Trial Transcript Volume 8
Public Court Documents
August 3, 1983
Cite this item
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Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 8, 1983. 2f00126f-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/ebb87866-ef95-4257-8659-8a7964d37236/trial-transcript-volume-8. Accessed July 13, 2025.
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH
COURT
CAROL I NA
RALEIGH DIVISION
RALPH GINIGLES, ET AL., )
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Bt-203-c r v-5
RUFUS EDMISTEN, ETC.,
ET AL.,
ALAN V. FUGH , Er Al-. ,
81-1066-CrV-5
.JAMES B.
ET AL.,
JOHN .J.
ALEX K.
ET AL.,
HUNT, JR. , ETC.,
CAVANACH, ET AL.
82-545-CrV-5
BROCK, ETC. ,
DEFENDANTS.
TR. I AL BE FORE
THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON
THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T.
THE HONORABLE W. EARL
PHILLIPS
DUPREE, JR.
BRITT
PREClSION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 8or 2lld!
lJ R.btoh, nonh c.rorril z70ll
AT RALE I GH : WF:t)\lE SDAY, AUGU ST 3 , 1g B j
VOLUME 8
PAGES 1312 THROUGH I5O1
I313
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. Bq rrGC
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
APPEARANCES
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
LESLIE .J. WINNER, ESqUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
95 1 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROL I NA 2.8202
ARTHUR .'. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLSHOUSER 6 KENERLY
309 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144
ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQrrIitE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402
LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUITE 2O3A
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019
. ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
JERRI S LEONARD,'ESQUIRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREET, N.W.
IJASHINGTON, D. C. 20O06
JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROL I NA DEPAR'TI.4EI{T OF .JUST I CE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 8r6.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZOI.IA
TABLE OF CONTENTS
VOIRWITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS EXAM DIRE
ALLEN ADAMS
By MR. LEONARD L37t-t342 1364_1366
I 343-1 I 44
BY MS. WINNER 1144-1164 1342_t34
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS 136b-1368
THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER
BY MR. LEONARD 1369-1+19 1461
14b 5
BY MS. WINNER 1419-1461
BY JUDGE PHiLLIPS 14b1-1465
REBUTTAL WITNESSES
EESNABq [!. GROFMAN (NECALLED)
BY MS. WINNER I473-I474
SARAH BELLE STEVENSON
BY MS. GUINIER 1I+76 -LU,,
BY MR. LEONARD .: t47g-r482 1483_1r+Er+
BY tJ UDGE PH I LL I PS
BY .JUDGE DUPREE
REBECCA S. TAYLOR
1481-1t+81
14ul
BY MS. GUINIER 1+85-1488 1494
BY MR. LEONARD 1488-1491
BY.JUDGE DUPREE
BY JUDGE PHILI.IPS
1+91-1t+92
t492- 1494
A P, O.8or 1trltl
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TABLE OF CONTENTS (COruT I NUED)
EXHIBITS
NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE IVED
PLAINTIFFS
88
89
DE FENDANTS
26
27
28
36
t+6
47
50
. 51
53
55
62
63
6t+
RESOLUTION 1478
VOTING AGE POPULATION CHART
1t+95
1495
DEMOCRATIC PLAN OF
DOCUMENT
DOCUMENT
HOFELLER RESUME
ORGANIZATION 1+67
146 8
146 B
1377
1468
146 9
1t+70
1470
14b7
133t
14b 9
146 9
146 9
r37 2
DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES
LETTER
ED I TOR IAL
FERRELL RE.SUME
DOCUMENT
ADVERTI SEMENT
ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRATION
DATA
SCATTERGRAM--WAKE COUNTY
SHERI FF ELECTION
SCATTE RGRAM- -W I NSTON -SALE M
CITY COUNCIL ELECTION
1326
1417
L4t /
PRECISION REPORT!NG
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. aor 2t16
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PRECISICN REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FURTHER PROCEEDINGS
THIS CAUS:E CAME ON FOR FURTHER
TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.
DICKSON PHILLIPS, UNITED STATES
C I RC U I T .JUDGE; THE HONORABLE FRANKL I N
T. DUPREE, JR., UNITED STATES CHIEF
DI STRI CT .JUDGE; AND THE HONORABI-E
W. EARL BRITT, UNITED STATES DISTRICT
LJUDGE, AT RALE I GH, NORTH CAROL I NA, ON
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983, AT 9:00 A.M.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY PROCEED.
(wHrRrueoru,
ALLEN ADAMS
THE WITNESS ON THE STAI{D AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTIFIE; FURTHER AS FOLLOVIS:)
" * u t',F=lrilulr' * o I' o *
BY MR. LEONARD:
A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, YOU HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY
SWORN. TELL THE COURT.BRIEFLY WHAT IS THE GENESIS OF
CHAPTER I, WHICH IS THE PLAN FOR REDISTRICTING FOR THE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GENERAL ASSEI'IBLY OF NORTH
CAROLINA THAT IS IN CONTENTION IN THIS COURT.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHCENIX. ARIZONA
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO
WAS THETHE REPETITIVENESS. REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY
CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE AND TESTIFIED TO THAT. REPRE-
SENTATIVE ADAMS, AS I UNDERSTAND-.OR AT LEAST HIS
TESTIMOTJY HAS NOT SHOWN HE WAS EVEN ON THE COMMITTEE.
WE HAVE STIPULATED TO THE GENESIS OF IT. THE
CHRONOLOGY IS ALL SET OUT.
MR. LEONARD: WE HAVE HAD NO TESTIMONY
AS TO ANY OF THE DETAI LS AS TO HOW THE PLAN EVOLVED, I F
THE COURT PLEASE. IF THIS WITNESS KNOWS, I AM ASKING HIM
IF HE CAN TESTIFY TO THAT.
JUDGE PHi LLI PS :- OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, THE CONSTITUTION
REQUIRED THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO REAPPORTION AFTER EACH
FEDERAL DECENNIAL CENSUS. THE SPEAKER APPOINTED
CO},II'1ITTEES. THE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE WAS
CHARGED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO COME UP WITH SOME
PLANS. AND IT SEEMS LIKE WE MET ABOUT EVERY MONTH ON THE
NEW PLAN
THE ACTUAL PLAN THAT EVOLVED--I TAKE IT THAT
IS THE ONE THAT IS THE LAW NOW--IN THE LAST SESSION CAME
ABOUT BECAUSE THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD SAID THAT THEY
WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH ONE SORT OF FUNNY DISTRICT IN
CUMBERLAND COUNTY.
MS. I.J I NNER : I OBJECT TO WHAT THE
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAID AND MOVE TO STRIKE THAT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.
THE I,JITNESS: I MIGHT ADD WHEN THE
!,USTICE DEPARTMENT I{AS--:WE WERE IN CONTACT WITH THEM
THROUGHOTJT THI S PROCESS.
BY I'IR. LEONARD :
LET ME INTERRUPT TO ASK YOU SOME QU::STIONS
WITH RESPECT TO THAT. DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN MEETINGS
AND NEGOTIATIONS I^/ITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?
YES. AFTER WE PASSED ONE OF THE PLANS--I THI
IT WAS THE ONE IN FEBRUARY; IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONE
IN OCTOBER--THE SPEAKER ASKED REPRESENTATIVE DAN BLUE
AND MYSELF TO GO TO WASHINGTON AND MEET WITH THE REPRE-
SENTATIVES OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO EXPLAIN TO THEM
THE THEORY BEHIND THE PLAN.
. AND ACTUALLY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND MYSELF
HAD BEEN THE ONES TO WNITT THAT PLAN AT THE MIDNIGHT HOUR
AFTER THE COMMITTEE HAD COI.TE UP WITH ONE THAT WE FELT WAS
ENTIRELY UNSATISFACTORY. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE ASKED
ME TO HELP HIM GET HIS PLAN ENACTED. AND WE DID. AND
THEN AFTER IT WAS ENACTED, THE SPEAKER ASKED US TO GO TO
WASHINGTON AND TALK TO THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. AND WE
DID. WE HAD A DAY-LONG CONFERENCE WITH THEM.
a oN How MANY OCCASIONS DID YOU GO T0 WASHINGTON
TO DISCUSS THE QUESTION WITH THE.JUSTiCE DEPARTYENT?
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PRECISION REPORTING
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THER E
WENT
A I WENT ONE TIME. I DIDN'T GO THE SECOND TIM
WAS A SECOND TRIP WI{ERE A NUMBER OF LEGISLATORS
TO h'ASHINGTON.
DURING THE COURSE OF THE MEETING THAT YOU WERE
PRESENT AT, WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE T,\KE
WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS?
A HE SAID IN THE LARGER COUNTIES THAT SINGLE-
MEMBER DISTRICTS DILUTED THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOTERS.
MS. WINNER: OBJECTION AND I4OVE TO
STRIKE
JUDGE PHI LLI PS:
BY MR. LEONARD:
OVERRULED.
A NOW, THERE CAME A TIME WHEN THE COMMITTEE AND
THOSE OF YOU WHO NEGOTIATED WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
REACHED AN AGREEMENT I^IITH RESPECT TO THE COVERED COUNTIES
I S .THAT ACCURAT E ?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THEN DID YOU SET ABOUT ATTEMPTING TO
FINALIZE THE REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO THE NON-COV
COUNTIES?
A
a
RESPECT TO
ALSO.
YES.
DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS WITH
THAT QUESTION?
YES. AND I ATTENDED THE COMMITTEE MEETINGS
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PRECISlON REPORT]NG
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE PARTICIPATE IN THOSE
DISCUSSIONS?
PANTS.
AUTHOR
YES. HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE PARTICI-
HE WAS ON THE COMMITTEE AND ACTUALLY WAS THE
OF MOST OF THE PLANS THAT WERE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERE
WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE TAKE WIT
RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN
MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH, DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES?
MS . I.I I NNER : YOUR HoNOR, I OBJECT.
REPRESENTATIVE BLUE LIVES IN WAKE COUNTY. HE IS CLEARLY
SUBJECT TO SUBPOENA. IF THE DEFENDANTS WOULD LIKE TO
PROVE WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THINKS, THEN THE APPRO-
PRIATE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO CALL REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND
ASK HI M, NOT TO ASK SOMEBODY ELSE T'/HAT REPRESENTATIVE
BLUE THINKS, THUS DEPRIVING US OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO
CROSS-EXAM INE REPRESENTATIVE BLUT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IF MR. ADAMS CAN
TESTIFY AS TO HIS DIRECT FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE WHAT POSI-
TION I4R. BLUE TOOK ON THI S MATTER, IT SEEMS TO ME IT IS
ADMISSIBLE.
MS. WINNER: AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT
TESTIMONY I S FOR THE TRUTH OF I{HAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE
THOUGHT. THAT IS, THEY ARE OFFERING I^'HAT REPRESENTATIVE
BLUE SAID AS EVIDENCE OF WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGH
THAT IS, FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER AND FOR NO OTHER
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PRECISION REPORTING
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779.3619 876.4571
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REASON, I^JHICH HAS TO BE HEARSAY.
MR. LEONARD: JF THE CoURT PLEASE,
COUNSELIS POSITION ON THAT IS OBVIOUSLY ERRONEOUS. THIS
IS A LEGISLATIVE BODY. LEGISLATORS ACT FROM WHAT THEY
PERCEIVE.. AND IN THIS CASE, THE PERCEPTION OF THIS
LEGISLATOR, WHO WAS A LEADER IN THE GENERAL ASSEI4BLY,
WHO IS WHITE IN A WHITE DOMINATED BODY, I,JHERE THE
COMPLAINT IN THI S ACTION CIIARGES DISCRI14INATION BY THIS
BODY--THIS LEGISLATORIS PERCEPTION OF WHAT BLACK PEOPLEIS
POSITIONS WERE IS ABSOLUTELY MATERIAL. IT IS PROBABLY
THE MOST MATERIAL PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS LAWSUIT.
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVING MR.
REPRESENTATIVE BLUEIS ATTITUDE
WELL, WE WILL ADMIT IT
ADAI'ISI PERCEPTION OF
ON THE MATTER IN ISSUE.
AND NOT FOR THE TRUTH
OF
MS. WINNER:
WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGHT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: FOR THE LII,lITED PURPOSE
STATED.
BY MR. LEONARD:
DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION?
YES. I CAN GIVE YOU FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS
OF THE LEGISLATURE HIS ATTITUDE. WHEN REPRESENTATIVE
SPAULDING ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE MADE THE MOTION TO
CARVE OUT BLACK DISTRICTS IN FORSYTH, WAKE AND MECKLEN-
BURG COUNTIES AND AS YOU HAVE HEARD, LEFT OUT DURHAM
a
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PRECISION REPORTING
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779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COUNTY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE STOOD ON THE FLOOR OF THE
HOUSE AND MOVED--MADE A VERY NICE STATEMENT WHY THAT WAS
A BAD IDEA--AND MOVED THAT THAT MOTION DO LIE UPON THE
TABLE . AND I T WAS OVE RWHE LM I NGI.Y;
.AND I MIGHT ADD THAT THE OTHER BLACK IN THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY, MR. CREESY, VOTED WITH MR. BLUE.
NOW, WHEN A MEMBER MOVES TO LAY A PROPOSAL ON
THE TABLE, WHAT HAPPEI'IS TO IT IF THAT MOTION PREVAILS?
A WELL, ir KILLS IT. BUT IT ALSO IS SORT OF--
IT MEANS THAT IT IS NOTWOP.THY OF CONSIDERATION AND FURTI.E
DEBATE. IF YOU ARE TJUST AGAINST AN'AMENDMENT, YOU
JUST SPEAK AGAINST IT AND LET IT TAKE ITS COURSE. WHEN
YOU MOVE THAT IT LAY UPON THE TABLE, THAT MEANS THAT IN
YOUR OPINION IT IS SORT OF FRIVOLOUS,AND I5 NOT WORTHY OF
FURTHER DEBATE, BECAUSE A MOTION TO LAY UPON THE TABLE
CUTS OFF DEBATE. ALSO, WHEN IT PASSES, THEN IT TAKES
TWO-THIRDS TO RECONSTOTN IT.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN DAN BLUE?
A WELL, HE WAS AN ASSOCIATE IN OUR LAW
1972, I THINK--MAYBE 173. SO IT HAS BEEN OVER
A IS DAN BLUE AN AMERICAN WHO IS ALSO
MALE ?
FIRM IN
TEN YEARS.
BLACK AND
A YES.
A WHEN
RE PRESENTAT I VES
HE IS
DID HE
I N WAKE
FROM ROBESON
FIRST RUN FOR
COUN TY ?
COUNTY.
THE HOUSE OF
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779.36',t9 876.4571
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A WHEN REPRESENTATIVE BOB FARMER I^/AS APPOINTED
TO THE SUPERIOR COURT BENCH, THERE WAS A VACANCY. AND
IT WAS TO BE FILLED BY THE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
WILMA--NOW SENATOR WILMA WOODARD_-HAD LINED UP MOST OF
THE VOTES.. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AT THAT TIME RAN--WE
DISCUSSED THIS, SO I GUESS IT IS ALL RIGHT--IN ORDER TO
GET HIS NAME ASSOCIATED WITH THE OFFICE.
i AND SENATOR WOODARD GOT THE VOTE OF THE
EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. HE RAN THE NEXT TIME, WHICH WOULD
HAVE BEEN IN 1978
A BY ''HE, '' DO YOU MEAN REPRESENTAT I VE BLUE ?
A REPRESENTATIVE BLUE.
A WAS THAT HIS FIRST RACE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE?
A RIGHT. AND HE RAN WITHIN 1OO VOTES OF THE
SIX WINNERS IN THE PRII.4ARY. I THINK HE RAN SIXTH-.I MEAN
SEVENTH. AND REPRESENTATIVE MUSSTUWTTTTT RAN EIGHTH.
NOW, IN THAT ELECTION I THINK THERE WERE FIVE INCUMBENTS;
OR THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SIX. BUT IT WAS NOT AN OPEN
FIELD.
HE RAN AGAIN IN 1982. NO. EXCUSE ME. IN 178
HE RAN SEVENTH FOR SIX SEATS. AND IN '80 HE RAN AND WON
THE SIXTH SEAT AND WAS RE_ELECTED IN 1982.
A WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHER
CANDIDATES IN THE PRIMARY IN THE 1982 ELECTION?
A HE RAN FIRST.
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779.3619 976.4571
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A AND WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE
CANDIDATES IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU RECALL?
A HE WAS EITHER SECOND OR. THIRD. I THINK HE WAS
SECOND. I THINK RUTH COOK WAS FIRST. AND HE WAS SECOND.
BUT I AM NOT SURE.
a HAVE yOU HAD OCCASIONS TO WORK CLOSELY WITH
REPRESENTATIVE BLUE SINCE THE TWO OF YOU HAVE SERVED IN
THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?
A YES. HE SITS RIGHT BESIDE ME.
A HAVE YOU WORKED WITH HIM ON LEGISLATION?
A ALL THE TIME--ALMOST EVERY DAY.
A WHAT OPPORTUNITIES HAVE YOU HAD TO OBSERVE
REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN THERE WERE ISSUES WHICH HAD SOME
RACIAL ASPECTS TO THEM?
A WELL, THERE ARE NOT MANY OF THOSE THAT COME UP
BUT. WHEN THEY DO, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS ALWAYS IN THE
FOREFRONT REPRESENTING THE--AND THE REST OF THE DELEGA.
TION EXPECTED THAT. HE WAs THE SPOKESMAN ON THOSE TYPE
OF I SSUES.
a SPoKESMAN FOR WHOM?
A SPOKESMAN FOR OPPOSITION ON THAT ISSUE.
A DID YOU AT ANY TIME OBSERVE THAT REPRESENTA-
TIVE BLUE wAS INTIMIDATED WHEN IT CAME TO ISSUES THAT HAD
ANY RACIAL SIGNI FICANCE?
A ABSOLUTELY NOT--JUST THE OPPOSITE.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND THANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DID YOU HEAR REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE'S
TESTIMONY IN THIS COURTROOM A FEW DAYS AGO?
YES; I DI D.
a WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT TESTTMONY WITH
RESPECT TO.THE QUESTION OF INTIMIDATION OF BLACK LEGIS-
LATORS IN THE LEGISLATURE ON ISSUES THAT HAVE RACIALLY
IDENT I FIABLE CONNOTAT IONS?
MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO REPRESENTA_
TIVE ADAMS TESTIFYING AS TO THE STATE OF }4IND OF OTHER
LEGISLATORS OTHER THAN PERHAPS REPRESENTATIVE BLUE.
JUDGE PHi LLIPS:
THE WITNESS:
OVERRULED.
IT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE-
THAT LEGISLATORS FROM, AS REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE CALLED
IT, MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS WERE INTIMIDATED IN ANY WAY
IN REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS OF BLACK PEOPLE AS THEY
PERCE I VED I T. THEY WERE .JUST AS OUTSPOKEN AS MEMBERS
FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS--IN SOME CASES, MORESO.
BY MR. LEONARD: -
a I ASK yOU TO LOOK AT DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 55
AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT?
(ornrnoRNTS EXHIBIT NO. 55 WAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A YES. THAT WAS AN AD THAT WAS CIRCULATED
THROUGHOUT WAKE COUNTY BY THE WAKE COUNTY REPUBLICAN
PARTY IN 19__EITHER '76 OR 178. I THINK IT WAS IN'78.o
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A IS THIS THE ORIGINAL OF THAT?
A THAT IS IT.
MR. LEONARD: IF COUNSEL HAS NO
OBJECTION, THIS IS A FRAMED COPY THAT CAME FROI4 THE
WITNESSI LIBRARY. AND I WONDER IF COUNSEL WOULD AGREE
TO ACCEPT A PHOTOCOPY OF IT?
MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO OBTJECTION TO
THE PHOTOCOPY RATHER THAN THE ORIGINAL. I DO OBJECT TO
THE EXHIBIT. IF YOU ARE OFFERING IT, I WILL STATE THE
REASON. ARE YOU OFFERING THE EXHIBIT?
MR. LEONARD: I DONIT THINK I HAVE
QUALIFIED IT YET. I WILL TRY TO.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a DID yOU COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE ORTGINAL
OF THAT DURING A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN?
. A YES. I GOT IT IN MY NEWSPAPER.
)GE BRITT: I NOTICE THAT IS NOTJUT
LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, COUNSEL.
MR. LEONARD: IT IS NOT, YOUR HONOR,
BECAUSE IT CAME TO OUR ATTENTION ONLY WHEN I.IE INTERVIEWE
REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS AFTER PLAINTIFFS BEGAN PUTTING IN
THESE POLITICAL ADVERTISING WITH PICTURES ON THEM. WE
HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO ANTICIPATE THAT SPECIFICALLY. I
I,IOULD OFFER EXHIBIT 55.
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, DEFENDANTS
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ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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HAVE HAD ACCESS TO REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS FROM THE ENTIRE
PENDENCY OF THTS LAWSUIT. THE FACT THAT THEY DID NOT
TALK TO HIM TO FIND OUT WHAT EXHIBITS HE MIGHT HAVE UNTIL
THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY SEEMS TO TOTALLY SUBVERT THE
PURPOSE OF THE PRE_TRIAL ORDER.
NOT ONLY HAVE I BEEN HANDED THIS EXHIBIT
YESTERDAY, OI.ILY BECAUSE I NOTICED SINCE THE LAST EXHIBIT
I^'AS 56 THAT THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A 55 ALSO THAT I HADNIT
RECEIVED, BUT THIS MORNING I HAVE BEEN HANDED A WHOLE
STACK OF OTHER EXHIBITS FROM REPRESENTATIVE ADA}4S WHICH
i HAD NO NOTICE OF BEFORE THIS MORNING.
NOW, NONE OF THESE EXHIBITS ARE OF RECENT
ORIGIN. THIS IS FROM 1976. THE OTHERS HAVE DATES
BETWEEN tg7 G Ar.rD 1g 8 2 . NorlE oF THEM wERE puBL i snEo LAST
WEEK. IF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER HAS ANY MEANING, IT SHOULD
MEAN THAT YOU MUST TA:K TO YOUR WITNESSES IN ADVANCE AND
FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR EXHIBITS ARE AND GIVE THE OTHER
SIDE A COPY. THAT IS THE FIRST OBJECTION.
ON SUBSTANTIVE GROUNDS, I FAIL TO SEE THE
RELEVANCE OF AN AD T.JHICH SHOWS..AND UNLESS THERE IS SOME
TESTIMONY THAT SAYS WIJY THI S AD I S EVEN I4ARGINALLY
RELATED TO THIS CASE, I CANIT IMAGINE THAT IT IS RELE-
VANT. IT IS ALSO HEARSAY.. IF IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF
ESTABL I SH I NG I^/HAT THE REPUBL I CAN PARTY THI NKS, THEN THAT
I S HEARSAY.
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MR. LEONARD: MAY I BE HEARD? THE
PLAINTIFF HAS INTRODUCED INTO THIS CASE THE TENUOUS
PROPOSITION THAT THE USE OF PICTURES IN CAMPAIGN ADS IN
NORTH CAROLINA IS A PHENOMENON THAT WHITES USE WHEN THEY
ARE RUNNING AGAINST BLACKS IN ORDER TO INTRODUCE RACIAL
OVERTONES INTO THE CAMPAIGN.
NOW, I HAVE A STACK OF I DON' T KNOW HOW MANY
EXHIBITS HERE THAT THIS WITNESS, WHO HAS BEEN A LONGTIME
PARTICIPANT IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AT LEAST IN WAKE
COUNTY, HAS COLLECTED. THIS ALL CAME UP DURING THE DIR
TESTIMONY BY THE PLAINTIFF.
I DONI T INTEND TO OFFER THE REST OF THESE ADS.
I OFFER THEM ONLY TO PROVE THAT IN POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS
IN THIS STATE, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL--INDEED, IT IS USUAL--
FOR THE OPPOSITION TO PUBLISH PICTURES OF ITS OPPONENTS--
THAT THAT SHOULD NOT BE PERCEIVED TO BE A RACIAL PRACTICE
THAT IT IS COMMON PRACTICE.
NOW, IF COUNSEL-WANTS TO STIPULATE TO THAT,
I^IE CAN END THIS, WHICH IS A PERIPHERAL--I ADMIT A
PERIPHERAL ARGUMENT. BUT IT HAS BEEN INJECTED INTO THE
CASE IN ORDER TO BRING EMOTION AND PREJUDICE INTO THIS
RECORD. THAT IS I.JHY SHE PUT IT IN HERE.
.JUDGE BRI TT: ADDRE S S
RAISED, COUNSEL. YOU HAVENIT TALKED AT
PRE-TRIAL ORDER AND YOUR LACK OF MEETING
THE ISSUE SHE
ALL ABOUT THE
THE REQUIREMENTS
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
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OF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, I,IHICH IS THE GROUNDS oF HER
OBLJECTION.
MR. LEONARD: WELL, WITH RESPECT To
THAT, IF THE COURT PLEASE, WE SIMPLY DID NOT ANTICIPATE
THAT THIS KIND OF EVIDENCE WAS AVAILABLE UNTIL COUNSEL
FORGED INTO THIS IN THE CASE IN CHIEF.
JUDGE BRITT:
PRE-TRIAL EXHIBITS THAT WERE
MR. LEONARD:
WITNESS DID NOT REALIZE THAT
UNTIL HE HEARD IT AND SAW IT
IT IS MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING.
PRE.JUDICIAL ISSUE.
DID YOU NOT REVIEW HER
MARKED AND GIVEN TO YOU?
YES; WE DID. BUT THIS
HE HAD THAT KIND OF EVIDENCE
IN THE COURTROOM. I THINK
BUT IT IS OBVIOUSLY A
WE PLEADED WITH THE COURT NOT TO LET THOSE
EXHIBITS IN TO BEGIN WITH ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE
HEARSAY AND THAT THEY DONTT PROV; ANYTHING. THE COURT
LET THEM IN. NOW, WHAT I AM SAYING, IF YOU ARE GOING TO
LET THAT KII.ID OF STUFF IN THE RECORD WHICH HAS PREJUDICI
TENDENCIES, THEN LET US REBUT IT.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : DO I UNDERSTAND THAT
COUNSEL HAS INDICATED AN INTENTION ONLY TO OFFER ONE OF
THESE?
MR. LEONARD: YES, YOUR HONOR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THEN T'IE WILL ADMIT THE
ONE THAT IIAS NOT'/ BEEN TENDERED.
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
(oenrNoaNrs EXHIBIT No. 55 WA
RECEIVED IN rvIorNcr. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
q NOW, REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DID I ASK YOU IF
WHEN YOU AND I DISCUSSED THIS MATTER WHETHER OR NOT YOU
HAD-_OR DID YOU VOLUNTEER TO ME THAT YOU HAD A FILE OF
CAMPAIGN ADS GOING BACK FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME?
YES, MR. LEONARD. WHEN I HEARD A WITNESS--I
BELIEVE HIS NAME WAS LUEBKE--TESTIFY THAT THE USE OF YOUR
OPPONENTIS PICTURE IN THE PRESS WAS UNUSUAL IN NORTH
CAROLINA, I SAID I HAD SOME THINGS OR EXAMPLES OF WHERE
YOUR OPPONENTS DO USE IT. AND THAT IS WHEN I BROUGHT YOU
THESE. AND I BELIEVE WE DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT IT IS A
COMMONPLACE PRACTICE TO RUN COI'4PARISON ADS IN NORTH
CAROLINA POLITICS WHERE YOU HAVE THE PICTURE OF YOU AND
YOUR OPPONEI,IT. AND T.HEN YOU HAVE A CHECKLIST.
AND OF COURSE, YOU PICK OUT THE GOoD POINTS.
YOU ASK THE RIGhIT QUESTIONS. AND YOU CHECK YOUR
QUALIFICATIONS. AND YOUR OPPONENTIS YOU HAVE BLANK.
AND ITHAT IS A COMMON PRACTICE. IT COMES UP IN ALMOST
EVERY ELECTION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
AND IN REVIEWING YOUR FILES, DID YOU FIND A
NUMBER OF EXAMPLES OF THAT PRACTICE?
A NO. THI S WAS THE ONLY EXAMPLE I HAD OF THAT
PRACT I CE. THE OTHER MATTERS I N THE F I LES 'TIERE EXAMPLES
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OF RUNNING COALITIONS INCLUDING BLACKS AND WHITES.
A BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE CANDIDATES?
A YES.
A HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRACTICE OF RUNNING PICTURES
OF THE OPP.OSITION USED IN OTHER CAMPAIGNS?
A YES. IT HAPPENS IN ALMOST EVERY CAMPAIGN. IT
IS A COMMONPLACE PRACTICE IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS TO
RUN THESE COMPARISON ADS WITH THE PICTURES OF YOUR
OPPONENT IN THEM.
a Do you HAVE AN OPTNION AS TO WHETHER REPRE-
SENTATIVES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FROM MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN REPRESENTATIVES FROM
S IT.,IGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS?
A WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE A DELEGATION THAT IS
COHESIVE--THAT CAMPAIGNS TOGETHER AND GETS ELECTED
TOGETHER--YOU SPEAK AS ONE VOICE. O*' IF YOU HAVE.-IN
THE LARGER COUNTIES SUCH AS FORSYTH AND MECKLENBURG AND
WAKE, IF YOU CAN COME UP WTTH SIX VOTES OR SEVEN VOTES
OR FIVE VOTES OR EIGHT VOTES, IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE
BECAUSE YOU HAVE--THAT IS A SIZABLE BLOCK OF VOTES THAT
YOU CAN DELiVER.
A WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS IN
WAKE COUNTY?
A WELL, IT VARIES. THE REGISTERED VOTERS RUNS
AROUND 14 TO 15 TO 16 PERCEI.IT. I THINK IT HAS BEEN AS
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HIGH AS 18. THEN IT DROPS DOWN TO 12. AND THEN THERE
IS ANOTHER REGISTRATION DRIVE. AND IT GOES BACK UP TO
16 OR SO. IT HOVERS AROUND 16 PERCENT, I THTNK.
a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
THE WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION IS RESPONSIVE TO THE BLACK
CITIZENS OF WAKE COUNTY?
MS. WINNER: OB.JECTION.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : OVERRULED.
THE WI TNESS: WELL, I.,E CERTAINLY HOPE
THAT WE ARE.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A CAN YOU GIVE EXAMPLES OF THE WAKE COUNTY
DELEGATION SUPPORTING LEGISLATION THAT WAS OF SPECIFIC
INTEREST TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY?
A YES. WHEN THE BLACKS ASKED US TO ABOLISH
THE.SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS NON THE SCHOOL BOARD'-AS YOU
HEARD MR. MALONE TESTIFY--ON THE GROUNDS THAT THAT
DILUTED THE VOTING INFLUENC€ OF BLACK CITIZENS, VJE
INTRODUCED A BILL OVER THE OBJECTION OF A NUMBER OF OTHER
ELEMENTS IN THE COUNTY TO SET UP THE MECHANISM TO GO TO
AT-LARGE ELECTIONS FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD.
THAT WAS SPECI FICALLY AT THE RECIUEST OF THE
BLACK ORGANIZATIONS--THE FOUR BLACK ORGANIZATIONS: THE
RALEIGH-WAKE CITIZENS ASSOCIATION, THE BLACK I',OMENIS
POLITICAL CAUCUS, THE V'AKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC BLACK CAUCUS
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AND THE FOURTH ONE, IVHI CH MET TOGETHER. MR. WI NLEY
WAS PRESIDING. MR. MALONE WAS THERE. SUBSTANTIALLY
EVERY BLACK LEADER IN I.IAKE COUNTY WAS THERE. AND THE
PURPOSE OF THE MEETING IVAS TO ASK US TO DO AI^'AY WITH
S INGLE_MEMBER DI STRI CTS IN 1^IAKE COUNTY FOR THE SCHOOL
BOARD BECAUSE IT LESSENED THE INFLUENCE OF THE BLACK
VOTERS. AND WE INTRODUCED THAT LEGISLATION AND HAVE IT
PENDING.
A I S THERE A BLACK CAUCUS IN THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES?
YE 5.
DO THEY AT TIMES GENERATE PROPOSALS TO THE
LEGISLATURE OUT OF THAT CAUCUS?
YES.
A CAN YOU RECALL ANY SUCH ISSUES IN THE LAST
TI'JO. SESSIONS?
A YES. THEIR MAIN PROGRAM WAS THE VOTER
REGISTRATION BATTLES THAT CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN REFERRED TO
THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED. AND I INTRODUCED ONE OF
THOSE. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND I AND BALLANCE WORKE
ON THOSE II.I THE HOUSE ELECTION LAWS COMI4ITTEE. AND WE
GOT ALL THREE OF THEM PASSED.
WILMA WOODARD, OUR SENATOR, I,JAS INTRODUCING
THEM IN THE SENATE AND HANDLED THE BILLS II.I THE SENATE.
THERE WERE THREE SPECIFIC PROPOSALS. ONE WAS VOTER
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 83?.9085
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REGISTRATION IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES. THE SECOND WAS TO
HAVE A VOTER REGISTRAR AT EACH HIGH SCHOOL. AND THE
THIRD WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES LICENSE
EXAMINERS GIVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO PEOPLE WHEN T}1EY
RENEW THEIR DRIVERIS LICENSE TO REGISTER TO VOTE OR
CHANGE THEIR REGISTRATION. AND ALL THREE OF THOSE PASSE
A WAS THERE ANY LEGISLATION IN THE HEALTH FIELD
THAT CAME OUT OF THE CAUCUS?
A WELL, I DONIT KNOW THAT IT WAS AN OFFICIAL
ACTION OF THE CAUCUS. BUT REPRESENTATIVE LOCKES FROM
ROBESON COUNTY INTRODUCED A BI LL ON TI-{E S I CKLE CELL
ANEMIA FUNDS-_TO HAVE FUNDS FOR SICKLE CELL--WHICH I
UNDERSTAND IS PECULIARLY APPLICABLE TO BLACKS. I THiNK
ONLY BLACKS GET SICKLE CELL ANEMIA.
AND THEY WERE INTERTT,STED IN THAT_-THE CAUCUS
wAS. AND THAT WAS PLACED IN rnr auoerr. IN FACT, l^lE
TOOK THE FUNDS OUT OF THE GOVERNORIS BLOCK GRANT FUNDS
AND FUNDED $2Sr,000 FoR SICKLE cELL ANEMIA.
A DID ALL OF THIS LEGISLATION WHICH YOU REFERRE
TO BECOME LAW IN NORTH CAROLINA?
YES. IT IS LAW NOW.
DID THE I./AKE COUNTY DELEGATION SUPPORT THAT
LEGISLATION?
A YES. THEY
THEY ALL SUPPORTED IT.
SUPPoRTED THE--YEAH, TO A MA!'J.
I DONrT--\./ELL, I SAY rrMANil AS---
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
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( T rurrR PoS I NG ) ItRrur I ND ?
MANKIND. I DONIT RECALL ANY MEMBER OF THE
WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION VOTING AGAINST ANY OF THOSE VOTER
REGISTRATION BILLS. AND THE SICKLE CELL ANEMIA FUNDS
WERE IN THE MAIN APPROPRIATIONS BILL. AND NO WAKE COUNTY
REPRESENTATIVE VOTED AGAINST THAT. WE DONTT TEND TO
VOTE AGAINST A PROPOSAL OF ONE OF OUR MEMBERS. IT IS
VERY RARE WHEN I/,E DO THAT.
WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIA-
T IONS COMMITTEE?
A I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE BASE BUDGET. AND BILLY
WATKINS FROM GRANVILLE COUNTY IS CHAIRMAN OF THE EXPAN-
SION BUDGET. THE BLOCK GRANT CAME UNDER THE BASE BUDGET
SECTION.
A TELL THE COUR.T WHAT YOUR EXPERI ENCE I S WITH
RESPECT TO CAMPAIGNS IN VJAKE COUNTY ANO THE QUESTION OF
BLACKS AND WHITES CAMPAIGNING TOGETHER IN THE VARIOUS
RACIAL NEIGHBORHOODS THAT EXIST.
A WELL, THE PRIMARY IS ONE 'THING'.. THE GENERAL
ELECTION IS ANOTHER. OF COURSE, IN THE PRIMARY WE ALT''AY
HAVE 20 PEOPLE RUNNING FOR SIX SEATS. AND EVERY TIME
THERE IS A VACANCY, THERE IS GOING TO BE A T,IHOLE L.OT OF
PEOPLE RUNNING, EVEN IF THERE IS JUST ONE VACANCY.
AND OF COURSE, WE ARE ALL UP FOR ELECTION.
.Jusr BECAUSE you ARE AN INcUMBENT DoESt'lrT MEAN THAT You
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AND TRANSCRIBING. ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
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ARE GOING TO GET RE-ELECTED. SO WE ALL HAVE TO CAMPAIG
A NUMBER OF TIMES WE GO IN PAIRS. AND SOME-
TIMES THREE OF US WILL BE INCUI4BENTS. I KNOW RUTH COOK
AND DAN BLUE WENT OUT IN THE COUNTY A LOT TOGETHER OR
MUSSELWHITE AND BLUE. I o,,*I, DO AS MUCH AS I USED TO
IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN BECAUSE I DIDNIT HAVE TIME.
BUT THEY GO AROUND IN PAIRS SOME, BUT NOT SIX
INCUMBENTS BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE OFFENSIVE IN THE PRIMARY
THAT WOULD OFFEND DEMOCRATIC VOTERS. IN THE GENERAL
ELECTION, WE CAMPAIGN PURELY AS A TEAM. IT IS A TEAM
THING. WE GO TO ALL SECTIONS OF THE COUNTY_-THE SIX OF
US TOGETHER. WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN BUS THAT GOES THROUGH
THE COUNTY, STOPPING AT ALL PLACES IN THE COUNTY.
WE ALWAYS END THE TOUR AT A BLACK CHURCH. AI'ID
WE SING. AND THAT IS ALV/AYS A HIGHLIGHT OF THE CAMPAICN
TOUR FOR ME. BUT WE CAMPAIGN IN ALL COMMUNITIES WITH
ALL RACES AND NOT SPECIFICALLY AS BLACKS OR WHITES.
A WOULD YOU FOR THE RECORD PLEASE IDENTIFY THE
RACE OF SOME OF THOSE LEGISLATORS THAT YOU MENTI,ONED?
..A WELL, MUSSELWHITE--THE DELEGATION IS MUSSEL-
WHITE, FUSSELL, COOK, ADAMS AND STAMEY, WHO ARE WHITE;
AND BLUE, WHO IS BLACK. AND THEN THE SENATE DELEGATION
IS .JOE .JOHNSON, BILL STATON FROM LEE COUNTY AND WILMA
WOODWARD. THEY ARE ALL WHITE.
A HAVE YOU PUBLICLY SUPPORTED AND WORKED FOR
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
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BLACK CANDIDATES IN WAKE COUNTY?
A YES. I PUBLICLY SUPPORTED JOHN WINTERS !.,i:.I=ltl
HE RAN IN 1961.
JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
TESTIFIED TO THIS EARLIER.
BY MR. LEONARD:
AS I RECALL, HE HAS
YOU MENTIONED BEFORE THAT REPRESENTATIVE
LOCKES I.JAS INTERESTED IN A SICKLE CELL ANEMIA BILL. WHA
IS HIS RACE? AND I,'HERE IS HE FROM?
HE IS A BLACK FROM ROBESON COUNTY.
A DID THE LEGISLATURE TAKE ANY ACTION ON A
PROPOSAL WITH RESPECT TO REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING?
A YES. THIS FIRST BILL WE PASSED THIS LAST
SESSION WAS MAKING MARTIN LUTHER KINGIS BIRTHDAY AN
OFFICIAL STATE HOLIDAY.
WHO AUTHORED THAT LEGISLATION?
I THINK REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WAS THE
PRINCIPAL SPONSOR.
A NOI.J, THERE HAS BEEN TEST IMONY WI TH RESPECT TO
A PROPOSAL BY YOU AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING OR BY
REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WITH RESPECT TO AMENDING THE
RUNOFF PRIMARY LAW--THE MAJORITY VOTE PRIMARY LAW-_IN
NORTH CAROLINA. WOULD YOU JUST TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY
WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS WITH RESPECT TO THAT LEGISLA-
TION?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457],
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O. Bor 2aldl
lJ R.t.roh, Nodh c.rolh. 276tt
A WELL, WE WERE INTERESTED IN CHANGING THE
SECOND PRIMARY REQUIREMENT AND GETTING SOME SORT OF A
SYSTEM WHEREBY IF SOMEBODY WAS WAY AHEAD OR GOT A CERTAIN
PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE A
SECOND PRIMARY.
REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING DREI}l THE LEGISLATION
AND HAD, I THINK, STARTED OFF WITH A 4O PERCENT REqUIRE-
MENT AND BROUGHT IT TO ME. AND I UNDEP.STOOD HE VIAS GOING
TO GET A NUMBER OF PEOPLE TO SIGN IT. BUT ONCE HE GOT--
AFTER I SIGNED IT--AND I AGREED TO BE A CO_SPONSOR, NOT
.JUST A SIGNER OF THE BI LL. BUT WE WERE THE CO-PRINCIPAL
INTRODUCERS. IT I,JAS A SPAULDING-ADA}4S BiLL AS OPPOSED
TO SPAULDING WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE.
THEN HE INTRODUCED IT. AND THEN WE MADE
SOI.4E--I STARTED WORKING ON THE SPEAKER TO SEE WHAT SUPPOR
WE.COULD GET FROM HIM AND:IN UIruINE UP SUPPORT IN THE '
COMMITTEE.
WE MADE SOI4E GOOD PROGRESS. AND IT WAS UNDER_
STOOD WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO AMEND IT SOME BSCAUSE OF
THE PECULIAR POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MIGHT COME UP
IN THE NEXT DEMOCRATIC PRIMAP.Y FOR GOVERNOR--THAT WE
WERE.GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE IT MORE RESTRICTIVE.
AND SO THEREFORS, \,/E UIERE TALKING ABOUT 45
PERCENT I,JI TH A 1O SPREAD. AND THE SPEAKER LARGELY SAI D
THAT HE WOULD SUPPORT TII,AT. AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ACTION THAT WOULD BE DESIGNED TO GET
THE BILL PASSED. IT WAS AS IF--YOU KNOW, HE DIDNIT TAKE
THE NORMAL ACTIONS THAT YOU TAKE IN THE LEGISLATURE TO
GIVE AND TAKE AND COME UP I'IITH SOMETHING TI15Y COULT)
SUPPORT. AND HE WAS JUST ADAMANT AT THE ORIGINAL PROPO-
SAL. AND I T WENT DO}JN.
REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION
AS TO WHETHER OR T.IOT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTFIICTS IN MECKLEN-
BURG, WAKE, FORSYTH AND DURHAM COUNTIES IN I..IORTH CAROLINA
DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUI.IITY TO ELECT THE
CANDIDATES OF THEiR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?
YE S.
WHAT IS THAT OPINION?
SINGLE---
MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT
TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WAKE COUNTY IN THAT ANSWER. THERE
IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL
WORKINGS OF MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH OR DURHAM OR I,,ILSON-
EDGECOMBE-NASH COUNTIES. HE HAS TESTIFIED AT GREAT
LENGTH ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN WAKE COUNTY. HE HAS
TESTIFIED TO NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL SITUATIONS OF
THE OTHER COUNTIES.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T YOU ASK ANY
QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE,
I F HE HAS ANY, OF THOSE OTHER PLACES?
A
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MR. LEONARD: I DID, YOUR HONOR. I
TRIED TO QUALIFY IT EARLY IN HIS TESTII'4ONY WITH R.ESPECT
TO HI S STATEIIII DE EXPER I ENCE. BUT I WI LL DELVE A L I TTLE
MORE DEEPLY.
.BY MR. LEONARD:
A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ARE YOU FAI.IILIAR V,lITH
THE REPRESENTATIVES WHO REPRESENT DURHAM AND FORSYTH AND
MECKLENBURG COUNTIES?
A YES.
A HAVE YOU OBSERVED THOSE DELEGATIONS AND THEIR
ACTiVITIES WITH RESPECT TO LEGISLATION SINCE YOU HAVE
BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE?
A YE S . I HAVE HAD LONG CONVERSAT I ONS I.J I TH
MEMBERS OF THOSE DELEGATIONS ON THIS VERY SUB.JECT, AS
BETWEEN MULT I _I4E14BER AND S I NGLE-MEMBER DI STR ICTS .
a I.,HAT HAS BEEN YOUR OASTRVATION lWITH RESPECT TO
THE RELATIVE SIMILARITY OR NON-SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE
. POLITICAL SITUATION IN WAKE. COUNTY AND IN THE OTHER THREE
COUNTIES?
A llELL, YOU I-IAVE THE SAME PROPOSITIOl',1 TO
DIFFERING DEGREES. I I4EAN, OTHER COUNTIES HAVE DIFFERENT
DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP AND GEOGRAPHY. BUT THE PP.INCIPLE--THE
BASIC QUESTION IS THE SAME IN ALL THOSE COUNTIES.
MS. I'II NNER: I RENEW MY OP,TJ ECT I ON AND
REQUEST A VOIR DIRE OF THE WITNESS.
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o
PRECISTON REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LJUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, YOU MAY VOIR DIRE
THE WITNESS.
VOIR DIRE 9:45 A. M.
. BY MS. WINNER:
A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU
CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A HAVE I CAI.,IPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE? I HAVE
NEVER CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY.
A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANYBODY ELSEIS
CAMPAIGN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN I.,IECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A NO--JUST STATEWIDE--TYPE THINGS.
A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY STATE\{IDF.
OFFICIALIS CAMPAIGN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A ONLY IN A STATEWIDE CAPACITY.
a oNLY SITTI.NG HERE rN lVarr COUNTY?
A WELL, I HAVE BEEN TO MECKLET.IBURG COUNTY WHEN
WE HAD RALLIES AND THINGS.-
a You woulD Go IN FOR AN HOUR OR TWO?
A I HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE PRECINCT WORK IN
MECKLENBURG COUNTY FOR LEGISLATORS AS I HAVE IN WAKE
COUNTY.
A HAVE YOU EVER MET WITH THE MECKLEI\IBURG COUNTY
BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS?
A NO.
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A MEETING OF THE
MECKLENBURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?
A NO.
a HAVE yOU EVER GONE TO ANy COALTTION MEETiNG rN
MECKLENBURG COUNTY W I TH CAi.ID I DATES OR VOTER S ?
A NO.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, WE ARE GOING TO
ADMIT HIS ANSI^JER TO THE QUESTION THAT WAS LAST PUT TO
HIM. AND YOU CAN EXPLORE EVERYTHING YOU ARE NOW EXPLORII
ON CROSS_EXAMINATION. AND WE HAVE YOUR OBJECTION IN THE
RECORD. IT SI:EMS TO ME YOU HAVE GONE BEYOND VOIR DIRING
HIM.
MS. WINNER: I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO
SHOW H'I S OPPORTUN I TY TO OBSERVE THE PROCESS .
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE I^'ILL TAKE HIS OPII!ION
IN THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT rO r-rrm. AND THEt'l YOU CAN
EXPLORE THAT IN DETAIL ON CROSS-EXAMINATION.
D I R E c r
c[.];fi.I>'
N A r I o N e:45 A'M'
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION?
A THE QUESTION WAS DO I HAVE AN OPINION A.S TO
TiIE EFFECT ON-*-
a (ITTERPOSING) LET ME RESTATE IT SO THERE IS
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THAT YOU DID HAVE AN OPINi
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XX
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AS TO WII[THER OR NOT SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN MECKLEN)
BURG, FORSYTH, DURHAI'I AND WAKE COUNT I ES I N NORTH CAROL INA
DENIED BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDI-
DATES OF THEIR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. i NOW ASK
YOU: VJHAT IS THAT OPINION?
IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT CARVII.IG OUT A SINGLE-
MEMBER BLACK GHETTO DISTRICT, IT UNQUESTIONABLY HAS THE
EFFECT OF DILUTING THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOI'ERS IN THAT
COUNTY. IT IS AXIOMATIC THAT IF THEY CANNOT VOTE BUT FOR
ONE LEGISLATOR, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO I.IAVE ANY INFLUENCE
OVER THE OTHER FIVE OR SIX.
DID YOU SUPPORT MULTi-MEMBE!'. DISTRICTS FOR
THOSE FOUR COUNTiES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WITH THE
INTENTION TO DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO
ELECT CANDIDATES OF THE IR CHOICE IN THOSE DISTRICTS?
, A MR. LEONAR.D, }4Y RECORD I S TO ENSURE THAT BLACK
PEOPLE HAVE INFLUENCE THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE POLITICAL
ACTIVITY. AND I VOTED AGA{NST SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS TO
ENSURE THAT BLACK PEOPLE CONTINUED TO HAVE THAT INFLUENCE
MR. LEONARD: COULD I HAVE .JUST A
MOI.,IENT, PLEASE ?
(PAUSE. )
THAT IS ALL I HAVE.
CROSS_EXAM INATION 9:47 A.l.1.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BY MS. WINNER: \
A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY BLACK PEOPLs IN
DURHAM COUNTY HAVE YOU DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS
I^/ITH OTHER THAN REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING?
A WELL, THROUGHOUT THE YEARS DURHAM UIAS IN OUR
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, I WAS COUNTY CHAIRMAN AND ACTIVE
IN THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT PARTICIPATION. SO I HAVE
DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS AT GREAT LENGTH WITH
PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY--LAVONIA ALLISON.
A DID YOU TALK VJITH LAVONIA ALLISON YESTERDAY
IN THE COURTROOI{ OR IN THE HALL?
A
a
oH, YE S.
DID SHE TELL YOU THAT
DURHAM DO NOT HAVE GOOD
DURHAM COUNTY ?
YEAH. AND I TOLD HER
SHE THOUGHT THAT BLACK
ACCESS TO THE POLITICALPEOPLE IN
PROCESS IN
.A
M I STAKEN.
I THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS
DIDNIT YOU TELL-HER THAT SHE SHOULD TAKE CARE
OF DURHAM AND YOU I^JOULD TAKE CARE OF WAKE?
A WELL, r SArD THAT rN A LrrrLE Brr OF rmpirrr
THAT SOMEONE FROM DURHAM COUNTY THAT HAS NOT HAD ANYWHERE
NEAR THE RECORD OF INVOLVING BLACKS IN THE POLITICAL
PROCESS SHOULD COME OVER HERE AND TELL US WHAT I''E SHOULD
DO IN WAKE COUNTY, WHERE WE HAVE ELECTED BLACKS CONSIS-
TENTLY BY INVOLViNG EVERYBODY IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779 3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY DO INI DURHAM.
A AND SO YOU THINK THAT SOMEBODY FROM DURHAM
SHOULD NOT BE INTERFERING WITH THE POLITICS IN WAKE
C OUNTY ?
A I DONIT THINK THAT SHE IS QUALIFIED TO COME
OVER HERE--_
a (tNrrRposrNG) oo you THINK THAT SOMEBODY iN
DUqHAM COUNTY---
A (rNrrRp0sING) v.trLL, ,IF I couLD ANSWER---
UDGE PHiLLIPS: (INTERPOSTNE) LET IIIM
FINISH HIS ANSWER.
THE WITNESS: I DONIT THII.,IK SHE IS
QUALIFIED IN THE LACK OF SUCCESS THAT SHE HAS HAD IN
DURHAM COUNTY WHEN SHE HAS BEEN THE COUNTY CHAIRMAN. HER
POLICIES IIAVE RESULTED IN RACiAL POLARIZATION. WE ARE
WORKING FOR THE OPPOSITE IN WAKE COUNTY. WE WANT PEOPLE
TO WORK TOGETHER.
AND I JUST DONItr THINK THAT SHE IS--I THOUGHT
IT I^/AS A LITTLE CHEEKY OF HER TO COME OVER HERE AND TELL
US HOW'TO RUN WAKE COUNTY.
BY MS. WINNER,:
A SO YOU THINK THAT SHE FROM DURHAM COUNTY
SHOULD NOT TELL YOU IN WAKE COUNTY HOI^, TO RUI'J YOUR
BUS I NESS ?
A NO. AND I DONII T TELL HER IN DURHAM COUNTY
P. O. gor 28ra
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
HOW TO P.UN HER BUS I NES S .
a ALL RIGHT. SO yOU DON'T TTIINK THAT yOU SHOULD
TELL PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY HOW TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS?
A NO.
a Now, WHAT IS YOUR--HAVE yOU EVER COMPAIGNED
FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A NO.
a HavT YoU EVER PARTICIPATED IN THE CAMPAIGN oF
ANYBODY ELSE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A I THINK WHEN NICK GALIFIANAKIS RAN I I^/A5 SORT
PERIPHERALLY INVOLVED IN THAT.
.a UJHAT YEAR WAS THAT-- 1g 7 0 ?
A OH, NO. THAT WAS r65 OR '66, I THINK.
A THAT WAS THE LAST CANDIDATE YOU CAMPAIGNED AI'ID
WORKED IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A WELI., I DIDNI T ACTUALLY WORK I N FORSYTH COUNTY
HE WAS RUNNING IN FORSYTH COUNTY.
A YOU DIDNIT WORK.IN HIS CAMPAIGN IN FORSYTH
COUNTY ?
A NO--I.JOT IN FORSYTH COUNTY. NO.
A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY COMMUNITY MEETINGS
IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A NO.
A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY CANDIDATE COALITION
MEETINGS IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
F P. O. Bor 2!lct
u Rd.rgh, Nonh C.reiln. 270il
,l
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A NO.
A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE IVINSTON_SALEM
NEWSPAPERS?
A r cAN' r sAY FREQUENTLY. No.
I
A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE CHARLOTTE i
NEwspApERs?
rvv rNL,uLrrrLr ^LAU ltlt- \-,.A..Lvlltr
l
A MORE FREqUENTLY THAN THE W I NSTON-SALE|'1.
a occASroNALLY?
A YEAH. I WOULD SAY ONCE OR TU/ICE A WEEK I READ
THE CHARLOTTE PAPER.
A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE FORSYTH
COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?
A NO.
A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE DURHAM
COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE?
. A NO.
a HAVE yOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS 0F THE WINSTOT.J-
SALEM IMPROVEMENT ASSOCIATI,ON?
A NO.
a Do You KNow !{HAT THE WINSToN-SALEM IMPROVEMENT
ASSOCIATION IS?
A I ASSUME IT IS SIMILAR TO THE ASSOCIATIONS WE
HAVE HERE IN WAKE COUNTY.
a BUT YOU DONr T KNOl.i ?
A NO.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. /tlAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457],
PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P, O. Bor 2tl(l
Ll R.hroh. Nodh Ct.ott0 2?Clt
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OR
PRECISION REPORTlNG
AND TITANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA
FORSYTH COUNTY BLACK LEADERSHIP
WHO THE MEMBERS OF THE
CONFERENCE ARE?
NO.
A HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THE
CHAIRMAN OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY ABOUT
PAP.TICIPATING WITH BL.ACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN, IF I MAY---
(TNTTpPOSING) T HAVE No IDEA. Do YoU KNoW?
WELL, I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH PEOPLE FROM
WINSTON.SALET4 AND FORSYTH COUNTY ABOUT THE PARTiCIPATICi\I
OF BLACKS I N THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN FORSYTI-I COUNTY.
DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE
FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATiC PARTY IS?
A NO. I DONIT KNOW IF I WAS TALKING TO THE
CHA]RMAN AT THAT TiME OR NOT.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLEN_
BURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARIY IS?
A NOT AT PRESENT; NO.
A AND YOU HAVE NEVER DISCUSSED WITH HIM OR HER
THE PARTICIPATION OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
f.lO.
DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THIS
STATE HAS DIFFERENT STRENGTHS IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES?
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBTNG, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A WELL, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS
IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES, MS. WINNER.
A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS
IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A . WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC ELECTION. I
THINK PROBABLY GENERALLY YOU COULD MAKE THAT STATEMENT.
YES.
A MoRE REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED IN MECKLENBURG
COUNTY THAN IN WAKE COUNTY?
A YES.
A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS
IN FORSYTH COUNTY?
A YES.
A AND THOSE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE COUNTIE
A OH, YEAH. Tt-tEY ARE DIFFERENT.
A AND THOSE DIFFERENCES WOULD AFFECT THE ACCESS
OF BLACK PEOPLE TO THE PROCESS; WOULDNIT THEY?
A THEY DONIT AFFECT THE BASIC PRINCIPLE--THAT IF
YOU PUT THE BLACKS ALL IN ONE;.AREA IT IS GOING TO WEAKEN
THEIR INFLUENCE.
a Now---
A (IruTENPOSING) NruO I HAVE DISCUSSED THAT WITH
PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTIES. AND I DISCUSSED IT AT LENGTH
WITH REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN WE WERE DEALING WITH THIS
QUESTTON.
A P. O. lor 2atB
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A BUT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS FROM WAKE C3UNTY
ALSO; ISNIT HE?
A YES. BUT HE MADE---
\
a (trurenposlNc) aNo HE HAS NEVER LrVED IN DUR
COUNTY; HAS HE?
A NO. BUT M,t. WINNER, HE MADE A STUDY OF ALL
THESE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND THE VOTING PRECINCTS AND
WHERE PEOPLE LIVED IN ALL THESE COUNTIES. SEE, HE WAS
ON THE COMMITTEE. AND HE TOOK THE LEAD ON THE COMMITTEE
IN COMING UP WITH THIS INFORMATION.
A SO YOUR OPINION IS BASED ON REPRESENTATIVE
BLUEI S STUDY?
A LARGELY, ON THIS QUESTION; YEAH--FOR THOSE
OTHER COUNT !'ES.
A AND NOT ON YOUR PERSONAL STUDY?
A THAT IS TRUE. THAT I; TRUE
A NOW, THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE LEGISLATURE DID
NOT EXIST IN 1981; DID IT? -
A NOT AS SUCH; NO.
a SO IT DIDN' T MEET IN 1981; DID IT?
A !^/ELL, I T:-IINK THE THREE BLACKS MET. YES. BUT
TH5 Y- --
a ( I rurrnPos I l.lc) NOr AS A BLACK CAUCUS?
A BUT THEY DIDN'T TAKE AN OFFICIAL POSITION. L
ME EXPLAIN I^/HAT THEY DID. THE THREE---
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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
q (trvrrcpr):;ING)
YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?
REDIRECT, HE MAY.
MR. LEONARD:
REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, WOULD
IF COUNSEL WANTS TO ASK YOU ON
IF THE COURT PLEASE, I
THINK THAT COUNSEL IS CUTTING OFF THE WITNESS FROM FUI-.[.Y
ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. SHE IS MACHINE-GUNNING HIM.
AND I THTNK IF HE HAS AN EXPLANATION TO GIVE TO THE
QUESTION, HE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE IT.
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : I THINK YOU HAVE HAD A
TENDENCY TO OVERRUN HIM A LITTLE BIT, MS. l,/IN:.,IER, TOWARD
THE MIDPART OF WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN. SO WHEN
YOU ASK A QUESTION, UNLESS YOU LIMIT IT, BE PREPARED TO
LET THE WITNESS P.ANGE AS WIDELY AS THE QUESTION RANGED.
BY M5. WINNER:
THE QUESTION WAS:q
rN 1981?
A
sAID, ilWE
CHAIRMAN.II
DID TIIE BLACK CAUCUS MEET
NOT AS AN OFFICIAL BLACK CAUCUS WHERE THEY
ARE A BLACK CAUCUS. AND WE ARE ELECTING A
a THANK YOIJ.
A THE THREE BLACKS MET. THEY CAUCUSED AND CAME
AND LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEIR CONCERNS WERE.
A AND OTHER GROUPS OF LEGISLATORS MET AND HAD
COMMON CONCERNS AS I.JELL?
oH, YES.
A P. O. aor irtlC3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A AND THAT IS A VERY COMMON THING TO HAPPEN
IN THE LEGISLATURE?
A WELL, IT IS MORE COMMON NOW, NOW THAT YOU HAVE
A I^IOMEN I S CAUCUS, WH I CH I TH INK HAS oFF I C IAL STIIIJCTURE .
AND YOU HAVE THE CAPE FEAR CAUCUS. THERE ARE MORE
CAUCUSES NOW TIJAN iHERE USED TO BE I S I"IHAT I A}4 SA'f ING.
SO IT IS COMMON NOi^/. YES.
a IN 1983, THE BLACK CAUCUS FIRST CAME INTO
OFFICIAL, FORMAL EXISTENCE?
A YES. I THiNK THAT IS CORRECT.
A YOU NEVER WENT TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE BLACK
CAUCUS; DID YOU?
A NO.
A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT VJAS SAID DURING THE
MEETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUSi DO YOU--OF YOUR OWN
KNOWLEDGE ?
A I KNOW WHAT W.qS R,EL,\TED TO ME WAS THE CONCERNS
OF THE BLACK CAUCUS AND WHAT MATTERS THAT I WAS TO TAKE
ACTION ON.
A YOU DID NOT HEAR ANY OF THE MEETINGS OF THE
BLACK CAUCUS?
A NO.
A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER ANY BLACK MEMBERS OF
THE LEGISLATURE EXPRESSED THEIR FEARS ABOUT INTIMIDATION
DURING THE I4EETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS; DO YOU?
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NO. WELL, I WOULD HAVE HEARD THAT. yES. \
a you Do NoT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY DID?.
A NO. I DO NOT KNOW. BUT I AM CONFIDENT IF THA
HAD BEEN SAID, I WOULD HAVE HEARD IT WITHIN A DAY.
.THAT IS YOUR BELIEF?
THAT IS MY BELIEF. YES.
a AND yOU DO NOT SPECIFICALLY KNOW WHETHER ANy
BLACK LEGISLATORS ASKED FRANK BALLANCE PRIVATELY TO TAKE
THE LEAD ON ANY ISSUES; DO YOU?
NO.
A HAVE YOU EVER DISCUSSED THAT ISSUE WITH
REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE OTHER THAN HEARING HIS TESTIMONY
IN THIS COURTROOM?
A I.IO-_BECAUSE I WAS RATHER SURPRISED AT WHAT HE
SAID. AND I WOULD HAVE DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM IF I HAD
KNO},N HE HAD ANY I NCLINATIOI'I TO aaararE THAT.
YOU HAVE NOT DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM?
A NO.
A NOI.I, THESE DELEGAT I ON AGREEMENTS AS I UNDER_
STAND THEM--THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ACT AS A DELEGATION--
THEY ARE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
WELL, THEY HAVE NO LEGAL MANDATORY EFFECT.
AND IF A COUNTY WERE SUBDIVIDED, THERE WOULD
BE NOTHING TO PREVENT THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE SUB-
D IVI s I ONS OF THE COUNTI ES FROM E!.ITERING INTO A VOLUNTARY
a
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AGREEMENT; WOULD THERE?
A OH, NO.
a NOW, YOU ARE A PARTY DEMOCRATi AREN'T yOU?
A A PARTY DEMOCRAT?
A YOU PERCEIVE YOURSELF TO BE A DEMOCRAT?
A OH, YES.
A AND YOU ARE VERY VOCAL ABOUT THAT?
A I TRY TO BE. YEAH.
A AIID YOU ARE LOYAL TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?
A I TRY TO BE.
A AND YOU TRY TO DO THINGS THAT PROMOTE IT?
A OH, YES.
A AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT IF YOU SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTED MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE
COUNTIES THAT THAT WOULD HELP REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED?
. A NO QUESTI ON THAT IT 'yr'OULD. YES. I HAVE SAID
THAT.
A AND THAT I S ONE OE THE REASONS THAT YOU ARE
OPPOSED TO DOING THAT; ISNTT IT?
A YES.
A YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE FOR A LONG
TiME--SEVERAL YEARS?
A FIVE TERMS.
A IN YOUR PERCEPTION, AT LEAST FOR DEMOCRATS
DOES SENIORITY HELP YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATUR
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARiZONA
A I-JELL , lT I S ONE OF THE FACTORS. YOUR
EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATURE IS MAII\ILY LUCK THAT YoU
ARE AT THE RIGHT PLACE IN THE RIGHT TIME AND PICK THE
RIGHT CANDIDATE FOR SPEAKER.
A .IT DOESNIT GUARANTEE YOUR EFFECTIVENESS, BUT
IT CERTAINLY ASSISTS YOUR EFFECTIVENESS?
A YES. SENIORITY DOES. ABILITY ALSO AFFECTS
YOUR EFFECTIVENESS.
A SENIORITY IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS
ONE OF THE FACTORS?
A NO. FOR INSTANCE, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WAS
RATED IN THE TOP QUARTER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHEN HE
WAS A FRESHMAN. HE WAS RATED ]1ST.
A SO IT IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS ONE
OF THE FACTORS?
. A NO. I T I S ONE OF TTIE TECTORS. YES.
a Do you KNow oF ANy ELECTION THAT HAS HAD A
SECOND PRIMARY IN WHICH A RUTE WITH A 45 PERCENT CUTOFF
AND A 1O PERCENT SPREAD I.IOULD HAVE CHANGED THE RESULTS?
A I SAW SOME CHARTS, MS. I.JINNER, ABOUT THE
DIFF=RENT PROPOSALS. AND I DONIT RECALL WHETHER THAT
WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANY RESULTS.
A AT THE TII4E: THAT YOU PROPOSED TO AMEND THE
BILL, DID YOU KNOW WI.{ETHER OR NOT CHANGING TO THAT RULE
WOULD CHANGE THE RESULTS OF ANY ELECTIONS?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOEN|X. ARtZO.IA
A NO. I CAN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT I COULD
POINT TO ANY--YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PAST ELECTIONS?
A YES, SIR?
A NO. I CANNOT POINT TO ANY SPECIFIC PAST
ELECTION. .IT MIGHT CHANGE THE RESULT IN SOME FUTURE
E LECT I ON.
A BUT YOU DONIT KNOW? THAT IS SPECULATION?
A WELL, ALL FUTURE ELECTIONS ARE SPECULATION.
YES.
a Now, IS
HAVE EQUALLY HIGH
COUNTY ?
A NO. WE
AND STILL HAVENIT
A AND IN
IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT BLACK PEOPLE
REGISTRATION AS WHITE PEOPLE IN I.'AKE
HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR 20 YEARS
GOTTEN IT UP TO THE LEVEL OF WHITE.
FACT, THERE IS STILL A SUBSTANTIAL GAP?
DON'T KNOW IF i' IS SUBSTANTIAL.. A WELL, I
THERE IS A GAP.
WOULD YOU CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS TO BE
SUBSTANTIAL?
I WOULD CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS AS BEING
UNACCEPTABLE.
A YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE
CONSISTENTLY BEEN ELECTED TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL AT
LARGE. ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THERE ARE NO BLACK REPRESEN-
TATIVES ELECTED AT LAP.GE TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL, AND
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
THAT THERE HAVE NOT BEEN FOR THE PAST AT LEAST FOUR OR
SIX YEARS?
A I.rO. MS. WINNER, I APOLOGIZS. WHEN WE HAD THE
AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR THE ELECTION OF THE RALEIGH CITY
COUNCIL--THAT t^lAS CHANGED IN THE SEVENTIES. BUT BEFORE
THEN, THERE WAS CONSISTENTLY BLACKS ELECTED AT LARGE
UNDER THE AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL START-
ING IN 1961. I BELIEVE THAT SENATOR WINTERS WAS THE
FIRST ONE. AND THEN HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY MAYOR LIGHTNER.
AND THEN WHEN WE WENT INTO THE MIXED SYSTEM
AND THE DIRECT ELECTION OF THE MAYOR, MAYOP. LIGHTNER WAS
ELECTED MAYOR. SO I THINK IN EVERY YEAR SINCE I HAVE
BEEN ASSoCIATED IN POLITICS SINCE 1960, WE HAVE--AND VtE
HAD AN AT-LARGE ELECTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL--WE HAD A
BLACK ON THE CITY COUNCIL.
A BUT SINCE I.T HAS CHANGED TO A MI
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BLACK PERSON ELECTED
THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL; HAS THERE?
XED
AT
SYSTEM,
LARGE TO
NO.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CANDIDATES; HAVENIT
THERE ?
A I THINK SPURGE CAMERON RAN ONE TIME.
A NOW, THERE \^'AS A BILL INTRODUCED IN THE
LEGISLATURE IN 1981 THAT WOULD HAVE CREATED SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS AS OF 1990 ALL OVER THE STATE; WASNIT THERE?
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRlBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH. 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I THINK THAT THE REPRESENTATIVE HAGY, A
REPUBL]CAN REPRESENTATIVE, INTRODUCED A PLAN THAT DID
TnRT oI'I BEHALF oF THE REPUBLIcANS.
MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE
WITNESS?
BY MS . I'I I NNER :
A LET ME SHOW YOU THIS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLEC-
TION.
A OH, YES. THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE BARKER'S
BILL.
A WHAT I HAVE HANDED YOU IS HOUSE BILL 229; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
a FROM THE 1981 SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?
A uH-HUH.
A COULD YOU READ THE SHORT TITLE OF THAT BILL?
A THE SHORT
""T
IS ''SINGLE-MEMB=R LEGISLATIVE
DISTRICTS.II
A WOULD YCU READ THE LONG TITLE OF THE BILL?
A ''...AN ACT TO AMEND ARTICLE 2 OF THE NORTH
CAROLINA CONSTITUTION TO CHANGE THE NUMBER OF
REPRESENTATIVES TO PROVIDE FOR SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS AND TO SET THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR
MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.II
A CAN YOU READ THE FIRST SPONSOR OF THE BILL?
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PRECIS]ON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
REPRESENTAIIVE BARKER.
WHO IS THE SECOND SPONSOR OF THE BILL?
ADAI'1S
IS THAT YOU?
THAT I S ME.
a REPRESEI'ITATIVE ADAMS, wERE You rt'tE ATTORI'IEy
FOR WAKE COUNTY WHEN WAKE COUNTY BAILED OUT OF SECTION 5?
A NO.
A HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER
THAT ALLOWED THE BAILOUT?
A A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER? I DON'T BELIEVE
I HAVE. NO.
MS. WINNER: IN T!-!AT CASE, I WOULD
MOVE TO STRIKE THE PORTION OF REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS'
TESTIMONY THAT GIVES THE REASONS THAT I./AKE COUNTY WAS
ALLOWED TO BAIL OUT FP.qM SECTION ;. I THINK IT IS PUBLIC
RECORD. AND WE T.JOULD CERTAINLY STIPULATE , THAT T.'AKE
couNTY wAS ALLOI^JED To BAIL our FROM sEcrIoN 5. BUT THE
STANDARD THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT USED TO COI..ISENT TO
THAT BAILOUT IS CERTAINLY BEYOND REPRESEIiTATIVE ADAMST
POSSIBLE KNOWLEDGE AND IS BEST PROVED, IF PROVED AT ALL,
BY THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSENT ORDER AND NOT BY REPRESEN-
TAT I VE ADAMS I I NTERPRETAT I ON OF I,JHAT I T II1EANT.
MR. LEONARD: I^IELL, I F THE CoURT PLEASE
IF THAT IS MEANT TO II1PEACH THE WITN:SS, LETTS HAVE THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
COPY OF THE ORDEP..
t4S. T./ I NNER : IT IS NOT I4EANT TO II.,I_
PEACH THE WITNESS. IT IS MEANT TO SHOI,I THAT THE TESTI-
MONY IS INCOMPE'TENT.
MR. LEONARD: THE WITNESS TESTIFIED TO
WHAT HIS RECOLLECTION OF THE FACTS WERE. AND UNTIL THAT
TESTIMONY IS CONTROVERTED, AT THIS JUNCTURE THERE IS
NOTHING IN THE RECORD TO INDICATE THAT HIS RECOLLECTION
ISNIT AS GOOD AS THE OFFICIAL RECORD.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: OVERRULED.
BY MS . I.I I NNER :
A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR
KNOI,ILEDGE OF THE REASONS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
DECIDED TO CONSENT TO THE SECTION 5 BAILOUT?
A CONVERSATIONS WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND
I^'ITH. SPECIFICALLY JIM SHEPHERD, WHO WAS THE LEADER OF
THE BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE AND WHO I'IAS MY CLOSE
FRIEND AND ADVISOR.
A ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THE TIME PERIOD FOR
DETERMINING BAILOUT WAS FIVE YEARS AND NOT 15 YEARS, AS
YOU TESTIFIED?
A I AM SURE OF THAT. THEY HAD TO GO BACK IN
HISTORY TO---
a ( r Nrrnpos r NG) so you REALLY DoN '! T KNow Ho\^:
MANY YEARS THEY HAD TO GO BACK?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A IT
TO TRY--THEY
14 FBI AGENTS
SHEPHERD TOLD
I.lAVE BEEN FIVE.
THE COUNTY. THEY
OR INVESTIGATORS.
THEY WENT BACK I N
SENT SOMETHII'IG LIKE
THIS IS WHAT
COULD
COMBED
HERE
ME.
THI Saso IS ALL JUST WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE SAID TO
YOU ?
THIS IS WHAT THE LEADER OF THE BLACK REGISTRA-
TION DRIVE TOLD I'1E. AND HE SAID THEY WENT ALL OVER THE
COUNTRY TRYING TO FIND INSTANCES OF VOTER DISCRIMINATION
OR RAcIAL DI SCRIIlINATICN IN VoTER REGISTRATIoN. AND THEY
COULDI'.IIT FIND ANY.
AT..ID SO THEY ADVISED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
THAT THERE WASNIT ANY. AND THEY CONSENTED T}IAT THERE
I^JASNIT ANY. AND WE GOT OUT OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT THE SCOPE OF THE
INVESTIGATION WAS LIMiTED TO WHETHER OR NOT A LITERACY
TEST HAD BEEN USED ?
I THINK THAT l,{AS.THE CRITERIA.-WI{ETHER THE
LITERACY TEST WAS USED TO DENY BLACKS ACCESS TO VOTER
REGISTRATION. AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT--THE VOTER RIGHTS
ACT RAISED A PRESUMPTION THAT IF YOU HAD A LITERACY TEST
AND LESS THAN 50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OF YOUR COUNTY
PARTICIPATED IN THE 1964 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THERE WAS
A PRESUMPTION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION--USE OF THE
LITERACY TEST FOR RACIAL DISCIlIl.1II.IATI3N.
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AND SO IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THE ONLY
DETERI'lINATIOT\I MADE BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS THAT, IN
FACT, BECAUSE OF THE PECULIAR II.{STITUTIONAL POPULATION OF
I,IAKE COUNTY THAT THE STATISTICS ABOUT THE NU|{BER oF
PEOPLE WHO VOTED WEitE \./RONG?
A
POSS I BLE.
THAT WAS NEVER REPORTED. I MEAN, IT IS
BUT I NEVER HEARD THAT. NO.
o
A YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT THE PROBLEM AROSE
BECAUSE WAKE COUNTY HAS OR BEC,A.USE RALEIGH HAS CENTRAL
PRISON AND RALEIGH HAS COLLEGES. AND THEREFCRE, THE
CENSUS DATA W,AS INFLATED AS TO THE NUMBEII OF PEOPLE?
A NO. WE DIDNTT ATTACK IS WHAT--I,E DID NOT
ATTACK THE CENSUS ITSELF. THAT VJAS NOT THE GROUNDS FOR
OUR APPEAL.
a WERE you THE pr_RSON WHO DECIDED THE GROUNDS
FOR THE APPEAL
A LARGELY; YES.
a WERE you IN THE COURTROOM WHEN THE AppEAL VJAS
MADE ?
NO. IT VJAS DONE BY CONSENT ORDER. I,JE WENT UP
AND TALKED TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTI.4ENT.
WERE YOU THERE DURING THE CONVERSATION?
YES.
q AND THE DETERMINATION \^IAS THAT THE LITERACY
TEST HAD NOT BEE USED TO DISCRII,IINATE IN A FIVE-YEAR
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2lld
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PERIOD; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THE DETERMINATION AS I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS THAT
Tne JUSTIcE D.EPARTMENT AND THE FBI CoULD FIND No EViDENCE
IN WAKE COUNTY OF THE LITERACY TEST BEING USED TO
DISCRI14INATE AGAINST BLACK VOTERS.
a AND yOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TIME PERIOD WAS?
A IT WAS SOME YEARS PAST. THEY HAD TO GO BACK
IN THE PAST FOR SOME YEARS.
a You DoN,T KNOW HOW MANY YEARS?
A NO. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY YEARS.
MS. WINNER: I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER
QUESTIONS.
R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:10 A.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A TELL THE CO.URT WHY YOU INTRODUCED THE BILL IN
THE LAST SESSIOI'J OR THE SESSION SEFORE REL,\TING TO SINGLE
MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE DECADE OF THE NINETIES.
A iN 1975 I HAD INTRODUCED A CONSTITUTIONAL
AMENDI.4ENT WHICH ALLOI,JED A COUNTY, IF IT WANTED TO, TO
HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. IT WAS NOT MANDATORY.
AND ADMIRAL BAP.KER HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN THAT FOR SOI1E
T IME.
AND AT TtjAT TIME, THE CONSTITUTION--t^'ELL, IT
STILL SAYS SO, BUT IT IS INOPERATIVE--THAT A COUNTY
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. Bor ZEl((l
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COULD NOT BE SPLIT. P.ND I THOUGHT AT THAT TIME THAT IT
MIGHT BE ADVANTAGEOUS AT SOME TIMES TO SPLIT A COUNTY;
AND THAT AT LEAST THAT WE OUGHT TO HAVE THAT OP':'ION.
AND REPRESENTATIVE BARKER SUPPORTED ME ON THAT
AND WAS VERY ACTIVE ON IT AND SAID, "NOW, I AM GOING TO
INTRODUCE THIS ONE DOI.TN THE LINE. I WANT YOU TO HELP ME.I
so WHEN HE BROUGIIT tlE THE BILL, I WAS OBLIGATED TO SIGN
THE THING. I D ID NOT INTRODUCE IT. I TJUST SIGhIED IT, AS
DID A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE. BIJT IT I^'AS BECAUSE OF HIS
PAS T HE LP 'd I TI.I },1E .
A COUNSEL ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT IT IS
IMPOSSIBLE FOR REPRESENTATIVES FROM COUNTIES WHO REPRE-
SENT SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICTS TO FORM A CAUCUS. AND I
BEL I EVE YOUR ANSWER WAS THAT I T I S POSS I BLE. !^'AS THAT
YOUR ANSWER?
. A OH, CERTAINLy IT IS pOSSIBLE. ANYBODY CAN
FORM A CAUCUS IF THEY WANT TO.
a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
THERE I S THE SAi4E DEGREE OF MOTIVATION FOR REPRESENTATIVF-
REPRESENTING THE SAME COUNTY BUT FROM SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRICTS TO ACT AS A COHESIVE GROUP OR A CAUCUS AS
THERE IS WHEN THOSE REPRESENTATIVES ARE ELECTED AT LARGE?
MS. WINNER: OBJECTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.
THE !^IITNESS: DO I HAVE AN OPINION?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
YES. HAVE AN OPINION.
BY MR. LEONA.RD:
YES? WHAT IS THAT OPINION?
MS. WINNER:
. JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
THE i.JI TNESS:
OBJECT I ON.
OVERRUTED.
WELL, GENERALLY, IF YOU
IT T'JAS PURELY A
MATTER OF YOUR
UNDER WHICH WAKE
DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CONSTITUI-:NIS, YOU DO NOT HAVE A
COMMONALITY OF INTEREST. AND THE CAUCUS IS NOT THAT
EFFECTIVE. AND YOUS{ DELEGATION IS NOT THAT EFFECTIVE.
AND I CAN CITE AN INSTANCE IF YOU WANT.
MR. LEONARD:
THAT IS ALL.
I THINK WE HAVE YOUR
OPINIOI'I.
EXAMINATION 10:12 A.M.
BY.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
DO I UNDER.S.TAND THAT YOUR TESTII4ONY IS THAT
YOU SIGNED THE BARKER BILL ESSENTIALLY TO DISCHARGE AN
OBLIGATION AND THAT IT RAN. COUNTER TO YOUR PERCEPTION
ABOUT THE RELATIVE VIRTUES OF THE MULTI-MEMBER AND SINGLE
MEMBER DISTRICTS SO FAR AS THE INT:RESTS OF 3LACK
CITIZENS?
A IN 1981--THAT IS CORRECT.
POLITICAL OBLIGATION.
a Do r UNDERSTAI.ID THAT ON THE
KNOI'JLEDGE RESPECT I NG THE C IRCUMSTANCES
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COUNTY WAS RELIEVED OF THE VO }NG RIGHTS OBLIGATIONS
THAT YOU WE:T: A PAR.T I C I PANT I N THE LEGAL 5FFORTS THAT LED
TO THAT ACTION?
YES. IT WAS MY IDEA, JUDGE PHILI-IPS.
AND YOU WENT TO WASHINGTON?
YES__WIT}1 THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND THE CHI\IRMAN
OF THE BOARD OF ELECTION.
q T{ERE YOU AWARE AT THE TIME OF THE BASIS UPON
WHICH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ACTED AS REFLECTED IN THE
CONSENT ORDER?
TOM BANKS, THE COUNTY ATTORNEY, TOLD I.4E WHAT
THEY DID.
A AT WHAT POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE PROCEEDINGS AS
A DIRECT PARTICIPANT, SO THAT YOU HAD LATER TO GET YOUR
KNOWLEDGE A3OUT WHAT HAPPENED FROM MR. BANKS?
, A WELL, THE. PROCEEDING WAS.-BILL STEVENSON AND
MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--BILL STEVENSON WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE
BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--I THINK HE
WAS AT THAT TIME--AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN, WHO WAS THE
SUPERVI SOR OF ELECTIONS, AND TOM BANKS, I^,HO WAS COUNTY
ATTORNEY AND MYSELF, WHO HAD HEADED THE VOTER REGISTRA-
TION DRIVE WHICH HAD RESULTED IN DOUBLING THE REGISTRA-
TION OF BLACKS IN WAKE CoUNTY, WENT TO WASHINGTON---
a (tNTEP.POSING) 1^,ELL, WHEN DID YOU LEAVE THE
PROCESS SO THAT YOUR FIRSTI{AND KNO'J/LEDGE OF WHAT WAS
F P. O 8or 2t'1Gt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
GOING ON CEASED?
A WELL, THERE WAS A CONFERENCE IN WASHINGTON
WiTH THE CIVI L RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
A YOU PARTICIPATED IN THAT?
A .I PARTICIPATED IN THAT. AS A RESULT OF THAT,
TOM BANKS_-WE CAME BACK. AND TOI4 BANKS DREW THE LAVISUIT.
AND I I^JAS INI CONTACT WITH HIM EITHER PERSONALLY OR BY
TELEPHONE AS TO WHAT WOULD GO IN THERE. AND THEN HE
INFORMED ME THAT THE FBI WAS DOI^/N HERE INVESTIGATING US.
AND JIM SHEPHERD TOLD ME THAT ALSO, WHO IS A BLACK LEADER.
A DO YOU RECALL IF THE CONSENT ORDER IN ITS FINA
FORM REFLECI'S THE BASIS UPON WHICH THE_--
A (INTTRPOSING) NO; I DONTT, JUDGE PHILLIPS. I
JUST KNOW THAT HE TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD CONSENTED.
.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT . THANK YOU .
ANY QUESTIONS FROt4 COU.NSEL?
MS. r'{INNER: NO, SIR.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: . THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.
AD.AMS.
MR. LEOI'IARD: MAY THE IdITNESS BE
EXCUSED ?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MS. WINNER, DO YOU HAVE
ANY OBJECTION TO }.IIS BEING EXCUSED?
MS. WI NNER:
I HAVE NO OBJECTION.
YES, SIR. I AM SORRY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
(I^IiTNESS EXCUSED. )
(wnrREUPcN,
THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS
rOltOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 10:17 A.I\,1.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a wouLD You STATE YOUR FULL---
MS. V{INNER: (INTERPOSING) YOUR HONC')
MAY DR. GROFMAN SIT WITH ME AT THE TABLE?
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DR. GRoFMAN MAY SIT wITH
YOU AT THE COUNSEL TABLE.
MS. WINNER.:
BY MR. LEONARD:
THANK YOU.
a woulD you STATE youR FULL NAM: AND YOUR
ADDRESS, PLEASE ?
A THOMAS BROOKS HOF€LLER; 9005 VERNON VIEI, DRIV
ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA.
A ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED?
A I AM.
a BY WHoM ARE YOU EiiPLOYED?
A THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COI'IMITTEE IN I,IASHING-
TON, D. C.
1 AND IN WHAT CAPACITY?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I AM THE DIRECTOR OF THE COMPUTER SERVICES
DIVISION.
A DO YOUR DUTIES INCLUDE POLITICAL ANALYSIS?
A THEY DO.
A .DO PART OF THOSE DUTIES IN POLITICAL ANALYSIS
INCLUDE VOTER ANALYSIS?
A THEY DO.
A TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT DEGREES YOU HAVE
AND WHAT YEARS YOU RECEIVED THEM.
A I RECEIVED A BACHELORIS DEGREE FROM CLAREMONT
MENIS COLLEGE IN 1970 AND A PH.D. FROM CLAREMONT GRADUATE
SCHOOL IN 1980.
a WHAT t.tAS THE SUB.JECT OF YOUR DOCTORAL
DI SSERTAT ION?
A MISSISSIPPI REDISTRICTING.
A HAD YOU BEEN ACTIVE IN THE REDISTRICTING OF
THE MISSISSIPPI LEGISLATURE PRIOR TO THE TIME OR DURING
THE TIME YOU WROTE THAT DISSERTATION?
A PRIOR TO THE TIME I HAD BEEN ACTIVE.
A DTD YOU TESTIFY IN FEDERAL COURTS IN
MISSISSIPPI AND IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA I./ITH P.ESPECT
TO CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTING IN THE STATE
OF MISSISSIPPI?
A MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I GAVE A DEPOSITION
FOR THE FEDERAL COURT IN MISSISSIPPI IN REGARD TO THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ST.d.'i'E HOUSE AND SENATE REDISTRICTINGS. AND I TESTIFIED
IN REGARD TO LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING IN THE DISTRICT
COURT IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.
A TELL THE COURT WHERE ELSE YOU HAVE TESTIFIED
ON THE SUB.J.ECT OF REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO FEDERAL
COURTS.
I AI..1 SORRY. WITH RESPECT TO---
( I NrrnPos i NG) rrornRu couP.TS ?
FEDERAL COURTS. I TESTIFIED IN THE ILLINOIS
LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING CASE, THE RUBICKI CASE. AND I
TESTIFIED IN THE CHICAGO CITY COUNCIL REDISTRICTING CASE.
THAT WAS A SECTION 2 CASE LAST YEAR.
AND ILLiNOIS CONGRESSIONAL?
YTs-_TnE ILLINOIS CONGRESSIONAL CASE ALSO.
THEY I^TERE RIGHT TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.
A WHAT OTHER STATE REDI"*'CTING WITH RESPECT
TO CONGRESS OR LEGISLATURES HAVE YOU PARTICIPATED IN?
I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN CONGRESSIONAL REDIS-
TRICTING IN CALIFORNIA, TO SOME DEGREE IN WASHINGTON
STATE, IN MINNESOTA, IN ILLINOIS, TO SOME DEGREE IN NORTH
CAROLINA. I HAVE DRAWN PLANS FOR NEW JERSEY. I HAVE
PARTICIPATED IN PREPARATION OF THE COMMITTEEIS AMICUS
BRIEF TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT IN THE NEW JERSEY RE-
DISTRICTING CASE, !,/HICH WAS.JUST DECIDED.
DI STRICTS FOR Tt{E STATE OF'MAINE.
I HAVE DRAWN
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN MY CAPACITY AS DIRECTOR OF THE REDIS-
TRICTING DIVISION OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEF
I HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE SCOPE OF CON-
GRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING ACROSS THE NATION.
A TELL THE COURT THE FIRST YEAR THAT YOU BECAME
INVOLVED IN THE SUB.JECT OF REDISTRICTING IN A DIRECT AS
OPPOSED TO AN ACADEMIC MANNER.
A rN 1965---
a (trurrRposll.tc) .lusr TELL us THE YEAR.
A rN 1965.
A HAVE YOU SINCE THAT TIME CONTINUOUSLY BEEN
EMPLOYED AND/OR II.IVOLVED IN MATTERS HAVING TO DO WITH
REDISTRICTING OF LEGISLATIVE BODIES?
A NOT PRECISELY CONSISTENTLY. BUT I I-IAVE HAD
EXPERIENCE OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, PARTICULARLY FROM
1970 THROUGH THE PRESENT.
A DID YOU PREPARE DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 36, WHICH
IS YOUR RESUME?
(orr,enoRruTs EXHIBIT No. 36 wAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A I DID.
I.4R. LEONARD: WE OFFER DEFENDANTS I
EXHIBIT
'6
AT THIS TIME, IF THE COURT PLEASE.
MS. WINNER:
THE COURT:
NO OBJECTION.
IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OBJECTION.
(oErrruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. ,5 wAS
RECEIVED IN rvTorxcr. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
A .WHEN DID YoU FIRST BECoME INVoLVED IN THE
ISSUE OF THE REDISTRICTING OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATI\E
AND THE SENATE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA?
A THAT WAS IN THE FALL OF 1981.
A TELL THE CCURT L'UST BRIEFLY HOW YOU BECAME
INVOLVED AND WHAT YOU DID.
A I WAS ASKED BY YOU AT.ID BY THE ATTORNEY
GENERALIS OFFICE IN NORTH CAROLINA TO MAKE A DEMOGRAPHIC
EXAMI].,IATION OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA TO ASCERTAIN
WHERE THE CONCE}.ITRATIONS OF RACIAL MINORITIES WERE
PRESENT AND WHERE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTP.ICTS COULD BE
CONSTRUCTED IN THAT STATE
A DURING THE COURSE OF THAT ACTIVITY WHAT, IF
ANY, CONCLUSION OF VJHAT, IFANYTHING, DID YOU LEARN WITH
RESPECT TO THE COVERED VERSUS NON-COVERED AREAS OF THE
STATE?
A I AM NOT SURE I COULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN
THE COVERED AND NON-COVERED COUNTIES. THERE WERE LARGE
CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK RESIDENTS IN THE MAJOR METROPOLI-
TAN AREAS, MOST OF WHICH WERE IN THE NON-COVERED COUNTIES
THERE WERE ALSO SOI.1E IN COVEFIED COUNTIES.
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PRECISION FEPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FOR THE
OF BLACK RESIDENTS
WAS'LIMITED TO THE
a DrD YOU
NORTH CAROLINA WERE
RIGHTS ACT AND THAT
MOST PART, SIGNIFICANT CONCENTRATION
IN RURAL AREAS OR NON-MAJOR CITIES
COVERED COUNTIES.
LEARN THAT SOME OF
COVERED BY SECTTCN
SOME WERE NOT?
THE COUNTIES IN
5 OF THE VOTING
CERTA I NLY.
A DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN DISCUSSIONS WITH COUN-
SEL AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEES OF THE TWO HOUSES WITH
RESPECT TO THEIR DEALINGS }^JITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND
THE SECTION 5 COVERED COUNTIES?
I DON I T RECALL ANY SPEC I FI C DI SCUSS I ONS t^tI TH
LEGISLATORS WITH REGARD TO THAT SUB.JECT. MY EXAMINATION,
AT LEAST IN THE BEGINNING, WAS FAIRLY LIMITED.
DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE THAT THERE WERE
NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WITH
RESPECT TO THAT ASPECTS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE PLAN THAT
HAD TO DO WITH THE COVERED EOUNTIES?
I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD
BETI./EEN I*U TIME WHICH I STARTED AND THE TIME WHI CH THE
FINAL REDISTRICTING LAWS WERE PASSED THAT THERE WAS
A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF NEGOTIATION, IF YOU CAN STYLE IT
AS NEGOTIATION, BETWEEN THE STATE OFFICIALS, THE LEGISLA-
TORS AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET A
PLAN FOR THE STATE WHICH COULD PASS PRE-CLEARANCE.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a VJERE YOU PRESENT DURING THE TESTIMOI'IY OF DR.
BERNARD GRO F}4AN ?
A I WAS.
A HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY_.STRIKE THAT.
I{HEN DID YOU FI RST RECE IVE THE DATA BASE--OR I F THERE IS
A BETTER TERM, PLEASE USE IT_-THAT DR. GROFMAN BASED HIS
CONCLUSiONS ON IN HIS TESTIMONY?
MS. I.,INNER: COULD I ASK HIM TO BE
SPECiFIC WHETHER HE IS TALKING ABOUT AN EXHIBIT OR SOME-
THING ELSE?
MR. LEONARD: I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE
WITNESS DESCRI BE \^IHAT HE RECEIVED FIRST. AND THEI{ WE
WILL TRY TO IDENTIFY IT MORE SPECIFICALLY AS AN EXHIBIT.
\,UDGE PHILLIPS: ARE WE STILL IN THE
PROCESS OF QUALIFYING THIS I'IITNESS?
' MR. LEONARD: NO, YOUR HONOR' No; wE
ARE NOT. I AM SORRY. I WOULD OFFER DR. HOFELLER AS AI''I
EXPERT ON THE SUB.JECT MATTER AS STATED.
MS. I,IINNER: I THINK THAT THAT IS A
LITTLE BROAD FOR EXPERTISE. THERE ARE I4ANY SUBJECT
MATTERS INVOLVED IN THE CASE
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ON WHAT BASIS WAS DR.
GROFMAI'IQUALIFIEDASANEXPERT?DOYOURECALL?
MS . W I I'.INER : I HAVE THAT WR I TTEN DO}'N '
,JUDGE PHILLIPS: WOULD YOU HAVE ANY
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
OBJECTION TO THE QUALIFICATION OF DR. HOFELLER ON THE
SAME BASIS?
MS. I.JINNER: I OB.JECT TO DR. HOFELLERI
BEING QUALIFIED ON STATISTICAL METHODOLOGY AND GEI.,IERAL
REAPPORTI ONMENT MATTERS.
.JUDGE pHILLIpS: l,lELL, l.lE NEED SOi'1ETHING
FOR THE RECORD.
MR. LEoNARD:
BY I.1R. LEOIJARD:
MR. LEONARD:
REASONS, TF THE COURT PLEASE.
MAY I ASK THE WITNESS?
I OFFER HIM FOR ALL THOSE
A DR. HOFELLER, IS THAT SATISFACTORY TO YOU?
A I I,JOULD THINK THAT I COULD SAY THAT I HAVE HAD
A GREAT AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE IN REDISTRICTING. AND I
HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF THE PROBLEMS INVOLVED
WITH RACE IN REGARD TO REDISTRICTING AND IN TERI,IS OF THE
oNE-t,lAN, ONE-VOTE RULE AND IN TERMS 0F THE USE OF DATA
FOR ELECTORAL ANALYSIS AND THE PREDICTION OF ELECTION
OUTCOMES
I I.,OULD SAY THAT.IF SHE MEANS THE SAME THING
THAT WE ARE IN AGREEMENT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, T.JE T'IILL ACCEPT HIS
QUALIFICATION AS AN EXPERT IN MATTERS OF STATISTICAL
METHODOLOGY, PARTICULARLY IN RELATION TO PROBLEMS OF
LEG I SLATI VE REAPPORTI ONMENT.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A57\
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MS. tlINNER: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO
THAT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I^IELL, HE IS So QUALIFIED.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a - DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE--DrD THE MATERIAL
THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM DR. GROFMAN HAVE EXHIBIT NUMBERS
ON IT OR DOES IT NOh'?
A CERTAINLY; YES.
A COULD YOU TELL THE COURT I,'HEN YOU RECEIVED
THIS MATERIAL THAT YOU HAVE UP ON THE !.,IITNESS TABLE WITH
YOU AND WHAT THE EXHIBIT NUMBERS ARE?
A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN RECITE THE SPECIFIC
EXHiBIT NUMBERS OF ALL THE EXHIBITS THAT DR. GROFMAN
PRODUCED. BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT I F I RST SAI./ THEM V/IIEN
DR. GROFMAN GAVE HIS DEPOSITION HERE IN I4ECKLENBURG.
I BELIEVE IT WAS_-
a (rrurrnPosrNG) wE ARE rN RALETGH.
A I AM SORRY-_IN RALEIGH. I BELIEVE IT WAS A
WEEK AGO LAST FRIDAY WHEN I FIRST SAW THOSE EXHIBITS.
AND I RECEIVED COPIES OF THEM THE NEXT WEEK, ON MONDAY.
A PLEASE IDENTIFY THEM, IF YOU CAN, IF THEY
HAVE EXHIBIT NUI,IBEP.S ON THEM P.UNNING FROI4-_I4AY I APPROACH
THE WITNESS, PLEASE? T''E HAVE GINGLES EXHIBIT 15. I
BELIEVE THAT Tt-iEY START I,/IT!1 13, 14, 15, 16---
.,UDGE pHILLIpS: (tllrrRpOsIt,lc) ttett, MR.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WITNESS, CAN YOU TESTIFY THAT YOU RECEIVED A GROUP
DOCUMENTS THAT YOU NOW HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSIOI.I AT T
TIME THAT YOU INDICATED YOU RECEIVED THEI..1?
THE WITNESS: yES, YOUR HONOR.
. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I,IILL YOU READ FRO!'4
DOCUMENTS WHICH YOU SAY YOU RECEIVED ON THOSE DATES
EXHIBIT NUMBERS WITH I^JHICH THEY ARE MARKED?
OF
HE
THOS E
THE
THE I.JI TNESS :
HUGE PILTJ OF THEM.
YOUR HONOR, THERE I S A
MP.. LEONARD : MAY I SHOW THE WITNESS
THE EXHIBIT LIST, IF THE COURT PLEASE? AND I THINK HE
}..lILL RECOGNIZE WHAT HE RECEIVED FROM THE EXHIBIT LIST.
THE I^II TNESS: YOUR HoNOR, I AM NOT
TRYING TO BE EVASIVE HERE. I RECEIVED ALL THE EXHIBITS
WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE VERY LARGE PRINTOUTS THAT DR.
GROFMAN PRESENTED. OIO I AM SPE;IFICALLY CONCERNED TODAY
WITH EXHIBITS 1](A) THROUGH (E), 14(A) TNNOUEN (D), 15(A)
THROUGH (H), 16(A) rnnOUeH^(F), 17(A) THRoUGH (r), 18(A)
THROUGH (p).
JUDGE PHILLI PS: AND THOSE I^JERE ALL IN THE
MATERIALS THAT YOU RECEIVED AT THE TIME YOU II{DICATED YOU
RECEIVED THE DOCUMENTS FROM DR. GROFMAN?
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.
BY MR. LEONAR.D :
F P. O. eor 2tla:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a
AGO LAST
RECE IVED
NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY SINCE A I'IEE
FRIDAY OR I,JHENEVER IT WAS LAST WEEK THAT YOU
THOSE DOCUMENTS TO REVIEW THEM?
I HAVEA
. J UDGE PH I LL I PS : WHY DON I T I^,E TAKE A
RECESS BEFORE YOU GET INTO THAT? I,,E \,II LL RECESS UI.,tTI L
10:50.
(rne pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT L0:55 A.M., To
RECONVENE AT 10:50 A.M., THIS SAI4E DAY.)
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OR
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:50 A.h
JUDGE PHILLIPS: HAVE WE GoT A QUICK
ESTIMATE OF THE PROJECTED TIME HERE BEFORE WE START?
,MR. LEONARD: IF I AI4 PREPARED AS I
THINK I AI.,t, I THINK DR. HOFELLER'S TESTItIONy hrILL
PROBABLY I{L\I' TAKE US BEYOND THE LUNCH HOUR AND MAYBE
BEFORE ON DIRECT. AND HE IS OUR LAST WITNESS. I DON'T
KNOW IF COUNSEL HAS ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ON REBUTTAL
WITNESSES OR NOT.
MS. VJ I NNER : AS I I NFORI4ED MR. LEONARD
TH I S MORN I NG, I CURRENTLY I NTEND TO CALL TI.JO REBUTTAL
wITNESSES, BOTH OF WHOM I BELIEVE WILL BE l5-t"lINUTE
W III.{ESSES.
.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I,JE
WILL TAKE AN HOUR LUNCH RECESS AND SEE IF },J5 CAN MOVE ON
TOI^/ARD A COMPLETI0I.I HOPEFULLY AROUND MID-AFTERNOON. llE
WILL HAVE A F=W HOUSEKEEPING THINGS TO TAKE CARE OF THEN.
BUT WE !{ONIT IMPOSE ANY ARTIFICIAL BARRiERS CN AIJYBODY.
BUT IF WE COULD MOVE TOVIARD THAT, IT SEEMS TO ME WE COULD
COI4E PRETTY CLOSE TO IT. VJE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO THE
POINT OF TOTAL ABSORPTION.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
(wnE RE UPON,
THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RSSUMED
THE STAND ANID TESTIFIED FURTHER A5 TOTIOWS: )
D I R E C T E X A M I I.I A T I O N 1C:52,q.M.
(RESUMED)
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DR. HOFELLER, YOU APPEAR HERE UNDER SUBPOENA;
DO YOU NOT?
A I DO.
A AND YOU ARE NOT APPEARING HERE IN YOUR OFFI_
CIAL CAPACITY ON BEHALF OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL
C OMM I TTEE ?
A NO; I AM NOT. I AM ON VACATION.
A NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMiNE
THE DATA BASE THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAD
RECE IVED SOMETI ME LAST 'dEEK
FROM DR. GROFMAN ?
MS. t,INNER i .' I OB.JECT. HE DID NOT
TESTIFY HE RECEIVED IT FROI4 DR. GROFMAN.
BY MR. LEONAP.D:
A T,JELL, WHOEVER YOU RECE IVED I T FROM, I T I S DR.
GROFMAN' S MATERIAL. HAVE YOU SATI5FIED YOURSEI-F OF THAT
FACT?
A YES; I HAVE.
A AND IIAVE YOU EXAMINED IT?
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A YES; I HAVE.
a NouJ, You HEARD DR. GROFMAN'S TESTIMONY HERE IN
THE COURTROOM?
A YES; I DID.
a - Do You HAVE AN OPIIIION WI TH RESPECT T0 1.'/IiETHER
OR NOT THE I'IATERIALS TESTIFIED TO BY DR. GROFI{AN AND
RELIED UPON BY DR. GROFMAN WAS SUFFICIENT TO SUPPORT THE
CONCLUSIONS THAT HE DREVJ WITH RESPECT TO SUBSTANTIALLY
SIGNIFICANT R,ACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING AND ELECTIOI'IS IN
NORTH CAROL INA?
A I DO.
a U,HAT IS THAT OPINION?
A T4Y OPINION IS THAT THE MATERIALS ARE NOT
COMPLETE ENOUGH TO DRAW THAT CONCLUSION.
a oN WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR OPINION?
A TO BEGIN W.ITH, DR- enormal'r HAS PRESENTED A
RATHER EXTENSIVE COI4PUTER ANALYSIS OF SOME VOTING STATIS-
TICS AND REGISTRATION STATISTICS IN NORTH CAROLINA WHICH
PERTAIN TO TWO DIFFERENT EXAMINATIONS. FIRST IS THE
EXTREME CASE AI',IALYSI S. AND SECOND I S HI S REGRESS I ON
ANALYS I 5 .
IHAVESoMEVERYGREATMISGIVINGSABoUTTHE
EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, IN THAT THE NUMBER OF EXTREME CASE
PRECINCTS IN SOME OF THE AREAS IS EXTREMELY SMALL' AND
I DO}.II T REALLY BEL I EVE THAT YOU CAI.'I I''IAKE VAL I D PRO'JECTI
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN THE TOTAL ELECT/-)'IATE
BASED UPON THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN EXTREME CASE PRE-
C INCTS. I THINK THIS WOULD BE TRUE IN BOTH BLACK AND
t^/HITE PRECINCTS IN WHICH, FOR INSTANCE, IF A SMALL I\IUMBER
OF WHITES.qIPEAR IN THE EXTREME CASE PRECII..ICTS, THOSE
l^,llITES MIGHT HAVE SOCIOECONOMIC FACTORS '/HI Cl-{ DI FFER
CONSIDERABLY FROM THOSE OF I,/HITES IN MIXED PRECINC'I S.
THE SAME WOULD BE TRUE FOR BLACKS.
SO I THINK THAT TO RELY TOTALLY ON EXTREME
CASE DATA WOULD BE ERRONEOUS. I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT DR.
GROFMAN DID. BUT TO RELY ON THAT WOULD BE ERRONEOUS.
I THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME FURTHER PROBLEMS
II.I TERMS OF THE REGRESSION MODEL IN THAT THERE IS NO
DATA AVAILABLE, FOR INSTANCE, OhI THE NUMBER OF BLACKS
AND THE NUMBER OF WHITES WHO TURNED OUT TO VOTE IN MIXED
PREC i NCTS. AI.JD THERE I S NO REAL *'O'O* WHY ONE SHOULD
RELY UPON THE FACT THAT THAT TURNOUT MIGHT,BE AS IT WAS
I N THE EXTREME CASE PREC I NCT.S.
A YES. TELL THE COURT WHAT
GOING TO REFER TO, IF ANY.
HERE, AT LEAST--
THE MODEL I.EAD TO
AN EXAMPLE THERE.
EXHIBITS YOU ARE
A I I,IOULD LIKE TO REFER TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 1I+(B).
EXHI BIT 14(B) TS A SUMMA]'ION OF THE HOUSE GENERAL
I ALSO HAVE CASES_-A CASE
\^JHICH I DOUBT THAT THE MATHEMATICS OF
BEL I EVABLE CONCLUS I OI.JS , lF I CAN DRAf.l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ELECTIoN Il'l NovEMBER oF 1980 FoR MECKLENBURG couNTy.
IF I UNDERSTAND DR. GROFMANIS CALCULATIONS FP.OM HIS
REGRESSION MODEL, ON PAGE 2 LOOKING AT COLUMN t, 2,
5-*COtUMN 5--I NOTE THAT THREE CANDIDATES RECEI\/ED
PE\CENT OF. THE WHITE VOTE.
NOW, COMMONLY, IF YOU RECEIVE A PERCENTACE OR
A DECI;YAL PERCENTAGE OF A CERTAIN VOTE AND YOU KNOW I,JHAT
THE VOTE IS YOU RT:CEIVED, IF YOU DIVIDE THE PERCENTAGE
BACK INTO THE NUMBER OF VOTES YOU SHOULD GET THE TOTAL
NUMBER OF VOTES IN THE POPULATION.
AND HE HAS HERE NUMBERS RANGING FROM OR VLTI.[:)
RANGING FROM 34,429 ON CANDIDATE t2 P.ECEIVING 36 PERCENT
OF THE WHITE VOTE AND ANOTHER CANDIDATE, CANDIDATE 14,
RECEIVING 41,496 pERCENT--I AM SORRy--41,496 VOTES AND Tt
SAME 36 PERCENT OF THE VOTE.
a Nol{, WHEN you REFER rO rne WHITE VOTE, yOU
ARE POINTING TO THE FACT THAT THOSE CANDIDATES RECEIVED
NO BLACK VOTES AT ALL; IS T}IAT CORRECT?
THAT I S CORRECT. OTHERWISE, IT TJOULD BE VERy
DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN THE MIX OF THE VOTES. WE ALSO
HAVE A SITUATION HERE IN WHICH A CANDIDATE RECEIVING
SUPPOSEDLY ACCORDING TO THE MODEL ]6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE
RECEIVED 34,429 VOTES. Tr-tAT IS CANDIDATF_ t2. AND A
CANDIDATE IIHO IS PURPORTED TO RECEIVE ]O PERCENT OF THE
voTE RECEIVED 37,610 VOT5S.
3, 4,
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457]'
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2al6
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a BEFORE yOU GO FURTHER, WHEN yOU DO THE
MATHEMATICS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU AS TO THE RANGE OF
THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THE LOWEST TO THE HIGHEST WHO
WOULD HAVE VOTED IN THAT ELECTION BASED ON THE REGRESSION
ANALYS I S ?
A WELL, I DID SOME CALCULATIONS HERE. AND I
DECIDED THAT BASED UPON THE DATA WHICH HE HAS PRESENTED,
THE TURNOUT FOR THE HOUSE ELECTION OR THE ELECTION IN
GENERAL COULD HAVE RANGED ANYWHERE FROM 35r963 TO t06,23
NOW, WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THAT
THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS IN USING REGRESSIOI.I TND MAKING
SURE THAT THE RESULISOF THE REGRESSION MATCH BACK TO THE
REALITY OF THE DATA.
a |{HAT ELSE DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THE PROPORTION
OF WHITE VOTES TO THE CANDIDATES FROM THAT EXHIBIT?
A WELL, AT LEAST FROM THAT EXHIBIT, IF YOU WANT
T'O YOU CAN CALCULATE IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE THE
ACTUAL NUMBER OF BLACK VOTI:RS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE
ELECTION FROM CANDIDATE LINES 8 AND 9. I AM NOT SURE
WHETI-IER THAT IS TERRIBLY RELEVANT, THOUGH.
A ANYTHING ELSE YOU I.'ANT TO CONCLUDE FROM THAT
EXHIBIT?
A NO.
A WHAT ELSE DID YOU CONCLUDE UPON REVIEW OF THE
DATA ?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN MY EXPERIENCE OF VOTING BEHAVIOR, THERE
IS NO WAY TO VALIDLY ASSUME THAT ONE POPULATION VOTES
HOMOGENEOUSLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE RANGE OR ANOTHER
POPULATION. AND WE HAVE A SITUATION I]ERi IN NORTH
CAROLINA.UNLIKE MANY OTHER SITUATIONS IN I,JHICH THESE
REGRESSIONS MAY HAVE BEEN DONE I^'I-IERE WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE
OF COUNTIES AND A WIDE RANGE OF CITIES.
AND SO IN LAY TERMS, THE RULES BY WHICH THESE
VOTERS MAY BE OPERATING MAY BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. ONE
WOULD FIND IN ANY ELECTION ANALYSIS THAT A DETERMINATION
OF THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF WHITES THAT CROSSED OVER. AND
VOTED FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE AND THE DETERMINATION OF THE
NUMBER OF BLACKS WHO MIGHT HAVE CROSSED OVER AND VOTED
FOR THE WHITE CANDIDATE CAIIINOT BE BASED UPON THE ASSUMP-
TION THAT ALL THE BLACKS VOTED BLACK AND ALL THE I.'HITES
VOTED WHITE.
ALL YOU CAl.l SHOW, PERHAPS, HERE IS YOUR
ESTII4ATED NET EFFECT OF TldE ELECTION, l'lOT THE BEHAVIOR
OF INDIVIDUAL VOTERS.
AI.IOTHER THiNG: IF I HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN
TRYING TO GA'THER DATA TO PROVE THE CASE, I WOULD HAVE
MUCH PREFERRED--FOR INSTANCE, IN A CITY LIKE MECKLENBURG.
TO GO BACK IN AND FIND OUT I,JHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBERS OF
WHITES AND BLACK VOTERS WERE !'II-{O CAI4E TO THE POLLS AND
VOTED. I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.36],9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WAY TO TRY AND DETERMINE WHAT MIGHT HAVE GONE ON IN THA
ELECTION.
A IS THAT INFORMATION AVAILABLE FROM THE VOTING
RECORDS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A -TO THE BEST OF MY BELIEF, IT IS.
A WHAT ELSE DID YOU OBSERVE?
A DR. GROFMAN APPEARS TO GIVE A VERY GREAT
WEIGHT TO THE CORRELATION BETWEEN TWO VARIABLES, WHERE
ONE VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF BLACK REGISTRATIOI.I AI.ID
THE OTHER VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF PERFORMANCE BY THE
BLACK CANDIDA HS.
HE WENIT THROUGH THE DATA. AND HE LISTED OUT
THAT THERE WERE CORRELATION COEFFICIENTS THAT WEP.E
EXTREMELY HIGH. AND THERE WERE SIGNIFICANCES THAT WERE
EXTREMELY LOW, WHICH MADE THEM VERY GOOD. AND I DONIT
ARGUE THAT THOSE CORRELATIONS AND SIGNIFICANCE REPRESENT
THE RELATIONSHIP OF THOSE TWO VARIBLES.
I I,JOULD JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT MY OPINION
IS THAT ONE WOULD FIND THAT SORT OF CORRELATION BETWEEN
WHITE AND BLACK VOTING BEHAVIOR IN OTHER RACES WHERE
WHITES AND BLACKS WERE CANDIDATES AND IN OTHER RACES IN
WHICH OTHER ISSUES WERE AT STAKE_-THAT THE PRESENCE OF
HIGH DEGREE OF CORRELATI,ON AND HIGH SIGNIFICA.NCE DOES NOT
REAI.LY PROVE THE CAUSALITY OF HIS .JUDGMENT THAT THERE I5
S I GI.II F I CANT RAC IALLY POLAR I ZED BLOC VOT I NG .
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX. ARIZONA
IT IS VERY ACADE14ICALLY EXCITII..IG TO HAVE
THAT CORRELATE {;O WELL. BUT I AM NOT SURE THAT IT WOULD
BE FAIR TO DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT IT PROVES HIS POINT,
ESPECIALLY WHEN EVIDENCE IS NOT PRESENTED AS TO WHETHER
OR NOT THOSE KINDS OF VOTING BEHAVIORS ARE PRESENT ANY_
WHERE ELSE IN THE STATE OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE NATION.
WHAT OTHER OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE?
AGAIN, IN MY OPINION I THINK THAT IT IS VERY
DIFFICULT FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN ELECTORAL ANALYSIS TO
USE JUST THE RESULTS OF VOTES AS A MODEL FOR DETERMINING
I^.|HAT HAPPENED I N AN ELECT I ON. THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER
oF FACTORS--SOME OF WHI CH ,qRE QUANT I FIABLE, SOME OF WHI CH
AR.E NON_QUANTIFIABLE--WHICH ARE PRESENT IN ANY ELECTION
IN ANY GIVEN YEAR, SUCH AS THE POSITIONS OF THE CANDIDATI:
ON ISSUES. AFTER ALL, ELECTIONS ARE DECIDED BY ISSUES.
I THINK IT WOULD BE NAIVE TO ASSUME THAT EVERY
ELECTION IS DECIDED UPON THE RACE OF THE CANDIDATE.
FINANCING IS AN ISSUE. THE GENERAL APPROVAL RATING OF
THE CANDIDATE IS AN ISSUE. THE CANDIDATETS SKILL AS A
CANDIDATE AND THE SKILL OF THE PERSONS WHO ARE MANAGING
HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN ARE IMPORTANT. NAI'IE I.D. IS IMPOR-
TANT. BALLOT POSITION IS IMPORTANT. THE GENERAL ATMOS-
PHERE IN THAT CAMPAIGN YEAR IS IT1PORTANT. TII[ SAME
CHARACTERISTICS FOR THE OTHER CANDIDATES ARE ALSO
I MPORTANT.
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SO I GUESS WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS
THAT THE CORRELATION AI'IALYSIS AND THE STATISTICAL SIGNI_
FICANCE AND ALL THAT DATA IN THE PRINTOUTS IS ONLY ONE
FACTOR IN TRYING TO LEAD TO AN EVALUATION OF THE ELECTIO
AND THEREFO.RE, ONE SHOULD NOT NECESSARILY GIVE THE
WEIGHT THAT ONE MIGHT FEEL ON THE CORRELATION OVER TO THE
OTHER FACTORS WHEN SOMEBODY IS MAKING A DETERMINATION.
A NOW, SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION
OF POSITION ON THE BALLOT, DID YOU LOOK AT A MECKLENBURG
COUNTY ELECTION WHERE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A FACTOR?
A I DID.
a TELL THE COURT THE BAC!'.GROU|{D FOR THAT, !,JHy
YOU LOOKED AT IT AND l^rHAT YOU CONCLUDE FROM IT.
A WELL, IN THE i9B2 HOUSE RACE, CANDIDATE
RICHARDSON, WHO VJAS BLACK, LOST BY 250 VOTES.
A THIS IS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?
A THIS WAS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION. I I.JAS
INTERESTED AS TO WHY THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED. ONE CONCLU_
SION I DREW FROM LOOKING AT THE DATA WAS THAT THERE \,JAS A
DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF VOTES RECEIVED BY
RICHARDSON IN HIGHLY BLACK PRECINCTS AS FP.CM BERRY, WHO
WAS THE OTHER BLACK CANDIDATE. AND THAT DIFFERENCE
EXCEEDED THE DIFFERENCE IN THE VOTE.
I.N ADDITION TO THAT, I WAS INTERESTED--AS I A
IN ALL ELECTIONS--ON BALLOT PLACEI1ENT, l^IHICH IS VERY
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AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IMPORTAI{T. A LOT OF LEGISLATURES HAVE MODI FIED ELECTIO
LAWS THROUGHOUT THE STATES OV5R THE YEARS TO ROTATE THE
BALLOT IN ORDER TO GIVE FAIRNESS TO THAT FACTOR.
THE INFORMATION THAT I WAS GIVEN IS THAT NORTH
CAROLINA CALLS FOR ROTATION ON THE PRIT,IARY BALLOT BUT
DOES NOT CALL FOR ROTATION ON THE GENERAL BALLOT.
MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO THE }IEARSAY
AND MOVE TO STRIKE IT UNLESS HE SAYS WHERE HE GOT IT FROM
OR WHAT THE BASIS OF THAT KNOWLEDGE IS.
MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO GO
INTO THAT, IF THE COURT WANTS ME TO.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I THINK YOU BETTER
QUALIFY HIM ON THE BASIS OF HIS KNOWLEDGE.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A NOW, I^IITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY
OF TJALLOT PLACEMENT AS. BETWEEN PRIMARY AND GENERAL
ELECTIONS, }JHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU MAKE TO DETERMINE
WHAT THE NORTH CAROLINA LAW.WAS OI.I THAT SUB.JECT?
A I REQUESTED THnr JIM I^'ALLACE FROM THE ATTORNEY
GENERALIS OFFICE LOOK AT THE LAW AND FIND OUT WHAT THE
LAW WAS WITH REGARD TO THE BALLOT. AND HE DID SO. AND
MY CONCLUSION IS BASED UPON THE INFORMATION WHICH HE GAVE
TO ME.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: CANIT }^.lE JUDICIALLY
NOT ICE_--
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MS . I^J I NNER : ( I nrrn Pos i NG ) I 'i^:r)u Lt)
L I KE TO BE TOLD I^JHAT THE STATUTE I S, S INCE I T DOES NOT
COMPORT WITH MY KNOI^/LEDGE OF WHAT THE LAW IS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DOESN'T THE COURT
SIMPLY SAY-THAT WE I"JILL TAKE JUt.)ICIAL NOTICE oF I^,IHAT THE
LAW IS? AND IF IT IS AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE DOCTOR TIJINKS
IT IS, WE }^IILL DISREGARD ANYTHING HE SAYS ABOUT IT.
MS. WINNER:
BY MR. LEONARD:
THAT IS FiNE.
a WHAT DrD MR. WALLACE TELL yOU t{AS THE PROCE-
DURE IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A IT WAS AS I STATED--THAT THERE I,JAS ROTATION
IN THE PRIMARY. AND THERE T.JA5 ALPHABETIC POSITIONING IN
THE GENERAL ELECTION.
A WHAT T,IAS THE VOTE D I FFERENT I AL BY WH I CH MR .
RICHARDSON FAI LED TO BE F:LECTED I; THE GENERAL ELECTIOT.I?
A 250 VOTES.
A WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL VOTE WAS THAT?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS ROUGHLY .3 OF 1 PERCENT_-.29
SPECI FICALUY.
A WHERE DID YOU FIND MR. RICHARDSON TO BE ON THE
BALLOT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IN MECKLEI.JBURG COUNTY IN
r982?
A LAST.
A DR. HOFELLER, FROI4 YOUR EXPERIENCE IN ELECTI
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THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, Do YoU HAVE AN oPII'IIoN AS
TO WHETHER OR NOT MR. RICHARDSONIS PLACEMENT ON THE BALLO
IN THAT ELECTION WAS A SIGNIFICAI,IT FACTOR IN HIS DEFEAT?
A IN MY OPINION, I THINK IT COULD BE l^JE IG|IED AS
A S I GN I FI CAI)JT FACTOR.
a WHAT I\,AS THE PEIICENTAGE OF VOTES IN |4ECKLEN_
BURG COUNTY IN THAT ELECTION THAT YOU FOUND VTAS THE
SUBJECT OF DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS?
A I AM SORRY. I WOULD HAVE TO G:T THE EXHIBIT
OUT HERE. ARE YOU REFERRING TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 14(D)?
YES?
A COULD YOU STATE THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE?
A WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT WAS
ANALYZED IN THE GROFMAN ANALYSIS?
A I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.
a WHEN you Loo-KED AT THE EXHIBIT, TIHAT WAS THE
PERCENTAGE OF TItE ACTUAL VOTE CAST THAT WAS THE DATA BASE
THAT DR. GROFMAN USED TO COMEITO HIS CONCLUSION?
A I UNDERSTAND NOW. CANDIDATE 1, BERRY,
RECEIVED 92 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE ACCORDING TO THE
REGRESSION ESTIMATE, 86 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREME CASE
HE RECEIVED 42 PERCENT OF THE \.'HITE VOTE ACCORDING TO
REGRESSION AND 43 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREII4E ESTIMATE.
RICHARDSON HAD SIMILAR FIGURES OF 88 AND 82
FOR THE BLACK VOTE AND 29 AND 29 FOR THE !',HITE VOTE.
F P. O. lor 2A16
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876-4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DID YOU MAKE AN ANA'/SIS OF GINGLES EXHIBITS
16(E) AND 16(F)?
A I I.,|CULD LIKE, IF I COULD BE ALLOh'ED TO, TO
MAKE ONE FURTHER COMMENT ON THIS EXHIBIT.
A AS LONG AS YOU HAVE IT IN FRONT OF YOU, PLEASE
DO.
MS. WINNER: I I)B.JgCT TO T!IE ',ITNESS
TESTIFYING WITHOUT A QUESTION.
MR. LEONARD: WE ARE GOII..IG TO GO THRO
EACH ONE OF THESE EXHIBITS, IF THE COURT PLEASE.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONTT YOU ASK HIM IF
HE HAS ANY FURTHER CONCLUSIONS ON 14(D)?
BY MR. LEONARD:
a ARE YOU STILL ON 14(B), DR. HOFELLER?
A 14(D).
A WITH RESP.ECT TO GIN6LES EXHI BIT 14(D), WHAT
OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE WITH RESPECT TO THAT IN YOUR
ANALYS I S OF DI?. GROFMAN I S, TE ST I MONY ?
A I WOULD .JUST LIKE TO ADD THAT DR. GROFMAN HAS
PRESENTED Tt^,O WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE BLACK AND WHI TE
VOTE IN THESE ELECTIONS. OI.IE OF THEM IS THE PERCET\ITAGE
OF ALL OF THE VOTES THAT WERE CAST FOR ALL OF THE CANDI-
DATES IN THESE MULTIPLE CANDIDATE ELECTIONS IN THE I'1ULTI-
MEI'4BER DISTRICTS. THAT IS NOT OII THIS EXHIBIT. THAT IS
oN ANOTHER EXHIBIT, I B=l-lEVE.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
HE PRESENTS ON THIS EXHIBIT THE PERCENTAGE
OF THE PERSONS WHO CAST BALLOTS IN THE ELECTION WHO VOTED
FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE OR THE WHITE CAI,IDIDATE. THIS HAS
SOME DEGREE OF ERROR IN IT, IN THAT THERE IS A PRESUMPTI
HERE THAT THE SAME NUI.IBER OF VOTERS WHO WENT TO THE POLLS
AND DROPPED A BALLOT IN THE BALLOT BOX MARKED ANYBODY
IN THIS HOUSE ELECTIOII,I. THERE IS A FACTOR CALLED RoLL-
OR VOTER FATIGUE OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, IN
WHICH AS YOU GO DOWN THE BALLOT THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR
PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE. THAT IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS PRESENT
IN ALMOST EVERY ELECTION.
BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, ,qLSO IT IS IMPORTANT TO
NOTE AND I THINK IT WOULD BE ILLUSTRATIVE TO NOTE THAT
PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE THE CANDIDATE WHO RECEIVED THE
HIGHEST NUMBER OF VOTES IN THIS ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE
ACCORDI NG TO H I S REGRESS I ON I'4ODEL, 58 PERCENT OF THE VOTE
WHEN COMP,qRED TO THE AMOUNT OF VOTE THAT BERRY, FOR
INSTANCE, RECEIVED--HE GOr -72.4 PERCENT AS MUCH SUPPORT
AS CANDIDATE II+.
IT IS SORT OF LIKE TAKING A VOTER SURVEY WHERE
YOU WOULD SAY--AND PARDON ME FOR THE EXAMPLE--PRESIDENT
REAGAN NOW IS 42 PERCENT IN A HEAD-TO-HEAD POLL WITH
MONDALE, FOR iNSTANCE--AND THAT IS NOT AN El'IDORSEMENT--
BEING ]8 PERCENT.
NO\,J, I T I SI.I I T AS I MPORTANT NEARLY TO SAY THAT
F 2. O.8d 2ala
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457],
PHOENIX ARIZONA
REAGAN GOT 42 PERCENT BUT AS TO SAY THAT REAGAN LED
MONDALE BY I+ PERCENT. THERE IS A PRESUMPTIoN THAT THAT
UNACCOUNTED FOR 20 PERCENT I S GO I NG TO DO SOMETI-1ING WHEN
THEY ACTUALLY COME AND CAST THEIR BALLOTS.
SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU MIGHT ALSO
WANT TO LOOK AT THIS DATA IN AI{OTHER I^IAY TO SAY WHAT
PERCENTAGE DID THE BLACK CANDIDATE RECEIVE IN RELATION-
SHIP TO THE PERCENTAGE THAT THE HIGHEST RANKING WHITE
CANDIDATE RECEIVED. THIS IS ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT TH
DATA.
A DID YOU, AS A MATTIR OF FACT, MAKE SOME COMPU-
TATIONS FOR THE PROPORTION OF WHITE VOTES THAT THESE
VARIOUS CANDIDATES RECEIVED FROM THE DATA ON GiNGLES
EXHIBIT I4(D)?
A I DID.
A WHAT PERCENTAGE USING iNO' METHODOLOGY DID THE
BLACK CANDIDATE BERRY, CANDIDATE NUMBER I, RECEIVi:?
A 72.4.
A AND WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE I,IHITE VOTE DID
CANDIDATE NUMBER 8, CANDIDATE RICHARDSON, RECEIVE OF THE
I^/H I TE VOT E ?
A 50.
A NOI.,, VJITH RESPECT TO THAT EXHI BIT, DID YOU
DETERMINE HO'/I MANY EXTREME CASES WERE REPRESEI'JTED BY DR.
GROFMANIS ANALYSIS?
F P. O. lor 2alfi
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAtEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A TO THE BEST OF MY KI.JOWLEDGE, THAT WAS--I
BELIEVE THREE OR FOUR PRECINCTS AMOUNTED TO ROUGHLY 5
PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS.
a DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO
WHETHER OR NOT AN ANALYSIS WHICH REPRESENTS TVJO OR THREE
PRECINCTS AND 5 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS IS STATISTI-
CALLY SIGNIFICANT?
A I CERTAINLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD DE-
FEND THE POS I T I ON THAT I T I^'OULD BE REPRESENTAT I VE OF HOW
THAT TOTAL POPULATION WOULD BEHAVE.
a NOW, I.JOULD yOU REFER--LET ME ASK yOU: yOU
TESTIFIED TO GINGLES EXHIBITS 1'+(B) RruO (D). DO YOU HAVE
ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO THOSE EXHIBITS?
NO; I DONTT.
A ALL RIGHT.
16(E) aruo 16(F) ANO ASK
II IN EACH OF THOSE TWO
TO FIND THOSE?
I TAKE
'OY
TO GINGLES EXHIBITS
YOU SPECIFICALLY TO TURN TO PAGE
EXHIBITS. HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE
NOT YET. I HAVE.
WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM AN ANAL'TSI S OF
THOSE TWO EXHIBITS?
A WELL, I AM SORRY. AND IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE
FIR.ST PAGE, YOU WILL NOTE UNLESS I READ INCORRECTLY THAT
THEY ARE BOI r-l l-t'lE NOVEMBER I 82 GENERAL ELECT I ON. ANt)
THEY ARE INDEiD THE SAME ELECTION.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
A AND IN I^JHAT COUNTY?
A I N DURHAI4 COUNTY. AI.{D I SEE HERE AN EST I MATE
OF THE ESTII.IATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF BLACK VOTERS
AND THE ESTIMATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF WHITE VOTERS
IN ONE DOCUMENT OF 56 FOR THE BLACK, 4g FOR THE VIHITE.
A LETIS IDENTIFY THE DOCUMENT. WHAT IS IT?
A THAT IS (E)_-GINGLES EXHII}IT 16(E).
A ALL RIGHT.
A IT STATES THE B!-ACK VOTER TURNOUT AS 55 PER-
CENT AND THE WHITE VOTER TURNOUT AS 49 PERCENT. AND
GINGLES EXHIBIT 16(T) TSTIMATES THE BLACK TURNOUT AT 4B
PERCENT AND THE WH I TE TURNOUT AT I+5 PERCENT.
NOW, IF MY UNDERSTANDING OF ELECTIONS IS
CORRECT, THE SAITE GROUP OF PEOPLE CAST THE SAME BALLOTS
FOR THE SAME OFFI CES. AND THEREFORE, THOSE F I GUiIES OUGHT
TO BE THE SAME; OR I AM NOT CLEAR ON EXACTLY WHAT THIS
ANALYSi S MEANS.
a so rHAT GINGLES^EXHIBIT 16(E) WrrH RESPECT TO
REGRESSION ESTIMATES FOR THE BLACK VOTERS AI.ID WT{ITE
VOTERS \.JAS 53 PERCENT AND 47 PERCENT RESPECTIVELY?
A IT IS.
A AND THEN THE CONDESCRIPTIVE OR EXTREME CASb
ANALYSIS ESTIMATE IS 56 AND '+9 RE5?ECTIVELY?
A IT IS.
a AND OrJ EXHrBrr 16(F), YOUR POINT IS THAT THOSE
A P. O. Bd 2tlN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PERCENTAGES ARE DI FFERENT OR LOWER OR BOTH?
A I^,ELL, THEY ARE BOTH LOT^,ER AND D I FFERENT. THE
ONE POINT ABOUT THEM, PERHAPS, IS THAT THEY RANK THE
RACES THE SAME ON TURNOUT ON THE TWO EXHIBITS.
A WHAT DO YOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT?
A WELL, I CONCLUDE FROM THAT THAT EITHER THERE
IS AN AMBIGUITY ON THE DOCUMENTS AS TO WHAT THESE
PARTI CULAR FI GURES MEAN--MY UNDERSTAI.IDI NG THAT TURNOUT
IS THE NUMBER OF REGISTERED VOTERS WHO COME TO THE POLLS-
AI']) A LOT OF TESTII4ONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THIS BASIS oN
FI GURES SUCH AS THESEi OR THE DATA ARE S IMPLY ,'^IRONG.
a ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID yOU EXAt'lINE GINGLES
EXHIBIT 1](K)? EXCUSE ME. DID YOU HAVE AI'IY OTHER
OBSERVATIONS I.'ITH RESPECT TO_--
A (IruTTRPOSING) I .'UST VJANT TO CLARIFY U'HAT I
AM SAYING, IT I'1AY WELL BE--_
a (tNrenPosING) coulD You usE THE BLACKBoARD?
WOULD THAT HELP?
A NO. NO. I DONIT NEED THE BLACKBOARD. ON
TH|ISE TWO EXHIBITS, IT MAY WI:LL BE THAT THAT FIGURE
REPRESENTS THE TURNOUT FOR THAT RACE--FOR THE HOUSE RACE
AND FOR THE SENATE RACE. I AM NOT SURE. BUT IT DOESNIT
REPRESENT THE POTENTIAL NUMBERS OF BLACK AND WHITE
VOTERS '/,JHO CAME TO THE POLLS OR THE TURNOUT OF THE
POTENTIAL NUMBER OF REGISTERED BLACK AND WHITE VOTERS WH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
COULD HAVE COME TO THE POLLS.
AND SINCI: TURNOUT IS GOING To BE AT ISSUE HERE
I THINK THAT THESE FIGURES ARE SOT1EWHAT AMBIGUOUS. AND
IT SHOULD BE CLARIFIED AS TO I^IHAT THEY ARE.
A ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THOSE EXHIBITS?
A NO.
a Now, vJouLD you Go, eLEASE, TO EXHI B IT lr(K)__
rfie MECKLENBURG ELECTToN FoR THE sENATE rN 1982?
A YES.
a Do you NEED TO COMPARE THAT WrTH 13(M) eNO (O)
h,H ICH I BELIEVE ALL RELATE TO THE SAME ELECTION? WHAT
DID YOU DETERMINE FROM YOUR EXAMINATION OF THOSE EXHIBIT
A GIIIGLES EXHIBITS 13(K) Ri.IO 1](M) ARE, AS I
UNDERSTAND THEM, A SUBSET OF 1](O). IT IS REALLY ONE
ELECTION EXAMINATION WITH A SUBDIVISION OF THE ELECTORATE
THE INTERESTING POINT.TO NOTE N'*' PERHAPS_-AND I DONIT
THINK IT IS TOO GREATLY SIGNIFICANT_-IS THAT THE PERCEN-
TAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK IN CABARRUS COUNTY WAS
37 PERCENT. AND THE PERCENTAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK
IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IS 3I PERCENT. THERE IS SOME
INFERENCE, PERHAPS, IN PREVIOUS I'ESTIMONY THAT CABARRUS
COUNTY TOTALLY REJECTED POLK; OF HIS REJECTION BY
CABARRUS COUNTY OR HIS PLACEMENT IN CABARRUS COUNTY COST
HII'1 THE ELECTION.
A POLK IJAS THE BLACK CA}IDIDATE IN THE NOVEMBER
A P. O. tor irardt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a57 1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
I 82 SENATE GENERAL ELSCTION Itt POLK AND CABARRUS
COUNTIES?
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND HE RAN_-HE GOT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE
BLACK VOTE IN CABARRUS? IS IT BLACK OR WHITE VOTE?
A THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE !^IHITE VOTE IN
CABARRUS COUNTY THAN HE DID IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY.
DR. HOFELLER, IN DR. GROFMANIS DIRECT TESTI-
MONY HE MADE SOME ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT THERE HAD BEEN
THREE BLACK PEOPLE I^IHO HAD BEEN APPOI NTED TO THE LEG I S-
LATURE. AND WHEN THEY SOUGHT RE-ELECTION, THEY WERE
DEFEATED. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION I,IITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNI
FIC,{NCE OF THAT FACT WITH RESPECT TO R,qCIALLY POLARIZED
VOTING OR BLOC VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA?
WELL, I THINK PERHAPS THE SIGNIFICANT FIGURE_-
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HJS STATEMENT HERE IS THAT HE STATED
THAT THERE WERE, I BELIEVE, THREE API]OINTED BLACKS WHO
SOUGHT RE-ELECT ION AS APPOTNTED INCUMBE}.ITS. AND THEY ALL
LOST. AND THEREFORE, ONE CAN DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT
APPOINTED BLACK I\:CUMBENTS LOSE OR ARE VERY LIKELY TO
LOSE IN IICR.TH C\i]OLINA.
AT Tl'{E SAME TII{E, !-{E IS HAPPY TO SAY THAT
BECAUSE TI:: FACT T!.]AT NO BLACK INCUMBENT I^/HO 1^IAS ELECTED
HAC, ['/:R L')ST I^'HEN !1E SEEKS A:-ELECT ION HAS ABSOI-tJTELY NO
BEA?.:NG ON THE PROsAIJI LITY OF A BLACK WHO I S AN INCUIUBENT
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BEING RE-ELECTID. i DONIT THINK YOU CAN PLAY THE
STATISTICAL GAME BOTH WAYS. IF YOU ARE GOING To Wt:IGH
PAST OCCURRENCE IN ONE CASE, YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY A
SUCCESS BY WEIGHTING IT IN ANOTHER OCCURRENCE.
A DID YOU FIND INSTANCES WHICH--EXCUSE ME. LET
ME WITHDRAI^/ THAT. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE GROFMAN DATA To
DETERMINE_-I AM SORRY. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE DATA I,JITH
RESPECT TO THESE VARIOUS ELECTIONS I,/ITH RESPECT TO HI S
CONCLUSIONS VERSUS THE CONCLUSIONS YOU MIGHT COME TO FROM
ANALYZING THOSE ELECTIONS?
A YES.
a wFrp.T DID YOU CONCLUDE?
A I CONCLUDED THAT THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT
EVIDENCE PRESENTED, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE STATISTICAL
DATA AND IN TERMS OF THE OTHER EVIDENCE PRESENTED, TO
SUPPORT A CONCLUSION ]HAT THERE
''
A VIOLATION OF SECTION
2 IN THAT THERE IS SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZED BLOC
VOTING.
A WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSIQN ON?
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I AM SORRY.
I HAVE LOST SOMETHIt.{G. I THOUGHT HE WAS TESTIFYING ABOUT
APPOINTIVE INCUMBENTS VERSUS ELECTED INCUMBENTS. HAVE
YOU MOVED ON?
MR. LEONARD: YES.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I UNDERSTOOD THAT WE HAD
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
GOT OFF ON ANOTHER QUESTION, MORE OR LESS.
MS. WINNER: I APOLOGIZE. COULD I
ASK THAT YOU TELL ME THE QUESTION ONCE AGAIN SO I CAN
CATCH UP WITH THE TESTIMONY?
MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO
RESTATE I T.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WSULD YoU Do THAT,
couNSEL, FOR MS. WINNER'S BENEFIT?
MS. WINNER:
BY , MR. I-EONARD:
I APPRECIATE THAT.
a AS you ANALYZED THE ELECTTONS THAT DR. GROI-|IAN
TESTIFIED TO, DID YOU COME TO DIFFERI}IG CONCLUSIONS THAN
HE DID WITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNIFICANCE--AND PARTICUL,qRLY
THE SIGNIFICANCE AS IT HAS TO DO WITH RACIALLY OR VIITH
SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN
ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A I DID
a wouLD you EXPLALN TO THE COURT t.'Hy yOU CAME TO
A D I FFERENT CONCLUS I ON--FI RST OF ALL, I^JHAT CONCLUS I ON
DID YOU COME TO?
A I CAI4E TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IN MY OPINION
THE DATA DOES NOT SUPPORT A CONCLUSION OF SIGNIFICANT
RACIAL POLARIZED BLOC VOTING.
A YOU ALMOST SAID SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT
RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 1
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
\
MS. I,'/INNER:
WORDS I N THE MOUTH OF THE
MR. LEONARD:
BE CONSISTENT FOR THE BENEF
NOT USING DIFFERING---
JUDGE PHI LL I PS :
I OBJECT TO HIS PUTTING
WITNESS.
I AM HOPING THAT WE CAN
IT OF THE COURT SO THAT WE ARE
(IrurrRPoSING) I UIIDER-
STAND THAT COUI.,ISEL ATTEMPTED TO REPEAT THE TESTTMONY OF
DR. GROFMAN THAT HE DID ON THE BASIS OF THIS DATA CON-
CLUDE THAT THERE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY---
MR. LEONARD: (TrurrRpoSING) SIGNIFI-
CANT RACIALLY POLARiT.ED VOTING IN ELECTIONS.
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I REALLY DO
NOT MEAN TO BE GETTING PICKY. IN THE DEPOSITION OF DR.
HOFELLER, HE WAS USING SOME DIFFERENT TERMINOLOGY THAN
GROFMAN AND TO MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS. AND SO I SIMPLY
WANT TO BE CLEAR WHETHER HE IS USTruE DR. GROFI4AN'S WORDS
OR HIS OWN WORDS. AND I THINK HE HAS MIXED THEM.
BY MR. LEONARD: ,
a Now, WHAT DO yOU CITE TO THrS COURT TO SUPPORT
YOUR CONCLUSION THAT YOU DO NOT FIND SUBSTANTIALLY SIGI'II_
FICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IN NORTH
CAROL I NA?
A PLEASE REPEAT THAT. I WAS HONING iN IN YOUP.
TERM THERE INSTEAD OF YOUR QUESTION. I AM SORRY.
a GIVE THE COURT YOIJR EVIDENCE r^fl1y you REACHED
F P. O. Bor atB
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PRECISlON REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THAT CONCLUS ION.
A OKAY. THANK yOU. F I RST OF ALL, MS. W I NIIER I S
CORRECT IN THAT IN MY DEPOSITION I DEFINED THE TERMS
SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY. I DEFINED ''POLARIZED VOTING, '' BE
IT SIGNIFICANT OR OTHERWISE, AS A SITUATION IN I^IHICH
BLACK VOTE AND WHITE VOTE OR ANY OTHER VOTES DIFFER
SIGI,IIFICANTLY.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU COULD TAKE ANY SUBSET OF
THE POPUI..,\TION AND PULL THEM OUT OF THE MAIN BODY. AND
THEIR BEHAVIOR IS DIFFERENT.
I DEFINED i'ALOC VOTING'' AS THE CASE IN WHICH
THAT POLARIZED VOTING BECOMES THE REASON WHY BLACK VOTERS
ARE DENIED EQUAL PROTECTION OR THAT BLACK VOTERS ARE
SHUT OUT OF THE ELECTION PROCESS AND CANIT ELECT THEIR
CANDIDATES OR PARTICIPATE EQUALLY.
I THINK THAT, THE AREA OF DEFINITION OF \.IHAT
CONSTITUTES A SECTION 2 VIOLATION IS VERY HAZY. CERTAIN-
LY IN THE CASE OF BOLDEN,WHERE THERE WAS A CITY COUNCIL
THAT WAS TOTALLY AT LARGE AND WHERE THE BLACKS FAILED TO
RECEiVE ANY SEATS WHEN THEY HAD 40 PERCENT OF THE VOTE
AND THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THAT WAS NOT IN VIOLATION
BECAUSE THERE WAS NO INTENT PROVEN-_CERTAINLY THAT IS NOT
THE'STANDARD.
AND INDEED, THEI REASON THAT CONGRESS PASSED
SECTION 2-_*
A P. O. gor 2at(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT
TO THE WITNESS STATING HIS INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW AND
WHAT THE CONGRESSIONAL INTENT--_
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : (T Nrrnpos ING) SUSTAI N
THE OBJECTION. AT PERIL OF SOME INTERVENTION, LET ME
SAY THAT I THINK WE WILL BE BEST AIDED AND THAT COUNSELIS
CASE I,IILL NOT SUFFER IF DR. HOFELLER IS REQUIRED TO GIVE
HIS CONCLUSION IN WHATEVER TERMS HE WANTS TO EMPLOY TO
DESCRIBE HIS OPINION AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIZED OR
BLOC VOTING WITHOUT RELATING IT TO LEGAL CONCEPTIONS.
AND LET THE COURT THEN DO THE BEST IT CAN WITH
INTERPRETING WHATEVER CONFLICTS THERE ARE BETWEEN THE TI.IO
EXPERTS AS THEIR TESTIMONY BEARS UPON THE ISSUE OF
POL/TRIZED VOTING WITHIN A LEGAL FRAMEWORK.
IN OTHER WORDS, I WILL SUSTAIN OBJECTIONS IN
WHICH THE DOCTOR ATTE}4PTS TO DRA; INTO HIS TERMINOLOGY
THE LEGAL STANDARD
MR. LEONARD: MAY I MAKE AN OFFER OF
PROOF?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: GO AHEAD.
MR. LOENARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I AM
GOING TO STATE IT VERY BRIEFLY SO WE DONIT HAVE TO TAKE
UP THE TIME OF PUTTING ON THE RECORD WHAT THE COURT HAS
ALREADY SUSTAINED.
DR. HOFELLER! S TESTIMONY WI LL SF:OW THAT HE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IS INDEED A STUDENT OF SECTION 2 AND SECTION 5, ALTHOUG
HE IS NOT A LAWYERi THAT THE DIFFICULTY IN ATTEMPTING To
CONCLUDE I,JHAT IS AND WHAT I5 NOT RACIALLY POLARIZED
VOTING IS THAT ONE HAS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO AS
GUIDANCE, BUT ONLY NEGATIVES=-THAT IS, THAT BOLDEN IS A
NEGATIVE IN THAT THE CONGRESS REACTED SPECIFICALLY I.IHEN
IT ADOPTED SECTION 2 TO THE BOLDEN CASE; THAT TF THE
CONGRESS HAD WANTED TO ABOLISH ALL MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT
IT HAD MORE THAN AN AMPLE OPPORTUNITY IN SECTION 2 TO DO
SO. BUT IT DID NOT DO SO.
THE PLAINTIFFS IN THIS CASE IVOULD APPEAR TO BE
USING AS THE STANDARD THE NUMBER OF BLACKS I./HO COULD BE
ELECTED FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE FOUR
CONTESTED COUNTIES. AND YET THAT IS ONLY CONSISTENT
LEGALLY WITH THE POSITION THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS
WERE DISALLOWED BY THE. CONGRESS O* THAT THAT OUGHT TO BE
THE STANDARD--THAT CONGRESS COULD NOT SAY THAT IN ORDER
TO DETERMINE THE EXTENT TO },IHICH BLACK VOTERS ARE
EXCLUDED OR WHICH THE PROCESS IS NOT EQUALLY OPEN TO THEM
I NCLUDI NG RESULTS, THAT CONGRESS COULD HAVE SAI D, IIWELL,
WHAT YOU DO IS TAKE A LOOK AT THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA AND
DETERI,IINE HOW MANY SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS YOU CAN FORM.
AND IF THERE ARENIT TFIAT MAI.IY BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED AT
LARGE, THEN THERE MUST BE A VIoLATION OF SECTION 2.n
BUT CONGRESS DIDNIT SAY THAT EITHER. SO THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PROBLEM THAT A WITNESS HAS IN TESTIFYING AS TO WHAT IN
THE EXPERTIS OPII.IION CONSTITUTES SUESTANTIALLY SIGNIFI-
CANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IS THAT
THERE IS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO BY WAY OF
DEFINITION. YOU CAT{ ONLY COME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS BY
VIEWING THOSE THINGS WHICH ARENIT UNDER THE CASE LAI^I AND
THE STATUTE VIEVJED TO BE POLARIZED VOTING.
NOI^I, WE APPRECIATE THE POSITION OF THE COUP.T.
IT I./ASNIT THE INTENTION OF THE DEFENDANTS TO HAVE THIS
WITNESS INVADE THE PROVINCE OF THE COURT. BUT VJHEN SOME-
oNE ASKED HIM, "WELL, HOW DO yOU COME TO YOUR CONCLUSION
THAT THE VOTING IS NOT RACIALLY POLARTZED,II IT IS SOME_
WHAT DIFFICULT TO DO SO WITHOUT SOME REFEP.ENCE TO THE
CASE LAW AND TO SECTION 2.
I WANT THE COURT TO KNOW THAT THAT WOULD HAVE
BEEN THE NATURE OF THE TESTIMONY AND THE PROOF. BUT I
WILL GO ON.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: . WE WILL ACCEPT THAT AS AN
DR. HOFELLERI,S OPINIONoFFER OF PROOF 0N THE QUESTIoN OF
AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIT.ED
BEFORE THE COURT.
VOTING BASED ON THE DATA
BY I"1R. LEOI,IARD:
A DR. HOFELLER, CAN YOU GIVE A D5FINITION OR
EXPLANATION OF I,IHAT YOUR VIEW IS WITH RESPECT TO I/,HEN
POLARIZATION OF VOTING BECOMES SIGNIFICANT TO THE POINT
F P. O. Bor 2aldl
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WHERE IT IS THE FACTOR OR A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE
DEFEAT OF A BLACK CANDIDATE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE
HISTORY OF SECTION 2 AND THE CASE LAW? WOULD YOU TRY TO
DO THAT, PLEASE?
A I BELIEVE--AND AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES. I DON'T
I^IANT TO OVERSTEP HERE . DR. GROFMAN BE L I EVES THAT THERE
HAS BEEN A VIOLATION. HE BELIEVES THAT--AND HE CALLS
THAT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC
VOT I NG.
I DONIT BELIEVE THERE IS STATISTICALLY SIGNI_
FICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC VOTING BECAUSE I DO NOT
BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE OVERRIDING CAUSE OF THE
CANDIDATES NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS
I ALSO SEE FROM MY EXAMINATION OF THE DATA
THAT THE BLACKS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN TERMS
OF ELECTING BLACKS TO THE STATE LE""LATURE HAVE EN.JOYED
A CONSIDERABLE GAIN AS A RESULT OF THE T982 ELECTION.
THERE ARE MORE BLACKS BY A CONSIDERABLE DEGREE IN THE
STATE LEGISLATURE.
I RE.JECT THE HYPOTHESIS THAT SOMEHOW THIS
ELECTION OF THESE BLACKS IS AN UNUSUAL EVENT, ONE WHICH
HAS ANY DEGREE OF BEING NEGATED IN 1984. IF ONE LOOKS
AGAIN AT THE SUCCESS OF BLACKS WHO HAVE STOOD FOR RE-
ELECTION AS INCUMBENTS, ONE FINDS THAT BLACKS HAVE EN-
LIOYED A HIGH DEGREE OF SUCCESS IN RE-ELECTION. AND
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PREClSION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THEREFORE, I REJECT AGAIN THAT THIS CANNOT OCCUR IN
1984.
I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION DATA IN THE
COUNTIES INVOLVED. I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION OF
THE STATE. AND I FIND THAT BLACKS ARE MAKING SIGNIFICANT
GAINS IN TERMS OF THEIR REGISTRATION IN RELATION TO THE
WHITE REGISTRATIOI.'I; AND THAT THIS INDEED MAY BE THE CAUSE
FOR THE BLACKS BEING MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 182 THAN IN I84.
I BELIEVE THAT I,THEN I LOOK AT THE TOTALITY
OF THE REDISTRICTING PLAN IN PLACE IN NORTH CAROLINA NOW
THAT IT CAN BE SHOWN THAT BLACK SUCCESS HAS IN SOME CASES
BEEN ENHANCED BY THE PRESENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS;
AND THAT THIS ENHANCEMENT CAN BE SHOI{N EVEN TO HAVE
AMOUNTED TO PROPORTIONALITY, EVEN THOUGH PROPORTIONALITY
MAY NOT BE REQUiRED--I CANI:T REALLY SAY WHETHER IT IS; SO
THAT IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE CONNTUTTOru OF BLACK
REGISTRATION TO THE SUCCTSS OF BLACK CANDIDATES--THE
FACT THAT THAT EXISTS--AND JHE PRESENCE OF ALL THE OTHER
DATA DOES NOT LEAD ME--CANNOT LEAD ME--TO A CONCLUSION
THAT THERE IS STATiSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIE
VOTING IN TERMS OF DENYING BLACKS THEIR. RIGHTS.
a Do You HAVE AN OPINION SPECIFICALLY, DR.
HOFELLER, AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SUBSTANTIALLY: SIGNIFICANT
RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA AND IN THE
COUNTIES IN QUESTION WAS THE DECISIVE FACTOR IN THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 976.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
DEFEAT OF THOSE BLACKS WHO DiD NOT GET ELECTED THAT YOU
LOOKED AT--THE RACES YOU LOOKED AT?
A IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION--WELL, YES. I
HAVE AN OPINION.
a WHAT rS rT?
A MY OPINION IS THAT CERTAINLY IT COULD HAVE
BEEN A FACTOR. BUT I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT IT IS THE
MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTOR OR IT IS THE ONLY FACTOR AND
THAT THAT FACTOR OPERATING IN A VACUUM WAS THE CAUSE OF
THAT. THERE ARE TOO MANY OTHER FACTORS PLAYING UPON
THOSE ELECTIONS THAT COULD BE THE CAUSE OF THOSE CANDI-
DATES NOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
A THERE WAS SOME TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN--WELL,
EXCUSE ME. I THINK IN YOUR LAST ANSWER YOU SAID THAT
BLACKS WERE MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 1982 THAN THEY WERE IN
'84. I AM WONDERING WHETHER OR *O' YOU MISSPOKE WITH
RESPECT TO THE YEARS INVOLVED?
A MY APOLOGY--YES; THAT THEY WERE MORE SUCCESS-
FUL IN I82 THAN THEY WERE IN T80 AND INDEED IN '78.
A THERE WAS SOI4E TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN WITH
RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY IN ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. WHAT IS
YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY AS AN ATTRIBUTE
IN THE MAKEUP OF ELECTORAL DISTRICTS?
A AS A STUDENT OF REAPPOINTMENT AND AS AN
OBSERVER OF REAPPORTIONMENT, CONSISTENCY IS USUALLY A
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA
VERY GOOD SUBSTITUTE FOR GERRYI.4ANDEIIING. IF YOU WAI.IT T
HAVE CONSISTENCY IN ELECTION DISTRICTS, YOU GERRYMANDER
THEI4. AND THEN YOU CAN ENSURE THAT YOU WILL GET A
GUARANTEED RESULT. I THINK THAT IF YOU SUBDIVIDE ANY
DI STRI CT YOU CAN FIND THAT THE DI STRI CT I^/I LL NOT BE
HOMOGENEOUS, HOl^JEVER.
a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO T,JHETHER OR NOT
THE EFFECTS OF PAST DISCRI14INATION IN THIS STATE HAVE
HINDERED OR ARE HINDERING THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO
EFFECTIVELY AND EQUALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL
PROCE SS ?
MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO BOTH THAT
BEING OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDS OF EXPERTISE AND ALSO IT HAS
NO ADEQUATE FOUNDATION AS TO WHAT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE
PAST DISCRIMINATION IN THIS STATE OR WHAT THE CURRENT
BARRIERS ARE. HE HAS NOT BEEN I; THE COURTROOM THROUGH-
OUT THE TRIAL.
.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : . COUNSEL,
IS THAT THAT OB.JECTION IS WELL TAKEN.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DI D YOU PR,EPARE AN EXHI BIT AS
STUDY THAT YOU DID ON VOTER REGISTRATION
CAROL I NA?
MY DISPOSITION
A RESULT OF A
IN NORTH I
A I DiD.
A I5 THAT A THREE-PAGE EXHIBIT MARKED DEFENDANTS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
EXHIBIT 62?
(Orr,rNoRrurs EXHI BIT No . 62 wAS
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATTON. )
THE FIRST PAGE OF EXHIBIT 62.
EXHIBIT IS THREE PAGES?
A
a
A
a
AND WHAT
A
a
A
TION DATA
OF ONE OF
TR IAL--I
BOARD.
NO. THAT IS
YES. AND THE
IT IS.
WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT EXHIBIT TO THE COURT
YOU PURPORT TO SHOW BY IT?
THE FIRST PAGE?
THE WHOLE EXHIBIT?
THE FIRST PAGE IS AN ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRA-
FOR THE STATE AS A WHOLE WHICH I COMPILED OUT
THE OTHER EXHIBITS WHICH WAS PRESENTED AT THIS
BELIEVE BY SOMEONE FROM THE STATE ELECTION
. AND ALL IT.REALLY SHOWS IS THE AMOUNT OF
WHITES REGISTERED IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE
OF THOSE YEARS AND THE NUMBER OF BLACKS REGISTEP.ED IN THE
NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE OF THOSE YEARS AND THE
RATIO OF WHITES TO BLACKS.
THE EXHIBIT WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN DRAWING MY
CONCLUSION, IN THAT I FIND IN IB2 A PARTICULARLY LARGE
GAIN IN BLACK REGISTRATION VIS-A-VIS WHITE REGISTRATION:
THE I-OWER THE RATIO CN THE R.IGHX, THE BETTER THE BLACKS
ARE REG I STERED I N ACCORDANCE I..1I TH THE WH I TES .
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AND SO IT IS MY FEELING THAT THIS TREND WILL
CONTINUE AND THAT THIS I^/ILL HAVE AN EFFECT UPON THE BLACK
POTENTIAL TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ELECTIONS IN THE DISTRICTS
THAT ARE BEING DISCUSSED.
I WOULD ALSO, INCIDENTALLY, CONCLIJDE FROM THIS
THAT BLACKS EITHER MAY BE HAVING LESS DIFFICULTY REGIS-
TERING; OR THERE t"lIGHT BE SOME OTHER FACTOR AT LARGE Il.,t
THE BODY POLITIC, SUCH AS THE CHANGE IN REGISTRATION
PROCEDURES WHICH I HAVE HEARD ABOUT AND THE ENCOURAGEMENT
OF OTHER POLITICAL GROUPS TO REGISTER BLACKS, WHICH IS
BRINGING MORE AND MORE BLACKS INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS
IN THIS STATE.
A AND YOU HAVE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE MECKLEN-
BURG ELECTIONS. AND I TAKE IT THAT PAGE 2 IS SIMPLY AN
ANALYSI S 'T[]AT AIDED YOU IN YOUR TESTIMONY?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
AND TELL THE COURT WHAT PAGE 3 OR WHAT THE
SIGNIFICANCE OF PAGE
'
OF T-HAT EXHIBIT IS.
A PAGE ] LOOKS AT FOUR INDIVIDUAL COUNTIES AND
ONE THREE-COUNTY AREA AND TAKES TURNOUT STATISTICS OFF
THE GROFMAN EXHIBITS FOR THOSE GENERAL AND PRIMARY ELEC-
TIONS IN THE YEARS INDICATED. AND IT TAKES REGISTRATION
DATA OFF OF THE STATE ELECTION BOARDIS EXHIBIT FOR THE
CLOSIl.IG GENERAL ELECTION REGISTRATION.
THIS DOCUMENT AGAIN WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
LEAD I NG TO MY CONCLUSIONS, AS I STATED.
AND THAT HELPFULNESS COMES FROI4 THE COLUMN TO
RIGHT, WHICH SHOU/S THAT THE RATIO OF l,/HITES TO
I S DROPPI NG?
THAT IS CORRECT.
a
THE FAR
B LAC KS
A AND THE LOWER RATIO GOES, WHAT DCES THAT MEAN?
A WELL, WHEN THE NUMBER IS LOWER, THE PROPOR,TION
OF T.JHITES TO BLACKS DROPS, WHICH MEANS THAT THE BLACKS
HAVE A STRONGER REPRESENTATION IN THE POTENTIAL ELECTORA
IN TERMS OF REGISTRATION.
MR. LEONARD: WOULD THE COURT GRANT ME
JUST A FEW MINUTES FOR A CAUCUS WITH COUNSEL HERE?
(PAUSE. )
BY MR. LEONARD:
a DR. HOFELLER, DID YOU LoOK AT IN YOUR EXAMINA-
TION THE NASH-EDGECOMBE-WILSON AREA OF THE STATE WITH
RESPECT TO A SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICT?
A I DID.
DURING THE COURSE OF THAT INVESTIGATION, DID
YOU INVESTIGATE VARIOUS PROPOSALS WITH RESPECT TO CREAT-
ING A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA?
VJHAT I DID ESSENTIALLY WAS IN MY VERY FIRST
WORK FOR THE LEGISLATURE BACK IN 1981, I DETERI'4INED IN
MY JUDGI{ENT THAT THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY OF FORMING A
SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. BEFORE I'4Y INFORMAL DEPOSITION
F P. O. Bor l'tlfi!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN APRIL AND BECAUSE I NOW HAVE MAPS TO GO ALONG WITH
THE DATA, I ATTEMPTED TO DRAW SUCH A DISTRICT AI..ID INDTED
FOUND THAT A DISTP.ICT COULD BE DRAWN I]'.I THAT COUNTY THAT
WOULD HAVE MA\.,OR I TY BLACK POPULAT I ON.
a WHAT IS yoUR OPINION h'rTH P.ESPECT TO SUCH A__
EXCUSE ME. LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE. DID YOU PUT TIIAT
PROPOSED DISTRICT ON A MAP OF SOME KIND?
YHS. I PUT IT ON A MAP.
BUT YOU DONIT HAVE THAT AVAILABLE NOI^,?
I AM SORRY. I DONIT.
a WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID yOU--WHAT pERCENTAGE
BLACK WAS THE DISTRICT THAT YOU DREW?
59.
A WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU I,IAKE WITH RESPECT
TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF SUCH A DISTRICT IN ORDER TO
GET.AT THAT HIGH A PERCENTAGE SI.ACTZ
WELL, THAT DISTRICT--I MIGHT REITERATE THAT
THERE MAY BE OTHER COMB I NAT I ONS . BUT T!.!,\T D I STR I CT WAS
BASED UPON USING TOWNSHIPS AND NOT BREAKING TOWNSHIPS.
AND IT WAS ALSO A TVJO-COUNTY DISTRICT. AND IN ORDER TO
CRT:ATE A TWO-COUNTY DI STRI CT, I HAD TO MAKE A DI STRI CT
WHICH },/OULD BE I"IOSTLY RURAL AREAS AND THAT WOULD IN EF_
FECT GO AROUND THE PERIPHERY OF NASH AND EDGECOMBE
COUNTIES FROM THE FAR SOUTH CORNER OF EDGECOMBE ALMOST
ALL THE l^rAY AROUND TO THE FAR SIDE OF NASIJ COUNTY.
F P, O. Eor 2tlct
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SO I T WOLILD BE A D I STRI CT WHI CH WOULD--WHOSE
COMMUNITY OF INTEREST WOULD ONLY BE THAT IT I^,AS BL,\CK.
THERE I{OULD BE NO OTHER BAS I S FOR COI4MUN I TY OF I NTEREST.
A WOULD THE CREATION OF SUCH A DISTRICT SUBJECT
YOU TO A VIOLATION OF ANY OF THE PRINCIPLES OF REDIS-
TRICTING?
A I THINK THAT THAT DISTRICT, AS
"./ELL
AS
DISTRICT THAT I SEE BEFORE ME, WOULD BE CONSIDERED
ANY REDISTRICTING STUDENT TO BE---
MS. WINNER: (INTERPoSING) I oBJECT
TO WHAT SOME OTHER REDISTRICTING STUDENT IS GOII..IG TO
CONSIDER IT. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HE CONSIDERS IT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU ARE QUALIFIED, DOCTOB
TO GIVE YOUR OWN OPINION AS TO THAT MATTER. AND YOU MAY
GIVE YOUR OPINION AS TO THE CHARACTERISTICS.
THE
BY
, THE V'TI TNESS : ,ar, YouR HoNoR. IN MY
oPINIOI9 THAT WOULD BE A GERRYMAT.,|DER.
BY MR. LEONARD:.
a Do You FrND suppoRT FoR YouR opINIoN WITH
RESPECT TO THAT IN THE LITERATURE AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE AS
RED I STR I CTER ?
a
SHERI FF OF
I DO.
NOl,/, DID YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR THE
WAKE COUNTY--THE ELECTIOI.IS THERE?
I DID.A
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAr P. O. lor 2tlas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM THOSE ELECTIONS?
A I CONCLUDED ESSENTIALLY THAT A BLACK SHERIFF
RUNNING IN 182 AS AN INCUMBENT WAS ABLE TO GAIN NOMII'IA-
TION AND RE-ELECTION IN A COUNTY THAT WAS PREDOMINANTLY
WHTTE.
A DID THAT AID YOU IN ANY WAY IN YOUR CONCLUSION
WITH RESPECT TO RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?
IT DID.
a WHAT IS YOUR OPINTON Wllb:N YOU LOOKED AT THE
RESULTS OF THAT ELECT I ON IdI TH RESPECT TO YOUR CONCLUS I ON?
A I THI NK THAT THAT ELECT I ON }^/AS PERHAPS MORE
HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE COUNTY INVOLVED THAN IT WAS
ANYWHERE ELSE. BUT IT DID SHOW THAT THERE WERE SITUATI
IN WHICH LARGE NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS--INDEED, SUBSTAN_
TIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS_-WOULD CROSS OVER AND VOTE
FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE.
A I WOULD ASK YOU TO REFER TO WHAT HAS BEEN
DES I GNATED AS DE FENDANTS t EXH I B I TS 63 AND 6I+ AND ASK YOU
TO IDENTIFY THOSE, PLEASE?
(orrrNoRNrs EXHIBIT NOS. 63 AND
6+ WERE MARKED FOR IDENIIFICT.TI
DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT 63 SHOWS A GRAPH OR SCATTER
GRAM, AS YOU MIGHT CLASSIFY IT, OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF
THE PERCENT RECEIVED BY THE CANDIDATE FOR SHERIFF IN I'I,\KE
COUNTY IN RELATION TO THE BLACK REGISTRATION FOR BOTH THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGI.I, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION.
a I^/HAT DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT EXHI BIT?
A THE SAME CONCLUSTON THAT I DID BEFORE. AND
THAT IS THAT SUBSTANTIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS CROSSED
OVER AND VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE, ALLOWING HII'1 TO
I,IIN TIII] ELECTION.
A CAN YOU TELL FROM THAT EXHIBIT WHAT PERCENTAGE
OF THE WHITES VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE?
A NO.
a Do You KNov,, WHAT THAT PERCENTAGE WAS?
A I CAN'T GIVE IT TO YOU RIGHT NOW.
a AND EXHTBIT 64?
A EXHIBIT 64 IS AN INSTANCE IN WINSTON-SALEM IN
THE FIFTH WARD, I BELIEVE, II.,I WHICH A BLACK CANDIDATE WAS
ELECTED IN A WHITE CITY COUNCIL DISTRICT. AND THOSE ARE
GRAPHS wH ICH SHoW, AGAI I!, THE *.iO,IONSHI P BETWEEN THE
WHITE AND BLACK VOTE.-I AM SORRY--BETWEEN THE PERCENT
RECEIVED BY THE BLACK AND THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK
REGISTRATION.
A AND THOSE WERE PREPARED BY YOU IN ORDER TO
SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSIONS?
A THEY VJERE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION_-YES--THAT
I DID IN LOOKING INTO VOTING BEHAVIOR.
A DR. HOFELLER, ONE FINAL QUESTION: DO YOU HAVE
AN OPINION AS TO VJHETHER OR NOT CHAPTER 1 OF THE 1982
A P. O. Box ,taB
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PRECTSION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
SECOND EXTRA SESSIOII OF THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL
ASSEMBLY RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICTING OF THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES AND CHAPTER 2 RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICT-
ING OF THE SENATE OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA DENY THE
BLACK PEOPLE OF THIS STATE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT
CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE?
MS. WINNER:
JUDGE PH I LL I PS :
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. LEONARD:
I OBJECT.
OVERRULED.
I DO.
WHAT IS THAT OPINION?
MY OPINION IS THAT IT DOES NOT.
MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N L2..05 P.M.
BY MS. I{INNER:
DR. HOFELLER, DRA\^JING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
EXHIBITS TO WHICH YOU.JUST.TESTIFI-D--THAT IS, EXHIBITS
AND 63 AND 64--THOSE ARE THE ONLY ELECTIONS WHICH YOU HA
TESTIFIED ABOUT WHICH WERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROFMANIS
ANALYSIS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I LOOKED AT ELECTIONS IN TWO OTHER PLACES
BESIDES THOSE. BUT I HAVEN'T PRESENTED ANY EXHIBITS.
THEY WOULD BE PART OF MY CONCLUSIONS. I AM NOT SURE I---
a (rrurrRposrNG) you DrDN'T TESTIFY--AS FAR AS
a
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YOUR TESTIMONY GOES TODAY, THE ONLY ELECT]ONS THAT YOU
MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY I{HICH I^/ERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROF-
MANI S ANALYSIS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE SHOWN IN EXHIBI'TS
63 AND 64; rs rHAT CoRRECT?
A YES.
a AIJD tlrlW DID YOU HAppEN TO PICK THE WAKE COUNTY
SHERIFFIS RACE AND THE WINSTON_SALEM CITY COUNCIL RACE TO
ANALYZE OUT OF ALL OF THE MANY ELECTIONS THAT HAVE
HAPPENED IN NORTH CAROLINA IN THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE YEAR
A THESE ELECTIOI.IS WERE GIVEN TO ME BY THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AS INSTANCES IN WHICH BLACK
CANDIDATES T',ERE ELECTED IN WHITE MAJORITY DISTRICTS.
A WAS THAT BASED ON A REQUEST BY YOU FOR EXAMPL
OF ELECTIONS IN WHiCH BLACK CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN ELECTED
IN MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS?
. A I DONTT RECALL WHETHER IT WAS A DIRECT RE1UEST
OR 1'.IOT. THERE WAS A DI SCUSS I ON I N WH I CH ELECT I ONS TO BE
LOOKED AT WERE DISCUSSED. AND THAT CAME OUT OF THAT
DISCUSSIOI.J.
a AND THOSE 1^/ERE THE ELECTIONS WHICH YOU PER-
CEIVED WOULD BE LIKELY TO SHOW THE LEAST POLARIZED
VOTING--THAT IS, ELECTIONS IN WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES WON
IN A MAJORITY WHITE ELECTION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I AM NOT SURE THAT I WOULD .JUDGE THE CITY
COUNCIL ELECTIOI..I II'J VJINSTON-SALEM AS NOT HAVING
F P. O. Bor 2alB
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
POLARIZATION. AGAIN, I THINK IF YOU CALCULATED THE
CORRELATION ON THAT, YOU WOULD FIND YOU WOULD HAVE A HIGH
DEGREE OF CORRELATION. SO AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF THE
TERMS.
A CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT 64, WHICH
IS THE WINSTON-SALE}4 CITy COUNCIL SCATTERGRAM, DOES THAT
SCATTERGRAM--IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THAT SCATTERGRAM SHOW
RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?
A AS I WOULD DEFiNE RACIALLY POLARIZED VO ING,
AS I PREVIOUSLY DID--YES; IT DOES.
A AND IT DOES IN BOTH THE PRII'IARY AND THE
GENERAL ?
A YES.
a ntoi^t, trF I UNDERSTAND THIS GRAPH--AND I MAy
WELL NOT--THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT ON THE HORIZON-
TAL AXiS YOU HAVE USED. AS THE BASIS OF BLACK REGISTRATI
IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT..
A THAT IS THE PERCENT OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS
IN EACH PRECINCT THAT IS BLACK; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
q AND SO THAT GRAPH DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT
THE POSSIBILITY OF SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT VOTER TURNOUT
BETWEEN WHITES AND BLACKS IN THAT ELECTION; DOES IT?
A NO. IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO
F P. O.8ox 2tla
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TO THE RECORDS OF THE LOCAL ELECTION BOARD AT.ID FIND OUT
WHO THE VOTERS WERE THAT ACTUALLY VOTED--IF, INDEED, THEY
I4IERE KEPT IN THAT.
a AND YOU DIDN' T DO THAT?
A -I DID NOT DO THAT.
a AND SO IN THAT PARTiCULAR ELECTION__DO yOU
KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS
IS IN THAT PRECINCT_-IN THAT WARD?
A NO; I DON! T.
a you JUST KNOW THAT IT IS SO|4ETHTNG ABOVE 50
PERCENT WHITE?
A THE PERCENTAGE OF WHAT?
A THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTSRS IS ABOVE
5O PERCENT WHITE?
A YES.
a BUT YOU DON,T KNOW HOW MUCH ABOVE?
A YES. NO; I DON|T KNOW WHAT--YES. I DON'T
KNOW WHAT PERCENT.
A SO IF IT WERE CLOSE TO 50 PERCENT AND THERE
WAS, IN FACT, A HIGHER VOTER TURNOUT AMOI..IG BLACK VOTERS
THAN WHITE VOTERS, IT COULD MEAN THAT FEW, IF ANY, WHITE
VOTERS VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A CERTAINLY.
a AND IN FACT, tf' yOU LOOK AT YOUR GRAPH FOR
THE PRIMARY AND IF I UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ IT, AT THE
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AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
VERY BOTTOM LITTLE CORNER ON THE LEFT BOTTOM THERE IS
AN rrArr 2
THAT IS CORRECT.
AND DOES THAT MEAN THAT IN A PRECINCT THAT
WAS ABOUT 1 PERCENT BLACK IN REGISTRATION, THE BLACK
CANDIDATE GOT ABOUT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE?
ABOUT ONE FOR TWO; YES.
IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 2 OF THAT EXHIBIT IN THE
LAST TWO COLU|4NS--COLUMN g AND g, THE VERY TOp ROW FIRST
OBSERVATION--DOES THAT NOT INDICATE THAT IN A PRECINCT
THAT HAD 1 PERCENT OF ITS REGISTERED VOTERS BLACK THAT
THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE?
A IT DOES.
a oKAy. MovING ALONG TO EXHIBIT 63, yOU DID
NOT ANALYZE THE 1978 SHERIFFT S RACE IN WAKE COUI'ITY; DID
YOU?
A NO.
A AND THAT }IAS AN ELECTION VIFERE THE SAME BLACK
CANDIDATE WAS A CANDIDATE? DO YOU KNOW THAT?
A I DONIT KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH OF HIS TERM IS.
SO HE HAD TO HAVE RUN IN THE PRECEDING ELECTION OR HE
WOULDNIT HAVE BEEN AN INCUMBENT. BUT I DONIT KNOVJ.
DO YOU TH I NK THAT SHER I FF RAKER I S I NCUI,IBENCY
TO DO WITH THE NUMBER OF V/HITE VOTES THATHAD ANYTHI NG
HE GOT?
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AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I WOULD SAY YES. IT PROBABLY DID.
A YOU DID NOT ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF BLACK AND
I^IHITE VOTERS IVHO VOTED FOR SHERIFF BAKER IN THAT ELECTI
DID YOU?
A .NO; I DID NOT.
q AND THIS GRAPH AS WELL AS THE \,IINSTON_SALE}4
GRAPH IGNORES DIFFERENTIAL TURNOUT?
A YES.
A AND IF BLACK TURNOUT WAS HIGHER THAN WHITE
TURNOUT, THEN THE AMOUNT OF OR THE NUMBER OF WHITE VOTERS
WHO VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE WOULD BE EXAGGERATED;
IS THAT CORRECT?
(NO RESPONSE. )
a DO YOU WAl.lT ME TO R.EP[:AT T}IAT?
A NO. I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUEST I ON. BUT IT I{OULD
DEPEND ON WHAT YOU TAL.K ABOUT AErr.fe EXAGGERATED. I THINK
THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT IT WAS SIGNIFICANT
TO THE ELECTION. THERE IS ALSO THE CONVERSE OF THAT--THA
THE TURNOUTS COULD HAVE BEEN THE OPPOSITE WAY FROM WHICH
YOU STATED THEM.
A THAT IS RIGHT. AND IN THAT CASE, THE AMOUNT
POLARIZATION OF VOTING WOULD BE UNDERESTIMATED?
A THAT IS RIGHT. THAT POINTS TO THE PROBLEM OF
USING THAT SORT OF DATA AS A }4AJOR TOOL--AS THE I4A.JOR
TOOL, PERHAPS--IN DETERI'lINING SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BLOC VOTING.
A AND YOU CANIT TELL FROM THIS GRAPH WHETHER YOU
HAVE UNDERESTIMATED OR OVERESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF
POLARIZATION BECAUSE OF THE TURNOUT?
A .NO. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THESE ELECTIONS IS
INDEED MORE IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT THERE WAS STATISTI-
CAL POLARTZATION AND THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE I^,ON IN A WHI
DISTRICT.
a so WHAT you coNcLUDED IS ALTHOUGH THERE WAS
STATISTICAL POLARIZATION, NONETHELESS THE BLACK CANDIDATE
WON; IS THAT RIGHT?
A STATISTICAL POLARIZATION; YES.
A NOW, I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE
HIRED BY THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA INITIALLY IN
NOVEMBER--EXCUSE ME_-IN NOVEMBER OF 1981 OR THEREABOUTS?
A YES.
A AND AT THAT TIME YOU MADE A REPORT TO THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY ABOUT WHERE THERE WERE SUFFICIENT
CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTERS TO CREATE MAJORITY BLACK
DISTRICTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A MA.JORITY SINGLE-MEMBER BLACK DISTRICTS; YE5.
A MA.JORITY BLACK SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?
A YES.
A AND ONE OF THOSE PLACES THAT YOU REPORTED THAT
THAT WAS POSSIBLE WAS IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE STATE
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FOR THE SENATE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THE PERCENTAGE OF THE DISTRICT WHICH YOU
REPORTED COULD BE CREATED WAS 59.4 PERCENT; IS THAT RIGH
A .TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION; YES.
A AND THAT WAS IN THE REPORT?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS. I THINK YOU HAVE A COPY OF
THE REPORT. AND I DONI T.
a YES. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT?
(oocUMENT HANDED UP To wITNESS.)
IS THAT A COPY OF YOUR REPORT TO THE GENERAL
AS SEMB LY ?
A YES.
A LOOKING AT PAGE 6, COULD YOU JUST READ THE
LAST PARAGRAPH?
A 't...159.4 PERCENT SENATE SEAT IS ALSO POSSIBLE
WITH TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS.II
A AND DOES THAT IMPLY THAT OTHERWISE IT CONSISTS
OF WHOLE COUNTIES?
A YES.
a AND THOSE TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN
TOWNSHIPS? YOU DIDNIT WORK WITH ANYTH]NG OTHER THAN
TOWNSHIPS; DID YOU?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A DID YOU ACTUALLY DRAW THAT DISTRICT OUT ON Ao
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MAP ?
A WELL, I HAD TO HAVE DRAWN IT OUT ON A MAP OR
I COULDNIT HAVE ASCERTAINED WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS CON-
TIGUOUS. AGAIN, I DONTT KNOW WHERE THE MAP IS. BUT I AM
SURE THAT I DREW IT ON A MAP. AND IT WAS CONTIGUOUS.
A DID ANYONE EVER ASK YOU TO SEE THAT MAP?
A NO.
A OTHER THAN ME?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A NOW, YOU HAVE TESTIFIED PREVIOUSLY IN THE CASE
r OF KETCHAM V. BURNS IN CHICAGO?
A YES-_IF THAT IS THE CITY COUNCIL.
a YES?
A YES.
a AND THAT WAS IN OCTOBER OF 1982 ROUGHLY?
. A YES.
A YOU WERE AN EXPERT IN THAT CASE?
A YE S; I h,AS
A WAS THE ISSUE IN THAT CASE WHETHER OR NOT
THERE WAS DILUTION OF MINORITY VOTING STRENGTH BECAUSE OF
FRACTURING AND PACKING?
A YOU COULD STYLE IT THAT WAY. YES. THE ISSUE
wAS---
a (trureRPosING) rHar trJAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE
I SSUES ?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THAT I,/AS ONE OF THE I SSUES. YES.
A DID YOU TESTIFY IN THAT CASE THAT THE TWO
MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA FOR REAPPORTIONMENT WERE EQUALITY
OF POPULATION AND AVOIDANCE OF RACIAL DILUTION?
A .I DID.
A AND DID YOU TESTIFY THAT A RULE OF THUMB FOR A
MINORI'f Y SI-:AT I S GENERALLY STATED AS 6 5 PERCENT OF THE
TOTAL POPULATION?
A YES--WITH THE CAVEAT THAT IT COULD VARY CON-
S IDERABLY IN INDIVIDUAL CASES AI.ID THAT YOU HAD TO LOOK AT
THEM.
A BUT YOU STARTED WITH 65 PERCENT? AND THEN YOU
TOOK INDIVIDUAL CIRCUMSTANCES INTO ACCOUNT TO RAISE OR
LOWER THAT AMOUNT?
A THAT IS RIGHT. DID YOU SAY 65 PERCENT OF
TOTAL POPULATION?
a YES?
A YES. THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND THE REASON THAT THAT IS GREATER THAN 50
PERCENT OR SOME OF THE REASONS THAT IT IS GREATER THAN 50
PERCENT IS BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE LOWER VOTING AGE POPULA-
TION OR POSSIBLE LOWER REGISTRATION OR POSSIBLE LOWER
TURNOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
a AND IN THAT CASE--II.I LIGHT OF TH,qT, YOU
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
TESTIFIED THAT A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WAS NOT A VIABLE
BLACK WARD?
I AI4 NOT SURE THAT I TESTIFiED TO THAT. MY
OPINION WOULD BE PROBABLY THAT I WOULD HAVE SAID THAT IF
ASKED THAT. QUESTION_-YES--PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF
CH I CAGO.
A AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH
A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WOULD NOT BE A VIABLE BLACK WARD?
A YES-_ALTHOUGH I MIGHT ADD THERE ARE ALSO
SITUATIONS IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO WHERE BLACKS HAVE WON
IN WARDS CONSIDERABLY LESS. IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH
MACHINE POLITICS IN THAT CITY.
A AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER
IF HISPANIC WARDS WERE OVER 60 PERCENT HISPANIC; IS THAT
RIGHT?
A AT LEAST.
q Do You KNOW WHAT THE VOTER REGISTRATION IS FOR
THE CURRENT SENATE DISTRICI NUMBER 2 IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A NO. I AM SORRY. I DONIT.
A b,OULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO
CONSIDER IN DETERI'III'IING WHETHER OR NOT SENATE DISTRICT
NUMBER 2 AS CURRENTLY DRAWN IS A VIABLE BLACK DISTRICT?
A
a
A
CERTAI NLY.
CAN YOU GIVE A DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE?
WITH RELATION TO---
F P. O. Eor 2ll.(l
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O. gor 2116
L, R.t.toh. Nodh cr.oln. 27olI
a (trurenposING) l,rINoRITy vorING STRENGTH?
A WITH RELATION TO MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS?
a YES?
A SUBMERGENCE WITH RELATION TO MULTI-MEMBER
DISTFIICTS.TAKES PLACE WHEN THERE IS A MINORITY POPULATION
WHICH IS SUFFICIENTLY CONCENTRATED SUCH THAT A DISTRICT
CAN BE DRAWN TO INCLUDE THAT POPULATION_-A REASONABLE
DISTRICT--IN WHICH THAT MINORITY WOULD CONSTITUTE A
MAJOR I TY.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE TOTAL OF ALL THE
I'lINORITY INHABITANTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT DO NOT
CONSTITUTE A MA.JORITY OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTIS
POPULAT I ON.
A AND WHEN YOU SAY A REASONABLE DISTRICT COULD
BE DRAUIN, DO YOU MEAN ONE THAT IS INTACT AND CONTIGUOUS?
A REASONABLY.:O. REASONABLY SO.
A USING THAT DEFINITION--I THINK THAT YOU
TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVE EXAMII.,IED THE CONCENTRATION OF
MINORITY VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM
AND WAKE COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHER COUNTIES IN THE STAT
ALSO.
A BUT YOU HAVE EXAI.4I NED I T I N BOTH COUNT I ES ?
A YES.
A USING THAT CRITERION, DO YOU CONSIDER THERE T
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BE SUBM=RGENCE I N THE MECKLENBURG COUI{TY HOIJSE DI STR I CT)
A THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT?
A YES--IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? WOULD YOU LIKE
ME TO PUT THE MAP UP?
A I WAS .JUST GOING TO GET THE DI STRICT NUMBERS_-
DI STRI CT 36?
a YES?
A YE S . THE ANSWER I S YES-- I N ACCORDANCE I,,I TH
THAT DEFINITION; YES.
A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE
MECKLENBURG-CABARRUS SENATE DISTRICT, WHICH IS SENATE
DISTRICT NUMBER 22?
A YES.
A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE
DURHAM COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT--I CANIT RECALL THE NUMBEP.?
A 23; YES.
A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I
THE WAKE COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 2I?
A YES.
A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I
THE FORSYTH COUNTY HOUSE DiSTRICT NUMBER 39?
A YES.
A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE
I,II LSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH HOUSE DI STRICT NUMBER 8?
A YES.
A P, O. 8or 2tl(l
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THERE WERE SOME
EXAMPLES IN TI.IIS APPORTIONMENT PLAT! IN WHICH I.lULTI_MEMBER
DISTRICTS HAVE ENHANCED THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO
GET ELECTED? IS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED--THAT THE CREA-
TION OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS HAD ENHANCED?
A YES.
A WAS ONE OF YOUR EXAMPLES OF THAT IN CUMBERLAND
COUNTY ?
A FAYETTEVILLE?
a YES?
A YES.
a Do you KNow How CUMBERLAND COUNTY WAS AppOR-
TIONED IN 1970?
A NO.
A SO WHEN YOU SAID THAT THE ABILITY WAS ENHANCE
IT WAS NOT AS COI4PARED TO HOW IT USED TO BE?
A WHAT I MEANT BY THAT WAS THAT THE CREATION OF
THE MULTI-MEMBER SEATS--MORE STRONGLY PERHAPS IN ROBESON
COUNTY THAN IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY--AIDS THE BLACKS IN
TERMS OF GETTING THEIR CANDIDATE ELECTED.
A IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT
THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, I BELIEVE, HAS TWO MEMBERS;
I S THAT CORP.ECT ?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND IT IS.JUST A PORTION OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY:
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THAT IS RIGHT. I BELIEVE IT CONTAINS UNDER
5O PERCENT BLACK POPULATION.
A DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE
REGISTERED VOTERS IN THAT DISTRICT IS THAT ARE BLACK?
A . I THINK IT MIGHT INDEED BE OVER 50 PERCENT.
THERE IS A GREAT AMOUNT OF MILITARY POPULATION IN THAT
DISTRICT.
a AND ISN| T IT, IN FACT, OVER g0 PERCENT OF THE
REGISTERED VOTERS THAT ARE BLACK IN THAT DISTRICT?
A I CANIT SPEAK FOR THAT, BECAUSE I SAID I
DI DN I T KNOI/, EXACTLY WHAT THE REGI STRAT ION WAS.
A IF THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTERS IN
THAT DISTRICT WERE OVER 8O PERCENT BLACK, WOULD YOU THINK
IT WAS A GOOD GENERALIZATION FROM THE RESULTS iN THAT
DISTRICT TO A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN WHICH THE REGIS-
TERED VOTERS WERE UNDER 5O PENCTT.TT OF THE POPULATION--OF
THE REGISTERED VOTERS?
A NO; CERTAINLY NOJ.
a Now, TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO ROBESON, SCOT-
LAND AND HOKE COUNTY---
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ROBESON.
MS. WINNER: i AM SORRY--ROBESON,
SCOTLAND AND HOKE. I, CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND
.JUDGE BRITT OP. JUDGE MCMILLAN.
.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I AM FROM SCOTLAND.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
M5. WINNER: I I^/I LL BE ESPECIALLY
CAREFUL ABOUT MY PRONUNCIATION.
BY MS. WINNER:
a TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ROBESON, SCOT_
LAND AND HOKE DISTRICT, YOU SAID THAT THE CREATION OF A
MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA ENHANCED THE ABILITIES
OF BLACK PEOPLE TO GET ELECTED, IS THAT RIGHT?
A I AI,1 NOT SURE THAT I SAi D THE CREATI ON-_CER_
TAINLY THE EXISTENCE OF.
A SO YOU WERE NOT COMPARING IT TO WHAT HAPPENED
IN THAT DISTRICT IN THE SEVENTIES?
I AM NOT ENTIRELY CERTAIN THAT THE DISTRICT
MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE SEVENTIES AS
IT WAS IN THE EIGHTIES. THE POINT I WOULD MAKE HERE IS
THAT IF THAT DISTRICT WERE TO BE SUBDIVIDED INTO THREE
Il'IDIVIDUAL DISTRICTST. I AM NOT 9URE IT COULD BE ASCER-
TAINED THAT THE BLACKS WOULD HAVE A MA,JORITY DISTRICT
THERE. AND THEY MIGHT INDEED BE ABLE TO BE USING THEIR
VOTE TO GREATER ADVANTAGE IN THIS SITUATION IN THAT
MULTI -MEMBER DI STRiCT.
A BUT UNDER YOUR DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE, YOU
ARE NOT SURE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SUBMERGENCE IN THAT
DISTRICT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A
THERE I S.
I AM NOT SURE. I I^/OULD RATHER DOUBT THAT
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A ARE YOU AWARE OF WIIAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE
POPULATION OF THAT DISTRICT IS THAT IS INDIAN?
A I BELIEVE IT IS SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD
oF--LET'S SEE--J0, l0-40. SO THERE IS A LARGE INDIAN AND
BLACK POPU.LATION AND THEN THE BLACK POPULATION, WHICH IS
LARGER. BUT NEITHER ONE OF THE POPULATIONS IS A I'{AJORITY
IN THAT DISTRICT.
a Do you KNow oF ANy oTHER MULTI-MEI4BER DISTRI
IN NORTH CAROLINA IN I^,HICH THERE IS NO ETHNIC GROUP THAT
HAS A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION?
NO.
A DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN GENERALIZE FROM THE
EFFECTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT ON BLACK ELECTION
TO THE EFFECT OF MULTI-MEMBER DI STRICTS IN WI-{ICH THERE IS
SUBMERGENCE AND IN WHICH THERE IS A CLEAR WHITE MAJORITY
POPULATION?
A I AM SORRY. SAY THAT AGAIN, WOULD YOU?
A DOES THE EXISTENCE OF A SUBSTANTIAL INDIAN
POPULATION IN THAT DISTRICT MAKE THAT DISTRICT DIFFERENT
FROM OTHER MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A YES.
A WOULD THAT DI FFERENCE BE ONE THAT YOU THOUGHT
IT WAS IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER IN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS
FROM THAT DISTRICT?
I THINK THAT THE ONLY GENERALIZATION THAT YOU
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COULD MAKE FROM THAT DISTRICT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE REDISTRICTING PLAN AS A WtlOLE AND YOU LOOK AT THE
EXISTENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THAT REDISTRICTING
PLAN THAT THAT IS A CASE IN WHICH THE BLACK VOTERS MAY
HAVE AN ADVANTAGE; AND THAT IF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS ARE
EVIL PER SE, THAT PERHAPS THOSE COUNTIES ALSO OUGHT TO
BE OR PARTICULARLY THAT GROUP OF COUNTIES OUGHT TO BE
SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTED ALONG WITH THE OTHERS.
JUDGE PHI LL I PS : LET ' S TAKE A ONE-HOUR
RECESS FOR LUNCH.
(rur pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT t2:30 p.M., To
RECONVENE AT 1:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.)
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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 1:]O P.
(wnrneuPoN,
THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED
THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
(RESUMED)
BY MS. WINNER:
A DR. HOFELLER, HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE ELECTIONS
IN MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES TO
DETERMINE }.'HETHER BLACK VOTERS S INGLE_SHOT VOTE MORE THAN
tlH I TE VOTER S DO ?
A YES.
a IN YOUR OPINION, DO BLACK VOTERS HAVE TO
SINGLE-SHOT VOTE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO ELECT BLACK
CANDIDATES IN THOSE COUNTiES?
A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN SAY CONCLUSIVELY IN
EVERY INSTANCE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SINGLE SHOT.
BUT I THINK AS A GENERAL RULE THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES.
a Now, DRAI^/ING YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTS T
EXHIBIT NUMBER 62, THE RATIO THAT YOU GIVE THERE IS
SIMPLY A RATIO OF THE WHITE REGISTRATION DiVIDED BY THE
BLACK REGISTRATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P. O. Box zEtdl
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779.3619 876.4571
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a rT DoES NOT COMPARE-*YOU DrD NOT COMPARE THE
NUI.IBER OF REG I STERED VOTERS TO THE VOT I NG AGE POPULAT I ON;
DID YOU?
A NOT IN THIS EXHIBIT.
a .TH rs EXH IBrT DOES NOT SHOW THAT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A SO THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF RATIO DEPENDS AS MUCH
ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATION IS BLACK
A5 IT DOES ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE
POPULATION IS REGISTERED; DOESNIT IT?
A THE RATIO--THE RESULTANT RATIO OF WHITE TO
BLACK REGISTRATION WOULD DEPEND UPON THE PERCENTAGE OF
ADULT AGE POPULATION AVAILABLE AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH
THE BLACKS AND THE WHITES REGISTER TO VOTE.
A BUT THIS DOESNIT SHOW THE COMPARISON OF THE
PROPORTION OF THE BLAC]< VOTING AGE POPULATION WHICH IS
REGISTERED TO VOTE TO THE PROPORTION OF THE WHITE VOTING
AGE POPULATION THAT IS REGISTERED TO VOTE; DOES IT?
A THAT IS CORRECT. IT DOESNIT.
A ALL RIGHT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: AND NO ONE ASSUMES THAT
I T DOES.
MS. WINNER:
TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
ALL RIGHT. I .JUST WANTED
BY MS. WINNER:
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a AND LOOKING AT 19B2__THE DTFFERENCE BETWEEN
198O AND I9B2--AT LEAST PART OF THE REASON THAT THAT
RATIO I,JENT DOI^/N IS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF WHITE REGISTERED
VOTERS WENT DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT I S CORRECT. BUT I N tgl4 THE NUMBER I^/ENT
DOWN. AND THE RATIO WENT UP. SO ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY
HERE iS THAT IN A YEAR SUCH AS 174, t7g OR tgz THERE WAS
PERHAPS SOME DROP IN REGISTERED VOTERS DUE TO NON-VOTING
IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THE RATIO CHARACTERISTI-
CALLY WENT THE OTHER WAY FOR THE BLACKS. AND NOW WE SEE
THE INFLUX OF NEW BLACK REGISTRATION BUCKING THE TREND
THERE.
A THESE STAT I ST I CS WERE TAKEN FROI..I THE OCTOBER
REGISTRATION FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS?
A THE GENERAL ELECTION; YES.
A THAT I.JOULD. HAVE BEEN OCTOBER IN THOSE YEARS?
A OCTOBER.
A DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, PURGES
I^JERE DONE AFTER THE PRES I DENT IAL ELECT I ONS, NOT BEFORE
THEM?
A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY ARE DONE
AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THAT IS WHY YOU WOULD
WANT TO TAKE THEM AT THE SAME TIME EACH ELECTION.
A ALL R IGHT. NOtr^I, YOU TESTI FIED ABOUT THE
UNRELIABILITY OF AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS DONE ALONE; IS
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9O85
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THAT CORRECT ?
A I BELIEVE THAT I TESTI
CASE ANALYSIS MAY NOT BE PROPERLY
THE REST OF THE CASES BEHAVE.
A BUT PROFESSOR GROFMAN
EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, BUT ALSO A
THAT CORRECT?
FIED THAT THE EXTREME
I ND I CAT I VE OF THE I^,AY
RELIED NOT ONLY ON
REGRESSION ANALYSIS; IS
A THAT IS CORRECT. AND I BELIEVE I STATED THAT.
A AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS
DONE IN CONLJUNCTION WITH AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS CAN
PROVI DE A CHECI< ON THE RESULTS?
A I DON'T THINK THAT IT COULD NECESSARILY PRO-
VIDE THE DEFINITIVE CHECK ON THE RESULTS. I THINK CER-
TAINLY ONE WOULD WANT TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT SOME OF THE
ACTUAL CASES IN THE MIDDLE AND CHECK THEM BACK AGAINST
THE REGRESSION TO SEE.,IF THE REG;ESSiON WAS BEHAViNG
PROPERLY.
A BUT IT CERTAINLY IS A WAY TO ALERT YOURSELF IF
THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS? IT IS ONE WAY OF ALERTING YOUR_
SELF AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE
REGRESSiON ANALYSIS-_IS TO ALSO DO AN EXTREME CASE
AI.IALYSI S?
A ONE OF THE WAYS TO--YES; .JUST AS ONE OF THE
WAYS TO DETERMINE THERE MIGHT BE PROBLEMS WITH REGRESSION
ANALYSIS IS TO LOOK AT THE EXTREME CASE.
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PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a
A
A CHECK ON
ANALYS I S,
BOTH WAYS ?
BUT THERE HAS TO BE__THERE WOULD PROPERLY BE
THE GREAT MIDDLE RANGE OF THE REGRESSION
WHICH YOU DONIT GET FROM THE EXTREME CASE.
a
I T CORRECT
REGRESS ION
POINTS IN
IN LOOKIt,lc AT PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S RESULTS, IS
THAT THE EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS AND THE
ANALYSIS CORRESPOND WITHIN A FEW PERCENTAGE
A
CLOS ELY.
ALMOST ALL OF THE CASES?
IN MANY OF THE CASES THEY DO CONFORM RATHER
IN MOST OF THE CASES?
YES.
A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID
NOT HAVE ANY TURNOUT DATA OR TURNOUT ESTIMATE; IS THAT
WHAT YOU SAID?
A NO. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE
SEEN FIGURES ON THE NUMBER OF BLACKS AND THE NUMBER OF
WHITES WHO TURNED OUT. CERTAINLY I KNOI.I THAT HE HAD
DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN TURNOUT IN THOSE PRIMARY
ELECTIONS AND GENERAL TURNOUT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION,
IS THERE ANY WAY TO DETERMINE THE EXACT NUMBER
OF BLACKS AND WHITES VJHO VOTED IN EACH ELECTION IN EACH
PRECINCT WITHOUT GOING AND COUNTING THE REGISTRATION
CARDS ?
NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457]l
PHOENIX, ARIZOT.IA
A IN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURE, IS IT
STANDARD FOR POLITICAL SCIENTISTS TO COUNT REGISTRATION
CARDS TO DETERMINE BLACK AND WHITE TURNOUT?
A I AM NOT SURE THAT IT HAS EVER BEEN DONE. BUT
THAT DOESNIT MEAN THAT IT ISNIT A VALiD WAY TO OPERATE.
I KNOW THAT IN TERMS OF ANALYZiNG POLITICAL DATA FOR
VOTE ANALYSIS FOR TRYING TO WIN ELECTIONS AND DETERMINE
ELECTIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES T{HEN PEOPLE HAVE GONE
TO THE VOTER REGiSTRATION FORMS AND AFFIDAVITS. SO IT
CERTAINLY ISNIT BEYOND THE REALM OF THINGS YOU COULD DO.
A BUT IT IS UNUSUAL?
A IF YOU WERE.JUST DEALING IN AN ACADEMIC
SiTUATION PROBABLY YOU WOULDNIT GO TO THE TROUBLE OF
GETTING THAT DATA.
A AND THE REASON IS THAT IT IS EXTREMELY TIME_
CONSUI'4ING TO DO THAT__AND TEDIOUS?
A AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF HOW EXTREME YOU THINK
IT IS.
a But IT woulD BE A MATTER oF GoING THRouGH
CARD BY CARD?
A YES; DEFINITELY.
A AND DETERMINING WHETHER EVERYBODY VOTED AND
I.JHAT RACE THEY WERE?
A YES.
A HAVE YOU EVER DONE THAT IN ANY ANALYSIS THAT
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YOU DID?
A NO--NOT FOR THIS KIND OF A STUDY. AGAIN, I
HAVE DONE IT IN TERMS OF POLITICAL ANALYSIS--PRACTICAL
POLITICS DEALING WITH REAL ELECTIONS. YES.
a BUT yOU HAVE NOT DONE IT FOR THIS KIND OF
STUDY ?
.. A I T DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU CHARACTERI ZE AS ''TH I S
KIND OF STUDY.II
A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE METHOD THAT DR.
GROFMAN USED FOR ESTIMATING TURNOUT?
A NO. I CANIT SAY THAT I REALLY AM.
A DID YOU READ THAT PORTION OF PLAINTIFFSI
EXHIBIT 12 WHICH EXPLAINS HOW HE ESTIMATED TURNIOUT?
A NO.
a so you CAN,T sAy WHETHER oR NOT THAT METHOD--
YOU CANTT SAY WHETHER OR NOT THA; METHOD HAS FLAWS IN IT?
A HAS WHAT?
a FLAWS ? -
A I AM SORRY. I DONIT UNDERSTAND YOUR WORDS.
JUDGE BR I TT:
THE WITI'JESS:
BY MS. I,/ I NNER :
FLAWS-_F-L-A_W_S.
OH, FLAI^,S . I AM SORRY.
A IF YOU DID NOT READ THE METHOD THAT HE USED
FOR DETERMINING TURI.IOUT AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR I,IITH TT, YO
CANNOT SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT HAS ANY FLAWS IN IT; CAN YOU
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36],9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN SAY ABOUT THE
REGRESSION ANALYSIS IS THAT IT PRODUCES MATHEMATICAL
RESULTS WHICH DO NOT MATCH REALITY. NOW, I,JHETHER HE HAS
A FLAW IN HIS METHODOLOGY OF ESTIMATING TURNOUT, I DONIT
KNOW. BUT HE HASNIT PROVEN THAT THERE ISNIT A FLAW.
a oKAy. AND yOU BASE THAT ON EXHIBTTS 16(E) AND
(F)?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THOSE TWO EXHIBITS ARE
JUST SIMPLY A MISTAKE?
A IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS POSSIBLE THERE ARE
OTHER MISTAKES IN THE EXHIBITS, TOO.
A AND CERTAINLY THERE MIGHT BE SOME MISTAKES IN
ANY ANALYSiS OF THIS MAGNITUDE--SOME MISTAKES?
A THERE MAY BE A NUMBER OF MISTAKES, INCLUDING
MISTAKES IN METHODOLO.GY.
a BUT YOU DONIT KNOW OF ANY MISTAKES iN THE
METHODOLOGY AS TO ESTIMATING TURNOUT; DO YOU?
.JUDGE PHI LLi PS : HE HAS ANSWERED THAT.
BY MS. WINNER:
a ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNoW OF ANY OR DO YOU
RECALL ANY OF PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S ANALYSIS WITH REGARD T
DURHAM COUNTY WHICH DEPENDED ON HIS TURNOUT ESTIMATE AS
INDICATED IN EXHI BITS (E) AND (F)?
A MY RECOL LECT I ON I,/AS THAT I N H I S DURHAM ANALYSI
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
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HE WAS PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT,
PARTICULARLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU HAVE THREE
BLACKS--I AM SORRY-_THREE CANDIDATES RUNNING AND YOU HAVE
ONE OF THEM h'HO IS A BLACK AND THEY ARE THE ONLY MAJOR
PARTY CANDIDATES, THAT IT REALLY DOESNIT MATTER WHAT THE
ANALYSIS IS. THEY ARE GOING TO GET ELECTED.
SO HE IS DEPENDING VERY HEAVILY, I THINK, IN
DURHAM COUNTY ON THE NATURE OF THE COUNTY ITSELF.
AND NONE OF THAT ANALYSIS DEPENDED ON THE TURN
OUT IN DURHAM COUNTY; DID IT?
I I.,OULD ASSUME THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO USE TURN-
OUT AS SOME FACTOR IN DETERMINING PROPERLY WHETHER OR NOT
I'IAKING A PREDICTION ABOUT FUTURE ELECTION OUTCOMES IN
DURHAM COUNTY. I WOULD HAVE TO READ HIS ENTIRE TESTIMONY
TO MAKE SURE THAT HE DIDNIT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
a so You .JUST. DONi T nrrqEmarR WHETHER OR NOT HIS
TESTIMONY WAS BASED ON THIS TURNOUT PART OF 16(E) NNO (T
I WOULD HAVE TO.SAY I DONIT REMEMBER.
A NOW, DO YOU AGREE THAT A STANDARD METHODOLOGY
POLITICAL SCIENCE FOR DETERMINING VOTING POLARIZATION
TO LOOK AT COP.RELAT I ONS ?
YES.
IN
IS
A AND THAT
STEPS THAT SHOULD BE
WHETHER OR NOT THERE
THAT WOULD BE AT LEAST ONE OF THE
PER FORl.4ED I N ORDER TO DETERM I NE
IS SUBSTANTIAL SIGNIFICANT POLARIZE
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779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
VOTING?
A YES.
a t'/out_D you AGREE THAT ALL OF THE CORRLATIONS
THAT DR. GROFMAN ARRIVED AT OR FOUND IN HIS STUDIES WERE
STATISTI CA!-LY S IGNI FI CANT?
A I THINK I ALREADY STATED THAT THEY WERE STA-
T iSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.
A ALL OF THEM?
A HE GAVE THE SIGNIFICANCE FACTOR OF THEI4. IT
WAS .OOOO1, WHICH }JAS THE BEST THAT THE PRINTOUT COULD
S HOW.
A AND YoU AGREE THAT THAT IS STATISTIcALLY
SIGNIFICANT?
A I AGREE THAT HIS CORRELATION BETWEEN THOSE
TI^IO VARIABLES IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.
a h/ITH REGARD TO YOUR
'=rrIMONy
ABOUT POSITION
oN THE BALLOT, COULD you LOOK AT EXHIBIT 14(D)?
A I WILL TRY AND F.IND IT HERE.
MS. WINNER: AT THIS POINT, TO RELATE
BACK TO THE PREVIOUS TESTIMONY, IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING
THAT DEFENDANTS WILL STIPULATE THAT, IN FACT, IN MECKLEN-
BURG COUNTY IN THE PRIMARY THE CANDiDATES ARE NOT ROTATED
ON THE BALLOT.
MR. LEONARD: rTIT STIPULATION IS THAT
IN THE PRIMARIES THEY ARE NOT; BUT IN THE GENERAL
F P. O. Bor 2814
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZG{AP. O. Bor 2tl8
LJ R.bloh. Nodh c.,orn. :Ior r
ELECTION THEY ARE. THAT IS, THEY ARE LISTED ALPHA_
BETICALLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION AND THE PRIMARY.
MS. WINNER:
STIPULATION__-
AS I UNDERSTOOD THE
.JUDGE pHILLIpS: (trurrnpOSING) Wrll, IF
COUNSEL ARE NOT PREPARED TO STIPULATE, LETIS DONTT HAVE
THE ---
MS. WINNER:
I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD AGREED.
(TNTTRpoSING) I AM SoRRY
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU CAN WORK OUT A
STIPULATION, PUT IT IN WRITING. AND WE WILL TAKE IT.
MS. tr,J I NNER :
BY MS. WINNER:
I APOLOG I ZE.
a LooKING AT DEFENDANTS' EXHTBIT 14(D), yOU HAVE
TESTIF]ED THAT RICHARDSON?S PLACE ON THE BALLOT COULD
HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE LOST; IS THAT CORRECN
A YES. THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND HE IS CANDIDATE NUMBER 8?
A YES.
A IS IT CORRECT THAT THE PERSON NEXT TO RICHARD-
SON--THAT IS, CANDIDATE NUMBER 7-_CAME IN THIRD IN THAT
ELECTION?
A YES.
A AND THAT THE CANDIDATE NEXT TO THAT PERSON,
CANDIDATE NUMBER 6, CAME IN SECOND IN THE ELECTION?
1448
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A
a
A
a
I AI-4 NOT SURE THAT HE DIDNI T COME IN FIRST
HE CAME IN FIRST IN THE ELECTION?
YES.
AND THAT WAY OVER ON THE OTHER PAGE, CA].,IDIDATE
NUMBER 15--WHO I BEt.IEVE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVENTH
REPUBLICAN--GOT 3,000 MORE VOTES THAN MR. RICHARDSON GOT?
A YES. I THINK YOU HAVE TO NOTE, THOUGH, OF
COURSE, THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE ON A DIFFERENT
ROW IN THE BALLOT. AND I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO RECALL
THAT MY TESTIMONY IS THAT THE BALLOT POSITION HAS AN
EFFECT ON THE VOTES RECEIVED. I DIDNIT SAY IT WAS GOING
TO BE TOTALLY DETERMINANT.
OBVIOUSLY IF IT WERE, THE TOP ALPHABETICAL
CANDIDATE WOULD ALWAYS WIN EVERY ELECTiON.
A AT LEAST IN THIS ELECTION, WHILE MR. RICHARD-
SON WAS IN EIGHTH PLACE, THE CANDIDATE WHO WAS NUMBER 7
IN BOTH THE DEMOCRATIC ROW AND THE REPUBLICAN ROW DID
SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER THAN HE DID?
A THAT I S R I GHT. BUT I I\,OULD SAY THAT .3 OF
1 PERCENT OF VOTE DIFFERENCE COULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY
POSITION ON BALLOT JUST AS WELL AS ANY OTHER FACTOR. IT
COULD HAVE BEEN THAT IF CANDIDATE NUMBER 7 WERE HIGHER ON
THE BALLOT, HE MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN MORE VOTES.
a Notr,, LOOKING AT PLAINTIFFS t EXHIBIT 14(D),
I BEL I EVE YOU ALSO TE ST I F I ED THAT RI C}IARDSON I S SUPPORToE
P. O. 8ot 2tl$
Ll Fal.roh. Nonh c.rorin. ?7ol r
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AMOI.JG BLACK VOTERS COULD EXPLA I N THE RESULTS OF THAT
ELECTION; IS TI]AT P.IGHT?
THAT IS RIGHT.
AND THE DIFFERENCE IN THE SUPPORT BETI^/EEN
BLACK VOTERS FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON IS THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN 92 PERCENT AND B8 PERCENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
ACCORDING TO DR. GROFMAI'IIS REGRESSION--YES.
AND THAT WAS WHAT YOU I^'ERE RELYING ON iN MAK
THAT ASSUMPTION?
FI ELD.
NO.
IT WAS NOT?
I LOOKED AT THE VOTES-_THE ACTUAL VOTES IN THE
a cAN YOU COMPARE WHAT PROPORTION OF THE WHITE
VOTERS VOTED FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON BY DR. GROFMANIS
ANALYSIS?
A CERTAINLY. I AM SORRY. DO YOU WANT ME---
a (lrureRposrNG) I^toulD You sAY WHAT THosE ARE?
A YES. 42 PERCENIT, ACCORDING TO HIS REGRESSION,
VOTED FOR BERRY. AND 29 PERCENT VOTED FOR RICHARDSON.
A WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH VOTE DIFFERENTIAL TO
ACCOUNT FOR THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION?
A I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE CONSIDERABLY MORE.
A AND IN FACT, I F YOU COMPARE THE VOTES THAT
RICHARDSON GOT FROM WHITE VOTERS TO THE VOTES OF ANY
A
^ P. O. 8or 28163
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONA
OTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, IN EVERY CASE THAT WOULD BE
ENOUGH VOTES TO ACCOUNT FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN THE
ELECT I ON ?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A WOULD YOU AGREE THAT ANOTHER FACTOR IN
DETERMINING ELECTION OUTCOME WOULD BE ACCESS TO FINANCIAL
SUPPORT ?
A YES.
a ALL RIGHT. NOW, MOVING ON TO EXHIBITS 1l(K),
(M) AND (o) VIHICH YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT PREVIOUSLY WITH
REGARD TO MR. POLK, WOULD YOU CONTRAST THE PERCENTAGE OF
BLACK VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR MR. POLK TO THE PERCENTAGE OF
WHITE VOTERS VIHO VOTED FOR POLK IN EACH OF THOSE COUNTIESi
A l^IHICH ESTI|'4ATE DO YOU I,IANT ME TO USE?
A THE REGRESSiON ESTIMATE?
A IN CABARRUS, IT IS 94/37.
A 94 BEING THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS?
A 94 BLACK, 37 WHI.TE. IN MECKLENBURG, IT IS
94 AGAIN AND 1I WHITE. AND IN THE COMBiNED-_THE ACTUAL
DISTRICT--IT IS 94/33.
a ALL RIGHT. DiD YOU LOOK AT ANY--I BELIEVE
THE POINT THAT YOU I^/ERE MAKING WAS THE HE GOT A HIGHER
PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE VOTE IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN
MECKLENBURG COUNTYi IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
P. O. 601 28t&
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A DID YOU LOOK AT ANY OF THE OTHER FOUR SENATE
RACES THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID THAT INCLUDED BOTH
CABARRUS AND MECKLENBURG COUNTIES?
A NOT IN REGARD TO THAT POINT.
A DID YOU LOOK AT THE PRIMARY IN THAT ELECTION?
A I LOOKED AT IT. YES.
. A DID YOU COMPARE THE I'JUMBER OF WHiTE VOTES THAT
POLK GOT IN THE PRIMARY IN EACH OF THE COUNTIES?
A NO.
A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT OF THE FIVE ANALY-
SES THAT CONTAIN THOSE TWO COUNTIES, YOU HAVE POINTED OUT
THE ONLY ONE IN WHICH THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT MORE VOTES
IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A IF I SAID THAT I HAVENIT LOOKED AT IT FOR THAT
POINT, I CAN'T AGREE WITH yOU 0N THE OTHER POINT.
A I^'OULD YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS RACIALLY POLARIZE
VOTING IN THE GENE*O'
.EL"TION
IN THE MECKLEI'IBURG COUNTY
FOR THE SENATE IN L9B2?
A POLARIZED VOTING?
a YES?
A YES.
A IN EACH OF THE ELECTIONS CONTAINED IN EXHIBITS
73 THROUGH 18, IVERE THERE ANY THAT DID NOT HAVE RACiALLY
POLAR I ZF-D VOT i NG ?
A I DO NOT RECALL SEEING ONE.
F P, O. Bor 2816
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a Now, AS
DEFINITION OF BLOC
I S THAT CORRECT?
I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU HAVE A DIFFEREN
VOTING THAN RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING;
YES.
A IS THAT DEFINITION OF BLOC VOTiNG DIFFERENT
THAN PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S DEFINITION OF SUBSTANTIAL AND
SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?
A I THINK THAT HE USES THE TERM GENERALLY THE
SAME. HOW HE DETERI'lINES WHAT BECOMES STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING MAY BE DIFFERENT
THAN MINE.
A AND IN YOUR METHOD, YOU SAY THAT YOU MUST LOOK
AT THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES TO KNOW VIHETHER OR
NOT IT IS RACIAL BLOC VOTING; IS THAT RIGHT?
WHETHER IT IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.
SUBSTANT IVELY S I GN T TT CNT'ITI
A SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT. I AM TRYING TO
DIFFERENTIATE HERE BETWEEN .THE PRESENCE OF STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFiCANT pOLARTZATION--I.E., A HIGH CORRELTION COEF-
FIC]ENT__AND',,^/HETHER OR NOT THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNI-
FICANT TO THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE IN THOSE RACES.
AND YOU S I I4PLY D I SAGREE Wi TH DR. GROFMAN ABOUT
HOW TO DETERMINE THAT?
THAT IS RIGHT.
NOtr/, YOU MADE A PREDI CT I ON ABOUT 19 8 4 AND
A
a
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH REGARD TO THE
ELECTION OF BLACK CANDIDATES TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1984;
IS THAT RIGHT?
I THINK WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THERE WAS NOT
ENOUGH DATA TO SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT DR. GROFMAN
HAD DRAWN. THERE IS ALSO SOME DATA WHICH COULD INDICATE
THAT THE REGI STRATION TREND l.IILL CONTINUE AND THAT ONE
COULD EXPECT, BASED UPON PAST RESULTS, THAT THE INCUMBEN
RUNNING FOR ELECTION I/OULD BE ABLE TO BE RE-ELECTT:D.
AND DOES YOUR EXPECTATION ABOUT 198'+ DEPEND ON
THOSE INCUMBENTS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN ELECTED SEEKING
RE-ELECTION?
NOT COMPLETELY; NO.
TT DEPENDS IN PART ON THAT?
A IT DEPENIDS IN PART ON THAT AND TO A MAJOR PART
ON THE FACT THAT IT HAS HAPPENED_-THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE
BEEN ELECTED, THAT THAT PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN PRESENT
I N THOSE DI STR I CTS.
o\
t982, S
DO YOU EXPECT TURNOUT TO INCREASE IN 1984 FRO
iNCE THAT WILI. BE A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR?
YE S.
A IS IT GENERALLY TRUE THAT iT IS NOT SAFE TO
PREDICT FROM VOTER BEHAVIOR IN NON-PRESIDENTIAL YEARS TO
VOTER BEHAVIOR IN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS?
I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH YEARS I
F P. O. 8ox 26lA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
ORDER TO MAKE A PREDICTION. I THINK THAT YOU COULD NOT
SAY, 'I I AI4 GO I NG TO I GNORE EVERYTH I NG THAT HAPPENED I N
I B2--THE PoLITICS oF NoRTH cARoLINA IN '82, THE REGIS-
TRATION SHIFTS IN '82. AND I AM GOING TO SAY WHATEVER
HAPPENED IN'BO IS WHAT I AM GOING TO USE AS THE BASIS
OF I8I+.tI SO I CANIT REALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT
PREM I SE.
a BUT yOU ALSO CAN'T JUST USE t82 TO PREDTCT
'84, SINCE ONE IS A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND ONE IS A NON-
PRESIDENTIAL YEAR?
THAT IS CORRECT.
WERE THERE ANY ELECTIONS IN WHICH YOU FOUND
SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZATION?
I THINK THAT LOOKING AT THE ELECTIONS INDIVI-
DUALLY, PERHAPS ONE COULD SAY YES. THERE WERE SOME
S ITUATIONS
A DO YOU RECALL WHICH ONES THEY WERE?
A I WOULD SAY THAT^ THE ELECTION IN DISTRICT 8
HAD A HIGH DEGREE OF POLARIZATION. AND IT MiGHT BE,
INDEED, A MARGINAL CASE.
A YOU DID NOT CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION OF THE
TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN ANY OF THESE PLACES;
DID YOU?
A SOI.IE OF THE FACTORS \^/HICH I MENTIONED AS BEING
NECESSARY TO PROVE OR TO FORM AN OPINIION OF SUBSTANTIALLY
P. O. Bor 28153
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SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARI
TO OSTAIN. AND I F ONE I{AS
ON THAT, ONE WOULD I,/ANT TO
NOT LOOK AT THEM ALL.
A .AND IN FACT, WHEN I
WEEK AND A HALF AGO, YOU SAID
ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE VOTER
THAT RIGHT?
THAT IS CORRECT.
A AND SO WHATEVER YOU
YOU HAVE COLLECTED THAT DATA IN
ZED VOTING ARE VERY DI
INDEED TRYING TO PROVE
LOOK AT THEI"I ALL. AND
FFICUL
A CASE
I DID
TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION A
THAT YOU HADN I T LOOKED AT
RETURNS AT THAT TIMEi ISNIT
HAVE BASED YOUR OPINION ON
THE LAST TEN DAYS?
THAT I S CORRECT.
YOU DIDNIT GO TO ANY OF THOSE COUNTIES DURING
THAT TIME; DID YOU?
GO TO ANY OF THE COUI.ITIES?
YES?
NO.
AND YOU HAVE NOT.BEEN SITTING iN THE COURTROOM
FOR T!-{E DURAT I ON OF THE TR I AL; HAVE YOU ?
NOT THE ENTIRE DURATiON; NO.
NOW, YOU TESTIFIED SOMETHII.IG ABOUT CONSISTENCY
MEANING PRODUCING GERRYMANDERING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT
WHAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN MEANT BY CONS I STENCY \^IAS THAT I F
ALL OF THE PARTS OF AN ELECTION DISTRICT RANK THE SAME
CAND I DATE F I RST, THAT THAT CAND I DATE I'lUST 1^/ I N ?
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 875.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O 8ox 2Etd!
lJ n.hrgh, Nonn Ctrorh. 276I
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085
779.3619 876.457 1
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2818
Ll R.blgh, Nonh Coor,n. 2761r
SOMEBODY WINS
WILL WIN THE
THAT PREMISE.
CANNOT QUIBBLE I"JITH THE PREMISE THAT I F
T N EVERY PREC I NCT IN THE D I STR I CT, THEY
RACE. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN QUIBBLE WITH
a .HoI^/ DoES THE NOTION THAT IF SOMEBODY WINS IN
ALL OF THE PARTS THEY WILL WIN IN THE TOTALITY EQUATE TO
GERRYMANDERI NG?
A ONE OF THE GOALS OF GERRYMANDERING IS TO FORE-
STALL COMPETITION. AND ONE OF THE WAYS YOU CREATE NON-
COMPETITION IN GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS IS TO PUT AS MANY
PEOPLE OF THE SAII1E TYPE-_THE MINoRITY WHICH YoU ARE
.TRYiNG TO SUPPRESS BY THE GERRYMANDER--INTO ONE DISTRICT.
AND THAT DISTRICT WILL BE VERY CONSISTENT.
a
ANOTHER ?
DO YOU MEAN CONSISTENT FROM ONE ELECTION TO
IT VJOULD MORE LIKELY BE MORE CONSISTENT IN-
TERNALLY WITHIN ITS PARTS. AND iT V/OULD BE CERTAINLY
MORE CONSISTENT FROM ELECTION TO ELECTION. THE WHOLE
IDEA IS TO GAIN A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY AND TO KEEP IT.
a Now, you sAy you DREW AN ELECTION FOR WILSON-
EDGECOMBE-NASH--A MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT FOR THE WILSON-
EDGECOMBE_NASH HOUSE DISTRICT?
THAT I S CORRECT.
a AND THAT t^lAS NOT--THE
THE ONLY h/AY TO DRAW A MAJORITY
WAY YOU DREI{ IT VIAS NOT
BLACK HOUSE DISTRICT IN
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THAT AREA; V/AS I T ?
NO.
A I I{AS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE SHAT]E OF THE
DISTRICT THAT YOU DREIV. DID Y'OU SAY THAT IT WAS SIMILAR
TO THE SHA-PE OF THE CURRENT HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29?
CAN YOU SEE HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29?
NO. I AM SORRY.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO APPROACH THE MAP?
DO YOI.' i,lEANI Ii{ OIJiLF'ORD COUNTY?
.\ i'l i) ,,; :
I COIJLD SIlOI{'.'0U, i
a
WAS THAT I T
: ;. Ciiul-:)
l i ..i'l i r/i:: TC .
NO. THAT I5 A.LL ilJCHT. YOUR PROBLEM WITH IT
SKIRTED AROUND THE EDGE OF THE COUNTIES?
IT I'IOULD SORT OF LIKE BE A PAIR OF PINCERS
COMING DOWIJ FROI.4 THE TOP ONTO THE COUNTY. I THINK THAT
IS A GOOD GRAPHIC ILLUSTRATIOT'l OF IT.
BUT TI{ERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT IT MIGHT BE
MY EXPERIENCE WITH REDiSTRICTING IS THERE
DO
ARE
ALWAY S OTHER I',AYS _.ALWAY S .
A AND YOU ARE NOT SAYING THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO
GERRYMANDER iN THAT DISTRICT TO PUT IN A MAJORiTY BLACK
DISTRICT; AP.E YOU?
A i HAVE NOT YET SEEN A DISTRICT I/HICH i WOULD
CLASSIFY AS UNGERRYMANDERED THAT WOULD FULFILL YOUR
PRECISIOhI BEPORTING
AND THANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF 2. O. gor 2alg3
tJ Breroh, No.h Jiforrn. 4761t
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REQUIREMENT IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE
ILLUSTRATIVE DISTRICT THAT YOU SHOW ON
GOES iNTO THREE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND
THE MAJOR CITIES IN THE THREE COUNTIES
DETERMINED. TO BE A GERRYMANDER.
BLACK. THE
THIS MAP WHICH
SEPARATES TWO OF
I THINK COULD BE
:.iELi- , i-,; I 1'H[ ;tECORD SHO],,
q l'lAS DIt?,:lCTEl-) TO THE DISTRI
EXHiBIT NUI,IBER B---
( I NrrRpos r NG ) (A) .
(A).
MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
NOW, PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT---
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DID THE RECORD SHOW THE
EXHIBIT TO WHICH THAT LAST STATEMENT WAS DIRECTED?
MS. ii I l.ll'!t-i? :
NUMtsE P. B (A) .
i BELIEVE IT IS EXHIBIT
rHAT
SHOWN
a
YOU EVER
A
a
THE
ON
WiTt.lESS t i..,\i.i .-,i.lii"ll
GINGLES PLAINTI I:FS I
MS . I^J I NNER :
.JUDGEI,PHILLIPS:
BY MS. WINNER:
PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT IN THIS CASE, HAVE
DONE AN ANALYSIS OF RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?
NO.
DID YOU HAVE ANY PRIOR EXPERIENCE IN ANALYZIN
RACIAL DILUTIONS IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT SITUATION?
ONLY AS iT WOULD PERTAIN TO THE POSSIBILITY O
MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE STATE OF MISSTSSIPPI.
A AND IN MISSISSIPPI THE ISSUE I,IITH MULTI-}4EMBE
DISTRICTS WAS A ONE-PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE; WASNIT IT?
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRA}JSCSIBING, INC.
lF P. O Bor 28ta
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2tta3
u R.a.lsh, |iod C.roril irltt
A NOT REALLY; NOT REALLY. IT WASN'T A ONE-
PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE. THE COURT IN MY RECOLLECTION TOLD
THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI TO DECIDE THE CASE ON ONE-MAN
ONE_VOTE. BUT MISSISSIPPI HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE
RATHER THAN A ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE ISSUE.
A YOUR PARTICIPATI.ON IN THAT CASE DID NOT INVOL
AN ANALYSIS OF THE RACIAL DILUTION IN THE MULTI-MEMBER
DISTRICTS IN MISSISSIPPI; DID IT?
A NO. MY PARTICIPATION IN MISSISSIPPI INVOLVED
THE DRAWING OF DISTRICTS WHICH WOULD NOT DISCRI}4INATE
AGAINST BLACKS AND WHICH WOULD SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS
OF SECTION 5.
a I AM GOING TO ASK yOU TO READ A PORTION OF
THE DEPOSITION WHICH I TOOK OF YOU THE OTHER DAY. MAY I
APPROACH THE WITNESS?
YES..JUDGE PHILLIPS:
BY MS. WINNER:
a START WrTH LINE -20
PAGE ].6=STARTING WITH LINE 20
LINE 6 ON PAGE 16?
AND GO ON TO LINE 6 ON
AND PAGE 15 AND GOING TO
7II--AS YOU WERE
ION OF MY PRIOR
EXPERIENCEII--I AM
OKAY
'I...SKIPPING ON TO NUMBER
GOING THROUGH YOUR SUMMAT
TEST IMONY--''THE ONLY REAL
SORRY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IISKIPPING TO NUMBER 7; IS THAT TRUE?I' THAT I,/AS YOUR
QUESTION. MY ANSI^/ER WAS:
tI...THE ONLY REAL EXPERIENCE THAT I HAVE HAD
I.JITH MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS IN MISSISSIPPI
IN TRYING TO EVALUATE THE ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE
RAMIFICATIONS OF THOSE DISTRICTS, WHICH I5 NOT
AN ISSUE IN THIS"--I.E., THiS CASE HERE.
I'. ..QUESTION: YOUR EXPERIENCE IN MISSISSIPPI
DID NOT CONCERN RACIAL DILUTION WITH REGARD TO
MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS? ANSWER: EXcEPT To
THE EXTENT THAT RACIAL DILUTION WAS AT ISSUE
IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT.
QUESTION: BUT IT WASNIT A CONSIDERATIoN
OF THE DILUTING EFFECT OF MULTI_MEMBER
DISTRICTS? ANSI^IER: THAT IS CORRECT.II
THANK YOU. NOW, YOU HAD DONE SOME ANALYSIS
OF ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA PRIOR TO YOUR DEPOSITION
A I^,EEK AND A HALF AGO; HADNIT YOU?
YE S.
A AND AT THAT
THAT RACE \.'AS A FACTOR
HAD LOOKED AT; I S THAT
YES.
a AND DO YOU ALSO AGREE
BLACK VOTERS GENERALLY INCREASES
TIME, I BELIEVE YOU HAD DETERMiNED
IN A NUI,IBER OF THE ELECTIONS YOU
CORRECT ?
THAT THE TURNOUT OF
WHEN THERE ARE BLACK
A P. O.8ox 2tl(]
Ll Rd.h6. ,{mh crdla etGlt
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CANDIDATES IN THE ELECTION?
A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN MAKE THAT STATEMENT
DEFINITIVELY. MY OPINION WOULD BE THAT THE LIKELIHOOD
WOULD BE THAT IT WOULD. YES.
MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUESTIONS.
R, E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 2:10 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A DR. HOFELLER, qID YOU ATTEMPT TO ANALYZE ANY
OTHER GROFMAN EXHIBITS WITH RESPECT TO THEIR MATHEMATICAL
ACCURACY ?
A NO.
MR. LEONARD: OTHER THAN SOME EXHIBITS,
IF THE COURT PLEASE, I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
E X A.M I N A T I O N 2:10 P.M.
BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS:
a DocToR, LET ME ASK A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS.
DID i UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERE ASKED BY THE LEGISLATURE
iIN CONNECTION WITH ITS LAST REDISTRICTING EFFORT TO
IDENTIFY THOSE CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTER POPULATIONS
IN THE STATE WHICH WOULD PERMIT THE CREATION OF SINGLE-
MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT WOULD PASS MUSTER ON THE ONE-MAN
ONE-VOTE REQUIREMENT?
PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. ior rltGl
lJ Rraagar. ,aodh Crroth. ,i il
1462
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
YOUR HONOR, THE SpECIFIC ADt,tONITION HERE WAS
TO LOOK THROUGH ALL OF THE COUNTIES IN THE STATE IN
PARTICULAR AND TO FIND OUT WHERE THERE WERE CONCENTRATI
OF BLACK RESIDENTS--RESIDENTS, NOT VOTERS--IN TERMS OF
THE COUNTIES AS A WHOLE. AND THAT BROUGHT OUT WHERE THE
CONCENTRATIONS WERE ON COUNTYWIDE BASIS, I{HICH IDENTIFIED
THE NORTHEAST.
THEN ALSO I WAS TO LOOK AT THE LARGE METROPOLI
TAN COUNTIES AND TRY AND IDENTIFY IF THERE WERE SUFFICIE
NUMBERS OF BLACK RESIDENTS WHERE ONE WOULD SUSPECT THAT
TH.ERE WAS A POSSIBLE CONCENTRATION OUT OF WHICH YOU COULD
MAKE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT.
I DIDNIT HAVE CENSUS TRACT MAPS AT THE TIME.
SO I COULDNIT SAY WHETHER THEY WERE ADJACENT. BUT AS A
BASIS OF THAT, I DID INDEED REPORT THAT THERE WERE
CoNCET.ITRATIONS IN CERTAIN AREAS, BOTH NON-COVERED AND
COVERED COUNTIES.
A I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT.IN CONNECTION WITH
THAT ENDEAVOR YOU PREPARED A MAP THAT IDENTIFIED THE
LOCATION OF THOSE CONCENTRATIONS?
A NO, YOUR HONOR. I .JUST NARROWED IT DOI'JN TO
CITIES WITHIN THE METROPOLITAN AREAS. I SAID WITHIN,
FOR INSTANCE, THE CITY OF DURHAM, THE CITY OF WINSTON-
SALEM, MECKLENBURG, THOSE CONCENTRATIONS ARE THERE. AND
THERE ARE ENOUGH BLACKS IN THE CITY AS OPPOSED TO THE
-
2. O. Eor 2al6
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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIIONA
BLACK RESIDENTS THAT MAY BE DISPERSED THROUGHOUT THE
RURAL AREAS. THE ONLY SPECIFIC DISTRiCT THAT I ACTUALLY
SAT DOWN AND DREW II,AS IN THE RURAL NORTHEAST. THAT WAS
THE ONLY WAY I COULD DETERMINE IF THE PIECES COULD BE
PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY.
BUT I CAME AWAY FROM THAT STUDY CONVINCED
THAT IN CERTAIN METROPOLITAN COUNTIES THERE WAS THE
POSSIBILITY TO CREATE SOME DISTRICTS.
A WHAT ABOUT THE MAP THAT YOU DREW IN CONNECTIO
WITH HOUSE DISTRiCT 8 IN WILSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH? WAS THA
I N CONNECT I ON I'IITH THAT ?
A NO. THAT WAS AT A LATER TIME. THAT WAS
SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.
a WHAT WAS THAT IN RESPONSE TO?
A THAT WAS REALLY IN RESPONSE TO MY WANTING TO
KNOW WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES WERE THERE.
A DID ANYBODY IN THE LEGISLATURE KNOW THAT
YOU HAD DONE THAT? -^
A I CANIT SAY. WELL, I HAD DONE THAT DISTRICT-
THE NORTHEAST DISTRICT. I CANIT SPECIFICALLY TESTIFY
WHO MAY HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LEGISLATURE.
A WERE YOU PRESENT DURING DR. GROFMANIS TESTI-
MONY IN WHICH POTENTIAL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS COMPAR-
ABLE TO THAT SHOWN ON THE GINGLES EXHIBIT 8(A), VIHICH IS
BEFORE US, WERE TALKED ABOUT IN CONNECTION WITH
F P. O. lor 2816:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457]'
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM .AND
WAKE?
YES.
a DID yOU GET A LOOK AT THE OUTLINE OF THOSE
POTENTIAL DISTRICTS?
YES. YES; I DID.
DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO THE GERRYMANDER_
ING EFFECT THAT MIGHT APPEAR IN THOSE THAT YOU TESTIFIED
TO IN CONNECTION WITH THE NASH-WILSON-EDGECOMBE?
A I THINK THAT CERTAINLY IN MANY OF THOSE DIS-
TRICTS--AND YOU KIND OF HAV.E TO TAKE THEM ONE BY ONE--
REASONABLE PEOPLE OR I WOULD SAY THAT SOME OF THEM HAVE
VERY STRANGE SHAPES AND COULD BE GERRYMANDERS. I THINK
THAT SOME OF THEM, IN FACT, END UP BEING DILUTED BECAUSE
oF PACKING IN SOME OF THOSE COUNTIES, TOO. BUT I THINK
THAT AS LONG---
a (trurrnposING) you HAVEN'T REALLY ADDRESSED
THEM, THOUGH, TO FORM A SPECIFIC OPINION OF THE KIND THAT
YOU GAVE HERE IN CONNECTION }JITH THE NASH-WILSON-
EDGE COMBE ?
I \^touLDNrT SAY THAT, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD SAy
THAT I F I WERE TO DRAW SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS I.IITHIN
THOSE COUNTIES, I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY DRAW THEM THAT
WAY. I THINK THERE WOULD BE BETTER WAYS TO DRAW THEM.
SO YOU DONIT KNOW BUT WHAT THERE MAY BE I,IAYS
OTHER, THAN THE WAYS DEPICTED WITHIN THOSE RED LINES IN
f-t p. O. &i iuGt
L-l i.l.loll Xor$ Crrolln arltt
x465
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5
PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIiONA
THOSE COUNTIES THAT MIGHT AVOID ANY GERRYMANDERING
PROBLEMS ?
A IN SOME OF THEM; YES. I THINK IN MECKLENBURG
IN PARTICULAR ONE WOULD HAVE TO DRAW VERYIIWEIRDLY SHAPED
DISTRICTS TO INCLUDE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THE BLACK
POPULATION. I THINK IN THE OTHER THREE COUNTIES THAT
DISTRICTS COULD BE DRAI''N THAT I'/OULD BE ACCEPTABLE IN
TERMS OF GERRYMANDERING.
.,UDGE PHILLTPS: THANK YOU.
MR. LEOIJARD:
QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
I JUST HAVE ONE OTHER
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2|L5 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A WHO ACTUALLY RETAINED YOU, DR. HOFELLER?
. A YOU DID.
A AND THE REPORT T.HAT YOU I^,ERE SHOwN EARLIER BY
COUNSEL AND THE MAPS THAT YOU PREPARED--WHO DID YOU GIVE
THOSE TO AFTER THEY WERE COMPLETED?
A TO YOU.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING?
MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUESTIONS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.
(l/{ITNESS EXCUSED. )
F P, O, &r 2tt(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIIONA
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,
WE HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS BEFORE }\lE REST THAT WE
ARE ABOUT TO.PRAY TOO, IF I MIGHT TAKE THOSE UP. YOU
WI LL RECALL THAT WHEN DR. WATSON WAS ON THE STAND THERE
WAS THE QUESTION OF DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 53, WHICH WAS A
PAPER THAT HE HAD PREPARED.
I ALLUDED TO THE BIBLIOGRAPHY. AND I AM
INFORMED THAT THAT WAS NOT OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. I
WOULD OFFER IT SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE COURT CON-
SIDERING THE FOOTNOTES, WHICH ARE THE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF
THE STUDY THAT HE DID THAT RELATES--AT LEAST, IN MY
OPINION--TO THE SOURCES AND DATA OF HIS RESEARCH AND THUS
HIS OPINION. I DO NOT OFFER IT FOR THE PURPOSE OF
ANYTHING WITH RESPECT TO THE REPORT ITSELF.
MS. WINNER: T HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO
THE PAPER BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE. I DO OB.JECT TO THE
FOOTNOTES BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE OUT OF CONTEXT FROM WHAT
THEY ARE A FOOTNOTE TO.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE HAVE THE TESTI-
MONY OF TI.IE GOOD DOCTOR IN THE RECORD. WE LISTENED TO
IT. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WE ARE SIMPLY BEING GIVEN
THIS AS A PART OF THE RECORD TO AID US IN }4AKING A.JUDG-
MENT ABOUT THE WEIGHT THAT WE OUGHT TO ACCORD THE TESTI-
MONY HE GAVE.
MS. WINNER: I WANT THE WHOLE DOCUMEN
F t. O.8or 2tla!
LJ i.breh. iaonn c.rdlil ,6rt
7roil c.i. r. r
.J156
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN THE RECORD, NOT JUST THE FOOTNOTES.
MR. LEONARD: I OFFER THE WHOLE DOCU-
MENT.
THE WHOLE DOCUMENT I5 ADMITTED AS DEI=ENDANTS ' EXHI BIT---
MR. LEONARD: (rrurrnPosrNG) 53.
JUDGE PIIILLIPS: 53.
(oenrruoarurs EXHIBIT No. 53 wAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, wE
HAVE HAD I,IARKED DEFENDANTS I EXHIBIT 26, WHICH T,'AS THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH CAROLINA PLAN OF ORGANIZATION.
I BELIEVE COUNSEL WILL STIPULATE TO THE ADMISSION OF THAT
DOC UMENT.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: NO OB.JECTION?
MS. WTNNER: NO OBJECTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
O BJ ECT I ON.
(OrNrruORrurs ExHIBIT No. 26 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MR. LEONARD: AND 27 IS A SIMILAR
DOCUMENT RELATING TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH
CAROLINA.
MS. WINNER:
26, 27 OR 28.
I HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO
F P. O. Bor 2tt{It
IJ i.hlctr, Xodh C..oato 2ratt
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XX
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARiZONA
MR. LEONARD: I OFFER 28.
L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: WITHOUT oBJECTIoN,
DEFENDANTSI EXHIBITS 27 AND 28 ARE ADMITTED.
(orrrmoarurs EXHIBIT NoS. 27 AND
28 WERE RECI: I VED I N rVt orruCe . )
MR. LEONARD: AND DE FENDANTS I EXH I t] I T
46 SHOWS THE MEMBERS oF THE DEMoCRATIC PARTY EXECUTIVE
COMMITTEES IN MECKLENBURG, WAKE, DURHAM, NASH AND
EDGECOMBE COUNTIES.
MS. WINNER:
MINUTE TO FIND THEM?
COULD YOU GIVE ME .JUST A
JUDGE BRITT:
THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER.
YOU SAY NO OB.JECTION IN
MS. WINNER: TTIEN I GUESS I DONIT HA
I WOULD THINK SO.
ONE.
.J UDGE BR I TT :
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
OBJECTION.
(orrrNaNrs EXHIBIT NO. 46 wAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
MR. LEONARD: AND 47 IS A LETTER FROM
KAY GADDIS, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT AT THE DEMOCRATIT
PARTY HEADQUARTERS HERE IN RALEIGH RELATIVE TO THE NUMBE
OF BLACKS WHO SERVED ON THE STATE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE.
I4S. WINNER: I THINK I HAVE AGREED TO
F t. O. lor 2tl6
LI id.len. Norrrr C.roaan 2?Cil
I 46S
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a
X
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOFIJ!\, ARIZONA
NOT OBJECTING TO IT.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
OBJ ECT I ON.
MR. LEONARD:
(oenrNoarurs EXHrBrr No. 47 wAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
AND DURING THE COURSE OF
DR. HOFELLERIS TESTIMONY WE IDENTIFIED EXHIBIT 62, WHICH
WAS THE VOTER REGISTRATION ANALYSIS. I WOULD OFFER THAT
INTO EVIDENCE.
MS. WINNER: NO OBJECTION.
. \,UDGE.PHILLIPS: THAT IS ADMITTED WITHoUT
OB.J ECT I ON. .
(oereNoRurs EXHIBIT No. 62 wAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MR. LEONARD: 6] I'JAS A DoT GRAPH THAT
HE TESTIFIED FROM
MS. WINNER: I HAVE No oBJECTIoN To
63 0R 54.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: BoTH 63 AND 64 ARE
ADMITTED WI THOUT OBJECTION.-
(oerrruoaruts EXHTBIT Nos. 6, AN
6I+ wERE REcEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MR. LEONARD: DURING THE COURSE OF-.THE
RECORD DOESN'T SHOW.THAT DURING THE COURSE OF MR.
FERRELLIS TESTIMONY THAT EXHIBIT 50 WAS AN EDITORIAL FRO
F P. O, 8ox ,ilGS
LJ i.htsNr. lrodt C&otlm 2ttI
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A RALEIGH NEWSPAPER WITH RESPECT TO THAT. THE COURT
ADMITTED IT. BUT THE RECORD DOESN'T SHOW THAT.
MS. WINNER: YOU HAVE ALREADY RULED
ON IT. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO RENEW MY OBLJECTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IS THE oBJECTIoN
IN THE RECORD?
MS. WINNER: YES, SIR.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL SOMEONE REFRESH MY
RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT WE ADMITTED AND SHOULD NOT HAVE?
MS. WINNER: IT I,IAS AN EDITORIAL OF
THE NEWS AND OBSERVER CRITICIZING SENATOR SPEED FOR NOT
TAKING CARE OF THE LAKE FOREST ANNEXATION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE WE WILL RISK
LEAVING THAT IN THE RECORD.
MR. LEONARD:
(DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT No. 5O wAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
AND EXHIBIT 51 WAS .JOE
FERRELLIS CURRICULUM VITA,.WHICH APPARENTLY EITHER I
NEGLECTED TO OFFER OR IT WASNIT RECEIVED.
MS. wrNNER, i HAVE No oBJECTIoN.
\,UDGE PH I LL I PS : THAT I S ADMI TTED WI THOUT
OBJECTION.
(DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT NO. 51 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE CoURT PLEASE
F 2, O. lor 2alG!
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WE WOULD LIKE TO OFFER INTO EVIDENCE THE DEPOSITION OF
REPRESENTATIVE CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER. WE GAVE YOU A HINT
THAT THAT ISSUE MIGHT COME ABOUT. CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER
IS A BLACK MEMBER OF THE HOUSE.
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
WE WERE GOING TO HAVE-..
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
WnRruele ovER THrs. r HAD
CARE FULLY.
MS. WTNNER:
JUDGE PHI LLI PS :
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
I.,IR. LEONARD :
sTAND IT, DOES NOT OBrEa' TO
DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM DONALD
M5. WINNER:
JUDGE PHILLIPS:
OB.JECT I ON.
WE DO NOT OBJECT.
oH, YOU DON ' T.
YOU CAN ADMIT IT.
I AM SORRY. I THOUGHT
I WAS PREPARED FOR A REA
STUDIED THE MATTER VERY
I APOLOGIZE.
WELL, IT IS ADMITTED
AND COUNSEL, AS I UNDER-
THE ADMISSION OF THE ENTIRE
MILLS--THE MILLS DEPOSITION.
YES. THAT IS CORRECT.
IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT
IF THE COURT WOULD .JUST
GOT A FEW PAPERS HERE. WE
( I Nrrn PoS I NG ) MR.
MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
GIVE
WANT
US
TO
MR. LEONARD:
A MINUTE, WE HAVE
MAKE SURE---
JUDGE BRI TT :I
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.
F 2, O. lor 2tt6s
u i..aeh. |ffit C.roem mlr
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PRECISION REPORTING'
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
LEONARD, I WAS .JUST GOING TO COMMENT THAT I BELIEVE
YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED IN MOVING ALL THE PAPER FROM YOUR DES
TO THAT OF THE CLERK. \
MP-. LEoNARD: THE DEFENSE RESTS.
(ornexsr RESTS AT 2:23 p.M.)
MS. \^'INNER:
HAVE A FIVE_MINUTE BREAK?
MAY I REQUEST THAT T'/E
JUDGE PHiLLIPS: WE WILL TAKE A FIVE-
MINUTE RECESS.
(THE pRocEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 2:25 p.M., To
RECONVENE AT 2:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.)
l-t P. O. Bor 2lra!
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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 2:38 P.
MS. WI NNER :
BERNARD GROFMAN.
THE PLAINTIFFS CALL
(wHEREUPoN,
BERNARD N. GROFMAN
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, AND HAVING BEEN
PREVIOUSLY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS
nOUIOWS: )
REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAMINATION
2:38 P.M.
BY MS. I,JINNER:
A DR. GROFMAN, I BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL UNDER
OATH?
A VES. THAT IS cORRECT.
a WERE you PRESENT IN rr-rr couRTRooM WHEN DR.
HOFELLER TESTIFIED CO;;ERNING EXHIBITS NUMBER 16(E) RNO
16(F)?
A YE S; I l,rAS .
A DID DR. HOFELLER, IN FACT, POINT OUT AN ERROR
IN THOSE EXHIBITS?
A YES; HE DID.
A DOES THAT ERROR CHANGE ANY OF THE TESTIMONY
t
WHICH YOU PREVIOUSLY GAVE IN THIS CASE?
A NO; IT DOES NOT.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
-
P. O. lor 2!tct
LJ Rr|t.tD. taonh C.rollm 2rolr
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PREGISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
MS. WINNER:
QUE ST I ONS.
MS. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
SARAH STEVENSON.
MR. LEONARD:
MS. WINNER:
MR. LEONARD:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.
(wrrrurss ExcusED. )
I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER
I HAVE NO QUESTIONS.
THE PLAINTIFFS CALL
wHo ?
SARAN STEVENSON.
IF THE COURT PLEASE, I A
GOING TO OBJECT. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT NAME BEFORE
COUNSEL UTTERED IT HERE RIGHT AT THIS MOI.,IENT.
JUDGE BRITT:
PRE-TRIAL ORDER?
IS SHE LISTED IN THE
MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. NEITHER OF THE
TWO REBUTTAL WITNESSEs ARE LISTE; IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER
FOR THE REASON THAT WE DIDNIT--FIRST OF ALL, MALACHI
GREEN WAS NOT LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER.
TJUDGE BRITT:
OBJECTED ON THAT GROUND.
wELL, YOU COULD HAVE
MS. 1^'INNER: THAT IS RIGHT. BUT WE
DID NOT OB.'ECT TO T4R. GREEN. BUT BECAUSE WE DID NOT
KNOW ABOUT HIM UNTIL AFTER THE PRE.TRIAL CONFERENCE AND
BECAUSE OF THE COURTI S ORDER, WE FELT CONSTRAINED NOT TO
TALK TO HIM.- WE DID NOT KNOW I,IHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
BEFORE HE TESTIFIED.
THIS IS REBUTTAL EVIDENCE SPECIFICALLY TO WHAT
MALACHI GREEN TESTIFIED WHICH WE DID NOT PREDICT.
*JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MEAN FoR THE WHOLE
RANGE OF HIS TESTIMONY?
MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. AND IT IS ONLY
SPECIFICALLY TO IMPEACH HIS CREDIBILITY.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I BELIEVE SIMPLY ON
A TIT-FOR-TAT BASIS IN CONNECTION WITH ANOTHER REBUTTAL
WITNESS, I RULEDTHAT WE WOULD HEAR THE TESTIMONY FROM
THE DEFENDANTSI SIDE TO RESPOND TO BELFIELD'S UNANNOUNCED
TESTIMONY.
AND WE WI LL
THE UNDERSTANDING THAT
A VERY LIMITED PART OF
THE SAME WITH THIS WITNESS ON
TESTIMONY IS TO BE LIMITED TO
GREENI S TESTIMONY.
,rr, sIR.
THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT
GREEN WAS NOT LISTED?
GREEN IS LISTED IN THE
DO
HER
MR.
COUNSELI S
PRE-TRIAL
MS. WI NNER:.
JUDGE PHI LLIPS:
REPRESENTATION THAT
MR. LEONARD:
ORDER.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS HIS TESTIMONY LISTED?
MR. LEONARD: THE PR5-TRIAL ORDER SAID:
H.'..TO ESTABL,ISH"'THE FACT' THAT BLACK PEOPLE
HAVE FULL ACCESS TO THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN
MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO
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a
ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE.'' \
MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, MR. GREEN WAS
ADDED TO THE PRE-TRIAL AND THE AMENDED PRE-TRIAL ORDER
AFTER THE PRE-TRIAL CONFERENCE. AND THERE IS A NOTE IN.
THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER TFIAT WE OBJECT TO THE ADDITION OF HIM
TO THE LIST.
TJUDGE PHI LLIPS: WELL, LET' S HEAR THIS
WITNESS.
(wne REU PoN,
SARAH BELLE STEVENSON
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY SWORN, AND
TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: )
REBUTTAI DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. GUINIER:
a woulD You
.STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?
A MY NAME IS SARAH BELLE STEVENSON.
a WHERE DO YOU LM, MS. STEVENSON?
A I LIVE AT 2OOO ST. PAUL STREET IN CHARLOTTE.
A HOI^J LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?
A APPROXIMATELY 40 YEARS.'
a Do You HoLD ANY ELECTED POSITIONS IN CHARLOTT
A YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLEN-
BURG SCHOOL BOARD.
A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY POLITICAL ORGANIZATI
PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONAF 2. O. lor 2ttei
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
IN CHARLOTTE?
A
CAUCUS.
YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE BLACK POLITICAL
A WERE YOU PRESENT AT A MEETING OF THE BLACK
POLITICAL CAUCUS ON JULY 23RD, 1983?
YES; I WAS.
WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT MEETING?
THE CAUCUS WAS CONDUCTING A VOTER INFORMATION
AND REGISTRATION WORKSHOP. AT THE END OF THE AGENDA, THE
CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS, MS. REBECCA TAYLOR, ASKED FOR
SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT A RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS
BECAUSE SHE HAD HAD SOME QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF THE
CAUCUS CONCERNING THE COURT TRIAL ON SINGLE-MEMBER
DISTRiCTS HERE IN RALEIGH.
AND SHE WANTED TO BRING THAT BEFORE THE GROUP
FOR. FURTHER CLARIFICATION AND POSSIBLY SOME ACTION.
A WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE CHAIR ASKED FOR SPE-
CIAL PERMISSION TO RAISE TI-TIS ISSUE?
THAT PERMISSION WAS GRANTED. THE CHAIRMAN
PROCEEDED TO PRESENT ROBERT DAVIS, WHOM SHE HAD APPOINTED
TO CHAIR A COMMITTEE TO LOOK OVER THE RESOLUTION. MR.
DAVIS PRESENTED THE RESOLUTION TO THE BODY. THERE WAS
SOME DISCUSSIOI'I AND SOME CORRECTIONS.
FINALLY, THE CHAIRMAN CALLED FOR A VOTE.
THERE WAS AN AFFIRMATIVE VOTE--VOICE VOTE. I CALLED FOR
A
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA
A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE OF---
q (TNTCRPOSTruE) 'COULD I INTERRUPT YOU JUST FOR
A SECOND?
A YES.
A . YOU SAID THAT MR. DAVIS WAS ASKED TO PRESENT
THE RESOLUTION. DID HE READ A RESOLUTION?
A HE READ A RESOLUTION IN ITS ENTIRETY.
MS. GU IN I ER: MAY I APPROACH THE
W I TNESS ?
JUDGE PHI LLI PS : YES.
BY MR. GUINIER:
A I SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFI-
CATION PURPOSES AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 88 AND ASK IF YOU
CAN IDENTIFY THAT?
(pUINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS
,O**" FOR IDENTIFICATION. )
A YES; I CAN.
a WHAT IS THAT? _
A THIS IS THE RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE CHARLOTTE
BLACK pOLITICAL CAUCUS ON SATURDAY, JULy 23RD,1ggr.
A IS THAT THE RESOLUTION THAT MR. DAVIS READ?
A YES; IT I S.
a Not^t, You SAID THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS PASSED.
HOW WAS THE VOTE TAKEN?
A THE VOTE WAS TAKEN BY VOICE FIRST. I ASKED
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FOR A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE I STATED THAT I FELT THIS
WAS AN IMPORTANT MATTER. THE CHAIR THEN ASKED FOR A
SHOT'/ OF HANDS. EVERYONE IN THE ROOM THAT I AM A\^'ARE OF
VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION BY RAISING THEIR HAND.
A .WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THIS MEETING?
A HE WAS..
A WHERE WAS HE SEATED IN COMPARISON TO WHERE YOU
WERE SEATED?
A DIRECTLY ACROSS THE ROOM FROM ME.
A DID YOU SEE HIM WHILE THE VOTING WAS TAKING
PLACE?
A YES; I DID.
A DID YOU SEE HIM VOTE?
A YES; I DID.
a Hol,J DrD HE VOTE?
, A HE VOTED ''YES'I BY BNISINE HIS HAND.
A AT THAT MEETING, DID MALACHI GREEN TAKE ANY
POSITION IN OPPOSITION TO SJNGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?
A NO; HE DID NOT.
MS. GUINIER:
(pausr. )
MAYIHAVEAMINUTE?
I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD?
REBUTTAL CROSS EXAM II.IAT I ON
2:45 P.M.
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.15t1
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 601 2116l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA t. O. aor 2lla
lJ thbteh. Nom C..oiln. ,otl
BY MR. LEONARD:
a MS. STEVENSON, DO yOU KNOW REBECCA TAYLOR?
A YES; I DO.
a IS SHE IN THE COURTROOM TODAY?
A .YES; S,HE IS.
MR. LEoNARD: IF THE CoURT PLEASE, I
WANT TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT--WOULD MS. TAYLOR STAND
UP, PLEASE? I AM GOING TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT THIS
LADY NOT TO LEAVE THIS COURTROOM. THIS IS A SURPRISE TO
ME. AND I MAY WANT TO CALL HER AS A WITNESS.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I DONIT BELIEVE WE
WILL HAVE TO INSTRUCT HER. IF WE SEE HER LEAVE, WE WILL
TAKE ACTION.
BY MR. LEONARD:
a MS. STEVENSON, DO YOU KNOW WHO DRAFTED THE
RESQLUTION THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE CAUCUS THAT MORNING?
A NO; I DO ft,OT.
A DID YoU SEE THE oRIGINAL DRAFT?
A YES; I DID.
A WAS IT HANDWRITTEN?
A YES; IT WAS.
a You DIDNr T RECOGNIZE THE HAr'{DWRITING?
A NO; I DID NOT.
A DO YOU KNOW A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF
FE RGUSON ?
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES; I DO.
A IS HE A LAWYER IN CHARLOTTE?
A YES; HE IS.
A DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS A LAW PARTNER ASSOCIATED
I I,I THE PRACT I CE OF LAW W I TH MS . W I NNER ?
A YES.
a Do you KNow WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS MR. FERGUSON
WHO BROUGHT THAT RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS?
A I DO NOT. MR. FERGUSON WAS NOT AT THE MEETIN
A YOU DIDNI T SEE. HIM AT ALL THAT MORNING?
A NO; I DID NOT.
a How Do You KNow THAT HE DRAFTED THE RESOLU-
TION?
A I DO NOT KNOW. I DID NOT SAY HE DID.
MR. LEONARD: WELL, I F THE COURT PLEAS
I AM GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY AS BEING
TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE AND TO THIS TRIAL. MS.
WINNER IS THE ONE WHO RAISED ON CROSS-EXAMINATION WITH
MALACHI GREEN THE ISSUE OF THE \,ULY 23RD, 1983, MEETING.
I OB.JECTED AT THE TiME THAT WHAT HAPPENED TEN
DAYS PRIOR TO THIS TRIAL WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF
SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IS HARDLY RELEVANT.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE }.,ILL OVERRULE THE
OB.JECTION. AND WE I.JILL CONSIDER CAREFULLY THE RELEVANCE
OF THE TESTIMONY.
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA
BY MR. LEONARD:
a Do you KNow wHo BRoUGHT THE HANDWRITTEN
RESOLUTION TO THE MEETING THAT DAY?
A NO; I DO NOT.
. MR. LEONARD:
QUESTIONS.
I HAVE NO FURTHER
.,UDGE PHI LL I PS : DO YOU HAVE ANYTH I NG ?
MS. GUINIER: NO REDIRECT.
EX,\MINATION 2:49 P.M.
BY .JUDGE . PHI LL I PS :
a LEr me ASK you, MA'AM: wAS THE RESoLUTIoN
PRESENTED T'IITH ANY DISCUSSION OF THE FACT THAT A COURT
CASE INVOLVING THIS MATTER WAS COMING UP?
A YES. IT WAS MENTIONED.
. a wHo MENTIONED IT?
A I BELIEVE
"'U
CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS.
A IN WHAT CONI.IECTTON DID THE CHAIRMAN MENTION
THE COURT CASE THAT WAS COMING UP?
A THE CHAIRMAN ANNOUNCED THAT SHE HAD HAD SOME
CALLS FROM MEMBERS OF THE CAUCUS ASKING HER IF THE CAUCU
HAD PLANNED TO TAKE A STAND ON THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT
ISSUE.
A I N THAT CONN ECT I ON, THEN, I T I.JAS MENT I ONED
THAT THE COURT CASE WAS COT4I NG UP?
a P. O.8or 2al6
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A I AM NOT SURE. I DONTT REMEMBER SPECTFICALLb
YOUR HONOR.
.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT. THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.
EXAMINATION 2:49 P.M.
BY JUDGE DUPREE:
A WERE YOU AWARE THAT THE COURT CASE WAS PENDING
HERE ?
A YES, S IR
a AND THAT IT WAS COMING ON FOR TRrAL?
A YES, SIR.
A WAS THIS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED MEETING OF THE
CAUCUS OR WAS IT A SPECIAL CALLED MEETING?
A IT WAS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED I./ORKSHOP OF THE
CAUCtJS.
a IT WOULD nOra MET REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THIS
CASE WAS ON THE DOCKET FOR TRIAL OR ANYTHING?
A YES, SIR. IT HAD BEEN PLANNED.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I ASK ONE OTHER
QUESTION?
REBUTTAL RECROSS EXAMINATION
2:50 P. M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING, HOWEVER, WAS
PRECISION REPORTING
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779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2tl(t
lJ nd.hrr Noffi C.rClm 27Grr
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 976.4571
Pt'loENtx, ARtzoNA
SPECIFICALLY TO DISCUSS VOTER REGISTRATION; WAS IT NOT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
A YOU DIDNIT HAVE AT THAT MEETING AN AGENDA WIT
A RANGE OF ISSUES TO DEBATE; DID YOU?
A . NO, SIR. BUT I STATED THAT THE CHAIRMAN ASKED
FOR SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT THIS ISSUE.
A AND THIS WAS AT THE END OF THE MEETING?
A YES.
I4R. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUEST I ONS .
L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU.
MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I AM
GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY, INCLUDING
THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MALACHI GREEN ON THIS TSSUE. I
THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT AS A
RESULT OF THIS LAWSUIT THIS ORGANIZATION WAS ASKED TO GET
INTO ISSUE NOW .JUST 11 DAYS AGO.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: . MR. LEONARD, WE WILL OVER
RULE THE OBJECTION. AND I,'E UNDERSTAND BASICALLY YOUR
OB.JECTION.
(wrrruess EXcusED. )
MS. VJINNER: YOUR HONOR, WE DO NOT
OFFER THIS TESTIMONY FOR ANY OF ITS SUBSTANTIVE VALUE,
BUT SIMPLY TO IMPEACH MR. GREEN.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER
A 2. O. lor 2alttl
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W I TNESSES ?
MS. GUINIER: YES. WE CALL REBECCA S.
TAYLOR.
(wneR r uPoN,
REBECCA S. TAYLOR
WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY S\^IORN, AND
TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS: )
REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAI.4INATION
2:51 P. M.
BY MS. GUINIER.:
A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?
A REBECCA STURGIS TAYLOR.
I
a WHERE DO YOU LIVE, MS. TAYLOR?
A I LIVE AT 2645 LASALLE STREET IN CHARLOTTE,
NORTH CAROLINA.
A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?
A I HAVE LIVED IN CHARLOTTE 52 YEARS TODAY.
A ARE YOU THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BLACK POLITICAL
CAUCUS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?
A YES; I AM.
A HOI,J LONG HAVE YOU BEEN THE CHAIRMAN?
A TWO YEARS.
A HAS THE CAUCUS DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF SINGLE-
MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE LEGISLATURE DURING THE PERIOD
THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CHAIR?
PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF ,. O. lor 2alct
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
!4ar,,A YES.
A APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY TIMES?
A OH, APPROXIMATELY FOUR TIMES--FOUR OR FIVE
TIMES.
A DID THAT ISSUE COME UP ON JULY 23RD AT A
MEETING OF THE CAUCUS?
A YES.
A ARE YOU THE OFFICIAL RECORDKEEPER FOR THE
CAUCUS ?
A YES. I KEEP THE STGN-IN RECORD.
a THE SIGN-IN RECORD?
A UH-HUH.
A THIS IS A RECORD OF WHAT?
A OF PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THE MEETINGS.
A DO YOU ALSO KEEP A RECORD OF VOTES THAT ARE
TAKEN AT }4EETINGS?
A ONLY WHEN
.IT
IS OTHER THAN A VOICE VOTE.
a Do you KEEP THESE RECORDS AS PART OF YOUR
OFFICIAL DUTIES AS THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE BLACK POLITICA
CAUCUS ?
A YES.
A WAS A VOTE TAKEN ON THE \'ULY 2'RD MEETING?
A YES.
A AT THE JULY 23RD MEETING? EXCUSE ME.
A YE 5. THERE I^JAS A VOTE.
F ,. O. &r 2.tll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
a WHAT WAS THE SUB.'ECT OF THAT VOTE?
A WE HAD 27 PEOPLE TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE
RESOLUT ION.
a WHAT WAS THs RESCLUTION ABOUT? WHAT trAS THE
SUBJECT MATTER?
A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTING.
MS. GUINIER: MAY I APPROACH THE
WITNESS?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY.
BY MS. GUINIER,:
A DID YOU BRING A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN SHEET
FOR THE MEETING OF .JULY 23RD?
A YES.
MR. LEONARD: MAY I SEE IT?
BY MS. GUINIER:
A DID I JUST HAND YOU A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN
SHEET WHICH YOU BROUGHT WITH YOU FROM CHARLOTTE?
A YES.
A HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE LISTED ON THE SIGN-IN SH
AS HAVING BEEN PRESENT AT THE MEETING ON JULY 2'RD?
A 3t.
A NEXT TO THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
PRESEI.,IT, D I D YOU WR I TE ANYTH I NG ?
A YES; I DID.
a WHAT DrD YOU WRrrE?
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A I WROTE-_AFTER THE SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS
CALLED FOR, I VJROTE I^JHETHER THE PERSON ACTUALLY VOTED.
I WROTE I'YES.II
A IF THE PERSON VOTED?
A . YES. IF THE PERSON RAISED THEIR HAND, I WROT
IIYESII BY THE I R NAI'1E.
a How MANY pEOpLE VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTTON FOR
S INGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS?
A 27.
A HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST THE RESOLUTION
FOR S INGLE-I4EMBER DI STRICTS?
A NONE; ZERO.
A WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THAT MEETING?
A YES; HE WAS.
A IS HIS NAME ON YOUR SIGN-IN SHEET?
. A YES; IT IS...
A HOW DID MALACHI GREEN VOTE?
A MALACHI GREEN VOTED IIYESII IN FAVOR OF THE
RESOLUTI ON.
I.4S. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUEST IONS.
REBUTTAL CROSS-EXAMINATION
2:55 P.M.
BY 14R . LEOI.IARD:
A IS THAT YOUR USUAL M=THOD OF TAKING ROLL CALL
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA
AT THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG
O RGAN IZAT I ON ?
A I DONI T UNDERSTAND IIROLL CALL.II
A DO YOU USUALLY TAKE ROLL CALL BY TAKING THE
S IGN-IN SHEET AND TJRITING 'rYESrr OR rrNOrr BEHIND PEOPLE I S
NAME S ?
A ONLY WHEN THERE IS A REQUEST .FOR A SHOW OF
HANDS.
A DO YOU SEE THE RESOLUTION THAT IS THERE IN
FRONT OF YOU? WHAT FORM WAS EXHIBIT 88 FIRST IN WHEN
YOU FIRST SAI,' IT?
I A IT WAS HANDWRITTEN.
A WAS IT GIVEN TO YOU IN HANDWRITTEN FORM?
A YES; IT WAS.
a wHo GAVE IT TO YOU?
A ATTORNEY M:LVIN WATT.
a WHAT LAW FIRM IS HE ASSOCIATED 'i',ITH IN
C HAR LOTT E ?
A THE CHAMBERS FIRM.
a '/.IAS MR. FERGUSON WITH MR.--l^lAS HE WITH l4R.
VIATT ?
A NO. I DID NOT SEE MR. FERGUSON ON THIS DAY.
a DID YOU QUESTION MR. V(ATT AS T0 WHY HE WAS
BRINGING THIS RESOLUTION TO YOU AT THAT LATE DATE WITH
RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
DISTRICTS?
A NO; I DID NOT.
A DID YOU AND HE HAVE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT A
PENDING LAWSUIT?
A NO; WE DID NOT.
A DID YOU KNOW THIS LAWSUIT WAS PENDING?
A YES; I DID.
A AND YOU KNEW THAT MALACHI GREEN WAS GOING TO
BE A WITNESS IN THIS LAWSUIT; DID YOU NOT?
A YES; I DID
A AND YOU KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE A WITNESS FOR
THE, STATE; DIDN'T YOU?
A YES; I DID.
a I./ASNTT THE PURPOSE OF YOUR OFFI:RING THAT
RESOLUTION THAT DAY TO EMBARRASS MALACI-II GREEN?
. A NO. THE PURPOSE OF OFFERING THIS RESOLUTION
WAS TO MAKE THE ISSUE PLAIN TO THE CAUCUS MEMBERSHIP--
UNDERSTANDABLE.
a you HAD No iNTENTION TO TRy TO INTIMIDATE MR.
GREEN INTO TESTIFYING HERE; DID YOU?
A OH, NO; I DID NOT.
A DID YOU KNOW THE TRIAL WAS STARTING THE NEXT
MONDAY ?
A YES; I DID.
A AND THIS WAS SATURDAY MORNING?
F P. O. Lr 2'16
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.36.t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
A YES.
a DID yOU TALK TO MR. WATT TO DRAFT A RESOLU_
TION LIKE THE ONE YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU?
A I CONTACTED MS. PHYLLIS LYNCH, WHO IS A MEMBE
oF THE CAUCUS. AND ALONG WITH MS. LYNCH, BOB DAVIS AND
MARY GILL WERE ASKED TO WORK ON A RESOLUTION FOR US. AN
THEY, IN TURN, TALKED WITH MR. WATT.
}4R.' 'LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTIIER
QUESTIONS.
EXAMINATION 2 :58 P. M.
BY .JUDGE DUPREE:
A Do YoU HAVE YoUR MINUTE BooK THERE WITH YoU?
A NO; I DO NOT.
a THAT HAS GOT THE SIGNATURES OF---
A (tNreRposING) on, r nave THE sIGN-IN.
a THAT IS wHA; I AM TALKING ABoUT.
A OH, YES.
A HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER INSTANCES IN WHICH A
SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS RECORDED IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU
HAVE RECORDED IT ON THIS INSTANCE?
A NoT SINcE I HAVE BEEN cHAIR. THERE HAVE BEEN
INSTANCES, BUT NOT SINCE MY CHAIRMANSHIP.
A THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME IN WHICH IN YOUR
EXPERIENCE THAT IIYtrSII AND IINOII VOTES HAD BEEN RECORDED I
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THIS FASHION?
A YES--BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY
CHAIRMANSHIP THAT I HAVE BEEN ASKED FOR A SHOW OF HANDS
AFTER THE VOICE VOTE.
A THIS SIGN-IN SHEET, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, WAS
ONE PASSED ALONG TO YOU?
A NO. THAT IS ONE TI-IAT I STARTED WHEN I BECAME
CHAIRMAN.
A OH, YOU STARTED IT?
A YES, SIR.
a ALL RIGHT. yOU DON| T RECALL ANy OTHER ''yES"
OR IINOI' VOTE THAT WAS RECORDED IN THE MANNER THAT YOU
RECORDED THIS ONE?
A NO.
.JUDGE DUPREE: ALL R I GHT.
E X A M I N A T I O N 3:OO P.M.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
a How LoNG HAVE YOU BEEN THE---
A (trurrnposINc) sINCE 1981--JUNE 1981.
A AND THIS IS THE FIRST MATTER THAT HAS COME
BEFORE T''E BODY DURING THAT TIME THAT LED TO TIIE TAKING
OF A VOICi: VOTE ON ANYTHING?
A A SHOI,/ OF HANDS.
a A sHow 0F HANDS?
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ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PI'OENIX. ARIZONA
A UH-HUH.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.
MR. LEONARD: I HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTI
REBUTTAL P.ECROSS-EXAMI NAT ION
3:00 P.M.
BY MR. LEONARD:
A MS. STEVENSON INDICATED THAT THERE FIRST I{AS
A VOICE VOTE, IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
A WAS THERE ANY DOUBT II,I YOUR MIND AS TO WHETHE
NOT THE RESOI-UTION WAS ADOPTED ON A VOICE VOTE?
A NO; NOT REALLY.
MR. LEoNARD: THAT IS ALL.
JUDGE PHI LLI PS: DID YOU HEAR ANY IIIICI'
VOTES WHEN THE VOICE VOTE WAS TAKEN?
. THE WITNESS: *O.
JUDGE PTIT I-I-T PS: SO YOU COULD HAVE WRITTE
'IYFSII AT THAT TIME? -
THE WITNESS: PARDON ME?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU COULD HAVE WRITTEN
I'YFS'' BY EVERY NAME AT THAT TIME; OR DID YOU THINK MAYBE
SOI4E PEOPLE D IDNI T VOTE?
THE WITNESS:
WHO DID NOT VOTE.
t,tELL, trE HAD 0NE PERSON
.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.
OR
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JUDGE DUPREE: BUT THAT WAS NOT MR.
GREEN ?
THE I^JI TNESS : No; IT WAS NOT.
JUDGE PH ILLIPS: VEP.Y WELL. THAI{K YoU
VERY MUCH.
I'1S. WINNER: MAY WE ASK ONE OTHER
QUESTION?
REBUTTAL REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3:01 P.M.
BY MS. GUIN I ER:.
A AT WHOSE REQUEST WAS THIS RESOLUTION DRAFTED?
A AT MY REQUEST.
MS. GUIN IER:
MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE COURT PLEASE,
( T rurrRpOS I NG ) I,IRy THE
I WOULD---
MS. GUINIER.:
WITNESS BE EXCUSED?
MR. LEONARD: -. YES. YES. I HAVE NO
FURTHER QUESTIONS.
(wrrlress EXcusED. )
i AM GOING TO I4OVE AGAIN TO STRIKE ALL OF THIS
TESTIMONY. I THINK--I JUST FEEL THAT THE FACTS--THAT THE
ONLY CONCLUSION THAT ONE CAN DRAW FROM THIS ENTIRE
EpISODE OF.JULy 23RD, lgBt--TWO DAYS BEFORE THIS TRIAL
STARTED--IS TO INTIMIDATE THIS WITNESS. AND I DON'T
I HAVE NO OTHER QUESTION
PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O, &r 116:l
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.457'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THINK THE COURT OUGHT TO ALLOW THIS TO EVEI'I REMAIN IN
THE RECORD.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE UNDERSTAND THE
NATURE OF YOUR OBJECTION. YOUR OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
YOU CAN ARGUE THAT TO THE HILT IN AN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE
ARE GOING TO ANNOUNCE VERY SHORTLY.
MS. WINNER: THE ONLY OTHER EVIDENCE-
PLAINTIFFS OFFER PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NUI,tBER 88 INTO
EVIDENCE, WHICH IS THE RESOLUTION.
JUDGE PHILLIPS.: WELL, IT IS ADMITTED
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
(pIaINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS
RECEIVED IN evTorruce.)
MS. VJINNER: WE ALSO HAVE PLAIIITIFFSI
EXHIBIT 89, WHICH IS A CHART OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATIO
OF COUNTIES WHICH I BELIEVE THE CLERK HAS. IT IS FROM
THE 19BO CENSUS.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:^ IT IS ADMITTED I^,ITHOUT
OBJ ECT I ON .
(pIeINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 89 WAS
RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )
MS. WINNER: THERE ARE TI.IO STIPULA-
TIONS WHICH I THINK I OUGT1T TO READ INTO THE RECORD. AN
THEN WE HAVE HANDWRITTEN COPIES THAT WE HAVE SIGNED THAT
YOU CAN PUT IN THE RECORD. THEY ARE T.IOT VERY ARTFUL.
a P. O. lot 2!163
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH. 832.9085
779-3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
THERE ARE TWO
SIGNED WHICH I THINK WILL
RECORD. AND THEN I I^/I LL
COPIES.
.JUDGE PHILLIPS:
MS. WINNER:
STIPULATIONS WHICH WE HAVE
BE HELPFUL TO READ INTO THE
GIVE THE COURT THE HANDWRITTEN
ALL RIGHT.
ONE I S THAT:
'".. IT IS STIPULATED THAT THE MECKLENRURG
COUNTY NAMES OF CANDIDATES WERE ROTATED ON THE
BALLOT IN NEITHER THE PRIMARY NOR THE GENERAL
ELECTION. NAMES OF CANDIDATES APPEAR ON BOTH
PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION BALLOTS IN ALPHA-
BETICAL ORDER.II
THE SECOND HAS BEEN TITLED IISTIPULATION TO CORRECT ERROR
IN GINGLES EXHIBIT 6(A). AND IT READS:
II...THE T4AP OF THE ILLUSTRATIVE SINGLE_MEMBER
DURHAM DISTRICT SHOUL; INCLUDE PRECINCT 54 AND
THE PART OF PRECINCT 18 WHICH IS AN ISLAND
BETWEEN PRECINCT-S 34 AND 39, AND ALSO INCLUDES
ONLY THAT PART OF PRECINCT 39 WHICH LIES
GENERALLY NORTH OF THE EXHIBIT STICKER NUMBER
1. THE LINE CUTTING PRECINCT 39 SHOULD HAVE
BEEN DRAWN ON THE EXHIBIT ON A ROAD OR ROADS
LYING BETWEEN THE RESIDENCES OF REPRESENTA-
TIVE MILLER, EXHIBIT STICKER I, AND REPRESEN.
TATIVE SPAULDING, EXHI BIT STICKER 3.,,
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
,79-3619 876.1s7'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AND I CAN SHOW THE COURT WHAT ALL THAT MEANS.\
J UDGE PH I LL I PS : I.,OULD I T APPEAR oN A
DOCUMENT ,THAT WE CAN LOOK AT LATER?
MS. WINNER: WE CAN HAVE MADE A NEW
SMALL OVER.LAY FOR THE COURT I S COPI ES, I F THAT WOULD }4AKE
IT CLEAR.
L,UDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T WE DO THAT ?
MS. WINNER: IT IS A SIMPLY JUST A
LINE THAT IS IN THE WRONG PLACE.
iJUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL YOU PREPARE IT AND
SUBMIT IT TO COUNSEL FOR THE STATE AND SEE IF THERE IS
ANY OBJECT ION?
MS. WiNNER: I WILL DO THAT.
PLAINTIFFS WOULD ALSO OFFER THE DEPOSITIONS OF SENATOR
RAUCH AND REPRESENTATIVE LiLLEY.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: iHCV ARE ADMITTED wITH.UT
OBJECTION.
MS. WINNER: AND PLAINTIFFS WOULD LIK
SOME INSTRUCTION ABOUT THE CUSTODY OF THE LARGE EXHIBIT
MAPS.
MR. LEONARD: MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT TH
JUDGE t]RI IT SHOULD KEEP THOSE IN HIS CHAMBERS.
JUDGE BRITT: THE RULES OF THIS COURT
PROVIDE THAT ONCE AN EXHIBIT IS OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE IT
BECOMES THE CUSTODY--IT BECOMES THE PROPERTY AND IN THE
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CUSTODY OF THE CLERK. THAT iS I,'HAT WILL HAPPEN TO
THESE.
MS. WINNER:
JUDGE BRITT:
THAT IS FINE.
IF THE CLERK WANTS TO AS
PERMISSION. TO PUT THEM IN MY CHAMBERS, THAT IS ALL RIGHT.
MS. WINNER:
FURTHER EVI DENCE.
PLAINTIFFS HAVE NO
(pIaINTIFFS REST AT 3:05 P.M. )
.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : WELL, SINCE T^'E WI LL BE
COMING BACK TOGETHER, WE WILL NOT BID FAREWELL TO COUNSE
I WOULD LIKE, HOWEVER, TO SAY THAT ON BEHALF OF MY
COLLEAGUES AND ME WE APPRECIATE THE WAY IN WHICH THE CAS
HAS BEEN PUT ON.
AND IT IS A MATTER OF INTEREST TO CONTEMPLATE
THAT THE NEXT CASE IN THE LINE OF WHITE RICH AND BUXTON
LODGE AND SUMNER IS LIKELY TO TUNN ON HOW WITNESS MALACHI
GREEN VOTED IN A CALL MEETING OF THE BLACK CAUCUS IN
MECKLENBURG COUNTY. BUT ST.RANGER THINGS IN HISTORY HAVE
HAPPENED.
WE PROPOSE TO PROCEED FROM THIS POINT AS
FOLLOWS: WE HAVE AN ESTIMATE FROM OUR REPORTER AS TO
THE LIKELY TIME SHE WILL BE ABLE TO PRODUCE A TRANSCRIPT
BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY FIRM PROMISE ON IT.
BUT BASED UPON HER BEST ESTIMATE TO US, WE
PROPOSE WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS TO ENTER A LITTLE
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085
779-3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
FORI.4AL ORDER WHICH WILL REQUIRE COUNSEL TO SUBMIT
PROPOSED FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND
LEGAL MEMORANDA IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PROPOSED FINDINGS
AND CONCLUSIONS ON A DATE SIMULTANEOUSLY WITHIN A TIME
CERTAIN AFTER THE COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE
TRANSCRIPT. WE ARE THINKING NOW ABOUT 30 DAYS AFTER THE
COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE TRANSCRIPT.
IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING FROM THE REPORTER THA
SHE IS AT WORK AND WILL BE ABLE--BUT I WILL LEAVE THIS
TO HER TO ASSURE COUNSEL.ON--TO PRODUCE THE TRANSCRIPT
IN SEGI4ENTS. SO IT WILL BE POSSIBLY COMING IN.
BUT IN ANY EVENT, THE TIME FOR SUBI,IISSION WILL
RUN FROM ]O DAYS AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE TRANSCRIPT
AND SUBMISSION TO COUNSEL.
WE PROPOSE THEN TO HAVE A HEARING BACK HERE
,'
IN RALEIGH, PRESUMABLY, WITHIN 1O TO 15 DAYS AFTER THE
SUBMISSION OF THE PNOPOSTO FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS AND
BRIEFS OR MEMORANDA. THE ORDER WILL PROVIDE, IF WE DON'T
FORGET TO INCLUDE IT--AND I WILL ADVISE COUNSEL NOW, IN
CASE YOU ARE GOING TO START WORK IMMEDIATELY--THAT IN
VIEW OF THE VOLUMINOUS RECORD WITH WHICH WE WILL BE DEAL
ING THAT WE WOULD LIKE THE PROPOSED FINDINGS TO BE KEYED
TO PORTIONS OF THE RECORD BY APPROPRIATE REFERENCE.
AND I WILL SAY TO YOU THAT WE ARE SHOOTING F
A DATE FOR APPEARING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN OCTOBER THE lOTH
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
AND THE 17TH OR 1BTH OR THEREABOUTS. THAT IS OUR HOPE.\
JUDGE BRITT: I WOULD .JUST COMMENT THA
WE REALiZE THAT YOU I^'OULD WANT TO SUBMIT YOUR PROPOSED
FINDINGS AND BRIEFS AND EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME.
TI=TEREFORET.AN OUTER LIMIT WILL BE ESTABLISHED. WE HOpE
YOU WILL REALIZE ALSO HOI.I IMPORTANT TIME IS TO US AND
THAT YOU WILL MAINTAIN COMMUNICATIONS WITH EACH OTHER;
AND THAT IF YOU CAN SUBMIT IT EARLIER, THAT YOU DO SO,
REALIZING THAT YOU BOTH WANT TO SUBMIT THEM AT THE SAME
TIME.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS
FROM COUNSEL BEFORE WE ADJOURN?
(NO RESPoNSE. )
(TnT PROCEEDING WAS ADJOURNED AT 3:IO P.M.)
a P. O. Bor 2tlltil
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085
779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA
CERTIFICATE
I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT
THE PRECEDING 189 PAGES REPRESENT A
TRUE AND ACCURATE TttANSCRI PT OF THE
PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH
CAROLINA, ON WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983.
THIS, THE 22ND DAY OF AUGUST, 1981.
/,
[/o B. BUSH, cvR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
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