Deposition of Terrence D. Sullivan

    DEI)OSITION
OF

TERRT:l,lCE D. SUtL IVAt.l

t
)r)\

II.I THE UI.J I TED S TATES D IS TR I CT COURTFOR IiiI EASTERI.I DISIP.ICT OF NORTH CAP.OLII,]A
RALEIGIi DIVISION

NO. Br-B0l-crv-5

RALPIl G I I.JGLES, ET AL., )
)

t)Ln IhtTIFFS, )
)
)
)

II'I IJIS )
ATTORNEY )

cAIt o t- I NA, )
)
)

DEFEt.JDn NTS.)
--_---\

VS.

RUFUS EDTIISTfI!,
CAPAC I TY AS THE
GENIRAL. OF I.IORTI]
ET A[-.,

n I RAl_E lG!1,
l0:00 A.1"1.
r..tovEtlBER g,

RF-t)ORTt_D UY:

I.IOR TII CAP.Ot.. I N/\

19Bi

.JUDITII A. r'10Rn \.JS l( I

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ffiffiffi
Court
Iteporting
Services

P O. Box 1 729
Ralrriqh. N.C.27602
(9r9) 832.41t4

P O. Box 4592
Clrarlollc. N C. 28207
(7O.1) 375.51 33

P.O Box llO
L;rr,rcl 5prin9s. N.C. 2864A
(91 a) 359-2289

NC r{8 Blds.
Du,l,am, NC. 27702
(9I r1 633-3656



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SULLIVAN DIRECT

THIS IS SUIJSTITUTE NO. 2?

THIS IS SUBSTiTUTE NO. 2. IT IS

MINUTES OF THE JUNE 16, 1981 14EET

]TIS EASY TO FIND JUST BEFORE THE

CONFERENCE COP1I4I TTEE 14EET I NG.

AND THIS IS IN EXHIBIT NO. g?

THIS IS IN EXIItBIT I'lO. 9. OKAY.

149

COl,lTA,t,lED AFTER THE

IhtG, .JUST BEFORE__

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DO YOU KNOW VJHO PROPOSED THIS SUBCOI,IMITTEE SI.'BSTITUTE

NO. 2?

THE MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF JUNE 16, I9B1 STATES

THAT THE ALF0RD-DANIELS MAP No. I Al'lD 3, BEIr'.lc THE

s/il'1E l'1AP I'JAS SELECTED By rHE coMMITTEE AS TFE oNE To

BE PP.ESENTED ON TIJ

MATH I S MOVED THAT VIE THE COI4M I TTEE ACCEPT THI' MAPS.

SEI'lAToR DAI'IiEL SECoNDED TllE MoTIoN, wtllCH PAt;SED.

SEI.JATOR ALFORD MOVED THAT \.JE ADJOURN.

D ] D YOU HAVE ANY COI.JVERSAT I ONS I,/ I TH E I THER SFNATORS

ALI-'OP.D OR DANI ELS PRIOR TO THEIR DEVELOPMENT OF THEIR

MAPS ?

I IVE I]AD CORRESPONDEi.ICE I.JITH ALL THE SENATORS AT ONE

TIME OR ANOT}iER. BUT I CANIT REMEMBER ANY PARTICULARS,

REALLY, OI.' TIl IS I)N RT I CULAR MAP. I \^/N S NOT CI)I,ISULTED

oN I'llls. oR IF I l/AS, I llnD A VERY t.ltNoR pArlr. so

M I NOR THAT I CAN ' T REI"lEMB ER I T.



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SULLIVAN D I RECT

SO YOU DOI{I T KNOW FROM YOUR

h,HAT CONS I DERAT I ONS SENATOR

USING IN DRAI{ING THIS MAP?

150

OWN PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE

ALFORD OR DANIELS WERE

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I THINK TIIAT IF YOU-_THE CONSIDERATION THAT CAME OUT

DURING THE MEETII'JG OF THE PUBLIC HEARII.IGS tlELD, I

THINK IT WAS IN RALE]GI.I ON CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING

AND OTIJER PLACES WAS TIIAT THE RETENTION_-C()ULD WE GO

OFF JUST FOR A I"1OMEI.]T.

(THEREUpON, THERE VJAS AN OFF-THE-RECOiID

DISCUSSiON, r{HICH WAS t.t0T REp0RTED By

THE COURT REPORTER. )

YES. FOR THE RETENTION OF CONGRESSMAN L. II. FOUNTAIN.

AND THIS IN YOUR OPINION WAS BEHII\ID THE PLiI.NS DRAV/N

BY SENATORS ALFORD AI']D DAN I ELS ?

I TH I I.IK THAT WAS ONE OF TIIE MAJOR CONS I DER/\ T I ONS.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT ANY OF TI]E OTHER CONSIDERi.TIONS I"/ERE?

NOT REALLY.

DO YOU I1AVE AN OPINION N S TO W}1AT AI!Y OF TIIE OTIIER

CONS I DERAT I OI.IS \./ERE ?

MR. \.JALLACE: OBJECTION. GO AHEAD ANI) ANSWER

IT.

\,{ELL, Or.rE OF--1,1y optNIoN IS TtlAT T}lEy--SEN,^IOR ALFORD

DID I'IOT WANT DUR}]AM IN TI.lE SECOND DISTRICT.



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151SULLIVAN DIRECT

D I D YOU EVER HEAR SE|,IATOR ALFROD SAY THAT?

I CANIT RECALL ANY SPECIFIC STATEMENT WHERE HE SAID
HE DID NOT I{ANT DURHAM IN THE SECOND DISTRICT.
AND ON I,/HAT I S YOUR OP I N I ON BAS ED THEN ?

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS OF OTHERS OI.I TIJIS MATTER.

MR . WALLACE : OBJECT I OI.I AI.JD MOT I ON TO STR I KE.

a wlrti \'/HoM DID you DIscuss sr:NATOR ALFORD,s coNcERNS

oR l'Jt"lo DID You EVER IJEAR DISCUSSING sENAToR ALFoRDts
CONC ERNS ?

MR. WALLACE: OBJECTION

A THERE HAVE BEEI{ SO MN NY D ] SCUS S I ONS ON EACH OF THESE

l'1APS, 1T IS HARD To sEPARATE [,JHO sAID I,/HAT, I^/HEN AND

ND I CAN'T REI"1EI"1BER. ALFORD MAY H,\VE COI"1E

OUT IN A COI"IMITTEE MINUTE. THEN A COMMITTEI MEMBER

I,/HO SAID THAT--TRANSCRIPTS OF THE RECORD WI I-L iNDICATE
THAT, IF YOU DID. I DOr{rT REMEMBER-

I,II THOUT GIVING A SPECI FI C TIME oR DATE, CoULi) YoU

STATE THE NAMES OF PEOPLE THAT YOU OVERHEARD DISCUSS]

SENATOR ALFORD ' S COI.ICERNS ?

AGAIN--AGAII'1, THIs IS--t"1Ay IJAVE BEEN JUsr HE.iRSAy.
AND I'M GIVII.IG YOU MY II"lPRESSION.

t'llr I I , Yo(, :;n I t) Iiln r )'our.l or,r lr rot{ !.Jn:, r}n:;r_D or.J (;t:r,JIt{AL

DISCUSSIONS. AND I I,/AS JUST TRYING TO DETERIlINE WHO

l{AS HAV I NG;-OR WHO WAS pART I C I pAr I l,lc ?

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MR. SULLIVAN DIRECT

A LEG I SLATORS I N GENERAL, I TH I NK WOULD BE I T.

A WERE THESE PRIMARI LY SENATORS OR REPRESENTAT IVES?

A I DON'T THINK THEREIS PROBABLY EITHER ONE OR THE

OTHER. THIS WAS A BI-PARTISAIJ EFFORT IN I,1Y OPINIOI.I

TO KEEP MR. FOUNTAIN IN OFFICE. NOT BI-PAR'IISAN.

IIM SORRY. EXCUSE ME. BICAI.1EP.AL.

A WAS I T ALSO A B I CAMERAL EFFORT To KEEP DURH,,1M oUT

OF THE SECOND DISTRICT?

A MY MEMORY I S THAT SENATOR ALFORD I S THE ONL\' ONE THAT--

SENATOR ALFORD IS THE ONLY ONE THAT--OF WHICIJ I HAVE

A GENERAL FEEL I NG OF HEARSAY, OR I./HATEVER, TIJAT WANTED

DO YOU KNIOW WHY SENATOR ALFORD WAI.]TED DURIJAM OUT OF

TIlE SECOND DISTRICT?

NO.

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHY HE WANTED DIIRHAM OUT

OF THE SECOND D I STR I CT?

NO.

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a DID YOU HEAR ANYONE DISCUSS T{ITH EITI.IER

YOUR PRESENCE, WHY SENATOR ALFORD WANTED

OF TIIE SECOND D I STR I CT ?

YOU, OR IN

DURIIAM OUT

I DONIT REMEMBER ANY REASON GIVEN OTHER THAN HE DID

I./ANT DURHAM-_ I THI NK ONE OF THE REASONS MAY I.iqVE BEEN

THAT DURHAM WAS AN URBAN COUNTY. PREDOMINANTLY URBAN.



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URBAN COUNTY, AND THAT IT I^/AS INAPI)ROPRIATE

THEY PERCEIVED AS SUPPORTERS IN THE SECOND/

PREDOI4I NANTLY RURAL AREA.

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\{ERE YOU EVER PRESENT WIJEI,I TI]E RACIAL POPULATION OF

DURHNM WAS DISCUSSED IN CON}.JECTION WITH THI S SENATE

SUIsSTITUTE NO. 2?

NO.

l,/ERE YOU--\.JAS TIJERE ANY DISCUSSION THAT YOU ARE AWARE

OF BETWEEN LEGISLATORS ABOUT THE RACIAL POPTJLATION

OF DURI1AM?

I D0l.lrT REI"lEMBER ANY DISCUSSIONS ALONG THOSi: LINES.

TI-lERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME D I SCUSS I ONS THAT YDU DON'T

RECALL RIGHT NOW?

UH_HUH (YES).

I./AS THERE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT A VIABLE CAI]DIDATE IN

DURHAM I"/HO MIGHT CHALLENGE CONGRESSMAN FOUI.]IAiN?

THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS, I THINK, ON EACH OF THE

DISTRICTS. THE MAPS, AS THEY WERE BEING PF'ESENTED.

AND NMONG THE CHALLENGERS THAT I HEARD MENI IONED,

AND I DON'T REt.1El"1BER WtJO t'1ENTIONED THEM, WED.E SEVERAL

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FROM DURHAM COUNTY

FROM DURIJAM COUNTY

TIIAT \./ERE I DENT I F I ED AS BE I NG

I DONrT REMEI'1BER IF Ttlt:Y WERE

OR NOT.

DO YOU RECALL THE NAMES OF THESE POTENTIAL T:HALLENGERS?



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FORME R
REI'PIESENTAT IVE-_ONE I'lOMENT--MICKEY MI CHAUX.

REPRESENTATIVE MI CKEY MICI]AUX.

COULD YOU SPELL HIS LAST NAME?

I'1- I _C-H-A-U-X. WHO ELSE?

N ND REPRE SENTAT I VE_ - f:ORMER RI PRE SENTAT I VE M I CKEY

MICI]AUX I{NS NT ONE TII"1E A U.S. ATTORNEY?

I N GREENSBORO, MI DDLE D I STR I CT.

AND HE RES I DES I N DURI1AM? DURHAM COUNTY?

I ASSUME SO. I HAVENI T--HE RESIGNED HIS API'OINTMENT.

SO I ASSUI"IE HE'S MOVED BACK TO DURHAM.

DO YOU RECALL I{HO DI SCUSSED THE POTENTIAL C .NDIDACY

OF REPR

NO. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, THE_-EVERi TIME A

DISTRICT I{AS CHANGED SOMEONE WOULD TROT OUT IHE NAMES

OF POTENT I AL CHALLENGERS. CIIALLENGERS THAT I^IERE E I THE

STRENGTI]EI.IED OR I^/EAKEI.JED BY THE CHANGE IN TIIE DISTRICT.
FoCUSING FoR TilE Mol'1ENT oN FoUNTAINTS DISTRICT, wHIcH

IS NO. 2, I^/ERE THERE ANY OTHER POTENTIAL CHAI-LENGERS

WI]O LIVED II.J DURIINI4 NI.ID \.JIIOSE NAMES I.JERE MEIII'IONED

AS A tiInsol'l l'/llY, Il.l oti{)t:R lo t'RorECT 1"1R. t-otrr,lrAIN's

I N('Ul'1til-NCY, TIIAT D[,lillnrt SlloULD NoT uE I NCLUDi-D AS

PART OF THE SECOND DISTRICT?

I KNOW TI]ERE WERE OTIIEI?S MENTIONED

CAN'T REMEI.lBER I.JIJO THEY WERE. I IM

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AND

NOT

I'M .IUST--l

REALLJ FAMILI



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MR. SULLIVAN
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DIRECT

WITH THE DURHAM POLITICAL SITUATIoN, oR INDEED THAT

OF THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

DO YOU KNOW WHETIIER MR. MICHAUX IS BLACK OR WHITE?

MR. MICHAUX IS BLACK.

DO YOU R,ECALL AI'.IY COI{VERSAT I ONS BY ANY OF THE BLACK

REPRESENTATIVES, OR THE BLACK SENATOR, APROPOS oF

PUTTiNG DURHAM IN TI{E SECOI.JD DISTRICT?

CONVERSATIONS WERE OVERHEARD. COI,IVERSATIONS WITH

THE BLACK SENATORS AND REP--BLACi( SENATORS Ai.ID

REPRESENTATIVES-_BUT I CAN'T REMEI"lBER THE STJ{]STANCE

oF THE--AS I REI''IEMBER, THEY I./ERE opposED To r)LAc I NG

DURHAM IN THE DISTRICT W]TH IVAKE COUNTY, AS IIOST oF

ULATION ARE.

BUT, I DON ' T REt"lEMBER THE I R FEEL I NGS ONr: WAy

OR THE OTHER TOI,/ARD THE DI SCUSS I ON--ONE WAY OR THE

orHER TowARD THE sECoND D I STR I CT, At{D THE i r.rc LUS I oN

OF DUITHNM IN TI]E SECOND.

I{AS THERE ANY EFFORT I"1ADE TO ASCERTAIN THE FEELINGS

oF THE BLAcK col"lMUNITY IN DUnHAr"r, AS To wTJERF: THEy

l'/Al'lrED To BE PLAcED, vrs-A-vrs rrJE coNGRESSI.NAL

P.EDISTRICTII(G?

I Tllll'Jt( Tlinr Qutsrror'r rs nr.rsr{t:RID r]y Tilt: puui IC

HEAR J NG THAT }^JAS HELD ON.- I N RALE I Gt-I ON THE QUESTI ON

oF coNGRESS r oNAL nro rErR I cr r NG.

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r"lR. SuLLrvAN DTRECT .1 56

a AND THAT WAS HELD ON WHAT DArE?

A 0N ApRIL 16, 1991. THAT HEARING WAS FOR__WAS

ST I PULATED AS BE I NG FOR CONGRESS I ONAL D I STR I CTS 2,

3 , I{ AND 6, WH I CH ARE THOSE ADJACENT To THE RALE I GH

NREA

a DO you KNow t/tlAT Tll,1E TtlAT WAS t.lELD?

A ] P.M. ACCORDING TO TIIE M]NUTES OF TI-IE TRANSCRIPT.

a At.lD Do you Kt,tow wt.lERE I T 1,/n S HELD?

A IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE BUILDING IN THE AUI]ITORIUM.

A WERE YOU PRESENT AT THAT MEETING?

A I DON'T BELIEVE I WAS. I CAI4E IN FOR A PERIOD OF

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YOU V/ERE PRESENT FOP. A SHORT PERiOD OF TIMEi

FOR A SIIORT I'ER I OD OF T I ME.

DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE

TI]ERE ATTENDING TI-IE_-

AS I REI.1EI.1BER TIJE I'1]I.IUTES OF TI.IE TRANSCRIPT OF THE

IlEAP.ING COI.]TAINS A VOTER REGI STRATION SHEET, HAVING

FOUP. SHEETS FILLED I,JITH THE NAMES OF THOSE, AND

s I Gl'IATURES oF TlJosE,, APPEAR I NG oN TtiAT MEET I htG--AT

TIIAT l'1t:ETING-

AI.JD ABOUT IIOW I,1ANY S I GI,IATURES ARE ON THOSE SIJEETS,

APPP.OX I I'lATELY?

THEY \'JouLD nulr FP,ot.1-- I I.JouLD sAy sot,lEt{l-tERE irr:T\i/EEN



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12 AND 1B PER SIiEET.

157

SO THERE WERE ACCORD I NG TO THE I{UMBER OF PEOPLE WHO

SiGI.IED A LITTLE LESS TIIAN 1OO PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED

TIiE MEETING?

I WOULD GUESS AT LEAST lyJi{O HAD S I GNED. THE CHAI RMAN

HAD ASKED AI.L VISITORS TO SIGI'I. I DON'T }(NO\'/ HOW

I.IANY I'1AY NOT HAVE S I GNED.

DO YOU RECALL FROM TI]E SHORT PERIOD THAT YOU WERE

THERE,ABOUTHOWMANYPEOPLEWEREPRESENTINTHE

AUDITORIUI'4?

IVJOULDESTII,lATESOI4E\^IHEREAROUNDIOO.MAYiIEA

LITTLE UIT l,1ORE, 125. BECAUSE TtIEY ALSO IN('i-UDED

LEGISLATORS, WIlO DID NOT SIGN ON TIlE SHEET

SPAULDING WAS THE CHAIRMAN.

AND IS THERE ALSO A LIST OF THE PEOPLE WHO SI)OKE FOR

THE I.1EET I NG?

TIJERE IS A TRANSCRIPT OF THE RECORD OF THOSE WHO

SPOKE.

Al'.lD DOI:S Tlll: TRnNSCtt I l'T I l'lD I CATE ltOW MANY I'}l:CPLE

SPOKE? I S TIlAT TIIE TRNNSCR I PT THAT YOU I RE I COK I NG

AT NOW?

YES, AND TIIAT'S EXIIIBIT NO.--l'Jl'IATEVER IN YOI'lR BOOr..

THIS IS EXHIBIT NO. 10.

IN EXHIBIT NO. 1O_-



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MR. SULLIVAN DIRECT

(TIlEREUPON, THERE WAS A SHORT RECESS.)2

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oKAY, SO TriE SENATE CoMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE NO. 2 WAS

ADOPTED BY TIJE SENATE ON JUNE 18, 1981 AND PLACED ON

TtlE SENATE CALENDAR FOR Tt'1E 22ND. ON THE 22ND, A

BILL PASSED FOR SECOND AND THIRD READINGS, AND THE

SENATE t^/AS SENT TO TtlE llOUSE, AND REFERRED TO TIJE

}1OUSE COMMITTEE FOR CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING.

YOU W I LL REMEI"lBER THAT THE COM}"1I TTEE_-'] ''JO

CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING COI"IMITTEES BROKE APART,

NEVER TO l"1EET AGAIN, ON THE l,1AY 28TH MEETI NG. THE

HOUSE MET AGAIN--THE HOUSE COI"IMITTEE BY ITSEI-F,

I'1ET AGAIN ON TIiE 9TH.

THE 9TH?

OF JUNE. THERE ARE TWO TRACKS TO FOLLOVI THE HOUSE

COI'1MI TTEE AND TIIE SENATE COI"IMI TTEE. AND TH J S I S

iNDICATED IN THIS 14EI,IORANDUM WI]ICH IS GIVEN AS

EXHIBIT NO. 12rl BELIEVE.

COULD I JUST INTERRUPT FOR JUST ONE SECOND, AND

ASK YOU WHETHER THERE WAS ANY RACIAL ANALYSiS DONE

ON SENATE COMI4ITTEE SUBSTITUTE NO. 2?

SEI{ATE COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE NO. 2?

OR OI= TIlE UNDERLYING PLANS, TIIE AL-FORD AND I]ANIELS

PLANS, Wrl t Cll--

I BEL I EVE--MY MEI"IORY I S, W I TH THE EXCEPT I ON r-)F THE

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MR SULL I VAN
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D I RECT

RACIAL DATA PREPARED AT THE REQUEST OF REPRESENTATIVE

SPAULDING, AND 0F wHICH I GAVE To you A Mor.lENT AGo,

WERE SENATE CONGRESSIONAL PLAN AND TRIAL DISTRICT

PLAN C-200N1, I BELIEVE, TtlAT TIIAT wAS THE ONLY

CONGRESS I ONAL--TIIAT PLUS THE 197 O PLAN USED I Ig- .THE

1971 PLAN USED IN TIIE 1980 CENSUS--

I T WAS THE OI.ILY RAC I AL STAT I ST I CS WH I (,H I

PP.ODUCED, THAT EITHER I PRODUCED OR WAS PRODUCED

UI.]DER MY SUPERVISION FOR CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING

BEFORE THE SUBMISSiON OF THE FINAL PLAN TO JUSTICE

II'I V/ASHINGTON IN SEPTEMBER--LATE AUGUST OR 5EPTEI.,1BER,

I BELIEVE, EARLY SEPTEI.lBER.

so, IN ANSV'lER TO yOUR QUESTION, THERE \./ERE I,lO

OTHER RAC I AL BREAKDOWNS.

COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THE RANGE OF DEVIATICN I,JAS ON

THE SUBCOMMITTEE NO. 2 PLAN?

(rneREUpoN, TtiERE l^tAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD

DISCUSSION, WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

BY THE COURT REPORTER. )

(THEREUpoN, THE DEpoS I T I oN wAS

ADJOURNED TO BE CONTINUED ON MONDAY,

I'JOVEMBER 16, IgBl.)

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