Trial Transcript Volume 8

Public Court Documents
August 3, 1983

Trial Transcript Volume 8 preview

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  • Case Files, Thornburg v. Gingles Hardbacks, Briefs, and Trial Transcript. Trial Transcript Volume 8, 1983. 2f00126f-d992-ee11-be37-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/ebb87866-ef95-4257-8659-8a7964d37236/trial-transcript-volume-8. Accessed July 16, 2025.

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH

COURT

CAROL I NA

RALEIGH DIVISION

RALPH GINIGLES, ET AL., )
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Bt-203-c r v-5

RUFUS EDMISTEN, ETC.,
ET AL.,

ALAN V. FUGH , Er Al-. ,

81-1066-CrV-5

.JAMES B.
ET AL.,

JOHN .J.

ALEX K.
ET AL.,

HUNT, JR. , ETC.,

CAVANACH, ET AL.

82-545-CrV-5

BROCK, ETC. ,

DEFENDANTS.

TR. I AL BE FORE

THE HONORABLE J. DICKSON

THE HONORABLE FRANKLIN T.

THE HONORABLE W. EARL

PHILLIPS

DUPREE, JR.

BRITT

PREClSION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 8or 2lld!
lJ R.btoh, nonh c.rorril z70ll



AT RALE I GH : WF:t)\lE SDAY, AUGU ST 3 , 1g B j

VOLUME 8

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. Bq rrGC
lJ iddeh. tbnh caroatn 2nrr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

APPEARANCES

ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

LESLIE .J. WINNER, ESqUIRE
CHAMBERS, FERGUSON, WATT, WALLAS, ADKINS 6 FULLER
SUITE 730, EAST INDEPENDENCE PLAZA
95 1 SOUTH INDEPENDENCE BOULEVARD
CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROL I NA 2.8202

ARTHUR .'. DONALDSON, ESQUIRE
BURKE, DONALDSON, HOLSHOUSER 6 KENERLY
309 NORTH MAIN STREET
SALISBURY, NORTH CAROLINA 28144

ROBERT N. HUNTER, JR., ESQrrIitE
POST OFFICE BOX 3245
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA 27402

LANI GUINIER, ESQUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, INC.
1O COLUMBUS CIRCLE
SUITE 2O3A
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019

. ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

JERRI S LEONARD,'ESQUIRE
KATHLEEN HEENAN MCGUAN, ESQUIRE
900 17TH STREET, N.W.
IJASHINGTON, D. C. 20O06

JAMES WALLACE, JR., ESQUIRE
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROL I NA DEPAR'TI.4EI{T OF .JUST I CE
POST OFFICE BOX 629
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27602

- 
P. O. lor 2llAt

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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 8r6.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZOI.IA

TABLE OF CONTENTS

VOIRWITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS EXAM DIRE

ALLEN ADAMS

By MR. LEONARD L37t-t342 1364_1366
I 343-1 I 44

BY MS. WINNER 1144-1164 1342_t34

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS 136b-1368

THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER

BY MR. LEONARD 1369-1+19 1461
14b 5

BY MS. WINNER 1419-1461

BY JUDGE PHiLLIPS 14b1-1465

REBUTTAL WITNESSES

EESNABq [!. GROFMAN (NECALLED)

BY MS. WINNER I473-I474

SARAH BELLE STEVENSON

BY MS. GUINIER 1I+76 -LU,,

BY MR. LEONARD .: t47g-r482 1483_1r+Er+

BY tJ UDGE PH I LL I PS

BY .JUDGE DUPREE

REBECCA S. TAYLOR

1481-1t+81

14ul

BY MS. GUINIER 1+85-1488 1494

BY MR. LEONARD 1488-1491

BY.JUDGE DUPREE

BY JUDGE PHILI.IPS

1+91-1t+92

t492- 1494

A P, O.8or 1trltl
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TABLE OF CONTENTS (COruT I NUED)

EXHIBITS

NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED RECE IVED

PLAINTIFFS

88

89

DE FENDANTS

26

27

28

36

t+6

47

50

. 51

53

55

62

63

6t+

RESOLUTION 1478

VOTING AGE POPULATION CHART

1t+95

1495

DEMOCRATIC PLAN OF

DOCUMENT

DOCUMENT

HOFELLER RESUME

ORGANIZATION 1+67

146 8

146 B

1377

1468

146 9

1t+70

1470

14b7

133t

14b 9

146 9

146 9

r37 2

DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES

LETTER

ED I TOR IAL

FERRELL RE.SUME

DOCUMENT

ADVERTI SEMENT

ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRATION
DATA

SCATTERGRAM--WAKE COUNTY
SHERI FF ELECTION
SCATTE RGRAM- -W I NSTON -SALE M

CITY COUNCIL ELECTION

1326

1417

L4t /

PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. aor 2t16
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PRECISICN REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FURTHER PROCEEDINGS

THIS CAUS:E CAME ON FOR FURTHER

TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.

DICKSON PHILLIPS, UNITED STATES

C I RC U I T .JUDGE; THE HONORABLE FRANKL I N

T. DUPREE, JR., UNITED STATES CHIEF

DI STRI CT .JUDGE; AND THE HONORABI-E

W. EARL BRITT, UNITED STATES DISTRICT

LJUDGE, AT RALE I GH, NORTH CAROL I NA, ON

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983, AT 9:00 A.M.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY PROCEED.

(wHrRrueoru,

ALLEN ADAMS

THE WITNESS ON THE STAI{D AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIE; FURTHER AS FOLLOVIS:)

" * u t',F=lrilulr' * o I' o *

BY MR. LEONARD:

A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, YOU HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY

SWORN. TELL THE COURT.BRIEFLY WHAT IS THE GENESIS OF

CHAPTER I, WHICH IS THE PLAN FOR REDISTRICTING FOR THE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GENERAL ASSEI'IBLY OF NORTH

CAROLINA THAT IS IN CONTENTION IN THIS COURT.

F P. O. Bor 2tlai
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHCENIX. ARIZONA

MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO

WAS THETHE REPETITIVENESS. REPRESENTATIVE LILLEY

CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE AND TESTIFIED TO THAT. REPRE-

SENTATIVE ADAMS, AS I UNDERSTAND-.OR AT LEAST HIS

TESTIMOTJY HAS NOT SHOWN HE WAS EVEN ON THE COMMITTEE.

WE HAVE STIPULATED TO THE GENESIS OF IT. THE

CHRONOLOGY IS ALL SET OUT.

MR. LEONARD: WE HAVE HAD NO TESTIMONY

AS TO ANY OF THE DETAI LS AS TO HOW THE PLAN EVOLVED, I F

THE COURT PLEASE. IF THIS WITNESS KNOWS, I AM ASKING HIM

IF HE CAN TESTIFY TO THAT.

JUDGE PHi LLI PS :- OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: WELL, THE CONSTITUTION

REQUIRED THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO REAPPORTION AFTER EACH

FEDERAL DECENNIAL CENSUS. THE SPEAKER APPOINTED

CO},II'1ITTEES. THE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE WAS

CHARGED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO COME UP WITH SOME

PLANS. AND IT SEEMS LIKE WE MET ABOUT EVERY MONTH ON THE

NEW PLAN

THE ACTUAL PLAN THAT EVOLVED--I TAKE IT THAT

IS THE ONE THAT IS THE LAW NOW--IN THE LAST SESSION CAME

ABOUT BECAUSE THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD SAID THAT THEY

WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH ONE SORT OF FUNNY DISTRICT IN

CUMBERLAND COUNTY.

MS. I.J I NNER : I OBJECT TO WHAT THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAID AND MOVE TO STRIKE THAT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.

THE I,JITNESS: I MIGHT ADD WHEN THE

!,USTICE DEPARTMENT I{AS--:WE WERE IN CONTACT WITH THEM

THROUGHOTJT THI S PROCESS.

BY I'IR. LEONARD :

LET ME INTERRUPT TO ASK YOU SOME QU::STIONS

WITH RESPECT TO THAT. DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN MEETINGS

AND NEGOTIATIONS I^/ITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?

YES. AFTER WE PASSED ONE OF THE PLANS--I THI

IT WAS THE ONE IN FEBRUARY; IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONE

IN OCTOBER--THE SPEAKER ASKED REPRESENTATIVE DAN BLUE

AND MYSELF TO GO TO WASHINGTON AND MEET WITH THE REPRE-

SENTATIVES OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO EXPLAIN TO THEM

THE THEORY BEHIND THE PLAN.

. AND ACTUALLY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND MYSELF

HAD BEEN THE ONES TO WNITT THAT PLAN AT THE MIDNIGHT HOUR

AFTER THE COMMITTEE HAD COI.TE UP WITH ONE THAT WE FELT WAS

ENTIRELY UNSATISFACTORY. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE ASKED

ME TO HELP HIM GET HIS PLAN ENACTED. AND WE DID. AND

THEN AFTER IT WAS ENACTED, THE SPEAKER ASKED US TO GO TO

WASHINGTON AND TALK TO THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. AND WE

DID. WE HAD A DAY-LONG CONFERENCE WITH THEM.

a oN How MANY OCCASIONS DID YOU GO T0 WASHINGTON

TO DISCUSS THE QUESTION WITH THE.JUSTiCE DEPARTYENT?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THER E

WENT

A I WENT ONE TIME. I DIDN'T GO THE SECOND TIM

WAS A SECOND TRIP WI{ERE A NUMBER OF LEGISLATORS

TO h'ASHINGTON.

DURING THE COURSE OF THE MEETING THAT YOU WERE

PRESENT AT, WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE T,\KE

WITH RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A HE SAID IN THE LARGER COUNTIES THAT SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICTS DILUTED THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOTERS.

MS. WINNER: OBJECTION AND I4OVE TO

STRIKE

JUDGE PHI LLI PS:

BY MR. LEONARD:

OVERRULED.

A NOW, THERE CAME A TIME WHEN THE COMMITTEE AND

THOSE OF YOU WHO NEGOTIATED WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

REACHED AN AGREEMENT I^IITH RESPECT TO THE COVERED COUNTIES

I S .THAT ACCURAT E ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THEN DID YOU SET ABOUT ATTEMPTING TO

FINALIZE THE REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO THE NON-COV

COUNTIES?

A

a

RESPECT TO

ALSO.

YES.

DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS WITH

THAT QUESTION?

YES. AND I ATTENDED THE COMMITTEE MEETINGS

H P. O, &r 2!16
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PRECISlON REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE PARTICIPATE IN THOSE

DISCUSSIONS?

PANTS.

AUTHOR

YES. HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE PARTICI-

HE WAS ON THE COMMITTEE AND ACTUALLY WAS THE

OF MOST OF THE PLANS THAT WERE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERE

WHAT POSITION DID REPRESENTATIVE BLUE TAKE WIT

RESPECT TO SINGLE VERSUS MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN

MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH, DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES?

MS . I.I I NNER : YOUR HoNOR, I OBJECT.

REPRESENTATIVE BLUE LIVES IN WAKE COUNTY. HE IS CLEARLY

SUBJECT TO SUBPOENA. IF THE DEFENDANTS WOULD LIKE TO

PROVE WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THINKS, THEN THE APPRO-

PRIATE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO CALL REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND

ASK HI M, NOT TO ASK SOMEBODY ELSE T'/HAT REPRESENTATIVE

BLUE THINKS, THUS DEPRIVING US OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO

CROSS-EXAM INE REPRESENTATIVE BLUT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IF MR. ADAMS CAN

TESTIFY AS TO HIS DIRECT FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE WHAT POSI-

TION I4R. BLUE TOOK ON THI S MATTER, IT SEEMS TO ME IT IS

ADMISSIBLE.

MS. WINNER: AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT

TESTIMONY I S FOR THE TRUTH OF I{HAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE

THOUGHT. THAT IS, THEY ARE OFFERING I^'HAT REPRESENTATIVE

BLUE SAID AS EVIDENCE OF WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGH

THAT IS, FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER AND FOR NO OTHER

F P. O. 0or ,lGt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REASON, I^JHICH HAS TO BE HEARSAY.

MR. LEONARD: JF THE CoURT PLEASE,

COUNSELIS POSITION ON THAT IS OBVIOUSLY ERRONEOUS. THIS

IS A LEGISLATIVE BODY. LEGISLATORS ACT FROM WHAT THEY

PERCEIVE.. AND IN THIS CASE, THE PERCEPTION OF THIS

LEGISLATOR, WHO WAS A LEADER IN THE GENERAL ASSEI4BLY,

WHO IS WHITE IN A WHITE DOMINATED BODY, I,JHERE THE

COMPLAINT IN THI S ACTION CIIARGES DISCRI14INATION BY THIS

BODY--THIS LEGISLATORIS PERCEPTION OF WHAT BLACK PEOPLEIS

POSITIONS WERE IS ABSOLUTELY MATERIAL. IT IS PROBABLY

THE MOST MATERIAL PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS LAWSUIT.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVING MR.

REPRESENTATIVE BLUEIS ATTITUDE

WELL, WE WILL ADMIT IT

ADAI'ISI PERCEPTION OF

ON THE MATTER IN ISSUE.

AND NOT FOR THE TRUTH

OF

MS. WINNER:

WHAT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE THOUGHT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: FOR THE LII,lITED PURPOSE

STATED.

BY MR. LEONARD:

DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION?

YES. I CAN GIVE YOU FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS

OF THE LEGISLATURE HIS ATTITUDE. WHEN REPRESENTATIVE

SPAULDING ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE MADE THE MOTION TO

CARVE OUT BLACK DISTRICTS IN FORSYTH, WAKE AND MECKLEN-

BURG COUNTIES AND AS YOU HAVE HEARD, LEFT OUT DURHAM

a

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COUNTY, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE STOOD ON THE FLOOR OF THE

HOUSE AND MOVED--MADE A VERY NICE STATEMENT WHY THAT WAS

A BAD IDEA--AND MOVED THAT THAT MOTION DO LIE UPON THE

TABLE . AND I T WAS OVE RWHE LM I NGI.Y;

.AND I MIGHT ADD THAT THE OTHER BLACK IN THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY, MR. CREESY, VOTED WITH MR. BLUE.

NOW, WHEN A MEMBER MOVES TO LAY A PROPOSAL ON

THE TABLE, WHAT HAPPEI'IS TO IT IF THAT MOTION PREVAILS?

A WELL, ir KILLS IT. BUT IT ALSO IS SORT OF--

IT MEANS THAT IT IS NOTWOP.THY OF CONSIDERATION AND FURTI.E

DEBATE. IF YOU ARE TJUST AGAINST AN'AMENDMENT, YOU

JUST SPEAK AGAINST IT AND LET IT TAKE ITS COURSE. WHEN

YOU MOVE THAT IT LAY UPON THE TABLE, THAT MEANS THAT IN

YOUR OPINION IT IS SORT OF FRIVOLOUS,AND I5 NOT WORTHY OF

FURTHER DEBATE, BECAUSE A MOTION TO LAY UPON THE TABLE

CUTS OFF DEBATE. ALSO, WHEN IT PASSES, THEN IT TAKES

TWO-THIRDS TO RECONSTOTN IT.

HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN DAN BLUE?

A WELL, HE WAS AN ASSOCIATE IN OUR LAW

1972, I THINK--MAYBE 173. SO IT HAS BEEN OVER

A IS DAN BLUE AN AMERICAN WHO IS ALSO

MALE ?

FIRM IN

TEN YEARS.

BLACK AND

A YES.

A WHEN

RE PRESENTAT I VES

HE IS

DID HE

I N WAKE

FROM ROBESON

FIRST RUN FOR

COUN TY ?

COUNTY.

THE HOUSE OF

- 
P. O. Bor irttGl

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36',t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WHEN REPRESENTATIVE BOB FARMER I^/AS APPOINTED

TO THE SUPERIOR COURT BENCH, THERE WAS A VACANCY. AND

IT WAS TO BE FILLED BY THE DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

WILMA--NOW SENATOR WILMA WOODARD_-HAD LINED UP MOST OF

THE VOTES.. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AT THAT TIME RAN--WE

DISCUSSED THIS, SO I GUESS IT IS ALL RIGHT--IN ORDER TO

GET HIS NAME ASSOCIATED WITH THE OFFICE.

i AND SENATOR WOODARD GOT THE VOTE OF THE

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. HE RAN THE NEXT TIME, WHICH WOULD

HAVE BEEN IN 1978

A BY ''HE, '' DO YOU MEAN REPRESENTAT I VE BLUE ?

A REPRESENTATIVE BLUE.

A WAS THAT HIS FIRST RACE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE?

A RIGHT. AND HE RAN WITHIN 1OO VOTES OF THE

SIX WINNERS IN THE PRII.4ARY. I THINK HE RAN SIXTH-.I MEAN

SEVENTH. AND REPRESENTATIVE MUSSTUWTTTTT RAN EIGHTH.

NOW, IN THAT ELECTION I THINK THERE WERE FIVE INCUMBENTS;

OR THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SIX. BUT IT WAS NOT AN OPEN

FIELD.

HE RAN AGAIN IN 1982. NO. EXCUSE ME. IN 178

HE RAN SEVENTH FOR SIX SEATS. AND IN '80 HE RAN AND WON

THE SIXTH SEAT AND WAS RE_ELECTED IN 1982.

A WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHER

CANDIDATES IN THE PRIMARY IN THE 1982 ELECTION?

A HE RAN FIRST.

F P. O. Bd 2alB
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PRECISlON REPOBTING
AND TRANSCFIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND WHERE DID HE RUN WITH RESPECT TO THE

CANDIDATES IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU RECALL?

A HE WAS EITHER SECOND OR. THIRD. I THINK HE WAS

SECOND. I THINK RUTH COOK WAS FIRST. AND HE WAS SECOND.

BUT I AM NOT SURE.

a HAVE yOU HAD OCCASIONS TO WORK CLOSELY WITH

REPRESENTATIVE BLUE SINCE THE TWO OF YOU HAVE SERVED IN

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

A YES. HE SITS RIGHT BESIDE ME.

A HAVE YOU WORKED WITH HIM ON LEGISLATION?

A ALL THE TIME--ALMOST EVERY DAY.

A WHAT OPPORTUNITIES HAVE YOU HAD TO OBSERVE

REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN THERE WERE ISSUES WHICH HAD SOME

RACIAL ASPECTS TO THEM?

A WELL, THERE ARE NOT MANY OF THOSE THAT COME UP

BUT. WHEN THEY DO, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS ALWAYS IN THE

FOREFRONT REPRESENTING THE--AND THE REST OF THE DELEGA.

TION EXPECTED THAT. HE WAs THE SPOKESMAN ON THOSE TYPE

OF I SSUES.

a SPoKESMAN FOR WHOM?

A SPOKESMAN FOR OPPOSITION ON THAT ISSUE.

A DID YOU AT ANY TIME OBSERVE THAT REPRESENTA-

TIVE BLUE wAS INTIMIDATED WHEN IT CAME TO ISSUES THAT HAD

ANY RACIAL SIGNI FICANCE?

A ABSOLUTELY NOT--JUST THE OPPOSITE.

F P. O. &r i|lt(!
LJ R.blch, Nonh Crrofln. 2r!tl



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND THANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DID YOU HEAR REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE'S

TESTIMONY IN THIS COURTROOM A FEW DAYS AGO?

YES; I DI D.

a WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT TESTTMONY WITH

RESPECT TO.THE QUESTION OF INTIMIDATION OF BLACK LEGIS-

LATORS IN THE LEGISLATURE ON ISSUES THAT HAVE RACIALLY

IDENT I FIABLE CONNOTAT IONS?

MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO REPRESENTA_

TIVE ADAMS TESTIFYING AS TO THE STATE OF }4IND OF OTHER

LEGISLATORS OTHER THAN PERHAPS REPRESENTATIVE BLUE.

JUDGE PHi LLIPS:

THE WITNESS:

OVERRULED.

IT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE-

THAT LEGISLATORS FROM, AS REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE CALLED

IT, MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS WERE INTIMIDATED IN ANY WAY

IN REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS OF BLACK PEOPLE AS THEY

PERCE I VED I T. THEY WERE .JUST AS OUTSPOKEN AS MEMBERS

FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS--IN SOME CASES, MORESO.

BY MR. LEONARD: -

a I ASK yOU TO LOOK AT DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT 55

AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT EXHIBIT?

(ornrnoRNTS EXHIBIT NO. 55 WAS

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )

A YES. THAT WAS AN AD THAT WAS CIRCULATED

THROUGHOUT WAKE COUNTY BY THE WAKE COUNTY REPUBLICAN

PARTY IN 19__EITHER '76 OR 178. I THINK IT WAS IN'78.o
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A IS THIS THE ORIGINAL OF THAT?

A THAT IS IT.

MR. LEONARD: IF COUNSEL HAS NO

OBJECTION, THIS IS A FRAMED COPY THAT CAME FROI4 THE

WITNESSI LIBRARY. AND I WONDER IF COUNSEL WOULD AGREE

TO ACCEPT A PHOTOCOPY OF IT?

MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO OBTJECTION TO

THE PHOTOCOPY RATHER THAN THE ORIGINAL. I DO OBJECT TO

THE EXHIBIT. IF YOU ARE OFFERING IT, I WILL STATE THE

REASON. ARE YOU OFFERING THE EXHIBIT?

MR. LEONARD: I DONIT THINK I HAVE

QUALIFIED IT YET. I WILL TRY TO.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a DID yOU COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE ORTGINAL

OF THAT DURING A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN?

. A YES. I GOT IT IN MY NEWSPAPER.

)GE BRITT: I NOTICE THAT IS NOTJUT

LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, COUNSEL.

MR. LEONARD: IT IS NOT, YOUR HONOR,

BECAUSE IT CAME TO OUR ATTENTION ONLY WHEN I.IE INTERVIEWE

REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS AFTER PLAINTIFFS BEGAN PUTTING IN

THESE POLITICAL ADVERTISING WITH PICTURES ON THEM. WE

HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO ANTICIPATE THAT SPECIFICALLY. I

I,IOULD OFFER EXHIBIT 55.

MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, DEFENDANTS

F P. O, Bor 2tlAl
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HAVE HAD ACCESS TO REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS FROM THE ENTIRE

PENDENCY OF THTS LAWSUIT. THE FACT THAT THEY DID NOT

TALK TO HIM TO FIND OUT WHAT EXHIBITS HE MIGHT HAVE UNTIL

THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY SEEMS TO TOTALLY SUBVERT THE

PURPOSE OF THE PRE_TRIAL ORDER.

NOT ONLY HAVE I BEEN HANDED THIS EXHIBIT

YESTERDAY, OI.ILY BECAUSE I NOTICED SINCE THE LAST EXHIBIT

I^'AS 56 THAT THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A 55 ALSO THAT I HADNIT

RECEIVED, BUT THIS MORNING I HAVE BEEN HANDED A WHOLE

STACK OF OTHER EXHIBITS FROM REPRESENTATIVE ADA}4S WHICH

i HAD NO NOTICE OF BEFORE THIS MORNING.

NOW, NONE OF THESE EXHIBITS ARE OF RECENT

ORIGIN. THIS IS FROM 1976. THE OTHERS HAVE DATES

BETWEEN tg7 G Ar.rD 1g 8 2 . NorlE oF THEM wERE puBL i snEo LAST

WEEK. IF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER HAS ANY MEANING, IT SHOULD

MEAN THAT YOU MUST TA:K TO YOUR WITNESSES IN ADVANCE AND

FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR EXHIBITS ARE AND GIVE THE OTHER

SIDE A COPY. THAT IS THE FIRST OBJECTION.

ON SUBSTANTIVE GROUNDS, I FAIL TO SEE THE

RELEVANCE OF AN AD T.JHICH SHOWS..AND UNLESS THERE IS SOME

TESTIMONY THAT SAYS WIJY THI S AD I S EVEN I4ARGINALLY

RELATED TO THIS CASE, I CANIT IMAGINE THAT IT IS RELE-

VANT. IT IS ALSO HEARSAY.. IF IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF

ESTABL I SH I NG I^/HAT THE REPUBL I CAN PARTY THI NKS, THEN THAT

I S HEARSAY.

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

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PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. LEONARD: MAY I BE HEARD? THE

PLAINTIFF HAS INTRODUCED INTO THIS CASE THE TENUOUS

PROPOSITION THAT THE USE OF PICTURES IN CAMPAIGN ADS IN

NORTH CAROLINA IS A PHENOMENON THAT WHITES USE WHEN THEY

ARE RUNNING AGAINST BLACKS IN ORDER TO INTRODUCE RACIAL

OVERTONES INTO THE CAMPAIGN.

NOW, I HAVE A STACK OF I DON' T KNOW HOW MANY

EXHIBITS HERE THAT THIS WITNESS, WHO HAS BEEN A LONGTIME

PARTICIPANT IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AT LEAST IN WAKE

COUNTY, HAS COLLECTED. THIS ALL CAME UP DURING THE DIR

TESTIMONY BY THE PLAINTIFF.

I DONI T INTEND TO OFFER THE REST OF THESE ADS.

I OFFER THEM ONLY TO PROVE THAT IN POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS

IN THIS STATE, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL--INDEED, IT IS USUAL--

FOR THE OPPOSITION TO PUBLISH PICTURES OF ITS OPPONENTS--

THAT THAT SHOULD NOT BE PERCEIVED TO BE A RACIAL PRACTICE

THAT IT IS COMMON PRACTICE.

NOW, IF COUNSEL-WANTS TO STIPULATE TO THAT,

I^IE CAN END THIS, WHICH IS A PERIPHERAL--I ADMIT A

PERIPHERAL ARGUMENT. BUT IT HAS BEEN INJECTED INTO THE

CASE IN ORDER TO BRING EMOTION AND PREJUDICE INTO THIS

RECORD. THAT IS I.JHY SHE PUT IT IN HERE.

.JUDGE BRI TT: ADDRE S S

RAISED, COUNSEL. YOU HAVENIT TALKED AT

PRE-TRIAL ORDER AND YOUR LACK OF MEETING

THE ISSUE SHE

ALL ABOUT THE

THE REQUIREMENTS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OF THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER, I,IHICH IS THE GROUNDS oF HER

OBLJECTION.

MR. LEONARD: WELL, WITH RESPECT To

THAT, IF THE COURT PLEASE, WE SIMPLY DID NOT ANTICIPATE

THAT THIS KIND OF EVIDENCE WAS AVAILABLE UNTIL COUNSEL

FORGED INTO THIS IN THE CASE IN CHIEF.

JUDGE BRITT:

PRE-TRIAL EXHIBITS THAT WERE

MR. LEONARD:

WITNESS DID NOT REALIZE THAT

UNTIL HE HEARD IT AND SAW IT

IT IS MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING.

PRE.JUDICIAL ISSUE.

DID YOU NOT REVIEW HER

MARKED AND GIVEN TO YOU?

YES; WE DID. BUT THIS

HE HAD THAT KIND OF EVIDENCE

IN THE COURTROOM. I THINK

BUT IT IS OBVIOUSLY A

WE PLEADED WITH THE COURT NOT TO LET THOSE

EXHIBITS IN TO BEGIN WITH ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE

HEARSAY AND THAT THEY DONTT PROV; ANYTHING. THE COURT

LET THEM IN. NOW, WHAT I AM SAYING, IF YOU ARE GOING TO

LET THAT KII.ID OF STUFF IN THE RECORD WHICH HAS PREJUDICI

TENDENCIES, THEN LET US REBUT IT.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : DO I UNDERSTAND THAT

COUNSEL HAS INDICATED AN INTENTION ONLY TO OFFER ONE OF

THESE?

MR. LEONARD: YES, YOUR HONOR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THEN T'IE WILL ADMIT THE

ONE THAT IIAS NOT'/ BEEN TENDERED.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

(oenrNoaNrs EXHIBIT No. 55 WA

RECEIVED IN rvIorNcr. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

q NOW, REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DID I ASK YOU IF

WHEN YOU AND I DISCUSSED THIS MATTER WHETHER OR NOT YOU

HAD-_OR DID YOU VOLUNTEER TO ME THAT YOU HAD A FILE OF

CAMPAIGN ADS GOING BACK FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME?

YES, MR. LEONARD. WHEN I HEARD A WITNESS--I

BELIEVE HIS NAME WAS LUEBKE--TESTIFY THAT THE USE OF YOUR

OPPONENTIS PICTURE IN THE PRESS WAS UNUSUAL IN NORTH

CAROLINA, I SAID I HAD SOME THINGS OR EXAMPLES OF WHERE

YOUR OPPONENTS DO USE IT. AND THAT IS WHEN I BROUGHT YOU

THESE. AND I BELIEVE WE DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT IT IS A

COMMONPLACE PRACTICE TO RUN COI'4PARISON ADS IN NORTH

CAROLINA POLITICS WHERE YOU HAVE THE PICTURE OF YOU AND

YOUR OPPONEI,IT. AND T.HEN YOU HAVE A CHECKLIST.

AND OF COURSE, YOU PICK OUT THE GOoD POINTS.

YOU ASK THE RIGhIT QUESTIONS. AND YOU CHECK YOUR

QUALIFICATIONS. AND YOUR OPPONENTIS YOU HAVE BLANK.

AND ITHAT IS A COMMON PRACTICE. IT COMES UP IN ALMOST

EVERY ELECTION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.

AND IN REVIEWING YOUR FILES, DID YOU FIND A

NUMBER OF EXAMPLES OF THAT PRACTICE?

A NO. THI S WAS THE ONLY EXAMPLE I HAD OF THAT

PRACT I CE. THE OTHER MATTERS I N THE F I LES 'TIERE EXAMPLES

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OF RUNNING COALITIONS INCLUDING BLACKS AND WHITES.

A BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE CANDIDATES?

A YES.

A HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRACTICE OF RUNNING PICTURES

OF THE OPP.OSITION USED IN OTHER CAMPAIGNS?

A YES. IT HAPPENS IN ALMOST EVERY CAMPAIGN. IT

IS A COMMONPLACE PRACTICE IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS TO

RUN THESE COMPARISON ADS WITH THE PICTURES OF YOUR

OPPONENT IN THEM.

a Do you HAVE AN OPTNION AS TO WHETHER REPRE-

SENTATIVES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FROM MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN REPRESENTATIVES FROM

S IT.,IGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS?

A WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE A DELEGATION THAT IS

COHESIVE--THAT CAMPAIGNS TOGETHER AND GETS ELECTED

TOGETHER--YOU SPEAK AS ONE VOICE. O*' IF YOU HAVE.-IN

THE LARGER COUNTIES SUCH AS FORSYTH AND MECKLENBURG AND

WAKE, IF YOU CAN COME UP WTTH SIX VOTES OR SEVEN VOTES

OR FIVE VOTES OR EIGHT VOTES, IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE

BECAUSE YOU HAVE--THAT IS A SIZABLE BLOCK OF VOTES THAT

YOU CAN DELiVER.

A WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS IN

WAKE COUNTY?

A WELL, IT VARIES. THE REGISTERED VOTERS RUNS

AROUND 14 TO 15 TO 16 PERCEI.IT. I THINK IT HAS BEEN AS

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ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, AilZONA

HIGH AS 18. THEN IT DROPS DOWN TO 12. AND THEN THERE

IS ANOTHER REGISTRATION DRIVE. AND IT GOES BACK UP TO

16 OR SO. IT HOVERS AROUND 16 PERCENT, I THTNK.

a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT

THE WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION IS RESPONSIVE TO THE BLACK

CITIZENS OF WAKE COUNTY?

MS. WINNER: OB.JECTION.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : OVERRULED.

THE WI TNESS: WELL, I.,E CERTAINLY HOPE

THAT WE ARE.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A CAN YOU GIVE EXAMPLES OF THE WAKE COUNTY

DELEGATION SUPPORTING LEGISLATION THAT WAS OF SPECIFIC

INTEREST TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

A YES. WHEN THE BLACKS ASKED US TO ABOLISH

THE.SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS NON THE SCHOOL BOARD'-AS YOU

HEARD MR. MALONE TESTIFY--ON THE GROUNDS THAT THAT

DILUTED THE VOTING INFLUENC€ OF BLACK CITIZENS, VJE

INTRODUCED A BILL OVER THE OBJECTION OF A NUMBER OF OTHER

ELEMENTS IN THE COUNTY TO SET UP THE MECHANISM TO GO TO

AT-LARGE ELECTIONS FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD.

THAT WAS SPECI FICALLY AT THE RECIUEST OF THE

BLACK ORGANIZATIONS--THE FOUR BLACK ORGANIZATIONS: THE

RALEIGH-WAKE CITIZENS ASSOCIATION, THE BLACK I',OMENIS

POLITICAL CAUCUS, THE V'AKE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC BLACK CAUCUS

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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND THE FOURTH ONE, IVHI CH MET TOGETHER. MR. WI NLEY

WAS PRESIDING. MR. MALONE WAS THERE. SUBSTANTIALLY

EVERY BLACK LEADER IN I.IAKE COUNTY WAS THERE. AND THE

PURPOSE OF THE MEETING IVAS TO ASK US TO DO AI^'AY WITH

S INGLE_MEMBER DI STRI CTS IN 1^IAKE COUNTY FOR THE SCHOOL

BOARD BECAUSE IT LESSENED THE INFLUENCE OF THE BLACK

VOTERS. AND WE INTRODUCED THAT LEGISLATION AND HAVE IT

PENDING.

A I S THERE A BLACK CAUCUS IN THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES?

YE 5.

DO THEY AT TIMES GENERATE PROPOSALS TO THE

LEGISLATURE OUT OF THAT CAUCUS?

YES.

A CAN YOU RECALL ANY SUCH ISSUES IN THE LAST

TI'JO. SESSIONS?

A YES. THEIR MAIN PROGRAM WAS THE VOTER

REGISTRATION BATTLES THAT CHAIRMAN SPEARMAN REFERRED TO

THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED. AND I INTRODUCED ONE OF

THOSE. AND REPRESENTATIVE BLUE AND I AND BALLANCE WORKE

ON THOSE II.I THE HOUSE ELECTION LAWS COMI4ITTEE. AND WE

GOT ALL THREE OF THEM PASSED.

WILMA WOODARD, OUR SENATOR, I,JAS INTRODUCING

THEM IN THE SENATE AND HANDLED THE BILLS II.I THE SENATE.

THERE WERE THREE SPECIFIC PROPOSALS. ONE WAS VOTER

a P. O.60r l'tlcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 83?.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

REGISTRATION IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES. THE SECOND WAS TO

HAVE A VOTER REGISTRAR AT EACH HIGH SCHOOL. AND THE

THIRD WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES LICENSE

EXAMINERS GIVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO PEOPLE WHEN T}1EY

RENEW THEIR DRIVERIS LICENSE TO REGISTER TO VOTE OR

CHANGE THEIR REGISTRATION. AND ALL THREE OF THOSE PASSE

A WAS THERE ANY LEGISLATION IN THE HEALTH FIELD

THAT CAME OUT OF THE CAUCUS?

A WELL, I DONIT KNOW THAT IT WAS AN OFFICIAL

ACTION OF THE CAUCUS. BUT REPRESENTATIVE LOCKES FROM

ROBESON COUNTY INTRODUCED A BI LL ON TI-{E S I CKLE CELL

ANEMIA FUNDS-_TO HAVE FUNDS FOR SICKLE CELL--WHICH I

UNDERSTAND IS PECULIARLY APPLICABLE TO BLACKS. I THiNK

ONLY BLACKS GET SICKLE CELL ANEMIA.

AND THEY WERE INTERTT,STED IN THAT_-THE CAUCUS

wAS. AND THAT WAS PLACED IN rnr auoerr. IN FACT, l^lE

TOOK THE FUNDS OUT OF THE GOVERNORIS BLOCK GRANT FUNDS

AND FUNDED $2Sr,000 FoR SICKLE cELL ANEMIA.

A DID ALL OF THIS LEGISLATION WHICH YOU REFERRE

TO BECOME LAW IN NORTH CAROLINA?

YES. IT IS LAW NOW.

DID THE I./AKE COUNTY DELEGATION SUPPORT THAT

LEGISLATION?

A YES. THEY

THEY ALL SUPPORTED IT.

SUPPoRTED THE--YEAH, TO A MA!'J.

I DONrT--\./ELL, I SAY rrMANil AS---

P. O. Bor 2ats
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

( T rurrR PoS I NG ) ItRrur I ND ?

MANKIND. I DONIT RECALL ANY MEMBER OF THE

WAKE COUNTY DELEGATION VOTING AGAINST ANY OF THOSE VOTER

REGISTRATION BILLS. AND THE SICKLE CELL ANEMIA FUNDS

WERE IN THE MAIN APPROPRIATIONS BILL. AND NO WAKE COUNTY

REPRESENTATIVE VOTED AGAINST THAT. WE DONTT TEND TO

VOTE AGAINST A PROPOSAL OF ONE OF OUR MEMBERS. IT IS

VERY RARE WHEN I/,E DO THAT.

WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIA-

T IONS COMMITTEE?

A I AM CHAIRMAN OF THE BASE BUDGET. AND BILLY

WATKINS FROM GRANVILLE COUNTY IS CHAIRMAN OF THE EXPAN-

SION BUDGET. THE BLOCK GRANT CAME UNDER THE BASE BUDGET

SECTION.

A TELL THE COUR.T WHAT YOUR EXPERI ENCE I S WITH

RESPECT TO CAMPAIGNS IN VJAKE COUNTY ANO THE QUESTION OF

BLACKS AND WHITES CAMPAIGNING TOGETHER IN THE VARIOUS

RACIAL NEIGHBORHOODS THAT EXIST.

A WELL, THE PRIMARY IS ONE 'THING'.. THE GENERAL

ELECTION IS ANOTHER. OF COURSE, IN THE PRIMARY WE ALT''AY

HAVE 20 PEOPLE RUNNING FOR SIX SEATS. AND EVERY TIME

THERE IS A VACANCY, THERE IS GOING TO BE A T,IHOLE L.OT OF

PEOPLE RUNNING, EVEN IF THERE IS JUST ONE VACANCY.

AND OF COURSE, WE ARE ALL UP FOR ELECTION.

.Jusr BECAUSE you ARE AN INcUMBENT DoESt'lrT MEAN THAT You

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PRECISION REPORTlNG
AND TRANSCRIBING. ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

ARE GOING TO GET RE-ELECTED. SO WE ALL HAVE TO CAMPAIG

A NUMBER OF TIMES WE GO IN PAIRS. AND SOME-

TIMES THREE OF US WILL BE INCUI4BENTS. I KNOW RUTH COOK

AND DAN BLUE WENT OUT IN THE COUNTY A LOT TOGETHER OR

MUSSELWHITE AND BLUE. I o,,*I, DO AS MUCH AS I USED TO

IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN BECAUSE I DIDNIT HAVE TIME.

BUT THEY GO AROUND IN PAIRS SOME, BUT NOT SIX

INCUMBENTS BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE OFFENSIVE IN THE PRIMARY

THAT WOULD OFFEND DEMOCRATIC VOTERS. IN THE GENERAL

ELECTION, WE CAMPAIGN PURELY AS A TEAM. IT IS A TEAM

THING. WE GO TO ALL SECTIONS OF THE COUNTY_-THE SIX OF

US TOGETHER. WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN BUS THAT GOES THROUGH

THE COUNTY, STOPPING AT ALL PLACES IN THE COUNTY.

WE ALWAYS END THE TOUR AT A BLACK CHURCH. AI'ID

WE SING. AND THAT IS ALV/AYS A HIGHLIGHT OF THE CAMPAICN

TOUR FOR ME. BUT WE CAMPAIGN IN ALL COMMUNITIES WITH

ALL RACES AND NOT SPECIFICALLY AS BLACKS OR WHITES.

A WOULD YOU FOR THE RECORD PLEASE IDENTIFY THE

RACE OF SOME OF THOSE LEGISLATORS THAT YOU MENTI,ONED?

..A WELL, MUSSELWHITE--THE DELEGATION IS MUSSEL-

WHITE, FUSSELL, COOK, ADAMS AND STAMEY, WHO ARE WHITE;

AND BLUE, WHO IS BLACK. AND THEN THE SENATE DELEGATION

IS .JOE .JOHNSON, BILL STATON FROM LEE COUNTY AND WILMA

WOODWARD. THEY ARE ALL WHITE.

A HAVE YOU PUBLICLY SUPPORTED AND WORKED FOR

F P. O.8or 2al6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BLACK CANDIDATES IN WAKE COUNTY?

A YES. I PUBLICLY SUPPORTED JOHN WINTERS !.,i:.I=ltl

HE RAN IN 1961.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS :

TESTIFIED TO THIS EARLIER.

BY MR. LEONARD:

AS I RECALL, HE HAS

YOU MENTIONED BEFORE THAT REPRESENTATIVE

LOCKES I.JAS INTERESTED IN A SICKLE CELL ANEMIA BILL. WHA

IS HIS RACE? AND I,'HERE IS HE FROM?

HE IS A BLACK FROM ROBESON COUNTY.

A DID THE LEGISLATURE TAKE ANY ACTION ON A

PROPOSAL WITH RESPECT TO REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING?

A YES. THIS FIRST BILL WE PASSED THIS LAST

SESSION WAS MAKING MARTIN LUTHER KINGIS BIRTHDAY AN

OFFICIAL STATE HOLIDAY.

WHO AUTHORED THAT LEGISLATION?

I THINK REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WAS THE

PRINCIPAL SPONSOR.

A NOI.J, THERE HAS BEEN TEST IMONY WI TH RESPECT TO

A PROPOSAL BY YOU AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING OR BY

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING WITH RESPECT TO AMENDING THE

RUNOFF PRIMARY LAW--THE MAJORITY VOTE PRIMARY LAW-_IN

NORTH CAROLINA. WOULD YOU JUST TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY

WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS WITH RESPECT TO THAT LEGISLA-

TION?

A P, O. Aor 2it(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457],

PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O. Bor 2aldl
lJ R.t.roh, Nodh c.rolh. 276tt

A WELL, WE WERE INTERESTED IN CHANGING THE

SECOND PRIMARY REQUIREMENT AND GETTING SOME SORT OF A

SYSTEM WHEREBY IF SOMEBODY WAS WAY AHEAD OR GOT A CERTAIN

PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE A

SECOND PRIMARY.

REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING DREI}l THE LEGISLATION

AND HAD, I THINK, STARTED OFF WITH A 4O PERCENT REqUIRE-

MENT AND BROUGHT IT TO ME. AND I UNDEP.STOOD HE VIAS GOING

TO GET A NUMBER OF PEOPLE TO SIGN IT. BUT ONCE HE GOT--

AFTER I SIGNED IT--AND I AGREED TO BE A CO_SPONSOR, NOT

.JUST A SIGNER OF THE BI LL. BUT WE WERE THE CO-PRINCIPAL

INTRODUCERS. IT I,JAS A SPAULDING-ADA}4S BiLL AS OPPOSED

TO SPAULDING WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE.

THEN HE INTRODUCED IT. AND THEN WE MADE

SOI.4E--I STARTED WORKING ON THE SPEAKER TO SEE WHAT SUPPOR

WE.COULD GET FROM HIM AND:IN UIruINE UP SUPPORT IN THE '

COMMITTEE.

WE MADE SOI4E GOOD PROGRESS. AND IT WAS UNDER_

STOOD WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO AMEND IT SOME BSCAUSE OF

THE PECULIAR POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MIGHT COME UP

IN THE NEXT DEMOCRATIC PRIMAP.Y FOR GOVERNOR--THAT WE

WERE.GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE IT MORE RESTRICTIVE.

AND SO THEREFORS, \,/E UIERE TALKING ABOUT 45

PERCENT I,JI TH A 1O SPREAD. AND THE SPEAKER LARGELY SAI D

THAT HE WOULD SUPPORT TII,AT. AND REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING



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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ACTION THAT WOULD BE DESIGNED TO GET

THE BILL PASSED. IT WAS AS IF--YOU KNOW, HE DIDNIT TAKE

THE NORMAL ACTIONS THAT YOU TAKE IN THE LEGISLATURE TO

GIVE AND TAKE AND COME UP I'IITH SOMETHING TI15Y COULT)

SUPPORT. AND HE WAS JUST ADAMANT AT THE ORIGINAL PROPO-

SAL. AND I T WENT DO}JN.

REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION

AS TO WHETHER OR T.IOT SINGLE-MEMBER DISTFIICTS IN MECKLEN-

BURG, WAKE, FORSYTH AND DURHAM COUNTIES IN I..IORTH CAROLINA

DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUI.IITY TO ELECT THE

CANDIDATES OF THEiR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

YE S.

WHAT IS THAT OPINION?

SINGLE---

MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT

TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WAKE COUNTY IN THAT ANSWER. THERE

IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL

WORKINGS OF MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH OR DURHAM OR I,,ILSON-

EDGECOMBE-NASH COUNTIES. HE HAS TESTIFIED AT GREAT

LENGTH ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN WAKE COUNTY. HE HAS

TESTIFIED TO NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE POLITICAL SITUATIONS OF

THE OTHER COUNTIES.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T YOU ASK ANY

QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE,

I F HE HAS ANY, OF THOSE OTHER PLACES?

A

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MR. LEONARD: I DID, YOUR HONOR. I

TRIED TO QUALIFY IT EARLY IN HIS TESTII'4ONY WITH R.ESPECT

TO HI S STATEIIII DE EXPER I ENCE. BUT I WI LL DELVE A L I TTLE

MORE DEEPLY.

.BY MR. LEONARD:

A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ARE YOU FAI.IILIAR V,lITH

THE REPRESENTATIVES WHO REPRESENT DURHAM AND FORSYTH AND

MECKLENBURG COUNTIES?

A YES.

A HAVE YOU OBSERVED THOSE DELEGATIONS AND THEIR

ACTiVITIES WITH RESPECT TO LEGISLATION SINCE YOU HAVE

BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE?

A YE S . I HAVE HAD LONG CONVERSAT I ONS I.J I TH

MEMBERS OF THOSE DELEGATIONS ON THIS VERY SUB.JECT, AS

BETWEEN MULT I _I4E14BER AND S I NGLE-MEMBER DI STR ICTS .

a I.,HAT HAS BEEN YOUR OASTRVATION lWITH RESPECT TO

THE RELATIVE SIMILARITY OR NON-SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE

. POLITICAL SITUATION IN WAKE. COUNTY AND IN THE OTHER THREE

COUNTIES?

A llELL, YOU I-IAVE THE SAME PROPOSITIOl',1 TO

DIFFERING DEGREES. I I4EAN, OTHER COUNTIES HAVE DIFFERENT

DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP AND GEOGRAPHY. BUT THE PP.INCIPLE--THE

BASIC QUESTION IS THE SAME IN ALL THOSE COUNTIES.

MS. I'II NNER: I RENEW MY OP,TJ ECT I ON AND

REQUEST A VOIR DIRE OF THE WITNESS.

F P. O. aor 26t63
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PRECISTON REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LJUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, YOU MAY VOIR DIRE

THE WITNESS.

VOIR DIRE 9:45 A. M.

. BY MS. WINNER:

A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU

CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A HAVE I CAI.,IPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE? I HAVE

NEVER CAMPAIGNED FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANYBODY ELSEIS

CAMPAIGN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN I.,IECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A NO--JUST STATEWIDE--TYPE THINGS.

A HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY STATE\{IDF.

OFFICIALIS CAMPAIGN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A ONLY IN A STATEWIDE CAPACITY.

a oNLY SITTI.NG HERE rN lVarr COUNTY?

A WELL, I HAVE BEEN TO MECKLET.IBURG COUNTY WHEN

WE HAD RALLIES AND THINGS.-

a You woulD Go IN FOR AN HOUR OR TWO?

A I HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE PRECINCT WORK IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY FOR LEGISLATORS AS I HAVE IN WAKE

COUNTY.

A HAVE YOU EVER MET WITH THE MECKLEI\IBURG COUNTY

BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS?

A NO.

F P. O. Bor 26lGl
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A MEETING OF THE

MECKLENBURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?

A NO.

a HAVE yOU EVER GONE TO ANy COALTTION MEETiNG rN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY W I TH CAi.ID I DATES OR VOTER S ?

A NO.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNSEL, WE ARE GOING TO

ADMIT HIS ANSI^JER TO THE QUESTION THAT WAS LAST PUT TO

HIM. AND YOU CAN EXPLORE EVERYTHING YOU ARE NOW EXPLORII

ON CROSS_EXAMINATION. AND WE HAVE YOUR OBJECTION IN THE

RECORD. IT SI:EMS TO ME YOU HAVE GONE BEYOND VOIR DIRING

HIM.

MS. WINNER: I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO

SHOW H'I S OPPORTUN I TY TO OBSERVE THE PROCESS .

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE I^'ILL TAKE HIS OPII!ION

IN THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT rO r-rrm. AND THEt'l YOU CAN

EXPLORE THAT IN DETAIL ON CROSS-EXAMINATION.

D I R E c r 
c[.];fi.I>' 

N A r I o N e:45 A'M'

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION?

A THE QUESTION WAS DO I HAVE AN OPINION A.S TO

TiIE EFFECT ON-*-

a (ITTERPOSING) LET ME RESTATE IT SO THERE IS

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THAT YOU DID HAVE AN OPINi

- 
P. O, 8or i8r{u

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AS TO WII[THER OR NOT SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN MECKLEN)

BURG, FORSYTH, DURHAI'I AND WAKE COUNT I ES I N NORTH CAROL INA

DENIED BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT CANDI-

DATES OF THEIR CHOICE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. i NOW ASK

YOU: VJHAT IS THAT OPINION?

IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT CARVII.IG OUT A SINGLE-

MEMBER BLACK GHETTO DISTRICT, IT UNQUESTIONABLY HAS THE

EFFECT OF DILUTING THE INFLUENCE OF BLACK VOI'ERS IN THAT

COUNTY. IT IS AXIOMATIC THAT IF THEY CANNOT VOTE BUT FOR

ONE LEGISLATOR, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO I.IAVE ANY INFLUENCE

OVER THE OTHER FIVE OR SIX.

DID YOU SUPPORT MULTi-MEMBE!'. DISTRICTS FOR

THOSE FOUR COUNTiES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WITH THE

INTENTION TO DENY BLACK PEOPLE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO

ELECT CANDIDATES OF THE IR CHOICE IN THOSE DISTRICTS?

, A MR. LEONAR.D, }4Y RECORD I S TO ENSURE THAT BLACK

PEOPLE HAVE INFLUENCE THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE POLITICAL

ACTIVITY. AND I VOTED AGA{NST SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS TO

ENSURE THAT BLACK PEOPLE CONTINUED TO HAVE THAT INFLUENCE

MR. LEONARD: COULD I HAVE .JUST A

MOI.,IENT, PLEASE ?

(PAUSE. )

THAT IS ALL I HAVE.

CROSS_EXAM INATION 9:47 A.l.1.

F P. O. Bor 2ltB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BY MS. WINNER: \

A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, HOW MANY BLACK PEOPLs IN

DURHAM COUNTY HAVE YOU DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS

I^/ITH OTHER THAN REPRESENTATIVE SPAULDING?

A WELL, THROUGHOUT THE YEARS DURHAM UIAS IN OUR

CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, I WAS COUNTY CHAIRMAN AND ACTIVE

IN THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT PARTICIPATION. SO I HAVE

DISCUSSED DURHAM COUNTY POLITICS AT GREAT LENGTH WITH

PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY--LAVONIA ALLISON.

A DID YOU TALK VJITH LAVONIA ALLISON YESTERDAY

IN THE COURTROOI{ OR IN THE HALL?

A

a

oH, YE S.

DID SHE TELL YOU THAT

DURHAM DO NOT HAVE GOOD

DURHAM COUNTY ?

YEAH. AND I TOLD HER

SHE THOUGHT THAT BLACK

ACCESS TO THE POLITICALPEOPLE IN

PROCESS IN

.A

M I STAKEN.

I THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS

DIDNIT YOU TELL-HER THAT SHE SHOULD TAKE CARE

OF DURHAM AND YOU I^JOULD TAKE CARE OF WAKE?

A WELL, r SArD THAT rN A LrrrLE Brr OF rmpirrr

THAT SOMEONE FROM DURHAM COUNTY THAT HAS NOT HAD ANYWHERE

NEAR THE RECORD OF INVOLVING BLACKS IN THE POLITICAL

PROCESS SHOULD COME OVER HERE AND TELL US WHAT I''E SHOULD

DO IN WAKE COUNTY, WHERE WE HAVE ELECTED BLACKS CONSIS-

TENTLY BY INVOLViNG EVERYBODY IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AS

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779 3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY DO INI DURHAM.

A AND SO YOU THINK THAT SOMEBODY FROM DURHAM

SHOULD NOT BE INTERFERING WITH THE POLITICS IN WAKE

C OUNTY ?

A I DONIT THINK THAT SHE IS QUALIFIED TO COME

OVER HERE--_

a (tNrrRposrNG) oo you THINK THAT SOMEBODY iN

DUqHAM COUNTY---

A (rNrrRp0sING) v.trLL, ,IF I couLD ANSWER---

UDGE PHiLLIPS: (INTERPOSTNE) LET IIIM

FINISH HIS ANSWER.

THE WITNESS: I DONIT THII.,IK SHE IS

QUALIFIED IN THE LACK OF SUCCESS THAT SHE HAS HAD IN

DURHAM COUNTY WHEN SHE HAS BEEN THE COUNTY CHAIRMAN. HER

POLICIES IIAVE RESULTED IN RACiAL POLARIZATION. WE ARE

WORKING FOR THE OPPOSITE IN WAKE COUNTY. WE WANT PEOPLE

TO WORK TOGETHER.

AND I JUST DONItr THINK THAT SHE IS--I THOUGHT

IT I^/AS A LITTLE CHEEKY OF HER TO COME OVER HERE AND TELL

US HOW'TO RUN WAKE COUNTY.

BY MS. WINNER,:

A SO YOU THINK THAT SHE FROM DURHAM COUNTY

SHOULD NOT TELL YOU IN WAKE COUNTY HOI^, TO RUI'J YOUR

BUS I NESS ?

A NO. AND I DONII T TELL HER IN DURHAM COUNTY

P. O. gor 28ra
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HOW TO P.UN HER BUS I NES S .

a ALL RIGHT. SO yOU DON'T TTIINK THAT yOU SHOULD

TELL PEOPLE IN DURHAM COUNTY HOW TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS?

A NO.

a Now, WHAT IS YOUR--HAVE yOU EVER COMPAIGNED

FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

A NO.

a HavT YoU EVER PARTICIPATED IN THE CAMPAIGN oF

ANYBODY ELSE FOR PUBLIC OFFICE IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

A I THINK WHEN NICK GALIFIANAKIS RAN I I^/A5 SORT

PERIPHERALLY INVOLVED IN THAT.

.a UJHAT YEAR WAS THAT-- 1g 7 0 ?

A OH, NO. THAT WAS r65 OR '66, I THINK.

A THAT WAS THE LAST CANDIDATE YOU CAMPAIGNED AI'ID

WORKED IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

A WELI., I DIDNI T ACTUALLY WORK I N FORSYTH COUNTY

HE WAS RUNNING IN FORSYTH COUNTY.

A YOU DIDNIT WORK.IN HIS CAMPAIGN IN FORSYTH

COUNTY ?

A NO--I.JOT IN FORSYTH COUNTY. NO.

A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY COMMUNITY MEETINGS

IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

A NO.

A HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ANY CANDIDATE COALITION

MEETINGS IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

F P. O. Bor 2!lct
u Rd.rgh, Nonh C.reiln. 270il



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A NO.

A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE IVINSTON_SALEM

NEWSPAPERS?

A r cAN' r sAY FREQUENTLY. No. 
I

A DO YOU FREQUENTLY READ THE CHARLOTTE i

NEwspApERs? 

rvv rNL,uLrrrLr ^LAU ltlt- \-,.A..Lvlltr 

l

A MORE FREqUENTLY THAN THE W I NSTON-SALE|'1.

a occASroNALLY?

A YEAH. I WOULD SAY ONCE OR TU/ICE A WEEK I READ

THE CHARLOTTE PAPER.

A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE FORSYTH

COUNTY DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE?

A NO.

A HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE DURHAM

COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF BLACK PEOPLE?

. A NO.

a HAVE yOU BEEN TO ANY MEETINGS 0F THE WINSTOT.J-

SALEM IMPROVEMENT ASSOCIATI,ON?

A NO.

a Do You KNow !{HAT THE WINSToN-SALEM IMPROVEMENT

ASSOCIATION IS?

A I ASSUME IT IS SIMILAR TO THE ASSOCIATIONS WE

HAVE HERE IN WAKE COUNTY.

a BUT YOU DONr T KNOl.i ?

A NO.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. /tlAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457],
PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P, O. Bor 2tl(l

Ll R.hroh. Nodh Ct.ott0 2?Clt



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PRECISION REPORTlNG
AND TITANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA

FORSYTH COUNTY BLACK LEADERSHIP

WHO THE MEMBERS OF THE

CONFERENCE ARE?

NO.

A HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THE

CHAIRMAN OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY ABOUT

PAP.TICIPATING WITH BL.ACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN, IF I MAY---

(TNTTpPOSING) T HAVE No IDEA. Do YoU KNoW?

WELL, I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH PEOPLE FROM

WINSTON.SALET4 AND FORSYTH COUNTY ABOUT THE PARTiCIPATICi\I

OF BLACKS I N THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN FORSYTI-I COUNTY.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE

FORSYTH COUNTY DEMOCRATiC PARTY IS?

A NO. I DONIT KNOW IF I WAS TALKING TO THE

CHA]RMAN AT THAT TiME OR NOT.

DO YOU KNOW WHO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MECKLEN_

BURG COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARIY IS?

A NOT AT PRESENT; NO.

A AND YOU HAVE NEVER DISCUSSED WITH HIM OR HER

THE PARTICIPATION OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

f.lO.

DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THIS

STATE HAS DIFFERENT STRENGTHS IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES?

A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBTNG, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WELL, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS

IN DIFFERENT COUNTIES, MS. WINNER.

A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A . WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC ELECTION. I

THINK PROBABLY GENERALLY YOU COULD MAKE THAT STATEMENT.

YES.

A MoRE REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED IN MECKLENBURG

COUNTY THAN IN WAKE COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND IT IS STRONGER IN WAKE COUNTY THAN IT IS

IN FORSYTH COUNTY?

A YES.

A AND THOSE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE COUNTIE

A OH, YEAH. Tt-tEY ARE DIFFERENT.

A AND THOSE DIFFERENCES WOULD AFFECT THE ACCESS

OF BLACK PEOPLE TO THE PROCESS; WOULDNIT THEY?

A THEY DONIT AFFECT THE BASIC PRINCIPLE--THAT IF

YOU PUT THE BLACKS ALL IN ONE;.AREA IT IS GOING TO WEAKEN

THEIR INFLUENCE.

a Now---

A (IruTENPOSING) NruO I HAVE DISCUSSED THAT WITH

PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTIES. AND I DISCUSSED IT AT LENGTH

WITH REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WHEN WE WERE DEALING WITH THIS

QUESTTON.

A P. O. lor 2atB
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A BUT REPRESENTATIVE BLUE IS FROM WAKE C3UNTY

ALSO; ISNIT HE?

A YES. BUT HE MADE---
\

a (trurenposlNc) aNo HE HAS NEVER LrVED IN DUR

COUNTY; HAS HE?

A NO. BUT M,t. WINNER, HE MADE A STUDY OF ALL

THESE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND THE VOTING PRECINCTS AND

WHERE PEOPLE LIVED IN ALL THESE COUNTIES. SEE, HE WAS

ON THE COMMITTEE. AND HE TOOK THE LEAD ON THE COMMITTEE

IN COMING UP WITH THIS INFORMATION.

A SO YOUR OPINION IS BASED ON REPRESENTATIVE

BLUEI S STUDY?

A LARGELY, ON THIS QUESTION; YEAH--FOR THOSE

OTHER COUNT !'ES.

A AND NOT ON YOUR PERSONAL STUDY?

A THAT IS TRUE. THAT I; TRUE

A NOW, THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE LEGISLATURE DID

NOT EXIST IN 1981; DID IT? -

A NOT AS SUCH; NO.

a SO IT DIDN' T MEET IN 1981; DID IT?

A !^/ELL, I T:-IINK THE THREE BLACKS MET. YES. BUT

TH5 Y- --

a ( I rurrnPos I l.lc) NOr AS A BLACK CAUCUS?

A BUT THEY DIDN'T TAKE AN OFFICIAL POSITION. L

ME EXPLAIN I^/HAT THEY DID. THE THREE---

- 
P. O. gd alGt

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PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

q (trvrrcpr):;ING)

YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?

REDIRECT, HE MAY.

MR. LEONARD:

REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, WOULD

IF COUNSEL WANTS TO ASK YOU ON

IF THE COURT PLEASE, I

THINK THAT COUNSEL IS CUTTING OFF THE WITNESS FROM FUI-.[.Y

ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. SHE IS MACHINE-GUNNING HIM.

AND I THTNK IF HE HAS AN EXPLANATION TO GIVE TO THE

QUESTION, HE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE IT.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS : I THINK YOU HAVE HAD A

TENDENCY TO OVERRUN HIM A LITTLE BIT, MS. l,/IN:.,IER, TOWARD

THE MIDPART OF WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN. SO WHEN

YOU ASK A QUESTION, UNLESS YOU LIMIT IT, BE PREPARED TO

LET THE WITNESS P.ANGE AS WIDELY AS THE QUESTION RANGED.

BY M5. WINNER:

THE QUESTION WAS:q

rN 1981?

A

sAID, ilWE

CHAIRMAN.II

DID TIIE BLACK CAUCUS MEET

NOT AS AN OFFICIAL BLACK CAUCUS WHERE THEY

ARE A BLACK CAUCUS. AND WE ARE ELECTING A

a THANK YOIJ.

A THE THREE BLACKS MET. THEY CAUCUSED AND CAME

AND LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEIR CONCERNS WERE.

A AND OTHER GROUPS OF LEGISLATORS MET AND HAD

COMMON CONCERNS AS I.JELL?

oH, YES.

A P. O. aor irtlC3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A AND THAT IS A VERY COMMON THING TO HAPPEN

IN THE LEGISLATURE?

A WELL, IT IS MORE COMMON NOW, NOW THAT YOU HAVE

A I^IOMEN I S CAUCUS, WH I CH I TH INK HAS oFF I C IAL STIIIJCTURE .

AND YOU HAVE THE CAPE FEAR CAUCUS. THERE ARE MORE

CAUCUSES NOW TIJAN iHERE USED TO BE I S I"IHAT I A}4 SA'f ING.

SO IT IS COMMON NOi^/. YES.

a IN 1983, THE BLACK CAUCUS FIRST CAME INTO

OFFICIAL, FORMAL EXISTENCE?

A YES. I THiNK THAT IS CORRECT.

A YOU NEVER WENT TO ANY MEETINGS OF THE BLACK

CAUCUS; DID YOU?

A NO.

A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT VJAS SAID DURING THE

MEETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUSi DO YOU--OF YOUR OWN

KNOWLEDGE ?

A I KNOW WHAT W.qS R,EL,\TED TO ME WAS THE CONCERNS

OF THE BLACK CAUCUS AND WHAT MATTERS THAT I WAS TO TAKE

ACTION ON.

A YOU DID NOT HEAR ANY OF THE MEETINGS OF THE

BLACK CAUCUS?

A NO.

A YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER ANY BLACK MEMBERS OF

THE LEGISLATURE EXPRESSED THEIR FEARS ABOUT INTIMIDATION

DURING THE I4EETINGS OF THE BLACK CAUCUS; DO YOU?

F P. O.8q 2ltcl
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NO. WELL, I WOULD HAVE HEARD THAT. yES. \

a you Do NoT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY DID?.

A NO. I DO NOT KNOW. BUT I AM CONFIDENT IF THA

HAD BEEN SAID, I WOULD HAVE HEARD IT WITHIN A DAY.

.THAT IS YOUR BELIEF?

THAT IS MY BELIEF. YES.

a AND yOU DO NOT SPECIFICALLY KNOW WHETHER ANy

BLACK LEGISLATORS ASKED FRANK BALLANCE PRIVATELY TO TAKE

THE LEAD ON ANY ISSUES; DO YOU?

NO.

A HAVE YOU EVER DISCUSSED THAT ISSUE WITH

REPRESENTATIVE BALLANCE OTHER THAN HEARING HIS TESTIMONY

IN THIS COURTROOM?

A I.IO-_BECAUSE I WAS RATHER SURPRISED AT WHAT HE

SAID. AND I WOULD HAVE DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM IF I HAD

KNO},N HE HAD ANY I NCLINATIOI'I TO aaararE THAT.

YOU HAVE NOT DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM?

A NO.

A NOI.I, THESE DELEGAT I ON AGREEMENTS AS I UNDER_

STAND THEM--THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ACT AS A DELEGATION--

THEY ARE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?

WELL, THEY HAVE NO LEGAL MANDATORY EFFECT.

AND IF A COUNTY WERE SUBDIVIDED, THERE WOULD

BE NOTHING TO PREVENT THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE SUB-

D IVI s I ONS OF THE COUNTI ES FROM E!.ITERING INTO A VOLUNTARY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AGREEMENT; WOULD THERE?

A OH, NO.

a NOW, YOU ARE A PARTY DEMOCRATi AREN'T yOU?

A A PARTY DEMOCRAT?

A YOU PERCEIVE YOURSELF TO BE A DEMOCRAT?

A OH, YES.

A AND YOU ARE VERY VOCAL ABOUT THAT?

A I TRY TO BE. YEAH.

A AIID YOU ARE LOYAL TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

A I TRY TO BE.

A AND YOU TRY TO DO THINGS THAT PROMOTE IT?

A OH, YES.

A AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT IF YOU SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICTED MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE

COUNTIES THAT THAT WOULD HELP REPUBLICANS GET ELECTED?

. A NO QUESTI ON THAT IT 'yr'OULD. YES. I HAVE SAID

THAT.

A AND THAT I S ONE OE THE REASONS THAT YOU ARE

OPPOSED TO DOING THAT; ISNTT IT?

A YES.

A YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE FOR A LONG

TiME--SEVERAL YEARS?

A FIVE TERMS.

A IN YOUR PERCEPTION, AT LEAST FOR DEMOCRATS

DOES SENIORITY HELP YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATUR

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARiZONA

A I-JELL , lT I S ONE OF THE FACTORS. YOUR

EFFECTIVENESS IN THE LEGISLATURE IS MAII\ILY LUCK THAT YoU

ARE AT THE RIGHT PLACE IN THE RIGHT TIME AND PICK THE

RIGHT CANDIDATE FOR SPEAKER.

A .IT DOESNIT GUARANTEE YOUR EFFECTIVENESS, BUT

IT CERTAINLY ASSISTS YOUR EFFECTIVENESS?

A YES. SENIORITY DOES. ABILITY ALSO AFFECTS

YOUR EFFECTIVENESS.

A SENIORITY IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS

ONE OF THE FACTORS?

A NO. FOR INSTANCE, REPRESENTATIVE BLUE WAS

RATED IN THE TOP QUARTER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHEN HE

WAS A FRESHMAN. HE WAS RATED ]1ST.

A SO IT IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR, BUT IT IS ONE

OF THE FACTORS?

. A NO. I T I S ONE OF TTIE TECTORS. YES.

a Do you KNow oF ANy ELECTION THAT HAS HAD A

SECOND PRIMARY IN WHICH A RUTE WITH A 45 PERCENT CUTOFF

AND A 1O PERCENT SPREAD I.IOULD HAVE CHANGED THE RESULTS?

A I SAW SOME CHARTS, MS. I.JINNER, ABOUT THE

DIFF=RENT PROPOSALS. AND I DONIT RECALL WHETHER THAT

WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANY RESULTS.

A AT THE TII4E: THAT YOU PROPOSED TO AMEND THE

BILL, DID YOU KNOW WI.{ETHER OR NOT CHANGING TO THAT RULE

WOULD CHANGE THE RESULTS OF ANY ELECTIONS?

F P. O. 8or tla3
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOEN|X. ARtZO.IA

A NO. I CAN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT I COULD

POINT TO ANY--YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PAST ELECTIONS?

A YES, SIR?

A NO. I CANNOT POINT TO ANY SPECIFIC PAST

ELECTION. .IT MIGHT CHANGE THE RESULT IN SOME FUTURE

E LECT I ON.

A BUT YOU DONIT KNOW? THAT IS SPECULATION?

A WELL, ALL FUTURE ELECTIONS ARE SPECULATION.

YES.

a Now, IS

HAVE EQUALLY HIGH

COUNTY ?

A NO. WE

AND STILL HAVENIT

A AND IN

IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT BLACK PEOPLE

REGISTRATION AS WHITE PEOPLE IN I.'AKE

HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR 20 YEARS

GOTTEN IT UP TO THE LEVEL OF WHITE.

FACT, THERE IS STILL A SUBSTANTIAL GAP?

DON'T KNOW IF i' IS SUBSTANTIAL.. A WELL, I

THERE IS A GAP.

WOULD YOU CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS TO BE

SUBSTANTIAL?

I WOULD CONSIDER 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS AS BEING

UNACCEPTABLE.

A YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE

CONSISTENTLY BEEN ELECTED TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL AT

LARGE. ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THERE ARE NO BLACK REPRESEN-

TATIVES ELECTED AT LAP.GE TO THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL, AND

F P. O. lor 2llGS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX ARIZONA

THAT THERE HAVE NOT BEEN FOR THE PAST AT LEAST FOUR OR

SIX YEARS?

A I.rO. MS. WINNER, I APOLOGIZS. WHEN WE HAD THE

AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR THE ELECTION OF THE RALEIGH CITY

COUNCIL--THAT t^lAS CHANGED IN THE SEVENTIES. BUT BEFORE

THEN, THERE WAS CONSISTENTLY BLACKS ELECTED AT LARGE

UNDER THE AT-LARGE SYSTEM FOR RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL START-

ING IN 1961. I BELIEVE THAT SENATOR WINTERS WAS THE

FIRST ONE. AND THEN HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY MAYOR LIGHTNER.

AND THEN WHEN WE WENT INTO THE MIXED SYSTEM

AND THE DIRECT ELECTION OF THE MAYOR, MAYOP. LIGHTNER WAS

ELECTED MAYOR. SO I THINK IN EVERY YEAR SINCE I HAVE

BEEN ASSoCIATED IN POLITICS SINCE 1960, WE HAVE--AND VtE

HAD AN AT-LARGE ELECTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL--WE HAD A

BLACK ON THE CITY COUNCIL.

A BUT SINCE I.T HAS CHANGED TO A MI

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BLACK PERSON ELECTED

THE RALEIGH CITY COUNCIL; HAS THERE?

XED

AT

SYSTEM,

LARGE TO

NO.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CANDIDATES; HAVENIT

THERE ?

A I THINK SPURGE CAMERON RAN ONE TIME.

A NOW, THERE \^'AS A BILL INTRODUCED IN THE

LEGISLATURE IN 1981 THAT WOULD HAVE CREATED SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICTS AS OF 1990 ALL OVER THE STATE; WASNIT THERE?

A

P. o- Bor 2lldl
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRlBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH. 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I THINK THAT THE REPRESENTATIVE HAGY, A

REPUBL]CAN REPRESENTATIVE, INTRODUCED A PLAN THAT DID

TnRT oI'I BEHALF oF THE REPUBLIcANS.

MS. WINNER: MAY I APPROACH THE

WITNESS?

BY MS . I'I I NNER :

A LET ME SHOW YOU THIS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLEC-

TION.

A OH, YES. THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE BARKER'S

BILL.

A WHAT I HAVE HANDED YOU IS HOUSE BILL 229; IS

THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

a FROM THE 1981 SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY?

A uH-HUH.

A COULD YOU READ THE SHORT TITLE OF THAT BILL?

A THE SHORT 
""T 

IS ''SINGLE-MEMB=R LEGISLATIVE

DISTRICTS.II

A WOULD YCU READ THE LONG TITLE OF THE BILL?

A ''...AN ACT TO AMEND ARTICLE 2 OF THE NORTH

CAROLINA CONSTITUTION TO CHANGE THE NUMBER OF

REPRESENTATIVES TO PROVIDE FOR SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICTS AND TO SET THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR

MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.II

A CAN YOU READ THE FIRST SPONSOR OF THE BILL?

a t. O. 8or Ild
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PRECIS]ON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

REPRESENTAIIVE BARKER.

WHO IS THE SECOND SPONSOR OF THE BILL?

ADAI'1S

IS THAT YOU?

THAT I S ME.

a REPRESEI'ITATIVE ADAMS, wERE You rt'tE ATTORI'IEy

FOR WAKE COUNTY WHEN WAKE COUNTY BAILED OUT OF SECTION 5?

A NO.

A HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER

THAT ALLOWED THE BAILOUT?

A A COPY OF THE CONSENT ORDER? I DON'T BELIEVE

I HAVE. NO.

MS. WINNER: IN T!-!AT CASE, I WOULD

MOVE TO STRIKE THE PORTION OF REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS'

TESTIMONY THAT GIVES THE REASONS THAT I./AKE COUNTY WAS

ALLOWED TO BAIL OUT FP.qM SECTION ;. I THINK IT IS PUBLIC

RECORD. AND WE T.JOULD CERTAINLY STIPULATE , THAT T.'AKE

couNTY wAS ALLOI^JED To BAIL our FROM sEcrIoN 5. BUT THE

STANDARD THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT USED TO COI..ISENT TO

THAT BAILOUT IS CERTAINLY BEYOND REPRESEIiTATIVE ADAMST

POSSIBLE KNOWLEDGE AND IS BEST PROVED, IF PROVED AT ALL,

BY THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSENT ORDER AND NOT BY REPRESEN-

TAT I VE ADAMS I I NTERPRETAT I ON OF I,JHAT I T II1EANT.

MR. LEONARD: I^IELL, I F THE CoURT PLEASE

IF THAT IS MEANT TO II1PEACH THE WITN:SS, LETTS HAVE THE

F P. O. eor 2lldt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

COPY OF THE ORDEP..

t4S. T./ I NNER : IT IS NOT I4EANT TO II.,I_

PEACH THE WITNESS. IT IS MEANT TO SHOI,I THAT THE TESTI-

MONY IS INCOMPE'TENT.

MR. LEONARD: THE WITNESS TESTIFIED TO

WHAT HIS RECOLLECTION OF THE FACTS WERE. AND UNTIL THAT

TESTIMONY IS CONTROVERTED, AT THIS JUNCTURE THERE IS

NOTHING IN THE RECORD TO INDICATE THAT HIS RECOLLECTION

ISNIT AS GOOD AS THE OFFICIAL RECORD.

JUDGE PHI LLI PS: OVERRULED.

BY MS . I.I I NNER :

A REPRESENTATIVE ADAMS, ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR

KNOI,ILEDGE OF THE REASONS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

DECIDED TO CONSENT TO THE SECTION 5 BAILOUT?

A CONVERSATIONS WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND

I^'ITH. SPECIFICALLY JIM SHEPHERD, WHO WAS THE LEADER OF

THE BLACK VOTER REGISTRATION DRIVE AND WHO I'IAS MY CLOSE

FRIEND AND ADVISOR.

A ISNIT IT TRUE THAT THE TIME PERIOD FOR

DETERMINING BAILOUT WAS FIVE YEARS AND NOT 15 YEARS, AS

YOU TESTIFIED?

A I AM SURE OF THAT. THEY HAD TO GO BACK IN

HISTORY TO---

a ( r Nrrnpos r NG) so you REALLY DoN '! T KNow Ho\^:

MANY YEARS THEY HAD TO GO BACK?

Ft P, O. 8or ?trq!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A IT

TO TRY--THEY

14 FBI AGENTS

SHEPHERD TOLD

I.lAVE BEEN FIVE.

THE COUNTY. THEY

OR INVESTIGATORS.

THEY WENT BACK I N

SENT SOMETHII'IG LIKE

THIS IS WHAT

COULD

COMBED

HERE

ME.

THI Saso IS ALL JUST WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE SAID TO

YOU ?

THIS IS WHAT THE LEADER OF THE BLACK REGISTRA-

TION DRIVE TOLD I'1E. AND HE SAID THEY WENT ALL OVER THE

COUNTRY TRYING TO FIND INSTANCES OF VOTER DISCRIMINATION

OR RAcIAL DI SCRIIlINATICN IN VoTER REGISTRATIoN. AND THEY

COULDI'.IIT FIND ANY.

AT..ID SO THEY ADVISED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

THAT THERE WASNIT ANY. AND THEY CONSENTED T}IAT THERE

I^JASNIT ANY. AND WE GOT OUT OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT THE SCOPE OF THE

INVESTIGATION WAS LIMiTED TO WHETHER OR NOT A LITERACY

TEST HAD BEEN USED ?

I THINK THAT l,{AS.THE CRITERIA.-WI{ETHER THE

LITERACY TEST WAS USED TO DENY BLACKS ACCESS TO VOTER

REGISTRATION. AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT--THE VOTER RIGHTS

ACT RAISED A PRESUMPTION THAT IF YOU HAD A LITERACY TEST

AND LESS THAN 50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OF YOUR COUNTY

PARTICIPATED IN THE 1964 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THERE WAS

A PRESUMPTION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION--USE OF THE

LITERACY TEST FOR RACIAL DISCIlIl.1II.IATI3N.

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AND SO IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THE ONLY

DETERI'lINATIOT\I MADE BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS THAT, IN

FACT, BECAUSE OF THE PECULIAR II.{STITUTIONAL POPULATION OF

I,IAKE COUNTY THAT THE STATISTICS ABOUT THE NU|{BER oF

PEOPLE WHO VOTED WEitE \./RONG?

A

POSS I BLE.

THAT WAS NEVER REPORTED. I MEAN, IT IS

BUT I NEVER HEARD THAT. NO.

o

A YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT THE PROBLEM AROSE

BECAUSE WAKE COUNTY HAS OR BEC,A.USE RALEIGH HAS CENTRAL

PRISON AND RALEIGH HAS COLLEGES. AND THEREFCRE, THE

CENSUS DATA W,AS INFLATED AS TO THE NUMBEII OF PEOPLE?

A NO. WE DIDNTT ATTACK IS WHAT--I,E DID NOT

ATTACK THE CENSUS ITSELF. THAT VJAS NOT THE GROUNDS FOR

OUR APPEAL.

a WERE you THE pr_RSON WHO DECIDED THE GROUNDS

FOR THE APPEAL

A LARGELY; YES.

a WERE you IN THE COURTROOM WHEN THE AppEAL VJAS

MADE ?

NO. IT VJAS DONE BY CONSENT ORDER. I,JE WENT UP

AND TALKED TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTI.4ENT.

WERE YOU THERE DURING THE CONVERSATION?

YES.

q AND THE DETERMINATION \^IAS THAT THE LITERACY

TEST HAD NOT BEE USED TO DISCRII,IINATE IN A FIVE-YEAR

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2lld

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PERIOD; IS THAT CORRECT?

A THE DETERMINATION AS I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS THAT

Tne JUSTIcE D.EPARTMENT AND THE FBI CoULD FIND No EViDENCE

IN WAKE COUNTY OF THE LITERACY TEST BEING USED TO

DISCRI14INATE AGAINST BLACK VOTERS.

a AND yOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TIME PERIOD WAS?

A IT WAS SOME YEARS PAST. THEY HAD TO GO BACK

IN THE PAST FOR SOME YEARS.

a You DoN,T KNOW HOW MANY YEARS?

A NO. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY YEARS.

MS. WINNER: I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER

QUESTIONS.

R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 10:10 A.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A TELL THE CO.URT WHY YOU INTRODUCED THE BILL IN

THE LAST SESSIOI'J OR THE SESSION SEFORE REL,\TING TO SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE DECADE OF THE NINETIES.

A iN 1975 I HAD INTRODUCED A CONSTITUTIONAL

AMENDI.4ENT WHICH ALLOI,JED A COUNTY, IF IT WANTED TO, TO

HAVE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS. IT WAS NOT MANDATORY.

AND ADMIRAL BAP.KER HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN THAT FOR SOI1E

T IME.

AND AT TtjAT TIME, THE CONSTITUTION--t^'ELL, IT

STILL SAYS SO, BUT IT IS INOPERATIVE--THAT A COUNTY

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI,EIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P, O. Bor ZEl((l
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COULD NOT BE SPLIT. P.ND I THOUGHT AT THAT TIME THAT IT

MIGHT BE ADVANTAGEOUS AT SOME TIMES TO SPLIT A COUNTY;

AND THAT AT LEAST THAT WE OUGHT TO HAVE THAT OP':'ION.

AND REPRESENTATIVE BARKER SUPPORTED ME ON THAT

AND WAS VERY ACTIVE ON IT AND SAID, "NOW, I AM GOING TO

INTRODUCE THIS ONE DOI.TN THE LINE. I WANT YOU TO HELP ME.I

so WHEN HE BROUGIIT tlE THE BILL, I WAS OBLIGATED TO SIGN

THE THING. I D ID NOT INTRODUCE IT. I TJUST SIGhIED IT, AS

DID A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE. BIJT IT I^'AS BECAUSE OF HIS

PAS T HE LP 'd I TI.I },1E .

A COUNSEL ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT IT IS

IMPOSSIBLE FOR REPRESENTATIVES FROM COUNTIES WHO REPRE-

SENT SINGLE.MEMBER DISTRICTS TO FORM A CAUCUS. AND I

BEL I EVE YOUR ANSWER WAS THAT I T I S POSS I BLE. !^'AS THAT

YOUR ANSWER?

. A OH, CERTAINLy IT IS pOSSIBLE. ANYBODY CAN

FORM A CAUCUS IF THEY WANT TO.

a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT

THERE I S THE SAi4E DEGREE OF MOTIVATION FOR REPRESENTATIVF-

REPRESENTING THE SAME COUNTY BUT FROM SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRICTS TO ACT AS A COHESIVE GROUP OR A CAUCUS AS

THERE IS WHEN THOSE REPRESENTATIVES ARE ELECTED AT LARGE?

MS. WINNER: OBJECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: OVERRULED.

THE !^IITNESS: DO I HAVE AN OPINION?

F P. O.8or 2alB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

YES. HAVE AN OPINION.

BY MR. LEONA.RD:

YES? WHAT IS THAT OPINION?

MS. WINNER:

. JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

THE i.JI TNESS:

OBJECT I ON.

OVERRUTED.

WELL, GENERALLY, IF YOU

IT T'JAS PURELY A

MATTER OF YOUR

UNDER WHICH WAKE

DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CONSTITUI-:NIS, YOU DO NOT HAVE A

COMMONALITY OF INTEREST. AND THE CAUCUS IS NOT THAT

EFFECTIVE. AND YOUS{ DELEGATION IS NOT THAT EFFECTIVE.

AND I CAN CITE AN INSTANCE IF YOU WANT.

MR. LEONARD:

THAT IS ALL.

I THINK WE HAVE YOUR

OPINIOI'I.

EXAMINATION 10:12 A.M.

BY.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

DO I UNDER.S.TAND THAT YOUR TESTII4ONY IS THAT

YOU SIGNED THE BARKER BILL ESSENTIALLY TO DISCHARGE AN

OBLIGATION AND THAT IT RAN. COUNTER TO YOUR PERCEPTION

ABOUT THE RELATIVE VIRTUES OF THE MULTI-MEMBER AND SINGLE

MEMBER DISTRICTS SO FAR AS THE INT:RESTS OF 3LACK

CITIZENS?

A IN 1981--THAT IS CORRECT.

POLITICAL OBLIGATION.

a Do r UNDERSTAI.ID THAT ON THE

KNOI'JLEDGE RESPECT I NG THE C IRCUMSTANCES

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COUNTY WAS RELIEVED OF THE VO }NG RIGHTS OBLIGATIONS

THAT YOU WE:T: A PAR.T I C I PANT I N THE LEGAL 5FFORTS THAT LED

TO THAT ACTION?

YES. IT WAS MY IDEA, JUDGE PHILI-IPS.

AND YOU WENT TO WASHINGTON?

YES__WIT}1 THE COUNTY ATTORNEY AND THE CHI\IRMAN

OF THE BOARD OF ELECTION.

q T{ERE YOU AWARE AT THE TIME OF THE BASIS UPON

WHICH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ACTED AS REFLECTED IN THE

CONSENT ORDER?

TOM BANKS, THE COUNTY ATTORNEY, TOLD I.4E WHAT

THEY DID.

A AT WHAT POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE PROCEEDINGS AS

A DIRECT PARTICIPANT, SO THAT YOU HAD LATER TO GET YOUR

KNOWLEDGE A3OUT WHAT HAPPENED FROM MR. BANKS?

, A WELL, THE. PROCEEDING WAS.-BILL STEVENSON AND

MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--BILL STEVENSON WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE

BOARD OF ELECTIONS. AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN--I THINK HE

WAS AT THAT TIME--AND MARTHA MCLAUGHLIN, WHO WAS THE

SUPERVI SOR OF ELECTIONS, AND TOM BANKS, I^,HO WAS COUNTY

ATTORNEY AND MYSELF, WHO HAD HEADED THE VOTER REGISTRA-

TION DRIVE WHICH HAD RESULTED IN DOUBLING THE REGISTRA-

TION OF BLACKS IN WAKE CoUNTY, WENT TO WASHINGTON---

a (tNTEP.POSING) 1^,ELL, WHEN DID YOU LEAVE THE

PROCESS SO THAT YOUR FIRSTI{AND KNO'J/LEDGE OF WHAT WAS

F P. O 8or 2t'1Gt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

GOING ON CEASED?

A WELL, THERE WAS A CONFERENCE IN WASHINGTON

WiTH THE CIVI L RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE .JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

A YOU PARTICIPATED IN THAT?

A .I PARTICIPATED IN THAT. AS A RESULT OF THAT,

TOM BANKS_-WE CAME BACK. AND TOI4 BANKS DREW THE LAVISUIT.

AND I I^JAS INI CONTACT WITH HIM EITHER PERSONALLY OR BY

TELEPHONE AS TO WHAT WOULD GO IN THERE. AND THEN HE

INFORMED ME THAT THE FBI WAS DOI^/N HERE INVESTIGATING US.

AND JIM SHEPHERD TOLD ME THAT ALSO, WHO IS A BLACK LEADER.

A DO YOU RECALL IF THE CONSENT ORDER IN ITS FINA

FORM REFLECI'S THE BASIS UPON WHICH THE_--

A (INTTRPOSING) NO; I DONTT, JUDGE PHILLIPS. I

JUST KNOW THAT HE TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD CONSENTED.

.J UDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT . THANK YOU .

ANY QUESTIONS FROt4 COU.NSEL?

MS. r'{INNER: NO, SIR.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: . THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

AD.AMS.

MR. LEOI'IARD: MAY THE IdITNESS BE

EXCUSED ?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: MS. WINNER, DO YOU HAVE

ANY OBJECTION TO }.IIS BEING EXCUSED?

MS. WI NNER:

I HAVE NO OBJECTION.

YES, SIR. I AM SORRY.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI-EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

(I^IiTNESS EXCUSED. )

(wnrREUPcN,

THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, DULY SWORN, AND TESTIFIED AS

rOltOWS: )

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 10:17 A.I\,1.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a wouLD You STATE YOUR FULL---

MS. V{INNER: (INTERPOSING) YOUR HONC')

MAY DR. GROFMAN SIT WITH ME AT THE TABLE?

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DR. GRoFMAN MAY SIT wITH

YOU AT THE COUNSEL TABLE.

MS. WINNER.:

BY MR. LEONARD:

THANK YOU.

a woulD you STATE youR FULL NAM: AND YOUR

ADDRESS, PLEASE ?

A THOMAS BROOKS HOF€LLER; 9005 VERNON VIEI, DRIV

ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA.

A ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED?

A I AM.

a BY WHoM ARE YOU EiiPLOYED?

A THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COI'IMITTEE IN I,IASHING-

TON, D. C.

1 AND IN WHAT CAPACITY?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457t
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I AM THE DIRECTOR OF THE COMPUTER SERVICES

DIVISION.

A DO YOUR DUTIES INCLUDE POLITICAL ANALYSIS?

A THEY DO.

A .DO PART OF THOSE DUTIES IN POLITICAL ANALYSIS

INCLUDE VOTER ANALYSIS?

A THEY DO.

A TELL THE COURT BRIEFLY WHAT DEGREES YOU HAVE

AND WHAT YEARS YOU RECEIVED THEM.

A I RECEIVED A BACHELORIS DEGREE FROM CLAREMONT

MENIS COLLEGE IN 1970 AND A PH.D. FROM CLAREMONT GRADUATE

SCHOOL IN 1980.

a WHAT t.tAS THE SUB.JECT OF YOUR DOCTORAL

DI SSERTAT ION?

A MISSISSIPPI REDISTRICTING.

A HAD YOU BEEN ACTIVE IN THE REDISTRICTING OF

THE MISSISSIPPI LEGISLATURE PRIOR TO THE TIME OR DURING

THE TIME YOU WROTE THAT DISSERTATION?

A PRIOR TO THE TIME I HAD BEEN ACTIVE.

A DTD YOU TESTIFY IN FEDERAL COURTS IN

MISSISSIPPI AND IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA I./ITH P.ESPECT

TO CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTING IN THE STATE

OF MISSISSIPPI?

A MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I GAVE A DEPOSITION

FOR THE FEDERAL COURT IN MISSISSIPPI IN REGARD TO THE

F P. O. Bor 2ala
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ST.d.'i'E HOUSE AND SENATE REDISTRICTINGS. AND I TESTIFIED

IN REGARD TO LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING IN THE DISTRICT

COURT IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

A TELL THE COURT WHERE ELSE YOU HAVE TESTIFIED

ON THE SUB.J.ECT OF REDISTRICTING WITH RESPECT TO FEDERAL

COURTS.

I AI..1 SORRY. WITH RESPECT TO---

( I NrrnPos i NG) rrornRu couP.TS ?

FEDERAL COURTS. I TESTIFIED IN THE ILLINOIS

LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING CASE, THE RUBICKI CASE. AND I

TESTIFIED IN THE CHICAGO CITY COUNCIL REDISTRICTING CASE.

THAT WAS A SECTION 2 CASE LAST YEAR.

AND ILLiNOIS CONGRESSIONAL?

YTs-_TnE ILLINOIS CONGRESSIONAL CASE ALSO.

THEY I^TERE RIGHT TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.

A WHAT OTHER STATE REDI"*'CTING WITH RESPECT

TO CONGRESS OR LEGISLATURES HAVE YOU PARTICIPATED IN?

I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN CONGRESSIONAL REDIS-

TRICTING IN CALIFORNIA, TO SOME DEGREE IN WASHINGTON

STATE, IN MINNESOTA, IN ILLINOIS, TO SOME DEGREE IN NORTH

CAROLINA. I HAVE DRAWN PLANS FOR NEW JERSEY. I HAVE

PARTICIPATED IN PREPARATION OF THE COMMITTEEIS AMICUS

BRIEF TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT IN THE NEW JERSEY RE-

DISTRICTING CASE, !,/HICH WAS.JUST DECIDED.

DI STRICTS FOR Tt{E STATE OF'MAINE.

I HAVE DRAWN

F P. O. Bor 261*l
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN MY CAPACITY AS DIRECTOR OF THE REDIS-

TRICTING DIVISION OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEF

I HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE SCOPE OF CON-

GRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING ACROSS THE NATION.

A TELL THE COURT THE FIRST YEAR THAT YOU BECAME

INVOLVED IN THE SUB.JECT OF REDISTRICTING IN A DIRECT AS

OPPOSED TO AN ACADEMIC MANNER.

A rN 1965---

a (trurrRposll.tc) .lusr TELL us THE YEAR.

A rN 1965.

A HAVE YOU SINCE THAT TIME CONTINUOUSLY BEEN

EMPLOYED AND/OR II.IVOLVED IN MATTERS HAVING TO DO WITH

REDISTRICTING OF LEGISLATIVE BODIES?

A NOT PRECISELY CONSISTENTLY. BUT I I-IAVE HAD

EXPERIENCE OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, PARTICULARLY FROM

1970 THROUGH THE PRESENT.

A DID YOU PREPARE DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 36, WHICH

IS YOUR RESUME?

(orr,enoRruTs EXHIBIT No. 36 wAS

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION. )

A I DID.

I.4R. LEONARD: WE OFFER DEFENDANTS I

EXHIBIT 
'6 

AT THIS TIME, IF THE COURT PLEASE.

MS. WINNER:

THE COURT:

NO OBJECTION.

IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OBJECTION.

(oErrruoRrurs EXHIBIT No. ,5 wAS

RECEIVED IN rvTorxcr. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

A .WHEN DID YoU FIRST BECoME INVoLVED IN THE

ISSUE OF THE REDISTRICTING OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATI\E

AND THE SENATE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA?

A THAT WAS IN THE FALL OF 1981.

A TELL THE CCURT L'UST BRIEFLY HOW YOU BECAME

INVOLVED AND WHAT YOU DID.

A I WAS ASKED BY YOU AT.ID BY THE ATTORNEY

GENERALIS OFFICE IN NORTH CAROLINA TO MAKE A DEMOGRAPHIC

EXAMI].,IATION OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA TO ASCERTAIN

WHERE THE CONCE}.ITRATIONS OF RACIAL MINORITIES WERE

PRESENT AND WHERE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTP.ICTS COULD BE

CONSTRUCTED IN THAT STATE

A DURING THE COURSE OF THAT ACTIVITY WHAT, IF

ANY, CONCLUSION OF VJHAT, IFANYTHING, DID YOU LEARN WITH

RESPECT TO THE COVERED VERSUS NON-COVERED AREAS OF THE

STATE?

A I AM NOT SURE I COULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN

THE COVERED AND NON-COVERED COUNTIES. THERE WERE LARGE

CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK RESIDENTS IN THE MAJOR METROPOLI-

TAN AREAS, MOST OF WHICH WERE IN THE NON-COVERED COUNTIES

THERE WERE ALSO SOI.1E IN COVEFIED COUNTIES.

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PRECISION FEPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FOR THE

OF BLACK RESIDENTS

WAS'LIMITED TO THE

a DrD YOU

NORTH CAROLINA WERE

RIGHTS ACT AND THAT

MOST PART, SIGNIFICANT CONCENTRATION

IN RURAL AREAS OR NON-MAJOR CITIES

COVERED COUNTIES.

LEARN THAT SOME OF

COVERED BY SECTTCN

SOME WERE NOT?

THE COUNTIES IN

5 OF THE VOTING

CERTA I NLY.

A DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN DISCUSSIONS WITH COUN-

SEL AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEES OF THE TWO HOUSES WITH

RESPECT TO THEIR DEALINGS }^JITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND

THE SECTION 5 COVERED COUNTIES?

I DON I T RECALL ANY SPEC I FI C DI SCUSS I ONS t^tI TH

LEGISLATORS WITH REGARD TO THAT SUB.JECT. MY EXAMINATION,

AT LEAST IN THE BEGINNING, WAS FAIRLY LIMITED.

DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE THAT THERE WERE

NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WITH

RESPECT TO THAT ASPECTS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE PLAN THAT

HAD TO DO WITH THE COVERED EOUNTIES?

I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD

BETI./EEN I*U TIME WHICH I STARTED AND THE TIME WHI CH THE

FINAL REDISTRICTING LAWS WERE PASSED THAT THERE WAS

A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF NEGOTIATION, IF YOU CAN STYLE IT

AS NEGOTIATION, BETWEEN THE STATE OFFICIALS, THE LEGISLA-

TORS AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET A

PLAN FOR THE STATE WHICH COULD PASS PRE-CLEARANCE.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a VJERE YOU PRESENT DURING THE TESTIMOI'IY OF DR.

BERNARD GRO F}4AN ?

A I WAS.

A HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY_.STRIKE THAT.

I{HEN DID YOU FI RST RECE IVE THE DATA BASE--OR I F THERE IS

A BETTER TERM, PLEASE USE IT_-THAT DR. GROFMAN BASED HIS

CONCLUSiONS ON IN HIS TESTIMONY?

MS. I.,INNER: COULD I ASK HIM TO BE

SPECiFIC WHETHER HE IS TALKING ABOUT AN EXHIBIT OR SOME-

THING ELSE?

MR. LEONARD: I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE

WITNESS DESCRI BE \^IHAT HE RECEIVED FIRST. AND THEI{ WE

WILL TRY TO IDENTIFY IT MORE SPECIFICALLY AS AN EXHIBIT.

\,UDGE PHILLIPS: ARE WE STILL IN THE

PROCESS OF QUALIFYING THIS I'IITNESS?

' MR. LEONARD: NO, YOUR HONOR' No; wE

ARE NOT. I AM SORRY. I WOULD OFFER DR. HOFELLER AS AI''I

EXPERT ON THE SUB.JECT MATTER AS STATED.

MS. I,IINNER: I THINK THAT THAT IS A

LITTLE BROAD FOR EXPERTISE. THERE ARE I4ANY SUBJECT

MATTERS INVOLVED IN THE CASE

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ON WHAT BASIS WAS DR.

GROFMAI'IQUALIFIEDASANEXPERT?DOYOURECALL?

MS . W I I'.INER : I HAVE THAT WR I TTEN DO}'N '

,JUDGE PHILLIPS: WOULD YOU HAVE ANY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

OBJECTION TO THE QUALIFICATION OF DR. HOFELLER ON THE

SAME BASIS?

MS. I.JINNER: I OB.JECT TO DR. HOFELLERI

BEING QUALIFIED ON STATISTICAL METHODOLOGY AND GEI.,IERAL

REAPPORTI ONMENT MATTERS.

.JUDGE pHILLIpS: l,lELL, l.lE NEED SOi'1ETHING

FOR THE RECORD.

MR. LEoNARD:

BY I.1R. LEOIJARD:

MR. LEONARD:

REASONS, TF THE COURT PLEASE.

MAY I ASK THE WITNESS?

I OFFER HIM FOR ALL THOSE

A DR. HOFELLER, IS THAT SATISFACTORY TO YOU?

A I I,JOULD THINK THAT I COULD SAY THAT I HAVE HAD

A GREAT AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE IN REDISTRICTING. AND I

HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF THE PROBLEMS INVOLVED

WITH RACE IN REGARD TO REDISTRICTING AND IN TERI,IS OF THE

oNE-t,lAN, ONE-VOTE RULE AND IN TERMS 0F THE USE OF DATA

FOR ELECTORAL ANALYSIS AND THE PREDICTION OF ELECTION

OUTCOMES

I I.,OULD SAY THAT.IF SHE MEANS THE SAME THING

THAT WE ARE IN AGREEMENT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, T.JE T'IILL ACCEPT HIS

QUALIFICATION AS AN EXPERT IN MATTERS OF STATISTICAL

METHODOLOGY, PARTICULARLY IN RELATION TO PROBLEMS OF

LEG I SLATI VE REAPPORTI ONMENT.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.A57\
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MS. tlINNER: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO

THAT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: I^IELL, HE IS So QUALIFIED.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a - DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE--DrD THE MATERIAL

THAT YOU RECEIVED FROM DR. GROFMAN HAVE EXHIBIT NUMBERS

ON IT OR DOES IT NOh'?

A CERTAINLY; YES.

A COULD YOU TELL THE COURT I,'HEN YOU RECEIVED

THIS MATERIAL THAT YOU HAVE UP ON THE !.,IITNESS TABLE WITH

YOU AND WHAT THE EXHIBIT NUMBERS ARE?

A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN RECITE THE SPECIFIC

EXHiBIT NUMBERS OF ALL THE EXHIBITS THAT DR. GROFMAN

PRODUCED. BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT I F I RST SAI./ THEM V/IIEN

DR. GROFMAN GAVE HIS DEPOSITION HERE IN I4ECKLENBURG.

I BELIEVE IT WAS_-

a (rrurrnPosrNG) wE ARE rN RALETGH.

A I AM SORRY-_IN RALEIGH. I BELIEVE IT WAS A

WEEK AGO LAST FRIDAY WHEN I FIRST SAW THOSE EXHIBITS.

AND I RECEIVED COPIES OF THEM THE NEXT WEEK, ON MONDAY.

A PLEASE IDENTIFY THEM, IF YOU CAN, IF THEY

HAVE EXHIBIT NUI,IBEP.S ON THEM P.UNNING FROI4-_I4AY I APPROACH

THE WITNESS, PLEASE? T''E HAVE GINGLES EXHIBIT 15. I

BELIEVE THAT Tt-iEY START I,/IT!1 13, 14, 15, 16---

.,UDGE pHILLIpS: (tllrrRpOsIt,lc) ttett, MR.

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WITNESS, CAN YOU TESTIFY THAT YOU RECEIVED A GROUP

DOCUMENTS THAT YOU NOW HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSIOI.I AT T

TIME THAT YOU INDICATED YOU RECEIVED THEI..1?

THE WITNESS: yES, YOUR HONOR.

. JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I,IILL YOU READ FRO!'4

DOCUMENTS WHICH YOU SAY YOU RECEIVED ON THOSE DATES

EXHIBIT NUMBERS WITH I^JHICH THEY ARE MARKED?

OF

HE

THOS E

THE

THE I.JI TNESS :

HUGE PILTJ OF THEM.

YOUR HONOR, THERE I S A

MP.. LEONARD : MAY I SHOW THE WITNESS

THE EXHIBIT LIST, IF THE COURT PLEASE? AND I THINK HE

}..lILL RECOGNIZE WHAT HE RECEIVED FROM THE EXHIBIT LIST.

THE I^II TNESS: YOUR HoNOR, I AM NOT

TRYING TO BE EVASIVE HERE. I RECEIVED ALL THE EXHIBITS

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE VERY LARGE PRINTOUTS THAT DR.

GROFMAN PRESENTED. OIO I AM SPE;IFICALLY CONCERNED TODAY

WITH EXHIBITS 1](A) THROUGH (E), 14(A) TNNOUEN (D), 15(A)

THROUGH (H), 16(A) rnnOUeH^(F), 17(A) THRoUGH (r), 18(A)

THROUGH (p).

JUDGE PHILLI PS: AND THOSE I^JERE ALL IN THE

MATERIALS THAT YOU RECEIVED AT THE TIME YOU II{DICATED YOU

RECEIVED THE DOCUMENTS FROM DR. GROFMAN?

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.

BY MR. LEONAR.D :

F P. O. eor 2tla:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a

AGO LAST

RECE IVED

NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY SINCE A I'IEE

FRIDAY OR I,JHENEVER IT WAS LAST WEEK THAT YOU

THOSE DOCUMENTS TO REVIEW THEM?

I HAVEA

. J UDGE PH I LL I PS : WHY DON I T I^,E TAKE A

RECESS BEFORE YOU GET INTO THAT? I,,E \,II LL RECESS UI.,tTI L

10:50.

(rne pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT L0:55 A.M., To

RECONVENE AT 10:50 A.M., THIS SAI4E DAY.)

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 10:50 A.h

JUDGE PHILLIPS: HAVE WE GoT A QUICK

ESTIMATE OF THE PROJECTED TIME HERE BEFORE WE START?

,MR. LEONARD: IF I AI4 PREPARED AS I

THINK I AI.,t, I THINK DR. HOFELLER'S TESTItIONy hrILL

PROBABLY I{L\I' TAKE US BEYOND THE LUNCH HOUR AND MAYBE

BEFORE ON DIRECT. AND HE IS OUR LAST WITNESS. I DON'T

KNOW IF COUNSEL HAS ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ON REBUTTAL

WITNESSES OR NOT.

MS. VJ I NNER : AS I I NFORI4ED MR. LEONARD

TH I S MORN I NG, I CURRENTLY I NTEND TO CALL TI.JO REBUTTAL

wITNESSES, BOTH OF WHOM I BELIEVE WILL BE l5-t"lINUTE

W III.{ESSES.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I,JE

WILL TAKE AN HOUR LUNCH RECESS AND SEE IF },J5 CAN MOVE ON

TOI^/ARD A COMPLETI0I.I HOPEFULLY AROUND MID-AFTERNOON. llE

WILL HAVE A F=W HOUSEKEEPING THINGS TO TAKE CARE OF THEN.

BUT WE !{ONIT IMPOSE ANY ARTIFICIAL BARRiERS CN AIJYBODY.

BUT IF WE COULD MOVE TOVIARD THAT, IT SEEMS TO ME WE COULD

COI4E PRETTY CLOSE TO IT. VJE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO THE

POINT OF TOTAL ABSORPTION.

(eo To THE NEXT PAGE. )

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSGRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

(wnE RE UPON,

THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER

THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RSSUMED

THE STAND ANID TESTIFIED FURTHER A5 TOTIOWS: )

D I R E C T E X A M I I.I A T I O N 1C:52,q.M.
(RESUMED)

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DR. HOFELLER, YOU APPEAR HERE UNDER SUBPOENA;

DO YOU NOT?

A I DO.

A AND YOU ARE NOT APPEARING HERE IN YOUR OFFI_

CIAL CAPACITY ON BEHALF OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL

C OMM I TTEE ?

A NO; I AM NOT. I AM ON VACATION.

A NOW, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMiNE

THE DATA BASE THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAD

RECE IVED SOMETI ME LAST 'dEEK 
FROM DR. GROFMAN ?

MS. t,INNER i .' I OB.JECT. HE DID NOT

TESTIFY HE RECEIVED IT FROI4 DR. GROFMAN.

BY MR. LEONAP.D:

A T,JELL, WHOEVER YOU RECE IVED I T FROM, I T I S DR.

GROFMAN' S MATERIAL. HAVE YOU SATI5FIED YOURSEI-F OF THAT

FACT?

A YES; I HAVE.

A AND IIAVE YOU EXAMINED IT?

^ P. O. Box 2tlfB
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA
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A YES; I HAVE.

a NouJ, You HEARD DR. GROFMAN'S TESTIMONY HERE IN

THE COURTROOM?

A YES; I DID.

a - Do You HAVE AN OPIIIION WI TH RESPECT T0 1.'/IiETHER

OR NOT THE I'IATERIALS TESTIFIED TO BY DR. GROFI{AN AND

RELIED UPON BY DR. GROFMAN WAS SUFFICIENT TO SUPPORT THE

CONCLUSIONS THAT HE DREVJ WITH RESPECT TO SUBSTANTIALLY

SIGNIFICANT R,ACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING AND ELECTIOI'IS IN

NORTH CAROL INA?

A I DO.

a U,HAT IS THAT OPINION?

A T4Y OPINION IS THAT THE MATERIALS ARE NOT

COMPLETE ENOUGH TO DRAW THAT CONCLUSION.

a oN WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR OPINION?

A TO BEGIN W.ITH, DR- enormal'r HAS PRESENTED A

RATHER EXTENSIVE COI4PUTER ANALYSIS OF SOME VOTING STATIS-

TICS AND REGISTRATION STATISTICS IN NORTH CAROLINA WHICH

PERTAIN TO TWO DIFFERENT EXAMINATIONS. FIRST IS THE

EXTREME CASE AI',IALYSI S. AND SECOND I S HI S REGRESS I ON

ANALYS I 5 .

IHAVESoMEVERYGREATMISGIVINGSABoUTTHE

EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, IN THAT THE NUMBER OF EXTREME CASE

PRECINCTS IN SOME OF THE AREAS IS EXTREMELY SMALL' AND

I DO}.II T REALLY BEL I EVE THAT YOU CAI.'I I''IAKE VAL I D PRO'JECTI



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN THE TOTAL ELECT/-)'IATE

BASED UPON THE BEHAVIOR OF VOTERS IN EXTREME CASE PRE-

C INCTS. I THINK THIS WOULD BE TRUE IN BOTH BLACK AND

t^/HITE PRECINCTS IN WHICH, FOR INSTANCE, IF A SMALL I\IUMBER

OF WHITES.qIPEAR IN THE EXTREME CASE PRECII..ICTS, THOSE

l^,llITES MIGHT HAVE SOCIOECONOMIC FACTORS '/HI Cl-{ DI FFER

CONSIDERABLY FROM THOSE OF I,/HITES IN MIXED PRECINC'I S.

THE SAME WOULD BE TRUE FOR BLACKS.

SO I THINK THAT TO RELY TOTALLY ON EXTREME

CASE DATA WOULD BE ERRONEOUS. I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT DR.

GROFMAN DID. BUT TO RELY ON THAT WOULD BE ERRONEOUS.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME FURTHER PROBLEMS

II.I TERMS OF THE REGRESSION MODEL IN THAT THERE IS NO

DATA AVAILABLE, FOR INSTANCE, OhI THE NUMBER OF BLACKS

AND THE NUMBER OF WHITES WHO TURNED OUT TO VOTE IN MIXED

PREC i NCTS. AI.JD THERE I S NO REAL *'O'O* WHY ONE SHOULD

RELY UPON THE FACT THAT THAT TURNOUT MIGHT,BE AS IT WAS

I N THE EXTREME CASE PREC I NCT.S.

A YES. TELL THE COURT WHAT

GOING TO REFER TO, IF ANY.

HERE, AT LEAST--

THE MODEL I.EAD TO

AN EXAMPLE THERE.

EXHIBITS YOU ARE

A I I,IOULD LIKE TO REFER TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 1I+(B).

EXHI BIT 14(B) TS A SUMMA]'ION OF THE HOUSE GENERAL

I ALSO HAVE CASES_-A CASE

\^JHICH I DOUBT THAT THE MATHEMATICS OF

BEL I EVABLE CONCLUS I OI.JS , lF I CAN DRAf.l

F l. O. Bor fll&
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ELECTIoN Il'l NovEMBER oF 1980 FoR MECKLENBURG couNTy.

IF I UNDERSTAND DR. GROFMANIS CALCULATIONS FP.OM HIS

REGRESSION MODEL, ON PAGE 2 LOOKING AT COLUMN t, 2,

5-*COtUMN 5--I NOTE THAT THREE CANDIDATES RECEI\/ED

PE\CENT OF. THE WHITE VOTE.

NOW, COMMONLY, IF YOU RECEIVE A PERCENTACE OR

A DECI;YAL PERCENTAGE OF A CERTAIN VOTE AND YOU KNOW I,JHAT

THE VOTE IS YOU RT:CEIVED, IF YOU DIVIDE THE PERCENTAGE

BACK INTO THE NUMBER OF VOTES YOU SHOULD GET THE TOTAL

NUMBER OF VOTES IN THE POPULATION.

AND HE HAS HERE NUMBERS RANGING FROM OR VLTI.[:)

RANGING FROM 34,429 ON CANDIDATE t2 P.ECEIVING 36 PERCENT

OF THE WHITE VOTE AND ANOTHER CANDIDATE, CANDIDATE 14,

RECEIVING 41,496 pERCENT--I AM SORRy--41,496 VOTES AND Tt

SAME 36 PERCENT OF THE VOTE.

a Nol{, WHEN you REFER rO rne WHITE VOTE, yOU

ARE POINTING TO THE FACT THAT THOSE CANDIDATES RECEIVED

NO BLACK VOTES AT ALL; IS T}IAT CORRECT?

THAT I S CORRECT. OTHERWISE, IT TJOULD BE VERy

DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN THE MIX OF THE VOTES. WE ALSO

HAVE A SITUATION HERE IN WHICH A CANDIDATE RECEIVING

SUPPOSEDLY ACCORDING TO THE MODEL ]6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE

RECEIVED 34,429 VOTES. Tr-tAT IS CANDIDATF_ t2. AND A

CANDIDATE IIHO IS PURPORTED TO RECEIVE ]O PERCENT OF THE

voTE RECEIVED 37,610 VOT5S.

3, 4,

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]'

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O.8or 2al6
LJ i&ltir. xonh C.,o{n 27a[

a BEFORE yOU GO FURTHER, WHEN yOU DO THE

MATHEMATICS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU AS TO THE RANGE OF

THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THE LOWEST TO THE HIGHEST WHO

WOULD HAVE VOTED IN THAT ELECTION BASED ON THE REGRESSION

ANALYS I S ?

A WELL, I DID SOME CALCULATIONS HERE. AND I

DECIDED THAT BASED UPON THE DATA WHICH HE HAS PRESENTED,

THE TURNOUT FOR THE HOUSE ELECTION OR THE ELECTION IN

GENERAL COULD HAVE RANGED ANYWHERE FROM 35r963 TO t06,23

NOW, WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THAT

THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS IN USING REGRESSIOI.I TND MAKING

SURE THAT THE RESULISOF THE REGRESSION MATCH BACK TO THE

REALITY OF THE DATA.

a |{HAT ELSE DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THE PROPORTION

OF WHITE VOTES TO THE CANDIDATES FROM THAT EXHIBIT?

A WELL, AT LEAST FROM THAT EXHIBIT, IF YOU WANT

T'O YOU CAN CALCULATE IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE THE

ACTUAL NUMBER OF BLACK VOTI:RS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE

ELECTION FROM CANDIDATE LINES 8 AND 9. I AM NOT SURE

WHETI-IER THAT IS TERRIBLY RELEVANT, THOUGH.

A ANYTHING ELSE YOU I.'ANT TO CONCLUDE FROM THAT

EXHIBIT?

A NO.

A WHAT ELSE DID YOU CONCLUDE UPON REVIEW OF THE

DATA ?



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN MY EXPERIENCE OF VOTING BEHAVIOR, THERE

IS NO WAY TO VALIDLY ASSUME THAT ONE POPULATION VOTES

HOMOGENEOUSLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE RANGE OR ANOTHER

POPULATION. AND WE HAVE A SITUATION I]ERi IN NORTH

CAROLINA.UNLIKE MANY OTHER SITUATIONS IN I,JHICH THESE

REGRESSIONS MAY HAVE BEEN DONE I^'I-IERE WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE

OF COUNTIES AND A WIDE RANGE OF CITIES.

AND SO IN LAY TERMS, THE RULES BY WHICH THESE

VOTERS MAY BE OPERATING MAY BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. ONE

WOULD FIND IN ANY ELECTION ANALYSIS THAT A DETERMINATION

OF THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF WHITES THAT CROSSED OVER. AND

VOTED FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE AND THE DETERMINATION OF THE

NUMBER OF BLACKS WHO MIGHT HAVE CROSSED OVER AND VOTED

FOR THE WHITE CANDIDATE CAIIINOT BE BASED UPON THE ASSUMP-

TION THAT ALL THE BLACKS VOTED BLACK AND ALL THE I.'HITES

VOTED WHITE.

ALL YOU CAl.l SHOW, PERHAPS, HERE IS YOUR

ESTII4ATED NET EFFECT OF TldE ELECTION, l'lOT THE BEHAVIOR

OF INDIVIDUAL VOTERS.

AI.IOTHER THiNG: IF I HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN

TRYING TO GA'THER DATA TO PROVE THE CASE, I WOULD HAVE

MUCH PREFERRED--FOR INSTANCE, IN A CITY LIKE MECKLENBURG.

TO GO BACK IN AND FIND OUT I,JHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBERS OF

WHITES AND BLACK VOTERS WERE !'II-{O CAI4E TO THE POLLS AND

VOTED. I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36],9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WAY TO TRY AND DETERMINE WHAT MIGHT HAVE GONE ON IN THA

ELECTION.

A IS THAT INFORMATION AVAILABLE FROM THE VOTING

RECORDS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A -TO THE BEST OF MY BELIEF, IT IS.

A WHAT ELSE DID YOU OBSERVE?

A DR. GROFMAN APPEARS TO GIVE A VERY GREAT

WEIGHT TO THE CORRELATION BETWEEN TWO VARIABLES, WHERE

ONE VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF BLACK REGISTRATIOI.I AI.ID

THE OTHER VARIABLE IS THE PERCENT OF PERFORMANCE BY THE

BLACK CANDIDA HS.

HE WENIT THROUGH THE DATA. AND HE LISTED OUT

THAT THERE WERE CORRELATION COEFFICIENTS THAT WEP.E

EXTREMELY HIGH. AND THERE WERE SIGNIFICANCES THAT WERE

EXTREMELY LOW, WHICH MADE THEM VERY GOOD. AND I DONIT

ARGUE THAT THOSE CORRELATIONS AND SIGNIFICANCE REPRESENT

THE RELATIONSHIP OF THOSE TWO VARIBLES.

I I,JOULD JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT MY OPINION

IS THAT ONE WOULD FIND THAT SORT OF CORRELATION BETWEEN

WHITE AND BLACK VOTING BEHAVIOR IN OTHER RACES WHERE

WHITES AND BLACKS WERE CANDIDATES AND IN OTHER RACES IN

WHICH OTHER ISSUES WERE AT STAKE_-THAT THE PRESENCE OF

HIGH DEGREE OF CORRELATI,ON AND HIGH SIGNIFICA.NCE DOES NOT

REAI.LY PROVE THE CAUSALITY OF HIS .JUDGMENT THAT THERE I5

S I GI.II F I CANT RAC IALLY POLAR I ZED BLOC VOT I NG .

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a57\
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

IT IS VERY ACADE14ICALLY EXCITII..IG TO HAVE

THAT CORRELATE {;O WELL. BUT I AM NOT SURE THAT IT WOULD

BE FAIR TO DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT IT PROVES HIS POINT,

ESPECIALLY WHEN EVIDENCE IS NOT PRESENTED AS TO WHETHER

OR NOT THOSE KINDS OF VOTING BEHAVIORS ARE PRESENT ANY_

WHERE ELSE IN THE STATE OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE NATION.

WHAT OTHER OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE?

AGAIN, IN MY OPINION I THINK THAT IT IS VERY

DIFFICULT FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN ELECTORAL ANALYSIS TO

USE JUST THE RESULTS OF VOTES AS A MODEL FOR DETERMINING

I^.|HAT HAPPENED I N AN ELECT I ON. THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER

oF FACTORS--SOME OF WHI CH ,qRE QUANT I FIABLE, SOME OF WHI CH

AR.E NON_QUANTIFIABLE--WHICH ARE PRESENT IN ANY ELECTION

IN ANY GIVEN YEAR, SUCH AS THE POSITIONS OF THE CANDIDATI:

ON ISSUES. AFTER ALL, ELECTIONS ARE DECIDED BY ISSUES.

I THINK IT WOULD BE NAIVE TO ASSUME THAT EVERY

ELECTION IS DECIDED UPON THE RACE OF THE CANDIDATE.

FINANCING IS AN ISSUE. THE GENERAL APPROVAL RATING OF

THE CANDIDATE IS AN ISSUE. THE CANDIDATETS SKILL AS A

CANDIDATE AND THE SKILL OF THE PERSONS WHO ARE MANAGING

HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN ARE IMPORTANT. NAI'IE I.D. IS IMPOR-

TANT. BALLOT POSITION IS IMPORTANT. THE GENERAL ATMOS-

PHERE IN THAT CAMPAIGN YEAR IS IT1PORTANT. TII[ SAME

CHARACTERISTICS FOR THE OTHER CANDIDATES ARE ALSO

I MPORTANT.

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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SO I GUESS WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS

THAT THE CORRELATION AI'IALYSIS AND THE STATISTICAL SIGNI_

FICANCE AND ALL THAT DATA IN THE PRINTOUTS IS ONLY ONE

FACTOR IN TRYING TO LEAD TO AN EVALUATION OF THE ELECTIO

AND THEREFO.RE, ONE SHOULD NOT NECESSARILY GIVE THE

WEIGHT THAT ONE MIGHT FEEL ON THE CORRELATION OVER TO THE

OTHER FACTORS WHEN SOMEBODY IS MAKING A DETERMINATION.

A NOW, SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION

OF POSITION ON THE BALLOT, DID YOU LOOK AT A MECKLENBURG

COUNTY ELECTION WHERE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A FACTOR?

A I DID.

a TELL THE COURT THE BAC!'.GROU|{D FOR THAT, !,JHy

YOU LOOKED AT IT AND l^rHAT YOU CONCLUDE FROM IT.

A WELL, IN THE i9B2 HOUSE RACE, CANDIDATE

RICHARDSON, WHO VJAS BLACK, LOST BY 250 VOTES.

A THIS IS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?

A THIS WAS IN THE GENERAL ELECTION. I I.JAS

INTERESTED AS TO WHY THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED. ONE CONCLU_

SION I DREW FROM LOOKING AT THE DATA WAS THAT THERE \,JAS A

DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF VOTES RECEIVED BY

RICHARDSON IN HIGHLY BLACK PRECINCTS AS FP.CM BERRY, WHO

WAS THE OTHER BLACK CANDIDATE. AND THAT DIFFERENCE

EXCEEDED THE DIFFERENCE IN THE VOTE.

I.N ADDITION TO THAT, I WAS INTERESTED--AS I A

IN ALL ELECTIONS--ON BALLOT PLACEI1ENT, l^IHICH IS VERY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IMPORTAI{T. A LOT OF LEGISLATURES HAVE MODI FIED ELECTIO

LAWS THROUGHOUT THE STATES OV5R THE YEARS TO ROTATE THE

BALLOT IN ORDER TO GIVE FAIRNESS TO THAT FACTOR.

THE INFORMATION THAT I WAS GIVEN IS THAT NORTH

CAROLINA CALLS FOR ROTATION ON THE PRIT,IARY BALLOT BUT

DOES NOT CALL FOR ROTATION ON THE GENERAL BALLOT.

MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO THE }IEARSAY

AND MOVE TO STRIKE IT UNLESS HE SAYS WHERE HE GOT IT FROM

OR WHAT THE BASIS OF THAT KNOWLEDGE IS.

MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO GO

INTO THAT, IF THE COURT WANTS ME TO.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I THINK YOU BETTER

QUALIFY HIM ON THE BASIS OF HIS KNOWLEDGE.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A NOW, I^IITH RESPECT TO THE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY

OF TJALLOT PLACEMENT AS. BETWEEN PRIMARY AND GENERAL

ELECTIONS, }JHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU MAKE TO DETERMINE

WHAT THE NORTH CAROLINA LAW.WAS OI.I THAT SUB.JECT?

A I REQUESTED THnr JIM I^'ALLACE FROM THE ATTORNEY

GENERALIS OFFICE LOOK AT THE LAW AND FIND OUT WHAT THE

LAW WAS WITH REGARD TO THE BALLOT. AND HE DID SO. AND

MY CONCLUSION IS BASED UPON THE INFORMATION WHICH HE GAVE

TO ME.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: CANIT }^.lE JUDICIALLY

NOT ICE_--

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MS . I^J I NNER : ( I nrrn Pos i NG ) I 'i^:r)u Lt)

L I KE TO BE TOLD I^JHAT THE STATUTE I S, S INCE I T DOES NOT

COMPORT WITH MY KNOI^/LEDGE OF WHAT THE LAW IS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DOESN'T THE COURT

SIMPLY SAY-THAT WE I"JILL TAKE JUt.)ICIAL NOTICE oF I^,IHAT THE

LAW IS? AND IF IT IS AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE DOCTOR TIJINKS

IT IS, WE }^IILL DISREGARD ANYTHING HE SAYS ABOUT IT.

MS. WINNER:

BY MR. LEONARD:

THAT IS FiNE.

a WHAT DrD MR. WALLACE TELL yOU t{AS THE PROCE-

DURE IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A IT WAS AS I STATED--THAT THERE I,JAS ROTATION

IN THE PRIMARY. AND THERE T.JA5 ALPHABETIC POSITIONING IN

THE GENERAL ELECTION.

A WHAT T,IAS THE VOTE D I FFERENT I AL BY WH I CH MR .

RICHARDSON FAI LED TO BE F:LECTED I; THE GENERAL ELECTIOT.I?

A 250 VOTES.

A WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE TOTAL VOTE WAS THAT?

A I BELIEVE IT WAS ROUGHLY .3 OF 1 PERCENT_-.29

SPECI FICALUY.

A WHERE DID YOU FIND MR. RICHARDSON TO BE ON THE

BALLOT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IN MECKLEI.JBURG COUNTY IN

r982?

A LAST.

A DR. HOFELLER, FROI4 YOUR EXPERIENCE IN ELECTI

F P. O. Bor 2tl0s
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AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, Do YoU HAVE AN oPII'IIoN AS

TO WHETHER OR NOT MR. RICHARDSONIS PLACEMENT ON THE BALLO

IN THAT ELECTION WAS A SIGNIFICAI,IT FACTOR IN HIS DEFEAT?

A IN MY OPINION, I THINK IT COULD BE l^JE IG|IED AS

A S I GN I FI CAI)JT FACTOR.

a WHAT I\,AS THE PEIICENTAGE OF VOTES IN |4ECKLEN_

BURG COUNTY IN THAT ELECTION THAT YOU FOUND VTAS THE

SUBJECT OF DR. GROFMANIS ANALYSIS?

A I AM SORRY. I WOULD HAVE TO G:T THE EXHIBIT

OUT HERE. ARE YOU REFERRING TO GINGLES EXHIBIT 14(D)?

YES?

A COULD YOU STATE THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE?

A WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTE THAT WAS

ANALYZED IN THE GROFMAN ANALYSIS?

A I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.

a WHEN you Loo-KED AT THE EXHIBIT, TIHAT WAS THE

PERCENTAGE OF TItE ACTUAL VOTE CAST THAT WAS THE DATA BASE

THAT DR. GROFMAN USED TO COMEITO HIS CONCLUSION?

A I UNDERSTAND NOW. CANDIDATE 1, BERRY,

RECEIVED 92 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTE ACCORDING TO THE

REGRESSION ESTIMATE, 86 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREME CASE

HE RECEIVED 42 PERCENT OF THE \.'HITE VOTE ACCORDING TO

REGRESSION AND 43 PERCENT ACCORDING TO EXTREII4E ESTIMATE.

RICHARDSON HAD SIMILAR FIGURES OF 88 AND 82

FOR THE BLACK VOTE AND 29 AND 29 FOR THE !',HITE VOTE.

F P. O. lor 2A16
lJ i.rdoh, |adn C.(h ?rrrl



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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876-4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DID YOU MAKE AN ANA'/SIS OF GINGLES EXHIBITS

16(E) AND 16(F)?

A I I.,|CULD LIKE, IF I COULD BE ALLOh'ED TO, TO

MAKE ONE FURTHER COMMENT ON THIS EXHIBIT.

A AS LONG AS YOU HAVE IT IN FRONT OF YOU, PLEASE

DO.

MS. WINNER: I I)B.JgCT TO T!IE ',ITNESS

TESTIFYING WITHOUT A QUESTION.

MR. LEONARD: WE ARE GOII..IG TO GO THRO

EACH ONE OF THESE EXHIBITS, IF THE COURT PLEASE.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WHY DONTT YOU ASK HIM IF

HE HAS ANY FURTHER CONCLUSIONS ON 14(D)?

BY MR. LEONARD:

a ARE YOU STILL ON 14(B), DR. HOFELLER?

A 14(D).

A WITH RESP.ECT TO GIN6LES EXHI BIT 14(D), WHAT

OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE WITH RESPECT TO THAT IN YOUR

ANALYS I S OF DI?. GROFMAN I S, TE ST I MONY ?

A I WOULD .JUST LIKE TO ADD THAT DR. GROFMAN HAS

PRESENTED Tt^,O WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE BLACK AND WHI TE

VOTE IN THESE ELECTIONS. OI.IE OF THEM IS THE PERCET\ITAGE

OF ALL OF THE VOTES THAT WERE CAST FOR ALL OF THE CANDI-

DATES IN THESE MULTIPLE CANDIDATE ELECTIONS IN THE I'1ULTI-

MEI'4BER DISTRICTS. THAT IS NOT OII THIS EXHIBIT. THAT IS

oN ANOTHER EXHIBIT, I B=l-lEVE.

P. O. Bor -lGt
lJ hd.aeh, taodrr c.rolro 2?crr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

HE PRESENTS ON THIS EXHIBIT THE PERCENTAGE

OF THE PERSONS WHO CAST BALLOTS IN THE ELECTION WHO VOTED

FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE OR THE WHITE CAI,IDIDATE. THIS HAS

SOME DEGREE OF ERROR IN IT, IN THAT THERE IS A PRESUMPTI

HERE THAT THE SAME NUI.IBER OF VOTERS WHO WENT TO THE POLLS

AND DROPPED A BALLOT IN THE BALLOT BOX MARKED ANYBODY

IN THIS HOUSE ELECTIOII,I. THERE IS A FACTOR CALLED RoLL-

OR VOTER FATIGUE OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, IN

WHICH AS YOU GO DOWN THE BALLOT THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR

PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE. THAT IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS PRESENT

IN ALMOST EVERY ELECTION.

BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, ,qLSO IT IS IMPORTANT TO

NOTE AND I THINK IT WOULD BE ILLUSTRATIVE TO NOTE THAT

PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE THE CANDIDATE WHO RECEIVED THE

HIGHEST NUMBER OF VOTES IN THIS ELECTION FOR THE HOUSE

ACCORDI NG TO H I S REGRESS I ON I'4ODEL, 58 PERCENT OF THE VOTE

WHEN COMP,qRED TO THE AMOUNT OF VOTE THAT BERRY, FOR

INSTANCE, RECEIVED--HE GOr -72.4 PERCENT AS MUCH SUPPORT

AS CANDIDATE II+.

IT IS SORT OF LIKE TAKING A VOTER SURVEY WHERE

YOU WOULD SAY--AND PARDON ME FOR THE EXAMPLE--PRESIDENT

REAGAN NOW IS 42 PERCENT IN A HEAD-TO-HEAD POLL WITH

MONDALE, FOR iNSTANCE--AND THAT IS NOT AN El'IDORSEMENT--

BEING ]8 PERCENT.

NO\,J, I T I SI.I I T AS I MPORTANT NEARLY TO SAY THAT

F 2. O.8d 2ala
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457],

PHOENIX ARIZONA

REAGAN GOT 42 PERCENT BUT AS TO SAY THAT REAGAN LED

MONDALE BY I+ PERCENT. THERE IS A PRESUMPTIoN THAT THAT

UNACCOUNTED FOR 20 PERCENT I S GO I NG TO DO SOMETI-1ING WHEN

THEY ACTUALLY COME AND CAST THEIR BALLOTS.

SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU MIGHT ALSO

WANT TO LOOK AT THIS DATA IN AI{OTHER I^IAY TO SAY WHAT

PERCENTAGE DID THE BLACK CANDIDATE RECEIVE IN RELATION-

SHIP TO THE PERCENTAGE THAT THE HIGHEST RANKING WHITE

CANDIDATE RECEIVED. THIS IS ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT TH

DATA.

A DID YOU, AS A MATTIR OF FACT, MAKE SOME COMPU-

TATIONS FOR THE PROPORTION OF WHITE VOTES THAT THESE

VARIOUS CANDIDATES RECEIVED FROM THE DATA ON GiNGLES

EXHIBIT I4(D)?

A I DID.

A WHAT PERCENTAGE USING iNO' METHODOLOGY DID THE

BLACK CANDIDATE BERRY, CANDIDATE NUMBER I, RECEIVi:?

A 72.4.

A AND WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE I,IHITE VOTE DID

CANDIDATE NUMBER 8, CANDIDATE RICHARDSON, RECEIVE OF THE

I^/H I TE VOT E ?

A 50.

A NOI.,, VJITH RESPECT TO THAT EXHI BIT, DID YOU

DETERMINE HO'/I MANY EXTREME CASES WERE REPRESEI'JTED BY DR.

GROFMANIS ANALYSIS?

F P. O. lor 2alfi
lJ R.hach, Nodh C.oxn. 2tall



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAtEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 1

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A TO THE BEST OF MY KI.JOWLEDGE, THAT WAS--I

BELIEVE THREE OR FOUR PRECINCTS AMOUNTED TO ROUGHLY 5

PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS.

a DR. HOFELLER, DO yOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO

WHETHER OR NOT AN ANALYSIS WHICH REPRESENTS TVJO OR THREE

PRECINCTS AND 5 PERCENT OF THE BLACK VOTERS IS STATISTI-

CALLY SIGNIFICANT?

A I CERTAINLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD DE-

FEND THE POS I T I ON THAT I T I^'OULD BE REPRESENTAT I VE OF HOW

THAT TOTAL POPULATION WOULD BEHAVE.

a NOW, I.JOULD yOU REFER--LET ME ASK yOU: yOU

TESTIFIED TO GINGLES EXHIBITS 1'+(B) RruO (D). DO YOU HAVE

ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO THOSE EXHIBITS?

NO; I DONTT.

A ALL RIGHT.

16(E) aruo 16(F) ANO ASK

II IN EACH OF THOSE TWO

TO FIND THOSE?

I TAKE 
'OY 

TO GINGLES EXHIBITS

YOU SPECIFICALLY TO TURN TO PAGE

EXHIBITS. HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE

NOT YET. I HAVE.

WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM AN ANAL'TSI S OF

THOSE TWO EXHIBITS?

A WELL, I AM SORRY. AND IF YOU WILL LOOK AT THE

FIR.ST PAGE, YOU WILL NOTE UNLESS I READ INCORRECTLY THAT

THEY ARE BOI r-l l-t'lE NOVEMBER I 82 GENERAL ELECT I ON. ANt)

THEY ARE INDEiD THE SAME ELECTION.

F P. O. Bor 2lllxl
u R.hgh. Nodh C.rotin. 27ctt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A AND IN I^JHAT COUNTY?

A I N DURHAI4 COUNTY. AI.{D I SEE HERE AN EST I MATE

OF THE ESTII.IATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF BLACK VOTERS

AND THE ESTIMATED PROPORTION OF TURNOUT OF WHITE VOTERS

IN ONE DOCUMENT OF 56 FOR THE BLACK, 4g FOR THE VIHITE.

A LETIS IDENTIFY THE DOCUMENT. WHAT IS IT?

A THAT IS (E)_-GINGLES EXHII}IT 16(E).

A ALL RIGHT.

A IT STATES THE B!-ACK VOTER TURNOUT AS 55 PER-

CENT AND THE WHITE VOTER TURNOUT AS 49 PERCENT. AND

GINGLES EXHIBIT 16(T) TSTIMATES THE BLACK TURNOUT AT 4B

PERCENT AND THE WH I TE TURNOUT AT I+5 PERCENT.

NOW, IF MY UNDERSTANDING OF ELECTIONS IS

CORRECT, THE SAITE GROUP OF PEOPLE CAST THE SAME BALLOTS

FOR THE SAME OFFI CES. AND THEREFORE, THOSE F I GUiIES OUGHT

TO BE THE SAME; OR I AM NOT CLEAR ON EXACTLY WHAT THIS

ANALYSi S MEANS.

a so rHAT GINGLES^EXHIBIT 16(E) WrrH RESPECT TO

REGRESSION ESTIMATES FOR THE BLACK VOTERS AI.ID WT{ITE

VOTERS \.JAS 53 PERCENT AND 47 PERCENT RESPECTIVELY?

A IT IS.

A AND THEN THE CONDESCRIPTIVE OR EXTREME CASb

ANALYSIS ESTIMATE IS 56 AND '+9 RE5?ECTIVELY?

A IT IS.

a AND OrJ EXHrBrr 16(F), YOUR POINT IS THAT THOSE

A P. O. Bd 2tlN
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PERCENTAGES ARE DI FFERENT OR LOWER OR BOTH?

A I^,ELL, THEY ARE BOTH LOT^,ER AND D I FFERENT. THE

ONE POINT ABOUT THEM, PERHAPS, IS THAT THEY RANK THE

RACES THE SAME ON TURNOUT ON THE TWO EXHIBITS.

A WHAT DO YOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT?

A WELL, I CONCLUDE FROM THAT THAT EITHER THERE

IS AN AMBIGUITY ON THE DOCUMENTS AS TO WHAT THESE

PARTI CULAR FI GURES MEAN--MY UNDERSTAI.IDI NG THAT TURNOUT

IS THE NUMBER OF REGISTERED VOTERS WHO COME TO THE POLLS-

AI']) A LOT OF TESTII4ONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THIS BASIS oN

FI GURES SUCH AS THESEi OR THE DATA ARE S IMPLY ,'^IRONG.

a ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID yOU EXAt'lINE GINGLES

EXHIBIT 1](K)? EXCUSE ME. DID YOU HAVE AI'IY OTHER

OBSERVATIONS I.'ITH RESPECT TO_--

A (IruTTRPOSING) I .'UST VJANT TO CLARIFY U'HAT I

AM SAYING, IT I'1AY WELL BE--_

a (tNrenPosING) coulD You usE THE BLACKBoARD?

WOULD THAT HELP?

A NO. NO. I DONIT NEED THE BLACKBOARD. ON

TH|ISE TWO EXHIBITS, IT MAY WI:LL BE THAT THAT FIGURE

REPRESENTS THE TURNOUT FOR THAT RACE--FOR THE HOUSE RACE

AND FOR THE SENATE RACE. I AM NOT SURE. BUT IT DOESNIT

REPRESENT THE POTENTIAL NUMBERS OF BLACK AND WHITE

VOTERS '/,JHO CAME TO THE POLLS OR THE TURNOUT OF THE

POTENTIAL NUMBER OF REGISTERED BLACK AND WHITE VOTERS WH

a P, O. Bor 281(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COULD HAVE COME TO THE POLLS.

AND SINCI: TURNOUT IS GOING To BE AT ISSUE HERE

I THINK THAT THESE FIGURES ARE SOT1EWHAT AMBIGUOUS. AND

IT SHOULD BE CLARIFIED AS TO I^IHAT THEY ARE.

A ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THOSE EXHIBITS?

A NO.

a Now, vJouLD you Go, eLEASE, TO EXHI B IT lr(K)__

rfie MECKLENBURG ELECTToN FoR THE sENATE rN 1982?

A YES.

a Do you NEED TO COMPARE THAT WrTH 13(M) eNO (O)

h,H ICH I BELIEVE ALL RELATE TO THE SAME ELECTION? WHAT

DID YOU DETERMINE FROM YOUR EXAMINATION OF THOSE EXHIBIT

A GIIIGLES EXHIBITS 13(K) Ri.IO 1](M) ARE, AS I

UNDERSTAND THEM, A SUBSET OF 1](O). IT IS REALLY ONE

ELECTION EXAMINATION WITH A SUBDIVISION OF THE ELECTORATE

THE INTERESTING POINT.TO NOTE N'*' PERHAPS_-AND I DONIT

THINK IT IS TOO GREATLY SIGNIFICANT_-IS THAT THE PERCEN-

TAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK IN CABARRUS COUNTY WAS

37 PERCENT. AND THE PERCENTAGE OF VOTES RECEIVED BY POLK

IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY IS 3I PERCENT. THERE IS SOME

INFERENCE, PERHAPS, IN PREVIOUS I'ESTIMONY THAT CABARRUS

COUNTY TOTALLY REJECTED POLK; OF HIS REJECTION BY

CABARRUS COUNTY OR HIS PLACEMENT IN CABARRUS COUNTY COST

HII'1 THE ELECTION.

A POLK IJAS THE BLACK CA}IDIDATE IN THE NOVEMBER

A P. O. tor irardt
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a57 1

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

I 82 SENATE GENERAL ELSCTION Itt POLK AND CABARRUS

COUNTIES?

THAT IS CORRECT.

AND HE RAN_-HE GOT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE

BLACK VOTE IN CABARRUS? IS IT BLACK OR WHITE VOTE?

A THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THE !^IHITE VOTE IN

CABARRUS COUNTY THAN HE DID IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

DR. HOFELLER, IN DR. GROFMANIS DIRECT TESTI-

MONY HE MADE SOME ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT THERE HAD BEEN

THREE BLACK PEOPLE I^IHO HAD BEEN APPOI NTED TO THE LEG I S-

LATURE. AND WHEN THEY SOUGHT RE-ELECTION, THEY WERE

DEFEATED. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION I,IITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNI

FIC,{NCE OF THAT FACT WITH RESPECT TO R,qCIALLY POLARIZED

VOTING OR BLOC VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA?

WELL, I THINK PERHAPS THE SIGNIFICANT FIGURE_-

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HJS STATEMENT HERE IS THAT HE STATED

THAT THERE WERE, I BELIEVE, THREE API]OINTED BLACKS WHO

SOUGHT RE-ELECT ION AS APPOTNTED INCUMBE}.ITS. AND THEY ALL

LOST. AND THEREFORE, ONE CAN DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT

APPOINTED BLACK I\:CUMBENTS LOSE OR ARE VERY LIKELY TO

LOSE IN IICR.TH C\i]OLINA.

AT Tl'{E SAME TII{E, !-{E IS HAPPY TO SAY THAT

BECAUSE TI:: FACT T!.]AT NO BLACK INCUMBENT I^/HO 1^IAS ELECTED

HAC, ['/:R L')ST I^'HEN !1E SEEKS A:-ELECT ION HAS ABSOI-tJTELY NO

BEA?.:NG ON THE PROsAIJI LITY OF A BLACK WHO I S AN INCUIUBENT

F P. O. lor 2tlB
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 t

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BEING RE-ELECTID. i DONIT THINK YOU CAN PLAY THE

STATISTICAL GAME BOTH WAYS. IF YOU ARE GOING To Wt:IGH

PAST OCCURRENCE IN ONE CASE, YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY A

SUCCESS BY WEIGHTING IT IN ANOTHER OCCURRENCE.

A DID YOU FIND INSTANCES WHICH--EXCUSE ME. LET

ME WITHDRAI^/ THAT. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE GROFMAN DATA To

DETERMINE_-I AM SORRY. HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE DATA I,JITH

RESPECT TO THESE VARIOUS ELECTIONS I,/ITH RESPECT TO HI S

CONCLUSIONS VERSUS THE CONCLUSIONS YOU MIGHT COME TO FROM

ANALYZING THOSE ELECTIONS?

A YES.

a wFrp.T DID YOU CONCLUDE?

A I CONCLUDED THAT THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT

EVIDENCE PRESENTED, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE STATISTICAL

DATA AND IN TERMS OF THE OTHER EVIDENCE PRESENTED, TO

SUPPORT A CONCLUSION ]HAT THERE 
'' 

A VIOLATION OF SECTION

2 IN THAT THERE IS SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZED BLOC

VOTING.

A WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT CONCLUSIQN ON?

MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I AM SORRY.

I HAVE LOST SOMETHIt.{G. I THOUGHT HE WAS TESTIFYING ABOUT

APPOINTIVE INCUMBENTS VERSUS ELECTED INCUMBENTS. HAVE

YOU MOVED ON?

MR. LEONARD: YES.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS: I UNDERSTOOD THAT WE HAD

F P. O. &r :'ll{I!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

GOT OFF ON ANOTHER QUESTION, MORE OR LESS.

MS. WINNER: I APOLOGIZE. COULD I

ASK THAT YOU TELL ME THE QUESTION ONCE AGAIN SO I CAN

CATCH UP WITH THE TESTIMONY?

MR. LEONARD: I WILL BE HAPPY TO

RESTATE I T.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WSULD YoU Do THAT,

couNSEL, FOR MS. WINNER'S BENEFIT?

MS. WINNER:

BY , MR. I-EONARD:

I APPRECIATE THAT.

a AS you ANALYZED THE ELECTTONS THAT DR. GROI-|IAN

TESTIFIED TO, DID YOU COME TO DIFFERI}IG CONCLUSIONS THAN

HE DID WITH RESPECT TO THE SIGNIFICANCE--AND PARTICUL,qRLY

THE SIGNIFICANCE AS IT HAS TO DO WITH RACIALLY OR VIITH

SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN

ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A I DID

a wouLD you EXPLALN TO THE COURT t.'Hy yOU CAME TO

A D I FFERENT CONCLUS I ON--FI RST OF ALL, I^JHAT CONCLUS I ON

DID YOU COME TO?

A I CAI4E TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IN MY OPINION

THE DATA DOES NOT SUPPORT A CONCLUSION OF SIGNIFICANT

RACIAL POLARIZED BLOC VOTING.

A YOU ALMOST SAID SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNIFICANT

RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?

F P. O. eor ,l&
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 1

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

\

MS. I,'/INNER:

WORDS I N THE MOUTH OF THE

MR. LEONARD:

BE CONSISTENT FOR THE BENEF

NOT USING DIFFERING---

JUDGE PHI LL I PS :

I OBJECT TO HIS PUTTING

WITNESS.

I AM HOPING THAT WE CAN

IT OF THE COURT SO THAT WE ARE

(IrurrRPoSING) I UIIDER-

STAND THAT COUI.,ISEL ATTEMPTED TO REPEAT THE TESTTMONY OF

DR. GROFMAN THAT HE DID ON THE BASIS OF THIS DATA CON-

CLUDE THAT THERE WAS SUBSTANTIALLY---

MR. LEONARD: (TrurrRpoSING) SIGNIFI-

CANT RACIALLY POLARiT.ED VOTING IN ELECTIONS.

MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, I REALLY DO

NOT MEAN TO BE GETTING PICKY. IN THE DEPOSITION OF DR.

HOFELLER, HE WAS USING SOME DIFFERENT TERMINOLOGY THAN

GROFMAN AND TO MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS. AND SO I SIMPLY

WANT TO BE CLEAR WHETHER HE IS USTruE DR. GROFI4AN'S WORDS

OR HIS OWN WORDS. AND I THINK HE HAS MIXED THEM.

BY MR. LEONARD: ,

a Now, WHAT DO yOU CITE TO THrS COURT TO SUPPORT

YOUR CONCLUSION THAT YOU DO NOT FIND SUBSTANTIALLY SIGI'II_

FICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IN NORTH

CAROL I NA?

A PLEASE REPEAT THAT. I WAS HONING iN IN YOUP.

TERM THERE INSTEAD OF YOUR QUESTION. I AM SORRY.

a GIVE THE COURT YOIJR EVIDENCE r^fl1y you REACHED

F P. O. Bor atB
lJ h.r.aeh. Noe C.roil[ arrtl



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PRECISlON REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT CONCLUS ION.

A OKAY. THANK yOU. F I RST OF ALL, MS. W I NIIER I S

CORRECT IN THAT IN MY DEPOSITION I DEFINED THE TERMS

SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY. I DEFINED ''POLARIZED VOTING, '' BE

IT SIGNIFICANT OR OTHERWISE, AS A SITUATION IN I^IHICH

BLACK VOTE AND WHITE VOTE OR ANY OTHER VOTES DIFFER

SIGI,IIFICANTLY.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU COULD TAKE ANY SUBSET OF

THE POPUI..,\TION AND PULL THEM OUT OF THE MAIN BODY. AND

THEIR BEHAVIOR IS DIFFERENT.

I DEFINED i'ALOC VOTING'' AS THE CASE IN WHICH

THAT POLARIZED VOTING BECOMES THE REASON WHY BLACK VOTERS

ARE DENIED EQUAL PROTECTION OR THAT BLACK VOTERS ARE

SHUT OUT OF THE ELECTION PROCESS AND CANIT ELECT THEIR

CANDIDATES OR PARTICIPATE EQUALLY.

I THINK THAT, THE AREA OF DEFINITION OF \.IHAT

CONSTITUTES A SECTION 2 VIOLATION IS VERY HAZY. CERTAIN-

LY IN THE CASE OF BOLDEN,WHERE THERE WAS A CITY COUNCIL

THAT WAS TOTALLY AT LARGE AND WHERE THE BLACKS FAILED TO

RECEiVE ANY SEATS WHEN THEY HAD 40 PERCENT OF THE VOTE

AND THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THAT WAS NOT IN VIOLATION

BECAUSE THERE WAS NO INTENT PROVEN-_CERTAINLY THAT IS NOT

THE'STANDARD.

AND INDEED, THEI REASON THAT CONGRESS PASSED

SECTION 2-_*

A P. O. gor 2at(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MS. WINNER: (INTERPOSING) I OB.JECT

TO THE WITNESS STATING HIS INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW AND

WHAT THE CONGRESSIONAL INTENT--_

JUDGE PHI LL I PS : (T Nrrnpos ING) SUSTAI N

THE OBJECTION. AT PERIL OF SOME INTERVENTION, LET ME

SAY THAT I THINK WE WILL BE BEST AIDED AND THAT COUNSELIS

CASE I,IILL NOT SUFFER IF DR. HOFELLER IS REQUIRED TO GIVE

HIS CONCLUSION IN WHATEVER TERMS HE WANTS TO EMPLOY TO

DESCRIBE HIS OPINION AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIZED OR

BLOC VOTING WITHOUT RELATING IT TO LEGAL CONCEPTIONS.

AND LET THE COURT THEN DO THE BEST IT CAN WITH

INTERPRETING WHATEVER CONFLICTS THERE ARE BETWEEN THE TI.IO

EXPERTS AS THEIR TESTIMONY BEARS UPON THE ISSUE OF

POL/TRIZED VOTING WITHIN A LEGAL FRAMEWORK.

IN OTHER WORDS, I WILL SUSTAIN OBJECTIONS IN

WHICH THE DOCTOR ATTE}4PTS TO DRA; INTO HIS TERMINOLOGY

THE LEGAL STANDARD

MR. LEONARD: MAY I MAKE AN OFFER OF

PROOF?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: GO AHEAD.

MR. LOENARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I AM

GOING TO STATE IT VERY BRIEFLY SO WE DONIT HAVE TO TAKE

UP THE TIME OF PUTTING ON THE RECORD WHAT THE COURT HAS

ALREADY SUSTAINED.

DR. HOFELLER! S TESTIMONY WI LL SF:OW THAT HE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.a571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IS INDEED A STUDENT OF SECTION 2 AND SECTION 5, ALTHOUG

HE IS NOT A LAWYERi THAT THE DIFFICULTY IN ATTEMPTING To

CONCLUDE I,JHAT IS AND WHAT I5 NOT RACIALLY POLARIZED

VOTING IS THAT ONE HAS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO AS

GUIDANCE, BUT ONLY NEGATIVES=-THAT IS, THAT BOLDEN IS A

NEGATIVE IN THAT THE CONGRESS REACTED SPECIFICALLY I.IHEN

IT ADOPTED SECTION 2 TO THE BOLDEN CASE; THAT TF THE

CONGRESS HAD WANTED TO ABOLISH ALL MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT

IT HAD MORE THAN AN AMPLE OPPORTUNITY IN SECTION 2 TO DO

SO. BUT IT DID NOT DO SO.

THE PLAINTIFFS IN THIS CASE IVOULD APPEAR TO BE

USING AS THE STANDARD THE NUMBER OF BLACKS I./HO COULD BE

ELECTED FROM SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THESE FOUR

CONTESTED COUNTIES. AND YET THAT IS ONLY CONSISTENT

LEGALLY WITH THE POSITION THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

WERE DISALLOWED BY THE. CONGRESS O* THAT THAT OUGHT TO BE

THE STANDARD--THAT CONGRESS COULD NOT SAY THAT IN ORDER

TO DETERMINE THE EXTENT TO },IHICH BLACK VOTERS ARE

EXCLUDED OR WHICH THE PROCESS IS NOT EQUALLY OPEN TO THEM

I NCLUDI NG RESULTS, THAT CONGRESS COULD HAVE SAI D, IIWELL,

WHAT YOU DO IS TAKE A LOOK AT THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA AND

DETERI,IINE HOW MANY SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS YOU CAN FORM.

AND IF THERE ARENIT TFIAT MAI.IY BLACK PEOPLE ELECTED AT

LARGE, THEN THERE MUST BE A VIoLATION OF SECTION 2.n

BUT CONGRESS DIDNIT SAY THAT EITHER. SO THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PROBLEM THAT A WITNESS HAS IN TESTIFYING AS TO WHAT IN

THE EXPERTIS OPII.IION CONSTITUTES SUESTANTIALLY SIGNIFI-

CANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN ELECTIONS IS THAT

THERE IS NOTHING AFFIRMATIVE TO LOOK TO BY WAY OF

DEFINITION. YOU CAT{ ONLY COME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS BY

VIEWING THOSE THINGS WHICH ARENIT UNDER THE CASE LAI^I AND

THE STATUTE VIEVJED TO BE POLARIZED VOTING.

NOI^I, WE APPRECIATE THE POSITION OF THE COUP.T.

IT I./ASNIT THE INTENTION OF THE DEFENDANTS TO HAVE THIS

WITNESS INVADE THE PROVINCE OF THE COURT. BUT VJHEN SOME-

oNE ASKED HIM, "WELL, HOW DO yOU COME TO YOUR CONCLUSION

THAT THE VOTING IS NOT RACIALLY POLARTZED,II IT IS SOME_

WHAT DIFFICULT TO DO SO WITHOUT SOME REFEP.ENCE TO THE

CASE LAW AND TO SECTION 2.

I WANT THE COURT TO KNOW THAT THAT WOULD HAVE

BEEN THE NATURE OF THE TESTIMONY AND THE PROOF. BUT I

WILL GO ON.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: . WE WILL ACCEPT THAT AS AN

DR. HOFELLERI,S OPINIONoFFER OF PROOF 0N THE QUESTIoN OF

AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF POLARIT.ED

BEFORE THE COURT.

VOTING BASED ON THE DATA

BY I"1R. LEOI,IARD:

A DR. HOFELLER, CAN YOU GIVE A D5FINITION OR

EXPLANATION OF I,IHAT YOUR VIEW IS WITH RESPECT TO I/,HEN

POLARIZATION OF VOTING BECOMES SIGNIFICANT TO THE POINT

F P. O. Bor 2aldl
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHERE IT IS THE FACTOR OR A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN THE

DEFEAT OF A BLACK CANDIDATE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE

HISTORY OF SECTION 2 AND THE CASE LAW? WOULD YOU TRY TO

DO THAT, PLEASE?

A I BELIEVE--AND AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES. I DON'T

I^IANT TO OVERSTEP HERE . DR. GROFMAN BE L I EVES THAT THERE

HAS BEEN A VIOLATION. HE BELIEVES THAT--AND HE CALLS

THAT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC

VOT I NG.

I DONIT BELIEVE THERE IS STATISTICALLY SIGNI_

FICANT POLARTZED RACIAL BLOC VOTING BECAUSE I DO NOT

BELIEVE THAT THAT IS THE OVERRIDING CAUSE OF THE

CANDIDATES NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL IN MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS

I ALSO SEE FROM MY EXAMINATION OF THE DATA

THAT THE BLACKS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN TERMS

OF ELECTING BLACKS TO THE STATE LE""LATURE HAVE EN.JOYED

A CONSIDERABLE GAIN AS A RESULT OF THE T982 ELECTION.

THERE ARE MORE BLACKS BY A CONSIDERABLE DEGREE IN THE

STATE LEGISLATURE.

I RE.JECT THE HYPOTHESIS THAT SOMEHOW THIS

ELECTION OF THESE BLACKS IS AN UNUSUAL EVENT, ONE WHICH

HAS ANY DEGREE OF BEING NEGATED IN 1984. IF ONE LOOKS

AGAIN AT THE SUCCESS OF BLACKS WHO HAVE STOOD FOR RE-

ELECTION AS INCUMBENTS, ONE FINDS THAT BLACKS HAVE EN-

LIOYED A HIGH DEGREE OF SUCCESS IN RE-ELECTION. AND

a P. O. eor 2tla
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PREClSION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THEREFORE, I REJECT AGAIN THAT THIS CANNOT OCCUR IN

1984.

I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION DATA IN THE

COUNTIES INVOLVED. I HAVE LOOKED AT THE REGISTRATION OF

THE STATE. AND I FIND THAT BLACKS ARE MAKING SIGNIFICANT

GAINS IN TERMS OF THEIR REGISTRATION IN RELATION TO THE

WHITE REGISTRATIOI.'I; AND THAT THIS INDEED MAY BE THE CAUSE

FOR THE BLACKS BEING MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 182 THAN IN I84.

I BELIEVE THAT I,THEN I LOOK AT THE TOTALITY

OF THE REDISTRICTING PLAN IN PLACE IN NORTH CAROLINA NOW

THAT IT CAN BE SHOWN THAT BLACK SUCCESS HAS IN SOME CASES

BEEN ENHANCED BY THE PRESENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS;

AND THAT THIS ENHANCEMENT CAN BE SHOI{N EVEN TO HAVE

AMOUNTED TO PROPORTIONALITY, EVEN THOUGH PROPORTIONALITY

MAY NOT BE REQUiRED--I CANI:T REALLY SAY WHETHER IT IS; SO

THAT IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE CONNTUTTOru OF BLACK

REGISTRATION TO THE SUCCTSS OF BLACK CANDIDATES--THE

FACT THAT THAT EXISTS--AND JHE PRESENCE OF ALL THE OTHER

DATA DOES NOT LEAD ME--CANNOT LEAD ME--TO A CONCLUSION

THAT THERE IS STATiSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIE

VOTING IN TERMS OF DENYING BLACKS THEIR. RIGHTS.

a Do You HAVE AN OPINION SPECIFICALLY, DR.

HOFELLER, AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SUBSTANTIALLY: SIGNIFICANT

RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING IN NORTH CAROLINA AND IN THE

COUNTIES IN QUESTION WAS THE DECISIVE FACTOR IN THE

F P. O. lor 26las
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 976.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

DEFEAT OF THOSE BLACKS WHO DiD NOT GET ELECTED THAT YOU

LOOKED AT--THE RACES YOU LOOKED AT?

A IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION--WELL, YES. I

HAVE AN OPINION.

a WHAT rS rT?

A MY OPINION IS THAT CERTAINLY IT COULD HAVE

BEEN A FACTOR. BUT I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT IT IS THE

MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTOR OR IT IS THE ONLY FACTOR AND

THAT THAT FACTOR OPERATING IN A VACUUM WAS THE CAUSE OF

THAT. THERE ARE TOO MANY OTHER FACTORS PLAYING UPON

THOSE ELECTIONS THAT COULD BE THE CAUSE OF THOSE CANDI-

DATES NOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

A THERE WAS SOME TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN--WELL,

EXCUSE ME. I THINK IN YOUR LAST ANSWER YOU SAID THAT

BLACKS WERE MORE SUCCESSFUL IN 1982 THAN THEY WERE IN

'84. I AM WONDERING WHETHER OR *O' YOU MISSPOKE WITH

RESPECT TO THE YEARS INVOLVED?

A MY APOLOGY--YES; THAT THEY WERE MORE SUCCESS-

FUL IN I82 THAN THEY WERE IN T80 AND INDEED IN '78.

A THERE WAS SOI4E TESTIMONY BY DR. GROFMAN WITH

RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY IN ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. WHAT IS

YOUR OPINION WITH RESPECT TO CONSISTENCY AS AN ATTRIBUTE

IN THE MAKEUP OF ELECTORAL DISTRICTS?

A AS A STUDENT OF REAPPOINTMENT AND AS AN

OBSERVER OF REAPPORTIONMENT, CONSISTENCY IS USUALLY A

F 2, O. 8or 1,alag
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PIIOENIX, ARIZONA

VERY GOOD SUBSTITUTE FOR GERRYI.4ANDEIIING. IF YOU WAI.IT T

HAVE CONSISTENCY IN ELECTION DISTRICTS, YOU GERRYMANDER

THEI4. AND THEN YOU CAN ENSURE THAT YOU WILL GET A

GUARANTEED RESULT. I THINK THAT IF YOU SUBDIVIDE ANY

DI STRI CT YOU CAN FIND THAT THE DI STRI CT I^/I LL NOT BE

HOMOGENEOUS, HOl^JEVER.

a Do you HAVE AN OPINION AS TO T,JHETHER OR NOT

THE EFFECTS OF PAST DISCRI14INATION IN THIS STATE HAVE

HINDERED OR ARE HINDERING THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO

EFFECTIVELY AND EQUALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL

PROCE SS ?

MS. WINNER: I OBJECT TO BOTH THAT

BEING OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDS OF EXPERTISE AND ALSO IT HAS

NO ADEQUATE FOUNDATION AS TO WHAT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE

PAST DISCRIMINATION IN THIS STATE OR WHAT THE CURRENT

BARRIERS ARE. HE HAS NOT BEEN I; THE COURTROOM THROUGH-

OUT THE TRIAL.

.JUDGE PHI LL I PS : . COUNSEL,

IS THAT THAT OB.JECTION IS WELL TAKEN.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DI D YOU PR,EPARE AN EXHI BIT AS

STUDY THAT YOU DID ON VOTER REGISTRATION

CAROL I NA?

MY DISPOSITION

A RESULT OF A

IN NORTH I

A I DiD.

A I5 THAT A THREE-PAGE EXHIBIT MARKED DEFENDANTS

F t. O. Eor ,rGs
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

EXHIBIT 62?

(Orr,rNoRrurs EXHI BIT No . 62 wAS

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATTON. )

THE FIRST PAGE OF EXHIBIT 62.

EXHIBIT IS THREE PAGES?

A

a

A

a

AND WHAT

A

a

A

TION DATA

OF ONE OF

TR IAL--I

BOARD.

NO. THAT IS

YES. AND THE

IT IS.

WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT EXHIBIT TO THE COURT

YOU PURPORT TO SHOW BY IT?

THE FIRST PAGE?

THE WHOLE EXHIBIT?

THE FIRST PAGE IS AN ABSTRACTION OF REGISTRA-

FOR THE STATE AS A WHOLE WHICH I COMPILED OUT

THE OTHER EXHIBITS WHICH WAS PRESENTED AT THIS

BELIEVE BY SOMEONE FROM THE STATE ELECTION

. AND ALL IT.REALLY SHOWS IS THE AMOUNT OF

WHITES REGISTERED IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE

OF THOSE YEARS AND THE NUMBER OF BLACKS REGISTEP.ED IN THE

NOVEMBER ELECTIONS OF EACH ONE OF THOSE YEARS AND THE

RATIO OF WHITES TO BLACKS.

THE EXHIBIT WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN DRAWING MY

CONCLUSION, IN THAT I FIND IN IB2 A PARTICULARLY LARGE

GAIN IN BLACK REGISTRATION VIS-A-VIS WHITE REGISTRATION:

THE I-OWER THE RATIO CN THE R.IGHX, THE BETTER THE BLACKS

ARE REG I STERED I N ACCORDANCE I..1I TH THE WH I TES .

F P. O. Bor i'tlGll
LJ i.blgh, Nornr Ctrolril 2rttt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND SO IT IS MY FEELING THAT THIS TREND WILL

CONTINUE AND THAT THIS I^/ILL HAVE AN EFFECT UPON THE BLACK

POTENTIAL TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ELECTIONS IN THE DISTRICTS

THAT ARE BEING DISCUSSED.

I WOULD ALSO, INCIDENTALLY, CONCLIJDE FROM THIS

THAT BLACKS EITHER MAY BE HAVING LESS DIFFICULTY REGIS-

TERING; OR THERE t"lIGHT BE SOME OTHER FACTOR AT LARGE Il.,t

THE BODY POLITIC, SUCH AS THE CHANGE IN REGISTRATION

PROCEDURES WHICH I HAVE HEARD ABOUT AND THE ENCOURAGEMENT

OF OTHER POLITICAL GROUPS TO REGISTER BLACKS, WHICH IS

BRINGING MORE AND MORE BLACKS INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS

IN THIS STATE.

A AND YOU HAVE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE MECKLEN-

BURG ELECTIONS. AND I TAKE IT THAT PAGE 2 IS SIMPLY AN

ANALYSI S 'T[]AT AIDED YOU IN YOUR TESTIMONY?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

AND TELL THE COURT WHAT PAGE 3 OR WHAT THE

SIGNIFICANCE OF PAGE 
' 

OF T-HAT EXHIBIT IS.

A PAGE ] LOOKS AT FOUR INDIVIDUAL COUNTIES AND

ONE THREE-COUNTY AREA AND TAKES TURNOUT STATISTICS OFF

THE GROFMAN EXHIBITS FOR THOSE GENERAL AND PRIMARY ELEC-

TIONS IN THE YEARS INDICATED. AND IT TAKES REGISTRATION

DATA OFF OF THE STATE ELECTION BOARDIS EXHIBIT FOR THE

CLOSIl.IG GENERAL ELECTION REGISTRATION.

THIS DOCUMENT AGAIN WAS HELPFUL TO ME IN

F P. O. Eor 2Ar0!
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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

LEAD I NG TO MY CONCLUSIONS, AS I STATED.

AND THAT HELPFULNESS COMES FROI4 THE COLUMN TO

RIGHT, WHICH SHOU/S THAT THE RATIO OF l,/HITES TO

I S DROPPI NG?

THAT IS CORRECT.

a

THE FAR

B LAC KS

A AND THE LOWER RATIO GOES, WHAT DCES THAT MEAN?

A WELL, WHEN THE NUMBER IS LOWER, THE PROPOR,TION

OF T.JHITES TO BLACKS DROPS, WHICH MEANS THAT THE BLACKS

HAVE A STRONGER REPRESENTATION IN THE POTENTIAL ELECTORA

IN TERMS OF REGISTRATION.

MR. LEONARD: WOULD THE COURT GRANT ME

JUST A FEW MINUTES FOR A CAUCUS WITH COUNSEL HERE?

(PAUSE. )

BY MR. LEONARD:

a DR. HOFELLER, DID YOU LoOK AT IN YOUR EXAMINA-

TION THE NASH-EDGECOMBE-WILSON AREA OF THE STATE WITH

RESPECT TO A SINGLE_MEMBER DISTRICT?

A I DID.

DURING THE COURSE OF THAT INVESTIGATION, DID

YOU INVESTIGATE VARIOUS PROPOSALS WITH RESPECT TO CREAT-

ING A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA?

VJHAT I DID ESSENTIALLY WAS IN MY VERY FIRST

WORK FOR THE LEGISLATURE BACK IN 1981, I DETERI'4INED IN

MY JUDGI{ENT THAT THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY OF FORMING A

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT. BEFORE I'4Y INFORMAL DEPOSITION

F P. O. Bor l'tlfi!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN APRIL AND BECAUSE I NOW HAVE MAPS TO GO ALONG WITH

THE DATA, I ATTEMPTED TO DRAW SUCH A DISTRICT AI..ID INDTED

FOUND THAT A DISTP.ICT COULD BE DRAWN I]'.I THAT COUNTY THAT

WOULD HAVE MA\.,OR I TY BLACK POPULAT I ON.

a WHAT IS yoUR OPINION h'rTH P.ESPECT TO SUCH A__

EXCUSE ME. LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE. DID YOU PUT TIIAT

PROPOSED DISTRICT ON A MAP OF SOME KIND?

YHS. I PUT IT ON A MAP.

BUT YOU DONIT HAVE THAT AVAILABLE NOI^,?

I AM SORRY. I DONIT.

a WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID yOU--WHAT pERCENTAGE

BLACK WAS THE DISTRICT THAT YOU DREW?

59.

A WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU I,IAKE WITH RESPECT

TO THE CHARACTERISTICS OF SUCH A DISTRICT IN ORDER TO

GET.AT THAT HIGH A PERCENTAGE SI.ACTZ

WELL, THAT DISTRICT--I MIGHT REITERATE THAT

THERE MAY BE OTHER COMB I NAT I ONS . BUT T!.!,\T D I STR I CT WAS

BASED UPON USING TOWNSHIPS AND NOT BREAKING TOWNSHIPS.

AND IT WAS ALSO A TVJO-COUNTY DISTRICT. AND IN ORDER TO

CRT:ATE A TWO-COUNTY DI STRI CT, I HAD TO MAKE A DI STRI CT

WHICH },/OULD BE I"IOSTLY RURAL AREAS AND THAT WOULD IN EF_

FECT GO AROUND THE PERIPHERY OF NASH AND EDGECOMBE

COUNTIES FROM THE FAR SOUTH CORNER OF EDGECOMBE ALMOST

ALL THE l^rAY AROUND TO THE FAR SIDE OF NASIJ COUNTY.

F P, O. Eor 2tlct
lJ R.blgh. Nonh C.roilil 270il



SO I T WOLILD BE A D I STRI CT WHI CH WOULD--WHOSE

COMMUNITY OF INTEREST WOULD ONLY BE THAT IT I^,AS BL,\CK.

THERE I{OULD BE NO OTHER BAS I S FOR COI4MUN I TY OF I NTEREST.

A WOULD THE CREATION OF SUCH A DISTRICT SUBJECT

YOU TO A VIOLATION OF ANY OF THE PRINCIPLES OF REDIS-

TRICTING?

A I THINK THAT THAT DISTRICT, AS 
"./ELL 

AS

DISTRICT THAT I SEE BEFORE ME, WOULD BE CONSIDERED

ANY REDISTRICTING STUDENT TO BE---

MS. WINNER: (INTERPoSING) I oBJECT

TO WHAT SOME OTHER REDISTRICTING STUDENT IS GOII..IG TO

CONSIDER IT. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HE CONSIDERS IT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU ARE QUALIFIED, DOCTOB

TO GIVE YOUR OWN OPINION AS TO THAT MATTER. AND YOU MAY

GIVE YOUR OPINION AS TO THE CHARACTERISTICS.

THE

BY

, THE V'TI TNESS : ,ar, YouR HoNoR. IN MY

oPINIOI9 THAT WOULD BE A GERRYMAT.,|DER.

BY MR. LEONARD:.

a Do You FrND suppoRT FoR YouR opINIoN WITH

RESPECT TO THAT IN THE LITERATURE AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE AS

RED I STR I CTER ?

a

SHERI FF OF

I DO.

NOl,/, DID YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR THE

WAKE COUNTY--THE ELECTIOI.IS THERE?

I DID.A

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAr P. O. lor 2tlas
LJ R.5eh. l.onh crroilm 270r



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE FROM THOSE ELECTIONS?

A I CONCLUDED ESSENTIALLY THAT A BLACK SHERIFF

RUNNING IN 182 AS AN INCUMBENT WAS ABLE TO GAIN NOMII'IA-

TION AND RE-ELECTION IN A COUNTY THAT WAS PREDOMINANTLY

WHTTE.

A DID THAT AID YOU IN ANY WAY IN YOUR CONCLUSION

WITH RESPECT TO RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?

IT DID.

a WHAT IS YOUR OPINTON Wllb:N YOU LOOKED AT THE

RESULTS OF THAT ELECT I ON IdI TH RESPECT TO YOUR CONCLUS I ON?

A I THI NK THAT THAT ELECT I ON }^/AS PERHAPS MORE

HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE COUNTY INVOLVED THAN IT WAS

ANYWHERE ELSE. BUT IT DID SHOW THAT THERE WERE SITUATI

IN WHICH LARGE NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS--INDEED, SUBSTAN_

TIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS_-WOULD CROSS OVER AND VOTE

FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE.

A I WOULD ASK YOU TO REFER TO WHAT HAS BEEN

DES I GNATED AS DE FENDANTS t EXH I B I TS 63 AND 6I+ AND ASK YOU

TO IDENTIFY THOSE, PLEASE?

(orrrNoRNrs EXHIBIT NOS. 63 AND

6+ WERE MARKED FOR IDENIIFICT.TI

DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT 63 SHOWS A GRAPH OR SCATTER

GRAM, AS YOU MIGHT CLASSIFY IT, OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF

THE PERCENT RECEIVED BY THE CANDIDATE FOR SHERIFF IN I'I,\KE

COUNTY IN RELATION TO THE BLACK REGISTRATION FOR BOTH THE

F P. O. eor 2tl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGI.I, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION.

a I^/HAT DO yOU CONCLUDE FROM THAT EXHI BIT?

A THE SAME CONCLUSTON THAT I DID BEFORE. AND

THAT IS THAT SUBSTANTIAL NUMBERS OF WHITE VOTERS CROSSED

OVER AND VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE, ALLOWING HII'1 TO

I,IIN TIII] ELECTION.

A CAN YOU TELL FROM THAT EXHIBIT WHAT PERCENTAGE

OF THE WHITES VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE?

A NO.

a Do You KNov,, WHAT THAT PERCENTAGE WAS?

A I CAN'T GIVE IT TO YOU RIGHT NOW.

a AND EXHTBIT 64?

A EXHIBIT 64 IS AN INSTANCE IN WINSTON-SALEM IN

THE FIFTH WARD, I BELIEVE, II.,I WHICH A BLACK CANDIDATE WAS

ELECTED IN A WHITE CITY COUNCIL DISTRICT. AND THOSE ARE

GRAPHS wH ICH SHoW, AGAI I!, THE *.iO,IONSHI P BETWEEN THE

WHITE AND BLACK VOTE.-I AM SORRY--BETWEEN THE PERCENT

RECEIVED BY THE BLACK AND THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK

REGISTRATION.

A AND THOSE WERE PREPARED BY YOU IN ORDER TO

SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSIONS?

A THEY VJERE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION_-YES--THAT

I DID IN LOOKING INTO VOTING BEHAVIOR.

A DR. HOFELLER, ONE FINAL QUESTION: DO YOU HAVE

AN OPINION AS TO VJHETHER OR NOT CHAPTER 1 OF THE 1982

A P. O. Box ,taB
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PRECTSION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

SECOND EXTRA SESSIOII OF THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL

ASSEMBLY RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICTING OF THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES AND CHAPTER 2 RELATING TO THE REDISTP.ICT-

ING OF THE SENATE OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA DENY THE

BLACK PEOPLE OF THIS STATE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ELECT

CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE?

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE PH I LL I PS :

THE WITNESS:

BY MR. LEONARD:

I OBJECT.

OVERRULED.

I DO.

WHAT IS THAT OPINION?

MY OPINION IS THAT IT DOES NOT.

MR. LEONARD: THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N L2..05 P.M.

BY MS. I{INNER:

DR. HOFELLER, DRA\^JING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE

EXHIBITS TO WHICH YOU.JUST.TESTIFI-D--THAT IS, EXHIBITS

AND 63 AND 64--THOSE ARE THE ONLY ELECTIONS WHICH YOU HA

TESTIFIED ABOUT WHICH WERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROFMANIS

ANALYSIS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A I LOOKED AT ELECTIONS IN TWO OTHER PLACES

BESIDES THOSE. BUT I HAVEN'T PRESENTED ANY EXHIBITS.

THEY WOULD BE PART OF MY CONCLUSIONS. I AM NOT SURE I---

a (rrurrRposrNG) you DrDN'T TESTIFY--AS FAR AS

a

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YOUR TESTIMONY GOES TODAY, THE ONLY ELECT]ONS THAT YOU

MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY I{HICH I^/ERE NOT BASED ON DR. GROF-

MANI S ANALYSIS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE SHOWN IN EXHIBI'TS

63 AND 64; rs rHAT CoRRECT?

A YES.

a AIJD tlrlW DID YOU HAppEN TO PICK THE WAKE COUNTY

SHERIFFIS RACE AND THE WINSTON_SALEM CITY COUNCIL RACE TO

ANALYZE OUT OF ALL OF THE MANY ELECTIONS THAT HAVE

HAPPENED IN NORTH CAROLINA IN THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE YEAR

A THESE ELECTIOI.IS WERE GIVEN TO ME BY THE

ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AS INSTANCES IN WHICH BLACK

CANDIDATES T',ERE ELECTED IN WHITE MAJORITY DISTRICTS.

A WAS THAT BASED ON A REQUEST BY YOU FOR EXAMPL

OF ELECTIONS IN WHiCH BLACK CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN ELECTED

IN MAJORITY WHITE DISTRICTS?

. A I DONTT RECALL WHETHER IT WAS A DIRECT RE1UEST

OR 1'.IOT. THERE WAS A DI SCUSS I ON I N WH I CH ELECT I ONS TO BE

LOOKED AT WERE DISCUSSED. AND THAT CAME OUT OF THAT

DISCUSSIOI.J.

a AND THOSE 1^/ERE THE ELECTIONS WHICH YOU PER-

CEIVED WOULD BE LIKELY TO SHOW THE LEAST POLARIZED

VOTING--THAT IS, ELECTIONS IN WHICH BLACK CANDIDATES WON

IN A MAJORITY WHITE ELECTION; IS THAT CORRECT?

A I AM NOT SURE THAT I WOULD .JUDGE THE CITY

COUNCIL ELECTIOI..I II'J VJINSTON-SALEM AS NOT HAVING

F P. O. Bor 2alB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

POLARIZATION. AGAIN, I THINK IF YOU CALCULATED THE

CORRELATION ON THAT, YOU WOULD FIND YOU WOULD HAVE A HIGH

DEGREE OF CORRELATION. SO AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF THE

TERMS.

A CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT 64, WHICH

IS THE WINSTON-SALE}4 CITy COUNCIL SCATTERGRAM, DOES THAT

SCATTERGRAM--IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THAT SCATTERGRAM SHOW

RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?

A AS I WOULD DEFiNE RACIALLY POLARIZED VO ING,

AS I PREVIOUSLY DID--YES; IT DOES.

A AND IT DOES IN BOTH THE PRII'IARY AND THE

GENERAL ?

A YES.

a ntoi^t, trF I UNDERSTAND THIS GRAPH--AND I MAy

WELL NOT--THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT ON THE HORIZON-

TAL AXiS YOU HAVE USED. AS THE BASIS OF BLACK REGISTRATI

IS THAT CORRECT?

A THAT IS CORRECT..

A THAT IS THE PERCENT OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS

IN EACH PRECINCT THAT IS BLACK; IS THAT RIGHT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

q AND SO THAT GRAPH DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT

THE POSSIBILITY OF SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT VOTER TURNOUT

BETWEEN WHITES AND BLACKS IN THAT ELECTION; DOES IT?

A NO. IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO

F P. O.8ox 2tla
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TO THE RECORDS OF THE LOCAL ELECTION BOARD AT.ID FIND OUT

WHO THE VOTERS WERE THAT ACTUALLY VOTED--IF, INDEED, THEY

I4IERE KEPT IN THAT.

a AND YOU DIDN' T DO THAT?

A -I DID NOT DO THAT.

a AND SO IN THAT PARTiCULAR ELECTION__DO yOU

KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE REGISTERED VOTERS

IS IN THAT PRECINCT_-IN THAT WARD?

A NO; I DON! T.

a you JUST KNOW THAT IT IS SO|4ETHTNG ABOVE 50

PERCENT WHITE?

A THE PERCENTAGE OF WHAT?

A THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTSRS IS ABOVE

5O PERCENT WHITE?

A YES.

a BUT YOU DON,T KNOW HOW MUCH ABOVE?

A YES. NO; I DON|T KNOW WHAT--YES. I DON'T

KNOW WHAT PERCENT.

A SO IF IT WERE CLOSE TO 50 PERCENT AND THERE

WAS, IN FACT, A HIGHER VOTER TURNOUT AMOI..IG BLACK VOTERS

THAN WHITE VOTERS, IT COULD MEAN THAT FEW, IF ANY, WHITE

VOTERS VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A CERTAINLY.

a AND IN FACT, tf' yOU LOOK AT YOUR GRAPH FOR

THE PRIMARY AND IF I UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ IT, AT THE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX ARIZONA

VERY BOTTOM LITTLE CORNER ON THE LEFT BOTTOM THERE IS

AN rrArr 2

THAT IS CORRECT.

AND DOES THAT MEAN THAT IN A PRECINCT THAT

WAS ABOUT 1 PERCENT BLACK IN REGISTRATION, THE BLACK

CANDIDATE GOT ABOUT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE?

ABOUT ONE FOR TWO; YES.

IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 2 OF THAT EXHIBIT IN THE

LAST TWO COLU|4NS--COLUMN g AND g, THE VERY TOp ROW FIRST

OBSERVATION--DOES THAT NOT INDICATE THAT IN A PRECINCT

THAT HAD 1 PERCENT OF ITS REGISTERED VOTERS BLACK THAT

THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT 1 PERCENT OF THE VOTE?

A IT DOES.

a oKAy. MovING ALONG TO EXHIBIT 63, yOU DID

NOT ANALYZE THE 1978 SHERIFFT S RACE IN WAKE COUI'ITY; DID

YOU?

A NO.

A AND THAT }IAS AN ELECTION VIFERE THE SAME BLACK

CANDIDATE WAS A CANDIDATE? DO YOU KNOW THAT?

A I DONIT KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH OF HIS TERM IS.

SO HE HAD TO HAVE RUN IN THE PRECEDING ELECTION OR HE

WOULDNIT HAVE BEEN AN INCUMBENT. BUT I DONIT KNOVJ.

DO YOU TH I NK THAT SHER I FF RAKER I S I NCUI,IBENCY

TO DO WITH THE NUMBER OF V/HITE VOTES THATHAD ANYTHI NG

HE GOT?

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I WOULD SAY YES. IT PROBABLY DID.

A YOU DID NOT ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF BLACK AND

I^IHITE VOTERS IVHO VOTED FOR SHERIFF BAKER IN THAT ELECTI

DID YOU?

A .NO; I DID NOT.

q AND THIS GRAPH AS WELL AS THE \,IINSTON_SALE}4

GRAPH IGNORES DIFFERENTIAL TURNOUT?

A YES.

A AND IF BLACK TURNOUT WAS HIGHER THAN WHITE

TURNOUT, THEN THE AMOUNT OF OR THE NUMBER OF WHITE VOTERS

WHO VOTED FOR THE BLACK CANDIDATE WOULD BE EXAGGERATED;

IS THAT CORRECT?

(NO RESPONSE. )

a DO YOU WAl.lT ME TO R.EP[:AT T}IAT?

A NO. I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUEST I ON. BUT IT I{OULD

DEPEND ON WHAT YOU TAL.K ABOUT AErr.fe EXAGGERATED. I THINK

THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT IT WAS SIGNIFICANT

TO THE ELECTION. THERE IS ALSO THE CONVERSE OF THAT--THA

THE TURNOUTS COULD HAVE BEEN THE OPPOSITE WAY FROM WHICH

YOU STATED THEM.

A THAT IS RIGHT. AND IN THAT CASE, THE AMOUNT

POLARIZATION OF VOTING WOULD BE UNDERESTIMATED?

A THAT IS RIGHT. THAT POINTS TO THE PROBLEM OF

USING THAT SORT OF DATA AS A }4AJOR TOOL--AS THE I4A.JOR

TOOL, PERHAPS--IN DETERI'lINING SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARIZE

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BLOC VOTING.

A AND YOU CANIT TELL FROM THIS GRAPH WHETHER YOU

HAVE UNDERESTIMATED OR OVERESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF

POLARIZATION BECAUSE OF THE TURNOUT?

A .NO. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THESE ELECTIONS IS

INDEED MORE IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT THERE WAS STATISTI-

CAL POLARTZATION AND THAT A BLACK CANDIDATE I^,ON IN A WHI

DISTRICT.

a so WHAT you coNcLUDED IS ALTHOUGH THERE WAS

STATISTICAL POLARIZATION, NONETHELESS THE BLACK CANDIDATE

WON; IS THAT RIGHT?

A STATISTICAL POLARIZATION; YES.

A NOW, I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE

HIRED BY THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA INITIALLY IN

NOVEMBER--EXCUSE ME_-IN NOVEMBER OF 1981 OR THEREABOUTS?

A YES.

A AND AT THAT TIME YOU MADE A REPORT TO THE

GENERAL ASSEMBLY ABOUT WHERE THERE WERE SUFFICIENT

CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTERS TO CREATE MAJORITY BLACK

DISTRICTS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A MA.JORITY SINGLE-MEMBER BLACK DISTRICTS; YE5.

A MA.JORITY BLACK SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A YES.

A AND ONE OF THOSE PLACES THAT YOU REPORTED THAT

THAT WAS POSSIBLE WAS IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE STATE

F P, O.5or 2tla3
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FOR THE SENATE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THE PERCENTAGE OF THE DISTRICT WHICH YOU

REPORTED COULD BE CREATED WAS 59.4 PERCENT; IS THAT RIGH

A .TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION; YES.

A AND THAT WAS IN THE REPORT?

A I BELIEVE IT WAS. I THINK YOU HAVE A COPY OF

THE REPORT. AND I DONI T.

a YES. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT?

(oocUMENT HANDED UP To wITNESS.)

IS THAT A COPY OF YOUR REPORT TO THE GENERAL

AS SEMB LY ?

A YES.

A LOOKING AT PAGE 6, COULD YOU JUST READ THE

LAST PARAGRAPH?

A 't...159.4 PERCENT SENATE SEAT IS ALSO POSSIBLE

WITH TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS.II

A AND DOES THAT IMPLY THAT OTHERWISE IT CONSISTS

OF WHOLE COUNTIES?

A YES.

a AND THOSE TWO COUNTY FRAGMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN

TOWNSHIPS? YOU DIDNIT WORK WITH ANYTH]NG OTHER THAN

TOWNSHIPS; DID YOU?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A DID YOU ACTUALLY DRAW THAT DISTRICT OUT ON Ao
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MAP ?

A WELL, I HAD TO HAVE DRAWN IT OUT ON A MAP OR

I COULDNIT HAVE ASCERTAINED WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS CON-

TIGUOUS. AGAIN, I DONTT KNOW WHERE THE MAP IS. BUT I AM

SURE THAT I DREW IT ON A MAP. AND IT WAS CONTIGUOUS.

A DID ANYONE EVER ASK YOU TO SEE THAT MAP?

A NO.

A OTHER THAN ME?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A NOW, YOU HAVE TESTIFIED PREVIOUSLY IN THE CASE

r OF KETCHAM V. BURNS IN CHICAGO?

A YES-_IF THAT IS THE CITY COUNCIL.

a YES?

A YES.

a AND THAT WAS IN OCTOBER OF 1982 ROUGHLY?

. A YES.

A YOU WERE AN EXPERT IN THAT CASE?

A YE S; I h,AS

A WAS THE ISSUE IN THAT CASE WHETHER OR NOT

THERE WAS DILUTION OF MINORITY VOTING STRENGTH BECAUSE OF

FRACTURING AND PACKING?

A YOU COULD STYLE IT THAT WAY. YES. THE ISSUE

wAS---

a (trureRPosING) rHar trJAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE

I SSUES ?

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THAT I,/AS ONE OF THE I SSUES. YES.

A DID YOU TESTIFY IN THAT CASE THAT THE TWO

MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA FOR REAPPORTIONMENT WERE EQUALITY

OF POPULATION AND AVOIDANCE OF RACIAL DILUTION?

A .I DID.

A AND DID YOU TESTIFY THAT A RULE OF THUMB FOR A

MINORI'f Y SI-:AT I S GENERALLY STATED AS 6 5 PERCENT OF THE

TOTAL POPULATION?

A YES--WITH THE CAVEAT THAT IT COULD VARY CON-

S IDERABLY IN INDIVIDUAL CASES AI.ID THAT YOU HAD TO LOOK AT

THEM.

A BUT YOU STARTED WITH 65 PERCENT? AND THEN YOU

TOOK INDIVIDUAL CIRCUMSTANCES INTO ACCOUNT TO RAISE OR

LOWER THAT AMOUNT?

A THAT IS RIGHT. DID YOU SAY 65 PERCENT OF

TOTAL POPULATION?

a YES?

A YES. THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND THE REASON THAT THAT IS GREATER THAN 50

PERCENT OR SOME OF THE REASONS THAT IT IS GREATER THAN 50

PERCENT IS BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE LOWER VOTING AGE POPULA-

TION OR POSSIBLE LOWER REGISTRATION OR POSSIBLE LOWER

TURNOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

a AND IN THAT CASE--II.I LIGHT OF TH,qT, YOU

P. O. eor 2alB
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

TESTIFIED THAT A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WAS NOT A VIABLE

BLACK WARD?

I AI4 NOT SURE THAT I TESTIFiED TO THAT. MY

OPINION WOULD BE PROBABLY THAT I WOULD HAVE SAID THAT IF

ASKED THAT. QUESTION_-YES--PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF

CH I CAGO.

A AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH

A 58 PERCENT BLACK WARD WOULD NOT BE A VIABLE BLACK WARD?

A YES-_ALTHOUGH I MIGHT ADD THERE ARE ALSO

SITUATIONS IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO WHERE BLACKS HAVE WON

IN WARDS CONSIDERABLY LESS. IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH

MACHINE POLITICS IN THAT CITY.

A AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER

IF HISPANIC WARDS WERE OVER 60 PERCENT HISPANIC; IS THAT

RIGHT?

A AT LEAST.

q Do You KNOW WHAT THE VOTER REGISTRATION IS FOR

THE CURRENT SENATE DISTRICI NUMBER 2 IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A NO. I AM SORRY. I DONIT.

A b,OULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO

CONSIDER IN DETERI'III'IING WHETHER OR NOT SENATE DISTRICT

NUMBER 2 AS CURRENTLY DRAWN IS A VIABLE BLACK DISTRICT?

A

a

A

CERTAI NLY.

CAN YOU GIVE A DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE?

WITH RELATION TO---

F P. O. Eor 2ll.(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O. gor 2116
L, R.t.toh. Nodh cr.oln. 27olI

a (trurenposING) l,rINoRITy vorING STRENGTH?

A WITH RELATION TO MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS?

a YES?

A SUBMERGENCE WITH RELATION TO MULTI-MEMBER

DISTFIICTS.TAKES PLACE WHEN THERE IS A MINORITY POPULATION

WHICH IS SUFFICIENTLY CONCENTRATED SUCH THAT A DISTRICT

CAN BE DRAWN TO INCLUDE THAT POPULATION_-A REASONABLE

DISTRICT--IN WHICH THAT MINORITY WOULD CONSTITUTE A

MAJOR I TY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE TOTAL OF ALL THE

I'lINORITY INHABITANTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT DO NOT

CONSTITUTE A MA.JORITY OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTIS

POPULAT I ON.

A AND WHEN YOU SAY A REASONABLE DISTRICT COULD

BE DRAUIN, DO YOU MEAN ONE THAT IS INTACT AND CONTIGUOUS?

A REASONABLY.:O. REASONABLY SO.

A USING THAT DEFINITION--I THINK THAT YOU

TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVE EXAMII.,IED THE CONCENTRATION OF

MINORITY VOTERS IN MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM

AND WAKE COUNTIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHER COUNTIES IN THE STAT

ALSO.

A BUT YOU HAVE EXAI.4I NED I T I N BOTH COUNT I ES ?

A YES.

A USING THAT CRITERION, DO YOU CONSIDER THERE T



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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BE SUBM=RGENCE I N THE MECKLENBURG COUI{TY HOIJSE DI STR I CT)

A THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT?

A YES--IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY? WOULD YOU LIKE

ME TO PUT THE MAP UP?

A I WAS .JUST GOING TO GET THE DI STRICT NUMBERS_-

DI STRI CT 36?

a YES?

A YE S . THE ANSWER I S YES-- I N ACCORDANCE I,,I TH

THAT DEFINITION; YES.

A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE

MECKLENBURG-CABARRUS SENATE DISTRICT, WHICH IS SENATE

DISTRICT NUMBER 22?

A YES.

A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE

DURHAM COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT--I CANIT RECALL THE NUMBEP.?

A 23; YES.

A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I

THE WAKE COUNTY HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 2I?

A YES.

A AND DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE I

THE FORSYTH COUNTY HOUSE DiSTRICT NUMBER 39?

A YES.

A DO YOU CONSIDER THERE TO BE SUBMERGENCE IN THE

I,II LSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH HOUSE DI STRICT NUMBER 8?

A YES.

A P, O. 8or 2tl(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THERE WERE SOME

EXAMPLES IN TI.IIS APPORTIONMENT PLAT! IN WHICH I.lULTI_MEMBER

DISTRICTS HAVE ENHANCED THE ABILITY OF BLACK PEOPLE TO

GET ELECTED? IS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED--THAT THE CREA-

TION OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS HAD ENHANCED?

A YES.

A WAS ONE OF YOUR EXAMPLES OF THAT IN CUMBERLAND

COUNTY ?

A FAYETTEVILLE?

a YES?

A YES.

a Do you KNow How CUMBERLAND COUNTY WAS AppOR-

TIONED IN 1970?

A NO.

A SO WHEN YOU SAID THAT THE ABILITY WAS ENHANCE

IT WAS NOT AS COI4PARED TO HOW IT USED TO BE?

A WHAT I MEANT BY THAT WAS THAT THE CREATION OF

THE MULTI-MEMBER SEATS--MORE STRONGLY PERHAPS IN ROBESON

COUNTY THAN IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY--AIDS THE BLACKS IN

TERMS OF GETTING THEIR CANDIDATE ELECTED.

A IN CUMBERLAND COUNTY THE MULTI-MEMBER SEAT

THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, I BELIEVE, HAS TWO MEMBERS;

I S THAT CORP.ECT ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND IT IS.JUST A PORTION OF CUMBERLAND COUNTY:

A P. O. 601 2ErGt
lJ F.brsh, r6il C.,oflil 27aI



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THAT IS RIGHT. I BELIEVE IT CONTAINS UNDER

5O PERCENT BLACK POPULATION.

A DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE

REGISTERED VOTERS IN THAT DISTRICT IS THAT ARE BLACK?

A . I THINK IT MIGHT INDEED BE OVER 50 PERCENT.

THERE IS A GREAT AMOUNT OF MILITARY POPULATION IN THAT

DISTRICT.

a AND ISN| T IT, IN FACT, OVER g0 PERCENT OF THE

REGISTERED VOTERS THAT ARE BLACK IN THAT DISTRICT?

A I CANIT SPEAK FOR THAT, BECAUSE I SAID I

DI DN I T KNOI/, EXACTLY WHAT THE REGI STRAT ION WAS.

A IF THE PERCENTAGE OF REGISTERED VOTERS IN

THAT DISTRICT WERE OVER 8O PERCENT BLACK, WOULD YOU THINK

IT WAS A GOOD GENERALIZATION FROM THE RESULTS iN THAT

DISTRICT TO A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN WHICH THE REGIS-

TERED VOTERS WERE UNDER 5O PENCTT.TT OF THE POPULATION--OF

THE REGISTERED VOTERS?

A NO; CERTAINLY NOJ.

a Now, TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO ROBESON, SCOT-

LAND AND HOKE COUNTY---

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ROBESON.

MS. WINNER: i AM SORRY--ROBESON,

SCOTLAND AND HOKE. I, CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND

.JUDGE BRITT OP. JUDGE MCMILLAN.

.JUDGE PHI LLIPS: I AM FROM SCOTLAND.

F P. O. Bor 2tld
LJ R.bleh, t{o(n C.roln. 276rt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

M5. WINNER: I I^/I LL BE ESPECIALLY

CAREFUL ABOUT MY PRONUNCIATION.

BY MS. WINNER:

a TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ROBESON, SCOT_

LAND AND HOKE DISTRICT, YOU SAID THAT THE CREATION OF A

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT IN THAT AREA ENHANCED THE ABILITIES

OF BLACK PEOPLE TO GET ELECTED, IS THAT RIGHT?

A I AI,1 NOT SURE THAT I SAi D THE CREATI ON-_CER_

TAINLY THE EXISTENCE OF.

A SO YOU WERE NOT COMPARING IT TO WHAT HAPPENED

IN THAT DISTRICT IN THE SEVENTIES?

I AM NOT ENTIRELY CERTAIN THAT THE DISTRICT

MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE SEVENTIES AS

IT WAS IN THE EIGHTIES. THE POINT I WOULD MAKE HERE IS

THAT IF THAT DISTRICT WERE TO BE SUBDIVIDED INTO THREE

Il'IDIVIDUAL DISTRICTST. I AM NOT 9URE IT COULD BE ASCER-

TAINED THAT THE BLACKS WOULD HAVE A MA,JORITY DISTRICT

THERE. AND THEY MIGHT INDEED BE ABLE TO BE USING THEIR

VOTE TO GREATER ADVANTAGE IN THIS SITUATION IN THAT

MULTI -MEMBER DI STRiCT.

A BUT UNDER YOUR DEFINITION OF SUBMERGENCE, YOU

ARE NOT SURE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SUBMERGENCE IN THAT

DISTRICT; IS THAT CORRECT?

A

THERE I S.

I AM NOT SURE. I I^/OULD RATHER DOUBT THAT

F P. O.8ox 2al6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A ARE YOU AWARE OF WIIAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE

POPULATION OF THAT DISTRICT IS THAT IS INDIAN?

A I BELIEVE IT IS SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD

oF--LET'S SEE--J0, l0-40. SO THERE IS A LARGE INDIAN AND

BLACK POPU.LATION AND THEN THE BLACK POPULATION, WHICH IS

LARGER. BUT NEITHER ONE OF THE POPULATIONS IS A I'{AJORITY

IN THAT DISTRICT.

a Do you KNow oF ANy oTHER MULTI-MEI4BER DISTRI

IN NORTH CAROLINA IN I^,HICH THERE IS NO ETHNIC GROUP THAT

HAS A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION?

NO.

A DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN GENERALIZE FROM THE

EFFECTS OF THAT MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT ON BLACK ELECTION

TO THE EFFECT OF MULTI-MEMBER DI STRICTS IN WI-{ICH THERE IS

SUBMERGENCE AND IN WHICH THERE IS A CLEAR WHITE MAJORITY

POPULATION?

A I AM SORRY. SAY THAT AGAIN, WOULD YOU?

A DOES THE EXISTENCE OF A SUBSTANTIAL INDIAN

POPULATION IN THAT DISTRICT MAKE THAT DISTRICT DIFFERENT

FROM OTHER MULTI_MEMBER DISTRICTS IN NORTH CAROLINA?

A YES.

A WOULD THAT DI FFERENCE BE ONE THAT YOU THOUGHT

IT WAS IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER IN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS

FROM THAT DISTRICT?

I THINK THAT THE ONLY GENERALIZATION THAT YOU

F P. O. Bor 2ltB
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PRECISION REPORT]NG
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

COULD MAKE FROM THAT DISTRICT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT

THE REDISTRICTING PLAN AS A WtlOLE AND YOU LOOK AT THE

EXISTENCE OF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THAT REDISTRICTING

PLAN THAT THAT IS A CASE IN WHICH THE BLACK VOTERS MAY

HAVE AN ADVANTAGE; AND THAT IF MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS ARE

EVIL PER SE, THAT PERHAPS THOSE COUNTIES ALSO OUGHT TO

BE OR PARTICULARLY THAT GROUP OF COUNTIES OUGHT TO BE

SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTED ALONG WITH THE OTHERS.

JUDGE PHI LL I PS : LET ' S TAKE A ONE-HOUR

RECESS FOR LUNCH.

(rur pRocEEDING wAS REcESSED AT t2:30 p.M., To

RECONVENE AT 1:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.)

F P. O. lor 2trc3
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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 1:]O P.

(wnrneuPoN,

THOMAS BROOKS HOFELLER

THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF RECESS, RESUMED

THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:)

CROSS-EXAMINATION
(RESUMED)

BY MS. WINNER:

A DR. HOFELLER, HAVE YOU ANALYZED THE ELECTIONS

IN MECKLENBURG, FORSYTH AND DURHAM AND WAKE COUNTIES TO

DETERMINE }.'HETHER BLACK VOTERS S INGLE_SHOT VOTE MORE THAN

tlH I TE VOTER S DO ?

A YES.

a IN YOUR OPINION, DO BLACK VOTERS HAVE TO

SINGLE-SHOT VOTE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO ELECT BLACK

CANDIDATES IN THOSE COUNTiES?

A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN SAY CONCLUSIVELY IN

EVERY INSTANCE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SINGLE SHOT.

BUT I THINK AS A GENERAL RULE THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES.

a Now, DRAI^/ING YOUR ATTENTION TO DEFENDANTS T

EXHIBIT NUMBER 62, THE RATIO THAT YOU GIVE THERE IS

SIMPLY A RATIO OF THE WHITE REGISTRATION DiVIDED BY THE

BLACK REGISTRATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAa P. O. Box zEtdl
lJ R.hloh, xodh c!'oln. 276t1



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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a rT DoES NOT COMPARE-*YOU DrD NOT COMPARE THE

NUI.IBER OF REG I STERED VOTERS TO THE VOT I NG AGE POPULAT I ON;

DID YOU?

A NOT IN THIS EXHIBIT.

a .TH rs EXH IBrT DOES NOT SHOW THAT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A SO THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF RATIO DEPENDS AS MUCH

ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATION IS BLACK

A5 IT DOES ON WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTING AGE

POPULATION IS REGISTERED; DOESNIT IT?

A THE RATIO--THE RESULTANT RATIO OF WHITE TO

BLACK REGISTRATION WOULD DEPEND UPON THE PERCENTAGE OF

ADULT AGE POPULATION AVAILABLE AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH

THE BLACKS AND THE WHITES REGISTER TO VOTE.

A BUT THIS DOESNIT SHOW THE COMPARISON OF THE

PROPORTION OF THE BLAC]< VOTING AGE POPULATION WHICH IS

REGISTERED TO VOTE TO THE PROPORTION OF THE WHITE VOTING

AGE POPULATION THAT IS REGISTERED TO VOTE; DOES IT?

A THAT IS CORRECT. IT DOESNIT.

A ALL RIGHT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: AND NO ONE ASSUMES THAT

I T DOES.

MS. WINNER:

TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

ALL RIGHT. I .JUST WANTED

BY MS. WINNER:

F P. O. Bor 2tr.ll
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PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]|
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a AND LOOKING AT 19B2__THE DTFFERENCE BETWEEN

198O AND I9B2--AT LEAST PART OF THE REASON THAT THAT

RATIO I,JENT DOI^/N IS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF WHITE REGISTERED

VOTERS WENT DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT?

A THAT I S CORRECT. BUT I N tgl4 THE NUMBER I^/ENT

DOWN. AND THE RATIO WENT UP. SO ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY

HERE iS THAT IN A YEAR SUCH AS 174, t7g OR tgz THERE WAS

PERHAPS SOME DROP IN REGISTERED VOTERS DUE TO NON-VOTING

IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THE RATIO CHARACTERISTI-

CALLY WENT THE OTHER WAY FOR THE BLACKS. AND NOW WE SEE

THE INFLUX OF NEW BLACK REGISTRATION BUCKING THE TREND

THERE.

A THESE STAT I ST I CS WERE TAKEN FROI..I THE OCTOBER

REGISTRATION FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS?

A THE GENERAL ELECTION; YES.

A THAT I.JOULD. HAVE BEEN OCTOBER IN THOSE YEARS?

A OCTOBER.

A DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, PURGES

I^JERE DONE AFTER THE PRES I DENT IAL ELECT I ONS, NOT BEFORE

THEM?

A TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY ARE DONE

AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. THAT IS WHY YOU WOULD

WANT TO TAKE THEM AT THE SAME TIME EACH ELECTION.

A ALL R IGHT. NOtr^I, YOU TESTI FIED ABOUT THE

UNRELIABILITY OF AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS DONE ALONE; IS

F P. O. gor 26lal
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9O85

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THAT CORRECT ?

A I BELIEVE THAT I TESTI

CASE ANALYSIS MAY NOT BE PROPERLY

THE REST OF THE CASES BEHAVE.

A BUT PROFESSOR GROFMAN

EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS, BUT ALSO A

THAT CORRECT?

FIED THAT THE EXTREME

I ND I CAT I VE OF THE I^,AY

RELIED NOT ONLY ON

REGRESSION ANALYSIS; IS

A THAT IS CORRECT. AND I BELIEVE I STATED THAT.

A AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS

DONE IN CONLJUNCTION WITH AN EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS CAN

PROVI DE A CHECI< ON THE RESULTS?

A I DON'T THINK THAT IT COULD NECESSARILY PRO-

VIDE THE DEFINITIVE CHECK ON THE RESULTS. I THINK CER-

TAINLY ONE WOULD WANT TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT SOME OF THE

ACTUAL CASES IN THE MIDDLE AND CHECK THEM BACK AGAINST

THE REGRESSION TO SEE.,IF THE REG;ESSiON WAS BEHAViNG

PROPERLY.

A BUT IT CERTAINLY IS A WAY TO ALERT YOURSELF IF

THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS? IT IS ONE WAY OF ALERTING YOUR_

SELF AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE

REGRESSiON ANALYSIS-_IS TO ALSO DO AN EXTREME CASE

AI.IALYSI S?

A ONE OF THE WAYS TO--YES; .JUST AS ONE OF THE

WAYS TO DETERMINE THERE MIGHT BE PROBLEMS WITH REGRESSION

ANALYSIS IS TO LOOK AT THE EXTREME CASE.

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P. O.8or 2tla

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a

A

A CHECK ON

ANALYS I S,

BOTH WAYS ?

BUT THERE HAS TO BE__THERE WOULD PROPERLY BE

THE GREAT MIDDLE RANGE OF THE REGRESSION

WHICH YOU DONIT GET FROM THE EXTREME CASE.

a

I T CORRECT

REGRESS ION

POINTS IN

IN LOOKIt,lc AT PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S RESULTS, IS

THAT THE EXTREME CASE ANALYSIS AND THE

ANALYSIS CORRESPOND WITHIN A FEW PERCENTAGE

A

CLOS ELY.

ALMOST ALL OF THE CASES?

IN MANY OF THE CASES THEY DO CONFORM RATHER

IN MOST OF THE CASES?

YES.

A NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID

NOT HAVE ANY TURNOUT DATA OR TURNOUT ESTIMATE; IS THAT

WHAT YOU SAID?

A NO. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE

SEEN FIGURES ON THE NUMBER OF BLACKS AND THE NUMBER OF

WHITES WHO TURNED OUT. CERTAINLY I KNOI.I THAT HE HAD

DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN TURNOUT IN THOSE PRIMARY

ELECTIONS AND GENERAL TURNOUT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION,

IS THERE ANY WAY TO DETERMINE THE EXACT NUMBER

OF BLACKS AND WHITES VJHO VOTED IN EACH ELECTION IN EACH

PRECINCT WITHOUT GOING AND COUNTING THE REGISTRATION

CARDS ?

NOT THAT I KNOW OF.

F P. O. Bor 2tla
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]l
PHOENIX, ARIZOT.IA

A IN THE POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURE, IS IT

STANDARD FOR POLITICAL SCIENTISTS TO COUNT REGISTRATION

CARDS TO DETERMINE BLACK AND WHITE TURNOUT?

A I AM NOT SURE THAT IT HAS EVER BEEN DONE. BUT

THAT DOESNIT MEAN THAT IT ISNIT A VALiD WAY TO OPERATE.

I KNOW THAT IN TERMS OF ANALYZiNG POLITICAL DATA FOR

VOTE ANALYSIS FOR TRYING TO WIN ELECTIONS AND DETERMINE

ELECTIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES T{HEN PEOPLE HAVE GONE

TO THE VOTER REGiSTRATION FORMS AND AFFIDAVITS. SO IT

CERTAINLY ISNIT BEYOND THE REALM OF THINGS YOU COULD DO.

A BUT IT IS UNUSUAL?

A IF YOU WERE.JUST DEALING IN AN ACADEMIC

SiTUATION PROBABLY YOU WOULDNIT GO TO THE TROUBLE OF

GETTING THAT DATA.

A AND THE REASON IS THAT IT IS EXTREMELY TIME_

CONSUI'4ING TO DO THAT__AND TEDIOUS?

A AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF HOW EXTREME YOU THINK

IT IS.

a But IT woulD BE A MATTER oF GoING THRouGH

CARD BY CARD?

A YES; DEFINITELY.

A AND DETERMINING WHETHER EVERYBODY VOTED AND

I.JHAT RACE THEY WERE?

A YES.

A HAVE YOU EVER DONE THAT IN ANY ANALYSIS THAT

a P, O. Box 2l1m
Ll Frbroh, Nonh C.rofln. 270r r



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YOU DID?

A NO--NOT FOR THIS KIND OF A STUDY. AGAIN, I

HAVE DONE IT IN TERMS OF POLITICAL ANALYSIS--PRACTICAL

POLITICS DEALING WITH REAL ELECTIONS. YES.

a BUT yOU HAVE NOT DONE IT FOR THIS KIND OF

STUDY ?

.. A I T DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU CHARACTERI ZE AS ''TH I S

KIND OF STUDY.II

A ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE METHOD THAT DR.

GROFMAN USED FOR ESTIMATING TURNOUT?

A NO. I CANIT SAY THAT I REALLY AM.

A DID YOU READ THAT PORTION OF PLAINTIFFSI

EXHIBIT 12 WHICH EXPLAINS HOW HE ESTIMATED TURNIOUT?

A NO.

a so you CAN,T sAy WHETHER oR NOT THAT METHOD--

YOU CANTT SAY WHETHER OR NOT THA; METHOD HAS FLAWS IN IT?

A HAS WHAT?

a FLAWS ? -

A I AM SORRY. I DONIT UNDERSTAND YOUR WORDS.

JUDGE BR I TT:

THE WITI'JESS:

BY MS. I,/ I NNER :

FLAWS-_F-L-A_W_S.

OH, FLAI^,S . I AM SORRY.

A IF YOU DID NOT READ THE METHOD THAT HE USED

FOR DETERMINING TURI.IOUT AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR I,IITH TT, YO

CANNOT SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT HAS ANY FLAWS IN IT; CAN YOU

a P. O. Bor 28rs
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36],9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN SAY ABOUT THE

REGRESSION ANALYSIS IS THAT IT PRODUCES MATHEMATICAL

RESULTS WHICH DO NOT MATCH REALITY. NOW, I,JHETHER HE HAS

A FLAW IN HIS METHODOLOGY OF ESTIMATING TURNOUT, I DONIT

KNOW. BUT HE HASNIT PROVEN THAT THERE ISNIT A FLAW.

a oKAy. AND yOU BASE THAT ON EXHIBTTS 16(E) AND

(F)?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THOSE TWO EXHIBITS ARE

JUST SIMPLY A MISTAKE?

A IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS POSSIBLE THERE ARE

OTHER MISTAKES IN THE EXHIBITS, TOO.

A AND CERTAINLY THERE MIGHT BE SOME MISTAKES IN

ANY ANALYSiS OF THIS MAGNITUDE--SOME MISTAKES?

A THERE MAY BE A NUMBER OF MISTAKES, INCLUDING

MISTAKES IN METHODOLO.GY.

a BUT YOU DONIT KNOW OF ANY MISTAKES iN THE

METHODOLOGY AS TO ESTIMATING TURNOUT; DO YOU?

.JUDGE PHI LLi PS : HE HAS ANSWERED THAT.

BY MS. WINNER:

a ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNoW OF ANY OR DO YOU

RECALL ANY OF PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S ANALYSIS WITH REGARD T

DURHAM COUNTY WHICH DEPENDED ON HIS TURNOUT ESTIMATE AS

INDICATED IN EXHI BITS (E) AND (F)?

A MY RECOL LECT I ON I,/AS THAT I N H I S DURHAM ANALYSI

F P, O. Box 26tS
LJ R.btgh, No(h c..orr.. 2761I



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PREClSION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZCNA

HE WAS PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT,

PARTICULARLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, IF YOU HAVE THREE

BLACKS--I AM SORRY-_THREE CANDIDATES RUNNING AND YOU HAVE

ONE OF THEM h'HO IS A BLACK AND THEY ARE THE ONLY MAJOR

PARTY CANDIDATES, THAT IT REALLY DOESNIT MATTER WHAT THE

ANALYSIS IS. THEY ARE GOING TO GET ELECTED.

SO HE IS DEPENDING VERY HEAVILY, I THINK, IN

DURHAM COUNTY ON THE NATURE OF THE COUNTY ITSELF.

AND NONE OF THAT ANALYSIS DEPENDED ON THE TURN

OUT IN DURHAM COUNTY; DID IT?

I I.,OULD ASSUME THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO USE TURN-

OUT AS SOME FACTOR IN DETERMINING PROPERLY WHETHER OR NOT

I'IAKING A PREDICTION ABOUT FUTURE ELECTION OUTCOMES IN

DURHAM COUNTY. I WOULD HAVE TO READ HIS ENTIRE TESTIMONY

TO MAKE SURE THAT HE DIDNIT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

a so You .JUST. DONi T nrrqEmarR WHETHER OR NOT HIS

TESTIMONY WAS BASED ON THIS TURNOUT PART OF 16(E) NNO (T

I WOULD HAVE TO.SAY I DONIT REMEMBER.

A NOW, DO YOU AGREE THAT A STANDARD METHODOLOGY

POLITICAL SCIENCE FOR DETERMINING VOTING POLARIZATION

TO LOOK AT COP.RELAT I ONS ?

YES.

IN

IS

A AND THAT

STEPS THAT SHOULD BE

WHETHER OR NOT THERE

THAT WOULD BE AT LEAST ONE OF THE

PER FORl.4ED I N ORDER TO DETERM I NE

IS SUBSTANTIAL SIGNIFICANT POLARIZE

F P. O. Bor 2al$
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

VOTING?

A YES.

a t'/out_D you AGREE THAT ALL OF THE CORRLATIONS

THAT DR. GROFMAN ARRIVED AT OR FOUND IN HIS STUDIES WERE

STATISTI CA!-LY S IGNI FI CANT?

A I THINK I ALREADY STATED THAT THEY WERE STA-

T iSTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.

A ALL OF THEM?

A HE GAVE THE SIGNIFICANCE FACTOR OF THEI4. IT

WAS .OOOO1, WHICH }JAS THE BEST THAT THE PRINTOUT COULD

S HOW.

A AND YoU AGREE THAT THAT IS STATISTIcALLY

SIGNIFICANT?

A I AGREE THAT HIS CORRELATION BETWEEN THOSE

TI^IO VARIABLES IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.

a h/ITH REGARD TO YOUR 
'=rrIMONy 

ABOUT POSITION

oN THE BALLOT, COULD you LOOK AT EXHIBIT 14(D)?

A I WILL TRY AND F.IND IT HERE.

MS. WINNER: AT THIS POINT, TO RELATE

BACK TO THE PREVIOUS TESTIMONY, IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING

THAT DEFENDANTS WILL STIPULATE THAT, IN FACT, IN MECKLEN-

BURG COUNTY IN THE PRIMARY THE CANDiDATES ARE NOT ROTATED

ON THE BALLOT.

MR. LEONARD: rTIT STIPULATION IS THAT

IN THE PRIMARIES THEY ARE NOT; BUT IN THE GENERAL

F P. O. Bor 2814
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZG{AP. O. Bor 2tl8
LJ R.bloh. Nodh c.,orn. :Ior r

ELECTION THEY ARE. THAT IS, THEY ARE LISTED ALPHA_

BETICALLY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION AND THE PRIMARY.

MS. WINNER:

STIPULATION__-

AS I UNDERSTOOD THE

.JUDGE pHILLIpS: (trurrnpOSING) Wrll, IF

COUNSEL ARE NOT PREPARED TO STIPULATE, LETIS DONTT HAVE

THE ---

MS. WINNER:

I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD AGREED.

(TNTTRpoSING) I AM SoRRY

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IF YOU CAN WORK OUT A

STIPULATION, PUT IT IN WRITING. AND WE WILL TAKE IT.

MS. tr,J I NNER :

BY MS. WINNER:

I APOLOG I ZE.

a LooKING AT DEFENDANTS' EXHTBIT 14(D), yOU HAVE

TESTIF]ED THAT RICHARDSON?S PLACE ON THE BALLOT COULD

HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE LOST; IS THAT CORRECN

A YES. THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND HE IS CANDIDATE NUMBER 8?

A YES.

A IS IT CORRECT THAT THE PERSON NEXT TO RICHARD-

SON--THAT IS, CANDIDATE NUMBER 7-_CAME IN THIRD IN THAT

ELECTION?

A YES.

A AND THAT THE CANDIDATE NEXT TO THAT PERSON,

CANDIDATE NUMBER 6, CAME IN SECOND IN THE ELECTION?



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A

a

A

a

I AI-4 NOT SURE THAT HE DIDNI T COME IN FIRST

HE CAME IN FIRST IN THE ELECTION?

YES.

AND THAT WAY OVER ON THE OTHER PAGE, CA].,IDIDATE

NUMBER 15--WHO I BEt.IEVE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVENTH

REPUBLICAN--GOT 3,000 MORE VOTES THAN MR. RICHARDSON GOT?

A YES. I THINK YOU HAVE TO NOTE, THOUGH, OF

COURSE, THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE ON A DIFFERENT

ROW IN THE BALLOT. AND I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO RECALL

THAT MY TESTIMONY IS THAT THE BALLOT POSITION HAS AN

EFFECT ON THE VOTES RECEIVED. I DIDNIT SAY IT WAS GOING

TO BE TOTALLY DETERMINANT.

OBVIOUSLY IF IT WERE, THE TOP ALPHABETICAL

CANDIDATE WOULD ALWAYS WIN EVERY ELECTiON.

A AT LEAST IN THIS ELECTION, WHILE MR. RICHARD-

SON WAS IN EIGHTH PLACE, THE CANDIDATE WHO WAS NUMBER 7

IN BOTH THE DEMOCRATIC ROW AND THE REPUBLICAN ROW DID

SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER THAN HE DID?

A THAT I S R I GHT. BUT I I\,OULD SAY THAT .3 OF

1 PERCENT OF VOTE DIFFERENCE COULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY

POSITION ON BALLOT JUST AS WELL AS ANY OTHER FACTOR. IT

COULD HAVE BEEN THAT IF CANDIDATE NUMBER 7 WERE HIGHER ON

THE BALLOT, HE MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN MORE VOTES.

a Notr,, LOOKING AT PLAINTIFFS t EXHIBIT 14(D),

I BEL I EVE YOU ALSO TE ST I F I ED THAT RI C}IARDSON I S SUPPORToE

P. O. 8ot 2tl$
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AMOI.JG BLACK VOTERS COULD EXPLA I N THE RESULTS OF THAT

ELECTION; IS TI]AT P.IGHT?

THAT IS RIGHT.

AND THE DIFFERENCE IN THE SUPPORT BETI^/EEN

BLACK VOTERS FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON IS THE DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN 92 PERCENT AND B8 PERCENT; IS THAT CORRECT?

ACCORDING TO DR. GROFMAI'IIS REGRESSION--YES.

AND THAT WAS WHAT YOU I^'ERE RELYING ON iN MAK

THAT ASSUMPTION?

FI ELD.

NO.

IT WAS NOT?

I LOOKED AT THE VOTES-_THE ACTUAL VOTES IN THE

a cAN YOU COMPARE WHAT PROPORTION OF THE WHITE

VOTERS VOTED FOR BERRY AND RICHARDSON BY DR. GROFMANIS

ANALYSIS?

A CERTAINLY. I AM SORRY. DO YOU WANT ME---

a (lrureRposrNG) I^toulD You sAY WHAT THosE ARE?

A YES. 42 PERCENIT, ACCORDING TO HIS REGRESSION,

VOTED FOR BERRY. AND 29 PERCENT VOTED FOR RICHARDSON.

A WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH VOTE DIFFERENTIAL TO

ACCOUNT FOR THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION?

A I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE CONSIDERABLY MORE.

A AND IN FACT, I F YOU COMPARE THE VOTES THAT

RICHARDSON GOT FROM WHITE VOTERS TO THE VOTES OF ANY

A

^ P. O. 8or 28163
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX ARIZONA

OTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, IN EVERY CASE THAT WOULD BE

ENOUGH VOTES TO ACCOUNT FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN THE

ELECT I ON ?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A WOULD YOU AGREE THAT ANOTHER FACTOR IN

DETERMINING ELECTION OUTCOME WOULD BE ACCESS TO FINANCIAL

SUPPORT ?

A YES.

a ALL RIGHT. NOW, MOVING ON TO EXHIBITS 1l(K),

(M) AND (o) VIHICH YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT PREVIOUSLY WITH

REGARD TO MR. POLK, WOULD YOU CONTRAST THE PERCENTAGE OF

BLACK VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR MR. POLK TO THE PERCENTAGE OF

WHITE VOTERS VIHO VOTED FOR POLK IN EACH OF THOSE COUNTIESi

A l^IHICH ESTI|'4ATE DO YOU I,IANT ME TO USE?

A THE REGRESSiON ESTIMATE?

A IN CABARRUS, IT IS 94/37.

A 94 BEING THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK VOTERS?

A 94 BLACK, 37 WHI.TE. IN MECKLENBURG, IT IS

94 AGAIN AND 1I WHITE. AND IN THE COMBiNED-_THE ACTUAL

DISTRICT--IT IS 94/33.

a ALL RIGHT. DiD YOU LOOK AT ANY--I BELIEVE

THE POINT THAT YOU I^/ERE MAKING WAS THE HE GOT A HIGHER

PERCENTAGE OF THE WHITE VOTE IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTYi IS THAT RIGHT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

P. O. 601 28t&
lJ Frblgh. Nodh C.iotn. 2701t



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A DID YOU LOOK AT ANY OF THE OTHER FOUR SENATE

RACES THAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN DID THAT INCLUDED BOTH

CABARRUS AND MECKLENBURG COUNTIES?

A NOT IN REGARD TO THAT POINT.

A DID YOU LOOK AT THE PRIMARY IN THAT ELECTION?

A I LOOKED AT IT. YES.

. A DID YOU COMPARE THE I'JUMBER OF WHiTE VOTES THAT

POLK GOT IN THE PRIMARY IN EACH OF THE COUNTIES?

A NO.

A ISNIT IT IN FACT TRUE THAT OF THE FIVE ANALY-

SES THAT CONTAIN THOSE TWO COUNTIES, YOU HAVE POINTED OUT

THE ONLY ONE IN WHICH THE BLACK CANDIDATE GOT MORE VOTES

IN CABARRUS COUNTY THAN IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A IF I SAID THAT I HAVENIT LOOKED AT IT FOR THAT

POINT, I CAN'T AGREE WITH yOU 0N THE OTHER POINT.

A I^'OULD YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS RACIALLY POLARIZE

VOTING IN THE GENE*O' 

.EL"TION 
IN THE MECKLEI'IBURG COUNTY

FOR THE SENATE IN L9B2?

A POLARIZED VOTING?

a YES?

A YES.

A IN EACH OF THE ELECTIONS CONTAINED IN EXHIBITS

73 THROUGH 18, IVERE THERE ANY THAT DID NOT HAVE RACiALLY

POLAR I ZF-D VOT i NG ?

A I DO NOT RECALL SEEING ONE.

F P, O. Bor 2816
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457 |

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a Now, AS

DEFINITION OF BLOC

I S THAT CORRECT?

I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU HAVE A DIFFEREN

VOTING THAN RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING;

YES.

A IS THAT DEFINITION OF BLOC VOTiNG DIFFERENT

THAN PROFESSOR GROFMAN'S DEFINITION OF SUBSTANTIAL AND

SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARTZED VOTING?

A I THINK THAT HE USES THE TERM GENERALLY THE

SAME. HOW HE DETERI'lINES WHAT BECOMES STATISTICALLY

SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING MAY BE DIFFERENT

THAN MINE.

A AND IN YOUR METHOD, YOU SAY THAT YOU MUST LOOK

AT THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES TO KNOW VIHETHER OR

NOT IT IS RACIAL BLOC VOTING; IS THAT RIGHT?

WHETHER IT IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT.

SUBSTANT IVELY S I GN T TT CNT'ITI

A SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT. I AM TRYING TO

DIFFERENTIATE HERE BETWEEN .THE PRESENCE OF STATISTICALLY

SIGNIFiCANT pOLARTZATION--I.E., A HIGH CORRELTION COEF-

FIC]ENT__AND',,^/HETHER OR NOT THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIGNI-

FICANT TO THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE IN THOSE RACES.

AND YOU S I I4PLY D I SAGREE Wi TH DR. GROFMAN ABOUT

HOW TO DETERMINE THAT?

THAT IS RIGHT.

NOtr/, YOU MADE A PREDI CT I ON ABOUT 19 8 4 AND

A

a

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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH REGARD TO THE

ELECTION OF BLACK CANDIDATES TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1984;

IS THAT RIGHT?

I THINK WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THERE WAS NOT

ENOUGH DATA TO SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT DR. GROFMAN

HAD DRAWN. THERE IS ALSO SOME DATA WHICH COULD INDICATE

THAT THE REGI STRATION TREND l.IILL CONTINUE AND THAT ONE

COULD EXPECT, BASED UPON PAST RESULTS, THAT THE INCUMBEN

RUNNING FOR ELECTION I/OULD BE ABLE TO BE RE-ELECTT:D.

AND DOES YOUR EXPECTATION ABOUT 198'+ DEPEND ON

THOSE INCUMBENTS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN ELECTED SEEKING

RE-ELECTION?

NOT COMPLETELY; NO.

TT DEPENDS IN PART ON THAT?

A IT DEPENIDS IN PART ON THAT AND TO A MAJOR PART

ON THE FACT THAT IT HAS HAPPENED_-THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE

BEEN ELECTED, THAT THAT PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN PRESENT

I N THOSE DI STR I CTS.

o\

t982, S

DO YOU EXPECT TURNOUT TO INCREASE IN 1984 FRO

iNCE THAT WILI. BE A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR?

YE S.

A IS IT GENERALLY TRUE THAT iT IS NOT SAFE TO

PREDICT FROM VOTER BEHAVIOR IN NON-PRESIDENTIAL YEARS TO

VOTER BEHAVIOR IN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS?

I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH YEARS I

F P. O. 8ox 26lA
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

ORDER TO MAKE A PREDICTION. I THINK THAT YOU COULD NOT

SAY, 'I I AI4 GO I NG TO I GNORE EVERYTH I NG THAT HAPPENED I N

I B2--THE PoLITICS oF NoRTH cARoLINA IN '82, THE REGIS-

TRATION SHIFTS IN '82. AND I AM GOING TO SAY WHATEVER

HAPPENED IN'BO IS WHAT I AM GOING TO USE AS THE BASIS

OF I8I+.tI SO I CANIT REALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT

PREM I SE.

a BUT yOU ALSO CAN'T JUST USE t82 TO PREDTCT

'84, SINCE ONE IS A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND ONE IS A NON-

PRESIDENTIAL YEAR?

THAT IS CORRECT.

WERE THERE ANY ELECTIONS IN WHICH YOU FOUND

SUBSTANTIVELY SIGNIFICANT RACIAL POLARTZATION?

I THINK THAT LOOKING AT THE ELECTIONS INDIVI-

DUALLY, PERHAPS ONE COULD SAY YES. THERE WERE SOME

S ITUATIONS

A DO YOU RECALL WHICH ONES THEY WERE?

A I WOULD SAY THAT^ THE ELECTION IN DISTRICT 8

HAD A HIGH DEGREE OF POLARIZATION. AND IT MiGHT BE,

INDEED, A MARGINAL CASE.

A YOU DID NOT CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION OF THE

TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN ANY OF THESE PLACES;

DID YOU?

A SOI.IE OF THE FACTORS \^/HICH I MENTIONED AS BEING

NECESSARY TO PROVE OR TO FORM AN OPINIION OF SUBSTANTIALLY

P. O. Bor 28153
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SIGNIFICANT RACIALLY POLARI

TO OSTAIN. AND I F ONE I{AS

ON THAT, ONE WOULD I,/ANT TO

NOT LOOK AT THEM ALL.

A .AND IN FACT, WHEN I

WEEK AND A HALF AGO, YOU SAID

ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE VOTER

THAT RIGHT?

THAT IS CORRECT.

A AND SO WHATEVER YOU

YOU HAVE COLLECTED THAT DATA IN

ZED VOTING ARE VERY DI

INDEED TRYING TO PROVE

LOOK AT THEI"I ALL. AND

FFICUL

A CASE

I DID

TOOK YOUR DEPOSITION A

THAT YOU HADN I T LOOKED AT

RETURNS AT THAT TIMEi ISNIT

HAVE BASED YOUR OPINION ON

THE LAST TEN DAYS?

THAT I S CORRECT.

YOU DIDNIT GO TO ANY OF THOSE COUNTIES DURING

THAT TIME; DID YOU?

GO TO ANY OF THE COUI.ITIES?

YES?

NO.

AND YOU HAVE NOT.BEEN SITTING iN THE COURTROOM

FOR T!-{E DURAT I ON OF THE TR I AL; HAVE YOU ?

NOT THE ENTIRE DURATiON; NO.

NOW, YOU TESTIFIED SOMETHII.IG ABOUT CONSISTENCY

MEANING PRODUCING GERRYMANDERING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT

WHAT PROFESSOR GROFMAN MEANT BY CONS I STENCY \^IAS THAT I F

ALL OF THE PARTS OF AN ELECTION DISTRICT RANK THE SAME

CAND I DATE F I RST, THAT THAT CAND I DATE I'lUST 1^/ I N ?

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 875.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAP. O 8ox 2Etd!

lJ n.hrgh, Nonn Ctrorh. 276I



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832-9085

779.3619 876.457 1

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2818
Ll R.blgh, Nonh Coor,n. 2761r

SOMEBODY WINS

WILL WIN THE

THAT PREMISE.

CANNOT QUIBBLE I"JITH THE PREMISE THAT I F

T N EVERY PREC I NCT IN THE D I STR I CT, THEY

RACE. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN QUIBBLE WITH

a .HoI^/ DoES THE NOTION THAT IF SOMEBODY WINS IN

ALL OF THE PARTS THEY WILL WIN IN THE TOTALITY EQUATE TO

GERRYMANDERI NG?

A ONE OF THE GOALS OF GERRYMANDERING IS TO FORE-

STALL COMPETITION. AND ONE OF THE WAYS YOU CREATE NON-

COMPETITION IN GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS IS TO PUT AS MANY

PEOPLE OF THE SAII1E TYPE-_THE MINoRITY WHICH YoU ARE

.TRYiNG TO SUPPRESS BY THE GERRYMANDER--INTO ONE DISTRICT.

AND THAT DISTRICT WILL BE VERY CONSISTENT.

a

ANOTHER ?

DO YOU MEAN CONSISTENT FROM ONE ELECTION TO

IT VJOULD MORE LIKELY BE MORE CONSISTENT IN-

TERNALLY WITHIN ITS PARTS. AND iT V/OULD BE CERTAINLY

MORE CONSISTENT FROM ELECTION TO ELECTION. THE WHOLE

IDEA IS TO GAIN A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY AND TO KEEP IT.

a Now, you sAy you DREW AN ELECTION FOR WILSON-

EDGECOMBE-NASH--A MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICT FOR THE WILSON-

EDGECOMBE_NASH HOUSE DISTRICT?

THAT I S CORRECT.

a AND THAT t^lAS NOT--THE

THE ONLY h/AY TO DRAW A MAJORITY

WAY YOU DREI{ IT VIAS NOT

BLACK HOUSE DISTRICT IN



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THAT AREA; V/AS I T ?

NO.

A I I{AS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE SHAT]E OF THE

DISTRICT THAT YOU DREIV. DID Y'OU SAY THAT IT WAS SIMILAR

TO THE SHA-PE OF THE CURRENT HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29?

CAN YOU SEE HOUSE DISTRICT NUMBER 29?

NO. I AM SORRY.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO APPROACH THE MAP?

DO YOI.' i,lEANI Ii{ OIJiLF'ORD COUNTY?

.\ i'l i) ,,; :

I COIJLD SIlOI{'.'0U, i

a

WAS THAT I T

: ;. Ciiul-:)

l i ..i'l i r/i:: TC .

NO. THAT I5 A.LL ilJCHT. YOUR PROBLEM WITH IT

SKIRTED AROUND THE EDGE OF THE COUNTIES?

IT I'IOULD SORT OF LIKE BE A PAIR OF PINCERS

COMING DOWIJ FROI.4 THE TOP ONTO THE COUNTY. I THINK THAT

IS A GOOD GRAPHIC ILLUSTRATIOT'l OF IT.

BUT TI{ERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT IT MIGHT BE

MY EXPERIENCE WITH REDiSTRICTING IS THERE

DO

ARE

ALWAY S OTHER I',AYS _.ALWAY S .

A AND YOU ARE NOT SAYING THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO

GERRYMANDER iN THAT DISTRICT TO PUT IN A MAJORiTY BLACK

DISTRICT; AP.E YOU?

A i HAVE NOT YET SEEN A DISTRICT I/HICH i WOULD

CLASSIFY AS UNGERRYMANDERED THAT WOULD FULFILL YOUR

PRECISIOhI BEPORTING
AND THANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF 2. O. gor 2alg3

tJ Breroh, No.h Jiforrn. 4761t



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REQUIREMENT IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE

ILLUSTRATIVE DISTRICT THAT YOU SHOW ON

GOES iNTO THREE DIFFERENT COUNTIES AND

THE MAJOR CITIES IN THE THREE COUNTIES

DETERMINED. TO BE A GERRYMANDER.

BLACK. THE

THIS MAP WHICH

SEPARATES TWO OF

I THINK COULD BE

:.iELi- , i-,; I 1'H[ ;tECORD SHO],,

q l'lAS DIt?,:lCTEl-) TO THE DISTRI

EXHiBIT NUI,IBER B---

( I NrrRpos r NG ) (A) .

(A).

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

NOW, PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT---

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DID THE RECORD SHOW THE

EXHIBIT TO WHICH THAT LAST STATEMENT WAS DIRECTED?

MS. ii I l.ll'!t-i? :

NUMtsE P. B (A) .

i BELIEVE IT IS EXHIBIT

rHAT

SHOWN

a

YOU EVER

A

a

THE

ON

WiTt.lESS t i..,\i.i .-,i.lii"ll

GINGLES PLAINTI I:FS I

MS . I^J I NNER :

.JUDGEI,PHILLIPS:

BY MS. WINNER:

PRIOR TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT IN THIS CASE, HAVE

DONE AN ANALYSIS OF RACIALLY POLARIZED VOTING?

NO.

DID YOU HAVE ANY PRIOR EXPERIENCE IN ANALYZIN

RACIAL DILUTIONS IN A MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICT SITUATION?

ONLY AS iT WOULD PERTAIN TO THE POSSIBILITY O

MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IN THE STATE OF MISSTSSIPPI.

A AND IN MISSISSIPPI THE ISSUE I,IITH MULTI-}4EMBE

DISTRICTS WAS A ONE-PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE; WASNIT IT?

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRA}JSCSIBING, INC.

lF P. O Bor 28ta
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PBECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. lor 2tta3

u R.a.lsh, |iod C.roril irltt

A NOT REALLY; NOT REALLY. IT WASN'T A ONE-

PERSON ONE-VOTE ISSUE. THE COURT IN MY RECOLLECTION TOLD

THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI TO DECIDE THE CASE ON ONE-MAN

ONE_VOTE. BUT MISSISSIPPI HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE

RATHER THAN A ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE ISSUE.

A YOUR PARTICIPATI.ON IN THAT CASE DID NOT INVOL

AN ANALYSIS OF THE RACIAL DILUTION IN THE MULTI-MEMBER

DISTRICTS IN MISSISSIPPI; DID IT?

A NO. MY PARTICIPATION IN MISSISSIPPI INVOLVED

THE DRAWING OF DISTRICTS WHICH WOULD NOT DISCRI}4INATE

AGAINST BLACKS AND WHICH WOULD SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS

OF SECTION 5.

a I AM GOING TO ASK yOU TO READ A PORTION OF

THE DEPOSITION WHICH I TOOK OF YOU THE OTHER DAY. MAY I

APPROACH THE WITNESS?

YES..JUDGE PHILLIPS:

BY MS. WINNER:

a START WrTH LINE -20

PAGE ].6=STARTING WITH LINE 20

LINE 6 ON PAGE 16?

AND GO ON TO LINE 6 ON

AND PAGE 15 AND GOING TO

7II--AS YOU WERE

ION OF MY PRIOR

EXPERIENCEII--I AM

OKAY

'I...SKIPPING ON TO NUMBER

GOING THROUGH YOUR SUMMAT

TEST IMONY--''THE ONLY REAL

SORRY.



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IISKIPPING TO NUMBER 7; IS THAT TRUE?I' THAT I,/AS YOUR

QUESTION. MY ANSI^/ER WAS:

tI...THE ONLY REAL EXPERIENCE THAT I HAVE HAD

I.JITH MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS WAS IN MISSISSIPPI

IN TRYING TO EVALUATE THE ONE-MAN ONE-VOTE

RAMIFICATIONS OF THOSE DISTRICTS, WHICH I5 NOT

AN ISSUE IN THIS"--I.E., THiS CASE HERE.

I'. ..QUESTION: YOUR EXPERIENCE IN MISSISSIPPI

DID NOT CONCERN RACIAL DILUTION WITH REGARD TO

MULTI.MEMBER DISTRICTS? ANSWER: EXcEPT To

THE EXTENT THAT RACIAL DILUTION WAS AT ISSUE

IN A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT.

QUESTION: BUT IT WASNIT A CONSIDERATIoN

OF THE DILUTING EFFECT OF MULTI_MEMBER

DISTRICTS? ANSI^IER: THAT IS CORRECT.II

THANK YOU. NOW, YOU HAD DONE SOME ANALYSIS

OF ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA PRIOR TO YOUR DEPOSITION

A I^,EEK AND A HALF AGO; HADNIT YOU?

YE S.

A AND AT THAT

THAT RACE \.'AS A FACTOR

HAD LOOKED AT; I S THAT

YES.

a AND DO YOU ALSO AGREE

BLACK VOTERS GENERALLY INCREASES

TIME, I BELIEVE YOU HAD DETERMiNED

IN A NUI,IBER OF THE ELECTIONS YOU

CORRECT ?

THAT THE TURNOUT OF

WHEN THERE ARE BLACK

A P. O.8ox 2tl(]
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CANDIDATES IN THE ELECTION?

A I AM NOT SURE THAT I CAN MAKE THAT STATEMENT

DEFINITIVELY. MY OPINION WOULD BE THAT THE LIKELIHOOD

WOULD BE THAT IT WOULD. YES.

MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUESTIONS.

R, E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I o N 2:10 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A DR. HOFELLER, qID YOU ATTEMPT TO ANALYZE ANY

OTHER GROFMAN EXHIBITS WITH RESPECT TO THEIR MATHEMATICAL

ACCURACY ?

A NO.

MR. LEONARD: OTHER THAN SOME EXHIBITS,

IF THE COURT PLEASE, I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

E X A.M I N A T I O N 2:10 P.M.

BY .JUDGE PHILLIPS:

a DocToR, LET ME ASK A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS.

DID i UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERE ASKED BY THE LEGISLATURE

iIN CONNECTION WITH ITS LAST REDISTRICTING EFFORT TO

IDENTIFY THOSE CONCENTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTER POPULATIONS

IN THE STATE WHICH WOULD PERMIT THE CREATION OF SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICTS THAT WOULD PASS MUSTER ON THE ONE-MAN

ONE-VOTE REQUIREMENT?

PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF l. O. ior rltGl
lJ Rraagar. ,aodh Crroth. ,i il



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.A571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

YOUR HONOR, THE SpECIFIC ADt,tONITION HERE WAS

TO LOOK THROUGH ALL OF THE COUNTIES IN THE STATE IN

PARTICULAR AND TO FIND OUT WHERE THERE WERE CONCENTRATI

OF BLACK RESIDENTS--RESIDENTS, NOT VOTERS--IN TERMS OF

THE COUNTIES AS A WHOLE. AND THAT BROUGHT OUT WHERE THE

CONCENTRATIONS WERE ON COUNTYWIDE BASIS, I{HICH IDENTIFIED

THE NORTHEAST.

THEN ALSO I WAS TO LOOK AT THE LARGE METROPOLI

TAN COUNTIES AND TRY AND IDENTIFY IF THERE WERE SUFFICIE

NUMBERS OF BLACK RESIDENTS WHERE ONE WOULD SUSPECT THAT

TH.ERE WAS A POSSIBLE CONCENTRATION OUT OF WHICH YOU COULD

MAKE A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT.

I DIDNIT HAVE CENSUS TRACT MAPS AT THE TIME.

SO I COULDNIT SAY WHETHER THEY WERE ADJACENT. BUT AS A

BASIS OF THAT, I DID INDEED REPORT THAT THERE WERE

CoNCET.ITRATIONS IN CERTAIN AREAS, BOTH NON-COVERED AND

COVERED COUNTIES.

A I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT.IN CONNECTION WITH

THAT ENDEAVOR YOU PREPARED A MAP THAT IDENTIFIED THE

LOCATION OF THOSE CONCENTRATIONS?

A NO, YOUR HONOR. I .JUST NARROWED IT DOI'JN TO

CITIES WITHIN THE METROPOLITAN AREAS. I SAID WITHIN,

FOR INSTANCE, THE CITY OF DURHAM, THE CITY OF WINSTON-

SALEM, MECKLENBURG, THOSE CONCENTRATIONS ARE THERE. AND

THERE ARE ENOUGH BLACKS IN THE CITY AS OPPOSED TO THE

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2. O. Eor 2al6

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PREC]SION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIIONA

BLACK RESIDENTS THAT MAY BE DISPERSED THROUGHOUT THE

RURAL AREAS. THE ONLY SPECIFIC DISTRiCT THAT I ACTUALLY

SAT DOWN AND DREW II,AS IN THE RURAL NORTHEAST. THAT WAS

THE ONLY WAY I COULD DETERMINE IF THE PIECES COULD BE

PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY.

BUT I CAME AWAY FROM THAT STUDY CONVINCED

THAT IN CERTAIN METROPOLITAN COUNTIES THERE WAS THE

POSSIBILITY TO CREATE SOME DISTRICTS.

A WHAT ABOUT THE MAP THAT YOU DREW IN CONNECTIO

WITH HOUSE DISTRiCT 8 IN WILSON-EDGECOMBE-NASH? WAS THA

I N CONNECT I ON I'IITH THAT ?

A NO. THAT WAS AT A LATER TIME. THAT WAS

SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.

a WHAT WAS THAT IN RESPONSE TO?

A THAT WAS REALLY IN RESPONSE TO MY WANTING TO

KNOW WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES WERE THERE.

A DID ANYBODY IN THE LEGISLATURE KNOW THAT

YOU HAD DONE THAT? -^

A I CANIT SAY. WELL, I HAD DONE THAT DISTRICT-

THE NORTHEAST DISTRICT. I CANIT SPECIFICALLY TESTIFY

WHO MAY HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LEGISLATURE.

A WERE YOU PRESENT DURING DR. GROFMANIS TESTI-

MONY IN WHICH POTENTIAL SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS COMPAR-

ABLE TO THAT SHOWN ON THE GINGLES EXHIBIT 8(A), VIHICH IS

BEFORE US, WERE TALKED ABOUT IN CONNECTION WITH

F P. O. lor 2816:t
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457]'

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

MECKLENBURG AND FORSYTH AND DURHAM .AND 
WAKE?

YES.

a DID yOU GET A LOOK AT THE OUTLINE OF THOSE

POTENTIAL DISTRICTS?

YES. YES; I DID.

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO THE GERRYMANDER_

ING EFFECT THAT MIGHT APPEAR IN THOSE THAT YOU TESTIFIED

TO IN CONNECTION WITH THE NASH-WILSON-EDGECOMBE?

A I THINK THAT CERTAINLY IN MANY OF THOSE DIS-

TRICTS--AND YOU KIND OF HAV.E TO TAKE THEM ONE BY ONE--

REASONABLE PEOPLE OR I WOULD SAY THAT SOME OF THEM HAVE

VERY STRANGE SHAPES AND COULD BE GERRYMANDERS. I THINK

THAT SOME OF THEM, IN FACT, END UP BEING DILUTED BECAUSE

oF PACKING IN SOME OF THOSE COUNTIES, TOO. BUT I THINK

THAT AS LONG---

a (trurrnposING) you HAVEN'T REALLY ADDRESSED

THEM, THOUGH, TO FORM A SPECIFIC OPINION OF THE KIND THAT

YOU GAVE HERE IN CONNECTION }JITH THE NASH-WILSON-

EDGE COMBE ?

I \^touLDNrT SAY THAT, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD SAy

THAT I F I WERE TO DRAW SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS I.IITHIN

THOSE COUNTIES, I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY DRAW THEM THAT

WAY. I THINK THERE WOULD BE BETTER WAYS TO DRAW THEM.

SO YOU DONIT KNOW BUT WHAT THERE MAY BE I,IAYS

OTHER, THAN THE WAYS DEPICTED WITHIN THOSE RED LINES IN

f-t p. O. &i iuGt
L-l i.l.loll Xor$ Crrolln arltt



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PRECISION BEPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIiONA

THOSE COUNTIES THAT MIGHT AVOID ANY GERRYMANDERING

PROBLEMS ?

A IN SOME OF THEM; YES. I THINK IN MECKLENBURG

IN PARTICULAR ONE WOULD HAVE TO DRAW VERYIIWEIRDLY SHAPED

DISTRICTS TO INCLUDE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THE BLACK

POPULATION. I THINK IN THE OTHER THREE COUNTIES THAT

DISTRICTS COULD BE DRAI''N THAT I'/OULD BE ACCEPTABLE IN

TERMS OF GERRYMANDERING.

.,UDGE PHILLTPS: THANK YOU.

MR. LEOIJARD:

QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

I JUST HAVE ONE OTHER

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2|L5 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A WHO ACTUALLY RETAINED YOU, DR. HOFELLER?

. A YOU DID.

A AND THE REPORT T.HAT YOU I^,ERE SHOwN EARLIER BY

COUNSEL AND THE MAPS THAT YOU PREPARED--WHO DID YOU GIVE

THOSE TO AFTER THEY WERE COMPLETED?

A TO YOU.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING?

MS. WINNER: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUESTIONS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.

(l/{ITNESS EXCUSED. )

F P, O, &r 2tt(t
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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIIONA

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE,

WE HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS BEFORE }\lE REST THAT WE

ARE ABOUT TO.PRAY TOO, IF I MIGHT TAKE THOSE UP. YOU

WI LL RECALL THAT WHEN DR. WATSON WAS ON THE STAND THERE

WAS THE QUESTION OF DEFENDANTSI EXHIBIT 53, WHICH WAS A

PAPER THAT HE HAD PREPARED.

I ALLUDED TO THE BIBLIOGRAPHY. AND I AM

INFORMED THAT THAT WAS NOT OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE. I

WOULD OFFER IT SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE COURT CON-

SIDERING THE FOOTNOTES, WHICH ARE THE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF

THE STUDY THAT HE DID THAT RELATES--AT LEAST, IN MY

OPINION--TO THE SOURCES AND DATA OF HIS RESEARCH AND THUS

HIS OPINION. I DO NOT OFFER IT FOR THE PURPOSE OF

ANYTHING WITH RESPECT TO THE REPORT ITSELF.

MS. WINNER: T HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO

THE PAPER BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE. I DO OB.JECT TO THE

FOOTNOTES BEING PUT IN EVIDENCE OUT OF CONTEXT FROM WHAT

THEY ARE A FOOTNOTE TO.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE HAVE THE TESTI-

MONY OF TI.IE GOOD DOCTOR IN THE RECORD. WE LISTENED TO

IT. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WE ARE SIMPLY BEING GIVEN

THIS AS A PART OF THE RECORD TO AID US IN }4AKING A.JUDG-

MENT ABOUT THE WEIGHT THAT WE OUGHT TO ACCORD THE TESTI-

MONY HE GAVE.

MS. WINNER: I WANT THE WHOLE DOCUMEN

F t. O.8or 2tla!
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN THE RECORD, NOT JUST THE FOOTNOTES.

MR. LEONARD: I OFFER THE WHOLE DOCU-

MENT.

THE WHOLE DOCUMENT I5 ADMITTED AS DEI=ENDANTS ' EXHI BIT---

MR. LEONARD: (rrurrnPosrNG) 53.

JUDGE PIIILLIPS: 53.

(oenrruoarurs EXHIBIT No. 53 wAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONARD: IF THE COURT PLEASE, wE

HAVE HAD I,IARKED DEFENDANTS I EXHIBIT 26, WHICH T,'AS THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH CAROLINA PLAN OF ORGANIZATION.

I BELIEVE COUNSEL WILL STIPULATE TO THE ADMISSION OF THAT

DOC UMENT.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: NO OB.JECTION?

MS. WTNNER: NO OBJECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT

O BJ ECT I ON.

(OrNrruORrurs ExHIBIT No. 26 WAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONARD: AND 27 IS A SIMILAR

DOCUMENT RELATING TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF NORTH

CAROLINA.

MS. WINNER:

26, 27 OR 28.

I HAVE NO OB.JECTION TO

F P. O. Bor 2tt{It
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARiZONA

MR. LEONARD: I OFFER 28.

L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: WITHOUT oBJECTIoN,

DEFENDANTSI EXHIBITS 27 AND 28 ARE ADMITTED.

(orrrmoarurs EXHIBIT NoS. 27 AND

28 WERE RECI: I VED I N rVt orruCe . )

MR. LEONARD: AND DE FENDANTS I EXH I t] I T

46 SHOWS THE MEMBERS oF THE DEMoCRATIC PARTY EXECUTIVE

COMMITTEES IN MECKLENBURG, WAKE, DURHAM, NASH AND

EDGECOMBE COUNTIES.

MS. WINNER:

MINUTE TO FIND THEM?

COULD YOU GIVE ME .JUST A

JUDGE BRITT:

THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER.

YOU SAY NO OB.JECTION IN

MS. WINNER: TTIEN I GUESS I DONIT HA

I WOULD THINK SO.

ONE.

.J UDGE BR I TT :

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT

OBJECTION.

(orrrNaNrs EXHIBIT NO. 46 wAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

MR. LEONARD: AND 47 IS A LETTER FROM

KAY GADDIS, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT AT THE DEMOCRATIT

PARTY HEADQUARTERS HERE IN RALEIGH RELATIVE TO THE NUMBE

OF BLACKS WHO SERVED ON THE STATE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE.

I4S. WINNER: I THINK I HAVE AGREED TO

F t. O. lor 2tl6
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571
PHOFIJ!\, ARIZONA

NOT OBJECTING TO IT.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT

OBJ ECT I ON.

MR. LEONARD:

(oenrNoarurs EXHrBrr No. 47 wAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

AND DURING THE COURSE OF

DR. HOFELLERIS TESTIMONY WE IDENTIFIED EXHIBIT 62, WHICH

WAS THE VOTER REGISTRATION ANALYSIS. I WOULD OFFER THAT

INTO EVIDENCE.

MS. WINNER: NO OBJECTION.

. \,UDGE.PHILLIPS: THAT IS ADMITTED WITHoUT

OB.J ECT I ON. .

(oereNoRurs EXHIBIT No. 62 wAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONARD: 6] I'JAS A DoT GRAPH THAT

HE TESTIFIED FROM

MS. WINNER: I HAVE No oBJECTIoN To

63 0R 54.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: BoTH 63 AND 64 ARE

ADMITTED WI THOUT OBJECTION.-

(oerrruoaruts EXHTBIT Nos. 6, AN

6I+ wERE REcEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONARD: DURING THE COURSE OF-.THE

RECORD DOESN'T SHOW.THAT DURING THE COURSE OF MR.

FERRELLIS TESTIMONY THAT EXHIBIT 50 WAS AN EDITORIAL FRO

F P. O, 8ox ,ilGS
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, ]NC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A RALEIGH NEWSPAPER WITH RESPECT TO THAT. THE COURT

ADMITTED IT. BUT THE RECORD DOESN'T SHOW THAT.

MS. WINNER: YOU HAVE ALREADY RULED

ON IT. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO RENEW MY OBLJECTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, IS THE oBJECTIoN

IN THE RECORD?

MS. WINNER: YES, SIR.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL SOMEONE REFRESH MY

RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT WE ADMITTED AND SHOULD NOT HAVE?

MS. WINNER: IT I,IAS AN EDITORIAL OF

THE NEWS AND OBSERVER CRITICIZING SENATOR SPEED FOR NOT

TAKING CARE OF THE LAKE FOREST ANNEXATION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: I BELIEVE WE WILL RISK

LEAVING THAT IN THE RECORD.

MR. LEONARD:

(DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT No. 5O wAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

AND EXHIBIT 51 WAS .JOE

FERRELLIS CURRICULUM VITA,.WHICH APPARENTLY EITHER I

NEGLECTED TO OFFER OR IT WASNIT RECEIVED.

MS. wrNNER, i HAVE No oBJECTIoN.

\,UDGE PH I LL I PS : THAT I S ADMI TTED WI THOUT

OBJECTION.

(DEFENDANTS ExHIBIT NO. 51 WAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE CoURT PLEASE

F 2, O. lor 2alG!
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WE WOULD LIKE TO OFFER INTO EVIDENCE THE DEPOSITION OF

REPRESENTATIVE CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER. WE GAVE YOU A HINT

THAT THAT ISSUE MIGHT COME ABOUT. CHARLIE GRADY HOUSER

IS A BLACK MEMBER OF THE HOUSE.

MS. WINNER:

MR. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

MR. LEONARD:

WE WERE GOING TO HAVE-..

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

WnRruele ovER THrs. r HAD

CARE FULLY.

MS. WTNNER:

JUDGE PHI LLI PS :

WITHOUT OBJECTION.

I.,IR. LEONARD :

sTAND IT, DOES NOT OBrEa' TO

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM DONALD

M5. WINNER:

JUDGE PHILLIPS:

OB.JECT I ON.

WE DO NOT OBJECT.

oH, YOU DON ' T.

YOU CAN ADMIT IT.

I AM SORRY. I THOUGHT

I WAS PREPARED FOR A REA

STUDIED THE MATTER VERY

I APOLOGIZE.

WELL, IT IS ADMITTED

AND COUNSEL, AS I UNDER-

THE ADMISSION OF THE ENTIRE

MILLS--THE MILLS DEPOSITION.

YES. THAT IS CORRECT.

IT IS ADMITTED WITHOUT

IF THE COURT WOULD .JUST

GOT A FEW PAPERS HERE. WE

( I Nrrn PoS I NG ) MR.

MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

GIVE

WANT

US

TO

MR. LEONARD:

A MINUTE, WE HAVE

MAKE SURE---

JUDGE BRI TT :I
PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC.

F 2, O. lor 2tt6s
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PRECISION REPORTING'
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

LEONARD, I WAS .JUST GOING TO COMMENT THAT I BELIEVE

YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED IN MOVING ALL THE PAPER FROM YOUR DES

TO THAT OF THE CLERK. \

MP-. LEoNARD: THE DEFENSE RESTS.

(ornexsr RESTS AT 2:23 p.M.)

MS. \^'INNER:

HAVE A FIVE_MINUTE BREAK?

MAY I REQUEST THAT T'/E

JUDGE PHiLLIPS: WE WILL TAKE A FIVE-

MINUTE RECESS.

(THE pRocEEDING wAS RECESSED AT 2:25 p.M., To

RECONVENE AT 2:30 P.M., THIS SAME DAy.)

l-t P. O. Bor 2lra!
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F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 2:38 P.

MS. WI NNER :

BERNARD GROFMAN.

THE PLAINTIFFS CALL

(wHEREUPoN,

BERNARD N. GROFMAN

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, AND HAVING BEEN

PREVIOUSLY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS

nOUIOWS: )

REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAMINATION
2:38 P.M.

BY MS. I,JINNER:

A DR. GROFMAN, I BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL UNDER

OATH?

A VES. THAT IS cORRECT.

a WERE you PRESENT IN rr-rr couRTRooM WHEN DR.

HOFELLER TESTIFIED CO;;ERNING EXHIBITS NUMBER 16(E) RNO

16(F)?

A YE S; I l,rAS .

A DID DR. HOFELLER, IN FACT, POINT OUT AN ERROR

IN THOSE EXHIBITS?

A YES; HE DID.

A DOES THAT ERROR CHANGE ANY OF THE TESTIMONY

t

WHICH YOU PREVIOUSLY GAVE IN THIS CASE?

A NO; IT DOES NOT.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC, MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

- 
P. O. lor 2!tct

LJ Rr|t.tD. taonh C.rollm 2rolr



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PREGISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX. ARIZONA

MS. WINNER:

QUE ST I ONS.

MS. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

SARAH STEVENSON.

MR. LEONARD:

MS. WINNER:

MR. LEONARD:

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.

(wrrrurss ExcusED. )

I DONIT HAVE ANY OTHER

I HAVE NO QUESTIONS.

THE PLAINTIFFS CALL

wHo ?

SARAN STEVENSON.

IF THE COURT PLEASE, I A

GOING TO OBJECT. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT NAME BEFORE

COUNSEL UTTERED IT HERE RIGHT AT THIS MOI.,IENT.

JUDGE BRITT:

PRE-TRIAL ORDER?

IS SHE LISTED IN THE

MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. NEITHER OF THE

TWO REBUTTAL WITNESSEs ARE LISTE; IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER

FOR THE REASON THAT WE DIDNIT--FIRST OF ALL, MALACHI

GREEN WAS NOT LISTED IN THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER.

TJUDGE BRITT:

OBJECTED ON THAT GROUND.

wELL, YOU COULD HAVE

MS. 1^'INNER: THAT IS RIGHT. BUT WE

DID NOT OB.'ECT TO T4R. GREEN. BUT BECAUSE WE DID NOT

KNOW ABOUT HIM UNTIL AFTER THE PRE.TRIAL CONFERENCE AND

BECAUSE OF THE COURTI S ORDER, WE FELT CONSTRAINED NOT TO

TALK TO HIM.- WE DID NOT KNOW I,IHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

BEFORE HE TESTIFIED.

THIS IS REBUTTAL EVIDENCE SPECIFICALLY TO WHAT

MALACHI GREEN TESTIFIED WHICH WE DID NOT PREDICT.

*JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MEAN FoR THE WHOLE

RANGE OF HIS TESTIMONY?

MS. WINNER: NO, SIR. AND IT IS ONLY

SPECIFICALLY TO IMPEACH HIS CREDIBILITY.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I BELIEVE SIMPLY ON

A TIT-FOR-TAT BASIS IN CONNECTION WITH ANOTHER REBUTTAL

WITNESS, I RULEDTHAT WE WOULD HEAR THE TESTIMONY FROM

THE DEFENDANTSI SIDE TO RESPOND TO BELFIELD'S UNANNOUNCED

TESTIMONY.

AND WE WI LL

THE UNDERSTANDING THAT

A VERY LIMITED PART OF

THE SAME WITH THIS WITNESS ON

TESTIMONY IS TO BE LIMITED TO

GREENI S TESTIMONY.

,rr, sIR.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT

GREEN WAS NOT LISTED?

GREEN IS LISTED IN THE

DO

HER

MR.

COUNSELI S

PRE-TRIAL

MS. WI NNER:.

JUDGE PHI LLIPS:

REPRESENTATION THAT

MR. LEONARD:

ORDER.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: IS HIS TESTIMONY LISTED?

MR. LEONARD: THE PR5-TRIAL ORDER SAID:

H.'..TO ESTABL,ISH"'THE FACT' THAT BLACK PEOPLE

HAVE FULL ACCESS TO THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY AND THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO

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(XX

a

ELECT CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICE.'' \

MS. WINNER: YOUR HONOR, MR. GREEN WAS

ADDED TO THE PRE-TRIAL AND THE AMENDED PRE-TRIAL ORDER

AFTER THE PRE-TRIAL CONFERENCE. AND THERE IS A NOTE IN.

THE PRE-TRIAL ORDER TFIAT WE OBJECT TO THE ADDITION OF HIM

TO THE LIST.

TJUDGE PHI LLIPS: WELL, LET' S HEAR THIS

WITNESS.

(wne REU PoN,

SARAH BELLE STEVENSON

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY SWORN, AND

TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: )

REBUTTAI DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. GUINIER:

a woulD You 
.STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?

A MY NAME IS SARAH BELLE STEVENSON.

a WHERE DO YOU LM, MS. STEVENSON?

A I LIVE AT 2OOO ST. PAUL STREET IN CHARLOTTE.

A HOI^J LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?

A APPROXIMATELY 40 YEARS.'

a Do You HoLD ANY ELECTED POSITIONS IN CHARLOTT

A YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLEN-

BURG SCHOOL BOARD.

A ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY POLITICAL ORGANIZATI

PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX ARIZONAF 2. O. lor 2ttei

lJ n UCr, Nod C.roliM 2t!tl



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCBIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

IN CHARLOTTE?

A

CAUCUS.

YES. I AM A MEMBER OF THE BLACK POLITICAL

A WERE YOU PRESENT AT A MEETING OF THE BLACK

POLITICAL CAUCUS ON JULY 23RD, 1983?

YES; I WAS.

WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT MEETING?

THE CAUCUS WAS CONDUCTING A VOTER INFORMATION

AND REGISTRATION WORKSHOP. AT THE END OF THE AGENDA, THE

CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS, MS. REBECCA TAYLOR, ASKED FOR

SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT A RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS

BECAUSE SHE HAD HAD SOME QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF THE

CAUCUS CONCERNING THE COURT TRIAL ON SINGLE-MEMBER

DISTRiCTS HERE IN RALEIGH.

AND SHE WANTED TO BRING THAT BEFORE THE GROUP

FOR. FURTHER CLARIFICATION AND POSSIBLY SOME ACTION.

A WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE CHAIR ASKED FOR SPE-

CIAL PERMISSION TO RAISE TI-TIS ISSUE?

THAT PERMISSION WAS GRANTED. THE CHAIRMAN

PROCEEDED TO PRESENT ROBERT DAVIS, WHOM SHE HAD APPOINTED

TO CHAIR A COMMITTEE TO LOOK OVER THE RESOLUTION. MR.

DAVIS PRESENTED THE RESOLUTION TO THE BODY. THERE WAS

SOME DISCUSSIOI'I AND SOME CORRECTIONS.

FINALLY, THE CHAIRMAN CALLED FOR A VOTE.

THERE WAS AN AFFIRMATIVE VOTE--VOICE VOTE. I CALLED FOR

A

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P. O. lor 2tlil

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX. ARIZONA

A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE OF---

q (TNTCRPOSTruE) 'COULD I INTERRUPT YOU JUST FOR

A SECOND?

A YES.

A . YOU SAID THAT MR. DAVIS WAS ASKED TO PRESENT

THE RESOLUTION. DID HE READ A RESOLUTION?

A HE READ A RESOLUTION IN ITS ENTIRETY.

MS. GU IN I ER: MAY I APPROACH THE

W I TNESS ?

JUDGE PHI LLI PS : YES.

BY MR. GUINIER:

A I SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFI-

CATION PURPOSES AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 88 AND ASK IF YOU

CAN IDENTIFY THAT?

(pUINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS

,O**" FOR IDENTIFICATION. )

A YES; I CAN.

a WHAT IS THAT? _

A THIS IS THE RESOLUTION PASSED BY THE CHARLOTTE

BLACK pOLITICAL CAUCUS ON SATURDAY, JULy 23RD,1ggr.

A IS THAT THE RESOLUTION THAT MR. DAVIS READ?

A YES; IT I S.

a Not^t, You SAID THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS PASSED.

HOW WAS THE VOTE TAKEN?

A THE VOTE WAS TAKEN BY VOICE FIRST. I ASKED

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FOR A SHOW OF HANDS BECAUSE I STATED THAT I FELT THIS

WAS AN IMPORTANT MATTER. THE CHAIR THEN ASKED FOR A

SHOT'/ OF HANDS. EVERYONE IN THE ROOM THAT I AM A\^'ARE OF

VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION BY RAISING THEIR HAND.

A .WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THIS MEETING?

A HE WAS..

A WHERE WAS HE SEATED IN COMPARISON TO WHERE YOU

WERE SEATED?

A DIRECTLY ACROSS THE ROOM FROM ME.

A DID YOU SEE HIM WHILE THE VOTING WAS TAKING

PLACE?

A YES; I DID.

A DID YOU SEE HIM VOTE?

A YES; I DID.

a Hol,J DrD HE VOTE?

, A HE VOTED ''YES'I BY BNISINE HIS HAND.

A AT THAT MEETING, DID MALACHI GREEN TAKE ANY

POSITION IN OPPOSITION TO SJNGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS?

A NO; HE DID NOT.

MS. GUINIER:

(pausr. )

MAYIHAVEAMINUTE?

I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: MR. LEONARD?

REBUTTAL CROSS EXAM II.IAT I ON
2:45 P.M.

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.15t1
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. 601 2116l

lJ R.l.lcn, Noil c.roalm 2?!rr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA t. O. aor 2lla

lJ thbteh. Nom C..oiln. ,otl

BY MR. LEONARD:

a MS. STEVENSON, DO yOU KNOW REBECCA TAYLOR?

A YES; I DO.

a IS SHE IN THE COURTROOM TODAY?

A .YES; S,HE IS.

MR. LEoNARD: IF THE CoURT PLEASE, I

WANT TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT--WOULD MS. TAYLOR STAND

UP, PLEASE? I AM GOING TO ASK THE COURT TO INSTRUCT THIS

LADY NOT TO LEAVE THIS COURTROOM. THIS IS A SURPRISE TO

ME. AND I MAY WANT TO CALL HER AS A WITNESS.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, I DONIT BELIEVE WE

WILL HAVE TO INSTRUCT HER. IF WE SEE HER LEAVE, WE WILL

TAKE ACTION.

BY MR. LEONARD:

a MS. STEVENSON, DO YOU KNOW WHO DRAFTED THE

RESQLUTION THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE CAUCUS THAT MORNING?

A NO; I DO ft,OT.

A DID YoU SEE THE oRIGINAL DRAFT?

A YES; I DID.

A WAS IT HANDWRITTEN?

A YES; IT WAS.

a You DIDNr T RECOGNIZE THE HAr'{DWRITING?

A NO; I DID NOT.

A DO YOU KNOW A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF

FE RGUSON ?



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES; I DO.

A IS HE A LAWYER IN CHARLOTTE?

A YES; HE IS.

A DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS A LAW PARTNER ASSOCIATED

I I,I THE PRACT I CE OF LAW W I TH MS . W I NNER ?

A YES.

a Do you KNow WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS MR. FERGUSON

WHO BROUGHT THAT RESOLUTION TO THE CAUCUS?

A I DO NOT. MR. FERGUSON WAS NOT AT THE MEETIN

A YOU DIDNI T SEE. HIM AT ALL THAT MORNING?

A NO; I DID NOT.

a How Do You KNow THAT HE DRAFTED THE RESOLU-

TION?

A I DO NOT KNOW. I DID NOT SAY HE DID.

MR. LEONARD: WELL, I F THE COURT PLEAS

I AM GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY AS BEING

TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE AND TO THIS TRIAL. MS.

WINNER IS THE ONE WHO RAISED ON CROSS-EXAMINATION WITH

MALACHI GREEN THE ISSUE OF THE \,ULY 23RD, 1983, MEETING.

I OB.JECTED AT THE TiME THAT WHAT HAPPENED TEN

DAYS PRIOR TO THIS TRIAL WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF

SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS IS HARDLY RELEVANT.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: WE }.,ILL OVERRULE THE

OB.JECTION. AND WE I.JILL CONSIDER CAREFULLY THE RELEVANCE

OF THE TESTIMONY.

F l. O. lor 2at6
LJ Rd.lt,r, xodh c.rclil ttlrr



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XX

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PI{OENIX, ARIZONA

BY MR. LEONARD:

a Do you KNow wHo BRoUGHT THE HANDWRITTEN

RESOLUTION TO THE MEETING THAT DAY?

A NO; I DO NOT.

. MR. LEONARD:

QUESTIONS.

I HAVE NO FURTHER

.,UDGE PHI LL I PS : DO YOU HAVE ANYTH I NG ?

MS. GUINIER: NO REDIRECT.

EX,\MINATION 2:49 P.M.

BY .JUDGE . PHI LL I PS :

a LEr me ASK you, MA'AM: wAS THE RESoLUTIoN

PRESENTED T'IITH ANY DISCUSSION OF THE FACT THAT A COURT

CASE INVOLVING THIS MATTER WAS COMING UP?

A YES. IT WAS MENTIONED.

. a wHo MENTIONED IT?

A I BELIEVE 
"'U 

CHAIRMAN OF THE CAUCUS.

A IN WHAT CONI.IECTTON DID THE CHAIRMAN MENTION

THE COURT CASE THAT WAS COMING UP?

A THE CHAIRMAN ANNOUNCED THAT SHE HAD HAD SOME

CALLS FROM MEMBERS OF THE CAUCUS ASKING HER IF THE CAUCU

HAD PLANNED TO TAKE A STAND ON THE SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICT

ISSUE.

A I N THAT CONN ECT I ON, THEN, I T I.JAS MENT I ONED

THAT THE COURT CASE WAS COT4I NG UP?

a P. O.8or 2al6
lJ R.btch. Noarr C.roth ?'!tr



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A I AM NOT SURE. I DONTT REMEMBER SPECTFICALLb

YOUR HONOR.

.JUDGE PH I LL I PS : ALL R I GHT. THANK YOU

VERY MUCH.

EXAMINATION 2:49 P.M.

BY JUDGE DUPREE:

A WERE YOU AWARE THAT THE COURT CASE WAS PENDING

HERE ?

A YES, S IR

a AND THAT IT WAS COMING ON FOR TRrAL?

A YES, SIR.

A WAS THIS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED MEETING OF THE

CAUCUS OR WAS IT A SPECIAL CALLED MEETING?

A IT WAS A REGULARLY SCHEDULED I./ORKSHOP OF THE

CAUCtJS.

a IT WOULD nOra MET REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THIS

CASE WAS ON THE DOCKET FOR TRIAL OR ANYTHING?

A YES, SIR. IT HAD BEEN PLANNED.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I ASK ONE OTHER

QUESTION?

REBUTTAL RECROSS EXAMINATION
2:50 P. M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING, HOWEVER, WAS

PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE. RATEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAF P. O. Bor 2tl(t

lJ nd.hrr Noffi C.rClm 27Grr



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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. AAAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 976.4571

Pt'loENtx, ARtzoNA

SPECIFICALLY TO DISCUSS VOTER REGISTRATION; WAS IT NOT?

A THAT IS CORRECT.

A YOU DIDNIT HAVE AT THAT MEETING AN AGENDA WIT

A RANGE OF ISSUES TO DEBATE; DID YOU?

A . NO, SIR. BUT I STATED THAT THE CHAIRMAN ASKED

FOR SPECIAL PERMISSION TO PRESENT THIS ISSUE.

A AND THIS WAS AT THE END OF THE MEETING?

A YES.

I4R. LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUEST I ONS .

L,UDGE PHI LLIPS: THANK YOU.

MR. LEONARD: I F THE COURT PLEASE, I AM

GOING TO MOVE TO STRIKE ALL THIS TESTIMONY, INCLUDING

THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MALACHI GREEN ON THIS TSSUE. I

THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT AS A

RESULT OF THIS LAWSUIT THIS ORGANIZATION WAS ASKED TO GET

INTO ISSUE NOW .JUST 11 DAYS AGO.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: . MR. LEONARD, WE WILL OVER

RULE THE OBJECTION. AND I,'E UNDERSTAND BASICALLY YOUR

OB.JECTION.

(wrrruess EXcusED. )

MS. VJINNER: YOUR HONOR, WE DO NOT

OFFER THIS TESTIMONY FOR ANY OF ITS SUBSTANTIVE VALUE,

BUT SIMPLY TO IMPEACH MR. GREEN.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER

A 2. O. lor 2alttl
lJ i-h,r, Xc.rh C.EID tTart



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W I TNESSES ?

MS. GUINIER: YES. WE CALL REBECCA S.

TAYLOR.

(wneR r uPoN,

REBECCA S. TAYLOR

WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL, DULY S\^IORN, AND

TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS: )

REBUTTAL DIRECT EXAI.4INATION
2:51 P. M.

BY MS. GUINIER.:

A WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME, PLEASE?

A REBECCA STURGIS TAYLOR.
I

a WHERE DO YOU LIVE, MS. TAYLOR?

A I LIVE AT 2645 LASALLE STREET IN CHARLOTTE,

NORTH CAROLINA.

A HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHARLOTTE?

A I HAVE LIVED IN CHARLOTTE 52 YEARS TODAY.

A ARE YOU THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BLACK POLITICAL

CAUCUS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY?

A YES; I AM.

A HOI,J LONG HAVE YOU BEEN THE CHAIRMAN?

A TWO YEARS.

A HAS THE CAUCUS DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF SINGLE-

MEMBER DISTRICTS FOR THE LEGISLATURE DURING THE PERIOD

THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CHAIR?

PRECISION REPOBTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36t9 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONAF ,. O. lor 2alct
lJ R.ara,r raor0r crornr 2ratr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

!4ar,,A YES.

A APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY TIMES?

A OH, APPROXIMATELY FOUR TIMES--FOUR OR FIVE

TIMES.

A DID THAT ISSUE COME UP ON JULY 23RD AT A

MEETING OF THE CAUCUS?

A YES.

A ARE YOU THE OFFICIAL RECORDKEEPER FOR THE

CAUCUS ?

A YES. I KEEP THE STGN-IN RECORD.

a THE SIGN-IN RECORD?

A UH-HUH.

A THIS IS A RECORD OF WHAT?

A OF PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THE MEETINGS.

A DO YOU ALSO KEEP A RECORD OF VOTES THAT ARE

TAKEN AT }4EETINGS?

A ONLY WHEN 

.IT 
IS OTHER THAN A VOICE VOTE.

a Do you KEEP THESE RECORDS AS PART OF YOUR

OFFICIAL DUTIES AS THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE BLACK POLITICA

CAUCUS ?

A YES.

A WAS A VOTE TAKEN ON THE \'ULY 2'RD MEETING?

A YES.

A AT THE JULY 23RD MEETING? EXCUSE ME.

A YE 5. THERE I^JAS A VOTE.

F ,. O. &r 2.tll
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RATEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

a WHAT WAS THE SUB.'ECT OF THAT VOTE?

A WE HAD 27 PEOPLE TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE

RESOLUT ION.

a WHAT WAS THs RESCLUTION ABOUT? WHAT trAS THE

SUBJECT MATTER?

A SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTING.

MS. GUINIER: MAY I APPROACH THE

WITNESS?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU MAY.

BY MS. GUINIER,:

A DID YOU BRING A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN SHEET

FOR THE MEETING OF .JULY 23RD?

A YES.

MR. LEONARD: MAY I SEE IT?

BY MS. GUINIER:

A DID I JUST HAND YOU A COPY OF THE SIGN-IN

SHEET WHICH YOU BROUGHT WITH YOU FROM CHARLOTTE?

A YES.

A HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE LISTED ON THE SIGN-IN SH

AS HAVING BEEN PRESENT AT THE MEETING ON JULY 2'RD?

A 3t.

A NEXT TO THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE

PRESEI.,IT, D I D YOU WR I TE ANYTH I NG ?

A YES; I DID.

a WHAT DrD YOU WRrrE?

F t. O. tor 2tlall
l, i-aoh, Nort c.,cril 2?al



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, !NC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A I WROTE-_AFTER THE SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS

CALLED FOR, I VJROTE I^JHETHER THE PERSON ACTUALLY VOTED.

I WROTE I'YES.II

A IF THE PERSON VOTED?

A . YES. IF THE PERSON RAISED THEIR HAND, I WROT

IIYESII BY THE I R NAI'1E.

a How MANY pEOpLE VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTTON FOR

S INGLE-MEMBER DI STRICTS?

A 27.

A HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST THE RESOLUTION

FOR S INGLE-I4EMBER DI STRICTS?

A NONE; ZERO.

A WAS MALACHI GREEN AT THAT MEETING?

A YES; HE WAS.

A IS HIS NAME ON YOUR SIGN-IN SHEET?

. A YES; IT IS...

A HOW DID MALACHI GREEN VOTE?

A MALACHI GREEN VOTED IIYESII IN FAVOR OF THE

RESOLUTI ON.

I.4S. GUINIER: I HAVE NO FURTHER

QUEST IONS.

REBUTTAL CROSS-EXAMINATION
2:55 P.M.

BY 14R . LEOI.IARD:

A IS THAT YOUR USUAL M=THOD OF TAKING ROLL CALL

F P. O. Bd 2ti(l
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571

PI.|oENIX, ARIZONA

AT THE BLACK CAUCUS IN THE CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG

O RGAN IZAT I ON ?

A I DONI T UNDERSTAND IIROLL CALL.II

A DO YOU USUALLY TAKE ROLL CALL BY TAKING THE

S IGN-IN SHEET AND TJRITING 'rYESrr OR rrNOrr BEHIND PEOPLE I S

NAME S ?

A ONLY WHEN THERE IS A REQUEST .FOR A SHOW OF

HANDS.

A DO YOU SEE THE RESOLUTION THAT IS THERE IN

FRONT OF YOU? WHAT FORM WAS EXHIBIT 88 FIRST IN WHEN

YOU FIRST SAI,' IT?

I A IT WAS HANDWRITTEN.

A WAS IT GIVEN TO YOU IN HANDWRITTEN FORM?

A YES; IT WAS.

a wHo GAVE IT TO YOU?

A ATTORNEY M:LVIN WATT.

a WHAT LAW FIRM IS HE ASSOCIATED 'i',ITH IN

C HAR LOTT E ?

A THE CHAMBERS FIRM.

a '/.IAS MR. FERGUSON WITH MR.--l^lAS HE WITH l4R.

VIATT ?

A NO. I DID NOT SEE MR. FERGUSON ON THIS DAY.

a DID YOU QUESTION MR. V(ATT AS T0 WHY HE WAS

BRINGING THIS RESOLUTION TO YOU AT THAT LATE DATE WITH

RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF SINGLE VERSUS MULTI-MEMBER

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t, O. lor i,atalt

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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

DISTRICTS?

A NO; I DID NOT.

A DID YOU AND HE HAVE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT A

PENDING LAWSUIT?

A NO; WE DID NOT.

A DID YOU KNOW THIS LAWSUIT WAS PENDING?

A YES; I DID.

A AND YOU KNEW THAT MALACHI GREEN WAS GOING TO

BE A WITNESS IN THIS LAWSUIT; DID YOU NOT?

A YES; I DID

A AND YOU KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE A WITNESS FOR

THE, STATE; DIDN'T YOU?

A YES; I DID.

a I./ASNTT THE PURPOSE OF YOUR OFFI:RING THAT

RESOLUTION THAT DAY TO EMBARRASS MALACI-II GREEN?

. A NO. THE PURPOSE OF OFFERING THIS RESOLUTION

WAS TO MAKE THE ISSUE PLAIN TO THE CAUCUS MEMBERSHIP--

UNDERSTANDABLE.

a you HAD No iNTENTION TO TRy TO INTIMIDATE MR.

GREEN INTO TESTIFYING HERE; DID YOU?

A OH, NO; I DID NOT.

A DID YOU KNOW THE TRIAL WAS STARTING THE NEXT

MONDAY ?

A YES; I DID.

A AND THIS WAS SATURDAY MORNING?

F P. O. Lr 2'16
lJ fddelr Nodi c.ro{E 2,3il



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.36.t9 876.1571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

A YES.

a DID yOU TALK TO MR. WATT TO DRAFT A RESOLU_

TION LIKE THE ONE YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU?

A I CONTACTED MS. PHYLLIS LYNCH, WHO IS A MEMBE

oF THE CAUCUS. AND ALONG WITH MS. LYNCH, BOB DAVIS AND

MARY GILL WERE ASKED TO WORK ON A RESOLUTION FOR US. AN

THEY, IN TURN, TALKED WITH MR. WATT.

}4R.' 'LEONARD: I HAVE NO FURTIIER

QUESTIONS.

EXAMINATION 2 :58 P. M.

BY .JUDGE DUPREE:

A Do YoU HAVE YoUR MINUTE BooK THERE WITH YoU?

A NO; I DO NOT.

a THAT HAS GOT THE SIGNATURES OF---

A (tNreRposING) on, r nave THE sIGN-IN.

a THAT IS wHA; I AM TALKING ABoUT.

A OH, YES.

A HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER INSTANCES IN WHICH A

SHOW OF HANDS VOTE WAS RECORDED IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU

HAVE RECORDED IT ON THIS INSTANCE?

A NoT SINcE I HAVE BEEN cHAIR. THERE HAVE BEEN

INSTANCES, BUT NOT SINCE MY CHAIRMANSHIP.

A THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME IN WHICH IN YOUR

EXPERIENCE THAT IIYtrSII AND IINOII VOTES HAD BEEN RECORDED I

F P. O. ,or ttct
LJ taaaah. radi c..o{o. ,z!tt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THIS FASHION?

A YES--BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY

CHAIRMANSHIP THAT I HAVE BEEN ASKED FOR A SHOW OF HANDS

AFTER THE VOICE VOTE.

A THIS SIGN-IN SHEET, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, WAS

ONE PASSED ALONG TO YOU?

A NO. THAT IS ONE TI-IAT I STARTED WHEN I BECAME

CHAIRMAN.

A OH, YOU STARTED IT?

A YES, SIR.

a ALL RIGHT. yOU DON| T RECALL ANy OTHER ''yES"

OR IINOI' VOTE THAT WAS RECORDED IN THE MANNER THAT YOU

RECORDED THIS ONE?

A NO.

.JUDGE DUPREE: ALL R I GHT.

E X A M I N A T I O N 3:OO P.M.

BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:

a How LoNG HAVE YOU BEEN THE---

A (trurrnposINc) sINCE 1981--JUNE 1981.

A AND THIS IS THE FIRST MATTER THAT HAS COME

BEFORE T''E BODY DURING THAT TIME THAT LED TO TIIE TAKING

OF A VOICi: VOTE ON ANYTHING?

A A SHOI,/ OF HANDS.

a A sHow 0F HANDS?

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PRECISION REPORTING
ANO TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PI'OENIX. ARIZONA

A UH-HUH.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.

MR. LEONARD: I HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTI

REBUTTAL P.ECROSS-EXAMI NAT ION
3:00 P.M.

BY MR. LEONARD:

A MS. STEVENSON INDICATED THAT THERE FIRST I{AS

A VOICE VOTE, IS THAT CORRECT?

A YES.

A WAS THERE ANY DOUBT II,I YOUR MIND AS TO WHETHE

NOT THE RESOI-UTION WAS ADOPTED ON A VOICE VOTE?

A NO; NOT REALLY.

MR. LEoNARD: THAT IS ALL.

JUDGE PHI LLI PS: DID YOU HEAR ANY IIIICI'

VOTES WHEN THE VOICE VOTE WAS TAKEN?

. THE WITNESS: *O.

JUDGE PTIT I-I-T PS: SO YOU COULD HAVE WRITTE

'IYFSII AT THAT TIME? -

THE WITNESS: PARDON ME?

JUDGE PHILLIPS: YOU COULD HAVE WRITTEN

I'YFS'' BY EVERY NAME AT THAT TIME; OR DID YOU THINK MAYBE

SOI4E PEOPLE D IDNI T VOTE?

THE WITNESS:

WHO DID NOT VOTE.

t,tELL, trE HAD 0NE PERSON

.JUDGE PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.

OR

F P. O. lor 2.16
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JUDGE DUPREE: BUT THAT WAS NOT MR.

GREEN ?

THE I^JI TNESS : No; IT WAS NOT.

JUDGE PH ILLIPS: VEP.Y WELL. THAI{K YoU

VERY MUCH.

I'1S. WINNER: MAY WE ASK ONE OTHER

QUESTION?

REBUTTAL REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3:01 P.M.

BY MS. GUIN I ER:.

A AT WHOSE REQUEST WAS THIS RESOLUTION DRAFTED?

A AT MY REQUEST.

MS. GUIN IER:

MR. LEONARD: NOW, I F THE COURT PLEASE,

( T rurrRpOS I NG ) I,IRy THE

I WOULD---

MS. GUINIER.:

WITNESS BE EXCUSED?

MR. LEONARD: -. YES. YES. I HAVE NO

FURTHER QUESTIONS.

(wrrlress EXcusED. )

i AM GOING TO I4OVE AGAIN TO STRIKE ALL OF THIS

TESTIMONY. I THINK--I JUST FEEL THAT THE FACTS--THAT THE

ONLY CONCLUSION THAT ONE CAN DRAW FROM THIS ENTIRE

EpISODE OF.JULy 23RD, lgBt--TWO DAYS BEFORE THIS TRIAL

STARTED--IS TO INTIMIDATE THIS WITNESS. AND I DON'T

I HAVE NO OTHER QUESTION

PRECISTON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONAA P. O, &r 116:l

Ll ndd.tr ilodh CrCtt 2ntr



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.457'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THINK THE COURT OUGHT TO ALLOW THIS TO EVEI'I REMAIN IN

THE RECORD.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: WELL, WE UNDERSTAND THE

NATURE OF YOUR OBJECTION. YOUR OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.

YOU CAN ARGUE THAT TO THE HILT IN AN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE

ARE GOING TO ANNOUNCE VERY SHORTLY.

MS. WINNER: THE ONLY OTHER EVIDENCE-

PLAINTIFFS OFFER PLAINTIFFSI EXHIBIT NUI,tBER 88 INTO

EVIDENCE, WHICH IS THE RESOLUTION.

JUDGE PHILLIPS.: WELL, IT IS ADMITTED

WITHOUT OBJECTION.

(pIaINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 88 wAS

RECEIVED IN evTorruce.)

MS. VJINNER: WE ALSO HAVE PLAIIITIFFSI

EXHIBIT 89, WHICH IS A CHART OF THE VOTING AGE POPULATIO

OF COUNTIES WHICH I BELIEVE THE CLERK HAS. IT IS FROM

THE 19BO CENSUS.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:^ IT IS ADMITTED I^,ITHOUT

OBJ ECT I ON .

(pIeINTIFFS EXHIBIT No. 89 WAS

RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE. )

MS. WINNER: THERE ARE TI.IO STIPULA-

TIONS WHICH I THINK I OUGT1T TO READ INTO THE RECORD. AN

THEN WE HAVE HANDWRITTEN COPIES THAT WE HAVE SIGNED THAT

YOU CAN PUT IN THE RECORD. THEY ARE T.IOT VERY ARTFUL.

a P. O. lot 2!163
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PRECISION REPORT!NG
AND TRANSCRIBING, lNC. MAIN OFFICE, RAI.EIGH. 832.9085

779-3619 876.1571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

THERE ARE TWO

SIGNED WHICH I THINK WILL

RECORD. AND THEN I I^/I LL

COPIES.

.JUDGE PHILLIPS:

MS. WINNER:

STIPULATIONS WHICH WE HAVE

BE HELPFUL TO READ INTO THE

GIVE THE COURT THE HANDWRITTEN

ALL RIGHT.

ONE I S THAT:

'".. IT IS STIPULATED THAT THE MECKLENRURG

COUNTY NAMES OF CANDIDATES WERE ROTATED ON THE

BALLOT IN NEITHER THE PRIMARY NOR THE GENERAL

ELECTION. NAMES OF CANDIDATES APPEAR ON BOTH

PRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION BALLOTS IN ALPHA-

BETICAL ORDER.II

THE SECOND HAS BEEN TITLED IISTIPULATION TO CORRECT ERROR

IN GINGLES EXHIBIT 6(A). AND IT READS:

II...THE T4AP OF THE ILLUSTRATIVE SINGLE_MEMBER

DURHAM DISTRICT SHOUL; INCLUDE PRECINCT 54 AND

THE PART OF PRECINCT 18 WHICH IS AN ISLAND

BETWEEN PRECINCT-S 34 AND 39, AND ALSO INCLUDES

ONLY THAT PART OF PRECINCT 39 WHICH LIES

GENERALLY NORTH OF THE EXHIBIT STICKER NUMBER

1. THE LINE CUTTING PRECINCT 39 SHOULD HAVE

BEEN DRAWN ON THE EXHIBIT ON A ROAD OR ROADS

LYING BETWEEN THE RESIDENCES OF REPRESENTA-

TIVE MILLER, EXHIBIT STICKER I, AND REPRESEN.

TATIVE SPAULDING, EXHI BIT STICKER 3.,,

F t. O. Eq tllas
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

,79-3619 876.1s7'l
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND I CAN SHOW THE COURT WHAT ALL THAT MEANS.\

J UDGE PH I LL I PS : I.,OULD I T APPEAR oN A

DOCUMENT ,THAT WE CAN LOOK AT LATER?

MS. WINNER: WE CAN HAVE MADE A NEW

SMALL OVER.LAY FOR THE COURT I S COPI ES, I F THAT WOULD }4AKE

IT CLEAR.

L,UDGE PHI LL I PS : WHY DON I T WE DO THAT ?

MS. WINNER: IT IS A SIMPLY JUST A

LINE THAT IS IN THE WRONG PLACE.

iJUDGE PHILLIPS: WILL YOU PREPARE IT AND

SUBMIT IT TO COUNSEL FOR THE STATE AND SEE IF THERE IS

ANY OBJECT ION?

MS. WiNNER: I WILL DO THAT.

PLAINTIFFS WOULD ALSO OFFER THE DEPOSITIONS OF SENATOR

RAUCH AND REPRESENTATIVE LiLLEY.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: iHCV ARE ADMITTED wITH.UT

OBJECTION.

MS. WINNER: AND PLAINTIFFS WOULD LIK

SOME INSTRUCTION ABOUT THE CUSTODY OF THE LARGE EXHIBIT

MAPS.

MR. LEONARD: MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT TH

JUDGE t]RI IT SHOULD KEEP THOSE IN HIS CHAMBERS.

JUDGE BRITT: THE RULES OF THIS COURT

PROVIDE THAT ONCE AN EXHIBIT IS OFFERED INTO EVIDENCE IT

BECOMES THE CUSTODY--IT BECOMES THE PROPERTY AND IN THE

F P. O. Bor ltt(i
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CUSTODY OF THE CLERK. THAT iS I,'HAT WILL HAPPEN TO

THESE.

MS. WINNER:

JUDGE BRITT:

THAT IS FINE.

IF THE CLERK WANTS TO AS

PERMISSION. TO PUT THEM IN MY CHAMBERS, THAT IS ALL RIGHT.

MS. WINNER:

FURTHER EVI DENCE.

PLAINTIFFS HAVE NO

(pIaINTIFFS REST AT 3:05 P.M. )

.JUDGE PHI LLI PS : WELL, SINCE T^'E WI LL BE

COMING BACK TOGETHER, WE WILL NOT BID FAREWELL TO COUNSE

I WOULD LIKE, HOWEVER, TO SAY THAT ON BEHALF OF MY

COLLEAGUES AND ME WE APPRECIATE THE WAY IN WHICH THE CAS

HAS BEEN PUT ON.

AND IT IS A MATTER OF INTEREST TO CONTEMPLATE

THAT THE NEXT CASE IN THE LINE OF WHITE RICH AND BUXTON

LODGE AND SUMNER IS LIKELY TO TUNN ON HOW WITNESS MALACHI

GREEN VOTED IN A CALL MEETING OF THE BLACK CAUCUS IN

MECKLENBURG COUNTY. BUT ST.RANGER THINGS IN HISTORY HAVE

HAPPENED.

WE PROPOSE TO PROCEED FROM THIS POINT AS

FOLLOWS: WE HAVE AN ESTIMATE FROM OUR REPORTER AS TO

THE LIKELY TIME SHE WILL BE ABLE TO PRODUCE A TRANSCRIPT

BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY FIRM PROMISE ON IT.

BUT BASED UPON HER BEST ESTIMATE TO US, WE

PROPOSE WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS TO ENTER A LITTLE

F P. o. lor t'Statil
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PRECISlON REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RAIEIGH, 832.9085

779-3619 976.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

FORI.4AL ORDER WHICH WILL REQUIRE COUNSEL TO SUBMIT

PROPOSED FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND

LEGAL MEMORANDA IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PROPOSED FINDINGS

AND CONCLUSIONS ON A DATE SIMULTANEOUSLY WITHIN A TIME

CERTAIN AFTER THE COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE

TRANSCRIPT. WE ARE THINKING NOW ABOUT 30 DAYS AFTER THE

COMPLETION AND THE SUBMISSION OF THE TRANSCRIPT.

IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING FROM THE REPORTER THA

SHE IS AT WORK AND WILL BE ABLE--BUT I WILL LEAVE THIS

TO HER TO ASSURE COUNSEL.ON--TO PRODUCE THE TRANSCRIPT

IN SEGI4ENTS. SO IT WILL BE POSSIBLY COMING IN.

BUT IN ANY EVENT, THE TIME FOR SUBI,IISSION WILL

RUN FROM ]O DAYS AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE TRANSCRIPT

AND SUBMISSION TO COUNSEL.

WE PROPOSE THEN TO HAVE A HEARING BACK HERE

,'
IN RALEIGH, PRESUMABLY, WITHIN 1O TO 15 DAYS AFTER THE

SUBMISSION OF THE PNOPOSTO FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS AND

BRIEFS OR MEMORANDA. THE ORDER WILL PROVIDE, IF WE DON'T

FORGET TO INCLUDE IT--AND I WILL ADVISE COUNSEL NOW, IN

CASE YOU ARE GOING TO START WORK IMMEDIATELY--THAT IN

VIEW OF THE VOLUMINOUS RECORD WITH WHICH WE WILL BE DEAL

ING THAT WE WOULD LIKE THE PROPOSED FINDINGS TO BE KEYED

TO PORTIONS OF THE RECORD BY APPROPRIATE REFERENCE.

AND I WILL SAY TO YOU THAT WE ARE SHOOTING F

A DATE FOR APPEARING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN OCTOBER THE lOTH

F P. O, Aor 2ttct
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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING, INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

AND THE 17TH OR 1BTH OR THEREABOUTS. THAT IS OUR HOPE.\

JUDGE BRITT: I WOULD .JUST COMMENT THA

WE REALiZE THAT YOU I^'OULD WANT TO SUBMIT YOUR PROPOSED

FINDINGS AND BRIEFS AND EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME.

TI=TEREFORET.AN OUTER LIMIT WILL BE ESTABLISHED. WE HOpE

YOU WILL REALIZE ALSO HOI.I IMPORTANT TIME IS TO US AND

THAT YOU WILL MAINTAIN COMMUNICATIONS WITH EACH OTHER;

AND THAT IF YOU CAN SUBMIT IT EARLIER, THAT YOU DO SO,

REALIZING THAT YOU BOTH WANT TO SUBMIT THEM AT THE SAME

TIME.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS

FROM COUNSEL BEFORE WE ADJOURN?

(NO RESPoNSE. )

(TnT PROCEEDING WAS ADJOURNED AT 3:IO P.M.)

a P. O. Bor 2tlltil
tJ e.bhh, itonn c.rclm arclt



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PRECISION REPORTING
AND TRANSCRIBING. INC. MAIN OFFICE, RALEIGH, 832.9085

779.3619 876.4571

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

CERTIFICATE

I, JO B. BUSH, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT

THE PRECEDING 189 PAGES REPRESENT A

TRUE AND ACCURATE TttANSCRI PT OF THE

PROCEEDINGS HELD IN RALEIGH, NORTH

CAROLINA, ON WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1983.

THIS, THE 22ND DAY OF AUGUST, 1981.

/,
[/o B. BUSH, cvR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

- 
P. O.8or 2tt6:t

lJ i.ftEh. Nordi C.rorh 2r!!r

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