONTRIBUTIONS. BUT YOU DO NOT FIND VERY
MANY I.JHO ARE WILLING TO GO OUT AND GET ON THE STUMP.
WHEN I SAy "a!' ON THE STUMP, TT I MEAN JUST GO OUT AND SAy
PUBLICLY THAT I'I THINK FRANK BALLENGER IS A CANDIDATE
THAT YOU SHOULD SUPPORT.II MAYBE THAT DAY IS COMING, BUT
IT HASNIT QUITE COME AROUND YET.
, A IT IS BETTER THAN IT WAS?
A YES; IT IS.
A TEN YEARS AGO?
A TEN YEARS? A LOT BETTER THAN IT WAS 20 YEARS
AGO.
A' BUT IT IS STILL, I TAKE I; IN YOUR OPINION, FROM
YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE IMPROBABLE IN THAT REGION THAT A GOOD
BLACK CANDIDATE CAN GAIN THE.OPEN SUPPORT OF A SIGNIFICANT
INFLUENTIAL WHITE POLITICAL FIGURE?
A THAT IS TRUE. AND OF COURSE, IF A WHITE POLITI-
CAL FIGURE IS ALSO A CANDIDATE, THEN HE IS GOING TO BE
VERY RELUCTANT TO RISK HIS OWN POLITICAL---
A (INTERPOSING) ON COURSE, THAT CUTS ACROSS ALL
LINES?
A IT DOES, SIR.
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RArElGt{, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
E X A M I N A T I O N 10:09 A.M.
BY .JUDGE BR I TT :
A IN YOUR PRIMARY CAMPAIGN, DID YOU HAVE ANY
OPPOSITION?
A YES, SIR.
A HOW MANY CANDIDATES WERE THERE IN THE CAMPAIGN?
A WELL, IT IS VERY INTERESTING, JUDGE. A BLACK
M IN I STER NAMED .JOHN D. MOORE F I LED THE DAY BEFORE I D I D.
AND THE .INCUMBENT IN THAT AREA--THE DISTRICT NUMBER CHANGE
t.
WAS GEORGE HUX AND GEORGE FILED. JOT:N MOORE WAS FROM
WELDON IN HALIFAX COUNTY. HE AND I HAd TAL'KED AND AT THE
LAST MINUTE--I DIDNTT KNOW HE WAS INTERESTED. HE HAD
FILED BUT HE LATER WITHDREW.
., UNDER THE RULES OF TTIC PENTY HIS NAME WAS ON THE
BALLOT. BUT HE WAS NOT AN ACTIVE CANDIDATE. SO IT *O'
THREE PEOPLE ON THE BALLOT,-TWO ACTiVE CANDIDATES. THAT
IS IN THE PRIMARY
A DID YOU HAVE OPPOSITION IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?
A YOU DONIT FIND IT UNUSUAL THAT SENATOR MONK
HARRINGTON WOULD OPPOSE ANY CHANGES IN THE CONFIGURATION
OF HIS DISTRICT THAT MIGHT DETER HIS CHANCE FOR REELECTION
DO YOU?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NO, SIR, ESPECIALLY AFTER SERVING ONE TERM DOWN
HERE.
A I TAKE IT YOU WOULD OPPOSE ANY CHANGE IN THE
CONFIGURATION OF YOURS THAT MIGHT INHIBIT YOUR CHANCE TO
GET REELECTED?
A I WOULD BE A LITTLE SELFISH.
E X A M I N A T I O N 10:11 A.M.
BY JUDGE DUPREE:
A YOU HAVE ALREADY TOLD US IN EFFECT THAT A
REPRESENTATIVE OR A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WILL
TAIE A STAND ON THE ISSUE THAT WILL BE, LETIS SAY, NOT
CALCULATED TO DAMAGE HIS CHANCES IN THE NEXT ELECTION?
'i
A SOME WILL TAKE--THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE DOWN THERE
WHO WILL TAKE A STAND KNOWING THAT THERE ARE SOME POLITI_
CAL RISKS. BUT I HAVE A FEELING THAT MORE OUGHT TO DO
THAT., I THINK AL ADAMS WOULD OO TTIAT.
BUT I THrNr mOCr PEOPLE--REALLY, t THINK I WOULD
DO THAT BECAUSE I HAVE A LAI.V^PRACTICE. IF I DONIT GET
REELECTED I HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO DO. I THINK MORE
POLITICIANS REALLY OUGHT NOT TO BE QUITE AS SENSITIVE ABOU
BEING REELECTED AS THEY ARE. BUT IT IS A FACTOR THAT THEY
ARE VERY SENSITIVE.
A I KNOW MR. HUX IS AFFILIATED WITH THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY, SO I ASSUME THAT YOU ARE TOO?
A YES.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. i,lAlN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A BUT YOU ONCE RAN AS A REPUBLICAN?
A YES, S IR.
a couNTY coMMISSION?
A COUNTY COMMISSIONER OF WARREN COUNTY.
a DID YOU WIN?
A I SOON CHANGED MY AFFILIATION.
A YOU LEARNED REAL FAST; DIDNIT YOU?
A I STARTED OUT AS A DEMOCRAT; I CHANGED TO A
REPUBLICAN. I CHANGED BACK BECAUSE I REALITED THAT THE
PEOPLE I WAS GOING TO TO ASK TO VOTE FOR ME WERE
PREDOM]NANTLY DEMOCRAT I C.
A IS IT SAFE TO ASSUME, THEN, THAT IF YOU RAN NOW,
ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN ELECTED, IF YOU SHOULD SWITCH ONE
MORE TIME, WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER YOUR CHANCES AT
REELECTION AS A REPUBLICAN IN THAT DISTRICT AS PRESENTLY
CON ST I TUTED
A I COULD GET REELECTED. I AM BEING A LITTLE
SELFISH AGAIN. BUT I COULD fROBABLY GET REELECTED NOW.
BUT I WOULDN'T TAKE A CHANCE ON THAT.
JUDGE DUPREE:
MR. LEONARD:
I F THE COURT PLEASE.
THAT IS INTERESTING.
I.JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION,
R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 10:12 A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DO YOU KNOW, REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE, WHETHER
SENATOR HARRINGTON OPENLY SUPPORTED REPRESENTATIVE CREESY?
A REPRESENTATiVE CREESY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION
HAD REPUBLICAN OPPOSITION. AND AS I RECALL, THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY SUPPORTED HIM. THAT INCLUDED SENATOR
HAR R I NGTON
A DID SENATOR HARRINGTON OPEN SUPPORT CREESY IN THE
PRIMARY?
A THAT I CANNOT ANSWER. I DONIT KNOW.
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : DO YOU HAVE ANY QUE ST I ON S
PROMPTED BY OUR INQUIRIES,FROM THE BENCH?
:
MS. GUINIER:' NONE, SIR.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THANK YOU, MR . BALLANCE .
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
(WITNESS EXCUSED. )
MS. WINNER: AT THIS POINT PLAINTIFFS
HAVE NO MORE WITNESSES. BUT WE HAVE SOME RECORD KEEPING
MATTERS. THE PLAINTIFFS OFFER THREE EXHIBITS WHICH HAVE
NOT YET BEEN INTRODUCED WHICH I UNDERSTAND THERE IS NO
oBJECT r ON. THAT r S NUMBER 55 , 7 5 (A) AND 84.
JUDGE PH I LLI PS : IS COUNSEL CORRECT THAT
THERE ARE NO OB.JECTIONS TO THE EXHIBITS?
MR. LEONARD:
NO OB.JECT I ON TO 55 .
G I VE ME .JUST ONE M I NUTE .
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PF|oENIX, ARIZONA
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: THOSE THREE EXHIBITS ARE
ADM I TTED W I THOUT OB.J ECT I ON.
MS. WINNER:
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 55,
75(A) AND 84 WERE RECEIVED
IN EVIDENCE. )
ON THE LIST THAT THE COURT
GAVE ME YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, i HAD TWO QUESTIONS. ONE
WAS THAT SHE HAS INDICATED THAT 2 THROUGH 10 ARE ADMITTED.
I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THE RECORD WAS CLEAR THAT THOSE
WEREBoTH(A)AND(B),THATIS,THEREwASAMAPANDA..
LE.GEND TO THE MAP THAT IS SEPARATE. ...
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF THE RECORD DOES NOT
REFLECT, LET IT NOW REFLECT THE FACT THAT THOSE EXHIBITS
DO INCLUDE ALL OF THE PARTS IDENTIFIED BY COUNSEL.
MS. WINNER: AND SHE HAS INDICATED EXHI
BIT.53. IT IS MY RECO.LLECTION rnAr, IN FACT, ONLY 53(C),
(H) AND (.J) WERE ADMITTED AND THAT THE REST OF THE PARTS
WERE, IN FACT, NOT ADMITTED.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: THOSE WERE THE EXHIBITS
W I TH SOI.,IE OF THE POL I T I CAL---
MS. I^,INNER: (INTERPOSING) YES, SIR.
LECT I ON.
THE CLERK: THEY ARE 53(c), tH) AND
(.J).
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
. 779.3619 876.157'.1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
r) t't !-)or.)
JUDGE PHILLiPS: YOUR RECORDS DO REFLECT
MADAM CLERK, THAT IT IS 53<C), (H) AND (J) ONLY?
THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS OF THE COMPLAINT
WHiCH HAVE BEEN ADMITTED, .AND ANSWERS THAT HAVE BEEN AD-
MITTED INTO EVIDENCE. I CAN READ THE PARAGRAPH NUMBERS
IF THAT I^IOULD BE HELPFUL.
IT IS NINE THROUGH L3; 16, 24 THROUGH 50; t2
TO 33; 8!, 82. THOSE ARE THE ORiGINAL COMPLAINTS, AND
PARAGRAPHS 88, 89 AND 90 OF THE SUPPLEMENT.TO THE COM-
PLIrI NT.
THE CLERK:
MS. WINNER:
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
MS. WINNER:
SWERS.
.. ,.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
PLEADINGS ARE ADMITTED INTO
COUNSEL?
YES, S I R.
THERE ARE ON PAGE 76 OF
I S THAT ALL?
THAT I S ALL FROM THE AN-
, AND THOSE BORTIONS OF THE
EVIDENCE AS IDENTIFIED BY
MS. WI.NNER: THERE ARE DEPOSITIONS
WHICH HAVE BEEN DESIGNATED ON PAGES 76 AND 76(4) OF THE
PRE-TRIAL ORDER, AND PLAINTIFFS WISI.{ TO OFFER THE DESIG-
NATED PORTIONS. OF THE DEPOSITIONS OF WI.LLIAM HALE FROM
NOVEMBER r81 AND MAY '82i THE DEPOSITION OF TERRENCE
SULLIVAN FROM N0VEMBER r81 AND MAY '82; THE DEPOSITI0N
OF DANIEL LONG FROM MAY I82 AND THE DEPOSITION OF .JERRY
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
8'.7 4
COHEN FROM MAY I 82 AND THE DEPOSITION OF SENATOR
WILLIAM MILLS FROM FEBRUARY OF 198]. THOSE DEPOSITIONS
HAVE ALL BEEN FILED. I DO HAVE COPIES OF THEM FOR THE
COURT--E):TRA COPIES OF THEM FOR THE COURT.WHICH I CAN
PUT TOGETHER DURING THE BREAK AND HAND UP.
JUDGE BRITT:
IN THE PRE.TRIAL ORDER.
I DONIT SEE ANY OBJECTION
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, THERE
IS AN ISSUE. WE WANT IHE WHOLE DEPOSITION IN. I THINK
THE RULES PROVIDE FOR THAT UNDER RULE 32.\F SHE OFFERS
PART OF IT. I BELIEVE THE RULE:' SAYS T,I.1AT THE OPPOSING
PARTY CAN ASK THAT THE ENTIRE DEPOSITION CAN BE ADMITTED.
IN ANY EVENT, WE WANT THE WHOLE DEPOSITION TN. SHE HAS
OFFERED ONLY PARTS OF IT.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: I.JHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT,
COUN,SEL?
MS. WTNNER: I OPPOSE THAT. THE RULE
ALLOWS OPPOSING COUNSEL TO PU'I' IN BOTH PIECES OF THE
DEPOSITION THAT ARE NOT ON THE SAME TOPIC. OTHERWISE,
THOSE DEPOSITIONS AS TO THIS CASE ARE HEARSAY AI'ID ARE
NOT ADMISSIBLE. I WOULD NOT OPPOSE THEIR PUTTING IN ANY
PIECES THAT RELATE TO THE SAME TOPIC.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, I HAVE NOT
LOOKED AT THAT RULE IN A WHI[E BUT IT IS MY RECOLLECTION
THAT COUNSEL IS CORRECT, THAT THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
g'l5
THE DEPOSITION OFFERED RUNS ONLY TO THOSE PORTIONS
NEEDED TO CLARIFY OR TO VERIFY THE SAME TOPIC.
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, MY
EXPERIEI.ICE TELLS ME THERE ARE TIMES h,HEN:IN THESE SITUA-
TIONS WE LOSE PART OF THE RECORD. I THINK THE COURT HAS
BEEN EXTREMELY LIBERAL WITH THE PLAINTIFF WITH RESPECT TO
THE INTRODUCTION OF TESTIMONY. I CANIT BELIEVE THERE IS
ANYTHiNG IN THOSE DEPOSITIONS THAT IS GOING TO PREJUDICE
THE PLAINTIFFIS CASE.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : LET I S HOLD THAT S I NCE WE
HAVE GOT SOME PROBLEM ABOUT IT AND
'A6.WILL,
TALK ABOUT IT
DURING OUR RECESS AND GET A RULING ON THAT. WE WILL
TAKE ALL THE DEPOSITIONS THAT YOU HAVE \,UST IDENTIFIED.
MS. WINNER: THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT
I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER INTO EVIDENCE AT THIS TIME IS
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 86 WHICH WAS TI-IE LETTER TO THE JUSTIC
DEPARTMENT FROM R.B. BULLOCK WHICH MR. SPEARMAN IDENTIFIE
WHEN HE WAS ON THE STAND.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: THERE ANY OB.JECTION
TO THAT?
I.4R. LEONARD: I I M SORRY. THAT ONE
PASSED ME BY. I GUESS WE DONIT KNOW WHAT THAT IS.
MS. WINNER: I DONIT BELIEVE I HAVE
COPY. I BELIEVE THE CLERK HAS THE ONLY COPY.
MR. LEONABD: WE HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO
IS
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFF|CE, RATE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
8'/ €
THAT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
MS. WINNER:
B I TS AND THE ST I PULAT I ONS ARE
EVIDENCE. IN THAT CASE, THE
EVI DENCE.
THAT EXHIBIT IS ADMITTED
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 86 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
I TAKE IT THAT THE EXHI-
ALREADY CONSIDERED AS IN
PLAINTIFFS HAVE NO FURTHER
AT 10:20 A.M.)
I F THE COURT PLEASE, I
MAKE A MOTION FOR JUDGMENT
BASED ON THE PLAINTIFFS EVI-
THAT MOTION IS DENIED.
THE DEFENSE FOR THE REST
WOULD LIKE
IN FAVOR OF
DEN CE .
(PTITINTIFFS REST
MR. LEONARD:
FIRST OF ALL TO
THE DEFENDANTS
L,UDGE PHi LL I PS :
MR. LEONAR.D :
OF THE DAY HAS ONLY FOUR WI TNESSES AVAI LABLE: DR. .JOHN
SANDERS IS HERE. LESLIE BEVACQUA. AND MARK LANIER, AND
WE ARE GOING TO CALL THIS AFTERNOON SHERIFF ELLIS FROM
EDGECOMBE COUNTY AS A REBUTTAL WITNESS TO SOME OF THE
TESTIMONY OF FRED BELFIELD OF YESTERDAY.
I DONIT THINK, IF THE COURT PLEASE, THAT WE
ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL DAY. THERE .JUST WASNIT ANY WAY
THAT WE COULD GET ANY OTHER WITNESSES TOGETHER FOR YOU
TODAY
F P. O. Bor 2lt6ll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
it
OPENING S T A T E M E.I{ T 10:21 A.M.
MR. LEONARD: THE COURT HAS ASKED THAT
I COMMENT BRIEFLY ON THE EVIDENCE THAT JS GOING TO BE
OFFERED BY THE DEFENSE AND I WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT A
BIT IN THE PER.SPECTIVE OF WHAT I THINK THE I SSUES ARE
AS.WELL AS WHAT THE TESTIMONY WILL SHOW.
I WOULD ALSO AT THIS POINT LIKE TO MAKE A
REQUEST FORMALLY THAT AFTER THE CASE'CLOSES--I ASSUME
THE COURT WILL ASK COUNSEL TO SUBMIT WRT.TTEN PROPOSED
FINDINGS OF FACT. I WOULD LIKE TO FORMALLY REQUEST THAT
AT SOME TIME PRIOR TO THE COURTIS DECISION THAT IT GRANT
NOT MORE THAN IN OUR CASE AN HOUR AND A HALF OF ORAL
ARGUMENT. I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD INCLUDE ANY QUESTIONS
THE COURT MIGHT HAVE. I MAKE THAT REqUEST BECAUSE THIS
REAL.LY IS A CASE OF FIRST IMPRES"O*" CERTAINLY WITH
RESPECT TO A STATE LEGISLATION, AND IT IS GOING TO HAVE
FAR-REACHING EFFECTS. THERE WILL, t AM SURE, BE QUESTION
WITH RESPECT TO THE INTERPRETATION OF SECTION TWO IN THE
SENATE REPORT AND OTHER CONSIDERATIONS THAT THE COURT
MIGHT WANT TO PROBE THE THOUGHTS OF COUNSEL ON.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, I CAN ASSURE
YOU THAT, NOT HAVING TALKED TO MY COLLEAGUES AT ALL, BUT
I WANT TO HEAR ANY LIGHT THAT CAN BE SHED AND THAT I WILL
BE IN ATTENDAI{CE. I _WANT TO HEAR THE ENLIGHTENMENT, SO
F P. O. ld Itlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YOU CAN COUNT ON A CHANCE BOTH TO BRIEF IT AND TO MAKE
SOME ORAL ARGUMENTS I'N SUPPORT OF THE BRIEF.
MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. LET ME .JUST
BRIEFLY SAY THAT I THINK THAT THERE ARE THREE IMPORTANT
CONSIDERATIONS THAT THE COURT COULD TRY TO KEEP IN MIND
AS THE DEFENSE DEVELOPS ITS PRESENTATION.
FIRST OF ALL, AS I HAVE SAID ONE TIME EARLIER
IN THE PROCEEDINGS, THE STATE LEGISLATURE IS iNDEED A
CO-EQUAL BRANCH IN OUR FEDERAL SYSTEM. THIS IS NOT THE
ACTION OF A STATE AGENCY. IT IS NOT THE ACTION OF A
SINGLE STATE EMPLOYEE. IT IS, INDEED,.THE OFFICIAL AND
FORMAL ACTION OF ONE OF THE SIX CO-EQUAL BRANCHES OF
GOVERNMENT IN OUR FEDERAL SYSTEM.
SECONDLY, THE.-AS I MENTIONED, IT IS A CASE
OF FIRST IMPRESSION,..
.. THIRDLY, AS ONE TRIES iO FATHOM THE INTENT OF
CONGRESS, MOST CERTA'*'-'IT HAD EVERY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGH
TO ENACT SECTION TWO. IT FOIJGHT THE BATTLES OF WHETHER
OR NOT T}JIS KIND OF LEGISLATION WAS CONSTITUTIONAL AND
THOSE ISSUES WERE DECIDED AND HAVE BEEN DECIDED FOR SOME
YEARS BY THE SUPREME COURT.
BUT AS WE LOOK AT THE SITUATION OF WHAT THE
CONGRESS FACED IN ENACTING THE,NEW LITNGUAGE IN SECTION
TWO, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO VIEW THE FACTS OF THIS
CASE IN LIGHT OF WHAT_THE CONGRESS HAD BEFORE IT, MORE
Fl P. O. eor 2.lct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
r-) |)l r)
o /L'
SPECIFICALLY, IT WAS LOOKING AT THE FACTS IN THE CITY
OF MOBILE, ALABAMA, THREE MEMBER COMMISSION SITUATION.
LEGI SLATURES, I THINK ALL T'HREE MEMBERS OF
THIS COURT KNOW, TEND TO REACT TO THE EXTREME SITUATIONS
THAT ARE BROUGHT BEFORE THEM SO THAT THEY ENACT LEGIS-
LATION IN THE CONTEXT OF THOSE EXTREMES, NOT ALWAYS AND.
MANY TIMES, IN FACT, FAILING TO RECOGNIZE THAT WITHIN
THE AMBITS OF THAT LEGISLATION WILL BE BROUGHT IN A SITUA
TION THAT ARE NOT NEARLY AS AGREGIOUS AS WHAT THE LEGIS-
LATION ITSELF MAY HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY.
NOW, THE COURT KNOI.JS FULL WFLL THAT THERE IS
NO CASE WHICH SAYS THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTING AND
MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS ARE OF THEMSELVES PER SE UNCONSTI-
TUTIONAL. THERE ARE SOME VERY SOUND REASONS FOR THAT.
HISTORICALLY, AS WE ALL KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN THOSE PEOPL
MOST.'OF THEM REFORMERS, WHO HAVE
'O"OIGNED
AGAINST THE
coNcEPT OF GHETTOIZING pOLITICAL cROUpS, OF WARD polITICS,
IF YOU PLEASE.
THE TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE FROM DR. SANDERS
AND MR. FARRELL IS GOING TO SHOW THAT TO A GREAT EXTENT
THAT WAS A REASON FOR THE NORTH CAROLINIANS, TF YOU
PLEASE-.NOT JUST THE LEGISLATURE, BUT THE CITIZENS OF
THIS STATE.-TO WANT TO AVOID THE SO-CALLED ROTTENBOROUGH
TYPE OF GOVERNMENT WHERE WHAT I DO REALLY AS A MEMBER OF
THE LEGISLATURE REPRE_SENTING A SINGLE DISTRICT IS LOG ROL
F t. O. lor 2'16
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ALL SESSION LONG, AND IF I CAN FIND IN THIS SITUATION
60 OTHER PEOPLE TO LOG ROLL THEN WE WILL LOG ROLL OVER
THE OTHER 59. THE HISTORY OF THE STATE IS.-AND THESE
WERE NOT RACIAL CONSIDERATIONS. THERE WERE GOOD GOVERN-
MENT CONSIDERATIONS. ;INDEED, THE COURT WELL KNOWS THAT
THAT ARGUMENT HAS BEEN GOING ON. IT APPEARS EVERY ONCE
IN A WHILE IN ONE OF THESE CASES AND IT IS GOING TO CON.
TINUE TO GO ON. I DARE SAY WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER WAVE OF
IT AGAIN IN ANOTHER TEN YEARS.BECAUSE AS WE ALL WELL KNOW,
THESE I SSUES EBB AND FLOW AI.iD THERE I S REALLY NOTHING NEW
1*.roaITICS.
IT JUST HAS A NEW NAME OR A NEW FACE OR A
NEW STYLE.
MR. FARRELLIS TESTIMONY TIED IN WITH DR.
SANDERSI IS IMPORTANT TO THE FACTS IN THIS CASE BECAUSE
IT ESTABLISHES THE HISTORY OF COUNTIES. I REALiZE IT IS
UNFORTUNATE THAT WE HAVE TO PROVI;E THESE'KTNDS OF WIT-
NESSES BECAUSE ALL THRE; MEMBERS OF THIS COURT, I AM CER.
TAIN, KNOW HISTORY,BUT FOR TTIE RECORD IT MUST BE OFFERED
THAT THE CONCEPT OF THE COUNTIES AS THE BASIC OPERATING
UNITS OF THE STATE TO DELIVER SERVICES THAT THE STATE
WANTED TO DELIVER TO IT5 PEOPLE PRE-DATES ANYONEIS CONCEPT
OF ANY RACIALLY MCTIVATED PURPOSE.
THAT MEANING STILL. EXISTS TODAY. INDEED, MR.
FARRELL WILL TESTIFY IF WE DIDN'T HAVE COUNTIES WE WOULD
HAVE TO CREATE SOMETHING LIKE THEM IN ORDER TO DELIVER
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. IAA|N OFF|CE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
83i
THE SERVICES THAT THE STATE WANT6. DELIVERED TO THE
PEOPLE.
THE TESTIMONY OF' THE PLAINTIFF:' S WITNESSES IN
THIS CASE I5 DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH. IT IS, BY THE AD-
MISSION OF THEIR WITNESSES IN SOME CASES, MYTHSz PERCEP-
TIONS AND THE STATE WOULD NOT CONTEND FOR A MINUTE THAT
THOSE PERCEPTIONS ARE NOT THERE. . WHAT THE STATE HAS DONE
ALREADY WITH ONE WITI..IESS AND WILL DO WITH OTHERS IS TO
ATTEMPT TO SHOW THAT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS POSSTBLE
FOR GOVERNMENT TO OVERCOME THESE LINGERING RESIDUAL EF.
FECTS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS ATTEMPTED TO DO A JOB OF
APPROACHING AND APPEALING TO VOTERS, BLACK AND WHITE.
YOU HEARD THE TESTIMONY OF MR. SPEARMAN AND
THE RESULTS THAT HAVE COME FROM THAT. THAT THEME WILL
BE CARRIED OUT THROUGHOUT OUR WITNESSES. I THINK BOTH
BLACK I^JITNESSES AND WHITE WITNTSSTS WILL TESTIFY THAT
THERE IS AN ATTEMPT TO BRING ALL PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF
THEIR RACE INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS, TO SEEK THEIR SUP-
PORT, AND THAT WHITE CANDIDATES SEEK THE SUPPORT OF BLACK
PEOPLE AND THAT BLACK CANDIDATES IN THESE MULTI-MEMBER
MA.JORITY WHITE DISTRICTS DO INDEED SEEK THE SUPPORT OF
THEIR WHITE CONSTITUENCY IN THOSE DISTRICTS AND THOSE
AREAS AND, INDEED, THAT THIS RESULTS IN SOMETHING THAT IS
CALLED COALITION POLITICS WHERE TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE
A NATION AND A PEOPLE AND A POLITICAL STRUCTURE WHO BELIE
F P, O. lor 2llGl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
dUa
IN CONSENSUS--WHICH I GUESS'WE HAVE TO BECAUSE THAT IS
ANOTHER TERM FOR MAJORITY RULE--THAT THERE IS AN ATTEMPT
TO BRING BLACKS AND WHITES TOGETHER IN ORDER TO FORM A
POLICITCAL CONSENSUS. THAT, IN FACT, IS WORKING IN THE
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.
YOU WILL HEAR THE MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL AS-
SEMBLY TESTIFY TO THAT. YOU ARE GOING TO HEAR FROM FOUR
BLACK WITNESSES, ALL OF WHOM ARE LEADERS--BLACK LEADERS
IN THEIR COMMUNITIES-; THEY ARE NOT ONLY TECHNICALLY
CLIENTS OF THE PLI'.INTIFF'; THEY ARE INDEED AcTIVE MEMBERS
OF. BLACK ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING NAACP' THEY I.JILL DIS.
AGREE WITH THE PLAINTI FFS I, POSITION WITH RESPECT TO
SINGLE MEMBER DiSTRICTS. AND WILL TESTIFY 'THAT THE RESULT
IN SOME CASES OF SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTING IS AS WE HAVE
HEARD FROM SOME OF PLAiNTIFFS' OWN WITNESSES A TENDENCY
TO BE CONCERNED ONLY WITH THE TUTLNESTS IN THAT SMALL
GEOGRAPHIC AREA: THE GHETTOIZING, THE ROTTENBOROUGH
CONCEPT. ,I AI4 US ING IIROTTENBOROUGHII IN A DENIGRATING
SENSE, BUT IN THE SENSE OF A SMALL, CONSTRICTED AREA WHOS
INTERESTS ARE ALL ITS OWN AND IT HAS NO INTERESTS BEYOND
THAT AREA. i
THE COURT WiLL. HEAR FROM THE CHAIRMEN--THE
SENATE AND HOUSE CHAIRMEN OF THE RESPECTIVE DISTRICTING
COMMITTEES. THE COURT IS GOING TO HEAR OF THE AGONY THAT
THIS LEGISLATURE WENT THROUGH BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT
F P. O. lor 2araB
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
uri
HAD TO ENGAGE LITERALLY IN TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT
REDISTRICTINGS, BOTH WITH RESPECT TO THE CONGRESSIONAL
WHICH THEY HAD UP AT THE SAME TIME.WHICH IS NOT PART OF
THIS CASE, AND THE LEGISLATIVE. THE FIRST REDISTRICTING
IT HAD KIND OF A PARTNERSHIP IN THE 40 COVERED COUNTIES
WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND, INDEED, THE COURT WILL
HEAR ABOUT THE DOG AND PONY SHOW THAT WENT FROM RALEIGH
TO WASHINGTON AND BACK AND FORTH AND BACK AND FORTH, AT-
TEI\.IPTING TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT; IS THTS PLAN WHiCH
WE PASSED FOR THOSE 4O COUNTIES ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?
WELL, NOTITTS NOT BECAUSE WE WANT yOU TO DO
THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER THING. BACK TO RALEIGH, A NEW
ENACTMENT BY THE LEGISLATURE, RUN THAT UP TO WASHINGTON.
NOW, THAT MAY NOT SOUND LIKE A BIG PROBLEM EXCEPT WHILE
YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF THE 40 COVERED COUNTIES,
your.vE Gor EVER' LEGISLAT.R IN rrl 60 uNoovERED couNTIES
VERY, VERY DEEPLY CONCERNED. REDISTRICTING AND REAPPOR-
TIONMENT IS AN AGONIZING UOB EOR,.A:LEGISLATURE ANYWAY.
OPEN. THERE I^JERE NO SECRET MEETINGS. THERE WERE NO
DEALS CUT UNDER THE TABLE. " IT WAS OPEN IN THE EJEST TRA-
DITION,OF A LEGISLATURE--THE HIGHEST TRADITION.
SOMEWHERE IN EARLY 1982--THE SPRING OF I82--
THE ISSIJE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS SUDDENL
BECAME A GLOWING ISSUE, A GENERAL ISSUE. IT HAD BEEN AN
Ff P. O, Au 2'tcs
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
O o:t
ISSL,E WITH RESPECT TO THE 40 COVERED COUNTIES. IT wAS
PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WI TH THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
THE COURT IS GOING TO HEAR TESTIMONY THAT REPRESENTATIVE
DAN BLUE, A BLACK MEMBER OF THIS LEGISLATURE, WAS A PART
OF THAT DOG AND PONY SHOW THAT WENT TO WASHINGTON AND
THAT HE FOUGHT FOR MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS,.EVEN IN THE
COVERED COUNTI ES.
SUDDENLY EARLY IN 1982--IN FACT, I AM NOT SO
SURE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HEAR THAT SUDDENLY IN 1982
THIS BECAME A GREAT ISSUE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOU ARE
GOiNG TO HEAR THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE DISTRICTING
COMMITTEE TESTIFY THAT HE HAS KNOWN THE MAIN PLAINTIFF
IN THIS CASE, RALPH GINGLES, ALL GINGLES'' LIFE; THAT HE
IS A PERSONAL FRIEND OF GINGLESI FATHER; THAT THE SENATOR
HAS SERVED IN THE SENATE FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS AND NOT ONCE
DID .YOUNG MR. GINGLES EVER EVEN CbTqIIUNICATE WITH SENATOR
MARSHAL RAUSH ABOUT TFTE ISSUE.
SO, INDEED, AN I}4PORTANT PART OF THE STATEIS
TESTIMONY WILL BE THAT IF THIS WAS SUCH A BURNING ISSUE
WHERE WERE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIGHTING THE FIRES? IS
IT NOT A FACT OF LIFE, JUDICIAL AS WELL AS OTHERWISE,
THAT LEGISLATORS ACT TO A GREAT DEGREE UPON WHAT THEIR
CONSTITUENTS ARE COMMUNICATING?
FINALLY, THE LAST TWO WITNESS: REPRESENTATIVE
AL ADAMS IS GOING TO TESTIFY ABOUT THE FACTS OF LIFE WITH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OuJ
RESPECT TO REDISTRICTING IN THE 1982 SESSION OF THE
LEGISLATURE AND I4HO STOOD WHERE AND THE EFFORTS THAT
WERE MADE AND THE FACT THAT THEF:E W/iS ANYTHING BUT A
CONSENSUS IF, INDEED, THEFIE WAS EVEN ENOUGH INTEREST FOR
ONE TO BE ABLE TO EVEN CLAIM THAT YOU COULD FORM A CON-
SENSUS, BUT THAT CERTAINLY THERE WERE PROMINENT BLACKS IN
THIS STATE wHo DID Nor wAtrT THEN AND Do Nor WANT Now
SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE UNCOVERED COUNTIES.
THERE ARE SOME OTHER ISSUES. THERE IS A
QUESTION AS TO THE PRIMARY SYSTEM. WE ARE GOING TO PUT
A YOUNG MAN ON THE STAND WHO STUDIED I.T AND WROTE AN AR-
TICLE ABOUT IT. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BLACK WHO HAS RUN
FOR THE STATE LEGISLATURE WHO HAS EVER BEEN DEFEATED BE-
CAUSE OF THE .SECOND PRIMARY SYSTEM.
NOW, YOU ARE ALSO GOING TO HEAR REPRESENTATIVE
ADAM.S TESTIFY ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE AND REPRESENTATIVE
SPAULDING INTRODUCED LEGISLATION TO ATTEMPT TO ELIMINATE
THAT, OR TO AT LEAST SEVERELY RESTRICT ITS APPLICATION.
THE TESTIMONY WILL BE INTERESTING AS TO WHY THAT LEGIS.
LATION COULD NOT PASS.
THE COURT IS GOING TO HEAR FROM REPRESENTATIVE
ADAMS THAT ANOTHER BLACK MEMBER OF THE NORTH CAROLINA
HOUSE V./ANTED TO SINGLE-MEMBER EVERYBODY I S COUNTY BUT HI S
OWN. HE DID NOT WANT HIS OWN COUNTY SINGLE-MEMBER, BUT
llE THoucHT IT wAS A GOOD IDEA FoR EVERYBODY ELSE:--
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 976.457]|
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
\) r",
L)LIL
HARDLY A CLEARCUT, UI{EQUIVOCAL POSITION AS TO WHAT
BLACK POLITICAL LEADERS THOUGHT ABOUT SiNGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS.
FINALLY, THE STATE WILL BRING DR. TOM HOFELLER
I^/HO HAS BEEN IN THIS BI.TTLE OF DISTRICTING SINCE THE
1960'S IN CALIFORNIA AND HAS HIMSELF DRAWN DISTRICTING
PLI.NS IN ANY NUMBER OF STATES, HAS TESTIFIED BEFORE
NUMEROUS FEDERAL COURTS, WHO IS GOING TO DISAGREE WITH
DR. GROFMAN. NOW, HE IS NOT GoING TO DISAGREE WITH DR.
GROFMANIS DATA OR HIS QUANTITATIVE APPROACH TO PULLING
NUMBERS TOGETHER. DR. HOFELLER IS GOING TO TESTIFY WITH
RESPECT TO THE CONCLUSIOI.IS THAT HE DRAWS FROM DR. GROFMAN'
DATA IN ADDITION TO THE POLITICAL FACTS OF REDISTRICTING
NOT ONLY IN NORTH CAROLINA BUT ALSO IN STATE LEGISLATURES
GENERALLY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.
.. JUDGE PHILLI PS :
'N'
COURT WI LL TAKE A
RECESS UNTIL 11:OO OtCLOCK.
(rnE PROCEEDING WAS RECESSED AT 10:42 A.M., TO
RECONVEI.TE AT l1:00 A.M., THI S SAME DAy. )
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FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 1i:00 A.M.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: TWO F,RELIMINARY MITTTERS,
COUNSEL: ONE PURELY HOUSEKEEPING. WE WILL RECESS FOR
ONLY Al'i HouR FoR LUNCH ToDAy. wE t.tl LL RECESS AT L2i3o
AND COME BACK AT 1:]0.
THE SECOND THING, ON THE OBJECTION TO THE
INTRODUCTION OF THE DEPOSiTION PORTIONS WITHOUT INTRO-
DUCTION OF THE WHOLE, DO I UNDERSTAND COUNSEL FOR THE
PLAINTIFFS TO SAY THAT WERE COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS
.TO.
OFFER THE REMAINING PARTS UNDER THE RUL: THAT YOU
WOULD HAVE AN OBJECTION ON HEARSAY GROUNDS?
MS. WI NT.iER: YES, SIR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I THINK THAT IS GOING TO
REQUIRE US TO TAKE A MORE CAREFUL LOOK AT THE DEPOSITION
THAN WE HAVE TAKEN. IT WOULD BE HELPFLJL IF YOU WOULD
IDENTIFY-.AND YOU MAY DO THIS IN WRITING IF YOU CARE TO
DO SO--THOSE POP.T IONS THAT I ASSUME MR. LEONARD WI LL AT.
TEMPT TO OFFER ON HIS OWN AFTER WHICH YOU WOULD HAVE A
HEARSAY OBJECTION.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU HAVE MOVED TO INTRO-
DUCE PART oF THE DEPOSITIOI"I. ' UNDER THE RULE, MR. LEONARD
IS ENTITLED TO HAVE YOU INTRODUCE ANY PORTIONS THAT, IN
FAI'RNESS, OUGHT TO BE INTRODUCED TO PUT YOURS IN CONTEXT.
BEYOND THAT, HE IS ENTITLED AS ANYBODY IS, TO INTRODUCE
PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Oor ?tlC3
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B.,c
THE REST OF IT SUBJECT TO OBJECTIONS. I TAKE iT THAT
HE I,JOULD SAY FIRST-.IS SAYING FIRST--THAT THE WHOLE IS
NEEDED TO BRING YOURS INTO CONTEXT AND UNDER THAT HE
HAS THE RIGHT TO HAVE IT INTRODUCED.
FAILING THAT, HE I^JOULD OFFER IT oN HIS oWN,
THAT IS, THE REMAINING PARTS AND TO THAT LATTER YOU SAY
YOt' WOULD HAVE HEARSAY OBJECTIONS?
MS. WINNER: MY READING OF RULE 32 IS
NOT THAT ANY PARTY CAN PUT IN ALt OF ANY DEPOSITION,BUT
DEPOSITIONS MAY ONLY BE PUT IN IN THREE INSTANCES. ONE
,.' YOU ARE IMPEACHING A WITNESS. ONE I S THAT THE WITNESS
IS UNAVAILABLE BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD OR MORE THAN 1OO
MILES AWAY, AND THE THTRD IS THAT THE DEPOSITION IS OF
A PARTY OR ANYONE WHO AT THE TIME OF THE DEPOSITION WAS
AN OFFICER OR MANAGING AGENT OF THE OPPOSING PARTY.
.' wELL, THE DEPosITIoNs-on.THE'LEGISLATIVE sTAFF
CERTAINLY AP.E NOT OPPOSING. PARTIES OF THE STATE NOR ARE
THEY AGENTS OF THE OPPOSING PARTIES OF THE STATE. THEY
ARE AVAILABLE, THEY ARE HERE, THEY ARE UNDER SUBPOENA
AND THEY ARE NOT FROM THE POINT OF THE STATE ADMISSIBLE
UNDER--THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED TO USE THE DEPOSITIONS UNDER
THE RULE.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
YOU BECAUSE-.-
THEY ARE PEF..MI SS I BLE BY
MS. WINNER: IN FACT, .JERRY COHEN---
F P. O. &r 2'l{B
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
{) i. j
()t i;
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
MS. WINNER:
OF THE STATE-.THAT IS, HE WAS
DRAFTiNG FOR THE LEGISLATURE.
IS AN OPPOSING PARTY?
HE IS A MANAGING AGENT
THE HEAD OF THE BILL
.J UDGE BR I TT : IF THAT INTERPRETATION
I S CORRECT, WHY I S THE LAST PHRASE OF PARAGRAPH FOUR
NECESSARY, MS. WINNER, WHERE I T SAYS, IIAND ANY PARTY
MAY INTRODUCE ANY OTHER PARTSII? HE COULD ALREADY HAVE
DONE IT UNDER THOSE PORTIONS OF THE RULES THAT YOU.JUST
CITED. PARAGRAPH FOUR, IT SEEMS TO ME, SETS FORTH A
DIFFERENT CRiTERIA BY SAYING WHERE YOU ONLY OFFER PART
oF IT, TWO THINGS COME INTO pLAy. ONE OF THEM IS HE CAN
REQUIRE YOt' TO INTRODUCE ANY PARTS THAT IN FAIRNESS OUGHT
TO BE CONSIDERED AND SECOND, ANY PARTY--HIM OR I ASSUME
IF WE HAD THIRD PARTIES--COULD INTRODUCE THE REST OF IT.
I DON'T KNOW. I,/E HAVE A LAW CI-CNT LOOKING INTO IT.
MS. WINNER: I WILL MAKE AN AGREEMENT
WITH THE COURT TO OVER THE I..IEEKEND LOOK AT THESE DEPOSI-
TIONS MORE CAREFULLY AND DECIDE WHETHER I, IN FACT, HAVE
ANY OBJECTION TO THE REST OF THEM.
LJUDGE PHILLIPS: I h'AS GOING TO SUGGEST
THAT MAYBE THE BEST SOLUTION WOULD BE TO TAKE A GOOD
CAREFUL LOOK AND SEE IF THERE REALLY IS ANY LIKELTHOOD
OF PREJUDICE IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT THERE IS NOT GOING
TO BE A .JURY. WE AR_E THREE .JURORS WHO MAY KNOW A LITTLE
F P. O. 3or ell3ll
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8yt:
MORE LATER THAN THEY KNOW NOW.
MS. WINNER: I I,,JILL DO THAT OVER THE
l,JE EKEND.
MR. LEONARD: THE STATE CALLS JOHN
SANDERS.
( WHEREUPo[.i,
JOHN L. SANDERS
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
rollows: )
D I RECT EXAM I NAT I ON 11:07A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A YOUR NAME IS JOHN LASSITER SANDERS AND YOU
LIVE AT 1107 SoURWooD DRIVE IN CHAPEL HILL, N0RTH cARo-
LINA?
., A YES.
, MR. ITONENO: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS
FOR THE PURPOSE OF GIVING HIM SOME DOCUMENTS?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YES.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A YCU ARE A MEMBER OF THE FACULTY AND DIRECTOR
OF THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH
CAROLINA IN CHAPEt. HILL?
A YES.
A DID YOU, AT OUR REQUEST, PREPARE A RESUME OF
H P. O, lor 2ltc!
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
8ui
YOUR PERSONAL, EDUCATIONAL AND OTHER DATA ABOUT YOUR-
SELF?
YES.
a I SHOW yOU, OR ASK yOU TO LOOK AT, WHAT HAS
BEEI.I MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 37 AND ASK YOU IF THAT
IS A RESUME OR CURRIEULU}4 VIIAE HAVING TO DO WITH JOHN
LASSITER SANDERS, YOU?
A IT IS.
. MR. LEONARD:
BELIEVE THERE IS NO OBJECTION,
BIT 37 INTO EVIDENCE.
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 37 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICA.TION.
I F THE COURT PLEASE, I
I OFFER DEFENDANT'S EXHI-
.]UDGE PHILLIPS: I T I S ADMI TTED I^,I THOUT
O BJ ECT I ON.
(oenrNoRrur ExHIBIT ]7 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:.
A BRIEFLY, MR. SANDERS, STATE YOUR EDUCATIONAL
BACKGROUND.
A I ATTENDED NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY AT
RALEIGH AS IT IS NOW FOR TWO YEARS, THEN TRANSFERRED TO
THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL WHERE I
RECEIVED AN AB DEGREE IN 1950. I DID IT YEARIS GRADUATE
STUDY AT THE UNIVERSITY IN CHAPEL HILL, 1950-51, AND
F P. O, Bor ztt{rl
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. rvlAlN OFFICE, RALE|GH, g3Z.goss
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
l)v)4
ENTERED LAW SCHOOL. I RECEIVED A LAW DEGREE IN 1954
FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL.
A WHAT WAS YOUR UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE IN?
A HI STORY.
a WHAT PARTICULAR KINDS Or. HISTORY?
A EUROPEAN HISTORY PRIMARILY.
A AND WHAT I^IAS YOUR FOCUS DURING THAT YEAR BE-
TI,/EEN UNDERGRADUATE AND LAW SCHOOL?
A AMERICAN HISTORY.
A AND ANY PITRTICULAR INTEREST WtTH RESPECT TO
NORTH CAROLINA?
A NORTH CAROLINA WAS AND HAS CONTINUED TO BE A
PARTICULAR INTEREST OF MINE.
A AND HAVE YOU STUDIED NORTH CAROLINA HISTORY?
A YES,, SIR.
a WHERE WAS THAT?
A PRIMARILY A; THE UNIVERSITY oF N0RTH CARoLINA
AT CHAPEL HILL.
A AFTER YOU GRADUATED FROM LAW SCHOOL, WHAT DID
YOL' DO THEN?.
A FOR A YEAR I WAS LAW CLERK TO JUDGE JOHN J.
PARKER WHO V.JAS CHIEF JUDGE OF THE UNITED STATES COURT OF
APPET,LS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT. THAT WAS 195I+.55. I.N
1955-56, I WAS rN LAW PRACTICE HERE IN RALEIGH WITH
MANNING AND FULTON.o
A P. o. lor 2tt0s
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
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0._j j
a WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER 1956?
A IN THE FALL OF 1956, I JOINED THE INSTITUTE
OF GOVERNMENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT
CHAPEL HILL.
A WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL POSITION THERE?
A I WAS INITIALLY AN ASSISTANT DIRECTOR AND
I NS TRUC TOR.
A AI.ID DID YOU SPECIALIZE IN ANY PARTICULAR AREA?
A PRIMARILY IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
A ANID WITH RESPECT TO YOUR WORK IN STATE GOVERN-
MENT, V./OULD YOU TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT THAT HAD TO
DO WITH?
A PR I MAR I LY WI TH RESEARCH FOR ADMI:N T STRAT I VE
AGENCIES AND FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLIES AND ITS COMMIT-
TEES. I PREPAR.ED MEMORANDA; D I D RESEARCH REPORTS AI.ID
CONDUCTED RESEARCH ON THE REQUTSi OF STATE AGENCIES SUCH
AS THE GOVERNOR'S OTTiCC AND OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIE
I ASSISTED WITH THE DRAFTING OF LEGISLATION GROWING OUT
OF STUDIES M/TDE BY STUDY COMMISSIONS SITTING BETWEEN SES-
SIONS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. THIS WAS PART OF THE
STAFF WORK THAT I DID ON BEHALF OF THOSE COMMITTEES AND
COMMI SS IONS.
DURING LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS I OFTEN WORKED WIT
LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEES DEALING WITH MATTERS OF STATE
GOVERNMENT ORGANIZAT-ION AND ADMINISTRATION OF STATE
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
(Jv
GOVERNMENT AND AT TIMES WITH THE ISSUE OF LEGISLATIVE
REPRESENTATION.
a How LoNG DID YOU HOLD yoUR POSITION AS A
STAFF MEMBER WITH THE INSTITUTE?
A FROM 1956 UNTIL 7973. FROM 1962 UNTIL 1973,
I WAS ALSO DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT.
THEN I WAS AV/AY FOR FIVE YEARS SERVING AS VICE-PRESIDENT
OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA ONDER MR. FRIDAY,
THEN AT THE BEGINNING OF I979 I RETURNED TO THE INSTITUTE
OF GOVERNMENT AND HAVE BEEN DIRECTOR THERE SINCE THAT
T.I ME
A TELL US BRIEFLY WHAT THE INSTITUTE IS?
A THE I NSTI TUTE I S A DEPAF.TMENT OF THE UN I VERS I T
OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL. ITS PRIMARY RESPONSI-
BILITY IS TO PUBLIC OFFICIALS OF THE STATE AND ITS LOCAL
GOV.ERNMENTS. WE DO A GREAT DEAL OF INSTRUCTING, TEACHING
FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE PUBLIC OFFI C,TALS AND EMPLOYEES.
WE ALSO DO RESEARCH, PUBLLSH BOOKS, MONOGRAPHg, AND
OTHER MATERIALS FOR THEIR BENEFIT AND WE PROVIDE CON-
SULTING AND ADVISORY SERVICES FOR THE SAME GROUPS OF
PUBLIC OFFICIALS AND PUBLIC AGENCIES.
A WITH RESPECT TO YOUR OWN PARTICULAR WORK, DID
YOU TEND TO CONCENTRATE IN ONE AREA OF GOVERNMENT AS OP-
POSED TO ANOTHER?
A I CONCENTRATED PRIMARILY IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
F P. O. tor 2116
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J;J
. A I PELIEVE YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOU DID
WORK SPECIFICALLY WITH THE LEGISLATURE. COULD YOU GIVE
US JUST BRIEFLY SOME EXAMPLES OF SPECIFICALLY THE LEGIS-
LAT I VE WORK THAT YOLI D I D ?
FOR EXAMPLE, IN 1959 THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAD
BEFORE IT A PROPOSED REVISION OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION.
I DID MOST OF THE STAFF I,/ORK FOR THE LEGISLATIVE COM-
MITTEES THAT WERE REVIEWING THAT PROPOSAL. I ALSO WORKED
WITH TI.IE COMMISSION THAT PREPARED THAT PROPOSAL.
AGAIN, IN 1969, -TEN YEARS LATER, THE GENERAL
AS.SEMBLY HAD BEFORE IT A PROPOSED REVISION OF THE STATE
CONSTITUTION. I WORKED WITH THE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEES
THAT WERE REVIEWING THAT PROPOSAL AS I HAD WORKED WITH
THE STUDY COMMISSION THAT PREPARED IT.
a WHEN DrD YOU BECOME THE DIRECTOR OF THE
INSTITUTE?
A FIRST IN SEPTEMBER OF 1962.
ANID MOST RECENTLY?
JAI.iUARY OF 19 79.
AND WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR PRIMAR.]T'FUNCTION SINCE
YOU HAVE BECOME DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE?
PRIMARl LY ADMINISTRATIVE RESPONSIBILITIES
WITH RESPECT TO THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT.
WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THE STAFF AT THE INSTI-
TUTE ?
A P. O. lor i'ttct
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
t-(J -;
A WE HAVE A FACULTY OF 32 PEOPLE CURRENTLY;
A SUPPORTING STAFF OF ABOUT 4O FULL_TIME EMPLOYEES PLUS
MANY OTHER PAP.T.TIME EMPLOYEES, STUDENT ASSISTANTS AND
SO ON. IN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION THAT NUMBER INCREASES
SOI'IEWHAT, BUT THE REGULAR EMPLOYMENT FOR US IS ABOUT 32
PLUS 4O PEOPLE.
A , NOW, ALTHOUGH YOUR PRJMARY FUNCTION IS AN
ADMINISTRATIVE ONE, DO YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CON-
TINUE TO DO SOME RESEARCH?
TO A LIMITED EXTENT; YES.
IS 1'HERE ANY CONCENTRATED
A
THAT, OR IS THERE ANY AREA iN WHICH
RESEARCH ACTIVITY?
AREA FOR DOING
YOU CONCENTRATE THAT
A I CONTINUE TO DO SOME WORK IN AREAS,IN WHICH
I HAVE WORKED BEFORE I ACQUIRED ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES,
THAT IS, WITH RESPECT TO STATE GOVERNMENT ANE MORE RE-
CENTLY ALSO HIGHER. EDUCATION MATTERS.
A YOUR RESUME LISTS YOUR VARIOUS PUBLICATIONS
OF BOOKS AND OTHER I^JRITINGS WITH RESPECT TO STATE GOVERN-
MENT AND THE OTI.IER SUBJECTS THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN; IS
THAT CORRECT?
YES, S I R.
A NOW, TO WHAT EXTENT HAS THE INSTITUTE OF
GOVERNMENT INVOLVED ITSELF IN THE STUDY AND ANALYSIS OF
THE ELECTIVE PROCESSES iN THE STATE?
F P, O. Bot 2at6lt
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iiu
A FROM NEAR ITS BEGINNINGS, CERTAiNLY BY THE
19JOIS, IT WAS INVOLVED WITH INSTRUCTION AND WRITING AND
PUBLISHING WITH RESPECT TO THE ELECTION PROCESSES OF THE
STATE. IT ISSUED GUIDEBOOKS, CONDUCTED SCHOOLS, WORKED
WITH THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AND WITH LOCAL ELECTION
OFFICIALS WITH RESPECT TO THE CONDUCT OF PRIMARY AND
GENERAL ELECTIONS.
A AND HAS THE INSTITUTE PUBLISHED IN THIS AREA?
A YES.
A PLEASE GIVE TO THE COURT SOME EXAMPLES OF
THOSE MORE RECENT PUBLiCATIONS
A THE PUBLICATIONS WITH RESPECT TO ELECTIONS ARE
SEVERAL. THERE IS A LOOSELEAF GUIDEBOOK ISSUED PRIMARILY
FOR THE USE OF COUNTY BOARDS OF ELECTIONS AND COUNTY
ELECTIONS DIRECTORS IN PRiMARY AND GENERAL ELECTIONS IN
NORTH CAROLiNA.
THERE I S AI-SO A BOOK ON PREC I NCT ELECT I ONS I N
NORTH CAROLINA WHiCH IS ISSUED EVERY TWO YEARS. THIS
SERVES AS A GUIDE TO PRECINCT OFFICIALS IN THE CONDUCT OF
PRIMARIES AND GENERAL ELECTIONS. THERE ARE ALSO PAM.
PHLETS ISSUED FROM TIME TO TIME FOR CITIZENS INSTRUCTING
THEM AtsOUT THEIR RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES AS VOTERS.
a Af{D HAVE.YOU LN THE COURSE OF YOUR I^JORK WITH
THE INSTITUTE BECOME FAMILIAR IVITH THE QUESTION OF LEGI S-
LATIVE REDISTRICTING AND REAPPORTIONMENT?
F P. O.8q 2ll{ll!
l. n.bagll No.6 C.ro{m 2rart
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
d; r-,
YES.
TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY ABOUT THAT.
MY FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH THIS SUBJECT WAS IN
THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN 1959. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME
IN WHICH I WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED THET I RECALL. I WAS
I^JORKIIlG WITH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN L957 IN WHICH THIS
ISSUE WAS I4UCH DEBATED. I RECALL THE DEBATES AT THAT
TII'1E. I DO NOT RECALL THAT I WAS PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN
WORKII.IG I./ITH LEGISLATORS OR LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEES ON THE
ISSUE,THOUGH I MAY HAVE BEEN.
BUT FROM 1959 FORWARD I HAVE BEEN SEVERAL TIME
INVOLVED IN A STAFF CAPACITY IN WORKING WITH THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY AND ITS MEMBERS ON THE ISSUE OF LEGISLATIVE
REPRESENTATION. I HAVE ALSO HAD OCCASION TO WRITE SUM-
MARIES, REPORTS AND SO ON OF LEGISLATIVE ACTIVITY ON THE
SUBJE,CT FOR PUBLICATION. BY THE TNSTT]TUTE OF GOVERNMENT
THROUGH ITS VARIOUS MEDIA.
A AND HAS THAT INVOLVEMENT IN THE LEGISLATIVE
REDISTRICTING PROCESS REQUIRED YOU TO STUDY THE NORTH
CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS AND THE SESSION LAWS?
vEc
TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY ABOUT THAT.
THE PRIMARY PROVISION'S GOVERNING THE ISSUE OF
LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION, AT LEAST DOWN UNTIL THE EARLY
1960 I S, WERE STATE DOCUMENTS: FIRST, THE CONSTITUTION
s t. O. lq
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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{) , i',
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WHICH ESTABLISHES THE STRUCTURE AND FORM OF THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY AND THE METHODS OF REPRESENTATION IN IT;
SECOND, THE STATUTES THAT WERE ENACTED FROM TIME TO TIME
APPORTIONING MEMBERS AMONG THE VARIOUS DISTRCITS ESTAB-
LISHED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. THOSE ARE THE PRIMARY
SOURCE DOCUMENTS ON THAT SUBJECT.
BESINNING IN 1962 ARE THE FEDERAL DECISIONS ON
THE SUBJECT. THERE CAME A LARGE BODY OF FEDERAL DOCU-
MENTATION DEALING ALSO WITH THAT SUB\'ECT.
AND DURiNG THE COURSE OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN
TH.E 195OIS WITH THE SUBJECT OF LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTING
AND THE LEGISLATURE, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN THE LEGIS
LATURE LOOKED AT ALTERNATIVE METHODS FOR REDISTRICTING
I TSELF?
A THERE WAS FIRST THE QUESTION OF ENFORCEMENT
OF T,HE STATE CONSTITUTION AS IT WAS THEN WRITTEN. THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAD NOT REDISTRICTED AT THE BEGINNING
OF THE 1950IS AND SO THAT WAS SI'ILL A LIVE ISSUE IN Tg57
AND 1959. THE PRIMARY CONCERN THEN WAS WITH WHETHER AND
HOW TO CONFORM TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CONSTITUTION AS
IT WAS WRITTEN.
THERE WAS ALSO CONSIDERATION FROM TIME TO TIME
OF CHANGES IN THE CONSTITUTION TO ENLARGE THE SENATE,
ENLARGE THE HOUSE, OR MAKE OTHER ALTERATIONS IN THE STRUC
TURE OF LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION.
F P. O. Bor 2llGt
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9., i]
A DID THE LEGISLATURE DURING THAT PERIOD OF
TIME IN THE LATE '50'S GIVE CONSIDERATION AND CREATE A
BODY TO LOOK AT THE CONSTITUTION?
A THERE WAS FIRST A COMMISSION CREATED BY THE
1955 GENERAL ASSEI'IBLY, AS I RECALL, To LooK SPECIFICALLY
AT THE QUESTION OF LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION. IT MADE
RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE T957 SESSION. THESE WERE CON-
SIDERED BUT NOT ADOPTED BY THAT SESSION.
THEN IN 1959 THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RECEIVED A
REPORT FROM A STUDY COMMISSION THAT WAS CONSIDERING
GENERAL OVERHAUL OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION. ONE TOPIC
CONSIDERED BY THAT COMMISSION AND ON WHICH IT MADE RECOM-
MENDATIONS TO THE GENIERAL ASSEMBLY DEALT WITH THE ISSUE
OF LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION.
WHAT,IF ANY,INVOLVEMENT DID YOU HAVE WITH THE
WORK THAl THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTIONAL COMMISSION?
A I WAS A MEI.,TBER OF THE STAFF SERVING THAT COM.
MISSION ON BEHALF OF THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT.
I BELIEVE,YOU MENTIONED THAT SOME OF THE RECOM
MENDATIONS FROM THAT COMMISSION DID RELATE SPECIFICALLY T
THE LEGI SLATURE?
YES.
A DID YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL DIRECT INVOLVEMENT
WITH LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING AND REAPPORTIONMENT IN
THE 1960 I S?
Ft 2. O. Bor lltct
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9i,j
A YES; IN THE 1961 SESSION THE SUBJECT I,,IAS
CONSIDERED. THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WAS THEN REAP-
PORTIONED AS REQUIRED BY THE STATE CONSTITUTION. THERE
WAS CONSIDERATION OF REAPPORTIONMENT OF THE SENATE, BUT
NO BILL WAS ENACTED IN 1961.
THAT SUBJECT WAS AGAIN ADDRESSED AND A BILL
WAS ENACTED IN THE FALL OF i963, REDISTRICTING AND REAP-
PORTIONING THE STATE SENATE.
A AND SINCE THE 16015, HAVE YOU SERVED IN A
STAFF OR ADVISORY CAPACITY TO OTHER COMMITTEES OR GROUPS
LOOKING AT THE QUESTION OF REDISTR,ICTING, REAPPORTIONMENT
CONSTITUTIONAL REVISIONS FOR THE LEGISLATURE?
YES; IN 1955 THERE WAS A LAWSUTT, DRUM V.
EUROPE--DRUM V. SEWELL, AS IT LATER BECAME, WHICH WAS
BROUGHT TO ASK THE FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT TO REQUIRE
REAPPORTIONMENT AND REDISTRICTING OF THE HOUSE, THE
SENATE AND REVISION OF CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.
THAT CASE WAS HEARD BY A THREE-JUDGE FEDERAL
DISTRICT COURT IN THE LATE FALL OF 1965. THAT COURT
INVALIDATED THE THREE PLANS BEFORE IT. IT DIRECTED THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO PROCEED TO DRAI^J NEW PLANS AND REPORT
BACK TO THE COURT BY ABOUT 60 DAYS FROM THE TIME OF THE
ORDER--THE END OF JANUARY 1966.
THE GOVERNOR, THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REP-
RESENTATIVES AND THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CONSIDERED THE
F P. O. Aor 2atis
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OZ
MATTER, DECIDED NOT TO APPEAL, DECIDED TO CALL A
SPECIAL-_AN EXTRA SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO
MEET EARLY IN JANUARY. IN ORDER TO PREPARE PROPOSALS
FOR CONSIDERATION BY THAT SESSION, THREE SELECT COMMITTEE
WERE FORMED: ONE TO PREPARE A PLAN FOR THE HOUSE, ONE
TO PREPARE A PLAN FOR THE SENATE, AND ONE TO PREPARE A
CONGRESSIONAL DI STRICTING PLAN.
I IYAS ASKED TO SERVE AS A STAFF MEMBER TO
THoSEcoMMITTEESANDwASINVoLVEDINDEcEMBERoF1965
AND JANUARY OF 1966 IN THAT ACTIVITY. THEN WHEN THE
SESS I,ON MET IN JANUARY OF 1966, I WORKED ALSO WI TH THE
COMMITTEES THAT WERE REVIEWING THOSE PLANS FOR CON-
SIDERATION BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
IT ADOPTED THREE PLANS. THEY WENT BACK TO
THE DISTRICT COURT. THE DISTRICT COURT APPROVED THE
PLANS FOR THE HOUSE AND THE SCNNTC FOR USE FOR THE RE-
MAINDER OF THE DECADE OF THE I60'S. IT DISAPPROVED THE
CONGRESSiONAL DISTRICTING P{AN EXCEPT THAT IT DID ALLOW
ITS USE IN THE PRIMARIES AND GENERAL ELECTIONS OF 1966
BECAUSE THEY WERE II',IT4INENT.
THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THEN REDREI^I THAT coN.
GRESSIONAL DISTRICTING PLITN IN THE Lg67 SESSION, AND
SUBSEQUENTLY THAT WAS APPROVED BY THE DISTRICT COURT SO
THAT WAS A PRIMARY INVOLVEMENT IN THE MID-1960IS. THEN
AS I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED, IN THE LATE 1960IS THERE WAS
F 2. O, Aor 2tt(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFF|CE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
9.,;
ANOTHER CONSTITUTIONAL VOTE.
BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, THERE WAS A CONSTITU-
TIONAL AMENDMENT RECOMMENDED TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF
1967 BY THE LEGISLATIVE RESEARCH COMMISSiON WHICH WAS
INTENDED TO CONFORM THE WORDS OF THE CONSTITUTION TO THE
METHOD OF APPORTIONMENT THEN IN EXISTENCE AS A RESULT OF
WHAT HAD TO BE DONE TO CONFORM TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE
FEDERAL CONSTITUTION. THAT STUDY COMMISSION RECOMMENDED
AN AMEI.IDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION WHICH I HAD ASSISTED IN
DRAFTING. THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF 1967 APPROVED THE
AM.ENDMENT, SUBMITTED IT TO THE VOTERS, THE VOTERS APPROVE
THE AMENDMENT IN THE ELECTION OF 1968,AND SO THAT THEN
BECAME THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION 14ITH RESPECT TO
REPRESENTATION IN THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTA-
T I VES.
., IN JANUARY OF 1969, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RE-
CEIVED A RECOMMENDED REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION PRE-
PARED BY A STUDY COMMISSIONT THAT PROVISION, HOWEVER,
SIMPLY CARRIED FORWARD WITH ONLY VERY MINOR WORD CHANGES
THE PROVISIONS WHICH HAD BEEN RAIFIED BY THE VOTERS IN
1968 WITH RESPECT TO REPRESENTATION IN THE GENERAL AS-
SEMBLY. THOSE ARE THE PROVISIONS WHICH ARE NOT IN THE
STATE CONSTITUTION. THEY WERE APPROVED BY THE VOTERS IN
THE GENERAL ELECTION OT 1968 AND AGAIN APPROVED BY THE
VOTERS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION OF 1970 AS A PART OF THE
F P. O. tor aaltt
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J u:i
REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
A HAVE THERE BEEN ANY CONSTITUTiONAL CHANGES
MADE SINCE THAT TIME?
WITH RESPECT TO LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION?
YES, S I R.
NOT THAT I RECALL.
a Now BR I EFLy, MR. SANDERS, yOUR EXpEF..I ENCE I.,tI TH
THE ISSUE AND WITH THE LEGISLATURE-.THAT IS, THE REDIS-
TRICTING AND REAPPORTIONMENT ISSUE AND WITH THE LEGIS-
LATURE SINCE 1971 TO DATE?
IN 1971 FOLLOWING THE 1970 CENSUS, IT WAS
NECESSARY FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO REDRAW THE STATE LEGIS.
LATIVE DISTRICTS AND THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.
I APPEARED BRIEFLY BEFORE, AS I NOW RECALL,
TWO OF THE COMMITTEES THAT WERE CONSIDERING THAT SUBJECT
AT.THE BEGINNING OF
'I'
SESSION. MY FUNCTION THERE, AT
THE INVITATION OF THE CHAIRMEN OF THE COMMITTEES, WAS TO
DISCUSS THE HISTORY OF APPORTIONMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA.
THE GENERAL TERMS OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION
UNDER WHICH THEY HAD TO FUNCTION AND THE GENERAL REQUIRE-
MENTS OF THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION AS THE COURTS HAD IN-
TERPRETED IT WITH RESPEC.T TO STATE LEGISLATIVE APPORTION-
MENT AND CONGEESSIONAL DISTRICTING.
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I
OFFER MR. JOHN LASSITER SANDERS AS AN EXPERT TO THIS
A
F P. O. Bor 1'ttos
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COURT ON THE HISTORY OF REAPPORTIONMENT IN THE STATE
OF NORTH CAROLINA.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WITHOUT OBJECTION, MR.
SANDERSI QUALIFICATIONS ARE ESTABLISHED AND THEY WILL BE
RECE IVED.
BY MR. LEONARD:
DID YOU AT SOME POINT IN 1981 PREPARE A MEMO-
RANDUM TO BE.SUBMITTED TO THE OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL RELATING TO THE QUESTION OF THE SUBDIVISION OF
COUNTIES EN.JOINING SENATE AND REPRESENTATIVE DISTRICTS
OO.* THE ELECTION OF MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF
NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES.
A AND I S THAT DOCUMENT
DEFENDANTIS EXHIBIT 52?
YE5.
MR. LEONARD:
BEFORE YQU, MARKED AS
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 52 WAS
MARKED FOR iDENTIFICATION.)
I F THE COURT PLEASE, WE
HAVE DI SCUSSED THI S DOCUMENT I^/ITH COUNSEL AND I UNDERSTAND
THAT SHE HAS SOME OBJECTION TO tT, BUT THE PURPOSE OF IT
IS TO SUMMARIZE WHAT MIGHT BE PROBABLY ANOTHER HALF AN
HOUR OF MR. SANDERS' TESTIMONY. THIS IS A DOCUMENT WHICH
TRACES THE HISTORY AND HAS SOME PARTICULAR EMPHASIS ON
T}.IE QUESTION OF THE DRAWING OR USE OF COUNTY LINES IN THE
F P. O. Bor 2tlc!
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
rli ' a
"JJU
SUBDIVISIONS OF COUNTIES. IT IS OFFERED BY US AND
THIS TESTIMONY IS OFFERED BY US TO PROVE THAT THE HISTORY
OF THE USE OF THE LINES IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRCITS I5 NOT
TENUOUS, THAT IT IS, IN FACT, IN STATE POLICY FOR SOME
LONG PERIOD OF TiME
COUNSEL, I BELIEVE, HAS INDICATED TO ME THAT
SHE FEELS THERE IS A LEGAL CONCLUSION IN THE DOCUMENT
THAT I S COMPETENl' TESTI MOI.IY BY THE WI TNESS. OTHER THAN
THAT SHE HAS NO OBJECTION, BUT AT LEAST I WOULD LIKE TO
OFFER IT RIGHT NOW IN LIEU OF EXTENSIVE DIRECT EXAMINA-
TION.
.,UDGE PHI LL I PS: WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT IT,
MS. WINNER?
MS. WINNER:
TO .ITS ADMISSION TO THE
I W]LL ASK THE COURT TO
PARTICULAR SENTENCES IN
ARE CLEARLY CONCLUSORY.
I AM NOT GOING TO OBJECT
EXTENT THAT IT EXPEDITE MATTERS.
BEAR IN MIND THAT THERE ARE SOME
I T THAT ARE CLEARLY HEARSAY AI.ID
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
OF THE PROBLEMS OF RELEVANCE
CONSIDER THE DOCUMENT.
MS. WINNER:
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
ADMI TTED.
THE . COURT WILL BE MINDFUL
AND COMPETENCY WHEN WE
THANK YOU.
WITHOUT OBJECTION, IT IS
F l. O.8or illlGs
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
{)
J r.t I
(orrrruoRNT EXHiBIT 52 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
BY MR. LEONARD:
A NOW, MR. SANDERS, BRIEFLY, DO YOU HAVE AN
OPINION AS TO I^JHAT SOME OF THE REASONS HAVE BEEN BEHIND
THE LEGISLATUREIS POLICY OF USING WHOLE COUNTIES IN THE
DRAWING OF LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS?
YES.
WCULD YOU STATE THEM FOR THE COURT, PLEASE?
THE USE OF COUNTIES AS THE ELECTION DISTRICTS-
REPRESENTATION DISTRICTS--OR GROUPS OF WHOLE COUNTIES AS
THE BUI LDING BLOCKS FOR THESE DISTRICTS IS TRADITIOI{AL.
IT GOES BACK TO THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE LEGISLATURE IN
THIS STATE IN 1665. SO ONE OF THE STRONG FACTORS IN ITS
SUPPOP.T IS THAT OF FAMILIARITY AND MOMENTUM.
. AT THE VARIOUS STAGES AT WHICH THE ISSUE OF
REPRESENTATION HAS BEEN READDRESSED BY CONSTITUTIONAL
CONVENTIONS OR BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, OR BY OTHER GROUP
STUDYING IT, THEY BUILT ON THE PRE-EXISTING SYSTEM AND
FOLLOWED IT INSOFAR AS IT SEEMED FEASIBLE AND PRACTICAL
TO DO SO.THEREFORE THERE IS THAT FACTOR OF MOMENTUM AND
FAMILIARITY WHICH HAS SUPPORTED THE USE OF THE COUNTY AS
THE BUI LDING BLOCK IN DESIGNING LEGI SLATIVE REPRESENTATIO
DISTRICTS, BOTH FOR THE HOUSE AND FOR THE SENATE AND FOR
THE CONGRESS IONAL DI STRI CT AS T,IELL.
A
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
it,C
AT THE VARIOUS STAGES IN WHICH THIS ISSUE
WAS ADDRESSED-.I CAN DISCUSS THOSE IN MORE DETAIL IF
YOU HAVE PARTICULAR qUESTIONS ABOUT THEM--BUT THAT WAS
ONE FACTOR.
FOR A VERY LONG TIME THE COUNTY WAS THE ONLY
SUBSTATE UNIT WITH ESTABLISHED BOUNDARY LINES. IT WAS
FI.MILIAR TO THE PUBLIC, TO THE VOTERS, TO THE PEOPLE IN-
VOLVED IN PUBLIC AFFAIRS. PEOPLE THOUGHT IN TERMS OF
THEIR PLACE OF RESIDENCE AS A COUNTY.AND SO THEY KNEW
WHEN A COUNTY WAS PLACED IN A PARTICULAR LEGISLATIVE
DISTRICT WHERE THEY AS VOTERS WOULD VOTE.
THE COUNTY HAS, IN ADDITION TO ITS IDENTIFI-
cATION AS AN eleCrtON DISTRICT2COHERENCE OF MANY KINDS.
IT IS THE PRIMARY ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT FOR THE ADMINI-
STRATION OF STATE POLICIES AND PROGRAMS AND HAS BEEN
FRO}4 THE BEGINNING. IT IS ALSO
"ED
IMPOP.TANTLY AS A
UNIT OF LOCAL GOVECNMCI.TT, AN AREA WITHIN WHICH THE VOTERS
AND CITIZENS OF THAT DISTRICT ACTING THROUGH THEIR ELECTE
BODIES DECIDE WHETHER TO UNDERTAKE CERTAIN PROGRAMS OF
SERVICE AND REGULATION ON BEHALF OF THE C.ITIZENS AND
RESIDENTS O[: THAT COUNTY WT.IICI.I MAY NOT BE COMMON TO
OTHER COUNTIES.
IT HAS THEN SERVED MANY PURPOSES.-GOVERNMENTAL
PURPOSES--AS A UNIT OF THE STATE AND AS A UNIT OF LOCAL
GOVERNMENT. FOR THE-SE REASONS, ALSO, IT WAS A LOGICAL
F 2. O. Bd 1'ClGl
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
1! lJt i
UNIT TO USE IN THE DESIGN OF LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATION
DISTRICTS.
THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
HAS USED THE LOCAL BILL SYSTEM IN ENACTING LEGISLATION.
AT TIMES IT HAS BEEN MORE INTENSIVELY USED THAN IT IS
TODAY. WHILE THERE ARE A GREAT DEAL OF THE GOVERNMENTAL
AFFAIRS OF THE STATE, THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS HAVE
BEEN DETERMINED BY BILLS ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
APPLYING TO A PARTICULAR COUNTY OR A PARTICULAR CITY.
FOR THIS REASON, TOO' IT WAS CONVENIENT AND PRACTICAL TO
US.E THE COUNTY AS THE UNIT OF REPRESENTATION IN DESIGNING
SENATE DISTRICTS AND HOUSE DISTRICTS FOR ELECTION PUR-
POSES BECAUSE THEY NEEDED-.AND THROUGHOUT NEARLY ALL THE
HI STORY OF THE STATE THERE HAS BEEN SOMEONE IN THE GENERA
ASSEMBLY FROM EVERY COUNTY IN THE STATE WHO COULD ATTEND
TO THE LEGISLATIVE INT.ERESTS OF IHAT COUNTY. THAT SYSTEM
PREVAILED UNTIL 1966 WHEN IT HAD TO BE ABANDONED AS A
RESUL.T OF THE DECISION IN THE DRUM CASE.
FOR THAT REASON AS WELL, IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR
COUNTIES TO BE USED RATHER THAN SOME ARBITRARY AND OTHER-
WISE FICTITIOUS OR OTHERWISE ARBITRARY DISTRICTS THAT
MIGHT BE DESIGNED FOR THE ELECTION OF LEGISLATORS.
MR. SANDERS, DO yOU KNOV,I WHAT THE TERM IHOME
RULEII MEANS ?
YES.
F P. O. Bor 2trc!
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
5*u
A IS THAT A GENERALLY ACCEPTED TERM IN THE
PROFESSION OF THOSE OF YOU WHO DEAL WITH STATE AND LOCAL
GOVERNMENTS ?
YEE.
TELL THE COURT I^,HAT THAT MEANS.
GENERALLY IT REFERS TO THE CONCEPT OF THE
VOTERS OF A PARTICULAR GOVERNMENTAL UNITi-A COUNTY,' A.
CITY, OR SOME OTHER LOCAL DISTRICTS--SHOULD DECIDE EITHER
DIRECTLY THROUGH REFERENDUM OR THROUGH THEIR ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES ON ISSUES OF LOCAL CONCERN.
. a DO NORTH.CITROLINA COUNTIES HAVE HOME RULE
POWER ?
THEY HAVE IT TO A MODERATE DEGREE NOW. THEY
HAVE NOT HAD IT THROUGH MOST OF THEIR HISTORY, HOWEVER.
AND iF THE STATE DID NOT HAVE COUNTIES, WHAT
WOULD IT HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT ITS FUNCTIONS?
A IT WOULD NOU' TO CREATE SUBSTATE DISTRICTS
TO PERFORM SIMILAR FUNCTIONS.. THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN
lOO OR FEWER THAN 1OO, BUT CLEARLY UNLESS THE STATE WERE
WI LL I NG TO ADI'II N I STER ALL OF I TS SERVI CES OUT OF RALE I GH
ON A STATEWIDE BASIS, IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF
LOCAL UNITS OF GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATiON TO ASSIST IN
CARRYING OUT THOSE PROGRAMS.
A IS THE CONSIDERATION WHICH YOU TESTIFIED TO
EARLIER WITH RESPECT- TO THE MAINTENANCE OF COUNTIES, THE
-
P. O. Bor 2tl6
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. iAArN OFF|CE, RAt EtcH, 832.908s
779.3619 876.4571
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9.. i.
USE OF COUNTIES THROUGHOUT THE
CONTINUING TO PREVAIL TODAY?
HI STORY OF THE STATE,
A I BELIEVE THEY DO; YES, SIR.
A DO YOU.-IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE? IF THERE IS,
I^JOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT FOR THE COURT?
THERE IS TODAY A GREATER AMOUNT OF AUTHORITY
IN BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND IN CITY COUNCILS
WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL MATTERS THAN THERE WAS
PRIOR TO ABOUT 1970. IN THAT PERIOD AROUND tg7O, THERE
WERE LEGISLATIVE CHANGES MADE WHICH HAD THE EFFECT OF
DELEGATING TO COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS AND TO CITY
COUNCILS MORE AUTHORITY WITH RESPECT TO COUNTY AND MUNI-
CIPAL AFFAIRS INCLUDING THE STRUCTURE AND ORGANIZATION
OF THEIR GOVERNMENTS THAN THEY HAD EN.JOYED PRIOR TO THAT
TIME.
. IT REMAINS.A FACT, nOWrVen, THAT THERE IS A
GREAT DEAL OF BUSINESS DONE BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY PER.
TAINING TO INDIVIDUAL COUNT.IES AND INDIVIDUAL CITIES.
IN THE SESSION JUST AD.JOURNED, THERE WERE PERHAPS ]OO
BILLS,MOST OF WHICH WERE ENACTED FOR THIS PURPOSE.
MR. SANDERS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO
WHETHER OR NOT NORTH CAROLINAIS TRADITION OF USING WHOLE
COUNTIES IN THE FORMATION OF REPRESENTATIVE DISTRICTS
I5 BASED ON ANY INTENTION ON THE PART OF THE GENERAL AS.
SEMBLY TO RENDER LESS EFFECTIVE THE VOTES AND POLITICAL
F P. O. 8or 2Elat
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
, 779-3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J ;- t-,
PARTICIPATION OF THE RACIAL MINORITY IN THIS STATE?
I DO.
AND WHAT IS THAT OPINION?
IN MY CBSERVATION OF THE REAFPORTIONMENT
PROCESS OVER THE 25 YEARS THAT I HAVE OBSERVED IT, I
AM NOT AWARE OF RACIAL BIAS HAVING ENTERED INTO THE
JUDGMENTS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN THE DESIGN OF
LEGIST.ATIVE DISTRICTS OR THE APPORTIOI.JMENT OF MEMBERS
TO THOSE DISTRICI'S.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I HAVE .JUST A MOMENT,
YOUR HONOR?
(PAUSE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
MR. SANDERS, THE COURT HAS HEARD TESTIMONY
PREVI OUSLY THAT COUNT I ES ARE TODAY NOT IMPORTANT I,,JI TH
RESPECT TO THE ACTIVITIES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE
GENERAL GEOGRAPHIC enens OF THE COUNTIESa-THAT IS, THE
COUNTY BOUNDARIES. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT OPINION?
A NO.
a TELL THE COURT WHAT YOUR OPINION IS WITH
RESPECT TO THE COUNTIES FROM THAT STANDPOINT-.FROM THE
STANDPOINT OF COMMERCE AND THE SOCIAL ACTIVITIES OF THE
PEOPLE OF THE STATE AND THEIR IDENTIFICATION.
A THE COUNTY CONTINUES TO BE A VITAL AND VIABLE
UNIT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA. THE COUNTY
a
F P. O. Eor 2at6
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J.r tJ
iS NOT DOING SOME O[: THE THINGS TODAY IT WAS 75 YEARS
AGO, BUl' IT IS DOING A GREAT }4ANY THINGS TODAY THAT IT
WAS NOT DOING THEN. THE COUNTIES TODAY SPEND PERHAPS
$4r000,000r000 A vEAR oF wHICH ABour HALF IS RAISED FRoM
THE I R OWN .RESOURCES. THEY Hl RE MORE PEOPLE NiND RENDER
MORE SERVICES TO THEIR CITIZENS THAN THEY EVER HAVE AT
ANY TIME IN THEIR HISTORY.
THEREFORE, THEY PERFORM SERVICES THAT ALL OF
US NEED AND USE WHETHER WE ARE SPECIFICALLY AWARE THAT
THEY ARE COUNTY PROVIDED OR COUNTY ADMINISTERED SERVICES
OR NOT. OFTEN WE DO NOT THINK OF THE COUNTY BECAUSE WE
MAY NOT COME INTO CONTACT PERSONALLY WITH ITS SERVICES
AND ACTIVITIES. BUT IN SUCH THINGS AS THE SOCIAL SERVICE
PROGRAMS, WELFARE PROGRAMS, PUBLIC HEALTH PROGRAMS, THE
MAINTENANCE OF THE COURT, THE CRiMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM,
THE. COUNTIES STILL. HAVE A VITAL *OL= WHICH SOMEONE MUST
PERFORM ON BEHALF OF ALL THE CITIZENS. AND IF THE COUNTY
WERE NOT THERE TO DO ITTSOME OTHER UNIT WOULD HAVE TO BE
CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE.
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL.
JUDGE PI.iI LLI PS: MS. WINNER?
CROSS EXAMINATION I 1:4+ A.M
BY MS. WINNER:
MR. SANDERS, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT EDUCATION ISa
F P. O. Dor 2ltc,
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
)tr-x
ONE OF THE PRIMARY FUNCTIONS OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT?
A YES,.
a How MANY SCHOOL DISTRICTS WERE THERE IN ig68?
A ADMINISTRATIVE SCHOOL UNITS?
a _ YES, SIR.
A APPROX IMATELY 1 50.
A AND THERE ARE STILL I43?
A YES.
a AN{D THOSE SCHOOL DISTRICTS SOMETIMES ARE
COUNTY AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE NOT COUNTY; IS THAT CORRECT
YES; SOMETIMES AN AREA APPROXIMATELY IDENTIFIE
WITH A CITY IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT.
A AND THAT CITY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE OF
ROCKY MOUNT MIGHT BE IN MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?
A YES.
A AND THEREFORE THAT SCHOOL DISTRICT WOULD BE IN
MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?
A YES.
A AND IN CREATING LEGISLATION THAT HAD TO DO
WITH EDUCATION, IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER THE
NIEEDS OF THOSE SCHOOL DISTRICTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A IS IT TRUE THAT IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IT
IS POSSIBLE, FOR EXAMPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY WHICH HAS TWO
SCHOOL D I STR I CTS--A.R_E YOU FAMI L IAR WI TH THAT?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
r-/3;
A YES.
A IS IT POSSIBL.E IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT
THAT ALL OF THE REPRESENTATIVES WILL LIVE IN ONE OF THE
SCHOOL DiSTRICTS AND NONE OF THE REPRESENTATIVES WOULD
LIVE IN THF OTHER SCHOOL DISTRICT?
A YES.
A IS ANOTHER FUNCTION OF STATE GOVERNMENT THAT
iS IMPORTANT TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION--HIGHWAYS?
A PROVIDING A ROAD SYSTEM.
A HIGHWAYS?
A YES.
q AND THOSE t-tiGHWAyS GO FROM ONE COUNTY TO
ANOTHER, DONII THEY?
A YES.
a AND THEY WOULD SOMETIMES SERVE ONE PORTION OF
A COUNTY AND NOT ANOTHER PORTION OF A COUNTY?
A YES.
A IS THE DEVELOPMENT OF INDUSTRY AND TRADE AN
IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF STATE GOVERNMENT?
A YES.
A AND DO INDUSTRIES WHICH ARE LOCATING IN NORTH
CAROLINA TODAY GENERALLY GET THEIR EMPLOYEES FROM MORE
THAN ONE COUNTY, OR MAY THEY GET THEIR EMPLOYEES FROM
MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?
A YES.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
tJ
A AND DO THEY DISTRIBUTE THEIR GOODS AND
SERVICES THAT THEY PRODUCE TO MORE THAN ONE COUNTY?
A YES.
A AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS IS THE RESEARCH
TRIANGLE PARK WHICH IS A STATE ENCOURAGED INDUSTRY; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A AND IT CLEARLY DRAWS FROM AT LEAST THREE
COUNTIES?
A YES.
. A IS CONSUMER PROTECTION IN THE FORM OF LICENSI
AN IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF THE STATE?
A YES.
A ARE THE LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCTORS
AND NURSES AND LAWYERS AND SUCH DIFFERENT'IN DiFFERENT
COUN.TiES OF THE STATE?
A NO.
A AND ARE THE CONSUMER PROTECTION NEEDS OF THE
PEOPLE RECEIVING THEIR SERVICES DIFFERENT.IN DIFFERENT
COUNTiES OF THE STATE?
A NO.
A ARE CREATING AND ENACTiNG CRIMINAL LAWS AN
IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF THE LEGISLATURE?
A YES.
A DO THOSE CRIMINAL LAWS NECESSARILY HAVE TO
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, R.ALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
lit I ::JL I
APPLY TO ALL PEOPLE OF THE STATE NO MATTER WHAT COUNTY
THEY LIVE IN?
A MOST OF THEM DO, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.
a THE VAST MA.JOR I TY DO, WOULDN I T YOU SAY?
A YES.
A AND PROVIDING CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTIONS FOR
THOSE PEOPLE WHO BREAK THOSE LAWS I S ANOTHER IMPORTANT
FUNCTION OF THE STATE, IS IT NOT?
A YES.
A AND THOSE CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTIONS SERVE THE
PE,OPLE FROM VAR I OUS COUNT I ES I N THE STATE?
A YES.
A THE STATE ALSO SUPPLIES OTHER INSTITUTIONS
SUCH AS INSTITUTIONS FOR THE DEAF AND THE BLIND AND THE
MENTALLY ILL AND THE MENTALLY RETARDED; IS THAT CORRECT?
, A YES.
A ATJD THOSE INSTITUTIONS DRAW THEIR POPULATIONS
FROM PEOPLE OF VARIOUS COUNTI ES IN THE ST.ATE; I S THAT
CORRECT ?
A YES.
a NOb/, YOU MENTIONED THAT liHE COUNTIES ARE THE
ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICE UNITS OF THE STATE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A DOES EACH COUNTY HAVE TO HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE
I N ORDER TO ADMI N I ST_ER THOSE SERVI CES?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,IAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
,r '-.,t
A NO.
A DOES EACH COUNTY HAVE TO HAVE A REPRESET'JTATIVE
IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO BE USED AS THE STAf,EIS ADMINI-
STRATIVE UNIT?
A NO.
A DOES THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF NORTH
CAROLINA REPRESENT COUNTIES IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE
SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES HAS REPRESENTIVES FROM STATES
t
A NO.
A THIS IS NOT A FEDERAL SYSTEM IN THE SENSE THAT
IIS UNITS GOT TOGETHER AND AGREED TO JOIN A GOVERNMENT?
A YES; I AGREE WITH YOU.
a RATHER I T WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND--THE
POI.ITICAL UNIT SUBDiVIDED ITSELF?
A THE STATE CREATED THE COUNTIES.
. A RIGHT. AND AS OPPOSE; TO THE RELATIONSHIP
OF THE STATE AND THE
""*O'.
GOVERNMENT, THE COUNTIES
HAVE NO INDEPENDENT RESERVED POWERS. THEY ONLY HAVE THE
POWERS GIVEN TO THEM BY THE STATE?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a Now, rN L967 AND 1968 AND 1966 THERE WERE NO
BLACK MEMBERS OF THE NORTH CAROLINA LEGISLATURE, WERE
THERE ?
A NO.
A AND, IN F]CT, THERE WAS NO BLACK INPUT INTOo
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
THE CREATION OF THIS NEW SYSTEM OF APPORTIONMENT,
WAS THERE?
A NONE THAT I RECALL.-NO PARTICIPANTS IN THE
DISCUSSIONS.
A YOU MENTIONED THE USE OF LOCAL BILLS IN THE
LEGISLATURE TO RUN THE BUSINESS OF VARIOUS LOCAL GOVERN-
MENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
q AND YOU MENTIONED SOME 100 BILLS?
A YES.
A SOME OF THEM WOULD HAVE RELATED TO COUNTIES?
A YE S,.
A SOME OF THEM WOULD HAVE RELATED TO CITIES?
A YES.
A SOME OF THEM WOULD HAVE RELATED TO SCHOOL
DISTRICTS:,
A YES.
a SOME oF THEM WOUIID HAVE RELATED TO OTHER
ADMINISTRATIVE UNITS SUCH AS SOIL CONSERVATION DISTRICTS?
A YES.
A THESE UNITS MAY BE PART OF COUNTIES AND THEY
MAY COVER MORE THAI.{ ONE COUNTY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
a Do you KNow How MANY oF THE 300 ACTUALLY RE-
LATED TO COUNTIES AS OPPC}SED TO THESE OTHER ADMINISTRATIV
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
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i I !-'
Jk\r
UNT.TS?
A NO.
A THE REPORT THAT YOU WROTE WHICH I BELIEVE IS
DEFENDANTIS EXHIBIT 5O--IS THAT RIGHT?
UUDGE PHILLIPS: 52.
BY MS. WINNER:
A THAT WAS WRITTEN IN SEPTEMBER..AT THE END OF
SEPTEMBER OF 1981; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A AND IT WAS WRITTEN AFTER YOU KNEW THAT THIS
LAWSUiT WAS PENIDING?
A YES.
q IT WAS WRITTEN FOR THE PURPOSE OF SUBMITTING
TO THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE?
A YES.
. a Ar.iD IT WAS WRITTEN rOn THE PURPOSE OF ESTAB-
LISHING THE LACK OF DISCRIMINATORY INTENT?
A AND YOU WROTE IT AT THE REQUEST OF MR. WALLACE
OF THE ATTORNEY GENERALIS OFFICE?
A YE!,.
A ON PAGE SIX OF THAT REPORT, YOU CONCLUDE THAT
THE LEGISLATURE DID NOT HAVE ANY RACIAL MOTIVE OR EFFECT-
THAT THE LEGISLATION DID NOT HAVE ANY RACIAL MOTIVE OR
EFFECT; IS THAT CORRECT?
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'J*
A THIS IS A PROVISION THAT WAS ADOPTED IN
1967-68. IS THAT THE ONE TO WHICH YOU REFER?
A THAT IS THE ONE THAT YOTJ ARE REFERRING TO ON
PAGE SIX, IS IT NOT?
A YES. I WAS NOT AWARE OF ANY RACIAL MOTIVE
INVOLVED IN THE PROPOSAL OR RATIFICATION OF THAT AMEND-
MENT.
A DOES THAT MEAN THAT NOBODY ARTICULATED ANY
RACIAL MOTIVE TO YOU?
A YES.
A DOES IT MEAN ANYTHING BEYOND THAT?
A NO.
A NOW, IF A COUNTY SUCH AS MECKLENBURG COUNTY
WAS SUBDIVIDED, WOULD EVERY PERSON IN THAT COUNTY STILL
HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE?
.. A YES.
A WOULD EVER; COUNTY COMMISSIONER STILL HAVE A
REPRES ENTAT I VE ?
A YES.
A WOULD THOSE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS STILL BE ABLE
TO GO TO THOSE REPRESENTATIVES TO REQUEST THAT THEY INTRO
DUCE LOCAL LEGISLATION?
A YES.
A WOULD THE WHOLE COUNTY STILL HAVE THE SAME
NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
1t. .
JA
YE S.
A I S IT TRL'E THAT THE FACULTY OF THE INSTITUTE
OF GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE ANY BLACK MEMBERS ON IT?
A YES.
MS. WINNER: I HAVE No FURTHER QUESTIoN
REDIRECT EXAMINATION LI:52 A.M
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DOES ANY OF THE TESTIMONY, MR.
YOU HAVE GIVEN ON CROSS-EXAMINATION IN ANY
ALTER THE OPINIONS YOU GAVE TO THIS COU.RT
EXAM I NAT I ON ?
a
TO WHAT
ALL--I F
AT ALL
SANDERS, THAT
WAY CHANGE OR
ON DIRECT
NO.
EXAMINATION Ll:53 A. M
BY JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
MR. SANDER;, WoULD YoU VENTURE AN oPINIoN AS
WOULD SERVE AS A BASIS FOR REDISTRICTING
ALL AT ONCE IT WERE FORBIDDEN TO USE COUNTY LINES
IN NORTH CAROLINA?
IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO USE SOME COMPOSITION
OF CENSUS TRACTS SiNCE THE ONE OBJECTIVE IS TO EQUALIZE
REPRESENTATION IN PROPORTION TO NUMBERS, THOSE BEING THE
DISTRICTS ON WHICH YOU HAVE POPULATION COUNTS. SO IT
WOULD BE UP TO THE GINERAL ASSEMBLY TO CREATE SOME
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCR!BING, INC. M,AIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
t_; ' .i
r,)
ARBITRARY ASSEMBLY OF CENSUS TRACTS TI-IAT WOULD PRODUCE
THE APPROPRIATE NUMBERS OF RESIDENTS PER REPRESENTATIVE
OR PER SENATOR.
A DO YOU KNOW I F ANY STATE HAS EVER ADOPTED THAT
A I DONIT KNOW OF ANY STATE THAT HAS ADOPTED SUC
A PLAl.l STATEI^/IDE.
EXAMINATION 11:54 A.M
BY JUDGE BRITT:
I'IOULD NOT TOWNSHI PS BE A VIABLE USE?
TOI,INSHIPS WOULD BE PRACTICAL WHERE THEY COIN-
CIDE WITH CENSUS TRACTS AS I THINK THEY GENERALLY DO IN
RURAL AREAS, BUT IN CITIES AND THE MORE POPULOUS AREAS
THEY WOULD NOT DEFINE THE SAME BOUNDARIES THAT THE CENSUS
TRACTS WOULD.
YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR TESTIMONY SOMETHING
ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE COUNTIES IN THE COURT SYSTEM IN
NORTH CAROLINA TODAY. AS S MATTER OF FACT, TODAY THE
STATE HAS AS PART OF THE FINANCiAL ASPECTS OF IT TAKEN
COMPLETELY CONTROL OF THE COURT SYSTEI4 IN THE STATE.
THE STATE F I NANCE S THE OPERAT I NG COST OF THE
COURTS. THE COUNTY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THE
FACILITIES AND, OF COURSE, THE COUNTY IS STILL USED IN
DESIGNiNG JUDICIAL DISTRICTS.SO IT I5 A DEFINED SET OF
BOUNDARI ES I'JHICH
'N:
STATE USES FOR ITS OWN PUP.POSES.
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9";*
AND THE FACILITIES TFIAT THE COUNTY OR IN
SOME.INSTANCES THE MUNICIPALITIES PROVIDE IS REIMBURSED
BY THE STATE THROUGH THE USER FEE, IS IT NOT?
THROUGH THE FEE SYSTEM; YES, SIR.
.J UDGE BR I TT : THANK YOU.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
' 11:55 A. M.
BY MFI. LEONARD :
a MFi,. SANDERS, DOES THE REAPPORTIONER LOOK AT
THE EXTENT TO WHICH COUNTY LINES IN A REDISTRICTING PLAN
ATE BROKEN TO DETERMINE OR TO GIVE AN INDICATION AS TO
WHETHER OR NOT THERE MIGHT POSSIBLY BE GERRYMANDERING IN
THE PLAN?
A YES, THAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE FACTOR TO
LOOK AT.
.' a so THE COUNTY LINES rnOpr rnr sTANDpoINT oF
THE PROFESSIONAL REDISTRICTER IS A LINE WHICH HE ATTEMPTS
TO FOLLOW TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS CONSISTENT WITH O]'HER
CRITERIA THAT HAVE A GREATER CALLING ON HIS TALENT; TS
THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
T ION, PLEASE?
JUDGE PH I LL I PS_:
THANK YOU.
MAY I ASK.JUST ONE QUES.
YES.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.457'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONAFf P. O. Bor I'Ctolt
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R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 11:56 A.M.-
BY MS. WINNER:
a Do YorJ KNOW HOW MANY OTHER STATES IN THIS
COUNTRY DO NOT ALLOW THE SUBDIVISION OF COUNTIES IN THE
CREATION OF THEIR LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS? AND I DO NOT
MEAN PUTTING TOGETHER PIECES OF TWO COUNTIES, BUT RATHER
THE SUBDIVISION OF A S,I'NGLE COUNTY?
A NO; I Do NOT.
MS. WINNER: THANK YOU.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MR. SANDERS.
MR. LEONARD: MAY MR. SANDERS BE EXCUSED
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YES.
(WITNESS EXCUSED. )
MR. LEONARD: THE STATE CALLS LESLIE
BEVACQUA.
( WHER EUPON,
LESLIE BEVACQUA
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS: )
DIRECT EXAMINATION LIi57 A.M.
BY MS. HEENAN:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD,
PLEASE, AND YOUR ADDRESS?
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFFTCE, RALEto.t, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor rtlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J l.t,
A
A WOULD YOU SPELL YOLIR LAST NAME, PLEASE?
A B AS IN BOY, E-V AS IN VICTOR, A-C-Q-U-A.
A WIIAT I S YOUR PRESENT .JOB, MS, BEVACQUA?
A I AM THE ITPPOINTMENTS AIDE FOR BOARDS AND
COMMI SS IONS TO GOVERNOR .JAMES B. HUNT, tJR.
a AND HOI'/ LONG HAVE YOU HELD THAT POSITION?
A S I NCE FEBRUARY t, 19 8 l.
a DID YOU HOLD A POSITION IN THE GOVERNORTS
oFFICE PRIOR T0 FEBRUARY, 1983?
A YES, I DID.
A AND WHAT,IWAS THAT POSITION?
A PRIOR TO L981, BEGINNING JANUARY 1 OF 1981, I
SERVED AS DEPUTY SECRETARY FOR APPOINTMENTS TO THE GOVER-
NOR.
A WHAT ARE YOUR PRESENT DUTIES AS APPCTINTMENTS
AIDE TO THE GOVERNOR?
A AS APPOINTMENTS.AIDE TO THE GOVERNOR, I AM
RESPONSIBLE FOR HANDLING ALL OF THE GOVERNORIS APPOINT-
MENTS TO STATE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. IN THIS CAPACITY,
I REVIEW ALL OF THE POTENTIAL APPOINTEE5 AND I TALK WITH
APPLICANTS FOR POSITIOI'IS. i COMPILE DATA FOR THE GOVERN
l./I TH REGARD TO UPCOMING P0SI TIONS.
VACANCIES OCCUR WITH RESIGNATIONS FROM BOARDS.
VACANCIES OCCUR WHEN TERMS EXPIRE. I PUT ALL OF THAT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
rJrr d
DATA TOGETHER AND PRESENT TO THE GOVERNOR RECOMMENDA-
TiONS OF PERSONS TO FILL THOSE POSITIONS.
ONCE THOSE DECISIONS ARE MADE, IT IS THE
RESPONSIBILITY OF MY OFFICE TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH ALL
OF THE NECESSARY PAPERWORK TO GET ALL THE APPOINTEES IN
P LAC E.
A HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT FINDING APPROPRIATE PEOPLE
TO FILL THOSE VARIOUS VACANCIES AND APPOINTMENTS ON THE
BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED?
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT WE
GET APPOINTEES FOR BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. FORTUNATELY,
THERE ARE A GREAT DEAL OF PEOPLE IN THIS STATE THAT ARE
VERY INTERESTED IN SERVING THEIR STATE AND IN SERVING IN
SOME VOLUNTARY CAPACITY.
THEY COME TO US EITHER THROUGH CORRESPONDENCE,
THE.Y CALL THE OFFICE, THEY COME iO THE GOVERNORTS OFFICE
AND ACTUALLY SAY TTITV NNT INTERESTED IN SERVING IN SOME
wAY, IN WORKiNG ON A BOARD-OR COMMISSION. IN A LOT OF
THOSE TYPES OF INSTANCES, PEOPLE DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY
WHAT BOARD OR COMMISSION THEY WI,NT TO SERVE Ot,l, BUT HAVE
A GENERAL IDEA. FOR INSTANCE, THETR BACKGROUND MAY BE
IN EDUCATION. THEIR BACKGROUND MAY BE AN INTEREST IN THE
ENVIRONMENT AND THEY SIMPLY EXPRESS TO US AN INTEREST IN
SERVING ON A BOARD OR COMMISSION IN ONE OF THOSE AREAS.
WE MAINTAII.I THAT DATA IN OUR OFFICE AND FiLE
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT ANY TIME AN APPROPRIATE APPOINT-
MENT WOULD COME UP IN THAT AREA, WE WOULD CALL ON THAT
CRITERIA. ALSO WE WILL GIVE THE GOVERNORIS WESTERN OF-
FICE TO GET INPUT FROM THEM WITH REGARD TO RECOMMENDATION
OF POTENTiAL APPOINTEES FROM THE WESTERN PAF.T OF THE
STATE.
WE WORK WITH THE GOVERNORTS OFFICE OF MINORITY
AFFAIRS. I WORK VERY CLOSELY I,JITH BEN RUFFIN wHo GETS
TO ME THE NAMES OF POTENTIAL APPOINTEES OF MINORITIES IN
THE STATE. BEI'I MAINTAINS A LIST OF PEOPLE THROUGH HIS
CONTACTS AND THROUGH THE GROUPS THAT HE WORKS I,JITH, AND
HE AND I TALK ON A REGULAR BASIS TO TALK ABOUT POTENTIAL
APPOINTEES IN THAT AREA.
I^/E ALSO GO TO THE COUNTY
INTO A COUNTY AND MAKE SOME CONTACTS
EiTHER FRIENDS OR ASSOCIATES OF TTIE
LOCAL ELECTED OFFI C IAt.S THERE, WITH
THAT MAY WANT SOME INPUT V,'ITH REGARD
UP, FOR INSTANCE, IF IT AFFECTS ONE
ONE PARTICULAR AREA.
LEVEL. WE MAY GO
IN THE COUNTY WITH
GOVERNOR, WITH THE
ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE
TO A POSITION COMING
,PARTICULAR COUNTY OR
ADDITIONALLY, WE MAY GO TO PARTICULAR GROUPS
OF PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE AN INTEREST. FOR INSTANCE, TF
WE ARE DEALING WITH AN EDUCATIONAL BOARD, WE MAY GO TO
TEACHERS ORGANIZATIONS OR SUPERINTENDENTS ORGANIZATIONS.-
THOSE TYPES OF GROUPS. IF IT IS A BOARD THAT DEALS WITH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
fI i, a'
JUDICIARY, WE MAY GO TO SOME OF THE ATTORNEYS ORGANIZA-
TIONS AND I F IT DEALS I,JI TH SOMETHING, SAY, A BUI LDING
CODE COUNCIL THERE IVOULD BE CONTRACTORS SERVING ON THE
BOARD AND ARCHITECTS SERVING ON THE BOARD. SO WE MAY GO
TO SOME OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS FOR RECOMMENDATIONS.
A DOES YOUR OFFICE KEEP RECORDS OF ALL THE AP-
POINTMENTS MADE BY THE GOVERNOR?
A YES; WE DO.
A DOES THIS RECORD INCLUDE THE RACIAL IDENTITY
OF ALL THE APPOINTEES?
A YES; IT DOES.
A DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU WHAT HAS BEEI.I MARKED
AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT T7?
A NO.
MS. HEENAN:
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 17 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
LET ME GET YOU A COPY.
THE WITNESS: I Do HAVE EXHIBIT T7 Now.
BY,MS. HEENAN:
a woullD you TAKE A LOOK AT EXHTBIT t7 AND IDEN_
TIFY THAT FOR US?
A THIS IS THE--THE TITLE OF IT IS, 'IMINORITY
APPOINTMENTS AND EMPLOYMENT HIGHLIGHTS." THIS IS A
LISTING THAT WAS COMPILED AT THE END OF GOVERNOR HUNTIS
FIRST TERM IN OFFICE.-.JUST SIMPLY SOME HIGHLIGHTS OF
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
l-t. .r jl
Ai,tt
M I NOR I T I ES TI-IAT WERE EMPLOYED I N STATE GOVERNMENT AND \
ALSO THAT WERE SERVING ON BOARDS AND COMMI SS IONS.
A THIS WAS PREPARED DURING THE REGULAR COURSE OF
BUSINESS AT THE END OF GOVERNOR HUNTIS FIRST TERM?
YES;; IT WAS. THIS WAS COMPILED--IT IS A PART
OF OUR RECORDS AND IS IN OUR FILES. I THINK THE PERSONS
WHO COMPILED IT WAS THE GOVERNORIS OFFICE OF MI:NORITY
AFFAIRS AND THE PRESS OFFICE. IT IS A GENERAL COURSE OF
WORK TO PREPARE THESE TYPES; OF DOCUMENTS TO KEEP ON RECOR
OKAY. I F YOU WOUI.D LOOK OVER DEFENDANT I S
EX.HIBIT 19 AND IDENTIFY THAT FOR US?
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 19 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
THIS IS HIGHLIGHTS, THE SAME TYPE OF THING,
THAT SIMF'LY COVERS HIGHLIGHTS OF APPOINTEES TO BOARDS AND
COMMI SS IONS--IT DOES NOT COVER TUPI-OVMET.TT INFORMATION--OF
APPOINTEES DURING THE SECOND ADMINISTRATION WHICH WOULD B
THE BEGINNING OF 1981 TO THE PRESENT.
DID YOU PREPARE THIS AT MY REQUEST?
YES; I DID.
NOW, DO EXHIBITS 17 AND 19 TOGETHER LIST MEREL
BLACK APPOII\,ITEES?
YES; THEY DO.
A DO THEY LI ST ALL THE APPOII{TEES FOR THE FI RST
HUNT ADI4INISTRATION AND FOR THE 1981-82 PERIOD?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
9r:
A NO, THEY DO NOT.
COVERS MAJOR APPOINTMENTS BY
DURING BOTH TERMS IN OFFICE.
MA.JOR BOARDS IN THE STATE.
THIS INFORMATION SIMPLY
THE HUNT ADMINISTRATION
IT HIGHLIGHTS SOME OF THE
A WHAT CRITERIA IS USET, TO DETERMINE WHICH AP-
POINTMENTS WERE THE MOST SIGNIFICANT AND MOST IMPORTANT?
A THE CRITERIA WAS A JUDGMENT CALL ON MY PART
WITH REGARD TO THE INFORMATION I PREPARED. AND I AM SURE
I,JHOEVER PREPARED THE INFORMATION PRIOR TO ME, IT WAS A
JUDGMENT CALL ON THEIR PART.
ASICALLY, THE WAY THAT WE WOULD CLASSIFY MAJ
APPOINTMENTS oR MAL,OR BOARDS oR coMMISSIONS woULD BE THE
ONES THAT HAD THE GREATEST IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S LIVES AND
ON GOVERNMENT. THIS PARTICULAR GROUPING OF BOARDS--THESE
PERSONS WHO SERVE IN THESE POSITIONS ARE ACTUALLY IN
POLICY-MAKTNG pOSrTI0lS. O nr*uu* oF THESE BOARDS SET
POLICY IN THE STATE AND HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF INFLUENCE ON
DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
AS WE,LL, WE WOULD LOOK AT IN SELECTING WHAT I
wouLD CALL THE MAJOR BOARDS, yOU WOULD LOOK TO THE DIF-
FERENT DEPARTMENTS IN STATE GOVERNMENT AND SELECT THE
LEAD BOARDS FOR THOSE DEPARTMENTS. FOR INSTANCE, THE
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION AND THE STATE BOARD OF
EDUCATION WOULD BE VERY OBVIOUSLY AI.IONG THE MAJOR BOARDS.
THE DEPARTMENT OF HU}4AN RESOURCES, THE SOCIAL SERVICES
A P. O. Bor l,tl(S
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
iln
BOARD WOULD BE ONE OF THEIR MAJOR BOARDS. THESE WOULD
BE THE ONES THAT I WOULD SAY WOULD HAVE THE MOST INFLUENC
IN THE DEPARTMENTS.
A HAS THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION MADE A COMMIT-
MENT OR EXPRESSED AS A GOAL TNCREASING THE PERCENTAGE OF
BLACKS THAT PRESENTLY SERVE ON GUBERNATORIAL APPOINTED
BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS?
A I WOULD SAY NO IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVE NOT
SET A qUOTA. WE l-iAVE NOT SAID THAT I^/E NEED TO GET A
CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF APPOINTEES TO BOARDS AND COMMISSION
AND SET UP A QUOTA SYSTEM.
WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS TRIED TO DO IN
THE APPOINTMENTS PROCESS IS TO INVOLVE BOTH BLACKS AND
WOMEN WHO WHEN GOVERNOR HUNT CAME INTO OFFICE WERE UNDER-
REPRESENTED ON BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. WE HAVE TRIED TO
GET.BLACKS AND WOMEN INVOLVED IN BOARDS THAT WOULD HAVE
A MAJOR IMPACT ON WHAT I^IAS GOING ON IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
TO INCREASE THE PERCENTAGE9 WOULD NOT BE REALLY AS EF-
FECTIVE AS GETTING THESE PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHI
WHERE THEY COUI]D HAVE INFLUENCE ON MAJOR BOARDS. TO IN.
CREASE THE PERCENTAGES, YOU COULD SIMPLY GO IN AND ADD TO
SOME OF THE BOARDS THAT DO NOT HAVE THE KIND OF POLICY.
MAKING THAT SOME OF THESE DO AND UP YOUR PERCENTAGES, BUT
THAT WOULD NOT IMPROVE THE BATANCE OF BLACKS AND WOMEN ON
BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS WITH REGARD TO THEIR INFLUENCE.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
,iJ ij,;
THEREFORE, WHAT WE HAVE TRIED TO DO DURING
THIS ADMINISTRATION IS TO BE SURE THAT BLACKS AND WOMEN
ARE BEING INVOLVED AT EVERY LEVEL, BUT PARTICULARLY IN
THE POSITIONS THAT ARE POI.ICY-MAKING BOARDS.
YOU TEST I FITED THAT SOME BOARDS AND COMMI SS I ONS
DO INDEED HAVE MORE POLITICAL IMPACT. CAN YOU GIVE SOME
EXAMPLES OF WHICH BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS MIGHT BE MORE
POLITICALY ACTIVE AND EFFECTIVE AND ALSO INCLUDE-.WELL,
WHY DONIT YOU ANSWER THAT ONE FIRST. COULD YOU GIVE US
SOME EXAMPLES?
OKAY. THERE ARE tA NUMBER THAT I WOULD SAY
THAT WOULD BE EXTREMELY--HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF AFFECT ON
GOVERNMENT. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THE STATE SOCIAL
SERViCES COMMISSION DEALS A LOT WITH-.THE\'HANDLE LEGIS-
LATIVE ISSUES, THAT IS, THEY PREPARE LEGISLATIbN FOR
CHANGES IN THE STRUCTURE IN THE OTPNNTMEruT OF SOCIAL SER-
VICES,,:WITH ANYTHING THAT DEALS WITH THE ASSISTANCE PRO-
GRAMS WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT:-THAT KIND OF THING. FOR
INSTANCE, THE STA.TE BOARD OF SOCIAL SERVICES HAD SEVERAL
CHANGES THAT CAME UP IN THE LEGISLATURE THIS TIME WHICH
THEY PROPOSED LEGISLATION.
THE COUNCIL ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN WOULD BE
ONE. THEY ACTUALLY WORK WI[Hi.A NUMBER OF AGENCI ES ACROSS
THE STAIi, WITH NOT ONLY STATE AGENCIEg BUT PRIVATE AGEN-
CIES TO IMPROVE THE POSITIONS OF WOMEN IN THE STATE.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4s71
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
9
^.)
iti
THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION WHICH, OF
COURSE, ADOPTS ALL OF THE RULES AND REGULATIONS AND SETS
POLICY FOR THE STATE WITH REGARD TO EDUCATIONAL ISSUES;
THE STATE BOARD OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES WHICH DOES THE SAME
TYPE OF THING FOR THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE SYSTEM IN THE
STATE. THE ANNUAL TESTING COMMISSION WOULD BE ONE BECAUSE
THAT IS THE GROUP THAT ACTUALLY REVIEWS THE TESTING PRO.
CEDURES FOR THE STATE WHICH WAS IMPLEMENTED BY THE LEGIS-
LATURE SEVERAL YEARS AGO. THEY ACTUALLY REVIEW THE TEST,
GO TO THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION AND MAKE RECOMMENDA-
TIONS WITH REGARD TO WHAT TYPES OF TESTS WOULD BE USED.
THE DAY CA.RE LI CENS ING COMMI SS ION ACTUALLY
LICENSE DAY CARE FACILITIES WITH REGARD TO WHETHER OR NOT
THEY MEET THE STANDARDS SET BY THE STATE; THE STATE
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD WHICH WCRKS WITH THE DEPARTMEN
OF COMMERCE TO BRING NEW INDUSTR; INTO THE STATE.
A ARE THERE ANY BLACKS PERSONS SERVING ON THESE
BOARDS ?
MS. GUINIER: I WOULD LIKE TO STATE AN
OBJECTION.TO THE ENTIRE LINE OF QUESTIONING THAT THE
COURT HAS HEARD ON THE GROUNDS OF RELEVANCY. WE CONTEND
THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN EITHER THE STATUTE OR THE LEGIS-
LATIVE HISTORY OF SECTION TWO THAT INDICATES WHETHER THE
GOVERNOR OR OTHER EXECUTIVES IN A PARTICULAR.JURISDICTION
OF WHITES TO BLACKS _TO BE RELEVANT TO THE QUESTION OF
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.) .Jt rJ
PARTICIPATION BY BL.ACKS IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS. IN
PARTICULAR FOR THE RECORD, WE WOULD LIKE TO INDICATE
THAT THE LEGISLATIVE HISTORY SFECIFICALLY IDENTIFIES
WHETHER BLACKS HAVE BEEN ELECTED TO PUBLIC OFFICE IN THE
.JUR I SDI CTION AND DOES NOT STATE ANYTHING ABOUT THE E):TENT
OF APPOINTMENTS.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
BY MS. HEENAN:
OVERRULED.
ARE THERE ANY BLACKS PRESENTLY SERVING ON
THOSE TYPE OF BOARDS? I WOULD ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY TO
REFER TO THE EXHTBITS IN ANSWERING THAT QUESTION.
A YES; THERE ARE A NUMBER oF BLACKS IN THESE
POSITIONS. THE STATE SOCIAL SERVICES COMMISSION WHICH
IS MADE UP OF 11 MEMBERS: THERE ARE THREE BLACKS SERVING
ON THAT BOARD. .JIM RICHARDSON FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY
HAD.SERVED AS CHAIRMAN OF THAT AOENO FOR SIX YEARS. HIS
TERM EXPIRED RECENTI-V AT.TO HE HAS BEEN REPLACED BY GEORGE
BATTLE WHO IS ALSO BLACK FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY AS CHAIR
MAN OF THAT BOARD.
THE COUNCIL ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN BOARD I5
MADE UP OF 20 MEMBERS. THERE ARE SIX BLACKS SERVING ON
THAT BOARD. THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMITTEE IS A BLACK,
MS. RUBY JONES FROM GUILFORD COUNTY.
THE STATE TEXTBOOK COMMISSION WHICH IS NOT ONE
THAT I MENTIONED IN DESCRIPTION, BUT THE STATE TEXTBOOK
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ri t.
COMMISSION WHICH DOES REVIEW TEXTBOOKS FOR THE STATE:
THERE ARE THREE BLACKS SERVING ON THAT COMMISSION. IT
IS A 14-MEMBER BOARD.
THE STATE PAROLES COMMISSION WHICH IS MADE UP
OF FIVE MEMBERS: THIS GROUP ACTUALLY REVIEWS THE PAROLES
PROCESS, DETERMINES WI-iETHER PEOPLE WI LL BE GRANTED PAROLE
THERE ARE TWO BLACKS SERVING ON THAT BOARD: REVEREND
JOEY JOI..INSON AND WALTER JOHNSON. WALTER JOHNSON IS THE
CHAIRI'iAN OF THAT COMMISSION.
THE STATE INMATE GRIEVANCE COMMISSION WHICH
ACTUALLY WORKS WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS IN RE-
VIEWING ANY SORT OF GRIEVANCES THAT COME FROM INMATES IS
A FIVE.MEMBER BOARD. THERE ARE THREE BLACKS SERVING ON
THAT COMMISSION.
THE MEDICAL CARE COMMISSION WHICH ADOPTS PLANS
FOR, THE HOSPITAL SYSTEMS WITH *U'O*' TO THE MAIN]'ENANCE
AND CONSTRUCTIOT\I OF l-lo"iTALS ALSO ADOPT ALL REGULATIONS
REGARDING EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES. THERE ARE THREE
BLACKS SERVING ON THAT COMMISSION INCLUDING DR. DUDLEY
STOVALL OF FORSYTH COUNTY, DR. ORLANDO STOVALL OF WAYNE
COUNTY AND VIVIAN CHAMBERS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY.
a
CHAMBERS ?
IS VIVIAN CHAMBERS THE WIFE OF MR. GEORGE
A YES; TO MY KNOWLEDGE,
THE COMMISSION ON THE
SHE I S.
FUTURE OF NORTH CAROLINA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.Jr
WHICH WAS SET UP 18 MONTI-IS AGO TO ACTUALLY REVIEW AND
MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS REGARDING THE WHOLE DIRE:CTIoN THAT
THE STATE WILL BE GOING IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS, THE VICE-
CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMISSION WAS MS. LIBBIE KOONTZ, DR.
LIBBIE KooNTZ, WHo IS A BLACK WOMAN FROM RowAN COUNTY.
THE CF{AIRMAN OF ONE OF THE TASK FORCE GROUPS--THERE WERE
FOUR TASK FORCE GROUPS ON THAT COMMISSION--ONE OF THOSE
CHAIRPERSONS WAS NATHAN GARRETT WHO IS A BLACK MAN FROM
DURHAM COUNTY.
THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTI ONS hII-II CH ACTUALLY
SETS UP ELECTION PROCEDURES FOR THE STATE, THERE ARE TWO
BLACK MEMBERS Of: THAT FIVE-MEMBER COMMISSION: WILLIAM
MARSH FROM DURHAM AND MS. ELLORY WILLIAMS FROI4 MECKLEN.
BURG COUNTY.
THE STATE BOARD OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES-_AS I
MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE ARE FOU; BLACKS SERVING ON THAT
COMMISSION. THE ANNUAL TESTING COMMI SS.}ON WHICH I HAVE
ALSO EXPLAiNED EARLIER, THERE ARE THREE BLACKS'SERVING
ON THAT COMMISSION. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER EXAMPLES
WHICH I THINK ARE REFLECTED IN THE EXHIBIT, BUT THAT KIND
OF HIGHLIGHTS SOI\IE OF THOSE.
A CAN YOU TELL US BY NAME WHO IS SERVING ON THE
INMATE GRIEVANCE BOARD?
A YES, I CI\N. THE BLACK MEMBERS ON THE INMATE
GRIEVANCE COMMISSION_ ARE MR. J.G. BUTTERFIELD, DR.
E P. O.601 2!'tGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
{t
J j j
ELIZABETH STOVALL, AND REVEREND GEORGE BATTLE.
NOW, DO SOME OF THESE EIOARDS ACTUALLY PROPOSE
OR RECOMMEND LEG I SLAT IOI.J TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?
A YES, THEY DO; A NUMBER OF THEM DO. FOR IN-
STANCE, I KNOW FIRST-HAND THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL
SERVICES HAS. I KNOW THAT THE COUNCIL ON THE STATUS OF
WOMEN HAS AND NOT ONLY HITVE THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION, BUT
THEY HAVE BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE OF OTHER LEGISLATION THAI'
WAS INTRODUCED. THE STATE BOARD OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES
AND THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION ON A REGULAR BASIS SUB-
M.IT LEGISLATION THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES ON THERE.
MANY OFJ THESE BOARDS DO. THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS
WOULD PRESENT PROPOSALS TO THE LEGISLATURE.
DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU UEFENDANTSI E}:HIBIT 18?
A NO, I DON'T.
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 1B WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
WOUI-D YOU I DENTI FY THAT, PLEASE, FOR THE RECOR
YES; THIS IS A COPY OF A COMPUI.ER PRINTOUT OF
ALL THE BLACKS SERVING ON BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS THAT ARE
APPOINTED BY TI]E GOVERNOR. AND WHEN I SAY APPOINTED BY T
GOVERNOR, TT IS NOT ONLY BLACKS APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR
BUT JUST THE BOARDS THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS APPOINTMENT
AUTHORITY TO. SO THIS WOUI-D NOT COVER ALL THE STATE BOARD
AND COMMISSIONS BUT_ONLY THOSE THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS
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AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
93s
APPOINTMENTS TO. THIS WAS PREPARED AT THE REQUEST OF
COUNSEL, AND WE KEEP IN OUR. OFFICE ON A COMPUTER SYSTEM
AtL APPOINTEES TO BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS BY BOARD. THIS
IS .JUST A PRINTOUT OF THE BLACKS SERViNG IN THOSE POSI-
TIONS AND IT WAS DONE ON LIULY L2 OF THIS YEAR.
MS. HEENAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE T
oFFER INTO EVIDENCE DEFENDANTTS EXHIBITS t7, 1g AND 19.
MS. GUINIER: WE OBJECT ON THE GROUNDS
OF RELEVANCY.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED, AND THE EXHIBIT
WILL BE ADMITTED.
MS. HEENAN:
HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTiONS.
(DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 17, 18
AND I9 WERE RECEIVED IN
EVI DENCE. )
THAl.iK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I
C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N 12:15 P.M
BY MS. GUINIER:
A MS. BEVACQUA, YOU TESTIFIED, I BELIEVE, THAT
THE GOVERNOR GOES THROUGH LOCAL POLITICAL SUPPORTERS OR
THAT YOU TALK TO LOCAL POLITICA.L SUPPORTERS WHEN YOU ARE
IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING APPOINTMENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I AI'I NOT SURE I^,HETHER I USED THE TERM POLITICA
SUPPORTERS. I THINK I USED, IILOCAL PEOPLEII THAT THE
F P. O. eox ralt!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J';t,r
GOVERNOR HAS WORKED WITH ON VARIOUS THINGS. YES; I DO.
A AND DO THESE PEOPLE TEND TO BE SUPPORTERS OF
THE GOVERNOR?
A YES.
A MOST OF THESE PEOPLE, IN FACT, ARE THE CHAIR-
PERSONS OF THE LOCAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY?
A NOT NECESSARILY; WE DEAL WITH A NUMBER OF DIF.
FERENT PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY.
A AND ARE ANY OF THESE PEOPLE--ARE THESE PEOPLE
CALLED IN YOLJR TERMINOLOGY IIKEYSII"
THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN OUR TERMINOLOGY THAT
I WOULD SAY AP.E KEY PEOPLE FOR THE GOVERNOR IN THE COUNTY
YES, SOME OF THEM I{OULD BE TERMED AS KEYS.
a Do you usE THE TERM ilKEySll TO REFER TO LOCAL
PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE DISCUSSED POLITICAL APPOINTMENTS
WITH?
A soME, I Do: soME I woulD usE orHER--r MEAN,
THERE MAY BE OTHER TYPES OF PEOPLE.
A ARE ANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU REFER TO AS
''KEYS'' BLACK?
A YES.
A AND WHO IS THAT?
A REVEREND E.D. WILKINS FROM ROPER; LEWIS
RANDOLPH FROM WASHINGTON; .JUSTINE CLEMENTS FROM DURHAM.
I DONIT HAVE THAT LIST WITH ME, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.'.. t
OF BLACKSi YES.
A CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHERS?
A I WOULD HAVE TO THINK THROUGH COUNTY BY COUNTY
RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD; NO. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE
KEY PEOPLE THAT I TALK TO ON A SOML.WHAT REGULAR BASIS.
THERE ARE OTHERS, BUT I DONIT HAVE THOSE NAMES OFF THE
TOP OF MY HEAD.
a
A
a
A
a
DO YOU KNOW--IN WHAT COUNTY IS ROPER?
ROPER IS IN WASHINGTON COUNTY.
AND IN WHAT COUNTY IS WASHINGTON?
WASHINGTON IS IN BEAUFORT COUNTY.
DO YOU KNOW I^'I-IETHER MS. CLEMENTS FROM DURHAM
NO; SHE IS NOT.
IT IS TRUE, IN FACT, THAT THE GOVERNOR DOES
MEMBERS OF ALL EXECUfTVe BRANCH BOARDSi IS
IS THE I.JIFE OF HOWARD CLEMENTS?
A
a
NOT,APPC}INT
THAT TRUE?
A YES, THAT IS TRUE.
AND HE DOES NOT APPOINI' MEMBERS OF ALL THE
EXECUTIVE COMMI SSIONS?
A I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU REFER TO
AS IIEXECUI'IVE COMMISSIONS.II I WOULD REFER TO THE BOARDS
THAT THE GOVERNOR DOES APPOINT TO AS EXECUTIVE BOARDS
AND COMMISSIONS. IF YOU CAN GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF.-I AM
NOT FAMILIAR WITH ANYTHING THAT I WOULD SAY IS AN EXECUTI
a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFIICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BOARD THAT THE GOVERNOR DOES NOT MAKE APPOINTMENTS TO.
A DOES THE GOVERNOR, FOR EXAMPLE, MAKE APPOINT-
MENTS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF LABORIS APPRENTICESHIP COUNCIL
. A NO.
A DCES HE MAKE APPOINI'MENTS TO THE DEPARTMENT
OF LABORIS INDUSTRY ADVISORY BOARD?
A NO..
A WOULD YOU CONSIDER THOSE TWO EXECUTIVE BRANCH
BOARDS ?
A YES; NOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR TERMINOLOGY IS
YES,; THOSE ARE..I THINK ,THE APPOI NTEES TO THOSE ARE
HANDLED BY THE COMMISSIONER OF LABOR WHICH WOULD BE AN-
OTHER MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL OF STATE. I WOULD AGREE THAT
HE DOES NOT MAKE APPOINTMENTS TO ALL EXECUTIVE BRANCH
APPO I NTMENTS.
. A IS IT TRUE T.HAT THE AGENCIES THAT ARE NOT RUN
UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF THE GOVERNOR HAVE NOT MADE AS
MANY APPOINTMENTS TO BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AS THE GOVER-
NOR HAS WHO ARE BLACK?
A I DO NOT KNOW. WE DO NOT KEEP RECORDS. OUR
OFFICE ONLY MAINTAINS RECORDS OF THOSE BOARDS THAT THE
GOVERNOR MAKES APPOINTMENTS TO, SO I DO NOT HAVE ACCESS
TO THAT INFORMATION.
a H/rVE YOU EVER HAD ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION?
A I HAVE NEVER REQUESTED THAT INFORMATION. I
A P. O. Bor 2tlaB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J'u *.1
SUPPOSE I COULD GET IT IF I WENT IN AND ASKED FOR IT,
BUT I HAVE NOT.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE NUMBER OF BLACKS
THAT THE COI4MI SS IONER OF LABOR HAS APPOI NTED?
A NO, I AM NOT.
A DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THE
COI.,IMISSIONER OF LABOR HAS APPOINTED MORE THAN TWO PERCENT
OF HIS APPOINTMENTS--.
MS. HEENAIJ: (INTERPOSING) YOUN HONOR,
I OBJECT. SHE HAS ALREADY TESTIFTED THAT SHE IS NOT
FA.MI LIAR WITH THE INFORMATION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I DONIT KNOW EXACTLY WHERE
YOU ARE GOING WITH THAT QUESTION, COUNSEL. WE WILL HEAR
YOU ON THIS ONE, BUT IF YOU ARE SIMPLY ASKING A PERSON
WHO HAS SAID SHE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACT---
, MS. GUINIER: (TruTCRPOSING) I WILL RE-
PHRASE THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DID YOU EVER REVIEW A COMPARISON JF NINE EXECU
TIVE OFFICIALS THAT WAS MADE BY THE NORTH CAROLINA CENTER
FOR PUBLIC POLICY RESEARCH?
A OKAY. I HAVE BEEN GIVEN A COPY OF PRELIMINARY
INFORMATION THAT THEY ARE COMPILING; YES.
A AND DID THAT INFORMATION INCLUDE APPOINTMENTS
THAT \./ERE MADE BY THE COMMI SS IONER OF LABOR?
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
y ,;.*
A MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT DID. I DONIT
HAVE IT IN FRONT OF ME AND I DONIT RECALL.
a AliD DID THAT DOCUMENT INCLUDE---
MS. HEENAN: (INTERPOSTruE) YOUR HONOR,
I OB.JECT. I F COUNSEL IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO QUESTION
THE WITNESS ABOUT A STUDY ONI A PIECE OF PAPER,I SUGGEST
YOt' EITHER SHOW IT TO HER OR DISCONTINUE THE QUESTIONS.
THE WITNESS DOES i'TOT HAVE IT. SHE iAN'T KNOI^J WI-|AT IS IN
THE REPORT.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: WOULD YOU INFORM THE COURT
V/H.ERE YOU ARE GOING WITH THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING--WHAT
IS YOUR PURPOSE IN PUR.SUING IT? YOU ARE ENTITLED ON
CROSS-EXAMINATION TO IMPEACH OR TO BRING OUT MATTERS
THAT SUPPORT YOUR CASE. THIS WITNESS HAS TESTIFIED THAT
SHE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE NUMBER OF APPOINTEES MADE BY
THE .PARTICULAR AGENCY. AND , ,o*u I, THAT *HAT YoU ARE
TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE
"
THAT PERHAPS SHE DOES HAVE THAT
KNOWLEDGE ?
MS. GUINIER: OR THAT SHE HAS HAD THAT
KNOWLEDGE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IS THAT FOR THE PUR-
POSE OF IMPEACHING HER CREDIBILITY?
MS. GUINIER: NO, YoUR HONOR. THAT lS
FOR THE PURPOSE OF HELPING TO REFRESH HER RECOLLECTION
SO THAT WE CAN BRING _OUT SOME OF THOSE OTHER APPOINTMENTS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
t) -.t t,t
THAT WERE MADE BY OTHER MEMBERS OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH
THAT WERE NOT BLACK.
JUDGE PHiLLIPS: WELL, YoU WILL HAVE A
CHANCE WHEN THE STATEIS CASE IS OVER TO COME BACK WITH
EVIDENCE, POSSIBLY. AND IN REBUTTAL,IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE
AS TO THE NUMBER OF APPOINTMENTS MADE BY OR. NOT MADE BY
OTHER DEPARTMENTS, IT SEEMS TO ME THE APPROPRIATE TIME TO
TRY TO GET THAT BEFORE THE COURT WOULD BE AT THAT TIME.
MS. GUINIER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
iJUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU ARE TRYING TO IM-
PE.ACH HER, THAT IS ANOTHER MATTER.
MS. GUINIER: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : YES.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A I HAVE HANDED YOU WHAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 85. DO YOU NOTICE THAT MARKING IN
THE CORNER?
A YES.
A AND THIS IS A TABLE THA| WAS PUT TOGETHER BY
THE NORTH CAROLINA CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY RESEARCH;
IS IT NOT?
A TO MY KNOWLEDGE IT IS, ALTHOUGH I AM NOT SURE
THAT IT IDENTIFIES THAT ON HERE. I HAVE SEEN THE DOCUMEN
BEFORE AND I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THIS WAS PREPARED BY
THEM. BUT I DONIT SEE ANYTHING ON HERE THAT WOULD INDICAT
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBlNG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
T;),
T HAT.
MS. HEENAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT.
THIS WITNESS IS NOT QUALIFIED TO IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT.
SHE NEiTHER PREPARED IT NOR ASSISTED IN PREPARING IT, AND
SHE HAS MERELY SEEN IT BEFORE.
HER AND
HAS BEEN
SHE
NO
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS SIMPLY LAID BEFORE
IS BEING ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. THER
OFFER OF IT INTO EVIDENCE.
I T SEEMS TO ME, I F I .MAY S4y ,rnar GI vEN THE
GRAVITY OF THE ISSUE AND THE NATURE OF THE ISSUE BEFORE
US THAT WE ARE .JOUSTING AT THIS POINT OVER A VERY, VERY
MINOR POINT. MY DISPOSITION FRANKLY IS TO ASK COUNSEL TO
BE A LITTLE MORE SPECIFIC ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT THE PURPOSE
OF THIS PARTICULAR LINE OF INQUIRY IS. WE DONTT WANT TO
CUT ANYBC,DY OFF II.I PURSUING SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE HELP-
FUL TO THE COURT.
MS. GUINIER:.
ARE TRYING TO DO AND I WI
THE COURTIS POINT--IS TO
SEEN THIS TABLE, THAT IT
SHE VERI FY ITS FiNDINGS.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
CESSION THAT YOU HAVE SEEN
THE WITI.IESS:
MAKE THE CONCESSION
_THAT
I
YOUR HONOR, ALL THAT WE
LL BE VERY BRIEF--I UNDERSTAND
ESTABLISH THAT THIS WITNESS HAS
WAS PRESENTED TO HER AND THAT
WOULD YOU MAKE THAT CON-
IT?
NO, I WILL NOT. t WILL
HAVE SEEN THE DOCUMENT. I HAV
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGI{, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
t:J\
NEVER VERIFIED ITS FINDINGS. I DO NOT HAVE THE IN-
FORMATION TO VERIFY THE FINDINGS AND HAVE. NEVER VERIFIED
THE INFORMATION. I HAVE JUST SIMPLY SEEN THE DOCUMENT.
I RECEIVED A COPY IN THE MAIL SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A YOU HAVE TESTiFIED THAT WHEN YOU WANT TO FILL
APPOINTMENTS IN A PARTICULAR COUNTY YOU GO TO THE PEOPLE
IN THE COUNTY THAT HAVE EITHER BEEN INFLUENTIAL IN THE
GOVERNOR ' S SUPPORT OR WHO ARE IMPORTANT FOR OTHER REASONS
I S THAT CORRECT?
I THINK I TESTIFIED THAT IN SOME CASES, IF WE
ARE LOOKING FOR.-IF THERE IS A POSITION COMING UP THAT
HAS A PARTICULAR INTEREST OR IMPACT ON THAT PARTICULAR
COUNTY, YES; SOMETIMES WE WILL GO TO PEOPLE IN THAT COUNT
IT COULD BE ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE DEPENDING ON WHAT PART-
CULAR BOARD IT IS. S:ME BOARDS HAVE TO DO WITH A PARTI_
CULAR COUNTY, OR SOME BOARDS HAVE TO DO WITH A PARTICULAR
REGION OF THE STATE, THER.EFORE WE WILL WANT PEOPLE FROM
THAT AREA TO HAVE SOME INPUT IF THEY WANTED TO WITH RE-
GARD TO RECOMMENDATIONS.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION FOR A MINUTE TO DE-
FENDANTIS EXHIBIT 17 AND ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE COLUMN
ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE WHERE THE NAME I'CLIFTON JOHNSON'I
APPEARS?
A UH-HUH.
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
U
_! i-'-
A HAS CLIFTON JOHNSON BEEN APPOINTED TO SOME
OTHER POSITION?
YES, HE HAS.
a AND TO WHOM DID yOU GO I,JHEN HIS__TO WHOM DID
THE GOVERNOR GO WHEN HIS POSITION WAS VACANT?
A I DO NOT KNOW. JUDGESHIPS-.ALTHOUGH MY OFFICE
HAS SOME DEALING WITH THE APPOINTMENT OF LJUDGESHIPS, THEY
ARE HANDLED DIRECTLY BY THE GOVERNOR'S LEGAL COUNSEL, JAC
COZART. JACK IS MUCH MORE FAMILIAR WITH THAT INFORMATION
AND JACK I S THE ACTUAL ONE WHO WOULD HAVE MADE ANY CON-
TACTS ABOUT MR. JOHNSON'S BACKGROUND OR TO GET INPUT FOR
THAT POSITION. SO I REALLY DONTT KNOW.
A I AM TALKING ABOUT THE VACANCY
UP WI.IEN MR. JOHNSON WAS APPOINTED TO SOME
TI1AT WAS OPENED
OTHER POSITION.
FOR THE SUPERIOA OH, THE VACANCY THAT OPENED UP
COURT .JUDGESHI P:'
a THAT IS CORRECT.
A OKAY. WITH REGARD TO JUDGESHIPS, THEY ARE DON
IN TWO OR THREE ,DIFFERENT WAYS,AND I AM NOT SURE BECAUSE
THIS ONE WAS DONE WITHIN LIKE TWO WEEKS AFTER I CAMEI INTO
THE OFFICE IN 1981. I BELIEVE IT WAS EARLY IN 19B1 THAT
MR. JOHNSON WENT TO THE COURT OF APPEALS.
SUPERIOR COURT.JUDGESHIPS, AS I RECALL, THEY
ARE DONE--THERE IS A JUDICIAL NOMINATING COMMITTEE IN THE
STATE THAT MAKES NOMINATIOI.IS FOR SOME OF THE JUDGESI.IIPS.
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ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
U -;.:
ALSO, WE GO TO THE ST'ATE BAR AND ASK--OR TO THE LOCAL
BAR AND ASK THEM. QUITE FRANKLY, BECAUSE I DEAL SO IN-
FREQUENTLY WITH JUDGESHIPS, I CANIT REMEMBER. FOR DIS-
TRICI.AND SUPERIOR COURT JUDGES, SOME WE GO TO THE COUNTY
BAR ASSOCIATION AND ASK FOR THEIR RECOMMENDATiONS. SOME
GO THROUGH THE JUDICIAL NOMINATING COMMITTEE. IT IS MY
RECOLLECTION THAT SUPERIOR COURT .JUDGES ARE DONE THROUGH
A LJUDI CIAL NOMINATING COMMI TTEE. THAT COMMI TTEE MAKES
RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE GOVERNOR AND THEN HE LOOKS AT THEI
RECOMMENDAT IONS.
. A IS IT NOT TRUE THAT, IN FACT, YOU OR YOUR
PREDECESSOR CONSULTED WITH THE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COM-
MITTEE FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO FILL THiS VACANCY?
A I DO NOT KNOW. I DID NOT CONSULT WITH THE
DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE ON THIS VACANCY AT.JD I DO
NOT KNOW WHETHER MY PREDECESSOR OTO.
A A BLACK PERSON WAS NOT APPOINTED TO FILL THE
VACANCY, IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DO NOT KNOW. I CANIT REMEMBER. THERE ARE
SO MANY THINGS THAT COME THROUGH. I DO NOT HAVE THAT
INFORMATION BEFORE ME AND I DO NOT RECALL WHO FILLED THAT
VACANCY. ,.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: WE WI LL RECESS UNT I L 1 : JO.
(rnr pRocEEDING WAS RECESSED AT t2:30 p.M., rO
RECONVENE 3T 1:10 p.M.r THIS SAME DAy.)
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9;
F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 1:]O P.M.
(WUr REUPoN,
LESLIE BEVACQUA
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
(RESUMEp)
BY MS. GUINIER:
A MS. BEVACQUIT, I D I RECT YOUR ATTENT I ON TO
DEFENDANTIS E}:HIBIT 19.
A YES.
A THI S TABLE THAT YOU PUT TOGETHER DOES NOT
INCLUDE EMPLOYMENT HIGHLIGHTS, DOES IT?
i
A NO, IT DOES NOT.
a DrREcrrNG youR ATTENTio* Now ro
'LATNTTFF's
EXHi BI T T7 .
A YES.
A TIiI S ,TABLE DOES INCLUDE EMPLOYMENT HIGHLIGHTS?
A YES, IT DOES.
A AND THIS TABLE DOES NOT REFLECT PEOPLE WHO
HAVE LEFT S iNCE I9 B 1?
A YOIJ MEAN EXHIBIT 17 DOES NOT REFLECT PERSONS
WHO HAVE LEFT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONAF P. O. 8or 2ilA!
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A NO; EXHIBIT L7 IS JUST SIMPLY HIGHLIGHTS
FROM THE GOVERNORIS FIRST TERM IN OFFICE.
A AND IN FACT, SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT
WHO ARE ON THIS PARTICULAR LIST I^/ERE NoT REPLACED BY
B L.AC KS ?
A I DO NOT KNOW
WITH PERSONNEL. THAT IS
STRICTLY WITH BOARDS AND
SONNEL MATTERS.
SIMPLY BECAUSE I DO NOT DEAL
NOT A PART OF MY JOB. I DEAL
COMMI SS I ONS AI.iD NOT WI TH PER-
MS. GUINIER:
. MS. HEENAN:
ON REDIRECT.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. HEENAN:
. a oN cRoss-EXAMINAT ION, l.nr. BEVACQUA, yOU RE-
CALLED THREE BLACK ''KEYS, '' OR KEY INDIVIDUALS WHO THE
GOVERNOR'S OFFICE CONSULTED.IN MAKING APPOINTMENTS. ARE
THERE MORE THAN T,HREE?
YES; THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THEM. I WORK WITH
BEN RUFFIN WHO IS THE GOVERNORIS MINORITY AFFAIRS OFFICER
VERY FREQUENTLY, AND BEN DEALS MORE DIRECTLY WITH THE
BLACK KEYS THAN I DO, IF YOU WANT TO USE THE TERM IIKEYSII-
THE KEY BL.ACK LEADERS..THAN I DO. CONSEQUENTLY, THOSE
NAMES ARE NOT AS--I D-O NOT RECALL THOSE NAMES AS QUICKLY
I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTION
I HAVE JUST A FEW QUESTION
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. tor 2.r.l!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
5u f"
AS SOME OTHER NAMES I MIGHT DEAL WITH SIMPLY BECAUSE
I MEET WITH BEN ON A REGULAR BASIS. HE DEALS WITH THOSE
PEOPLE MORE FREQUENTLY THAN I DO.
MS. HEENAN: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTION
. JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MS. BEVACQUA.
MR. LEONARD: THE STATE CALLS PHILLIP
ELLIS.
(wI TNESS EXCUSED. )
( wnrne uPoN,
PHILt.IP H. ELLIS
' ,1' CALLED AS A WI TNESS, DULY SI^'ORN, AND TEST I F I ED AS
FOLLOWS: )
DIRECT EXAMINATION L:35 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
. a woulD You STATE YOUR Oraa NAME, PLEASE?
A PHILLIP HENRY ELLI S.
a WHERE DO YOU LM?
A TARBORO, NORTH CAROLINA.
A ARE YOU THE SHERIFF OF EDGECOMBE COUNTY?
A YES, SI R.
A WERE YOU SUBPOENAED BY THE STATE TO APPEAR
HERE TODAY?
A YES, SIR; I WAS.
a How TALL XRE YOU?
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
\)J$
A I AM FIVE FEET, EIGHT INCHES.
a How MUCH DO YOU WEIGH?'..
A APPP.OXIMATELY 17O POUNDS.
A HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SHERIFF OF EDGECOMBE
COUNTY ?
A ALMOST 10 YEARS.
A WHEN WERE YOU FIRST ELECTED ?
A IN 1974.
A WHEN DID WE FIRST CONTACT YOU WITH RESPECT TO
TEST I FY ING AT THI S TRIAL?
APPROXIMATELY 5:OO P.M. YESTERDAY AFTERNooN.
a Do you RECALL Tl'tE 1gg2 PRIMARY ELECTIONS AND
GENERAL ELECTION IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY?
A YES, SIR; I DO.
A WTRE YOU A CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE IN THOSE ELEC_
TIONS?
A YES, SIR; I WAS.
A TELL THE COURT WH/TT YOUR PRACTICE IS WITH
RESPECT TO YOUR ACTIVITIES ON ELECTION DAY.
A OKAY; IF I NOT A CANDIDATE, DO NOT HAVE OP-
POSITION AND AM NOT ON TrlE BALLOT, I WI LL ACCOMpAl.ty AT
THE REQUEST OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS
THE BOARD MEMBERS TO ALL THE POLLING PLACES IN EDGECOMBE
COUNTY. THE REASON FOR THAT IS TO HAVE A RADIO IN A
PATROL CAR SO THAT TlE CHAIRMANIS OFFICE CAN GET IN TOUCH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J t,t "i
WITH HIM IF THEY H/TVE SOME QUESTION THEY WANT TO ASK,
SO THAT THEY C/TN CALL ME AND THEN I CAN HAVE HIM CALL
THEM BY TELEPHONE.
DID YOU FOLLOW THAT PRACTICE IN THE PRIMARY
AND GENERAL ELECTIONS IN L982?
I DID NOT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION BECAUSE I
HAD OPPOSITION. WHEN I HAVE OPPOSITION AND I^IHEN I AM
oN THE BALLOT, I DO NOT GO TO THE POLLING PLACES. I DO
NOT TAKE THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AROUND. IN THE TWO PRI-
MARIES IN 1982, I DtD NOT HAVE OppOSITTON AND I DID GO
W.ITH THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AND DID GO INTO ALL THE
POLLING PLACES IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY.
A ARE YOU WEARING YOUR USUAL UNIFORM AS
SHERIFF OF THE COUNTY?
A YES, SIR. I DO NOT HAVE A UNIFORM.
CIVILIAN CLOTHES.
A TELL THE COURT
EXCUSE ME. DO YOU RECALL
WHEN YOU WEREAT.PRECINCT
I WEAR
WHAT YOU RECALL ABOUT--OH,
A TIME DURING THOSE PRIMARIES
12.4 IN ROOKY MOUNT?
a
APPEARANCE.
YES, S I R.
TELL THE COURT WHAT YOU RECALL ABOUT THAT
A WE ARRIVED AT THE PRECINCT AND I WENT INTO
THE POLLING PLACE WITH THE BOARD OF ELECTION MEMBERS.
I SPOKE TO THE REGISTRAR, SAID, rHELL0r" THEN CAME OUT-
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
!u-.,
SIDE. I WAS STANDING THERE TALKING WITH SOME BLACK
FRIENDS OF MINE I^/HO HAD COME OUT. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
THE WEATHER AND VARIOUS THINGS.
THE POLLING PLACE AT I2-4 IS A SCHOOL BUILDING
AND PEOPLE GOING TO VOTE HAVE TO WALK UP A I,/ALKWAY THAT
IS PROBABLY TWICE THE DISTANCE OF THIS COURTROOM BEFORE
THEY CAN GET INTO THE BUILDING WHERE THEY VOTE. WHILE I
WAS STANDING THERE TALKING WITH SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, I
SAW MR. FRED BELFIELD COME BY. I DID NOT SEE HIM UNTIL
HE HAD GOTTEN PAST ME, OTHERWI SE I WOULD HAVE SPOKEN TO
MR. BELFIELD.
ONE OF THE PURPOSES THAT I GO WITH THE BOARD
OF ELECTIONS IS NOT ONLY TO PROVIDE A PATROL CAR, BUT
TO GET TO MEET FOLKS AND SAY HELLO. I RUN FOR RE-
ELECTION EVERY FOUR YEARS AND I LIKE TO SHAKE HANDS. I
WOULD HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. BELFIEL; HAD I SEEN HIM, BUT I
DiD NOT UNTIL HE HAD GOTTEN BY ME.
A WERE THERE ANY OF THE BTACK PEOPLE THERE THAT
YOU SAID YOU WERE TALKING TO WHO YOU RECOGNIZED?
A I RECOGNIZED THEM AT THE TIME. I DO NOT RE-
CITLL THEIR NAMES. I THINK PROBABLY I NEED TO EXPLAIN
THAT I HAVE BEEN IN LAW ENFORCEMENT SINCE 1964, HAVE BEEN
AN ADULT PROBATION OFFICER FOR FOUR YEARS, SO I HAVE
WORKED THE AREA OF ROCKY MOUNT 12.4 FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS
I HAVE BEEN INTO A lor OF BLACK HOMES, SO r KNEW A LOT OF
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIEING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
56
PEOPLE BY THEIR FACE. I HAD DEALT WITH THEIR KIDS OR
WITH THEM, PROBATION OR I,JHATEVER, AND SO A LOT OF THESE
PEOPLE THAT I KNEW CAME UP AND SPOKE TO ME. I DON'T
RECALL I^,HAT THEIR NAMES WERE, BUT I KNEW THEM TO RECOGNIZE
THEM AND THEY DID ME, SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE.
DID YOU HAVE ANY VISIBLE SIDEARMS WITH YOU
THAT DAY?
A NO, SIR; I DO
IN THE CAR, BUT I DO NOT
DID YOU HAVE A
NOT CARRY A WEAPON.
CARRY ONE.
SHOTGUN WITH YOU?
I KEEP ONE
a
A
a
EITHER TO
ABOUT YOUR
TO VOTE IN
N0, sIR.
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY COMPLAINT THAT WAS MADE
YOUR OFFICE OR TO ANY OTHER PUBLIC OFFICIAL
INTERFERING WITH THE RIGHTS OF BLACK PEOPLE
THOSE ELECT IONS?
. A NO, SIR; I HAVE NEVER HAD ANYONE TO SAY Al'iY-
THING TO ME INDIVTOUAI-IV OR TO COMPLAIN TO MY OFFI CE.
THAT IS WHAT SURPRISED ME WHEN I WAS CALLED YESTERDAY
ABOUT MR. BELFIELDIS TESTIMONY WI.IEN I HAVE NEVER HAD A
COMPLA I NT.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR THAT SUCH ACTIVITY IF, IN
FACT, IT OCCURRED COULD BE IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW?
A YES, SIR; YOTJ MEAN INTIMIDATING A VOTER?
a YES.
A I SURE DO:
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95"i
A INCIDENTALLY, HOW LONG WERE YOU AT THAT
PREC ItICT?
A I WOULD SAY APPROXIMATELY T5 MINUTES, MAYBE
20. LIKE I SAY, I WALKED IN IiND L,UST SPOKE WITH THE
REGISTRARS -AND THEN CAME BACK OUTSIDE. IT WAS PROBABLY
15 OR 20 MINUTES.
MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE ME JUST ONE MOMENT.
(PAUSE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DCI YOU RECALL ANY SUCH IINCIDENT HAVING OCCURRE
IN, THE GENERAL ELECTION?
A NO; IN THE GENERAL ELECTION MY WIFE AND I
WENT TO L2-4. WE STOOD AT THE PLACE WHERE THE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS HAD SAID WAS WHERE THE PEOPLE CAMPAIGNING FOR
CANDIDATES HAD TO STAND. THAT WAS THE CLOSEST THEY COULD
GET .TO THE VOTING PLACE. WHEN prOpr-r CAME By, I ASKED
THEM TO VOTE FOR PHIL il..LIS FOR SHERIFF AND I DONIT RE-
CALL THAT I SAI^/ MR. BELFIELD. I MAY HAVE SEEN HIS wIFE.
SHE WAS, I THINK,. I KNOW, DURING THE PRIMARY WAS CAMPAIGN
ING FOR A CANDIDATE AND I MAY HAVE SEEN HER. I DONIT RE-
CALL SEEING MR. BELFIELD THAT DAY,AND hIE STAYED THERE
THEN MAYBE 15 OR 20 MINUTES.
A DID YOU HAVE AN OPPONENT IN THE GENERAL ELEC-
TION?
A YES, SIR.
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/-. .-'
J.'.'
(-'
MR. LEONAR.D: THATIS ALL.
C RO S S - E XAM I NAT I ON T:42P.M.
BY M5. WINNER:
A MR. ELLIS, WAS THIS THE FIRST OR SECOND PRI-
MARY IN 1982 THAT THIS INCIDENT HAPPENED?
A I REALLY CANIT RECALL. I WENT WITH THE BOARD
TO BOTH PRIMARIES, BUT I CANIT REALLY RECALL IF I SAW MR.
BELFIELD AT THE FIRST OR SECOND PRIMARY.
A WAS MR. MICHAUX A CANDIDATE IN THAT PRIMARY,
WHICHEVER ONE IT WAS?
A I THINK HE WAS. I FEEL PRETTY SURE HE WAS.
A WHY DID THE ELECTION BOARD MEMBERS GO TO THAT
PARTICULAR PRECINCT?
A THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY IS I THINK THEY PRO-
BABLY CARRY ABSENTEE BALLOTS THA; HAVE TO BE COUNTED OR
PAPERS, DOCUMENTS THAT THE REGISTRARS HAVE TO FILL OUT.
WE WENT TO EVERY POLLING PLACE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY, AND
DO EVERY YEAR.
A YOU WERE ORIGINALLY ELECTED IN L974?
A YES, MAIAM.
A YOUR OPPONENT IN THE PRIMARY THAT YEAR WAS
BLACK?
A THERE WERE NINE OF US RUNNING--EIGHT WHITE AND
ONE BLACK.
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3J9
A WFIAT WAS THE BLACK GENTLEMAN ' S NAME ?
A CHRIS KNIGHT.
A ANID DiD MR. KNIGHT COME IN FIRST IN THE
FIRST PRIMARY?
A YES, HE DID.
A AND DID YOU CALL FOR A RUN.OFF?
A YES, I DID.
A DO YOU RECALL WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE
YOU GOT IN THE FIRST PRIMARY?
A I DO NOT. I REALLY DON?T. IN NUMBERS, HE
ao] SoMEWHERE AROUND 2,000. I GOT SOMEWHERE AROUND
11500. I DONrT RECALL WHAT THE OTHER CANDIDATES GOT.
A THEN YOU DEFEATED HIM IN THE SECOND PRIMARY
THAT YEAR?
A MAIAM?
A YCU DEFEATED HIM IN TH; SECOND PRIMARY THAT
YEAR ?
a WHAT ts THE BLACK POPULATTON OF EDGECOMBE
C OUNTY ?
A i HAVE NOT SEEN THE CENSUS. I UNDERSTAND IT
IS APPROXIMATELY 51 PERCENT.
A HOW MANY DEPUTIES DO YOU EMPLOY?
A 21.
a How MANY O_F THOSE ARE BLACK?
H P. O. Bor 2ttc,
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.7 tJ L,
A FOUR OF THEM.
MS. WINNER: I DON I T HAVE ANY OTHER
QUESTIONS.
MR. LEONARD: NO REDIRECT. MAY THE WIT-
NESS BE EXCUSED--OH, IIM SORRY. THE COURT HAS SOME QUES.
TIONS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: NO QUESTIONS.
MR. LEONARD: MAY THE WITNESS BE EXCUSED
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MAY THE WITNESS BE EXCUSED
MS. WINI'IER: AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED,
YES.
(WI TNESS EXCUSED. )
MR. LEONARD: MR. LANIER.
(wnenrurox,
MARK LAN I ER
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWONN, AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M,J N A T I O N 1:45 p.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS, PLEASE?
A MARK LANIER,
A AND WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND, MR.
LANIER?
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,'i. | !Jui
A I HAVE A BACHELORIS DEGREE FROM APPALACHIAN
STATE UNIVERSITY. I COMPLETED THREE YEARS OF MY UNDER-
GRADUATE AT D. PARKS, TRANSFERRING TO APPALACHIAN. I
ALSO HAVE A MASTERIS DEGREE IN POLITICAL SCIENCE FROM
APPALACHIAN STATE AND I HAVE COMPLETED ONE YEAR TOWARD
MY DOCTORATE AT THE UNIVERSiTY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPE
HI LL.
a Do you HAVE A COpy OF DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 48
IN FRONT OF YOU?
A iF IT IS AN ARTICLE WHICH I WROTE; YES.
A I T I S AN ART I CLE ENT I TLED, I'THE RUN-OFF PR IMAR
PATH TO VI CTORY. 'I
A YES; THAT ARTICLE APPEARED IN THE NORTH CARO-
LINA INSIGI-IT WHICH IS A PUBLICATION OF THE.NORTH CAROLII.IA
CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY RESEARCH.
. a AND THE AUTHOR OF THAT ARTTCLE IS SHOWN ON
PAGE 18 AS MARK LANIER AND THAT IS YOU?
A YES.
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 48 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
A DESCR I BE WHAT THE SUB.JECT MATTER OF THE ART I CL
IS?
A IT IS AN EXAMINATION OF THE RUN-OFF PRIMARY
IN NORTH CAROLINA IN LIGHT OF RECENT PROPOSALS IN THE
198] GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.)r'r)
JUL
a
SUBJECT?
AND HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT SELECTING THAT
A I HAVE AN INTEREST IN AMERICAN POLITICS,AND
ONE OF MY PROFESSORS INDICATED INTEREST IN AN ARTICLE
ON THE FIRST PROPOSAL WHICH SURFACED IN THE GENERAL AS-
SEMBLY. I SUBSEQUENTLY FOLLOWED UP O].i THAT AND LOOKED
AT ALL THE PROPOSALS THAT CAME TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
AS WELL AS A FEW RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WERE NOT TURNED
INTO BILLS.
HOW DID YOU OBTAIN THE DATA THAT YOU USED FOR
THI S STUDY?
A I VISITED THE SECRETARY OF STATEIS OFFICE
HERE IN RALEIGH AND COLLECTED INFORMATION FROM THE AB-
STRACT OF VOTES AND THE CERTIFICATION SHEETS. I ALSO
USED THE NORTH CAROLINA MANUAL WHICH IS PLIBLISHED BY THE
SECRETARY OF STATE' S OFFICE AND, IN ONE INSTAI.ICE, I
CONTACTED A COUNTY SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS FOR ADDITIONAL
MATER I AL.
a IS IT. CORRECT TO SAy THAT yOU WENT TO THE
ORIGINAL SOURCE FOR THE DATA?
A THE RECORDS IN THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE
ARE THE ORIGINAL SOURCE; YES.
A WHAT DID YOU EXAMINE ABOUT THOSE ELECTIONS?
A I E):AMINED VARIOUS PROPOSALS IN THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY AND LOOKED AT ALL PRIMARY ELECTIONS IN NORTH,O
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Czi -
.tJW \)
CAROLINA TO SEE WHAT EFFECT THOSE PROPOSALS WOULD
HAVE ON THE PRIMARIES. THE RACES WHICH I LOOKED AT WERE
ALL STATEWIDE AND CONGRESSIONAL RACES FROM 1950 TO 1982,
AND ALL GENERAL ASSEI'IBLY RACES FROM 1964 THROUGH 1982.
IN ADDITION, I THREW IN TWO HISTORICAL--WELL, TWO CASES
OF HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE: THE 19]6 SECRETARY OF STATEI
RACE INVOLVING THAD EURE AND THE ]948 GUBERNATORIAL RACE
INVOLVING KERR SCOTT.
A WITH RESPECT TO THE STUDY THAT YOU CONDUCTED,
WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT WHETHER WITH RESPECT AND NOW
ONLY TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RACES, WERE THERE ANY OF THE
PROPOSALS THAT WERE BEFORE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN 1982
FROM YOUR STUDY WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A BLACK WINNING
A GENERAL ASSEMBLY RACE BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN THE
PR I MARY SYSI'EM?
NOT IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLYl NO.
A THERE WERE SOME RACES THAT YOU FOUND I4ERE, HAD
THE BLACK NOT HAD TO GO INTO A RUN.OFF OR IF.ONE OE THESE
PROPOSALS WOULD HAVE BEEN PASSED, A BLACK MIGHT HAVE WON?
A OUTSIDE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY; YES.
A YES.; OTHER THAN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
A YES; THERE WERE TWO CASES; ONE INVOLVING A
STATEWIDE RACE AND ONE INVOLVING A CONGRESSIONAL RACE.
.: MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, wE
OFFER DEFENDANTIS EXHIBIT 4B INTO EVIDENCE.
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. ,. -. ,
;:l o{*.
MS. I{ I NNER : NO OBJECTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
OB.JECTION.
(DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 4B WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
A WHAT WAS THE TOTAL NUMBER OF POLITICAL CONTEST
THAT YOU LOOKED AT?
A INCLUDING THE TWO RACES OF HISTORICAL SIGNIFI-
CANCE AS I^JELL AS THOSE WI THIN THE INCLUS IVE DATES, I
LOOKED AT A TOTAL OF 77 RUN.OFFS.
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS A.LL I HAVE.
CROSS EXAMINATION 1:5OP.M.
BY MS. WINNER:
. A MR. LANIER, IN ADDITION TO THE PROPOSALS THAT
I^/ERE BEFORE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, DID YOU ALSO LOOK AT
THE EFFECT OF ELIMINATING TTIE MAJORITY VOTE REQUIREMENT?
A YES; I DID.
A AND DiD YOU FIND THAT THE MA.JORITY VOTE RE-
QUIREMENT HAD BEEN ELIMINATED THAT 1B GENERAL ASSEMBLY
ELECTIONS WCULD COME OUT DIFFERENT?
A YES.
a AND WERE SOME PORTION OF THOSE 18 FROM MULTr-
MEMBEF: DISTRICTS?
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Uwj
A YES; THEY WE:RE.
A YOU MENTIONED TWO EXAMPLES OF BLACK CANDIDATES
WHO LOST BECAIJSE OF THE MAJORITY VOTE REQUIREMENT. WOULD
ONE OF THOSE HAVE BEEN MICKEY MICHAUX?
A YES; IN THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN
1982.
A AND WAS THE OTHER ONE HOWARD LEE WHO WAS RUNNI
FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IN I976?
A YES.
A WERE THOSE DEFEATS WELL.PUBLICIZED IN NORTH
CAROL I NA,?
A FOR THOSE WITH AN INTEREST IN THE AREA, YES;
THERE WAS QUITE A BIT OF MATERIAL AVAILABLE.
a AS A pot-ITICAL SCIENTIST, IS IT YOUR OpINION
THAT THOSE DEFEATS WOULD HAVE A DISCOURAGING EFFECT ON
OTHER BLACK CANDIDATES?
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, WE
DID NOT OFFER THE WITNESS AS AI.i EXPERT IN POLITICAL
SCIENCE. INDEED, WE SIMPLY OFFERED HIM.-HE DID A VERY
LIMITED STUDY ON THIS ISSUE ONLY AND HIS REPORT IS CON.
TAINED IN THAT ARTICLE. IT DOES NOT GO BEYOND THE SCOPE
OF THAT STUDY.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.
BY MS. WINNER:
A DO YOU NEED ME TO REPEAT THE QUESTION?,.
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i-, \-i (J
YES, PLEASE.
IN YOUR OPINION, WOULD THOSE DEFEATS OF
HOWARD LEE AND--OR DO THOSE DEFEATS OF HOWARD LEE AND
MICKEY MICHAUX ITAVE A DISCOURAGING EFFECT ON OTHER BLACK
CANDIDATES?
I QUOTED iN MY AP.T I CLE FROM REPRESENTAT I VE
SPAULING OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS SAYING THAT THERE IS
A DISINCENTIVE TO BLACKS FROM THE FIFTY PERCENT PRIMARY.
TO FORM t4y OPINION, I WOULD PROBABLY NEED TO HAVE SOME
TYPE OF EMPIRICAL VALIDATION. AND I DONIT KNOW HOW THAT
COU ITD BE D ER I VED .
DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER A MAJORIT
VOTE REQUIREMENT WOULD HAVE A DISCOURAGING EFFECT--OR
WHETHER BLACK LOSSES AS A RESULT OF A MA.JORITY VOTE RE-
QUIREMENT WOULD HAVE A DISCOURAGING. EFFECT ON BLACK
VOTERS OR BLACK CITIZENS?
I HAVE NOT GIVEN THAT EXTENDED THOUGHT. THE
DISINCENTIVE WHICH REPRESEMTATIVE SPAULDiNG REFERRED TO
WOULD APPLY ONLY.TO CANDIDATES RATHER THAN TO THE POPU-
LACE. I DONIT HAVE A FIRM OPINION ON THAT, NO, WITHOUT
HAVING DONE RESEARCII IN THAT AREA.
A DID YOU DO A SYSTEMATIC STUDY OF THE EFFECTS
OF THE MAJORITY VOTE REQUIREMENT ON COUNTY COMMISSION AND
CITY COUNCIL ELECTIONS?
NO, I DID NO SYSTEMATIC RESEARCH ON THAT TOPI
A
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l;l t t-'i
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a Do You KNot,i soME EXAMPLES OF BLACK CANDI-
DATES WHO HAVE RUN FOR CITY COUNCILS OR COUNTY COMMISSION
WHO HAVE LOST BECAUSE OF A MAJORITY VOTE RE(iUIREMENT?
A YES; I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THAT.
a N youR opINIoN, ARE THOSE POSITIONS GOOD
TRAINiNG GROUND FOR SUESEQUENT LEGISLATIVE SERVICE?
A MANY LEGISLATORS DO HAVE RECORDS OF PRIOR
PUBLIC SERVICE.
A AND THEY CAN BE IMPORTANT WAYS TO BUILD CREDI-
BILITY WITH THE ELECTORATE?
I WOULD ASSUME SO.
A HAVE YOU ALSO DONE A STUDY ABOUT THE LINGERING
EFFECT OF PAST DISCRIMINATIONS IN I{ORTH CAROLINA?
A YES, I HAVE.
a Il.l YOUR OPINIOT'1, ARE THERE STILL LINGERING
EFFECTS-.-
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MS. wINNER, I Do THINK
YOU ARE RANG I I.IG CONS I DERABLY BEYOND THE SCOPE OF D I RECT
ON THIS. . I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO BOLSTER WIT
THIS WITNESS EVIDENCE WHICH IS ALREADY IN THE RECORD, BUT
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THAT PARTICULAR DOOR WAS OPENED ON
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
MS. WINNER: I AM CLEARLY GOING BEYOND
THE SCOPE OF DIRECT. IF yOU TELL ME NOT TO, I WoNrT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IN THE INTEREST OF
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JurO
TIME AND ON THE BASIS THAT IT IS THE COURTIS CLEAR
RECOLLECTION THAT YOU HAVE WHAT YOU OBVIOUSLY THOUGHT
AND WHAT SEEMED TO ME EAIRLY COGENT EVIDENCE ON THE
POINT, I THINK WE WILL CUT THAT OFF RIGHT NOW.
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
COURT PLEASE.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
I HAVE JUST A FEW,IF THE
REDIRECT EXAMINATION Ti55 P.I,1.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DID ANYONE OFFER A PROPOSAL IN THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY DURING THE PERIOD OF YOUR ST.UDY TO TOTALLY
ELIMINATE THE RUN.OFF PRIMARY?
A NO; THE PLUR,qLITY OPTION WAS NOT INCLUDED IN
ANY BILL.
a AND REPRESENTATIVE SpAUr-OING WAS THE AUTHOR
OF THE MOST PROMINENT OF THE PROPOSALS, WAS HE NOT?
A THE MOST LENIENI OF THE PROPOSALS?
A THE ONE THAT GOT THE MOST ATTENTION.
A OKAY. YES.
A AIiD REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING I S A BLACK?
A YES; HE IS.
a HE DID NoT OFFER A TOTAL ELIMINATIoN OF THE
R UN-OFF ?
A WHAT HE S_UGGESTED WAS A REDUCTION OF THEa
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e, r-'i
PERCENTAGE TO 4O PERCENT.
NOW, OF THE 1B GENERAL ASSEMBLY SEATS WHERE
TilE RESULTS WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT HAD ONE OF THESE
PROPOSALS THAT WAS BEFORE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY PI,SSED,
DID ANY OF THOSE INVOLVE BLACKS?
A NO, THEY DID NOT.
A WOULD THE RACE BETWEEN HOWARD LEE AND JIMMY
GREEN HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT OUTCOME IF ANY ONE OF THOSE
PROPOSALS THAT WERE BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE WOULD HAVE
PASSED?
NO;
LEE CAPTURING
TURING 27.3.
THAT WAS A VERY CLOSE FIRST PRIMARY WITH
27.7 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND GREEN CAP_
A SO IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN A TOTAL ELIMINATION OF
THE RUN-OFF PRIMARY TO HAVE HAD ANY EFFECT ON THAT RACE?
, A YES; THE PLURALITY SYSTTPT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE
ONLY ALTERI.IATIVE fO AnfeCT THAT RACE.
A WERE THERE ANY PROPOSALS INTRODUCED INTO THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY BY MR. SPAULDING OR ANY OTHER MEMBER IN
1982 TO ELIMINATE THE RUN-OFF PRIMARIES IN LOCAL ELECTIONS
A NO; ALL OF THE BILLS AND SUGGESTIONS APPLIED
ONLY TO STATEWIDE CONGRESSIONAL AND GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND
JUDICIAL RACES.
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
THAT IS ALL I HAVE.
I HAVE JUST ONE OTHER.
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t.,
RECROSS-EXAM I NAT I ON I..57P.M;
BY MS. WINNER:
A DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY STATES CURRENTLY HAVE A
MAJORITY VOTE REQUIREMENT?
A YES; THERE ARE NINE STATES NOW.
a AN|D WHERE ARE THEY--DO yOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?
A I BELIEVE I LIST THEM IN ONE OF MY FOOTNOTES.
THEY ARE ALL SOUTHERN STATES. THEY ARE MISSISSIPPI,
NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA, GEORGIA, TEXAS, FLORIDA,
ALABAMA, ARKANSAS AND OKLAHOMA.
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
MAY THE WITNESS BE EXCUSED?
I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTION
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THE WITNESS MAY BE EXCUSED
(wl rurss EXCUSED. )
MR. LEONARD: I HOPE THE COURT IvoN'T FIN
ME IN COIITEMPT, BUT I DONIT. THINK WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT
UNTIL ]:OO OICLOCK.
JUDGE DUPREE, I DO NOT INTEND TO OFFER ALL THI
INTO EVIDENCE.
MS. WINNER: YOUR HCNOR, I DONrT KNOW
WHETHER OR NOT I OBJECT, BUT I DO KNOW,THAT THIS PERSON
WHO IS 'NOW ON THE I,JITNESS STAND I HAD NEVER HEARD OF
UNT I L 30 SECONDS AGO.
-
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
9',
a
li
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS CORRECT. IF
THE COURT WILL ALLOW ME TO IDENTIFY HER, I THINK I CAN
QUICKLY SHOW TO THE COURT AND COUNSEL WHY I CALLED HER.
I DO NOT INTEND TO INTRODUCE ALL THOSE DOCUMENTS INTO
EV I DENCE .
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONIT YOU TELL US WHAT
YOU INTEND TO DO WITH THIS WITNESS AND WHO:,SHE IS.
MR. LEONARD: THIS WITNESS IS.JEAN
HARRELL WHO WAS THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS FROM EDGECOMB
COUNTY. I AM GOING TO PUT HER ON THE STAND ONLY FOR THE
PURPOSE OF IDENTIFYING THE STACK OF DOCUMENTS WHICH ARE
THE RECORDS RELATING TO THE 1982 PRIMARY AND GENERAL
ELECT IONS. SHE HAS ONLY BEEN THERE S I NCE .JANUARY, AND
I INTEND TO CALL PATSY WHALEY WHO WAS THE SUF'ERINTENDENT
OF ELECTIONS IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY AT THE TIME THAT THE
BELFIELD ALLEGATIONS IOOK PLACE. THERE MAY BE SOMETHING
IN THAT STACK OF DOCUMENTS THAT MIGHT REFRESH HER RECOL-
LECTION. I DONrT KNOW, BUT= I DONTT INTEND TO EVEN MARK
THEM UNLESS THER,E IS SOMETHING HELPFUL.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
TAKE IT FROM THERE.
(wrrRruRoN,
WELL, PROCEED AND WE ' LL
.JEAN MOORE HARRELL
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SI'/ORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS : )
A P. O. Eor 2ttct
]J R.bloh, Nonh C.roril 276rt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'ar,
r'!
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 1:58 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME, PLEASE, AND
YOT]R ADDRESS?
A JEAN MOORE HARRELLi
A AND YOU ARE THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS IN
EDGECOMtsE COUNTY?
A IAM.
A AND YOU HAVE BEEN SINCE APPROXIMATELY JANUARY?
A JANUARY OF: 19 8 f .
A OF THIS YEAR. AND AS PART OF YOUR DUTIES AS
SUPERVISOR YOU ARE THE CUSTODIAN OF THE RECORDS RELATING
TO ELECTIONS IN THE COUNTY?
.AYES,IAM.
A WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT, PLEASE, WHAT THOSE
TWO STACKS OF DOCUMENTS ARE THAT ARE ON THE WITNESS STAND
A THESE, ARE BASICALLY COPIES OF MINUTES OF BOARD
OF ELECTION MEETINGS, REGISTRATION AND STATISTICS PER-
TAINING TO REGISTRATION, CORRESPONDENCE AND OTHER DOCU-
MENTS PERTAINING TO ELECTIONS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN
EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THAT IS GENERALLY WHAT THIS IS.
A AI.,ID DO THEY CONTAIN THE DATA YOU .JUST TESTI FI E
TO FOR 1982?
F P. O.8or 2tlB
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCR!BING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
d'! ;' r\
L}
A YES, THEY DO.
A AI.ID YOU ARE HERE BY SUBP0ENA; CoRRECT?
A YES,
:
or.
A AND WE ASKED YOU TO BRING THOSE RECORDS WITH
YOU?
A YES, SIR.
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL I HAVE.
CROSS-EXAMINATION 2iOOP.M.
BY MS. WINNER:
A MY NAME IS LESLIE WINNER. DO YOU RECALL
TALKING TO A SARAH CROWDER OF MY OFFICE ON THE TELEPHONE
IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS?
A YES, I DO.
A DO YOU RECALL REFUSING TO SEND HER VOTER AB-
SI'RA.CTS THAT SHE REQUESTED?
A No, I DrD No; REFUSE. wE HAD To---
A (TruTERPOSING) DLD YOU TELL HER THAT SHE HAD
TO GET A SUBPOENA TO GET THE ABSTRACTS?
A NO, I DO NOT.
MS. WINNER:
OTHER QUESTIONS.
OKAY. I DONIT HAVE ANY
MR. LEONARD:
PATSY WHALEY.
THANK YOU. THE STATE CALL
(Wi TNESS EXCUSED. )
F P. O. Bor 2tla
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ftl I c
J;-j
WAS CALLED
FOLLOWS: )
SURPRISE?
(wnrREUPoN /
PAI SY I^IHALEY
AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : MS. WINNER, YOU SUGGESTED
MOMENT. DOES THE STATEMENT ON THE WITNESS LIST, IN
STATING THE EXPECTED TESTIMONY FFIOM MR. BELFIELD, GIVE
A FAIR INDICATION THAT HE WAS GOING TO TESTIFY TO THIS
SPECIFIC EPISODE WHICH I ASSUME INVOLVED WHAT--THE 72 OR
14 TIMES WHEN PEOPLE WERE DENIED TO VOTE?
I DOUBT IT.
WELL, THIS IT SEEMS TO ME
PRISENTS A REAL PROBLEM IN REBUTTAL. I DONIT KNOW VERY
WELL WHAT MORE THE STATE COULD DO IN ATTEMPTING TO REBUT
WHAT THEY APPA.RENTLY CONSIDER SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES RE-
BUTTAL EXCEPT TO.GET ON THE HORSE AND FIND A WITNESS OVER
NIGHT. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT WE VJILL DO FOR YOU:IF YOU
WILL LET THE EXAMINATION PROCEED AND THEN IF YOU CLAIM
SO MUCH SURPRISE AS TO BE UNABLE TO CROSS-EXAMINE, WE WIL
coNSIDER YOUR REQUEST TO BE ALLOWED TO HOLD UP YOUR CROSS
EXAMINAT ION. I WOULD LI KE YOU TO TELL ME AS I KNOI,I YOU
WILL FRANKLY At.iD CAND_IDLY WHETHER YOU ARE UNABLE TO
MS. WINNER:
.JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
MS. WINNER:
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
I AM TOTALLY SURPRISED.
LETIS LOOK AT THIS A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
!':
tl
,.)'/
CONDUCT A FAIR CROSS.EXAMINATION.
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
I THINK COUNSEL WILL ADMIT
THAT I ADVISED HER THIS I"IORNING AND LAST NIGHT ABOUT
SHERIFF ELLIS. I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THESE TWO WITNESSES
UNTIL AFTER LUNCH.
.JUDGE PHlLLIPS: I THINK WE HAVE SETTLED
IT, SO GO AHEAD.
DIRECT EXAMINATION 2:04 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MS. WHALEY, YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO COME BACK
I F THAT WAS NECESSARY, WOULD YOU NOT?
A YES, SIR.
A YOUR NAME IS PATSY WHALEY?
A YES, SIR; IT IS.
q AND YOU WERE THE SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS IN
EDGECOMBE COUNTY?
A YES, SIR.
A FOR WHAT PERIOD OF TIME?
A AUGUST OF '73 THROUGH AUGUST OF '82, APPROXI-
MATELY NINE YEARS.
A TELL THE COURT .JUST GENERALLY FROM YOUR EXPERI
ENCE WHAT EFFORTS HAVE BEEN MADE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY TO
INCREASE VOTER REGISTRATION?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCR!BING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
r)t^: onw.
A IT HAS BEEN THE POLICY OF THE ENTIRE BOARD--
WE HAVE LIKE 6O SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS AND
ELECTION OFFICIALS IN THE COUNTY. IF A PERSON WENT TO
THEIR HOME TO REGISTER, THEY DID IT THERE OR IF THEY
I.JERE CONTACTED IN ADVANCE THEY WOULD GO TO A CHURCH OR
A SCHOOL. WE WERE IN THE SCHOOLS EVERY YEAR AND REGIS_
TERED, BUT WE REALLY DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF MALL REGISTRA-
TIONS. AFTER WE HAD THE REQUEST DURING JANUARY OF ,82,
WE STARTED GOING IN ALL THE MALLS IN BOTH EDGECOMBE AND
NASH COUNTIES. THIS WAS A JOINT EFFORT BETI^JEEN NASH AND
EDGECOMBE.
WE WENT IN ALL THE MALLS. WE WENT IN ALL THE
REST HOMES, ALL THE RETIREMENT CENTERS. THERE WERE
SEVERAL ALL-BLACK COMMUNITY BUILDINGS IN THE ROCKY MOUNT
AREA THAT WE WENT TO. THIS W/.S L:IKE AN EIGHT-HOUR DAY.
WE HAD BEEN REQUESTED TO GO IN NON AN ENTIRE WEEK WHICH
wE DID, FROM B:00 OTCLOCK UNTIL 5:00. WE SET UP SPECIAL
REGISTRATION HOURS IN OUR ROCKY MOUNT OFFICE AND IN THE
EDGECOMBE ADMINI,STRATIVE BUI LDING, WE SET UP THERE.
THESE WERE E I GHT-HOUR DAYS. I^,E BROUGHT I N
EXTRA PEOPLE TO GET THEM REGISTERED. WE I,IENT IN THE
cHURCHES Ol.l SUNDAY AFTERNOONS. BAS I CALLY, THAT I S I T.
q
A
a
BY MALLS, YOU MEAN SHOPPING MALLS?
ENCLOSED MALLS; RIGHT.
DURING TIE TIME THAT YOU WERE SUPERVISOR OF
F P. O. Bor I'tlcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876_4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
;t ),
ELECTIONS, DID YOU HAVE CUSTODY OF THE ELECTION RECORDS
FOR THE COUNTY?
A YES, SIR; I DID.
a DO you RECOGNTZE ANy OF THOSE RECORDS THAT ARE
IN FRONT OF YOU?
A YES, SIR; I SURE DO.
A DC) YOU RECOGNIZE THOSE AS HAVING COME FROM THE
FILES WHICH WERE UNDER YOUR.JURISDICTION WHEN YOU WERE
SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS?
A YES, SIR.
HAVE YOU RECEIVED COMPLI,INTS FROM BLACK PEOPLE
IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY ABOUT BEING REGISTERED VOTERS BUT
NOT BEING ABLE TO VOTE IN ELECTIONS?
A I CANNOT FIND A SPECIFIC INSTANCE OR SPECIFIC
VOTER TO COME TO OUR ELECTION BOARD OR MY OFFICE AND TO
TELL ME THAT; NO, SIR. I{E HAVE HAD LETTERS REQUESTING
DRIVES AND LETTERS MAKI*' OCCUSATIONS, BUT NOTHING WAS
DOCUMENTED. NO ONE COULD GIVE US A NAME THAT WE COULD
CONTACT THAT POTENTIAL VOTER TO TALK WITH THEM.
a EXCUSE ME. ItM SORRY. GO AHEAD.
A THATIS IT.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH PRECINCT I2-4 IN ROCKY
MOUNT ?
A YES, SIR; I AM.
a IN THE 1982 PRIMARY GENERAL ELECTIONS, HOI^I
F P. O, 8or i,al(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
l'-\(,
MANY ELECTION OFFICIALS I^IERE IN THAT PRECINCT?
I CAN SPEI.K FOR THE FIRST AND SECOND PRIMARY.
I I4AS NOT THERE IN THE NOVEMBER GENERAL.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE, BY GENERAL STATUTE 163,
THREE ELECTION OFFICIALS IN ADDITION TO YOUR ASSISTANTS.
I AM SURE WE DID FOR THE FIRST AND SECOND PRIMARY, ONE
REGISTRAR AND TWO JUDGES, FOLLOWING AN ADDITIONAL FIVE
ASSISTANTS DUE TO THE NUMBER REGISI'ERED IN THAT PARTICULA
PREC I NCT.
a
WHO WERE IN
A
a
A
a
AS MANY AS
VOTE IN THE
t9 82?
WELL,,SIR, LIKE I SAID, NO NAMES WERE BROUGHT
TO THE BOARD. WE KEEP A PROBLEM SHEET ON ELECTION DAY
FROM THE TIME WE GET THERE AT 5:OO IN THE MORNING UNTIL
WE GO HOME AT ]:OO OR 4:OO THE NEXT DAY. ANY PRECINCT
OFFICIAL TO CALL IN--ANYONE WITH A COMPLAINT FOR THAT
MATTER.-h'E TAKE THE TIME. THEY CALL IN WHO IT WAS AND
WHAT IT WAS ABOUT AND WHAT WE DID TO RESOLVE IT.
DO YOU KNOW'THE RACE OF THE ELECTION OFFICIALS
THAT PRECINCT IN THE TWO PRIMARIES IN I9B2?
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT BLACK.
DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR A FACT?
YES, S I R.
DO YOU RECALL RECEIVING ANY COMPLAINT ABOUT
20 OR MORE PEOPLE BEIN; REFUSED THE RIGHT TO
PRECINCT I2-4 IN EITHER OF THE PRIMARIES IN
F P, O, Eor i,ttGl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
,':r
LI
/]i1JI
GOING BACK AND CHECKING THOSE RECORDS, THERE
WERE soME PEOPLE THAT sHot^/ED up roo LATE oN ELECTION DAy.
THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.
SOME OF THEM HAD REGISTERED IN ANOTHER COUNTY, FOR EXAMPL
IN NASH WHICH BORDERS ON EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THEY WERE AL-
READY REGISTERED IN ANOTHER COUNTY AND THEY HITD ALREADY
BEEN OVER THERE AND VOTED. THEY CAME TO EDGECOMBE COUNTY
THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COUID NOT VOTE IN BOTH COUNTIES
WHEN WE HAD TH I S PROBLEM AT REG I SI'RAT I ON, OUR
BOARD WAS CONTACTED THAT THERE I^JERE A LOT OF NAMES ON
OUR EDGECOMBE COUNTY L I ST-- I BEL I EVE TH I S I^/AS FROM A
CANDI DATE. HE WAS CHECKING THE NAMES AND THERE I^/ERE SOME
ON BOTH BOOKS, SO WE WENT TO THE EXTRA EFFORT OF VERIFYIN
RECORDS. THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE ON BOTH BOOKS--NASH AND
EDGECOMBE--WHICH WE CONTACTED INDIVIDUALLY BY LETTER AND
HAD THEM TO EiTHER COME IN OR BY LETTER TO CLEAR THESE
RECORDS UP. THERE WER.E SOME 60, FROM WHAT I COULD REMEM-
BER, THAT WERE ON BOTH BOOKS. THEY WERE WRITTEN AND THEY
WERE TOLD TrIAT TIJEY HAD TO DECIDE, yOtJ KNOW, WHICH COUNTY
THEY IN FACT DID LIVE IN. WE DID ALL THIS PRIOR TO ELEC-
TION DAY.
BUT SOME WEI.IT TO BOTH COUNTIES ANYWAY AND NO,
S I R, THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE I F THEY WERE ON BOTH
BOOKS OR I F THEY HAD MOVED OUT OF THE COUNTY OR CHANGED
THEIR ADDRESS OUTSIDE THEIR PRECINCT PRIOR TO THE CLOSING
F P. O. Bor 2'l{lt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OF THE BOOKS.
a WHEN yOU SAy COMP I L I NG--I^/HAT K I ND OF REPORT
WAS IT?
A WE HAVE A COMPUTER PRINT-OUT IN EDGECOMBE
COUNTY. EVERYTHING I S ON COMPUTER I,/ITH THE HOSPITAL AND
WE KEYPUNCH EVERYTHING IN. NASH DOES THE SAME THING.
YES, MArAI'1. yOu SAy you FILED ON ELECTION
DAY SOME KIND OF REPORT OF A COMPLAINT?
YES, SIR; ITIS A PROBLEM SHEET AND THEN I CAN
REFER BACK TO THIS IF WE HAVE SOMETHING TO COME UP LATER
AND THEN SHARE THE PROBLEMS WITH THE BOARD THAT EVENING.
CAN YOU FIND THE PROBLEM SHEET FOR THOSE TWO
PRIMARY EL.ECTIONS AMONGST THE DOCUMENTS THAT ARE ON THE
WITNESS STAND?
A I AM SURE I CAN WITH A LITTLE TiME. ITIS HERE
l/{E HAD IT EARLIER WHEN I WAS PUL;ING OUT ALL THE THINGS.
THERE ARE ABOUT FOUR SHEETS WITH PROBABLY 30 PROBLEMS ON
EACH ONE, BUT IT WAS ALL DEALING I,JITH THEIR NOT BEING
QUALIFIED. .
A MS. WHALEY, I DONIT REALLY WANT YOU TO DO THAT
BUT I HAVE A FEELING THAT WHEN I FINISHED EXAMINING YOU
THAT COUNSEL I'S, GOING TO ASK YOU TO FIND IT, SO MAYBE YOU
OUGHT TO LOOK FOR IT.
A I DONIT KNOW, THE LIST MAY BE.-I LEFT THE
ELECTIONS LAST AUGUST. WE COMPILED A LIST OF THOSE 6O
F P. O. &r i,tlGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3rl
NAMES AT THE TIME WE VERIFIED THE NASH AND EDGECOMBE
COUNTY BOOKS. WITH EACH ONE WRITTEN THERE IS ALSO A
COPY OI: THAT LETTER IN THE FILES IN ADDITION TO THAT
Li ST.
a
VOTERS?
A COPY Of= THE LETTER THAT WAS SENT TO THE
A YES, SIR.
A I NFORMI NG THEM THAT YOU CAI'II T BE REG I STERED
IN TWO COUNTIES?
A SOME OF THE. LETTERS EVEN CAME BACK, IIADDRESSEE
UNKNOWN.'I SOME OF THE ADDRESSES DID NOT EVEN EXIST.
THERE WERE HOMES.-HOME NUMBERS GIVEN THAT NO ONE EVEN
KNEW THERE. THERE WAS A VACANT LOT. WE HAD EIGHT PEOPLE
LIVING IN ONE ONE-BEDROOM HOUSE. IT HAS JUST TAKEN A LOT
OF TIME TO GO THROUGH AND WRITE THESE LETTERS AND COR-
RESPOND BACK.
..
A WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THOSE DOCUMENTS FOR A
MOMENT, DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION TODAY OF A SPECIFIC
INCIDENT INVOLVING THAT PRECINCT, 12-4?
ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY?
DUR I NG THE Tl4lO PR I MAR I ES I N 1982?
I CANNOT CALL THE NAME. ITTS IN THE MINUTES,
IIM SURE. I REMEMBER ONE INCIDEN]'. A MAN AND WIFE CAME
IN--I^JELL, HE WAS ON THE BOOKS BUT SHE WAS NOT.BUT HE HhD
MADE THE DECISION THAT HE WAS IN ANOTHER COUNTY,BUT THEY
A P. O. Bor 2aldt
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'r ' (-1
WERE MARRI ED. HE
WE HAD SENT HIM A
IN EDGECOMBE. I
A IS THAT
IN EITHER OF THOSE
IN ROCKY MOUNT?
HAD ALREADY VOTED
LETTER, SO HE WAS
CANNOT RECALL THE
THE ONLY iNSTANCE
TWO PRIMARIES IN
IN THE OTHER COUNTY.
NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE
NAME RIGHT NOW.
THAT YOU REMEMBER
1982 IN PRECINCT 12_4
A TO GIVE YOU A NAME; YES, SIR. THAT IS THE
oNLY ONE. f,JE HAD A LOT OF pEOpLE TO CO|4E, BASED ON THAT
PROBLEM SHEET ALSO. YOU CAN GET THE NAMES FROM THAT, BUT
I CANNOT RECALL THE NAME RIGHT NOW.
A IS IT CORRECT THAT THE PEOPLE WHO CALLED IN A
PROBLEM IN THAT PRECINCT RELATED TO THIS DUAL REGISTRATI
A THE MA.JORITY OF THEM.
A CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT THEY
HAD IN THAT PRECINCT IN THOSE TWO PRIMARIES IN I 82?
A WE HAD ONE OTHER ONT bI.I THE PRIMARY THAT
STANDS OUT IN MY MIND. THEY LET THE WIFE VOTE AND THE
MAN HAD NOT REGISTERED, ANQ HE ACTUALLY TOOK THE BALLOTS
FROM THE REGISTBAR. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO VOTE. HE
HAD COME TO THE TELEPHONE TO CALL ME. THAT WAS THE REGIS
TRAR, MR. BOAR, AND I WAS LOOKING IT UP IN THE RECORDS.
HE SAI D, I'WELL, THAT I S OKAY. HE HAS GRABBED THE BALLOTS
NOW.'' SO HE WENT ON AhID VOTED AND PUT THEM ON THROUGH
THE MACHINE,WHICH THERE IS NOTHING HE COULD DO ABOUT IT.
THAT HAPPENED ON
'N!
SAME DAY. THAT MAN WAS NOT REGISTER
F P. O. Bor i'tl*l
lJ e.blch, Noiln C..oIm 270rr
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THAT PRECINCT SEEMS TO HAVE MORE PROBLEMS
THAN ANY OF THE OTHERS. THAT WAS WHY WE PUT AN ELECTION
OFFICIAL WHO WAS ON THE BOARD AT THE SECOND PRIMARY,
TRYING TO AVOID SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENING AGAIN, SO
WE HAD ONE OF OUR BOARD MEMBERS TO SIT IN ALL DAY LONG
AT THE SECOND PRIMARY IN I2-4 PRECINCT.
a
SAME KIND
HAD IN THE
A
WERE DOING
THERE WAS
AL L.
a
THAT THE
VOTERS AT
FROM YOUR RECOLLECTION, DID YOU EXPERIENCE THE
OF PROBLEMS THERE IN THE SECOND PRIMARY AS YOU
FIRST PRIMARY?
NO, SIR; THEY DIDNIT MEANDER AROUND LIKE THEY
BEF'ORE EITHER. IT SEEMED TO BE MUCH QUIETER.
REALLY NO REAL DISRUPTION THAT I CAN RECALL AT
DID YOU EVER RECEIVE A COMPLAINT FROM ANYONE
SHTRIFF OF EDGECOMBE COUNTY WAS INTIMIDATING
ANY VOTING PLACE IN TH; COUNTY ?
NO, SIR.
MR. LEONARD: . THAT'S ALL.
LJUDGE PHILLIPS: NOW, MS. WINNER, THE WIT-
WITH YOLJ.BUT YOU CAN PROCEED AS I HAVE INDICATED.
MS. WINNER: I WANT TO ASK A FEW QUES-
A
NESS I S
T I ONS.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
MAY PROCEED.
ALL RIGHT, THEN. YOU
(plresr I URN PAGE.,
a P. O. Bor 2Ct63
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3;4
CROSS EXAMINATION 2: 75 P. M.
a
PEOPLE ?
BY MS. WINI'IER:
DO YOU THINK YOU CAN LOCATE THAT LIST OF 60
I AM SURE WE HAVE IT IN THE FILES.
DO YOU HAVE IT THERE?
I HOPE SO. BY THE TIME I I^,AS CALLED AND WENT
DOWN AND HELPED GET THESE RECORDS TOGETHER, I AM NOT EN-
TIRELY SURE THAT IT IS.HERE.BUT IT IS IN THE FILES AT THE
EDGECOMBE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS. I AM SURE I COULD
LOCATE IT. WELL, THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A NOTE PUT IN
THE MINUTES THAT THERE IS AN ADDENDUM BECAUSE IT WAS A BI
PROBLEM AND IT WAS DISCUSSED WITH THE BOARD AT A BOARD
ME ET I NG.
A DID THAT LIST INDICATL WHICH PRECINCT IN EDGE-
COMBE COUNTY THESE PTOPI.T HAD BEEN REGI STERED IN?
A THE BEST I COULD.RECOLLECT, LIKE I SAID, SOME
OT' THE ADDRESSES.DID NOT EVEN EXIST WHEN THE LETTER CAME
BACK.
A DID THE LIST INDICATE THE PRECINCT IN EDGE-
COML'IE COUNTY THAT THOSE 6O PEOPLE WERE REGI STERED IN?
A I AM NOT SURE. IT HAD A NAME AND ADDRESS. WE
COULD GO THROUGH AND PUT A PRECINCT ON IT. I COULDNIT
TELL YOU. IT HAS BEEN OVER A YEAR, BUT IT DID HAVE A
F P. O. gor 2ttc!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
9..15
NAME AND A COUNT NUMBER BESIDE EACH OF THE POTENTIAL
VOTERS.
MS. WINNER: I THINK THAT I WOULD LIKE
THE COURT TO GIVE THE WITNESS TIME TO TRY TO FIND THE
LIST OF 60 PEOPLE ON THE COMPLAINT LIST.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL TAKE A LITTLE TIME
OUT AND LET HER LOOK THROUGH THAT IF IT DOESNIT TAKE TOO
LONG. GO AHEAD RIGHT NOW. WE WILL JUST BE IN ABEYANCE
FOR A MINUTE.
.JUDGE DUPREE: DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE WIT-
NESSES THIS AFTERNOON?
MR. LEONARD: NO, I DO NOT.
JUDGE DUPREE: LET HER TAKE I-|ER TIME.
( PAUS E. )
.JUDGE DUPREE: SHE FOUND THEM.
THE WITNESS: . IT IS LISTED BY PRECII.JCT.
JUDGE. PHILLIPS: MS. WINNER, DO YOU WANT TO
TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE?
MR. LEONARD:
MS. HARRELL TO HELP HER LOOK.
14S. W I NNER:
THE Wi TNESS:
I WONDER IF WE COULD HELP
YES, SIR.
IT ALSO HAS COPIES OF THE
REGISTRATION lr,/ITH THAT TO VE[{i'FY THEY DID SIGN.
( PAUSE. )
BY MS. W INNER :
F P. O. Box 2al(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
t, U
CANCE L
PEOP LE
A MS. WHALEY, HOW DID YOU DECIDE WHETHER TO
THE PEOPLE IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY OR TO CANCEL THE
IN NASH COUNTY?
THEY HIID TO COME IN AND SUBSTANTIATE OR VERIFY
TO US WHERE THEY DID LIVE AND TALK TO THE UTILITIES DE-
PARTMENT. THIS MAINLY WENT ON, AS YOU CAN SEE, IN THE
12 TOWNSHIP WHiCH IS FOUR PRECINCTS INSIDE THE CITY OF
ROCKY MOUNT--WHERE THEY WERE PAYING THEIR UTILITIES, WHER
THEIR TELEPHONE IS, THIS TYPE OF THING--DRIVER'S LICENSE.
THEY H/ID TO MAKE THAT DECISION OF WHICH ONE THEY LIVED IN
E ALSO HAD THIS LIST OUT ON ELECTION DAY IF
ANYONE CAME IN TO REFER TO, AND IF THEY COULD HONESTLY
SAY THEY LIVED AT THAT ADDRESS THEN WE CALLED NASH COUNTY
AND THEY HAD CANCELLED OVER THERE FOR ONE REASON OR AN-
OTHER, WE DiD LET THEM VOTE, BUT THEY HAD TO PROVE TO US
THEY LIVED THERE.
OF THESE PEOPLE WERE CAI.ICELLED IN NASHa so soME
COUNTY AS WELL?
IF THEY DETERMINED THEY LIVED IN EDGECOMBE,
THEY REGISTERED AND VOTED IN EDGECOMBE.BUT IF IT WAS
NIISH, THEN THEY CANCELLED IN EDGECOMBE AND VOTED IN NASH.
WI-|AT DID YOU DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY WERE
NOT CANCELLED IN BOTH COUNTIES?
A WE DIDNIT CANCEL IN BOTH COUNTIES. I WORKED
JOINTLY WITH LOUISE LAWSON t^/HO IS THE NASH COUNTY
F P. O. lor 26t(,
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'i'! ; r.JIJ e
SUPERVISOR ON EACH INDIVIDUAL NAME.
A NOW, COULD YOU PULL OUT THE LIST FOR PRECINCT
12 -4?
A UH-HUH.
a How MANY PEOPLE trRE ON THAT LIST?
A 72.
A AND ALL OF THE REST OF THE PEOPLE LIVE IN SOME
OTHER PRECINCT, OR WERE REGISTERED IN SOME OTHER PRE-
C I NCT?
A RIGHT.
a you DoN f T KNow. WHAT ANy Or THOSE t2 pEOpLE
SAID TO FRED BELFIELD, DO YOLI?
A IF THEY SAID WHAT?
a YOIJ DONTT KNOW l,rHAT ANY Ot: THOSE 12 PEOPLE
SAID TO FRED BELFIELD, DO YOU?
A NO.
A AND YOU NEVER HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MR.
BELFIELD ABOUT THIS PROBLEM, DID YOU?
A I NEVER SPOKE TO MR. BELFIELD, NO. I HAVE SEE
HIM TO KNOW THAT I WAS LOOKING AT HIM. HE HAS NEVER BEEN
IN MY OFFICE AND VOICED A COMPLAINT.
a so YoLJ DoNtT KNOW WHAT HE WAS TOLD ABOUT THIS
PRO B LEM?
A NO, I DO NOT.
A ALL RIGHT_. WHEN DID YOU FIRST DO MALL
F P. O. Bor i'tl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
iriS
REGISTRATION iN EDGECOMBE COUNTY?
A WE STARTED BACK IN .JANUARY OF I 82 GOING IN
THE ENCLOSED MALLS.
A ITND THE FIRST PRIMARY WAS IN JUNE; IS THAT
RIGHT?
A YES; JUNE.
A WHO WAS THE PERSONNEL THAT STAFFED THE MALL
REG I STRAT I ONS ?
A I^/HO ASSIGNED THE PERSON TO ATTEND THE MALLS?
a WFIO WERE THE PEOPLE WilO ACTUALLY DID THE RE-
GISTEI{ING .AT THE MALLS?
A REGISTRATION OFFICIALS THAT HAD BEEN WORKING,
FOR EXAMPLE, REGISTRARS AND .JUDGES THAT WERE ALREADY AP-
POINTED TO OFFICE IN I81.
A AND THAT I,JAS A COMBINED EFFORT iN NASH COUNTY
REG I STRAT I ON ?
A TO START WITH IT WAS JUST EDGECOMBE. NASH
HAD NOT HAD GOOD RESPONSE. THEY HAD BEEN IN THE MALLS
BEFORE AND DID NOT WANT TO ASSUME PART OF THE COST, SO
EDGECOMBE TOOK IT ON THEMSELVES TO DO IT AND WE PAID FOR
THAT BILL 1OO PERCENT.
A WA,S THAT THE FIRST TIME THAT ANY OF THOSE
REGISTRARS HAD CONDUCTED REGISTRATIONS THAT WAS OUTSIDE
OF THE PRECINCT?
A hIO, MAIAM; THEY WERE SPECIAL REGI STRATION
A P. O. eor 1tr143
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PREClSION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC.
P. O. Bor 20tdt
lJ R.bhh. Nodh c.roln. zrctl
MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
iir (\
COMMISSIONERS GOING IN THERE. I DID MOST OF THE MALL
REGISTRATION MYSELF WITH ANOTHER LADY--TI,,O LADIES OUT
OF THE OFFICE. WE ONLY CALLED IN SOMEONE ELSE IF ONE OF
US COULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE WE WERE MORE FAMILIAR WITH
THE BOUNDARIES AND WE COULD EXPEDITE THE REGISTRATION
PROCEDURE.
MS. WINNER: I DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER
QUESTIONS AI{D I DO NOT ANTICIPATE WANTING TO CALL HER
BACK.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MS. WINNER.
BY MS. WINNER:
a oNE MORE QUESTION. DID YOU LOCATE THE COM-
PLAiNT SHEET?
A FROM ELECTION DAY, NO; I WILL CONTINUE LOOKING
I AM SURE IT IS IN HERE.
. a WHEN you LocATE rr, wtulo You GIVE IT To MR.
LEONARD, OR |4AKE A COPY OF IT FOR HiM?
A IF WE HAVE IT.
MS. WINNER: THANK YOU.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: THANK YOU.
MR. LEONARD:
QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
PROCEED.
I HAVE LJUST A COUPLE OF
.JUDGE PH I LLI PS : ALL RI GHT. YOU MAY
(puERsE TURN PAGb,.)
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
Jia
REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2:30 P.M.'
BY MR. LEONARD:
a i FoRGoT TO ASK yOU, MS. WHALEY, yOU WERE SUB_
POEANED TO BE HERE?
A YES, SIR.
A .JUST TAKE THE SHEET OUT FOR THE OTHER PRECINCT
IN 12; IN 72-1, I THINK--HOW MANY ARE ON THAT LIST?
A 23.
a AND HOW MANY ON 12-2?
A 12.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS
YOUR HONOR?
BY MR. LEONARD:
a ANiD HOW ABOUT 12-3? 72-3 HAS HOW t4ANy?
A 13.
a AND t2-4
''rnr**youTESTIFIEDTO.
ISTHERE
ANOTHER. ?
A I2-I IS THE PRECINCT OVER THERE. EViDENTLY
THERE WEF:E NOT ANY IN I2-I TO NOTIFY. I DONIT HAVE ANY
LIST.
a t?-t rs THE FrRST ONE YOU COUNTED?
A 23.
a ArlY ot'HERS I N 12?
A No,.sIR.
F P, O. lor 6rC3
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
"i; il
A ARE THOSE PRECINCTS ALL GENERALLY IN THE
SAME LOCAT ION?
A THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT; YES, SIR.
A WHERE ARE THE POLLING PLACES FOR THOSE PRE-
CINCTS?
A I2.I IS AT CENTRAL FIRE STATION ON GEORGE
STREET. I2-2 IS BI.SSETT SCHOOL ON BRANCH. I2-3 IS WEST
EDGECOMBE SCI-IOOL OUT ON THE HIGITWAY OUTSIDE OF ROCKY
MOUNT. !2-4 IS .J.W. PARKER .JUNIOR HIGH.
A ARE THOSE IN THE SAME GEOGRAPHIC AREA?
A YES, SIR; WITH.IN THE CITY OF ROCKY MOUNT.
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL I HAVE.
JUDGE BRITT: DO ALL THOSE POLLING PLACE
HAVE TELEPHONES IN THE}'I?
THE WITNESS: YES, SIR; THEY Do. IF NoT
WE I-IAVE ONE INSTALLED THERE.
MS. WINNER: CAN WE GOT A COPY OF.JUST
THE LISI' FROM PRECINCT I2-4? COULD WE PUT IT IN EVIDENCE
WOULD YOU PUT IT,IN EVIDENCE?
MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO
PUTTING ALL FOUR OF THOSE PRECINCTS IN.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: SINCE WE HAVE GONE THIS
FAR INTO THIS MATTER, WHY DON'T WE GO AHEAD THE WHOLE WAY
AI\JD GET THEM MARKED AS EXHI BITS AND INTRODUCE THEM.
MR. I,.EONARD: COUNSEL WANTS JUST THE I2I
F P, O. Bor Qtl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
{4ai
IS THAT THE IDEA? DOES THE COURT WANT ALL OF THE
SHEETS FOR THAT ELECTiON FROM THE ENTIRE COUNTY? HOW
MANY ARE THERE, MS. WHALEY?
THE WiTNESS: 2O PRECINCTS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I UNDERSTAND MS. WINNER
WAS CONCERNED ABOUT 12-4 AND THEN THE THOUGHT WAS THAT
MAYBE t2-t, 2, 3 AND 4 ABOUT ALL OF WHICI-t SOME QUESTION
HAS BEEN ASKED. THEY MIGHT AS WELL COME IN.
MR. LEONARD: WOULD THE COUNSEL AND THE
COURT TRUST COUNSEL FOR THE STATE TO TAKE THESE FOUR
DOCUMENTS AND MAKE COPIES AND RETURN THE OP.IGINALS TO
MS. WHALEY AND MARK THEM AND DELIVER THEM IN HERE ON
MONDAY ?
MS. l/./ I NNER : I CERTAINLY TRUST COUNSEL
TO DO THAT. I WOULD REQUEST THAT THEY DO THAT AND I
THINK WE COULD PUl' ALL THE SHEETS IN FROM THE OTHER PRE-
CINCTS AS WELL SINCE THE PROBLEM APPARENTLY DID NOT JUST
EXIST IN THE T2 PRECINCTS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT SEEMS TO BE THAT IS
ENCUMBERING THE RECORD WITH MATTER ABOUT WHiCH THERE HAS
BEEN NO TESTIMONY AND AS TO WHICH THE COURT WILL NOT BE
INCLINED TO ALLOW ANY TESTIMONY. IT SEEMS TO ME THIS
MATTER HAS BEEN RUN OUT, IN VIEW OF THE ULTIMATE ISSUE
IN THIS CASE, AS FAR AS IT OUGHT TO BE RUN OUT. WE HAVE
CONFLICTING TESTiMONY ABOUT THE SIGNIFiCANCE OF SOME
F P. O.8or 26t83
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
*7 "i o)
EVENTS THAT TOOK PLP.CE IN ONE PRECINCT IN ROCKY MOUNT
AND I BELIEVE THE COURT HAS EMPLOYED ALL OF THE EVIDENCE
BEARING UPOI..I THE CREDI BI LITY O[= THE WI TNESSES TO THI S AND
THE POSSIBILITY OF MISUNDERSTANDING THAT THE COURT COULD
COULD POSSIBLY ABSOF.B. SO MY DISPOSITION WOULD BE TO SAY
THAT WE DO NOT NEED, AS FAR AS THE COURT I S CONCERNED,
ANY O[: THESE EXHIBITS.BUT IF COUNSEL IS DETERMINED TO
HAVE THEM ADMITTED, THEY HAVE BEEN AUTHENTICATED AND WE
WILL TAKE ANY OF t2-1r 21 3, OR 4 THAT HAS BEEN AUTHENTI-
CATED AND THAT'S THE END OF IT.
WINNER: I WOULD .JUST AS SOON
HAVE ANY OF THEM IN EVIDENCE IF I COULD HAVE A COPY
12-4.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: THAT
NOT
OF
COUNSEL AND WE ARE CONCERNED AS THE
THE MATTER IN EVIDENCE. THAT IS THE
I ADDRESS MY REMARKS.AND I WILL CALL
TO MAKE A DETERMINATION WHETHER YOU
ONE OF THOSE FOUR SHEETS IN EVIDENCE
HAVE BEEN AUTHENTICATED AND WE WILL
THAT DECISION AND LETIS MOVE ON.
IS A MATTER BETWEEN
COURT WITH GETTING
ONLY POINT TO WHICH
ON BOTH COUNSEL NOW
WANT TO INTRODUCE ANY
AS EXHI BITS. THEY
ADMI T THEM, BUT MAKE
MR. LEONARD: MY DECISION IS THAT I DO
NOT WANT TO I NTRODUCE ANY OF THEM. I F COUNSEL WANTS OI.IE,
NUMBER FOUR, I N THEN I WOULD L I KE TO HAVE ).2-t, 2 AND 3.
MS. WINNER: I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE NONE
F P. O. Bor 2ltB
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PBECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3 t,"
THEM IN. I WOULD LIKE A COPY OF I2-4.
MR. LEONARD: WE WILL ACCOMMODATE YOU.
MAY THE WITNESS BE EXCUSED?
(WITNESS EXCUSED. )
MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL WE HAVE, YOUR
HONOR. .
JUDGE PHILLIPS: FOR THE DAY?
THEN WE WILL RECESS UNTIL MONDAY AT 2iOO P.M.
(rnr pRocEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 2i35 p.M.r To
RECONVENE ON MONDAY, .JULY 30 , tg93, AT 2 : 0 0
P.M.)
F P. O. lor 2tlal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J.t J
CERTIFICATE
T, .JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE
PRECEDING 173 PAGES REPRE5ENT A TRUE AND
ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD
ON FRIDAY, JULY 29, 1y83, AT RALE,IGH, NURTH
CAROL I NA.
JO B. BUSH, CVR
OFFICIAL P.EPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH. CAROLINA
ft P. O. 8or 2tl$
l-J e.hoh. tbnh Crroln. TCtt