Trial Transcript Volume 5 (Redacted)
Public Court Documents
July 29, 1983
174 pages
Cite this item
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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 3, 1985. 97a18a68-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/af7e65d6-6534-466c-b51b-cea21b36d272/trial-transcript-volume-3. Accessed April 06, 2025.
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457.1
PFIOENIX, ARIZONA
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
RALEIGH DIVISION
RALPH GINGLES, ET AL.,
RUFUS EDMI STEN, ETC.,
ET AL.,
ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL.
JAMES B. HUNT, JR., ETC.
ET AL.,
JOHN .J . CAVANAGH, ET AL.
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8r-203-Crv-5
B1-1066-CrV-5
82-545-CiV-5
ALEX K.
ET AL. ,
BROCK, ETC.,
DEFENDANTS.
TR IAL BEFORE
THE HONORABLE .J. DICKSON
THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T.
T HE IIONORAB LE W . EAR L
PHILLIPS
DUPREE, JR.
BRITT
F P. O. lor ,raB
lJ Rlnch, taodh i-or- arcrr
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2
3
374
AT RALEIGH: WEDNESDAY, .JULY 27, 1983
VOLUME ] OF B
PAGES 373 THROUGH 598
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
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M,AIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, AilZOT.IAF t O- id ,tas
u aenel xortt C.drm 2rlrt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBTNG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
APPEARANCES
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAIIJTIFFS:
LESLIE .J. WINNER, ESQUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
951 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 28202
ARTHUR J. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER 6 KENERLY
]09 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLTNA 28144
ROBERT N. HUNTER, .JR. , ESQU I RE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402
LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUITE 203O
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
JERR I S LEONARD, ESQU IRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 1 7TH STREET, N. W.
I^JASH INGTON, D. C. 2 0 006
LIAMES WALLACE, JR. , ESQU I RE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-457.1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TABLE OF CONTENTS
VOIRWITNESSES -D-IRECI CROSS REDIRECT RECRO9S DIRE EXAI4
PLAINTIFFS
PAUL LUEBKE
BY MS. GUTNTER 319_393 425_427 jg3_3g6
396-412
BY MR. LEONARD 4tZ_425
PHYLLIS D. LYNCH
BY MS. GUINIER 427_+48
BY MR. LEONARD
BY JUDGE DUPREE
SAMUEL L. REID
BY MS. GUINIER 470-L+79
449-46 5
t+85-r+96
479-4d5 4s2_+93
4b5-470
+86-48u
48lJ-492
BY MR. LEONARD
BY JUDGE DUPREE
BY JUDG.E PHILLIPS
LARRY BUNNELL LITTLE
BY MS. WINNER 591_596
DE FE NDANTS
ROBERT W. SPEARMAN
BY MR. LEONARD r+9+_5+j 5g2_SgO
BY MS. WINNER 5+3-5Bz
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. tNC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TABLE OF CONTENTS ( COrur I NUED )
EXHIBITS
NUMBER
PLAINTIFFS
53(c)
st(a)
5l (.J )
56-7 0
70(A)
70(B)
7t
86
DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE I VED
HEL14S CAMPAI GN ADVERTI SEMENT
HELMS CAMPAIGN ADVERTISEMENT
LIST OF NEWSPAPERS AND RADIO
S TAT I ONS
COUNTY DEMOGRAPHIC DATA
DEMOGRAPHIC DIFFERENCES IN
NORTH CAROLINA
CAT SCORES--CHARLOTTE-MECK-
LENBURG SCHOOL SYSTEM
IIPATTERNS OF PAY IN NORTH
CAROLINA STATE GOVERNMENT''
LETTER, BULLOCK TO U. S.
381
388
385
+08
397
401
404
196
395
411
411
t+11
4t2
DEPARTMENT oF JUSTICE, t/23/ g2 5bo
DE FENDANT S
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
II/30/81 MEMORANDUM
12/14/87 MEMORANDUM
I/29/82 MEMORANDUM
2 / LB / 82 LETTER
3/82 PRESS RELEASE
LIST OF ORGANTZAT IONS
4/28/82 LETTER
MANUAL
500
500
500
501
501
501
502
503
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TABLE OF CONTENTS (coNrrruueo)
NUI'1Bt:R
9
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DESCRIPTION MARKED
503
504
504
505
505
506
507
508
508
509
RECE I VED
510
510
510
5r0
5r0
510
5I0
5 r0
5I0
410
35
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REPORT ON PUBLIC SERVICE
ANNOUNCEMEI.JT PROGRAM
MEMORANDUM RE NEW LEGISLATION
8/27 /82 MEMORANDUM
PRESS RELEASE
STATISTICS 2/82_IO/82
LETTER RE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR
NEW LEGISLATION
ROSTER OF COUNTY ELECTIONS
BOARD MEMBERS
SPEARMAN RESUME
L2/28/70 MEMORANDUM
RULES AND PROCEDURES FOR
II/72 ELECTION
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
F U R T H E R P R o C E E D I N G S 9:OO A.il\
TH I S CAUS E CAME ON .,FOR FURTHER, 'TR I'AL BE FORE
THE HONORABLE Lt. DICKSON pHILLIpS,..UNITED
STATES CIRCUIT JUDGE; THE HoNoRABLE FRANKLIN
T. DUPREE, JR., UNITED STATES CHIEF DISTRICT
TJUDGE; AND W. EARL BRI TT, UN I TED STATES
DISTRICT.JUDGE, AT RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA,
ON WEDNESDAY, .JULY 27, LgB3, AT 9:00 A.M.
LJUDGE DUPREE : GOOD MORN ING, LAD I ES
AND GENTLEMEN.
(pausr. )
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : YOU MAY PROCEED.
(wnrReueoru,
:AUL
LUEBKE
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTI F I ED FURTHER AS FOLLOI,JS : )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 9:01 A.M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DR. LUEBKE, YOU HAVE USED THE TERM ''RACIAL
APPEAL'' IN YOUR TESTIMONY. WOULD YOU PLEASE DEFINE THE
TERM IIRACIAL APPEAL'' AS YOU HAVE USED IT?
A YES. A RACIAL APPEAL OCCURS }{HEN A CANDIDATE''o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IDENTIFIES HIS OPPONENT 8Y RACE OR SUPPORTERS OF HIS
OPPONENT BY RACE. SECONDLY, IT CAN OCCUR WHEN THE MASS
MEDIA IN COVERAGE OF CAMPAIGNS IDENTIFIES POLITICAL
OPPONENTS BY RACE.
YOU HAVE ALSO USED THE TERM IIRAC IAL TELE-
YOU HAVE USED IT
OVERT OR SUBTLE.
GRAPHING.II WHAT DOES THAT TERM MEAN AS
A RACIAL APPEALS CAN BE EITHER
RACIAL TELEGRAPHING MEANS SUBTLE APPEALS.
A YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY, I BELIEVE, THAT YOU
HAD ANALYZED THE NASCEMSENATE CAMPAIGN IN NORTH CAROLINA;
IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A AND HAVE YOU FORMED ANY OPINIONS AS TO WHETHE
ANY RACIAL APPEALS ARE BEING MADE IN THIS CAMPAIGN?
YE S.
ON WHAT BA.SIS HAVE YOU FORMED THOSE OPINIONS?
I HAVE REVIEWED THE RECORDS OF THE TWO LIKELY
CANDIDATES IN THIS RACE. THEY HAVE EACH HELD STATEVJIDE
OFFICE SINCE I972. I REVIEWED DOCUMENTS AT THE NORTH
CAROLINA COLLECTION, WILSON LIBRARY, IN CHAPEL HILL. I
HAVE STUDIED NEWSPAPERS, BOTH STATEWIDE--THE GREENSBORO
DAILY NEWS, THE NEWS AND OBSERVER, THE DURHAM MORNING
HERALD--AS WELL AS THE WASTIINGTON POST AND THE NEW .YORK
TIMES. I HAVE LOOKED AT CAMPAIGN DOCUMENTS, LISTS OF
SUPPORTERS, CAMPAIGN ADVERTI SEMENTS.o
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME HAVE YOU BEEN
LOOKING AT NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS AND THE POLITICAL ADVER-
TISEMENTS OF THESE POTENTIAL CANDIDATES?
A I HAVE BEEN LOOKING OVER THIS IN DETAIL SINCE
THE SUMMER OF 1982.
A WHAT IS YOUR OPINION WHETHER RACIAL APPEALS
ARE BEING MADE IN THIS NASCENT CAMPAIGN?
A THERE ARE RACIAL APPEALS.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT 53rc) ANO AST YOU TO IDENTIFY IT.
(pUnINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 55(C)
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHERE DOES oUR coPY oF
THAT APPEAR? DO WE HAVE A COPY OF THAT IN THESE
MATERIALS?
MS. WINNER: YES, SIR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS IT IN THE BLACK OR IN
THE FOLDER?
MS. WINNER: IT IS IN THE BLACK NOTE-
BOOK. AND IT SHOULD BE IN NUMERICAL ORDER. 53 IS JUST
A STACK. EACH ONE IS NOT INDIVIDUALLY LABELED. 5'(C)
WOULD BE THE THIRD ONE.
JUDGE BRITT: I MIGHT COMMENT FOR
THE PURPOSE OF THE RECORD THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO
REFER TO THE THIRD PAGE OF EXHIBIT 53, BECAUSE AGAIN,
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AN APPELLATE COURT MAY VERY WELL LOOK AT THIS RECORD.
AND YOU CANTT STAND UP AND EXPLAIN TO THET4 THAT THERE IS
NOT A (C) THERE, couNsEL.
Ms. GUINIER: THANK YoU, YOUR HoNoR.
BY MS.. GUINIER:
A DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE THIRD PAGE OF
EXHIBIT 53 IN FRONT OF YOU?
A I DO.
A CAN YOU IDENTIFY IT?
A YES.
A WHAT IS IT?
A IT IS A NEWSPAPER ADVERTISEMENT BY THE HELMS
FOR SENATE CAMPAIGN.
A DID THIS PARTICULAR ADVERTISEMENT FORM PART
OF THE BASIS FOR YOUR OPINION THAT RACIAL APPEALS ARE
TAKING PLACE IN THIS PARTICULAR CAMPAIGN?
A YES.
A DO YOU KNOW WHERE, THTS PARTICULAR ADVERTISE-
MENT HAS APPEARED?
A YES.
A WHERE HAS IT APPEARED?
A IT HAS APPEARED IN AT LEAST 25 NEWSPAPERS,
WEEKLIES AND DAILIES, ACROSS THE STATE oF NORTH CAROLIN
I HAVE A LIST WHICH IS IDENTIFIED IN MY NOTES AS 5](J).
JUDGE PHILLIPS: LET ME ASK oI.I THAT PoINT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
,79-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AGAIN: THE ORIGINAL EXHIBIT--IS
(a), (c)? IS IT JUST THAT t,lE Do
DES I GNAT I ON ?
MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. I BELIEVE THE
BEST WAY TO PROCEED WOULD BE TO ASK THE COURT TO MARK
THESE (A), cB), (C), (D) NOW SO THAT IT WILL BE CLEAR
IN THE RECORD, BECAUSE WE DO NOT INTEND TO INTRODUCE
THE WHOLE EXHTBIT. HOWEVER, 53(.J) tS MARKED.
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : WELL, LETIS PAUSE HERE
AND GET HIS EXHIBIT, MADAM CLERK, MARKED IN THE WAY
SUGGESTED. DO YOU HAVE THAT? TAKE A MOMENT HERE. MR.
LEONARD, DO.YOU WANT TO OBSERVE THIS PROCESS OF MARKING?
(PAUSE. )
LETIS SIMPLY HAVE THE COURT DIRECT AT THIS
TIME THAT PLAINTIFFST EXHIBIT 53, WHICH CONSISTS OF
EIGHT PAGES, BE MARK.ED WITH THE FIRST SHEET 53, THE
sECOND SHEET 53(A) AND SO ON--(B), (C), (D), (E), (F)
AND (G).
MS. I,JII'INER:
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
MARKED 53(A)?
MS. WINNER:
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
MISDIRECTED YOU, THEN. THE
5J(A) AND THE SECOND (B) AND
IT LETTERED 53(A),
NOT HAVE THAT
THERE IS ALSO AN (N).
WELL, IS THE FIRST SHEET
YES, SIR.
MADAM CLERK, I HAVE
FIRST SHEET SHOULD BE MARKED
SO ON THROUGH 5](H)..O
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MS. WINNER:
COURT FOR THIS INCONVENIENCE.
I APOLOGIZE TO THE
JUDGE PHILLIPS: DOES THE WITNESS HAVE
HIS MARKED IN THAT WAY?
(PAUSE. )
JUDGE BRITT:
EXHIBIT REFERRED TO, COUNSEL?
MS. GU IN IER:
JUDGE BRITT:
I DENTI FI ED ?
. MR. LEONARD:
WHAT WAS THE LAST
EXHIBIT 53(.J).
IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE
wE DO, YOUR HoNOR.
IN HERE?
M3. GUINIER: THAT I S THE DOCUMENT THA
I SUBMITTED AT THE END OF THE RECESS--THE BEGINNING OF
THE LAST SESSION OF COURT. AND IT HAS ALREADY BEEN
RECE I VED .
.JUDGE BRITT: VERY GOOD. THANK YOU.
I JUST NEEDED TO BE DIRECTED WHERE IT IS. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: ,. ALL RIGHT, NOW. DOES
THE WITNESS AND COUNSEL AND THE CLERK ALL HAVE THESE
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS: YOU MAY PROCEED.
MS. GUINIER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFSI
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
EXHIBIT 53CJ), COULD YOU.JUST IDENTIFY THAT?
(PIAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 5](.J)
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
A YES. THIS IS--_
a (rrureRPosrNG) wnnr rs rT?
A THIS IS A LIST OF NEWSPAPERS AND RADIO
STATIONS AROUND NORTH CAROLINA WHICH HAVE BROADCAST OR
PRINTED THE NEWSPAPER AND RADIO ADVERTISEMENTS PUBLISHED
BY THE HELMS FOR SENATE CAMPAIGN.
A NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION BACK TO
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 53(C), WHAT PART OF THIS ADVERTISE-
MENT IN YOUR OPINION IS A RACIAL APPEAL?
A IN MY OPINION, IN THIS ADVERTISEMENT WE NEED
TO LOOK AT THE PICTURE.
.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: DONI T, PLEASE, PUT IT IN
TERMS IIWE NEED TO LOOK AT.II
THE WITNESS: THE PICTURE---
JUDGE PHILLIPS I ' (INTTRPOSING) TRY TO
RESPOND TO THE QUESTION. WHAT, ,IN YOUR OPINION, IN
THIS PARTICULAR EXHIBIT CONSTITUTES A RACIAL APPEAL?
THE WI TNESS : IN CONTEXT, SIR, THE
PICTURE AND THE THREE FINAL SENTENCES OF THE ADVERTISE-
MENT.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE PICTURE?
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES. THE PICTURE IS OF GOVERNOR HUNT AND
REVEREND JESSE.JACKSON MEETING IN THE EXECUTIVE MANSION
oN MARCH 11, 1983--ON MARCH 1lTH.
A CAN YOU OR WOULD YOU PLEASE READ THE THREE
SENTENCES THAT IN YOUR OPINION ARE A RACIAL APPEAL?
A l|...hfE MUST REGISTER AT LEAST 200,000 BLACK
VOTERS IN NORTH CAROLINA IN THE NEXT TWO
MONTHS (UrSSr .JACKSON). GOVERNOR .,JAMES B.
HUNT, JR. WANTS THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS
TO BOOST MINORITY VOTER REGISTRATION IN
NoRTH CAROL I NA, rt
FROM THE CHAPEL HILL NEWSPAPER.
THIRD; THE TEXT OF THE AD:
"...ASK YOURSELF, I IS THIS A PROPER USE 0F
TAXPAYERSI FUNDS?III
A WHY, iN YOUR OPINION, IS THE PICTURE A RACIAL
APPEAL ?
A IT IS A RACIAL APPEAL BECAUSE IT IS DRAWING
TO THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC THAT AN OPPONENT OR LIKEL
OPPONENT HAS A CONTROVERSIAL BLACK LEADER IN HIS OFFICE.
A IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT ABOUT THE THREE SEN-
TENCES THAT YOU READ IS A RACIAL APPEAL?
A THE THREE SENTENCES WHICH I READ DRAW ATTEN-
TION TO THE FACT THAT BLACK VOTERS ARE BEING REGISTERED.
AND IT QUESTIONS WTIETHER OR NOT IT IS LEGITIMATE FOR A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
GOVERNOR TO SUPPORT THE VOTER REGISTRATION OF BLACKS.
a Do You HAVE IN FRONT OF 'YOU, DR. LUEBKE , A'
COPY OF PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBITS 22 AND 23?
A I DO NOT HAVE IT IN FRONT OF ME.
MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE
WITNESS?
JUDGE PHI LLIPS: YES.
THE WITNESS:
AND 23 IN FRONT OF ME.
I NOW HAVE EXHIBITS 22
BY MS. GUINI ER :
A WERE YOU PRESENT IN THE COURTROOM WHEN
PROFESSOR WATSON IDENTIFIED THOSE DOCUT4ENTS?
A I WAS.
A CAN YOU COMPARE THE CARTOONS IN PLAINTIFFSI
EXHIBITS 22 AND 23 WITH THE POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENT IN
PLAINTI FFS I EXH I BIT 53(C)?
A YES.
a wouLD You, PLEASE?
A YES. I WOULD---
MR. LEONARD: (trureRpostNe) IF THE
COURT PLEASE, I AM GOING TO OBJECT TO THAT QUESTION
BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE QUESTION IS ATTEMPTING
TO ELICIT THE WITNESSI OPINION OR THE QUESTION IS SIMPLY
''WOULD YOU COMPARE.I' IT I S AN IMPROPER QUESTION WITHOUT
FOUNDAT I ON.'o
A P- O. Eor 2tlGl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
HEAR HIS ANSWER AND SEE WHAT IT
THE WITNESS:
AND 23 AND 53rc) aruo SEE IN THE
CONTINUITY IN RACIAL POLITICS.
BY MS. GUINIER:
OVERRULED. WE I./ILL
COMES OUT.
I COMPARE EXHIBITS 22
TWO WHAT I REFER TO AS
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
BY 'ICONT I NUI TY, II I MEAN THAT THEME S WH I CH
WERE EXTREMELY OVERT IN EXHIBITS 22 AND 23, WHICH I
RECALL TO BE I.898,, ARE SUBTLE--MORE SUBTLE_-IN 1985.
AND YET THE CONTENT OF THE EXHIBIT SHOWS SIMILARITiES,
THAT IS, THE QUESTION IS BEING RAISED WHETHER
IT IS LEGITIMATE FOR A GOVERNOR WHO IS WHITE TO BE
MEETING WITH A POLITICAL LEADER--CONTROVERSIAL POLITICAL
LEADER--WHO IS BLACK.
53(H)?
WOULD YOU TURN NOW TO PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT
(pLRINTIFFS
WAS MARKED
A COPY OF THAT
EXHIBIT No. 53(H)
FOR IDENTIFICATION.
IN FRONT OF YOU?DO YOU HAVE
I DO.
CAN YOU IDENTIFY THAT, PLEASE?
THIS IS A POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENT--CAMPAIGN
ADVERTISEMENT--FROM THE HELMS FOR SENATE ORGANIZATION.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE THIS ADVERTISEMENT APPEAR
A
F P. O. 8or 2El8il
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES.
A WHERE IS THAT?
A IT APPEARED IN NEWSPAPERS-_DAILY AND WEEKLY
NEWSPAPERS_-ACROSS NORTH CAROLINA IN THE SAME PLACES AS
THE PREVIOUS EXHIBIT-_AT LEAST 25 NEWSPAPERS.
A AND THOSE ARE LISTED IN PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT
53G)?
A YES. THEY ARE LISTED IN EXHIBIT 5l(.J).
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS HE TESTIFYING TO THE
TIME THAT THESE APPEARED? T SEE THAT THERE IS AN ENTRY
ON THIS 5'(H). BUT HAS HE TESTIFIED AS TO THE TIMEFRAME
IF HE CAN?
BY MS. GUINIER:
A ARE YOU AI^'ARE OF THE TIMEFRAME IN WHICH THESE
PARTICULAR ADVERTISEMENTS APPEARED IN THE NE\^,SPAPERS
INDICATED IN PLAINTIF.FST EXHIBIT 53(.J)?
A YES.
A WHAT IS THAT TIMEFRAME?
A SPRING 198].
a DoES PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 5r(C) nOnm PART OF
THE BASIS OF YOUR OPINION THAT A RACIAL APPEAL IS BEING
MADE IN THIS NASCENT CAMPAIGN?
A YES.
a WHAT PART OF PLAINTIFFST EXHIBIT 53(H) OO
YOU CONSIDER A RACIAL APPEAL?
"o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBlNG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHCENIX, ARIZONA
A THE PICTURE OF THE TEACHERSI UNTON ON STRIK
IN CONNECTION WITH THE SENTENCE ABOVE THE PICTURE.
A WHY DO YOU CONSIDER THIS TO BE A RACIAL
APPEAL ?
THE LANGUAGE ABOVE THE PICTURE IS ASSOCIATiNG
HUNT--GOVERNOR HUNT--T.JITH PUBLIC EDUCATION. THE PICTURE
SHOWS BLACK SCHOOL TEACHERS ON STRIKE ON A PICKET LiNE.
THE MEANING IN TERMS OF RACIAL TELEGRAPHING IS THAT THE
CANDIDATE--THE LIKELY WHITE CANDIDATE_-IS ASSOCIATED
WITH DISRUPTIVE BLACK VOTERS--I.E., BLACK TEACHERS WHO
ARE ON STRIKE ON A PICKET LINE.
A IS THERE A CONNECTION BETWEEN RACIAL APPEALS
AND RACE AS A FACTOR IN ELECTIONS?
YES.
WHAT IS THAT CONNECTION?
A RACIAL APPEALS, EITHER OVERT OR SUBTLE--RACI
TELEGRAPHING--CAN INCREASE THE TURNOUT IN AN ELECTION.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A BY I'IAKING VOTERS AWARE OF THE RACE OF ONEIS
OPPONENT OR THE RACE OF SUPPORTERS OF ONE'S OPPONENT,
ONE CAN INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD THAT VOTERS WILL TURN
OUT WHO OTHERWISE WOULD STAY HOME.
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,
MOVE TO STRIKE THAT ANSWER. THERE IS NO FOUNDATION
THIS RECORD AT THIS-POINT FROM THIS WITNESS OR ANY
a
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PRECISION Ri:PORTING
AN9 TRANSCRTBTNG, rNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OTHER WITNESS OR ANY OTHER
SUPPORT THAT CONCLUSION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
IT AND GIVE IT THE WEIGHT
IS ENTITLED AS A MATTER OF
OVERRULED.
DOCUMENTARY EVI DENCE TO
WELL, WE WILL CONSIDER
TO WHICH THE COURT THINKS IT
PROBAT I VE FORCE. OB.J ECT I ON
I S THAT
BY MS. GUINIER:
a AS A POLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST, HoW ARE YOU ABLE
TO MAKE THAT CONNECTION?
A I TESTIFIED PREVIOUSLY ABOUT THE.JIMMY GREEN-
HOWARD LEE RUNOFF IN I976, WHERE I IDENTIFIED INCREASED
TURNOUTS IN HIGH BLACK AREAS OF THE STATE. THAT IS THE
KIND OF INFERENCE WHICH WE CAN DRAW WITHIN POLITICAL
SOCIOLOGY ABOUT THE ASSOCIATION BETWEEN RACIAL APPEALS
AND ELECTORAL PARTICIPATION.
a You sA I D THE rr I NCREAS ED TURNOUT . rr
TURNOUT AMONG WHITE VOTERS OR BLACK VOTERS?
A I FOUND THE TURNOUT TO BE IN HIGH--IN
COUNTIES IN EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA WITH HIGH PERCENTAGES
OF BLACKS. BUT THE TURNOUT AMONG WHITE VOTERS WAS CON-
S I DERABLY H I GHER THAT.I I N THOSE PARTS OF THE STATE WHERE
THERE WAS A LOI\, BLACK POPULATION.
AND I ALSO TESTIFIED THAT AN ADVERTISEMENT
WHICH I IDENTIFIED AS RACIAL TELEGRAPHING IN THE GREEN
AND LEE CAMPAIG"i HAD BEEN PUBLISHED IN EASTERN NORTH
O
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CAROL INA.
MS. GUINIER: MAYIHAVEAMOMENT,
PLEASE?
(PAUSE. )
MS. GUINIER: AT THIS POINT, PLAINTIF.
MOVE THE ADMISSION OF PLAINTIFFS EXHIBITS 53rc) AruO 53(Fi,.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I
DONI T KNOW REALLY WHAT PROCEDURE YOUR HONORS HAVE
ADOPTED. YOU HAVE BEEN TAKING THESE EXHIBITS WHICH I
CLAIM ARE PREJUDICIAL, ARE NOT PROPER, ARE WITHOUT
FOUNDATION, ARE HEARSAY SUB.JECT TO A CONTINUING
OBJ ECT I ON.
AT SOME POINT DURING THIS TRIAL I WOULD LIKE
TO BE HEARD ON THE I SSUE AS TO WHY THESE DOCUMENTS
SHOULD NOT GO INTO THIS RECORD. I THINK THEY ARE HIGHLY
PREJUDICIAL.
.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : MR. LEONARD/ YOU HAVE
BEEN HEARD ON THE EARL I ER L'I ST OF EXH I B I TS THAT WERE
INTRODUCTION IN CONNECTION WITH THE TESTIMONY OF DR.
WATSON. AND WE DID RESERVE AN OB!'ECTION. AND AT THE
END OF THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY, I BELIEVE THE RECORD WILL
SHOW THAT THE COURT DID RULE THAT THE OB.JECTION WAS
OVERRULED.
MR. LEONARD:
I iE SE DOCUMENTS AT TJl I S T I ME ?
THEN MAY I BE HEARD ON
A P. O.8or lBlcl
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MR. LEONARD: I WILL GLADLY WITHHOLD,
BECAUSE I THINK I AM GOING TO ASK TO VOIR DIRE THIS
WITNESS, MAYBE UNTIL COUNSEL IS THROUGH AND HAS OFFERED
ALL THE DOCUMENTS, BECAUSE I BELIEVE I AM GOING TO HAVE
THE SAME OBJECTION AND THE SAME VOIR DIRE QUESTIONS
WITH RESPECT TO THE REST OF THEM, IF SHE IS PLANNING
ON PUTTING THE REST OF THEM IN.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
MR. LEONARD:
.JUDGE PHiLLIPS:
53(c) Rruo 53(H).
YE S.
IF THE COURT PLEASE---
IITHESE DOCUMENTSI' ARE
YOUR HONOR, AT THIS
INTRODUCE PLAINTIFFSI
I,JE WILL HEAR YOU RIGHT
MAY I VOIR DIRE THE
o
POINT WE
EXHIBITS
NOW.
WITNESS?
MS. GUINIER:
ARE PLANNING ONLY TO
5t(c) AND 53(H).
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
MR. LEONARD:
J UDGE PH I I..L I PS :
VOIR
YOU MAY.
DIRE 9 :27
A CARPETBAGGER
(
I
a
BY MR. LEONARD:
DR. LUEBKE, DO YOU KNOW WHAT
YE S.
PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OfFICE, RALEIG}', A32.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
/:'
IS?
F P. o. Bor 2ltB
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.90S5
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BOTH BEING BORN IN CHICAGO, ARE
A SENSE IN THE SOUTH?
A YES.
IS THAT TERM IN POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY GENERALLY
ACCEPTED AND IDENTIFIED WITH ANOTHER TERM IN POLITICS?
I DONIT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ASKING, SIR.
DO YOUR STUDIES OF POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY SHOW
THAT WHEN A OANDIDATE RUNNING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN ONE
STATES BRINGS PEOPLE IN FROM ANOTHER STATE THAT THERE IS
SOME RESENTMENT TOWARD THAT CANDIDATE FOR BRINGING IN
OUT-OF-STATERS INTO HIS CAMPAIGN?
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : MR. LEONARD, MIGHT I
INQUIRE AS TO WHAT THE OB.JECT OF YOUR VOIR DIRE IS? AS
I UNDERSTAI.ID TT, YOU HAVE MADE AN OBJECTION ON THE BASIS
THAT THESE'TWO EXHIBITS SHOULD BE EXCLUDED BECAUSE THEY
ARE. SO PREJUDICIAL TH1T THE PRE.JUDICIAL EFFECT OUTWEIGHS
THEIR PROBATIVE VALUE AND THAT THEY CONSTITUTE HEARSAY.
NOW, ARE YOU OB.JECTING ON ANY OTHER BASIS
THAN THAT? AND IF SO, WHAT IS THE BASiS OF YOUR VOIR
DIRE?
a You AND
BOTH CARPETBAGGERS
MR . LEONAP.D:
volR DIRE, YOUR HONOR, IS TO
OTHER REASONABLE INFERENCES
THESE DOCUMENTS.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
WELL, THE BASIS OF THE
ESTABLISH THAT THERE ARE
WHICH CAN BE DRAWN FROM
I BELIEVE THAT IS A
T,
IN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PROPER MATTER FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION. BUT IF YOU HAVE
ANY BASIS FOR CHALLENGING THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE
EXHIBITS OR THIS MANIS FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE SO THAT THE
EXHIBITS OUGHT NOT TO BE ADMITTED ON THAT BASIS, WE WILL
HEAR YOU ON VOIR DIRE.
BUT TO THE EXTENT YOU WANT TO CHALLENGE THE
CONCLUSIONS HE DRAWS FROM IT, THAT IS A MATTER FOR
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. LEONARD:
DISAGREE WITH THE COURT. I
MAKE AN OFFER OF PROOF THAT
THE VOIR DIRE IS THAT THERE
ENCES WHICH CAN BE DRAWN---
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
NOT ONLY MAKE AN OFFER OF PROOF,
TIME YOU MAY OFFER INTO EVIDENCE
HAS THAT EFFECT
MR. LEONARD:
I WOULD RESPECTFULLY
WOULD LIKE TO AT THIS MOMENT
WHAT I INTENDED TO SHOW ON
ARE OTHER REASONABLE INFER-
(rureRposrNG) vou MAY
BUT WHEN IT COMES YOUR
ANYTHING THAT YOU THINK
WELL, AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
THE OFFER AT THE MOMENT IS OF 53(C) NUO 53(H). MY
OB.JECTION IS THAT THOSE DOCUMENTS PORTRAY, AT LEAST IN THE
MIND OF THIS WITNESS AND ARE ATTEMPTED TO BE PORTRAYED
BY THE PLAINTIFFS IN THIS CASE, A HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL
MATTER. MY POINT IS THAT THERE ARE REASONABLE INFERENCES
WHICH CAN BE DRAWN FROM THOSE DOCUMENTS OTHER THAN THOSE
SOUGHT TO BE DRAWN BY THIS WITNESS. AND THEY SHOULD NOT
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BE ACCEPTED BY THIS COURT BECAUSE THEY ARE HIGHLY
PRE.JUDICIAL.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THE OBJECT I ON ON THAT
BASIS IS OVERRULED.
MS. GUINIER: YOUR HONOR, DO I UNDER-
STAND THAT PLAINTI FFSI EXHI BITS 5](C) NNO (I-I) HAVE BEEN
RECEIVED?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THE EXHIBITS HAVE BEEN
RECEIVED II.J EVIDENCE.
(PUINTI FFS EXHI BIT NOS. 5](C)
AND 53(H) WTNE RECEIVED IN
EVIDENCE. )
" * t t',*utrril=f;r*' * o " o *
BY MS. GUINIER:
. A DR. LUEBKE, HAVE YOU COLLECTED DATA ON THE
SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS.OF BLACKS AND WHITES IN NORTH
CAROL I NA ?
A I HAVE.
A WHAT DATA HAVE YOU COLLECTED?
A I HAVE COLLECTED DATA BASED ON THE 19BO CENSU
I HAVE ALSO REVIEWED REPORTS COMPLETED BY GOVERNMENT
AGENCIES WITHIN NORTH CAROLINA.
A HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERI ZE THE DATA THAT YOU
HAVE COLLECTED?
F P. O.3ox 2,!143
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I T I S CENSUS DATA WHI CH SHOI.IS DI FFERENCES
IN SOCiOECONOMIC STATUS OF BLACKS AND I{HITES IN NORTH
CAROLINA ON A NUMBER OF MEASURES [.IHICH ARE USEFUL TO
POLITICAL SOCIOLOGI STS.
A IS THE ANALYSIS OF CENSUS DATA A TOOL THAT
POLITICAL SOCIOLOGISTS NORMALLY RELY ON?
A VERY DEFINITELY.
A WHAT IS THE PARTICULAR RELEVANCE OF CENSUS OR
OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC DATA?
A DEMOGRAPHIC DATA TELL US THE MAKEUP OF THE
POPULATION AND CAN TELL US IN PARTiCULAR THE SPECIFIC
CHARACTERISTICS OF A POPULATION WHICH ARE THE BASIS FOR
OUR UNDERSTANDING THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUSES OF GROUPS
WITHIN THE POPULATION--EITHER IVITHIN THE STATE OF NORTH
CAROLINA OR I^'iTHIN A PARTICULAR COUNTY.
. A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT
7O(A). DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT IN FRONT OF YOU?
(PUTNTIFFS EXHIBIT NO'. 7O(A)
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 7O(A)?
MS. GUINIER: YES, YOUR HONOR.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO WE HAVE COPIES OF THAT
MS. GUINIER:
THE WI TNESS:
COUNTY DATA
YES; YOU DO.
IT IS AT THE END OF THE
o
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PRECISION REPORTlNG
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BY MS. GUINIER:
A CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS EXHIBIT?
A YES.
A WHAT IS IT?
A THIS IS A TABLE PRESENTING CERTAIN MEASURES OF
DEMOGRAPHIC DIFFERENCES FOP. THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
AS A WHOLE BASED ON THE 19BO CEI'.ISUS.
A WHO PREPARED THIS TABLE?
A I DID.
A WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE FORMAT OF THE TABLE,
PLEASE ?
A YES. THE TABLE, I^'HEREVER POSS I BLE, SHOWS THE
FIGURES FOR THE ENTIRE NORTH CAROLINA POPULATION FOR A
NUMBER OF MEASURES AND THEN FOR THESE SAME MEASURES SHOI^IS
THE FIGURE FOR WHITE--THE I^/HITE POPULATION--AtlD FOR THE
BLACK POPULATION.
a AND THE nieUnrs FOR THE TOTAL POPULATION ARE
IN THE FAR RIGHT-HAND COL,UMlrl?
A THAT I S CORRECT--5,88 1,766 FOR 1980.
A WHAT OTHER MEASURES ARE SHOWN ON THIS CHART
GOING DOWN COLUMN BY COLUMN OR LINE BY LINE, DEPENDING
ON THE REFERENCE POINT?
A GOING DOWN LINE BY LINE, AFTER SHOWING THE
PERCENTAGE OF NORTH CAROLINIANS I^'HO ARE WHITE AND WHO AR
BLACK, I GET TO MEASURES WHICH ARE, NU},IBER ONE, THE
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION BELO!.\, POVERTY, IN WHICH THE
TABLE SHOWS THAT BLACK FAMILIES ARE THREE TIMES. AS
LIKELY--BLACKS ARE THREE TIMES AS LIKELY AS I/,HITES To
BE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
THE SECOND MEASURE LOOKS AT THE PERCENTAGE OF
FAMILY INCOME-_THE PERCENTAGE OF FAMILIES WITH INCOME
OVER $ZO,OOO. THERE IS ACTUALLY A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR
THERE. AND IT SHOWS THAT WHITE FAMILIES ARE TT^JICE AS
LIKELY AS BLACK FAMILIES TO HAVE FAMILY INCOMES OVER
$zo,ooo.
THE THIRD MEASURE IS MEAN INCOME. THE FOURTH
MEASURE SHOI{S THAT BLACK I NCOME I S 64. 9 PERCENT OF WH I TE
INCOME STATEWIDE. THE FIFTH MEASURE IS A MEASURE OF
RENTER_OCCUPIED VERSUS OWNER-OCCUPIED HOUSING. AND WE
SHOW HERE THAT BLACKS ARE ALMOST TWICE AS LIKELY AS
WHITES TO BE IN RENTER-OCCUPIED HOUSING.
THE NEXT MEASURE IS A }4EASUR,E OF ACCESS TO A
VEHICLE. WE FIND THAT BLACKS ARE APPROXIMATELY THREE
AND A HALF TIMES AS LIKELY AS WHITES TO LIVE IN HOUSEHOL
UNITS WITHOUT ACCESS TO A PRIVATE AUTOMOBILE. THE FINAL
MEASURE IS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION OVER 25 WITH
AN EIGHTH GRADE EDUCATION OR LESS. WE FIND THAT BLACKS
ARE ONE AND A HALF TIMES AS LIKELY AS WHITES.
AND IS THE PERCENT VOTING A TYPOGRAPHICAL
ERROR ON THIS TABLE--THE FINAL TALLY WHICH YOU DID NOT
F P. O. Eor 2tl6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DESCRI BE?
A YEAH. I DID I.IOT DESCRIBE THAT BECAUSE IT IS
I
NOT HERE IN FRONT OF ME. YES. SO IT IS AN ERROR--A
TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHAT IS THE TYPOGRAPHICAL
E RROR ?
}4S. GUINIER: ON MY COPY OF THE EXHIBIT,
YOUR HONOR, THERE IS A MEASURE IIPERCENT VOTING, '' WHICH IS
IN FACT NOT PART OF THIS TABLE.
.J UDGE BR I TT : IT IS NOT AI.,I ERROR. YOU
JUST PUT TOO MUCH INFORMATION ON THERE.
BY MS. GUIN I ER:
A DID YOU ALSO EXAMINE ANY DATA REGARDING THE
RELATIVE HEALTH OF THE BLACK POPULATION AND THE WHITE
POPULAT I ON?
, A YES.
a WHAT OnrA OrO YOU LOOK AT?
A I LOOKED AT THE.STIPULATIONS IN THIS CASE.
AND I FOUND THAT IN THE STIPULATIONS THAT ON A NUMBER OF
MEASURES CONCERNING INFANT MORTALITY, WHICH IS A STANDARD
HEALTH MEASURE USED BY SOCIOLOGISTS, THAT FOR THE COUNTIE
OF MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH, DURHAM, WAKE, WILSON, EDGECOMBE
AND NASH ON ALL MEASURES THE INFANT MORTALITY RATE IS
H IGHER FOR BLACKS THAN FOR I''HITES.
JUDGE DUPREE: IS THAT STIPULATED IN THE
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
RECORD?
MS. GUINIER:
JUDGE DUPREE:
MS. GUINIER:
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
YES, YOUR HONOR.
WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO
I WILL DO THAT RIGHT NOW.
ASK THE WITNESS }JHAT A STI PULATION IS? THAT I S BINDING
ON BOTH SIDES. ALSO, I AM CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR GOING
OVER AN EXHIBIT WHICH WE HAVE AND CAN SEE AND.JUST IN
INSPECTION APPEARS EXACTLY WHAT HE JUST TOLD THAT IT DOES
CONTAIN. I AM JUST WONDERING IN THE INTEREST OF TiME
WHY THAT IS NECESSARY.
MS. GUINIER: AS LONG AS THAT IS
oBVIOUS TO THE COURT, THERE IS NO NEED TO G0 OVER IT.
.JUDGE DUPREE: WELL, ANYTI ME YOU SHOW
ME SOMETHING IN FIGURES, I CAN SEE IT. I MAY NOT KNOW
WHAT IT MEANS. YOU CAN ASK HIM WHAT IT }4EANS IF YOU WANT
TO.
BY MS. GUINIER:
WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE STIPULATIONS
THAT YOU HAVE REVIEWED REGARDING THE HEALTH OF BLACKS AND
WHITES iN NORTH CAROLINA AS WELL AS THE DATA WHICH YOU
HAVE INCLUDED IN PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT 7O(A)?
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : SIGNIFICANCE IN RELATION
TO WHAT?
BY I4S. GUINIER:
F P. O. Eor 2tttl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THE SIGNIFICANCE IN RELATION
PATION OF BLACKS AND WHITES IN THE STATE
CAROL I NA ?
A THERE IS A TRUISM---
TO THE PARTICI
OF NORTH
( t NrrnPos I NG ) r'to; No .
wITNESS, IF YOU I'lILL. IT
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
.J UST ANSWER HER QUEST I ON, MR.
I^IILL GO ALONG MUCH BETTER.
THE WITNESS:
REPEAT THE QUESTION?
THANK YOU. COULD YOU
BY MS. GUINIER:
A YES. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE BETWEEN THE DAT
THAT YOU HAVE EXAMINED REGARDING THE DEMOGRAPHIC STATUS
OF BLACKS AND WHITES IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA AND
THE PARTICIPATION BY BLACKS AND WHITES IN THE POLITICAL
PROCESS IN THIS STATE?
ATHESIGNIFICANCEISTHATFoRALLTHESoclo_
ECONOMIC MEASURES WHlCH I HAVE REVIEWED, THE SOCIOECONOMI
STATUS OF BLACKS IS LOWER THAN THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS
OF WHITES.
A WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT TO THE
PARTICIPATION BY'BLACKS AND WHiTES IN THE POLITICAL
PROCESS IN NOR,TH CAROLINA?
ATHESIGNIFICANCEoFTHATISTHATAFUNDAMEN-
TAL FINDING OF POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY FOR THE UNITED STATES
I S THAT THE LOI^/ER ONE ' S SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS THE LESS
P. O.8or 2Eloil
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LIKELY ONE IS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT
7O(B) NNO ASK YOU TO IDENTiFY THAT.
(pIaINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 7O(B)
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFiCATIOtt. )
A YES.
A WHAT IS THAT?
A THIS IS THE REPORT OF TEST SCORES FOR THE
CALIFORNIA ACHIEVEMENT TEST REPORTED BY THE CHARLOTTE-
MECKLENBURG SCHOOL SYSTEM.
A DOES TH I S REPORT HAVE ANY S I GNI.FI CANCE TO THE
PARTiCIPATION OF BLACKS OR WHITES IN THE POLITICAL PROCES
IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES. IT SHOWS THAT THE TEST SCORES FOR BLACKS
AND WH I TES ARE D I FFERENT; THAT BLACKS ARE COI.'IS I STENTLY
LOWER THAN WHITES ON THESE TEST SCORES.
A WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT TO THE
PARTICIPATION BY BLACKS AND WHITES IN THE POLITICAL PRO-
CESS IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A EDUCATIONAL DIFFERENCES IS ONE OF THE SOCIO-
ECONOMIC STATUS MEASURES WHICH I/JE USE WITHIN POLITICAL
SOCIOLOGY. AND IT SERVES AS A RELATIONSHIP OR ESTABLISHE
A RELATIONSHIP: LOWER EDUCATIONAL LEVELS AND LOWER
EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENTS AND LOWER POLITICAL PARTICIPA'
TION(o
F P, O. Box 2lld
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A WHAT IS THE TIMEFRAME IN WHICH THESE
PARTICULAR SCORES WERE TAKEN IN PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 7O(B)
A THESE ARE SHOWING TEST SCORES BETWEEN L97B AN
I983 FOR }^JHITES AND BLACKS ON A NUMBER OF MEASURES.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO PLAINTIFFSI
EXHIBIT 7I AND ASK IF YOU HAVE REVIEWED THIS?
(pUaINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 71 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATIOtt. )
A YES. THIS IS A REPORT PREPARED WITHIN NORTH
CAROLINA STATE GOVERNMENT ON PATTERNS OF PAY.
A I S THI S THE TYPE OF REPORT THAT YOU AS A
POLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST WOULD NORMALLY RELY ON?
A YES--BECAUSE IT IS RELYING ON THE VARIABLE OF
OCCUPAT I ON--OCCUPAT I ONAL STATUS .
A HOW DOES THIS REPORT AFFECT YOUR OPINION
REGARDING THE LEVEL OF BLACK PARTICIPATION IN THE STATE
OF NORTH CAROLINA IN IHE ELECTORAL PROCESS?
MR. LEONARD: . IF THE COURT PLEASE, THE
DEFENSE IS GOING TO OBJECT TO THE USE OF PLAINTIFFSI
EXHIBIT 7I AND 72. IF THE COURT WILL LOOK AT EXHIBIT 7I,
THE DOCUMENT IS ENTITLED IIPATTERNS OF PAY IN NORTH
CAROLINA STATE GOVERNMENT.II
AT THE BOTTOM OF THE COVER PAGE, IT SAYS:
II...THIS STUDY AND REPORT WERE MADE POSSIBLE
BY A GRANT UNDER THE INTERGOVERNMENTAL
o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.457 t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PERSONNEL ACT, ',
AND G I VES THE NUMBERS . I DO NOT BEL I EVE THAT ANYWI-IERE I
THE DOCUMENT IS THERE AN IDENTIFICATION OF WHO PREPARED
THE REPORT. IT IS APPARENTLY BEING OFFERED, I GUESS,
UNDER THE BUSINESS RECORDS EXCEPTION BECAUSE IT I,/AS A
REPORT THAT WAS FURNISHED TO THE PLAINTIFFS BY THE STATE
BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO BE RESIDING IN A STATE PERSONNEL
FILE SOMEPLACE.
. BUT I,rE CANr T CROSS-EXAI'IINE THE DOCUMENT. VJE
DON'T KNOW ITS SOURCE. AND IT IS TOTAL AND COMPLETE
HEARSAY AI.ID NOT EVEN I DENT I F I ED .
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE
ADMISSIBILITY OF THIS? YOU HAVENIIT OFFERED IT IN EVI-
DENCE YET.
MS. GUINIER: AT THIS POINT I AM SIMPLY
ASKING THE WITNESS IF HE CAN DISCUSS THIS REPORT AND WHAT
EFFECT THIS REPORT HAS ON HIS CONCLUSIONS. I BELIEVE
UNDER 703 HE IS ENTITLED AS.AN EXPERT TO DO THAT.
IN RESPONSE TO THE SPECIFIC OBJECTION THAT MR.
LEONARD HAS RAISED TO THE POTENTIAL ADMISSIBILITY OF
THIS DOCUMENT, I WOULD ADVISE THE COURT THAT ON THE PRE-
TRIAL ORDER THE DEFENDANTS HAVE INDICATED AND STIPULATED
THAT THIS DOCUI.IENT IS AUTHENTIC AND WAS PRODUCED AT THE
REQUEST OF THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE GOVERNIMENT.
.JUDGE PH I L_L I PS : YOU MAY PROCEED.
F P. O. &r 2!tB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BY MS. GU]NIER:
A DO YOU REMEMBER MY LAST QUESTION, DR. LUEBKE?
A NO.
A LOOKING AT PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT 7I?
A YES.
A HAVE YOU REVIEWED THIS EXHIBIT?
A YES.
.aANDISTHISANEXHIBIToRADoCUMENTTHATYoU
AS A POLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST NORMALLY RELY ON?
A YES.
A WHAT DOES THIS DOCUMENT TELL YOU ABOUT THE
DEMOGRAPHIC STATUS OF BLACKS OR I^IHITES IN NORTH CAROLINA?
.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : THE DEMOGRAPH I C STATUS ?
MS. GUIN IER:
THE WI TNESS:
THAT I S CORRECT.
I T TELLS ME ABOUT THE
OCCUPATIONAL STATUS O.F WHITES AND BLACKS, MALES AND
FEMALES, IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
BY MS. GUINIER:.
A AND WHAT DOES I T TELL YOU?
AANDWHATITTELLSUSTHATTHEWHITEMALES
EN.JOY A HIGHER RATE OF RETURN FOR EDUCATION' YEARS OF
AGGREGATESERVICE,SUPERVISoRYPoSITIoNANDAGE--TltlAT
ISAQUoTEFRoMTHEREPoRT-.oVERTHEoTHERTHREESUB-
GROUPS.
aHo\.lDoEs--THISPARTICULARINFoRMATIoNAFFECT
P- o. gor 2tldl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE RELATIVE PARTICIPATION OF BLACKS
AND WHITES IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA POLITICAL
PROCESS?
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : couf,tsEL, MAY I MAKE
INQUIRY, IN OP.DER TO SAVE AGAINST ANY QUESTION OF THE
ADI.{ISSIBILITY OF THIS DOCUMENT OR T[.tIS TESTIMONy, IF yOU
CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE IN THE RECORD
REGARDING THE DIFFERENTIAL IN GENERAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONS
OF BLACKS AND WHITES IN THIS STATE DOES NOT SUFFICE FOR
THAT PURPOSE? I CANNOT MAKE THAT JUDGMENT FOR YOU. BUT
I MAKE INQUIRY.
MS. GUINIER:
PLEASE, YOUR HONOR?
(PAUSE. )
MAYIHAVEAMOMENT,
YOUR HONOR, IN THE INTEREST OF TIME AND IN
VIEW OF YOUR OBSERVATION ABOUT OTHER INFORMATION THAT IS
ALREADy IN THE *aaO*r, THIS pARTICULAR DOCUI.IENT, PLAIT'l-
TIFFS' EXHIBIT 7I, DOES HAVE INFORMATION THAT IS NOT
ALREADY IN THE RECORD. HOI',EVER, WE WILL t'lOT GO INTO
pLAINTIFFS' EXHIBITS 72, 73 AND 74 AT THIS TIME.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
THAT IS YOUR JUDGMENT AND IS
YOU THAT WE TAKE ANY VIEW OF
EVIDENCE YOU ALREADY HAVE.
MS. GUINIER:
FINE. NOW, UNDERSTAND
NOT BECAUSE I HAVE SAID TO
THE PROBATIVE FORCE OF THE
YES.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRlBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT SIMPLY WAS AN INQUIR
OF WHETHER ON YOUR OWN ASSESSMENT YOU MIGHT MAKE THE
JUDGMENT THAT YOU HAVE ENOUGH.
MS. GUINIER: YES. I UI..IDERSTAND THAT,
YOUR HONOR.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DID YOU ALSO ANALYZE THE DEMOGRAPHIC DATA FOR
COUNTIES WITHIN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES.
A HOW MANY COUNTIES HAVE YOU LOOKED AT?
A I LOOKED AT i5 COUNTIES.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTIO}.I TO PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBI
56 THROUGH PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 7O AND ASK IF YOU CAN
IDENTIFY THOSE?
(pIAINTIFFS EXHIBiT NOS. 56 THRO
7O WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
A THESE ARE 15 COUNTIES FOR WHICH I PREPARED
TABULAR DATA SIMILAR TO THE. TABULAR DATA PRESENTED IN
EXHIBIT 70(A) FOR THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.
A DID YOU FOLLOW THE SAME FORMAT FOR EACH ONE
OF THOSE COUNTIES?
A I DID
A I S THE SOURCE OF THE DATA THE SAME FOR EACH
ONE OF THOSE COUNTIES--THE CENSUS DATA?
A THE CEI'.ISUS DATA REGARD I NG SOC I OECONOM I C
'O
F P. O. Box 2llaB
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
VARIABLES FROI,I THE 19BO CENSUS ARE THE SAME FOR THE 15
COUNTIES It.I THE STATE.
A ARE THESE DOCUMENTS ACCURATE?
(r.to nrsporusr. )
A DID YOU POINT OUT SEVERAL TYPOGRAPHIC ERRORS?
A THERE WERE SEVERAL TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS HAVE
BEEN CORRECTED IN THE RECORD, THEY ARE ACCURATE.
a couLD you TDENTIFy'THOSE TyPOGRAPHTCAL ERRORS
FOR THE COURT?
A YES. I FOUND A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR IN EXHIBIT
59. THE PERCENTAGE OF VJHITE POPULATION BELOW POVERTY IN
WAKE COUNTY IS 6.2 PERCENT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WAIT A I4INUTE, NOw.
REPEAT THAT, DOCTOR, NOW. AND TELL US WHAT COLUMN.
THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. IN EXHIBIT 59,
DEMOGRAPHIC DATA FOR WAKE COUNTY, PERCENTAGE OF POPULA-
TION BELOW POVERTY, INCORRECTLY TYPED AS 62,2 PERCENT;
CoRRECTED, 6.2 PERCENT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RiGHT, SIR.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A ARE THERE ANY OTHER TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS?
DID YOU POINT OUT ONE ON PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT 63?
A YES. ON 63, THE LINE--EXHIBIT 6l FOR HALIFAX
COUNTY DEMOGRAPHIC DATA--THE LINE OF PERCENTAGE OF POPU-
LATION BELOW POVERTY WAS OMITTED FROM THE TABLE. IT
I
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sHouLD READ FOR t^/H I TES, t2.
PERCENT.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
THE WITNESS:
6 RrecrNr; FoR BLACKS , 47 . B
REPEAT THOSE FIGURES.
YES, SIR. 12.6 PERCENT
o
I
WHITE-+ERCENTAGE OF POpULATION BELOT^/ pOVERTy; 47.8
PERCENT--PERCENTAGE OF BLACK POPULATION BELOW POVERTY.
I MiGHT ALSO POINT OUT THAT THERE IS A MINUS SIGN IN
FRONT OF A RATIO. THAT IS MEANINGLESS. THE RATIO SHOUL
BE EXPRESSED AS A POSITIVE.
BY I,IS. GUINIER:
A WHAT GENERAL OPINIONS DO YOU HAVE ON THE BASIS
OF YOUR ANALYSIS OF THE DEMOGRAPHIC DATA FOR THESE 15
COUNTIES ON THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS OF BLACKS AND WHITES
IN THESE 15 COUNTIES?
A FOR EACH OF THE 15 COUI.ITIES FOR EACH OF THE
MEASURES, THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS OF BLACKS IS LOWER
THAN THE SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS OF WHITES.
DO YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC OPINIONS ABOUT ANY
OF THE COUNTIES IN PARTICULAR?
YES. I LOOKED AT THE PERCENTAGE OF POPULATIO
BELOW POVERTY FOR THE WHITE POPULATION AND THE BLACK
POPULATIOT.{. AND IN CARRYING OUT A RATIO OF BLACK TO
WHITE--THAT IS TO SAY, THIS IS A MEASURE OF INEQUALITY;
THE RATIO OF BLACKS IN POVERTY COMPARED TO THE PERCENTAG
oF \^tHITES IN POVERTY:-I FOUND THAT WHILE THIS RATIO t^'AS
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2ttB
lJ Rddeh, No(h C.rclil A?ctr
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ALWAYS HIGH IN
TO BE POOR THAN
l^/AS H IGHEST.
THE
WH
DIRECTION OF BLACKS BEING MORE LIKEL
I TES, I FOUND FOUR COUNT I ES I^,HERE I T
56 THROUGH 7U(B)'NRE
AND WE I/,,I LL RESERVE RUL ING
WHAT ARE THOSE FOUR COUNTIES?
THE FOUR HIGHEST COUNTIES AMONG THE 15 WERE--
IN ORDER OF HIGHEST OR IN TERMS OF HIGHEST RATIO--CHOI,JAN,
MECKLENBURG--EXCUSE ME--CHOWAN, NASH, MECKLENBURG, I./ILS
MS. GUINI ER: AT THIS TIME, YOUR HONOR,
PLAINTIFFS WOULD MOVE THE ADMISSION OF EXHIBITS 56 THRO
7t.
. MR. LEONARD:
YOUR HONOR.
WE OBJECT ONLY TO 7L,
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
ADMITTED I{ITHOUT OBJECTION.
ON 7I AT THIS TIME.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASES, WE
(pIaINTIFFS EXHiBIT NOS. 56 THROUG
7O(B) WTNE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MS. I.JINNER: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE
SUBPOENAED HAROLD WEBB, THE DIRECTOR OF THE STATE
DEPARTMENT OF PERSONNEL, WHO PRODUCED THE .DUCUMENT.
,JUDGE PHILLIPS: I SIMPLY HAVE NOT HAD A
CHANCE TO LOOK AT THE STIPULATION THAT IS SAID TO PROVID
THE REQUISITE FOUNDATION IN AUTHENTICITY? IS IT THERE?
I S THERE ANY OUESTIOI.I ABOUT IT?
P. O. Bor 2tl&
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PRECISIOI.I REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIB!NG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
HAVE STIPULATED TO THE AUTHENTICITY. THAT IS, THE
DOCUMENT CAME AND IS PART OF AN EXCERPT FROM A REPORT.
BUT THERE IS NO FOUNDATION HERE. THE DOCUMENT IS NOT
SUBJECT TO CROSS-EXAMINATION. IT WAS SIMPLY IN THE FILES
OF THE STATE THAT SOMEBODY SENT TO THE STATE. iT WAS IN
THE FILES.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, ON THE BASIS THAT
THERE IS A STIPULATION THAT IT IS AUTHENTICALLY WHAT IT
PURPORTS TO BE AND THAT IT COMES FROI4 THE OFFICIAL
RECORDS OF THE STATE, WE WILL ADMIT IT.
MS. WINNER: THANK YOU, YOUR HOr.lOR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THE OBJECTION IS
OVERRULED.
(pIaINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 7I WAS
RECEiVED IN EVIDENCE.)
MS. GUINIER: WE HAVE NO FURTHER
QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS AT THIS TIME.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS: . ALL RIGHT, MR. LEONARD.
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 9:55 A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DR. LUEBKE, WHAT IS YOUR TRAINING AND BACK-
GROUND IN ECONOMICS?
A I HAVE NO DEGREES IN ECONOMICS.
A OTHER TH{N DEGREES, DO YOU HAVE ANY TRAINING
F P. O. Box 2al6ll
LJ R.hroh, Nodh c.rorh. 276lr
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, MLEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN ECONOMICS? HAVE YOU EVER ATTENDED ANY CLASSES IN
ECONOMICS?
A YES.
A WHERE ?
A MY UNDERGRADUATE INSTITUTION.
q SO YOU DID HAVE SOME UNDERGRADUATE COURSES IN
ECONIOMICS?
A I THINK I ATTENDED--POSSIBLY I HAVE ATTENDED
SEMiNARS AT MY GRADUATE INSTITUTION.
A DO YOU HOLD YOURSELF OUT TO BE AN EXPERT IN
ECONOMICS?
A NO, S IR.
A YOUR UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE IS IN SOCIOLOGY?
A IN POLITICAL SCIENCE.
a I AM SORRY--POLITICAL SCTENCE. WHAT SPECIAL
TRAINING OR CONNECTION IS THERE BETI^JEEN YOUR DEGREE INI
POLITICAL SCIENCE AND YOUR SUBSPECIALTY IN POLITICAL
SOCIOLOGY? THAT IS, WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN
SOCIOLOGY AND POLITICAL SCIENCE?
A SOCIOLOGY AND POLITICAL SCIENCE ARE TWO DIS-
CIPLINES I^'ITHII.J THE SOCIAL SCIENCES WHICH EXAMINE SOCIETY
WITHIN SOCIOLOGY AND POLITICS I.'ITHIN POLiTICAL SCIENCE.
A DOES A CANDIDATE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE RUN ANY
RISKS POLITICALLY BY ASSOCIATING HIS CAMPAIGN WITH OTHER
PEOPLE VJHO ARE POLITICALLY WELL KNOWN?
a P. O. &x 2alB
LJ Rd.loh, Nonh c.rorrn. 2761I
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A PERHAPS.
A WELL, CNN YOU GIVE IJS ANI EXAMPLE
HAPS THAT CAN HAPPEN?
(PAUSE. )
OF WHEN PER-
A A CANDIDATE---
a (tNrreposING) vou aRE HAVING TRoUBLE WITH THE
QUESTION. LET ME ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.
THANK YOIJ.
WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHEN A CANDIDATE FOR
POLITICAL OFFICE IN ONE STATE ASKS SOMEONE FROM ANOTHER
STATE TO COME INTO THE HOME STATE OF THE CAI\IDIDATE TO
CAMPAIGN THAT IT IS A FAIR COMMENT BY THE CANDIDATEIS
POLITICAL OPPONENT TO POINT OUT THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY
OF THE PERSON COMING INTO THE HOME STATE TO CAI'IPAIGN FOR
THE CAND I DATE ? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT QUEST I OI'I?
t
YE S.
MS. GUINI ER:
THE llI TNESS :
YOUR HONOR_--
(ITrENPOSING) WNRT WAS
THE QUEST ION?
BY MR. LEONARD:
IS IT A FAIR COMMENT_-_
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
HAVE AI..I OBJECTION?
(TNTTRPOSING) OO YOU
MS. GUII.IIER: YES. I HAVE
ALTI-1OUGH IT IS NOT TO THE SPECIFIC QUESTION-
a
AN
I
OBJ ECT I O
WOULD
'o
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876 4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O. Aox 26163
L, f,.bigh. No,,h cf,,or,^e ,7i I I
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
JUST LIKE TO NOTE THAT THE BASIC RULE OF QUESTIONING A
WITNESS PROViDES THAT COUNSEL SHALL REMAIN SEATED I'/HI LE
QUESTIONING \^JITNESSES. AND I WOULD ASK THAT MP.. LEONARD
RESUME HIS SEAT.
L,UDGE DUPREE: THE PRACTICE IS THAT IF
PEOPLE COME FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS h'HERE THE--AND I
TH INK I T I S PROBABLY MORE UN I VERSALLY FOLLOWED I IIJ OTHER
JURISIDICTIONS--FOR COUNSEL TO STAND WHILE THEY ARE
EXAMINING THE WITNESS. THEN WE LET THEM, IN THE INTEREST
OF LETTING EVERYBODY FEEL AT HOME, STAND HERE IF THEY
CARE TO. IF YOU ARE JUST ASKING IN A SINGLE JUDGE
TTIIAL---
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTTnPOSING) I I^,AS
SIMPLY ASCRIBING TO THE CHIEF JUDGE OF THIS DiSTRICT,
WHOSE LOCAL RULE I WOULD BE REQUIRED TO ADMINISTER. AND
ON THAT BAS I S, WE W i LL S I MPLY FOLLOI,, THAT CUSTOMARY
PRACTI CE.
IN NORTH CAROLINA, THE TRADITION IN WHICH ALL
THREE OF US WERE RAISED AND IN WHICH WE ALL PRACTICED
LAW, I THINK THE RULE AROSE THAT COUNSEL SAT BEHIND THE
TABLE BECAUSE WE HAD A PARTICULARLY ROBUST ATTITUDE
TOWARD THE LICENSE THAT COUNSEL ENJOYED IN ALL MATTERS.
AND IT WAS PROBABLY FELT SAFE TO KEEP THEM BEHIND THE
BENCHES AND SEATED. BUT GENTLER PEOPLE FROI'4 OTHER
CLII.4ES DON I T PRESENT THAT PROBLEM. SO YOU MAY STAND, MR.
H P. O.6ox 2tlB
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PRECISlON REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LEONARD, I F YOU CARE TO DO THAT.
MR. LEONARD: THAUK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
I HAVE IN ALL THE JURISDICTIONS I HAVE PRACTiCE D IN FOUI,I
THAT COUNSEL WERE REQUIRED TO STAND.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE ARE VERY UNIQUE IN
THAT WAY.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DR. LUEBKE, DO YOU RECALL THE QUESTION?
A NO, SIR. COULD YOU REPEAT IT?
A THE QUESTiON, TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION,
WAS UNDER THE HYPOTHETICAL I GAVE YOU WHETHER OR NOT IT
WOULD BE FAIR COMMENT FOR THE CANDIDATEIS OPPONENT TO
COMMENT UPON THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF THE PERSON
COMING IN FROM OUT OF STATE?
A YES.
A NOW, IF INDEED THAT CANDIDATE CHOSE TO HAVE
HIS PICTURE TAKEN WIIH THE VISITOR FROM OUT OF STATE AND
THE PRESS CARRIED IT, WOULP IT BE A FAIR COMMENT FOR HIS
OPPONENT To SUGGEST THAT, "NoT' oNLY DOES MY OPPONENT
ESPOUSE AND AGREE WITH THIS STRANGERIS POLITICAL PHILOSO
PHY, BUT HERE HE IS RUBBING SHOULDERS WITH HIMII? IS THAT
A FA I P. POL I T I CAL COMMENT ?
A YES--IF I CAN ELABORATE ON THAT.
A WELL, IT IS FAIR POLITICAL COMMENT; ISNIT IT?
IS THERE ANY EQUIVOCATION ABOUT THAT?'o
F P. O. Bor 2alB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IT IS FAIR POLITICAL COMMENT.
A IS IT ALSO TRUE, DR. LUEBKE, THAT WHAT MAY BE
A RACIAL APPEAL IN THE MIND OF ONE PERSON IS A LEGITIMATE
POLITICAL COMMENT IN THE MIND OF ANOTHER?
A NO.
a ALL RiGHT. DO yOU KNOW OF ANy BLACK pEOpLE
V'/HO OPPOSE BUSING OF SCHOOL CHILDREN IN CASES WHERE IT IS
NECESSARY TO DESEGREGATE A SCHOOL SYSTEM?
A I HAVE READ SURVEY RESEARCH WHICH SHOWS SOME
BLACK OPPOSITION TO THE SCHOOL BUSING.
A IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY, DR. LUEBKE, THAT YOU
DON I T KNOW OF ANY--YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A BLACK PERSON
WHO OBJECTS TO BUSING OF SCHOOL CHILDREN?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE HIS ANSWER WAS
THAT HE DID HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF SUCH AN ATTITUDE.
MR. LEONARD: WELL, NOW, I F THE COURT
PLEASE, HiS ANSWER VJAS HE HAS READ SURVEY RESEARCH. I
AM ASKING I/{HETHER HE KNOWS Of ANY BLACK PERSON WHO
OPPOSES THE BUSING OF SCHOOL CHILDREN?
THE WI TNESS : WHEN i READ SURVEY
RESEARCH, I KNOI^/ BLACK PEOPLE-_THEN I KNOW THAT BLACK
PEOPLE DO OPPOSE BUSING. THAT IS FOR I'lE KNOWLEDGE VJITHIN
MY AREA OF EXPERTISE.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A SO THERE I SN I T ANY DOUBT IN YOUR I4IND THAT
F P. O. gor 28la
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THE BUSING OF SCHOOL
CH I LDREN ?
A YES; YES.
A IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY, DR. LUEBKE, THAT TWO
PEOPLE LOOKING AT A POLITICAL AD WHICH OPPOSES THE BUSIN
oF scHool cHILDREN--THAT No pERSoN couLD DRA'^/ A REASoN-
ABLE INFERENCE THAT THAT IS NOT A RACIAL APPEAL?
A I HAVE TESTIFIED ABOUT RACIAL APPEAL IN THE
CONTEXT OF THE DEFINITION WHICH I USE IN MY WORK. AND
YOUR QUESTION IS TOO VAGUE FOR ME BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE
ANY EXAMPLES TO COMMENT AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IT IS A
RACIAL APPEAL.
A YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT YOU USED QUANTITATIVE
METHODOLOGIES IN YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE?
UH-HUH.
TELL THE COURT WHAT QUANTITATIVE METHODOLOGIE
YOU USED IN COMING TO YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THE
RACIAL APPEALS IN THE VARIOUS CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU HAVE
TESTIFIED TO?
A THE RACIAL APPEALS I,IHICH I HAVE TESTIFIED
ABOUT ARE BASED ON CASE STUDY ANALYSIS. THOSE ARE NOT
QUANTiTATIVE STUDIES.
HAVE YOU INTERVIEVJED SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS TO
DETERMINE THE IMPACT OF THE CLAIMED RACIAL APPEAL IN
THOSE ELECTI ONS ?
-
F P. O. Box 2ale
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3519 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I IIAVE NOT R EL I ED ON MY I NTE RV I EWS I^/ I TH
ANYONE TO DRAW MY CONCLUSIONS CONCERNING SPECIFIC DOCU-
MENTS WHICH I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING.
a so THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION IS rNoil"
A YES--YES, NO.
a YES, THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION I S rr['Jo'r; I S
THAT CORRECT?
A I WILL BE 1OO PERCENT SURE IF YOU REPEAT THAT
QUESTION. THEN i WILL TRY TO GIVE YOU THAT STRAiGHT
IIYES-NO'I THAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR.
A DR. LUEBKE, IS THE ANSWER TO THE OUESTION I
PROPOUNDED TO YOU IIYESII OR IINO'I?
A BUT I DONI T REMEMBER THAT QUESTION TO WHICH
YOU WANT A IIYES-NOII ANSWER.
A WELL, VI EI^/I NG THE STATE OF THE RECORD, I WI LL
LEAVE THAT QUESTION WHERE IT IS.
(PAUSE. )
DR. LUEBKE, IS IT FAIR POLITICAL COMMENT FOR
ONE CANDIDATE RUNNiNG FOR A PUBLIC OFFICE TO LAY OUT IN
POLITICAL AD HIS BACKGROUND AND POLITICAL EXPERIENCE
VERSUS HIS OPPONENTIS?
A YES.
A AND IF HE COMPARES THE PUBLIC SERVICE OF THE
TWO CANDIDATES, IS THAT FAIR COMMENT?
A YES.
F P. O. Box 2816:,
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o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A AI.JD I F HE COMPARES PAST LEGISLATIVE SERVICE
WITH HIS OPPONENT, IS THAT FAIR COMI.IENT?
A YES.
A AND MILITARY SERVICE?
A YES.
A IS IT FAIR COMI.,IENT FOR A CANDIDATE TO STATE
HIS POSITION ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT?
A YES.
a AS OpposED TO HIS OPPONENTtS pOSITION?
A YES.
A IS IT FAIR COMMENT FOR A CANDIDATE TO STATE
HIS POSITION ON FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY?
A YES.
A THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT THE VOTERS ARE USUALLY
INTERESTED IN; ISNI T IT?
A YES.
a AND rS rr rnrn CoMMENT To GIVE SO[4E PERSONAL
BACKGROUND--THE FACT THAT THE CANDIDATES ARE MARRIED OR
NOT MARRIED AND HOW MANY CHILDREN THEY HAVE?
A YES.
A IN FACT, DR. LUEBKE, ISNIT THAT WHAT ALMOST
EVERYBODY WHO RUNS FOR PUBLIC OFFICE DOES?
A WHAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED SO FAR_-YES.
A EVEN IN CHICAGO THEY DO THAT; DONIT THEY?
(No RESPONSE. )
F P. O. Bor 2ala
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCHIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A ISNIT IT ALSO TRUE THAT CANDIDATES WILL MAKE
AN APPEAL TO VOTERS T() GO TO THE POLLS AND VOTE?
A IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO EXHIBIT 44_-_
a (rrurERposrNG) No. I At4 ASKTNG yOU___
JUDGE BRI TT:
QUESTI ON, MR. WI TNESS.
(trurrnPosING) arusr,lrR THE
THE WI TNESS : IT I S USUAL, YES, To I4AKE
AN APPEAL TO GO TO THE POLLS.
(PAUSE. )
BY MR. LEOI,IARD :
A IS IT USUAL IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, DR. LUEBKE,
FOR POLITICALLY ACTIVE PEOPLE TO GET TOGETHER AND FORM
SLATES OF CANDIDATES, PARTICULARLY FOR LOCAL OFFICES
SUCH AS SCHOOL BOARDS AND COUNTY BOARDS AND CITY COUNCILS
THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES?
A DID YOU ASK IF IT HAPPENS OR IS IT COMMON OR--
a (rNrERposrN;) rs rT A coMMor.J pRACrrcE?
A IT HAPPENS. I T HAPPENS.
A IT HAPPENS? ALL RIGHT. YOU WOULD DISAGREE
OVER THE TERM IICOMMONII? BUT IT HAPPENS?
A IT CERTAINLY HAPPENS.
A AND IT HAPPENS IN PLACES NATIONU/IDE; DOES IT
NOT ?
A YES.
1 IS T!-iAT A FAIR CAMpAiGN pOLITICAL PRACTICE?
F P. O. Bor 2t163
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YES.
a Do THOSE ORGAN|IT AT I O['JS OR GROUPS OR.DI NAR I Ly
PUT OUT A PIECE OF LITERATURE IN WHICH THEY CARRY THE
PICTURES AND SOME INFORMATION ABOUT THE SLATE THEY ARE
S UPPORT I NG ?
A YES. IT IS COMMON.
A AND IS THERE ANYTHING IN EXHIBIT 51, WHICH IS
THE AD IN DURHAI.4 COUNTY FOR THE COUNTY BOARD OF CO}4MIS-
SIoNERS OF THE MAy 6, 1980, ELECTION, OTHER THAN THE
PICTURES OF THE FIVE CANDIDATES THAT YOU FOUND TO BE
RACIALLY TELEGRAPHING OR RACIAL TELEGRAPHING?
A YES.
A WHAT ELSE?
A BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AS A POLITICAL
SOCIOLOGIST REFERRING TO--_
a (rrurrRposrNG) wr KNow WHAT YouR EXPERIENCE I
JUST TELL ME WHAT ELSE IN THE AD IS A R,ACIAL TELEGRAPH
OTHER THAN THE PICTURES OF.THE CANDIDATES, PLEASE.
A YE S. IIVOTE FOR CONT I NUED PROGRESS I N DURHAM
COUNTY'I HAD''MEANING IN THE CONTEXT OF 1970-1980 POLITICAL
CONTEXT OF DURHAM COUI.JTY.
A WERE ANY OF THESE CANDIDATES INCUMBENTS?
A YES.
A IS IT NOT LIKELY THAT A CANDIDATE FOR PUBLIC
OFFICE SEEKING RE-ELECTION WOULD USE THE TERMINOLOGY
F P.-O- Bor 2Etd
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IICOI.JT I NUE YOUR PROGRESS BY SUPPORT I NG ME'I ?
A IN DURHAI1 COUNTY, THE APPEARANCE OF THIS AD
ot'J MAY 4, 1990, IS NO ACCIDENT.
A DR. LUEBKE, I ASK YOU: IS IT NOT USUAL IN
POLITICS FOR AN INCUMBENT SEEKING RE-ELECTIOII TO USE
TERMINOLOGY ASKING THE ELECTORATE TO SUPPORT HIM FOR
CONT INUED PROGRESS ?
A YE S. THE WORD IIPROGRESSII CAI'I BE USED.
a Now, Do You KNow wHo BILL BELL IS?
A YES.
a b/Ho rs HE?
A HE IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
IN DURHAM COUNTY.
a THE CHATRMAN OF THE COUNTY BOARD OF CO|4MIS-
SIONERS IN DURHAM COUI.lTY?
A YES.
A AND WHEN \,/AS HE ELECTED LAST?
A HE WAS LAST ELF-CTED IN 1982.
A AND V'HEN IdAS HE ELECTED BEFOR.E THAT?
A I BELIEVE I'4R. BELL l^/AS FIRST ELECTED IN 1972.
a t^lAS HE ELECTED IN THE ELECTION OF 1980?
A HE l/AS.
a Do You KNor^l E LEANOR S PAU LD I NG ?
A YES, SIR.
a IS SlrE A MEMBER OF THE COUNTY BOARD OF
F P. O. gor 2t18
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COMMISSIONERS OF DURIJAM COUNTY? \
A SHE TS.
A I.,AS SHI: ELECTED OR RE-ELECTED IN THE ELECTION
IN 19BO?
A SHE I^/AS.
a IS IT CORRECT/ DOCTOR LUEBKE, Tl-tAT IN THE
ELECTION II'I WHICH THIS AD WAS USED AS ONE OF THE TOOLS
FOR THI S SLATE TI.1AT THERE WERE TWO BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED
TO THE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS IN DURHAI'1 COUNTY?
'o
'a OUT SO THE
A
S I ONERS
a
HAVE AT
A
a
YE S.
JUDGE BR I TT:
THE WI TNESS:
.JUDGE 8R I TT :
REPORTER CAN GET
THE WI TNESS :
BY MR. LEONARD:
WHAT IS YOUR, AI'JSUJER?
YES.
YOU HAVE GOT TO SPEAK
IT DO\VN, t,lR. WITNESS.
I AM SORRY, SIR--YES.
MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
t
a IJOI,'/, HOW DOES ONE GO ABOUT GETTING ELECTED
CHAIRMAI.I OF THE COUNITY BOARD IN DURHAM COUNTY?
IT IS A VOTE OF THE FIVE INCUMBENT COMMIS_
WHEI.I THEY CONVENE THE NEI^I COUNTY COMI'IISSION.
SO I F THERE IS A CONTEST, THE T,IINNER HAS TO
LEAST THREE VOTES; IS THAT RIGHT?
THAT IS RIGHT.
AND IF I4R. BELL ]S THE CHAIRI4AN OF THE COUNTY
THREE VOTES TO BECOMEBOARD, HE HAD TO HAVE AT LEAST
PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
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CHAIRMAN; CoRRt(
A THAT
MOMENT ?
YOUR HONOR.
A ZERO.
MR. LEONARD:
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
MS. I,/I NNER:
(PAUSE. )
MS. GUIt.IIER:
TI-IAT IS ALL I HAVE.
IS THERE ANY REDIRECT?
MAY WE HAVE .JUST A
I DO HAVE soME QUE ST I OI\lS,
l- 'j
IS (,0RRFCT.
(o
A NOW, WHAT IS THE MATIIEMATICAL POSSIRILITY THAT
HE COULD I.1AVE BEEN ELECTED CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNTY BOAP.D
OF DURHAM COUNTY W 1 THOUT I''H I TE SUPPORT ?
A WHICH QUESTION ARE YOU ASKING, SIR-_CONCEP.NING
THE ELECTION OR CONCERNING HIS ELECTION OF COUI'ITY
COMMISSION--TO THE CHAIR OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION?
THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE VOTES. OT.IE I S A VOTE OF THE
COUNTY CCMMISSION. ONE IS A VOTE OF THE PEOPLE.
A WHAT IS THE I'4ATHEMATICAL POSSIBILITY, DR.
LUEBKE, THAT MR. BILL BELL COULD HAVE BEEN ELECTED
CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNTY BOAP.D OF SUPERVISORS IN DURHAI4
COUNTY WITHOUT WHITE SUPPORT iN THE ELECTION FOR
CHAIRMAN?
t
REDI RECT E X A M T N A T I O N 10:16
PRECISIOI.I REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, IIIC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP O. 8ox 28le
L.l R.l.loh. Nodh Crrot,o. z jol l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFFtCt, RAt EtcH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BY MS. GUI\IER:
A PROFESSOR LUEBKE, COULD YOU TURN TO PLAINTIFF
EXHIBIT 4I+?
A YEs.
A WHAT WAS UNUSUAL ABOUT THIS AD, IN YOUR
OPINiON?
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : WELL, NOI{, COUNSEL, YOU
HAVE BEEN THROUGH THAT THOROUGHLY ON DIRECT EXAMINATION.
MS. GUINIER:
QUESTI0N, YOUR HONOR.
I WILL REPHRASE THE
BY I"1S. GUINIER:
A IS IT USUAL FOR A CANDIDATE TO PUT A PICTURE
OF HIS OPPONENT IN HIS OWN POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENT?
A IT IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL. IT REPRESENTS FREE
PUBLICITY UNDER . NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
. A NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION BACK TO PLAIN-
TIFFS' EXHIBIT 5L?
A YES.
A WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFiCANCE IN YOUR OPINION TO
THE USE OF THE WORD 'IPROGRESSII IN THAT POLITICAL ADVER.
TISEMENT?
A ]ICONTINUED PROGRESS'' IS A STATEMENT IN THE
CONTEXT OF THE NOVEMBER 1979 CITY COUNCIL ELECTION IN
WHICH AN ALL.WHITE SLATE WAS ELECTED TO THE DURHAM CITY
COUNCIL. THE TEP.M ''PROGRESS'' WAS USED CONSISTENTLY IN
F t, O. lbr lrlta
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,rb
PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOeNtX, ARtZOi.lA
THAT CAMPAIGN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE--THE CITY COUNCIL
CAMPAIGN. AND IICONTINUED PROGRESSII IS A REFERENCE TO
THAT SUCCESS--THAT ELECTORAL SUCCESS BY THAT ALL-WHITE
SLATE.
MS. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUESTIONS.
MR. LEONARD: I HAVE NO QUESTTONS.
.,UDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. MR. WITNESS,
YOU MAY STEP DOWN. AND PLAINTIFFS MAY CALL THE NEXT
WITNESS. AND LETIS SEE IF WE CAN BEGiN TO MOVE WITH A
LITTLE MORE EXPEDITION.
(wT rNrss EXCUSED. )
MS. GUINIER:
PHYLLIS LYNCH.
THE PLAINTIFFS CALL
(wHrREUPot'1 ,
,. PHYLL I S D. LYNCH
\^,AS CALLED AS A WrrUeSS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:20 A.M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD?
A PHYLLIS D. LYNCH.
A WHAT I S YOUR ADDRESS, MS. LYNCH?
A 609 BALDW*IN AVENUE; CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA.
F t. O. Dor 2alao
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
719.3619 876-4571
PHOENTX, ARrZOr.lA
A I BELIEVE YOU HAVE AN EXHIBIT, PLAINTIFFSI
EXHrBrr 4(A), ON THE EASEL IN FRoNT OF YOU. CAN YoU SEE
I T CLEARLY?
A YES.
M5. GUINIER: MAY THE WITNESS APPROACH
THE EXHIBIT, PLEASE, YOUR HONOR?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YES. THE WITNESS MAY
APPROACH THE EXHIBIT.
BY MS. GUINIER:
a Do You RECOGNIZE THIS?
I DO.
A WHAT IS IT?
AITISANoUTLINEoFCHARLoTTEANDMECKLENBURG
COUNTY.
aCoUL.DYoUPoINToUTWHEREYoULIVEoNTHISMAP
AND IDENTIFY iT BY PRECINCT?
AILIVETNTTTTCENTERCITYPRECINCTNUMBER2.
a oKAY. YOU MAY -BE SEATED. THANK YOU' WHAT
IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THAT PRECINCT?
A THE PRECINCT IS PREDOMINANTLY WHITE.
aI./HATISTHERACIALCoMPoSITioNoFYoURIMME.
DIATE NEiGHBORHOOD?
ATHEIMMEDIATENEIGHBoRHooDTHATILIVEINIS
PREDOMINANTLY BLACK, IDENTIFtr'ED AS THE CHERRY COMMUNITY
i N PREC INCT NUMBER_2.'o 25
a P. O.8d 2tlGl
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HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?
I HAVE LIVED IN CHARLOTTE ALL }4Y LIFE--36
YEARS.
HOW ARE YOU EMPLOYED?
I AM EMPLOYED AS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
CHARLOTTE-MECK.LENBURG YOUTH COUNCIL, I,JHICH I S A NONPROFIT
YOUTH AGENCY DEALING WITH YOUNG PEOPLE IN EDUCATION AND
TRAINING AREAS.
ARE YOU INVOLVED IN ELECTORAL POLITICS IN
CHARLOTTE-ME CKLENBURG ?
I AM.
IN WHAT CAPACITY?
A I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY BOARD
OF ELECTIONS. AND I ALSO SERVE AS A MEMBER OF THE BLACK
POLITICAL CAUCUS AND BELONG TO THE CAUCUST ISSUES AND
CANDIDATES COMMITTEE.
a
A
a
a
POLITICS?
YOU REGISTERED?
A
STITUTION
HAD TO READ PART
ORDER TO QUAL I FY
THE NORTH CAROLINA CON-
VOTE.
MAIN OFFICI, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI{oENIX, ARIZONA
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ELECTORAL
I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED APPROXIMATELY 1B YEARS.
WHEN DID YOU FIRST REGISTER TO VOTE?
WHEN I I.JAS-.IN 1968
DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE ANY PARTICULAR TEST WHEN
OF
TO
I
IN
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.90S5
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a
POLITICS?
I./HY DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN ELECTORAL
I LIVED IN A PREDOMINANTLY LOW INCOME AREA AND
WORK WITH LOW INCOME PEOPLE, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE, AND
FOUND THAT THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT NOT HAVING THE
THINGS THAT I,IERE NEEDED IN ORDER TO SURVIVE IN TERMS OF
FAIR, DECENT HOUSiNG, EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNI-
TIES. THE ONLY WAY TO INFLUENCE THAT WAS TO INFLUENCE
THOSE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE LAT'IS AND SET THE POLICIES.
YOU SAID THAT YOU SERVED ON THE ISSUES AND
CANDIDATES COMMITTEE OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS?
I HAVE.
I,JOULD YOU DESCRI BE THAT COMMITTEE?
THAT COMMITTEE IS THE PART OF THE CAUCUS WHICH
TRIES TO IDENTIFY BLACKS I^/HO ARE INTERESTED IN RUNNING
FOR ELECTIVE OFFICE, GETTING THEM INVOLVED IN THE ELEC-
TORAL PROCESS. IT ALSO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR INTERVIEWING
WHITE CANDIDATES WHO WE FEEL CAN RELATE TO THE ISSUES OF
THE BLACK COMMUNITY, TRY TO ESTABLISH SLATES AND GET
THOSE PEOPLE ELECTED ALSO.
HOW LONG HAS THE ISSUES AND CANDIDATES
COMMITTEE OF THE BLACK POLiTICAL CAUCUS BEEN IN EXISTEN
APPROXIMATELY 20 YEARS.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU SERVED
10 TO 12 YEARS.
ON THAT COMMITTEE?
AI
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A MEMBER OF THE BLACK
POLITICAL CAUCUS ISSUES AND CANDIDATES COI'4MITTEE, I^'HAT
HAS BEEN THE T4OST SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN GETTING BLACKS
ELECTED TO POLITICAL OFFICE IN 14ECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A
a
A
VOTE.
a
COUNTY.- I N
COUNTY VOTE
A
a
CANDIDATES?
GETTING OUT THE BLACK VOTE.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
BLACKS CANTT GET ELECTED WITHOUT HAVING BLACK
IN YOUR EXPERIENCE ARE WHITES IN MECKLENBURG
YOUR EXPERIENCE DO WHITES IN MECKLENBURG
FOR BLACK CANDIDATES IN LARGE NUMBERS?
THEY DO NOT VOTE FOR BLACKS IN LARGE NUI'IBERS.
IN WHAT PROPORTION DO THEY VOTE FOR BLACK
,A THE MERE FACT THAT MY EXPERIENCE WOULD SHOW,
THEY TEND TO VOTE IN LOWER NUMBERS BECAUSE I^JE ARE NOT
ABLE TO GET BLACK CANDIDATES ELECTED ON THE SAME PROPOR-
TION THAT THEY RUN FOR VARIPUS OFFICES. SO I WOULD SAY
THAT I^IHITES TEND TO VOTE ON A LOW--MEDIUM TO LOW
PERcENTAGE.
A NOW, HAVE YOU ENCOUNTERED ANY PROBLEMS AS A
MEMBER OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS OR IN YOUR INVOLVE-
MENT IN ELECTORAL POLITICS IN GETTING OUT THE BLACK VOTE?
A YES.
A WHAT ARE THOSE PROBLEMS?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
P|{OEN|X, AR|Zoi.IA
A TRADITIONALLY, THE BLACK COMI"IUNITY HAS'NOT
BEEN ENCOURAGED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.
MANY PEOPLE STILL FEEL THAT LITERACY TEST, POLL TAX--
THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN REMOVED.-ARE STILL IN EXISTENCE.
AND IT IS A VERY SLOW PROCESS TO TRY TO EDUCATE PEOPLE
THAT THERE NEED NOT BE A FEAR OF USING THE VOTING MACHINE
OR GOING DOI,/N TO VOTE.
WE ENCOUNTER AS I,JE GO TO TALK TO INDIVIDUALS
IN VARIOUS PLACES ABOUT REGISTRATION THAT OLDER PEOPLE
TEND TO FEEL THAT THEY HAD IN PRIOR YEARS BEEN TOLD BY
THE WHITES THAT THEY WOR,}( FOR THAT THERE WAS REALLY NO
NEED TO TAKE AN ACTIVE INVOLVEMENT IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT;
THAT THEY VJOULD TAKE CARE OF THAT FOR THEM; ANYTHING
THEY NEEDED, TO CONTACT THEM.
MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT IF THE HUSBAND IS
REGISTERED TO VOTE, THE WIFE DOES NOT NEED TO REGISTER
TO VOTE; AND THAT THETN CHILDREN SHOULD STAY IN THEIR
PLACE AND NOT TRY TO CAUSE.ANY TROUBLE. AND THERE HAS
BEEN RESISTANCE BY BLACKS TO VOTE BECAUSE THEY FELT
THREATENED iN SOME DEGREE.
a WHEN YOU SAY "THREATENEDTTt WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
A WELL, YOU I,IEREN t T ENCOURAGED TO PART I C I PATE.
AND TO SOME PEOPLE IT IS LOOKED AT THAT IF YOU GO OUT AN
TRY TO GET PEOPLE ELECTED TO OFFICE, THAT THEY ARE NOT
GOING TO RESPOND TO_YOU ANYWAY IF THEY ARE T'IHITE; AND IF
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, NAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157'l
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
THEY ARE BLACK, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GOING TO HAVE
CONFORMED TO THE DEGREE ITI.{AT THEY DON'T RELATE TO YOU
ANYWAY.
YOU SAID THAT A LOW TO MEDIUI.4.NUMBER OF WHITES
WOULD VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE. WHAT FOLLO}.JING DOES A
BLACK CANDIDATE NEED TO GET THOSE WHITE SUPPORTERS?
A THE ISSUES AND CANDIDATES COMMITTEE HAS LOOKE
AT THiS VERY CLOSELY BECAUSE EVERYONE LOOKS FOR SUCCESS.
SUCCESS IN POLITICS IS VIEI.,ED AS ACTUALLY A VICTORY IN
GETTiNG PEOPLE ELECTED. SO IN LOOKING AT THIS AND
INQUIRING, WE HAVE FOUND THAT WHITES TEND TO WANT BLACKS
TO BE THE PROFESSIONS, HIGH ECHELON, HAVE HIGH VISIBTLITY
AND THAT IS VERY DIFFiCULT TO ACqUIRE.
BLACKS HAVE NOT BEEN IN TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP
ROLES IN THE COMMUNITY. SO WE HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNI
TO DEMONSTRATE OUR ABILITY TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF LEADER-
SHIP THAT PEOPLE FEEL.'NO' THEY WANT TO VOTE FOR A
PERSON FOR.
HAS THE I SSUES AND CAND I DATES COMI4I TTEE--,OR A
A MEMBER OF THE ISSUES AND CANDIDATES COMMITTEE, HAVE YO
HAD ANY EXPERIENCE THAT GIVES YOU A BASIS FOR AN OPINION
ON WHETHER BLACKS HAVE TO RUN FOR OTHER OFFICES IN ORDER
TO GET ELECTED TO A STATE LEVEL OFFICE?
A AS I STATED, I^JE ARE LOOKING AT TRYING TO
SUCCEED AND HAVE VICTORY. T.'E ENCOURAGE INDIVI DUALS TO
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
RUN. AND THE HISTORY OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY WILL SHOW
THAT THE PRIMARY FIRST OFFICES THAT BLACKS SOUGHT WERE AT
THE SCHOOL BOARD LEVEL, THINKING THAT BECAUSE WE HAD
CHILDREN IN SCHOOL AT THAT TIME, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS
SEPARATE BUT EQUAL JURISDICTION OVER THAT ACCORDING TO
THE LAI.J, THAT AT LEAST WE WOULD BE ABLE TO CONVINCE
PEOPLE THAT }'IE HAD A GENUINE INTEREST IN THIS. AND THE
FEAR OF POI{ER BEING PUT IN THE HANDS OF BLACKS WOULD BE
LESS AT THE SCHOOL BOARD POSITION.
SO AS EARLY--BEFORE 1964; BUT CERTAINLY FROM
19,64 TO THIS POINT, BLACKS GENERALLY TRY TO GET IN THE
SCHOOL BOARD RACE IN ORDER TO BE IDENTIFIED IN THE
COMMUN I TY AS A. PERSOI.I WHO COULD PROVIDE LEADERSHI P, COULD
WIN ELECTIVE OFFICE.
IT WASNIT UNTIL LATER IN 1970-SOME THAT A
BLACK WAS ELECTED TO THE SCHOOL BOARD AFTER NUI4EROUS
ATTEMPTS. FROI,I THAT POINT I.IE WERE ABLE THEN TO ENCOURAGE
OTHER BLACKS FROM THAT VICTORY TO TRY TO GET INVOLVED IN
THE PRoCESS. SO i GUESS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTToN IS
YES. YOU DO HAVE TO RUNI FOR MORE THAN ONE OFFICE IN
ORDER TO ATTAIN A POSITION.
A CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A PARTICULAR
CANDiDATE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY WHO WAS EVENTUALLY
SUCCESSFUL AT THE HOUSE OR,SENATE LEVEL?
A BILL BERRY SERVED ON THE SCHOOL BOARD FOR TEN
'(D
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YEARS AND I.JAS SUCCESS}-UL AT WINI'IING A HOUSE SEAT. BOB
WALTON RAN UNSUCCESSFULLY FOR THE CITY COUNCIL AND THEN
RAN FOR THE COUNTY COMMISSION. FRED ALEXANDER RAN FOR
THE CITY COUNCIL AND WON AND THEN RAN FOR THE SENATE AND
LOST AND RAN AGAIN AND WON. SO THEY HAVE EACH HAD TO
RUN FOR VARIOUS OFFICES.
A IN YOUR OPINION, HOW MANY TIMES DOES A BLACK
CANDIDATE HAVE TO RUN BEFORE THEY ARE ELECTED?
A UNLESS IT IS A VERY UNUSUAL CIRCUMSTANCE OR A
PERSON WHO HAS BEEN EXTREMELY VISIBLE AND SUCCESSFUL IN
SOIE CAPACITY, GENERALLY AT LEAST TWO TIMES.
A IS THIS ALSO TRUE OF A WHITE CANDIDATE WHO IS
RUNNING FOR THE STATE HOUSE OR STATE SENATE?
A NO. THERE HAVE BEEN WHITE CANDIDATES WHO HAVE
AT THEIR FIRST,*, BEEI! ABLE TO MAKE IT THAT I,IOULD HAVE
HAD T,AIRLY EQUAL CREDENTIALS TO BLACKS WHO HAVE TRIED AT
THE SAME TiME.
A HAVE THOSE BLACKS. WITH THE SAME CREDENTIALS
WON ?
A NO. THEY HAVE NOT WON.
A HOW, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IS A BLACK CANDIDATE
RECEIVED IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY?
A VERY SELDOM.
A WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A }.JELL, I MEAN THAT THE OPPORTUNITY--THE CITY O
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CHARLOTTE, A5 CAN BE SEEN BY THE EXHIBIT THAT YOU HAD
ME POINT TO ORiGINALLY, SHOWS THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY
IS STILL ISOLATED. WE ARE A PROGRESSIVE CITY WORKiNG
TOWARD TRYING TO IMPROVE THAT. BUT AT THIS TIME, HOWEVE
WE STILL HAVE APPROXIMATELY 9O-PLUS PERCENT OF THE BLACK
COMMUNITY RESIDING ON THE WEST SIDE OF TOWT.J.
SO IT IS VERY DIFFICULT IF YOU LIVE ON ONE
sIDE OF TOWN, GO TO A BLACK CHURCH, SOCIALIZE AT A BLACK
CLUB, TO BE INVITED OVER TO THE WHITE SIDE OF TOWN WHERE
THE WHITE CHURCH IS, THE WHITE CLUBS, ET CETERA; SO THAT
IT IS VERY SELDOM.
A ARE THERE ANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT A BLACK
CANDIDATE HAS IN GETTING EXPOSURE IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY?
A YES. THE MERE FACT THAT, AS I MENTIONED A
MINUTE AGO, WE ARE STILL SOMEWHAT A.-THE MERE FACT THAT
I C.AN SIT HERE AND SAY THAT THERE IS A WHITE SIDE OF TOWI'I
AND A BLACK SIDE OF TOWN SHOI,IS THAT THERE ARE SOME
PROBLEMS THAT ARE RELATED SPECIFICALLY TO RACE.
THEREFORE, INDIVIDUALS I^'HO ARE BLACK AND WHO
ARE S.EEKING EXPOSURE TO GET ELECTED HAVE TO TRY TO FIGURE
OUT HOI^J TO GET INVITED TO VARiOUS AFFAIRS. IN THE WHITE
COMMUNIT'/, HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOI', THEY CAN CONVINCE THE
T.'HITE CONSTITUENT THAT THEY ARE INDEED CAPABLE OF
PROVIDING LEADERSHIP.
GENERALLYJ THERE ARE I.IO BLACKS THAT I KNOW OF
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICt, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 076.1571
PHOEN|X, ARIZONA
WHO HAVE HEADED UNI]'ED WAY CAMPAIGN DRIVES, AIRPORT
BONDS OR THINGS OF THIS NATURE THAT VIOUT-D GIVE THEM THE
EXPOSURE THAT THE WHITE COMMUNITY NORMALLY LOOKS AT FROM
THE STANDPOINT OF LEADERSHIP. MOST WHITES WHO ARE RUNNI
FOR OFFICE HAVE BEEN HEADS OF DIFFERENT COMMITTEES OR
HAVE VERY ACTIVE ROLES IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS, DEMOI.{-
STR.ATING THEREFORE TO THE COMMUNITY THAT THEY HAVE THE
ABILITY TO SIT ON THESE ELECTIVE BODIES, MAKE DECISIONS
AND GOVERN AFFAIRS.
IT IS DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT
WHEN THEY HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THE SAME
POSITIONS IN THE COI4MUNITY.
IS THERE ANY PROBLEM IN TERMS OF RAISING
MONEY ?
A THERE WILL BE TREMENDOUS PROBLEMS WITH RAISING
MONEY. THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WHEN WE COUNSEL
BLACKS FROM THE CAUCU;' COMMITTEE THAT WE EMPHASIZE--THAT
IT V(ILL TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY AND TIME AND A
COMMITMENT ON THE CANDIDATEIS PART-.THE PROSPECTIVE
CANDIDATEIS PART-.TO MAKE SEVERAL SACRIFICES AND MORE
THAN LIKELY CONTRIBUTING MONEY ON THEIR OWN.
IS THE PROBLEM LIMITED TO.JUST RAISING MONEY?
NO. NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE TO RAISE MONEY, BUT
YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THE WISEST WAY TO EXPEND THA'T
MONEY FROI4 THE STANDPOINT OF USING EFFECTIVE PUBLICITY
I
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-A571
PHOENIX, ANIZONA
o
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ABOUT YOUR CANDIDACY AND BEING ABLE TO GET OUT
RESPECTIVE COMMUNITY WITH YOUR CONCERNS.
A CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT
TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
WAY TO SPEND THE MONEY?
INTO THE
YOU ARE
THE WISEST
AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE THAT IN DR. BERTHA MAX-
WELL' S CAMPAiGI.,I, SHE WAS RUNTIING FOR THE FIRST FEMALE--
BLACK FEMALE--TO RUN FOR THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE HOUSE
OF REPRESENTATIVES. IN THE FORMULATION OF HER STRATEGY
THE IDEA WAS TO USE HER AS A TEST CASE TO SEE WHETHER OR
NOT WE COULD BRING TOGETHER WHAT WAS VIEWED AS VERY
SUCCESSFUL IN ANYBODY'S CAMPAIGN--IN TALKING WITH WHITE
PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRI'4S, IdHAT WOULD SHE NEED TO REMOVE
THESE BARRI ERS.
WE SOUGHT HER TO RUN. SHE HAD EXPERIENCE
r,Roll TnC STANDPOINT OF BEING VISIBLE IN THE COMMUNITY,
HAVING WORKED WITH THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, HAVING BEEN A
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY'OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHARL
HAVING THE T ITLE OF I'DOCTORI' TO HELP LEGITIMI ZE HER
CREDENTIALS.
WE RAISED WITH HER ASSISTANCE WELL OVER
$2O,OOO THAT WAS USED PRIMARILY TO PURCHASE LARGE BILL-
BOARDS TO BE PUT IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY, THE DOWNTOI{N
COMMUNITY; TO BUY RADIO AND NEWSPAPER ADVERTISEMENTSi TO
PRESENT HER AS A FILST-CLASS CANDIDATE.25
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a AND WHAT WAS THE oUTCOME OF DR. MAXWELL'S---
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: (TNTCRPOSING) TET'S TAKE
A RECESS AT THIS TIME.
(rnr pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT 10:15 A.M., To
RECONVENE AT 10:50 A.M., THIS SAME OaV.)
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
o
MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76..571
PI,OENIX, ARIZONA
-
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F U P. T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:55 A.
.JUDGE PHI LL i PS : COUNSEL, BE FORE YOU
COMMENCE, IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT WITH THE MATTER OF THE
LOCAL RULE RAISED AND WAIVED IN THE CASE OF OT..IE COUNSEL
FROM OUT OF THE REGIOI\I, IF YOU WOULD PREFER AND HAVE THAT
CUSTOM IN YOUR REGION YOU ARE PERFECTLY FREE ALSO TO
CONDUCT YOUR EXAMINATION STANDING. YOU T,IAY DO AS YOU
WISH.
.JUDGE DUPREE: I.,E WANT YOU TO FEEL AT
HOIE, TOO.
MS. GUINIER:
(I.IHEREUPON,
THANK'YOU, YOUR HONOR.
PHYLLIS D. LYNCH
THE WITNESS ON THE STAI.ID AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AI.ID TESTI FIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:55 A.M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A MS. LYNCH, I BELIEVE PRIOR TO THE RECESS WE
I^/ERE DI SCUSS ING TI.IE CANDIDACY OF DR. BERTHA MAXWELL; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a WHAT \,tAS THE OUTCoME OF DR. MAXWELLTS CANDI-
DACY ?
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZOfi.IAFf l. O. lor ,il6s
lJ F.Llgtr Xonh ctDltil 2t0ti
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DR. MAXWELL WAS VICTORIOUS IN THE PRIMARY
AND DEFEATED IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.
A WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?
A 1980;-I AM SORRy--THIS pAST ELECTION, WHICH
wAS 1982 OR 1981, WHENEVER THE LAST GENERAL ELECTION.
THIS IS 198t. SO IT I,TOULD pROBABLY BE IN 1981, I GUESS.
A WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN GETTING WHITE
POLITICIANS TO SUPPORT THE CANDIDACY OF A BLACK?
A IT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT OVER THE YEARS IN TRYING
TO GET WHITE POLiTICIANS TO SUPPORT BLACK CANDiDATES
. A INI YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE ISSUES AND CANDI-
DATES COMMITTEE, DO YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR FUNCTION?
A YES. I HELP TO INVITE WHITE CANDIDATES IN AND
SET UP APPOINTMENTS FOR THEM TO SPEAK WITH THE ENTIRE
BODY.
. A WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN ATTEMPTING TO
FORGE COALITIONS WITFI WHITE POLITICIANS?
A THE COALITIONS IIAVE NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL,
BECAUSE A NUMBER OF BLACKS THAT WE HAVE TRIED TO RUN HA
NOT IJON.
A WHY HAVE THE BLACKS THAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO
ELECT NOT WON?
A THEY DID NOT GET WHITE VOTES.
A ARE THERE ANY OTHER FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTE
TO THE DIFFiCULTY IN GETTING BLACKS ELECTED TO OFFICE IN
A P. O. Bor AlCl
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFFtCt, RAt E|GH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
MECKLENBURG COUNTY IN ADDITION TO THOSE THAT YOU
MENT I ONED ?
A THE BIGGEST FACTOR IS GETTING EXPOSURE AND
CONV I NC I NG THE I^IH I TE VOTER THAT THERE I S NOTH I NG TO FEAR
FROM HAVING BLACKS SERVE IN ELECTIVE OFFICE.
IS THERE AI.JY DI FFICULTY IN CREATING A POOL OF
AVAILABLE OR WILLING CANDIDATES?
A THERE IS AN AWFUL LOT OF DIFFICULTY BECAUSE,
AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, SUCCESS IS THE FACTOR THROUGH
WHICH YOU CAN GET PEOPLE ENCOURAGED TO RUN. WHEN BLACK
CANDIDATES--WHEN WE ARE UNABLE TO POINT OUT TO BLACK
CANDIDATES A I.JUMBER OF VICTORIES, THEN THEY DONIT WANT TO
NECESSARILY TAKE THE TIME.
IT IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE, NUMBER ONE, YOU HAVE
TO IDENTIFY A BLACK WHO CAN FINANCIALLY GO TO SERVE IN
THESE RESPECTIVE OFFICES. BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC
SITUATIONS, MANY BLACKS ARE NOT IN POSITIONS--THEY ARE
NOT IN .JOBS THAT THEY CAN B5 RELEASED FROM THOSE JOBS IN
ORDER TO SERVE.
BECAUSE THE POSITIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA AS A
WHOLE PAY REALLY .JUST EXPENSES AND A VERY SMALL AMOUNT O
MONEY rO THOSE PEOPLE WHO SERVE, YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE
FAIRLY WELL OFF TO OFFER YOURSELF AS A CANDIDATE. MANY
BLACKS, NOT BEING IN THAT SITUATION--WE HAVE TO FIGURE
OUT A WAY THAT THEY CAN BE RELEASED FROM THE POSITIONS'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ilArN OFF|CE, RAtEtcH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI-OENIX, ARIZONA
THEY HOLD AND CAN FII{ANCIALLY SUBSIDIZE THEIR II!COME.
WE ALSO HAVE TO, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD THE
EXPERIENCE OF RUNNING DIFFERENT CAMPAIGNS, GET PEOPLE IN
THAT CAN HELP THEM FROM THAT STANDPOINT.
WHAT ABOUT ENCOURAGING PEOPLE WHO HAVE SOUGHT
OFFICE AI.ID HAVE BEEN DEFEATED?
A VJELL, AFTER YOU HAVE RUN TWO OR THREE TIMES
AND HAVE NOT I^'ON, YOU SORT OF LOSE YOUR DESIRE TO SERVE.
A DO YOU HAVE ANY PARTICULAR EXAMPLES THAT YOU
CAN POINT TO?
DR. BERTHA MAXWELL WILL NOT RUN AGAIN. JIM
ROSS, WHO WAS A CANDIDATE FOR THE HOUSE, WILL NOT RUN
AGAiN. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE
INDiCATED THAT THEY WOULD NOT RUN FOR THOSE REASONS; OR
IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO WIN HAVE GONE TO THEIR
HEA}/ENLY FATHER
A NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THEY HAVE INDICATED THAT
THEY WOULD NOT RUN FOR THOSE REASONS, I^/HAT REASOI',IS ARE
YOU REFERRING TO?
THE DIFFICULTY IN ATTRACTING THE WHITE VOTE;
THE DIFFICULTY IN RAISII'IG MONEY; THE DIFFICULTY IN
PROJECTiNG YOURSELF TO BE THE TYPE OF INDIVIDUAL THAT IS
ACCEPTABLE, REGARDLESS OF THE CREDENTIALS THAT YOU HAVE
AND THE STATUS THAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO FORM; GETTING OUT
THE BLACK VOTE IS A_TREMENDOUS EFFORT=-GETTING PEOPLE T
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1s71
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
REGI STER TO VOTE AND THEN FOLLOW UP WITH THAT AND
ACTUALLY VOTE.
A NO'd, ARE THESE FACTORS OR DI FFI CULTI ES THAT
YOU MENTIONED THE SAME FOR STATE RACES AS THEY ARE FOR
CITY AND COUNTY RACES?
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I
HAVE NOT OBJECTED TO THIS WITNESS TESTIFYING TO WHAT HER
PERCEPTiONS ARE ABOUT MECKLENBURG COUNTY. 5HE HAS LIVED
THERE. HER TESTIMONY IS SHE HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THE
POLITiCAL PROCESS FOR SOME 1B YEARS.
,
BUT I THINK IF SHE IS GOING TO BE ASKED ABOUT
HER OPINION STATEWIDE, EITHER SHE OUGHT TO BE PROPERLY
QUALIFIED OR COUNSEL OUGHT TO AT LEAST LAY A FOUNDATION
AS TO I,/HAT HER INVOLVEMENT HAS BEEN IN STATEWIDE POLITIC
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : I UNDERSTOOD THE OUESTI
AND,, I 1^TILL NOT STATE IT AS A QUESTION. BUT I UNDERSTOOD
IT, IN RESPONDING TO YOUR OBJECTIOT$ TO BE IF THE DIFFI-
CULTY THAT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED WITH RESPECT TO LOCAL
CANDIDACiES OF tsLACKS IN MECKLENBURG EXTENDED AS WELL TO
THEIR CANDIDATES FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE.
YOUR HONOR, I WI LL
CLARIFY
BOTH OF
MS. GUINIER:
THE QUESTION.
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
US.
M5. GUINIER:
WELL, YOU CLARIFY IT FOR
OKAY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. IAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI,IOENIX. ARIZONA
BY MS. GUINIER:
ARE THESE DIFFICULTIES THAT YOU DESCRIBE FOR
BLACKS RUNNING FOR CITY AND COUNTY RACES THE SAME AS FOR
BLACKS RUNNING FOR THE STATE HOUSE OR THE STATE SENATE?
IT APPEARS THAT IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO GET
BLACKS ELECTED AT THE STATE HOUSE AND SENATE LEVEL THAN
IT IS TO GET THEM ELECTED AT THE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD, CITY
COUNCIL AND COUNTY COMI4ISSION LEVEL.
WHY IS THAT?
FI RST OF ALL, I T I S A COUNTYWI DE OR DI STRI CT-
WIDE ELECTION. IF YOU ARE RUNNING FOR THE STATE SENATE,
YOU MUST NOT ONLY CAPTURE THE VOTES IN MECKLENBURG
couNTY, BUT YOU THEN MUST GO INTO ANOTHER COUNTY TO
CAPTURE--THAT SENATORIAL DISTRICT IS DIVIDED.
I F YOU RUN FOR THE STATE HOUSE, THEN YOU MUST
NOT.,ONLY WIN THE CITY--YOU HAVE TO WIN THE CITY AND THE
COUNTY VOTES. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE IN DR. MAXWELLTS CASE,
SHE WON ENOUGH VOTES IN THE CITY' SHE LOST BY SOME 2'OOA
VOTES IN THE COUNTY BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT THE
WAY THE COUNTY IS LAID OUT. AS YOU CAN SEE, IT IS RATHER
DENSELY POPULATED. SO A PERSON WHO MUST GO OUT IN THOSE
AREAS MUST EITHER HAVE WHITE CONTACTS--WHICH THE POPUUA-
TION IS A LARGER WHITE POPULATION THAN IS CONCENTRATED
IN THE CITY.
SO YOU MUST HAVE CONTACTS OUT IN THOSE AREAS.
I
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PFIOENIX, ARIZONA
AND THE RURAL POPULATION AND THEIR ATTITUDES TEND TO
BE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN THE URBAN AREA.
G I VEN THESE PROBLEMS, I,'HAT MUST THE BLACK
COMMUNITY DO TO ELECT A CANDIDATE TO REPRESENT THEIR
INTEREST AT THE STATE HOUSE AND STATE SEI..IATE LEVEL?
THEY HAVE GOT TO GET MORE BLACK VOTES TO HELP
COUNTERACT THE FACT THAT THEY CAN'T GET WHITE VOTES.
IN YOUR OPINION, IT IS IMPORTANT TO ELECT A
BLACK PERSON TO REPRESENT THE BLACK COMMUNITY?
I THINK IT IS.
WHY IS THAT?
A FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THAT IT HELPS FROM THE
STANDPOI I.IT OF MAK I NG PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY HAVE GOT
REPRESENTATION. SOMEOI.IE THERE I S GOII',lG TO UNDERSTAND
THEIR, ISSUES AND RELATE BACK TO IT.
. T.JHEN YOU LOOK AT A STATE RACE WITH THE CANDI-
DATES GOII\IG TO RALE,.,,, COMING BACK ONLY ON THE WEEKEND,
A PERSON--A CONSTITUENT--NOT LIVING IN THE WHITE
COMMUNITY MAY NEVER SEE THEIR ELECTED OFFICIAL. A PERSON
LIVING iN THE BLACT. COMI"IUNITY WOULD HAVE TO COME BACK TO
THE BLACK COMMUNITY. AND THEREFORE, THE LIKELIHOOD OF
THEM BEING ABLE TO RELATE TO THE CONCERNS OF THE PEOPLE
AND BEiNG ABLE TO EVEN GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM IS GOING TO
BE GREATER.
I^JE L IVE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY APPROXIMATELY
A
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PF|oENIX, ARIZONA
THREE HOURS FROM RALEIGH. SO THE LIKELIHOOD OF BLACKS
BEING ABLE TO GO DOWN TO RALEIGH DURING THE COURSE OF
THE LEG I S LATURE I S VERY TH I }'I .
NOW, LOOKING AGAIN AT PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT--I
BELEIVE IT IS '+(A)-_CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE AREA IN WHICH
MOST OF THE WHITE ELECTED OFFICIALS LIVE IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY? IF YOU WANT TO APPROACH THE MAP IF YOU CANIT
READ IT--_
.,UDGE PHILLIPS:
SENTATIVES ARE YOU ASKING HER
MS. GUINIER:
BY MS. GUINIER:
(turrcposrNG) wnar REPRE
TO LOCATE?
THE STATE HOUSE.
JUST GIVE THE NAME OF THE AREA.
A THE MAJORITY OF THE DELEGATION, ALL WHITE,
WOULD TEND TO LIVE IN THE SOUTHEAST SECTION OF THE CITY
OF C,HARLOTTE, KNOWN AS THE SILK STOCKING OR MYERS PARK
AREA.
A AND WHILE YOU ARE STANDING THERE, COULD YOU
ALSO LOOK AT THE BOTTOM MAP, I,'HICH IS EXHIBIT 9(A) FOR
THE STATE SENATE FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A AND IDENTIFY THE AREAS IN WHiCH THEY LIVE?
a THAT IS CoRRECT.
A THEY WOULD TEND TO LIVE IN THE..ACCORDING TO
THIS MAP, MOST OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS WOULD BE SERVING IN
OR LIVING IN TIIE I,.'HITE COMMUNITY AND ON THE SOUTHEASTERN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,vlAlN OFFICE, RAIE|GH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
sIDE, EXCEpT ONE WHO OBVIOUST-y--pROBABLy CRAIG LAWING--
WHO LIVES UP IN THE COUNTY, FALL CREEK AREA.
A DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER BLACKS
WOULD HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT A REPRESENTATIVE
OF THEIR CHOICE IF THE DISTRICTS WERE SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS OR AS THEY PRESENTLY EXIST IN MULTI-MEMBER
DiSTRICTS? DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?
A IN LOOKING AT THE MAP, IT WOULD APPEAR THAT
BLACKS WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE IF THEY HAD SINGLE.
MEMBER DI STRI C-TS.
A WHY IS THAT
A IT WOULD BE CONFINED TO A CERTAIN GEOGRAPHIC
AREA, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE MAP INDiCATES THAT IT WOULD
BE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK AREAS OR OVER 50 PERCENT OR 65
PERCENT BLACK. THEY COULD THEN GET THE BLACK VOTE AND
WOU.LD BE ELECTED
A DO YOU THINK, IN YOUR OPINION, THAT AT THIS
TIME BLACKS HAVE AN EQUAL QPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES
OF THEIR CHOICE TO THE STATE HOUSE AND THE STATE SENATE
FROM MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A NO.
MS. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUES-
TIONS AT THIS TIME, YOUR HONOR.
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : MR. LEONARD?
(co ro rHE NEXT pnee. )
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.t571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 11:OB A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MS. LYNCH, AS CHAIRMAN OF THE--WHAT IS IT--THE
ISSUES AND CANDIDATES COMMITTEE OF THE POLITICAL BLACK
CAUCUS FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A NO. I SERVE AS A MEMBER OF THAT COMMITTEE.
I AM NOT THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMITTEE.
A DO YOU FROM TIME TO TIME CALL THE MECKLENBURG
LEGISLATIVE DELEGATION TO MEETINGS IN CHARLOTTE ON THE
I.JEEKEI.IDS OR WHEN THE LEGI SLATURE I S NOT I N SESS I ON?
A I HAVE HAD OCCASION TO DO THAT. YES.
A DO YOU KNOW REPRESENTATIVE LOUISE BRENNAN?
A I DO.
a Do You KNolv WHAT HER PHONE NUI4BER IS?
, A I CAN FIND IT, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU MEAN.
a How ABOUT rr-re REST OF THE DELEGATION? DID YOU
HAVE ANY TROUBLE FINDING THE.IR PHONE NUMBERS?
A NO. AS CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS, WE
PUT OUT A LIST THAT HAS ALL THOSE PHONE NUI'IBERS ON IT.
SO I COULD FIND IT.
A SO YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY GETTING IN
TOUCH WITH THESE I4EMBERS OF THE HOUSE?
A IT IS MY ROLE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM. SO
I DON'T HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
A DOES THE POLITICAL BLACK CAUCUS OF MECKLEN-
BURG COUNTY HAVE ANY PROBLEM GETTING IN TOUCH WITH THESE
LEGI SLATORS?
A FROM THE STANDPOINT OF KNOV'ING THE PHONE
NUMBERS AND BEING ABLE TO CALL THEM--NO.
A HAVE THEY RESPONDED
COME TO MEETINGS OF THE BLACK
MS. WINNER:
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
THE WITNESS:
G.ET THEM TO THE DEGREE THAT WE
WE HAVE HAD SOME WHO ARE MORE
YES.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
WHEN YOU ASKED THEM TO
POLITICAL CAUCUS?
WE OB.JECT TO---
(TrurrBposING) OVERRULED.
WE HAVE NOT BEEI..I ABLE TO
WOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE.
RESPONSIVE THAN OTHERS.
WELL, WHY DoN I T YOU STAT
BY MR. LEONARD:
q HAS REPRESENTATIVE BRENNAN BEEN RESPONSIVE?
.. A YES.
A TELL US, IN YOUR OPINION, OF THE EIGHT MEMBERS
CURRENTLY SERVING FROM THE. MECKLENBURG DELEGATION WHO.
YOU FEEL HAS BEEN RESPONSIVE TO THE BLACK POLITICAL
CAUCUS ?
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE HAVE
A STANDING OB.JECTION TO THE RELEVANCY OF QUESTIONS ON
RESPONSIVENESS SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP INTERRUPTI
THE TESTIMONY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
^
AtN OFF|CE, RA|_E|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PXOENIX, ARIZONA
THE BASIS? DO YOU TAI(E THE POSITION THAT THERE IS NO
RELEVANCE TO ISSUES OF RESPONSIVENESS BECAUSE THERE IS A
FOOTNOTE IN THE REPORT THAT SAYS THAT UNRESPONSIVENESS
IS SOUGHT TO BE PROVEN AND RESPONSIVENESS CAN BE SHOWN
IN REBUTTAL? IS THAT THE BASIS OF YOUR OBJECTION?
MS . t^,I NNER : THAT IS THE GENERAL BASI
OF THE OPINION. i THINK THE SENIATE REPORT MAKES CLEAR
THAT IT IS THE OB.JECTIVE RATHER THAN THE MORE SUB.JECTIVE
FACTORS OF RESPONSIVENESS THAT ARE BEING CONSIDERED; AND
THAT ONLY I F THE PI.AINTI FF I S ATTEMPTING TO PROVE UN-
RESPONSIVENESS MAY THE DEFENDANT REBUT BY PP.OVING
RESPONSI VENESS.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: WE WILL OVERRULE THE
OB.J ECT I ON ON THAT BAS I S --THAT I S, THE OB.J ECT I VE THAT THE
EVIDENCE OF RESPONSIVENESS IS NOT RELEVANT, THERE BEING
NO EVIDENCE IN THE CASE OF UNRESPONSIVENESS FROM THE
PLAINTIFFSI SIDE. THAT OB.JECTION IS OVERRULED AND ON A
CONTINUING BASIS,
MS. VJINNER:
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
THANK YOU.
ALSO, THIS IS CROSS-
EXAMINATION. AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE LINE OF DIRECT
EXAMINATION WHICH INQUIRED VER,Y SPECIFICALLY IN MATTERS
OF ACCESS TO REPRESENTATIVES HAS OPENED THIS MATTER FOR
CROSS-EXAMINATION IRRESPECTIVE OF RESPONSIVENESS AND
UNRESPONSIVENESS. YO_U MAY PROCEED.
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BY I4R . LE f NARD :
a so'/ou FIND NO DIFFICULTY--I AM SORRY. I
FORGOT THE QUEST i ON. OF THE E I GHT MEI'1BERS OF TllE MECK-
LENBURG HOUSE DELEGATIOI'I, TELL US THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE NO
DiFFICULTY MAKING CONTACT WITH. MS. LYI''ICH, WHEN I SAY
''YOU,'I I }4EAN NOT ONILY YOU BECAUSE OF YOIJR POSITION AS
CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS, BUT THE BLACK POLITI-
CAL CAUCUS AND THOSE COMMITTEES WHICH INVOLVE THEMSELVES
I.'ITH STATE LEGISLATIVE MATTERS.
THEBLACKREPRESENTATIVEPHILBERR.Yv{oULDBE
THE MOST RF.SPONSIVE IN THAT HE ATTENDS THE BL'ACK POLITI-
CAL CAUCUS MEETINGS AND ON A REGULAR BASIS UPDATES US
ONLEGISLATiOI,IT:.IATHEFEELSISR.ELEVANTTOTHENEEDSOF
THE BLACK COMMUNITY OR ISSUES THAT HE FEELS THAT HE WOULD
LIKE SOI.,IE IT..iPUT FROI''I US A5 TO WHAT OUR POSITION WOULD BE'
,aEXCUSEME.LETMEINTERRUPTFoR.JUSToNE
|'IoMENT.WEWILLHAVEYoUGooNINJUSTAMINUTE.BUT
INHISRoLEASAI.IEI4BERoFTI.IECAUCUS,DoESREPRESENTA-
T IV: BERRY SERVE AS A LIAISON BETI'IEEN THE BLACK POLITICAL
CAUCUS AND THE MECKLENBURG DELEGATION?
NOT IN Al.'I OFFICIAL CAPACiTY. I AM SUR'E THAT
BE ABLE TO,--IF ASKED, I GI.JESS, BY THE DELEGA-
SO. BUT \.JE HAVE NOT ASKED HIM TO DO SO'
\,JELL, DOES HE EVER INDICATE TO YOU AT YOUR
THAT HE DISCUSSES THES= ISSUES ON THE AGENDA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A^AIN OFFIG, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-4571
Pl-roENtx, ARtzoNA
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PRECISION FEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OF YOUR COMMITTEE WITH OTHER MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION?\
A I WOULD--I CAN REMEMBER A COUPLE OF INCIDENTS
THAT I HAVE HEARD HIM SAY THAT--I THINK THEY HAVE DELEGA-
TION MEETINGS. AND I WOULD ASSUME THAT IN SOME OF THOSE
MEETINGS HE HAS INDICATED CONCERNS.
A TELL US WHAT OTHER MEMBERS OF THE DELEGATION
ARE AVAI LABLE TO YOU WHEN YOU LOOK FOR THEM OR SEEK THEM
OUT.
A IN TERMS OF TRYING TO WRITE THEM, I GUESS THEY
WOULD ALL BE EQUAL BEYOND HIS LEVEL, BECAUSE GENERALLY IF
WE DO NOT CALL THEM WE DON'T HEAR FROM THEM.
A WHEN YOU CALL THEM, DO THEY RESPOND TO YOUR
REQUE ST S ?
A FROM THE STANDPOINT OF BEING COURTECUS AND
TAKING A TELEPHONE MESSAGE..YES; FROM THE STANDPOINT OF
NECESSARILY VOTING IN.THE MANNER IN WHICH WE HAVE
REQUESTED-*THAT COULD BE DEBATABLE. AND IN FAIRNESS, WE
WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT EACH.PARTICULAR ISSUE THAT WE HAVE
ASKED THEM TO CONSIDER.
A DOES THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY POLITICAL CAUCUS
KEEP A ROLL CALL OF THE EIGHT HOUSE MEMBERS DURING A
SESSION TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY VOTE FOR OR AGAINST THE
INTERESTS OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS FROM THE COUNTY?
A NOT AN OFFICIAL TALLY. WE HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE
THAT SERVE AS-.I GULSS YOU WOULD CALL IT MONITORS. AND
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PRECISION HEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THEY HAVE THE INFORM,CTION. THIS INFORMATION IS THEN
BROUGHT TO THE COMMITTEE WHEN WE GET READY TO MAKE EN.
DORSEMENTS OR WHATEVER.
A IN THE 1982 DEMOCRATiC PRIMARY IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY, HOW MANY OF THE CANDIDATES THAT THE BLACK POLITI-
CAL CAUCUS ENDoRSED WoN TN THE PRIMARY?
A YOU MEAN THE ENTIRE--EVERY OFFICE?
a FoR THE HOUSE?
A OH, FOR THE HOUSE. I THINK ALL THAT WE EN-
DORSED FOR THE PRIMARY WON.
A LET ME REMIND YOU THAT I BELIEVE MR. RICHARD-
SON RAN IN 1982; DIDNTT HE?
A WELL, HE WON THE PRIMARY. HE DIDN'T WIN THE
GENERAL.
A AND IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, HOW MANY OF THE
CANDIDATES THAT WERE ENDORSED BY CAUCUS WON?
A ALL BUT MR. RI CHAP.DSON.
a Now, t'4s. LYNCH---
A (turrRposING) MIGHT I STATE, TOO, FOR CLARIT
WE ENDORSED THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, WHICH CONSISTED OF
SIX WHITES AND TWO BLACKS. SO SIX WHITES WON AND ONE
BLACK FOR TIIE HOUSE.
a IN THE GENERAL ELECTION FoR THE HoUSE?
A IN THE GENERAL ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE.
A AND IN TH5 PRIMARY ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE IN
F t. O. Bor 2alai
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ^,tAlN
OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832'9085
779.3619 976-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IgB2, YOU ALSO ENDORSED SIX BLACKS AND TWO WHITES; DID
YOU NOT?
A NO. t^lE ENDORSED THE OTHER WAY AROUND' WE t
ENDORSED S I X VJH I TES AND TWO BLACKS.
A DID I MISSTATE THAT? I AM SORRY. HOW MANY
VOTES DID MR. RICHARDSON LOSE BY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION
IN 1982?
A 250 VOTES.
a ouT oF HOW MANY?
AITHINKHEGoT12,oo0-14,000.IAMNoTREALLY
SURE.
aHowMANYTIMESHADHERUNFoRPUBLICoFFICE
BE FORE ?
AHEHADNoTRUN.THISWASHISFIRSTTRYFoR
PUBLIC OFFI CE.
' a FOR ANY P.IIBLIC OFFICE?
A FOR ANY PUBLiC OFFICE.
aLooKINGATTHATMAP.-MAYIAPPRoACHTHEEXHI-
B[:T AND THE WITNESS FOR A MOMENT?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY.
BY MR. LEONARD:
aWHICHISGINGLESEXHIBIT4(A),MS.LYNCH-.YoU
HAVE SEEN THIS MAP BEFORE TOTTAY; HAVE YOU NOT?
A NO; NOT BEFORE TODAY'
A DID YOU:HAVE A CHANCE EARLIER TODAY TO TAKE A
P. o. Eor 2alcl
Ll R.bgh. Noil crrollil 2?otl
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBlNG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 e76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LOOK AT IT?
A YES,
A DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA THAT IS
CONTAINED WITHIN THE RED LINES AND LOOKS KIND OF LIKE A
BAT THAT BIT CHARLOTTE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
YE S.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AREA?
I DO.
THAT, THE RECORD SHOWS, I5 THE OUTLINE OF TWO
DiSTRICTS. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITHS I NGLE-MEI4BER HOUSE
TH/\T ?
A YES.
A IF THOSE TWO SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS WERE
CREATED, MS. LYr.lCH, WHAT IN YOUR OPINION WoULD BE THE
PROEABiLITY THAT A BLACK WOULD BE ELECTED IN THE BALANCE
OF.HOUSE DISTRICT 36 OUTSIDE OF THOSE TWO SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS?
o
RUN.
A WELL, IT I,IOULD pEPEND 0N, YOU KNOW, WHO WQULD
I COULDN I T ANSI^/ER THAT QUEST I ON.
THANK YOU. WHEN DID YCU FIRST BECOME AWARE
THAT THE LEGISLATURE HAD BEFORE IT THE ISSUE OF REDIS-
TRICTING OF THE TWO IIOUSES THAT INVOLVED THE ISSUE OF
S I NGLE VERSUS MULTI -|.4EMBER DI STRTCTS ?
A I DO NOT REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE. I I^'OULD
IMAGINE SOI,1E}\/HERE iN THE PROCESS OF IT BEING DISCUSSED
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, R.AI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
AND IN THE NEI{SPAPERS.
A DID YOU HAVE ANY DISCUSSIONS GENERALLY WITH
RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE WITH MS. LESLIE WINNER, COUNSEL FOR
THE PLAINTIFF IN THIS CASE, BEFORE YOU BECAME AI^IARE OF
THE FACT THAT IT WAS AN ISSUE?
A NO.
MS. I,'INNER:
ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE.
OSJECT ON THE GROUND OF
MR. LEONARD: I DIDNIT ASK WHAT THE
DISCUSSIONS WERE. I SIMPLY ASKED IF SHE HAD ANY.
JUDGE PHI LLIPS: OVERRULED.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A THE ANSWER WAS IINOII'
A NO.
A HOW DID YOU FIRST LEARN ABOUT THE FACT THAT
THiS WAS A CONTROVERSY IN THE LEGISLATURE?
A I ASSISTED.IN A ROAST OF THE MAYOR OF THE CITY
OF CHARLOTTE AND SAT I.IEXT TO SENATOR CRAIG LAWING, WHO
WAS VERY CONCERNED AT THAT TIME ABOUT HAVING TO GO BACK
AND FORT}I TO RALE I GH.
A DID YOU AND SENATOR LAWING HAVE A DISCUSSION
OF THE SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS AT THE ROAST
FOR THE MAYOR?
A WE DID.
A CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YEAR THAT WAS?
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AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. ,vlAlN OFFICE, RAIE|GH, 832.e085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IT WAS PIIOBABLY A LITTLH OVER A YEAR AGO.
IT WAS A DIABETIC ROAST. I DONIT REMEMBER THE EXACT YE
THE THING THAT MAKES IT STICK OUT IN MY MIND--HE HAD TO
LEAVE THE ROAST FOR AN INTERVIEW BECAUSE THEY WERE
GETTING READY TO PROPOSE--THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, I THIN
HAD RULED THAT THEY tr,JEREN'T GOING TO ACCEPT THE FIRST
DRAFT OR SOMETHING. AND THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE TO GO
BACK TO RALEIGH.
BUT I CAN' T TELL YOU THE EXACT DATE. I DO
HAVE IT ON MY CALENDAR BECAUSE THE EVENT WAS ONE I HAD T
A,TTEND.
A WELL, I AM NOT TRYING TO EMBARRASS YOU IN ANY
BUT COULD yOU REMEMBER IF IT WAS LAST--WAS IT Lg82,
CAN YOU REMEMBER THE YEAR?
WAY.
198 1?
THAT I
A IT I^,OULD BE OVER A YEAR AGO. THAT IS THE BES
CAN REMEMBER FROM THE DATE
A WHEN YOU HAD THE DISCUSSION WITH SENATOR
LAWING THAT EVENING AT THE. ROAST, DID YOU UNDERSTAND
WHAT THE ISSUE WAS?
NOT IN TOTAL. WHAT I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND IS
WHY THE ST/iTE DELEGATION WAS REACTING THE WAY IT WAS TO
THE ENTIRE ISSUE. AI{D THERE SEEMED TO BE SOME THINKING
THAT WHILE THIS WAS GOING TO BENEFIT THE BTACK COMMUNITY
THAT IF I WERE A DEMOCRAT I WOULD BE CONCERNED THAT IT
WOULD ALSO BENEFIT THE REPUBLICANS.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIB]NG, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
so you KNow, I REALLY COULDNT T GET AT WHY
THEY WERE HAVING SUCH A PROBLEM WITH REDRAWING THESE
L I NES.
A DID YOU HAVE GENERAL KNOWLEDGE THAT THE LEGIS-
LATURE WAS REQUIRED TO REAPPORTION ITSELF SOMETIME AFTER
THE 19BO CENSUS?
I PROBABLY HAD A GENERAL KNOWLEDGE.
DID YOU AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO THE EVENING WITH
SENATOR LAWING COMMUNICATE TO THE MECKLENBURG DELEGATION
/
THAT YOU WANTED THEM TO SINGLE MEMBER CHARLOTTE SO THAT
THE BLACK COMMUNITY WOULD HAVE TWO--THE BLACK COMMUNITY
WOULD HAVE THE MAJORITY HOUSE AND SENATE SEATS TO THE
FULL EXTENT THAT IT COULD?
A I WAS A PART OF A COMMITTEE THAT THE CAUCUS
HAD THAT INVITED ALL THE DELEGATION MEMBERS TO A MEETING.
I UNFORTUNATELY GOT SICK AND HAD TO GO IN THE HOSPITAL
FOR SURGERY AND COULD NOT ATTEND THE MEETING. SO I NEVER
SAl IN COUNCIL WITH THE DELEGATION AS A RESULT OF BEING
HOSPITALIZED
A MY QUESTION WAS-.IN LIGHT OF YOUR ANSWER, DID
THAT MEETING TAKE PLACE BEFORE OR AFTER THE DINNER OR THE
N I GHT YOU HAD THE D I SCUSS I ON WI'TH SENATOR LA\^II NG?
A THAT MEETING PROBABLY TOOK PLACE BEFORE
DINNER, BECAUSE I THINK THE DINNER MIGHT HAVE BEEN
APRI L OF ,82.
THE
IN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFIICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A MS" LYNCH, DID YOU OR THE BLACK POLITICAL
CAUCUS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY PUT ON ITS AGENIDA DURING
THE 19BO ELECTIONS FOR THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE OF THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA THE ISSUE OF SINGLE
VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS?
A THE FULL BODY, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, DID NOT DO
THAT PRrOR TO--1980, DID YOU SAY?
a FoR THE i980 ELECTIONS FOR MEMBERS OF THE
HOUSE AND SENATE?
A I DONIT THINK SO.
q I TAKE IT THAT DR. BERTHA MAXWELL WAS ONE OF
YOUR FAVORITE CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A DID DR. MAXWELL HAVE ANY PROBLEMS DURING THE
ELECTION YOU REFERRED TO THAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED HER TO
HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO CAMPAIGN AS FULLY AS ONE MIGHT
CAMPA I GN ?
ADR.MAXWELLiSMoTHERDIEDNEARTHEENDoFTHE
CAMPAIGN. BUT TO COIN A PHRASE THAT WE USE QUITE OFTEN,
IF SHE HADNIT GOTTEN IT TOGETHER BY THAT TIME IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN TOO LATE ANYWAY. BUT EVERY EFFORT WAS MADE TO
SEE TO IT THAT SHE HAD IT TOGETHER. HER MOTHER DIED NEAR
THE END OF HER CAMPAIGN. YES'
aMS.LYNCH,MYSPECIFICQUESTIoNIS--ANDPLEAS
THINK THIS THROU-GH CAREFULLY..DID THAT PERSONAL TRAGEDY
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, R,ALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THAT WAS
ABILITY
A
a
SUFFERED BY DR. MAXWELL IN ANY WAY
TO CAMPAIGN IN THAT ELECTION?
ONLY NEAR THE LAST FEW WEEKS OF
BUT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION IS
AFFECT HER
THE CAMPAIGN.
rrYESrri IS IT
NOT?
I
A NOT IN TOTAL BECAUSE, A5 I STATED, TO BE FAIR
DR. I4AXWELL I S MOTHER DIED NEAR THE END OF THE CAMPAIGN.
SHE HAD ABOUT TWO I,JEEKS LEFT TO CAMPAIGN.AND,'I MIGHT SAY,
FULFILLED AS MANY OBLIGATIONS AS SHE COULD EVEN AFTER
THAT POINT. SHE WAS AWARE OF THE SACRIFICES THAT HAD
BEEN MADE AND WAS TRYING TO CARRY THOSE OBLIGATIONS OUT.
A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLEN-
BURG COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS, DO YOU PERCEIVE, MS.
LYNCH, THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY FULLY AND
COMPLETELY PARTICIPATING IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN
MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A YES. I FEEL THAT BLACK PEOPLE DO HAVE SOME
PROBLEMS IN PARTICIPATING'FULLY IN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.
A BE VERY SPECIFIC, IF YOU WOULD, WITH THE
COURT. AND TELL US WHAT THOSE ARE.
ASIMPLYTHATHISToRYANDTRADITIoNHASNoT
ENCOURAGED THE BLACK CITiZENS OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO
REGISTER AND VOTE; THAT MANY PEOPLE, AS I STATED BEFORE'
ARESTILLAFRAIDoFWHATTHEYWILLHAVEToFACE.THE
LITERACY RATE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IS ABOUT 50r000
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PEOPLE THAT ARE ILLITERATE. MANY OF THOSE LIVE IN THE
BLACK COMMUNITY. AND MANY PEOPLE STILL FEEL THAT THEY
WILL BE ASKED TO READ OR WRITE SOMETHING IN ORDER TO
REGISTER TO VOTE. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE TO OVER-
COME IS TO ASSURE THEM THAT THAT IS NOT THE CASE. AND
IT IS A SLOW PROCESS IN DOING THAT. BUT ONCE IT IS DONE,
THEN THEY TEND TO COME OUT.
A DID THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS RECENTLY RUN
A PROGRAM CALLED A CITIZENS AWARENESS PROGRAM RELATING TO
THE REGISTRATION OF VOTERS IN THE STATE?
a
CAMPA I GN?
DID INDEED.
WAS MECKLENBURG COUNTY A MAJOR FOCUS OF THAT
A MECKLENBURG COUNTY WAS A MAiJOR FOCUS OF THAT
CAMPAI GN.
, A DID THAT CA}4PAIGN RESULT TN A SUBSTANTIAL IN-
CREASE IN THE NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS WHO WERE REGISTERED
TO VOTE IN THE COUNTY?
A IT HAD-.A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE REGISTERED.
BUT IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MORE UNREGISTERED-
a (lNrrRposrNG) excusr ME.
I WILL HAVE TO SAY NO. IT DID NOT RESULT IN
SUBSTANTIAL, BECAUSE THERE ARE OVER 35,OOO UNREGISTERED.
a so THERE ARE STILL 35,000 BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE
ELIGIBLE TO VOTE BUT WHO ARE NOT REGTSTERED?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. M,AIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A
a
OPINION
B LAC KS
THAT IS CORRECT.
DID THAT CAMPAIGN HAVE AI.IY IMPACT ON YOUR
WITH RESPECT TO THE FEARS AND THE IMPEDIMENTS
IN REGISTERING TO VOTE?
TO
THE CAMPAIGN SHOWED THAT THERE WAS GOING TO
BE-_IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WE TRY TO MAKE VOTING OR
REGISTRATION ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE. THIS IS WHAT MAKES
IT SO FRUSTRATING THAT MANY PEOPLE STILL HOLD THESE
MYTHS TO BE TRUE, BECAUSE IT STILL MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO
GET PEOPLE TO REGISTER WITH A COUNTY THAT HAS WELL OVER
5 O PE RCENT OF 1 TS ELI.G I BLE -POPULAT
I.ON: WH] CH ARE BLACK
STILL UNREGISTERED."
a V,/ELL, IT IS A MYTH; ISNrT IT?
A WELL, I KNOW IT TO BE A MYTH SINCE THE RULE
IS A RULE. BUT IN TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE WHO DONTT
KNOW, IT TO BE A MYTH AND WHO ARE STILL QUESTIONING
WHETHER OR NOT THEY WTI.I- REAP SOME REPRISAL AS A RESULT
OF THAT, WE RUN INTO PEOPLE.THAT HAVE SERVED IN PRISON
OR SOMETHING. AND THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOI.I THEY CAN
BECOME FULL CITIZENS AGAIN.
A CERTAINLY ONE OF-THE THINGS YOU HAVE DONE, MS.
LYNCH, WITH RESPECT TO GETTING GREATER BLACK PARTICIPA-
TION AND REGISTRATION IS THE VOTE TASK FORCE?
CORRECT.
AND MR. *FJO, WHO I UNDERSTAND IS THE NEXTa
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36't9 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
WITNESS, IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a wouLD you poINT To THAT AS ONE OF THE MAJOR
EFFORTS THAT YOU HAVE UNDERTAKEN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A I WOULD INDEED.
A WOULD YOU SAY OVERALL THAT THE EFFORT BY THE
STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS WAS ONE WHICH WAS DESIGNED TO
TRY TO IMPROVE THE PARTICIPATION BY BLACKS IN THE PROCESS
A CERTAINLY.
A INCIDENTALLY, YOU ACTIVELY SUPPORTED REPRESEN_
TATIVE LOUISE BRENNAN IN THE LAST ELECTION; DIDN'T YOU?
A I SUPPORTED THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, OF WHICH
SHE WAS A PART.
A DID YOU SUPPORT HER IN THE PRIMARY?
A I SUPPORTED TI{E..YES; I DID. I SUPPORTED ALL
I NCUMBENTS.
A DID YOU SUPPORT SUSAN GREEN FOR COUNTY
COMMiSSIONER?
A I DID.
A DID YOU SUPPORT PAM PATTERSON FOR CITY
COUNC I L ?
A SHE IS MY DISTRICT COUNCILPERSON. I DID.
A DID YQU SUPPORT BEN TYSON FOR THE STATE SEMTE
A BEN TYSON--YES; I DID.
a I AM S0RRY--TYSON. DID YoU SUPPORT BETTY'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CHAPIN FOR THE CITY COUNCIL?
A YES; I DID.
A ARE ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHITE?
A ALL THOSE PEOPLE ARE WHITE.
MR. LEONARD:
MS. GUINiER:
THAT I S ALL.
WE HAVE NO REDIRECT,
YOUR HONOR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU, MS. LYNCH.
\,UDGE DUPREE: LET ME ASK A QUESTION.
EXAMINATION
BY JUDGE DUPREE:
A YOU ARE CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY
BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A YES, SIR.
.. a How LoNG HAVE YOU HELD A POSITION ON THE
BOAR D ?
A I HAVE BEEN THE 9HAiRMAN GOING INTO MY THIRD
YEAR.
A WAS THAT YOUR FiRST TERM ON THE BOARD, THEN?
A NO. I SERVED TWO TERMS PRIOR TO BEING THE
C HA I R}4AN .
a How Do You GET YOUR APPOINTMENT TO THE BOARD?
A THE LOCAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
WHICH IS COMPRISED OT THE CHAIR AND VICE CHAIR FROM EACH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PREC I NCT.
a rHEY MAKE A RECOMMENDATIOI',! TO THE GOVERNOR?
A YES.
A AND THE GOVERNOR APPOINTS YOU?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THERE ARE THREE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD?
THERE ARE T\{O MEMBERS OTHER THAN YOURSELF?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a l^rHAT IS THEIR RACE?
A THEY ARE WHITE. I AM THE ONLY BLACK FEMALE
TO EVER SERVE ON THE BOARD. THERE WAS ONE OTHER BLACK
I,/HO SERVED AND DIED IN OFFICE. AND THEN ONE WAS AP-
POINTED TO FILL HIS SEAT. THEN THERE WERE NO BLACKS FOR
SEVERAL YEARS. AND THEN I WAS APPOINTED.
A DOES THE BOARD SELECT ITS OWN CHAIRMAN?
. A YES. I MIGHT STATE FOR THE RECORD, YOUR
HONOR, THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE CHAIRMAN THE FIRST
TERM. I RECEIVED THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF VOTES. HOWEVER,
THE BOARD DECIDED TO ELECT ANOTHER MEMBER AS THE CHAIR.
SO I PATIENTLY WAITED MY TURN AND THEN WAS ABLE TO CON-
VINCE THE}1 THAT I SHOULD BE THE CHAIR.
aTHEREWoULDNTTBEBUTTHREEVOTES;woULDTHERE
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A FOR THE CHAIRMANSHIP?
A THAT IS_CORRECT. THE TWO \^'HITES VOTED FOR TH25
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AND TRANSCRTBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OTHER WHITE AND BROKE TRADITION. BUT IF YOU ENDURE TO
THE END, THEN YOU CAN FINALLY BE VICTORIOUS.
A NOW, THIS CANDIDATE, DR. MAXWELL-'SHE WAS A
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSTTY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHARLOTT
SHE IS.
WAS THIS THE FIRST TIME THAT SHE HAD RUN FOR
PUBLIC OFFICE?
AITISTHEFIRSTTIMESHEHADRUNFoRPUBLIC
OFFICE.
AND YOU SAY THAT SHE DOES NOT PLAN TO RUN
AGAIN?
A SHE DOES NOT.
aDoYoUKNoWoFFHANDABoUTHoWHEREXPERIENCE
IN LOSING THE FIRST TIME OUT COMPARES WITH THE CANDIDATES
OFTHEOTHERRACEWHOLOSETHEFIRSTTIMEOUT?
,AFRoMTHESTANDPoINToFMoNEYANDVISIBILITY,
ASISTATEDEARLIER,WETRYToASSESSWHATAFIRST-TIMER
GOES THROUGH--WHICH IS GENERALLY A HARD TIME-'GETTING
VISIBILITY, RAISiNG MONEY.
WE RAISED OVER $2O,OO|), WHICH IS A VERY LARGE
AMqUNT FOR A STATE HOUSE RACE IN A COUNTY LIKE MECKLEN-
BURG,INoRDERToGIVEHERTHEEDGE.INCoMPARISoN,WE
HAVEHADWHITESv,lHoHAVEHADLESSVISIBILITYTHANDR.
MAXWELL,LIVEINoTHERAREASoFTHECoMMUNITYANDWERE
STILLUNABLETo-.STIEWASUNABLEToGETELECTED.ANDTHEY
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WERE ELECTED. REPRESENTATIVE BLACK iS ONE EXAMPLE.
A LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION: HAVE YOIJ EVER
KNOI^,N A WHITE TO GET DEFEATED THE FIRST TIME OUT?
A NOT WITH THE MONEY AND EVERYTHING THAT SHE
HAD--NO. BUT I HAVE KNOWN OF WHITES WHO HAVE LOST. BUT
IT WAS GENERAL.LY BECAUSE THEY DIDNTT HAVE MONEY OR
VISIBILITY OR INROADS IN THE COMMUNITY.
A I AM.JUST INTERESTED IN WHETHER OR NOT IT IS
NORMAL FOR A PERSON WHO RUNS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY TO GET
ELECTED THE FiRST TIME OUT, REGARDLESS OF RACE.
A DEPENDING ON THE KIND OF CAMPAIGN.-THERE ARE
SERIOUS CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE. AND THEN T}IERE ARE PEOPLE
THAT.JUST SORT OF WANT TO GET OUT THERE T.O GET A LITTLE
EXPOSURE. AND MAYBE THEY INTEND TO RUN FOR ANOTHER
OFFICE.
. WE FELT THAT IN DR. MAXWELL'S CASE SHE WAS
SORT OF A TEST PROJECT; THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE ASSESSED
FOR US WHY BLACK CAI\IDIDATES LOSE. THEIR ASSESSMENT
GENERALLY I S, III^/ELL, YOU ALL DIDNI T RAISE ENOUGH MONEY.
YOU DIDNIT LET THE PERSON RECEIVE THE KIND OF VISIBILITY
THEY NEEDED, '' EI CETERA, ET CETERS.
SO DR. MAXWELL WAS OUR TEST CASE. SHE WAS
VERY WELL KNOWN IN THE CHARLOTTE AREA. SHE WAS VERY WELL
L I KED I N THE CHARLOTTE COMMUI.I I TY . WE GOT THE MONEY . WE
GOT THE PUBLICITY THAT THEY ADVISED US. MAYBE WE JUSTI
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
HAD THE WRONG CONSULTANT. BUT WE FOLLOIdED THE ADVICE
THAT WAS OUTLINED TO ASPIRE YOU TO VICTORY.
A SHE SOUNDS LIKE A HIGHLY QUALIFIED CANDIDATE.
A SHH IS.
A IT SEEMS UNFORTUNATE THAT SHE WONIT RUN AGAIN,
BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THAT MAYBE SHE WOULD MAKE IT THE
SECOND TIME.
A WELL, I DONI T THINK THE DEFEAT WAS WHAT CAUSED
HER TO DECIDE NOT TO RUN AGAIN. IN MY CONVERSATION WITH
HER, HER DECISION WAS BASED UPON THE FACT THAT THE--SHE
LIVES IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY.
a *ELL, REGARDLESS oF ,HAT ,i* *orrvATroN rs---
A (INTERPOSING) SNC WAS SURPRISED THAT---
a (trurrRposrNc) rr rs UIIFoRTUNATE THAT A cANDr -
DATE WITH HER QUALIFICATIONS-.-
A (rnrrnPosrNG) wtt-l Nor RUN.
a ---wrLL NoT oFFER AGArN FOR THE OFFICE.
A I AGREE WITH YOU.
A HOW MANY BLACK REPRESENTATIVES, IF ANY, DO
THEY HAVE IN MECKLENBURG IN THE STATE HOUSE?
A WE HAVE ONE..MR. BERRY.
A THAT IS PHIL BERRY?
A PHIL BERRY.
A WHAT IS HIS PROFESSION ORDINARILY?
A MR. BERRY-IS A BUSINESSMAN IN THE COMPUTER AN
a P. O. 8or ztB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENtX, ARtZot.IA
OFFI CE SUPPLY BUS INESS.
A DO YOU HAVE A SENATOR IN THAT DISTRICT THAT
I S BLACK?
A NO' SENATOR FRED ALEXANDER, WHO WAS IN THAT
DISTRICT DIED--I THINK IN ABOUT 1980. AND WE LOST IN
THE ELECTION TO TRY TO GET SOMEONE TO FILL HIS SEAT.
JUDGE DUPREE: DO THESE QUESTIONS BY THE
COURT INSPIRE FURTHER iNTERROGATION BY COUNSEL FOR EITHER
SIDE?
(I.Io R ES PoNS E. )
JUDGE DUPREE: THAI\K YoU VERY MUCH.
(wrrNrss EXcusED. )
JUDGE PHILLIPS: CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS.
MS. GUINI ER :
(wnree upoN,
PLAINTIFFS CALL SAM REID.
. SAMUEL L. REID
WAS CALLED AS A W''*U", DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFTED AS
FOLLOI^/S: )
DI RECT EXAMINAT I oN 11:40A.M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL IT,
PLEASE?
A SAMUEL L. REID--R-E-I-D.
A WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS, MR. REID?
t-r P. O. 9or att6l
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A 1040 cRICKETEER (pnOrurrtC) DRIVE; CHARLOTTE,
MECKLENBURG COUNTY.
a Now, THERE IS A MAp IN FRONT OF yOU THAT iS
PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT 4(A). MAY THE WITNESS APPROACH THE
MAP, YOUR HONOR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THE WITNESS MAY APPROACH
THE EXHIBIT.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DO YOU RECOGNIZE \^IHAT THIS MAP ATTEMPTS TO
PORTRAY ?
A YES; I DO.
A WHAT IS THAT?
A IT IS A MAP OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY.
a couLD You PoINT TO WHERE YOU LIVE ON THAT MAP
BY PRECINCT?
. A PRECINCT 16, WHICH IS LOCATED ON THE NoRTHWEST
SIDE OF THE COUNTY.
A THANK YOU. YOUTMAY RESUME YOUR SEAT. WHAT IS
THE RACIAL MAKEUP OF PRECINCT I6?
A 90 PERCENT BLACK.
A WHAT IS THE RACIAL MAKEUP OF YOUR PARTICULAR
NEIGHBORHOOD T./ITHI N THAT PRECINCT?
A ABOUT 65 PERCENT BLACK.
A HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU LIVED IN THAT PARTICU
LAR NEIGHBORHOOD?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A 16 YEARS.
A HOW. MANY YEARS HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?
A ALL MY LIFE.
a WHERE DO YOU WORK?
A GENERAL TiRE AND RUBBER COMPANY.
A HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ELECTORAL POLITICS
IN CHARLOTTE?
A YES; I HAVE
A IN WHAT CAPACITY?
A LAST CAPACITY AS PRECINCT CHAIRMAN; SECOND
VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, MECKLENBURG COUNTY;
SPECIAL REGISTRAR FOR THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS, MECKLENBURG
COUNTY; AND AT PRESENT/ CHAIRMAN OF THE VOTE TASK FORCE.
A WHAT IS THE VOTE TASK FORCE?
A THE VOTE TASK FORCE I S AN OUTGROWTH OF A ).'
COMMITTEE OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS WHICH IS COMPRISE
OF VOLUNTEER WORKERS THAT ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PARTI-
CIPATION OF BLACKS IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS.
a How LoNG HAS THE VOTE TASK FORCE BEEN IN
EXISTENCE?
A AS AN OFFICIAL ORGANIZATION, SINCE 1979--r78.
A PRIOR TO THAT TIME?
A IT WAS A COMMITTEE ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE
TO REGISTER AND VOTE AND TRYING tO STIMULATE POLITICAL
I NVOLVEMENT.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NOW, YOU SAID THAT THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE TAS
FORCE IS VOLUNTARY. IS YOUR POSITION A PAID POSITION OR
IT IS VOLUNTARY?
A IT IS VOLUNTARY NONPROFIT.
A HOW MANY HOURS A WEEK DO YOU SPEND WITH THE
VOTE TASK FORCE?
A PERSONALLY I SPEND ABOUT 15 TO 18 HOURS A WEE
THAT ENTAILS SETTING UP REGISTRATION DRIVES, GOING TO
COMMUNITY GROUPS AND TRYING TO ENCOURAGE GROUPS TO PUT ON
REGISTRATION DRIVES.
A ABOUT HOW MANY MEMBERS ARE THERE ON YOUR TASK
FORCE ?
A APPROXIMATELY 15 TO 20.
A HOW MANY HOURS A WEEK DO THOSE MEMBERS SPEND
IN REGISTRATION_RELATED ACTIVITTES?
, A THAT VARIES, DEPENDING ON THE NUMBER OF DRIVES
WE HAVE SCHEDULED..ON THE AVERAGE, ABOUT EIGHT TO NINE
HOURS A WEEK
a Nor^r, You sAY You PUT IN APPROXIMATELY 20 HOURS
A WEEK AS CHAIR. AND THE OTHER MEMBERS PUT IN BETWEEN--
EXCUSE ME. YOU PUT IN ABOUT 18 HOURS A WEEK AS CHAIR;
AND THE OTHER MEMBERS PUT IN BETI,JEEN EIGHT TO NINE HOURS.
WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR YOU AND THE OTHER MEMBERS TO PUT
THIS TIME AS VOLUNTEERS?
A STATE YOUR QUESTION AGAIN.,o
F P. O. Bd 281G0
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
A WHY DO '/OU HAVE TO SPEND TIME AS VOLUNTEERS
WORK I NG ON R.EG I STRAT I ONI?
A WELL, ORIGINALLY WHEN WE STARTED \^'E SAW A NEED
FOR THIS. THERE WAS A NEED TO GET MORE BLACKS INVOLVED
DUE TO THE FACT OF LOW REGISTRATION AND EVEN LOWER
TURNOUT. TIjE BOARD OF ELECTIONS HAD FACILITIES AT SIX
LOCATIONS_-THE LIBRARIES AND THE BANKS. BUT THEY l,IERE
NOT ACCESSIBLE TO THE GRASS ROOTS PEOPLE.IN THE COMMUNI-
TIES THAT NEED TO GET ON THE BOOKS .AND REGISTER.
SO WE FORMED THE GROUP TO GO OUT AND DO THE
.LEGWORK
TO GET THE PEOPLE TO COME OUT TO THOSE PLACES.
THAT WAS SOMEWHAT SUCCESSFUL. BUT FROM THERE WE PETI-
TIONED AND REQUESTED THE BOARD THAT I,,E HAVE SPECIAL
REGISTRARS, WHICH I AM ONE OF.
AND THE SPECIAL REGISTRARS WOULD BE ABLE TO
INITIATE OR INSPIRE OTHERS TO INITIATE REGISTRATION
DRIVES WITHIN THEIR GENERAL COMMUNITY, CHURCHES AND SO
FORTH
-] Q DOES THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS ITSELF CONDUCT ANY
REGISTP.ATION DRIVES?
A NOT AS SUCH. THEY RESPOND TO REQUESTS TO
HAVE A REGISTRAR AT'GIVEN ACTIVITIES IN THE COMI'IUNITIES.
AND THEY HAVE, LIKE I SAY, LIBRARIES AND BANKS WHERE
PEOPLE CAN REGISTER. BUT THEY DO NOT GO OUT ACTIVELY AS
WE DO TO TOUCH THE VOTER.
F P. O. &r 281C3
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PEOPLE WHO
ME CKLEN BURG
TASK FORCE
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF BLAC
wER.E ELIGIBLE TO VOTE I,,HO t^tERE REGISTERED IN
COUNTY iN 1978 WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED THIS
AS AN OFFICIAL ORGANTZAT ION?
APPROXIMATELY 52 PERCENT.
ABOUT 52 PERCENT OF THE ELIGIBLE BLACK VOTERS
STERED ?
CORRECT.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF
BLACK VOTERS WHO ARE PRESENTLY REGiSTERED
A
a
WERE REGI
A
a
ELIGIBLE
1983?
THE
IN
APPROXIMATELY 54 PERCENT*-54 TO 56 PERCENT.
ARE YOU FAMiLIAR WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF THE
ELIGIBLE WHITE VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY WHO ARE
REGISTERED TO VOTE?
AT THIS TIME IT IS ABOUT 78 PERCENT
NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING,
B.ETWEEN 1978 AND 1983 THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED BLACK
VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY HAS GONE UP FROM 52 PERCENT
TO BETWEEN 54 AND 56 PERCENT? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE
SAYING?
A NOW, THAT IS DUE TO THE FACT--THERE HAS BEEN
SLOW GROWTH. WE HAVE BEEN AT IT ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE YEARS
OR SIX YEARS TRYING TO REGISTER PEOPLE. NOW, THAT IS DUE
TO THIS ATTITUDE IN THE COMMUNITY OF LACK OF PARTICIPATI
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. &r 2lle3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OR THAT
TO TRY
EMP LOY
THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CANNOT GET IN THE SYSTE
THE SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK FOR THEM. AND SO WE HAVE
TO ENCOURAGE THEM THROUGH ALL MEANS THAT WE CAN
TO GET THEM TO PARTICIPATE IN iT.
WHY IN YOUR OPINION IS THERE AN ATTITUDE THAT
THE SYSTEM DOESN' T I^TORK FOR THEM?
A WELL, WE DONIT HAVE TOO MANY EXAI4PLES YOU
COULD POINT TO AS SAYING THAT, YOU KNO\,tr, ttWE GOT THIS
PERSON ON THIS BOARD, THIS pERSON HERE.'l
a WHEN you sAy ITHIS pERSON,il WHAT DO yOU MEAN?
THAT ITJE DONIT HAVE ANY BLACK CANDIDATES--NOT
cANDIDATES, BUT BLACK COUNCT t-mrN--n CERTAIN I.,IUMBER OF
COUNCILMEN, NO ONE AT THE STATE LEVEL OFFICEHOLDERS THAT
WE CAN SHOW EXAMPLES THAT IT IS POSSI.BLE TO ELECT A BLAC
A IN ADDITION TO THE LACK OF BLACK CANDIDATES,
ARE.THERE ANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT YOU HAVE IN MOTIVATING
BLACKS TO REGISTER TO VOTE?
A YES--PARTICULARLJ IF ]IT IS A FIRST-TIME VOTER.
THE FIRST TIME YOU REGISTER A PERSON, IT IS VERY IMPOR.
TANT TO GET THAT PERSON OUT BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY II'I-.
GRAINED INTO HIM THAT THE SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK FOR HIM.
AND WHEN YOU I.JORK AND DO GET THEM TNVOLVED TO REGISTER
AND THE ELECTION COMES UP AND YOU HAVE GOT ATTRACTIVE
BLACK CANDIDATES AND THEY LOSE THE ELECTION, THIS PERSON
IS TURNED OFF, ALL THE TIME REINFORCING THAT THING THAT'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
77e.3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
IT DON'T WORK.
A YOU ARE SAYING iN ADDITION TO REGISTERING
PEOPLE YOU ALSO TRY TO GET THE PEOPLE OUT TO VOTE ON
ELECTION DAY?
A RIGHT. WE TRY TO GET OUT THE VOTE. WE USE
SUCH MECHANISMS AS LEAFLETS, PROVIDING TRANSPOP.TATION,
CANVASSING, THE MEDIA ANNOUNCEMENTS AND SO FORTH.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK
VOTERS WHO GENERALLY TURN OUT ON ELECTION DAY?
A SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 36 TO 45 PERCENT. THAT
DE,PENDS ON THE ELECTION..GENERAL ELECTIONS, PRIMARIES AND
SO FORTH.
A WHEN IT IS HIGHEST?
A NORMALLY AROUND A GENERAL ELECTION--PRESIDEN-
TiAL ELECTIONS.
q WHAT IS YOUR EXPER(ENCE IN TRYING TO GET A
NEWLY REGISTERED VOTER TO THE POLL'S VERSUS SOMEONE WHO
HAS VOTED BEFORE?
A IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. AS I STATED
EARLIER, TO GET THAT NEI^'LY REGISTERED PERSON OUT IS SOME-
THING HE IS NOT ACCUSTOMED TO DOiNG; WHEREAS SOMEONE THAT
IS REGISTERED AND HAS A HI:STORY OF VOTING AND IS FAMILIAR
WITH THE PROCESS AND THE SYSTEM..IT IS MORE READILY TO
GET HIM OUT TO VOTE BECAUSE HE KNOWS HOW THE SYSTEM WORK
HE KNOWS HE HAS GOT
_TOI
PARTICIPATE; WHEREAS, THE NEWLY
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZO\IA
REGISTERED VOTER-_YOU GOT TO SOME HIM SOMETHING THAT
IS TANGIBLE TO HIM THAT HE CAN RELATE TO.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CHANGE IN CHARLOTTE
FOR THE FORM OF ELECTION TO THE CITY COUNCIL?
A YES; I AM.
A WHAT I^'AS THAT CHANGE?
A THE CHANGE 1^IAS FROM AN AT.LARGE SYSTEM TO
DI STRI CT REPRESENTAT ION.
A WHEN WAS THAT CHANGE MADE?
A rN 1977.
A DID THAT CHANGE AFFECT YOUR EFFORTS TO REGIS-
TER BLACKS IN CHARLOTTE?
A YES; IT DID--IN THE EFFECT THAT AFTER DTSTRICT
WAS PASSED, I,JE WAS ABLE TO ELECT TWO MORE MEMBERS TO
CITY. CQUNCIL; WHERE PRIOR TO DISTRICT WE ONLY HAD ONE.
SO THIS WAS A TOOL THAT WE USED TO ENCOURAGE VOTER
REGISTRATION AND GET OUT THE VOTE.
q IN YOUR OPINION IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT
COULD BE DONE TO INCREASE REGISTRATI.ON OR TURNOUT AMONG
BLACKS ?
A I THINK THE MORE EXAMPLES YOU HAVE SET IN
GOVERNMENT TO POINT ToWARD OR--TO POINT TO, A5 SoMEoNE
GETTING ELECTED TO OFFICE, WOULD HELP INSPIRE PEOPLE OR
MOTIVATE THEM TO COME OUT. RIGHT NOW, ALL THEY CAN LOOK
AT AS AN EXAI.4PLE IS CITY COUNCiL, SCHOOL BOARD AND COUNT
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZOT,IA
COMMISSIONER.
A DO YOU THINK THAT BLACKS IN CHARLOTTE-MECKLEN-
BURG HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
POLITICAL PROCESS RIGHT NOW?
A NO.
MS. GUINIER:
TIONS OF THIS WITNESS.
I HAVE NO FURTHER QUES-
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 11:52 A.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MR. REID, HOW LONG HAS YOUR VOTE TASK FORCE
PROJECT BEEN IN EXISTENCE?
A SINCE 1978.
A TELL US SPECIFICALLY WHERE YOU GO TO REGISTER
VOTERS AND THE PRO,CEDURE OF GOING ABOUT DOING IT.
. A WE GO ALL OVER THE CITY AT REQUEST. BUT WE
INITIATE DRI.VES PRIMARILY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY WHEREAS
THERE IS A NEED FOR OUR TYPE SERVICES OF MAKING VOTER
REGISTRATION MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THEM.
WE ARE SPECIAL REGISTRARS. WE MAKE REqUESTS
ON A TWO DAY OR A ONE-DAY NOTICE TO THE BOARD IN WRITING
THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE AT A CERTAIN PLACE AT A CERTAIN
TIME. BEFORE THE SPECIAL REGISTRARS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO
MAKE A I,IRITTEN REQUEST 14 DAYS PRIOR TO THE DRIVE. AND
THEREFORE, A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT THAT--A LOT 0F
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
ORGANTZAT IONS THAT WE COME IN CONTACT I^/ITH PLAN TONIGH
AND WANT TO EXECUTE THE DRIVE NEXT WEEK OR TOMORROW,
WHICH IS UNDER THE GUIDELINES.
A TELL US SOME OF THE PLACES THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN
YOUR VOTE TASK FORCE.
A WE WORK MEMORIAL STADIUM AT THE SOCCER GAMES.
I^IE HAVE REGISTERED AT GAY RALLIES. WE REGISTERED AT THE
FESTIVAL I}'I THE PARK-.JUST ABOUT ANY AND EVERYWHERE. AND
MOST OF OUR REQUESTS COME FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY. BUT
WE ARE OPEN AND WE INITIATE DRIVES IN ALL COMMUNITIES.
A BUT FOR INSTANCE, IF A BLACK CHURCH IS HAVING
A PICNIC ON A SUNDAY, YOU MAKE A REQUEST TO SEND THE VOTE
TASK FORCE TO THE PICNIC? AND YOU CAN REGISTER PEOPLE?
A THEY MAKE THE REQUEST.
A THEY MAKE THE REQUEST TO YOU OR TO THE BOARD?
. A TO ME. AT TIMES THEY MAKE IT TO THE BOARD.
AND THE BOARD REFERRED THEM TO ME iF IT IS NOT BEFORE 14
DAYS
A DO YOU HAVE ANY DIFFI'CULTY WHEN THOSE REQUESTS
ARE MADE GETTING APPROVAL FROM THE BOARD?
A NO.
aDIDYoUHAVEANYDIFFICULTYGETTINGMEMBERSoF
YOUR TASK FORCE GROUP TO GO THOSE LQCATIONS?
A NONE.
a How MANY I4EMBERS ON YOUR VoTE TASK FORCE?
-
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A APPROXII'IATELY 15 TO 20. SOMETIMES I'T SWELLS
UP TO 50.
A ANY OF THEM WHITE?
A YES.
a Hot^l MANY OF THE 50?
A APPROXIMATELY 15.
A DO YOU HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY GETTING THOSE WHITE
MEMBERS TO GO TO THE BLACK FUNCTIONS TO REGISTER PEO.PLE?
A NO--NOT ONCE WE PAIR THEM OFF IN COMI.IUNITIES.
ARE YOU TALKING COMMUNITY DRIVES OR CLUBS OR WHAT?
a ANYBODY?
A NO.
A DO YOU EVER GET ANY REQUESTS FROM WHITE GROUP
A YES.
A GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES.
, A WE DID OTU FOR THE GAY AND LESBIAN LIBERATION,
UNCC CAMPUS. WE DONE ONE FOR THE GAY, I THINK, LIBERA-
TION. IT WAS A CLUB REQUEST--THE ODYSSEY CLUB. AND WE
DONE SOME FOR SANE. WE HAVE DONE A FEW FOR A COUPLE
OTHER COMI',IUNITY ORGANIZATIONS. I CANI T THINK OF THE
NAMES RIGHT NOW.
A HOW MANY BLACKS HAVE BEEN REGISTERED IN MECK-
LENBURG COUNTY SINCE YOU STARTED YOUR..THAT IS, NEW BLAC
VOTERS HAVE BEEN REGISTERED--SINCE YOU STARTED YOUR
PROJECT A FEr,t YEATS BACK?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PtoENtX, AntzoilA
A I WOULD SAY BETI^,EEN 61 000 TO 7,000.
a I MAy HAVE TIISUNDERSTOOD yOU. BUT DID yOU SAy
6r 000 To 7,000?
A CORRECT.
a DID yOU TAKE yOrJR VOTE TASK FORCE INTO ANy OF
THE BUS INESSES OR INDUSTRIAL PLANTS OP. I,IORK PLACES IN THE
COUNTY ?
A NO; WE HAVENI T. THAT IS SOMETHING WE ARE
l^,ORKING ON.
A THAT IS PART OF THE OVERALL STATE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS COMMISSION PROGRAM, THOUGH; ISNIT IT?
A YES.
A ARE YOU PART OF THAT?
A NO; I AM NOT. I AM A SPECIAL REGISTRAR. I
DO NOT DEAL-.THE BOARD INITIATES IT. AS FAR AS HTGH
SCHOOL REGISTRATION AND ALL THOSE, THOSE ARE THE BOARD
OF ELECTIONS FUNCTION;.
q ARE THOSE SEPARAJE FUNCTIONS FROM THE VOTE
TASK FORCE ?
A YES.
A SO YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THOSE?
A I KNOW THE BOARD HAS REGISTRATION WTTHIN THE
CITY CONCERNING HIGH SCHOOLS AND BUSINESSES.
A HAVE YOU GONE TO LIBRARIES IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY WITH YOUR TAS5 FORCE TO REGISTER PEOPLE?
F P. O. Bor 2alat
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NO; WE HAVEN'T. THE BOARD OF ETECTIONS--
THAT IS THEIR FUNCTION.
A BUT PEOPLE ARE REGISTERED IN LIBRARIES; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A AND THEY ARE REGISTERED IN BANKS?
A CORRECT.
a D0 You KNow How MANY REGISTRATION LOCATIONS
THERE ARE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A I DI.D. BUT AT PRESENT IT ESCAPES ME, BECAUSE
TH,EY NO LONGER REG I STER AT L I BRAR I ES .
a ARE THERE OVER 100?
A THEREABOUTS.
A ARE THERE ALSO SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMI4ISSI
IN THE COUNTY?
. A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, OTHER THAN THE---
a (rNrenPosING) coMMIsSIONERS?
A OTHER THAN THE TASK FORCE, THAT IS ALL I KNOW
0F.
aARETHERENoToTHERREGISTRATIoNcoMMISSIoNERS
OTHER THAN THE TASK FORCE?
A OH, THE PRECINCTS--YES.
a ARE THERE OVER 100 oF THoSE COMMISSIoNERS?
A YES; THERE ARE. BUT THERE AGAIN, THOSE PEOPL
ARE PAID. AND THEY ARE NOT VOLUNTEER LIKE WE ARE. SO
-
P. O, Bor zllGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
77e.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THEREFORE, IF THEY ARE NOT PAID IT IS HARD TO GET THEM
TO DO SOMETHING.
A I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD AGREE YOU ARE DOiNG A
GREAT JOB ON A VOLUNTEER BASIS. AND YOU HAVE BEEN RE-
GISTERING BLACKS IN MECKLENBURG CoUNTY AT A FASTER RATE
THAN THE WHITES HAVE BEEN REGISTERED; HAVE YOU NOT?
A CORRECT. THAT IS DUE BECAUSE THE REQUESTS ARE
COMING IN MORE READILY.NOW FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
q ON ELECTION DAY WHAT DOES THE VOTE TASK FORCE
DO?
A BASICALLY WE USE T}JE SAME TECHNIQUE WE USE IN
GETTING PEOPLE TO REGISTER. WE GO INTO COMMUNITIES, PUT
ON WORKSHOPS, LETTING THEM KNOW THERE IS NOTHING TO BE
AFRAID OF TO USE THE VOTING MACHINE.
WE KNOCK ON DOORS AND REMIND THEM TO GO VOTE,
OFFER TRANSPORTATION IF THEY.NEED IT IN THE ELECTIONS
COMMUN I TY.
a AI',ID SPECIFICALLY-ON ELECTIoN DAY YOU TRANSPORT
PEOPLE TO THE POLLS; DO YOU NOT?
A WE HELP IN THAT WAY. WE OFFER RTDES.
A AND IF I LIVED IN:MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND
COULDNIT GET TO THE POLLS AND CALLED THE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS, THEY WOULD GIVE ME YOUR VOTE TASK FORCE PHONE
NUMBER; RIGHT?
A RIGHT.'o
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PREC!SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A AND THE NEWSPAPER PUBL I SHES THAT I{UMBER?
A CORRECT.
a so ANYBODY IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY WHO DOESN'T
HAVE TRANSPORTATION CAN USE THE RESOURCES OF THE VOTE
TASK FORCE?
A CORRECT.
MR. LEONARD:
THANK YOU, MR. REID.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
MS. GUINIER: I HAVE JUST A FEW
QUESTIONS FOR REDIRECT, YOUR HONOR.
R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 12:OO N
BY MS. GUINIER:
A HAVE BLACKS BEEN REGISTERING AT A FASTER RATE
THAN WHITES IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE,
COUNSEL IS CROSS-EXAMINING HER OI^JN VIITNESS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE HE ANSWERED
THAT ON CROSS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN REGISTERING FASTER.
BY MS. GUINI ER:
A IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE TASK FORCE, HAVE
YOU BEEN REGISTERING PRIMARILY BLACKS OR PRIMARILY WHIT
A PRIMARILY BLACKS HERE LATELY, DUE TO THE
RESPONSE WE HAVE BEEI..I GETTING.
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE RELATIVE RATE OF
H P. O. Bor il16
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
REGISTRATION FOR BLACKS;AND FOR WHITES THROUGHOUT THE
COUNTY ?
A IT IS STILL LOW COMPARED TO THAT OF THE WHITE,
EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE INITIATED AND ACCEPT REQUESTS.
MS. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FUP.THER
QUESTIONS.
JUDGE BRITT: MR. WITNESS, BETWEEN THE
YEARS 1978 AND 198] WHEN YOU SAY THE PERCENTAGE OF
ELIGIBLE BLACK VOTERS WHO WERE REGISTERED INCREASED FROM
52 TO SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 54 AND 56 PERCENT, ARE YOU AWARE
WH.ETHER THERE I\,AS A PURGE OF THE VOTING LIST?
THE WITNESS:
JUDGE BRI TT:
THE WITNESS:
YES, S I R.
THERE WAS?
RIGHT, SIR. THIS IS
SOMETHING WE CONSTANTLY TRY TO REMIND PEOPLE OF--THAT
THEY HAVE TO VOTE IN SOME ELECTIONS IN ORDER TO STAY
ELIGIBLE TO VOTE iN TNE NEXT COMING ELECTION.
EXAMINATI.ON
BY JUDGE DUPREE:
A WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TASK
FORCE AND THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS? DO YOU HAVE AUTHORITY
TO ACTUALLY TAKE A BLANK INTO THE COMMUNITY AND REGISTER
A VOTER?
A YES; WE YVE. SIX QF US HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TO DO THIS AT A FIXED LOCATION.
A JUST AS A REGISTRAR IN A PRECINCT CAN DO, YOU
CAN GO INTO ANY PRECINCT AND REGISTER A VOTER?
A CORRECT, SIR.
a THEN OF COURSE, yOU WOULD HAVE TO TrJRI.,l YOUR
CARDS IN TO THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A RIGHT, SIR.
A WHEN YOU PERFORM THIS FUNCTION, IS THERE ANY.
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THE TASK FORCE MEMBER WHO IS UNDER-
TAKING TO REGISTER SOMEONE AND THE PROSPECTIVE REGISTERED
VOTER AS TO ANY PARTY AFFiLIATION THAT HE MAY WANT TO
AS SUME ?
A NO, SIR. LET ME EXPLAIN. THE TASK FORCE HAS
SIX SPECIAL REGISTRARS. THE REGISTRAR IS AT A FIXED
LOCATION. AND THE REST OF THE MEI.IBERS ARE CANVASSING
DOOR.TO DOOR ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO COME OUT TO WHERE WE
ARE SET UP AT
I CANNOT SAY WHAT. ,I S DONE OUT THERE. BUT WE
DO NOT ENCOURAGE ANY PARTY AFFILIATION.
a IN OTHER WORDS, YoU DQN'T--WHEN A PERSoN SAYS,
trwELL, I WOULD LIKE TO REGISTER, TT THERE IS NO COMMUNICA-
TION BETtr.'EEN THE REGISTRAR AND THE PERSON AS TO WHAT
PARTY AFFILIATION HE SHALL CHOOSE?
A NO MORE THAN GIVING HIM THE OPTION AS TO HIS
AFFILIATION HE WOULD LIKE TO ASSOCIATE WITH.
F P, O. lor 2116
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. t ArN oFFtCE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
a Hol^, Do you Do THAT? Do you JUST sAy, ,tyou
CAN BE EITHER A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT OR INDEPENDENT'I--
OR I F THERE I S ANY OTHER PARTY NORMALLY RECOGN TZED, THAT
ONE TOO?
A RIGHT, SIR.
A YOU GIVE THEM A CHOICE?
A AND EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT, YOU KNOW, \^'HEN YOU
DONIT REGISTER IN E.ITHER THE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC
PARTY, TF YOU ARE iNDEPENDENT QR UNAFFILIATED YOU CANNOT
VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES.
AND WHEN YOU TAKE PEOPLE TO THE POLLS, IS
THERE ANYTHING BETI,JEEN THE DRIVERS OF THE CONVEYANCE AND
THE VOTER AS TO HOW THE VOTE SHOULD BE CAST?
A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
A SO THAT THIS FACILITY IS OPEN TO ANYBODY THAT
IS REGISTERED FOR ANY PARTY AND OPEN TO ANYONE TO VOTE
FOR WHOMEVER HE PLEASES?
A CORRECT.
.JUDGE DUPREE: . ALL RIGHT. I JUST WANTE
TO KNOW HOI^J THE SYSTEM WORKED. THANK YOU.
EXAMINATION
BY JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
A DID I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THE CITY COUNCIL
FORM OF GOVERNMENT IO' CHANGED TO A WARD SYSTEM THAT THA'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
GAVE THE BLACK COMMUNITY.-OR THE FOLLOWING THAT THE
BLACK COMMUNITY BEGAN TO ELECT TWO COUNCIL MEMBERS RATHER
THAN ONE?
A RIGHT, SIR.
q I^,HEN DID THAT HAPPEN?
A tg77.
A AND BETWEEN WHAT PERIODS OF TIME DID YOU SAY
YOUR VOTER REGISTRATION EFFORT HAS BEEN GOING ON?
A SINCE I78 AS AN OFFICIAL TASK FORCE. PRIOR TO
THAT WE WAS A COMMITTEE EMPOWERED TO GO OUT AND TRY AND
STIMULATE VOTER REGISTRATION.
a HAVE YOU DETECTED ANY IMPROVED WILLIT..IGNESS ON
THE PART OF PEOPLE THAT YOU TRY.TO REGISTER TO REGISTER
FOLLOWING THE CHANGE TO THE WARD SYSTEM?
A I HAVE EXPERIENCED A LITTLE MORE INTEREST IN
THE.,POLITI CAL PROCTSS,' BECAUSE WE HAVE EXAMPLES TO POINT
TO OI\I THE COUNCIL.
A b,ELL, DOES THAT.REFLECT ITSELF IN ANY FIGURES
IN INCREASE IN REGISTRATION; OR IS IT JUST THE IMPRESSIONI
YOU HAVE?
A IT IS REFLECTED IN THE FIGURES.
A HOW I S THAT REFLECTED? HAVE YOU HAD A BETTER
RATE OF REGISTRATION FOLLOWING THAT THAN WAS GOING ON
BEFORE?
A WE HAD A_BETTER REGISTRATION AND ALSO A BETTERa
A P. O. Bor 2ar6s
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
TURNOUT OF THE VOTE, BECAUSE DISTRICT CAME UP AGAIN IN
179 AT THAT TIME. THE FIRST TIME IT PASSED BY 88 VOTES.
THE SECoND TiME IT PASSED By OVER 2,AOO.
A WHAT HAS BEEN THE EXPERIENCE WITHIN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY IN OFFERING CANDIDATES ON THE WARD BASIS? HAVE
THERE BEEN VIGOROUS RACES BETI,/EEN BLACKS IN THOSE I^'ARDS?
A YES. YES. I WAS TRYING TO THINK.
a I^/HAT HAS BEEI{ THE EXPERIENCE? HAVE TWO OR
THREE BLACK CANDIDATES BEEN RUNNING AGAINST EACH OTHER?
A THERE HAVE BEEN TWO RUNNING AGAINST, PLUS WE
HAVE A WHITE.
A WHAT HAD BEEN THE EXPERIENCE BEFORE THAT WITH
RESPECT TO THE NU'.IBER OF BLACK CANDIDATES WHO V'ERE
RUNNING IN THOSE I^'ARD AREAS WHEN THE ELECTIONS WERE AT
LARGE IN THE CITY?
. A WE ONLY HAD ONE RUNNING CITYWIDE. JUST ONE
PERSON OR Olt.IE OR TWO WOULD RUN AT LAP.GE FOR THE SEVEN
SEATS IN THE ENTIRE---
A (TNTTNPOSING) DO YOU RECALL WHETHER WITH
RESPECT TO THESE WARDS WHICH ARE NOW PREDOMINANTLY BLACK
I./HETHER BEFORE THE WARD SYSTEM I^'AS GONE TO THERE WERE
CANDIDATES--AT LARGE CANDIDATES--FOR THE CITY COUNCIL
RUNNING FROM THOSE SPECIFIC AREAS OF THE CITY?
A NO; THERE ',^IASN
I T.
A DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THAT? I
F P. O,8or iBr6!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCFIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
REALiZE THIS IS A QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE NOT HAD A
CHANCE TO PONDER. DO YOU KNOW SPECIFICALLY BLACK CANDI_
DATES WHO HAVE RUN FROM THESE NEW WARDS?
A UNDER THE DISTRICT SYSTEM?
a YES?
A STATE THE QUESTION AGAIN, SIR.
A WELL, I AM ,JUST ASKING IF YOU ACTUALLY KNOW OF
YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE THE BLACK CANDIDATES WHO HAVE BEEN
RUNNII.IG AGAINST EACH OTHER IN THESE WARDS FROM WHICH THE
CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS ARE I.{OW ELECTED IN THE CITY?
A YES.
A YOU ARE PERSONALLY AT.'ARE OF CONTESTS BETWEEN
BLACK CANDIDATES FROM THESE WARDS?
A CORRECT.
A AND YOU ARE PERSONALLY AWARE THAT BEFORE THE
WARD. SYSTEM WAS PUT INTO EFFECT THAT BLACK AT-LARGE CAN-
DIDATES DID NOT RUN FOR THE CITY COUNCIL FROM THOSE SAME
AREAS ?
A SENATOR ALEXANDER--HE WAS FROM A BLACK WARD-.
BLACK DISTRICT--BEFORE IT WAS REALLY A DISTP.ICT WHERE THE
GREATEST CONCENTRATION OF BLACKS RESIDE.
a WERE THERE OTHERS THAT YOU CAl.,l THINK OF WHO
RAN IN THOSE DAYS ON AN AT.LARGE BASIS FROM THOSE AREAS
WH I CH ARE NOlr, D I STR I CTS 0R WARDS ?
A COUNC ILMAN GANTT.
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.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : VERY I.,ELL.
.JUDGE DUPREE: ARE THE COUNCIL ELECTI0I.IS
HELD ON A PARTISANI BASIS OR ARE THEY NON-PARTISAN--YOUR
CANDIDATES? DO THEY RUN AS A MEMBER OF A PARTY ? ,
THE !^/ITNESS:
J UDGE BP. I TT :
OF A PARTY; YES, SIR.
HOW MANY MEI4BERS ARE
THERE IN THE COUNCIL NOI,J--CURRENTLY?
T!-IE WITNESS: l1--SEVEN FROM SEVEN
DISTRICTS AND FOUR RUN AT LARGE.
.JUDGE BR I.TT : AND FROM THE SEVEN DIS-
TRICTS, HOW MANY ARE THERE BLACK?
THE WITNESS: TWO,
JUDGE PHILL I PS : HOW MANY BLACKS I^IERE
THERE IMMEDIATELY BEFORE YOU I,{ENT TO THE I^TARD SYSTEM?
THE "/ I TNE SS : ONE..
. .JUDGE DUPREE : ANY MINORI TY PARTY
I.lEMBERS ON THAT COUNCI.L?
THE l^/I TNESS : ,- ON THE COUNIC I L; YES.
.JtJDGE PHfLLI'PS: DOES ANY OP OUR QUESTIol'l-
ING SUGGEST THE NEED FOR FURTHEP. QUESTIONS BY COUNSEL?
MR. LEOI..IARD: I HAVE JUST ONE, YOUR
HOl.lOR.
R E C R O S S - E XAM I.NAT I ON I2:I2 P.t',I
BY MR. LEONARD:
PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCBIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF t. O. lox 2lldl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
A MR. REID, THERE IS ONE BLACK ON THE MECKLEN_
BURG COUNCIL WHO IS ELECTED FROM A WARD; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO; TWO.
a rwo FRoM---
A (TNTTRPOSING) TROM TNT DISTRICTS.
A FROM ONE DISTRICT OR TWO SEPARATE DISTRICTS?
A TWO SEPARATE DISTRICTS.
A IS THERE ANOTHER BLACK ON THE COUNCIL?
A YES. THAT i S THE ONE ELECTED AT LARGE.
a so You No\^l HAVE TWO BLACKS ON THE COUNCIL FROM
DISTRICTS AND ONE AT LARGE?
A CORRECT.
a FoR A TOTAL OF THREE OUT OF 1 1 ?
A CORRECT.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE AIIY FURTHER
QUESTIONS PROMPTED BY' OUR QUESTIONING?
MS. GUINIER: NO, YOUR HONOR.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ^ ALL RIGHT, MR. REID.
THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
(wrtlre ss ExcusED. )
MS. \^IINNER: YOUR HONOR, AT THIS
POINT DEFEI.IDANTS HAVE ASKED I'F THEY MAY CALL B0B SPEARIIAi'I
OUT OF ORDER. AND I HAVE NO OBLIECTION TO THAT.
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : WELL/ WE \^,I LL BE DELI G
TO HAVE MR. SPEARMAN TESTIFY AT THIS TIME.
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(wnr RE UPoN,
ROBERT W. SPEARMAN
I^/AS CALLED AS A W I TNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TE ST I FI ED AS
FOLLOh/S : )
DIRECT EXAMINATION t2:15 p.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAI'1E AND ADDRESS?
A MY NAME IS ROBERT WORTHINGTON SPEARI'1AN. AND
MY ADDRESS IS 35OB ANDREWS LANE II'I RALEIGH.
UJHAT I S YOUR OCCUPAT ION?
A I AM AN ATTORNEY AND A PARTNER IN THE LAW FIRM
OF SANFORD, ADAMS, MCCULLOUGH t BEARD.
a woulD you .JUST BRIEFLY FOR THE RECORD PLEASE
STATE YOUR EDUCATlC}NAL BACKGROUND?
A I ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT
CHAPEL HILL. AND I GRADUATED THERE WITH AN A.B. DEGREE
IN 1965. AFTER THAT I ATTENDED QXFORD UNIVERSITY IN
ENGLAND. AND I RECEIVED A DEGREE THERE IN PHILOSOPHY OF
POLITICS AND ECONOMICS.-A B.A. DEGREE AND A MASTER'S
DEGREE. AFTER THAT I ATTENDED LA}J SCHOOL AT YALE FROM
1967 TO 1970. AND I RECEIVED MY LAW DEGREE IN 1970 FRoM
YALE.
A IN ADDITION TO YOUR ACTIVE PRACTICE OF LAW,
AS PART OF YOUR PROFESSIOII AND PP.OFESS IONAL ACTIVITIES
o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONAF P, O.8or itElaB
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
HAVE YOU ENGAGED IN ANY OTHER ACTIVITIES?
A WELL, I HAVE BEEN IN ENGAGED IN TI-IE PRACTICE
OF LAW IN RALEIGH SII.,ICE 1971. AND IN ADDITION TO LAI,J
PRACTICE, I HAVE BEE\I INVOLVED IN A NUMBER OF POLITICAL
AND GOVERNMENTAL ACTIVITIES. I SERVED AS--WOULD YOU LIKE
FOR ME TO RECOTJNT THOSE?
I WOULD LIKE TO CONCENTRATE FIRST ON ANY OTHER
PROFESS IONAL ACTIVI TY AS A LAI.JYER THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE
ENGAGED IN AS OPPOSED TO YOUR POLITICAL ACTIVITIES.
ALL RIGHT. I. HAVE BEEN IN PRIVA,TE LAW PRAC-
TicE SINCE 1971. FOR A PERIOD IN tg72 AND t973, I ALSO
SERVED AS A CONSULTANT TO THE CARNEGIE AND FORD FOUNDA-
TIONS TO WRiTE A REPORT ON THE SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAMS THAT
THE FORD AND CARNEGIE FOUNDATIONS HAD FUNDED WITH THE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND CONCERNING THE EFFORTS OF THE
FOUNDATIONS TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF BLACK ATTORNEYS IN
THE SOUTH. SO FOR A PERIOD OF ABOUT SIX I4ONTHS I SPENT A
LARGE AMOUNT OF MY TIME DOING THAT, TRAVELING AROUND TO
DIFFERENT SOUTHERN STATES.
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, MP.. SPEARMANT
VI.TAE IS ONE OF THE EXHIBI.TS. AND IF IT WILL EXPEDITE
THINGS, I DO NOT OBJECT TO ITS BEING iNTRODUCED.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : MR. LEONARD, YOU CAN TAKE
IT AS YOU CARE TO. WE HAVE TFiE VITAE. AND WE ALL
PROBABLY ARE SUFFI_CIENTLY AWARE, IF WE T,/ERE JURORS, OF
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
MR. SPEARMANI S QUALIFICATIONS.
MR. LEONARD: YOUR HONOR., WE DON'T
INTEND TO BELABOR HIS QUALIFICATIONS--.JUST BARELY ENOUGH
TO MOVE THE RECORD ALONG. I DONI T THINK THE LAST
ACTIVITY WAS. NECESSARILY ON THE VITAE. AND THAT MAY HAVE
BEEN I,JHAT SPARKED COUNSEL TO..--
JUDGE PHILLIPS: CTIITERPOSTruE) I,/ELL,
LET I S DON I T JOUST OVER THI S. YOU DO I^'HAT YOU T{ANT
'O:
AI.JD WE WILL TAKE THE TIME IT TAKES TO HEAR IT.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A IEFLY SUI,IMARIZE FOR THE COURT, MR. SPEARMAN,
IF YOU I^/OULD, YOUR POLITICAL ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE AND
IN WAKE COUNTY.
WELL, I SERVED SEVERAL TERMS AS A MEMBER OF
THE STATE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTTVE COMMITTEE. I HAVE SERVED
AS A PRECINCT OFFICER IN WAKE COUNTY. I \^IAS A DEMOCRATIC
PREC I NCT VICE CHAI RMAN I N SWJ FT CREEK PR,EC INCT. I. SERVE
ON A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT S.TATE DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEES.
I SERVED AS A DELEGATE TO THE 1980 DEMQCRATIC NATIONAL
CONVENTION. I SERVED AS LEGAL COUNSEL TO THE STATE
CARTER FOR PRESIDEI'.IT CAMPAIGN IN 1976.
I SERVED FROM 1979 TO 19,81 AS CHAIRMAN OF THE
WAKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY. I SERVED AS A VICE CHAIR-
MAN OF THE CORRECTIONS PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE NORTH
CAROLINA CRIME CONTROL--GOVERN0RT S CRIME CONTR0L
-
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COMMISSION. AND I SERVED AS A DELEGATE TO A NUMBEP. OF
OTHER DEMOCRATIC CONVENTIONS OF ONE SORT OR ANOTHER,
INCLUDING DEMOCRATIC STATE COI.IVENTIONS.
DO YOU NOI^J HOLD A POLITICAL APPOIIITMENT IN THE
STATE OF I.IORTH CAROLINA?
YES. I AM NOV' CHAIRI4AN OF THE I..IORTH CAROLINA
STATE ELECTIONS BOARD.
A DESCRIBE BRIEFLY WHAT THE FUNCTIONS OF THAT
BOARD ARE.
A WELL, THE NORTH CAROLINA ELECTIONS BOARD
SUPERVISES THE CONDUCT OF ELECTIONS TN IJORTH CAROLINA.
AND IT SUPERVISES THE WORK OF 1OO INDIVIDUAL COUNTY
ELECTIONS BOARDS. THERE IS A THREE-PERSON BOARD IN EACH
COUNTY. AND OUR FIVE.PERSON STATE BOARD SUPERVISES THE
WORK OF THE COUNTY BOARDS.
. WE ALSO FROM TI'ME TO TIME CONDUCT INVESTIGA-
TIONS AND HOLD HEARINGS ON CONTESTED ELECTION MATTERS
WHEN THE NEED ARISES.
WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A COUNTY
ELECTION BOARD AND THE STATE BOARD?
A WELL, ACTUALLY THE THREE PERSONS WHO ARE
MEMBERS OF EACH COUNTY BOARD ARE APPOINTED BY THE STATE
BOARD. TO CLEAR THAT UP .JUST A LITTLE BIT FURTHER, TI-TCsE
APPOINTMENTS ARE MADE BY THE STATE BOARD TO THE COUNTY
BOAP.DS AFTER RECOMMENDATIONS ARE RECEIVED FP.OM THE TWO
F 2. O.601 2ataB
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
STATE PARTY CHAIRJ[4EI.I--THE REPUBLICAI.] CHAIRMAN AND THE
DEMOCRATiC CHAIP.MAN.
THE NAI'IES ARE RECOMMENDED TO THE STATE POLITI-
CAL PARTY CHAIRI1EN BY THE COUNTY POLITICAL PARTY CHAIRIqEN
IN EACH OF THE COUNTIES AFTER CONSID5RATION BY THE COUNTY
PARTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES.
A SO THAT EACH COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS HAS
REPRESENTATIOI\I FROM BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES?
A YES. WHEN THE GOVERNOR IS DEMOCRATIC, TWO OF
THE THREE MEMBERS ON EACH COUNTY BOARD ARE NORMALLY
DEMOCRATIC. WHEN THE GOVERNOR IS REPUBLICAN, NORMALLY
IWO OF THE THREE ARE REPUBLICAN.
A IT DOESNIT HAPPEN VERY OFTEN. HOW MANY MEMBER
ARE THERE ON THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A THE STATE BOARD HAS FIVE I'4EMBERS.
. A WHO ARE THEY? AND WHAT ARE THEIR RACES?
A THE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD NOW ARE ELOREE ERWIN,
ll/HO IS A REPUBLICAN LADY" IROM CHARLOTTE WHO rS BLACK; MR.
b,ILLTAM MAqSH, r,rHo tS A DEMOCP.AT FROM DURHAM WHo IS BLACK
MR . ROBERT BROI^/N I NG, WHO I S A REPUBL I CAN FROM GREENVI LLE
WHO IS WHITE; MS. RUTH SAMASCO IS A LADY WHO fS A DEMO-
cRAT FROM HORSESHOE, NORTH.CAROLINA. AND SHE rS WHITE.
AND I AM THE FIFTH MEMBER OF THE BOAP.D. AND I AM A
DEMOCRAT.
A AND THEJ.4EMBERS ARE APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR
F P. O. 8or UIA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FOR A FOUR-YEAR TERM?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A DOES THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS MAINTAIN
FILES AND RECORDS AND CORRESPONDENCE, MEMORANDA, ET
CETERA OR OTHER DOCUMENTS RELATED TO ITS OFFICIAL
FUNCT I ONS ?
A YES; IT DOES.
A ARE YOU FAMILTAR WITH THE SYSTEM OF RECORD-
KEEPING IN THE KEEPII.IG OF THOSE FILES AND CORRESPONDENCE
AND MEMORANDA AND OTHER DOCUMENTS OF THE BOARD OF
ELE CT I ONS ?
A YES. I Al,4 FAMILIAR WITH IT.
A AND HAVE YOU TODAY AT MY REQUEST BROUGHT
VARIOUS DOCUMENTS FROM THOSE FILES WITH YOU?
A YES; I HAVE. AND THOSE, I BELIEVE, ARE
ARLEADY MARKED AS EXHIBITS AND IDENTIFIED IN THE PRE-
TRIAL ORDER. AND THE; COME FROM THE STATE BOARD FILES.
A AND THOSE EXHIBITS ARE MARKED DEFENDANTSI
EXHIBITS 1 THROUGH 16?
A YES.
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, WITH
THE EXCEPTION OF EXHIBIT 10 I HAVE GOING TO HAVE THE
WITNESS BRIEFLY IDENTIFY THE OTHER DOCUMENTS FOR PURPOSE
OF OFFERING. I DONIT KNOW WHETHER COUNSEL FOR THE
PLAINTIFF HAS OBJEC'TIONS TO THOSE DOCUMENTS OR NOT.tj
F P. O. Eor talas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
BY MR . LEOI\IARD:
a VJOULD yOU LOOK, I'lR . SPEARMAN, AT WHAT HAS BEEN
MARKED DEFENDANTS? EXHIBIT NUMBER 1 FOR IDENTIFICATION
AND.JUST GIVE US A VERY BP.IEF EXPLANATION OF THAT?
(orrruoarurs ExHIBIT No. l rr,AS
MAR.KED FOR IDENITIFICATiOI'I. )
YES. DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 1 IS A MCMORANDUI.4
FROM ALEX BROCK, OUR BOARD EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AND FROM
ME TO COUNTY BOARD MEI.4BERS AND SUPERVISORS CONCERNING OUR
STATE BOARDTS INTEREST IN THE INICREASE OF VOTER REGISTRA-
T,I ON IN I.IORTH CAROL I NA.
AND EXHIBIT 2?
(oqnruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. 2 wAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATtOtt. )
EXHIBIT 2 IS A MEMORANDUM FROM THE STATE BOARDA
S I G.NED BY
CONCERNING
REG I STER .
AND ON
}4E TO THE NORTH CAROLINA ELECTIONS BOARDS
VOTER REGiSTRATION AND WHERE PEP.SONS MAY
THE DATE ON EXHIBIT I l^lAS NOVEMBER 30, 1981,
EXHIBIT 2 DECE}1BER 1I+TH, '81?
Y5S. THAT IS P.IGHT.
EXHIBIT 3, PLEASE?
(nTTENORNTS EXHIBIT NO. 3 I^IAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A EX|_1I B I T 3_ I5 A MEMORANDUM DATED JA.NTJARY 2g ,
A
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PRECIS]ON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
1982, FROM
MEMBERS AND
YEAR VOTER
A EXHIBIT 6 IS
ORGANIZAT IONS OR PERSONS
ALEX BROCK AIJD FROM ME TO THE COUNTY BOARD
SUPERVISORS CONCERNII.IG OUR CITIZEN AWARENESS
REGI STRAT ION PROGRAM.
AND EXHIBIT 4?
(DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT No. 41^IAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATtOtt. )
A EXHIBIT I\IUMRER 4IS A COPY oF A LETTER WHICH
WAS SIGNED BY GOVERNOR HUNT AND SIGNED BY ME I.JHICH I^IAS
SENT TO A LARGE NUMBER OF PFOPLE INVITING THEM TO ATTEND
A SPECIAL VOTER REGISTRATION DAY IN RALEIGH AI']D A VOTER
REGISTRATION SEMINAR.
H EADED
P EOPLE
IT IS DATED FEBRUARY 18, 1982. AND IT IS
IIDEAR FRIEND.It IT WAS SENT TO SOME HUNDREDS OF
AND HXHIBIT 5?
(DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT NO. 5 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATTOITI. )
EXHIBIT 5 IS A PRESS RELEASE IS.SUED BY THE
STATE BOAP.D OF ELECTIOI.JS IN MARCH OF 1982 CONCERNING OUR
CITIZEN AV'ARENESS YEAR VOTER REGISTRATION PROGRAM.
6?
a
(DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS
MARKED FOR IDEI'!TIFICATION. )
A LIST WHERE THE I..IAMES OF THE
THAT HAVE A CHECK ARE GROUPS OR
F P. O.8or 2ttB
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PHECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PEOPLE I,JHO I./ERE I NVI TED TO THE SPEC IAL SEMI NAR AT]D DAY-
LONG PROGRAM OI.I VOTER REGISTRATTON THAT WE HELD IN THE
SPRING OF 1982. ALL OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE A
CHECK BESIDE THEM ON THIS LIST WERE INVITED TO THE
PROGRAM. I SHOULD SAY TI-IIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST OF
EVERY GROUP THAT \,'IAS INVITED TO THE PROGRAM. ALL THE
ONES HERE WITH A CHECK. WERE INVITED. BUT THERE WERE
OTHER GROUPS THAT I^/ERE INVITED AS WELL.
MIGHT I JUST CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT
THAT AT THE BEGiNNING OF THE THIRD PAGE THERE IS A SHEET
HEADED 'fMINORITy ORGANIZATIONS IN NORTH C,AROLINAT'' u/HICH
APPEARS TO BE A LIST OF THREE PAGES WITHOUT ANY CHECKS.
BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE CROSSED OFF. CAN YOU TELL US
WHO RECEIVED AND WHO DID NOT RECEI.VE---
A (INTT.RPOSiNG) AII RIGHT. I^'ITH RESPECT TO THE
LAST THREE PAGES OF THE EXHIBIT, EVERY NAME ON THE LAST
THREE PAGES TF.IAT DOES NOT HAVE A CHECK DID, II.I FACT,
RECEiVE AN INVITATION.
A TELL THE COURT ABOUT DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 7,
PLEASE.
(DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT NO. 7 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 7 IS A LETTER THAT I WROTE
ATID SENT TO EVERY CHAIRMAN OF THE COUI'ITY ELECTION BOARDS
rN NORTH CAROLTNA.
l*' rr IS DATED APRIL 28TH, 1982. ITto
F P. O. tor I'tlC!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENtx, ARtzo.,lA
I S ADDRESSED 'IDEAR BLA\IK, 'I BECAUSE THESE
PERSONALIZE.D TO EACH OF THE lOO CHAIRI,IAN.
LETTERS WERE
AND IT CON-
CERNS2 AGAII'1, THE srATE BoARD CITIzEN At,rAREt.tESS yEAR
REGISTRATION DRIVE.
AND I"/HAT IS DEFEI.IDANTS' EXHIBIT 8?
(oe nrNoRnrs EXFl I BI T No. 8 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATIOI.I. )
A DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 8 IS A MAI.IUAL ENTITLED
'f C I T I zEN AI\,ARENE SS yEAR, lgB2 ,tt WH I cH WAS pUBL I SHED By
THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS ON VOTER REGISTRATION
OPPORTUNITIES IN EACH OF THE lOO COUNTIES IN NORTH
CAROLINA. IT ALSO CONTAINS A LOT OF INFORMATION FOR
POLI T I CAL PART I ES AND C I VI C GROUPS ABOUT I.IHAT VOTER
REG I STRATI ON LAI.JS APE AND HOI^J THEY CAN ASS I ST AND PART I -
CIPATE IN VOTER REGISTRATIOI.I DRIVES.
EXHIBIT 9?
(orrrruoaNTs EXHIBIT No. 9 WAS
MAR]<ED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A EX}IIBIT NUMBER 9IS A MEMORANDUM CONCERI.IING A
PART 0F ouR cITIzEN A!^/AREI.,!ESS YEAR PRoGRAM. IT wAS
AUTHORED BY THE I'.IORTH CAROLINA AGENCY FOR PUBLIC TELE-
COMMUNICATIONS. OUR STATT BOARD AND THE TELECOMMUNICA_
TIONS AGENCY .JOINITLY PRODUCED AND SPONSORED A NUMBER OF
PUBLIC SERVICE AI'INOUNCEMENTS WHICH I^'ERE DISSEMINATED TO
ALL I'IORTH CAROLINA RADIO STATIONS ABOUT VOTER
F l. O. lor 2trA3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
5A4REG I STRATI ON.
A\D THIS IS A REPORT ON THAT PUBLIC SERVICF
ANNOUNCEMENT PROGRAM EXPLA I N I I.IG WHERE THE TAPES WERE USEI)
A D ID YOU ASK MS. }^'ING TO KEEP P.ECORDS AI.ID
COMPILE A REPORT FOR YOU AFTER THE PROGRAM?
A YES. WE h,ERE DOING THE PROGRAI'I TOGETHtrR. AI,ID
I ASKED HER To KEEP rHE RECoRDS'oF HotJ THE TAPE r^/AS usED
AND TO COI.4PILF THEM AND TO REPORT ON THE R,ESULTS. AI,ID
THAT IS WHAT THIS IS. IT IS HER REPORT TO US.
A AND EXHIBIT 1 1, PLEASE?
(orrrruoaurs EXHIBIT No. 11 r.JAS
MARKED FOR IDEIJTIFICATIOru. )
A EXHIBIT 11 IS A MEMORANDUM CONCERNING VOTER
REG I STRAT I OI'I AND NEW LEGI SLATI ON THAT WAS ADOPTED BY THE
GENERAL ASSE14BLy I N t982. I AUTHORED THE MEMORANDUM AI,ID
SENT IT TO ALL COUNTY ELECTION BOARDS.
a Ar.rD EXHIBTT izz
(orrmoaNTS EXt_rI B I T No. t2 t,AS
MARKED FoR IDENTIFI.CATIoNI. )
A EXHIBIT T2 IS A I"IEMORANDUM FROM I.1E TO ALL
couNTY ELECTIoN BOARDS DATED AUGUST 21, tg}z, r{HICH
CONCERNS THE STATS BOARD EFFORT TO MAKE REGISTRATION
AVA I LABLE I I.I D I FFER.ENT WORK PLACES AROUND NORTH CAROL I NA-
IN DIFFERENT BUSINESSES.
EXHIBIT 13, PLEASE?
OR
Ft P, O. Box 2!rA3
LJ R.btgft. Ndn C.,cIn. 2rott
412 7 5u5
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(OTrrruORrurS EXHI BIT NO. 13 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICAIION. )
A EXHIBIT 13 IS A PRESS RELEASE ISSI,,ED BY THE
STATE BOARD CONCERI'.IING THE REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES AT
BUS INESSES.
a AND EXHTBTT 14?
(orreruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. 14 WAS
I.4ARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A EXHIBIT 14 IS A COLLECTION OF STATISTICS ON
NORTH CAROLINA VOTER REGISTRATION. THE FIRST PAGE OF IT
ACTUALLY IS A SUI4MARY OF THE CHANGES IN P.EGISTRATIONI FROM
FEBRUARY 1982 TO OCTOBER 182. THE SECOND PAGE OF THAT
EXHIBIT IS THE INFORMATION ON REGISTRATION RATE AND LEVEL
CHA}IGES FRCI4 FEBRUARY I82 TO OCTOBER 182 FOR A NUMBER OF
SPECIFIC DIFFERENT COUNTIES WHICH ARE ENUMERATED THERE.
ANID THE OTHER PAGES OF THAT EXHIBIT ARE SIMPLY
BACKUP STATISTICAL TruNONMATION VJITH A COUNTY BREAKDOI.JN
FOR WHAT REGISTRATION AND POPULATION LEVELS WERE IN THE
BEGINNING OF I 82 AND BY THE TIME THE BOOKS CLOSED FOR THE
1982 FALL GENERAL ELECTION.
A DiD YOU PREPARE OR CAUSE TO BE PREPARED THE
FIRST TWO PAGES oF ExHIBIT 1I+?
A YES.
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a AND THOSE
THE DATA CONTAINED IN
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
ARE SUI4MARY EXHI BITS PREPARED FROM
,:. REI.IAINING PAGES OF THAT EXHIBIT
MA|N oFFtCE, RArEtcH, 832.908s
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENtX, ARtZO.IA
l-l P, O. Oor a6 I fr3
L.l ,l.htgh. Nodh Ct@iln. 2ilir
5,ii 0
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
P}IOENIX, ARIZONA
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a PLEASE IDEr',lTIFY EXHIBIT 15.
(DEFEND.T\NTS EXHIBIT I..Io. 15 }./AS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A EXHIBIT 15 IS A LETTER TI.IAT I I./ROTE ON BEHALF
OF THE STATE ELECTiONS BOAP.D TO GOVERNOR HUNT, LIEUTENANT
COVERNOR, GREEN, SPEAKER RAMSEY, THE ELECTION LAI^I CHAIRMAN
AND THE GEI.IERAL ASSEMBLY, IN WHIClJ I PASSED ON TO THESE
OFFICIALS THE SPECIFIC RECOMMEI.JDATIONS FOR NEVI LEGISLA-
TION THAT THE STATE ELECTION BOAR.D WAS EI'IDORSING AND
S.UBM I TT I NG TO THEM FOR THE I R CONS I DERAT I ON .
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL TAKE A RECESS
UNTIL 2:OO OTCLOCK
(rHE pp.ocEEDING vtAS REcESSED AT 72;30 p.M,, To
RECONVENE AT 2:00 P.M., THIS SAME DAY.)
F P, O. lor 2lret
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FURTHE R P ROCEED I NGS 2:OO P.I"I\
(wnrREUPON,
ROBERT W. SPEARMAN
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS NOITOWS:)
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 2:OO P.M.
(nr s umeo )
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MR. SPEARMAN, I BELIEVE YOU WERE ABOUT TO
IDENTIFY EXHIBIT NUMBER 16.
(oerrruOENTS EXHIBIT NO. 16 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A EXHIBIT 16 IS A ROSTER OF THE DI.FFERENT MEMBER
OF EACH OF THE lOO COUNTY BOARDS OF ELECTION IN THE 1OO
COUN.TIES IN NORTH CAROLINA*-THE CHAIRMAN, THE DEMOCRATIC
MEMBER AND THE REPUBL'tO* MEMBER.
AND ALSO MARKED ON THIS IS AN INDICATION
BESIDE THE NAMES OF THOSE MEMBERS WHO ARE BLACK.
A AND THEY ARE INDICATED BY THE CAPITAL LETTER
rrBrr?
A THERE IS A CAPITAL LETTER ITBII BESIDE THE NAME
OF BOARD MEMBERS WHO ARE BLACK BOARD MEI'IBERS.
A AND IN EACH CASE IT IS THE BLACK LETTER TIBII
TO THE LEFT OF THE NAME?
.O
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(XX
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES.
A SINCE YOU HAD THAT EXHIBIT ORIGINALLY PREPAREI)
AND SUBMITTFD, HAVE YOU LEARNED OF ADDITIONAL MEMBERS OF
THOSE BOARDS WHO ARE BLACK?
A YES.
A WE WILL DO THAT AFTER WE OFFER THE DOCUMENT.
A ALL RIGHT.
a Now, woulD You IDENTIFY FOR ME, PLEASE,
DEFENDANTST EXHIBIT 35?
(orrruoENrs EXHIBIT NO. 35 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A I AM NOT SURE T HAVE A COPY OF THAT. 35 IS A
COPY OF MY RESUME.
a Do You HAVE A COPY OF DEFENDANTST EXHIBTT 4l
IN FRONT OF YOU?
(orrrruoeruts EXHIBIT No. 4i t^,AS
MARKED FOR IDENTI FICATION. )
A NO; I DO NOT. -
MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE WIT-
NESS, I F THE COURT PLEASE?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY APPROACH.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a I HAND YOU A COPY OF THAT AND ALSo 42, AND ASK
YOU 'FI RST OF ALL TO PLEASE IDENTIFY 41?
A YES. EXHIBIT 41 IS A MEMORANDUM SENT OUT BY
F P. O. gor 2atB
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i,i:CCISION HEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-a571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS THAT CAME FROM OUR RI-:CORDS)
IT IS DATED DECEMBER 28TH, 1970.
(ornrruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. I+2 WAS
MARKED FoR IDENTIFICATIoII. )
AND DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 42 IS ANOTHER MEMORAN-
DUM, CERTAIN RULES AND ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES ADOPTET)
BY THE STATE BOARD TO BE IN EFFECT FOR THE NOVEMBER 1972
GENERAL ELECTION. THAT, TOO, IS SIMPLY PART OF THE STATE
BOARD OF ELECTION RECORDS.
DID THOSE TWO DOCUMENTS COME FROM THE FILES
OF THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A YES.
q ARE THOSE DOCUMENTS THE TYPES AND KINDS OF
DOCUMENTS THAT ARE KEPT BY THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A YES; THEY ARE.
, MR. LEONARD:
I DON ' T KNOW WHAT O B.JTCT I ONS
DOCUMENTS. BUT I WOULD LIKE
EVIDENCE DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT
RESUME.
MS. WINNER:
ANY OF THE EXHIBITS.
IF THE COURT PLEASE,
THERE WILL BE TO THESE
FIRST OF ALL TO OFFER INTO
35, WHICH IS MR. SPEARMANTS
OB.JECTION TO
COURT PLEASE,
1 THROUGH 9,
I HAVE NO
MR. LEONARD: AND IF THE
I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER DEFENDANTST EXHIBITS
11 THROUGH 16 AND 41_AND 42 INTO EVIDENCE.
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PRECISION BEPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THEY AR.E ADMITTED WITH-
OUT OBJECTION.
(orrrNonNrs EXHI BIT I.IoS. 1 THRoUGH
9 , 1 1 THROUGH 16, 35 , l+ 1 AND 42
WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
MR. LEOIIIARD : AND DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT
35, WHICH I UNDERSTAI'|D PLAINTiFFS---
L,UDGE PHILLIPS: (TruTTNPOSING) EXHIBIT 35
IS ADMITTED WITHOUT OBJECTION.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MR. SPEARMAN, DID YOU AT SOME POINT IN TIME
HAVE DISCUSSIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE SiNTT BOARD OF
ELECTIONS SEEKING TO II{CREASE VOTER REGiSTRATION IN THE
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES.
A TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHEN THOSE STARTED AND
WHO WAS I NVOLVED
A WELL, I BECAME A I'4EMBER OF THE STATE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS 0N NOVEMBER gTH, 1981. SHORTLy',BEFORE THAT, I
HAD BEEN ASKED BY GOVERNOR HUNT I.F I WOULD BE I^'ILLING TO
SERVE IN THAT POSITION. AND I HAD TQLD HIM THAT I WOULD
BE AT'ID I WAS INTF.RESTED IN IT.
AND I TALKED WITH HIM SOME AT THAT POI.NT ABOUT
WHAT I PERCEIVED TO BE A NEED TO TRY.TO INCREASE VOTER
REGISTRATION LEVELS ]N NORTH CAROLINA.
F P. O. Bor 2!lG!
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THEI'I THE BOARD MEMBERS WERE SWORN IN ON
NOVEMBER grH, igB1. AND THE TOPIC OF VOTER REGISTRATION
WAS ONE OF THE FIRST ITEMS DISCUSSED AT THE FIRST
MEETING ON THAT DAY WITHIN THE BOARD MEETING.
A DO YOU RECALL WHAT THE VOTER REGISTRATION
STATISTICS FOR WHITES AND NON.WHITES WERE IN THE STATE IN
NOVEMBER OF 1981?
A WELL, OF PERSONS ELIGIBLE TO REGISTER,
APPROXIMATELY 58.6 PERCENT WERE, IN FACT, REGISTERED AT
THAT TIME. AND I BELIEVE SOME OF THE EXHIBITS HAVE THAT
BROKEN DOWN BY RACE. THE PERCENTAGE OF ELIGIBLE PERSONS
REGISTERED WAS HIGHER AMONG THE WHITE
'O'UI.O"ON
THAN
AMONG THE BLACK POPULATION.
APPROXIMATELY 63 PERCENT OF VOTING AGE WHITES
VJERE REGISTERED, WHEREAS APPROXIMATELY 42"7 PERCENT OF
VOTING AGE BLACKS WERE.REGISTERED.
A WHAT OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF THAT NOVEMBER
1981 BOARD MEETING?
A WELL, AT THE FIRST BOARD MEETING THE BOARD
MEMBERS DI SCUSSED WHAT THE STATI STICS WERE FOR I'{ORTH
CAROLINA VOTER REGISTRATION. AND WE ADOPTED AS A PRINCI-
PAL GOAL AND POLICY TRYING TO INCREASE THE OPPORTUNITIES
FOR VOTER REGISTRATION AND TO INCREASE THE LEVELS OF
VOTER REGISTRATION IN NORTH CAROLINA.
THAT WAS FIRST MADE AS A BASIC POLICY DECISION
F F. O.8or 1|61(t
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BY THE BOARD. AND THEN VERY SHORTLY AFTER THAT, I
COMMUNICATED THAT DECISION TO ALL OUR lOO COUNTY ELECTIOI'
BOARDS AROUND THE STATE.
A WHAT RELATIONSHIP DOES EXHIBIT NUMBER 1 HAVE
TO THAT COMMUNICATION?
AWELL,EXHIBITNUMBERlISTHEMEMORANDUMTHAT
I SENT ON NOVEMBER 30, 1981, }IHICH BEGINS BY EXPLAINING
TO THE COUNTY BOARDS THAT THE STATE BOARD HAD ADOPTED THE
GOAL OF INCREASED REG]STRATION AS A TOP PRIORITY.
AND THEN IT GOES ON TO EXFLAIN TO THE LOCAL
BOARDS THAT \^'E WANTED THEM TO ASSIST AND COOPERATE WITH
us IN THAT PP.OTJECT; AND THAT WE WANTEO T*aU tu MAKE ANY
SUGGESTIONS THEY COULD TO USI.AS TO PARTICULAR CHANGES IN
RULES,
RUN TO
POLICIES OR PARTI'CULAR PROGRAMS THAT COULD BE
INCREASE REGISTRATION LEVELS.
IN THE SECOND PAGE OF THE MEMORANDUM I' MADE A
NUMBER OF PARTICULAR SUGGESTI'ONS TQ THE LOCAL BOARDS AS
TO THINGS THEY COULD DO RIftIT AI'IAY, INCLUDING RUNNING
LOCAL PUBLIC SERVICE SPOTS, HAVING PUBLIC REGISTRATION I
LIBRARIES AND USING REGiSTRATION OFFTCIALS TO GO OUT INT
THE COMMUNITY TO, IN FACT, REGISTER PEOPLE TO VOTE'
aDoYo'.JRECALLiFTHEREWEREANYPARTICULAR
PRoBLEMS WHICH IIlPEDED REGISTRATIoN oF VoTERS?
A',^,ELL,ONEPROBLEMWASTHATINSOI4ECOUNTIES
REGISTRARS AND JUDG1S OF ELECTIONS WERE PERMITTED TO
E
PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
\o
P. O. gd 2AlN
Ll R.bioh, No^h CrrolM 27611
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
R.EGISTER PERSONS TO VOTE ONLY WITHIN THE PARTICULAR
PREC INCT WHERE THE REGISTRAR LIVED. IN OTHER IVORDS, LIKE
THE REGiSTRAR FOR PRECINCT 1 COULD ONLY REGISTER VOTERS
IN PRECINCT NUMBER 1.
THERE WERE VARIOUS COUNTIES THAT HAD RESTRIC-
TIONS OF THAT SORT. AND THAT 1^IAS A PROBLEM IN THAT IT
MADE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND REGISTRATION OFFI-
CIALS WHO COULD REGISTER ANYWHERE \^'ITHIN A COUNTY. SO
I N FACT, ONE OF THE EARLY THINGS I DID--I THII.IK THAT I S
REFLECTED IN DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 2 ABOUT A MONTH LATER--
WAS I I^IROTE TO ALL OF THE COUNTY ELECTION BOARDS POINTING
OUT TO THEM THAT UNDER STATE LAW ANY REGISTRAR OR ANY
.JUDGE OF ELECTIONS COULD REGISTER VOTERS ANYWHERF. WITHIN
A COUNTY UNLESS THE COUNTY. BOARD HAD RESTRICTED THAT
PERSONI S AUTHORITY.
STAT E
SUCH
AND THEN 1 FURTHER TOLD THEM THAT WE, THE
BOARD, STRONGLY.ENCOURAGED THE COUNTIES TO REMOVE
RESTRICTIONS
AND DID YOU MAKE SUBSEQUEI'IT TO THAT TIME ANY
PARTICULAR OR SPECIAL EFFORT WI'TH RESPECT TO THE OVERALL
QUESTION OF INCREASING REGISTRATION IN THE STATE?
A YES; WE DID. THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD FROM THE
VERY END OF'81 AND THE BEGINNING OF 1982 THROUGH THE
CLOSE OF THE REGISTRATIOI'I BOOKS IN OCTOBER 1982, WE RAN
A RATHER COMPREHENSIVE PROGRAM, THE NAME OF I'/HICH I^JAS
o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CITIZEN AWARENESS YEAR, IN WHICH WE ENGAGED IN A NUMBER
OF DIFFERENT EFFORTS TO RAISE VOTER REGISTRATION LEVELS
IN NORTH CAROLINA AND TO INTCREASE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR
VOTER REGISTRATION IN THE STATE.
A COULD YOU IDENTIFY THAT EFFORT AS IT RELATES
EXHIBIT 3?
A YES. EXHIBIT 3 IS ANOTHER MEMORANDUM TO THE
COUNTY BOARDS AND SUPERVISORS FROM THE STATE BOARD. AND
THAT EXPLAINED TO THEM THAT AT THE STATE BOARDIS REQUEST
GOVERNOR HUNT HAD DESIGNATED 1982 AS A CITIZEN A},/ARENESS
YEAR, IN WHICH A MAXIMUM EFFORT WOULD BE MADE TO INCREASE
VOTER REGISTRATION.
THE MEIqORANDUM WENT ON TO EXPLAIN THAT THERE
WOULD BE TWO PRIME PERIODS OF PRINCIPAL EFFORT--ONE
DURI.NG THE PERIOD BEFORE THE PRIMARY ELECTION, THE OTHER
I N TH.E FALL BEFORE THE GENERAL ELECTION. IT EXPLAINED
THAT THE EFFORT WAS TO U' NON-PARTISAN AND THAT \^IE I4ERE
INVITING ALL POLITICAL PARTIES AND CIVIC GROUPS TO
PARTICIPATE IN IT; AND THAT THE TWO MAIN THINGS WE WERE
TRYING TO DO.-FIRST WAS TO SIMPLY PUBLICTZE AS WIDELY AS
I'JE COULD THE EXI STING REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES. THE
SECOND WAS TO CREATE NEW REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES FOR
PEOPLE.
ANID THE MEMORANDUM WENT ON TO DESCRIBE A
NUMBER OF PARTICULAP. I'ROGRAMS THAT COUNTY BOARDS COULD
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONAF P. O. aor 2'iaa
LJ f.l.b,r. Noidt c.ro,til zrart
UNDERTAKE AND THAT WE ENCOURAGED THEM TO UNDERTAKE,
INCLUDING SENDING REGISTRARS OUT TO VARIOUS PLACES IN
THE COMMUNITY.
I POINTED OUT TO THEM IN THE MEMORANDUM THAT
ALTHOUGH THE SITUATION VARIED IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE
STATE THAT VERY FREQUENTLY GROUPS WITH LOW REGISTRATION
LEVELS INCLUDED ELDERLY CITIZENS AND YOUNG PERSONS AND
I'lINORITY GROUPS. AND THEN I.SUGGESTED THAT THE COUNTY
BOARDS AND THEIR PERSONNEL USE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT OUT.
REACH TECHNIQUES TO GET OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY TO INCREAS
REGI STRATION LEVELS.
THOSE ARE LAID OUT IN THE MF.MO. BUT IT
INCLUDED THINGS SUCH AS RUNNI.NG REGTSTRATION DRIVES IN
SHQPPING CENTERS, HAVING REGISTRARS GO TNTO PUBLIC HIGH
SCHOOLS,, SENDING REGISTRARS OR SPECIAL COMMISSIONERS TO
RESI.DENTIAL AREAS WHERE REGISTRATION WAS LOW, SUPPLYING
REGISTRARS FOR CIVIC
'i"INGS
OR PICNTCS. IN OTHER WORDS
WHENEVER A GROUP WANTED A REGISTRAR TO COME TO, SAY, A
cHuRcH MEETING OR A PICNIC, I TOLD THE LOCAL BOARDS TO
PLEASE HELP THE GROUPS FIND THE REGI'STRARS AND GE'T THEM
TO THE OCCASION SO THEY COULD ASSIST WITH THE REGISTRATI
A AND THAT MEMORANDUM AND THAT ACTIVITY TOOK
PLACE ON OR ABOUT.JANUARY 29TH'OF 1982?
A YES. THAT \.'AS WHEN IT WAS.-THAT WAS THE FIRST
STEP. AND THAT REALLY .JUST ANNOUNCED THE BASIC PROGRAM.o
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PREC!SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TO ALL THE COUNTY BOARDS AND POINTED OUT TO THEM THE
KINDS OF ACTIVITIES THAT WE WANTED THEM TO UNDERTAKE.
AS THE YEAR WENT ON, WE REALLY DID A NUMBER OF
OTHER THINGS. THE NEXT THING, WHICH I GUESS WAS AT ABOUT
THE SAME TIME--WE HAD A SEMINAR IN WINSTON-SALEM FOR ALL
THE COUI.,ITY ELECTION BOARDS. AND I SPOKE TO THE GROUP THE
ABOUT VOTEP. REGISTRATION. AND I INVITED THE GOVERNOR TO
COME SPEAK. AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF VOTER
REGISTRATION. THAT WAS AT OUR JAI'JUARY SEMINAR.
THEN 1^'E SET UP A SPECIAL VOTER REGISTRATION DA
IN RALEIGH. I THINK I REFERRED TO THAT EARLIER I'N MY
TESTIMONY. AND TO THAT OCCASION WE I.NVITED COUNTY ELECTI
BOARD MEMBERS, CHAIRMEN OF THE RESPECTIVE POLITICAL PAR-
TIES AND A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT CIVIC GROUPS AND ORGANIZA-
TIONS TO COI'IE TO RALEIGH FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE
CITIZEN AWARENESS YEAR, WHICH WAS HELD OVER IN THE OLD
STATE CAPITOL. AND THEN THERE WAS A LUNCHEON AT THE
GOVERNORIS MANSION.
AND THEI.I DURI'NG THE AFTERNOON WE HELD A
SEMINAR FOR BOTH THE BOARD MEMBERS AND THE POLITI'CAL
PARTIES AND THE DIFFERENT GROUPS PARTICIPATINq, OUTLINING
FOR THEM THE REQUIREMENTS OF r.lORTH CARoLINA REGI'STRATION
LAW AND MORE PARTICULARLY MAKING SPECIFIC SUGGESTIONS BO
TO THE ELECTIOI.J BOARD PEOPLE AND TO THE CIVIC GROUPS AND
POLITICAL PARTIES T./HO VJERE THERE AS TO I''HAT THEY COULD DO
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING,INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AND TJHAT WE .REQUESTI]D THAT THEY DO DO iN ORDER TO IN_
CREASE REGI STRATION.
DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 4 IS THE COPY OF THE
LETTER WHICH THE GOVERNOR SIGNED AND WHICH I SIGNED,
WHICH WE SENT OUT TO THE VARIOUS ELECTION BOARDS AND TO
THE POLiTICAL PARTIES AND TO THE CIVIC GROUPS INVITING
THEM TO PARTICIPATE TN REALLY THE KICKOFF OF THE CITIZEN
AWARENESS YEAR EFFORT, WHICH WAS IN APRIL OF 1982.
A AND DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 5 IS A PRESS RELEASE
WITH RESPECT TO THAT EFFORT?
A THAT IS RIGHT. IT, AGAIN, SI}4PLY DESCRIBES TH
EFFORT THAT WE WERE UNDERTAKING AND EXPLAINS THE DIFFEREN
EVENTS WHICH WERE GOING TO BE HELD ON APRIL THE BTH WHEN
WE HAD THE PEOPLE I.NVITED TO RALEIGH FROM AROUND THE
S TATE .
. a IN ADDITION TO THE pEOpLE WHO I^IERE INVITED AS
IS REFLECTED ON DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 6,.JUST TELL THE COUR
I^'HAT OTHER BROAD CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE WERE INViTED.
A }.JELL, THE MEMBERS OF ELECTIONS BOARDS WERE
INVITED. THE COUNTY CHAIRMEN OF REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATI
POLITICAL PARTIES WERE INVI.TED. AND THEN A VERY LARGE
NUMBER OF GROUPS WHICH HAD ANY KIND OF POLITICAL INTEREST
AND WHICH WE FELT MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN REGISTRATION
WERE INVITED--A NUMBER OF PARTICULARLY THE PREDOMINANTLY
BLACK GROUPS THAT ARE REFLECTED ON DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 6.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.90S5
779.3619 876.1571
PI,IOENIX, ARIZONA
BUT THERE I^/ERE L ITERALLY DOZENS OF OTHER GROUPS I NVI TED
AS WELL THAT ARE NOT REFLECTED ON THIS EXHIRIT. BUT IT
INCLUDED EVERYTHI}.IG FROM CHAI4BER OF COMMERCE TYPE-GROUPS
AND BUSINESS-TYPE GROUPS TO ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS TO JUST
ABOUT ANY ENTITY WHICH T,'E FELT WOULD HAVE AN INTEREST IN
REGISTRATION.
WHAT WAS THE TURNOUT FOR THAT MEETING ON APRIL
8TH?
A I FRAI.IKLY DON I T REMEMBER THE EXACT COUNT. BUT
WE HAD SEVERAL HUNDRED PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH AS I REMEMBER
THE WEATHER TURNED VERY BAD THAT DAY AND WE GOT AN APRIL
SNOW WHICH HELD DOWN THE ATTENDANCE SOMEWHAT, ESPECIALLY
FROM IHE WEST. BUT WE STILL HAD SEVERAL HUNDRED PEOPLE
AT THE OCCASION.
A DiD YOU MAKE ANY PARTICULAR EFFORT THAT DAY TO
IDENTIFY REPRESENTATION FROM THE VARIOUS BLACK GROUPS IN
THE STATE?
WE HAVE THAT IN OUR RECORDS BACK AT THE STATE
ELECTIONS BOARD. I. FRANKLY CANTT TELL YOU THE ANSWER TO
THAT, OTHER THAN TELLING YQU THERE WAS A VERY GOOD TURNO
FROI'I ALL THE GROUPS WE INVITED.-DEMOCRATIC, REPUBLICAN
AND CERTAINLY FROM THE DI FFERENT BLACK GROUPS WHO WERE
INVITED.
A ALL RIGHT. NOW, RELATE TO EXHIBIT 7, WHAT \^'A
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT IN THE CITIZENS AWARENESS PRO
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A
SEMINAR
UP 1^I I TH
THE},I TO
WELL, AFTER WE HAD HAD THE PROGRAI'4 AND THE
ON APRIL THE BTH, I WANTED TO BE SURE TO FOLLO\^I
ALL THE COUNTY BOARDS TO CONTINUE TO ENCOURAGE
ENGAGE IN THESE REGISTRATION EFFORTS.
DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 7 IS A PROTOTYPE COPY OF A
LETTER THAT I WROTE TO EACH OF THE lOO CHAIRMEN IN EACH
OF THE 1OO COUNTTES. I WROTE AN INDIVIDUAL LETTER TO EAC
ONE STATING IN IT WHAT I,IE HOPED THEY WOULD DO BY WAY OF
INCREASING REGISTRATiON, TALKING TO THEM ABOUT WHAT THEIR
CURRENT REGTSTRATI'ON RATE WAS AND THE KIND OF INCREASE
THAT WE HOPED THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO BRING ABOUT.
AND IT ALSO iNCLUDES, AGAIN, A NU|4BER OF
SPECIFIC PIECES OF ADVTCE AS TO WHAT WE WOULD LIKE FOR
THEM TO DO, ONE OF WHICH WAS THAT ANY COUNTY BOARDS THAT
STI LL HAD THEM, I,JE REQUESTED THAT THEY ELIMII'IATE ANY
COUNTY BOARD RULES WHICH RESTRICTED THE PLACES WHERE
JUDGES, REGISTRARS OR SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMI4ISSIONERS
COULD REGISTER VOTERS. AND.THAT WAS SENT OUT AT THE END
OF APRI.L TO THE 1OO COUNTY BOARDS.
AND BRIEFLY DESCRTBE WHAT DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT
8 IS--NOT THE DESCRIPTION, BUT THE DTSTRIBUTION OF IT,
ALL RIGHT. DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT B, I^,HICH IS
THE CITI ZEN A\^/ARENESS YEAR MANUAL, CONTAINS EXTENSIVE
REGISTRATION INFORMATION FOR EACH COUNTY IN NORTH CARO-
LINA, INCLUDING A SYNOPSTS OF VQTER REGISTRATION LAW AND
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DI FFERENT PROGRAMS AI',ID TECHN IQUES THAT CAN BE USED TO
INCREASE REGI STRATION.
IN TERMS OF DISTRIBUTION, THIS WAS SENT TO ALL
THE COUNTY ELECTION BOARDS. LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM WERE
SUPPLIED TO POLITICAL PARTIES. AND LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM
WERE SUPPLIED TO ANY GROUPS THAT HAD AN INTEREST IN
REGISTRATION. AS I RECALL, WE PRINTED A TOTAL OF 2,000
OF THEM. AND THOSE WERE ALL DISTRIBUTED.
aYoUHAVEPREVIoUSLYTESTIFIEDTHATEXHIBIT9
IT'AS A REPORT YOU RECETVED FROM LEE WING FROM THE NORTH
CAROLINA AGENCY FOR PUBLiC TELECOMMUNICATIONS. AND THAT
SIMPLY SETS OUT HER REPORT TO YOU AS TO WHERE THE VARIOUS
PUBLIC SERVI CE ANNOUNCEMENTS.*AND THAT I'S WHAT 'IPSAII
MEANS; ISN'T IT--t'PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTT!?
AYES.'IPSA''IS.t'PUBLIcSERVICEANNoUNCEMENTS.''
aANDTHATSIMPLYSHoWSWHEREITI^,ASAIREDAND
THE NUMBER OF TIMES; CORRECT?
AYES.WHATTHATJ^JASISWEWANTEDToHAVEPUBLI
SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS ON ALL THE NORTH CAROLINA RADIO
STATIoNS.SoINCoNJUNCTIoNWITHTHEPUBLICTELECoMMUNI_
CATIONS AGENCY }..lE PREPARED THE ANNOUNCEMENTS HERE IN
RALEIGH AND THEN HAD THEM DI'STRIBUTED TO THE STATIONS
AROUND THE STATE. AND THAT EXHIBIT IS A REPORT ON HOW
THOSE UJERE USED.
AI,IoNGoTHERTHINGS,WHENwEI^,EREDoII.IGTHATWE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.d571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
KNEW THAT TWO OF THE GROUPS WHERE REGISTRATION LEVELS
WERE RELATIVELY LOW WERE AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE AND AMONG
BLACK CITI ZENS. SO WHEN WE I.JERE DOING THE TAPES, WE HAD
SOME OF THE PSA TAPES DONE BY 18-YEAR-OLDS OR BY STUDENTS
AND OTHERS DONE BY BLACKS. AND THEN WE DISTRIBUTED ALL
OF THESE TO THE RADIO STATIONS.
A DID YOU DO ANY MONITORING OF THE EFFECTS OF
THAT CAMPAIGN?
WELL, THERE WOULD REALLY BE TWO KINDS OF
MONITORING WE DID OF THE RESULTS OF THE CAMPAIGN. ONE
WOULD BE SIMPLY WHERE THE SPOTS WERE PLAYED. AND I THINK
THAT IS ACCURATELY REFLECTED IN THE EXHIBIT ITSELF--ON
DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 9. THE LAST PAGE OF THAT SHOWS THE
COVERAGE OF THE SPOTS. AND AS ONE CAN SEE FROM EXAMINING
IT, IT PRETTY WELL COVERED THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.
. THIS IS SIM.P.LY. BASED ON THE REPORTS BACK TO US
FROM THE RADIO STATIONS, I,,HICH MEANS THAT FRANKLY THERE
UNDOUBTEDLY WERE A NUMBER OF OTHER RADIO STATIONS WHO
RECEIVED AND PLAYED THE SPOTS BUT DIDN'T NECESSARILY
REPORT THAT TO US. SO IN TERMS OF THE MONITORING OF THE
USE, THAT IS REALLY SHOWN ON THE COVERAGE MAP THAT IS ON
THE BACK OF THE EXHIBIT.
IT I S OBVIOUSLY MUCH MORE DI FFI.CULT TO DETER=
MINE WHAT PRECISE IMPACT THE RADIO SPOTS MAY HAVE HAD UP
REGISTRATION. ON THAT I CAN ONLY SAY THAT WE CERTAINLY
F P, O. tor 2ata6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
RECEIVED A LOT OF FAVORABLE REPORTS BACK ABOUT THEM.
AND DURING THE COURSE OF THE WHOLE CITIZEN AI^IARENESS YEAR
PRO.JECT, WE CERTAINLY HAD A VERY SIZABLE INCREASE IN
REGISTRATION. I THINK THE SPOTS WERE ONE USEFUL TOOL IN
THAT
A AND I ASKED YOU TO .JUST SURVEY YOUR FILES IN
ORDER TO REFRESH YOUR OWN RECOLLECTION HERE TODAY AS TO
A FEI^' OF THE SAMPLES OF WHAT YOU RECEIVED BY WAY OF THE
IMPACT OF THE PROGRAM. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU HAVE
PULLED SOME LETTERS AND COMMUNICATIONS FROM YOUR FILES?
MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO THAT. THOSE
WERE REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENT.
MR. LEONARD:
FOUNDATION FOR lr, couNSEL.
I AM GOING TO LAY A
BY MR. LEONARD:
a DID YOU DO. THAT?
A YES.
A CAN YOU RECALL SPECTFICALLY WITHOUT SOME
ASSISTANCE FROM THOSE DOCUMENTS WHAT SOME OF THE COMMENTS
WERE ABOUT THE OVERALL PROGRAM?
AYES.IcANCERTAINLYRECALLANDRECoUNTIT
TO THE COURT MUCH MORE ACCURATELY IF I COULD REFER TO
WHAT IS DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 10, WHI'CH ARE MY RECORDS OF
COMMUNICATIONS I^IITH COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARDS ABOUT THIS
PROGRAM25
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A WOULD YOU JUST BRIEFLY FROM THAT CO}4PILATION
OF DOCUMENTS FROM YOUR RECORDS WHICH YOU PULLED, BRIEFLY
TELL THE COURT WHAT SOME OF THE RESULTS WERE?
MS. WINNER: I OB.JECT BOTH TO THE
HEARSAY NATURE OF IT AND TO THE RELEVANCE. WHEN THEY WE
ON EXHIBIT LIST, I HAD INDICATED A NUMBER OF HEARSAY
OBJECTIONS AND A NUMBER OF RELEVANCE EXCEPTIONS SINCE
MOST OF THEM DO NOT COME FROM COUNTiES THAT WE ARE
CONCERNED WITH HERE. AND ALL OF THEM ARE HEARSAY REPORTS
OF WHAT SOMEBODY HAS TOLD MR. SPEARMAN THAT THEY DID.
UDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD, IT IS A
LiTTLE HARD TO RULE ON A HEARSAY OBJECTION TO A DOCUMENT
V]HOSE IDENTITY IS NOT EVEN KNOWN TO US. BUT IT SEEMS TO
ME THERE MUST CERTAINLY BE SOME BASIS FOR THAT OBJECTION.
AS I UNDERSTAND, THE DOCUMENTS IN QUESTION
PURPORT TO BE REPORTS PROM OTHER PERSONS TO MR. SPEARMAN
AS TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, WHICH I ASSUME IS A MATTER
SOUGHT TO BE PROVED. AI4 I WRONG IN MY ASSESSMENT OF THE
PROBLEM?
MR. LEONARD: NOT IN WHAT IS SOUGHT TO
BE PROVED, IF THE COURT PLEASE. MAYBE IF I COULD ASK THE
WITNESS A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS?
BY MR. LEONARD:
aDIDYoUATS0METIMEAFTERTHECITIZENSA!-IARE-
NESS PROGRAM I^JAS ONGOING REGIN TO RECEIVE REPORTS FROM
F P. O. Bor 2tlcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SUPERINTENDENTS OF ELECTIONS AND MEMBERS OF COUNTY
ELECTIONS BOARDS THROUGHOUT THE STATE?
A YES. IN THE EXHIBITS I HAVE EARLIER IDENTi-
FIED, I SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED THE COUNTY BOARDS TO REPOR
TO ME ON THEIR REGiSTRATION EFFORTS. AND IN CARRYING OUT
MY JOB AS CHAIRI4AN OF THE ELECTIONS BOARD, I COMMUNICATED
I.'ITH THE SUPERVISORS AND WITH THE MEMBERS OF THE COUNTY
ELECTIONS BOARDS AROUND THE STATE AND ASKED THEM AS PART
OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AS COUNTY BOARDS TO REPORT BACK T
ME ON THEIR ELECTION EFFORTS.
AND A LARGE NUMBER OF THEM DID SO--SOME IN
WRITING, SOME IN PERSON AND SOME BY TELEPHONE.
a
A
a
EXA}4PLE S
TO YOU?
DID YOU MAiNTAIN A FILE OF THOSE RESPONSES?
YES.
WOULD YOU GIVE TO THE COURT TODAY JUST SOME
OF WHAT SOME OF THOS'E REGISTRARS COMMUNICATED
MS . I,r I NI',IER :
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
OBJECT ION.
WE WILL RECEIVE THE
EVI DENCE. OVERRULED.
MS . }.J I NNER : COULD I ASK MR. SPEARMAN
TO AT LEAST IDENTTFY WHICH COUNTIES SO THAT WE KNOW
WHETHER OR NOT IT IS RELEVANT?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE THE QUESTION I,,A
ONE \^'HICH ASKED HIM TO GIVE SAMPLES. I ASSUME I F HE CAN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
GIVE SAMPLES HE CAN IDENTIFY THEM BY THEIR LOCALITY.
LETIS HEAR IVHAT HE CAN OFFER.
THE WITNESS: YES. WELL, FOR EXAMPLE,
IN DURHAM COUNTY AFTER WE REQUESTED THAT THE COUNTY
ELECTION BOARD REMOVE THE P.ESTRICTIONS ON REGISTRARS SO
THAT THEY COULD REGISTER PEOPLE ANYWHERE WITHIN A COUNTY,
THE COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARD VERY PROMPTLY DID THAT AND SO
REPORTED TO ME, AND THEY INFORMED ALL OF THEIR REGISTRAR
AND L'UDGES THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE FREE TO GO ANYWHERE IN
DURHAM COUNTY THEY WANTED TO WITHOUT BEING CLEARED BY THE
COUNTY BOAPID TO REGISTER PEOPLE ANYWHERE IN DURHAM COUNTY
A NUMsER OF OTHER COUNTIES MADE REPORTS VERY
SIMILAR TO THAT. ONES THAT I RECALL THAT IS SO WOULD BE
MARTIN, PENDER, ROBESON AND MONTGOMERY COUNTIES. AND
MORE GENERALLY, OTHER COUNTIES IN ADDITION TO THOSE
REPORTED TO ME, OF COURSE, ON THEIR REGISTRATION ACTIVI-
TIES.
oNEoTHERSPECTFICCoUNTY.THATREPoRTEDT0ME
ON THIS SAME PROBLEM WAS EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THERE, AFTER
MADE THE REQUEST THAT THEY REMOVE RESTRICTIONS ON
REGISTRARS, THE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS DID SO AND
REPORTED THAT BACK TO ME.
BY I.4R. LEONARD:
aWITHRESPECTSPEcIFICALLYToEDGECoMBECoUNTY,
DID YOU LEARN THAT THAT COUNTY I'JAS HAVING ANY PARTICULAR
25
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DIFFICULTY IN CARRYING OUT THE PROGRAM?
WELL, FAIRLY EARLY IN OUR PROGRAM I RECEIVED A
NUMBER OF COMMUNICATIONS FROM VARIOUS BLACK GROUPS IN
EDGECOMBE COUNTY. AS I RECALL, ONE OF THEM WAS SOMETHING,
I BELIEVE--IT WAS THE GOLDEN EAGLES MOTORCYCLE CLUB. AND
THESE PEOPLE INDICATED THAT THEY WERE VERY CONCERNED ABOU
INCREASING VOTER REGISTRATION LEVELS; AND SPECIFICALLY
THAT THEY HAD A PROBLEM IN FINDING REGISTRARS WHO COULD
COME OUT TO THESE DIFFERENT EVENTS TO REGISTER VOTERS.
AT ABOUT THAT TIME OR .JUST AFTER THAT, I GUESS,
I REQUESTED THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY BOARD TO ELIMINATE ANY
OF THESE LOCAL RESTRICTIONS WHICH PREVENTED REGISTRARS,
JUDGES OR SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS FROM
REGISTERING PERSONS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTY. AND THE LOCAL
BOARD DID THAT.
. A DID THE ELECTION BOARD MAKE ANY RECOMMENDATION
TO THE LEGISLATURE WITH RESPECT TO CHANGING STATE LAW
RELATING TO VOTER REGISTRATION?
YES. WE T4ADE A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS IN
1982. WE WERE CONCERNED THAT THOUGH MANY OF THE COUNTI'ES
HAD GONE AHEAD AIJD EL IMiNATED THESE
.LOCAL
RESTRICTIONS,
THERE WERE STILL SOME WHICH HAD NOT. THEREFORE, WE
RECOMMENDED TO THE GENERAL ASSET4BLY THAT THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY ADOPT LEGISLATION \^IHICH WOULD PROVIDE THAT ANY
REGISTRAR, JUDGE OR SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONER WAS'a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ENTITLED TO REGISTER PEOPLE ANYWHERE WITHIN A COUNTY IN
ALL lOO COUNTIES IN NOR,TH CAROLIIlA.
1982.
TION.
AND
AND
WE SUGGESTED THAT, I GUESS, IN THE SPRING OF
SENATOR P.USSELL WALKER SPONSORED THE LEGISLA.
THAT WAS ADOPTED.
A SECOND RECOMMENDATION WE MADE WAS THAT EACH
COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARD BE AUTHORIZED TO APPOINT TEN
ADDITIONAL SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS. LET ME
EXPLAIN THAT.JUST A MOMENT. SPECIAL REGISTRATION
COMI.II SS I ONERS ARE APPOINTED FOR TWO-YEAR TERMS. AND THEY
ARE APPOINTED IN ODD-.NUMBERED YEARS--FOR EXAMPLE, IN 198
THAT MEANT THAT AT THE TI'ME I BECAME STATE
BOARD CHAIRMAN THE APPOINTMENTS TO RUN FOR THE TWO-YEAR
PERIOD OF 1981 TO tB3 HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE. AND SO THE
BOARDS DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO APPOINT ADDITIONAL
COMMI SS IONERS UNDER THE THEN.EXI STING LAW. THAT I S I^,HY
WE RECOMMENDED THE T-EVI gE AMENDED SO THEY COULD APPOINT
ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS. .THAT RECOMMENDATION WAS ALSO
ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
HOT^' DOES THAT RELATE TO EXHIBIT 11?
A I,ELL, IN EXHIBIT 1I--EXHIBIT 11 IS A MEMORANU.M
I SENT TO THE COUNTY BOARDS ABOUT VOTER REGISTRATION AND
THE NEW LEGISLATION WHICH HAD BEEN ADOPTED. AND IT SIMPL
EXPLAINS TO OUR COUNTY BOARDS }./HAT THE LEGISLATURE HAD
DONE AT OUR REOUEST \^'I TH RESPECT TO THESE OFFI CIALS BEING
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
ABLE TO REGI STER COUT..ITY}'/IDE AND EXPLAINED TO THEM THAT
THAT WOULD NOh' BE THE RULE THROUGHOUT NORTH CAROLINA.
SECOND, IT EXPLAINED THAT THEY COULD APPOINT
ADDITIONAL REGI STRATION COMMISSIOI'IERS AND EXPLAINED TO
THEI.,I THE TIMETABLE FOR DOING THAT. THE SAME MEI'IORANDUM
ALSO HAS SOI4E ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT REGISTRATION
IN IT.
AT THAT POINT, BY THE END OF THE SUMMER OF
1982 WE WERE BEGINNING TO ORGANIZE WHAT WE CALLED A
WORK PLACE REG I STRAT I ON E FFORT. AND THERE, WE I,,ERE
ATTEMPTiNG TO MAKE VOTER REGI STRATI'ON OPPORTUNITIES
AVAILABLE IN DIFFERENT BUSINESSES AROUND NORTH CAROLINA.
IN ORDER TO DO THAT, I HAD WRITTEN TO A LARGE
NUMBER OF BUS ] NESSES SCATTERED AROUND THE STATE, EXPLAIT\ED
TO THEM THAT WE WANTED TO TRY TO MAKE REGISTRATION
AVAILABLE DURING A WEEK IN SEPTEMBER AT PEOPLEIS WORK
PLACE AND ASKING THEM WHETHER THEY WOULD PARTICIPATE.
A NUMBER OF THE BUSINESSES INDICATED THEY WERE
WILLING TO DO THAT. AND DEFENDANTST EXHIBIT 11, A MEMO
TO THE LOCAL BOARDS, ALSO EXPLAINS THAT PROGRAM TO THE
LOCAL ELECTION BOARDS AND ASKS THAT THEY COOPERATE WITH
THE BUSINESSES THAT WOULD BE WILLING TO HAVE REGISTRATION
AT THE WORK PLACE.
ITPARTICULARLYToLDTHEMTHATTHEY,THELoCAL
BOARDS, NEEDED TO RECRUIT THE REGISTRARS TO SEND OUT TO
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THE BUSINESSES TO DO THE REGISTRATION.
O AND EXHIBITS L2 AND 13 SIMPLY SET OUT THE
BUSINESSES WHO COOPERATED IN THAT PROGRAM--IN EXHIBIT 12?
AND EXHIBIT t3 IS A PRESS RELEASE EXPLAINING THE PRoGRAM?
ATHATIScoRREcT.DEFENDANTS'EXHIBIT12SETS
OUT SOME OF--THAT IS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE LIST. BUT IT IS
A LIST OF SOME OF THE BUSINESSES THAT PARTICIPATED' AND
THAT LIST WAS.-SOME OF THE BUSINESSES HAD INDICATED THEY
WOULD PARTICIPATE. AND I SENT THAT LIST TO ALL THE LOCAL
BOARDS SO THAT THEN THEY COULD COORDINATE T''ITH EACH OF
THE BUSINESSES, BE IT FIRST UNiON OR \'IACHOVIA BANK OR THE
ATPoRTHEDIFFERENToNESTHATARELISTEDoNTHAT
EXHIBIT.
aATSol'4EPoINTINTiME,DIDYoUASCHAIRMANoF
THE STATE BOARD ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF
THEPRoGRAMWITHRESPECTToTHESPEcIFICQUESTIoNoFTHE
INCREASE IN VOTER REGISTRATION?
AYES.THEBooKScLoSEDFoRTHENoVEMBERI82
ELECTIoNINocToBERIgS2,AMoNTHBEFoRETHEELECTI0N.
SoTHATREALLYFoRMEDAVERYNATURALPoINTATWHICHTo
TRY TO EVALUATE WHAT WE HAD DONE'
IT EXISTED
STARTED THE
CLOSED FOR
SO WHAT WE DID WAS TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION AS
IN FEBRUARY ,82, WHICH WAS JUST AFTER \'IE HAD
PROGRAM; THEN TO LOOK AT IT WHEI'I THE BOOKS
THE FALL ELECTIOI{ IN OCTOSER OF 1982' AND
t. o. Eor 2tltil
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PRECISION REFORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 14 ACTUALLY SETS OUT MOST OF THAT
IN TABULAR FORM.
I MIGHT SAY FIRST THAT IN THIS TIME PERIOD II']
THIS EFFORT WE HAD A LARGER INCREASE iN REGiSTRATION THAN
NORTH CAROLINA HAD EVER HAD IN ITS HISTORY iN A NON-
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR. OF COURSE, I82 VJERE CON_
GRESSIONAL AND GENERAL ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS, BUT NOT A
PRESIDENT IAL ELECTION.
DURING THAT PERIOD APPROXIMATELY AN ADDITIONAL
188,000 voTERS WERE REGISTERED. OF THOSE, OVER 68r000
r^rE,RE NON-WHITE. ABOUT i19r000 WERE WHITE. l^rE HAD DURING
THE PERIOD AN INCREASE OF 17 PERCENT IN THE NUMBER OF
BLACK VOTERS REGISTERED. AND WE HAD AN INCREASE OF 7.5
PERCENT AMONG ALL VOTERS REGISTERED. THE PERCENTAGE
INCREASE AMONG WHITE VOTERS ONLY WAS 5.7 PERCENT.
. NOW, WHEN WE STARTED THE WHOLE EFFORT BACK IN
FEBRUARY, NORTH CAROLI.NA' S' PERCENTAGE OF PERSONS ELIGIBLE
WHO WERE ACTUALLY REGISTERED IVAS 58.6 PERCENT. BY THE
TIME THE BOOKS CLOSED IN CCTOBER OF 1982, IT \iIAS 61.1
PERCENT. SO WE WERE GENERALLY PLEASED WITH THE INCREASES
THAT CAME ABOUT DURING THIS TIME PERIOD.
THEoTHERATTACHMENTSToTHATEXHIBITSEToUT
THE INFORMATION ON REGISTRATION CHANGES FROM FEBRUARY TO
OCTOBER 1982 IN CONSIDERABLY GREATER DETAIL.
A TURNING T_O PAGE 2 OF THAT EXHIBIT 14, CHAIRMAN'o
F P. O.601 2ar{lll
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZO}iA
SPEARMAN, I NOTE THAT THE TWO LOWEST COUNTIES IN PERCEN
INCREASE ARE MECKLENBURG AND WAKE. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT
PHENOMENON ?
MY OWN CONCLUSION ABOUT THAT WOULD BE THAT
THERE HAD BEEN FAIRLY EXTENSIVE VOTER REGISTRATION EFFORT
IN MECKLENBURG AND WAKE FOR A GOOD WHiLE. I.IEITHER MECK-
LENBURG NOR WAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD THE RESTRICTIVE RULES
ABOUT THE REGISTRARS TO WHICH I REFERRED EARLIER. BOTH
MECKLENBURG ANJD WAKE FOR SOME TIME HAD HAD PUBLIC LIBRARY
REG I STRAT TON.
NOT HAD
A NUMBER
r N 1982.
BY CONTRAST, SOME OF THESE OTHER COUNTIES HAD
AS ACTIVE REGISTRATION EFFORTS IN THE PAST. AND
OF THEM HAD VERY, VERY ACTIVE REGISTRATION EFF
AND THEY HAVE HIGHER PERCENTAGE INCREASES.
ALSO, PART OF IT, I THINK,.JUST HAS TO DO WITH
NUMBERS. WHEN YOU ARE.TALKING ABOUT THESE SMALLER COUN-
TIES AN INCREASE OF, SAY, 2,OOO MAY BE AN ENORMOUS PERCEN
TAGE INCREASEi WHEREAS, IN WAKE COUNTY AN INCREASE OF
2,OOO IS NOT AN ENORMOUS PERCENTAGE INCREASE BECAUSE YOU
HAVE A VERY LARGE POPULATION BASE THAT YOU ARE STARTI.NG
FROM.
a D0 You KNow I^IHo rHE CHAIRMAN OF THE ELECTION
BOARDS IN WAKE AND MECKLENBURG COUNTY ARE?
A T.IELL, THE CHAI RMAN OF THE ELECTION BOARD I N
MECKLENBURG IS MS, LYNCH, WHO TESTIFTED HERE EARLIER TODAY
F P. O. 0or 2ltaa
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THE CHAIRI.4AN OF THE I^IAKE COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS FOR
THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS HAS BEEN ROSA GILL.
I NOTE THAT I N EDGECOMBE COUNTY THE PERCENTAGE
INCREASE IN NON_WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS I,,AS 54 PERCENT.
I^/HAT WERE THE ACTUAL PERCENTAGES? IN OTHER 1^'ORDS, GIVE
US THE PERCEI.ITAGE IT WAS PRIOR AND WHAT IT V'ENT TO.
WELL, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PERIOD, 34
PERCENT OF THE BLACK PERSONS OF VOTING AGE POPULATION IN
EDG.ECOMBE WERE REGI STERED. AT THE END OF THE PERIOD 55
PERCENT OF THE BLACK PERSONS OF VOTTNG AGE IN EDGECOMBE
I.,ERE REG I ST E RE D .
THERE WERE FAIRLY SL'BSTANTIAL CHANGES IN A
NUMBER OF THE DIFFERENT COUNTIES. IN NORTHAMPTON AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE PERIOD, OF THE BLACK PERSONS OF VOTING
AGE 51 PERCENT h'ERE REGISTERED. AT THE END OF THE PERIOD
IN NORTHAI4PTON, 72 PERCENT OF THE BLACK PERSONS OF VOTING
AGE POPULATION WERE REGISTERED.
THE INCREASE IN NASH USING THE SAME PARAMETERS
WAS FROM 30 TO 42. THE INCREASE IN CASWELL WAS FROM 48
TO 71. AND IN HALIFAX IT WAS FROM 39 PERCENT OF THOSE
ELIGIBLE REGISTERED AT THE BEGINNING TO 53 PERCENT OF
THOSE ELIGIBLE ACTUALLY REGiSTERED AT THE END OF THE
PER I OD.
IN DiJRHAM, THE INCREASE WAS FROM 43 PERCENT
OF THOSE ELIGIBLE REGISTERED TO 5!] PERCENT OF THOSE
P. O.8or 2t1&!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832,9085
779-3619 876.1571
PI-IOENIX, ARIZONA
533
ELIGIBLE REGISTERED. THAT REFERS*.THOSE FIGURES I HAVE
JUST GIVEN YOU P.EFER TO I.ION-WHITE REGISTRATIoN.
A WHAT DID YOU OBSERVE WITH RESPECT TO THE
FORSYTH INCREASE WHICH WAS, AS INDICATED ON YOUR LISTING,
ON 13 PERCENT?
A WELL, THERE AGAIN, YOU HAVE THE PHENOMENON THA
YOU ARE STARTING WITH A VERY LARGE STATISTICAL BASE. IN
oTHER WORDS, THERE ARE ALMOST 3r000 ADDITIONAL BLACK
VOTERS REGISTERED IN FORSYTH AND 4,100 ADDITIONAL WHITES,
WHICH IN ABSOLUTE TERMS OBVIOUSLY IS LARGER THAN A LOT OF
OTHER NUMBERS ON THOSE SHEETS.
BUT SINCE YOUR POPULATION BASE IS LARGE IN
FORSYTH TO START I^JITH, IT DOESN' T GIVE YOU AS BIG A
PERCENTAGE INCREASE. ANOTHER THING IS THAT IN FORSYTH AS
IN WAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE HAD BEEN A NUMBER OF REGIS-
TRATION EFFORTS FOR MANY YEARS IN FORSYTH COUNTY. AND
CERTAINLy 1982 WAS *Or--rO' KNOW, WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME
A MAJOR REGISTRATION EFFORT WAS MADE.
ALL THREE OF THOSE COUNTIES, BY THE WAY, HAVE
A BLACK MEMBER ON THE COUNTY ELECTION BOARD--THAT IS,
FORSYTH, MECKLENBURG AND WAKE
q WHAT EFFORTS HAVE YOU MADE IN 1981 WITH RESPECT
TO VOTER REGISTRATION?
A OUR PRINCIPAL EFFORT IN 198] HAS BEEN IN THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY. _IN DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 15, WHICH IS A
A 2. O. gor 2tt.s
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1s71
PFOENIX. ARIZONA
LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR AND TO THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHI
WE RECOMMENDED THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ADOPT A NUMBER
OF REFORMS--A NUMBER OF NEI^, LAI,/S--IN THE AREA OF VOTER
REGISTRATION.
A LET ME, I F I COULD, .JUST INTERRUPT. WOULD YOU
GO THROUGH THAT EXHIBIT, PLEASE, AND TEIL THE COURT WHICH
ONES OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE PASSED, A5 FAR AS YOU
KNOW?
ALL RIGHT. I AM NOW REFERRING TO DEFENDANTS'
EXHIBIT 15, OUR FIRST RECOMMENIDATION WAS THAT THE GENERA
ASSEMBLY GRANT US-_THE STATE ELECTIONS BOARD--AUTHORITY
TO NAME DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VE}.IICLE DRIVERI S LICENSE
EXAMINERS AS SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS, SO THAT
ANYBODY WHO CAME IN TO OBTAIN OR RENEW A DRTVERTS LICENSE
COULD REGISTER TO VOTE AT THE DI.IV EXAMINING OFFICE.
.a
A
WHO WAS THE.AUTHOR OF THAT LEGISLATION?
THAT LEGISLATION WAS SPONSORED BY TWO REPRESEN
TATIVES FROM WAKE COUNTY, REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS AND REPRE-
SENTATIVE DAN BLUE. AND THAT LEGISLATION WAS ADOPTED--
WAS PASSED--BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. AND THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY APPROPRIATED APPROXIMATELY $96O,OOO TO IMPLEMENT
IT. I,/E WERE VERY PLEASED ABOUT THAT ONE, BECAUSE THE ONL
OTHER PLACE IN THE UNION WHICH HAD BEEN DOING IT BEFORE
WAS MICHIGAN, WHERE IT WAS DONE ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO.
AND WHEN IT I^,AS IMPLE}4ENTED IN MICHIGAN, IT HELPED GETto
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THEIR REGISTRATION LEVELS UP TO IN EXCESS OF 7O PERCENT:
SO WE FELT IT I^,AS A VERY GOOD KIND OF PROGRAM TO GET INTO
A TELL THE COURT VERY BRIEFLY HOW THAT WORKS.
A WELL, VERY BRIEFLY IT WILL SIMPLY MEAN THAT
WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN TO GET A DRIVERIS LICENSE OR TO HAV
A DRIVERIS LICENSE RENEWED THAT THEY WILL BE GIVEN AN
OPPORTUNITY TO REGISTER TO VOTE. MUCH OF THE INFORMATION
ONE HAS TO GIVE FOR A DRIVERIS LICENSE IS THE SAME AS WHA
YOU GIVE TO REGISTER TO VOTE'
AND THE DRIVER' S LICENSE EXAMINER I^,ILL SIMPLY
TAKE DOWN THAT INFORMATIbN ON THE STANDARD REGISTRATION
APPLICATION FORM AT THE DMV OFFICE. AND IT I,IILL BE SIGNE
AND SI''ORN TO BY THE REGISTRANT. AND IT WILL THEN BE
FORWARDED TO THE COUNTY ELECTTONS BOARD, WHICH WILL PRO-
CESS IT THE SAME WAY THEY WOULD ANY OTHER APPLICATION THA
COMES IN FROM A REGISTRAR.
a ALL RIGHT. HOW ABOUT YOUR SECOND RECOMMENDA-
TION?
A THE SECOND RECOMMENDATION WAS LEGISLATI.ON TO
PERMIT VOTER REGISTRATION AT PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS I^/ITH
SCHOOL LIBRARIANS AS THE REGIS'TRARS. THAT LEGISLATION WA
SPONSORED BY SENATOR I^IOODARD OF WAKE COUNTY. IT WAS
SLIGHTLY--IT WAS CHANGED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SO THAT
IT ENDED UP AUTHORIZING ANY PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL EMPLOYEE
THAT THE ELECTION BOARD AND THE SCHOOL BOARD AGREED ON TO
F P. O. Bor 1'tlGl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZOf.,IA
SERVE AS A REGISTRAR. AND THAT WAS PASSED BY THE GENERA
ASSEMBLY.
THE NEXT RECOMMENDATION WAS ONE TO REQUIRE
PUBLIC LIBRARIES IN THE STATE TO PERMIT VOTER REGISTRA-
TION. THAT WAS PASSED SO AS TO BE MANDATORY FOR EVERY
PUBLIC LIBRARY IN NORTH CAROLINA THAT HAS FOUR OR MORE
EMPLOYEES. IT WAS PASSED SO THAT I.T COULD BE DONE ON A
PERMISSIVE BASIS FOR ANY PUBLIC LIBRARY. SO ANY PUBLIC
LIBRARY THAT WANTS TO DO IT, THEY CAN. PUBLIC LIBRARIES
THAT HAVE FOUR OR MORE EMPLOYEES HAVE TO HAVE LIBRARY
EMPLOYEES AFFORD A REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITY.
I WILL COVER THE OTHER ITEMS QUICKLY. THEY
ARE NOT DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO REGISTRATION. THE FOURTH
WAS LEGISLATION TO PERMIT THE SIMULTANEOUS ISSUANCE OF AN
ABSENTEE BALLOT APPLICATION AND THE BALLOT ITSELF. THAT
PASSED. THE FIFTH WAS TO PERMIT THE STATE ELECTIONS
BOARD TO ORDER NEW ET-TCTIONIS AFTER HEARINGS HAD BEEN HELD
AND FINDINGS MADE A COUNTY BOARD IF WE DETERMINED THAT AN
ADDITIONAL HEARING WASN'T NECESSARY. THAT PASSED. AND
THE SIXTH ITEM I'JAS LEGISLATION TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM
OF OUT-OF-PRECINCT VOTING SO THAT WE COULD GET PEOPLE WHO
HAD MOVED VOTING IN THE CORRECT PRECINCT. THAT ALSO
PASSED IN A FORM SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE WE
ORIGINALLY RECOMMENDED. SO ALL OF THE SIX SUGGESTIONS
THAT I,/E MADE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WERE ADOPTED IN THIS
F P. O. gor 2ltas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN CFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LAST SESSION.
A I TAKE IT THAT THESE HAVE NOT YET BEEN SUB-
MITTED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTICE_-THE U. S. DEPARTMENT
OF .JUSTI CE.-FOR PRE.CLEARANCE?
NO. WE WILL TAKE THE WHOLE PACKAGE OF ALL THE
ELECTION LAW THINGS THAT WERE DONE.
SPEAKING OF THE U:'5. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
AT.O EDGECOMBE COUNTY DID THERE COME A TIME }'IHEN YOU IdERE
INFORI4ED BY THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY OFFICIALS THAT THEY I,JERE
HAVING A PROBLEM WITH THE .JUSTICE DEPARTI,IENT_.THAT IS, TH
U. S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?
YES.
TELL THE COURT ABOUT IT.
WELL, PROBLEM APPARENTLY IS THIS: THAT THE
.JUSTICE DEPARTMENT--FEDERAL \'USTICE DEPARTMENT--FROM TIME
TO TIME HAS SENT EXAMINERS TO EDGECOMBE COUNTY. AND THE
FEDERAL JUSTICE OTPENTIITT.IT HAS TAKEN THE POSITION THAT
THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARD SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN
SPECIFIC REGISTRATION EFFORTS UNLESS THESE ARE PRE-CLEARE
BY THE,JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN WASHINGTON.
SO YOU HAVE GOT THE SITUATION WHERE A REQUEST
WILL CO}4E IN TO THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARD THAT
PEOPLE I.IANT, SAY, REGISTRARS SENT TO A PICNIC OR A
COMMUNITY EVENT OF ONE SORT OR ANOTHER. AND OBVIOUSLY,
THE EASIEST THING TO DO I^'OULD .JUST BE TO SEND THEM. BUT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.457.1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THE UNITED STATES JUSTICE DEPARTMENT APPARENTLY TAKES
THE POSITION THAT THAT VIOLATES THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IF
YOU SENT REGISTRARS TO THE PiCNIC OR THE CHURCH, UNLESS
YOU GET PRE-CLEARANCE FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
SO I I^,OULDNTT SAY IT HAS BEEN A MA.JOR PROBLEM.
BUT IT HAS CREATED A NUMBER OF SNARLS BECAUSE THE COUNTY
ELECTIONS BOARDS HAS GOT TO TELL THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
OF THE REQUEST THAT IT GETS TO SEND REGISTRARS OUT TO DO
REGISTRATION AND GET THE FEDERAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO
EITHER APPROVE IT OR NOT OBJECT TO IT BEFORE THEY GO OUT.
a oF couRSE, THAT APPLIES ONLY TO 40 OF THE 100
COUNTIES?
A YES. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THAT WOULD APPLY TO-
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THAT WOULD APPLY TO SO-CALLED COVERED
COUNTIES. I DON'T THINK THERE HAS EVER BEEN ANY ISSUE---
. MS. WINNER: (TNTTRpoSING) I oB.JEcT
TO MR. SPEARMANTS UNDERSTANDING OF SOMETHING THAT HE
CLEARLY HAS NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF.
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
BY MR. LEONARD:
OVERRULED.
a woulD You LooK AT DEFENDANTS', EXHIBIT 16,
CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN, WHICH IS THE ROSTER OF COUNTY BOARDS
OF ELECTIONS THROUGHOUT THE STATE? I BELIEVE YOU INDI.
CATED WHENI YOU iDENTIFIED THE DOCUMENT THAT THERE WERE
SINCE YOU MARKED THE COURTIS COPY SOME ADDITIONAL MEMBERS
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PBECISION REPOHTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WHO YOU HAVE LEARI'JED WHO ARE BLACK, IS THAT COP.RECT?
A YES. BOARD MEMBER MR. STEI,,ART I N BERT I E
COUNTY IS BLACK. AND I DONIT THINK THAT WAS INDICATED ON
THE COURTIS COPY. THE REPIJBLICAN MEMBER IN CRAVEN COUNTY
MR. JESSE PARKER, IS BLACK. I DONIT BELIEVE THAT WAS SO
I ND I CATED ON TIIE COURT I S COPY.
MR. \'ONES AND MR. B I SHOP I N CUMBERLAND COUNTY,
TWO OF THE THREE BOARD MEMBERS, ARE BLACK. AND I DON?T
BELIEVE THAT WAS INDiCATED ON THE COURTIS COPY.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS: \^'OULD YOU RUN THROUGH
THOSE ONE MORE TIME?
THE WITNESS: YE S . THE ONES r.,H I CH--THE
MEMBERS I^,HO ARE BLACK WHERE I DONTT THINK THAT WAS
INDICATED ON THE ORIGINAL EXHIBIT ARE MR. STEWART IN
BERTIE COUNTY, WHICH IS ON THE FIRST PAGE.
JUDGE PHILL.IPS:
THE \^IITNESS:
ALL RIGHT.
THEN ON THE SECOND PAGE,
MR. JONES AND MR. RICHARD BlSHOP IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY;
AND JUST ABOVE THAT, MR. PARKER IN CRAVEN COUNTY.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : PARKER HAS BEEN I',IARKED OI.I
MINE.
.JUDGE BR I TT : MINE, TOO.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: VERY WELL.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A HAVE YOU UADE A COMPUTATION OF HOW MANY OF THE
F P. O. Aor 2allt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3OO MEMBERS ARE BLACK?
A YES.
'7
OF THE ] OO MEMBERS ARE BI.ACK. OF THE
PERSONS WHO ARE CHAIRMEN OF BOARDS, 13 OF THE CHAIRMEN
ARE BLACK.
a You WERE AT ONE TIME
COUNTY DEI4OCRATIC PARTY, IS THAT
CHAIRMAN OF THE WAKE
CORRE CT ?
OF THE WAKE COUNTY DEMO-A YES. I WAS CHAIRMAN
CRATIC PARTY FROM 1979 TO 1981.
A DO BLACKS PARTICIPATE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
IN VJAKE COUNTY?
A YES; THEY CERTAINLY DO.
A DO YOU HOW MANY OF THE PRECINCT CHAIRMEN IN
MAJORITY WHITE PRECINCTS IN WAKE COUNTY ARE BLACK?
MR. WINNER: I OB.JECT, UNLESS HE IS
CHAIRMAN NOW OR HAS SOME ACCESS TO THE RECORDS NOW.
BY MR. LEONARD:
DO YOU KNOW?
A I KNOW OF A NUMBER WHO ARE. I THINK THE MOST
ACCURATE WAY I COULD DESCRIBE THAT IS.JUST TO TELL YOU
THE SITUATIONS I KNOW WHERE THERE IS A BLACK CHAIRMAN OR
HAS BEEN IN A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE PRECINCT. I HAVENIT
MADE A FULL COUNT.
MY OI^'N PRECINCT IS PRECINCT 33, WHICH IS UP AN
DOWN RIDGE ROAD IN WEST RALEiGH, WHICH IS PREDOI4INANTLY
WHITE. IT HAD FOR AT_ LEAST FOUR YEARS, UP UNTIL THE LAST
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, tNC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH. 832,9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TWO YEARS, A BLACK C}]AIRMAN, WHO WAS CLIFFONIA WIMBERLE
WHO WAS ALSO A MEMBER AT ONE TIME OF THE SCHOOL BOARD.
IN PRECIIICT 28 BEFORE HE WAS IN THE STATE
LEGISLATURE, DAN BLUE I,/AS THE DEMOCRATIC PRECINCT CHAIR-
MAN. MR. BLUE IS BLACK. THAT WAS A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE
PRECINCT.
A WHERE IS THAT PRECINCT LOCATED?
A WELL, IT IS OFF NEW BERN AVENUE. AT THE TIME
I BECAME CHAIRMAN, PRECINcT NUMBEP. 10, wHICH IS A PREDoMI
NANTLY WHITE PRECINCT BASICALLY IN THE HAYES BARTON AREA,
HAD MR. CAMERON, l^JHo WORKS AT STATE COLLEGE AND wHo IS
BLACK, AS CHAIRMAN OF THAT PRECINCT.
AND THERE WERE A NUMBER OF OTHER SITUATIONS
WHERE FIRST VICE CHAIRMEN OF PREDOI'{INANTLY WHITE PRECINCT
WERE HELD-.THAT POSITION WAS HELD BY PERSONS WHO WERE
BLAC,K
A DO BLACKS HAVE POLITICAL INFLUENCE IN THE WAKE
COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY? .
A YES. I WOULD CERTAINLY SAY SO, BASED UPON THE
WORK I HAVE DONE IN THE WAKE COUNTY'DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
A DO THEY REGULARLY GET ELECTED TO COUNTY DEMO-
CRATIC POLITICAL OFFICE?
A YES.
A DO THEY GET ELECTED TO OTHER PUBLICLY ELECTED
OFFICES IN WAKE COUNLY?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES.
a THE SCHOOL BOARD?
A YES.
a couNTY BoARD OF COMMISSIONERS?
A YES.
A THE LEGI SLATURE ?
A YES. THE PERSON WHO LED THE TICKET LAST TIME
COUNTYI.,IDE I5 THE SAME GENTLEMAN I MENTIONED BEFORE, DAN
BLUE, WHO IS BLACK. AND HE, AS I RECALL, RECEIVED MORE
VOTES THAN ANY WHITE CANDIDATE RUNNING COUNTYWIDE IN THE
LAST ELECTION.
a wHo wAS THE SECOND HIGHEST VOTE-GETTER tN THE
COUNTY ?
A AS I RECALL, I BELIEVE THE SECOND HIGHEST VOTE
GETTER WAS PROBABLY RUTH COOK.
. A WHAT RACE IS SHE?
A SHE IS WHITE.
A WASN'T THERE ANOJHER BLACK RUNNING IN THAT
ELECTION COUNTYWIDE?
A THERE WAS NO OTHER BLACK RUNNING FOR STATE
HOUSE. BUT SHERIFF BAKER--JOHN BAKER, WHO IS BLACK--WAS
OVERWHELMINGLY RE-ELECTED. HE WON FIRST THE PRIMARY AND
THE GENERAL ELECTION.
A AND IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN,
SINCE THE ELECTIONS _OF 1978 AND 1980 AND 1982 HAS RACE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BEEN A PREDOMiNANT OR A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE
ELECTIONS THAT YOU HAVE OBSERVED IN WAKE COUNTY?
A I WOULD SAY SO. I DONIT THINK SO. I MEAN,
YOU HAVE HAD--WELL, THE MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLES, I THINK,
ARE PROBABLY SHERIFF BAKER AND DAN BLUE, WHO HAVE DEFEATE
WHITE CANDIDATES AI'ID THEMSELVES RECEIVED A MAJORITY OF
THE I.,H I TE VOTE.
MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: PROCEED.
C R O S S - E X A M I N.A T I O N 2:57 P.M.
BY MS. WINNER:
A MR. SPEARMAN, I BELIEVE THAT YOU INDICATED
THAT YOU WERE APPOINTED TO THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS I
NOVEMBER OF 1981i ,IS THAT CORRECT?
. A THAT IS CORRECT.
A YOU WERE APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR--BY THE
GOVERNOR ?
A YES. I WAS APPOINTED TO THE BOARD BY THE
GOVERNOR. TECHNICALLY, I WAS ELECTED AS CHAIRMAN BY THE
OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BOARD.
AYOUTALKEDWITHHIMBEFOREYOU\^,EREAPPOINTED?
A YES.
A AND HE HAD ASKED TO SEE YOU?
A YES.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHCENIX, ARIZONA
AND WHEN YOU CAME, HE TOLD YOU T./HAT HIS GOAL
WAS FOR THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS,; DIDNIT HE?
A WELL, HE ASKED ME I^/HETHER I WAS INTERESTED IN
SERVING AS CHAIRMAN OF THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTION. AND
HE SAID THAT ONE THING HE WAS VERY INTERESTED IN WAS WHAT
WE COULD ?O OBOUT INCREASING REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES.
AND I TOLD HIM I WAS ALSO VERY INTERESTED IN THAT.
A BUT HE WANTED TO HAVE AN ACTIVE BOARD? THAT
WAS HIS GOAL?
A I THINK THAT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY.
A AND HE WAS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED THAT THERE
WERE PARTS OF THE STATE OR SOI4E SEGMENTS OF THE STATE THA
WERE MORE UNDERREPRESENTED THAN OTHERS; WASN?T HE?
I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN.
OF PEOPLE
PEOPLE ?
A YES. WE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT--WELL, WE
TALKED ABOUT TWO THINGS, AS I RECALL: THAT NORTH CAROLI
REGISTRATION WAS LOW GENERALLY=-THAT IS, THAT NORTH
CAROLINAIS AVERAGE REGISTRATION LEVELS WERE LOWER THAN
THE NATIONAL AVERAGE; AND THAT THAT WAS PARTICULARLY TRUE
AMONG SOME GROUPS. AND I, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY REMEMBE
YOUNG PEOPLE AND BLACK CITIZENS. AND \^IE MAY ALSO HAVE
TALKED ABOUT ELDERLY-CITIZENS. I DONIT REMEMBER.
A THAT THERE WERE SOME GROUPS
LOWER REGISTRATION THAN OTHER GROUPS OF
VrAS ONE OF HIS COf.fCf nftfSf
WHO
AND
HAD
THAT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
A SO THE UNDER-REGISTRATION OF BLACK CITIZENS
WAS AN IMPORTANT ENOUGH PROBLEM THAT HE MENTIONED THAT TO
YOU WHEN HE WAS APPOINTING YOU?
A HE MENTIONED TO ME, I RECALL SPECIFICALLY,
THREE TH I NGS. ONE WAS THAT I'IORTH CAROL I NA REG I STRAT I ON
LEVELS WERE LOWER FOR BOTH BLACKS AND WHITES THAN THEY
WERE NATIONALLY; NUMBER TWO, THAT REGISTRATION LEVELS WER
PARTICULARLY LOW AMONG NORTH CAROLINA YOUNG PEOPLE; AND
THAT NORTH CAROLINA REGISTRATION LEVELS WERE LOW,
PARTICULARLY AMONG BLACK PEOPLE IN NORTH CAROLINA. THOSE
ARE THE THREE THINGS I REMEMBER TALKING WITH HIM ABOUT.
A THAT WAS IN THE FALL OF 1981 THAT YOU HAD THAT
CONVER SAT I ON ?
A YES.
A AND YOU AGREED WITH HIM AT THAT TIME THAT THE
REGI.STRATION OF BLACK PEOPLE TVAS A PROBLEi.1?
A WELL, THERE IS CERTAINLY NOT ANY QUESTION BUT
THAT THE REGISTRATION OF BLACK PEOPLE WAS PERCENTAGE-WISE
LOWER THAN IT VIAS AMONG WHITE PEOPLE. YES. I WOULD
AGREE WITH THAT--ALSO WITH THE YOUNG PEOPLE.
A THERE WAS A SUBSTANTIAL GAP?
A UH-HUH.
a Now, WHEN YOU SET ABOUT T0 TRY TO SOLVE THIS
PROBLEM, DID YOU DEAL WITH THE LOCAL_.I BELIEVE YOU
TESTIFIED YOU DEALT WITH THE LOCAL BOARDS OF ELECTIONS?
A P. O. gor 2tt(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WELL, THAI'IS CERTAINLY ONE THING I DID.
A AND YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH THE LOCAL BOARDS OF
ELECTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE POI^,ER
TO REGISTER PEOPLE; IS THAT RIGHT?
tvELL, LOCAL BOARD 0F ELECTION--MEMBERS OF LOCA
BOARDS OF ELECTION DO HAVE THE PO},,ER THEMSELVES TO
REGISTER PEOPLE. NOW, AS A MATTER OF PRACTICE, MOST
COUNTY ELECTION BOARD MEMBERS THEMSELVES DONIT REALLY GO
OUT AND DO A IVHOLE LOT OF REGISTRATION. THEY ARE THE
ENTITIES THAT APPOINT THE JUDGES OF ELECTION, THE REGIS-
TR,ARS AND THE SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS IN EACH
COUNTY. AND IT IS THOSE THREE GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO PER-
FORM BY FAR THE MAJORITY OF THE REGISTRATION WORK THAT IS
DONE_-THAT IS, THE SPECIAL COMMISSIONERS, THE -JUDGES AND
THE REGISTRARS.
, A AND THE
POLICIES FOR EACH
THE LAW?
LQCAL BOARDS OF ELECTION SET THE
INDIVIDUAL COUNTY. WITHIN THE SCOPE OF
A WELL, WITHIN THE.-FIRST WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS
SET OUT IN THE ELECTION LAW IN THE GENERAL STATUTES AND
ALSO WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS IMPOSED BY THE STATE BOARD.
A BUT FOR EXAMPLE, AT THAT TIME THE LOCAL BOARDS
COULD LET PRECINCT REGISTRARS GO OUT OF THEIR PRECINCTS
OR NOT? AND THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE STATE BOARD
COULD DICTATE AT THAT TIME?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX- ARIZONA
A THAT IS AS OF NOVEMBER 1981?
A THAT IS RIGHT.
A THAT I S CORRECT. WHAT WE COULD DO ABOUT I T AT
THAT TIME WAS TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO THE COUNTY
BOARDS AS TO WHAT WE T.'OULD LIKE FOR THEM TO DO.
a AND THEY COULD FOLLOW IT---
A (TruTTNPOSING) AND THEN, AF COURSE, I RECOUNTE
THAT SUBSEQUENTLY '/lE RECOMMENDED LEGI SLAT ION ON IT. AND
THEN THE GENERAL ASSEI'1BLY ACTED.
a AND THEY COULD FOLLOW IT OR NOT FOLLOh' rr?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THEY HAVE THE POWER TO APPOINT SPEC.IAL
REGISTRARS; ISNIT THAT CORRECT?
A EVERY COUNTY ELTCTTOru BOARD IN NORTH CAROLINA,
PROVIDED THEY DO IT ON THE PROPER TIMETABLE, CAN APPOINT
SPTCTAT REGISTRARS AT THEIR DISCRETIoN; EXCEPT THAT IN
COUNTIES THAT HAVE 15 OR MORE PRECINCTS THERE IS A
MINIMUM REQUIREMENT THAT AI LEAST TWO SPECIAL REGISTRA.
TION COMMISSIONERS BE APPOINTED.
A SO IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN 15 PRECINCTS, YOU HAV
TO HAVE TWO SPECIAL REGISTRARS?
A RIGHT.
A BUT HOW I'4ANY ABOVE TWO IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE
DISCRETION OF THE LOCAL BOARDS?
A LEGALLY,
-IT
IS ENTIP.ELY I^,iTHIN THE DISCRETION
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
oF THE LOCAL BOARr)S. NOW, I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION IN TH
WAY, BECAUSE AS A MATTER OF PRACT]CE I WILL TELL YOU
FRANKLY THAT LOCAL BOARDS ARE GOING TO PAY SOME ATTENTION
TO WHAT THE STATE BOARD SAYS. AND LOCAL BOARDS ARE ALSO
GOII.JG TO PAY SOME ATTENTION TO WHAT THE RESPECTIVE POLITI
CAL PARTIES IN THE COUNTY SAY.
THE RECOMMENDATIONS TO BE A SPECIAL REGISTRAR
ARE MADE BY A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRATIC COUNTY CHAIRMAN.
AND IN ORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES, THE COUNTY ELECTION BOARD
MEI.4BERS ARE GOING TO TEND TO LISTEN TO THE COUNTY CHAIRMA
WHO AFTER ALL IS THE PERSON VIHO RECOMMENDED THEM, YOU
KNOW, FOR THEIR POSITION.
A BUT THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS HAS VERY
LITTLE CONTROL OVER THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE LOCAL PART
CHAIRMEN? YOU CANNOT REQUIRE THE LOCAL PARTY CHAIRMEN
TO RECOMMEND SPECIAL REGISTRARS; CAN YOU?
I CERTAINLY HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE A
PARTY CHAIRMAN TO DO THAT. WE HAVE SUGGESTED IT TO THE
POLITICAL PARTIES. AND I HAVE STAYED PRETTY CLOSELY IN
TOUCH WITH THEM TO TELL THEM THAT THE MORE REGISTRATION
COMMISSIONERS WE HAVE THE BETTER, AS FAR AS I AM CON-
CERNED. AND A LOT OF THEM ARE, YOU KNOW, RECOMMENDING
VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBERS. BUT THE STATE BOARD DOES NOT
LEGALLY CONTROL HOW I'IANY THEY RSCOMMEND.
AI.ID THE LOCAL BOARD HAS A GREAT DEAL OF\o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX. ARIZONA
DISCRETION OVER THE POLICIES ABOUT SPECIAL REGISTRATION
EVENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
WELL, THEY REALLY DONIT HAVE NEARLY THAT MUCH
ANYMORE, BECAUSE--SEE, NOI^' THAT AT OUR SUGGEST ION THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS PROVIDED THAT A REGISTRAR OR A JUDGE
OR A REGISTRATION COMMISSIONER CAN REGISTER ANYWHERE,
REALLY THERE iS NOTHING TO PREVENT A CIVIC GROUP FROM
SIMPLY CALLING FIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SPECIAL REGISTRARS AND
ASKING THEM TO COME OUT TO THE CHURCH OR THE PICI'.IIC OR
WHATEVER IT IS. THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WE WANTED TO
GET THAT CHANGE MADE.
A BUT IN FACT, MANY
ABOUT THAT--THAT YOY HAVE TO
NUMBER OF DAYS IN ADVANCE OR
APPROVAL BEFORE YOU CAN HAVE
I SN I.T THAT TRUE ?
WELL, AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR OUESTION, I DONIT
THINK THAT COUNTY BOARDS ARE PERMITTED TO RESTRICT
REGISTRARS OR SPECIAL REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS FROM
REGISTERING VOTEP.S. THAT WAS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LEGIS
LATION PASSED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
a IS rr YouR TESTIMONY THAT YOU DONIT KNoW OF
ANY COUNTY BOARDS OF ELECTIONS THAT HAVE RULES AND REGU-
LATI ONS ABOUT SPECIAL REGI STRATION EVEI.ITS?
NO. THAT WAS NOT MY TESTIMONY.
COUI.ITIES HAVE RESTRICTIONS
GET PERMISSION A CERTAIN
THAT YOU HAVE TO GET THEIR
A SPECIAL REGISTRATION EVENT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A SO ALL IN ALL, YOU HAD TO APPEAL TO THE LOCAL'
BOARDS FOR COOPERATION IN YOUR CITIZENS AWARENESS YEAR
EFFORTS ?
A CERTAINLY.
A AND THE DIFFICULTY OF THOSE APPEALS WAS ONE OF
THE REASONS WI-IY YOU DECIDED TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE TO
TRY TO GET THE LAI,/S CHANGED?
WELL, FRANKLY, I FELT TIIAT OUR APPEAL HAD BEEN
FAIRLY SUCCESSFUL. I MEAN, DURHAM COUNTY CHANGED THE
RULES AS SOON AS WE ASKED. ALAMANCE COUNTY DID. I.,IONT-
GOMERY COUNTY DID. MARTIN COUNTY DID. I THINK PENDER
COUNTY DID. THERE WERE A FEW COUNTIES WHICH HAD NOT.
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS GOOD POLICY TO HAVE THE SAME RULE
STATEWIDE. SO THAT IS VIHY WE WENT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBL
BUT CERTAINLY IN THE f.4AJORITY OF INSTANCES
WHERE IT WAS A DIRECT. ISSUE AND WE REQUESTED THE CHANGE,
THE BOARDS MADE THE CHANGE WE REQUESTED.
a AND THOSE CHANGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN 1982
PRIMARI LY?
A THE REQUEST WE MADE WAS IN LATE 1981 AND EARLY
1982. SO OBVIOUSLY ALL THE CHANGES MADE IN RESPONSE TO
THAT REQUEST WERE MADE IN 1982. NOW, YOU KNOW, OTHER---
a (tNrrRposING) I AM TALKING ABOUT CHANGES IN
RESPONSE TO YOUR REOUESTS?
YES. . ALL I. MEAN. IS OBVIOUSLY BEFORE NOVEMBF.'R
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
19 8 1 D I FFERENT BOARDS MAY HAVE CHANGEII\ POL I CY AT
r)I FFERENT TIMES BEFORE THE SESSIOI\I STARTED.
a AND DTFFEREftT 3OARDS BEFORE 1981 HAD DIFFERENT
POLICIES?
A YES.
A ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU HAVE HAD COMPLAINTS FROM
BLACK CITIZENS AROUND THE STATE ABOUT PROBLEMS THEY HAVE
HAD WiTH THEIR LOCAL BOARDS OF ELECTIONS; HAVE YOU NOT?
A I HAVF. HAD SOME
A AND IN FACT, YOU HAVE HAD SOME COMPLAINTS
OI.JT OF DURHAI'4 COUNTY; HAVENTT YOU?
A YES.
IT?
a AND THE DURHAIj COUNTY BOARD IS ALL W,tlITE; ISN!
A YES. THE DURHAM COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARD IS ALL
WH I TE.
A AND ONE OF THE COMPLAINTS THAT YOU HAD IN
DURHAM COUNTY WAS THAT THE D.URHAM COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIR
OF BLACK CITIZEI.IS IIJANTED TO GET A COPY OF THE COMPUTER
TAPE I'/ITH THE REGISTERED VOTERS ON IT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS CORRECT. IT IS CORP.ECT THAT THAT IS A
COMPLAINT I RqCEIVED. YES.
A AND THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD REFUSED TO GIVE
THAT TAPE?
A THEY DID II.IITIALLY.
A P. O. Bor 2ttal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457,1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A AIID INI FACT, A LAWSUIT WAS FILED TO FORCE
THEM TO GIVE THE TAPE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A AND IN ADDITION, YOU INTERVENED?
A WHAT HAPPENED !.{AS THAT A GROUP OTHER THAN THE
BLACK GROUP THAT ORIGII.IALLY P.EOUESTED THE TAPE FILED A
LAVJSUIT AGAINST THE BOARD. I INDICATED TO THE BOARD THAT
I THOUGHT THE TAPE SHOULD BE PROVIDED.
AI.{D THEN I HAD A RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE
STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS MANDATI.NG THAT ALL THE COUNTIES
WHO HAD COI.IPUTERIZED TAPES PROVI.DE A COPY To ANY GROUP
THAT REQUESTED A TAPE AT COST. AND WE ISSUED THAT
DIRECTIVE TO ALL THE COUNTY BOARDS I'N THE STATE. AND AT
THAT POINT, THE DURHAM COUI.ITY BOARD GAVE THE GROUP THE
TAPE.
. A AND THAT WAS SOMETIME LATE IN 1982; IS THAT
RIGHT?
A NO. I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN 198].
A HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY OTHER COMPLAINTS ABOUT
THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD?
A THE ONLY OTHER ONES I RECALL WOULD HAVE RELATE
TO THAT ISSUE ABOUT WHERE THE REGI.STRARS AND SPECIAL
REGISTRATION COMMISSIQNERS COULD REGISTEP. PEOPLE. WHEN
WE STARTED THE CITIZEI'I A''ARENESS.YEAR EFFORT THAT I
TSSTI FIED ABO(JT, I At1_SURE TH,qT SOI'IE BLACK pEOpLE FROM
F l. O. lor Zra!6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DURHAM TALKED TO ME ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE COUNTY
BOARD OVER THERE STILL HAD THOSE RESTRICTIONS. AND I
WOULD CERTAINLY CLASSIFY THAT AS A COMPLAINT.
A AND THEY SAID TO YOU THAT THEY HAD BEEN
TRYING TO GET THE LOCAL BOARD TO EASE UP THqIR RESTRIC_
TIONS. AND THE LOCAL BOARD HAD REFUSED TO DO SO; I5 THAT
CORRECT.-OR I.JORDS TO THAT EFFECT?
WELL, THAT THEY WANTED THE P.ESTRI CTIONS
CHANGED. YEAH.
A AND THAT THEY' HAD MADE EFFOCTS TO HAVE THE
RESTRICTIOI.IS CHANGED?
AYES-.ALTHoUGHITISALITTLqBITcoMPLICATED
IN THIS SENSE: THAT THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD, THOUGH IT
DOESN'T HAVE A BLACK MEMBER NOW, HAS FOR MANY YEARS--UP
TO LIKE THE LAST TWO--HAS HAD A BLACK MEMBER. IN FACT'
MR.. MARSH, WHO IS A STATE BOARD ME|1BER NOI'J AND \^lHO IS
BLACK, WAS FORMERLY CHAIRMAN OF THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD'
ANDAPPARENTLYsoMEoFTHESEP.ESTRICTIoNS
ORIGII'JATED IN YEARS WHEI'I THERE \{AS A f]LACK MF.MBER ON THE
DURHAI4BoARD.ANDFoRWHATEVERR'EASoN;THERESTRICTIoNI^lA
APPP.OVED OR AGREED TO BY THE BLACK'MEMBqP" OTHER BLACK--
JL,lDCE PH I LL I DS :
A LITTLE RECESS AT THI S TIME.
(TIT PROCEEDING \,IAS
RECOt.IVF.t'IE AT 3"25
(TNTENPOSING). .LETIS TAKE
RECESSED AT l:10 P.M., T0
P.M., THIS SAME DAY.)
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G s 3i25 P.M\
(wHr RE uPot\t,
ROBERT W. SPEARMAI.I
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMFD
THE STAND AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:)
JUDGE PHI LLI PS : COUNSEL AND THE I,.'ITNESS,
I APOLOGIZE FOR INTERRUPTING IN MID-SENTENCE. I HAD
THOUGHT THAT WE WOULD END WITH ONE. IF YOU CAN GET BACK
IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SENTENCE, WE I^,ILL TAKE UP FROM THER
C R o S S --E_X..A._U_I N A T r o N 3:25 p.M.
(RESUMED)-
BY MS. WINNER:
q I BELIEVE THE QUESTION WAS V{HETHER YOU HAD HAD
ANY OTHER COMPLAINTS FROM 3LA.CK PEOPLE IN DUP.HAM COUNTY
ABOUT THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A RIGHT. AND I RESPONDED BY TELLING YOU THAT
SOME BLACK PERSONS HAD COMPLAINED ABOUT THE RESTRICTION
ON REGISTRARS AND JUDGES ABOUT WHETHER THEY COULD
REGISTER OUT OF THE PRECINCT. AND THEN I THINK I FURTHER
SAID THAT THOSE RESTRICTIONS HAD ACTUALLY BEEN IMPLEMENTE
AT A TIME WHEN THERE WAS A BLACK MEMBER AI'ID PERHAPS A
BLACK CHAIRMAN OF THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD.
BtJT NONETHELESS, THEIIS WERE CERTAINLY BLACK
GROUPS WHO OPPOSED THEM. AND AS I HAVE ALREADY TESTIFIED,
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WE REQUESTED THAT THEY BE REMOVED. AND THEY WERE
REMOVED.
A ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN THAT BLACK MEMBER I,.JAS A
MEMBER OF THE BOARD, THERE WAS NO TIME THAT THERE WAS A
BLACK MAJORITY ON THE BOARD; WAS THERE?
A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
A AND WHEN YOU BECAME CHAIRMAN OF THE STATE BOAR
OF E LECT I ONS, THE DURHAI'I COUNTY BOARD WAS ALL WH I TE; I S
THAT RIGHT--IN 1981?
A IT IS CERTAINLY ALL WHITE NOW. I SIMPLY DONIT
RECALL I,JHETHER IT IT,AS AT THAT TIME. IT MAY HAVE BEEN.
A AND THE ALL WHITE BOARD HAS BEEN REAPPOi,NTED
SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN CHAIRMAN OF THE STATE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS; ISNTT THAT RIGHT?
A WELL, NEW BOARD MEMBERS-.-THE TER.MS OF BoARD
MEMBERS EXPIRED IN JUNE OF 198]. AND WE APPOINTED THOSE.
AND THE BOARD THAT WE APPOINTED IS RECOMMENDED BY THE
PARTY, WHO ARE ALL__OR BY THE PARTIES, WHO ARE ALL WHITES.
A IT IS TWO-YEAR TERMS, IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A AND BEFORE AND AFTER JUNE OF '83, IT WAS ALL
WHITE?
A I THINK THAT IS CORRECT. IT IS CERTAINLY
CORRECT THAT IT IS ALL WHITE NOW. AND I BELIEVE IT WAS
ALL WHITE FOR THE PERIOD 1981 TO 198].
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a
CITIZENS
A
a
SPEC IAL
YOU HAVE ALSO HAD COMPLAINTS FROM BLACK
I N WI LSON COUNTY; HAVEN I T YOIJ ?
YES.
AND THOSE COMPLAINTS WERE WITH REGARD
REGISTRATIOI.J DRIVESi IS THAT CORRECT?
THE SPECIFIC COMPLAINT I CAN REMEMBER
TO
WILSON COUNTY HAD TO DO WITH A REGISTRATION DRIVE
OF I.4ONTHS AGO. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO EXPLAIN WHAT
WAS ?
ABOUT
A COUPL
THAT
YES, PLEASE?
ALL RIGHT. THE CCMPLAINT WAS THAT A GROUP
WANTED TO DO A SPECIAL REGISTRATION DRIVE A COUPLE OF
MONTHS AGO IN WILSON COUNTY. AND ACCORDING TO THE COM-
PLAINT THAT I RECEIVED, EITHER THE COUNTY BOARD OR THE
COUNTY SUPERVISOR WAS TELLING THE PEOPLE THAT THEY COULD
NOT. REGISTER TO VOTE.
AND I HAD io,, DI.FFIcULTY UNDERSTANDING How
THAT COULD BE THE CASE. I JOLD THE PERSON !^JHO COMPLAINED
TO ME THAT I WOULD CHECK INTO IT. I CALLED THE SUPERVISO
oF THE WILSON COUI,ITY BOARD. AND AS IT TURNED OUT, WILSoN
COUNTY WAS ABOUT TO HAVE SOME KIND OF SPECIAL ELECTION--
I THINK PERHAPS FOR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS--AN ORIGINAL
ELECTION HAVING BEEI'J DEFERRED BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS UNDER
SECTION 5 OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
THERE I' I PROVISION IN NORTH CAROLINA LAW
a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WHICH SAYS IN SUBSTANCE, YOU HAVE TO REGISTER TO VOTE
AT LEAST 2I DAYS--21 \^/ORKING DAYS--BEFORE AN ELECTION.
SO ROUGHLY SPEAKING, IN THE 3O-DAY PERIOD BEFORE AN
ELECTION YOU ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO REGISTER TO VOTE IN THAT
ELECTION.
THE STATUTES ARE A LITTLE BIT AMBIGUOUS. AND
IT CAN LOOK LIKE IT MEANS THAT ONE ISNIT ELIGIBLE TO
REGISTER TO VOTE AT ALL DURING THAT 3O.DAY PERIOD. HOVI-
EVER, I DID NOT FEEL THAT THAT WAS THE CORRECT II.JTERPRE-
TATION; AND RATHER, THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION 1..,AS YOU
COULD REGISTER TO VOTE IN THAT ]O-DAY PERIOD. YOU JUST
WOULDNIT BE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE IN THAT ELECTION.
THAT WAS THE CONFUSION THAT THE l.IILSON COUNTY
BOARD HAD. AND THEY SAID THAT THEY DIDNIT KNOW WHICH WAS
THE LAW AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. AND THEY THOUGHT PEOPLE
PROBABLY I^JERENI T SUPPOSED TO REGISTER DURING THAT 3O-DAY
PERIOD. I TOLD THEM THAT 1^,AS I^/RONG AND THAT THE PEOPLE
COULD REGISTER TO VOTE DURI^NG THAT PERIOD, THOUGH THEY
WOULD NOT BE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE IN THE ELECTION THAT WAS
COMING UP THREE I'IEEKS LATER.
AND I BELIEVE THAT UNTA]'JGLED THE CONFUSION.
AND THE REGISTRATION WAS PERMITTED.
aTHATWASNoTTHEFIRSTCoMPLAINTTHATYoUHAI)
GOTTEN FROM BLACK CITIZENS IN WiLSON COUNTY; WAS IT?
A THAT iS IHE ONLY SPECIFIC ONE I CAN REMEMBER
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AT THIS TIMT, I WOULD NOT TESTIFY THAT THAT IS THE ONL
COMPLAIT\IT I HAVE RECEIVED FR(.)].Ji WILSON COUNTY, BECAUSE YoU
CAN APPRECIAI.E i GET AII I:NORMOUS NUMBER OF LETTERS AND
TELEPHONE Ci\L.LS ABOUT EI..,.CT ION MATTERS ALL OVER THE STATE
WHICH DONIT JUST INVOLVE REGISTRATION, BUT LOTS OF THINGS
AND IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE I HAVE P.ECEIVED
CTHER COMPLAINTS OR QUESTIONS ABOUT WILSON COUNTY. I
DON?T AT THIS MOMENT RECALL ANOTHER SPECIFIC ONE.
A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION ABOUT
SOME PROBLEMS THAT EDGECOMBE COUNTY IS HAVING WITH THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?
R I GHT.
THAT I S NOT THE ONLY'PROBLEM WITH THE JUSTICE
ARE Ai\,ARE OF I N EDGECOMBE COUNTY; I SDEPARTMENT THAT YOU
IT?
I DO NOT KNO\^I ALL THE DETAILS OF COFIqF.SPONDENC
OR PROBLEMS BETWEEN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AT.II) I DGECOII1BE
COUNTY. I KNOW ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR MATTER 8ET-AUSE 1T
WAS REPORTED TO ME BY THE CHAI.RMAN OF THE F,DGECOMBE COUI.IT
BOARD OF ELECTIONS.
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I WOULD SAY THI S, TOO: HAVE_-A'NUMBER OF
HAVE CONTACTED ME
VERY FREQUENTLY
BLA,i ( GROUPS HAVE WRITTEN ME OR
SOMiiHING IN EDGECOMBE COUNTY.
GF-T SUCH RE,)UESTS OR rlorill!-AINTS, Tl-lE STANDARD
IS THAT IT IS_FREOUENTLY A LETTER TO THE UNITED
I
oI il1!:S
A i),4), , f
iJiJEN I
FORMAT
PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TBANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL OR
ATTORNEY GENERAL IN CHARGE
TO ME AND TO GOVERNOR HUNT
GEORGE GOODWI N, t^/HO I S THE
COUNTY.
PERHAPS TO THE ASSISTANT
OF CIVIL RIGHTS I^/ITH A COpy
AND TO BEN RUFFIN AND TO
CHAIRMAN DOWN IN EDGECOMBE
AND I HAVE HAD A NUI4BER OF SUCH THINGS. AND
SOMETIMES THE LETTERS HAVE PROBABLY BEEN DIRECTED TO THE
LOCAL COUNTY BOARD WITH COPIES TO ME AND THOSE OTHER
PEOPLE. SO YES--THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF ITEMS OF
CORRESPONDENCE LIKE THAT.
MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE
WITNESS?
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
BY MS. WINNER:
YOU MAY.
A I HAND YOU A LETTER THAT APPEARS TO BE FROM
MR. MARVI.N BULLOCK TO THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
JUSTICE ON JANUARY 23RD, 1gg2 AND ASK yOU IF yOU HAVE
EVER SEEN THAT BEFORE?
A CAN I TAKE A MINUTE TO LOOK AT IT?
a suRELY.
(WITNESS PERUSES DoCUMENT.)
A YES. A COPY OF THIS WAS SENT TO ME. AND IN
FACT, I BELIEVE THIS PROBABLY WAS THE FIRST CONTACT OR
COMPLAINT I HAD FROM EDGECOMBE COUNTY. THTS IS THE
GENTLEMAN WHO SAYS HE_IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE GOLDEN
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PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
EAGLES MOTORCYCLE CLUB AND THAT HE HAS FORMED A
COALITION. HE WANTED TO HELP PEOPLE REGISTER TO VOTE.
YES.
MS. WINNER: MAY I HAVE THIS MARKED
AS AN EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT MAY BE MARKED FOR
IDENTIFICATION.
(pI.RINTIFFS EXHIBIT NO. 86 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
BY MS. WINNER:
a Do You KNoIJ MR. BULLOCK TO BE BLACK--MR. MARVI
BULLOCK ?
A I DO NOT REMEMBER WHETHER I HAVE PERSONALLY
MET HI.M.
A IN THAT LETTER DID MR. BULLOCK COMPLAIN ABOUT
GETTING INCONSISTENT INFORMATION FROM THE BOARD OF
ELECTIONS?
A .JUST A T4INUTE. .LET ME READ THE LETTER.
(WITNTSS PERUSES DOCUMENT. )
ALL RIGHT. NOW, EXCUSE ME. WHAT WAS YOUR
QUESTION?
A DID MR. BULLOCK COMPLAIN ABOUT BLACK CITIZENS
OR OTHER CITIZENS GETTING INCONSISTENT INFORMATION FROM
THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A SPECIFICALLY HE STATES IN THIS LETTER, QUOTE:
F ?. O. lor 2a16ll
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PREC!SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
II. . . WE ARE RECEIVING CONFLICTING INFORMATION;
FROM THE SUPERVI SOR OF THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY
BOARD OF ELECT IONS. ''
A DID HE ALSO COMPLAIN THAT THE BOARD OF ELEC-
TIONS WOULD NOT LET PRECINCT REGISTRARS REGISTER PEOPLE
OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOMES?
A I^,ELL, HE APPEARS TO SAY HERE THAT SOME ELEC-
TION JUDGE TOLD HIM THAT HE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT HE, THE
JUDGE, COULD NOT REGISTER VOTERS IN HIS HOME.
A AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS ERRONEOUS? HE IS
AL LOIVED TO REG I STER PEOPLE I N H I S HOME ?
A SURE. SURE.
A AND THEY ALSO COMPLAIN THAT THEY WOULD GO TO
THE REGISTRARS' HOMES AND THEY OFTEN WOULD NOT BE AT
HOME TO KEEP THEIR APPOINTMENTS?
WELL, I DONIT SEE A COMPLAINT IN HERE THAT
SOMEBODY DIDNIT KEEP AN APPOINTMENT. BUT I SEE A COM-
PLAINT THAT SOMEONE SAID THEY HAD HARD TIME LOCATING
REGISTRAR WALSTON. AND WE HAVE BEEN TOLD, I'SHE IS OUT
OF TOWN, WE DONIT HAVE TIME, OR HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO
LOCATE HER. 'I
A AND THERE IS THE FURTHER COMPLAINT THAT SOME-
TIMES PEOPLE WERE TOLD BY REGIS.TRARS THAT THEY DIDNTT
HAVE ANY REGISTRATION CARDS; AND THEREFORE, THAT THEY
COULDNIT REGISTER?(o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157\
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES. THERE IS A COMPLAINT TO THAT EFFECT.
a DID yOU HAVE OCCASION TO TALr, TO MR. GOODWIN,
THE CHAIRMAN OF THE EDGECOMBE COUNTY BOARD, ABOUT THESE
COMPLA I NTS ?
A I BELIEVE I WENT OVER ALL--AS I RECALL, I
THINK I WENT OVER ALL OF THESE THINGS WITH MR. GOODWIN.
AND YOU INSTRUCTED HIM TO CORRECT THEM?
SURE. WELL, I INSTRUCTED HIM TO CORRECT ANY
OF THEM WHICH I THOUGHT WERE VALID COMPLAINTS. I MEAN,
IN SOME SITUATIONS--I THINK I.TITH ONE OF THE REGISTRARS HE
INDICATED TO ME THAT THE PERSON DID HAVE THE CARDS. AND
SO SOMEBODY WAS SAYING THAT SHE DID HAVE THE CARDS. AND
SOMEBODY WAS SAYING THAT SHE DIDNIT HAVE THE CARDS. SO
I THINK IN THAT CASE WHAT I ENDED UP TELLING MR. GOODWIN
WAS TO BE SURE THAT ALL THE REGISTRARS AND .JUDGES DID,
IN FACT, HAVE THE NUMBER OF CARDS THEY NEEDED.
A FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE PERSON SEEKING
TO REGISTER, IT IS IRRELEVANT WHETHER THE REGISTRAR HAS
THE CARDS OR NOT IF THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO REGISTER;
ISNIT THAT RiGHT?
a
A WELL, I WOULD CERTAINLY AGREE
A THESE ARE .JUST A FEW OF MANY
YOU HAVE HAD FROM AROUND THE STATE ABOUT
ELECTIONS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YOU MEAN, _IS THIS LETTER ONE
l^l I TH THAT .
COMPLAINTS THAT
LOCAL BOARDS OF
OF MANY COMPLAI
F P. O. Lr tl63
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THAT I HAVE HAD?
a THE DURHA|4 COUNTY PROBLEM AND THE WTLSON
COUNTY PROBLEM AND THIS EDGECOMBE COUNTY PROBLEM ARE JUST
A FEW OF MANY COI4PLAINTS THAT YOU HAVE HAD FROM AROUND
THE STATE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A yES. I wouLD sAy rHAT IS coRREcr. ALMosr
ANYTII4E SOMEBODY IS UPSET ABOUT ANY ELECTION MATTER IN
ANY OF THE 1OO COUNTIES, THEY CERTAINLY FEEL FREE TO CALL
ME AND TELL ME ABOUT IT.
A AND YOU ARE COUNTING MANIY OF THOSE COMPLAINTS
TO BE VALiD AND SOME OF THEM TO BE INVALID?
A THAT IS TRUE. SOMETIMES THEY ARE RIGHT.. AND
SOMETIMES THEY ARE \^JRONG.
q CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT
NUMBER 14*.-
JUDGE PHILLIPS.: (TNTTNPOSING) DIE YOUR
ANSWER THERE DIRECTED TO THE qUESTION OF COMPLAINTS HAVE
TO DO WITH RACIAL PROBLEMS?
THE VJI TNESS : NO, YOUR HONOR. NO. I
RECEIVE COI4PLAINTS ON ALMOST ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH
ELECTION LAWS IN NORTH CAROLiNA, INCLUDING A CAI'IDIDATE
WHO COMPLAINED TO ME THAT HE OR S'HE HAS LOST AN ELECTION.
SO I CERTAINLY DIDN'T MEAN THAT THESE ALL WERE RACIAL
COMPLAI NTS
THE MA.JORITY OF THE COMPLAINTS I GET HAVE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
JUDGE DUPREE: OCCASIONALLY YOU WILL
GET ONE FROM A REPUBLICAN.
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE
BEEN KNOWN T0 RECEIVE THOSE, TOO.
BY MS. WINNER:
A BUT SOME OF THE ONES THAT YOU GET FROM BLACK
PEOPLE YOU HAVE FOUND TO BE VALID COMPLAINTS?
A YES.
a ALL RTGHT. NOW, CALLING YOUR ATTENTION---
A (tNrrRposING) FoR EXAMPLE, wHEN BLACK PEoPLE
COMPLAINED ABOUT THIS PROBLEM ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO
REGISTER PEOPLE OUT OF THE PRECINCT, I THOUGHT THAT WAS A
VALID COMPLAINT. IT WASNIT VALID IN THE SENSE THAT THE
PRACTICE VIOLATED ANY EXISTING LAW. BUT I THOUGHT THAT
IT.WAS A PRACTICE AND LAW THAT NEEDED TO BE CHANGED,
BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE.REGISTRATION EASIER. SO WE GOT IT
CHANGED. SO I CERTAINLY WQULD HAVE CONSIDERED THAT A
VALID COMPLAINT.
A AND THE REASON THAT THAT IS IMPORTANT IS
BECAUSE TO HAVE ANY KIND OF SPECIAL REGISTRATION EVENT AT
A CHURCH OR A SHOPPII"IG CENTER, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
REGISTER PEOPLE FROM MORE THAN ONE PRECINCT; IS THAT
CO RRE CT ?
A I \^IOULD SAY FOR PRACTICALPURPOSES--YES.
A P, O. Aq ,'lG!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I
A
MEAN, ONE MIGHT HITVE A CHURCH THAT GREW ENTIRELY FRO
PRECIT'ICT. BUT OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS THE REASON YOU WANT.
NOW, CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTSI
EXHIBIT NUMBER 14, FIRST OF ALL, THE PERCENT INCREASE
INDICATED ON THAT TABLE AT THE LINE THAT SAYS ITPERCENT
INCREASE, FEBRUARY 9, '82, TO OCTOBER 4, '82," IS THE
PERCENT OF THE PREVIOUSLY REGISTERED VOTERS. IT IS NOT
THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATION; IS THAT
CORRECT ?
A AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION, THE ANSWER IS
YES. IT WOULD BE THE INCREASE OVER THE BASE NUMBER FOR
9/2/82.
SO IF THERE HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN 1OO BLACK
REGISTERED VOTERS IN NORTH CAROLINA AND YOU REGISTERED
5O MORE, THAT NUMBER WOULD APPEAR AS 5O PERCENT?
THAT WOULD BE A 5O PERCENT INCREASE. RIGHT.
AND SIMILARLY, IF THERE WERE A MUCH LARGER
NUMBER OF I^,HITE VOTERS REGISTERED, THEN THE SAME NUMBEP.
OF PEOPLE WOULD TURN OUT TO BE A MUCH LOWER PERCENT?
A YES. I MEAN, AS YOU CAN TELL FROM THIS CHART,
THERE l{ERE 119r 000 ADDITIONAL WHITES REGISTERED, WHICH
CAME TO 5.7 PERCENT. THERE WERE 68,500-SOME ADDITIONAL
BLACKS REGISTERED, WHICH CAME TO A 17 PERCENT INCREASE.
A THAT IS, THIS EFFORT OF YOURS REGISTERED
ROUGHLY TWICE AS MANY I^,HITE PEOPLE AS BLACK PEOPLE; IS
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976-4571
PI,|oENIX ARIZONA
THAT CORRECT?
A WELL, IF YOU ATTRIBUTE EVERYBODY V/HO REGIS-
TERED BETWEEN FEBRUARY I9B2 TO OCTOBER 1982 AS BEING
OUR EFFORT. AND THAT MAY BE A LITTLE BIT PRESUMPTUOUS.
A LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION: BETWEEN
FEBRUARY I82 AND OCTOBER 182 ROUGHLY TWICE AS MANY WHITE
PEOPLE REGISTERED AS BLACK PEOPLE?
A YES.
A AND IN FACT, ALMOST ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE
OR THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO REGISTERED REGI.STERED BETWEEN
FEBRUARY OF t82 AND JUNE 0F '82; IS THAT CORRECT?
A WELL, I WOULDNT T SAY TTALMOST ALL. rt IT. LOOKS
LIKE FROM THESE FIGURES THAT APPROXIMATELY 54,000 NON-
WHITES REGISTERED IN THE FEBRUARY TO JUNE PERIOD; AND
THEN THAT ABOUT 13,000 TO 14,000 BLACKS REGISTERED IN
THE JUNE TO OCTOBER P.ERIOD.
a AND THAT I S COMPARED WITH APPP.OXIMATELY 40r 000
WHITE PEOPLE WHO REGISTERED IN THE .'UNE TO OCTOBER
P ER I OD; I S TI-IAT CORRECT ?
A YES. APPROXIMATELY 40,000 WHITE PEoPLE
REGISTERED IN THE JUNE TO OCTOBER PERIOD.
a Now, oN THis SHEET YOU HAVE NON-WHITE VOTERS
REG I STERED ?
A YES.
A AND THAT_INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT BLACK?ta
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YES. THAT WOULD INCLUDE--I THINK STATISTI-
CALLY THE ONLY SIGNIFICANT GROUP THAT WOULD INCLUDE WOUL
BE INDIANS. THE ONLY STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT NON-BLACK
GROUP THAT WOULD BE INCLUDED WOULD BE INDIANS.
WHEN IS PURGING DONE IN NORTH CAROLINA?
WELL, IT IS DONE AFTER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
SO IT WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETIME EARLY IN 1981?
T GUESS LATE I80 OR EARLY I8I.
1982,
LAT IVE
a AND BETWEEN EARLY | 81 OR LATE 1980 AND FEBRU
THERE HAVE BEEN NO STATEWIDE OR FEDERAL OR LEGIS-
RACES; HAVE THERE BEEN?
A BETWEEN WHAT PERIODS?
A BETWEEN THE TIME OF THE PURGING AND FEBRUARY
THAT CORRECT?
NO--THAT IS
1982, THERE HAD BEEN NO MAJOR ELECTIONSi IS
A THERE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN
BASICALLY CORRECT.
THERE WERE NO FEDERAL ELECTIONS? THERE WERE
THERE WERE NO CONGRESSIONALNO STATEWIDE ELECTIONS?
E LECT I ONS ?
THAT IS CORRECT.
a so You woulD EXPECT THE-.-AND IT IS NORMALLY
TRUE THAT THE HIGHEST VOTER REGISTRATION TIME IS THE TIME
I}{MEDIATELY AN ELECTION; I S THAT CORRECT?
THAT TENDS TO BE SO.
SO YOU WOULD EXPECT FEBRUARY I 82 TO BE A
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
RELATIVELY LOIt POINT IN REGISTRATION--THAT I S, AFTER
A PURGE AND BEFORE A NEW ROUND OF ELECTIONS; IS THAT
CORRE CT ?
A I THINK THAT WOULD BE RELATIVELY FAIR.
a Now, Do you HAVE BEFORE YOU THE 1980 REGISTRA
TION FIGURES?
A NO.
MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE
W I TNESS ?
.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : YOU MAY APPROACH THE
W I TNESS .
BY MS. WINNER:
a IS THIS THE OCTOBER 6, 1980, REGISTRATION
FIGURES FROM THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS?
A WELL, I WOULD SAY IT CERTAINLY APPEARS TO BE.
. a Do you RECoGNTZE IT TO BE THEIR TYPICAL FORMAII
A IT CERTAINLY APPEARS TO BE. YES.
A WHAT IS THE NUMBER OF BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS
IN OCTOBER 19BO?
A ACCORDING TO THIS, THE NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS
I S 419,713 .
a LooKING AT THE OCTOBER I 82 FIGURES FOR BLACK
REGISTERED VOTERS, WHAT IS THE NUMBER OF BLACK REGISTERE
VOTERS IN OCTOBER OF 1982?
A IT IS 451,_609.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a Now, couLD you cALCULATE WHAT THE Ot nreRrrucd
BETWEEN THOSE TWO FIGURES IS?
A WELL, THE DIFFERENCE WOULD JUST BE APPROXI-
MATELY 12,000.
A ALL RIGHT. SO WE HAVE AN INCREASE BETWEEN
ocroBER 1980 AND ocroBER 1982 oF 12,000 BLACKS; IS THAT
CORRECT ?
A BASED UPON THOSE TWO SHEETS--YES.
A DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO DOUBT THE ACCURACY
OF THESE SHEETS?
A NO.
a Do you KNow wHAT THE vorING AGE popuLATroN--
THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION...OF NORTH CAROLINA IS?
A NO. I IMAGINE IT COULD .PROBABLY BE CALCULATED
FROM SOME OF THE STATISTICS CONTAI.NED IN DEFENDANTSI
EXHIBIT 14. BUT I DONTT KNOW IT.
A YOU SAID THAT IN FEBRUARY OF '82, 42 PERCENT
OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION WAS REGISTERED?
A YES.
A AND THE NUMBER OF BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS--OR
NON-WHITE REGiSTERED VOTERS-*AT THAT .TTME WAS ABOUT
400r000?
A UH-HUH.
a so rHERE l^JoulD BE AT LEAST 800,000 VOTING AGE
POPULATION THAT IS TLACK; IS THAT CQRRECT?
F P. O, !q tta3
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or i,tl(t
lJ irbrsh. Nonh c.'ollE 2r0tt
I I^'OULD THINK SO. YES.
a IF you REGISTERED 12,000 OR MORE BLACK VOTERS
IN A TWO-YEAR PERIOD, THAT WOULD BE AN AVERAGE OF 61000
BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS A YEAR; IS THAT RIGHT?
A IF yOU REGISTERED 12r000 PEOPLE IN TWO YEARS,
wouLD THAT BE AN AVERAGE 0F 6,000 PER YEAR? YES.
AT THAT RATE, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HO\^' LONG
IT WOULD TAKE THE BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS TO GET UP TO
6O PERCENT, WHICH IS WHAT THE WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS
WERE IN 1982?
A THE BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS ARE THE ONES WHO
ARE ALREADY REGISTERED. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT UNBEGIS-
TERED BLACK VOTERS?
A LET ME REPHRASE THAT QUESTION. IF YOU REGIS-
TERED 6,OOO NEW BLACK VOTERS A YEAR, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA
HOW, LONG IT WOULD TAKE TO GET THE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK
VOTING POPULATION THAT IS REGISTERED TO VOTE UP TO 60
PERCENT ?
NO. I HAVENIT DONE THAT CALCULATION.
THE GAP--6,000 IS SoMEWHAT LESS THAN 1 PERCENT
; ISN'T IT?
UH-HUH.
OKAY. SO I F WE SAY, .JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THI S
THAT YOU HAVE REGI STERED 1 PERCENT OF THE BLA
VOTERS I! A YEAR--OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE
A
a
oF Soor o0o
A
a
1 PERCENT,
REGI STEREDtj
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
POPULATION IN A YEAR--DO YOU THINK THAT THAT IS FAIR?
A DO I THINK WHAT IS FAIR?
a oKAy. IF you HAVE REGISTERED 6,000 BLACK
VOTERS IN A YEAR, IS THAT APPROXIMATELY 1 PERCENT OF THE
BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION--SLIGHTLY LESS THAN 1 PERCEN
OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION?
WELL, IT IS WHATEVER THE STATISTICS COME TO.
BUT THERE WAS A 20 PERCENT GAP BETWEEN THE
BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS AND THE WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS
IN l9B2i WASNr T THERE?
A THERE WAS A ENP OF APPROXIMATELY 20 PERCENT
WHEN ONE COI.4PARES THE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE PERSONS OF
VOTING AGE WHO WERE REGISTERED I,'ITH THE PERCENTAGE OF
BLACK PERSONS OF VOTING AGE WHO WERE REGISTERED.
AT THE BEGINNING OF I9B2?
AS OF FEBRUARY 1982; RIGHT.
SO IF YOU REGISTER 1 PERCENT OF THOSE A YEAR,
IT WILL TAKE 20 YEARS TO CLOSE THAT GAP; IS THAT RIGHT?
A IF YOU MADE UP I{HAT YOU DESCRIBE AS--IF YOU
CLOSED 1/2OTH OF THE GAP EVERY YEAR, IT WOULD TAKE 20
YEARS. YES.
A NOW, LOOKING AT THE SECOND PAGE OF DEFENDANTSI
EXHIBIT NUMBER 14, IN MECKLENBURG AND WAKE COUNTIES IN
1982, THE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION
THAT WAS REGISTERED_TO VOTE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS THAN
'O
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o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THE PERCENTAGE OF TH5 WHITE VOTING AGE POPULATION THAT
WAS REGISTERED TO VOTE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A AS OF FEBRUARY L992--IS THAT YOUR QUESTION?
a YES?
A YES. THAT WOULD BE TRUE FOR BOTH COUNTIES
AT THAT TIME.
A WHAT WERE THE FIGURES FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A THE FIGURES ON THIS EXHIBIT FOR MECKLENBURG
FOR PERCENTAGE OF WHITES--PERCENTAGE OF ELIGIBLE WHITES
REGISTERED AS OPPOSED TO PERCENTAGE OF ELIGIBLE BLACKS
REGISTERED-.IS THAT YOUR QUESTION?
a I BELIEVE THE EXHIBIT SAYS ,'NoN-WHITES..'r BUT
THAT IS THE QUESTION.
A ALL RIGHT. THE FIGURE ON HERE IS 43.8 PERCENT
FOR BLACKS IN MECKLENBURG; AND AT THAT SAME TIT4E FOR
WHITES IN MECKLENBURG, 77.3. AND THE FIGURES ARE ABOUT
THE SAI'48 ORDER OF MAGNTTUDE FOR WAKE COUNTY. THE FIGUP,E
FOR BLACKS, IS 41.9 AND FOR.l^,HITES IS 7I.3.
a AND THE INCREASE FROM FEBRUARY 182 TO oCTOBER
,82 INCLUDED MORE WHITE PEOPLE THAN BLACK PEOPLE, IS THA
CORRECT ?
A NOI^" IS YOUR QUESTION WITH RESPECT TO WAKE AN
ME CKLENBURG ?
a FoR MqCKLENBURG COUNTY ONLY--I AM SORRY?
A OKAY. IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY ONLY, THERE I^IAS
A P. O. &r 2ilft
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LARGER ABSOLUTE INCREASE IN WHITE VOTERS THAN THERE WA
IN BLACK VOTERS. THE PERCENTAGE INCREASE WAS GREATER
FOR BLACK VOTERS.
A THAT IS NOT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTING AGE
POPULAT ION, BUT THE pERCENTAG,E OF THE pREVIOUS___
A (TNTTcpoSING) pTBceNTAGE oVER THE PRIoR
NUMBER OF REGISTERED BLACK VOTERS. YES.
A AND IN FACT, OVER TWICE AS MANY WHITE PEOPLE
REGISTERED AS BLACK PEOPLE DURING THAT PERIOD?
A YES. THAT IS CORRECT--FOR MECKLENBURG.
A AND IN WAKE COUNTY, IT IS TRUE THAT ROUGHLY
TWICE AS MANY WHITE PEOPLE AS BLACK PEOPLE REGISTERED
DURING THAT PERIOD?
A YES. THAT IS CORRECT. AND THE FIGURES FOR
WAKE WERE GENERALLY COMPARABLE ON THE PERCENTAGES AND TH
ABSOLUTE NUMBERS TO MECKLENBURG.
a Now, THE NEXT GROUP OF COUNTIES--DURHAM, NASH,
EDGECOMBE, \,TILSON AND HALIFAX--ARE ALL OF THOSE COUNTIES
IN THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DI.STRICT?
A I BELIEVE SO.
a Do you KNow wHo THE CANDIDATES FOR CONGRESS
WERE IN THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN 1982?
A WELL, LET!S SEE. MR. NARRON WAS ONE. MR.
MICHAUX \^JAS ONE. VALENTINE WAS ONE. I THINK THERE WERE
SOME OTHERS AT VARIOUS POINTS IN THE TI,JO PRIMARIES.
F P, O. lor l)tlas
lJ i.fdoi. raonh Cadlm 2ilil
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\
a PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BUT IT BOILED DOWN TO A SECOND PRIMARY
BETWEEN MR, VALENTINE AND MR. MICHAUX; IS THAT CoRRECT?
A IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THAT DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY TOOK PLACE IN .JUN
OF 1982; IS THAT CORRECT?
I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.
AND YOUR JUNE FIGURES WERE THE CLOSING FIGURES
FOR THAT PRIMARY?
A YES. THE FIGURES THAT ARE ON THE FIRST PAGE
OF DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 14 BESIDE THE DATE 6/I/82..THOSE
SHOULD BE THE CLOSING JUNE FIGURES FOR THE PRIMARY.
A ARE YOU AWARE THAT MR. MICHAUX WAS A POPULAR
CANDIDATE FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN THAT DISTRTCiT
YES.
DO YOU ATTRIBUTE ANY OF THIS INCREASE IN
REG.ISTRATION DURING THAT TIME PERIOD I.N THOSE COUNTIES
TO THE PRESENCE OF NE. MICHAUX AS A CANDTDATE?
A I I^,OULD THINK TTIAT CERTAINLY WAS A FACTOR, IN
CAUSING THE INCP.EASE. HIS CAMPAIGN V'AS CERTAINLY VERY
INTERESTED IN REGISTRATION AND PARTICULARLY IN INCREASING
BLACK REGISTRATION, BECAUSE IT LIKE MANY OF THE OTHER
CAMPAIGNS WOULD, YOU KNOW, CONTACT US TO GET INFORMATION
ABOUT REGI STRATION.
A NOW, CITIZENS AI^,ARENESS YEAR WAS A SPECIAL
EFFORT BY THE STATE_BOARD OF ELECTIONS, IS THAT COP.RECT?
F P. O. lor 2.ICS
lJ i|hadr rao.,l C.rclm 2rlrr
l^t rl-rJtL)
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|}
PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI,OENIX. ARIZONA
YES.
A DO YOU THINK IT IS
AN INCREASE IN THE EFFORT TO
OVER WHAT THE STATE HAD BEEN
A I THINK THAT WOULD
A IS IT A CONTINUING
CONTINUING THE EFFORT?
SAFE TO CHARACTERIZE IT AS
GET CITIZENS TO REGISTER
DOING PRIOR TO THAT TIME?
PROBABLY BE FAIR TO SAY.
EFFORT? ARE YOU STILL
A YES. WE PROBABLY T.JILL NOT USE THAT PARTICULA
NAME. BUT THE EFFORT OBVIOUSLY WILL CONTINUE. AS I
INDICATED EARLIER, WE HAVE JUST GOTTEN A LOT OF NEW
LEGISLATION PAST THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. AND ABOUT A
WEEK.-THE APPOINTMENTS ARE COMING UP NOW FOR SPECIAL
REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS TO SERVE THE NEXT TI.IO.YEAR
CYCLE. AND I SENT A LETTER TO ALL THE COUNTY ELECTION
BOARDS ABOUT A WEEK AGO WITH RESPECT TO THE SPECIAL
REGISTRATION COMMi"'O*'*S AND TELLING THEM THAT THE
STATE BOARD STRONGLY ENCOURAGED THEM TO APPOINT SPECIAL
REGI STRAT ION COMMI SS I ONERS.,
SO THE GENERAL EFFORT OF ATTEMPTING TO INT.
CREASE REGISTRATION LEVELS AND THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR
REGISTRATION IS CERTAINLY ONE THAT WILL CONTINUE.
AND THE REAS.ON YOU WILL CONTINUE IT IS BECAUSE
YOU CONSIDER IT TO STILL BE A PP,OBLEM--THE UNDER.REGIS.
TRATION OF PEOPLE IN NORTH CAROLINA--CITIZENS?
A YES. I THINK THAT IS FAIR. BUT WE WILL ALSO
F t. O. lor z.tct
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(.
o PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,1 ArN OFFICE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CONTINUE IT SIMPLY BECAUSE I THINK THAT HIGH LEVELS OF
REGISTRATION--EVEN LEVELS HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL
AVERAGE--ARE AN AFFIRMATIVELY GOOD THING, BOTH FOR THE
STATE AND FOR THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS.
SO IF OUR REGISTRATION LEVELS TOMORROW WERE
67 PERCENT, WHICH IS ABOUT THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, OUR
STATE BOARD WOULD STILL BE TRYING TO INCREASE REGISTRA-
TION LEVELS AND REGISTRATION OPPORTUNITIES.
A AND YOU STILL THINK THAT THE UNDER-REGISTRA-
TION OF BLACK PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR IS A PROBLEM IN THE
STATE; DONrT YOU?
I THINK THAT IS A PROBLEM. I THINK THE UNDER
REGISTRATION OF PEOPLE GENERALLY IN NORTH CAROLINA IS A
PROBLEM. I THINK THE RELATIVELY LOW LEVELS OF REGISTRA-
TION FOR YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE STATE IS A PROBLEM. AND T
wouLD NoT DOUBT THAT THERE MAy BE OTt-tER, yOU KNOW, SUB-
GROUPS I-'HERE IT I S A
'O*'ICULAR
PROBLEM.
BUT IT IS A BIGGER PROBLEM FOR BLACK PEOPLE
AS A WHOLE THAN IT IS FOR WHITE PEOPLE AS A WHOLE?
WELL, I DONIT THINK I.T IS A BIGGER PROBLEM FO
BLACK PEOPLE AS A WHOLE AT ALL IN TERMS OF THEIR HAVING
ACCESS TO REGISTRATIOI.I. I THINK THEY HAVE EVERY OPPOR_
TUNITY TO REGISTER THAT WHITE PEOPLE DO.
IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK PEOPLE:-O
EL IG I BLE BLACK PEOPLE-.-I^/HO ARE IN FACT REGI STERED, AS
F P. O. lor 2tlaC
lJ id.lei, Xorri Crrotnr af0rt
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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ALL OF THESE FIGURES WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SHOW,
THAT CERTAINLY IS LOWER FOR BLACKS THAN IT IS FOR WHITES
IN NORTH CAROLINA.
A AND IT IS STILL A PROBLEM? THAT IS STILL TRUE
TODAY AS IT WAS-_THAT IS STILL TRUE TODAY; IS IT NoT?
A IT IS STILL TRUE TODAY. I THINK IT IS PROBABL
NOT AS TRUE AS IT WAS BEFORE THIS EFFORT.
a Do you KNow WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK
PEOPLE--THE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION
THAT IS REGISTERED TO VOTE TS TODAY?
WE DONTT HAVE ANY COMPREHENSIVE FIGURES, MS.
WINNER, THAT ARE ANY MORE RECENT THAI\I OCTOBER 1982. THE
NEXT ONES WE WILL GET, I BELIEVE, WILL BE WHEN THE BOOKS
ARE CLOSED FOR THE MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS THIS FALL. WE
WILL HAVE ALL THE COUNTY BOARDS REPORT TO US.
- A WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING
AGE PoPULATIoN THAT ,;; REGISTERED To VoTE IN oCToBER
1982? .
A AS I THINK I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I HAVE NOT CAL-
CULATED THAT. IT CAN BE CALCULATED FROM THESE FIGURES.
BUT I HAVENIT CALCULATED I.T.
a so you DoNrT KNow rHE ANSWER TO THAT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A BUT IT IS UNDER 5O PERCENT; ISNIT IT?
A I THINK S-O.
F P. O. lor LlC!
tJ Rd.agh. xo,ur ca,otm 2rrt,
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFF|CE, RAIE|GH, 832.908s
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NOW, CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFSI
EXHIBITS NUMBER 41 AND 42, WERE THESE DOCUMENTS TAKEN
OUT OF THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTION FILES AT YOUR DIREC-
TION?
A YES.
A THAT IS DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 41 AND 42?
A YES.
a wHo wAS THE ACTUAL PERSON t^tHO LOCATED THESE
DOCUMENTS ?
A I BELIEVE THE ACTUAL PERSON WHO LOCATED THEM
WAS MS. LUCILLE SUITER.
A WERE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO HER TO,FIND
THE DOCUMENTS THAT DEALT WITH--WERE THE iNSTRUCTIONS THAT
WERE GIVEN TO HER TO FIND DOCUMENTS THAT DEALT WITH THE
LITERACY REQUIREMENT?
. A YES.
a WERE THE
'
*rr*rar I'oNS TO F r ND THE EARL I EST
DOCUMENTS THAT SHE COULD EI.ND THAT DEALT WITh THE
LITERACY REQUIREMENT?
A I THINK THAT I.S RIGHT.
a oKAy. CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTTFFS'
EXI-IIBIT NUMBER 16-.DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NUMBER 16--YOU
TESTIFIED THAT THERE WERE 37 BLACK MEMBERS OF BOARDS OF
ELECTIONS IN I.IORTH CAROLINA; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THIS IS EXHIBIT 16?
F t. O. lor 2116('
lJ i.hhn No6 C.rolr 2llrt
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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 816.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a YES?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a AND THAT IS OUT OF t00 TOTAL MEMBERS?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a rs THAT t2 PERCENT OR THEREABOUTS?
A THEREABOUTS--A LITTLE OVER 12 PERCENT, I THINK
A AND YOU TESTIFIED THAT THERE WERE 13 BLACK
CHAI RMEN?
A YES. THAT IS CORRECT.
a AND THAT iS OUT OF 100 CHAIRMEN?
A YES. THAT is RrcHT.
a so THAT WOULD BE t3 PERCENT?
A 13 PERCENT.
A NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE SOME BLACK
SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS IN WAKE COUNTY; IS THAT RIGHT?
, A YES.
a THERE IS, IN FACT, ONE BLACK SCHOOL BOARD
MEMBER ?
A MR. MALONE; YEAH.
a our oF SEVEN?
A I THINK THAT I.S. RIGHT.
A AND HE IS ELECTED FROM A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK
SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT; ISNI.T HE?
A UH-HUH.
a I'JAS THAT _A 'rYES"?
F P. O. lor ttt6s
lJ i.hrth, ilonn c.,o{m ,atr
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(
o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES.
A AND YOU ALSO SAID THERE WERE SOME BLACK CITY
COUNCIL MEMBERS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A AT PRESENT I BELIEVE THERE IS ONE BLACK CITY
COUNC I LMAN
A AND HE IS ELECTED FROM A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK
S INGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT?
A HE IS.
A AND THERE ARE SOME AT-LARGE SEATS ON THE
RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL; ARENIT THERE?
THERE ARE.
A AND NONE OF THEM ARE HELD BY BLACK CTTIZENS;
ARE THEY?
A AT PRESENT?
A AT PRESF.NT ?
A NO. I DONIT THINK SO.
a ARE YOU---
A (lrureRposING) .-rn t MI'GHT, JUST TO CLARIFY ONE
FURTHER THING ABOUT THIS EXHIBIT 16 THAT YOU ASKED ME
ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I STATED--I WAS ASKED BEFORE.
BUT ABOUT THE WAKE COUNTY BOARD--MS. GILL IS THE CHAIRMAN
OF THAT BOARD. SHE IS BLACK.
A I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT.
A OKAY.
q THAT IS INCLUDED IN THE 12; ISNrT IT*-OR 13?
F P. O. lor 23!ait
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\
o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IN THE 13; RIGHT.
A NOI." ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE \'OHN BAKER
SHERIFFIS RACE IN 1978 IN WAKE COUNTY'?
A I GUESS GENERALLY.
A DO ]OU KNOW WHAT THE VOTE TOTALS WERE IN THAT
ELECTION?
A NO.
a Do you THINK. THA.T hAKE COUNTY IS A PLACE WHER
VOTERS NORMALLY VOTE ON PARTY LINES?
A NORMALLY VOTE ON PARTY LINES?
a YES?
A YES; I DO
A AND THERE ARE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE DEMOCRATS
THAN REPUBLICANS IN WAKE COUNTY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS TRUE.
. A IF AN ELECTION RETURN SHOWED A ROUGHLY
EQUIVALENT NUMBER OF DEMOCRAT VOTES--VOTES FOR THE
DEMCICR.ATIC CANDIDATE-.-AND VOTES FOR THE REPUBLICAN
CANDIDATE, WOULD THAT I.NDICATE TO YOU THAT SOME DEMO-
CRATS HAD VOTED FOR THE REPUBLICPN CANDIDATE?
A WOULD YOU STATE THAT AGAI'N, NOW?
A IF AN ELECTION RETURN HAD ROUGHLY THE SAME
NUMBER OF VOTES FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CA.NDIDATE AND VOTES
FOR THE REPUBLICAI'I CANDIDATE,.WOULD THAT INDICATE TO YOU
THAT AT LEAST SOME DEMOCRATS HAD VOTED FOR THE REPUBLTCA
F t. O. lq ltlCa
lJ ,llilctr ?{orir C..oaru ,rart
582
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o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CAND I DATE ?
A YES. i THINK THAT I S EXACTLY I^IHY RONALD
REAGAN CARRIED WAKE COUNTY OVER JII'{MY CARTER. SOME OF
THE DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR REAGAN.
A A.ND I F JOHN BAKER I S REPUBL I CAN OPPONENT GOT
WITHII.I A PERCEI.JTAGE OF THE SAME NUMBER OF VOTES, THAT
WOULD INDICATE TO YOU THAT SOME DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR
JOHN BAKERIS REPUBLICAN OPPONENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES. I THINK IT IS--AS YOU NOTE FROM LOOKING
AT THE VOTING STATISTICS, TT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR
A, REPUBLICAN TO I.IIN IN A COUNTYWIDE RACE IN WAKE COUNTY
UNLESS SOME OF THE DEMOCRATIC REGISTRATION VOTES JT
REPUBLiCAN, WHICH HAS CERTAINLY HAPPENED IN !^IAKE COUNTY.
a Do You THINK THAT RACE HAS ATJYTHING TO DO I,iIT
THE REASON THAT THOSE DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR \.,OHI.I BAKERIS
REP.UBLICAN OPPONENT?
A WHEN, NOW?
A I REALLY DONIT KNOW.
MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QuESTIOr.rS.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4:07 P.I4.
3Y MR. t.EONARD:
a cHAiRMAN_SPEARMAN, WoULD YOU TAKE A LOoK FOR
F P. O. Ad 2llc!
Lt R.haoh. l{oilh c.rorl[ 2rGtr
583
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a PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
JUST ONE MOMENT AT DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT NUMBER B, WHICH
IS THE GENERAL INFORMATION ON REGISTRATION? AND JUST
TURN TO PAGES 42 AND 43, IF yOU WOULD. THE THIP.D LINE
FROM THE BOTTOM OF BOTH OF THOSE PAGES SAYS, AND I QUOTE:
IINUMBER OF REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS. 'I OI.I PAGE 42,
REALT I NG TO EDGECOMBE COUNTY I T SAYS II2 8 . I' AND FORSYTH,
IINUMBER OF REGISTRATIONII---
MS . W I NNER : I OB.J ECT TO THE LEAD I NG .
IF MR. LEONARD IS TESTTFYING.--
J UDGE PH J LL I PS : ( T NTERPOS I'NG) OVERRULED .
BY MR. LEONARD:
A II. . . NUMBER OF REG I:STRAT I.ON COMM I SS I ONERS, L7 5,1
IN YOUR TESTIMONY HERE AS Y-OU HAVE USED THE TERM IISPECIAL
REGISTRATION COMMISSIONERS,Il I BELI'EVE-*IS THAT WHAT
THESE LINES MEAN? IS THAT THE NUMBER?
. A YES. THE TERM 'ISPECIAL R.EGISTRATION COMMIS-
SIONER'' AS USED IN THE TESTIMONY AND THE GENERAL STATUTES
HAS THE SAME MEANING AS THE.TERM IN THIS BOOK IIREGISTRA-
TIoN CoMMISSIoNER. ''.
A AND IS THAT, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, CONSISTENT
THROUGHOUT THIS BOOKLET?
A I WOULD THINK SO. YES.
MR. LEONARD: COUNSEL, MAY I HAVE THE
EXHIBIT OR WHATEVER. IT \^,AS YOU SHOWED THE WITNESS?
MS. WINNER: I BELIEVE THE WITNESS HA
-
P. O. lor 2t1d
LJ R.l.lcn, ,aodh Cr.oln. 276fi
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o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
584
IT. I DONTT BELIEVE I TOOK IT BACK FROM THE WITNESS.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a Do you HAVE THE 1gg0 REGISTRATION___
A (TruTTRPOSING) NO. I DON'T HAVE THAT.
MS. WINNER:
YOU MEANT THE LETTER.
I AM SORRY. I THOUGHT
MR. LEONARD: WOULD YOU KINDLY GIVE ME
THE SAME SHEET THAT YOU USED I.N YOUR INTERROGATION?
MS. hINNERI HERE IS oNE oF THE SHEET
AND THE OTHER SHEET I]S SEVERAL PAGES BACK FROM THAT.
, MR. LEONARD' ,N' I APPROACH THE
WI TNESS ?
BY MR. LEONARD:
A I GAVE YOU, CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN, THE SAME DOCU-
MENT THAT MS. WINNER USED WHEN SHE HAD YOU DO YOUR
ARI.THMETIC LESSON AND.ASK YOU IF YOU CAN--DO YOU HAVE A
PENCIL AND A PIECE OF PAPER?
A I BELIEVE SO. +UST A MINUTE. OKAY.
a LOQKII.IG AT EXHIBIT lt+ WITH RESPECT TO THE 1982
REGISTRATION FIGURES AND THE OTHER DOCUMENT YOU HAVE IN
FRONT OF YOU WHICH HAS THE 1980 REGISTRATION FIGURES-..
A (TT.ITTRPOSING) YOU WANTED TO COMPARE 1I+ WITH
THE OTHER ONES?
A I WANT YOU TO MAKE THE SAME COMPARISON FOR THE
WHITE VOTE BETI,IEEN 1_980 AND 1982 AS YOU MADE FOR THE
F P. O. lor ltrls
lJ R.b.ort. iaor0t c.,oah ,tarr
585
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.d571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
BLACK VOTE WHEN COUNSEL I.'AS CROSS-EXAMINING YOU--FIRST
OF ALL, THE STATEWIDE TOTAL VOTE OR REGISTRATION.
A WELL, ACCORDING TO THE FIGURES I AM LOOKING A
THE ToTAL WHITE REGISTRATION 0N OCToBER 6, 1980, WAS
2 ,313 ,7 22 .
a CORRECT. AND I^,HAT WAS IT ON---
A (trurrnposING) ot't ocroBER 4, 1982, THE TOTAL
wHITE REGISTRATION WAS 2r201r 189.
a Now, wouLD YoU SUBTRACT THE---
A (trurrRposINc) wELL, THE DIFFERENCE IS
APPROXIMATELy 1L2,000, EXCEpT rr IS 112,000 FEWER WHITES
REGISTERED IN OCTOBER t82 THAN 0CT0BER '80, ACCORD.ING T0
THESE FIGURES.
A SO WHILE THE BLACK REGISTRATI.ON WENT UP
BETWEEN 1980 Ar\lD t82 BY 12rOg5, THE WHITE REGISTRATION
DRQPPED BY L72,533; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT
A I BELIEVE COUNSEL ASKED YQU HOW MANY YEARS IT
WOULD TAKE BEFOR,E THE BLACK REGISTRATION REACHED THE
WHITE REGISTRATION, APPARENTLY ASSUMING A LEVEL OF WHAT
IT \,^'AS IN OCTOBER 1982. AND I BELIEVE YOUR ANSWER WAS
20 YEARS; OR SHE SAID 20 YEARS? AND YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
A YES. I AGREED THAT IF YQU CLOSE 1/2OTH OF TH
GAP EVEP.Y YEAR , lf I,IoULD TAKE 20 YEARS.
a cop,REcT. _ AND THE GAP WAS 6,000 A YEAR?
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b PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SOMETH I t\lc L I KE THAT .
A NOW, WHAT IS NEGATIVE GAP FP.OM THESE FIGURES
USING THESE SIMPL[: MATHEMATICS OF THE NEGATIVE WHITE
REDUCTION IN REGISTRATION EACH YEAR?
A
FIGURES IS
470,000, sINCE THAT IS NOT
NoN-WHlTE, NoT BLACK.
WELI., THE WHITE DROP ON THESE PARTICULAR
1t2,000.
THAT IS A T\^IO-YEAR GAP?
A THAT IS THE TWO-YEAR--IN TWO YEARS, THAT IS
THE DROP. AND THE BLACK I.NCREASE IS FROM 439,OOO'TO
470,000. so THAT IS AppROXIMATELY AN INCREASE OF 40r000.
MS. WINNER: l^,ELL, I OB!, ECT TO US I NG
A COMPARABLE FIGURE.; THAT IS
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OB\,ECTION OVERRULED. WE
HAVE BEEN USING NONI.BLACK WITHOUT ANY OqJECTION ALL THE
WAY THROUGH. AND THERE IS A PLAIN UNDERSTANDING.-.
MS. WINNER: CtNrenposrNG) youn
HoNOR, THE FTGURE 0N THE SHEfT SAYS I'BLACK.'t AND IT IS
A DIFFERENT NUMBER. SO HE IS COMPARING A BLACK TO A
I.,ION-.WHITE. AND IT IS A SUBSTANTIALLY DI FFERENT NUMBER.
I' JUDGE PHiLLIPS: LET ME SAY ABOUT ALL OF
THIS MATHEMATICAL EXERCISE ON BOTH SiDES--ONE THAT, I
MUST SAY, WAS .OPENED BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS-.IT
MORE SUBJECT FOR ARGUI.45NT TO THE FACT FINDERS BASED ON
THE RAW DATA HERE THry IT IS FOR INOUIRY ANID ARGUMENT
H l. O. lor 2tlct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WITH A WITNESS. BUT WE DID NOT PUT ANY BRAKES ON IT.
AND I AM NOT GOING TO PUT ANY BRAKES ON COUNSELIS
EXPLORATION ALONG THE SAME LINE.
I.lR. LEoNARD : I F THE CoURT PLEASE, I
NOT GOING TO BELABOR IT. BUT I THI\IK THAT THE FACTS NEE
TO BE POINTED OUT. AND THAT IS ALL I AM TRYING TO DO.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A SO CHAIRMAN SPEARI,IAN, IN ANY EVENT, WHILE THE
BLACK REGISTRATION FROM OCTOBER 1980 TO OCTOBER 1982
INCREASED, THE WHITE REGISTRATION DECREASED?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
a AND Tt-tIS DECREASE TOOK PLACE DURING THE. PERIO
OF TIME THAT TWO THINGS WERE OCCURRING: NUMBER OT{E, THE
PURGE OF THE ROLLS AND YOUR EFFORTS, AS YOU HAVE TESTI-
FIED TO THEt.,l EARLIER TODAY, TO II'lCREASE VOTER REGISTRA.
TION?
A THAT IS COnnrcr.
A LET'S JUST QUICKLY TAKE A LOOK AT I^'AKE COUNTY/
IF YQU WOULD, PLEASE.-THE FIGURES ON THE TWO SETS OF
DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE. WHAT I,JAS THE WHITE REGISTRATION IN
WAKE COUNTY IN OCTOBER OF 19BO?
A IN OCTOBER 1980 IN WAKE COUNTY THE WHITE
R EG I STRAT I 0N .WAS 132 ,654 .
a WHAT WAS rr rN OCTOBER OF 1gB2?
A ]25,9.77, I DROP OF APPROXIMATELY 7,OOO.
n P. O, 8or At6it
lJ tuEcri, xonh C.ioilm 2?0tr
588
42 t0 1
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o PRECISION REPOBTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a WELL, I F t4S. SMI LEy, WHO GOT AN rtArr I N E I GH
GRADE I4ATHEMATICS HAS DONE IT AND IT IS 6,877,I^/OULD YOU
l'
ACCEPT THAT FIGURE AS BEING.--.
MS. WINNER:
TO THE LEADING.
(IrurrRpoSING) I oBJEcT
\,UDGE PH I LL I PS : OVERRULED .
THE WITNESS:
BY }4R. LEONARD:
6r877?
a coR,RECT.
A I DONIT DOUBT THAT. IT IS CERTAINLY OF THAT
MAGN I TUDE
A AND ONE FINAL MATHEMATICAL GYRATION HERE:
WOULD YQU LOOK AT MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THE REGISTRATIO
IN THAT COUNTY IN OCTOBER OF 1980?
A THE BLACK REGISTRATION IN MECKLENBURG IN
ocToBER OF 1980?
a CoRRECT?
A 33,449
q I AM SORRY. I THINK YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED
THAT THE TNCREASE IN BLACK REGISTRATION t/AS 7r723. NOW
I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOU LOOK AT THE WHITE REGISTRATION
IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IN 1980.
A THF 1,/HITE IIEGISTRATION IN I4ECKLENBURG COUNTY
IN 19BO--IS THAT THE OUESTION?
a CoRRECT; YES?
F P. O. Bor 1'tl60
LJ R.blelt, xonh c&oltn. 2tatt
5ti9
211 1
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o
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFF|CE, RATE|GH. 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THAT IS 161rt+61:
a AND rN 1982?
A 159,614.
A SO WHILE THE BLACK REGISTRATION ROSE IN THAT
TWO-YE,qR PERIOD 1.r723, WHAT DID THE WHITE REGISTRATION
DROP ?
DP.OPPED ABOUT l.rB00.
IN YOUP, EARL IER CROSS-EXAMINATION TESTI}4OIIY,
YOU WERE QUERIED ABOUT THE FIGIJRES SHOWN ON THE FIRST
PAGE OF EXHIBIT 14. AND MS. WINNER ASKED YOU TO RELATE
THE INCREASE IN WHITE VOTERS REGISTERED OF 719,353 TO
THE NON-WHITE VOTERS REGIST=RED OF 68,576. AND YO.U
CONCLUDED THAT THE BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION WAS SOMETHI
ABOUT ONE-THIRD--THAT IS, OF THE ADDITIONAL REGISTERED
VOTERS--WERE BLACKS; WHEREAS TWO-THIRDS WERE WHITES.
I S BLACK?
WHAT IS THE PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION THAT
IN NORTH CAROLINA?
CORRECT ?
BETWEEN 20 AND 25 PERCENT.
SO THAT IS IT CORRECT TO STATE THAT THE ACTUA
SUBSTANTIVE OR PROPORTIONAL INCREASE OF REGISTRATION FOR
BLACKS IS HIGHER THAN IT IS FOR WHITES?
YES--OF THE INCREASE.
OF THE INCREASE?
A
A
a
F 2. O. eor 2trcl
LJ i.bldf, Nodn C.,o{r 2ilrr
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|}
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. M.AIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IN OTHER WORDS, OF THE INCREASE BLACKS
REGISTERED IN AN AMOUNT GREATER THAN THEIR PROPORTION IN
THE POPULATION.
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
THAT IS ALL I HAVE.
I HAVE NO RECROSS.
JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THANK YOU, MR . S PEARMAN .
(I,IITNESS EXCUSe o. )
WELL, WE HAVE ABOUT TEN MINUTES UNTIL
RECESSING FOR THE DAY. AND WE WILL GET ON WITH THE NEXT
WITNESS.
MS. WINNER: THAT IS FINE. PLAINTIFFS
CALL--COULD I HAVE ..,lUST A MINUTE TO CLEAR DEFENDANTSI
EXHIBITS FROM MY DESK? AND PLAINTIFFS CALL LARRY LITTLE.
L,UDG E BR I TT : THE WITNESS CAN COME
FORWARD AND BE SWORN WHILE SHE IS DOING THAT.
. (WHEREUPON,
LARRY BUNNELL LITTLE
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS: )
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,.
SEFORE COUNSEL STARTS AND BEFORE I.IE AD.'OURN FOR THE
AFTERNOOI.,I, I WOULD HOPE WE COULD GET FROI'4 COUNSEL BEFORE
TOMORROW,I"IORN ING SOME ORDER OF WI TNESSES--AS A MATTER OF
FACT, TONIGHT SOMETII'1E--SoME ORDER 0F THE REST OF YOUR
WITNESSES SO WE CAN_DO SOME PREPARATION AND SAVE SOME
F P. O. lor ,'las
Ll i.l.lch, Nord! C..o[6. 2r!fi
591
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XX
|}
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TIME.
MS. WI NNER: AS I HAVE TOLD COUNSEL
FOR THE DEFENSE ON AT LEAST TWO OCCASIoNS, t,E INTEND TO
FOLLOW WI TH 'TIIE EXCEPTION OF MR. h'I LLINGH.qM THE ORDER IN
OUR PRE-TRIAL ORDER. MR. WILLINGHAM WILL BE LAST. WE
MAY NOT CALL EVERY I^,ITNESS. BUT WE WILL GO IN THAT ORDE
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS THAT A SATISFACTORY
RESPCNSE ?
DIRECT EXAMINATION 4:2I P.M.
BY MS. WINNER:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?
A LARRY BUNNELL LITTLE.
A WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS?
A 2342 OKALINA AVENUE; WINSTON-SALEM, NORTH
CAROL I NA.
a sPELL TTOKALI NA. 'r
A O-K-A-L-I -N_4.. .
a Hol^, LoNG HAVE YOU LIVED IN I4INSTON-SALEM?
A ALL OF MY ADULT LIFE.
A WHAT IS YOUR EMPLOYMENT?
A I AM A CONSULTANT WITH HUMAN RESOURCE CONSUL-
TANTS IN WINSTON-SALEM.
a WHAT DO YoU DO FOR THEM?
A WELL, T.IE PRIMARILY DEAL WITH AFFIRMATIVE
-
t. O. iq e'ltl
lJ Rll..c,r Nort! C.roilm a?6il
532
142 1 l+ 1
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I
o PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ACTION PROGRAMS FOR MAJOR CORPORATIONS IN AND AROUI.JD
WINSTON-SALEM AS I.IELL AS CORPORATIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY.
A WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATION?
A I AI.1 A I68 GRADUATE OF R. .J. REYNOLDS HIGH
SCHOOL; A 179 UNDERGRADUATE OF WINSTON_SALEM STATE UNI-
VERSITY; RECEIVED MY MASI..-:RIS DEGREE FROM THE UNIVERSITY
OF NOP.TH CAROLINA IN GREENSBORO IN PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION.
A DO YOU CURRENTLY HOLD ANY ELECTIVE POSITIONS?
A I AM THE ALDERMAN OF THE NORTH WARD, WINSTON-
SALEM.
q WHAT rs rHE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THAT WARD?
A MY WARD IS APPROXIMATELY 75 PERCENT BLACK.
a Do You HoLD ANY SPECIAL POSITIONS ON THE BOARD
OF ALDERMEN OF l^lI NSTON-SALEM?
A I SERVE AS CHAIRMAN OF THE ALDERMENIS PUBLIC
woRKS COMMTTTEE AND VICE CHAIRI'1AN OF THE ALDERMEN I S
GENERAL COMMITTEE.
a HoI^I DID YOU GET SELECTION FOR THOSE POSITIONS?
A WELL, THERE WERE RECOMMENDATIONS AND VOTES
BY THE COMI.IITTEE MEMBERS. THE MAYOR MADE RECOMMENDATIONS
THEN THE COMMITTEE MEI.IBERS AND THE FULL BOARD HAD THE
F INAL SAY_SO I N THE ADOPT I ON OF THOSE RECOI'4MENDAT IONS.
A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF EACH OF
THOSE COMMITTEES?
A THE PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE HAS FOUR MEIIBERS.
A P. O. Bor 2atc!
u Rrhaeh. raodh c..dtu a7!rr
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PRECISION REFORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THREE MEMBERS ARE BLACK, ONE WHITE. AND THE GENERAL
COMMITTEE IS ALSO THREE BLACKS AND ONE WHITE.
A CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN ELECTORA
POLITICS IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A WELL, I FIRST RAN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE MYSELF IN
1974 FOR THE ALDERMANSHIP OF THE NORTH WARD. PRIOR TO
THAT TIME, I HAD BEEN ,qCTIVE IN HELPING MANY CANDIDATES
RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.
a WERE YOU SUCCESSFUL rN tg74?
A IN 1974--I THOUGHT I WAS. BUT rN L974, THEY
SAID I LOST MY COUNCTI NACT OR ALDERMANIC RACE BY EIGHT
VOTE S .
a WHEN WERE YOU ELECTED?
A IN 1977 I WAS ELECTED TO THE BOARD OF
ALDERMEN.
A IS IT A TWO-YEAR TERM?
A IT IS A FOUR-YEAR TERM.
:
A WERE THE STARTING DATES OF THE TERMS CHANGED
SOMETIME BETWEEN '74 AND 177?
A IN '74 THE ELECTION WAS FOR A THREE-YEAR
PERIOD OF TIME. IN 177 IT WAS FOR A FOUR-YEAR PERIOD
OF TIME. AND IN '81 I WAS RE-ELECTED FOR A FOUR-YEAR
PERIOD OF TIME.
a D0 You BELONG TO ANY CoMMUNTTY ORGANIZATIONS?
A YES. I SERVE PRESENTLY AS CHAIRMAN OF THE
F P, O. Bor itrtal
lJ nrheh, Nodh C.rolh. 2r!fi
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BLACK LF:ADERSIIIP ROUND TABLE. I AM A MEMBER OF THE
NAACP, THE URBAN LEAGUE. AND THAT IS PRIMARILY MY
AFFILIATION IN CIVIC AFFAIRS.
WHAT IS THE BLACK LEADERSHIP ROUND TABLE?
THE BLACK LEADERSHIP ROUND TASLE INITIALLY
WAS AN AD HOC GROUP FORMULATED IN 1982 TO GIVE DIRECTION
TO THE BLACK VOTERS OF WINSTON-SALEM AND FORSYTH COUNTY
IN REGARDS TO THE THEN PRIMARY ELECTION AS WELL AS THE
GENERAL'ELECTION OF 1982.
A HOW MANY MEMBERS
A OF THE LEADLRSHIP
APPROXIMATELY 35 MEMBERS.
ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE WINSTON-SALEM RECRUIT-
MENT ASSOCIATION?
YES. THAT IS ALSO AN ORGANIZATION WHICH IS A
GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZATION, I WOULD SAY. ITS MEMBERSHIP
WOULD BE FLUCTUATING
'O"-NUNU*E
BETWEEN 2OO TO ]OO PEOPLE.
WHAT IS THE RACTAL COMPOSITION OF THAT
ORGAN IZAT I ON ?
IT iS PREDOMINANTLY A BLACK ORGANIZATION.
IN YOUR ROLE AS ALDERMAN, HAVE YOU BECOME
AWARE OF A SPECIAL PROBLEM WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY OF
WINSTON-SALEM?
A SPEC IAL PROBLEA,IS THAT I ENCOUNTER IN MY DAY-T
DAY ROLE AS ALDERMAN IS DEALING WITH SEVERE PROBLEMS OF
DOES IT HAVE?
ROUND TABLE, THERE ARE
F P. O.8or l,ttt3
lJ i.5ttr. Nodr! C.roatu ?at|
595
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|}
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
UNEMpLOyMENT, HOUSING--BAD HOUSTNG COMMUNITy. AS
CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE, I HAVE TO LOOK
AT THE SUBSTANDARD HOUSES IN THE CITY. AND I GET AN
OPPORTUNITY TO GO DOOR TO DOOR AND INSPECT HOUSES AND
LOOK AT THE PRIMARY PROBLEM OF SUBSTANDARD HOUSES IN THE
CITY.
AND I AM AWARE OF THAT--OF THE DISPROPORTION-
ATE NUMBER OF THOSE SUBSTANDARD HOUSES IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY. I GET A CHANCE--AS A RESULT OF VISITING SUB-
STANDARD HOUSES IN MY COMMUNITY, I CAN SEE RELATED
HE,\LTH PROBLEMS AND OTHER FACTORS AS WELL AS OBSERVE THE
TYPE OF CLEAN-UP THAT GOES ON IN THESE AREAS--STREET
WA.SHING, CLEANING UP, LACK OF RECREATION FACILITIES OR
PROBLEMS OF THAT SORT.
A ARE THESE PROBLEMS THE SAME IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY AND THE WHITE COMMUT.IITY IN YOUR OBSERVATION?
A WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SOI.4E SEMBLANCE OF THESE
PROBLEMS ALL OVER. BUT I fHINK A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBE
OF THE SUBSTANDARD HOUSING WOULD BE FOUND IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY. A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED
PEOPLE WOULD BE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. AND A DISPROPOR-
TIONATE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT RECEIVING ADEQUATE
HEALTH CARE WOULD BE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
A WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF INTERRACIAL SOCIAL MIXING
IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
_
F P, O. Eor i[tB
lJ id.lolr. Nonh C.rcIil 276fi
596
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t PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I DON'T KNOTJ HOW TO REALLY QUALIT-y THAT.
I CAN ONLY SAY MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE FROM HAVING
BEEN BORN AND REARED IN WINSTON-SALEM. ESSENTIALLY WE
ARE A SEGREGATED TOWN TO THE EXTENT THAT THE BLACK
COMMUNITY PRIMARILY LIVES IN THE EAST SECTIO!..I OF THE
CITY. AND IT IS REFERRED TO NOT AS THE BLACK COMMUNITY,
BUT AS EAST WINSTON.
AND THE LIVING PATTERNS FOR WHITES, OF COURSE,
ARE IN THE WESTERN PARTS OF THE CITY. THERE ARE SOI4E
EXCEPTIONS BECAUSE BLACKS DQ, IN FACT, LIVE IN THE WEST-
ERN PART, BUT IN VERY, VERY SMALL AND RARE INSTANCES.
INSOFAR AS ORGANIZATIONS OR COUNTRY CLUBS,
THEY ARE STILL ALL WHITE. AND RELiGIOUSLY PROBABLY_-
WELL, BLACKS ATTEND BLACK CHURCHES. AND WHITES ATTEND
WHITE CHURCHES WITH THE RARE EXCEPTION PERHAPS BEING A
FEW BLACKS ATTENDING.THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
SOCIAL CLUBS--THERE ARE BLACK SOCIAL CLUBS.
AND THERE ARE WHITE SOCIAL,CLUBS. AND THAT IS NOT A LOT
OF INTERRACIAL GATHERING TAKING PLACE THERE.
a
HOUS I NG ?
DOES THE CITY OF WINSTON-SALEM HAVE PUBLIC
A CERTAINLY WE DO.
A WHAT IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE PUBLIC
HOUSiNG WHICH IS NOT FOR ELDERLY PEOPLE?
I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS PROBABLY gO-SOME
A P. O. &r ,tGS
lJ R.haeh. Ndh Crro{r 27Gil
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} PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
,79.36t9 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PERCENT BLACK.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: LETIS STOP AT THIS POINT,
MS. WINNER. AND WE WILL RECESS UNTIL 9:OO OICLOCK IN THE
MORN I NG .
(Tne PRocEEDING WAS AD.JOURNED AT 4:30 P.M., T
RECONVENE AT 9:00 A.M., THURSDAY, JULY 28,
198t. )
-
t. O. lor 2ttag
Ll i.l.te,I Norti c.ro{il ?Gti
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CERTIFICATE
t, .Jo B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY
THAT THE PRECEDING PAGES REPRESENT
A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE
PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH
cAROLINA, ON WEDNESDAy, JULy 27, 1993.
THIS, THE BTH DAY OF AUGUST, 1983.
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
JO B. BUSH, CVR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTE
F P. O.8or 2tlc!
Ll R.b{oh. tloni Cr.oltm 27Cil