Trial Transcript Volume 8
Public Court Documents
August 3, 1983

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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 8, 1983. 2f00126f-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/ebb87866-ef95-4257-8659-8a7964d37236/trial-transcript-volume-8. Accessed July 16, 2025.
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i:] L2 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2t oo 23 24 25 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH COURT CAROL I NA RALEIGH DIVISION RALPH GINIGLES, ET AL., ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Bt-203-c r v-5 RUFUS EDMISTEN, ETC., ET AL., ALAN V. FUGH , Er Al-. , 81-1066-CrV-5 .JAMES B. ET AL., JOHN .J. ALEX K. ET AL., HUNT, JR. , ETC., CAVANACH, ET AL. 82-545-CrV-5 BROCK, ETC. , DEFENDANTS. TR. I AL BE FORE THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T. THE HONORABLE W. EARL PHILLIPS DUPREE, JR. BRITT PREClSION BEPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 8or 2lld! lJ R.btoh, nonh c.rorril z70ll AT RALE I GH : WF:t)\lE SDAY, AUGU ST 3 , 1g B j VOLUME 8 PAGES 1312 THROUGH I5O1 I313 \12 I 2 3 1 6 6 7 I I 10 11 12 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPOBTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. Bq rrGC lJ iddeh. tbnh caroatn 2nrr 1.3I4M] 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA APPEARANCES ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS: LESLIE .J. WINNER, ESqUIRE CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA 95 1 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROL I NA 2.8202 ARTHUR .'. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLSHOUSER 6 KENERLY 309 NORTH MAIN STREET SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144 ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQrrIitE POST OFFICE BOX 3245 GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402 LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC. 1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE SUITE 2O3A NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019 . ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS: JERRI S LEONARD,'ESQUIRE KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE 900 17TH STREET, N.W. IJASHINGTON, D. C. 20O06 JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL NORTH CAROL I NA DEPAR'TI.4EI{T OF .JUST I CE POST OFFICE BOX 629 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602 - P. O. lor 2llAt lJ tul..glr, ia,om c.iol^r 270rr 31 5lMl{ I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 N 2l 22 OQ 24 25 o PREC]SION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 8r6.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZOI.IA TABLE OF CONTENTS VOIRWITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS EXAM DIRE ALLEN ADAMS By MR. LEONARD L37t-t342 1364_1366 I 343-1 I 44 BY MS. WINNER 1144-1164 1342_t34 BY JUDGE PHILLIPS 136b-1368 THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER BY MR. LEONARD 1369-1+19 1461 14b 5 BY MS. WINNER 1419-1461 BY JUDGE PHiLLIPS 14b1-1465 REBUTTAL WITNESSES EESNABq [!. GROFMAN (NECALLED) BY MS. WINNER I473-I474 SARAH BELLE STEVENSON BY MS. GUINIER 1I+76 -LU,, BY MR. LEONARD .: t47g-r482 1483_1r+Er+ BY tJ UDGE PH I LL I PS BY .JUDGE DUPREE REBECCA S. TAYLOR 1481-1t+81 14ul BY MS. GUINIER 1+85-1488 1494 BY MR. LEONARD 1488-1491 BY.JUDGE DUPREE BY JUDGE PHILI.IPS 1+91-1t+92 t492- 1494 A P, O.8or 1trltl lJ hrbroh. xonh c.roln. 27ur -[ 316 <M5 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 t9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 TABLE OF CONTENTS (COruT I NUED) EXHIBITS NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE IVED PLAINTIFFS 88 89 DE FENDANTS 26 27 28 36 t+6 47 50 . 51 53 55 62 63 6t+ RESOLUTION 1478 VOTING AGE POPULATION CHART 1t+95 1495 DEMOCRATIC PLAN OF DOCUMENT DOCUMENT HOFELLER RESUME ORGANIZATION 1+67 146 8 146 B 1377 1468 146 9 1t+70 1470 14b7 133t 14b 9 146 9 146 9 r37 2 DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES LETTER ED I TOR IAL FERRELL RE.SUME DOCUMENT ADVERTI SEMENT ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRATION DATA SCATTERGRAM--WAKE COUNTY SHERI FF ELECTION SCATTE RGRAM- -W I NSTON -SALE M CITY COUNCIL ELECTION 1326 1417 L4t / PRECISION REPORT!NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. aor 2t16 lJ Rd.teh. Ndrt c..o0n. 2rctr .1 3L7 M6 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .rc) 23 24 25 o o XX PRECISICN REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA FURTHER PROCEEDINGS THIS CAUS:E CAME ON FOR FURTHER TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON PHILLIPS, UNITED STATES C I RC U I T .JUDGE; THE HONORABLE FRANKL I N T. DUPREE, JR., UNITED STATES CHIEF DI STRI CT .JUDGE; AND THE HONORABI-E W. EARL BRITT, UNITED STATES DISTRICT LJUDGE, AT RALE I GH, NORTH CAROL I NA, ON WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983, AT 9:00 A.M. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY PROCEED. (wHrRrueoru, ALLEN ADAMS THE WITNESS ON THE STAI{D AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIE; FURTHER AS FOLLOVIS:) " * u t',F=lrilulr' * o I' o * BY MR. LEONARD: A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, YOU HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN. TELL THE COURT.BRIEFLY WHAT IS THE GENESIS OF CHAPTER I, WHICH IS THE PLAN FOR REDISTRICTING FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GENERAL ASSEI'IBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA THAT IS IN CONTENTION IN THIS COURT. F P. O. Bor 2tlai l,J R.ngh, iaonh crrero 2r,cil 1 318 M7 I 2 3 I 5 6 7 8 I t0 11 t2 13 1,1 16 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHCENIX. ARIZONA MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO WAS THETHE REPETITIVENESS. REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE AND TESTIFIED TO THAT. REPRE- SENTATIVE ADAMS, AS I UNDERSTAND-.OR AT LEAST HIS TESTIMOTJY HAS NOT SHOWN HE WAS EVEN ON THE COMMITTEE. WE HAVE STIPULATED TO THE GENESIS OF IT. THE CHRONOLOGY IS ALL SET OUT. MR. LEONARD: WE HAVE HAD NO TESTIMONY AS TO ANY OF THE DETAI LS AS TO HOW THE PLAN EVOLVED, I F THE COURT PLEASE. IF THIS WITNESS KNOWS, I AM ASKING HIM IF HE CAN TESTIFY TO THAT. JUDGE PHi LLI PS :- OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: WELL, THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRED THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO REAPPORTION AFTER EACH FEDERAL DECENNIAL CENSUS. THE SPEAKER APPOINTED CO},II'1ITTEES. THE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE WAS CHARGED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO COME UP WITH SOME PLANS. AND IT SEEMS LIKE WE MET ABOUT EVERY MONTH ON THE NEW PLAN THE ACTUAL PLAN THAT EVOLVED--I TAKE IT THAT IS THE ONE THAT IS THE LAW NOW--IN THE LAST SESSION CAME ABOUT BECAUSE THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD SAID THAT THEY WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH ONE SORT OF FUNNY DISTRICT IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY. MS. I.J I NNER : I OBJECT TO WHAT THE F ?. O.8or 2tl(t LJ Rrblgh. ttonh C.rollh. 27crl 1ri :) 19 Y8 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAID AND MOVE TO STRIKE THAT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED. THE I,JITNESS: I MIGHT ADD WHEN THE !,USTICE DEPARTMENT I{AS--:WE WERE IN CONTACT WITH THEM THROUGHOTJT THI S PROCESS. BY I'IR. LEONARD : LET ME INTERRUPT TO ASK YOU SOME QU::STIONS WITH RESPECT TO THAT. DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN MEETINGS AND NEGOTIATIONS I^/ITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT? YES. AFTER WE PASSED ONE OF THE PLANS--I THI IT WAS THE ONE IN FEBRUARY; IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONE IN OCTOBER--THE SPEAKER ASKED REPRESENTATIVE DAN BLUE AND MYSELF TO GO TO WASHINGTON AND MEET WITH THE REPRE- SENTATIVES OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO EXPLAIN TO THEM THE THEORY BEHIND THE PLAN. . AND ACTUALLY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND MYSELF HAD BEEN THE ONES TO WNITT THAT PLAN AT THE MIDNIGHT HOUR AFTER THE COMMITTEE HAD COI.TE UP WITH ONE THAT WE FELT WAS ENTIRELY UNSATISFACTORY. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE ASKED ME TO HELP HIM GET HIS PLAN ENACTED. AND WE DID. AND THEN AFTER IT WAS ENACTED, THE SPEAKER ASKED US TO GO TO WASHINGTON AND TALK TO THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. AND WE DID. WE HAD A DAY-LONG CONFERENCE WITH THEM. a oN How MANY OCCASIONS DID YOU GO T0 WASHINGTON TO DISCUSS THE QUESTION WITH THE.JUSTiCE DEPARTYENT? - P- O. Bor l'tlot lJ nrhgh. t.onn c.rcr[ 2t6rr i.32( <M9 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 2g 24 25 I O PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THER E WENT A I WENT ONE TIME. I DIDN'T GO THE SECOND TIM WAS A SECOND TRIP WI{ERE A NUMBER OF LEGISLATORS TO h'ASHINGTON. DURING THE COURSE OF THE MEETING THAT YOU WERE PRESENT AT, WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE T,\KE WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS? A HE SAID IN THE LARGER COUNTIES THAT SINGLE- MEMBER DISTRICTS DILUTED THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOTERS. MS. WINNER: OBJECTION AND I4OVE TO STRIKE JUDGE PHI LLI PS: BY MR. LEONARD: OVERRULED. A NOW, THERE CAME A TIME WHEN THE COMMITTEE AND THOSE OF YOU WHO NEGOTIATED WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REACHED AN AGREEMENT I^IITH RESPECT TO THE COVERED COUNTIES I S .THAT ACCURAT E ? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THEN DID YOU SET ABOUT ATTEMPTING TO FINALIZE THE REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO THE NON-COV COUNTIES? A a RESPECT TO ALSO. YES. DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS WITH THAT QUESTION? YES. AND I ATTENDED THE COMMITTEE MEETINGS H P. O, &r 2!16 LJ iaalrli. Nonh C.rolu ,rtll 1,32L Y10 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 n 21 22 2 24 25 PRECISlON REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE PARTICIPATE IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS? PANTS. AUTHOR YES. HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE PARTICI- HE WAS ON THE COMMITTEE AND ACTUALLY WAS THE OF MOST OF THE PLANS THAT WERE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERE WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE TAKE WIT RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH, DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES? MS . I.I I NNER : YOUR HoNOR, I OBJECT. REPRESENTATIVE BLUE LIVES IN WAKE COUNTY. HE IS CLEARLY SUBJECT TO SUBPOENA. IF THE DEFENDANTS WOULD LIKE TO PROVE WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THINKS, THEN THE APPRO- PRIATE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO CALL REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND ASK HI M, NOT TO ASK SOMEBODY ELSE T'/HAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THINKS, THUS DEPRIVING US OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO CROSS-EXAM INE REPRESENTATIVE BLUT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IF MR. ADAMS CAN TESTIFY AS TO HIS DIRECT FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE WHAT POSI- TION I4R. BLUE TOOK ON THI S MATTER, IT SEEMS TO ME IT IS ADMISSIBLE. MS. WINNER: AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT TESTIMONY I S FOR THE TRUTH OF I{HAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGHT. THAT IS, THEY ARE OFFERING I^'HAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE SAID AS EVIDENCE OF WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGH THAT IS, FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER AND FOR NO OTHER F P. O. 0or ,lGt Ll A.bad. Bo.rn C.rolrr 27Crl 'i322 (M11 I 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA REASON, I^JHICH HAS TO BE HEARSAY. MR. LEONARD: JF THE CoURT PLEASE, COUNSELIS POSITION ON THAT IS OBVIOUSLY ERRONEOUS. THIS IS A LEGISLATIVE BODY. LEGISLATORS ACT FROM WHAT THEY PERCEIVE.. AND IN THIS CASE, THE PERCEPTION OF THIS LEGISLATOR, WHO WAS A LEADER IN THE GENERAL ASSEI4BLY, WHO IS WHITE IN A WHITE DOMINATED BODY, I,JHERE THE COMPLAINT IN THI S ACTION CIIARGES DISCRI14INATION BY THIS BODY--THIS LEGISLATORIS PERCEPTION OF WHAT BLACK PEOPLEIS POSITIONS WERE IS ABSOLUTELY MATERIAL. IT IS PROBABLY THE MOST MATERIAL PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS LAWSUIT. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVING MR. REPRESENTATIVE BLUEIS ATTITUDE WELL, WE WILL ADMIT IT ADAI'ISI PERCEPTION OF ON THE MATTER IN ISSUE. AND NOT FOR THE TRUTH OF MS. WINNER: WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGHT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: FOR THE LII,lITED PURPOSE STATED. BY MR. LEONARD: DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION? YES. I CAN GIVE YOU FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE LEGISLATURE HIS ATTITUDE. WHEN REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE MADE THE MOTION TO CARVE OUT BLACK DISTRICTS IN FORSYTH, WAKE AND MECKLEN- BURG COUNTIES AND AS YOU HAVE HEARD, LEFT OUT DURHAM a A F 2. O.8or 2tlat lJ nr||crr. xonn C.rottil zrGil 1,323 |t2 I 2 3 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 1'l 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA COUNTY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE STOOD ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE AND MOVED--MADE A VERY NICE STATEMENT WHY THAT WAS A BAD IDEA--AND MOVED THAT THAT MOTION DO LIE UPON THE TABLE . AND I T WAS OVE RWHE LM I NGI.Y; .AND I MIGHT ADD THAT THE OTHER BLACK IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, MR. CREESY, VOTED WITH MR. BLUE. NOW, WHEN A MEMBER MOVES TO LAY A PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE, WHAT HAPPEI'IS TO IT IF THAT MOTION PREVAILS? A WELL, ir KILLS IT. BUT IT ALSO IS SORT OF-- IT MEANS THAT IT IS NOTWOP.THY OF CONSIDERATION AND FURTI.E DEBATE. IF YOU ARE TJUST AGAINST AN'AMENDMENT, YOU JUST SPEAK AGAINST IT AND LET IT TAKE ITS COURSE. WHEN YOU MOVE THAT IT LAY UPON THE TABLE, THAT MEANS THAT IN YOUR OPINION IT IS SORT OF FRIVOLOUS,AND I5 NOT WORTHY OF FURTHER DEBATE, BECAUSE A MOTION TO LAY UPON THE TABLE CUTS OFF DEBATE. ALSO, WHEN IT PASSES, THEN IT TAKES TWO-THIRDS TO RECONSTOTN IT. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN DAN BLUE? A WELL, HE WAS AN ASSOCIATE IN OUR LAW 1972, I THINK--MAYBE 173. SO IT HAS BEEN OVER A IS DAN BLUE AN AMERICAN WHO IS ALSO MALE ? FIRM IN TEN YEARS. BLACK AND A YES. A WHEN RE PRESENTAT I VES HE IS DID HE I N WAKE FROM ROBESON FIRST RUN FOR COUN TY ? COUNTY. THE HOUSE OF - P. O. Bor irttGl lJ R.htsh. tb.rh C.Dliil 27otl A DA I. -!-.J pZ, M1l 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 1t L2 13 1,{ 15 16 17 18 19 20 2r 22 23 24 25 a PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36',t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A WHEN REPRESENTATIVE BOB FARMER I^/AS APPOINTED TO THE SUPERIOR COURT BENCH, THERE WAS A VACANCY. AND IT WAS TO BE FILLED BY THE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE WILMA--NOW SENATOR WILMA WOODARD_-HAD LINED UP MOST OF THE VOTES.. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AT THAT TIME RAN--WE DISCUSSED THIS, SO I GUESS IT IS ALL RIGHT--IN ORDER TO GET HIS NAME ASSOCIATED WITH THE OFFICE. i AND SENATOR WOODARD GOT THE VOTE OF THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. HE RAN THE NEXT TIME, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN IN 1978 A BY ''HE, '' DO YOU MEAN REPRESENTAT I VE BLUE ? A REPRESENTATIVE BLUE. A WAS THAT HIS FIRST RACE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE? A RIGHT. AND HE RAN WITHIN 1OO VOTES OF THE SIX WINNERS IN THE PRII.4ARY. I THINK HE RAN SIXTH-.I MEAN SEVENTH. AND REPRESENTATIVE MUSSTUWTTTTT RAN EIGHTH. NOW, IN THAT ELECTION I THINK THERE WERE FIVE INCUMBENTS; OR THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SIX. BUT IT WAS NOT AN OPEN FIELD. HE RAN AGAIN IN 1982. NO. EXCUSE ME. IN 178 HE RAN SEVENTH FOR SIX SEATS. AND IN '80 HE RAN AND WON THE SIXTH SEAT AND WAS RE_ELECTED IN 1982. A WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHER CANDIDATES IN THE PRIMARY IN THE 1982 ELECTION? A HE RAN FIRST. F P. O. Bd 2alB u R.blon, Ndh c.roh. ?rotr _'d 325 (M 14 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 t9 n 2l 22 2g 24 25 PRECISlON REPOBTING AND TRANSCFIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A AND WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE CANDIDATES IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU RECALL? A HE WAS EITHER SECOND OR. THIRD. I THINK HE WAS SECOND. I THINK RUTH COOK WAS FIRST. AND HE WAS SECOND. BUT I AM NOT SURE. a HAVE yOU HAD OCCASIONS TO WORK CLOSELY WITH REPRESENTATIVE BLUE SINCE THE TWO OF YOU HAVE SERVED IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY? A YES. HE SITS RIGHT BESIDE ME. A HAVE YOU WORKED WITH HIM ON LEGISLATION? A ALL THE TIME--ALMOST EVERY DAY. A WHAT OPPORTUNITIES HAVE YOU HAD TO OBSERVE REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN THERE WERE ISSUES WHICH HAD SOME RACIAL ASPECTS TO THEM? A WELL, THERE ARE NOT MANY OF THOSE THAT COME UP BUT. WHEN THEY DO, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS ALWAYS IN THE FOREFRONT REPRESENTING THE--AND THE REST OF THE DELEGA. TION EXPECTED THAT. HE WAs THE SPOKESMAN ON THOSE TYPE OF I SSUES. a SPoKESMAN FOR WHOM? A SPOKESMAN FOR OPPOSITION ON THAT ISSUE. A DID YOU AT ANY TIME OBSERVE THAT REPRESENTA- TIVE BLUE wAS INTIMIDATED WHEN IT CAME TO ISSUES THAT HAD ANY RACIAL SIGNI FICANCE? A ABSOLUTELY NOT--JUST THE OPPOSITE. F P. O. &r i|lt(! LJ R.blch, Nonh Crrofln. 2r!tl fi26 M15 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 0q 23 24 25 o (X PRECISION REPORTING AND THANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A DID YOU HEAR REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE'S TESTIMONY IN THIS COURTROOM A FEW DAYS AGO? YES; I DI D. a WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT TESTTMONY WITH RESPECT TO.THE QUESTION OF INTIMIDATION OF BLACK LEGIS- LATORS IN THE LEGISLATURE ON ISSUES THAT HAVE RACIALLY IDENT I FIABLE CONNOTAT IONS? MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO REPRESENTA_ TIVE ADAMS TESTIFYING AS TO THE STATE OF }4IND OF OTHER LEGISLATORS OTHER THAN PERHAPS REPRESENTATIVE BLUE. JUDGE PHi LLIPS: THE WITNESS: OVERRULED. IT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE- THAT LEGISLATORS FROM, AS REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE CALLED IT, MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS WERE INTIMIDATED IN ANY WAY IN REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS OF BLACK PEOPLE AS THEY PERCE I VED I T. THEY WERE .JUST AS OUTSPOKEN AS MEMBERS FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS--IN SOME CASES, MORESO. BY MR. LEONARD: - a I ASK yOU TO LOOK AT DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 55 AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT? (ornrnoRNTS EXHIBIT NO. 55 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. ) A YES. THAT WAS AN AD THAT WAS CIRCULATED THROUGHOUT WAKE COUNTY BY THE WAKE COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY IN 19__EITHER '76 OR 178. I THINK IT WAS IN'78.o - P. O. lor 2AlA lJ R.bioh. Nodli c.reuil zrctl -! i, ') oaoQ I M16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA A IS THIS THE ORIGINAL OF THAT? A THAT IS IT. MR. LEONARD: IF COUNSEL HAS NO OBJECTION, THIS IS A FRAMED COPY THAT CAME FROI4 THE WITNESSI LIBRARY. AND I WONDER IF COUNSEL WOULD AGREE TO ACCEPT A PHOTOCOPY OF IT? MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO OBTJECTION TO THE PHOTOCOPY RATHER THAN THE ORIGINAL. I DO OBJECT TO THE EXHIBIT. IF YOU ARE OFFERING IT, I WILL STATE THE REASON. ARE YOU OFFERING THE EXHIBIT? MR. LEONARD: I DONIT THINK I HAVE QUALIFIED IT YET. I WILL TRY TO. BY MR. LEONARD: a DID yOU COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE ORTGINAL OF THAT DURING A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN? . A YES. I GOT IT IN MY NEWSPAPER. )GE BRITT: I NOTICE THAT IS NOTJUT LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, COUNSEL. MR. LEONARD: IT IS NOT, YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE IT CAME TO OUR ATTENTION ONLY WHEN I.IE INTERVIEWE REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS AFTER PLAINTIFFS BEGAN PUTTING IN THESE POLITICAL ADVERTISING WITH PICTURES ON THEM. WE HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO ANTICIPATE THAT SPECIFICALLY. I I,IOULD OFFER EXHIBIT 55. MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, DEFENDANTS F P. O, Bor 2tlAl LJ Rd.toh. tao6 crroilil 27cl r_328 M17 I 2 3 I 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 N 2L 22 23 24 25 o o PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA HAVE HAD ACCESS TO REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS FROM THE ENTIRE PENDENCY OF THTS LAWSUIT. THE FACT THAT THEY DID NOT TALK TO HIM TO FIND OUT WHAT EXHIBITS HE MIGHT HAVE UNTIL THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY SEEMS TO TOTALLY SUBVERT THE PURPOSE OF THE PRE_TRIAL ORDER. NOT ONLY HAVE I BEEN HANDED THIS EXHIBIT YESTERDAY, OI.ILY BECAUSE I NOTICED SINCE THE LAST EXHIBIT I^'AS 56 THAT THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A 55 ALSO THAT I HADNIT RECEIVED, BUT THIS MORNING I HAVE BEEN HANDED A WHOLE STACK OF OTHER EXHIBITS FROM REPRESENTATIVE ADA}4S WHICH i HAD NO NOTICE OF BEFORE THIS MORNING. NOW, NONE OF THESE EXHIBITS ARE OF RECENT ORIGIN. THIS IS FROM 1976. THE OTHERS HAVE DATES BETWEEN tg7 G Ar.rD 1g 8 2 . NorlE oF THEM wERE puBL i snEo LAST WEEK. IF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER HAS ANY MEANING, IT SHOULD MEAN THAT YOU MUST TA:K TO YOUR WITNESSES IN ADVANCE AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR EXHIBITS ARE AND GIVE THE OTHER SIDE A COPY. THAT IS THE FIRST OBJECTION. ON SUBSTANTIVE GROUNDS, I FAIL TO SEE THE RELEVANCE OF AN AD T.JHICH SHOWS..AND UNLESS THERE IS SOME TESTIMONY THAT SAYS WIJY THI S AD I S EVEN I4ARGINALLY RELATED TO THIS CASE, I CANIT IMAGINE THAT IT IS RELE- VANT. IT IS ALSO HEARSAY.. IF IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ESTABL I SH I NG I^/HAT THE REPUBL I CAN PARTY THI NKS, THEN THAT I S HEARSAY. - P. O. Bor 2tlali Ll R.r.rgn. Nonh c.rol[ 27!il t 32S MlB 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 9 r0 11 12 13 14 l6 l6 17 18 19 n 2l 22 23 24 oE PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MR. LEONARD: MAY I BE HEARD? THE PLAINTIFF HAS INTRODUCED INTO THIS CASE THE TENUOUS PROPOSITION THAT THE USE OF PICTURES IN CAMPAIGN ADS IN NORTH CAROLINA IS A PHENOMENON THAT WHITES USE WHEN THEY ARE RUNNING AGAINST BLACKS IN ORDER TO INTRODUCE RACIAL OVERTONES INTO THE CAMPAIGN. NOW, I HAVE A STACK OF I DON' T KNOW HOW MANY EXHIBITS HERE THAT THIS WITNESS, WHO HAS BEEN A LONGTIME PARTICIPANT IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AT LEAST IN WAKE COUNTY, HAS COLLECTED. THIS ALL CAME UP DURING THE DIR TESTIMONY BY THE PLAINTIFF. I DONI T INTEND TO OFFER THE REST OF THESE ADS. I OFFER THEM ONLY TO PROVE THAT IN POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS IN THIS STATE, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL--INDEED, IT IS USUAL-- FOR THE OPPOSITION TO PUBLISH PICTURES OF ITS OPPONENTS-- THAT THAT SHOULD NOT BE PERCEIVED TO BE A RACIAL PRACTICE THAT IT IS COMMON PRACTICE. NOW, IF COUNSEL-WANTS TO STIPULATE TO THAT, I^IE CAN END THIS, WHICH IS A PERIPHERAL--I ADMIT A PERIPHERAL ARGUMENT. BUT IT HAS BEEN INJECTED INTO THE CASE IN ORDER TO BRING EMOTION AND PREJUDICE INTO THIS RECORD. THAT IS I.JHY SHE PUT IT IN HERE. .JUDGE BRI TT: ADDRE S S RAISED, COUNSEL. YOU HAVENIT TALKED AT PRE-TRIAL ORDER AND YOUR LACK OF MEETING THE ISSUE SHE ALL ABOUT THE THE REQUIREMENTS - P. O. Bor Urd LJ R.hroh. xonh C.roiln. zroil 133 0 M1g I 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 l6 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 2g 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA OF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, I,IHICH IS THE GROUNDS oF HER OBLJECTION. MR. LEONARD: WELL, WITH RESPECT To THAT, IF THE COURT PLEASE, WE SIMPLY DID NOT ANTICIPATE THAT THIS KIND OF EVIDENCE WAS AVAILABLE UNTIL COUNSEL FORGED INTO THIS IN THE CASE IN CHIEF. JUDGE BRITT: PRE-TRIAL EXHIBITS THAT WERE MR. LEONARD: WITNESS DID NOT REALIZE THAT UNTIL HE HEARD IT AND SAW IT IT IS MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING. PRE.JUDICIAL ISSUE. DID YOU NOT REVIEW HER MARKED AND GIVEN TO YOU? YES; WE DID. BUT THIS HE HAD THAT KIND OF EVIDENCE IN THE COURTROOM. I THINK BUT IT IS OBVIOUSLY A WE PLEADED WITH THE COURT NOT TO LET THOSE EXHIBITS IN TO BEGIN WITH ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE HEARSAY AND THAT THEY DONTT PROV; ANYTHING. THE COURT LET THEM IN. NOW, WHAT I AM SAYING, IF YOU ARE GOING TO LET THAT KII.ID OF STUFF IN THE RECORD WHICH HAS PREJUDICI TENDENCIES, THEN LET US REBUT IT. .JUDGE PH I LL I PS : DO I UNDERSTAND THAT COUNSEL HAS INDICATED AN INTENTION ONLY TO OFFER ONE OF THESE? MR. LEONARD: YES, YOUR HONOR. JUDGE PHILLIPS: THEN T'IE WILL ADMIT THE ONE THAT IIAS NOT'/ BEEN TENDERED. - P. O. Bor 2tt63 lJ i.breh, xcrrh C.6[m 270r'l i_33 :M2 0 (XX o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA (oenrNoaNrs EXHIBIT No. 55 WA RECEIVED IN rvIorNcr. ) BY MR. LEONARD: q NOW, REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DID I ASK YOU IF WHEN YOU AND I DISCUSSED THIS MATTER WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD-_OR DID YOU VOLUNTEER TO ME THAT YOU HAD A FILE OF CAMPAIGN ADS GOING BACK FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME? YES, MR. LEONARD. WHEN I HEARD A WITNESS--I BELIEVE HIS NAME WAS LUEBKE--TESTIFY THAT THE USE OF YOUR OPPONENTIS PICTURE IN THE PRESS WAS UNUSUAL IN NORTH CAROLINA, I SAID I HAD SOME THINGS OR EXAMPLES OF WHERE YOUR OPPONENTS DO USE IT. AND THAT IS WHEN I BROUGHT YOU THESE. AND I BELIEVE WE DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT IT IS A COMMONPLACE PRACTICE TO RUN COI'4PARISON ADS IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS WHERE YOU HAVE THE PICTURE OF YOU AND YOUR OPPONEI,IT. AND T.HEN YOU HAVE A CHECKLIST. AND OF COURSE, YOU PICK OUT THE GOoD POINTS. YOU ASK THE RIGhIT QUESTIONS. AND YOU CHECK YOUR QUALIFICATIONS. AND YOUR OPPONENTIS YOU HAVE BLANK. AND ITHAT IS A COMMON PRACTICE. IT COMES UP IN ALMOST EVERY ELECTION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. AND IN REVIEWING YOUR FILES, DID YOU FIND A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES OF THAT PRACTICE? A NO. THI S WAS THE ONLY EXAMPLE I HAD OF THAT PRACT I CE. THE OTHER MATTERS I N THE F I LES 'TIERE EXAMPLES F 2. O. Bor 2tl(l LJ Rrnoh. xo,rn c.6xm 2?!tt L332 'M' 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l ,9 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA OF RUNNING COALITIONS INCLUDING BLACKS AND WHITES. A BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE CANDIDATES? A YES. A HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRACTICE OF RUNNING PICTURES OF THE OPP.OSITION USED IN OTHER CAMPAIGNS? A YES. IT HAPPENS IN ALMOST EVERY CAMPAIGN. IT IS A COMMONPLACE PRACTICE IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS TO RUN THESE COMPARISON ADS WITH THE PICTURES OF YOUR OPPONENT IN THEM. a Do you HAVE AN OPTNION AS TO WHETHER REPRE- SENTATIVES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FROM MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN REPRESENTATIVES FROM S IT.,IGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS? A WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE A DELEGATION THAT IS COHESIVE--THAT CAMPAIGNS TOGETHER AND GETS ELECTED TOGETHER--YOU SPEAK AS ONE VOICE. O*' IF YOU HAVE.-IN THE LARGER COUNTIES SUCH AS FORSYTH AND MECKLENBURG AND WAKE, IF YOU CAN COME UP WTTH SIX VOTES OR SEVEN VOTES OR FIVE VOTES OR EIGHT VOTES, IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE--THAT IS A SIZABLE BLOCK OF VOTES THAT YOU CAN DELiVER. A WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS IN WAKE COUNTY? A WELL, IT VARIES. THE REGISTERED VOTERS RUNS AROUND 14 TO 15 TO 16 PERCEI.IT. I THINK IT HAS BEEN AS - P. O.3or uta! u R.brgn, Nonh C.,o[D 270il 1333 v22 I 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l .rq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, AilZONA HIGH AS 18. THEN IT DROPS DOWN TO 12. AND THEN THERE IS ANOTHER REGISTRATION DRIVE. AND IT GOES BACK UP TO 16 OR SO. IT HOVERS AROUND 16 PERCENT, I THTNK. a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION IS RESPONSIVE TO THE BLACK CITIZENS OF WAKE COUNTY? MS. WINNER: OB.JECTION. .JUDGE PHI LL I PS : OVERRULED. THE WI TNESS: WELL, I.,E CERTAINLY HOPE THAT WE ARE. BY MR. LEONARD: A CAN YOU GIVE EXAMPLES OF THE WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION SUPPORTING LEGISLATION THAT WAS OF SPECIFIC INTEREST TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY? A YES. WHEN THE BLACKS ASKED US TO ABOLISH THE.SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS NON THE SCHOOL BOARD'-AS YOU HEARD MR. MALONE TESTIFY--ON THE GROUNDS THAT THAT DILUTED THE VOTING INFLUENC€ OF BLACK CITIZENS, VJE INTRODUCED A BILL OVER THE OBJECTION OF A NUMBER OF OTHER ELEMENTS IN THE COUNTY TO SET UP THE MECHANISM TO GO TO AT-LARGE ELECTIONS FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD. THAT WAS SPECI FICALLY AT THE RECIUEST OF THE BLACK ORGANIZATIONS--THE FOUR BLACK ORGANIZATIONS: THE RALEIGH-WAKE CITIZENS ASSOCIATION, THE BLACK I',OMENIS POLITICAL CAUCUS, THE V'AKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC BLACK CAUCUS F P. O. Bor i,ttct LJ tl.brlh. Nod C.roltn. 27Glt 3"334y23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 fi 18 19 20 2t ,., 23 24 25 .) PRECISION REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AND THE FOURTH ONE, IVHI CH MET TOGETHER. MR. WI NLEY WAS PRESIDING. MR. MALONE WAS THERE. SUBSTANTIALLY EVERY BLACK LEADER IN I.IAKE COUNTY WAS THERE. AND THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING IVAS TO ASK US TO DO AI^'AY WITH S INGLE_MEMBER DI STRI CTS IN 1^IAKE COUNTY FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD BECAUSE IT LESSENED THE INFLUENCE OF THE BLACK VOTERS. AND WE INTRODUCED THAT LEGISLATION AND HAVE IT PENDING. A I S THERE A BLACK CAUCUS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES? YE 5. DO THEY AT TIMES GENERATE PROPOSALS TO THE LEGISLATURE OUT OF THAT CAUCUS? YES. A CAN YOU RECALL ANY SUCH ISSUES IN THE LAST TI'JO. SESSIONS? A YES. THEIR MAIN PROGRAM WAS THE VOTER REGISTRATION BATTLES THAT CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN REFERRED TO THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED. AND I INTRODUCED ONE OF THOSE. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND I AND BALLANCE WORKE ON THOSE II.I THE HOUSE ELECTION LAWS COMI4ITTEE. AND WE GOT ALL THREE OF THEM PASSED. WILMA WOODARD, OUR SENATOR, I,JAS INTRODUCING THEM IN THE SENATE AND HANDLED THE BILLS II.I THE SENATE. THERE WERE THREE SPECIFIC PROPOSALS. ONE WAS VOTER a P. O.60r l'tlcl lJ erl.lofr, Nonh c.lM zr6rr iJ 4,)tr -,'- c.rt r-, u '.M24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 12 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r ar., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 83?.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA REGISTRATION IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES. THE SECOND WAS TO HAVE A VOTER REGISTRAR AT EACH HIGH SCHOOL. AND THE THIRD WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES LICENSE EXAMINERS GIVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO PEOPLE WHEN T}1EY RENEW THEIR DRIVERIS LICENSE TO REGISTER TO VOTE OR CHANGE THEIR REGISTRATION. AND ALL THREE OF THOSE PASSE A WAS THERE ANY LEGISLATION IN THE HEALTH FIELD THAT CAME OUT OF THE CAUCUS? A WELL, I DONIT KNOW THAT IT WAS AN OFFICIAL ACTION OF THE CAUCUS. BUT REPRESENTATIVE LOCKES FROM ROBESON COUNTY INTRODUCED A BI LL ON TI-{E S I CKLE CELL ANEMIA FUNDS-_TO HAVE FUNDS FOR SICKLE CELL--WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS PECULIARLY APPLICABLE TO BLACKS. I THiNK ONLY BLACKS GET SICKLE CELL ANEMIA. AND THEY WERE INTERTT,STED IN THAT_-THE CAUCUS wAS. AND THAT WAS PLACED IN rnr auoerr. IN FACT, l^lE TOOK THE FUNDS OUT OF THE GOVERNORIS BLOCK GRANT FUNDS AND FUNDED $2Sr,000 FoR SICKLE cELL ANEMIA. A DID ALL OF THIS LEGISLATION WHICH YOU REFERRE TO BECOME LAW IN NORTH CAROLINA? YES. IT IS LAW NOW. DID THE I./AKE COUNTY DELEGATION SUPPORT THAT LEGISLATION? A YES. THEY THEY ALL SUPPORTED IT. SUPPoRTED THE--YEAH, TO A MA!'J. I DONrT--\./ELL, I SAY rrMANil AS--- P. O. Bor 2ats LI R.btorr, Nonh c.roril 2r6t l :i.3 3 6 t12 5 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L (r., 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA ( T rurrR PoS I NG ) ItRrur I ND ? MANKIND. I DONIT RECALL ANY MEMBER OF THE WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION VOTING AGAINST ANY OF THOSE VOTER REGISTRATION BILLS. AND THE SICKLE CELL ANEMIA FUNDS WERE IN THE MAIN APPROPRIATIONS BILL. AND NO WAKE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVE VOTED AGAINST THAT. WE DONTT TEND TO VOTE AGAINST A PROPOSAL OF ONE OF OUR MEMBERS. IT IS VERY RARE WHEN I/,E DO THAT. WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIA- T IONS COMMITTEE? A I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE BASE BUDGET. AND BILLY WATKINS FROM GRANVILLE COUNTY IS CHAIRMAN OF THE EXPAN- SION BUDGET. THE BLOCK GRANT CAME UNDER THE BASE BUDGET SECTION. A TELL THE COUR.T WHAT YOUR EXPERI ENCE I S WITH RESPECT TO CAMPAIGNS IN VJAKE COUNTY ANO THE QUESTION OF BLACKS AND WHITES CAMPAIGNING TOGETHER IN THE VARIOUS RACIAL NEIGHBORHOODS THAT EXIST. A WELL, THE PRIMARY IS ONE 'THING'.. THE GENERAL ELECTION IS ANOTHER. OF COURSE, IN THE PRIMARY WE ALT''AY HAVE 20 PEOPLE RUNNING FOR SIX SEATS. AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A VACANCY, THERE IS GOING TO BE A T,IHOLE L.OT OF PEOPLE RUNNING, EVEN IF THERE IS JUST ONE VACANCY. AND OF COURSE, WE ARE ALL UP FOR ELECTION. .Jusr BECAUSE you ARE AN INcUMBENT DoESt'lrT MEAN THAT You F P. O. Box ztla lJ tuhlgh, Nodh C.rorh. 27orr L33i |{l26 1 2 3 a 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .r., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTlNG AND TRANSCRIBING. ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA ARE GOING TO GET RE-ELECTED. SO WE ALL HAVE TO CAMPAIG A NUMBER OF TIMES WE GO IN PAIRS. AND SOME- TIMES THREE OF US WILL BE INCUI4BENTS. I KNOW RUTH COOK AND DAN BLUE WENT OUT IN THE COUNTY A LOT TOGETHER OR MUSSELWHITE AND BLUE. I o,,*I, DO AS MUCH AS I USED TO IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN BECAUSE I DIDNIT HAVE TIME. BUT THEY GO AROUND IN PAIRS SOME, BUT NOT SIX INCUMBENTS BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE OFFENSIVE IN THE PRIMARY THAT WOULD OFFEND DEMOCRATIC VOTERS. IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, WE CAMPAIGN PURELY AS A TEAM. IT IS A TEAM THING. WE GO TO ALL SECTIONS OF THE COUNTY_-THE SIX OF US TOGETHER. WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN BUS THAT GOES THROUGH THE COUNTY, STOPPING AT ALL PLACES IN THE COUNTY. WE ALWAYS END THE TOUR AT A BLACK CHURCH. AI'ID WE SING. AND THAT IS ALV/AYS A HIGHLIGHT OF THE CAMPAICN TOUR FOR ME. BUT WE CAMPAIGN IN ALL COMMUNITIES WITH ALL RACES AND NOT SPECIFICALLY AS BLACKS OR WHITES. A WOULD YOU FOR THE RECORD PLEASE IDENTIFY THE RACE OF SOME OF THOSE LEGISLATORS THAT YOU MENTI,ONED? ..A WELL, MUSSELWHITE--THE DELEGATION IS MUSSEL- WHITE, FUSSELL, COOK, ADAMS AND STAMEY, WHO ARE WHITE; AND BLUE, WHO IS BLACK. AND THEN THE SENATE DELEGATION IS .JOE .JOHNSON, BILL STATON FROM LEE COUNTY AND WILMA WOODWARD. THEY ARE ALL WHITE. A HAVE YOU PUBLICLY SUPPORTED AND WORKED FOR F P. O.8or 2al6 lJ R.brofi. Hoilh C.Erm 27cil L33t M27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BLACK CANDIDATES IN WAKE COUNTY? A YES. I PUBLICLY SUPPORTED JOHN WINTERS !.,i:.I=ltl HE RAN IN 1961. JUDGE PHI LL I PS : TESTIFIED TO THIS EARLIER. BY MR. LEONARD: AS I RECALL, HE HAS YOU MENTIONED BEFORE THAT REPRESENTATIVE LOCKES I.JAS INTERESTED IN A SICKLE CELL ANEMIA BILL. WHA IS HIS RACE? AND I,'HERE IS HE FROM? HE IS A BLACK FROM ROBESON COUNTY. A DID THE LEGISLATURE TAKE ANY ACTION ON A PROPOSAL WITH RESPECT TO REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING? A YES. THIS FIRST BILL WE PASSED THIS LAST SESSION WAS MAKING MARTIN LUTHER KINGIS BIRTHDAY AN OFFICIAL STATE HOLIDAY. WHO AUTHORED THAT LEGISLATION? I THINK REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WAS THE PRINCIPAL SPONSOR. A NOI.J, THERE HAS BEEN TEST IMONY WI TH RESPECT TO A PROPOSAL BY YOU AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING OR BY REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WITH RESPECT TO AMENDING THE RUNOFF PRIMARY LAW--THE MAJORITY VOTE PRIMARY LAW-_IN NORTH CAROLINA. WOULD YOU JUST TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS WITH RESPECT TO THAT LEGISLA- TION? A P, O. Aor 2it(l l, Rrbroh. Nodh c.Dl[ 2r6ir 1.33r (M2 8 I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 oE o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457], PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O. Bor 2aldl lJ R.t.roh, Nodh c.rolh. 276tt A WELL, WE WERE INTERESTED IN CHANGING THE SECOND PRIMARY REQUIREMENT AND GETTING SOME SORT OF A SYSTEM WHEREBY IF SOMEBODY WAS WAY AHEAD OR GOT A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE A SECOND PRIMARY. REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING DREI}l THE LEGISLATION AND HAD, I THINK, STARTED OFF WITH A 4O PERCENT REqUIRE- MENT AND BROUGHT IT TO ME. AND I UNDEP.STOOD HE VIAS GOING TO GET A NUMBER OF PEOPLE TO SIGN IT. BUT ONCE HE GOT-- AFTER I SIGNED IT--AND I AGREED TO BE A CO_SPONSOR, NOT .JUST A SIGNER OF THE BI LL. BUT WE WERE THE CO-PRINCIPAL INTRODUCERS. IT I,JAS A SPAULDING-ADA}4S BiLL AS OPPOSED TO SPAULDING WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE. THEN HE INTRODUCED IT. AND THEN WE MADE SOI.4E--I STARTED WORKING ON THE SPEAKER TO SEE WHAT SUPPOR WE.COULD GET FROM HIM AND:IN UIruINE UP SUPPORT IN THE ' COMMITTEE. WE MADE SOI4E GOOD PROGRESS. AND IT WAS UNDER_ STOOD WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO AMEND IT SOME BSCAUSE OF THE PECULIAR POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MIGHT COME UP IN THE NEXT DEMOCRATIC PRIMAP.Y FOR GOVERNOR--THAT WE WERE.GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE IT MORE RESTRICTIVE. AND SO THEREFORS, \,/E UIERE TALKING ABOUT 45 PERCENT I,JI TH A 1O SPREAD. AND THE SPEAKER LARGELY SAI D THAT HE WOULD SUPPORT TII,AT. AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING L34( t1?-9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ACTION THAT WOULD BE DESIGNED TO GET THE BILL PASSED. IT WAS AS IF--YOU KNOW, HE DIDNIT TAKE THE NORMAL ACTIONS THAT YOU TAKE IN THE LEGISLATURE TO GIVE AND TAKE AND COME UP I'IITH SOMETHING TI15Y COULT) SUPPORT. AND HE WAS JUST ADAMANT AT THE ORIGINAL PROPO- SAL. AND I T WENT DO}JN. REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR T.IOT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTFIICTS IN MECKLEN- BURG, WAKE, FORSYTH AND DURHAM COUNTIES IN I..IORTH CAROLINA DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUI.IITY TO ELECT THE CANDIDATES OF THEiR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY? YE S. WHAT IS THAT OPINION? SINGLE--- MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WAKE COUNTY IN THAT ANSWER. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL WORKINGS OF MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH OR DURHAM OR I,,ILSON- EDGECOMBE-NASH COUNTIES. HE HAS TESTIFIED AT GREAT LENGTH ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN WAKE COUNTY. HE HAS TESTIFIED TO NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL SITUATIONS OF THE OTHER COUNTIES. .JUDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T YOU ASK ANY QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE, I F HE HAS ANY, OF THOSE OTHER PLACES? A A o F P. O. 8or 2tlcl lJ R.hloh. iaodh CrTo[nt 2r!I "13 41Ml0 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 l7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MR. LEONARD: I DID, YOUR HONOR. I TRIED TO QUALIFY IT EARLY IN HIS TESTII'4ONY WITH R.ESPECT TO HI S STATEIIII DE EXPER I ENCE. BUT I WI LL DELVE A L I TTLE MORE DEEPLY. .BY MR. LEONARD: A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ARE YOU FAI.IILIAR V,lITH THE REPRESENTATIVES WHO REPRESENT DURHAM AND FORSYTH AND MECKLENBURG COUNTIES? A YES. A HAVE YOU OBSERVED THOSE DELEGATIONS AND THEIR ACTiVITIES WITH RESPECT TO LEGISLATION SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE? A YE S . I HAVE HAD LONG CONVERSAT I ONS I.J I TH MEMBERS OF THOSE DELEGATIONS ON THIS VERY SUB.JECT, AS BETWEEN MULT I _I4E14BER AND S I NGLE-MEMBER DI STR ICTS . a I.,HAT HAS BEEN YOUR OASTRVATION lWITH RESPECT TO THE RELATIVE SIMILARITY OR NON-SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE . POLITICAL SITUATION IN WAKE. COUNTY AND IN THE OTHER THREE COUNTIES? A llELL, YOU I-IAVE THE SAME PROPOSITIOl',1 TO DIFFERING DEGREES. I I4EAN, OTHER COUNTIES HAVE DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP AND GEOGRAPHY. BUT THE PP.INCIPLE--THE BASIC QUESTION IS THE SAME IN ALL THOSE COUNTIES. MS. I'II NNER: I RENEW MY OP,TJ ECT I ON AND REQUEST A VOIR DIRE OF THE WITNESS. F P. O. aor 26t63 lJ A.bhh, Nonh c..olh. 27!!r i34 iM31 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 99 23 24 25 o XX o PRECISTON REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA LJUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, YOU MAY VOIR DIRE THE WITNESS. VOIR DIRE 9:45 A. M. . BY MS. WINNER: A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A HAVE I CAI.,IPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE? I HAVE NEVER CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY. A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANYBODY ELSEIS CAMPAIGN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN I.,IECKLENBURG COUNTY? A NO--JUST STATEWIDE--TYPE THINGS. A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY STATE\{IDF. OFFICIALIS CAMPAIGN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A ONLY IN A STATEWIDE CAPACITY. a oNLY SITTI.NG HERE rN lVarr COUNTY? A WELL, I HAVE BEEN TO MECKLET.IBURG COUNTY WHEN WE HAD RALLIES AND THINGS.- a You woulD Go IN FOR AN HOUR OR TWO? A I HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE PRECINCT WORK IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY FOR LEGISLATORS AS I HAVE IN WAKE COUNTY. A HAVE YOU EVER MET WITH THE MECKLEI\IBURG COUNTY BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS? A NO. F P. O. Bor 26lGl lJ Rrnoh, ttodh c.rch, 2rou -! 4lrjti .P13 2 1 2 3 4 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .), 23 24 OR 6 6 o PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A MEETING OF THE MECKLENBURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE? A NO. a HAVE yOU EVER GONE TO ANy COALTTION MEETiNG rN MECKLENBURG COUNTY W I TH CAi.ID I DATES OR VOTER S ? A NO. JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, WE ARE GOING TO ADMIT HIS ANSI^JER TO THE QUESTION THAT WAS LAST PUT TO HIM. AND YOU CAN EXPLORE EVERYTHING YOU ARE NOW EXPLORII ON CROSS_EXAMINATION. AND WE HAVE YOUR OBJECTION IN THE RECORD. IT SI:EMS TO ME YOU HAVE GONE BEYOND VOIR DIRING HIM. MS. WINNER: I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO SHOW H'I S OPPORTUN I TY TO OBSERVE THE PROCESS . JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE I^'ILL TAKE HIS OPII!ION IN THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT rO r-rrm. AND THEt'l YOU CAN EXPLORE THAT IN DETAIL ON CROSS-EXAMINATION. D I R E c r c[.];fi.I>' N A r I o N e:45 A'M' BY MR. LEONARD: A DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION? A THE QUESTION WAS DO I HAVE AN OPINION A.S TO TiIE EFFECT ON-*- a (ITTERPOSING) LET ME RESTATE IT SO THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THAT YOU DID HAVE AN OPINi - P. O, 8or i8r{u lJ R.hloh. Nonh C]ortr. 27crt 134<Mll 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 14 16 16 L7 18 19 20 2l crq 23 24 25 XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AS TO WII[THER OR NOT SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN MECKLEN) BURG, FORSYTH, DURHAI'I AND WAKE COUNT I ES I N NORTH CAROL INA DENIED BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDI- DATES OF THEIR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. i NOW ASK YOU: VJHAT IS THAT OPINION? IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT CARVII.IG OUT A SINGLE- MEMBER BLACK GHETTO DISTRICT, IT UNQUESTIONABLY HAS THE EFFECT OF DILUTING THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOI'ERS IN THAT COUNTY. IT IS AXIOMATIC THAT IF THEY CANNOT VOTE BUT FOR ONE LEGISLATOR, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO I.IAVE ANY INFLUENCE OVER THE OTHER FIVE OR SIX. DID YOU SUPPORT MULTi-MEMBE!'. DISTRICTS FOR THOSE FOUR COUNTiES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WITH THE INTENTION TO DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THE IR CHOICE IN THOSE DISTRICTS? , A MR. LEONAR.D, }4Y RECORD I S TO ENSURE THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE INFLUENCE THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE POLITICAL ACTIVITY. AND I VOTED AGA{NST SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS TO ENSURE THAT BLACK PEOPLE CONTINUED TO HAVE THAT INFLUENCE MR. LEONARD: COULD I HAVE .JUST A MOI.,IENT, PLEASE ? (PAUSE. ) THAT IS ALL I HAVE. CROSS_EXAM INATION 9:47 A.l.1. F P. O. Bor 2ltB lJ Rd.lsn, Nonh C.ro[n. A7!il 134 rMl4 I a, 3 1 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r 22 2 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BY MS. WINNER: \ A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY BLACK PEOPLs IN DURHAM COUNTY HAVE YOU DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS I^/ITH OTHER THAN REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING? A WELL, THROUGHOUT THE YEARS DURHAM UIAS IN OUR CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, I WAS COUNTY CHAIRMAN AND ACTIVE IN THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT PARTICIPATION. SO I HAVE DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS AT GREAT LENGTH WITH PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY--LAVONIA ALLISON. A DID YOU TALK VJITH LAVONIA ALLISON YESTERDAY IN THE COURTROOI{ OR IN THE HALL? A a oH, YE S. DID SHE TELL YOU THAT DURHAM DO NOT HAVE GOOD DURHAM COUNTY ? YEAH. AND I TOLD HER SHE THOUGHT THAT BLACK ACCESS TO THE POLITICALPEOPLE IN PROCESS IN .A M I STAKEN. I THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS DIDNIT YOU TELL-HER THAT SHE SHOULD TAKE CARE OF DURHAM AND YOU I^JOULD TAKE CARE OF WAKE? A WELL, r SArD THAT rN A LrrrLE Brr OF rmpirrr THAT SOMEONE FROM DURHAM COUNTY THAT HAS NOT HAD ANYWHERE NEAR THE RECORD OF INVOLVING BLACKS IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS SHOULD COME OVER HERE AND TELL US WHAT I''E SHOULD DO IN WAKE COUNTY, WHERE WE HAVE ELECTED BLACKS CONSIS- TENTLY BY INVOLViNG EVERYBODY IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AS - P. O. gor 2tlB lJ nlhbh. Iodn C.ioriM 276I .L?, /"8 .Ml5 1 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 90 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779 3619 876.457]| PHOENIX, ARIZONA OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY DO INI DURHAM. A AND SO YOU THINK THAT SOMEBODY FROM DURHAM SHOULD NOT BE INTERFERING WITH THE POLITICS IN WAKE C OUNTY ? A I DONIT THINK THAT SHE IS QUALIFIED TO COME OVER HERE--_ a (tNrrRposrNG) oo you THINK THAT SOMEBODY iN DUqHAM COUNTY--- A (rNrrRp0sING) v.trLL, ,IF I couLD ANSWER--- UDGE PHiLLIPS: (INTERPOSTNE) LET IIIM FINISH HIS ANSWER. THE WITNESS: I DONIT THII.,IK SHE IS QUALIFIED IN THE LACK OF SUCCESS THAT SHE HAS HAD IN DURHAM COUNTY WHEN SHE HAS BEEN THE COUNTY CHAIRMAN. HER POLICIES IIAVE RESULTED IN RACiAL POLARIZATION. WE ARE WORKING FOR THE OPPOSITE IN WAKE COUNTY. WE WANT PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER. AND I JUST DONItr THINK THAT SHE IS--I THOUGHT IT I^/AS A LITTLE CHEEKY OF HER TO COME OVER HERE AND TELL US HOW'TO RUN WAKE COUNTY. BY MS. WINNER,: A SO YOU THINK THAT SHE FROM DURHAM COUNTY SHOULD NOT TELL YOU IN WAKE COUNTY HOI^, TO RUI'J YOUR BUS I NESS ? A NO. AND I DONII T TELL HER IN DURHAM COUNTY P. O. gor 28ra Ll n.bioh. Nodh C.rollnr 2rCr r 1347 14l 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA HOW TO P.UN HER BUS I NES S . a ALL RIGHT. SO yOU DON'T TTIINK THAT yOU SHOULD TELL PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY HOW TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS? A NO. a Now, WHAT IS YOUR--HAVE yOU EVER COMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY? A NO. a HavT YoU EVER PARTICIPATED IN THE CAMPAIGN oF ANYBODY ELSE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY? A I THINK WHEN NICK GALIFIANAKIS RAN I I^/A5 SORT PERIPHERALLY INVOLVED IN THAT. .a UJHAT YEAR WAS THAT-- 1g 7 0 ? A OH, NO. THAT WAS r65 OR '66, I THINK. A THAT WAS THE LAST CANDIDATE YOU CAMPAIGNED AI'ID WORKED IN FORSYTH COUNTY? A WELI., I DIDNI T ACTUALLY WORK I N FORSYTH COUNTY HE WAS RUNNING IN FORSYTH COUNTY. A YOU DIDNIT WORK.IN HIS CAMPAIGN IN FORSYTH COUNTY ? A NO--I.JOT IN FORSYTH COUNTY. NO. A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY COMMUNITY MEETINGS IN FORSYTH COUNTY? A NO. A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY CANDIDATE COALITION MEETINGS IN FORSYTH COUNTY? F P. O. Bor 2!lct u Rd.rgh, Nonh C.reiln. 270il ,l -tL A NO. A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE IVINSTON_SALEM NEWSPAPERS? A r cAN' r sAY FREQUENTLY. No. I A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE CHARLOTTE i NEwspApERs? rvv rNL,uLrrrLr ^LAU ltlt- \-,.A..Lvlltr l A MORE FREqUENTLY THAN THE W I NSTON-SALE|'1. a occASroNALLY? A YEAH. I WOULD SAY ONCE OR TU/ICE A WEEK I READ THE CHARLOTTE PAPER. A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE? A NO. A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE DURHAM COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE? . A NO. a HAVE yOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS 0F THE WINSTOT.J- SALEM IMPROVEMENT ASSOCIATI,ON? A NO. a Do You KNow !{HAT THE WINSToN-SALEM IMPROVEMENT ASSOCIATION IS? A I ASSUME IT IS SIMILAR TO THE ASSOCIATIONS WE HAVE HERE IN WAKE COUNTY. a BUT YOU DONr T KNOl.i ? A NO. 348 437 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. /tlAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457], PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P, O. Bor 2tl(l Ll R.hroh. Nodh Ct.ott0 2?Clt 1349 Ml8 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 OR PRECISION REPORTlNG AND TITANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA FORSYTH COUNTY BLACK LEADERSHIP WHO THE MEMBERS OF THE CONFERENCE ARE? NO. A HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY ABOUT PAP.TICIPATING WITH BL.ACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN FORSYTH COUNTY? WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN, IF I MAY--- (TNTTpPOSING) T HAVE No IDEA. Do YoU KNoW? WELL, I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH PEOPLE FROM WINSTON.SALET4 AND FORSYTH COUNTY ABOUT THE PARTiCIPATICi\I OF BLACKS I N THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN FORSYTI-I COUNTY. DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATiC PARTY IS? A NO. I DONIT KNOW IF I WAS TALKING TO THE CHA]RMAN AT THAT TiME OR NOT. DO YOU KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLEN_ BURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARIY IS? A NOT AT PRESENT; NO. A AND YOU HAVE NEVER DISCUSSED WITH HIM OR HER THE PARTICIPATION OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? f.lO. DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THIS STATE HAS DIFFERENT STRENGTHS IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES? A F P. O. Bor 26153 lJ R.btoh. Nonh C.rolrn. 270ll L35C Mlg I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1{ 15 16 17 18 19 20 2L 22 UJ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBTNG, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A WELL, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES, MS. WINNER. A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A . WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC ELECTION. I THINK PROBABLY GENERALLY YOU COULD MAKE THAT STATEMENT. YES. A MoRE REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY THAN IN WAKE COUNTY? A YES. A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS IN FORSYTH COUNTY? A YES. A AND THOSE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE COUNTIE A OH, YEAH. Tt-tEY ARE DIFFERENT. A AND THOSE DIFFERENCES WOULD AFFECT THE ACCESS OF BLACK PEOPLE TO THE PROCESS; WOULDNIT THEY? A THEY DONIT AFFECT THE BASIC PRINCIPLE--THAT IF YOU PUT THE BLACKS ALL IN ONE;.AREA IT IS GOING TO WEAKEN THEIR INFLUENCE. a Now--- A (IruTENPOSING) NruO I HAVE DISCUSSED THAT WITH PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTIES. AND I DISCUSSED IT AT LENGTH WITH REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN WE WERE DEALING WITH THIS QUESTTON. A P. O. lor 2atB U R&hn. iro'rr a.dto 2trrl i351 Mt+ 0 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 tl 15 16 1? 18 19 m 2L to 23 24 25 PREClSION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A BUT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS FROM WAKE C3UNTY ALSO; ISNIT HE? A YES. BUT HE MADE--- \ a (trurenposlNc) aNo HE HAS NEVER LrVED IN DUR COUNTY; HAS HE? A NO. BUT M,t. WINNER, HE MADE A STUDY OF ALL THESE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND THE VOTING PRECINCTS AND WHERE PEOPLE LIVED IN ALL THESE COUNTIES. SEE, HE WAS ON THE COMMITTEE. AND HE TOOK THE LEAD ON THE COMMITTEE IN COMING UP WITH THIS INFORMATION. A SO YOUR OPINION IS BASED ON REPRESENTATIVE BLUEI S STUDY? A LARGELY, ON THIS QUESTION; YEAH--FOR THOSE OTHER COUNT !'ES. A AND NOT ON YOUR PERSONAL STUDY? A THAT IS TRUE. THAT I; TRUE A NOW, THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE LEGISLATURE DID NOT EXIST IN 1981; DID IT? - A NOT AS SUCH; NO. a SO IT DIDN' T MEET IN 1981; DID IT? A !^/ELL, I T:-IINK THE THREE BLACKS MET. YES. BUT TH5 Y- -- a ( I rurrnPos I l.lc) NOr AS A BLACK CAUCUS? A BUT THEY DIDN'T TAKE AN OFFICIAL POSITION. L ME EXPLAIN I^/HAT THEY DID. THE THREE--- - P. O. gd alGt LJ Rrblgh, rod c.rora. 2761t ') t)r c-tJJr (l'1t+ 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I r0 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPOBTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA q (trvrrcpr):;ING) YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION? REDIRECT, HE MAY. MR. LEONARD: REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, WOULD IF COUNSEL WANTS TO ASK YOU ON IF THE COURT PLEASE, I THINK THAT COUNSEL IS CUTTING OFF THE WITNESS FROM FUI-.[.Y ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. SHE IS MACHINE-GUNNING HIM. AND I THTNK IF HE HAS AN EXPLANATION TO GIVE TO THE QUESTION, HE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE IT. JUDGE PHI LL I PS : I THINK YOU HAVE HAD A TENDENCY TO OVERRUN HIM A LITTLE BIT, MS. l,/IN:.,IER, TOWARD THE MIDPART OF WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN. SO WHEN YOU ASK A QUESTION, UNLESS YOU LIMIT IT, BE PREPARED TO LET THE WITNESS P.ANGE AS WIDELY AS THE QUESTION RANGED. BY M5. WINNER: THE QUESTION WAS:q rN 1981? A sAID, ilWE CHAIRMAN.II DID TIIE BLACK CAUCUS MEET NOT AS AN OFFICIAL BLACK CAUCUS WHERE THEY ARE A BLACK CAUCUS. AND WE ARE ELECTING A a THANK YOIJ. A THE THREE BLACKS MET. THEY CAUCUSED AND CAME AND LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEIR CONCERNS WERE. A AND OTHER GROUPS OF LEGISLATORS MET AND HAD COMMON CONCERNS AS I.JELL? oH, YES. A P. O. aor irtlC3 lJ i-retr. Nod c.dim 2ro!t 1353 y+2 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 r3 l4 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a I PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A AND THAT IS A VERY COMMON THING TO HAPPEN IN THE LEGISLATURE? A WELL, IT IS MORE COMMON NOW, NOW THAT YOU HAVE A I^IOMEN I S CAUCUS, WH I CH I TH INK HAS oFF I C IAL STIIIJCTURE . AND YOU HAVE THE CAPE FEAR CAUCUS. THERE ARE MORE CAUCUSES NOW TIJAN iHERE USED TO BE I S I"IHAT I A}4 SA'f ING. SO IT IS COMMON NOi^/. YES. a IN 1983, THE BLACK CAUCUS FIRST CAME INTO OFFICIAL, FORMAL EXISTENCE? A YES. I THiNK THAT IS CORRECT. A YOU NEVER WENT TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS; DID YOU? A NO. A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT VJAS SAID DURING THE MEETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUSi DO YOU--OF YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE ? A I KNOW WHAT W.qS R,EL,\TED TO ME WAS THE CONCERNS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS AND WHAT MATTERS THAT I WAS TO TAKE ACTION ON. A YOU DID NOT HEAR ANY OF THE MEETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS? A NO. A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER ANY BLACK MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE EXPRESSED THEIR FEARS ABOUT INTIMIDATION DURING THE I4EETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS; DO YOU? F P. O.8q 2ltcl LJ R.aaeh. lJodh C.,oilm Arlrl 1,354 M43 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I t0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A NO. WELL, I WOULD HAVE HEARD THAT. yES. \ a you Do NoT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY DID?. A NO. I DO NOT KNOW. BUT I AM CONFIDENT IF THA HAD BEEN SAID, I WOULD HAVE HEARD IT WITHIN A DAY. .THAT IS YOUR BELIEF? THAT IS MY BELIEF. YES. a AND yOU DO NOT SPECIFICALLY KNOW WHETHER ANy BLACK LEGISLATORS ASKED FRANK BALLANCE PRIVATELY TO TAKE THE LEAD ON ANY ISSUES; DO YOU? NO. A HAVE YOU EVER DISCUSSED THAT ISSUE WITH REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE OTHER THAN HEARING HIS TESTIMONY IN THIS COURTROOM? A I.IO-_BECAUSE I WAS RATHER SURPRISED AT WHAT HE SAID. AND I WOULD HAVE DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM IF I HAD KNO},N HE HAD ANY I NCLINATIOI'I TO aaararE THAT. YOU HAVE NOT DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM? A NO. A NOI.I, THESE DELEGAT I ON AGREEMENTS AS I UNDER_ STAND THEM--THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ACT AS A DELEGATION-- THEY ARE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENTS; IS THAT CORRECT? WELL, THEY HAVE NO LEGAL MANDATORY EFFECT. AND IF A COUNTY WERE SUBDIVIDED, THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO PREVENT THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE SUB- D IVI s I ONS OF THE COUNTI ES FROM E!.ITERING INTO A VOLUNTARY a t F P. O.8or illct lJ R.a.lch, i.od C.@.ht 2?6rl 1355 r4 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 N 2l .r., 23 24 25 a O PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AGREEMENT; WOULD THERE? A OH, NO. a NOW, YOU ARE A PARTY DEMOCRATi AREN'T yOU? A A PARTY DEMOCRAT? A YOU PERCEIVE YOURSELF TO BE A DEMOCRAT? A OH, YES. A AND YOU ARE VERY VOCAL ABOUT THAT? A I TRY TO BE. YEAH. A AIID YOU ARE LOYAL TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY? A I TRY TO BE. A AND YOU TRY TO DO THINGS THAT PROMOTE IT? A OH, YES. A AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT IF YOU SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTED MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES THAT THAT WOULD HELP REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED? . A NO QUESTI ON THAT IT 'yr'OULD. YES. I HAVE SAID THAT. A AND THAT I S ONE OE THE REASONS THAT YOU ARE OPPOSED TO DOING THAT; ISNTT IT? A YES. A YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE FOR A LONG TiME--SEVERAL YEARS? A FIVE TERMS. A IN YOUR PERCEPTION, AT LEAST FOR DEMOCRATS DOES SENIORITY HELP YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATUR - 2. O. Bor 2lla u Rrbrgh. t{onh c.Drtr arctt 1356 1s e; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 r3 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 26 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARiZONA A I-JELL , lT I S ONE OF THE FACTORS. YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATURE IS MAII\ILY LUCK THAT YoU ARE AT THE RIGHT PLACE IN THE RIGHT TIME AND PICK THE RIGHT CANDIDATE FOR SPEAKER. A .IT DOESNIT GUARANTEE YOUR EFFECTIVENESS, BUT IT CERTAINLY ASSISTS YOUR EFFECTIVENESS? A YES. SENIORITY DOES. ABILITY ALSO AFFECTS YOUR EFFECTIVENESS. A SENIORITY IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE FACTORS? A NO. FOR INSTANCE, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WAS RATED IN THE TOP QUARTER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHEN HE WAS A FRESHMAN. HE WAS RATED ]1ST. A SO IT IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE FACTORS? . A NO. I T I S ONE OF TTIE TECTORS. YES. a Do you KNow oF ANy ELECTION THAT HAS HAD A SECOND PRIMARY IN WHICH A RUTE WITH A 45 PERCENT CUTOFF AND A 1O PERCENT SPREAD I.IOULD HAVE CHANGED THE RESULTS? A I SAW SOME CHARTS, MS. I.JINNER, ABOUT THE DIFF=RENT PROPOSALS. AND I DONIT RECALL WHETHER THAT WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANY RESULTS. A AT THE TII4E: THAT YOU PROPOSED TO AMEND THE BILL, DID YOU KNOW WI.{ETHER OR NOT CHANGING TO THAT RULE WOULD CHANGE THE RESULTS OF ANY ELECTIONS? F P. O. 8or tla3 lJ i.bt!h. Noni Cuottr. trotr 1357 45 I .2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.1571 PHOEN|X. ARtZO.IA A NO. I CAN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT I COULD POINT TO ANY--YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PAST ELECTIONS? A YES, SIR? A NO. I CANNOT POINT TO ANY SPECIFIC PAST ELECTION. .IT MIGHT CHANGE THE RESULT IN SOME FUTURE E LECT I ON. A BUT YOU DONIT KNOW? THAT IS SPECULATION? A WELL, ALL FUTURE ELECTIONS ARE SPECULATION. YES. a Now, IS HAVE EQUALLY HIGH COUNTY ? A NO. WE AND STILL HAVENIT A AND IN IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT BLACK PEOPLE REGISTRATION AS WHITE PEOPLE IN I.'AKE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR 20 YEARS GOTTEN IT UP TO THE LEVEL OF WHITE. FACT, THERE IS STILL A SUBSTANTIAL GAP? DON'T KNOW IF i' IS SUBSTANTIAL.. A WELL, I THERE IS A GAP. WOULD YOU CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS TO BE SUBSTANTIAL? I WOULD CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS AS BEING UNACCEPTABLE. A YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN ELECTED TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL AT LARGE. ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THERE ARE NO BLACK REPRESEN- TATIVES ELECTED AT LAP.GE TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL, AND F P. O. lor 2llGS lJ A&leh. ttor$ C.ro0r tTar r 1358 ,147 I I 3 4 o 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 16 16 L1 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX ARIZONA THAT THERE HAVE NOT BEEN FOR THE PAST AT LEAST FOUR OR SIX YEARS? A I.rO. MS. WINNER, I APOLOGIZS. WHEN WE HAD THE AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR THE ELECTION OF THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL--THAT t^lAS CHANGED IN THE SEVENTIES. BUT BEFORE THEN, THERE WAS CONSISTENTLY BLACKS ELECTED AT LARGE UNDER THE AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL START- ING IN 1961. I BELIEVE THAT SENATOR WINTERS WAS THE FIRST ONE. AND THEN HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY MAYOR LIGHTNER. AND THEN WHEN WE WENT INTO THE MIXED SYSTEM AND THE DIRECT ELECTION OF THE MAYOR, MAYOP. LIGHTNER WAS ELECTED MAYOR. SO I THINK IN EVERY YEAR SINCE I HAVE BEEN ASSoCIATED IN POLITICS SINCE 1960, WE HAVE--AND VtE HAD AN AT-LARGE ELECTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL--WE HAD A BLACK ON THE CITY COUNCIL. A BUT SINCE I.T HAS CHANGED TO A MI THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BLACK PERSON ELECTED THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL; HAS THERE? XED AT SYSTEM, LARGE TO NO. AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CANDIDATES; HAVENIT THERE ? A I THINK SPURGE CAMERON RAN ONE TIME. A NOW, THERE \^'AS A BILL INTRODUCED IN THE LEGISLATURE IN 1981 THAT WOULD HAVE CREATED SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS AS OF 1990 ALL OVER THE STATE; WASNIT THERE? A P. o- Bor 2lldl LJ Rrbrsh. )frh C.reril ?7ctr 1359 1tl B 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 a o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRlBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH. 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A I THINK THAT THE REPRESENTATIVE HAGY, A REPUBL]CAN REPRESENTATIVE, INTRODUCED A PLAN THAT DID TnRT oI'I BEHALF oF THE REPUBLIcANS. MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? BY MS . I'I I NNER : A LET ME SHOW YOU THIS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLEC- TION. A OH, YES. THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE BARKER'S BILL. A WHAT I HAVE HANDED YOU IS HOUSE BILL 229; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. a FROM THE 1981 SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY? A uH-HUH. A COULD YOU READ THE SHORT TITLE OF THAT BILL? A THE SHORT ""T IS ''SINGLE-MEMB=R LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS.II A WOULD YCU READ THE LONG TITLE OF THE BILL? A ''...AN ACT TO AMEND ARTICLE 2 OF THE NORTH CAROLINA CONSTITUTION TO CHANGE THE NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES TO PROVIDE FOR SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS AND TO SET THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.II A CAN YOU READ THE FIRST SPONSOR OF THE BILL? a t. O. 8or Ild lJ R.Uen. ilonh C.olr6. ,Iatr 1360 149 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2L .t, 23 24 25 PRECIS]ON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA REPRESENTAIIVE BARKER. WHO IS THE SECOND SPONSOR OF THE BILL? ADAI'1S IS THAT YOU? THAT I S ME. a REPRESEI'ITATIVE ADAMS, wERE You rt'tE ATTORI'IEy FOR WAKE COUNTY WHEN WAKE COUNTY BAILED OUT OF SECTION 5? A NO. A HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER THAT ALLOWED THE BAILOUT? A A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER? I DON'T BELIEVE I HAVE. NO. MS. WINNER: IN T!-!AT CASE, I WOULD MOVE TO STRIKE THE PORTION OF REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS' TESTIMONY THAT GIVES THE REASONS THAT I./AKE COUNTY WAS ALLOWED TO BAIL OUT FP.qM SECTION ;. I THINK IT IS PUBLIC RECORD. AND WE T.JOULD CERTAINLY STIPULATE , THAT T.'AKE couNTY wAS ALLOI^JED To BAIL our FROM sEcrIoN 5. BUT THE STANDARD THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT USED TO COI..ISENT TO THAT BAILOUT IS CERTAINLY BEYOND REPRESEIiTATIVE ADAMST POSSIBLE KNOWLEDGE AND IS BEST PROVED, IF PROVED AT ALL, BY THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSENT ORDER AND NOT BY REPRESEN- TAT I VE ADAMS I I NTERPRETAT I ON OF I,JHAT I T II1EANT. MR. LEONARD: I^IELL, I F THE CoURT PLEASE IF THAT IS MEANT TO II1PEACH THE WITN:SS, LETTS HAVE THE F P. O. eor 2lldt U R.l.roh, Nqn C..oIo 27!il Ir36L t0 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA COPY OF THE ORDEP.. t4S. T./ I NNER : IT IS NOT I4EANT TO II.,I_ PEACH THE WITNESS. IT IS MEANT TO SHOI,I THAT THE TESTI- MONY IS INCOMPE'TENT. MR. LEONARD: THE WITNESS TESTIFIED TO WHAT HIS RECOLLECTION OF THE FACTS WERE. AND UNTIL THAT TESTIMONY IS CONTROVERTED, AT THIS JUNCTURE THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RECORD TO INDICATE THAT HIS RECOLLECTION ISNIT AS GOOD AS THE OFFICIAL RECORD. JUDGE PHI LLI PS: OVERRULED. BY MS . I.I I NNER : A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR KNOI,ILEDGE OF THE REASONS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DECIDED TO CONSENT TO THE SECTION 5 BAILOUT? A CONVERSATIONS WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND I^'ITH. SPECIFICALLY JIM SHEPHERD, WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THE BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE AND WHO I'IAS MY CLOSE FRIEND AND ADVISOR. A ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THE TIME PERIOD FOR DETERMINING BAILOUT WAS FIVE YEARS AND NOT 15 YEARS, AS YOU TESTIFIED? A I AM SURE OF THAT. THEY HAD TO GO BACK IN HISTORY TO--- a ( r Nrrnpos r NG) so you REALLY DoN '! T KNow Ho\^: MANY YEARS THEY HAD TO GO BACK? Ft P, O. 8or ?trq! lJ n.bEt, Nonh c.ch 27air 'fi62 '15 1 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 r3 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A IT TO TRY--THEY 14 FBI AGENTS SHEPHERD TOLD I.lAVE BEEN FIVE. THE COUNTY. THEY OR INVESTIGATORS. THEY WENT BACK I N SENT SOMETHII'IG LIKE THIS IS WHAT COULD COMBED HERE ME. THI Saso IS ALL JUST WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE SAID TO YOU ? THIS IS WHAT THE LEADER OF THE BLACK REGISTRA- TION DRIVE TOLD I'1E. AND HE SAID THEY WENT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TRYING TO FIND INSTANCES OF VOTER DISCRIMINATION OR RAcIAL DI SCRIIlINATICN IN VoTER REGISTRATIoN. AND THEY COULDI'.IIT FIND ANY. AT..ID SO THEY ADVISED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT THERE WASNIT ANY. AND THEY CONSENTED T}IAT THERE I^JASNIT ANY. AND WE GOT OUT OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT. A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT THE SCOPE OF THE INVESTIGATION WAS LIMiTED TO WHETHER OR NOT A LITERACY TEST HAD BEEN USED ? I THINK THAT l,{AS.THE CRITERIA.-WI{ETHER THE LITERACY TEST WAS USED TO DENY BLACKS ACCESS TO VOTER REGISTRATION. AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT--THE VOTER RIGHTS ACT RAISED A PRESUMPTION THAT IF YOU HAD A LITERACY TEST AND LESS THAN 50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OF YOUR COUNTY PARTICIPATED IN THE 1964 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THERE WAS A PRESUMPTION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION--USE OF THE LITERACY TEST FOR RACIAL DISCIlIl.1II.IATI3N. l-t P. O. 8or ,ltel t-l i.ata!n, Xdh CrroIE 27att \52 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 9 10 1l t2 13 14 l5 16 17 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 AND SO IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THE ONLY DETERI'lINATIOT\I MADE BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS THAT, IN FACT, BECAUSE OF THE PECULIAR II.{STITUTIONAL POPULATION OF I,IAKE COUNTY THAT THE STATISTICS ABOUT THE NU|{BER oF PEOPLE WHO VOTED WEitE \./RONG? A POSS I BLE. THAT WAS NEVER REPORTED. I MEAN, IT IS BUT I NEVER HEARD THAT. NO. o A YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT THE PROBLEM AROSE BECAUSE WAKE COUNTY HAS OR BEC,A.USE RALEIGH HAS CENTRAL PRISON AND RALEIGH HAS COLLEGES. AND THEREFCRE, THE CENSUS DATA W,AS INFLATED AS TO THE NUMBEII OF PEOPLE? A NO. WE DIDNTT ATTACK IS WHAT--I,E DID NOT ATTACK THE CENSUS ITSELF. THAT VJAS NOT THE GROUNDS FOR OUR APPEAL. a WERE you THE pr_RSON WHO DECIDED THE GROUNDS FOR THE APPEAL A LARGELY; YES. a WERE you IN THE COURTROOM WHEN THE AppEAL VJAS MADE ? NO. IT VJAS DONE BY CONSENT ORDER. I,JE WENT UP AND TALKED TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTI.4ENT. WERE YOU THERE DURING THE CONVERSATION? YES. q AND THE DETERMINATION \^IAS THAT THE LITERACY TEST HAD NOT BEE USED TO DISCRII,IINATE IN A FIVE-YEAR PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2lld LJ i.ba!ft, }{dn c.'oilr 2r6tl 1364 Y5l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 21 oo 23 24 25 PERIOD; IS THAT CORRECT? A THE DETERMINATION AS I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS THAT Tne JUSTIcE D.EPARTMENT AND THE FBI CoULD FIND No EViDENCE IN WAKE COUNTY OF THE LITERACY TEST BEING USED TO DISCRI14INATE AGAINST BLACK VOTERS. a AND yOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TIME PERIOD WAS? A IT WAS SOME YEARS PAST. THEY HAD TO GO BACK IN THE PAST FOR SOME YEARS. a You DoN,T KNOW HOW MANY YEARS? A NO. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY YEARS. MS. WINNER: I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS. R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:10 A. BY MR. LEONARD: A TELL THE CO.URT WHY YOU INTRODUCED THE BILL IN THE LAST SESSIOI'J OR THE SESSION SEFORE REL,\TING TO SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE DECADE OF THE NINETIES. A iN 1975 I HAD INTRODUCED A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDI.4ENT WHICH ALLOI,JED A COUNTY, IF IT WANTED TO, TO HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. IT WAS NOT MANDATORY. AND ADMIRAL BAP.KER HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN THAT FOR SOI1E T IME. AND AT TtjAT TIME, THE CONSTITUTION--t^'ELL, IT STILL SAYS SO, BUT IT IS INOPERATIVE--THAT A COUNTY PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. Bor ZEl((l lJ 8.hl9n, xodh crror.. 270il 1cctrL\)UU1 2 3 5t+ 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L qo 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA COULD NOT BE SPLIT. P.ND I THOUGHT AT THAT TIME THAT IT MIGHT BE ADVANTAGEOUS AT SOME TIMES TO SPLIT A COUNTY; AND THAT AT LEAST THAT WE OUGHT TO HAVE THAT OP':'ION. AND REPRESENTATIVE BARKER SUPPORTED ME ON THAT AND WAS VERY ACTIVE ON IT AND SAID, "NOW, I AM GOING TO INTRODUCE THIS ONE DOI.TN THE LINE. I WANT YOU TO HELP ME.I so WHEN HE BROUGIIT tlE THE BILL, I WAS OBLIGATED TO SIGN THE THING. I D ID NOT INTRODUCE IT. I TJUST SIGhIED IT, AS DID A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE. BIJT IT I^'AS BECAUSE OF HIS PAS T HE LP 'd I TI.I },1E . A COUNSEL ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR REPRESENTATIVES FROM COUNTIES WHO REPRE- SENT SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICTS TO FORM A CAUCUS. AND I BEL I EVE YOUR ANSWER WAS THAT I T I S POSS I BLE. !^'AS THAT YOUR ANSWER? . A OH, CERTAINLy IT IS pOSSIBLE. ANYBODY CAN FORM A CAUCUS IF THEY WANT TO. a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE I S THE SAi4E DEGREE OF MOTIVATION FOR REPRESENTATIVF- REPRESENTING THE SAME COUNTY BUT FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS TO ACT AS A COHESIVE GROUP OR A CAUCUS AS THERE IS WHEN THOSE REPRESENTATIVES ARE ELECTED AT LARGE? MS. WINNER: OBJECTION. JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED. THE !^IITNESS: DO I HAVE AN OPINION? F P. O.8or 2alB LJ R.uCfi. xodh C.rolo 270il 136€ KM5 5 I 2 3 4 5 6 o 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA YES. HAVE AN OPINION. BY MR. LEONA.RD: YES? WHAT IS THAT OPINION? MS. WINNER: . JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THE i.JI TNESS: OBJECT I ON. OVERRUTED. WELL, GENERALLY, IF YOU IT T'JAS PURELY A MATTER OF YOUR UNDER WHICH WAKE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CONSTITUI-:NIS, YOU DO NOT HAVE A COMMONALITY OF INTEREST. AND THE CAUCUS IS NOT THAT EFFECTIVE. AND YOUS{ DELEGATION IS NOT THAT EFFECTIVE. AND I CAN CITE AN INSTANCE IF YOU WANT. MR. LEONARD: THAT IS ALL. I THINK WE HAVE YOUR OPINIOI'I. EXAMINATION 10:12 A.M. BY.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO I UNDER.S.TAND THAT YOUR TESTII4ONY IS THAT YOU SIGNED THE BARKER BILL ESSENTIALLY TO DISCHARGE AN OBLIGATION AND THAT IT RAN. COUNTER TO YOUR PERCEPTION ABOUT THE RELATIVE VIRTUES OF THE MULTI-MEMBER AND SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS SO FAR AS THE INT:RESTS OF 3LACK CITIZENS? A IN 1981--THAT IS CORRECT. POLITICAL OBLIGATION. a Do r UNDERSTAI.ID THAT ON THE KNOI'JLEDGE RESPECT I NG THE C IRCUMSTANCES !-t p. O. lor 2!lGt LJ iabte{r ,{onh CrrCh. 2?3tt ': (" fr t-JLJO, K.M56 I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o.l 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA COUNTY WAS RELIEVED OF THE VO }NG RIGHTS OBLIGATIONS THAT YOU WE:T: A PAR.T I C I PANT I N THE LEGAL 5FFORTS THAT LED TO THAT ACTION? YES. IT WAS MY IDEA, JUDGE PHILI-IPS. AND YOU WENT TO WASHINGTON? YES__WIT}1 THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND THE CHI\IRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTION. q T{ERE YOU AWARE AT THE TIME OF THE BASIS UPON WHICH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ACTED AS REFLECTED IN THE CONSENT ORDER? TOM BANKS, THE COUNTY ATTORNEY, TOLD I.4E WHAT THEY DID. A AT WHAT POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE PROCEEDINGS AS A DIRECT PARTICIPANT, SO THAT YOU HAD LATER TO GET YOUR KNOWLEDGE A3OUT WHAT HAPPENED FROM MR. BANKS? , A WELL, THE. PROCEEDING WAS.-BILL STEVENSON AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--BILL STEVENSON WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--I THINK HE WAS AT THAT TIME--AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN, WHO WAS THE SUPERVI SOR OF ELECTIONS, AND TOM BANKS, I^,HO WAS COUNTY ATTORNEY AND MYSELF, WHO HAD HEADED THE VOTER REGISTRA- TION DRIVE WHICH HAD RESULTED IN DOUBLING THE REGISTRA- TION OF BLACKS IN WAKE CoUNTY, WENT TO WASHINGTON--- a (tNTEP.POSING) 1^,ELL, WHEN DID YOU LEAVE THE PROCESS SO THAT YOUR FIRSTI{AND KNO'J/LEDGE OF WHAT WAS F P. O 8or 2t'1Gt lJ n.blgh, Nom CrErnr 2?6ll 1368 157 I 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 11 18 19 20 2L o., 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA GOING ON CEASED? A WELL, THERE WAS A CONFERENCE IN WASHINGTON WiTH THE CIVI L RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. A YOU PARTICIPATED IN THAT? A .I PARTICIPATED IN THAT. AS A RESULT OF THAT, TOM BANKS_-WE CAME BACK. AND TOI4 BANKS DREW THE LAVISUIT. AND I I^JAS INI CONTACT WITH HIM EITHER PERSONALLY OR BY TELEPHONE AS TO WHAT WOULD GO IN THERE. AND THEN HE INFORMED ME THAT THE FBI WAS DOI^/N HERE INVESTIGATING US. AND JIM SHEPHERD TOLD ME THAT ALSO, WHO IS A BLACK LEADER. A DO YOU RECALL IF THE CONSENT ORDER IN ITS FINA FORM REFLECI'S THE BASIS UPON WHICH THE_-- A (INTTRPOSING) NO; I DONTT, JUDGE PHILLIPS. I JUST KNOW THAT HE TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD CONSENTED. .J UDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT . THANK YOU . ANY QUESTIONS FROt4 COU.NSEL? MS. r'{INNER: NO, SIR. JUDGE PHILLIPS: . THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. AD.AMS. MR. LEOI'IARD: MAY THE IdITNESS BE EXCUSED ? JUDGE PHILLIPS: MS. WINNER, DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO }.IIS BEING EXCUSED? MS. WI NNER: I HAVE NO OBJECTION. YES, SIR. I AM SORRY. - ,. O. Eor 2616 Ll Rrbroh. Nodh c.rcrnr aTalr 13,$ I r5B 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l ar, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA (I^IiTNESS EXCUSED. ) (wnrREUPcN, THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS rOltOWS: ) D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 10:17 A.I\,1. BY MR. LEONARD: a wouLD You STATE YOUR FULL--- MS. V{INNER: (INTERPOSING) YOUR HONC') MAY DR. GROFMAN SIT WITH ME AT THE TABLE? .JUDGE PHILLIPS: DR. GRoFMAN MAY SIT wITH YOU AT THE COUNSEL TABLE. MS. WINNER.: BY MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. a woulD you STATE youR FULL NAM: AND YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE ? A THOMAS BROOKS HOF€LLER; 9005 VERNON VIEI, DRIV ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA. A ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED? A I AM. a BY WHoM ARE YOU EiiPLOYED? A THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COI'IMITTEE IN I,IASHING- TON, D. C. 1 AND IN WHAT CAPACITY? F P, O. gor 2Elall u arudr. Lonh Crolm 2?ctr 13?0 159 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 t1 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457t PHOENIX, ARIZONA A I AM THE DIRECTOR OF THE COMPUTER SERVICES DIVISION. A DO YOUR DUTIES INCLUDE POLITICAL ANALYSIS? A THEY DO. A .DO PART OF THOSE DUTIES IN POLITICAL ANALYSIS INCLUDE VOTER ANALYSIS? A THEY DO. A TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT DEGREES YOU HAVE AND WHAT YEARS YOU RECEIVED THEM. A I RECEIVED A BACHELORIS DEGREE FROM CLAREMONT MENIS COLLEGE IN 1970 AND A PH.D. FROM CLAREMONT GRADUATE SCHOOL IN 1980. a WHAT t.tAS THE SUB.JECT OF YOUR DOCTORAL DI SSERTAT ION? A MISSISSIPPI REDISTRICTING. A HAD YOU BEEN ACTIVE IN THE REDISTRICTING OF THE MISSISSIPPI LEGISLATURE PRIOR TO THE TIME OR DURING THE TIME YOU WROTE THAT DISSERTATION? A PRIOR TO THE TIME I HAD BEEN ACTIVE. A DTD YOU TESTIFY IN FEDERAL COURTS IN MISSISSIPPI AND IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA I./ITH P.ESPECT TO CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTING IN THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI? A MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I GAVE A DEPOSITION FOR THE FEDERAL COURT IN MISSISSIPPI IN REGARD TO THE F P. O. Bor 2ala u i.bldl xonh C.rotD 2t!rl i.3?1 )0 1 2 3 4 D 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA ST.d.'i'E HOUSE AND SENATE REDISTRICTINGS. AND I TESTIFIED IN REGARD TO LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING IN THE DISTRICT COURT IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. A TELL THE COURT WHERE ELSE YOU HAVE TESTIFIED ON THE SUB.J.ECT OF REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO FEDERAL COURTS. I AI..1 SORRY. WITH RESPECT TO--- ( I NrrnPos i NG) rrornRu couP.TS ? FEDERAL COURTS. I TESTIFIED IN THE ILLINOIS LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING CASE, THE RUBICKI CASE. AND I TESTIFIED IN THE CHICAGO CITY COUNCIL REDISTRICTING CASE. THAT WAS A SECTION 2 CASE LAST YEAR. AND ILLiNOIS CONGRESSIONAL? YTs-_TnE ILLINOIS CONGRESSIONAL CASE ALSO. THEY I^TERE RIGHT TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME. A WHAT OTHER STATE REDI"*'CTING WITH RESPECT TO CONGRESS OR LEGISLATURES HAVE YOU PARTICIPATED IN? I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN CONGRESSIONAL REDIS- TRICTING IN CALIFORNIA, TO SOME DEGREE IN WASHINGTON STATE, IN MINNESOTA, IN ILLINOIS, TO SOME DEGREE IN NORTH CAROLINA. I HAVE DRAWN PLANS FOR NEW JERSEY. I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN PREPARATION OF THE COMMITTEEIS AMICUS BRIEF TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT IN THE NEW JERSEY RE- DISTRICTING CASE, !,/HICH WAS.JUST DECIDED. DI STRICTS FOR Tt{E STATE OF'MAINE. I HAVE DRAWN F P. O. Bor 261*l lJ n.blsh. Nonh c.6r.. 27otr tr Dt^t o -t!-o i {< M61 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 to 13 l4 15 t6 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 21 25 (X PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN MY CAPACITY AS DIRECTOR OF THE REDIS- TRICTING DIVISION OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEF I HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE SCOPE OF CON- GRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING ACROSS THE NATION. A TELL THE COURT THE FIRST YEAR THAT YOU BECAME INVOLVED IN THE SUB.JECT OF REDISTRICTING IN A DIRECT AS OPPOSED TO AN ACADEMIC MANNER. A rN 1965--- a (trurrRposll.tc) .lusr TELL us THE YEAR. A rN 1965. A HAVE YOU SINCE THAT TIME CONTINUOUSLY BEEN EMPLOYED AND/OR II.IVOLVED IN MATTERS HAVING TO DO WITH REDISTRICTING OF LEGISLATIVE BODIES? A NOT PRECISELY CONSISTENTLY. BUT I I-IAVE HAD EXPERIENCE OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, PARTICULARLY FROM 1970 THROUGH THE PRESENT. A DID YOU PREPARE DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 36, WHICH IS YOUR RESUME? (orr,enoRruTs EXHIBIT No. 36 wAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. ) A I DID. I.4R. LEONARD: WE OFFER DEFENDANTS I EXHIBIT '6 AT THIS TIME, IF THE COURT PLEASE. MS. WINNER: THE COURT: NO OBJECTION. IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT - P. O. Bor 2tl6 lJ i.blgn. Nodh Cerm 2ntr x.3 73 ,*o .16 2 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA OBJECTION. (oErrruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. ,5 wAS RECEIVED IN rvTorxcr. ) BY MR. LEONARD: A .WHEN DID YoU FIRST BECoME INVoLVED IN THE ISSUE OF THE REDISTRICTING OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATI\E AND THE SENATE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA? A THAT WAS IN THE FALL OF 1981. A TELL THE CCURT L'UST BRIEFLY HOW YOU BECAME INVOLVED AND WHAT YOU DID. A I WAS ASKED BY YOU AT.ID BY THE ATTORNEY GENERALIS OFFICE IN NORTH CAROLINA TO MAKE A DEMOGRAPHIC EXAMI].,IATION OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA TO ASCERTAIN WHERE THE CONCE}.ITRATIONS OF RACIAL MINORITIES WERE PRESENT AND WHERE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTP.ICTS COULD BE CONSTRUCTED IN THAT STATE A DURING THE COURSE OF THAT ACTIVITY WHAT, IF ANY, CONCLUSION OF VJHAT, IFANYTHING, DID YOU LEARN WITH RESPECT TO THE COVERED VERSUS NON-COVERED AREAS OF THE STATE? A I AM NOT SURE I COULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE COVERED AND NON-COVERED COUNTIES. THERE WERE LARGE CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK RESIDENTS IN THE MAJOR METROPOLI- TAN AREAS, MOST OF WHICH WERE IN THE NON-COVERED COUNTIES THERE WERE ALSO SOI.1E IN COVEFIED COUNTIES. F P. O. gor :tlB LJ R.bleD. Nodh C.oraE ,7att X a,., f_rld J ltvl6 3 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L .lo 23 24 25 PRECISION FEPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA FOR THE OF BLACK RESIDENTS WAS'LIMITED TO THE a DrD YOU NORTH CAROLINA WERE RIGHTS ACT AND THAT MOST PART, SIGNIFICANT CONCENTRATION IN RURAL AREAS OR NON-MAJOR CITIES COVERED COUNTIES. LEARN THAT SOME OF COVERED BY SECTTCN SOME WERE NOT? THE COUNTIES IN 5 OF THE VOTING CERTA I NLY. A DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN DISCUSSIONS WITH COUN- SEL AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEES OF THE TWO HOUSES WITH RESPECT TO THEIR DEALINGS }^JITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE SECTION 5 COVERED COUNTIES? I DON I T RECALL ANY SPEC I FI C DI SCUSS I ONS t^tI TH LEGISLATORS WITH REGARD TO THAT SUB.JECT. MY EXAMINATION, AT LEAST IN THE BEGINNING, WAS FAIRLY LIMITED. DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE THAT THERE WERE NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WITH RESPECT TO THAT ASPECTS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE PLAN THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE COVERED EOUNTIES? I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD BETI./EEN I*U TIME WHICH I STARTED AND THE TIME WHI CH THE FINAL REDISTRICTING LAWS WERE PASSED THAT THERE WAS A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF NEGOTIATION, IF YOU CAN STYLE IT AS NEGOTIATION, BETWEEN THE STATE OFFICIALS, THE LEGISLA- TORS AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET A PLAN FOR THE STATE WHICH COULD PASS PRE-CLEARANCE. F P. O. Bor 2t!6 lJ n.bagh, todh c..or'M 27orr f r1r.rr.*J /D 16 tr 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a VJERE YOU PRESENT DURING THE TESTIMOI'IY OF DR. BERNARD GRO F}4AN ? A I WAS. A HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY_.STRIKE THAT. I{HEN DID YOU FI RST RECE IVE THE DATA BASE--OR I F THERE IS A BETTER TERM, PLEASE USE IT_-THAT DR. GROFMAN BASED HIS CONCLUSiONS ON IN HIS TESTIMONY? MS. I.,INNER: COULD I ASK HIM TO BE SPECiFIC WHETHER HE IS TALKING ABOUT AN EXHIBIT OR SOME- THING ELSE? MR. LEONARD: I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE WITNESS DESCRI BE \^IHAT HE RECEIVED FIRST. AND THEI{ WE WILL TRY TO IDENTIFY IT MORE SPECIFICALLY AS AN EXHIBIT. \,UDGE PHILLIPS: ARE WE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF QUALIFYING THIS I'IITNESS? ' MR. LEONARD: NO, YOUR HONOR' No; wE ARE NOT. I AM SORRY. I WOULD OFFER DR. HOFELLER AS AI''I EXPERT ON THE SUB.JECT MATTER AS STATED. MS. I,IINNER: I THINK THAT THAT IS A LITTLE BROAD FOR EXPERTISE. THERE ARE I4ANY SUBJECT MATTERS INVOLVED IN THE CASE .JUDGE PHILLIPS: ON WHAT BASIS WAS DR. GROFMAI'IQUALIFIEDASANEXPERT?DOYOURECALL? MS . W I I'.INER : I HAVE THAT WR I TTEN DO}'N ' ,JUDGE PHILLIPS: WOULD YOU HAVE ANY t. O- gor 2tl6ll Ll R.bEt, t*o,u Croliil 27Ell :1" 3 76 '16 5 1 , 3 4 5 6 7 I 9 l0 1l L2 13 L4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 oR. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA OBJECTION TO THE QUALIFICATION OF DR. HOFELLER ON THE SAME BASIS? MS. I.JINNER: I OB.JECT TO DR. HOFELLERI BEING QUALIFIED ON STATISTICAL METHODOLOGY AND GEI.,IERAL REAPPORTI ONMENT MATTERS. .JUDGE pHILLIpS: l,lELL, l.lE NEED SOi'1ETHING FOR THE RECORD. MR. LEoNARD: BY I.1R. LEOIJARD: MR. LEONARD: REASONS, TF THE COURT PLEASE. MAY I ASK THE WITNESS? I OFFER HIM FOR ALL THOSE A DR. HOFELLER, IS THAT SATISFACTORY TO YOU? A I I,JOULD THINK THAT I COULD SAY THAT I HAVE HAD A GREAT AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE IN REDISTRICTING. AND I HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF THE PROBLEMS INVOLVED WITH RACE IN REGARD TO REDISTRICTING AND IN TERI,IS OF THE oNE-t,lAN, ONE-VOTE RULE AND IN TERMS 0F THE USE OF DATA FOR ELECTORAL ANALYSIS AND THE PREDICTION OF ELECTION OUTCOMES I I.,OULD SAY THAT.IF SHE MEANS THE SAME THING THAT WE ARE IN AGREEMENT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, T.JE T'IILL ACCEPT HIS QUALIFICATION AS AN EXPERT IN MATTERS OF STATISTICAL METHODOLOGY, PARTICULARLY IN RELATION TO PROBLEMS OF LEG I SLATI VE REAPPORTI ONMENT. - P. O. &r i'tlct Ll n.blan. Nodn Cnoth. zitrl r)r.rF i( t 4 ,l Jl .r,16 6 1 2 3 4 b 6 a 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.A57\ PHOENIX, ARIZONA MS. tlINNER: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THAT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: I^IELL, HE IS So QUALIFIED. BY MR. LEONARD: a - DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE--DrD THE MATERIAL THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM DR. GROFMAN HAVE EXHIBIT NUMBERS ON IT OR DOES IT NOh'? A CERTAINLY; YES. A COULD YOU TELL THE COURT I,'HEN YOU RECEIVED THIS MATERIAL THAT YOU HAVE UP ON THE !.,IITNESS TABLE WITH YOU AND WHAT THE EXHIBIT NUMBERS ARE? A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN RECITE THE SPECIFIC EXHiBIT NUMBERS OF ALL THE EXHIBITS THAT DR. GROFMAN PRODUCED. BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT I F I RST SAI./ THEM V/IIEN DR. GROFMAN GAVE HIS DEPOSITION HERE IN I4ECKLENBURG. I BELIEVE IT WAS_- a (rrurrnPosrNG) wE ARE rN RALETGH. A I AM SORRY-_IN RALEIGH. I BELIEVE IT WAS A WEEK AGO LAST FRIDAY WHEN I FIRST SAW THOSE EXHIBITS. AND I RECEIVED COPIES OF THEM THE NEXT WEEK, ON MONDAY. A PLEASE IDENTIFY THEM, IF YOU CAN, IF THEY HAVE EXHIBIT NUI,IBEP.S ON THEM P.UNNING FROI4-_I4AY I APPROACH THE WITNESS, PLEASE? T''E HAVE GINGLES EXHIBIT 15. I BELIEVE THAT Tt-iEY START I,/IT!1 13, 14, 15, 16--- .,UDGE pHILLIpS: (tllrrRpOsIt,lc) ttett, MR. F P. O. Bor 2tlct lJ n.hgh. Nofr C.rolm 27aI 13:/B iM6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA WITNESS, CAN YOU TESTIFY THAT YOU RECEIVED A GROUP DOCUMENTS THAT YOU NOW HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSIOI.I AT T TIME THAT YOU INDICATED YOU RECEIVED THEI..1? THE WITNESS: yES, YOUR HONOR. . JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I,IILL YOU READ FRO!'4 DOCUMENTS WHICH YOU SAY YOU RECEIVED ON THOSE DATES EXHIBIT NUMBERS WITH I^JHICH THEY ARE MARKED? OF HE THOS E THE THE I.JI TNESS : HUGE PILTJ OF THEM. YOUR HONOR, THERE I S A MP.. LEONARD : MAY I SHOW THE WITNESS THE EXHIBIT LIST, IF THE COURT PLEASE? AND I THINK HE }..lILL RECOGNIZE WHAT HE RECEIVED FROM THE EXHIBIT LIST. THE I^II TNESS: YOUR HoNOR, I AM NOT TRYING TO BE EVASIVE HERE. I RECEIVED ALL THE EXHIBITS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE VERY LARGE PRINTOUTS THAT DR. GROFMAN PRESENTED. OIO I AM SPE;IFICALLY CONCERNED TODAY WITH EXHIBITS 1](A) THROUGH (E), 14(A) TNNOUEN (D), 15(A) THROUGH (H), 16(A) rnnOUeH^(F), 17(A) THRoUGH (r), 18(A) THROUGH (p). JUDGE PHILLI PS: AND THOSE I^JERE ALL IN THE MATERIALS THAT YOU RECEIVED AT THE TIME YOU II{DICATED YOU RECEIVED THE DOCUMENTS FROM DR. GROFMAN? THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. BY MR. LEONAR.D : F P. O. eor 2tla:t LI A.rraeh. raorrh Ct'olm ?,ofi i"379 M68 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 I 9 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a AGO LAST RECE IVED NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY SINCE A I'IEE FRIDAY OR I,JHENEVER IT WAS LAST WEEK THAT YOU THOSE DOCUMENTS TO REVIEW THEM? I HAVEA . J UDGE PH I LL I PS : WHY DON I T I^,E TAKE A RECESS BEFORE YOU GET INTO THAT? I,,E \,II LL RECESS UI.,tTI L 10:50. (rne pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT L0:55 A.M., To RECONVENE AT 10:50 A.M., THIS SAI4E DAY.) F ?. O.8or 2tl(t lJ nd.aen. rbrrh Ca,orar ?ratl r.380 .16 q I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t1 18 19 20 2l o.) OQ 24 OR PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:50 A.h JUDGE PHILLIPS: HAVE WE GoT A QUICK ESTIMATE OF THE PROJECTED TIME HERE BEFORE WE START? ,MR. LEONARD: IF I AI4 PREPARED AS I THINK I AI.,t, I THINK DR. HOFELLER'S TESTItIONy hrILL PROBABLY I{L\I' TAKE US BEYOND THE LUNCH HOUR AND MAYBE BEFORE ON DIRECT. AND HE IS OUR LAST WITNESS. I DON'T KNOW IF COUNSEL HAS ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ON REBUTTAL WITNESSES OR NOT. MS. VJ I NNER : AS I I NFORI4ED MR. LEONARD TH I S MORN I NG, I CURRENTLY I NTEND TO CALL TI.JO REBUTTAL wITNESSES, BOTH OF WHOM I BELIEVE WILL BE l5-t"lINUTE W III.{ESSES. .JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I,JE WILL TAKE AN HOUR LUNCH RECESS AND SEE IF },J5 CAN MOVE ON TOI^/ARD A COMPLETI0I.I HOPEFULLY AROUND MID-AFTERNOON. llE WILL HAVE A F=W HOUSEKEEPING THINGS TO TAKE CARE OF THEN. BUT WE !{ONIT IMPOSE ANY ARTIFICIAL BARRiERS CN AIJYBODY. BUT IF WE COULD MOVE TOVIARD THAT, IT SEEMS TO ME WE COULD COI4E PRETTY CLOSE TO IT. VJE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO THE POINT OF TOTAL ABSORPTION. (eo To THE NEXT PAGE. ) - P. O- lor 2ttd lJ R.bhh, Nodn cuoril 27atr 1 381 1M7 0 I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.A571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA (wnE RE UPON, THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RSSUMED THE STAND ANID TESTIFIED FURTHER A5 TOTIOWS: ) D I R E C T E X A M I I.I A T I O N 1C:52,q.M. (RESUMED) BY MR. LEONARD: A DR. HOFELLER, YOU APPEAR HERE UNDER SUBPOENA; DO YOU NOT? A I DO. A AND YOU ARE NOT APPEARING HERE IN YOUR OFFI_ CIAL CAPACITY ON BEHALF OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL C OMM I TTEE ? A NO; I AM NOT. I AM ON VACATION. A NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMiNE THE DATA BASE THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAD RECE IVED SOMETI ME LAST 'dEEK FROM DR. GROFMAN ? MS. t,INNER i .' I OB.JECT. HE DID NOT TESTIFY HE RECEIVED IT FROI4 DR. GROFMAN. BY MR. LEONAP.D: A T,JELL, WHOEVER YOU RECE IVED I T FROM, I T I S DR. GROFMAN' S MATERIAL. HAVE YOU SATI5FIED YOURSEI-F OF THAT FACT? A YES; I HAVE. A AND IIAVE YOU EXAMINED IT? ^ P. O. Box 2tlfB LJ R.r.lgt, Nodh C.roI6. 27Ol I i382 l',1 7 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 l5 r6 17 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA - P. O. lor 2tlas lJ erblgn, tsdh c.rolln. 27olt A YES; I HAVE. a NouJ, You HEARD DR. GROFMAN'S TESTIMONY HERE IN THE COURTROOM? A YES; I DID. a - Do You HAVE AN OPIIIION WI TH RESPECT T0 1.'/IiETHER OR NOT THE I'IATERIALS TESTIFIED TO BY DR. GROFI{AN AND RELIED UPON BY DR. GROFMAN WAS SUFFICIENT TO SUPPORT THE CONCLUSIONS THAT HE DREVJ WITH RESPECT TO SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT R,ACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING AND ELECTIOI'IS IN NORTH CAROL INA? A I DO. a U,HAT IS THAT OPINION? A T4Y OPINION IS THAT THE MATERIALS ARE NOT COMPLETE ENOUGH TO DRAW THAT CONCLUSION. a oN WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR OPINION? A TO BEGIN W.ITH, DR- enormal'r HAS PRESENTED A RATHER EXTENSIVE COI4PUTER ANALYSIS OF SOME VOTING STATIS- TICS AND REGISTRATION STATISTICS IN NORTH CAROLINA WHICH PERTAIN TO TWO DIFFERENT EXAMINATIONS. FIRST IS THE EXTREME CASE AI',IALYSI S. AND SECOND I S HI S REGRESS I ON ANALYS I 5 . IHAVESoMEVERYGREATMISGIVINGSABoUTTHE EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, IN THAT THE NUMBER OF EXTREME CASE PRECINCTS IN SOME OF THE AREAS IS EXTREMELY SMALL' AND I DO}.II T REALLY BEL I EVE THAT YOU CAI.'I I''IAKE VAL I D PRO'JECTI ;,lr\rr .( .J JJ I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 9' 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN THE TOTAL ELECT/-)'IATE BASED UPON THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN EXTREME CASE PRE- C INCTS. I THINK THIS WOULD BE TRUE IN BOTH BLACK AND t^/HITE PRECINCTS IN WHICH, FOR INSTANCE, IF A SMALL I\IUMBER OF WHITES.qIPEAR IN THE EXTREME CASE PRECII..ICTS, THOSE l^,llITES MIGHT HAVE SOCIOECONOMIC FACTORS '/HI Cl-{ DI FFER CONSIDERABLY FROM THOSE OF I,/HITES IN MIXED PRECINC'I S. THE SAME WOULD BE TRUE FOR BLACKS. SO I THINK THAT TO RELY TOTALLY ON EXTREME CASE DATA WOULD BE ERRONEOUS. I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT DR. GROFMAN DID. BUT TO RELY ON THAT WOULD BE ERRONEOUS. I THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME FURTHER PROBLEMS II.I TERMS OF THE REGRESSION MODEL IN THAT THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE, FOR INSTANCE, OhI THE NUMBER OF BLACKS AND THE NUMBER OF WHITES WHO TURNED OUT TO VOTE IN MIXED PREC i NCTS. AI.JD THERE I S NO REAL *'O'O* WHY ONE SHOULD RELY UPON THE FACT THAT THAT TURNOUT MIGHT,BE AS IT WAS I N THE EXTREME CASE PREC I NCT.S. A YES. TELL THE COURT WHAT GOING TO REFER TO, IF ANY. HERE, AT LEAST-- THE MODEL I.EAD TO AN EXAMPLE THERE. EXHIBITS YOU ARE A I I,IOULD LIKE TO REFER TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 1I+(B). EXHI BIT 14(B) TS A SUMMA]'ION OF THE HOUSE GENERAL I ALSO HAVE CASES_-A CASE \^JHICH I DOUBT THAT THE MATHEMATICS OF BEL I EVABLE CONCLUS I OI.JS , lF I CAN DRAf.l F l. O. Bor fll& u RrrdC[r, xdn C.roltn. 276tr /Jr-' rJog,! .rL t47 3 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 t1 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L o, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA ELECTIoN Il'l NovEMBER oF 1980 FoR MECKLENBURG couNTy. IF I UNDERSTAND DR. GROFMANIS CALCULATIONS FP.OM HIS REGRESSION MODEL, ON PAGE 2 LOOKING AT COLUMN t, 2, 5-*COtUMN 5--I NOTE THAT THREE CANDIDATES RECEI\/ED PE\CENT OF. THE WHITE VOTE. NOW, COMMONLY, IF YOU RECEIVE A PERCENTACE OR A DECI;YAL PERCENTAGE OF A CERTAIN VOTE AND YOU KNOW I,JHAT THE VOTE IS YOU RT:CEIVED, IF YOU DIVIDE THE PERCENTAGE BACK INTO THE NUMBER OF VOTES YOU SHOULD GET THE TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES IN THE POPULATION. AND HE HAS HERE NUMBERS RANGING FROM OR VLTI.[:) RANGING FROM 34,429 ON CANDIDATE t2 P.ECEIVING 36 PERCENT OF THE WHITE VOTE AND ANOTHER CANDIDATE, CANDIDATE 14, RECEIVING 41,496 pERCENT--I AM SORRy--41,496 VOTES AND Tt SAME 36 PERCENT OF THE VOTE. a Nol{, WHEN you REFER rO rne WHITE VOTE, yOU ARE POINTING TO THE FACT THAT THOSE CANDIDATES RECEIVED NO BLACK VOTES AT ALL; IS T}IAT CORRECT? THAT I S CORRECT. OTHERWISE, IT TJOULD BE VERy DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN THE MIX OF THE VOTES. WE ALSO HAVE A SITUATION HERE IN WHICH A CANDIDATE RECEIVING SUPPOSEDLY ACCORDING TO THE MODEL ]6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE RECEIVED 34,429 VOTES. Tr-tAT IS CANDIDATF_ t2. AND A CANDIDATE IIHO IS PURPORTED TO RECEIVE ]O PERCENT OF THE voTE RECEIVED 37,610 VOT5S. 3, 4, 36 a P. O. Bor 2allt;} lJ n.blgh. }{onh C..o[6. 27Cfi .L J T-,, U' 117 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 o I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 r8 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]' PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2al6 LJ i<ir. xonh C.,o{n 27a[ a BEFORE yOU GO FURTHER, WHEN yOU DO THE MATHEMATICS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU AS TO THE RANGE OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THE LOWEST TO THE HIGHEST WHO WOULD HAVE VOTED IN THAT ELECTION BASED ON THE REGRESSION ANALYS I S ? A WELL, I DID SOME CALCULATIONS HERE. AND I DECIDED THAT BASED UPON THE DATA WHICH HE HAS PRESENTED, THE TURNOUT FOR THE HOUSE ELECTION OR THE ELECTION IN GENERAL COULD HAVE RANGED ANYWHERE FROM 35r963 TO t06,23 NOW, WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THAT THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS IN USING REGRESSIOI.I TND MAKING SURE THAT THE RESULISOF THE REGRESSION MATCH BACK TO THE REALITY OF THE DATA. a |{HAT ELSE DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THE PROPORTION OF WHITE VOTES TO THE CANDIDATES FROM THAT EXHIBIT? A WELL, AT LEAST FROM THAT EXHIBIT, IF YOU WANT T'O YOU CAN CALCULATE IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF BLACK VOTI:RS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE ELECTION FROM CANDIDATE LINES 8 AND 9. I AM NOT SURE WHETI-IER THAT IS TERRIBLY RELEVANT, THOUGH. A ANYTHING ELSE YOU I.'ANT TO CONCLUDE FROM THAT EXHIBIT? A NO. A WHAT ELSE DID YOU CONCLUDE UPON REVIEW OF THE DATA ? -t -iL a-,, uKM75 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l oo o4t 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN MY EXPERIENCE OF VOTING BEHAVIOR, THERE IS NO WAY TO VALIDLY ASSUME THAT ONE POPULATION VOTES HOMOGENEOUSLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE RANGE OR ANOTHER POPULATION. AND WE HAVE A SITUATION I]ERi IN NORTH CAROLINA.UNLIKE MANY OTHER SITUATIONS IN I,JHICH THESE REGRESSIONS MAY HAVE BEEN DONE I^'I-IERE WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF COUNTIES AND A WIDE RANGE OF CITIES. AND SO IN LAY TERMS, THE RULES BY WHICH THESE VOTERS MAY BE OPERATING MAY BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. ONE WOULD FIND IN ANY ELECTION ANALYSIS THAT A DETERMINATION OF THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF WHITES THAT CROSSED OVER. AND VOTED FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE AND THE DETERMINATION OF THE NUMBER OF BLACKS WHO MIGHT HAVE CROSSED OVER AND VOTED FOR THE WHITE CANDIDATE CAIIINOT BE BASED UPON THE ASSUMP- TION THAT ALL THE BLACKS VOTED BLACK AND ALL THE I.'HITES VOTED WHITE. ALL YOU CAl.l SHOW, PERHAPS, HERE IS YOUR ESTII4ATED NET EFFECT OF TldE ELECTION, l'lOT THE BEHAVIOR OF INDIVIDUAL VOTERS. AI.IOTHER THiNG: IF I HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN TRYING TO GA'THER DATA TO PROVE THE CASE, I WOULD HAVE MUCH PREFERRED--FOR INSTANCE, IN A CITY LIKE MECKLENBURG. TO GO BACK IN AND FIND OUT I,JHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBERS OF WHITES AND BLACK VOTERS WERE !'II-{O CAI4E TO THE POLLS AND VOTED. I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE a P. O. Bor ztB LJ R.bdr. Nodh c.rolm ?7!lr 'i '-) r-, i JL e-, ur , 476 I 2 3 4 D 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.36],9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA WAY TO TRY AND DETERMINE WHAT MIGHT HAVE GONE ON IN THA ELECTION. A IS THAT INFORMATION AVAILABLE FROM THE VOTING RECORDS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A -TO THE BEST OF MY BELIEF, IT IS. A WHAT ELSE DID YOU OBSERVE? A DR. GROFMAN APPEARS TO GIVE A VERY GREAT WEIGHT TO THE CORRELATION BETWEEN TWO VARIABLES, WHERE ONE VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF BLACK REGISTRATIOI.I AI.ID THE OTHER VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF PERFORMANCE BY THE BLACK CANDIDA HS. HE WENIT THROUGH THE DATA. AND HE LISTED OUT THAT THERE WERE CORRELATION COEFFICIENTS THAT WEP.E EXTREMELY HIGH. AND THERE WERE SIGNIFICANCES THAT WERE EXTREMELY LOW, WHICH MADE THEM VERY GOOD. AND I DONIT ARGUE THAT THOSE CORRELATIONS AND SIGNIFICANCE REPRESENT THE RELATIONSHIP OF THOSE TWO VARIBLES. I I,JOULD JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT MY OPINION IS THAT ONE WOULD FIND THAT SORT OF CORRELATION BETWEEN WHITE AND BLACK VOTING BEHAVIOR IN OTHER RACES WHERE WHITES AND BLACKS WERE CANDIDATES AND IN OTHER RACES IN WHICH OTHER ISSUES WERE AT STAKE_-THAT THE PRESENCE OF HIGH DEGREE OF CORRELATI,ON AND HIGH SIGNIFICA.NCE DOES NOT REAI.LY PROVE THE CAUSALITY OF HIS .JUDGMENT THAT THERE I5 S I GI.II F I CANT RAC IALLY POLAR I ZED BLOC VOT I NG . P. O- Bd Ul6 lJ R.bleh, Ncdh caiolrM 276I r338 M77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 r6 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.a57\ PHOENIX. ARIZONA IT IS VERY ACADE14ICALLY EXCITII..IG TO HAVE THAT CORRELATE {;O WELL. BUT I AM NOT SURE THAT IT WOULD BE FAIR TO DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT IT PROVES HIS POINT, ESPECIALLY WHEN EVIDENCE IS NOT PRESENTED AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THOSE KINDS OF VOTING BEHAVIORS ARE PRESENT ANY_ WHERE ELSE IN THE STATE OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE NATION. WHAT OTHER OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE? AGAIN, IN MY OPINION I THINK THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN ELECTORAL ANALYSIS TO USE JUST THE RESULTS OF VOTES AS A MODEL FOR DETERMINING I^.|HAT HAPPENED I N AN ELECT I ON. THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER oF FACTORS--SOME OF WHI CH ,qRE QUANT I FIABLE, SOME OF WHI CH AR.E NON_QUANTIFIABLE--WHICH ARE PRESENT IN ANY ELECTION IN ANY GIVEN YEAR, SUCH AS THE POSITIONS OF THE CANDIDATI: ON ISSUES. AFTER ALL, ELECTIONS ARE DECIDED BY ISSUES. I THINK IT WOULD BE NAIVE TO ASSUME THAT EVERY ELECTION IS DECIDED UPON THE RACE OF THE CANDIDATE. FINANCING IS AN ISSUE. THE GENERAL APPROVAL RATING OF THE CANDIDATE IS AN ISSUE. THE CANDIDATETS SKILL AS A CANDIDATE AND THE SKILL OF THE PERSONS WHO ARE MANAGING HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN ARE IMPORTANT. NAI'IE I.D. IS IMPOR- TANT. BALLOT POSITION IS IMPORTANT. THE GENERAL ATMOS- PHERE IN THAT CAMPAIGN YEAR IS IT1PORTANT. TII[ SAME CHARACTERISTICS FOR THE OTHER CANDIDATES ARE ALSO I MPORTANT. F P. O. lor i,al*l tJ R.baori. Nod c.rorir 276t1 L'?l;roa(JU.j 1 o 3 "78 4 6 6 I 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l rrq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SO I GUESS WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THAT THE CORRELATION AI'IALYSIS AND THE STATISTICAL SIGNI_ FICANCE AND ALL THAT DATA IN THE PRINTOUTS IS ONLY ONE FACTOR IN TRYING TO LEAD TO AN EVALUATION OF THE ELECTIO AND THEREFO.RE, ONE SHOULD NOT NECESSARILY GIVE THE WEIGHT THAT ONE MIGHT FEEL ON THE CORRELATION OVER TO THE OTHER FACTORS WHEN SOMEBODY IS MAKING A DETERMINATION. A NOW, SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION OF POSITION ON THE BALLOT, DID YOU LOOK AT A MECKLENBURG COUNTY ELECTION WHERE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A FACTOR? A I DID. a TELL THE COURT THE BAC!'.GROU|{D FOR THAT, !,JHy YOU LOOKED AT IT AND l^rHAT YOU CONCLUDE FROM IT. A WELL, IN THE i9B2 HOUSE RACE, CANDIDATE RICHARDSON, WHO VJAS BLACK, LOST BY 250 VOTES. A THIS IS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION? A THIS WAS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION. I I.JAS INTERESTED AS TO WHY THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED. ONE CONCLU_ SION I DREW FROM LOOKING AT THE DATA WAS THAT THERE \,JAS A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF VOTES RECEIVED BY RICHARDSON IN HIGHLY BLACK PRECINCTS AS FP.CM BERRY, WHO WAS THE OTHER BLACK CANDIDATE. AND THAT DIFFERENCE EXCEEDED THE DIFFERENCE IN THE VOTE. I.N ADDITION TO THAT, I WAS INTERESTED--AS I A IN ALL ELECTIONS--ON BALLOT PLACEI1ENT, l^IHICH IS VERY H P. O. gd 26l(t LJ n blCr, Nod C.roilo 2r0tt ,-., ,-) r) rJ u: t-/-r- ,,7 9 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 l0 11 12 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA IMPORTAI{T. A LOT OF LEGISLATURES HAVE MODI FIED ELECTIO LAWS THROUGHOUT THE STATES OV5R THE YEARS TO ROTATE THE BALLOT IN ORDER TO GIVE FAIRNESS TO THAT FACTOR. THE INFORMATION THAT I WAS GIVEN IS THAT NORTH CAROLINA CALLS FOR ROTATION ON THE PRIT,IARY BALLOT BUT DOES NOT CALL FOR ROTATION ON THE GENERAL BALLOT. MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO THE }IEARSAY AND MOVE TO STRIKE IT UNLESS HE SAYS WHERE HE GOT IT FROM OR WHAT THE BASIS OF THAT KNOWLEDGE IS. MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO GO INTO THAT, IF THE COURT WANTS ME TO. .JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I THINK YOU BETTER QUALIFY HIM ON THE BASIS OF HIS KNOWLEDGE. BY MR. LEONARD: A NOW, I^IITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY OF TJALLOT PLACEMENT AS. BETWEEN PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTIONS, }JHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU MAKE TO DETERMINE WHAT THE NORTH CAROLINA LAW.WAS OI.I THAT SUB.JECT? A I REQUESTED THnr JIM I^'ALLACE FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERALIS OFFICE LOOK AT THE LAW AND FIND OUT WHAT THE LAW WAS WITH REGARD TO THE BALLOT. AND HE DID SO. AND MY CONCLUSION IS BASED UPON THE INFORMATION WHICH HE GAVE TO ME. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: CANIT }^.lE JUDICIALLY NOT ICE_-- - P. O. Bor tta LJ tbrian, Nod C.ro[n. 27itr :l 391 18 0 I o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L .ro 23 24 25 a PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MS . I^J I NNER : ( I nrrn Pos i NG ) I 'i^:r)u Lt) L I KE TO BE TOLD I^JHAT THE STATUTE I S, S INCE I T DOES NOT COMPORT WITH MY KNOI^/LEDGE OF WHAT THE LAW IS. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DOESN'T THE COURT SIMPLY SAY-THAT WE I"JILL TAKE JUt.)ICIAL NOTICE oF I^,IHAT THE LAW IS? AND IF IT IS AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE DOCTOR TIJINKS IT IS, WE }^IILL DISREGARD ANYTHING HE SAYS ABOUT IT. MS. WINNER: BY MR. LEONARD: THAT IS FiNE. a WHAT DrD MR. WALLACE TELL yOU t{AS THE PROCE- DURE IN NORTH CAROLINA? A IT WAS AS I STATED--THAT THERE I,JAS ROTATION IN THE PRIMARY. AND THERE T.JA5 ALPHABETIC POSITIONING IN THE GENERAL ELECTION. A WHAT T,IAS THE VOTE D I FFERENT I AL BY WH I CH MR . RICHARDSON FAI LED TO BE F:LECTED I; THE GENERAL ELECTIOT.I? A 250 VOTES. A WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL VOTE WAS THAT? A I BELIEVE IT WAS ROUGHLY .3 OF 1 PERCENT_-.29 SPECI FICALUY. A WHERE DID YOU FIND MR. RICHARDSON TO BE ON THE BALLOT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IN MECKLEI.JBURG COUNTY IN r982? A LAST. A DR. HOFELLER, FROI4 YOUR EXPERIENCE IN ELECTI F P. O. Bor 2tl0s u rLbrcir. Hoflh Ctror,n. 276il aloUtr_r- r_' S1 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 10 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, Do YoU HAVE AN oPII'IIoN AS TO WHETHER OR NOT MR. RICHARDSONIS PLACEMENT ON THE BALLO IN THAT ELECTION WAS A SIGNIFICAI,IT FACTOR IN HIS DEFEAT? A IN MY OPINION, I THINK IT COULD BE l^JE IG|IED AS A S I GN I FI CAI)JT FACTOR. a WHAT I\,AS THE PEIICENTAGE OF VOTES IN |4ECKLEN_ BURG COUNTY IN THAT ELECTION THAT YOU FOUND VTAS THE SUBJECT OF DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS? A I AM SORRY. I WOULD HAVE TO G:T THE EXHIBIT OUT HERE. ARE YOU REFERRING TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 14(D)? YES? A COULD YOU STATE THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE? A WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT WAS ANALYZED IN THE GROFMAN ANALYSIS? A I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION. a WHEN you Loo-KED AT THE EXHIBIT, TIHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF TItE ACTUAL VOTE CAST THAT WAS THE DATA BASE THAT DR. GROFMAN USED TO COMEITO HIS CONCLUSION? A I UNDERSTAND NOW. CANDIDATE 1, BERRY, RECEIVED 92 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE ACCORDING TO THE REGRESSION ESTIMATE, 86 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREME CASE HE RECEIVED 42 PERCENT OF THE \.'HITE VOTE ACCORDING TO REGRESSION AND 43 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREII4E ESTIMATE. RICHARDSON HAD SIMILAR FIGURES OF 88 AND 82 FOR THE BLACK VOTE AND 29 AND 29 FOR THE !',HITE VOTE. F P. O. lor 2A16 lJ i.rdoh, |adn C.(h ?rrrl .J o, KMB 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L o9 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876-4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A DID YOU MAKE AN ANA'/SIS OF GINGLES EXHIBITS 16(E) AND 16(F)? A I I.,|CULD LIKE, IF I COULD BE ALLOh'ED TO, TO MAKE ONE FURTHER COMMENT ON THIS EXHIBIT. A AS LONG AS YOU HAVE IT IN FRONT OF YOU, PLEASE DO. MS. WINNER: I I)B.JgCT TO T!IE ',ITNESS TESTIFYING WITHOUT A QUESTION. MR. LEONARD: WE ARE GOII..IG TO GO THRO EACH ONE OF THESE EXHIBITS, IF THE COURT PLEASE. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONTT YOU ASK HIM IF HE HAS ANY FURTHER CONCLUSIONS ON 14(D)? BY MR. LEONARD: a ARE YOU STILL ON 14(B), DR. HOFELLER? A 14(D). A WITH RESP.ECT TO GIN6LES EXHI BIT 14(D), WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE WITH RESPECT TO THAT IN YOUR ANALYS I S OF DI?. GROFMAN I S, TE ST I MONY ? A I WOULD .JUST LIKE TO ADD THAT DR. GROFMAN HAS PRESENTED Tt^,O WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE BLACK AND WHI TE VOTE IN THESE ELECTIONS. OI.IE OF THEM IS THE PERCET\ITAGE OF ALL OF THE VOTES THAT WERE CAST FOR ALL OF THE CANDI- DATES IN THESE MULTIPLE CANDIDATE ELECTIONS IN THE I'1ULTI- MEI'4BER DISTRICTS. THAT IS NOT OII THIS EXHIBIT. THAT IS oN ANOTHER EXHIBIT, I B=l-lEVE. P. O. Bor -lGt lJ hd.aeh, taodrr c.rolro 2?crr ''' (\ a..' , -,- i) iq. i'18 J I a, 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA HE PRESENTS ON THIS EXHIBIT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE PERSONS WHO CAST BALLOTS IN THE ELECTION WHO VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE OR THE WHITE CAI,IDIDATE. THIS HAS SOME DEGREE OF ERROR IN IT, IN THAT THERE IS A PRESUMPTI HERE THAT THE SAME NUI.IBER OF VOTERS WHO WENT TO THE POLLS AND DROPPED A BALLOT IN THE BALLOT BOX MARKED ANYBODY IN THIS HOUSE ELECTIOII,I. THERE IS A FACTOR CALLED RoLL- OR VOTER FATIGUE OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, IN WHICH AS YOU GO DOWN THE BALLOT THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE. THAT IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS PRESENT IN ALMOST EVERY ELECTION. BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, ,qLSO IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE AND I THINK IT WOULD BE ILLUSTRATIVE TO NOTE THAT PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE THE CANDIDATE WHO RECEIVED THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF VOTES IN THIS ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE ACCORDI NG TO H I S REGRESS I ON I'4ODEL, 58 PERCENT OF THE VOTE WHEN COMP,qRED TO THE AMOUNT OF VOTE THAT BERRY, FOR INSTANCE, RECEIVED--HE GOr -72.4 PERCENT AS MUCH SUPPORT AS CANDIDATE II+. IT IS SORT OF LIKE TAKING A VOTER SURVEY WHERE YOU WOULD SAY--AND PARDON ME FOR THE EXAMPLE--PRESIDENT REAGAN NOW IS 42 PERCENT IN A HEAD-TO-HEAD POLL WITH MONDALE, FOR iNSTANCE--AND THAT IS NOT AN El'IDORSEMENT-- BEING ]8 PERCENT. NO\,J, I T I SI.I I T AS I MPORTANT NEARLY TO SAY THAT F 2. O.8d 2ala lJ i.ngh. Nornl c.dr{ ?ratr ..LJJJ 8t+ I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 a PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457], PHOENIX ARIZONA REAGAN GOT 42 PERCENT BUT AS TO SAY THAT REAGAN LED MONDALE BY I+ PERCENT. THERE IS A PRESUMPTIoN THAT THAT UNACCOUNTED FOR 20 PERCENT I S GO I NG TO DO SOMETI-1ING WHEN THEY ACTUALLY COME AND CAST THEIR BALLOTS. SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU MIGHT ALSO WANT TO LOOK AT THIS DATA IN AI{OTHER I^IAY TO SAY WHAT PERCENTAGE DID THE BLACK CANDIDATE RECEIVE IN RELATION- SHIP TO THE PERCENTAGE THAT THE HIGHEST RANKING WHITE CANDIDATE RECEIVED. THIS IS ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT TH DATA. A DID YOU, AS A MATTIR OF FACT, MAKE SOME COMPU- TATIONS FOR THE PROPORTION OF WHITE VOTES THAT THESE VARIOUS CANDIDATES RECEIVED FROM THE DATA ON GiNGLES EXHIBIT I4(D)? A I DID. A WHAT PERCENTAGE USING iNO' METHODOLOGY DID THE BLACK CANDIDATE BERRY, CANDIDATE NUMBER I, RECEIVi:? A 72.4. A AND WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE I,IHITE VOTE DID CANDIDATE NUMBER 8, CANDIDATE RICHARDSON, RECEIVE OF THE I^/H I TE VOT E ? A 50. A NOI.,, VJITH RESPECT TO THAT EXHI BIT, DID YOU DETERMINE HO'/I MANY EXTREME CASES WERE REPRESEI'JTED BY DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS? F P. O. lor 2alfi lJ R.hach, Nodh C.oxn. 2tall ',t .\ t', li -d-ii70 11B 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 OE, PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAtEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 1 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A TO THE BEST OF MY KI.JOWLEDGE, THAT WAS--I BELIEVE THREE OR FOUR PRECINCTS AMOUNTED TO ROUGHLY 5 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS. a DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT AN ANALYSIS WHICH REPRESENTS TVJO OR THREE PRECINCTS AND 5 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS IS STATISTI- CALLY SIGNIFICANT? A I CERTAINLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD DE- FEND THE POS I T I ON THAT I T I^'OULD BE REPRESENTAT I VE OF HOW THAT TOTAL POPULATION WOULD BEHAVE. a NOW, I.JOULD yOU REFER--LET ME ASK yOU: yOU TESTIFIED TO GINGLES EXHIBITS 1'+(B) RruO (D). DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO THOSE EXHIBITS? NO; I DONTT. A ALL RIGHT. 16(E) aruo 16(F) ANO ASK II IN EACH OF THOSE TWO TO FIND THOSE? I TAKE 'OY TO GINGLES EXHIBITS YOU SPECIFICALLY TO TURN TO PAGE EXHIBITS. HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE NOT YET. I HAVE. WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM AN ANAL'TSI S OF THOSE TWO EXHIBITS? A WELL, I AM SORRY. AND IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE FIR.ST PAGE, YOU WILL NOTE UNLESS I READ INCORRECTLY THAT THEY ARE BOI r-l l-t'lE NOVEMBER I 82 GENERAL ELECT I ON. ANt) THEY ARE INDEiD THE SAME ELECTION. F P. O. Bor 2lllxl u R.hgh. Nodh C.rotin. 27ctt '; ..) rl |, -I,JJ ':MB 6 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 t3 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA A AND IN I^JHAT COUNTY? A I N DURHAI4 COUNTY. AI.{D I SEE HERE AN EST I MATE OF THE ESTII.IATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF BLACK VOTERS AND THE ESTIMATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF WHITE VOTERS IN ONE DOCUMENT OF 56 FOR THE BLACK, 4g FOR THE VIHITE. A LETIS IDENTIFY THE DOCUMENT. WHAT IS IT? A THAT IS (E)_-GINGLES EXHII}IT 16(E). A ALL RIGHT. A IT STATES THE B!-ACK VOTER TURNOUT AS 55 PER- CENT AND THE WHITE VOTER TURNOUT AS 49 PERCENT. AND GINGLES EXHIBIT 16(T) TSTIMATES THE BLACK TURNOUT AT 4B PERCENT AND THE WH I TE TURNOUT AT I+5 PERCENT. NOW, IF MY UNDERSTANDING OF ELECTIONS IS CORRECT, THE SAITE GROUP OF PEOPLE CAST THE SAME BALLOTS FOR THE SAME OFFI CES. AND THEREFORE, THOSE F I GUiIES OUGHT TO BE THE SAME; OR I AM NOT CLEAR ON EXACTLY WHAT THIS ANALYSi S MEANS. a so rHAT GINGLES^EXHIBIT 16(E) WrrH RESPECT TO REGRESSION ESTIMATES FOR THE BLACK VOTERS AI.ID WT{ITE VOTERS \.JAS 53 PERCENT AND 47 PERCENT RESPECTIVELY? A IT IS. A AND THEN THE CONDESCRIPTIVE OR EXTREME CASb ANALYSIS ESTIMATE IS 56 AND '+9 RE5?ECTIVELY? A IT IS. a AND OrJ EXHrBrr 16(F), YOUR POINT IS THAT THOSE A P. O. Bd 2tlN u n.btoh. Nodh C.rdrn. 27ort ,i !. ;lJt i'io ./ I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA PERCENTAGES ARE DI FFERENT OR LOWER OR BOTH? A I^,ELL, THEY ARE BOTH LOT^,ER AND D I FFERENT. THE ONE POINT ABOUT THEM, PERHAPS, IS THAT THEY RANK THE RACES THE SAME ON TURNOUT ON THE TWO EXHIBITS. A WHAT DO YOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT? A WELL, I CONCLUDE FROM THAT THAT EITHER THERE IS AN AMBIGUITY ON THE DOCUMENTS AS TO WHAT THESE PARTI CULAR FI GURES MEAN--MY UNDERSTAI.IDI NG THAT TURNOUT IS THE NUMBER OF REGISTERED VOTERS WHO COME TO THE POLLS- AI']) A LOT OF TESTII4ONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THIS BASIS oN FI GURES SUCH AS THESEi OR THE DATA ARE S IMPLY ,'^IRONG. a ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID yOU EXAt'lINE GINGLES EXHIBIT 1](K)? EXCUSE ME. DID YOU HAVE AI'IY OTHER OBSERVATIONS I.'ITH RESPECT TO_-- A (IruTTRPOSING) I .'UST VJANT TO CLARIFY U'HAT I AM SAYING, IT I'1AY WELL BE--_ a (tNrenPosING) coulD You usE THE BLACKBoARD? WOULD THAT HELP? A NO. NO. I DONIT NEED THE BLACKBOARD. ON TH|ISE TWO EXHIBITS, IT MAY WI:LL BE THAT THAT FIGURE REPRESENTS THE TURNOUT FOR THAT RACE--FOR THE HOUSE RACE AND FOR THE SENATE RACE. I AM NOT SURE. BUT IT DOESNIT REPRESENT THE POTENTIAL NUMBERS OF BLACK AND WHITE VOTERS '/,JHO CAME TO THE POLLS OR THE TURNOUT OF THE POTENTIAL NUMBER OF REGISTERED BLACK AND WHITE VOTERS WH a P, O. Bor 281(t lJ h.blqh, Nodh C.rolm 2IGtr i399 :MBB I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 l6 L7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA COULD HAVE COME TO THE POLLS. AND SINCI: TURNOUT IS GOING To BE AT ISSUE HERE I THINK THAT THESE FIGURES ARE SOT1EWHAT AMBIGUOUS. AND IT SHOULD BE CLARIFIED AS TO I^IHAT THEY ARE. A ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THOSE EXHIBITS? A NO. a Now, vJouLD you Go, eLEASE, TO EXHI B IT lr(K)__ rfie MECKLENBURG ELECTToN FoR THE sENATE rN 1982? A YES. a Do you NEED TO COMPARE THAT WrTH 13(M) eNO (O) h,H ICH I BELIEVE ALL RELATE TO THE SAME ELECTION? WHAT DID YOU DETERMINE FROM YOUR EXAMINATION OF THOSE EXHIBIT A GIIIGLES EXHIBITS 13(K) Ri.IO 1](M) ARE, AS I UNDERSTAND THEM, A SUBSET OF 1](O). IT IS REALLY ONE ELECTION EXAMINATION WITH A SUBDIVISION OF THE ELECTORATE THE INTERESTING POINT.TO NOTE N'*' PERHAPS_-AND I DONIT THINK IT IS TOO GREATLY SIGNIFICANT_-IS THAT THE PERCEN- TAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK IN CABARRUS COUNTY WAS 37 PERCENT. AND THE PERCENTAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IS 3I PERCENT. THERE IS SOME INFERENCE, PERHAPS, IN PREVIOUS I'ESTIMONY THAT CABARRUS COUNTY TOTALLY REJECTED POLK; OF HIS REJECTION BY CABARRUS COUNTY OR HIS PLACEMENT IN CABARRUS COUNTY COST HII'1 THE ELECTION. A POLK IJAS THE BLACK CA}IDIDATE IN THE NOVEMBER A P. O. tor irardt Ll Fd.rgh, ilod crrdtil 216rr 1400 :MB 9 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 t3 14 15 16 t1 18 19 20 2l rr.) 23 24 25o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.a57 1 PHOENIX, ARIZONA I 82 SENATE GENERAL ELSCTION Itt POLK AND CABARRUS COUNTIES? THAT IS CORRECT. AND HE RAN_-HE GOT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTE IN CABARRUS? IS IT BLACK OR WHITE VOTE? A THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE !^IHITE VOTE IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN HE DID IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY. DR. HOFELLER, IN DR. GROFMANIS DIRECT TESTI- MONY HE MADE SOME ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT THERE HAD BEEN THREE BLACK PEOPLE I^IHO HAD BEEN APPOI NTED TO THE LEG I S- LATURE. AND WHEN THEY SOUGHT RE-ELECTION, THEY WERE DEFEATED. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION I,IITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNI FIC,{NCE OF THAT FACT WITH RESPECT TO R,qCIALLY POLARIZED VOTING OR BLOC VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA? WELL, I THINK PERHAPS THE SIGNIFICANT FIGURE_- THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HJS STATEMENT HERE IS THAT HE STATED THAT THERE WERE, I BELIEVE, THREE API]OINTED BLACKS WHO SOUGHT RE-ELECT ION AS APPOTNTED INCUMBE}.ITS. AND THEY ALL LOST. AND THEREFORE, ONE CAN DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT APPOINTED BLACK I\:CUMBENTS LOSE OR ARE VERY LIKELY TO LOSE IN IICR.TH C\i]OLINA. AT Tl'{E SAME TII{E, !-{E IS HAPPY TO SAY THAT BECAUSE TI:: FACT T!.]AT NO BLACK INCUMBENT I^/HO 1^IAS ELECTED HAC, ['/:R L')ST I^'HEN !1E SEEKS A:-ELECT ION HAS ABSOI-tJTELY NO BEA?.:NG ON THE PROsAIJI LITY OF A BLACK WHO I S AN INCUIUBENT F P. O. lor 2tlB Lf R.rash, t{off c.rdtm ,7otl L4A L .M9 0 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 l3 1{ 15 l6 t7 18 t9 20 2l o.t 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 t PHOENIX, ARIZONA BEING RE-ELECTID. i DONIT THINK YOU CAN PLAY THE STATISTICAL GAME BOTH WAYS. IF YOU ARE GOING To Wt:IGH PAST OCCURRENCE IN ONE CASE, YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY A SUCCESS BY WEIGHTING IT IN ANOTHER OCCURRENCE. A DID YOU FIND INSTANCES WHICH--EXCUSE ME. LET ME WITHDRAI^/ THAT. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE GROFMAN DATA To DETERMINE_-I AM SORRY. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE DATA I,JITH RESPECT TO THESE VARIOUS ELECTIONS I,/ITH RESPECT TO HI S CONCLUSIONS VERSUS THE CONCLUSIONS YOU MIGHT COME TO FROM ANALYZING THOSE ELECTIONS? A YES. a wFrp.T DID YOU CONCLUDE? A I CONCLUDED THAT THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE PRESENTED, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE STATISTICAL DATA AND IN TERMS OF THE OTHER EVIDENCE PRESENTED, TO SUPPORT A CONCLUSION ]HAT THERE '' A VIOLATION OF SECTION 2 IN THAT THERE IS SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZED BLOC VOTING. A WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSIQN ON? MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I AM SORRY. I HAVE LOST SOMETHIt.{G. I THOUGHT HE WAS TESTIFYING ABOUT APPOINTIVE INCUMBENTS VERSUS ELECTED INCUMBENTS. HAVE YOU MOVED ON? MR. LEONARD: YES. .JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I UNDERSTOOD THAT WE HAD F P. O. &r :'ll{I! lJ R.bloh. Nodh Crrqrn. 270il L4a2 :M91 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA GOT OFF ON ANOTHER QUESTION, MORE OR LESS. MS. WINNER: I APOLOGIZE. COULD I ASK THAT YOU TELL ME THE QUESTION ONCE AGAIN SO I CAN CATCH UP WITH THE TESTIMONY? MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO RESTATE I T. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WSULD YoU Do THAT, couNSEL, FOR MS. WINNER'S BENEFIT? MS. WINNER: BY , MR. I-EONARD: I APPRECIATE THAT. a AS you ANALYZED THE ELECTTONS THAT DR. GROI-|IAN TESTIFIED TO, DID YOU COME TO DIFFERI}IG CONCLUSIONS THAN HE DID WITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNIFICANCE--AND PARTICUL,qRLY THE SIGNIFICANCE AS IT HAS TO DO WITH RACIALLY OR VIITH SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA? A I DID a wouLD you EXPLALN TO THE COURT t.'Hy yOU CAME TO A D I FFERENT CONCLUS I ON--FI RST OF ALL, I^JHAT CONCLUS I ON DID YOU COME TO? A I CAI4E TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IN MY OPINION THE DATA DOES NOT SUPPORT A CONCLUSION OF SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZED BLOC VOTING. A YOU ALMOST SAID SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING? F P. O. eor ,l& lJ i.baoh, ionh c.rolm 27!!r i l'. ,i t') J- -iI \-I L, i.19 2 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l qo oe 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 1 PHOENIX, ARIZONA \ MS. I,'/INNER: WORDS I N THE MOUTH OF THE MR. LEONARD: BE CONSISTENT FOR THE BENEF NOT USING DIFFERING--- JUDGE PHI LL I PS : I OBJECT TO HIS PUTTING WITNESS. I AM HOPING THAT WE CAN IT OF THE COURT SO THAT WE ARE (IrurrRPoSING) I UIIDER- STAND THAT COUI.,ISEL ATTEMPTED TO REPEAT THE TESTTMONY OF DR. GROFMAN THAT HE DID ON THE BASIS OF THIS DATA CON- CLUDE THAT THERE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY--- MR. LEONARD: (TrurrRpoSING) SIGNIFI- CANT RACIALLY POLARiT.ED VOTING IN ELECTIONS. MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I REALLY DO NOT MEAN TO BE GETTING PICKY. IN THE DEPOSITION OF DR. HOFELLER, HE WAS USING SOME DIFFERENT TERMINOLOGY THAN GROFMAN AND TO MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS. AND SO I SIMPLY WANT TO BE CLEAR WHETHER HE IS USTruE DR. GROFI4AN'S WORDS OR HIS OWN WORDS. AND I THINK HE HAS MIXED THEM. BY MR. LEONARD: , a Now, WHAT DO yOU CITE TO THrS COURT TO SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSION THAT YOU DO NOT FIND SUBSTANTIALLY SIGI'II_ FICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROL I NA? A PLEASE REPEAT THAT. I WAS HONING iN IN YOUP. TERM THERE INSTEAD OF YOUR QUESTION. I AM SORRY. a GIVE THE COURT YOIJR EVIDENCE r^fl1y you REACHED F P. O. Bor atB lJ h.r.aeh. Noe C.roil[ arrtl 1_4a4 ,Y9 i 1 2 3 1 a 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPOBTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THAT CONCLUS ION. A OKAY. THANK yOU. F I RST OF ALL, MS. W I NIIER I S CORRECT IN THAT IN MY DEPOSITION I DEFINED THE TERMS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY. I DEFINED ''POLARIZED VOTING, '' BE IT SIGNIFICANT OR OTHERWISE, AS A SITUATION IN I^IHICH BLACK VOTE AND WHITE VOTE OR ANY OTHER VOTES DIFFER SIGI,IIFICANTLY. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU COULD TAKE ANY SUBSET OF THE POPUI..,\TION AND PULL THEM OUT OF THE MAIN BODY. AND THEIR BEHAVIOR IS DIFFERENT. I DEFINED i'ALOC VOTING'' AS THE CASE IN WHICH THAT POLARIZED VOTING BECOMES THE REASON WHY BLACK VOTERS ARE DENIED EQUAL PROTECTION OR THAT BLACK VOTERS ARE SHUT OUT OF THE ELECTION PROCESS AND CANIT ELECT THEIR CANDIDATES OR PARTICIPATE EQUALLY. I THINK THAT, THE AREA OF DEFINITION OF \.IHAT CONSTITUTES A SECTION 2 VIOLATION IS VERY HAZY. CERTAIN- LY IN THE CASE OF BOLDEN,WHERE THERE WAS A CITY COUNCIL THAT WAS TOTALLY AT LARGE AND WHERE THE BLACKS FAILED TO RECEiVE ANY SEATS WHEN THEY HAD 40 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THAT WAS NOT IN VIOLATION BECAUSE THERE WAS NO INTENT PROVEN-_CERTAINLY THAT IS NOT THE'STANDARD. AND INDEED, THEI REASON THAT CONGRESS PASSED SECTION 2-_* A P. O. gor 2at(l tJ e.aaCt. xdh c.roIil 27ctl 1405 149 4 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 o 10 11 1' 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT TO THE WITNESS STATING HIS INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW AND WHAT THE CONGRESSIONAL INTENT--_ JUDGE PHI LL I PS : (T Nrrnpos ING) SUSTAI N THE OBJECTION. AT PERIL OF SOME INTERVENTION, LET ME SAY THAT I THINK WE WILL BE BEST AIDED AND THAT COUNSELIS CASE I,IILL NOT SUFFER IF DR. HOFELLER IS REQUIRED TO GIVE HIS CONCLUSION IN WHATEVER TERMS HE WANTS TO EMPLOY TO DESCRIBE HIS OPINION AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIZED OR BLOC VOTING WITHOUT RELATING IT TO LEGAL CONCEPTIONS. AND LET THE COURT THEN DO THE BEST IT CAN WITH INTERPRETING WHATEVER CONFLICTS THERE ARE BETWEEN THE TI.IO EXPERTS AS THEIR TESTIMONY BEARS UPON THE ISSUE OF POL/TRIZED VOTING WITHIN A LEGAL FRAMEWORK. IN OTHER WORDS, I WILL SUSTAIN OBJECTIONS IN WHICH THE DOCTOR ATTE}4PTS TO DRA; INTO HIS TERMINOLOGY THE LEGAL STANDARD MR. LEONARD: MAY I MAKE AN OFFER OF PROOF? JUDGE PHILLIPS: GO AHEAD. MR. LOENARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I AM GOING TO STATE IT VERY BRIEFLY SO WE DONIT HAVE TO TAKE UP THE TIME OF PUTTING ON THE RECORD WHAT THE COURT HAS ALREADY SUSTAINED. DR. HOFELLER! S TESTIMONY WI LL SF:OW THAT HE F P. O. Eor 2u03 Ll R.hagn, Nodh C.ro{n 2rul i"406 M95 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 16 16 t7 18 19 n 2l 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.a571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IS INDEED A STUDENT OF SECTION 2 AND SECTION 5, ALTHOUG HE IS NOT A LAWYERi THAT THE DIFFICULTY IN ATTEMPTING To CONCLUDE I,JHAT IS AND WHAT I5 NOT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IS THAT ONE HAS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO AS GUIDANCE, BUT ONLY NEGATIVES=-THAT IS, THAT BOLDEN IS A NEGATIVE IN THAT THE CONGRESS REACTED SPECIFICALLY I.IHEN IT ADOPTED SECTION 2 TO THE BOLDEN CASE; THAT TF THE CONGRESS HAD WANTED TO ABOLISH ALL MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IT HAD MORE THAN AN AMPLE OPPORTUNITY IN SECTION 2 TO DO SO. BUT IT DID NOT DO SO. THE PLAINTIFFS IN THIS CASE IVOULD APPEAR TO BE USING AS THE STANDARD THE NUMBER OF BLACKS I./HO COULD BE ELECTED FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE FOUR CONTESTED COUNTIES. AND YET THAT IS ONLY CONSISTENT LEGALLY WITH THE POSITION THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WERE DISALLOWED BY THE. CONGRESS O* THAT THAT OUGHT TO BE THE STANDARD--THAT CONGRESS COULD NOT SAY THAT IN ORDER TO DETERMINE THE EXTENT TO },IHICH BLACK VOTERS ARE EXCLUDED OR WHICH THE PROCESS IS NOT EQUALLY OPEN TO THEM I NCLUDI NG RESULTS, THAT CONGRESS COULD HAVE SAI D, IIWELL, WHAT YOU DO IS TAKE A LOOK AT THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA AND DETERI,IINE HOW MANY SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS YOU CAN FORM. AND IF THERE ARENIT TFIAT MAI.IY BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED AT LARGE, THEN THERE MUST BE A VIoLATION OF SECTION 2.n BUT CONGRESS DIDNIT SAY THAT EITHER. SO THE F t O. lor ,las u R.hlfh. rbni C..ortM 2ttrr L4d'7 M96 1 2 3 I 5 6 7 8 I 10 1l t2 13 14 15 16 n 18 19 20 2l ,r, 23 24 26 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA PROBLEM THAT A WITNESS HAS IN TESTIFYING AS TO WHAT IN THE EXPERTIS OPII.IION CONSTITUTES SUESTANTIALLY SIGNIFI- CANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO BY WAY OF DEFINITION. YOU CAT{ ONLY COME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS BY VIEWING THOSE THINGS WHICH ARENIT UNDER THE CASE LAI^I AND THE STATUTE VIEVJED TO BE POLARIZED VOTING. NOI^I, WE APPRECIATE THE POSITION OF THE COUP.T. IT I./ASNIT THE INTENTION OF THE DEFENDANTS TO HAVE THIS WITNESS INVADE THE PROVINCE OF THE COURT. BUT VJHEN SOME- oNE ASKED HIM, "WELL, HOW DO yOU COME TO YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THE VOTING IS NOT RACIALLY POLARTZED,II IT IS SOME_ WHAT DIFFICULT TO DO SO WITHOUT SOME REFEP.ENCE TO THE CASE LAW AND TO SECTION 2. I WANT THE COURT TO KNOW THAT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE NATURE OF THE TESTIMONY AND THE PROOF. BUT I WILL GO ON. JUDGE PHILLIPS: . WE WILL ACCEPT THAT AS AN DR. HOFELLERI,S OPINIONoFFER OF PROOF 0N THE QUESTIoN OF AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIT.ED BEFORE THE COURT. VOTING BASED ON THE DATA BY I"1R. LEOI,IARD: A DR. HOFELLER, CAN YOU GIVE A D5FINITION OR EXPLANATION OF I,IHAT YOUR VIEW IS WITH RESPECT TO I/,HEN POLARIZATION OF VOTING BECOMES SIGNIFICANT TO THE POINT F P. O. Bor 2aldl IJ Rd.hNr r.odh C.re{o. 270rr 1408 ,\49 7 1 2 3a 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r 22 23 24 25 PREClSION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA WHERE IT IS THE FACTOR OR A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE DEFEAT OF A BLACK CANDIDATE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE HISTORY OF SECTION 2 AND THE CASE LAW? WOULD YOU TRY TO DO THAT, PLEASE? A I BELIEVE--AND AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES. I DON'T I^IANT TO OVERSTEP HERE . DR. GROFMAN BE L I EVES THAT THERE HAS BEEN A VIOLATION. HE BELIEVES THAT--AND HE CALLS THAT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC VOT I NG. I DONIT BELIEVE THERE IS STATISTICALLY SIGNI_ FICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC VOTING BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE OVERRIDING CAUSE OF THE CANDIDATES NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS I ALSO SEE FROM MY EXAMINATION OF THE DATA THAT THE BLACKS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN TERMS OF ELECTING BLACKS TO THE STATE LE""LATURE HAVE EN.JOYED A CONSIDERABLE GAIN AS A RESULT OF THE T982 ELECTION. THERE ARE MORE BLACKS BY A CONSIDERABLE DEGREE IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE. I RE.JECT THE HYPOTHESIS THAT SOMEHOW THIS ELECTION OF THESE BLACKS IS AN UNUSUAL EVENT, ONE WHICH HAS ANY DEGREE OF BEING NEGATED IN 1984. IF ONE LOOKS AGAIN AT THE SUCCESS OF BLACKS WHO HAVE STOOD FOR RE- ELECTION AS INCUMBENTS, ONE FINDS THAT BLACKS HAVE EN- LIOYED A HIGH DEGREE OF SUCCESS IN RE-ELECTION. AND a P. O. eor 2tla LJ irbrgh. Nodh c.roun. 2rctr L409 o M9B 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25o PREClSION REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THEREFORE, I REJECT AGAIN THAT THIS CANNOT OCCUR IN 1984. I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION DATA IN THE COUNTIES INVOLVED. I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION OF THE STATE. AND I FIND THAT BLACKS ARE MAKING SIGNIFICANT GAINS IN TERMS OF THEIR REGISTRATION IN RELATION TO THE WHITE REGISTRATIOI.'I; AND THAT THIS INDEED MAY BE THE CAUSE FOR THE BLACKS BEING MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 182 THAN IN I84. I BELIEVE THAT I,THEN I LOOK AT THE TOTALITY OF THE REDISTRICTING PLAN IN PLACE IN NORTH CAROLINA NOW THAT IT CAN BE SHOWN THAT BLACK SUCCESS HAS IN SOME CASES BEEN ENHANCED BY THE PRESENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS; AND THAT THIS ENHANCEMENT CAN BE SHOI{N EVEN TO HAVE AMOUNTED TO PROPORTIONALITY, EVEN THOUGH PROPORTIONALITY MAY NOT BE REQUiRED--I CANI:T REALLY SAY WHETHER IT IS; SO THAT IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE CONNTUTTOru OF BLACK REGISTRATION TO THE SUCCTSS OF BLACK CANDIDATES--THE FACT THAT THAT EXISTS--AND JHE PRESENCE OF ALL THE OTHER DATA DOES NOT LEAD ME--CANNOT LEAD ME--TO A CONCLUSION THAT THERE IS STATiSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIE VOTING IN TERMS OF DENYING BLACKS THEIR. RIGHTS. a Do You HAVE AN OPINION SPECIFICALLY, DR. HOFELLER, AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SUBSTANTIALLY: SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA AND IN THE COUNTIES IN QUESTION WAS THE DECISIVE FACTOR IN THE F P. O. lor 26las lJ R.btc,r t{od c.dlm 27al L4TA(M9 9 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t o., 23 24 26 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 976.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA DEFEAT OF THOSE BLACKS WHO DiD NOT GET ELECTED THAT YOU LOOKED AT--THE RACES YOU LOOKED AT? A IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION--WELL, YES. I HAVE AN OPINION. a WHAT rS rT? A MY OPINION IS THAT CERTAINLY IT COULD HAVE BEEN A FACTOR. BUT I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT IT IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTOR OR IT IS THE ONLY FACTOR AND THAT THAT FACTOR OPERATING IN A VACUUM WAS THE CAUSE OF THAT. THERE ARE TOO MANY OTHER FACTORS PLAYING UPON THOSE ELECTIONS THAT COULD BE THE CAUSE OF THOSE CANDI- DATES NOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL. A THERE WAS SOME TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN--WELL, EXCUSE ME. I THINK IN YOUR LAST ANSWER YOU SAID THAT BLACKS WERE MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 1982 THAN THEY WERE IN '84. I AM WONDERING WHETHER OR *O' YOU MISSPOKE WITH RESPECT TO THE YEARS INVOLVED? A MY APOLOGY--YES; THAT THEY WERE MORE SUCCESS- FUL IN I82 THAN THEY WERE IN T80 AND INDEED IN '78. A THERE WAS SOI4E TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN WITH RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY IN ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY AS AN ATTRIBUTE IN THE MAKEUP OF ELECTORAL DISTRICTS? A AS A STUDENT OF REAPPOINTMENT AND AS AN OBSERVER OF REAPPORTIONMENT, CONSISTENCY IS USUALLY A F 2, O. 8or 1,alag lJ R.htgh. ttonh C.,oiln. 2,-t 1-4LL M100 I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORT]NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PIIOENIX, ARIZONA VERY GOOD SUBSTITUTE FOR GERRYI.4ANDEIIING. IF YOU WAI.IT T HAVE CONSISTENCY IN ELECTION DISTRICTS, YOU GERRYMANDER THEI4. AND THEN YOU CAN ENSURE THAT YOU WILL GET A GUARANTEED RESULT. I THINK THAT IF YOU SUBDIVIDE ANY DI STRI CT YOU CAN FIND THAT THE DI STRI CT I^/I LL NOT BE HOMOGENEOUS, HOl^JEVER. a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO T,JHETHER OR NOT THE EFFECTS OF PAST DISCRI14INATION IN THIS STATE HAVE HINDERED OR ARE HINDERING THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO EFFECTIVELY AND EQUALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL PROCE SS ? MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO BOTH THAT BEING OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDS OF EXPERTISE AND ALSO IT HAS NO ADEQUATE FOUNDATION AS TO WHAT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE PAST DISCRIMINATION IN THIS STATE OR WHAT THE CURRENT BARRIERS ARE. HE HAS NOT BEEN I; THE COURTROOM THROUGH- OUT THE TRIAL. .JUDGE PHI LL I PS : . COUNSEL, IS THAT THAT OB.JECTION IS WELL TAKEN. BY MR. LEONARD: A DI D YOU PR,EPARE AN EXHI BIT AS STUDY THAT YOU DID ON VOTER REGISTRATION CAROL I NA? MY DISPOSITION A RESULT OF A IN NORTH I A I DiD. A I5 THAT A THREE-PAGE EXHIBIT MARKED DEFENDANTS F t. O. Eor ,rGs lJ irbagh, xodh C.rolo z7Gil 1,47 ok M101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l oa, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA EXHIBIT 62? (Orr,rNoRrurs EXHI BIT No . 62 wAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATTON. ) THE FIRST PAGE OF EXHIBIT 62. EXHIBIT IS THREE PAGES? A a A a AND WHAT A a A TION DATA OF ONE OF TR IAL--I BOARD. NO. THAT IS YES. AND THE IT IS. WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT EXHIBIT TO THE COURT YOU PURPORT TO SHOW BY IT? THE FIRST PAGE? THE WHOLE EXHIBIT? THE FIRST PAGE IS AN ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRA- FOR THE STATE AS A WHOLE WHICH I COMPILED OUT THE OTHER EXHIBITS WHICH WAS PRESENTED AT THIS BELIEVE BY SOMEONE FROM THE STATE ELECTION . AND ALL IT.REALLY SHOWS IS THE AMOUNT OF WHITES REGISTERED IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE OF THOSE YEARS AND THE NUMBER OF BLACKS REGISTEP.ED IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE OF THOSE YEARS AND THE RATIO OF WHITES TO BLACKS. THE EXHIBIT WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN DRAWING MY CONCLUSION, IN THAT I FIND IN IB2 A PARTICULARLY LARGE GAIN IN BLACK REGISTRATION VIS-A-VIS WHITE REGISTRATION: THE I-OWER THE RATIO CN THE R.IGHX, THE BETTER THE BLACKS ARE REG I STERED I N ACCORDANCE I..1I TH THE WH I TES . F P. O. Bor i'tlGll LJ i.blgh, Nornr Ctrolril 2rttt 1413 1M102 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 l1 L2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 l9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AND SO IT IS MY FEELING THAT THIS TREND WILL CONTINUE AND THAT THIS I^/ILL HAVE AN EFFECT UPON THE BLACK POTENTIAL TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ELECTIONS IN THE DISTRICTS THAT ARE BEING DISCUSSED. I WOULD ALSO, INCIDENTALLY, CONCLIJDE FROM THIS THAT BLACKS EITHER MAY BE HAVING LESS DIFFICULTY REGIS- TERING; OR THERE t"lIGHT BE SOME OTHER FACTOR AT LARGE Il.,t THE BODY POLITIC, SUCH AS THE CHANGE IN REGISTRATION PROCEDURES WHICH I HAVE HEARD ABOUT AND THE ENCOURAGEMENT OF OTHER POLITICAL GROUPS TO REGISTER BLACKS, WHICH IS BRINGING MORE AND MORE BLACKS INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THIS STATE. A AND YOU HAVE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE MECKLEN- BURG ELECTIONS. AND I TAKE IT THAT PAGE 2 IS SIMPLY AN ANALYSI S 'T[]AT AIDED YOU IN YOUR TESTIMONY? A THAT IS CORRECT. AND TELL THE COURT WHAT PAGE 3 OR WHAT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF PAGE ' OF T-HAT EXHIBIT IS. A PAGE ] LOOKS AT FOUR INDIVIDUAL COUNTIES AND ONE THREE-COUNTY AREA AND TAKES TURNOUT STATISTICS OFF THE GROFMAN EXHIBITS FOR THOSE GENERAL AND PRIMARY ELEC- TIONS IN THE YEARS INDICATED. AND IT TAKES REGISTRATION DATA OFF OF THE STATE ELECTION BOARDIS EXHIBIT FOR THE CLOSIl.IG GENERAL ELECTION REGISTRATION. THIS DOCUMENT AGAIN WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN F P. O. Eor 2Ar0! lJ Rthaen, No.th CtroatB Ar0tt 14L1 KM1O3 a I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 2g 24 o< PREClSION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA LEAD I NG TO MY CONCLUSIONS, AS I STATED. AND THAT HELPFULNESS COMES FROI4 THE COLUMN TO RIGHT, WHICH SHOU/S THAT THE RATIO OF l,/HITES TO I S DROPPI NG? THAT IS CORRECT. a THE FAR B LAC KS A AND THE LOWER RATIO GOES, WHAT DCES THAT MEAN? A WELL, WHEN THE NUMBER IS LOWER, THE PROPOR,TION OF T.JHITES TO BLACKS DROPS, WHICH MEANS THAT THE BLACKS HAVE A STRONGER REPRESENTATION IN THE POTENTIAL ELECTORA IN TERMS OF REGISTRATION. MR. LEONARD: WOULD THE COURT GRANT ME JUST A FEW MINUTES FOR A CAUCUS WITH COUNSEL HERE? (PAUSE. ) BY MR. LEONARD: a DR. HOFELLER, DID YOU LoOK AT IN YOUR EXAMINA- TION THE NASH-EDGECOMBE-WILSON AREA OF THE STATE WITH RESPECT TO A SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICT? A I DID. DURING THE COURSE OF THAT INVESTIGATION, DID YOU INVESTIGATE VARIOUS PROPOSALS WITH RESPECT TO CREAT- ING A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA? VJHAT I DID ESSENTIALLY WAS IN MY VERY FIRST WORK FOR THE LEGISLATURE BACK IN 1981, I DETERI'4INED IN MY JUDGI{ENT THAT THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY OF FORMING A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. BEFORE I'4Y INFORMAL DEPOSITION F P. O. Bor l'tlfi! lJ Brrdch, Nonn C.rclrm 27611 14 L5 ,110t+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN APRIL AND BECAUSE I NOW HAVE MAPS TO GO ALONG WITH THE DATA, I ATTEMPTED TO DRAW SUCH A DISTRICT AI..ID INDTED FOUND THAT A DISTP.ICT COULD BE DRAWN I]'.I THAT COUNTY THAT WOULD HAVE MA\.,OR I TY BLACK POPULAT I ON. a WHAT IS yoUR OPINION h'rTH P.ESPECT TO SUCH A__ EXCUSE ME. LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE. DID YOU PUT TIIAT PROPOSED DISTRICT ON A MAP OF SOME KIND? YHS. I PUT IT ON A MAP. BUT YOU DONIT HAVE THAT AVAILABLE NOI^,? I AM SORRY. I DONIT. a WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID yOU--WHAT pERCENTAGE BLACK WAS THE DISTRICT THAT YOU DREW? 59. A WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU I,IAKE WITH RESPECT TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF SUCH A DISTRICT IN ORDER TO GET.AT THAT HIGH A PERCENTAGE SI.ACTZ WELL, THAT DISTRICT--I MIGHT REITERATE THAT THERE MAY BE OTHER COMB I NAT I ONS . BUT T!.!,\T D I STR I CT WAS BASED UPON USING TOWNSHIPS AND NOT BREAKING TOWNSHIPS. AND IT WAS ALSO A TVJO-COUNTY DISTRICT. AND IN ORDER TO CRT:ATE A TWO-COUNTY DI STRI CT, I HAD TO MAKE A DI STRI CT WHICH },/OULD BE I"IOSTLY RURAL AREAS AND THAT WOULD IN EF_ FECT GO AROUND THE PERIPHERY OF NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTIES FROM THE FAR SOUTH CORNER OF EDGECOMBE ALMOST ALL THE l^rAY AROUND TO THE FAR SIDE OF NASIJ COUNTY. F P, O. Eor 2tlct lJ R.blgh. Nonh C.roilil 270il SO I T WOLILD BE A D I STRI CT WHI CH WOULD--WHOSE COMMUNITY OF INTEREST WOULD ONLY BE THAT IT I^,AS BL,\CK. THERE I{OULD BE NO OTHER BAS I S FOR COI4MUN I TY OF I NTEREST. A WOULD THE CREATION OF SUCH A DISTRICT SUBJECT YOU TO A VIOLATION OF ANY OF THE PRINCIPLES OF REDIS- TRICTING? A I THINK THAT THAT DISTRICT, AS "./ELL AS DISTRICT THAT I SEE BEFORE ME, WOULD BE CONSIDERED ANY REDISTRICTING STUDENT TO BE--- MS. WINNER: (INTERPoSING) I oBJECT TO WHAT SOME OTHER REDISTRICTING STUDENT IS GOII..IG TO CONSIDER IT. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HE CONSIDERS IT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU ARE QUALIFIED, DOCTOB TO GIVE YOUR OWN OPINION AS TO THAT MATTER. AND YOU MAY GIVE YOUR OPINION AS TO THE CHARACTERISTICS. THE BY , THE V'TI TNESS : ,ar, YouR HoNoR. IN MY oPINIOI9 THAT WOULD BE A GERRYMAT.,|DER. BY MR. LEONARD:. a Do You FrND suppoRT FoR YouR opINIoN WITH RESPECT TO THAT IN THE LITERATURE AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE AS RED I STR I CTER ? a SHERI FF OF I DO. NOl,/, DID YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR THE WAKE COUNTY--THE ELECTIOI.IS THERE? I DID.A Lratr 6 (M105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l .rq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAr P. O. lor 2tlas LJ R.5eh. l.onh crroilm 270r L4L7 M106 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 r9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM THOSE ELECTIONS? A I CONCLUDED ESSENTIALLY THAT A BLACK SHERIFF RUNNING IN 182 AS AN INCUMBENT WAS ABLE TO GAIN NOMII'IA- TION AND RE-ELECTION IN A COUNTY THAT WAS PREDOMINANTLY WHTTE. A DID THAT AID YOU IN ANY WAY IN YOUR CONCLUSION WITH RESPECT TO RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING? IT DID. a WHAT IS YOUR OPINTON Wllb:N YOU LOOKED AT THE RESULTS OF THAT ELECT I ON IdI TH RESPECT TO YOUR CONCLUS I ON? A I THI NK THAT THAT ELECT I ON }^/AS PERHAPS MORE HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE COUNTY INVOLVED THAN IT WAS ANYWHERE ELSE. BUT IT DID SHOW THAT THERE WERE SITUATI IN WHICH LARGE NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS--INDEED, SUBSTAN_ TIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS_-WOULD CROSS OVER AND VOTE FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE. A I WOULD ASK YOU TO REFER TO WHAT HAS BEEN DES I GNATED AS DE FENDANTS t EXH I B I TS 63 AND 6I+ AND ASK YOU TO IDENTIFY THOSE, PLEASE? (orrrNoRNrs EXHIBIT NOS. 63 AND 6+ WERE MARKED FOR IDENIIFICT.TI DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT 63 SHOWS A GRAPH OR SCATTER GRAM, AS YOU MIGHT CLASSIFY IT, OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE PERCENT RECEIVED BY THE CANDIDATE FOR SHERIFF IN I'I,\KE COUNTY IN RELATION TO THE BLACK REGISTRATION FOR BOTH THE F P. O. eor 2tl(l LJ RJdsh. Nonh C.'orh 2f.3il _1418 M107 I a, 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 o t PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGI.I, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION. a I^/HAT DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT EXHI BIT? A THE SAME CONCLUSTON THAT I DID BEFORE. AND THAT IS THAT SUBSTANTIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS CROSSED OVER AND VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE, ALLOWING HII'1 TO I,IIN TIII] ELECTION. A CAN YOU TELL FROM THAT EXHIBIT WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITES VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE? A NO. a Do You KNov,, WHAT THAT PERCENTAGE WAS? A I CAN'T GIVE IT TO YOU RIGHT NOW. a AND EXHTBIT 64? A EXHIBIT 64 IS AN INSTANCE IN WINSTON-SALEM IN THE FIFTH WARD, I BELIEVE, II.,I WHICH A BLACK CANDIDATE WAS ELECTED IN A WHITE CITY COUNCIL DISTRICT. AND THOSE ARE GRAPHS wH ICH SHoW, AGAI I!, THE *.iO,IONSHI P BETWEEN THE WHITE AND BLACK VOTE.-I AM SORRY--BETWEEN THE PERCENT RECEIVED BY THE BLACK AND THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK REGISTRATION. A AND THOSE WERE PREPARED BY YOU IN ORDER TO SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSIONS? A THEY VJERE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION_-YES--THAT I DID IN LOOKING INTO VOTING BEHAVIOR. A DR. HOFELLER, ONE FINAL QUESTION: DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO VJHETHER OR NOT CHAPTER 1 OF THE 1982 A P. O. Box ,taB u R.btgh. Nodh C.rctin. 276I x/. JL 1f lt l.3.11 0 B 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t .ro 23 24 25 ,o PRECTSION REPORT!NG AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA SECOND EXTRA SESSIOII OF THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL ASSEMBLY RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICTING OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND CHAPTER 2 RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICT- ING OF THE SENATE OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA DENY THE BLACK PEOPLE OF THIS STATE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE? MS. WINNER: JUDGE PH I LL I PS : THE WITNESS: BY MR. LEONARD: I OBJECT. OVERRULED. I DO. WHAT IS THAT OPINION? MY OPINION IS THAT IT DOES NOT. MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL. C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N L2..05 P.M. BY MS. I{INNER: DR. HOFELLER, DRA\^JING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE EXHIBITS TO WHICH YOU.JUST.TESTIFI-D--THAT IS, EXHIBITS AND 63 AND 64--THOSE ARE THE ONLY ELECTIONS WHICH YOU HA TESTIFIED ABOUT WHICH WERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS; IS THAT CORRECT? A I LOOKED AT ELECTIONS IN TWO OTHER PLACES BESIDES THOSE. BUT I HAVEN'T PRESENTED ANY EXHIBITS. THEY WOULD BE PART OF MY CONCLUSIONS. I AM NOT SURE I--- a (rrurrRposrNG) you DrDN'T TESTIFY--AS FAR AS a A E P. O. &r ,alct lJ tt btoh. Nonh Csoiln. 2IOtl tt*2A M10g I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA YOUR TESTIMONY GOES TODAY, THE ONLY ELECT]ONS THAT YOU MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY I{HICH I^/ERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROF- MANI S ANALYSIS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE SHOWN IN EXHIBI'TS 63 AND 64; rs rHAT CoRRECT? A YES. a AIJD tlrlW DID YOU HAppEN TO PICK THE WAKE COUNTY SHERIFFIS RACE AND THE WINSTON_SALEM CITY COUNCIL RACE TO ANALYZE OUT OF ALL OF THE MANY ELECTIONS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN NORTH CAROLINA IN THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE YEAR A THESE ELECTIOI.IS WERE GIVEN TO ME BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AS INSTANCES IN WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES T',ERE ELECTED IN WHITE MAJORITY DISTRICTS. A WAS THAT BASED ON A REQUEST BY YOU FOR EXAMPL OF ELECTIONS IN WHiCH BLACK CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN ELECTED IN MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS? . A I DONTT RECALL WHETHER IT WAS A DIRECT RE1UEST OR 1'.IOT. THERE WAS A DI SCUSS I ON I N WH I CH ELECT I ONS TO BE LOOKED AT WERE DISCUSSED. AND THAT CAME OUT OF THAT DISCUSSIOI.J. a AND THOSE 1^/ERE THE ELECTIONS WHICH YOU PER- CEIVED WOULD BE LIKELY TO SHOW THE LEAST POLARIZED VOTING--THAT IS, ELECTIONS IN WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES WON IN A MAJORITY WHITE ELECTION; IS THAT CORRECT? A I AM NOT SURE THAT I WOULD .JUDGE THE CITY COUNCIL ELECTIOI..I II'J VJINSTON-SALEM AS NOT HAVING F P. O. Bor 2alB |. Rrbtoh, Nodh C.rorm 276tt L42L 4110 1 , 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 23 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA POLARIZATION. AGAIN, I THINK IF YOU CALCULATED THE CORRELATION ON THAT, YOU WOULD FIND YOU WOULD HAVE A HIGH DEGREE OF CORRELATION. SO AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF THE TERMS. A CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT 64, WHICH IS THE WINSTON-SALE}4 CITy COUNCIL SCATTERGRAM, DOES THAT SCATTERGRAM--IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THAT SCATTERGRAM SHOW RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING? A AS I WOULD DEFiNE RACIALLY POLARIZED VO ING, AS I PREVIOUSLY DID--YES; IT DOES. A AND IT DOES IN BOTH THE PRII'IARY AND THE GENERAL ? A YES. a ntoi^t, trF I UNDERSTAND THIS GRAPH--AND I MAy WELL NOT--THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT ON THE HORIZON- TAL AXiS YOU HAVE USED. AS THE BASIS OF BLACK REGISTRATI IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT.. A THAT IS THE PERCENT OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS IN EACH PRECINCT THAT IS BLACK; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT IS CORRECT. q AND SO THAT GRAPH DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE POSSIBILITY OF SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT VOTER TURNOUT BETWEEN WHITES AND BLACKS IN THAT ELECTION; DOES IT? A NO. IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO F P. O.8ox 2tla LJ R.bteh. iodh c.roth. 2rofi n L,;c.r\ r tir ad r.1111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA TO THE RECORDS OF THE LOCAL ELECTION BOARD AT.ID FIND OUT WHO THE VOTERS WERE THAT ACTUALLY VOTED--IF, INDEED, THEY I4IERE KEPT IN THAT. a AND YOU DIDN' T DO THAT? A -I DID NOT DO THAT. a AND SO IN THAT PARTiCULAR ELECTION__DO yOU KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS IS IN THAT PRECINCT_-IN THAT WARD? A NO; I DON! T. a you JUST KNOW THAT IT IS SO|4ETHTNG ABOVE 50 PERCENT WHITE? A THE PERCENTAGE OF WHAT? A THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTSRS IS ABOVE 5O PERCENT WHITE? A YES. a BUT YOU DON,T KNOW HOW MUCH ABOVE? A YES. NO; I DON|T KNOW WHAT--YES. I DON'T KNOW WHAT PERCENT. A SO IF IT WERE CLOSE TO 50 PERCENT AND THERE WAS, IN FACT, A HIGHER VOTER TURNOUT AMOI..IG BLACK VOTERS THAN WHITE VOTERS, IT COULD MEAN THAT FEW, IF ANY, WHITE VOTERS VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE; IS THAT CORRECT? A CERTAINLY. a AND IN FACT, tf' yOU LOOK AT YOUR GRAPH FOR THE PRIMARY AND IF I UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ IT, AT THE - P. O. 8ox zia lJ i.bleh. Nonh C.rorin. 27OI 1,423 M112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I 9 10 l1 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 n 2t o.t 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX ARIZONA VERY BOTTOM LITTLE CORNER ON THE LEFT BOTTOM THERE IS AN rrArr 2 THAT IS CORRECT. AND DOES THAT MEAN THAT IN A PRECINCT THAT WAS ABOUT 1 PERCENT BLACK IN REGISTRATION, THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT ABOUT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE? ABOUT ONE FOR TWO; YES. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 2 OF THAT EXHIBIT IN THE LAST TWO COLU|4NS--COLUMN g AND g, THE VERY TOp ROW FIRST OBSERVATION--DOES THAT NOT INDICATE THAT IN A PRECINCT THAT HAD 1 PERCENT OF ITS REGISTERED VOTERS BLACK THAT THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE? A IT DOES. a oKAy. MovING ALONG TO EXHIBIT 63, yOU DID NOT ANALYZE THE 1978 SHERIFFT S RACE IN WAKE COUI'ITY; DID YOU? A NO. A AND THAT }IAS AN ELECTION VIFERE THE SAME BLACK CANDIDATE WAS A CANDIDATE? DO YOU KNOW THAT? A I DONIT KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH OF HIS TERM IS. SO HE HAD TO HAVE RUN IN THE PRECEDING ELECTION OR HE WOULDNIT HAVE BEEN AN INCUMBENT. BUT I DONIT KNOVJ. DO YOU TH I NK THAT SHER I FF RAKER I S I NCUI,IBENCY TO DO WITH THE NUMBER OF V/HITE VOTES THATHAD ANYTHI NG HE GOT? - P. O. Eor 2at0s u Rdrolr. }{om C.roahr 270il !424 M113 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 t4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A I WOULD SAY YES. IT PROBABLY DID. A YOU DID NOT ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF BLACK AND I^IHITE VOTERS IVHO VOTED FOR SHERIFF BAKER IN THAT ELECTI DID YOU? A .NO; I DID NOT. q AND THIS GRAPH AS WELL AS THE \,IINSTON_SALE}4 GRAPH IGNORES DIFFERENTIAL TURNOUT? A YES. A AND IF BLACK TURNOUT WAS HIGHER THAN WHITE TURNOUT, THEN THE AMOUNT OF OR THE NUMBER OF WHITE VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE WOULD BE EXAGGERATED; IS THAT CORRECT? (NO RESPONSE. ) a DO YOU WAl.lT ME TO R.EP[:AT T}IAT? A NO. I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUEST I ON. BUT IT I{OULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU TAL.K ABOUT AErr.fe EXAGGERATED. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT IT WAS SIGNIFICANT TO THE ELECTION. THERE IS ALSO THE CONVERSE OF THAT--THA THE TURNOUTS COULD HAVE BEEN THE OPPOSITE WAY FROM WHICH YOU STATED THEM. A THAT IS RIGHT. AND IN THAT CASE, THE AMOUNT POLARIZATION OF VOTING WOULD BE UNDERESTIMATED? A THAT IS RIGHT. THAT POINTS TO THE PROBLEM OF USING THAT SORT OF DATA AS A }4AJOR TOOL--AS THE I4A.JOR TOOL, PERHAPS--IN DETERI'lINING SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZE - P. O. Bor i'.!6ll lJ Rrbrsh. Nonh C.rolo zralr 1425 a 114 I 2 3 1 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2t q, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BLOC VOTING. A AND YOU CANIT TELL FROM THIS GRAPH WHETHER YOU HAVE UNDERESTIMATED OR OVERESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF POLARIZATION BECAUSE OF THE TURNOUT? A .NO. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THESE ELECTIONS IS INDEED MORE IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT THERE WAS STATISTI- CAL POLARTZATION AND THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE I^,ON IN A WHI DISTRICT. a so WHAT you coNcLUDED IS ALTHOUGH THERE WAS STATISTICAL POLARIZATION, NONETHELESS THE BLACK CANDIDATE WON; IS THAT RIGHT? A STATISTICAL POLARIZATION; YES. A NOW, I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE HIRED BY THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA INITIALLY IN NOVEMBER--EXCUSE ME_-IN NOVEMBER OF 1981 OR THEREABOUTS? A YES. A AND AT THAT TIME YOU MADE A REPORT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ABOUT WHERE THERE WERE SUFFICIENT CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTERS TO CREATE MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICTS; IS THAT CORRECT? A MA.JORITY SINGLE-MEMBER BLACK DISTRICTS; YE5. A MA.JORITY BLACK SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS? A YES. A AND ONE OF THOSE PLACES THAT YOU REPORTED THAT THAT WAS POSSIBLE WAS IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE STATE F P, O.5or 2tla3 u B.breh. No^n C.roilm 2ratr 1 4?c,Y115 1 2 3 1 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA FOR THE SENATE; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THE PERCENTAGE OF THE DISTRICT WHICH YOU REPORTED COULD BE CREATED WAS 59.4 PERCENT; IS THAT RIGH A .TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION; YES. A AND THAT WAS IN THE REPORT? A I BELIEVE IT WAS. I THINK YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE REPORT. AND I DONI T. a YES. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT? (oocUMENT HANDED UP To wITNESS.) IS THAT A COPY OF YOUR REPORT TO THE GENERAL AS SEMB LY ? A YES. A LOOKING AT PAGE 6, COULD YOU JUST READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH? A 't...159.4 PERCENT SENATE SEAT IS ALSO POSSIBLE WITH TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS.II A AND DOES THAT IMPLY THAT OTHERWISE IT CONSISTS OF WHOLE COUNTIES? A YES. a AND THOSE TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN TOWNSHIPS? YOU DIDNIT WORK WITH ANYTH]NG OTHER THAN TOWNSHIPS; DID YOU? A THAT IS CORRECT. A DID YOU ACTUALLY DRAW THAT DISTRICT OUT ON Ao - P. O. Eor 2tldl u n.hlgh, Nodh C.roltn. z7Ott 'fi I c-t rtL*1,t ^1116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 l3 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA MAP ? A WELL, I HAD TO HAVE DRAWN IT OUT ON A MAP OR I COULDNIT HAVE ASCERTAINED WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS CON- TIGUOUS. AGAIN, I DONTT KNOW WHERE THE MAP IS. BUT I AM SURE THAT I DREW IT ON A MAP. AND IT WAS CONTIGUOUS. A DID ANYONE EVER ASK YOU TO SEE THAT MAP? A NO. A OTHER THAN ME? A THAT IS CORRECT. A NOW, YOU HAVE TESTIFIED PREVIOUSLY IN THE CASE r OF KETCHAM V. BURNS IN CHICAGO? A YES-_IF THAT IS THE CITY COUNCIL. a YES? A YES. a AND THAT WAS IN OCTOBER OF 1982 ROUGHLY? . A YES. A YOU WERE AN EXPERT IN THAT CASE? A YE S; I h,AS A WAS THE ISSUE IN THAT CASE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS DILUTION OF MINORITY VOTING STRENGTH BECAUSE OF FRACTURING AND PACKING? A YOU COULD STYLE IT THAT WAY. YES. THE ISSUE wAS--- a (trureRPosING) rHar trJAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE I SSUES ? - P. O. Bor utd u Rrldoh. )aonh Crrofl[ 27atl i,429 4t 17 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l oo OQ 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A THAT I,/AS ONE OF THE I SSUES. YES. A DID YOU TESTIFY IN THAT CASE THAT THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA FOR REAPPORTIONMENT WERE EQUALITY OF POPULATION AND AVOIDANCE OF RACIAL DILUTION? A .I DID. A AND DID YOU TESTIFY THAT A RULE OF THUMB FOR A MINORI'f Y SI-:AT I S GENERALLY STATED AS 6 5 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL POPULATION? A YES--WITH THE CAVEAT THAT IT COULD VARY CON- S IDERABLY IN INDIVIDUAL CASES AI.ID THAT YOU HAD TO LOOK AT THEM. A BUT YOU STARTED WITH 65 PERCENT? AND THEN YOU TOOK INDIVIDUAL CIRCUMSTANCES INTO ACCOUNT TO RAISE OR LOWER THAT AMOUNT? A THAT IS RIGHT. DID YOU SAY 65 PERCENT OF TOTAL POPULATION? a YES? A YES. THAT IS CORRECT. A AND THE REASON THAT THAT IS GREATER THAN 50 PERCENT OR SOME OF THE REASONS THAT IT IS GREATER THAN 50 PERCENT IS BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE LOWER VOTING AGE POPULA- TION OR POSSIBLE LOWER REGISTRATION OR POSSIBLE LOWER TURNOUT; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. a AND IN THAT CASE--II.I LIGHT OF TH,qT, YOU P. O. eor 2alB Ll R.5qh, xodh crrdril 276fi n42S M118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA TESTIFIED THAT A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WAS NOT A VIABLE BLACK WARD? I AI4 NOT SURE THAT I TESTIFiED TO THAT. MY OPINION WOULD BE PROBABLY THAT I WOULD HAVE SAID THAT IF ASKED THAT. QUESTION_-YES--PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF CH I CAGO. A AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WOULD NOT BE A VIABLE BLACK WARD? A YES-_ALTHOUGH I MIGHT ADD THERE ARE ALSO SITUATIONS IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO WHERE BLACKS HAVE WON IN WARDS CONSIDERABLY LESS. IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH MACHINE POLITICS IN THAT CITY. A AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER IF HISPANIC WARDS WERE OVER 60 PERCENT HISPANIC; IS THAT RIGHT? A AT LEAST. q Do You KNOW WHAT THE VOTER REGISTRATION IS FOR THE CURRENT SENATE DISTRICI NUMBER 2 IN NORTH CAROLINA? A NO. I AM SORRY. I DONIT. A b,OULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO CONSIDER IN DETERI'III'IING WHETHER OR NOT SENATE DISTRICT NUMBER 2 AS CURRENTLY DRAWN IS A VIABLE BLACK DISTRICT? A a A CERTAI NLY. CAN YOU GIVE A DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE? WITH RELATION TO--- F P. O. Eor 2ll.(l lJ B.brch. }lorri C.Drh. 276il 1,4'3 C M11g 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L q, 23 24 25I PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O. gor 2116 L, R.t.toh. Nodh cr.oln. 27olI a (trurenposING) l,rINoRITy vorING STRENGTH? A WITH RELATION TO MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS? a YES? A SUBMERGENCE WITH RELATION TO MULTI-MEMBER DISTFIICTS.TAKES PLACE WHEN THERE IS A MINORITY POPULATION WHICH IS SUFFICIENTLY CONCENTRATED SUCH THAT A DISTRICT CAN BE DRAWN TO INCLUDE THAT POPULATION_-A REASONABLE DISTRICT--IN WHICH THAT MINORITY WOULD CONSTITUTE A MAJOR I TY. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE TOTAL OF ALL THE I'lINORITY INHABITANTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT DO NOT CONSTITUTE A MA.JORITY OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTIS POPULAT I ON. A AND WHEN YOU SAY A REASONABLE DISTRICT COULD BE DRAUIN, DO YOU MEAN ONE THAT IS INTACT AND CONTIGUOUS? A REASONABLY.:O. REASONABLY SO. A USING THAT DEFINITION--I THINK THAT YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVE EXAMII.,IED THE CONCENTRATION OF MINORITY VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT? A ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHER COUNTIES IN THE STAT ALSO. A BUT YOU HAVE EXAI.4I NED I T I N BOTH COUNT I ES ? A YES. A USING THAT CRITERION, DO YOU CONSIDER THERE T 14 31 14120 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 2g 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BE SUBM=RGENCE I N THE MECKLENBURG COUI{TY HOIJSE DI STR I CT) A THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT? A YES--IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO PUT THE MAP UP? A I WAS .JUST GOING TO GET THE DI STRICT NUMBERS_- DI STRI CT 36? a YES? A YE S . THE ANSWER I S YES-- I N ACCORDANCE I,,I TH THAT DEFINITION; YES. A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE MECKLENBURG-CABARRUS SENATE DISTRICT, WHICH IS SENATE DISTRICT NUMBER 22? A YES. A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE DURHAM COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT--I CANIT RECALL THE NUMBEP.? A 23; YES. A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I THE WAKE COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 2I? A YES. A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I THE FORSYTH COUNTY HOUSE DiSTRICT NUMBER 39? A YES. A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE I,II LSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH HOUSE DI STRICT NUMBER 8? A YES. A P, O. 8or 2tl(l lJ F.hretr. Nonh crdh. 2rGrr 14'32 iql21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11. t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THERE WERE SOME EXAMPLES IN TI.IIS APPORTIONMENT PLAT! IN WHICH I.lULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS HAVE ENHANCED THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO GET ELECTED? IS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED--THAT THE CREA- TION OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS HAD ENHANCED? A YES. A WAS ONE OF YOUR EXAMPLES OF THAT IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY ? A FAYETTEVILLE? a YES? A YES. a Do you KNow How CUMBERLAND COUNTY WAS AppOR- TIONED IN 1970? A NO. A SO WHEN YOU SAID THAT THE ABILITY WAS ENHANCE IT WAS NOT AS COI4PARED TO HOW IT USED TO BE? A WHAT I MEANT BY THAT WAS THAT THE CREATION OF THE MULTI-MEMBER SEATS--MORE STRONGLY PERHAPS IN ROBESON COUNTY THAN IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY--AIDS THE BLACKS IN TERMS OF GETTING THEIR CANDIDATE ELECTED. A IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, I BELIEVE, HAS TWO MEMBERS; I S THAT CORP.ECT ? A THAT IS CORRECT. A AND IT IS.JUST A PORTION OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY: A P. O. 601 2ErGt lJ F.brsh, r6il C.,oflil 27aI 7 I '' t _!_ 1[ "i i Mt22 o I .) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t .ro 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A THAT IS RIGHT. I BELIEVE IT CONTAINS UNDER 5O PERCENT BLACK POPULATION. A DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS IN THAT DISTRICT IS THAT ARE BLACK? A . I THINK IT MIGHT INDEED BE OVER 50 PERCENT. THERE IS A GREAT AMOUNT OF MILITARY POPULATION IN THAT DISTRICT. a AND ISN| T IT, IN FACT, OVER g0 PERCENT OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS THAT ARE BLACK IN THAT DISTRICT? A I CANIT SPEAK FOR THAT, BECAUSE I SAID I DI DN I T KNOI/, EXACTLY WHAT THE REGI STRAT ION WAS. A IF THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTERS IN THAT DISTRICT WERE OVER 8O PERCENT BLACK, WOULD YOU THINK IT WAS A GOOD GENERALIZATION FROM THE RESULTS iN THAT DISTRICT TO A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN WHICH THE REGIS- TERED VOTERS WERE UNDER 5O PENCTT.TT OF THE POPULATION--OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS? A NO; CERTAINLY NOJ. a Now, TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO ROBESON, SCOT- LAND AND HOKE COUNTY--- JUDGE PHILLIPS: ROBESON. MS. WINNER: i AM SORRY--ROBESON, SCOTLAND AND HOKE. I, CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND .JUDGE BRITT OP. JUDGE MCMILLAN. .JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I AM FROM SCOTLAND. F P. O. Bor 2tld LJ R.bleh, t{o(n C.roln. 276rt 1r*iJ 4 iM l2l 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA M5. WINNER: I I^/I LL BE ESPECIALLY CAREFUL ABOUT MY PRONUNCIATION. BY MS. WINNER: a TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ROBESON, SCOT_ LAND AND HOKE DISTRICT, YOU SAID THAT THE CREATION OF A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA ENHANCED THE ABILITIES OF BLACK PEOPLE TO GET ELECTED, IS THAT RIGHT? A I AI,1 NOT SURE THAT I SAi D THE CREATI ON-_CER_ TAINLY THE EXISTENCE OF. A SO YOU WERE NOT COMPARING IT TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT DISTRICT IN THE SEVENTIES? I AM NOT ENTIRELY CERTAIN THAT THE DISTRICT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE SEVENTIES AS IT WAS IN THE EIGHTIES. THE POINT I WOULD MAKE HERE IS THAT IF THAT DISTRICT WERE TO BE SUBDIVIDED INTO THREE Il'IDIVIDUAL DISTRICTST. I AM NOT 9URE IT COULD BE ASCER- TAINED THAT THE BLACKS WOULD HAVE A MA,JORITY DISTRICT THERE. AND THEY MIGHT INDEED BE ABLE TO BE USING THEIR VOTE TO GREATER ADVANTAGE IN THIS SITUATION IN THAT MULTI -MEMBER DI STRiCT. A BUT UNDER YOUR DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE, YOU ARE NOT SURE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SUBMERGENCE IN THAT DISTRICT; IS THAT CORRECT? A THERE I S. I AM NOT SURE. I I^/OULD RATHER DOUBT THAT F P. O.8ox 2al6 lJ nlbtgh, Nodh crrcflo. 276fi 1435 11124 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 r8 19 20 2l o.l 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A ARE YOU AWARE OF WIIAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION OF THAT DISTRICT IS THAT IS INDIAN? A I BELIEVE IT IS SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD oF--LET'S SEE--J0, l0-40. SO THERE IS A LARGE INDIAN AND BLACK POPU.LATION AND THEN THE BLACK POPULATION, WHICH IS LARGER. BUT NEITHER ONE OF THE POPULATIONS IS A I'{AJORITY IN THAT DISTRICT. a Do you KNow oF ANy oTHER MULTI-MEI4BER DISTRI IN NORTH CAROLINA IN I^,HICH THERE IS NO ETHNIC GROUP THAT HAS A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION? NO. A DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN GENERALIZE FROM THE EFFECTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT ON BLACK ELECTION TO THE EFFECT OF MULTI-MEMBER DI STRICTS IN WI-{ICH THERE IS SUBMERGENCE AND IN WHICH THERE IS A CLEAR WHITE MAJORITY POPULATION? A I AM SORRY. SAY THAT AGAIN, WOULD YOU? A DOES THE EXISTENCE OF A SUBSTANTIAL INDIAN POPULATION IN THAT DISTRICT MAKE THAT DISTRICT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN NORTH CAROLINA? A YES. A WOULD THAT DI FFERENCE BE ONE THAT YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER IN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS FROM THAT DISTRICT? I THINK THAT THE ONLY GENERALIZATION THAT YOU F P. O. Bor 2ltB LJ R.hlch, Nodn c.@10 27rrr J.,{ ti 6.M125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORT]NG ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA COULD MAKE FROM THAT DISTRICT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE REDISTRICTING PLAN AS A WtlOLE AND YOU LOOK AT THE EXISTENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THAT REDISTRICTING PLAN THAT THAT IS A CASE IN WHICH THE BLACK VOTERS MAY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE; AND THAT IF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS ARE EVIL PER SE, THAT PERHAPS THOSE COUNTIES ALSO OUGHT TO BE OR PARTICULARLY THAT GROUP OF COUNTIES OUGHT TO BE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTED ALONG WITH THE OTHERS. JUDGE PHI LL I PS : LET ' S TAKE A ONE-HOUR RECESS FOR LUNCH. (rur pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT t2:30 p.M., To RECONVENE AT 1:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.) F P. O. lor 2trc3 LJ R.breh. Nonh C.rolnt ?70tt 'J JL L2a41-J I !112 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l ,, 23 24 25 F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 1:]O P. (wnrneuPoN, THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:) CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MS. WINNER: A DR. HOFELLER, HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE ELECTIONS IN MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES TO DETERMINE }.'HETHER BLACK VOTERS S INGLE_SHOT VOTE MORE THAN tlH I TE VOTER S DO ? A YES. a IN YOUR OPINION, DO BLACK VOTERS HAVE TO SINGLE-SHOT VOTE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO ELECT BLACK CANDIDATES IN THOSE COUNTiES? A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN SAY CONCLUSIVELY IN EVERY INSTANCE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SINGLE SHOT. BUT I THINK AS A GENERAL RULE THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. a Now, DRAI^/ING YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTS T EXHIBIT NUMBER 62, THE RATIO THAT YOU GIVE THERE IS SIMPLY A RATIO OF THE WHITE REGISTRATION DiVIDED BY THE BLACK REGISTRATION; IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P. O. Box zEtdl lJ R.hloh, xodh c!'oln. 276t1 'L t*:18 i|27 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a rT DoES NOT COMPARE-*YOU DrD NOT COMPARE THE NUI.IBER OF REG I STERED VOTERS TO THE VOT I NG AGE POPULAT I ON; DID YOU? A NOT IN THIS EXHIBIT. a .TH rs EXH IBrT DOES NOT SHOW THAT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A SO THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF RATIO DEPENDS AS MUCH ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATION IS BLACK A5 IT DOES ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE POPULATION IS REGISTERED; DOESNIT IT? A THE RATIO--THE RESULTANT RATIO OF WHITE TO BLACK REGISTRATION WOULD DEPEND UPON THE PERCENTAGE OF ADULT AGE POPULATION AVAILABLE AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE BLACKS AND THE WHITES REGISTER TO VOTE. A BUT THIS DOESNIT SHOW THE COMPARISON OF THE PROPORTION OF THE BLAC]< VOTING AGE POPULATION WHICH IS REGISTERED TO VOTE TO THE PROPORTION OF THE WHITE VOTING AGE POPULATION THAT IS REGISTERED TO VOTE; DOES IT? A THAT IS CORRECT. IT DOESNIT. A ALL RIGHT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: AND NO ONE ASSUMES THAT I T DOES. MS. WINNER: TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT. ALL RIGHT. I .JUST WANTED BY MS. WINNER: F P. O. Bor 2tr.ll LJ Frhgh, taonh C.rol'u 2t!tt L/*3I .M128 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISTON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]| PHOENIX, ARIZONA a AND LOOKING AT 19B2__THE DTFFERENCE BETWEEN 198O AND I9B2--AT LEAST PART OF THE REASON THAT THAT RATIO I,JENT DOI^/N IS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS WENT DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT I S CORRECT. BUT I N tgl4 THE NUMBER I^/ENT DOWN. AND THE RATIO WENT UP. SO ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE iS THAT IN A YEAR SUCH AS 174, t7g OR tgz THERE WAS PERHAPS SOME DROP IN REGISTERED VOTERS DUE TO NON-VOTING IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THE RATIO CHARACTERISTI- CALLY WENT THE OTHER WAY FOR THE BLACKS. AND NOW WE SEE THE INFLUX OF NEW BLACK REGISTRATION BUCKING THE TREND THERE. A THESE STAT I ST I CS WERE TAKEN FROI..I THE OCTOBER REGISTRATION FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS? A THE GENERAL ELECTION; YES. A THAT I.JOULD. HAVE BEEN OCTOBER IN THOSE YEARS? A OCTOBER. A DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, PURGES I^JERE DONE AFTER THE PRES I DENT IAL ELECT I ONS, NOT BEFORE THEM? A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY ARE DONE AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THAT IS WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO TAKE THEM AT THE SAME TIME EACH ELECTION. A ALL R IGHT. NOtr^I, YOU TESTI FIED ABOUT THE UNRELIABILITY OF AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS DONE ALONE; IS F P. O. gor 26lal L, R.baqh. Nodh Ctrorril 2rott 144e,M12g I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2l .r.) 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9O85 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THAT CORRECT ? A I BELIEVE THAT I TESTI CASE ANALYSIS MAY NOT BE PROPERLY THE REST OF THE CASES BEHAVE. A BUT PROFESSOR GROFMAN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, BUT ALSO A THAT CORRECT? FIED THAT THE EXTREME I ND I CAT I VE OF THE I^,AY RELIED NOT ONLY ON REGRESSION ANALYSIS; IS A THAT IS CORRECT. AND I BELIEVE I STATED THAT. A AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS DONE IN CONLJUNCTION WITH AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS CAN PROVI DE A CHECI< ON THE RESULTS? A I DON'T THINK THAT IT COULD NECESSARILY PRO- VIDE THE DEFINITIVE CHECK ON THE RESULTS. I THINK CER- TAINLY ONE WOULD WANT TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT SOME OF THE ACTUAL CASES IN THE MIDDLE AND CHECK THEM BACK AGAINST THE REGRESSION TO SEE.,IF THE REG;ESSiON WAS BEHAViNG PROPERLY. A BUT IT CERTAINLY IS A WAY TO ALERT YOURSELF IF THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS? IT IS ONE WAY OF ALERTING YOUR_ SELF AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE REGRESSiON ANALYSIS-_IS TO ALSO DO AN EXTREME CASE AI.IALYSI S? A ONE OF THE WAYS TO--YES; .JUST AS ONE OF THE WAYS TO DETERMINE THERE MIGHT BE PROBLEMS WITH REGRESSION ANALYSIS IS TO LOOK AT THE EXTREME CASE. - P. O.8or 2tla LJ R.bleh. xodh ctrd'n. 276r r '*441M1l0 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t ,o OQ 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a A A CHECK ON ANALYS I S, BOTH WAYS ? BUT THERE HAS TO BE__THERE WOULD PROPERLY BE THE GREAT MIDDLE RANGE OF THE REGRESSION WHICH YOU DONIT GET FROM THE EXTREME CASE. a I T CORRECT REGRESS ION POINTS IN IN LOOKIt,lc AT PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S RESULTS, IS THAT THE EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS AND THE ANALYSIS CORRESPOND WITHIN A FEW PERCENTAGE A CLOS ELY. ALMOST ALL OF THE CASES? IN MANY OF THE CASES THEY DO CONFORM RATHER IN MOST OF THE CASES? YES. A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID NOT HAVE ANY TURNOUT DATA OR TURNOUT ESTIMATE; IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID? A NO. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SEEN FIGURES ON THE NUMBER OF BLACKS AND THE NUMBER OF WHITES WHO TURNED OUT. CERTAINLY I KNOI.I THAT HE HAD DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN TURNOUT IN THOSE PRIMARY ELECTIONS AND GENERAL TURNOUT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IS THERE ANY WAY TO DETERMINE THE EXACT NUMBER OF BLACKS AND WHITES VJHO VOTED IN EACH ELECTION IN EACH PRECINCT WITHOUT GOING AND COUNTING THE REGISTRATION CARDS ? NOT THAT I KNOW OF. F P. O. Bor 2tla lJ R.breh. Nonn C..oli{ 270tr l-/-+42 KM131 a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 12 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]l PHOENIX, ARIZOT.IA A IN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURE, IS IT STANDARD FOR POLITICAL SCIENTISTS TO COUNT REGISTRATION CARDS TO DETERMINE BLACK AND WHITE TURNOUT? A I AM NOT SURE THAT IT HAS EVER BEEN DONE. BUT THAT DOESNIT MEAN THAT IT ISNIT A VALiD WAY TO OPERATE. I KNOW THAT IN TERMS OF ANALYZiNG POLITICAL DATA FOR VOTE ANALYSIS FOR TRYING TO WIN ELECTIONS AND DETERMINE ELECTIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES T{HEN PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO THE VOTER REGiSTRATION FORMS AND AFFIDAVITS. SO IT CERTAINLY ISNIT BEYOND THE REALM OF THINGS YOU COULD DO. A BUT IT IS UNUSUAL? A IF YOU WERE.JUST DEALING IN AN ACADEMIC SiTUATION PROBABLY YOU WOULDNIT GO TO THE TROUBLE OF GETTING THAT DATA. A AND THE REASON IS THAT IT IS EXTREMELY TIME_ CONSUI'4ING TO DO THAT__AND TEDIOUS? A AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF HOW EXTREME YOU THINK IT IS. a But IT woulD BE A MATTER oF GoING THRouGH CARD BY CARD? A YES; DEFINITELY. A AND DETERMINING WHETHER EVERYBODY VOTED AND I.JHAT RACE THEY WERE? A YES. A HAVE YOU EVER DONE THAT IN ANY ANALYSIS THAT a P, O. Box 2l1m Ll Frbroh, Nonh C.rofln. 270r r :t44 3:4t3 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA YOU DID? A NO--NOT FOR THIS KIND OF A STUDY. AGAIN, I HAVE DONE IT IN TERMS OF POLITICAL ANALYSIS--PRACTICAL POLITICS DEALING WITH REAL ELECTIONS. YES. a BUT yOU HAVE NOT DONE IT FOR THIS KIND OF STUDY ? .. A I T DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU CHARACTERI ZE AS ''TH I S KIND OF STUDY.II A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE METHOD THAT DR. GROFMAN USED FOR ESTIMATING TURNOUT? A NO. I CANIT SAY THAT I REALLY AM. A DID YOU READ THAT PORTION OF PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT 12 WHICH EXPLAINS HOW HE ESTIMATED TURNIOUT? A NO. a so you CAN,T sAy WHETHER oR NOT THAT METHOD-- YOU CANTT SAY WHETHER OR NOT THA; METHOD HAS FLAWS IN IT? A HAS WHAT? a FLAWS ? - A I AM SORRY. I DONIT UNDERSTAND YOUR WORDS. JUDGE BR I TT: THE WITI'JESS: BY MS. I,/ I NNER : FLAWS-_F-L-A_W_S. OH, FLAI^,S . I AM SORRY. A IF YOU DID NOT READ THE METHOD THAT HE USED FOR DETERMINING TURI.IOUT AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR I,IITH TT, YO CANNOT SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT HAS ANY FLAWS IN IT; CAN YOU a P. O. Bor 28rs lJ R.bleh. Nodh C.rornr ?76il ltr *riL- '1 J.(M131 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36],9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN SAY ABOUT THE REGRESSION ANALYSIS IS THAT IT PRODUCES MATHEMATICAL RESULTS WHICH DO NOT MATCH REALITY. NOW, I,JHETHER HE HAS A FLAW IN HIS METHODOLOGY OF ESTIMATING TURNOUT, I DONIT KNOW. BUT HE HASNIT PROVEN THAT THERE ISNIT A FLAW. a oKAy. AND yOU BASE THAT ON EXHIBTTS 16(E) AND (F)? A THAT IS CORRECT. A IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THOSE TWO EXHIBITS ARE JUST SIMPLY A MISTAKE? A IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS POSSIBLE THERE ARE OTHER MISTAKES IN THE EXHIBITS, TOO. A AND CERTAINLY THERE MIGHT BE SOME MISTAKES IN ANY ANALYSiS OF THIS MAGNITUDE--SOME MISTAKES? A THERE MAY BE A NUMBER OF MISTAKES, INCLUDING MISTAKES IN METHODOLO.GY. a BUT YOU DONIT KNOW OF ANY MISTAKES iN THE METHODOLOGY AS TO ESTIMATING TURNOUT; DO YOU? .JUDGE PHI LLi PS : HE HAS ANSWERED THAT. BY MS. WINNER: a ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNoW OF ANY OR DO YOU RECALL ANY OF PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S ANALYSIS WITH REGARD T DURHAM COUNTY WHICH DEPENDED ON HIS TURNOUT ESTIMATE AS INDICATED IN EXHI BITS (E) AND (F)? A MY RECOL LECT I ON I,/AS THAT I N H I S DURHAM ANALYSI F P, O. Box 26tS LJ R.btgh, No(h c..orr.. 2761I 1,-44,5 M1l4 t 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I t0 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t o, 23 24 25 PREClSION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZCNA HE WAS PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT, PARTICULARLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU HAVE THREE BLACKS--I AM SORRY-_THREE CANDIDATES RUNNING AND YOU HAVE ONE OF THEM h'HO IS A BLACK AND THEY ARE THE ONLY MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATES, THAT IT REALLY DOESNIT MATTER WHAT THE ANALYSIS IS. THEY ARE GOING TO GET ELECTED. SO HE IS DEPENDING VERY HEAVILY, I THINK, IN DURHAM COUNTY ON THE NATURE OF THE COUNTY ITSELF. AND NONE OF THAT ANALYSIS DEPENDED ON THE TURN OUT IN DURHAM COUNTY; DID IT? I I.,OULD ASSUME THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO USE TURN- OUT AS SOME FACTOR IN DETERMINING PROPERLY WHETHER OR NOT I'IAKING A PREDICTION ABOUT FUTURE ELECTION OUTCOMES IN DURHAM COUNTY. I WOULD HAVE TO READ HIS ENTIRE TESTIMONY TO MAKE SURE THAT HE DIDNIT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT. a so You .JUST. DONi T nrrqEmarR WHETHER OR NOT HIS TESTIMONY WAS BASED ON THIS TURNOUT PART OF 16(E) NNO (T I WOULD HAVE TO.SAY I DONIT REMEMBER. A NOW, DO YOU AGREE THAT A STANDARD METHODOLOGY POLITICAL SCIENCE FOR DETERMINING VOTING POLARIZATION TO LOOK AT COP.RELAT I ONS ? YES. IN IS A AND THAT STEPS THAT SHOULD BE WHETHER OR NOT THERE THAT WOULD BE AT LEAST ONE OF THE PER FORl.4ED I N ORDER TO DETERM I NE IS SUBSTANTIAL SIGNIFICANT POLARIZE F P. O. Bor 2al$ lJ Rrbtoli. Noilh clrotrn. ?76tr 'tr.t* ti(. Mil5 1 , 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 r)K a PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA VOTING? A YES. a t'/out_D you AGREE THAT ALL OF THE CORRLATIONS THAT DR. GROFMAN ARRIVED AT OR FOUND IN HIS STUDIES WERE STATISTI CA!-LY S IGNI FI CANT? A I THINK I ALREADY STATED THAT THEY WERE STA- T iSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. A ALL OF THEM? A HE GAVE THE SIGNIFICANCE FACTOR OF THEI4. IT WAS .OOOO1, WHICH }JAS THE BEST THAT THE PRINTOUT COULD S HOW. A AND YoU AGREE THAT THAT IS STATISTIcALLY SIGNIFICANT? A I AGREE THAT HIS CORRELATION BETWEEN THOSE TI^IO VARIABLES IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. a h/ITH REGARD TO YOUR '=rrIMONy ABOUT POSITION oN THE BALLOT, COULD you LOOK AT EXHIBIT 14(D)? A I WILL TRY AND F.IND IT HERE. MS. WINNER: AT THIS POINT, TO RELATE BACK TO THE PREVIOUS TESTIMONY, IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT DEFENDANTS WILL STIPULATE THAT, IN FACT, IN MECKLEN- BURG COUNTY IN THE PRIMARY THE CANDiDATES ARE NOT ROTATED ON THE BALLOT. MR. LEONARD: rTIT STIPULATION IS THAT IN THE PRIMARIES THEY ARE NOT; BUT IN THE GENERAL F P. O. Bor 2814 LJ R.l.rgh, Nodh C./orna 27El r 'fi I ts. -*"t * t 1tl6 1 2 3a 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l q, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZG{AP. O. Bor 2tl8 LJ R.bloh. Nodh c.,orn. :Ior r ELECTION THEY ARE. THAT IS, THEY ARE LISTED ALPHA_ BETICALLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION AND THE PRIMARY. MS. WINNER: STIPULATION__- AS I UNDERSTOOD THE .JUDGE pHILLIpS: (trurrnpOSING) Wrll, IF COUNSEL ARE NOT PREPARED TO STIPULATE, LETIS DONTT HAVE THE --- MS. WINNER: I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD AGREED. (TNTTRpoSING) I AM SoRRY JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU CAN WORK OUT A STIPULATION, PUT IT IN WRITING. AND WE WILL TAKE IT. MS. tr,J I NNER : BY MS. WINNER: I APOLOG I ZE. a LooKING AT DEFENDANTS' EXHTBIT 14(D), yOU HAVE TESTIF]ED THAT RICHARDSON?S PLACE ON THE BALLOT COULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE LOST; IS THAT CORRECN A YES. THAT IS CORRECT. A AND HE IS CANDIDATE NUMBER 8? A YES. A IS IT CORRECT THAT THE PERSON NEXT TO RICHARD- SON--THAT IS, CANDIDATE NUMBER 7-_CAME IN THIRD IN THAT ELECTION? A YES. A AND THAT THE CANDIDATE NEXT TO THAT PERSON, CANDIDATE NUMBER 6, CAME IN SECOND IN THE ELECTION? 1448 1t3 7 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 LI 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A a A a I AI-4 NOT SURE THAT HE DIDNI T COME IN FIRST HE CAME IN FIRST IN THE ELECTION? YES. AND THAT WAY OVER ON THE OTHER PAGE, CA].,IDIDATE NUMBER 15--WHO I BEt.IEVE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVENTH REPUBLICAN--GOT 3,000 MORE VOTES THAN MR. RICHARDSON GOT? A YES. I THINK YOU HAVE TO NOTE, THOUGH, OF COURSE, THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE ON A DIFFERENT ROW IN THE BALLOT. AND I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO RECALL THAT MY TESTIMONY IS THAT THE BALLOT POSITION HAS AN EFFECT ON THE VOTES RECEIVED. I DIDNIT SAY IT WAS GOING TO BE TOTALLY DETERMINANT. OBVIOUSLY IF IT WERE, THE TOP ALPHABETICAL CANDIDATE WOULD ALWAYS WIN EVERY ELECTiON. A AT LEAST IN THIS ELECTION, WHILE MR. RICHARD- SON WAS IN EIGHTH PLACE, THE CANDIDATE WHO WAS NUMBER 7 IN BOTH THE DEMOCRATIC ROW AND THE REPUBLICAN ROW DID SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER THAN HE DID? A THAT I S R I GHT. BUT I I\,OULD SAY THAT .3 OF 1 PERCENT OF VOTE DIFFERENCE COULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY POSITION ON BALLOT JUST AS WELL AS ANY OTHER FACTOR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN THAT IF CANDIDATE NUMBER 7 WERE HIGHER ON THE BALLOT, HE MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN MORE VOTES. a Notr,, LOOKING AT PLAINTIFFS t EXHIBIT 14(D), I BEL I EVE YOU ALSO TE ST I F I ED THAT RI C}IARDSON I S SUPPORToE P. O. 8ot 2tl$ Ll Fal.roh. Nonh c.rorin. ?7ol r !,4!*9 l'1138 1 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l .rq OQ 24 25 o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AMOI.JG BLACK VOTERS COULD EXPLA I N THE RESULTS OF THAT ELECTION; IS TI]AT P.IGHT? THAT IS RIGHT. AND THE DIFFERENCE IN THE SUPPORT BETI^/EEN BLACK VOTERS FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 92 PERCENT AND B8 PERCENT; IS THAT CORRECT? ACCORDING TO DR. GROFMAI'IIS REGRESSION--YES. AND THAT WAS WHAT YOU I^'ERE RELYING ON iN MAK THAT ASSUMPTION? FI ELD. NO. IT WAS NOT? I LOOKED AT THE VOTES-_THE ACTUAL VOTES IN THE a cAN YOU COMPARE WHAT PROPORTION OF THE WHITE VOTERS VOTED FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON BY DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS? A CERTAINLY. I AM SORRY. DO YOU WANT ME--- a (lrureRposrNG) I^toulD You sAY WHAT THosE ARE? A YES. 42 PERCENIT, ACCORDING TO HIS REGRESSION, VOTED FOR BERRY. AND 29 PERCENT VOTED FOR RICHARDSON. A WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH VOTE DIFFERENTIAL TO ACCOUNT FOR THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION? A I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE CONSIDERABLY MORE. A AND IN FACT, I F YOU COMPARE THE VOTES THAT RICHARDSON GOT FROM WHITE VOTERS TO THE VOTES OF ANY A ^ P. O. 8or 28163 LJ Rrhroh, Nodh c.ronn. 276il J 450 Mllg 1 a, 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L o.) 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX ARIZONA OTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, IN EVERY CASE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH VOTES TO ACCOUNT FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN THE ELECT I ON ? A THAT IS CORRECT. A WOULD YOU AGREE THAT ANOTHER FACTOR IN DETERMINING ELECTION OUTCOME WOULD BE ACCESS TO FINANCIAL SUPPORT ? A YES. a ALL RIGHT. NOW, MOVING ON TO EXHIBITS 1l(K), (M) AND (o) VIHICH YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT PREVIOUSLY WITH REGARD TO MR. POLK, WOULD YOU CONTRAST THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR MR. POLK TO THE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE VOTERS VIHO VOTED FOR POLK IN EACH OF THOSE COUNTIESi A l^IHICH ESTI|'4ATE DO YOU I,IANT ME TO USE? A THE REGRESSiON ESTIMATE? A IN CABARRUS, IT IS 94/37. A 94 BEING THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS? A 94 BLACK, 37 WHI.TE. IN MECKLENBURG, IT IS 94 AGAIN AND 1I WHITE. AND IN THE COMBiNED-_THE ACTUAL DISTRICT--IT IS 94/33. a ALL RIGHT. DiD YOU LOOK AT ANY--I BELIEVE THE POINT THAT YOU I^/ERE MAKING WAS THE HE GOT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE VOTE IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTYi IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT IS CORRECT. P. O. 601 28t& lJ Frblgh. Nodh C.iotn. 2701t iqi5l Y140 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A DID YOU LOOK AT ANY OF THE OTHER FOUR SENATE RACES THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID THAT INCLUDED BOTH CABARRUS AND MECKLENBURG COUNTIES? A NOT IN REGARD TO THAT POINT. A DID YOU LOOK AT THE PRIMARY IN THAT ELECTION? A I LOOKED AT IT. YES. . A DID YOU COMPARE THE I'JUMBER OF WHiTE VOTES THAT POLK GOT IN THE PRIMARY IN EACH OF THE COUNTIES? A NO. A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT OF THE FIVE ANALY- SES THAT CONTAIN THOSE TWO COUNTIES, YOU HAVE POINTED OUT THE ONLY ONE IN WHICH THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT MORE VOTES IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A IF I SAID THAT I HAVENIT LOOKED AT IT FOR THAT POINT, I CAN'T AGREE WITH yOU 0N THE OTHER POINT. A I^'OULD YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS RACIALLY POLARIZE VOTING IN THE GENE*O' .EL"TION IN THE MECKLEI'IBURG COUNTY FOR THE SENATE IN L9B2? A POLARIZED VOTING? a YES? A YES. A IN EACH OF THE ELECTIONS CONTAINED IN EXHIBITS 73 THROUGH 18, IVERE THERE ANY THAT DID NOT HAVE RACiALLY POLAR I ZF-D VOT i NG ? A I DO NOT RECALL SEEING ONE. F P, O. Bor 2816 Ll R.bioh, Nonh Carotrnr 278t r 4,52 ':l -ir- 1414 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457 | PHOENIX, ARIZONA a Now, AS DEFINITION OF BLOC I S THAT CORRECT? I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU HAVE A DIFFEREN VOTING THAN RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING; YES. A IS THAT DEFINITION OF BLOC VOTiNG DIFFERENT THAN PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S DEFINITION OF SUBSTANTIAL AND SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING? A I THINK THAT HE USES THE TERM GENERALLY THE SAME. HOW HE DETERI'lINES WHAT BECOMES STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN MINE. A AND IN YOUR METHOD, YOU SAY THAT YOU MUST LOOK AT THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES TO KNOW VIHETHER OR NOT IT IS RACIAL BLOC VOTING; IS THAT RIGHT? WHETHER IT IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. SUBSTANT IVELY S I GN T TT CNT'ITI A SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT. I AM TRYING TO DIFFERENTIATE HERE BETWEEN .THE PRESENCE OF STATISTICALLY SIGNIFiCANT pOLARTZATION--I.E., A HIGH CORRELTION COEF- FIC]ENT__AND',,^/HETHER OR NOT THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNI- FICANT TO THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE IN THOSE RACES. AND YOU S I I4PLY D I SAGREE Wi TH DR. GROFMAN ABOUT HOW TO DETERMINE THAT? THAT IS RIGHT. NOtr/, YOU MADE A PREDI CT I ON ABOUT 19 8 4 AND A a a P. O.8or 26lA LI erl.loh, Nodh Cerotin. 270r t iL.i 5 3 |t42 1 2 3 4 b 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 a PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH REGARD TO THE ELECTION OF BLACK CANDIDATES TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1984; IS THAT RIGHT? I THINK WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH DATA TO SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT DR. GROFMAN HAD DRAWN. THERE IS ALSO SOME DATA WHICH COULD INDICATE THAT THE REGI STRATION TREND l.IILL CONTINUE AND THAT ONE COULD EXPECT, BASED UPON PAST RESULTS, THAT THE INCUMBEN RUNNING FOR ELECTION I/OULD BE ABLE TO BE RE-ELECTT:D. AND DOES YOUR EXPECTATION ABOUT 198'+ DEPEND ON THOSE INCUMBENTS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN ELECTED SEEKING RE-ELECTION? NOT COMPLETELY; NO. TT DEPENDS IN PART ON THAT? A IT DEPENIDS IN PART ON THAT AND TO A MAJOR PART ON THE FACT THAT IT HAS HAPPENED_-THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ELECTED, THAT THAT PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN PRESENT I N THOSE DI STR I CTS. o\ t982, S DO YOU EXPECT TURNOUT TO INCREASE IN 1984 FRO iNCE THAT WILI. BE A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR? YE S. A IS IT GENERALLY TRUE THAT iT IS NOT SAFE TO PREDICT FROM VOTER BEHAVIOR IN NON-PRESIDENTIAL YEARS TO VOTER BEHAVIOR IN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS? I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH YEARS I F P. O. 8ox 26lA Ll Rrl.loh. Nonh crroln. 276r l tr /*lj 4 M 14l I 2 3 a 4 b 6 7 8 I t0 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA ORDER TO MAKE A PREDICTION. I THINK THAT YOU COULD NOT SAY, 'I I AI4 GO I NG TO I GNORE EVERYTH I NG THAT HAPPENED I N I B2--THE PoLITICS oF NoRTH cARoLINA IN '82, THE REGIS- TRATION SHIFTS IN '82. AND I AM GOING TO SAY WHATEVER HAPPENED IN'BO IS WHAT I AM GOING TO USE AS THE BASIS OF I8I+.tI SO I CANIT REALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT PREM I SE. a BUT yOU ALSO CAN'T JUST USE t82 TO PREDTCT '84, SINCE ONE IS A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND ONE IS A NON- PRESIDENTIAL YEAR? THAT IS CORRECT. WERE THERE ANY ELECTIONS IN WHICH YOU FOUND SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZATION? I THINK THAT LOOKING AT THE ELECTIONS INDIVI- DUALLY, PERHAPS ONE COULD SAY YES. THERE WERE SOME S ITUATIONS A DO YOU RECALL WHICH ONES THEY WERE? A I WOULD SAY THAT^ THE ELECTION IN DISTRICT 8 HAD A HIGH DEGREE OF POLARIZATION. AND IT MiGHT BE, INDEED, A MARGINAL CASE. A YOU DID NOT CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION OF THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN ANY OF THESE PLACES; DID YOU? A SOI.IE OF THE FACTORS \^/HICH I MENTIONED AS BEING NECESSARY TO PROVE OR TO FORM AN OPINIION OF SUBSTANTIALLY P. O. Bor 28153 a-, Fal.lgh. Nodh Crroh^. 276tr i 1,-r:;91,- a (-r' L, 11t+4 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L o, 23 24 25 SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARI TO OSTAIN. AND I F ONE I{AS ON THAT, ONE WOULD I,/ANT TO NOT LOOK AT THEM ALL. A .AND IN FACT, WHEN I WEEK AND A HALF AGO, YOU SAID ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE VOTER THAT RIGHT? THAT IS CORRECT. A AND SO WHATEVER YOU YOU HAVE COLLECTED THAT DATA IN ZED VOTING ARE VERY DI INDEED TRYING TO PROVE LOOK AT THEI"I ALL. AND FFICUL A CASE I DID TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION A THAT YOU HADN I T LOOKED AT RETURNS AT THAT TIMEi ISNIT HAVE BASED YOUR OPINION ON THE LAST TEN DAYS? THAT I S CORRECT. YOU DIDNIT GO TO ANY OF THOSE COUNTIES DURING THAT TIME; DID YOU? GO TO ANY OF THE COUI.ITIES? YES? NO. AND YOU HAVE NOT.BEEN SITTING iN THE COURTROOM FOR T!-{E DURAT I ON OF THE TR I AL; HAVE YOU ? NOT THE ENTIRE DURATiON; NO. NOW, YOU TESTIFIED SOMETHII.IG ABOUT CONSISTENCY MEANING PRODUCING GERRYMANDERING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN MEANT BY CONS I STENCY \^IAS THAT I F ALL OF THE PARTS OF AN ELECTION DISTRICT RANK THE SAME CAND I DATE F I RST, THAT THAT CAND I DATE I'lUST 1^/ I N ? PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 875.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O 8ox 2Etd! lJ n.hrgh, Nonn Ctrorh. 276I .? -L 4r6 1145 1 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085 779.3619 876.457 1 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2818 Ll R.blgh, Nonh Coor,n. 2761r SOMEBODY WINS WILL WIN THE THAT PREMISE. CANNOT QUIBBLE I"JITH THE PREMISE THAT I F T N EVERY PREC I NCT IN THE D I STR I CT, THEY RACE. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN QUIBBLE WITH a .HoI^/ DoES THE NOTION THAT IF SOMEBODY WINS IN ALL OF THE PARTS THEY WILL WIN IN THE TOTALITY EQUATE TO GERRYMANDERI NG? A ONE OF THE GOALS OF GERRYMANDERING IS TO FORE- STALL COMPETITION. AND ONE OF THE WAYS YOU CREATE NON- COMPETITION IN GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS IS TO PUT AS MANY PEOPLE OF THE SAII1E TYPE-_THE MINoRITY WHICH YoU ARE .TRYiNG TO SUPPRESS BY THE GERRYMANDER--INTO ONE DISTRICT. AND THAT DISTRICT WILL BE VERY CONSISTENT. a ANOTHER ? DO YOU MEAN CONSISTENT FROM ONE ELECTION TO IT VJOULD MORE LIKELY BE MORE CONSISTENT IN- TERNALLY WITHIN ITS PARTS. AND iT V/OULD BE CERTAINLY MORE CONSISTENT FROM ELECTION TO ELECTION. THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO GAIN A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY AND TO KEEP IT. a Now, you sAy you DREW AN ELECTION FOR WILSON- EDGECOMBE-NASH--A MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT FOR THE WILSON- EDGECOMBE_NASH HOUSE DISTRICT? THAT I S CORRECT. a AND THAT t^lAS NOT--THE THE ONLY h/AY TO DRAW A MAJORITY WAY YOU DREI{ IT VIAS NOT BLACK HOUSE DISTRICT IN 1114 6 a I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1.) 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 THAT AREA; V/AS I T ? NO. A I I{AS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE SHAT]E OF THE DISTRICT THAT YOU DREIV. DID Y'OU SAY THAT IT WAS SIMILAR TO THE SHA-PE OF THE CURRENT HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29? CAN YOU SEE HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29? NO. I AM SORRY. WOULD YOU LIKE TO APPROACH THE MAP? DO YOI.' i,lEANI Ii{ OIJiLF'ORD COUNTY? .\ i'l i) ,,; : I COIJLD SIlOI{'.'0U, i a WAS THAT I T : ;. Ciiul-:) l i ..i'l i r/i:: TC . NO. THAT I5 A.LL ilJCHT. YOUR PROBLEM WITH IT SKIRTED AROUND THE EDGE OF THE COUNTIES? IT I'IOULD SORT OF LIKE BE A PAIR OF PINCERS COMING DOWIJ FROI.4 THE TOP ONTO THE COUNTY. I THINK THAT IS A GOOD GRAPHIC ILLUSTRATIOT'l OF IT. BUT TI{ERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT IT MIGHT BE MY EXPERIENCE WITH REDiSTRICTING IS THERE DO ARE ALWAY S OTHER I',AYS _.ALWAY S . A AND YOU ARE NOT SAYING THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO GERRYMANDER iN THAT DISTRICT TO PUT IN A MAJORiTY BLACK DISTRICT; AP.E YOU? A i HAVE NOT YET SEEN A DISTRICT I/HICH i WOULD CLASSIFY AS UNGERRYMANDERED THAT WOULD FULFILL YOUR PRECISIOhI BEPORTING AND THANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF 2. O. gor 2alg3 tJ Breroh, No.h Jiforrn. 4761t .M147 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 i1 12 13 14 16 16 17 18 19 n 2l ,q 23 24 25 REQUIREMENT IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE ILLUSTRATIVE DISTRICT THAT YOU SHOW ON GOES iNTO THREE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND THE MAJOR CITIES IN THE THREE COUNTIES DETERMINED. TO BE A GERRYMANDER. BLACK. THE THIS MAP WHICH SEPARATES TWO OF I THINK COULD BE :.iELi- , i-,; I 1'H[ ;tECORD SHO],, q l'lAS DIt?,:lCTEl-) TO THE DISTRI EXHiBIT NUI,IBER B--- ( I NrrRpos r NG ) (A) . (A). MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.A571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA NOW, PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT--- .JUDGE PHILLIPS: DID THE RECORD SHOW THE EXHIBIT TO WHICH THAT LAST STATEMENT WAS DIRECTED? MS. ii I l.ll'!t-i? : NUMtsE P. B (A) . i BELIEVE IT IS EXHIBIT rHAT SHOWN a YOU EVER A a THE ON WiTt.lESS t i..,\i.i .-,i.lii"ll GINGLES PLAINTI I:FS I MS . I^J I NNER : .JUDGEI,PHILLIPS: BY MS. WINNER: PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT IN THIS CASE, HAVE DONE AN ANALYSIS OF RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING? NO. DID YOU HAVE ANY PRIOR EXPERIENCE IN ANALYZIN RACIAL DILUTIONS IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT SITUATION? ONLY AS iT WOULD PERTAIN TO THE POSSIBILITY O MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE STATE OF MISSTSSIPPI. A AND IN MISSISSIPPI THE ISSUE I,IITH MULTI-}4EMBE DISTRICTS WAS A ONE-PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE; WASNIT IT? PRECISION REPORTING AND TRA}JSCSIBING, INC. lF P. O Bor 28ta :LJ n.t rsn, Norlh c.roln. 270t1 tr" 455. M14B I 2 3 4 6 6 1 I I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 n 2r o., OQ 24 25o PBECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2tta3 u R.a.lsh, |iod C.roril irltt A NOT REALLY; NOT REALLY. IT WASN'T A ONE- PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE. THE COURT IN MY RECOLLECTION TOLD THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI TO DECIDE THE CASE ON ONE-MAN ONE_VOTE. BUT MISSISSIPPI HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE RATHER THAN A ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE ISSUE. A YOUR PARTICIPATI.ON IN THAT CASE DID NOT INVOL AN ANALYSIS OF THE RACIAL DILUTION IN THE MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN MISSISSIPPI; DID IT? A NO. MY PARTICIPATION IN MISSISSIPPI INVOLVED THE DRAWING OF DISTRICTS WHICH WOULD NOT DISCRI}4INATE AGAINST BLACKS AND WHICH WOULD SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 5. a I AM GOING TO ASK yOU TO READ A PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION WHICH I TOOK OF YOU THE OTHER DAY. MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? YES..JUDGE PHILLIPS: BY MS. WINNER: a START WrTH LINE -20 PAGE ].6=STARTING WITH LINE 20 LINE 6 ON PAGE 16? AND GO ON TO LINE 6 ON AND PAGE 15 AND GOING TO 7II--AS YOU WERE ION OF MY PRIOR EXPERIENCEII--I AM OKAY 'I...SKIPPING ON TO NUMBER GOING THROUGH YOUR SUMMAT TEST IMONY--''THE ONLY REAL SORRY. 146[t (M1t+9 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IISKIPPING TO NUMBER 7; IS THAT TRUE?I' THAT I,/AS YOUR QUESTION. MY ANSI^/ER WAS: tI...THE ONLY REAL EXPERIENCE THAT I HAVE HAD I.JITH MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS IN MISSISSIPPI IN TRYING TO EVALUATE THE ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE RAMIFICATIONS OF THOSE DISTRICTS, WHICH I5 NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS"--I.E., THiS CASE HERE. I'. ..QUESTION: YOUR EXPERIENCE IN MISSISSIPPI DID NOT CONCERN RACIAL DILUTION WITH REGARD TO MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS? ANSWER: EXcEPT To THE EXTENT THAT RACIAL DILUTION WAS AT ISSUE IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. QUESTION: BUT IT WASNIT A CONSIDERATIoN OF THE DILUTING EFFECT OF MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS? ANSI^IER: THAT IS CORRECT.II THANK YOU. NOW, YOU HAD DONE SOME ANALYSIS OF ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA PRIOR TO YOUR DEPOSITION A I^,EEK AND A HALF AGO; HADNIT YOU? YE S. A AND AT THAT THAT RACE \.'AS A FACTOR HAD LOOKED AT; I S THAT YES. a AND DO YOU ALSO AGREE BLACK VOTERS GENERALLY INCREASES TIME, I BELIEVE YOU HAD DETERMiNED IN A NUI,IBER OF THE ELECTIONS YOU CORRECT ? THAT THE TURNOUT OF WHEN THERE ARE BLACK A P. O.8ox 2tl(] Ll Rd.h6. ,{mh crdla etGlt 146 r. M150 1 2 3o' .X 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 CANDIDATES IN THE ELECTION? A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN MAKE THAT STATEMENT DEFINITIVELY. MY OPINION WOULD BE THAT THE LIKELIHOOD WOULD BE THAT IT WOULD. YES. MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. R, E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 2:10 P.M. BY MR. LEONARD: A DR. HOFELLER, qID YOU ATTEMPT TO ANALYZE ANY OTHER GROFMAN EXHIBITS WITH RESPECT TO THEIR MATHEMATICAL ACCURACY ? A NO. MR. LEONARD: OTHER THAN SOME EXHIBITS, IF THE COURT PLEASE, I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. E X A.M I N A T I O N 2:10 P.M. BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS: a DocToR, LET ME ASK A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. DID i UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERE ASKED BY THE LEGISLATURE iIN CONNECTION WITH ITS LAST REDISTRICTING EFFORT TO IDENTIFY THOSE CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTER POPULATIONS IN THE STATE WHICH WOULD PERMIT THE CREATION OF SINGLE- MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT WOULD PASS MUSTER ON THE ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE REQUIREMENT? PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. ior rltGl lJ Rraagar. ,aodh Crroth. ,i il 1462 YI51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l qo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.A571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA YOUR HONOR, THE SpECIFIC ADt,tONITION HERE WAS TO LOOK THROUGH ALL OF THE COUNTIES IN THE STATE IN PARTICULAR AND TO FIND OUT WHERE THERE WERE CONCENTRATI OF BLACK RESIDENTS--RESIDENTS, NOT VOTERS--IN TERMS OF THE COUNTIES AS A WHOLE. AND THAT BROUGHT OUT WHERE THE CONCENTRATIONS WERE ON COUNTYWIDE BASIS, I{HICH IDENTIFIED THE NORTHEAST. THEN ALSO I WAS TO LOOK AT THE LARGE METROPOLI TAN COUNTIES AND TRY AND IDENTIFY IF THERE WERE SUFFICIE NUMBERS OF BLACK RESIDENTS WHERE ONE WOULD SUSPECT THAT TH.ERE WAS A POSSIBLE CONCENTRATION OUT OF WHICH YOU COULD MAKE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. I DIDNIT HAVE CENSUS TRACT MAPS AT THE TIME. SO I COULDNIT SAY WHETHER THEY WERE ADJACENT. BUT AS A BASIS OF THAT, I DID INDEED REPORT THAT THERE WERE CoNCET.ITRATIONS IN CERTAIN AREAS, BOTH NON-COVERED AND COVERED COUNTIES. A I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT.IN CONNECTION WITH THAT ENDEAVOR YOU PREPARED A MAP THAT IDENTIFIED THE LOCATION OF THOSE CONCENTRATIONS? A NO, YOUR HONOR. I .JUST NARROWED IT DOI'JN TO CITIES WITHIN THE METROPOLITAN AREAS. I SAID WITHIN, FOR INSTANCE, THE CITY OF DURHAM, THE CITY OF WINSTON- SALEM, MECKLENBURG, THOSE CONCENTRATIONS ARE THERE. AND THERE ARE ENOUGH BLACKS IN THE CITY AS OPPOSED TO THE - 2. O. Eor 2al6 LJ h.bch. ildn cr.rr ,rar! J.463 ML52 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 r3 14 15 l6 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 2g 24 25 PREC]SION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIIONA BLACK RESIDENTS THAT MAY BE DISPERSED THROUGHOUT THE RURAL AREAS. THE ONLY SPECIFIC DISTRiCT THAT I ACTUALLY SAT DOWN AND DREW II,AS IN THE RURAL NORTHEAST. THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY I COULD DETERMINE IF THE PIECES COULD BE PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY. BUT I CAME AWAY FROM THAT STUDY CONVINCED THAT IN CERTAIN METROPOLITAN COUNTIES THERE WAS THE POSSIBILITY TO CREATE SOME DISTRICTS. A WHAT ABOUT THE MAP THAT YOU DREW IN CONNECTIO WITH HOUSE DISTRiCT 8 IN WILSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH? WAS THA I N CONNECT I ON I'IITH THAT ? A NO. THAT WAS AT A LATER TIME. THAT WAS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO. a WHAT WAS THAT IN RESPONSE TO? A THAT WAS REALLY IN RESPONSE TO MY WANTING TO KNOW WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES WERE THERE. A DID ANYBODY IN THE LEGISLATURE KNOW THAT YOU HAD DONE THAT? -^ A I CANIT SAY. WELL, I HAD DONE THAT DISTRICT- THE NORTHEAST DISTRICT. I CANIT SPECIFICALLY TESTIFY WHO MAY HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LEGISLATURE. A WERE YOU PRESENT DURING DR. GROFMANIS TESTI- MONY IN WHICH POTENTIAL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS COMPAR- ABLE TO THAT SHOWN ON THE GINGLES EXHIBIT 8(A), VIHICH IS BEFORE US, WERE TALKED ABOUT IN CONNECTION WITH F P. O. lor 2816:t tJ R.Hsn. xodh C.ro{[ 276tr 1,4,$& 153 1 2 3o 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l ,., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457]' PHOENIX, ARIZONA MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM .AND WAKE? YES. a DID yOU GET A LOOK AT THE OUTLINE OF THOSE POTENTIAL DISTRICTS? YES. YES; I DID. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO THE GERRYMANDER_ ING EFFECT THAT MIGHT APPEAR IN THOSE THAT YOU TESTIFIED TO IN CONNECTION WITH THE NASH-WILSON-EDGECOMBE? A I THINK THAT CERTAINLY IN MANY OF THOSE DIS- TRICTS--AND YOU KIND OF HAV.E TO TAKE THEM ONE BY ONE-- REASONABLE PEOPLE OR I WOULD SAY THAT SOME OF THEM HAVE VERY STRANGE SHAPES AND COULD BE GERRYMANDERS. I THINK THAT SOME OF THEM, IN FACT, END UP BEING DILUTED BECAUSE oF PACKING IN SOME OF THOSE COUNTIES, TOO. BUT I THINK THAT AS LONG--- a (trurrnposING) you HAVEN'T REALLY ADDRESSED THEM, THOUGH, TO FORM A SPECIFIC OPINION OF THE KIND THAT YOU GAVE HERE IN CONNECTION }JITH THE NASH-WILSON- EDGE COMBE ? I \^touLDNrT SAY THAT, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD SAy THAT I F I WERE TO DRAW SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS I.IITHIN THOSE COUNTIES, I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY DRAW THEM THAT WAY. I THINK THERE WOULD BE BETTER WAYS TO DRAW THEM. SO YOU DONIT KNOW BUT WHAT THERE MAY BE I,IAYS OTHER, THAN THE WAYS DEPICTED WITHIN THOSE RED LINES IN f-t p. O. &i iuGt L-l i.l.loll Xor$ Crrolln arltt x465 :M154 I 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 l4 16 16 t7 18 19 n 21 oo 23 24 25 XX 5 PRECISION BEPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIiONA THOSE COUNTIES THAT MIGHT AVOID ANY GERRYMANDERING PROBLEMS ? A IN SOME OF THEM; YES. I THINK IN MECKLENBURG IN PARTICULAR ONE WOULD HAVE TO DRAW VERYIIWEIRDLY SHAPED DISTRICTS TO INCLUDE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THE BLACK POPULATION. I THINK IN THE OTHER THREE COUNTIES THAT DISTRICTS COULD BE DRAI''N THAT I'/OULD BE ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS OF GERRYMANDERING. .,UDGE PHILLTPS: THANK YOU. MR. LEOIJARD: QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. I JUST HAVE ONE OTHER FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2|L5 P.M. BY MR. LEONARD: A WHO ACTUALLY RETAINED YOU, DR. HOFELLER? . A YOU DID. A AND THE REPORT T.HAT YOU I^,ERE SHOwN EARLIER BY COUNSEL AND THE MAPS THAT YOU PREPARED--WHO DID YOU GIVE THOSE TO AFTER THEY WERE COMPLETED? A TO YOU. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING? MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU. (l/{ITNESS EXCUSED. ) F P, O, &r 2tt(t lJ i.|.te,t. N.in C.@nE 2?,fi 1466 M155 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 l9 20 2t oq 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIIONA MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, WE HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS BEFORE }\lE REST THAT WE ARE ABOUT TO.PRAY TOO, IF I MIGHT TAKE THOSE UP. YOU WI LL RECALL THAT WHEN DR. WATSON WAS ON THE STAND THERE WAS THE QUESTION OF DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 53, WHICH WAS A PAPER THAT HE HAD PREPARED. I ALLUDED TO THE BIBLIOGRAPHY. AND I AM INFORMED THAT THAT WAS NOT OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. I WOULD OFFER IT SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE COURT CON- SIDERING THE FOOTNOTES, WHICH ARE THE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THE STUDY THAT HE DID THAT RELATES--AT LEAST, IN MY OPINION--TO THE SOURCES AND DATA OF HIS RESEARCH AND THUS HIS OPINION. I DO NOT OFFER IT FOR THE PURPOSE OF ANYTHING WITH RESPECT TO THE REPORT ITSELF. MS. WINNER: T HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO THE PAPER BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE. I DO OB.JECT TO THE FOOTNOTES BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE OUT OF CONTEXT FROM WHAT THEY ARE A FOOTNOTE TO. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE HAVE THE TESTI- MONY OF TI.IE GOOD DOCTOR IN THE RECORD. WE LISTENED TO IT. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WE ARE SIMPLY BEING GIVEN THIS AS A PART OF THE RECORD TO AID US IN }4AKING A.JUDG- MENT ABOUT THE WEIGHT THAT WE OUGHT TO ACCORD THE TESTI- MONY HE GAVE. MS. WINNER: I WANT THE WHOLE DOCUMEN F t. O.8or 2tla! LJ i.breh. iaonn c.rdlil ,6rt 7roil c.i. r. r .J156 XXX XXX 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I t0 11 12 l3 l4 15 l6 t7 t8 19 20 2l .r(, 23 24 25o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN THE RECORD, NOT JUST THE FOOTNOTES. MR. LEONARD: I OFFER THE WHOLE DOCU- MENT. THE WHOLE DOCUMENT I5 ADMITTED AS DEI=ENDANTS ' EXHI BIT--- MR. LEONARD: (rrurrnPosrNG) 53. JUDGE PIIILLIPS: 53. (oenrruoarurs EXHIBIT No. 53 wAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, wE HAVE HAD I,IARKED DEFENDANTS I EXHIBIT 26, WHICH T,'AS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH CAROLINA PLAN OF ORGANIZATION. I BELIEVE COUNSEL WILL STIPULATE TO THE ADMISSION OF THAT DOC UMENT. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: NO OB.JECTION? MS. WTNNER: NO OBJECTION. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT O BJ ECT I ON. (OrNrruORrurs ExHIBIT No. 26 WAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MR. LEONARD: AND 27 IS A SIMILAR DOCUMENT RELATING TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH CAROLINA. MS. WINNER: 26, 27 OR 28. I HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO F P. O. Bor 2tt{It IJ i.hlctr, Xodh C..oato 2ratt x 468 Y157 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 12 13 L1 16 16 t7 18 19 n 2l .rq 23 24 25 XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARiZONA MR. LEONARD: I OFFER 28. L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: WITHOUT oBJECTIoN, DEFENDANTSI EXHIBITS 27 AND 28 ARE ADMITTED. (orrrmoarurs EXHIBIT NoS. 27 AND 28 WERE RECI: I VED I N rVt orruCe . ) MR. LEONARD: AND DE FENDANTS I EXH I t] I T 46 SHOWS THE MEMBERS oF THE DEMoCRATIC PARTY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES IN MECKLENBURG, WAKE, DURHAM, NASH AND EDGECOMBE COUNTIES. MS. WINNER: MINUTE TO FIND THEM? COULD YOU GIVE ME .JUST A JUDGE BRITT: THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER. YOU SAY NO OB.JECTION IN MS. WINNER: TTIEN I GUESS I DONIT HA I WOULD THINK SO. ONE. .J UDGE BR I TT : .JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT OBJECTION. (orrrNaNrs EXHIBIT NO. 46 wAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) MR. LEONARD: AND 47 IS A LETTER FROM KAY GADDIS, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT AT THE DEMOCRATIT PARTY HEADQUARTERS HERE IN RALEIGH RELATIVE TO THE NUMBE OF BLACKS WHO SERVED ON THE STATE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. I4S. WINNER: I THINK I HAVE AGREED TO F t. O. lor 2tl6 LI id.len. Norrrr C.roaan 2?Cil I 46S 1M158 :XX 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 N 2l 22 2g 24 25 a X PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH 832.9085 779-3619 876.1571 PHOFIJ!\, ARIZONA NOT OBJECTING TO IT. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT OBJ ECT I ON. MR. LEONARD: (oenrNoarurs EXHrBrr No. 47 wAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) AND DURING THE COURSE OF DR. HOFELLERIS TESTIMONY WE IDENTIFIED EXHIBIT 62, WHICH WAS THE VOTER REGISTRATION ANALYSIS. I WOULD OFFER THAT INTO EVIDENCE. MS. WINNER: NO OBJECTION. . \,UDGE.PHILLIPS: THAT IS ADMITTED WITHoUT OB.J ECT I ON. . (oereNoRurs EXHIBIT No. 62 wAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MR. LEONARD: 6] I'JAS A DoT GRAPH THAT HE TESTIFIED FROM MS. WINNER: I HAVE No oBJECTIoN To 63 0R 54. JUDGE PHILLIPS: BoTH 63 AND 64 ARE ADMITTED WI THOUT OBJECTION.- (oerrruoaruts EXHTBIT Nos. 6, AN 6I+ wERE REcEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MR. LEONARD: DURING THE COURSE OF-.THE RECORD DOESN'T SHOW.THAT DURING THE COURSE OF MR. FERRELLIS TESTIMONY THAT EXHIBIT 50 WAS AN EDITORIAL FRO F P. O, 8ox ,ilGS LJ i.htsNr. lrodt C&otlm 2ttI 1.47 a <M159 iXX 1 ,2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I l0 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 n 2l .ro 2g 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A RALEIGH NEWSPAPER WITH RESPECT TO THAT. THE COURT ADMITTED IT. BUT THE RECORD DOESN'T SHOW THAT. MS. WINNER: YOU HAVE ALREADY RULED ON IT. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO RENEW MY OBLJECTION. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IS THE oBJECTIoN IN THE RECORD? MS. WINNER: YES, SIR. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL SOMEONE REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT WE ADMITTED AND SHOULD NOT HAVE? MS. WINNER: IT I,IAS AN EDITORIAL OF THE NEWS AND OBSERVER CRITICIZING SENATOR SPEED FOR NOT TAKING CARE OF THE LAKE FOREST ANNEXATION. JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE WE WILL RISK LEAVING THAT IN THE RECORD. MR. LEONARD: (DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT No. 5O wAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) AND EXHIBIT 51 WAS .JOE FERRELLIS CURRICULUM VITA,.WHICH APPARENTLY EITHER I NEGLECTED TO OFFER OR IT WASNIT RECEIVED. MS. wrNNER, i HAVE No oBJECTIoN. \,UDGE PH I LL I PS : THAT I S ADMI TTED WI THOUT OBJECTION. (DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT NO. 51 WAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE CoURT PLEASE F 2, O. lor 2alG! LJ tuns,r nodh C.rcllnr 2t!tt :M160 1 2 3 1 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .ra, 23 24 25 WE WOULD LIKE TO OFFER INTO EVIDENCE THE DEPOSITION OF REPRESENTATIVE CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER. WE GAVE YOU A HINT THAT THAT ISSUE MIGHT COME ABOUT. CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER IS A BLACK MEMBER OF THE HOUSE. MS. WINNER: MR. LEONARD: MS. WINNER: MR. LEONARD: WE WERE GOING TO HAVE-.. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: WnRruele ovER THrs. r HAD CARE FULLY. MS. WTNNER: JUDGE PHI LLI PS : WITHOUT OBJECTION. I.,IR. LEONARD : sTAND IT, DOES NOT OBrEa' TO DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM DONALD M5. WINNER: JUDGE PHILLIPS: OB.JECT I ON. WE DO NOT OBJECT. oH, YOU DON ' T. YOU CAN ADMIT IT. I AM SORRY. I THOUGHT I WAS PREPARED FOR A REA STUDIED THE MATTER VERY I APOLOGIZE. WELL, IT IS ADMITTED AND COUNSEL, AS I UNDER- THE ADMISSION OF THE ENTIRE MILLS--THE MILLS DEPOSITION. YES. THAT IS CORRECT. IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT IF THE COURT WOULD .JUST GOT A FEW PAPERS HERE. WE ( I Nrrn PoS I NG ) MR. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA GIVE WANT US TO MR. LEONARD: A MINUTE, WE HAVE MAKE SURE--- JUDGE BRI TT :I PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. F 2, O. lor 2tt6s u i..aeh. |ffit C.roem mlr 1,47 KM161 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 16 16 L7 18 19 20 2l ,.t 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING' AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA LEONARD, I WAS .JUST GOING TO COMMENT THAT I BELIEVE YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED IN MOVING ALL THE PAPER FROM YOUR DES TO THAT OF THE CLERK. \ MP-. LEoNARD: THE DEFENSE RESTS. (ornexsr RESTS AT 2:23 p.M.) MS. \^'INNER: HAVE A FIVE_MINUTE BREAK? MAY I REQUEST THAT T'/E JUDGE PHiLLIPS: WE WILL TAKE A FIVE- MINUTE RECESS. (THE pRocEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 2:25 p.M., To RECONVENE AT 2:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.) l-t P. O. Bor 2lra! f-J id.lgrr Nonh C.rclln. aTGlt 147 3 iM162 :XX 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 I I 10 l1 t2 13 14 15 16 t1 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 2:38 P. MS. WI NNER : BERNARD GROFMAN. THE PLAINTIFFS CALL (wHEREUPoN, BERNARD N. GROFMAN WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, AND HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS nOUIOWS: ) REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAMINATION 2:38 P.M. BY MS. I,JINNER: A DR. GROFMAN, I BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH? A VES. THAT IS cORRECT. a WERE you PRESENT IN rr-rr couRTRooM WHEN DR. HOFELLER TESTIFIED CO;;ERNING EXHIBITS NUMBER 16(E) RNO 16(F)? A YE S; I l,rAS . A DID DR. HOFELLER, IN FACT, POINT OUT AN ERROR IN THOSE EXHIBITS? A YES; HE DID. A DOES THAT ERROR CHANGE ANY OF THE TESTIMONY t WHICH YOU PREVIOUSLY GAVE IN THIS CASE? A NO; IT DOES NOT. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA - P. O. lor 2!tct LJ Rr|t.tD. taonh C.rollm 2rolr 1,47 4 (M161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o., 23 24 25 PREGISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA MS. WINNER: QUE ST I ONS. MS. LEONARD: MS. WINNER: SARAH STEVENSON. MR. LEONARD: MS. WINNER: MR. LEONARD: JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU. (wrrrurss ExcusED. ) I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER I HAVE NO QUESTIONS. THE PLAINTIFFS CALL wHo ? SARAN STEVENSON. IF THE COURT PLEASE, I A GOING TO OBJECT. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT NAME BEFORE COUNSEL UTTERED IT HERE RIGHT AT THIS MOI.,IENT. JUDGE BRITT: PRE-TRIAL ORDER? IS SHE LISTED IN THE MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. NEITHER OF THE TWO REBUTTAL WITNESSEs ARE LISTE; IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER FOR THE REASON THAT WE DIDNIT--FIRST OF ALL, MALACHI GREEN WAS NOT LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER. TJUDGE BRITT: OBJECTED ON THAT GROUND. wELL, YOU COULD HAVE MS. 1^'INNER: THAT IS RIGHT. BUT WE DID NOT OB.'ECT TO T4R. GREEN. BUT BECAUSE WE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT HIM UNTIL AFTER THE PRE.TRIAL CONFERENCE AND BECAUSE OF THE COURTI S ORDER, WE FELT CONSTRAINED NOT TO TALK TO HIM.- WE DID NOT KNOW I,IHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY F l. O. ior lltB u i.btctt. No'dl C.roal{ 2rltt 1,47 5 \416q 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 t1 t2 13 l4 15 r6 L7 t8 19 20 2L o, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA BEFORE HE TESTIFIED. THIS IS REBUTTAL EVIDENCE SPECIFICALLY TO WHAT MALACHI GREEN TESTIFIED WHICH WE DID NOT PREDICT. *JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MEAN FoR THE WHOLE RANGE OF HIS TESTIMONY? MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. AND IT IS ONLY SPECIFICALLY TO IMPEACH HIS CREDIBILITY. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I BELIEVE SIMPLY ON A TIT-FOR-TAT BASIS IN CONNECTION WITH ANOTHER REBUTTAL WITNESS, I RULEDTHAT WE WOULD HEAR THE TESTIMONY FROM THE DEFENDANTSI SIDE TO RESPOND TO BELFIELD'S UNANNOUNCED TESTIMONY. AND WE WI LL THE UNDERSTANDING THAT A VERY LIMITED PART OF THE SAME WITH THIS WITNESS ON TESTIMONY IS TO BE LIMITED TO GREENI S TESTIMONY. ,rr, sIR. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT GREEN WAS NOT LISTED? GREEN IS LISTED IN THE DO HER MR. COUNSELI S PRE-TRIAL MS. WI NNER:. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: REPRESENTATION THAT MR. LEONARD: ORDER. JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS HIS TESTIMONY LISTED? MR. LEONARD: THE PR5-TRIAL ORDER SAID: H.'..TO ESTABL,ISH"'THE FACT' THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE FULL ACCESS TO THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO F P. O. gor 2trd lJ R.bllh, |aonh Ct,o[6. 2?3il 7 tt'7 ( <M165 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 1,1 16 16 17 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 (XX a ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE.'' \ MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, MR. GREEN WAS ADDED TO THE PRE-TRIAL AND THE AMENDED PRE-TRIAL ORDER AFTER THE PRE-TRIAL CONFERENCE. AND THERE IS A NOTE IN. THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER TFIAT WE OBJECT TO THE ADDITION OF HIM TO THE LIST. TJUDGE PHI LLIPS: WELL, LET' S HEAR THIS WITNESS. (wne REU PoN, SARAH BELLE STEVENSON WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: ) REBUTTAI DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. GUINIER: a woulD You .STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE? A MY NAME IS SARAH BELLE STEVENSON. a WHERE DO YOU LM, MS. STEVENSON? A I LIVE AT 2OOO ST. PAUL STREET IN CHARLOTTE. A HOI^J LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE? A APPROXIMATELY 40 YEARS.' a Do You HoLD ANY ELECTED POSITIONS IN CHARLOTT A YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLEN- BURG SCHOOL BOARD. A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY POLITICAL ORGANIZATI PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX ARIZONAF 2. O. lor 2ttei lJ n UCr, Nod C.roliM 2t!tl '14? i M166 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 t3 14 15 16 L7 18 19 n 2t 22 2g 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA IN CHARLOTTE? A CAUCUS. YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE BLACK POLITICAL A WERE YOU PRESENT AT A MEETING OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS ON JULY 23RD, 1983? YES; I WAS. WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT MEETING? THE CAUCUS WAS CONDUCTING A VOTER INFORMATION AND REGISTRATION WORKSHOP. AT THE END OF THE AGENDA, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS, MS. REBECCA TAYLOR, ASKED FOR SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT A RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS BECAUSE SHE HAD HAD SOME QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF THE CAUCUS CONCERNING THE COURT TRIAL ON SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRiCTS HERE IN RALEIGH. AND SHE WANTED TO BRING THAT BEFORE THE GROUP FOR. FURTHER CLARIFICATION AND POSSIBLY SOME ACTION. A WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE CHAIR ASKED FOR SPE- CIAL PERMISSION TO RAISE TI-TIS ISSUE? THAT PERMISSION WAS GRANTED. THE CHAIRMAN PROCEEDED TO PRESENT ROBERT DAVIS, WHOM SHE HAD APPOINTED TO CHAIR A COMMITTEE TO LOOK OVER THE RESOLUTION. MR. DAVIS PRESENTED THE RESOLUTION TO THE BODY. THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSIOI'I AND SOME CORRECTIONS. FINALLY, THE CHAIRMAN CALLED FOR A VOTE. THERE WAS AN AFFIRMATIVE VOTE--VOICE VOTE. I CALLED FOR A - P. O. lor 2tlil LJ i.bcfi. t{onn c.rorm lrail 147t M167 1 2 3 a 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 (X PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX. ARIZONA A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE OF--- q (TNTCRPOSTruE) 'COULD I INTERRUPT YOU JUST FOR A SECOND? A YES. A . YOU SAID THAT MR. DAVIS WAS ASKED TO PRESENT THE RESOLUTION. DID HE READ A RESOLUTION? A HE READ A RESOLUTION IN ITS ENTIRETY. MS. GU IN I ER: MAY I APPROACH THE W I TNESS ? JUDGE PHI LLI PS : YES. BY MR. GUINIER: A I SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFI- CATION PURPOSES AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 88 AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT? (pUINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS ,O**" FOR IDENTIFICATION. ) A YES; I CAN. a WHAT IS THAT? _ A THIS IS THE RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE CHARLOTTE BLACK pOLITICAL CAUCUS ON SATURDAY, JULy 23RD,1ggr. A IS THAT THE RESOLUTION THAT MR. DAVIS READ? A YES; IT I S. a Not^t, You SAID THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS PASSED. HOW WAS THE VOTE TAKEN? A THE VOTE WAS TAKEN BY VOICE FIRST. I ASKED F P. O. lor tGtall Lf i.atsJr. xo.th CryCku 2tftt 'l Lryaa- I I .; Y16B I 2 3 4 b 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 1,1 15 16 L7 t8 19 20 2l .ro OQ 24 25 FOR A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE I STATED THAT I FELT THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT MATTER. THE CHAIR THEN ASKED FOR A SHOT'/ OF HANDS. EVERYONE IN THE ROOM THAT I AM A\^'ARE OF VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION BY RAISING THEIR HAND. A .WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THIS MEETING? A HE WAS.. A WHERE WAS HE SEATED IN COMPARISON TO WHERE YOU WERE SEATED? A DIRECTLY ACROSS THE ROOM FROM ME. A DID YOU SEE HIM WHILE THE VOTING WAS TAKING PLACE? A YES; I DID. A DID YOU SEE HIM VOTE? A YES; I DID. a Hol,J DrD HE VOTE? , A HE VOTED ''YES'I BY BNISINE HIS HAND. A AT THAT MEETING, DID MALACHI GREEN TAKE ANY POSITION IN OPPOSITION TO SJNGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS? A NO; HE DID NOT. MS. GUINIER: (pausr. ) MAYIHAVEAMINUTE? I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS. JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD? REBUTTAL CROSS EXAM II.IAT I ON 2:45 P.M. PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.15t1 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 601 2116l lJ R.l.lcn, Noil c.roalm 2?!rr i.4s0{169 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I r0 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L o., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAA t. O. aor 2lla lJ thbteh. Nom C..oiln. ,otl BY MR. LEONARD: a MS. STEVENSON, DO yOU KNOW REBECCA TAYLOR? A YES; I DO. a IS SHE IN THE COURTROOM TODAY? A .YES; S,HE IS. MR. LEoNARD: IF THE CoURT PLEASE, I WANT TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT--WOULD MS. TAYLOR STAND UP, PLEASE? I AM GOING TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT THIS LADY NOT TO LEAVE THIS COURTROOM. THIS IS A SURPRISE TO ME. AND I MAY WANT TO CALL HER AS A WITNESS. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I DONIT BELIEVE WE WILL HAVE TO INSTRUCT HER. IF WE SEE HER LEAVE, WE WILL TAKE ACTION. BY MR. LEONARD: a MS. STEVENSON, DO YOU KNOW WHO DRAFTED THE RESQLUTION THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE CAUCUS THAT MORNING? A NO; I DO ft,OT. A DID YoU SEE THE oRIGINAL DRAFT? A YES; I DID. A WAS IT HANDWRITTEN? A YES; IT WAS. a You DIDNr T RECOGNIZE THE HAr'{DWRITING? A NO; I DID NOT. A DO YOU KNOW A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF FE RGUSON ? x.4 81(M170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 l5 16 t7 18 19 20 2t o., 23 21 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A YES; I DO. A IS HE A LAWYER IN CHARLOTTE? A YES; HE IS. A DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS A LAW PARTNER ASSOCIATED I I,I THE PRACT I CE OF LAW W I TH MS . W I NNER ? A YES. a Do you KNow WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS MR. FERGUSON WHO BROUGHT THAT RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS? A I DO NOT. MR. FERGUSON WAS NOT AT THE MEETIN A YOU DIDNI T SEE. HIM AT ALL THAT MORNING? A NO; I DID NOT. a How Do You KNow THAT HE DRAFTED THE RESOLU- TION? A I DO NOT KNOW. I DID NOT SAY HE DID. MR. LEONARD: WELL, I F THE COURT PLEAS I AM GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY AS BEING TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE AND TO THIS TRIAL. MS. WINNER IS THE ONE WHO RAISED ON CROSS-EXAMINATION WITH MALACHI GREEN THE ISSUE OF THE \,ULY 23RD, 1983, MEETING. I OB.JECTED AT THE TiME THAT WHAT HAPPENED TEN DAYS PRIOR TO THIS TRIAL WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IS HARDLY RELEVANT. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE }.,ILL OVERRULE THE OB.JECTION. AND WE I.JILL CONSIDER CAREFULLY THE RELEVANCE OF THE TESTIMONY. F l. O. lor 2at6 LJ Rd.lt,r, xodh c.rclil ttlrr 4s2frI .M171 1 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 1t t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l (r, 23 24 25 XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PI{OENIX, ARIZONA BY MR. LEONARD: a Do you KNow wHo BRoUGHT THE HANDWRITTEN RESOLUTION TO THE MEETING THAT DAY? A NO; I DO NOT. . MR. LEONARD: QUESTIONS. I HAVE NO FURTHER .,UDGE PHI LL I PS : DO YOU HAVE ANYTH I NG ? MS. GUINIER: NO REDIRECT. EX,\MINATION 2:49 P.M. BY .JUDGE . PHI LL I PS : a LEr me ASK you, MA'AM: wAS THE RESoLUTIoN PRESENTED T'IITH ANY DISCUSSION OF THE FACT THAT A COURT CASE INVOLVING THIS MATTER WAS COMING UP? A YES. IT WAS MENTIONED. . a wHo MENTIONED IT? A I BELIEVE "'U CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS. A IN WHAT CONI.IECTTON DID THE CHAIRMAN MENTION THE COURT CASE THAT WAS COMING UP? A THE CHAIRMAN ANNOUNCED THAT SHE HAD HAD SOME CALLS FROM MEMBERS OF THE CAUCUS ASKING HER IF THE CAUCU HAD PLANNED TO TAKE A STAND ON THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT ISSUE. A I N THAT CONN ECT I ON, THEN, I T I.JAS MENT I ONED THAT THE COURT CASE WAS COT4I NG UP? a P. O.8or 2al6 lJ R.btch. Noarr C.roth ?'!tr 749,3 Mt7 2 I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 9 10 1l L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 ,X A I AM NOT SURE. I DONTT REMEMBER SPECTFICALLb YOUR HONOR. .JUDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. EXAMINATION 2:49 P.M. BY JUDGE DUPREE: A WERE YOU AWARE THAT THE COURT CASE WAS PENDING HERE ? A YES, S IR a AND THAT IT WAS COMING ON FOR TRrAL? A YES, SIR. A WAS THIS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED MEETING OF THE CAUCUS OR WAS IT A SPECIAL CALLED MEETING? A IT WAS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED I./ORKSHOP OF THE CAUCtJS. a IT WOULD nOra MET REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THIS CASE WAS ON THE DOCKET FOR TRIAL OR ANYTHING? A YES, SIR. IT HAD BEEN PLANNED. MR. LEONARD: MAY I ASK ONE OTHER QUESTION? REBUTTAL RECROSS EXAMINATION 2:50 P. M. BY MR. LEONARD: A THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING, HOWEVER, WAS PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RATEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2tl(t lJ nd.hrr Noffi C.rClm 27Grr 7,4E1Mr7 3 a I o 3 4 6 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t ,, 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 976.4571 Pt'loENtx, ARtzoNA SPECIFICALLY TO DISCUSS VOTER REGISTRATION; WAS IT NOT? A THAT IS CORRECT. A YOU DIDNIT HAVE AT THAT MEETING AN AGENDA WIT A RANGE OF ISSUES TO DEBATE; DID YOU? A . NO, SIR. BUT I STATED THAT THE CHAIRMAN ASKED FOR SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT THIS ISSUE. A AND THIS WAS AT THE END OF THE MEETING? A YES. I4R. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUEST I ONS . L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU. MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I AM GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY, INCLUDING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MALACHI GREEN ON THIS TSSUE. I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT AS A RESULT OF THIS LAWSUIT THIS ORGANIZATION WAS ASKED TO GET INTO ISSUE NOW .JUST 11 DAYS AGO. JUDGE PHILLIPS: . MR. LEONARD, WE WILL OVER RULE THE OBJECTION. AND I,'E UNDERSTAND BASICALLY YOUR OB.JECTION. (wrrruess EXcusED. ) MS. VJINNER: YOUR HONOR, WE DO NOT OFFER THIS TESTIMONY FOR ANY OF ITS SUBSTANTIVE VALUE, BUT SIMPLY TO IMPEACH MR. GREEN. JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER A 2. O. lor 2alttl lJ i-h,r, Xc.rh C.EID tTart L4c9i <M174 (xx 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L ,rq 23 21 25 W I TNESSES ? MS. GUINIER: YES. WE CALL REBECCA S. TAYLOR. (wneR r uPoN, REBECCA S. TAYLOR WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY S\^IORN, AND TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS: ) REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAI.4INATION 2:51 P. M. BY MS. GUINIER.: A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE? A REBECCA STURGIS TAYLOR. I a WHERE DO YOU LIVE, MS. TAYLOR? A I LIVE AT 2645 LASALLE STREET IN CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA. A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE? A I HAVE LIVED IN CHARLOTTE 52 YEARS TODAY. A ARE YOU THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? A YES; I AM. A HOI,J LONG HAVE YOU BEEN THE CHAIRMAN? A TWO YEARS. A HAS THE CAUCUS DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF SINGLE- MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE LEGISLATURE DURING THE PERIOD THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CHAIR? PRECISION REPOBTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36t9 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAF ,. O. lor 2alct lJ R.ara,r raor0r crornr 2ratr (M175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 l4 15 16 17 18 19 n 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA !4ar,,A YES. A APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY TIMES? A OH, APPROXIMATELY FOUR TIMES--FOUR OR FIVE TIMES. A DID THAT ISSUE COME UP ON JULY 23RD AT A MEETING OF THE CAUCUS? A YES. A ARE YOU THE OFFICIAL RECORDKEEPER FOR THE CAUCUS ? A YES. I KEEP THE STGN-IN RECORD. a THE SIGN-IN RECORD? A UH-HUH. A THIS IS A RECORD OF WHAT? A OF PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THE MEETINGS. A DO YOU ALSO KEEP A RECORD OF VOTES THAT ARE TAKEN AT }4EETINGS? A ONLY WHEN .IT IS OTHER THAN A VOICE VOTE. a Do you KEEP THESE RECORDS AS PART OF YOUR OFFICIAL DUTIES AS THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE BLACK POLITICA CAUCUS ? A YES. A WAS A VOTE TAKEN ON THE \'ULY 2'RD MEETING? A YES. A AT THE JULY 23RD MEETING? EXCUSE ME. A YE 5. THERE I^JAS A VOTE. F ,. O. &r 2.tll Lt i-aen. f€?tr C.rolln t !il 1 l. r's-{:f G / M176 I 2 3 1 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 r3 14 15 16 L7 18 19 N 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 976.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA a WHAT WAS THE SUB.'ECT OF THAT VOTE? A WE HAD 27 PEOPLE TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE RESOLUT ION. a WHAT WAS THs RESCLUTION ABOUT? WHAT trAS THE SUBJECT MATTER? A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTING. MS. GUINIER: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS? JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY. BY MS. GUINIER,: A DID YOU BRING A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN SHEET FOR THE MEETING OF .JULY 23RD? A YES. MR. LEONARD: MAY I SEE IT? BY MS. GUINIER: A DID I JUST HAND YOU A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN SHEET WHICH YOU BROUGHT WITH YOU FROM CHARLOTTE? A YES. A HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE LISTED ON THE SIGN-IN SH AS HAVING BEEN PRESENT AT THE MEETING ON JULY 2'RD? A 3t. A NEXT TO THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PRESEI.,IT, D I D YOU WR I TE ANYTH I NG ? A YES; I DID. a WHAT DrD YOU WRrrE? F t. O. tor 2tlall l, i-aoh, Nort c.,cril 2?al !/*ttB Mt7 7 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 1,1 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 a XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A I WROTE-_AFTER THE SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS CALLED FOR, I VJROTE I^JHETHER THE PERSON ACTUALLY VOTED. I WROTE I'YES.II A IF THE PERSON VOTED? A . YES. IF THE PERSON RAISED THEIR HAND, I WROT IIYESII BY THE I R NAI'1E. a How MANY pEOpLE VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTTON FOR S INGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS? A 27. A HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST THE RESOLUTION FOR S INGLE-I4EMBER DI STRICTS? A NONE; ZERO. A WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THAT MEETING? A YES; HE WAS. A IS HIS NAME ON YOUR SIGN-IN SHEET? . A YES; IT IS... A HOW DID MALACHI GREEN VOTE? A MALACHI GREEN VOTED IIYESII IN FAVOR OF THE RESOLUTI ON. I.4S. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUEST IONS. REBUTTAL CROSS-EXAMINATION 2:55 P.M. BY 14R . LEOI.IARD: A IS THAT YOUR USUAL M=THOD OF TAKING ROLL CALL F P. O. Bd 2ti(l lJ R.blfh, xodn C.roaiil 27Crl 7189 MiTB I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 N 2L oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA AT THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG O RGAN IZAT I ON ? A I DONI T UNDERSTAND IIROLL CALL.II A DO YOU USUALLY TAKE ROLL CALL BY TAKING THE S IGN-IN SHEET AND TJRITING 'rYESrr OR rrNOrr BEHIND PEOPLE I S NAME S ? A ONLY WHEN THERE IS A REQUEST .FOR A SHOW OF HANDS. A DO YOU SEE THE RESOLUTION THAT IS THERE IN FRONT OF YOU? WHAT FORM WAS EXHIBIT 88 FIRST IN WHEN YOU FIRST SAI,' IT? I A IT WAS HANDWRITTEN. A WAS IT GIVEN TO YOU IN HANDWRITTEN FORM? A YES; IT WAS. a wHo GAVE IT TO YOU? A ATTORNEY M:LVIN WATT. a WHAT LAW FIRM IS HE ASSOCIATED 'i',ITH IN C HAR LOTT E ? A THE CHAMBERS FIRM. a '/.IAS MR. FERGUSON WITH MR.--l^lAS HE WITH l4R. VIATT ? A NO. I DID NOT SEE MR. FERGUSON ON THIS DAY. a DID YOU QUESTION MR. V(ATT AS T0 WHY HE WAS BRINGING THIS RESOLUTION TO YOU AT THAT LATE DATE WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER - t, O. lor i,atalt u R.raafi, raod c.roflm 2rarr 1,49t KM179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l o.t 23 24 25o PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA DISTRICTS? A NO; I DID NOT. A DID YOU AND HE HAVE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT A PENDING LAWSUIT? A NO; WE DID NOT. A DID YOU KNOW THIS LAWSUIT WAS PENDING? A YES; I DID. A AND YOU KNEW THAT MALACHI GREEN WAS GOING TO BE A WITNESS IN THIS LAWSUIT; DID YOU NOT? A YES; I DID A AND YOU KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE A WITNESS FOR THE, STATE; DIDN'T YOU? A YES; I DID. a I./ASNTT THE PURPOSE OF YOUR OFFI:RING THAT RESOLUTION THAT DAY TO EMBARRASS MALACI-II GREEN? . A NO. THE PURPOSE OF OFFERING THIS RESOLUTION WAS TO MAKE THE ISSUE PLAIN TO THE CAUCUS MEMBERSHIP-- UNDERSTANDABLE. a you HAD No iNTENTION TO TRy TO INTIMIDATE MR. GREEN INTO TESTIFYING HERE; DID YOU? A OH, NO; I DID NOT. A DID YOU KNOW THE TRIAL WAS STARTING THE NEXT MONDAY ? A YES; I DID. A AND THIS WAS SATURDAY MORNING? F P. O. Lr 2'16 lJ fddelr Nodi c.ro{E 2,3il .14 91MlBO I 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 I 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.36.t9 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA A YES. a DID yOU TALK TO MR. WATT TO DRAFT A RESOLU_ TION LIKE THE ONE YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU? A I CONTACTED MS. PHYLLIS LYNCH, WHO IS A MEMBE oF THE CAUCUS. AND ALONG WITH MS. LYNCH, BOB DAVIS AND MARY GILL WERE ASKED TO WORK ON A RESOLUTION FOR US. AN THEY, IN TURN, TALKED WITH MR. WATT. }4R.' 'LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTIIER QUESTIONS. EXAMINATION 2 :58 P. M. BY .JUDGE DUPREE: A Do YoU HAVE YoUR MINUTE BooK THERE WITH YoU? A NO; I DO NOT. a THAT HAS GOT THE SIGNATURES OF--- A (tNreRposING) on, r nave THE sIGN-IN. a THAT IS wHA; I AM TALKING ABoUT. A OH, YES. A HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER INSTANCES IN WHICH A SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS RECORDED IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU HAVE RECORDED IT ON THIS INSTANCE? A NoT SINcE I HAVE BEEN cHAIR. THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES, BUT NOT SINCE MY CHAIRMANSHIP. A THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME IN WHICH IN YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT IIYtrSII AND IINOII VOTES HAD BEEN RECORDED I F P. O. ,or ttct LJ taaaah. radi c..o{o. ,z!tt 1/*9i,1181 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 l1 t2 13 l4 15 16 17 18 19 n 2l 22 23 24 25 )o XX PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THIS FASHION? A YES--BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY CHAIRMANSHIP THAT I HAVE BEEN ASKED FOR A SHOW OF HANDS AFTER THE VOICE VOTE. A THIS SIGN-IN SHEET, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, WAS ONE PASSED ALONG TO YOU? A NO. THAT IS ONE TI-IAT I STARTED WHEN I BECAME CHAIRMAN. A OH, YOU STARTED IT? A YES, SIR. a ALL RIGHT. yOU DON| T RECALL ANy OTHER ''yES" OR IINOI' VOTE THAT WAS RECORDED IN THE MANNER THAT YOU RECORDED THIS ONE? A NO. .JUDGE DUPREE: ALL R I GHT. E X A M I N A T I O N 3:OO P.M. BY JUDGE PHILLIPS: a How LoNG HAVE YOU BEEN THE--- A (trurrnposINc) sINCE 1981--JUNE 1981. A AND THIS IS THE FIRST MATTER THAT HAS COME BEFORE T''E BODY DURING THAT TIME THAT LED TO TIIE TAKING OF A VOICi: VOTE ON ANYTHING? A A SHOI,/ OF HANDS. a A sHow 0F HANDS? t-t t O. &r 2atGit lJ i.bach. Xordr C.Dlm trltr 1493 .M182 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I 9 10 11 t2 r3 1,1 15 16 t7 18 19 n 2L 22 29 24 25 XX o PRECISION REPORTING ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PI'OENIX. ARIZONA A UH-HUH. JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU. MR. LEONARD: I HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTI REBUTTAL P.ECROSS-EXAMI NAT ION 3:00 P.M. BY MR. LEONARD: A MS. STEVENSON INDICATED THAT THERE FIRST I{AS A VOICE VOTE, IS THAT CORRECT? A YES. A WAS THERE ANY DOUBT II,I YOUR MIND AS TO WHETHE NOT THE RESOI-UTION WAS ADOPTED ON A VOICE VOTE? A NO; NOT REALLY. MR. LEoNARD: THAT IS ALL. JUDGE PHI LLI PS: DID YOU HEAR ANY IIIICI' VOTES WHEN THE VOICE VOTE WAS TAKEN? . THE WITNESS: *O. JUDGE PTIT I-I-T PS: SO YOU COULD HAVE WRITTE 'IYFSII AT THAT TIME? - THE WITNESS: PARDON ME? JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU COULD HAVE WRITTEN I'YFS'' BY EVERY NAME AT THAT TIME; OR DID YOU THINK MAYBE SOI4E PEOPLE D IDNI T VOTE? THE WITNESS: WHO DID NOT VOTE. t,tELL, trE HAD 0NE PERSON .JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. OR F P. O. lor 2.16 Ll tubtgrr, ,aodn caro{r ,?ort XX 41Bl 1 2 3 4 5 6 I 8 I 10 11 t2 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2l 22 23 24 25 1494 JUDGE DUPREE: BUT THAT WAS NOT MR. GREEN ? THE I^JI TNESS : No; IT WAS NOT. JUDGE PH ILLIPS: VEP.Y WELL. THAI{K YoU VERY MUCH. I'1S. WINNER: MAY WE ASK ONE OTHER QUESTION? REBUTTAL REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3:01 P.M. BY MS. GUIN I ER:. A AT WHOSE REQUEST WAS THIS RESOLUTION DRAFTED? A AT MY REQUEST. MS. GUIN IER: MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE COURT PLEASE, ( T rurrRpOS I NG ) I,IRy THE I WOULD--- MS. GUINIER.: WITNESS BE EXCUSED? MR. LEONARD: -. YES. YES. I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. (wrrlress EXcusED. ) i AM GOING TO I4OVE AGAIN TO STRIKE ALL OF THIS TESTIMONY. I THINK--I JUST FEEL THAT THE FACTS--THAT THE ONLY CONCLUSION THAT ONE CAN DRAW FROM THIS ENTIRE EpISODE OF.JULy 23RD, lgBt--TWO DAYS BEFORE THIS TRIAL STARTED--IS TO INTIMIDATE THIS WITNESS. AND I DON'T I HAVE NO OTHER QUESTION PRECISTON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O, &r 116:l Ll ndd.tr ilodh CrCtt 2ntr 'l l,-ca,+ tvrt (M1Bt+ :XX 1 2 3 4 6 6 7 I 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 r9 20 2l 22 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.457'l PHOENIX, ARIZONA THINK THE COURT OUGHT TO ALLOW THIS TO EVEI'I REMAIN IN THE RECORD. JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF YOUR OBJECTION. YOUR OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. YOU CAN ARGUE THAT TO THE HILT IN AN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE ARE GOING TO ANNOUNCE VERY SHORTLY. MS. WINNER: THE ONLY OTHER EVIDENCE- PLAINTIFFS OFFER PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NUI,tBER 88 INTO EVIDENCE, WHICH IS THE RESOLUTION. JUDGE PHILLIPS.: WELL, IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT OBJECTION. (pIaINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS RECEIVED IN evTorruce.) MS. VJINNER: WE ALSO HAVE PLAIIITIFFSI EXHIBIT 89, WHICH IS A CHART OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATIO OF COUNTIES WHICH I BELIEVE THE CLERK HAS. IT IS FROM THE 19BO CENSUS. .JUDGE PHILLIPS:^ IT IS ADMITTED I^,ITHOUT OBJ ECT I ON . (pIeINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 89 WAS RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. ) MS. WINNER: THERE ARE TI.IO STIPULA- TIONS WHICH I THINK I OUGT1T TO READ INTO THE RECORD. AN THEN WE HAVE HANDWRITTEN COPIES THAT WE HAVE SIGNED THAT YOU CAN PUT IN THE RECORD. THEY ARE T.IOT VERY ARTFUL. a P. O. lot 2!163 u i.brfi. Nodr c.roilo erarr 1,49e M1B5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I l0 11 12 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .ro 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORT!NG AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH. 832.9085 779-3619 876.1571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA THERE ARE TWO SIGNED WHICH I THINK WILL RECORD. AND THEN I I^/I LL COPIES. .JUDGE PHILLIPS: MS. WINNER: STIPULATIONS WHICH WE HAVE BE HELPFUL TO READ INTO THE GIVE THE COURT THE HANDWRITTEN ALL RIGHT. ONE I S THAT: '".. IT IS STIPULATED THAT THE MECKLENRURG COUNTY NAMES OF CANDIDATES WERE ROTATED ON THE BALLOT IN NEITHER THE PRIMARY NOR THE GENERAL ELECTION. NAMES OF CANDIDATES APPEAR ON BOTH PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION BALLOTS IN ALPHA- BETICAL ORDER.II THE SECOND HAS BEEN TITLED IISTIPULATION TO CORRECT ERROR IN GINGLES EXHIBIT 6(A). AND IT READS: II...THE T4AP OF THE ILLUSTRATIVE SINGLE_MEMBER DURHAM DISTRICT SHOUL; INCLUDE PRECINCT 54 AND THE PART OF PRECINCT 18 WHICH IS AN ISLAND BETWEEN PRECINCT-S 34 AND 39, AND ALSO INCLUDES ONLY THAT PART OF PRECINCT 39 WHICH LIES GENERALLY NORTH OF THE EXHIBIT STICKER NUMBER 1. THE LINE CUTTING PRECINCT 39 SHOULD HAVE BEEN DRAWN ON THE EXHIBIT ON A ROAD OR ROADS LYING BETWEEN THE RESIDENCES OF REPRESENTA- TIVE MILLER, EXHIBIT STICKER I, AND REPRESEN. TATIVE SPAULDING, EXHI BIT STICKER 3.,, F t. O. Eq tllas Ll i.bch. Nqri c.roril 2?ilt '.1 I rt >'t)L*J : .t'4186 I 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l .t9 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 ,79-3619 876.1s7'l PHOENIX, ARIZONA AND I CAN SHOW THE COURT WHAT ALL THAT MEANS.\ J UDGE PH I LL I PS : I.,OULD I T APPEAR oN A DOCUMENT ,THAT WE CAN LOOK AT LATER? MS. WINNER: WE CAN HAVE MADE A NEW SMALL OVER.LAY FOR THE COURT I S COPI ES, I F THAT WOULD }4AKE IT CLEAR. L,UDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T WE DO THAT ? MS. WINNER: IT IS A SIMPLY JUST A LINE THAT IS IN THE WRONG PLACE. iJUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL YOU PREPARE IT AND SUBMIT IT TO COUNSEL FOR THE STATE AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY OBJECT ION? MS. WiNNER: I WILL DO THAT. PLAINTIFFS WOULD ALSO OFFER THE DEPOSITIONS OF SENATOR RAUCH AND REPRESENTATIVE LiLLEY. JUDGE PHILLIPS: iHCV ARE ADMITTED wITH.UT OBJECTION. MS. WINNER: AND PLAINTIFFS WOULD LIK SOME INSTRUCTION ABOUT THE CUSTODY OF THE LARGE EXHIBIT MAPS. MR. LEONARD: MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT TH JUDGE t]RI IT SHOULD KEEP THOSE IN HIS CHAMBERS. JUDGE BRITT: THE RULES OF THIS COURT PROVIDE THAT ONCE AN EXHIBIT IS OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE IT BECOMES THE CUSTODY--IT BECOMES THE PROPERTY AND IN THE F P. O. Bor ltt(i lJ i.hlolr lodrr C.roilm ttail 14 98 i'l187 o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 l1 L2 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 2L oo 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CUSTODY OF THE CLERK. THAT iS I,'HAT WILL HAPPEN TO THESE. MS. WINNER: JUDGE BRITT: THAT IS FINE. IF THE CLERK WANTS TO AS PERMISSION. TO PUT THEM IN MY CHAMBERS, THAT IS ALL RIGHT. MS. WINNER: FURTHER EVI DENCE. PLAINTIFFS HAVE NO (pIaINTIFFS REST AT 3:05 P.M. ) .JUDGE PHI LLI PS : WELL, SINCE T^'E WI LL BE COMING BACK TOGETHER, WE WILL NOT BID FAREWELL TO COUNSE I WOULD LIKE, HOWEVER, TO SAY THAT ON BEHALF OF MY COLLEAGUES AND ME WE APPRECIATE THE WAY IN WHICH THE CAS HAS BEEN PUT ON. AND IT IS A MATTER OF INTEREST TO CONTEMPLATE THAT THE NEXT CASE IN THE LINE OF WHITE RICH AND BUXTON LODGE AND SUMNER IS LIKELY TO TUNN ON HOW WITNESS MALACHI GREEN VOTED IN A CALL MEETING OF THE BLACK CAUCUS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY. BUT ST.RANGER THINGS IN HISTORY HAVE HAPPENED. WE PROPOSE TO PROCEED FROM THIS POINT AS FOLLOWS: WE HAVE AN ESTIMATE FROM OUR REPORTER AS TO THE LIKELY TIME SHE WILL BE ABLE TO PRODUCE A TRANSCRIPT BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY FIRM PROMISE ON IT. BUT BASED UPON HER BEST ESTIMATE TO US, WE PROPOSE WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS TO ENTER A LITTLE F P. o. lor t'Statil u RddCn. Xodh Crroah A76tt 7 Laa KMlBB I (, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2r oq 23 24 25 PRECISlON REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085 779-3619 976.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA FORI.4AL ORDER WHICH WILL REQUIRE COUNSEL TO SUBMIT PROPOSED FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND LEGAL MEMORANDA IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PROPOSED FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS ON A DATE SIMULTANEOUSLY WITHIN A TIME CERTAIN AFTER THE COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE TRANSCRIPT. WE ARE THINKING NOW ABOUT 30 DAYS AFTER THE COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE TRANSCRIPT. IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING FROM THE REPORTER THA SHE IS AT WORK AND WILL BE ABLE--BUT I WILL LEAVE THIS TO HER TO ASSURE COUNSEL.ON--TO PRODUCE THE TRANSCRIPT IN SEGI4ENTS. SO IT WILL BE POSSIBLY COMING IN. BUT IN ANY EVENT, THE TIME FOR SUBI,IISSION WILL RUN FROM ]O DAYS AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE TRANSCRIPT AND SUBMISSION TO COUNSEL. WE PROPOSE THEN TO HAVE A HEARING BACK HERE ,' IN RALEIGH, PRESUMABLY, WITHIN 1O TO 15 DAYS AFTER THE SUBMISSION OF THE PNOPOSTO FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS AND BRIEFS OR MEMORANDA. THE ORDER WILL PROVIDE, IF WE DON'T FORGET TO INCLUDE IT--AND I WILL ADVISE COUNSEL NOW, IN CASE YOU ARE GOING TO START WORK IMMEDIATELY--THAT IN VIEW OF THE VOLUMINOUS RECORD WITH WHICH WE WILL BE DEAL ING THAT WE WOULD LIKE THE PROPOSED FINDINGS TO BE KEYED TO PORTIONS OF THE RECORD BY APPROPRIATE REFERENCE. AND I WILL SAY TO YOU THAT WE ARE SHOOTING F A DATE FOR APPEARING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN OCTOBER THE lOTH F P. O, Aor 2ttct lJ A.r.acn. Norrn C.Eiln. a?!il L5C0 :t-1189 o I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 10 11 L2 13 14 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l oo 23 24 25 a a PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA AND THE 17TH OR 1BTH OR THEREABOUTS. THAT IS OUR HOPE.\ JUDGE BRITT: I WOULD .JUST COMMENT THA WE REALiZE THAT YOU I^'OULD WANT TO SUBMIT YOUR PROPOSED FINDINGS AND BRIEFS AND EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME. TI=TEREFORET.AN OUTER LIMIT WILL BE ESTABLISHED. WE HOpE YOU WILL REALIZE ALSO HOI.I IMPORTANT TIME IS TO US AND THAT YOU WILL MAINTAIN COMMUNICATIONS WITH EACH OTHER; AND THAT IF YOU CAN SUBMIT IT EARLIER, THAT YOU DO SO, REALIZING THAT YOU BOTH WANT TO SUBMIT THEM AT THE SAME TIME. JUDGE PHILLIPS: ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS FROM COUNSEL BEFORE WE ADJOURN? (NO RESPoNSE. ) (TnT PROCEEDING WAS ADJOURNED AT 3:IO P.M.) a P. O. Bor 2tlltil tJ e.bhh, itonn c.rclm arclt L5t) ?:Mi90 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 10 11 t2 13 l4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2l c)., 23 24 25 PRECISION REPORTING AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085 779.3619 876.4571 PHOENIX, ARIZONA CERTIFICATE I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE PRECEDING 189 PAGES REPRESENT A TRUE AND ACCURATE TttANSCRI PT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA, ON WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983. THIS, THE 22ND DAY OF AUGUST, 1981. /, [/o B. BUSH, cvR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA - P. O.8or 2tt6:t lJ i.ftEh. Nordi C.rorh 2r!!r