Trial Transcript Volume 2
Public Court Documents
July 26, 1983
Cite this item
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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 2, 1983. 0d8c6e62-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/97b003a1-c1f6-4458-92b3-041a9e23e821/trial-transcript-volume-2. Accessed April 09, 2025.
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25lr PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. liAtN OFF|CE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN D I STR I CT OF NORTH CAROL I I.JA
RALEIGH DIVISION
I
RITLPH GINGLES, ET AL., )
)
v. ) at_803_CIV-5
)
RUFUS EDMI STEN, ETC., ET AL., )
)
ALAN V. PUGH, ET AL., )
)v. ) 8i-i066-crv-
JAIIES B. HUNT, JR., ETC., ET AL., l
)
JOttN J. CAVANAGH , ET AL., )
)
V. ) ilt_545-CIV_5
)
ALEX K. BROCK, ETC., ET AL. )
)
DEFENDANTS )
TRIAL BEFORE
THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T. DUPREE, JR.,
THE hONORABLE W. EARL BRITT
P. O. gor 2!rB
Ll F.brch Ndh C.o{x a70il
AT RALEIGH: TUESDAYT.iULY 26, 1981
VOLUME 2
PAGES I66 THROUGH 372
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC.
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AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PIOENIX, ARIZONA
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PBECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l,tAlN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
APPEARANCES
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTiFFS:
LESLiE J. WINNER, ESQUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKiNS
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
951 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLiNA 28202
ARTHUR J. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLHOUSER 6 KENERLY
309 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144
ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR.2 ESQUIRE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402
LANIE GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUI TE 2030
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
JERRIS LEONARD, ESQUIRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREETT- N.W.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20006
E FULLER
JAMES WALLACE, JR.
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTICE
POST OFFICE BOX 629 I
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602
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779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
169
TABLE OF CONTENTS
WITNESS DI RECT
BERNARD N. GROFMAN
BY MR. LEONARD ., .,';
BY MS. WINNER
BY JUDGE DUPREE
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS
HARRY WATSON
CROS S RED I RECT RECROSS EXAM
17 7 -202
203-2 tB
223
2t9
220-223 \
BY MS. WINNER
BY MR. LEONARD
DR. PAUL LUEBKE
22)- 509 323 -32!+
309 -323
BY M5. GU I N I ER 32.5-37 L
EXHIBITS
NUMBER
PLAINTIFF
DESCR I P]-I ON MARKED RECE I VED
2t
22
23
24
25
26
27
29
GROFMAN VITAE
CARTOON, N60, g/30l1899
CARToON, N60, t0/ L5l1ggg
CARTOON, NtO, 7/4/t900
CAMPAIGN LEAFLET
POLITICAL ADS
POLITICAL ADS
POLITICAL AD, DAN MOORE
226
233
233
242
2l+S
2L+9
257
260
226
237
217
242'
246
250
259
262to
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NUMBER
PLAINTIFF
30
3t
33
34
35
36
37.
38
40
41
42
43
l+4
45
t+6
47
4B
49
50
51
51(ir)
51(B)
TABLE OF CONTENTS
( CONT I NUED )
DESCR I PT I OI.I
POLITICAL AD, PRYOR
POLITICAL AD, GOLDWATER
POLITICAL AD
POLITICAL AD, GARDNER
AD, N6O, L0/25/68
AD, CHARLOTTE NEWS_
POLITICAL ADS, 5/5/72
VOTER REGISTRATION FIGURES
GRAPH, REGISTERED VOTERS
GRAPH, BLACK OFFICIALS
LUEBKE VITAE
POLITICAL AD, 9/ t0rt2rL3/76
EDITORIAL, g/t2/79
EDITORIAL, 9/18/79
ADVERTISEMENT, 9/ 2t/ 79
ADVERTISEMENT, 9 / 23 r24 r25 / 79
ELECTION ANALYSIS
NEWSPAPER ARTICLE, 5/80
POT.ITICAL AD, 5/4/8A
NEI^/SPAPEF.. ARTICLE
NEWSPITPEF: ART I CLE
MARKED RECE I VED
260
26r
2.7 0
27t
2.7 3
273
274
282
2.&2
284
32t
335
34ti;
l5u
35't
156
35+
262
262
272
272
277
.27 7
.-27 7
284
284
311
31r
.32d
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
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TABLE OF CONTENTS
(CONT INUED) _
NUMBER DESCRIPTiON MARKED RECEIVED
PLAINTI FF
52
5l(.J)
VALENTINE CAMPAIGN LETTERS ,60 570
5](A) THRU (H) RESEARcH MATERIALS 1JI
DE FENDANT
53
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WITNESS NOTES
WITNESS NOTES
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876..571
PIOENIX, ARIZONA
sINCE WE ONLY HAVE ONE LIST, DR. GP.OFMAN, I\IOULD yOU
READ THOSE, PLEASE?
YES. THE ORDER OF EXHIBITS IS 15(E). THAT
WOULD BE FORSY'TH; 15(F); THAT WOULD BE FORSYTH; 15(D);
THAT wOULD BE DURHAM; 16CE); THAT W0ULD BE DURHA|4; 16(F);
THAT WOULD BE DURHA}4; 13(A), MECKLENBURG; 14CC), MECKLEN-
BURG HOUSE; 14(D); THAT WOULD BE MECKLENBURG HOUSE;
17(D); THAT WOULD BE WAKE, AND 17CE)r THAT WOULD ALSO
BE WAKE'..
you cAN STRIKE THE FIRST ONE, L5(E). NOW,
IF,YOU WQULD PLEASE HAVE BEFORE YOU GINGLES EXHIBIT 15(F).
A
COPY OF
ON IT.
ELECTION
.,4
THE
IT
trrE
UNFORTUNATELy./ yOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE t4E .THE
EXHIBITS I HAVE''/HICH DOES NOT HAVE THE LETTE
oNLY HAS r!15
r
ro SO I F yOU WI LL TELL ME t^rH I CH
ARE REFERRING TO I WILL FIND I.T.
THE HOUSE GE.NERAL ELECTION OF FORSYTH COUNTY
r N NOVEMBER OF 19_8 2 .
OKAY. YES.
q DR. GROFI'/IANI IN YOUR ANALYSIS OF THE FORSYTH
ELECTION GENERALLY'AS BETWEEN }78 AND I980. ON THE ONE
HAND, AND THE ELECTION OUTCOI.IE WH.I CH IS EXHIBIT X15--
I:I14 SORRY-.GINGLES EXHIBIT T5(F) DID YOU TAKE INTO CON-
SIDERATI.ON ANY CITANGE IN THE GEOGRAPHIC MAKE-UP OF THE
LEGISLATIYE DISTRICT FROM WHICH THE CANDIDATES RAN IN
1g7B AND 19BO AS OPPOSED TO THE GEOGRAPHIC DISTRICT THAT'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBINO, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.1571
PI'OENIX, ARIZONA
THEY RAN IN IN THE 1982 ELECTION?
A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE THE DATA ON PRE-
CINCT RACIAL REGISTRATION AND SO ON IS BASED ON THE
ACTUAL DISTRICTS, THAT IS TO SAY IF THERE I^TERE DIF-
FERENCES BETWEEN THE DISTRICTS IN 178, '80 AND ,82, THOSE
WOULD BE REFLECTED IN THE NUMBERS WHICH I USED.
A WELL, SPECIFICALLY, DR. GROFMAN, I AM REFERRIIJG
TO THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA OF THE DTSTRICT WHICH WAS THAT
HOUSE DISTRICT IN 1978 AND 1980, AND THE GEQGRAPHIC AREA
t\'HICH WAS THAT HQUSE DISTRICT IN I982.
A I DID NOT EXMINE THE GEOGRAPHIC COMPARISON
OF THE 1980 AND 1982 DISTRICTS.
A NOW, REFERRING SPECIFICALLY AND, IF THE COURT
PLEASE, I AM ONLY GOING TO BE REFERRING TO THE SUMMARY
SHEETS QN ALL THOSE EXHT,BITS WHICH IN MQST CASES IS JUST
il
THE F.I RST PAGEr THAT ELECTION, DR. GROFI'4AN, WAS TO CHOOSE
FIVE REPRESENTATIVES TQ THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FROM THAT
HQUS'E DI'STBICTi IS THAr Co-RREcr?
A YES.
q AND LOOKI'NG AT THE EXHIBIT AND SPECIFICALLY
I.N THE LEFTTHAND COLUMN/ IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WHAT IS
DESIGNATED C(A)(1) THROUGH (5) WHI CI.I DES IGNATES THE
CANDIDATES WHO WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THE ELECTION?
A YES.
a Now, CALLTNG youR ATTENTION SpECIFICALLY T0'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
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779.3619 87a.457;
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Lt Frhlgh. Nodn c.biln, 272'1
\lt
CANDI DATES Tt/O AND Tt-tREE/ THLTSE WERE THE Tt^/O ;LACK \.
CANDIDATES; IS THAT CCRRECT?
A YES.
a r\ND SpECIFiCALLy CANDIDATE TWO WAS C|-IARLIE
GRADY HOUSER, I\!OW R,EPRESENTATI'VE HOUSER?
A YES.
I] AND CAND I DATE THREE I.;AS ANN I E KENNEDY ?
A YES.
A AND THEY WERE THE TWO BLACK CAI{DIDATES?
A YES.
A AND THEY WEP.E SUCCESSFUL TN THE ELECTIOTI ; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
a Ntol{, DID yOU SpELIFIC/iLLy.TAKE THIS ELECTION
INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU I'ORMF-D YOUR CONCT.USION WITH
RESPECT TO THE 53 ELECTIQT'IS THAT yOU LOOKED A.T, '[HAT IN
FOF'.SYTH COUNI.Y AtJD IN NORTH CAROLh,tA GENERALLy, THERE I S
SUBSTANTIALLY SIGi.ll FIC,INT P.ACIAI-LY POLARIZED VOTING?
A. YES; T'HIS I3 ONE OF THE 53 ELECTIONS I ANA-
LY ZED.
a A.ND S0 Ii.tE p.ECORD IS CLEAR, IN THAT ELECTI0N
C.G. HOUSER. RECI:IVEN--AND I AM OI..JLY GOING TO USE THE RE_
GR,ESSION ESTII4ATES AND NCT THE EXTREi,IE CASE ESl IMATES--
RECEIVEI 87 PTP.CEit-I' -- i II,t SOF.PY.-_RL.CEIVED'17 PERCENT OF
THE 3 LACK VOTE AND +2 PERCENT OF THE b/H I TE VOTE ?o
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A THAT iS CORRECT.
A AND REPRESENTATIVE KENNEDY RECEIVED 94 PERCENT
OF THE BLACK VOTE AND 46 PERCENT OF THE WHITE VOTE?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND I S I T CORRECT, DR. GROFMAN, TO STATE THAT
YOUF. CONCLUSION I,JITH RESPECT To SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT
RACIAL POLARIZATION IN VOTING I^/ITH RESPECT TO FORSYTH
COUNTY ASSUI4ES RACE TO BE THE PREDOMINANT FACTOR IN THAT
E LE'CT I'ON ?
A NO.i Tl-tAT I S NOT CORRECT.
q r{HAr oTHER FACTOB9 DI D yOU CONS r DER?
A DID T CONSIDER IN ASKING THE QUESTION WHETHER
THERE IS RACIAL POLARTZATIOI'I?
a CoRRECT.
A THE ONLY QUEST}ON WHICH I CONSIDERED IN AN-
SI.IERI NG-- THE ONLY DATA .I CONS IDEP.ED I N ANSWER I NG THE
qUESTTQN OF RACI,AL POLARIZATIQN IS. THE VOTING BEHAVIOR
OF WHITES AND BLACKS.
A LISTEN CAREFULLY TO MY QUESTION AGAIN. WITH
RESPECT TO YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THERE IS SUBSTANTIALLY
SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION IN VOTING IN FORSYTH
COUNTY, DID YOU ASSUI'IE THAT RACE WAS THE PREDOMINANT
FACTOR IN THE ELECTION?
A NO, I DID NOT. I CAN ONLY REPEAT THE ANSWER
I GAVE PREVI OUSLY..('a
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77
a Do You KNOW WHAT I MEAN By ),FACTOR.!?
A YES.
A IS RACE A FACTOR IN AN ELECTION?
A YES.
A WHAT OTHER FACTORS DID YOU CONSTDER WITH RE-
SPECT TO FORSYTH COUNTY TO COME TO YOUR CONCLUSION WHICH
IS THAT THERE IS RACIAL POLARIZATION--I'M SORRY--THAT
THERE IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT P.ACIAL POLARIZATION
I N VOT I NG I N FORS YTH COUNTY.?
A NONE; TI.IAT IS To SAY RACIAL POLART1ATION AS
I HAVE DEFINED IT DEALS WITH THE VOTING PATTERNS OF THE
WHITE VOTERS VERSUS THE VOTING PATTERNS OF BLACK VOTERS.
THEREFORE, I LOOK AT THE VOTING PATTERNS OF WHITE VOTERS
VERSUS THE VOTING PATTERNS OF BLACK VOTERS TO DETERMINE
RACIAL POLARlZAT ION .
A THEN YOU CO.NSIDERED ONLY THE FACTOR OF VOTING
IN YQUR CONCLUSION?
A YES; sINCE THE DEFINITION OF RACIAL POLAR IZA-
TION I HAVE GIVEN IS THE DEFINITIOI.J HAVING TO DO WITH
VOTING.
A LET I'1E STP.IKE THAT QUESTION AND P.E-ASK IT.
YOU THEREFORE CONSIDERED ONLY THE VOTING PATTERNS THAT
YOU FOUND IN THE STATISTICAL DATA THAT YOU LOOKED AT IN
ORDER TO REACH YoUR CoNcLUSION?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT WITH THE EXCEPTIoN oT
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L7B
rHE FACT THAT I DID HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF WHICH CANDIDATES_-
WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES WERE INCUMBENTS.
A AND YOU KNEW WHICH ONES WERE BLACK AND WHITE?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT--I DON'T WANT
TO CHANGE THE IVORDS AND I DON'T REMEMBER THEM SPECIFI-
CALLY SO PLEASE CORRECT ME I F I AM WRONG--.THAT YOU COULD
PRACTICALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS IN FOR-
SYTH COUNTY IN 1984 WITH RESPECT TO THE TI{O BLACKS WOULD
NOT BE R.EPEATED AS THEY WERE IN,82: IS THAT coRREcT?
A THAT I S. MY BE L I.E F; YES .
q CAN YQU TELL THE COURT ANY INSTANCE IN WHICH
A BLACK INCUMBENT IN TH'E GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS LOST AN
E'LECTION WHEN THAT INCUMBENT SOUGHT RE_ELECTION?
A THERE ARE'NO SUCH EXAMPLES IN WHICH--IN
COUNTIES IN WHICH__THERE ARE NO SUCH EXAMPLES.
a Nol'r, WHAT I S THE STATI STi CAL__STRI KE THAT.
HOW MANY ELECTIONS DID YOU TOOK AT TO COME TO THAT CON-
CLUSION?
A I TH I NK THERE ARE APPP.OX I MATE LY S I X OR $EVEN .
a AND HOII MANY BLACKS ARE THERE IN THE NORTH
CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEMBLY?
A. IN! THE IIORTH CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEMLY AS A
WHOLE AT PP.ESENT?
a YES.'o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THERE ARE 12: SEVEN FRoM SINGLE MEMBER
DISTRICTS AND FIVE FROM---
A WHAT ARE THE STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES, DR.
GROFMAN, THAT A BLACK I NCUMBENT IVHO I^JAS ELECTED I N 19 B2
I S GO I NG TO BE DEFEATED I N 19 8I+ ?
A THERE IS NO WAY Oi. JUDGING THAT FROM THE DATA
BEFORE US BECAUSE THE FORSYTH CASE IS NOT COMPARABLE TO
ANY'OF THE PREVIOUS ONES.. EACH OF THE PREVIOUS INSTANCES
I N II/HI CH A B LACK I NCUMBENT I(AS RE-ELECTED TNVOLVES A
SII'.IGLE BLACK INCUMBENT.
IN FORSY'THr TIIIO BLACK INCUMBENTS'\.{ERE ELECTED.
AS I. HAVE PREVIOUSLY'TESTiFIED, THEY WEP.E ELECTED IN
5ITUATIONS T\IHICH IN THE PRIMARY THE EXCESS NUMBER OF
WHITE CANDIDATES LED TO SUCH A SPLITTING OF WHITE VOTES
AMOI.JG THE WHITE CANDTDATES IN THE PRIMARY THAT BOTH BLACT
CANDTDATES WERE SUCCESSFUL, T4ADE IT INTO THE GENERAL
ELECTION, AND IN THE GENERAL ELECTION THEY.WERE SUCCESSFU
IN A YEAR I^JHICH REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES DID NOT DO WELL.
A DR, GROFMAN, IF 11 PEOPLE CURRENTLY SERVE IN
THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHO ARE BLACK AND IF
NO' BLACK INCUMBENT HAS NEVER BEEN DEFEATED IN SEEKING
P.E-ELECTIOt.,i TO THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEI.4BLY AND IF
HLL THE 11 INCUMBENTS SEEK RE-ELECTION, I,IHAT IS THE
STATISTiCAL PROBABILITY THAT ANY ONE OF THOSE BLACKS WILL
BE DEFEATED?
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
A THERE IS NO WAY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION AS
YOU HAVE POSED iT SINCE IT INVOLVES AN IIAPPLES AND
ORANGES'I COMPARISON. ALL OF THE CASES AT POINT ARE ONES
INVOLVING SINGLE BLACK REPRESENTATIVES FROM THESE DIS-
TRTCTS--IN SOME CASES, S IruGLE BLACK REPR.ESENTATI VES FPToM
S INGLE MEMBER DI STRI CTS,
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO MAKE ANY COMPARISON
OF STATISTICAL SIGNIFTCANCE AS TO THE FORSY.TH 1982 HOUSE
SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE T1,.Io BLACK TNcUMBENTS NoW
ILECTED FROM A MULTI -MEMBEP. DI STRI CT , IN A COUNTY I./I TH
SUBSTANTIAL RACIAL POLARIZATION iN THE PRII4ARY.
JUDGE BRITT: MR. WITNESS, I BELIEVE, I T
WOULD BE HELPFUL IF YOU WOULD JUST TRY TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION A LITTLE MORE DIRECTLY WITHOUT GIVING A DIS_
COURSE EACH TIME, MAYBE WE CAN MOVE ON A LITTLE BETTER.
., BY MR. LEONARD :
A DR. GROFMAN, IS IT CORRECT TO ASSUME THAT WHEN
YOU USE THE TERM !'APPLES AND'ORANGES'I THAT THERE ARE
FACTORS THAT YOU DON?T KNOW ABOUT TODAY. THAT COULD CAUSE
A STATISTICAL DEVIATION FROM WHAT YOU MIGHT ASSUME TO BE
STATI,STI.CAL PROBABILITY BASED QN THE FIGURES I) GAVE YoU?
A CERTAINLY,: IT I.S CERTAINLY PosSIBLE THAT THE
WORLD TOMORROI^I---.
a (INTERPOsING) rnr ANSWER, DR. GROFMAN, IS
"cERTAINLY/l' IS IT NOT?
F P, O. &r t'llat
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
181
A THE ANSWER IS: CERTAINLY, ANYTHING IS
POSSIBLE.
a NOW, IF yOU WOULD FOR ME, LET'S MOVE ON TO
THE DURHAM HOUSE PRIMARY'IN JUNE OF 1gB2 WHICH IS GINGLES
EXHIBIT 16(D).
JUDGE BRITT: WHAT \^IAS THE LETTER, COUNSEL.i
MR. LE.ONARD: 16(D), YOUR HONOR.
THE WI TNESS : THAT I S THE PP.IMARY ?
MR. LEONARD: THE HOUSE PRIMARY.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A THAT WAS A PRIMARY ELECTION IN JUNE OF 1982
T0 ELEcr--oR To NoMlNATE.r._THREE pEopLE AND THE RESTjLTS,
OR AT LEAS'T THAT EXHIBIT INDICATES, THAT THEY WERE ALL
DEMQCRATS; IS THAT R}GHT?
A YES.'
a TWQ OF THE'4 .WERE BLACK: CANDTDATE oNE WnO
IfAS A.J. Hot^/ARD CLEMENT AND CANDIDATE Foup. !^/Ho wAS REPRE_
SENTATIVE SPAULDING?
A YES.
A FIRST OF ALL/ DR. GP.OFMAN, WHAT DO YOU CONCLUDE
FROM THIS EXHIBIT WI.TH RES.PECT TO THE ABILITY OF THE BLACK
COMMUNITY TO SINGLE_SHOT VOTE?
A THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN THIS EXHIBIT DID GIVE
THE BULK OF ITS VOTE TO CANDIDATE NUMBER FOUR.
A I{ELL, THE BULK BY.APPROXIMATELY THREE To ONE;
A P. O 8or irltat
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36'.t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
L82
ISNIT THAT RIGHT?
A THATIS RIGHT.
A WOULD YOU AGREE, DR. GROFMAN, THAT SINGLE-
SHOT VOTINC BY THE BLACK COMMUNITY I.N DURHAM COUNTY AT
LEAST FROM THE RESULTS OF THIS ELECTION SHOWS A HIGH
DEGREE OF POLITICAL SOPHISTICATION?
A IT EITHER SHOWS A HIGH DEGREE OF POLITICAL
SOPHiSTICATION OR A HIGH DEGREE OF RACIAL POLARIZATION.
a WITH RESPECT TO THE CONCLUSTON THAT yOU DREW,
LOOKING AT THE FACT THAT CLEMENT RECEIVED 32 PERCENT OF
THI BLACK VOTE AND 27 PERCENT OF THE WHTTE VOTE, SPAULDIN
RECEIVED 90 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE AND 42 PERCENT OF
THE b/HI.TE VOTE, DOES THIS ELECTION FORM PART OF YOUR
CONCLUSION THAT THERE T5 SUBS.TANTIALLY SIGNTFICANT
P.AC I ALLY POLAR I ZED VOT I NG I ITI DURHAM coUNTY ?
. A YES. IN THIS ELECTION, I HAVE NOT CONCLUDED
TTIAT THERE IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARTZED
VOT I NG.
I IM SORRY. I DIDNTT HEAR THAT.
A IN THIS ELECTIoN__THE QUESTION yOU SpECIFI-
CALLY ASKED I{AS: IS THIS ONE OF THE ELECTIONS THAT I
TOOK INTO ACCOUNT IN DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT, IN THE
COUNTY AS A I.JHOLE, THERE WAS SUBSTANTI ALLY S I GNI FI CANIT
i)oLAR I ZAT I ON. THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTI ON I S, 'ryES . "'
UNLESS i BE MISINTERPRETED, LET ME BE CLEARo
F P. O. 8or 2altl}
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PRECISION REPOBT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
B3
THAT I AM NOT CONCLUDING THAT IN THIS ELECTION THERE
I(AS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFiCANT R,ACIAL POLARIZATION.
THERE I^/AS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION.
THERE WAS RACIAL POLAP.I ZATION.
MR. LEONARD:
CPAUSE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
MAY I HAVE .JUST A MOMENT?
a Now, DR. GROFMAN, IN THAT ELECTION__THE ONE
l^/E ',{ERE REFERRING To--REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING wHo IS A
BLACK WAS A WINNER AND MR. CLEMENTS WHO IS BLACK WAS A
LOSER; TS THAT RIGHT?
YES.
A NOW GO WITH ME IF YOU WOULD TO GINGLES EXHIBIT
16(c) I^IHI cH I S-:I tM sqRRY.:.(E). WHTCH IS THE VERY NEXT
EXH I B J:T l^JH i CH IS THE SUMMARY SHEET QN DURHAM COUNTY I N
THE FIOUSE GENERAL ELECTION OF NOVEMBER OF Ig82 TO ELECT
THREE CANDI DATES-- I I M SOIiP.Y-_TO ELECT THREE REPRESENTA-
TIVES AND THERE WERE THREE DEMOCRATS RUNNING AND ONE IN-
DEPENDENT WHITE; IS THAT RIGHT?
YES; THATIS CORRECT,
A AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WAS THE BLACK--
ONE.OF THE THREE BLACK DEMOCRATS IN THAT ELECTION; CoR_
P.E CT ?
CORRECT.
LOCKING AGAIN AT THE COLUMN IVHICH }JOULD BE THE
A
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THI RD COLUMN, ?IP.EGRESS I ON ESTIMATE,II REPRESENTATIVE
SPAULDING RECEIVED 89 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE IN THAT
ELECTION AND THE NEXT CLOSEST CANDIDATE I,JHO WAS WHITE
RECEIVED 13 PERCENT AND THE OTHER TWO WHITE CANDiDATES
RECE I VED LESS THAN THAT; COp.RECT?
YES; TuAr IS CORRECT,
IS THAT AN EXAI'4PLE 0F SINGLEiSHQT VeTING Bya
BLACKS ?
A
a
THERE lS A
TFIE BLACKS?
a Go, r F You PLEASE,
I^/HICH IS THE GENERAL ELECTION
YES.
AND DQES THAT ELECTION I:NDICATE TQ YoU THAT
HIGH DEqREE qF PQLITICAL SOPHISTICATION BY
o
A THERE AGAIN, EITHER A HIGH DEGREE OF POLICIAL
SOPHISTICATION QR HiGH RACIAL POLARIZATION,
q ALL RIGHT,. PLEASE NOTE OVE:R IN THE REGRESSION
ESTIMATE COLUMN THAT SPAULDING RECEIVED 43 PERCENT OF THE
WHI tC VOTE.
A THAT IS CORREcT, '
A DO Y.OU CONCI..IUDE--DO YOU CONSIDER THIS ELECTIQN
AS PART OF THE OVERALL INFORMATION WHEN YOU CAME TO YOUR
CONCLUSION THAT THERE I.S SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL
POLARIZATI.ON IN VOTING IN DURHAM COUNTY?
YES ,
TO GINGLEs EXHIBIT 16(F)
FOP. THE STATE SENATE IN
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O, Bor i,alcl
Ll R6hlsh. Ndh C.rorn. 2?itt
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ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
185
DURHAI.I COUNTY I N NOVEMBER OF 19 B 2 TO ELECT TWO STATE
SENATORS, AND THERE I^IERE FCUR CANDIDATES, IS THAT CoRRECT?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
A ONE OF THOSE CANDIDATES WAS A BLACK REPUBLICAN;
IS THAT RiGHT?
A YES.
A AND THAT BLACK REPUBLI CAI..I, I BELI EVE, I S CANDI.
DATE THP.EE ?
A YES.
A AND HE RECEIVED FIVE PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE
AN? 17 PERCENT OF THE I{HITE VQTE, IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES,,
a DR,. GR.OFMANT/ DO y.OU HAVE AN OprNIoN AS TO
I,/HE.THER OR I.IOT THE P.ESULTS OF THAT ELECTION CAN BE VIEWED
AS RACIAL POLARIZATION OR PQLITICAL POLARIZATION?
.,A IN THAT ELECTION, BY THE DEFINITION OF RACIAL
POLARiZATION THAT I HAVE GIVEN, THERE IS INDEED RACIAL
POLAR I ZAT I ON .
a Do You HAVE AN 0PINION AS To WHETHER, L0OKING
AT THOSE RESULTS2 THEBE IS ALSO POLITICAL POLARIZATION?
A THERE TS CLEARLY POLITICAL POLARIZATION IN
THAT ELEOTION AND VIRTUALLY. EVERY ELECTI'oN WHERE THERE Is
A CONTEST .BET\^IEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS IN THE STATE
OF NORTH CAROLINA.
A GO WITH I",]E, PLEASE/ TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 1](A)
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
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P. O. lor 2lldl
tJ F..rth. Nonn C.rorh. 2ratl
MAIN OFFICE. RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
18 €j
WHICH IS THE SENATE PRIMARY IN IlECKLENBURG IN MAY OF
1978. I BELIEVE IN THAT ELECTION IT WAS A CONTEST TO
ELECT FOUR MEMBERS OF THE NORTH CAROLINA SENATE; IS THAT
CORRE CT ?
A YES.
A AND ONE OF THOSE CANDIDATES h/AS BLACK; IS
THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
A AND THAT WAS FRED ALEXANDER?
A YES.
A NOW, I CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO CANDIDATE NUMBER
ONE. IS THAT SENATOR ALEXANDER,?
A YES.
a utHo RECEIVED THE MOST VOTES lN THAT pRrMARy
ELECTI ON AS AI"IONG THE CANDI.DATES ?
., A MR. ALEXANDER.
A AND WAS HE THE ONLY BLACK IN THAT ELECTION?
A YES.
a so l4oRE pEopLE vorED rN THAT ELECTTON FoR
SENATOR ALEXANDER THAN VOTED FOR ANY OF THE WHITE CANDI-
DATES ?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
q LooK I NG AT THE CoLUMN, ITREGRESS I ON ESTI'MATES, rr
WOULD YOU DRAW AI.IY CONCLUSION FROM THE FACT THAT SENATOR
ALEXANDER RECEIVED 87 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AI'JD THE NEXT
;16
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 576.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZO.IA
7I1
HIGHEST VOTE AMONG THE BLACKS P.ECEIVED BY WHITE CANDI-
DATES WAS 27 PERCENT, THE OTHER THREE BEING LOWER, WITH
RESPECT TO THE POLITICAL SOPHISTICATION OF BLACKS IN
MECKLENBERG COUNTY TO SINGLE-SHOT VOTE?
A AGAIN, BLACKS WERE CONCENTRATING THEIR BALLOTS
ON THE BLACK CANDIDATES.
DID YOU CONSIDER THIS ELECTION IN WHICH SENATO
ALEXANDER RECEIVED 87 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE AND 5O
PERCENT OF THE WHITE VOTE IN YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THERE
IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNI FICANT RACIALLY POLARI.ZED VOTING
IN MECKLENBERG COUNTY.?
A I DID, THOUGH I MIGHT NOTE SIN6E WE ARE,coN-
SISTENTLY USING THE REGRESSION ESTIMATE WE MIGHT ALSO
CONSISTENTLY USE THE 47 PERCENT REGRESSiON ESTTMATE.
a
.A
WHERE DO YOU SEE 47 PERCENT ON THTS DOCUMENT?
THE PRQPORTION OF WHITE'VOTE FOR CANDIDATE_*
FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE ALEXANDER.
MR, LEONARD: . MAY I APPRoACH THE WITNESS, I
PLEASE THE COURT?
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : Y.ES .
BY. MR, LEONARD:
A MAYBE YOU HAYE A DIFFERENT SHEET THAT I DO,
BUT THIS WAS GIVEN TO US AND MARKED BY YOU.
WHAT IS THE I{UMBER' IN THE THIRD COLUMN OF
NUMBERS UNDER THE TI TLE/ IIREGRESS TON EST IMATE, '' ON THE
F l. O. ld 1116
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A^AIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BI
SHEET THAT I HAVE?
A YOU A.RE LOOKING AT THE MECKLENBURG ONLY SENATE
PRIMARY. THE ELECTION/ OF COURSE, TOOK PLACE BOTH WITHIN
MECKLENBURG AND CABAP.RUS.
I AI.4 LOOKING AT GINGLES EXHI BI]T 13(A)
I IM SORRY. 'THAT'S MY FAULT.
BUT THAT NUMBER 50 PERCENT IS CORRECT; IS IT
NOT ?
A
a
RECEIVE
A
a
GI NGLES
PR I MAI1Y
DATES- TO
SEMBLY,
YES, WITHIN MECKLENBURG COUNTY ONLY.
SO SENATOR ALEXANDER DID IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY
50 PERCE.NT OF THE WHITE VOTE TN THAT ELECTION?
Y'ES.
NOW GO WITH tlE IF yOU WOULD, PLEASE, TO
EXHIBIT 14(C) WHICH IS THE I.,IECKLENBUP.G HOUSE
HELD IN..JUNE QF 1982 TO NOMINATE EIGHT CANDI-
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THE GENERAL AS-
FRQM I.4ECKLENBURG COUNTY.
A QN YOUR LI;ST[NG QF CANDJDATES 9N THE LEFT.HAND
CoLUMN/ CANDTDATE ONE- r.S A BLACK AND THAT rS REPRESENTA-
TIVE BERRY; tS THAT CORRECT?
YES .
A AND IN THAT
COLUMN, CANDIDATE NINE
CORRECT ?
SAME COLUMN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
I.S CANDIDATE RICHARDSON; IS THAT
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
B9
A YES.
TELL THE COURT WHO RECETVED THE MOST VOTES IN
THAT PP.IMARY ELECTI ON?
THE CANDIDATE I^JHO RECEIVED THE MOST VOTES IN
THE PR I MARY E LECT I ON WAS CAND I DATE NUI..IBER ONE , BERRY .
a AND HE AL50 RECETVED--STRTKE THAT. LOOKTNG
UNDER THE P.EGRESSION ESTIMATE PROPORTION OF BLACK VOTES
FOR A CANDIDATE WHICH IS THE FIRST COLUMN OF PERCENTAGES,
CANDIDATE BERRY RECEIVED 79 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTES;
CANDIDATE RICHARDSON RECEIVED ONE PERCENT OF THE BLACK
YOTE, IS THAT CQRRECT?
A THAT I.S CoRRECT 1
AND THE NEXT CLQSEST WHITE CANDIDATE RECEIVED
29 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE?
A THAr I"S CqRRECTT
a Do YQU DP,AW A CoNCLUSTON, DR. GROFI"IAN, FROM
TI{OSE STATISTICS I,{ITH RESPECT TO THE $OPHISTICATIQN QF
BLACK YOTERS TO USE SINGLE-..SHOT VOTING?
YES; BLACK VOTERS ARE USING SINGLE-SHOT OR
CONCENTRATED VOTI.NG--CASTING FEWER BALLOTS THAN THEY ARE
ENTITLED TO CAST AND CONCENTRATING THOSE BALLOTS ON BLACK
CANDIDATES.
q AND BY CONCENTP.ATING VERSUS ST.NGLE-SHOT, I^IHAT
MEAN IS WHERE THERE IS I1ORE THAN ONE CANDIDATE THEY
CONCENTRATING THEIR VOTES,i^IHEREAS SINGLE-SHOT TS
YOU
ARE,o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
90
P.EALLY MORE APPROPRIATELY APPLIED TO ONE CANDIDATE?
A TNAT IS CORRECT.
q Now, LooKING AT THE HORTZONTAL NUMBERS FOR
REPRESENTATIVE BERRY, HE RECEIVED 7g PERCENT OF THE BLACK
VQTE AND 50 PERCENT OF THE \^IHITE VOTE IN THAT ELECTION;
IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS CQRRECT,
A DID THAT ELECTION FORM PART OF Y.OUR CONCLUSIOI!
THAT THERE IS SUBSTANTIALLY STGNIFI:CANT RACTALLY POLARI.zE
VOTING I.N MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A yE S; tT D'DD .
q GO WITH ME DOWN TQ THE RICHARDSON LINE.WHERE
RI cFIARDS0N ts sHet^(I{ AS BECEIVING 7 t pERcENtT oF rHE BLACK
VOTE, OR EI.GHT PEP,CENTAGE POINTS. LESS THAN BEP.RY, AND
39- PERCENT QF THE WHITE VOTE/ QR 11 PERCENTAGE PoINTS LES
THAN BERRY.T DO YOU-.STRIKE THATi
you I(NQ!*I/ oF couRSE, THAT MR. RI.CHARDSON
LogT THAT ELECTION BY. 250 VOTES?
A YEs.
q AND ALTHOUGH HE RECEIVED 12,?3t7 VQTES?
A yESr
q WOULD Y.OU HAYE AN OPINTON. AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
THE DI.FFERENCE BETW.EEN THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK AND WHITE
VOTES RECEIVED BY.BERRY AND RICHARDSON WAS SIGNIFICANT
IN THAT ELECTTON?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
91
MS. WINNER: COULD I INTERRUPT AND ASK
IF HE IS TALKING ABOUT A PRIMARY OR THE GENERAL? MY
RECOLLECTION IS THAT RICHARDSON AND BERRY BOTH WON THE
PRII"IARY, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
JUDGE BRITT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. THAT
WAS CONCERNING ME. THE LINE INDICATES CANDIDATES NUMBERS
AND PARTY. WINNING CANDIDATES INDICATES THAT THAT CANDI-
DATE WAS A WINNER.
l-4R. LEONAI(D: YES; I AM SORRY. LET ME
I,JI THDRAW THAT QUESTION,
BY MR. LEONARD:
a !^,Ho woN THAT ELECTTON?
A CANDIDATES ONE, TWO, THREE, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN,
EIGHT AND NINE.
A AND CANDIDATE ONE WAS THE BLACK, BERRY, WHO
RECEIVE.D 15, 10.6 VOTES?.
A THAT IS C9RRECT,
A AND CANDIDATE NINE \^IAS THE BLACT CANDIDATE
RI CHARDSON ?
A YES ..
A NOW, THE. NEXT EXHIBIT, I BELIEVE, IS MECKLEN-
BURG CENERAL IN NOVEMBER OF 1982 TO ELECT EIGHT MEMBERS
OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND AGAIN WE SEE THE BLACK CANDI-
DATES BERRY AND RICHARDSON; IS THAT CORRECT?
TJUDGE BRITT: WHAT EXHIBTT ARE YOU,o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
L92
REFERRING TO, COUNSEL?
MR. LEONARD: IIM SORRY--14CD).
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (B)?
MP.. LEONARD: (D) AS I N DAVID.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DR. GROFMAN, THERE WERE 18 CANDIDATES IN THAT
ELECTION; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
a IN ADDITION T0 THE NINE BLACK-.-I rM SORRY. IN
ADDITI0N TO THE NINE DEMOCRATS, TI,JO OF WHO|4 WERE BLACK=-
A (TNTERPOSlNG) NINE DEMOCRATS?
a EIGHT DEMOCRATS,
A E I GHT DEMOCI1ATS .
A THERE IdERE ALSO EIGHT REPUBLICANS AND TWO
I.NDEPENDENTS ?
. A THAT IS CORRECTT
A }IAVE YoU cAREFULLY REVIEWED THE DISPERSIoN oR
SPREAD OF THE WHITE VOTES I.N THAT ELECTION, PARTICULARLY
THE VOI\ES RECEIVED BY THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS?
A I CAN REVI EbJ I.T ON THE W I TNES S STAND.
A WELL, LOOK AT IT QUICKLY AND IF I AM NOT MIS-
TAKEN THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE OF WHITE VOTE RECEIVED BY--
EXCLUDING THE TWO INDEPENDENTS--BY THE REPUBLICANS AND
DEMOCRATS WAS BY CANDIDATE 14 WHICH WAS 28 PEP.CENT.
A YES; THAT IS CORP.ECT--THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE.
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193
A AND THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE WAS RECEIVED BY
REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE NUMBER 15 AT 5B PERCENT?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THEN THE REPUBLICAN VOTE FELL OFF DOWN
INTO THE 30IS AND A COUPLE OF THE DEMOCRATS RECEIVED
156, 157 AND A NUMBE.R 0F THEM IN THE 40rS?
A YES .
A BUT THE RANGE AMONG THE DEMOCRATS AND REPULI_
CANST THE 16 CANDI DATES EXCLUDI NG THE I NDEPENDENTS, I^IAS
FROM 58 PERCENT OF THE WHITE VOTE ON THE TOP SIDE TO 28
PERCENT OF THE WHITE VOTE QN THE LOVJ SI'DE?
YES t
TAKING ALL THOSE FACTS INTO CONSIDERATION,
DR. GROFMAN, D0 YUU CONCLUDE FROM THIS ELECTI0N THAT
THERE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION
IN VOTING IN THE HOUSE GENERAL ELECTION IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY IN NOVEMBER OF 1982?
A
q
I\tHI CH I S
JgB2.
YES q
GO WITH ME/ pLEASE, T0 GINGLES EXHIBIT 17(D)
THE HOUSE PRIIMAR,Y TN WAKE COUNTY. IN JUNE OF
MS . l^/ I NNER :
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
THE WITNESS:
WHAT IS THAT EXHIBIT NUMBER?
17(D) AS IN DAVID.
THANK YOU.
VJOULD YOU PLEASE REPEAT THE'a
P. O. ed ,,lal!
lJ tuhterl ronh c.ern 2nll
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
194
ELECTION YEAR?
MR. LEONARD: JUNE t982, THE HOUSE PRIMARY
I N IVAKE COUNTY .
BY MP.. LEONARD :
a THERE WERE 15 CANDIDATES TO__15 DEMOCRATTC
CANDIDATES TO FILL SIX NOMINEED PoSITIoNS; IS THAT
CORRE CT ?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT,
a oNLY ONE OF THOSE t^/AS A BLACK?
A rE$j THAT IS CQRRECr
q THAT I S REPRE$ENTATI VE DAN BLUE I,IHO TS LI STED
AS CAN.DIDATE NUMBER TWO ON THIS EXHIBTTA
A YES.
q WHO WAS THE HI:GHEST.,VOTE-GETTER IN THAT
ELECT I QN ?
. A CANDTDATE TYO, MR, BLUE.
q AND HE RECEIVED 82 PERCENT QF TltE BLACK VOTE
AND 39 PERCENT OF THE !,&rITE yQTrr
A THAT IS CQRRECTi
q AND FRoM THIS ELECTTON DO yOU CONCLUDE THAT
THERE IS SUBSTANTIALLY' SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION
IN VOTING IN WAKE COUNTY?
A IN WAKE COUNTY/ OR IN THAT PARTICULAR ELECTION?
A IN THAT ELECTIONA
A IN THAT ELECTION; NO, I DO NQT.(o
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-a571
PI-|oENIX, ARIZONA
95
A TELL ME, WHAT IS IT STATISTICALLY THAT
CAUSES YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THIS DOES NOT MEET YOUR
DEFINITION OF SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARI-
ZATION IN VOTINIG?
A SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION
IN VOTING AS I HAVE DEFINED IT OCCURS WHEN THE DIFFERENCE
IN THE VOTING PATTERN OF BLACK VOTERS AND WHITE VOTERS
ARE SUCH THAT THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE ELECTORATE
WILL AFFECT THE ELECTION OUTCOME, THAT IS TO SAY, SUCH
THAT IF THE E.LECTION WERE HELD ENTIRELY W.ITHIN THE MEM-
BTRS OF ONE COMMUNITY.AS OPPOSED TO ENTTRELY.WITHTN THE
MEMBERS OF THE OTHER COMMUNI.TYI THE SET OF CANDIDATES
T.IHO WOULD BE ELE'CTED I^TOULD BE DI.FFERENT.
AND THIS IS NOT SUCH AN' EXAMPLE?
A THAT I$ CORRECT.
q NOW, IN THE .GENERAL ELECTIOT{ THAT YEAR WHICH
SHOULD BE THE NEXT NUMBERED EXHIBIT, 17CE) AS IN EDWARD/
THAT IS,, THE HOUSE. GENE.RAL ELECTION IN NOVEMBER OF 1982
IN WAKE COUNTY, THEP.E WERE 17 CANDIDATES VY.ING FOR
ELECTIQN TQ THE HQUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GENERAL
AS'SEMBLY IN THAT ELECTI ON; CORRECT?
A
q
A
a
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND THERE WERE FIYE INDEPENDENTS?
YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
AND S IX REPUBLI CANS AND SI X DET4OCRATS ?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
196
A
a
EXHIBIT
IN THAT
A
a
IN THAT
I S THAT
A.
YES.
AND REPRESENTATIVE
AS CANDIDATE TWO, WAS
ELECT I ON?
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND IF MY COMPUTATION
ELECTION--SECOND ONLY TO
RIGHT?
TFIAT IS RIGI'IT.
BLUE, INDICATED Of.l Tt-tIS
ON LY BL.ACK CA\ID I DATE
IS CORRECT, HE RAN SECON
CANDIDATE NUMBEP. THREE;
DAI.I
THE
,a AND LOOKING OVER 0N THE RIG.HT_HAND COLUHN OF
NUMEiER.S.= I APoLocIzE. NoT THE RIGHT-HAND coLUl'tN, BUT
THE PROPQRTION OF WHITE VOTES FOR THE CANDTDATE USTNE
''REGRESS I ON ES.T IMATES!T RATHER THAN YOUR EXTREI.IE CASE
I
ESTIMATES, IS IT CORRECT THAT CANDTDATE BLUE RECEIVED
THE SECOND HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF WHITE VOTES/ TIED WITH
CANDI.DATE ONE AND CANDIDATE FIVE?
A YES;' THAT TS CORRECT.
A AND THAT THE CANDIDATE RECEIVING THE HIGHEST
PERCENTAGE OF I^JHITE VOTES WAS THREE PERCENTAGE POINTS
AHEAD QF BLUE AT 48 PERCENT?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
q Do you CoNCLUDE/ Dp.. GP.OFMAN, FROM THIS EXHTBIT
THAT THERE WAS OR WAS. NOT SUBSTANTIALLY. SIGNIFI.CANT
RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN WAKE COUNTY IN THAT ELECTION?
r CONCLUDE THAT THERE t^/AS NOT.
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PRECTSION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PI-OENIX, ARIZONA2. O. ad 2tlts
u R.btdl raorrn c.Etfl zritt
97
NOW, WI TH RESpECT TO THoSE ELECT IoNS l,lH I CH
YOU HAVE WHICH WEIVE GONE THROUGH THIS MORNING THAT YOUR
TESTIMONY INDICATES THERE WAS NOT SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFI-
CANT RACIALLY POLARI.ZED VOTING, DID YOU CONSIDER THOSE
ELECTIONS NEVERTHELESS IN FORMING YOUR OVERALL CONCLUSiON
WITH RESPECT TO THE COUNTIES IN QUESTION AND THE STATE OF
NORTH CAROLINA?
YES.
a DR, GP.oFMAN2 I N oNE OF YoUR SUMMARY EXH I B I TS,
YQU CONCLUDE THAT THE PROBABLE CONSEQUENCES OF MINORITY
SUBMERGENCE ARE REDUCED TURI.IOUT AND REDUCED INTEREST IN
VQTING BY BLACKS, AND YOU CITED A SOURCE, ST, ANGELO AND
IuuEAB, P-U-R-Y-E-A--R, IN SOME DoCUMENT OF 1982
WE COULD NOT FIND THAT AND I AM NOT BEING
CRITICAL FOR THAT, BUT LET ME ASK YOU: IS THERE ANY
OTHE.R LITERATURE TO SUPPORT THAT CONCLUSION OTHER THAN
THAT STUDY?
A THE EXPERT WITNESS IN MCMILLAN MADE THAT
ASSERTION.
ONE OF THE EXPERTS? OTHER THAN THOSE TWO
souRcEs, D0 You KNOW OF ANY oTHER?
A YES; THERE IS A STUDY DONE IN THE 19.70tS IN
THE STATE OF l'1I SSISS t PP I r t D0 NOT FTAVE OFFHAND THE
EXACT REFE.RENCE. IT WAS PUBLISHED IN ONE OF THE REGIONAL
POLI TI CAL SCI ENCE .JOURNALS .'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36't9 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
98
IS IT YOUR OPINION, DR. GROFMAN, THAT A
STUDY DONE IN THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI IN 1970 WHICH
I PRESUME WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BEEN BASED ON DATA ACCUMULAT
PRIOR TO 1970 IS A CREDIBLE SOURCE TO USE FOR REACHING A
CONCLUSION IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN 1983?
THE CONCLUSIONS WHICH ARE STATED IN THE DOCU-
MENT AT I SSUE ARE GENERAL CHARACTERTSTTCS OF MULTI_MEI.,1BER
DiSTRICT ELECTIONS,
A BUT YOU MADE NQ SPECIFIC STUDY IN THE STATE OF
NORTH CAROLINA AS TO WHETHER OR NOT MULTI_MEMBER DIS_
TRICTS/ IN FACT, DISSUADE BLACKS FROM PAR,TICiPATING,
YOTING, ET C,ETERA?
A NO; I DI:DNI.T." I I4ADE NO SUCH S.TUDY SINCE I
ONLY' LOOKED AT RACES WHERE THERE.WERE t,lHITE_BLACK
CONTESTS.
THE ANSWER .tS, TINO!!?
tJo.
A IOU HAVC TESTTFIED THAT YOU STUDIED DATA FROM
THE LIBRARY.OF CONGRESS RELATED TO THE USE OF MULTI-
MEMBER DISTRICTS XN FIVE OTHER SIATES 'IN ORDER TO MAKE
YOUR COMPARISON., THE AVERAGE THAT Y.OU USED YESTERDAY
WITH THESE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRTCTS-.WHAT STATES WERE THOSE?
FOR THE HOUSE, IT WOULD BE MAINE, FLORIDA,
l^/EST VIP.GINIA, t'tYOMING, AND GEORGIA. S0RRY--THAT IS F0R
THE HOUSE. FOR THE SENATE IT I./OULD BE SOUTH CAROLINA,
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
Ti9.o6ts gt6.4s7t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
199
vERMoNT, WYOMING, FLORIDA AND HAWAII--1980 DATA.
A DID YOU SAY. HAWAII?
A YES.
A WHAT WAS THE NUMERICALLY LARGEST MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRTCT YOU FOUND IN THOSE STATES?
A I BELIEVE THE NUMERICALLY LARGEST MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICT l,lAS 11.
a AND WHEN yOU MADE y'oUR CQMPUTATTONS IN ORDER
TO COME UP I,,ITH THE AVERAGE, I BELTEVE YOUR HIGHEST
AVERAGE I'IAS-.--.
A (INTERPOSING) 3,5.
a 3 "5, AND YOUR CENTER AVERAGE WAS---
A (trurrRpQSrNG) 2t87.
A 2,87. DID YOU AVERAGE JUST THE MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS. OR ALL QF THE DISTRICTS?
. A I AVERAGED ALL OF THE DISTRI.CTS.
A ALL RI:GHT.. LETIS TAKE A LOOK AT NORTH CAROLIN
WHEN I.lE TALK ABQUT AVERACE.ST- r*1 GROFMAN, SHALL WE? Do
Y.QU ITAVE A COMPUTEB UP THERE/ OR A BLANK PIECE OF PAPER
AND A FENCTL?
MS, WINNERi t WANT TO---
BY MR., LEONARD:
q (INTERPOSING) DID YOU MAKE COMPUTATIONS BASED
ON AN AVERAGE FOR NORTH CAROLINA?
M5. WINNER! I OBJECT TO THAT. WE ARE'o
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PAECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
20a
NOT ASSERTING THAT }.,IORTH CAROLINA'S AVERAGE IS UNUSUALLY
LARGE. WE ARE ONLY ASSERTING THAT THESE PARTICULAR DIS-
TRICTS ARE UNUSUALLY LARGE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY PRocEED. oVERRULED.
THE I^JI TNESS : YES; I DI D So CALCULATE
AVERAGES.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a yEsrERDAy yOU CoMPARED THE 3,5 HOUSE AVERAGE
TO THE E.IGHT-MEMBER DISTRICT IN MECKLENBURG. WHAT IS THE
AVERAGE FQR NQRTH CAROLTNA FQR THE HOUSE?
A I HAVE NQT CALCULATED THE CURRENT REAPPORTION-
MENT AFTER THE CREATI.ON OF,SINGLE-MEMBER DTSTRICTS,. THE
198 0 F I GURE WAS, ' FoR THE HOUS E,
'
. 0.4 .
a DR , GROFMAN, DON r T y.OU TH I NK I T 'dOULD HAVE BEE
HELFFUL TO THE COURT TO TELL THEM THAT YESTERDAY?
SO THE AVERAGE PRIOR TO REAPPORTIONMENT WAS
3,04; IS THAT RIGHT
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THE AVERAGE YOU HAVE FOUND WITH RESPECT TO
THE OTHER STATTS WAS 3,5?
A OF THE FIVE LARGEST STATES.
A WELL, DID YOU DO ANY COMPUTATION FOR OTHER
THAN THE FIVE LARGEST STATES?
A CERTAINLY, I DTDNIT TOTAL IT OUT BUT THATIS
BECAUSE I DIDNIT NEED TO SINCE JO OF THE STATES HAVE AN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
^AAIN
OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-157'l
PI.IOENIX. ARIZONA
20L
AVERAGE OF ONE. THEY ARE NOT MULTI-MEMBER STATES.
A WELL,THEN/THEY HAVE NO SIGNIFICANCE, DO THEY,
IF ONE IS COMPARING AVERAGE SIZE OF DISTRICTS IN STATE
LEGISLATURES ACROSS THE STATES? WE ARE NOT TALKING
ABOUT THE SIZE OF STATE LEGISLATURES. WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE DISTRICTS IN STATE LEGISLATURES.
IS IT Y.OUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING THAT IN
ORDER TO HELP THIS COURT DETERMINE THE USE OF MULTI-
MEMBER DISTRICTS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES THAT YOU
WOULD INCLUDE THOSE STATES. THAT HAVE NO MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS?
MS'" WINNER:
I DECIDED WI{AT QUESTIONS TO
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
THE WITNESS:
SUCH INFORMATION. ALL THE
MEMBER STATES.
I OB.JECT TO THAT QUES;r I0N .
ASK, No,T DR. GRoFMAN.
OVERRULED.
NO; AND I DID NOT PRESENT
STATES IN QUESTION ARE MULTI
BY MR. LEONARD: '
A LET!S GET TO THE FIGURES YOU USED YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY YOU USED 3,5 FOR THE STATES--AVERAGE HOUSE
MEMBERSHIP IN THE STATES YOU COMPARED AND 2.87. DO YOU
KNOW WHAT IT IS TQDAY IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A No; I DO NOT,
A ALL RI GHT. LET I1E G IVE YOU THESE NUMBER.S AND
SEE IF YOU CAN COMPUTE THEM. THE HOUSE HAS 20 SINGLE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 A76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2A2
MEMBER DISTRICTS AND 33 MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS. THE
TOTAL MEMBERSHIP FOR THE HOUSE IS 120. WHAT IS THE
AVERAGE SIZE OF THE DISTRiCTS IN THE STATE OF NORTH
CAROLINA IN NUMERICAL VALUE?
A THE AVERAGE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IS 3.3 IN
SIZE AND THE AVERAGE DISTRICT WI:LL BE--IF MY ARITHMETIC
IS CORRECT, THAT WoULD TURN oUT TO BE 2.91.
a IS IT APPROPRIAIE, THEREFoRE, TO COMPARE 2.91
TO THE FIGURE YOU USED YESTERDAY OF 3,5?
A Y.ES..
A ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. NQW, THERE ARE 18
SENATE DIISTRI'CT-.-SINGLErMEMBER:.-AND THERE ARE 1r+ SENATE
DISTRICTS WHI:CH ARE MULTI-MEMBER. THERE ARL- A TOTAL OF
50 MEI'4BERS QF THE STATE SENATE. COULD YOU TELL US WHAT
THOSE NUMBERS ARE ?
A THE AYE.RAGE },IULTI.,MEMBER D.ISTRICT I S 2 .2 8 IN
SIZE.! THE AVERAGE SINGIE=.I.,lEMBEB DISTRICT I:S ONE IN SIZE.
oF THE TQTAL DI STRTCTST:1..80,.
MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU, DR. GROFMAN.
THAT IS ALL I HAVE. EXCUSE ME--COULD I JUST HAVE ONE
MOMENT ?
(PAUSE. )
MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: DOES COUNSEL HAVE ANY RE-
DIRECT?
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ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
203
MS. WINNER: YtS, S I R.
REIJIRTCT EXAMINATION IO:27 A.M.
BY MS . WI NNEII:
A DR. GROFMAN, M8. LEONARD HAS JUST TAKEN YOU
THROUGH SOME EIGHT INDIVIDUAL ELECTION CONTESTS. HOW DO
THESE EIGHT CONTESTS COMPARE TO THE OTHER 45 CONTESTS
WHICH YOU HAVE ANALYZED IN TERMS OF THE DEGREE OF RACIAL
POLAR IZAT I ON ?
A THEY ARE AMONG THE ELECTION CONTESTS I^/ITH
THE LEAST RACIAL POLARIZATION AND, INDEED, THEY. INCLUDE
THE ONLY ELECTION CONTESTS IN WHICH I HAVE CONCLUDED THA]
THERE IS NOT SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATI
A THOUGH THEY ARE TWO DI TFERENT TERMS THAT YOU
HAVE BEEN REFERRING ABOUT, ACTUALLY THERE HAVE BEEN THREE
DIFFERENT TERMS YOU HAV.E BEEN REFERRING ABOUT, WHAT DO
YOU MEAN BY RACIAL PqLARIZATION?
A RAC I AL POLAR I ZAT I ON I.S WHEN B LACK VOTERS AND
I,IHITE VOTERS VOTE DI FFERENTLY IN A DI FFERENT ELECTION.
JUDGE PHI LLIP.S i COUNSEL, I BELIEVE THAT THAT
IS WELL IN THE RECORD, IT CERTAINLY IS I:N MY MTND.
MS. IVINNER: FINE.
BY MS. WINNER:
A DRAIVING YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER 15(F) AruO I AM GOING TO BRIEFLY GO OVER THE.SE INb
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
204
THE SAME ORDER THAT MR. LEONARD DID.
A IT WOULD HELP, COUNSEL, IF YOU WOULD.
a THAT IS A FORSYTH COUNTY, NOVEMBER 1982
GENERAL ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE?
A YES.
A DID YOU INCLUDE IN YOUR ANALYSIS OF THAT
ELECTION RETURNS FROM PRECTNCTS WHICH WERE NO LONGER
IN FORSYTH COUN'TY IN THE HOUSE DI STRI CT NUMBER 29--THOSE
PARTS OF FORSYTH COUNTY WHICH WERE NOT IN HOUSE DISTRICT
2g?
A NO,
a coulD you poINT ouT How WHITE VOTERS RANKED
THE TWO BLACK CANDIDATES, KEI{NEDY AND HOUSER, IN THAT
ELECTION?
A YES; WHITE VOTERS--OF THE EIGHT CANDIDATES
IN THAT RACE FOR GENERAL ELECTION IN FORSYTH COUNTY IN
NOVEI.{BER 19 8 2, WHI TE VOTERS RANKED THE TWO BLACK CANDI:
DATES SEVEN AND EIGHT--LAST'AND NEXT TO LAST-*FOR FIVE
SEATS TO BE FILLED.
A AND HO'/, DI'D BLACT VOTERS RANK THOSE TWO CANDI-
DATES IN THAT ELECTIQN?
A FIRST AND SECOND.
A I4OVINC ON TO PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT NUMBER 16(D)
WHTCH IS THE DURHAM COUI{TY.JUI.IE 1982 PRIMARY?
A YES.
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
205
WAS I T POSS IBLE I.N THAT ELECTI ON FOR A BLACK
CANDIDATE NOT TO BE ELECTED?
NO; IT WAS NOT.
WHY WAS THAT?
.A THERE WERE FOUR CANDIDATES TN THE RACE. TWO
OF THEM WERE BLACK. TWO OF THEM WERE WHTTE. THERE WERE
THREE SEATS TO BE FILLED,] THEREFORE TT TS MATHEMATICALLY
IMPQSSIBLE TO HAVE ELECTED FEWER THAN ONE BLACK CANDI*
DATE SINCE THERE' !,fERE ONLY TWO WHITE CANDIDATES IrN THE
RACE AND THREE SEATS TO BE FILLED.
A WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE OF I,JHITE VOTERS WHO
DID NOT VOTE FOR THE BLACK INCUMBENT?
A PERCENTAGE OF WHITE VOTERS WHO DID NOT VOTE
FOR THE BLACK INCUMBENT IS 63 PERCENT.
AND WHAT I.S' THE PERCENTAGE
NOT VOTE'FOR EACH 0F THE WHrTE
32 PE'RCENT AND 3] PERCENT.
OF WHITE VOTERS
I'NCUMBENTS ?}JHO DID
A
MOVING ON TO PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 16(E)
WHICH IS THE GENERAL--THAT SAME ELECTION_-WELL, BEFORE
YOU MOVE ON, DOES THE NUMBER OF BLACK AND WHITE CANDI-
DATES AFFECT YOUR DETERMINATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THERE
WAS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?
ONLY INDIRECTLY AFFECTS IT.
HOW IS THAT?
A IT AFFECTS IT IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2Ab
VOTES RECETVED BY BLACK CANDIDATES AND WHITE CANDIDATES
hTILL RANK THEM STATISTICALLY DIFFERENTLY AMONG WHITE
VOTERS AND BLACK VOTERS SO AS TO CHANGE THE ELECTION
OUTCOME IN EACH OF THE DIFFERENT RACIAL CONSTITUENCIES.
SO THERE COULD HAVE BEEN SUBSTANTIALLY DIF_
FERENT..-SUBSTANTIAL RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IF THE
WHITE COMMUNITY HAD RANKED A DIFFERENT BLACK AHEAD OF
THE BLACK CANDIDATE THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAD?
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE/
THINK EVEN A MATHEMATICIAN CAN SPECULATE THAT. I
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: OVERRULED. LET ' S SEE
CAN D8 SOMETHING OTHER THAN SPECULATE.
I WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.
I DONIT
OBJECT.
IF WE
TH.E WITNESSi MAY I HAVE THE QUESTION
RE. READ ?
MS. WINNER::
. BY MS. WINNER:
a MovrNG oN T0 PLAINTIFFiS EXHIBTT 16CE) Wnlcn
I S THE GENERAL ELECTI ON FOR'THAT S.AME RACE/ WOULD YOU
CONS.IDER THAT_..DI.D YOU CONSIDER--I.IELL,1 WHO WE'RE THE
FOUR CANDTDATES IN THAT ELECTION?
A IN THAT ELECTION THERE WERE.THREE DEMQCRATS
AND A WHITE INDEPENDENT, ONE BLACK DEMOCRAT BEING THE
I NCUMBENT.
a rN ALL 0F THE ELECTIoN RETURNS THAT yqu 0B-
SERVED, DID ANY INDEPENDENT GET ANY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER
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PRECTSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, MLEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
207
OF VOTES. FROM ANYBODY?
A NO.
A WOULD A POLITICAL SCIENTIST CQNSIDER THAT TO
BE A CONTESTED ELECTION?
A NO.
I,lR. LEQNARD: OBJECTION.
JUDGE PHi LLI PS i SUSTAI NED.
BY MS. WINNER:
A IN YOUR OPINION AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, WAS
THAT A CONTESTED ELECTION?
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I AM
GOI.NG TQ QBJECT TO THAT. I DONIT THINK THAT THIS WITNESS
HAS BEEN RECEIVED BY THIS COURT A5. AN EXPERT IN POLITICAL
ScIENCE.AND IF TFTAT I'S C0UNSELT.S CONTENTION, I WOULD LIKE
TQ BE HEARD QN TNAT.
. JUDGE PHLLI PS: I DON t T RECALL .THE DETAI LS
OF THE QUALIFICATION. WE ACCEPTED THE WTTNESS AS AN EX-
PERT IN THE FIELDS TDENTIFIED BY COUNSEL QUESTIONING HIM.
I AM FRANK TO SAY THAT I NAVE BEEN LABORING UNDER THE AS-
SUMPTION THAT HE CLAIMED TO BE AN EXPERT TN MATTERS OF
POLITICAL SCIENCE.
MR. LEoNARD' DOES yoUR HONOR SAy HE HAS,
HE DOE-S, HE I S ?
JUDGE PHILLIPSi THAT IS MY RECOLLECTION OF
THE TERMS 0F THE qUALtFI,CATIoN.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36't9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZOT.IA
208
MR. LEONARD: IN oRDER To MoVE THINGS
ALONG, I I^II LL '^/I THDRAW MY OBJECTI ON THEN AND LET HER
PROCEED.
BY MS. WINNER:
a Do You RECALL THE QUESTT.oN?
A COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION, PLEASE?
a AS A PoLTTICAL SCTENTTST, DO y.OU CONSTDER
IHAT TO BE A CONTESTED ELECTIQUT
A NO.
a MovrNG oN To PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 16(F) WHICH
IS THE DURHAM SENATE GENERAL FOR THE YEAR 1982--MOVING
ON TO PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 14--13(A) AND ALSO DRAWING
YOUR ATTENTIQN TQ PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 13CE) WHICH ARE
THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY ONLY AND THE MECKLENBURG AND
CABARRUS COUNTY.RETURNS FOR THE MAY. 1g7B SENATE PRIMARY?
. JUDGE PHILLIPS: DOES THIS DEAL WITH ANYTHING
THAT WAS COVERED ON CROSS?
MS. WINNER: . YES, SIR.
THE WITNESS: OKAY; t FOUND THE MAy r7B
MECKLENBUP.G PRI'MARY.. LET ME FI ND THE COMBI NED ONE. YES;
I HAVE THOSE I^'ITH ME NOW.
BY' MS . W['NNER t
A WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWE.EN THOSE TWO
EXHIBITS?
A THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO EXHIBITS I5
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
209
THAT IN ONE YOU LOOK ONLY WITHIN THE MECKLENBURG PORTION
OF THE COMBINED MECKLENBURG-CABARRUS DISTRICT, AND THE
OTHER WE LOOK AT--WHICH OF COURSE IS THE WHOLE DISTRICT-_
I.II TH THE WHOLE DI STRI CT I S MECKLENBURG_CABARRUS.
dUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE THAT PART CAME
LATER IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION IN RESPONSE TO THE COR-
RECTION THAT WAS MADE UNLESS YOU ARE REFERRING TO SOME-
THING ELSE.
M$. WTNNER: I HAVE JUST ONE FURTHER
OUESTION ABQUT THAT.
BY MSI WTNNERI
A IS IT PQSSIBLE IN THE MECKLENBURG AND CABARRUS
SENATE DISTRICT FOR A CANDIDATE TO WIN IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY AND LOSE IN THE DISTRICT NONETHELESS?
A YES; AND THAT HAS, IN FACT, HAPPENED.
a LooKrNG AT EXHIBIT 13(A), WHERE WAS SENATOR
ALEXANDER RANKED AMONG WHITE VOTERS?
A SENATOR ALEXANDER=WAS RANKED IN THE--LET' S
SEE. ARE WE IN THE PRIMARY OR IN THE GENERAL?
A I N THE PR I.MARY .
A IN THE P,RIMARY HE ltAS RANKED LAST, THAT IS TO
SAY., FIFTH WITH FOUR I NDIVI DUALS' TO BE SELECTED.
a AND LoQKTNG AT llcE)1 WHERE WAS trE RANKED AMONG
THE }./HI'TE VOTERS OF THE ENTIRE DI STRI CT?
A HE WAS ONCE AGAIN RANKED LAS.T.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2LA
A MOVING ON TO PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 14(C) WHICH
IS THE JUNE 1982 HOUSE PRIMARY FOR MECKLENBURG COUNTY,
I JUST WANT TO CLARTFY YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THE VOTE OF
THE BLACK COMMUNITY WAS ITCONCENTRATED.'' WOULD YOU DEFINE
U/HAT YOU MEAN BY CONCENTRATED?
A BY THAT I MEAN---
JUDGE PHI.LLIPS
'
(I NTERPOSTNG) I BELI EVE
THAT ALSO CAME PERFECTLY CLEAR DURING THE COURSE OF CROSS
WHEN MR. LEONARD HIMSELF ASKED FOR A DI FFERENTI.ATION BE_
TWEEN CONCENTRATED AND STNGLE-SHQT, IF THAT IS THE POINT
YOU ARE TP.YI.NG TO MAKE1
MS. WI,NNER. I BELIEVE THAT THERE ,I S SOME
AMBIGUITY..
JUDGE PHI.LLIPS: GO AHEAD AND ASK QNE QUESTIO
BY MS. WI.NNER:
A IF THERE AR.E TWO BLACK CANDIDATES AND YOU SAY
THAT THE VOTE WAS CONCENTRATED, DO YOU MEAN THAI BLACK
PEOPLE ONLY VOTED FOR THOSE..TWO CANDIDATES?
A NO; I. DONTT MEAN THAT BLACK PEQPLE ONLY VOTED
FOR THOSE TWO CANDIDATES, BUT I DO MEAN THAT A SUBSTANTIAL
PORTION OF THE BLACK VOTE I.IENT TO THOSE TWO CANDIDATES.
a MovrNG oN To--rN THAT ELECTION, DID BLACK
CANDIDATES ALSO VOTE FOR SOME WHITE CANDIDATES?
A YES; THEY DID.
a AND BLACK.VoTERS ALSO VOTED FOR SoME WHrTE''o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
211
CAND I DATES ?
A YES; THEY DID.
A AND BLACK VOTERS ALSO VOTED FOR SOME WHITE
CANDIDATES?
A YES; THEY DID.
A LOOKING AT PLAI]NTIFF'S EXHI&IT I4 CD) WHICH
IS THE GENERAL ELECTION FCR MECKLENBURG COUNTY HOUSE IN
L982?
A Y.Es.
a HoW DID WHITE VOTERS RANK lv,!R. BERRY. AMONG
THE DEMOCRATS ?
A MR, BERRY WAS RANKED S.EVENTH AI4ONG DEMOCRATS.
e t^/Ho t^/AS THE EIGHTH--RANKED DEMoCRAT?
A MR. RTCHARDSoN.
A WHY--SINCE MR. BERRY WAS ONE OF THE TOP EIGHT
AMONG WHITE VOTERS, WHY DID YOU CONSIDER THIS ELECTION TO
HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION?
A BECAUSE WHITE VOTERS IN THE PRIMARY RANKED MR.
RICHARDSON LAST AND WHITE VOTERS tN THE GENERAL ELECTION
RANKED MR. RICHARDSON 14TH, THEREFORE IN THIS ELECTION
THERE WERE CLEAR SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES
BETWEEN THE PREFERENCES BETWEEN THE BLACK AND THE WHITE
COMMUNITIES, SINCE BLACK VOTERS RANKED MR. RICHARDSON
SECOND_-SECOND ONLY TO MR. BERRY IN BOTH PRIMARY AND
GENERAL'o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
2L2
a Now, LooKrNG AT pLATNTTFFTS EXHIBTTS 17(D)
AND 17(E) NON THE HOUSE PRIMARY AND GEI.IERAL IN WAKE COUNT
It.t ig82?
A YES; I HAVE THOSE.
A I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT THAT WAS AN
ELECTION IN WHI.CH THERE WAS NOT SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT
RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT,
a How MANY OTHER ELECTTONS__HOW MANY ELECTION
CONTESTS DID YOU EXAMINE IN TOTAL?
A I' EXAMINED 32 ELECTION CONTESTS IN TOTAL, THAT
rs ro sAy/ coMBINATIONS OF pRIt4ARyS AND GENERALS IN.THOSE
CASES I,JHERE THERE WAS A GENERAL FOLLOWING A PRII'IARY.
a AND HOW MANY OTHER ELECTToN CONTESTS DID yOU
NOT FIND SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLAR.IZED
VOTING?
MR. LEoNARD: EXCUSE ME. I UNDERSTAND THE
QUESTION. ARE WE NoW GOING TO GO rNTO ELECTIONS?
MS . I^,I NNER : NO .
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do YoU WANT To MAKE AN oB-
JECTION/ |4R. LEONARD?
MR. LEONARD: I OBJEcT.
.JUDCE PH T LL I PS : GO AHEAD AND ASK THE QUEST I O
BY MS . I.JI NNER:
a How'MANY CTHER ELECTICN CONTESTS DID yOU NOT
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI,|oENIX, ARIZONA
?1:i
FIND SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNI FICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED
VOTING?
MR. LEONARD: I OBJECT To THAT QUESTIoN.
IT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE CP.OSS-EXAMINATION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHAT DO YoU SAY To THAT,
MS. WINNER?
MS. WINNER: I SAY To THAT THAT MR.
LEONARD HAS POINTED OUT PARTICULAR EXAMPLES AND I AM
ENTITLED TO MAKE A COMPARISON BE-IWEEN__TO PUT BOTH EX-
AMPLES IN toNTExr. THA.T IS I,/ITHIN THE scopE oF THE cRoss.
JUDGE PHILLIPS.: OVERRULED. Go AHEAD.
THE WITNESS: WOULD YoU REPEAT THE QUESTI
PLEASE?
BY MS . tr{I NNER :
A YES; IN EXAMINING OTHER ELECTIoN CONTESTS,
DID You Nor--BE$IDES T:lIS ONE IN I/AKE couNTy IN 1982--
DID YOU NOT FIND SUBSTANTIALLY'SI.GNIFICANT RACI,ALLY
POLARIZED VOTING?
A IN ONE OTHER,
A AND WHICH ONE WAS THAT?
A THAT WAS THE DURHAM 1982 PRIMARY AND GENERAL
IN THE HOUSE,
A AND THAT I S THE ONE IHAT hJE TALKED ABOUT
EARLIER?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
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a wHy DOES THrS 1gB2 ELECTION IN WAKE COUNTY
NOT CHANGE YOUR OPINION ABOUT WHETHEP. THERE IS SUB-
STANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN
I'.IAK E COUNTY ?
THIS PARTICULAP. WAKE COUNTY INVOLVES A RACE
I^/ITH AN INICUMBENT BLACK CAI.IDIDATE. FURTHERMORE, iN THE
CONTEXT OF ALL THE ELECTIONS It.I WAKE LOOKING AT THE PRI_
MAR I ES WH I CH ARE BY AI.ID LARGE DETERMI NAT I VE OF OUTCOMES,
l'/E FIND THAT 0N AVERAGE 59:7 PERCENT oF wHITE VOTERS IN
THESE PP.IMAP.I ES FAI L TO VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDI DATE.
THUS/ I. CONCLUDE THERE EXI$TS A :?ATTERN OF SUBSTANTIALLY
SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZATION IN I^/AKE OVER THE PERIODS
AND ELECTIONS INVESTIGATED.
o A NOW, I BELIEVE THAT YESTERDAY
TESTIFIED CONCERNING PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
CRCS S. EXAI4I IJAT I ON ?
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
AFTERNOON YOU
NUMBEP. 19 ON
MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'/ES; THAT IS C0RRECT.
A AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT YOU TESTIFIED OR
THAT YOU AGP.EED t/ITH MP.. LEONARD THAT P.EPUBLICANS ARE
UNABLE TO DEFEAT 67 PERCENT OF THE BLACK DEI4OCP.ATS WHO
MADE I T TO GENERAL ELECTI.ON; IS THAT RI GHT?
THAT I S CORI1E CT .
I,{HAT TS THE PEP.CENTAGE OF WHITE DEMOCP.ATS
THAT REPUBLI CANS ARE UI.IABLE TO DEFEAT?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2L5
a AND DO yOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE A SIGNIFTCANT
DI FFERENCE?
A GIVEN THE SAMPLE SIZE, THAT IS THE LARGE
NUMBER OF CASES LOOKED AT, YES.
A YOU ALSO TESTIFIED YESTERDAY AFTERNOON ABOUT
THE CASE OF MCI'II LLA,N V. ESCAMBIA COU,NT,Yj IS THAT CORRECT?
A I WAS ASKED A QUESTTOII ABOUT MCMI LLAN V
ESCAMBIA COUNTY. I DONTT THINK I TESTI FIED.
A ALL RIGHT, IN ANSIJER, YOU },IADE A COMPARISON
TO A SINGLE SEAT ELECTION; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES; THAT IS CORRECT.
A WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
A THE CASE OF I.4CMI LLAN V. ES CAMB I A I NVOLVES AN
A.T-LARGE ELECTI ON.-:
MR, LEONARD: (INTERPOSING) IF THE COURT
PLEASE, I OBJECT TO THAT
JUDGE PHILLIPS: oN WHAT BASIS? IT SEEMS To
ME YOU OPENED QUITE I\,IUCH A CAN OF WORMS THERE AND SHE IS
ENTITLED TO RUN IT OUT A LITTLE BIT. I THINK I'VE GONE
INTO IT ABOUT AS FAP. AS I WP.NT TO GO, BUT I THINK I WILL
LET HER PURSUE I T AT LEP.ST oNe QUESTION.
MS . I'J I NNER : I HAVE ONE Op. TWO QUESTI ONS
I WANT TO ASK.
UUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. ASK THEM.
8Y MS' . l/ I NNER :
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AND TRANSCRIB!NG, INC. i ArN oFFtcE, RAt E|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
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i6
A WHY DID YOU COMPARE IT TO A SINGLE SEAT
ELECTION?
A BECAUSE IT IS AN AT_LARGE ELECTION WITH A
NUMBERED PLACE SYSTEM WHICH GENERATES THE SAME KINDS OF
HEAD-ON-HEAD CONTEST AS IN A SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT SYS-
TEM AND AS I INDICATE IN EXHIBIT--I BELIEVE IT'S 12--IN
ANALYZ I NG I'1ULTI -MEMBER DI STRI CT SYSTEMS WI TH THE NUMBERED
PLACE SYSTEM, THE APPROPRIATE COMPARISON IS TO SINGLE
MEMBER DI STRICTS.
A AND IN THI'S CASE ON AVERAGE WHAT PERCENTAGE
OF WHITES DID NQT VOTE FOR B.LACKS IN THE PRIMAP.IES?
MR. LEONARDi IN WHIcH CASE?
}1S . WI NNER: I N THE CASE BEFoRE THE
COURT TODAY.
THE WTTNESS: IN THE 53 ELECTIoNS LoOKED
AT--YES. IN THE 53 CASES THAT I ANALYZED, IN PRIMARIES
ON AVERAGE 81t7 PERCENT OF WHiTES Dl'D NOT VOTE FOR BLACK
CANDI DATES.
BY MS. WINNER:
A AND IN GENERAL ELECTIONS/ WHAT PERCENTAGE OF
WIIITES DID NOT VOTE FOR BLACK CANDIDATES?
A 63,5 PERCENT.
a Not^/, oN cRoss-ExAMINATION yOU CALCULATED THE
AVERAGE SIZE OF A NORTH CAROLINA HOUSE DISTRICT?
A YES; I DI D-.
a P, O. 8d r'l*!
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
,; I
{r )-
IN
A AND THAT AVEP.AGE
THE STATE?
I.NCLUDED ALL THE DI STRI CTS
THAT I S (:OP.RE CT .
DOES THE FACT THAT AVERAGE S I ZE I N NORTH
CAROLINA IS NOT HIGHER THAN SOME OR ALL OF THOSE LARGEST
AVERAGES IN THE COUNTRY CHANGE YOUR OPINI.ON ABOUT WHETHER
I',IECKLENBURG COUNTY IS AN UNUSUALLY LARGE HOUSE DISTRICT?
A N0, IT DOES NOT.
A DOES IT CHANGE YOUR OPINION ABOUT WHETHER
FORSYTH COUNTY IS AN UNUSUALLY LAP.GE HOUSE DISTRICT?
A NO, rr DOES NOT.
q DOES IT CHANGE YOUR OPINION ABOUT WHETHER
VJAKE COUNTY I5 AN UNUSUALLY LARGE HQUSE DISTRICT?
NO., I T DOE.5 NOT .
q DOES IT CHANGE YOUP. OPINION ABOUT WHETHER
THE WILSON-EDGECOMBE-.T.IASH DISTRICT IS AN UNUSUALLY
LARGE HOUSE DISTRTCT?
NO, IT DOES r.tOT.
WHAT IS THAT OPTNION?
THAT OPINION IS THAT ALL THESE DISTRICTS ARE
LAP.GE HOUSE DISTR.ICTS RELATIVE TO EITHER THE AVERAGE
S I ZE OF THE STATES I^II TH THE LARGEST AVERAGE S I zE HOUSE
DI STRI CTS OR, EVEN MORE PARTI CULARLY, I^/I TH RESPECT To
NORTH CAROLINA SINCE NORTH CAROLINA FOUR, FIVE, SIX AND
EIGHT ARE HIGHER THAN ?.91.. THE FIGURE CALCULATED FOR
F l. O. Bor 2atc3
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA
zL8
NORTH CAROLINA.
A AND DRAWING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE SENATE, DOES
THE FACT THAT NORTH CAROLINAIS AVERAGE SENATE DISTRICT--_
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) WHY DON'T
YOU SHORTCUT THAT AND ASK HIM THE SAt/tE QUESTI ON. THI S
IS JUST NAILS IN THE COFFINI ALL OF THIS IS IN THE RECOR
AND YOU ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO EMPHASIZE THAT HIS CONCLUSI
IS UNCHANGED.
BY I4S. WINNER:
A IS YoUR CONCLUSION UNCHANGED ABOUT THE MECKLEN
BURG_CABARRUS SENATE DISTRICT?
A IT IS NOT; IT IS BOTH UNCHANGED AND REIN_
FORCED SINCT A WITHIN NoRTH CARoLINA CoMPARISoN STRENG-
THENS THE POINT MADE YESTERDAY.
A I JUST HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTION. YOU TESTI-
FIED YESTERDAY THAT THE REASON THAT SOMETIMES WHITE
PEOPLE_-THAT SOMETIMES BLACK CANDIDATES LOST AND SOME.
TIMES BLACK CANDIDATES WON. . DOES THE FACT THAT BLACK
CANDIDATES SOMETIMES WIN CHANGE YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE
EXISTENCE OF RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING EITHER AT A STA_
TISTICALLY OR. SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT LEVEL IN NORTH
CAROL I NA ?
A NO, IT DOES NOT.
MS. WINNERI I HAVE NO OTHER QUESTIONS.
I\1R . LEONARD : N0 RECROS S, yoUR HONOR .
A 2. O. Bor 2trB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ING. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
zt9
EXAMINATION
BY JUDGE DUPREE:
A I WOULD LIKE TO ASK DR. GROFMAN IF THE STUDY
OF THE KIND YOU HAVE MADE AND ON WHICH YOU HAVE BASED
THE CONCLUSIONS GIVEN US ASSUMES THAT ALL CANDIDATES,
REGARDLESS OF RACE, ARE EQUALLY QUALIFIED IN ALL OF THESE
ELECTI ONS ?
A IT MAKES NO ASSUMPTIONS WHATSOEVER ABOUT RELA_
TIVE QUALIFICATIONS OF CANDIDATES SINCE THQSE, I BELIEVE,
THAT JUDGMENT SHOULD BE MAOT BY VOTERS.
A How CAN YoU BE SURE THAT THE ELECTIoN RESULTS
DO NOT REFLECT.JUDGMENT OF THE VOTERS AS TO THE RELATIVE
QUALIFICATIONS OF THE CANDIDATES AND NOT NECESSARILY
THETR RACIAL PREFERENCES?
A I CANNQT REA.D THE MINDS OF THE VOTERS, BUT
WHEN BLACK VOTERS CONSISTENTLY RANK BLACK CANDIDATES ONE
OR TWO IN THEIR PREFERENCE ORDERING AND WHITE VOTERS
CONS.ISTENTLY RANK BLACK CANDIDATES AT THE BOTTOM OF THEIR
PREFERENCE ORDERING IN A SOCIETY WHICH HAS A HISTORY OF
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION AND IN WHi.CH THERE IS CLEAR RACIAL
POLARI ZATION, IT SEEMS TO ME A PLAUSIBLE, INDEED,. THE
MOST PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION IS THAT RACE IS WHAT IS DETER-
MINING THE ELECTTONS.
.JUDGE DUPREEE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SIR.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
.'frA
EXAMINATION
BY JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
a DR. GRoFMAN, LET f'4E ASK .JUST A COUPLE 0F
QUESTIONS ABOUT BACKGROUND FOR THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU
HAVE. STATED. TQ WHAT EXTENT ARE THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU
HAVE GIVEN ABOUT THE DISTANCE OF RACIAL POLARIZATION AND
THE CONDITION OF SUBI4ERGENCE AS THE TERM HAS BEEN USED
IN THIS CASE BASED UPON THE LEGAL ORDER THAT HAS DEVELOPE
ARE THESE JUDGMENTS_-ARE THESE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU CON_
SIDER ARE GIVEN IN THE LEGAL CONTEXT OF THE VOTING RIGHTS
ACT ?
A I ICOULD NOT PRESUI\,IE TO MAKE A LEGAL L'UDGMENT
AS TO HOI^I THE LANGUAGE IN SECTION I I AND THE DISCUSSIoN
OF SECTION II THAT SAYS THAT ONE OF THE FACTORS TO BE
TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IS RACIAL POLARIZATION OUGHT TO BE
CONSTRUED BY THE CQURT.
IVHAT I AS AN EXPERT WITNESS MAY DO IS TO PRO-
VIDE FOR THE COURT AS A E:OCIAL SCIENTIST DEFINITIONS
WHICH ARE GENERALLY RECOGNIZED WITHIN THE. SOCIAL SCIENCE
COI,IMUNITY AND FACTS I{HICH SHOW THE APPLICATIONS OF THOSE
DEFINITIONS TO THIS NORTH CAROLINA SITUATIQN.
THEN FOR THAT REASOI\I YOU DO NOT CTJNSIDER THIS
WITHIN YOUR BRIEF TO TRY TO ASSESS THE EFFECT OF SUCH
THINGS AS DEMOGP.APHIC SHIFTS IN POPULATION AS THEY I4IGHT
a P. O. lor ralm
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
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BEAR UPON THE QUESTION OF \^/HETHER THERE I S THE KIND OF
RESULT CONTEMPLATED BY THE VOTING RIGHTS ACTT
A COULD YOU BE A L I TTLE MORE SPECI.FI C ABOUT
I,/HAT DEMOGRAPH I C SHI FTS YoU HAD I N MIND?
q IT WOULD BE P.ELEVANT/ I. TAKE TT, IF IT WERE-.
IF THE QUESTION BEING EXPLORED WERE WHETHER THERE IS AN
ABRIDGEMENT OF VOTING RI.GHTS PRESENTLY. I.N EFFECT, TO TAKE
INTO ACCOUNT WHETHER THAT ABRIDGEMENT DEPENDING UPON
GROuplNGs oF RAcIAL CATEGORIES, wAS'IN A srATE oF FLLrx,
THAT IS, WHETHER PEOPLE ARE MOVING OUT OF THE BLACK AREAS
OF CHARLOTTE.
A I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE GEOGRAPHIC PATTERNS
OVER TI.ME IN CHARLOTTE OTFTER THAN THAT WHICH WAS PRE-
SENTED TN THE MAP5 SHOI,J.INS DRAMATICALLY CONCENTRATED
BLACK F.OPULATToNS. IN THE CITY..
A YOUR CONCLU.S I ONS AP.E COMPARED TO AN ASSESSMENT
oF THE EXISTENCE OF RACIAL PoLARIzATIoN, As you CoNCEIVE
IT TO BE ON THE BASIS OF DEMOGRAPHIC FACTORS?
A AS THEY EXISTED IN tlB TO t9B2; THAT IS COR_
RECT. :
a AND WHEN yOU FoRECAST AS SOML oF youR TESTI-
MONY DID THAT THE RACIAL POLARIZAT I.ON WH'I.CH YOU THINK
EXISTS AS A FACT TN NORTH CAROLINA NOW WILL CONTINUE INTO
THE FORES,EEABLE I.JEAR FUTURE, YOU ARE NOT TAKING INTO
ACCOUNT I^/HEN YOU OUG}TT TO BE TAKING INTO ACCOLINT ANY
F P. O. Bq 2al6
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FACTORS HAVING TO DO WITH SUCH THINGS AS DEMOGRAPHIC
SHIFTS OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT?
A NO; THE ONLY FACTORS WHICH I--FIRST, r WOULD
ONLY HAVE MADE SUCH A STATEMENT I{ITH RESPECT TO ELECTIONS
FOR THE IMMEDIATE PERTOD OF 1994. tVE ARE, OF COURSE, NOW
IN 1983 AND SECONDLY, TO THE EXTENT THAT I DID LOOK AHEAD
AT 1984, I LOOKED AT DATA WHICH WOULD LEAD ONE TO DIS-
TINGUISH 1984 FROI4 I9B2, FACTS WHICH ARE KNOWN IN ADVANCE
AB'OUT 1984 THAT WOULD LEAD ONE T0 BELTEVE THAT IT WOULD
BE DI FFERENT.
A THEN TT I.S YQUR CQNCLUS i ON ABOUT THE EXI STENCE
OF SUBSTANTIAL RAC TAI POLARI ZATI'CN INCLUDE A CONCLUS I ON
THAT JT IS ESSENTIALLY, INTRANSIENT, IMMUTABLE, IN T'HE
PRESENT STATE CF THINGS IN NORTH CAROLINA?
I CAN}IUT CRYSTAL BALL. GAZE. I CAN oNLY
COMMENT OI'I THAT WHICH .IS AND HAS BEEN FOR A CONSIDERABLE
SEGMENT OF NORTH CAP.ULINAIS HISTORY.
q Do you DISCoUNT THOSE SITUATIONS IN t/HrCH you
CANDIDLY AND HONESTLY CONCEDED THAT YOU THOUGHT HERE
WAS. NOT SUBSTANTIAL RACIAL POLAIII ZATION REVEALED? DO
YOU, AS I LINDERSTAND IF, DISCOUNT THEIR SIGNIFICANCE IN
YOUR OVERALL ASSESSMENT IN TERMS OF PECULIAR FEATURES
THAT YOU FIND IN THOSE ELECTIONS?
A AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS OF INSTANCES.
OF THE 32 ELECTION PROCESSES--PRIMARY PLUS GENERAL--THERE
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ONLY WERE TWO OF THOSE 32 I.N WHICH I FOUND ANY REASON
FOR FINDING OTHER THAN SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL
POLARI ZATI ON, AND THOSE Tl^/O CASES DO HAVE SPECI FI C
FEATURES TO THEM.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS "I
MS. UINNER:
CLARIFYING QUESTION BASED QN
FURTHER REDI.RECT
THANK YoU, DOCTOR.
COULD I JUST ASK ONE
YOUR QUEST I ONS -<,JUST
EXAMINATI
11:
ONE ?
ON
00 A.M.
BY MS . WI NNER:
IN EXAMINING THE PRECINT DATA BY RACE IN
THESE CITIES, DID y0U SEE--THE pRECINCT REcISTRATION__
DTD Y.OU SEE ANY SHI FT I,N THE BLACK OR WHITE POPULATION,
OR I'4IXTURE OF BLACK AND WHI.TE POPULATION OVER THESE
FIVE YEr'.RS?
ilUDGE PHTLLTPS: NOW, COUNSEL, I ASKED THE
QUESTION IF HE TOOK INTO ACCOUNT IN REACHING ANY OF
H I S CONCLUS I ONS ANY DEMOGRAPI.II C FACTORS OF THAT K I ND AND
HIS ANSWER HONESTLY WAS, ''NO,'I AND I THINK THAT IS A
SUFFICIENT ANSI^JER.
MS. WINNER: THANK
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK
(wlrruess EXcusED.)
JUDGE PHI.LLI PS: WE ARE
IN ABOUT FIVE MINUTES. DO YOU WANT
GOING TO TAKE A BREAK
TO CALL YOUR NEXT
YOU.
YOU.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI-IOENIX, ARIZONAA P, O. eor 2it.il
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'224
WITNESS AND IS HE GOING TO BE A WITNESS YOU ARE GOING
TO QUALIFY AS AN EXPERT?
MS. WINNER: YES, SIR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS; WHY DoNtT YoU CALL HIM AND
LETTS. SEE ABOUT HtS qUALIFTCATIONS.
MS. WINNER: YoUR HoNoR, THE PLAINTIFFS
CALL HARRY'WATSONq
( wn r Re upoN
HARRY WATSON
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTTFIED AS
FOLLOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 11:01.A.M.
BY MS. WINNER:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?
A HARRY I^!ATSON..
JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, THIS IS NOT A JURY
TRIAL AND WE HAVE A YERY HANDSOME VITAE HERE BEFORE US.
IF YOU WILL MAKE A PERFUNCTORY OFFERING OF THE QUALIFI-
I
CATI.ONS, THEN IF MR' LEQNAP'D HAS ANY SERIOUS OBJECTIONS
TO THE qUALIFICATIONS OF THIS WITNESS WE WTLL OPEN UP
FOR THEM, BUT l^/E DON|T NEED TO GO THROUGH THIS.
MS. WINNER: YES, SIR.
BY M5. WINNERi
A WHAT IS YQU.R ADDRESS?'i
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XXX
XXX
XXX
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779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
225
A
CAROL I NA.
rt'(
A
a
A
n
A
H I S TORY,
1OO BRIARPATCH LANE, CHAPEL HILL, NORTH
AND WHAT IS YOUR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT?
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLI.NA AT CHAPEL HILL.
WHAT I S. Y.OUR POS T T I ON THERE ?
I AM ,ASSOCIATE PROFESSoR 0F HT.STORY,
AND WHAT ARE YOUR AREAS QF SPECIALIZATION?
AMERI,CAN POLI rrCAL H tSTORy/ AMER I CAN SOCr AL
NORTH CAROLINA HI'STORY, SOUTHERN HI STORY.
HAVE YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY THE
RACIAL INVOLVEMENT IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS FROM 1868
TO THE PRESENT?
YES.
I.IHAT SOURCES HAVE Y.OU CONSULTED?
A I HAVE CONSULTED THE COURT DECISIONS, OFFICIAL
REPORTS,, ELECTION RETURNS, THE PRESS OF THE STATE, STAN-
DARD SE.CONDARY. SOURCES INCLUDING LUFFERN AND HOUSTONTS
VOLUME II, SOUTHERN POLITICS, THE STATE AND NATION,
GORE AND RUDALL, THE AMERICAN DRAMA AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS
I CAN GO ON IF YOU WTSH.
A
A I HAND YOU WHAT
EXHIBIT NUMBER 21 AND ASK
oF Y6UR VITAE?
A YES, IT IS.
HAS BEEN MARKED
YOU IF THAT IS AN
AS PLAINTI FF I S
ACCURATE COPY
TE.XT, . oF. A. SbUTHERN STATE,
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(PLAiNTIFF EXHIBIT 2I wAS
MARKED FOR I DENTI FI CATI ON. )
MS. WINNER: I TENDER DR. WATSON AS AN
EXPERT IN NORTH CAROLINA HISTORY AND IN PARTICULAR IN
NORTH CAROLINA POLITICAL HISTORY,
L,UDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL ACCEPT HIS TESTIMONY
AND QUALIFY HII,I AS AN EXPERT IN THAT FIELD.
MSN WINNER: I MOVE ADMISSIQN OF PLAIN-
TIFFIS EXHIBIT 2I.
.JUDGE PHILLI.PS; LET IT BE ADMITTED. LETIS
TAKE A RECESS UNTIL 11;20.
(PI.RINTIFF EXHIBIT 2I WAS
BECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
(TNe PROcEEDING WAS RECESSED AT 1].:05 A.M.
T0 BE RECONVENED AT 11:20 A.M., THIS SAME DAy.
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779.36.t9 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARiZONA
22',7
F U R T H E R P R o C E E D I N G S 11:20 A.M.
JUDGE DUPREE: LET ME SEE YOU, MS. WINNER,
AT THE BENCH .JUST A MOMENT ABOUT ANOTHER CASE.
( BENCH CoNFERENCE_-UNREPoRTED . )
(WH E RE UPON
HARRY I'IATSON
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FoLLoWS:)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
(RESUMED)
BY MS. WINNER:
q DR. WATSON, CAN YOU VERY BRIEFLY DESCRIBE
THE PARTICIPATION OF BLACK CITIZENS IN POLITICS OF NORTH
CAROLINA DURING THE PERIOD BETWEEN 1868 AND 1898?
A YES; BLACK M.4LES P.ECE I VED rHE VOTE---
MR. LEONARD: (INTERPOSING) IF THE COURT
PLEASE, IF I MIGHT HAVE.JUST.A MOMENT TO MAKE AN OBJECTI
AND ANT I C I PATE THE I NTRODU CT I ON OF SOI.4E DOCUMENTS THAT
I,IOULD BE DEFENDANTST--I tM SORRY=-GENERAL PLAINTIFFTS
EXHIBITS 22 THRoUGH 37, AND MORE SpECtFICALLY TO THAT
QUESTION AND THAT LINE OF TESTIMONY.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS COURT CAN TAKE
,JUDICIAL NOTICE AND IS WELL INFORMED '^/ITH RESPECT TO
THE HI STORY OF NORTH CAP.OLINA. RULE 40] OF THE RULES
o
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OF EVI DENCE STATE THAT, ". . . ALTHOUGH RELEVANT, r'-_THAT
IS, EVEN IF THE COUP.T SHOULD FIND THIS TESTII'IONY AND
THIS KIND OF DOCUMENT IN EVIDENCE TO BE ADMISSABLE AND
SOMEWHAT RELEVANT,
..IT MAY BE EXCLUDED IF PROBATIVE
VALUE SUBSTANTIALLY OUTWEIGHED BY THE DANGER
OF UNFAI R PRE.JUDI CE AND CONFUS}ON OF THE I S_
SUES AND ALSO CONSIDERATIONS OF UNDUE DELAY/
A WASTE OF TIME, OR NEEDLESS PRESENTATION.''
MOST CERTAINLY IT IS AN UNDUE WASTE OF TII4E,
BUT I^JI TH RESPECT SPECI FI CALLY TO THE QUESTI oN oF PRE-
JUDICE, I DONIT THINK I NEED TO CALL TO THE COURT'S
ATTENTION THAT EViDEI.ICE WHI CH GETS INTRODUCED BEFOP.E
THIS, A THP.EE-JUDGE FEDERAL COURT, IS PICKED UP BY THE
RECORDS OF THIS COURT AND IS THEN SUBSEQUENTLY USED IN
oTHER PRoCEEDINGS, PARTICULARLY TESTIMoNY--I'M SoRRY--
PARTICULARLY THE KINDS OF EVIDENCE THAT THE GINGLES
PLAINTIFFS PUR,PORT TO OFFER NOT ONLY IN THESE EXHIBITS,
22 THRoUGH 37, BUT Sol'1E oF THE QTHER EXHIBITS WHI CH WE
I.JI LL FACE LATER.
MY OBJECTION TO TI1E TESTIMONY GOING BACK TO
i B9B AND THE NEWSPAPER ARTI CLES, ET .qEIERA, AS P.EMOTE
FROM THE FACTS OF TI.IIS CASE. THE ISSUE IS: WHAT IS
THE SITL'ATION AS IT WAS FACED BY THE LEGISLATURE IN 1981
AND I82 WHEN THEY ADOPTED THESE PLANS. THEREFORE, I
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2,29
OBJECT WITH RESPECT TO THE RELEVANCE, THL, MATERIALITY
AND THE HEARSAY NATURE OF ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE.
,JUDGE PHI LLIPS: YOUR OBJECTION AT THIS TIME
IS TO THE ONLY QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN ASKED WHICH IS TO
ASK THIS EXPERT IN MATTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA HI STOP.Y TO
ADDRESS US UPON THE HISTORY OF RACIAL ANIMUS, DISCRIT4INA-
TION IN THIS STATE STARTING FROM 1898. U/HAT DO YOU HAVE
TO SAY TO THAT GENERAL OBJECTION?
MS . I{ I NI.IER : I HAVE SEVEP.AL RESPONSES.
THE FIRST IS THAT THE QUESTION BEFORE THE COUIIT IS NOT
IvHAT I,/AS I N THE I'1I NDS 0F THE LEG I SLATORS t,JHEN THEy DREtv
THIS APPORTIONMENT PLAN. IT WAS h'HAT THE RESULTS OF___
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPoSING) THE QUESTIoN
BEFORE THE COURT IS h/HETHER IN EXPLORING THE TOTALITY OF
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT BEAR UPCN THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE
ACTION OF REDISTRICTING RESULTS IN THE ABRIDGEMENT OF
THE VOTING RIGHTS, WHETHER THE HISTORY THAT YOU OFFER IS
RELEVANT A5 A PART OF THE TGTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES. OB-
VIOUSLY AT SOME POINT BACK IN HISTORY IT GETS SORT OF
I.,IOOT, BUT EVEN THE MOST TOLERANT VIEW OF IT WOULD BE OUT
OF BOUNDS. MY OU/N VIEW IS THAT WE SHOULD RECEIVE THE
TESTIMONY THAT YOU HAVE ASKED FOR AT THIS POINT AND IF
THERE IS SPECIFIC OB.JECTION TO ITS GETTING OUT OF BOUNDS
AND WANDERING TOO FAR AFIELD, WE CAN ENTERTAIN THEM AT
THE TIME, SO I I.JILL OVERRULE THE OBJECTION AT THIS TIME'o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
30
AND COUTISE L CAN RENE\^/ H I S
PORTIONS OF THE TESTIMONY
ARE OFFERED. THEY OFFER
QUI TE FRANKLY.
OBJE CT I ONS TO SPEC I F I C
AND TO THE EXHIBITS WHEN THEY
QUITE DIFFERENT PROBLEMS TO ME,
THE WITNESS:
TION, PLEASE?
WOULD YOU REPEAT THE QUES-
BY MS . WI NNER:
a DR. WATSoN, WOULD YOU VERY BRIEFLY--VERY
BRIEFLY--RECOUNT THE HISTOP.Y OF RACIAL INVOLVEMENT IN
THE POLITICS OF NORTH CAROLINA DURING THE PERIOD BETWEEN
1868 AND i89B?
YES. BLACK MALES RECEIVED THE VOTE IN.THIS
STATE IN 1868 AND THEY EXERCISED IT FREQUENTLY FOR THE
NEXT SEVERAL YEARS, ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY IN THE REPUBLICAN
FARTY. THE REPUBLICAN PAP.TY CONTROLLED NQRTH CAROLINA
POLITICS FOR SEVERAL
?F
THOSE YEARS AND BY L875, HOWEVER,
THE DEMQCP.ATS WHICH WERE EXCLUSIVELY, QR ALMOST EXCLUSIVE
AND WHITE PARTY REGATNED COI.ITROL OF THE STATE/ CA,LLED A
CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION IN
SUCH A 1,^'AY THAT WOULD DRASTI CALLY REDUCE BLACK POLI TI CAL
PARTICIPATION.
FOR THE REST OF TI1E CENTURY BLACKS CONTI NUED
TQ VOTE AND TO RUN FOR OFFICE AND TO BE ELECTED TO OFFICE
ON A MUCH LOWER LEVEL THAN HAD BEEN THE CASE BEFOP.E 1875,
BUT IT HAD NOT BEEN REDUCED TO NEGLIGIBLE LEVELS.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I N THE 189 O I S, TH I S AP.RANGEMENT BROKE APART
BECAUSE A NU}4BER OF WHITES IN THE STATE, PARTICULARLY
ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED FARMERS, FELT THAT THE CONTROL
OF THE STATE BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS DISADVANTAGEOUS
TO THEIR INTERESTS. THEY LEFT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND
FORMED A THIRD PAP.TY, THE POPULIST PARTY, AND IN COALITIO
I^,I TH THE REPUBLI CAN PAR,TY WHTCH CONSI STED OF BLACKS AND
WHITES PRIMARILY. BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY IN THE MOUNTAIN RE-
GION$ OF THE STATE, WERE ASLE TO GET CONTROL OF THE STATE
BETWEEN 1894 AND LBgB. THAT COALITION WAS KNOWN AS THE
FUSION MOVEMENT.
AI.]D I^IHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT FUSION MOVE-
MENT ?
A DURING THE PERIOD OF FUSIONIST CQNTROL, THE
LEGISLATURE CHANGED A NUI.,IBER OF PROCEDURES OF LOCAL
GQVERNMENT AND METHOD OI CONDUCTING ELECTTQNS TO MAKE IT
MORE PQSSIBLE FQR BLACKS TO PARTICIPATE I.N THE PQLITICAL
PROCESS, THEY DEMOCRATIZED GQUNTY GOVERNMENT, MAKING
LOCAL ELECTI ONS FOR LOCAL GQVERNI.4ENT AGAI N POSS I BLE. THEY
CHANGED THE VOTING REGISTRATTON PRQCE.DURE TO I,1AKE IT MORE
ACCESSIBLE TO BLACKS., AND THEY BEGAN TO PASS LEGISLATION
THAT WOULD FAVOR THE ECOI.IOI4IC INTERESTS OF THE DISAD-
VANTAGED OF BOTH RACES-. BOTH I.JH I TE AND BLACK .
WHAT WAS THE RESPONSE OF THE DEMOCRATS TO
THAT ?'a
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A THEY WERE EXTRET4ELY HOSTILE TO THOSE LAWS,
BOTH THE POLITICAL LAWS AND THE SUBSTANTIVE ECONOMIC
LAWS, AND THEY DETERMINED TO END BLACK POLITICAL PARTICI-
PATION IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS ALTOGETHER IN ORDER TO
BE SUP.E THAT NO COALITION OF ECONOMTCALLY DISADVANTAGED
PEOPLE WOULD EVER BE ABLE TQ TAKE CONTROL OF STATE POLI-
TTCS AGAIN.
q DID T}1AT FUSIOTI LEGISLATURE END OFFICIAL DIS.
CRI14INATION--OFFICIAL SEGREGATION AT THAT TIME?
N0, IT DID NoT.
HOW DID THE DEMOCRATS GO ABOUT BF.'.EAKING UP
THIS COALITION?
A THEY LAUNCHED IdHAT I WOULD CALL Vi OLENTLY
RACIST PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN IN THE LEGISLATIVE ELECTION
OF 1898. THIS ELECTION WAS GIVEN THE NAME BY THE DEMO-
CRATS AS THE ''WHITE SUPREMACY'I CAMPAIGN AND THEY FILLED
UP THE STATETS DEMOCRATIC PRESS WITH NEWS STORIES AND
CARTOONS AND EDITOP.IALS EXTREMELY HOSTILE TO BLACKS AND
ATTEMPTED TO PERSUADE VOTERS AND P.EADERS OF NEI^ISPAPERS
THAT NORTH CAROLINA WAS UNDER NEGRO RULE, THAT THERE WAS
AN ONS.LAUGHT OF SAVAGERY PARTICULARLY IN EASTERN NORTH
CAROLINA AND THE LARGER TOWNS. OF NORTH CAROLINA WHERE
B LACKS I^/ERE MORE POL I.T I CALLY ACT I VE .
AT NO TIME WEP.E BLACKS A MAJORITY OF THE
LEGISLATURE OR A LARG-E--AT NO TIME DTD THEY RECEIVE ANYta
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CONTROLLING NUMBER OF OFFICES AT THE APPOINTED LEVEL OR
AT THE STATE ELECTED LEVEL, BUT THEIR PARTIcIPATIoN IN
POLITICS WAS SIGNIFICANT AND THE OPPONENTS OF THE REPUBLI
CANS, OR THE FUSIONISTS, CALLED THIS NEGRO RULE-_NEGRo
DOMINATION. THE RESULT OF THAT DEGREE OF--THERE WAS ALSO
SOME VIOLENT INTIMIDATION INVOLVED BY AN ORGANIZATION
CALLED THE ''RED SHIRTS'I WHI'CH WAS ORGANIZED TO BREAK UP
BLACK AND REPUBLICAN AND POPULIST POLITICAL MEETINGS AND
TO INTIMIDATE VOTERS.
q NOW, DO YOU HAVE
BI TS NUMBER 22 AND 23?
YES.
AS A RESULT OF THE PROPAGANDA
THE DEMOCRATS WERE ABLE TO GET CONTROL OF
AGAI.N IN 1898.
AND THE VIOLENCE,
THE LEGI SLATURE
BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFFIS EXHI-
CpIeTruTTnr E.XHIBITS 22 AND 2
WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATI
THE NEWS
WHAT ARE THEY?
A THEY ARE CARTOONS WHICH APPEARED IN
AND OBSERVER. THE FIRST ONE.,--
A (INTERPOSING) IS THAT THE RALEIGH NEwS AND
OB.S E R.VER ?
A YES; TllAr IS CORRECT. pLAINTI.FFTS EXHIBIT
NUMBER 22 APPEARED ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE RALEIGH NEWS
AND, o.B,SERVER oN THE 30TH oF sEPTEMBER, 1898, AND NUMBER(o
F F. O. &r lArB
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AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH. 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
234
23 APPEARED ON OCTOBER 15TH,
IS DEPICTED IN
1898.
THE PICTURE ON EXHIBITa wHo
NUMBER 22?
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I AM
GOING TO OBJECT TO THE USE OF THESE DOCUMENTS ON THE
GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE NUMBER ONE, HEARSAY' AND UNDER
RULE 801 OF THE FEDERAL RULES OF EVIDENCE THEY.ARE NOT
COVERED BY THE NON-HEARSAY' PROVI.STONS OF THAT RULE, AND
THEY'ARE NOT ADMI.SSIBLE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE HEARSAY RULE.
THEY' ARE ALSO IRR.ELEVANT UNDER RULES 401 ET SEQUAE on
THE FEDERA.L RULES OF EVIDENCE.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
VANCY OBJECTi ON?
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE'RELE_
MS . WI NNER: THE RELEVANCY OBJECTION IS
FIRST OF ALL THAT LATER TESTIMONY WILL SHOW THAT THIS
IS THE BEGINNING OR A T.YPI CAL EXAMPLE OF A USE OF RACIAL
APPEALS WHICH, I'N FACT, HAS CONTINUED AND CONTINUES. I
THINK, IN FACT/ THE COURT WItL FIND A STRIKING SIMILARITY
BETWEEN THE 1983 RACIAL APPEALS AND THE 1898 RACIAL AP-
PEALS .. I.T I S THE WAY I N WH I CH BLACK PEOPLE WERE DI SEN_
FRANCHISED IN THIS STATE. IT SHOWS AN EXAMPLE OF THE
WAY BLACK PEOPLE WERE DISFRANCHISED, AND I BELIEVE THAT
THE DISFRANCHISEMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE IN 189A AND 19OO
WHICH WILL GET LINKED UP WITH SUBSEQUENT TESTIMONY ABOUT
THE POLL TAX.ta
F P. O. Eor 2llci
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IT IS CENTRAL TO THIS CASE BECAUSE IT IS THE
BEGINNING OF THE REASON WHY BLACK PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE EF_
FECTIVE PARTI CIPATION TODAY.
AS TO THE HEARSAY PROBLEM, RULE BO3(16) HAS A
CLEAR E,XCEPTION FOR STATEMENTS IN ANCIENT DOCUMENTS, THAT
IS, DQCUMENTS IN EXCESS QF 20 YEARS OR MORE THE AUTHENTI_
CI-TY.QF WHICH IS ESTABLI.SHED. THERE IS No otsJECTIoN To
THE AUTHENTI CITY OF THIS EXHIBIT.
.JUDGE PHI LLTPS: I THI NK WE WI LL RECE IVE THESE
DOCUI'IENTS, THE ONES THAT ARE OFFERED NO\^,, SUBJECT TO RULIN
LATER QN RE. ADMISSIBILITY AND DEPENDING ON HOW THERE IS A
LINK-UP. THAT SAVES US THE JUSTIFYING OF PUTTING IN THIS
RECORD DOCUMENTS REFLECTING AN ATTITUDE AS OLD AS THAT OF
1898. I THINK THAT WHAT COUNSEL SAYS THAT IS A PART OF
THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH YOU INTEND TO PROVE
STILL CONTAINS AND THERE IS A RECQRD UPON THE CONDITTON
OF BLACK VOTERS AT THTS TIME-_THAT THESE DO HAVE RELE-
VANCE AND I AM FRANK TO SAY TO YOU THAT I T SEE,MS TO ME
ONLY ON THE OUTER FRINGES AS I RECEIVE IT. BUT WE WILL
RECEIVE IT AT THIS TIME SUB.JECT TO A LATER MOTION THAT
THEY BE EXCLUDED, DEPENDING UPON THE COURSE OF TESTII4ONY.
BY MS. WINNER:
WHAT DOES EXHIBIT 22 DEPICT?
THE LARGE MAN IN THE CARTOON IS GOVERNOR
DANIEL LI.NDSAY RTJSSELL-.
a
A
F P. O. lor 2atat
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
632
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I AI.1
GOING TO OBJECT TO HIS NARRATIVE. THE COURT HAS THE
EXHIBITS BEFORE THEM. I BELIEVE THEY CAN SEE FOR THEM-
SELVES AND I T WI LL BURDEN THIS RECOP.D WI TH TESTIMOI'IY.
WE CAN ALL SEE WHAT THEY SAY.
L,UDGE PHI LLI PS: I THINK THE OBL,ECTI oN I S
I^JELL TAKEN, COUNSEL, TO THE EXTENT YOU NEED TO GIVE
SPECIAL COLQR TO ANY OF THESE EXHIBITS YOU CAN CERTAINLY
DO IT.BUT THEY DO SEEM PRETTY STRONGLY TO SPEAK FOR THEM-
SELVES AND WE DONIT HAVE A JURY HERE. WE HAVE THREE
UNITED STATES JUDGES WHO PRESUMABLY ARE ABLE BOTH TO
PURGE THEIR MINDS OF ANY PREJUDICE THIS MIGHT BRING AND
ALSO TO GAUGE THEIR RELEVANCE WITH SOME CARE.
WE ALSO HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO REASON WHAT
TFJEY.ARE W.ITHOUT BURDENING THE RECORD WITH A NARRATIVE
ACCOUNT THAT TELLS US WHAT IS PERFECTLY OBVIOUS.
MS. WINNER: I DO NOT INTEND TO HAVE DR.
WATSON EXPLAIN EACH OF THE CARTOONS,BY. A LONG SHOT. THIS
ONE IN PARTICULAR/ I DID NOT KNOW WHO EITHER OF THE PEOPLE
rN THE CARTOON WAS AND I DO THINK IT IS SUBJECT---
JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) I AM PRO-
LONGING THE THING MYSELF BY TRYING TO CAUTION YOU, BUT
I DO ASK YOU TO EXERCISE A LITTLE P.ESTRAINT AI.ID REALIZE
THAT I,,HAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW IS LAYTNG BEFORE THIS
COURT A DESCRIPTION O_F THE PARTICULARS.OF A POLITICAL
A P. O. Eor 2ttGt
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
37
CARTOON THAT APPEARED IN 1898. THERE ARE BOUNDS TO THE
RELEVANCE OF THE DETAI LS OF DEsCRI PTI OI.I.
MS. WINNER: I WILL TRY AND KEEP IT BRIEF.
BY MS. WINNER:
A WAS THE RUSSELL IN THE CARTOON GOVERNOR AT
TFIAT TIME?
A YES.
A AND IS JIM YOUNG.-WHO IS .JIM YOUNG?
A HE I^TAS A PROMINENT BLACK POLITICIAN oF NORTH
CAROLI NA, REPUBLI:CAN PARTY,.
MS .. T^II NNER : I MOVE THE ADM I SS I ON OF
PLAINTIFF's EXHIBTTS 22 AND 2).
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS i WELL, WE WI LL ADMI T I T SUBJEC
TO THE RESERVATIQN EARLIER STATED THAT WE WILL ENTERTAIN
A MOT I ON LATER I.F COUNS EL I S DI SPOSED TO MAKE I T AFTER
ALL THE EVI DENCE HAS CO-I"IE I N, AND ADDRESSED TO WHETHER
IT IS ACTUALLY LINKED UP SUFFICIENTLY TO MAKE IT RELEVANT.
BY MS . IdI NNER: ..
A WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE DEMOCRATS REGAINED
CONTROL OF THE LEGISLATURE IN 1898?
A THEY ADOPTED AND SUBMI TTED TO THE VOTERS A
SERIES OF CONSTiTUTIONAL AI'lENDMENTS THAT WOULD II4POSE A
PULL TAX AND A LITERACY TEST FoR THE KIGHT TO VOTE AND
ALSO A GRANDFATHER CLAUSE EXEMPTING I'JHITES WHO WERE
EITHER ELIGIBLE'IN 1867 OR DESCENDED FROM SOMEBODY ELSE
F P. O. Bor 2ttB
LJ Rrhlch. Nodn C.rolm 274fi
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238
WHO WAS.
a Do YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU
NUMBER 24?
PLAINTI FF I S EXHI BI T
YES .
WHAT IS THAT EXHIBIT?
A THAT I S A CARTOON THAT APPEARED ON THE FRONT
PAGE OF THE RALEIGH t'aWSle*' or_gERVER ON JuLy 4. 1900.
IT WAS IN CONNECTION WITH THE CAMPAIGN TO HAVE THOSE
DISFRANCHISING AMENDMENTS PASSED IN THE UPCOMING GENERAL
ELECTI ON. THERE WERE CARTOONS LI.KE THI S FREQUENTLY I N
THE STATEIS PRESS AT THAT TIME.
AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THERE WERE CARTOONS
I N ANY. OTHER PAPERS BES.I DES THE RALE IGH NEI^/S AND OBSERVER?
A TI-1ERE WERE CARTOONS AND NEWSPAPER STORIES OF
S I MI LAR TYPE IN THE OTHER T.IEWSPAPERS OF THE STATE--
DEMOCRATI C PAPERS.
a
ADOPTED?
WEP.E THOSE PROPOSED DISFRANCHISING AMENDMENTS
YES, THEY WERE IN THE CAMPAIGN THAT WAS VERY
SIMILAR TO THE CAMPAIGN OF 1898 EXCEPT THAT REPUBLICAN
PARTICIPATION DROPPED DRAMATICALLY AS A RESULT OF THE
VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION THAT SURROUNDED IHE ELECTION
CAMPAI.GN TTSELF SO THAT, FURTHERMORE THE VOTES IN FAVOR
OF THE AMENDMENT IN SEVERAL COUNTIES OF THE STATE EXCEEDED
THE TOTAL NUMBER OF ADU-LT MALES IN THE POPULATION BY A!
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
239
SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER SO THAT IT WAS PRESUMABLY SOME COR_
RUPTION INVOLVED AS WELL.
DID THE BLACK REGISTERED VOTERS AT THAT TIME
PARTICIPATE IN THAT ELECTION?
A UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT A BLACK REGISTERED
VOTER WOULD VOTE AGAINST THE AMENDMENTS WHICH WERE DE_
SIGNED TO DISFRANCHISE THEM, IT IS SAFE To SAY THAT
PARTI CI PATION WAS DRASTI CALLY LOW IN THE BI.\ACK COM-
MUNI TY BECAUS.E THERE II/ERE VERY FEW VOTES RECORDED AGAI NST
THE AMENDMENT PARTICULARLY IN THOSE AREAS oF THE STATE
WITH THE HIGHEST BLACK POPULATION.
WHAT HAPPENED TO BLACK REGISTRATION AFTER
THOSE AMENDMENTS WERE PASSED?
A IT VIRTUALLY'DISAPPEARED.
A HOW WERE_,DRAWING YOUR ATTENTION TQ THE TIME
PERI0D BETI^,EEN 1900 AND 1.930, HOW WERE CANDIDATES NOMI*
NATED DURING THAT TIME?
A IVELL, AS A RESUL} OF THE ELI'MINATION OF BLACKS
FROI'4 THE VOT I NG PROCESS, THE REPUBL I CAN PARTY WAS REDUCED
TO A VERY SMALL PARTY BASED PR I.MAR I LY UPON WH ITES I N THE
MOUNTAINS AND A FEW OF THE COUNTIES IN THE STATE, THERE-
FORE ANYONE WHO RECEIVED THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION FOR
OFFI CE WAS--THE CLASS I C PHRASE WAS THAT DEI'IOCRATI C NOMI -
NATION IVAS TANTAMOUNT TO ELECTION.
IN OF.DER 19 PROVIDE THE WHITE VOTERS OF THE
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P. O. Bor 2ElGt
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'z4a
STATE WI.TH ANY SORT OF CHOI CE AT ALL, THE DEMOCRATI C
NOMINATION WAS CHANGED FROM A CONVENTION SYSTEM TO A
PR I I'IARY SYS TEM IN 19 1 5 .
A AND WHO WAS PERMITTED TO PARTICIPAIE IN THOSE
PRIMARIES?
A IT VARIED FROM COUNTY TO COUNTY, IN SEVERAL
COUNTIES OF THE STATE THERE WAS A PARTY RULE_=A DEMO-
CRATIC PARTY RULE--WHICH SAID THAT ONLY WHITES.WERE AL_
LOWED TO PARTICIPATE AS DEMOCRATIC PARTY MEMBERS IN THQSE
PRIMARI ES.
a
A
a'
DURING THIS
WAS IHAT PERMISSIBLE UNDER STATE LAW?
YES.
U'HAT WAS THE LEVEL OF SEGREGATION IN SOCIETY
TIME PERI OD BETVJEEN 19OO AND 19]O ?
ALMOST TOTAL. THE FIRST STGREGATION PROVISION
WERE ADOPTED IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY_-IN THE 1B7OIS.
THE. PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS SEGREGATED, THE PRISONS,
THE MENTAL INSTITUTIONS. FOL"LOWING THE DEMOCRATIC VIC-
TORY IN 1898 THE FIRST STATUTE WAS PASS'ED REQUIRING
SEPARATE BUT EQUAL ACCOMMODATIONS IN RAILROADS. THIS
I,JAS FOLLOVJED BY SUBSEQUENT LAWS VERY QUI CKLY IN THE NEXT
SEVERAL YEARS BANNING--RTQUIRING SEGREGATIoN IN STREET
CARS, IN WAITING ROOMS, IN TOILETS, IN CEMETERIES, IN
.JAILS, IN HOSPITALS-_PUBLIC FACILITIES OF VIRTUALLY EVERY
KINDo
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241
A AND HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY
SCHOOL FUNDING DURING THAT TIME?
YES, I HAVE.
WHAT ARE THE RESULTS UF THAT STUDY?
THE STATEtS SCHOOLS WERE RATHER UNDER_FUNDED
THROUGHOUT THE LATE IgTH CENTURY--SCHOOLS FOR BLACKS AND
SCHOOLS FOR WHITES.. AS PART OF THE CAMPAIGN TO GET THE
LITERACY TEST PASSED, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND PARTI_
CULARLY THE CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR, GOVERNOR AYCOCK, HAD
TO PROMISE WHITE VOTERS THAT THE SCHOQLS WOULD BE IM-
PROVED SO TI.IAT WHEN THE GRANDFATHER CLAUSE EXP I RED, I L_
LiTERATE WHITES WOULD NOT BE AFFECTED BY THE LITERACY
TEST. CHARLES AYCOCK, IN THE CLOSING WEEKS OF THE CAM-
PAIGN IN THE MAJORITY 1^/HITE COUNTIES, BEGAN TO PROMISE
THAT SCHOOLS T^'OULD BE IMPROVED UNDER HI S ADMINI STRATI ON.
HE KEPT THAT PROMISE ANP LAUNCHED A CAMPAIGN TO IMPROVE
SCHOOLS AND ALTHOUGH HE GAVT LIP SERVICE TO THE IDEA THAT
BOTH RACES WERE ENTiTLED TO AN EDUCA.TION, THE FUNDING 'I'HAT
IVENT TO SCHOOLS AFTER HE WAS ELECTED WENT ALMoST ENTIRELY
TO SCHOOLS FOR WHTTE CHILDREN AND PARTICULARLY TO THOSE
FOR I.4IDDLE AND UPPER:-CLASS 'I/HITE CHILDREN SO THAT AS A
RESULT OF THOSE REFORMS. THE INEQUALITY IN EDUCATION
INCREASED DRAMATICALLY IN NORTH CAROLINA.
BLACK FUNDING STAYED ABOUT THE SAME OR DROPPED
SOME AND I'/H I TE FUNDI NQ WENT DRAMAT I CALLY UP.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
or.\a*L
a Nofv, HAVE you HAD THE OPPORTUNTTY TO CONSIDER
THE BLACK PARTICIPATION IN POLITICS DURING THE PERIOD
BETWEEN 19]O AND 1950?
A YES.
MS. WINNER: PARDON ME, YOUR HONOR. I
MOVE INTO EVIDENCE PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBER 24.
MP.. LEONARD: I ASSUME SUBJECT TO THE OB_
JECTIOI.IS?
JUDGE PHI LLI PS : WE UNDERSTAND THE OBJECT I ON
AS ORIGINALLY STATED RELATING TO THE WHOLE LOT OF EXHIBITS
IN CONNECTION WITH THIS WITNESS 'S TESTIMONY ANU WE UNDER-
STAND IT IS A CONTINUING OB.JECTION
(pIAI NTI FF EXHI BI T 24 wAS
MAP.KED FOR }DENTIFICATION AND
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
BY MS. WINNER.:
A WHAT WAS THE LEVEL OF BLACK PARTICIPATION IN
POLITICS DURING THE TIME PER.IOD BETWEEN 1930 AND 1950?
A IN 1948, IT WAS ESTIMATED THAT ABOUT 15 pER_
CENT OF ELIGIBLE ADULT BLACKS WERE REGTSTERED TO VOTE IN
THE STATE . I N OTHER I./ORDS, THE NUMBER OF B LACKS WHo WERE
ALLOWED TO REGISTER UNDER THE LITERACY TEST AND POLL TAX
P.EQUIREMENTS GRADUALLY INCREASED FROM ZERO IN 19OO TO
ABOUT 15 PERCENT IN 1948.
A DID BLACKS_HOLD ANY PUBLIC ELECTED POSITIONSto
F ?. O. Bor 2alN
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24,3
DUR I NG THAT T I I"IE ?
A NO.
a AND \^/HAT WAS THE LEVEL OF R,ESIDENTIp.L SEGRE_
GAT I.ON AT THAT T I }4E ?
A VEP.Y HIGH.
A I,IERE THERE ANY OFFICIAL ACTS TIIAT LED To THAT
sEGREGATION?
A YES; A NUI.4BER OF CITI ES IN NORTH CAROLINA,
IN PARTI CULAR LEWI STON AI.ID CHARLOTTE AND GREENSBORO
PASSED MUNICIPAL ORDINANCES SITHER ZoTING CERTAIN SEC-
TIONS OF THE CITY AS THE I.IEGRO SECTTON OF TOI/N AND THE
WH ITE SECTION OF TOI^/N, OB THERE I^JERE LAVJS PASSED To SAY
THAT CEI?,TAIN STP.EETS WOULD BE REGARDED AS THE WHITE bN
BLACK STREETS.
AT ONE TIIlE THE LEGISLATURE PROPOSED A SPECIAL
ACT FOR THE TOI,JN OF AHOSKIE DIVIDING IT INTO A BLACK AND
A WHITE SECTION. THERE WERE ALSO, AFTER THE VA AND FHA
LOAN PROGRAMS WERE SET UP/ ACT I OIIIS BY THE FEDERAL GOVERN-
MENT THAT COOPERATED I I,I i FUNDI NG HoUSES THAT I^JERE RE-
STRICTED TO WHITE OR TO BLACK PURCHASERS, AND SO ON.
1 DID THE LEVEL OF SEGREGATION IN ANY OF THE
OTHER PARTS OF SOCIETY CH \NIGE DURII'IG THE PERIOD FROM 19]O
TO 1950?
A NO.
A WHAT I.IAS THE RACIAL CLI},'IATE IN THE STATE IN
A P. O. Bor 2tlts
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244
1950?
THE RACIAL CL IMATE I^/AS AFFECTED BY THE FACT
THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THE NUMBER OF BLACKS REGISTERED TO
VOTE HAD INCREAS.ED OVER THE LAST GENERATION. IT WAS ALSO
AFFECTED BY THE FACT THAT LARGE NUMBERS OF BLACKS HAD
I4OVED TO THE NORTH, IIAD REGAII.JED THE BALLOT THERE AND
HAD BEGUN TO VOTE FOR THE DEI-IOCRATIC PARTY UNDER THE
NEW DEAL POLICIES OF PRESIDENT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, THEN
HIS SUCCESSOR, I.1R. TRUMAN.
AS A RESULT OF POLITICAL PRESSURE I.JHICH THEY
MADE ON THE NAT I ONAL DEMOCRAT I C PARTY, THE NAT I ONAL DEI'10-
CRATIC PARTY BEGAN TO ADVOCATE BLACK INTERESTS IN A WAY
THAT NEITHER PAP.TY HAP DONE IN THE RECENT PAS.T. IN
PART I CULAR, PRES I DENT ROOSEVE LT OUTLAWED P.AC I AL D I S-
CRIMINATiON IN EMPLOYMENT II.,I DEFENSE PLANTS AND PRESIDENT
TRUMAN CONTINUED THE COMMITTEE THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO RE-
PORT ON RACIAL DISCRIIIINNTiON, THE FAIR EMPLOYMENT PRAC-
TI CES UQMI"Il SS I ON/ AND THERE 1i/ERE A S tGNI FI CANT NUMBEtI OF
COURT ACTIONS BEING BROUGHT BY BLACKS THEMSELVES, CHAL-
LENGING THE SYSTEI{ OF WHITE SUPREMACY OR RACIAL SUBORDI-
NATION IN THE SOUTH. THESE CASES WERE WINI.JING SO THAT
WHITES IN NORTH CAROLINA COULD SEE THAT THERE WERE FORCES
ON THE OUTSIDE WHO WERE CHALLENGING THE SYSTEM OF l/'lHIIE
SUPREMACY. THESE FORCES WERE GAINING POLITICAL GROUND
AND THERE I.JAS A NEED -.TO TAKE ACTION IF THE SYSTEM OF
P. O. Bor 2alGl
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SEGREGAT I ON WAS TO tsE PP.ESERVED.
THE ISSUE OF RACE BECAME MORE SALIENT DIRECTLY
iN NORTH CAP.OLINA POLITI CS BY 1950 THAN IT HAD BEEN IN
THE PRECEEDING 5O YEARS.
HOW IS THAT EFFECT BEEN SHOWN IN POLITICS?
wELL/ IN THAT YEAR--WELL., IN 1949 GOVERNQR
KERR S.COTT APPOINTED FRANKLIN GRAHAI'1 TO THE IJNITED STATES
SENATE DUE TO A VACANCY THAT UCCURRED AS A RESULT OF THE
DEATH OF AN INCUI4BENT. THE NEXT YEAR, 1950, SENATOR
GRAHAI'1 RAN FOR RE-ELECTION IN THE DEI'IOCRATiC PRIMARY.
HE U,AS CHALLENGED BY I^/I LLI S SMI TH I.ND ANOTHER
CANDIDATE IN THE FIRST PRIMARY. SENATOR GRAHAM RECEIVED
49 PERCENT 0F THE VOTE 0R CLOSE TO lT, AND MR. SMITH RE-
cETYED--CAME rN SECOND. Mp.. SMITH DID ASK FoR A RUN-oFF
AND IN THE COURSE QF THE RUNI-OFF CAMPAIGN, SENATOR GRAHAM
VJAS ACCUSED OF BE I NG SOFT ON THE P.ACE ISSUE I N A VI OLENTLY
RACIST CAMPAIGN THAT STA,RTLED OBSERVERS AS BEING THE MOST
IMPORTANT AND MOST DRAMATIC.USE OF RACE AS A POLITICAL
ISSUE IN \IORTH CAROLINA SINCE THE DISFRANCHISEMENIT CAM-
PAI GN.
DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 25?
YES.
(pIaINTIFF EXHIBIT 25 WAs
MARKED FOR IDENTI FICATION.)
WHAT IS THAT?
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?,46
A THIS IS A LEAFLET THAT WAS PRODUCED IN THE
COURSE OF THAT CAMPAIGN AND WAS DISTRIBUTED AROUND NORTH
CAROLINA AS PART OF THE CAMPAIGN TO LAtsEL SENATOR SMITH
( S I C) AS BE I NG S.OFT ON THE RACE I SSUE AND UNREL IABLE ON
RACIAL GROUNDS IN THAT ELECTION.
A AND HOW WAS IT DISTRIBUTED?
A IT WAS DISTRIBUTED IN GAS STATIONS AND STORES
AND OTHER PLACES IN THE WHITE COMI{UNITY PARTICULARLY
WHERE THE WHITES WOULD GATHER AND REAu IT.
q WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THAT ELECTION?
A SENATOR SMITH (SIC) WAS DEFEATED.
JL'DGE BRITT: SENATOR WHO?
THE WITNESS: GRAHAI'I--I'M SORRy. EXCUSE
ME--GRAHAI.4 WAS DEFEATED. WILLIS SMITH WAS ELECTED.
I4S. WINNER: I MOVE THE ADMISSION oF
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMB.ER 25.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL ADMIT IT SUBJECT TO
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 25 WAS
RE CE I VED I.N EVI DENCE. )
BY MS, WINNER:
A WHAT IVAS THE LEVEL OF BLACK VOTER PARTI CI PATION
IN POLITICS AT THAT TIME?
A 15 PERCENT OF THE BLACKS WERE REGISTFRED TO
VOTE AT THAT POINT.
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WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE TO THE PARTICIPATION
OF BLACKS AS VOTERS?
I t M SORRY--l^/OULD YOU REPEAT THAT?
WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE TO THE PAP.TICIPATION
OF ELACK PEOPLE AS VOTERS AT THAT TTME BY POLITICIANS?
YES; AS A MATTER OF FACT, BLACKS WERE ACCUSED
OF CASTING THEIR VOTES IN A BLOCK AND A CANDIDATE WHO RE-
CEIVED OR WAS THOUGHT TO RECEIVE THE BLACK BLOC VOTE WAS
THOUGHT TO BE AT A DISADVANTAGE. OPPONENTS FREQUENTLY
ACCUSED EACH OTHER OF CATERING TO THE BLACK BLOC VOTE
AS A WAY OT DEFEATING THEIR OPPONENTS,
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY E LE CT I ONS I N I{H I CH THAT
HAPPENED IN THE EARLY 195OIS?
YES; THE. CAMPAI.GN OF KERR SCOTT FOR THE SENATE
IN 1954. THE INCUMBENT I^IAS ALTON LENNON WHO HAD BEEN
APPOINTED AS A RESULT OF THE DEATH OF WILLIS SMITH AND
KERR SCOTT CHALLENGED
""-FORMER
GOVERNOR KERR SCOTT__
AND LENNONIS FORCES ACCUSED,SCOTT OF RECEIVING THE SUPPORT
QF BI-ACK VOTERS AND ATTEMPTED TO MAKE THAT ACCUSATION IN
ADS DESIGNED TO TELL WHITE PEOPLE THAT SCOTT WAS UN-
RELIABLE ON THE RACE ISSUE AND THEREFORE SHOULD BE DE-
FEATED.
WHAT IAS GOVERNOR SCOTT I S RESPONSE TO THAT?
HI S RESPONSE TO THAT I^,AS THAT HE WAS, IN FACT,
SEGREGATIONIST, THAT EVERYBODY KNEW THAT HE WAS A
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248
SEGREGATIONIST, THAT HE WAS NOT UNRELIABLE ON THIS
ISSUE AND THAT IT WAS A FALSE ISSUE.
IN YOUR OPINION, WAS THAT RESPONSE NECESSARY
IN ORDER FOR HIM TO BE ELECTED?
YES.
WHY I.S THAT ?
BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS WAS SO LOW
THAT HE HAD MORE TO LOSE BY APPEAR,ING SOFT ON THE RACE
ISSUE AMONG WHITE VOTERS THAN HE HAD TO GAIN BY APPEARING
TO BE A DEFENDER OF BLACK INTERESTS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
AND l^1H0, I N FACT, WON THAT ELECT I0N?
KERP. SCOTT DID.
A HAVE YOU ALSO HAD A CHANCE TO EXAMINE THE
P.ACE FOR THE MAYOR OF DURHAM I N 19 5 O ?
A YES.
A WAS THE RE ANY B LACK PART I C I'PAT I ON I N THAT
ELECTION?
A YES.
A WHAT DOES YOTJR EXAMINATION OF THAT ELECTION
SHOW?
A IT SHOI^/S THAT MR. EVANS WAS RUNNING FOR THE
MAYORITY OF DURHAM AND THAT HE WAS ACCUSED IN THE PRESS
OF THAT CITY OF BEING UNRELIABLE ON THE RACE ISSUE. HIS
P.ELIGION WAS BROUGHT OUT AND IT WAS SUGGESTED THAT SINCE
HE WAS.JEWISH, HE WAS_UNRELIABLE ON THIS AND THAT WHITES,o
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PARTICULARLY WHITE PROTESTANTS, OUGHT TO VOTE AGAINST
HIM.
a How DrD HE RESPOND TO THAT?
A HE RESPONDED BY ATTEMPTING TO REASSURE PEOPLE
THAT HE WAS NOT UNRELIABLE ON THE RACE ISSUE.
A DO YOU HAVE BEFQRE YOU PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER 26?
A YES.
(pIeINTIFF ExHIBIT 26 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTI FI CATION. )
A wHAT IS THAT?
A THE FIRST TI^IO PAGES ARE PARTS OF A FULL PAGE
AD FOR ALTON LENNON IN THE 1954 SENATE PRIMARY. THE
SECOND IS-_OP. A THIRD PAGE IS A NEWS STORY FROM THE
RALEIGH NE'dS ANp ,OBSE,RVER OF MAy 2gTH, 1954, IN WHICH
THE PRACTICE OF DTSTRIBUTING LEAFLETS ACCUSING SCOTT OF
BEING SOFT ON THE RACE.ISSUE AND IN PARTICULAR APPEALING
TO THE BLACK BLOC VOTE IS DESCRIBED. THAT CONTINUES
OVER TO THE FOURTH PAGE.
THE LAST PAGES ARE ADS FOR KERR SCOTT IN WHICH
HE SAYS.THAT THIS IS A FALSE ISSUE, THAT HE SUPPORTS THE
RaCIAL STATUS QUO IN NORTH CAROLINA,
'".. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OPPOSED AND AM
STILL OPPOSED TO NEGRO AND WHITE CHILDREN
GOI NG TO SCHOOL'TOGETHER. !'
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THE OTHER PAGES ARE OF THE SAME KIND.
MS. WINNER: I MOVE THE ADMISSIoN oF
PLAINTI FFI S EXHI BIT NUMBER 26.
JUDGE PHI LLIPS : I,IE WI LL ADMIT I T SUBJECT
TO THE SAME RESERVATIONS.
MAY I INQUIRE AS TO THOSE PORTIONS OF THIS
AND OTHER EXHIBITS WHICH ARE OBJECTED TO NOT ONLY ON
RELEVANCE GROUNDS BUT ON HEARSAY GROUNDS THAT YOU RELY
UPON THE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS EXCEPTION?
MS. WINNER:
BY M5 . l.rI f'INER I
UNTIL 1961, I DO,
A I,JHAT WAS THE RE SP ONSE I N NORTH CAROL I NA . TO
THE DECISION OF THE SUPREME COURT IN 1954 OF BROWN V.
FORD ?
A OPPOS ITI ON.
A HOW DID THAT OPPOSITION MANIFEST ITSELF?
A WELL, BEGINNING WITH THE GOVERNOR--GOVERNOR
UMSTEAD ISSUED A STATEMENT DEPLORING THE DECISION OF THE
COURT, IMPLYING THAT THE DECISION COULD BE OVERTURNED
EVENTUALLY AND GENERALLY INDICAI ING THAT THE DECISIoN
WAS NOT I,./E L COME I N NORTH CAROL I NA .
THIS KIND OF COMMENT WAS REPEATED BY VIRTUALLY
ALL OF THE MALJOR POLITICIANS l^/HO COMMENTED ON IT AT THE
TIME. GOVERNOR UMSTEAD WENT ON TO APPOINT A COMMISSION
TO STUDy THE pROBLEt'l IVHI CH WAS HEADED By SENAT0R THoMAS
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251
PEARSALL OF ROCKY MOUNT.
GOVERNOR UMSTEAD D I ED OVER THE SUMMER OF ' 5 r+
AND HIS PLACE WAS TAKEN BY LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR HODGES
AND HODGES COI.,ITI NUED THE PEARSALL COMMI SS I ON AND ENDORSED
I TS :WORK.
A WHAT DI D THE PEARSALL COMMI SS I ON F"ECOMMEND?
A THE FIRST ACTION WAS TO CALL A SPECIAL SESSION
OF THE LEGISLATURE IN THE SUMMER OF 1955 I.N WHICH THEY
PASSED THE PUPI L ASSIGNMENT ACT OF 1955. THI.S LAW--
PREVISUSLY, THE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY' FOR ASSIGNING
INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS TO PARTICULAR SCHOOLS WAS VESTED IN
THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION.
THE PUPIL ASSIGNMENT ACT TRANSFERRED THAT
RESPONSIBI LI TY FROM STATE AUTHORITY TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL
LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD.
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT TRANSFER?
THE PURPOSE AS REPEATED OVER AND OVER BY
STATE OFFI CIALS WAS SO THAT *NY. PARTY WHO DES I RED TO GET
A DESEGP.EGATION COURT ORDER IN NORTH CAROLINA WOULD NOT
BE ABLE TO GET A BLANKET ORDER TO COVEP. THE STATE/ BUT
WOULD HAVE TO CONDUCT A LAWSUIT AGAINST EVERY INDIVIDUAL
SCHOOL BOARD IN THE STATE.
WERE THERE ANY OTHER RECOMMTNDATIONS OF THE
PEARSALL COMMI SS I ON?
A YES; THERE_ARE A COUPLE OF CONSTITUTIONAL'o
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AI'IENDMENTS WH I CH WERE RECOMMENDED AND PASSED BY THE
VOTERS THE NEXT YEAR.
THE FIRST WAS THAT ANY PARENT WHOSE CHILD WAS
ATTENDING A SCHOOL ATTENDED BY CHILDREN OF THE OTHER RACE
COULD LEGALLY WITHDRAW THAT CHILD FROM SCHOOL AND SEND
THLM TO A NON-SECTARIAN PRIVATE SCHOOL AND THE STATE
l^/OULD PAY FOR I T.
THE SECOND ONE SAID THAT LOCALITIES WHICH
WERE FACED WITH AN EMERGENCY, PABTICULARLY IN REGARD TO
THE DESEGREGATION OF THAT AREA!S SCHOOLS COULD, IN FACT,
CLOSE THE SCHOOLS AND OPERATE THEM BY LEASING THEM TO A
PRIVATE coRPoRArIoN--:oPERATc THEM AS PRIVATE scHooLS wHIC
WOULD PRESUI.IAB.LY BE EXEMPT FROM THE LEGAL REQUI REMENT OF
SEGREGAT I ON--DESEGREGAT I ON... ..EXCUSE ME.
A WHAT I^JAS THE PURPOSE OF THE SCHOOL CLOS I NG
PROVISION
A IT WAS--TnERE WERE TWO PURPOSES WHICH WERE
ANNOUNCED AT THE TIME.
A ANNOUNCED BY WHOM?
A THE GOVERNOR QF THE STATE AND OTHER LEADERS:
SENATOR PEARSALL, COLONEL JOYNER WHO WAS VICE-cHAIRMAN oF
THE COMMISSION AND OTHER PEOPLE IN RESPONSIBI.LITY.
THE FIRST WAS CALLED A SAFETY VALVE. IT WAS
SUGGESTED THAT WHITES WERE SO NERVOUS ABOUT THE IDEA OF
ANY DESEGREGATI ON AT ALL THAT THEY MI GHT DO SOI4ETHI NG
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VERY REGRETTABLE, VIOLENT UR OTHERWISE DISRUPTIVE,
UNLESS THEY COULD BE REASSURED THAT THE SCHOOLS COULD BE
CLOSED IN CASE OF DESEGREGATION.
THE OTI-TER PUR.POSE ANNOUNCED OR TMPLI ED BY
GOVERNOR HODGES IN A SERIES OF SPEECHES ON STATEWIDE
TELEVISION AND TO BLACK AUDIENCES WAS AS A KIND OF THREAT
TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY. GOVERNOR HODGES SAID THAT THE
WHITE COMMUNITY WOULD NOT STAND FOR DESEGREGATION/ THAT
IF BLACKS PERSISTED IN DEMANDING DESEGREGATION THE
SCHOOLS WOULD BE CLOSED AND THAT BLACK CHILDR.EN WOULD
SUFFER AS A RESULT, SO IF BLACKS WANTED TO CONTINUE TO
EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN AT ALL THEY HAD BETTER STOP.ASKING
FOR DESEGREGATION.
A WHAT WAS THE LEVEL OF DESEGREGATION IN SCHOQLS
BY THE END OF THE 1950IS?
A THE FORCED DESEGREGATION OF SCHOOLS IN NORTH
CAROLINA TOOK PLACE IN 1957 WHEN A TOTAL OF 11 CHILDREN--
BLACK CHILDREN WERE ADMITTED TO FORMERLY ALL_WHITE SCHOOL
IN CHARLQTTE, WINSTON-SALEM AND GREENSBORO.
By 1960/ A SURVEY SHOWED THAT 226 BLACK CHIL-
DREN WERE ENROLLED IN FORMERLY ALL-WHITE SCHOOLS.
A hIHAT AREA WAS COVERED IN THAT SURVEY?
A THE ENTIRE STATE.
A WHAT BECAME OF THE PEARSALL PLAN?
A THE FEATURE l//HI CH ALLOWED THE STATE, OR
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REQUIRED THE STATE TO PAY TUITION BILLS FOR CHILDREN
WHOSE PARENTS OB.JECTED TO THEIR GoING To A DESEGRIGATED
SCHOOL WAS DECLARED UNCONSTI TUT I ONAL.
A WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?
A IT WAS IN THE EARLY 1960IS. AS SOON AS ANY_
BODY TRIED TO COLLECT MQNEY UNDER THE PLAN, IT WAS
CHALLENGED IN COURT.
A AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PEARSALL PL.AN AFTER
THAT ?
A h,ELL/. THE ONLY REMAINING PART oF IT wAS THE
PUPI L ASSIGNMENT ACT WHICH REMAINED IN EFFECT. THAT
MEANT THAT ANY PARENT I^/HO--ANY BLACK PARENT WHO WANTED
TO ENROLL HIS OR HER CHILD IN AN OTHERWISE ALL-WHITE
SCHOOL HAD TO PETITION FOR A TRANSFER TO THE INDIVIDUAL
SCHOOL BOARD. THE SCHOOL BOARD WAS LEGALLY ENTITLED TO
DENY. THAT REQUEST ON SU.CH GROUNDS AS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL
IMPACT ON THE CHILD, OR THE PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPACT ON THE
OTHER CHILDREN IN THE SCHQOL:
MANY OF THESE REQUEST WERE DENIED. THERE HAD
TO BE VERY LENGTHY AND EXPENSIVE PROCESS OF APPEALING
THESE IN ORDER TO GET DESEGREGATION SO THAT THERE WAS A
TOKEN DFSEGREGATION OF THE SCHOOLS AND THE VERY PURPOSE
OF THAT TOKEN DESEGREGATION, AGAiN, AS ANNOUNCED BY
PEoPLE LI KE CoLoNEL .JoYNER l^/Ho WAS tHE VI CE-CHAI RMAN oF
THE PEARSALL COMMISSIQN WAS TO GIVE THE STATE A KIND OF
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LEGAL FIG LEAF WITH THE FEDERAL COURTS TO ALLOW THE
STATE TO SHOW THAT THE SCHOOLS WERE NOW TOTALLY DESEGRE-
GATED AND THEREFORE THAT FURTHER INTERFERENCE IN NORTH
CAROLINA EDUCATiON IN PARTICULAR, REQUIREMENTS OF FURTHER
DESEGREGATIo|'l OUGHT NoT To BE MADE AND WERE, II.,l FACT,
I LLEGAL.
tr'/HAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING
THAT wAS REGISTERED TO voTE IN r960; DOAGE POPULATION
YOU KNOW THAT?
39.1 PERCENT.
A HAVE YOU EXAMINED THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR OF
NORTH CAROLINA IN 1960?
YES.
WHAT WAS THAT CONTEST?
A THE DEMOCRACTIC PRIMARY WAS BETWEEN TERRY
SANFORD AND I. BEVERLY. LAKE. BEVERLY LAKE HAD BEEN A
LAi,V PROFESSOR AT WAKE FOREsT AND THEN ASS I STANT ATTORNEY
GENERAL OF THE STATE. HE HAD COME TO POLITICAL PROMINENC
IN 1955 WHEN HE DECLARED THAT THE RESPONSE OF THE STATE
TO ANY DESEGREGATI ON OF THE SCHooLS ANYI./HERE IN THE STATE
oUGHT To BE To closE Dot/N THE ENTIRE srATE scHooL sysrEM.
HE IVAS THEREFORE SOMETHING OF A--WAS, IN FACT, A SEGRE_
GATIONIST HERO IN THE STATE.
HE CHARGED THAT_-OR HE BASED HIS CAMPAIGN FOR
GOVERNOR ON THE FACT THAT IJE WOULD DEFEND WHITE SUPREMACY
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'AAr)
AND SEGREGATION MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN HIS OPPONENT.
TERRY SANFORD'S RESPONSE WAS THAT HE, TERRY
SANFORD, WAS A SEGREGATIONIST; THAT HE DID NOT WANT TO
SEE THE INTEGRATION OF NORTH CAROLINA SOCIETY AND THAT
HIS WAY OF RESISTING INTEGRATION b/OULD BE MORE EFFECTIVL
THAN BTVERLY LAKE ' S.
WHAT WAS HIS WAY?
HE CALLED IT THE NORTH CAROLINA WAY IN CIVIL
P.IGHTS. THIS IS A PHRASE THAT HAO BEEN POPULARIZED BY
GOVERNOR HODGES AND BY THE PEARSALL COMMISSION AND ES-
SENTIALLY, IT WAS TOKENISM. THE IDEA THAT A CERTAIN
MI NIMAL CONCESSI ON TO THE LAl^/ WOULD MAKE I T POSS I BLE FoR
NORTH CAROL I NA TO CONT I NUE THE STATUS QUO I^II TH VERY
LITTLE SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE.
a IN youR opINI0N. WAS TERRy SANFORD'S RESPONSE
OF TOKENI SM TO MAI NTAI N THE STATUS QUO T.IECESSARY TO HI S
SUCCESS ?
ox
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n'{
A
YES.
ON WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT OPINION?
WEI-L/ THE NUMBER OF BLA,CK REGISTERED VOTERS
WAS r+0 PERCENT. THE PROPOP.TI ON OF BLACKS IN THE pOpU-
LAT I ON I{AS LESS THAN 3A PERCENT, SO THAT WOULD I\IEAN THAT
THE NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS IN THE ELECTOR.ATE AS A WHOLE
WAS SOMETHING AROUND 72 OR 1O PERCENT. THAT NUMBER. WAS
SO SMALL THAT THE NUMBEII OF VOTES SANFORD HAD TO GAIN
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5Y MAKING AN OVERT APPEAL TO BLACK VOTERS WAS SMALL
COI'{PARED TO I^,HAT HE HAD To GAIN BY NoT MAKING THAT KIND
OF APPEAL.
A DO YOU THINK THAT HIS RESPONSE I{AS NECESSARY
TO GET THE VOTE OF IJHITE VOTERS?
A YES.
a oN L{HAT DO YOU BASE THAT?
A ON THE GROUNDS THAT HIS OPPONENT DID, IN FACT,
RUN SUCH A STRONG CAMPAIGN, THAT THE CLIMATE OF RACIAL
TENSION THAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT UP To NoW I^/AS
STILL VERY, VERY STRONG, AND THE POLITICAL REALITY OF
THE SITUATION WAS THAT HE COULD TELL HiS AUDIENCES AND
iN THE ELTCTORATE AT LARGE THAT THIS KIND OF HOSTILITY WA
STI LL VERY PO'/,/ERFUL.
A HAVE YOU ALSO EXAI,,IINED THE ELECTIONS WHICH
TOOK PLACE IN NORTH CAROLINA IN 1964?
A YES.
A DO YOU HAVE BEFORE^ YOU PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT
NUMBER 27 ?
A YES.
(pIaINTIFF EXHIBIT 27 WAS
I.lARKED FOR IDENTI FICATION.)
A WHAT IS THAT?
A THE FIRST IS A POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENT WHICH
REPORTS A NEWS STORY IIg THE DUNN U]\ILY RE!.Q8D OF MAY 25,
-
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1960. IT IS AN AD FOR DR. LAKE AND IT GOES THROUGH
AND EXPLAINS HIS SEGREGATIONIST POSITION, HIS CHARGE
THAT THE TOKENIST APPROACH WAS AN APPEASEMENT OF THE
NAACP, AND SO ON.
THE SECOND TI,,O PAGES ARE ALSO FULL PAGE ADS
FOR BEVERLY LAKE. I WOULD CALL THE ATTENTION OF THE
COURT TO POIr.lT NUMBER THREE Otl THAT FULL PAGE AD, SCHoOL
INTEGRATION OPPOSED; POINT FOUR, THE NAACP IS OUR ENEMY;
AND SO ON.
THE NEXT ONE IS A NEWS ARTICLE FROI4 THE
AND. OBSERVER OF MAy 19, 1960 GOING OVER Dp.. LAKE'S
TI ON. THAT I S ALL.
NEWS
POSI-
A L.ET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION: IS THIS KIND OF
NEI^/S ARTI CLE THAT IS ATTACHED AS IN MAY ]9, 196U AS PART
OF THIS EXHIBIT A SOURCE ON WHICH HISTORIANS NORMALLY
RELY?
YES.
l^JHY ?
WELL, FOP. TWO REASONS: AN HISTORIAN WHO
IS LOOKING AT THE OVERALL POLITICAL CLIMATE OF THE STATE
WOULD USE THE CONTENT OF THt NE!^,SPAPERS AS A GAUGE TO
WHAT THE PUBLIC I{AS READING AND WHAT PEOPLE WERE THINKING
ABOL,T AND TALKING ABOUT; ALSO, FOR REPORTING THE ACTIONS
OF POLITICAL LEADERS I=OP A PERIOD IN WHICH PRIVATE PAPERS
ARE USUALLY CLOSED, TlE PIIESS I S THE BEST RECORD OF WHAT
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o2
24
25
PRECISTON REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
259
A CANDIDATE OR OTHER PUBLIC FIGURE IS SAYING OR DOING
AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME.
MS. WINNER:
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBER
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
RESERVAT I ONS .
I MOVE THE ADMISSIOI\I oF
27.
ADI4ITTED SUBJECT TO THE
(PIEINTIFF EXHIBIT 27 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
BY MS. WINNER:
HAVE YOU EXAMINED THE POLITICAL RACES WHICH
HAPPENED IN I964?
A YES.
a tJHo V',AS RUNN I NG FOR GOVERNOR AT
A THERE WERE THREE CANDIDATES IN
THAT TIME ?
THE DEMOCRATI C
AND BEVERLYPRIMARy: DAN MOORE, L. RICHAp.DSON pRyOR,
LAKE AGAIN.
U/AS THE}.E A RUN-OFF BETWEEN THEM?
YES; RICHARDSOI'I P-RYOR CAME IN FIRST IN THE
F I R5 T PP.I MARY, DAN MOORE CAME I N SE COI.ID AND LAKE CAME
IN THIRD. MOORE ASKED FOR A RUN-OFF AND AS I-IE ASKED
FOR A RUN-OFF, HE CHARGED HI S OPPONENT PRYOIl OF APPEALING
TO THE BLACK BLOCK VOTE AI',ID SUGGESTED THAT HE WAS BEI NG
CONTROLLED BY THE NAACP AND CORE AND OTHER GROUPS WHO
ATTEMPT TO LEAD VOTERS TO THE POLLS LIKE SHEEP TO THE
SHAMBLES. FOR THE REST OF THAT RUN-OFF CAMPAIGN, MOORE
P. O. Bor 2llB
LJ Rruoh. Nodh c.rorh. 270r r
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
260
DID WHAT HE COULD IO 3E SURE THE VOTERS KNEW THAT HE
I.JOULD ASSERT U/H I TE I NTERESTS OVER BLACK I NTERESTS I4ORE
EFFECTIVELY THAN PRYOR.
a WHAT WAS MR. pp.yoR ' S RESPoNSE TO THAT?
A MR. PRYORIS RESPONSE TO THAT WAS THAT HE WAS
OPPOSED TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL THAT WAS THEN BEFORE
CONGRESS AND THAT, IN EFFECT, HE COULD BE TRUSTED TO
MAINTAIN A SAFE LEVEL OF THE RACIAL STATUS QUO IN NORTH
(.AROLINA, IN TERMS OF YJHITE SUPREMACY.
A DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT
NUMBERS 29 AND 30?
YES.
(pInINTIFF EXHIBITS 29 AND
I{ERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICA-
TIoN.)
1^/HAT ARE THOSE?
A NUMBER 29 IS AN AD FOR DAN MOOI<E IN I,/HICH HE
SAYS THAT HE OPPOSES EVERY ASPECT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS BIL
LJEFORE CONGRESS AND HF GOES THROUGH IN DETAIL SPELLING OU
HOV/ THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL WILL THREATEN ',\,HITES IN NORTH
CAROLINA AND APPEALING FOR VOTES ON THAT BASIS.
A
PRYOR. I N
I S ACAI I'IST
AND WHAT IS EXHIsIT NUMBER 30?
EXHIBIT NUMBER 30 IS AN AD FOR RICHARDSON
THAT AD, THE NEXT TO THE LAST PAPIT IS THAT HE
THE CIVIL-TIIGHTS BILL AND FOR A CALM APPROACH
F P. O.601 28163
lJ Rrbrsh. Nodh c.,rln. 2r0rr
90
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PRECISION FEPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
26t
TO RACE RELATIONS. SO HE IS REMINDING WHITE VOTERS THAT
I4OOREIS CHARGES ARE INACCURATE AND THAT HE WILL DEFEND
THEIR INTERESTS OVER BLACKS'.
A IN YOUR OPINION., WAS THAT SEGREGATIONIST
APPEAL NECESSARY FOR MR. PRYOR?
i WELL, HE DIDNIT WIN AT ALL BUT HE CERTAINLY
COULD NOT HAVE RUN IF HE HAD NOT MADE THAT; NO.
A AND DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBE[1 3I?
A YES.
(pIaTNTIFF EXHIBIT
'I
WAS
I4ARKED FOR I DENT I F I CAT.I ON. )
A I.'HAT I S THAT ?
A THIS IS AN AD FOR SENATOR GOLDWATER WHO RAN
FOR PRESIDENT IN 196'+.
A WHAT DO THES.E THREE ADS, NUMBERS 29, 30 AND
3t, TELL yOtJ ABOUT THE p.ACIAL CLIt4ATE IN NORTH CARoLINA
IN POLITICS IN THE EARLY 1960'S?
A IT WAS EXTREMELY PLAIN WHITE PREJUDICE AGAINST
BLACKS WAS STILL VERY/ VEP.Y STRONG AND BLACK POLITICAL
POWER WAS STI LL VERY WEAK.:SO I T WAS SAFER TO INSULT
BLACKS AND APPEAL TO WHITE PREJUDICE THAN TO SUPPORT
BLACKS AND EITHER IGNORE OR DEPRECATE WHITE PREJUDICE.
i.4S. WINNER: I I'1OVE THE ADMISSION OF
pLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 2_9, 30 AND 31 .
F P. O.8or 2ll(l
lJ R.bloh. Nodh C..oIn. 27cfi
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24
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
P. O. Bor 21153
Ll Frhroh, Nodh crrolln. 27ot I
MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
262
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS: JUST TO KEEP THE OBJECTIONS
IN MIND, THE SPECI FI C OB\'ECTIONS, WE ARE NOW PAST ANY
ANCIENT DOCUMENTS TIME TO THE EXTENT THERE IS UB.JECTIONS
THAT I TAKE IT THERE ARE WITH RESPECT TO 29r 30 AND 3l--
NO HEARSAY OBJECTiON IN THE SENSE THAT THEY DO NOT SEEM
TO BE OFFERED? THE OBJECTION THERE SEEMS TO BE ONLY ONE
OF RELEVANCE AND THE PREJUDICIAL EFFECTS OUTWEIGHING THE
RELEVANCE?
MR. LEONARD: tr{ELL, YOUR HONOR, I THINK
THAT COUNSEL HAS OFFERED THEM TO PROVE THAT THESE ARE
RACIAL APPEALS THAT ARE STI LL COVERED BY I"IY HEARSAY OB-
JECTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: VERY WELL. WE WILL ADMIT
THEM SUBJECT TO THE GENERAL RESERVATIONS.
(pInINTIFF EXHIBITS 29, 30
AND 3I WERE RECEIVED IN
EVIDENCE.)
BY MS . I\,I NNER :
A DO YOU KNOW I,,HAT THE LEVEL OF BLACK ELECTED
OFFICIALS IN NORTH CAP.OLINA I^,AS IN THE LATE 1950'S AND
EARLY I96OIS?
A YES; THE FIRST BLACKS 3EGAN TO BE ELECTED TO
PUbLIC OFFICE AGAIN. THE FIP.ST ONE I HAVE SEEN IS A JUS-
TICE OF THE PEACE IN 19]6. T}1ERE i/AS A WINSTON-SALEM
CITY COUNCILMAN IN 1948i A GREENSSORO CITY COUNCILMAN,25
9z
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2b3
I BELIEVE2 IN 1950 AND A SCATTERED NUMBER OF CITY
COTINCILMEN IN SOI'1E OF THE LARGER CITIES OF THE STATE IN
THE EP,RLY 195UIS.
DID THAT TREND CONTINUE?
NO; I T DI DI.JI T. AS THE LEVE L oF BLACK DEMANDS
FOR CIVIL RICHTS ESCALATED OVER THE COURSE OF THE 19)O'S
AND EARLY 196OIS, THE INCUMBENTS I^/ERE PUT IN VcRY DIF-,
FICULT POSITIONS. THEY FELT OBLIGATED TO, OR THEY RE-
SPONDED TO THE DEMANDS OF THEIR CONSTIUENTS THAT THEY BE
ASSERTIVE IN THE DEFENSE OF BLACK RIGHTS AND YET WHITES
ON THE CITY COUNCILS ANtD iN THE CITIES EXPECTED THE IN_
CUMBENTS TO BE COMB I NAT I ON I S TS OP. TO BE I^IHAT THEY .RE-
GARDED AS MODERATE. THEREFORE, THE INCUMBTNTS WERE PUT
II.I SORT OF A DOUBLE BIND SITUATION SO THAT WHEN THE L.EVEL
OF BLACK ASSERTIVENESS AND POLITICAL PRESSUP.E P.EACHED A
CEP.TA] N POI NT, WHI TES I\,I THDREW THEI R SUPPORT FROM THESE
It.ICUI'lBENTS AND THEY EITHER LOST RE-ELECTION OP. DID NOT
SEEK RE-ELECTION OR t^,EfiE NOt REPLACED BY OTHER BLACK
CAND I DATES, OR OTHER BLACK CAND I DATES WHO RAITI WERE DE_
FEATED.
A DUP.ING THAT TIME hiERE THERE ANY BLACK ELECTED
OFFICIALS AT ANY HI GHEII. LTVEL THAN CITY COUNCILS?
A NONE.
a I^/HAT WAS THE LEVEL 0F INTEGRATION OF EMPLOYMEI.IT
AT THAT TIME IN THE L.ATE '50'S AND EARLY 1960'S?
A P. O. 8or z16
lJ R.5loh, ltoil C.6rin. 2r6il
;91
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PREC!SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
264
A ALMOST NONE. THE NORTH CAROLINA ADVISORY
COT4MISSION ON CIVI L RIGHTS DID A STUDY IN 1962 SURVEYING
EMPLOYI.IENT IN THE STATE IN THAT PERI OD AND DI SCOVERED
THAT IN A NUMBEP. OF AREAS OF STATE GOVERNMENT, BLACKS
WERE NOT HIRED AT ALL ABOVE THE LEVEL OF JANITOR OR
SIMILAR UNSKILLED PoSITIoNS. THERE I^IERE ALSO A NUMBER oF
COURT CASES INVOLVING THE MAJOR INDUSTRIES OF THE STATE
WHICH DEI'IONSTRATED THAT THE TEXTi LE INDUSTRY, FOR EXAMPLE,
HAD HIRED WHITES ONLY -EXCUSE ME.
IT WAS DEMONSTRATED THAT IN THE HISTORY OF
THE TEXTILE INDUSTRY, BLACKS WERE EIlPLOYED ALMOST EXCLU-
SIVELY IN OUTSIDE .JOBS SUCH AS UNLOADING COTTON BALES
OFF RAILROAD CARS OR JANITORIAL POSITIONS INSIDE THE
PLANT/ THAT ALI'IOST ALL TEXTI LE WORKERS AS LONG AS THERE
HAS BEEN A TEXTILE INDUSTP.Y IN NORTH CAROLINA WERE WHITE.
OF COIJRSE/ THE TEXTILE.INDUSTRY I^/AS THE BIGGEST INDUSTRY
IN TnE STATE AND STILL IS.
THE OTHER COURT CASES SHOWED A SIMILAR PATTERN
OF SEGREGATION IN EMPLOYMENT IN THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY AND
\iARIOUS OTHERS_-TRUCKING, I BELIEVE--AND A NUI,,IBER OF
OTHER OF THE LEADTITIG INDUSTRI ES oF THE STATE.
q ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PRACTICES oF THE
NORTH CAROLINA EMPLOYMENT SECURITY COMMTSSTON AT THAT
TIT4E?
A YES; THE EMPLOYMENT SECURITY COt'lMISSI0N, OF
F P. O. Bot 2ilB
lJ R.hGn. ionh ctroflil 27Gtr
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(o
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
l'll.t-
4'O?
COURSE/ REFERRED APPLICANTS FOR .JOBS TO PARTICULAR EM-
PLOYERS I^/HO SOUGHT TO FI LL OPENINGS. EMPLOYERS WHO WERE
SEEKING APPLICANTS TOL.D THE EI4PLOYMINT SECURITY COI..IMISSI
WHETHER THEY WANTED BLACK APPLICANTS OR WHITE APPLICANTS,
AI.,ID THE E14PLOYMENT SECUR I TY COI.1I4I SS I ON COI.lPLI ED WI TH THAT
I.JHEN THE EMPLOYEP. DID NOT MAKE A RACIHL DESIGNATION, IT
I.JAS THE UNIVERSAL PRACTICE OF THE EMPLOYMENT SECUIRTY C
I4ISSION TO APPLY TO LOCALLY ACCEPTED STANDARD OF WHAT WAS
A WHITE JOB AND I^IHAT I/,AS A BLACK JOB. IF THE EMPLOYER
ASKED FUR APPLICANTS FOP. WHAT WAS CONSIDERED TO BE A I^/HIT
.JOB , HE Ot,lly GOT WH I TE AppL I CANTS . I F HE ASKED FOR Ap-
PLI CANTS FOR A .JOB CONS I DERED TO BE A BLACK LJOB, HE GOT
BLACK APPLI CANTS.
A WHAT hIAS THE LEVEL OF RESI DENTIAL SEGREGATION
IN THE LATE 195OIS AND EARLY 196OIS?
UNCHANGED--THAT IS, VERY, VERY HIGH.
WAS THERE ANY OFFICIAL ACTIONS THAT PROTECTED
A
a
THAT ?
AA
a
A
E I THER VA
TI CES OF
VITIES IT.J
DI SPLACED
YIS,, THERE tr,ERE.
WHAT WERE THOSE?
DISCRIMINATION IN THE
OR FHA LOANS CONTINUED.
THE 1960'S CONCENTRATED
B LACK NE I GH BORHOODS AtrrD
WE RE RE FE RRED TO OTHEP.
FINANCING THAT INVOLVED
THE URBnN RENEWAL PRAC-
THE sLUM CLEARANCE ACTI-
THE TENANTS WHO WERE
BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS TO
P. O. Bor zEl(}
Ll R.blch. Nodh c.rolril 27ctt
;95
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIOENIX, ARIZONA
266
FIxD OTHER PLACES TO LIVE.
PUBLIC HOUSTNG WHICH WAS IITIHABTTED PRINcIPALLY
BY BLACKS WERE LOCATHD IN BLACK NEIGHEORHOODS AND POOR
PEOPLE WHO WERE ELIGTBLE FOR THIS HOUSING, IF THEY WERE
BLACK, WERE STEERED INTO THAT PUBLIC HOUSING.
q Hovt DID ZONDNG DECTSI'oNS AFFECT THAT?
A THE ZQNING LAWS IN THE WHI.TE COMMUNI.TY LOTS
HAD TO BE FAIRLY. LARGE, IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY, LOTS
C9ULD BE VERY, YERY SMALL OB THEY WERE NOT RESTRI.CTED AS
FAR AS RESIDENTIAL OR INDUS.TRIAL OR CQMI,'IERCIAL, S9 THAT
Tt{F BLAcr AREAS 0F TOi^/N HAD VERY LITTLE ZOnING PROTECTICN
A9 FAR AS THE SIZE AF LOT OR CHARACTER OF NEIGHBORHOOD
AND THE WHITE AREA5 OF TSWN WERE VERY WELL PROTECTED SO
THE BLACK NETGHBOP.,HOQDS WERE THE LEAST DESIRABLE NEIGH.
BQRHOODS TO MOVE I:NTO AND HAD THE LOWER PRICED HQUSING.
.. S.INCE. ELACKS'WERT THE PQOREST ELEMENT IN THE
FoPULATIQN, THEY.tItERE fQRcED IN EFFECT To EI'THER BUy eR
BENT HSUSI.NG IN TTIE LEAS,T.DEqIRABLE', THAT I'S, THE BLACK
NE TGHBQRHOOD ?
: NOWI ATTER 1965 WHAT BECAT'4E QT SCHQQL SEGRE.
GATI.QN AND INTEGRATION IN TTI.E STATE?
A
THERE WAS
FOR SCHOOL
DECI'SIQN,
OKAY. AS. A RESULT QF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT,
AN ENFORCEMENT PROCEDURE NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME
DI STRI CTS I\IHO CONTI NUED TQ VI0LATE THE BROWN
UNDER THE THREAT OF FEDERAL PROSECUTION, THEto
F t O, ad ilal
lJ irl.ar' raordt C.,c*t tttr
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,IAAIN OFFIG, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
P}OENIX, ARIZONA
267
UEGKEE OF SCHOOL INTEGRATTON INCREASED MODESTLY So THAT
THE STATE OFFICIALS BEGAN TO DESCRIBE THE FREEDoM UF
CHOICE PLAN aS BEING THE ONLY ACCEPTAsLE DESEGREGATION
DEVI.CE IN NORTH CAROLINA. A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF DESEGRE.
GATTON OCCURRED UNDER THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE METHQD, BUT
IN THQSE COUNTIES OF THE STATE PARENTS WHO APPLIED TO HA
THEIR CHILDREN TRANSFERRED UNDER THE EREEDOM OF CHOICE
PLAN I1AD THEIR NAMES PUBLICIZED QN THE RADIQ OR IN THE
PRESS AND THERE WERE SEVERAL EXAMPLES OF HARRASSMENT,
INTDMIDATIQN ANII THREATS DIRECTEU AqAINST THE CHILDREN
qR THE PAREI\ITS I^IHO$E NAMES WERE PUBLISHED IN THAT WAY.
a DID SCHOoL SEGREGATION AS IT,HAD EXISTED.END
SOMETIME AFTER 1965 IN NQRTH CARQLINA?
A DID SCHOOL SEGREGATIQN AS TT HAU EXISTED END?
a YESq
.,A AS I:T FIAD EXI$TED AS A RIGID EXCLUSIQN BETWEEN
tffiITES 4r.ro sr-ncrSf IT ENDED IN S'ME PLA.ES AND NOT IN
QTHERS BUT THE CQURTS' MADE A.RULE THAT THERE WAS NO PRO-
GBESS TOWARD THE ELIMTNATI9N OF THE .DUAL SY.S.TEM.'J VIR-
TUALLY ALL SCHQOLST CONTINUED TO BE IDENTIFIED A5 ALL WHITE
QR MOSTLY.ALL WHITE OR MQSTLY. ALL BLACT.
IN THE ITOIS WHAT I.TAPPENED TO SCHOOL INTEGRA-
T}CN ?
A WELL, AS A RESULT PRIMARI LY OF THE SWANN CASE
IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY^_ THOSE NoRTH CAROLINA CITIES WHICH
'O
A tO.actto
lJ iataalL,aor$ c.rolr 2tttt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,VIAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
268
CONTINUED TO HAVE RACIALLY I.DENTIFIABLE SCHOOLS WERE
REQUIRED TO ADOPT BUSI.NG OR ZONING OR PATRING OR WHATEVER
METHOD WAS NECESSARY TO ELIMINATE THE RACIAL IDENTIFI-
CATTON OF THE VARIOUS SCHOOLS. THAT WAS DONE ACCORDING
Tq COURT ORDER,
A bHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HOUSING INTEGRATI.ON BE.
TI^IEEN 19.65 AND I975?
A AGATN/ UNDER THE PRESSURE OF CIVI.L RIGHTS ACTS
THE KIND OF OFFICIAL DISCBIMINATION IN LQANS OR IN THE
DI:RECTING OF PEOPLE A$ FAR AS URBAN RENEWAL AND SQ ON
CAHE T8 AN END. },IQRE9VER, S9ME QF THE LARGE.ST APARTMENT
COI'IPLEXES AND HQUSING DEYELQPERS DID BEGIN TO ADMI.T. BLACK
TENANTS OR, BLACK PURCHASERS ON A LIMI.TED TOKENI.ST BASIS
THAT h{AS CqMPARABIE. TO SOT4E OF THE EARLTER ACTTONS ON
SjCH00LS I
A WHAT HAS BEEN THE EFFECT OF THAT ON RESIDENTIAL
I NTEGRAT I ON ?
A IT IS NOT nS TRONCLAD AS TT woULD HAVE BEEN
30- YEARS AGo, BUT THE DEGREE oF RESTDENTIAL cONcENTRATToN
OF WHI'TES AND BLACKS TS. STILL VERYT VERY STRONG S,O THAT
VIRTUALLY EVERY NEIGHBQRHOOD IN THE STATE CQNTINUES TO BE
IDENTJFIABLE AS A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD OR A WHITE NEIGHBOR-
HOOD.
A WHAT WAS THE POLITTCAL RESPONSE TO THE CIVIL
RTGHTS ACT, THE S CHOOL I NTEGP,AT I ON AND THE FAIR HOUS I NG?f
F t, O, ld l|ts
LJ i.aaall, rSrin C.rldil ,?trr
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.157r
Pt"oENtx, AR|ZCN!
269
OPPOS IT I ON.
AND HOW DID THAT EXPRESS ITSELF?
A WELL/ CANDIDATES VIED WITH ONE ANOTHER TO SAY
THAT THEY THUUGHT THAT THESE AcTS WERE UNcoNSTITUTIoNAL,
THAT THEY WOULD RESIST THE APPLICATIQN OF THESE ACTS, THAT
THEY I.'QULD TRY T8 qET COUF'.T DECTSTONS OVERTURNED OR GET
LAWS, DECLARED UNCQNSTITUTIONAL AND THAT THERE WAS NOT AN
ATTEMPT Qru THE PART OF NORTH CAROLTNA OFFICTALS To SAY,
IIWE WILL DQ WHAT WE cAN To IMPLEMENT THE FULL SPIRTT oF
THESE LAI.'S,'' OR I.'I,]E WILL PASS STATE QR MUNICIPAL LAWS TO
ir
BACK UP FEDERAL.LEGISLATION IN THI.S AREAT'' AND S.O ON, IT
!{AS. OPFOSTTION YERY CQNSISTENTLY
q AP.E YOU FAMILIAR }IITH THE CONGRESSIONAL RACE
IN 1966 BETWEEN REPRESENTATIVE JONES AND L'OHN EAST?
A YES,
THE SAME TJOHN EAST WHO IS NQW THE
CAROL I NA?
A YES.
WNAT HAPPENED DURING THAT RACE?
IA DURTNQ THAT RACE, MR.. EAST, OR DR? EASTI AC*
CUSED /QNES OT APPEALING TO THE BLACK BLOC. VOTE AND JONES
PROTESTED AGAINS'T THIS AND SAID THAT HE WAS NOT APPEALING
TO THE BLACK BLOC: VQTT AND DESCRIBED THTS AS A SMEAR TAC-
T I.C.
a nRE you Fru,rrLrAR wrTH rHE 1968 RACE BETWEEN
, q IS THAT
SENATQR FROM NQRTH
F t O. ld ttct
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. l ArN oFFtCE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
'z'7
A
BOB SCOTT AND JIM GAIIDNER?
A YES.
A WHAT WAS THAT RACE?
A THAT WAS THE GENERAL ELECTTSN FOR GOVERI.IOR
THAT YEAR.
A AND I^/HAT OCCURRED DURING THAT RACE?
A WELL, SCOTT WAS THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE AND
GARDNER WAS THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE. THERE WERE AC-
CUSATIONS ON BQTFT SIDES THAT THE oTHER CANDIDATE HAD NoT
DQNE ALL HE COULD TQ DEFEND wHI TE SUPKEMACY., oR THE
RA,CIAL STATUS QUO IN NORTH CAROLINA. THOSE CHARGES WERE
TRADED BACK AND FORTH
WHAT PQSITION DID L'IM GARDNER HOLD PRIOR TO
THAT T
HE WAS A CQNGRESSMAN.
DO YOU HAYE BEFORE Y.OU PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT
NUMBEg
'3?
A YES: q
(PLAINTIFF EXHI BI:T ]3 vlAS
MARKED FOR I.DENTTFI CATION. )
a
IME ?
A
e
a
A
AND, OF
GARDNER
AND IT
WHAT I.S
THIS IS
l
couRSE, BY
I S ACCUS.ED
rS SUGGESTED
THAT ?
AN AD THAT IS HQ$.TILE TQ JIM GARDNER
IMPLICATION FAVORABLE TO SCOTT IN WHICH
OF NOT VOTING ON A KEY VOTE IN CONGRESS
lrAT IF ltE l-rAD VoTED/ FREEDoM 0F
'o
F ?. O. lor tltcl
lJ i-tg,r iaoilr! c.rctri. mtt
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25
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. i ArN oFFrcE. RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
rlI,?
OF CHOICE INSTEAD OF FEDERAL DESEGREGATTON GUIDELINES
CQULD BE THE LAW OF THE LAND.
A AND DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER,34?
A YES.
(PLRTNTIFF'S EXHIBIT 34 I^JAS
MA.RKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A AND WHAT IS THAT?
A THAT IS AN AD FOR JIM GARDNER, CRITICAL OF
BOB SCOTT, SUGGISTING THAT BOU SCUTT HAD SOMEHOW BEEN
REMISS AND HAD ALLOWED HEW TO GET IN coNTRoL oF oUR
SCHOOLS, HEW, OF COURSE, BEING THE AGENCY OF THE FEDERAL
GQVERNMENT THAT WAS MOST DIRECTLY IN CHARGE OF DESEGRE-
GATING PUBLI.C SCHOOLS.
q rN YouR oplNIQN, WHAT WAS SCqTTTS GENEBAL
STAND ON. CIVIL BIGHTS IAWS IN THAT ELECTIQN?
A HtS STAND WAS THAT THEY WERE THE LAW OF THE
LAND AND HAD TO BE RESPECTEE, BUT HE WAS NOT ENTHUSIASTIC
ABOUT THEM.
a wAS HIS OppQSTTIgN TO THE CML RTGHTS LAW
NECESSARY IN HIS ELECTIQN CAMPAIGN?
A I THINK SO,
A I,'HY DO YQU THINK THAT?
A AGAIN, BLACK VOTES WERE STILL FAIRLY LOW AND
WHITE OPPOSITION TO BLACK INTERESTS WAS STILL VERY HIGH,
F t. O. Lr rltC!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. IALEIGH, 832.9085
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PFOENIX, ARIZOIIA
72
SO HE HAD I4ORE TO LOSE BY FAVORING BLACKS THAN OTHER-
WI SE.
MS. WINNER: I MOVE INTo EVIDENCE PLAIN-
TIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBERS. 33 AND 34.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: I./HAT ABOUT ,2?
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I AM NoT GOING
TO MOVE THAT INTO EVTDENCE. I AM MAKING A DISTINCTION
BETWEEN NEWSPAPER ARTICLES AND POLI TI.CAL ADS.
.JUUGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. WE ADMIT 35 AND
34 SUBJECT AT THTS.TII'lE TO THE GENERAL RESERVATTONS.
(pIeTNTIFF. EXHIBITS 33 AND
]4 WERE RECE}VED IN EVIDENCE.
BY MS. WINNER:
q ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE
IN NORTH CAROLINA IN 1968?
. A YES.
A WHQ WERE THE CANDIDATES IN THAT RACE?
A HUBERT HUMPHREY,'RI CHARD NIXON AND GEORGE
WALLACE
A AND WHAT WERT THEIR RESPECTIVE P9STTIQNS ON
C }YT L R I.GHTS ?
A HUBERT HUMPHREY.WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO ENDORSED
THE CIVTL RIGHTS PROGRESS. SYER THE LAST 2O YEARS UNEqUI-
VOCALLY. GEORGE WALLACE WAS UNEQUIVOCALLY OPPOSED TO
THE CIVIL RIGHTS RECORD OF THE LAST 20 YEARS. PRESIDENT--
F 2oadal.o
u i-ltJ\ fao.$ C.rcrr rzttt
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
P}{o€NIX, ARIZONA
"i3
THEN MR.--NIXON BASED HIS CAMPAIGN IN PART oN I/IHAT WAS
CALLED A SOUTi-IERN STRATEGY IN WHTCH HE CONVEYED TO
SOUTHERN WHITE VOTERS THAT HE WAS UNSYMPATHETIC TO THE
CIVIL RIGHTS RECORD OF THE LAST 20 YEARS, BUT IF HE WAS
ELECTED IT WOULD NOT CONTINUE AND MIGHT IN KEY INSTANCES
BE REVERSED.
A AND HOW DID THEY COME tN IN THAT ELECTION?
A MR. NIXON CARRIED TFIE STATE. GOERGE WALLACE
CHME IN S.ECOND. HUBERT HUMPHREY .CAME TN THIRD.
q DQ YOU HAVT BEFQNE YOU PLAINTITF'S EXHIBIT
NUJ.4BER 35?
A
q
A
YES.
AND PLATNTIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBER 36?
YES,
(FLATNTIFF EXHTBITS' 35 AND
,6 I{ERE MARKED FQR I DENT I F I-
cA]',I0N. )
AND 14na1 4gr THEY?
rHEy ARE ADS FAR 9EoRGE WALLACE IN 1958.
AND WHERE DI.D THEY APPEAR?
A WELL, NUF4BER 35 ApPEARED IN THE RALEIGH N,E,WS
A,NP. .O.BSERVEF ON OCTOBER 25'IH, 1968 AND NUMBER 36 APPEARED
IN THE CHARLOTTE l.t,El^r,S IN 0CT0BER OF THE SAtr,lE yEAR. I uON.
RECALL THE EXACT DATEr BUT I rVE GOT IT I.N My. NOTES.
q ARE YOU FAfltLIAP. WITH THE RACE FOR UNITED
A
F t,OLlto
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PI-|oENIX, ARIZONA
47
STATES SENATE FROM NORTI'I CAROLINA IN 1972" \
A YES.
A WHAT WAS THE RACIAL CLIMATE OF THE STATE AT
THAT TIME? .
A IT WAS STILL PRETTY TENSE. THE SWANN-MECKLEN-
B,URC DECISION, OF COURSE., HAD BEEN DECI'DED rN tg7L, THE
PREVIOUS Y.EAR, AND THEREFORE THE CODE WORD, ''FORCED
BUSII.IGII WAS BEING USED AS A SYMBOL TO STAND IN FOR CON_
TINUED DESEGREGATIQN OR CONTINUED INTEGRATI.ON. WHITE
POLITICIANS THROUGHOUT THE STATE TOOK A POSITION AGAINST
WHTT THEY CALLED FQRCED BUSING AND PROMI.SED VOIERs THAT
THEY: WOULD DO WHAT THEY COULD TO pUT A STOP TO IT..
q DO YOU HAYE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER 37?
A YES.
CPLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 37 WAS
MARKED r'oR IDENTIFICATION. )
WHAT IS THIS?
FIRST QF ALL, l7(A) IS AN AD By, THE UNTTED
CONCERNED CITIZENS. OF RALETqH THAT AFPEABED IN THE RALEIG
N.EWS.AND OBSERVER ON MAY 5. 1972 AND TT REPORTS THE RE-iI
'.,-'
oF *,*' TAKEN BY THE UNITED CONCERNED CITIZENS
OF RALEIGH IN WHICH THEY ASKED EVERY CANDIDATE QF EVERY
PARTY THREE QUESTIONS: ARE YOU AGAINST FORCED BUSING;
AR.E Y.OU FgR NEIGHBORHgOD SCHOOLS, ARE YOU WI'LLING TO I^IORKo
F t, o. tc atas
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.157r
PloENtx. AR|ZoNA
ar ,rt i-( to
AND/OR VOTE FOR ADMINTSTRATTVE LEGTSLATTVE^ AND CONSTI-
TUTIONAL CHANGE TO END FORCED BUSING. THOSE WHO ANSWERTD
''YEs" ARE LI.STED IN THE AD AND PRESUMABLY REUOMI.IENDED TO
THE VOTERS.
a
THE UNITED
THAT AD?
A
a
IN BQTH THE
q
BY WINN I NG
A
TO0. .'
THE SECOND ONE rS Aru AD FoR--.1Iy SoRRY.
BEFORE YOU MOVE ON, ARE BOTH CANDIDATES FOR
STATES.S'ENATE FRCM NORIH CAROLINA LI5TED IN
Yu.S,
Gq AHEAD.
WELL, 3Y BQTH, THEP.E WERE SEVERAL CANDIDATES
DEMOCRATIIC AND REPUBLI CAt't PARTIES .
I:IM SQRBY.I ttERTBOTH CANDTDATES !{HO ENTERED
Tr-tEIR ,RESF.ECTIVE pRIMART ES rN THAT LISr?
YES; AS TAB AS I KNQW, THE LOSERS ARE INCLUDED,
q G0 AHEAD.
THE SECOND ONE T$ AN AD FQP. JESSE HELMS THAT
APPEARED IN THE N.EW-S- AND OBSERVER ON 0CTOoER 8, tgl?,
I.T IS.AN AD CRITICAL OF NTCK GALIFINAIKIS, MR. HELMSI
DE}4OCRATIC OPPONENT AND ACCUSING HELMS (SIC) OF BEING
UNDECIDED ON THE BUSING ISSUE SOMETTMES BETNG FOR IT AND
SOMETIMES BETNG AGATNST IT.
THE THIRD PAGE IS AN AD FOR JESSE HELMS,
DEMOCRATS SUppqRT JES.IE HELMS FOR SENATOR, IN WHICH A
F P, O. lc tl.s
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PloENlx, ARtzoNA
276
NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS I^'HO ENDORSE HELMST DETERMINATION,
HIS RESOLUTENESS, PARTICULARLY IN REGARD TO THE FORCED
BUSING AND SO QN. HELMS HAD COME INTO POLITICAL PROMI_
NENCE IN THE STATE BY A SERIES oF EDITORIALS WHICH HE
MADE QN WRAL TELEVISION AND TN OTHER PLACES CRITICAL,
AMQNG OTHER THINGS, 0F THE CITVI L RtGnTS CHANC€S THAT
WERE I.IADE OVER THE COURSE oF IHE 1960 'S, so WHEN THE AD
TELLS PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW WHERE L'ESSE STANDS, YQU KNOW
HE HAS BEEN CONSISTENT OYER THE YEARST THAT' OF COURSE,
REFERS BACK TQ THAT RECORD 9F CRITICISM.
THIN AS I G0 ON, TnE LAST AD,IS ALSO AN AD
FOR JESSE HELMS SAYING YOU KNOW WHERE HE STnNDS AGATNST
FQRCED BUSING, A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS, AND FINALLY
AGAtNST CENTRALTZING TQ HAYE A BIGGER FEDERAL GQVERNMENT.
QT CUURSET THE ELEMENT OF A CENTRALIZED AND BIGGER FEDERA
GQYERNMENT THAT HAD BEEN MSST QBJECTIQNABLE TO MANY WHITE
NORTH CAROLINIANE QYER TLJE LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS HAD BEEN
THOSE FEDERAL ACTIVITIES THAT HAD BEEN DT.SIGNED To CHANGE
THE RACIAL STATUS QUQ.
WHO WON THAT ELECTIQN?
JESSE HEL},TS ,
A WHAT DO Y.OU CONCLUDE ABOUT RACIAL I'NVOLVEMENT
iN POLITICS DURING THIS TIME PERIOD ACCORDTNG TQ THAT
E LE'CT I ON ?
THAT RAC IAL APPEALS I^TERE ST I LL A VERY I MPORTANT
A
-
?. O. tq ltat
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-36t9 A76..571
PIloENIX, ARIZOI.JA
2,77
PART OF THE POLTTICAL CLIMATE OF THE STATEi THAT THEY
COULD BE USED AND b'ERE USED BY LEADING WHITE CANDIDATES
AND THAT THE POLITICA.L POW=R OF BLACKS WAS STILL SO WEAK
THAT THEY COULD NOT DEFEAT CANDI DATES WHO TOOK THESE
KINDS OF POSITIONS.
MS. WINNER: I MOVE INTO EVIDENUE PLAIN-
TIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBER 37.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
THq GENERAL RESERVATIONS.
THAT IS ALL OF ITS PARTS?
YES, S I R.
I,,E WILL ADMIT IT SUB.JECT TO
(pIATNTI FF ExHIBIT ,7 .wAS
RECEIVED IN EVDI'ENCE.)
MS. WINNER: I THINK I AM REMINDED THAT
I DID NQT MqVE INTQ EVIDENCE PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBITS 35 AND
36, AND I S0 MQYE.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
RESERVAT IONS,
ADMITTED UNDER THE GENERAL
cpLATNTTFF EXHIBITS 35 AND
36 WERE RECETVED IN EVIDENCE
UUDGE PHILLIPS;: N0W, EACH QF THESE/ f BELIE
I DETECT, CONTATNS' AT LEAS.T QNE OVERT REFERENCE TO AN AB-
SOLUTELY IDENTIEIABLE RACIAt. ISSUEi'TO WIT : BUSING AND
DOES NOT DEPEND IN ALL ITS PARTS UPON I.MPLI CATIONS ABOUT
CENTRALIZED FEDER,AL GOVERNMENT AND WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS
MS. WINNER'
(o
-
t O. la tat6
u udCr ,ao.rr c..oh. t ctt
;107
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, E32.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PFOENIX, ARIZONA
278
MS. WINNER: I BELIEVE THAT EACH oF
THESE EXHIBI.TS CONTAINS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO BUSING.
BY MS. WINNER:
A HAVE YOU ALSO EXAI"IINED THE CONGRESSIONAL RACE
FOR THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT THAT HAPPENED IN
197 2?
A YES.
A WHO WERE THE CANDIDATES IN THAT RACE?
A IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY THE CANDIDATES WERE
RICHARD L. FOUNTAIN AND HOWARD LEE.
A AND HAVE YOU EXMINED THE ELECTION OCCURRING
IN THAT RACE BY UOUNTY?
A Y.ES.
q WHERE DID YOU SBTAIN THOSE RETURNS?
A I OB,TAINED THEM FRQM THE DURHAM MORNIN9 HERALD
COVERAGE 9F THE ELECTIQN ATTER IT
'UO'
9VEB
q IS THAT ,q SOURCE ON WHTCH HISTORIANS NORMALLY
RE LY.?
A YEs.
A WHAT DID Y.QU C9NCLUDE FROM THAT ANALYSIS OF
,t
THAT ELECTION? BETSRC. THAT, WHAT RACE \S MR. LEE?
A HE IS BLACK.
A AND WHAT RACE IS MR. FOUNTAIN?
,A HE IS WHITE.
q AND NOW WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM YOUR ANALY.SI
-
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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,vtAtN oFFtct, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
2'7 g
OF THAT ELECTION?
A I COMPARED THE PERCENT VOTING FOR LEE WITH THE
PERCENT OF NON-WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS IN EACH OF THE
COUNTIES. THERE ARE 12 COUNTIES IN THE DISTRIcT. wITH'TH
EXCEPTIQN OF MR. LEEIS HOME COUNTY OF ORANGE COUT.ITY, THE
PROPORTION VOTING FOR LEE DID NOT DIFFER FxOM THE pRO-
PORTI:ON OF NON-WHITE REGTSTERED VOTERS BY MORE THAN NINE
PERCENT AND USUALLY IT WAS MUCH, MUCH CLQSER THAN THAT--
THREE PERCENT, FOUR PERCENT.
q WHAT WER,E THE CSUNTIES IN THAT DISTRICT AT
THAT TIME?
.A CASWELL, EDGECOI'IuE, FRANKLTN, GRANVILLEl
,t,i
HALTFAX, NASTI/ NQRTMMFTqN/ ORANGE, PERS.ON, VANCE, WARREN
AND I'lILSON.
A IN PARTICULAR, WHAT WERE THE RESULTS THAT YOU
FoUND lN WlLSoN, EDGECOMBE AND NASH COUNTTES?
A IN EDGECQMBE, THE PERCENT FOR LEE WAS 4t,2;
I'HE PERCENT OF NON-WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS WAS
'5.6.
IN NASH, THE PEP.CENT FOR LEE WAS 33.9; THE
PERCENT OF NONE.WFII TE REGI.STERED VOTERS WAS 25 . 7 ,
IN WILSoN/ THE PERCENT FoR LEE lfAS ,2.4 AND
THE PERCENT OF NON-I^IHITE REGISTERED VOTERS WAS 24.7.
A AND WHAT ABOUT IN HALIFAX AND NORTHAMPTON
COUNTIES?
A SORRY. IN-HALIFAX. THE PERCENT FOR LEE WAS
Ff P, o. lor lltCt
lJ i.Ldr Nordt C.ro*t t att
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. l ArN oFFtcE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
P}IoENIX, ARIZONA
80
37.5; THE PERCENT 0F NON-WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS WAS
29.7 .
rN NORTHAMPTON, THE PERCENT FoR LEE WAS 47.8;
THE PERCENT OF NQN.WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS WAS 48.7.
A DID YOU COMPUTE THE CORRELATION BETWEEN THE
NON-WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS. AND THE PERCENT FOR LEE IN
THOSE COUNTIES?
YES, I DID.
JUDGE PHILLIPSI IS THIS PART oF THE GENERAL
QUALIFICATION QF AN HISTORIAN?
MS. WINNER I r cAN QUALITY DR. WATSON
ON QUANTITATIVE METHODS IN HISTORY IF YOU WOULD LIKE.
BELIEVE HTS TRAINING IN THAT APPEARS ON THE RESUME. I.JE
DO NOT TNTEI.JD TO GO TNTO THI.S AT ANY'GREAT LENGTH.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE WILL ACCEPT IT.BUT
IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A VERY CONSISTENT PATTERN OF VERY
CAREFULLY PREPARED EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE SKIRTING ON ICE
THAT NEED NOT BE SKIRTED ON. WE ARE USING AN HISORIAN TO
DO THE KIND OF THING THAT DR. GROFMAN OBVIQUSLY IS QUALI-
FIED TO DO, DEALING wITH RAW DATA THAT COMES NOT FROM THE
BASE SOURCE BUT FROM THE NEWS MEDIA.
MS . t^II NNER:
BY MS. WINNERI
WE WON I T BE LONG.
A
A ARE YOU I-AMILIAR I,IITH
REGISTRATION BETWEEN.-I960 AND THE
THE PATTERNS OF VOTER
PRESENT ?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
,79.3619 876-1571
PI,|oENIX, ARIZONA
28lL
A YES.
a WHAT WAS youR souRcE oF STATISTICS FOR THAT?
A WELL, THE VOTER EDUCATIONAL PROJECT OF
ATLANTA, GEORGIA PREPARED A PUBLI CATI ON, V9-TER REGI STRA_
TI.ON IN TH.E. SPUTH, THAT LISTED THE REGISTRATION BY RACE
IN EVERY SOUTHERN STATE INCLuDING NQRTH cARoLINA IN INTER
VALS HETWEEN 1960 AND i982.
A IS THAT A TYPICAL RESQURCE UTILIZED BY HIS-
TQRIANS ?
A YESI
a t4,HY DO YqU USE SUCH SQURCES?
MR, LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE AND FOR
THE BENEFIT QF COUNSEL, THE PRE-TRTAL ORDER SHOWS THAT
THE DEFENDANTS ARE G0ING TO QBiJECT To EXHIBITS- 38, 40 AND
41, WE I,IOULD I,[KE TQ INFQRM COUNSEL. QF COUR.SE/ WE HAVE
NQ O$.JECTIQI'I TQ THQSE D9CUMENTS AND MAYBE IT WILL HELP To
SFEED UP THtS WITNESStS TESTIm0NY!
TJUDGE PHI.LL.I PS: - THANK YOU.
MS. WINNER: VERY WELL.
BY MS, WI:NNER:
q WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF YOUR STUDY WITH REGARD
TO VQTER REGISTRATION?
A WELL, THE PERCENT OF BLACK VOTERS REGISTERED
IN 1960 WAS 39.1 PERCENT. THE PERCENT OF WHITE VOTERS
wAS 92.1 PERCENT. Fot WHI'TES, THAT WAS THE HIGHEST
A t. o. ld lltait
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PrioENtx, ARtzof{A
282
PR,oPoRTIoN IN THE SOUTH. FQR BLACKS, IT I^IAS. NoT THE
HIGHEST PROPORTION IN THE SOUTH.
A LET ME INTERRUPT YOU FOR A SECOND AND ASK YOU
IF YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT NUMBERS 38
AND 40 ?
A YES, I Dor
CPLAINTIFF EXHIBITS ]8 AND
'+
WERE MARKED FOR TDENTIFICA-
TI0N.)
1
q WHAT IS PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT NUMBER 38?
NUMBER ]8 IS A COPY OF THE FIGURES FROM THE
YQTER EDUCATTON .PROJECT 'OF WHITE AND BLACK VOTER REGIS-
TRATIQN IN 11 SQUTHERN STATES BY. PERCENT OF VOTING AGE
POPU LAT I QN .
A AND WHAT IS EXHIBIT NUMBER 40?
., A EXHIBTT NUMBE.R 40 IS A GRAPH THAT SHOWS THE
PERCENTAGE UF YQTING AGE F.SPULATTON REGTSTERED TO VOTE
I'N N0BThJ CAROI.INA AND SOUTH-WIDE BETWEEN 1960 AND 1982.
A AND WHAT IS THE ITOP DASHED. LINE?
A THE TOF DASHED LINE IS TttE PRvPORTION OF WHITE
VOTERS SQUTH-WIDE REqISTERED T0 VOTE..
A AND I,IttAT IS THE T9P SQLTD LINE?
A THE PROPORTION OF NORTH CAROLINA WHITES REGIS.
TERED TQ VOTE IN THE VOTING AGE POPULATIQN.
q AND WI-IAT IS THE DOTTED LINE?
'o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MA|N OFF|CE, nAtEtGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.157l.
PI{OENIX. ARIZONA
283
A THAT IS THESOUTHWIDE PROPORTION OF BLACKS
IN THE VOTING AGE POPULATION WHO WERE REGISTERED TO VOTE
A AND WHAT IS THE BOTTOM SOLID LINE?
A THAT WAS THE PROPORTION OF BLACKS IN NORTH
CAROLINA OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATION WHO WERE REGISTERED
TQ VOTE.
A ANU WHAT DO YOU coNcLUDE FRoM THIS CHART AND
THI S GRAPH?
A WELL, LOOKING FIRST AND COMPARING NORTH CARO-
LINA BLACKS To souTH-wIDE BLACKS, NoRTH cARoLINA IS ABovE
AYERAGE IN THE SOUTH TN 1960. YET OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS
THE SOUTH-WIDE VOTER REGISTRATION TNCREASES DRAMATICALLY
AND NORTH CAROLINA REGISTRATION INCREASES MQDESTLY SO THA
BY 1970T NORTH CAROLTNA VOTER REGISTRATIoN AmoNG BLACKS
WAS LOWER THAN THAT SOUTH-WIDE,
. ovER THE NEX.T 12 YEARS NORTH CAROLTNA VOTER
RFGI.STRATION INCREASES AGAIN S-OMEWHAT MODESTLY AND THEN
FALLS AGAIN BETWEEN 1980 AND=1982.
LOOKING AT THE LINES FQR WHI.TES, NORTH CARO-
LINAIS PBQPORTTON PgP WHITES REGISTERED TO VOTE STARTS
QFF YERY, VERY I-1IGH.-T'MUCH HIGHER THAN THE SOUTH-WIDE
AYERAGE/ AND THEN YIRTUALLY MATCHES THE SOUTH-WIDE AVERAGE
TEN YEARS LATER. BOTH OF THTSE ARE $UBSTANTIALLY HIGHER
THAN TFIE PXOPORTION REGISTERED AMONG oLACKS, AND NORTH
CAROLINAIS AVERAGE AMO-I.IG WHITES CONTINUES TQ BE HIGHER
F ,. O. la ttl6
lJ i.ICr, iao.rh Cs,li. mil
l1l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICT, NALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876..571
PI,IoENIX, ARIZONA
84
THAN NORTH CAROLINAIS REGISTRATION AMONG BLACKS FOR
THE NEXT L2 YEARS.
q HAVE YOU ALSO HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY
THE EXTENT OF ELECTIoN OF BLACK PEoPLE BETWEEN I970 AND
1981?
A Y'ES, t HAVE.
MS. y{INNER: I MoVE PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT
NU}'IBERS 18 AND 40 INTO E.VIDENCE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THEY ARE ADMITTED l^IITHOUT
OB,JECTION.
(pIaINTIFF .EXHIBITS 38 AND
'{
WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
BY MS. WI.NNER
a DQ YOU yvu BEFoRE yQU EXHTBIT NUMBER 41?
A YES.
CPLATNTIFF EXHIBIT 41 WAs
f'lARKED FQB IDENTIFICATIONI )
A THTS' IS A GRAFH QF THE NUMBER OF BLACK OF.
FtCI:ALS ELECTED rN NORTH CARQLINA BETWEEN 1970 AND 19-81.
A WHAT D8 YOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT GRAPH?
A WELL, THE NUMBER OF BLACK ELECTED QFFI CIALS
IN 1970 WAS VERY, VERY.SHALL. THE FIGURES HERE SHOW THAT
IT WAS 62, I BELIEVE.
' OVER Tl'lE NEXT THREE YEARST lT MORE THAN DOUBLEu
A t o.tqatG
lJ i.Iatr tlort C$lllil t?aI
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-PREcrsroN neponrrdc-
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PFOENIX, ARIZONA
285
AND THEN BY. 1975 IT HAD QUADRUPLED TO SOMETHING OVER 2OO
SO THAT BETWEEI.{ I97O AND L975, THE NUMBER OF BLACK ELECTE
OFFICIALS IN NORIH CAROLINA INCREASED DRAMATIcALLY.
THEREAFTER, GROWTH ALMOST STOPPED EXCEPT FOR
A .JUMP BETWEEN 1.9.77 AND 1978. THE CURVE IS ALMoST FLAT
THEREAFTER.
q AND WHAT DOES I HAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE EXTENT
OF ELECTION QF BLACKS IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A IT IS STILL VERY/ VERY LQW.
a HAVE you ALSo EXAMINED THE EXTENT OF ELECTED
OFFICIALS IN NORTH CARQLI'NA IN 1982?
A Y'ES; I HAVE 1
AND WHAT WAS THE SOURCE OF THAT?
A THE SOURCE OF THAT WAS FIGURES FROM THT INSTI-
TUTE OF GOVERNMENT, NORTH CAROLINA, AND ESTI.MATES THAT
HAVE.BEEN MADE QT THE TOTAL NUMBER oF ELECTED oFFIcIALS
TN THE STATE.
AND WHAT HAYE YOU. LEARNED FRQM THAT STUDY?
A I FoUND rHAt IN 1982 THERE I{aRE 2A2 BLACK CtTy
COUNCIL MEMBERS IN NQRTH CAR9LINA. THERE I.{EP.E '+6 COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS. THERE I.{ERE FOUR BLACK SHERTFFS/ ONE BLACK
CLERK OF CQURT AND 12 BLACK LEGISLATCRS FOR A TOTAL OF 255
BLACK ELECTED OFFTCIALS.
THAT NUMBER IS UNCHANGED BETWEEN i98T AND 1982
EXCEPT FQR THE FACT TUAT THE 1981 FIGURE ALMOST CERTAINLY,I
s tO. lctto
u RJdttt. i{ordr c..ca.
'?!fl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
86
INCLUDES SOME MINOR ELECTED OFFICIALS NOT INCLUDED IN
CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, COUNTY COMMISSTONERS, SHERIFFS,
CLERKS OR LEGISLATORs,
A AND YOU ALSO DID NOT CONSIDER SCHOOL BOARDS
IN 1982?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
q 9F THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERST r,,lHAt PROPORTTON
OF THE TQTAL NUMBER OF CITY CQUNCTL MEI,'IBERs IS 202?
A I WAS NOT ABLE T8 T.TND THE TQIAu NUMBER QF
CITY\ CQUNCIL MEMBERS IN THE STATE, BUT THE T0TAL NUMBER
OF .CTTY COUNCI L MEMBERS tN CTTIES UNDER, .5OO POPULATIQN/
IF Y.OU SUBTRACT QUT THE NUMBER QF,BL.qCKS WHO ITERT. IN THE
YI LLAGES QT SMALLER THAN 5OO PESPLE, WE FIND THAT QNLY
NI.NE PERCENT OF THE CI.TY COUNUIL MEMBERS TN THE STATC
WERE BLACK.
..A AND WHAT FRqPABTIQN QF THE TQTAL NUMBER OF
CQUNTY COMMISSIONERS WtsRE BLACK?
A AND WHAT PROPQRTIQN QF THE TQTAL NUMBEP. OF
STHERtFFS t{AS BLACK?
A FOUR OUT 0F lO.O.-.-FQUR PEBCENTI
q AND WTIAT PBOPCRTIQN QF THE TQTAL NUMBER OF
CLERKS OF COURT WAS. BLACK?
ONE PERCENT.
AND WIIAT PRQPORTION OF THE LEG}SLATURE WAS
A
a
F t Oaqats
U R.|.eil r5ili C.roh. tl,.tt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-.571
PI{OENlX, ARIZOtIA
7
()o2
B LACK ?
A 12 BLACK LEGISLATORS OUT OF 170, I BELIEVE,
IS I5 PERCENT.
q I. TAKE IT YOU DID NOT CALCULATE THAT?
A I DI D NQT CALCULATE I T; NO.
LIUDGE DUPREE: TAKE A RECESS. UNTIL 2:OO
o I clocK,
(THE PRQCEEDI:NG t',AS RECESSED AT 1: OO P.M,, TO
BECQNVENE AT 2:OO. P.'M., THIS $.AME DAY'I)
F P. O. la 2.rcl
u i-hrr No,rh c.ro{.t ,?ctt
;117
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,rb
PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
8o(,
FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 2:00 P.M.
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
STTLL WITH YOU?
I BELIEVE THE W.ITNESS IS
MS, WINNER:
(WHEREUPON,
YES/ SIR.
HAFRY WATSON
THE W.I.TNESS. 9N THE STAND AT THE TIME QF BECESS/ RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTTFIED FURTHER AS FQLLO}fST)
DIRECT ExAMINATIoN
(Resuueo)
BY MS. WINNER:
A DR. WATSON, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH HISTORY OF
THE ROLE OF COUNTIES IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES,
. A AND WHAT SOU.RCES HAVE1YOU CONSULTED WITH REGAR
TO THE HISTORY OF THE ROLE OF COUNTIES IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A THE GENERAL HIST0RYS OF THE STATE: GLoFFER AND
NEWSOMETS NOSTH CARO,LINA. HISTORY OF A SOUTHERN STATE,
P,AUL RAGER,. 9,o,U.NfI: 9"0.VE,RNM,ENT, rN NoRTH,CAROLTNA. THERE'S
AN ARTICLE BY NORTH. CAROLINA LAW REVTEW OF 1967 ON THE
ROLE OF COUNTIES TN N9RTH CAROI.INA GOVERNMENT BY JOSEPH
BELL OF THE INSTTTUTE OF GOVERNMENT. THOSE ARE THE BASIC
SOURCES.
WHAT ITAS THE ORIGINAL REASON FOR USING CQUNTIESto
F ,.o.hratal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I8
AS TTIE BASI.S FOR APPORTIONING THE LEGISLATURE?
THE COLONTAL. LEGISLATURE WAS APPORTIONED BY
COUNTIES CONFORMING TO ENGLISH PRECEDENT. THE HOUSE OF
COMMONS WAS APPORTIONED BY TWO MEMBERS 9F PARLIAMENT FOR
EACH COUNTY AND ADDITIONAL MEMBERS. ,FOR VAR,IIOUS QOWNS OR
BOROUGHS IN ENGLAND. TI{AT SAME SYSIEM WAS ADOPTED BY
THE COLQNI.AL AUTHORITI.ES.
THAT WAS CONTINUED AFTER INDEPENDENCE IN THE
STATE CONS.TITUTION OF 1776 WITH EACH COUNTY ENTITLED TO
SIMI.LAR REPRESENTATI.VES AND EACH 9F SIX--LATER SEVEN-.
BQROUGHS WERE ENTITLED TO ONE REPRESENTATIVE ALsO.
WHAT I'S A BOROUGH?
A BOROUGH WAS A TOWN. THE BOROUGHS WERE
WILMTNGTON, HILLSBQ(OUGH, SALISBURY.
A THEY WERE THE LARGEST TOWNS AT THE TIME?
YES.
AND THEY !{EBE. ALSQ WI:THI.N A coUNTY?
:lA YESI THEY WERET . THEY. WERE' ENTTTLED TO 9NE
ttsgyf'lQNERrr.AS WA$ CALLED A
'.1EMBER
OF TFIE HOUSE OF COMMONS:.
OR THE LOWER HOUSE OF T.HE LEGISLATURE. EACH CUUN.TY WAS
ENTI.TLED TO T!+O REPRESENTATIVES-:EAEH COUNTY: QUTSI DE THE
BOROUGLiI-AND THEN EACH COUNTY WAS ENTITLED TO ONE SENATOR.
WERE THERE ANY OTHER PQLITTCAL SUBDIVI5IONS AT
THAT TIMT THAT COVERED THE WHOLE STATE?
NO,
,A
a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
290
A WHEN WERE TOI{NSHIPS CREATED IN NoRTH CAP.o-
LINA?
1868
},IHAT tl'{AS THE PURPOSE OF CREATION OF ToWITSHIPS?
A THE TOTTNSHIPS \,/EnE CREATED By, THE 9AME RE-
FORI,IERS }JHO REWxOTE THE ENTI RE CONSTI.TUTIONAL BAS I S oF
GOVERNMENT FQLLOWING THE CIYI L lrJAR, THEY WERE CQNVINCED
THAT QNE OF THE CONSEQUT..NCES OF SLAVERY WAS A DIMINUTION
OF THE qUALITY QF DEMOCRACY IN THE SSUTHERN STATES, AND
NQRThI CAROLINA IN PABTICULAR/ THAT SLAVERY HAD CREATED
A S.LAVE-HOLDING OLIGARCHY THAT WAS ABLE AS A MINORTTY To
RULE BOTH WHITES AND BLACKS UNDEMOCRACTICALLY AND TO IN-
CREASE THE DEI1QCRATIC ROLE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT--TnT
DEMOCRACTIC CHARACTER OF LQCAL GOVERNMENT, EXCUSE ME--
THEY DIYIDED THE STATE INTO TOWNSHIPS AND PROVTDED FOR
THE .ELECTION OF LOCAL .qFFICIALS hJITHIN THE TOWNSHIPS:
dUSTTCES OF THE PEACE AND CONSTABLES AND $O FQRTH, SO
THAT EACH COMMUNITY WQULD BE ABLE TQ ELECT ITS OWN LQCAL
OFF II CERS .
WHAT WERE THE RACIAL IMPLICATIONS OF THAT'i
RACIAL I.MPLI.CATIO[.,IS WERE THAT STNCE BLAcKs WERE
SIYEN THE VOTE AT THE SAME TIME/ BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS COUL
ELECT TI{ETR OWN LOCAL ADMINISTRATIONS UNDERNEATH THE
COUNTY GOVERNI4ENT SO THAT A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD COULD ELECT
ITS OWN LAI^/ ENFQRCEMENT OFFI CIALS, FOR EXAMPLE.
A
-
i. O. tor tatCs
lJ ,tlaaol! xo.h CrDlril 2r!rr
;120
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
P}OENIX, ARIZONA
29L
a
A
POLITICAL
WHEN THE
a
A
WHAT BECAME OF TOI^'NSHTPS?
WE LL, TOWNSH TPS ARE ST I LL T,'I.TH US BUT THE
FUNCTION 0F THEM i^lAS ALMOST COMPLETELY GUTTED
WHITE SUPREMACY nDVOCATES CAME BACK TNTo POWER.
HOW WERE COUNTIES GOVERNED IN THE 19TH CENTURY
THE COUNTY I.JAS GQYERNED BY AN I.NSTITUIION
CALLED THE COURT OF PLEAS AND COURT OF SESSIONS. IT WAS
COMPOSED OF ALL THE JUSTICES OF THE PEACE TN THE COUNTY,
THEY.MET TOGETHER IN A BODY FOR TI"IPORTANT AFFAIRS FQUR
,r
TIMES. A Y.EAR, BUT A SUBCOI1MITTEE OR A QUORUM OF THE JUS-
TICES COULD BE AS LOW AS THR,EE QR FIVE OF THE SEVERAL
DQzEN !,uSTI'CES 0F THE PEACE.. THEY' coULD Do BUSINESs FoR
THE RES.T.
HQW WEBE THEY SELECTED?
P. THEY WF.RE SELECTED-.THEY WERE APPOI.NTED BY THE
GQVEBNOR !..TTH THE qECOMMENDATION OF THE LEGISLATIVE DELE-
GAT1.91T1 FOR THAT CQUNTY
.DURI.:NG
GOQD BEHAYIoR --THAT IS, FOR
LIFE UNLES.S THEY COMM\TTED SOME AGREGIQUS QFFENSE.
I^'AS THAT SUBEEQUENTLY CHANGED?
A yES, tN 1868 THAT SYSTEM WAS ABOLI.SHED. THE
COUNTY COURT HAO LEGI.SLATIVEI ADMTNISTRATIVE AND JUDI CIAL
RESPONSIBI]LITI.ES.- THEY WERE ALL_POWERFUL IN THE COUNTY
A5 FAR AS THE LOCAL GOYERNMENT I',AS CQNCERNED. THEY SET
THE TAX RATE, DETERMINED LOCAL POLICE REGULATIONS, AND
SO ON TO TRYING CRIMINAL OFFEI.ISES, SINCE THEY WERE
q
a LO.tqLl6
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
292
APPOINTED, OF COURSE, THE CITIZENS OF THE STATE HAD NO
RoLE IN THEIR sELEcrIoN, THE REFORMERS oF Ig68 TnREW
THAT WHOLE BUSINESS OUT AND SET UP AN ELECTED BOARD OF
COUNTY CO}4MISSIONERS TO GOVERN THE COUNTY.
HOW LONG DID THAT LAST?
THAT LASTED UNTIL I875 WHEN THE WHITE SUPREMAC
ADVOCATE:S IN THE DEMQCRATIC PARTY AGAIN REGATNED POWER,
CALLED A CQNSTITUTIONAL CQNVENTTON AND MADE THE COUNTY
GQVERNMENT UNDEMQCRACTT'C AGAI.N, . THE COUNTY CQMMISSIONS
WERE MADE ELECTTVE NOT BY' THE---.EXCUSE ME.. LET ME START
oYent
THE L,UST.I:CES OF TnE PEACE UNDER THE I868 coN-
STITUTI.ON WERE ELECTED BY YOTERS tN TOWN9H.I.PS. THAT WAS
CHANGE-D TO I'IAKE TH.E JPIS APPSINTED.
BY t^tFtol.t?
. A THE LEGISLATUREg-]T1,9, BY THE GqYERNQR, UPQN
RECQMT,IENDATIQN BT THE LFqI$LATURE.. THEY HAD THE POWER
AF ELECTING A BQARD QF CQUNTY'CAMMISSIONERS-.THE JUSTTCES
OF THE PEACE--SQ I T WAS SQRT OF A TWO-STAGE PROCES5 FOR
THE CoUNTY *
AND WHAT BECAME OF THAT SYSTEM?
THAT LASTED UNTIL THE 1890'S AND WAS A SOURCE
OF GREAT COMPLAINT BECAUSE MANY OF THE MAiJORITY WHITE
COUNTIES HAD ENJOYED VERY MUCH THEIR BRIEF EXPERIENCE
I,TITH DEMOCRACTI.C GOVEJNMENT AND RESENTED HAVING TO GIVE
A
F t. O. lc Lt6
LJ tuIC!. No.dr Crog.!. ,Itr
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PRECISION HEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876-1571
PI|oENIX, ARIZONA
2s3
IT UP IN ORDER, IT WAS SAID, TO REDEEM THE MAJORITY
BLACK COUNTI.ES OF NORTH CAROLINA FROM NEGRO RULE SO THAT
IN THE MOUNTAINS, FOR EXAI4PLE, NON-WHITES RESENTED HAVING
TO GIVE UP THEIR DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT IN ORDER
TO PRQTECT WHITE SUPREMACY IN THE MAJORITY. BLACK REGIONS
OF THE EAST.
SO REALLY THE OBJECTIVES OF THE FUSIONISTS WAS
TO RESTORE DEMOCRAIIC GOVERNMENT ACRQSS THE STATE, AND
THEY. DID THAT IN THE 1890IS WITH MOOIFI,CATtqNS TO PREVENT
COMPLE'TE BLACK DQMINATION OF MAJORITY HLACK COUNTIES SO
THAT IN A MA.JORITY BLACK CQUNTY IF A CEiRTAIN NUMBER QF
C I T I ZEI.IS COMPLAI NED ABOUT THE coMPoS I T I oN QF THE coUNTY
COMI.IISS ION, THE JUDGES OF THE REGIoN wQULD GIVE THEM THE
PQWEF TO APPQINT A CERTAT:N NUMBER OF QTHER COMMISSIoNERS,
IN EFFECT GIVING THEM THE POWER TO APPAINT WHITES TO
BALANCE THE BLACK flAJQfl,I TY,, THAT LASTED oNLy uNTI L 1898 .
a WHAT HAPPENED IN '1898 ? l
A IN 1898 THE DEMOCRATS. CAME BACK INTO POWER AND
APPOINTED COUNTY COMMISSION SYsTEM oN ALL THE CoUNTIES oF
THE STATE.
a tdnAT WAS THE RACIAL cOMpOStTION--WHO AppOINTED
THE COUNTY COMMI.SSIQNERS AT THAT TIME?
A THAT WOULD BE THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGTSLATURE
P.CT I NG TOGETHER .
AND WHAT I.JAS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE'o
F P. O. aq 2atas
Ll ir|.!n rao.rr C.6aad 2?!rr
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
P}|oENIX, ARIZoi.IA
2,9&
LEGISLATURE TN 1898?
VTRTUALLY ALL WHITE. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE
BLACK MEMBER OR TWO WHO SURVIVED ALSO.
HOI^{ LQNE DID THAT APPOINTIYE SYSTEM LAST?
UNTIL SHORTLY AFTER DTSFRANCHISEMENT.
q AND I^JHAT HAPPENED THEN?
A WELL, WHEN BLACKS WERE ENTIRELY DISFRANCHISED
IT BECAME SAFE FROM A I^IHIIE SUPREMACY PQ(NT OF VI.EW TO
RETURN T0 DEMOCRACy AMoNG t{HITES gNLy/ AND LoCAL DEMQ-
cBAcT BEI;NG VERY. PoPULAx A}4uue wHITE$, THE LEGISLATQRS
RETURNED TO AN EILECTIVE CQUNTY SY'STEM AFTER BLACKS WERE
DI'SFRANCHI'SED.
a WHAT HAVE yOU CON.CLUDED ABOUT THE ROLE OF RACE
IN THE PUBLIC POLICY FROM THE ROLE OF COUNTIES IN THE
LEGISLATURE IN THI S TIME PERI.OD?
.A EXTREME IMPORTANCE. THE LEGISLATURE HAS tsEEN
WTLLING TO UNDERTAKE DRASTIC
MENT BACK AND FQRTH IN SRDER
wITH,IN THE CoUNTIESl
ARE THE REASONS FOR
LEGISLATURE THAT EX-
A NO, I Og1.{I1 BELIEVE SO'. THE COUNTIES AS THEY
EXISTED IN 1776 AND FOR YEARS THEREAFTER WERE SOCIAL,
cut-TURAL, ECQNol.l(C, CoMMUNITI E5 . THE STATE tS
REYERSALS QF COUNTY GOVERN-
Tq PRESERVE WH}TE SUPREMACY
q AND WHAT IN Y.9UR OPINIQN
U$lNc CoUNTIES AS TblE BASI:S FoR THE
ISTED IN 17T6 sTILL PRESENT TQDAY?
F t O. !a Ltaa
lJ itad\ !5.n! c..ori. r,!tr
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 A76-4571
P}loENIX, ARIZONA
295
OVERI^IHELMINGLY RURAL AND THE C0UNTY SEATS WERE THE
FocUS oF ALL ECoNoMIc, CULTURAL ACTIVITY wITHIN THE
COUNTY. THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE WENT TO BUY AND SELL VIR_
TUALLY EVERYTHING. THIS IS WHERE VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS
MET, UOUNTY COURT DAYS WERE THE GATHERING TIMES FOR
SQCI ALIZING AND FQR REVIVALS AND FQR--YOU NAME IT DURING
THE PRE-INDUSTRTA.L PERI0D oF THE srATEts HIsTgRy.
ALSO DURI.NG TnAT TIME oR AT LEAST FoR A SIG-
NI..FI CANT PART OF IT , LEGI SLATQRS RECOGNIZED THE IMPORTANT
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN URBAN LIFE AND RURAL COUNTY LIFE BY
DESI.GNATINg THE LARGES.T TOI,INS IN THE STATE AS HAVING
SEPARATE INTERESTS AND DESERVING A BOROUGH REPRESENTATIVE.
AS THE sTATE HAS INDUSTRIALIZED AND AS THE
AUTQMOBILE HAS COME I:N WITH FASTER TRANSPORTATION AND
CQMMUNICATION HAS DEVELOPED, THAT TY.PE COUNTY COMMUNITY
HAS BEEN FRAqMENTED SQ THAT PEOPLE VERY CQMMONLY..FI RST
OT ALL/ THE T4A.JORITY O; PE.QPLE WHO WORKIIN NORTH CAROI.INA
I,IQRK IN NON..FARM JOBS AND HANY OF THEM TRAYEL ACROSS
CQUNTY LINES TO GET TO
-THEIR
WQRKI THEY GQ TN A DI:FFERENT
DIRECTIQN TO DO THEIR SHOPPING. TH,EY MA.Y GO IN A THIRD
DIRE.CTIQN TO SCHOOL AB TQ.CHURCFI OR FOR ENTERTAINMENT,
SO THESE COMMUNIT.IES AP.E NOT BOUND BY CQUNTY LTNES AND
TI-{E EXISTENCE OF THE COUNTY AS A SOLTD CQmMUNITY UNIT IS
NO LCNGER TRUE.
NOI^J, ARE yOU FAMI L IAR WI TH THE CI RCUMSTANCES
F ,, O. 8or Llt!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING,INC. A ArN OFF|CE. RAtEtcH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PIroENIX, ARIZONA
296
OF THE CHANGE IN
DEIJ]II V. SEWE LL ?
THE METHOD OF APPOR]'IONMENT AFTER
YES.
COULU YOU JUST BRIEFLY STATE THE CHRONOLOGY
TIME OF THE DECISION IN DRUM
THE ADOPTION OF THE CONSTITU-
OF WHAT HAPPENED FROM THE
V. SEWELL TO THE TIME OF
TIONAL AMENDMENT IN 1968?
A YES. DRUM V. SEWELL HAPPENED IN THE LATTER
PART OF 1965 AND IN RESPONSE A SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE
LEGISLATURE WAS ESTABLISHED AND MET IN DECEMBER OF 1965.
TH4T COMMITTEE WAS COMPOSED OF A SMALL NUMBER OF EX-
TREMELY INFLUENTIAL LEGISLATORS, ALL OF WI-{OM WERE WtIITE.
IN FACT, THE I^JHOLE LEGISLATURE wAs WHITE AT THAT TIME.
THEY l*4ET UNDER EXTRAORDINARY CONDITIONS OF
SECRECY. THEY SAID THAT THEY HAD TO DISCUSS INDIVIDUALS
AND DECIDE WHETHER TO R.EAPPORTIQN OR HOW TO REAPPORTTON
THE STATE AND THEY DID NOT WANT THEIR COMMENTS PUBLICIZED.
MR. LEONARD: -EXCUSE MET DOCTQR. IF THE
COURT PLEASE, I THINK THI.S TESTIMONY' IS WITHOUT FOUNDATION
I AM GOING TO QBJECT TO IT UNLESS COUNSEL LAYS A FOUNDA-
TION FQR THE CONCLUSION SUCH AS THESE WERE TNFLUENTIAL
LEGISLATORS, THE COMMITTEE MET IN SECRET. I WOULD LIKE
THE WITNESS TO IDENTIFY IF HE CAN WHAT HIS SOURCE IS FOR
THAT KIND OF TESTIMONY AND AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I WOULD
I'IOVE TO STRIKE THAT TLSTIMONY UNTIL THERE IS A FOUNDATION
A
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a DR. WATSON, WHAT SOURCES DID you LOOK AT IN
STUDYING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE 1965 TO ,68 REAPPORTION
MENT EFFORT?
A THE PRESS OF THE STATE, THE RALEIGH NE*S AND
OBSERVER, THE WINSTON.SALEM J.URNAL, THE .HARL.TTE
OBSERVER AND THE MAJOR PAPERS OF THE STATE PLUS A SERIES
OF DOCUMENTS PREPARED BY THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT AND
FILED AS PART OF THE--THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT PARTI-
CIPATED IN THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS, GIVING ADVICE,TO
THE LEGISLATURE AND THE DOCUMENTS THAT THEY,PREPARED ARE
FILED IN THE NORTH CAROLINA COLLECTION AT THE UNC LIBRARY.
A DID YOU EXAMINE ALL OF THE AVAILABLE SOURCES
PRESENT IN THE NORTH CAROLINA COLLECTION AS CONCERNS
THI S TOPI C?
A YES, I DID.
q DID YOU CONSULT ANYTHING ELSE?
A SOME OF THE--MR. JOHN SANDERS WAS MOST ACTIVE
IN WORKING WITH THE INSTITUTE OF GOVERNMENT AT THAT TIME.
HE PUBLISHED ARTICLES ABOUT WHAT HE HAD BEEN DOING IN
SCHOLARLY JOURNALS, OR TJOURNALS HAVING TO DO WITH THE
SPECIALTY OF LOCAL GOVERNT{ENT AND I CONSULTED SOME OF
THOSE, T0o. I CONSULTED ALL OF THEM.
PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIEING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FOR IT.
MS. WINNER:
BY MS. WINNER:
I WILL BE HAPPY TO DO THAT.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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BI
A ALL RIGHT. JUST BRIEFLY, WHAT WAS THE SE-
QUENCE OF EVENTS THAT HAPPENED BETWEEN 1965 AND 1958?
THERE WAS DRUM V. SEWELL, THEN THERE WAS A
MEETING IN DECEMBER OF THIS COMMITTEE OF LEGISLATORS.
INCLUDED WERE SUCH PEOPLE AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR BOB
SCOTT AND THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE,.MR. PAT TAYLOR, MR.
THOMAS WHITE WHO WAS DESCRIBED IN THE PRESS AS THE MOST
POWERFUL LEGISLATOR IN EITHER HOUSE AND OTHER INDIVIDUALS
OF SIMILAR STANDING.
DID THAT COMMITTEE MAKE A REPORT?
YES; IT REPORTED TO THE LEGISLATURE AS A wHoLE
WHICH MEANT THAT T'ANUARY.
A DID THE LEGISLATURE ADOPT
AMENDMEI.IT ?
THE CONSTITUTIONAL
A THEY ADOPTED A TEMPORARY PLAN AND THEN THE
NEXT,YEAR THEY ADOPTED A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT WHICH
WOULD WRITE THAT PLAN INTO THE CONSTITUTION IN 1967.
THEN TN '68 THAT WAS SUBMITTED TO THE VOTERS. THE VOTERS
WERE GIVEN AN QPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR THE PRESENT SYSTEM
OR AGAINST THE PRESENT SYSTEM, THAT IS ALL THE BALLOT
SAID AND THERE IS NOTHING ON THE BALLOT THAT WOULD REALLY
TELL THE VOTERS WHAT THE PRESENT SYSTEM WAS.
a Now, GoING BACK T0 1965, CAN yOU DESCRTBE HOW
THAT COMMITTEE MET AND WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT
COMM I TTEE I S MEET I NG I^IEJE ?
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299
A THAT COMMITTEE MET IN GREAT SECRECY. THE
REASON THAT LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR SCOTT AND OTHER MEMBERS
OF THE COMMITTEE GAVE TO THE PRESS WAS THAT THEY HAD TO
DISCUSS INDIVIDUALS IN THEIR DELIBERATIONS AND THEY DID
NOT WANT THAT TO GET OUT INTO THE PRESS, BUT, OF COURSE,
UNDER THE CONDITIONS OF SECRECY IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR THEM
TO DISCUSS AND ATTEMPT TO DISCRIMINATE WITHOUT THAT EVER
COMING OUT.
MR. LEONARD: I F YOUR HoI.JoR PLEASE, THAT
IS AN INCOMPREHENSIBLE CONCLUSION. THE WITNESS WAS NOT
TH.ERE. HE DOESN I T KNO|,J.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WON'T CONSIDER THAT. IT
IS A LITTLE AWKWARD TO ASK A PERSON TO DESCRIBE AN EVENT
WHICH HE CAN DESCRIBE AS ONE THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED IN
SECRECY AND TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.
BY MS. WINNER:
A YOU NEED NOT TRY TO SAY I.IHAT HAPPENED DURING
THE---
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPoSING)
THE SAME. ALL WE NEED IS WHEN THE COMMITTEE
IT REPORTED AND WHAT THE LEGISLATURE DID.
BY MS. WINNER:
A WERE THERE ANY STATEMENTS MADE TO
AN\' OF THE MEMBERS OF THAT COI,IMITTEE?
A YES.
THANK YOU .JUST
MET AND WHAT
THE PRESS BY
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
Pl.toENtx, ARtzoNA
300
A
'/HAT
WERE THOSE STATEMENTS BY THE MEMBERS
OF THE COMMITTEE?
MR. LEONARD: (INTEP.POSING) IF THE COURT
PLEASE, UNLESS THIS IS GOING TO INCLUDE ALL THE STATEMENT
THAT WERE MADE BY THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE, ET CETERA
TO THE PRESS, I AM GOING TO OBJECT TO IT.
MS. },INNER: HE MAY .R.SS-E*AMINE oN ANY
STATEMENTS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WILL ADMIT ANY STATEMENT
THAT THE WITNESS CAN TESTIFY WAS MADE AND IF THERE ARE
OTHERS, THEY CAN BE EXPLORED.
BY MS. WINNER:
A WNAT WERE THE STATEMENTS THAT WERE MADE To THE
PRESS BY THE MEMBERS OF THE CQMMITTEE?
A SENATOR WHITE, FOR EXAMPLE, SAI.D THAT THE
PRESENT SYSTEM OF APPORTIONMENT OF THE LEGISLATURE SUITED
HII'1 JUST FINE. GOVTRNOR MSORE *1IOT OF COURSE/ WAS NUT ON
THE COMMITTEE BUT HE ENDQRSED I.TS REPORT AND MADE A
SPECIAL ADDRESS TO THE LEGI.SLATURE END0RSING IT, SAYING
THAT NCRTH CARQLINA WOULD BE MUCH BETTER OFF WTTH THE
SYSTEM THAT PREVAILED BEFORE W. AS FAR AS
I WAS ABLE TO DETECT, EVERY COMMITTEE MEMBER l\/HO MADE A
STATEMENT TO THE PRESS SATD TNAT THEY PREFERRED THE SYS-
TEM BEFORE DRUM ,V...S.E.W-E,LL T8 THE ONE THAT THEY I./ERE MAKING
BUT THAT THEY WERE FORCED TO I'1AKE A CHANGE BECAUSE OF THE
F.t P. O. la atas
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3u1
COURTIS DECISION.
A WERE THERE ANY
THAT COMMITTEEI S REPORT?
a
HEARING IN
PUBLI C HEARINGS HELD CONCERNING
YES.
WAS THE ISSUE OF RACE RAISED AT THAT PUBLIC
ANY WAY?
YES.
HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
WELL, MR. LIOHN SANDERS AT THE INSTITUTE OF
GOVERNMENT HAD PREPARED A REPORT FOR THE USE OF THE COM.
MI.TTEE AND HE TESTI FIED ABOUT THAT REPORT ON DECEMBER B,
1965. HE SAID AT THAT TIME THAT IF THE LEGISLATURE.RE-
FUSED TO REAPPORTIoN ITSELF THc CoURTS WoULD REAPPoRTIoN
THE LEGTSLATURE I.NSTEAD, THAT THE COURTS WOULD BE LIT.ELY
TO IMFOSE SINGLE MEMBEP. DISTRICTS,; THAT IF THE LEGISLATUR
ADOPT.ED MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT THAT WOULD BE SUBJECT
TO A LIKELY OR POSSIBLE COURT CHALLENGE ON THE GR.OUNDS
THAT IT DISCRIMINATED AGAINST RACIAL POLITICAL MINORITIES.
NEVERTHELESS, THE COMMITTEE FIRST AND THEN THE LEGISLATURE
AS A WHOLE DID ADOPT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS.
A ALL RIGHT. AT THE SAME TIME THAT THEY ADOPTED
MULTI-mEMBER DISTRICTS, WERE THEY.ALL To BE ELECTED AT-
LARGE OR WERE THERE SOMT NUMBER OF SEATS PROVISION?
YES.
"YESrtr h/HICJ?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZoI.IA
3U2
A I BEG YOUR PARDON?
q rryEs
r
il THERE WEP.E NUMBERED SEATS OR "yES, "
THEY WERE ALL AT_LARGE?
A YES, THERE I^TERE A NUMBER oF SEATS.
A WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NUMBER OF SEATS ? FI RST
oF ALL, 1'\rAS THEP.E ANY srATEl'lENTS i4ADE ABour rHE puRposE
OF THE NUMBER OF SEATS PROVISION?
A YES.
A WHAT WERE THE STATEMENTS AND BY WHuM WERE THEY
MADE ?
A THEY WERE MADE.-IF YOU I^TANT EXACT NAMES, I
}IOULD HAVE TO CONSULT MY T..TOTES
(WITNESS PERUSES DOCUMENT.)
THE COI,IMITTEE SUGGESTED TO THE LEGISLATURE A
NUMBERED SEAT PROPOSAL. HENRY W, LEI'fI5 AND .JOI1N SANDERS
OF THE INSTITUTE QF GOVERNMENT, SENA.I'OR BOBERT MORGHN oF
HARNE.TT COUNTY AND SENATOR ASHLEY CARTRELL OF BEAUFORT
COUNTY EXPLAINED THE PURPOSES OF NUMB=RED SEATS AS DUE
TQ l4nKING IMPOSSIBLE SINGLE-SHOT VOTING.
IIEPRESENTATIVE THOMAS BUNN OF WAKE COUNTY
STARTED OUT VERY EXPLICITLY,
!".. I DONIT SEE HOW THE SYSTEM OF SEAT
NUMSERING WILL HAP.I.I ANY GROUP EXCEPT THE
GROUP IT SHOULD HARM AND THAT'S THE SINGLE-
SHQT VOTERS. II'O
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303
A NOW, WHAT WAS THE PUBLICIS RESPONSE TO THIS
PROPOSED NUMBERED SEAT PROVISION?
A IT DREW CRITICISM OF REPUBLICAN AND BLACK
LEADERS ON THE GROUNDS THAT IT WOULD DISCRIMINATE AGAINST
POLITICAL AND RACIAL MINoRITIES, IN PARTIcULAR---
a (lxreRposlNc) DO yOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THAT
CRITICISI'4 WAS COMMUNICATED TO THE LEGISLATURE?
YES; DR. REGINALD HAWKINS STATED PUBLICLY--
REGINALD HAWKINS BEING A BLACK LEADER OF CHARLOTTE.-THAT
SEAT NU}4BERING WAS AIMED AT DISFRANCHISING THE NEGRO AND
DILUTTNG HIS VOTE. MR. ELDON NEILSON WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN
OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY TESTIFIED BEFORE
THE COMMITTEE AND I QUOTE:
!!...IT IS CLEARLY DISCRIMINATORY AGAINST
THE NEGRO AND OTHER MINORITY GROUPS.'I
A WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NUMBERED SEAT PROVISION?
A IT WAS ADOPTED BY THE COMMITTEE AND ST.IBMITTED
TO THE LEGISLATURE, BUT IT WAS NOT ADOPTED BY THE LEGIS-
LATURE. IT WAS COMMENTED UPON OR POINTED OUT TO THE LEGIS
LATURE BY INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATORS THAT THE SEAT NUMBERING
PROPQSAL MIGHT VERY WELL BE STRUCK DOWN BY THE COUP.TS AND
THAT MIGHT THEN ENDANGER THE wHoLE PLAN LEADING To A
COURT-ORDERED REDI5TRICTING THAT WOULD INCLUDE SINGLE
MEMBER DISTRICTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.
IN ORDER TO:PREVENT THAT2 IT WAS AGAIN EXPLAINE
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIIoENIX, ARIZONA
3A4
TO THE PRESS THAT THEY WOULD TAKE oUT THE SEAT NUIIBERING
PROPOSAL AND THAT wAS ADUPTED SEPARATELY FRoM THE PLAN
ITSELF. SUBSEQUENTLY IN 1971 THE UNITED STATES JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT STRUCK OUT THAT SEAT NUMBERING PROVISION AS
BEING CONTRARY TO THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
a AT THE SAME TIME AS THE 167---
JUDGE PHI LLI PS : ( INTERPOS ING) I AM A LI TTLE
CONFUSED ABOUT THE LAST PART OF THE TESTIMONY. DO I UNDE
STAND THAT IT WAS NOT ADOPTED BY THE LEGISLATURE? I UruDE
STAND HIM TO SAY THAT. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.
MS. WINNER: LET ME GET THE WITNESS TO
CLARI FY THAT.
BY MS. WINNER I
A IN 1966 WHEN THEY ADOPTED THE APPORTIQNMENT,
DID THE LEGISL,ATURE ADOPT NUMBERED SEATS?
. A THEY DID NOl ADOPT NUMBERED SEATS AS PART OF
THE TOTAL PACKAGE. TT I.,AS ADOPTED SUBSEQUENTLY.
q wAS THAT IN 1967?-
A I BELIEVE SO; YES.
A AT THE SAME TII.IE THAT TFIEY ADQPTED THE CONSTI-
TUTIQNAL AMENDMENT?
A YES. IT WAS NOT WRITTEN TNTO THE CONSTITUTION.
IT b,AS KEPT SEPARATE.
A AND I^JHAT ',^IAS THE PURPOSE FOR KEEFING IT
SEPARATE ?'o
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THE ANNOUNCED PURPOSE WAS THAT IT WAS POS.
sIBLE THli]' ,1 sEAT NUMBERING pR.oposAL t^JouLD BE F-ouND To
BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL EITHER BY THE COUR,TS OR ILLEGAL BY
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AI.ID TFIAT SEAT NUMBERING MIGHT
ENDANGER THE ENTIRE PACKAGE THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER,
LEADING TO A COURT-ORDERED PLAN. IN ORDER TO PROTECT
THE LEGISLATIVELY DEVISED PLAN, THE TWO PROPOSITIONS
I.,ERE KEPT SEPARATE.
AND SUBSEqUENTLY I^/HAT HAPPENED TO THE REMAINDH
OF THE NUMBERED SEAT PROVISION THAT I^IAS ESTABLISHED BY TH
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?
A IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY WERE ALL
STRUCK DOI./N.
a AT THE SAME TII4E As THE 1967 AppoRTrONtlENT
OF THE LEGISLATURE, ',,AS THERE AI'I APPORTIONMENT OF THE
CONGRESSI ONAL DI STP.I CTS ?
A YES / THERE !,'lAS .
DID YCU STUDY THAT AS PART OF YQUR STIJDY OF
THE APPORTIONMENT PROCESS?
Yc.52 I DID.
WHY DID YQU STUDY THHT AS WEI.L?
IT WAS UNDEP.TAKEN BY THE SAME PEOPLE BY.THE
SAME TIME AND STATEMENTS THAT WERE MADE OR CONCERNS TF,IAT
IaIEXE RAISED II! THE CONGP.ESSIONAL REDISTRICTING PRocISS
COULD P.EFLECT ON THE CONCERNIS AruD I DEp.s THAT tr,ERE
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AFFECTING THE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING PROCESS.
A WHAT WAS THE ISSUE THAT YOU STUDIED--WHAT DID
YOU FIND WHEN YOU STUDIED THE CONGRESSIONAL APPORTIONMENT
I FOUND THAT THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF CONCERN
ABOUT h/HERE TO PUT DURHAM COUNTY AS FAR AS A CONGRESSIONA
DISTRTCT WAS CONCERNED. THERE WAS A SUGGESTION AT ONE
POINT THAT THE RESEARCH TRIANGLE DISTRICT BE PUT TOGETHER
l'JITH WAKE, DURHAI''I AND ORANGE coUNTIES lvHIcH DREW THE oP-
POSITION OF THE RALEIGH CHAMBER OF COI.,IMERCE AND IT WAS
REPORTED THAT SENATOR GILES COGGINS OF WAKE COUNTY WAS
QUOTED IN THE PRESS AS HAVING SAID TO HIS COLLEAGUES THAT
I^'E OUGHT NOT TO PUT ALL OUR EGGHEADS IN ONE BASKET,. THAT
THERF WERE A I\:UMBER OF I^,HITE AND NEGRO COLLEGES IN THE
RESENRCH TRIANGLE DISTRICT THAT WOULD AFFECT THE POLITIC
COMPOSITION OF THE RtrSEARCH TRIANGLE DISTRICT AND THAT TH
DISTRICT WOULD BE MORE LIKELY To ELECT A LIBERAL CoNGRESS
MAN, AND THE LEGISTATURE OUGHT TO AVCID A SITUATION IN
}IHICH A CONGRESSMAN MORE FAVORA3LE'TO BLACK IN'I'ERESTS
bIOULD BE ELECTED.
WHAT ULTIMATELY HAPPENED?
DURHAM WAS INCLUDED IN A DISTRTCT THAT SORT
OF ARCHED OVER ORANGE, ALAMANCE AND GUILFQRD COUNTIES AND
INCLUDED FORSYTH, SO IT I^IAS A },ERY ELONGATED DI.STRI cT
THAT WENT FROI4 FORSYTH THEN OVER ALONG THE TOP BOUNDARY
OF THE STATE DOV\'N INCUJDING DURHAI4 THEN FURTHER TO THE
A P. O- lor 2llfis
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
07
EAST STILL IN WHAT I WOULD REGARD AS A GERRYMANDER.
AFTER IT tIa,S DONE, SENATOF. CLAUDE CURRY OF
UURHAM COUNTY SAI D THAT NOBODY WANTED DURHAM COUNTY. THE
WERE P.FRAID OF THE NEGRO SITUATION AND THAT THER,E OUGHT
TU BE A LAWSUIT ABOUT IT, BUT THERE NEVER 1^IAS.
A DURING YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THE CHANGE IN
METHoD oF APPoRTIoNI'lENT IN 1965 THRoUGH-1968, wHAT IS
YOUR OPINION OF THE OVERALL PURPOSE oF THE ESTABLISHMENT
OF THE CURRE,NT METHOD OF APPORTIONMENT?
A THE LEADERS WHO GUIDED THs PROCESS SAID THAT
THEIR PURPOSE WAS TO PRESERVE AS MUCH OF THE STATUS QUO
AS POSSIBLE, THAT THE PREVIOUS I4ETHOD OF DISIRICTING THE
LEGISLATURE THEY THOUGHT WAS JUST FINE EVEN THOUGH IT
HAD RESUI..TED IN AN ALL-I,IHITE LEGISLATURE, AND EVEN THOUGH
THE LEGISLATURE WAS ALL-WHITE, IT HAD BEEN ALL-WHITE SINC
1900.. THEY SAID THEY WANTED TO PRESERVE AS MUCH OF THE
STATUS qUO AS POSSIBLE,AND SO I CONCLUDE THAT THEY WERE
CONSCIOUS OF THE DISCRIMINATORY EFFECTS OF THAT SYSTEPI
AND WANTED TO PRESEP.VE THOSE.
q PROFESSQR WATSON, I.'HAT IS YOI'R OVERALL CON-
CLUSION ABOUT THE ROLE OF RACE TN NORTH CAROLINA PQLITICS
DURING THE FIRST 75 YEARS OF THE CENTURY?
A IT HAS BEEN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THROUGHOUT
THAT PERIOD. WHITSS CONTINUED TO BE VERY FEARFUL oF IHE
EXERCISE OF PULITICAL fOWER BY BLACKS AND FOLITICIANS
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FOUND THAT THEY COULD APPEAL TO THOSE WHITE FEARS AND
WIN ELECTIONS ON THE BASIS OF THOSE APPEALS. THEY FOUND
INDEED THAT SUCH APPEALS WERE ESSENTIAL TO THEIR SUCCESSS
.BLACKS
FOUND THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT
POLITICAL POWER TO COUNTER THOSE APPEALS OR TO PUNISH,
IN EFFEcr, TnE oFFIcEHoLDERS oR poLITIcIANS wHo MADE THEM
A WHAT IS YOUR OVERALL CONCLUSTON ABOUT PARTTCI-
PATION OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THIS
CENTURY ?
A SINCE DISFRANCHISEMENT, IT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY
LO}I AND IT HAS INCREASED ONLY AS A. RESULT OF THE LEGIS-
LATIVE AND POLITICAL CQURT BATTLES, STRUGGLES IN CONGRESS
AND IN THE NEIGHBQRHOODSI
a WHAT ARE YOUR OVERALL CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE
USE OF OFFICIAL DISCRIMINATION IN NORTH CAROLTNA?
. L,UDGE PHI LLI.PS: YOLI ARE' TETTING YOUR VOICE
TRAIL oFF, COUNSEL. I CAN HARDLY HEAR yOU.
MS. WINNER: :I.IM ScRRY.
BY MS. WINNER
A WHAT IS YOUR OVERALL CONCLUSION ABOUT THE USE
OF OFFICIAL DISCRIMINATION IN NORTH CAROLI.NA IN THIS
CENTURY ?
A OVERALL IN THIS CENTURY, NORTH CAROLINA l-tAs
BEEN VERY DISCRIMINATORY IN ITS OFFICAL POLICIES AND
ALTHOUGH THE FORM QF I=LIAT DI SCRIMINATION CHANGED THE
F ?. O. &r 2!tal
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309
OVE RALL
EVI DENCE
STAND I NG
ABOUT 41
EFFECT OF IT CONTINUED TO BE
MS . h/ I I.INEP. : AT TH I S
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIDITS 41 ANT)
THAT 1.1P.. LEONARD l^IOULD LI KE
VERY POhIERFUL.
POINT I I"1OVE INTO
42. IT IS I4Y UNDER-
TO ASK SOME QUESTION
lt1R. LEONAP.Di I HAVE
I DO HAVE A FEW QUESTIoNS ABoUT r+1,
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE 1^IILL
TII.1E.
NO OB.JECTI ONS TO 42 .
HEAR THEM AT THIS
I.4R. LEONAPD: I CAN ASK THEI*.I ON
YOUR HONOR, I^'I THOUT INTERRUPTING AT THI S TIME.
MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
CROS S,
QUES T I ONS
OF THE WITNESS.
CROSS.EXAMINATION 2:35 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD.
DR, I^'ATSON, hllTH RESPECT TO YOUR EXHIBIT
NUMBEP. t+1 \,'lHICH, I BELIEVE,^ IS A CHART St'IOWING THE NUMBER
OF BLACK ELECTED OFFI CIALS I N NOP.TH CAROLINA/ DI D I HEAR
YOU TESTIFY THAT IN PA.RT THIS GRA.PH OR CHAP.T IS BASED ON
ESTIMA.TES?
A THE CHART I S BASED' ON FI GUP.ES PP.I I.ITED IN THE
STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF THE UNITED STATES WHI.CH IS PUB-
LISHED BY THE UNITED STP.TES CENSUS BUP.EAU. THAT IS NOT
BASED ON ESTIT4ATE. JT IS BASED ON COUNT. FROM 1982,
F t, O. gor tt6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 A76-1571
PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA
10
THERE HAVE BEEN NO---
MR. LEONARD: (INTERPOSING) EXCUSE I,lE.
THE WI TNESS: I IM SoRRY.
BY I4R. LEONARD:
a DR. WATSON, THE QUESTION I ASKED WAS: DOES.
ANY PART OF THE CHART"DEPEND UPON ESTIMATES THAT YOU
MADE ?
A THE CHART COMES ENTI RELY FP.OM FI GURES PUB-
LISHED IN THE STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF THE UNITED STATES
AND THAT DOES NOT:CONTAIN ESTTMATES--NO ESTIMATEs.
q you I4ADE SOtlE REFERENCE TO ESTTMATES t{ITH
NESPECT TO THIS EXHIBIT. DID I MISUNDERSTAND?
A I BELIEVE SO, SIR; YES.
A DOES IT INCLUDE ALL THE BLACK ELECTED OF_
FICIALS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES.
q AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOUR TESTIMONY WAS
THAT !{ITFJ RESPECT Tq THE GRQT/TH OF THE I.IUMBER OF BLACK
E.LECTED OFFICIALS FRoM 1975 I,NDI CATED AT A PoINT oF
ABOUT 200 TO 1978, yOU SAID THE GROWTH AND I THINK I. AM
coR,RECT, l!VERY, VERY LOrrt?r?
A YES.
q AS COMPARED TO I^IHAT?
A AS COMPARED TO I TS GROtr.ITH I N THE PREV I OUS
FIVE YEARS.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157.1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
311
q AS YOU SAID/ IT ALMOST STOPPED?
A YES, SIR.
a THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 200 AND 250, OR AN rN_
CREASE OF 50, IS AN ALMOST STOP?
A COT.4PARED TO AN INCREASE FROM 50 TO 2OO, yES,
sI.P.,
MR. LEOI.IARD! I HAVE No OBJECTIOIII To THE
ADI'1ISS.ION OF THIS EXHIBIT.
(PIATNTIFF EXHIBITS 41 AND 42
WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
BY MP.. LEONARD I
A HAVE YOU EVER WORKED IN A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN/
DP.. t''ATSQN?
A YES/ SIB.
a I^{HEtt?
A L972;
A AND I.{HAT CAI,'IPAIGN I{AS THAT?
A I WAS WORKING FOP;ALL THE DEMQCRACTIC CANDT-
DATES lr\r GUTLFqRD COUNTY THAT yEARr
A IN WHAT CAPACITY?
A I DIDNI.T HAVE AN OFFICIAL TI.TLE, I CAI'IE IN
AS A VOLUNTEER AT PARTY HEADqUARTERS.AND SAID'T COUTD''
COI.1E I N EVERY DAY . PRETTY SOON I T APPEARED LATE A.UGUST
AND THE TII'4E I HAD To LEAVE Tot/lN l{HIcH t,rAS LATE SEPTEMBER,
I FUNCTIONED IN EFFECJ AS AT'! OFFICE MAI.IAGEP. AND AS A
F P, O. lor 2!laJ
lJ i.bre6. rrod c.rerail ,larr
141
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFIG, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
P}IoENIX, ARIZONA
,-r'l ()JL'
RESEARCHER IN THAT CAMPAIGN.
a I{HAT ROLE DID yOU pLAy IN THE 1968 cAt,lpAIGN?
A 196 B_-NONE.
a WHERE WERE YOU IN NOVEMBER OF 1968?
A I WAS IN COLLEGE.
A DID YOU EVER INTERVIEW ANYBODY ABOUT THE 1968
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN?
A NO.
A EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT IT IS WHAT YOU READ
I.N THE NEh'SPAPERS?
A YES,
a DID yOU EVER CONTRIBUTE ANy l,,tONEy TO THE. CANDr
DACY OF A BLACK CANDIDATE?
I"1$ . WI NNER: I OBJECT To THAT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.
DID..
a": I{rrNESS:. I DoNrr RECALL THAr I EVER
BY I.48. LEQNARD I
A DID YOU EYER WPRK. IN A CAI.IFAIGN THAT INCLUDED
THE CANDI.DACY. OF A BLACK CANDIDATE?
A YES.
A WHiCH ONE I:'IAS THAT?
A THAT WAs IN 1972 WHEN HENRY FRYE WAS RUNNING
FOR THE LEGISLATURE IN GUILFORD COUNTY.
q AND WHAT--I GUESS you ToLD US THE ROLE yQU'o
a l. O. lc alti
lJ i.aatn raolti arllli. irlrt
s 141
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBINO, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876..571
PtoENtx, ARtZOtiA
313
PLAYED. DID YOU WORK IT.I THAT CAMPAIGN FOR OTHER CANDI-
DATES ?
A YES.
a so You IJoRKED FoR THE TICKET?
A YES, SIR.
q sINcE t972 HAVE you EVEP. I{ORKED IN AI.ly CAM-
PAI GNS ?
A NO.
MR. LEONARD: I'1AY. I TAKE ilUST A MITIUTE
AND APPROACH THE I^II.TNESS AND LQOK AT THOSE NQTES?
JUDGE. PHI.LLIfST YQU l,lAY Appp.oACH.
MS. WINNER: COULD YOU ASK MR. LEoNARD
NCT T0 TAKE THE I{ITNESST NoTES?
JUDGE PHILLIPSi I DONIT BELTEVE HE WoULD
GET AWAY WITH IT,
. MS." WINNER: IF YQU I:IOULD LIKE TO MAP.K
IT AS YQUR EXHI.BIT, YOU MAY'T
MR. LEONARDI . YOUID SETTER MARK IT DEFEN-
DANT ! S EXHJ BIT 53 ,
(perrNonNl ExHTBIT 53 I.tAs
MARKED FOR IDENTIFI CATION. )
By MR. LEoNA.RD I
a DR. bIATSQN, r SHOI,I Y,oU I{HAT HAS BEEN MAP.KED AS
DEFENDANTIS EXHI.BIT 53 AI.ID ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY IT,
PLEASE?
--ta
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFIG, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PI.OENIX, ARIZONA
3L4
A THIS IS A REPORT WHICH I PP.EPARED WITH THE
ASSISTANCE OF TWO RESEARCH ASSISTANTS IN 1982.
A AND WHAT IS THE GENERAL SUBLIECT OF THAT?
A THE TI TLE I S, ..THE NORTH CAROLINA REDI STRI CTIN
PRocESS, 1965 To 1965, THE EVIDENcE FoR DISCRIMINAToRy
I NTENT. .'
A AND DO YOU RECALL THE MONTH IN WHICH THAT
DOCUMENT WAS PUBLISHED?
A I I,'OULDNIT SAY TT l,lAS ACTUALLY. PUBLISHED.
IT WAS DUPLICATE.D BUT IT WAS NEVER PUT INTO A PROFESSIONA
JQURNAL.
A IN WHAT MONTH?
A I. DONTT RE.CALL.
A AND WHAT Y'EAR?
A I BELTEVE Ir U{AS 1982.
MB. LEQMRD '. I',E WON' T STEAL IT, CoUNSEL.
I'1S . WI NNER : To SAVE T I ME, I 1,/0ULD BE
HAPPY TO OFFER IT INTO EVIDENCE AND LET THE COURT HAVE
A CQPY QF IT'
dUDGE PHI:LLIP5: COUNSEL cAN OFFER IT INTo
EVIDENCE bIHEN IT COT4ES HIS TIME TO PUT ON EVIDENCE IF
HE WA.NTS TO DO IT.
BY MR. LEONABD:
A I SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S
EXHIBIT 54 FQR IDENTIFICATION AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN.JUST
F t. O. lor Lt6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BR I EFLY TELL US },IHAT THAT I S ?
DEFENDANT EXHIBIT 54 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.
A THI S I S A PI ECE OF PAPER WHEP.E I WROTE DOWN
THE PERCENT FOP. LEE IN THE SECOND DISTR}CT PRIMARY CON-
GRESSIONAL RACE IN 1972, I. IVE GOT THE LIST OF COUNTIES
IN ONE COLUMN, THE PERCENT FOR LEE IN THE SECOND COLUMN,
THE PEI1CENT OF NON-WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS II.I THE THIRD
COLU}4I.I AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COLUMNS TWO AND THREE
IN A FQURTH COLUMN,
q DR. WATSONI DID YQU INVESTIGATE THE EXTENT
TO bTHICH ANy 0F THE CANDIDATES l,tHO RAN FQR THE HOUSE
OR SENATE IN 1982 USED RACIAL APPEALS IN ANY OF THEiR
E LECT I QNS ?
A NO.
q DID YQU INVEqTIGATE THE EXTENT TQ WHICH CANDI-
DATES FQR THF. NORTH CANOLTIIA HOUSE AND SENATE USED RAcIAL
APPEALS IN THE 19BO ELECTIQN?-
A N8,
a AND HOW ABoUT 7978?
A I.lQ.
q 176?
A NO.
a DrD you EVER I4AK.E AN II.IVESTTGATIoN OF RACIAL
APPEALS USED IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE ELHCTION IN NORTH
'o
F 2. O. ad 116
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. ,vlAlN OFFICE, RAtElcH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARtZOf.lA
3.1" ri
CAROL I NA?
A WELL, YES.
a srNCE 1970?
A I LOOKED AT 1972.
a AND WHAT RACES rN 1972 DrD yOU LOOK AT?
A I FOCUSED--I. LOOKED AT ALL RACES IN Ig72 FOP.
WHI.CH I COULD FIND RECORDS. THE RACES WHICH h'ERE BEST
DOCUI'IENTED DI D NOT INCLUDE THE LEGI SLATIVE RACES, SO
I,IHI LE I LOOKED FOR RACIAL APPEALS II.I Ig72 WHAT I FQUND
PERTAINED TO THE PRESIDENTIAL AND SENATORIAL P.ACES AT
THAT TIME.
a b/oulD rT BE JUST AS FArR TO ANSWER THAT QUES_
TION THAT YOU DID NOT FII.ID ANY RACIAL APPEALS USED IN
LEGISLATJVE ELECTI.ONS FOR THE STATE LEGISLATURE IN LgTZ?
A THAT, IS CORRECT.
.,4 IS rT ALSO rlJ* To SAy, DR. WATSON, THAT WrTH
RESPECT TQ YOUR TESTIMONY AND YOUR CONCLUSIONS THAT IT
COI,IES TOTALLY FROM THE READING OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES AND
OTHER WRITINGS BY OTHER PEOPLE?
A V{RITTEN DOCUMENTS ARC THQSE WHICH HISTORIANS
TRADIT}ONALLY PREFER TO USE; YES.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ,JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION OF
COUNSEL,
THE i'JITNESS: ItM SORRY. YES; THAT IS
TRUE.'o
F P. O. !a ialaa
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TMNSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3 J.7
BY MR. LEONARD:
A COULD I ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT GINGLES
EXHiBIT 38, THAT IS, YOUR COMPILATION OF WHITE ANID BLACK
VOTEP. REGISTRATION IN 11 SOUTHERN STATES. DO YOU KNOW
WHAT PURGING OF P.OLLS IS?
A YES.,
A DI D YQU I.IAKE ANY INVESTIGATI ON AS TO I./HETHER
8R NOT ANY QF THESE FIGURES REFLECT THE PURGING OF ROLLS?
A YES, I DID*
A WHAT DID THAT INYESTIGATTON INDICATE?
A I THINK THE DROP IN I.{HITE REGISTRATION BE.TT.IEEN
19.64 AND 1969. WAS THE RESULT OF A PURGE
q tN NQRTH CAROLINA?
A YES,
q I,'{ITH RESPECT TQ THE OTHER STATES, DID YOU
IN.VESTIGATE THE EXTENT.TO l^lHIcH THE LAI/TS'AND PBACTICES
OT THOSE STATES REqUIRED THE PURGING OF RQLLS?
A I AI'4 AWARE OF THA.T IN, GENERAL BUT NOT IN SpE_
CIFIC TERMS FOR EVERY ONE OF THESE STATES.
a TE.LL US WHAT rQU KNOW ABOUT THE STATE OF
MISSiSSIPPI/ FOR INSTAI'ICEl \.{ITH RESPECT To THE PURGING
OF YOTERS OF THE ROLLS?
A I DONIT THINK I COULD TELL YOU AN.YTHING SPE-
CTFI CALLY ABOUT THE STATE OF I,II SS I SS I.PPI .
q CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT ALABAMA?'o
E P. O. lor 2tt63
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
770.3619 876-1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NO.
A DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE QUESTION OF A PURGING
AND THE EFFECT OF STATE LAWS AI'ID PRACTICES OI'I PURGIT.IG
WOULD HAVE SOME RELEVANCE TO THE ABILITY TO COMPARE OR
I'IAKE COMPARISO}IS FRO}4 THE CHART THAT IS ON THIS EXHIBIT?
A YES.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOI4ENT,
I.F THE COURT PLEASE?
(PAUSE,)
JUDGE PHI LLIPS: DURING THIS LITTLE INTERVAL,
I'1ADAr\1 REPORTER, IF YOU !,IILL INDICATE THAT EXHIBIT 41 t^/AS
ADMI TTED 1^,I THOUT QBJECT ION.
(PLAINTIFF ExHIBIT 41 T.JAS
RECEIVED Iru CVI OCNCE. )
BY MR.. LEONARD i
a DB, \,{AT5pN, .1 SFtQt{' yQU
'(tr-IAT r },!ARKED EARLIER
AS DEFENDANTIS EXHIBIT NUT.IBER 53 AND ASK TF THAT BE
BASICALLY. A 'dRITTEN $UT4MARY. OF YOUR TESTIMONY HERE T9DAY?
A YE57 QNLY' 0N THAT SPEcrrtC QUESTI0N.
A READ THE TITLE SO THE COURT KNQI.{S I{FIAT IT I.S?
A ''THE. NORTH CnRQU I NA P\ED I STR I CT I I{G PRoCESS,
1965 TQ 1966, THE. EVIDENCE FQB DLSCRII"!tNATORy INTET.{T.tt
q NQWT TURN TO THE LIST uF BIBLIOGRAPHIES.
A THE FOOTNQTES, YQU f,iEAN.
q THAT IS AN UNNUMBERED PAGE BUT IT HAS THE
F L O. !q l.las
tJ tungtr' No.tr c.m n errrt
148
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
319
bloRDr 'TFOOTNOTEST" AT THE Top AND THEN IT HAS, I BE_
LIEVE, 13 NUMBEP.S ON THE FIRST PAGE AND THROUGH 20 ON
THE SECOND PAGE. IIM SOR'RY, THE SECOND AND THIRD PAGES
ARE NUI4BERED. IT HAS A TOTHL OF 37 FOOTNOTES; IS THAT
RIGHT?
A 34, I BELI EVE.
a I r M SORRY. yOU r RE RI GHT --34 FOOTNOTES .
THOSE WOULD BE THE SOURCES THAT YOU USED IN
FORI4ULaTING YOUE OPINIQNS THAT ARE EXPRESSED IN THAT
PAPE R ?
A YES.
MR. LEUNARD' IN THE COURT PLEASE, I,AM
GQING TQ OFFER TH.IS EXFIIBIT INTO EVIDENCET
ilUDqE PHI.LLIPS; WHY' DONIT YQU WAIT UNTI L
YqUR TIME CQI'4ES TO THAT AND PUT IT I.N AT THAT TIME?
.. I.1R. LEONARD:. I'lY PRQBLEI4 IS THAT IF THEP.E
I.S ANY FOUNDATIoN 9BJECTIQN T0 IT, I DON'T I^{ANT To HAVE
To RE'CALL THIS WITN.eSSq ,r
JUDGE PHI.LLI PS: I.{I LL TL{ERE tsE ANY FOUNDATI oN
9BJECTION TO THIS EXHIBI I I.{HEN AND IF IT IS oFFERED?
' MS, l^IINNER: WHEN IT IS QFFEP\ED, I WILL
GLADLY CONCUR.
.JUDGE PHT LLI PS : YOU NEED NQT GLADLY.
MS. WTNNERI I WILL NOT OBJECT TO IT FOR
ANY REASON.'o
F P. O. !d rttas
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-36't9 816.1571
PIioENIX, ARIZONA
320
MR. LEONARD: I F COUNSEL WI LL .JUST TRUST
US _--
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE HAVE MARKED IT FOP. IDEN-
TIFICATION AND WE WILL ENTRUST IT IN YOUR CUSTODY.
PLEASE?
LIVER [T
AND TO BE
MS. WINNER:
CAI.I \.,E DQ THAT ?
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
INTO HER CUSTODY
RETURNED TO YOU?
MAY i HAVE A COPY OF IT,
couNSEL, ['HY
FOR THE PURPOSE
DONIT YOU DE-
OF REPRODUCTION
l'1S .. l\tI NNER :
. MR. LEOMRD :
THINK I HAVE FINISHEDq
(PAUSE. )
MS. WINNER:
SOME PENCIL NOTES ON IT THAT
THE WI TNESS t.
I WOULD BE. FTAPPY
oNE MINUTE/ YOUR
TO DO THAT.
HQNOR. I
I THINK THAT NOW THERE ARE
ARE COUNSELIS NOTES AND NOT
JUDGE PI1ILLIPS: \^{E WILL GIVE YOU AN OPPOR-
TUN.I.TY WHEN IT IS INTRQDUCED I.N EVIDENCE FOR APPROPRIATE
EXA|-IINATI0I.I TQ PUBGE IT 0F ANY I{ARKINGS TnAT ARE NOT
THOSE QF THE WITNESS ON THE STAND I,{HEN THAT COMES BEFORE
us..
BY MR, LEONARD J
A DR. I.{ATSON, I BELIEYE IN YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY
Y'OU MENTI ONED DR. .JOSEPH FARRELL AND DR. tJOnN SANDERS ?
YES.,
-
P. O. lq tlaC
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
321
a Do you KNow BoTH oF THoSE GENTLET4EN?
A YES.
a DO YOU KNOII DR. FARRELL TO BE AN EXPERT IN Arlry
AREA OF GOVERNMENT?
A HE IS AN EXPERT IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN IIOF.TH
CAROL I NA.
a DOES THAT INCLUDE COUNTY GOVERNmENT?
A Y.ES,
q DURING THE COUBSE qF YOUR STUDIES HAVE YOU
LEARNED FT?.OT4 uR. FARR,ELL?
A Y:S.
q DURIUE TnE COURSE OF YO-R STUDIES HAVE YOU
LEARNED TROM DR., .JOTTN SANDERS?
A YES,
q AND DO YQU CQNSITDER DE. SANDEP.S ro BE AN EX-
PE.RT, IN qQYERNMENT?
A YES..
A IN WHAT AREA?
A NORTH CAROLINA STATE GOVERNIIENT.
q IN YQUR DIREUT TESTIM0NY, YQU HAD AN OPINION
ABOUT THE PARTICIPATIQN BY BLACKS IN PQLITICAL PROCESS?
A YES, SIR.
A I AM NQT SURE I,/HAT THAT I,IAS. WHAT WAS IT?
A I SUPPOSE I EXPRESSED A NUI1BER OF OPINIONS
ABQUT BLACT FARTI CIPATI ON, I.IOULD YOU BE MORE SPECI FI C?
'a
F l. O. td l.tac
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
,A,A
A SURE. W?IAT I S YOUR VI EW AS TO THE ABI LI TY
OF BLACKS TO PART,IcIPATE.IN PoLITICAt PRoCE:S IN I9B3
IN NORTH CAROLINA?
a ALL RIGHT. HOt,l ABOUT
DEMOCRACTIC PARTY IO BLACKS?
A AGAIN, IT \.IAS MORE OPEN THAN IT HAD BEEN IN
THE PAST BUT IT WAS NQT AS OPEI{ A5 IT WAS TO I^II.IITES.
A HAVE YOU SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF THE STATE OF
NORTH CAROLINA IN RECENT },IONTHS, PUSSIBLY AS LoNG AGo
AS MORE THAN 12 MQNTHS, QF ATTEMPTING TO INCREASE THE
NUMBER QF RFgISTERED YQTERS lr.r THE STATE OF NoRTH CARO-
L}NA?
A I T WAS MORE OPEN THAN
PAST, BUT IT WAS NOT THE SAME AS
A
a
IT HAD BEEN IN THE
THAT OF WHITES IN 198].
THE OPENNESS OF THE
YES,
DO Y.QU THINK THAT THAT HAS II.IPACTED ON THE
BLACK VQTERS OF THE STATE?
A
a
A
a
I. HAVE NO WAY. OF,KNOWING.
YOU HAYE NOT INVESTIGATED TT?
THAT IS CQRRECT.
HAVE YOU MADE ANY SPECI FIC INVESTI.GATI.ON--YOU
ARE FRQM DURHAI'1/ BIGHT?
A I.r0, I AM FRQM CHAPEL HILL. I LIVE rN CHAPEL
HI LL NOW.
q BUT THAT si PART OF THE GQLDEN TRIANGLE, RIGHT:
F ?. O, ld tlaa
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WHERE THE :IEGGHEADS'! ARE?
A IT DOESNIT SEEI.,I VERY GDLDEN TO SOME OF US.
A HAVE YOU MADE ANY INVESTIGATION IN THIS
GOLDEN TRIANGLE AREA SPECI FI CALLY AS TO I^JHAT THE VI EI./S
ARE OF BLACKS WITH RESPECT TO THEIR ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE
IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THIS TRI_COUNTY AREA?
A I HAVE MADE NO PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATION.
I HAVE ORDINARY CITIZEN!S AWARENESS OF THAT.
a THAT COI.,!ES FRoM THE PRESS?
A YES.
l'lR. LEONARD: THAT I.S ALL,
JUDGE PU.ILLI.FS: [S THE.RE ANY P.EDIRECT?.
l4s. WINNER: I I-IAYE A QUESTIQN,
R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I Q N ]:OO P.M.
. BY MS. WINNER:
A ARE THE SOURCES WHICH YOU USED IN DEFENDANT'S
EXHIBIT 53 SOURCES WHICH ARE.STANDARD FOR HISTORIANS?
A YES.
MS. WINNER: I HAVE No oTHER QUESTIoNS.
JUDGE DUPREE: t HAVE A QUESTION OF QUES-
T I ONAB LE RE LEVANCE HERE . IIAS ABP.AHAT4 L I NCOLN ON THE
TICKET IN NQVEMBER OF 1B6O II.,I NORTH CAROLINA?
THE I{ITNESS: NO, SIR.
JUDGE DUPP,EE: I HAD HEA.RD THAT AND I JUST
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. iq ltlas
lJ tu5r,\ Lo'ot c{dr 2rarl
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, IAIEIGH, 832.9085
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324
I,./ANTED TO VERIFY IT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO I UNDERSTAND YoUR TESTI-
MONY TO BE THAT HAVING CONDUCTED A SEARCH THROUGH THE
SOU:RCES UPON T.'HI CH YOU RELIED II.,I GENERAL FOR YOUR IESTI-
MONY FOR EXAMPLES OF OVEP.T OR COVERT APPEALS To RACIHL
PREJUDICE IN PQLITICAL CAMPAIGNS TI.{AT YOU DID NOT FIND
ANY TN AIIY RACE AFTER L972?
THE !^tITNESS: I STOPPED INVESTIGATIT.TG IN
1972,
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. ON THE OBJECTION
TO,DR. I,^IATSON,S TESTIMONY AND THE EXHIBITS oN I^,HIcH WE
RCSET<VED RULING, WE WILL OVERP.ULE THE OB.JECTIONS As MADE
AND ADI.,IIT HIS TESTIMoNY AND THE EXHIBITS THAT WEP.E USED
I,N CONNECT I ON },I I TH H I S TEST I MoNY .
MS. I{i NNIER :
FP.'OM.THE COUR.T ROOM
JUDGE PHI LLIPS
MR, LEONARD:
BEING EXCUSED.
MAY DR, WATSON BE EXCUSED
I.4R, . LEONARD ?
r I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO HIS
(wrruess ExcusED.)
T1S. hIINNER: THE NEXT WITNESS I{I.LL BE
DR. PAUL LUEBKE AND MS. GUI'NIER WILL EXAMINE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS; HE MAY CQI4E ARoUND.
F P. O. !q Lt{lt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PI{OENtX, ARTZONA
3ti
(wHrReupotrt
PAUL LUEBKE
I{AS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTI FI ED AS
FOLLO}JS : )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N ]:OI P.M.
BY MS . cUIl..jI ER:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS, PLEASE?
A MY NAME IS PAUL LUEBKE. I LIVE AT 1311 ALAB
AVENUE IN DURHAM.
a WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT POSITION?
A I AM ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA IN GREENSBORO.
A COULD YQU TELL US WHAT YOUP. PRIQR PQSITIONS
I'tEBE ?
, A I HAVE BEE.N. AT UNC-G SINCE 1976. I WAS PRE-
YI0usLY ASSI.STANT PR0FESSOR QF SQCIQLOGY Ar UNC-cHApEL
HILL IN 175-\76, I WAS ON THE FACULTY AT TUPOLO COLLEGE
AS INSTRUCTOR AND ASSISTANT PROFESSQR OF SQCIOLOGY. FR9I.,I
19.71 TO 1975.AT .JACKSoN COLLEGE IN .JACKSON/ MISSISSIppI.
A WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATION?
A I HOLD A PHD DEGREE FROM COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.
a WHAT CQURSES D0 YOU TEACH?
A I TEACH A GREAT DEAL OF INTRODUCTION TO SOCIO-
LOGY, MY AREAS 0F SPECIALIZATI0N l^IHICH I TEACH ARE''o
F t. O. lor Lt60
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PI'{oENIX, ARIZONA
326
POLITICAL
AND RACE
SOCIOLOGY,
RELATTONS.
HOW WOULD
SOCIAL CHANGE, SOCIAL CONFLICT
YOU DEFINE YOUR AREA OF SPECIAL
EXPERT I SE ?
A MY AREA OF SPECIAL EXPERTISE IS POLITICAL
SOC I OLOGY .
WHAT IS POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY?
POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY IS A SUBFIELD OF SQCIO-
LOGY WHICH FOCUSES ON THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN SOCIAL
AND DEMOGRAPHIC FACTORS-/ AND pOLITICAL RESULTS. oNE OF
THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURES OF POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY IS TO
LOOK AT HOW SOCIAL AND DEMOGRAPHIC FACTORS \.'IHICH I,JE CON-
SIDER TO BE THE INDEPENDENT YARIABLES AFFECT THE POLITI-
CAL RESULTS, OR DEPENDENT VARIABLE.
WE ALSO LOQK AT THE EFFECTS OF POLITICAL AC-
TORS UPON THOSE RESULTS. WE LOOK A] THE EFFECTS OF
POLITICAL REPRESENTATION UPON SOCIETY.
COULD YOU JUST DESCRI BE BRI EFLY I',HAT PUBLI CA-
TI OI.IS YOU HAVE I N THE FI ELD OF POLITI CAL SOCI OLOGY PARTI -
CULARLY REGAP.DING RACIAL POLITICS IN NORTH CAROLINA
E LECT I ONS
A I HAVE SEVERAL PUBLICATIONS AND RESEARCH EFFORT
IN THIS AREA THAT I THINK ARE GERMANE. FIRST OF ALL, I
PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN THE JOIJRNAL OF POLITICS AND
EO-C I ETY I N THE FALL OF 19 79 WH I CH t^'AS AN ANALYS I S 0F THEto
-
P. O. lor 2l1.l
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
327
RUN_OFF PRII"IARY BETWEEN .JIMMY GREEN AND HOWARD LEE IN
SEPTEMBER OF 1976. SECONDLY, I PRESENTED A PAPER AT THE
19BI MEETINGS OF THE SOUTHERN SOCIOLOGICAL SOCIETY IN
LOUISVILLE WHICH WAS AN ANALYSIS OF FIVE MULTI-MEMBER
DI STRI.CTS I N P I EDMONT NORTH CAROL I NA AND THE RESULTS I N
THE 19BO GENERAL ELECTION.
I HAVE ALSO PRESENTED A PAPER AT THE I9B2
I4EETINGS OF THE SOUTHERN SOCIOLOGICAL SOCIETY ON ALL-
WHITE POLITICAL REPRESENTATIQN IN A PROGRESSIVE SOUTHERN
CITY. THAT WAS AN ANALYSIS 0F GREENSBORO, 1981 ELECTIoN,
ON? FURTHER UNDER A RESEARCH COUNCIL GRANT FROM UNC-G, I
HAVE EXAI,IINED I4UNICIPAL ELECTIONS IN DURHAM AND CHARLOTTE
IN 1979.
a Do you HAVE A copy 0F PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 43
IN FRONT OF YOU?
. A YES, MAiAM; I DO,
a IvouLD You LoQK
THAT IS AN ACCURATE COPY
A PAGE ONE LOOKS
PAGES ARE CORRECT.
MS. GUINIER: AT THI S
INTO EVIDENCE PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBiT 43
TENDER DR. LUEBKE AS AN EXPERT IN THE
(pIaINTIFFExHIBIT I+3 wAS
- MARKED FUR IDENTIFICATION.)
AT THAT QUICKLY AND TELL ME IF
oF YOUR vITsE?
ACCURATE. I ASSUME ALL THE
TIME, I WOULD MOVE
AND I WOULD LIKE TO
FIELD OF SOCIOLOGY'o
A P. O. lq 2atEo
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
J2ii
WITH SPECIAL EXPERTISE IN POLITICAL
THE IMPACT OF SOCIAL AND DEMOGRAPHIC
RESULTS.
SOCIOLUGY/ ANALYZING
FACTORS ON ELECTION
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I HAVE
NO OBJECTION TO THE EXHItsIT COMING INTO EVIL',ENCE. I
!,OULD LIKE TO RESERVE UNTIL THIS WITNESS IS FINISHED WITH
HIS TESTIMONY EXACTLY I,,THAT I S MEANT BY A SUBSPECIALTY IN
THE FIELD OF POLITICAL SOCIOLOGY.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: DID YOU I.4EAN YOU THINK DURIN
THE COURSE OF HIS TESTIMONY. HE MAY REVEAL THE NATURE OF
THE SUBSPECIALTY?
MR. LEONARD: EXACTLY, YOUR HONOR. -
JUDGE PHILLIPS! WE CAN PROCEED IN THAT BASI5.
I./E I^IILL ADMIT THE EVIDENCE OF THIS WITNESS FOR THE PUR-
POSE ON THE BASIS OF THE QUALI.FICATION THAT HAS BEEN
STATE.D SUBTJECT To A L4TER oBJECTIoN By' cOUpSEL, BASED
UPON HIS TESTIMONY.
. (PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 43 WAS
!IECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
BY MS. EUIIIITR:
a DR. LUEBKE, AS A, pOLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST, WHAT
DO YOU DO WHEN YOU ARE ANALYZING AN ELECTION?
A THE STANDARD RESEARCH METHODS FOR A POLITICAL
SOCIOLOGIST ARE BOTH QUANTITATIVE AND QUALITATIVE. WE
CAN POTENTTALLY LOOKJT AND SURVEY REsEARUH RESULTS. WE
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329
CAN ENGAGE TN THE INTERVIEWING PROCESS, THE ANALYSIS
OF DOCUMENTS BY WHICH WE INCLUDE CAMPAIGN ADVERTISING
WHICH MAY APPEAR IN NEWSPAPERS, OBSERVATION OF CAMPAIGNS
IN PROGRESS, AND NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS. I MIGHT ADD PERHAPS
IN CLARIFIcATIoN oF couNsEL FOR THE DEFENSeTs QUESTIoN
EARLIER THAT IT IS PARTICULARLY IN THE SUBFIELD OF SOCIO-
LOGY KNOhJN AS POLITICAL SoCIoLoGY IHAT NEwSPAPERS TAKE
ON PARTICULAR IMPORTANCE.
MY PRQFESsOR AT COLUMBIA UNIVEP.SI IY EnCOURAGED
us ALI^IAYS To REHD TI{REE oR FouR NEI.ts'pApERS pREFERABLY oNE
IN A FORETGN LANGUAGE. I DONTT THINK rOR My.WORK IN NoR
CAROLINA POLITICS IT IS NECESSARY TO READ ONE IN A'FOREIG
LANGUAGE, BUT HE WAS EuROPEAN AND ALI^,AYS ENCOURAGED U5 To
READ FRENCH OR GERMAN PAPERS AS WELL AS ENGLISH LANGUAGE
PAPERS t
. I WUULD UNDE.RSCSRE THE IMPORTANCE oF NEWSPAPER
As A SIGNIFICANT RESEARCH TOOL FoR us To EMpLoy lr.r soclo-
LoGY q -
A YOU STATED EARLIER, I BELIEVE, THAT ONE OF
THE ELECTIoNS I^JFTIcH YQU HAD EXAMINED AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY
PU5LI)HED A PAPER ON I^IAS THE 1976 LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR'S
P.ACe BET'dEEtl JIMt4Y GP.EEN AND Hot^tARD LEE; IS THAT coRp.ECT?
A. YES, MHIAM; THAT WAS THE p.Ut!-OFF pRIMARY FOR
THE Nol"1I NAT I oN FoR L I EUTENI,NT GovERNoR I N THE uEMocRACT r c
PHRTY.,o
A P. O. !d Lt.s
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q WHU WAS MR. GREEN?
A Mx. GREEN HAD BEEN I N THE GEITIERHL ASSEMBLY
AND I,JAS RUNNING FUR LTEUTENANT GOVERNOR AS A WHITE CANDI.
UATE.
a AND WHO YIAS mR, LEE'i
A MR. LEE WAS FROM CHAPTL HILL AND HE WAS A
oLACK CANDIDATE.
A HAD HE BEEN THE MAYOR OF CHAPEL HILL?
A HE HAD BEEN MAYQx OF CHAPEL HILL.
a couLD Y'ou DEScRIBE BRTEFLY WHAT |4ETHODOLOGY
Y.OY FOLLQWED IN DOING YOUR CASE S IUDY OF THIS PARTICULAR
ELECTIQN?
A YES; WHAT t' DID WAS TQ LOOK AT THE CAMPAIGN
LITERATURE WHICH WAS DEYELOPED BY THE CANDIDATES.; I
LQQKED flT ADVeRTISI^r'rG DeVELOPED BY' THE TWu CAMPAIGNS;
I uOOr.ED AT ELECTION RESULTS AND I' LQOKED Ar NEI'ISPAPER
ACCOUNTS QF THE ELECTION. I ALSO DID INTERVIEWS.
- EXCUSE ME--I MAY NOT HAVE SAI:D EXPLICITLY THAT
I DID INTERVIEI^JS WI'TH POLITICAL ACTORS TN BOTF{ CAMPAIGNS.
q AS A RESULT OF Y.OUR ANALYSIS/ DID YOU COME TO
ANY. CONCLUS'I ONS ?
A YES.
CI AND WHAT WERE TbIOSE CONCLUSIONS?
A MY FI P.ST CONCLUS ION WAS THAT TI-IE RACE I SSUE
WAS.A FACTOR IN THE C.AVPAIGN AND A RESULT OF THE CNPTPATEI'I..O
A P. O. lc 2llcl
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I ANALYZED THAT BY LOOKING AT DIFFERENCES IN VOTER
TURNOUT BETWEEI'J THE FTRST PRIMARY wHICH HAD BEEN HELD
IN AUGusr oF 1976 ArrD THE RUN-OFF PRIMARY wHrcH wAS HELD
IN SEPTEMBEP. OF 1976. IN PARTICULART l LOOKED TO SEE WHAT
HAPPENED IN AREAS OF THE STATE I^/HERE THE PIRCENTaGE oF
BLACKS IN THE POPULATToN h,AS Low COIYPARED To AREAS oF
THE STATE WHERE PERCENTAGE OF BLACKS IN THE POPULETION
WAS HIGH.
ALL t-IF US IN NORTH CAROLINA KNOW THAT EASTERN
NORTN CAROLINA IS A HIGH AREA OF BLACK POPULATION. }JHAT
I FOUND \,/AS THAT IN EASTERN N0RTH cARoLI'NA THE GReEN uAM-
PArGN wAS ABLE T0 INCREASE coNSIDERABLY I-{E NUMBER or
VOTES WHICH I.T RECEIVED BETWEEN THE FTRST PRIMAP.Y AND
THE SECQND PRIMARY.
IN THE FIRST PRIMARY, THERE HAD BEEN A NUI,IBER
QF WFIITE CANDIDATES AND. ALL OF THESE WERE ELIMINATED EX-
CEPT CANDIDnTE GREEN. IN EASTERN NORIH cARoLINA, CANDI-
DATE GREEN WAS ABLE TO INCREASE HIS VOTE SUBSTANTIALLY.
BY CONTRAST, IN AREAS oT THE STATE IIORTH AND
wrsT, FoR EXAMPLE, l'rITH \,/ERY L0w coNCENTRATI oNS oF BLACK
VOTERS, I NOTED THE GREEN CAMPAIGN DiL) NOT INCREASE ITS
HBSOLUTE VUTE AT ALL BETWEEN THE FIRsT AND SECOIID PxIMARY.
THIS IS THE KIND OF THING A SOCIOLOGIST LOOKS AT AND TRIES
TQ SEE WHAT FACTOR RACE I'IIGHT HAVE. THE INFERENCE WHI CH
I DREI{ WAS THAT IN AREjS OF HIGH HLACK PuPULAIIcN
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 e76.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
32
THE GREEN CAMPATGN BELIEVED THAT TT HAD A BASIS ON
WHICH TO ENCOURAGE WHITE VOTERS TO CO,VIE TO THE POLLS.
IN AREAS OF THE STATE I^IHICH HAVE LOW BLACK POPULATIONS
HISTQR.TCALLY, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEIP. INVeSTMENT THERE
WOUIII BE AS. IMPQRTANT AND THEY.DID NoT MAKE THAT EFFuRT.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
POINT FOR T5 MINUTES.
LETIS TAKE H RELESS AT THIS
(ruE PROcEEDING
RECONVENE AT )i
I^IAS RECESSED AT 3:r0 P.M., To
25 P.M,, rHIS SAME DAy.)
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779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FURTHER PROCEEDINGS 5:25 P.M.
MS. EUIXTTR: YOUR HONOR, I F I MAY JUST DO
SOMETHING OUT OF SEQUENCE, THERE IS AN EXHIBIT THAT THE
DEFENSE HAS ADVISED US THAT THEY HAVE NO OBJEUTION TO
WHICH WE FAILED TO GIVE A COPY TO THE CLeRK AND To THE
CUURT AND I WOULD LIKE AT THIS TIME IO JUST TTRING coPIES
UP TO tHE BENCH. THIS I5 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 5i(.J).
JUDGE PHILLIPS: TI-tIS IS ADMITTED T{,ITHOUT
OtsJE CT I ON .
Cpr-alNTIFF EXHIBIT 53(J) wns
RECEIVED IN EVDIENCE.) -
LET ME INTERRUPT ONE FURTHER MOmENT TO SAY
IHAT l,JE ARE rr0T cOltlc rq BE ERRATIC Tl{RouGH THE TRTAL oN
IHE SCHEDUUING, BUT We HAVE QITIE MORE CHANGE IN THE
SCHEDULE FROM DAY TO DIY. WE ARE GOING TO START AT
9:OO O!CLQ.K SIARTING TOMORROW I'IORNING, AIID WE WILL Au-
JOURN FOR LUNCH AND TAKE ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF AT THAT
TIME AND THEN ADJOuRN FOR THE EVENING AT 4I3O IN THE
AFTERNOQN. I'T WILL BE L2I3A TO 2:OO FOR LUNCH WHICH IS
START I NG A HALF-HQUR EAI1L I ER,
Nol^{ YQU MAY PROCEED,
(Y\,HEREUPQN,
PAUL LUEBKE
THE I,{ITNESS ON THE ST{ND AT THE TIME QF P.ECESS, RESUMEDto
F 2, O. lor 2llct
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779-3619 876-.571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
34
THE STAND AND
DIRE
TESTIFIED FURTHER AS
CT EXAT,IINAT
FO L LOWS
ION
:)
3:30 P. M.
BY MS. GUINIER:
a DR. LlUEsKE, DO yOU REMr-MBER THE QUESTION you
WERE ANSWERITTTG WHEN t{E TooK UUR RECESS? l,touLD you uIKE
I.lE TO REPEAT IT?
A YES; I TI1INK I HAD GOTTEN INTO THE ANSWER,BUT
IT I{OULD BE mICE FOR YOU TQ REPEAT THE QUESTION.
I HAD ASKED YOU ITHETHER YOU WERE ABLE TO
REACH ANY CONCI.USIONS AS A RESULT OF IHE CASE STUDY. THAT
YOU DID ON THE 197h IEE-GREEN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR'5. RACE.
JUDGE DUPREE: AND HE GAVE US THE CONULU-
SION.
.' {{
CONCLUS I ONS
BY MS . Otit ttt en :
MY NEXT QUES.TION IS, DO YOU HAVE aNY UTHER
ON THAT PARTICULAR RACE?
YES, MAIAM; I DO.. A SECOND CONCLUSION RELATtrSA
TO.THc FIRST, THAT THE K.IND OF TURIIOUT THAT OCCURP.ED IN
THE SECOND PRIMARY AND THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE HIGH
BLACK AREAS OF THE STATE AND THE LOW BLACK AREAS OF THE
sTATE IN TERMS OF VUTE FOR CANDIDATE GREEN SUGGESTS THAT
A CAMPAIGN OF P.ACIAL APPEAL trIAS IN USE, THAT IS TtI SAY, A
CAMPAI Gl'l APPEAL COULD BE USED IN THE 197b RACE I'tHICH FI T
I N I Q TLIE HI. STQRY OF RACI AL PoLARI zAT I ON I N EASTERN NoP.TH
F l. O. ad ll1.l
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335
CAROu I Na.
a DR. r-UEBKE, I AsK you ro LooK AT PLAIT.TTIFF's
E,XHIBIT NUMBER 44. Do YoU HAVE A CoPY oF THAT?
A I uo.
CPLAINIIFF E}:HIBIT 44 VJAS
MARKED FOR IDENTI FI CATION. )
A CAN YoU IDENTIFY THAT, PLEASE?
A YES; EXHIIBIT 4t} IS AN AuVERTISEMENT WHIuH
APPEaRED IN rHE DURHAII Ep:llJ_N-g_E-EBALg,--THAr IS WHERE
FQUND IT IN MY RESEARCH... SEPTEMBER 10, 12 AND 13., Lglb,
THAT IS TO SAY/ THE WEEKEND JUST BEFORE THE SEPTEMBER 14,
THIS ADVERTISEMENT FRQI{ THE DURHAM I,1O8NT.NG
H,E,RA,L,D IS SIGNIFIC,{rvT BECAUSE IT TIES INTe WHAT I. pRE-
VIOUSLY SAID ABOUT THIS RESEAROH.
t4R, LEONAp.D: rF THE COURT pLEASr,, I TRL,ST
TLIE CQURT WILL RECALL Tl-tAT I HAVE A CONTINUING, OBJECTTON
AND I WOULD LIKE TO STATE T"NEATru NOW IF I MIGHT BECAUSE
IT RELATES To DIFFERENT DocuMEI.irs, THosE Nut'rBcRED 4q
THROUGH 51(B) NI-L OF WHICH ARE NEWSPAPER I,RTICLES.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I,/E NoTE THE coNTINUING,oB.
JECTION TO THE AD},IISSIBILITY OF ANY OF THE EXHIBITS
RUNNING FROM--WHAT WERE THE NUI,IBERS?
I4R. LEONARD: 44 TO 5I ( B) .
JUDGE pHrLLrpS: 44 TO 51(B), ALL BEING
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. lYlAlN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085
779.3619 816..571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS AND EXCERPTS OF SOME KIND?
MS GUINIER: YOUR HONOR, MAY I RESPOND
TO THAT PARTICULAR OBJECTION FOR THE RECORD?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I THII.IK WE KNOW THE
OPPOSING POSITIONS AI.ID WE ARE GOING TO RULE ON THEM AS
WE RULED ON THE OTHER ONES. WE ARE GOING TO ADMIT THEM
SUBJECT TO RESERVATION. IF THEY PRESENT ANY DIFFERENT
PROBLEM THAN DID THE OTHER EXHIBITS, WE WILL RULE ON THEM
LATER.
MS: GUINIER: I.JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY
FOR THE RECORD THAT MANY OF THOSE EXHIBITS TO WHICI-I COUN-
SEL HAS NOTED HI S OB.JECTION ARE NOT, IN FACT, NEWSPAPER
ARTICLES BUT ARE POLITICAL ADVERTISEMENTS THAT APPEARED
IN NEWSPAPERS.
.JUDGE PHI LL l PS : WELL, MAYBE WE HAD BETTER
NOTE THEM FROM TIME TO .TIME AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY OFFERED
IN EVIDENCE.
MS. GUINIER: THAT WOULD BE FINE. THANK
YOU, YOt,lR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: SHALL I PROCEED?
BY MST GUINIER':
A YES. WITH REGARD TO PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 44,
IS THIS ONE OF THE NEWSPAPER ADS THAT YOU EXAMINED IN
STUDYING THE LEE-GREEN RACE?
A YES, IT IS.P.ND IT RELATES PARTICULARLY TO'o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
33',7
CONCLUSION NUMBER TWO CONCERNING RACIAL POLARIZATION,
BECAUSE THIS ADVERTISEMENT DEMONSTRATES WHAT I CALL
RACIAL TELEGRAPHING. THIS IS A NEGATIVE FROM THE DURHAM
MORNING LIESALD SO THAT WE SEE, IN FACT, THAT CANDIDATE
GREEN WHO I S WH I TE APPE:ARS BLACK AND CAND T DATE LEE WHO I S
BLACK APPEARS WHITE IN THIS NEGATIVE.
THE NEI,,SPAPER AD ITSELF, FIRST OF ALL, SHOI^JS
A PICTURE OF THE TWO CANDIDITTES. IN MY JUDGMENT, THIS
IS ONE EXAMPLE OF RACIAL TELEGRAPHING BECAUSE IT ALERTS
THE VOTERS WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE NOT KNOW TI-1AT THERE IS A
RACE COMING UP IN WHICH A WHITE IS FACING A BLACK. WE
ARE ALL AWARE OF THE HISTORICAL LOI,JER TURNOUT IN SECOND
PRII4ARIES COMPARED TO FIRST PRIMARIES. SO FIRST OF ALL,
THE PICTURE TELLS US SOMETHING.
THE SECOND THING IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE AD
AND THE COURT CAN PERHAPS BEAR WITH ME. I WAS UNABLE TO
MAKE A.-THIS WAS A LONG AD DOWN THE SIDE OF A PAGE AND
THIS IS REALLY THE BOTTOM OF THE AD SO THAT THE PICTURE
I S REVERSED HERE ON THE BACK.
ALLUDING TO THE FINAL SENTENCE NEAR THE BOTTOM
OF THE AD, THIS IS ALSO AN EXAMPLE OF RACIAL TELEGRAPHING.
MAY I INTERRUPT .JUST FOR ONE SECOND? THI S I S
THE SECOND PAGE OF PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 44; IS THAT
CORRECT ?
YES, THATJS CORRECT. I AM GOING TO GET TO MYA
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PIioENIX, ARIZONA
338
I NTERPRETAT I OIrl---
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) YOLI HAVE
GIVEN US YOUR OPINION AS AN EXPERT IN THE FIELD FOR WHICH
YOU HAVE BEEN QUALIFIED THAT THE IMPACT OF THAT AD IS
RAC IAL?
THE WI TNESS : YES, S I R. I KNOI^/ WE CAN
ALL READ IT. I WOULD MERELY POINT OUT THAT THE TELEGRAPH
IIESSAGE FROM THI S STATEMENT I S AS FOLLOWS:
..UNLESS THE WHITE PEOPLE GO TO THE
POr.-LS AND VOTE SEpTEMBER 14TH, THE RUN-OFF
PRIMARY COULD LARGELY BE DETERMINED BY A
RELATIVELY SII,IALL SEGMENT, I.E., THE BLACK
SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION.II
IN MY JUDGMENT, THAT IS THE MESSAGE--THAT IS
THE MEANING OF THAT. THAT IS RACIAL TELEGRAPHING.
. A RECENT ARTICLE FROM THE DURIIAM MORNING HERALD
SUPPORTS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS KIND OF AD. MAYOR TURNAGE
oF ROCKY MOUNT, NORTH CAROLINA, WAS ASKED By A REPORTER
WHETHER RACE WOULD COME UP IN THE 1982 CONGRESSIONAL DIS-
TRICT PRTMARY ELECTION. HIS qUOTE IN THE APRIL 8, t982,
DURHAM MORNING HERALD:
,.ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS PUT
BOTH YOUR PICTURES IN THE NEWSPAPER.II
MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE ME. IF I HAVE
UNDERSTOOD THAT TEST+MONY CORRECTLY, I AM GOING TO OBJECT
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PHOENIX, ARIZC[{A
339
AND MOVE TO STRIKE IT. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THIS
ELEETION WAS HELD IN 197O..WHAT?
THE WITNESS:
MR. I-EONARD :
YOU .JUST GAVE I S FROM 1980.--
THE WITNESS:
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
1976.
t976, AND THE QUOTE THAT
1982.
OVERRULED. I UNDERSTAND
DURHAM
REAC HE S
THAT HE IS OFFERING THIS AS TWO SEPARATE ITEMS FROM WHICH
HE HAS DRAWN A CONCLUSION OF RACIAL TELEGRAP.HING. I DID
NOT UNDERSTAND THAT HE I^/AS TRYING TO I.INK THE TWO UP.
BY MS. GUINIER:
COULD YOU TELL US THE EXTENT OF CIRCULATTONi OF
THE DURHAM MORNING HERALD?
A YES; THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE
MORNING HERALD IS NOT I4ERELY A NEWSPAPER WHICH
THE POPULATION OF DURHAM COUNTY BUT IS INSTEAD A SIGNIFI-
CANT-.-
JUDGE .HHI LLI PS : MR. WITNESS, IF YOU COULD
AVOID TRYING TO CHARACTERJZE YOUR TESTIMONY BY STATING
ITS IMPORTANCE2 .JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION' IT IS FOR THE
COURT TO JUDGE THE IMPORTANCE, THE BELIEVABILITY, THE
WORTH OF WHAT YOU ARE TESTIFYING TO.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. I WILL TRY.
THE DURHAM MORNING HERALD HAS CONSIDERABLE
CIRCULATION IN EASTERN-NORTH CAROLINA.
A ?. o, !d tatac
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
340
BY MS. GUINIEB:
a DID YOU M/rKE ANy OTHER GENERAL CONCLUSIONS
BASED ON YOUR ANALYSIS OF THIS LEE-GREEN ELECTION IN
797 6?
A THIS EL.ECTION SHOWS THAT THERE IS A SPECIAL
BURDEN PLITCED UPON BLACK C/TNDIDATES WHO ARE ,RUNNING FoR
OFFICE IN THIS STATEWIDE RACE. BLACKS CAN MAKE NO MIS.
TAKES BECAUSE OF THE HISTORY OF RACIAL POLAR.IZATION AND
THE POSSIBILITY OF RACIAL TELEGRAPHING.
MS. GUINIER: AT THIS POINT, I WOULD
MOVE THAT PLITINTIFF:IS EXHIBIT 44 BE ADMITTED INTo EVIDEhICE
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE WIIL ADMIT IT SUBJECT
TO RESERVATION.
(pUTI.JTIFF EXHIBIT '+4 l.,AS
RECEIVED IN EVITDENCE.)
. BY MS. GU I N I.ER i,
a DR. LUEBKE, DID yOU ALSO EXAMINE THE lgTg
KNOX-GAI-{NT RACE FOR MAyoF. Ii..l CHARLOTTE?
A YES, I DID.
WHAT METHODS DID YOU USE IN YOUR EXAMINATION?
I USED THE SAME METHODS THAT I DID IN THE
EARLIER RACE. I CAN LAY THEM OUT EXPLICITY. I USED NEWS-
PAPER ACCOUNTS. I LOOKED AT CAMPAIGN ADVERTISEMENTS. I
HAD A RESEARCH ASSISTANT INTERVIEW MEMBERS OF BOTH CAM.
PAIGNS. :
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
^rlAlN
OFFICE, RA|,E|GH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3&L
MAY I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT 45 THROUGH PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 49..AND. ASK IF YOU
CAN IDENTIFY FOR THE RECORD WHAT THESE DOCUMENTS ARE?
EXHIBIT 45 IS FROM THE EDITORIAL PAGE OF THE
cHARLorrE OBSERVER oF SEPTEMBER L2, 1979. IT sHows A
LETTER TO THE EDITOR.
JTJST IDENTIFY EACH ONE OF THEM.
ALL THE WAY THROUGH?
FROM 45 TO 49.
A EXHIBIT I+6 IS
THE CHARLOTTE OBSEF"VER OF
KNOX, FOR THE DEMOCRACTIC
AN ED I TOR IAL
SEPTEMBER 18
NOMINATION;
ENDORSEMENT WITHIN
ENDORSING EDDY
PLACED BY THE
OBSERVER OF
PLACED BY THE
EDTTIONS OF
25. THIS IS THE
EXHIBIT 47 IS AN ADVERTISEMENT
.KNOX FoR MAYoP. CAMPAIGN IN THE CI.IARLoTTE
SEPTEMBER 2I.
EXHIBIT 48 IS AN ADVERTISEI"IENT
KNOX. CAMPAIGN IN THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER
SEPTEMBER 21, SEPTEMBER 24 AND SEPTEMBER
WEEKEND BEFORE THE PRIM/rRY ELEC.TION.
FINALLY, EXHIBIT 49 IS AN AFTER-THE-FACT ANALY-
SIS OF THE GANTT-KNOX' ELECTION.
a
DOCUMENT?
AND IS IT TRUE THAT EXHIBIT 48 IS A TWO-PAGE
A EXHIBIT 48 IS A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT AND SO IS
EXHIBIT I+9. ;'a
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976..571
PIOENIX, ARIZONA
42
a
EXHIBITS?
AS FAR AS YOUR RESEARCH, DID YOU EXAMINE THESE
A YES, MArAl4, I DID.
A WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THESE PARTICUIIAR
DOCUMENTS IN YOUR SPECIAL OPINION?
TOGETHER THEY SHOW THAT BOTH THE..-
MR. LEONARD: (INTERPOSING) IF THE
couRT PLEASE, I HAVE A SPEC.I FIC OB.JECTION TO 49 AND I
wouLD LIr.E To ASK THE couRT To DIRECT couNSEL AND THE
WITNESS TO TAKE EACH ONE OF THESE EXHIBITS SEPARATELY
AND RELATE THEM TO HIS OPINION SO I CAN MAKE MY SPECIFIC
OBJ ECT I ON.
BY MS. GUINIER:
WOULD YOU START WI TH EXHtriBI T 45?
THIS IS PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 45. IT SHOWS THE
EDITORIAL STAFF OF THE.CIIARLOTTE OBSERVER WRITING A HEAD-
LINE ACCENTUATING AN ISSUE WHICH WAS A P.ACIAL ISSUE IN
THE 1979 M/TYOR'S RACE. THE LETTER IS A FIRST-PERSON LETTE
ABOUT CHARLOTTE NOT WANTING TO BECOME ANOTHER ATLANTA.
THE HEADLINE WRITER HAS CHANGES THIS TO,
I" . . WE DON I T NEED ANOTHER ATLANTA. t'
: THE POL.ITICAL CONTEXT FOR THIS LETTER IS THAT
CRIME HAD BECOME AN ISSUE IN THE CHARLOTTE MAYOF.'S RACE.
ATLANTA AT THAT POINT HAD A BLACK MAYOR, A BLACK POLICE
CHIEF' AND CERTAIN CRIMES WERE UNSOLVED, SO THE HEADLINE
A
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. A ArN OFF|CE, RALE|GH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PI.IOENIX, ARIZONA
343
THAT STATES2 rr...WE DONTT NEED ANOTHER ATLANTATTT INTRO-
DUCES--coNTRIBUTES--To rHE IssuE oF RAcE IN THIS M/ryoRAL
DEMOCRACTIC PRIMARY.
TI FFI S EXHI BI T 45?
A NO.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
46.
A PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 46 IS ALSO AN EDITORIAT-
ACTION BY THE CHARLOTTE OBSEBVER. IT SHOWS AS 45 DID THE
ROLE OF THE CHARLOTTE OBSEIYE8 STAFF IN THE RACIAL ISSUE.
I DRAW THE COURTIS ATTENTION TO THE FI.CT THAT THE OASCRVTR
IN ITS EDITORIAL ENDORSEMENT OF MR. KNOX,' STATES THAT,
II...THE MAJOR CONSIDERATIOI.IS FOR THIS
RACE ARE NOTr rt
I AM PARAPHRASING FROM. THE FINAL, SECOND.TO.LAST PARAGRAPH
II...THE MAJOR CONSIDERATIONS ARE NOT
EXPERIENCED IN CITY AFFAIRS IN UNDERSTANDING
AT A HIGH PROFESSIONAL LEVEL OF THE PROBLEMS
AND OPPORTUNITIES OF URBAN GROWTH.II
AS A POLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST THAT STUDIES SUCH RACES, I FIND
IT EXTRAORDINARY THAT THE PAPER DID NOT FIND EXPERIENCE
I1.I CITY AFFAIRS AND UNDERSTANDING OF PROBLEMS OF URBAN
GROWTH TO BE THE iSSUE.
THEY SAY INSTEAD THA'I Ti I SSUE I S,
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. i ArN oFFrcE, RArEtcH, 832.908s
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344
,"..HELPING TO FORGE CITY POLICIES OF
DIVERGENT AND SOMETIMES CONTROVERSIAL VIEWS
AND ENSURE PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THEM.II
(PAUSE. )
THEY GO ON TO SAY THAT MR. KNOX. IS BEST EQUIPPED FOR
THAT.
IT IS MY PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT THAT THE CHAR-
LOTTE OBSERVER CONCLUDED THAT A BLACK PERSON COULD NOT
BRING TOGETHER BLACK AND WHITE COMMUNITIES, THAT YOU MUST
BE WHITE TO BRING TOGETHER BLACK AND WHITE COMMUNITIES,
AN EXTRAORDINARY CONCLUSION IN THAT THEY HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED
THAT THE BLACK CANDIDATE WAS, IN FACT, MORE QUALIFI'ED ON
THE MERITS.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
THINK.THAT THAT EXPRESSION OF
CATES AN IDEA TO VOTERS THAT
THE WI TNESS:
TJUDGE PHILLIPS:
THE WITNESS:
BY MSi GUINIER:
ARE YOU TE ST I FY I NG. TI-JAT ' YOU
EDITORIAL OPINION COMMUNI-
HAS RACIAL SiENIFICANCE?
YES, S I R.
THAT IS YOUR TESTIMONY?
YES, S I R.
a
EXHIBIT 47
A
TO WHICH I
THE TEXT,
I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO PLAINTIFFIS
AND ASK YCU TO DESCRTBE THAT.
THIS IS AN AD BY THE KNOX CAMPAIGN. THE LINE
DRAW THE COURTIS ATTENTION IS AT THE BOTTOM OF
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.157r
PTIoENIX, ARIZONA
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345
'"..WE URGE YOU TO VOTE FOR A MAYOR WHO
IS CONCERNED FOR THE TOTAL CITY, NOT JUST A
FEW SELECTED AREAS.II
THESE ARE SOPHISTICATED TELEGRAMS, I ACKNOWLEDGE, BUT
THEY ARE CODES THAT SAY, IIHARVEY GANTT, A BLACK PERSON,
COULD ONLY REPRESENT A FEW SELECTED BLACK AREAS WHEREAS
EDDY KNOX, A WHITE MAN, CAN REPP.ESENT THE TOTAL CITY.II
I ASK YOU TO DESCRIBE PLAINTIFF,S EXHIBIT 48.
48 IS ANOTHER KNOX CAMPAiGN AD WHICH HAS
BROUGHT TOGETHER A NUMBER OF STATEMENTS INCLUDING THE
CHARLOTTE OBSERVER EDITORIAI.. WHI CH I ALLUDED TO A FEW
MINUTES AGO. WHAT WE SEE IN THIS ADVERTISEMENT IS'THAT
IN EXAMPLE AFTER EXAMPLE, THE EMPHASIS IS UiON ALL SEC.
TIONS OF THE CITY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CHARLOTTE WEEKLY
SUNDAY, THE THIRD REFERENCE THAT EDDY KNOX HAS A REPUTA-
TION' IN ALL SECTIONS:'OF THE CI TY.
QUOTING FROM FORMER MAYORS OF CHARLOTTE, THE
AD GOES ON,
'"..EDDY KNOX WILL SERVE ALL THE PEOPIE
OF CHARLOTTE.II
EDITORIAL, "KNOX CAN UNIFY THIS CITY.rr
CHARLOTTE WEEKLY SUNDAY--IIM SORRY. ItVE GOT
TWO PAGES AND I 'VE REPEATED.
FORMER CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS AND
coMt{tss I oNERS wR I TEr'-
C I TY COUNCI L
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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346
,.HE HAS A COMPASSION FOR ALL OUR
cITIZENSTTt
AGAIN, A SOPHI STICATED TELEGRAFI-i MESSAGE, BUT THE IDEA
THAT TO SUPPORT ALL CITIZENS, ONE MUST BE A WHITE.
.JUDGE DUPREE : DOESN I T EVERY CAND I DATE
FOR PUBLIC OFFICE AT ANY LEVEL IN THE GOVERNMENTAL STRUC.
TURE ALWAYS MAKE THAT CLAIM?
THE WITNESS: SIR, I THINK NOT. I THINK
THAT THE EMPHASIS ON SELECTED AREAS JUXTAPOSED TO ALL THE
CITY I S A PAR.TICULAR PHENOMENON OF RACIAL POLITI CS.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A WOULD YOT,I PLEASE DESCRIBE PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT
49?
A 49 IS A NEI.JS ANALYSIS BY REPORTERS OF THE
CHARLOTTE OBSERVER ON THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION IN WHICH
THE ANALYSIS FINDS THAT HARVEY GANTT'S RACE WAS A FACTOR
IN HIS NOT WINNING THE MAYORAL PRIMARY. THERE IS A DEMO-
CRACTIC PARTY ELECTED OFFICTAL WHO WAS UNWILLING TO BE
NAMED--WAS UNWILLING TO GIVE HIS NAME TO THE REPORTER.-
THiS IS NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THE ARTICLE ON THE FIRST PAGE
OF THE EXHIBIT:
'"..I THINK RACE WAS A FACTOR...'I
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: ( TruTTRPOS ING) I S THI S
BEING OFFERED TO PROVE THE TRUTH OF WHAT THIS PERSON
QUOTED IN THI S ARTICI.E THINKS ABOUT RACE AS A FACTOR?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
347
MS. GUINIER,: NO, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS
ONE OF THE RESEARCH MATERIALS THAT DR. LUEBKE HAS USED IN
FORMING HIS C.ONCLUSIONS AS A POLITICAL SOCIOLOGIST.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: UP TO NOW, I AM FRANK TO
SAY THE.RELEVANCE MAY BE MARGINAL AND THE PROBATIVE FORCE
MAY BE A SHADE WEAK. I THINK WHAT HAS BEEN OFFERED UP TO
NOW IN THESE EXHIBiTS OF POLITICAL ADS AND EDITORIALS DOES
SUPPORT AN EXPERTIS CONCLUSION OR PROVIDES A BASIS UPON
WHICH HE COULD FORM A CONCLUSION WHICH HE HAS GIVEN THAT
THESE CONSTITUTE RACIAL APPEAL I4HICH IS AN ISSUE GERMANE
TO THIS CASE. BUT THIS LAST ONE SEEMS TO ME NO MATTER
WHETHER IT IS CHARACTERIZED AS A P.ESEARCH SOURCE OR.HOW-
EVER IS SIMPLY AN ATTEMPT TO USE THE VIEWS OF A NEWSPAPER
REPORTER AND AN UNNAMED POLITICAL FIGURE TO PROVE THE FACT
THAT RACE WAS A FACTOR.AND IF THATIS NOT HEARSAY, I DONTT
KNOW WHAT HEARSAY IS.
MS. GUINIER: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE NOT
MOVED PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 49'INTO EVIDENCE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WHY DONIT YOU
WHETHER YOU WANT TO MOVE IT INTO EVIDENCE OR NOT?
MS. GUINIER: AT THIS POINT, I AM
ASKING DR. LUEBKE TO DISCUSS IT AND DESCRIBE IT AS
TICAL SOCIOLOGIST AS ONE OF THE TOOLS HE HAS USED
HIS CONCLUSIOT.IS.
JUDGE PHI L,-I-I PS: h,ELL, T AM SATISFIED THAT
DEC I DE
S I MPLY
A POLI-
TO FORM
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-36't9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
3&8
THE COURT IS WILLING TO RULE RIGHT NOW THAT EVEN AN
EXPERT IS NOT ENTITLED TO LAY THE FOUNDATION FOR THE AD-
MISSION OF WHAT IS PURELY HEARSAY TESTIMONY SIMPLY BECAUS
oF SoMETHING HE Hhs LooKED AT IN FoRMING A coNcLUSIoN.
MSr GUINIER: YOUR HONOR, WE ARE NOT IN-
TENDING TO INTRODUCE PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 49, BUT WE WOULD
LIKE DR. LUEBKE TO BE ALLOWED TO TESTIFY ON THE BASIS OF
THAT EXHIBIT.
.-IUDGE PHI LL I PS :
QUESTION AND I WILL SEE WHAT
MS, GUINIER:
BY MS. GUINIER:
EXHIBIT 49, WEREA ON THE BASIS OF PLAINTIFFIS
YOU ABLE TO FORM ANY CONCLUSIONS?
YES; SOME WHITE VOTERS IN CHARLOTTE WHO ON
THE BASIS OF THE ISSUES APPEARED TO BE IN AGREEMENT WITH
CANDIDATE GANTT WERE SHOWN IN THE ELECTION ANALYSIS PRE-
SENTED HERE AND OTHER PLI\CES TO HAVE VOTED FOR CANDIDATE
KNOX. THIS IS A PIECE OF EVITDENCE WHICH I USED TO BUILD
THE NOTION THAT THE KNOX SOPHISTICATED TELEGRAPHING WORKED
DO YOU HAVE ANY GENERAL CONCLUSIONS ON THE
BASIS OF YOUR RESEIIRCH INTO THE KNOX.GANTT RACE IN I979
AS TC fiHE ROLE OF RACE IN THAT EEECTION?
YES; MY CONCLUSIONS ARE THAT THE MEDIA.-THE
CHARLOTTE OBSERVER It!-PARTI CULAR, A RADI0 STATION WHI CH
WELL, ASK HIM YOUR NEXT
IT IS.
'THANK YOU, YOUR HON0R.
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RAN A CALL-IN POLL AND ALSO HAD A CONVERSATION ABOUT
THE RACE ISSUE IN THE RACE, AND THE KNOX CAMPAIGN ITSELF
SUBTLEY BUT DEFINITELY INTRODUCED RACE INTO THIS ELECTION
CAMPA I GN.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHEN YOU CALL THIS A CON-
CLUSION, yOU MEAN THAT IS YOUR OpINION, DO yOU NOT?
THE WI TNESS: sIR, IT IS MY CONCLUSION
WHICH I THINK IS--IT IS MY ANALYSIS OF THE DATA AND I CAN
AND DO WRITE IN PROFESSIONAL JOURNALS ON THIS BASIS.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
MS. GUINIER: J
|,JELL, GO AHEAD.
AT THIS POINT, PLAI N-
45, 46,
WE WILL ADMIT THOSE.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 44 THRU
48 WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENC
OTHER CONCLUSIONS
THE MEDIA PLAYED
THE
44,TIFFS MOVE INTO EVIDENCE PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
47 AND 48.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DR. LUEBKE, DID YOU HAVE
REGARDING THE KNOX-GANTT RACE AS FAR
IN GENERAL?
ANY
AS
NONE BEYONID WHICH I L'UST INDICATED.
AS FAR AS YOUR RESEARCH ON RACTAL POLITICS IN
NORTH CAROLINA, HAVE yOU ANALYZED THE 1gg0 ELEoTION FOR
THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION AND THE DURHAM COUNTY
BOARD OF COMMTSSIONERS?''o
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A YES, I DID.
A DID YOU USE THE SAME METHODS WHICH YOU HAVE
DESCRIBED IN ANALYZING THE KNOX-GITNTT CAMPAIGN AND THE
LEE-GREEN CAMPAIGN?
A I DID. I SHOULD ADD OR MAKE NOTE THAT I AM
A RESIDENT OF DURHAM COUNTY AND A REGISTERED VOTER IN
DURHAM COUNTY, AND AS SUCH CAN OBSERVE IN DURHAM COUNTY
BETTER.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
50. DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF'THAT IN FRONT OF YOU?
A YES.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 90 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
A CAN YOTJ IDENTIFY THAT DOCUMENT, PLEASE?
A YES; THIS IS A DOCUMENT FROM THE DLIRHAM MORNING
HERALD PUBLISHED IN THF MONTH BEF'ORE THE MAY, 1980 DEMO-
CRACTIC PRIMARY IN WHICH THE NEWSPAPER REPORTER SUMF{ARIZES
EFFORTS TO ELECT AN ALL-WHITE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF COM-
MISSIONERS AS WELL AS AN ALL-WHITE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF
EDUCAT I ON.
THE ARTICLE TAKES NOTE OF THE FACT THAT THE
ALL-WHITE ELECTORAL ATTEMPT WAS IN THE WAKE OF A SUCCESS.
FUL ALL-WHITE ELECTION SLATE ELECTED FOR CITY COUNCIL
ELECTIONS IN NOVEMBER OF 1979. THIS IS NOTED IN THE
THIRD COLUMN OF THE AETICLE.
350
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IN THAT ELECTION, THE IICODE,II THE TELEGRAPHED
ISSUE WAS PROGRESS AND THE ISSUE WAS A TOW.INCOME BLACK
COMMUNITY WHICI.I WAS FIGHTING THE EXTENSION OF A HIGHWAY.
THIS ARTICLE LINKS THEN BOTH THE NOVEMBER 1979 SUCCESSFUL
ATTEMPT TO ELECT AN ALL-WHITE SLATE AS WELL AS A PROPOSED
ALL-WHITE SLATE FOR MAY, 1980.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I AM
GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THAT TESTIMONY. i THINK IT
IS ONE THING IF THE COURT IS GOING TO LET THE NEWSPAPER
ARTICLE INTO EVIDENCE, THEN I THINK THE ARTICLE SPEAKS
FOR ITSELF. WE HAVE NOW HEARD THE WITNESS TELL US WHAT
THE ART I CLE I S. NOW, WHETHER HE REL I ED ON THE ARTI-CLE
FOR A CoNCLUSION IS ONE THING, BUT FoR HIM TO CHARACTERTZE
WHAT THE ARTICLE SAYS, IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE QUITE BEYOND
THE BOUNDS OT'ANY RULE OF EVIDENCE. I MOVE TO STRIKE THAT
TESTIMONY AND HAVE COUNSEL PROPERLY LAY A FOUNDATION FOR
THE ARTICLE AND HOW THE WITNESS USED IT.
JUDGE PHI I-LI PS: I THINK IT IS WHAT THE
WITNESS IS TESTIFYING TO AND IS SUBJECT TO CROSS.EXAMINA-
TION AND IS SUB.JECT TO ASSESSING BY TI-IIS COURT IS IT FROM
THIS SOURCE AND OTHERS HE DRAWS A CONCLUSION THAT HE HAS
STATED AS THAT OF AN EXPERT IN ANALYZING THE SOCIOLOGY OF
POLITICS AND WE WILL RECEIVE THE TESTIMONY FOR THAT PURPOS
AND ASSESS IT ACCORDINGLY. WE DONIT HAVE, OF COURSE, ANY
OFFER OF THIS EXHIBILINTO EVIDENCE AT THIS TIME, AS I
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UNDERSTAND IT?
MS. GUINIER: THAT IS CORRECT, YOUR HoNoR
BY MS. GUINIER:
A MAY I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT 51 AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT?
(PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 5i wAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFiCATION. )
A IT IS AN ADVERTISEMENT I^JHICH APPEARED IN THE
DURHAM MORNING HERALD ON MAy 4, 1990, ON THE EVE OF THE
I4AY 1980 PRIMARY ELECTION.
A IS THIS O[.IE OF THE RESEARCH MATERIALS THAT YOU
HAVE USED IN FORMING YOUR CONCLUSION?
A YES; IT IS A CAMPAIGN ADVERTISEMENT.
a AND COULD yOU DESCRIBE THIS PARTICULAR DOCU-
MENT FOR US?
. A THIS IS A D.OCUMENT WHICH SHOWS A PICTURE OF
FIVE WHITE MEMBERS OF THE ALL.WHITE SLATE ALLUDED TO PRE.
VIOUSLY AND URGES PEOPLE TO'VOTE FOR THESE FIVE CANDI-
DATES.
a ANiD WHAT CONCLUSIONS DO yOU DRAW FROM THIS
PARTICULAR DOCUMENT?
A THIS IS NOT PARTICULARLY SOPHISTICATED. IT IS
MERELY SAYING--IT IS SHOWING THE PICTURES OF FIVE WHITE
MEN AND SAYING, IF YOU WISH To VoTE WHITE HERE IS YoUR
SLATE.tj
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D] D YOU ALSO ANALYZE ANY.--
.JUDGE BRITT: JUST A MOMENT. I WANT TO
ASK A QUESTIOI.,|. DO I TAKE IT THAT YOU FEEL THAT THE ONLY
WAY THAT RACIAL TELEGRAPHING COULD BE AVOIDED WOULD BE
TO ELIMINATE PHOTOGRAPHS FROT,I POLITICAL ADS?
THE WITNESS: SIR, I EXAMINE THESE ELEC-
TIONS IN A POLITICAL CONTEXT. I DO NOT MEAN TO SUGGEST
THAT EVERY TIME A PICTURE OF A WHITE CANDIDATE APPEARS
THAT THAT IS RACIAL APPEITL AND THEREFORE I DO NoT SUGGEST
AS A REMEDY THAT PICTURES MUST BE BANNED FROM POLITICAL
CAMPAIGNS. BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS
FOR MAY 1980, MY ANALYSIS IS THAT THE USE OR PURPOSE OF
PLACING FIVE WHITE MENTS PICTURE IN THE PAPER WAS TO MAKE
A RACIAL APPEA.L TO WHITE VOTERS.
"IUDGE BR I TT :
MS. GUINIER:
BY MS. GUINIER.:
YOU MAY PF:OCEED.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
a DID YOL'R ANALYSIS^ OF PLATNTIFFTS EXHIBIT 51
ALSO INCLUDE AN ANALYSIS OF THE LANGUAGE THAI' WAS USED
I N THAT PART I C ULAR ADVERT I SEI\iENT ?
A YES; AT THE.I}OTTOM OF THE AD IS A REFERENCE TO
IICONTINUED PROGRESS IN DURHAM COUNTY.I' THIS REFERS TO,
FOR THOSE WHO ARE FAMILIAR T.IITH THE CONTEXT OF DURHAM
couNTY poL. r T I CS, THE USE OF PROGRESS AS THE CODE !,/ORD I N
THE NOVEMBER 1970 CITJ COUNCIL ELECTIONS WHICH /I|IREFERRED
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To PREVIoUSLY. So rHE woRDS, 'TcoNTINUED PRoGRESS--tr
A (INTERPOSING) WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THAT
ELECTION?
A NOVEMBER 197 9.
a I rF: SORRY. WOULD YOU REPEAT THAT?
A NOVEMBER OF 1979, AND MAy 1980. "coNTINUED
PROGRESS,II MY INTERPRETATION OF THAT IS TO REMIND VOTERS
OF THE ISSUES IN 1979--FALL OF 1979.
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'IS EXHIBIT
51(B). DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT IN FRONT OF YOU?
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 51(B)
WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATI
A YES, MAIAM.
A COULD YOU IDENTIFY THIS, PLEASE?
A IT IS AN ARTICLE IN THE NORTH CAROLINA ANVIL,
A WEEKLY PUBLISHED IN DURHAM, SUMMARIZING A VOTER REGIS-
TRATION DECISION BY THE DURHAM COUNTY DEMOCRACTIC EXECUTIV
COMMI TTEE
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?
A YES..
A IN THE CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH THIS ISSUE WAS
RAI SED?
A IAM.
a WHAT DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT
51(B) AS WELL AS THE QJHER RESEARCH THAT YoU DID INVoI..VING
.)
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THE DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF .ELECTIONS?
A THERE ARE TWO CONCLUSIONS. NUMBER ONE IS THAT
AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE I^JHITE SLATE I^/OULD HAVE TO ALLOW A
BLACK DEMOCRAT TO BE ONE OF THE RECOMMENDED PERSONS.
THERE ARE TWO POINTS ABOUT HAVING A BLACK DEMOCRAT IN
DURHAM COUNTY. DURHAM COUNTY TODAY HAS A SIGNIFICANT
NUMBER OF BLACK DEMOCRATS AND FOR SYMBOLIC PURPOSES ALONE,
HAVING AN ALL-WHITE DEMOCRACTIC, SLATE ON THE COUNTY BOARD
OF ELECTION SEATS IS OF SYMBOLIC TMPORTANCE.
THE SECOND ISSUE IS THAT DURHAM BLACKS ARE
DISPROPORTIONATELY UI.JDER-REGiSTERED TO VOTE AND IT IS
MY JUDGMENT THAT A BLACK BOARD OF ELECTIONS MEMBER WOULD
INCREASE THE TIKELIHOOD OF BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION SO
iT HAS A SUIJSTANTIVE AS WELL AS A SYMBOLIC IMPACT.
MS. GUINIER: AT THIS TIME, WE f.lOVE THE
INTRODUCTION OF PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 51.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I
THE WITNESS
FOR THE DOCU-
MS. GUINIER: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE SIMPLY
ASKED THAT PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 5I BE INTRODUCED INTO EVI-
DENCE.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: NOT 51(A) oR 51(B), JUST
5T?
STILL DONIT KNOW WHAT IT IS ABOUT 51(B) THAT
HAS CONCLUDED AND I OBJECT TO THE FOUNDATION
MENT.
to
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MS. GUINIER:
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
THAT IS CORRECT.
THIS IS THE EXHIBIT WITH
PICTURES OF FiVE WHITE CANDIDATES, THA'I'BEING AT THE TIME
A BLACK CANDIDATE ALSO RAN? WE WILL ADMIT THIS.
MR. LEONARD: ItM SORRY. MY COMMENTS
WERE TO 51(B), YOUR HO[.IOR, RATHER THAN 51.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 5I IS ADMITTED.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 51 WAS
RECE I VED I I'I EV I DENCE. )
BY MS,. GUINIER:
a DR. LUEBKE, HAVE YOU ALSO EXAMINED THE 1980
MORGAN-EAST SENATE RACE?
A YES; I HAVE EXAMINED THAT RACE IN GREAT DETAIL.
I AM FAMILIAR WITH THAT RACE.
5 1(A) .
I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT
DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT IN FRONT OF YOU?
I DO.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 51(A) WA
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
WOULD YOU IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT, PLEASE?
A YES; THIS IS AN ARTICLE FROM THE NEWS AND OB-
lERVER WHICH REPORTS CANDIDATE MORGAN.-INCUMBENT SENATOR
MORGAN-.SHOWING AT A PRESS CONFERENCE A CAMPAIGN FLYER-'-
MR. LEONARD: (INTERPOSING) IF THE COURT
PLEASE, THIS IS A POLITICAL STATEMENT BY OI'IE CANDIDATE INo
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A CAMPAIGN AGAINST ANOTHER. MY DOCUMENT IS NOT EVEN
CLEAR. I CANNOT READ THE ENTIRE ST9RY, BUT IT HAS LITTL
OR NO RELEVANCE TO THIS LAWSUIT AND I OBJECT ON THE
GROUNDS THAT IT IS RANK HEARSAY.
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : COUNSEL, WOULD YOU MIND
ASKING YOUR l/^/ITNESS THE QUESTION WHETHER HE HAS DRAWN ANY
CONCLUSIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE MATTER AT IiSSUE ARISING
FROM HIS STUDY OF THE MORGAN-EAST CAMPAIGN AND LET HIM
STATE THAT CONCLUSION IF HE HAS ONE, AND THEN ASK HIM THE
BASIS UPON WHICH HE MAY HAVE DRAWN IT?
MS. GUINIER: I WOULD BE HAPPY TO DO
THAT, YOUR HONOR.
BY MSi GUINteR:
A DR. LUEBKE, HAVE YOU DRAWN ANY CONCLUSIONS
ABOUT THE MORGAN-EAST RACE IN 1980?
A YES; WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUES BEFORE THIS
COURT, RACIAL APPEALS WERE IN EVIDENCE IN THIS CAMPAIGN.
A AND ON WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSION?
A SETJATOR MORGAN HAD NO REASON TO FABRICATE SUCH
A CAMPAIGN FLYER.
.JUDGE PIIILLIPS: STRIKE THAT.
BY MST GUINIER:
A MY QUESTION WAS: ON WHAT RESEARCH MATERIALS DO
YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSION?
A ONE OF THL ISSUES WHICH I LOOK FOR IN ANALYZINGto
A 2. O. ior tlc!
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CAMPAIGN CONTEXTS IS WHICH BLACK CANDIDATE A WHITE
CANDIDATE MIGHT BE IDENTIFIED WITH, THAT IS TO SAY, THAT
A WHITE CANDIDATE WHO HAS BLACK SUPBORTERS OR ALLEGEDLY
HAS BLACK SUPPORTERS MAY FACE THE SAME KINDS OF ISSUES
AS A BLACK CANDIDATE.
IN PARTICULAR, ONE OF THE GENERALIZATIONS--
CONCLUSIONS--WHICH I CAN REACH IN MY RESEARCH---
JL'DGE PHILLIPS: (INTERPOSING) THE qUESTION
BEFORE You, MR. wITNESS, wAS Tt'lE BASIS uPoN wHIcH you
FORMED THE CONCLUSION YOU HAVE STATED THAT IN CONNECTION
WITH THE EAST-MORGAN CAMPAIGN, THERE V.JERE APPEALS TO RACE
AS A CAMPAIGI.I TACTIC.
YES, SIR; THE PICTURE OF
SENATOR MORGAN WITH CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: JESSE JACKSON AND
FORMER U.N. AMBASSADOR ANDREW YOUNG.IS A RACIAL TELEGRAM.
. UUDGE PHI LL I PS : WHERE DID THOSE APPEA.R?
I DONIT WANT TO TAKE OVER THE EXAMINATION OF THIS WITNESS,
BUT WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE SOME FOUNDATION MADE IF HE IS
GOING TO HAVE THIS CONCLUSION ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE. I
DON'T WANT TO STYMY,YOU IF YoU HAVE ANY EVI,DENCE oF THE
KIND THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED IN RESPECT TO THESE OTHERS,
BUT IT IS SIMPLY NOT SO FAR FORTHCOMING.
THE WITNESS:
DOCUMENT, EXHI BI T 5 1(A).
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
SIR, MY EVIDENCE IS THE
WE WILL ADMIT THE CONCLUSI
THE WITNESS:
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ON THE BASIS OF'HIS SI'ATEMENT THAT HE DRAWS IT FROM
THIS ONE NEI^/SPAPER ARTICLE AND CONSIDER IT FoR WHAT IT
IS WORTH.
MSr GUTNIER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DR. LUEBKE, DID YOU ANALYZE.THE VALENTINE-
MICHEAUX CONGRESSIONAL RACE IN WILSON, HALIFAX, NASH AI'iD
EDGECOMBE COUNTIES IN 1982?
A YES, MA'AM; I HAVE. I HAVE LOOKED AT THE
MICHEAUX-VALENTINE RUN+OFF GENERALLY, NOT JUST IN THOSE
COUNT I ES.
A AND DID YOU FORM ANY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THAT
PARTICULAR RUN-OFF PRIMARY?
A YES, MATAM. I^/OULD YOU LIKE ME TO TALK FIRST
ABOUT EXHIBIT 52?
a I WOULD LIKE yOU TO STATE YOUR CONCLUSIONS.
A MY CONCLUSION IS THAT RACIAL TELEGRAPHING WAS
VERY MUCH IN EVIDENCE IN THE VALENTINE-MICHEAUX RUN-OFF
PRIMARY OF 1982.
A AND COULD YOU STATE ON WHAT RESEARCH MATERIAL
YOU BASED THAT CONCLUSION? WHAT METHODOLOGY DID YOU FOLLO
IN FORMING THAT CONCLUSION?
A I FOLLOWED THE SIMILAR METHODOLOGY OF PREVIOUS
ELECTIONS AND WHAT I HAVE IN PARTICULAR IS THREE LETTERS
FROM THE VALENTINE CUPAIGN I4HICH WOULD BE ONE PLACE FOR
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ME TO START.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 52 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
a AllD you LooKED AT THOSE L.ETTERS WHEN yOU EX_
AI',IINED THIS PARTICULAR RACE?
A IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS RACE IN THE SECOND
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT FOR THE DEMOCRACTIC NOMINATION.
A AND THESE LETTERS HELPED FORM THE BASIS FOR
YOUR OPINION?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A COULD YOU IDENTIFY PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 52?
A YES, MAIAM; THIS IS THE LETTER WHICH I,'JAS. MAILED
OVER THE SIGNATURE OF CANDIDATE VALENTINE TO !'NEIGHBORSI'
IN WILSON, HALIFAX, NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTIES. THE
IMPORTANT POINTS FROM THE STAI'IDPOINT OF RACIAL TELE-
GRAPHING ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, PAGE ONE, FINAL
PARAGRAPH.
THE SEEMINGLY WELL.ORGANIZED BLOCK VOTE--SO
MUCH SO, THE POINT HERE, BLOCK IS SPELLED CORRECTLY,
B-L-o-C, THE BLOC VOTE, BUT FOR PURPOSES OF THIS LETTER,
THE WORD BLOC HAS BEEN MISSPELLED B-L-O-C-K SO THAT ANY
KIND OF CASUAL READING OF THIS LETTER COULD, IN FACT, BE
SEEN AS THE WELL.ORGANIZED BLACK VOTE. THAT IS THE
MEANING OF PART ONE OF THAT SENTENCE.
SECONDLY, IN A PARAGRAPH UNDERSCORED IS THE(o
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FACT THAT IIMY OPPONENT WILL BE BUSING HIS 9UPPORTERS TO
POLLING PLI.CES IN RECORD NUMBERS.'' BUSINC; IS WELL-IDENTI
FIED IN NORTH CAROLINA CULTURE AS BEING A CONTROVERSIAL
RACIAL ISSUE.
FINALLY, AT THE TOP Ot-' THE PAGE ttlTH RESPECT
TO THIS LETTER, UNDERLINED IS AGAiN, ilIF yOU AND YOUR''--
I WILL INTERPRET, MEANING, IIMY PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT.'?
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I
OBJECT TO THIS WITNESS INTERPRETING WHAT IS ON THE LETTER.
HE CAN DRAW CONCLUSIONS AS HE WANTS TO, BUT HE CAN'T
I NTERPRET.
THE WITNESS: I WILL DRAW A CONCLUSION
ABOUT THE MEANING OF THE SENTEI.ICE.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION
BASED UPON YOUR EXPERTISE AS TO THE SIGNIFICANCE AS
BEARING UPON RACIAL APPEALS OF ANY OF THE MATERIAL IN
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 52?
THE WITNESS: ' YES, SIR.
LJUL'IGE PHI LLI PS: WHAT I S I T?
THE WITNESS: IF YOU AND YOUR WHITE
FRIENDS DOt{rT VOTE ON.JUI-Y 27, My OPPONENTTS BLACK VOTE
WILL DECIDE THE ELECTION FOR YOU.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHAT PARTICULAR PARTS OF
THAT EXHIBIT DO YOU POINT TO THAT ARE SUPPORTING THAT
OPINION?
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THE WITNESS: I POINT TO THE TOP OF
PAGE TWO OF EXHIBIT 52, AND TO THE FINAL PARAGRAPH ON
PAGE ONE.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: VERY WELL.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE THIRD PAGE OF
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 52.
A I IM SORRY. I THINK I ONLY HAVE--I HAVE TWO
PAGES OF 52. I HAVE SOMETHING LABELED 52(B) AND 52(C).
YES; IN MY MATERIALS THIS IS A LETTER, TYPE-
WRITTEN, FROM VALENTINE FOR CONGRESS, DURHAM HEADQUARTERS,
JULY 21, 1gB2,
a Do you HAVE AN OP.I,NION AS TO THE SIGNIFICANCE
OF THIS PARTICULAR LETTER WITH REGARD TO RACIAL APPEAL IN
NORTH CAROLINA?
'A YES; I THINK,THERE ARE SEVERAL SIGNIFICANT
POINTS. NUMBER ONE, THIS IS A LETTER THAT HAS BEEN I^JRITTE
FROM THE VALENTINE FOR CONGNESS DURHAM OFFICE TO REGISTERE
VOTERS II{ THE CLUB BOULEVARD PRECINT. CLUB BOULEVARD PRE-
CINCT IS AN OVERWHELMINGLY WI-IITE PRECINCT IN DURHAM.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT.].PLEASE--EXCUSE
ME. I GUESS THAT IS A CONCLUSION WHICH HE CAN DRAW. I
DONIT KNOW HOW HE DRAWS IT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, LET ME STATE HIS
OPINION AS TO THE RACI+L APPEAL THAT IS TELEGRAPHED IN'o
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
363
THIS COMMUNICATION.
THE WI TNESS: THE WRITER OF THE LETTER
HAS SINGLED OUT FOUR BLACK PRECINCTS IN DURHAMI-BURTON,
HILLSIDE, WHITTED AND SHEPARD. HE HAS IDENTIFIED A LOP-
SIDED MARGIN FOR CANDIDATE MICHEAUX. IF WE TAKE THOSE
DATA AND LOOK TO THE MIDDLE PARAGRAPH OF THE LETTER, AND
THE LETTER I,IRITER ASKS THE REGISTERED VOTER,
I F YOU, THE
ELECT YOUR
LETTER DOES
I OB.JECT TO
r'...IF You oBJEcr ro rHIs DoMINATIoNT"
WHITE VOTER, ARE RESENTFUL OF HAVING OTHERS
OFF I C I.AIS.
MR. I-EONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, THE
NOT SAY, IF YOU WHITE VOTERS ARE RESENTFUL.
THE WITNESS---
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: ( INTERPOSING) WELL, HE
IS S.TATING AN OPINION. AS TO THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT EROM
HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THE LOCAL POLITICAL SCENE, WE WILL
RECEIVE TI.IE OPINION IN THAT FORM.
THE WITNESS: THIS IS A RACIAL TELEGRAM:
IF YOU WHITE VOTERS ARE RESENTFUL OF HAVING OTHERS--THAT
IS, BLACK VOTERS--ELECT yOUR OFFICTALS THEN yOU SHOULD
VOTE ON JULY 27.
A FINAd CONCLUSION FROM THIS LETTER AND I APOLO
GTZE FOR THAT CONCLUSIOI.I/OPINION/ANALYSI S TERMS NOT BEING
C LEAR.
.JUDGE PHI I{I PS: YOU HAVE BEEN QUALIFIED AS
F ,. O. lor 2atas
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AN EXPERT BECAUSE OF YOUR BACKGROUND AND TRAINING AND
INTERSTS, AND ON THE BASIS THAT BECAUSE OF THAT YOU ARE
ABLE TO COMMUNICATE OPINIONS TO THE COURT WHICH HAS THE
PRCBLEM OF FINDING FACTS THAT WILL BE HELPFUL TO THE COURT
IN FINDING THOSE FACTS ON THE BASIS THAT YOU BETTER THAN
THE COURT HAVE A CAPABILITY TO LOOK AiT RAW DATA AND FROM
IT DRAW CONCLUSIONS AND EXPRESS OPINIONS. THAT IS THE
SOLE BASIS ON WHICH YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO GIVE AN OPINION.
TESTIMONY FOR THAT REASON TO THE OFFERING OF OPINIONS AS
TO THE MATTER AT ISSUE.
THANK YOU.
WHY DONIT ALL OF YOU,
THE WITNESS:
.JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
THE WITNESS:
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
THANK YOU, SIR.
YOU SHOULD CONFINE YOUR
COUNSEL-.WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE STATE OF THE RECORD
THAT'IS BEING DEVELOPED ON THIS POINT. IT IS HIGHLY
SENSITIVE TESTIMONY. IT IS THE OFFERING OF OPINION ON
HIGHLY SENSITIVE POL.ITICAL MATTERS AND WE ARE CONCERNED
THAT IN MAKING A RECORD IN I^JHICH AN OPINION IS EXPRESSED
ABOUT THE RACIAL APPEAL IMPLICIT IN THESE MATERIALS THAT
THE RECORD REFLECT EXACTLY THOSE PORTIONS OF THESE COM-
MUNICATIOT]S THAT ARE BEING USED BY THE WITNESS AS A BASI S
FOR HIS OPINION, THAT THERE IS IMPLICIT IN THESE VARIOUS
COMMUNICATIONS A RACIAL APPE/TL SO IF YOU WILL ASK HIM IN
GIVING HIS OPINION ALTO THE RACIAL APPEP.L THAT HE THIiNKS
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IS IMPLICIT IN THESE VARIOUS DOCUI1ENTS TO IDENTIFY TI-IOSE
AND TO GIVE HIS OPINION AS TO WHAT THE APPEAL IS--THE
RACIAL APPEAL, USING THE PARTICULAR WORDS.
MS. GUINIER: I WILL CERTAINLY MAKE A
BETTER EFFORT. TO DO THAT, YOUR HONOR.
BY M5. GUINIER:
YOU HAVE DESCRIBED A LETTER SENT OUT BY THE
VALENTINE FOR CONGRESS CAMPAIGN ENTITLED 'tDEAR NEIGHBOR.II
DO YOU ALSO HAVE THE LETTER WHICH IS ATTACHED TO PLAIN.
TIFFIS EXHIBIT 52 WHICH WAS SENT OUT BY. THE VALENTINE
FOR CONGRESS CAMPAIGN THAT IS ADDRESSED, ''DEAR FELLOW
DEMOCRATSII ?
A YES, I DO.
a courD you IDENTIFy rHls PARTICULAR DOCUMENT AND
IDENTIFY IN PARTICULAR WITHOUT DESCRIBING--JUST IDENTIFY
THE PORTIONS OF THIS DOCUMENT WHICI.t YOU FEEL ARE PARTI.
CULARLY SIGNIFICANT. WHICT.t IN YOUR OPINION ARE RACIAL AP-
PEALS ? '
A YES; I WOULD BE GLAD TO READ THOSE SENTENC E S
MY STICKINGWHICH I BELIEVE ARE RACIAL TELEGRAMS WITHOUT
WORDS I NTO I T. I^JOULD THAT PLEASE THE COURT?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YES, I THINK THAT woULD BE
HELPFUL. THEN HOW YOU INTERPRET IT WOULD BE SOMETHING
ELSE.
THE WI TNES.S: AT THE BOTTOI4 OF THE FIRSTto
F P. O. llor ,ras
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PI-|oENIX, ARIZONA
.-t ( . l'rooo
PAGE OF THIS LETTER.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I^/ILL YOU IDENTIFY IT BY
REFERENCE TO THE EXHIBIT?
THE WITNESS: YES; I HAVE IT AS NUMBER
52(B).
II...DEAR FELLOW DEMOCRAT: TUESDAY,
JULY 27 IS AN IMPORTANT DATE FOR DEMOCRATS
I N DURHAM COUNTY. II
THE FINAL TWO PARAGRAPHS OF THE FIRST PAGE OF
THAT EXII I B I T, READ :
II...OUR POLLS INDICATE THAT THE SAME
WELL-ORGANIZED BLOCK VOTE WHICH WAS SO OB-
VIOUS AND INFLUENTIAL IN THE FIRST PRIMARY
WILL TURN OUT AGAIN ON .JULY 27. My Op-
POI.IENT WILL AGAIN BE BUSING HIS SUPPORTERS
TO THE POLLING PLACES IN RECORD NUMBERS.
IF YOU AND YOL'R FRIENIDS DONTT VOTE ON LJULY
27, MY OPPONENTTS BIQCK VOTE WILL DECIDE
THE ELECTION FOR YOU.II
BY,MST GUTNIER: ,
A DR. LUEBKE, CAN YOU INTERPRET THOSE PARTICULAR
PORTIONS THAT YOU HAVE JUST READ?
TJUDGE PHI LLIPS: CAN YOU GIVE AN OPINION AS
TO THEIR CAPACITY TO CONVEY A RACIAL APPEAL IN THE CON-
TEXT ?to
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THE WITNESS:
BY MS. GUINIER,:
WOULD YOU, PLEASE?
YES; I CAN GIVE AN OpIttIOti
YES. MY OPINION IS THAT THIS IS URGING WHITE
VOTERS TO TAKE NOTE OF BLI.CK VOTERS' PRIOR PARTICIPATION
IN THE FIRST PRIMARY AND THAT IF YOU AND YOUR WHITE
FRIENDS DONIT VOTE ON JULY 27, MY OPPONENT'S BLACK BLOC
VOTE WILL DECIDE THE ELECTION FOR YOU.
\,UDGE PHILLIPS: YOU ARE UNDER NO COMPULSION
TO ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR ANSWER THAT YOU HA.VE ALREADY GIVEN
UNLESS YOU ARE ASKED A FURTHER QUESTION.
A O].I THE SECOND PAGE OF PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 52(B)
THERE IS A NAME AND ADDRESS. COULD YOU IDENTIFY THAT?
YES, MAIAM; I CAN.
WI-IO I S THAT?.
THIS.IS THE ENVELOPE IN I^JHICH THIS LETTER WAS
RECEIVED--THE ORIGINAL OF THIS LETTER-.WAS RECEIVED. IT
IS MAILED TO MY WIFE, FRANCES M. LYNN. SHE HAS A DIFFEREN
LAST NAME FROM ME. IT HAS OUR ADDRESS ON ALABAMA AVENUE
AND IT HAS THE NUMBER IIO4'I IN THE CORNER WHICH IS THE PRE-
CINCT IN WHICH MY WIFE AND I RESIDE. SO AN OPINION I CAN
VENTURE ON THIS PIIRTICULAR LETTER IS THAT THIS WAS SENT TO
ALL REGISTERED VOTERS IN MY OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE PRECINCT.
JUDGE PH I LI- I PS : WELL, WE WoN'T CoNSIDER THA
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368
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
BY MS. GUINIER:
A I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO WHAT HAS BEEN LABELE
PLAINTIFFIS EXHIBIT 52(D). DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT
DOCUMENT BEFORE YOU?
A YE S,.
.J UDGE BR I TT :
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 52(D) WA
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
52(D) AS IN DOG?
MSi GUINIER: YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT EXHI-
BIT.
.J UDGE BR I TT : THANK YOU .
MS. WINNER:
BY MSi GUINIER:
IT IS, IN FACT, MY EXHIBIT.
A WERE YOL' ABLE TO FORM A CONCLUSION AS A RESULT
OF THE RACIAL APPEALS THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED PREViOUSLY?
A YES.
a BEFORE YOU GIVE M€ THAT CONCLUSIoI.I, ON WHAT
DO YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSIONi?
A I AM LOOKING AT THE RESULTS OF THE SECOND PRI-
MARY ELECTION BY COUNTY. :IT COMPARES HOW CANDIDATE VALEN.
TINE DID IN THE SECOND PRIMARY COMPARED TO WHAT CANDIDATES
VALENTINE AND RAMSEY, BOTH WHITE CANDIDATES, DID IN THE
FIRST PRIMARY.
a AfiD WHAT QNCLUSIOTT DID YOU DRAW ON THE BASIS
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OF THAT?
A WHAT I FOUND IN THIS DOCUMENT WAS THAT--.
MR. LEONARD: EXCUSE IIIE. IS THIS THE
DOCUMENT THAT WE HAVE THAT IS MARKED GINGLES EXHIBIT 52
AND NOW 52(D)?
MS. GUINIER: THAT IS NOT AN EXHIBIT.
IT IS THE DOCUI4ENT THE WITNESS HAS IN FRONT OF HIM.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I APPROACH THE I.JITNESS
AND LOOK AT THE DOCUMENT?
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION?
A I DO NOT REMEMBER THE QUESTION. I IM SORRY.
a wFrAT coNcLUSION DID YOLJ DRAW AS A RESULT OF
THESE APPEALS?
A THE RACIAL APPEALS--THE RACIAL TELEGRAMS--HITDi.
BEEN SENT IN DURHAM COUNTY, WILSON COUNTY, HALIFAX COUNTY,
NASH COUNTY AND EDGECOMBE COUNTY IS WHAT THE EXHIBITS WE
HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING PREVIOUSLY SHOW.
WHAT THE RESULTS FROM THE CAMPAIGN SHOW IS THAT
THOSE FIVE COUNTIES WERE THE COUNTIES WHERE THE VALENTINE
CAMPAIGN DID THE BEST IN TERMS OF MATCHING OR EXCEEDING
THE COMBINED TOTAL WHICH CANDIDATE VALENTINE AND CANDIDATE
RAMSEY RECEIVED IN THE FIRST PRIMARY.
MS. GUI.NIER: AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR,
WE MOVE THE INTRODUE+ION OF PLA.INTIFFI S EXHIBIT 52.T
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JUDGE PH I LL I P5: WE t LL ADMI T THAT.
(PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT 52 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
MS. GUINIER: THAT IS THREE LETTERS IN-
CLUDED IN PLAINTIFFTS EXHIBIT 52.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I SO HAVE IT.
Ms. GVTNTER::
A DR. LUEBKE, HAVE YOU DONE ANY ANALYSIS OF THE
CURRENT SENIATE RACE--THE IMPENDII{G SENATE RACE?
A YE:;, I HAVE.
A AND WHAT METHODOLOGY HAVE YOU USED OR ARE YOU
USING IN THAT ANALYSIS?
A AS EVERYONE IN THIS COURT ROOM KNOWS, THIS IS
A RACE WHICH IS NOT YET OFFICIAL, HOWEVER, THERE ARE
CAMPAIGN MATERIALS WHICH ARE PUBLIC RECORD WHICH I AM
ALREADY USING IN ONGOING ANALYSIS OF THIS CAMPAIGN-.THIS
NON-CAMPAI GN.
A AND HAVE YOU FORMED ANY CONCLUSIONS AT THIS
POINT AS TC THE USE OF RACIAL APPEALS IN THIS POTENTIAL
SENATE CAMPAIGN?
YES.
A NOW, I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBITS 53(A) THROUGH (H) AND "IUST ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIF
THEM.
A .YES.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
lruo-rnnuscRlB|NG, lNc'
MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876'457r
PIloENIX, ARIZONA
(PLAINTIFF EXHI BIT 5](A)
THROUGH (H) WERE MARKED
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
A ARE THESE RESEP'RCH MATERIALS THAT YOU ARE
USINGINYoURANALYSISoFTHISPARTICULARCAMPAIGN?
A YES.
aoNTHEBASISoFTHESEMATERIALSHAVEYoUFoRMED
ANYoPINIoNSASToWHETHERRAcIALAPPEALSAREBEINGUSED?
AYES;ITISMYOPINIONTHATTHESECAMPAIGNAD-
VERTISEMENTS INCLUDE EXAMPLES OF RACI"TqL TELEGRAPHING'
,JUDGEPHILLIPS:WEWILLADJoURNCoURTUNTIL
THEMoRNINGATg:00o'CLocKATTHISTIMEANDYoUgANRE-
SUME YOUR EXAMINATION OF THIS WITNESS AT THAT TIME'
(TNEPROCEEDINGWASRECESSEDAT4:'OP'M'TTO
RECONVENE AT 9 : 0 0 A' M' ON WEDNESDAY' 'JULY 27 '
1g83.)
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372
CERTIFICATE
I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY' THAT
THE PRECEDING 205 PAGES REPRESENT A
TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE
PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH
CAROL I NA, ON TUESDAy, .JU!_y 26 , 1g g I .
TH I S, THE 1 3TH DAY OF AUGUST, 1g g 3.
UNiTED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASIERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
B. BUSH, CVR
FICIAL COURT REPORTER
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